From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 07:22:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA27609 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA27604 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-136.austin.eden.com (net-1-136.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.136]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA04533 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 09:13:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 09:13:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601011513.JAA04533@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Meyer et al. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris writes: >Meyer *claims* that. There are hints that suggest he has something strange. >On the other hand, he is a very difficult man to deal with, the UK Dept of >Trade and Industry has apparently warned UK firms about him, and NOBODY gets >near his equipment with a meter. The last point is a shame. I believe that dissociation via electrolysis necessarily obeys Faraday's observations and that, in the case of water, 2 electrons must flow thru the cell in order to liberate one O atom and 2 H atoms. If Meyer is getting more gas production than his electrical input would suggest then it would be most interesting to see if this is achieved by having the "correct" current (for the gas being produced) with an abnormally low voltage (due presumably to some magic "assist" he has arranged). How could his current be lower than the abovementioned value? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 07:31:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA28111 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA28101 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-136.austin.eden.com (net-1-136.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.136]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA04651 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 09:23:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 09:23:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601011523.JAA04651@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: 1 year's worth of speculation about theo X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Jed, another thing you could do in 1996 is stop saying that you are not a scientist. Perhaps you were not formally trained as such but anyone who pays as much attention to unusual phenomena as you and makes as many astute observations and conclusions as you....is a scientist, like it or not! >Perhaps the nuclear transmutations are a mere side-effect of that >mysterious-other-reaction. Very interesting possibility. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 07:40:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA28665 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA28649 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:33:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 15:03:44 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <14044@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: breakthroughs? X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 10 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On this point, in yesterday's (31st December) copy of the most serious Sunday newspaper in the UK, the 'Independent on Sunday' various people were giving out their forecasts for the year ahead. The science writer forecast, amongst other more expected things, that 1996 would be the year that cold fusion, or some other over-unity process would finally achieve the breakthrough. I can't remember the reporter's name, perhaps he's a lurker on one of Bill B's newslists! -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 08:25:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01400 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01390 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA26015; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:16:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:16:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: 1 year's worth of speculation about theo In-Reply-To: <199601011523.JAA04651@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 1 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Jed, another thing you could do in 1996 is stop saying that you are not a > scientist. Perhaps you were not formally trained as such but anyone who > pays as much attention to unusual phenomena as you and makes as many astute > observations and conclusions as you....is a scientist, like it or not! Me, I always tell people that I'm an "amateur scientist," or even "fringe-science amateur." Then there's no way I can be mistaken for the opposite: a mainstream professional. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 10:09:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA11401 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA11387 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwqy01040; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28570; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:01:56 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 374600100096001FEPRI; 01 Jan 1996 10:00:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 01 Jan 1996 10:00:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/01/96 10:00:45 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/01/96 03:28 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l Whoops, that's supposed to be ANGLE not ANGEL, the first is the direction of approach, the second is the Christmas story. Happy NEW YEAR everyone, and my it bring the "establishment" to their knees! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 10:09:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA11304 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA11295 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwqy01012; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12181; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:00:56 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 873259090096001FEPRI; 01 Jan 1996 09:59:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 01 Jan 1996 09:59:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/01/96 09:59:32 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/01/96 03:28 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l Professor Conte: Are you working on the Piantelli type devices, or is this a new angel on things. Bill Beaty is the person to address directly for the VORTEXL transmissions. Bill, do you still need some ?? Would end of the month (Jan) be OK? MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 10:12:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA11736 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA11720 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwqy01171; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24748; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:04:56 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 091704100096001FEPRI; 01 Jan 1996 10:04:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 01 Jan 1996 10:04:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/01/96 10:04:16 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/31/95 21:09 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Robin, obviously too many things going on in my life at this time. A SIMPLE calculation and concept and I missed it. (Altzhimer's at 42?) THANK YOU , THANK YOU, THANK YOU. Say, do you do any data processing work on your PC? Do you kno w about the program, Demo-Vissim? I'd like to get you a copy. I think you'd enjoy it. (Goes for anyone else too.) MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 10:13:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA11653 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA11646 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06681 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:03:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199601011803.AA06681@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:03:54 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: gravity/fields Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 13:03:15 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser Subject: DId this msg ever make it? In-Reply-To: <199511011703.AA03565@power.gpu.com> On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > > > -> VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > > Date: 01 Nov 95 09:41:20 EST > From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> > To: vortex > Subject: Does this make sense? > Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > To:vortex > > Or, is it relevant anyway? This was picked up off the 'net, but I don't know > from where. If it's sane or relevant, I could trace it. I'm only passing it > on because it sort of feels like it might connect somewhere. > > Chris > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > The Mechanism of MagnetoGravitics > > It has been known for a long period of time that rotating masses > create magnetic fields (See the Blackett Effect). This effect is > observed even in materials that are normally not magnetic (such as > ceramics [as is evidenced by the spin induced magnetism seen in > high rev, high temperature turbines]). Indeed, in Maxwell's > definition of magnetism, this property is defined as a resultant effect > of spin moment J. The question therefore is, how does a magnetic > field evolve from just rotating a mass? > > Consider this analogy, we will envision a sphere rigidly mounted on > a vertical shaft such that the shaft "spears" the central axis of the > sphere up to its center. The material of the sphere consists of a > rigid loosely spun fiber, such that a fluid may pass (under pressure) > through the sphere. The central shaft is hollow, and is connected to > a vacuum pump. When turned on, the vacuum pump draws air from > the outside of the sphere into the central region by evacuating this > region and exhausting this air elsewhere. When the pump is turned > on, a pressure gradient will be generated symmetrically around the > sphere. In all basic respects, this pressure gradient will mimic the > properties of a gravitational field (thus we will call this, flow > induced pseudo-gravity [FIPG]). We note that the pressure gradient > is directed radially (inward towards the center) at this point. > > So what will happen to this inward flow if we spin our sphere? We > find that by rotating the sphere, we have introduced rotational drag > component in the inward flow of air (in General Relativity this drag > effect is present in all rotational systems and is called reference > frame dragging, or the Thirring/Lense Effect). Whereas for the case > of the non-rotating FIPG the iso-pressure lines are radially > symmetrical, for the rotational case these lines it takes on the > classic shape of the mapped magnetic lines of force. We also note that > the curl (pattern of rotation) is opposite at each pole, again > consistent with magnetism. > > For the above discussion, the magnitude of each component (radial > inward flow, verses, rotational flow) is strictly based on the induced > pressure gradient, and the rate of rotation. We can clearly see that > if we spin up (or down) our sphere at a very high rate, the inward > flow will be temporarily diverted (swept up) into the rotationally > induced motion due to viscous sweep on the boundary layers of the > sphere. During this period, the interior region of the sphere will > see a reduced inward flow in air and as a result the FIPG is reduced > during this period. This is phenomena of magneto-gravitics. > > So does this discussion match any experimental evidence, consider > the recent experiments carried out by E. Podkletnov, R. Nieminen,, > and A.D. Levit (1992 to 1995). In these, the weight of several > sample specimens was observed to demonstrate a reduction of 0.05 > percent in the presence of a super-conducting disk (r = 72.5 mm, t > = 6 mm) of high-Te material refrigerated by liquid helium and was > levitating over a solenoid due to the Meissner effect. This reduction > was increased to 0.3 percent by rotating the disk by use of lateral > alternating magnetic fields. In another experiment, the configuration > consisted of a super-conducting disk ring encased in a stainless steel > cryostat filled with liquid helium, and sample specimens of different > compositions placed at distance of 25 to 1000 mm from the cryostat. > With the ring rotating at 5000 rpm, the measured weight loss was > 0.3 to 0.5 percent. This effect was "increased" to 1.9 to 2.1 percent > during the reduction of speed of the disk, induced by changing the > current in the solenoid. It was noted by G. Modanese (MPI- > PhT/95-44) that the effect appeared linked to induced gradients: > > "Moreover, the experimental results show, as mentioned, that > there is no shielding when the disk is not levitating, but is > placed over a fixed support, and that the effect IS > STRONGER in the presence of rotation and when the > rotation speed is decreased. We take these as indications that > the shielding depends on THE GRADIENTS of the > condensate, rather than on its absolute strength." > > A friend and colleague mentioned to me that this effect was also > noted during the "pulsed" discharge of the capacitors into the > magnetic coils of the Theta-Pinch Fusion reactor experiments > conducted a Los Alamos in the 1970's. He stated that it was noted > that the entire assembly would appear to "jump" in response to the > pulsed high intensity magnetic fields induced in the toriodal > assembly. He further stated that this was associated with an > anomalous reduction in weight of the toroidal assembly during > firings. > > If you find these posting of interest please let me know. > > Paul Stowe > > Paul Stowe You are correct....As I said before gravity is not a force it > is a field...and it conserves momentum..The original gravitational field > may be compared to an electric field. It looks like. > > > > > * > | > | > | > <------ F------> > | > | > | > \ / > This field conserves momentum in a static (non-moving) system> > > > Gravitational fields propagate at the finite velocity of light. > As mass moves it moves into the established field of distant matter. > The moved matter's field takes time to propagate to the distant matter's > location. During this interval the orginial static field cannot > conserve momentum. A new field is need. This field in an electrical syst > em is the magnetic field and in a gravitational system is the gravitomagne > tic field. This field conserves momentum in a moving system. > I looks like a circle (it has curl) > > / > / | > | > -------|------------------> movement > | / > / > Its range of interaction is local. You will have to do some figuring to > see how the interaction of this field results in a momentum conv' force. > In an accelerating system a 3d force is needed to conserve momentum. > > In an electrical field this field is the induced electrical field and in > a gravitational field this field is the induced grav field. It has no > curl or divergence. It looks like a bunch of arrows. As I have stated > many times before its magnitude = G/ccr (dp/dt) > > --------------> > --------------> > --------------> > > I'm glad you brought up your comment. Just yesterday I called Edward Try > on and asked him about cold fusion. He said the process was not fusion and > he didn't know what it was. I said that's why I called,I think it's > genesis, similar to the process that formed the universe. He responded,. > The gravitational field is very week,to week to matter much. I said it ha > s a long range of interaction that produces a large gravitational potential > for such a week field. He responded, my model applied to the universe > > when it was very young and small. Local matter cannot > interact with distant matter through a luminal process. > I went on to explain that induced gravitation fields act as > a reservoir of momentum and energy. These local field store the negative > energy until the original static field has time to reach out. That's when > I was cut off. > > I don't think he really appreciates how important his model is > in explaining the flow of ZPE and the monumental importance that flow > is going to be to our society. > F Znidarsic > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 10:14:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA11831 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA11820 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:05:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwqy01202; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18365; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:05:56 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 742605100096001FEPRI; 01 Jan 1996 10:05:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 01 Jan 1996 10:05:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Happy new year. To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/01/96 10:05:26 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 12/31/95 18:30 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Happy new year. Chris, I'll be in London Jan. 29th to Feb. 8th. I'll get you the phone number later. I'll be at ONE location that time. Just off a TUBE station. We WILL have a meal together I would trust?? (ON ME.) MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 13:17:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA29979 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29963 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from beta.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA22260; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:10:59 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:10:59 +0100 Message-Id: <9601012110.AA22260@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Mark Hugo X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To Mark Hugo Hurrah,your reply is the triumph of the arrogance and of aggressiveness respect to a well-mannered request.Thank you. --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 19:57:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22477 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 19:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA22440 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 19:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwsl18969; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14836; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 19:48:57 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 965947190096001FEPRI; 01 Jan 1996 19:47:19 PST Message-Id: Date: 01 Jan 1996 19:47:19 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/01/96 19:47:59 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A *** Reply to note of 01/01/96 10:08 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: a request to vortex-l Whoops, type editing. Should have said, "may it (1996) bring the establishment to its knees". From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 20:48:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA29965 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 20:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA29936 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 20:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-11.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-11.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.11]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA26002 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:34:23 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601020434.PAA26002@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:39:09 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: S Telegraph article Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 31 Dec 95 at 21:10, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip] > Jed points out the clear nuclear effects seen in CF. Yes, of course. It all > makes me wonder if the Casimir effect has no time to work at plasma velocities. > The question in my mind is whether CF etc represents a hole in physics, or just > a minor adjustment being needed. Or whether it means that there are *several* > holes in physics... > > Chris Physics won't be completely explained (i.e. without holes) until everything can be calculated using a combination of whole numbers and transcendental numbers. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 22:49:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA13014 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA12999 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-45.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-45.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.45]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA07117 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:36:06 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601020636.RAA07117@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:40:55 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Meyer et al. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 1 Jan 96 at 9:13, Scott Little wrote: [SNIP] > The last point is a shame. I believe that dissociation via electrolysis > necessarily obeys Faraday's observations and that, in the case of water, 2 > electrons must flow thru the cell in order to liberate one O atom and 2 H > atoms. If Meyer is getting more gas production than his electrical input > would suggest then it would be most interesting to see if this is achieved > by having the "correct" current (for the gas being produced) with an > abnormally low voltage (due presumably to some magic "assist" he has arranged). > > How could his current be lower than the abovementioned value? Meyer says that he achieves what he does with low currents (1-100 mA) and high voltage (10-20 kV). This should be possible, if one considers that each energetic electron might disassociate more than one molecule of water. The only real requirement in disassociating water is that sufficient energy be supplied to break the chemical bonds. However it should be noted that the Hydrogen and Oxygen produced are not separated as they would be if normal electrolysis were used. This separation is what leads to the relationship between produced gas and current, to which you refer. Meyer in fact produces Brown's gas (I believe). The above would however not normally yield O-U energy production. Meyer claims that he does produce O-U, via a process which he attempts to describe, but in my opinion not very successfully. (It appears to be ZPE related). Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 01:13:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA25203 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA25187 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA01322; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:04:18 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:04:18 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? In-Reply-To: <951231142212_100433.1541_BHG37-2@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, don't confuse me with Dick Blue. I am by no means a theorist, and yes, I will accept good experimental evidence and know that if it's unambiguous and "compelling", theory types will come up with explanations, as in fact happened with cluster impact fusion, which turned out to be a dud after all. I knew I risked getting bucketed again, but I still say that all this talk of energetic heliums crashing around and causing x-rays etc flies in the face of the more or less established idea that you don't get such effects from "solid state fusion"; those who believe in "cold fusion" (as a fusion process) have solidly gone for the exotic process that releases the 23 MeV benignly as heat and nothing but heat. This is what I was trying to point out. You might think it reasonable to expect this process to be imperfect - near the metal surface, for example - and thus expect SOME gamma emission, and x-rays etc; but as I said, even a smallish fraction of that 23 MeV, given the excess heat levels claimed, would be easily measured (and in fact dangerous) and have not been measured. I can't of course say where this alleged blue light might come from but you can be sure it's not from nuclear emissions. There is a phenomenon called electrochemical luminescence, but I don't know how intense that can get. Probably not enough to see it with your naked glazzies. The point is, once again: look for a conventional explanation first. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:03:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA17789 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 06:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA17781 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 06:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA05305; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 06:50:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 06:50:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: This'n'that Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: 01 Jan 96 18:45:28 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject:This'n'that Mark, The idea isn't to 'bring the "establishment" to its knees' - though I must admit that I do "have a little list, and they'll none of them be missed". The idea is to advance science and to bring forward new technology, for everybody's benefit - not excluding our own, I hope... I should be delighted to meet you. Free food? Even better. My phone/fax number is (from USA) 011-44-115-925-4308 (from UK) 0115-925-4308 Address 127 Wollaton Vale, Nottingham NG8 2PE. -------------------- Being a scientist? I think the fundamental question is not so much one's level of expertise, but whether science is one's profession or obsession. With myself, I find it only interesting, and I can use its methods and techniques (a bit!). Thus I am very much *not* a scientist. But scientists should note that some of us are like footy supporters. Just because we can't play the game very well does not mean we cannot recognise good and bad players, or are banned from commenting on the standard of play. Science is just another sphere of human activity, the idea that it is immune from comment because outsiders are not practitioners is laughable. I couldn't be Prime Minister, but I can see which ones are even more useless than others at the job! --------------------- Hal, You express surprise at my astonishment over Matthews. What surprised me was that while science correspondents are more than willing to go overboard for the wilder flights of mathematical fantasy which are so characteristic of modern physics (I almost wrote fizzix), it is unusual for any of them to go so far as to suggest that the Griggs device is not some (probably fraudulent) error, or that there is a real prospect for 'free energy' machines. I note that even in the Telegraph articles, CF got trashed not once but twice, and I refuse to accept that there is complete ignorance of the many replications of the F&P heat effects alone. You do realise that you have probably done more to make the thermal effect in CF potentially 'respectable' to science popularisers like Matthews than anybody else on earth? I would also add that my own rude remarks about 'fizzix' do not apply to *anybody* who is looking to show macroscopic real-world experimental effects! And now I hear that the Independent - which as Chris M points out is hardly a 'fun' newspaper - is saying the same thing on the same day. I'll track down a copy and put that in with the Telegraph article. Are we seeing the old order changing? Will 1990-2010 be like 1890-1910? That would be fascinating to watch and maybe lend a small hand in! -------------------------------------------------------- One sad thing is that us old hackers once had to endure listening to those who had just got a home computer and then lectured us on computing. The other sad thing was when it got to the points where these people actually knew more about actually using the damn things than we did. Thus it is that the old in-jokes about 'virtual instruction' sets, like Sharpen Light Pencil Print Snoopy Calendar Update And Delete Record have now been replaced by such as the following stuff, which makes me wince: ALPHA: Software undergoes alpha testing as a first step in getting user feedback. Alpha is Latin for "doesn't work". BETA: Software undergoes beta testing shortly before it's released. Beta is Latin for "still doesn't work". COMPUTER: Instrument of torture. The first computer was invented by Roger "Duffy" Billingsly, a British scientist. In a plot to overthrow Hitler, Duffy disguised himself as a German ally and offered his invention as a gift to the dictator. The plot worked. On April 8, 1945, Hitler became so enraged at the "Incompatible File Format" error message that he shot himself. The war ended soon after Hitler's death, and Duffy began working for IBM. CPU: Central Propulsion Unit. The CPU is the "computer's" engine. It consists of a hard drive, an interface card, and a tiny spinning wheel that's powered by a running rodent --- a gerbil if the machine is a 286 model, a ferret if it's a 386, and a ferret on speed if it's a 486. DEFAULT DIRECTORY: Black Hole. Default directory is where all the files that you need disappear to. ERROR MESSAGE: Terse, baffling remark used by programmers to place blame on users for the program's shortcomings. FILE: A document that has been saved with an unidentifiable name. It helps to think of a file as something stored in a file cabinet --- except when you try to remove the file, the cabinet gives you an electric shock and tells you the file format is unknown (which can kill you, just ask Hitler). HARDWARE: Collective term for any computer-related object that can be kicked or battered when inclined to do so. HELP: The feature that assists in generating more questions. When the Help feature is used correctly, users are able to navigate through a series of Help screens and end up where they started from without learning a damn thing. INPUT/OUTPUT: Information is "input" from the keyboard as intelligible data and "output" to the printer as unrecognizable crap. MEMORY: Of computer components, the most generous in terms of variety, and the skimpiest in terms of quantity. PRINTER: A joke in poor taste. A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray, and the blinking red light. PROGRAMMERS: Computer avengers. Once members of that group of high school nerds who wore tape on their glasses, played Dungeons and Dragons, and memorized "Star Trek" episodes; now millionaires who create "user friendly" software to get revenge on whoever gave them noogies. REFERENCE MANUAL: Object used to raise the monitor to eye level. Also handy to compensate for that short table leg. SCHEDULED RELEASE DATE: A carefully calculated date determined by estimating the actual shipping date and subtracting six months from it. USER FRIENDLY: Of or pertaining to any feature, device, or concept that makes perfect sense to a programmer. USERS: Collective term for those who stare blankly at a monitor. Users are divided into three types: novice, intermediate, and expert. Novice users are those who are afraid that simply pressing a key might break their computer. Intermediate users are those who don't know how to fix their computer after they've just pressed a key that broke it. And expert users are those who break other people's computers. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 08:24:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA28505 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA28498 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA13357 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:10:51 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id LAA02498; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:10:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:10:51 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601021610.LAA02498@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <199512301832.AA04786@power.gpu.com> (message from FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser on Sat, 30 Dec 95 13:31:35 EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FRANK ZNIDARSIC (fznidarsic@gpu.com) said: > A cool non-equlibrium plasma glows blue. Its called a glow > discharge. Actually, a glow discharge is what you see in a "neon" sign. (Neon signs use different gases for different colors, and a lot of argon for a white glow discharge that can be colored by painting the glass. Neon, of course gives a nice red glow.) The blue color you are referring to, I think, occurs when you have a spark discharge in a gas tube, but don't "ignite" a glow discharge. In this case the blue color is due to ballistic impacts between electrons and molecules. The spectrum is sort of constant because you are seeing a very special avalanche condition--the probability of an electron being knocked free equals the probability of capture. Change the conditions a little bit and you either get no discharge, or a transition to glow discharge. (Knock extra electrons free and immediately you have a plasma. The reason spark discharges seem so stable when they occur is that the power supply is inadequate--in current--to support glow discharge. So the voltage across the gap stays at the minimum possible, which is exactly that required for a spark discharge.) > In this type of plasma the electron temperature exceeds the ion > temperature. A hot equlibrium plasma glows white. It is called > an arc discharge. In an arc discharge the kinetic energy of all > the species within the plasma is the same. I don't know the > reasion for the color change. No, a hot equilibrium plasma--and a cold equilibrium plasma--both produce spectral lines characteristic of the atoms in the plasma. An argon or xenon plasma looks white, neon red, mercury blue-green, sodium yellow, etc. Even if most of the emissions are from multiply ionized atoms, those lines are mostly in the UV or X-ray region, and the visible spectrum still seems normal. Danger, Will Robinson... But if you want to look at the visible spectrum under those conditions, you need VERY good UV filtering or you will get welder's flash, especially if you have blue or light colored eyes. This is very ungood. If you get it you will wake up in the middle of the night with your eyes hurting so bad you can't open them. If you only have a mild case, go make some tea, drink it if you feel like it, but put the tea bags--after they cool--on your eyelids and let the tannic acid seep into your eyes through the tears. Or you can keep tannic acid in a specially shaped container in your medicine cabinet along with an eyecup. Dr. Reese, then head of the Will's Eye Hospital recommended the first approach--since you can't open your eyes, you want to KNOW what you are putting into them. I only had this happen once, and it wasn't my fault. We got a new batch of welder's goggles, and after my bout of welder's flash we tested them. Turned out that the side air vents that were designed as light traps had surfaces that reflected seventy per cent of near UV. Since it took five reflections to get through the trap and off the lenses, it wasn't too bad, but it was enough. The manufacturer hadn't had any complaints because welders seldom look away from their work. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 09:13:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA05376 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA05364 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p6.aa.net (s3c0p6.aa.net [204.157.220.138]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA02736 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:58:51 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601021658.IAA02736@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 20:58:13 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: COMPUTER VIRUS ALERT??? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:49 AM 12/29/95 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > >Scan your computer for the following viruses: > another virus alert!!! TINSLEY VIRUS: keeps upchucking off-the-wall oneliners at odd moments; has preference for technical email newsgropes; no known cure once infected; apparantly the virus manifests in the ZBP (zero bit point between bytes)and cannot be dislodged by electromagnetic or digital means, only complete disconnection of modem is known to temininate the appearance. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 10:39:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA14000 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mom.hooked.net (root@[199.2.134.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA13930 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (rgeorge@webe.hooked.net [206.80.6.44]) by mom.hooked.net (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA23154 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:54:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199601021754.JAA23154@mom.hooked.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Russ George" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:56:34 +0000 Subject: Re: vtx: our cell's first run Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.22) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Your experiments are interesting have you thought of trying to test for the null hypothesis. What does it take to emulate the CETI results. One can often learn almost as much by screwing up an experiment as you can by doing it correctly. Surely your alumina beads are a good bed for depositing more Pd to acheive a better layer. Perhaps Dieter Britz can suggest a rough and ready means to do so. A standard gold immersion plating recipe is 30 grains gold chloride, 1/2 ounce potasssium ferrocyanide, 1/2 ounce caustic soda, 1/2 ounce salt, and 1 pint distilled water. You use this at 170-180 F and simple dip the target material into the solution. You make it work by including some small pieces of zinc mixed in with the target material. Plating is quick and simple and I suspect substituting Pd for the gold would work. To deposit nickle take 5 1/2 ounces of Nickle ammonium sulfate and mix it into 1 gallon of distilled water. Use hot. No brainer tech. Russ George From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 12:56:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01655 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01625 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-162.austin.eden.com (net-1-187.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.187]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA12332 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:40:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:40:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601021940.NAA12332@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Hello Russ George X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Welcome to Vortex, Russ. Thanks for yr comments: >Your experiments are interesting have you thought of trying to test >for the null hypothesis. What does it take to emulate the CETI >results. One can often learn almost as much by screwing up an >experiment as you can by doing it correctly. I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting....my cell is presently a null experiment. To make mine "look" like the CETI cell I'd need a 1 kw heater hidden inside the cell. >To deposit nickle take 5 1/2 ounces of Nickle ammonium sulfate and >mix it into 1 gallon of distilled water. Use hot. This sounds like an "electroless" bath I've read about. I'm woefully short on applied chemistry. Isn't it necessary for electroless plating to take the substrate metal into account?...or is it possible to concoct a solution which will deposit a given metal onto ANY other metal? BTW, I'm sure the group would love to hear a brief summary of your recent work on the E-Quest ultrasonic CF cell. Thanks Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:20:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA16160 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA16100 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA32176 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:28:15 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:07:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just a thought: the key to the blue discharge may be from sulpher due to the sulphate, which can produce a deep blue color when oxidized. Possibly there is some sulpher/oxygen recombination going on in the vicinity of the cathode. I don't know why, though. It seems like that sort of thing would be expected more at the anode. Maybe a Li+ or H+ recombination with an SO4-- can trigger a blue emission? Spectography would tell the tale quickly. Also, maybe just a simple test of electrolysis of Li2SO4 in the dark would be useful. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:59:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA22972 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mom.hooked.net (root@[199.2.134.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA22957 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (rgeorge@worm.hooked.net [206.80.6.43]) by mom.hooked.net (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA02910 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:44:11 -0800 Message-Id: <199601022144.NAA02910@mom.hooked.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Russ George" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:46:12 +0000 Subject: Re: vtx: Hello Russ George Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.22) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To test some of the obvious questions with the CETI cell you could test to see what various thermocouple placement can do to change the apparent heat, change the flows, and try to exclude air. If none of these can make the heat appear at the scale claimed then perhaps the effect is a good one. As you know I'm not a skeptic on excess heat. What this field needs are working experiments that incorporate blanks and failures along with the good results. It is very hard to tell whether something is real if you cannot it fail. The electroless deposition does indeed work on just about any metal so the technique is pretty simple. Granted Jim Patterson is an artist at this and others might have some considerable stumbling around before they can match his results but the gulf shouldn't be very wide. Our experiments at E-Quest are going very well. We will have some announcements to make sometime in the next few months. In my experience it is not worthwhile revealing ones serious work on the internet zoo. Last time I tried I was swamped with crackpot responses from idiots. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 16:46:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA23512 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA23459 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA23000; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:31:18 -0500 Date: 02 Jan 96 19:30:14 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Message-ID: <960103003013_100433.1541_BHG69-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Dieter writes: "Chris, don't confuse me with Dick Blue. I am by no means a theorist, and yes, I will accept good experimental evidence and know that if it's unambiguous and "compelling", theory types will come up with explanations, as in fact happened with cluster impact fusion, which turned out to be a dud after all." Oh, I won't. Richard clearly believes that lack of adequate theory of itself invalidates all CF results. I hope you won't feel I'm being rude about 'absent friends' if I say that I genuinely do wonder what it must be like inside a mind that works that way. But I equally genuinely feel that it requires all kinds to advance science etc, and that Richard has probably spent his career advancing his own corner of science. "I knew I risked getting bucketed again, but I still say that all this talk of energetic heliums crashing around and causing x-rays etc flies in the face of the more or less established idea that you don't get such effects from "solid state fusion"; those who believe in "cold fusion" (as a fusion process) have solidly gone for the exotic process that releases the 23 MeV benignly as heat and nothing but heat. This is what I was trying to point out." Fair enough, I reckon. I'm in no mood to 'bucket' anybody. I don't agree that CF people are solidly behind d + d -> 4He + 24MeV of heat - after all, how many here are like that? Damn few, if any. Judging by this group, there are as many ideas as people! Obviously, the d-d fusion boyos are going to insist on hidden emissions. Personally, if there is 4He, I'd go for a highly complex process involving d absorbtion by the metal nuclei and subsequent alpha emissions - ol' momma nature she shurely done lurve makin' alphas - but "I'm just this guy, you know?" "You might think it reasonable to expect this process to be imperfect - near the metal surface, for example - and thus expect SOME gamma emission, and x-rays etc; but as I said, even a smallish fraction of that 23 MeV, given the excess heat levels claimed, would be easily measured (and in fact dangerous) and have not been measured." An excellent point. I'd not looked at it that way before. But then I was never a great fan of d-d fusion. Reality is always so much more complicated than we expect when we start out, innit? "I can't of course say where this alleged blue light might come from but you can be sure it's not from nuclear emissions." Dieter, I'd like to be sure of anything. I have great confidence in the atomic theory of matter, but not in much else. Certainly I think it would be wrong to dismiss any possibilities at this stage. Anyway, all that would be proven if it *were* Cerenkov radiation is that something was moving pretty damned fast, and there may be other ways than nuclear to get an electron up to [> c-in-water]. "There is a phenomenon called electrochemical luminescence, but I don't know how intense that can get. Probably not enough to see it with your naked glazzies. The point is, once again: look for a conventional explanation first." Hey! Tread gently, for you tread on my dreams! I rarely treat myself to the luxury of unbridled speculation, but - sheesh - it *was* Christmas! Do I have to play with my bat straight for the full 366 days of 1996? Even us wild-eyed hereticks get to let our hair down occasionally. OK, the electrochemical luminescence thing sounds good. Is it fully explained and wrapped up in a pink ribbon? I bet everybody here would like you to tell us more, this could even be some kind of link? And a happy new year to you and all youse guys in the fair country of Denmark. Don't forget, if *we* win this game, *everybody* wins. Even -db- wins! Michael writes: TINSLEY VIRUS: "keeps upchucking off-the-wall oneliners at odd moments; has preference for technical email newsgropes;" Newsgropes. Now *there's* a nice word. Are you thinking of ones like the infamous alt.erotica.bestiality.hamster.ducttape? "no known cure once infected; apparantly the virus manifests in the ZBP (zero bit point between bytes)and cannot be dislodged by electromagnetic or digital means, only complete disconnection of modem is known to temininate the appearance." Well, I asked for that, I suppose. But - "off-the-wall one-liners"? Moi? Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 01:42:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA04464 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 01:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA04458 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 01:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c0p1.aa.net (s1c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.165]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA21076 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 01:32:00 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601030932.BAA21076@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 13:31:24 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Meyer et al. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:58 AM 12/31/95 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > >Frank writes:. > > "I saw in the BBC tape the invention of Stanley Myer. His cell > produces excess hydrogen." > >Meyer *claims* that. There are hints that suggest he has something strange. >On the other hand, he is a very difficult man to deal with, the UK Dept of >Trade and Industry has apparently warned UK firms about him, and NOBODY gets >near his equipment with a meter. In other words, we trust him about as far >as we could spit a rat. It was not a BBC documentary, it was done by the >InCa company for Channel 4 Television's Equinox science series. > >By the way, I *did* send a PAL format tape to Hal and Scott by airmail >before Christmas, it should be there now or very soon. I am still in shock >from seeing the way the Sunday Telegraph approach 'free energy'! > > "Perhaps CETI and E-quest are also producing some excess hydrogen. > This hydrogen then recombines on the catalytic surface producing a > blueish glow. Hydrogen flames burn blue, I believe." > >Yes, they do. But - under water? It would be good to have a spectral >analysis. That would, I think, help a lot.... > >Chris > Yes Chris, that is the beauty of burning hydrogen with oxygen. You can recombine them (burn is a lousy word) under water, in a vacuum, where ever. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 12:19:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA15797 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca ([142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA15775 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA13482; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:50:00 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601031950.AA13482@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: vtx: A question for Hal... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:50:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Hal, I have a question for you. Do you make any attempt to incorporate Elementary Particle Physiscs ideas into your inertia theories? The Standard Model of Particle Physics has mass arising as the effect of interactions with the Universal Higgs-field. Thanks, Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 14:14:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA17648 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA17625 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA28513 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:00:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id PAA06380; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:00:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:00:33 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601032000.PAA06380@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: (message from Dieter Britz on Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:20:23 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz said: > But you can't have it both ways; you can't now invoke the radiation and > play with it. Either you have a radiationless fusion process, or some > other exotic process (in this group, ZPE is invoked) that is not fusion - > and then, there would not be any helium, right? Ah, but several of us pointed out at the time that if the process taking place was Pd + D --> Ag, then you would have low energy gammas. (There are similar channels with Ni.) If someone is seeing a blue glow, which you would expect from low-energy gammas in water, then this potential channel needs to be checked. However, I think that the source of the glow is the same as in sonoluminescence: bubbles being squeezed out of existance. But in the CETI device they would be crushed between two microspheres. Additional information that has appeared here makes this seem even more likely. If the spheres are under compression, and gas bubbles preferentially form between two spheres pressed together, you will get a bubble that forms, gets squeezed to an annulus, then collapses. (What you need for this to work is to have an insulating film form on two spheres--generated gas will do. Now you have sufficient voltage and current concentrated at a single point to cause rapid electrolysis.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 15:50:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA14378 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA14351 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:31:51 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA16398 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:30:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:30:28 -0500 Message-ID: <960103173027_105562624@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A question for Hal... Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin, Our paper on inertia (Phys Rev A vol 49, p. 678, Feb '94), and my previous paper on gravity (Phys Rev A vol 39, p. 2333, Mar '89) argue that the quark masses, which constitute the gravitational and inertial masses, derive from quark-ZPE interactions. Thus we hypothesize that it is the ZPE rather than the Higgs field that plays the role of inducing mass; the hypothetical Higgs field is actualized in the ZPE, in our view. The "parton" model of quarks is as close as we needed to get to the Standard Model. Hal From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 02:41:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA13909 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA13896 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA02112; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:11:23 -0500 Date: 03 Jan 96 21:52:54 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Martin not going?!? Message-ID: <960104025253_72240.1256_EHB119-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Over on s.p.f. Martin Sevior announced that the trip to N.M. is off: "As some of you may remember I planned to visit Dennis Cravens lab in New Mexico in early January. Circumstances have changed sufficiently for me to decide to cancel the trip. Let me add that at no stage did Dennis Cravens say 'you're not welcome, don't come'." So what happened?!? Bad weather? Other obligations? Is anyone going? That's rotten news for me. I was counting on Martin's report to fill out my article for Infinite Energy. Postitive or negative, I wanted someone else's observations. I particularly wanted some info from a quiet, laboratory setting where careful uninterrupted work could be done. Please tell us what happened, Martin, if it isn't too personal. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 02:46:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA09604 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA09580 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA13371; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:01:53 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:01:53 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Cerenkov? Really? In-Reply-To: <199601032000.PAA06380@spectre.mitre.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Dieter Britz said: > > > But you can't have it both ways; you can't now invoke the radiation and > > play with it. Either you have a radiationless fusion process, or some > > other exotic process (in this group, ZPE is invoked) that is not fusion - > > and then, there would not be any helium, right? > > Ah, but several of us pointed out at the time that if the process > taking place was Pd + D --> Ag, then you would have low energy gammas. > (There are similar channels with Ni.) How low? Originally, F&P thought they had dd fusion leading to tritium and 3He, and had very little XS heat. These reactions emit about 2 MeV, if I remember rightly. It was said that if it were conventional dd fusion, F&P would be dead. We now have claims of an order of magnitude (or more) more heat, so even these more exotic reactions would, I think, be potentially dangerous, not to mention measurable. I am also told that the Coulomb barrier is even more astronomically high for large nuclei. There are a few reports of people looking for products of such reactions, and they have not found any; one has to admit though that the results are ambiguous so the idea can't be rejected either, i.e. they haven't NOT found any such products, either. > If someone is seeing a blue glow, which you would expect from > low-energy gammas in water, then this potential channel needs to be > checked. Bockris has written a paper on sparking at the metal/electrolyte interface, and his theory of cold fusion, the dendrite theory, is based on them, more or less. Although at that interface, you only have a few volts at most, you also have a very small gap of the order of nm, so the field gradient is high. If you got a gas film, you might see sparking just from that. In fact, I know someone who sees that regularly (he prefers to remain anonymous, as far as I know). These sparks, by the way, or field gradients, do not explain fusion. The dendrite theory says that deuterons get accelerated to high energies across the field but the fact is that these energies cannot be more than a few eV, not enough. This was pointed out by - dare I mention him? - Frank Close. So the dendrite theory is wrong, but sparking you can get. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 09:20:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA21871 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 07:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA21811 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 07:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-126.austin.eden.com (net-1-126.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.126]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.3.1) with SMTP id JAA23569 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:45:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:45:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601041545.JAA23569@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Martin not going?!? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There's nothing sinister going on. Cravens simply doesn't have the big PowerGen cell anymore because he had to send it back to CETI. Martin &/or I may still end up going to visit Cravens when he gets his next cell working. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 10:03:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA07623 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07559 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA09816; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:24:14 -0500 Date: 04 Jan 96 12:21:40 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit Message-ID: <960104172140_72240.1256_EHB59-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex After talking to various people I have learned that the big demonstration cell CETI showed at Power-Gen is not in Dennis Cravens' lab. It is in another location, being tested by somebody else. That is a big fat disappointment for me, because I was hoping that Martin Sevior would get a chance to test the thing. I wanted to quote his findings, positive or negative, in the article I am writing Infinite Energy, in order to flesh out some details and to show another perspective. I was hoping that he would get a chance to do some calibrations I was not able to perform. I recommended Sevior to Dennis and to the people at CETI, and I thought we had a nice visit arranged. Now they turn around and tell me the equipment will not be available. Dennis has not got another cell up and running yet. I think Martin has to leave the States fairly soon. That's a fine kettle of fish! I must say that in the past CETI has been fairly cooperative and open, but lately they have been clamming up and giving me a bad time. At Power-Gen they were reluctant at first to let me take temperature readings. I told them that it was essential I verify the three parameters: power in, flow, and temperature. Otherwise I would report that I cannot tell if the gadget is working or not. With this relatively crude calorimeter, unless I can verify essential parameters externally and independently, I can draw no firm conclusion. Since I *was* able to independently test it, I am satisfied it was massively over-unity, but they did not make it any easier. CETI has taken a new, less-cooperative stance because they are negotiating with and working with large corporations that have asked them to take a low profile. While I understand that, and I appreciate the need for business-like control over corporate information, I still think this stance is counterproductive. They are overdoing it. Frankly I think they are shooting themselves in the feet. In computer lingo I would say they have reset their cooperation bit; they should re-enable the feature. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 11:10:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA18433 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA18316 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxcc15199; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04342; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:31:17 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 940630100096004FEPRI; 04 Jan 1996 10:30:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 04 Jan 1996 10:30:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/04/96 10:30:05 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/04/96 10:03 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit Jed: I think the positive aspect on this is that it gives some people (me) time to "catch up". And I can assure you, I will be open about my results. I live in MINNESOTA..... Let me translate that for the wider world: This is a place where "global warming" would be greeted with three cheers! It is a max of 7 degrees F today and a low tonight below zero and this will continue for some time. I see the outline from what you saw in CA, Jed, to a home heater in short order. Phooey on dealing with the "large corporations". Listen, think of the Compacs, AST's, Gold Stars, NEC's etc, and think of IBM, Univac, Control Data. Did not IBM, FunnyVac and Controlled Data have Phd's, did not they have fat salaried executives, and did they not ALL IGNORE, ridicule, and treat "personal computers" shabbily during the '80's? Where are they now? I'll give it to you: IBM, down to 140,000 employees from 300,000----Control Data, a SHELL of it's former self, about 800 people down from 8,000 in 1980. Funny Vac, down to about 2,000 from something like 12,000 at one time. SAME THING WILL HAPPEN WITH GAS COMPANIES, OIL COMPANIES, etc. THINK PC and then think the way CF will be started and grow. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 08:43:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA15711 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 07:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA15677 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 07:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxbo19925; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30973; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 07:02:14 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 093901070096004FEPRI; 04 Jan 1996 07:01:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 04 Jan 1996 07:01:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Martin not going?!? To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/04/96 07:01:38 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/04/96 02:41 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Martin not going?!? I would tend to agree with Jed. I think Martin is not necessarily a believer, more of a "doubting Thomas". I would therefore appreciate his visiting Dennis at his lab. Martin, is it MONEY? That can be fixed. Anyway you could be convinced to squeeze this visit in? My going wouldn't be worth a thing, because although I think I can be objective, I would be classified as a "be- liever". - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 18:27:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA22722 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA22710 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:18:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512280218.SAA22710@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA296957239; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:20:39 -0700 From: Ron McFee Subject: vtx: Patents and CF To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 27 Dec 95 19:20:39 MST Cc: mcfee@lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I recently found a book on patent law in the new book section of our Lab Library. It had a 1995 copyright and since I haven't studied the subject for many years, I read a few of the chapters. When I was in graduate school several years ago I read a couple of books on the subject so that while I know a little of patent law I am no expert and will defer to more informed opinion. However I was surprised to see that patent law, US and foreign, has considerably changed and should be effecting the subject of cold fusion in ways that it is not. For example US patent protection is valid from the time that the patent is awarded until twenty years "from the time of filing." I assume that this is similar to most patents of nations which are signatories to the recent General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade treaty. Since real patent protection is made by filing, there now is no real incentive for an inventor to be secretive about what he has already filed. Indeed it is to his advantage to have his basic invention developed as soon as possible so that he can collect real royalties as quickly as possible. In the case of the basic Pons Fleischmann patent which I believe to be held by ENECO there is now only slightly thirteen years of potential coverage left. So why all the secrecy from a company like CETI? The longer it takes to develop their inventions the less value they will have. Why isn't ENECO, which has an obvious interference on CETI, not requiring that CETI make real public demonstrations to the patent office and other interested parties? Hey, Fred Jaeger are you a real business man or just a slick hustler? Get busy and make Jim Patterson break the US patent logjam and open the research in this business! Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 13:03:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA06532 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06468 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA15484 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:19:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199601042019.AA15484@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:19:45 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: CETI shou Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 15:19:04 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 04 Jan 1996 10:30:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/04/96 10:30:05 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com *** Reply to note of 01/04/96 10:03 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit Jed: I think the positive aspect on this is that it gives some people (me) me to "catch up". And I can assure you, I will be open about my results. I live in MINNESOTA..... Let me translate that for the wider world: This is a place where "global warming" would be greeted with three cheers! It is a max of 7 degrees F today and a low tonight below zero and this will continue for some time. I see the outline from what you saw in CA, Jed, to a home heater in short order. Phooey on dealing with the "large corporations". Listen, think of the Compacs, AST's, Gold Stars, NEC's etc, and think of IBM, Univac, Control Data. Did not IBM, FunnyVac and Controlled Data have Phd's, did not they have fat salaried executives, and did they not ALL IGNORE, ridicule, and treat "personal computers" shabbily during the '80's? Where are they now? I'll give it to you: IBM, down to 140,000 employees from 300,000----Control Data, a SHELL of it's former self, about 800 people down from 8,000 in 1980. Funny Vac, down to about 2,000 from something like 12,000 at one time. SAME THING WILL HAPPEN WITH GAS COMPANIES, OIL COMPANIES, etc. THINK PC and then think the way CF will be started and grow. MDH You are so wrong. I was at the CETI demo. Traveled there at the expense of my company the General Public Utilities Corp. The CETI cell is getting attention from the top levels of management. We are working on a strategy. I'm showing my info to the VP's next week. Top management from our corpora te office 500 miles from where I am has become involved. We don't want to crush it. We want to be a part of it. I'm getting support from all levels of management. Monday we have the excutive conf room booked. I going to show the tape of the CETI demo to middle management. The tape of the UK show "It runs on water" is having a huge impact. Frank Znidarsic PE Station Electrical Engineer Conemaugh Generating Station From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 15:06:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA28236 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA28209 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA14914; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:37:40 -0500 Date: 04 Jan 96 17:34:05 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Better CF videos available Message-ID: <960104223405_72240.1256_EHB82-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Frank: You say "the tape of the UK show 'It runs on water' is having a huge impact" over at General Public Utilities Corp. I am delighted to hear that. Frankly, I am also a little surprised, because I was not impressed by the program. It wasn't bad, but it did not have much serious scientific content. There have been two other videos made about CF by the BBC and CBC: "The Secret Life of Cold Fusion" and "Too Close to The Sun." I thought they had more content and more hard facts. They showed a lot more lab equipment, which I enjoy looking at. Have you got copies of them Frank? Do you think you need them to make your point? I only have one copy of each one left, and I don't have a master for "Too Close. . ." Perhaps I can lend you copies if you would like. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 18:12:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA02661 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mom.hooked.net (root@mom.hooked.net [206.80.6.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA02637 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from get.hooked.net (webe-17.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.17]) by mom.hooked.net (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA16863 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:59:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199601050159.RAA16863@mom.hooked.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Russ George" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:58:41 +0000 Subject: vtx: CETI light emission Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could the well established "electrochemical light" phenomenon which is tied to recombination be the answer to the CETI glow. I don't think one has to look too far for an explanation here. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 18:39:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA05991 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA05953 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA17693; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:23:24 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601050223.AA17693@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:23:24 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <960104172140_72240.1256_EHB59-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 4, 96 12:21:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Jed writes: > > After talking to various people I have learned that the big demonstration cell > CETI showed at Power-Gen is not in Dennis Cravens' lab. It is in another > location, being tested by somebody else. That is a big fat disappointment for > me, because I was hoping that Martin Sevior would get a chance to test the > thing. I wanted to quote his findings, positive or negative, in the article I > am writing Infinite Energy, in order to flesh out some details and to show > another perspective. I was hoping that he would get a chance to do some > calibrations I was not able to perform. I recommended Sevior to Dennis and to > the people at CETI, and I thought we had a nice visit arranged. Now they turn > around and tell me the equipment will not be available. Dennis has not got > another cell up and running yet. I think Martin has to leave the States fairly > soon. That's a fine kettle of fish! > HI Everyone, sorry for extreme lack of content in the spf post. I had to rush home and help pack. I'm moving house within Vancouver tonight and my wife and 2 year old are off the Calgary to visit relatives.( I acquired a Canadian wife in my 8 years in Vancouver before I moved to back to oz). Anyway this is just to explain the delay and lack of detail. The people on this server deserve a bit more of the story. Basically Jed has got it right. The POWERGEN cell has moved for good corporate reasons which MAY have nothing to do with hiding it from us. Still it would have been nice if they'd waited a couple of weeks. I invested a lot of time and a reasonable sum of money planning a pretty thorough test of the system. Just for the record and in case anyone else gets their hands on it, I've included our planned protocol in this message. If the flow calorimetry, the reservoir temperature and the tent test all agree on heat production it would have been very, very difficult to explain away. If this had all worked I wonder whether Deiter would have concluded that the CETI cells do produce excess heat? Anyway I remain agnostic but extremely intrigued. I can't imagine how a conventional process could possibly explain Jed's data on the POWERGEN demo BUT the temperature difference (17 C) and the presumed power consumption of the pump 25 watts, are in the right ball park for a theoretically perfect heat pump to produce about a 1 kilowatt heat flow. I'd be very interested to hear whether Frank's company, GPU, gets their own high power cell to play with. There's more to the story from Scott and my perspective too. Unfortunately Dennis Cravens also doesn't want to this on the internet for some strange reason but we're not yet totally denied. For the record here is what we would have tried to do...... Buy a log book. Purchase Radio Shack thermister probes. Mulitmters. <2 from Scott> Current Resistors: 2 mercury thermometers. Purchase battery connectors and 6 "D" cells. Calibrate thermisters against thermocouples. Find/buy portable high precision digitial volt-Ohm meter. Buy black tape. Tent for NLC Calorimeter. Heating elements for tent calibration and high power varian. Build a battery pack allowing 1.5 - 9 V input. Find a number of styrofoam cups. Find a good sample vial. Make the tent at TRIUMF. If possible characterize tent's performance here at TRIUMF. Dummy cell with > 200 watt joule heater. 2 Flow meters. One for CETI cell one for the control cell. Various connectors for 3/8 inch tygon tubing. At NM. 1. Draw a schematic of the demo fluid flow. Include the diameter of the tubes and the lengths of the tubes between different objects. The resevoir, the lengths of the cooling tower, length to the inlet of the cell, length from the return cell back to the reservoir. If there are any surprises re-evaluate the setup. 2. Get the demo going with a Joule heater in the "control cell" bay. Install the flow meter. 3. Add the 1 Ohm resistor in series to the input power line. 4. Add the 1 Ohm resitor in series to the electrolysis line. 5. After the pump is running but without electrolysis current, measure the heating through the cell by pump pressure. 6. Measure the temperature in the reservoir with just the pump going. 7. Check that the RS probes match the thermocouples, divert water into the cups and see if the temperature readings match the thermocouples. 8. Turn on the Aux heaters. Observe the temperature rise in the resevoir and before and after the cell as a function of time. 9. See if the trick of measuring the tube temperature outside the tube with the RS probes works. Measure the difference in temperature between the thermocouples and the probes at the same location. 10. If the trick works then: After everything is in steady state measure the temperature at selected points along tubing. Particularly just before the inlet to the resevoir. 11. Turn off the aux heaters. Observe the temperture decrease along the tubing as a function of time. 12. Calibrate the flow calorimeter as a function of heat output of the Joule heater and over a selected range of flow rates. 13. Allow the demo to settle back into ambient mode. 14. Turn on the electrolysis current and whatever extra heat is required from the Aux heaters to get the cell to work. Measure electrolysis input power. Observe the temperature changes as a function of time. If the Cell turns on, turn off the Aux. heaters and observe the temperature changes. 15. If there is a temperature change make sure to record the temperature rise in the reservoir and the temperature just before the reservoir. 16. Once a dT is established across the cell, check it against the RS probes and mercury thermometers. Divert water into the cups for these tests. Use the trick to measure the temperature of the tubes outside. 17. Record measurements as a function of time and the flow rates at random intervals if we don't have a flow meter. 18. After an hour of these tests switch electrolysis source to the battery pack. Measure the power input. Record measurements as a function of time and the flow rates at random intervals if we don't have a flow meter. 19. Turn off everything but the muffin fan. Setup the tent over the whole demo. Move the meters outside the tent. Put the calibration light bulbs into the tent. Stick the RS probe in through the top of the tent. 20. Calibrate the tent with the heating elements and fan running. 21. Turn off the light bulbs, turn on the pump. Measure the heat output and check it agrees with the power input. 22. Turn on Aux heaters in the reservoir. Measure the heat output and check it agrees with the power input. 23. Turn off Aux heaters. Allow the system to cool down to temperature observed at 18. 24. Turn on electrolysis current. Measure and temperature rise as a function of time. Correlate with any dT measured across the active cell. 25. Measure tent power output from the tent and the dT from cell for as long as we have time. 26. Write up the results! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 21:14:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA01253 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA01246 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA21703; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:01:02 -0500 Date: 05 Jan 96 00:00:31 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: Vortex list Subject: vtx: CETI shou Message-ID: <960105050030_75110.3417_CHK49-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frank, >> I was at the CETI demo. Traveled there at the expense of my company the General Public Utilities Corp. The CETI cell is getting attention from the top levels of management. We are working on a strategy. << I think the point Mark was trying to make is that the overblown companies don't know what to do with emerging technologies. They may be very well aware of them, but try to apply them in the same old way -- and miss the boat. I can imagine the small CETI cells being applied by these overblown companies to central heating systems for buildings -- instead of room or smaller area heaters. I can imagine Ford or GM using them in a car as a single power plant (with attendant drive shafts) instead of a small units located directly where the power is needed. I can imagine a large company first converting the heat energy into electricity, then using the electricity to drive blowers, pumps, washing machines, refrigerators, etc. Marks idea, if I'm reading him correctly, was that smaller (read: 2-10 person) companies are able to come up with products and techniques which will blow any products from the overblown companies out of the water. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 21:22:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA02636 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA02587 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA24470; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:06:56 -0500 Date: 05 Jan 96 00:03:05 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Martin's plans break my heart Message-ID: <960105050304_72240.1256_EHB136-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Martin and Scott have spelled out a beautiful plan here, starting with: "Buy a log book. Purchase Radio Shack thermistor probes. " Oh, this breaks my heart! This is *exactly* what we need, in all respects. And this is what CETI needs too! Maybe Scott should talk to them again and try to pound some sense into their heads. What they are doing in Florida is not as valuable as this proposed test regime. They should put that work on hold and hand the cell over to M&S (or S&M) for a week. Martin also writes: "The POWERGEN cell has moved for good corporate reasons which MAY have nothing to do with hiding it from us." No, it has nothing to do with hiding it. "Still it would have been nice if they'd waited a couple of weeks. I invested a lot of time and a reasonable sum of money planning a pretty thorough test of the system." Damn straight! They own Martin an apology, or better yet a air ticket to Florida. This behavior is not businesslike. They should apologize to me, too. My credibility with Martin and others is hurt by this. What the heck did they tell me to please invite him for?!? They have done this to me *twice* in the last month. It is disorganized and rude. It's like dealing with software tech support. "There's more to the story from Scott and my perspective too. Unfortunately Dennis Cravens also doesn't want to this on the internet for some strange reason but we're not yet totally denied." Dennis does not get Internet, so *I* say tell us if you want to. I love to hear stories about strange reasons. I am getting fed up with Dennis. He is a fine fellow and a crackerjack scientist, but he and CETI have dropped the ball, badly, twice in a row. They are only human and everyone makes mistakes, but I hate to see such fine people screw up. The Power-Gen demo could have been a triumph, but it was muddled and second rate. Third rate! Gene's first comment on seeing the photos was "why couldn't they straighten out those hoses?" That's how I felt. Why did it have to look unprofessional? George Miley's first comment to me was "what a shame, why didn't they use proper instruments?" Mind you, he did not deny that the instruments were good enough to prove the point. We talked about it at length between the meetings. I asked, and he never said: "I can't tell if the heat is real or not." He just said what I say: it isn't professional, and coming from Cravens that is a shock and a disappointment. My goodness, if they had make half the effort they made at ICCF5 they would have swept everyone at the whole Trade Show off his feet. I know -- we all know -- why it was unprofessional. They were pressed for time; poor Dennis is dreadfully overworked; they have this complicated politically oriented marketing scheme where they want to attract some attention but not too much attention; and some of their big gun research partners asked them to keep make a low key presentation. I think it was a mistake to accede to their wishes. I have seen many companies do second rate, unprofessional marketing because of politics: turf wars, pressure from customers, jealousy, fear of cannibalizing other product lines, etc. People should not let politics interfere with doing a good job. Well, the story is not over. They are good people and I am confident they will get their act together, maybe after Dennis gets a rest. They did well at ICCF5 and SOFE. They say they plan to have a small number of cells to distribute to scientists by March. I think that is the target date. I do not know who they plan to give the cells to. As I said here earlier, they said they planned to make 8 or 10 cells. I told them they should make 8 or 10 thousand. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 21:38:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA06011 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA05979 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-220.austin.eden.com (net-1-220.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.220]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.3.1) with SMTP id XAA12163 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:24:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:24:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601050524.XAA12163@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI light emission X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Russ said: >Could the well established "electrochemical light" phenomenon which >is tied to recombination be the answer to the CETI glow. I don't >think one has to look too far for an explanation here. Russ, can you give us a brief tutorial on this phenomena...or a reference for further study. I always just assumed that light emission would be virtually impossible...that the "new" water molecule would have all the heat of reaction tied up in rotational and vibrational states (i.e. heat). Thanks From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 21:41:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA07052 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA07047 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tY4ig-0005Q9C; Thu, 4 Jan 96 23:29 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Martin's plans break my heart To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:29:38 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960105050304_72240.1256_EHB136-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 5, 96 00:03:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > What the heck did they tell me to please invite him for?!? That is callous. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 00:10:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA10001 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA09994 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA18234; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:02 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601050803.AA18234@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Martin's plans break my heart To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <960105050304_72240.1256_EHB136-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 5, 96 00:03:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed writes: > > Martin and Scott have spelled out a beautiful plan here, starting with: > Thanks for the vote of confidence Jed. On the other front, things are still fluid and after the debacle of the POWERGEN cell, I want to be sure of everything from the President himself. If it works I'll have to sign some sort of secrecy agreement so you may have to wait for news from me anyway. I have been amazed that CETI does not give it's chief Scientist, (Cravens) more technical support. A single technician would do wonders for his productivity. I don't why Dennis doesn't like the internet, if I get the chance to drink some beers with him one day I'll ask. Martin Sevior. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 01:16:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA21885 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA21875 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p6.aa.net (s3c2p6.aa.net [204.157.220.154]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA12104 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:58:56 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601050858.AAA12104@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 12:59:40 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Martin's plans break my heart Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Well, the story is not over. They are good people and I am confident they >will get their act together, maybe after Dennis gets a rest. They did well >at ICCF5 and SOFE. They say they plan to have a small number of cells to >distribute to scientists by March. I think that is the target date. I do not >know who they plan to give the cells to. As I said here earlier, they said >they planned to make 8 or 10 cells. I told them they should make 8 or 10 >thousand. > >- Jed > Thank you Jed for your coverage of this whole affair. I have really enjoyed your perspective. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 06:09:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA19309 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 05:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root@clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA19300 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 05:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA18364; Fri, 5 Jan 96 08:56:20 EST Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 08:56:20 EST Message-Id: <9601051356.AA18364@clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI light emission X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Russ George said: >Could the well established "electrochemical light" phenomenon which >is tied to recombination be the answer to the CETI glow. I don't >think one has to look too far for an explanation here. > This "blue light" thing seems to be a recurring theme with these O/U devices. Sort of reminiscent of the blue steam that everyone noted coming off the Griggs pump. Whatever happened to that question? Did Griggs ever turn out the lights to check if this was an emission or some strange absorption effect? Jed, did you and Marshall D. ever get back to Rome to do the further tests that were talked about? Gary From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 06:23:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA21116 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA21102 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA12364 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:10:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199601051410.AA12364@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:10:24 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: Better CF Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 09:09:37 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 04 Jan 96 17:34:05 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Better CF videos available Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: Vortex Frank: You say "the tape of the UK show 'It runs on water' is having a huge impact" over at General Public Utilities Corp. I am delighted to hear that. Frankly, I am also a little surprised, because I was not impressed by the program. It wasn't bad, but it did not have much serious scientific content. There have been two other videos made about CF by the BBC and CBC: "The Secret Life of Cold Fusion" and "Too Close to The Sun." I thought they had more content and more hard facts. They showed a lot more lab equipment, which I enjoy looking at. Have you got copies of them Frank? Do you think you need them to make your point? I only have one copy of each one left, and I don't have a master for "Too Close. . ." Perhaps I can lend you copies if you would like. - Jed Thank you Jed. I've got a lot of information. A tape of the privite CETI demo. The EPRI report. Your reports in INFINITE energy. The latest copy of FUSION Facts. Info that Miley told me. Info from H.E. Puthoff on ZPE. My own info. books disks and lectures. We have got so much stuff that we don't know what to do with it. Frank Znidarsic JED why don't you send one of your tapes to the Hollywood producer that doing the series on antigravity. Puthoff, Sakhorov, and I think there is a deep connection between ZPE and gravity. It many be a chance to get som e TV exposure on the subject. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 06:33:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA22087 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA22064 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA08692 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:17:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199601051417.AA08692@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:17:55 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GAM+@PITT.EDU To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: reply to antig Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 09:17:14 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> CARL E DODSON SR -> JEROME R SEESE II -> GAM+@PITT.EDU MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> THOMAS C ROBERTS -> JOHN W BARRON JR -> ROBERT GAGICH -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC -> ROSS@PACIFICNET.NET MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:20:10 -0800 X-Sender: ross@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 To: p8156@memo.gpuc.com From: ross@pacificnet.net (ross marshall) Subject: reply to antigravity offer Dear Mr. Znidarsic; Got your reply and was excited to hear from you. We are "slowly" putting together information and data on antigravity, historical and informational, as well as entertaining for our upcoming documentary. It appears it will be a 6 month project or longer. It depends on how much stuff we have to read through and how far and how many times I have to fly around getting interviews. We would really enjoy you working part-time on our doc. with us. And we surly would like some of your publications on gravity machines. Send ALL you have, books/videos...We do have a small budget and can afford it right now. Send them with billing in US dollars and we will send payment. Also, send VHS (not Pal) US type VCR tapes; any and all you have. If you send them containing lectures and private conferences, we will let you know what parts we will us and will work up a contract with you on the used visual parts. You sound like a real great contact, and we appreaciate any and all help on this BIG project. It may take awhile to produce. We are very interested in locating researchers who would like to offer their video footage for review and possible incorporation into the doc. series. We will only use what we agree to pay for. We need video footage such as interviews on viewpoints, footage of chalk talks on borads, lectures, descriptions and demonstartions of devices, if any. If you want, you can cam-corder yourself and send this. Thank you for any you can contribute. We will work up some contracts! I am starting with Mr. Robert Stirniman's 'Electrogravitics Resource' manual. You might have him drop it e-mail to you. Its free.Its 120 pages of resources and connections, mongraphs and bibliographies on antigravity. He's at < robert@wwa.com > You might even be listed in it. Send your materials soon with any billing slips, to: c/o Ross Marshall (Researcher/Actor/Writer/Producer) Plutonium Films Production, Inc. 8055 Lankershim Blvd., Unit #2 N.Hollywood, Ca. 91605 USA Date: 1-4-96 P.S. If you have already sent your stuff, never mind the above. Sincerely; Ross Marshall Tele: USA 1-818-504-4135 rsm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 07:02:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA26182 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA26171 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA08137 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:45:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199601051445.AA08137@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:45:19 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: tape Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 09:44:37 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I've had many requests for the CETI demo tape. I agreed with CETI not to disclose it. I must honor my agreement and will not. Sorry Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 08:05:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06127 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA06115 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:52:25 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAB20090 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:51:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:51:10 -0500 Message-ID: <960105105108_107270298@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: tape Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, I would love to see such a tape - maybe you could ask them if you could share it with us? They are bringing a cell here for us to test and we want to be best prepared. Hal From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 10:06:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA25700 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA25668 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA03814; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:49:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:49:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: READ THIS IMMEDIATELY! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just heard that the "SCIENCE FRIDAY" show on National Public Radio will have a segment on Science of the Future: what kind of research will be necessary in coming decades. THIS SHOW HAS A LISTENER CALL-IN SEGMENT. It's an excellent opportunity for anyone who wants to air some beefs about the overly conventional progress-stifiling, anomaly-hiding, hyper-skeptical ridicule herdmind behavior which rules modern science. The show is 2 hours long starting today at 11AM PST, 2PM EST, and one hour is devoted to Synthetic Antihydrogen. The call-in number is 1-800-989-8255. I'm not sure if the Science of the Future section is first (11am) or second (12pm PST), but if you want to dial in, start about 15 minutes before the hour to get into the queue, and redial continuously if there is a busy signal. I managed to call in last friday and plug my Website, when the topic was Cool Science on the Internet. My raw "hits" statistics went from 18,000 to 37,000 after the show! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 10:07:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA14788 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 08:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA14751 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 08:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA08234 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:48:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199601051648.AA08234@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:48:54 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: marsell Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 11:48:13 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I talked to Mr. Ron Marsell of the film Co. My first impression was he is a crackpot not worth dealing with. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 10:24:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA29235 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca ([142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA29198 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA18420; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:09:16 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601051809.AA18420@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: READ THIS IMMEDIATELY! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:09:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "William Beaty" at Jan 5, 96 09:49:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > > I managed to call in last friday and plug my Website, when the topic was > Cool Science on the Internet. My raw "hits" statistics went from 18,000 > to 37,000 after the show! > Should we make a pact that anyone who gets on should plug John Logajan's web-site? Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 10:32:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA01427 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA01383 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA11907 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:44:57 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:22:45 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI light emission Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Russ George wrote: >Could the well established "electrochemical light" phenomenon which >is tied to recombination be the answer to the CETI glow. I don't >think one has to look too far for an explanation here. This is very interresting. There were some posts on s.p.f about possible light in cells in 1989-90, but none was found to my knowledge. I did a scan of s.p.f with no positive results. Do you have any references? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:05:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA19078 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA19034 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06693 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:49:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199601051949.AA06693@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:49:54 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: tape Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 14:49:12 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Hal They don't want my tape released to anyone. I must honor my agreement. Things to prep for. 1. Flow measurment in the 1 liter/minute range. 2. Temp measurement in the 20 to 40 deg C range. 3. Film to check for radioactive emissions. I put my cammera next to the cell and ran the film ahead. I saw nothing upon development. 4. Sniffer for H2 would be nice. Your local utility has one. 5 I wish I would have done this one. A small AM radio to listen for any electron clusters forming or breaking apart. You should be able to hear a hiss if this is happening. 6. An electrical power meter in the 100 watt range. re Other than that there is nothing you can do in a limited demonstration. You may want to expose some film to a radium watch dial in advance to se e what film looks like when it has been exposed to radiation. This pre experiment my help you with real test when they come. You will know how to do a film test. If you don't have a radium watch try a smoke detector. I suggest that you put a paper clip in front of a piece of film expose, develope it, and then make a better setup when they come. Frank Znidarsic Anyone else have any other ideas? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:11:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA20270 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA20250 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA03486 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:56:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199601051956.AA03486@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:56:05 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: film test Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 14:55:24 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Hal If nothing else do what I did. Turn you cammera around backwards. And place it against the cell. It was fun but it didn't prove a thing. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 13:58:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA08610 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA08587 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id NAA00728; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:34:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:34:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: READ THIS IMMEDIATELY! In-Reply-To: <9601051809.AA18420@kosal0.triumf.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, Martin Sevior wrote: > > > > I managed to call in last friday and plug my Website, when the topic was > > Cool Science on the Internet. My raw "hits" statistics went from 18,000 > > to 37,000 after the show! > > > > Should we make a pact that anyone who gets on should plug John Logajan's > web-site? Darn Darn Darn! I dialed in just before the show and got no-answers, then got continuous busy signals. However, even though CF was not mentioned, the show was a Clash of Cultures, Battle of Titans type affair between the guests Rupert "morphogenic fields" Sheldrake and Shawn Carlson, the founder of the new Society for Amateur Scientists. Sheldrake was detailing how amateurs can experiment with ESP with their pets, talking about anomalies with termite mounds and fish schooling, etc., while Carlson was lumping all this together under "paranormal" and making pronouncements that no paranormal evidence has ever withstood valid testing. Amazing, and right out of "Zen and the Art of Debunkery!" .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 14:59:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA18597 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA18587 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA00697; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:27:08 -0500 Date: 05 Jan 96 17:23:20 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI calorimeter dimensions Message-ID: <960105222319_72240.1256_EHB190-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I now have a better description of the CETI calorimeter pump, thanks to Mitchell Jones, who wrote to me: "I re-read your original post, where you described the pump as a Magnum 220 aquarium pump. I then went down to a local "Aquarium Superstore" and checked it out. Here are my measurements: reservoir inner diameter: 15 cm; height from bottom to top of reservoir: 20 cm; height from bottom of reservoir to fill line: 15 cm; thickness of reservoir walls: 3 mm. The polyethylene tubing for that model has an outer diameter of 17 mm and a wall thickness of 2 mm." I wrote to him in response: Okay, I will compare this to a blown up Xerox of a photograph with an object of known length (a bottle label I brought home). Okay, scale is 1:6. That would make the reservoir . . . 15 cm diameter (right on the nose!) And 22 cm tall (pretty close!) Mitchell asked me some other questions about the dimensions of the cell and pump. I responded: Length of cell = 18 cm. Cell is swaddled in opaque plastic but the inlet and outlet tubes stick out the sides and they are 18 cm apart. The cell materials are glass but I do not know how much heat leaks out of there. With water going straight through the null cell at reservoir temperature, the loss is a fraction of a degree; the Delta T alternates between 0.0 and -0.1, indicating a loss of <7 watts. Maybe -0.2 occasionally. Estimate of hose length: I think there are . . . 5 loops in cooling tower. It is hard to count them. Cooling tower diameter = reservoir diameter (it fits right on top). So, that pi*15*5=236 cm, conservatively. Actually, the loops are bigger than the internal circumference. They are piled up sideways in the space up there, at about a 45 deg angle. Return hose cell to cooling tower to pump = 126 cm, measured by bending a 10 cm wire on top of photo. This one gets very hot! Especially right next to cell outlet. Remember that temperatures fall exponentially. A lot of the heat is lost between the cell outlet and the reservoir. Hose from pump to cell not visible. At least 84 cm. Part of this it the ratty old original hose. There is also a hose to the control cell which is another 1.5 meters, but I won't count that. I did not keep track of the control side, except when I drew samples of water to confirm the inlet temperature which was close to the reservoir temperature, naturally). Total 446 cm = 4.5 meters = 15 feet conservatively, very roughly measured. Maybe 20 if you throw in several fudge factors. Temperature drop from pump reservoir to cell inlet varied between 1.1 and 1.4 degrees (depending on how hot the reservoir was), indicating a loss of 77 to 100 watts. I note that is a lot more than the input to motor + cell. The cooling on that stretch alone, which had the lowest starting temperature, was more than the input to the whole system! I should have placed a thermistor probe right under the return stream as it fell back into the reservoir. Then we would see how much heat the cooling tower removes. Mitchell: "The polyethylene tubing for that model has an outer diameter of 17 mm and a wall thickness of 2 mm." Dennis replaced most of the original tubing with 3/8ths inch Tygon R3603. The old tubes were dirty and beat up looking. He has been using this pump for a while. "I take it that there was no other glassware in the system? And no metal? I don't think there is. Except for the fittings and connectors on these valves. That's brass or copper, I think. The valve handles are plastic. Mitchell reports that he purchased a Magnum 350 aquarium pump (the biggest model available) and he is going to do some tests with it when he gets a chance. I hope it did not cost him much money. Maybe he needs it anyway; he said he has a big aquarium. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 19:28:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA06108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA06098 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxhd16769; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26839; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:16:37 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 823215190096005FEPRI; 05 Jan 1996 19:15:19 PST Message-Id: Date: 05 Jan 1996 19:15:19 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: READ THIS IMMEDIATELY! To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/05/96 19:15:31 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/05/96 13:58 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: READ THIS IMMEDIATELY! Probably for the better Bill, about not getting on. I'm just wondering though. If you made the CETI details available to all 280,000,000 people in the US, or better 4 Billion in the world, how many do you think would have the guts,interest,etc to try it. It seems that we are almost getting that answer as we speak---damn few, unfortunately. THAT right there is a sad commentary on current humanity. - Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not enough people know.... It seems realitively simple however!!! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:43:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA09618 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 08:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA09609 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 08:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA26479; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:26:35 -0500 Date: 06 Jan 96 11:25:20 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Flitting across the Pond Message-ID: <960106162520_100433.1541_BHG77-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Just a note to say that I'll be in Boston / New Hampshire from the 16th of this month to the 23rd, staying with Gene Mallove. With exquisite cunning, I have disguised myself by removing my beard. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 11:15:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA24816 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA24806 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:02:54 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29314 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:01:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:01:34 -0500 Message-ID: <960106140133_33597982@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Chris' Missing Beard! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: But Chris, don't you need your beard to pick up (as in Sheldrake's morpho-etc process, according to skeptics) small bits of CETI beads to carry back to make sure the UK has a working o/u device? Hal From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 11:35:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA26970 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA26956 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxjp17050; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12734; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:23:45 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 762022110096006FEPRI; 06 Jan 1996 11:22:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 06 Jan 1996 11:22:11 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Email Needed! To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/06/96 11:22:19 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Email Needed! - In about 5 hours from this post I will have my cousin, Steve Erling, wife Lois, children Julia 9, David and Paul (twins) 8, over for dinner. Want some national/international Email greetings. Please post to MHUGO@ EPRI.EPRI.COM to keep the vortex clean. Thanks! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 15:06:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA20491 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:55:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA20484 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA10393; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:53:45 -0500 Date: 06 Jan 96 17:52:56 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Playing with beads Message-ID: <960106225256_100060.173_JHB51-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In view of the apparent current distribution in the CETI cell where most of the electrolysis activity seems to be happening in the area where the cathode surfaces directly oppose the anode, it might be worth trying the following arrangement: . __________ . || __________"water out . || | || . || anode | || . ||==================|===================|| .porus insulator "||######################################|| .shallow beads "||oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo|| . ||^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|| . || cathode| || .container "|| | ||________ . ||__________________|_____________________________"water in . |___________________|____________________| . | The idea being to maximize the active area of the beads in the electrolyte, instead of using a low aspect ratio tube where only a small proportion of the bead volume is directly opposite the anode. There's nothing to stop the cathode lead running up an insulating tube inside the cell. This seems a relatively simple arrangement to try, using existing bits. Hope the ASCII "art" comes out right. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:10:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA28505 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA28499 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-146.austin.eden.com (net-1-146.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.146]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id SAA11054 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:03:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:03:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601070003.SAA11054@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Flitting across the Pond X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I'll be in Boston / New Hampshire from the 16th of this >month to the 23rd, staying with Gene Mallove. Wow, Chris. One doesn't just flit across the pond... Is something good happening? >With exquisite cunning, I have disguised myself by removing my beard. Ah, you're going for a job interview? :-) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:18:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA29557 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA29545 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-146.austin.eden.com (net-1-146.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.146]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id SAA11365 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:11:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:11:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601070011.SAA11365@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman said: >The idea being to maximize the active area of the beads in the electrolyte, >instead of using a low aspect ratio tube where only a small proportion of the >bead volume is directly opposite the anode. Boy, this seems like a good idea to me. My cell has "activity" only in the top layer of beads...of course my beads are presently little balls of Ni which are quite conductive. I've been studying all the public data on the CETI cell and have noticed that the PowerGen demo ran at 8 volts whereas all previous versions ran at about 4 volts. Perhaps they arranged two cells in series (both electrically and hydraulically) inside the same cylindrical housing. BTW, the magnet did nothing except attract itself toward the Ni balls. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 18:12:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA12877 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA12868 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA27161; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:02:39 -0500 Date: 06 Jan 96 21:01:17 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Flitting across the Pond Message-ID: <960107020116_100433.1541_BHG34-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Hal, "But Chris, don't you need your beard to pick up (as in Sheldrake's morpho-etc process, according to skeptics) small bits of CETI beads to carry back to make sure the UK has a working o/u device?" Hmm. An intriguing notion. That story about the bearded globe-trotting chemists was pretty funny, in the highest tradition of debunkery. I have to say that Sheldrake writes better than he sounds on tv... And I think he is one of those people Jed mentions, "I gotta hammer, so everything I see is a nail." But I loved that test they did with split screen showing the dog getting up just as the experimenter told its owner to start heading for home. I think I'd rather a few beads stuck to the inside of my pocket... Scott, "Wow, Chris. One doesn't just flit across the pond... Is something good happening?" Of course. We have a little get-together in Boston every mid-January, you knew that. And I get to meet Jed for the first time. And we get to talk, do a bit of "coarse science" - you know, that kind of stuff. It's no big deal. For a small sum one can fly from here to Florida and have a couple of week's "vacation" as I believe you American chappies call it. They tell me at the travel agency that, for a small extra surcharge, one can get shot as well. >With exquisite cunning, I have disguised myself by removing my beard. "Ah, you're going for a job interview? :-)" Nah. Even if I evaded the beardism, I'd still be too old and - ah - "plumb ornery" is the phrase, I believe. Nobody would have a poor, broken-down old hacker like me. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:13:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA17437 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 13:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA17429 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 13:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-167.austin.eden.com (net-1-167.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.167]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id PAA27775 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:05:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:05:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601072105.PAA27775@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Flitting across the Pond X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those of you who haven't ever met Chris, let me translate his last statement to me (my words in parentheses): >Nah. Even if I evaded the beardism, I'd still be too old (mature) and - ah - "plumb ornery" (determined to do it right) is the phrase, I believe. Nobody would have a poor (frugal and creative), broken-down (highly experienced) old hacker (sharp electroniker/programmer) like me. > >Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 16:19:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA10697 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA10682 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA02357; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:09:30 -0500 Date: 07 Jan 96 19:07:20 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Energy and the ZPF Message-ID: <960108000720_100433.1541_BHG67-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Scott, You're much too kind. And I'm sure the US Census office (like ours) reports on the population, "broken down by age and sex". On a more interesting note, one thing puzzles me. Frank Close said not so long ago on s.p.f (that fount of all wisdom) that "ZPE = Zero Energy". On the Compuserve Science forum, some rather diffident Brit (an oxymoron there, surely?), Joe Atiyah (100442,1704@compuserve.com) came in today and asked about ZPE: "Now please everybody, I don't want to start another cold fusion war here, but I would like some comments on what I see as an interesting topic. "There was a recent program on UK TV on 'over unity' devices which appear to be getting 'free' energy - yes, shades of cold fusion. "Among the experiments mentioned was one by Tesla many years ago where he apparently blew up the private power station he was using with an unexplained surge of energy (he was messing with very high power/currents). "An apparent common thread with several situations was the use of high frequency AC currents. "The interesting aspect was the suggestion that just maybe, posssiby, perhaps, there might be some way of 'stealing' zero point energy. "As it happened, I was reading 'In search of the edge of time' by John Gribbin, where he happened to mention the Casimir (?) effect, which exhibits a force due to zero point energy, and could in theory at least, extract such energy. "The energy is very small, and presumably quite impractical - but hey, once the principal is established, then the door is open, even if just by a crack. "I have the germ of an idea that could just possibly tie some of these things together, and sometime I'll write it down - but of course, it needs some probably hard maths to check it out, and mine is far too rusty with the passage of time. "So, any comments, suggestions, volunteers? - but please, keep it cool." Dr Tom LeCompte (76711,572@compuserve.com), the Sysop (of Fermilab) first mentioned Casimir attraction, then explained that (eg) a hydroelectric plant requires an energy gradient. Fair enough. He then said: "The whole ZPE thing has been promoted by people who understand the words of physics, but don't understand any physics. Zero Point Energy has to do with the fact that the minimum energy in a system is not zero. Nonetheless, it is still the minimum - you can't get any lower than the minimum, so you can't extract any energy. If you could go lower, you weren't at the minimum." >> but hey, once the principal is established, then the door is open, even if just by a crack. "I don't think so. If you have a theory that says "You can do A, but not B", and you can do A, that hardly is evidence *for* the ability to do B. There is a prediction for how much energy (and no more) one can get from the Casimir effect. That's how much you do get." OK. Here's my question. This very simplistic argument appears wholly to satisfy the bulk of physicists. But LeCompte's first sentence seems extreme? Is he really making a fair *generalisation*? Does this mean that such things as the mathematical arguments for deriving gravity and inertia from the ZPF are 'semi-acceptable', but the notion that the ZPF could be 'split' to cause an energy release is 'unacceptable'? I have seen it argued that the neglect of cellular apoptosis, described 20 years ago, means that cancer research has basically been off on the wrong track until very recently when the 'top wombats' of the field decided it was in fact a good thing. And we had the recent case of helicobacter pylori. What I am really asking is about the 'sociology' of ZPE, rather than the actual science. I know I am personally biased in favour of the idea of the unifying nature of ZPF theory, and that is only partly because I see it as representing an opening rather than a closing of the book of physics. I just don't like it when people say, "we know it all now, except for a few things we need a few billions spent on, things which you peasants won't understand, which will have no real significance for humanity, but which we might get a few best-sellers (and some extremely good parties) out of." My reaction is emotional, but it is based on study of the history of science. It is of course not my *only* reason for liking ZPF! Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 20:04:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA08556 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA08542 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05481 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:54:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199601080354.AA05481@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:54:14 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: address Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 22:53:35 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Does any know Frank Close's address at Ruhterfor Lab. I would like to send him some information. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 20:35:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA12389 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 20:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA12373 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 20:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05435 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 23:25:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199601080425.AA05435@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 23:25:50 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: Energy an Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 23:25:11 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 07 Jan 96 19:07:20 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Energy and the ZPF Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To:vortex Scott, You're much too kind. And I'm sure the US Census office (like ours) reports on the population, "broken down by age and sex". On a more interesting note, one thing puzzles me. Frank Close said not so long ago on s.p.f (that fount of all wisdom) that "ZPE = Zero Energy". On the Compuserve Science forum, some rather diffident Brit (an oxymoron there, surely?), Joe Atiyah (100442,1704@compuserve.com) came in today and asked about ZPE: "Now please everybody, I don't want to start another cold fusion war here, but I would like some comments on what I see as an interesting topic. "There was a recent program on UK TV on 'over unity' devices which appear to be getting 'free' energy - yes, shades of cold fusion. "Among the experiments mentioned was one by Tesla many years ago where he apparently blew up the private power station he was using with an unexplained surge of energy (he was messing with very high power/currents). "An apparent common thread with several situations was the use of high frequency AC currents. "The interesting aspect was the suggestion that just maybe, posssiby, perhaps, there might be some way of 'stealing' zero point energy. "As it happened, I was reading 'In search of the edge of time' by John Gribbin, where he happened to mention the Casimir (?) effect, which exhibits a force due to zero point energy, and could in theory at least, extract such energy. "The energy is very small, and presumably quite impractical - but hey, once the principal is established, then the door is open, even if just by a crack. "I have the germ of an idea that could just possibly tie some of these things together, and sometime I'll write it down - but of course, it needs some probably hard maths to check it out, and mine is far too rusty with the passage of time. "So, any comments, suggestions, volunteers? - but please, keep it cool." Dr Tom LeCompte (76711,572@compuserve.com), the Sysop (of Fermilab) first mentioned Casimir attraction, then explained that (eg) a hydroelectric plant requires an energy gradient. Fair enough. He then said: "The whole ZPE thing has been promoted by people who understand the words of physics, but don't understand any physics. Zero Point Energy has to do with the fact that the minimum energy in a system is not zero. Nonetheless, it is still the minimum - you can't get any lower than the minimum, so you can't extract any energy. If you could go lower, you weren't at the minimum." ........................................................................ Let me begin by restating the principle of the conservation of energy. if Energy is neither created or distroyed..the total energy of the univese is a constant. Given that statment it appears that no new energy can be found Something needs to be added to the above principle...THE TOTAL ENERGY OF t THE UNIVERSE IS ZERO||| The positive mass energy of the univese is balanced by an equivalent amount of negative gravitational potential....... Gravity contains negative energy. If a device produced gravity it would produce NEW prositve energy. Then how do we produce gravity. A symmetrcal realtionship exists between force and gravity. gravity = G/(ccr) (dp/dt) e? When mass is accelerated positive kinetic energy is imparted to it. gs energy = +force * distance Negative gravitational potential is imparted by the same force. e In fact the positive energy is a secondary effect. It follows the negative gravitational potentail. Now for the neat part. Zero point systems cannot give up any energy. That's right they are already at the mimimum. They can, however, impart a fluxuation force. This force produces new energy and new gravitational s potential. New energy is produced without violating the conservation of energy.Why doesn't this happen everywhere? Because of a problem with spin. A gravitation has a spin of 2 and a photon a spin of 1/2. For a graviton and a photon to be emitted spin must be imparted. What characterizes a zero point system? That's right its spin| Spin is exchan ged in ZP systems by phonons. That it in a nutshell the genesis process. If you want to learn more, get my disk..It on Bill B for sale page. It take 1 MB to do this thing justice. Frank Znidarsic ......................................................................... My reaction is emotional, but it is based on study of the history of science. It is of course not my *only* reason for liking ZPF! Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 03:29:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA02255 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA02250 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA25138; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:09:19 -0500 Date: 08 Jan 96 06:03:18 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Address Message-ID: <960108110318_76570.2270_FHU36-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Z, Don't waste your time sending anything to Frank Close. He's close-minded. As I say, his book was not frank -- and not even close! Gene From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 08:09:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA27408 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA27382 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-231.austin.eden.com (net-1-231.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.231]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA17212 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:59:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:59:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601081559.JAA17212@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: an event! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Last night my CETI cell approximation experienced an event! I left the thing running all weekend with about .8 watts of electrolysis power (8 volts .1 amps) to see if I could eventually load up the various balls and beads in the cell and get some action. Puthoff saw the thing at 11:00 PM last night and it was fine...not producing any noticeable excess heat. This AM, all the electrolyte was on the table and the floor!. The cell body, a piece of Lexan (polycarbonate) tubing 1" ID with 1/8" wall cracked in several places, mainly where the clamp was touching it. The clamp is your typical ring-stand clamp for cylinders and, as is typical, you can tighten the little wingnut until your fingers hurt and still the clamp is not tight enuf to keep the clamped item from moving around with relative freedom. In other words, the clamp did not by itself break the Lexan tubing. Operating temp was around 30 degrees C. I've had it up to 45 C before (via the reservior heater). Despite Lexan's claim to fame in the strength department I've had mysterious cracking incidents with it before...I'm only mildly hopeful that an excess heat event occurred last night. Right now I'm cleaning up and reassembling things (with a new cell body of course) with the same bead mix. CETI reports that, once properly loaded, their beads start up fairly promptly. Any ideas why it cracked? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 10:04:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA17144 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA17118 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxqt19515; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26437; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:55:34 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 695854090096008FEPRI; 08 Jan 1996 09:54:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Jan 1996 09:54:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: an event! To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/08/96 09:54:55 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/08/96 09:16 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: an event! Lexan and LiSO4? The only thing I could give you is an inordinate constrainted expansion of the beads Scott. You should be able to run LiSO4 in Lexan from now until the cows come home and not have a problem. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 10:18:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA19259 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA19235 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxqu01463; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10488; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:06:39 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 823505100096008FEPRI; 08 Jan 1996 10:05:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Jan 1996 10:05:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Flitting across the Pond To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/08/96 10:05:32 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/06/96 18:11 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Flitting across the Pond Chris: You only get shot in Florida if you are in a rent-a-car and someone hears your accent. The "bad guys" know that British, German, Swiss tourist are un-armed. Approximately 1/2 of all the regular Florida population carries "heat" in the car, and I don't mean the commercial product you put in the gas tank. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 11:07:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA16905 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16856 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:54:25 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA09962; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:53:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:53:04 -0500 Message-ID: <960108125302_35287736@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: 100442.1704@compuserve.com, 76711.572@compuserve.com Subject: Re: vtx: Energy an Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In response to the new discussion on the possibility of extracting zero-point energy (ZPE) from the vacuum fluctuations: First, Joe Atiyah is correct to note that the Casimir effect is a "crack" by which the principle of ZPE extraction is proven in principle; the question now is, is there a viable engineering embodiment? (Clearly, mechanical plates won't make it; but plasma sheets, toroids, ball lightning? As with a Tokamak, etc., if the output energy exceeds the "kindling energy" input, one has a viable process.) The error in Tom Lecompte's thinking (roughly "zero-point energy is already the lowest state - you can't go lower and anyone who thinks you can is using physics words but doesn't understand physics") is this. The ZPE state *of a given system* is the lowest state and you can't go lower - true; but interacting systems with separate (and variable) states constitute a different situation. Specifically, with the Casimir Effect: the universe with two pieces of metal far apart is in a higher vacuum energy state than a universe with two pieces of metal closer. Thus, there is an attractive (inverse 4th-law) force between the plates, and as they move toward each other the vacuum modes between the plates are progressively excluded by geometry, their ZPE is converted into the kinetic energy of the plates moving together, and this is then converted into heat as the plates collide. Thus, vacuum energy into heat; total energy conserved. It's not mysterious, this conversion of Casimir potential energy into another form, but rather like the gravitational equivalent associated with falling water (Lecompte's gradient). The oversight of a superficial approach is thinking that the ZPE of the vacuum is fixed. It is not, being dependent on the geometric distribution of all materials and their dielectric and conductive properties. The energetics and thermodynamics that legitimates (legitimizes?) the basic concept of the conversion of vacuum (Casimir) potential energy into other forms is covered in the following two publications: D. C. Cole and H. E. Puthoff, "Extracting energy and heat from the vacuum," Phys Rev E 48, 1562, 1993; R. L. Forward, "Extracting electrical energy from the vacuum by...." Phys Rev B 30, 1700, 1984. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 11:10:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA28171 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA28155 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-113.austin.eden.com (net-1-113.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.113]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA29140 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:57:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:57:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601081857.MAA29140@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: log books vs recorders X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hugo said: >(unusual) he also has no interest or use for chart recorders. (This goes >into the odd/bizzare catagory.) Anyway, this means all his observations are >with Log Book and "meters". Does this "bother" anyone the way it bother's >me? Nope! As long as the phenomenon you are observing doesn't vary too fast, there's everything right and nothing wrong with manual data logging. OK, a chart recorder is nice but it's not necessary. Hey, maybe the guy just likes baby-sitting his experiments. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 11:29:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01473 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01446 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxqy16251; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18208; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:13:46 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 075112110096008FEPRI; 08 Jan 1996 11:12:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Jan 1996 11:12:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: log books vs recorders To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/08/96 11:12:48 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/08/96 11:10 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: log books vs recorders OK Scott, I'll agree with you. I still think it is odd, and having offered Dennis the use of my Eberline Angus (currently on loan to another CF researcher who has finished up with it), I feel I've made a good effort to help out. But maybe you are right, if he spends hours at the trailer/lab, and makes observations once every 1/2 hour or so, it might be sufficient. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 11:31:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA20099 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA20088 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxqu02490; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11571; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:11:34 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 583110100096008FEPRI; 08 Jan 1996 10:10:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Jan 1996 10:10:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/08/96 10:10:26 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/06/96 16:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads Ahem Scott! Cough, cough, putting the thing in a series network with some external resistors to balance the current loops was MY suggestion to Dennis, in MAY. Give it a try, AFTER the first successful run. - VORTEX Land people. Although I do think that Jed's observations and the work by Miley give us the need to follow this claim and prove/disprove/improve on it, I am somewhat worried about Dennis' work. In recent conversation with Dennis, I discovered that not only does he have a total distain for computers (unusual) he also has no interest or use for chart recorders. (This goes into the odd/bizzare catagory.) Anyway, this means all his observations are with Log Book and "meters". Does this "bother" anyone the way it bother's me? I hope that Miley's group (and do believe) is using AT LEAST chart re- corders, if not full blown digital data gathering. - Comments? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 11:36:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA02617 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA02576 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tZN6q-0005RQC; Mon, 8 Jan 96 13:19 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:19:55 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601081559.JAA17212@natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Jan 8, 96 09:59:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This AM, all the electrolyte was on the table and the floor!. The cell > body, a piece of Lexan (polycarbonate) tubing 1" ID with 1/8" wall cracked > in several places, mainly where the clamp was touching it. There is always the slim possibility of explosive recombination. This would require an accmulation in bulk, and I don't think the bulk would include the gas in the bead bed (since the flame front might have difficulty maintaining ignition temperatures while snaking about the cool metal surfaces.) To accumulate in bulk would probably require a jam up in the output. So this possibility looks slim. I only mention it because I have seen it happen in my own test cells. The Pt wire was exposed in the head room and it would turn red hot from natural recombination, until it suddenly would flash over to the bulk gas -- with a loud pop. It never did fracture the glass test tube though. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 11:38:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA21403 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA21367 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA02072 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:18:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199601081818.AA02072@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:18:32 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: FEC@V2.RL.AC.UK To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: zpe Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 13:17:52 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> FEC@V2.RL.AC.UK MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Frank I saw you on the Ch #4 special... You stated that you would bet your mortgage that these devices are not working. I'm afraid you would loose that bet. You don't understand what is happening. You are correct in your analysis that the ZP fields of matter are in there lowest energy state and that the energy cannot be extracted. The ZP state is only a catalyst in the energy production process.................................. To begin. The conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created of destroyed..The total energy in the universe remains constant. This is true but the statement needs to be expanded a bit to include the comment: THIS CONSTANT OF ENERGY IS ZERO!! The positive energy of the universe is balanced by a negative of gravitational potential. See my papers on Electromagnum at http://nucleus.ibg.uu.se See my papers on Weird Science at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb If a gravity producing machine could be built it would produce positive energy in an amount equal to the generated negative grav' potential. How do you make gravity?? Gravity and force share a symmetrical relation ship. gravity in newtons/kg =(G/(ccr))(dp/dt) This relationship is like the electromagnetic relationship except the constants are different. I'm not proposing a union of electromagnetism and gravity only a force/gravity relationship. When mass is accelerated the force * distance relationship imparts a negative gravitational field to the mass. The positive energy that is imparted to the mass is a secondary effect, it follows the negative grav potential. Under certain conditions ZP system can impart a fluctuation force. This force induces negative gravitational potential. Positive energy and negative gravitational potential are simultaneously produced. The ZP system as you said DOES NOT give up any energy. The process is one of genesis. It makes NEW energy. Why does not energy just spring out from nothing everywhere?? There is a problem with spin. A spin 1 photon and a spin 2 graviton must be simultaneously emitted. Angular momentum must be supplied. The defining property of a ZP system is its angular momentum. This angular momentum is an integer multiple of Planck's constant. Phonons exchange momentum within zero point systems. The addition of angular momentum allows something to be produced from nothing! I have a 1 MB disk that explains the process in detail. If you send me your address I will send you a copy. It requires MS Windows. Frank, I think it's time to change..Do a bit a reading and become supportive of those who are going to change the world for the better. Frank Znidarsic The process nothing + angular momentum ---> (+energy)+ (-gravity) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 12:38:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA12515 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA12493 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA21920 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:40:52 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:17:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Last night my CETI cell approximation experienced an event! > >I left the thing running all weekend with about .8 watts of electrolysis [snip] >Any ideas why it cracked? > >Scott Little I suggest the cause was expansion of the electrolyte exposed side of the tube, probably due to sulfating. You might still be able to verify this by looking for saddle shaped pieces or pieces with curvature that does not match tubing unexposed to the electrolyte. The expansion may be due to absorbtion and/or bonding with dissolved electrolysis freed sulfate radicals and/or hydrogen. One way to check this out is to glue some foil to a thin flat piece of lexan and place in an active electrolysis cell. If the sample warps you have a test to isolate the culprit. The bad guy could be Li or just H2O, but these seem duobtful candidates. An MgSO4 (Epsom salts) electrolyte would probably eliminate Li as the bad guy. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 13:20:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA21552 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA21518 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxrg08945; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22040; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:51:48 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 575350120096008FEPRI; 08 Jan 1996 12:50:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 08 Jan 1996 12:50:12 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Natural Gas and the Future.... To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/08/96 12:50:51 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Natural Gas and the Future.... - There is a misplaced assurance that natural gas will be an energy "salvation" for the US and the World. It may well be true that there is a potential of 30 to 100 years worth of natural gas which may be recoverable in the world, at current consumption rates. However, the current natural gas "glut" will dissapear rapidly between 1998 to 2002 according to a Sept. '95 report by the Electric Power Research Inst. "Wellhead Deliverability of Natural Gas- Assembling the Evidence". According to this report, using all the data on the currently available supplies, current plans for exploration/expansion, by 1998 there will begin to be a serious lack of availability of equipment and manpower to assure continued natural gas supplies for the next decade. The EPRI report is particularily concerned with current utility plans to have upwards of 30% of electricity begin supplied by natural gas generation by the year 2005. Write me at MHUGO@EPRI.EPRI.COM if you want to find out how to order copies of this report. The connection with CF and VORTEXL is to note that having a practical "home heating" unit by 2000 out of the CETI work could be a true "salvation" for the lack of planning existing in the US/World right now regarding energy futures. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 16:02:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA19417 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA19362 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:34:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601082334.PAA19362@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA212194244; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:37:24 -0700 From: Ron McFee Subject: vtx: Gozzi's Ghost Little Haunts To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 16:37:23 MST Cc: mcfee@lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott writes: >Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:59:14 -0600 (CST) >From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) >Subject: vtx: an event! > >Last night my CETI cell approximation experienced an event! > >I left the thing running all weekend with about .8 watts of electrolysis >power (8 volts .1 amps) to see if I could eventually load up the various >balls and beads in the cell and get some action. Puthoff saw the thing at >11:00 PM last night and it was fine...not producing any noticeable excess heat. > >This AM, all the electrolyte was on the table and the floor!. The cell >body, a piece of Lexan (polycarbonate) tubing 1" ID with 1/8" wall cracked >in several places, mainly where the clamp was touching it. The clamp is >your typical ring-stand clamp for cylinders and, as is typical, you can >tighten the little wingnut until your fingers hurt and still the clamp is >not tight enuf to keep the clamped item from moving around with relative >freedom. In other words, the clamp did not by itself break the Lexan tubing. Looks like the same "Midnight Spook" that visited Daniele Gozzi's laboratory at the University of Rome six years ago has moved into Scott's laboratory in Austin, Texas. Daniele was doing a similar type of Pons Fleischmann experiment except it was with D2O and LiOD electrolyte. The cathode was pressed palladium sponge powder with grain size on average about one micron. This was sintered. An event, which occurred at night when no one was around, lasted about four minutes. It was estimated to produce 176 J of energy which boiled away part of the solution. It also emitted 7.2 X 10^5 neutrons and produced about (2.14+-0.04) X 10^11 tritium atoms. (Remember that this was heavy water, not the light water that is most popular today.) This was presented at the First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion and is also published in NUOVO CIMENTO 130, 1, 1990, p 143. The observed nuclear products, the tritium and neutrons, were only enough to account for about one thousandth of the observed 176 J of energy. The reactants for the remainder were not observed but could have been 4He. Scott, if you are not too bent on "proving" the ZPE fantasies of some people, you might try the heavy water route. However I think that your light water electrolyte deserves a higher priority at least until you can demonstrate consistent reproducible energy production. >Any ideas why it cracked? Was the vessel sealed? Could sudden steam generation be the cause? Were there additional signs of heat stress, scorching, or melting? Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 16:46:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA00613 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA00532 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA08055; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:51:34 -0500 Date: 08 Jan 96 18:49:46 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: an event! Message-ID: <960108234946_100060.173_JHB124-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >> (polycarbonate) tubing 1" ID with 1/8" wall cracked in several places, mainly where the clamp was touching it << That description almost certainly requires that the pressure built up in the tube, and the elastic expansion in the unrestrained sections above and below the clamp caused bending fracture at the restraint point, i.e. the clamp arms. So we either have blockage of the outlet or chemical swelling of a precipitate of some kind. I doubt that there was an explosion unless one of the Pt connectors fatigued at a joint and arced or just overheated. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 18:48:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA08593 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:31:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (root@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA08564 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA28259; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:03:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:03:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: an (unobserved) event! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Might you consider putting together a PC-based video timelapse system? I've not tried this myself, but I think a $100 Connectix camera and a PC with a 100M hard drive could record days and days of JPEG frames once per minute. Have a spare PC kicking around? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 18:58:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA10895 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA10850 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21333 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:43:30 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601090243.SAA21333@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 06:43:14 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: an event! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:59 AM 1/8/96 -0600, you wrote: >Last night my CETI cell approximation experienced an event! > >I left the thing running all weekend with about .8 watts of electrolysis >power (8 volts .1 amps) to see if I could eventually load up the various >balls and beads in the cell and get some action. Puthoff saw the thing at >11:00 PM last night and it was fine...not producing any noticeable excess heat. > >This AM, all the electrolyte was on the table and the floor!. The cell >body, a piece of Lexan (polycarbonate) tubing 1" ID with 1/8" wall cracked >in several places, mainly where the clamp was touching it. The clamp is >your typical ring-stand clamp for cylinders and, as is typical, you can >tighten the little wingnut until your fingers hurt and still the clamp is >not tight enuf to keep the clamped item from moving around with relative >freedom. In other words, the clamp did not by itself break the Lexan tubing. > >Operating temp was around 30 degrees C. I've had it up to 45 C before (via >the reservior heater). > >Despite Lexan's claim to fame in the strength department I've had mysterious >cracking incidents with it before...I'm only mildly hopeful that an excess >heat event occurred last night. > >Right now I'm cleaning up and reassembling things (with a new cell body of >course) with the same bead mix. CETI reports that, once properly loaded, >their beads start up fairly promptly. > >Any ideas why it cracked? funny about that. Hawkins had severe personal injuries as a result of using lexan, I believe. I suggest you talk to him about that via personal note to ghawk@eskimo.com in his case I believe that the problem was that he let too much electroysis happen too quickly and the electrodes heated up too much. the lye/lexan interface also may have some chemical factor which weakens the lexan, though I know little about chemistry. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 19:03:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA11089 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA11072 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21369 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:44:11 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601090244.SAA21369@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 06:43:56 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: CETI shou Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:19 PM 1/4/96 EST, you wrote: > > -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > >Date: 04 Jan 1996 10:30:10 PST >From: "MHUGO@EPRI" >Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit >To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM >Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/04/96 10:30:05 SMTP >Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >*** Reply to note of 01/04/96 10:03 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: CETI should set cooperation bit >Jed: I think the positive aspect on this is that it gives some people (me) >me to "catch up". And I can assure you, I will be open about my results. >I live in MINNESOTA..... Let me translate that for the wider world: This >is a place where "global warming" would be greeted with three cheers! It is >a max of 7 degrees F today and a low tonight below zero and this will >continue for some time. I see the outline from what you saw in CA, Jed, to >a home heater in short order. Phooey on dealing with the "large corporations". >Listen, think of the Compacs, AST's, Gold Stars, NEC's etc, and think of >IBM, Univac, Control Data. Did not IBM, FunnyVac and Controlled Data have >Phd's, did not they have fat salaried executives, and did they not ALL >IGNORE, ridicule, and treat "personal computers" shabbily during the >'80's? Where are they now? I'll give it to you: IBM, down to 140,000 employees >from 300,000----Control Data, a SHELL of it's former self, about 800 people >down from 8,000 in 1980. Funny Vac, down to about 2,000 from something like >12,000 at one time. SAME THING WILL HAPPEN WITH GAS COMPANIES, OIL COMPANIES, >etc. THINK PC and then think the way CF will be started and grow. MDH > >You are so wrong. I was at the CETI demo. Traveled there at the expense >of my company the General Public Utilities Corp. The CETI cell is getting >attention from the top levels of management. We are working on a strategy. >I'm showing my info to the VP's next week. Top management from our corpora >te office 500 miles from where I am has become involved. We don't want to >crush it. We want to be a part of it. I'm getting support from all levels > of management. Monday we have the excutive conf room booked. I going to >show the tape of the CETI demo to middle management. The tape of the UK >show "It runs on water" is having a huge impact. > > > Frank Znidarsic PE > Station Electrical Engineer > Conemaugh Generating Station > I think I will weigh in with Hugo on this one even while agreeing with you, Frank. Yes, a few larger companies will run with the balls because they've been actually infiltrated, despite the most dedicated effort at preventing it, by creative, free-thinking people who know how to bolt the herd. (They can still screen out people like Tinsley because he is so bloody obvious). Big companies are even more likely to pick up strange balls because THE HANDWRITING ON THE ECONOMIC WALL is now writ so large it takes more than merely blindness to ignore it, it requires extreme disfunctionality, such as fundamental stupidity, or something similar. These bigger companies, mayhaps companies like yours, will legitimise the entire field. Hooray!!! Howsomever, there is going to be years of corporate hemming and hawing about how to focus the situtation to their advantage. In the meantime, the fleet of foot will get very fleet indeed. Therein I agree with Hugo. Now let me explain something about the nature of the real socio-politico world out there. The second biggest story of the 1980's (the overthrow of the communist party being the biggest story of the 1980's) is almost completely unknown to almost everybody, but I know it because I was involved in it. During the late '70's the price of oil, which is the fundamental energy variable for the planet, was bid up higher and higher by the cartels, which had passed out of the control of the Seven Sisters and the Rockefeller group, but only for awhile. In an amazingly short period of time thousands of start up companies were formed to use renewable energy sources to surplant the use of oil. Tens of thousands of feasiblity studies were done all over the damn place, in a huge number of industries. It become very clear what the cross-over points (price of oil, cost of renewables) were. In 1980, the Rockefeller group, acting through the Chase Manhattan Bank, held a world conference for the investment managers of the oil producing countries (OPEC), for whome Chase performed a major portion of funds transfers. David and company socked it to them. They laid out exactly what the cross-over points were. They demonstrated exactly what the price of oil had to be maintained at to nip it all in the bud. Within a few weeks of that conference, OPEC actually reduced it prices. And David and company pushed the Feds into the Carter recession with 20% interest rates, which killed financing for a large number of renewable energy projects which were off the drawing board looking for finance. The only stuff which survived was a few alcohol plants, a few wind farms, and the technology of co-generation, which has been widely adapted because of its ability to payoff even with high interest rate finance. Now get this, in 1980, a botanist, I believe, from Canada was able to get published by the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, a report on the ability to cultivate immense quantities of glycol, which is the root hydrocarbon of petroleum, from a particular algae. A certain fresh water algae, when cultured in salt water with a lot of human sewage added would "bloom", despite its dislike of the salt. Its method of survival was to secrete enough glycol to coat its outer membranes, which it had to continuously renew. Bingo, human cultured glycol, which was very pure and could be used straight accross as a substitute for diesel. Better yet, this stuff, in the tropical zones, can be made to produce 150,000 gallons of glycol per acre per year. This fellow was immediately hired by the Chase Manhattan bank and was sent to Florida to develop a patentable strain of the algae. There has been absolutely NO NEWS on this since that time. Do you get the drift? I am quite familiar with this story because I had three wannabe million gallon year alcohol fuel plants looking for finance when they dropped the price of oil and shot the interest rates to 20%. I went bankrupt as a result and lost my entire life momentum up to that point. Let me spell it out in additional detail. There is no shortage of "oil". There never will be. When the easy, dirty stuff gets short, the clean stuff will be cultured. In the meantime, the price of oil, and hence all energy, is highly regulated by the industrial feudal elites. I am quite positive that a planning group somewhere has even plotted the approximate timelines. And since a patent has limited life, you keep everything as a trade secret. And if a greenhorn (Iraq) tries to muscle into the feudal estate, you blow him away (which is especially easy to get accomplished if the town's Big Gun has his personal wealth tied up in oil). The only thing in my estimation which has delayed the reckoning was the unexpectably large supplies of methane which have been found. This has kept the fundamental cost of energy relatively low. In my opinion, given the apparant value choices of the power elites, the long term trend is to increasing feudalization of the world. The fundamental equation is the high capital cost for producing something. This is fully in accord with the corporate/banker/politico view of the world. High capital cost for entry into a turf keeps most players out. Notice how nothing social reduces entry costs into a market, nor reduces capital costs for producing something. There are a great many things now, through social policy, which require capital outlays substantially higher than just fifteen years ago, even after you account for inflation. It is all part of the scenario, it all is a manifestation of the power elite mentality. I don't call it conspiracy, like a lot of half-asssed idiot schizoids are exclaiming, because it is not in the common understanding of that term, but it definitely is a class function. What does it matter that small businesses are squeezed out of a turf? Mega-corporations can do it more rationally, more profitably, goes the thinking. Americans, who as a herd are determined to deny class reality for themselves individually, (while unabashedly whoring after position in the feudal order) are falling deeper and deeper into the phenomenon. I believe the current situation, without the x factor, is nearly irreversible by will power. Now, enter simple overunity devices. Something "impossible" to conceive. The unpredictable. The unknown. The X factor. These devices will fundamentally alter how EVERYTHING on this planet works. Pretty big stakes. There are huge numbers of guys out there who are very bright and who rightfully have an immense distate for the established order of things. It is like pouring gasoline on smoldering garbage. It is going to be a whale of a lot of fun. So I hope that the big companies legitimize this new stuff ASAP. And I hope that it is profitable for them, I truly do. I hope you, Frank, are extremely successful at getting your company moving on it. What you are doing IS VERY IMPORTANT WORK, and I do not mean in any fashion in the above conversation to belittle the role of major corporations or your hopes in your job situation. But I don't have to hope that the fleet of foot will get very fleet. They will and the future belongs to their leveling work, I hope. My my, I certainly got carried away, didn't I? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 19:23:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA13269 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA13246 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA22090 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:57:29 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601090257.SAA22090@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 06:57:16 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:10 AM 1/8/96 PST, you wrote: >*** Reply to note of 01/06/96 16:18 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads >Ahem Scott! Cough, cough, putting the thing in a series network with >some external resistors to balance the current loops was MY suggestion >to Dennis, in MAY. Give it a try, AFTER the first successful run. >- >VORTEX Land people. Although I do think that Jed's observations and the >work by Miley give us the need to follow this claim and prove/disprove/improve >on it, I am somewhat worried about Dennis' work. In recent conversation with >Dennis, I discovered that not only does he have a total distain for computers >(unusual) he also has no interest or use for chart recorders. (This goes >into the odd/bizzare catagory.) Anyway, this means all his observations are >with Log Book and "meters". Does this "bother" anyone the way it bother's >me? I hope that Miley's group (and do believe) is using AT LEAST chart re- >corders, if not full blown digital data gathering. >- >Comments? > Digital data gathering is pretty easy now to setup and definitely is not very expensive anymore. People should do it right smartly on the digital path on the second go round, using simple meters to get the setup right and the initial run right. Digital does introduce the possibility of a software calibration confusion so it is best to use the simple techniques first to make sure you have the right magnitude of order, probes that work properly, and/or correct averaging, then use digital to do the complete run with complete numbers for the writeup. That way you can generate graphs directly and eliminate human math errors for the graphs. There is room in the universe for analog hands-on thinker-tinker-doers who can't stand computers...let's not get into class warefare about computer use. I love em. I hate em. And most certainly, they don't necessarily do the job better unless you are dealing with events and scales beyond the bandwidth of the human nervous system. Then, they are essential. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 19:32:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA15842 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA15810 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tZUTq-0005SJC; Mon, 8 Jan 96 21:12 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:12:10 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601090243.SAA21333@big.aa.net> from "Michael Mandeville" at Jan 9, 96 06:43:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote" > I left the thing running all weekend with about .8 watts of electrolysis > power (8 volts .1 amps) Say, how'd you get it to run at that high impedance (80 ohms)? Also, were you using a constant current supply? If so, what was your max voltage setting? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 19:35:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA15496 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.indirect.com (root@ns1.indirect.com [165.247.1.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA15438; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.247.24.59 (s59.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.59]) by ns1.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA00649; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:08:18 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:08:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199601090308.UAA00649@ns1.indirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Reed Huish Subject: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com, neotech@world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Four years ago I started an energy management company in the Phoenix area, which has grown at a rapid rate with several offices in the US and Canada. My purpose for starting this company was to develop the resources to finance, then eventually manufacture and market a proven free energy technology. In the course of my networking with several inventors in this field, I provided development funding to an inventor in return for the world-wide license to manufacture and market his technology. We have since independently verified a prototype producing approximately 1,000 watts of AC power at 300%+ over-unity. This technology is solid-state and extremely simple to manufacture. We anticipate manufacturing a 15 Kw home power system about the size of a microwave oven with an end-user cost of $4,000. As both an entrepreneur and an investor, it is my prediction that all other forms of new energy generation, including cold fusion, cavitation, electrostatic, and magnetic-rotating type generators will become obsolete as solid state receivers become dominant in the new energy age. They simply cannot meet the reliability and production cost of solid state ZPE receivers. I am convinced we have the leading solid state ZPE technology. In the new energy field, inasmuch as 1995 was the year for breakthroughs, then 1996 is the year for commercialization. We intend to be the leader of the new energy field. The challenge to the pioneers in this field will be to apply the best manufacturing and marketing programs to bring these products to the consumer around the world. In other words, the challenge no longer rests with the inventors, but with the entrepreneurs who have the vision to commercialize these products properly. We are prepared for the challenge and invite all competitors in this new field. We already have the beginnings of a dealer network in the US and Canada who will market our home generator. We expect to begin production of a home power generator in August of this year. I am making this “private” announcement for three reasons: 1. We in are looking for individuals to join our company with experience in engineering, manufacturing, and marketing. You should be able to relocate to Arizona. We are interested in learning about your background, experience, along with ideas of what you feel you could add to our organization. 2. Approximately half of the financing needed to scale-up our technology and begin production is in place. We are not interested in venture capital, but private investors. A complete business plan is available. Prototype demonstrations will be made to prospective investors and/or their technical associates after a letter-of-intent is signed. 3. Last, we intent to begin world-wide deployment of our product this year, so we are looking for groups of individuals or companies who can represent our technology, including the manufacture of our generators in their own country. A proven track record and adequate financial resources is necessary. Any individuals or groups interested in the above should contact me via private e-mail or fax as listed below. I would ask that this announcement not be re-posted. In due time, we will make the proper public announcements in late 1996 AFTER we have several hundred home generators installed. A British statesman once said, “The Kingdom of Heaven runs on righteousness, but the Kingdom of Earth runs on oil.” We intend to change all that. It is our objective to restore true freedom and environmental security to the individual as our goal is to convert one-half of old energy production methods to our technology within 10 years. Here’s to the beginning of the energy revolution... Reed Huish Fax: (602) 899-0875 Email: reedh@indirect.com From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 20:11:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22428 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA22394 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:50:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tZV4U-0005TiC; Mon, 8 Jan 96 21:50 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: vtx: Cravens To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:50:02 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As long as we are venting our secret whispers -- just on general principles it does give me pause that the best CETI results always seem to have Cravens running the controls. He was, after all, also at the Miley demo (SOFE) at least as I understand it. Now this could be quite reasonable, since perhaps he is particularly good at making the thing happen. But there always is that fractional doubt lingering. Still, he would have to be of nearly magical skill to pull one over on the rather demanding tests Jed carried out. So that little voice is very very faint -- but not quite totally silent. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 21:51:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA11094 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA11078 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-186.austin.eden.com (net-1-186.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.186]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id XAA08312 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:39:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:39:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601090539.XAA08312@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Cravens X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Logajan says: >As long as we are venting our secret whispers -- >...demanding tests Jed carried out. So that little voice >is very very faint -- but not quite totally silent. I hear you, John and that is what Martin Sevior, Puthoff & I hope to clear up once and for all later this month when Cravens and his cell visits EarthTech. We're probably not going to get to release a detailed report until CETI permits it but you will know right after the visit whether or not we were convinced of the excess heat. With Martin's excellent contributions, we are planning a very rigorous test. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 22:19:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA06286 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA06246 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-186.austin.eden.com (net-1-186.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.186]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id XAA06903 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:11:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:11:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601090511.XAA06903@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: an event! - high impedance X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A John Logajan said: >Say, how'd you get it to run at that high impedance (80 ohms)? Good question, John. The cell is now full of a mixture of the little Ni balls and the Pd-coated alumina beads. For some reason, this combo is just high impedance. Today, when I rebuilt things and loaded it up again with a more-or-less helter-skelter arrangement of the beads and balls (they're quite different in size and do not pack particularly well together)...the impedance came out almost exactly the same!? >Also, were you using a constant current supply? If so, what was your >max voltage setting? Constant voltage in this case...and I don't know what the current limit was set at. It's adjustable and could have been all the way up which is 2 amps...i.e. 16 watts max at 8 volts. Even that power, at my flow rate of about 2 ml/sec would've only resulted in about a 2 degree delta-T. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 22:38:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA09460 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA09440 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-186.austin.eden.com (net-1-186.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.186]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id XAA07875 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:30:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:30:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601090530.XAA07875@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: an (unobserved) event! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > >Might you consider putting together a PC-based video timelapse system? >I've not tried this myself, but I think a $100 Connectix camera and a PC >with a 100M hard drive could record days and days of JPEG frames once per >minute. Have a spare PC kicking around? I like. Where can I get such a camera? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 22:38:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA18874 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA18865 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p6.aa.net (s3c0p6.aa.net [204.157.220.138]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA00628 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:29:24 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601090629.WAA00628@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 10:30:28 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: an (unobserved) event! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:30 PM 1/8/96 -0600, you wrote: >> >>Might you consider putting together a PC-based video timelapse system? >>I've not tried this myself, but I think a $100 Connectix camera and a PC >>with a 100M hard drive could record days and days of JPEG frames once per >>minute. Have a spare PC kicking around? > >I like. Where can I get such a camera? > would the Snappy, which can be acquired at Egghead or Computer City, be suitable? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From mwm@aa.net Mon Jan 8 23:34:14 1996 Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA26983 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p2.aa.net (s3c0p2.aa.net [204.157.220.134]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA03439 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:32:18 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601090732.XAA03439@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 11:33:28 +0800 To: billb@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter Status: RO X-Status: For your information, Bill, I sent this to Reed Huish hoping to bring him into the Vortex fold. Please do not post it yet, but I may post it myself in a day or two...I suggest that other Vortexians use their angles on things to try to pull this bear out of the woods. You might therefore whisper in some appropriate ears. I am. Particularly, it might be propicious to get Tinsley and Mallove chewing on his ear. >Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 11:25:03 +0800 >To: Reed Huish >From: Michael Mandeville >Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter > >My my, said the spider to the fly, please do come in. > >Even as I was pontificating about the energy field and telling my tales about the energy elites and predicting that hotshot small companies were going to lead the pack, basically in support of Hugo's rant, presto bingo, the cosmic magician pulls this rabbit out of the hat to illustrate my point. > >> >>We have since independently verified a prototype producing approximately 1,000 >>watts of AC power at 300%+ over-unity. This technology is solid-state and >>extremely simple to manufacture. We anticipate manufacturing a 15 Kw home power >>system about the size of a microwave oven with an end-user cost of $4,000. >> > >Sounds great! Congrats to you, if you have a working prototype. But do you really want to make the following claim given the infinite capacity of the universe to spring out one surprise after another: > >>As both an entrepreneur and an investor, it is my prediction that all other >>forms of new energy generation, including cold fusion, cavitation, >>electrostatic, and magnetic-rotating type generators will become obsolete as >>solid state receivers become dominant in the new energy age. They simply cannot >>meet the reliability and production cost of solid state ZPE receivers. I am >>convinced we have the leading solid state ZPE technology. > >I admire your ardor and it gives me hope that you know what you are doing but you are going to waste a lot of time defending a point which really does not need to be either asserted or defended.. > >> >>I am making this "private" announcement for three reasons: >> >>I would ask that this announcement not be re-posted. In due time, we will make >>the proper public announcements in late 1996 AFTER we have several hundred home >>generators installed. >> > >The vortex group will immediately try to sniff this out and they will be discussing this for months, with or without you. I suggest you consider involving the entire vortex group forthrightly and directly. There are some very big heavyweights related to this connection, and some, like myself, are filtering for, shall we say, very interesting personal connections. > >>A British statesman once said, "The Kingdom of Heaven runs on righteousness, but >>the Kingdom of Earth runs on oil." We intend to change all that. It is our >>objective to restore true freedom and environmental security to the individual >>as our goal is to convert one-half of old energy production methods to our >>technology within 10 years. >> > >I am glad to hear it. It is long over due. The Vortex group is an excellent place to start. Seriously consider enlisting the listserv to generate a worldwide network very rapidly. > >>Here's to the beginning of the energy revolution... >> > >Indeed > >> >>Reed Huish >>Fax: (602) 899-0875 >>Email: reedh@indirect.com >> > >Consider me interested. I can provide connections to both capital and very large markets, on the basis of a demonstrable prototype, connections to people who can help you actualize your dreams in a very big way. It is essential that the prototype clearly and unambigously demonstrate what you intend to sell. The people I filter for are not interested in concepts, only immediately testable results. > >Secondly, I can provide a virtual business organization using computers and internet telecommunications capabilities. We are in the process of installing a commerce internet server in about 60 days. > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 00:42:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA03572 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA03555 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA01180; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:32:46 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:32:46 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: an event! In-Reply-To: <199601081559.JAA17212@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How much do the Ni beads expand upon absorption of hydrogen? Could the mass of beads have locked themselves into one solid mass, and ruptured the enclosure simply by expansion? Pd expands by about 16% when it absorbs deuterium. Maybe this is why plastic-cored beads are a good thing, same surface area but less metal volume. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From fznidarsic@gpu.com Tue Jan 9 06:19:59 1996 Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA00374 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 06:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04049 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:19:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199601091419.AA04049@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:19:38 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: Announcem Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 09:18:57 EST Status: RO X-Status: -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC -> JOHN W BARRON JR John I don't know this guy. He may be a crackpot. He may be serious. He looks like the kind of person you were looking for. Frank Znidarsic -> VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:08:18 -0700 From: Reed Huish Subject: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com, neotech@world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Four years ago I started an energy management company in the Phoenix area= , which=20 has grown at a rapid rate with several offices in the US and Canada. My = purpose=20 for starting this company was to develop the resources to finance, then=20 eventually manufacture and market a proven free energy technology. In the course of my networking with several inventors in this field, I pr= ovided=20 development funding to an inventor in return for the world-wide license t= o=20 manufacture and market his technology. =20 We have since independently verified a prototype producing approximately = 1,000=20 watts of AC power at 300%+ over-unity. This technology is solid-state an= d=20 extremely simple to manufacture. We anticipate manufacturing a 15 Kw hom= e power=20 system about the size of a microwave oven with an end-user cost of $4,000. As both an entrepreneur and an investor, it is my prediction that all oth= er=20 forms of new energy generation, including cold fusion, cavitation,=20 electrostatic, and magnetic-rotating type generators will become obsolete= as=20 solid state receivers become dominant in the new energy age. They simply= cannot=20 meet the reliability and production cost of solid state ZPE receivers. I= am=20 convinced we have the leading solid state ZPE technology. In the new energy field, inasmuch as 1995 was the year for breakthroughs,= then=20 1996 is the year for commercialization. We intend to be the leader of th= e new=20 energy field. The challenge to the pioneers in this field will be to app= ly the=20 best manufacturing and marketing programs to bring these products to the=20 consumer around the world. In other words, the challenge no longer rests= with=20 the inventors, but with the entrepreneurs who have the vision to commerci= alize=20 these products properly. We are prepared for the challenge and invite all competitors in this new = field.