From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 23:41:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA12070 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:41:43 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA12055 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:41:39 -0800 Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA09381; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:40:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:40:33 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > > The answer: "yet it moves." EM does behave like this, even though no one > has come up with a good visual explanation of how such a thing is possible. This here is the key. The stuff just works. We were reminded days ago on this list that Maxwell's equations were created with an ether in mind. Ether theory came and went but those equations remained because they were correct! Mathematics is one level more "real" than the feeble, life-experience-based explanations we contrive to intuit the "meaning" of the equations. The math either works or it doesn't. It usually does. Errors in science are really due to poor understanding of the "meaning" of the equations, and making mistakes when extrapolating too far. Likewise, let us never be detered from theory simply because it corresponds to no imaginable human-sized contraption. Do the QM formulas predict reality? Good, then that's it. That's all there is. There's no good reason why electrons should behave anything like marbles and when a theory predicts that they don't, this is certainly no grounds for attacking the theory. So hence, questions about field and charge can be considered chimerical. It is never my intention to stifle speculation, but Maxwell's equations work very well whether understood to be representing ether-interactions or fields, or whatever. Ether theories had their flaws, and so do field theories (electron self-force, et al) but these are only conceptual models; maps which are not the territory. Taking these conceptual models too seriously is to commit the error of reification. There's an area in Hell reserved for reifiers, and I hear it's pretty hot. (But actually any extrapolation of a form of reification, and this includes inductions. Mathematicians are the only "scientists" that do not induce, which is why they're not scientists.) > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 00:18:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA18653 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:18:15 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA18629 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:18:11 -0800 Received: from net-1-248.austin.eden.com (net-1-248.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.248]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id CAA22230 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:18:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:18:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512030818.CAA22230 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Something I'm still thinking about: Vortex-L message traffic is too high >for some subscribers, and some may be interested only in vortex anomaly >research. Yes the traffic is too high....but there are a lot of things that interest me on Vortex...and I really value having the brain power of all the members available to help on problem solving and info gathering. Seems to me the best split would be into (1) Theories and (2) Experiments. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 00:36:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21561 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:36:36 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA21526 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:36:26 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-5.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-5.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.5]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA13390 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:34:05 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512030834.TAA13390 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:37:07 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Alter Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Nov 95 at 9:16, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: [snip] > try this...from my first book.... > > Calculate the capacitance of a sphere as large as our universe..... How do you know the size of the universe? > > farads = 4(3.14) eo r = 1.41 x 10 exp 16 farads > > Divide this value by the square root of the number of baryons in the > universe to get a quantum of capacitance. > > Qc = 1.41 x 10 exp 16 /(1.59 x 10 exp 79) exp .5 Isn't this essentially a calculation of the capacitance of a single particle? > > .......................................................................... > Next put the compton wavelength into the formula for resonant frequency The Compton wavelength is derived from the mass a a single particle. > > frequency = c/Wc = K/(6.28(eo uo) exp .5)) > > Qc = eo/K = 3.42 x 10 exp -24 farads > > Note the agreement. There is a relationship between the universe, capacit > ance and the compton wavelength. I think that what you have determined is that there is a relationship between the capacitance of a single particle, and its mass. This is not really all that surprising. Especially, if you think of that mass as consisting of resonant electromagnetic vibrations. > > .......................................................................... > Next using using some trig form a beat note composed of the compton wavelen > gth and its doppler shifter reflenction...You will find the length of the > beat note to be the debroglie wavelength. This is IMO correct. I can even tell you how resonance occurs, and where the reflection happens that leads to the beat note. (And it's all local to the particle, the universe has nothing to do with it :-)}}} > > Think about it..I have..and I came up with a lot of stuff. > > Frank Znidarsic > > Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 00:36:42 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21587 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:36:40 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA21501 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:36:18 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-5.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-5.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.5]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA13344 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:33:48 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512030833.TAA13344 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:37:07 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Relativistic Magnetism Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Nov 95 at 16:24, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > Subj: Relativistic Magnetism Section: Physics > To: Peter Unwin, 100063,244 Monday, September 18, 1995 12:01:57 AM > From: Frederick J. Sparb, 102021,3045 #202373 > > Peter, > > Doodling a bit more, I find that the gravitational constant, G , 6.67 x 10^-11 > can factor out to the magneto static value of 10^-7 (.02583)^2, where .02583 is > in > ampere-meters per kilogram. Thus a gravitational force in terms of magneto > statics > forces for say the earth on a one kilogram mass is: > 10^-7 x .02583 x 5.98 x 10^24 x .05283/(6.38 x 10^6)^2 nt. This kind of > doodling suggests that the gravitational field is a relativistic magnetic field > due to the time dilated currents in all material particles. The gamma factor is > inversely proportional to the mass. > The 19.68 amperes of current in the electron is dilated by a gamma factor of > 2.03 x 10^21, so it acts like there is an electron passing a point about every Could this be due to the rotational velocity of the electron? > .06 seconds. The proton by a factor of 1.1 x 10^18, or in inverse proportion to > the total mass of the sub units. This is consistent with the fundamental tenet > of the closer to c the less the mass. I.e. the proton is heavier, and rotates more slowly? > > One certainly would be hard put to give an electron enough energy to get a gamma > of 2 x 10^21(maybe the Supercollider could've done it). > > The only thing I can see is the two wire transmission line with unipolar pulses What is a "unipolar pulse"? Is this what you get when attaching a wire to one pole of a battery? If so, what are the special characteristics of a unipolar pulse compared to those of a normal pulse, that make it so desirable for this application? > moving down it at velocities very close to c, where an incremental manifest > charge of the line capacitance C and pulse voltage V might make a relativistic > magnetic field.This was discussed this in a previous note in regard to whether And what is a "relativistic magnetic field", (I thought all magnetic fields were relativistic). > or not such fields would couple through a Faraday Cage. > > I'm sure that the fields associated with a couple of masses would couple through > the cage barrier. > > Regards, Frederick > > > Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 00:36:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21559 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:36:35 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA21516 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:36:22 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-5.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-5.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.5]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA13386 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:34:03 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512030834.TAA13386 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:37:08 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Light speed Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Nov 95 at 18:21, Puthoff aol.com wrote: > Robin asks "if C is the group velocity of light, what is its phase velocity? > > In free space, both group and phase velocities are C. In a material with > dispersion (different phase velocity at different frequencies) then four > velocities can be defined: phase, group, wavefront, and I forget the other. > There is a nice book by Brillouin discussing this. > > Hal Puthoff > > Thanks Hal. In this case I see no reason why scalar fields should propagate faster than "c". Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 00:55:36 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA24703 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:55:34 -0800 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA24694 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:55:32 -0800 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA11434; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 03:54:13 -0500 Date: 03 Dec 95 03:53:47 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Message-ID: <951203085347_100060.173_JHB66-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill, >> put the coils far apart to give long time delay compared to the coil risetime, wind them with a couple of turns only, << Has this been done? If so, is the velocity of the "signal" equal to c, or something very different? Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 00:56:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA24890 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:56:28 -0800 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA24881 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:56:26 -0800 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA00739; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 03:55:07 -0500 Date: 03 Dec 95 03:53:51 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Message-ID: <951203085350_100060.173_JHB66-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert, >> pillows of the scientific ivory tower << ^^^^^^^ Sleepy again! Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 05:33:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA25807 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 05:32:57 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA25798 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 05:32:53 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.79 (eb1ppp15.shentel.net [204.111.1.79]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA02639 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:34:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199512031334.IAA02639 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:22:22 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951203085350_100060.173_JHB66-2 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Robert, > > >> pillows of the scientific ivory tower << > ^^^^^^^ >Sleepy again! > >Norman. > > > Thank you Norman, I was hoping someone would understand. :) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 06:07:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA29462 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:07:10 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA29454 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:07:08 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.73 (eb1ppp9.shentel.net [204.111.1.73]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA04345 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:08:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199512031408.JAA04345 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:11:24 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512030818.CAA22230 natashya.eden.com> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I like Scott's idea. theory-experiment Also can I help a little with the cost. I know someone is paying for this (the no free launch theory). I kinda feel if I use it maybe theres a need to toss a few coins into the fountain of knowledge. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 06:55:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA06766 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:55:26 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA06747 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:55:17 -0800 Received: from [199.165.120.36] ([199.165.120.36]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA11120 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:19:01 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 05:57:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Light speed Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On 27 Nov 95 at 18:21, Puthoff aol.com wrote: > >> Robin asks "if C is the group velocity of light, what is its phase velocity? >> >> In free space, both group and phase velocities are C. In a material with >> dispersion (different phase velocity at different frequencies) then four >> velocities can be defined: phase, group, wavefront, and I forget the other. >> There is a nice book by Brillouin discussing this. >> >> Hal Puthoff >> >> >Thanks Hal. In this case I see no reason why scalar fields should >propagate faster than "c". >Robin van Spaandonk OK, I'll buy that, even if it is unexciting. How about electrons moving in a conductor, though? Isn't there something sinusoidal about their actual motion, even though their velocity is greater than (1/Pi)C, i.e. about .6C? How's that for weird science? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 08:53:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA27069 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:53:07 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA27040 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:52:57 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06376 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:52:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199512031652.AA06376 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:52:30 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Alter Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 11:51:52 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:37:07 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Alter Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com On 27 Nov 95 at 9:16, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: [snip] > try this...from my first book.... > > Calculate the capacitance of a sphere as large as our universe..... How do you know the size of the universe? > > farads = 4(3.14) eo r = 1.41 x 10 exp 16 farads > > Divide this value by the square root of the number of baryons in the > universe to get a quantum of capacitance. > > Qc = 1.41 x 10 exp 16 /(1.59 x 10 exp 79) exp .5 Isn't this essentially a calculation of the capacitance of a single particle? > > .......................................................................... > Next put the compton wavelength into the formula for resonant frequency The Compton wavelength is derived from the mass a a single particle. > > frequency = c/Wc = K/(6.28(eo uo) exp .5)) > > Qc = eo/K = 3.42 x 10 exp -24 farads > > Note the agreement. There is a relationship between the universe, capacit > ance and the compton wavelength. I think that what you have determined is that there is a relationship between the capacitance of a single particle, and its mass. This is not really all that surprising. Especially, if you think of that mass as consisting of resonant electromagnetic vibrations. > > .......................................................................... > Next using using some trig form a beat note composed of the compton wavelen > gth and its doppler shifter reflenction...You will find the length of the > beat note to be the debroglie wavelength. This is IMO correct. I can even tell you how resonance occurs, and where the reflection happens that leads to the beat note. (And it's all local to the particle, the universe has nothing to do with it :-)}}} > > Think about it..I have..and I came up with a lot of stuff. > > Frank Znidarsic > > Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 We know the radius of the universe from the measurement of Hubble's constan t. The space telescope is to pin this value down to 3 significant digits. The quantum of capactiance is not a side bar..it is very important..it link s the size of the universe to the size of elementary particles. This was a riddle for a long time. Eddington came up the realtionship. that 1 X 10 exp 39 squared equals the number of protons in the universe. This value has essentually proven to be correct. 1 X 10 exp 39 is also t he ratio of the electromagnetic to gravitational force. These is a connect ion between the smallest and the largest. This connection, as per my raaso ning, is the quantum of capacitance. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 09:44:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA09943 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:44:40 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA09932 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:44:36 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06535 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:44:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199512031744.AA06535 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:44:11 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Some Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 12:43:33 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" In-Reply-To: <951202093246_100060.173_JHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com On 2 Dec 1995, Norman Horwood wrote: > >> Bill asks: > > The forces between two electromagnets at a distance are > > caused by "something," and if the current in one of the coils is > > suddenly changed, the distant one will respond after a time delay, > > implying that the "something" has a propagation speed and is not > > instantaneous action at a distance." > > True true true...if there was instantaneous propagation at a distance the original exchange force (electric gravitational) would conserve momentum. Due to propagation delays a single force cannot conserve momentum.. It takes time for the moved field to propagate outward...Additional e forces are required during the propagation interval. In general: 1. The electrical and the gravitational forces conserve momentum in a static system. 2. The magnetic and gravitomagnetic are induced by moving charges and moving mass. The addition of the forces produced by these fields conserves momentum in a moving system. These fields carry the momentum of moving charges (inductive reactance) and the inertial of . moving matter. 3. Momentum in an accelerating reference frame is conserved by a second induced field. In an electrical system this is the induced electrical field...In a gravitational system this is the induced gravitational field. field electrical = K di/dt field grav= G/ccr (dp/dt) This second derivative force carries the kinetic energy of moving matter. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 09:45:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA10048 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:45:04 -0800 Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA10038 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:45:01 -0800 Received: from [204.119.61.80] (ip-salem1-16.teleport.com [204.119.61.80]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA15157 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:44:54 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:44:54 -0800 From: Charles Cagle Message-Id: <199512031744.JAA15157 desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: singtech mail.teleport.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Snip >>Robert, your belief that there is no "the answer" is merely a fine way of >>your stating your lack of belief in progress. Just because you have >>intellectually given up does not mean that any other members of this >group >>are so disposed. Get a grip man and help. Don't give up. >> >>Best Regards, >> >> >>Charles Cagle > >Dear Charles, > >The meaning of my sleep writing was intended to express just the opposite. >I was, in all that ranting and raving simply trying to say that there is >no single answer, no "the answer". We live in an evolving universe of >knowledge, sooner or later we may find that we have to pull out a few of >the basic pillows of the scientific ivory tower. I mainly wanted to point >out that just because someone post something that may not seem logical or >even scientific, that the best path is to converse, not try and humiliate. >That person may have hit upon another, far better answer and if we scare >them away we all could forfeit being part of something grand. > >I am constantly amazed at the greatness of the folks that surface on this >list server. It is my pleasure to have the privilege of being in a small >way, part of this exploration. > >The "greek to me" part was a not so funny pun.- Atom n. greek for >indivisible.- > >I promise never to get up in the wee hours of the morning and input text >before I input coffee. > >Thank you Charles for being understanding. > >Robert Since you put it that way, OK :-). Charles Cagle Singularity Technologies, Inc. 1640 Oak Grove Road, N.W. Salem, OR 97304 503/362-7781 From fznidarsic gpu.com Sun Dec 3 09:49:43 1995 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11288 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:49:41 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05521 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:49:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199512031749.AA05521 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:49:13 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: MORE THOU Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 12:48:35 EST Status: RO X-Status: A -> VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:43:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: MORE THOUGHTS ON SPLIT Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com One thing I've seen done: manual forwarding of messages on a general discussion list to a more specialized list. A volunteer could read vortex-L every day and manually forward all vortex-physics discussions to a second vortex-only list. I myself couldn't even THINK of taking on extra work right now, but maybe some other kind soul on vortex-L has the time? Or is high message traffic not such an issue currently? I still cringe when I remember the week I subscribed to the Electric Vehicles discussion. 150 MESSAGES PER DAY! I used up most of my daily email-reading time just in deleting unread messages! Maybe we could set limits of one or two postings a week peer member....... . Frank Znidarsic From billb mail.eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 10:06:15 1995 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15280; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:06:14 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA04680; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:06:12 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:06:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser cc: VORTEX-L-OWNER mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: MORE THOU In-Reply-To: <199512031749.AA05521 power.gpu.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > Maybe we could set limits of one or two postings a week peer member....... . But some of us DON'T mind the high traffic. So maybe vortex-L could split into a "general conversation" high-traffic list and a "important messages only" low-traffic list? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 10:47:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25791 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:47:42 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25756 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:47:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199512031847.KAA25756 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by power.gpu.com id (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:47:15 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:47:15 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-0); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:47:15 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: fnrg: Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 13:20:45 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:21:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list mail.eskimo.com Cc: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: fnrg: EM waves In-Reply-To: <199512010155.RAA13286 ix8.ix.netcom.com> Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in > phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this > case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? > Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently > become longitudnal scalar transmission? This has always bugged me too. In mecanical waves, the potential energy and kinetic energy are out of phase, and the energy flux is continuous, not chopped up into half-wave segments. Why does EM not act the same? ....................................................................... It does...In the power plant where I do my engineering we have an item . called power factor. The power factor is the angle between the electrical and the magnetic components of the power sent down the power line. power flow = volts * amps * cos(angle between electric and magnetic) standing energy (vars) = volts * amps sin(angle bet elec and mag fields) I got a big whow when I applied the power factor idea to special relativit y. Draw a right trangle...a power factor trangle. / h / ] / ] / ] Y /(t) ] -------- X the angle(t)= arccos(velocity/c) Y = rest mass = mcc X = the traveling wave component X/c = the relativistic momentum h (hypotenuse) = the relativistic mass = m/(1-vv/cc) exp .5 What does it mean? I think it implies that if an either exists the wavefunctions of all matter must be phased together so that the sea of exteranl ZPE never appears as an energy flow (watts). The ether of ZPE apperrs as a standing wave (vars). Since all detection requires the measurement of an energy flow,the ZPE standing wave is undetectable. In the process of it all, special realitivity falls out. I admitt, I am not quite sure. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:00:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA29513 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:00:51 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA29495 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:00:48 -0800 Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA04799; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:59:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:59:41 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different!" In-Reply-To: <199512031744.AA06535 power.gpu.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A long, long time ago, whilst my mailbox was filling up with ~400 delayed quanta of wisdom, Chris Tinsley shrewedly asked: *** Start quote*** But I was entirely serious. The first question referred to the physical existence of magnetic and electric fields. Since, unless I am sadly behind the times, such 'fields' can only be detected by their effect on matter, then is it not a clear violation of Ockham's Razor to postulate them? If the only observed effect is one of matter upon matter, then to hypothesise a 'field' between them is unnecessary - unless one simply prefers the notion of fields, which I never heard as an acceptable reason for having something. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Newton was very careful not to hypothesise as to the actual mechanism of gravity, he just dscribed it. It is then perfectly fair to hypothesise a mechanism, but if that hypothesis remains untested, it is just so much hot air. *** End quote*** I don't believe his question was truly answered. Until, last night as I was composing my reply, this was posted, saving me the effort: On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > > > > True true true...if there was instantaneous propagation at a distance the > original > exchange force (electric gravitational) would conserve momentum. > Due to propagation delays a single force cannot conserve momentum.. > It takes time for the moved field to propagate outward...Additional e > forces are required during the propagation interval. In general: > 1. The electrical and the gravitational forces conserve momentum in a > static system. > 2. The magnetic and gravitomagnetic are induced by moving charges and > moving mass. The addition of the forces produced by these fields > conserves momentum in a moving system. These fields carry the > momentum of moving charges (inductive reactance) and the inertial of . > moving matter. > 3. Momentum in an accelerating reference frame is conserved by a second > induced field. In an electrical system this is the induced electrical > field...In a gravitational system this is the induced gravitational > field. > field electrical = K di/dt > field grav= G/ccr (dp/dt) > This second derivative force carries the kinetic energy of moving > matter. > > > > Frank Znidarsic > So you see, the real necessity for fields comes from p conversation. Some "thing" must "have" the p during the time it takes for the EM pulse to travel from one charge to another. Now, for Chris Tinsley's second question: ***Start quote*** On the matter of photons, again, it is well known that matter both emits and absorbs em radiation in quantised amounts. But how does that become the justification for suggesting that it must be propagated as particles? I am happy to accept that this second question is far more likely to have a satisfactory answer, but please may I see it? ***End quote*** The true answer will shock and confuse. There is much much confusion about what light and photons. I offer to you the following quotes from the book _Laser Physics_ by Sargent III, Scully, and Lamb Jr., 1974: "In our preceding treatments of the interaction of radiation with matter, we assumed that the electric field is classical. In most cases, this assumption is validated by experiment. There are several instances, however, for which a classical field fails to give experimentally observed results, whereas a quantized field succeeds. This is true, for example, of spontaneous emission, a phenomenon which was described phenomenologically in our earlier work (see Chaps. 2 and 7). Another case involves the 2s(1/2) and 2p(1/2) states in the hydrogen atom, which are predicted to have the same energy not only by the simple theory of Chap. 1, but also by the more sophisticated Dirac theory. In both cases, a classical electric field was assumed. Experimentally, the two levels differ by approximately the Lamb shift, 1 057 MHz. A fully quantized treatment of the field and atom system gives impressive agreement with the experimentally observed shift. Derivation of the fluctuations in intensity of a laser near threshold requires the quantum theory of radiation. In addition there are other problems for which the concept of a "particle", the photon, is either necessary or convenient. Despite a popular impression to the contrary, however the explanation of the photoelectric effect is not one of these (see Prob. 2-10)" p 222 The problem 2-10 asks the student to derive photoelectric effects using a classical field and Fermi's golden rule! I believe that Dr. Puthoff made this point, that the photoelectric effect is not dependent on the concept of photons, yet that effect is the only "evidence" for photons that has been issued in this forum. More battery of the popular conception of photons as beads of light: "Photons are quanta of a single (monochromatic) mode of the radiation field and are not localized at any particular position and time within the cavity. In fact, no satisfactory quantum theory of photons as particles has ever been given. On the other hand, the quantum theory of radiation seems to offer amazingly satisfactory accounts of a very wide range of radiative problems, and there is no real need to have a corpuscular theory of photons." p 228 Even further, they write: "Dirac has written in Chap. 1 of his book _Quantum Mechanics_, 'Each photon then only interferes with itself. Interference between two different photons never occurs.' This statement has caused a lot of confusion. It is known that two separated radio transmitters can produce interference effects, and, for that matter, two lasers can as well. If one thinks that each transmitter sends out its own photons, there is an apparent contradiction with Dirac's statement. The difficulty disappears when one remembers that both transmitters are coupled to the modes of the universal radiation field. A photon is simply a particular energy eigenstate of one such radiation mode" p 228 With this the authors completely demolish the popular conception of photons as these little marbles shooting all about in straight lines, bouncing off mirrors and colliding with atomic electrons. Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:23:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05577 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:23:14 -0800 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05394 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:22:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 18:46:54 GMT From: CRSM oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <12572 oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 39 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't deny that the textbooks leave an embarassed silence when discussing the rotating Faraday disk, but is the problem all that difficult? Consider the standard Faraday disk. There is a magnet on each side of the disk configured in an attracting manner so that the flux passes through the (non-ferrous) disk. The return path for the flux is outside the disk but must pass through the external circuit. Case 1. Disk in motion, magnets and external circuit static. There is only one conductor moving with respect to the magnetic field, that being the instantaneous path on the disk between the centre brush and the circumferential brush. Therefore a pd can be measured, and current flows in the circuit. Case 2. Disk and magnets in locked motion, external circuit static. An experiment will show that a pd is developed causing current flow in the circuit. (This is the form usually missed out of the textboks). No relative motion exists between the disk and the magnets, so no pd appears across the disk. A pd is developed in the external circuitry however. Don't forget. All of the return flux cuts the external circuit. It is this return flux cutting the wires of the external circuit that provides the EMF. Case 3. Disk and external circuit static, magnets rotating on disk axis. The experiment will show no current flow in the circuit. Why? There will be a pd developed across the disk as in case 1, but there will also be a pd developed in the external circuitry as in case 2 because the rotating magnets cause the flux to cut both the disk circuit with the return flux cutting the external circuit. The two EMFs cancel with no current flow in the circuit. Like Chris Tinsley, I have seen a number of ideas for increasing the EMF of a Faraday disk by various means. (I've thought of a few myself). They are doomed to failure because whatever is gained in the disk, is immeadiatly lost as a counter-EMF in the connecting wires. -- Chris Morriss From fznidarsic gpu.com Sun Dec 3 11:29:32 1995 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA07072 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:29:17 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA02003 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:28:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199512031928.AA02003 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:28:34 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: Re: fnrg: Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 14:27:57 EST Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: fnrg: Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 13:20:45 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:21:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list mail.eskimo.com Cc: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: fnrg: EM waves In-Reply-To: <199512010155.RAA13286 ix8.ix.netcom.com> Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in > phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this > case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? > Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently > become longitudnal scalar transmission? This has always bugged me too. In mecanical waves, the potential energy and kinetic energy are out of phase, and the energy flux is continuous, not chopped up into half-wave segments. Why does EM not act the same? ....................................................................... It does...In the power plant where I do my engineering we have an item . called power factor. The power factor is the angle between the electrical and the magnetic components of the power sent down the power line. power flow = volts * amps * cos(angle between electric and magnetic flds) standing energy (vars) = volts * amps sin(angle bet elec and mag fields) I got a big wow when I applied the power factor idea to special relativity y. Draw a right triangle...a power factor triangle. / h / ] / ] / ] Y /(t) ] -------- X the angle(t)= arccos(velocity/c) Y = rest energy = mcc X = the traveling wave component X/c = the relativistic momentum h (hypotenuse) = the relativistic ener=mcc/(1-vv/cc) exp .5 What does it mean? I think it implies that if an either exists the wave functions of all matter must be phased together so that the sea of external ZPE never appears as an energy flow (watts). The ether of ZPE appears as a standing wave (vars). Since detection requires the measurement of an energy flow, the ZPE standing wave is undetectable. In the process of it all, special relativity falls out. I admit, I am not quite sure what it all means. Frank Znidarsic .......................................................................... I am forwarding a 2nd message on the subject. I went back to my first book and found that I just posted (out of recall) something incorrect. Correction: angle (t) = arc cos (velocity/light speed) Y = standing wave = mcc X = traveling wave p = X/c = mv/(1-vv/cc) exp .5 h = relativistic energy = Mcc/(1-vv/cc) exp .5 All above can be derived from a right triangle and trig. hh = YY + XX In conclusion..the requirement that an either be undetectable requires it never appears as an energy flow. For example when you are running you can feel the wind..you feel an energy flow...the either never appears as an energy flow...it always appears as a standing wave...(a field of vars)...Standing waves are undetectable to one set in them... like the bird who doesn't feel the electric power when he sits on a power line. The phasing of distant wave functions together with local wave functions to meet the undetectablility (by setting (t) = arc cos (V/c)) results in special relativity...How nice....I like it... Hal Puthoff agree on many things but we differ on others. This is one area we differ. Hal offers a "cubic frequency" explanation for the undetectablity of the ZPE field. I offer a power factor solution. Of course, I like my idea better...or I would change it. Keep in mind special realtivity drops out of my simple minded solution. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 12:55:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA03395 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:55:13 -0800 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA03367 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:55:09 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:55:09 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199512032055.MAA03367 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:55:02 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Electromagnetics Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 1) A plane EM wave has electric and magnetic fields 90 DEG OUT OF PHASE in both time and spatial direction, not in phase. (Somebody made a mistake that is propagating out there.) 2) Discussing Chris T's question about EM fields: Consider a vacuum dielectric capacitor and a vacuum core inductor. Both store energy; that is why it takes time to charge and discharge them, and why one can extract energy from them. A many-turn inductor with a time varying current launches an EM wave. A typical inductor is an inefficient antenna, so people usually miss or ignore this fact. The same goes for typical capacitors. It is easy to come up with a mathematical description of electric and magnetic fields that conserves both energy and momentum. For static fields the energy is as already mentioned above, and the momentum is in the forces that they produce. For time varying fields the energy and momentum are propagated as EM waves and can be recovered at distant sites. It is all derivable in classical physics from Maxwell's equations, which were built to unify the experimental data available up to that time. They work exceedingly well, until one gets down to the atomic and subatomic scale. Then the theory has to be expanded to include quantum effects. The QED formulation works exceedingly well for all cases tested. True, it is only a mathematical description. But it works. Is this reality? What is reality? What is space? time? matter? Scientists push on those questions. Maybe someday we will know. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 13:04:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA06615 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:04:33 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA06602 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:04:31 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA23287; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:04:27 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:04:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Re: fnrg: In-Reply-To: <199512031847.KAA25756 mail.eskimo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > billb eskimo.com writes: > > > This has always bugged me too. In mecanical waves, the potential > > energy and kinetic energy are out of phase, and the energy flux is > > continuous, not chopped up into half-wave segments. Why does EM not act > > the same? > ....................................................................... > > It does...In the power plant where I do my engineering we have an item . > called power factor. ...but the V-I angle for AC power transmission is ideally zero, meaning resistive load, meaning V and I cross zero at the same time, meaning E and B fields are also zero every half wavelength on the transmission line (if no standing waves exist, of course.) But with a sound wave, the pressure waveform and velocity waveform are at 90deg for a propagating wave. When the pressure crosses zero, the velocity is high. If you multiply the wave of kinetic energy (gas velocity) and the potential energy wave (gas pressure) in a sound wave, you get an energy value which DOESN'T change with time. If you do the same thing with an EM wave, you get a sine function with twice the frequency of the E or M. In a sound wave the energy flows continuously, but in a radio wave the energy moves as 2F pulses. In an EM wave, the E and M parts are linked thus: the derivative of the e-field is proportional to the derivative of the b-field. So, the electric component of the wave is NOT caused by the rate of change of the magnetic component. Instead, an increasing e-field causes an increasing (rather than a constant) b-field. I accept that the math all connects together, what I'm looking for is some sort of analogy or visualizable concept so that I may better understand the math. For example, is there a third sort of field whose intensity IS proportional to the first derivative of e-field over time? It seems counter-intuitive to me that both the e and components can vanish, yet the wave can still propagate. As the wave passes you and a plane of zero-fields arrive at your location, why should the fields ever become non-zero again? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 13:38:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA17946 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:38:29 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA17903 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:38:18 -0800 Received: from [199.165.120.42] ([199.165.120.42]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA11655 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:02:10 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:40:05 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >Like Chris Tinsley, I have seen a number of ideas for increasing the EMF >of a Faraday disk by various means. (I've thought of a few myself). They >are doomed to failure because whatever is gained in the disk, is immeadiatly >lost as a counter-EMF in the connecting wires. >-- >Chris Morriss It seems like there is more of a problem than just induction in the connecting wires. That problem can be fixed by using two co-axial counter-rotating disks. Assume the disk axis and magnetic field is veritical. The inner conductive path between the two disks would then be vertical. The outer path might involve a small verticle loop (in line, not transverse, with the field) to fit a device in, but the net effect of the loop should cancel, except for the verticle distance between the two disks, so the loop should be equivalent to a verticle wire between the outside of the two disks. Now, suppose in the small vertical outside loop you include a radiating device, e.g. a light bulb, LED, microwave cavity (the magnetic field is already there), etc. The loop problem seems to be defeated, but won't it still take torque to produce that current? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 14:13:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28849 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:13:37 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA28825 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:13:30 -0800 Received: from [199.165.120.42] ([199.165.120.31]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA11737 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:37:04 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:15:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >[snip] >> >>Like Chris Tinsley, I have seen a number of ideas for increasing the EMF >>of a Faraday disk by various means. (I've thought of a few myself). They >>are doomed to failure because whatever is gained in the disk, is immeadiatly >>lost as a counter-EMF in the connecting wires. >>-- >>Chris Morriss > >It seems like there is more of a problem than just induction in the >connecting wires. That problem can be fixed by using two co-axial >counter-rotating disks. Assume the disk axis and magnetic field is >veritical. The inner conductive path between the two disks would then be >vertical. The outer path might involve a small verticle loop (in line, not >transverse, with the field) to fit a device in, but the net effect of the >loop should cancel, except for the verticle distance between the two disks, >so the loop should be equivalent to a verticle wire between the outside of >the two disks. > >Now, suppose in the small vertical outside loop you include a radiating >device, e.g. a light bulb, LED, microwave cavity (the magnetic field is >already there), etc. The loop problem seems to be defeated, but won't it >still take torque to produce that current? > > Sorry, when I wrote the above, I was thinking your goal was over unity. Just another of my typical blunders. It appears after re-reading you are simply looking to get a voltage boost. How about this: stack layers of pairs of counter-rotating disks, each disk of a pair connected by brushes (or some other contact) in the middle. Connect the pairs on the outside. Now for N disks in series, each generating V, you should get NV volts. Maybe this does you no good for your objective, though? If your objective is to to use case 2, i.e. magnets rotating with disks, to demonstarte something, my suggestion is of no use to you because of the counter-rotation. What *is* your objective? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 14:20:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00901 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:20:31 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA00882 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:20:27 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.155 (eb3ppp27.shentel.net [204.111.1.155]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA20844 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:22:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199512032222.RAA20844 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 17:24:57 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Electromagnetics To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512032055.MAA03367 mail.eskimo.com> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Then the theory has to be expanded to include quantum effects. The QED >formulation works exceedingly well for all cases tested. True, it is only >a mathematical description. But it works. > >Is this reality? What is reality? What is space? time? matter? >Scientists push on those questions. Maybe someday we will know. > >Michael J. Schaffer Dear Michael, I can only add that in my own experimentation I have often been able to bypass Maxwellian limits, but to this point have been stopped cold by quantum barriers. Such was the case in attempting to use a visible laser to extract a longitudinal ultrasonic response from a sample. QED predicted a problem at this visible wavelength and so there was . QED also allowed for a window at a longer wavelength, which when tested proved correct. Like children we need guidance when taking our first steps, but to grow we must mix that knowledge with our imagination and experience to boldly go where no one has gone before...(hasn't that one been used somewhere?) Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 14:37:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06162 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:37:13 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA06127 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:37:07 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id OAA02691; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:37:05 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:37:03 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: speed of EM between coils In-Reply-To: <951203085347_100060.173_JHB66-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 3 Dec 1995, Norman Horwood wrote: > >> put the coils far apart to give long time delay compared to the coil > risetime, wind them with a couple of turns only, << > > Has this been done? If so, is the velocity of the "signal" equal to c, or > something very different? The coils-experiment is simply a measurement of "c" using VHF radio impulses. I apologize for sounding like I know what I'm talking about, when in fact I'm making up simple experiments which I ASSUME have been done long past. I'm pretty confident that they have been done, but I don't know the details. The slow risetime of coils can be accounted for. If radio didn't propagate at C, wouldn't this greatly affect radar ranging, the GPS, etc? So everyone, who has done precision measurment of the propagation velocity of VHF radio pulses, and how close to C are the results? I notice also that I didn't really answer the question you asked, because the propagation of radio signals between pairs of coils is not necessarily a measurement of propagation velocity of fields. The experiment I'm imagining above is treating the coils as radio transmitters and receivers. But the situation is not so simple. Pairs of coils can also behave as transformers, and transformer action obeys different mathematics than do pairs of radio antennas. I think transformer coupling varies as the fourth root of distance, and doesn't obey inverse square law. And the fields are "connected" to the coils, rather than being self-creating propagating waves. So Everyone: has anyone ever measured the propagation velocity through a transformer with widely separated coils, and done so at a low enough frequency so that the system DOES behave as a transformer and not as a pair of radio loop antennas? And now that I'm talking about this, I recall another question I've always had involving similar things: when a magnet is physically moved, does the force it applies to an adjacent magnet propagate at C? I suspect this is not identical to asking if radio waves propagate at C. This magnet experiment is much closer to being a direct measurement of fields than is the experiment with the two coils. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 15:00:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14088 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:00:45 -0800 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA14077 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:00:42 -0800 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA12551; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:59:24 -0500 Date: 03 Dec 95 18:03:44 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: "Something completely different" Message-ID: <951203230343_100433.1541_BHG77-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To:vortex I really didn't want this to turn into a data flood, but I've found everybody's input helpful. I loved Charles' comments on both photons and fields. The comment that 'there is something in the space between transmitter and receiver' when a magnetic or electric field is switched off before the receiver actually sees it - so obvious in the case of an em radio wave, where I like to think of the magnetic and electric fields originating from the electric field between the ends of the antenna and the current moving in it - is very attractive as a proof of the existence of fields. Actually, I don't think it proves anything of the kind, but who am I anyway? I think I want the aether back, please! (Or a ZPF variant will do fine). I still wonder about that high-altitude c-invariance experiment. But wouldn't the aether wind show up in varying transit times of the Jovian moons? Only the component which is not normal to the ecliptic plane, I suppose. As to Chris' description of the homopolar system - yes, I see it pretty much in the same way. What I find fascinating about homopolar machines is that one can view them as an almost perfect demonstration of electromagnetism - I do truly feel that a 'kit' of parts could be developed to show how each variant in turn demonstrates some new aspect of em. Chris is right, they are not so much weird as confusing. People tend to be taught em in the more familiar world of the electric motor. What Chris doesn't mention is that each experiment produces more questions than it answers. What about cylinders, what about devices which totally enclose their flux, what about either with co-rotating magnets? One day I shall work steadily through all the variants, and produce a full list of the actual results. What adds zezt to this activity is deciding in each case how to design the devices so that they will give a yes/no answer - a qualitative rather than quantitative one. Here's an example of a homopolar motor, which I originally heard of from Bill Beaty (where else?). You shove two cylindrical high-power magnets down a copper tube, with like poles facing (use very strong glue here!). Pass a current through the copper from either side of the join between the magnets, and the tube spins beautifully - you just put wires from a battery to touch the sides of the tube, or put the tube on a pair of rails. In fact, you can try that with the wires fixed to the tube, the batteries free to move - and, as you might expect, the assembly does *not* try to spin. You can see with flexible wires supporting the brushes that the brushes bend backward as the tube starts to spin - action and reaction balance. As Chris points out, the external circuit is just as important as the 'internal' one. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 15:08:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA16629 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:08:56 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16585 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:08:49 -0800 Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA11871 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:32:44 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:10:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>[snip] >>> >>>Like Chris Tinsley, I have seen a number of ideas for increasing the EMF >>>of a Faraday disk by various means. (I've thought of a few myself). They >>>are doomed to failure because whatever is gained in the disk, is immeadiatly >>>lost as a counter-EMF in the connecting wires. >>>-- >>>Chris Morriss >> Here's an idea: (1) Obtain Neodymium ring magnets. One possibility for that is Master Magnetics, PO Box 279, Castle Rock, Colorado 80104, 1-800-525-3536. They offer various sizes at 27MGO. Two examples of possible interest: 1.25" OD, .75" ID, .1" thick, for $8.00 (4.20 qty 100), 2" OD, 1.75" ID, .375"thick, for $70 ($61 qty 100). (2) Build a bearing assembley that fits into the ring center, and mount the magnets on a shaft. The magnets should be insulated from the shaft. Provide electrical contact between alternate magnet centers. (3) Provide electrical contact between alternate outsides. (4) Complete the rest of the magnetic circuit with iron or combination iron and magnets. (5) Provide rotating contact to alernate magnets, via rubber wheels attached to rotating shaft running parallel to magnets on outside. Do the same with remaining magnets with another shaft rotating in opposite direction. Now the current flow should look like: --> <-- <________ Current Input V <-- --> V --> <-- V <-- --> Flux vertical, alternate disks rotate V in opposite directions --> <-- V <-- --> Note: V denotes electrical contact V --> <-- V <-- --> _________> Current Output What do you think? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 15:47:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA28234 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:47:42 -0800 Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA28198 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:47:36 -0800 Received: from nimbus.anu.edu.au (nimbus.anu.edu.au [150.203.126.21]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA29176 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:47:26 +1100 Received: by nimbus.anu.edu.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03763; Mon, 4 Dec 95 10:47:23 EST Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 10:47:23 EST From: daved nimbus.anu.edu.au (Dave DAVIES) Message-Id: <9512032347.AA03763 nimbus.anu.edu.au> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >... > I promise never to get up in the wee hours of the morning and input text > before I input coffee. > > Thank you Charles for being understanding. > > Robert > I find that promise a little sad. Some of our most creative thinking comes to us in our sleep - maybe all. I suspect that Charles would agree. I am reminded of the story of Salvador Dali going to sleep with a spoon in his hand hanging over the edge of the bed. Once he was asleep the spoon would drop to the floor waking him. He would then hold onto the image in his head at the time and paint it. The story might be apocraphal but the basic idea is valid. It is possible, with practice, to grasp images in your mind as you wake and trace back through them. I tried this many years ago with considerable success, I think. You never know though. dave From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:12:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA06087 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:11:52 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA06041 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:11:45 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.91 (eb1ppp27.shentel.net [204.111.1.91]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA24800 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:13:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199512040013.TAA24800 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 19:15:04 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951127105242_100433.1541_BHG125-2 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 03 Dec 95, Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> wrote: >To:vortex > >I really didn't want this to turn into a data flood, but I've found everybody's >input helpful. Dear Chris, In 1971 I wrote a short story in which an aging scientist who's life work was to decode the secret of the universe by first realizing the basic shape of the universe. The story was a bit slow, but at a point the professor notices that a drawing of a mobius and the symbol for infinity are the same. Serendipity follows and after a little drama and a love interest the professor makes the ascent to another level of reality. Here he finds that life is some type cosmic chess game. Now let me see, what was my point? Oh yes, this week I received a fax from a russian scientist. This fax was data on a new type of transformer based on a mobius. I plan to build this device next week and see if it works as indicated. It may be of interest to you since it claims to overcome a number of problems encountered in normal transformer design. I will let you know. Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:30:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA12432 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:30:43 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA12413 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:30:38 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.91 (eb1ppp27.shentel.net [204.111.1.91]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA25541 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:32:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199512040032.TAA25541 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 19:33:49 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: "Something" To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <9512032347.AA03763 nimbus.anu.edu.au> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >I find that promise a little sad. Some of our most creative thinking >comes to us in our sleep - maybe all. I suspect that Charles would agree. > Dear Dave, The answers to most of the more perplexing problems in my life have came to me in my sleep. I simply need to get back in touch with reality before I try to communicate with the rest of the world. A few nights ago I dreamed I was giving a lecture on the similarities of the US government and windows95. It went something like this... both were much bigger than needed, both insisted on more and better hardware before working properly, both offered you what someone else felt you needed, not what you really needed and both had evolved from a simpler form that had originally worked quite well before getting completely out of control. I woke and wrote the whole thing down, took 16 pages, what a nightmare. Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:46:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA17719 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:46:02 -0800 Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA17648 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:45:52 -0800 Received: from nimbus.anu.edu.au (nimbus.anu.edu.au [150.203.126.21]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05217 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:45:29 +1100 Received: by nimbus.anu.edu.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04201; Mon, 4 Dec 95 11:45:27 EST Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 11:45:27 EST From: daved nimbus.anu.edu.au (Dave DAVIES) Message-Id: <9512040045.AA04201 nimbus.anu.edu.au> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 11:32:56 1995 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 19:33:49 -0500 > From: VISOR globalcom.net > Subject: Re: vtx: "Something" > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 > Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com > Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Content-Length: 892 > > > > ... > A few nights ago I dreamed I was giving a lecture on the similarities of > the US government and windows95. It went something like this... both were > much bigger than needed, both insisted on more and better hardware before > working properly, both offered you what someone else felt you needed, not > what you really needed and both had evolved from a simpler form that had > originally worked quite well before getting completely out of control. > > I woke and wrote the whole thing down, took 16 pages, what a nightmare. > > Robert > And charging more and more for less and less? dave From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:50:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA19126 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:50:33 -0800 Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (0 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA19113 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:50:30 -0800 Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23630 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:43:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512040043.TAA23630 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 19:54:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: More St Pete data Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris wrote: >... >My own feeling is that enough evidence has been picked up (especially in the >'start-up' part of the test) that I personally would very much like to >replicate exactly what these people have done. If anyone thinks such an >effort would be utterly worthless, please could they explain why they feel >that. Yes. I think such a test would be a waste of time. See reason below. > ... >>From Dr Onoochin: >... > > Now we consider the balance equation > > P = Q/t = C(T1 - T2) ; (1) > >... > Now we should estimate possible error of the tests. Obviously, the > error for the equation (1) cannot exceed 1.5%. Therefore, 1.036 = > 103.6% is out of the errors range. > The assumption that the error in (1) cannot exceed 1.5% is completely unrealistic. The putative 3.6% excess is well within the error bars of the originally estimated. This is especially true since a simultaneous null balance was not attempted. In any case 3.6% is equivalent to a result of 0% compared to the original claims of the inventor. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 21:21:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA12623 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:21:15 -0800 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA12430 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:20:37 -0800 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0tMTLN-000MNXC; Mon, 4 Dec 95 07:21 EET Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:21:36 +0200 (EET) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, My opinion regarding some important problems of our discussion group: A. To split or not to split? The first symptoms of GIANTISM have appeared at VORTEX, it's obvious some 30-50 messages per day are not more commensurate to what really happens in the field. In my opinion, vortex is an opportunity for the cold fusion supporters to get information and to friendly discuss the data and theories from the field without the nuissance to be confronted with some wild denigrators of this Idea as at s.p.f. As at any group there are other related subjects and strings too and if we take account of what means to be serious ("the things or ideas have a core and around this core a halo; to be SERIOUS means to be focused on the core") the group could be split only in CF experiment and theory on one part, and history-philosophy on the other. If I want some really up-to-date data on CF- as the POWER GEN Patterson demo or Gene's conference I have to use the possibilities of this group but if I am interested in such problems as Chris' string about "something else" which can be translated as "is reality really real?" I prefer to read a few papers in Science, Nature, The Philosophy of Physics or a similar source. Anyway, the great success of this string had the beneficial effect to divert the attention of many from the sad fact that the St. Petersburg experiment was a genuine fiasco. It can be attributed to Potapov and to the Moscow-based Delovoi Mir specialized in selling Potapov's humbugs. However, this marvel of the postcommunist marketing advertizing- how can be so many inefficient machines be sold- needs an explanation. As well, an explanation is necessary for the use of a twice castrated Yusmar at St. Pete. Only a few of us have invested money in this affair, but almost all of us have invested hope, time and creativity. This is a CORE PROBLEM while the wave-particle duality wouldn't be solved here for sure. There is an infinity of stimulating subjects to be discussed here but if we do this we shall lose both effectivenes and efficiency. "Effectiveness is doing the right things"-in this case to focus on the essential problems of this very field. "Efficiency is concerned with doing the things right"-good experiments good discussion, reducing (at least 10 times!) redundancy. But everybody and his uncle knows that sermons on brevity and chastity are equally effective. If this splitting will be made, I'll remain at the CORE group. B. Onoochin's Calculus. Two great errors show that his error calculus is erroneous: a) He said: " the temperature is measured by each thermopair with accuracy 1 degree Celsius, however, because it is done in eight points, the temperature error reduce in (8-1) times i.e. is about 0.15 degrees" If the scale of the thermometer has divisions of 1 deg. you cannot increase the precision above this limit, even if you use an infinity of such measuring instruments; b) It is obvious that the temperature outside the tent cannot be measured with o.1 deg precision ( the data are 14 and 13.5 deg!) and it cannot be uniform, there are some places where the heated air comes out from the tent. How many % is 0.5 from 14? And, finally the value of efficiency of the electrical motor which is 0.7 plus minus zero is understated even for the most sovietic of the postsovietic motors. The best choice is to accept with courage and responsibility that we have a null result showing the very limits of the nullbalance calorimetry. And nothing else or more. Let's us focus on the future! C. Dieter's Scenario. An unpleasant subject, however Dieter has challenged me to "Tell me how the above is all wrong". Before telling my variant of the story (do you know the novel entitled "Alexandrine Quartet" by Lawrence Durrell?) I will tell that some things are very important for an inventor and I can give an example from my professional career, I have worked some 25 years mainly for a polymer suspension polyvinylchloride, I have a lot of patents and technologies in this field and I am known as the "Father" of the romanian PVC. But I am its Godfather to, in 1968 I won a competition dedicated to find a name/trade mark for the product, I proposed "OLTVIL". I have many publications but this one-word one is a real best-seller, it appeared more than a hundred million times on the PVC bags. It is OLTVIL in Romania and it's OLTVIL in China, India, Russia, USA, Japan, etc. Now, it's clear YUSMAR is YUSMAR in Moldova, in Russia, in Ukraine, in Mongolia, in China and Yuri Semionovich cannot accept that the machine should be GLUPE's in Romania, DIEBRI's in Denmark, CHRITI's in England or SCOTLI's in the USA-just to give a few possibilities. He will sell the licence and the whole world will manufacture YUSMAR's. Potapov invents a machine. It is really sold in thousands. The capacity of production is increased month by month. New factories are working in Belarus, in Russia, in Ukraine. The Chinese want to buy 2.5 million Yusmars. They get the licence. The former military factories are transformed in YUSMAR production units. But the Eastern market is for the time given insatiable. New clients are coming everyday. The performances are improved. The Russian NASA helps. New types are invented. A Moscovite scientist, Lev Gheorghevich Sapogin has a theory. Matter can be transformed in energy. Impressive! True or not? Who cares, a theoretical foundation is good for the business and for the prestige. Rumours regarding the over-unity performances of the machine arrive in West. A first group buys a Yusmar-1 lacking a few vital parts at the price of a Yusmar-2. They have no data and fail to get good results after 5 trials. An other American group sends an Egghead ( a very high title in the Rusian speaking countries) from Romania to inspect the Yusmars. The Egghead comes back with a nice Englishman and they buy a few cavitation tubes. Potapov likes them and gives them some essential information. Says he will give all the data when they buy the licence. Despite all Western-centric ideas, Potapov doesn't care too much about the American market (smaller than the Chinese). This second group also fails to get good results. However, Egghead believes he has understood how the machine works. He has a Cassandra like success with his predictions. His friends blame Potapov and conclude that anybody who buys a Potapov machine must be very naive. How can this crook messmerize the ignorant postcommunist masses? They try to buy a complete machine for an English company which seems to be specialized in heaters. Potapov plays games, he doesn't like this business. England will receive or manufacture YUSMARS not MICHBUT's! A new experiment is organized in Sankt Petersburg. Nobody understands (your friend Egghead included) how and why the machine is lacking a few essential parts. And almost everybody with the exception of Egghead decide to test the machine in a tent and not as a heater. Egghead is angry and predicts failure. The maximum appreciation he achieves is something like "perhaps some of his ideas are not COMPLETELY idiotic". The St. Pete crippled Yusmar is 1.036 o/u or not at all. A Russian scientist dares to say that null-balance calorimetry is not perfect. Who is? What is? December 1995: Academician Yuri Semionovich Potapov, inventor emeritus of Moldova travels to the US. A splendid opportunity to tell him that the YUSMAR doesn't work, to explain why it doesn't work and that therefore he is a... Dieter, that's my variant; you can ask our mutual friend Ben Filimonov too. It could be useful for you to get a company which will introduce the YUSMAR in Denmark and an other to do the same in Australia. D. Scott's YUSMAR. Scott Little wrote: "Peter would mind summarizing the things you think did wrong in my tests that prevented me from observing any detectable sign of Yusmar o/u?" Why not, but please don't send me on other planets again! 1. Your pump was too big for a YUSMAR-1, and by respecting the empirical piping rules of Potapov, the central opening was too large. It was not possible to adjust the central jet to the central vortex. 2. Your set-up was different from both variants seen at and described by Potapov; the first is that seen in many photographies and the second is that with the pump and the YUSMAR immersed in water. You had an open circuit and the gadget doesn't work in this way. 3. Unlike the researchers from Belarus and those from Energiya you didn't accepted the control of hydrodynamics by what I have called washerology- an essential part of the process. 4. (I don't remember precisely)-it seems your cavitation tube lacks the vortex-breaking plate, which is a must for the function of the recirculation tube. 5. Despite some very interesting facts discovered by you, the experiments have been prematurely interrupted and not restarted after you got some data from Potapov. 6. The most serious trouble- and this is valid for the Piantelli test too you do not have a working hypothesis and you didn't accepted to buy my working hypotheses: a) water/water cavitation for the YUSMAR and the necessity to maximize the flow through the recirculation tube. b) the necessity to assure positive feedback enhancement for the Piantelli effect which evolves step by step from one single active point and this process has to be protected; 2.5 watts is a mature phase. Don't be angry with me, please, for my advices. I have to ask you the following: 1) Make at least one Piantelli device more, 2) Isolate the Ni rod from the brass body, with ceramics. 3) Make a cooling/heating coil with a thermal carrier fluid around the body of the device. 4) Isolate the assembly well and put in a Dewar if possible. 5) Use more efficient methods of stimulation electric impulses (the mechanical shock seems to be of less efficiency, in any case I imagine it in the style of Woody Woodpecker-many rapid beats) 6) Try to work out the proper surface structure with deuterium and then change to hydrogen. 7) Please forget the 1994 paper and do not use any data of it! It's written exactly to deceive the replicators, a nasty trap! 8) Don't take as tragically serious the story about the secret surface treatment. It sounds like a fairy tale. You will find the solution. Let me help, please. All the best wishes from Peter! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 23:01:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA09442 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:01:15 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA09400 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:01:04 -0800 Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA12880 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:25:12 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:02:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Here's an idea: > >(1) Obtain Neodymium ring magnets. One possibility for that is Master >Magnetics, PO Box 279, Castle Rock, Colorado 80104, 1-800-525-3536. They >offer various sizes at 27MGO. Two examples of possible interest: 1.25" OD, >.75" ID, .1" thick, for $8.00 (4.20 qty 100), 2" OD, 1.75" ID, .375"thick, >for $70 ($61 qty 100). > >(2) Build a bearing assembley that fits into the ring center, and mount >>alternate magnets on a shaft. The magnets should be insulated from the >shaft. > >Provide electrical contact between alternate magnet centers. > >(3) Provide electrical contact between alternate outsides. > >(4) Complete the rest of the magnetic circuit with iron or combination iron >and magnets. > >(5) Provide rotating contact to alernate magnets, via rubber wheels >attached to rotating shaft running parallel to magnets on outside. Do the >same with remaining magnets with another shaft rotating in opposite >direction. Now the current flow should look like: > >--> <-- <________ Current Input > V ><-- --> > V >--> <-- > V ><-- --> Flux vertical, alternate disks rotate > V in opposite directions >--> <-- > V ><-- --> Note: V denotes electrical contact > V >--> <-- > V ><-- --> _________> Current Output > > > Another variation might be to build the configuration into a torus by creating a small angle between each wheel. As above, his would confine almost the entire magnetic field, but the current input and output would then occur at adjacent wheels, while the current flow in the generator would remain parallel to the magnetic field, except where acted upon favorably. Also, every other magnet could be stationary, so most of the torque could be passed to the remaining magnets via the central gimbaled or flexible shaft. What do you think? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 23:51:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA19883 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:51:30 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA19862 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:51:22 -0800 Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA13053 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:15:30 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:53:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As probably the least qualified and one of the newest members of the group I feel it is incumbent upon me to volunteer to shut up until a group more appropriate to my diversionary interests appears. I gather, from the relative size of John Logajohn's monthly archives, that you didn't have much of a problem prior to my arrival, and I have posted much more, and much more off topic, than is appropriate, especially for our friends who pay by the character. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks to all for your tolerance. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 23:55:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20497 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:55:01 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA20483 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:54:57 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA20475; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:55:20 +0100 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:55:20 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" In-Reply-To: <199512021340.IAA17455 head.globalcom.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 3 Dec 1995 VISOR globalcom.net wrote: [...] > Olaf Roemer thought he had a great idea. > Around 1675, while observing the eclipses of the moons of jupiter decided > that light did not travel instantaneously through space. The most amazing > thing here was a lot of people from then to now keep "agreeing" with his > idea. Might you be referring to Ole Roemer, the Danish astronomer? -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 00:02:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21796 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:02:04 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA21776 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:02:01 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA17412; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:02:20 +0100 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:02:20 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, please. The only reason I look at vortex-l is to read about these supposedly "o-u" gadgets, not new Theories of Everything, for which there are news groups aplenty. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 00:04:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22279 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:04:16 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA22265 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:04:13 -0800 Received: from net-1-167.austin.eden.com (net-1-167.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.167]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id CAA05033 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:04:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:04:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512040804.CAA05033 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: More St Pete data X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Page said: >> Now we should estimate possible error of the tests. Obviously, the >> error for the equation (1) cannot exceed 1.5%. Therefore, 1.036 = >> 103.6% is out of the errors range. >> > >The assumption that the error in (1) cannot exceed 1.5% is completely >unrealistic. I, too, was struck by Onoochin's statement above. Chris, can you please ask him to explain _why_ he thinks the error cannot exceed 1.5%. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 00:04:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22293 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:04:18 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA22278 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:04:15 -0800 Received: from net-1-167.austin.eden.com (net-1-167.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.167]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id CAA05039 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:04:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:04:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512040804.CAA05039 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Peter's advice for my Yusmar/H-metal X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, Peter. I really do appreciate your efforts (and I liked the egghead story...except the part about the tent which I think you have habitually misunderstood) because, at this point, I need some new directions for these experiments. >1. Your pump was too big for a YUSMAR-1, and by respecting the empirical >piping rules of Potapov, the central opening was too large. It was not >possible to adjust the central jet to the central vortex. My Yusmar is permanently equipped with an inlet cone which I depicted in the drawings I faxed you. Is that the "central jet" you would like to adjust? >2. I could go to a closed circuit. >3. Unlike the researchers from Belarus and those from Energiya you >didn't accepted the control of hydrodynamics by what I have called >washerology- an essential part of the process. I thought all the different-sized bypass tube orifices that I tried _was_ washerology. Please explain, then, what washerology actually is. >4. (I don't remember precisely)-it seems your cavitation tube lacks >the vortex-breaking plate, which is a must for the function of the >recirculation tube. My tube _does_ have the breaker plate. My tube has been modified at the very end, just beyond that plate. On a standard Yusmar, there is a fitting there that reduces the diameter of the tube. On mine, that reduction has been removed and a short (3"), full-diameter extension has been welded on. I have made my recirc port in the center of this extension and have installed a similar diamter reduction at the end of it. >5. Despite some very interesting facts discovered by you, the experiments >have been prematurely interrupted and not restarted after you got some data >from Potapov. His "data" didn't seem significant...could be my mistake. >6. The most serious trouble- and this is valid for the Piantelli test too >you do not have a working hypothesis and you didn't accepted to buy my >working hypotheses: >a) water/water cavitation for the YUSMAR and the necessity to maximize >the flow through the recirculation tube. Hold on, now. I have tried three sizes of recirc tube, one of which was considerably _larger_ than the size you recommended. Why do you say I didn't maximize this flow? H-metal experiment: >b) the necessity to assure positive feedback enhancement for the Piantelli >effect which evolves step by step from one single active point and this >process has to be protected; 2.5 watts is a mature phase. In my present setup, the Ni rod can start up a slowly as it pleases. My heater maintains it at any temperature you like (I've been using 188C because the patent says so). Any excess heat produced in the rod will raise its temperature. Do you think it is necessary for the first little bit of excess heat to cause the rod temperature to climb significantly? If so, please explain why. There is some evidence in the patent that it is not desirable to let the rod get too hot. >Don't be angry with me, please, for my advices. I'll never get angry with you, Peter...but maybe frustrated. :-) >1) Make at least one Piantelli device more, OK >2) Isolate the Ni rod from the brass body, with ceramics. Why do you think this is important, please. >3) Make a cooling/heating coil with a thermal carrier fluid around >the body of the device. >4) Isolate the assembly well and put in a Dewar if possible. In other words, switch to water-flow calorimetry, right? Why? I know that the patent mentions a thermal carrier fluid but surely that is an engineering detail that pertains mainly to a powerful chamber. Ed Storms personally saw the original apparatus in Italy and it does not have any liquid cooling. His description of it is interesting: There is a Pyrex glass tube that separates the Ni rod from the heater coil. Then there is an outer SS housing. There are thermocouples in the Ni rod, on the Pyrex tube, and on the SS housing. When loading the rod, the Pyrex tube is hotter than the Ni rod because the heater coil is the only heat source in the chamber and the heat must flow thru the Pyrex to reach the Ni rod. When the effect kicks in, however, the Ni rod becomes hotter than the Pyrex tube...pretty convincing, isn't it. >5) Use more efficient methods of stimulation electric impulses >(the mechanical shock seems to be of less efficiency, in any case >I imagine it in the style of Woody Woodpecker-many rapid beats) Yeah, I'm going to make a heater coil like P's so I can blast it with kV pulses (like he did). >6) Try to work out the proper surface structure with deuterium and >then change to hydrogen. Very interesting suggestion. You think the effect it is nuclear fusion, then? >7) Please forget the 1994 paper and do not use any data of it! It's >written exactly to deceive the replicators, a nasty trap! OK, Peter, this is a very important point. Most of the details about the appratus come from this original paper. You must tell me why you feel this way and, of possible, you must identify which information you think is faulty. For example, do you believe that his heater coil was 42 turns of 1mm Pt wire as is stated in that paper? >8) Don't take as tragically serious the story about the secret surface >treatment. It sounds like a fairy tale. You will find the solution. I hope you're right. What do you think about plating the surface with Pd? >Let me help, please. OK, please answer fully all my questions, especially where I have asked for an _explanation_ of your opinion. To some degree we are both flying blind and making it up as we go along so, if you want me to embrace your ideas, you're going to have to sell them to me. One thing in your favor: we're both on the same planet, now. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 00:13:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA24047 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:13:23 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA24037 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:13:20 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA21380; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:13:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:13:45 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: More St Pete data In-Reply-To: <951202215801_100433.1541_BHG66-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris is asking about the Graneau work and wants to contact Neal G. The latest paper of theirs I have is in Physics Lett. A 174 (1993) 421, "Ampere force calculation for filament fusion experiments". It refers to three earlier Graneau works, going back to 1983. You could also check the author indices of Physics Abstracts, not terribly hard work. The son, Neal, has the address (on the paper I have here) of Dept. of Eng. Sci., Oxford Uni., OX1 3PJ. Should be easy for you to contact him there, Chris. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 00:20:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA25318 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:20:26 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA25300 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:20:21 -0800 Received: from net-1-167.austin.eden.com (net-1-127.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.127]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id CAA14171 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:20:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:20:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512040820.CAA14171 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dieter said: >Yes, please. The only reason I look at vortex-l is to read about these >supposedly "o-u" gadgets, not new Theories of Everything, for which there >are news groups aplenty. I like that. How about "o-u gadget experiments" as a rough description. That would include the Yusmar device, any CF experiment, extraordinary magnetic motors, etc. Of course we'd have to include some theory but presumably only that which appeared to be directly applicable to a given experiment under discussion. BillB's "Freenrg" has a similar nominal subject but it doesn't have Vortex's "smarty pants" :-) Keep the name Vortex-L. Write up a mission statement. Post it whenever we start drifting off course. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 05:21:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA06339 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:21:37 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA06321 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:21:33 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA06922; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:21:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:21:29 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? In-Reply-To: <199512040820.CAA14171 natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > I like that. How about "o-u gadget experiments" as a rough description. > That would include the Yusmar device, any CF experiment, extraordinary > magnetic motors, etc. Of course we'd have to include some theory but > presumably only that which appeared to be directly applicable to a given > experiment under discussion. > > BillB's "Freenrg" has a similar nominal subject but it doesn't have Vortex's > "smarty pants" :-) I started freenrg-list partly to give a place for non-vortex threads to go, but since its main purpose was to support "weird science" hobbyist discussions, it really wasn't an appropriate annex for vortex-L. How about "vortex-L" staying as it is, with a wide variety of topics, but adding a second list "vortcore-L" for low-traffic experimental results and discussion only? Neither one need be limited only to water-vortex topics. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 05:59:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA14188 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:59:16 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA14176 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:59:13 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA07820 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:58:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199512041358.AA07820 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:58:57 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: vtx: isobars Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:58:18 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I'll also try to limit my comments to a minimum. Is is possible that in the CETI cell nickel 58 is going to iron 58? The energy levels are about the same. Double electron capture is required. No spin remains for the emission of a photon. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 06:37:36 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA23016 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:37:33 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA23004 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:37:30 -0800 Received: from net-1-205.austin.eden.com (net-1-205.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.205]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA20436 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:37:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:37:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512041437.IAA20436 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: BillB sez: >How about "vortex-L" staying as it is, with a wide variety of topics, but >adding a second list "vortcore-L" for low-traffic experimental results >and discussion only? Neither one need be limited only to water-vortex >topics. Sounds good to me...but we better ask our international members if "vortcore" means anything obscene in their respective languages . How about a vote? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 06:40:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA23691 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:40:39 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA23678 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:40:36 -0800 Received: from net-1-205.austin.eden.com (net-1-205.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.205]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA20572 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:40:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:40:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512041440.IAA20572 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: isobars, Fe-58 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > > I'll also try to limit my comments to a minimum. > Is is possible that in the CETI cell nickel 58 is going to iron 58? > The energy levels are about the same. Double electron capture is > required. No spin remains for the emission of a photon. What about Fe K x-rays (6.4 keV) from the resulting Fe atom which is born missing both inner electrons? With a redesigned cell, they'd be quite detectable. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 07:36:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA09168 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:36:08 -0800 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA09150 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:36:05 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzsre06193; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23784; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:35:58 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 242135070095338FEPRI; 04 Dec 1995 07:35:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 04 Dec 1995 07:35:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: isobars To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/04/95 07:35:20 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/04/95 07:23 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: isobars Frank: When are you leaving for Anah-, when are you arriving? What equipment are you brining? When you sign a "non-disclosure" does that prevent you from giving us "black box" results? (I.e., power in, deltaT& Flow out, or Qdotin/Qdotout or integrated results???) Hey, if anyone has an AOL or Compuser, you can sign on as GUEST. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 09:23:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA15309 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:23:19 -0800 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA15250 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:23:09 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzsrl08675; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25823; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:22:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 024220090095338FEPRI; 04 Dec 1995 09:20:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 04 Dec 1995 09:20:09 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: NONDISC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/04/95 08:58:12 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/01/95 21:34 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: NONDISC Frank says that the claim is a Kilowatt cell. If the ratios are the same as before, then we can figure about 30 watts input. Now this is somewhat "see it to believe it" realm, but I'm glad we have had the discussion on the "max possible chemical energy". It should be noted that we are going to have Frank, Gene M., Jed R., and Jean Paul B. (Equest) who all probably will see this device. I would hope that unlike the St. Petersburg P device, that this demo will be somewhat more straight forward than the P testing. I.e., flow in, flow out. Constant rate flow, measureable with stopwatch and bucket---and some sort of steady state pumping. DeltaT measurable with installed TC's and/or Thermal sensors brought by the observers. Let's say we are getting 1KW thermal out of something Coke can size. Using an improbable density of lead for the internal contents, there would be about 10 lbm of material. (Sorry if I'm frustrating you SI guys, but I'm an old fashioned Eng. type.) That would be 220,000 BTU in "gasoline equivalents". 1000 watts would be 3414 BTU s per hour, or about 70,000 BTU per day. So 3 days running would = CHEMICAL under most conservative circumstances. Now if the actual mass is about 300 grams, as I suspect, then 3 days would produce 10 times chemical. Can I venture to say that if you get into the realm of 100 times chemical you are getting into the realm where the only KNOWN process is nuclear? If you are in the 1000 to 10,000 realm, then there is not doubt it is nuclear. - HOME HEATING HAS GOT TO BE FIRST! This is an imperative. Sorry Chris, you live in too mild a climate. You too Jed! Come live in MN for a while, and pay your $800 to $1200 a year for heating and you'll understand why we are so concerned! - Signed: Holding breath til blue: M. Hugo From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 10:57:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA23471 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:57:38 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA23446 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:57:33 -0800 Received: from s3c0p3.aa.net (s3c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.135]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA31054 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:57:21 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:57:21 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512041857.KAA31054 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Something I'm still thinking about: Vortex-L message traffic is too high >>for some subscribers, and some may be interested only in vortex anomaly >>research. > >Yes the traffic is too high....but there are a lot of things that interest >me on Vortex...and I really value having the brain power of all the members >available to help on problem solving and info gathering. > >Seems to me the best split would be into (1) Theories and (2) Experiments. > What happens when you get a dozen different experiments running? Seems like the problem will persist or revive. BUT, I do agree about the load. Download this am between vortex and free energy was over 200 messages. most must go unread. I rely on the subject headers. For instance, I am no longer oponing "Something Different...but I am having them for a quick browse later. Natcherly I will read anything related to radiation. The Potapov device is going into a mail box stash after a quick peak shows nothing new really. A lot of other misc. categories just get shoved into the November or December box unread. The key is not so much splitting the list, and let's face it, the theory is hard to divorce from experiments, but that stuff is easy to segment out anyway from the threads. The key is in really good subject headers. The threads do the seperation. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 11:12:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA28850 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:11:45 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA28746 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:11:24 -0800 Received: from s3c0p3.aa.net (s3c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.135]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA31761 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:09:38 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:09:38 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512041909.LAA31761 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: vtx: VORTEX-L SPLIT? - THREADS BY GOOD SUBJECT HEADERS Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Something I'm still thinking about: Vortex-L message traffic is too high >>for some subscribers, and some may be interested only in vortex anomaly >>research. > The key is not so much splitting the list, and let's face it, the theory is hard to divorce from experiments, but that stuff is easy to segment out anyway from the threads. The key is in really good subject headers. The threads do the seperation. Additional comments. How about using a nomemclature along the lines of: THEORY about EXPERIMENT about ANNOUNCE about QUERY about INVITATION about CLAIMS about ANOMOLY XYZ and, anyone's post which creates a focus of on-going reponses, could be named something like: TINSLEY'S QUERY ELECTRON PROOF? etc. I think it is up to us the keep the threads easily recognizable. So before you hit the send message button on a reSpond message, think for a split moment as your finger is about to hit the key, about whether or not the message subject header is trully communicative WITH GOOD KEY WORDS. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 11:25:46 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA03998 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:25:30 -0800 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA03934 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:25:19 -0800 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA20782; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:23:49 -0500 Date: 04 Dec 95 14:22:04 EST From: Frederick J Sparber <102021.3045 compuserve.com> To: vortex-L Subject: vtx: Copy of: Electrical Charge Message-ID: <951204192203_102021.3045_EHT25-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FROM: Frederick J Sparber, 102021,3045 TO: Frank Znidarsic, INTERNET:FZNIDARSIC aol.com DATE: 12/4/95 9:20 AM Re: Copy of: Electrical Charge Frank, Thanks for the copy of your Genesis and ZPE Theory. In the Relativistic Point Mass (RPM) theory I derive charge which I consider to be the sign (or if you will the phase of the electrical energy wave trapped in a particle mode in space), in the following manner. The radius r of a wave-particle; r = hbar*c/w = amplitude of the wave, w is the rest energy (joules) For the electron w = 8.16E-14 joules r= 3.86E-13 meters = Compton wavelength/2Pi. The the capacitance C is eo*r = 3.428E-24 farads, and inductance L is uo*r = 4.86E-19 henrys, thus (L/C)^1/2 is 377 ohms. The displacement current I and the electric field potential are derived by: .5w = .5CV^2 and .5w = .5LI^2, then I = (w/L)^1/2 = 410 amperes and V = (w/C)^1/2 = 1.5428E5 volts. Then the charge q = CV/Pi = 1.6E-19 coulombs an intrinsic constant of a particle-wave thus I see no possibility of fractionally charged particles but necessarily opposite phase or sign for the charge conjugate particles. The two positive and one negative RPMs that make up the proton give it a net charge of plus q (or e) which is balanced by its external electron. I'm out of the Vortex-L group for the time being, but I will see if a copy goes in. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:52:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05444 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:52:10 -0800 Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (0 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05365 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:51:56 -0800 Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA07510 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:43:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512042043.PAA07510 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 15:54:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: "Something completely different" Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > ... >This all boils down to: how can something happen during an instant in >time, yet behave like a long-term wave that has been oscillating for >thousands of cycles? > >The answer: "yet it moves." EM does behave like this, even though no one >has come up with a good visual explanation of how such a thing is possible. >Wheelers many-worlds stuff comes close, with the universe splitting into >parallel copies for every quantized interaction. > Is it Everett's many-worlds stuff? Anyway, in my opinion, David Bohm's interpretation of quantum mechanics is much more realistic, intuitive, and *visual*. Cheers, bill Page. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:52:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05416 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:52:08 -0800 Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (0 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05338 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:51:52 -0800 Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA07507 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:43:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512042043.PAA07507 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 15:54:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: NONDISC Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hugo wrote: >... > Can I venture to say that if you get into the realm of 100 times >chemical you are getting into the realm where the only KNOWN process is >nuclear? If you are in the 1000 to 10,000 realm, then there is not doubt >it is nuclear. > No, not on a mailing list where the topic is over-unity devices! Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 14:50:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA23289 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:38:30 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA23145 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:38:06 -0800 Received: from s1c0p3.aa.net (s1c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.167]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA06731 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:36:54 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:36:54 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512042136.NAA06731 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: vtx: Heffner's Dilemma On Email Volume Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Hello, > >Just a personal note to say I think your thread naming ideas are good >regardless of where the split ends up. However, it is clear you probably >have a good thread managing reader, and like I, you are probably not paying >by the character transmitted like our European friends. Those in the >unfortunate position of paying half their salary for a month of news >probably will not understand your position. By doubling the volume they >are being put out of business. They can avoid reading it, but they can't >avoid paying for it. I can appreciate and sympathize, so I have stopped >contributing to vortex to restore this precious resource. Ahh, the light just went on in my head. Sorry for the dilemma. I guess that it will take a little longer for email services to universalize into a set of decent tools at a reasonable cost. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 16:21:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA26386 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:20:08 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA26245 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:19:42 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA07480; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:17:29 -0500 Date: 04 Dec 95 19:12:40 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? Message-ID: <951205001239_100060.173_JHB93-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter, >> The only reason I look at vortex-l is to read about these supposedly "o- u" gadgets, not new Theories of Everything, for which there are news groups aplenty. << Agreed, perhaps it might be worth considering changing the name of the list to "o-u", since it looks as though "Vortex" might be too narrow for the taste of those remaining, which I would like to be, even though my contribution to a more advanced treatment of the subject would be more as a lurker than a leading edge Scientist. If I ever get my workshop back then I would return to practical experiments, but for the time being I enjoy reading of this gang's exploits. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 22:00:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19208 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:59:09 -0800 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA19084 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:58:46 -0800 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0tMqQ6-000MNmC; Tue, 5 Dec 95 08:00 EET Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:00:02 +0200 (EET) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: short messages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, I had troubles with the e-mail. Two short messages: Scott, I'll send you the answers with all the details re the Yusmar and the Piantelli device tomorrow. I'm writing a paper today and some reports. Robert of Visor, Thank in advance for the patents. I have asked the secretary what is the maximum length of a fax they can tolerate and she said 6-7 pages (no money that's the reason!) Therefore I dare to ask you to send the first pages (with abstract) by fax and all the patents by e-mail, will be pleasant to read them at Christmas, predictably. E-mail accepts only ASCII (primitive) My data: Peter Gluck, Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology POBox 700, 3400 Cluj-Napoca, Romania FAX: 40-64-420042; PHONE: 40-64-420050 (at the Institute) 40-64-174976 (at home) Home address: Strada Tasnad no. 29, Apt 3, 3400 Cluj-Napoca Romania. If you are planning to come in our country, I shall be very glad to see you! All the best wishes, Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 02:11:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA15633 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:11:07 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA15621 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:11:02 -0800 Received: from s3c1p7.aa.net (s3c1p7.aa.net [204.157.220.147]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA11232 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:10:58 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:10:58 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512051010.CAA11232 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: vtx: CONGRATULATIONS TO INFINITE ENERGY Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In the last week of November, Infinite Energy Volume 1, Number 4 was sent out >via bulk mail (and by first class mail to dozens of notable VIPs and cold >fusion colleagues)... The latest issue is well worth reading for its great news. It succeeds in truly bringing the cold fusion REALITY into the public arena. What a great collector's copy!!! This ish more than any so far is the milestone. The industry is nothing but up from here. Congratulations Gene, and thanks for hanging in there to deliver the goods. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 05:59:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA24255 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:59:21 -0800 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA22901 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:54:38 -0800 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0tMxn8-000MNyC; Tue, 5 Dec 95 15:52 EET Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:52:18 +0200 (EET) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: Conf. of S. Jones Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Looking over the program of the Pittsburgh conference on Analytical Chemistry (PITTCON' 96, McCormick Place, Chicago, IL, March 3-8, 1996) I found info re. a special session on Pathological Science. Besides two lectures on the sociology of science by R. A. Durst and R. N. Hall, one on polywater (Denis l. Rousseau) and one on biological activity at infinite dilution (W. W. Stewart) the last speaker is Prof. Steven E. Jones with an other variant of: "Whatever Happened to Cold Fusion?" Quite interesting, can somebody ask him about the main ideas and conclusions of this speech? I hope that a Patterson Cell will displayed at Pittcon too and Prof. Jones will explain why it doesn't work, or if it works, why is it plain chemistry. Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 09:52:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA06044 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:51:41 -0800 Received: from receptor.ibg.uu.se (receptor.ibg.uu.se [130.238.36.157]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA05994 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:51:34 -0800 Received: from synapse.ibg.uu.se by receptor.ibg.uu.se via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id SAA07957; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:54:51 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:54:50 +0100 (MET) From: David Jonsson X-Sender: david synapse.ibg.uu.se To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Altering of half-lives In-Reply-To: <199511301415.BAA21935 tornado.netspace.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On 29 Nov 95 at 12:26, Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > > Robin wrote: > > > > > To put it another way, can an observer located inside such a sphere tell if > > > the sphere is charged or not? > > > > >Only if he's radioactive. :-> > > > > I do not see a way (by standard physics) that being radioactive would help. > > What do you have in mind? The Coulomb repulsion between the protons in the atom will be greater if the atomnucleus is in a negative environment and smaller if in a positive environment. Nuclear decay is in part coulomb-repulsion. My physical instinct say that this effect should be very very small but I hope to be able to show this in more detail soon. BTW has anyone thought about the charge of the earth (or other astronomical bodies)? Maybe the magnetic field of the earth is caused by its rotating charge? David David Jonsson Voice +46-18-24 51 52 Fax +46-18-10 37 37 P.O Box 353 david ibg.uu.se Cellular Phone (GSM) +46-70-721 25 19 S-751 06 UPPSALA Postgiro 499 40 54-7 Web: http://www.ibg.uu.se/~david/ SWEDEN ++++ Acceleration/gravity is electromag: see web above ++++ From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 10:41:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA23651 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:40:55 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA23525 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:40:30 -0800 Received: from s3c3p5.aa.net (s3c3p5.aa.net [204.157.220.161]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA27710 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:38:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:38:51 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512051838.KAA27710 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Altering of half-lives Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >BTW has anyone thought about the charge of the earth (or other >astronomical bodies)? Maybe the magnetic field of the earth is caused >by its rotating charge? > >David > >David Jonsson Voice +46-18-24 51 52 Fax +46-18-10 37 37 >P.O Box 353 david ibg.uu.se Cellular Phone (GSM) +46-70-721 25 19 >S-751 06 UPPSALA Postgiro 499 40 54-7 Web: http://www.ibg.uu.se/~david/ >SWEDEN ++++ Acceleration/gravity is electromag: see web above ++++ > This is an interesting question. What we have here is a wheel within wheel within wheel situation, considering the Solar, Lunar, and Earth influences, including the deep core "fifth" state of matter, the semiconducting mantle, the atmosphere, etc. All of it is interconnected, but HOW? I've never even heard of a systems model that has been proposed, only the Solar winds models and half-hearted attempts to describe the inner earth as a self-sustaining motor/generator. Anybody heard of a systems approach to the Earth's electro-magneto environment? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:29:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA19668 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:29:17 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA19601 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:29:06 -0800 Received: from net-1-175.austin.eden.com (net-1-175.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.175]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA10400 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:28:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:28:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512052228.QAA10400 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: ASCII data plotter wanted X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's a little challenge for you theoreticians with overactive minds that can also write code and have time on your hands: I'd like to have a program that would read a two-column text file containing ordered pairs of data, prompt me for axis labels, scaling info, and main title, and then automatically generate a straight-ASCII plot (rounding off each value to the nearest row,column location) suitable for pasting into an email transmission. Here's an example of the desired output that I generated by hand: . . 80- nvs O . n n V . s E . av R . a s A70- s a L . L . . s c E . a F60- F . sr I . xv a C . I . s r E50- s = 1.04" out, .825" bypass a N . r = 1.39" out, .825" bypass C . n = 106 gpm (P device) Y . a = 54 gpm (P device) . c = 65 gpm (P device) %40- x = 65 gpm+air (P device) r vc . v = 60 gpm (gate valve) . |.........|.........|.........|.........|.........|... 2 3 4 5 6 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 AVERAGE BATH TEMPERATURE (C) The legend is perhaps a bit much to ask for since it can always be typed in under the plot. A nice enhancement would be to allow multiple dependant variables to be plotted against a commen independant variable, each with its own plot character (as I did above). Such a program would significantly improve my ability to post experimental results via email. For example in my recent evaluation of the TOMI track device I omitted a plot of F vs x because it would have taken some time to prepare manually. I'd like the program to be written in QuickBASIC but anything compiled to an .EXE (yes, IMB PC compatible) would be acceptable. Any volunteers? Anybody know of existing programs like this? P.S. Thanks for the reduced traffic. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:33:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA21084 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:33:18 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA21060 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:33:14 -0800 Received: from net-1-175.austin.eden.com (net-1-175.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.175]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA10602 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512052232.QAA10602 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Altering experiment X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: David Johnsson writes: >My physical >instinct say that this effect should be very very small but I hope to be >able to show this in more detail soon. Are you planning to perform this experiment? I am preparing to do so and have obtained and read the Barker patent. It contains some things that surprise me. For example, it is evident that at least some of his data was collected _while_ the Van De Graff generator was running! His detector (a GM tube) was attached to the upper terminal of the VdG. I do not see how he could get reliable noise-free operation of such a detector with the VdG operating...of course I've never tried it...yet. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:40:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA22686 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:40:16 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA22656 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:40:10 -0800 Received: from net-1-175.austin.eden.com (net-1-248.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.248]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA10926 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:40:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:40:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512052240.QAA10926 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Home Depot Am-241 sources X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those of you considering the "altering" experiment, Home Depot sells 1 uCi Am-241 sources for $7.50 each. They come wrapped in something called a "smoke detector" which is easily discarded. The source is a sandwich of Am-241 between very thin Au foils. A disc of this active foil (about 3mm in dia) is staked into a small steel holder which makes for convenient handling. When I place one of these sources on the window of my 2" NaI scintillator with SCA set on the 60 kEV peak I get about 2000 counts/sec...rather a nice activity for this experiment. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 15:33:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09429 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:33:03 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA09327 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:32:47 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-30.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-30.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.30]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA10375 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:30:24 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512052330.KAA10375 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:30:12 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: isobars Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 4 Dec 95 at 8:58, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: [snip] > Is is possible that in the CETI cell nickel 58 is going to iron 58? [snip] Why would 26Fe58 which is a stable isotope, suddenly undergo electron capture? (To become 25Co58). Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 15:33:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09521 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:33:17 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA09384 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:32:55 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-30.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-30.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.30]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA10382 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:30:28 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512052330.KAA10382 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:30:12 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 4 Dec 95 at 5:21, William Beaty wrote: [snip] > How about "vortex-L" staying as it is, with a wide variety of topics, but > adding a second list "vortcore-L" for low-traffic experimental results > and discussion only? Neither one need be limited only to water-vortex > topics. > [snip] Bill, There might be another option. Does your listserver support the "index only" option for subscribers. I.e. a subscriber turns on the index only mode, and only receives a list of messages titles and authors that have been posted. Then by editing the list and sending it back to the listserv, only those messages that the individual subscriber wishes to receive are sent. This could save our Russian friends heaps. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 17:23:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA18696 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:23:43 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA18592 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:23:26 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA01004; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:22:05 -0500 Date: 05 Dec 95 20:19:38 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417 compuserve.com> To: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Planetary charges Message-ID: <951206011938_75110.3417_CHK44-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi David J, Michael M, >From David: >> BTW has anyone thought about the charge of the earth (or other astronomical bodies)? Maybe the magnetic field of the earth is caused by its rotating charge? << >From Michael: >> What we have here is a wheel within wheel within wheel situation, considering the Solar, Lunar, and Earth influences, including the deep core "fifth" state of matter, the semiconducting mantle, the atmosphere, etc. All of it is interconnected, but HOW? << This is probably not the place for this discussion, but I've been bugging both astrophysicists and geophysicists for years about this. They all seem to think the effects are too small -- but I'm not so sure. All planets (and other bodies in the solar system) have a high static charge which interacts with the magnetic field of the bodies. However, only the planets with large satellites have a large magnetic field (Mercury and Venus have just about none, Mars is very weak). Maybe it's coincidental, but it seems that the larger satellites have some function in generating the field. Michael, I'm interested in your comment about the mantle being semiconducting. Do you recall any references that might indicate this? Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 20:43:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA25327 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:43:02 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA25269 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:42:50 -0800 Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA27415; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:38:05 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:38:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199512060438.UAA27415 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Semi-conducting earth Cc: mwm aa.net Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Michael, I'm interested in your comment about the mantle being semiconducting. >Do you recall any references that might indicate this? > >Dean -- from Des Moines > > Dean: let's follow through with discussion on this topic. What is the appropriate listserv? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:46:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA06087 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:45:03 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA06027 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:44:51 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id BAA17113; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:43:31 -0500 Date: 05 Dec 95 23:41:30 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen Message-ID: <951206044130_72240.1256_EHB179-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Greetings Vortexians. This is Jed reporting from the Power-Gen conference, where I have been observing the latest CETI demonstration system. This is a preliminary report because I have not been able to get the level of detail I feel comfortable with. It has been too hectic in the conference hall for careful observation. I have only taken one temperature measurement independently with my Radio Shack thermistor, which agreed with the thermocouples to the nearest tenth-degree C. Tomorrow, the system will be moved into a conference room where I will be able to write down all the particulars and make a video of a test. While this information is incomplete, I do feel these numbers are reliable. BACKGROUND The cell is larger than the previously ones. It is 4 inches long, 1 inch in diameter, containing roughly 40 ml of beads. (Previous cells had about 1 ml of beads). The cell itself is wrapped in opaque foam plastic because the cell geometry has been improved and the improvements are not yet covered by patent applications. Other components in the calorimeter are made of clear plastic. It is flow calorimeter, as before, only much larger. The reservoir holds 2.5 liters and the flow rate is set between 1 and 2 liters per minute. A control cell is mounted parallel to the hot cell. The flow to both cells is regulated with precision valves. Static in-line mixers are used to ensure mixing. (These are little plastic things about an inch long with vanes pointing in four directions to stir the flow.) A flowmeter of sufficient capacity could not be procured in time for the conference, so no flowmeter is installed. Flow is measured by directing the return hose into a graduated cylinder for 15 seconds. The water hose from pump is coiled in air cooled box on top of reservoir. Air is drawn through box by a muffin fan. The Delta T temperatures and reservoir temperatures are measured with K-Type thermocouples, as before. All power supplies for the pump, electrolysis, and muffin fan have common a/c cord, which is monitored. by a Radio Shack analog a/c voltmeter and hand ammeter. RESULTS Test 1, December 4, two hours INPUT POWER Measured at a/c: 0.7 A * 120 V = 84 W Electrolysis: 0.18 A * 8 V = 1.4 W OUTPUT POWER Flow rate 1200 ml/minute (300 ml/15 seconds) Delta T Temperature 16 to 17 deg C 1200 ml * 16 deg C * 4.2 = 80,640 j/min = 1,344 W (This test ran a bit too hot and slightly damaged the equipment. Bead fragments were caught in the pump, which had to be cleaned out the next morning. They have been trying to keep the power below 1000 watts. The damage is caused because this is a hand made experimental cell; a commercial cell would easily avoid these problems.) Test 2, December 5, afternoon, 30 minutes. INPUT POWER Measured at a/c: 0.7 A * 140 V = 98 W Electrolysis: 0.02 A * 3.9 V = 0.1 W OUTPUT POWER Flow rate 1000 ml/min (250 ml/15 seconds) Delta T Temperature 6.7 deg C 1000 ml * 6.7 * 4.2 = 28,140 j/min = 469 W ADDITIONAL OBSERVATIONS During the high power run the reservoir temperature was around 45 deg C (didn't write down the numbers). The reservoir walls were quite warm to the touch and the muffin fan blew a stream of warm air out the top. The whole thing was easily as warm as a 1200 watt hairdrier left on. In fact, it made the meeting room so stuffy that we had to call the hotel lady in and have her turn up the air conditioning a little. This is the first time in history that a CF room heater has made a palpable difference in the air temperature. I do not think that a 100 light bulb placed in the same position would have felt as warm as this. The cell plus pump produced roughly 1400 watts, so it was like having 5 extra people in the room. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 23:11:07 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA13174 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:10:07 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA13150 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:10:01 -0800 Received: from net-1-172.austin.eden.com (net-1-157.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.157]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id BAA10278 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:09:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:09:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512060709.BAA10278 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks a lot, Jed. >Test 2, December 5, afternoon, 30 minutes. >Measured at a/c: 0.7 A * 140 V = 98 W >Electrolysis: 0.02 A * 3.9 V = 0.1 W >OUTPUT POWER >Flow rate 1000 ml/min (250 ml/15 seconds) >Delta T Temperature 6.7 deg C >1000 ml * 6.7 * 4.2 = 28,140 j/min = 469 W This thing sounds fantastic. What is "Measured at a/c"? Is that the pump power? Ask about the beads again. Have they changed them any? What metals are they using on them now? Will they reveal what metals they've tried as bead coatings? Have they ever tested the cell with D-depleted water? etc. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 23:38:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20231 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:37:44 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA20215 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:37:40 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA10065; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:38:01 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:38:01 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ASCII data plotter wanted In-Reply-To: <199512052228.QAA10400 natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Maybe gnuplot can do this, Scott. It is freely available from somewhere (I can find this out), and has various settings for what sort of device you want it to plot to, among others what it calls a "dumb" terminal or - presumably - a file. This produces the sort of stuff you mention. There are settings for axis markers, title, etc. A real poor man's SigmaPlot. If you are interested, I can find out where you can download it from. Meanwhile, I might play with it to see whether it does produce dumb ASCII plots. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 23:54:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24676 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:53:17 -0800 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA24656 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:53:11 -0800 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA05248; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 02:51:52 -0500 Date: 06 Dec 95 02:57:35 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: CETI at Anaheim Message-ID: <951206075734_100433.1541_BHG30-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Scott asks about the ac power. From Jed's verbal comments, the trick was that they put all the ac load onto one cord and measured that. The load thus included the pump, the electrolysis power supply, and such meters as were not self-powered. Since Jed has now 'published', here is my own digest of his earlier report. I was going to send it to a few people, but here it is - warts and all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CETI (Clean Energy Technologies Inc) brought their latest "cold fusion" machine to the exhibition. (Please note that fusion in the sense of nuclear fusion is improbable as the energy source in this device. I use the term as a tag for these presumably related phenomena). The device is significantly bigger than the demonstration unit built by the University of Illinois and shown at the recent SOFE fusion technology meeting there recently. It consists of a tube filled with small (<1mm) plastic beads, each plated with several layers of metal. At Illinois, these platings were (from the bead outward) copper, nickel, palladium and nickel. In fact, the palladium probably plays no active role, it may only be providing a low-resistance electrical connection. The total internal volume of the cylinder is 40ml. The beads are in contact with one another, and act as the cathode in an electrolytic cell. The anode of the cell is of platinum, but perhaps nickel would work just as well. The electrolyte is a solution in ordinary water (not heavy water) and the solute is (or was at Illinois) lithium sulphate. There is a reservoir of electrolyte, about a gallon or two. A pump circulates electrolyte through the bead cathode at a rate of 20ml/sec. Passage through the cathode causes an increase in temperature of between 16 and 17 degrees Celsius. Taking the thermal capacity of the electrolyte as being the same as water (which it isn't exactly), this represents a heating rate of more than 1.3kW. The power from the 8V dc supply to the cell is 1.4W (180mA). Thus the power out:power in ratio is very nearly 1000:1. The bead mass is producing heat at the rate of nearly 35W/ml. A litre would thus produce 35 kilowatts. Certain adjustments should be made, however. If the device is like the one in Illinois, then much of the input energy is being dissipated in the dissociation of the water into hydrogen and oxygen - which was simply vented off instead of being recombined. On the other hand, the powerful pump is certainly adding some heat into the water. The best arguments in such matters are probably the simplest: all the electrical equipment (the dc power supply, the pump, and some of the test meters) are fed from a single ac wall socket. This gives 120V and the current measured is 0.7A, the total electrical supply being thus 80W. At a guess, the pump motor may be taking 50W, and maybe putting 10W into the electrolyte. The dissociation of water is probably losing about half the input energy. There will be some thermal losses. Maybe the actual 'over-unity' performance is closer to 2000:1 The bottom line is that the total power being taken by the system and all its ancillary equipment and test meters is 80W. The total power being produced to heat the electrolyte is more than 1300W. The mechanism by which this energy is being produced is not clear. It is certainly not chemical energy, since it rapidly exceeds any conceivable chemical process (for example, filling the cylinder with beryllium metal and oxidising it) within hours - it runs apparently indefinitely, one smaller cell ran for six weeks. The idea that it is a nuclear effect is highly improbable, but cannot be discounted. Effectively zero ionising radiation or neutrons have so far been detected. If a non-radiative and previously unknown nuclear process is occurring, then it would require a stable elemental product. Some work has been done to search for products, but so far no reports of any success have been made. This would appear to be one of the "Nickel-Hydrogen" variety of cold fusion processes. At least two other 'big players' - Mills in Pennsylvania and Piantelli in Italy - are reporting considerable success with processes of this kind, and both claim to have 'gas phase' units (these use nickel in an atmosphere of hydrogen gas). Of all the processes (and there are many) which claim to produce the CF heat effect, Ni-H has for some time seemed to me the most promising, for reasons of cost, power density and general reliability once the special conditions for its working have been met. However, only CETI have been able to demonstrate the effect at will and in public. And their process has been replicated by at least two independent universities. With this demonstration of reliability and performance, all the criticisms of CF experimentation are answered. The sole remaining objection - in the eyes of some hostile observers - is the lack of a proposed explanation for the effect. Since the effect is cheap and apparently competely safe, this lack of understanding should prove no obstacle to commercial exploitation. It is also reported that the process will work at elevated temperatures (300 degrees Celsius) under pressure. This is similar to the temperature of the cooling water in a fission reactor, so that the process will be able to drive a steam turbine, Stirling engine, or similar energy conerter. Without pressure, domestic heaters would be practical, but with pressure it will be possible to make home electrical power plants and motor vehicles power units. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just received this from Jed. Apparently the beads were tending to break up at the very high (35W/ml) power, so they reduced the input - note the increased ratio. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The numbers from the afternoon run were as follows: POWER IN: A/C 0.7 A * 140 V = 98 W Electrolysis 3.9 V * 0.02 A = 0.1 W POWER OUT 1.0 l/minute flow * 6.7 dec Delta T = 28140 j/minute = 469 watts ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [end] From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 23:55:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24941 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:54:27 -0800 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA24919 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:54:22 -0800 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA05399; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 02:53:04 -0500 Date: 06 Dec 95 02:58:15 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: CETI at Anaheim Message-ID: <951206075814_100433.1541_BHG30-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To:vortex I am hopelessly behind with postings here (and elsewhere), and I'll try to catch up - thank you all for your help with the Graneau references especially. Peter Gluck writes: "...the last speaker is Prof. Steven E. Jones with an other variant of: "Whatever Happened to Cold Fusion?" Quite interesting, can somebody ask him about the main ideas and conclusions of this speech? I hope that a Patterson Cell will displayed at Pittcon too and Prof. Jones will explain why it doesn't work, or if it works, why is it plain chemistry." Peter, do I detect a note of (quite unworthy) cynicism here? It is true that early reports from Anaheim are breathtakingly good, but there is many a slip 'twixt cup and lip. Something may break - especially with such huge power - and Sod's Law states clearly that if it does it will be the one thing for which they have no spare. In the matter of CF critics, we on our side of the fence should perhaps look to our own shortcomings. It may be the case that Prof Jones will be the first to explain to us how the machine works. As Dr Blue points out, we have signally failed to explain the source of energy. We should humbly await the assistance of the broader science community, who may now bring their greater wisdom to bear on this thorny question. After all, with no satisfactory theoretical basis, then even the hoped-for commercial products which should follow this demonstration cannot be regarded as scientifically valid. We have all been most fortunate even to have attracted the cautious and (quite properly) sceptical attention of the scientific community. Some of the more vociferous in our number have, after all, been less than entirely respectful in their comments. Naturally, now that so incontrovertible and conclusive demonstration is in progress, the vast wisdom will bend to study this (probably trivially obvious) phenomenon. Surely you would not suggest that the broader community might simply fail to accept reality? You should appreciate, Peter, that many will require to see properly peer-reviewed articles in Nature, together with favourable comment from that great journal, but this will doubtless follow soon - maybe even within the next five years. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 02:27:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA24025 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 02:26:03 -0800 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA23998 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 02:25:48 -0800 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0tNGqF-000MNzC; Wed, 6 Dec 95 12:12 EET Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:12:47 +0200 (EET) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: Anaheim mon amour. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, Chris, You are the best Santa Claus we ever had! Thank you! The Anaheim demonstration is an undeniable triumph even if Sod's Law will make some troubles. The last argument of the sceptics- lack of a theoretical explanation wouldn't retard the development of the field. And what's more important, the existence of such a powerful and reliable source will offer opportunities to get a direct answer, by experiment to the great question: NUCLEAR or NOT NUCLEAR. Specialized groups can try to find helium, neutrons, tritium, all kind of radiations or hydrinos or any other entities. As I have told many times, essential data will be obtained by trying to run the cell with water having reduced content of deuterium or with Li-6 vs. Li-7 based electrolyte. We shall learn a lot. As regarding the planned conference of Prof. Jones -who with all due respect, is a special case- (I wrote the note before getting any results from Anaheim)-his lecture is of real interest for me. He is one of those scientists who has done the greatest harm to our field and not by damaging the respectability of it; in the name of correctness he pushed many of our colleagues to despair. I remember only his attacks against the results of Arata and of E-Quest, a lot of tricks as hyperbo- lizing insignifiant episodes or emphasizing that George has no Ph D. The worst consequence is that many of our pals suffer from "JONESITIS" an illness characterized by FOCUSING ON MEASUREMENT NOT ENHANCEMENT OF THE EFFECT. Enormous quantities of creativity have been wasted due to jonesitis. The lesson of Anaheim is 'Technology First!' I wonder if the results of scientific investigation of the PPC will be not published by Science; Nature is different, John Maddox is an other special case (even retired). As I predicted, eventually everybody will be happy: the believers because CF exists and works, the sceptics because it is not genuine fusion and the Mankind because will have a fine energy source. Waiting for new developments, Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 03:52:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA06604 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:50:49 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA06582 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:50:38 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-48.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-48.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.48]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA09675 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:48:18 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512061148.WAA09675 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:51:28 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Altering of half-lives Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 5 Dec 95 at 10:38, Michael Mandeville wrote: [snip] > > Anybody heard of a systems approach to the Earth's electro-magneto environment? [snip] Just for the fun of it, you might like to calculate the charge on the earth, by thinking of the earth and ionosphere as a gigantic 2 plate spherical capacitor. I'm not sure about the voltage, but I believe it is in the many megavolt range. Then let this charge rotate at 1 revolution per day, and calculate the field generated. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 06:50:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA13839 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 06:49:07 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13785 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 06:48:55 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA18138; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:49:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:49:14 +0100 From: Dieter Britz Message-Id: <9512061449.AA18138 kemi.aau.dk> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vtx: ASCII plotter Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, I tried it out with gnuplot, and it works as I thought. Here is my shell file: gnuplot << eof set term dumb set output 'dumb.l' set time set title 'Dumb gnuplot of sin(x)/x' set xlabel 'x' set ylabel 'f(x)' plot sin(x)/x exit eof and here is the resulting file 'dumb.l': f(x) Dumb gnuplot of sin(x)/x 1 ++---------------+--------------***---------------+--------------++ + + * + * + + | ** : ** sin(x)/x **** | 0.8 ++ * : * ++ | * : * | 0.6 ++ * : * ++ | * : * | | * : * | 0.4 ++ * : * ++ | * : * | 0.2 ++ * : * ++ | **** * : * **** | | *** ** * : * ** *** | 0 +***........**.........*...................*.........**........***+ * *** ** : ** *** * -0.2 ++ *** *** : *** *** ++ | *** : *** | + + + + + -0.4 ++---------------+---------------+----------------+--------------++ -10 -5 0 5 10 x Wed Dec 6 15:41:56 1995 Pretty good, I reckon. So gnuplot seems to be your ticket, Scott. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:14:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA20968 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:13:37 -0800 Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA20935 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:13:29 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzsym26535; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18691; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:13:23 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 105112070095340FEPRI; 06 Dec 1995 07:12:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 06 Dec 1995 07:12:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: CETI at Anaheim To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/06/95 07:12:50 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/06/95 00:01 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: CETI at Anaheim I hope that Chris' posting on this, invoking Sod's law, is somewhat tounge in cheek! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:26:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA24754 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:25:36 -0800 Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA24720 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:25:30 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzsyn29064; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15480; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:25:23 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 305624070095340FEPRI; 06 Dec 1995 07:24:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 06 Dec 1995 07:24:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/06/95 07:24:55 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/05/95 22:54 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen WOWOWOWOWOWOWOW! Is Jed SHARP....JUST the sort of Info I would want. I've got about 6000 BTU's out of the 2 1/2 of run, which I am comparing to maybe 100 grams of active material, which would be 100/453*22,000 or about 5000 BTU's on the "gasoline" basis. So, if it is chemical, it should stop soon....! Ha, consider POWER DENSITY Gentlemen! This thing has produced 30 to 40 watts per CC of "active" material. This is in the realm of the most INTENSE chemical production. (AKA "hot" racing engines, and jet aircraft afterburners.) So even if it is chemical, it would be a marvelous new reaction discovery. I vote for nuclear. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:39:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA28763 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:37:45 -0800 Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA28680 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:37:29 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzsyo01259; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29449; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:37:22 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 812836070095340FEPRI; 06 Dec 1995 07:36:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 06 Dec 1995 07:36:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: isobars To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/06/95 07:36:27 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/05/95 16:47 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: isobars Robin: Why not? (Re the Ni to Fe transition.) And, wouldn't an Edax find that shift, and why not wait until the data is in before making a judgement! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:23:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA29047 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:22:20 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA28994 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:22:10 -0800 Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA01119; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:20:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:20:21 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > > How about "vortex-L" staying as it is, with a wide variety of topics, but > adding a second list "vortcore-L" for low-traffic experimental results > and discussion only? Neither one need be limited only to water-vortex > topics. This is the best suggestion I have seen so far. This affords some of us to tangentialize in the manner that is vitally important to creative thought, without hampering our Eastern friends who pay by the character, or those of us who are too busy to read all but the most crucial reports. Let us make sure that vortcore is a subset of vortex so that those that desire the broader coverage can simply subscribe to vortex and be assured all the most salacious information available. > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:43:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA07323 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:43:26 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07212 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:42:57 -0800 Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA04409; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:39:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:39:19 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: What causes charge?? Here's what. In-Reply-To: <199512010628.WAA21673 desiree.teleport.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Charles Cagle wrote: > > {More notes on the field: William Beaty and Chris were discussing the > 'field' concept recently so I hope this supplies some fuel also for that > discussion. The field is a derived concept that has outlived its > usefulness. The field is actually derived from the potentials by > differentiations. That mathematical process reduces the degree of the > polynomial and in the process vital information is irretrievably lost. The > potentials are richer in properties than the fields and should be I choked when I read this. What makes you think that "information" is lost during differentiation? The field carries all the dynamical information necessary; yet so does the potential. Any bogus information that's left over is spurious and redundant. To consider it as real is similar to forgetting the idea of significant figures when using a calculator and dividing 1.0 by 3.0 and keeping a zillion threes, instead of the two that are meaningful. > > Best Regards, > > Charles Cagle > Singularity Technologies, Inc. > 1640 Oak Grove Road, N.W. > Salem, OR 97304 > > 503/362-7781 > Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 13:45:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01682 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:45:05 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA01580 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:44:49 -0800 Received: from net-1-168.austin.eden.com (net-1-168.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.168]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id PAA24634 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:16:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:16:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512062116.PAA24634 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/05/95 22:54 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >I vote for nuclear. MDH It would take TWO miracles for it to be nuclear and not kill everyone (from radiation) in the room at 1kw output. It only takes ONE miracle for the thing to be the long-sought zero-point energy transducer. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 14:05:08 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA09398 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:04:28 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA09247 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:03:58 -0800 Received: from s3c2p5.aa.net (s3c2p5.aa.net [204.157.220.153]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA05871 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:01:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:01:11 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512062201.OAA05871 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>*** Reply to note of 12/05/95 22:54 >>From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > >>I vote for nuclear. MDH > >It would take TWO miracles for it to be nuclear and not kill everyone (from >radiation) in the room at 1kw output. It only takes ONE miracle for the >thing to be the long-sought zero-point energy transducer. > > It may be so, however, radioactivity may be released from nuclear transmutation mainly as a result of the high energy billiard ball type of approach. It is instructive to examine the work of Kervran, whose work will appear in any University library, who clearly established that the idea of low energy transmutation may not involve destructive particles. His evidence for transmutation at the cellular level, funded for years by the French government, has never been refuted and established the credibility for the idea in the first place. The billiard ball physicists are too hung up on purely relative mathematical relationships in a fundamentally incomplete model. The mind which infers your statement above has a high risk factor of being mistaken given the many indications that radioactivity is not just as it has been partially and incompletely explained to date. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 14:33:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20112 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:33:07 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA20038 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:32:54 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzszq26296; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11725; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:32:25 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 453431140095340FEPRI; 06 Dec 1995 14:31:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 06 Dec 1995 14:31:14 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/06/95 14:31:33 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/06/95 14:01 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen Scott: This is the old "free space particle banger" canard. I will hold to it being nuclear. In point of fact I will wager it is Li7 + H1 = 2He4. As the Equest principle says, "An easy thing to test considering the power levels." From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 16:44:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA07926 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:43:52 -0800 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA07862 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:43:42 -0800 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA28342; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:42:03 -0500 Date: 06 Dec 95 19:47:36 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Louis Kervran Message-ID: <951207004736_100433.1541_BHG63-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Mark comments on possible nuclear reactions with no radiation, and cites Kervran. I am familiar with his work, and it is indeed interesting. But, as I mentioned here some time ago, his (admittedly fascinating) 'chicken' experiment does have one problem. If the reaction is 39K + p -> 40Ca, then what happens to the 8MeV which should appear? As my own small contribution to the arcana of science, and in fond memory of the 'dead graduate student' problem, I have termed this the 'incandescent chicken' problem. Any ideas on that, Mark? (Oh, it is fun to borrow the debunker's howitzer on occasion, but I know Mark will not think I'm seriously gunning for him.) Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 19:56:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA15273 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:55:43 -0800 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA15260 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:55:40 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztal00322; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13265; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:55:26 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 134754190095340FEPRI; 06 Dec 1995 19:54:19 PST Message-Id: Date: 06 Dec 1995 19:54:19 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Louis Kervran To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/06/95 19:54:46 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/06/95 16:56 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Louis Kervran Chris: Sorry Old Chap... I DID NOT cite Kervran. That was Michael M. that made that reference. I will not use such a reference. I am quite happy to say that the FREE SPACE, PARTICLE BANGERS reaction has NOTHING to do with what is going on in CF systems. But me, Hey, I'm a pragmatist. I really don't give a rip about the theory. I'm all experiment. Typical engineer. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:55:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA24691 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:55:48 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA24677 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:55:44 -0800 Received: from net-2-124.austin.eden.com (net-2-124.austin.eden.com [204.177.170.124]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id XAA25858 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:55:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:55:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512070555.XAA25858 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/06/95 14:01 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >I will hold to >it being nuclear. In point of fact I will wager it is Li7 + H1 = 2He4. Let's find out! I'm finally totally impressed by the CETI results and want to build my own cell or get one of theirs to play with, whichever comes first. You were obviously thinking the same thing a few weeks ago when you posted about making our own beads. You know, there's alumina beads coated with _single_ metals (e.g. Pd, Ni, Pt, etc) readily available from catalyst suppliers...wonder if they'd work? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:30:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20595 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:30:23 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA20574 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:30:19 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tNaoq-0005MvC; Thu, 7 Dec 95 01:32 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:32:40 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <199512070555.XAA25858 natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Dec 6, 95 11:55:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1759 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > Let's find out! I'm finally totally impressed by the CETI results and want > to build my own cell or get one of theirs to play with, whichever comes > first. I can't resist "re-engineering" the thing before you even get started ... The original CETI cell used "end feed" electrolysis current. A cylinder of beads packed on one end and the anode Pt on the other end. The first rank of beads facing the Pt anode see the greatest electrical potential, and the following ranks of beads are mostly screened from the electrical potential. All the subordinate ranks of beads can do is sop up any H2 gas if it happens to float by (and if they are in the mood.) If it is electro- potential loading, then the subordinate ranks are not going to see nearly as much as the first ranks. Therefore, *if* electro-potential is an important ingredient, the geometry ought to be changed to more equally distribute the current density and hence, the electro-potential. My first thought is to take those tiny little glass (or plastic) beads you see for sewing decorations and thread your Pt wire through them. (You can buy them by the ton at a crafts and fabric store.) Then you can wind this "string of beads" through the CETI microspheres (active beads.) The point of these threaded beads is to supply electrical insulation to the Pt wire while keeping it in intimate and distributed non-shorting contact with the active beads. The threaded bead's other primary function is to allow electrolyte access along the lenght, i.e. at the "cracks" between the threaded beads. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:36:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA22319 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:36:52 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA22301 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:36:48 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA28140; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:37:15 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:37:15 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen In-Reply-To: <199512062201.OAA05871 big.aa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [not citing the longish post by Mandeville] Michael, you mention Kervran; have you actually read his book(s)? It may or may not be true that the French government funded him for years; personally I doubt it. The book is a collection of fancyful thinking and self-agrandisation (Important People come to ask him for advice). I'd say the reason he has never been refuted is the same as the reason it has never been refuted that the Moon is made from green cheese (don't talk to me about so-called astronauts, that was all faked, wasn't it). Kervran plays with the periodic table's nuclei as if they were Lego blocks. Noone has tried to check his "experiments" (determining total calcium in chickens etc), just as noone is trying to look for cheese in Moon samples. These scientists have very very closed minds, yes. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:58:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA26782 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:57:52 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA26765 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:57:48 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA22452; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:58:13 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:58:13 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out In-Reply-To: <199512070555.XAA25858 natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: [...] > Let's find out! I'm finally totally impressed by the CETI results and want > to build my own cell or get one of theirs to play with, whichever comes [...] Rothwell, will you be posting, or have you posted, that new CETI result to spf? It ought to put a stop to the endless and useless discussion about bloody pumps etc. This sort of power output wipes out all those piddling arguments and the 80 W input tells the whole story. My prediction is that discussion will then focus on the foam plastic cover around the cell and what might be hidden within that. Just for the record, I don't believe you could hide a 1200 W device there, no. Scott: you could electroplate those alumina beads if they come already plated with some metal. It wouldn't be quite trivial but you could do it. You'd probably be best off making them into a fluidised bed for maximum transport and even, all-round plate. It was Ni and Pd, wasn't it? No trouble really. But you'd want to have exactly the same layers as Patterson has, and that could be fiddly. Wouldn't CETI be interested in letting you do an independent verification of their cell, and give you a heap of their beads? At this point, they must surely be keen to go commercial and want many people to believe them. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 00:09:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA29635 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:09:37 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA29617 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:09:33 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA28426; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:10:03 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:10:03 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, John Logajan wrote: > I can't resist "re-engineering" the thing before you even get started ... > > > The original CETI cell used "end feed" electrolysis current. A cylinder > of beads packed on one end and the anode Pt on the other end. The first > rank of beads facing the Pt anode see the greatest electrical potential, > and the following ranks of beads are mostly screened from the electrical > potential. [...] Not bad, John, for a nonelectrochemist (some of my students don't understand this quickly). Beads are a good way to "three-dimensionalise" an electrode, but a packed bed has precisely the problem you describe so well. A much more efficient setup is to stand the tube on end and increase the flow rate, going upwards through the cell, until the beads start to float - a fluidised bed. There has to be a central bar up the axis to provide the current. The beads occasionally come to that bar to pick up electrons and pass them on to each other. Very efficient. One of the important papers on the theory of this was written by Fleischmann and Oldfield in 1971. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 01:25:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA17043 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:25:41 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA17004 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:25:34 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-20.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-20.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.20]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA25658 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:23:10 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512070923.UAA25658 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:26:49 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: isobars Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 6 Dec 95 at 7:36, MHUGO EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 12/05/95 16:47 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Re: vtx: isobars > Robin: Why not? (Re the Ni to Fe transition.) And, wouldn't an Edax find > that shift, and why not wait until the data is in before making a judgement! Stable isotopes are by definition those which do not undergo radioactive decay (including electron capture). They are mostly still around (i.e exist in nature), because they either don't decay at all, or only very slowly. So if you believe that this is occurring, then you need to supply a mechanism, which would allow for the process to occur in special circumstances. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 01:25:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA17045 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:25:41 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA17002 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:25:33 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-20.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-20.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.20]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA25669 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:23:15 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512070923.UAA25669 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:26:48 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Preliminary report from Power-Gen Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 6 Dec 95 at 15:16, Scott Little wrote: > >*** Reply to note of 12/05/95 22:54 > >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > > >I vote for nuclear. MDH > > It would take TWO miracles for it to be nuclear and not kill everyone (from > radiation) in the room at 1kw output. It only takes ONE miracle for the > thing to be the long-sought zero-point energy transducer. 3Li7 + 1H1 -> 2 * 2He4 + 17.3 MeV Yields two 8.7 MeV alpha particles, which probably wouldn't make it out of the container, and a whole bunch of low energy x-rays. Perhaps you could give us all an estimation of which x-rays might be produced, and what percentage of them would escape the container, given its stated dimensions. So that takes care of one miracle, for the other you need to accept that two _like_ charged particles _attract_ one another when in the same rest frame, as recently suggested by Charles Cagle in this forum. This is the real reason behind the phenomenon of resonant transparency of the Coulomb barrier. In other words, when two like charged particles are in resonance, they are effectively in the same rest frame, which means they attract one another, in proportion to their charge (provided that no electrons get in the way). A lattice structure provides many opportunities for resonance. In an electrolysis cell, using Li2SO4, it would not be surprising if some of the Li+ adhered to, or even slightly penetrated the cathode, where it would be subject to the resonant modes of the lattice. The other alternative is as I have already proposed in previous messages, H + Ni reactions, according to the same principle. (Though some of these would if the above mentioned mechanism is accurate, result in detectable gamma radiation). Nevertheless, Ni has a higher charge than Li, so I would expect this to fuse more readily. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 03:24:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA06690 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 03:24:33 -0800 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA06679 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 03:24:30 -0800 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA10849; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:23:12 -0500 Date: 07 Dec 95 06:28:46 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: CETI at Anaheim Message-ID: <951207112845_100433.1541_BHG28-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Mark, I'm sorry about mixing up you and Michael. A touch of my trouble (senility, I think it is). Scott, I think that strange things might well happen with beads coated with any of the 'more interesting' metals. And I think you should listen to what Dieter has to say. As a guess, I bet this huge flow rate of electrolyte has something to do with the way the effect has gone up so much. I'm curious as to the mass of metal Jed quotes, it seems suspiciously low - isn't it about the same as they had in the much smaller cell? Fluidised beds .... Putting together these messages of the past day or two, I reckon you'd see some sort of effect pretty fast. Does anybody use these high-flow electrochemical systems for other reasons? I suppose they must, judging by Dieter's comments. After all, how big an effect do you want? You don't need these 1000s:1, do you? If anything, you might want high overall excess to help look for products if any. I'm still rooting for this catalysis/ZPF type of explanation - I think the arguments of the 'anti-nuclear lobby' are pretty persuasive, and if you were to accept even a fraction of the 'fringe' CF results then that would suggest that just about anything 'goes nuclear' at the drop of a hat. I just don't see it. A pervasive effect like the ZPF sounds better. But nothing can be done until there is some experimental work done on a hunt for products. And for that you need power. Dieter, Please keep up these suggestions. I found what you said about electrochemistry quite fascinating, it may well be a key to the whole thing. That man Cravens is *good*, I bet he has done something very clever with Patterson's idea. But I really must disagree with your comments about the composition of the Moon. Surely you recall the isolation period which the astronauts had to undergo? It is claimed that this was for quarantine, but this is a typical 'cover' story. I can reveal that in fact the period in question was to get the appalling stench of the cheese off them, so that they could be readmitted to polte society. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 04:22:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18070 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:12 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18060 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:06 -0800 Received: from dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.3]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA09012 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:19:46 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512071219.XAA09012 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:23:23 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Louis Kervran Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 6 Dec 95 at 19:47, Chris Tinsley wrote: > To:Vortex > > Mark comments on possible nuclear reactions with no radiation, and cites > Kervran. I am familiar with his work, and it is indeed interesting. But, > as I mentioned here some time ago, his (admittedly fascinating) 'chicken' > experiment does have one problem. If the reaction is 39K + p -> 40Ca, then > what happens to the 8MeV which should appear? You don't really think chickens get enough to sustain them from the odd seed of grain do you ;^) Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 04:22:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18102 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:23 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18069 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:11 -0800 Received: from dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.3]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA09000 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:19:39 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512071219.XAA09000 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:23:22 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 6 Dec 95 at 23:55, Scott Little wrote: > >*** Reply to note of 12/06/95 14:01 > >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > > >I will hold to > >it being nuclear. In point of fact I will wager it is Li7 + H1 = 2He4. > > Let's find out! I'm finally totally impressed by the CETI results and want > to build my own cell or get one of theirs to play with, whichever comes > first. You were obviously thinking the same thing a few weeks ago when you > posted about making our own beads. You know, there's alumina beads coated > with _single_ metals (e.g. Pd, Ni, Pt, etc) readily available from catalyst > suppliers...wonder if they'd work? Scott, I have asked myself why Cravens used plastic beads, when metal beads would stand high temperatures much better. I think the answer may be that the current density through a 2 micron layer of metal on a plastic bead would be much higher than through an all metal bead. Furthermore, I suspect that multiple layers may be important. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 04:23:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18389 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:23:53 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA18378 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:23:51 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA02076; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:24:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:24:20 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI at Anaheim In-Reply-To: <951207112845_100433.1541_BHG28-2 CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 7 Dec 1995, Chris Tinsley wrote: > I think that strange things might well happen with beads coated with any > of the 'more interesting' metals. And I think you should listen to what If you plate the metal(s) you want on top of the base layer, the nature of that would not matter too much, if at all, provided you leave few pores. > of effect pretty fast. Does anybody use these high-flow electrochemical The most recent review of the subject I have is from 1980. It is by Coeuret, who holds a 1967 patent on the idea, as do Fleischmann et al, 1970. In this review, the focus is on the recovery of metals from solution, and other applications mentioned are electrochemical synthesis, in particular that of hydrogen peroxide and organics. In electrosynthesis, you want high rates of transport of the substrate to the electrode, and product away from it, in the case of soluble products. The fluidised bed gives you that. Another example I can think of is where what really amounts to a fluidised bed of graphite particles is jetted at printed circuit boards, to etch away the copper electrochemically. We have several projects going here that might end up using the fbe. John Logajan's keen insight notwithstanding, I reckon that in the CETI cell, rather low current densities are required, and a packed bed might be OK. You would get some voltage drop along the cell (vide the 8V I saw mentioned, of which only about 1.4 is due to electrolysis, the rest is resistive drop), but there would be hydrogen evolution at all beads. No doubt these CETI people have an electrochemist on tap, if not among the team. Green cheese: thanks, Chris, that's all I wanted to know. So we have double proof: 1. The moon landing was faked, the astronauts never went there, so the green cheese was not disproved and therefore must be there; 2. when they came back, they had it on them, proving it's there alright. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:01:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA23707 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:01:03 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA23691 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:01:00 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA00696; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:01:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:01:29 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out In-Reply-To: <199512071219.XAA09000 tornado.netspace.net.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > I have asked myself why Cravens used plastic beads, when metal beads > would stand high temperatures much better. I think the answer may be > that the current density through a 2 micron layer of metal on a > plastic bead would be much higher than through an all metal bead. > Furthermore, I suspect that multiple layers may be important. Not so; current density is total current divided by total electrode area, which is independent of what is inside. Plastic or glass is used to get a fluidised bed at lower flow rates, normally. Why CETI chose them, I wouldn't know. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:31:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA02857 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:31:21 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA02744 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:31:02 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA04049; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:29:39 -0500 Date: 07 Dec 95 10:26:32 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Will report to spf later Message-ID: <951207152631_72240.1256_EHB92-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Deiter: I will report on the Power-Gen demo on s.p.f. in a week or two. Like I said, the report here was "preliminary." I have many observations, photographs, and an audio recording. I need to think about this carefully. There are some confusing aspects of the test. For example, at one point their control blank was not blank. It was producing heat. There is evidence that was an electrical short plus chemical heat (destruction and gunk), but I want to review it carefully. They control cell was wrecked. It had to be changed out for a resistance heater. I believe Robert Bass already described the CETI demo over on spf. Anyway, there is no rush I hope. I don't mind discussing it here where there is a more forgiving atmosphere, but before I talk about there, or finish the Infinite Energy article, I want to get the facts wired down. That is not to say I will report the exact make and model of the muffin fan or the number of loops in the 'cooling tower' (as Cravens calls it), but as always, I have those details filed away and I want to ponder them. I wish I had had more time to play with the calorimeter. I may need to consult with Cravens about some details. He & the others will be in Chicago next week for discussions of the collaborative experiments with U. Ill and U. Mo. By the way, George Miley, Tom Passell and others who have been working with CETI all came. We had a jolly time together. They send their regards to friends and colleagues in the CF biz. George says the cell is still cooking along fine. He has no doubt about his calorimetry or the large scale Power-Gen calorimeter. It was a bit crude we all agree. It was cobbled together with heavy duty parts to deal with the large heat flow. It was larger than they planned for at first. I will post more detail about Power-Gen here after I get back to Atlanta. I need to think. I am slow. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:41:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA06242 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:41:01 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA06192 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:40:50 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tNiTN-0005RoC; Thu, 7 Dec 95 09:43 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:43:01 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: from "Dieter Britz" at Dec 7, 95 09:10:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 659 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz writes: > A much more efficient setup is to stand the tube on end and increase the > flow rate, going upwards through the cell, until the beads start to float > - a fluidised bed. Ah, so that's what fluidised bed means. (Ya learn something new every day.) In that case, Patterson describes a fluidised bed embodiment in his original patent. It didn't make sense to me at the time (couldn't see how electricity was conducted through the floating beads.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 08:37:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA26556 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:37:34 -0800 Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA26448 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:37:16 -0800 Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA27870 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:36:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id LAA22152; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:36:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:36:47 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199512071636.LAA22152 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (jlogajan@mirage.skypoint.com) Subject: vtx: Fluidized Bed Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "John Logajan" said: > Ah, so that's what fluidised bed means. (Ya learn something new every day.) > In that case, Patterson describes a fluidised bed embodiment in his > original patent. It didn't make sense to me at the time (couldn't > see how electricity was conducted through the floating beads.) I'm beginning to suspect that, if ZPE is involved, then the fluidized bed is what is getting this from laboratory to usable scale. (There will be one lowest resistance path through the bed. At gaps in this path, you have two conductors in close proximity with an ionic fluid in between--no Casmir Force. But the current flow concentrates in this small area and when the ions are locally exhausted you get a small insulating volume. Now the Casmir Force drives the pellets together, the emf disappears, and the surface ions are freed. Repeat constantly.) Also if anyone knows the principles of CETI, and they are looking for financing, they may be close enough to building home water heaters. I'd be glad to help arrange financing, and probably put some up myself... Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 10:36:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA09673 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:36:19 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA09522 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:35:48 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztcs25908; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22557; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:34:05 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 815532100095341FEPRI; 07 Dec 1995 10:32:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 07 Dec 1995 10:32:10 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Fluidized Bed To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/07/95 10:32:53 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/07/95 09:16 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Fluidized Bed CETI 14332 Montfort, Suit 6302 Dallas, TX 75240 Phone: 214-458-7620, Fax 458-7690 - Chief "Officers" Jim Redding and Paul Vorhies, Chief experimentalist: Dennis Cravens, Cloudcroft New Mexico. Invention attribution, Jim Patterson Sarasota Florida: Titles of Patents: Methodology for Electrolysis of Water, System for Electrolysis of Water, Metal Plated Microsphere Catalyst, and Process for Producing Coated Microspheres. - They are looking for $1,000,000 flat to sell a license. I estimate that Jim Patterson may have upwards of $250,000 into Patents, equipment, salary(s) so far. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 13:40:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA18846 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:39:46 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA18778 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:39:36 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA21827; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:39:31 -0800 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:39:29 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Redesigning CETI cell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, John Logajan wrote: > I can't resist "re-engineering" the thing before you even get started ... > > > The original CETI cell used "end feed" electrolysis current. A cylinder > of beads packed on one end and the anode Pt on the other end. The first > rank of beads facing the Pt anode see the greatest electrical potential, > and the following ranks of beads are mostly screened from the electrical > potential. Would this be so? If the electrolyte is highly conductive and the beads all touch each other, the system will behave as an electrochemical capacitor with a half-cell reaction layer separating the beads from the electrolyte. As long as the voltage drop across this layer is >> than the voltage drop from the resistance of the electrolyte within the bead layer, the charge flow will work its way into all the nooks and crannies. This would happen because the reaction layer on the bead surfaces acts like a large resistance compared to the resistance of the electrolyte. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 15:23:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA29117 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:22:33 -0800 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA29028 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:22:09 -0800 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA28631; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:17:46 -0500 Date: 07 Dec 95 18:16:02 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out Message-ID: <951207231601_100060.173_JHB103-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin said, >> I think the answer may be that the current density through a 2 micron layer of metal on a plastic bead would be much higher than through an all metal bead. << Looking at this cell design and taking into consideration such as the above, is it reasonable to suggest that it might be not only the thickness of the metal layer but also the point contact provided by the shape of the beads, i.e. spherical. If the process of ou requires very high current densities only at the surface where the H has been adsorbed, then spheres with thin metal skins provide the perfect configuration. I still wonder why everyone has concentrated on plastic beads which must be vulnerable to heat, and not tried alumina or other ceramics. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 00:02:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09657 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:01:29 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA09644 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:01:26 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA31065; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:01:57 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:01:57 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Fluidized Bed In-Reply-To: <199512071636.LAA22152 spectre.mitre.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [...] > I'm beginning to suspect that, if ZPE is involved, then the > fluidized bed is what is getting this from laboratory to usable scale. > (There will be one lowest resistance path through the bed. At gaps in > this path, you have two conductors in close proximity with an ionic > fluid in between--no Casmir Force. But the current flow concentrates > in this small area and when the ions are locally exhausted you get a > small insulating volume. Now the Casmir Force drives the pellets > together, the emf disappears, and the surface ions are freed. Repeat > constantly.) One obvious question, and I think the great weakness in this ZPE scenario, is: Why should this happen specifically in this kind of cell, and not in others? Beads have been fluidised before, and they didn't casimir. Are you postulating that by virtue of water electrolysis at a certain kind of electrode surface, that surface becomes prone to the Casimir effect? -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 00:32:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA16624 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:32:51 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA16608 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:32:45 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA01071; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:33:17 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:33:16 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Redesigning CETI cell In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, John Logajan wrote: [...] > > The original CETI cell used "end feed" electrolysis current. A cylinder > > of beads packed on one end and the anode Pt on the other end. The first > > rank of beads facing the Pt anode see the greatest electrical potential, > > and the following ranks of beads are mostly screened from the electrical > > potential. > > Would this be so? If the electrolyte is highly conductive and the beads > all touch each other, the system will behave as an electrochemical > capacitor with a half-cell reaction layer separating the beads from the > electrolyte. As long as the voltage drop across this layer is >> than > the voltage drop from the resistance of the electrolyte within the bead > layer, the charge flow will work its way into all the nooks and > crannies. This would happen because the reaction layer on the bead > surfaces > acts like a large resistance compared to the resistance of the electrolyte. We are getting very electrochemical lately, aren't we? An e'chem. reaction needs two electrodes: the working electrode, the processes at which are of interest to us; and the counter electrode (CE). The two are separated by the electrolyte. Here, the working electrode is a tightly packed bed of metal- plated beads, so we can assume that the whole bed has the same potential. I take it from what John wrote that the counter electrode is at one end. The current from each bead has to go through the electrolyte to get to the CE, and there is not so much electrolyte - in a packed bed of spheres, about 30% of the total volume. So along the way, there is iR drop, so that the beads further away from the CE "see" a lower-potential CE. This is analogous to current going along a resistive wire. Note that the total cell voltage is about 8V, and no electrochemical reaction requires that much. Most of that is iR, and simply heats up the cell (but not with 1200W !). Rothwell: how much did the control cell heat up? I promise not to tell Dick Blue... If there was a delta-T comparable to the 16C in the working cell, CETI is in trouble, nao e verdade? In fact, any delta-T above about 1C is greater than the total input power (80W) to the setup, at a 20 ml/s flow rate. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 00:49:36 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA19964 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:49:35 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA19955 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:49:33 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tNyX5-00058QC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 02:51 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Redesigning CETI cell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 02:51:54 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: from "William Beaty" at Dec 7, 95 01:39:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1829 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty writes: > As long as the voltage drop across this layer is >> than > the voltage drop from the resistance of the electrolyte within the bead > layer, the charge flow will work its way into all the nooks and > crannies. This would happen because the reaction layer on the bead > surfaces acts like a large resistance compared to the resistance of > the electrolyte. I have this mental model: R(1) (-)-+-/\/\/\/-+-/\/\/\/---/\/\/\/---/\/\/\/---/\/\/\/-+-(+) | | | V(-) V(1) V(+) The above is the electrolyte resistance, with a portion of the electrolyte labled R(1) with voltage drop V(1), (V(-) = ground.) Now add a "bead" to ground. R(1) (-)-+-/\/\/\/-+-/\/\/\/-+-/\/\/\/---/\/\/\/---/\/\/\/-+-(+) | | | | | V(1) \ V(+) | / R(2) | \ | / |------(bead)-------| V(-) V(2) Since the bead is going to make V(2) pretty close to V(-) due to the bead's low resistance compared to the electrolyte resistance, V(1) cannot help but drop due to current sharing. V(1) might fall below the voltage required to carry out the chemical reaction, so bead surface at depth where V(1) is present might quit reacting. You seem to be saying that R(2) becomes large due to surface effects. I agree that if R(2) did act in such a way, the rest of the beads would tend to get a more evenly distributed share of the current. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 00:58:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21562 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:58:56 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA21554 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:58:54 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tNyg8-00058QC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 03:01 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Redesigning CETI cell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 03:01:16 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: from "Dieter Britz" at Dec 8, 95 09:33:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 724 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz wrote: > If there was a delta-T comparable to the 16C in the working cell, CETI > is in trouble, nao e verdade? Not necessarily. As I read it, the "control" was running the same electrolyte and was running with similar electrolysis power. They didn't say what made it a "control" -- was it gold beads??? We have seen claims that the CETI device works with Pd, Ni/Pd, and Ni alone. Perhaps Au (or whatever their control is) isn't really a control after all. Too bad they had to find out in the middle of a demo. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 03:33:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA14635 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 03:33:53 -0800 Received: from nsx.rd.honda.co.jp (nsx.rd.honda.co.jp [202.33.91.65]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA14617 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 03:33:48 -0800 Received: from saber.rd.honda.co.jp by nsx.rd.honda.co.jp; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30May95-0243PM) id AA19950; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:32:23 +0900 Received: by saber.rd.honda.co.jp; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30May95-0308PM) id AA17272; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:32:23 +0900 Received: from ccpost.w.rd.honda.co.jp by saber.rd.honda.co.jp; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30May95-0308PM) id AA17366; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:32:21 +0900 Received: from cc:Mail SMTPLINK 2.1 by ccpost.w.rd.honda.co.jp id AA818483201; Fri, 08 Dec 95 20:32:19 JST Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 20:32:19 JST From: "kubotar" Message-Id: <9512088184.AA818483201 ccpost.w.rd.honda.co.jp> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vtx: VTX:MORE St Pete data Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You may be mistaken me for another. I can't understand you. What is the vortex-1? I've never sent such message to you. If I am obliviously, I shall apologize to you for it. Could you explain it for me? My E-mail number is kubotar w.rd.honda.co.jp. Could you confirm it? Sincerely yours. ------------------------------------------------------------ >Message was resent -- Original recipients were: To: vortex-l eskimo.com--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Bill Page said: >> Now we should estimate possible error of the tests. Obviously, the >> error for the equation (1) cannot exceed 1.5%. Therefore, 1.036 = >> 103.6% is out of the errors range. >> > >The assumption that the error in (1) cannot exceed 1.5% is completely >unrealistic. I, too, was struck by Onoochin's statement above. Chris, can you please ask him to explain _why_ he thinks the error cannot exceed 1.5%. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 07:38:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA09148 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:37:58 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA09122 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:37:54 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id HAA12933; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:37:51 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:37:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: DID ANYONE ELSE RECEIVE THIS? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Did anyone else on vortex-L receive a message from 0000-uucp with the subject: Warning From uucp? If not, did anyone very recently (like today) receive a copy of an old message from Charles Hope with the subject: Re: vtx: SHOULD VORTEX-L SPLIT? and Charles' address reading as: ? If so, something bad is about to happen. There's this damned computer in South Africa which awhile back flooded freenrg-list with hundreds of bounced copies of all of the list's message traffic, which vortex-L promptly sent back to that computer again along with the normal traffic, which bounced, etc., and a feedback cycle built up continuously. I think I caught it in time this time. If not, I'll have to switch vortex-L into "moderated" mode, then hand-forward all the message traffic while deleting all the bounced messages. We may be lucky and only get a few bounces, I hope. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page >From apollo.is.co.za!escape.com!chope eskimo.comFri Dec 8 07:30:14 1995 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:20:21 -0500 (EST) Reply to: apollo.is.co.za!eskimo.com!vortex-l eskimo.com To: eskimo.com!vortex-l eskimo.com On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > > How about "vortex-L" staying as it is, with a wide variety of topics, but > adding a second list "vortcore-L" for low-traffic experimental results > and discussion only? Neither one need be limited only to water-vortex > topics. This is the best suggestion I have seen so far. This affords some of us to tangentialize in the manner that is vitally important to creative thought, without hampering our Eastern friends who pay by the character, or those of us who are too busy to read all but the most crucial reports. Let us make sure that vortcore is a subset of vortex so that those that desire the broader coverage can simply subscribe to vortex and be assured all the most salacious information available. > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 08:51:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA03452 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:51:30 -0800 Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA03396 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:51:20 -0800 Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA10040 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:51:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id LAA24515; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:51:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:51:15 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199512081651.LAA24515 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (message from Dieter Britz on Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:01:57 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: vtx: Fluidized Bed Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz asks: > One obvious question, and I think the great weakness in this ZPE > scenario, is: Why should this happen specifically in this kind of > cell, and not in others? Beads have been fluidised before, and > they didn't casimir. Are you postulating that by virtue of water > electrolysis at a certain kind of electrode surface, that surface > becomes prone to the Casimir effect? Good question, but my first answer is another question: Are you sure it hasn't? CETI seems to have spent a year or so optimizing for the phenomena, and the cell they demonstrated a just couple of months ago was in the range where it was not obviously over unity even if you were looking very carefully. Second, I suspect that the conditions to get a large effect are very critical in the CETI cell. You must have noticed the number of questions about the plastic substrate for the beads--in my model the big gain there is from the compressibility. Imagine two beads just kissing with the point of contact surrounded by a small volume of non-conducting fluid or a gas bubble. The Casmir effect should continue to squeeze the beads together pushing the fluid or bubble outward. Now you have two beads squeezed by the Casmir effect such that say 20% of their surface is in contact. That should squeeze the maximum amount of work from a single instance of the effect. (Remember that the first day's test resulted in a lot of broken beads?) The Casmir effect cares not whether the two conductors are electrically connected or even touching in spots, but the maximum energy gain/release comes in the last few micrometers. Plastic beads with a conducting coating looks like a good way to maximize that, but for a durable production unit, the best beads may be a conducting plastic. (If I were to guess, I'd say that in that case the problem would be getting both positive and negative ions to adhere to the surface. The final product might use two different species of beads.) Just to emphasize my position. I expect that when a non-conductive void is created in a conductor, you have to pay Mr. Casmir. If the process then reverses, you get the energy back. You have to have a non-revesable process where you change the geometry of the non-conducting region to extract net energy. This could be done by creating cavitation bubbles then stretching them before they colapse, or chase them out of a crack, extracting energy all the way, or as above mashing a gas bubble or non-conducting fluid region out of shape. (The more I think about it, the more it seems that it is gas bubbles that are getting squashed in the fluidized bed, which would mean that the electrolysis is just creating bubbles which get reused many times. An easy test for this would be to discontinue the current and inject small bubbles in the gas flow. Might not work _as well_ because the bubbles would not form in intimate contact with the spheres, but it should work.) (Another interesting aside. This implies that Pons and Fleischman may get their results not only by having the bubbles created deep in surface cracks, but in having the electrode material flexible enough that the cracks close, and that it may take months for the right alloying to occur.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 10:03:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA00777 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:03:14 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA00700 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:03:02 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztgi22877; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09389; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:02:49 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 454001100095342FEPRI; 08 Dec 1995 10:01:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Dec 1995 10:01:10 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: CETI Demonstration To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/08/95 10:01:38 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: CETI Demonstration - Here is some info on the CETI demo from Jim Redding one of the priciples of the business end of the operation.... - Monday: 8 hours at the 1300 watt level. Tuesday 3 hours at the 600 watt level. Wednesday 8 hours at the 1000 watt level - Total of almost 80,000 BTU. Same electrolyte. May have replaced some beads, but not a majority. Measurements made with TC's AND mercury thermometers. Some measurements made VERY conservatively. (I.e., like putting the output into an uninsulated plastic receptical and then making the measurement ofthe output temp.) - Flow measured by stopwatch and grad. cylinder. Make of it what you will. CETI are not fools. They realize they "jumped the gun" a little. - Thus they are pulling back a bit until they can get their two (separate) University contacts to back them on these claims. That may take a couple of months. New plating process for beads is NOT patented yet. And takes a lot of hand work. - Hang on the ride is going to be fun! - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 10:04:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01230 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:04:21 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01144 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:04:07 -0800 Received: from net-1-233.austin.eden.com (net-1-137.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.137]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA25842 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:03:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:03:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512081803.MAA25842 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Jed's prelim report X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: would someone please send me (little eden.com) a copy of Jed's prelim report from PowerGen (the one with the actual data in it)...I lost my copy somehow. Thanks From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 10:38:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA14091 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:38:05 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14029 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:37:51 -0800 Received: from net-1-233.austin.eden.com (net-1-196.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.196]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA28250 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:37:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:37:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512081837.MAA28250 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: more data please, Jed X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed (or anyone else who attended PowerGen), You gave us the delta-T's for a couple of runs, what were the absolute T's? (approximate is OK) Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:59:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06109 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:56:10 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05826 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:55:29 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA19907; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:54:06 -0500 Date: 08 Dec 95 15:52:36 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Non-blank blank and other problems Message-ID: <951208205236_72240.1256_EHB28-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Deiter asks about Power-Gen electrochemical blank which was not blank. During the first run the electrochemical blank self-destructed and it had to be replaced with a joule heater in subsequent runs. I mentioned this in my Preliminary Report and Robert Bass blandly described it as follows: "The control cell was drawing 1.6 Watts (specifically, 0.33 Amps at 4.75 Volts) and contained what was called '10-shot' metallic beads. The rise in temperature of the water through the control cell was a paltry 2.6 degrees Centigrade." I did not see it get as high as 2.6 deg C. That was "tin-shot" (BBs) not "10-shot" and 2.6 deg C * 1200 ml = 3380 calories or 218 watts, but I Don't Think So. When Dennis noticed it was getting hot, he figured it was short circuited so he turned it off. I was too busy observing the other cell, so I did not notice whether the input power had increased. Later, Dennis took the blank cell apart and confirmed that the plastic separator between the anode and cathode had failed. (I am not sure what happened to it.) The BBs had a lot of debris and gunk in them, which must have slowed down the water flow, elevating the temperature. Again, I was concentrating on the hot cell flow rate, which we measured twice during that run. I don't recall we measured the control flow at all. We were busy! This was a trade show demonstration of a prototype, not a laboratory experiment. There is no computer record of power levels in the control cell, and I was watching the other cell, so I do not know when it shorted out or how much power it consumed when it did, and I do not know if the flow rate was reduced. I can only speculate that these are the likely causes of the 2.6 deg C temperature rise. Patterson remarked in passing that he has observed excess heat from tin, but I doubt he has seen 218 watts from 40 ml of BBs. As John Logajan pointed out there are even reports of excess heat from gold. If you believe every CF paper you read, it is getting harder and harder to find an electrochemical CF blank! Be that as it may, I do not think anyone has ever observed lots of heat from gold or tin, and we know this particular cell shorted out, so I expect there is a prosaic explanation. Any trade-show demonstration will be marred by technical problems, some due to bad luck, some due to the fact that you have to cram the equipment into boxes, set it up and run it under appalling conditions while you survive on overpriced abominable sandwiches and coffee. The cells, reservoir and tubes had to be assembled, disassembled and moved frequently. Visible dirt and debris accumulated in the water, even though there was a water filter. Under the circumstances, it is amazing the gadget worked at all. I observed four runs during the Power-Gen conference. Run #1 was marred by the problem on the control side, but it did show convincing heat in the CF cell. Runs 2 and 3 went perfectly. I was able to verify the flow rate and the inlet and outlet temperatures with two thermistors. To measure the outlet temperature I put the thermistor probes into the water drawn off when we tested the flow rate. We turned off the control side Joule heater, waited until the thermocouples showed zero Delta T, and drew off a sample on the control side to confirm the inlet temperature. That worked fine, and it confirmed the Delta T really was between 6 and 9 degrees in those tests, with only a fraction of a watt input. Run #4 also went well. But it was at 6:00 in the evening, we were tired and we did not do a good job confirming the water temperature externally. We drew off a 10 second 160 ml sample into a small capacity precision graduated cylinder and we waited too long before measuring the water temperature. The thermocouples showed a 15 deg Delta T but the thermistors in the 160 ml sample showed only 3 or 4 degrees. A few minutes after we poured the water from the cylinder into a bottle, Dennis observed that the thick plastic cylinder was quite hot. It absorbed a lot of heat from the 160 ml sample, because it has thick walls and a small capacity, so the liquid is in contact with more wall surface area. I wanted to run that test again, drawing off 250 ml into the thin wall larger plastic container used in Runs 2 & 3, but it was late in the day and CETI had another group coming in to observe the cell, so I did not have time to do it again. I believe the 15 deg C differential thermocouple reading must have been right, because the thermocouples had been right in every other test I performed over three days, and in previous tests where I swapped them around and put them into a glass of water with my thermistors. I do not doubt the result, but I am a perfectionist and I wish I could have made it three good shots in a row. I wish that I had had more time to experiment with the equipment, and more time to independently verify the water temperature and power levels. I could not ask CETI to push everyone else out of the room and let me spend an few hours playing around with their equipment. At ICCF5 there were long periods when everyone was at the conference sessions and the CETI calorimeter was available for close examination. The ICCF5 and SOFE calorimeters had better instrumentation, and provision was made to allow people to measure power levels and voltage from the thermocouples. The Power-Gen system was more of a "hands-off" demonstration, with no provision for allowing people to take their own measurements. This is what you would expect. It reflects the difference between a physics conference with a few hundred participants and an industry trade show with 14,000 people. In spite of the technical problems and mistakes that marred some of the test runs, I have no doubt that the cell produced far more energy out than in. Consider tests 2 and 3, at low power levels. With only 0.1 watts input and a flow of 1 liter per minute, there should not have been *any* detectible difference between the inlet and outlet water temperatures. That's 6 joules per minute, or 1.4 calories, or 0.0014 deg C temperature rise with that much water. Yet I measured a 6 to 8 Deg C Delta T with the thermistors, and I could feel that the water was hotter coming out than going in. During the conference we did not have an opportunity to run the cells for a long time in order to "go far beyond chemistry" but in the weeks leading up to the conference the cells were run for many hours, at more than 1000 watts, and many other CF cells have been run for extended periods. The one thing this calorimeter badly needed was a good pair of flowmeters for the CF and control cell. As I said before, it did not have flowmeters because they did not have time to purchase new ones of the right capacity. A few weeks ago they decided they needed a faster flow rate to ensure adequate cooling during the trade show. They were getting more heat than they had planned for and they wanted to keep the Delta T below 20 degrees, to ensure safety. They increased the flow rate by reducing impedance: they used larger diameter plastic tubes and they cut the in-line mixers in half. That did the trick, but the flow exceeded the capacity of the electronic flowmeters and they did not have time to get new ones. That is a shame, but the seriousness of the problem should not be exaggerated. A graduated cylinder and a stop watch are okay, especially with this calorimeter, which has more than 2 liters of water circulating. As noted above, the control cell flow rate may have changed. But on the CF cell side, once the flow was established it did not change measurably. I measured it three times during one test observation and it was the same as far as I could detect. We left the valves alone and the next day it was the same to within 20 ml per minute, or 2%. We were careful to hold the plastic tube at the proper level while diverting the water into the graduated cylinder. I have lots more to say about this, but I also have some splendid photographs, mailed to me overnight by Akira Kawasaki. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, maybe I should scan a few and zap them to John Logajan, who can put them on his WWW home page display. I think a UUENCODE file here would be too long and disruptive, especially since many people cannot decode and display them. (A picture may be worth a thousand words but it takes up a thousand times more disk space.) People who would like UUENCODED photos should contact me directly. (If you do not hear back, remind me next week. I have a cold and I might go home early and get some rest.) - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 15:36:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09823 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:36:44 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA09784 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:36:36 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tOCNW-0005OBC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 17:38 CST Message-Id: Subject: vtx: Oops, and I have Jed's pictures To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:38:58 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1080 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry for reposting Jed's message to this forum, I wasn't watching what I was doing. Also: I have four pictures (gifs) from Jed of the CETI PowerGen demo, available on my web page, url below. Jed, I used to consider gif's the standard, but I think jpeg's are probably more appropriate now. (gifs are fine, but you can get more picture in the same size jpeg.) Netscape has native jpeg support (and 70% of the market share!), and most people can install jpeg viewers as helper applications for other browsers. Also, I should point out to people who haven't made the leap to web-ability, that Windows95 comes with its native Winsockets. So all you need nowdays is an internet provider (typically $25/month) Windows95 (or old windows and third party winsocks) and the freeware Netscape. There is more and more each day showing up on the web, so I highly recommending getting *wired.* :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 15:48:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA12680 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:52:23 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA12505 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:51:58 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztgp07656; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12003; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:51:50 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 363750110095342FEPRI; 08 Dec 1995 11:50:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Dec 1995 11:50:11 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: more data please, Jed To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/08/95 11:50:36 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/08/95 10:54 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: more data please, Jed I have it from Jim Redding: Base temp was 31 degrees C, delta T was above that. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 15:54:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA21889 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:36:20 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA21760 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:36:00 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztgw23455; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13946; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:35:50 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 721435130095342FEPRI; 08 Dec 1995 13:35:13 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Dec 1995 13:35:13 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Non-blank blank and other problems To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/08/95 13:35:13 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/08/95 13:23 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Non-blank blank and other problems GOOD WORK JED! Thanks for the level headed, hard headed---thoughtful approach. - We've got a tiger by the tail here. I'm particularily impressed by the two comments: 1. "I swapped the TC's", and 2. "You could feel the heat". Let's put it this way, if there was a TC error, it probably would show up in a marked change when you swapped the TC's. #2, you essentially cannot feel warmth from a 35.degree C source, it is too near to your body temp, but when you start getting close to 40 degrees C you can feel the warmth (in point of fact, the input should have felt neutral or cool, at 30 to 31 degrees C). So this is the "physical reality" test. The only other factor is "integrated amount" which I have discussed earlier. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 17:14:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA15775 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:14:56 -0800 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA15767 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:14:53 -0800 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA15179; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:13:32 -0500 Date: 08 Dec 95 20:10:39 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Photo captions Message-ID: <951209011038_72240.1256_EHB80-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I zapped John Logajan 4 photos in GIF format converted to UUENCODE format. (If you don't know what that means, forget it. It ain't worth figuring out.) Here are the captions: Pix 1. CETI's Power-Gen demonstration calorimeter. Items shown from left to right: part of control box; reservoir with 'cooling tower' and muffin fan on top; CF cell; control cell. Bottles of who-knows-what. Meters shown on bottom: cell voltmeter, cell differential thermocouple, cell ammeter, control ammeter, control voltmeter; control differential thermocouple (see close-up in Pix 3) Pix 2. Close up of control box and reservoir. Meter on top of control box shows .66 ac amps. Volts were a bit high, at 140 VAC, so total input when this picture was taken was 92 W. Meter on right is cell volts, it reads 9.15. Cylindrical objects hanging in the reservoir water in front of filter are auxiliary pre-heaters. I believe the small one is 50 W and the large one 100 W. The pump is driven by the 50 W magnet motor in the black section below. This is a standard heavy duty aquarium pump. The electrolyte return hose (top right) fits loosely into the connector on top of the reservoir. The loose fitting lets the effluent electrolysis gas out, and the muffin fan blows the gas into the wide world as it cools off the fluid in the coiled tubes. Pix 3. A close-up of the other meters. The Delta T temperature is 8.5 Deg C. Cell amps are 0.023. This photo was taken at the same time as Pix 2, so input power is 9.15 V * 0.023 A = 0.2 W. The flow rate was ~1 l so output is ~640 W. The control cell is turned off, amps are zero. Pix 4. An indistinct close-up showing an old thermocouple probe unit. This is a "T" pipe. A plastic in-line mixer is sticking out of the top, the right side is plugged up with the thermocouple probe and covered with blue sealant. The end of the probe is wrapped in white plastic (not sure what). The water comes through the in-line mixer, takes a sharp left turn right on top of the probe and enters the cell. In Pix 1, the units can be seen sticking out of the right side of the right-hand control cell. . . . I must say, it is a pleasure writing for this forum, knowing that I will not be bombarded with snide comments and nitpicking "challenges." I think maybe I'll keep posting here and forget about s.p.f. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 17:30:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA20994 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:30:48 -0800 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA20975 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:30:44 -0800 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA18052; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:29:25 -0500 Date: 08 Dec 95 20:28:23 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Didn't swap TC probes this time Message-ID: <951209012822_72240.1256_EHB156-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Re: Comments by Mark Hugo. I should make it clear that I did not swap the TC probes this time. I did that last time Dennis let me monkey around with his toys. I am sure he has swapped 'em recently. That's how you check for a weak battery or what-have-you. That is a nifty little meter. It is an Omega "Microprocessor Thermometer." You press a button and it cycles through the readings for T1, T2, and T1-T1. Or you press another button and leave it on T1-T2. I guess microprocessors are good for something after all. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 18:07:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA01520 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:06:37 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA01475 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:06:31 -0800 Received: from s3c1p0.aa.net (s3c1p1.aa.net [204.157.220.141]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09711 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:47:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:47:57 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512090147.RAA09711 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Photo captions Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > . . . I must say, it is a pleasure writing for this forum, knowing that I >will not be bombarded with snide comments and nitpicking "challenges." I think >maybe I'll keep posting here and forget about s.p.f. > >- Jed > great idea!!! get webbable. how can i help? if wanted, i'll tell you exactly how and what software to use ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 18:07:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA01526 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:06:38 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA01497 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:06:33 -0800 Received: from s3c1p0.aa.net (s3c1p1.aa.net [204.157.220.141]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09567 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:45:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:45:21 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512090145.RAA09567 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Oops, and I have Jed's pictures Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Jed >There is more and >more each day showing up on the web, so I highly recommending getting >*wired.* :-) > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > amen!!! (it is verrrry adicting, though) ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 01:30:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA18120 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 01:29:14 -0800 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA18108 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 01:29:12 -0800 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA06003; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 04:27:54 -0500 Date: 09 Dec 95 04:35:14 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau Message-ID: <951209093513_100433.1541_BHG33-3 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex I had a telephone call from Peter yesterday, actually he was asking if the Takahashi motor was worth looking at while he's over here in civilised parts. I reported what I'd seen for myself, and what the video showed - but confirmed that there was no secure *evidence* of over-unity performance. He told me something which he said he didn't mind my talking about, namely that he finds that to explain some of his experimental work the simplest thing is to suggest that fog (suspended water droplets of diameter < 100um) has a lower specific heat than bulk water. I thought this an entertaining notion, a droplet of that kind has some similarities with a tiny air bubble in water... Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 02:24:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA24623 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 02:24:52 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA24589 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 02:24:44 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-43.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-43.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.43]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA25175 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:22:24 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512091022.VAA25175 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:26:12 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 7 Dec 95 at 16:01, Dieter Britz wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > I have asked myself why Cravens used plastic beads, when metal beads > > would stand high temperatures much better. I think the answer may be > > that the current density through a 2 micron layer of metal on a > > plastic bead would be much higher than through an all metal bead. > > Furthermore, I suspect that multiple layers may be important. > > Not so; current density is total current divided by total electrode area, > which is independent of what is inside. Plastic or glass is used to get a > fluidised bed at lower flow rates, normally. Why CETI chose them, I > wouldn't know. > > -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk For a solid electrode this would be true. However with many beads touching at single points, and others not touching at all, the current will flow from bead to bead, inward at some points on the surface, and outward at others. It will of necessity be conducted through the surface layers, which are very thin, rather than through the body of the bead. This will lead to higher current densities within the metal, parallel to the surface, than would be the case with solid beads. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 03:32:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA02512 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 03:32:11 -0800 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA02502 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 03:32:06 -0800 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA11024; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 06:30:48 -0500 Date: 09 Dec 95 06:30:05 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: vtx: Photo captions Message-ID: <951209113004_100060.173_JHB27-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed said: >> I must say, it is a pleasure writing for this forum, knowing that I will not be bombarded with snide comments and nitpicking "challenges." I think maybe I'll keep posting here and forget about s.p.f. << I agree, I've taken to lurking only occasionally on science forum, but find this restricted list much more interesting and less combatant. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 05:51:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA17415 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 05:51:14 -0800 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA17387 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 05:51:04 -0800 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0tOPgw-000MQPC; Sat, 9 Dec 95 15:51 EET Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:51:53 +0200 (EET) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: Triumph and Problems? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It is a saying , something like " a victory analyzed too long cannot be distinguished from a defeat". However, regarding PowerGen, I am under the impression that no analyze can change it from a real triumph to something else. We are in the realm of kW excess and that's fine. It is obvious that the progress in this very field and in the great field as well is going toward an exponential rate and even Jonesitis cannot stop or slow down it. Let's better focus on the essential experiments which can solve the great puzzle : where is coming this energy from? All the best wishes from Peter. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:02:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA11444 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:02:16 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA11413 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:02:11 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tORlK-0005NwC; Sat, 9 Dec 95 10:04 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:04:34 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <951209093513_100433.1541_BHG33-3 CompuServe.COM> from "Chris Tinsley" at Dec 9, 95 04:35:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1382 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley writes: > he finds that to explain some of his experimental work the simplest thing is > to suggest that fog (suspended water droplets of diameter < 100um) has a lower > specific heat than bulk water. I thought this an entertaining notion, a > droplet of that kind has some similarities with a tiny air bubble in water... If I recall the theory, the heat storage capacity of a substance depends upon the number of vibrational modes available. Since the thermal activity is random, all modes tend to get equal energy division. Roughly speaking, a substance with two vibrational modes will take two units of energy to raise the temperature one degree, while a substance with three modes will require three units of energy to raise the temperature one degree, etc. We can imagine, then, that a surface might have fewer modes of vibration than the bulk, and that "atomized" water dropplets have a higher ratio of surface area to bulk than just plain old bulk water. Similarly, a lot of bubbles would likewise increase the surface area. So if all the above is correct, it would seem plausible that the two cases would indeed result in a reduction of the specific heat of water. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:26:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA17108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:26:49 -0800 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA17096 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:26:46 -0800 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA17081; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:25:27 -0500 Date: 09 Dec 95 11:32:03 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Jed's report Message-ID: <951209163202_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: to:vortex It is never easy to give credit where it is due, but I do think that Jed's more detailed second report is quite remarkable. Some of us know the difficulties of doing fieldwork of this kind, and here we have Jed - who is supposedly a 'non-scientist' - showing us how to do a superb job of a science/engineering investigation under very difficult circumstances. Personally, I think that he did it in a way which would do credit to many professionals (from which classification I would obviously exclude myself, of course). Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 09:01:00 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25653 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:00:59 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA25642 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:00:57 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.78 (eb1ppp14.shentel.net [204.111.1.78]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA03719 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:02:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199512091702.MAA03719 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 12:04:03 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex: I wish to concur with Chris's thought on the bubble-vapor connection. Earlier I posted on vortex an outline of an experiment that used ultra- sonic energy of a very high electrical potential to induce plasma in a beaker filled with water vapor. This effect became the basis of my theory of "duality of resonance". This theory was a very childish attempt on my part to link mechanical and electrical resonance. I hope that this subject can be probed by the many great minds of vortex. Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 09:25:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA02047 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:25:19 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02019 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:25:15 -0800 Received: from net-1-117.austin.eden.com (net-1-117.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.117]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA01830 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:25:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:25:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512091725.LAA01830 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Magnetic beads X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A First let me also thank Jed for the excellent reporting job. BTW, did all of you catch ZoltanCCC's PowerGen report on s.p.f.? A drastically different viewpoint. I think Logajan has posted it on his web page as well. After all the interesting talk that has transpired I am most intrigued by the report that the beads stick together magnetically! I, too, wonder if such a thin coating of Ni could be so strongly magnetized. I do know that bulk pure Ni will become relatively strongly magnetized (i.e. similar to hard steel) when subjected to a strong MMF (as my H-metal experiment Ni rod has become). As far as I can see, nothing about the CETI cell would create any _significant_ magnetic fields so they must have deliberatly magnetized the beads...which might explain why they got "stone-faced" as Chris mentioned. Could it be that the "new" beads are solid Ni with a Pd coating? Ed Storms suggested such an arrangement would promote absorbtion of H by the Ni, preventing the formation of a stoiciometric (is this spelled right?) NiH2 barrier layer on the surface of the Ni. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 10:40:00 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA23557 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:39:52 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA23532 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:39:46 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA15135; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:39:45 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:39:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Magnetic beads In-Reply-To: <199512091725.LAA01830 natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > After all the interesting talk that has transpired I am most intrigued by > the report that the beads stick together magnetically! On the atomic scale, the atoms in a ferromagnetic material try to line up so a magnet is formed. It's only on the macroscopic scale that they want to be misaligned and "unmagnetized," so ferromagnetic materials are always full of "domains," or little areas which each are a magnet, but when taken together their fields sum to zero. Small objects tend to have only a few domains, so the nickel coating on the beads may act like two or three individual magnets. Individual beads would then stick together. But if the nickel coating is very thin, all the weirdness of 2-D magnetism arises, and you have possibilities such as roving populations of "magnetic bubbles," etc. If CF has anything to do with ferromagnetism, maybe two-dimensional magnetic effects are key. If so, then the surface of bulk material would not produce the effect, but thin films or extremely small structures (cracks and grains, filaments, pieces of shattered bubbles, etc.) are key. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 11:19:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04560 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:19:47 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA04540 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:19:45 -0800 Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA10178; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:18:16 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:18:15 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau In-Reply-To: <951209093513_100433.1541_BHG33-3 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9 Dec 1995, Chris Tinsley wrote: > > He told me something which he said he didn't mind my talking about, namely that > he finds that to explain some of his experimental work the simplest thing is to > suggest that fog (suspended water droplets of diameter < 100um) has a lower > specific heat than bulk water. I thought this an entertaining notion, a > droplet of that kind has some similarities with a tiny air bubble in water... > I assume you're implicitly referring to something other than his rail-gun anomalies? > Chris > > Charles Hope From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 11:58:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA15975 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:58:11 -0800 Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15938 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:58:01 -0800 Received: from [199.165.120.31] ([199.165.120.31]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA31290 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:24:11 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:59:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Photo captions Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > . . . I must say, it is a pleasure writing for this forum, knowing that I >will not be bombarded with snide comments and nitpicking "challenges." I think >maybe I'll keep posting here and forget about s.p.f. > >- Jed Jed, You have been one of the pillars of s.p.f. Without you, the critical mass might have been lost long ago. Silence in a newsgroup is death. It seems like such a thankless effort doesn't it? You make the effort to speak your truths as you know them, for the benefit of mankind, only to be abused and ridiculed. Have no doubts, s.p.f., and your part in it, is changing the world. It has certainly changed my world, even if my wife would question if it's for the better (I now have a room full of ugly metal cabinets, meters, wires, plexaglss, etc. that issue forth ozone and scary noises.) All over the world, readers of s.p.f. are being motivated to question, think, and experiment in the energy field. This can only be good for us all. Vindication is in sight. Enjoy it. Give it to 'em with both barrels. They deserve it, and you deserve it! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 05:50:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA07385 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 05:50:02 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA07374 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 05:49:59 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA05206; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 08:27:38 -0500 Date: 10 Dec 95 08:34:14 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex , James Diss <100540.2743@compuserve.com>, Rick Monteverde <76216.2421 compuserve.com> Subject: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times Message-ID: <951210133413_100433.1541_BHG65-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex;james;Rick Monteverde 76216,2421 Chris Morriss (crsm oroboros.demon.co.uk) spotted this in the Sunday Times (10 December). Page 4-9 ("Money" section), "Innovation", "transport", email innovation delphi.com, web address http://www.delphi.co.uk/innov/ Article includes photo of T's sidekick on the scooter, photo measures about 10" by 5". [I am faxing the text and the photo to Gene Mallove.] [my own comments in square brackets] ----------------------------------------------------- "Accident" in lab creates super motor A scientist who stumbled onto the world's most magnetic material saw its attraction for electric vehicles, writes TONY EWARDS. An electric scooter with a top speed of 50mph and a range of more than 500 miles has been developed by a Japanese scientist who accidentally discovered what he claims is the world's most magnetic material. [50mph? I did that up a steepish hill, and I weigh over 200lb. I bet it will do 70mph on the level. 500 miles? If that is true, then the thing is o-u in spades] To date, most of the research on electric vehicles has concentrated on developing super-efficient batteries in an attempt to maximise their range and power-to-weight ratio. [And quite rightly. No improvement which would make more than a small percentage change is possible by modifying the electric motor.] However, until now even the most advanced vehicles have required a small battalion of such batteries to achieve a modest performance. The new scooter, developed by Sciex Corporation of Japan, runs on just four ordinary 12-volt car batteries. [Small gel-based lead-acid traction batteries, actually] "Almost everyone has worked on the battery end of the problem," says its inventor, Yasunori Takahashi. "I thought: why not look at the other end - the motor?" His breakthrough in electromagnetic technology came a few years ago while he was experimenting with new magnetic alloys. One of his laboratory staff misread his instructions and added the wrong element to the the mix. "We Japanese often confuse the Roman leters b and d," says Takahashi, "My technician added neodymium (Nd) instead of niobium (Nb). The result was extraordinary - I suddenly found myself in the presence of the most powerful magnetic material I had ever seen." [Hey? But Nd is common in magnets. I reckon this is either backwards or just some misdirection] Takahashi subsequently developed a manufacturing system for producing a magnetic powder which could be formed into anything, from ultra-thin coatings to large permanent magnets. He now claims to have produced a magnet with the world's highest Megagauss Oersted rating - or MgOe, the unit in which magnetism is measured. "Before my discovery, 55MgOe was the maximum anybody had achieved; but my magnet can reach 120MgOe," says Takahashi. This super-magnetic force is the secret behind the new Sciex scooter's performance. Takahashi has redesigned a conventional electric motor and fitted his super-powerful "YT" magnets, resulting in highly efficient engine that will produce a claimed 15 horsepower [11+kW] from just a few amperes [sic!] of electricity. In fact, he claims the motor is so efficient that, when the scooter is throttled back and free-wheeling, the engine becomes a generator and partly recharges the batteries while on the move, giving the scooter its enormous range. Michael Lughton, professor of electrical engineering at London University, [this is not the university engineer I met] is impressed. "It's an incredible machine," he says. "Takahashi seems to have devolped an extraordinarily efficient electric motor and control system. In principle there's no reason why it couldn't be scaled up for an electric car." [Look, if it has a range of 500 miles, it *is* 'an incredible machine'] Takahashi has a good record in commercial innovation. While at Sony, he developed Beta videotape technology, which became the standard system used by the television industry until it was overtaken by VHS. He now has big plans for commercial exploitation of his new magnetic discovery. "The YT magnet can be used for any application where conventional magnets are currently used - from credit cards to loudspeakers, with a huge potential increase in information-storage and quality," he says. One novel use for the magnet invented by Takahashi is to extend the life of the rechargeable batteries. His magnets can be made into thin inch-wide squares, which, if fitted to mobile-phone batteries, will double the amount of charge they retain and so last twice as long. This "battery doubler" is already on the market in Japan where, says Takahashi, the Japanese equivalent of BT [British Telecom] has ordered 100,000 of them. At present the magnetic alloys are manufactured under licence in Japan but last month Takahashi announced his intention to set up his primary manufacturing plant in Britain. "Britain has lower overheads than many other countries and there are hundreds of engineering companies within a few hours drive of London," he says. [tens of thousands, mate] A factory site has already been earmarked in north London, though Takahashi now requires L20m [approx $30m] investment to develop it properly. --------------------------------------------- My thoughts are that Takahashi is keeping his OU claim under wraps, possibly finding that it ruins his credibility. It certainly would go down like a rat sandwich here. I hope this is helpful, my two typing fingers are getting sore after the past few days! Who's going to persuade Santa to bring me a scanner? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 10:47:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01542 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:36:16 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01517 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:36:10 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA23505; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:36:05 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:36:04 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: CETIdemo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---- bounced message, forwarded ----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 12:23:03 -0500 cc: gam+ pitt.edu, Puthoff@aol.com, manty@etf6.ctc.com Subject: CETIdemo Hi I'm back from the CETI demo. Jed got the technical details out on this web. I saw the same thing. I had a nice time. I met Jed Rothwell assistant editor of Infinite Energy. Jed and I had supper and a drink with Richard Hellen Technology and Strategy Planning of Nuclear Electric Gloucestershire England. Jed knows so much. It was a pleasure talking with him. Richard and I attempeted to develope a utility response to the CETI developement. So far we have none. We went to Disney and the only thing we could think of was "We have got to move fast !" As far as I know the oil and gas companines don't even know what is going on. The whole thing was like one of those things you see in the movies. Richard said his company may want to partner with my company in developing a response. Thomas O. Passell of EPRI was also there. He is the Manager of Deuterated Metals Research at Palo Alto Ca. When I get back to work I'm going to tell our top management that we need to talk Mr. Passell..NOW!!! From CETI we had: James W. Reading President, Paul M Voorhies Vice President, and Dennis Cravous, James Patterson founder...They were very nice people..but they know that they have the world in there hands. How are big oil and utilities going to respond to the small group of CETI people. Billions of $$$ are at stake. I have no idea what will happen next !!! I also had coffee and several meetings with George Miley of the Univ of Ill. He is the head of the Hot Fusion Studies Lab and Editor for the American Nuclear Society. He knows there is excess heat...when he saw the 1000 KW demo he made a face at me that said . "What hath god rath????" He is working hard to get to the bottom of the whole thing and he even likes my ideas...I gave him a copy of my disk and he is going to send me a copy of his "Swarming Electron theory" I called Puthoff and asked him what to look for and ask...he gave me a few pointers. Also at the demo was F. G. Jager of Eneco they hold the original Pons and Fleichmann patents. I also met Hal Fox editor of "Fusion Facts" he is going to help me market my disk. Gene Mallove told me over the phone that my paper is going to be published in the Janurary addition of "Infinite Energy Magizine" Tip....you all should get the magizine if you don't already receive it.. As luck would havd it I also met Brian A Manty (on the plane) Manager of Concurrent Technologies Corp his company has money from the dept of defense. I asked him if he would like to work with us to bring this technology to the market. He said, Yes and that he will get the money....What am I going to tell the Boss on monday??? Will he believe me?? He will probably think that I have really snapped. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 11:11:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA07948 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:02:15 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA07935 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:02:11 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06247 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:01:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199512101901.AA06247 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:01:49 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: 1kw Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 14:01:11 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I re-read my memo. Its 1kw not 1000Kw. frank znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 02:57:07 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA18996 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:56:44 -0800 Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA18985 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:56:42 -0800 Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA24378; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 05:55:24 -0500 Date: 10 Dec 95 06:03:01 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: O-U on UK TV Message-ID: <951210110300_100433.1541_BHG61-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex I have just noticed that I have the description of the UK CHannel 4 Equinox programme on o-u. Damn, I've had the BBC listings mag (Radio Times) for days, I hadn't thought to look. Here it is: Channel 4, 7pm GMT, Sunday 17 December "The last in current series of the science documentary strand. It Runs On Water "According to the first law of thermodynamics, you can't get more energy out of a reaction than you put in. But a number of inventors around the world claim to have produced machines that are capable of doing just that. "Known as 'over-unity' devices, these machines appear to produce more heat, more hydrogen and more electricity than conventional calculations would allow. It is claimed their results could have profound implications for our knowledge about the structure of matter, and may some day hold the prospect of a fuel derived from water. "But is it all a hoax or an error of measurement? Tonight's programme talks to three contemporary American inventors with a burning desire to see their inventions work. Equinox also meets eminent physicist Frank Close, whose scepticism knows no bounds - he is prepared to bet his mortgage that the claims will not be proved valid." I went for a walk. The other listings magazines used the same press release, but less of it. Dear old Frank. It's good to see a chap with the courage of his convictions. I did get a call from these people last week, they wanted to know about Anaheim, they hoped there'd be time to put something about the latest news into the commentary. It would be interesting to study the exact wording of that wager ... Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 14:13:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA26840 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:02:09 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA26818 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:02:06 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05710 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:01:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199512102201.AA05710 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:01:43 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: Fluid Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 17:01:02 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:01:57 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Fluidized Bed In-Reply-To: <199512071636.LAA22152 spectre.mitre.org> Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [...] > I'm beginning to suspect that, if ZPE is involved, then the > fluidized bed is what is getting this from laboratory to usable scale. > (There will be one lowest resistance path through the bed. At gaps in > this path, you have two conductors in close proximity with an ionic > fluid in between--no Casmir Force. But the current flow concentrates > in this small area and when the ions are locally exhausted you get a > small insulating volume. Now the Casmir Force drives the pellets > together, the emf disappears, and the surface ions are freed. Repeat > constantly.) One obvious question, and I think the great weakness in this ZPE scenario, is: Why should this happen specifically in this kind of cell, and not in others? Beads have been fluidised before, and they didn't casimir. Are you postulating that by virtue of water electrolysis at a certain kind of electrode surface, that surface becomes prone to the Casimir effect? -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk Znidarsic responds: I asked Miley the same question. According to his swarming electron theory the electron density becomes very large at the interface between the two metals. He knew that but didn't understand the connection to ZPE. I told him that the Fermi levels were evanescening. He said, "That statement attracted him to me." I explained the Genesis process. He took my disk. He stated, "Nobody ever said genesis before." We spent a long time talking. I told him of Puthoff's work with electron condensations. He wants to talk to Puthoff. I see that in Fusion Facts November 95 that Harold Aspden also came to the same conclusions that I did. I'm having a great week. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 14:29:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA01343 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:17:23 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA01320 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:17:19 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.136 (eb3ppp8.shentel.net [204.111.1.136]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA24524 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:18:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199512102218.RAA24524 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 11:11:58 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951210133413_100433.1541_BHG65-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, I think this is amazing! There are a number of areas in microwave generation and other such feilds where such magnets could allow an incredible leap forward. The only point that places fear in my heart is the mention of need for additional capital, this after such a large purchase by a Japanese BT. (maybe NTT who has put big bucks into CF). > Takahashi now requires L20m [approx $30m] investment to develop it > properly. > snip From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 07:31:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18566 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:18:23 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18532 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:18:18 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id HAA21205; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:18:16 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:18:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:42:29 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau On 9 Dec 1995, Chris Tinsley wrote: [...] > He told me something which he said he didn't mind my talking about, namely that > he finds that to explain some of his experimental work the simplest thing is to > suggest that fog (suspended water droplets of diameter < 100um) has a lower > specific heat than bulk water. I thought this an entertaining notion, a > droplet of that kind has some similarities with a tiny air bubble in water... I assume that you mean by this that the water droplets themselves have a lower etc; i.e. not the fog, for which that would be expected, being a mixture of air and water? This sounds to me like another case of a model that might work, but does not correspond to reality - unless, unless... well, tiny droplets do have a substantial "skin", and there are those who say that at an interface, water is structured much more than in the bulk, and that this structure might extend into the bulk by up to 100 nm. One of Bockris's pet ideas is that the dielectric constant of such structured water is higher than that of bulk water (he is of course talking about water at metal surfaces), and who knows how such structure would affect the specific heat? I don't. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 07:35:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18111 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:16:45 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18101 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:16:42 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id HAA20995; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:16:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:16:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Fluid Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 10 Dec 1995 18:32:18 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/10/95 18:32:42 SMTP *** Reply to note of 12/10/95 14:09 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Fluid Well gang, we are about 5 hours in the running with my "dummy" CETI cell, with 1 molar LiSO4, and crushed/silvered Xmas ornament glass interspersed in a coppe r mesh maxtrix. So far we are at 2.2 watts in and 2.2 watts out by my calibrati ons. Nothing to shout about. But as Russ George (Equest) pointed out, a zero run that examins noise during electrolysis has it's value. TC's being used, and the measurement is made by putting an isolated (by plastic enclosure) TC IN the active fluid, and one wrapped around the outside of the inlet pipe. So far that arrangement has given me about an 80% recovered, in terms of Mdot *DeltaT*Cp, with resistance calibration. The 2.2 "out" right now is a visual examination of the data, but I'm not even thinking of paying attention unless I get over 2:1 !!! MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 07:38:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18746 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:19:06 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18728 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:19:03 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id HAA21278; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:19:01 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:19:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:49:16 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz Subject: Re: vtx: OK, Mark let's find out On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On 7 Dec 95 at 16:01, Dieter Britz wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > > I have asked myself why Cravens used plastic beads, when metal beads > > > would stand high temperatures much better. I think the answer may be > > > that the current density through a 2 micron layer of metal on a > > > plastic bead would be much higher than through an all metal bead. > > > Furthermore, I suspect that multiple layers may be important. > > > > Not so; current density is total current divided by total electrode area, > > which is independent of what is inside. Plastic or glass is used to get a > > fluidised bed at lower flow rates, normally. Why CETI chose them, I > > wouldn't know. > > > > -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk > > For a solid electrode this would be true. However with many beads > touching at single points, and others not touching at all, the > current will flow from bead to bead, inward at some points on the > surface, and outward at others. It will of necessity be conducted > through the surface layers, which are very thin, rather than through > the body of the bead. This will lead to higher current densities > within the metal, parallel to the surface, than would be the case > with solid beads. > Robin van Spaandonk You're right, I was wrong. An electrochemist normally ignores currents going through the electrodes; "current" means the electrochemical current, which I automatically thought you meant, and you didn't. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 08:30:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18300 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:17:29 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18279 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:17:25 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id HAA21096; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:17:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:17:21 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:50:24 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Call from Peter Graneau On 9 Dec 95 at 10:04, John Logajan wrote: [snip] > Similarly, a lot of bubbles would likewise increase the surface area. > > So if all the above is correct, it would seem plausible that the two > cases would indeed result in a reduction of the specific heat of water. [snip] Even if this is true, I don't think it would explain the GG, as temperature measurements were taken in the barrel afterwards, and in all likelihood by that time any bubbles would have risen to the surface, converting the contents back into bulk water, thereby reducing the temperature. For the YUSMAR, if I am not mistaken, the calculations are based on comparison with an electric heater, therefore specific heat isn't really relevant. (It would just imply a higher flow rate of water through the device). Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 08:35:10 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA19445 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:21:11 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA19435 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:21:09 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id HAA21596; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:21:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:21:08 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: money Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GEORGEHM AOL.COM To: PUTHOFF AOL.COM To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: money Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 09:33:34 EST -> GEORGEHM AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> PUTHOFF AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I talked to our management. They trust me. I was told to go with it. I see big money coming. We may even try building a design of our own. I hope there is no mistake and we here at GPU don't wind up with egg on our face. Will be taking directly with the President of GPU within the week. We have started running. I want to hire Puthoff. Hire CTC labs. Deal with CETI. I told mgmt. We have an advantage..I know where the energy is coming from. They believe me. I want to build a cell that we can control like a transistor. I want a better deal from CETI. The video was a knock out...they believe...Hugo, I may even have a job for you!!! Real shortly the lawyers are going to clam me up....If you don't here from me that is what happened. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:03:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10972 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:49:34 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA10957 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:49:32 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA03894; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:49:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:49:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: money Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 11 Dec 1995 07:47:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: money To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/11/95 07:47:57 SMTP *** Reply to note of 12/11/95 07:28 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: money Frank: Ran a "zero" this weekend. Kind of similar to the 30 watt device of CETI. (But made of copper mesh and crushed, silvered Xmas ornaments. Put 2.2 watts in and got 2.0 or slightly less out (by Mdot*DeltaT*Cp). I think it is pretty hard to screw this up in the positive direction. - Be sure to make multiple copies of my letter to IE and pass it around. I want people to KNOW that I have been doing this work since '90, and although I can't claim stunning contributions, I have a good handle on things. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:04:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10851 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:54 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA10842 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:51 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA03858; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:49 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Where Is E-Quest? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:32:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tilleyrw digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: Where Is E-Quest? >ons. Nothing to shout about. But as Russ George (Equest) pointed out, a What is happening with E-Quest? The last that their president, Dick Raymond, told me on the phone was that they had repeatable over-unity. If so, why aren't they demonstrating projects like Patterson is? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, | | and why. Then do it." -- Lazarus Long | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Robert Tilley * tilleyrw digital.net * "Once upon a time..." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | *** --- *** --- http://ddi.digital.net/~tilleyrw --- *** --- *** | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:08:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10734 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:16 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA10713 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:13 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA03821; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:48:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: O-U on UK TV Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 10 Dec 1995 11:50:11 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: O-U on UK TV To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/10/95 11:50:53 SMTP *** Reply to note of 12/10/95 03:05 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: O-U on UK TV Could we get Frank to BET that about the CETI device????? Please, oh please, oh please!!! - Chris: An important piece of information I need: Is England 50 Cycles Per Second or 60 Cycles per second. (Please note my use of Cycles Per Second is very deliberate, I HATE the term Hertz. I distain any physical unit which can be expressed in a venacular and understood which is obscured by the attaching of a "random name" to it. My appologies to Hienrick Hertz., or was it George?) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:13:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA11700 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:53:30 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA11695 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:53:28 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA04085; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:53:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Some Bound Calcs for CETI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 11 Dec 1995 14:58:14 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: Some Bound Calcs for CETI To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/11/95 14:58:16 SMTP From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Some Bound Calcs for CETI - From what I know of the CETI cell, their surface power density at 1300 watts was probably 13,000 BTU/Ft^2/Hr or 40,000 Watts/M^2. This is not = 100,000 BTU/Ft^2/Hr or film boiling, but I wonder if they are getting hot spots? - How many people out there have been charging hydrogen into metals the last five years! General experience is, does not damage ---particularily, thin films. (Thick specimens, yes.) - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:13:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA11451 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:52:02 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA11426 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:56 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA04021; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI at Anaheim Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 12:36:00 -0500 From: VISOR GLOBALCOM.NET Subject: Re: vtx: CETI at Anaheim To: vortex-l eskimo.com On Tue, 12 Dec 95, VISOR GLOBALCOM.NET wrote: > > >This just arrived in my mailbox. I think my mail server is a bit sick! My question is about the mass of the beads before and after. Is this data availible? Robert >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>I just received this from Jed. Apparently the beads were tending to break up >>at the very high (35W/ml) power, so they reduced the input - note the >increased >>ratio. >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:15:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA11256 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:07 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA11242 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:04 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA03976; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:51:03 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI at Anaheim Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 12:27:56 -0500 From: VISOR GLOBALCOM.NET Subject: Re: vtx: CETI at Anaheim To: vortex-l eskimo.com Scott, Bill, Jack: This just arrived in my mailbox. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >CETI (Clean Energy Technologies Inc) brought their latest "cold fusion" machine >to the exhibition. (Please note that fusion in the sense of nuclear fusion is >improbable as the energy source in this device. I use the term as a tag for >these presumably related phenomena). > >The device is significantly bigger than the demonstration unit built by the >University of Illinois and shown at the recent SOFE fusion technology meeting >there recently. It consists of a tube filled with small (<1mm) plastic beads, >each plated with several layers of metal. At Illinois, these platings were >(from the bead outward) copper, nickel, palladium and nickel. In fact, the >palladium probably plays no active role, it may only be providing a >low-resistance electrical connection. > >The total internal volume of the cylinder is 40ml. The beads are in contact >with one another, and act as the cathode in an electrolytic cell. The anode of >the cell is of platinum, but perhaps nickel would work just as well. The >electrolyte is a solution in ordinary water (not heavy water) and the solute is >(or was at Illinois) lithium sulphate. > >There is a reservoir of electrolyte, about a gallon or two. A pump circulates >electrolyte through the bead cathode at a rate of 20ml/sec. Passage through >the cathode causes an increase in temperature of between 16 and 17 degrees >Celsius. Taking the thermal capacity of the electrolyte as being the same as >water (which it isn't exactly), this represents a heating rate of more than >1.3kW. The power from the 8V dc supply to the cell is 1.4W (180mA). > >Thus the power out:power in ratio is very nearly 1000:1. The bead mass is >producing heat at the rate of nearly 35W/ml. A litre would thus produce >35 kilowatts. > >Certain adjustments should be made, however. If the device is like the one in >Illinois, then much of the input energy is being dissipated in the dissociation >of the water into hydrogen and oxygen - which was simply vented off instead of >being recombined. On the other hand, the powerful pump is certainly adding >some heat into the water. The best arguments in such matters are probably the >simplest: all the electrical equipment (the dc power supply, the pump, and >some of the test meters) are fed from a single ac wall socket. This gives 120V >and the current measured is 0.7A, the total electrical supply being thus 80W. >At a guess, the pump motor may be taking 50W, and maybe putting 10W into the >electrolyte. The dissociation of water is probably losing about half the input >energy. There will be some thermal losses. Maybe the actual 'over-unity' >performance is closer to 2000:1 > >The bottom line is that the total power being taken by the system and all its >ancillary equipment and test meters is 80W. The total power being produced to >heat the electrolyte is more than 1300W. The mechanism by which this energy is >being produced is not clear. It is certainly not chemical energy, since it >rapidly exceeds any conceivable chemical process (for example, filling the >cylinder with beryllium metal and oxidising it) within hours - it runs >apparently indefinitely, one smaller cell ran for six weeks. The idea that it >is a nuclear effect is highly improbable, but cannot be discounted. >Effectively zero ionising radiation or neutrons have so far been detected. If >a non-radiative and previously unknown nuclear process is occurring, then it >would require a stable elemental product. Some work has been done to search >for products, but so far no reports of any success have been made. > >This would appear to be one of the "Nickel-Hydrogen" variety of cold fusion >processes. At least two other 'big players' - Mills in Pennsylvania and >Piantelli in Italy - are reporting considerable success with processes of this >kind, and both claim to have 'gas phase' units (these use nickel in an >atmosphere of hydrogen gas). Of all the processes (and there are many) which >claim to produce the CF heat effect, Ni-H has for some time seemed to me the >most promising, for reasons of cost, power density and general reliability once >the special conditions for its working have been met. However, only CETI have >been able to demonstrate the effect at will and in public. And their process >has been replicated by at least two independent universities. > >With this demonstration of reliability and performance, all the criticisms of >CF experimentation are answered. The sole remaining objection - in the eyes of >some hostile observers - is the lack of a proposed explanation for the effect. >Since the effect is cheap and apparently competely safe, this lack of >understanding should prove no obstacle to commercial exploitation. > >It is also reported that the process will work at elevated temperatures (300 >degrees Celsius) under pressure. This is similar to the temperature of the >cooling water in a fission reactor, so that the process will be able to >drive a steam turbine, Stirling engine, or similar energy conerter. Without >pressure, domestic heaters would be practical, but with pressure it will be >possible to make home electrical power plants and motor vehicles power >units. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I just received this from Jed. Apparently the beads were tending to break up >at the very high (35W/ml) power, so they reduced the input - note the increased >ratio. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >The numbers from the afternoon run were as follows: > >POWER IN: > >A/C 0.7 A * 140 V = 98 W > >Electrolysis 3.9 V * 0.02 A = 0.1 W > >POWER OUT > >1.0 l/minute flow * 6.7 dec Delta T = 28140 j/minute = 469 watts >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >[end] > > > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:20:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA13661 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 06:03:14 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13474 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 06:02:21 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA10379 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:58:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199512121358.AA10379 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:58:05 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GEORGEHM aol.com To: PUTHOFF aol.com To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: thank you for Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 08:56:14 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> JEROME R SEESE II -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC -> ROBERT GAGICH My zero point energy ideas are having an impact around the world. Frank Znidarsic -> PUTHOFF AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> GEORGEHM AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> UNIV!CHICEA PUB.RO MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Organization: P.U.B. Communication Center From: Dan CHICEA X-Mailer: SCO System V Mail (version 3.2) To: p8156 memo.gpuc.com Subject: thank you for the disk ! Cc: chicea sibiu.ro Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 11:53:06 MEZ December 11, 1995 Dear Sir, Thank you very much for the disk. I have installed it right now, as I have received it, on my computer (which is a tired 386 SX/40 machine; the 3.5" drive is not working very well so I missed four files). I started reading the book and I find it lovely. I think you worked a lot to write it. I am grateful to you for your generosity and for the kindness you showed by sending me the book. I will be back with a message when I have a closer idea about the contents; for the moment I am so happy for having it that I could not stand writing this message to thank you. I will be back soon. Please receive my thanks and best wishes and a lot of success in your work. Respectfully yours, ------------------------------------------------------------- Dan CHICEA Private phone: 40-69-482388 University of SIBIU, fax : 40-69-415302 Physics Dept. Phone: 40-69-415732 B-dul Victoriei nr. 5-7, email: chicea sibiu.ro Sibiu, 2400, Romania ------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:34:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA17273 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 06:18:37 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA17262 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 06:18:34 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA11569 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:18:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199512121418.AA11569 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:18:00 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: running Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:17:09 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Criss I met a friend of yours from England. Richard Hellen. He knows you. Do you remeber him? He is Director of Technology Strategy and Planning for Nuclear Electric phone 0253-812038. Berkeley Technology Center GloucesterHis company is also regrouping to deal with the CETI development. Why don't you give him a call and fill him in. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 09:20:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA08580 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:10:29 -0800 Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08539 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:10:23 -0800 Received: from pppnode21.bahnhof.se (pppnode21 [193.44.91.121]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA02654 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 17:10:12 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 17:10:12 GMT Message-Id: <199512121710.RAA02654 sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo sunny.bahnhof.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: grappo bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following was received from visor re Takahasi >Chris, > >I think this is amazing! There are a number of areas in microwave=20 >generation and other such feilds where such magnets could allow an=20 >incredible leap forward. > >The only point that places fear in my heart is the mention of need for=20 >additional capital, this after such a large purchase by a Japanese BT.=20 >(maybe NTT who has put big bucks into CF).=20 > >> Takahashi now requires L20m [approx $30m] investment to develop it >> properly. >> >snip > In automotive and aerospace work even small steps forward takes a big heap of money to develop and put into production. And these steps are so far based on known technology. In this case we seem to have something fundamentally new. An extraordinary amount of testing has therefore to take place before a product can be released on the market. The same thing will undoubtedly apply to putting the "CF"-pro=F6ducts on the market. I would certainly appreciate to have a radically new gadget to warm up my house fully tested. Personally I think &m30 means that the chap is serious and knows what he is talking about. By the way would you please tell me what is meant by "snip" and "s.p.f."=20 Best regards=20 Gudmund Rapp Gudmund Rapp Retired from various aerospace activities: Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Swedish Airforce, Decca Navigator och Radar 133 32 Saltsjobaden and Saab Aerospace. Sweden =20 Voice: +4687178913 E-mail: grappo bahnhof.se From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:19:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA28376 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:10:09 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA28351 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:10:04 -0800 Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA28735; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:08:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:08:12 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times In-Reply-To: <199512121710.RAA02654 sunny.bahnhof.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, gudmund rapp wrote: > By the way would you please tell me what is meant by "snip" and "s.p.f." "snip" is the sound we English speakers think scissors make, so it's put in a post to indicate that text was deleted. s.p.f. refers to the usenet group sci.physics.fusion, a place of much struggle and ferment. Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:20:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27997 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:09:02 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA27870 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:08:41 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.156 (eb3ppp28.shentel.net [204.111.1.156]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA04175 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:10:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199512121810.NAA04175 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 13:12:26 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512121710.RAA02654 sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Gudmund Rapp: Yes, money is needed, my comment was simply that this product is already on the market in association with a "deep pocket"; that is to say a company with a large financial base. Having worked on Madison Ave. with many technology ventures, most in the tens or hundreds of millions, it was almost always the case that if some product \ project had sizzle and substance (not only looked real, but was real) it was hard to get close enough to throw money at it. With such an advance, bridge capitol should be coming out of the woodworks. I have faith in Chris, so I wondered just a little about this comment on money. S.P.F is a news group Science.Physics.Fusion Snip... I meant to say I snipped this from a longer article. Robert Semi-retired after several lifetimes of looking for honest, not so greedy playmates. I gave up on the soulmate long ago...still, I wanna play. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 11:13:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17101 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:01:36 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA17063 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:01:29 -0800 Received: from s3c0p2.aa.net (s3c0p2.aa.net [204.157.220.134]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA25840 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:54:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:54:45 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512121854.KAA25840 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >--- FORWARDED --- >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: O-U on UK TV >Could we get Frank to BET that about the CETI device????? Please, oh please, >oh please!!! >- >Chris: An important piece of information I need: Is England 50 Cycles Per >Second or 60 Cycles per second. (Please note my use of Cycles Per Second is >very deliberate, I HATE the term Hertz. I distain any physical unit which >can be expressed in a venacular and understood which is obscured by the >attaching of a "random name" to it. My appologies to Hienrick Hertz., or >was it George?) > > You have my respect Mark Hugo. I still to this day cannot believe that a small bunch of academics literally crammed that convention down the world's throat while it and I wasn't looking. Cycles were universally used until the late 60's. It conveys so much more implicit meaning. The use of Hertz and the other "academic" personalities to name phenomemon is one of the reasons why so many people have difficulty with the terminology of science. I know damn well in a few generations much of the language of science will be changed to more basic, more implicitly meaningful terms, like back to "cycle". ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 11:39:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA26253 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:27:25 -0800 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA26202 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:27:18 -0800 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA12982; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:25:58 -0500 Date: 12 Dec 95 14:24:47 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: UK mains supply Message-ID: <951212192446_100433.1541_BHG119-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Mark Hugo asks about UK mains. They are 50Hz (or whatever you call it) and about 240V. This is pretty constant across the Eurasian continent, I think. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 13:33:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA02833 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:10:52 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA02717 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:10:34 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA21044; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:09:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 12 Dec 95 10:37:08 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV Mark, UK is 50Hz (hahaha) and 230-240V. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 13:49:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA14244 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:37:21 -0800 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA14138 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:36:59 -0800 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA29895; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:35:40 -0500 Date: 12 Dec 95 16:28:28 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Another Chris Tinsley Message-ID: <951212212827_100433.1541_BHG91-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Frank Znidarsic asks about this Richard Hellen, who knows me. I did hear about him from Jed, who says he is a sound fellow who, on hearing Jed mention my name, said, "Not THE Chris Tinsley!?!?" Thus has my fame spread ... except that it turns out that this Chris Tinsley is somebody else. Sniff. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:11:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA13130 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:50:18 -0800 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA13038 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:50:02 -0800 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA26948; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 17:48:31 -0500 Date: 12 Dec 95 17:46:56 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Message-ID: <951212224655_72240.1256_EHB110-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Here is a brief report of the Power-Gen demo, which I am thinking of putting on some of the e-mail networks. I keep trying to boil this down to the essentials, and it keeps growing up again. I have been chopping out paragraphs and putting them aside for use in the longer "Infinite Energy" article. What do y'all think so far? Have I left out anything important? - Jed [Title on internet: 1300 W cold fusion reactor demonstrated] [Title on CompuServe: 1300 W Cold Fusion] Atlanta, December 12, 1995 - last week at the Power-Gen '95 Americas power industry trade show in Anaheim (December 5-7, 1995), a 1-kilowatt cold fusion reactor was demonstrated by Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. (CETI) of Dallas Texas. The cathode is composed of thousands of 1 mm diameter co-polymer beads with a flash coat of copper and multiple layers of electrolytically deposited thin film nickel and palladium. CETI holds four U.S. patents on the beads, with additional patents pending. During the demonstration, between 0.1 and 1.5 watts of electricity was input, and the cell output 450 to 1,300 watts of heat. In April 1995, at the Fifth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF5) CETI demonstrated a cell with input of 0.14 watts and a peak excess of 2.5 watts, a ratio of 1:18. In October 1995, at the 16th biannual Symposium on Fusion Engineering (SOFE '95) the University of Illinois showed a CETI cell with 0.06 watts input and 5 watts peak output, a ratio of 1:83. Ratios at Power-Gen ranged from 1:1000 to 1:4000. The ICCF5 and Power-Gen calorimeters were designed and constructed by Dennis Cravens. The SOFE '95 calorimeter was constructed by George Miley's group at the University of Illinois. The Power-Gen cell and calorimeter are much larger than CETI's previous cold fusion demonstration devices. The cell is 10 cm long, 2.5 cm in diameter, containing roughly 40 ml of beads. Previous cells had about 1 ml of beads. The cell itself is wrapped in opaque foam plastic because the cell geometry has been improved and the improvements are not yet covered by patent applications. Other components in the calorimeter are made of clear Lucite plastic. (Photographs of the device can be seen on the World Wide Web address below.) The flow calorimeter reservoir holds 2.5 liters and the flow rate is set between 1.0 and 1.5 liters per minute. A control cell is mounted parallel to the hot cell. The flow to both cells is regulated with precision valves. The reservoir and pump consist of a Magnum 220 aquarium pump with a micron filter attachment, with an additional Lucite cylinder built on top of the pump unit to hold a cooling coil, gas trap, and a 3.5 watt computer cooling fan. Water is circulated by a magnetic impeller pump, driven by a 50-watt motor mounted underneath. Static in-line mixers ensure mixing. (These are plastic objects about an inch long with vanes to stir the flow.) A few weeks before the conference, Cravens decided to increase the flow rate in order to keep the temperature below 50 degrees C. The new flow rates exceeded the capacity of his flowmeters. He was not able to procure a bigger flowmeter in time for the conference, so no flowmeter was installed. Flow was measured by turning stopcocks to redirect fluid from the cell outlet tube into a graduated cylinder for 15 seconds. This test was performed many times, and the flow rate was not observed to change measurably, except when it was deliberately adjusted between runs. The water hose from the pump is coiled in air cooled box on top of the reservoir. Air is drawn through the box by the cooling fan. The pump, cooling fan and DC power supplies electrolysis all have one common AC cord, which is monitored by a Radio Shack analog AC voltmeter and a multimeter. Total power consumption by all components 85 watts. The Delta T temperatures and reservoir temperatures are measured with K-Type thermocouples, with Omega Model HH22 Microprocessor Thermometers. Power is measured with Metex M 3800 series multimeters. The first test was marred by a malfunction in the control cell. The control cell consisted of tin plated steel shot, arranged as an electrochemical cathode, in the same configuration as the smaller CETI thin film beads. During tests at the lab leading up to the conference, this produced no excess heat, as expected. However, during the first test at one point it appeared to be producing a Delta T temperature as high as 2.6 deg C. Assuming the flow rate and input power were stable, this would indicate a 216-watt excess. Cravens said he thought was due to a short circuit or an obstruction in the flow, or both, since an obstruction would likely cause both problems. He turned off the control cell for safety, and repaired it later on. He told me the next day his suspicion was confirmed, the anode and cathode had come in contact because it was plugged up. I expect this explains the apparent excess, but I cannot be sure because I have no detailed data. I was not able to observe the equipment closely, verify the thermocouple readings, input power levels, flow rate was, or note when the apparent excess began. (The incident occurred soon after I arrived. I was sitting across the room listening to the exposition.) The control cell was replaced with a joule heater for the remainder of the conference, which raised the water temperature the normal, expected amount. Later on, in subsequent tests, I was able to observe the machine closely, and to make direct measurements of its performance with my own instruments. I tested the flow rate on the cold fusion cell side several times. As noted above, I did not see any measurable variation except when the flow was deliberately changed from 1,300 ml to 1,000 ml per minute by closing the valves. I checked the thermocouple readings in the reservoir, inlet and outlet with two thermistors and a thermometer. They agreed closely with the thermocouple readings. The reservoir temperature can be taken by removing the cooling loop section on top and inserting the thermistor probe directly into the water. Measuring inlet and outlet temperature required a little more ingenuity. I confirmed the outlet thermocouple reading by taking a 250 ml sample of water from the outlet pipe during a flow test and immediately measuring the temperature before the sample cooled significantly. I confirmed the cold fusion inlet temperature by turning off the control side joule heater and taking a 250 ml sample from the control outlet pipe. Here is some sample data: Test 1, December 4, two hours INPUT POWER Measured AC: 0.7 A * 120 V = 84 W Electrolysis: 0.18 A * 8 V = 1.4 W OUTPUT POWER Flow rate 1200 ml/minute (300 ml/15 seconds) Delta T Temperature 16 to 17 deg C 1200 ml * 16 deg C * 4.2 = 80,640 j/min = 1,344 W Test 2, December 5, afternoon, 30 minutes. INPUT POWER Measured AC: 0.7 A * 140 V = 98 W Electrolysis: 0.02 A * 3.9 V = 0.1 W OUTPUT POWER Flow rate 1000 ml/min (250 ml/15 seconds) Delta T Temperature 6.7 deg C 1000 ml * 6.7 * 4.2 = 28,140 j/min = 469 W CETI plans to follow up on this with demonstrations of prototype consumer products, including larger cells for space heating and heat engines. They are working to develop these devices as rapidly as they can. They estimate that it will take six months to one year to make suitable prototypes. CETI is now engaged in joint R&D projects with five corporate and university strategic partners, including the University of Illinois and the University of Missouri. All five have independently verified the excess heat. The University of Illinois group has fabricated beads from scratch using a sputtering technique rather than electrolytic deposition. They have observed excess heat from their own beads as well as beads provided to them by CETI. Akira Kawasaki and I took many photographs of the calorimeter. I scanned four of them, and John Logajan uploaded them in his home page: WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan I will describe the Power-Gen demonstration in more detail in an upcoming issue of "Infinite Energy" magazine. - Jed Rothwell Cold Fusion Research Advocates 2050 Peachtree Industrial Court, Suite 113-A Chamblee, Georgia 30341 Tel: 770-451-9890 Fax: 770-458-2404 Home: 770-458-8107 E-Mail: JedRothwell delphi.com From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 16:06:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA05833 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:51:18 -0800 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA05656 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:50:50 -0800 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA17478; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:49:30 -0500 Date: 12 Dec 95 18:48:49 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: vtx: UK mains supply Message-ID: <951212234848_100060.173_JHB89-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said, >> UK mains. They are 50Hz (or whatever you call it) and about 240V. This is pretty constant across the Eurasian continent, I think. << The frequency is OK but the EC voltage has been standardised at 220 V, and we in the UK are suffering dull lights and not so hot heaters due to the change. The tolerance I think is plus/minus 15% on the 220 V, so it is possible to go down to 187 V and still be legal. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 00:24:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA28790 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:56:47 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA28748 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:56:41 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA14316; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:57:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:57:18 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV In-Reply-To: <199512121854.KAA25840 big.aa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Michael Mandeville wrote: > You have my respect Mark Hugo. I still to this day cannot believe that a > small bunch of academics literally crammed that convention down the world's > throat while it and I wasn't looking. Cycles were universally used until > the late 60's. It conveys so much more implicit meaning. The use of Hertz > and the other "academic" personalities to name phenomemon is one of the > reasons why so many people have difficulty with the terminology of science. > I know damn well in a few generations much of the language of science will > be changed to more basic, more implicitly meaningful terms, like back to > "cycle". We are being a bit USA-centric here, aren't we? Universally indeed. Hz was in use outside the US before it was adopted by agreement among engineers and physicists - those most in need of a standard name. As with other units names, they, the experts, are the ones to give them. Would you also complain about computer jargon like baud, byte, flops etc, forced upon everyone? Actually, the adoption of Hz solved a problem of a multiplicity of units at the time. Cycles per sec (not "cycles") seemed to imply to those using them that sine waves were meant; up until the digital revolution, that's what was in fact meant. Then other repetitive signals came in, like pulse trains, sawtooth "waves" etc. So there was rep-rate or rps instead of cps and it looked as if a jungle of names was coming up. So Hz was agreed upon, to cover the lot. Why not honour scientists this way? Do you object to Teslas, the Gauss, the Faraday, the Fahrenheit, Newtons, Angstroms (now replaced by nm, OK), the Hubble constant, the Ampere (how would you like Coulomb [!] per second?) Ohms, Volts, Farad, Henry, Siemens, etc etc? Change is not always welcome. When Australia changed from pounds, shillings and pence to dollars in about 1967, old people said, it won't last, you know. The Hz is here to stay. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 00:24:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00753 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:06:27 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA00734 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:06:22 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA17201; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:07:00 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:07:00 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Draft of Brief Report In-Reply-To: <951212224655_72240.1256_EHB110-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just a brief comment: The anode and cathode getting shorted is not enough to explain the 216 W output in the control cell, since a total of 85 W was going into the system. So there must have been a flow blockage as well. In which case a neutral observer should be shown a continuous flow meter on the machine. Rotameters are cheap and easy to buy. There should also, of course, be continuous indication of cell voltage and current - these would indicate a short at a glance. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 04:21:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA07358 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:49:19 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA07341 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:49:11 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-49.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-49.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.49]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA19094 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:46:53 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512130846.TAA19094 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:51:00 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 12 Dec 95 at 17:46, Jed Rothwell wrote: > To: Vortex > > Here is a brief report of the Power-Gen demo, which I am thinking of putting > on some of the e-mail networks. I keep trying to boil this down to the > essentials, and it keeps growing up again. I have been chopping out paragraphs > and putting them aside for use in the longer "Infinite Energy" article. > > What do y'all think so far? Have I left out anything important? > > - Jed [snip] Jed, I do have a few questions. 1) Did the AC power for the control pass through the same cord (i.e. the measured one) as the power-cell, or was it separate? 2) Did the control share the reservoir with the power-cell? 3) Can you give some idea of the variation in the given parameter values. I.e. how constant were they? 4) I notice that on Dec. 4th, the AC voltage was 120 volts, but on Dec. the 5th that was 140 volts. I wonder could you (or someone else) tell me what the nominal voltage is in CA, (110-115 volts?), and whether such large fluctuations are common. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 07:26:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:07:01 -0800 Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA18087 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:06:56 -0800 Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tPsnq-0005AaC; Wed, 13 Dec 95 09:09 CST Message-Id: Subject: vtx: Units To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:09:06 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: from "Dieter Britz" at Dec 13, 95 08:57:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 404 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk wrote: > ... the Ampere (how would you like Coulomb [!] per second?) Don't you mean 62,422,000,000,000,000,000 electrons per second? :-) Now *that* rolls off the tongue. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 07:31:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18090 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:06:57 -0800 Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18057 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:06:50 -0800 Received: from pppnode0.bahnhof.se (pppnode0 [193.44.91.100]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA22562 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:06:40 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:06:40 GMT Message-Id: <199512131506.PAA22562 sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo sunny.bahnhof.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: grappo bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: Snip etc Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Robert, Dieter, Scott and Charles, Thanks for the info. Gudmund Gudmund Rapp Retired from various aerospace activities: Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Swedish Airforce, Decca Navigator och Radar 133 32 Saltsjobaden and Saab Aerospace. Sweden Voice: +4687178913 E-mail: grappo bahnhof.se From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 08:53:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19301 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:17 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19250 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:10 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA29196; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:04 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 12 Dec 1995 09:56:09 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM *** Reply to note of 12/12/95 09:17 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Takahashi in Sunday Times I notice we have several Swedish individuals on the Vortex. Velcommen! - I would think that Sweden would be vitally interested in proving/disproving the CETI work..... Or is it not true that it is "better to light one Cold Fusion cell, than to curse the (winter) darkness!" (With apologies to Solomon.) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 08:55:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19630 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:44:11 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19551 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:59 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA29231; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:51 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 12 Dec 1995 15:32:15 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/12/95 15:32:00 SMTP *** Reply to note of 12/12/95 15:03 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Jed: Excellant work as usual. From Jim Redding of CETI I have that the length of the runs were roughly: 7 hours on the 4th, 3 hours on the 5th, and 7 or 8 (I 'm not clear on that) on the 6th. As to the verification, the two University groups have verified "excess" with the "low power" cell arrangements, i.e. the .03 to .05 watt input, 3-5 watt output (flow about 15 ml per minute, deltaT values 3 to 5 degrees C.) - I don't think it is accurate to say that any of the corporations interested/ involved have reproduced anything yet. That may be a moot point! - At least one of the corporations has one executive officer that went to (undergraduate? I'm not sure.) school with one of the University professors involved in the "verification" work. I think, in this particular case, that may be why this corporation has given the effort strong credibility. - I have some hints that production of the CETI beads is (for now) a tedious hand operated plating process, and that may be slowing down the production of enough to run more verification tests. - There are certain advantages that having a good "cash flow" will give to this effort. My congradulations to Cravens, who I understand built the 1KW device for under $5K in about 8 weeks from the SOFE conference. HOWEVER, I would hope that when and if he can write some "blank checks" (or be given them) to order "off the shelf" equipment (like the flow meter problem as an example, given 2 or 3 or 5 thousand to play with, you can get a nice digital flow meter delivered overnight from several supply houses) the progress of the work will increase. - I wonder what we could do to try to bring pressure on the Patent office to "get with it" on the extensions, continuations, and new Patents that CETI is working on? - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 08:56:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20411 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:46:25 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20371 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:46:19 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA29425; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:46:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:46:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 13 Dec 1995 07:32:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/13/95 07:32:07 SMTP *** Reply to note of 12/13/95 04:59 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Draft of Brief Report Robin: Without knowing a thing about the measurements at the power Gen, I can assure you the power from the So.Cal.Ed. at the plug in the wall did not go above 125 VAC (RMS)! That doesn't happen here. It might go as LOW as 117 during the summer. But typically the US grid runs 120-125 all the time. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 08:59:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA21100 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:48:30 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA21065 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:48:23 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA29549; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:48:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 13 Dec 1995 07:42:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/13/95 07:42:04 SMTP *** Reply to note of 12/13/95 00:19 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV Actually Dieter, I agree with you. Cycles per second is the proper use for a sine wave type function, and repetitions per second is probably a more graphic example for digital signals.... The Tesla, the Farad, the Volt, are units that have NO physical link to any language. (In other words, what's a Russian word that means "potential difference between two points".)As far as being "Anglo Centered", hey---the Airline pilots speak English, international scientific conferences speak English, India is kept from degrading into feuding localities by "officially" speaking English. I make no apologies for that! Besides that, Hertz rents cars, not Bi, or Tri, or any number of CYCLES. - Back to the "complains" about the CETI demonstration: Please read my letter/article in the latest Mallove Inf.Energy. Yes, Cravens and company "jumped the gun" on this. But I can see why. I think it will behoove them to drop back and let their two universities associated with them verify this. I've already talked to one. Rotometers are "off the shelf" there! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 09:34:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA03934 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:24:55 -0800 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03895 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:24:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:24:48 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199512131724.JAA03895 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 9:24:41 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Short Circuit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The short circuit hypothesis to explain increased temperature rise in the CETI blank cell can not be valid. The decreased coolant hypothesis is tenable. Modern electronically regulated DC power supplies limit their maximum current, according to either an internal fixed and/or an externally adjustable maximum current set point. Typically, when the current limit is reached the power supply continues to operate (though some of them will trip off) and supply the maximum allowable current, but now the potential difference across the load is reduced in accordance with its (lower) resistance. The purpose of this behavior is 1) to protect the power supply electronic components from damage, and 2) to partially protect the load from damage. When a load "short circuits," its resistance decreases to such a low value that the power dissipated in it, RI^2, actually decreases, because of the limited I available from the power supply. This is in sharp contrast to common experience with mains power, wherein the utility company has gone to great expense to ensure that the voltage at the customer's outlet remains almost constant, no matter how much current the load draws. In this circumstance, the power dissipated by the load is V^2/R, which increases with decreasing resistance (short circuit), in agreement with common experience. The hypothesis that the CETI blank cell solution flow decreased is tenable. As with any hypothesis, data are needed to confirm or reject it. In this case the data might not be available, since the CETI cells were running as demonstrations, not as laboratory experiments, when the anomaly occurred. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:40:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA16596 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:58:49 -0800 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA16572 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:58:44 -0800 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA18538; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:57:26 -0500 Date: 13 Dec 95 12:55:11 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Talked with Dennis Cravens Message-ID: <951213175511_72240.1256_EHB153-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I am writing responses to the thoughtful comments by Robin and Deiter. Before I finish them, however, I thought I would pass on some comments from Dennis Cravens. I chatted with him this morning for the first time since the conference. He is rushing off to another meeting at U. Illinois. He tells me that our mutual friend Evan Ragland has been observing the positive feedback results described by Fleischmann at ICCF5, where the temperature goes up 5 degrees and then down 4, never quite cooling off. Evan is working with a Pd cathode in an interesting triode configuration. We did not have much time to talk, but I tried to clarify a number of points that have confused me, particularly about this roached control cell in Test 1. During the conference, Dennis was in motion the whole time, rushing from meeting to meeting with CETI's big gun customers and Strategic Partners, so we barely had time to say hello. Anyway, here are some notes I jotted down today: We agree that in Test 4, the heavy plastic graduated cylinder was good for measuring the flow precisely, but bad for measuring temperature. It held only a small sample of water, which cooled rapidly. He reiterated the important point that several minutes after he dumped out the water, the cylinder was quite warm to the touch. Dennis and I agree there is more than enough cause to reconcile the difference between the 17 deg C Delta T shown on the thermocouples and our external measurement of only 3 Deg C. Yesterday I tried pouring 150 ml samples of warm water into a thick walled plastic cup and by golly, it did the same thing. It cooled down. Just now it occurred to me -- just as I was writing this -- that maybe we used the same pre-heated heavy cylinder to collect the *second* sample, from the control side, to determine inlet temperature. Ha! Heat up the vessel with the first sample, leave it nice and hot for the second one and Hey, presto, the temperatures come out close together. What can I say? We were tired. We were hungry. We went out and had hamburgers and two (2) beers which is one more than I can usually tolerate. A certain person may have a video of this little episode. Maybe he can enlighten us about which vessel was used when. (Not the beer glasses, the graduated cylinder.) I said to Dennis I was muddled about what happened when the control cell failed, because I had just joined the meeting and I was not paying much attention. We hardly got a chance to talk about it last week, except, as I said, for his quick comment the next morning that it was "shorted and plugged up." It is now much clearer to me. I asked "how plugged was it?" He said, "didn't you see us trying to fix it after the test? We could hardly force the water through with that pump." No, I missed that, but anyway the thing was definitely plugged up. When he saw that he removed it immediately, because he figured that it was washing gunk and some kind corrosion into the loop, back into the reservoir, and from there into the cell which was bad news, even with the filter. He opened it up and found it was severely corroded, either oxidated or sulphonated, he does not know, but the tin was peeling off from the beads and it was "a mess." In retrospect, this was not a good choice for a control blank. Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. I asked how did it get corroded so quickly. He said he did not know and for that matter he does not know if it was quick. The cell had been in use for weeks. We don't know when the flow slowed down. It matched the CF cell when they first started running that day, hours earlier. Here is a hint that might explain it. Maybe the electrochemists here can tell us something about this. If not, it is an amusing story anyway. Before the incident, as the crowd sat around the table talking and taking notes, and as I sat trying to remember how to use my wife's camera, Dennis was playing games with the control cell power. He turned the power up the max: 5 volts, 3 amps. He was trying to get it to register a measurable temperature rise in the water. He had never pushed it up so high. The water temperature should have gone up about a quarter degree. When he saw it go higher he thought "uh, oh, I've done something to it." Let this be a lesson to all readers: don't monkey with your trade show demo the evening before the trade show opens. Okay? Got it? No doubt that lesson will instantly vanish from your minds. Nobody can resist twiddling the knobs on his trade show exhibit the evening before the trade show opens. Either that or you notice that connecter which always hangs out too far and you decide to push it all the way in for once and Snap! you break it and Radio Shack doesn't carry them besides Radio Shack is closed and so is your parts distributor and Charlie back your office says he doesn't have one either and the customers are complaining about that very problem so he *warned* you not to push that damn thing in etcetera and so on and so forth. Yes, that's what happens at trade shows. I don't know if Dennis did anything to it just by zapping it with 15 watts, but if he did it is a good thing it happened then instead of the next day in front of the crowd. See? You *should* twiddle the knobs the night before. Yeah! Better yet, take a close look at the components before you pack them, and write down everything Charlie tells you. To make a long story short, Dennis and I feel that the non blank blank is of no significance. We think it can be explained easily. Furthermore, as he put it, "we were just playing around. This was fun and games, not an experiment." This is a portable demonstration unit, not a proper calorimeter. Dennis agrees with me that it was nowhere near as good as the ICCF5 demonstration system. He says "it was not meant to be." It is unclear to me why not. I think the reasons are political, but we did not discuss it. While it is true that this was merely a demo, I did make a serious effort to observe it over three days, and I did confirm the performance as much as I was able under the circumstances. I did not see the flow change on the CF cell side, and I looked *very* carefully, repeatedly. I confirmed the temperatures. The thermocouples are the weak link in this kind of crude flow calorimeter. They are the most vulnerable and trouble prone components, subject to noise, weak batteries in the microprocessor control, etc. So I took great care to confirm the thermocouple readings externally, with thermistors and thermometers. I am confident that the temperature readings were correct. . . . Incidentally, readers who would like to learn the story of the Ultimate Demo System In Hell, during which Everything That Could Go Wrong Did Go Wrong & Charlie Couldn't Help should read the saga of Wilbur Wright in Paris in 1908. He went there to put on a demo. Thanks to the French customs agents and some overzealous French automobile engine mechanics, he spent weeks fighting singlehandedly with torn fabric, broken struts tangled with piano wire, gouged and broken engine parts, etc, etc. The letters and cables between Wilbur, his brother Orville, and the "two Charlies" (their assistants Charles Furnas and Charles Taylor) constitute a classic cry of Trade Show Despair and finger pointing, along the lines of who the hell packed this stuff it was your fault not mine. I quote Wilbur, speaking as older brothers are wont to do, in a missive to O. C. & C dated June 16: "I opened the boxes yesterday, and have been puzzled ever since to know how you could have wasted two whole days packing them . . . I am sure that with a scoop shovel I could have put things in within two or three minutes and made fully as good a job of it. I never saw such evidence of idiocy in my life." - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:31:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA08411 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:57:56 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA08367 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:57:50 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztyx10650; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16176; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:57:23 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 822256100095347FEPRI; 13 Dec 1995 10:56:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 13 Dec 1995 10:56:10 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Talked with Dennis Cravens To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/13/95 10:56:20 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/13/95 10:39 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Talked with Dennis Cravens Jed: Thanks for your work again, again, again, again.....the NOBEL PRIZE for level headedness if ever there is one. I have not called Dennis, as I though "What could I ADD?" I'm going to adhere to that for a while. - I just hope that Dennis and Jim R. and Jim P. realize the IMPERATIVE that U of MoKC and U of IL do their high power experiment. By the way, the Pd/Triode thing is my concept. See the proceedings of the 4th Int. Conf. on CF. Thank you Tom Passell! MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:36:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10339 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:02:33 -0800 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10222 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:02:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 18:50:44 GMT From: CRSM oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <13131 oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: UK mains supply X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 12 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No No No, All Europe is slowly standardising on 230V. The UK used to be 240V (A lot of it still is, cause the new tolerances allow it). Most of western Europe used to be 220V. 230 is a compromise. All is 50 Hz of course. Why is the US still 110V? The wiring must have to be horrendously thick to cope with high wattage appliances. What's wrong with Hertz, It's the use of Siemens instead of Mhos that bugs me. I always like the upside-down Omega. -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:51:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA07561 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:33:48 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA07493 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:33:35 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA09658; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:31:40 -0500 Date: 13 Dec 95 16:29:15 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: UK mains Message-ID: <951213212914_100433.1541_BHG40-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Chris Morriss asks: "Why is the US still 110V? The wiring must have to be horrendously thick to cope with high wattage appliances." Fancy organising the changeover, Chris? We have enough trouble converting from "Never Twice Same Colour" to "Pale And Lifeless" or the other way around. It reminds me of the plans made in the Irish Republic to change over to driving on the right (wrong) side of the road from driving on the left (right) side. Apparently they plan to ease the shock by converting gradually. The first week, only heavy trucks will drive on the right, followed on succeeding weeks by light trucks and cars over 2000cc, light cars, and finally fire engines and ambulances. Police cars will drive in the centre of the road as before. It's like the qwerty keyboard, It's Like That And It Will Stay Like That. I bet that when CETI or other devices are developed to produce domestic electricity we will have different versions for each country. The old standards will prevail indefinitely. On the matter of power generating, I guess that an average family uses about 1kW, and the peak would be maybe 15kW (a cooker - stove - and a shower both running). Maybe about 40kW of heating capacity as well. Seems to me not unreasonable, at 20% power conversion to electricity (OK, 15%!) you could have a reasonably well-balanced arrangement with batteries to handle peak load. Hmm, big batteries! I don't see thermal pollution as a big problem, though if big cities in heatwaves were driving airconditioners it might be awkward. London's ambient is about 1.5degC higher than the surrounding are, I think. Anyway, you can drive an airconditioner quite well thermally - look at the old gas fridges. A car is a different matter, it needs about 50kW, and if the start-up time remains at 10 minutes or more, some pretty meaty batteries to keep you mobile.... (Dons flameproof underwear - I don't mind in the least being flamed for a few off-the-top-of-the-head thoughts.) Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:49:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28755 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:31:20 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA28689 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:31:08 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztzl14131; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23381; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:25:54 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 480325140095347FEPRI; 13 Dec 1995 14:25:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 13 Dec 1995 14:25:14 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: UK mains To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/13/95 14:25:02 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/13/95 13:51 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: UK mains Chris: I'm not going to "flame" you, heck looks like I will be in London 1/29/96 to 2/8/96, so I'd better be nice. (Even if your car is an old one, I'll be on foot mainly.) Anyway the thermal conversion figure? Try about 3% for the temps we are talking about for home heating. But that doesn't take any skin off my nose. You ought to come to Minnesota and live here for a season. We just had a WEEK of 5 degrees F highs (that's -13 C) to -10 degrees F. low (or -20 below C). Our boiler went out in my work building on Monday. It had been out for about 2 hours and the indoor temp had dropped to 59 and was still going down when they got it back up and running. ERGO a "home heating" device which could merely "self susstain" would be fine as far as I'm concerned. - And why should I be concerned? Try Electric Power Res. Inst. Report TR-105405. "Well Head Deliverability of Natural Gas". Ho ho, ho ho, ho ho.... Just on the basis of what happened in the late 70's, and watching gas trends, it will happe n again around 1999, 2000. BUT, add to that the idiot concept of putting 30% of all electric generation on gas, rather than the current 7%, and you have a PRESCRIPTION for disaster! CETI better be right. Even if it takes 5 years to get the first "home units" out, they might be RIGHT ON THE WAVE! (I'd bet- ter watch out, I KNOW what society does to prophets of doom---esspecially when they are right...!) MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 16:17:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA02267 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:58:44 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA02164 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:58:27 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA15318; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 18:57:09 -0500 Date: 13 Dec 95 18:56:36 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: UK mains supply Message-ID: <951213235636_100060.173_JHB74-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Morriss said, >> No No No, All Europe is slowly standardising on 230V. << Well, I've just had major supply surgery at my new home by SEEBOARD (or is it SEEBORED) and the techie wot did it said that the new standard was 220. I'll check back with them and report back. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 16:37:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA10849 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:21:16 -0800 Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA10774 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:21:00 -0800 Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA07496 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:20:51 GMT Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:20:51 GMT Message-Id: <199512140020.AA07496 felix.dircon.co.uk> Received: from gw4-072.pool.dircon.co.uk(194.73.168.72) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma007492; Thu Dec 14 00:20:33 1995 X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: dominic dircon.co.uk (Dominic Murphy) Subject: Re: vtx: O-U on UK TV Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To:Vortex > >I have just noticed that I have the description of the UK CHannel 4 Equinox >programme on o-u. Damn, I've had the BBC listings mag (Radio Times) for days, >I hadn't thought to look. Here it is: > > Channel 4, 7pm GMT, Sunday 17 December > > "The last in current series of the science documentary strand. > > It Runs On Water > > "According to the first law of thermodynamics, you can't get more > energy out of a reaction than you put in. But a number of inventors > around the world claim to have produced machines that are capable of > doing just that. > > "Known as 'over-unity' devices, these machines appear to produce more > heat, more hydrogen and more electricity than conventional calculations > would allow. It is claimed their results could have profound > implications for our knowledge about the structure of matter, and may > some day hold the prospect of a fuel derived from water. > > "But is it all a hoax or an error of measurement? Tonight's programme > talks to three contemporary American inventors with a burning desire to > see their inventions work. Equinox also meets eminent physicist Frank > Close, whose scepticism knows no bounds - he is prepared to bet his > mortgage that the claims will not be proved valid." > >I went for a walk. The other listings magazines used the same press >release, but less of it. > >Dear old Frank. It's good to see a chap with the courage of his >convictions. I did get a call from these people last week, they wanted to >know about Anaheim, they hoped there'd be time to put something about the >latest news into the commentary. > >It would be interesting to study the exact wording of that wager ... > >Chris > I originated the "It runs on water" programme going out on C4 UK on Sunday 17 Dec at 7pm. Though I hasten to add that I am only part of a large team, headed by William Woollard and Lawrence Simanowitz, that has taken the original concept to the programme that you will see. Firstly I must pay a debt of gratitude to the correspondents in V-l and also SPF. Your transactions have helped us to breathe life into the programme. I hope you enjoy the result. Within the limits imposed by a 50 minute popular science programme, I know that we have tried very hard to produce a balanced view of the field. I have not spoken to you before, because I had not seen the final results. Now I have. I believe that the programme will do you service. It is not an unbalanced account. You will see Arthur C., Hal and Griggs and Tom D. and Frank and others, in a serious and constructive mood. There is no sense of wanton position taking or unwarranted controversy. It befits a field that is hopefully maturing into practical usefulness. As I say, it does not tell the whole story. We do not have the scope. But I believe that significant issues will be presented to the public through the programme. Also we were lucky enough to interview Dr Patterson in his lab. shortly after SOFE '95. I hope that will prove to be historic footage. I am unable to furnish Chris with a preview tape. I'm sorry about this, because he was helpful in providing background information (though he is, of cause, completely innocent of any errors and omissions we might have made). But I'm sure he will see it on Sunday. dominic > dominic murphy +44 (0)181 747 0499 ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:25:00 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA18543; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:24:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:24:58 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: help! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:01:00 +0200 > From: ITIM Computers > To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com > Subject: help! > > Dear Friends, > > The utcluj e-mail line on which I am receiving Vortex and the > majority of the messages is interrupted somewhere between > Bucharest and Amsterdam; therefore I'll receive Vortex only > with a 2-3 days delay. Sorry for this loss of information. > If somebody has a personal message for me, please use > or fax 40-64-420042. > Thank you Bill Beaty for diffusing this message! > Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 03:07:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA29226 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:19 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA29209 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:16 -0800 Received: from s3c0p4.aa.net (s3c0p4.aa.net [204.157.220.136]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA31294 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:09 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512141059.CAA31294 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: UK mains Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To:Vortex > >Chris Morriss asks: > > "Why is the US still 110V? The wiring must have to be horrendously > thick to cope with high wattage appliances." > >Fancy organising the changeover, Chris? We have enough trouble converting >from "Never Twice Same Colour" to "Pale And Lifeless" or the other way >around. > >It reminds me of the plans made in the Irish Republic to change over to >driving on the right (wrong) side of the road from driving on the left >(right) side. Apparently they plan to ease the shock by converting >gradually. The first week, only heavy trucks will drive on the right, >followed on succeeding weeks by light trucks and cars over 2000cc, light >cars, and finally fire engines and ambulances. Police cars will drive in the >centre of the road as before. > >It's like the qwerty keyboard, It's Like That And It Will Stay Like That. I >bet that when CETI or other devices are developed to produce domestic >electricity we will have different versions for each country. The old >standards will prevail indefinitely. > Hell, we can't even get converted over to metric, though it has been official for nearly 15 years, I believe. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 05:07:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA16218 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 04:56:42 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA16205 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 04:56:37 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA32040; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:57:18 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:57:18 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: UK mains In-Reply-To: <199512141059.CAA31294 big.aa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Chris Morriss asks: > > > > "Why is the US still 110V? The wiring must have to be horrendously > > thick to cope with high wattage appliances." I should have replied straight away, instead of now, twice removed, but -. One good reason I have seen mentioned for using 110 V is that this is not enough to give you a serious shock, whereas you know it if you touch a 220 V terminal. This would of course depend on how wet your skin is. But it seems a pretty good reason to me. One might instead ask why Europe and in fact most other countries still are on 220 V. By the way, PAL seems pretty good to me - what's the problem, Chris? One of these decades, though, we'll all go to HDTV and large flat screens hanging on walls. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 06:58:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA12262 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 06:49:29 -0800 Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA12227 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 06:49:21 -0800 Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA07274; Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:49:14 EST Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:49:14 EST Message-Id: <9512141449.AA07274 clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: vtx: UK mains X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Chris Morriss asks: >> >> "Why is the US still 110V? The wiring must have to be horrendously >> thick to cope with high wattage appliances." snip We just can't let you guys perpetuate this myth about the North American grid any longer, but since none of the power utility engineers have stepped in yet, here goes. In North America, we have the best of both worlds it seems, as every house has access to 110 or 220 volt at the service. We employ a 2 phase system, with a common neutral. Our heavy appliances (clothes dryers, arc welders, electric ranges etc.) are powered at 220 via both phases, and for the sake of safety, our 'lectric razors and hair dryers only tap into a single phase at 110. Until you mentioned this Chris, it never occured to me that you only deal with a single phase distribution to you homes. Now those screwy little 2 prong adaptors for travelling overseas make sense to me :-) Thanks Oh yes...as an aside to Michael M's lament, Canada has been at least partially successful in converting to metric. We now measure our speed, fuel and food consumption in kilometres and litres per 100 km and kiilograms, but we still build houses with 2x4s and 4x8 sheets of plywood. Some trades and technologies hold on to the past a bit more tenaciously (let's hope this isn't the case with the burning of fossil fuels!!) regards Gary From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:02:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA13176 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 06:53:25 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA13156 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 06:53:21 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA19169; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:31:22 -0500 Date: 14 Dec 95 09:28:36 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: UK mains Message-ID: <951214142836_100433.1541_BHG56-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Dieter asks what I have against PAL. Nothing really, except that there *would* have to be two (actually there are others, like SECAM and a variant on NTSC), wouldn't there? Don't get your hopes up over the new high-definition stuff - it turns out they'll have an NTSC and a PAL version of that too. And of course domestic video cameras operate on local standards... As for the 110V, yes, you have a good point. These things are always a balance. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:45:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA25054 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:33:50 -0800 Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA25035 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:33:46 -0800 Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA01400; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:34:24 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:34:24 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: UK mains In-Reply-To: <9512141449.AA07274 clark.dgim.doc.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Gary Steckly wrote: > In North America, we have the best of both worlds it seems, as every house > has access to 110 or 220 volt at the service. We employ a 2 phase system, > with a common neutral. Our heavy appliances (clothes dryers, arc welders, > electric ranges etc.) are powered at 220 via both phases, and for the sake > of safety, our 'lectric razors and hair dryers only tap into a single phase > at 110. > > Until you mentioned this Chris, it never occured to me that you only deal > with a single phase distribution to you homes. Now those screwy little 2 > prong adaptors for travelling overseas make sense to me :-) Thanks This may be correct for homes but maybe not; in any case, Europe, too, has so-called three-phase power for heavy machines etc. I think this provides a higher voltage than the standard 220 V. We have such an outlet in our block of flats, so I reckon this is an option for private homes, too. I am pretty sure we have three-phase in Australia. There, too, some non-metric units survive after a fashion. Jam tends to come in jars of "454 g"... and I'd be surprised if horses did not still run so many furlongs. I hope the Russians are not getting annoyed at this off-topic stuff; izvenitye! -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 09:06:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19343 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:48:36 -0800 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19296 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:48:27 -0800 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA22650; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:46:49 -0500 Date: 14 Dec 95 11:42:14 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Response to comments on Brief Report Message-ID: <951214164214_72240.1256_EHB74-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Robin van Spaandonk asks: "1) Did the AC power for the control pass through the same cord (i.e. the measured one) as the power-cell, or was it separate?" It was the same cord. "2) Did the control share the reservoir with the power-cell?" Same reservoir. That was the point. "3) Can you give some idea of the variation in the given parameter values. I.e. how constant were they?" Which ones? Flow on the CF side did not change measurably. (I did not measure it on the control side). The cell has a constant voltage power supply. Once the reaction settled in and temperatures reached stable levels, electrolysis amps did not change much. Total input power in one case varied from around 0.1 to 0.3 watts. The Delta T temperatures changed slowly by a degree or two. "4) I notice that on Dec. 4th, the AC voltage was 120 volts, but on Dec. the 5th that was 140 volts. I wonder could you (or someone else) tell me what the nominal voltage is in CA, (110-115 volts?), and whether such large fluctuations are common." The AC was jumping around. In the hotel room it got up to 120 or 130 V when I was watching. Over in the Convention Center it was 140+, much too high I think. I am glad I was not an exhibitor with expensive equipment. These trade shows are hell on equipment. Dennis said he saw it going up to 140 in the hotel too. However, I happen to have a photo that Kawasaki made of the Radio Shack voltmeter plugged into the wall. Whipping out my trusty magnifying glass here . . . I see that it is 118 or so, which is normal for Atlanta. Dieter Britz wrote: "The anode and cathode getting shorted is not enough to explain the 216 W output in the control cell, since a total of 85 W was going into the system. So there must have been a flow blockage as well. Right. As I reported yesterday, after I left the Monday evening meeting they tested the flow and found a blockage. "In which case a neutral observer should be shown a continuous flow meter on the machine. Rotameters are cheap and easy to buy." Yes. The system should have had flowmeters; they were sorely missed. A flowmeter alone is not sufficient. You must have a manual method of measuring flow into a container as well, to verify that the flowmeter is working correctly. "There should also, of course, be continuous indication of cell voltage and current - these would indicate a short at a glance. There was continuous indication of voltage and current. I think Dennis must have glanced at these as he fiddled with controls and realized something was wrong. You will find photographs of the equipment layout including the multimeters in John Logajan's home page. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 10:44:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27435 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:31:58 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA27343 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:31:46 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuco11328; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33312; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:31:32 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 431330100095348FEPRI; 14 Dec 1995 10:30:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Dec 1995 10:30:10 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/14/95 10:30:11 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Put up to buy a .05 watt in, 30 watt out CF cell? (Money back if it doesn't work!) - $100, $400, $2000? - In other words, consider CETI making them for $25 each. Consider Edmund selling them as a "science fair curiosity" for like $125. How many could they sell? 1000? 10,000? Hey, at $125 10,000 sales would be a million dollar turn over. - There is some indication that I have that people WOULD buy them as a curiosity, and pay some number of $$$ for that privilage. - I think CETI needs to get off the "corporate delusion". Big corporations are NOT dynamic enough to go with this sort of change. This is either advanced on its own, or it will "die on the vine". - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 11:13:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA08469 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:01:20 -0800 Received: from ddi.digital.net (ddi.digital.net [198.69.104.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA08363 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:01:04 -0800 Received: from [198.69.104.143] (pm4_11.digital.net [198.69.104.143]) by ddi.digital.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA13961 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:57:36 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:58:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tilleyrw digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- >Put up to buy a .05 watt in, 30 watt out CF cell? (Money back if it doesn't >work!) [snip] I whole-heartedly agree! I would put $250 (twice your price) down on the table immediately if I could buy a CF cell from Edmund that would have an input of 0.5 watts and an output of 30 watts. Think about how fast the REALITY of cold fusion would spread across the nation! Then investors would come running to CETI to buy a part of the New Age of CF! --------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, | | and why. Then do it." -- Lazarus Long | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Robert Tilley * tilleyrw digital.net * "Once upon a time..." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | *** --- *** --- http://ddi.digital.net/~tilleyrw --- *** --- *** | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 11:28:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14628 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:16:59 -0800 Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA14572 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:16:48 -0800 Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA17013; Thu, 14 Dec 95 14:16:40 EST Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 14:16:40 EST Message-Id: <9512141916.AA17013 clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Earlier today, Mark Hugo wrote: >Subject: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- >Put up to buy a .05 watt in, 30 watt out CF cell? (Money back if it doesn't >work!) > >- >$100, $400, $2000? >- >In other words, consider CETI making them for $25 each. Consider Edmund selling >them as a "science fair curiosity" for like $125. How many could they sell? >1000? 10,000? Hey, at $125 10,000 sales would be a million dollar turn over. >- >There is some indication that I have that people WOULD buy them as a curiosity, If you want to capture the attention of the masses, you would need to make a self sustaining cell. Perhaps if you applied this heat to a peltier device with a good heat sink, driving it as a thermocouple generator instead of a heat pump, and generate enough electricity to drive the cell directly. The public may not quite grasp the intricacies of the proof through calorimetry, but a unit with no wires attached would capture the attention of a lot of people. Add a few lights and really get their attention. I realize that peltier devices are very inefficient, but with a gain of 1000 or more, this CETI cell has to be approaching the levels where this type of self sustaining operation is feasible no? This would also be the definitive proof to any remaining skeptics, and remove the questions that always seem to surround calorimetry, no matter how well it is done. Has CETI got any plans to do anything like this Jed? Gary From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 11:33:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA22830 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:19:29 -0800 Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA22751 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:19:14 -0800 Received: from pppnode1.bahnhof.se (pppnode1 [193.44.91.101]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA16869 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:18:51 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:18:51 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199512141818.TAA16869 sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo sunny.bahnhof.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: grappo bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: UK mains and CF introductory problems Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Good evening, Thank you Mark for wishing me welcome on the network. Getting on for 73 years of age, I must confess that I like the mode of communication existing on vortex-l. This blend of very accurate attention, seriousness and light-heartedness gives me great pleasure.=20 The discussion about the mains in Europe and USA is indeed hilarious. If anybody is interested, in Sweden, every house, villa and flat have a five lead main input; three phases, a zero and earth. Every phase has a 16 amps fuse. All heavy duty stuff like stoves and washing machines are run on 3-phase; 360 volts, and other appliances on 220 volts. The system is not completly safe because, if by accident, the earth outside the building is disconnected you may get a terrific jolt from any metal electrical appliance. There you are, you can=B4t win them all, not even in Sweden (ha,ha,ho,ho).=20 Somebody mentioned in connection with the succesful demo of the CETI cell that Oil Companies and other big business and Government agencies have not caught on to this yet. In my opinion, this is now the most important question. The commercial launch on the market of various products with OU-performance=20 will induitably cause a "lot of disturbance and frustration" in all quarters interested in power and money (to put it very mildly).=20 How can we contribute to avoiding a killing of ideas, development and production of appliances benificiary to us all? In my opinion, this network has so far contributed a lot in making the designs, results and interested parties known to a very large public. It would be almost impossible to try to suppress the facts. Governments, however, have a tendency to make laws. It is for instance, at least in Sweden; not permitted to make your own boose at home. The stuff has to be bought in special stores at very heavily taxed prices. The cost for a private still is on the other hand very small.=20 Talking about energy, it is not permitted in Sweden to have a wind generator, via a suitable connector, coupled to the general energy network in order to lower your energy cost. In my mind, the introduction of a "free energy device" is fraught with problems.=20 I dont know if this network is the right forum to discuss these problems, but in the end they may prove to be much more difficult than the technical= ones. Is anybody on this network interested to start a dialogue about these problems and how to tackle them? Best regards Gudmund Gudmund Rapp Retired from various aerospace activities: Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Swedish Airforce, Decca Navigator och Radar 133 32 Saltsjobaden and Saab Aerospace. Sweden =20 Voice: +4687178913 E-mail: grappo bahnhof.se From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 11:49:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20991 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:34:06 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA20934 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:33:55 -0800 Received: from s3c0p0.aa.net (s3c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.132]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18161 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:32:17 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:32:17 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512141932.LAA18161 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: vtx: Energy Politics Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ah yes, the lovely head of politics rears its warty mien. Gentlemen: I humbly and hopefully helpfully suggest that we tag this discussion with distinctively good headers whilst our ever over-worked moderator bbeaty determine if these political discussions get out of hand and require a seperate listserv. > >Somebody mentioned in connection with the succesful demo of the CETI cell >that Oil Companies and other big business and Government agencies have not >caught on to this yet. In my opinion, this is now the most important >question. The commercial launch on the market of various products with >OU-performance >will induitably cause a "lot of disturbance and frustration" in all quarters >interested in power and money (to put it very mildly). > >How can we contribute to avoiding a killing of ideas, development and >production of appliances benificiary to us all? In my opinion, this network >has so far contributed a lot in making the designs, results and interested >parties known to a very large public. It would be almost impossible to try >to suppress the facts. > >Governments, however, have a tendency to make laws. It is for instance, at >least in Sweden; not permitted to make your own boose at home. The stuff has >to be bought in special stores at very heavily taxed prices. The cost for a >private still is on the other hand very small. > >Talking about energy, it is not permitted in Sweden to have a wind >generator, via a suitable connector, coupled to the general energy network >in order to lower your energy cost. > >In my mind, the introduction of a "free energy device" is fraught with >problems. >I dont know if this network is the right forum to discuss these problems, >but in the end they may prove to be much more difficult than the technical ones. > >Is anybody on this network interested to start a dialogue about these >problems and how to tackle them? > >Best regards >Gudmund >Gudmund Rapp Retired from various aerospace activities: >Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Swedish Airforce, Decca Navigator och Radar >133 32 Saltsjobaden and Saab Aerospace. >Sweden >Voice: +4687178913 >E-mail: grappo bahnhof.se > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 12:06:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA27865 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:52:25 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA27840 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:52:20 -0800 Received: from s3c0p0.aa.net (s3c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.132]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA19109 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:50:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:50:38 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512141950.LAA19109 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- >Put up to buy a .05 watt in, 30 watt out CF cell? (Money back if it doesn't >work!) > >- >$100, $400, $2000? >- >In other words, consider CETI making them for $25 each. Consider Edmund selling >them as a "science fair curiosity" for like $125. How many could they sell? >1000? 10,000? Hey, at $125 10,000 sales would be a million dollar turn over. >- >There is some indication that I have that people WOULD buy them as a curiosity, > >and pay some number of $$$ for that privilage. >- >I think CETI needs to get off the "corporate delusion". Big corporations >are NOT dynamic enough to go with this sort of change. This is either >advanced on its own, or it will "die on the vine". >- >MDH Dear MDH: I am going to post some comments related to "corporate delusion" under the subject header "Energy Politics" very shortly. As far as survey goes, this is a very interesting question. I would rather see about 100 watts as an output cell. With 100 watts it is easier to jerryrig some usefully visable work to drive the point home. A demo toy is a great idea but let's make it more than a trinket. Let's make it just solid enough to sit there an do something within the framework of useful meaningfulness. We could make it a hair dryer. (no, just kidding, please guys, I'll shut up here :)) For 100 watts, I would pay the $250 but I like the idea of $1.00/watt. That makes a very neat simple equation for communicating the economic significance of the invention. Even corporate politicians might grasp it. I believe that installed capacity for new energy generation ranges from about $4/watt to $10/watt but it has been many years since I looked at that stuff and I might be off by a magnitude or two. Mark??? Can you provide a some ratios? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 12:08:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA28966 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:55:32 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA28927 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:55:25 -0800 Received: from s3c0p0.aa.net (s3c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.132]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA19212 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:53:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:53:42 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512141953.LAA19212 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Earlier today, Mark Hugo wrote: > >>Subject: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- >>Put up to buy a .05 watt in, 30 watt out CF cell? (Money back if it doesn't >>work!) >> >>- >>$100, $400, $2000? >>- >>There is some indication that I have that people WOULD buy them as a curiosity, > >If you want to capture the attention of the masses, you would need to make a >self sustaining cell. Perhaps if you applied this heat to a peltier device >with a good heat sink, driving it as a thermocouple generator instead of a >heat pump, and generate enough electricity to drive the cell directly. The >public may not quite grasp the intricacies of the proof through calorimetry, >but a unit with no wires attached would capture the attention of a lot of >people. Add a few lights and really get their attention. > >I realize that peltier devices are very inefficient, but with a gain of 1000 >or more, this CETI cell has to be approaching the levels where this type of >self sustaining operation is feasible no? > >This would also be the definitive proof to any remaining skeptics, and >remove the questions that always seem to surround calorimetry, no matter how >well it is done. > >Has CETI got any plans to do anything like this Jed? > >Gary > This is an excellent and obvious idea. Any other loop back schemes which are easy to implement? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 13:00:20 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA16082 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:41:43 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA16000 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:41:27 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzucw11772; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09713; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:39:33 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 841438120095348FEPRI; 14 Dec 1995 12:38:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Dec 1995 12:38:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/14/95 12:38:13 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/14/95 12:05 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Mike M. Gas turbines: $400/KW, Coal Plants $2500/KW (or $.40 and $2.5 per watt) Nuclear about $3500 /KW. BUT, these comparisons are somewhat distorted as Gas/Coal/Nuke need fuel. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 13:31:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28009 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:14:56 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA27966 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:14:48 -0800 Received: from s3c1p3.aa.net (s3c1p3.aa.net [204.157.220.143]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA23774 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:11:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:11:42 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512142111.NAA23774 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/14/95 12:05 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- >Mike M. Gas turbines: $400/KW, Coal Plants $2500/KW (or $.40 and $2.5 >per watt) Nuclear about $3500 /KW. BUT, these comparisons are somewhat >distorted as Gas/Coal/Nuke need fuel. > thanks Mark I am going to work up some stuff on this numbers related to Patterson cell... ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 13:37:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29565 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:19:12 -0800 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA29528 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:19:05 -0800 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA11555; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:17:06 -0500 Date: 14 Dec 95 16:15:38 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you Message-ID: <951214211538_100433.1541_BHG35-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex I'm using this title, but some of it relates to Gudmund. Being partly Norwegian, I have some sympathy and understanding for Gudmund's position. He is concerned about the possible suppression of the CETI device, but also about legal amtters. To be honest, this idea of revolutionary technolgy being suppressed seems to lack evidence. Our (I'm talking about Gene Mallove, Jed Rothwell and I) are firmly of the opinion that the greatest enemy of any revolutionary concept is the inventor himself or his company. We see this over and over again, and there are plenty of examples from the past - from Galileo to the Wrights. Maybe we should not even skip too lightly over Our Heroes - Fleischmann and Pons. This is the Own Worst Enemy (OWE) syndrome. We firmly believe that CETI should "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap", and that applies to tiny demo units as well as licenses. If the new cell geometry or new beads are awaiting patent filing, then file the patents and sell the things. If they are a big problem to make - sell the old-style beads while improving the process. Great. But we cannot expect CETI to act in what they would not see as their own best interests. Any complaining at CETI would come from such as those here, who have a very different agenda - let's admit that. We want the technology out and spreading fast. There are three ways to do this, and only one involves CETI. The other two, which could easily proceed in parallel, would be to foster the spread of the academic side of this. At present we have only two Universities working on the thing. We want more, right? And the other thing is to go for it *ourselves*. The basic patent is not like the Piantelli one, we think it has the basic information in it. I suggest that even 'standard' Ni-plated beads are well worth trying. If "we" in the sense of people who are not directing academic research and who have no direct connection with CETI were to devise a good system from the basic patent, then CETI would have to accept a royalty payment - I presume. On Gudmund's point about excessive government regulation, I agree. I too know the 'vinmonopolet' and its horrors. But governments are not speedy animals. 'We' could, I think, move faster. There is the question also of safety. As far as I know, no significant radiation has ever been seen in a water/nickel machine. As far as I know, no *water*/nickel machine has ever gone into thermal runaway. The only problem would be if regulatory bodies were to demand that the proponents themselves had to prove the safety of the machines. In the case of small demonstrators, that should not be a matter of concern. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 15:04:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02297 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:47:15 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02260 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:47:08 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzudf10470; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11630; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:54:32 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 431553120095348FEPRI; 14 Dec 1995 12:53:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Dec 1995 12:53:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/14/95 12:53:14 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/14/95 11:13 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Hey Guys! This is working great. I'm really pleased with this. I think I'll keep track for a week. Looks pretty strong that a number of Vorticians would pay 200 to 300 $ US for a demo device. If I keep getting this response, I will talk to Edmund next week and then I'll talk to CETI. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 15:04:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02369 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:47:33 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02351 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:47:29 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzudf10611; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17251; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:52:34 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 611851120095348FEPRI; 14 Dec 1995 12:51:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Dec 1995 12:51:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: UK mains and CF introductory problems To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/14/95 12:51:17 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/14/95 11:33 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: UK mains and CF introductory problems Gudmund: As intrusive as the "Government" is in Sweden, I think that having your own source of generation which is "independent" of the grid probably wouldn't be a problem. What you might not understand is that having a "source" on the consumer side of the grid, feeding back up good old George Westinghouse' s AC system can represent a considerable hazard to the normal utility mainten ance people. If you have a "source" at your house and feed back into the grid, you could be putting in 220 at your busbar, but putting 4000 to 8000 volts out on the distribution grid. Now NORMALLY work done on the 4160 (or forty one sixty) secondary feeders in the US is done by "locking out" the feed to the local network. (Thus causing a local outage for from 5 to 10 houses or small businesses.) The work then, can be performed "hands on" without gloves. Now, granted, this work is always performed by grounding the line to assure that there is no power. But I can assure you that in a country of 250,000,000 people, with 100,000,000 customers, and thus about 10,000,000 local 4160 type transformers, that somewhere, sometime, someone is going to cut the power at the local pole switch, and forget to ground--- but do the work assuming the line is dead. This is a significant consideration therefore. And it IS considered in the US, where a law called PURPA (Public Utilities Resources Purchase Act) insists that the local utilities DO make provision to allow the consumer to "feed back". So now our utilites DO work with consumers with "wind generators", and in some cases, home generation, or more likely light commercial business "co-generation". Now the fundemental diff. here is, the Swedish utility is National isn't it? Probably much more convinient just to say, "Yeah, sure---keep your source off our lines--- we don't want the trouble." I'm willing to bet, if you had a "totally indepen- dant" source, no one would care if you were DISCONNECTED from the grid. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 16:53:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA12925 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:39:42 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA12889 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:39:35 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA13350; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:38:02 -0500 Date: 14 Dec 95 19:36:17 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you Message-ID: <951215003616_100060.173_JHB86-5 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said, >> prove the safety of the machines << Do you mean that infants might choke on the beads, or that when used as bedwarmers they might leak? Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 16:55:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA11355 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:35:04 -0800 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA11254 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:34:46 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQztys25033; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24303; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:39:22 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 111138090095347FEPRI; 13 Dec 1995 09:38:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 13 Dec 1995 09:38:09 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Short Circuit To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/13/95 09:38:09 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/13/95 09:34 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Short Circuit Good point, Mike S. All the more reason to ask and hope for some lab work at some schools with some "3rd party" groups. I don't think this is out of line. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 21:13:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA07955 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:02:58 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA07941 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:02:55 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA24415; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:01:36 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 00:00:42 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417 compuserve.com> To: Vortex list Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Message-ID: <951215050042_75110.3417_CHK51-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Mark, >> Looks pretty strong that a number of Vorticians would pay 200 to 300 $ US for a demo device. If I keep getting this response, I will talk to Edmund next week and then I'll talk to CETI. << Umm. Would you think that members of this list just might be willing to pay a wee bit more than the average science 'nut' for this device? If all it does is work and look pretty, without doing too much useful, then I suspect the limit is below $100 for a demo unit. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 22:30:32 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA29546 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:21:52 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA29525 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:21:44 -0800 Received: from net-1-132.austin.eden.com (net-1-132.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.132]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA10788 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:21:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:21:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512150621.AAA10788 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I'm inclined to up the ante... I've already spent >$200 just to buy Li2SO4, a pump, Pd-coated beads, plastic tubing, etc. I was extremely fortunate to "find lying around" enuf Pt screen to make the two electrode contacts (~$500 worth). Now I've got to make the cell and get it all assembled and then try to make it work... I think I'd probably spring for a $1000 cell, if it was guaranteed to work....and I think there's a ton of other folks who would join me. Such a price would stop the average individual...but those guys could pitch in with several of their friends and get one to share... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 22:50:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA04151 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:40:18 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA04137 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:40:14 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id WAA02103; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:40:14 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:40:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: Martin Sevior Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) > > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- > Put up to buy a .05 watt in, 30 watt out CF cell? (Money back if it doesn't > work!) > > - > $100, $400, $2000? > - I'd happily pay $2000.00 for one if it worked. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 23:11:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA09498 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:01:53 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA09485 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:01:51 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA04104; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:01:49 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:01:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:59:38 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Michael Mandeville said: > This is an excellent and obvious idea. Any other loop back > schemes which are easy to implement? A low pressure boiler (in a separate fluid loop) running a turbine connected to a generator should be doable. You want the fluid to boil at about 35 degrees C and run the condenser in air. Probably carbon tetracloride would work fine as the working fluid, or a methyl alcohol/ethel ether mix. A flat plate condenser would work just fine. I'm already mentally designing such a device to put under the Christmas tree. This is toy shop engineering, but makes a real point--that all that is required for commercial applications is scale up. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 23:31:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA13697 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:21:54 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA13625 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:21:42 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA06344; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:21:40 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:21:39 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: CETI-bead science kits In-Reply-To: <199512150709.XAA11189 mail.eskimo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:11:36 -0900 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) > Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- ... > Regarding stirring up knowlege and interest, another thing to do would be > to sell a kit, or even better, plans and/or parts, to test *NEW* electrode > materials, configurations, electrolytes, etc., in addition to CETI beads. > I'll bet tin shot would get a few rounds of tests! 8^) Hundreds of kids > and amateurs would be testing all kinds of stuff. ... > such a thing could be done safely and effectively, I might be willing to > donate my time totally free for a couple years to help bring it about. > Maybe someone like Matell could be persuaded to manufacture it at a reduced > cost. Or in more recent memory, everybody was trying to make yttrium/copper/oxide powder and pound it into disk-shaped molds for baking, at least until several science suppliers started selling pre-made chunks. The hi-temp superconductor craze? And even more recently we were all tempted by the Sci Am article to plunk down $100 for some Barium Titanate transducers for the Sonoluminescence demo. One of those early superconductor-chunk suppliers, Arbor Scientific, is on internet at http://branch.com/arbor/. Peter Rea is the owner. I bet he'd be very interested in supplying another type of "superconductor kit." .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 23:33:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14055 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:23:24 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA14011 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:23:15 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA06476; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:23:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:11:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- I would be willing to pay at least $200 for a working cell, more, depending on what it did, how it was instrumented, and how long it would work. I think the main problem in the US with selling such a gadget is business licensing and insurance. To obtain a manufacturing license, you need an insurance undewriter, unless you are a major corporation and can post a bond in the megabucks. To get insurance you are going to have to get underwriter labs approval. This probably will not happen for a device that issues forth H2 and O2 without some thoroughly tested and approved combiner or venting device. There is also a question of lithium sulfate toxicity. Big bucks expenditures ahead. Also, there is the patent rights issue which probably has a long litigious future. To license, do you go to Enenco, CETI, both, others? Will the P&F patent dominate CETI's? If the owner of a patent wants to grant exclusive or highly limited rights, or keep all manufacturing rights, he can do so in the US. The patent owner can shut out or shut down anyone he pleases provided he pursues development of the protected method or device (you can't patent something just to keep the idea from being used). Perhaps Robert Bass could expound some in that he is expert in these questions, and he still has an account. Regarding stirring up knowlege and interest, another thing to do would be to sell a kit, or even better, plans and/or parts, to test *NEW* electrode materials, configurations, electrolytes, etc., in addition to CETI beads. I'll bet tin shot would get a few rounds of tests! 8^) Hundreds of kids and amateurs would be testing all kinds of stuff. Maybe it would be like after the ruby laser was found, when it seemed like just about everything transparent was suddenly found to lase. The important thing would be to make sure H2 dangers were controlled. Distributing free kits to high schools world wide would be a very worthy cause for some philanthropic individual or group. If the purpose were strictly for experiemntation, and the cells were given away at no cost, and for use in controlled supervised high school labs, I believe the main problem or patent obligation is then for the experimenter to send $1 US to the address on the patent of the patent holder, with a note that that the individual is using the patent for reaserch. A form included in the kit should be helpful in that regard. If such a thing could be done safely and effectively, I might be willing to donate my time totally free for a couple years to help bring it about. Maybe someone like Matell could be persuaded to manufacture it at a reduced cost. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 01:58:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA08348 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:49:52 -0800 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA08341 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:49:50 -0800 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA29153; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 04:48:31 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 04:45:19 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you Message-ID: <951215094519_100433.1541_BHG102-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Scott, PALLADIUM-coated beads? What? Is this not a slip? Norman, Comments on the safety of the CETI device. First, we have the problem of thermal runaway with Ni/H gas-phase, which has supposedly happened witha Piantelli device. I can't see that happening, the whole idea of the microspheres is to get a huge number of active sites, so that some of them not working (or going crazy) doesn't matter. Anyway, I've bever heard of a water/Ni system running wild. Then there is the matter of pressurised systems, used to give high temperatures of maybe 200C. Obvious questions there, but the electrolyte (Li2SO4) is pretty safe. Does it need to be a lithium salt?? But look, Norman - this is producing power through some unknown process. The only candidates we have for an energy source are proton-proton fusion, which sounds utterly silly but which can't be totally ruled out; pd fusion (but it isn't that in gas-phase Ni/H); or 'weird' like ZPF. It's all very well our saying that there's no obvious radiation, therefore the thing is entirely safe. We can't even predict how it might start to behave after six months of use. Until the mechanism is reasonably well understood (the nuclear hypotheses are at least testable), then how can we guarantee that it is safe? If it were pp fusion, then presumably the neutrino flux would be very large. Neutrinos go though planets without much effect, but does that mean that a high flux is safe? Could there be some unknown radiation? The fact that the CETI machine works proves that we don't fully understand our physics, so what dangers might lurk in this thing? Chris From tap-l listserv.appstate.edu Fri Dec 15 06:19:13 1995 Received: from listserv.appstate.edu (root listserv.appstate.edu [152.10.1.21]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA17670 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 06:19:11 -0800 Received: from listserv.appstate.edu ([152.10.1.21]) by listserv.appstate.edu with SMTP id <10491-1>; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:18:30 -0500 Message-Id: <9512151409.AA14487 unlinfo.unl.edu> Reply-To: tap-l listserv.appstate.edu Originator: tap-l listserv.appstate.edu Sender: tap-l listserv.appstate.edu Precedence: bulk From: cbettis unlinfo.unl.edu (clifford bettis) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Card and spool (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:18:26 -0500 Status: RO X-Status: > > > At 9:30 12/14/95 -0500, KARSHNER stmarytx.edu wrote: > >William, > > HOw do you explain the old card on the spool trick, where you blow > >air through the hole on a thread spool dwonward and it will hold a card to the > >bottom of the spool. > > I bet this has something to do with a fast-moving air film between two > surfaces. If so, it is probably a somewhat different effect than that > which produces airfoil lift. If you blow through a tube instead of a > spool, this effect doesn't work, and the card is simply blown away. If > you move the card a short distance away from the spool, again it is blown > away. Only when the air is forced to spread radially between a narrow gap > between the card and the face of the spool does the attraction seem to > kick in. > > ....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > > > William, Whatever the details of the airflow across the card, as you have implied befor Newton's Third law must be obeyed and somehow there must be a net downward deflection of the airstream if there is an upward force on the card. I am not crazy about the prevalence of Bernoulli's priciple in introductory books. I think it is widely mis-applied in a hand waving sort of way. I.E. the airplane wing (how do you know it "explains" the lift, can you calculate the lift without further assumptions, is it valid to assume conservation of energy in such a situation, and what kind of explanation is this anyway) or the beach ball or curve ball. I think authors like it because it is another application of the conservation of energy and you can come up with a few textbook sort of problems that can be solved with it. But I don't know of any intuitive way to understand it and as an explanation for the airplane wing, I think it isn't as good as using Newtons' laws. I would agree with you about the explanations being fundamentally equivalent, except that Newton's law does not require you to assume energy is conserved. Cliff Bettis From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 08:32:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19768 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:14:30 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19751 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:14:26 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA05116; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:14:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:35:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- >I'm inclined to up the ante... > >I've already spent >$200 just to buy Li2SO4, a pump, Pd-coated beads, >plastic tubing, etc. I was extremely fortunate to "find lying around" enuf >Pt screen to make the two electrode contacts (~$500 worth). Now I've got to >make the cell and get it all assembled and then try to make it work... > >I think I'd probably spring for a $1000 cell, if it was guaranteed to >work....and I think there's a ton of other folks who would join me. Such a >price would stop the average individual...but those guys could pitch in with >several of their friends and get one to share... Maybe looking for cheap substitutes is the first order of busines? Sounds like the Pt is first to go! Maybe a nickle or gold plated copper screen replacement? Maybe use a cheap microprocesser with a/d and use a small LCD panel to display results. Thermisters are pretty cheap, true? Flow meter/pump could be star wheel type, with contacts or photocell used to count revolutions. Packaged by Matell it would be swell! 8^). Combinations of (Na, Mg, K, Ca, Ti, Mn, Fe, Ni, Cu, etc.) plus ions with (SO4, OH, NO3, PO4, F, Cl, etc.) negative ions should be tested to get the price down. Toxicity would also be a consideration (F and Cl don't sound very good!) Maybe a kit should have a buch of salts, just like a chemistry set. Mix and match and you have a science project. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 08:52:00 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA24252 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:28:49 -0800 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA24229 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:28:45 -0800 Received: from 204.111.1.74 (eb1ppp10.shentel.net [204.111.1.74]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA18505 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:30:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199512151630.LAA18505 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 11:33:22 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: How much $$ would you To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951215094519_100433.1541_BHG102-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex: My own experience in this area of marketing packaged science experiments in the United States has not been so good. Having attempted this with a number of Russian science kits, all ended up costing me much more than I would ever have dreamed. First I found the legal problems unbelievable. Step one in a project cost me $100K to make sure we had covered all the legal bases, step two cost me another $200K to cover the bases that the first $100k had not covered. I found that when I sold only hardware (no chemicals) to informed adults, things went a bit smoother. My suggestion (based on a long hard road) is to sell a hardware kits minus the chemicals. Include several addresses of suppliers of the chemicals and hope for the best. Edmund (you should try and speak with the daughter) is a good place to start. A few months ago they told the company was looking for new and exciting products. I should also add that the US was the only country that we had legal problems in. Japan buys several million dollars a year of science related kits from my Russian associates without the problems encountered in the US market, the same is true in most other countries. (NTT, by the way sells a cold fusion kit in Japan, you my wish to speak with them.) Just an interesting side bar.... A reputable magazine in the US surveyed it's readers several times over the years asking: " What do you think is you best chance of becoming rich (in the US)" 1954 winning reply " inheritance" 1982 winning reply " win the lottery" 1992 winning reply " sue a big company and win" I for one would be in favor of anything (almost) that would improve the scientific literacy in the US, so if I can help let me know how. Some of my Associates are repeating the experiment just outside of Moscow. Most of the parts and peices for this experiment are a lot cheaper there, and I do not have to worry about being exposed to some unknown radiation :). (Harold knows I got more that my quota of that while working at Chernobyl.) Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:08:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA27105 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:37:49 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA27036 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:37:36 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA08983; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:37:26 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:23:34 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear Vortex-Coreans, In discussions following the PowerGen demonstration of the Patterson Cell (one act of many, next year we shall see a lot!) Robert Eachus has analyzed the possibility of ZPE capturing by the colliding microspheres. Unfortunately neither the CETI group nor the team of Prof. Miley hasn't published or announced results of crucial experiments excluding the possibility of any nuclear source of energy (isotopic analysis of the metal coating ante and post long time electrolysis, feeding with pure light hydrogen oxide, Li-6 vs Li-7 electrolyte), therefore the search for ZPE has not yet an "official" experimental basis. Anyway, in my opinion the capturing of usable profound energy is highly improbable at the level of millimeters characteristic for Patterson beads. The concept of active sites (catalytic centers and cavitation bubbles) developed by me states that the game is played at the level of nanometers. Therefore, I am on the part of Dieter in his dispute with Robert Eachus re. micro ZPE harnessing, it isn't micro, it's nano! We are missing such a theory yet, but perhaps the following paper can stimulate such a development. It's about sonolumine- scence and this puzzling phenomenon is closely related to ZPE capture, I think. ............... J. Phys. Chem. 1995, 99, 14619-27 CONFINED ELECTRON MODEL FOR SINGLE-BUBBLE SONOLUMINESCENCE. Lawrence S. Bernstein, Mitchell R. Zakin Spectral Sciences Inc., 99 South Bedford Street, Burlington, Massachusetts 01803 AUTHORS' ABSTRACT. The origin of sonoluminescence, the conversion of acoustic energy into ultraviolet/visible radiation in liquids, has remained elusive. We propose that the emission arises from electrons confined to voids in the hot, dense fluid formed during the the final stages of bubble collapse. Such electrons are produced by the high-temperature ionization of the bubble constituents. A hard sphere model was developed for the fluid structure, thermodynamics, and confined electron emission. the model is consistent with the observed spectral distributions, power output, and time scale associated with emission from single cavitating rare gas bubbles. Effective temperatures during emission in the 200-700 nm spectral window are predicted to range from 20 000 to 60 000 K. CONCLUDING REMARKS. A simple confined electron model of SBSL has been developed and shown to be consistent with the experimentally determined spectra, time scale, and power levels for cavitating bubbles containing pure He, Ar, and Xe. This model is based on a physical description of SBSL that includes the following fundamental elements: (1) the bubble collapse produces a high-density, high-temperature fluid, (2) the thermodynamic state of the bubble fluid is consistent with an adiabatic description of the collapse process, (3) voids form in the high density fluid and are characterized by a broad distribution of sizes, (4) electrons produced by high-temperature ionization of the bubble atoms become trapped in the voids, (5) the confined electrons, reasonably described by a particle-in- a-box spectral model, give rise to a continuum emission spectrum in the visible and ultraviolet regions, and (6) the strong dependence of the total bubble emitted power on the fluid density gives rise to a very short emission time scale. Analysis of experimental SBSL spectra using the hard sphere model indicates an effective temperature for ultraviolet/visible emission of 20 000- 30 000 K for XE , 30 000-40 000 k for Ar, and 45 000- 60 000 for He. Application of the hard sphere model to both mixed Rg/N2 SBSL spectra and the strong underlying continuum observed in most multiple- bubble sonoluminescence spectra will be reported elsewhere. ....... This paper is a challenge for our theorists. The important paper announced by Physics News was published: R. A. Hiller, S. J. Putterman "Observation of isotope effects in sonoluminescence" Physical Review Letters 75:19 (NOV 6, 1995) 3549-3551. In my opinion, with the advent of reasonably well founded studies in our field, the organization of strong interdisciplinar teams is a MUST. New, perfectly organized demonstrations with the Patterson Cell, with the Piantelli device, or (why not!?) with Potapov generator as well as publications re. THE TRUE NATURE OF THE F & P PHENOMENON by scientists enjoying high prestige as Prof. Miley could help a lot. Peter Gluck P. S. Our American friends interested to get in touch with Dr. Yuri Potapov can call these days at 810-8281464, at his son Vladimir in Detroit. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:56:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA20074 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:43:53 -0800 Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA20026 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:43:44 -0800 Received: from pppnode23.bahnhof.se (pppnode23 [193.44.91.123]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA18479 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:43:22 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:43:22 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199512151743.SAA18479 sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo sunny.bahnhof.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: grappo bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: Survey and introduction problems. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, Your survey question and all the answers to it gave me a lot to think about in connection with the queries I have about introduction problems. Personally, I think that an experimental kit (mail-order stuff) or something like that would be a very good way indeed to introduce OU without calling it that( I think it is very important not to call it a OU-machine). Ideally it should be self-supporting with an excess power of at least 1 watt. So, if the whole thing can start in such a way, I believe the introductory problems I imagined could be smoothened out. Count me in as a potential customer, price depending on design and performance - for starters, USD 100 to 1000 sounds ok. (I still remember when stationary toy steam engines were very popular). And thanks for all your advise. Gudmund Gudmund Rapp Retired from various aerospace activities: Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Swedish Airforce, Decca Navigator och Radar 133 32 Saltsjobaden and Saab Aerospace. Sweden Voice: +4687178913 E-mail: grappo bahnhof.se From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 10:50:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA09708 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:37:28 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA09623 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:37:16 -0800 Received: from net-1-203.austin.eden.com (net-1-203.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.203]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA15611 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:36:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:36:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512151836.MAA15611 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Pd coated beads X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From Chris: >Scott, > >PALLADIUM-coated beads? What? Is this not a slip? No slip. It's all I can get right away...and the patent speaks -only- of Pd coated beads...it must've worked to some degree with them. I am hoping for some "real" beads. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:00:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26852 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:48:33 -0800 Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA26813 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:48:27 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzugp09820; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17425; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:48:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 641347120095349FEPRI; 15 Dec 1995 12:47:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Dec 1995 12:47:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/15/95 12:47:12 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/15/95 11:12 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Pd coated beads PS Scott: are your beads poly styrene are noted in the Patent? I think doing glass is a mistake. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:01:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26558 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:47:46 -0800 Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA26497 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:47:37 -0800 Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzugp09531; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11270; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:47:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 780146120095349FEPRI; 15 Dec 1995 12:46:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Dec 1995 12:46:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/15/95 12:46:00 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/15/95 11:12 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Pd coated beads OK Scott, are you doing heavy water? You may want to stick to that. - Good luck, should you or any of your IM team be caught or killed... - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 15:38:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA25333 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:27:12 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA25306 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:27:06 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA12579; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:25:46 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 18:24:45 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: Survey Question - How much $$ would you --- Message-ID: <951215232445_100060.173_JHB88-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> a number of Vorticians would pay 200 to 300 $ US for a demo device. << I would certainly stump up US$200 for a CETI demo device. Probably a couple would be safer!! One to give to the RIGB and the other to run as a standby. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 15:38:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA25444 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:27:29 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA25380 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:27:19 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA12600; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:25:59 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 18:24:49 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: vtx: UK mains and CF introductory problems Message-ID: <951215232448_100060.173_JHB88-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> I'm willing to bet, if you had a "totally indepen- dant" source, no one would care if you were DISCONNECTED from the grid. << FWIW, some years ago, when we were suffering from frequent blackouts, I built a motor alternator set from army surplus bits, and trained my family to go through a routine of isolating all the internal circuits from all three phases which came in via 3 meters. The MA set would then be started by hand cranking and we fed two houses with 3kW of 50Hz 240V. We even ran the TV sets - lousy picture but at least the soaps were vivible. I admit I failed to inform the authorities of what I was doing, but as our two houses were the only illuminated ones in the district during the power cuts, there was no secret, and we had no adverse reaction. I made sure that we didn't feed back into the grid. Imagine my wife cranking a sodding great single cyl. petrol engine in the depth of winter after doing a detailed round of pulling fuses from the critical circuits! In those days I was often away from home for a week at a time, so Pearl was alone. The point I'm trying to make here is that there are more ways of skinning a cat than the obvious, and providing local power for domestic use would be a very popular service at a number of levels. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 17:05:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA24464 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:54:47 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA24399 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:54:36 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA17661; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:53:13 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 19:51:55 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you Message-ID: <951216005154_100060.173_JHB79-4 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris T. >> Comments on the safety of the CETI device. << I was joking mate Or were you replying to someone elses more intelligent comments? Norman From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 17:16:46 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA28037 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:05:48 -0800 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA28017 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:05:44 -0800 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA27392; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:04:20 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 20:02:02 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: vtx: UK voltage Message-ID: <951216010202_100060.173_JHB67-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've checked with our supplier with the following result: The existing standard is 240v +/- 6% 50 Hz The Re-declared Standard (EC regulations) is 230v +10% -6% 50Hz So this gives either 225.6v to 254.4v Or under the new EC regs. 216.2v to 253v You pays your money and takes your choice. I measured our mains today and got 230/235 fluctuating. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 18:29:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA19652 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:20:55 -0800 Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA19623 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:20:48 -0800 Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA25298 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 16 Dec 1995 02:20:43 GMT Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 02:20:43 GMT Message-Id: <199512160220.AA25298 felix.dircon.co.uk> Received: from gw4-007.pool.dircon.co.uk(194.73.168.7) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma025287; Sat Dec 16 02:20:24 1995 X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: dominic dircon.co.uk (Dominic Murphy) Subject: vtx: OU prog. UK Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry Scott, Lawrence has gone to Aus. for a sunny Xmas. I'll try to get a copy to you soonest. dominic dominic murphy +44 (0)181 747 0499 ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:30:22 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id SAA04418; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:30:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:30:19 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: Martin Sevior Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:10:07 -0800 (PST) > > >From Chris: > > >Scott, > > > >PALLADIUM-coated beads? What? Is this not a slip? > > No slip. It's all I can get right away...and the patent speaks -only- of Pd > coated beads...it must've worked to some degree with them. > > I am hoping for some "real" beads. > A lot of the discussion of the CETI beads has focussed on the Nickel as being the important ingredient. At least the Pd/Ni boundary. I think the hardest part of making CETI beads is putting the initial copper coat on the polymer core. If you've got Pd already, putting the required thickness of Ni may not be too difficult. I don't know how to do it but electroplating firms are pretty numerous. Have you tried contacting one and getting a quote for some small scale Ni plating? Deiter's our reside electrochemist. Could any competent electroplating firm put 50 microns of Ni on a collection of 1mm Pd coated beads? Did these beads use to live in Catalytic converters? If so you may not need to worry of the coatings peeling off at high temperatures. The exhaust gasses of cars are pretty hot. I think this is a great idea and well worth trying, especially with an extra Ni plating. There is already a large scale industry turning out Catalytic converters. This is an important point I think. CETI has no experience in large scale manufacture. They really need help and lotsa money. They have every incentive to stir up interest in their device. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 20:47:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA28487 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:37:45 -0800 Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA28338 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:37:24 -0800 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA10588 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:37:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199512160437.AA10588 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:37:06 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: No Subject Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 23:36:25 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:23:34 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear Vortex-Coreans, In discussions following the PowerGen demonstration of the Patterson Cell (one act of many, next year we shall see a lot!) Robert Eachus has analyzed the possibility of ZPE capturing by the colliding microspheres. ................................................................... The mico spheres are stuck in a holder. They cannont move. The holder provides electrical contanct. ZPE is captured by an electron condensation. Puthoff come to this conclusion. Ken Shoulder's device operates in this manner. I talked with Miley. He has a theory called the , "The swarming electron theory." According to this theory the electron density exceeds the density of sold matter a the point where the two metals contact. As Buch would would say, "Read my lips" ZPE is captured by an electron condensation. Frank Znidarisc ..................................................................... yet, but perhaps the following paper can stimulate such a development. It's about sonolumine- scence and this puzzling phenomenon is closely related to ZPE capture, I think. ............... J. Phys. Chem. 1995, 99, 14619-27 CONFINED ELECTRON MODEL FOR SINGLE-BUBBLE SONOLUMINESCENCE. Lawrence S. Bernstein, Mitchell R. Zakin Spectral Sciences Inc., 99 South Bedford Street, Burlington, Massachusetts 01803 AUTHORS' ABSTRACT. The origin of sonoluminescence, the conversion of acoustic energy into ultraviolet/visible radiation in liquids, has remained elusive. We propose that the emission arises from electrons confined to voids in the hot, dense fluid formed during the the final stages of bubble collapse. Such electrons are produced by the high-temperature ionization of the bubble constituents. A hard sphere model was developed for the fluid structure, thermodynamics, and confined electron emission. the model is consistent with the observed spectral distributions, power output, and time scale associated with emission from single cavitating rare gas bubbles. Effective temperatures during emission in the 200-700 nm spectral window are predicted to range from 20 000 to 60 000 K. CONCLUDING REMARKS. A simple confined electron model of SBSL has been developed and shown to be consistent with the experimentally determined spectra, time scale, and power levels for cavitating bubbles containing pure He, Ar, and Xe. This model is based on a physical description of SBSL that includes the following fundamental elements: (1) the bubble collapse produces a high-density, high-temperature fluid, (2) the thermodynamic state of the bubble fluid is consistent with an adiabatic description of the collapse process, (3) voids form in the high density fluid and are characterized by a broad distribution of sizes, (4) electrons produced by high-temperature ionization of the bubble atoms become trapped in the voids, (5) the confined electrons, reasonably described by a particle-in- a-box spectral model, give rise to a continuum emission spectrum in the visible and ultraviolet regions, and (6) the strong dependence of the total bubble emitted power on the fluid density gives rise to a very short emission time scale. Analysis of experimental SBSL spectra using the hard sphere model indicates an effective temperature for ultraviolet/visible emission of 20 000- 30 000 K for XE , 30 000-40 000 k for Ar, and 45 000- 60 000 for He. Application of the hard sphere model to both mixed Rg/N2 SBSL spectra and the strong underlying continuum observed in most multiple- bubble sonoluminescence spectra will be reported elsewhere. ....... This paper is a challenge for our theorists. The important paper announced by Physics News was published: R. A. Hiller, S. J. Putterman "Observation of isotope effects in sonoluminescence" Physical Review Letters 75:19 (NOV 6, 1995) 3549-3551. In my opinion, with the advent of reasonably well founded studies in our field, the organization of strong interdisciplinar teams is a MUST. New, perfectly organized demonstrations with the Patterson Cell, with the Piantelli device, or (why not!?) with Potapov generator as well as publications re. THE TRUE NATURE OF THE F & P PHENOMENON by scientists enjoying high prestige as Prof. Miley could help a lot. Peter Gluck P. S. Our American friends interested to get in touch with Dr. Yuri Potapov can call these days at 810-8281464, at his son Vladimir in Detroit. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 23:06:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA04786 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 22:56:47 -0800 Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA04756 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 22:56:42 -0800 Received: from net-3-027.austin.eden.com (net-3-027.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.27]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA21202 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:56:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:56:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512160656.AAA21202 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A with the forwarding, it's a little harder to figure out who sent the message, but I think that Martin Sevior said: >Have you tried contacting one and getting a quote for >some small scale Ni plating? Deiter's our reside electrochemist. Could any >competent electroplating firm put 50 microns of Ni on a collection of >1mm Pd coated beads? 1. The bead schematic drawing on Logajan's web page indicates that the thicknesses are more like 1 micron....not 50. Has this changed? 2. Dieter, I am curious about the electroplating of Pd. A big reference book I have on metal plating indicates that commercial Pd coatings are not done with electroplating but rather evaporation or sputtering. Would you expect Pd to be "difficult" to electroplate? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 10:46:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA04329 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA04226 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id KAA18370; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:31:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:31:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: non-vortex question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have an electrochemist question that came up while emailing kids about electricity experiments. In the "lasagna cell" effect, where the shorted battery formed by lasagna in a steel pan eats holes in the aluminum foil, what might be the chemical reactions involved (assuming saline lasagna)? might the reaction products be poisonous? does the steel pan corrode also, or is only the aluminum attacked? At one point I isolated the foil from the pan with plastic film, used artificial lasagna made from wadded paper towel and salt water, connected the foil and pan together with a switch, and when suddenly switched on, the corrosion ate holes in the foil in about an hour. Another successful control of nature by mankind?! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 11:31:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA18050 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA18007 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id LAA26753; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:18:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:18:58 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortcore-L will be up soon, when the eskimo sysop creates some majordomo files. I've been thinking about buying vortex-L its own account. This would create a permanent place for message archives, photos, web page, software, etc. It would also make vortex-L more like an independant "net-journal" and less dependant on the continued existance of an individual. Several future projects would become feasible, such as automatic posting of emailed GIFs and documents to the website, message archives on the WWW viewable by thread, author, keyword-search, etc., newsgroup-style email message space on the web (with pictures instead of ASCII art!) There are numerous, less staid projects possible: - Realtime webchat facility for online conferences. - Fancy realtime-online-graphed-continuous-thermocouple-output- anomaly-experiment-webcamera-projects. (SOME people put realtime hot-tub temperature graphs and continuously updated images of half-full coffeemakers on the Web. Why not a CETI cell? Watch it via WWW on GIF-video while you robotically poke it with a stick to prove it's real? - Give Jed a wireless webcam to haul to the next symposium, so we all can look at the events through a slow stillframe video peephole? - ?? Anyone want to help financially? A donation of $10/year would go a long way towards the $120/year plus $12/year/10meg for the basic site fees. And any extra would go a long way towards convincing my wife that the internet isn't just a worthless hobby which cuts into family time! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:19:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA01636 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA01576 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA07541; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:04:17 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:04:16 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > > There are numerous, less staid projects possible: > > - Realtime webchat facility for online conferences. I think that the Internet Relay Chat is sadly underused for such serious communication. Right now it is almost totally used by teenagers bantering mindlessly and wasting time. It is a distributed real-time chat system, set up according to channels. Creating a channel and securing it is trivial. IRC client software is available for every platform. Its speed is incredible. Most responses take under 2 seconds to reach their destination. It is easily accessible from any nation. Also, the use of AIs, called "bots", is common. I think it would be a trivial matter to set up a bot system whereby one of the users on the channel was actually a program that responded to requests for information by users on the system. A bot could provide, for instance, periodic table reference information, or serve a MAPLE command line for real-time calculations, and might be able to serve ascii graphs on the spot. Such a system would be a revolutionary linking of scientists doing distributed, real-time, content-rich brainstorming. One such session a week, lasting 90 minutes or more, would be a highly efficient complement to the discussions on the list, but not a replacement for them. I was inspired to this idea since my only experience with web-chatting was disappointing as it was slow and choppy, and the IRC experience is much smoother and more transparent, and I think is more advanced since there is a long tradition of IRC usage, complete with much programming that supports it. > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:52:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA10705 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA10699 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-147.austin.eden.com (net-1-196.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.196]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA20011 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:42:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:42:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512162042.OAA20011 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: the future of Vortex X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty, you may have my $10/yr and I expect every member of this forum to follow suit and I hope that you get a significant surplus from the fees...you certainly deserve it. Charles Hope said: >A bot could provide, for instance, periodic table reference >information, or serve a MAPLE command line for real-time calculations, >and might be able to serve ascii graphs on the spot. Such a system would >be a revolutionary linking of scientists doing distributed, real-time, >content-rich brainstorming. This really sounds cool...especially if we start getting some positive results to discuss. Please name a couple of IRC clients for Windows so I can get one and learn how to use it. Thanks From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:19:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA17870 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA17858 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA18549; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:09:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: the future of Vortex In-Reply-To: <199512162042.OAA20011 natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > Bill Beaty, you may have my $10/yr and I expect every member of this forum > to follow suit and I hope that you get a significant surplus from the > fees...you certainly deserve it. > > Charles Hope said: > > >A bot could provide, for instance, periodic table reference > >information, or serve a MAPLE command line for real-time calculations, > >and might be able to serve ascii graphs on the spot. Such a system would > >be a revolutionary linking of scientists doing distributed, real-time, > >content-rich brainstorming. > > This really sounds cool...especially if we start getting some positive > results to discuss. Please name a couple of IRC clients for Windows so I > can get one and learn how to use it. I have an IRC text file that tells all, including where to get clients, and barebones usage, and is mercifully small. I will send it directly to all all who ask, unless someone's willing to put a pointer to it from a web page (It is already out there at http://www.kei.com/irc.html). I am already, as we speak, trying to score a copy of the AI that the Christians use on their channel: whenever someone types a Bible reference with an symbol before it (@ John 3 16, for example) this AI serves forth that quotation. Think how this could be modified for all sorts of wickedness (link it to the Chemical Rubber Book and serve fusion temperatures and Curie points) > > Thanks > > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:32:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA20862 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA20852 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id NAA18043; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:22:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:22:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:21:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question [snip] >In the "lasagna cell" effect, where the shorted battery formed by lasagna >in a steel pan eats holes in the aluminum foil, > > what might be the chemical reactions involved (assuming saline lasagna)? > > might the reaction products be poisonous? > > does the steel pan corrode also, or is only the aluminum attacked? > [snip] I think the battery effect is primarily from citric acid fron the tomato sauce. For proof, you might want to check the ph at your local garden store if you don't have a ph kit/meter. Aluminum salts are still legal to put in food products (check out your morton salt, or, even worse, baking powder, or antacids other than Tums), even though aluminum concentrations in the brain have been tied to dimentia. Heavy aluminum concentrations have also been found in beached whales. My family does not consume anything in an aluminum container or wrapper or use aluminum foil without a plastic wrap underneath. Hmmm..., I noticed the school system went to aluminum plates about the time test scores started dropping, I wonder? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:34:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA24598 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA24541 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA09986 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:25:26 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512162325.PAA09986 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:24:42 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: the future of Vortex Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > > >I am already, as we speak, trying to score a copy of the AI that the >Christians use on their channel: whenever someone types a Bible reference >with an symbol before it (@ John 3 16, for example) this AI serves >forth that quotation. Think how this could be modified for all sorts of >wickedness (link it to the Chemical Rubber Book and serve fusion >temperatures and Curie points) > really interesting tool - haven't heard of it before. Yep, let's incorporate into Bill's new Vortex web setup. It is trully due. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:36:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA25261 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA25245 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA10091 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:28:17 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512162328.PAA10091 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:27:33 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: >> >> There are numerous, less staid projects possible: >> >> - Realtime webchat facility for online conferences. > for the most part I think chat line by line interaction is terribly boring. my mind and life activity is far too hyperspeeded to abide by the slowness of the text line by line. pix by pix, since each is worth the proverbial 1000 words, that I could abide. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:36:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA25261 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA25245 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA10091 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:28:17 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512162328.PAA10091 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:27:33 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: D > > >On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: >> >> There are numerous, less staid projects possible: >> >> - Realtime webchat facility for online conferences. > for the most part I think chat line by line interaction is terribly boring. my mind and life activity is far too hyperspeeded to abide by the slowness of the text line by line. pix by pix, since each is worth the proverbial 1000 words, that I could abide. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:56:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA00536 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA00513 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA10888 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:46:35 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512162346.PAA10888 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:45:51 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >Vortcore-L will be up soon, when the eskimo sysop creates some majordomo >files. > >I've been thinking about buying vortex-L its own account. This would >create a permanent place for message archives, photos, web page, software, >etc. It would also make vortex-L more like an independant "net-journal" >and less dependant on the continued existance of an individual. > >Several future projects would become feasible, such as automatic posting >of emailed GIFs and documents to the website, message archives on the WWW >viewable by thread, author, keyword-search, etc., newsgroup-style email >message space on the web (with pictures instead of ASCII art!) > >There are numerous, less staid projects possible: > > - Realtime webchat facility for online conferences. > > - Fancy realtime-online-graphed-continuous-thermocouple-output- > anomaly-experiment-webcamera-projects. (SOME people put realtime > hot-tub temperature graphs and continuously updated images of half-full > coffeemakers on the Web. Why not a CETI cell? Watch it via WWW on > GIF-video while you robotically poke it with a stick to prove it's real? > > - Give Jed a wireless webcam to haul to the next symposium, so we all > can look at the events through a slow stillframe video peephole? > > - ?? > >Anyone want to help financially? A donation of $10/year would go a long >way towards the $120/year plus $12/year/10meg for the basic site fees. And >any extra would go a long way towards convincing my wife that the internet >isn't just a worthless hobby which cuts into family time! > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > twas inevitable. was wondering when you would so query... i think what I would do, Bill, is to create a semi-open system, whereby those who are users or abusers of this listserv, as the case or point of view may be, should be on the honor system to pony up $20 to defray the cost of the website for the next year ahead and hopefully buy you and your wife at least one excellent dinner out on the town. then what I would do is develop the material into webbables with cool tools, such as mentioned and archive, etc, which is accessible to new comers to the list by subscription of say $20 per six montn, maybe more, or maybe just simply on the honor system again, donating something. we need some volunteer help on that. we definitely oughta do a webcam, given that camcorders are so inexpensive these days. we would need to have a national isp account (such as earthlink, netcom, etc) for local access in most cities to ftp, email, or maybe even video conference the stuff to your eskimo site. maybe we should all search our souls and see if we can't on a totally cooperative spirit contribute say $100, or actual good stuff, or so entrusted to your initiative to buy some tools, accounts, and a few dinners for you and your wife, etc. to cybernate this interaction at even more dynamic levels. maybe i should contribute to typing up non-profit paper status for this vortex, though i cringe at the thought of stooping to institutionaling it (it only encourages the bureaucrats to sustain their delusions of control). there are some advantages, however, such as giving isp's a graceful way to GIVE accounts or temp time and formally declare the foregone fee a charitable tax deduction, etc. many ways to make cooperation work and i encourage any additional thoughts ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 16:41:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA12004 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA11977 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id QAA15124; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:32:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:32:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L In-Reply-To: <199512162346.PAA10888 big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops! Ron M. points out that I haven't posted my snailmail address: William J. Beaty 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117-5625 .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 16:45:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA12368 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA12351 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzukw27196; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20406; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:33:30 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 390732160095350FEPRI; 16 Dec 1995 16:32:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Dec 1995 16:32:16 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/16/95 16:32:06 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/15/95 23:06 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Scott: I have a friend at a local precious metals plater. They DO use electrochemistry to plate Pd. The solution, however, is NOT Pd Chloride, iit is some sort of complexing agent, cyanide based? I don't know, but I can find out. Do you want me to? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 16:47:32 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA13051 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA13031 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzukw27326; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13262; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:36:30 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 514935160095350FEPRI; 16 Dec 1995 16:35:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Dec 1995 16:35:16 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/16/95 16:35:48 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/15/95 17:05 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you Norman, sorry I was so droll. I can vaguely remember what you said, and I can also remember that I OBVIOUSLY wasnt thinking humor at the time. Forgive me please, I'm going to watch Bill Murry in Scrooged tonight and try to get some humor back. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 16:47:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA12820 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA12800 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzukw27302; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11977; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:35:30 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 190634160095350FEPRI; 16 Dec 1995 16:34:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Dec 1995 16:34:16 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/16/95 16:34:05 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/15/95 18:39 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads No, these things did not come from catty converters. Patterson is a former researcher (retired) for Dow. They are the base materials into which they place the ion exchange resins. That's why he used them. Yes, there may be some connection with catalysis, but only chemical. Maybe even biochemical From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 17:50:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA26916 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA26877 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA24671; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:40:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:40:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L In-Reply-To: <199512162346.PAA10888 big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 17 Dec 1995, Michael Mandeville wrote: > >Anyone want to help financially? A donation of $10/year would go a long > >way towards the $120/year plus $12/year/10meg for the basic site fees. And > >any extra would go a long way towards convincing my wife that the internet > >isn't just a worthless hobby which cuts into family time! > > twas inevitable. was wondering when you would so query... > > i think what I would do, Bill, is to create a semi-open system, whereby > those who are users or abusers of this listserv, as the case or point of > view may be, should be on the honor system to pony up $20 to defray the cost > of the website for the next year ahead and hopefully buy you and your wife > at least one excellent dinner out on the town. Yep, the Shareware model applies: if you find the service useful, make a contribution, and if your budget is tight, give only what you can. And the reverse, of course! Vortex-L is created almost entirely by its users, so any added contribution would be along the lines of "club dues" which will mostly be used to pay rent on the meeting hall. And maybe buy some communal equipment for members' use. Subscribers currently number about 50, so I figure that $10/year is the minimum (assuming 1/3 or 1/2 the subscribers find vortex-L useful and will contribute.) This for the yearly single-user account fees. For future projects, $20 or more would be more appropriate. As far as ISPs, for now eskimo.com has bargain-basement prices with full shell access and a friendly user community full of internet experimenters who know this system. I tried Netcom last year, and I can't recommend them (for remote access, I'd rather give money to the phone company than to Netcom!) I don't know anyone at the U. of Washington, but there's a small chance that cheaper space could be found locally at the "U-dub." Webcam stuff can be done with almost nothing but volunteer labor. The Connectix B/W camera is $100 and eliminates the need for a framegrabber card, and CuSeeMe live video software is freeware at present (but being picked up by White Pine Inc.) I've tried to run this at work, but haven't had the time to figure a way past the barrier of Novell TCP/IP weirdness on our inhouse system. And at present, the audio channel requires a Macintosh and a 28K link or better on a low-traffic system. Ah, if only the infamous Griggs Trip had been equipped with a laptop, cellphone, CCD camera, and a big crowd of voices yelling realtime instructions over "NetPhone!" Scary thought: s.p.f. rents someone as a warm body, then wanders the world as an internet-linked, contribution-driven, groupmind-controlled "Borg", dropping in on unsuspecting CF workers! Scarier thought: Vortex-L could go meet Potapov in this form... Anyyyway... Nonprofits: I'm currently on the board of one involved in science education. It's very possible that I could get permission to put some part of vortex-L under their umbrella, which would provide above-board financial organization and clear the way for possible corporate contributions. They're small though, and couldn't contribute much besides their umbrella. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 17:52:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA27472 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA27407 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA25050; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:43:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:43:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:26:58 -0900 From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question [snip] > >At one point I isolated the foil from the pan with plastic film, used >artificial lasagna made from wadded paper towel and salt water, connected >the foil and pan together with a switch, and when suddenly switched on, >the corrosion ate holes in the foil in about an hour. Another successful >control of nature by mankind?! > [snip] Sorry, I didn't read carefully enough - I see you used salt water. I'll bet the foil was the anode! At the anode you should attract Cl-, thus, to some degree yielding HCl and AlCl, right? Dieter is the guy who has the answers I'll bet. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 17:53:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA27608 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA27586 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA25186; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:44:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:31:21 -0900 From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L >Vortcore-L will be up soon, when the eskimo sysop creates some majordomo >files. > [snip] > >Anyone want to help financially? [snip] You can count on my $10. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 19:18:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA16086 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA16008 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.136 (eb3ppp8.shentel.net [204.111.1.136]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA04641 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 22:08:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199512170308.WAA04641 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 22:10:39 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: snip >place the ion exchange resins. That's why he used them. Yes, there may >be some connection with catalysis, but only chemical. Maybe even biochemical > Pd beads are quite common in petroleum refining. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 19:29:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA18696 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA18644 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.136 (eb3ppp8.shentel.net [204.111.1.136]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA05457 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 22:20:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199512170320.WAA05457 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 22:17:46 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: the future of Vortex To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512162042.OAA20011 natashya.eden.com> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, little eden.com (Scott Little) wrote: >Bill Beaty, you may have my $10/yr and I expect every member of this forum >to follow suit and I hope that you get a significant surplus from the >fees...you certainly deserve it. I agree with the funds! Two other things, I use IPHONE, an over the internet voice server to "talk" with a group of russian scientists. Also we use MathCad 6 which has a built in internet data chat function. Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 02:27:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA07080 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 02:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA07071 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 02:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA08797; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 05:12:35 -0500 Date: 17 Dec 95 05:10:14 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Message-ID: <951217101013_100060.173_JHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles said, >> Most responses take under 2 seconds to reach their destination. It is easily accessible from any nation. << Relating to the Internet Relay Chat. There is one little problem it seems to me, and that is that all the contributors have to be awake at the same time. This can be somewhat red-eye making, depending on where the C of G of the discourse falls at any given time. Apart from that it seems a marvelous system. How does it work? Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 04:39:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA23304 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 04:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA23287 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 04:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA19504; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 07:24:53 -0500 Date: 17 Dec 95 07:23:14 EST From: Wolfram Bahmann <100276.261 compuserve.com> To: VORTEX-L Subject: vtx: on the survey question - how much ... Message-ID: <951217122314_100276.261_JHF45-4 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ref.: On the survey question - how much $$ would you - Dear Vortexians, my opinion about the acceptable price of a CF demo kit (of the CETI kind) is that it surely depends on the addressed group: up to $200 would be ok for science interested youngsters. up to $1000 for hobby scientists and $3000 or more would be no problem for companies or professional labs. But ... what are you going to demonstrate ? That heat is produced, proving this fact by some reliable instruments or have the customer to connect his own meters ? I want to remind you of the contribution of Harold Puthoff on the occasion of the ISNE '94 in Denver (the 2nd Int. Symposium on New Energy) , titled 'The One-Watt-Challenge'. + + + Alternative Energy Sources: Good News/Bad News and "The 1-Watt Challenge" Harold Puthoff ABSTRACT In researching innovative energy sources, we are faced with a good news/bad news situation. On the good news side, new arenas of research activity are being opened up and pursued vigorously. These range from relatively mainstream approaches to develop solar energy, to highly innovative approaches to extract energy from vacuum fluctuations. On the bad news side, despite varying degrees of claimed success, there are as yet no stand-alone devices in this class (with the exception of solar devices) that unambiguously demonstrate the generation of net excess energy to the satisfaction of the consensual research community. It is suggested here that the credibility of these efforts requires meeting what we call "The 1-Watt Challenge," the demonstration of a device that can continuously generate, on a stand-alone, self-powered basis, a minimum of at least 1 watt excess average output power. + + + If there is enough interest on the complete paper I will scan and OCR it and put it on the forum. We should support this kind of demo kit because of its !!evidence!! in showing o/u ! The equipment with some meters of reasonable quality is of course a nice feature for instant readings but the self-sutainability is what the device MUST demonstrate. This should serve as the real proof of feasibilty of o/u otherwise you always get involved in input/output calculations and evaluations. ... and let us first have some dozens of the bulk kits and then think about a mass production. kind regards, ------------------------------ Wolfram Bahmann INE & P.A.C.E. board member Feyermuehler Str.12 D-53894 MECHERNICH Germany fax: Int+49/ 2443-8221 e-mail: 100276.261 compuserve.com From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 07:30:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA06855 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 06:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA06849 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 06:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-161.austin.eden.com (net-1-161.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.161]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA24486 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:09:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:09:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512171409.IAA24486 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/15/95 23:06 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads >Scott: I have a friend at a local precious metals plater. They DO use >electrochemistry to plate Pd. The solution, however, is NOT Pd Chloride, >iit is some sort of complexing agent, cyanide based? I don't know, but I can >find out. Do you want me to? Yes, please. I might have to get into it myself. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 10:19:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA20578 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA20556 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id KAA14549; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:04:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:04:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: on the survey question - how much ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:42:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: on the survey question - how much ... >ref.: On the survey question - how much $$ would you - > [snip] > >We should support this kind of demo kit because of its !!evidence!! in showing >o/u ! The equipment with some meters of reasonable quality is of course a nice >feature for instant readings but the self-sutainability is what the device MUST >demonstrate. This should serve as the real proof of feasibilty of o/u otherwise >you always get involved in input/output calculations and evaluations. > >... and let us first have some dozens of the bulk kits and then think about a >mass production. > >kind regards, >------------------------------ >Wolfram Bahmann INE & P.A.C.E. board member > >Feyermuehler Str.12 D-53894 MECHERNICH Germany >fax: Int+49/ 2443-8221 e-mail: 100276.261 compuserve.com I agree with Wolfram that getting evidence distributed is very key. It seems like the objectives should be to do it quickly, cheaply, and legally. To do it quickly requires the cooperation of CETI. To do it cheaply requires a little research and engineering, something in which this group could have a wonderful role. To do it legally requires that it be done by license (requiring CETI, and maybe ENENCO, and others) or strictly on a non-profit and for research only basis. Mutual corporate and public interest goals might be served if research/education kits were distributed. Just as computer vendors are glad to get their wares in schools to build a future generation of customers, so CETI, etc., might be served by a non-profit effort. An indepedent unlicensed for-profit effort, on the other hand, is totally against the objectives of the patent process, and corporate well being. Also, to the extent additional research might result in a patent circumvention of the CETI patent, distributing research kits represents a negative to CETI. Further, even if deluged with megabucks investment capital, CETI people would probably still be very very busy with much bigger problems than educational/research kits. They have probably made a wise and maybe the only feasible decision to limit contacts for the time being. There are some difficult decisions ahead for all. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 13:33:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA14623 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA14600 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA04752; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:17:59 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:17:59 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: Vortex Discussion List Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reference to the proposed IRC conferencing; I've been looking into what we can do and how we can do it. I can't get my hands on that IRC AI that serves bible quotes, but I did get C code for other AIs, and I might be able to write one; dusting off C skills unused in years. I'd like to write an AI that can access the web, for instance, one that might be able to use the dictionary server, or the periodic table server, or access our web page for keyword searches through the archives list text. How is this possible, will I find the answers in 100 books at my Barnes and Noble? At first I'll experiment with serving access to that simple unix calculator, so that any channel user could type, for instance "Z, 2^45" and the AI, here named "Z", would deliver the answer immediately. Who has MAPLE for Unix? Having MAPLE accessible to a channel of tech people that are thinking together would be indispensable, but I haven't a copy. Particularly if it can somehow output the results of graphs to everyone on the channel. How can anybody be doing science these days without these tools? Are we the first ones really? Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 15:15:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA09835 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA09795 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA10671; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:02:01 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512172302.AA10671 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:02:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <199512160656.AAA21202 natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Dec 16, 95 00:56:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Scott Little wrote: > > with the forwarding, it's a little harder to figure out who sent the > message, but I think that Martin Sevior said: > > >Have you tried contacting one and getting a quote for > >some small scale Ni plating? Deiter's our reside electrochemist. Could any > >competent electroplating firm put 50 microns of Ni on a collection of > >1mm Pd coated beads? > > 1. The bead schematic drawing on Logajan's web page indicates that the > thicknesses are more like 1 micron....not 50. Has this changed? > I wrote that message. The 50 microns was a mistake on my part. As far as I know the beads have a 1 micron coating as shown on John Logajan's home page. I just spoke with Dennis Cravens. I will visit his lab during the period January 5th - 7th. He's no longer interested in the POWERGEN demo unit. His main focus will be on a high temperature, high pressure 30 watt unit to do before and after mass-spec. He will allow me to try to get the POWERGEN demo to work during my stay. It's currently sitting in boxes in his lab. If I can get it to work I will have my own system to play with for the time I'm there. I'll try my own Voltmeters and ammeters, thermisters and maybe even my own pump. I'll bring along some alkaline batteries and run the electrolysis current off them. If everything looks OK my final test will be to build a small tent around the device and measure the temperature rise in the tent with and without electrolysis current and compare it to a calibration device. A collection of 100 watt light bulbs. I stole this idea from the descriptions of tests of the Potatov device. Any further ideas for simple definitive tests would be appreciated. If I can't get the POWERGEN demo to work I'll spend my time looking at what Dennis is currently working on. After talking with Dennis I get the impression he doesn't like the POWERGEN demo. He was much more interested in the mass-spec measurements. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 15:38:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA15228 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA15200 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA21985; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:22:56 -0500 Date: 17 Dec 95 18:21:18 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits Message-ID: <951217232117_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To: Vortex I hate to rain on the parade here, but I have had extensive discussions with the people at CETI on the phone and at Power-Gen. They say they will not offer demo kits or sell to individual scientists. That is their firm policy. They do not want to see widespread interest in their technology at this stage. They deliberately made the display at Power-Gen low key, they made no effort to attract large numbers of conference attendees. Their purpose in going there was to hold pre-arranged meetings with a small group of large companies they have are already established relationships with. They want to limit the number of companies and universities with cells to no more than 6 or 8 for the next year or two, until prototype consumer products are developed and ready for production. I strongly disagree with that approach. I think it is symptomatic of the inventor's disease which has infected many people throughout history, causing them to keep things secret against their own best interests. Victims of this disease range from geniuses to fools. Technologies and discoveries delayed by it range from the sublime to the ridiculous. On the sublime side we have Newton who kept Principia in his drawer for 10 years (under the socks I suppose); Darwin, who did not publish for 20 years until he saw that someone else was about to beat him to it; and the Wrights, who freaked out and stopped public demonstrations 1905 and 1908 while they chased the will o' the wisp Grand Business Deals in Europe. The ridiculous side is well represented by Meyer and by companies like IBM and Xerox, which often invent wonderful technology and then refuse to sell it. Xerox is famous for its PARC research institute which invented a host of key technologies like the Apple / Windows architecture, and then did *nothing* with them. I should add that of these people, only Darwin gracious acknowledge the quality of his rival's work and admitted his rival's role in prompting him to act. In 1858 he wrote to Lyell, who had urged him to publish: "You words have come true with a vengeance -- that I should be forestalled. You said this, when I explained to you very briefly my views of 'Natural Selection' depending on the struggle for existence. I never saw a more striking coincidence; if Wallace had my MS sketch written out in 1844, he could not have made a better short abstract! Even his terms now stand as heads of my chapters. Certain commercial rivals may play a similar role, spurring CETI to come out more into the public limelight. I told CETI that I think their approach is a grave mistake that has been repeated by many people in the past. I have tried very hard to get them to change their minds about that, and open up their R&D process to more participants. I am still hoping to get them to change their minds. I working on various forms of quiet diplomacy (or behind-the-scenes machinations if you like) that might help open up the development process to a wider circle of people. These are delicate negotiations; I cannot discuss the details of what I am doing or who I am working with. I will say that it is discouraging. My best hope will either materialize or evaporate by this coming Friday I think. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 15:46:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA17812 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA17797 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA11853; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:34:14 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512172334.AA11853 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: on the survey question - how much ... To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:34:14 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <951217122314_100276.261_JHF45-4 CompuServe.COM> from "Wolfram Bahmann" at Dec 17, 95 07:23:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Denis Cravens told me that CETI will be making 30 watt cells available to "serious researchers". The time scale is 4 - 8 months. We might have these toys after all. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 16:14:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA24171 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA24160 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA17985; Sun, 17 Dec 95 19:00:23 EST Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 19:00:23 EST Message-Id: <9512180000.AA17985 clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sunday, Dec. 17, Jed sed: >I hate to rain on the parade here, but I have had extensive discussions with >the people at CETI on the phone and at Power-Gen. They say they will not offer >demo kits or sell to individual scientists. That is their firm policy. They do >not want to see widespread interest in their technology at this stage. They >deliberately made the display at Power-Gen low key, they made no effort to >attract large numbers of conference attendees. Their purpose in going there >was to hold pre-arranged meetings with a small group of large companies they >have are already established relationships with. They want to limit the number >of companies and universities with cells to no more than 6 or 8 for the next >year or two, until prototype consumer products are developed and ready for >production. > >I strongly disagree with that approach. I think it is symptomatic of the >inventor's disease which has infected many people throughout history, causing >them to keep things secret against their own best interests. Victims of this >disease range from geniuses to fools. I agree entirely Jed. Ask the guys at Ceti if they are familiar with Sony's Betamax marketing "strategy". They held their cards so close to their chest that everyone else in the game went over to the other table, where JVC was playing with anyone who wanted to come over to VHS. You recall what happened to Beta (Beta who?) I sense that something very big is happening, and Ceti and the Patterson technology might not be the only game in town for long. Remember the Takahashi thing that Chris has drwn to our attention. There's something interesting here that doesn't even involve any sort of water and electrolysis. I think Ceti should try to get as much momentum as possible. And in light of what Puthoff et al seem to be saying about inertia, perhaps momentum isn't even a guarantee anymore. I think a toy would be a great opener, and would capture the attention of the world. regards Gary From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 16:17:10 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA24603 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA24579 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA11950; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:02:13 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512180002.AA11950 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:02:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <951217232117_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Dec 17, 95 06:21:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Jed writes: > > I hate to rain on the parade here, but I have had extensive discussions with > the people at CETI on the phone and at Power-Gen. They say they will not offer > demo kits or sell to individual scientists. That is their firm policy. They do > not want to see widespread interest in their technology at this stage. They > deliberately made the display at Power-Gen low key, they made no effort to > attract large numbers of conference attendees. Their purpose in going there > was to hold pre-arranged meetings with a small group of large companies they > have are already established relationships with. They want to limit the number > of companies and universities with cells to no more than 6 or 8 for the next > year or two, until prototype consumer products are developed and ready for > production. [snip] > > I told CETI that I think their approach is a grave mistake that has been > repeated by many people in the past. I have tried very hard to get them to > change their minds about that, and open up their R&D process to more > participants. I am still hoping to get them to change their minds. I working > on various forms of quiet diplomacy (or behind-the-scenes machinations if you > like) that might help open up the development process to a wider circle of > people. These are delicate negotiations; I cannot discuss the details of what > I am doing or who I am working with. I will say that it is discouraging. My > best hope will either materialize or evaporate by this coming Friday I think. > Oh jeeze I hope I haven't screwed up in my previous message. I must have misunderstood Dennis. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 17:44:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA15308 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 17:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA15294 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 17:29:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.75 (eb1ppp11.shentel.net [204.111.1.75]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA00835 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:30:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199512180130.UAA00835 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 20:33:39 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Short Circuit To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To those of the Jewish faith...Happy Chanukah.....Shalom. May the light of Peace and Knowledge shine bright throughout the coming years. Za Mir From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 19:01:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA03405 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA03359 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA16322; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:33:28 -0500 Date: 17 Dec 95 21:30:47 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo Message-ID: <951218023046_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Martin Sevior accurately describes Dennis Cravens' attitude towards the Power- Gen demonstration unit: "I just spoke with Dennis Cravens. I will visit his lab during the period January 5th - 7th. He's no longer interested in the POWERGEN demo unit. . . . After talking with Dennis I get the impression he doesn't like the POWERGEN demo." Dennis told me that himself in no uncertain terms. He is sick of the thing. He never was interested in it. He does not want to build or show any more public demonstration units. He sees no point in building large, powerful units, which are more difficult to deal with than the handier 1 to 30 watt demonstration devices they have been making for the past two years. The next large cell he wants to build will be in a heat engine or other prototype commercial device. Dennis considers the Power-Gen cell an example of grandstanding. He does not think it serves any useful purpose. When I said it convinces many people CF is real, Dennis and people from CETI agreed, but they said that is not a useful purpose because they do not particularly want to convince lots of people CF is real. They only want to convince a few, select people. They do not plan to attend any more meetings or put on any more demonstrations. This demonstration was deliberately low key and somewhat unconvincing, except to people who looked carefully, as I did. However, as Nixon used to say, let me make one thing perfectly clear: Dennis has no doubts that the Power-Gen device did produce kilowatt level heat with only a watt input. I am certain of that too, and so are George Miley and others who observed the demonstration with me. George and I agree that it is a shame they did not use more precise instruments. The demonstration calorimeter was crude. It had no flowmeters, which made it a nuisance to work with. But it was every bit as good as the best scientific instruments in the year 1870. It is a nuisance, but not a serious problem. This instrument forces us to fall back on methods that worked perfectly well for the first few hundred years of experimental science. It makes you work hard and pay attention, which is a Good Thing. Galileo measured flow with a graduated cylinder and a crude clock. What worked for him will work for us. I am absolutely positive I can tell the difference between a flow rate of 1000 ml per minute and 0.2 ml per minute, which is what the flow rate would have to be when input was 0.1 watts and the flow Delta T indicated 450 watts. A whole bottle versus one drop . . . I can tell which is which every time, I need no flowmeter. There is no way the flow could have been slowing down and speeding up just at the moment I measured it. Pumps and tubes may be perverse, but they are not sentient. Along the same lines, someone complained to me about the Radio Shack analog voltmeter and the cell power supply, which is an el-Cheapo battery eliminator. It is a constant voltage transformer with a switch to pick one of five settings between 3 and 9 V. Those who say this kind of equipment is "too crude to do science with" should realize that in the year 1870 (or thereabouts) that transformer would be a miracle of precision engineering with its ultrapure copper and reliable contact switch. People like Faraday, Thompson, Telsa and Edison did magnificent science with instruments that were cruder, simpler and far more of a nuisance than the Power-Gen setup. I have often been to the Smithsonian where I looked closely at the instruments and notebooks left by Tycho de Brahe, Edison and others. They remind us that we have forgotten how to do science with the hand, the eye, hard work & no damn computer data recording. Chris Tinsley and I rail on about this, but we're right and people should listen. A computer will lull you into false sense of security! Unless there is no alternative and the measurement cannot be made without a computer, we feel that you should measure over and over again manually until you are sure of the results, and only then use the computer to collect a nice sample of data for publication. Don't be distracted by that pretty CRT screen. Turn it off and look at the water, the thermometer, the voltmeter, the tubes and valves instead. Look, touch, smell and THINK. Martin writes: "[Dennis] will allow me to try to get the POWERGEN demo to work during my stay. It's currently sitting in boxes in his lab." This will be a challenge. It is like setting up a recalcitrant HO scale model railroad, and keeping the trains from jumping off the track. Your main difficulty will be getting most air bubbles out of the hoses. You are likely to pour electrolyte over yourself. Be careful of the stuff. Don't drink it. (Seriously -- that much lithium could hurt you.) I recommend you disconnect the control cell, which is an unnecessary complication. You will have no time to observe the control cell in any case. I recommend you simply trust the inlet thermocouple. The inlet temperature is close to the reservoir temperature (in spite of the cooling fan), and you can confirm the reservoir temperature directly with the thermistor probe. (Take the top off and plop it in.) You can always assume inlet temperature equals reservoir temperature. That will drastically underestimate the Delta T (by 2 or 3 Deg C I think), but so what? Remember that any detectable Delta T temperature larger than 0.001 Deg C indicates excess. Whether it is 3, 6, or 17 Degrees hardly matters if this is to be considered a presence or absence test. You will never get a precise reading out of this equipment anyway. The cell is much too large for that. If you want a precise measurement of performance, you should keep it down at the 20 watt level. If you want a convincing demo from the point of view of physics, try and finagle the thing into the heat after death mode, with zero input, as seen on British TV this evening. (Wasn't it shown?) This kilowatt demonstration proves that the technology can be scaled up, but it does not prove anything else that smaller demonstrations cannot prove better. Me, I like the big hot demonstrations because they do make it easier to see and it is fun to warm your hands on the reservoir. It is impressive and emotionally satisfying, but the cell at U. Illinois has a higher S/N ratio I suppose. "I'll try my own Voltmeters and ammeters, thermistors and maybe even my own pump. I'll bring along some alkaline batteries and run the electrolysis current off them. If everything looks OK my final test will be to build a small tent around the device and measure the temperature rise in the tent with and without electrolysis current and compare it to a calibration device. A collection of 100 watt light bulbs." I do not even think you should bother with your own pump, because pumps are among the nastiest, least cooperative, most easily gummed up and most infuriating components in a flow calorimeter. When they work they are best left alone. Besides, pumps are not the major source of uncertainty and variation in flow rate: this is caused by obstructions, garbage in the filters, kinks in the tubes, and so on. I also see no need for elaborate tent calorimetry, and I do not think you will have time for it. Instead, I would recommend that you use the limited time available to take repeated measurements of the three parameters: electric power in, flow rate, and Delta T temperature. I was tempted to do one other form of rough and ready static calorimetry. It would be a cinch with the equipment in place already. All you have to do is turn off the cell, leave the pump running, and turn on the 50 watt auxiliary heater. Wait an hour so for the reservoir to come to a steady state terminal temperature. Then turn off the 50 watt heater and turn on the 100 watt aux heater and wait for it to reach a higher temperature. Then turn them both on for 150 watts input. This is not total input; the pump also contributes. I suppose you might start by running the pump alone for a few hours to find out how much of the 50 watts it consumes end up in the water. My guess is not much. The two aux heaters will give you three points for reservoir temperature which should be fairly linear, with a non-zero intercept because of heat from the pump. Since the lab is in a trailer in the mountains of New Mexico, I expect you will experience rapid and large changes in ambient air temperature and cold drafts of air, which will play hob with the accuracy of this method, but it should give a rough answer. Be sure to record ambient temperature. I have found that cold drafts of air tend to follow a person around the room, aiming themselves directly for the back of the neck, so you should pick a spot to stand in and *don't move*. Don't move the furniture either. It would be nice if you could measure the reservoir surface temperature with something like a pyrometer. When the cell is running, the reservoir fluid and surface temperature should be much higher than they are with 150 watts input from the aux heaters, although the curve will not be linear because much of the heat observed in the cell Delta T is lost by the time the fluid goes back through the tubes and splashes into the reservoir. Remember that the fluid loses much more heat coming back than it does going out from reservoir to inlet, because it is much hotter coming back and heat loss is exponential. Gene & I would appreciate it a great deal if you could get some of your observations on e-mail or faxed to me as quickly as possible after January 7 for inclusion in the next issue of Infinite Energy. Dennis does not have any e-mail connection, and he does not want to get one. But he does have a fax machine, so you can write up a brief description of what you observe, fax it to me at 770-458-2404, and I will post it here and in our magazine. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 20:23:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA25461 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA25444 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA27768; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:05:56 -0500 Date: 17 Dec 95 23:03:53 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: vtx: No misunderstanding, Martin got it right Message-ID: <951218040352_72240.1256_EHB89-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:msevior kosal0.triumf.ca Regarding CETI I wrote: "They want to limit the number of companies and universities with cells to no more than 6 or 8 for the next year or two, until prototype consumer products are developed and ready for production." And Martin reported that: "Dennis Cravens told me that CETI will be making 30 watt cells available to 'serious researchers'. The time scale is 4 - 8 months. We might have these toys after all." Yes, right, sorry. Dennis and the people at U. Illinois met to discuss the 30 watt cells for "serious researchers." I asked "how many cells?" and they said 8 or 10 total. They told me 8 to 12 months, perhaps they hope to speed up production. I got the impression that these would go to the same 6 or 8 institutions they are working with now, to replace the smaller, older models that produce only a few watts. Maybe I am wrong about that; maybe they will expand the number of groups to a total of 10 or 15. Or maybe they have not decided yet who they will give the new cells to. As I mentioned, I have been diplomatically (I hope diplomatically) trying to get them to modify their policy, speed up production, and distribute the cells more widely. I presume the distribution of cells will be strictly limited because the people at CETI told me they wanted to keep it that way. They said they want to keep the development process "under control" as much as possible, with a small number of carefully screened and selected strategic research partners. They want to be in change of the overall direction of the research. They want to coordinate it, and they want to have only a few limited partners so that they can devote lots of attention to helping and cooperating with each partner. If they had a hundred partners they could not keep up with what they are doing, and they would not have time to help partners who could not get the cells to work. They fear the R&D project would spin out of control. I believe they also want to charge a lot of money for each cell. I heard the figure $20,000 bandied about. Perhaps if Martin visits Dennis and makes a good impression, he might enter the vaunted ranks of carefully selected strictly screened strategic partners. He may have to sign a secrecy agreement in blood . . . As I said before, I think CETI's approach is a bad business strategy. Let me elaborate, as I plan to do in my upcoming article. With my background and experience, I would do things quite differently. I consider $20,000 grossly overpriced. I told CETI that if I was in their shoes, I would do everything possible to wind up demand, cause a frenzy of buying, and make events spin out of control. Nothing would please me more than to come into my office and find the e-mail, fax and phone lines jammed with thousands of orders. I would gather those orders up, run to the bank, and borrow a ton of money to manufacture the product. If I had a product like CETI's even in its present state, I would be flogging it and selling as many as I could manufacture. The purpose of a business is to make products and sell them to customers at a profit. Everything else is secondary. I feel there would be a strong, immediate demand for demonstration cells. To put it bluntly, my gut feeling is that I could sell thousands of them at the drop of a hat, at a very attractive profit. So if I was running CETI that is what I would do, double quick. I would have showed up at Power-Gen with 200 of the things sitting in cartons, and I would have handed them out to the first 200 people who expressed interest. I would say: "Try this gadget. If you don't like it, send it back to me in 90 days. You like it, you keep it, send me a hundred dollars. No obligation!" That sounds like the unsophisticated, old-fashioned businessman's patter you might have heard back in 1925. I doubt they teach people to say that Harvard Business School. I am an old fashioned, unsophisticated business man like my grandfather, and I try to keep things simple and direct. You make a widget, you sell it at a profit, and then you make another widget. When you want to convince people your widgets are best, you give widgets away to stir up demand (subject to the limitations of the antitrust laws). When something like a complicated business arrangement with a strategic research partner prevents you from advertising, making sales and taking profits, that arrangement is no good. It defeats the fundamental purpose of business. They regard intellectual property as the key to business success. They try hard to prevent premature exposure or reverse engineering. I look at things like sales, market share, employee skills, customer enthusiasm for the product, and the competition. We have different backgrounds: Patterson has had great success developing sophisticated patents, whereas I have never manufactured or sold anything protected by patents. The software business moves too fast for patents. We win by inventing faster and by satisfying customers. We never try to monopolize the intellectual rights to the manufacturing process, we just try to manufacture better and stay ahead on the learning curve. We cannot prevent the competition from reverse engineers the product, so we don't worry about that. Perhaps Patterson's approach is better for a product like a CF cathode. That is what I told CETI, and that is what I plan to say in the upcoming Infinite Energy article, where I talk about business strategies. However, let me add a strong caveat, both here and in the article. I am *NOT* running CETI. It is not my company and not my show. While I feel free to offer suggestions and publish my opinion of their business strategies, since they described in public at ICCF5 and Power-Gen, I cannot blame them if they choose to ignore my suggestions. It is their company. Reding and Patterson are running CETI, and they have done pretty well so far. Maybe they are right. There is no way to tell; you cannot perform an experiment to find out. They and I do not agree about many things, but we do agree about some important basics. I am pleased to see they are putting their efforts into quick commercial product development instead of fundamental scientific research. Our disagreements relate to timing, short term goals and emphasis, rather than long-term goals. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 21:12:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA08050 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA08032 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzupf20442; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA05640; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:54:48 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 821054200095351FEPRI; 17 Dec 1995 20:54:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 17 Dec 1995 20:54:20 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/17/95 20:54:09 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/17/95 07:30 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Scott: I've got an Aunt's funeral tomorrow and a few other things, I may not get to calling up Jim Patton at Precious Metal Plating in Hopkins MN til later in the week. But if you have directory assistance... You CAN use my name. Jim is conginial. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 21:15:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA08908 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA08880 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzupf20610; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA05669; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:57:48 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 374256200095351FEPRI; 17 Dec 1995 20:56:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 17 Dec 1995 20:56:20 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: the future of Vortex To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/17/95 20:56:41 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/16/95 19:28 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: the future of Vortex Bill, it will take me a while to get a check out. But I probably can support you. I have somewhat promised Peter G. a 14K modem, and I was going to wait til after Xmas to see how cheap I could get one. (Maybe some one can explain to Dear Peter what the nature of "on demand" marketing is, and assure him I'm not just blowing smoke!!!) MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 22:04:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA22281 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA22262 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tRYPH-0004w7C; Sun, 17 Dec 95 23:46 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:46:38 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <951218023046_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Dec 17, 95 09:30:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: > Dennis told me that himself in no uncertain terms. He is sick of the thing. He > never was interested in it. He does not want to build or show any more public > demonstration units. He sees no point in building large, powerful units, which > are more difficult to deal with than the handier 1 to 30 watt demonstration > devices they have been making for the past two years. When I spoke to Dennis early this spring, he was keen on building 100-1kW devices and downplayed smaller devices. So I think he has changed his approach. > to do science with the hand, the eye, hard work & no damn computer data > recording. Chris Tinsley and I rail on about this, but we're right and people > should listen. A computer will lull you into false sense of security! Some of us make more mistakes by hand than our computers do. So I will always opt for a computer to assist me. Just my preference, though. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 22:16:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA24745 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA24722 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tRYY4-0004w7C; Sun, 17 Dec 95 23:55 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: No misunderstanding, Martin got it right To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:55:44 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <951218040352_72240.1256_EHB89-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Dec 17, 95 11:03:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > They said they want to keep the > development process "under control" as much as possible, with a small number > of carefully screened and selected strategic research partners. They want to > be in charge of the overall direction of the research. They want to coordinate > it, and they want to have only a few limited partners so that they can devote > lots of attention to helping and cooperating with each partner. If they had a > hundred partners they could not keep up with what they are doing, and they > would not have time to help partners who could not get the cells to work. They > fear the R&D project would spin out of control. I think the lurking fear in inventions such as this is that some undiscovered key process is at work and they might not have characterized it in their patents (that is, it can be induced to occur in devices of substantially different construction.) So there is a motivation to buy time during which to conduct additional testing. Of course, you can never really protect yourself, you can never buy enough time. I agree, strike while the iron is hot, it may be your only chance to profit. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 23:20:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA09467 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA09456 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id XAA14017; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:00:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:00:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com cc: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits In-Reply-To: <951217232117_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 17 Dec 1995, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Their purpose in going there > was to hold pre-arranged meetings with a small group of large companies they > have are already established relationships with. A note from the paranoid fringe: if they're not going to let out their secrets, let's hope they can keep control of their secrets. For those who aren't familiar with the history of o/u inventions, the typical scenario involves the invention being sold outright to business interests, who then continue to keep it secret and either intentionally "suppress" it, or more probably just run into problems and develop it so slowly that it may as well have been suppressed. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 00:07:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA19424 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA19416 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA19461; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 02:47:17 -0500 Date: 18 Dec 95 02:46:10 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: on the survey question - how much ... Message-ID: <951218074609_100060.173_JHB80-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wolfram quoted the 1 watt challenge, >> but the self-sutainability is what the device MUST demonstrate. << I think this is the crux of the PR success of any lay public demo device. Instrumentation is for scientists, but a standard dry cell battery boiling a tube of water for 10 minutes is something else, and $200 would be about the right price for something like that IMO. I've just been watching the Equinox program on Ch 4 U.K. where they were quite kind to the various ou devices and gave a realistic appraisal of the state of the art. Cravens and Patterson came across very well, as surprisingly did Meyer, although he is still "just about to demonstrate" that dune buggy in a year's time!! Interestingly I saw no reference to P & F, but I have recorded the whole thing so will give it another viewing to check it out (when Pearl goes to the hairdresser!) Oh yes, they mentioned that Pattersons little balls were wrinkled to give maximum surface area - that explains a lot! Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 00:33:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA23938 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA23923 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA18378; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:13:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:13:08 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads In-Reply-To: <199512160656.AAA21202 natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: [...] > 2. Dieter, I am curious about the electroplating of Pd. A big reference > book I have on metal plating indicates that commercial Pd coatings are not > done with electroplating but rather evaporation or sputtering. Would you > expect Pd to be "difficult" to electroplate? No. You simply apply a cathodic potential in a solution of PdCl2, if I remember that correctly (I can check). The problem is more likely to be the fact that you are plating beads and want an even coating; also, you need a metal layer on the beads in the first place, of course. You might think I'm going on a bit about this, but I'd go for a fluidised bed to do this, to ensure the even plate - I imagine a packed bed would give you a solid mass of beads, locked together. The plating step itself would probably be the easiest... However, vacuum deposition, I reckon, might well be a bigger headache with beads. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 01:00:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA29477 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:41:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA29465 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA14989; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:42:29 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:42:28 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > > I have an electrochemist question that came up while emailing kids about > electricity experiments. > > In the "lasagna cell" effect, where the shorted battery formed by lasagna > in a steel pan eats holes in the aluminum foil, > > what might be the chemical reactions involved (assuming saline lasagna)? > > might the reaction products be poisonous? > > does the steel pan corrode also, or is only the aluminum attacked? [...] The steel and Al are clearly forming a battery, with steel acting as cathode and Al as anode, dissolving. At the steel end, the most likely reaction is oxygen evolution, harmless. I don't think any of the steel would dissolve. If it did, it wouldn't be quite harmless as it contains Ni and Cr. The toxicity of Al (in solution, as its salt) is a bit controversial. It used to be considered harmless (like tin), but there was a period where it was thought to be implicated in senile dementia - deposits of Al were found in parts of patient's brains. I think medicos have swung away from this theory again, but probably not all. I always lean to the safe side and say that if you are dissolving Al when cooking, don't eat it. Generally, any two dissimilar metals stuck into a solution containing salt will form a battery, with one metal (the less noble one) most often dissolving away. To do this, of course, there has to be an electrical connection between the metals, e.g. they touch each other somewhere. This is how a tin can works; the tin forms a plate on the steel with pores in the plate leaving the Fe exposed to some extent. The Sn dissolves, hydrogen evolves from the Fe patches, the Fe stays whole. Sn is said to be harmless. I don't like to drink pineapple juice, though, from a can that is largely detinned. I once worked on a problem of pinhole damage to cans of pears. It turned out that a pesticide residue reversed the Fe/Sn couple, making Sn the more noble, and so there was hydrogen evolved from the Sn and Fe dissolved at the tiny patches, eating pinholes into the cans. These cans were nice and shiny on the inside, but they were perforated. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 01:19:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA02713 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 01:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (root kremvax.demos.su [192.91.186.200]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA02647 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 01:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.12/D) from root localhost id MAA13701; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:00:05 +0300 Received: by madi.msk.su (dMail for DOS v1.23, 15Jun94); Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:15:27 +0300 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, kubotar@w.rd.honda.co.jp References: <199512121358.AA10379 power.gpu.com> Message-Id: Organization: Moscow Automobile-Road Institute Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:15:27 +0300 (MSK) From: "PHYSICS" X-Mailer: dMail [Demos Mail for DOS v1.23] Subject: Re: vtx: thank you for Lines: 46 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: kubotar w.rd.honda.co.jp To:Ryuichi Kubota From:physics madi.msk.su,professor Lev G.Sapogin Subject: some remarks about UNESCO Dear Ryuichi 1. I am very surprised by the answer from UNESCO in Paris. Through some hours I send by a fax from the journal Buisness-Match of a copy of some documents on the occassion International Center of Education System. Among them the answer from Paris in occassion of registration of this organization and copy of the certificate about registration of this establishment in Russia. I understand, that this nothing means as in Russia criminal at a authority. This organization can in general not exist and is organized as umbrella for frauds. In Russia such or- ganizations exist on each step. We all this should find out. But I not surprised if in UNESCO such the disorder as well as in Russia. If this organization does not exist, we shall all organaize through Busi- ness-Match. 2. I do not want to enter scientific contacts to the professor Vars- havsky as I have no problem in scientific task and I was the member of scientific advice (council) when he protected the doctor's dissertati- on in 1978. More detailed opinion on this group and its problems in Japan only at personal meet. 3. For me group thermophysics from St.Petersburg is well known. They work in Leningrad Institute of Precise Mechanics and optics. This are the professor Y.Zarichnyak and G.Dulnev. It is possible to organize our meeting in St. Peterburg after your arrival. But I do not think, that we should assign large hopes on thermionic converters. They have small efficiency on basic reasons and the future converters will be on other principles. 4. Potapov had received the prestigious american premium, name of which " Fire of Birminghan ". I can organize to you trip in Moldavia to Potapov. But Moldavia this other state, and then it can be seen in Moscow and I to you to go did not there advise. Potapov sells these installations very widely. They are manufactured 4 factories in Molda- via. Potapov asserts (approves), that their efficiency more than 300-400 %. But I do not believe in these results and think, that effi- ciency not more than 110-130 %. The high efficiency play a role of ad- vertising. Yours faithfully Lev 18 December 1995 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 07:28:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA29577 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA29540 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuqu00203; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16086; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:07:58 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 980307070095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 07:07:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 07:07:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 07:07:03 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 01:00 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question Re: Aluminum dissolution.... VERY DIFFICULT! Aluminum has one of the most electrochemically "tight" oxides in the known universe. When totally tied up as the oxide it is known as Bauxite. Check the reference books and you will find out that Aluminum is processed out of the ore purely by electrochemical means. This is because it would take a 7000K temperature to initiate a "reduction" of Aluminum by thermal means. - EVEN SO, the chemistry/currents involved in this electro-chemical reduction are fairly severe. Thus I'd wager that any OTHER material which could be reduced would go first to pure metalic form and be then water solvated. - HOWEVER, if the electro couple is in the opposite direction, then the Al could be further oxidized. Would form a fine, AlO3 powder. NOT really an ingestion hazzard, as our biochemistry cannot reduce that. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 08:12:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA10134 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10047 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA16256 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:10:08 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 06:52:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >I just spoke with Dennis Cravens. I will visit his lab during the period >January 5th - 7th. [snip] >Any further ideas >for simple definitive tests would be appreciated. > [snip] >Martin Sevior Some possibly impractical suggestions: 1. Obtain a small sample of used electrolyte for chemical analysis. Someone with a decent lab might offer to work it over pretty well. 2. Once a cell is validated as producing the effect, change the anode out for nickel or nichrome or something else cheap but not prone to corrosion. Maybe leave the original anode in place but try a wire inserted into the electrolyte prior to the cell. 3. Look for transient voltages with an oscilloscope. Try putting one probe into the electrolyte or at the anode, the other at the cathode. The same at the thermocouple contacts. 4. Maybe Dennis Cravens will give you a bead sample to work with at home? 5. Attach a contact micropone. Look for sound production. Try with pump on and off. 6. If you have a way, look for hot spots in the cell. Try operation at different orientations, e.g. upside down. Is heat produced at the anode as well? 7. If you have a strong magnet available check effect on a working cell. If there is any it should show up immediately. 8. Run without blank cell in circuit. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 08:27:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13664 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13645 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p6.aa.net (s3c2p6.aa.net [204.157.220.154]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA23618 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:02:30 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512181602.IAA23618 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:01:46 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >As far as ISPs, for now eskimo.com has bargain-basement prices with full >shell access and a friendly user community full of internet experimenters >who know this system. I tried Netcom last year, and I can't recommend >them (for remote access, I'd rather give money to the phone company than >to Netcom!) I don't know anyone at the U. of Washington, but there's a >small chance that cheaper space could be found locally at the "U-dub." > >Webcam stuff can be done with almost nothing but volunteer labor. The >Connectix B/W camera is $100 and eliminates the need for a framegrabber >card, and CuSeeMe live video software is freeware at present (but being >picked up by White Pine Inc.) I've tried to run this at work, but haven't >had the time to figure a way past the barrier of Novell TCP/IP weirdness >on our inhouse system. And at present, the audio channel requires a >Macintosh and a 28K link or better on a low-traffic system. Ah, if only >the infamous Griggs Trip had been equipped with a laptop, cellphone, CCD >camera, and a big crowd of voices yelling realtime instructions over >"NetPhone!" > >Scary thought: s.p.f. rents someone as a warm body, then wanders the world >as an internet-linked, contribution-driven, groupmind-controlled "Borg", >dropping in on unsuspecting CF workers! Scarier thought: Vortex-L could >go meet Potapov in this form... > yeah well, it is a coming!!! we oughta equip ourselves and then drop in on one of Mike Wallace's Turkey shoots and give the big media a real spin! and to hell with black and white. make it COLOR. >Anyyyway... > >Nonprofits: I'm currently on the board of one involved in science >education. It's very possible that I could get permission to put some >part of vortex-L under their umbrella, which would provide above-board >financial organization and clear the way for possible corporate >contributions. They're small though, and couldn't contribute much besides >their umbrella. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > what I was thinking about Bill, was that with non-profit status we could possibly arrange to get a temporary account at a local city isp or college/university for free where an inventor or demo is at at and then use the temp local dialup account to relay through the net to the vortex/eskimo crowd. that what give our "bot" plug in capability in a lot of places. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 08:28:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13910 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13880 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p6.aa.net (s3c2p6.aa.net [204.157.220.154]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA23650 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:03:31 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512181603.IAA23650 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:02:47 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >--- FORWARDED --- >Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:31:21 -0900 >From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) >Subject: Re: vtx: A home for Vortex-L > >>Vortcore-L will be up soon, when the eskimo sysop creates some majordomo >>files. >> >[snip] >> >>Anyone want to help financially? >[snip] > >You can count on my $10. > > >Regards, > PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 >Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 > > > same ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 08:44:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA17773 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA17703 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuqz09709; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13735; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:11:59 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 622511080095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 08:11:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 08:11:08 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Martin's trip to NM... To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 08:11:21 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Martin's trip to NM... - Martin: Gene Mallove has a beautiful "thermcouple ready" 3 channel Eberline Angus chart recorder of mine. Maybe we can ask him to send it to CloudCroft NM to be there by the time you are. Not a computer data gathering device, but so elegant and easy to use I think it would be useful. - I don't know what sort of crazyness is in Dennis Craven's head. I would think that running this KW device for a week, or a month would be HIGHEST PRIORTY. It would do several things: First of all, it would establish the CF reaction beyond all doubt. Secondly, it would provide the basis for economic scale up for home heating. (I'd say that establishing that the beads could last a "heating season" or about 6 to 7 months would be important.) If they are "cheap enough" they could be changed out every year. Let's say if you could do that for about $200 to $300 it would be viable.) - I like some of the comments about watching the ambient. Not that that should totally trip you up, but I think it could be a nuisance. - Keep us informed! PS, be aware that Dennis has a tendancy to "hover" while you are trying to do things. Some valium or demoral might help. (Not for him, for yourself!) - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 08:59:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA21303 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21276 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p6.aa.net (s3c2p6.aa.net [204.157.220.154]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA24650 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:29:32 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512181629.IAA24650 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:28:47 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex > >I hate to rain on the parade here, but I have had extensive discussions with >the people at CETI on the phone and at Power-Gen. They say they will not offer >demo kits or sell to individual scientists. That is their firm policy. They do >not want to see widespread interest in their technology at this stage. They >deliberately made the display at Power-Gen low key, they made no effort to >attract large numbers of conference attendees. Their purpose in going there >was to hold pre-arranged meetings with a small group of large companies they >have are already established relationships with. They want to limit the number >of companies and universities with cells to no more than 6 or 8 for the next >year or two, until prototype consumer products are developed and ready for >production. > >I strongly disagree with that approach. I think it is symptomatic of the >inventor's disease which has infected many people throughout history, causing >them to keep things secret against their own best interests. Victims of this >disease range from geniuses to fools. Technologies and discoveries delayed >by it range from the sublime to the ridiculous. On the sublime side we have >Newton who kept Principia in his drawer for 10 years (under the socks I >suppose); Darwin, who did not publish for 20 years until he saw that someone >else was about to beat him to it; and the Wrights, who freaked out and stopped >public demonstrations 1905 and 1908 while they chased the will o' the wisp >Grand Business Deals in Europe. The ridiculous side is well represented by >Meyer and by companies like IBM and Xerox, which often invent wonderful >technology and then refuse to sell it. Xerox is famous for its PARC research >institute which invented a host of key technologies like the Apple / Windows >architecture, and then did *nothing* with them. ,,,, >I told CETI that I think their approach is a grave mistake that has been >repeated by many people in the past. I have tried very hard to get them to >change their minds about that, and open up their R&D process to more >participants. I am still hoping to get them to change their minds. I working >on various forms of quiet diplomacy (or behind-the-scenes machinations if you >like) that might help open up the development process to a wider circle of >people. These are delicate negotiations; I cannot discuss the details of what >I am doing or who I am working with. I will say that it is discouraging. My >best hope will either materialize or evaporate by this coming Friday I think. > >- Jed > For whatever it is worth, I agree wholeheartedly with you Jed and you you have my empathetic hope that you will perservere. My feeling is that it takes a wrong direction about 3 to 6 months on the average to prove itself faulty. It may happen more raidly with this because of the internet connectivity. The world is not going to wait for long...things will just start to happen. The only way you can stay in the lead of the wave is to surf the wave. Trying to hold the wave is...well... ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 09:54:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA08136 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA08038 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:24:17 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA16277 for vortex-l eskimo.com; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:20:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:20:45 -0500 Message-ID: <951218122043_75288043 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, Please keep up the good efforts to get CETI to cooperate with others (like us, for instance). Otherwise, we will all go off and do our own thing with our present understanding of their technology, and in the long run that may hurt their present hard-won position. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 15:24:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA07715 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07462 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzurp19576; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10216; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:23:07 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 082022120095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 12:22:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 12:22:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 12:22:19 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 09:54 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: CETI will not offer demo kits Hal, you have really said a lot in a paragraph....YES, beware the "thinking we (you, anyone) know the recipiet type thinking. If we don't know that you need to put in a "pinch of salt" after 3 hours of boiling, we can try mixing the ingredients a million times, and it won't work..... MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 15:30:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA28521 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA28379 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzurt19719; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09168; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:21:07 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 641520130095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 13:20:13 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 13:20:13 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 13:20:14 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/17/95 19:00 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo Martin: Send me an Email at MHUGO EPRI.EPRI.COM or CLDFUSION@AOL.COM. Then I'll send you some personal comments about your visit to Dennis' domain. - Suffice it to say I think this is a dynamite opportunity. Have you considered how long you want to see it run at 500 or 1000 watts out to figure you have something significant? Can I offer one other thought? There are things called "cup heaters" available in the US. Take 200 watts and will heat a cup of water (about 250ml) up to boiling (100 degrees C) in about 7 minutes. I think it would be worthwhile to buy 5 of these (about $50) and mount them in a flow stream/closed volume. Then put thermal probing inlet and outlet and pump through 1200 ml/minute. Should be a good "baseline" to work with. - I personally think that 30 hours at about 500 watts will pretty much "cinch" it as not being chemical. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 16:22:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA07143 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA07026 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA13706; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:44:01 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512182344.AA13706 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:44:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <951218023046_72240.1256_EHB50-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Dec 17, 95 09:30:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed writes: > To: Vortex > > However, as Nixon used to say, let me make one thing perfectly clear: Dennis > has no doubts that the Power-Gen device did produce kilowatt level heat with > only a watt input. I am certain of that too, and so are George Miley and > others who observed the demonstration with me. George and I agree that it is a > shame they did not use more precise instruments. The demonstration calorimeter > was crude. It had no flowmeters, which made it a nuisance to work with. But it > was every bit as good as the best scientific instruments in the year 1870. It > is a nuisance, but not a serious problem. This instrument forces us to fall > back on methods that worked perfectly well for the first few hundred years of > experimental science. It makes you work hard and pay attention, which is a > Good Thing. Galileo measured flow with a graduated cylinder and a crude clock. > What worked for him will work for us. I am absolutely positive I can tell the > difference between a flow rate of 1000 ml per minute and 0.2 ml per minute, > which is what the flow rate would have to be when input was 0.1 watts and the > flow Delta T indicated 450 watts. A whole bottle versus one drop . . . I can > tell which is which every time, I need no flowmeter. There is no way the flow > could have been slowing down and speeding up just at the moment I measured it. > Pumps and tubes may be perverse, but they are not sentient. > > Along the same lines, someone complained to me about the Radio Shack analog > voltmeter and the cell power supply, which is an el-Cheapo battery eliminator. > It is a constant voltage transformer with a switch to pick one of five > settings between 3 and 9 V. Those who say this kind of equipment is "too crude > to do science with" should realize that in the year 1870 (or thereabouts) that > transformer would be a miracle of precision engineering with its ultrapure > copper and reliable contact switch. People like Faraday, Thompson, Telsa and > Edison did magnificent science with instruments that were cruder, simpler and > far more of a nuisance than the Power-Gen setup. I have often been to the > Smithsonian where I looked closely at the instruments and notebooks left by > Tycho de Brahe, Edison and others. They remind us that we have forgotten how > to do science with the hand, the eye, hard work & no damn computer data > recording. Chris Tinsley and I rail on about this, but we're right and people > should listen. A computer will lull you into false sense of security! Unless > there is no alternative and the measurement cannot be made without a computer, > we feel that you should measure over and over again manually until you are > sure of the results, and only then use the computer to collect a nice sample > of data for publication. Don't be distracted by that pretty CRT screen. Turn > it off and look at the water, the thermometer, the voltmeter, the tubes and > valves instead. Look, touch, smell and THINK. > If I can't tell the difference between 1 and 1 kilowatt I don't deserve to be an experimental physicist. Although Dennis wants it to be run at 200 watts output, why I don't know at this stage. I hope to find out on my trip. I also like the idea of getting to play with a very simple device. There's more scope for changes and in a situation where we have energy appearing apperently out of nowhere, the more reality checks the better. Frankly if I find excess power production the readings of the mercury thermometers will carry more weight than the thermocouple or thermister readings. I use computer data acquistion systems all the time in my Professional capacity but in a case like this I definately don't want to rely on one. On the same note, is it worth a blister to advance the state of Science? First hand(!) evidence of elevated temperatures? > > Martin writes: > > "[Dennis] will allow me to try to get the POWERGEN demo to work during > my stay. It's currently sitting in boxes in his lab." > > This will be a challenge. It is like setting up a recalcitrant HO scale model > railroad, and keeping the trains from jumping off the track. Your main > difficulty will be getting most air bubbles out of the hoses. You are likely > to pour electrolyte over yourself. Be careful of the stuff. Don't drink it. > (Seriously -- that much lithium could hurt you.) I recommend you disconnect > the control cell, which is an unnecessary complication. You will have no time > to observe the control cell in any case. I recommend you simply trust the > inlet thermocouple. The inlet temperature is close to the reservoir > temperature (in spite of the cooling fan), and you can confirm the reservoir > temperature directly with the thermistor probe. (Take the top off and plop it > in.) You can always assume inlet temperature equals reservoir temperature. > That will drastically underestimate the Delta T (by 2 or 3 Deg C I think), but > so what? Remember that any detectable Delta T temperature larger than 0.001 > Deg C indicates excess. Whether it is 3, 6, or 17 Degrees hardly matters if > this is to be considered a presence or absence test. You will never get a > precise reading out of this equipment anyway. The cell is much too large for > that. If you want a precise measurement of performance, you should keep it > down at the 20 watt level. If you want a convincing demo from the point of > view of physics, try and finagle the thing into the heat after death mode, > with zero input, as seen on British TV this evening. (Wasn't it shown?) This > kilowatt demonstration proves that the technology can be scaled up, but it > does not prove anything else that smaller demonstrations cannot prove better. > If Dennis will let me I want to run at the lowest flow rate and the biggest delta-T. I want to get that water up above 50 C. I want to get the biggest signal to noise possible. > > > "I'll try my own Voltmeters and ammeters, thermistors and maybe even my > own pump. I'll bring along some alkaline batteries and run the > electrolysis current off them. If everything looks OK my final test will > be to build a small tent around the device and measure the temperature > rise in the tent with and without electrolysis current and compare it to > a calibration device. A collection of 100 watt light bulbs." > > I do not even think you should bother with your own pump, because pumps are > among the nastiest, least cooperative, most easily gummed up and most > infuriating components in a flow calorimeter. When they work they are best > left alone. Besides, pumps are not the major source of uncertainty and > variation in flow rate: this is caused by obstructions, garbage in the > filters, kinks in the tubes, and so on. > Yeah I'm inclined to forget about my own pump too. Particularly if I get the tent to work. > >I also see no need for elaborate tent > calorimetry, and I do not think you will have time for it. > If I can get the tent to work I think that would be a very convincing demonstration. The volume of the tent will be quite small about 3 feet high, 2 feet wide and 4 feet long. In addition I will make it from Aluminized mylar and either bubble packing or foam to get good insulation. I expect a rapid temperature rise from even a small heat source. Despite all my postings I still worry about a prosaic heat pump effect. If I can confine all the energy release to a volume and run at 200 watts output or more all talk of heat pumps is moot. > Instead, I would > recommend that you use the limited time available to take repeated > measurements of the three parameters: electric power in, flow rate, and Delta > T temperature. I was tempted to do one other form of rough and ready static > calorimetry. It would be a cinch with the equipment in place already. All you > have to do is turn off the cell, leave the pump running, and turn on the 50 > watt auxiliary heater. Wait an hour so for the reservoir to come to a steady > state terminal temperature. Then turn off the 50 watt heater and turn on the > 100 watt aux heater and wait for it to reach a higher temperature. Then turn > them both on for 150 watts input. This is not total input; the pump also > contributes. I suppose you might start by running the pump alone for a few > hours to find out how much of the 50 watts it consumes end up in the water. My > guess is not much. The two aux heaters will give you three points for > reservoir temperature which should be fairly linear, with a non-zero intercept > because of heat from the pump. Since the lab is in a trailer in the mountains > of New Mexico, I expect you will experience rapid and large changes in ambient > air temperature and cold drafts of air, which will play hob with the accuracy > of this method, but it should give a rough answer. Be sure to record ambient > temperature. I have found that cold drafts of air tend to follow a person > around the room, aiming themselves directly for the back of the neck, so you > should pick a spot to stand in and *don't move*. Don't move the furniture > either. > > It would be nice if you could measure the reservoir surface temperature with > something like a pyrometer. When the cell is running, the reservoir fluid and > surface temperature should be much higher than they are with 150 watts input > from the aux heaters, although the curve will not be linear because much of > the heat observed in the cell Delta T is lost by the time the fluid goes back > through the tubes and splashes into the reservoir. Remember that the fluid > loses much more heat coming back than it does going out from reservoir to > inlet, because it is much hotter coming back and heat loss is exponential. > > Thanks for all these tips Jed. I shall make a "cheat sheet" of things to look out for. I would like to measure the temperature of the plastic tubing too. I'm thinking of attaching a termistor probe the tube and wrapping it with thermal insulation. > Gene & I would appreciate it a great deal if you could get some of your > observations on e-mail or faxed to me as quickly as possible after January 7 > for inclusion in the next issue of Infinite Energy. Dennis does not have any > e-mail connection, and he does not want to get one. But he does have a fax > machine, so you can write up a brief description of what you observe, fax it > to me at 770-458-2404, and I will post it here and in our magazine. > > - Jed > Well Jed I can't promise that sort of rapid response. Maybe if everything is cut and dried I can say something. For example if I get POWERGEN up and running, all my measurements agree with the instrumentation and the tent test corroborates it all. Otherwise I will want time to think everything through and write it up nicely. Frank Close is not going to give up his morgage on the basis of any report I make and Frank is widely respected as an excellent theoretical Physicist in my exact field of research. That respect is deserved. I will antagonize a lot of my collegues if I report excess heat without careful consideration. On the other hand if I find no excess I want to be sure about that too and if at all possible, why so many people have found excess in the device. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 16:22:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA07477 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA07458 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA13721; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:46:56 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512182346.AA13721 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:46:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: from "Horace Heffner" at Dec 18, 95 06:52:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > > Some possibly impractical suggestions: > > 1. Obtain a small sample of used electrolyte for chemical analysis. > Someone with a decent lab might offer to work it over pretty well. > > This is a good idea and is easy to implement. I'll take a sample back with me. Does anyone have a contact that will do a thorough chemical analysis? I don't think Dennis will let me get away with any beads but I'll try. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 16:32:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA08922 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA08915 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA13737; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:57:03 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512182357.AA13737 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: vtx: Visit to NM. To: mhugo epri.epri.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:57:03 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Mark, for some reason I'm not sure about Dennis only wants to run the demo at 200 watts output. I don't think there's much chance I can conclusively demonstrate "heat beyond chemistry" in my time there. First I've got to get the demo running myself. Then I want to find out if the heat is coming exclusively from the cell and not from some strange convoluted process. That's why the tent test is high on my priority. My email address is msevior triumf.ca. Any comments that people don't want to share with anyone else or would be lengthy for the list server can be sent there. Any confidential comments went kept that way. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 19:59:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA08809 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA08790 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.73] ([204.57.193.73]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18225 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:03:47 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Horace Heffner writes: > >> >> Some possibly impractical suggestions: >> >> 1. Obtain a small sample of used electrolyte for chemical analysis. >> Someone with a decent lab might offer to work it over pretty well. >> >> > >This is a good idea and is easy to implement. I'll take a sample back with >me. Does anyone have a contact that will do a thorough chemical analysis? > >I don't think Dennis will let me get away with any beads but I'll try. > >Martin Sevior I don't know about the nature of the labs, but Jones or an associate at BYU might be a good idea, or maybe Dick Blue at UofM? You might get the most interresting results and most thorough midnight oil burning type work out of the skeptics camp. I doubt if Rockwell labs would be willing to have another go at He analysis. Of course a gas sample might be better for that anyway. Maybe a post on S.P.F. is an idea? Might want to do that *after* you get a smaple though! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 21:03:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA17753 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tia1.eskimo.com (billb tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA17718; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by tia1.eskimo.com (8.7.3) id UAA07149; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:43:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:43:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: William Beaty , keelynet@ix.netcom.com Subject: vtx: Bearden! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those interested in 'o/u' devices, check out the illustrated "Chasing the Dragon" article by T. Bearden in the Virtual Times. See the "Weird Science of the Week" link on my WEIRD SCIENCE page. Netscape (etc.) is nearly a requirement, since the photos and illustrations must not be missed! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 21:03:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA17889 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA17873 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzusw24713; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14863; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:44:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 352943200095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 20:43:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 20:43:20 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Visit to NM. To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 20:43:28 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 16:32 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Visit to NM. Martin: Two things, #1 the reason that Dennis doesn't want you to run much beyond 200 watts is because he has a "gut feel" for when you start getting mechanical damage to the plating. I think the real number is probably closer to 500 watts, but again---that is an educated guess. #2. If you can run 200 watts for 20 hours, that would be 20 * 200 *3.41 = 13,000 BTU (I'm a 40 year old fuddy duddy engineer). 22,000 BTU per pound of gasoline. Since there is really only about 80 grams of material in the system (cell) that gives you about 80/453 * 22,000 or about 4,000 BTU chemical, MAX. And guess what?! I don't have to engage in esoteric arguments. I'm a ramblin wreck, from Minnesoooota Tech, and a HELL of an engineer. I'm right, and I know it! (But you are welcome to take a sample of the homogenized electro- lyte and verify that it is 1 molar LiSO4, and hasn't significantly changed concentration.) So, you get to observe this puppy for that long, and I think you'll have it nailed as "non-chemical". - Good luck, should you or any of your friends/relatives/neighbors be pestered to death when trying to work with Dennis C., DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU! - MDH:) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 21:03:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA18235 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA18223 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzusx24841; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20269; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:46:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 854544200095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 20:44:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 20:44:20 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 20:44:45 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 16:22 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Martin: If you send me a 20 ml sample or so, I might get an AA analysis done on it at my company's lab. But then I think at best we'd get the sulfate and Li content, not much else. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 21:05:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA18588 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA18514 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzusx24933; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20283; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:48:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 715846200095352FEPRI; 18 Dec 1995 20:46:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Dec 1995 20:46:20 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/18/95 20:46:57 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 16:22 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Cravens' attitude towards Power-Gen demo Martin, this is a good concept, but I think you should keep in mind the empirical evidence that too much Qdot without enough removal could cause inordinate thermal stresses on beads whose plating and design might not be exactly optimized. I think that 17 degrees C, or 30 degrees F. should be a strong enough signal to noise ratio. Do that cup heater trick I mentioned earlier, that should help. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 22:52:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA05809 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA05783 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-175.austin.eden.com (net-1-175.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.175]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA04782 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:36:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:36:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512190636.AAA04782 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Plating beads with Pd X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter said: >You simply apply a cathodic potential in a solution of PdCl2 >I'm going on a bit about this, but I'd go for a fluidised bed to do this, >to ensure the even plate I'm not an expert in this area but it sure seems to me that the fluidized bed would plate NOTHING onto the beads because they are not in contact with anything except for fleeting instants when they strike another bead or an electrode. A bead "floating" free in an electrolyte would not get plated, right? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 22:53:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA05803 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA05780 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-175.austin.eden.com (net-1-175.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.175]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA04777 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:36:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:36:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512190636.AAA04777 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: our cell's first run X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, we got out CETI cell approximation (as opposed to "replication") running today and achieved a null result. We're using 1 molar Li2SO4+H2O electrolyte (i.e. 128 grams of that salt in 1 liter of distilled water). Our cell has Pt lead-in wires and Pt screens to contact the beads. We're using SS304 jacketed thermocouple temperature probes but each one is totally isolated electrically, connecting only to a battery-powered meter (hence we don't think there'll be any adverse electrolytic reaction with them). We have a DC motor-driven plastic gear pump that can deliver any flow from about 2 ml/sec up to at least 50 ml/sec. At low flows, it only consumes 2 or 3 watts. We used Pd-coated alumina beads for the first run. These are standard catalyst beads and are simply a "shot in the dark"...taken because we do not have "real" beads. One discouraging fact about these beads is that the Pd coating does not conduct electricity significantly. This was determined by probing a bead with ohmmeter leads. We learned that catalyst users are not concerned with electrical conductivity but rather surface area. These beads are reported to be covered with tiny "crystallites" of Pd...which apparently are not touching each other. Despite the insulating properties of our beads, we observed good electrical conductivity in our cell. We achieved a current of .2 amps with about 7 volts, a bit lower effective cell resistance than the PowerGen demo cell. We ran the cell at this level of electrolysis power and a flow rate of 5 ml/sec for several hours and observed no detectable delta-T (we have 0.1 degree resolution on our temperature probes which, at 5 ml/sec, translates to about 2 watt resolution on output power). We then arranged a heater for the electrolyte and raised its temperature to around 45 degrees C. We reduced the flow rate to 2 ml/sec and ran for several more hours. At 2 ml/sec the resolution is about 1 watt and we could just barely see the input power showing up as a 0.1 degree delta-T. Next we will try a bed of pure Ni spheres ranging in size from .3mm to .8mm. If Ni is the active element in the latest CETI cells, perhaps pure Ni will work to some degree. Any suggestions? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 23:56:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA13114 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13107 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA26904; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:31:00 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:31:00 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 18 Dec 1995, MHUGO EPRI wrote: > Re: Aluminum dissolution.... VERY DIFFICULT! Aluminum has one of the > most electrochemically "tight" oxides in the known universe. When totally [...] > EVEN SO, the chemistry/currents involved in this electro-chemical reduction > are fairly severe. Thus I'd wager that any OTHER material which could be > reduced would go first to pure metalic form and be then water solvated. You mean oxidised, no? > HOWEVER, if the electro couple is in the opposite direction, then the Al > could be further oxidized. Would form a fine, AlO3 powder. NOT really an > ingestion hazzard, as our biochemistry cannot reduce that. The reports said that the Al had holes dissolved in it, so it dissolved. When it does that, it goes off as hydrated Al+++ ions and oxide passivation has little to do with it. Sure, we sometimes ingest Al voluntarily as antacids (I don't, having the proverbial cast-iron stomach) but I'd tend to err on the safe side and avoid it if possible. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 00:14:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA15912 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA15903 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA29829; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:02:08 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:02:08 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Horace Heffner wrote: > 1. Obtain a small sample of used electrolyte for chemical analysis. > Someone with a decent lab might offer to work it over pretty well. Let me make a prediction of what an analysis will find: the original LiSO4, which would not react; some dissolved Ni, a tiny amount of dissolved Cu. All totally unexciting. Chemistry will not explain the claims, no matter what exotic chemicals they might have stuck into the cell. By all means look for transient currents or voltages but my bet is you won't find any. This one has been discussed at length in connection with F&P's results, and Holst-Hansen and Britz (1995) showed that fluctuations cannot explain a thing. You'd need massive fluctuations on both current and voltage to add significantly to the power. If it were me, I'd check the average levels of cell current and voltage, and flow rate, while "excess" power is being produced. Also, how much gas is in the electrolyte as it exits from the cell? I am not saying - nor do I believe - that gas bubble content can give rise to 1300 W by increasing flow rate or decreasing heat capacity, but the effect ought to be looked at and accounted for. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 00:58:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA19177 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA19149 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA18930 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 01:53:29 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:35:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >Next we will try a bed of pure Ni spheres ranging in size >from .3mm to .8mm. If Ni is the active element in the >latest CETI cells, perhaps pure Ni will work to some degree. > >Any suggestions? How about a coil of ni-cad or Ni wire for an anode? Might be best if acid etched or sand blasted, or rubbed with garnet paper to rough it up. If it worked it would permit study of the effect of current *through* the cathode only vs current through the cathode and electrolyte. By placing increasingly high frequency current in the electrode, independent of electrolyte current, the current would be driven to the surface, thus isolating surface effects and gaining a high current density. Also, wire might be easier to plate with Cu-Ni-Pd-NI. A woven matt of wire might simulate bead contact points. It seems like lots of exposed Pt in the cathode just diverts current non productively through the electrolyte. You could try stimulating the electrode with xrays, beta emitters, or other source of high energy (over 1.5KeV) stimulation. Possibly dissolve Am from a smoke detector and use in Pd or Ni plating solution to spike the electrode (beads or wire) surface. If you have a strong magnet, that might help create an ignition condition if placed adjacent to the cell. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 01:15:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA21191 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA21168 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:59:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA23300; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 03:58:02 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 03:56:12 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: our cell's first run Message-ID: <951219085611_100060.173_JHB113-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >> If Ni is the active element in the latest CETI cells, perhaps pure Ni will work to some degree. Any suggestions? << I'm still trying to work out why all the successful cells use plastic beads. Or am I out of date here? Could it be something to do with current density at the contact areas of the beads? The area of contact would be much greater with soft beads, so that more of the current would flow through the surface plating than with hard beads. Might be an idea to test the resistance of a cell full of Pd plated Alumina beads against the same number of plastic ones of the same size, with and without electrolyte. Can't think of anything else! Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 02:19:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA25143 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA25133 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 02:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.32]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA15623 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:03:26 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512191003.VAA15623 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:07:27 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: How much $$ would you Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 15 Dec 95 at 4:45, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip] > But look, Norman - this is producing power through some unknown process. The > only candidates we have for an energy source are proton-proton fusion, which > sounds utterly silly but which can't be totally ruled out; pd fusion (but it > isn't that in gas-phase Ni/H); or 'weird' like ZPF. 1H1 + 3Li7 -> 2 * 2He4 or 1H1 + 3Li6 -> 2He4 + 2He3 both yield massive charged particles with low penetrating power, that at most would create soft x-rays as the only form of radiation that could be detected outside setup. And I still haven't heard, whether anyone has even looked for x-rays. > > It's all very well our saying that there's no obvious radiation, therefore the The point is, it may be _non-obvious_ radiation. > thing is entirely safe. We can't even predict how it might start to behave > after six months of use. Until the mechanism is reasonably well understood [snip] Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 04:42:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA03741 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 04:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA03735 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 04:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA19328; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:29:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:29:07 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: How much $$ would you In-Reply-To: <199512191003.VAA15623 tornado.netspace.net.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On 15 Dec 95 at 4:45, Chris Tinsley wrote: > [snip] > > But look, Norman - this is producing power through some unknown process. The > > only candidates we have for an energy source are proton-proton fusion, which > > sounds utterly silly but which can't be totally ruled out; pd fusion (but it > > isn't that in gas-phase Ni/H); or 'weird' like ZPF. I wanted to comment on this at the time but was busy: Chris, I think you are saying that gas-phase charging would mean no deuterium in the metal? The percentage of deuterium in H2 gas is the same as in water, and the uptake of it in the metal would be (roughly, though not quite) the same, so in either case you'd get about the same number of p-d pairs finding each other. Remember Schwinger thought pd fusion the most likely. Against this is the fact that noone has ever found 3He, the product. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 05:41:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA07988 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA07979 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA28319; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:24:37 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512191324.AA28319 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:24:37 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <199512190636.AAA04777 natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Dec 19, 95 00:36:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little writes: > > Well, we got out CETI cell approximation (as opposed to > "replication") running today and achieved a null result. > [snip] > > Despite the insulating properties of our beads, we observed > good electrical conductivity in our cell. We achieved a > current of .2 amps with about 7 volts, a bit lower effective > cell resistance than the PowerGen demo cell. > Can you tell whther the electrolysis current is running straight from the Pt cathode connector to the anode? ie Is there anyway of knowing whether any of the current flows through the beads? How did you pack the beads together but keep them seperate from the anode? > > We ran the cell at this level of electrolysis power and a > flow rate of 5 ml/sec for several hours and observed no > detectable delta-T (we have 0.1 degree resolution on our > temperature probes which, at 5 ml/sec, translates to about 2 > watt resolution on output power). We then arranged a heater > for the electrolyte and raised its temperature to around 45 > degrees C. We reduced the flow rate to 2 ml/sec and ran for > several more hours. At 2 ml/sec the resolution is about 1 > watt and we could just barely see the input power showing up > as a 0.1 degree delta-T. > These flow rates are substantially higher than the CETI calorimeters apart from POWERGEN. The SOFE demo had 14 ml/minute. The first incarnation of the Patterson Cell showed only a 10% effect and excess heat was only shown to be present after a correction was made for energy lost to electrolysis. With these very crude approximations to Patterson cells I think you need to substantially improve your calorimeters resolution. Try to get the flow rates down by 2 orders of magnitude and put thermal insulation around the cell to limit heat loss to the atmosphere. Plastic bubble wrap is a cheap, effective and transperent choice. It was suggested by Cravens for the tent test. > > Next we will try a bed of pure Ni spheres ranging in size > from .3mm to .8mm. If Ni is the active element in the > latest CETI cells, perhaps pure Ni will work to some degree. > > Any suggestions? > Try to get as close an approximation to the outside of the Patterson beads as possible. Contact a friendly electroplating firm and ask if they can put the Pd/Ni coating on the 0.3 mm diameter Ni beads. The smaller diammeter might compenstate for the lack of non-conducting core. Martin Sevior > > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 06:48:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA14800 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA14790 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA07228; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:32:49 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 09:25:22 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you Message-ID: <951219142521_100433.1541_BHG60-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Robin comments on the possibility of Li + p type reactions, and the matter of the soft X-rays. I'm by no means certain, but I'd heard that there were no detectable X-rays. Anyway, I reckon that Miley's crew will *most certainly* have looked for them, I bet we'd have heard by now if they'd found any. On the Li reactions, while giving a nod of acknowledgement to Bush and Eagleton, I would comment - as Dieter says - that I was making a link with the Ni/H gas-phase reports. If they are correct, and *if* they are the same reaction, then Li doesn't come into it. But Dieter mentions deuterium. The calculations show that d+p cannot be the source of energy in the reported Piantelli work, the total amount of d present in the closed reaction vessel he reported in Il Nouvo Cimento simply hasn't got anywhere near enough d in it to produce the heat he reported. We have a problem here. Many have attempted to find calorimetric error in each CF report, yet have failed to suggest a reason for so many reports. Similarly, many have attempted to suggest a mechanism for each report - while failing signally to produce a globally satisfying one. One particularly telling comment in the Equinox programme came from the man at the fire station in Georgia where a Griggs machine had been heating the water for a year or more. He said that they'd had people from the power company, from Hydrosonic and from the local university check out the efficiency of the installation. Seemingly well-aware of the significance of what he was saying, he pointed out that with well-calibrated equipment they had found that the machine was well over 100% efficient, and that until someone could prove otherwise, that suited him very well. It is against the general background of all this kind of thing that I raise my own hypotheses. I cannot accept that all the thermal reports are invalid, and it would be a difficult task to show just where Jed Rothwell (not to mention Dennis Cravens or George Miley) can have gone wrong. Similarly, I cannot accept that *all* the reports of nuclear events in CF systems are wrong. But the fact remains that there is no common thread running through them, and specifically there is no common nuclear mechanism. There are not even any suggestions of strong stoichiometry between heat and products within a *single* experiment! We can then consider the possible reality of over-unity in certain non-linear electrical machines, and the possibility that nano- equivavalents of them might exist at the molecular or atomic level. Taking a globalist view of all this, we might well consider that Hal's ideas relating to the ZPF might have much to recommend them as a starting point for theory. Naturally, I would wish to see a thorough study of the the CETI device for reaction products and for radiation; but would feel reasonably secure in suggesting that 'nuclear' effects are unlikely to be found, and that even if they are found they will not be stoichiometric with the heat. This of course leaves us with the reports of nuclear effects, be they radiation, transmutation between stable nuclides, or even the various reports of remediation of unstable nuclides. Again, I cannot accept that they are all false. For these, I would suggest that just as nuclear fission requires 'cold' condensed matter and slow neutrons, so the 'nuclear' environment in condensed matter is a very different animal from that in plasmas. Specifically, I would again look at the role of the Casimir attraction, and ask whether it would behave in the same way in the 'fast' environment of a plasma or accelerator as it would in condensed matter. Does not any 'exclusion' force like Casimir attraction require a time-frame in which to operate, and thus show a difference between its effects on slow and fast events? But, you see, I'm not a scientist. Like Pooh, "I am a bear of very little brain, and long words bother me". I must leave these deep questions to my betters. I wish we could persuade Patterson to hand over his wrinkled balls. Frankly, I now see 'our' problem as political and personal more than scientific. As have others here, I commend Jed for his efforts to instill a sense of reality into CETI, efforts backed by his excellent knowledge of the commercial history of technology. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 07:08:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA16763 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA16756 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA24353; Tue, 19 Dec 95 09:48:55 EST Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 09:48:54 EST Message-Id: <9512191448.AA24353 clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: vtx: Bearden! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Bill, > > >> Netscape (etc.) is nearly a requirement, since the photos and >illustrations must not be missed! << > >I d/ld the pics from Jed's report and they were fine on screen, but only icons >after saving to disk. I can't find a way of saving pics which are imbedded >in text, using Netscape or Spry Mosaic. Is there an easy way of doing this >anyone? > With Netscape, you can save any graphic element (inline gif etc.) by placing your cursor on the image and clicking your RIGHT mouse button. It gives you a drop down menu and provides the name of the source file etc. Just define a path and save to disk. regards Gary >TIA Norman. > > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 07:09:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA17518 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA17511 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA02149; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:53:13 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 09:52:01 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Rockwell charges $$$ to look for helium Message-ID: <951219145201_72240.1256_EHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner wrote: "I doubt if Rockwell labs would be willing to have another go at He analysis." They would be perfectly willing to do it. You just have to pay them thousands of bucks and wait a few months. EPRI paid them to look at the E-Quest samples. You have to wait because they are backed up with work. The samples must be stored in special stainless steel flasks that cost hundreds of dollars each. "Of course a gas sample might be better for that anyway." Yes, it would be. Actually, there is no way you could look for helium in any sample of electrolyte, gas or cathode from any of the calorimeters CETI and their strategic research partners have used up until now. They are all either open cells or they leak like sieves. People have used various techniques and both flow and static calorimeters to look for helium, but I think the flow calorimeter approaches I have seen in Italy and Japan were kludges. They are too complicated, with too many potential leaks. I think Miles has the best approach to looking for helium: 1. Use a static calorimeter. 2. Seal it carefully with only one carefully controlled opening, so that the effluent gas of electrolysis ensures pressure positive. The pressure in the cell is always slightly above one atmosphere, so all leaks are out. 3. A sample of effluent gas is captured in a stainless steel collection flask over some fixed period of time. The helium (assuming there is any) is mixed in with the effluent hydrogen and oxygen gas. 4. To make this easier, it is best to increase the ratio of excess power to effluent gas (electrolysis power). If you get the ratio high enough, the concentration of helium in the effluent gas should be higher than the atmospheric concentration of helium. That would prevent helium contamination from the atmosphere. CETI would have an easier time at this than Miles, because Miles and others working with Pd D2O get a lot of D2 gas which has an atomic weight close to 4He (4.02820 amu versus 4.00260 amu). CETI will get mostly HH and HD gas, with only a tiny fraction ending up as DD molecules, so I guess they will not have to go through elaborate procedures to remove the D2 molecules, or use an ultra-high resolution mass spectrometer. After I drink another cuppa coffee here I am going to try and figure out how high the excess power would have to be with 100 mW input before helium concentration exceeds the magic limit of atmospheric helium concentration. I am assuming here that CF is a nuclear reaction, not ZPE or what-have-you. I am also assuming that it produces roughly the same amount of helium per joule as hot hydrogen fusion does. If it isn't nuclear or it causes some other transmutation then all bets are off. E-Quest recently told me that while they are still getting large, long bursts of excess heat, they have not seen such high concentrations of helium again. Their results now conform to those of other researchers who have seen commensurate helium sometimes but not other times. E-Quest and I both think that if they could afford to do a careful analysis of their cathode, they would find isotope shifts in the metal from nuclear reactions roughly commensurate with the heat. They think that CF can take any number of different 'nuclear pathways' (as it were), sometimes transmuting hydrogen into helium, sometimes transmuting hydrogen into heavy hydrogen, and sometime transmuting heavy elements within the cathode. "It is not one reaction" is how E-Quest put it. Whatever it is, it's complicated. I predict CF cars will be whizzing down the highways before the physicists reach a quorum and agree among themselves what it is. (Please notice I did not say "until physicists figure it out" -- I suspect they never figure anything out.) Norman writes: "I'm still trying to work out why all the successful cells use plastic beads." I am not sure if that is true or not. I think a non-conducting core is essential, for the reasons discussed here earlier relating to high current density near the surface, but I do not know if a plastic core is needed. I think maybe a ceramic core would work, but I believe people are having difficulty making the thin film stick to the core. 99% of the problems CETI and others have experienced over the years with thin film CF have had nothing to do with CF per se. They have been prosaic materials problems: things like thin film peeling off. Deiter asks: "Also, how much gas is in the electrolyte as it exits from the cell? I am not saying - nor do I believe - that gas bubble content can give rise to 1300 W by increasing flow rate or decreasing heat capacity, but the effect ought to be looked at and accounted for." There is no way you can measure effluent gas with this big calorimeter. It has no controlled gas trap and as I said, it leaks gas like a sieve in many spots. You would have to rebuild it from scratch, with fewer connectors, tubes, valves, stopcocks, split tubes going to the control cell, and so on. The ICCF5 calorimeter had an air tight gas trap with a gas flowmeter attached to the gas exhaust tube, but I do not think you could hook up anything like that to this arrangement. The liquid flow is much too fast, for one reason. You would get liquid splashing and headed down the gas exhaust tube. They got that with the ICCF5 calorimeter. The liquid wrecked the (expensive) gas flowmeter I believe, or at least put it out of commission for a while. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 07:17:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA18879 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA18836 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA14247 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:03:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199512191503.AA14247 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:03:26 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: PUTHOFF aol.com To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: magnets Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:02:31 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> PUTHOFF AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I think that I understand how electrons condensations can produce excess energy. Puthoff has worked out many details concerning electron condensations. I do not, however, understand how superpowerfull magnets could be producing excess energy. It must be do tosome interaction with the magnetic field and the zero point state. This interaction does not involve electron condensations(as far as I can tell). Comparing levels below the Fermi electron level and superconductors I have found many similarities. The Meisner effect is an effect where superconductors exclude flux lines. The effect breaks down after a certain flux density is reached. Do atomic energy levels below the Fermi level also excluded flux lines? Can superpowerful magnets break down this exclusion? Is this the link to the zero point state? How is energy extracted by this link? Any ideas? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 07:50:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA21812 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA21807 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-241.austin.eden.com (net-1-241.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.241]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA29457 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:27:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:27:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512191527.JAA29457 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin comments: >Can you tell whther the electrolysis current is running straight from the >Pt cathode connector to the anode? ie Is there anyway of knowing whether any >of the current flows through the beads? I don't think any of it is flowing "thru" my present beads...but I don't know for sure. >How did you pack the beads together >but keep them seperate from the anode? 3 layers of HDPE screen (a total of about 3mm thickness) separate the bed of beads from the anode, similar to CETI's layer of uncoated beads described in their patent. >Try to get the flow rates down by 2 orders of >magnitude Great suggestion but, at 2ml/sec it's already just dripping out of the end of the hose...I think the flow calorimetry will be "shot to hell" by ambient influences if I even go down to .2ml/sec...but you're rightm I've got to do something so I can see the input power with at least 10% relative precision. > >Try to get as close an approximation to the outside of the Patterson beads as >possible. Contact a friendly electroplating firm and ask if they can put >the Pd/Ni coating on the 0.3 mm diameter Ni beads. The smaller diammeter might >compenstate for the lack of non-conducting core. Yes, that sounds good. Thanks. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 08:12:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA23846 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA23839 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA03844; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:42:05 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 10:30:39 EST From: Wolfram Bahmann <100276.261 compuserve.com> To: VORTEX-L Subject: vtx: ref: Craven's personal attitude Message-ID: <951219153039_100276.261_JHF97-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I watchfully read all comments on Craven's attitude and the differing opinions about having demo kits or not. But can anybody certainly cite what Craven's personal goals in developing the CETI cell effects really are ? If not - is anybody acquainted with him on a friendship basis so that this opinion can be defined ? ... and check whether he is aware of the US secrecy order by which even any patent can get confiscated if the government thinks that it's good for the national security of something similar. (Ref. for secrecy order see home page of Institute for New Energy: www.padrak.com/ine/) So, the way of spreading the knowledge to avoid any suppressive actions from whatever institution is making things public domain, at least to a certain degree - e.g. kits of demo size (max. some 100 Watts) but with COPs enabling a feedback to provide self sustainable modes. If the inventors of the CETI cell are not aware of the mentioned facts the next vortexian having direct contact with Mr. Craven and the other inventors should inform them. ... or are there already big multinational companies behind the scene who like to invest to put a dangerous competiting technology to death ? (The history tells us more than one example; it happened around the globe!) I suppose that the attendees of this forum like me don't want to steal the inventor's ideas but to make certain that proved devices will make their way. Convincing laymen as well as experts can be done by working demo devices and all opponents of the o/u idea are then forced to widen their horizons or to ignore the evident feasibility. And forming products should become true for the benefit of the inventor as well as for us all and our living space. Stop damaging our environment is the goal - and free energy is not a fata morgana ! ------------------------------ Wolfram Bahmann INE & P.A.C.E. board member Feyermuehler Str.12 D-53894 MECHERNICH Germany fax: Int+49/ 2443-8221 e-mail: 100276.261 compuserve.com From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 09:03:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA04943 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:46:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA04902 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuus07601; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14014; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:44:09 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 392243080095353FEPRI; 19 Dec 1995 08:43:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 19 Dec 1995 08:43:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/19/95 08:39:18 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/19/95 06:48 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: How much $$ would you Chris: I would have to give Patterson a lot of sympathy if he was reticent to "turn over his wrinkled balls". This sort of demand has been known to be very painful to males over 40..... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 09:05:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA05608 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA05584 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuut08346; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14318; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:49:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 071548080095353FEPRI; 19 Dec 1995 08:48:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 19 Dec 1995 08:48:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: our cell's first run To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/19/95 08:48:12 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/19/95 01:15 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: our cell's first run The importance of using plastic beads, I do not think, should be overlooked. The Styrene is NOT necessarilly at "saturated" hydrocarbon, and the charging with H could be saturating the underlying styrene, and giving a variety of synergistic effects, such as SWELLING the bead and putting the plating under an interesting tensile stress. Once again, I keep saying, and keep saying and keep saying and keep saying and keep saying and keep saying... IF YOU HAVE A RECIPEIT (I can't spell worth a damn) FOR DOING SOMETHING, AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT WORKS, IF YOU VARY THAT FORMULATION AT ALL, YOU HAVE NO REASON TO EXPECT THE DESIRED RESULT TO BE ACHEIVED! - I.e., Scott: Have you talked to Mike Williams at U. of IL? DO SO! Just plain ASK him for the exact things he has done to make a succesfull reproduction of the CETI work. That's the FASTEST route I can see. - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 09:11:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA06847 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA06834 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuut09409; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16697; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:56:09 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 254454080095353FEPRI; 19 Dec 1995 08:54:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 19 Dec 1995 08:54:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/19/95 08:54:42 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 23:56 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question Dieter: When I was talking about what happened to the Aluminum in my first line where you ask, "You mean oxidized, don't you..." No, I mean REDUCED, as stated. Any metal in it's oxide form tends to be resistant to further chemical reactions unless it is reduced to a pure metalic form. Just a basic chemistry rule. Again, Aluminum's oxide layer is chemically so STRONG that its equilibrium reaction state with regard to known chemical reactions, and particular body temperature biochemical reactions, tends to be near "zero". IF we could FIND a nice, catalysis based reduction method for Al, then the huge amounts of electricity being used to accomplish that could be saved! - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:03:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA14111 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA14104 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA11833; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:43:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:42:59 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Bearden! In-Reply-To: <951219085608_100060.173_JHB113-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 19 Dec 1995, Norman Horwood wrote: > Bill, > > >> Netscape (etc.) is nearly a requirement, since the photos and > illustrations must not be missed! << > > I d/ld the pics from Jed's report and they were fine on screen, but only icons > after saving to disk. I can't find a way of saving pics which are imbedded > in text, using Netscape or Spry Mosaic. Is there an easy way of doing this > anyone? > > TIA Norman. > > If you're on a Macintosh, simply hold the mouse button down for a moment until a pop-up menu appears which offers "Save this graphic image" and choose that option. If you're not a Macintosh, perhaps you should reconsider. Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:10:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA19518 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA19452 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA18372; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:14:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:14:51 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: Vortex Discussion List Subject: vtx: Real-time discussions Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If we can agree on a palatable time for most people involved, it would be a simple matter to participate in real-time discussion over the internet. All that is required is a suitable client program for the IRC network. I am willing to send anyone a small text file briefly but clearly telling what the IRC network is like and where to get a client for any platform. >From then on, arranging to meet on a particular "channel" at a certain time is simple a matter of doing so. It is my guess that such highly-condensed discussion will form a useful and addictive complement to the slower, more deliberate style of this mailing list. Further, such sessions can be taken to new levels of practicality by the use of shared tools known as AIs (Artificial Intelligences). One of the people on the discussion channel might be actually a program, for instance, that responds to typed commands, embedded into the discussion by the participants, and retrieves all kinds of reference information and performs calculations. Plenty of such AIs already exist; however they concern themselves with kicking people off channels and preventing its programmers and users from being kicked off. They don't usually appear to do anything useful except serve the occasional text file, and they certainly don't perform calculations to researchers who are brainstorming. I think that a preset weekly time would be best, something like Monday night from 6P EST to 10 EST, for example. Someone should look at the time and zone stamps of the posts and see when most people are at their accounts! Charles From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:37:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA00125 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA29947 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-241.austin.eden.com (net-1-123.