=20 We already have the beginnings of a dealer network in the US and Canada = who=20 will market our home generator. We expect to begin production of a home = power=20 generator in August of this year. I am making this =93private=94 announcement for three reasons: 1. We in are looking for individuals to join our company with experience = in=20 engineering, manufacturing, and marketing. You should be able to relocat= e to=20 Arizona. We are interested in learning about your background, experience= , along=20 with ideas of what you feel you could add to our organization. 2. Approximately half of the financing needed to scale-up our technology = and=20 begin production is in place. We are not interested in venture capital, = but=20 private investors. A complete business plan is available. Prototype=20 demonstrations will be made to prospective investors and/or their technic= al=20 associates after a letter-of-intent is signed. 3. Last, we intent to begin world-wide deployment of our product this yea= r, so=20 we are looking for groups of individuals or companies who can represent o= ur=20 technology, including the manufacture of our generators in their own coun= try. A=20 proven track record and adequate financial resources is necessary. Any individuals or groups interested in the above should contact me via p= rivate=20 e-mail or fax as listed below. I would ask that this announcement not be re-posted. In due time, we wil= l make=20 the proper public announcements in late 1996 AFTER we have several hundre= d home=20 generators installed. A British statesman once said, =93The Kingdom of Heaven runs on righteous= ness, but=20 the Kingdom of Earth runs on oil.=94 We intend to change all that. It i= s our=20 objective to restore true freedom and environmental security to the indiv= idual=20 as our goal is to convert one-half of old energy production methods to ou= r=20 technology within 10 years. Here=92s to the beginning of the energy revolution... Reed Huish Fax: (602) 899-0875 Email: reedh@indirect.com From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 08:08:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA04710 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 06:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA04703 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 06:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA17750; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 06:55:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 06:55:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance In-Reply-To: <199601090511.XAA06903@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Constant voltage in this case...and I don't know what the current limit was > set at. It's adjustable and could have been all the way up which is 2 > amps...i.e. 16 watts max at 8 volts. Even that power, at my flow rate of > about 2 ml/sec would've only resulted in about a 2 degree delta-T. Is your pump OK? The whole incident could have been an overheat because the pump stopped. Would the pump jam itself on little nickel balls? Does it stop and start when its AC plug gets wiggled? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 08:44:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA18554 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA18463 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxuf03523; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17588; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:26:52 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 955425080096009FEPRI; 09 Jan 1996 08:25:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 09 Jan 1996 08:25:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: an event! To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/09/96 08:25:53 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/09/96 00:41 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: an event! Dieter: If Scott's beads are Ni, I can tell you the expansion from H2 absorption is minimal. The surface of the beads (Like 1000 Ang) can absorb like 300 PPM. Not enough to do a significant volume expansion of pure Ni. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 09:04:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA19745 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19734 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxug04819; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17681; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:34:53 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 233033080096009FEPRI; 09 Jan 1996 08:33:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 09 Jan 1996 08:33:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Cravens To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/09/96 08:33:28 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/08/96 20:10 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Cravens John: I have my doubts about Dennis too....However! See my letter in the last edition of Gene's Inf. Energy. It should be noted the observations refered to in there occurred 6 hours or more after Cravens LEFT. And he last loaded that cell with beads some 60 hours before...! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 09:37:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA20585 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20488 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxug05189; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17725; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:38:51 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 040838080096009FEPRI; 09 Jan 1996 08:38:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 09 Jan 1996 08:38:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/09/96 08:38:06 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/08/96 19:34 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter I don't know if this guy is serious or not. But my parents do live down in Pheonix. Depending on circumstances and cash flow I may visit them again in March/April. I will gladly check this fellow out then. Mark H. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 10:18:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA20852 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20837 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxug05559; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08024; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:40:52 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 415839080096009FEPRI; 09 Jan 1996 08:39:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 09 Jan 1996 08:39:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/09/96 08:39:57 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/08/96 19:23 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Playing with beads Good reply on the digital versus analoge hand work Mike M. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 10:24:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA28383 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.indirect.com (root@ns2.indirect.com [165.247.1.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA28355 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.247.24.5 (s5.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.5]) by ns2.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA21172 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:28:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:28:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199601091728.KAA21172@ns2.indirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Reed Huish Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 09 Jan 1996, "MHUGO@EPRI" wrote: >*** Reply to note of 01/08/96 19:34 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter >I don't know if this guy is serious or not. But my parents do live down >in Pheonix. Depending on circumstances and cash flow I may visit them >again in March/April. I will gladly check this fellow out then. Mark H. I too would be suspicious if I read an announcement like this, as it seems "too good to be true." Not to boast, but if you parents live in Phoenix they might have read an article or two about me in the Arizona Republic or Mesa/Tempe Tribune in regards to my energy management company. Anyway, I am a real person with ambitious goals, but I do have the technology to back them up. I am not interested in meeting people just so they can "check me out." I simply have too much to do in the next 12 months. However, if there is some purpose to us meeting, I welcome the visit. At this stage, I just naturally distrust utility companies & since EPRI is funded by utility companies, you know where I'm coming from. I been fighting utility companies for 4 years now with my energy management company. I know this isn't the same all around the country (some begrudgingly support DSM), but tell me this...Why does a utility company need a marketing department of 50 people when they are a monopoly? Anyway, from your posts I can see that you are not typical EPRI personnel. By the way, its 78 degrees today & we have a foot of sand on the ground. We should reach the low 80's by this week. Just thought I'd put in a plug for Phoenix. - Reed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 10:38:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02164 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02154 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-208.austin.eden.com (net-1-208.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.208]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA17680 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:52:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:52:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601091752.LAA17680@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: why did it crack? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Thanks for the suggestions, gang. No, there's no sign of intense heating, no pieces spalled off, just cracks that appear to originate from the areas where the clamp touched the tube. I looked up Lexan (and acrylic, BTW) in a plastics book and it says that both are subject to "stress cracking". Interestingly, I've never heard this term before...seems almost redundant doesn't it. Can anyone produce the formal definition of stress cracking? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 10:50:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02502 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02477 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-208.austin.eden.com (net-1-208.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.208]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA17784 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:54:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:54:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601091754.LAA17784@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Beaty said: >Is your pump OK? The whole incident could have been an overheat because >the pump stopped. Would the pump jam itself on little nickel balls? >Does it stop and start when its AC plug gets wiggled? It was "still" running when I got in and observed the mess. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 11:07:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA20589 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20482 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.66] ([204.57.193.66]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA25491 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:05:44 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:41:58 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >John Logajan said: > >>Say, how'd you get it to run at that high impedance (80 ohms)? > Scott said: >Good question, John. The cell is now full of a mixture of the little Ni >balls and the Pd-coated alumina beads. For some reason, this combo is just >high impedance. Today, when I rebuilt things and loaded it up again with a >more-or-less helter-skelter arrangement of the beads and balls (they're >quite different in size and do not pack particularly well together)...the >impedance came out almost exactly the same!? > [snip] Are you using the same electrolyte? It sounds like the *electrolyte* resistance has changed. Maybe a significant chemical change has taken place in the elecrtrolyte? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 11:26:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA11940 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA11915 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.69] ([204.57.193.69]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA25825 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:17:38 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:53:50 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: an (unobserved) event! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 11:30 PM 1/8/96 -0600, you wrote: >>> >>>Might you consider putting together a PC-based video timelapse system? >>>I've not tried this myself, but I think a $100 Connectix camera and a PC >>>with a 100M hard drive could record days and days of JPEG frames once per >>>minute. Have a spare PC kicking around? >> >>I like. Where can I get such a camera? >> > >would the Snappy, which can be acquired at Egghead or Computer City, be >suitable? >____________________________________ >MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >Michael Mandeville, publisher >mwm@aa.net >http://www.aa.net/~mwm I think the above is a great idea - especially for recording DMM values if one does not have a/d input. Just put a digital clock in the scene and you have a time stamp. Just running a plain VCR might be useful for short (4 hr.) experiments, particularly if you have a really good fast forward. I have used this technique before. My son and I tried to record a signature pulse from the comet impacts on Jupiter by video taping an oscilloscope attached to a makeshift "radio telescope". It would be fairly easy to trigger a video recorder using a trigger set for a particular temperature. It would also be easy to trigger on sound, or on the breaking of a fine wire wrapped around the cell. The trigger could either activate a solenoid to press a button, or acivate an infra-red remote control circuit. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 12:05:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA18251 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA18221 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxus25746; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25387; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:21:57 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 635620110096009FEPRI; 09 Jan 1996 11:20:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 09 Jan 1996 11:20:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/09/96 11:20:55 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/09/96 10:24 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter Reed---you need a little background information here. I may come on to the Vortex through the EPRI net, but I am not employed by them. I am employeed by the local utility. As far as "marketing" goes, we too have a marketing department. I can't give you an example from NSP that is as direct as this, but when I was working for the Omaha Public Power District one of the people in the "marketing" department down there worked with one of the biggest foundrys in the area to convince them to switch from gas to electric for their "melts". Although it superficially looked like gas was more economical, because of CONTROL aspects of using the power, they saved $500,000 the first year compared to gas. There are similar "marketing" strategies going on here, I can assure you. Also, our "marketing" department is heavily into "energy conservation" these days too, so that keeps them busy. - I don't know how long you have been reading the Vortex, but I will put in a plug for the Clean Energy Technology people. (And something that I think can, and should be used as a standard for any an all claims of "excess" energy from "unusual" sources.) They have been very open to allowing a variety of 3rd party observers run and test their device. They have been jealous of the "active material", and will not give out samples, but they do allow people to make input and output power measurements. And the "run time" for such measurements have exceeded all known "chemical" energy sources on various occassions. - I see nothing wrong with a "claiment" wanting to "be on site" during evaluations. Also nothing wrong with "black boxing" some of the equipment. - If, however, someone makes a claim---and then trys to establish it with "testimonials", or their own "lab data", or even "3rd Party" lab data, in this realm that makes one immediately suspicious. - You may want to ask Bill B. for those interchanges regarding one Imilio Takahashi to see what you may be in for from this group with regard your technological claims.... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 12:40:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA21977 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA21949 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-208.austin.eden.com (net-1-228.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.228]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA27097 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:55:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:55:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601091955.NAA27097@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace said: > >Are you using the same electrolyte? It sounds like the *electrolyte* >resistance has changed. Maybe a significant chemical change has taken >place in the elecrtrolyte? Nope. It's always 1 M LiSO4 and nothing seems to change about it...of course I haven't done any titrations but you'd expect to see someting (e.g. precipitates, etc.) if big changes were occurring. Also, yesterday, when I cleaned up and restarted, I had to make up new electrolyte...same impedance. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From reedh@indirect.com Tue Jan 9 12:49:32 1996 Received: from ns1.indirect.com (root@ns1.indirect.com [165.247.1.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA00363 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:49:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.247.24.34 (s34.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.34]) by ns1.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA08424 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:49:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:49:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199601092049.NAA08424@ns1.indirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Reed Huish Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter To: William Beaty In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, William Beaty wrote: >Hi Reed, I'm interested, tell me more. Thank you for the reply. I think you do a great service, spending countless hours with no expectation of compensation. I don't feel comfortable releasing the technical details yet. That will all come at the proper time. As I have written others, my intention is to build & sell products, not to get involved in technical discussions. What else would you like to know? >A suggestion: consider organizing your operation via internet, using >password-access for security. For example, when someone like me >expresses interest, rather than starting a whole individual email >communication or sending megabytes of files, you could assign me a unique >password which allows access to your company's private website. The site >would be divided up into segments for investors, consulting/employment >opportunities, general info, etc., with various access privileges >assigned to the password. We intent to setup a web site in a few months. And password security will be implemented as you have suggested. Until then I'll keep communicating with people via email, phone & fax. - Reed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 12:53:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA25003 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:15:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24977 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA09823; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:14:07 -0500 Date: 09 Jan 96 15:12:01 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: ZPE, new machine Message-ID: <960109201201_100433.1541_BHG116-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex First, my great appreciation to Dr Puthoff for his concise and clear exposition. I was pretty sure he wouldn't be drawn on my main question - which I see Mr Atiyah is now himself asking on the Science forum - but one can always try. Mark, I was teasing about the tourist-shooting. Anyway, my informants tell me that the more sporting of your countrymen give us a one-hour start. Michael, You say I'm 'bloody obvious', and I am almost weeping with gratitude (sob). So many nasty people think I'm devious. Devious? Moi? Reed, >From one who is almost snowed under (no, not literally, we are quite warm over here despite being some 700 miles N of Boston and presumably a couple of thousand north of Atlanta) with supposed over-unity electrical machines, I find to my surprise that my instincts tell me you are on to something here. I for one would very much like to run my pinkies and my meters over it - and not just for idle curiosity, either. That isn't for 'validation' exactly, more so that *we* would know too.... Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 13:29:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA02752 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA02699 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07413 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:47:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA17434; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:47:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:47:17 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601091947.OAA17434@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <199601081559.JAA17212@natashya.eden.com> (little@eden.com) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: little@eden.com (Scott Little) said: > Last night my CETI cell approximation experienced an event! > I left the thing running all weekend with about .8 watts of > electrolysis power (8 volts .1 amps) to see if I could eventually > load up the various balls and beads in the cell and get some > action. Puthoff saw the thing at 11:00 PM last night and it was > fine...not producing any noticeable excess heat. > This AM, all the electrolyte was on the table and the floor!. The > cell body, a piece of Lexan (polycarbonate) tubing 1" ID with 1/8" > wall cracked in several places, mainly where the clamp was > touching it... Two interesting possibilities. First the mundane: You could have built up enough H2 in the beads to have it discharge all at once and cause a small explosion. Issues of how to get enough H2 and how to get it to discharge all at once are left to you. Second, if I am right about ZPE, you have to get rid of normal adsorbed gases on the spheres before you will get any noticable effect. If the adsorbed gas was mostly air, nacent H could form H2O and/or NH3 eventually you would have some clean surfaces. (From experience, O2 is the hardest to get rid of.) If this is the case look for my post on boiling out alcohol from sci.physics.fusion for a way to get clean degassed metal surfaces. The only difference would be that you would need some degassed water to feed back it. (Slow boil with a restricted or small vent can do that, but be sure to have a pressure cooker type vent as well. You don't want high pressure, just to keep air out.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 13:29:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA03544 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA03509 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA10568 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:59:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id LAA17035; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:59:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:59:15 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601091659.LAA17035@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <960108000720_100433.1541_BHG67-1@CompuServe.COM> (message from Chris Tinsley on 07 Jan 96 19:07:20 EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Energy and the ZPF Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> asks: > "Among the experiments mentioned was one by Tesla many years ago where he > apparently blew up the private power station he was using with an > unexplained surge of energy (he was messing with very high > power/currents)." Telsa did it, I've done it and set off a Geiger Counter, and I know of one case which blew breakers at the local substation. The problem is that almost all pinches disrupt before they get that far. (I won't go though the math here, but beyond a certain current density, you get a negative voltage drop across an arc. In pulsed arc lamps, the power supply is designed to withstand an out of control pinch, but when prototyping, sometimes you get it wrong. It was my introduction to the engineering rule that if something happens one time in a million you had better compute just how often that is.) > "An apparent common thread with several situations was the use of high > frequency AC currents. Actually low-impedence high current circuts. > "The interesting aspect was the suggestion that just maybe, posssiby, > perhaps, there might be some way of 'stealing' zero point energy. Yes, but AFIAK, the only theoretically known way to do that is through manipulation of the Casmir Effect. > "The energy is very small, and presumably quite impractical - but hey, > once the principal is established, then the door is open, even if just by > a crack. Yes, the door is open... > "So, any comments, suggestions, volunteers? - but please, keep it cool." > "The whole ZPE thing has been promoted by people who understand > the words of physics, but don't understand any physics. Zero > Point Energy has to do with the fact that the minimum energy in a > system is not zero. Nonetheless, it is still the minimum - you > can't get any lower than the minimum, so you can't extract any > energy. If you could go lower, you weren't at the minimum." > "I don't think so. If you have a theory that says "You can do > A, but not B", and you can do A, that hardly is evidence *for* > the ability to do B. There is a prediction for how much energy > (and no more) one can get from the Casimir effect. That's how > much you do get." Thermodynamical systems cannot extract ZPE, but mechanical systems can. The only problem is that to extract "usable" amounts of ZPE, you need conductors extremely close together, with a non-simple trajectory. Not easy to do, especially with all the quantum effects that you run into... Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From taoshum-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 13:31:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA07510 for taoshum-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from Walden.MO.NET (root@walden.mo.net [199.250.196.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA07486 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from @mail.mo.net ([130.38.82.112]) by Walden.MO.NET (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA09007 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:26:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199601092126.PAA09007@Walden.MO.NET> X-Sender: murmur@mail.mo.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 15:21:23 -0600 To: taoshum-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dixon Subject: Re: hum: forwarded message Sender: owner-taoshum-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: taoshum-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:39 PM 1/9/96 -0600, Zack Widup wrote: > >> >>Has anyone mentioned the ability to hear meteors? Is it related to >>the Taos hum phenom? I have had several instance where I have 'heard' >>the 'noise' from meteors. In several cases, I 'heard' them before I >>looked up and saw the flash of the meteor. In all cases the meteors >>were larger than average and they were not typically associated with >>known meteor showers. Let me know or pass this on as you see fit. >> > >Hi, > >I had that happen once. It was a very cold, clear February night (~2 AM) >and a huge fireball passed overhead. I heard a hiss and looked up and saw it. >I've noticed enhanced sound travel in the winter quite often. High jets >often sound like they're passing right overhead! >Zack Widup >w9sz@prairienet.org The "hiss" must not have been sound (not in the usual sense, at least!). To be a fireball, the meteor would have had to be very supersonic. A shock wave, such as from an object traveling at supersonic velocities, can travel at speeds greater than the speed of sound (possibly allowing you to hear it while the meteor was still visible), but it would certainly outrun the "hiss". Dave Dixon From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 14:04:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA09753 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA09715 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA20385; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:38:07 -0500 Date: 09 Jan 96 13:23:09 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Dennis not a magician Message-ID: <960109182309_72240.1256_EHB151-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan writes: "As long as we are venting our secret whispers -- just on general principles it does give me pause that the best CETI results always seem to have Cravens running the controls. He was, after all, also at the Miley demo (SOFE) at least as I understand it." When I spoke to Miley before SOFE, Dennis was nowhere around, but the cell was producing excess heat. Dennis cannot be in three places at once, but heat has been observed simultaneously at U. Ill, U. Mo., and back in New Mexico. It is true that Dennis was there during the actual SOFE conference, but it was working before he arrived and it still works today as far as I know. The calorimeter at U. Ill. is reportedly similar to the one Dennis used at ICCF5. He recommended a brand of precision flowmeter. He even mailed them a handy graduated cylinder with a stopcock, which is used as a gas trap and manual flowmeter. However, the Post Office smashed the graduated cylinder so Miley says they made their own. In any case, this is simple equipment and a simple experiment and Miley has been doing experiments for a long time. He cannot be fooled into assembling a flow calorimeter that does not work. I have asked him repeatedly whether he has any doubts about his own calorimetry. He said no, he has no doubts. He said his is not a particularly precise or high tech calorimeter but that does not matter because the effect is so large. He and I both felt that the quality of the Power-Gen equipment left much to be desired, but he expressed no doubts that it was working. It would have been easier to use with better equipment. It would have looked more professional. But when you come down to brass tacks it does not matter. You can do good physics with medieval equipment. Kepler and Galileo did, after all. Galileo invented the thermometer in 1593. None of this guarantees that the cell will work on command at Scott Little's lab, by the way. I expect it will, because it appears to be amazingly robust and it travels well, but you never know. I think it takes a fair amount of head scratching, tweaking, cursing and knocking on wood. A bit like starting a hand-cranked 1919 model Flivver (Model T Ford), something my mother could do but I probably could not. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 15:13:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA22769 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA22713 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tZmrG-0005SXC; Tue, 9 Jan 96 16:49 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Dennis not a magician To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:49:34 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960109182309_72240.1256_EHB151-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 9, 96 01:23:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > true that Dennis was there during the actual SOFE conference, but it was > working before he arrived and it still works today as far as I know. Good. That puts the issue to rest. Thanks. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 15:27:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA14963 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA14910 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p2.aa.net (s3c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.142]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA03476 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:05:23 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601092205.OAA03476@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 02:04:48 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: ZPE, new machine Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Reed, > >>From one who is almost snowed under (no, not literally, we are quite warm over >here despite being some 700 miles N of Boston and presumably a couple of >thousand north of Atlanta) with supposed over-unity electrical machines, I find >to my surprise that my instincts tell me you are on to something here. I for >one would very much like to run my pinkies and my meters over it - and not just >for idle curiosity, either. That isn't for 'validation' exactly, more so that >*we* would know too.... > >Chris > moi too...me mother lives just 60 miles north of Phoenix and I need to see her anyway. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 04:39:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA11782 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA11761 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.19]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA06465 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:24:31 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601101224.XAA06465@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:26:19 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8 Jan 96 at 23:11, Scott Little wrote: > John Logajan said: > > >Say, how'd you get it to run at that high impedance (80 ohms)? > > Good question, John. The cell is now full of a mixture of the little Ni > balls and the Pd-coated alumina beads. For some reason, this combo is just > high impedance. Today, when I rebuilt things and loaded it up again with a > more-or-less helter-skelter arrangement of the beads and balls (they're > quite different in size and do not pack particularly well together)...the > impedance came out almost exactly the same!? Scott, How are you measuring the impedance? The impedance of the balls is probably negligible relative to that of the electrolyte, and therefore the total imedance of the cell is determined almost soley by the concentration and temerature of the electrolyte, and separation of the electrodes. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 04:39:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA11803 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA11779 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.19]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA06492 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:24:43 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601101224.XAA06492@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:26:18 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Announcement of New Free Energy Converter Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8 Jan 96 at 20:08, Reed Huish wrote: [snip] > We have since independently verified a prototype producing approximately 1,000 > watts of AC power at 300%+ over-unity. This technology is solid-state and If the device is 300% O-U and produces AC power, then it should be self sustaining. In which case it is infinitely O-U, not 300%. Please explain. > extremely simple to manufacture. We anticipate manufacturing a 15 Kw home power > system about the size of a microwave oven with an end-user cost of $4,000. Has the device been patented, and if so could you tell us the number? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 04:40:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA11796 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA11762 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:26:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-19.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.19]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA06456 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:24:28 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601101224.XAA06456@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:26:18 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: an (unobserved) event! Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8 Jan 96 at 17:03, William Beaty wrote: > > Might you consider putting together a PC-based video timelapse system? > I've not tried this myself, but I think a $100 Connectix camera and a PC > with a 100M hard drive could record days and days of JPEG frames once per > minute. Have a spare PC kicking around? > [snip] Or a real-time recording, that is triggered by the PC when readings deviate from the norm by at least 2 standard deviations? Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 06:45:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA24021 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 06:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA24006 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 06:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0ta1aM-0005RUC; Wed, 10 Jan 96 08:33 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:33:05 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601101224.XAA06465@tornado.netspace.net.au> from "Robin van Spaandonk" at Jan 10, 96 11:26:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > The impedance of the balls is probably negligible relative to that of > the electrolyte, and therefore the total imedance of the cell is > determined almost soley by the concentration and temerature of the > electrolyte, and separation of the electrodes. The odd thing about the CETI demo cell at PowerGen was that its impedance varied from a low of 40 ohms or so, to a high of 400 ohms or so. Assuming the cell geometry didn't vary significantly between runs, nor that the average temperature didn't vary greatly, nor that the electrolyte varied in concentration, one is left to speculate that the entire variation in impedance could only be located in the bead-to-bead contact. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 07:29:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA29443 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 07:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA29420 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 07:12:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxxs02218; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23727; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 07:11:58 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 423810070096010FEPRI; 10 Jan 1996 07:10:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 10 Jan 1996 07:10:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: ZPE, new machine To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/10/96 07:10:37 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/09/96 15:27 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: ZPE, new machine Mike M. Excuse what may be obvious ignorance in reading the electronic gobbly gook on our Email, but where do you live??? Thanks! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:35:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA10529 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA10502 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:22:08 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA29380; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:20:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:20:49 -0500 Message-ID: <960110112048_112086343@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: reedh@indirect.com cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: 300% o/u Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Reed, A question. When you say 300% o/u, do you mean output/input ratio is three to one? If so, and the device outputs 1 KW, this would mean that it needs a driving power of 333 watts. Can you take the 333 watts from the output and have a stand-alone, self-powered device of 667 watts, and has this been done? If not, why not? Thanks, Hal Puthoff puthoff@aol.com From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 11:14:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA08365 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA08349 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:50:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:50:05 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199601101850.KAA08349@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:49:55 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I looked up Lexan (and acrylic, BTW) in a plastics book and it says that >both are subject to "stress cracking". Interestingly, I've never heard this >term before...seems almost redundant doesn't it. Can anyone produce the >formal definition of stress cracking? Stress cracking is supposed to mean that, above a critical crack size and under stress, a crack continues to grow. This is a common behavior for most materials that are not extremely ductile. Highly ductile materials stretch out a lot under stress; taffy is an extreme example. I looked up generic polycarbonate properties. It was noted that polycarbonates do poorly with strong bases and strong acids. It might not be the right material for CF electrolytic cells. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 11:56:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA17948 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17937 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:39:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p7.aa.net (s3c2p7.aa.net [204.157.220.155]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA28408 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:39:50 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601101939.LAA28408@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:39:15 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: ZPE, new machine Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:10 AM 1/10/96 PST, you wrote: >*** Reply to note of 01/09/96 15:27 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: ZPE, new machine >Mike M. Excuse what may be obvious ignorance in reading the electronic >gobbly gook on our Email, but where do you live??? Thanks! MDH > Seattle ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 13:56:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA00589 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 12:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA00555 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 12:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxyo15654; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25418; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 12:41:01 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 364839120096010FEPRI; 10 Jan 1996 12:39:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 10 Jan 1996 12:39:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/10/96 12:39:47 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/10/96 11:14 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? Mike Schaffer: LiSO4 is a salt. The electrolysis process could technically simulate a "strong base" or "acid", but only at the electrodes. The lexan should be fairly resistant to everything inthis cell. CETI uses pexiglass I believe. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 14:24:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA18331 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA18316 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxyu26419; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23338; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:12:04 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 351611140096010FEPRI; 10 Jan 1996 14:11:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 10 Jan 1996 14:11:14 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/10/96 14:11:15 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/10/96 13:56 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? With a little help from a "friend" (who shall go unnamed unless he consents to admit that he watches this BBS quietly) I am minded that Lexan = Pexiglass. Thus it would be safe to say that CETI has run quite a number of hours in Pexiglass/Lexan without trouble. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 15:46:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA04108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04075 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:36:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:36:20 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199601102336.PAA04075@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 01/10/96 13:56 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? >With a little help from a "friend" (who shall go unnamed unless he consents >to admit that he watches this BBS quietly) I am minded that Lexan = Pexiglass. >Thus it would be safe to say that CETI has run quite a number of hours in >Pexiglass/Lexan without trouble. MDH It was Scott Little who identified Lexan (trade name) as polycarbonate. I think he is right. Plexiglass, Perspex, etc. are trade names for polymethyl methacrylate (PMMA). PMMA is brittle and is a poor structural material. True, incompatibility with strong acid or base does not necessarily mean anything about compatibility with Li2SO4. I looked up more chemical compatibilities of polycarbonate. It is compatible with Na2SO4 (to 50 C) and K2SO4 (room temp.). It is attacked slightly by LiCl at room temp., but not by NaCl or KCl. I didn't find any data for Li2SO4. However, by interpolation polycarbonate might not be very resistant to Li2SO4. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 16:24:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA11170 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA11141 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA06329; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:11:39 -0500 Date: 10 Jan 96 19:08:27 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Message-ID: <960111000826_100060.173_JHB51-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin said, >> the total imedance of the cell is determined almost soley by the concentration and temerature of the electrolyte, and separation of the electrodes. << What if the gas generated within the beads structure collects in the bead mass until surface tension of the bubbles breaks down and they float to the top creating a froth which insulates the anode-cathode path. This would show as a varying cell resistance. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 00:32:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA27972 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 00:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA27954 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 00:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA03558 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:24:40 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:28:23 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 01/10/96 13:56 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? >With a little help from a "friend" (who shall go unnamed unless he consents >to admit that he watches this BBS quietly) I am minded that Lexan = Pexiglass. >Thus it would be safe to say that CETI has run quite a number of hours in >Pexiglass/Lexan without trouble. MDH Recently Jed wrote: Length of cell = 18 cm. Cell is swaddled in opaque plastic but the inlet and outlet tubes stick out the sides and they are 18 cm apart. The cell materials are glass but I do not know how much heat leaks out of there. With water going ^^^^^ <---- Note! straight through the null cell at reservoir temperature, the loss is a fraction of a degree; the Delta T alternates between 0.0 and -0.1, indicating a loss of <7 watts. Maybe -0.2 occasionally. >From the above I would infer that at least the Anaheim cell was glass. Maybe Jed is listening? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 06:12:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA23326 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 05:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA23317 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 05:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA23833; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:57:28 -0500 Date: 11 Jan 96 08:54:58 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Generic glass Message-ID: <960111135457_72240.1256_EHB111-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner asks me what kind of glass the Anaheim cell was made of. I don't know. It was covered with opaque plastic to keep people from seeing the new internal geometry of the cell. It must have been transparent or they would not have covered it, right? Seriously, I do not know what kind they use, but Patterson mentioned he has found a heavy, heat resistant variety. Older cells are made of two glass cylinders that slide together, one inside the other, like a sleeve. It is heavy duty material 4 or 5 mm thick I think. This is standard laboratory glassware. As you see from the ICCF5 photographs, they have used various different methods to hold the cylinders together. I am sure they do not use plastic. They need heat resistant materials. Sometimes, individual beads get very hot and cause damage (melting, distortion) to the plastic separators and other components. The Achilles heel of the present materials are the beads themselves. The plastic core sublimes at temperatures above 200 deg C, unless you put it under great pressure. I think they are looking for better substrate material, or maybe they have found it. I don't know. I have a hunch (call it an educated guess) that ceramic material might be a good choice. A little bird told me. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 07:33:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA04719 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA04684 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA05218; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:23:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:23:20 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? In-Reply-To: <199601101850.KAA08349@mail.eskimo.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 Schaffer@gav.gat.com wrote: [...] > I looked up generic polycarbonate properties. It was noted that > polycarbonates do poorly with strong bases and strong acids. It might not > be the right material for CF electrolytic cells. Scott uses 1M LiSO4, and if the anode is outside the bed-of-beads, the cathodic reaction on the beads would make the electrolyte gradually more alkaline. The LiSO4 itself would not react, but reduction of water would lead to hydrogen plus OH- ions; these would be neutralised by more Li+ ions wandering in from the anode end. You'd end up with a mix of the original LiSO4 and LiOH. Near the anode, the solution would go correspondingly acidic. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 07:48:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06835 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA06811 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA05603; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:37:38 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:37:38 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, I wrote: [...] > Scott uses 1M LiSO4, and if the anode is outside the bed-of-beads, the [...] ^^^^^ > original LiSO4 and LiOH. Near the anode, the solution would go ^^^^^ Bad error there, especially for a chemist; that should have been Li2SO4. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 07:50:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA07398 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA07388 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0taP6h-0005SSC; Thu, 11 Jan 96 09:40 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:40:03 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Dieter Britz" at Jan 11, 96 04:23:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz britz@kemi.aau.dk wrote: > Scott uses 1M LiSO4 Just a nit, but isn't that Li2SO4? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:00:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA09243 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA09190 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA05956; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:50:59 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:50:59 +0100 From: Dieter Britz Message-Id: <9601111550.AA05956@kemi.aau.dk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You got in there faster than I did. Damn it, aren't you fellows supposed to be asleep or something? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:38:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA14869 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA14832 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-13.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-13.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.13]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA02802 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:19:19 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601120019.LAA02802@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:21:21 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 10 Jan 96 at 8:33, John Logajan wrote: [my original response snipped] > The odd thing about the CETI demo cell at PowerGen was that its impedance > varied from a low of 40 ohms or so, to a high of 400 ohms or so. > > Assuming the cell geometry didn't vary significantly between runs, nor > that the average temperature didn't vary greatly, nor that the electrolyte > varied in concentration, one is left to speculate that the entire variation > in impedance could only be located in the bead-to-bead contact. One factor I forgot is the area of the balls actually exposed to the electrolyte. If they are partially covered with gas bubbles, these bubbles reduce the effective area. [snip] Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:40:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA14824 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA14804 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-13.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-13.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.13]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA02798 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:19:15 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601120019.LAA02798@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:21:21 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 10 Jan 96 at 19:08, Norman Horwood wrote: > Robin said, > > >> the total imedance of the cell is determined almost soley by the > concentration and temerature of the electrolyte, and separation of the > electrodes. << > > What if the gas generated within the beads structure collects in the bead mass > until surface tension of the bubbles breaks down and they float to the top > creating a froth which insulates the anode-cathode path. This would show as a > varying cell resistance. > Norman. Surely the implication here is that the surface lies between the cathode and the anode? If this were so, then no current would flow at all. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:55:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA19044 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA19023 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA22232; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:19:12 -0500 Date: 11 Jan 96 19:17:37 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CIS changes Message-ID: <960112001736_100060.173_JHB83-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: Jed's info on how to deal with CIS protocol changes. I've been using OzWIN 1.10 for some time, and while it has some bugs which the new version will iron out, hopefully before CIS completely kills ASCII access to forums, it is HMI compliant, and has very good off line thread and msg handling. The program will be available from the OzCIS forum library. I have the CIM programs which I use occasionally but only for manual access to CIS. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 02:16:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA05224 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 01:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA05211 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 01:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA29364; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 03:59:03 -0500 Date: 12 Jan 96 03:57:39 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Message-ID: <960112085738_100060.173_JHB64-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin said: >> Surely the implication here is that the surface lies between the cathode and the anode? If this were so, then no current would flow at all. << I think you misunderstand my point Robin. I was suggesting that, as in C-Zn cells you can get a high resistance created by the build-up of gas bubbles on the electrode. The "surface tension" I was referring to is what makes the bubbles cling to electrode until flotation forces the bubbles to the surface of the liquid, or out of the cell as the case might be. The process of bubble formation and the movement of those bubbles through the cell will show as a varying resistance. I take your point about there being no current flow at all if there were no contact between the electrolyte and the electrodes! Sorry if I was guilty of loose talk. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 23:53:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA25484 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 23:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA25476 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 23:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA18389; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:40:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:40:50 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: why did it crack? In-Reply-To: <9601111550.AA05956@kemi.aau.dk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, I wrote: > You got in there faster than I did. Damn it, aren't you fellows supposed to be > asleep or something? > Must be slipping. This was supposed to be a message for John Logajan, who got in with his correction to my "LiSO4" before I myself did. And me thinking USAmericans were still sleeping. Ar well. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 05:19:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA23629 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 05:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA23622 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 05:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA24438; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:04:55 -0500 Date: 12 Jan 96 08:03:37 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: ZPF and CF etc Message-ID: <960112130337_100433.1541_BHG105-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex I didn't comment on the "LiSO4", I reckon Dieter is allowed that one! I well recall my only experience of teaching in a school - it was during the Asian Flu epidemic of about 1960. At one point I wrote "Al++" on the board to represent an aluminium ion, and it took me a long time before the youngsters would trust that I had the faintest idea what I was talking about. I recall that I switched over into teaching them how a fission bomb works, which made me unpopular with the school. They should have been grateful, almost the entire staff were horizontal and I was keeping the kids out of trouble. I was thinking about ZPF. Has the Casimir force been allowed for in the study of catalysis? Might there not be 'electron walls' at some solid/fluid interfaces, pulling reactants together? That seems to me to be a pretty conventionalist idea, but I've not seen it anywhere. (I'll take my Nobel in used notes, thanks). On 'over-unity' (in the sense of ZPE) I still feel that the time factor (in slow, cold systems) would be important - things might happen which can't happen in plasmas? As to the fluctuating systems which could be imagined to transform ZPE into heat, I suppose that these are at least imaginable. I bet that they would need to be non-linear fluctuations. And, on that point, my own feeling is that o-u motors may well exist. The claimed ones indeed all seem to have this characteristic of non-linear behaviour, and I reckon that this non-linear behaviour could be simulated in a system without moving parts... What I do not see is how such behaviour might involve the zero point field, on an inverse fourth power law. Curiously enough, I have heard rumour of odd behaviour in ferrites at their saturation point. The paradox - to me - is that any o-u motor or similar solid state device would need to be inherently wasteful. If you rid it of its inefficiency, you get a linear machine again (!) Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 07:39:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA02013 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 07:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA01877 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601121503.HAA01877@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by power.gpu.com id (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:03:04 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:03:04 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-0); Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:03:04 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: FEC@V2.RL.AC.UK To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: gravity Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 09:22:56 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> FEC@V2.RL.AC.UK MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 We have all talked about ZPE for some time. The thought that I have is energy must come from someplace. If ZPE is extracted from matter the matter must change. It must be matter with less ZPE than it should have. Such matter would be quite strange. I don't think it exists. In order to extract energy there must be a change in the system. The extraction of nuclear power changes the mass of the nucleus. This change is permanent. In order to understand what changes after ZPE is extracted we must understand gravity. As soon as gravity is mentioned everyone thinks of Einstein and some super-high-energy-theory, way beyond the comprehension of ordinary man. Theories like this are needed if you want to unify all of the forces. At some-super-high-energy level electromagnetism will unify with gravity. It seems that everyone has been razzel dazzled by these theories of everything. The word "Gravity" makes top scientists cringe. The basics of gravity are easy to understand. Gravity imparts force and force generates gravity. No unification with electromagnetism is implied. The equations are simple. Gravity = G/(ccr) (force) The average electrical engineer, like me. Can derive the force/gravity relationship. It is exactly like the electromagnetic relationship except the constants are different. I've done it on my "Book On A Disk." After that mental hurtle is surmounted, it is easy to see that ZP fields impart fluctuation forces. These forces induce gravity without giving up any energy. A permanent change does occur after ZPE is extracted, the negative gravitational potential of the universe increases. Gravity contains negative energy. The positive energy that is liberated is equal to the negative energy in the induced gravitational field. Why does everyone have such a problem with this? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 05:14:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA26982 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 04:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA26977 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 04:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA12082 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:54:56 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:57:47 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: gravity Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >After that mental hurtle is surmounted, it is easy to see that ZP fields >impart fluctuation forces. These forces induce gravity without giving up >any energy. A permanent change does occur after ZPE is extracted, the >negative gravitational potential of the universe increases. Gravity >contains negative energy. The positive energy that is liberated is >equal to the negative energy in the induced gravitational field. >Why does everyone have such a problem with this? > Frank Znidarsic This is an intertresting theory. Maybe the lack of excitement about it lies in the lack of clear pointers to experimental directions and practical applications. Perhaps another source of difficulty lies in the distinction between mass and energy, and therefore gravitational potential and energy. Since it is already well known that mass is just a form of the energy, so an appropriately weighted (by cc) sum of the two is conserved, what you suggest does not appear to offer any useful new information. The distinction between mass and negative gravitational potential needs clarification, otherwise there is no new information. It seems to me that a practical over unity device must either (1) violate conservation of the universal weighted sum of mass/energy, or (2) convert local mass to local energy, or (3) convert distant mass to local energy, or (4) transfer energy from a distant place to a locality. To me it appears there is much cause for hope. It appears that (1) happens all the time, but only on a temporary short term basis. The trick is to make it permantent. Method (2) happens all the time in nuclear reactors. Method (4) is the mechanism I have suggested in my Partial Orbital Hypothesis to explain CF. It requires "action at a distance", but there are some strong arguments that this is possible. If action at a distance is feasible, making practical use simply requires setting up a situation which can use entropy to ensure the energy transfer. Only (3) seems totally elusive. I think (1) also has possibilities. Suppose an electron approaches a nucleus in a strong magnetic field which enables a Rydberg style close approach path. At some point the electrostatic field gradient will be enormous. If an electron/positron pair are randomly created by a vacuum fluctuation between the electron and nucleus, the electron/positron pair can be separated. This places the new electron closer to the nucleus, while the positron is pulled toward the orginal electron. The original electron and the positron are free to self annihilate, creating gammas. The newly created electron is left in a low energy state, which results in a method (4) resolution. There are many possibilities. Experimental results indicate *something* is happening to "create" energy. The problem is finding a theory that reduces the degrees of freedom so it is possible to home in on a practical solution. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 08:25:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12199 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12186 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.67] ([204.57.193.67]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA12279 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:05:12 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:07:59 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: ZPF and CF etc Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There is a massive display of Northern Lights above me at present. It is green, so it must be mostly an electron burst. More colors usually show up when the nuclei arrive. I can't help thinking that up there wonderful things are happening which are just beyond our threshold of understanding. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 08:38:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA14019 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13982 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.67] ([204.57.193.67]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA12318 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:20:23 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:23:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: an event! - high impedance Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On 10 Jan 96 at 8:33, John Logajan wrote: >[my original response snipped] >> The odd thing about the CETI demo cell at PowerGen was that its impedance >> varied from a low of 40 ohms or so, to a high of 400 ohms or so. >> >> Assuming the cell geometry didn't vary significantly between runs, nor >> that the average temperature didn't vary greatly, nor that the electrolyte >> varied in concentration, one is left to speculate that the entire variation >> in impedance could only be located in the bead-to-bead contact. >One factor I forgot is the area of the balls actually exposed to the >electrolyte. If they are partially covered with gas bubbles, these >bubbles reduce the effective area. >[snip] >Robin van Spaandonk The conductance (i.e 1/resistance) of a solid or liquid is the sum of the conductances of many paths from source to sink. If you introduce bubbles, you reduce the number of paths, so reduce conductance, thus increase resistance. The same argument applies to thermal conductivity. The surface effect you mention is probably much greater though, due to the fact the bubble concentration is greatest at their source, i.e. the surface, and the fact they cling there by surface tension. What bothers me is a new electrolyte and reconstructed cell should initially be free of the bubbles, thus should revert back to the original resistance. It sounds like something happened to the beads. Maybe it would be possible to compare the resistance of individual cell beads with measurements of control beads. The resistance should be measured by clamping two parallel planes of nickel (to avoid galvanic effects) to the individual beads at a constant tension. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 20:41:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA20445 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA20432 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:32:51 -0800 (PST) From: GeorgeHM@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA18602; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:31:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:31:27 -0500 Message-ID: <960113233125_41079745@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: fznidarsic@gpu.com, FEC@v2.rl.ac.uk, VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: gravity Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank - I agree with the overall conservation concept, but how do we prove that ZPE is soley coupled to gravity? George From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 00:02:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA13281 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13269 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.anu.edu.au (nimbus.anu.edu.au [150.203.126.21]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA10747 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:54:13 +1100 Received: by nimbus.anu.edu.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16176; Sun, 14 Jan 96 18:54:13 EST Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 18:54:13 EST From: daved@nimbus.anu.edu.au (Dave DAVIES) Message-Id: <9601140754.AA16176@nimbus.anu.edu.au> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ZPF and CF etc Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ... > > I was thinking about ZPF. Has the Casimir force been allowed for in the > study of catalysis? Might there not be 'electron walls' at some solid/fluid > interfaces, pulling reactants together? That seems to me to be a pretty > conventionalist idea, but I've not seen it anywhere. (I'll take my Nobel in > used notes, thanks). > ... > > Chris > > Isn't this the Van der Waals force? I thought that Hal Puthoff or someone had published a paper on this. dave From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 01:11:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA18982 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA18973 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA02002; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:00:16 -0500 Date: 14 Jan 96 03:58:49 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: gravity Message-ID: <960114085848_100060.173_JHB66-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, >> Experimental results indicate *something* is happening to "create" energy << Would it not be better to say that *something* is happening to create local *heat* rather than energy, in the context of what we are witnessing? This then removes the accusation that conservation of energy is defied. We are then in the realms of a sub-atomic heat pump. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 07:16:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA08822 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 07:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA08811 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 07:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA27881 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:03:20 GMT Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:03:20 GMT Message-Id: <199601141503.AA27881@felix.dircon.co.uk> Received: from gw4-076.pool.dircon.co.uk(194.73.168.76) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma027871; Sun Jan 14 15:03:13 1996 X-Sender: dominic@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: dominic@dircon.co.uk (Dominic Murphy) Subject: Re: vtx: Better CF videos available Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Frank: > >You say "the tape of the UK show 'It runs on water' is having a huge= impact" >over at General Public Utilities Corp. I am delighted to hear that.= Frankly, >I am also a little surprised, because I was not impressed by the program.= It >wasn't bad, but it did not have much serious scientific content. > >There have been two other videos made about CF by the BBC and CBC: "The >Secret Life of Cold Fusion" and "Too Close to The Sun." I thought they >had more content and more hard facts. They showed a lot more lab equipment, >which I enjoy looking at. Have you got copies of them Frank? Do you think >you need them to make your point? I only have one copy of each one left,= and >I don't have a master for "Too Close. . ." Perhaps I can lend you copies if >you would like. > >- Jed > I am afraid that television programmes made for popular release are not a good vehicle for telling the whole truth (whatever that is). The best I hoped for in =93It runs on Water=94 is to report part of the truth as well= as we could. In doing so we faced certain constraints: =B7 inventors are often secretive and rightly cautious about publicity in= the media =B7 the inventors certainly don=92t yet understand what=92s cooking =B7 the scientists probably don=92t yet understand what=92s cooking =B7 there are differences of opinion in the field which in some cases have reached incandescence=20 =B7 one of our key objectives was to look at the human and social aspects (like: How do scientists get on with inventors?; Is Science becoming overly conservative?; What if OU works?) =B7 if you want to keep the attention of a lay audience whilst introducing a seemingly esoteric and abstract subject, it is advisable to keep it simple and tell a clear story involving real people. I know the programme was not too technical, but there are good reasons for that. We really did struggle to find a clear technical and scientific exposition that would live in our format. I think we were too early on the scene for complete success in that, but I=92m glad it got made. =20 Hopefully we can mature our understanding along with the development of the field and have the grounds to make another one real soon, and I=92ll try to get more kit into it. dominic murphy +44 (0)181 747 0499 ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 08:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA15936 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 07:01:27 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 07:03:51 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: gravity Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman, > >Would it not be better to say that *something* is happening to create local >*heat* rather than energy, in the context of what we are witnessing? This >then removes the accusation that conservation of energy is defied. > >We are then in the realms of a sub-atomic heat pump. > >Norman. I agree that "CF" and "creating local energy" are probably misnomers, and the process may well be a heat pump process. But I think it is way too early in the game to get people to change terminology since there is no strongly confirmed and universally accepted theory or experimental results yet. Maybe the fat ladies' song will tell the tale in this Wagnerian drama unfolding. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:47:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA18191 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 08:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA18162 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 08:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05088 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:39:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199601141639.AA05088@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:39:29 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: Re: gravi Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 11:38:49 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: George Miley agrees with me. That's good enough for me. Let's start developing experiments to test the hypothysis. Frank Znidarsic -> JEROME R SEESE II -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 From: GeorgeHM@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:31:27 -0500 To: p8156@memo.gpuc.com, FEC@v2.rl.ac.uk, VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: gravity Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Frank - I agree with the overall conservation concept, but how do we prove that ZPE is soley coupled to gravity? George From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 10:06:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA26464 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA26456 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA22432; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 12:55:11 -0500 Date: 14 Jan 96 12:49:29 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: It Runs on Water Message-ID: <960114174928_100433.1541_BHG62-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Dominic, Perhaps you would accept that we rather feel that a simple explanation of how these devices had been tested (I'm sure Dennis Cravens would have been happy to oblige) would have been perhaps of more value than any effort to explain the ZPF. What tends to bother some of us is that some pretty straightforward science was ignored, leaving the audience with the notion 'maybe this is real', which TV seems so much to prefer to straight, hard fact. By the way, could I have those magazines back? They were my only copies, and I do need them. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 14:53:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA03223 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA03215 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA25736; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:42:54 -0500 Date: 14 Jan 96 17:41:56 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: It Runs on Water Message-ID: <960114224156_72240.1256_EHB114-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex As usual, I agree with Chris Tinsley. He said to Dominic: "Perhaps you would accept that we rather feel that a simple explanation of how these devices had been tested (I'm sure Dennis Cravens would have been happy to oblige) . . ." Right. Or take that fellow at the firehouse. A shot of his power meter, thermometer and water meter would add a note of hard reality to the discussion. When he said "our instruments are good" viewers might have imagined that he was talking about $50 million dollar spectroscopy units used to distinguish a few parts per million of some isotope. If the viewers realized that he means his thermometer can measure the difference between 85 deg F and 110 deg F they would be inclinded to believe him. People know what a thermometer is. "What tends to bother some of us is that some pretty straightforward science was ignored, leaving the audience with the notion 'maybe this is real', which TV seems so much to prefer to straight, hard fact." Yes, we feel that the basic calorimetric techniques used to demonstrate the effect are straightforward science which many viewers would understand. A flow calorimeter is similar to a kitchen coffee maker or an electric shower heater. You can explain "the water should get this hot with this much energy going into it, but it got 15 degrees hotter instead." People would understand that. Or, if they cannot understand it then what is the point of bringing up esoteric subjects like ZPE? - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 22:59:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA05476 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA05471 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20314 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:47:15 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:49:25 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Re: gravi Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, >George Miley agrees with me. That's good enough for me. Let's start >developing experiments to test the hypothysis. > > Frank Znidarsic > A good idea. What do you propose? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 09:16:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA09998 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA09969 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyql26747; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13195; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:57:56 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 681657080096015FEPRI; 15 Jan 1996 08:57:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Jan 1996 08:57:08 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Talk about getting set straight.... To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/15/96 08:57:14 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Talk about getting set straight.... - Here I was whining and crying to myself about how long it is taking to get my two contacts lined up to make the Patterson beads.... - So, being the anxious puppy I am I talked to the American Electroplaters and Surface Finishers society. - Their technical man gave me the name of Ned M., a retired fellow in Illinois. "The MOST expert expert on plating on plastics." He said. So I called Ned. Talked for 1/2 an hour. Found out that between my expert on the "surface" sensitization realm (a local plating supplier engineer, with some years of experience selling, designing, installing plating systems of various sorts) and my expert on the electroless Ni/Pd layer realm (the owner/operator of a local precious metals plating company) that I HAVE probably the most expert combination I could find in the country. This retired guy, off the top of his head, tells me all the steps and the type of equipment needed to do this work. - As he tells me this, and emphasizes: "This is not easy work. You need experienc e, you need specialty equipment..." I am saying to myself, "Good grief! I have this in my contacts, little did I know HOW MUCH they know, and HOW LITTLE I know." In any case, I can assure everyone out there that obtaining the Patterson beads (until they are produced commercially and in large volume) is NOT EASY.... It's not something done readily by an individual, particularily without any specialty equipment nor experience. This MIGHT explain why we don't have a "run" of people trying to duplicate this work. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 12:23:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA15436 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15430 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyqy29204; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26163; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:11:56 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 483210120096015FEPRI; 15 Jan 1996 12:10:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Jan 1996 12:10:12 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Dr. Conte's work... To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/15/96 12:10:30 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Dr. Conte's work... - Dear Friends: We may have gained yet another allie in the "established" circles of science. Dr. Elio Conte of the Center for Studies of Radioactivity and Radiation Health Physics of the International University of Bari, Italy has been at work on some new theory, and a combined set of "Cold Fusion" type experiments to coordinate with the theory. - With the help of our very proficient moderator, Dr. Conte's theory and details on the experimental work have been posted on: - http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freeng/cofu.wps - and also: - http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html - Please note I am transcribing directly from information sent as text on the Vortex, thus the first "~BILB" may be also "~BILLB" as in the second Internet call set. I would hope those with great Internet fluency can figure this out. - Yours, Mark Hugo From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 12:54:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA09336 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:35:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA09307 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-163.austin.eden.com (net-1-163.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.163]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA12723 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:33:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:33:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601151933.NAA12723@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Dieter, can you provide the density and viscosity of 1 M Li2SO4 at, say 50 or 60 C? Is this something one can calculate from fundamental principles? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 16:16:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA22652 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA22637 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA01631; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 18:54:03 -0500 Date: 15 Jan 96 18:51:20 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Dr Conte's work Message-ID: <960115235119_100433.1541_BHG35-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To:Vortex Mr Beaty, If you have read the funniest book ever written, you will know that "Two l's is for officers." That's what they told Bill The Galactic Hero when he got conscripted into the troopers. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 17:01:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA20400 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20383 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA29704; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:42:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:42:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Dr. Conte's work... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 15 Jan 1996, Mark Hugo, Northern wrote: > With the help of our very proficient moderator, Dr. Conte's theory and > details on the experimental work have been posted on: > - > http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freeng/cofu.wps Oops, it's http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrg/cofu.wps, with an "r" in "freenrg". And "bilb" is correct for this one. I changed it just to be irritating! ;) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 18:43:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA04751 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA04706 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-163.austin.eden.com (net-1-151.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.151]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA24138 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:13:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:13:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601152213.QAA24138@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: attn: Professor Conte X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Professor Conte, Did you ever do any work on something called a gas-proportional scintillation counter? I recall seeing some papers about such a device years ago when I was involved in x-ray fluorescence. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 18:44:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA26042 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA25853 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tbwGs-0005TQC; Mon, 15 Jan 96 15:16 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:16:54 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601151933.NAA12723@natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Jan 15, 96 01:33:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Hey Dieter, can you provide the density and viscosity of 1 M Li2SO4 at, say > 50 or 60 C? Is this something one can calculate from fundamental principles? I noticed that when I added my Li2SO4 to 200 ml to make 1 M Li2SO4, the volume increased to approx 210 ml @ 25C. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 20:09:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA07778 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA07765 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-141.austin.eden.com (net-1-141.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.141]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA14129 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:01:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:01:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601160401.WAA14129@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John said: >I noticed that when I added my Li2SO4 to 200 ml to make 1 M Li2SO4, the >volume increased to approx 210 ml @ 25C. Did you use anhydrous Li2SO4? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 21:14:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA17822 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA17814 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tc3ag-0005MnC; Mon, 15 Jan 96 23:05 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:05:50 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601160401.WAA14129@natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Jan 15, 96 10:01:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott asks: > >I noticed that when I added my Li2SO4 to 200 ml to make 1 M Li2SO4, the > >volume increased to approx 210 ml @ 25C. > > Did you use anhydrous Li2SO4? It was Li2SO4.H2O, formula weight 127.95. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 22:07:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA27897 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA27858 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.anu.edu.au (nimbus.anu.edu.au [150.203.126.21]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA24775 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:56:45 +1100 Received: by nimbus.anu.edu.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01314; Tue, 16 Jan 96 16:56:45 EST Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 16:56:45 EST From: daved@nimbus.anu.edu.au (Dave DAVIES) Message-Id: <9601160556.AA01314@nimbus.anu.edu.au> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potapov anecdote Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A while back I mentioned the Potapov device to a Russian physicist acquaintance. He tells me that his wife remembers a manuscript about the device circulating among students around 20 years ago when they were students. dave From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 00:54:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA20305 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA20294 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA10664; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:45:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:45:29 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... In-Reply-To: <199601151933.NAA12723@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Hey Dieter, can you provide the density and viscosity of 1 M Li2SO4 at, say > 50 or 60 C? Is this something one can calculate from fundamental principles? I found the density in Landolt & Boernstein: at 40C, it's 1.08 60C, 1.07. Interpolate! These figures are for a 10% solution, pretty close to 1M (it's about 11%). I was not able to find the viscosity, let alone at these temps. One could do a CAS search etc. As for Ni plating, I am forwarding a couple of postings to sci.chem.electrochem to you, Scott. One is by a bloke who knows a lot about the subject and says that an electroless Ni plate is more compact, sort of glassy - sounds good, fewer pores (if that is what you want); another poster then pointed out that such plates also contain some amount of phosphorus, possibly not such a good thing. On the subject of voltage drops along the CETI-type cell: I'd be less concerned with the iR drop itself, since the heating due to that is small compared with the heat claimed to be generated by the exotic effect. As long as your power supply can supply enough, iR should not worry you, as such. What would worry me is the uneven overpotential along the cell, and thus the gradient in the "electrochemical pressure" pushing hydrogen into the Ni layer, assuming that this plays a role. This could be evened out by proper cell design, but then you'd deviate from the CETI design and maybe that is part of their secret. People do mention "nonequilibrium" a lot as a requirement for CNF. Who knows. The safest thing would still be to get your hands on CETI's beads and, even better, one of their working cells, just to verify their claims. I saw the tape of the British TV program. It's all been said here so I won't repeat it, except that I was frustrated seeing the electrolyte going into the top of the bed-o'-beads and coming out at the bottom, liberally mixed with gas - in fact, there was more gas than liquid. Anyone in their right minds would surely reverse the flow direction. The cell was never full of electrolyte, I reckon, it was a trickle bed. I'm not saying that this proves anything, they did have reasonable current-voltage figures; but it seemed pretty inept. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 05:32:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA10694 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA10680 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA19380; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:20:52 -0500 Date: 16 Jan 96 08:17:26 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top Message-ID: <960116131726_72240.1256_EHB103-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Dieter Britz writes: "I saw the tape of the British TV program. It's all been said here so I won't repeat it, except that I was frustrated seeing the electrolyte going into the top of the bed-o'-beads and coming out at the bottom, liberally mixed with gas - in fact, there was more gas than liquid. Anyone in their right minds would surely reverse the flow direction. The cell was never full of electrolyte, I reckon, it was a trickle bed. I'm not saying that this proves anything, they did have reasonable current-voltage figures; but it seemed pretty inept." Which experiment are you referring to here? CETI's? I don't have the video handy, I am not sure what you are talking about. In the CETI patent and all CETI cells the flow is from the bottom to the top. This is shown on the back of their brochure, and elsewhere. Please not patent 5,318,675, 3 Detailed Description: "The circulation system includes a pump 18 which draws a liquid electrolyte 59 in the direction of the arrow into the inlet 54" . . . which is to say, up. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 06:21:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA13734 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA13721 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA11516 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:51:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199601161351.AA11516@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:51:02 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: zpe-test Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 08:50:19 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:55:09 -0500 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem To: FRANK ZNIDARSIC with ESKIMO.OCM me server): Connection timed out during user open with ESKIMO.OCM ----- Recipients of this delivery ----- Received: from memo.gpuc.com by power.gpu.com with SMTP id AA14427 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:55:09 -0500 Received: from GPU1 by memo.gpuc.com (IBM MVS SMTP V3R1) with BSMTP id 8093; Mon, 15 Jan 96 17:54:28 EST From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC To: @gpu.com:VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.OCM Subject: test.for.ZPE Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 17:54:28 EST Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:50:01 -0500 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Cc: p8156@memo.gpuc.com Subject: test.for.ZPE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.28819.mail04.mail.aol.com.821746200" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.28819.mail04.mail.aol.com.821746200 Content-ID: <0_28819_821746200@mail04.mail.aol.com.15455> TESTS FOR ZPE Hypotheses: The ZP state is connected with gravity. The positive energy liberated in cold fusion experiments is compensated with an induced gravitational potential. ................................................................ Tests by the exclusion of other processes may provide a hint. The exclusion process cannot tell us where the energy is coming from. It only tells us what is not happening. The amount of energy. High energy fuels contain energy in the range of 20 MJ/kg (12,000 Btu's/LB). Cold fusion experiments have liberated total energies in excess of 80 MJ/kg. The energy is not chemical. The absence of sufficient nuclear products. Gammas, X-rays, and helium. There is no known process to force the nucleons together. The bulk of the energy is probably not nuclear. ............................................................. Tests to detect ZPE process are difficult. The extraction of ZPE produces no ash. The negative gravitational potential of the universe is increased and a bit of angular momentum is borrowed. No known test can detect these things. .......................................................... The process of fusion results in a large increase in entropy. Nuclear fusion is not reversible. The ZP process should be reversible. Hint...The ZPE process is sensitive to pressure and temperature. This sensitivity implies reversibility. Prof of the ZPE process would be a cooling effect. The reverse of the heating effect. No know nuclear process can produce cooling. What to look for. The minimum energy of a particle in a box = hh/(2mLL) Where L is the length of the box. The electron density of a metal is about 4 x 10 exp 7 -e/cm That yields a minimum energy (Fermi Level) of about 7 ev. Given: Mean kinetic energy = 3/2 Kt The Fermi temperature of a metal is about 80,000 deg K There is not much hope to reverse the process. The Fermi temperature is to hot. The plasma temperature will never exceed the Fermi Temperature. Superconductors and superfluids are macroscopic ZP systems. Their culminated wave functions are macroscopic in size. L can be meters in length. The mimimum energy (Fermi level) corresponding with such large wave functions is very low. Indeed there is an effect called the mechno-caloric effect in which superfluid helium passing through narrow channels spontaneously cools. See The Quest for Absolute Zero Page 229. I believe that this is the reverse of the ZPE process and the proof of the principle. Frank Znidarsic bmp picture attached if you can extract it. --PART.BOUNDARY.0.28819.mail04.mail.aol.com.821746200 Content-ID: <0_28819_821746200@mail04.mail.aol.com.15456> Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="TEXT.BMP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 CgUBAQAAAAB/AmMBgALgAQAAAP///+gkeXCea7de6CSfHjpveXD6aw4Plx88bJ8eAAAMAOgk Om95cLYUPwSmAwABUAAAAAAAAQDQawAApwMAfwAA1GsEFb8ROm/iazsJAACmAzpvAQC/Ef1r +gu/EgAAOm8BABYIAQABAJ8ecgfkAATrAOQABOsAHgEABBUFwgBQAFQUwgA8woAAFAQAAc4A BOsAIQEABBUEwgBQAFQQwgAiAIAAFATQAATrACA5OMHuFIk5EVAAUiTB5EQincHRU5QOcEU5 EcwABOsAGMJFFACJRSnCAAIlFKQiopFkQASIwkUpzAAE6wAGwn0EAFF8qsIAAUXB8qg8oJFH wcAEiCl8qswABOsAAcJBBABRQKrCAAFFAqggoJFEAASIKUCqzAAE6wAhwkUUACHCRMMAhREQ IKKTREAEiBHCRMwABOsAHjk4weYAIThEwwCEweEQIJzBzUOABnAROETMAATrAOQABOsA5AAE 6wDkAATrAOQABOsA5AAE6wDkAD+A6gDkAMHEYOoA4wABBBjqAB4BAATfAAHCBOoAIQEABABX wdQFAV8BSgLCAAKA0gACHwTqACA5OMHuAFQUBQFQAEoCwwCA0gAEJMHC6gAYwkUUAFQUweUB UEXB6gc4HIvBwNIABEAi6gAGwn0EAAeVEAAfKUACRCJSgNIACIAR6gABwkEEAAQVwfAAEBFA AkQ+IoDSAAkAEeoAIcJFFAAEFcIAEBFAAkQgIoDSABEACeoAHjk4weYABBUQABApQAJEIlKA 0gARAAnqAMUABBTB4AAfRWADOByKwcjSABEAEeoA4wAJABHqAOMACQAh6gDjAAjBwCLqAOMA CDBC6gDjAAYPhOoA4wABAATqAOMAAQAY6gDjAAfBwHDqAOMAGD+PgOkA4gABweDCAGDpAOIA BsMAGOkA4gAIwwAE6QDiABDDAAPpAOIAYMQAgOgA4gCAxABA6ADhAAEAD8H/weAAMOgA4QAC ADAAGAAI6ADhAAQAwcAAB4AI6ADhAAQDwwBABugA4QAYBMMAIAHoAOEAIATDABgB6ADhACAY wwAGAIDnAOEAQCDDAAEAgOcA4QDCQMQAgEDnAOEAwoDEAEAg5wDhAIHFACAQ5wDgAMIBxQAg EOcA4AABAsUAwhDnAOAAwgLFABAI5wDgAAIExQDCCOcA4ADCBMUAwgjnAOAABAjFAMIE5wDg AAQIxQDCBOcA4AAEEMUAAgTnAOAACBDFAAIE5wDgAAgQxQACBOcA4AAIEMUAAgTnAOAACCDF AAIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAIIMUAAgTn AOAACCDFAAIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAI IMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDgAAggxQAC BOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDg AAggxQACBOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDDAD+AAgTnAOAACCAfwgDBxGACBOcA4AAIIGDBwAGA GAIE5wDgAAghkTAHEQ4CBOcA4AAIIgAfwfwAAYIE5wDgAAgsxUR+BOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAOAA CDHFERIE5wDgAAggxQACBOcA4AAIJMREweRGBOcA4AAIIMMAAcH4AgTnANEAIM4ACDHEEcH9 EgTEAAGTPMH2wcx5weDcANEAcM4ACCDDAAPB/8H+B8P/weABu0bBx3bBzYDcANEAcM4ACCTD REfB/8H+B8L/gDABux7BxmbBzYDcANEAwfjOAAggwwADwf/B/gfC/4AQAas2wcZmwf2A3ADR AMH4zgAIMcMRE8H/wf4Hwv+AMADB7mbBxmbBwYDcANAAAcH8zgAIIMMAA8H/wf4Hw//B4ADB 7mbBxmbBzYDcANAAAcH8zgAIJMNERcH+RgTFAMHGPsHGZnmA3ADQAAPB/s4ACCDEAMH8AgTn ANAAA8H+zgAIMcQRMRIE5wDRACDOAAggxQACBOcA0QAgygCAwwAIJMVERgTnANEAIMoAgMMA CCDFAAIE5wDRACDKAIDDAAgxxRESBOcA0QAgygCAwwAIIMUAAgTnANEAIMoAgMMACCTFREYE 5wDRACDKAIDDAAggxQACBOcA0QAgygCAwwAIMcUREgTnANEAIMoAgMMACCDFAAIE5wDRACDK AIDDAAgkxURGBOcA0QAgygCAwwAIIMUAAgTnANEAIMoAgMMACDHFERIE5wDRACDKAIDDAAgg xQACBOcA0QAgygCAwwAIJMVERgTnANwAgMMACCDFAAIE5wDcAIDDAAgxxRESBOcA3ACAwwAI IMUAAgTnANwAgMMACCTFREYE5wDcAIDDAAggxQACBOcA3ACAwwAIMcUREgTnANwAgMMACCDF AAIE5wDcAIDDAAgkxURGBOcA3ACAwwAIIMUAAgTnANwAgMMACDHFERIE5wDcAIDDAAggxQAC BOcA3ACAwwAIJMVERgTnANwAgMMACCDFAAIE5wDcAIDDAAgxxRESBOcA3ACAwwAIIMUAAgTn AM0AAggABB8gyQCAwwAIP8Xdwf4E5wDNAAIIAAQQIMkAgMMACD/FmcH+BOcAzQACCMHhwc4Q I5ETgMYAgMMACD/FmcH+BOcAzQACCRIkECRRFEDKAAg/xZnB/gTnAM0AA8H5ECQeJEqkywAI P8Xdwf4E5wDNAAIJwfHB5BAkSqOAygAIP8WZwf4E5wDNAAIJAiQQJEqgQMoACD/FmcH+BOcA zQACCRJkECTCREDKAAg/xZnB/gTnAM0AAgjB4aYQI4RDgMoACD/F3cH+BOcA4AAIP8WZwf4E 5wDgAAg/xZnB/ATnAOAACD/FmcH8BOcA4AAIP8XdwfgE5wDgAAg/xZnB8ATnAOAACD/FmcHA BMsABMQAgNYA4AAIP8WZgATLAATEAIDWAM0AA8HgwwDB4AIExQAfIAgQwgAIP8Xdg8YAAsHD iqciIMHFhxYsOI7WAM0AAsMAARACBMUAECAAEMIACD/FmQ/GAAMkTMHIoiEmSJkyRJHWAM0A AgU4swIIweI0xQAQJEjB0MIACD/FmT/GAAIgSIiVQQRAkSJEkNYAzQACBkTBzIIBEkzFABAk STDCAAg/xZnH/4IjwciIlUEER5EifI7WAM0AA8HERIiCARJExQAeJEkQwgAIP8XdP8YAAiRI iJVBBEiRIkCB1gDNAAIERIiCARJExQAQJEkQwgAIP8WZD8YAAiTByMKIgSRJkSJEkdYAzQAC BESIggkSRMUAECRJEMIACD/FmYPGAAIjSIcIgMHERpEiOI7WAM0AAgREiIEREkzFABAkwckw wgAIP8WZgATnAM0AAgQ4iIDB4MHiNMUAECNIwdDCAAg/xd3BwATnAOAACD/FmcHABOcA4AAI P8WZweAE5wDgAAg/xZnB8ATnAOAACD/F3cH4BOcA4AAIP8WZwfgE5wDgAAg/xZnB/ATnAOAA CD/FmcH8BOcAzQACABBAEH4ABAAEwwAfIMQACD/F3cH+BOcAzQACABBAEEEABMUAECDEAAg/ xZnB/gTnAM0ABzgQRzhBHDSIwcSwwdAAECOREMIACD/FmcH+BOcAzQACRBBIkEEiTIkkwckw ABAkURDCAAg/xZnB/gTnAM0AAkQfwciQfiJEiQSJEAAeJEqgwgAIP8Xdwf4E5wDNAAJEEEiQ RD5EiQSJEAAQJEqgwgAIP8WZwf4E5wDNAAJEEEiQQiBEiQSJEAAQJEqgwgAIP8WZwf4E5wDN AAJEEEiQQiJMmSSJMAAQJERAwgAIP8WZwf4E5wDNAAM4EEcYQRw0aMHEiMHQABAjhEDCAAg/ xd3B/gTnANgAEMcACD/FmcH+BOcA1wABweDHAAg/xZnB/gTnAOAACD/FmcH+BOcA4AAIP8Xd wf4E5wDgAAg/xZnB/gTnAOAACD/FmcH+BOcA4AAIIMUAAgTnAM0AA8HwBNAACCTFREYE5wDN AAIABNAACCDFAAIE5wDNAMICwc6nFkTNAAggxQACBOcAzQACAyTByJlEzQAIIMUAAgTnAM0A A8HyJIiRKM0ACCTFREYE5wDNAMICJIiRKM0ACCDFAAIE5wDNAMICJIiRKM0ACCDFAAIE5wDN AMICJIiZEM0ACCDFAAIE5wDNAAPB8iaHFhDNAAgkxURGBOcA0QDCEM0ACCDFAAIE5wDRABAg zQAIIMUAAgTnAOAACCDFAAIE5wDcAEDDAAgkxURGBOcA3ABAwwAIIMUAAgTnANwAQMMACCDF AAIE5wDcAEDDAAggxQACBOcA3ABAwwAIJMVERgTnANwAQMMACCDEAHwCBMcAA98A3ABAwwAI IMQAwf4CBMcAA98A3ABAwwAIIMQAwf4CBMUAPHjB8zzB8N0A3ABAwwAIJMNERcH/wf4Hw//B 8ABmwc2bZsHA3QDcAEDDAAggwwABwf/B/gfB/8IAGABgwc2bZsHA3QDRAIDKAEDDAAggwwAB wf/B/gfB/8IACABgwc2bfsHA3QDRAIDKAEDDAAggwwABwf/B/gfB/8IAGABgwc2bYMHA3QDR AIDKAEDDAAgkw0RFwf/B/gfD/8HwAGbBzZtmwcDdANEAgMoAQMMACCDDAAHB/wIExQA8eMHz PMHA3QDRAIDKAEDDAAggxAB/AgTnANEAgMoAQMMACCDEAD4CBOcA0QCAygBAwwAIJMVERgTn ANEAgMoAQMMACCDFAAIE5wDRAIDKAEDDAAggxQACBOcA0QCAygBAwwAIIMUAAgTnANEAgMoA QMMACCTFREYE5wDRAIDKAEDDAAggxQACBOcA0QCAygBAwwAIIMUAAgTnANEAgMoAQMMACCDF AAIE5wDRAIDKAEDDAAgkxURGBOcA0QCAygBAwwAIIMUAAgTnANEAgMoAQMMACCDFAAIE5wDR AIDKAEDDAAggxQACBOcA0QCAygBAwwAIJMVERgTnANEAgMkAB8H8wwAIIMUAAgTnANEAgMkA B8H8wwAIIMUAAgTnANEAgMkAA8H4wwAIIMUAAgTnANEAgMkAA8H4wwAIJMVERgTnANEAgMkA AcHwwwAIIMUAAgTnANsAAcHwwwAIEMUAAgTnANwAweDDAAgQxQACBOcA3ADB4MMACBTGRATn ANwAQMMABBDFAMIE5wDgAAQIxQDCCOcA4AAECMUAwgjnAOAAwgTFRFAQ5wDgAAIExQDCEOcA 4ADCAsUAIBDnAOAAAQLFACAQ5wDgAMIBxURAIOcA4QDCgMQAQCDnAOEAgEDDAAGAQOcA4QBA IMMAAgBA5wDhAEAUw0RGAIDnAOEAIAjDAAwB6ADhACAGwwAwAugA4QAYAYDCAMHAAugA4QAE AGRERwAE6ADhAAQAHAAMAAjoAOEAAwAEABAAEOgA4gCAAgAgAGDoAOIAQAFEYACA6ADiADAB ACAAgOgA4gAIAQAgA+kA4gAGAIBADOkA4gABgMHEQDDpAOMAwoDCQOkA4wDCgMJA6QDjAMKA wkDpAOMAgMHEwkDpAOMAwoDCQOkA4wDCgMJA6QDjAMKAwkDpAOMAgMHEwkDpAOMAwoDCQOkA 4wDCgMJA6QDjAMKAwkDpAOMAgMHEwkDpAOMAwoDCQOkA4wDCgMJA6QDjAMKAwkDpAOMAwcFE YIDpAOMAQQAggOkA4wB+AB/qAP8A0QDkAERA6gD/ANEA/wDRAO4AAzAAwwMAAzDZAOQAREDI AAMwAMMDAAMw2QDmADDHAAPDAMIDAAPaAOYAwfDHAAMxszMbA2HB48IzZtcA5QADwfDHAAMz czM3A7PDM7vXAOQAREfH/8H4A8QzA8Uz1wDlAAPB8McAA8QzAzPB88Mz1wDmAMHwxwADxDMD MwPDM9cA5gAwxwADM8JzNwPDM3Mz1wDkAERAyAADMbGzGwMxweMxszPXAPAAMN8A8AAw3wDw ADDfAOQAREDqAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA /wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA4AADwfvEAMIGAMHw5gDgAMID xADCHgGY5gDgAAPFAMIGABjmAOAAwgMfMzzB8MIGABjmAOAAA8HzwjM5mMIGAHDmAOAAwgPC MzHB+MIGPBjmAOAAwgPCMzGAwgYAGOYA4ADCA8IzMYDCBgAY5gDgAMIDwjMxmMIGAZjmAOAA wgPCHzDB8MIGAMHw5gDiAAPtAOIAM+0A4gAe7QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ ANEA/wDRAP8A0QD/ANEA/wDRAP8A0QDSAB/B/zzDAAHBxx+AH8MAwfDGAAHB8QABweDCAAOA AMHjgADB/8H4HjzYANIAGMHjHMMAAcHHB4A8wwBwxgAHD8IAweDCAAOAAMHjgADCODduwgAB 1QDSABDB4RzDAAHBxwfBwFzDAHDGAA4HwgDB4MIAA4AAweOAADgYd8HuwgAB1QDTAMHgHMMA AcHHBcHAXMMAcMYAHAPCAMHgxQDB44AAOIhwweDCAAPVANMAweAcwwABwccFwcBcwwBwxgAc AcIAweDFAMHjgAA4iHDB4MIAB9UA0wDB4BzB4DzCAIIEweCcB4DB+HOBwfB5wcB4ADwBB8HA weB4PMHngcHwQcIAOYHB/8H4eA+PwcDUANMAweAdwfDB5sIAggTB4JwcwcGcd8HDHDvB4cHO ADgADHDB4cHOHcHjgzhBwgA5gHDB4cHMGcHH1QDTAMHgHnDBxsIAggTB4RwYwcMcecHHHDzB 4YYAOAAccMHhhh7B44Y4QcIAP4BwweGMMcHH1QDTAMHgHHHBx8MABHEcOMHnAHHBxxw4weOH ADgAHHDB44ccA47EADmAcMHjjnAH1QDTAMHgHHHB/8MABHIcP8HnAHHBwDw4weOHADjCAMHw weOHHAOOxAA5gHDB48H+cAfVANMAweAcccHAwwAEOhw4BwBxwcDB3DjB44d/PAADcMHjhxwD jsQAOIBwweOAcAfVANMAweAcccHAwwAEOhw4BwBxwcOcOMHjh38cAA5wweOHHAOOxAA4hHDB 44BwB9UA0wDB4BxxweHDAAQ8HDwngHHBxxw4weOHABwAHHDB44ccA4/EADgEcMHjwcJ4B9UA 0wDB4BxwweLDAATDHEPBzHHBxzw4weGGAA4BHMHwweGGHAOHmMMAOAxwweHBxDzBxyDUANMA weAccMH+wwAEGBwfwcPB+HHBx8HeOMHhwc4ABwYfeMHhwc4cA4fB8MMAOBhwweHB/D+HwcDU ANIAA8H4PsH4eMMAHwh/DwDB8MH7weOMfcHweAABwfgOMcHweD4HwcHB4MMAwf/B+MH5wvAP A4DUAP8A0QA= --PART.BOUNDARY.0.28819.mail04.mail.aol.com.821746200-- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 07:01:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA21343 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 06:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA21263 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 06:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from cappa.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA06843; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:44:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:44:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9601161444.AA06843@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: A New Experiment of Cold Fusion X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex-l Before of all,many thanks to the moderator and to M.Hugo to have announced the new=20 experiment and the theory that supports it. Step by step the file contains all the theore- tical explanations of the experiment and its arrangement.However,I retain that the file requires a particular care in reading.So,I attempt to report some suggestions to make easier the reading: - the theoretical support of the experiment is the biquaternion quantum mechanics that is a new quantum theory that generalizes the usual quantum mechanics ,and evidences that some=20 processes,i.e. the cold fusion,are possible while should be excluded in the usual quantum theory. -the biquaternion quantum mechanics uses linear=20 homogeneous biquaternion transformations that=20 have profound differences respect to the usual ones :i.e.in LHBT we have UU*#1. The natural=20 consequence of such non unitary LHBT is that the conventional physical laws of the usual quantum mechanics may be generalized;=20 - fixed this point, let us ask what it does mean that the usual quantum mechanics is generalized by=20 biquaternion quantum mechanics. The first result is that applying LHBT to the quantum of action, it changes, the canonical action changes, and, as first consequence, a new generalization of Schr=F6dinger equation is obtained and a new "proper" form of=20 Hamiltonian; - this is the basic point of the works, inspecting this Hamiltonian, one evidences a new form of interaction.=20 This interaction recovers Fermi legaci with wave packets in conditions of deep mutual immersion and overlapping,=20 and experiencing short range, internal, non local integral interactions. These interactions are of contact type, and they are out- side the representation capabilities of the usual quantum mechanics; - we arrive so to the cold fusion: resolving the CGSE (Con- te's generalization of Schr=F6dinger equation) we have the=20 presence of these interactions of contact type, and the possibility for a system of two particles to form bound=20 states at distances shorter than 10^ -13 cm (the cold fusion) whit emission of about 70 kev for our studies=20 system. It is important: one discovers that at this stage=20 the dominant interaction is not of potential type, but occurs under conditions of mutual penetration and overlap-=20 ping for wave packets; - the experiment. The reason to request your attention on this experiment that, if confirmed, should have historical im- portance, is that we have just positive indications to this regard at experimental level. The experiment is explained in=20 the file. An high frequency e.m. field should succeed in main- taining a cold plasma, that is a considerable number of po- sitive charged particles mixed and colliding with an equal number of negative charged particles for a time very large=20 respect to the required time for the two particles to form the usual bound state. This time is usually about 10^ -8 sec. and thus an high frequency e.m. field is required with fre- quency of the order of 10^ 10 sec^ -1. In itself the expe- riment is not complicate, but it requires a particular attention=20 in the arrangement of the resonant cavity as well as for the=20 choiche of the source of the microwaves. I think that a de- bate on these points is of particular relevance. I am at di- sposal for any explanation regarding the file. Sincerely. Elio Conte =20 --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 07:25:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA25102 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA25039 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzytw10522; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26942; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:07:28 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 755606070096016FEPRI; 16 Jan 1996 07:06:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Jan 1996 07:06:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/16/96 07:06:56 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/16/96 05:32 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top I second what Jed said. The CETI experiment is with a positive, upward, closed flow. At the levels of electrolysis used, the amount of H2 O2 bubbles are such as to virtually dissolve in the electrolyte by Henry's law! (Almost, not quite.) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 07:28:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA25612 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA25603 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzytw10961; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24663; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:11:29 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 443010070096016FEPRI; 16 Jan 1996 07:10:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Jan 1996 07:10:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/16/96 07:10:29 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/16/96 00:54 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... Yep, once again we have proof that you can't believe everything you see. Particularily if it is edited by a non-technical person and they put it into a squence, wrongly, but with an otherwise correct technical description. What I suspect may have been filmed here was something like a flushing step, before operation. This description DOES NOT FIT any parameter of normal operation that I am aware of for the CETI cell. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 08:14:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA03422 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA03328 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA16312; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:58:15 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:58:15 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 16 Jan 1996, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 01/16/96 05:32 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top > I second what Jed said. The CETI experiment is with a positive, upward, closed > flow. At the levels of electrolysis used, the amount of H2 O2 bubbles are > such as to virtually dissolve in the electrolyte by Henry's law! (Almost, > not quite.) OK, OK, I give in! Actually, I'll have another vidie at that tape, and make sure whose experiment it is, and which way the flow goes. If you lot are right, I am of course relieved - I don't WANT them to be incompetent. Both my postdoc and I saw it, though, and wondered. I'll report back, proberly tomorrer. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 10:34:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA24808 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA24708 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-181.austin.eden.com (net-1-181.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.181]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA28458 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:54:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:54:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601161754.LAA28458@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: bad news X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim Reding called Puthoff today and officially cancelled the planned visit of Dennis Cravens to our lab. Apparently they already have four verification programs in operation and feel that it is not in their interest to bring the cell here for us to test. In preparation for the visit I have (with valuable design help from Martin Sevior) nearly finished a new computer-based calorimeter system ($$$) that will provide two simultaneous yet independant measurements of the heat evolved by the cell (flow calorimetry and Newton's Law of Cooling). This system is designed for a heat range of 0-10 watts, has an experiment chamber that is 14" x 14" x 10", and should achieve a precision of +/-0.05 watts. At this point, I plan to complete the system and use it in our own research. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 14:17:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA19832 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA19621 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:26:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:01:27 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <14763@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Non-linear mediums. X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 54 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The thought has occured to me that we need the ZPF equivalent to a rectifier diode. If all that we had was equipment that could be powered from a dc supply, we would not be able to utilize the energy in an ac signal. Physicists could state and show that energy was there, but we would not be able to use it. A simple non-linear device, such as a diode allows for the conversion of some of the ac energy to dc, allowing easy use to be made of it. The simple diode has a very useful feature: It does not require any special biasing conditions, as the transition from a non-conducting to a conducting state occurs at close to 0V. When looking for an equivalent to 'rectify' the ZPF it is not enough to find a suitable non-linear medium. The non-linearity must also be assymetrical. Symetrical non-linearity is of no use. For example, I can take two silicon diodes and place them in an inverse parallel arrangement. The pair will be non-linear but symetrical. The applied ac signal will be distorted but no dc component will appear. Many of us have experimented with various types of coils wound on ferrite cores. Ferrite is a non-linear ferro-magnetic substance, as its incremental permeability decreases sharply at a certain value of B. (usually around 0.3 Tesla or 3000 Gauss.) If the inductor is driven hard enough then energy is lost when the coil starts to get saturated. The system is non-linear but symmetrical. (All B-H curves I have seen are symmetrical) If the ferrite core is pre-biased by the addition of a permanent magnet at some point in the magnetic circuit, then the non-linearity becomes asymetrical because it will saturate easier one way than the other. This concept is utilized in a Flux-gate magnetometer compass for example. Many of the reported O-U machines seem to utilize coils wound on magnetically biased cores. I think that more is needed however. There also needs to be some way of rectifying the E field. Is there an equivalent to magnetic saturation in dielectrics? In other words, does the incremental permitivity of a dielectric suffer an equivalent limiting condition? And under what conditions does this occur? I know that dielectrics suffer from various non-linear effects such as dielectric absorbtion, but this doesn't seem to help. I wonder about the effect of a device which incorporated materials with non-linear permeability and permetivity, both biased so that the non-linearity was assymetrical. The coil wound around the outside of a home-made capacitor, wound on a stainless steel former (In the Hendershot generator) comes to mind. Is Mark Hendershot still receiving this list, or was it the F-E one? Hope that this might stimulate some discussion. Any comments from Mr Tinsley, now out in the snow clad hills of New Hampshire? -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 15:05:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA11026 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA11009 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyva27723; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22943; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:38:33 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 862437140096016FEPRI; 16 Jan 1996 14:37:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Jan 1996 14:37:14 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Non-linear mediums. To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/16/96 14:37:23 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/16/96 14:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Non-linear mediums. .69 volts forward bias for Silicon, .67 for Germanium, but who's counting? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 15:15:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA13162 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13126 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA22755 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:49:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id RAA06261; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:49:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:49:40 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601162249.RAA06261@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <14763@oroboros.demon.co.uk> (CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk) Subject: Re: vtx: Non-linear mediums. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've done a lot of thinking about this, and I think that it is possible to propose a "simple" non-linear system which would extract vacuum energy. Unfortunately it would be a laboratory curiosity--the energy would be extracted at 77 degrees Kelvin. Create many thin layers of high-temperature superconductor sandwiched between a thin and compressable, but non-conducting material. When the HTSC becomes superconducting, the Casmir Effect will cause the HTSC layers to attract each other, and the material in between will be compressed. Fix the bottom layer in place, and connect the top layer to a flywheel via a connecting rod. Put the superconducter part of the assembly inside a solenoid and apply AC. The sandwich will expand and contract, and if everything is just right, spin the flywheel. (Or it would be possible to use piezoelectric crystals to extract the energy.) Now is it possible to extact more energy from the rotating shaft than is required to change the superconducter state? Theory says yes, but the proof is in the pudding. The solenoid can be part of an LC oscillator, and at liquid nitrogen temperatures, the resistive loss in an aluminum solenoid should be low, so it might be possible to build a completely OU machine this way, but I don't think it would be practical. In fact, I suspect you would end up quickly ripping the "piston" apart. A more robust design would use semiconductors interspersed with metal layers in a diode stack. Now you need compressable junctions in the semiconductor layers. (And you apply AC direct to the stack.) Since the junction layers can be made arbitrarily thin--or at least reliably down to a few atoms in thickness--the power that can be extracted will again be limited by the mechanical properties of the material involved. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 15:34:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA17823 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca ([142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA17747 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA03140; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:16:04 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601162316.AA03140@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: vtx: Trying to find out what's going on. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:16:04 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Everyone, as you've no doubt heard Scott and I have had our tests cancelled by CETI for a second time. I've spent the afternoon trying to get hold of Dennis Cravens and Jim Reding. So far I've just got answering machines. This is really too much. I at least deserve a phone call and an explanation. This whole business really really smells. I'll give them till tomorrow before describing the whole sordid story here, spf and some other places. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 16:38:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA29910 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA29839 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-181.austin.eden.com (net-1-230.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.230]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id SAA25266 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:16:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:16:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601170016.SAA25266@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Trying to find out what's going on. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin says; >This whole business really really smells. I'll give them till tomorrow before >describing the whole sordid story here, spf and some other places. Yes it does smell...but of what? It is at least conceivable that they don't really have anything...that Craven's results are somehow bogus... but the data we've received thus far makes it _sound_ more like they DO have a real effect. Their recent behavior is consistent with someone who's very close to signing a big deal with a big company. Such a deal would surely include a provision to prevent CETI from "playing ball" with anyone else. As frustrated as I am, I'm not sure it would be prudent to badmouth CETI. On the other hand, what harm could it do? Hey, maybe when I get the new calorimeter all tuned up and working great, I could drive it out to Craven's place and make measurements there, blindfolded if necessary! :-) Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 16:44:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA00681 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA00624 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:20:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.67] ([204.57.193.67]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA28147 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:22:14 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:23:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Non-linear mediums. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >When looking for an equivalent to 'rectify' the ZPF it is not enough to >find a suitable non-linear medium. The non-linearity must also be >assymetrical. Symetrical non-linearity is of no use. For example, I >can take two silicon diodes and place them in an inverse parallel >arrangement. The pair will be non-linear but symetrical. The applied ac >signal will be distorted but no dc component will appear. >[snip] > >-- >Chris Morriss The nucleus and it's associated fields represents just such a medium as you suggest is necessary. This is the basis of the Partial Orbital Hypothesis. The field is non-linear, and the energy "phase change" from kinetic energy to the mass of a photon provides the lack of symmetry. Though the phase change is reversible, the probability of absorbtion of the generated photon by an extremely low energy electron (i.e. a protoneutron electron) is very small. Additionally, photons radiated away from a solid surface permanently escape. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 20:07:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA20975 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA20807 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA27292 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:33:57 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:35:29 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Texas calling Dieter Britz.... Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] >As for Ni plating, I am forwarding a couple of postings to >sci.chem.electrochem to you, Scott. One is by a bloke who knows a lot >about the subject and says that an electroless Ni plate is more compact, >sort of glassy - sounds good, fewer pores (if that is what you want); >another poster then pointed out that such plates also contain some amount >of phosphorus, possibly not such a good thing. ^^^^^^^^^^ >[snip] >-- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk Voila! Perhaps a clue to the blue glow? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 20:10:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA13699 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA13299 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyup00166; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14374; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:45:31 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 184144110096016FEPRI; 16 Jan 1996 11:44:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Jan 1996 11:44:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: bad news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/16/96 11:44:39 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/16/96 10:34 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: bad news Could be good news/and bad news Scott. Am working diligently with local plating experts to make duplicate of CETI technology. Will keep you informed. Hardening of CETI position is hard to understand----except for strong "rumor" info that someone has produced a $1*10**6 for an initial development license. If this is true, it would allow them to be much more closed mouthed and reticent to work with others. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 20:13:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA12377 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA12232 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA27756; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:37:14 -0500 Date: 16 Jan 96 14:36:06 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! Message-ID: <960116193606_72240.1256_EHB138-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little reports: "Jim Reding called Puthoff today and officially cancelled the planned visit of Dennis Cravens to our lab. Apparently they already have four verification programs in operation and feel that it is not in their interest to bring the cell here for us to test." My comment: #@(!$!!! . . . <> . . . last straw, I'm fed up and furthermore I am sick and tired of it. Well, Scott I hope you charge those people for your computer and $15 per hour for your time. I had planned to rake them over the coals at MIT on Saturday. I have written a presentation in which I bend over backwards to be fair and evenhanded. I shall revise it. I think I will put back the part where I say their strategy appears to be based on the coitus interruptus school of public relations. I have dealt with many companies and many customers in my life. I have never seen anyone take such a golden opportunity and blow it so badly. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 20:18:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA29525 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29156 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA27454 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:27:44 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:29:16 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: zpe-test Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC > >To: @gpu.com:VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.OCM > >Subject: test.for.ZPE > >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 17:54:28 EST > [snip] > ............................................................. > > > Tests to detect ZPE process are difficult. The extraction of > > ZPE produces no ash. The negative gravitational potential of > > the universe is increased and a bit of angular momentum is > > borrowed. No known test can detect these things. > > > .......................................................... > > [snip] Here are a series of statements which are really questions in order to better understand what you are saying: If a sealed container produced energy E via ZPE, it must increase the negative gavitational potential of the universe by M, where E=MCC, so M=CC/E. If we assume the potential is created within the sealed box, we can assume then that the box must weigh more (not less, as with fusion or fision). However, some of the energy, call it e will be radiated away in photons which have a non zero rest mass, call the total m. Now, if we can determine the total amount of energy created (E), and the amount of energy radiated (E), we should be able to determine the weight change of the box (w) and see if it matches: w = M - m = E/CC - e/CC. Assume the experiment weighs about 1E5 g. (100Kg), and that we can accurately weigh a +1g change (+- 10 mg). That's quite a bit of energy, especially if the experiment runs at 1KW net output. E = (.001 Kg)(3E8 m/s)(3E8 m/s) = 9E13 J = 9E13 Ws = 2.5E7 KWh. Running 24 hrs/day that is a mere 1,000,000 days! So, we need a factor of 1000 improvement to detect the effect within a 3 year experimental period. So one question is it possible to increase output to say 10KW in a 100Kg sealed device, and weigh that device accuarately for a weight change change of +10 mg (+- .1 mg), and exclude, eliminate or account for chemical and cosmic ray influences on the weight (mass) of the box? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 00:47:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA15780 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA15737 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA19093; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:54:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:54:53 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, I wrote: > On 16 Jan 1996, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: > > > *** Reply to note of 01/16/96 05:32 > > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > > Subject: vtx: CETI flow from bottom to top > > I second what Jed said. The CETI experiment is with a positive, upward, closed > > flow. At the levels of electrolysis used, the amount of H2 O2 bubbles are > > such as to virtually dissolve in the electrolyte by Henry's law! (Almost, > > not quite.) > > OK, OK, I give in! Actually, I'll have another vidie at that tape, and > make sure whose experiment it is, and which way the flow goes. If you lot > are right, I am of course relieved - I don't WANT them to be incompetent. > Both my postdoc and I saw it, though, and wondered. I'll report back, > proberly tomorrer. ... and here I am, having seen the tape again last night. The program was called "It Runs on Water". First of all, the man in charge of the cell was Patterson himself, in his ancient lab in Florida. You see some real museum pieces in there, and a rack of chemicals that must be about 50 years old. Nothing wrong with that, of course, I just mention it. The voice says that the electrolyte is 1% Li2SO4 (didn't forget the 2 this time). I wouldn't be surprised if the voice didn't know the difference from 1M. Anyway, the solution definitely flows in at the top, out at the bottom, fighting gas bubbles to get past - there is a shot that follows the bottom tube along, and you can see it dripping into the next container. In the cell itself, there are gas bubbles generated on the beads (they go up). There was mention of pulsing the cell voltage to bump up the excess heat. OK, I go for what Mark said yesterday; the TV crew didn't film the latest CETI cell in action, but either another one run by Patterson, and maybe during a flushing operation. Why he'd electrolyse while flushing, I don't know. I take you blokes' word for it that normally, CETI runs their electrolytes up from the bottom, like normal people. I thought that the over-unity people came out looking pretty good in that show. Stanley Meyer doesn't seem at all the shifty character he has to be, he was very dignified and believable. Griggs gave off good vibes, the man has a pleasant sense of humour. Puthoff looked impressive in his lab that could serve as a science fiction film setting without anything being added. There were some straight scientists (Czys, Hindley) being neutral. The only skeptic, Frank Close, seemed ill prepared. All in all, the Man in the Street would come out of it saying to himself "There's probably something to this". No, this is not a conversion, I am as skeptical as ever, just reporting it as I saw it. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 06:38:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA23904 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 06:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA23823 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 06:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA09651 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:12:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199601171412.AA09651@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:12:45 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: zpe-t Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 09:12:03 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:29:16 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: zpe-test Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC > >To: @gpu.com:VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.OCM > >Subject: test.for.ZPE > >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 17:54:28 EST > [snip] > ............................................................. > > > Tests to detect ZPE process are difficult. The extraction of > > ZPE produces no ash. The negative gravitational potential of > > the universe is increased and a bit of angular momentum is > > borrowed. No known test can detect these things. > > > .......................................................... > > [snip] Here are a series of statements which are really questions in order to better understand what you are saying: If a sealed container produced energy E via ZPE, it must increase the negative gavitational potential of the universe by M, where E=MCC, so M=CC/E. If we assume the potential is created within the sealed box, we can assume then that the box must weigh more (not less, as with fusion or fision). However, some of the energy, call it e will be radiated away in photons which have a non zero rest mass, call the total m. Now, if we can determine the total amount of energy created (E), and the amount of energy radiated (E), we should be able to determine the weight change of the box (w) and see if it matches: w = M - m = E/CC - e/CC. Assume the experiment weighs about 1E5 g. (100Kg), and that we can accurately weigh a +1g change (+- 10 mg). That's quite a bit of energy, especially if the experiment runs at 1KW net output. E = (.001 Kg)(3E8 m/s)(3E8 m/s) = 9E13 J = 9E13 Ws = 2.5E7 KWh. Running 24 hrs/day that is a mere 1,000,000 days! So, we need a factor of 1000 improvement to detect the effect within a 3 year experimental period. So one question is it possible to increase output to say 10KW in a 100Kg sealed device, and weigh that device accuarately for a weight change change of +10 mg (+- .1 mg), and exclude, eliminate or account for chemical and cosmic ray influences on the weight Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 That is almost correct. The weight of the device will remain the same. The new weight added to the system will be the weight of the energy produced. total weight = weight of cell + energy produced/ cc The detection of the extra mass would be proof positive of a ZP genesis process. The amount of extra mass associated with the extra energy is quite small. There will be a loss of mass due to a loss of electrolyte. Some will evaporate. Some will leak. Pump seals are not perfect. Hydrogen will tend to diffuse out of the system. I think we are years away from detecting any mass increase. Total power releases will have to be increased by at least 10,000 X before the effect can be detected. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 09:18:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA20855 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20796 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA11863 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:04:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199601171704.AA11863@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:04:01 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM Subject: vtx: bad news Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 12:03:13 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:54:19 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: bad news X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Jim Reding called Puthoff today and officially cancelled the planned visit of Dennis Cravens to our lab. Apparently they already have four verification programs in operation and feel that it is not in their interest to bring the cell here for us to test. I called Jim today in Florida and asked him why, and if there were any technical problems that have developed. He said no, The decision to cancel was based on the fact that they felt that they already had sufficient verification. I'm meeting with VP Ron Toole next wednsday on the subject. I hope there are no hidden problems. Frank Znidarsic . From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 10:31:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA19200 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA19159 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-154.austin.eden.com (net-1-154.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.154]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id KAA18771 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:54:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:54:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601171654.KAA18771@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A no offense, Dieter...and BTW, thanks a lot for all the good info. I brewed up the electroless Cu plating bath given in Patterson's July 30 1991 patent: 15 g/l Cu(NO3)2 10 g/l NaCO3 30 g/l rochelle salts (KNaC4H4O6.4H2O) 20 g/l NaOH 100 ml/l 37% formaldehyde At first it was a nice blue color, then spontaneously it began to bubble and turn dark. I put in my styrene beads anyway (having first exposed them to chlorosulfonic acid...nasty stuff!) and waited while things bubbled away. Eventually the bath precipitated totally yielding a clear solution above a black spongy precip. (perhaps CuO?) with the styrene balls, looking just as pristine as when they went in, mixed in with the precip. I used to say that chemistry was just a branch of experimental physics...now I'm willing to concede that it is at least a _specialized_ branch of experimental physics. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 10:36:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA04577 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA04506 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA04628 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:18:13 GMT Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:18:13 GMT Message-Id: <199601171818.AA04628@felix.dircon.co.uk> Received: from gw4-067.pool.dircon.co.uk(194.73.168.67) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma004596; Wed Jan 17 18:17:48 1996 X-Sender: dominic@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: dominic@dircon.co.uk (Dominic Murphy) Subject: Re: vtx: It Runs on Water Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To:vortex > >Dominic, > >Perhaps you would accept that we rather feel that a simple explanation of >how these devices had been tested (I'm sure Dennis Cravens would have been >happy to oblige) would have been perhaps of more value than any effort to >explain the ZPF. > >What tends to bother some of us is that some pretty straightforward science >was ignored, leaving the audience with the notion 'maybe this is real', >which TV seems so much to prefer to straight, hard fact. > >By the way, could I have those magazines back? They were my only copies, >and I do need them. > >Chris > I got one through three of "CF" for you, with thanks. Where you want them sent guv? dominic murphy +44 (0)181 747 0499 ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-154.austin.eden.com (net-1-235.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.235]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.1.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA29506 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:39:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:39:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601171939.NAA29506@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: bad news X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank said: >I called Jim today in Florida and asked him why, and if there were any >technical problems that have developed. He said no, The decision to cancel >was based on the fact that they felt that they already had sufficient >verification. I'm meeting with VP Ron Toole next wednsday on the subject. >I hope there are no hidden problems. When dealing with astounding observations, one must go to great lengths to ensure that the observations are real. It is not sufficient to simply measure the thing over and over again the same way each time. Martin & I were going to make two, simultaneous, independent measurements of the heat output of the cell. I don't think that has been done before (Jed, don't chew me out if it has...just tell me where to read about it :-). If we could get _both_ of our calorimetric measurements to give the same result on the CETI cell it would constitute virtual proof that the effect is real. If I were you, Frank, I'd tell VP Toole that you _________ the effect is real. In the blank you can insert your choice of: think feel like are pretty sure that have been told that etc. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 13:06:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA21806 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA21754 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyyh15089; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24903; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:49:05 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 285247110096017FEPRI; 17 Jan 1996 11:47:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 17 Jan 1996 11:47:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: bad news To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/17/96 11:47:51 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/17/96 09:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: bad news Something is fishy. Refusing to work with a major potential investor makes me feel really ill at ease.... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 14:06:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA21777 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA21743 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:49:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyyh15077; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14664; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:49:05 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 053948110096017FEPRI; 17 Jan 1996 11:48:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 17 Jan 1996 11:48:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: bad news To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/17/96 11:48:38 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/17/96 09:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: bad news Frank: Was Puthoff going to be the "formal" lab for the GPU assessement? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 14:53:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA23052 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA23021 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA07749 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:33:15 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:34:21 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: zpe-t Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >If a sealed container produced energy E via ZPE, it must increase the >negative gavitational potential of the universe by M, where E=MCC, so >M=CC/E. If we assume the potential is created within the sealed box, we >can assume then that the box must weigh more (not less, as with fusion or >fision). However, some of the energy, call it e will be radiated away in >photons which have a non zero rest mass, call the total m. Now, if we can >determine the total amount of energy created (E), and the amount of energy >radiated (E), we should be able to determine the weight change of the box ^^^ Typo correction: the above should read (e). >(w) and see if it matches: > >w = M - m = E/CC - e/CC. > >Assume the experiment weighs about 1E5 g. (100Kg), and that we can >accurately weigh a +1g change (+- 10 mg). That's quite a bit of energy, >especially if the experiment runs at 1KW net output. E = (.001 Kg)(3E8 >m/s)(3E8 m/s) = 9E13 J = 9E13 Ws = 2.5E7 KWh. Running 24 hrs/day that is a >mere 1,000,000 days! > >So, we need a factor of 1000 improvement to detect the effect within a 3 >year experimental period. So one question is it possible to increase >output to say 10KW in a 100Kg sealed device, and weigh that device >accuarately for a weight change change of +10 mg (+- .1 mg), and exclude, >eliminate or account for chemical and cosmic ray influences on the weight > > > >Regards, > PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 >Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 Frank wrote: >That is almost correct. The weight of the device will remain the same. >The new weight added to the system will be the weight of the energy >produced. > > total weight = weight of cell + energy produced/ cc > > > >The detection of the extra mass would be proof positive of a ZP genesis >process. The amount of extra mass associated with the extra >energy is quite small. There will be a loss of mass due to a loss of >electrolyte. Some will evaporate. Some will leak. Pump seals are not >perfect. > Hydrogen will tend to diffuse out of the system. I think we are years > away from detecting any mass increase. Total power releases will have to >be increased by at least 10,000 X before the effect can be detected. > > Frank Znidarsic It sounds like we are in sync. in our understanding of the weight/energy relationship, except using the above definitions I have said: Total weight = weight of cell + energy produced/CC - energy radiated/CC That is to say: Toatal weight = weight of cell + w Where: w = M - m = E/CC - e/CC. The reason for this is I don't think it is possible to prevent most of the generated energy (and therefore mass) from radiating away. It would be absolutely necessary to measure the radiated energy, as it would undoubtedly account for the vast majority of the energy. I would expect no detectable weight change of the sealed cell, becuase that much energy would simply vaporize the cell. I think such an experiment could be sealed in glass, which could then be sealed in a welded metal container suspended by a wire attached to a "scale" in a vacuum chamber. That's why the 100Kg esitimate (maybe very optimistic). Perhaps the other side of the scale could contain an identical control cell that is not operated, to compensate for mass increases/decreases due to cosmic ray bombardment. Implicit in all this is the assumption that the thing can be made self-sufficient, i.e. to generate it's own electricity. Doing this in a small closed environment might be very difficult, as would designing a means of radiating the energy away. For various reasons, I think it might be possible to directly produce and radiate the energy away in the form of microwaves, and that would also make it easier to measure. Any thoughts? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 18:38:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA04662 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04645 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id SAA06463; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:17:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:17:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry In-Reply-To: <199601171654.KAA18771@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > At first it was a nice blue color, then spontaneously it began to bubble and > turn dark. Hey, brainstorm! If you heat palladium hydride to incandescence in a hard vacuum, does it coat everything with pure palladium, or does the H+ stay with it and simply form more palladium hydride? Someone mentioned that the CETI beads were vacuum plated. If so, and if Vacuum Plating serves to remove H+ from the palladium source material, then perhaps vacuum plating of plastic beads solves the two main stumbling blocks for P&F CF: vacuum recasting to expunge H+ at the start, and long dwell times before the new H+ built up to 1:1 with palladium atoms. Oh. Oops. P&F used D2, so this doesn't apply to CETI, and removing the non-D H+ ions would be unnecessary. Unless there's some strange reason that the Pd would need the H+ removed before electrolysis started up? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 19:01:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA25556 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25367 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.59.115.144] (ppp34.swcp.com [198.59.115.144]) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA07452; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:42:41 -0700 X-Sender: rollo@swcp.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:43:19 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (Scott Little) From: rollo@artvark.com (Rollo Silver) Subject: Re: vtx: bad news Cc: little@eden.com Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim, The last connection I had with what Puthoff et al were doing was talking to Puthoff at the Denver Free Energy conference, what? a year and a half ago? What stuck in my mind was his proposal for a "1 Watt Challenge", and his description of the apparatus in which electrons perhaps collapsed into tiny tori under ZPE pressure. Is he at EarthTech International? Is it possible to get an update on what you-all are doing, and what you have accomplished? Rollo Silver | e-mail: rollo@artvark.com | Artvark | Home page: http://www.artvark.com/artvark/ | PO Box 219 | Voice: 505-586-0197 | San Cristobal, NM 87564 USA | Compuserve 71174,1453 | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 19:18:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA09740 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA09596 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA05049; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:19:30 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601172119.AA05049@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: bad news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:19:29 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <199601171939.NAA29506@natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Jan 17, 96 01:39:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Frank said: > > >I called Jim today in Florida and asked him why, and if there were any > >technical problems that have developed. He said no, The decision to cancel > >was based on the fact that they felt that they already had sufficient > >verification. I'm meeting with VP Ron Toole next wednsday on the subject. > >I hope there are no hidden problems. > > Scott said: > > When dealing with astounding observations, one must go to great lengths to > ensure that the observations are real. It is not sufficient to simply > measure the thing over and over again the same way each time. > > Martin & I were going to make two, simultaneous, independent measurements of > the heat output of the cell. I don't think that has been done before (Jed, > don't chew me out if it has...just tell me where to read about it :-). If > we could get _both_ of our calorimetric measurements to give the same result > on the CETI cell it would constitute virtual proof that the effect is real. > I fully agree with Scott. Before your company pays megabucks for rights etc you should definately do tests at least as thorough as Scott and I were planning. I dunno what CETI is asking for a test cell. Maybe it's worth paying 20 K for a test cell. Once you get one of these you should run the sort of similtanous calorimetry meaurements we were planning. You can tell Patterson from me than when they deliberately shaft people planning on doing good measurements they only look bad. I certainly wouldn't bet my job that CETI has the goods. No bloody way! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 21:14:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA25516 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25292 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p3.aa.net (s3c3p3.aa.net [204.157.220.159]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA25058 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:40:08 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601172240.OAA25058@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:41:01 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: bad news Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:44 AM 1/16/96 PST, you wrote: >*** Reply to note of 01/16/96 10:34 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: bad news >Could be good news/and bad news Scott. Am working diligently with local >plating experts to make duplicate of CETI technology. Will keep you informed. >Hardening of CETI position is hard to understand----except for strong >"rumor" info that someone has produced a $1*10**6 for an initial development >license. If this is true, it would allow them to be much more closed mouthed >and reticent to work with others. >- >MDH > > a highly logical deduction fully in accord with standard businesss behavior paradigms analysis of their behavior from distance, with no special knowledge beyond the posts on vortex and one short conversation with an engineer who met them in Monaco, leads me to believe with a 95% certainty that such has transpired or is about to transpire these people are not dumb, if they needed to communicate more at this time, they would be aware of it and would be doing so ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 21:17:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA25440 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25268 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p3.aa.net (s3c3p3.aa.net [204.157.220.159]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA25004 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:39:53 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601172239.OAA25004@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:40:46 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:36 PM 1/16/96 EST, you wrote: >To: Vortex > >Scott Little reports: > > "Jim Reding called Puthoff today and officially cancelled the planned > visit of Dennis Cravens to our lab. Apparently they already have four > verification programs in operation and feel that it is not in their > interest to bring the cell here for us to test." > >My comment: #@(!$!!! . . . > ><INTERRUPTED AND CENSORED BY THE GERMAN POSTAL AUTHORITIES. VE VILL NOW RETURN >YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED BITSTREAM.>> > >. . . last straw, I'm fed up and furthermore I am sick and tired of it. > >Well, Scott I hope you charge those people for your computer and $15 per hour >for your time. > >I had planned to rake them over the coals at MIT on Saturday. I have written a >presentation in which I bend over backwards to be fair and evenhanded. I shall >revise it. I think I will put back the part where I say their strategy appears >to be based on the coitus interruptus school of public relations. Dear Jed, I fully empathise with your reaction and attitude about this situation. But this next statement: >I have dealt >with many companies and many customers in my life. I have never seen anyone >take such a golden opportunity and blow it so badly. > >- Jed > I have used myself, more than once, and I am willing to bet a buck that you have to! People make such decisions and act like that when they think that plenty of the critters are eating out of their hands and that little critter over there, well, he is just a little late and a little too hard to throw a crumb too, so tough luck little critter, better luck next time. I used to think it was arrogance until I had to face the fact that I do the same thing. Its human nature dealing with the constant of not enough time to do whatever it is you are doing the way everybody would like you to do it. Bottom line, with less knowledge that you have, I predict that CETI believes that it has its financial partnering act together and doesnt need to communicate further at this time. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 23:22:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA05611 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA05583 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:11:50 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA10410 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:10:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:10:32 -0500 Message-ID: <960118012603_63715520@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bad news Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rollo Silver asks if I'm at EarthTech International. The answer is yes. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 01:09:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA04561 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA04554 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA31514; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:53:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:53:21 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, William Beaty wrote: [...] > If you heat palladium hydride to incandescence in a hard vacuum, does it > coat everything with pure palladium, or does the H+ stay with it and > simply form more palladium hydride? > > Someone mentioned that the CETI beads were vacuum plated. If so, and if [...] First of all, if you heat PdH, you drive off the hydrogen, iow you split up the compound. But what does this have to do with plating of beads? If you were to vacuum deposit Pd on beads, you'd start with Pd itself. I'd prefer to see at least the first Cu layer deposited as vapour, but I can't easily see how one can do this on beads. Maybe it's no problem, you'd need to continuously turn the beads over in the deposition chamber. From then on, I reckon you'd have no problem with the other layers (Pd, Ni) that go on top of the Cu. But I guess while you're at it, these might as well go on as vapour, too. Unless... all this deviates from the CETI recipe so much, that they'll say (when you get no XS heat) that your conditions weren't right. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 01:23:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA03207 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA03197 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA29990; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:37:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:37:31 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry In-Reply-To: <199601171654.KAA18771@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > no offense, Dieter...and BTW, thanks a lot for all the good info. 's OK. > I brewed up the electroless Cu plating bath given in Patterson's July 30 > 1991 patent: > > 15 g/l Cu(NO3)2 > 10 g/l NaCO3 HA! Now it's my turn! That should be Na2CO3, heh heh. > 30 g/l rochelle salts (KNaC4H4O6.4H2O) > 20 g/l NaOH > 100 ml/l 37% formaldehyde > > At first it was a nice blue color, then spontaneously it began to bubble and > turn dark. I put in my styrene beads anyway (having first exposed them to > chlorosulfonic acid...nasty stuff!) and waited while things bubbled away. > Eventually the bath precipitated totally yielding a clear solution above a > black spongy precip. (perhaps CuO?) with the styrene balls, looking just as > pristine as when they went in, mixed in with the precip. What you have here is a variant of Fehling's solution. The tartrate (Rochelle) is there to keep the copper from precipitating in the basic solution. Formaldehyde is a reducing agent. Basically, the solution is ready to go off spontaneously, formaldehyde reducing the Cu++ ions to Cu+ and then to Cu metal. The books say that this redox reaction will be catalysed by surfaces, such as your beads. My guess is that in order to prevent the reaction from going off in the solution itself, you have to use very clean components. Certainly distilled water, deionised is possibly not good enough, as it often contains organic residues. Any kind of dirt will set the reaction off. Also, filter the solution through a fine filter, before you add the formalin. The trick is to get the reaction to bite on the beads initially; once there is a bit of copper on them, it will catalyse more deposition. You probably know all this. Do you have the book "Industrial Electrochemistry" by Pletcher? -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 01:54:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA06266 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA06260 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA27499; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:12:51 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:12:50 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bad news In-Reply-To: <199601172240.OAA25058@big.aa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Michael Mandeville wrote: [...] > these people are not dumb, if they needed to communicate more at this time, > they would be aware of it and would be doing so This list is amusing, it reminds me of a "bang-bang" circuit. There are swings between "They are geniuses" and "they are fishy, might be crooks". I have been called a wolf in sheep's clothes. Let me partly unzip the sheep's skin and make a prediction: CETI and its claims will now quietly fade away. There will not be any amazing energy generators sold this, or next, year. Investors putting in their money right now will write it all off in a few years. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. Same thing with the wonderful Potapov device. At least Griggs' machine is of practical use, with or without ou, it heats water in a way that suits some customers. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 02:19:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA10008 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA10002 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p0.aa.net (s3c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.132]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA30873 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:07:16 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601181007.CAA30873@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:06:47 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: bad news Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:12 AM 1/18/96 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Michael Mandeville wrote: > >[...] >> these people are not dumb, if they needed to communicate more at this time, >> they would be aware of it and would be doing so > >This list is amusing, it reminds me of a "bang-bang" circuit. There are >swings between "They are geniuses" and "they are fishy, might be crooks". >I have been called a wolf in sheep's clothes. Let me partly unzip the >sheep's skin and make a prediction: CETI and its claims will now quietly >fade away. There will not be any amazing energy generators sold this, or >next, year. Investors putting in their money right now will write it all >off in a few years. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. Same thing >with the wonderful Potapov device. At least Griggs' machine is of >practical use, with or without ou, it heats water in a way that suits some >customers. > >-- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk > > Ahh, the gauntlet has been thrown down, has it? Well, we'll see!!! ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 05:52:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA25625 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 05:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA25615 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 05:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA17624 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:41:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199601181341.AA17624@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:41:27 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: bad news Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 08:40:36 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 17 Jan 1996 11:48:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: bad news To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/17/96 11:48:38 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com *** Reply to note of 01/17/96 09:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: bad news Frank: Was Puthoff going to be the "formal" lab for the GPU assessment? Mark: Hal is not working with GPU at all at this time. The best source of info I have is George Miley. I intend to bring him to GPU. Our first course of action is to verify CETI claims. George indicates that all is well with the CETI device. I believe him. Tom Passell of EPRI reports that all is well with the CETI device. Kansas City Power and Light is boiling water. We plan to go and see the high pressure cell, if we can. I would like to begin to develop our own ZP device. I want to bring Hal to GPU to advise us. My meeting next Wednesday will tell the tale. With the support I have now, It is going to be a go. North Carolina Power and Light have already started working with CETI. CETI does have a contract with a fortune 50 company. They have the real thing. I am sorry that they didn't work with Hal. I like Hal and believe in his work. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 06:55:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA03111 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA03097 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA00520; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:40:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:40:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Dieter Britz wrote: ... > Unless... all this deviates from the CETI > recipe so much, that they'll say (when you get no XS heat) that your > conditions weren't right. Yes, this is what started me thinking about the vacuum plating. And my original idea was that an ingot of "pure" Pd is already crammed with hydrogen from the environment, it's already part way to being palladium hydride. Rather than multiple recasts, perhaps one way to excize the hydrogen would be to use a vacuum plating setup. But I'm just being distracting here because D2O isn't being used, so there's no reason to remove the H+ from the Pd. Hmmm. CETI is definitly using H2O and not D2O, right? Do they claim to use normal water, or do they let us assume this is the case? Correct me if I'm wrong, but P&F reported energy gains from H2O/Pd control cells, right? And one of their secrets was the recasting of the Pd to eliminate the H. Could it be that for some mysterious reason the H must be removed from the Pd electrodes before the experiment, even if H2O is used instead of D2O? Maybe the heat output from their "control" cells would not have occurred had they used off-the-shelf Pd electrodes. My original question above really was: if Pd is vacuum plated onto a surface, will the naturally occurring H in the Pd source be "plated" right along with the metal? I can't see how this could be avoided, or why it would effect the CF mechanism. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 08:46:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA22337 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA22303 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22016 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:16:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601181616.LAA22016@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:22:18 -0500 To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and cold fusion Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have exchanged some emails privately with Dr. Conte and have obtained copies of his papers which Bill Beaty has made available via the Web site. I have printed these documents as best I can, however they are in Microsoft WORKS format (notice: this is *not* the same as Microsoft WORD! Further, neither my version of WordPerfect, nor WORD can convert from the WORKS format. The best I could do was to convert it as a text document - the result was a bit of a mess. So I was wondering... can anyone out there in Vortexia convert these WORKS (.wps) files to a more friendly format? I would most appreciate it if anyone has the appropriate facilities. Please let me know. Anyway, in spite of these conversion problems, it is clear that Dr. Conte is proposing a modification of quantum mechanics which would allow tightly bound states of the proton+electron that he identifies with the neutron. This is not a new idea, the subject has a long history starting with Rutherford (1900's). The problem has normally been that the known properties of the neutron are not compatible with the properties of a (Coulomb mediated) bound state. But apparently Conte's Biquaterion generalization of quantum mechanics allows for the formation of a new kind of bound state which has the right properties to represent the neutron! This is a major new result (if true). Notice that various other theorists (such as J.P. Vigier) have proposed similar tightly bound states. So far their theories have not withstood the critical evaluation of other theorists. But the possible evidence for such a states has continued to appear in the observations of "CF" researchers. AND more over, Conte has proposed and is apparenly carrying out experiments, based specifically on this new theory, intended to detect the formation of the proposed nuclear reaction p + e -> n in an experimental setup that differs significantly from any previous "CF" apparatus of which I am aware. Of course there are numerous questions to ask. At the top of my list are: 1) What happens to the concept of neutrino? 2) Normally the reaction considered above is exothermic (ie. additional energy is required to form the neutron) and the neutron (outside the nucleus) has only a relatively short lifetime (10 - 15 minutes). I think the answer lies in the files which Conte has provided, but I am not able to decipher them sufficiently to read these sections. So again. Can anyone out there help me with converting these files? Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 09:05:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA15437 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.indirect.com (root@ns1.indirect.com [165.247.1.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA15395 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.247.24.55 (s55.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.55]) by ns1.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA29330 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:51:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:51:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199601181551.IAA29330@ns1.indirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Reed Huish Subject: Re: vtx: bad news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199601181007.CAA30873@big.aa.net> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Ahh, the gauntlet has been thrown down, has it? Well, we'll see!!! We certainly will... - Reed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 09:29:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA01340 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA01323 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzbo17249; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09739; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:09:12 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 743508090096018FEPRI; 18 Jan 1996 09:08:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Jan 1996 09:08:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/18/96 09:08:35 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/18/96 08:45 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co Bill, what's your mailing address. Microsoft Works is rather old, I have an "old" copy of the execuatable I could "loan" you to allow you to translate to a more compatible state. Thanks for reviewing the information for us. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 12:07:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA06667 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA23084 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p4.aa.net (s3c0p4.aa.net [204.157.220.136]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA19210 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:03:21 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601181903.LAA19210@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:03:37 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:08 AM 1/18/96 PST, you wrote: >*** Reply to note of 01/18/96 08:45 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co >Bill, what's your mailing address. Microsoft Works is rather old, I have >an "old" copy of the execuatable I could "loan" you to allow you to >translate to a more compatible state. Thanks for reviewing the >information for us. MDH > > oh hell, just send the stuff to me. I have been getting a lot of practice lately converting several megabytes of reference material into ascii, Word, and html. I can do it fast and pretty well. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 12:28:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA10914 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA10885 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzcb00621; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09509; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:12:15 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 250411120096018FEPRI; 18 Jan 1996 12:11:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Jan 1996 12:11:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics an To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/18/96 12:11:03 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/18/96 12:07 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics an Thanks Mike M. for the conversion offer. Amen and Hallellulia brothers and Sisters, we have be "converted", blessed be the name of the PC! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 14:54:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA09971 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA09902 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA01938; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:34:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:34:44 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bad news In-Reply-To: <199601181341.AA17624@power.gpu.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > and Light have already started working with CETI. CETI does have > a contract with a fortune 50 company. They have the real thing. I Is this a typo and you meant Fortune 500 company, or did you truly mean a company in the top fifty? > Frank Znidarsic > Charles From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 15:58:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA17776 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA17740 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from iota.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA25787; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:07:43 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:07:43 +0100 Message-Id: <9601182307.AA25787@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Bill Page X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Reply to Bill Page I have to delineate some basic questions: - No! The problem is different. As I report in the references of the file, the suggestion on the neutron constituted as compressed hydrogen atom ( system (p,e)) was actually submitted by Rutherford about 1930. Unfortunately, it was forced to be abandoned since re- sulted, as in effect it is, INCOMPATIBLE with the usual quantum mechanics that in that time had a great success: the reasons are ...... balancing energetic considerations, ...., the spin, ..., and so on. The biquaternion quantum mechanics solves these problems. First of all, it is shown that the e- lectron penetrates into the proton with energy about 1.3 Mev and not 0.511 kev as in the standard case ( thus, no energy is required, it is a true cold fusion) and the problem of balancing energy is cleared; in particular, it is shown in the file that we have about=20 70 kev of energy produced for each fusion, in addi- tion in biquaternion quantum mechanics it is also=20 solved the problem of the spin: in the paper it is=20 obtained that the compressed hydrogen atom is=20 formed with the spin of the proton, and thus also this basic problem is solved from the theory; - if other theories appeared predicing the forma- tion of these bound states, it is of basic impor- tance to outline here that we have now a=20 GENERALIZATION of the usual quantum me- chanics and that this is obtained by LHBT. Thus, it is a quantum generalized theory that, finally, explains the existence of these pheno- mena. In addition, consider also that this gene- ralized theory not only predices the cold fusion for this and other particles, but also it identifies, also it delineates analitically, and also it calcu- lates the proper form of the interaction that is at the basis of the phenomenon. In particular, the theory evidences that the two particles inducing the=20 cold fusion, experience a short range non local interaction due to the overlapping of wave packets, as of course in Fermi legacy. All this is obtained=20 by correctly generalizing the usual quantum theory by LHBT. By these considerations, I intend to=20 support that, actually, all the aspects of the invo- lved problems seem to be regulated from the bi- quaternion quantum mechanics so that no sub- stantial remark may be moved; - the problem of the neutrino: I have not expe- rienced the system, however at theoretical basis=20 it may be evidenced that the reaction (p,e) to form n, may involve the neutrino; - also the problem of the lifetime (mean age) of the neutron has been discussed in biquaternion quantum mechanics, and I have not reported results=20 in the file for brevity; - the problem of the experiment. It must be clear that it is of cold fusion, also it is evident that it has not an high cost but re- quires a particular care in the execution=20 for a variety of problems. This, after all, was one of the important elements to submit it to vortex, to agree for the pro- cedures, and to see to obtain reproducible=20 results with other experimental groups; - finally, in my opinion, the result of the biquaternion quantum mechanics may be applyed directly to realize a model of the=20 experimental results regarding the "tradi- tional " cold fusion. It is only the problem to=20 work on. Sincerely Elio Conte =20 --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 19:18:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA17526 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA17504 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA11494 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:05:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199601190205.AA11494@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:05:05 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bad n Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 21:04:23 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:34:44 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bad news In-Reply-To: <199601181341.AA17624@power.gpu.com> Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > and Light have already started working with CETI. CETI does have > a contract with a fortune 50 company. They have the real thing. I Is this a typo and you meant Fortune 500 company, or did you truly mean a company in the top fifty? > Frank Znidarsic > Charles 50 it is. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 20:02:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA12531 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA12488 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA23257 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:59:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601181759.MAA23257@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:05:50 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hugo wrote: >Subject: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co >Bill, what's your mailing address. Microsoft Works is rather old, I have >an "old" copy of the execuatable I could "loan" you to allow you to >translate to a more compatible state. Thanks for reviewing the >information for us. MDH William S. Page 640 Jig St. R.R. # 1 Oxford Mills, Ontario CANADA K0G 1S0 Tel: (613) 258 4040 Fax: (613) 258 4719 Mark, Notice the Canadian mailing address. Occassionally the Canadian customs department gets involved and charges me those special Canadian taxes we all love ... so if you do send something, try to make it look as much like "ordinary" mail as possible and if required, declare as low a value of the contents as you reasonably can (ie. cost of a diskette). Thanks. Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 20:16:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA22570 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22405 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p4.aa.net (s3c0p4.aa.net [204.157.220.136]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA18931 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:58:29 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601181858.KAA18931@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:58:38 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and cold fusion Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:22 AM 1/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >I have exchanged some emails privately with Dr. Conte and have obtained >copies of his papers which Bill Beaty has made available via the >Web site. I have printed these documents as best I can, however they >are in Microsoft WORKS format (notice: this is *not* the same as >Microsoft WORD! Further, neither my version of WordPerfect, nor WORD >can convert from the WORKS format. The best I could do was to convert >it as a text document - the result was a bit of a mess. > >So I was wondering... can anyone out there in Vortexia convert these >WORKS (.wps) files to a more friendly format? I would most appreciate >it if anyone has the appropriate facilities. Please let me know. twere ever thus in microweenieland love Word, hate Word there is no cure by Microsoft however, one thing which helps mightily is to do the following: load and then "save as" in Works (it is really Write) as a text file load it in Word as a text file with layout then try Words auto-format routine sometimes that gets you 90% there, sometimes autoformat is a total disaster zone if autoformat creates more problems than it solves, abandon and reload the text file with layout the rest you have to do manually the replace function is very very good at eliminating strange stuff like section breaks which shouldnt be there, tab marks which shouldnt be there, etc just remember that replace is absolutely guaranteed to be absolutely literal minded - it doenst make any guesses. you want tab marks gone, there are oughta there. But you may not have wanted that exactly, you may have forgotten that you needed a space to replace a tab, etc. or one space for every two tabs, or one space for every three spaces, or something. one trick for these problems is that on the replace box inside the replace dialog box, you can simply hit the spacebar once (or any number of times) and then click okay. Word will then find what you didnt want and replace it with a space (or the total number of times you had hit the spacebar)for all instances (if you had clicked replace all) that is the easy stuff tables and formulas - ouch, all have to be redone and/or reformatted, sometimes chararcter by character. I would definitely try autoformat on a table > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 20:16:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA02512 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA02479 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA06948; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:39:21 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601190339.AA06948@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:39:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <199601172239.OAA25004@big.aa.net> from "Michael Mandeville" at Jan 18, 96 02:40:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Micheal Mandeville wrote:> > > I have used myself, more than once, and I am willing to bet a buck that you > have to! > > People make such decisions and act like that when they think that plenty of > the critters are eating out of their hands and that little critter over > there, well, he is just a little late and a little too hard to throw a crumb > too, so tough luck little critter, better luck next time. I used to think > it was arrogance until I had to face the fact that I do the same thing. Its > human nature dealing with the constant of not enough time to do whatever it > is you are doing the way everybody would like you to do it. Bottom line, > with less knowledge that you have, I predict that CETI believes that it has > its financial partnering act together and doesnt need to communicate further > at this time. > Yes, I'm sure we were used. It's a new experience to me and very unpleasant it is too. I finally got a call from Reding. He was most apologetic but said the chairman of the board, (whoever that is) was quite adament. I guess the Fortune 50 company has paid up and insisted on their own man at the top. Reding was planning to visit EarthTech himself for the tests and kept hanging out the option of doing it some other time. He said the timing was wrong. For may part, having been led a merry dance twice, I'll have nothing more to do with them until everything is above board (if that time ever comes). Actually the timing really might have been wrong. Soon after I got the news of the cancellation I called Cravens and was told he had gone to Florida till next Sunday. That would certainly have made doing our tests impossible. Reding really did seem keen to come to EarthTech so my guess is that we were trumped from above. Maybe to deliberately make CETI look like frauds and to scare off other would be replicators. I still think we had a lot to offer them but I guess they think they had enough already. Apparently the latest cell made in Florida (where the POWEREGEN cell ended up) is the best yet. But who's believe Reding now? Cheers, Martin From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 20:42:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA09958 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA09944 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzdh05400; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09882; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:24:16 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 504623200096018FEPRI; 18 Jan 1996 20:23:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Jan 1996 20:23:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/18/96 20:23:45 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/18/96 20:16 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! Martin: I think you unfortunately have not been dealing with Jim, Dennis, Jim Patterson, etc. for very long. I have been dealing with these people for over 2 years. Look---let me try to make this a clear as I can----the current "behavior" is THE most eccentric I have run into in that time. Prior to the last two weeks, Jim**2, Dennis, Paul V. ,etc. have been VERY OPEN, very helpful, very communicative. SOMETHING is up. Further evidence: Miley, et.al. have also "clammed up" Call George, if you don't believe me, and see what sort of response you get. GEORGE IS NO ECCENTRIC!But, I think Miley is smart enough, and savy enough, that if asked to be a "clam" for a few months, and with reason (and $$$$$$ could be good reason, let's deal in the REAL world, not some fantasy ideal world) he would do it. - So do some "out of academic" thinking about this. Try thinking like Ross Perot or Donald Trump. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 21:11:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA02512 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA02479 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA06948; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:39:21 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601190339.AA06948@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:39:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <199601172239.OAA25004@big.aa.net> from "Michael Mandeville" at Jan 18, 96 02:40:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Micheal Mandeville wrote:> > > I have used myself, more than once, and I am willing to bet a buck that you > have to! > > People make such decisions and act like that when they think that plenty of > the critters are eating out of their hands and that little critter over > there, well, he is just a little late and a little too hard to throw a crumb > too, so tough luck little critter, better luck next time. I used to think > it was arrogance until I had to face the fact that I do the same thing. Its > human nature dealing with the constant of not enough time to do whatever it > is you are doing the way everybody would like you to do it. Bottom line, > with less knowledge that you have, I predict that CETI believes that it has > its financial partnering act together and doesnt need to communicate further > at this time. > Yes, I'm sure we were used. It's a new experience to me and very unpleasant it is too. I finally got a call from Reding. He was most apologetic but said the chairman of the board, (whoever that is) was quite adament. I guess the Fortune 50 company has paid up and insisted on their own man at the top. Reding was planning to visit EarthTech himself for the tests and kept hanging out the option of doing it some other time. He said the timing was wrong. For may part, having been led a merry dance twice, I'll have nothing more to do with them until everything is above board (if that time ever comes). Actually the timing really might have been wrong. Soon after I got the news of the cancellation I called Cravens and was told he had gone to Florida till next Sunday. That would certainly have made doing our tests impossible. Reding really did seem keen to come to EarthTech so my guess is that we were trumped from above. Maybe to deliberately make CETI look like frauds and to scare off other would be replicators. I still think we had a lot to offer them but I guess they think they had enough already. Apparently the latest cell made in Florida (where the POWEREGEN cell ended up) is the best yet. But who's believe Reding now? Cheers, Martin From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 21:16:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA16272 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA16265 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA21620; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:58:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: bad n In-Reply-To: <199601190205.AA11494@power.gpu.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > > -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > > Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:34:44 -0500 (EST) > From: Charles Hope > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: vtx: bad news > In-Reply-To: <199601181341.AA17624@power.gpu.com> > Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > > > On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser wrote: > > and Light have already started working with CETI. CETI does have > > a contract with a fortune 50 company. They have the real thing. I > > Is this a typo and you meant Fortune 500 company, or did you truly mean a > company in the top fifty? > > > > > Frank Znidarsic > > > > > Charles > > > 50 it is. > Frank Z > Is this something you know for a certain fact, or is it just a rumor going around -- that CETI has signed a deal with a Fortune Fifty (50) corporation? Charles From chope@escape.com Thu Jan 18 21:19:24 1996 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA19035 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA25518; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:14:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: Bill Page cc: billb@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and cold fusion In-Reply-To: <199601181616.LAA22016@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: A On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Bill Page wrote: > I have exchanged some emails privately with Dr. Conte and have obtained > copies of his papers which Bill Beaty has made available via the > Web site. I have printed these documents as best I can, however they And by the way, where are those papers? I searched the site both manually and also using the search tool (I searched for "biquaternion") and found nil. > > So I was wondering... can anyone out there in Vortexia convert these > WORKS (.wps) files to a more friendly format? I would most appreciate > it if anyone has the appropriate facilities. Please let me know. Someone already offered to help but if he runs into snags, you can send me the files. At work I have recent copies of Works and Word. Charles From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 22:53:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA01778 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01766 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-142.austin.eden.com (net-1-142.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.142]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA09183 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:43:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:43:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601190643.AAA09183@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: boiling water! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, In the same post with the Fortune 50 info, you also mentioned that Kansas Power and Light was BOILING WATER. I assume that means with a CETI cell in their lab. What more can you tell us of this particular work? Scott From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 00:17:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA13248 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA13222 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA02333; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:08:41 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:08:41 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, William Beaty wrote: [...] > Yes, this is what started me thinking about the vacuum plating. And my > original idea was that an ingot of "pure" Pd is already crammed with > hydrogen from the environment, it's already part way to being palladium > hydride. Rather than multiple recasts, perhaps one way to excize the I don't see why. H2 is present in air at only 0.53 ppm; that's 1/10 the concentration of helium, and it is not enough to "cram" into Pd. What I think is behind the outgassing of Pd normally done by CNF workers is this: The Pd might have been used with hydrogen (or deuterium, or tritium) before, and one had better drive it out first if one wants only deuterium in there. The diffusion coefficient of hydrogen in Pd is not very large and diffusion is a slow process, so one would have to wait a very long time for such hydrogen to get out. On the other hand, starting with a pure piece of Pd, it would not absorb any appreciable amount from the air, simply because there isn't much there to absorb. I'd expect an equilibrium loading ratio of roughly 10^-6 or less. Just a guess. I guess if you vaporise a piece of Pd that contained hydrogen, you end up with the hydrogen in the chamber, along with the Pd vapour. Then, both would settle on the surface you are plating. Yes. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but P&F reported energy gains from H2O/Pd control > cells, right? And one of their secrets was the recasting of the Pd to They were a bit embarrassed to admit this, because light water was thought to be a control. They have never published finding excess heat with H2) cells, as far as I know, but Pons did once admit it at a meeting. At another, later, meeting, he started to repeat this, but Fleischmann stopped him. This is what I heard. At this time, everybody reckoned CNF was dd fusion, and pp fusion is much less likely still. Now, people are not so fixated on what the process is, and we have several theories that allow hydrogen to do the trick as well. > eliminate the H. Could it be that for some mysterious reason the H must > be removed from the Pd electrodes before the experiment, even if H2O is > used instead of D2O? Maybe the heat output from their "control" cells > would not have occurred had they used off-the-shelf Pd electrodes. No; this borders on alchemy. Hydrogen is hydrogen. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 00:38:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA15245 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA15233 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:26:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA07329; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:26:18 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:26:18 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and cold fusion In-Reply-To: <199601181616.LAA22016@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Note that I have just abstracted Conte's Physics Essays paper; it's in the bibliography, and you can of course find it in the cnf-new file. There were also three "alchemy" papers (two of them by Noninski et al, and negative). -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From fznidarsic@gpu.com Fri Jan 19 05:55:57 1996 Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA18724 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA12252 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:55:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199601191355.AA12252@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:55:36 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:54:52 EST Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 18 Jan 1996 20:23:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/18/96 20:23:45 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com *** Reply to note of 01/18/96 20:16 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! Martin: I think you unfortunately have not been dealing with Jim, Dennis, Jim Patterson, etc. for very long. I have been dealing with these people for over 2 years. Look---let me try to make this a clear as I can----the current "behavior" is THE most eccentric I have run into in that time. Prior to the last two weeks, Jim**2, Dennis, Paul V. ,etc. have been VERY OPEN, very helpful, very communicative. SOMETHING is up. Further evidence: Miley, et.al. have also "clammed up" Call George, if you don't believe me, and see what sort of response you get. GEORGE IS NO ECCENTRIC!But, I think Miley is smart enough, and savy enough, that if asked to be a "clam" for a few months, and with reason (and $$$$$$ could be good reason, let's deal in the REAL world, not some fantasy ideal world) he would do it. - Georo some "out of academic" thinking about this. Try thinking like Ross Perot or Donald Trump. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 06:12:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA18699 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA18688 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA14535 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:55:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199601191355.AA14535@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:55:07 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: boiling w Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:54:22 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:43:42 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: boiling water! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Frank, In the same post with the Fortune 50 info, you also mentioned that Kansas Power and Light was BOILING WATER. I assume that means with a CETI cell in their lab. What more can you tell us of this particular work? Scott I'm going to put in a call to Charlie Ross at Kansas City Power and Light today. I want to talk to him first hand. The info I have now on that work is only hear-say. I let you know what I find out. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 07:18:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA26972 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 06:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA26949 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 06:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07245 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:45:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601191445.JAA07245@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:59:07 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: pe=n? Conte's theory (was: Reply to Bill Page) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Prof Elio Conte; You wrote: > ... First of all, it is shown that the e- >lectron penetrates into the proton with energy about >1.3 Mev and not 0.511 kev as in the standard case ( >thus, no energy is required, it is a true cold fusion) >and the problem of balancing energy is cleared; in >particular, it is shown in the file that we have about >70 kev of energy produced for each fusion, Ok. I understand that in this representation, both the electron and proton are treated as spacially extended "particles". Is it correct to think that the mass and charge of the particles is to be considered to be "spread" across some (small - approx. 10^(-15) m = fm) region of space? Should we try to identify the "particle" with the wavefunction? (Wavefunctions are naturally spread over space, but are usually interpreted in a "non-physical" manner.). When some attempt is made to assign a "radius" to particles such as protons and electrons, usually it works out that the electron is much "bigger" then the proton. So, in one sense, at least, not very much of the "electron" can be found inside of the "proton". Notice above that I have used "" a lot. This is because usually these notions of extended particles is considered just to be a colorful way of speaking - a useful model in some cases but not "really" they way things are. In any case, the treatment of the nucleus of atoms (including the proton in hydrogen) as a spacially extended charge does have a good precedent. This sort of treatment is necessary in order that the conventional calculation of the fine and hyperfine spectrographic splittings work out empirically. The notion that the electron can be found inside the proton without an immediate weak interaction (fusion) is not really such a strange idea. It is consistent with conventional quantum mechanic, but conventional quantum mechanics does say that such an event is not very *likely* to be observed. Still it must be allowed for. However, the notion that when the the electron is inside the proton that its rest mass is much higher than in free space is new to me. Again, I am not saying that this is not possible - only that it is novel - not conventional. So is this a reasonable question: Where should we think of this "additional" energy as coming from? In the spirit of special relativity, shouldn't we think of this energy as only being apparent in the frame of reference of the electron? If 70 Kev is released on the formation of a neutron from the fusion of a proton and electron, what form does this energy take? And also, since an isolated neutron is unstable and spontaneously decays after a relatively short time (half-life approx 10 minutes: In a population of many isolated neutrons, half of them decay to protons, electrons and anti-neutrinos in about 10 minutes.) where does the 70 Kev come from to make this possible? > in addi- >tion in biquaternion quantum mechanics it is also >solved the problem of the spin: in the paper it is >obtained that the compressed hydrogen atom is >formed with the spin of the proton, and thus also this >basic problem is solved from the theory; I'll easily accept that the concept of spin is directly tied to a relativistic treatment of quantum mechanics (Dirac's equation) but again, it is very unusual to claim that, in effect, the spin of the electron vanishes when it is inside the proton. Here you (Conte) seem to be saying that "rest mass" and "spin" are contextual properties of particles as opposed to the more common notion that these are intrinsic properties. Again, this does have a precedent, but it is unconventional. So I suppose it must be clarified how Conte's Biquarterion quantum mechanics relates to the existing relativistic treatments of quantum mechanics. Of course, Conte's claim also goes very much against the widely accepted (but I'll admit most likely wrong) standard model which states that the proton is a hadron made up of three quarks, while an electron is an elementary lepton. Unfortunately I also think that almost all particle physicists would very much like to retain the standard model. There have been other attempts to develop non-quark models such as the work by A. Barut et al. but in spite of promising results, this work is not considered highly by the majority of physicists. >- if other theories appeared predicing the forma- >tion of these bound states, it is of basic impor- >tance to outline here that we have now a >GENERALIZATION of the usual quantum me- >chanics and that this is obtained by LHBT. J. P. Vigier was working within conventional quantum mechanics making use of Bohm's (de Broglie's) interpretation for calculation of orbitals with an approximate treatment of magnetic interactions. Others have made direct use of Dirac's equation. As I mentioned, so far these approaches to tightly bound states have not been accepted by the majority of theoretical physicists. >Thus, it is a quantum generalized theory that, >finally, explains the existence of these pheno- >mena. In addition, consider also that this gene- >ralized theory not only predices the cold fusion >for this and other particles, but also it identifies, >also it delineates analitically, and also it calcu- >lates the proper form of the interaction that is at >the basis of the phenomenon. In particular, the >theory evidences that the two particles inducing the >cold fusion, experience a short range non local >interaction due to the overlapping of wave packets, >as of course in Fermi legacy. You have used the term "Fermi legacy" several times in the text of the documents you sent us. I do not understand this term. Could this you explain please? > All this is obtained >by correctly generalizing the usual quantum theory >by LHBT. By these considerations, I intend to >support that, actually, all the aspects of the invo- >lved problems seem to be regulated from the bi- >quaternion quantum mechanics so that no sub- >stantial remark may be moved; Lets forget about cold fusion for a moment (Is that possible? ), since that is still an open question. It seems to me that a good generalization of quantum mechanics ought to have other significant things to say beside that cold fusion might be possible. For example, as I mentioned above, the convential treatment of the hyperfine splitting does make use of a kind of "fudge" in the assumptions made about the form of the potential inside of the nucleus. Using biquarterion quantum mechanics, is it possible to make this calculation without such a (perhaps unjustified) assumption? >- the problem of the neutrino: I have not expe- >rienced the system, however at theoretical basis >it may be evidenced that the reaction (p,e) to >form n, may involve the neutrino; Neutrinos were introduced in order to obtain a mass/energy balance and to explain the observed energy spectrum of the electron emitted during beta decay. This spectrum has a maximum value (cut-off) but otherwise decays are observed with a wide range of kinetic energy values for the electron. The standard approach is to assume that balance of the kinetic energy (and the momentum) is carried away by the neutrino. Although detection of neutrinos is difficult (they interact very little with ordinary matter) there is quite overwhelming evidence that these particles do exist. There is still considerable controversy about whether they have a non-zero rest mass or not. And there is the well known problem that the standard model of the fusion reactions in the sun predicts about three times as many neutrinos as are apparently observed by detectors on Earth. Surely the predictions of biquarterion quantum mechanics would have a major impact on this debate. >- also the problem of the lifetime (mean age) of the neutron >has been discussed in biquaternion quantum >mechanics, and I have not reported results >in the file for brevity; See above. I would like to hear more about this problem. >- the problem of the experiment. It must >be clear that it is of cold fusion, also it is >evident that it has not an high cost but re- >quires a particular care in the execution >for a variety of problems. This, after all, >was one of the important elements to >submit it to vortex, to agree for the pro- >cedures, and to see to obtain reproducible >results with other experimental groups; Before attempting new experiments, I think it might be useful to consider the anomalous results of some the experiments that have been reported in the "CF" literature. For example, the experiments of K. Kamada on "Electron Impact p-p and d-d Fusions in [Hydrogen] Molecules Embedded in Al". Kamada has used ion implant technique to produce a high near surface loading of hydrogen (protium and deuterium). Unlike some other metals, Aluminium does not absorb large quantities of hydrogen, although diffusion of hydrogen in Aluminum is anomalously high. As with many metals, there is some evidence (though not indisputable evidence) that the hydrogen is present in the metal in the form of protons (i.e. with no directly associated bound electron). Also, Aluminium has a rather high electro-negativity, i.e. there are a relatively high number of electrons available at a relatively low energy cost. Kamada observes that apon bombardment of a suitably prepared hyrdogen implanted Al sample in an electron microscope by a sufficiently intense electron beam of about 175 KeV, high energy charged particle traces on adjacent plastic detectors appear representing reaction products of energy over 1 MeV. Kamada considers reactions such as e + p + p -> d + nu (1.44 MeV) Kamada has also observed "anomalous heat evolution in deuteron implanted Al foils" based on the appearance of single crystaline to polycrstalline structure which apparenly only occurs on rapid heating of Al above its melting point. In the light of biquarterion quantum mechanics, perhaps we might also consider d + e - > 2n + ? Because of the deliberate combination of protons and electrons in a situation that promotes wavefunction overlap, I think Kamada's appartus may be a good candidate for looking for the kind of fusion proposed by Conte. >- finally, in my opinion, the result of the >biquaternion quantum mechanics may be >applyed directly to realize a model of the >experimental results regarding the "tradi- >tional " cold fusion. It is only the problem to >work on. Certainly a source of free, thermal neutrons would go a long way to explain some of the anomalous nuclear results that have be claimed in some "CF" experiments. Thank you, Dr. Conte for presenting this material to us. I hope that you will find the discussion here useful and that you will have the time to discuss this further with us (or me, at least). Cheers, Bill Page. PS. We have had some problems finding a way to properly read the documents you sent us which were apparently in Microsoft Works format. Is it possible for you to prepare these documents in some other more common format, e.g. WordPerfect or Microsoft WORD. Also, I and probably several other people reading this list can properly handel LaTeX format files which are widely used in scientific publishing. It is also possible for most people to view postscript format documents using publically available programs. Thank you. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 11:21:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA09052 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA09041 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA07308; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:56:52 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601191856.AA07308@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:56:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: from "MHUGO@EPRI" at Jan 18, 96 08:23:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Mark Hugo writes: > Martin: I think you unfortunately have not been dealing with Jim, Dennis, > Jim Patterson, etc. for very long. I have been dealing with these people > for over 2 years. Look---let me try to make this a clear as I can----the > current "behavior" is THE most eccentric I have run into in that time. Prior > to the last two weeks, Jim**2, Dennis, Paul V. ,etc. have been VERY OPEN, > very helpful, very communicative. SOMETHING is up. Further evidence: Miley, > et.al. have also "clammed up" Call George, if you don't believe me, and > see what sort of response you get. GEORGE IS NO ECCENTRIC!But, I think > Miley is smart enough, and savy enough, that if asked to be a "clam" for > a few months, and with reason (and $$$$$$ could be good reason, let's deal > in the REAL world, not some fantasy ideal world) he would do it. > - That's certainly an interpretation of the events that makes sense. I've sent some email to Miley and received a very curt response. > So do some "out of academic" thinking about this. Try thinking like > Ross Perot or Donald Trump. MDH > I'm not interested in dealing with people like that. I'd much rather deal with people I can trust. Martin From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 14:22:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA14439 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14309 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzfp17741; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24156; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:27:23 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 613826110096019FEPRI; 19 Jan 1996 11:26:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 19 Jan 1996 11:26:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/19/96 11:26:36 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/19/96 11:21 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! Martin: I didn't say anything about dealing with any "class" of people. I merely suggested to TRY to think like the examples I gave you. Latest Reader's Digest has a book story on the fellow that developed the psycological profiling for modeling serial killers. This fellow, obviously, is not a psycopath himself. But, one of the more successful ploys he has is to work at THINKING LIKE a psycopath. It's the old combat situation where you are trying to "think like the enemy" as it were. The more you can "think like the enemy" the more you can understand what they are doing, and maybe even---what they are going to do. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 14:25:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA29530 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.indirect.com (root@ns2.indirect.com [165.247.1.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29513 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.247.24.92 (s92.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.92]) by ns2.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA23880 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:02:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:02:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199601192102.OAA23880@ns2.indirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Reed Huish Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >So do some "out of academic" thinking about this. Try thinking like >Ross Perot or Donald Trump. MDH Exactly. The big "M" came through. This is a excellent example demonstrating that free energy is no longer in the hands of scientists & engineers -- its up to the businesspeople & entrepreneurs. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 14:46:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA12295 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA12157 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.59.115.145] (ppp35.swcp.com [198.59.115.145]) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA07621; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:14:16 -0700 X-Sender: rollo@swcp.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:14:58 -0700 To: mwm@aa.net (Michael Mandeville), vortex-l@eskimo.com From: rollo@artvark.com (Rollo Silver) Subject: vtx: Re: Prof. E. Conte's documents Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 09:08 AM 1/18/96 PST, you wrote: >>*** Reply to note of 01/18/96 08:45 >>From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >>Subject: vtx: Prof. E. Conte's documents on quantum mechanics and co >>Bill, what's your mailing address. Microsoft Works is rather old, I have >>an "old" copy of the execuatable I could "loan" you to allow you to >>translate to a more compatible state. Thanks for reviewing the >>information for us. MDH >oh hell, just send the stuff to me. I have been getting a lot of practice >lately converting several megabytes of reference material into ascii, Word, >and html. I can do it fast and pretty well. Michael, when you get the conversion of Conte's paper to MS Word format could you send it to me, or let me know where I can download it from? TIA, Rollo Silver | e-mail: rollo@artvark.com | Artvark | Home page: http://www.artvark.com/artvark/ | PO Box 219 | Voice: 505-586-0197 | San Cristobal, NM 87564 USA | Compuserve 71174,1453 | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 15:19:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA19423 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19390 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA09987; Fri, 19 Jan 96 17:44:20 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 19 Jan 96 17:44:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 17:37:45 EST Message-Id: <4F06+to,+lA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: THOSE STUPID #@(!$!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >This is a excellent example demonstrating that free energy is no >longer in the hands of scientists & engineers -- its up to the >businesspeople & entrepreneurs. Really? And just how do you manage to get past the bureaucrats, regulatory agencies and such? Unless you can prove the process used by the device is understood not to be harmful, you may have another thing comming. The burden of proof is not on them to prove it is harmful after all. Then again, even the MRA took investors money, even though it does not appear to work. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 17:30:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA15976 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA15945 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA04351; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:15:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:15:36 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Dr. Conte's paper .txt Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Look at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html for versions of Dr. Conte's paper in .txt and windows .wri formats. My hobbyist-level understanding of physics won't let me analyze Conte's math, but it lets me speculate wildly on implications. ;) If slow neutrons are forming in CF electrodes, wouldn't there be detectable betas from their decay, or can't the particles get past the metal and water? Hmm. If ambient antineutrinos are required for Conte's fusion to proceed, then perhaps the proximity of a manmade neutrino source will affect a CF cell. And perhaps hydrogen<=>neutron effects play a part in many other unexpected nuclear/chemical reactions besides CF electrochemistry. Could the micro-environment around H in a chemical reaction sometimes lead to this type of neutron production? What kind of energy do the resulting free neutrons need before they will interact with a passing nucleus, and allow Conte's neutron production to cause all sorts of transmutations? But why would the formation and decay of neutrons cause overall energy release in CF electrodes? Would the escaping neutrons not transport energy away from the electrode, then release it elsewhere? I recall a SciAm article about cold neutrons. Apparantly they totally reflect from copper, so a thick copper evacuated vessel can act as a bottle, and be filled with a cloud of bouncing neutrons by directing a neutron beam through heavy filtering and into the bottle. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 20:23:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA14301 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA14249 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA13720 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:11:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199601200411.AA13720@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:11:25 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: KansisCity Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 23:10:43 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 John Barron (technical director) and I talked with Charles J Ross of Kansas City Power and Light. They have a 10 watt cell there with a 20 to 1 energy gain. Charles has one of his engineers building a pressure vessel. They plan to try the device at 400 PSIG. I don't know what they can prove with a little 10 watt cell. He tells me he reversed the leads on the cell once and that ruined the beads and produced a glob of sludge in the process. Kansas City has hired Dr. Quinton Bowles to perform some testing. I also talked with Quniton. He is skeptical. The group is looking for evidence of a nuclear reaction. They know nothing about ZPE. I told C. Ross that I would send him a copy of my disk on ZPE. After the phone call the John asked me not to until after my meeting with V.P. Toole this Wednesday. That burns me. It's my work, not GPU's. Kansas City has invested $100,000 on the project in conjunction with EPRI. That's peanuts as compared to what I think is going to happen. I may be off to Kansas with John Barron and Roger Carns. Maybe we should bring Toe Toe to. Dr. Bowles has a nuclear reactor on site. He is bombarding the beads with neutrons and looking for signatures. Can anyone tell me, how does this neutron testing process work? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 22:53:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA00506 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 22:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA00492 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 22:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tdWl5-00051iC; Sat, 20 Jan 96 00:26 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: vtx: KansasCity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:26:39 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser writes: > Kansas City Power and Light. They have a 10 watt cell there with a > 20 to 1 energy gain. Charles has one of his engineers building a > pressure vessel. They plan to try the device at 400 PSIG. I don't > know what they can prove with a little 10 watt cell. 10W out with 0.5W in and you ask what they can prove? :-) But seriously, thanks for the leg work on this investigative reporting. > Maybe we should bring Toe Toe too. You mean Dorothy and Toto -- "I don't think this is Kansas anymore, Toto." Ha :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 23:04:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA01941 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 22:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01927 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 22:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-230.austin.eden.com (net-1-230.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.230]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA01222 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:41:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:41:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601200641.AAA01222@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: KansisCity X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank said: > Dr. Bowles has a nuclear reactor on site. He is bombarding the beads > with neutrons and looking for signatures. Can anyone tell me, how > does this neutron testing process work? I assume you're talking about NAA (neutron activation analysis). You blast away at the sample with neutrons until some small portion of selected elements is transmuted into radioactive isotope(s). Then the sample is removed from the neutron flux and placed in a semsitive gamma counting system where characteristic gammas are counted to quantify the levels of the radioactive isotope. All you need to know is the total mass of the unknown sample and you can get weight concentrations of the selected elements from the gamma counts. Only certain elements can be adequately analyzed with NAA. "We" used to make industrial NAA analyzers that used Pu-238/Be radioisotope neutron sources. The best NAA, however, is done at reactor facilities like Dr. Bowles'. There's one at McMaster University that does NAA analysis as a service (paid, of course). - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 07:24:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA11947 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA11934 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pi.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA16943; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:48:26 +0100 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:48:26 +0100 Message-Id: <9601201448.AA16943@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Bill Page X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Reply to Bill Page:thank you for your interest and for your relevance in the criticism. I will answer in different times to the different questions: 1-The cold fusion of p and e goes back to Rutherford in 1920.This conception of the neutron was abandoned because of the incompatibilies with the usual quantum mechanics.However,we had a conclusive decision based on an approximation:THE POINTLIKE APPROXIMATION of the WAVEPACKET of the electron inside the proton. As expected by Rutherford's electron assumption,the biquaternion quantum mechanics ,and in particular the CGSE(excuse me,we call it Conte's Generalization of Schrodinger Equation),generalizing the usual quantum mechanics,show existing interactions that are due to full immersion of wavepackets within the matter(or the medium)of the proton.The basic relevance of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics is that it shows that such interactions DETERMINE (or are linked to)ALTERATIONS OF THE=20 INTRINSIC CHARACTERISTICS OF THE PARTICLES.This is the important result,and,note,it is determined in a correct formal way by LHBT generalizing the usual theory.Thus,not suggestions or physical intuitions introduced ad hoc or induced to support a physical picture of our physical world:net consequences of a theoretical correct elaboration. In this manner it becomes consistent the problem of the cold fusion of p and e into n plus neutrinos.As rough mechanism, we must imagine that e penetrates inside p at low energy (it is much lighter than the proton):again,the biquaternion=20 quantum mechanics and the CGSE solve those incompatibilies that were with the usual quantum mechanics ,and in particular calculates rest energy,meanlife,charge radius,angular momentum, and spin.All this is due to the discover of a "proper"hamiltonian in CGSE with deep overlapping as obtained by apllying LHBT; 2-we are now speaking of LHBT in biquaternion quantum mechanics and,generally speaking,in biquaternions permitting renormalization of the intrinsic characteristics of the particles. In other terms LHBT------->deep overlapping----->Renormalization of the intrinsic characteristics of particles,and LHBT <---->Renor- malization of the intrinsic characteristics of particles. How must we see such renormalizations?The best indication to see m(of e)----->m'(of e) is again in LHBT:we have a modi- fication of the conventional space-time and space-time symmmetries (please,see the file on this particular subject).The representation of such ....nonlocal.....interactions implyes a necessary=20 modification of the intrinsic characteristics of the particles,and a modification of the basic invariants for special relativity.The usual=20 particles are particular case of representation in the conventional space-time and symmetries,while we have corresponding diversified forms with modified basic invariants in space-time and symmetries:we have inhomogeneous and anisotropic media with a generalization of the space-time representation via Minkowski's space .Minkowski space corresponds to homogeneity and isotropy in vacuum.The use of LHBT shows that this is only a particular case confined to the physical conditions in which it has not importance the account of the inhomogenuity and anisotropy of the medium in which the motion occurs.By=20 LHBT we have the quantitative representation of motion WITHIN INHOMOGENEOUS AND ANISOTROPIC MEDIA.There is,I hope beautiful,a paper by me in publication on a proper scientific journal where it is seen how the different media ,alwasys determi- ned by LHBT,express their different invariants.Of course,a little anticipation is also given in the file; 3- I think that I am answering to some of the important questions that were moved.There is another question.No! The biquaternion=20 Quantum Mechanics is not a new theory that has only aderence with the cold fusion.It is a complete generalization of the usual theory,and in particular it has the attitude to solve the some old problem of quantum mechanics.I remember that,at the starting of our discussion,I announced that a book entitled Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics will be published by my Publishers in this month,and it also contains the diskette that,for scientific discussion, i have anticipated sending it to vortex.Let me consent to suggest the reading of this book to any people interested.The book also contains the rules of the new theory ,and in particular,for the first time, describes actually and correctly the collapse of the wave function just to consider here a problem that is=20 very distant from the cold fusion.No!,as said,I think that we have a new theory that actually generalizes the old theory and clears the possibility of physical processes,i.e. the cold fusion,that are out of the old theory. ; 4-The experiment.Please,notethat we are obtaining=20 preliminar documentation on experimental results confirming the biquaternion quantum mechanics. However,I strongly hope that the experiment reported in the file will be attempted by us and other experimen- tal groups since this is just the case in science in which only reproducible results will convince ourselves that the biquaternion quantum mechanics is a correct theory.Of Course,I should appreciate this particular course of execution!.Naturally,they are other systems of particles that may be conducted to the cold fusion, we are now discussing other interesting cases at theo- retical level as well as other versions of our first experiment may be exibited by us if in your interest.We have presented only a preliminar version with no high costs. There is another question.Let me consent to adfirm that your intuition to consider the experimental results of Kamada as a possible way of verification for biquater- nion quantum mechanics,seems to me a great intuition. I have thought over all this night,and I must appeal to you and to dr.Kamada so that this promising question can be maken deeper as due.I am at disposal for any collaboration. Finally,we have not at disposal in this moment a software different from microsoftworks,so,unfortunately,I cannot help you. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 07:28:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA12912 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA12881 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from delta.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA15066; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:01:37 +0100 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:01:37 +0100 Message-Id: <9601201501.AA15066@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to William Beaty X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr.William Beaty,in principle I think that it should not be prohibitory to detect the electrons as you indicate in your message.If necessary,we may elaborate=20 appropriate procedures.Sincerely.elio conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 11:14:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA06825 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA06811 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzje04983; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10554; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:44:25 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 370943100096020FEPRI; 20 Jan 1996 10:43:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Jan 1996 10:43:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: KansisCity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/20/96 10:43:08 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/19/96 20:23 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: KansisCity The reversal on the leads to the cell was done at the request of Mukubre during his visit in Oct. Ruined a set of beads in 5 minutes. Warning, don't do it yourself!!!! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 13:38:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA28468 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA28454 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzjp18849; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:19:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18368; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:16:27 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 045915130096020FEPRI; 20 Jan 1996 13:15:13 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Jan 1996 13:15:13 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: KansisCity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/20/96 13:15:58 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/20/96 11:13 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: KansisCity It's McKubre, too fast on the typing again.... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 23:10:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA11535 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA11525 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-7.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-7.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.7]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA03659 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 17:59:25 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601210659.RAA03659@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 18:01:34 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 17 Jan 96 at 18:17, William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > > > At first it was a nice blue color, then spontaneously it began to bubble and > > turn dark. > > Hey, brainstorm! > > If you heat palladium hydride to incandescence in a hard vacuum, does it > coat everything with pure palladium, or does the H+ stay with it and > simply form more palladium hydride? > > Someone mentioned that the CETI beads were vacuum plated. If so, and if Wouldn't a styrafoam bead explode in a vacuum? Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 03:59:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA06674 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 03:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA06668 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 03:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA20680; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:48:51 -0500 Date: 21 Jan 96 06:48:17 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: KansisCity Message-ID: <960121114816_100060.173_JHB38-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, >> The reversal on the leads to the cell was done at the request of Mukubre during his visit in Oct. Ruined a set of beads in 5 minutes. << It may be simplistic of me but does this also mean that only DC or pulsed DC and with no polarity reversal (AC) should be applied across this type of cell? I seem to remember that at some stage someone was trying to superimpose some AC component on top of the DC to try to jerk things into action. If the amplitude of the AC was high enough then it would damage the coating of the beads. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 06:09:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA26806 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA26797 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-189.austin.eden.com (net-1-189.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.189]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA04447 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:01:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:01:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601211401.IAA04447@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin said: >Wouldn't a styrafoam bead explode in a vacuum? Perhaps...depends on the cell wall strength. But we're not dealing with styroFOAM here...just styrene, a hard clear plastic. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 06:11:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA27450 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA27442 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-189.austin.eden.com (net-1-189.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.189]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA04512 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:04:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:04:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601211404.IAA04512@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: evaporated coatings X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I'm considering trying to evaporate some Ni and Pd onto beads. I've already got the necessary vacuum system. Can anyone suggest a quick and dirty method of monitoring/estimating the thickness of the deposit? The target thickness is 1 micron. I have a top-loading milligram balance but it's only good to +/- about 2 milligrams. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 06:14:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA27932 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA27914 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-189.austin.eden.com (net-1-189.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.189]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA04553 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:06:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:06:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601211406.IAA04553@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: ruined by reversal? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter, Can you speculate as to whether reversal of the current in a cell filled with plated beads could rapidly strip off the plating? Thanks From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 07:30:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA08211 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA08203 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:20:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA12516; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:20:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:20:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: evaporated coatings In-Reply-To: <199601211404.IAA04512@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > I'm considering trying to evaporate some Ni and Pd onto beads. I've already > got the necessary vacuum system. Can anyone suggest a quick and dirty > method of monitoring/estimating the thickness of the deposit? The target > thickness is 1 micron. I have a top-loading milligram balance but it's only > good to +/- about 2 milligrams. Perhaps place a glass slide where it will get the same coating as the beads, and monitor the coating thickness with some sort of optical densitometer. Maybe even run the light beam through from outside the vacuum. For calibration, you'd need to relate the dimming of the light to the thickness of the bead coating. Once you had the system running, you could coat several groups of beads to different test-thicknesses, then measure them with a razor blade and microscope. Can an optical microscope reliably measure a 1-micron coating? What are your thoughts on coating all sides of the beads? If you cover a tray with 1 layer of beads plus some empty area, then arrange the tray to slowly tilt back and forth or to vibrate, the beads will roll around and expose their uncoated faces. I wonder if you have to bake out any gas from the bead surfaces. Maybe let them sit in a vacuum for awhile at a temperature higher than 30C? The good old SciAm AMATEUR SCIENTIST column had a couple of articles about vacuum metallization for telescope mirrors. The SAS has a WWW index of all the articles, see the Amateur Science part of my web page for a link. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 12:21:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA13747 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13736 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0te68S-0005JxC; Sun, 21 Jan 96 14:13 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: vtx: Kink To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:13:08 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Akira Kawasaki sent me additional photos of the CETI PowerGen demo (thanks Akira!) There were several photo angles that revealed the return-to-cooling-tower valve assembly, which doubled as a flow rate sample outlet. There appears to be a kink in the common return hose, just upstream from sample outlet valve. If this kink went uncorrected, and if it represents a real flow restriction, it could potentially skew the flow rate while running versus the flow rate while a volume sample was being taken. As a personal note, I will be in Mexico on vacation for a week, leaving early Friday morning. My web page will be on autopilot. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 14:26:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA01143 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA01127 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id OAA11302; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:13:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:13:56 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: An invite from a Gravity researcher Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyone interested? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 14:49:25 +0300 From: Alexander V. Frolov To: billb@eskimo.com International Conference St.-Petersburg, Russia Dear Sirs, Local Organizing Commitee consisting of Chairman: Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences; Members: Dr. Anatoly A. Efimov, Russian Academy of Sciences; Dr. Jaroslav G. Klyushin Dr. Kirill P. Butusov Dr. Juri A. Zakoldajev, for Technics of Exploring; Ms. Alexandra A. Shpitalnaja Astronomical Observatory, Russian Academy of Sciences; Mr. Vladimir A. Fogel Association "SVETLANA"; Mr. Alexander V. Frolov, Academy of MegaSciences, Institute for Free Energy. INVITE YOU to take part in work of conference that will take place from 17 to 22 June, 1996, in St.-Petersburg, Russia. Next committees are planed: PHYSICS 1. Modern problems in physics. Theoretical reports. 2. New energetics, practical results. 3. Gravitation and overlapping technologies. 4. Development of Tesla's ideas. GEOLOGY 5-days Seminar "The ecological problems and geology" will take place in parallel with physics committee. Subjects of lectures ( invited 30 Russian speakers ) are devoted to next topics: electrogravitation, free energy, gyroscopes and anti-gravity reaction, inertial propulsion drives, control by rate of time, scalar electromagnetic interaction, magnetic vector potential interaction, longitudinal electromagnetic wave generation and detection, Mobius surface current effects, single-wire power transmission, heat pump, unipolar ( homopolar ) generator, torsion field. Special reports: Ivan S. Filimonenko, his cold fusion experiments from 1960 to present time; Boris V. Bolotov, transmutation of chemical elements, Vadim A. Shernobrov, experiments on control of rate of time, K.D. Shuckalov, electrogravitation experiments. Please, send the name of your report, your name and address for contacts, fax, email, and abstract by your report ( from 10 to 20 lines ) in FAX-address of organizing committee or by email to < alex@frolov.spb.ru > to prepare the programm of conference. We must make it before Febriary 15, 1996. Also, please send by post in address: Dr. Anatoly P. Smirnov, P.O.BOX 25, 195298, St.-Petersburg, Russia, complete text of your report ( up to 10 pages and 2 Figures ). Consideration of reports cannot be assured if received after April 1. We'll print book of all reports in English before conference for all speakers to help international discussion. The Forum will be held from 17 to 22 June, 1996. We are planing 5-days work, 10 AM - 3 PM sessions, workshops devoted experimental systems and devices will take place in the end of every day. June 22 is reserve day for work. Detailes on registration fee - USD 250 ( book of reports in English, simultaneous interpreting for lectures are included ), hotel ( single rooms are USD 63 per day ) and all organizing questions we'll inform you when we'll receive text of your report that means your desire to take part in Conference as Speaker. Best regards, Chairman Dr. Anatoly P. Smirnov FAX ___________________________________________________________________ --- Alexander V. Frolov P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia alex@frolov.spb.ru From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 15:07:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA10004 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA09992 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA15065; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 17:56:17 -0500 Date: 21 Jan 96 17:54:52 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry Message-ID: <960121225451_100060.173_JHB85-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin, >> Wouldn't a styrafoam bead explode in a vacuum? << Not if the "holes" are interconnected like a sponge. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 21:53:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA15402 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA15373 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA24165; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:39:30 -0500 Date: 22 Jan 96 00:36:19 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Message-ID: <960122053619_76570.2270_FHU77-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One of the things we covered at the Cambridge Mass conference on Saturday was a process which we have been studying. Jed Rothwell and Gene Mallove and I are under non-disclosure about it, but so is Hal Fox - and he discussed it with the proprietors (who I'll call "the Cincinnati Group"), and was able to outline publicly some information about their processes. So I was able to follow up and make further comment within the limits that Hal followed in his own presentation. There is obviously no need for me to remain quiet about the process on this mail-list, since I've already been up on my hind legs in public! What I cannot do is be specific about the materials used, except to say that the materials are quite extraordinarily specific and the chances that anybody could ever stumble on them by accident in any reasonable time approximate to zero. Also please note that Jed and Gene and I have inevitably become involved in a kind of consulting capacity to the Group. OK - so what's all the excitement? There are several (probably related) processes. Two of them are now being openly dicussed, at least in the sense that the effects are described. The first is a process which involves having two electrodes with a small gap separating them, mounted on a non-conducting substrate. What the substrate is doesn't matter very much, commonly it would be glazed tile or asbestos or some refractory. The metals are very specific indeed, but I can state that they are not metals like aluminium, or magnesium, ones which burn easily or give plenty of energy if they do. A material - again, this is not combustible - is introduced between the electrodes. An electrical current is passed between the electrodes (I can't really discuss the kind of signal this is, but it's nothing exciting like ultra-high frequency stuff) and a fireball appears. I can't say it is a plasma, I don't know what it is. But you need a welding helmet to work with it, and the whole place lights up blue. Like, hot, man. The tile promptly melts down with a glowing, bubbling area between the electrodes (which tend to melt back a bit). The power going in is maybe a few hundred watts, but can be throttled back at once to only a few tens of watts. The violent melting continues, the tile melts through in a minute or so. If a copper coin is dropped in, it melts at once. If a sheet of asbestos is introduced, it melts too. The process, once started, continues despite the fact that the 'starter' material must vanish almost at once. What is happening here? I have no idea. The Cincinnati Group (CG) were perfectly happy to send me materials to test the process back in England. I did so, I replicated with no trouble whatever, but I lacked some electrical equipment and couldn't afford it. When I came here I brought some of my gear and combined it with some of Gene's. That made it all much simpler, and I was able to show Jed Rothwell the process. His astonishment was a delight to behold. I was waving my melted tiles around at the conference. We haven't done any calorimetry yet - and without proper equipment in the UK I won't be doing that anyway. We are told that air-flow calorimetry shows gross over-unity at about 10:1 ratio, but I can't confirm this. What I can confirm is the specificity, the reproducibility and the startling performance of this process. With practice, the process can be maintained for as long as there is matter between the electrodes. I've seen that being done, but I've not kept it going for more than a couple of minutes myself. I would add that you need strong nerves, good goggles and adequate fire insurance for this trick. Sheesh, somebody wanted it run at the hotel but I thought this was a Bad Idea, so we went back to Gene's for a Tile Melting Party in his basement.... A second process involves liquids and metal electrodes. It is not electrolysis as such (at least, I don't see how it can be) and is claimed to be pretty exciting to watch - I've only seen it on videotape. The claim here is that a thorium solution is taken to the normal decay products of thorium in a few minutes, with the geiger readings falling as you watch, with analysis of the remaining material showing the decay products you would expect after - well, rather longer than a few minutes haha. Yeah, well. Except that one good Californian University department has replicated and confirmed this process - a process, I hasten to add, which I have no intention of Doing At Home. So, there you have it. Exciting, innit? God Only Knows what is going on. What I will say is this: 1. When we heard about this, we - ah - "viewed these claims with little enthusiasm". 2. CG are not sophisticates. They are appear to be "good ol' country boys" and they play up to that image. But in fact they seem to be of considerable native intelligence. They also asked Jed for a copy of his list of symptoms of "Inventors' Syndrome". They say that they want to put this on their wall so that they can check one another out for any developing signs of this pernicious disease. They laugh a lot, they are very likeable people. 3. They paid for Gene to fly out there a few weeks ago to see their work. This is unusual behaviour. 4. They were happy - with non disclosure forms signed - to mail me and Gene a full set of materials, and help with advice on how to do the experiment. 5. They are interested in commercialising, they want the money for some quite different purpose. They appear to have no desire to 'control the strategy', or to do any of the bone-headed things which some other people want to do in analogous situations. I get the impression that this is seen by them entirely as a means to the end of making money and then spending it on what they want to spend it on. Well, there are a LOT of stories we hear. We try to be willing to listen, but we sometimes find it difficult. That happened this time, but here we have these refreshingly open and cheerful people, who are unashamedly in it for the money; people whose totally whacky claims seem steadily to be becoming vindicated by straightforward replication. So, think what you like. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 23:07:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA26632 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA26608 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id BAA19401; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:54:41 -0500 Date: 22 Jan 96 01:34:58 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Latest from Griggs Message-ID: <960122063458_76570.2270_FHU52-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I should have said in my last message (about the "Cincinnati Group") that this is Chris Tinsley here in Darkest New Hampshire, using Gene's Power Mac and all these terrible meeces and windows and suchlike that are designed to confuse and distress any curmudgeonly ol' hacker like yours truly. Just a brief word about Jim Griggs' Hydrosonic Pump. He told us at the meeting that he has got a contract (he waved it around) with Huntsville NASA Engines Group (?) to test his machine. This will include full energy balance tests, to be done during the coming months. He also reported that Hydrodynamics have managed to build a transparent version, and that the water turns blue when the effect comes in. He refused to be drawn on whether this is blue colour or blue light. He says that they are now convinced that the effect is within the water itself, and is related to the collapse of tiny bubbles therein. He says that business is good, and plenty of sales are being made. He says that they are selling the thing as a heater, a water purifier - stuff like that. Apparently one advantage is that the process rips apart any microbes or virus which are stupid enough to try to make it through the 'pump'. He made a damned good presentation. So did Hal Fox. And Jed did a powerful job on CETI - warts and all. Gene Mallove's overview of the field was excellent, and I provided the lowlife comic relief. Actually, all the other presentations were excellent, I was amazed at the quality. Natch, we had the whole thing professionally videotaped, and we are selling the full 8-hour set for $99.95 (hint, advertisement, plug). Longer than Star Wars, funnier than Schindler's List, more up-to-date than Gone With The Wind. Not to be missed, a steal at the price. (Is that OK, Gene?) Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 23:13:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA27678 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA27661 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA12948; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:58:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:58:35 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" In-Reply-To: <960122053619_76570.2270_FHU77-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 Jan 1996, Eugene Mallove wrote: > One of the things we covered at the Cambridge Mass conference on Saturday was > a process which we have been studying. Jed Rothwell and Gene Mallove and I > are under non-disclosure about it, but so is Hal Fox - and he discussed it > with the proprietors (who I'll call "the Cincinnati Group"), and was able to > outline publicly some information about their processes. So I was able to > follow up and make further comment within the limits that Hal followed in his > own presentation. There is obviously no need for me to remain quiet about the > process on this mail-list, since I've already been up on my hind legs in > public! What I cannot do is be specific about the materials used, except to > say that the materials are quite extraordinarily specific and the chances that > anybody could ever stumble on them by accident in any reasonable time > approximate to zero. Also please note that Jed and Gene and I have inevitably Are you implying then that they used some sort of new, souped-up theory to arrive at the choice of these special materials? Charles From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 23:25:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA29780 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA29757 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0teGRr-0005VhC; Mon, 22 Jan 96 01:13 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:13:51 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960122053619_76570.2270_FHU77-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Eugene Mallove" at Jan 22, 96 00:36:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris (Tinsley, I presume) writes: > There are several (probably related) processes. Two of them are now being > openly dicussed, at least in the sense that the effects are described. > The first is a process which involves having two electrodes with a small gap > separating them, mounted on a non-conducting substrate. > The metals are very specific indeed, but I can state that they > are not metals like aluminium, or magnesium, ones which burn easily or give > plenty of energy if they do. A material - again, this is not combustible - > is introduced between the electrodes. > [the second] a thorium solution is taken to the normal decay products of > thorium in a few minutes, with the geiger readings falling as you watch This all sounds like good old TIG welding (tungsten inert gas). I believe the electrodes of preference are thoriated tungsten. Thorium also used to be used in Coleman lantern mantles (though they have been replaced in recent years by non-radioactive versions.) Thorium has a chemical property, unrelated to its radioactive property, that allows it to radiate brilliant white light -- apparently an efficient thermal energy to photon converter. TIG welding units typically maintain a superimposed HF high voltage potential, usually using spark-gap oscillators. This pilot spark ionizes the air between the tungsten electrode and the grounded metal work piece. This allows the lower voltage high current welding power to flow and create welding heat by I*I*R joule heating in the gap. TIG units are generally more expensive than other welding units (such as MIG and "stick" welders) -- on the order of $2500 US for the smaller units. Anyhow, giving my imagination free reign, I speculate that these "good old boys" probably stumbled onto some effect occuring while welding with TIG welding equipment -- that the second method also uses thorium clues us that the first method might also use thorium as the starting material in the gap between tungsten or thoriated tungsten electrodes. Or maybe not. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 00:46:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA09747 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:32:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA09742 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA05869; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:32:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:32:09 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: evaporated coatings In-Reply-To: <199601211404.IAA04512@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > I'm considering trying to evaporate some Ni and Pd onto beads. I've already > got the necessary vacuum system. Can anyone suggest a quick and dirty > method of monitoring/estimating the thickness of the deposit? The target > thickness is 1 micron. I have a top-loading milligram balance but it's only > good to +/- about 2 milligrams. I wouldn't be surpsied if John Logajan got in there before me, but here is my rough calculation and a suggestion. Assume each bead to have a radius of 1 mm and a density of about 1 mg/mm^3 (i.e. 1 g/cm^3). That makes it about 4 mg per bead. If we take the deposited metal's density to be 10 mg/mm^3 (Ni is a bit below, Pd a bit above that), a coating of 1 mu thickness would weigh 0.13 mg, so the bead would go from 4.00 to 4.13 mg upon coating. The way I'd do it is, after establishing a reproducible way of vacuum depositing metal evenly all round the beads, I would do this for some measured time and weigh 100 beads before and after. 100 beads would go from 400 to 413 mg upon coating, and you'd get about 20% precision on your measure. If you don't like that, count more beads each time. You might also want to start with checking the mass distribution of the beads, make sure that each lot of 100 weighs about the same. Having done this a couple of times, you'll know the length of time needed for the coating thickness you want. Come to think of it, if you can make sure you don't lose any beads, you could use as many as you like, count them only once and just weigh the lot each time, getting more precision. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 01:10:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA12222 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA12217 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:59:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:59:38 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: An invite from a Gravity researcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Will papers from your conference be previewed in this forum? This would certainly encourage attendance. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 01:26:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA10610 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:40:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA10596 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA05957; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:40:23 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:40:23 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ruined by reversal? In-Reply-To: <199601211406.IAA04553@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Dieter, > > Can you speculate as to whether reversal of the current in a cell filled > with plated beads could rapidly strip off the plating? I'm not sure what's on top, Ni or Pd. Ni would certainly start to dissolve as soon as you polarise it anodically. Pd would first oxidise but it wouldn't last long. These layers are pretty thin. Ni would produce a green solution. All this would of course depend on the potential applied; I keep thinking people use constant current as F&P do. Remember, too, that these layers are not hermetic seals, they have pores. So even if Pd is on top, some Ni would dissolve, and the whole schlemozzle might peel off anyway. I'd make sure to prevent anodic polarisation. Even an oxide film would not be good news, you might reduce it again when you go cathodic, but the surface would likely be roughed up. I tried this with gold once, swinging between anodic and cathodic (the boss had an idea we could make peroxide that way), and there was a shower of brown oxide leaves dropping from the gold. When people use pulsed current, they don't normally reverse polarity, they use a high current/low current regime. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 01:32:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA14256 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA14247 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:23:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:23:18 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Latest from Griggs In-Reply-To: <960122063458_76570.2270_FHU52-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You'd probably make more money on the tapes if they were priced like a starwars video. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 04:20:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA25141 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA25112 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-61.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-61.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.61]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA26861 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:05:31 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601221205.XAA26861@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:07:17 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: if it stinks, it's chemistry Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 21 Jan 96 at 8:01, Scott Little wrote: > Robin said: > > >Wouldn't a styrafoam bead explode in a vacuum? > > Perhaps...depends on the cell wall strength. But we're not dealing with > styroFOAM here...just styrene, a hard clear plastic. Sorry, my mistake. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 06:21:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA05715 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA05708 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA14495; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:01:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:01:10 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: An invite from a Gravity researcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Tony Rusi wrote: > Will papers from your conference be previewed in this forum? This would > certainly encourage attendance. > Dr Frolov isn't on vortex-L. He had to go off email a couple of months ago (too expensive? I never heard why.) But interested parties could try to contact him via the email addr on the message. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 09:22:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA04070 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA04054 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p0.aa.net (s3c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.132]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07212 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:01:50 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601221701.JAA07212@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:01:21 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:13 AM 1/22/96 -0600, you wrote: >Chris (Tinsley, I presume) writes: >> There are several (probably related) processes. Two of them are now being >> openly dicussed, at least in the sense that the effects are described. > >> The first is a process which involves having two electrodes with a small gap >> separating them, mounted on a non-conducting substrate. >> The metals are very specific indeed, but I can state that they >> are not metals like aluminium, or magnesium, ones which burn easily or give >> plenty of energy if they do. A material - again, this is not combustible - >> is introduced between the electrodes. > >> [the second] a thorium solution is taken to the normal decay products of >> thorium in a few minutes, with the geiger readings falling as you watch > >This all sounds like good old TIG welding (tungsten inert gas). I believe >the electrodes of preference are thoriated tungsten. Thorium also used to >be used in Coleman lantern mantles (though they have been replaced in >recent years by non-radioactive versions.) Thorium has a chemical property, >unrelated to its radioactive property, that allows it to radiate brilliant >white light -- apparently an efficient thermal energy to photon converter. > >TIG welding units typically maintain a superimposed HF high voltage potential, >usually using spark-gap oscillators. This pilot spark ionizes the air between >the tungsten electrode and the grounded metal work piece. This allows the >lower voltage high current welding power to flow and create welding heat >by I*I*R joule heating in the gap. TIG units are generally more expensive >than other welding units (such as MIG and "stick" welders) -- on the order >of $2500 US for the smaller units. > >Anyhow, giving my imagination free reign, I speculate that these "good old >boys" probably stumbled onto some effect occuring while welding with >TIG welding equipment -- that the second method also uses thorium clues >us that the first method might also use thorium as the starting material >in the gap between tungsten or thoriated tungsten electrodes. > >Or maybe not. :-) > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > Pretty decent guess, John, and my guess is that they are in their way finding what I found out about the mutability of radioactivity. Hear this, CHRIS AND GENE, we are circling your wagons and you will become believers, the mass flux of electromotive force changes the structure of the atom sufficiently and unpredictably enough to cause quantum theories to become decidly quaint museum pieces. Keller found it, Barker found it, I confirmed them, Brown claimed it with his Brown's Gas, so called, now these guys are popping up!!!! And DIETER: are you a betting man? If so, I'll place serious money on the table. The thing is this: in combustion theory, people think chemically and in terms of compositional "receipe" equations..liberating heat. Wrong. Heat is a tertiary waste by-product and should be of very little interest. All combustion is the ELECTRONIC rearrangement of the elements into new organizations. There are tremendous fluxes of local energy involved, most of which are re-absorbed, except in the case of explosions. It is these local fluxes of energy which do the trick. At the instanteous moment of total fluidity, total instability of the parameters, the Wei-Lu master dances...those who are lucky find hints that the so-called atom is something other than what the academically established theories claim to have defined. What I really like about this "mutability" of radioactivity is that it goes to the very heart of 20th century physics/chmemistry. The phenomenon reveals that the field is fundamentally incomplete, that fundamental structural/dynamic maxims are really up in the air for revisiting. This is the same rabbit "hole" that cold fusion and other magicians of the morning are popping out of. What I dislike about the phenomenon is that there is no obvious pay-off for individual researchers, except possible minor fame somewhere near the end of the next century, also that it takes very sophisticated methods and measurements tooling to explore for defining principles, and that no one wants to work with radioactive substances, myself included. I guess for the time being, it really is enough to know that ACADEMIC NUCLEAR PHYSICS is DEAD! That leaves the mind free to explore these rabbit hole phenomemon without feeling guilty of being foolish enough to believe in the tooth fairy or the Mad Hatter. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 10:14:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA12785 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA12767 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA25000 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:43:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601221743.MAA25000@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:57:17 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Dr. Conte's paper .txt Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty wrote: > >Look at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html for versions of Dr. >Conte's paper in .txt and windows .wri formats. > Hmmm... I tried to download the .wri format but my browser just displays it as if it was ascii text. It doesn't start Windows Write the way it is setup to do, nor does it give me a chance to save it. I was hoping that it might have retained more of the formatting (such as super and subscripts, etc.). Is there some way I can force the browser to copy it as a file or can I ftp it somehow? >... >If slow neutrons are forming in CF electrodes, wouldn't there be >detectable betas from their decay, or can't the particles get past the >metal and water? No they would likely not be directly detectable in this way. Too low energy, too much other material around. > >Hmm. If ambient antineutrinos are required for Conte's fusion to proceed, >then perhaps the proximity of a manmade neutrino source will affect a CF >cell. Did you find this notion somewhere in what Conte wrote? I don't recall any mention of antineutrinos being required. > And perhaps hydrogen<=>neutron effects play a part in many other >unexpected nuclear/chemical reactions besides CF electrochemistry. Could >the micro-environment around H in a chemical reaction sometimes lead to >this type of neutron production? Yes, this is possible. . What kind of energy do the resulting >free neutrons need before they will interact with a passing nucleus, and >allow Conte's neutron production to cause all sorts of transmutations? Thermal (i.e. with energies similar to the motions of the constituent atoms of the material) neutrons will interact quite easily with most neuclei. Each isotope has its own particular propensity for such interactions called its thermal neutron inelastic cross-section. > >But why would the formation and decay of neutrons cause overall energy >release in CF electrodes? According to Conte, the p+e->n reaction provides about 70 KeV energy (as low energy gamma?). The neutron (n) will get some small part of this energy as kinetic energy. > Would the escaping neutrons not transport >energy away from the electrode, then release it elsewhere? The neutrons are quite unlikely to escape. > I recall a >SciAm article about cold neutrons. Apparantly they totally reflect from >copper, so a thick copper evacuated vessel can act as a bottle, and be >filled with a cloud of bouncing neutrons by directing a neutron beam >through heavy filtering and into the bottle. These are not ultra cold neutrons that we are talking about, but yes neutrons (as waves) do undergo reflection and refraction in their interaction with the metal lattice in addition to inelastic fusion and fission interactions. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 10:25:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA15325 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15314 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzqm18290; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23407; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:06:55 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 712606100096022FEPRI; 22 Jan 1996 10:06:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 22 Jan 1996 10:06:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/22/96 10:06:25 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/21/96 21:52 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Dr. Richard Oriani has a high temperature/Seebeck effect calorimeter. He has SS vessels, pipes, pumps, etc. to run something at above 300 degrees C. If your "good old boys" want to prove an "OU", they should contact him. Let me know. MDH (Oriani = Mpls, MN) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 10:39:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17168 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17129 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA16298; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:14:48 -0500 Date: 22 Jan 96 13:09:48 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Message-ID: <960122180948_76570.2270_FHU37-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A [Chris Tinsley using Gene Mallove's email address] At the risk of playing "20 Questions", I would comment that John Logajan - despite his remarkably imaginative ideas - is totally and completely off base. I would never play with thorium, I'll just stick to my daily diet of three gas mantles per day (after food). You want I should get my coward's licence revoked? Anyway - knowing how thorium would behave if you struck an arc - I'd expect weird-*looking* things to happen if I played with that. I happen to think this doesn't just *look* weird, it *is* weird. Bubbling, molten, white hot pools of ceramic with <100W? Naah. I'll suggest that the bubbling is probably only from the burning wood support under the puddle, I'm not suggesting the ceramic is boiling! As for Mike Mandeville's comments, well - that's not any of my concern. I just tell it like I see it. I think I'll call in on Anchor Surplus back home in Nardeenghairm and see if they've got any heavy duty electrical stuff going cheap. Or even cheep. I reckon I could do some crude, conservative calorimetry just by melting tiles and dumping them in a bucket of water afterwards. Trouble with all this is that the thermal and light radiation from this thing is so intense that there must be a lot of energy loss. Maybe all you clever people out there could make suggestions. Note that this isn't an electric arc. At least, if it is it sho 'nuff don' look like it none. The fun bit was the sight of Jed Rothwell when I did the demo. He was doing this "inscrutable" thing he has picked up in the Mystic Orient, but when it started up he jumped a foot in the air and came down squawking like a chicken. Deeply satisfying, that was. Pity I couldn't see him properly, the afterimages from the fireball are a bit tiresome. "Weird Science" is fun, innit? Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 11:17:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA24838 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24818 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0teRNM-0004xyC; Mon, 22 Jan 96 12:53 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:53:56 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960122180948_76570.2270_FHU37-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Eugene Mallove" at Jan 22, 96 01:09:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley writes: > At the risk of playing "20 Questions", I would comment that John Logajan - > despite his remarkably imaginative ideas - is totally and completely off base. I was pitching from left field. :-) Found out, though, that both tungsten and thorium have oxides (their natural mineral states) and so both can "burn" if not protected from oxygen. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 11:38:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA27424 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA27383 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0teRZw-00054XC; Mon, 22 Jan 96 13:06 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:06:56 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960122180948_76570.2270_FHU37-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Eugene Mallove" at Jan 22, 96 01:09:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley writes: > calorimetry just by melting tiles and dumping them in a bucket of water > afterwards. Trouble with all this is that the thermal and light radiation > from this thing is so intense that there must be a lot of energy loss. Maybe > all you clever people out there could make suggestions. Just put the thing in a small opaque enclosure. Then dump the whole mess into the bucket of water. The amout of escape will be minimal. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 11:41:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA27735 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA27718 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c0p0.aa.net (s1c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.164]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA13757 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:07:13 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601221907.LAA13757@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:06:49 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: An invite from a Gravity researcher Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:01 AM 1/22/96 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Tony Rusi wrote: > >> Will papers from your conference be previewed in this forum? This would >> certainly encourage attendance. >> > >Dr Frolov isn't on vortex-L. He had to go off email a couple of months >ago (too expensive? I never heard why.) But interested parties could >try to contact him via the email addr on the message. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > typically Russians pay by the kilobyte for their email downloads. on their budgets, even the vortex load gets pretty expensive. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 12:24:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA06069 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05987 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA10190; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:49:13 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601221949.AA10190@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: KansisCity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:49:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <199601200411.AA13720@power.gpu.com> from "FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser" at Jan 19, 96 11:10:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank writes: > > > -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 > John Barron (technical director) and I talked with Charles J Ross of > Kansas City Power and Light. They have a 10 watt cell there with a > 20 to 1 energy gain. Charles has one of his engineers building a > pressure vessel. They plan to try the device at 400 PSIG. I don't > know what they can prove with a little 10 watt cell. He tells me > he reversed the leads on the cell once and that ruined the beads and > produced a glob of sludge in the process. Kansas City has hired Dr. > Quinton Bowles to perform some testing. I also talked with Quniton. > He is skeptical. The group is looking for evidence of a nuclear > reaction. > Does this mean that all the CETI cells that have got such fanstastic gains have been made with flowing electrolyte calorimetry? Now I'm really worried about CETI. The tests we would have made at EarthTech would have cleared up this point. We should have been doing them now! I was going to do Proton Induced X-ray Emmission to measure the elemental abundances in the beads but that's off too. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 12:54:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA13213 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13131 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA11165; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:25:30 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601222025.AA11165@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: ruined by reversal? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:25:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199601211406.IAA04553@natashya.eden.com> from "Scott Little" at Jan 21, 96 08:06:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Can you speculate as to whether reversal of the current in a cell filled > with plated beads could rapidly strip off the plating? > Dennis Cravens told me that McKubre destroyed a cell be reversing the polarity. Martin From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 13:19:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA17250 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA17133 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from omicron.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA22052; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:47:03 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:47:03 +0100 Message-Id: <9601222047.AA22052@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to William Bety X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr.W.Bety,excuse me for my little answer to your previous=20 message,but.strangely,I read only a part of your message and I answered only to it. I see now that Bill Page has exposed in detail the questions that you raised except for the problem of the neutrino. So,I allow myself to try to clear this point.When in biquaternion quantum mechanics we calculate the compressed hydrogen atom we have the correct rest energy of the neutron,the mean life of n,the=20 correct charge radius,the correct total angular momentum,the correct zero total charge ,the "anomalous magnetic moment,the null dipole electric moment,and the space and charge parities.We have also shown ,but we have not reported it for brevity in the file,the spontaneous decay of the neutron: n----> p + e + ni signed (antineutrino) of e This calculation requires several pages,and it at the moment is not still included in the file.We may only anticipate here that,since they= are,finally, well known the kinds of interactions (I have discussed in detail this point in my previous messages)the spontaneous decay becomes a kind of=20 so called "tunneel effect" (that is well Known in quantum mechanics) of the CONSTITUENTS of the system through the barriers indicated by the "proper" hamiltonian just identified.The emergence of the=20 antineutrino is due during the electron,existing into the interior medium of the proton (as we have explained in the previous messages),and reacquiring the usual characteristics of the USUAL electron when it moves in vacuum ,i.e.,under the influence of conventional interactions, i.e. electromagnetic ones.Obviously,we have=20 e-(inside the p) ---> e- (when it has its normal characteristics in vacuum) + ni signed (antineutrino) and e+(inside...)----> e+ (...... in vacuum) + ni (neutrino) Finally,I must remember what I have said in my previous message: Einstein's Special Realtivity is only approximately valid in the interior of the proton,for this medium we have,instead,modified invariants whose general forms were give in the file. Concerning the technical problems connected to the observations of experiments performed in the past:I agree that often they are very=20 difficult to be observed,however,if the experimentalists agree ,we may force to identify suitable and appropriate solutions.Finally,thinking more and more about,I go concluding that the results of Kamada et al.(the anomalous effects that were identified)just were due to the cold fusion of p and e in n. Sincerely.Elio Conte = =20 . --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 13:57:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA24209 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA24099 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11020 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:21:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id QAA21452; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:21:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:21:29 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601222121.QAA21452@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: (jlogajan@skypoint.com) Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan (jlogajan@skypoint.com) said: > This all sounds like good old TIG welding (tungsten inert gas). I > believe the electrodes of preference are thoriated tungsten. The reason for using thoriated tungsten is that the natural radioactivity of the thorium provides a few ions around the electrode. When trying to establish an arc, these ions start an avalanche. We had a few hilarious incidents where GE used depleted thorium in elctrodes in pulsed Xenon lamps. Keep them in the dark for a few hours, and the lamps will not light... > Thorium also used to be used in Coleman lantern mantles (though > they have been replaced in recent years by non-radioactive > versions.) Thorium has a chemical property, unrelated to its > radioactive property, that allows it to radiate brilliant white > light -- apparently an efficient thermal energy to photon > converter. Yep, but just an spectrum heavy in visible emission lines. Cesium is also good. You need a metal with a strong oxide, and a good color balance. (I think the current mantles of choice use a rare earth mix.) > TIG welding units typically maintain a superimposed HF high > voltage potential, usually using spark-gap oscillators. This pilot > spark ionizes the air between the tungsten electrode and the > grounded metal work piece. This allows the lower voltage high > current welding power to flow and create welding heat by I*I*R > joule heating in the gap. TIG units are generally more expensive > than other welding units (such as MIG and "stick" welders) -- on > the order of $2500 US for the smaller units. Yes, the problem with TIG welding is that the blowing gas can "blow out" the arc. (Remember ye old Jacob's Ladder? The arc gets too long and goes out. The spark coil reignites it.) > Anyhow, giving my imagination free reign, I speculate that these > "good old boys" probably stumbled onto some effect occuring while > welding with TIG welding equipment -- that the second method also > uses thorium clues us that the first method might also use thorium > as the starting material in the gap between tungsten or thoriated > tungsten electrodes. They could be doing magic tricks using the pinch effect from the arc. (The core of even a modest arc plasma has an effective temperature in the 10,000 degree K and up region.) If that is the case, you have to redefine your definition of combustable. Iron burning arcs are so common that safecrackers have a name for them. You can also extract energy from "burning" oxides and sand to form silicates. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 15:29:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA13509 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13490 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA26238; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:54:56 -0500 Date: 22 Jan 96 17:47:45 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment Message-ID: <960122224744_72240.1256_EHB59-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To: Vortex Dear Fellow Vortexians, I am back from Boston and plenty busy. We had a cold snap, Atlanta was even colder than Boston! Up in New England they had severe weather with winds gusting up to 60 mph. A tug boat and barge went out of control, ran aground, and spilled 828,000 gallons of heating oil into the waters off of a pristine marine wildlife reserve on the coast of Rhode Island. It has killed at least 11,000 lobsters and it threatens 75,000 birds, including rare harlequin ducks. My daughter Naomi happens to be writing a report on oil spills for a high school science project. She has experiments set up in her room where she is mopping up 3-in-1 oil with ground corn cobs, frozen ground-up double-bubble chewing gum, talcum powder and various other things recommended in the literature. She had just finished typing her conclusion: "As long as mankind uses oil for energy, we will have oil spills" when the news broke. I did not need to tell her that I work full-time to promote cold fusion so that we can eliminate these tragedies forever. Events like this give us a sense of purpose, and a sense of urgency. The symposium went well, I thought. I see Chris, disguised as Gene, has briefed the readers here already. The day before it I had an long discussion with Reding, the president of CETI. It was, in the language of diplomacy, polite but frank. I am sorry to report that he and I are still deeply at odds about the best way to present the CETI results to the public and the scientific community. It is his business. I have no say in the matter, but during the symposium I took CETI to task for what I perceive as an inept and self-destructive public relations strategy. My comments will be published in the next issue of Infinite Energy. I have some comments about the Cincinnati group experiments, which we have been following for some time. I am glad that we are finally free to discuss this. I shall urge the principles to allow even more information. (That's what I do -- I try to get people to release information that would be of enormous benefit to them if they would release it. My work is kind of like pulling teeth from patients without novocaine.) This afternoon I made a splendid close-up electronic photo of three tile fragments, showing the damage from the tile melt experiment. I made this image by putting the fragments directly on the scanner (carefully, to avoid scratching the glass). It came out splendidly. Much better than scanning a photograph. I have converted it to UUENCODE GIF format, in a file 97,630 bytes long. The original TIF file looks a lot better but it is 398,892 bytes long. I can e-mail the shorter one to anyone who is interested. I do not think it would be a good idea to post it on the World Wide Web just yet. Let us find out just how open these people consent to be, and let us write some more background information and a better description first. When the reaction occurs, the tile heats up, burns (or melts, I do not know), and splits into fragments. The tile fragment at the top of the image is face up, showing the side where the electrodes were placed. The other two fragments are face down, showing where the bottom of the tile was scorched. This burn was less than one minute. As Chris says, we did no calorimetry, but I can easily believe the reported results of over-unity. We were told that an independent test was performed by an air conditioning manufacturer with air flow calorimetry, with a 100 CFM fan. The test showed that output is at least 10 times input. Chris and I input approximately 600 watts, which was more than we needed, but it takes practice to reduce the input. 600 watts is roughly as much heat as you get from two or three soldering irons I think, but this reaction is spread out over an area much larger than two soldering iron tips. It is not tightly focussed like a soldering iron or a laser. If you were to hold two soldering irons against a tile for less than a minute, they would never do this much damage. I do not think it would be possible to test this in a Seebeck calorimeter like the one Oriani uses. My guess is that you would destroy the calorimeter in no time flat. The temperature of the reaction must be in the thousands of degrees centigrade. This, by the way, will be no impediment to making heat engines. That fact has already been established. I hate to play 20 questions, but some demonstrations I observed were in the absence of air, so this is not a combustion reaction. The chemicals are in the ground state and they contain no oxidizers (like rocket fuel does). They cannot burn. I checked that with the chemical supply house. We tried using a variety of substitute materials, including some with closely similar chemical formulas. We got no reaction. The difference between no reaction and the anomalous reaction is quite pronounced. The light goes from a mild orange sparking (just what you would expect) to a blinding white accompanied by a terrific noise. Chris has made a great deal over the fact that I jumped a foot, but this observation of his does not prove much. I am a timid Thurberesque fellow, prone to jumping a foot when things go bump in the night. On the other hand I dearly love firecrackers, Roman candles and Fourth of July fireworks displays, and this was by far the best fireworks I have ever seen in tabletop display mode. By the way, speaking of table tops, I suggest you spread a good think piece of plywood over your table before attempting this, because it severely scorches whatever is under the tile. Again, I cannot imagine how a 600 watt heat source could do that much damage in such a short time. I note that in one case the burning table top fire ignited by the reaction was extinguished by pouring some of the electrolyte solution on a mass of burning wood and a glowing molten tile. This is more proof that that the stuff does not burn, at moderate temperatures anyway. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 18:19:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA18610 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA18566 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA01620; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:53:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:53:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment In-Reply-To: <960122224744_72240.1256_EHB59-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 Jan 1996, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I have some comments about the Cincinnati group experiments, which we have > been following for some time. I am glad that we are finally free to discuss > this. I shall urge the principles to allow even more information. (That's what > I do -- I try to get people to release information that would be of enormous > benefit to them if they would release it. My work is kind of like pulling > teeth from patients without novocaine.) Ever heard this one ? (regarding scientific progress): "Secrecy keeps out much more than it keeps in." ... > The test showed that output is at least > 10 times input. Chris and I input approximately 600 watts, which was more than > we needed, but it takes practice to reduce the input. 600 watts is roughly as > much heat as you get from two or three soldering irons I think, but this > reaction is spread out over an area much larger than two soldering iron tips. > It is not tightly focussed like a soldering iron or a laser. If you were to > hold two soldering irons against a tile for less than a minute, they would > never do this much damage. When light is involved, I always end up thinking in terms of lightbulb filaments. A filament rated for 600W might be a couple of inches long. If it were threaded in and out of the incandescent area on the tile, would it be expected to give out as much light? > I hate to play 20 questions, but some demonstrations I observed were in the > absence of air, so this is not a combustion reaction. The chemicals are in the > ground state and they contain no oxidizers (like rocket fuel does). They > cannot burn. Great news! I won't ask anything about the secret parts, but can't help making an observation: if one of the elements in the mix is hydrogen, and if the electrodes are titanium, platinum, etc., maybe this device isn't so different from certain other overunity electrochemical effects we know and love. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 20:28:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA09418 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 19:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA09408 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 19:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0teZrX-0005W7C; Mon, 22 Jan 96 21:57 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:57:39 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960122224744_72240.1256_EHB59-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 22, 96 05:47:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > I do not think it would be a good idea to post it on the World Wide Web > just yet. Actually, we could still put it on the web, but not publicly announce the URL. For instance, http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan/test.html would not normally be known to anyone unless they made a habit of checking every web subdirectory level (there are millions of them.) It would be essentially secret. > I hate to play 20 questions, but some demonstrations I observed were in the > absence of air, so this is not a combustion reaction. The chemicals are in the > ground state and they contain no oxidizers (like rocket fuel does). They > cannot burn. I'm jabbering on about this because I'm only allowed to feel the tail of the elephant, and so I'd describe him as a rope ... But, consider "thermite" which is a mixture of metals and rust. It burns so darn hot (with no need for external oxygen) that they use it for welding and melting. Now you seem to have a vast supply of oxygen in the tiles (a lot of silicon oxides I'd guess.) And you have great heat to liberate the oxygen. Possibly a thermite like reaction? I dunno, but don't underestimate the energy density of a thermite-like reaction. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 00:14:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA15157 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA15144; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:51:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:51:53 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: Michael Mandeville cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" In-Reply-To: <199601221701.JAA07212@big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Was that a reference to "The dancing Wu Li Masters" by Zukav and "Morning of the Magicians" by Pauwels and Bergier? In the latter, these french underground operatives claim an alchemist told them that explosive power equal to nuclear weapons could be made with materials from any kitchen. Anyone care to speculate on these possibilities? Also one of my students who listens to KZOK told me the DJ's on there claim that the government is turning baseballs to energy and transporting the energy to distant locations and reassembling the energy into its original material form. He was positive that this was not a ruse. Can anyone verify this? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 00:38:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA12859 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA12661 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA09115; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:24:00 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601222024.AA09115@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Kink To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:23:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: from "John Logajan" at Jan 21, 96 02:13:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Akira Kawasaki sent me additional photos of the CETI PowerGen demo > (thanks Akira!) There were several photo angles that revealed the > return-to-cooling-tower valve assembly, which doubled as a flow > rate sample outlet. > > There appears to be a kink in the common return hose, just upstream > from sample outlet valve. If this kink went uncorrected, and if it > represents a real flow restriction, it could potentially skew the > flow rate while running versus the flow rate while a volume sample > was being taken. > > AH HAH! That would explain a lot. Can you put the new photos on your web site? Have fun in Mexico. Martin From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 00:39:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA10906 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA10885 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA27444; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:14:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:14:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: melted ceramic In-Reply-To: <960122180948_76570.2270_FHU37-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 22 Jan 1996, Chris Tinsley using Gene Mallove's email address ... > afterwards. Trouble with all this is that the thermal and light radiation > from this thing is so intense that there must be a lot of energy loss. Maybe > all you clever people out there could make suggestions. Note that this isn't > an electric arc. At least, if it is it sho 'nuff don' look like it none. This sounds quite alot like the classic "glass conductor" demonstration: wrap a pair of wires a couple of inches apart on a glass rod, plug the wires into 120VAC, and nothing happens because glass is an insulator. But if you then use a gas torch to heat the part of the rod between the wires to red heat, the ions in the glass become mobile, the glass turns conductive, heats to incandescence, and melts in half, possibly blowing breakers along the way. The incandescent pool of ceramic is almost certainly behaving as an electrolyte, with attendant electrochemistry happening at the metal plates. Hey, if the Cincinnati device uses DC, there's the off chance that two dissimilar metals could be used as the electrode plates, forming a battery, and making the reaction sustain itself when the power supply is removed and the connecting wires are shorted together. Nah, it would be incredibly lucky if this worked. I could see that the "overunity" might be coming from some sort of electrochemical combustion effect. Even if the electrodes don't burn down, the ceramic might be acting as fuel for an electrically initiated fire. How long did they run the device? I wonder if they've let it go for long enough to make sure the ceramic wasn't being consumed. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 06:01:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA23169 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 05:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA23150 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 05:38:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA10203 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:37:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199601231337.AA10203@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:37:04 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com To: 70367.3461@compuserve.com Subject: vtx: Your ZPE work Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 08:36:23 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Thank you Howard, I glad you liked my work. I think I done something unique. Puthoff's work is similar to mine. We agree in that we both believe there is a connection between gravity and the zero point state. We differ in that Hal employs a cubic frequency distribution ether. I do not. Get my disk from bill B at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb Pick Weird for sale -> 70367.3461@COMPUSERVE.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: 23 Jan 96 04:59:10 EST From: Howard Davis <70367.3461@compuserve.com> To: Frank Znidarsic Subject: Your ZPE work Dear Frank, I read with great interest two papers you put out on the net in '95 (think it was either Keelynet or the "elektromagnum" home page). Was wondering whether you have since made further advances, theoretical or otherwise, and whether any more of your work is obtainable on-line. Also, what is your opinion of Puthoff's theories on the subject, and how consistent are they with your model? Thanks very much, Howard Davis PS Bill B has a lot more posted at his web site. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 06:11:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA23048 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 05:37:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA23032 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 05:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA08314; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:36:20 -0500 Date: 23 Jan 96 08:34:42 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Message-ID: <960123133441_76570.2270_FHU57-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [Chris Tinsley using Gene Mallove's address} Thanks all for your comments. As to secrecy, everybody knows that Jed Rothwell, Gene Mallove and I would never keep any secrets if we didn't have an unusually good reason. The comments on the various possible explanations are helpful, the essential problem here being that it would seem that some skill is needed to run the process at the claimed lower power levels of <100W, and to find out whether the total energy balance is over-unity. I've decided to do proper calorimetry when I get back to England, and that will need 'first principles' static calorimetry because I don't see it being possible to do the kind of flow calorimetry which Jed did on CETI. That's because I don't see myself being able to keep the thing going long enough. My general approach would be to log input power for the duration of a run, use as little power as possible, and capture as much as possible of the heat produced. The thermite process seems to me not to be a potential source of heat, since it requires there to be a highly reactive metal in contact with an oxide like iron oxide. However, it will be necessary to determine how much loss of material there has been from the electrodes, and assume all that has been 'burnt'. The only conventional explanation I can see is that a conductive path is established and the input electrical power is then converted to heat - with maybe a bit of metal-oxidation energy throuwn in. That means that it will be essential to do proper calorimetry. OK, "weird science" is great fun, but - sadly - one must do real measurements on it. Then and anly then do we know whether it really is weird. I'll do my best to do calorimetry which is reasonably accurate, and which is secure and not easy to argue away. Air-flow calorimetry seems to me to have all manner of problems, I just don't like it at all. And I'll report my results here as soon as I possibly can. But first I have to fly several hundred miles north to where (I trust) it will be a damned sight warmer than it is here. Away from this weird country with its crazy weather, mysterious plumbing, and domestic equipment which defies intuition in its operation. Away from upside-down light-switches, people driving on the wrong side of the road, the language barrier, and those who infuriatingly insist on wishing me a nice day. It's been a thoroughly enjoyable visit. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:03:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA29434 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA29416 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tejiW-0005MUC; Tue, 23 Jan 96 08:29 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Kink To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:29:00 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9601222024.AA09115@kosal0.triumf.ca> from "Martin Sevior" at Jan 22, 96 12:23:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin wrote: > > There appears to be a kink in the common return hose, just upstream > > from sample outlet valve. > Can you put the new photos on your web site? I don't think I'll be able to get to it until I come back, so it'll be a week and a half or so. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:40:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA16196 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA16165 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzztw27152; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33712; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:05:01 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 422504080096023FEPRI; 23 Jan 1996 08:04:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 23 Jan 1996 08:04:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/23/96 08:04:24 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/22/96 20:28 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment Yes, I think John has something there. Thermite is a mixture of Iron Oxide, Aluminum, and Magnesium. Once ignited it produces a "white hot" molten mixture. As John says, it has a built in oxidizer. Of course, it could be that no one has ever done CALORIMETRY on a thermite reaction, and if they did, they might have a surprise, who knows? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:45:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA16168 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA16149 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzztw27120; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17239; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:58:01 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 635656070096023FEPRI; 23 Jan 1996 07:56:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 23 Jan 1996 07:56:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/23/96 07:56:56 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/23/96 00:27 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment Jed: No, you can run this in Oriani's high temp. Seebeck. Trick is to mount it on a pedestal which won't melt, and to put in an inert sorrounding gas. (Like He4). Then to switch off his outside heating, go to cooling mode and pull the energy off fast enough to keep interior He4 below like 500 degrees C. (Actually, I think his seebeck can do btetter than this. A video tape would help. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:45:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA16435 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA16395 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06211 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:10:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199601231610.AA06211@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:10:19 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: 600w Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:09:37 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I made 600W arcs in a microwave oven. They were quite dramatic and producd flashing, humming, and splatting noise. I melted a glass rod. Aluminum foil tended to vaproize and produce floating plasmaids. All and all these experiments were neat but did not produce any excess energy. 600 watts applied in the correct fashion can make quite an arc. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 09:42:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA23254 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA23228 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA08222 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:47:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199601231647.AA08222@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:47:25 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: ceramic Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:46:37 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Hal Puthoff was producing discharges in a ceramic material some years ago. He got a tiny amount of excess energy. Perhaps there is a link. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 09:47:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA23127 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA23103 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from omicron.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA01339; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:45:31 +0100 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:45:31 +0100 Message-Id: <9601231645.AA01339@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: To Bill Page and to Components of Vortex-l X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Again I send an appeal to explore Kamada's anomalous=20 effects:a stable n in 2D is at 1 fm from the proton.In my opinion,as result of the nuclear interactions in condition far for equilibrium in the metal,neutrons started to decay generating also electrons with favourable physical condi- tions for overlap for wavepackets as required for the cold fusion of p and e to form n.According to Bill Page ,kamada's results appear to be the first candidate to confirm Biquater- nion Quantum Mechanics predictions. I HAVE TO SUMMARIZE AGAIN SOME IMPORTANT CONCEPTS - The cold fusion is the possibility of all massive particles to create novel bound states due to the mutual penetration of their wavepackets at distances smaller of 1 fm.This is predicted by CGSE and Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics: the use of LHBT explains these phenomena here including new relativistic imolications.In fact,non linear,non local interactions cause an alteration of the features of our=20 space-time usually representable by Minkowski space- time:in fact,correct modifications of the basic invariants for relativity are obtained by LHBT that also determine CGSE and Biquatrenion Quantum Mechanics.In differnt terms we may say that the basic problem in cold fusion is to consider a modification of the intrinsic characteristics of the constituents and this,again,follows from Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics and use of LHBT. -The cold fusion is strictly defined in Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics in a new relativistic space-time accounted by LHBT for media different from the vacuum.No unitary internal spaces are required and therefore the process does not require any consideration of quarks also if a detailed discussion may suggest their modifications in our conception. -when the pointlike approximation of wavepackets is abandoned and non canonical interaction effects due to their mutual penetration, are considered and quantitatively represented by LHBT in Biquat. Quantum Mechanics,there is emergence of attractive effects that overcome the coulombian interaction.Note the IMPORTANT FACT: this occurs also in the case of REPULSIVE Coulomb FORCES. Studing the file,one sees the dominance of the deep mutual penetration of wavepackets at mutual distances smaller than 1fm, and this interaction dominates indipendently of the attractive or repulsive character of the original coulomb interactions at larger distances. This kind of charge independence is of particular importance,I retain, for studies on the experimental previous results on the cold fusion. -FERMI LEGACY:the conventional Minkowski space is and remains the fundamental space for the description of particles in vacuum.This is obtained clearly by LHBT.The primary function of the new Minkowski spaces generated by LHBT in Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics.is the geometrization of the inner part ,of the media of the particles,such LHBT describe the departure from the homogeneous and isotropic vacuum=20 to the deep supewrposition of wavepackets that constitute some particles. Let us remember that massive particles have been constituted by wave packets of the order of 1 fm as Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics establishes and this is also confirmed at experimental level.In brief,the inner of a=20 proton has a non local,non canonical structure that,accordind to Biquat. Quantum Mechanics,requires a modified Minkowski space-time. Also later in life,Einstein was unable to change his position on quantum mechanics and always he considered it as a temporary theoretical formulation. Fermi often expressed his doubts on the final character of the usual formulations.Let us consider how Fermi expressed his thinking in his lecture notes in Nuclear Physics in relation to the protons, neutrons and the strong interactions at short range:"there are doubts as to whether THE USUAL CONCEPTS OF GEOMETRY HOLD for such small regions of space".Consider that doubts on the geometry imply doubts on the possibility to use the usual relativity and the usual quantum mechanics at this level.Finally,we have now Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics that reaches some fixed points: 1-it shows the existence of states of mutual penetration and overlapping of their charge volumes for particles. 2-As consequence ,particles cannot be approximated as pointlike, 3-the experimental fact that the hadrons are constituted by wvepackets confirms the theoretical predictions of the theory.Only electromagnetic interactions are long range,and this is the usual case of the atomic quantum mechanics,only in this case the particles may be approximated as poinlike, 4-finally,the theory predices the inapplicability of Einstein's special relativity ,and also this point was clearly expressed by the same Einstein when he expressed that his formulation was conceived for pointlike charged particles moving in vacuum under an external long range interaction. In conclusion,I retain that the biquaternion Quantum Mechanics is a theoretical framework that derives in the inner of its formal and conceptual structure,results that appear in agreement with the experience,I am also conviced that the cold fusion strictly passes by the theoretical way indi- cated by this theory.Sincerely .Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 09:49:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA26610 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA26596 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA11396 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:58:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601231658.LAA11396@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:04:50 -0500 To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Hope Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles, Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! Your converstion to Word 6.0 format is excellent. It seems that all of the formatting and special symbols are retained. Now I finally have something that can be read (and understood?) Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 09:55:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA24631 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA24604 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA05719 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:54:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199601231654.AA05719@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:54:47 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Jupiter Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:54:05 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 The Galileo space probe found less Helium on Jupiter than expected. The core of Jupiter is hotter than expected. Perhaps Jupiter is heated in part by ZPE. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 10:06:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA16166 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA16145 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzztw27104; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19840; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:00:02 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 862359070096023FEPRI; 23 Jan 1996 07:59:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 23 Jan 1996 07:59:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/23/96 07:59:23 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/23/96 00:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Chris: I have a commecial Rockwell "Radiometer". It is a Seebeck like plate with a laminar air flow over it. It has a calibration to it. I will bring it to England with me and give it to you. It is EXACTLY what you need. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 11:25:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA28512 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA28477 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA12579 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:17:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199601231717.AA12579@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:17:28 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: arc Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 12:16:47 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 A good easy way to check for excess energy is with a video camera. That's how Stenger and I analyzed our arcs. In slow motion in the US a VCR tape plays back in 1/30 of a second frames. We found that the thermal storage of a plasma is low. With a 25,000 joule arc the plasma was out within one frame. Hot metal globs tended to last for several frames. You can tell they are globs of metal by the way they move and by the splatters that remain after the blast. Put a light bulb in the scene. Connect the bulb to the same power supply as the the arc. When the effect is obtained turn off the current. If additional energy is entering the arc from a ZP or fusion process the plasma should glow for several frames. My guess is its not going to work. I tried a lot of this kind of stuff myself and had no luck at all. The plasma went out within one frame of when the power was turned off. Frank Znidarsic PS Zoom in and set the camera away. Set it on high speed. A 25,000 joule blast in 1/30 of a second did not damage my image chip. An after spot remained for a few hours then the chip recovered. Perhaps some smoked glass will help protect the image chip. PS also The high speed setting 1/1000 on a camera does not change the framing rate of 1/30 of a second. 1/1000 of a second exposed pictures are presented at 1/30 of a second intervals. In the UK the frame rate should be 1/2 of the power line frequency. ps Burning aluminum vapor in my microwave experiments lasted about 4 frames...no longer... ....longer than this...you have got something...... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 00:16:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA29745 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA29723 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p1.aa.net (s1c1p1.aa.net [204.157.220.173]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA15239 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:00:36 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601240800.AAA15239@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:03:35 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Hope Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:04 PM 1/23/96 -0500, you wrote: >Charles, > >Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! > >Your converstion to Word 6.0 format is excellent. It seems that >all of the formatting and special symbols are retained. Now I >finally have something that can be read (and understood?) > >Cheers, >Bill Page. > I am glad to hear that someone has converted into Word 6.0. Where are they stashed? Can I obtain a copy? Were the text versions ever corrected for the missing formulas? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 00:16:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA29708 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA29693 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p1.aa.net (s1c1p1.aa.net [204.157.220.173]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA15227 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:00:27 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601240800.AAA15227@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:03:26 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:09 PM 1/22/96 EST, you wrote: > >[Chris Tinsley using Gene Mallove's email address] > >At the risk of playing "20 Questions", I would comment that John Logajan - >despite his remarkably imaginative ideas - is totally and completely off base. > I would never play with thorium, I'll just stick to my daily diet of three >gas mantles per day (after food). You want I should get my coward's licence >revoked? Anyway - knowing how thorium would behave if you struck an arc - I'd >expect weird-*looking* things to happen if I played with that. I happen to >think this doesn't just *look* weird, it *is* weird. Bubbling, molten, white >hot pools of ceramic with <100W? Naah. I'll suggest that the bubbling is >probably only from the burning wood support under the puddle, I'm not >suggesting the ceramic is boiling! > >As for Mike Mandeville's comments, well - that's not any of my concern. I >just tell it like I see it. I think I'll call in on Anchor Surplus back home >in Nardeenghairm and see if they've got any heavy duty electrical stuff going >cheap. Or even cheep. I reckon I could do some crude, conservative >calorimetry just by melting tiles and dumping them in a bucket of water >afterwards. Trouble with all this is that the thermal and light radiation >from this thing is so intense that there must be a lot of energy loss. Maybe >all you clever people out there could make suggestions. Note that this isn't >an electric arc. At least, if it is it sho 'nuff don' look like it none. > > >The fun bit was the sight of Jed Rothwell when I did the demo. He was doing >this "inscrutable" thing he has picked up in the Mystic Orient, but when it >started up he jumped a foot in the air and came down squawking like a chicken. > Deeply satisfying, that was. Pity I couldn't see him properly, the >afterimages from the fireball are a bit tiresome. > >"Weird Science" is fun, innit? > >Chris > > Chris, have you ever seen a tape of a demo of a Brown's Gas Generator in action? Some of the effects seem quite the same. BG "burns" organge to blue, depending upon adjustment of rate and water content, and "vaporizes" tungsten like an old fashioned Fourth of July sparkler (fireworks). It also makes short work of all of the silicates, and can create showers of effects with various stuff. BG process can run on only a few hundred watts. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 01:11:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA19419 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19200 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04984 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:17:26 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner@matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:16:09 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [SNIP] >What I dislike about the phenomenon is that there is no >obvious pay-off for individual researchers, except possible minor fame >somewhere near the end of the next century, also that it takes very >sophisticated methods and measurements tooling to explore for defining >principles, and that no one wants to work with radioactive substances, >myself included. > [SNIP] >Michael Mandeville, publisher >mwm@aa.net >http://www.aa.net/~mwm Please never forget the potential benefit of preventing all our decendents from becoming crispy critters. Global warming is now confirmed, and the studies of high altitude haze is only just beginning. We may be already in a runaway greenhouse effect which only drastic and permanent changes can stop. I think making a few bucks should be secondary, unless the bucks are for additional research. While we are at it, hurray for the Reds, the Bengals, Skyline Chile, Hudepohl Beer, the Cincinnati Pops, United Dairy Farmers, and now, the mysterious Cincinati Group. Cincinnati, what a town! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 01:12:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA19449 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19224 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04986 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:17:31 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner@matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:16:14 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: evaporated coatings Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > >What are your thoughts on coating all sides of the beads? If you cover a >tray with 1 layer of beads plus some empty area, then arrange the tray to >slowly tilt back and forth or to vibrate, the beads will roll around >and expose their uncoated faces. > If you have one of those piezoelectric transducers left over from your cavitation experiments you might be able to use one to shake a small tray of beads. Outgassing might be a problem, but you might get the tray to shake by putting it on the bottom of a piece of glassware with the transducer glued to the opposite side. A note from personal experience: a small change in frequency can a have a much larger effect on bead hopping height than a small change in amplitude. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 01:13:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA03378 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA03267 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA14407 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:35:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601232035.PAA14407@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:42:02 -0500 To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: Conte's theory: neutron excited states? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Now that I can read Prof. Conte's papers in their (almost) original form, I have a few questions which perhaps Prof. Conte will answer. Of course, everyone's comments are welcome. Before everything else, I would like to say that I am surprized by the scope of Prof. Conte's work. And I am now certainly motivated to understand more about it. I have obtained the earliest paper (1994a) that he has published in Physics Essays, unfortunately my local university library no longer subscribes to this journal, so it will take a little longer to get the rest. I would like to be able to read Prof. Conte's book: "Meccanica Quantistica Biquaterionica", but I am afraid that a book written in Italian would be more difficult for me than if it were written in pure mathematics alone! I hope that there will be an English translation soon. First a small matter. I think there is a typographical error in equations (3.7) and (3.8) which might confuse someone on first reading. Could you confirm Prof. Conte, that the lowercase symbol k in these equations should actaully be the uppercase K, as defined following equation (3.9)? Second, my recollection of the "empirical pseudo-potential transformation" may be a bit rusty. I do, however recall that it is a important method of obtaining approximate solutions to Schrodinger's equation in solid-state semi-conductor physics. In any case, equation (3.11) defines the operator Q(r) = 1 - |mu> ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzuv09347; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07683; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:11:53 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 251411140096023FEPRI; 23 Jan 1996 14:11:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 23 Jan 1996 14:11:14 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Hyper Abundant Vacancies in Pd To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/23/96 14:11:12 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Hyper Abundant Vacancies in Pd - Well, I was holding off on this until an associate of mine could try to get some neutron diff. work done on some Pd I believe to be in the "Hyper Abundant Vacancy" State. - But, for the benefit of the Vortex, I will put this information out.... - In 1994, a very "straight" researcher in Japan, a Dr. Fukai, put out a paper called, "Formation of Hyper Abundant Vacancies in Pd under High Pressure Hydrogen Exposure". In this paper Dr. Fukai gave information that he and his associates had used a "tetrahedral anvil" to saturate Pd to more than 1:1 with H, and then, with a 700 degree C heat treatment, created a Pd3Vac1H4 structure, which was stable. - Now the crux of all this is the following..... Many an individual has been hyper critical of the work of Pons and Flieschmann, particularily on the point that after acheiving (by theirs and other's observations) a .85 D to Pd atom ratio they yet had to wait 250 to 300 hours before the "reaction" turned on and the experiments generated excess heat. - I would propose the following: Under electrolysis, an effective pressure equivalant to the "tetrahedral anvil" pressure is generated in the P&F electrodes. This leads towards the hyper saturation with D in the Pd. However, before the P&F "reaction" can take place, the structure of the system MUST be in the form Pd3Vac1D4. To rearrange to that structure, once saturated with D, takes (under the driving force of the .5Amp/Cm**2) the 200 to 300 hours. - Now there is an important point here.....The rearrangement of the Pd atoms under the current flow. This phenomenon, called alloy drift, has been observed for some number of years in the electronics/electrical field. When the current is flowing in the proper direction, Cu can be induced to migrate into the Sn/Pd of the typical solder. When the Cu concentration becomes too great, the joint fails. Fortunately, most solder joints carry such low currents that this would take hundreds of years. Unfortunately, some solder joints have been made which have carried enough current density, and they have failed. (My information comes from a metallurgist who worked in the "implanted electronic medical device" realm, thus the term "unfortunately") - Thus, it is a conjecture on my part that a "self diffusion" will occur in Pd under high current, and the net result of 250 hours at .5Amp/Cm**2 will be about the same as 3 hours at 700 degrees C. - Note that there is more than one heuristic that this answers about the P&F "effect". It has been observed that Pd cathodes that "have triggered" will almost IMMEDIATELY retrigger even if they have been turned off for some time. #2, there is some indication that once a P&F electrode has gone to the "reactive state", it can absorb and discharge D2 faster than a virgin piece of Pd. Now here is a thought, if the Metal3Vac1Hydrogen4 is somewhat of a generic state, the amorphous metal of a plating layer may---under strong H "pressure" from electrolysis, and relatively short time, rearrage to this blessed state. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 01:23:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA23379 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA23322 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzuk11297; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36032; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:44:52 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 725543110096023FEPRI; 23 Jan 1996 11:43:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 23 Jan 1996 11:43:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/23/96 11:43:54 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/23/96 09:01 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Chris: I've been working out basic calculations assuming a 1/10 lbm (English) of material, and 1/10 ft^2 of surface area for radiating. I do come up with numbers that show a "thermite" type reaction could explain things. Which only brings us to the point that you must know something about the materials to be strongly interested: I.e., if you are sure everything that is involved is ALREADY A CERAMIC (i.e., tight oxide materials) then the suggestions that the energy comes from the material by some mysterious process that unbinds the oxygen, is kind of a "bootstrap" theory. (Like the "shuttle" theory that some otherwise alledged "intelligent" individuals have proposed for the CETI results.) - Anyway, I'll bring the "thermal radiation emission measuring device" no matter what. I might even let you BUY it from me, for the price I paid for it at the "surplus" store that had NO IDEA what it was for....i.e., $10 American. - HAVE A NICE DAY...... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 03:19:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA16591 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 02:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA16581 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 02:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA01612; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:40:38 -0500 Date: 23 Jan 96 09:01:33 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Kink Message-ID: <960123140132_72240.1256_EHB117-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex People should not get all het up about the kink seen in the photos of the CETI calorimeter. It did not significantly impede or change the flow. It couldn't have, for the following reasons: 1. We measured the flow repeatedly, sometimes leaving the hose as close to the table as we could and not disturbing anything, and sometimes raising it in the air as high as it would go. There was never any measurable difference. 2. The equipment was moved and rearranged three times, back and forth between the hotel and the convention center. The hoses were drained and the cell removed every evening. It was reattached every morning, which called for picking up the hoses and holding them high in the air to drain out the bubbles, a tedious process. 3. Between the times we took samples, you could see the water and electrolysis bubbles move through the pipes rapidly. 4. To account for the 8 to 17 deg C Delta T the pipes would have to be stopped up almost completely, allowing no more than a few drops through every minute. In that case, when we dumped out 250 ml samples, cold water would have covered the outlet thermocouples, the Delta T would have dropped to zero immediately, and it would have taken 10 or 20 minutes to recover. That did not happen. 5. The experiment was performed previously with flowmeters, which showed no variations. 6. The CETI cells have been both replicated and verified by at least four other independent labs. The performance of the large cell is not surprising. It is what you would expect from a 40 ml scale-up. I don't mean to suggest that is it perfectly okay to run without flowmeters and ignore kinks. It is sloppy, and uncharacteristic of Dennis Cravens. As I said in previous messages and at the MIT seminar, this was because of politics. The Big Corporation is putting pressure on CETI to shut up. Their response was to do a deliberately unimpressive demonstration. ("Unimpressive" may not be a strong enough, try: half-assed.) I think this was a grave mistake. I would never do an unprofessional job because a customer put pressure on me. But the people at CETI think they are way cool sophisticated Machiavellian flinty-eyed businessmen. If their strategy succeeds and they make a billion dollars, the history books will say they were right and this is the correct way to market cold fusion. Thirty years from now, a historian will come along and ask me what happened, and I'll say their strategy worked in spite of its weaknesses, because the product was so good that any marketing strategy would work. As for me, I agree with Pete Peterson, who was the Executive V.P. of WordPerfect Corporation back when WordPerfect ruled the roost. He wrote: "Do you try whenever possible to choose the simple rather than the complex solution? Business is a fairly simple activity. You identify a need, figure out how to fill it, manufacture your solution, and find the best way to sell your product at a profit. You then support your customers with reliable service consistent with the price you charge, make sure you collect your money, and pay your taxes on time. After that, you listen to your customers, and based on what they tell you and whatever else you figure out, you improve your product as fast as you can to stay ahead of your competition. All the other things, like strategic alliances, weird pricing and promotional schemes, and trying to create needs when they do not exist, introduce complexities that never help in the long run. I never found an occasion when the complex solution was better than the simple one." *That's* how to succeed in business. Keep It Simple Stupid (the 'KISS' rule). - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 06:40:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA10195 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 06:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA10172 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 06:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA19427; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:16:45 -0500 Date: 24 Jan 96 09:15:46 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Cincinnati effect unrelated to tiles Message-ID: <960124141545_72240.1256_EHB94-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex It is extremely frustrating to me that I cannot discuss this Cincinnati Group experiment in greater detail. I was told I went a little too far in the previous message. I hope that we can soon reveal all details, but I am bound by non-disclosure agreements for the time being. Let me quote one observation that Chris already posted: "The first is a process which involves having two electrodes with a small gap separating them, mounted on a non-conducting substrate. What the substrate is doesn't matter very much, commonly it would be glazed tile or asbestos or some refractory." [Okay? That was Chris, not me.] The substrate does not matter, the process works with tile, asbestos and various other materials. Therefore, the hypotheses that have been proposed here about the tile materials causing the reaction are invalid. Let me say that I am still far from convinced that this is an anomalous energy process. I have heard about encouraging calorimetry, but I have not seen those results, I know little about the equipment, the people who did the tests, the calibrations and so on, so I cannot judge them. Chris and I are brainstorming about how to measure the heat from this reaction in the simplest possible manner. As he mentioned, the plan is now to dump the hot tiles into water, and measure the temperature rise. That may be more difficult than it sounds (and it does not sound easy!) Chris may have to get some of his strong-armed friends with split-second coordination to assist. That rules me out. I'll stay in Atlanta and wait for the video. It will have great entertainment value if nothing else. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 09:31:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA27151 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA27094 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA007368974; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:56:14 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:58:40 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Gallelo probe was produced in the laboratory where I work and all the data reduction is done here so I have access to first hand information and can pass along anything relevant to the interests of this group. The thinking on the Helium density is that most of the gas in Jupiter came from the interstellar medium instead of from the sun. The hotter temperature is probably a dynamical effect. It already was known that Jupiter produces excess energy and the amount was fairly well known from the radiation balance. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:21:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA16365 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16341 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.73] ([204.57.193.73]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA09771 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:58:07 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:56:30 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's theory: neutron excited states? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >But I must also recall that Prof. Conte has not given us an >explanation of why such decays should occur at all if (p,e-) >is really a bound state. Also, what prevents ordinary hydrogen >from spontaneously "decaying" into neutrons? In the hydrogen >ground state, a significant portion of the electron wavefunction >must be "inside" the proton. > >Cheers, >Bill Page. Please pardon the intrusion of an amateur if the following is way off base. Isn't the the probability of collapse proportional to a volume integral of the product of electron and proton wavefunctions *squared*, i.e. not just the wave function products? If so, the probability of spontaneous collapse would be negligible. Also, I think the recent creation of ultra low temperature, huge (visible), blended (merged), Einstein-Bose atoms in the laboratory lends support to Prof. Conte's view of the overlapping wave nature of matter. There is an article on this in a recent Discover Magazine. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:33:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA16759 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16729 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.73] ([204.57.193.73]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA09780 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:00:33 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:58:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: irradiation and other thoughts Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >have tried twice to post this, but the server did not >add the message .... > > >Subject: Re: vtx: Comments on Cincinnati Group experiment >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mitchell, The above is all that is getting through. Do you have a majordomo command in the text or something? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:35:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA27006 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from skypoint.com (mirage.skypoint.com [199.86.32.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26855 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by skypoint.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tfAJo-0007l2C; Wed, 24 Jan 96 12:53 CST Message-Id: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Kink To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:53:16 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <960123140132_72240.1256_EHB117-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 23, 96 09:01:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > 2. The equipment was moved and rearranged three times, Agreed. Even In Akira's photos the kink appears and disappears. > 4. To account for the 8 to 17 deg C Delta T the pipes would have to be stopped > up almost completely, allowing no more than a few drops through every minute. I wasn't suggesting the kink stopped the flow -- but it might have slowed it for, say, the 1300 watt run (pure speculation, of course.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 14:16:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA28725 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA28681 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzyl06544; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38902; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:53:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 281152130096024FEPRI; 24 Jan 1996 13:52:13 PST Message-Id: Date: 24 Jan 1996 13:52:13 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's theory: neutron excited states? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/24/96 13:52:10 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/24/96 11:21 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's theory: neutron excited states? There is this classic diagram that plots nuclear energy levels versus mass number. At the low end of the plot, when you add nucleii you can obtain energy output, on the high end, you can elucidate that you need to "split" atoms to liberate energy. I think for many elements in the middle adding together would be "neutral". An interesting thing might come of this low temp work----if they start observing nuclear transformations. I wonder if an applied current would help???? - (PS, this is just OFF THE TOP OF THE HEAD thinking, not well thought out, not profound....take it as such.) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:19:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA15728 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA15542 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29229; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:40:17 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23732; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:36:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:36:12 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199601242236.AA23732@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: irradiation and other thoughts Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thank you Horace. there are major problema but it (hopefully) will be fixed shortly. at least the cf system is working ;-)X Mitchell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:27:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA15233 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA14971 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA09933 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:32:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199601242032.AA09933@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:32:12 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: SHOTDOWN Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 15:31:29 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I sent this before but it didn't come out. I was shot down today at my meeting with V. P. Toole. GPU is not going to do a thing with the CETI cell. Toole stated. "Our charter is to operate our existing plants. This we will do at the lowest possible cost." This is our core effort no resources will be diverted from our core mission. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:28:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA24982 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA24920 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA03182; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:15:04 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601250015.AA03182@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Kink To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:15:04 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca (Martin Sevior) In-Reply-To: <960123140132_72240.1256_EHB117-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 23, 96 09:01:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: [snip] > > 6. The CETI cells have been both replicated and verified by at least four > other independent labs. The performance of the large cell is not surprising. > It is what you would expect from a 40 ml scale-up. > Jed do you know whether any of the high gain cells have been tested with anything other than flowing electrolyte calorimetry? Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:31:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA00182 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00100 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzya10538; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09909; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:58:06 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 262557100096024FEPRI; 24 Jan 1996 10:57:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 24 Jan 1996 10:57:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/24/96 10:57:22 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/24/96 09:31 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter Larry: Once while having an esoteric arguement with a friend about "picking up signals of intelligent life" (the friend, a medical Doctor, was convinced we are "alone" in the galacy/universe because, "We would have received their radio signals by now....") I noted the sensitivity and discrimination needed to pick up the microwave wavelengths coming from the "red spot" on Jupiter. I then square power lawed the arguement to signals from say, Alpha Centari, and noted the signal strength from "man made" sources would be so weak after 3.6 light years travel, as to be indistinguishable from noise. Now I am guilty of one slight transgression in making this arguement, and that is I stated cart blanche that the RF emmissions from the "red spot" would exceed all the transmitting power (man made) on the earth at that time. What magnitude does the "red spot" broadcast at?? - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:32:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA23796 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA23666 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:35:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06880 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:33:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199601241833.AA06880@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:33:48 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: badnews Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 13:32:33 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I had my meeting with VP Ron Toole this morning. At the meeting were a few middle managers from the Pennsylvania Electric Co. and Jersey Power and Light. VP Toole was there. He heads up GENCO the domestic generation arm of General Public Utilities Corp. I have no doubt that everyone at the meeting was convinced that something is happening with the CETI device. V.P. Toole told us that it was "Not in our charter to follow this line of work. Our charter is to run our existing generating facilities at the lowest possible cost." I was informed that new drilling technologies are finding a lot a cheep deep natural gas and that Honda is coming out with a little home generator that runs on this gas. Our primary mission was to keep our costs low enough to keep out competitors and to prevent more immediate technologies, like the Honda Generator, from taking root. No money exists outside of this core strategy. Sad but true. I may even have to log off of this news group from my work location. I get the feeling that the utility business is dead. Does anyone know the address at the big M where I can apply for a job? Frank Znidarsic PE From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:35:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA13404 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA13293 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA28466 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:26:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601241726.MAA28466@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:32:14 -0500 To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: More on Ghostscript Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: t.glenewinkel-meyer@physik.tu-chemnitz.de (Thomas Glenewinkel-Meyer) >Newsgroups: sci.physics.research >Subject: Re: Reading Lanl >Date: 21 Jan 1996 14:42:50 -0500 >Organization: University of Technology Chemnitz, FRG >Lines: 29 >Sender: pfiglio@anthrax.physics.indiana.edu >Approved: pfiglioz@indiana.edu >Message-ID: <4dqiq0$4l7@pyrrhus-f.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de> >References: <4dn10v$eu@titania.pps.pgh.pa.us> >NNTP-Posting-Host: anthrax.physics.indiana.edu >X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 >Status: O > >grauer@oberon.pps.pgh.pa.us (Victor Grauer) wrote: > >>I'm very interesting in downloading and reading some of the preprints at >>lanl.gov (and other places) but they all seem to be in Post Script or >>LaTex format. Does anyone know if the same material is available >>anywhere in plain text format? If not, is Post Script reading software >>available for downloading anywhere on the net and if so where? Thanks. >> Victor Grauer > >There is a great Postscript viewer around. And it's even freeware. >Check out the following URL > http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ >for Ghostscript and GSview. If you can't use a Netbrowser you can >anonymous FTP to ftp.cs.wisc.edu and check for a dir, I think, >/pub/aladdin. This is a message to all you folks, it is a great >program and FREE! > >Thomas > >--------------------------------------- >Dr. Thomas Glenewinkel-Meyer >Institut fuer Physik >Technische Universitaet Chemnitz-Zwickau >Reichenhainer Strasse 70 / Zi. 548 >09107 Chemnitz >Germany >Tel: +49 (371) 531-3049 >FAX: +49 (371) 531-3103 > > From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:38:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA24199 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA23784 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA14088 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:25:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199601242125.AA14088@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:25:55 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Good Job! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 16:25:12 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Rick Seese of GPU sends his regrets to me. Don't even use the Co. email but keep them informed. What a krock. I looking for a new job. Frank Znidarsic Frank, I wanted to say that I think you did a good job today in your presentation, and express my condolences that Ron couldn't be more supportive. I know how hard you have worked on this concept and how important it is to you. In the 8 months that I have been working for Ron, I have grown to respect him -- you can see from his understanding of your concepts today that he is a very intelligent person. I think it is important to understand that he did not close the door on this, only that he needs to be convinced that it is worth pursuing in this competitive arena. I would not give up on this if I were you. In particular, you need to stay in communication with Miley, Puthoff, and other leaders in this field. Opportunities for you outside Genco justify this continued involvement. Also, as information continues to be made availabe, I would like to be kept abreast, and would again spearhead an effort to put this before Ron when appropriate. Nick Esposito is also interested. You need to though, to separate this effort from your work life at Conemaugh. In these times of NFL drafts and the like, you need to continue to insure JEG/JWB that your priority is Genco/Conemaugh. You need to keep them from having to defend you against those who would criticize your involvement in this technology during working hours. Use America On-line at home to communicate with others. I beleive in you and the importance of the work you are doing in this field. It is of tremendous significance that people like Miley and Puthoff recognize your contribution and communicate with you. Don't withdrawl from this recognition. Good luck, and keep me informed. Rick From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:41:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA02235 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA02003 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gamma.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA02669; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:20:31 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:20:31 +0100 Message-Id: <9601241920.AA02669@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: to Bill Page and The components of vortex X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr. Bill Page and vortex-l, 1- yes,there is a problem in tywritten,it is the same k, 2-I am happy that you remember Pseudopotential Theory, if I understand you,your interest should be for a gauge tran- sformation,and,in the limit,to evocate the socalled quantum potential that first was proposed by Bohm(I hope that you will be happy so !).However its role in a causal interpretation of quantum mechanics remained controversial.Its relevance could emerge in the representation of the "hoping" integral in the tJ model.You could also use pseudopotential transformation and the conventional Schrodinger equation to define the non local operator 1 - | > <|. Also for this way the problem is and remains:you should use the=20 transformation showing that it depends on the INTEGRAL OF=20 WAVE OVERLAPPING.You should obtain the same form of my Hulthen potential.This explains that we may use Hulthen potential for binding of a pair of electrons into a sinle copper pair in a superconductor,and we should have a new calculation for the super conducting transition temperature.Results:we should=20 have the representation of a copper pair of electrons in a strongly correlated system,and,AGAIN,it should be a state of mutual overlap of the paired electron wavefunctions:the cold fusion (e,e) in super- conductivity. 3-Attention,please.We must have only singlet stable states for the spinning particles.Triplets couplings or other,under total mutual pe- netration,should imply only repulsive non local non linear....interactions with the spinning of each particle inside and against that of the other. Always we have to remember that the mechanism of the cold fusion is characterized by the non local,non linear ......interactions at DISTAN- CES < 1fm which are attractive in singlet states and resolve also the Coulomb interaction in a resulting attractive total interaction.Excuse= me,but we have to remember always the range og the non local,non linear=20 interactions due to the mutual penetration of wave packets.With the fusion n=3D p+e,we have just the basic feature of biquaternion quantum mechanics.In the usual quantum mechanics we have bound states with a spectrum of energy,in n=3D p+e in biquaternion quantum mechanics we have only one single level.We cannot have excited states at distan- ces < 1 fm,all the excited states imply greater distances. ---------------------- Finally,dr.Bill Page and other components of vortex,may we begin to encourage the experimentation? It appears to me that we are reaching a sufficient degree of deepening.In addition,please,may we make deeper the results of Kamada,also consulting dr.Kamada(if possible).It appears to me that Kamada et al.(but certainly also other researchers) obtained good results to test initially the cold fusion as predicted by the Biquater- nion Quantum Mechanics.In case,do you know the E-mail of dr.Kamada? Excuse me for these final digressions,I send you all my thanks for the precious criticism,and I remain waiting for your further comments and elaborations.Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 23:43:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA12001 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA11920 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA28431 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:18:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601241718.MAA28431@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:24:23 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Hope Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Michael Mandeville wroteL >At 12:04 PM 1/23/96 -0500, you wrote: > >I am glad to hear that someone has converted into Word 6.0. Where are they >stashed? Can I obtain a copy? I've sent Michael the Word 6.0 format files as email attachments. Perhaps Bill Beaty can add the Word 6.0 format files to his Web site. (Or postscript format - see below.) > Were the text versions ever corrected for >the missing formulas? > No. As far as I know, the text versions are still very incomplete (and even a bit mis-leading because of the lack of subscripts and the transliteration of special symbols (Greek letters etc.), not to mention embedded graphics. Because of the nature of these documents you will need either the Microsoft WORKS program to read the orginals or now you can also use WORD 6.0. Most complex scientific documents (such those that you can download from LANL etc.) these days seem to be distributed as postscript files (or sometimes the "son-of-postscript" Acrobat PDF format). The both Ghostview (for reading postscript files) and Acrobat are available free of charge. So I would propose that in the future, if we would like to distribute this type of document again, we should use one of these formats. BTW, it is quite easy to generate a postscript format document using Windows (and most other platforms). On Windows, all you need to do is install the Adobe Postscript driver that is distributed with Windows (even if you do not have a postscript printer). You simply set up the Adobe Postscript driver to print to a file. Then in your favorite Windows application, you select the Abobe Postscript driver as your "printer" and then just print your document to the file of your choice. This file will be in postscript format and viewable with Ghostscript etc. This way all your special graphics, including images and special symbols will be visible to who ever wants to read your document, even though they don't have your specific application program. Making Acrobat PDF files is a little more complex because they are compressed etc. But basically the same procedure can be used. Anyone else here on Vortex have any opinions about this? Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 02:28:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA03801 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA03788 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA07568; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 05:10:14 -0500 Date: 25 Jan 96 05:07:13 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Rick Seese at GPU Message-ID: <960125100712_76570.2270_FHU27-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, Tell Rick Seese at GPU and "Ron the Tool" to stuff it! Tell them that we are after *their* jobs! With a little help from Japan, we in this field are going to reduce their polluting empires to dust. Tell them that they are spouting the monumental arrogance of the horse and buggy folks when automobiles were introduced. Oh, yes, and tell them to subscribe to Infinite Energy, since we are going to publish their nonsense in our pages. You better have another job by then, eh? Gene Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technnology Cold Fusion Technology P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Fax: 603-224-5975 Phone: 603-228-4516 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 02:29:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA03755 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA03748 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA17148; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 05:09:52 -0500 Date: 25 Jan 96 04:58:34 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: Various comments Message-ID: <960125095833_100433.1541_BHG73-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex I'm just back in Blighty, and half my incoming mail got lost when my mailbox overflowed at 100 messages. Here are a few notes: Scott thinks chemistry is a branch of applied physics. Tut, Scott. Read Beilstein. Then read Fieser & Fieser. Or whatever. Dominic asks where to send my "CF" mags. 127 Wollaton Vale, Nottingham NG8 2PE. Charles asks about whether the "Cincinnati Group" had a theory to direct or justify their work. Absolutely not, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure whether that news is good or bad! What I do know is that I had several curious exchanges, like when it was said that one aspect was puzzling to them; and I said, "Ah, quite simple. That's because of such and such." "But when we alter this parameter, it changes X to Y." And the change was absurd, crazy, made no sense at all. I just grinned, I know when I'm out of my depth - like when I'm three feet from the shallow end of the pool haha. I read what Chris Morriss said about ZPE and rectification and non-linearity. I see the general idea, but I can't understand why non-linearity in an electrical machine should relate to ZPE. But Chris spotted something in the London Financial Times in my absence, apparently a 'straight' piece on o-u electric motors. A curious thought came to my mind. There's a kind of 'mood' out there. People seem to be seeing things like o-u in a different way, they seem willing to accept or at least take seriously this kind of thing. Now, there seem to be so many explanations for mood-shifts, for the way things happen at the same time all around the world - like the famous filing of telephone patents on the very same day by different people. Or the irritation and astonishment from clothes designers who see that all their rivals have very similar designs at the same show. Leaving Jung and Sheldrake out of it (please), we have here either the evidence building to a critical mass - which will shift physics over the next 15 years the way it shifted between 1895 and 1910 (and it REALLY shifted!) or we have the situation that some kind of millennial fever has softened our brains. I'm *absolutely not* some kind of whacko who thinks that three digits going to zero has any significance, just that the very idea of this happening loosens people's thinking in some way. "There's nowt so queer as folks," as they say. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 03:05:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA07026 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA07015 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-58.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-58.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.58]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA25699 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:46:52 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601251046.VAA25699@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:49:29 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's theory: neutron excited states? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 24 Jan 96 at 13:52, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 01/24/96 11:21 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's theory: neutron excited states? > There is this classic diagram that plots nuclear energy levels versus mass > number. At the low end of the plot, when you add nucleii you can obtain > energy output, on the high end, you can elucidate that you need to > "split" atoms to liberate energy. I think for many elements in the > middle adding together would be "neutral". An interesting thing might > come of this low temp work----if they start observing nuclear transformations. > I wonder if an applied current would help???? > - > (PS, this is just OFF THE TOP OF THE HEAD thinking, not well thought out, > not profound....take it as such.) You are not exactly the first to think along these lines. The idea has been around for a while. e.g. N2 (molecule) --> CO molecule (1 proton "hops" from one N to the other) and it turns out that in the process 10 MeV of energy is liberated. Perhaps the CO wouldn't stay together very long :) The same concept for one of the Chlorine isotopes yields about 2 MeV. (I thought this might explain the "coldfiss" experiment that is purported to be a reproduction of the Moray device). The end result with Chlorine would of course be Sulphur and Argon. Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 03:05:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA07036 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA07024 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 02:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-58.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-58.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.58]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA25706 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:46:55 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601251046.VAA25706@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:49:29 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 24 Jan 96 at 10:58, Larry Wharton wrote: > The Gallelo probe was produced in the laboratory where I work and all the > data reduction is done here so I have access to first hand information and > can pass along anything relevant to the interests of this group. The > thinking on the Helium density is that most of the gas in Jupiter came from > the interstellar medium instead of from the sun. The hotter temperature is > probably a dynamical effect. It already was known that Jupiter produces > excess energy and the amount was fairly well known from the radiation > balance. [snip] 1) How much hotter, is "hotter"? 2) How was the temperature measured? 3) Could the measurement have been affected by friction with the atmosphere? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 04:31:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA15525 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA15512 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p6.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA00303 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:11:23 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601251211.EAA00303@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:10:56 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Frank's Impasse Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:07 AM 1/25/96 EST, you wrote: >Frank, > >Tell Rick Seese at GPU and "Ron the Tool" to stuff it! Tell them that we are >after *their* jobs! With a little help from Japan, we in this field are going >to reduce their polluting empires to dust. Tell them that they are spouting >the monumental arrogance of the horse and buggy folks when automobiles were >introduced. > > >Oh, yes, and tell them to subscribe to Infinite Energy, since we are going to >publish their nonsense in our pages. You better have another job by then, eh? > >Gene > >Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief >INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion > and New Energy Technnology >Cold Fusion Technology >P.O. Box 2816 >Concord, NH 03302-2816 > >Fax: 603-224-5975 >Phone: 603-228-4516 > > Another course of action, Frank, is to hang on. They will see you as a prophet in about 12 months and they will recognize then that their profits are going to go to zero because they didnt listen. And they'll be scrambling to figure out how to adjust. About that time you'll be able to drop all sorts of names and insider tidbits and while doing so make sure you ask for a raise. Meanwhile, keep looking, keep shoving stuff at them. No confrontation necessary. Just keep smiling and serenely as if you know something they don't, which you do. But actually, I suspect you will try to hitch your wagon to an emerging star...star-rise is just a crack of the dawn away. P.S. sorry I haven't done much with your electronic book. It is very high quality as far as text goes, and I am so damn busy I can't at the moment take it on as a project. You know there is a magical moment of the dawn, just before the light has really shifted, just minutes before it really shifts, right at the point where the blackness is beginning to yield into grayness, and precisely at that moment, great numbers of the bird kingdom takes wing, singing and chortling in great exuberance to shift the silence of the dead of the night into the life of the day. The birds know that the insects will soon be aroused by the first rays of the sun, and they are already in the air waiting to scoop them up. In every age, there are humans who are waiting for the activity of the new paradigm. What's interesting about them is that they do not have an individual memory to tell them that they are right, nor can they really tell you what they are really doing, why. But they share some sort of prescient feeling...and they know that the new paradigm is about to burst out, even if they don't know for certain what it is. I certainly don't, but I do know what it will rigorously come into knowledge by turning energy equations and relationships into geometric forms, because that is the main thing which is utterly missing in today's physics and chemistry in dealing with a universe of interpentrating 3-d relationships. I friend of mine came up with a quote which really goes to the heart of this and all of science. He said, its simple. Most people have their knowledge causal factor bass ackwards. He said, first you know. Then eventually you discover why and how you knew it. A lot of us now know that there is something we very much want to visit just beyond the bend of this here river. So many of us know, that we are beginning to make a lot of noticable noise, on one level or another. The other monkeys are starting to catch it, on one level or another. What was that about the 100th monkey?...Your guy, Frank, is Monkey 101. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 06:00:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA18166 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA18127 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mu.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA15173; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:33:33 +0100 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:33:33 +0100 Message-Id: <9601251233.AA15173@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: Reply to H.Heffener-Conte's Theory X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just answered to the problem of excited states for the neutron,its stability in hydrogen and decay of this particle.I outline here that it is a tunneling effects as it is quoted also in the usual quantum mechanics.Non local interactions due to overlap for wavepachets,note, are attractive only for distances < 1fm. I am very intersted to your suggestion on Eistein-Bose atoms.Please,could you explain me the experimental basis and your linked ideas with more details.I think that it is very important.Thanking in advance,I remain. yours sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 06:12:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA25398 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 05:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus (root@[193.226.40.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA25339 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 05:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nessie by zeus with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tfRdQ-0003yjC; Thu, 25 Jan 96 15:22 GMT+0200 Received: by nessie (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tfRNY-000Y3iC; Thu, 25 Jan 96 15:06 GMT+0200 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:06:15 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Not your loss, Frank Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Frank, The decision of your management is a great loss for you, but be convinced it's a much, much greater loss for them. And it's symptomatic, your management is in a state of intellectual "rigor mortis". I predict that, at latest in 1997 they will apologize and offer a double salary to you. Your skills for CF/new energy/ZPE are a valuable asset, you will see it soon! All the best wishes from Peter! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 09:06:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA15312 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA15249 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA17612; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:27:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:27:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- ERROR: imbalanced angle brackets Date: 23 Jan 96 19:14:16 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: "\"vortex list <\"<" Subject: vtx: The "Cincinnati Group" Hi Chris, >> The only conventional explanation I can see is that a conductive path is established and the input electrical power is then converted to heat - with maybe a bit of metal-oxidation energy thrown in. << Hmm. If sand would work as the ceramic, maybe we could have a car that runs on sand instead of water. It would improve traction in snowy areas, too. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 11:16:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA14957 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA14918; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:38:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:38:09 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> cc: Vortex Subject: Re: Rick Seese at GPU In-Reply-To: <960125100712_76570.2270_FHU27-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25 Jan 1996, Eugene Mallove wrote: > Frank, > > Tell Rick Seese at GPU and "Ron the Tool" to stuff it! Tell them that we are > after *their* jobs! With a little help from Japan, we in this field are going > to reduce their polluting empires to dust. Tell them that they are spouting > the monumental arrogance of the horse and buggy folks when automobiles were > introduced. > > > Oh, yes, and tell them to subscribe to Infinite Energy, since we are going to > publish their nonsense in our pages. You better have another job by then, eh? > > Gene > > Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief > INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion > and New Energy Technnology > Cold Fusion Technology > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Fax: 603-224-5975 > Phone: 603-228-4516 > In the best capitalist sense, when your managers are not willing to take the risk and you are, start your own company. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 11:17:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA14900 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14499 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA271814675; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:31:15 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:33:47 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 01/24/96 09:31 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter >all the transmitting power (man made) on the earth at that time. What magnitude >does the "red spot" broadcast at?? >- >MDH Mark, I haven't followed the RF emissions from Jupiter. Measurment of the OLR (outgoing longwave radiation - mostly blackbody radiation at about 200 K) on Jupiter indicates more energy going out than is received from the sun. One theory is that this excess energy is comming from some cf reaction. The Gallelo probe got down to about 18 bars befor loss of signal. That is low enough to provide a better estimate of this excess energy. We have to wait a bit longer though. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 12:31:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA25726 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA25710 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from spectre.mitre.org (spectre.mitre.org [129.83.61.124]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA11550 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:55:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (eachus@localhost) by spectre.mitre.org (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA01095; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:55:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:55:53 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" Message-Id: <199601251955.OAA01095@spectre.mitre.org> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-reply-to: <199601242032.AA09933@power.gpu.com> (message from FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser on Wed, 24 Jan 96 15:31:29 EST) Subject: Re: vtx: SHOTDOWN Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser said: > I sent this before but it didn't come out. I was shot down today > at my meeting with V. P. Toole. GPU is not going to do a thing > with the CETI cell. Toole stated. "Our charter is to operate our > existing plants. This we will do at the lowest possible cost." > This is our core effort no resources will be diverted from our > core mission. Uh-huh. And you asked him how much it would reduce costs to stop buying fuel? (Of course MY job wouldn't have been on the line... ;-) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 20:15:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA24218 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24186 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.35]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA22376 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:01:59 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601260401.PAA22376@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:04:43 +0900 Subject: vtx: Re: Rick Seese at GPU Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25 Jan 96 at 5:07, Eugene Mallove wrote: > Frank, > > Tell Rick Seese at GPU and "Ron the Tool" to stuff it! Tell them that we are > after *their* jobs! With a little help from Japan, we in this field are going > to reduce their polluting empires to dust. Tell them that they are spouting > the monumental arrogance of the horse and buggy folks when automobiles were > introduced. > > > Oh, yes, and tell them to subscribe to Infinite Energy, since we are going to > publish their nonsense in our pages. You better have another job by then, eh? > > Gene > > Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief > INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion > and New Energy Technnology > Cold Fusion Technology > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Fax: 603-224-5975 > Phone: 603-228-4516 > > I have been a little worried that the "top 50" company that was interested in CETI might be an oil company. Interested in supressing the invention. Please reassure me that this is not so? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 20:17:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA24214 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24185 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.35]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA22383 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:02:04 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601260402.PAA22383@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:04:43 +0900 Subject: vtx: Re: Various comments Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25 Jan 96 at 4:58, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip] > show. Leaving Jung and Sheldrake out of it (please), we have here either the > evidence building to a critical mass - which will shift physics over the next > 15 years the way it shifted between 1895 and 1910 (and it REALLY shifted!) or > we have the situation that some kind of millennial fever has softened our > brains. I'm *absolutely not* some kind of whacko who thinks that three digits > going to zero has any significance, just that the very idea of this happening > loosens people's thinking in some way. "There's nowt so queer as folks," as > they say. [snip] Just to borrow a theme from science fiction for a moment, suppose that at regular intervals the earth passes through something in space (some directed radiation field ? e.g. from a pulsar?) that has an effect on the minds of the whole population of the planet? :^) Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 22:41:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA18282 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18200 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:41:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA19194; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:41:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:41:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Hope In-Reply-To: <199601241718.MAA28431@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Bill Page wrote: > I've sent Michael the Word 6.0 format files as email attachments. > Perhaps Bill Beaty can add the Word 6.0 format files to his Web site. > (Or postscript format - see below.) Already there, on the vortex-L page .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 22:45:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17406 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA17148 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA277895593; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:46:34 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:49:06 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Jupiter Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >1) How much hotter, is "hotter"? >2) How was the temperature measured? >3) Could the measurement have been affected by friction with the >atmosphere? > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk The temperature is from a pressure measurment and from the density measurment so the temperature is not actually measured but deduced from the pressure and density. I don't have any more details right now. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 22:47:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA10349 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA10231 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA15140 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:49:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601251749.MAA15140@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:03:53 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Conte's theory: Bohm, neutrinos, experiments Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof. Conte wrote: >... >2-I am happy that you remember Pseudopotential Theory, >if I understand you,your interest should be for a gauge tran- >sformation,and,in the limit,to evocate the socalled quantum >potential that first was proposed by Bohm(I hope that you will >be happy so !).However its role in a causal interpretation of >quantum mechanics remained controversial. I expect, though I have not worked out the details, that Conte's generalization of QM is compatible with Bohm's interpretation. The difference, as Conte has pointed out directly several times, is that Bohm's formulation assumes point-like particles. If we assume that particles have some kind of "real" extension in space (order 1 fm), quite apart from the wavefunction, itself, then the classical mechanics which underlies Bohm's interpretation must be altered. But what Conte is proposing goes further. In Bohm's interpretation, the motions (velocities) of point-like particles are *guided* by the forms (primarily the spatial rate of change of the phase) of their wavefunctions. But, the particles themselves have *no* reciprical influence on the wavefunctions. In Conte's model, the spatially extended particles *would* have an effect on the wavefunction due to the nature of physical space "inside" the particle versus the normal properties of empty space. It is not clear to me that it makes good sense to speak of two spatially extended "particles" as if they could occupy the exact same physical region. On the other hand, the idea that these particles *in very close proximity* might interact with each other through their effects on each other's wavefunctions does seem credible. > Its relevance could >emerge in the representation of the "hoping" integral in the >tJ model.You could also use pseudopotential transformation >and the conventional Schrodinger equation to define the non >local operator 1 - | > <|. >Also for this way the problem is and remains:you should use the >transformation showing that it depends on the INTEGRAL OF >WAVE OVERLAPPING.You should obtain the same form of >my Hulthen potential. I obviously need a lot more time to renew my understand of the psuedo-potential method and to apply it to the details of this theory. > This explains that we may use Hulthen >potential for binding of a pair of electrons into a sinle copper >pair in a superconductor,and we should have a new calculation >for the super conducting transition temperature.Results:we should >have the representation of a copper pair of electrons in a strongly >correlated system,and,AGAIN,it should be a state of mutual overlap of >the paired electron wavefunctions:the cold fusion (e,e) in super- >conductivity. A small correction: the correct phrase is "Cooper pair", after the person who is recognized as first using this approach to explain superconductivity. Prof. Conte, have you completed this suggested calculation in relation to the known properties of superconductors? Of special interest are the properties of the recently discovered high temperature (liquid nitrogen) superconductors. No completely adequate theory for their properties is yet available. If your approach using Biquat. QM produces new results, I think this would be appreciated much more rapidly by the conventional physics community than any results we might see that apply to "cold fusion". Such is the "politics" of current science. >3-Attention,please.We must have only singlet stable states for the >spinning particles.Triplets couplings or other,under total mutual pe- >netration,should imply only repulsive non local non linear....interactions >with the spinning of each particle inside and against that of the other. > ... ,in n= p+e in biquaternion quantum mechanics >we have only one single level.We cannot have excited states at distan- >ces < 1 fm,all the excited states imply greater distances. So, one returns to the question of the role (and/or existence) of the neuterio in your theory. You have written elsewhere (in reply to Bill Beaty) that we have: electron --> electron + (anti) neuterio (inside nucleus) (in free space) but so far you have not presented any calculations to demonstrate this. Of particular interest is the explanation of the observed energy spectrum of the electron during beta decay (as interpreted as quantum tunnelling). I think this must be clearly discussed before one can take seriously the very radical "Rutherford" model of the neutron. In reverse, does the role of the neutrino enter into the formation of the (p,e-) bound state as Bill Beaty's question implied? If this is the case, then the probability of the formation of the necessary "3-body" coincidence would seem to be very remote, indeed. The current "standard model" denies that one need to think of unstable particles as necessarily "made-up-of" the particles into which they decay. I.e. Although the neutron decays into a proton, an electron and an anti-neuterino, the neutron is considered to be an elementary particle, on par with the proton. In fact the neutron is represented by almost the same three combinations of quarks as the proton, except that one of the quarks has a -2/3 charge instead of a +1/3 charge. It is considered that the decay products are "created" as part of the process of decay. Obviously this model is very different than the "quantum tunnelling" model that you describe. This brings to mind another aspect that your model must address. In connection with the Rutherford model, Heisenburg (I believe) proposed that it was the exchange of the bound electron between a proton and a neutron that accounted for the observed short range strong nuclear force between these particles - directly analogous to molecular forces in the hydrogen molecule H2. This approach seemed quite sound but ran into some difficult technical problems. Using Conte's generalized QM, it should be possible to revive this approach to account for the strong force. No special massive boson particles would be needed. Is this possible? Prof. Conte, can you demonstrate, for example, a calculation of the binding energy of the deuteron (p,n) on the basis of Biquat. QM? >Finally,dr.Bill Page and other components of vortex,may we begin to >encourage the experimentation? It appears to me that we are reaching >a sufficient degree of deepening.In addition,please,may we make deeper >the results of Kamada,also consulting dr.Kamada(if possible).It appears >to me that Kamada et al.(but certainly also other researchers) obtained >good results to test initially the cold fusion as predicted by the Biquater- >nion Quantum Mechanics.In case,do you know the E-mail of dr.Kamada? Unfortunately, I do not have an email address for Dr. Kamada. The most recent mailing address is from the copy of his paper in the proceedings of ICCF5 (fifth international conference on cold fusion), shown below: Dr. K. Kamada National Institute for Fusion Science Nagoya, 464-01 Japan and the address of the co-authors of the ICCF5 paper H. Kinoshita and H. Takahashi Center for Advanced Research Energy Technology Department of Engineering Hokkaido University Sapporo, 062, Japan Perhaps Jed Rothwell or other members of Vortex-l may have more information on how to contact Kamada. If you are not able to obtain copies of Kamada's papers, I would be willing to send them to you by fax or ordinary mail. Please confirm that the fax number shown in your file is the appropriate place to send them. Finally, for those of you how may not know, my original interest in Kamada's work related specifically to his use of Aluminum as the "host" material for his experiments. Arthur Wasserman published a claim in Fusion Technology (1992) that excess heat is observed during electrolysis using Aluminum cathodes in hydrochloric acid electrolytes. My first and only attempt at experimentation in "cold fusion" was to reproduce this result. I did so to my own satisfaction which has resulted in my continuing interest in this subject and motivation to study its theoretical aspects more deeply. I did not formally attempt to publish these results but I have advertised the fact in hopes that someone else might attempt this replication in a more serious way and with more appropriate tools than I was capable of. If anyone would like to know more about these experiments, just ask. Note: there was some discussion about this last year in the ICCF5 discussion group which can be accessed via URL: http://xfactor.wpi.edu:8080/iccf5.hmtl Look up Aluminum ... in the subject index there. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 22:50:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA19745 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA19649 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 07:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA12926; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:49:09 -0500 Date: 25 Jan 96 10:46:48 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Should be: PROSPECTIVE customers Message-ID: <960125154647_72240.1256_EHB123-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: "We should not blame Toole or other perspective customers." I meant prospective . . . Nattering on for a moment here . . . You might wonder why they Wrights clammed up in 1905, after years of openness, public demonstrations, publication, lectures, and a public flight of 24 miles in 39 minutes on October 5. They shut up after that day on the advice of their patent attorney. It is the same reason most CF scientists are so secretive today. I say to hell with patent attorneys! They should file promptly and then shut up and not interfere in business decisions. In 1906 the patent was granted, all secrets were revealed, yet the Wrights remained silent, like Pons and Fleischmann. I don't know why. Perhaps it was out of habit. Perhaps it was in response to the years of hysterical attacks and calumny. I think they suffered a case of the Inventor's Disease. It was, as Combs and many others have written, "a period that today we must regard as bordering on the tragic." They "went underground." They "made a definite decision to embark on a course that many consider to have been detrimental to the continuing development of aviation, not only at that time, but for several years to come." Combs describes this "catastrophic" mistake and concludes: "By remaining behind their wall of silence and secrecy, known only by a trickle of information from such men as Chanute, or others who had seen them fly, the Wrights condemned themselves to steady criticism. People who were interested in what they had accomplished and tried to unearth details, only to be rebuffed by the brothers, concluded that the Wrights were unable to perform what they claimed. And if the Wrights were telling the truth, then their having erected a wall around themselves would only work to the benefit of other individuals and governments, for their refusal to fly gave the others the time they needed to work on flying machines." - Kill Devil Hills, p. 252 Does that sound familiar? Do we know other distinguished, sensitive, brilliant scientists who have made the same mistake? People holed up in places like Nice, France, or the University of Osaka in Arata Hall -- on the advice of their patent attorneys? Yup. It is Santayana's dictum in action: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Well, it worked out in the end. The Wrights were vindicated. Cold fusion will eventually triumph, when Jed (or someone else) manages to drag one of these scientists kicking and screaming into the marketplace. Which brings to mind another of Santayana's remarks: The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 22:50:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA26256 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26016 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA02939; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:06:25 -0500 Date: 25 Jan 96 10:05:00 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: GPU's response is CETI's fault Message-ID: <960125150500_72240.1256_EHB162-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex GPU's upper management has rejected the idea of doing CF research. This response does not surprise me. The reasons they gave also do not surprise me: "V.P. Toole told us that it was 'Not in our charter to follow this line of work. Our charter is to run our existing generating facilities at the lowest possible cost.'" (Quoted by Frank Znidarsic) "In the 8 months that I have been working for Ron, I have grown to respect him -- you can see from his understanding of your concepts today that he is a very intelligent person. I think it is important to understand that he did not close the door on this, only that he needs to be convinced that it is worth pursuing in this competitive arena." (Described by Rick Seese) CETI must be delighted with this outcome. They have been actively trying to discourage interest in the field for the last month, and now they have succeeded in a big way. They want peace and quiet so they can go off into the corner with their strategic development partners and improve the technology for a few more years. The day before the MIT symposium they told me that under no circumstances would they sell demonstration kits to academic or corporate scientists. Even if I line up enough capital to pay their exorbitant licensing fee and to guarantee production, they will not sell to me if my intention is to sell scientific demonstration kits. This may shock the readers of this forum, but I agree with Toole and I think that Rick Seese's analysis is right on the mark. GPU should *not* invest any money in the CETI process, they should not get involved in the field until they are certain of three things: 1. The effect is real. 2. The process is probably economically competitive. 3. CETI is a legitimate business they can deal with. I myself am satisfied on points 1 and 2, but I am not sure about #3. GPU cannot verify any of the three. They have not investigated, tested, and analyzed the technology with due diligence. They cannot investigate. CETI is preventing them. Under the circumstances, it would be grossly irresponsible for them to proceed with any investment. If the people at CETI are going to act like Meyer and the other fruitcakes, then points #1 and #2 make no difference. Since you cannot deal with Meyer in a business relationship it makes no difference what he has or how good it is. If Meyer had a machine to convert lead into gold it would be of no economic value to anyone and of no interest to any sane businessman, because Meyer will not sell it or show it. You cannot compel him to do so. He is determined to take his secrets to the grave. Many inventors and scientists act this way. >From a business point of view, the situation is simple. Any product, no matter how good, must be marketed. There is an old folk saying: "build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door." Any businessman knows that is wrong. The world will NOT beat a path to your door -- you have to go knocking on the world's door. No product ever sells itself, especially not a radically new product that most people think cannot exist. In 1908, two years after the got a patent, the Wright Brothers had not sold a single airplane. Nobody had replicated them, nobody believed them. Finally, in 1908, their financial backers forced them to demonstrate and market the product, and within a few years they were millionaires and there were over 100,000 people working in the airplane industry. Another essential rule of business is: don't talk, show the product. Nobody believed the Wrights because they refused to show the product (after 1905, that is). The same is true of the most advanced airplanes today, and it is true of any other product. Harry Combs, a senior executive with Learjet, commented on Orville's famous flight at Fort Myer, Virginia, that finally convinced the U.S. Wilbur flew in Paris a month before that demonstration. He had been on the front page of every major European newspaper for weeks, hailed as a conquering hero, but no U.S. newspaper reported a word of it, and nobody in the U.S. believed it. Combs writes: "The fact that Wilbur had been flying successfully in Europe more than a month before Orville's brief circling dash around the army post had never really sunk into the American consciousness. It was something the people had ignored. It had happened thousands of miles away, so it 'wasn't real.' Again we are faced with the old saw that until you've seen it, you can't understand it or even believe in its reality. Nothing seems to have changed from the Wright *Flyer* to the most advanced machines built today, and anyone who seeks success in the aviation industry, right now, must never forget this basic rule of marketing new aircraft: Observers and prospects who are not part of the industry itself must be *shown*. They must be flown, and the performance of the new product must be demonstrated." - Kill Devil Hills, p. 292 (Houghton Mifflin: 1979) Relating this to the present day, the fact that MITI announced they are putting another $100 million into CF and the fact that they are sponsoring the Sixth International Conference cuts no ice in Pennsylvania. To the average person, Japan is so far away it might as well be on Mars. A power company executive in Pennsylvania will not pay any attention to MITI. On the other hand, if you demonstrate a cell right in front of him he will believe it and he will be spurred into action. That is human nature. If CETI wanted to market this product, they could easily satisfy the legitimate concerns of people like Toole. I could do it in a two weeks. They do *not* want to market it. They have explained their strategy to me in detail. Until they change their minds there is nothing we can do about it. We should not blame Toole or other perspective customers. They are acting like rational businessmen. They are doing what they are paid to do. Frank should not talk rashly of quitting. At this point, a reader might wonder who the heck is Jed Rothwell to be pontificating about how to market things, and why should he know more than Jim Reding, president of CETI. The answer is that I may not be Bill Gates, but I do know the ABCs of business. I have designed, marketed and sold products, answered technical calls, gone to customer sites, and satisfied customer requirements for twenty years. Reding has never done any of those jobs, not for one day. I say his marketing strategy is lousy, and I will still say that even if he succeeds brilliantly. I will say that he succeeded in spite of their strategy, not because of it. The product is so good that a lousy marketing strategy might work. But if they do not market at all, they will sell nothing. As King Lear said to Cordelia: Nothing can come of nothing. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 00:58:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA11282 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 00:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA11273 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 00:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA26622; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:41:59 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 03:37:39 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: GPU's response Message-ID: <960126083738_100433.1541_BHG80-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex It is interesting - whatever Jed says - to watch the way the ostriches head for the nearest patch of sand the moment there's any sign of trouble. I saw a nice comment in an old Analog, to the effect that 'future shock' is an unpleasant senstaion felt by those who have not been paying attention. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 01:09:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA13266 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 00:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA13256 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 00:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA03296; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:56:50 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 03:56:16 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: vortex list Subject: vtx: Re: Various comments Message-ID: <960126085615_75110.3417_CHK44-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robin, >> Just to borrow a theme from science fiction for a moment, suppose that at regular intervals the earth passes through something in space (some directed radiation field ? e.g. from a pulsar?) that has an effect on the minds of the whole population of the planet? :^) << It's called the 'Photon Belt' and there are several books on it (though I wouldn't suggest reading them ). We're supposedly going into the fringes of one right now. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 02:27:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA20483 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA20469 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA19307; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 04:47:12 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 04:44:38 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: More o-u motors Message-ID: <960126094437_100433.1541_BHG134-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex [by the way, if anybody wants to repost this to freenrg, thye are welcome] Chris Morriss kindly mailed me a report from the London Financial Times. FT Jan 23, P14. "Magnet against physics" Three British engineers are claiming to have invented a new form of power generation which uses a magnet to turn a small amount of power into a much larger one. The inventors are calling the machine the Mylenium Motor, because they believe that by the turn of the century - the millennium - it will be capable of running a vehicle or even a power station. They are not divulging details of how it works because they have yet to have patents registered, apart from in the UK. But Joe Marquis, one of the inventors, says a prototype has been built powered by a 12-volt battery producing five amps of current. "We have found a way to get the magnet to turn the central core of the motor, which drives two alternators. These each produce 50 or 60 amps. It is a quirk, it goes against physics," says Marquis, a marine engineer who developed the motor with chemical engineer Brian HAyes and electrical engineer Philip Powell. [one must assume here that they mean 12V vehicle alternators, they are claiming 10:1 - 12:1]. Experts are sceptical. "You can't go against physics," says Rex HArris, a professor at the School of Metallurgy and MAterials, Birmingham university. "It is a nonsense to say you can get more energy out than you are putting in." However, according to Harris, permanent magnets are accounting for a growing percentage of electric motors because they can make motors more efficient. In conventional electric motors, electromagnetism is created [sic] by by passing current through a conductor wound into a coil. Marquis says he and his fellow inventors are not "jumping up and down", but he does believe their new motor could have a "massive impact". [no comment] A box the size of two television sets could run a house, he says, and the motor could be scaled up or run in series, or scaled down to produce a micro-engine. The initial power source could come from the mains, via a resistor. [end] Chris also sends me a report on 'black LEDs' - shades of the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy. Defence Research Agency at Malvern have made a lamp which shines black, using GaAs technology. Much talk of making cloaking devices! It 'defies Kirchoff's Law' by absorbing IR without emitting it. That's from one magazine, there is more in Electronic Times, 25 January. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 06:47:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA20239 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA20215 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA07929 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:28:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199601261428.AA07929@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:28:27 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: Rick Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 09:27:45 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:04:43 +0900 Subject: vtx: Re: Rick Seese at GPU Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On 25 Jan 96 at 5:07, Eugene Mallove wrote: > Frank, > > Tell Rick Seese at GPU and "Ron the Tool" to stuff it! Tell them that we are > after *their* jobs! With a little help from Japan, we in this field are going > to reduce their polluting empires to dust. Tell them that they are spouting > the monumental arrogance of the horse and buggy folks when automobiles were > introduced. > > > Oh, yes, and tell them to subscribe to Infinite Energy, since we are going to > publish their nonsense in our pages. You better have another job by then, eh? > > Gene > > Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief > INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion > and New Energy Technnology > Cold Fusion Technology > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Fax: 603-224-5975 > Phone: 603-228-4516 > > I have been a little worried that the "top 50" company that was interested in CETI might be an oil company. Interested in supressing the invention. Please reassure me that this is not so? Regards, Robin it is not. I would like to tell you who but Gene seems bent on getting me into trouble. If I can't tell the group without fear of my information being used against me I can't say much at all. I think Gene has been out to get me ever since I did not send him a copy of the tape I took of the private CETI demo in Anaheim. I agreed prior to taking the tape that I would not disclose it. I told Gene that I honor my agreements, I will not back stab CETI. Now it appears that the only thing I can do is to keep quiet. Frank Znidarsic Fortunately for me I placed a lot of money in the stock marked in companies like Iomega. I only have to work for 4 more years. Iomega is not the backer. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 07:11:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA24904 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA24896 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-106.austin.eden.com (net-1-106.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.106]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA04013 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:57:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:57:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601261457.IAA04013@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: ersatz bead offer X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We have found a company that specializes in metal-coated glass beads. They have agreed to make beads similar to the Patterson beads for what seems to be a very reasonable price. Present specifications are: bare beads: 1 - 1.5 mm dia soda lime glass activation: monolayer of Sn/Pd electroless deposition layer 1: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni electroless deposition layer 2: 1 +/- .5 micron Pd electroless deposition layer 3: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni Note that these beads are glass, not plastic. Hopefully, this will not affect their performance and, in fact, will allow higher operating temperatures. We are willing to sell small batches (e.g. 1-10 cubic centimeters) of these beads to interested parties. The price is $50 per cubic centimeter of beads. Judging from this attractive price, I'd say that my speech about the exciting commercial potential of these beads had some positive effect on the supplier. Delivery has been quoted at 4-6 weeks after receipt of order. I will wait a couple of days to gauge the level of interest in these beads and then place an appropriate order. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 07:22:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA26675 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA26630 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-106.austin.eden.com (net-1-132.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.132]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA04814 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:10:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:10:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601261510.JAA04814@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Jed!! are you OK? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >This may shock the readers of this forum, but......they should not get involved >in the field until they are certain of three things: > >1. The effect is real. Jed, is that really you? :-) Shocked in Texas From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 08:06:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA05046 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA05020 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaaex09439; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27563; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:52:48 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 983751070096026FEPRI; 26 Jan 1996 07:51:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 26 Jan 1996 07:51:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: GPU's response is CETI's fault To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/26/96 07:51:37 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/25/96 22:50 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: GPU's response is CETI's fault Jed: You are so right , righT, rigHT, riGHT, rIGHT, RIGHT! Again! CETI had better be prepared to be BURIED by anyone who is NOT crazy. Let me give you a hint: I and various associates are not crazy. - SCOTT: DON'T VARY THE KNOWN RECIPEIT! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 08:56:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12074 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12017 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA21412; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:27:18 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 11:20:13 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: vtx: Gene does not mean it! Message-ID: <960126162012_72240.1256_EHB97-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser >INTERNET:fznidarsic@gpu.com Frank Znidarsic wrote: "I would like to tell you who [the big company working with CETI is] but Gene seems bent on getting me into trouble. If I can't tell the group without fear of my information being used against me I can't say much at all. I think Gene has been out to get me ever since I did not send him a copy of the tape I took of the private CETI demo in Anaheim." Wait! Wait. Calm down. Gene did not mean it. That's just his way of being sarcastic and blowing off steam. It is akin to my statements that it is okay for a major utility company manager to pretend that Japan and MITI do not exist. Gene certainly does not plan to do anything that would endanger your job. Please don't worry about that. Anyway, the big company that may or may not be cutting a deal with CETI is Motorola. I have no idea where the negotiations stand. I am sick and tired of covering up for CETI's behind-the-scenes machinations. If they refuse to talk to me because I have revealed that fact, too bad for them. I got that information a long time ago from sources outside of CETI. They have been trying to put a lid on my reporting. They even had the chutzpa to try and keep me from measuring the temperature at Power-Gen on Day 2! I said very well, I'll go home a few days early and post reports all over Internet describing the roached control cell and saying CETI refuses to let anyone verify the results. That changed their minds in a flash! Sanity was re-established. Later on, I found out that they are using my e-mail report "CETI Demonstrates 1,300 Watt Cold Fusion Reactor" as part of their sales package. They continue to try to block information and prevent me from reporting on their activity even they find my useful. What a bunch of yoyos! However, as I have said, all of this crazy behavior is caused by the so-called high level negotiations with Motorola and others. Anyone who has dealt with large corporations in contract negotiations will understand. The process drives even the most level headed sane businessman up the wall. Companies like IBM, AT&T, GE, Motorola, Hitachi have a style of negotiating and establishing business relationships that defies logic and common sense. It makes the "Dilbert" comic strip seem reasonable. It is chaos snowed under by endless rules, mediated by flying squads of corporate lawyers. They "reorganize" every week, which means that a new squad of lawyers show up and you have to start the whole rigmarole over again. The lawyers names are different, but the faces, clothes, and manner of speaking are the same, so I suspect they are actually sent over by Central Casting. "I agreed prior to taking the tape that I would not disclose it. I told Gene that I honor my agreements, I will not back stab CETI. Now it appears that the only thing I can do is to keep quiet." Stop worrying about Gene. I suggest you stab CETI so hard that the sword comes poking out the front. Later, they will thank you for it. If I was you I would tell them that the negotiations are stalled for the time being, and that if they want a contract, they will have to provide you with a kilowatt demonstration cell before the end of the month. Any corporation that I have ever worked for or owned would do that without a moment's hesitation. Heck, I'd have a demo unit on the plane with an engineer that afternoon. When a prime customer calls you and says "jump," the proper response is: "Yes sir! How high?" That's how you do business in the real world. To clarify my real, honest-to-goodness opinion about utility managers and MITI, I do think that GPU is acting responsible at the present time, although their motivation may be wrong. They *cannot* just barge ahead without exercising due diligence, proper in-house laboratory verification and all the rest. No sane manager would. I sure wouldn't! Heck, I have seen two demos and talked to three university professors who replicated and/or verified, but I myself would not pay CETI any money until I got a gadget and tested it myself for a month, with my own equipment, with assistance from top outside experts like Sevior and Little. Any other policy would be unthinkable. It would be so irresponsible that I would consider it a serious breach of fiduciary responsibility to the stockholders. It would be a six-story-high floodlit engraved invitation to get sued or investigated by the SEC. The claims about this device are so far out of the ordinary that a business manager must take every reasonable step before committing company funds for purchase of materials or a licensing agreement. When someone like Meyer prevents you from taking measurements in his lab and refuses to supply you with a demonstration unit, you have no alternative. As a businessman you must not deal with him, no matter how good his supposed product is. After dealing with Patapov for several months, I discovered to my great distress that he is a nut. He started out acting like a sane, reasonable, open businessman, but after I paid him I found out he is a flake and a thief. In his case I risked my own money. I would never have risked company money. It would be like taking thousands of dollars of company funds to Las Vegas and betting them in a poker game. It is perfectly okay for a private individual to take a vacation in Vegas and blow a few thousand bucks of his own money. I would never do it, but many people enjoy that sort of thing. But a person who gambles with company money should be fired instantly, even if he wins and returnes the money plus profits. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 09:18:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA17899 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA17865 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA15800 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:57:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199601261657.AA15800@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:57:10 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: jed Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 11:56:27 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Thank you Jed. The big M dropped in price to from $80/share to a low of $45 / share. I think is a good deal now regardless of what CETI does. You know what I did when it hit the low. I been following it for some time now. It's back up to $52 and I believe that it is a good value. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 09:35:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA19995 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA19947 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA11865; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:06:00 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 12:03:25 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: vtx: ersatz bead offer Message-ID: <960126170324_72240.1256_EHB26-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; Scott Little > INTERNET:little@eden.com Scott Little writes: "We have found a company that specializes in metal-coated glass beads. They have agreed to make beads similar to the Patterson beads for what seems to be a very reasonable price. We are willing to sell small batches (e.g. 1-10 cubic centimeters) of these beads to interested parties. The price is $50 per cubic centimeter of beads." Great! Put me down for 10 cc, $500 worth. I'll mail you the check first thing next month. You do not need to send the beads to me, I cannot test them. Just hang on to them. If your tests show excess heat I'll make up a list of 5 people to sent them to. If you run out of your own stock of beads before you get a definitive answer go ahead and tap into mine. I hope these experts know what they are doing. I presume they have reviewed the patents carefully. Right? I urge you to coordinate with Mark (a.k.a. 'The Hugo') on this, to avoid wasteful duplication of effort. In response to my comment that GPU should not get involved with the field until they are certain the effect is real, Scott wrote: "Jed, is that really you? :-)" Yup. I am, after all, a conservative businessman. Different standards of behavior are appropriate to different roles in life. Is it okay to risk money on CF? That depends on who you are, what your role is, and how much money you mean. Consider three cases: 1. A scientist working at GPU. It would be irresponsible *not* to investigate cold fusion, attend conferences, and conduct in-house experiments. Scientists are supposed to take large risks with the unknown. That's their job. 2. A business manager. Until Mr. Scientist does his job, it would crazy for the manager to sign a million dollar contract with CETI. Or even buy a $20,000 gadget. Now if the CETI gadget was inherently expensive and exceptionally difficult to verify, requiring months of effort, then maybe the manager would have to approve a preliminary research budget of a $100,000 for the purchase of outside equipment. But as we all know the gadget costs CETI a hundred bucks and any scientist could verify it in a few days, so there is no justification for risking a lot of money on it. 3. Jed Rothwell, with his own money. If he feels like spending $30,000 per year on this stuff, that's nobody's business but his. And his wife's. To give a parallel example, a computer programmer might spend $5000 on a brand new experimental computer that works half the time, doesn't even get close to the manufacturer's benchmarks, and runs the beta version of the operating system. A programmer is supposed to deal with machines that barely work. That's his job. But if the office manager bought a hundred of those experimental machines for $500,000 intended for everyday use in the accounting department, that would be grossly irresponsible. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 09:54:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA24471 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA24432 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaafd25586; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17997; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:28:49 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 192727090096026FEPRI; 26 Jan 1996 09:27:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 26 Jan 1996 09:27:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: jed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/26/96 09:27:26 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 01/26/96 09:19 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: jed Yes Frank. I don't think you will lose a penny on big M. So your venture is break even at least, and maybe even growth! Congrads on the guts to take a risk, which some people seem not to have. (Myself included, Cluck, cluck.) MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 10:36:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA01447 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA01179 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04882 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:03:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199601261803.AA04882@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:03:53 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: risk Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 13:03:09 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Hugo that's the difference between science and business the risk. Today I bought a company AIC. If MOT goes up I may sell it. By the time this CETI thing amounts to anything I may be in my next life. AIC = Asset Investors Corp. Frank Z Hugo do what I did. buy some MOT buy some AIC...Its' to late the buying opportunity for IOMG is over. IOMG = Iomega Hugo..I'ts amazing how your tone changes when we are talking about you own money. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 11:43:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01863 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01826 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA24443; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:19:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:19:15 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Hope In-Reply-To: <199601240800.AAA15239@big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Michael Mandeville wrote: > At 12:04 PM 1/23/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Charles, > > > >Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! > > > >Your converstion to Word 6.0 format is excellent. It seems that > >all of the formatting and special symbols are retained. Now I > >finally have something that can be read (and understood?) > > > >Cheers, > >Bill Page. > > > > > I am glad to hear that someone has converted into Word 6.0. Where are they > stashed? Can I obtain a copy? Were the text versions ever corrected for > the missing formulas? I sent copies to Page and Beatty. If Beatty hasn't put the Word 6.0 format on his page yet, all those who want copies can send me requests. Be advised the files will be uuencoded. I did not make any corrections to the files. > ____________________________________ > MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing > Michael Mandeville, publisher > mwm@aa.net > http://www.aa.net/~mwm > > Charles Hope From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 12:31:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA10159 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA10090 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA05945; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:04:56 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601262004.AA05945@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: vtx: What I've been told about CETI operating conditions. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:04:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca (Martin Sevior) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Everyone, well now that it appears we have two routes to duplication of CETI cells (Mark Hugo and Scott Little's company) I thought I'd share what I've been told about the optimum operating conditions. 1. There must be flowing electrolyte. I don't know if this is required to make the cells work or whether it's required to fool a flow calorimeter into believing it sees XS heat. 2. The electrolyte is 1 - 3 Molar Li2SO4. 3. The temperature of the electrolyte should be between 50 - 60 C. Actually I was also told to watch the temperature closely and that cells could go into thermal run away since the efficiency apparently increases with temperature. 4. The current density in the beads is in the region of 30 milliamps per cm cubed. This current density can apperently vary by up to a factor of 10. 5. Under no circumstances should the cell be "reversed biased". ie Never put positive voltage on the beads. 6. The thinner the Ni/Pd/Ni layers the faster the cell "turns on". Apparently 1 micron Ni/Pd/Ni requires about 10 hours of charging (I don't know what current) before the XS heat starts. Cells made with 0.1 micron Ni/Pd/Ni layers require less than an hour. I was told one "thin" cell turns in 10 minutes. No doubt there are more tricks to getting the things to work. I can suggest one that springs to mind. Make sure that the bubbles from the electrolysis come from throughout the cell volume. If this isn't happenning the hydrogen isn't being loaded throughout the volume. Getting this to occur probably requires tuning the electrical resistance through the beads to match the electrical resistance through the electrolyte. This could be tricky. When CETI was an open company prospective "duplicators" were required to spend 2 weeks learning how to make the cells work. Good luck everyone! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 12:42:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA12816 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA12767 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA05956; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:17:27 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601262017.AA05956@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: Gene does not mean it! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:17:26 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca (Martin Sevior) In-Reply-To: <960126162012_72240.1256_EHB97-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 26, 96 11:20:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Wrote: > > information a long time ago from sources outside of CETI. They have been > trying to put a lid on my reporting. They even had the chutzpa to try and keep > me from measuring the temperature at Power-Gen on Day 2! I said very well, > I'll go home a few days early and post reports all over Internet describing > the roached control cell and saying CETI refuses to let anyone verify the > results. That changed their minds in a flash! Sanity was re-established. Later > on, I found out that they are using my e-mail report "CETI Demonstrates 1,300 > Watt Cold Fusion Reactor" as part of their sales package. > Jed, is that the report that says the cell produced 1300 watts for 2 hours? Dennis Cravens was quite adament that it was only for 15 minutes and he's their Chief Scientist! Is that fraudulant advertising? Does that mean someone from CETI is monitoring this discussion list? Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 12:51:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA14081 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA14050 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA12541; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:23:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Re: Rick Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:46:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Re: Rick [snip] > Frank Znidarsic > > Fortunately for me I placed a lot of money in the stock marked in companies > like Iomega. I only have to work for 4 more years. Iomega is not > the backer. Frank, Your enthusiasm and energy has been inspiring. It is disheartening to witness your present difficulties, even though they are predictable given CETI's present state. It looks like you have a good job with some people who care about you, though, and that is a treasure. You live in a beautiful part of the country, and you have your spare time to look forward to. You are very lucky. If you are only 4 years away from retirement, I strongly suggest you get your money out of the stock market ASAP and buy rental property. It is like having a part time job and is very nice for retirement, but you have to do it while employed so you can pay for your learning mistakes. You get a lot more bang for your buck, and it is much more reliable income. This is advice I have taken myself. I have played the stock market and futures markets. Neither compared to the rewards of paying off my mortgage and then buying rental property and paying off the mortgage. You get to have your standard deduction and write off the rental interest as well. For the most part you can plan (spreadsheet) every detail for years in advance. I retired at age 47. I don't have much spare money or income, but neither do I have to suffer fools and bureaucrats. It has always amazed me that fools and foolish policies usually stay empowered at least 3 times as long one would expect. Be patient, your vindication and rewards will come. Pay Caesar his due, and then have a lot of fun! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 12:53:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA03532 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA03507 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA13334; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:30:50 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 14:20:58 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: A little philosophising Message-ID: <960126192057_100433.1541_BHG57-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: TO:Vortex I was glad to see the various exchanges here today. Let me make it quite clear that I agree with Jed every inch of the way. Including his remarks about Gene Mallove's comments. Gene happens to think very highly of Frank Znidarsic's work. On what he and Jed and I are trying to do, it is solely to advance the field. OK, OK, doing that may conceivably be to our benefit one day - maybe we get to write some of the books later! Wanting to advance the field (across the board) does not mean that our minds have to be so far open that our brains fall out. Gene and I got persuaded by somebody to look a machine a few days ago. This one seemed to come with quite a good pedigree and a sensible man to demonstrate it. But in fact it was a failure. OK, it might have some validity, but it certainly *displayed* exactly none at all. Same with Gene's testing of the Yusmar. Same with my present efforts to do calorimetry on the device I reported here recently. I've met some of these outright 'believer' types, it is horribly embarrassing. But, being an optimist rather than a "Skeptic" is perfectly legitimate, and absolutely does *not* mean one has to be an incompetent at doing any investigation, or that one is willing to get involved in any fudging in reporting if the device is not any good. Equally, Jed is right about business. Business is a different ballgame altogether. Something which works one day may well not work the next, so part of any whacko inventor's stock-in-trade has to be a full *phenomenological* control over his machine. CETI appear to have this or be very close to it. Fine, so now they are making asses of themselves. But the academics who fudge reports so that they do not have to sign on the line for a device being o-u are just as bad as the crazy men. The ones who try to trash machines like CETI's with specious pseudoscience are dishonest. They have more excuse for their lack of honesty, but on the other hand they do more harm because their words have more weight. It may be argued that Jed's efforts on such venues as s.p.f are not worth the effort, but what I find endlessly remarkable is the sort of nonsense which supposedly well-educated people often spout to discredit what he says. People might wonder why - for example - I report on stuff like the supposed o-u motor in the Financial Times. I do that not because I believe them, but because such reports may be of interest or value to people on this list. Information-dissemination is a perfectly valid and probably very useful activity. Hmm. On the one hand, where are the numbers, the validations? On the other, how come so many people are claiming the same thing? I will try to contact these people on Monday. Maybe they'll let me do a black-box test, and I could report here. But for now I'm concentrating on the calorimetry job, which I intend to base on cpaturing as much of the heat as possible, then doing 'dunk calorimetry' into water to find out how much I've trapped for how much input energy. At least I know something about how easy it is to trash calorimetry, I'll try to make it fully 'first principle'. Yes, I *am* banging the drum for us three. I happen to think we serve a useful function here and elsewhere. Admittedly it's what we want to do, even if it is often painful in various ways. Hah! Somebody on the TV news says that a good fry-up (like a typical English breakfast) may raise your cholesterol but it keeps you happy and less likely to suicide. I vote for that! Better live happy than be so miserable in your fat-free body that the only prospect remaining is to swallow all your antidepressants in one go... Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 15:38:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA18291 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA18266 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p4.aa.net (s3c0p4.aa.net [204.157.220.136]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA04321 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:10:46 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601262310.PAA04321@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:11:32 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: A little philosophising Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: BRAVO!!! ENCORE ENCORE ENCORE At 02:20 PM 1/26/96 EST, you wrote: >TO:Vortex > >I was glad to see the various exchanges here today. Let me make it quite clear >that I agree with Jed every inch of the way. Including his remarks about Gene >Mallove's comments. Gene happens to think very highly of Frank Znidarsic's >work. > >On what he and Jed and I are trying to do, it is solely to advance the field. >OK, OK, doing that may conceivably be to our benefit one day - maybe we get to >write some of the books later! Wanting to advance the field (across the board) >does not mean that our minds have to be so far open that our brains fall out. >Gene and I got persuaded by somebody to look a machine a few days ago. >This one seemed to come with quite a good pedigree and a sensible man to >demonstrate it. But in fact it was a failure. OK, it might have some >validity, but it certainly *displayed* exactly none at all. Same with Gene's >testing of the Yusmar. Same with my present efforts to do calorimetry on the >device I reported here recently. I've met some of these outright 'believer' >types, it is horribly embarrassing. But, being an optimist rather than a >"Skeptic" is perfectly legitimate, and absolutely does *not* mean one has to be >an incompetent at doing any investigation, or that one is willing to get >involved in any fudging in reporting if the device is not any good. > >Equally, Jed is right about business. Business is a different ballgame >altogether. Something which works one day may well not work the next, so part >of any whacko inventor's stock-in-trade has to be a full *phenomenological* >control over his machine. CETI appear to have this or be very close to it. >Fine, so now they are making asses of themselves. > >But the academics who fudge reports so that they do not have to sign on the >line for a device being o-u are just as bad as the crazy men. The ones who >try to trash machines like CETI's with specious pseudoscience are dishonest. >They have more excuse for their lack of honesty, but on the other hand they do >more harm because their words have more weight. It may be argued that Jed's >efforts on such venues as s.p.f are not worth the effort, but what I find >endlessly remarkable is the sort of nonsense which supposedly well-educated >people often spout to discredit what he says. > >People might wonder why - for example - I report on stuff like the supposed o-u >motor in the Financial Times. I do that not because I believe them, but >because such reports may be of interest or value to people on this list. >Information-dissemination is a perfectly valid and probably very useful >activity. Hmm. On the one hand, where are the numbers, the validations? On >the other, how come so many people are claiming the same thing? I will try to >contact these people on Monday. Maybe they'll let me do a black-box test, and >I could report here. But for now I'm concentrating on the calorimetry job, >which I intend to base on cpaturing as much of the heat as possible, then >doing 'dunk calorimetry' into water to find out how much I've trapped for how >much input energy. At least I know something about how easy it is to trash >calorimetry, I'll try to make it fully 'first principle'. > >Yes, I *am* banging the drum for us three. I happen to think we serve a >useful function here and elsewhere. Admittedly it's what we want to do, even >if it is often painful in various ways. > >Hah! Somebody on the TV news says that a good fry-up (like a typical English >breakfast) may raise your cholesterol but it keeps you happy and less likely to >suicide. I vote for that! Better live happy than be so miserable in your >fat-free body that the only prospect remaining is to swallow all your >antidepressants in one go... > >Chris > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 15:43:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA21382 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA21357 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA18516; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:24:56 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 18:18:34 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI does not require flow calorimetry Message-ID: <960126231834_72240.1256_EHB135-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Martin Sevior writes: "I thought I'd share what I've been told about the optimum operating conditions. 1. There must be flowing electrolyte. I don't know if this is required to make the cells work or whether it's required to fool a flow calorimeter into believing it sees XS heat." Say what? Who told you that? I have never heard that one! Patterson used to use static calorimetry. When I first talked to him he used it exclusively. He had the thing hooked up in that flow cell mode, with a very slow flow rate of a fraction of a ml per minute, but his calorimetry was based on one reading: the fluid temperature in the cell (static calorimetry). You have to calibrate in advance with this method. He did that with a variety of imprecise methods, like stepping up to different power levels with the beads before they were loaded enough to generated excess heat (a lousy method once used accidentally by Nate Lewis at Cal Tech), and with a joule heater (more conventional). He always does pushes the electrolyte through. I think that is to keep the bead bed from overheating, but I am not sure why. It may just be because that is what Patterson did in his earlier work for many years, for other applications, and he figures if it works why mess with it. Anyway, you can slow the flow rate down to practically nothing, ignore the inlet and outlet temperatures, and look at the cell temperature only. When I first talked to him he was getting 2 or 3 times input using that method, at very high temperatures. I have other questions about Martin's statement. How does anyone "fool a flow calorimeter into believing it sees XS heat"? What exactly does this mean? By what mechanism does it fool the calorimeter? There are only three parameters: input power, flow, and Delta T temperature. Which one of these three is fooled, how, and why? Why are other, similar flow calorimeters at places like SRI not fooled, or are they all fooled? This "fool the calorimeter" hypothesis needs to be fleshed out before it means anything to me. If Martin's assertion means something, then I can make an equally valid counter-assertion: All electrochemical cells always produce excess heat, and they always have, but most of them fool the calorimeter into thinking that there is no heat. Unless a mechanism is specified, both assertions are equally true. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 15:52:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA23443 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23373 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA25585; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:34:26 -0500 Date: 26 Jan 96 18:30:33 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: That should be 15 minutes Message-ID: <960126233032_72240.1256_EHB134-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Martin Sevior asks: "Jed, is that the report that says the cell produced 1300 watts for 2 hours?" I don't know if they changed that or not. The version I sent out in late December had it for 2 hours. Anybody with a word processor is welcome to go in there and change it. If you have copy on your home page I would be much obliged if you would make that correction. I must remember to change the one in the magazine, too. Hope it's not too late. "Dennis Cravens was quite adament that it was only for 15 minutes and he's their Chief Scientist! Is that fraudulant advertising?" Oh Good Grief no. It is just a minor misunderstanding on my part. Apparently the thing was running at about 500 watts for 2 hours, and he pushed it up high for only a quarter-hour. I was only there for about an hour, and I only heard one instantaneous power reading, when it was up at 1300 watts. I wandered off to bed soon after, because it was midnight my time and I turn into a pumpkin at midnight. I did not take any readings until the next day, so whatever Dennis reports for Day 1 is it. I made no observations. "Does that mean someone from CETI is monitoring this discussion list?" Not as far as I know. They are too busy. Dennis doesn't do e-mail. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 16:24:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA29862 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosal0.triumf.ca (kosal0.Triumf.CA [142.90.107.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA29842 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosal0.triumf.ca; id AA06270; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:07:53 -0800 From: Martin Sevior Message-Id: <9601270007.AA06270@kosal0.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: vtx: CETI does not require flow calorimetry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:07:53 -0800 (PST) Cc: msevior@kosal0.triumf.ca (Martin Sevior) In-Reply-To: <960126231834_72240.1256_EHB135-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Jed Rothwell" at Jan 26, 96 06:18:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed writes: > To: Vortex > > Martin Sevior writes: > > "I thought I'd share what I've been told about the optimum operating > conditions. > > 1. There must be flowing electrolyte. I don't know if this is required > to make the cells work or whether it's required to fool a flow > calorimeter into believing it sees XS heat." > > Say what? Who told you that? I have never heard that one! Patterson used to > I thought I'd already posted on this subject. Maybe you missed it? When Scott and I were designing his new calorimeter that we thought we'd use to test CETI cells we thought it would be nice to a have flow calorimeter inside a static one. When it looked like Scott may not have time to build this system, Scott asked Dennis Cravens how he was going with his static cells. It was the obvious first stage in his plans for a self sustainer. Dennis responded that his static cell showed only 40% excess heat. We immediately went back to the flowing electrolyte calorimeter inside a static calorimeter design. It's really nice with lots of great features. Scott should write it up and publish its characteristics sometime. As for fooling a flow calorimeter, well I don't have a mechanism that would fit all the facts, especially POWERGEN. I'm concerned that all the impressive high-gain CETI cells that I'm aware of use flowing electrolyte calorimetry and as soon as the top Scientist in the outfit tried a static cell the peformanced dropped to almost nothing. If someone has tried a static calorimeter on a high gain cell and seen it work I'd be a lot more comfortable. In any case it appears flowing electrolyte is needed to make them work. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 16:31:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA24152 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24071 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA14446 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:28:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199601261728.AA14446@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:28:10 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: whatidid Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 12:27:28 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I have been following many stocks for some time now. At the end of January the techs hit a low. IOMG down to $38, IBM hit a low, Mot down to $45. The question was where is the bottom? Never buy on the way down. I missed the low on MOT but I got it below $50. I missed the low on IOMEG but within a week it went from $38 to $50. IBM jumped up. I think MOT is going to follow IBM & IOMG I hope I make the right moves. If I do the right stuff I will be joining JED. If I didn't I be broke and the way things are going around here without a job. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 16:33:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA14779 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA14752 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA12863; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:27:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:27:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Wright Brothers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:35:03 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wright Brothers > "The fact that Wilbur had been flying successfully in Europe more > than a month before Orville's brief circling dash around the army > post had never really sunk into the American consciousness. It was > something the people had ignored. It had happened thousands of > miles away, so it a'wasn't real.' Again we are faced with the old > saw that until you've seen it, you can't understand it or even > believe in its reality. A little off topic, but the plane that the Wrights flew in Europe is on display at a Museum at Le Bourget. I mention this because it is well worth seeing, but I only found it because I was looking for it. (It is hanging from the roof, and there is a plaque, but only readable from a catwalk.) I mention this because you really need to look at the Wrights in a different light. They KNEW how to design good planes. The Europeans and the US Army believed that they could deduce by looking whether or not the Wright's planes would fly and copy them. They could not, and therefore even while the Wrights were rubbing everyones nose in it, the "experts" were denying that the Wrights knew anything. Sound familiar? Back to the plane on display in Paris (or for that matter the Wright Flyer in the Smithsonian). Carefully study the wires connecting the upper and lower wings, and look at the wing leading edges. It took over eighty years before someone built a successor (the X-29) to the original Wright Flyer. The "trick" is that if the lower wing starts to twist up, the Byzantine arrangement of the control wires causes the rear of the upper wing to lift, pulling the rear of the lower wing up and cancelling the twist. Of course if the pilot moved the stick he could induce uncancelled warping and thus steer (and trim) the plane. The Wrights spent the rest of their lifes trying to explain to people how "simplifying" the control wire runs caused aircraft to crash. (One of those who listened was my grandfather, who literally learned to fly from the Wright brothers, and flew a Wright persuit biplane throughout WWI. He was much prouder of the fact that he never crashed than of the planes he shot down.) Another innovation of the Wrights that is now gaining popularity again is the canard--a "conventional" tail assembly pushes down to keep the plane level, a canard contributes additional lift. Many of the newest fighters--and the Beech Starship--have canards. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 10:20:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA15793 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA15762 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02948 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:38:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601261638.LAA02948@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:52:54 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Gene does not mean it! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > ... >To clarify my real, honest-to-goodness opinion about utility managers and >MITI, I do think that GPU is acting responsible at the present time, although >their motivation may be wrong. They *cannot* just barge ahead without >exercising due diligence, proper in-house laboratory verification and all the >rest. No sane manager would. I sure wouldn't! Heck, I have seen two demos and >talked to three university professors who replicated and/or verified, but I >myself would not pay CETI any money until I got a gadget and tested it myself >for a month, with my own equipment, with assistance from top outside experts >like Sevior and Little. Any other policy would be unthinkable. It would be so ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >irresponsible that I would consider it a serious breach of fiduciary >responsibility to the stockholders. > ... Jed, you've saved me the trouble of making this statement. I agree whole heartedly. I feel sorry that Frank's attempt at getting something off the ground seems to have failed, but as you say, to expect any other reaction by the utility company seems very unrealistic. Why can't CETI just make a proper scientific report of their work? Their strategy seems extraordinarily wrong! Right on, Jed. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 16:47:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA10046 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA09858 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from delta.