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.123]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA13899 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:19:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:19:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512191919.NAA13899 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/19/95 01:15 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >I.e., Scott: Have you talked to Mike Williams at U. of IL? DO SO! Just plain >ASK him for the exact things he has done to make a succesfull reproduction >of the CETI work. That's the FASTEST route I can see. I have done so. I like Williams (he's an engineer ). That's where I learned about sputtering which is how they made their beads. I've played with sputtering a little in my vacuum chamber and I think it's working. It's a pretty slow process (hours). Williams can't talk about everything they're doing because of the NDA with CETI. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:37:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA00681 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00623 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-241.austin.eden.com (net-1-123.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.123]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA14053 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:21:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:21:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512191921.NAA14053 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/18/95 23:18 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >down to the lower flow, i.e. 15ml/minute. Put in .1 watts, see if you can >move your TCs and Thermisters around in the inlet and outlet and get a "bogus" >signal of 5 degrees C deltaT. Very good suggestion, thanks. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:42:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01737 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01646 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA20258 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:27:00 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:30:17 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> 1. Obtain a small sample of used electrolyte for chemical analysis. >> Someone with a decent lab might offer to work it over pretty well. > >Let me make a prediction of what an analysis will find: the original >LiSO4, which would not react; some dissolved Ni, a tiny amount of >dissolved Cu. All totally unexciting. Chemistry will not explain the >claims, no matter what exotic chemicals they might have stuck into the >cell. By all means look for transient currents or voltages but my bet is >you won't find any. [snip] > >-- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk I suggested looking for transient A/C or sound because it is expected to be there symptomatically if my Partial Orbital Hypothesis (POH) has some validity. (Note - the "s u b" word not used to avoid hangup of vortex-l) The POH is a non-chemical explanation, and says the origin of excess energy is not the DC power source. By the POH the energy is tapped from the universe via entropy (ZPE) by electrons which accelerate towards H nuclei, release photons, and thus do not have sufficient energy to escape from the nucleus nor to form a lowest energy orbital. These electrons escape via their suddenly "locality fixed" and therefore expanded quantum waveforms which eventually enable tunneling away from the nucleus. By the POH these electrons are initially stripped from the conduction bands by approach of free H nuclei, or via cosmic rays, or lattice fractures, or other high energy stimulation. The partial orbital electrons (POE) must have initial energies of 1.5KeV or more unless a magnetic field is present. These electrons generate far UV or low voltage x-rays. After an initial stimulation a kind of electron-photon chain reaction is hypothesised: e-p-e-p-e-p. In that one POE can generate multiple photons such a stimulation could result in a wave of energy production flowing through the lattice, followed by an electron recovery period. Such a wave might generate phonons, or compress the plastic bead and or generate a weak electromagnetic pulse. Resonant conditions due to lattice fractures or irregularities would unfortunately probably produce signals in the GHz range. Pulses due to waves flowing throughout the surface would be tied to bead size, i.e. 1 mm. To a small degree, but not corresponding to the energy generated, you might expect elemental or isotopic transmutations. This is because the POE is momentarily trapped, producing a small neutrally charged body which, to some degree, would overcome the coulomb barrier in the same fashion as a neutron. The changes in the electrolyte and beads would be that expected by bombardment of the cell with a low intensity beam of thermal neutrons. You would expect a correspondingly very small emission of signatures of such events, such as gammas and high energy betas. So Scott, that gives rise to another suggestion since you already have an x-ray detector, if it's not busy inside a van de Graff! If you get a cell working, you might want to look for x-rays. It might take quite a while to tabulate above background and controll. Maybe Martin Sevoir could get access to one at CETI? Such a study would be too much to expect for a week, though. It sure would provde to the skeptics proof positive that *something* nuclear is going on if cell on: x-rays, cell off: no x-rays. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:17:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA07984 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07956 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-241.austin.eden.com (net-1-219.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.219]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA16413 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:04:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:04:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512192004.OAA16413 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Takahaski report X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Word from the technical gurus at a major US permanent magnet supplier: All the "major players" (e.g. Shinitsu, Shintoa, TDK, etc.) have heard of Mr. T and have approached him with what seems to be a reasonable request: Loan us one sample of your magnet so we can confirm your claims and then we'll talk business....big business Apparently, Mr. T refuses to do this. Chris said Mr. T want $30 million bucks. I propose a little bluff to test Mr. T's mettle. Chris, if you can still communicate with T, tell him you've got a serious group in the US (us) who will produce the 30 million on one condition: Mr. T must supply a testable sample of >120 MGO magnet material. Once we are satisfied that the material is actually that good, he gets his money. If he does come through, I'm actually pretty confident that we could raise the necessary capital...so it's not really a bluff. What I'm most interested in seeing is his initial reaction to this proposal. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:48:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA13120 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.dvcorp.com (gatekeeper.dvcorp.com [198.3.35.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13095 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root localhost) by gatekeeper.dvcorp.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA03471 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:37:48 -0500 Received: from vicorp.dvcorp.com(198.3.32.30) by gatekeeper.dvcorp.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003468; Tue Dec 19 15:37:22 1995 Received: from lux.dvcorp.com (lux [198.3.32.117]) by dvcorp.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA17095 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:37:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:37:21 -0500 From: Ron Peterson Message-Id: <199512192037.PAA17095 dvcorp.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Offer to beta test a CF cell Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyone know if CETI needs (or will need) a beta tester for a home heating product? I've got a BA in physics, have been in software quality assurance doing testing for six years (plus another seven years previously of engineering experience), and I live in Vermont where we currently have got a lot of cold (and more on the way!) Perhaps offering kits to interested people could be viewed as a beta testing process rather than as a novelty item. Use in a thermostatically controlled heating situation (i.e., a changing load on the cell) might introduce unforseen variables. Venting of reaction gas would certainly be a concern I'd have as a homeowner; wouldn't want to come home after a vacation to a basement full of a hydrogen/oxygen mixture. Ron RonP sover.net ron dvcorp.com From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:48:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11327 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11286 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA07508; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:28:00 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 18:23:32 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Bearden! Message-ID: <951219232331_100060.173_JHB69-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, >> This all is such a pain that I wonder if someone somewhere is selling a piece of PC software which does it automatically. << You can say that again! Perhaps Jed can throw some light on this problem. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:48:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11376 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11316 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA22205; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:28:03 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 18:23:48 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Bearden! Message-ID: <951219232347_100060.173_JHB69-5 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles, >> If you're not a Macintosh, perhaps you should reconsider. << I'm reconsidering Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:49:36 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11394 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11317 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA22198; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:28:02 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 18:23:37 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Bearden! Message-ID: <951219232336_100060.173_JHB69-3 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gary, >> With Netscape, you can save any graphic element (inline gif etc.) by placing your cursor on the image and clicking your RIGHT mouse button. << Great news, the so-called help files in the version I have (2.0 beta) make no mention of that. Many thanks. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:49:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11383 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11319 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA22216; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:28:04 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 18:23:53 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Takahaski report Message-ID: <951219232352_100060.173_JHB69-6 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >> a reasonable request: Loan us one sample of your magnet so we can confirm your claims and then we'll talk business....big business Apparently, Mr. T refuses to do this. << I wonder if Takahashi would accept a completely guaranteed secrecy bond from the Royal Institution to let them test his magnet material in Faraday's original lab. What do y'all think? I have his card and tel: No. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:51:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA12414 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA12401 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-241.austin.eden.com (net-1-192.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.192]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id RAA01469 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:34:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:34:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512192334.RAA01469 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Takahaski report X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I wonder if Takahashi would accept a completely guaranteed secrecy bond from >the Royal Institution to let them test his magnet material in Faraday's >original lab. > >What do y'all think? I have his card and tel: No. > >Norman. Go for it. If he refuses... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:52:20 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11423 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11398 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA07613; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:28:30 -0500 Date: 19 Dec 95 18:23:43 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Rockwell charges $$$ to look for helium Message-ID: <951219232342_100060.173_JHB69-4 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed said, >> I think a non-conducting core is essential, for the reasons discussed here earlier relating to high current density near the surface, but I do not know if a plastic core is needed. << Does the Pd or whatever conducting film have to act as one of the electrodes in the cell? It might be well worth trying the fluidized bed approach just to get that question settled. I think it was Hugo who pointed out that with the fluidization the beads hardly touch and therefore cannot conduct current. It seems to me that any current taking the Pd film route may well be wasted as far as the ou effect is concerned, and the eventual failure of cells where the film has broken up or exfoliated may be due to the short circuiting of the current by the bits of metal, and bypassing the electrolyte. Has anyone tried a swiss roll with an insulating porus interlayer separating sheets of thin foil instead of balls? The electrodes would not be attached to the roll but placed axially at each end of the cell. Just the ramblings of an old Engineer. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:01:36 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA14082 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA14023 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-241.austin.eden.com (net-1-192.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.192]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id RAA02289 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:42:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:42:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512192342.RAA02289 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: update on our cell X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Today's testing, conducted with the Pd-alumina beads continued to show little or nothing. As several of you have correctly pointed out, my present calorimetry is rather coarse so this does not prove that I'm not getting a small excess (say a watt or two). However, the Ni spheres arrived today so I broke things down and loaded them into the cell in preparation for tomorrow's maiden run. Distilled water flows thru the cell pretty well despite the fact that I elected to include a 5 micron TFE filter disc to prevent the little balls from escaping from the cell (imagine what just one .5mm Ni ball would do to the gear pump!). Stay tuned to Vortex-L for tomorrow's near-live experimental results. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:14:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA16163 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA16117 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.70 (eb1ppp6.shentel.net [204.111.1.70]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA02735; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:56:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199512192356.SAA02735 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 18:58:29 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Pd coated beads To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <9512182346.AA13721 kosal0.triumf.ca> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Martin Sevior wrote: >Horace Heffner writes: > >> >> Some possibly impractical suggestions: >> >> 1. Obtain a small sample of used electrolyte for chemical analysis. >> Someone with a decent lab might offer to work it over pretty well. >> >> > >This is a good idea and is easy to implement. I'll take a sample back with >me. Does anyone have a contact that will do a thorough chemical analysis? > >I don't think Dennis will let me get away with any beads but I'll try. If it were only the Japanese that had the cell. I read in the Post about how the CIA is working with American companies to perform all sorts of industrial espionage. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 17:41:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA17510 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA17444; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:01:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.70 (eb1ppp6.shentel.net [204.111.1.70]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA03174; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:02:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199512200002.TAA03174 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:03:45 -0500 From: VISOR globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: Bearden! To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex In-Reply-To: <951219232331_100060.173_JHB69-2 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 19 Dec 95, Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> wrote: >Bill, > > >> This all is such a pain that I wonder if someone somewhere is selling a >piece of PC software which does it automatically. << > >You can say that again! Perhaps Jed can throw some light on this problem. > >Norman. I tested all the software that I have on my PC and all would copy the .gif's to file or to printer. This included Spry, FTP, Microsoft, Netscape and Chameleon. Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:57:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA12647 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12622 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-26.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-26.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.26]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA09253 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:42:51 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512200242.NAA09253 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:47:08 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 19 Dec 95 at 0:36, Scott Little wrote: > Well, we got out CETI cell approximation (as opposed to > "replication") running today and achieved a null result. > > We're using 1 molar Li2SO4+H2O electrolyte (i.e. 128 grams > of that salt in 1 liter of distilled water). Our cell has > Pt lead-in wires and Pt screens to contact the beads. We're [snip] > We used Pd-coated alumina beads for the first run. These are > standard catalyst beads and are simply a "shot in the > dark"...taken because we do not have "real" beads. One > discouraging fact about these beads is that the Pd coating > does not conduct electricity significantly. This was > determined by probing a bead with ohmmeter leads. We > learned that catalyst users are not concerned with > electrical conductivity but rather surface area. These > beads are reported to be covered with tiny "crystallites" of > Pd...which apparently are not touching each other. > > Despite the insulating properties of our beads, we observed > good electrical conductivity in our cell. We achieved a Scott, if the beads are pretty much non conducting, then you may find that they play no part in conducting the current through the cell. The current may simply be flowing through the anode screen, the electrolyte, and the cathode screen. If this is so, then you should get just about the same cell voltage and current performance from a cell with just the screens, and no beads at all. > current of .2 amps with about 7 volts, a bit lower effective > cell resistance than the PowerGen demo cell. > [snip] > > Next we will try a bed of pure Ni spheres ranging in size > from .3mm to .8mm. If Ni is the active element in the > latest CETI cells, perhaps pure Ni will work to some degree. > > Any suggestions? Yes, I think you will find that you need at least 1 metal-metal interface (i.e. multiple layers), and probably the more the better. Furthermore, while the metals should have different lattice cell sizes, they should both be H absorbers. You might try different combinations of all the transition metals. If you start with the least electronegative metal first, then you should be able to apply separate coatings, simply by dipping the beads in successive solutions of salts of metals of increasing electronegativity. At each "dipping", some of the metal of the previous layer will displace the metal currently in solution, resulting in a fresh layer of metal from the current solution being deposited. E.g. an iron nail dipped in copper sulphate solution acquires a copper layer. You would need to experiment with the times to get the right thickness of layers. Your biggest problem may be oxide layers forming on the fresh metal after removal from the salt baths, thus keep air exposure between baths to an absolute minimum. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:58:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA12694 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12652 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-26.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-26.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.26]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA09260 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:42:58 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512200242.NAA09260 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:47:07 +0900 Subject: vtx: Visit to NM. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin, You might also like to try wrapping some unexposed photographic film around the device, (but still in it's protective wrapping). Put a coin between device and film package, then when it's developed, you can see if there was any low level radiation (leave it on for an hour or so?) Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 21:57:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA05529 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA05498 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tSHDX-00051WC; Tue, 19 Dec 95 23:37 CST Message-Id: Subject: vtx: Phase change experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:37:31 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <9512191428.AA29764 kosal0.triumf.ca> from "Martin Sevior" at Dec 19, 95 06:28:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I kinda did a little phase change experiment on some Li2SO4 solution. The results are available in graphic form on my web page, url below. I didn't detect any non-thermal energy storage in comparing plain water and lithium sulfate solution with resistive heaters. The delta T was 15F. The applied power was 2.2 watts. I had it turn on the heater at 80F and turn it off at 95F. These temperatures were selected because my ambient is roughly 74F and the maximum I could heat the cell to was 103F, using the 2.2 watts. These values are of order of magnitude (I seem to recall) of the ICCF5 demo. So the results would seem to apply. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 22:27:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA08876 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA08862 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-136.austin.eden.com (net-1-136.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.136]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA21598 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:00:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:00:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512200600.AAA21598 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Phase change experiment X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I kinda did a little phase change experiment on some Li2SO4 solution. >The results are available in graphic form on my web page, url below. Nice work, John. Looks like 1 molar LiSO4 soln has a specific heat very close to that of water, doesn't it? BTW, what kind of data acq. system are you using...what programming language? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 23:05:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA14327 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA14318 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:47:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tSIIz-0005QZC; Wed, 20 Dec 95 00:47 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Phase change experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:47:13 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <199512200600.AAA21598 natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Dec 20, 95 00:00:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Looks like 1 molar LiSO4 soln has a specific heat very close to that of > water, doesn't it? Cravens suggested about a 0.95 specific heat. That'd amount to about a hundred joules difference, I think, in my system. Since I have a resolution of one minute, that's 132J minute (at 2.2 watt.) So I don't know that I can resolve the difference with all the other "noise." If I had seen, say, 10 minutes longer heat up and 10 minutes longer cool down, for the sulfate solution, that *would* have been trouble. But because I saw faster cool down inspite of slower heat up, the phase change hypothesis didn't fit. > BTW, what kind of data acq. system are you using...what programming language? I got a relatively cheap A/D card from BSoft. It has 8 multiplexed channels to a four range A/D converter, 12 bits. It plugs into a PC. I have an old XT computer with a 10 meg hard drive. This thing is dog slow. I can only do 705 conversions per minute. On my 386 I can do 20,000 conversions per second. The limitation is in the port addressing, for some reason. I am using the IBM BASIC on the XT. I tried compiling C language routines, but that did not speed up the system -- it is a hardware limitation. I take that data, via floppy, over to my 386 (now a Cyrix 486) and I use GFA Basic (DOS version) to render the graphs. I simply paint the graph on the screen and use the "PrintScreen" button to signal Windows95 to capture the screen to the clip-board. Then I go back into Windows95 and paste the clip-board to a graphics program, from which I dump to gif format and upload to my web page. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 00:26:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA21745 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA21725 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA07357; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:01:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:01:13 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 19 Dec 1995, MHUGO EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 12/18/95 23:56 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Re: vtx: non-vortex question > Dieter: When I was talking about what happened to the Aluminum in my first > line where you ask, "You mean oxidized, don't you..." No, I mean REDUCED, > as stated. Any metal in it's oxide form tends to be resistant to further > chemical reactions unless it is reduced to a pure metalic form. Just a basic > chemistry rule. Again, Aluminum's oxide layer is chemically so STRONG that > its equilibrium reaction state with regard to known chemical reactions, > and particular body temperature biochemical reactions, tends to be near > "zero". IF we could FIND a nice, catalysis based reduction method for Al, > then the huge amounts of electricity being used to accomplish that could > be saved! Well, I'm a chemist, and I have never heard of this basic rule. What you might be talking about is further oxidation, in which case you'd be right. As for biochemical reactions, these would involve dissolved Al in the oxidised state, but not as the oxide, more likely as the hydrated Al+++ ion or its complex with one or two hydroxide ions. You can watch Al2O3 not resisting further reaction by dropping a bit of Al into a strong acid. The Al in the oxide layer does not change oxidation state but does go off into solution as Al+++ ions. Al is special with its "skin" of oxide that won't let more oxygen through. Corrosion people call this passivation. Without that, Al would crumble before our eyes into a white powder, its oxide. As for production of Al metal from bauxite, you need to reduce the metal ion to the metal. You can't do that with just a catalyst, you need a reducing agent as well. Electrons do a good job. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 00:37:42 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA22461 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA22444 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22291 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:06:41 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:09:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 12/19/95 01:15 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: our cell's first run >The importance of using plastic beads, I do not think, should be overlooked. >The Styrene is NOT necessarilly at "saturated" hydrocarbon, and the charging >with H could be saturating the underlying styrene, and giving a variety >of synergistic effects, such as SWELLING the bead and putting the >plating under an interesting tensile stress. Once again, I keep saying, and >keep saying and keep saying and keep saying and keep saying and keep saying... >IF YOU HAVE A RECIPEIT (I can't spell worth a damn) FOR DOING SOMETHING, >AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT WORKS, IF YOU VARY THAT FORMULATION AT ALL, >YOU HAVE NO REASON TO EXPECT THE DESIRED RESULT TO BE ACHEIVED! >- >I.e., Scott: Have you talked to Mike Williams at U. of IL? DO SO! Just plain >ASK him for the exact things he has done to make a succesfull reproduction >of the CETI work. That's the FASTEST route I can see. >- >MDH Amen. These are great ideas. Also, regarding the plastic beads, it may be the natural C14 that provides the "ignition condition" via radioactive decay. Those 156KeV betas could stir things up a bit. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 01:13:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA27176 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA27163 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22360 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:50:32 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:53:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: magnets Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > -> PUTHOFF AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 >I think that I understand how electrons condensations can produce excess >energy. Puthoff has worked out many details concerning electron >condensations. I do not, however, understand how superpowerfull magnets >could be producing excess energy. It must be do tosome interaction with the >magnetic field and the zero point state. This interaction does not involve >electron condensations(as far as I can tell). Comparing levels below the >Fermi electron level and superconductors I have found many similarities. >The Meisner effect is an effect where superconductors exclude flux lines. >The effect breaks down after a certain flux density is reached. Do >atomic energy levels below the Fermi level also excluded flux lines? >Can superpowerful magnets break down this exclusion? Is this the link >to the zero point state? How is energy extracted by this link? Any >ideas? > Frank Znidarsic If a sufficient electrostatic field could be created, particles created via vacuum fluctuations, i.e. normally for dT < h/[2(Pi)(dE)] inside the field could be permanently separated, thus creating mass, thus creating energy. One method which has been suggested for doing this is to create an atom with sufficient mass that the electrostatic gradient between the innermost shell and the nucleus would be of sufficient strength to do this. In a sufficient magnetic field, bizarre but stable orbitals which extend far from the nucleus, way out into a Newtonian like (or non-QM, non-discrete) space, are feasible. Electrons in these orbitals are called Rydberg electrons. Rydberg electrons also have the desirable characteristic of plunging deep into the cloud of electrons for a close nucleus approach. The non-fuzzy newtonian looking "orbtal" is due to quantum wave interference - the only remaining path is the Rydberg orbital. I would like to hypothesize that similar paths exist which are not closed, i.e. are not orbitals, but are partial orbitals, thus photon emission is a possibility. If such orbitals approach a nucleus with sufficient closeness, electron/positron pairs should burst forth out of the core of the atom due to the electrostatic field strength. An electron in a close nucleus approach would beaccelerated toward the nucleus, thus would be prone to emit a high energy photon. Having done so, the photon could be momentarily locked ion close vicinity to the nucleus, thus creating for an extended duration the desired strong field gradient with the nucleus. The positrons generated from the vacuum fluctuations would quickly collide with and annihilate an electron, and gammas should result. Another possibility is that high angular momentum e-,e+ pairs could form momentarily and align their spin axis with the existing magnetic field, generating a burst of magnetic field strength. If any kind of synchronization of such effects to a macro scale could be obtained, energy could be derived. E.G., if rotation of a magnetic armature should push B just over the threshold for Rydberg orbital formation, and this could cause a brief pulsed increase in field strength, the armature would receive an extra impulse while approaching. Similarly while departing, a built up counter emf and counter magnetic field would suppress B and stop Rydberg orbital formation. Some problems with this idea is that gammas should be detectable and that such a motor should noticeably and quickly heat up. What do you think? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 03:04:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA06655 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 02:45:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA06646 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 02:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.19]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA21483 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:43:12 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512201043.VAA21483 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:47:41 +0900 Subject: vtx: Peeling layers Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A It may prove easier to get a good bond between a metal and a semiconductor than between a metal and plastic. Tiny spheres of silicon would still have an electrical resistance thousands of times higher than a metal, yet may allow good metal adhesion. The silicon wouldn't even need to be very pure. It would also stand much higher temperatures than plastics. There must be plenty of info on this available from semiconductor research. In fact the company that makes solar energy converters based on silicon beads may even be able to supply beads ready to use. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 05:18:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA16905 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 04:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA16893 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 04:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA12350; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:56:54 -0500 Date: 20 Dec 95 07:53:49 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Takahaski report Message-ID: <951220125349_100060.173_JHB29-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, Re: Takahashi magnets >> Go for it << I phoned his home and spoke to his p.a. Hopefully T. will ring me back. Watch this space. Norman. P.S. Since writing the above, T's sidekick, a Mr Sawai rang me back to have a chat. The upshot is that they are having difficulty attracting enough cash to produce demo units of the motor. They seem to have raised enough to make 5 3kW motors for selected testing, which are expected to be available Feb or March '96. I asked him to let the RI Faraday lab have a sample of the magnet material to validate its qualities and he offered me the unsintered powder. However, as this would not be in the condition for magnetic testing I refused it. On the other hand Sawai liked the idea of the R.I. testing one of their 3kW motors. They are already talking to Prof. Norton (I think) of U of London with testing in mind, and I might be able to liaise with him if all else fails. I've left it that Sawai will contact me when they have something ready for testing, probably end of Feb. Continue to watch this space! N. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 06:28:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA25044 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA25037 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA05510; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:14:14 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512201414.AA05510 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: vtx: Please leave Dennis Cravens alone!!!!! To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi everyone, due to a major screwup on my part I've accidently broadcasted Dennis Cravens phone numbers to the group. You also now know that Scott Little will be joining me on our trip plus my proposal for a preliminary agenda. Please delete the phone numbers and please, please don't bug Dennis Cravens. He really doesn't want to have lots of people bothering him. Things are very delicate. John can you make sure that message isn't archived? I've got to stop writing during these very early morning shifts... Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:01:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA00616 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA00604 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA03192; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:50:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:49:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Peeling layers In-Reply-To: <199512201043.VAA21483 tornado.netspace.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > It may prove easier to get a good bond between a metal and a > semiconductor than between a metal and plastic. Tiny spheres of > silicon would still have an electrical resistance thousands of times > higher than a metal, yet may allow good metal adhesion. Good idea. Germanium may be a better choice, since Silicon develops an SiO2 layer (glass) because of atmospheric oxygen. Early semiconductor researchers avoided silicon because of this spontaneous insulating layer. Germanium is used in education because (though expensive) it lacks this layer. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:15:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA02802 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA02739 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuye11349; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13455; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:03:21 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 895501070095354FEPRI; 20 Dec 1995 07:01:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Dec 1995 07:01:07 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Please leave Dennis Cravens alone!!!!! To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/20/95 07:01:55 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/20/95 06:27 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Please leave Dennis Cravens alone!!!!! Martin: I've had Dennis' phone number for YEARS... I call Dennis maybe once every couple months. And during this time I have NOT been calling him, because I've known roughly where he is, and what he is doing all the time. YOU ARE RIGHT, calling him right now is counter-productive! Have no fear, I think all the people on this web are sharp enough to understand this. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:47:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06738 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA06727 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tSQS7-0005JkC; Wed, 20 Dec 95 09:29 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Please leave Dennis Cravens alone!!!!! To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:29:10 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <9512201414.AA05510 kosal0.triumf.ca> from "Martin Sevior" at Dec 20, 95 06:14:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > I've accidently broadcasted Dennis Cravens phone numbers to the group. Cravens' phone number and address are listed in the ICCF5 attendee's section. So you aren't exactly giving away state secrets. :-) > John can you make sure that message isn't archived? I haven't archive vortex-l for a while (due to disk crash loss of a month's worth.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 08:27:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA14373 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA14363 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA08214; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:09:47 -0500 Date: 20 Dec 95 11:08:08 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: vtx: Don't worry 'bout Dennis Message-ID: <951220160807_72240.1256_EHB162-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; Martin Sevior >INTERNET:msevior kosal0.triumf.ca Poor Martin accidentally posted his private e-mail on Vortex-L, and now he is worried we will all hassle Dennis Cravens, which will make Dennis ornery and uncooperative. And he is fretting that we will broadcast Dennis's phone number everywhere. Not to worry! I have already done that. When people ask me for names, addresses and phone numbers, I always hand them out. I have handed out Dennis's address to dozens of people. I sign my press releases with my address and home phone number too. People have seldom abused that information. We are all busy and we all know what it is like trying to do these experiments, so I do not think any reader of this forum will bother Dennis. As Mark Hugo put it "I think all the people on this web are sharp enough to understand this." When Dennis is working too hard he can get himself into a snit. He'll throw papers around and act like a two-year-old. But let us not be too worried about his delicate sensibilities. He is no prima donna scientist -- he is a good old boy from Texas. An engineering type. I have known him for years. He'll be ornery and prickly and snappish today and happy as a clam tomorrow. Just stay out of his way and don't ask stupid questions, and you will get along fine. Dennis goes to great lengths to avoid the CF debates and stupid questions. That is why he has no e-mail. It took him a long time to get a fax machine as I recall. I am surprised he has a phone in his lab. I'll bet he leaves it disconnected frequently. I would! Why not? Electronic communications are supposed to be man's servant, not his master. When a machine starts to cause more trouble than convenience, I toss it out. Dennis gets upset with me because I am always asking stupid questions and probing questions. On the other hand I never ask him if his 6-watt power supply can deliver 1300 watts, and I just sent him a cute Christmas card so I am sure all is forgiven. As Marin wrote: "Things are very delicate." Yes, but not with Dennis. It is Jim Reding and the others at CETI who must be handled with kid gloves, not Dennis. Be square with him and you'll get along famously. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 08:35:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA16322 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA16282 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA06099; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:20:02 -0500 Date: 20 Dec 95 11:15:42 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Takahashi favorable to demo Message-ID: <951220161541_76570.2270_FHU45-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: I have just received a fax from Takeo Sawai, Y. Takahashi's representative at Sciex(UK). In part, it states: "I have just had a phone call today from the Royal Institutions, where Faraday had a laboratory, asking us to provide the SGM and YT Magnet for the evaluations. I do believe this is The Place to announce Takahashi's inventions when appropriate and I will let you have evaluation reports just before the anouncement." I assume that Norman Horwood is responsible for getting this ball rolling. Good work, Norman! I hope that these evaluations can be done as soon as possible. Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technnology Cold Fusion Technology P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Fax: 603-224-5975 Phone: 603-228-4516 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 08:53:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA19425 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19411 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuyk26703; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19258; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:36:22 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 665934080095354FEPRI; 20 Dec 1995 08:34:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Dec 1995 08:34:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Don't worry 'bout Dennis To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/20/95 08:34:57 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/20/95 08:26 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Don't worry 'bout Dennis As USUAL, Jed has hit the nail on the head. I was struggling trying to figure out how to let people know that if you just "look at the surface" you'll get one feeling about Dennis, but if you "get to know him", you'll get another. I will SECOND the motion that Dennis is down to Earth, practical, and get's where he needs to be when he needs to be there. Anyone needing to feel that out need just read my letter about the March work I did in Texas at CETI with Dennis, and find out about the "cross talk" problem. Dennis was fit to be TIED! He hadn't seen that before! But if you read the previous IE magazine, you will see what Dennis did before ICCF5 to ELIMINATE that problem, following Leon and my suggestions to a letter. (Again, NO-prima dona Dennis!). It should be noted that there probably was good reason for Dennis to be frustrated. It just took a while for the LiSO4 to soak through the epoxy he had on the TC's and thermisters, and INDEED he had not seen the electrical cross talk while he was working with the device. - Again, GOOD LUCK Scott and Martin: Should any of your team get lost in NM, we'll send a search party. (In June) MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 12:41:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA29266 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com ([206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA29255 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06299 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:23:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199512202023.AA06299 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:23:56 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: disk Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 15:23:15 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Miley read my disk. He likes it. He said it was neat. How do you like that? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 13:15:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA22805 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22577 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23707 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:46:02 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:48:55 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: magnets Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > An electron in a close >nucleus approach would beaccelerated toward the nucleus, thus would be >prone to emit a high energy photon. Having done so, the photon could be >momentarily locked ion close vicinity to the nucleus, thus creating for an >extended duration the desired strong field gradient with the nucleus. [snip] The above should read: An electron in a close nucleus approach would be accelerated toward the nucleus, thus would be prone to emit a high energy photon. Having done so, the electron could be momentarily locked in close vicinity to the nucleus, thus creating for an extended duration the desired strong field gradient with the nucleus. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 13:28:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA08851 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA08820 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzuzd10333; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15456; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:18:25 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 330017130095354FEPRI; 20 Dec 1995 13:16:13 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Dec 1995 13:16:13 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: disk To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/20/95 13:16:58 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/20/95 12:41 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: disk Indeed Frank! Miley's response would probably be more significant than mine. I'm kind of a "nuts and bolts" type, log buring/data gathering simple minded individual. I don't do my own taxes, if that gives you a clue. Well, after the publication of the experimental stuff in Fusion Tech, I think they may be up to publishing a little Frank Z. (pe) theory! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 14:06:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA15142 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA15127 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-166.austin.eden.com (net-1-154.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.154]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id PAA10078 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:54:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:54:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512202154.PAA10078 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Ni balls in our cell X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Well, sports fans, it's a good thing I'm going to visit Cravens with Martin...this thing on my bench is not doing much at all. The Ni balls are in the cell and have been running all day with no detectable delta-T other than that expected from the electrolysis power. I've used my aux heater to raise the electrolyte temp up from 22 C to around 40 C and I watched it all the way....no sign of life. I've even tried raising the electrolysis power to a rather high 6 watts (12 volts and .5 amps) and still see no signs of excess heat. I may have learned something, however: There is no evidence of electrolysis activity within the bed of little Ni balls (my cell is transparent). All the bubbling takes place on the upper side of the balls in only the upper layer of balls (i.e those balls closest to the anode). This says to me that the bed of Ni balls is so conductive that the rest of the balls are just like part of the wire that leads into the cell. In other words there's no voltage gradient across the bed. I wonder if the thinness of the CETI coatings is deliberate...so as to create electrical resistance in the bed so there'll be a voltage gradient across the bed. I'm also inclined to try the fluidized bed idea with these little Ni balls. BTW, these balls are magnetizable. If you expose them to a magnet, they then stick together! I'm trying a strong magnet against the side of the cell right now. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:02:10 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA04812 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04790 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tSYHf-0005QXC; Wed, 20 Dec 95 17:50 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:50:54 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: <199512202154.PAA10078 natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Dec 20, 95 03:54:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Well, sports fans, it's a good thing I'm going to visit Cravens with > Martin...this thing on my bench is not doing much at all. You might want to take some photos of your lab setup to show Dennis. Maybe he will be impressed and consider you a kindred spirit. > I may have learned something, however: There is no evidence of electrolysis > activity within the bed of little Ni balls (my cell is transparent). All > the bubbling takes place on the upper side of the balls in only the upper > layer of balls (i.e those balls closest to the anode). This says to me that > the bed of Ni balls is so conductive that the rest of the balls are just > like part of the wire that leads into the cell. In other words there's no > voltage gradient across the bed. Surprise surprise. :-) > I wonder if the thinness of the CETI > coatings is deliberate...so as to create electrical resistance in the bed so > there'll be a voltage gradient across the bed. I dunno about that, seems unlikely. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:07:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA05748 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA05734 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA13620; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:55:51 -0500 Date: 20 Dec 95 18:53:57 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Takahashi favorable to demo Message-ID: <951220235356_100060.173_JHB90-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene, >> "I have just had a phone call today from the Royal Institutions, where Faraday had a laboratory, asking us to provide the SGM and YT Magnet for the evaluations. I do believe this is The Place to announce Takahashi's inventions when appropriate and I will let you have evaluation reports just before the anouncement." I assume that Norman Horwood is responsible for getting this ball rolling. << Sheeezz fellers! I still have to persuade the RI to take on the testing. All I asked Sawai was whether he would allow them to do it, and he was uncertain whether to use them or his friendly prof. Norton. I happen to be on friendly terms with the guy who runs their lab, a Dr Bryson Gore who is relatively young, so I will rapidly get him up to speed on this job in the expectation that Sawai will produce the goods in Feb. The next RI discourse is on 26 Jan when their term starts, so Dr Gore is unlikely to be available until then. It might be a bit of a rush to get any testing started by Feb. but I'll do my best. I think the best chance for fast results would be to test the magnets, not the motor which would need a dynamometer made to fit, so if Gene can push that angle for me it would help. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 00:40:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA22941 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA22902 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA25677 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:25:24 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:28:04 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: magne Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >Horrace..I think you have described the process of electron capture. > > > Frank Znidarsic I don't think so. Electron capture is a weak force event. The cross sectional area (volume) for such an event is too small to be anything but a very unlikely outcome. By getting tied to a nucleus the electron's quantum waveform will expand until tunneling out is inevitable, and thus should happen quickly. The expanded waveform itself provides a diminished probability of electron capture. The center of mass or center of charge may be near the nucleus, but the majority of the psi^2 probability distribution is far away from the nucleus if the relative velocity of the electron is slow. This is the source of the energy for my hypothesis, call it ZPE or whatever. In addition, an extreme electrostatic force of an electron near the nucleus may be able to separate e-,e+ pairs generated by vacuum fluctuations. I would expect the e+ to form a self orbiting pair with the Partial orbital electron or the paired e-, ultimately self annihilating and forming gammas. The remaining electron would carry on the process. I think the expanding waveform outcome is the most likely outcome, and answers many questions about CF, like lack of ash or signatures, what appears to be randomness of ignition, and heat after death. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 00:51:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA24187 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA24167 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA25717 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:37:40 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:40:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > In other words there's no >voltage gradient across the bed. I wonder if the thinness of the CETI >coatings is deliberate...so as to create electrical resistance in the bed so >there'll be a voltage gradient across the bed. > >I'm also inclined to try the fluidized bed idea with these little Ni balls. > >BTW, these balls are magnetizable. If you expose them to a magnet, they >then stick together! > >I'm trying a strong magnet against the side of the cell right now. > >Scott Little Converting the DC to HF pulsed DC would push the current out to the surface of the beads. I understand this also increases the loading efficiency. Re magnets: great! However, there is not likely to be an effect without successful loading of the beads. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 02:58:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA03828 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 02:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA03802 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 02:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA17580; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:42:33 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:42:32 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell In-Reply-To: <199512202154.PAA10078 natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: [...] > I may have learned something, however: There is no evidence of electrolysis > activity within the bed of little Ni balls (my cell is transparent). All > the bubbling takes place on the upper side of the balls in only the upper > layer of balls (i.e those balls closest to the anode). This says to me that > the bed of Ni balls is so conductive that the rest of the balls are just > like part of the wire that leads into the cell. In other words there's no > voltage gradient across the bed. I wonder if the thinness of the CETI > coatings is deliberate...so as to create electrical resistance in the bed so > there'll be a voltage gradient across the bed. This would be the opposite of what you want, it would make things worse. You can't help getting an increasing iR drop along the electrolyte, and if you have one along the bead bed, you're worse off still. What is happening is that the overpotential is greatest near the anode, and tapers off, due to iR losses as you get further away. The bed of beads should be (and likely is) all at one potential. To minimise iR drop along the electrolyte, the only thing you can do is to increase the electrolyte concentration. There cannot be anything holy about 0.1 M or 1M, or whatever the other people use. I'd make it, say, 95% saturated (not 100% or you risk the formation of crystals, which do not conduct). On the other hand, if you have hydrogen bubbling merrily at one end, and are not getting any excess heat, you probably won't get it if the whole bed is bubbling. The purists will say, you need exactly the same sort of beads as CETI uses. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:46:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA11348 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA11283 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA13273; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:24:27 -0500 Date: 21 Dec 95 11:16:45 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Simple CETI Sanity Test: run the pump Message-ID: <951221161645_72240.1256_EHB165-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I have posted various messages here expressing my disgruntled attitude towards CETI and their demonstration apparatus. I feel they could have done a better job. I was somewhat disappointed by the quality of the calorimeter and more so by the booth display and literature. But I do not want to give the impression that I have any doubt about the results. I am quite sure the device did produce massive excess heat. Perhaps that message has been obscured by my discussions of business strategy, the failed control cell, and so on. Let me reiterate this: viewed as a simple presence or absence test, the Power-Gen demonstration constituted overwhelming and undeniable proof of massive excess heat. The flow calorimetry proves this beyond question, but so does a form of rough-and-ready static calorimetry that anyone can perform with an aquarium pump. To put it as simply as I can, when you circulate water in a closed loop with an off-the-shelf aquarium pump & filter, it does not raise the water temperature 10 or 15 degrees above ambient. If aquarium pumps raised the water temperature that much they would invariably kill the fish. I have stated that the calorimeter components consumed 85 watts. This does not mean that anything like 85 watts of heating or mechanical pump motion was delivered to the water. The pump motor is rated 50 watts at full load. The other 35 watts consumed by the calorimeter go into the power supplies, which are in a Lucite plastic box a foot away from the water, and the cooling fan. The motor is air cooled. It is outside the water tank, albeit below it. I do not see how it could deliver more than 20 to 25 watts to the water, in the form of stirring and waste heat. ~25 watts is the *total power* delivered to calorimeter from all sources. Even when the CF is turned on as high as it will go, it adds no more than 1.5 watts. The power supplies for the cell are rated at 6.3 watts maximum (9 volts, 700 milliamps). It is very easy to prove that the pump motor does not raise the water temperature measurably. All you have to do is turn on the pump, leave everything else off, and let the water circulate for an hour or two. I think it would be a good idea for Martin and Scott to do this, although not on the first day. At first you want to see the cell work! I would be surprised if the pump running alone raised the temperature even 1 deg C above ambient. As I said (and it bears repeating!) this is an ordinary, off-the-shelf Magnum brand aquarium pump. It is designed to filter and clean the water, not to heat it up drastically. Yet while the CF cell was running I observed the water temperature in the reservoir was between 32 and 35 degrees C, roughly 15 degrees above ambient. There is no way an aquarium pump will do that. With only ~25 watts input, in order to raise the temperature to that extent you would have to have a heavily insulated reservoir and pipes. Frankly, I doubt you could do it with ordinary off-the-shelf materials. Furthermore, the entire plastic surface of the reservoir was palpably hot, and the air being blown out by the fan on top was noticeably warm too. I did not measure the surface temperature or fan air temperature, but I can make some rough comparisons. The reservoir is a cylinder approximately 14 cm in diameter, 22 cm high, for a total surface area of 967 cm^2. (The volume = pi*r^2*h = 3.4 liters, but there is lots of stuff like the filter crammed in there) The water is pumped through a long length of plastic pipe, which is mostly 3/8ths inch Tygon R3603. I don't know how long it is, but it is coiled up and I suppose it must be a couple of meters, with considerable surface area. I observed the water in the inlet was 1.1 to 1.5 deg C cooler than the reservoir, which means, by the way, that the fan and cooling tower arrangement must be removing roughly 70 watts. The water in the outlet pipe was 8 to 15 degrees hotter than the inlet, so it cooled down much more rapidly. Some people over on s.p.f. have raised a point worth considering: a liter of coffee in a pot can be kept quite warm (about 70 deg C) with a 100 watt hot plate heater directly underneath it. That is true, but the comparison fails for several reasons: the coffee pot is better insulated than the aquarium pump reservoir, by design; it holds 4/10ths of the water in the aquarium pump; it has no 3.5 watt IMC Pewee Boxer fan blowing air against it; and the total surface area of the pot is much smaller than that of the aquarium pump plus tube arrangement. Furthermore, we are only putting in ~25 watts, about 1/4th of the input into the coffee pot. I would like to review a basic point about calorimetry, which confuses many readers. People -- even scientists -- sometimes loosely declare that such-and-such a power level is bound to make water go up to a certain temperature. This is a gigantic mistake, often repeated in discussions of calorimetry. You cannot predict what the water temperature will do in response to a given power level unless you know three things: 1. The total mass and specific heat of water; 2. the heat transfer coefficient of the container; 3. The surface area of the container. The terminal temperature of the fluid in the container depends on the balance between the energy added to the water by the heat source, and the energy lost out the sides of the container into the environment. The *initial temperature rise curve* that you see when you first turn on the power source, when the water temperature is close to ambient, can be used to estimate output power. This is what Griggs and I did in tests of his device, and what Gene and Scott did while testing the Potapov device. That is a different story. The fluid temperature inside a static calorimeter that has reached a stable, terminal temperature in response to fixed power input is function of the three parameters listed above. You cannot predict in advance what it will be unless you know a great deal about the container material's heat transfer coefficient. Normally, the only way to find out is to calibrate. You get very different values depending on the materials. To put it simply, when you put a power source under water inside a container, you cannot guess how hot the water will get. Here is an experiment you should NOT try at home. Take a small Thermos bottle (a Dewar enclosed in a plastic shell). Fill the thermos with a half-liter of water, submerge a resistor in it (a joule heater), and put the top back on tightly as you can around the wires. If you run the heater at around 5 watts, you will bring the water to boil after a while. Of course if you submerge that 5-watt heater in half-liter coffee pot, or a 2 liter plastic pump reservoir, the water temperature will hardly go up at all. It would be like putting your coffee pot on a 5 watt hotplate, which is roughly as hot as two Christmas tree lights, side by side. By the way, you cannot use the initial heating curve of the CETI test device to compute the excess heat (the way Griggs, Mallove, Little and I did with other machines). The CETI device itself takes a while to warm up, the reaction turns on slowly, so the function would be too complex. Also, the CETI device, like all metal-in-hydrogen CF devices, is strongly affected by the fluid temperature. There is positive feedback between the CF reaction and the warming fluid. That is why they use the auxiliary heaters when they first turn on the calorimeter. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 11:18:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA08414 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA08330 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26881 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:02:14 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:04:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > >[...] >> I may have learned something, however: There is no evidence of electrolysis >> activity within the bed of little Ni balls (my cell is transparent). All >> the bubbling takes place on the upper side of the balls in only the upper >> layer of balls (i.e those balls closest to the anode). This says to me that >> the bed of Ni balls is so conductive that the rest of the balls are just >> like part of the wire that leads into the cell. In other words there's no >> voltage gradient across the bed. I wonder if the thinness of the CETI >> coatings is deliberate...so as to create electrical resistance in the bed so >> there'll be a voltage gradient across the bed. > >This would be the opposite of what you want, it would make things worse. You >can't help getting an increasing iR drop along the electrolyte, and if you >have one along the bead bed, you're worse off still. What is happening is >that the overpotential is greatest near the anode, and tapers off, due to iR >losses as you get further away. The bed of beads should be (and likely is) >all at one potential. To minimise iR drop along the electrolyte, the only >thing you can do is to increase the electrolyte concentration. There >cannot be anything holy about 0.1 M or 1M, or whatever the other people >use. I'd make it, say, 95% saturated (not 100% or you risk the formation >of crystals, which do not conduct). On the other hand, if you have >hydrogen bubbling merrily at one end, and are not getting any excess >heat, you probably won't get it if the whole bed is bubbling. The purists >will say, you need exactly the same sort of beads as CETI uses. > >-- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk If the IR drop through the electrode exceeded the IR drop of the electrolyte, then the current through the end of the cathode near the anode would be less than the current through the opposite end. Therefore, a sufficient bead resistance, in relation to electolyte resistance, would accomplish the desired effect. Reducing electrolyte resistance would help toward this goal, but only if the beads have adequate resistance. Atlernatively, to get around the problem, you could build a cell in vertical layers, with anode and cathode layers separated by membranes, or maybe just run the anode up the center of the cell with a separating membrane, creating a coaxial cell. However, as Dieter says, if the present upper layer beads aren't producing heat, there is no reason to believe the others will. Something needs to be changed in regard to what is happening in the beads where electrolysis *is* happening. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:26:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06178 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA06152 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA21697; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:55:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:55:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell In-Reply-To: <199512202154.PAA10078 natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > BTW, these balls are magnetizable. If you expose them to a magnet, they > then stick together! Hey, try shoving a magnet into a container of nickel balls, and you should see interesting 3D field lines growing like hair from the end of the magnet! (suggestion: put the magnet in a baggie to ease the removal of the mass of balls from the pole end) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 11:44:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA13602 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA13588 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA19698 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:33:24 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA25005; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:33:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:33:23 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199512211933.OAA25005 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: (jlogajan@mirage.skypoint.com) Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > I may have learned something, however: There is no evidence of electrolysis > activity within the bed of little Ni balls (my cell is transparent). All > the bubbling takes place on the upper side of the balls in only the upper > layer of balls (i.e those balls closest to the anode). This says to me that > the bed of Ni balls is so conductive that the rest of the balls are just > like part of the wire that leads into the cell. In other words there's no > voltage gradient across the bed. How was the Powergen demo set up? It may be that the pump or gravity was used to get the evolved H2 to flow through the bed. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 11:52:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA17822 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA17719 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvcd13447; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22259; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:58:33 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 680358080095355FEPRI; 21 Dec 1995 08:58:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 21 Dec 1995 08:58:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Simple CETI Sanity Test: run the pump To: vortex-l eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/21/95 08:58:02 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/21/95 08:45 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Simple CETI Sanity Test: run the pump As usual, Jed has done a first rate "reality" job. What really worries me Jed, is all the people who have "Phd's" who couldn't calculate +/- 20 or 30% the thermal energy in a system, if their LIVES depended upon it. Oh well, as has been said before, "There will be pundits telling us CF is nonsense, when 1/2 the vehicals on the road are CF powered." MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:09:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA26091 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA26057 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA27173 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:54:38 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:57:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Ni balls in our cell Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just a wild idea for a cathode: Use 0.5 mm automatic pencil lead. Just break it up and put it in the cell! I measured the resistance at 1.3 ohms per 6 cm, or .22 ohms/cm. This is maybe pretty low for what you want. The carbon surface would pretty quickly bind to hydrogen, maybe increasing the surface resistance. It would be interresting to plate some graphite with CETI type coatings. This brings up an interresting point. There are a practically unlimited nunber of degrees of freedom here. Maybe a good product for the market place at this time is just basic apparatus: a pump, filter, cell, tubing, power supply, electrolyte cooling device, perheater, calibration heater, instrumentation, etc. If enough people have the basic apparatus it could result in a significant and immediate respose to any new product, like beads, or idea to try. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 03:45:00 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA11284 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus (root [193.226.40.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA11199 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nessie by zeus with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tT5ik-0003w1C; Fri, 22 Dec 95 13:33 GMT+0200 Received: by nessie (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tT5jD-000Y3iC; Fri, 22 Dec 95 13:33 GMT+0200 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:33:34 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: nuclear? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexers, My e-mail was out for some 10 days and I have received your postings with great delay. There are over 100 messages to be processed. There have been intense discussions about the strategy of CETI, inter alia if they will manufacture and sell/lend cells for independent testing and connected to this if they are not sufficiently open etc. In my opinion they have problems with the quality and endurance of the beads. Being a polymer chemist, my experience suggests that polystyrene (reticulated with divinyl benzene) is not the ideal material for heaters in commercial use; the beads as such will be quite rapidly destroyed at, say 50-80 deg Celsius. The metal layers just add to this problem, and you cannot avoid traces of monomers in the beads. These are purely technical problems and will be solved beyond any doubt. It's a lot of time consuming work. The device is not ready yet, I believe. An other aspect of the problem is very disturbing, there are some basic purely scientific aspects and questions, which are of outmost importance for our field and have no know-how value. It's the problem of tests: nickel, isotopic analysis before and after long tests, use of pure deuteriumless water, Li-6 vs Li-7, all essential for getting a first answer to the question of the nature of the heat-producing reaction. It is impossible to get an answer to all these technically innocent or at least indifferent questions. Ron and I have tried a lot, I sent a fax to James Patterson and e-mails to George Miley without the slightest success. It would be a great step forward if we know: THE SOURCE OF HEAT IS NUCLEAR OR NOT. I shall be very indebted if somebody could help. Warmest thanks to my friends who have sent me information on the spare line when I had limiyed access to the Cyberspace! MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL, FRIENDS! Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 08:08:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA03128 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 07:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA03105 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 07:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA01646 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:13:46 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 06:57:08 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Visit to NM. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Below is an extract of an exchange on s.p.f. It would be very meaningful to replace the active cell with a 1000 W heater of some kind and take some measurements. Maybe a hotplate with heat exchanger made of a pot of water with a coil of tubing carrying electrolyte running through it? Sould take about an hour once built, true? Begin quote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally-From: bsulliva sky.net (Bob Sullivan) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: Experimental evidence rules out 1300 watts from CETI demo Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 00:33:06 GMT Organization: SkyNET Online In article <4bccgc$fmk ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, pstowe ix.netcom.com(Paul Stowe) wrote: [snip] >If you >realy want to test the validity of the claim, place a resistance heater >of the same wattage in an exact replica of the CETI cell, operate it, >and measure the bulk temperature of the water! Excellent suggestion for the CETI/ENECO folks! That's something that any competent scientist would do on his own before going public with claims of "new" science. Why haven't they done it? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - End quote. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 10:47:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA24952 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA24909 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-130.austin.eden.com (net-1-130.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.130]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA23495 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:37:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:37:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512221837.MAA23495 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Visit to NM. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Below is an extract of an exchange on s.p.f. It would be very meaningful >to replace the active cell with a 1000 W heater of some kind and take some >measurements. Maybe a hotplate with heat exchanger made of a pot of water >with a coil of tubing carrying electrolyte running through it? Sould take >about an hour once built, true? Hey Martin, this sounds like a good idea. I can make such a thing and bring it along with us. Basically, it'll be an immersion heating element fixed in the center of a tube the same size and shape as the CETI cell. We can use a variac to power the thing and DVM's to get AC voltage and current for the input power. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 10:55:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA26543 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA26520 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-130.austin.eden.com (net-1-130.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.130]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA24043 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:46:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:46:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512221846.MAA24043 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter said: >It would be a great step forward if we know: >THE SOURCE OF HEAT IS NUCLEAR OR NOT. >I shall be very indebted if somebody could help. Peter, I believe that some of the groups investigating the CETI cell are specifically looking for nuclear signatures (e.g. various radiations) and have observed absolutely nothing coming out of cells that are making a few watts of excess heat. (Vortexians, correct me if I'm wrong here) This leaves the miraculous Radiationless Nuclear Process as the only remaining chance for the effect to be nuclear. True, nature is full of miracles...but somehow, this one feels wrong to me. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 11:35:10 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA03511 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA03467 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.67] ([204.57.193.67]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA02152 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:44:37 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:27:55 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Visit to NM. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Hey Martin, this sounds like a good idea. I can make such a thing and bring >it along with us. Basically, it'll be an immersion heating element fixed in >the center of a tube the same size and shape as the CETI cell. We can use a >variac to power the thing and DVM's to get AC voltage and current for the >input power. It must be great to have stuff like that around. If it isn't really cheap or surplus or junk I don't have it. We have no industrial surplus stores in Alaska, so I really envy people who live near aircraft munufacturers, etc. I guess that's why I think in terms of pots and pans and hotplates with rheostats. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 14:11:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA26793 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca ([142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA26781 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA09874; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:59:48 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9512222159.AA09874 kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Simple CETI Sanity Test: run the pump To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:59:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <951221161645_72240.1256_EHB165-1 CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Dec 21, 95 11:16:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Writes: > > It is very easy to prove that the pump motor does not raise the water > temperature measurably. All you have to do is turn on the pump, leave > everything else off, and let the water circulate for an hour or two. I think > it would be a good idea for Martin and Scott to do this, although not on the > first day. At first you want to see the cell work! I would be surprised if the > pump running alone raised the temperature even 1 deg C above ambient. As I > said (and it bears repeating!) this is an ordinary, off-the-shelf Magnum brand > aquarium pump. It is designed to filter and clean the water, not to heat it up > drastically. Yet while the CF cell was running I observed the water > temperature in the reservoir was between 32 and 35 degrees C, roughly 15 > degrees above ambient. There is no way an aquarium pump will do that. With > only ~25 watts input, in order to raise the temperature to that extent you > would have to have a heavily insulated reservoir and pipes. Frankly, I doubt > you could do it with ordinary off-the-shelf materials. > Scott and I plan to do this. I plan to take photos of the thermister readings. In the end it will go into WWW document. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 16:34:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA16595 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA16586 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tTHlk-0005PkC; Fri, 22 Dec 95 18:25 CST Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: Visit to NM. To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:25:00 -0600 (CST) From: "John Logajan" In-Reply-To: from "Horace Heffner" at Dec 22, 95 10:27:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > > Basically, it'll be an immersion heating element > > It must be great to have stuff like that around. If it isn't really cheap > or surplus or junk I don't have it. We have no industrial surplus stores > in Alaska Hardware stores (in these parts) carry electrical water heater replacement elements. I have a 120V 1500W one that I picked up retail for about $10. There are 240V versions with higher power ratings, but about the same price. I used mine two years ago when I was checking out the Thermacore calibration methods. Since it was 10 ohms, I was able to get about 130W out of it using my 35V DC power supply. A Variac would have worked too, but it was just easier for me to PC monitor lower (and isolated) DC voltages and currents. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 19:17:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA05284 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05271 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA14620; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:10:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24394; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:06:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:06:56 -0500 From: mica world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199512230306.AA24394 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Cold Fusion Times web site Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Information for Newbies on Cold Fusion ------------------------------------------------- December 22, 1995 The COLD FUSION TIMES, a periodical dedicated to the material science, nuclear physics, and engineering aspects of solid state fusion has a home page, which includes information on the subject. http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 15:05:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA02866 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA02852 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA17984; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:57:20 -0500 Date: 23 Dec 95 17:54:39 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Cold Fusion/New Energy Symposium - 1/20/96 Message-ID: <951223225438_76570.2270_FHU45-4 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ****************************************************************************** *** COLD FUSION / NEW ENERGY SYMPOSIUM *** Saturday, January 20, 1996 8:00 a.m. to 5:30 p.m From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 15:30:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA04970 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA04959 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA10036; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:22:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:22:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Cold Fusion/New Energy Symposium - 1/20/96 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > INFINITE ENERGY Magazine of Concord, New Hampshire will sponsor an all-day > Cold Fusion/New Energy Symposium on January 20, 1996 at the Cambridge > Marriott Hotel in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The meeting will feature > speakers, video presentations, and discussions about the science, > technology, and commercial developments in the rapidly growing cold > fusion and new energy field. Ah, too bad no "speech to text converter" exists, or we could play the contents of the talks directly onto IRC in realtime. There's "internet phone," but I doubt that most of us are equipped to receive audio. Hey Gene, any chance of setting up *some* kind of internet "activity" at the conference? There's a very slight possibility I could talk friends from Boston into setting up a Netscape kiosk there for the event. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 16:21:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA09643 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA09629 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-3.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-3.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.3]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA15896 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:11:25 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512240011.LAA15896 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:15:56 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 Dec 95 at 12:46, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > Peter, I believe that some of the groups investigating the CETI cell are > specifically looking for nuclear signatures (e.g. various radiations) and > have observed absolutely nothing coming out of cells that are making a few > watts of excess heat. (Vortexians, correct me if I'm wrong here) > > This leaves the miraculous Radiationless Nuclear Process as the only > remaining chance for the effect to be nuclear. True, nature is full of > miracles...but somehow, this one feels wrong to me. The electron cluster assisted fusion process that I proposed a while ago could result in the production of stable isotopes, with low energy x-rays as the only form of radiation. If 6 keV x-rays were produced, then only 1 in 10^11 would make it through 1 cm of water. This may well explain why no radiation is detected. The energy of the x-rays would depend at least partially on the number of electrons in a cluster. Furthermore, the interface between two different metals may be the perfect "breeding ground" for such clusters, especially if there is a high density current running along it. The tell-tale sign of this process would be isotopes resulting from proton addition and electron capture. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 20:31:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA00611 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 20:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA00593 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 20:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA13866; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:22:30 -0500 Date: 23 Dec 95 23:17:39 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: The old fashioned way.. Message-ID: <951224041739_76570.2270_FHU57-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill writes... "Hey Gene, any chance of setting up *some* kind of internet "activity" at the conference? There's a very slight possibility I could talk friends from Boston into setting up a Netscape kiosk there for the event." I think we'll just do it the old fashioned way, maybe with some tapes for later. But if you have high tech whiz kids who could do something different, I wouldn't object.. Gene From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 11:27:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA26262 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA26254 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id LAA26529; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:21:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:21:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: CETI cell (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 12:30:53 From: Enache Dorin To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: CETI cell Hello Could someone to help me with more info about CETI cell experiment! Many Thanks. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 11:49:00 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA27750 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA27742 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.73] ([204.57.193.73]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA06892 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:03:45 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 10:46:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Educational Cell Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Perhaps some thought should be given to an educational package not using CETI/PPC technology. Maybe it is possible to find a method not as good, but which demonstrates feasibility. From s.p.f archives I read one of Jed's summaries of ICCF3 mentioning pretty good success by Notoya and Mills. That was with K2CO3 as an electrolyte I think. Did those things turn out to be non-reproducible? Does anyone know what happened regarding H/Ni systems investigated by Notoya or Mills? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 12:35:08 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA01188 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 12:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA01181 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 12:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA03050; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 12:30:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 12:30:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: CETI public trading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I may have asked about this long ago here, but does CETI have public stock offerings? I'm tempted... .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 14:27:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA09097 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 14:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA09089 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 14:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA28316; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 17:21:06 -0500 Date: 24 Dec 95 17:18:03 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI public offerings? Message-ID: <951224221802_76570.2270_FHU54-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, CETI has no public offerings -- it is a privately held company. However, the multi-billion dollar U.S. company that is most likely to invest in CETI first (if they are not already aboard, signed, and sealed) certainly *is* a publicly-traded company. One person who found out about that company immediately went out and bought 1,000 shares on the prospect that if that company made its obligatory announcement, its stock would soar. Who knows what would happen?! NO! -- I will NOT tell anyone here the name of that company. You *may* find out in due course. Speculate away! Oh yes, something else: Cravens has told me repeatedly that he intends to make a small vehicle ASAP using the CETI process. He would create steam, drive a turbine, and then drive his little rig across the U.S. from New Mexico to Washington, D.C. He'd then park the beast in front of the U.S. Patent Office -- seriously -- and go in to straighten out those wayward boys -- assuming those boys were back from their paid furlough. I personally would like to see the car then driven up to Princeton outside the doomed tokamak, where it would then depart for MIT's equally doomed tokamak. Hot fusioneer Petrasso of MIT, Frank Close's buddy, said in Popular Science back in 1993, "I suppose I'd believe it if they drove a car up from New Jersey." Whether Petrasso would believe after such a drive, is unclear. I note that Frank Close has bet his mortgage (other people's money) on the lack of reality of all over unity processes. We'll see if that bet gets fulfilled -- unlikely. Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technnology Cold Fusion Technology P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Fax: 603-224-5975 Phone: 603-228-4516 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 19:47:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA27759 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 19:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA27751 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 19:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.66] ([204.57.193.66]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA07894 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 21:01:25 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 18:43:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI public offerings? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] >Oh yes, something else: Cravens has told me repeatedly that he intends to make >a small vehicle ASAP using the CETI process. He would create steam, drive a >turbine, and then drive his little rig across the U.S. from New Mexico to >Washington, D.C. He'd then park the beast in front of the U.S. Patent Office >-- seriously -- and go in to straighten out those wayward boys -- assuming >those boys were back from their paid furlough. > [snip] >Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! Happy Holidays to all! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From fznidarsic gpu.com Mon Dec 25 08:07:56 1995 Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA27432 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 08:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05377 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for BILLB MAIL.ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:07:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199512251607.AA05377 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:07:38 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: BILLB MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: disk Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 11:07:00 EST Status: RO X-Status: Bill Let's do it. Can you work on commission? The disk sells for about fifteen dollars. Of that you keep 1/2. I can send you a box on commission The work is getting better all of the time. The latest version contains a color picture of me, Miley and Jed. Its nice. Miley liked it. I knew I did someting good..and now Miley thinks so to..See my add in Infinite ener -> BILLB MAIL.ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:05:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser Subject: Re: vtx: disk In-Reply-To: <199512202023.AA06299 power.gpu.com> Hi Frank. Got your check, thanks! I'm putting "classified" ads on Weird Science. Got an ad for your disk, or a website already up? I can put it on my page. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page PS Bill its about time you started looking at the commercial aspects of yo u web. I have tapes of ball lightning experiments. Lectures at university of ZPE a lot of stuff. I want to market the material. You and I could do well. Send me your mailing address. I will send you a sample disk. You p ut the add I will send you a box of 20. Frank From fznidarsic gpu.com Mon Dec 25 08:10:26 1995 Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA27528 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 08:10:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04875 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:10:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199512251610.AA04875 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:10:09 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: nucle Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 11:09:30 EST Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L-OWNER ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:15:56 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com On 22 Dec 95 at 12:46, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > Peter, I believe that some of the groups investigating the CETI cell are > specifically looking for nuclear signatures (e.g. various radiations) and > have observed absolutely nothing coming out of cells that are making a few > watts of excess heat. (Vortexians, correct me if I'm wrong here) > > This leaves the miraculous Radiationless Nuclear Process as the only > remaining chance for the effect to be nuclear. True, nature is full of > miracles...but somehow, this one feels wrong to me. The electron cluster assisted fusion process that I proposed a while ago could result in the production of stable isotopes, with low energy x-rays as the only form of radiation. If 6 keV x-rays were produced, then only 1 in 10^11 would make it through 1 cm of water. This may well explain why no radiation is detected. The energy of the x-rays would depend at least partially on the number of electrons in a cluster. Furthermore, the interface between two different metals may be the perfect "breeding ground" for such clusters, especially if there is a high density current running along it. The tell-tale sign of this process would be isotopes resulting from proton addition and electron capture. I talked to Miley about this. He agrees but calcultates the rate of fusio n produced by such a process would be much to low to account for the amount of energy. Miley is now looking at ZPE. A big step for a hot fusion leader. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 10:16:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA03889 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 10:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA03879 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 10:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 13:05:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199512251805.AA04996 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 13:05:29 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: warning Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 13:04:50 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 There has been a lot of talk about a big company that has bought into this field. I don't know who they are and I don't want to know. Such knowledge is inside information. If you purchace stocks based on inside information, information that is not avaliable to all stock holders, its a violation of the Securities and Exchange act. That's what White Water is all about. Do yourself and Bill a favor. Do not post inside information on this web. This is my employers E-mail. Its monitored by a spy. Anyone interested in my personal business...Like my book on a disk...should write to me at home at fznidarsic aol.com. I'm at home now..I can access my GPU mail from home also. I must keep my own little business seperate from my work. Merry Christmas to you all. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 16:58:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA25163 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA25156 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvsd09794; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 19:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17333; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:50:00 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 402749160095359FEPRI; 25 Dec 1995 16:49:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 25 Dec 1995 16:49:16 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: warning To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/25/95 16:49:26 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/25/95 10:15 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: warning I would have to disagree with Frank. (Sorry Frank!) Making purchases of M or G or P or K stock based on someone saying here, (particularily someone NOT employ ed by M, P, G, K etc.) that this company is on to something big---is NOT classi c insider trading. In point of fact, as a PERSONAL protection, anyone who says, "It would be a good idea to buy X, or Y or Z" stock, had best say, "I From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 17:03:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA25388 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA25381 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvsd09936; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 19:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19680; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:55:00 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 975053160095359FEPRI; 25 Dec 1995 16:53:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 25 Dec 1995 16:53:16 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: warning To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/25/95 16:53:50 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/25/95 10:15 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: warning Sorry about the 1/2 message, bumped the wrong key again.... Getting back, to phrasing a "recommendation". Saying that you, yourself would consider this or that stock a good buy, is the safest thing you can say. Particularily if you HAVE bought it. NOTHING illegal about that. And, in point of fact, you can say, "I think X stock is a good buy, because they have be working on a friget wallybanger and the first company that produces one is going to have a corner on the market." As long as you aren't the development engineer for the figet wallybanger, and telling people about it---clear sailing. Think of it this way, information that would be discarded in a court of law as "hearsay" is, in general, allowable to be used to make investment decisions on. (However, warning!! It may have the value of "hearsay".) - MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 07:58:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA09257 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 07:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA09251 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 07:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tUbYd-0005QcC; Tue, 26 Dec 95 09:44 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 09:44:55 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Last week I doubted that the CETI beads offered much electrical resistance. After running my little experiment, though, I'm less convinced. The lowest I got my system impedance was 75 ohms. That was with about 20" of Pt wire intermingled with 270g Ni beads (about the size of Coco Puffs, Trix, kids cereals.) For electrical isolation, the Pt wire was strung through some blue decorative plastic beads. But some formation of chemicals tended to short that out in a matter of hours, so I seperated the two components by placing the Pt wire in a small glass bottle and resting the bottle on top of the Ni beads. This changed the impedance to 110 ohms. The PowerGen CETI demo had about 465 ohms impedance. So my slopsidasical approach never managed to approach the impedance of the CETI demo. I used Li2SO4 1.0 molar electrolyte, Ni cathode and Pt anode, current 40 ma, voltage 4.4 volts. Poor geometry to boot. So where's the source of the CETI high resistance? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 08:58:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13647 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 08:46:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA13641 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 08:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvup07563; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19385; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 08:46:02 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 812045080095360FEPRI; 26 Dec 1995 08:45:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 26 Dec 1995 08:45:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/26/95 08:45:19 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/26/95 07:58 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: bead resistance John: Not quite--- I don't think. The "Power Gen" demo had 8 volts at .16 Amps. Let's see.....hummm, that 8/.16 = 50 ohms. I think that you were RIGHT on the money with your first run. Anything wrong with that analysis???? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 11:55:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA29990 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29978 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tUfJK-0005QSC; Tue, 26 Dec 95 13:45 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:45:22 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "MHUGO@EPRI" at Dec 26, 95 08:45:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Mark Hugo writes: > John: Not quite--- I don't think. The "Power Gen" demo had 8 volts at > .16 Amps. Let's see.....hummm, that 8/.16 = 50 ohms. I think that you > were RIGHT on the money with your first run. Anything wrong with that > analysis???? Checking my home pages I find three different CETI PowerGen settings. 44 ohms, 195 ohms, and 398 ohms. (The previous 465 ohms I posted was a mis-calculation of the 398 ohm case.) The 398 ohm case comes from the photos on my home page which show the actual meter readings, V=9.15 and I=0.023. The 44 ohm case was as you say above (your 50 ohm case, about 8 volts, about 0.16 amps.) Much higher current at slightly less voltage gives us a hint of the variability of resistance in the CETI device -- I'll go out on a limb and suggest the variability is due to bead-to-bead contact resistance variations. (Actually I think this is common knowledge due to the early PPC's using compression screw adjustments to set the cell resistance.) Note that my Ni beads were also only conducting by way of bead to bead contact -- though they are heavier and therefore have gravity assist whereas the CETI beads may be more buoyant. Anyhow, bead-to-bead contact resistance can set up the voltage gradient we all suspect across the bead bed, rather than having all beads at the same potential. This matrix of resistance might be part of the reason that the latest CETI cell is long and skinny. When the series resistance of the bead chain approaches or exceeds the resistance of the bulk electrolyte, then the geometry requirements change. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 12:14:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA02334 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA02324 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvvc05817; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22266; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:01:02 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 511900120095360FEPRI; 26 Dec 1995 12:00:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 26 Dec 1995 12:00:12 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/26/95 12:00:18 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/26/95 11:55 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance Yes, good points all John. And one other consideration. I think the latest version of the CETI cell may have had multiple anode/cathode connections with a resistor matrix inside to distribute the currents evenly. (Just a suspicion, since I FAXED that concept to Dennis in May of this year...!) MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 12:46:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA06259 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA06251 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA11600; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:37:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:37:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, John Logajan wrote: > Mark Hugo writes: > > John: Not quite--- I don't think. The "Power Gen" demo had 8 volts at > > .16 Amps. Let's see.....hummm, that 8/.16 = 50 ohms. I think that you > > were RIGHT on the money with your first run. Anything wrong with that > > analysis???? > > Checking my home pages I find three different CETI PowerGen settings. > 44 ohms, 195 ohms, and 398 ohms. (The previous 465 ohms I posted was > a mis-calculation of the 398 ohm case.) I wonder if NON-contacting beads play any part in the heat-generating mechanism. If all the beads are in contact, the bead bed simply acts to increase the surface area of the electrode. But if beads have small gaps between them and many beads are electrically floating, then the electric field in the electrolyte within the gaps between beads will be very intense. If a large percentage of the beads have water films on their surfaces and do not touch together solidly, there may be interesting and nonlinear things happening down in the narrow gaps between the beads. On the other hand, old-style telephone carbon microphones were based on the variable resistance of a bed of carbon beads. The carbon beads were little spheres about .3mm across. When two beads are pushed together, the contact area changes in proportion to the pressure, so the resistance of the carbon bead bed is varied in proportion to the instantaneous air pressure upon the diaphragm. If the CETI cell's bead bed has significant pressure applied to it, I would expect that most of the beads are in solid contact, and varying the pressure changes the resistance by varying the contact area between pairs of beads. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 15:34:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA24162 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA24142 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.65 (eb1ppp1.shentel.net [204.111.1.65]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA06279 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:27:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199512262327.SAA06279 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 27 Dec 95 18:29:48 -0500 From: robert globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > >On the other hand, old-style telephone carbon microphones were based on >the variable resistance of a bed of carbon beads. The carbon beads were >little spheres about .3mm across. When two beads are pushed together, >the contact area changes in proportion to the pressure, so the resistance >of the carbon bead bed is varied in proportion to the instantaneous air >pressure upon the diaphragm. If the CETI cell's bead bed has significant >pressure applied to it, I would expect that most of the beads are in >solid contact, and varying the pressure changes the resistance by varying >the contact area between pairs of beads. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page It is funny you should mention the carbon mike. I was telling Scott last week that one of my professors truly believed, that when a carbon mike was used in conjunction with the right speaker and made to oscillate, that the system would output more sound energy than DC input power. Small world..... Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 16:17:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA27721 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA27709 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 16:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA25353; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 17:36:20 -0500 Date: 26 Dec 95 17:33:20 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: bead resistance Message-ID: <951226223320_100060.173_JHB119-4 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John asks, >> So where's the source of the CETI high resistance? << Perhaps the CETI uses some alternating inductive input which might vibrate the beads causing separation of many at any instant, thus giving the appearance of high impedance. Or maybe some sonic vibration was introduced. Or simply some passivation by H2 gas on the surfaces of the beads. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 06:22:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA27303 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA27292 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA02466; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:13:05 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:13:05 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, John Logajan wrote: > Last week I doubted that the CETI beads offered much electrical resistance. > After running my little experiment, though, I'm less convinced. The lowest > I got my system impedance was 75 ohms. That was with about 20" of Pt wire > intermingled with 270g Ni beads (about the size of Coco Puffs, Trix, kids > cereals.) For electrical isolation, the Pt wire was strung through some > blue decorative plastic beads. But some formation of chemicals tended to > short that out in a matter of hours, so I seperated the two components by > placing the Pt wire in a small glass bottle and resting the bottle on top > of the Ni beads. This changed the impedance to 110 ohms. With these beads-on-Pt-wire, you had narrow electrolyte paths for the current to slip through. I still reckon the major resistance is through the electrolyte, whose conductance is reduced by taking away a lot of its volume and lengthening the current path, by all those beads. But: > The PowerGen CETI demo had about 465 ohms impedance. This can't be right. If I remember rightly, they had 0.7 A and about 8 V across the cell; the upper limit on cell "resistance" is then about 11 ohms, not even taking anything electrochemical into account. At 465 ohms and 0.7 A, they'd have 325 V or 230 W just from that. Ah! That figure rings a bell... you must be talking about their "shorted" cell, i.e. the one that went bad. And now I know also that they use constant current. I think - on the other hand, surely their constant current generator can't go as high as 325 V? I'm confused. Anyway, how about using a simple multimeter and measuring the electrical resistance from one end of a heap of beads to the other? I'd try it with both dry beads and with the LiSO4 solution wetting them. My feeling is that you will measure very few ohms. -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 06:44:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA29312 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA29305 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvxy10683; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30397; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:36:04 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 312335060095361FEPRI; 27 Dec 1995 06:35:06 PST Message-Id: Date: 27 Dec 1995 06:35:06 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/27/95 06:35:22 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/27/95 06:21 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance Deiter: It was 8 volts at .16 amps. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 07:44:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA04320 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 07:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA04311 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 07:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA11321; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 07:36:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 07:36:08 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 27 Dec 1995, Dieter Britz wrote: > Anyway, how about using a simple multimeter and measuring the electrical > resistance from one end of a heap of beads to the other? I'd try it with > both dry beads and with the LiSO4 solution wetting them. My feeling is > that you will measure very few ohms. Good idea. Also, to crudely detect electrochemical effects in the bead bed, you could measure the I versus V and plot a curve. Pure ohmic would result in a straight line. But if chemistry is happening, the line would be somewhere between the straight line of a resistor and that of an electrochemical cell. You could even get fancy and plot this curve at different values of mechanical compression (place different weights on your bead-heap?) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 09:21:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA15169 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA15159 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tUzPl-0005QnC; Wed, 27 Dec 95 11:13 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:13:21 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Dieter Britz" at Dec 27, 95 03:13:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > And now I know also that they use constant current. I thought so too, but Jed tells us that at PowerGen they used simple "wall bug" or "battery eliminator" type DC power supplies. These are generally transformer step-downs with bridge rectification and DC regulation and filtering. These are constant voltage. Jed said they had the kind you could select the voltage with by means of a switch. Thus they likely hit the common battery voltages of 1.5, 3, 6, and 9V. > Anyway, how about using a simple multimeter and measuring the electrical > resistance from one end of a heap of beads to the other? I'd try it with > both dry beads and with the LiSO4 solution wetting them. My feeling is > that you will measure very few ohms. That'll be a nice test for Scott and Martin when they visit Dennis. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From robert visor.com Wed Dec 27 10:18:24 1995 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA22893 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.153 (eb3ppp25.shentel.net [204.111.1.153]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA17243 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199512271820.NAA17243 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 13:22:39 -0500 From: robert globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: bead resistance To: William Beaty In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Status: RO X-Status: Yes Bill, When I was practicing for my amateur radio licensee my fist code was generated in such a way. The carbon mike used in the circuit was a piece of graphite from a pencil suspended between two bits of carbon rod from a dry cell. The speaker was a coil of copper wire on a bolt placed near a lid from a canning jar. This, with 1.5 volts applied would cause the lid to sing up a storm. The simplicity of such a thing indicates it is the answer to something. All true answers I have found are simple. Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 16:06:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA06294 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06281 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA12616 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:54:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199512272354.AA12616 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:54:32 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: BBCtape Date: Wed, 27 Dec 95 18:53:53 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I got a copy of the tape "It Runs on water" that aired on the BBC ch #4 from Gene Mallove. All that I can say is Whow| You all should see if Gene will sell you a copy. Hal, you looked good. You appearance on the BBC was a knock out. I am prowd to know you. I sent a copy of my ZPE lecture at the University of Pitt that I gave this spring to Gene Mallove and to James Reding. I'm hoping Gene or Bill B will begin marketing this tape. Its a pain to reproduce. I want nothing. If any of you are in the book business and would like to begin selling my University Lecture before a full house..I will send you a copy...no charge...Horrace liked the tape. I don't have time to make many copies. Bill B has started to market my disk. May Bill and I both make many sales. See the add on Weird Science for sale. If you are needy and want a copy just ask..I gave so many away that I didn't sell much at all. Happy new year to you all. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 06:35:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA21081 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 06:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus (root [193.226.40.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA21057 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 06:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nessie by zeus with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tVdbf-0003xrC; Fri, 29 Dec 95 14:08 GMT+0200 Received: by nessie (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tVdBO-000Y3qC; Fri, 29 Dec 95 13:41 GMT+0200 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:41:10 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: breakthroughs? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexers, Who can predict the greatest breakthrough in our field in 1996? There will be breakthroughs, I'm certain. Happy New Year to you all! Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 07:50:32 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA27649 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 07:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA27629 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 07:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA08272 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:33:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199512291533.AA08272 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:33:33 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: breakthro Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:32:51 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:41:10 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: breakthroughs? Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com Dear Vortexers, Who can predict the greatest breakthrough in our field in 1996? There will be breakthroughs, I'm certain. Happy New Year to you all! Peter ................................................................ I know| I know| I know| Hugo will get married and have no more time for cold fusion| Frank Z From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 09:04:32 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA05927 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA05921 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA08686; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:51:02 -0500 Date: 29 Dec 95 11:49:30 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: COMPUTER VIRUS ALERT??? Message-ID: <951229164929_100433.1541_BHG63-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Scan your computer for the following viruses: OPRAH WINFREY VIRUS: Your 200MB hard drive suddenly shrinks to 80MB, and then slowly expands back to 200MB. AT&T VIRUS: Every three minutes it tells you what great service your getting. MCI VIRUS: Every three minutes it reminded you that you're paying too much for the AT&T virus. PAUL REVERE VIRUS: This revolutionary virus does not horse around. It warns you of impending hard disk attack: Once, if by LAN; twice if by C. POLITICALLY CORRECT VIRUS: Never identifies itself as a "virus," but instead refers to itself as an "electronic micro-organism." RIGHT-TO-LIFE VIRUS: Won't allow you to delete a file, regardless of how young it is. If you attempt to erase a file, it requires you to first see a counselor about possible alternatives. TED TURNER VIRUS: Colorizes your monochrome monitor. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER VIRUS: Terminates and stays resident. It'll be back. DAN QUAYLE VIRUS (#2): Their is sumthing rong with yor komputer, ewe jsut cant figyour outt watt! GOVERNMENT ECONOMIST VIRUS: Nothing works, but all your diagnostic software says everything is fine. NEW WORLD ORDER VIRUS: Probably harmless, but it makes a lot of people really mad just thinking about it. FEDERAL BUREAUCRAT VIRUS: Divides your hard disk into hundreds of little units, each of which does practically nothing, but all of which claim to be the most important part of your computer. ADAM AND EVE VIRUS: Takes a couple of bytes out of your Apple. CONGRESSIONAL VIRUS: The computer locks up, and the screen splits in half with the same message appearing on each side of the screen. The message says that the blame for the gridlock is caused by the other side. GEORGE BUSH VIRUS: It starts by boldly stating, "read my docs... no new files!" on the screen. It then proceeds to fill up all the free space on your hard drive with new files, then blames it on the Congressional Virus. FREUDIAN VIRUS: Your computer becomes obsessed with marrying its own motherboard. ELVIS VIRUS: Your computer gets fat, slow, and lazy, then self destructs; only to resurface at shopping malls and service stations across rural America. NIKE VIRUS: Just does it. SCHOOL BULLY VIRUS: Steals the Nike Virus at gunpoint. SEARS VIRUS: Your data won't appear unless you buy new cables, power supply, and a set of shocks. JIMMY HOFFA VIRUS: Your programs can never be found again. KEVORKIAN VIRUS: Helps your computer shut down as an act of mercy. ************************************************ From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 09:05:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA06313 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA06295 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwfr16733; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14886; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:55:14 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 194154080095363FEPRI; 29 Dec 1995 08:54:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Dec 1995 08:54:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: breakthro To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/29/95 08:54:40 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/29/95 07:52 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: breakthro Hugo will get married? Geez, how did you find out about Bridget? MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 09:07:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA06685 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA06668 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwfr16853; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14899; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:57:13 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 060156080095363FEPRI; 29 Dec 1995 08:56:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Dec 1995 08:56:08 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: breakthroughs? To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/29/95 08:56:00 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/29/95 06:35 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: breakthroughs? Peter: Didn't forward the "box" to you yet. Didn't know if you are going to be in London. Let me know, if you aren't, I'll send it direct mail to you As Soon As Possible. (ASAP) MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:30:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA18958 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA18928 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.111.1.74 (eb1ppp10.shentel.net [204.111.1.74]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA25973 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:20:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199512291820.NAA25973 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 13:23:18 -0500 From: robert globalcom.net Subject: Re: vtx: breakthroughs? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Peter, Did you get my fax and package? Robert From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 12:17:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA02898 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA02888 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA23868 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:04:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id PAA04655; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:04:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:04:20 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199512292004.PAA04655 spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-reply-to: <199512240011.LAA15896 tornado.netspace.net.au> (rvanspaa@netspace.net.au) Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Robin van Spaandonk" said: > The electron cluster assisted fusion process that I proposed a while > ago could result in the production of stable isotopes, with low > energy x-rays as the only form of radiation. If 6 keV x-rays were > produced, then only 1 in 10^11 would make it through 1 cm of water. > This may well explain why no radiation is detected. Good explanation, but it trips over nasty facts. If you have LOTS of low energy x-rays, you will get excitations which result in visible light. The most likely is to knock an outer shell electron free. If you have mostly water in the affected area, a lot of this radiation is in the UV, but no visible glow, no X-rays. I think Tom Droghe tried putting a phosphor near his sample to look for lower levels of ionization. I know he had a CRT nearby--great dectector for X-rays. At kilowatt levels even one hundredth of one per cent of the energy converted to light should be noticeable. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:01:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA08749 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA08736 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-240.austin.eden.com (net-1-240.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.240]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA13066 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:50:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:50:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512292050.OAA13066 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > At kilowatt levels even one hundredth of one per cent of the energy >converted to light should be noticeable. > > > Robert I. Eachus Latest on the CETI grapevine is that they ARE seeing some light from the cell during operation...bluish light. As far as I know, no spectral analysis has been done yet. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:37:59 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA13366 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA13313 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA20093 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:46:29 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:27:00 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > "Robin van Spaandonk" said: > > > The electron cluster assisted fusion process that I proposed a while > > ago could result in the production of stable isotopes, with low > > energy x-rays as the only form of radiation. If 6 keV x-rays were > > produced, then only 1 in 10^11 would make it through 1 cm of water. > > This may well explain why no radiation is detected. > > Good explanation, but it trips over nasty facts. > > If you have LOTS of low energy x-rays, you will get excitations >which result in visible light. The most likely is to knock an outer >shell electron free. If you have mostly water in the affected area, a >lot of this radiation is in the UV, but no visible glow, no X-rays. I >think Tom Droghe tried putting a phosphor near his sample to look for >lower levels of ionization. I know he had a CRT nearby--great >dectector for X-rays. > > At kilowatt levels even one hundredth of one per cent of the energy >converted to light should be noticeable. > > > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... It is not likely you will see any light from 6KeV xrays unless the effect is occuring at the surface of the electrode. This is because the 6KeV or less xrays would be compeletely absorbed in much less than nanometer diststances. Even if the effect is happening at the surface, UV is absorbed by water. The UV must be converted to visible light. Possibly what is required is a *clear* phosphorescing material that permits the effect through it, or a clear electrode (too bad gold foil doesn't work!), or phosphor coating that is extremely thin. Maybe it would be possible to ion implant a phosphor (lightly) on the surface of the electrode. Another possibility might be to sputter a very thin nickle coating on the end of an optical fiber coated or implanted with a phosphor. You wouldn't get much energy from the electrolysis, but the objective would be to detect the light. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 14:40:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA22290 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA22274 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwgo22911; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20596; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:30:14 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 334429140095363FEPRI; 29 Dec 1995 14:29:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Dec 1995 14:29:14 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/29/95 14:29:43 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/29/95 13:01 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: nuclear? Bingo! That's the He4's ramming into the water. Cherenkov radiation, intense gama, intense alpha, you'll get it. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 16:41:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA06651 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 16:33:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA06636 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 16:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA23475; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 19:31:53 -0500 Date: 29 Dec 95 19:30:17 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Message-ID: <951230003017_100433.1541_BHG59-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex That was my first thought when Scott mentioned the blue glow. And am I right in thinking that this occurs when a particle exceeds lightspeed in the medium of travel? But would this not mean that the particles would be moving at >0.75*c or thereabouts? If that were an alpha, would it not be one hell of a fast alpha? A beta, perhaps? What are the safety implications if all this is more than a rumour? Come now, you physicists! Tell us more! What does this mean? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 18:46:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA19478 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA19457 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwhe10705; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11912; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:37:14 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 892836180095363FEPRI; 29 Dec 1995 18:36:18 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Dec 1995 18:36:18 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/29/95 18:36:27 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/29/95 16:41 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Yes Chris, that' what I saw in my reference too. Made me think for a moment, because I know that fuel rods from fission reactors are primarily gama emitters. Then I looked under "Compton Scattering" to figure out how the intense gama would liberate enough energetic electrons to do the trick. I don't know, I'd have to pull out my conversion stuff to try to figure out if 5MeV alphas would be doing near "C" when they take off. Give me some time. I'm wondering though, if they wouldn't somehow create some other "knock on" stuff. MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 19:40:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA25064 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 19:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA25043 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 19:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tVs1v-00053JC; Fri, 29 Dec 95 21:32 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:32:23 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "MHUGO@EPRI" at Dec 29, 95 06:36:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hugo wrote: > I'd have to pull out my conversion stuff to try to figure out if 5MeV > alphas would be doing near "C" when they take off. Hmm, I haven't done this since July 2, 1978, but I believe the equation is: v = c * SQRT( 1 - ( RestMass^2 / (RestMass+KineticMass)^2 ) ) The restmass of an alpha is 3728.5 MeV/c^2 You suggest a kinetic mass equivalent to 5MeV/c^2. So I get v = .05c -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 01:55:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA25765 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from roimar.imar.ro (roimar.imar.ro [193.226.4.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA25749 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by roimar (MX V3.1C) id 19162; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 11:53:53 0200 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 11:53:48 0200 From: itimc roimar.imar.ro To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: <0099BA35.F1D91860.19162 roimar> Subject: vtx: greetings Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexers, I have received your messages only at Dec 30. and the post to the Institute will be received only on Jan 4. Thank you Robert, will get your package ASAP (patents!) and will translate them for the group. BTW, has anybody met with Potapov? Mark, thank you! Once again, all the best to you friends! Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 10:45:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA28784 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA28772 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04786 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:32:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199512301832.AA04786 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:32:15 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 13:31:35 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 29 Dec 95 19:30:17 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Sender: owner-vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To:vortex That was my first thought when Scott mentioned the blue glow. And am I right in thinking that this occurs when a particle exceeds lightspeed in the medium of travel? But would this not mean that the particles would be moving at >0.75*c or thereabouts? If that were an alpha, would it not be one hell of a fast alpha? A beta, perhaps? What are the safety implications if all this is more than a rumour? Come now, you physicists! Tell us more! What does this mean? Chris A cool non-equlibrium plasma glows blue. Its called a glow discharge. In this type of plasma the electron temperature exceeds the ion temperature. A hot equlibrium plasma glows white. It is called an arc discharge. In an arc discharge the kinetic energy of all the species within the plasma is th e same. I don't know the reasion for the color change. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 13:21:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA13591 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA13577 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA13389; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:06:23 -0500 Date: 30 Dec 95 16:04:20 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Message-ID: <951230210420_100433.1541_BHG45-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Frank writes: "A cool non-equlibrium plasma glows blue. Its called a glow discharge. In this type of plasma the electron temperature exceeds the ion temperature. A hot equlibrium plasma glows white. It is called an arc discharge. In an arc discharge the kinetic energy of all the species within the plasma is the same. I don't know the reasion for the color change." Under water???? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 16:56:36 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA06696 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA06684 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwkp13704; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 19:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22122; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:47:17 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 090746160095364FEPRI; 30 Dec 1995 16:46:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 30 Dec 1995 16:46:16 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/30/95 16:46:06 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/29/95 19:40 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Yes John, you are right. It is fractional of C, I'll admit. But it is worse tha n that. In going over my table of isotopes I find the H1 + Li7 = Be8 not Boron 8! That splits to 2 alphas all right, but with only about 100,000eV energy out ("low grade" nuclear!)Well, it's still a marvelous find. But if there is a "blue glow" it would have to be something like the electrons dropping into orbits on the alphas that are being spat out by the reaction or the like. (Or a knock on collision with other atoms putting out electrons at high energy? Dubious!) So WAKE UP VORTICIANS, I was making a DREADFUL mistake in my huristic thinking and noone called me on it! MDH (Humble pie, Humble pie, Humble pie...) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:59:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA01560 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01509 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-2.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-2.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.2]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA02834 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:43:58 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512310443.PAA02834 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:48:36 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30 Dec 95 at 13:31, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: [snip] > A cool non-equlibrium plasma glows blue. Its called a glow discharge. In > this type of plasma the electron temperature exceeds the ion temperature. > A hot equlibrium plasma glows white. It is called an arc discharge. In an > arc discharge the kinetic energy of all the species within the plasma is th > e same. I don't know the reasion for the color change. > Frank Znidarsic If, as I have suggested, the fusion excited nuclei are dumping their energy into electron clusters, then this results in energetic electrons. In other words, a plasma in which the electron temperature exceeds that of the ions. I presume that these electrons will generate low energy x-rays through their interactions with other atoms. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 20:59:46 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA01557 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01504 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-2.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-2.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.2]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA02795 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:43:49 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512310443.PAA02795 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:48:36 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30 Dec 95 at 16:46, MHUGO EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 12/29/95 19:40 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? > Yes John, you are right. It is fractional of C, I'll admit. But it is worse tha > n that. In going over my table of isotopes I find the H1 + Li7 = Be8 not > Boron 8! That splits to 2 alphas all right, but with only about 100,000eV > energy out ("low grade" nuclear!)Well, it's still a marvelous find. But > if there is a "blue glow" it would have to be something like the electrons > dropping into orbits on the alphas that are being spat out by the reaction > or the like. (Or a knock on collision with other atoms putting out > electrons at high energy? Dubious!) So WAKE UP VORTICIANS, I was making > a DREADFUL mistake in my huristic thinking and noone called me on it! MDH > (Humble pie, Humble pie, Humble pie...) Sorry Mark, but you've just made another terrible(?) mistake. The reaction 3Li7 + 1H1 -> 2 * 2He4 + 17.35 MeV. You have neglected to take into account that the 4Be8 is excited when it splits. The energy that you give is for 4Be8 in its ground state (i think). However even 9 MeV alphas aren't fast enough to generate Cerenkov radiation. (Electrons would be). Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 21:06:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02176 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA02160 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-002.austin.eden.com (net-3-007.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.7]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA21925 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:53:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:53:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512310453.WAA21925 natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: light emission X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A The claim of "bluish" light reminds me of sonoluminescence. You don't suppose that there is some mechanism for bubble collapse in the cell and that the light is, in fact, the same light as from sonoluminescence? Maybe some bubbles of H gas form on one bead, drift off to another bead and are then absorbed resulting in the sudden collapse of the bubble... sounds pretty far-fetched...but then so does a radiationless nuclear process. Even electron-capture usually (an exception is Fe-55) leaves the nucleus in an excited state which results in gamma emission (e.g. Cd-109 decays to Ag-109 emitting Ag K x-rays but there's also an 88 kev gamma that comes out about 4% of the time). From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 00:51:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA21004 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 00:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA20985 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 00:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA24262 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 01:56:46 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 23:36:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: light emission Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's an outlandish conjecture based on my partial orbital hypothesis. If conditions exist in which close approach partial orbitals can be formed, electrons can emit xrays in the 100's of kilovolts. The H nucleus in such conditions would be accelerated also, possibly generating photons in the UV to x-ray range. Deuterons would generate photons in a much lower energy range, as would Li. The outlandish conjecture is that *nuclei* are generating the blue photons. I realize this is a big stretch, especially since the blue glow is not confirmed, but I feel obligated to mention it because it is an effect predicted by my own hypothesis. I would like to say that if such an effect were present I would not be surprized to find out the lattice has been spiked with a beta emitter to seed the emissions. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 02:29:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA26086 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 02:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA26081 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 02:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA07641; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:20:23 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:20:23 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You people seem to have forgotten something. When CNF was first in the news, claing excess heat along with gamma emissions, physicists pointed out that if the process were fusion, there should have be massive radiation. Over the years, the CNF enthusiasts have carefully built up a scenario that explains why you do NOT get this radiation. I.e., if it's d-d fusion, it goes the normally very faint branch leading to 4He, and the normally expected 23 MeV or so is quietly absorbed, by some kind of super-Moessbauer effect, as heat - totally, it has to be, because even a smallish fraction of those gammmas would be easily detectable, and is not detected. I find this hard to believe, but must bow to the superior knowledge of some experts, among them Julian Schwinger, and admit that the argument may be valid. I am not a physicist. But you can't have it both ways; you can't now invoke the radiation and play with it. Either you have a radiationless fusion process, or some other exotic process (in this group, ZPE is invoked) that is not fusion - and then, there would not be any helium, right? -- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 06:39:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA05332 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 06:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA05323 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 06:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA23488; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:23:07 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 09:22:13 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Message-ID: <951231142212_100433.1541_BHG37-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Dieter writes: "You people seem to have forgotten something. When CNF was first in the news, claing excess heat along with gamma emissions, physicists pointed out that if the process were fusion, there should have be massive radiation. Over the years, the CNF enthusiasts have carefully built up a scenario that explains why you do NOT get this radiation. I.e., if it's d-d fusion, it goes the normally very faint branch leading to 4He, and the normally expected 23 MeV or so is quietly absorbed, by some kind of super-Moessbauer effect, as heat - totally, it has to be, because even a smallish fraction of those gammmas would be easily detectable, and is not detected. I find this hard to believe, but must bow to the superior knowledge of some experts, among them Julian Schwinger, and admit that the argument may be valid. I am not a physicist." As one of 'you people', I would like to comment on this. Some of 'us' have 'explanations' for CF. Some of 'us' would like to become famous for discovering its mechanism. Others of us - like me - are interested in the science, but take a much more pragmatic view, and see CF in technological terms rather than scientific ones. Jed Rothwell vigorously takes the "I don't do theory" line, while Gene Mallove and I cannot help being interested in the science of the matter. But we share the same basic line as Jed, which is that theory must and should wait. We have no real choice in the matter, experience shows that such a revolutionary concept as 'free energy' must prove itself in the marketplace, and that any theoretical baggage it insists on carrying there will only get in the way. Worse, it then becomes open to the charge that Richard Blue (for one) constantly levels at it: "I can trash any theory on the grounds that it goes against conventional theory, and thus disprove your results." However, such as Gene and I lean towards the ZPE-type scenario of Puthoff. It is of considerable interest to me that today's Sunday Telegraph has an interview with Arthur C Clarke AND a highly positive article on the ZPE notions of free energy by - astoundingly, of all people, Robert Matthews! I nearly fell off my chair. This leads to the interesting idea that ZPE-type explanations are 'respectable', while CF remains 'fringe' or worse. But, if CF links to ZPE, then CF miraculously becomes 'respectable' too! The inability of many scientists to examine experimental evidence without confusing it with the mechanism claimed by its proponents never fails to astound me. Muddled thinking indeed. "But you can't have it both ways; you can't now invoke the radiation and play with it. Either you have a radiationless fusion process, or some other exotic process (in this group, ZPE is invoked) that is not fusion - and then, there would not be any helium, right?" We most certainly can have it both ways, indeed I have insisted upon it for years. I say that just because *some* people have become so hooked on their *theories* and their hopes for glory that they get - ah - "muddled about the evidence" - does not invalidate the experimental *results*. But some of we observers are fascinated if we hear that a *physical effect* other than heat is being observed in high-power and highly reproducible experiments. If indeed there is blue light in CETI cells, then the obvious possibilities include sonoluminescence and Cerenkov radiation. Either of these (if the rumour is confirmed) would give us helpful clues (in *advance* of theory for a welcome change) as to the mechanism. I may be alone in my speculation that while such as the CETI device has considerable technological and social implications, an understanding and control of the basic *mechanism* would be of even more significance. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 07:39:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA08259 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA08248 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA15464; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:25:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:25:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: light emission In-Reply-To: <199512310453.WAA21925 natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 30 Dec 1995, Scott Little wrote: > The claim of "bluish" light reminds me of sonoluminescence. You don't > suppose that there is some mechanism for bubble collapse in the cell and > that the light is, in fact, the same light as from sonoluminescence? Interesting. There might be other mechanisms for bubble formation. Does the electrochemistry of a water/metal interface usually generate acoustic noise? I recall something about this coming up in the early CF debate. If so, then maybe the electrochemical part merely provides numerous tiny local sources of high intensity sound, and the anomalous energy comes from sonoluminescence. In the conventional sonoluminescence demonstration, different additives produce different light output. Perhaps the chemical environment near the electrode surface provides just the right 'doping' to create greatly increased energy output from the cavitation. So if a reliable sonolumin- escence device was operating, the dim spot of light would blaze bright if the water was replaced with LiOH which contained Palladium ions (or maybe collodial micro-clusters?) Maybe the processes discovered by E-quest were directly generating the excess energy, rather than simply injecting protons into the metal lattice. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 08:10:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA10163 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10156 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06933 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199512311556.AA06933 power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:56:47 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: light Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 10:56:09 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I saw in the BBC tape the invention of Stanley Myer. His cell produce s excess hydrogen. Perhaps CETI and E-quest are also producing some excess hydrogen. This hydrogen then recombines on the catalytic surface producing a blueish glow. Hydrogen flames burn blue, I believe. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 08:15:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA10733 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA10724 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA24843 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:27:00 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:06:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >You people seem to have forgotten something. When CNF was first in the >news, claing excess heat along with gamma emissions, physicists pointed >out that if the process were fusion, there should have be massive >radiation. Over the years, the CNF enthusiasts have carefully built up a >scenario that explains why you do NOT get this radiation. I.e., if it's >d-d fusion, it goes the normally very faint branch leading to 4He, and the >normally expected 23 MeV or so is quietly absorbed, by some kind of >super-Moessbauer effect, as heat - totally, it has to be, because even a >smallish fraction of those gammmas would be easily detectable, and is not >detected. I find this hard to believe, but must bow to the superior >knowledge of some experts, among them Julian Schwinger, and admit that the >argument may be valid. I am not a physicist. > >But you can't have it both ways; you can't now invoke the radiation and >play with it. Either you have a radiationless fusion process, or some >other exotic process (in this group, ZPE is invoked) that is not fusion - >and then, there would not be any helium, right? > >-- Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk I am not a physicist either. However, with that qualification, I have posted a specific opinion on this in both vortex and s.p.f. by which I still stand. Numerous others have posted theories or hypotheses whereby nuclear signature events would exist but be secondary in regards to energy production. I feel evidence for the Partial Orbital Hypothesis has only grown stronger. (The name is here changed to avoid jamming up Bill Beaty's software with what looks like a command.) The following is an excerpt from my post here on vortex-l on 11/11/95: ASH AND NUCLEAR SIGNATURES There is a finite probability that tunneling will not occur before other events preempting the tunneling scenario occur. After emitting sufficient energy via photons, the electron in the partial orbital has lost momentum so can not return to a conduction band, so spirals into the proton, emitting photons as it goes, but can not combine with it because of the extra energy needed to create a neutron (i.e. about 0.5 MeV). If tunneling does not occur, you end up with a protoneutron, similar to or as described in Mitchell Jones' Protoneutron Theory of cold fusion as posted in sci.physics.fusion. This neutral charge protoneutron would be unable to stabilize and would eventually combine with a nucleus or another protoneutron, either of which it could join without penetrating a coulomb barrier. If, at thermal energies, protoneutrons were unable to combine with anything but protoneutrons, the potential also exists for creating 4n particles as described by Raymon Prasaad in sci.physics.fusion to result in T3 and H4, but no neutrons. Either way, through tunneling or protoneutron creation, the possibility of sub-orbitals gives rise to a potential explanation for excess heat, with protoneutron creation , however brief, indicating a small but finite probability of ash creation. The electron tunneling process described is hypothesized to generate most of the free energy of cold fusion. The lattice conditions described could also generate nuclear fusion through mechanisms as described by others, but the size of the free electron partial orbital effect should be much larger than nuclear effects due to a higher probability of occurrence and the longer average tunneling distance of an electron. No significant energy is hypothesized to be generated by any nuclear reactions or electron captures. The tunneling referred to is electron tunneling through the potential barrier at the end of the free electron's sub-orbital. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 08:43:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13024 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13005 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA24916 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:56:33 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:36:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: light emission Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >In the conventional sonoluminescence demonstration, different additives >produce different light output. Perhaps the chemical environment near the >electrode surface provides just the right 'doping' to create greatly >increased energy output from the cavitation. So if a reliable sonolumin- >escence device was operating, the dim spot of light would blaze bright if >the water was replaced with LiOH which contained Palladium ions (or maybe >collodial micro-clusters?) Maybe the processes discovered by E-quest were >directly generating the excess energy, rather than simply injecting >protons into the metal lattice. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 Just a couple things noticed in passing. Some time ago, I tried a 15KV 60mA A/C discharge between two 3/8 inch dia. nickle coated 35 MGO neodymium magnets under water. I noticed some blue discharge, but I assumed it was arcing between the steel connectors crimpped to the end of the insulated leads which were simply attached to the magnets by magnetic attraction. I didn't want to get too close for obvious reasons! Maybe some kind of ultra thin micro-cell was formed between the electrode tip and the magnet. I'll have to try that again. More to the point, though, I noticed a tendancy for bubbles to form on the bottom of the glass bowl in which the above experiment was conducted. The bubbles formed in an area between the electrodes with an oblong shape that corresponded to the magnetic and electrostatic field between the two electrodes. It could be that surface bubble formation can be enhanced by electrolyte current even for insulated surfaces. I think such bubbles would consist of dissolved air plus steam/water vapour plus H2 and O2 in 2-1 volume proportions. I think an electric current would increase the potential for recombination effects. Possibly some of the blue glow is from recombining H and O? One problem with this thought is that people have looked for a blue glow in the past (in D/Pd cells) and not found it. Recombination was occuring in those cells to some degree. Possibly the CETI cell has an A/C component? This would increase the H2 + O2 generation at a single electrode, and therefore recombination, significantly. This probably does not agree with the CETI facts either, but it sure would be good to place oscilloscope probes in/on that cell at various places just to check it out. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 08:46:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13226 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13216 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA24924 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:58:31 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 07:38:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: light Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > -> VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > I saw in the BBC tape the invention of Stanley Myer. His cell produce >s excess hydrogen. Perhaps CETI and E-quest are also producing some excess >hydrogen. This hydrogen then recombines on the catalytic surface >producing a blueish glow. Hydrogen flames burn blue, I believe. > > > Frank Znidarsic Bingo, and ditto on the blue flame. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 08:58:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA14244 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA14221 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tWQuI-00057SC; Sun, 31 Dec 95 10:46 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: light emission To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:46:50 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Horace Heffner" at Dec 31, 95 07:36:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Possibly the CETI cell has an A/C component? This would increase the H2 + > O2 generation at a single electrode, and therefore recombination, > significantly. The CETI cell at PowerGen probably did have an AC component, as such cheap power supplies as they used do not have great filtering. However, their AC ripple is displaced from zero-crossing, polarity reversing regime by several volts. (I had about a 1.6V p-p ripple with a 2 watt load on a 4.5V DC setting with one of these "battery eliminators" as used at PowerGen.) It would be very unusual for a DC power supply to have reverse current even in extreme ripple conditions. The diodes themselves can't prevent ripple, but they are very good a preventing reverse current. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 09:12:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA15764 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA15750 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA24837; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:00:40 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 11:58:43 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Meyer et al. Message-ID: <951231165842_100433.1541_BHG34-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Frank writes:. "I saw in the BBC tape the invention of Stanley Myer. His cell produces excess hydrogen." Meyer *claims* that. There are hints that suggest he has something strange. On the other hand, he is a very difficult man to deal with, the UK Dept of Trade and Industry has apparently warned UK firms about him, and NOBODY gets near his equipment with a meter. In other words, we trust him about as far as we could spit a rat. It was not a BBC documentary, it was done by the InCa company for Channel 4 Television's Equinox science series. By the way, I *did* send a PAL format tape to Hal and Scott by airmail before Christmas, it should be there now or very soon. I am still in shock from seeing the way the Sunday Telegraph approach 'free energy'! "Perhaps CETI and E-quest are also producing some excess hydrogen. This hydrogen then recombines on the catalytic surface producing a blueish glow. Hydrogen flames burn blue, I believe." Yes, they do. But - under water? It would be good to have a spectral analysis. That would, I think, help a lot.... Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 10:05:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA20398 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20382 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 09:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA25104 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:17:16 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:57:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: light emission Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >The CETI cell at PowerGen probably did have an AC component, as such >cheap power supplies as they used do not have great filtering. However, >their AC ripple is displaced from zero-crossing, polarity reversing >regime by several volts. (I had about a 1.6V p-p ripple with a 2 watt load >on a 4.5V DC setting with one of these "battery eliminators" as used >at PowerGen.) It would be very unusual for a DC power supply to have >reverse current even in extreme ripple conditions. The diodes themselves >can't prevent ripple, but they are very good a preventing reverse current. > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - Yes. It is an interresting thought, though, that if the ripple were somehow passed through a capacitance, or inductance, it would become A/C. Also, the ripple can be expected to align and then let relax large numbers of water molecule dipoles on each cycle. If some the beads are not in direct contact there might also be a capacitance effect to some degree, but I would not expect the effect to be noticeable or significant. Maybe more significant might be the 60 cycle accoustical stimulus, piezoelectric effects, and the effects of ripple created inductance. The inductance effects would depend on cell geometry. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:01:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA08176 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA08171 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA27541; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:48:12 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 15:45:40 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Russ George, who has only a hammer . . . Message-ID: <951231204539_72240.1256_EHB109-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little wrote: "The claim of "bluish" light reminds me of sonoluminescence. You don't suppose that there is some mechanism for bubble collapse in the cell and that the light is, in fact, the same light as from sonoluminescence?" No, we don't suppose that, but Russ George of E-Quest once did. He said to me that he thinks the high loading in electrochemical CF comes from the collapse of electrochemically generated bubbles on the metal surface. As many readers know, E-Quest does CF with ultrasound loading of heavy water plasma (both deuterium and oxygen) into metals. E-Quest has show high speed microphotos of bubbles forming on the metal surface, collapsing and injecting the gas into the metal. I believe it is the bubble collapse phase that produces the blue light of sonoluminescence, not the sound per se. If you can make bubbles collapse by some other method maybe they would luminesce? I do not take Russ's hypothesis about electrolysis bubbles seriously, but I thought I would mention it. My 'Subject' line here is based on a folk saying: "To a man who has only a hammer, all problems look like a nail." - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 13:02:12 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA08189 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA08177 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA27570; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:48:14 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 15:46:37 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: 1 year's worth of speculation about theo Message-ID: <951231204636_72240.1256_EHB109-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I cannot resist commenting on Deiter's challenge: "You people seem to have forgotten something. When CNF was first in the news, claiming excess heat along with gamma emissions, physicists pointed out that if the process were fusion, there should have be massive radiation. Over the years, the CNF enthusiasts have carefully built up a scenario that explains why you do NOT get this radiation . . ." As Chris says, I am the last person on earth to have any opinion or knowledge of the physical processes or mechanisms of CF, but I do have a few opinions about these topic which I would like to cautiously express. It is clear by now that whatever CF is (or isn't) it must be a complex phenomenon with many different phases and appearances. CF does have a nuclear component, beyond any doubt. Most cells do produce helium. A few produce tritium, which is much easier to detect with assurance. A few have produced massive and easily detected transmutations in the host metal. I do not think anyone can seriously challenge the K. Wolf results presented by Tom Passell at ICCF5. Is CF nuclear, ZPE or something else? I think the answer is clear. It may include ZPE components (I do not know), but it must also include some nuclear reactions. Tritium, helium and heavy element transmutation are nuclear, by definition. Of course CF is nuclear! Perhaps it also something else too. Perhaps the nuclear transmutations are a mere side-effect of that mysterious-other-reaction. The "side effect" idea confuses some people, but it is very simple. We all know that nuclear energy can trigger chemical changes. Nuclear heat from the sun makes flowers grow here on earth. The heat from an above-ground nuclear explosion will always ignite many chemical fires, which add to the total energy release. The heat and ashes from a nuclear explosion always end up coming from a mixture of nuclear and chemical sources. Furthermore, in rare special cases, a chemical reaction can trigger a nuclear reaction. Nuclear bombs are triggered by chemical implosions, just as CF reactions are triggered by electrochemical concentration of hydrogen in metals. Perhaps in a CF cell energy from ZPE triggers small scale nuclear reactions. It might produce different reactions under different circumstances. In rare, special circumstances, it might produce no nuclear reactions at all. This would be analogous to setting off a nuclear bomb in deep space, where it can ignite no chemical fires. Dieter writes that "CNF enthusiasts have carefully built up a scenario that explains why you do NOT get this radiation." This is incorrect. *Some* CF experiments have produced definitive evidence of radiation. Not as much as hot fusion, of course. I know practically nothing about the subject, but, for example, consider the experiments of A. Takahashi et al. at Osaka University. They bombard Pd samples with a high powered deuteron beam. They turn it off, and they see radiation that continues for about a half hour. They say the signature does not look like any known conventional nuclear reaction, and it cannot be caused by the beam because it continues long after the beam is turned off. They think it is characteristic of CF reactions. Others like KEK have also reported radiation. To me, this can only mean that CF -- whatever it is -- must be a complex, multifarious reaction, like fission or combustion. Consider a nuclear warhead. A fission explosion (or fission plus thermonuclear fusion) will produce different amounts of energy and different nuclear products depending on the fuel, the power intensity, the duration of the reaction, the geometry of the warhead and many other factors. Nuclear weapons are *fundamentally* (conceptually) simple. You just squash together subcritical masses and Boom! But the details are astoundingly complex. Before the first fission bomb went off, nobody had any firm idea how much energy it would produce. There was a gigantic range of guesses. There was even one prediction that it might wipe out a large part of New Mexico. Nobody would call those physicists at Los Alamos second-rate bumblers. They simply *did not know* because the problem was too complex. After 1945 the U.S. military spent billions of dollars trying to get a handle on this problem. They want to build nuclear bombs that produce an explosion of a predictable, pre-set size, with predictable radiation and fallout. They have mostly achieved that goal, but it took decades of hard work, countless *experiments* (not just theory and number crunching!) and more money than anyone can imagine. To take another example of complexity, consider chemical combustion. This is one the most heavily researched areas of physics. Again, it is fundamentally simple: the fuel combines with oxygen. But the ramifications are complex beyond all measure. Nobody anywhere can predict what will happen when you ignite a complex fuel mix like, for example, municipal garbage sprayed with kerosene. Nobody can say what toxic products the smoke might contain, or how hot the fire might get. That is why these 'waste to energy' projects often founder. I expect that when we finally sort out the problem and discover the mechanism for CF, we will understand why it can produce results across the board. We will see why these results are complicated and unpredictable, just like a nuclear bomb explosion or garbage incineration. We will find out how and why CF reactions and products depend on things like the starting fuel, the intensity of the reaction, and other parameters that we cannot even imagine now. At this stage, we are blindly stumbling around. In CF experiments we sometimes burn coal, sometimes paper, and often we burn the nuclear equivalent of municipal garbage. It is no wonder the reaction products and the reactions themselves are so different from one experiment to another! It would be a miracle if they were similar. Actually, Bockris and some others now suspect that the distinction between nuclear and chemical reactions is artificial, given the apparent intermixing we see in CF. Perhaps Mother Nature makes a clear distinction between the chemical and the nuclear domain. According to the textbooks she does, see: Coulomb Barrier. The main evidence for this barrier appears to be the fact that we maintain separate departments and separate budgets for chemistry and physics departments at our universities. I suppose these domains are separate. Even if we accept the conventional view they are separate, that does not prevent reactions in one domain from affecting the other, particularly "downhill." As I said, reactions in the higher energy domain (nuclear) almost always affect the low energy (chemical) domain: the sun makes flowers grow. And as I said, under specially arranged circumstances you can make it work the other way: a TNT charge can implode a critical mass and cause a reaction in the higher domain. It seems logical to me that if there is a still higher domain, like ZPE, energy from that must often cause reactions in the next lower domain (nuclear), and in the one after that (chemical). . . . Okay, that's it for theoretical speculation from me. That's my utmost limit. You probably won't see another speck of speculation about theory from me for the whole of 1996, and if you do it will be a rehash of the above, which is a mostly a rehash of other people's ideas anyway. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 14:10:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA15869 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA15858 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:02:59 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA22287 for vortex-l eskimo.com; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:01:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:01:44 -0500 Message-ID: <951231170143_81643501 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, Can you send me a copy of the Sunday Telegraph article with Clarke by Matthews? And thanks for the video. Shall I return after making copies? Hal From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 15:49:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA26199 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA26185 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwoc01649; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24826; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:40:47 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 060540150095365FEPRI; 31 Dec 1995 15:40:15 PST Message-Id: Date: 31 Dec 1995 15:40:15 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/31/95 15:40:04 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/30/95 20:59 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Oooooohhh! Thanks Robin... I was already lamenting the 50 fold reduction I'd given myself in potential energy from the reaction if I am right! 17MeV sounds good. I'll take that. However, is that the amount you get from the .0001 gram per mole mass defect? MDH From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:20:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA10472 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA10465 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA22726; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:12:30 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 21:10:16 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: S Telegraph article Message-ID: <960101021016_100433.1541_BHG45-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Subj;Article in S Telegraph Hal asks if I'll mail the article. Of course I will, it's full of his quotes. And Clarke's. Clarke has forgotten more about handling the press than I could ever learn, I think. Astounding, that Matthews should write so positive an article about free energy. I managed to get a complete spare copy, which goes to Gene, but perhaps Hal will be happy with a photocopy. As to the tape, it is pretty useless, it was just a copy of the off-broadcast one, and therefore not of the best quality. Hal might wish to give it to some European visitor who uses the PAL format. Jed points out the clear nuclear effects seen in CF. Yes, of course. It all makes me wonder if the Casimir effect has no time to work at plasma velocities. The question in my mind is whether CF etc represents a hole in physics, or just a minor adjustment being needed. Or whether it means that there are *several* holes in physics... Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:30:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA11239 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA11232 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:22:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA20610; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:21:19 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 21:19:34 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Happy new year. Message-ID: <960101021934_100433.1541_BHG37-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex A happy new year to all on the list, whatever they believe in! But especially to us benighted goyim, who have to manage with just the one new year each year... Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 21:09:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA26107 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:01:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA26082 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-7.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-7.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.7]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA20388 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:58:13 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601010458.PAA20388 tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 16:03:00 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 31 Dec 95 at 15:40, MHUGO EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 12/30/95 20:59 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? > Oooooohhh! Thanks Robin... I was already lamenting the 50 fold reduction I'd > given myself in potential energy from the reaction if I am right! 17MeV sounds > good. I'll take that. However, is that the amount you get from the .0001 > gram per mole mass defect? MDH Mark, I believe you are calculating the mass defect based upon the mass of 2He4 and 4Be8. This is precisely the problem I was talking about. I have the following figures for masses (in amu): 4Be8 = 8.0053051 3Li7 = 7.0160041 1H1 = 1.0078252 ---------------- 3Li7 + 1H1 = 8.0238293 ----> This is considerably larger than 4Be8 2 * 2He4 = 8.0052066 ---------------------- 3Li7 + 1H1 - (2 * 2He4) = 0.0186227 ---> ( >> .0001 ) As the sum of 3Li7 + 1H1 is greater than 4Be8, I have assumed that the 4Be8 would be created in an excited state, if it in fact ever even comes into existance at all. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 22:25:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA01815 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01800; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id WAA09285; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:13:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:13:39 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list mail.eskimo.com, vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com cc: keelynet ix.netcom.com Subject: vtx: Antigravity film company Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just received this. Anyone with interest can contact them directly. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:22:47 -0800 From: ross marshall To: billb eskimo.com Plutonium Films prod., Inc. c/o Ross Marshall, Dir/Producer 8055 Lankershim Blvd., #2 N. Hollywood, Ca. 91605 1-818-504-4135 E-Mail: < ross pacificnet.net > Re: Anti-Gravity Research and Development: General Request Invitation Letter: Dear sirs, we are a documentary film and video corporation and are in the process of producing a documentary on magnetism and anti-gravity. We would like to offer any and all participants the chance to contribute information, files and video footage of interviewers and experimental devices for consideration as visuals and data for the documentary. Plutonium will offer each an agreement of percentage royalties, according to the information used, in return for the data contributed. We are excited about the subject matter and hope that many of you will feel free to contribute any relevant data necessary to further the project. Anyone interested in this can call for further details and description of their available data. Video footage of any quality will be greatly rewarded, when used in the documentary. Video footage can consist of interviews (short ones) of professionals and researchers and inventors, and any demonstration of devices, WHETHER OR NOT THEY FULLY WORK. Visuals are very important for the production. Please feel free to e-mail files with return mailing addresses and phone numbers; e-mail description of any video footage you have and/or ship samples, or the complete footage to the above address in care of Ross Marshall, Director/Producer. Files may consist of description of devices, theories, and any relevant data associated with anti-gravity; from realistic to Sci-Fi. All materials will be evaluated for the documentary and everyone will be contacted who has contributed, whether the materials are used or not. All contributors who's data is used will be given a chance of negotiation for contract royalties on the profit income of the doc's quarterly income. All who contribute will be given name credits at the end of the doc. and advertising space (addresses will be listed, if requested) for any products and data for release. Please feel free to contact us at the above address. Sincerely; Ross Marshall 12-31-95 rsm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 23:25:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA06043 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA06031 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27193 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 00:37:12 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:16:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Antigravity film company Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I just received this. Anyone with interest can contact them directly. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 [snip] >Plutonium Films prod., Inc. >c/o Ross Marshall, Dir/Producer >8055 Lankershim Blvd., #2 >N. Hollywood, Ca. 91605 >1-818-504-4135 >E-Mail: < ross pacificnet.net > > >Re: Anti-Gravity Research and Development: [snip] Dare I ask? Could there be a link to Plutonium U. here? A happy and productive new year to all vortexians! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 03:29:20 1996 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA19481 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 03:19:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA19455 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 03:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from cappa.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA09374; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:18:34 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:18:34 +0100 Message-Id: <9601011118.AA09374 giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: conte teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A to vortex. in date 13.12.1995 I attempted to send a message to vortex-l entitled a New Experiment of Cold Fusion that we are perfor- ming on a new theoretical basis. Has this message been received from the components of the group vortex-l?.Please,may you confirm.helping me?.Thank you and happy new year. elio conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 19:44:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA01663 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA01650 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvzy16707; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13149; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:35:06 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 562834190095361FEPRI; 27 Dec 1995 19:34:19 PST Message-Id: Date: 27 Dec 1995 19:34:19 PST From: "MHUGO EPRI" Subject: vtx: Patents and CF To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 12/27/95 19:34:27 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/27/95 18:26 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Patents and CF Ron: CETI is NOT being that secretive. They are only withholding some informati on on the stuff that made the "high power cell" go, because they don't have the Patent protection on that yet. Also, part of what is going on is a careful, deliberate plan right now to get some really CREDIBLE institutions to duplicate the results, and (I'm speculating on this) to publish SIMULTANEOUSLY. Some what of a plan to "put to rest" the critics and the doubt, once and for all. MDH