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA24090; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 17:17:07 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 17:17:07 +0100 Message-Id: <9601261617.AA24090@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Conte's Theory-reply to Bill Page X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: to dr. Bill Page and to components of vortex. Dear Dr.Bill Page,I appreciate that you make devil's advocate respect to my theory,it is a sacred right that a new theory must be observed with greatest attention,however I have just answered to all the questions that you pose. The first FUNDAMENTAL COLD FUSION is that of electron-electron pairs in superconductivity.This is a COLD FUSION and it is fundamental and it is described by the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics by the CGSE. On the other hand ,the usual quantum mechanics predicts only high repulsive interactions for electron-electron at short distances where no bound state is possible,the inability of the usual quantum mechanics to represent the state,is evidentLet us consider now CGSE.Paired states are spin-up and spin-down,and you may identify again two wavefunctions ,one for the usual Schrodinger equation and the other for CGSE that contains Hulthen potential.We have again the evident effect of wave overlapping with breaking of the SU(2) symmetry(please,see the last=20 number of Physics Essays ,the paper by me entitled New Pauli's Matrices in Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics),and you will find the binding energy of one Cooper pair(excuse me for previous error in type written!).Note that this is ,first of all,confirmation that cold=20 fusion is admitted by Biquaternion Quantum mechanics ,and it is also a confirmation of Biquaternion Quantum mechanics by supercon- ductivity. Let us consider the neutron. Let us clear once for all! The Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics permits the quantitative interpretation of Rutherford's suggestion of the neutron as the=20 COLD FUSION of PROTONS and ELECTRONS into neutrons PLUS NEUTRINOS,we have n =3D (p+ e) + (Plus) neutrinos where we have a renormalization of the intrinsic characteristic of the electron because of the NONLINEAR,NONLOCAL interactions,and, this is the point,of the PROPER Hamiltonian that we have intro- duced in CGSE that,for the first time,contains "forces" that are not derived from a potential.Renormalization under usual hamil- tonian interactions cannot affect intrinsic characteristics of the particles,while nonlocal.nonlinear,proper hamiltonian interactions may modify the characteristics of the particles.The spontaneous decay of the neutron then becomes a tunnel effect for its components: n=3D(p+e)------------> p+e+ antineutrino The ANTINEUTRINO results to be a consequence of the indicated renormalization of the electron ,and originates from e(inside)----------------> e (in vacuum) + antineutrino. Again.I repeat:abandoning point-like approximation for the=20 wavepackets of the electrons, we consider mutual penetration,we have that protons and electrons form neutrons PLUS Neutrinos. The basic concept is that in Biquaternion Quantum mechanics the cold fusion of the particles happens strictly in the MODIFIED MINKOWSKI SPACE-TIME .This implyes that unitary internal=20 spaces are not required ,and it is not required to define a quark at this present level of our analysis. Another basic point of Cold Fusion in Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics is that in its bound states,we have not a spectrum of energy as an atomic spectrum of energy,we have only one,single bound state that is that one of the represented particle.The proton is a medium with its density,when the electron is compressed in its interior,we have an alteration of its structure (in fact,We renormalize its characteristics=20 using other interactions determined by the mutual penetration of wavepackets.)In my opinion,the novel feature of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics regarding massive particles is fundamentally simple, at the limit,we must expect the quarks to be composite. The most intriguing point of your criticism regards the question of the deuteron.Could you immagine that I did not verify the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics with the deuteron?Do you remember when in my first letter to you,I wrote that one basic problem of the nuclear physics (oh!pardon,of the usual quantum mechanics!)has remained unsolved in these fifty years,and it is the problem of an accurate quantitative representation= of the total magnetic moments?The law of addition of the magnetic moments in quantum mechanics is unable to exactly reproduce the values of the=20 experiments.As you know,it is emblematic the case of the deuteron. Well,The Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics calculates all the basic features of the deuteron also included the experimental value of its magnetic=20 moment.We are publishing now this important result,and also it is included in my book on Biquaternion Quantul Mechanics,Volume II that I am=20 preparing. In conclusion,I find the theoretical discussion on the theory of great importance.However,since its experimentation does not require an=20 high cost,why do we not try to arrange experiments that could confirm, I hope,it in brief time?In this sense ,I have answered just to some=20 components of vortex,and I am waiting for answer. The basis of the experimentation in itself is not complex. In a resonant cavity,hydrogen atom must be ionized also by an initial discharge and maintained as a cold plasma of protons and electrons. There are some problems to be fixed: 1- We have an average recombination time of the ionized hydrogen atom that is about 10^ -8 sec.Thus, an high frequency ionizing e. m. field is need in maintaining a cold plasma that is a considerable number of protons mixed and colloding with an equal number of free electrons. the high frequency should be about 10^ 10 sec^-1.Thus,a source of=20 microwave is required,entering the microwaves in the resonant cavity. The protons and the electrons,accelerated in opposite directions by the electric field of the microwave,showld allow the formation of the neutron as cold fusion.This is the scheme of the experiment:certainly,there remains the problem to identify the neutron with certainty,but also=20 here we may have different kind of solutions. Finally,there is the problem that in our theoretical basis we have= considered the proton at rest,and the electron having almost 800kev. 2-Starting the important results obtained by kamada,there is ,in addition, another version of the experiment,and this may be also simpler of the previuos one.An electron beam of 800 kev must incide on a metal saturated by hydrogen,I think to the Al or also to the Beriliumm that leaves the=20 protons at rest. These are two experimental arrangements that I think we could perform! Let us try? There will be important different results of experimentation added to that one in course in my laboratory.Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 22:27:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA23799 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA23779 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA29727; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:12:47 -0500 Date: 27 Jan 96 00:11:16 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte Message-ID: <960127051116_100433.1541_BHG49-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To:Vortex In a way, I can see Martin Sevior's point. It would be nice to be able to drive a CETI cell differently. But, equally, it would be nice to prove that a radiant bar electric fire works by letting it warm the bath water. (Don't try that at home. Please.) What I think is CETI's real contribution to the phenomenology of Ni/H "CF" (which I reckon is a pretty different kind of horse to Pd/D "CF", by the way) is that they've discovered that a perfectly conventional Ni/H device works many, many times better if the electrolyte is forced to flow. The faster the better, by the way - I assumed everybody had noticed that? In fact, I reckon (in a crude, intuitive sort of way) that this tells us more about the mechanism than anything much else - because nothing much else is happening in there!). I can't think of any clear analogues in catalytic chemistry off-hand, but I seem to recall that some industrial chemical processes need high flow over catalysts. And the gas-phase Ni/H necessarily gives a high flow rate, given the mobility of gaseous H2 and the convection from the heat. Not much contamination there, either. That's another point which I had assumed everybody had noticed, the apparent immunity of the CETI cell to organic contaminants. Usually, the slightest trace of any plasticiser or oil stops them in their tracks. But the CETI device must be running in what amounts to primordial soup. Pumps, plastic tubing - a real mess. Diner: "Waiter, what is the 'soup of the day'?" Waiter: "Primordial, sir." I'll speculate that any Ni/H cell will burst into song if you start pumping its electrolyte through it - that the beads is just plumb irrelevant. Ah reckons that the flow dislodges them pesky organics from the reaction sites, allowing the highly mobile H to get in there and do whatever it does. Martin, while I sympathise with your discomfort I must say that if you have no mechanism for fooling flow calorimetry, and if (as appears perfectly clear) this phenomenon has shown itself very dramatically in different implementations, then I would suggest that high flow is a requirement of the system rather than a reason to doubt elementary thermodynamics. And Robert Eachus' remarks on the Wrights are by no means off-topic. He points out that intuition is a poor guide until you have great familiarity with a new phenomenon. Yes, I have done that a bit myself in this posting; but at least I'm basing my comments on a comparison between CETI and previous Ni/H devices. I also much enjoyed his story about his grandfather! Tremendous tale! Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 22:29:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA24551 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA24536 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 21:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-47.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-47.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.47]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA07332 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:16:04 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601270516.QAA07332@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:18:28 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: More o-u motors Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 26 Jan 96 at 4:44, Chris Tinsley wrote: [snip] > Chris also sends me a report on 'black LEDs' - shades of the Hitchhikers Guide > To The Galaxy. Defence Research Agency at Malvern have made a lamp which > shines black, using GaAs technology. Much talk of making cloaking devices! It > 'defies Kirchoff's Law' by absorbing IR without emitting it. That's from one > magazine, there is more in Electronic Times, 25 January. [snip] Times were, this sort of thing used to be published in the April 1 edition of magazines. :-(At then you knew not to take it seriously) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 06:14:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA15163 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 06:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA15158 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 06:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-112.austin.eden.com (net-1-112.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.112]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA26706 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:04:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:04:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601271404.IAA26706@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said: >I'll speculate that any Ni/H cell will burst into song if you start pumping its >electrolyte through it - that the beads is just plumb irrelevant. So far my flowing-electrolyte attempt with pure Ni balls has not "burst into song". I ran it for about 2 weeks solid without even a little nibble of excess heat. Of course, I don't yet have the sensitivity to detect real low levels of heat (precision is presently +/- 1 watt). When the new calorimeter is operational, I'll probably have +/- 0.05 watt precision...maybe then I'll see something. BTW, several days after I discontinued operation of the cell (about a week after I had replaced the cracked cell body that was discussed here on Vortex) a single crack appeared in the new cell body. I'm beginning to conclude that Li2SO4 and Lexan (polycarbonate) don't get along all that well together. - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:06:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01900 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01891 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA25517; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:56:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:56:03 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte In-Reply-To: <960127051116_100433.1541_BHG49-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Jan 1996, Chris Tinsley wrote: > I'll speculate that any Ni/H cell will burst into song if you start pumping its > electrolyte through it - that the beads is just plumb irrelevant. Ah reckons > that the flow dislodges them pesky organics from the reaction sites, allowing > the highly mobile H to get in there and do whatever it does. VERY interesting Chris. However, I think that only the surface of the beads knows about the flow, so mechanisms akin to "wind chill factor" will be important. For example, if fluid moves non-turbulently across a polished surface, the fluid in the Boundary Layer in contact with the surface is essentially stagnant. I'd think that, for the same flow velocity, a bead bed should have a much smaller stagnant layer than, say, a stack of plates. Bead roughness might have an effect. Another thought: turbulence messes up the boundary layer, so raising the flow velocity might give unexpected dramatic increases in the actual flow "felt" by the bead surfaces when laminar/turbulent transition occurs. Also, vibration or acoustic waves might help trigger turbulence and expose the bead surfaces to new electrolyte more efficiently than just a high flow rate. This could be ultrasound, but a mechanical vibrator might work too. Suppose the effect depends on the electrical environment in the surface layer and not just upon current or H+. The flowing electrolyte might be disrupting the polarized water layers and altering the e-fields in the surface layer, no? Has anyone heard if detergents have any good effect? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:25:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA04625 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA04614 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA24334; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:14:51 -0500 Date: 27 Jan 96 12:13:38 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte Message-ID: <960127171338_100433.1541_BHG84-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex I said: "I'll speculate that any Ni/H cell will burst into song if you start pumping its electrolyte through it - that the beads is just plumb irrelevant." And Scott, quite reasonably, responds: "So far my flowing-electrolyte attempt with pure Ni balls has not "burst into song". I ran it for about 2 weeks solid without even a little nibble of excess heat. Of course, I don't yet have the sensitivity to detect real low levels of heat (precision is presently +/- 1 watt)." What I should have said was "any Ni/H which was working at all". Regrettably, while much easier than Pd/D, even Ni/H cells aren't trivial to get working. I seem to recall that the easiest ones are supposed to use those very fine-strand Ni wire mats? Anybody know? Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:28:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA05136 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA05127 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA27293; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:19:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:19:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Conte's Theory suggests Super-Hot Fusion? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED ___ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:11:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Conte's Theory suggests Super-Hot Fusion? I wrote: Experimental and practical application of the theory, though, to me, seems difficult. The proposed 800 KeV electrons represent a temperature of (800,000 deg.K)(11,600 eV/deg. K) = 9.3 trillion deg. K, which is considerably hotter ^^^^^^^^ than a normal hot fusion environment. Sorry, that should have read billion, i.e. 9.3 x 10^9 deg. K. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:33:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA05033 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA05024 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA27266; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:18:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:18:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Conte's Theory suggests Super-Hot Fusion? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:07:02 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Conte's Theory suggests Super-Hot Fusion? Prof Elio Conte wrote: >I am very intersted to your suggestion on Eistein-Bose >atoms.Please,could you explain me the experimental >basis and your linked ideas with more details.I think >that it is very important.Thanking in advance,I remain. >yours sincerely.Elio Conte First, let me apoligize for using incorrect terminology. What I referred to as "Einstein-Bose atoms" is really a "Bose-Einstein condensate", commonly referred to as a "Bose condensate". Satyenda Nath Bose provided the quantum theory that allowed Einstein to predict this state of matter in which atoms spread out to such an extent that their wave functions completely overlap and fall into lockstep. This year Carl Weiman and Eric Cornell created such a megaparticle consisting of about 3000 Rubidiuim atoms. The condensate was formed at 20 Nanokelvins and had a diameter of 2 thousandths of an inch. It could hold together for 15 seconds or more in a trap consisting of magnetic fields which rotated at 8000 revolutions per second, and which was built for less than $50,000. The condensate was viewed with a laser. I mentioned this experiment in regards to and in support of Prof Conte's theory in that his theory relies on and applies to the overlapping wave nature of spacially extended and overlapping particles, which the existance of a Bose condensate confirms as realistic. Experimental and practical application of the theory, though, to me, seems difficult. The proposed 800 KeV electrons represent a temperature of (800,000 deg.K)(11,600 eV/deg. K) = 9.3 trillion deg. K, which is considerably hotter than a normal hot fusion environment. You get the same old leaky bucket problem with the beam approach as well, only more so. Since velocity is relative, I would think an 800 KeV proton beam would be far more productive than an electron beam, because the proton would encounter electrons at the surface, whereas an electron beam would be forced to penetrate a conduction band and outer shell bands as well. The bucket would not be quite so leaky with a proton beam, but still too leaky to be practical as an energy source. There must be numerous published experiments where various targets were bombarded with proton beams in the near 800 KeV range. It is possible that data already exists which could provide at least some indication of the validity of the theory. The first experiment that leaps to mind is the Kasagi experiment, which created anomalous neutrons. The main difficulty there is that the beam was less than 800 KeV by an order of magnitude. The Kasagi experiment involved the bombardment of a deuterium loaded titanium rod target with deuterium ions at up to 150 KeV. It would be interresting to extend the analaysis to deuterium. It is interresting that the original Pons and Fleischmann experiments tended to produce neutrons in pairs. If a cosmic ray or otherwise stimulated electron could be absorbed to create an unstable n2, this could provide an explanation of the observed phenomenon. It seems like predictions of electron interactions with much heavier nuclei would be of great value because energies much closer to 800 KeV level can be obtained by electron descent into a heavy nucleus coulomb well. In addtion, wavform overlap is more complex and may lead to unexpected circumstances. Prof Conte's theory might go far in explaining the many recent elemental transmutation experiments. It does seem likely, though, that neutrons created in sufficient quantities to provide the observed watt level power ouput of standard CF cells would be readily detectible. Therefore it seems unlikely that Prof Conte's theory, so far, accounts for or is applicable to the primary source of the observed CF energy outputs, using the more common definition of "CF", if such a definition exists. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:49:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA07937 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07925 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA28552; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:39:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:39:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Conte's Theory suggests Super-Hot Fusion? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:47:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Conte's Theory suggests Super-Hot Fusion? I wrote: There must be numerous published experiments where various targets were bombarded with proton beams in the near 800 KeV range. It is possible that data already exists which could provide at least some indication of the validity of the theory. The first experiment that leaps to mind is the Kasagi experiment, which created anomalous neutrons. The main difficulty there is that the beam ^^^^^^^^^ was less than 800 KeV by an order of magnitude. The Kasagi experiment involved the bombardment of a deuterium loaded titanium rod target with deuterium ions at up to 150 KeV. It would be interresting to extend the analaysis to deuterium. It is interresting that the original Pons and Fleischmann experiments tended to produce neutrons in pairs. If a cosmic ray or otherwise stimulated electron could be absorbed to create an unstable n2, this could provide an explanation of the observed phenomenon. The above "neutrons" should say "protons with energies of up to 17 MeV". One possible explanation for the above was that somehow the incident deuteron frequently, for unexplained reasons, would interact with two target deuterons: D + D + D -> p + n + alpha + 21.62 MEV One possible explanation for such a phenomenon is that in the lattice deuterons tend to form Bose condensates which, when struck by a deuteron, tend to react as a single entity. Lattices tend to have hot and cold nodes due to accoustic interference. Perhaps such condensates form at the cold nodes. It would be very interresting to bombard a Bose condensate with electrons and look for transmutations. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:01:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17027 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17003 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from iota.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA04040; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:44:23 +0100 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:44:23 +0100 Message-Id: <9601271844.AA04040@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to dr.Horace Heffner X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr Heffner,your relation is used in particle physics to express the temperature in unities of energy,but it is not used in our experiment. Consider that the electron at rest has 511 kev where each kev is equal to 1.16..... . 10^ 7 K .Do you intendend me ?! K.Kamada used electrons of about 125 kev for his experiments on cold fusion where he observed the well hnown anomalous effects! 1 bequerel of 90Sr + 90 Y gives you electrons with mean energy of 200 kev and 930 kev if you need! Do you intend me?.There existes also the definition of electronvolt.1ev is the energy of the electron of a beam when you apply a d.d.p. of 1 Volt between filament and anode. note that 1 ev =3D 1.60210 + - ..... .10 ^ -19 joule.In our experiment=20 a minimum d.d.p. of about 800 volts between anode and cathode should secure the required conditions of experimentation. Obviuosly,the=20 experiment requires also to be maken deeper before assume drastic resolutions,just as I wrote you some days ago.Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:09:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA19151 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA19119 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-007.austin.eden.com (net-3-007.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.7]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA07617 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:59:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:59:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601271859.MAA07617@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said: >What I should have said was "any Ni/H which was working at all". Regrettably, >while much easier than Pd/D, even Ni/H cells aren't trivial to get working. I >seem to recall that the easiest ones are supposed to use those very fine-strand >Ni wire mats? Anybody know? I've seen this Ni wire mat. It's called Ni Fibrex, I think. Dennis Letts (a local CF enthusiast) has worked with it a lot and reports successes in the past...however, he has yet to demonstrate such performance to me. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:58:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA25546 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA25514 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cappa.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA01294; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:47:10 +0100 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:47:10 +0100 Message-Id: <9601271947.AA01294@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: reply to dr Horace Hoffner X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr Hoffner,I have answered to your message constituted of few lines and that,improperly,spoke of hot fusion for the experiments that I proposed and also regarding my theory:After some hours,they have arrived two other your messages more articulated and surpassing (I retain!) the improprities of your first message.I think that it occurred an unforeseen event. Regarding your discussion: No!!! the proton must be at rest!! It is easy to obtain electrons with 800 kev of energy.This is the threshold energy= required for the electron to enter into the new space -time represented from the hyperdens medium of the proton.There are several forms to produce a beam of electrons with these energetic conditions,and in my previous message I indicated also specific solutions.In fact ,the problem is to= maintain the COLD plasma.Again,I repeat:no neutrinio is required,it is emitted during the formation of the neutron.Microwaves ass ure colliding (directly!) free= =20 protons and electrons.=20 You have explained now the Bose- Einstein .........,see you,but I do not see the problem in detail and so I have difficulties in the comments. Finally,it appears to me that it is of great importance also your= considerations on so called "untipical transformations".If we confirm our possibility of=20 producing the synthesis of the proton and the electron to form a neutron,we confirm also that we have produced an unstable hadron.From this,new technological applications of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics should follow since the= inverse procedure could be also obtained that is to induce the stimulated decay.In= other terms,we should have the possibility of stimulating the decay of the= individual neutrons in a nuclear srtucture and so inducing new nuclear transmutations. This is a very important fact from a theoretical ,experimental and= technological viewpoint.As example,I have seen that you do not dislike experiments of=20 bombardment:are you thinking to make the experiment inverse of mine,in other terms ,to study the reaction gamma + n ----> p + e + antineutrino. If my theory is true,what do you expect analyzing the cross section of this reaction at different gammas?If Conte's theory is correct,and only in this case,you must have a peack;please calculate the energy. Finally,may you explain in more detail the reactions that you indicated in one of your previous messages?. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 13:41:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA10092 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA10075 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA26632; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:26:48 -0500 Date: 27 Jan 96 16:25:12 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte Message-ID: <960127212512_100060.173_JHB73-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley said: >> the flow dislodges them pesky organics from the reaction sites, allowing the highly mobile H to get in there and do whatever it does. << Yes, and the flow will also help clear the electrodes of the larger insulating bubbles. If the self-cleaning action is a necessary requirement for XS heat should some form of vibration of the whole cell increase the effect? The ultrasound based cells would have this in spades. Norman - still keeping an eye open! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 09:57:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA26453 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root@sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA26429 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pppnode7.bahnhof.se (pppnode7 [193.44.91.107]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA02761 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:44:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:44:12 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199601281744.SAA02761@sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo@sunny.bahnhof.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: grappo@bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: Reed Huish´s converter Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To mr Reed Huish Upon the mail from Reed Huish vtxannou Hal Puthoff wrote "Reed, A question. When you say 300%o/u do you mean output/input ratio is three to one.If so, and the device outputs 1 kw, this would mean that it needs a driving power of 333 watts. Can you take the 333 watts from the output and have a stand alone, selfpowered-device of 667 watts, and has this been done? If not, why not? Thanks, Hal Puthoff puthoff@aol.com" Robin van Spaandonk wrote on a similar note: /snap "If the device is 300% O-U and produces AC Power, then it should be self sustaining. In which case it is infinitely O-U, not 300%. Please explain." /snap Mr Reed Huish, I monitor this network very closely, but I have not noticed your answer to this very basic and pertinent question. If I have missed your answer would you please reiterate and enlighten me. Thanks Gudmund Rapp e-mail grappo@bahnhof.se From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 10:09:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA28548 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA28507 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 17:08:32 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <15514@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI and flowing electrolyte X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 6 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The fine Nickel mat is available in various forms from EMC specialists. I have seen some in a catalogue at work that is in the form of a woven gasket, about 10mm in diameter. It seems to be woven from very fine nickel wire. -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 10:16:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA29685 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root@sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA29655 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pppnode18.bahnhof.se (pppnode18 [193.44.91.118]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA03662 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:06:45 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:06:45 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199601281806.TAA03662@sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo@sunny.bahnhof.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: grappo@bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: Takahashi Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Chris Tinsley, In your reports about your trials with T=B4s scooter you mentioned at least twice that the motor was running cool or cold. Having studied Victor Schauberger=B4s essays, letters and other documents at some length, which is very difficult because he invented words never used before, sometimes my mind wakes me up and says, of course, a non-linear, o-u motor must run cold. That is exactly what Schauberger said in so many other words, I think!=20 Do you have any more news about Takahashi. I think his motor is really worth a closer study.=20 Best regards Gudmund Rapp=20 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 13:00:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA24978 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA24966 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaana08948; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26125; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:44:45 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 832043120096028FEPRI; 28 Jan 1996 12:43:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 28 Jan 1996 12:43:12 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Hi Gang! Going to be with Chris in England soon. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 01/28/96 12:43:20 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Hi Gang! Going to be with Chris in England soon. - Hi Gang! From the 29th of Jan to the 8th of Feb. I am going to be at - Poynders Guest House 20 Poynders Road Clapham London, England SW4 8NZ - I'll be at Phone 44-181-673-2043, fax 44-181-675-9928 - May not have Email while there, except for Chris' - Hope to bring that thermal radiation emmission testing device Chris, you want it? How about the Modem you had sent to you Peter Gluck, did it arrive? - Got to make some beads, by now!!! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 23:23:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA22074 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA22066 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA22475; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 02:07:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 02:07:43 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Hope In-Reply-To: <199601241718.MAA28431@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Bill Page wrote: > > Most complex scientific documents (such those that you can > download from LANL etc.) these days seem to be distributed > as postscript files (or sometimes the "son-of-postscript" Acrobat > PDF format). The both Ghostview (for reading postscript files) and > Acrobat are available free of charge. So I would propose that > in the future, if we would like to distribute this type of document > again, we should use one of these formats. > > > Anyone else here on Vortex have any opinions about this? Yes. Postscript and PDF rule. I can convert files into either format quite easily. Does anyone want the Conte papers in .ps or .pdf formats? The two big formats I see for sci/tech papers are .ps and .tex. I have an uninstalled TeX reader but I don't think it converts files into TeX format. BTW, mail that gets sent directly to me gets read a little sooner than list mail, by necessity. > > Cheers, > Bill Page. > Charles From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 15:29:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA12469 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA12403 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:53:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601292253.OAA12403@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA223356257; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:57:37 -0700 From: Ron McFee Subject: vtx: WSJ's Jerry Bishop back to work! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 15:57:37 MST Cc: mcfee@lanl.gov, hdreicer@lanl.gov, joy@lanl.gov, pbradley@lanl.gov, ptissot@diana.tld.harc.edu, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I post the following earlier, but may have made some errors in addressing it. So am reposting. Jerry Bishop, the top science reporter for the Wall Street Journal is back at his old job of reporting on CF. The following was posted to s.p.f by Akira Kawasaki. I am not sure whether he is quoting the Eastern (US) or Asian edition. My Western (US) edition which comes out of Denver has the article on page A9B. >From: aki@ix.netcom.com(Akira Kawasaki ) >Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion >Subject: Wall Street Journal's Bishop reports on CF and CETI >Date: 29 Jan 1996 17:21:52 GMT >Organization: Netcom > > >On today's Wall Street Journal (Monday Jan 29, 1996), on page A9A, Mr. >Jerry E. Bishop reports on the CETI Patterson Cell. > >The column starts with the heading "A bottle rekindles scientific >debate about the possibility of cold fusion". Then he says its Deja Vu >all over again. > >He quotes Quinton Bowles of University of Missouri as admitting that >"It appears on the surface that it works, but no one knows why". Two >universities are studying the Cells. > >Ceti, according to CETI's James W. Reding, 26, is negotiating with two >unnamed utilities and Motorola. Motorola is not saying anything. > >To balance the reporting, Bishop quotes Dr. Birnbaum of University of >Illinois as still being highly sceptical of the cold fusion claims but >allows that the "Patterson-cell people" 'May have stumbled on something >else' and wishes them success of so. > >Patterson has turned over his cells to CETI run by Reding. Reding has >now dropped the cold fusion claim and "believe it is something entirely >different" --- no elaboration. The article mentions the three public demonstrations during the last nine months particularly the Anaheim meeting. A Motorola spokesperson is quoted about their involvement in license agreements, "We wouldn't confirm such a report even if it were true." One of the US Patents is mentioned but not by number. Now that Jerry Bishop is back on the job I hope that the rest of the world will begin to take notice. Maybe Gene and Jed can get him to do some work for "Infinite Energy?" Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 16:31:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA10426 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA10365 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-164.austin.eden.com (net-1-245.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.245]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA16518 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:47:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:47:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601292247.QAA16518@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: last call for beads X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If you didn't either talk to me on the phone today...or receive an email confirmation of your bead order AND you want to buy some of the ersatz beads I'm getting, please contact me immdiately. Repeating the specs: bare beads: 1 - 1.5 mm dia soda lime glass activation: monolayer of Sn/Pd electroless deposition layer 1: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni electroless deposition layer 2: 1 +/- .5 micron Pd electroless deposition layer 3: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni The price is $50 per cubic centimeter of beads. Delivery has been quoted at 4-6 weeks after receipt of order (which will be placed tomorrow or Wednesday). Mark Hugo: Look at it this way. I'm not varying the recipe...just the kind of pot used to cook it in. Which would you choose to cook your stew in, a plastic pot or a glass pot? Reading Patterson's patents from as far back as 1970 I see that he's been using the same plastic beads for everything he's done....plastic beads are a paradigm for him. Hopefully they're not necessary. Anybody else want to buy one or more cc's of these beads? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 20:04:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA24014 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA23799 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:32:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601300332.TAA23799@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by power.gpu.com id (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:32:17 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:32:17 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-0); Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:32:17 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: journal Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 22:10:39 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I looked in Monday Wall St. Journal and the only thing there was on page a-9 was an add for a Lexas. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:39:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA22981 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA22213 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06867 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:53:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199601291753.AA06867@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:53:52 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GEROGEHM@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: OverHead Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 12:53:05 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> GEROGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 A friend and mine and a retired manager at GPU (with vision) is going to help me out. Dr. Ron Madison, my early supporter, is disappointed by what has transpired. Ron was pushed out on an early retirement package. A shame! In February Dr. Madison is going on vacation with Jim Leva the president of GPU. Ron Toole the VP who shut me down is two levels of management below Leva. I may get in trouble for going over Toole's head but the seeds have already been planted. I hope we can join before the doors are closed to us. Frank Znidarsic A vision is needed. I have it. Dr. Madision has it and I'm told Jim Leva has it. The rest, well, use your own judgement. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:42:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA20083 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA19997 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-17.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-17.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.17]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA28873 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:11:31 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199601300611.RAA28873@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:14:17 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's papers - proper format - thanks to Charles Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 29 Jan 96 at 2:07, Charles Hope wrote: [snip] > Yes. Postscript and PDF rule. I can convert files into either format > quite easily. Does anyone want the Conte papers in .ps or .pdf formats? > Yes Please! (I've had absolutely no luck at all with any of the others on Bill's server - Wordview GPF's etc. etc.) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:42:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA14423 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA14206 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA14525; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:18:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:18:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: re: zpe-t Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:41:14 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: zpe-t Earlier I wrote: > >If a sealed container produced energy E via ZPE, it must increase the >negative gavitational potential of the universe by M, where E=MCC, so >M=CC/E. If we assume the potential is created within the sealed box, we >can assume then that the box must weigh more (not less, as with fusion or >fision). However, some of the energy, call it e will be radiated away in >photons which have a non zero rest mass, call the total m. Now, if we can >determine the total amount of energy created (E), and the amount of energy >radiated (e), we should be able to determine the weight change of the box >(w) and see if it matches: > >w = M - m = E/CC - e/CC. > >Assume the experiment weighs about 1E5 g. (100Kg), and that we can >accurately weigh a +1g change (+- 10 mg). That's quite a bit of energy, >especially if the experiment runs at 1KW net output. E = (.001 Kg)(3E8 >m/s)(3E8 m/s) = 9E13 J = 9E13 Ws = 2.5E7 KWh. Running 24 hrs/day that is a >mere 1,000,000 days! > >So, we need a factor of 1000 improvement to detect the effect within a 3 >year experimental period. So one question is it possible to increase >output to say 10KW in a 100Kg sealed device, and weigh that device >accuarately for a weight change change of +10 mg (+- .1 mg), and exclude, >eliminate or account for chemical and cosmic ray influences on the weight > > > Suppose such an experiment could be supported by a wire or fiber with a length of 100 m. We would then have a pendulum which could be used to accurately determine change of mass, provided the length change of the pendulum could be accurately determined. The other parameter, pendulum oscillation time, is clearly determinable to extreme accuracy. The limiting factor would be change in pendulum length. If this could be determined or controlled to 10^-6 meter, the weight change of the pendulum could be determined to one part in 10^8. It is clear that the presence of moving parts and thermal instability is a big drawback in such a measurement! The experiment would probably have to be shut down at weighing time. Continuing the thought anyway, this would permit detection of a 1 mg change in the 10^5 g experiment, which would permit the experiment to be run in less than 3 years at a 1KW production rate. The cool running o/u motor type devices should be very amenable to such an experiment. All that is needed is a motor generator pair, power control unit, and a set of coils for transferring excess power accross a short vacuum gap, and maybe the hard part, an adequate heat radiator to radiate away any excess heat, and a means of measuring the energy so transmitted. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:44:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA02355 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA02190 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA26029; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:29:19 -0500 Date: 29 Jan 96 21:18:21 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Ah, so ka! Flowing electrolyte. Message-ID: <960130021820_72240.1256_EHB128-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex The Japanese expresses the sense of it: Ah so! ("I get it.") I missed that comment some weeks ago about how the CETI cells only work in flow calorimeters, and before that I missed the whole story. I meant to ask Patterson why he circulates electrolyte, but I never got around to it. Now I am piecing together various puzzling comments he and Cravens have made, and I realize they do lend support to Chris's hypothesis. The circulation may well promote the reaction. A couple of points: As I mentioned before, when I first talked to Patterson, he was circulating electrolyte through pressurized and unpressurized cells at a slow flow rate, less than 1 ml per minute. He used a medical IV pump. We had a confusing, comical exchange lasting several minutes before I realized what he was doing. To boil it down to few sentences: I asked how can you do calorimetry with such a low flow rate? Dr. P. said nothing too it, just look at the thermometer. The thermometer? The outlet thermometer, you mean? What about the inlet? Dr. P. said there is only one and what does the inlet temperature have to do with it? After a few rounds I realized that he measured cell temperature only, treating it like a static calorimeter cell. He ignored the heat carried off by the flow. He calibrated with a joule heater, null electrolysis and electrolysis with the beads before the reaction turned on. Then when the heat turned on the cell temperature went 3 to 4 times higher than the calibration point for the same input power. In other words, the circulation had nothing to do with electrolysis. I just never thought to ask why he circulated, that being the case. Looking back, I recall comments about "reducing the dead spots in the cathode bead pack," and "making sure that all bead surfaces take part in the reaction." I expect that circulating the electrolyte through clears away bubbles and possibly debris. Electrochemists can probably tell us a great deal more. My understanding is that once those bubbles appear on the surface of the cathode, they might as well be swept away because that hydrogen will never enter the metal lattice. I conclude that it is probably a good idea to circulate the electrolyte, but that does not preclude the use of static calorimetry. You can even do both at the same time, and why not? I would also attach a thermocouple to the outer surface of the cell wall. I have seen good designs with multiple walls, with thermocouples sandwiched between them. I disagree with Chris on one point. I doubt that a rapid flow is necessary. Years ago, Patterson used a slow flow, but he was making great strides in spite of that, particularly with pressurized cells. I think the relatively rapid flow in recent experiments is simply to keep the temperature low. The experimental cells are not designed to withstand high temperatures. I have been out of touch, and I may not reconnect until later this week. I am having troubles with my main computer and with dental work. The tooth may have to come out, the computer should have come out a long time ago. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:48:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA12864 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA12428 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:34:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601292134.NAA12428@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA211501484; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:38:04 -0700 From: Ron McFee Subject: vtx: WSJ's Jerry Bishop back to work! To: hdreicer@lanl.gov, claytor@lanl.gov, mcfee@lanl.gov, joy@lanl.gov, pbradely@lanl.gov, kogan@lanl.gov, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 14:38:03 MST Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, ptissot@diana.tdl.harc.edu, aki@ix.netcom.com Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry Bishop, the top science reporter for the Wall Street Journal is back at his old job of reporting on CF. The following was posted to s.p.f by Akira Kawasaki. I am not sure whether he is quoting the Eastern (US) or Asian edition. My Western (US) edition which comes out of Denver has the article on page A9B. >From: aki@ix.netcom.com(Akira Kawasaki ) >Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion >Subject: Wall Street Journal's Bishop reports on CF and CETI >Date: 29 Jan 1996 17:21:52 GMT >Organization: Netcom > > >On today's Wall Streret Journal (Monday Jan 29, 1996), on page A9A, Mr. >Jerry E. Bishop reports on the CETI Patterson Cell. > >The column starts with the heading "A bottle rekindles scientific >debate about the possibility of cold fusion". Then he says its Deja Vu >all over again. > >He quotes Quinton Bowles of University of Missouri as admitting that >"It appears on the surface that it works, but no one knows why". Two >universities are studying the Cells. > >Ceti, according to CETI's James W. Reding, 26, is negotiating with two >unnamed utilities and Motorola. Motorola is not saying anything. > >To balance the reporting, Bishop quotes Dr. Birnbaum of University of >Illinois as still being highly sceptical of the cold fusion claims but >allows that the "Patterson-cell people" 'May have stumbled on something >else' and wishes them success of so. > >Patterson has turned over his cells to CETI run by Reding. Reding has >now dropped the cold fusion claim and "believe it is something entirely >different" --- no elaboration. The article mentions the three public demonstrations during the last nine months particularly the Anaheim meeting. A Motorola spokesperson is quoted about their involvement in license agreements, "We wouldn't confirm such a report even if it were true." One of the US Patents is mentioned but not by number. Now that Jerry Bishop is back on the job I hope that the rest of the world will begin to take notice. Maybe Gene and Jed can get him to do some work for "Infinite Energy?" Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:50:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA14409 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA13950 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA14393; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:18:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:17:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:28:08 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Reply to Prof Conte Dear Prof Conte, Below, I respond in more detail to your individual statementss, which are preceeded with the standard ">" symbol. > Dear dr Hoffner,I have answered to your message constituted >of few lines and that,improperly,spoke of hot fusion for the experiments >that I proposed and also regarding my theory:After some hours,they >have arrived two other your messages more articulated and surpassing >(I retain!) the improprities of your first message.I think that it occurred >an unforeseen event. Please, call me Horace. I am not a PhD, am I am affiliated with no organization. I am simply an amateur looking for, and hopefully contributing, to the search for practical solutions to what I and many others percieve as an environmental/energy crisis. My comments are offered simply as food for thought and to maintain the crical mass of experimental interest in the field of CF. >Regarding your discussion: No!!! the proton must be at rest!! It is easy to >obtain electrons with 800 kev of energy.This is the threshold energy required I have seen no statements or implications in your theory that motion is not relative. If there is such an implication in your theory, please explain, as this is truly revolutionary. >for the electron to enter into the new space -time represented from >the hyperdens medium of the proton.There are several forms to produce >a beam of electrons with these energetic conditions,and in my previous >message I indicated also specific solutions.In fact ,the problem is to maintain >the COLD plasma.Again,I repeat:no neutrinio is required,it is emitted during >the formation of the neutron.Microwaves ass ure colliding (directly!) free >protons >and electrons. I offer the suggestion of the proton beam because I believe many experiments have been done in the energy ranges you require. It seems like neutron peaks should be readily observed at the suggested energies. If sufficient neutrons are generated, you would also see proton peaks due to the spontaneous disintegration of the resultant neutrons. The suggestion is offered in the hope you might find confirmation for your theory by a trip to the library. Since the proton is 3 orders of magnitude more massive than the electron, it should maintain it's momentum through many p,e collisions, thus improving the likelyhood of a successful interaction. An electron beam interacting with conduction band and shell electrons would for the most part be reduced to thermal energies before a single p,e interaction. Of course, the energy cost of accelerating the proton to the velocity required to bring the electron relative kinetic energy to 800 KeV is much higher than 800 KeV, i.e. more like 1469 MeV. The main advantage is in the fact the experiment may have already been done. >You have explained now the Bose- Einstein .........,see you,but I do not >see the problem in detail and so I have difficulties in the comments. There is no problem. I offered the Bose condensate experimental results as being evidence in support of your theory, particularly in response some comments by Bill Page. I thought perhaps he and others were possibly not aware of the new results. >Finally,it appears to me that it is of great importance also your >considerations >on so called "untipical transformations".If we confirm our possibility of >producing >the synthesis of the proton and the electron to form a neutron,we confirm >also that we have produced an unstable hadron.From this,new technological >applications of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics should follow since the inverse >procedure could be also obtained that is to induce the stimulated decay.In >other >terms,we should have the possibility of stimulating the decay of the individual >neutrons in a nuclear srtucture and so inducing new nuclear transmutations. >This is a very important fact from a theoretical ,experimental and >technological >viewpoint.As example,I have seen that you do not dislike experiments of >bombardment:are you thinking to make the experiment inverse of mine,in >other terms ,to study the reaction gamma + n ----> p + e + antineutrino. >If my theory is true,what do you expect analyzing the cross section >of this reaction at different gammas?If Conte's theory is correct,and only >in this case,you must have a peack;please calculate the energy. Using your adjusted mass of the electron to be 1.306 MeV and mass of proton of 938,2723 MeV, I get 12.7 KeV for the gamma peak. >Finally,may you explain in more detail the reactions that you indicated >in one of your previous messages?. Yes. The reaction: D + D + D -> p + n + alpha + 21.62 MeV was proposed, somewhat in desperation, in the article "Energetic Protons and Alpha Particles Emitted in 150-keV Deuteron Bombardment on Deuterated Ti", by Jirohta Kasagi, Tsutomu Ohtsuki, Keizo Ishii, and Masayuki Hiraga, in the Journal of the Physical Society of Japan, Vol 64, No. 3, March 1995, pp 777-783, to explain anomalous 17 MeV protons and 6.5 MeV alphas generated by bombardment of deuterated titanium rods with a 150KeV deuteron beam. The protons were in a broad bump from 12.5 to 16.5 MeV, with a sharp peak at 14.1 MeV and a continuum up to 17 MeV. The sharp peak was interpreted as protons emitted in the 3He(d,p)He (Q=18.35 MeV) reaction, since the peak energy follows the kinematic prediction at detected angles of 90 deg., 110 deg., and 135 deg. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:50:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA00487 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00229 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from omicron.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA25695; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:20:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:20:50 +0100 Message-Id: <9601292220.AA25695@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Bill Page X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr. Bill Page,excuse me,this time I will not respond to your questions as soon as possible as it occurred in our previous cases.This is due to the fact that in this moment I am not in my place of work,I am in Rome for quastions regarding the arrangement of the experiment,and I have not with me the papers or the file or my other personal notes.Answering to your questions,I fear that I could be a little inaccurate respect to formal questions that instead=20 require to be answered with accuracy.The only thing that I may say in this moment is that all the questions you raised are due to a necessary explanation that always is due in addition to a paper or various papers published on the journals. They concern some thinnes that are always due respect to the formulation on a journal ,and particularly in the case of a new theory.However,we must secure,the theory has not=20 improprities.Cetainly,my last paper New Pauli Matrices is the definitive formulation of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics, and it should appear as soon as possible.There is also my book that should appear at few days(I am hoping also in an English version).In any case I will respond in detail soon after my=20 return to my country,so you will have all the detailed questions. In addition,if you have read my papers,I like that you have seen for the first time concrete cases of psi wave function reduction. Have you seen how this possibility reopens the question on the foundations of quantum mechanics,its logic and our logic in the course of the observation of the physical reality?I see it a question of great interest. However,returning to the more specific problem of the cold fusion:I should appreciate your contribution(your help!) to open a discussion on the experimentation.I suggested various kinds of experiments that could be attempted.I say this fact only for my experience:I know very well the importance of the preliminar scientific debate,also I appreciate in particular the theoretical debate (I am a theoretical physicist),however,I know also the importance that in all the scientific cases as mine has provided the experimental=20 verification,or falsification if you prefer.If our aim is to go to a= deepening of a new theory that appears of interest,in any case we will not escape from the necessity to perform various experimentations.For this I ask you to encourage it also by your criticism and interest at this level of discussion.Please,may you intend me that I cannot experiment the theory by meself?I need the collaboration of other groups to obtain reproducible results on a theory that shows itself so innovative. Finally,there is another question.If you see that the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics may endure,as all the new theories,problems for an immediate and accurate understanding,I should be also at disposal to organize(with=20 impropriety I will call it ...)a course,some "explaining lessons" hold by me by the techniques od the distance learning by computer.These lessons could be devoted to researchers or people devoted to the research.I address this idea to you and also to the moderator of vortex-l,since together we= cold find the best form to organize this course in the best form.For heaven's= sake, this my proposal does not intend to hit the secure competence of all the= people but we could investigate in detail all the questions:i.e.,in my previous=20 messages of the past days,I am sure that I have suggested some new ideas of= experimen- tation that appear to me of great importance and innovation,let us see for example the suggestion on the new transmutations or that one regarding the reaction gamma + n -----> p +e +..... to see if the cross section of the reaction has a peack at the energy of the electron as indicated by= Biqua- ternion Quantum Mechanics or not.I think that all thesse ideas should be treared in more detail(as in a course with "explaining lessons") to be=20 investigated. Actually,this just occurred also for the traditional cold fusion,the= experiments passed only after an adequate documentation and investigation. Moderator of vortex-l and dr. Bill Page,what do you think about this=20 proposal?.Please,again excuse me if I used terms as Course and Explaining lessons:I do not intend cause any blunder og regard. Yours Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 01:50:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA06613 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA05681 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p4.aa.net (s3c2p4.aa.net [204.157.220.152]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA30945 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:12:30 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199601300112.RAA30945@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:18:23 +0800 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Brown's Gas Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:09 AM 1/27/96 -0900, you wrote: >Hello! > >You wrote on Vortex: > >>Chris, have you ever seen a tape of a demo of a Brown's Gas Generator in >>action? Some of the effects seem quite the same. BG "burns" organge to >>blue, depending upon adjustment of rate and water content, and "vaporizes" >>tungsten like an old fashioned Fourth of July sparkler (fireworks). It also >>makes short work of all of the silicates, and can create showers of effects >>with various stuff. BG process can run on only a few hundred watts. >>____________________________________ >>MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >>Michael Mandeville, publisher >>mwm@aa.net >>http://www.aa.net/~mwm > > >Could you suggest a good source of info on Brown's Gas? What is it, >something invented to aid welding? Thanks for any help. > > >Regards, > PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 >Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 > > > Why surely I can. Will send word doc files which summarize brown's work shortly. (as soon as I have time to find them in my floppy library) I summarized all of his claims and his gear in the docs. Please note when you get them that the docs summarize Brown's claims. I do not subscribe to his exact physics description of why his gas works - he believes that he is combusting monoatomic oxy and hy straight off of a simple electrolysis unit and he has even patented (or attempted to do so) the idea of combusting monoatomic oxy and hy but absolutely no one is willing to believe that the oxy and hy are mono-atomic for more than a nanosecond or so after being torn out of H2O. The essense of the idea is that by combusting nascent oxy hy in its exact stociometric combustion ratio, the energetics and properties are dramatically different than using bottled gases. I experimented with his setups and found that indeed he is correct about the "implosion" of stociometric oxy hy. When it is ignited in say a plastic or thin shelled metal can or bottle, the bottle does not explode, it is immediately crushed because the volume difference of water to the gas phase of oxy and hy is 1800 to 1. This is a very intriguing effect, and can be harnessed to get a lot of power out of an engine, a lot more than the simple chemical/heat energy equations would suggest, because you can take advantage of the pressure of the atmosphere and use it to deliver power. (Is this a possible form of gravity propulsion???? :>>) Also Brown claims that the implosion flux which occurs preciesly at combution creates unexpected welding effects which cannot be obtained any other way. Tungsten, for instance, which is about as difficult to melt as any substance, can be easily delt with and welded to a dissimlar metal. Glass and metal are easily fused, but how usefully is an open question. He also claimed you wouldn't have hydrogenation problems in metal but we found that IT DEFINITELY IS A PROBLEM, which is why we gave up on it. I think the effect could be useful with extremely precise control of the "flame or plasma" tip, to avoid driving the hydrogen into the metal. One great advantage of the reaction is that it can be done in a vacuum and under water. I would definitely explore the effect for two applications: spectral analysis of a material - it should yield a very clean reaction; and also as a gun for creating metallic vapors for deposition. But in these two realms you need a pretty advanced industrial lab to successfull engineer a decent product. Thus, I am no longer involved in experimenting with it. We do have, however, a BG generator which currently is not being used by anyone. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 08:53:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12310 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.net (ddi.digital.net [198.69.104.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA12184 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.69.104.84] (pm7_16.digital.net [198.69.104.84]) by digital.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20596 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:24:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:20:03 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: tilleyrw@digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: Re: vtx: Bedini Clarifier Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've built the magnet/coil assembly as per the instructions on Bill's WWW page and now have a question. The motor is in the circuit to delivery pulses of current to the magnet/coil, if I am reading the instructions correctly. Could the motor not be replaced with a high speed oscillator? I don't know what the frequency would be, but I bet it would be very fast. Also, can anyone say if the N-N poles of the magnets need to be on the inside or just equal sides? I don't have my Magnetic Pole Differientiater (also on Bill's page) built as of yet, so I just have the magnets in an orientation where they repel each other. Could be N-N or S-S. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, | | and why. Then do it." -- Lazarus Long | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Robert Tilley * tilleyrw@digital.net * "Once upon a time..." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | *** --- *** --| http://ddi.digital.net/~tilleyrw |-- *** --- *** | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 15:09:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA04111 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 14:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA03904 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 14:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mu.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA19702; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:41:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:41:50 +0100 Message-Id: <9601302241.AA19702@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: re to Horace Heffner X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: dear Horace,thank you again for your interest. 1- No.The electron to enter in the hyperdensum medium of the proton must enter in the space-time of this particle.In this medium the electron is not 0.511 mev as in the usual space time that concerns the vacuum,but it is about 1.3 Mev:thus the electron and only the electron must have about 0.800 mev in order to penetrate inside the proton.On the other hand,no=20 balancing energies are required for the proton that thus may be at rest,as we formulated in our CGSE. 2- I do not see your problems in the experimental arrangements that I suggested:in the case of the resonant cavity with linked the source of=20 microwaves,you have free protons and free electrons obtained from the hydrogen atom,the field of the microwaves forces at frequencies about 10 ^9 or 10 ^ 10 sec-1 the protons and the elecrons to continously invert their motion and to collide directly.The problems that you see at this stage of the experimentation should not incide in a determinant way. The other experiment is also simpler,select a radionuclide emitting=20 electrons with mean energy about 800 kev and incide the electrons=20 on Al or Berillium saturated with hydrogen and thus having the protons at rest.The neutron should be formed. 3- the reaction gamma +n -----> p +e + ... No,If the neutron is= constituted by a proton and an electron the reaction should peack at the energy of the electron (that is to say a resonance at the frequency of the electron in the neutron):thus it should be about 800 kev. 4-Please,in your investigations consider also the case to study= experimentally the unusual transmutations as I suggested in my previous message. 5- The problem of the anomalous effects that were observed in previous studies on CF.I am very interested to the working group that you have=20 signed for me,I should appreciate in receiving the paper,could you send it= =20 me also by fax?or in any other form according to your convenience? I think that in these experiments of saturation we must consider the reaction d+e ---> 2n as first suggested dr.Bill Page.In particular,I think= that stable n in d is at 1fm from the proton.As result of the nuclear= interactions, in conditions far from equilibrium,as in metals neutrons reach the=20 possibility to decay.In this case,the formation of neutron as prediced by=20 Biquaternion=20 Quantum Mechanics,should occur.I think that this was also the case of the results concerning Kamada. sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 18:03:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA07929 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA07666 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA10215; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:38:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:38:26 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Brown's Gas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:08:50 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Brown's Gas Michael Mandeville said: > The essense of the idea is that by combusting nascent oxy hy in its exact > stociometric combustion ratio, the energetics and properties are > dramatically different than using bottled gases. I experimented with his > setups and found that indeed he is correct about the "implosion" of > stociometric oxy hy. When it is ignited in say a plastic or thin shelled > metal can or bottle, the bottle does not explode, it is immediately crushed > because the volume difference of water to the gas phase of oxy and hy is > 1800 to 1. 2 H2 + O2 --> 2 H2O, so the volume of the gas shrinks, assuming constant temperature. Of course, the temperature is decidedly NOT constant, but if the thermal mass of the container is large compared to the mass of the contents, you will not get a significant overpressure, if any. As soon as the burning finishes, of course, the water vapor cools further and the container starts to crumple. You then get a weird seeming effect where the pressure in the container stays constant as the volume decreases and the water vapor condenses out. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 31 22:49:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA04871 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA04832 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c0p5.aa.net (s1c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.169]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18290; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:28:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199602010628.WAA18290@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 22:38:06 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, wchipman@axionet.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Beads are ordered! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:27 PM 1/31/96 -0600, you wrote: >The bead order has been placed! > >Delivery is now expected at the end of Feb...i.e. 4 weeks from now. Get >your test cells ready! > >Thanks to a suggestion from Martin Sevior, we will be supplying a matching >quantity of uncoated beads along with the coated beads. These uncoated >beads can be used as a separator between the bed of coated beads and the anode. > >So far, we have received 6 orders for a total of 38 cc of beads. We will >continue to accept orders for beads until our surplus (about 20cc) is exhausted. > >Repeating the specs for those of you who missed them: > >bare beads: 1 - 1.5 mm dia soda lime glass >activation: monolayer of Sn/Pd >electroless deposition layer 1: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni >electroless deposition layer 2: 1 +/- .5 micron Pd >electroless deposition layer 3: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni > >Price: $50/cc (1cc is 500-600 beads) > >As soon as the beads are received here, we will send them out via suitable >express shipping method (prepaid) to each participant. Then we will start >assembling our own test cell. That way we'll all get started testing about >the same time and it'll be a race to see who gets the first robust excess >heat results....:-) > >Stay tuned to Votex-L for periodic updates as the beads are fabricated. > > >Scott Little >EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA >512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) > > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Jan 31 23:28:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA14332 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA14296 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id XAA13743; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: two papers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:01:56 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: two papers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Vortexmen, I have seen in Current Contents no 5/1996 that two interesting papers have been published in FUSION TECHNOLOGY 29:1 Jan 1996: pp 83-90 - J. Jorne "Ultrasonic irradiation of deuterium-loaded palladium particles suspended in heavy water" pp 178-187- C. H. Ellison, J. A. Mahaffey "An investigation of reports of fusion reactions occuring at the cathode in glow discharges" Are they relevant? Thank you for any information! Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 00:02:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA24927 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA24903 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA16033; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:50:19 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:50:18 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: two papers In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, William Beaty wrote: > --- FORWARDED --- > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:01:56 +0200 (GMT+0200) > From: Mihai JALOBEANU [...] > Dear Vortexmen, > > I have seen in Current Contents no 5/1996 that two interesting > papers have been published in FUSION TECHNOLOGY 29:1 Jan 1996: > > pp 83-90 - J. Jorne > "Ultrasonic irradiation of deuterium-loaded palladium particles > suspended in heavy water" > > pp 178-187- C. H. Ellison, J. A. Mahaffey > "An investigation of reports of fusion reactions occuring at the > cathode in glow discharges" > > Are they relevant? Yes, as far as I am concerned. Thanks, Peter. I just looked through a great heap of CC but couldn't find one with FT in it, I must go and check again. I never could find the entry for that Nov-95 issue and was lucky to get a tip-off for it. Does anyone in this list remember the email address of George Miley, FT's Editor? I want to ask him about CNF content in FT, being afraid I've been missing some. I eventually catch up when the stuff appears in Chem. Abstr. and Phys. Abstr, but that takes a while. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 05:28:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA00964 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA07743 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 03:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cappa.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA26769; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:47:16 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:47:16 +0100 Message-Id: <9602011147.AA26769@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Please,may some component of vortex-l explain to me in detail how is obtained technically loading surface of hydrogen in Aluminium? Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 05:57:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA09029 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA09008 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA23600; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:39:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:39:56 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9602011147.AA26769@giasone.teseo.it> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Elio Conte wrote: > Please,may some component of vortex-l explain to me in detail > how is obtained technically loading surface of hydrogen in Aluminium? > Sincerely.Elio Conte The easiest and cheapest way would be by electrolysis; make the Al piece the cathode in an electrolyte of, say, Li2SO4, use Pt as anode, and apply a constant current at, say, 1A/cm^2. I don't know how deep the hydrogen will go within a reasonable time, but you can no doubt find this out by looking up the diffusion coefficient of hydrogen in Al and simply using the Nernst diffusion length, SQRT(pi*D*t). More complicated ways would be to apply pressurised H2 gas to a very very clean Al sample, or to fire a beam of protons at such a sample. That's how Kamada did it (Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. 31 (1992) L1287), and he got down to about 50 nm and a quite high density of hydrogen, 6*10^22 "molecules"/cm^3 or a molar hydrogen volume of about 10 cm^3, i.e. a loading H/Al of about 1. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 06:47:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA02498 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA02485 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04489 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:13:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602011413.JAA04489@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 09:27:43 -0500 To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: CETI cell anode construction Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott (and others), We have heard a lot here about the cathode construction of the Patterson Power Cell, but I recall from the demo and discussion at ICCF5 that this cell also uses a novel type of anode. Like the cathode, the anode also consists of a packed bed beads but rather of some special (at the time undisclosed) type of resin beads in addition to the platinum wire mesh. The purpose of the resin beads, as I understood at the time, was to greatly improve (decrease?) the electrical overpotential at the anode where oxygen is liberated through some kind of ion exchange process. Can anyone (Jed?) confirm that CETI still uses this special type of anode? Scott, does your test cell use a special type of anode of this sort? Does it matter? BTW, I would guess that the use of this special anode may be part of the reason that reversal of polarity has a disasterous effect on the CETI cell. What do you think? I'm looking forward to the upcoming attempts at replication. Good work, Scott, in making the materials available to everyone. I'm still trying to decide whether I want to put on my experimenter's gloves again... we'll see. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 07:38:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA16117 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:05:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA16105 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA08715 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:05:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199602011505.AA08715@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:05:07 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: address Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 10:04:07 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Per your request the address and phone # is. George Miley Fusion Studies Lab 100 NEL South Goodwin Urbana Ill 61801-2984 217-333-3772 ....................................... Chuck Ross Kansas City Power and Light PO Box 418679 Kansas City Mo 64141-9679 816-556-2004 ........................................... Quinton Bowles 5605 Troost Kansas City Mo 64110 816-235-1280 ......................................... I'm doing another talk today at the University of Pitt on ZPE and CF. I have invited: Representatives from Concurrent Technologies Co. The President of Apparatus Eng Co. Ray Frank H.F. Lentz Co. Ron Madison who happens to be going on vacation with Jim Leva the president of GPU at the end of the month. Facality members & students A rep from congressman's Jack Murthia's office ............................................................... I really went out of my 9 dots. I am supposed (as far as anyone here knows) to be talking about engineering opportunities to the students only. I'm going to do a bang up job. I'm really pushing to get something started. This could get me into big trouble. ...................................................................... I would like to get a copy of the original Wall St. Journal Article. Could someone fax it to me at 412-235-4511 Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 07:46:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA20590 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA20561 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA05235 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:11:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602011511.KAA05235@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 10:25:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Re: your mail Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter Britz wrote: >On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Elio Conte wrote: > >> Please,may some component of vortex-l explain to me in detail >> how is obtained technically loading surface of hydrogen in Aluminium? >> Sincerely.Elio Conte > >The easiest and cheapest way would be by electrolysis; make the Al piece the >cathode in an electrolyte of, say, Li2SO4, use Pt as anode, and apply a >constant current at, say, 1A/cm^2. Dieter, With your background in electrochemistry, would you consider Li2SO4 to be a "safe" electrolyte for Aluminum at a cathodic potential in a electrolysis cell? Specifically, are there likely to be any undesirable chemical reactions? How will the oxide layer on the cathode be affected by the electrolyte? Would Al desolve into the solution? Although I searched, I did not find any information in the electrochemistry literature about the behaviour of Al under these conditions. Do you have any suggestions as to where I might look? Almost everything I found concerned how to keep hydrogen out of the Al (to prevent mechanical failure, corrosive effects, etc.) not how to get it into the metal. The experiments I did a few years ago to attempt to replicate the claims of Arthur Wasserman in FT (Vol. 21, pp.168, Mar. 1992) involved saline (NaCl) and hydrochloric acid (HCl) electrolytes. With NaCl after some hours of operation with Chlorine and Oxygen liberated at the anode, the electrolyte becomes strongly alkaline and corrosion of the cathode begins. Due to Chlorine evolution, one needs to be careful about the choice of anode and in open cells, obviously proper ventilation must be provided. As is well known in industrial electrochemistry there are temperature dependent effects on what actually happens in a saline cell and different (industrially important) Chlorine compounds can be formed. Wasserman avoids this by using a non-return flow-thru electrolyte cell. But things would be a lot simplier in this experiment if there was an electrolyte (like in the P&F and CETI cells) that is not "consumed" during the electrolysis (i.e. only H2 and O2 evolution). Using HCl electrolyte, it is easier to maintain the Ph in the proper acid region simply by periodic addition of a electrolyte with a higher molar concentration of HCl. Wasserman did not discuss any other electrolytes for use in the Al electrolysis experiments in his paper and patent. And usually, since his prime interest (originally) was in the positive affect that cathodic treatment of Al had on the subsequent electroplating of other metals (such as Chromium), Wasserman did not plan for long operation of his cells. More than 1 hour of operation would be considered long. Using HCl and carefully controlling the Ph, I was able to run cells for up to two days or so. Although I was only learning as I was doing about the chemistry, I did try several different electrolytes, such as that used by Mills et. al. (K2CO3 and Na2CO3). Both of these produced unusual byproducts in the electrolyte during electrolysis which quickly interfered with the cell operation. Some experiments with H2SO4 electrolytes seemed promising, but I did not complete my work with these. Note that with acidic electrolytes, it seems very important to determine "safe" Ph levels which do not have bad effects on the cathode. Too acidic desolves metal, not enough acidic seems to produce suspended oxides and/or hydroxides (Al2O3, etc.). Also, to some extent, corrosion in this type of cell is controlled by the actual potential on the cathode. This effect is known as cathodic protection and is apparently used in some situations where corrosion of Al is a problem. >... >More complicated ways would be to apply pressurised H2 gas to a very very >clean Al sample, Using this approach, do you think it would be necessary to clean the surface in an inert atmosphere in order to minimize or eliminate the oxide layer? Al is a very chemically active metal without its tight protective oxide layer present. Apparently hydrogen ions and/or atoms created during electrolysis can penetrate the oxide layer to some extent, but I am unsure as to whether there is a sufficient chemical potential to allow H2 to be adsorbed and split on the Al and/or Al2O3 surface. Although some literature does claim that Al is a reasonable H2-O2 re-combination catalyst. Can you site any literature where the gas phase loading technique is used successfully with Al? > or to fire a beam of protons at such a sample. That's how >Kamada did it (Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. 31 (1992) L1287), and he got down to >about 50 nm and a quite high density of hydrogen, 6*10^22 "molecules"/cm^3 or >a molar hydrogen volume of about 10 cm^3, i.e. a loading H/Al of about 1. Yes. I have also obtained several other papers concerning the mobility of H in Al where this same ion implantation method was used. As I said, I have no references to any other loading technique for Al. Kamada does state in one of his papers that it is necessary to carefully choose the implantation energy in order to minimize damage to the metal lattice and in order to obtain what he calls "tunnel-like structures" on the Al surface that are visible via TEM. He has found that the appearance of these tunnel-like structures [perhaps signifying the fomation of Alane (AlH3) polymer chains] is necessary in order to obtain the anomalous nuclear effects. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:01:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA25040 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA24998 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA19069; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:33:32 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:33:32 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction In-Reply-To: <199602011413.JAA04489@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Bill Page wrote: > Scott (and others), > > We have heard a lot here about the cathode construction of the > Patterson Power Cell, but I recall from the demo and discussion > at ICCF5 that this cell also uses a novel type of anode. Like the > cathode, the anode also consists of a packed bed beads but rather > of some special (at the time undisclosed) type of resin beads in > addition to the platinum wire mesh. The purpose of the resin beads, > as I understood at the time, was to greatly improve (decrease?) > the electrical overpotential at the anode where oxygen is liberated > through some kind of ion exchange process. This is mumbo jumbo. The Pt would be the anode, and the better access to it you give the current, the better you are off. Putting a bed of non-conducting beads in the way would only increase the cell voltage. Any kind of ion exchange process would be irrelevant here. > BTW, I would guess that the use of this special anode may be > part of the reason that reversal of polarity has a disasterous > effect on the CETI cell. What do you think? As I have said here before, the disaster of current reversal is due to the fact that one would immediately start to dissolve nickel, i.e. attack the beads' surface. People have, if I remember rightly, reported seeing the solution between the beads go green upon reversal; that's Ni dissolving as Ni++ ions. My advice: don't do it! One can wonder why McKubre suggested it; maybe he didn't know the cathode was Ni, thought it was Pd. McKubre knows his stuff. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:12:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA03020 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA02923 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA28924; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:55:01 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:55:01 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199602011511.KAA05235@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Bill Page wrote: [...] > With your background in electrochemistry, would you consider Li2SO4 to > be a "safe" electrolyte for Aluminum at a cathodic potential in a > electrolysis cell? Specifically, are there likely to be any undesirable > chemical reactions? How will the oxide layer on the cathode be affected > by the electrolyte? Would Al desolve into the solution? Although I > searched, I did not find any information in the electrochemistry > literature about the behaviour of Al under these conditions. Do > you have any suggestions as to where I might look? Almost everything > I found concerned how to keep hydrogen out of the Al (to prevent > mechanical failure, corrosive effects, etc.) not how to get it > into the metal. I picked this electrolyte for being neutral and (unlike, e.g., chloride) being inert at both electrodes. Sodium or potassium sulphate would do equally well. As you know, Al dissolves in both acid and alkali. If the solution is well mixed during electrolysis, its composition (pH) should not change. I don't know of any books that mention the aqueous electrochemistry of Al; they are all focussed on the salt melt process, for good reasons. But try Chem. Abstr. [...] > As is well known in industrial electrochemistry there are temperature > dependent effects on what actually happens in a saline cell and > different (industrially important) Chlorine compounds can be formed. > Wasserman avoids this by using a non-return flow-thru electrolyte > cell. But things would be a lot simplier in this experiment if there > was an electrolyte (like in the P&F and CETI cells) that is not > "consumed" during the electrolysis (i.e. only H2 and O2 evolution). As I say, avoid chloride, it's bad news here. Corrosion should not be a problem, though, since the Al will be at strongly cathodic potentials, as you in fact allude to: > Also, to some extent, corrosion in this type of cell is controlled > by the actual potential on the cathode. This effect is known as > cathodic protection and is apparently used in some situations where > corrosion of Al is a problem. > >More complicated ways would be to apply pressurised H2 gas to a very very > >clean Al sample, > > Using this approach, do you think it would be necessary to clean the > surface in an inert atmosphere in order to minimize or eliminate the > oxide layer? Al is a very chemically active metal without its tight > protective oxide layer present. Apparently hydrogen ions and/or atoms > created during electrolysis can penetrate the oxide layer to some > extent, but I am unsure as to whether there is a sufficient chemical > potential to allow H2 to be adsorbed and split on the Al and/or Al2O3 > surface. Although some literature does claim that Al is a reasonable > H2-O2 re-combination catalyst. Well, this oxide layer is pretty dense and might block H2. H2 is a good reducing agent, though, but not so good at room temp.; so maybe you'd have to heat the degreased bit of Al in a furnace under H2, to reduce the oxide layer, and then make sure that oxygen doesn't get at it before you apply the room temp. hydrogen. That's just a guess, I know next to nothing about this. I do remember reading that some early gas loading experiments with Ti are now thought not to have loaded the Ti much at all, because of an oxide layer. > Can you site any literature where the gas phase loading technique is > used successfully with Al? Neither site, nor cite; sorry. I suspect this hasn't been done. But: it wouldn't hurt to take a look at Gmelin, you find a lot of good stuff there. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk