[00:06.560 --> 00:13.720] [______WBAI]: Duke Ellington used to say, every man prays in his own language, and there is no language God does not understand.
[00:14.240 --> 00:16.950] [______WBAI]: For Ellington, of course, the language was jazz.
[00:17.260 --> 00:25.700] [______WBAI]: The great band leader was close to Pastor Gensel and composed this tome poem to honor the man he called, the shepherd who watches over the night block.
[00:26.180 --> 00:28.080] [______WBAI]: I'm Andy Lancet in New York.
[00:30.350 --> 00:33.980] [______WBAI]: And that's some of the news for Monday, June 12, 1989.
[00:34.530 --> 00:36.610] [______WBAI]: The news was engineered by Jennifer Burnett.
[00:36.740 --> 00:41.800] [______WBAI]: It was produced with Julie Cohn, Steve Enscape, Joshua Isay, Marika Martin, and Ken Wolfe.
[00:41.960 --> 00:47.520] [______WBAI]: I'm Amy Goodman in New York with Tara Seiler in Washington for WBAI Listener Supported News.
[00:52.410 --> 01:00.570] [EVILCORLEY]: And you heard that rebroadcast of the evening news here on Listener Supported WBAI in New York at 99.5 FM.
[01:00.570 --> 01:02.450] [EVILCORLEY]: My name's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:02.610 --> 01:11.410] [EVILCORLEY]: I'll be filling in for Margo Adler tonight, as we do Unstuck in Time, and listen to the sounds of civilization.
[01:16.510 --> 01:28.750] [SPEAKER_19]: The bitter road to the Democratic Convention via New Hampshire, Oregon, California, had its climax not just at the amphitheater, but in Lincoln and Grant Parks, and in the streets of Chicago.
[01:29.670 --> 01:31.570] [SPEAKER_19]: Lyndon Johnson never left the ranch.
[01:31.970 --> 01:33.550] [SPEAKER_19]: Robert Kennedy was dead.
[01:34.070 --> 01:37.190] [SPEAKER_19]: Eugene McCarthy was now just really going through the motions.
[01:37.890 --> 01:41.830] [SPEAKER_19]: George McGovern was a stand-in for some of the anti-war vote.
[01:42.510 --> 01:44.490] [SPEAKER_19]: Hubert Humphrey was the survivor.
[01:44.990 --> 01:56.630] [SPEAKER_14]: So, ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to present to this convention the name of Hubert Horatio Humphrey as nominee for the President of the United States.
[01:56.930 --> 01:58.110] [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you very much.
[02:00.690 --> 02:07.350] [SPEAKER_19]: Some said that Hubert Humphrey lost the election on Wednesday night in Chicago when he won the nomination.
[02:07.350 --> 02:12.550] [SPEAKER_19]: Two arenas of the absurd were simultaneously playing out their furious drive.
[02:12.970 --> 02:15.070] [SPEAKER_19]: At the amphitheater, the politicians.
[02:15.910 --> 02:19.690] [SPEAKER_19]: Aliotto, Stokes, Albert, and the endless roll-off.
[02:19.810 --> 02:21.550] [SPEAKER_10]: Arizona, 19.
[02:31.070 --> 02:34.710] [SPEAKER_19]: Downtown on Michigan and Balboa Avenue is the protesters.
[02:35.370 --> 02:38.510] [SPEAKER_19]: Dullinger, Hayden, Davis, Reuben, Hoffman.
[02:51.580 --> 02:54.360] [SPEAKER_19]: The signs, the songs, and the chants.
[02:58.550 --> 03:01.230] [SPEAKER_19]: Sig Hyde, the whole world is watching.
[03:01.470 --> 03:02.070] [SPEAKER_19]: Peace now.
[03:03.210 --> 03:04.170] [SPEAKER_19]: Dump the Humphrey.
[03:04.390 --> 03:05.890] [SPEAKER_02]: Hit the bayonets high with the order.
[03:06.190 --> 03:06.790] [SPEAKER_02]: About face.
[03:07.050 --> 03:07.870] [SPEAKER_19]: Stop the war.
[03:07.870 --> 03:10.590] [SPEAKER_02]: And now they've got the demonstrators on the ramp up on the street.
[03:18.030 --> 03:23.670] [SPEAKER_19]: Police, the National Guard, the tear gas, the counter-drama between the Rossman and the paddy wagon.
[03:23.970 --> 03:24.910] [SPEAKER_02]: Guys move ahead.
[03:25.170 --> 03:26.490] [SPEAKER_02]: Pushing, pushing ahead.
[03:26.870 --> 03:28.290] [SPEAKER_02]: The demonstrators move back.
[03:29.210 --> 03:34.090] [SPEAKER_02]: And among the demonstrators, some people who are not demonstrators, individuals caught in the middle of it.
[03:36.490 --> 03:42.190] [SPEAKER_19]: The yippies, the hippies, the sirens, the police clubs, the mace, the flying wedges.
[03:42.190 --> 03:47.590] [SPEAKER_19]: And sister radios piped the archaic convention oratory into the frenzied streets.
[03:49.750 --> 03:54.630] [SPEAKER_19]: Portable television sets fed the scene in the streets back to the disbelieving home.
[04:00.060 --> 04:03.420] [SPEAKER_13]: Three policemen approached them, hollering and waving their sticks.
[04:03.880 --> 04:06.300] [SPEAKER_13]: The crowd wavered and fell apart.
[04:06.440 --> 04:07.200] [SPEAKER_13]: They were retreating.
[04:07.440 --> 04:13.840] [SPEAKER_13]: And this is what I was filming when, from behind me somewhere, came a herd of policemen running.
[04:14.680 --> 04:20.880] [SPEAKER_13]: And I had my camera up, and one policeman gave me a show, and I don't even think he said anything.
[04:21.040 --> 04:22.740] [SPEAKER_13]: He gave me a show, and I said, CBS News.
[04:22.940 --> 04:23.520] [SPEAKER_13]: And he said, whack.
[04:24.020 --> 04:24.800] [SPEAKER_13]: That's just a hint.
[04:25.140 --> 04:35.040] [SPEAKER_19]: Senator Abraham Rivet, nominating George McGovern, laced the two images together in a speech made more terrifying by the film and tape that illustrated it.
[04:35.040 --> 04:56.300] [SPEAKER_03]: Mr. Chairman, I have a speech here as I look at the confusion in this hall and watch on television the turmoil and violence that is competing with this great convention for the attention of the American people.
[04:57.600 --> 05:03.180] [SPEAKER_03]: There is something else in my heart tonight, and not the speech that I am prepared to give.
[05:03.780 --> 05:13.220] [SPEAKER_03]: The youth of America rallied to the standards of men like George McGovern, like they did to the standards of John F.
[05:13.280 --> 05:15.060] [SPEAKER_03]: Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
[05:15.060 --> 05:24.200] [SPEAKER_03]: And with George McGovern as President of the United States, we wouldn't have to have Gestapo static in the streets of Chicago.
[05:24.640 --> 05:27.840] [SPEAKER_03]: With George McGovern, we wouldn't have a National Guard.
[05:35.090 --> 05:36.230] [SPEAKER_11]: Move back.
[05:36.510 --> 05:37.210] [SPEAKER_11]: Move back.
[05:40.220 --> 05:47.640] [SPEAKER_03]: How hard it is to accept the truth when we know the problems facing our nation.
[05:48.540 --> 05:50.820] [SPEAKER_19]: Mob riot or police riot.
[05:51.300 --> 05:52.960] [SPEAKER_19]: Conspiracy or brutality.
[05:53.460 --> 05:55.860] [SPEAKER_19]: The courts would spend years deciding that.
[05:56.380 --> 05:59.540] [SPEAKER_19]: Mayor Daley began his defense of the Chicago police that night.
[06:00.120 --> 06:03.360] [SPEAKER_11]: The confrontation was not created by the police.
[06:03.620 --> 06:08.040] [SPEAKER_11]: The confrontation was created by the people who charged the police.
[06:08.420 --> 06:10.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Gentlemen, get the thing straight once and for all.
[06:10.920 --> 06:13.340] [SPEAKER_11]: The policeman isn't there to create disorder.
[06:13.980 --> 06:16.340] [SPEAKER_11]: The policeman is there to preserve disorder.
[06:16.580 --> 06:27.660] [SPEAKER_19]: The wounded included those being nursed in improvised infirmaries on upper floors of the Conrad Hilton Hotel and the battered vice president who told his wife he felt as if he'd been in a shipwreck.
[06:28.080 --> 06:30.520] [SPEAKER_19]: Hubert Horatio Humphrey told the delegates.
[06:31.740 --> 06:40.600] [SPEAKER_01]: I say to this great convention tonight and to this great nation of ours, I am ready to lead our country.
[06:57.270 --> 07:00.570] [SPEAKER_20]: Mother, father, I'm here in the zoo.
[07:00.910 --> 07:04.310] [SPEAKER_20]: I can't come home because I've known him too soon.
[07:04.450 --> 07:07.490] [SPEAKER_20]: I got my sentence, I got my command.
[07:07.790 --> 07:11.310] [SPEAKER_20]: They said they'd make me major if I've met a dirty man.
[07:12.830 --> 07:19.610] [SPEAKER_20]: I could be a carpool and a carpool punishment or the general manager of a large establishment.
[07:20.070 --> 07:23.350] [SPEAKER_20]: They've got some supplies on the back and put some to the ride.
[07:23.350 --> 07:26.730] [SPEAKER_20]: But I never thought they'd put me in the good squad.
[07:28.230 --> 07:32.170] [SPEAKER_20]: Good squad, they've come to walk you over and they've given you the ride.
[07:33.750 --> 07:38.430] [SPEAKER_20]: Good squad, they'll watch you to come out to play.
[07:38.690 --> 07:39.830] [SPEAKER_20]: You better say goodbye.
[07:49.550 --> 07:53.030] [SPEAKER_20]: Some grow up just like the dads, and some grow up to tomorrow.
[07:53.290 --> 07:56.510] [SPEAKER_20]: Some go drinking with the lads, some won't grow up at all.
[07:56.710 --> 07:59.970] [SPEAKER_20]: You must find the proper place for everything you see.
[07:59.970 --> 08:03.750] [SPEAKER_20]: But you'll never get to make a laugh straight out of me.
[08:05.130 --> 08:08.470] [SPEAKER_20]: I could join a chain of mail for being a piece of rings.
[08:08.710 --> 08:11.930] [SPEAKER_20]: But looking for a lucky girl to put me in the pink.
[08:12.310 --> 08:15.530] [SPEAKER_20]: They've got some good guys on the back and put some to the ride.
[08:15.690 --> 08:19.030] [SPEAKER_20]: But I never thought they'd put me in the good squad.
[08:20.810 --> 08:24.310] [SPEAKER_20]: They're going to move you over and they're giving you the ride.
[08:25.690 --> 08:26.950] [SPEAKER_20]: Good squad.
[08:28.610 --> 08:29.070] [SPEAKER_20]: Good squad.
[08:29.070 --> 08:30.370] [SPEAKER_20]: They're going to do the magic.
[08:30.690 --> 08:32.250] [SPEAKER_20]: They better say goodbye.
[08:53.510 --> 08:56.170] [SPEAKER_20]: In case you could be in for a shot.
[08:57.390 --> 09:00.810] [SPEAKER_20]: Thinking of the alibis that everyone's forgotten.
[09:01.150 --> 09:04.310] [SPEAKER_20]: Just another purpose but gone to the ride.
[09:04.510 --> 09:07.850] [SPEAKER_20]: So they've got some goodbyes on the back and put some to the ride.
[09:08.050 --> 09:11.270] [SPEAKER_20]: But I never thought they'd put me in the good squad.
[09:12.990 --> 09:17.090] [SPEAKER_20]: They're going to move you over and they're giving you the ride.
[09:18.290 --> 09:19.610] [SPEAKER_20]: They're going to do the squad.
[09:20.810 --> 09:23.010] [SPEAKER_20]: No answers to come out of the way.
[09:23.210 --> 09:24.430] [SPEAKER_20]: You better say goodbye.
[09:49.040 --> 09:54.640] [EVILCORLEY]: As I listen to those two pieces, I have to ask a question.
[09:54.900 --> 09:56.020] [EVILCORLEY]: A question of us all.
[09:56.020 --> 10:03.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Wouldn't it be so much easier, so much simpler, if we were all the same?
[10:03.540 --> 10:07.880] [EVILCORLEY]: We wouldn't have any Chicago 1968s.
[10:07.880 --> 10:10.180] [EVILCORLEY]: We wouldn't have any Beijing 1989s.
[10:11.180 --> 10:14.540] [EVILCORLEY]: We could all live in placid harmony.
[10:16.080 --> 10:26.600] [EVILCORLEY]: We heard from Elvis Costello, a song called Goon Squad, and Walter Cronkite, probably the only time those two have ever been back-to-back on anything.
[10:28.860 --> 10:34.300] [EVILCORLEY]: With kind of a compilation of events from the 1960s, the way it was.
[10:35.900 --> 10:44.380] [EVILCORLEY]: And you can watch the wonder years, you can think all sentimental about how nice the 60s were.
[10:44.680 --> 10:47.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Not that the wonder years does that.
[10:47.560 --> 10:52.080] [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of it is very serious, but it was hell.
[10:52.400 --> 10:54.880] [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of it was living hell.
[10:56.080 --> 11:00.600] [EVILCORLEY]: As I'm sure many people listening already know.
[11:00.780 --> 11:01.980] [EVILCORLEY]: You don't need me to tell you that.
[11:05.160 --> 11:07.060] [EVILCORLEY]: It's an interesting parallel.
[11:07.240 --> 11:12.940] [EVILCORLEY]: To look back on this country in the 1960s, and to look at China, what's happening over there now.
[11:13.880 --> 11:16.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Many differences, of course, but...
[11:16.820 --> 11:18.780] [EVILCORLEY]: The basic feeling is the same.
[11:18.960 --> 11:24.920] [EVILCORLEY]: And it's interesting, because a couple of weeks ago, the date was June 3rd.
[11:26.220 --> 11:32.540] [EVILCORLEY]: And I was rummaging through my papers, and I suddenly said to myself, Oh my God, it's been ten years.
[11:32.540 --> 11:34.100] [EVILCORLEY]: June 3rd, 1979.
[11:35.200 --> 11:39.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Was that day that I climbed the fence at the nuclear power plant out in Shoreham, Long Island.
[11:41.560 --> 11:43.740] [EVILCORLEY]: I wonder if anyone listening was a part of that.
[11:43.740 --> 11:46.940] [EVILCORLEY]: But odds are somebody was, because so many people were out there that day.
[11:47.100 --> 11:54.860] [EVILCORLEY]: And I'll never forget the way we looked forward to what we would be doing.
[11:55.100 --> 12:01.660] [EVILCORLEY]: We would be questioning authority in a way that was different for most of us.
[12:01.760 --> 12:22.420] [EVILCORLEY]: We would actually be going to a place that we did not like, mainly a nuclear power plant, and doing what we call civil disobedience, where you knowingly violate the law, and know that in all odds you will be arrested for it.
[12:22.500 --> 12:24.860] [EVILCORLEY]: But that is your way of making a statement.
[12:25.920 --> 12:27.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Everybody has their own way of making a statement.
[12:28.120 --> 12:30.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Some people write letters to the editor.
[12:30.220 --> 12:31.920] [EVILCORLEY]: Some people go to demonstrations.
[12:31.960 --> 12:33.960] [EVILCORLEY]: Some people get arrested.
[12:35.680 --> 12:37.280] [EVILCORLEY]: Some people become terrorists.
[12:38.000 --> 12:40.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Everybody has their own little way of contributing.
[12:41.860 --> 12:52.500] [EVILCORLEY]: But my particular way back in 1979 was to go to this demonstration, and for the first time in my life take part in civil disobedience, which involved climbing the fence at Shoreham.
[12:55.080 --> 13:03.740] [EVILCORLEY]: And as I look back on this event ten years later, I try to recreate the feeling that I was going through at the time.
[13:03.960 --> 13:10.780] [EVILCORLEY]: And boy, I can't describe enough what the feeling is if you have not been through it yourself.
[13:10.780 --> 13:27.200] [EVILCORLEY]: When you realize that you're venturing into the unknown, and you don't know what is going to happen to you, because you're going up against these forces that you have never gone up against before.
[13:28.700 --> 13:29.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Authority.
[13:30.120 --> 13:32.000] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, authority with guns.
[13:32.000 --> 13:36.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Authority with militia.
[13:37.220 --> 13:39.340] [EVILCORLEY]: And metallic objects.
[13:39.520 --> 13:43.760] [EVILCORLEY]: And all kinds of hard things like that on their side.
[13:43.760 --> 13:49.080] [EVILCORLEY]: And you're just one individual person trying to make a statement.
[13:50.380 --> 13:52.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that's the person I was.
[13:53.320 --> 14:05.860] [EVILCORLEY]: And along with a few of my friends, we engaged in what we called the civil disobedience training sessions, which took place at somebody's house over the course of a few weeks.
[14:06.420 --> 14:12.140] [EVILCORLEY]: And we went through all kinds of different role-playing scenarios.
[14:12.140 --> 14:16.640] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, what would happen if a policeman charged you with a club?
[14:16.860 --> 14:21.020] [EVILCORLEY]: What would happen if a policeman said something derogatory about your grandmother?
[14:21.020 --> 14:25.460] [EVILCORLEY]: What would happen if the rest of your group were torn apart?
[14:25.700 --> 14:29.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Or if some people in your group decided to do something else and break apart?
[14:30.400 --> 14:31.580] [EVILCORLEY]: What would you do?
[14:31.720 --> 14:32.780] [EVILCORLEY]: How would you react?
[14:34.740 --> 14:41.620] [EVILCORLEY]: And it's one thing to question that in your mind as you're falling asleep.
[14:43.500 --> 14:48.900] [EVILCORLEY]: But to actually realize that this could be happening to you and it was imminent.
[14:50.000 --> 14:51.280] [EVILCORLEY]: That's something different.
[14:51.740 --> 14:55.920] [EVILCORLEY]: That's something that you learn about yourself.
[14:55.920 --> 15:01.900] [EVILCORLEY]: You learn where your values end and where your fears begin.
[15:04.680 --> 15:11.380] [EVILCORLEY]: So, I'll have to admit I was a bit nervous going into June 3rd, 1979.
[15:12.660 --> 15:14.300] [EVILCORLEY]: And the day came.
[15:16.160 --> 15:23.120] [EVILCORLEY]: I remember waking up that morning and saying, Gosh darn it all, I don't know if I've ever seen rain like that.
[15:24.380 --> 15:27.940] [EVILCORLEY]: It rained, it poured, if anybody was there, they certainly remember that.
[15:29.760 --> 15:32.100] [EVILCORLEY]: And it didn't stop the people from coming.
[15:34.400 --> 15:38.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Thousands of people showed up and rallied on the beach.
[15:38.380 --> 15:48.860] [EVILCORLEY]: And our group of people took a bus out to Shoreham and got off and started marching towards the plant in the pouring rain.
[15:49.740 --> 15:53.360] [EVILCORLEY]: Getting soaking wet, wondering with every step if it was going to be worth it.
[15:54.060 --> 15:55.280] [EVILCORLEY]: If we were going to be hurt.
[15:56.600 --> 15:59.100] [EVILCORLEY]: If we would regret this for the rest of our lives.
[15:59.180 --> 16:00.820] [EVILCORLEY]: And to borrow a line from the wonder years.
[16:01.100 --> 16:03.880] [EVILCORLEY]: If it would go on our permanent record.
[16:07.660 --> 16:11.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, to make a long story short, we got to the fence.
[16:12.680 --> 16:15.260] [EVILCORLEY]: And somebody threw a blanket over the barbed wire.
[16:15.420 --> 16:17.940] [EVILCORLEY]: And one by one, we all climbed over the fence.
[16:18.820 --> 16:22.680] [EVILCORLEY]: And into the arms of a police officer or two.
[16:23.960 --> 16:25.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Who said to each one of us.
[16:27.520 --> 16:29.100] [EVILCORLEY]: You're under arrest.
[16:31.360 --> 16:34.220] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know how many people have actually had those words said to them.
[16:34.320 --> 16:36.460] [EVILCORLEY]: But when they are said to you.
[16:41.120 --> 16:44.140] [EVILCORLEY]: You realize... these people are playing for real.
[16:44.680 --> 16:46.060] [EVILCORLEY]: This is not a game.
[16:46.220 --> 16:47.040] [EVILCORLEY]: This is...
[16:48.000 --> 16:49.420] [EVILCORLEY]: This is the major leagues.
[16:51.340 --> 16:52.320] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh...
[16:53.000 --> 16:54.340] [EVILCORLEY]: That's when I really got scared.
[16:54.340 --> 16:56.160] [EVILCORLEY]: Because they...
[16:56.160 --> 16:58.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Put the plastic handcuffs on us.
[16:58.340 --> 16:59.560] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that didn't scare me too much.
[16:59.700 --> 17:00.640] [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh...
[17:00.640 --> 17:02.720] [EVILCORLEY]: They kind of put us all on the bus.
[17:04.720 --> 17:06.220] [EVILCORLEY]: We all kind of kept our spirit.
[17:06.400 --> 17:07.420] [EVILCORLEY]: We were talking to each other.
[17:07.640 --> 17:08.340] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh...
[17:08.340 --> 17:09.580] [EVILCORLEY]: We were happy, you know?
[17:10.620 --> 17:11.580] [EVILCORLEY]: We were positive.
[17:11.600 --> 17:12.340] [EVILCORLEY]: We were...
[17:13.400 --> 17:15.560] [EVILCORLEY]: Confident that what we were saying would be heard.
[17:18.740 --> 17:19.540] [EVILCORLEY]: And then...
[17:20.080 --> 17:21.320] [EVILCORLEY]: The bus drove away.
[17:23.180 --> 17:23.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Took us...
[17:23.980 --> 17:25.980] [EVILCORLEY]: To the sheriff's precinct where...
[17:26.500 --> 17:28.160] [EVILCORLEY]: We were all put in a cell.
[17:29.680 --> 17:31.500] [EVILCORLEY]: And for the first time in my life...
[17:31.500 --> 17:33.320] [EVILCORLEY]: No, actually, the second time in my life...
[17:33.320 --> 17:34.280] [EVILCORLEY]: I had been confined...
[17:34.280 --> 17:36.380] [EVILCORLEY]: And there was no way for me to get out of the situation.
[17:36.380 --> 17:38.100] [EVILCORLEY]: The first time I was confined...
[17:38.580 --> 17:39.280] [EVILCORLEY]: Was, uh...
[17:39.280 --> 17:41.220] [EVILCORLEY]: When I went on a whale-watching expedition...
[17:41.220 --> 17:42.080] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh...
[17:42.080 --> 17:43.400] [EVILCORLEY]: Couldn't get off the boat and got sick.
[17:44.200 --> 17:44.860] [EVILCORLEY]: This, uh...
[17:44.860 --> 17:46.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Was a bit more scary than that.
[17:47.200 --> 17:48.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Being locked up in jail...
[17:49.100 --> 17:49.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Realizing...
[17:49.460 --> 17:51.080] [EVILCORLEY]: There was no way to leave.
[17:52.360 --> 17:52.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Well...
[17:52.980 --> 17:54.640] [EVILCORLEY]: As it turned out...
[17:54.640 --> 17:56.300] [EVILCORLEY]: That situation was probably...
[17:56.300 --> 17:58.520] [EVILCORLEY]: One of the most pleasant of my entire life...
[17:58.520 --> 17:59.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Because, um...
[18:00.000 --> 18:01.640] [EVILCORLEY]: I was in jail with my friends.
[18:03.620 --> 18:04.240] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[18:04.240 --> 18:05.940] [EVILCORLEY]: The law enforcement people...
[18:06.720 --> 18:07.340] [EVILCORLEY]: There...
[18:07.340 --> 18:09.820] [EVILCORLEY]: Treated us as if...
[18:09.820 --> 18:12.000] [EVILCORLEY]: We had done something courageous...
[18:12.000 --> 18:13.520] [EVILCORLEY]: By making a statement.
[18:14.820 --> 18:15.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Now...
[18:16.060 --> 18:18.480] [EVILCORLEY]: I realize that must be a completely...
[18:18.480 --> 18:20.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Alien way of, uh...
[18:20.700 --> 18:22.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Of dealing with demonstrators.
[18:22.200 --> 18:22.640] [EVILCORLEY]: Because...
[18:22.640 --> 18:23.780] [EVILCORLEY]: As you look around the world...
[18:23.780 --> 18:24.740] [EVILCORLEY]: That's not the way it's done.
[18:25.100 --> 18:25.680] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean...
[18:25.680 --> 18:27.220] [EVILCORLEY]: We Americans can't get anything right.
[18:28.540 --> 18:28.980] [EVILCORLEY]: But...
[18:28.980 --> 18:31.380] [EVILCORLEY]: That's how it was done on June 3rd, 1979.
[18:32.120 --> 18:32.560] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[18:32.560 --> 18:34.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Those were my thoughts going...
[18:34.460 --> 18:36.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Going through my head on June 3rd, 1989.
[18:38.660 --> 18:40.280] [EVILCORLEY]: I was thinking...
[18:40.280 --> 18:41.660] [EVILCORLEY]: That was quite a day.
[18:43.320 --> 18:45.240] [EVILCORLEY]: That changed my life.
[18:46.110 --> 18:47.460] [EVILCORLEY]: And naturally...
[18:47.460 --> 18:49.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Naturally, I extended that...
[18:49.300 --> 18:51.840] [EVILCORLEY]: My experiences back then...
[18:51.840 --> 18:53.240] [EVILCORLEY]: To what...
[18:53.240 --> 18:56.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Was going on thousands of miles away...
[18:56.260 --> 18:57.520] [EVILCORLEY]: In Tiananmen Square.
[18:59.380 --> 19:03.100] [EVILCORLEY]: And only a matter of hours later...
[19:03.370 --> 19:04.660] [EVILCORLEY]: The clampdown began.
[19:08.660 --> 19:10.900] [EVILCORLEY]: And it's...
[19:10.900 --> 19:12.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Still something...
[19:12.320 --> 19:14.100] [EVILCORLEY]: So shocking to me...
[19:14.100 --> 19:15.360] [EVILCORLEY]: To realize...
[19:15.360 --> 19:16.540] [EVILCORLEY]: What has happened...
[19:16.540 --> 19:18.140] [EVILCORLEY]: What is currently happening...
[19:18.720 --> 19:20.520] [EVILCORLEY]: In China...
[19:20.520 --> 19:20.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Right now.
[19:23.300 --> 19:25.400] [EVILCORLEY]: Probably the most...
[19:25.400 --> 19:27.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Frightening aspect of...
[19:27.380 --> 19:28.800] [EVILCORLEY]: A totalitarian regime...
[19:28.800 --> 19:29.840] [EVILCORLEY]: Is the way...
[19:29.840 --> 19:30.880] [EVILCORLEY]: In which...
[19:31.960 --> 19:32.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Control...
[19:32.780 --> 19:34.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Is exercised over...
[19:34.500 --> 19:36.160] [EVILCORLEY]: Just about every part of...
[19:36.160 --> 19:37.160] [EVILCORLEY]: Of someone's existence.
[19:38.860 --> 19:39.680] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[19:39.680 --> 19:41.400] [EVILCORLEY]: To see those tanks...
[19:41.400 --> 19:43.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Rolling in...
[19:43.200 --> 19:44.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Crushing everything in their path...
[19:44.680 --> 19:45.220] [EVILCORLEY]: And then...
[19:45.220 --> 19:47.200] [EVILCORLEY]: As we are hearing now...
[19:47.200 --> 19:47.800] [EVILCORLEY]: To...
[19:47.800 --> 19:50.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Hear the official version of how...
[19:50.440 --> 19:52.140] [EVILCORLEY]: How things actually happened...
[19:52.140 --> 19:52.630] [EVILCORLEY]: And how...
[19:52.630 --> 19:55.790] [EVILCORLEY]: No demonstrators were killed...
[19:55.790 --> 19:58.190] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[19:58.190 --> 20:00.310] [EVILCORLEY]: The soldiers...
[20:00.310 --> 20:02.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Were victorious...
[20:04.050 --> 20:04.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Heroes...
[20:07.430 --> 20:09.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Two different demonstrations...
[20:09.770 --> 20:11.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Two totally different outcomes...
[20:12.210 --> 20:14.530] [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to be taking...
[20:14.530 --> 20:16.130] [EVILCORLEY]: Some phone calls...
[20:16.130 --> 20:18.670] [EVILCORLEY]: On this and other subjects...
[20:18.670 --> 20:20.630] [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to hear from people...
[20:20.630 --> 20:21.430] [EVILCORLEY]: As far as their...
[20:21.430 --> 20:23.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Their opinions of what's going on...
[20:23.250 --> 20:24.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Over there...
[20:24.050 --> 20:25.150] [EVILCORLEY]: They have...
[20:25.150 --> 20:26.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Insight as to...
[20:27.590 --> 20:28.950] [EVILCORLEY]: As to how this relates...
[20:28.950 --> 20:29.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Because...
[20:29.910 --> 20:31.150] [EVILCORLEY]: I've been following...
[20:31.150 --> 20:32.810] [EVILCORLEY]: World events...
[20:33.610 --> 20:35.070] [EVILCORLEY]: For a very long time...
[20:35.070 --> 20:36.130] [EVILCORLEY]: As long as I can read...
[20:36.130 --> 20:36.670] [EVILCORLEY]: I suppose...
[20:36.670 --> 20:37.170] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[20:37.170 --> 20:38.930] [EVILCORLEY]: I've seen...
[20:39.630 --> 20:40.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Demonstrations...
[20:40.150 --> 20:40.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Crushed...
[20:40.550 --> 20:42.070] [EVILCORLEY]: I've seen people's movements...
[20:42.070 --> 20:43.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Turned back...
[20:43.070 --> 20:43.950] [EVILCORLEY]: It's got nothing to do with...
[20:43.950 --> 20:45.990] [EVILCORLEY]: With left and right...
[20:45.990 --> 20:47.830] [EVILCORLEY]: It doesn't matter...
[20:47.830 --> 20:49.230] [EVILCORLEY]: That the people...
[20:49.230 --> 20:50.170] [EVILCORLEY]: In Tiananmen Square...
[20:50.170 --> 20:51.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Were marching for democracy...
[20:51.850 --> 20:52.990] [EVILCORLEY]: It matters that...
[20:52.990 --> 20:55.150] [EVILCORLEY]: They were...
[20:55.150 --> 20:56.450] [EVILCORLEY]: There...
[20:56.450 --> 20:57.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Expressing...
[20:57.490 --> 20:58.830] [EVILCORLEY]: A desire for something...
[20:59.840 --> 21:01.110] [EVILCORLEY]: It would have been just as...
[21:01.110 --> 21:01.630] [EVILCORLEY]: As...
[21:01.630 --> 21:03.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Shocking if they had been...
[21:03.910 --> 21:05.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Marching for...
[21:05.830 --> 21:07.250] [EVILCORLEY]: For a change in a...
[21:07.250 --> 21:08.210] [EVILCORLEY]: In a...
[21:08.210 --> 21:09.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Democratic government...
[21:09.570 --> 21:10.010] [EVILCORLEY]: If...
[21:10.010 --> 21:11.970] [EVILCORLEY]: If this had happened in...
[21:11.970 --> 21:13.290] [EVILCORLEY]: In say, England or something...
[21:13.290 --> 21:14.690] [EVILCORLEY]: And people were marching for...
[21:14.690 --> 21:15.830] [EVILCORLEY]: For communism...
[21:18.950 --> 21:19.870] [EVILCORLEY]: And the same results transpired...
[21:24.990 --> 21:26.810] [EVILCORLEY]: I doubtt a lot of the media would pay attention...
[21:26.810 --> 21:28.770] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm certain a lot of the media would not pay attention...
[21:28.770 --> 21:29.110] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean...
[21:29.110 --> 21:30.490] [EVILCORLEY]: You have only to look at...
[21:30.490 --> 21:32.870] [EVILCORLEY]: At rightist regimes in South America...
[21:32.870 --> 21:33.370] [EVILCORLEY]: That...
[21:33.370 --> 21:35.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Basically have done the same thing...
[21:35.370 --> 21:36.170] [EVILCORLEY]: Although maybe...
[21:36.170 --> 21:37.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Not as efficiently...
[21:40.010 --> 21:40.470] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[21:40.470 --> 21:42.690] [EVILCORLEY]: President Bush...
[21:43.310 --> 21:45.990] [EVILCORLEY]: And ABC News...
[21:46.610 --> 21:49.610] [EVILCORLEY]: Might devote a little bit of time to it...
[21:50.410 --> 21:52.170] [EVILCORLEY]: But that's it...
[21:53.010 --> 21:54.270] [EVILCORLEY]: So there is...
[21:54.270 --> 21:55.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Most definitely...
[21:55.630 --> 21:57.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Some bias here...
[21:57.750 --> 22:00.050] [EVILCORLEY]: And we also have to ask ourselves...
[22:00.050 --> 22:02.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Why is China so much on our minds?
[22:03.130 --> 22:03.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Well...
[22:03.550 --> 22:05.050] [EVILCORLEY]: I think the answer is obvious...
[22:05.050 --> 22:07.070] [EVILCORLEY]: China is so much on our minds because...
[22:07.070 --> 22:10.430] [EVILCORLEY]: It's so much on our damn TV sets...
[22:10.430 --> 22:12.010] [EVILCORLEY]: And our newspapers...
[22:12.010 --> 22:13.750] [EVILCORLEY]: It's all over the place...
[22:13.750 --> 22:14.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You can't get...
[22:14.470 --> 22:15.670] [EVILCORLEY]: You can't get away from it...
[22:15.670 --> 22:16.710] [EVILCORLEY]: China is everywhere...
[22:16.710 --> 22:18.790] [EVILCORLEY]: It's happening all over the place...
[22:22.880 --> 22:23.440] [EVILCORLEY]: So...
[22:24.300 --> 22:26.480] [EVILCORLEY]: That's why it's on our minds...
[22:27.020 --> 22:28.120] [EVILCORLEY]: Now you tell me...
[22:28.120 --> 22:29.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Why don't we think about Campuchia?
[22:30.020 --> 22:31.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Why don't we think about Iran?
[22:32.180 --> 22:33.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Why don't we think about Chile?
[22:36.760 --> 22:37.880] [EVILCORLEY]: And countless...
[22:37.880 --> 22:39.840] [EVILCORLEY]: Countless other places...
[22:39.840 --> 22:41.820] [EVILCORLEY]: The reason is...
[22:42.920 --> 22:45.420] [EVILCORLEY]: It doesn't get coverage in the media...
[22:45.420 --> 22:46.880] [EVILCORLEY]: Media coverage...
[22:46.880 --> 22:48.140] [EVILCORLEY]: Changes these things...
[22:48.140 --> 22:49.580] [EVILCORLEY]: It brings them out...
[22:49.580 --> 22:51.200] [EVILCORLEY]: It makes us see the people...
[22:51.200 --> 22:52.600] [EVILCORLEY]: The human faces...
[22:52.600 --> 22:54.660] [EVILCORLEY]: And when you see the human faces suffering...
[22:55.660 --> 22:56.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Boy...
[22:56.100 --> 22:58.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Does that make a difference...
[23:00.550 --> 23:01.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Now before we...
[23:01.690 --> 23:03.010] [EVILCORLEY]: We take some phone calls...
[23:03.010 --> 23:03.650] [EVILCORLEY]: The phone number is...
[23:03.650 --> 23:04.570] [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400...
[23:05.350 --> 23:06.430] [EVILCORLEY]: And I would like to know...
[23:06.430 --> 23:06.690] [EVILCORLEY]: What...
[23:07.150 --> 23:08.410] [EVILCORLEY]: What people are thinking...
[23:08.410 --> 23:08.890] [EVILCORLEY]: And try to...
[23:08.890 --> 23:10.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Try to see through...
[23:10.450 --> 23:12.470] [EVILCORLEY]: What the media does...
[23:12.470 --> 23:14.210] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm not saying the media is wrong...
[23:14.210 --> 23:15.510] [EVILCORLEY]: In the way they report it...
[23:16.390 --> 23:17.590] [EVILCORLEY]: But use your, your instincts...
[23:18.610 --> 23:19.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Your judgment...
[23:19.190 --> 23:19.410] [EVILCORLEY]: Say...
[23:19.410 --> 23:19.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Well you know...
[23:19.790 --> 23:21.030] [EVILCORLEY]: This doesn't seem right to me...
[23:21.030 --> 23:21.610] [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe...
[23:21.610 --> 23:23.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe there's something here...
[23:23.430 --> 23:25.070] [EVILCORLEY]: That's not being explored...
[23:26.270 --> 23:26.790] [EVILCORLEY]: We...
[23:26.790 --> 23:28.070] [EVILCORLEY]: We're able to do that...
[23:29.230 --> 23:31.010] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the problem with America...
[23:31.010 --> 23:32.490] [EVILCORLEY]: We are able to do that...
[23:32.490 --> 23:33.610] [EVILCORLEY]: And for some reason...
[23:33.610 --> 23:35.070] [EVILCORLEY]: We try not to...
[23:35.810 --> 23:36.390] [EVILCORLEY]: The number...
[23:36.390 --> 23:37.190] [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400...
[23:37.190 --> 23:38.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Area code 212...
[23:38.830 --> 23:39.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Now...
[23:39.510 --> 23:41.350] [EVILCORLEY]: What I have in my hands...
[23:41.350 --> 23:41.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Right now...
[23:41.770 --> 23:42.830] [EVILCORLEY]: At this very moment...
[23:43.310 --> 23:45.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Is a copy of Beijing Review...
[23:45.790 --> 23:46.670] [EVILCORLEY]: That...
[23:46.670 --> 23:48.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Was sent over from China...
[23:48.630 --> 23:49.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Must have been...
[23:50.050 --> 23:51.930] [EVILCORLEY]: A day before...
[23:51.930 --> 23:53.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Things really started to get bad...
[23:54.930 --> 23:55.450] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[23:56.070 --> 23:56.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Unfortunately...
[23:56.590 --> 23:57.530] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't have the...
[23:57.530 --> 23:58.730] [EVILCORLEY]: The issue...
[23:58.730 --> 24:00.190] [EVILCORLEY]: That dealt the most...
[24:00.190 --> 24:01.330] [EVILCORLEY]: With the student demonstrators...
[24:01.330 --> 24:02.550] [EVILCORLEY]: In that issue...
[24:02.550 --> 24:03.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Was...
[24:03.870 --> 24:04.790] [EVILCORLEY]: An interview...
[24:04.790 --> 24:06.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Interview with Lee Peng...
[24:06.990 --> 24:07.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Actually...
[24:07.850 --> 24:08.930] [EVILCORLEY]: The dialogue between...
[24:08.930 --> 24:10.010] [EVILCORLEY]: The students...
[24:11.330 --> 24:12.050] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[24:12.050 --> 24:12.970] [EVILCORLEY]: The government...
[24:12.970 --> 24:14.330] [EVILCORLEY]: And that was...
[24:14.330 --> 24:16.170] [EVILCORLEY]: That was quite interesting to see...
[24:16.170 --> 24:16.770] [EVILCORLEY]: To see...
[24:16.770 --> 24:18.390] [EVILCORLEY]: What the students were saying...
[24:18.390 --> 24:19.010] [EVILCORLEY]: To the government...
[24:19.010 --> 24:20.130] [EVILCORLEY]: What the government was saying...
[24:20.130 --> 24:20.750] [EVILCORLEY]: In return...
[24:20.750 --> 24:21.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Basically the students...
[24:23.690 --> 24:25.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Wanting their rather vague...
[24:26.490 --> 24:27.130] [EVILCORLEY]: Needs to be addressed...
[24:28.310 --> 24:29.990] [EVILCORLEY]: And the government's saying...
[24:29.990 --> 24:31.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Our first priority...
[24:31.150 --> 24:32.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Is to help the hunger strikers...
[24:32.550 --> 24:34.210] [EVILCORLEY]: And to make sure that they're safe...
[24:34.210 --> 24:36.390] [EVILCORLEY]: That's all we're concerned about...
[24:36.390 --> 24:38.090] [EVILCORLEY]: And this...
[24:38.090 --> 24:39.290] [EVILCORLEY]: This newspaper...
[24:39.290 --> 24:40.030] [EVILCORLEY]: This magazine...
[24:40.030 --> 24:41.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Which is published by the government...
[24:42.890 --> 24:43.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Was...
[24:44.690 --> 24:45.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Giving...
[24:45.330 --> 24:47.410] [EVILCORLEY]: A very pro...
[24:50.210 --> 24:50.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Glance...
[24:50.850 --> 24:51.770] [EVILCORLEY]: You know...
[24:51.770 --> 24:53.150] [EVILCORLEY]: A pro...
[24:53.150 --> 24:55.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Side to the students...
[24:56.910 --> 24:58.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You read an article...
[24:58.470 --> 25:00.010] [EVILCORLEY]: In the Beijing Review...
[25:00.010 --> 25:01.390] [EVILCORLEY]: And you say...
[25:01.390 --> 25:04.090] [EVILCORLEY]: These students are on the right side...
[25:04.090 --> 25:04.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Yet...
[25:04.910 --> 25:06.790] [EVILCORLEY]: The same government...
[25:06.790 --> 25:08.850] [EVILCORLEY]: That put out this magazine...
[25:08.850 --> 25:12.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Was responsible for mowing them down...
[25:13.950 --> 25:15.410] [EVILCORLEY]: To me...
[25:15.410 --> 25:15.830] [EVILCORLEY]: That...
[25:15.830 --> 25:17.650] [EVILCORLEY]: That speaks of...
[25:18.850 --> 25:19.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Some disorganization...
[25:25.110 --> 25:25.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Some confusion anyway...
[25:26.150 --> 25:27.510] [EVILCORLEY]: I'll read an article called...
[25:27.510 --> 25:29.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Students Return to Classes...
[25:31.410 --> 25:32.570] [EVILCORLEY]: This, of course, didn't really happen...
[25:34.610 --> 25:36.250] [EVILCORLEY]: This looked like it was going to happen...
[25:36.250 --> 25:37.130] [EVILCORLEY]: At one point...
[25:37.130 --> 25:38.850] [EVILCORLEY]: But the students came back...
[25:39.410 --> 25:41.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Most of them never really left...
[25:41.430 --> 25:43.190] [EVILCORLEY]: And the demonstration...
[25:43.190 --> 25:44.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Of course...
[25:44.910 --> 25:46.090] [EVILCORLEY]: Got bigger...
[25:46.090 --> 25:48.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Martial law was imposed...
[25:48.070 --> 25:49.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Student organizers...
[25:49.470 --> 25:50.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Have declared an end...
[25:50.630 --> 25:52.090] [EVILCORLEY]: To their two-week class boycott...
[25:52.730 --> 25:53.910] [EVILCORLEY]: And have called upon...
[25:53.910 --> 25:55.290] [EVILCORLEY]: All striking students in Beijing...
[25:55.290 --> 25:56.510] [EVILCORLEY]: To return to classes...
[25:56.510 --> 25:57.310] [EVILCORLEY]: From May 5th...
[25:58.290 --> 25:59.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Their announcement...
[25:59.430 --> 26:00.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Was made May 4th...
[26:00.450 --> 26:01.850] [EVILCORLEY]: In a massive student demonstration...
[26:01.850 --> 26:03.130] [EVILCORLEY]: In Beijing's Tiananmen Square...
[26:03.590 --> 26:04.710] [EVILCORLEY]: While they repeated...
[26:04.710 --> 26:05.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Their demands for talks...
[26:05.710 --> 26:06.330] [EVILCORLEY]: With state leaders...
[26:06.330 --> 26:08.730] [EVILCORLEY]: This was the third demonstration...
[26:08.730 --> 26:10.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Since mid-April...
[26:10.470 --> 26:12.030] [EVILCORLEY]: In which tens of thousands...
[26:12.030 --> 26:13.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Of students took part...
[26:13.550 --> 26:14.850] [EVILCORLEY]: On the same day...
[26:14.850 --> 26:15.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Zhao Jiang...
[26:16.010 --> 26:18.330] [EVILCORLEY]: General Secretary of the CPC...
[26:19.110 --> 26:20.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Said that students...
[26:20.210 --> 26:21.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Who had staged demonstrations...
[26:21.470 --> 26:22.330] [EVILCORLEY]: By no means...
[26:22.870 --> 26:24.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Opposed the fundamental system...
[26:24.550 --> 26:24.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Of China...
[26:24.990 --> 26:25.790] [EVILCORLEY]: But rather...
[26:25.790 --> 26:27.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Wanted to have the errors...
[26:27.150 --> 26:28.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Of the party and government...
[26:28.550 --> 26:29.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Corrected...
[26:29.370 --> 26:30.310] [EVILCORLEY]: The students came from...
[26:30.310 --> 26:31.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Dozens of Beijing's universities...
[26:31.950 --> 26:32.630] [EVILCORLEY]: And colleges...
[26:32.870 --> 26:34.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Including Beijing University...
[26:34.630 --> 26:36.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Qinghu University...
[26:36.830 --> 26:38.030] [EVILCORLEY]: People's University...
[26:38.030 --> 26:38.870] [EVILCORLEY]: And Beijing...
[26:38.870 --> 26:39.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Normal University...
[26:40.430 --> 26:41.730] [EVILCORLEY]: To demand democracy...
[26:42.290 --> 26:42.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Press freedom...
[26:43.270 --> 26:44.830] [EVILCORLEY]: And dialogue with government...
[26:46.550 --> 26:48.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Flags and banners...
[26:48.070 --> 26:49.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Fluttered over a sea of students...
[26:49.510 --> 26:52.130] [EVILCORLEY]: That blanketed Tiananmen Square...
[26:52.130 --> 26:53.910] [EVILCORLEY]: And this is the interesting part...
[26:54.650 --> 26:56.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Some of the banners proclaimed...
[26:56.950 --> 26:58.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Support the Communist Party...
[26:58.550 --> 27:00.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Support socialism...
[27:00.010 --> 27:01.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Long live the May 4th spirit...
[27:02.670 --> 27:04.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Dialogues should be sincere...
[27:04.550 --> 27:06.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Give us human rights...
[27:07.330 --> 27:08.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Rule by law...
[27:08.630 --> 27:09.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes...
[27:09.150 --> 27:10.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Rule by man...
[27:12.350 --> 27:13.590] [EVILCORLEY]: No, here's another one...
[27:13.590 --> 27:14.970] [EVILCORLEY]: The news media should be able...
[27:14.970 --> 27:15.690] [EVILCORLEY]: To tell the truth...
[27:17.590 --> 27:18.190] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[27:18.190 --> 27:19.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Oppose embezzlement...
[27:19.350 --> 27:20.550] [EVILCORLEY]: And corruption...
[27:21.630 --> 27:23.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Now this is reported...
[27:23.310 --> 27:24.550] [EVILCORLEY]: In the Beijing Review...
[27:25.630 --> 27:26.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Although the number...
[27:26.770 --> 27:27.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Of striking students...
[27:27.630 --> 27:28.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Was smaller than that...
[27:28.450 --> 27:29.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Of April 27th...
[27:29.550 --> 27:30.930] [EVILCORLEY]: The demonstrators last week...
[27:30.930 --> 27:31.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Came from a much more...
[27:31.830 --> 27:32.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Diverse grouping...
[27:32.910 --> 27:34.410] [EVILCORLEY]: The students from the start...
[27:34.410 --> 27:35.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Had refused to apply...
[27:35.590 --> 27:36.810] [EVILCORLEY]: For advance permission...
[27:36.810 --> 27:37.890] [EVILCORLEY]: From Beijing's...
[27:37.890 --> 27:39.220] [EVILCORLEY]: Municipal Public Security Bureau...
[27:39.450 --> 27:41.210] [EVILCORLEY]: For the demonstration...
[27:41.210 --> 27:42.930] [EVILCORLEY]: May 4th's demonstration...
[27:42.930 --> 27:43.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Has involved at least...
[27:43.910 --> 27:44.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Seventy universities...
[27:44.990 --> 27:46.010] [EVILCORLEY]: And colleges...
[27:46.010 --> 27:46.430] [EVILCORLEY]: With...
[27:46.430 --> 27:48.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Many students coming from...
[27:48.250 --> 27:49.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Schools around the country...
[27:49.250 --> 27:50.270] [EVILCORLEY]: That had never before...
[27:50.270 --> 27:50.960] [EVILCORLEY]: Joined such actions...
[27:52.300 --> 27:53.740] [EVILCORLEY]: A banner reading...
[27:53.740 --> 27:55.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Chinese University of Hong Kong...
[27:55.460 --> 27:56.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Was also seen...
[27:56.340 --> 27:56.960] [EVILCORLEY]: In the procession...
[27:58.600 --> 27:59.720] [EVILCORLEY]: Much attention...
[27:59.720 --> 28:00.200] [EVILCORLEY]: During the demonstration...
[28:00.620 --> 28:01.620] [EVILCORLEY]: Turned to a journalist...
[28:01.620 --> 28:02.920] [EVILCORLEY]: Contingent that appeared...
[28:02.920 --> 28:04.180] [EVILCORLEY]: In the afternoon...
[28:04.780 --> 28:06.060] [EVILCORLEY]: A few hundred journalists...
[28:06.060 --> 28:07.680] [EVILCORLEY]: From the Beijing-based press...
[28:07.680 --> 28:09.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Most of them young...
[28:09.260 --> 28:10.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Joined the students...
[28:10.260 --> 28:11.080] [EVILCORLEY]: And put forth...
[28:11.080 --> 28:12.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Freedom of the press...
[28:12.060 --> 28:13.160] [EVILCORLEY]: As the key slogan...
[28:13.160 --> 28:14.960] [EVILCORLEY]: In their unprecedented action...
[28:16.100 --> 28:17.520] [EVILCORLEY]: The journalist banners...
[28:17.520 --> 28:18.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Also read...
[28:18.440 --> 28:20.380] [EVILCORLEY]: People have the right to know...
[28:20.380 --> 28:21.460] [EVILCORLEY]: The press...
[28:21.460 --> 28:22.220] [EVILCORLEY]: Should be objective...
[28:22.220 --> 28:23.060] [EVILCORLEY]: And fair-minded...
[28:23.060 --> 28:24.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Strengthen press supervision...
[28:24.600 --> 28:26.440] [EVILCORLEY]: To promote political reform...
[28:28.980 --> 28:30.480] [EVILCORLEY]: And on May 4th...
[28:30.480 --> 28:31.580] [EVILCORLEY]: Student demonstrations...
[28:31.580 --> 28:32.740] [EVILCORLEY]: Also shook other big cities...
[28:32.740 --> 28:33.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Such as...
[28:33.480 --> 28:33.900] [EVILCORLEY]: Shanghai...
[28:34.640 --> 28:35.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Wuhan...
[28:36.060 --> 28:36.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Hangzhou...
[28:37.800 --> 28:38.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Nanjing...
[28:38.440 --> 28:39.320] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[28:39.320 --> 28:40.760] [EVILCORLEY]: About half a dozen others...
[28:40.760 --> 28:41.640] [EVILCORLEY]: But I think that...
[28:42.480 --> 28:43.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Gives you an idea...
[28:43.600 --> 28:44.180] [EVILCORLEY]: Of the coverage...
[28:44.180 --> 28:44.980] [EVILCORLEY]: That was taking place...
[28:44.980 --> 28:46.900] [EVILCORLEY]: Before this happened...
[28:48.140 --> 28:50.020] [EVILCORLEY]: The Chinese press...
[28:50.020 --> 28:50.920] [EVILCORLEY]: Beijing Review...
[28:51.900 --> 28:53.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Looked like it was...
[28:54.180 --> 28:56.180] [EVILCORLEY]: It was trying to be objective...
[28:56.180 --> 28:57.480] [EVILCORLEY]: It was trying to...
[28:57.480 --> 28:59.160] [EVILCORLEY]: Give the students a fair chance...
[29:01.700 --> 29:03.800] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that may very well have been...
[29:03.800 --> 29:05.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Which leads me to believe...
[29:05.500 --> 29:06.080] [EVILCORLEY]: That what happened...
[29:07.680 --> 29:09.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Was a surprise to the people...
[29:09.680 --> 29:10.480] [EVILCORLEY]: In the government...
[29:10.480 --> 29:11.220] [EVILCORLEY]: As much of us...
[29:11.220 --> 29:12.460] [EVILCORLEY]: As a surprise to the people...
[29:12.460 --> 29:13.100] [EVILCORLEY]: On the streets...
[29:14.160 --> 29:16.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Obviously not all the people in the government...
[29:16.200 --> 29:16.820] [EVILCORLEY]: But...
[29:18.000 --> 29:19.000] [EVILCORLEY]: Certainly a good many...
[29:19.000 --> 29:20.180] [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that accounts for the...
[29:20.180 --> 29:21.580] [EVILCORLEY]: The period of silence...
[29:21.580 --> 29:22.520] [EVILCORLEY]: When...
[29:23.280 --> 29:24.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Nobody really...
[29:24.540 --> 29:25.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Said anything...
[29:25.680 --> 29:27.680] [EVILCORLEY]: From the official point of view...
[29:28.200 --> 29:29.260] [EVILCORLEY]: But in a...
[29:29.260 --> 29:30.460] [EVILCORLEY]: A regime like that...
[29:30.460 --> 29:30.940] [EVILCORLEY]: If...
[29:30.940 --> 29:31.640] [EVILCORLEY]: You've...
[29:31.640 --> 29:32.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Read Animal Farm...
[29:32.600 --> 29:34.040] [EVILCORLEY]: You know this to be true...
[29:34.040 --> 29:36.560] [EVILCORLEY]: It's very important to...
[29:37.060 --> 29:38.660] [EVILCORLEY]: To support...
[29:39.340 --> 29:41.200] [EVILCORLEY]: The people in power...
[29:43.260 --> 29:45.000] [EVILCORLEY]: Regardless of what they do...
[29:48.530 --> 29:50.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Our telephone number again...
[29:51.070 --> 29:51.790] [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[29:53.310 --> 29:55.110] [EVILCORLEY]: And we'll take calls...
[29:55.110 --> 29:55.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Right after this...
[29:56.330 --> 29:58.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Rather appropriate piece of music...
[31:42.140 --> 31:42.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay...
[31:42.860 --> 31:43.740] [EVILCORLEY]: You're asking...
[31:43.740 --> 31:44.660] [EVILCORLEY]: Why in God's name...
[31:44.660 --> 31:45.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Is he playing that...
[31:45.600 --> 31:47.100] [EVILCORLEY]: That marching band music?
[31:48.130 --> 31:48.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Well...
[31:48.480 --> 31:49.120] [EVILCORLEY]: There's a...
[31:49.120 --> 31:51.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Very good reason for that...
[31:51.020 --> 31:51.580] [EVILCORLEY]: Um...
[31:51.580 --> 31:52.820] [EVILCORLEY]: If you ever watch the...
[31:52.820 --> 31:53.880] [EVILCORLEY]: The television show...
[31:53.880 --> 31:54.980] [EVILCORLEY]: The Prisoner...
[31:54.980 --> 31:56.400] [EVILCORLEY]: That is one of the...
[31:56.400 --> 31:57.520] [EVILCORLEY]: Recurring themes...
[31:57.520 --> 31:57.880] [EVILCORLEY]: It's...
[31:57.880 --> 31:59.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Called the Radetsky March...
[31:59.940 --> 32:00.820] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[32:00.820 --> 32:02.160] [EVILCORLEY]: Is described as...
[32:02.160 --> 32:03.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Village band march...
[32:03.580 --> 32:04.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Into the main square...
[32:04.460 --> 32:05.440] [EVILCORLEY]: The Prisoner being...
[32:05.440 --> 32:06.660] [EVILCORLEY]: A program where...
[32:06.660 --> 32:07.720] [EVILCORLEY]: A man...
[32:07.720 --> 32:09.260] [EVILCORLEY]: A secret agent...
[32:09.260 --> 32:09.940] [EVILCORLEY]: If you will...
[32:09.940 --> 32:11.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Finds himself in...
[32:11.320 --> 32:12.620] [EVILCORLEY]: What can only be described...
[32:12.620 --> 32:13.060] [EVILCORLEY]: As a...
[32:13.900 --> 32:14.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Totalitarian...
[32:14.260 --> 32:16.210] [EVILCORLEY]: I wish I'd come up with another word...
[32:16.210 --> 32:18.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Totalitarian regime...
[32:19.460 --> 32:20.210] [EVILCORLEY]: And...
[32:20.210 --> 32:22.320] [EVILCORLEY]: One in which he is unable to get out...
[32:22.320 --> 32:23.440] [EVILCORLEY]: And one which...
[32:23.980 --> 32:25.520] [EVILCORLEY]: Has complete control...
[32:25.520 --> 32:26.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Over every...
[32:26.500 --> 32:27.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Part...
[32:27.300 --> 32:28.720] [EVILCORLEY]: Of his life...
[32:28.720 --> 32:29.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Except...
[32:29.480 --> 32:30.710] [EVILCORLEY]: One...
[32:31.040 --> 32:32.320] [EVILCORLEY]: His mind...
[32:32.320 --> 32:33.240] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's...
[32:33.240 --> 32:34.270] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the part that...
[32:35.100 --> 32:38.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Hopefully we all will manage to hold on to...
[32:38.100 --> 32:39.270] [EVILCORLEY]: During our lifetimes...
[32:40.980 --> 32:41.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Our number...
[32:41.860 --> 32:43.270] [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400...
[32:43.260 --> 32:44.420] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening...
[32:45.040 --> 32:45.520] [SPEAKER_09]: Hi...
[32:45.520 --> 32:46.580] [SPEAKER_09]: I was wondering if...
[32:46.580 --> 32:48.260] [SPEAKER_09]: You had had any contact with the...
[32:48.980 --> 32:52.060] [SPEAKER_09]: Chinese students who are doing a hunger strike by the United Nations?
[32:52.620 --> 32:53.100] [EVILCORLEY]: No...
[32:53.100 --> 32:53.400] [EVILCORLEY]: And I...
[32:53.400 --> 32:54.900] [EVILCORLEY]: I've meant to go by there...
[32:54.900 --> 32:56.220] [EVILCORLEY]: I haven't had the time to...
[32:57.160 --> 32:58.120] [EVILCORLEY]: To actually...
[32:58.120 --> 32:59.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Walk by and see it...
[32:59.460 --> 33:00.820] [EVILCORLEY]: And talk to the people there...
[33:00.820 --> 33:01.160] [EVILCORLEY]: Now...
[33:01.160 --> 33:01.680] [EVILCORLEY]: They...
[33:01.680 --> 33:02.880] [EVILCORLEY]: They began this...
[33:02.880 --> 33:04.260] [EVILCORLEY]: It was over a week ago...
[33:04.260 --> 33:04.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Wasn't it?
[33:04.580 --> 33:05.220] [SPEAKER_09]: About a week ago...
[33:05.220 --> 33:06.480] [SPEAKER_09]: I believe they're still at it...
[33:06.480 --> 33:07.560] [SPEAKER_09]: I was wondering...
[33:07.560 --> 33:08.460] [EVILCORLEY]: You'll notice...
[33:08.460 --> 33:08.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Excuse me...
[33:08.780 --> 33:11.800] [EVILCORLEY]: You'll notice that there is not very much publicity about that...
[33:11.800 --> 33:12.780] [EVILCORLEY]: In the press...
[33:13.260 --> 33:14.600] [SPEAKER_09]: There have been little snippets...
[33:15.020 --> 33:19.160] [SPEAKER_09]: They're not possibly as charismatic as some of the other things that are happening...
[33:19.160 --> 33:20.520] [SPEAKER_09]: But they're good people...
[33:20.520 --> 33:21.480] [SPEAKER_09]: I was wondering if...
[33:21.480 --> 33:22.840] [SPEAKER_09]: If I can manage to raise them...
[33:22.840 --> 33:26.040] [SPEAKER_09]: Would you want to maybe speak with one of them for maybe five minutes or so?
[33:26.040 --> 33:27.940] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't understand...
[33:27.940 --> 33:28.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Sorry?
[33:28.900 --> 33:29.420] [SPEAKER_09]: If...
[33:29.920 --> 33:31.220] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm fairly close to them...
[33:31.220 --> 33:33.160] [SPEAKER_09]: And they are very hard-working...
[33:33.160 --> 33:35.120] [SPEAKER_09]: But being from mainland China...
[33:35.120 --> 33:38.980] [SPEAKER_09]: They're not necessarily that sophisticated when it comes to going out and getting coverage...
[33:38.980 --> 33:39.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh...
[33:39.380 --> 33:43.960] [SPEAKER_09]: So they pretty much have been sitting waiting for people to come and talk to them...
[33:43.960 --> 33:44.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh...
[33:44.380 --> 33:46.320] [SPEAKER_09]: However, they do have a phone where they are...
[33:46.320 --> 33:48.060] [SPEAKER_09]: And if you'd like to speak with them...
[33:48.060 --> 33:50.860] [SPEAKER_09]: It might turn out to be convenient on both sides...
[33:50.860 --> 33:52.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I'd certainly like to...
[33:52.320 --> 33:56.210] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know if you mean in the very immediate future as in the next few minutes...
[33:56.210 --> 33:59.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Or if you mean sometime this week...
[33:59.060 --> 34:01.040] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, if it can be done...
[34:01.040 --> 34:02.220] [SPEAKER_09]: On the spur of the moment...
[34:02.220 --> 34:03.760] [SPEAKER_09]: Since you have airtime and they are there...
[34:03.760 --> 34:06.960] [SPEAKER_09]: It would be nice if you might want to speak with them briefly this evening...
[34:06.960 --> 34:07.980] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm asking...
[34:07.980 --> 34:10.200] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not trying to force my way into the show...
[34:13.240 --> 34:14.000] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh...
[34:14.000 --> 34:16.080] [EVILCORLEY]: If you're able to get through again...
[34:16.080 --> 34:20.700] [EVILCORLEY]: And you have a Chinese student on the line that is at the United Nations...
[34:20.700 --> 34:22.900] [EVILCORLEY]: I would certainly like to speak to them, certainly...
[34:22.900 --> 34:23.280] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay...
[34:23.280 --> 34:28.140] [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that could probably go for a good part of the rest of the radio station...
[34:28.520 --> 34:30.280] [EVILCORLEY]: During other parts of the week...
[34:30.280 --> 34:31.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Certainly the news department...
[34:31.780 --> 34:36.060] [EVILCORLEY]: It's an ongoing story and one which I hope to see in the newspapers...
[34:36.060 --> 34:40.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Because, you know, people are putting their lives on the line...
[34:40.340 --> 34:41.120] [EVILCORLEY]: And, um...
[34:41.120 --> 34:42.120] [EVILCORLEY]: You really...
[34:42.120 --> 34:43.640] [EVILCORLEY]: You can't know how it feels...
[34:43.640 --> 34:44.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Because, um...
[34:45.160 --> 34:47.040] [EVILCORLEY]: We all come from a different, uh...
[34:47.480 --> 34:47.880] [EVILCORLEY]: Perspective...
[34:47.880 --> 34:49.240] [EVILCORLEY]: And most of us...
[34:49.240 --> 34:49.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Most of us...
[34:49.940 --> 34:50.740] [EVILCORLEY]: This is our land...
[34:50.740 --> 34:52.380] [EVILCORLEY]: This is where we were born...
[34:52.380 --> 34:52.580] [EVILCORLEY]: Right...
[34:52.580 --> 34:53.040] [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh...
[34:53.040 --> 34:55.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Imagine how it feels to be...
[34:55.200 --> 34:55.940] [EVILCORLEY]: In a...
[34:55.940 --> 34:57.200] [EVILCORLEY]: In a foreign place...
[34:57.200 --> 34:59.000] [EVILCORLEY]: And to hear about this going on in your...
[34:59.000 --> 34:59.700] [EVILCORLEY]: In your home...
[34:59.700 --> 35:01.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Or even to have emigrated, uh...
[35:01.200 --> 35:02.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Generations ago...
[35:02.300 --> 35:02.780] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh...
[35:02.780 --> 35:05.760] [EVILCORLEY]: To know that the land that your parents came from is in turmoil...
[35:05.760 --> 35:06.660] [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh...
[35:06.660 --> 35:06.940] [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh...
[35:06.940 --> 35:07.880] [EVILCORLEY]: It's a horrible feeling...
[35:07.880 --> 35:09.540] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure it is from...
[35:09.540 --> 35:11.520] [SPEAKER_09]: The discussions I've had with people...
[35:11.520 --> 35:12.380] [SPEAKER_09]: I will go now...
[35:12.380 --> 35:14.260] [SPEAKER_09]: And maybe I'll be able to get through again with someone...
[35:14.260 --> 35:14.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay...
[35:14.480 --> 35:14.960] [EVILCORLEY]: I wish you luck...
[35:14.960 --> 35:16.740] [EVILCORLEY]: And if you're not able to get through to us...
[35:16.740 --> 35:17.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh...
[35:17.320 --> 35:18.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Keep trying...
[35:18.320 --> 35:19.500] [EVILCORLEY]: But for the most part...
[35:19.500 --> 35:21.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Keep in communication with them...
[35:21.300 --> 35:21.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay...
[35:21.540 --> 35:22.580] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the most important thing...
[35:22.580 --> 35:24.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you...
[35:24.040 --> 35:24.880] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening...
[35:26.390 --> 35:26.740] [SPEAKER_18]: Hi...
[35:26.740 --> 35:28.380] [SPEAKER_18]: Can you wait till I, uh...
[35:28.380 --> 35:28.840] [SPEAKER_18]: Hi...
[35:28.840 --> 35:29.780] [SPEAKER_18]: Can you wait till I, uh...
[35:29.780 --> 35:30.580] [EVILCORLEY]: Turn down the radio...
[35:30.580 --> 35:31.620] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, I can...
[35:31.620 --> 35:32.240] [EVILCORLEY]: Just a minute...
[35:32.240 --> 35:33.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead...
[35:34.760 --> 35:36.880] [EVILCORLEY]: I love hearing myself on delay...
[35:38.440 --> 35:38.840] [SPEAKER_17]: Hi...
[35:38.840 --> 35:40.160] [SPEAKER_17]: I'm enjoying very much your show...
[35:40.160 --> 35:40.520] [SPEAKER_17]: I usually...
[35:40.520 --> 35:41.800] [SPEAKER_17]: I'm asleep at this hour...
[35:41.800 --> 35:42.280] [SPEAKER_17]: But I...
[35:42.280 --> 35:43.060] [SPEAKER_17]: I stayed up...
[35:43.060 --> 35:43.960] [SPEAKER_17]: I enjoyed your comments...
[35:43.960 --> 35:44.780] [EVILCORLEY]: I kept you up, huh?
[35:45.160 --> 35:45.960] [EVILCORLEY]: I beg your pardon...
[35:45.960 --> 35:46.920] [EVILCORLEY]: I kept you awake, huh?
[35:47.140 --> 35:48.500] [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I'm not gonna blame you...
[35:49.100 --> 35:49.500] [SPEAKER_17]: Okay...
[35:49.500 --> 35:50.320] [EVILCORLEY]: So what's on your mind?
[35:50.400 --> 35:51.960] [SPEAKER_17]: Actually, I was reading...
[35:52.440 --> 35:52.840] [SPEAKER_17]: Um...
[35:52.840 --> 35:53.800] [SPEAKER_17]: As a matter of fact...
[35:53.800 --> 35:55.780] [SPEAKER_17]: You made some interesting comments about how...
[35:55.780 --> 35:58.780] [SPEAKER_17]: The news of the Chinese story very properly has, uh...
[36:09.330 --> 36:11.190] [SPEAKER_17]: That, among other things...
[36:11.190 --> 36:12.770] [SPEAKER_17]: That it blanked out was the anniversary...
[36:13.330 --> 36:15.770] [SPEAKER_17]: Of the June 5th, 1967 war...
[36:16.810 --> 36:18.030] [SPEAKER_17]: Where Israel, uh...
[36:19.130 --> 36:21.770] [SPEAKER_17]: Took a whole bunch of territory that she's never given back...
[36:22.510 --> 36:23.690] [SPEAKER_17]: And, uh...
[36:23.690 --> 36:25.750] [SPEAKER_17]: Couldn't help thinking about how...
[36:25.750 --> 36:28.830] [SPEAKER_17]: I don't know if this changes the subject and if you mind, but...
[36:29.830 --> 36:32.110] [SPEAKER_17]: In 1967, I was a Zionist.
[36:32.250 --> 36:34.490] [SPEAKER_17]: And since then, slowly, I've changed my perspective.
[36:34.690 --> 36:35.890] [SPEAKER_17]: In fact, the book I was reading...
[36:36.690 --> 36:41.130] [SPEAKER_17]: The title is The Arab-Israeli Confrontation of June 1967...
[36:41.130 --> 36:42.910] [SPEAKER_17]: An Arab Perspective...
[36:43.350 --> 36:46.630] [SPEAKER_17]: Which I got, as a matter of fact, from my local branch, library.
[36:47.550 --> 36:48.910] [SPEAKER_17]: And it's, uh...
[36:48.910 --> 36:52.950] [SPEAKER_17]: An edited volume where it has different articles on different aspects of it.
[36:52.950 --> 36:55.150] [SPEAKER_17]: And the one I'm just reading now...
[36:56.450 --> 36:57.010] [SPEAKER_17]: Um...
[36:57.010 --> 36:58.090] [SPEAKER_17]: The Prelude to War...
[36:58.650 --> 37:00.090] [SPEAKER_17]: Pointing out that...
[37:00.090 --> 37:01.030] [SPEAKER_17]: Guess what?
[37:01.390 --> 37:02.270] [SPEAKER_17]: The, um...
[37:02.270 --> 37:05.130] [SPEAKER_17]: The Israelis were not on the defensive in June 1967.
[37:05.130 --> 37:07.190] [SPEAKER_17]: They were very much on the offensive.
[37:07.510 --> 37:10.090] [SPEAKER_17]: And there was no question about Israeli security.
[37:11.090 --> 37:11.650] [SPEAKER_17]: Um...
[37:11.650 --> 37:15.230] [SPEAKER_17]: They knew, and the Americans knew, and the Israeli knew...
[37:15.230 --> 37:15.950] [SPEAKER_17]: That they could, uh...
[37:16.590 --> 37:18.830] [SPEAKER_17]: Win that war, and, um...
[37:18.830 --> 37:22.190] [SPEAKER_17]: That the Egyptians and the Syrians were no match militarily for them.
[37:22.190 --> 37:25.710] [SPEAKER_17]: And they wanted, they wanted the land which they later...
[37:25.710 --> 37:27.810] [SPEAKER_17]: Which they took in the course of that war, and they took it.
[37:28.310 --> 37:29.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I think you, uh...
[37:29.790 --> 37:33.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Bring up an interesting point in that if you look at, um...
[37:33.290 --> 37:34.250] [EVILCORLEY]: At the, um...
[37:34.250 --> 37:37.050] [EVILCORLEY]: The courageous Chinese youth who, um...
[37:37.050 --> 37:40.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Battled the tanks and the soldiers with what they had, namely sticks and stones.
[37:41.850 --> 37:42.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh...
[37:42.210 --> 37:43.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Compare that to the way, uh...
[37:43.750 --> 37:49.890] [EVILCORLEY]: The Palestinian youth are portrayed throwing their sticks and stones at, at the soldiers that are invading their land.
[37:50.690 --> 37:51.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh...
[37:51.050 --> 37:53.630] [EVILCORLEY]: It's a, it's a different way of looking at, uh...
[37:53.630 --> 37:54.510] [EVILCORLEY]: At what...
[37:54.510 --> 37:56.610] [EVILCORLEY]: As a, as a parallel situation, in my view.
[37:57.150 --> 37:58.050] [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, it's very interesting.
[37:58.490 --> 37:59.490] [SPEAKER_17]: One, one last thing.
[37:59.610 --> 38:00.570] [SPEAKER_17]: Back on the Chinese thing.
[38:00.670 --> 38:03.450] [SPEAKER_17]: There's a very interesting article in today's times.
[38:03.450 --> 38:06.970] [SPEAKER_17]: What, what they did was they reprinted an eyewitness account.
[38:06.970 --> 38:11.050] [SPEAKER_17]: If people didn't get a chance to see that, it's a very powerful, very...
[38:11.050 --> 38:14.830] [SPEAKER_17]: In less than a thousand words, you get a picture of what actually happened.
[38:15.110 --> 38:18.870] [SPEAKER_17]: So, if people, uh, would like to see that, they can review today's times.
[38:18.870 --> 38:20.990] [EVILCORLEY]: That was, uh, the account by a student there?
[38:21.050 --> 38:23.050] [EVILCORLEY]: I believe it was from the San Francisco Examiner?
[38:23.790 --> 38:24.190] [SPEAKER_17]: Um...
[38:24.190 --> 38:25.070] [SPEAKER_17]: I'm trying to remember now.
[38:25.210 --> 38:28.490] [SPEAKER_17]: 40,000 or 50,000 students who remained, even after they got word.
[38:28.590 --> 38:32.570] [SPEAKER_17]: Apparently, they got word through a payphone in the area that the troops were coming.
[38:32.950 --> 38:33.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[38:33.550 --> 38:36.230] [SPEAKER_17]: And they were told to leave, and they decided not to leave.
[38:36.390 --> 38:39.070] [SPEAKER_17]: And, um, I don't know if it was a few hours later.
[38:39.290 --> 38:42.530] [SPEAKER_17]: Um, they tried to leave, at which point, of course, it was too late.
[38:43.130 --> 38:43.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[38:43.490 --> 38:47.470] [SPEAKER_17]: And it is a very chilling account of the details of what happened.
[38:47.730 --> 38:48.590] [SPEAKER_17]: It's, uh...
[38:48.590 --> 38:50.390] [SPEAKER_17]: Well, it was very good of the times to reprint it.
[38:50.450 --> 38:51.510] [SPEAKER_17]: It wasn't even their story.
[38:51.890 --> 38:52.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Um...
[38:52.250 --> 38:54.170] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, it was the Examiner in San Francisco, I believe.
[38:54.310 --> 38:54.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Right, right.
[38:54.590 --> 38:56.090] [EVILCORLEY]: Let me ask you one question before you go, sir.
[38:56.230 --> 39:01.550] [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think that, uh, our government, uh, President Bush, you think he's doing enough about the situation?
[39:01.550 --> 39:02.550] [SPEAKER_17]: You mean in China?
[39:02.790 --> 39:03.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[39:03.230 --> 39:05.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Is there more that the government can do?
[39:06.210 --> 39:06.830] [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, dear.
[39:07.130 --> 39:10.130] [SPEAKER_17]: Um, I'm not an expert on that, but, um, it's very clear...
[39:10.130 --> 39:10.750] [EVILCORLEY]: You don't have to be.
[39:11.830 --> 39:16.990] [SPEAKER_17]: ...that the CIA, you know, is involved in China, that we have all kinds of...
[39:16.990 --> 39:23.790] [SPEAKER_17]: Well, for example, um, the United States and China have been arming, um...
[39:23.790 --> 39:25.350] [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, dear, the Cambodian group.
[39:25.610 --> 39:27.210] [SPEAKER_17]: Those bad guys in Cambodia.
[39:27.830 --> 39:28.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Khmer Rouge.
[39:28.690 --> 39:29.270] [SPEAKER_17]: Khmer Rouge.
[39:29.510 --> 39:29.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[39:29.750 --> 39:38.610] [SPEAKER_17]: They've been arming these Khmer Rouge all these years, and now the CIA has been working with the Chinese because, uh, the Americans still hate the Vietnamese.
[39:39.550 --> 39:49.650] [SPEAKER_17]: So we have, we have all these links with China, and just because they've killed 7,000 of their own students, um, is no reason for Bush and the CIA to, you know, turn their backs on them.
[39:49.650 --> 39:56.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, there's, there's another word, too, and, uh, this word always, uh, makes people throw up their hands in despair, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
[39:56.990 --> 39:57.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Prophets.
[39:57.590 --> 39:59.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Prophets is, uh, is the word.
[40:00.290 --> 40:00.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Your point.
[40:00.930 --> 40:05.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, a lot of profits, uh, can be made in China if we were to, uh...
[40:05.350 --> 40:05.810] [SPEAKER_17]: Money, money.
[40:05.910 --> 40:06.670] [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, you're talking about money.
[40:06.790 --> 40:06.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[40:07.090 --> 40:09.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Not, not, not false profits or things like that, no.
[40:09.690 --> 40:17.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, if we were to close the door in China now and, uh, say, to hell with you guys, you know, you're gonna massacre people, you're not gonna play in our ballpark, uh...
[40:17.950 --> 40:26.110] [EVILCORLEY]: We would, we would lose a lot of money, we would lose a lot of potential, uh, for, for sending technology and, uh, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken and all that kind of thing.
[40:26.250 --> 40:31.090] [SPEAKER_17]: You know, you're stressing the money, um, which seems, I don't know if you're a socialist, a lot of socialists stress that.
[40:31.390 --> 40:33.090] [SPEAKER_17]: To me, it's more ideology.
[40:33.590 --> 40:42.050] [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, we could make, for example, a lot more money if we, um, raised the per capita income of the people of Nicaragua.
[40:42.270 --> 40:49.330] [SPEAKER_17]: You know, our capitalists could go down there and, and turn that into an economic zone, but, you know, ideology wins out.
[40:49.610 --> 40:56.990] [SPEAKER_17]: And so, all over the world, so I don't really think it's profits, I think it's, uh, or money, I think it's ideology, the name of the game.
[40:57.210 --> 41:01.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I, I would agree with that, too, but I, I think profits play a part, certainly.
[41:01.910 --> 41:02.270] [SPEAKER_17]: Perhaps.
[41:03.070 --> 41:03.930] [SPEAKER_17]: Nice talking to you.
[41:03.930 --> 41:04.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[41:04.970 --> 41:05.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks.
[41:06.290 --> 41:06.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[41:09.880 --> 41:11.500] [EVILCORLEY]: As they fumble for the phone, are you there?
[41:11.680 --> 41:12.460] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yes, I am.
[41:12.600 --> 41:13.000] [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[41:13.000 --> 41:18.760] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I was just listening, um, and I just, uh, maybe it's a little far-fetched, I'm not sure.
[41:19.000 --> 41:19.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[41:19.400 --> 41:24.400] [SPEAKER_08]: But I was listening to the article that you were reading, the, uh, Beijing Times or whatever it was.
[41:24.560 --> 41:25.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Beijing Review, yeah.
[41:25.740 --> 41:25.960] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[41:27.380 --> 41:37.060] [SPEAKER_08]: And, I was thinking that, you know, the article that you were reading sounded very hopeful to a lot of Chinese people.
[41:37.680 --> 41:38.120] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[41:38.280 --> 41:39.260] [EVILCORLEY]: I, I got that, too.
[41:39.400 --> 41:40.320] [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, uh...
[41:40.320 --> 41:49.020] [SPEAKER_08]: What I was thinking, it was like, in a way, that those articles were baiting the Chinese people to go to Beijing Square.
[41:50.180 --> 41:53.040] [SPEAKER_08]: If you understand where I'm coming from, really.
[41:53.220 --> 41:59.000] [EVILCORLEY]: You mean, uh, the article was trying to get people to go to Beijing, the Tiananmen Square, so they would be massacred?
[41:59.280 --> 42:02.240] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, it's like that, you know, we've got to find out who the dissidents are.
[42:02.740 --> 42:07.120] [SPEAKER_08]: So we'll play up the, uh, positive angles of the demonstrations and everything.
[42:07.440 --> 42:13.820] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, but the way it was presented, I mean, they had demonstrators carrying signs saying, uh, we support communism.
[42:14.060 --> 42:18.640] [EVILCORLEY]: Why would, why would the authorities want to get people who support communism to be demonstrators?
[42:19.040 --> 42:20.380] [SPEAKER_08]: I, I don't know.
[42:20.540 --> 42:25.520] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just that it, for some reason, it kind of struck me in that vein.
[42:25.800 --> 42:26.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[42:26.220 --> 42:31.460] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know why, but that was just the way it felt to me while you were reading it.
[42:31.460 --> 42:32.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[42:32.340 --> 42:43.620] [SPEAKER_08]: That, you know, the, uh, the magazine was, you know, looking upon the students and the demonstrators and the protesters as a very positive note.
[42:43.920 --> 42:52.580] [SPEAKER_08]: And perhaps there were other people who were reading it who had a gripe, you might say, to go there and to demonstrate.
[42:52.580 --> 42:53.120] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[42:53.220 --> 42:58.860] [SPEAKER_08]: It was just the way I felt when, and just the way I thought you were reading it.
[42:59.040 --> 42:59.160] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[42:59.160 --> 43:01.140] [SPEAKER_08]: That's really about all I have to say about that.
[43:01.240 --> 43:02.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Let me just ask you one more question.
[43:02.600 --> 43:05.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, did you follow the events before they exploded?
[43:05.680 --> 43:06.460] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, I did.
[43:06.660 --> 43:08.540] [EVILCORLEY]: And did you expect anything like this to happen?
[43:09.540 --> 43:10.960] [SPEAKER_08]: No, I didn't.
[43:11.420 --> 43:25.040] [SPEAKER_08]: I, I was, I was kind of, I was really hoping that the, uh, Chinese government or the Chinese people would show the West a couple of things.
[43:26.920 --> 43:29.260] [SPEAKER_08]: But, um, they didn't.
[43:29.480 --> 43:35.260] [SPEAKER_08]: They just, like, you know, it's, it's like they just, it was just barbarism.
[43:36.460 --> 43:37.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[43:37.180 --> 43:41.120] [SPEAKER_08]: And I, I was really depressed for a while after that.
[43:41.240 --> 43:45.740] [SPEAKER_08]: I just thought, hey, maybe something good would come out of it.
[43:46.400 --> 43:51.120] [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe there would be an opening up, you know, or at least a few cracks in the old regime.
[43:52.520 --> 43:57.560] [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, I was, I was really upset when all those people died.
[43:58.680 --> 44:03.380] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, you know, I was hoping for something better.
[44:04.920 --> 44:07.460] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, it didn't happen.
[44:07.720 --> 44:17.440] [SPEAKER_08]: I think what really bothers me, the leaders are like in their eighties or whatever, and here they are killing 17-, 18-year-old kids.
[44:18.140 --> 44:20.300] [EVILCORLEY]: That's, uh, that's really what got me.
[44:20.300 --> 44:30.840] [EVILCORLEY]: I was, uh, the copy of Beijing Review I don't have with me, which is the most recent one that I, that I've gotten, um, lists the many leaders and their ages.
[44:31.280 --> 44:31.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[44:31.660 --> 44:37.760] [EVILCORLEY]: And my God, there's, there's a dozen leaders that are 80, 85.
[44:38.400 --> 44:38.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[44:38.460 --> 44:40.060] [EVILCORLEY]: That make Reagan look like a kid.
[44:40.420 --> 44:40.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[44:40.540 --> 44:40.560] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[44:41.300 --> 44:51.080] [EVILCORLEY]: And who in the world are these people, these, these, these octogenarians to tell teenagers what is, what is right and what they should be doing?
[44:51.200 --> 44:53.220] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, it's not their country anymore.
[44:53.220 --> 44:57.140] [EVILCORLEY]: They shouldn't be controlling every aspect of, of, of everyone's lives.
[44:57.340 --> 44:58.760] [EVILCORLEY]: Let somebody else do it for a change.
[44:59.000 --> 45:06.060] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I was, I was thinking, I mean, these guys should be taken out of office and that's that.
[45:06.460 --> 45:13.840] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I mean, I just couldn't, I was thinking to myself, my God, these guys are in their eighties and they're killing all these kids.
[45:13.840 --> 45:14.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[45:14.480 --> 45:19.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I mean, I have nothing against senior citizens or, or people in their eighties or anything like that.
[45:19.320 --> 45:31.500] [EVILCORLEY]: But I think when you have a country that, uh, is obviously dominated by, by so many people who are, who are up there with their conservative and, uh, to us it would be leftist, but to them it's conservative ideology.
[45:32.460 --> 45:37.760] [EVILCORLEY]: Obviously they're way out of touch with, uh, with a lot of people that haven't been through what they've been through.
[45:37.760 --> 45:41.840] [EVILCORLEY]: And you have to give the other folks a chance to come to the same conclusions.
[45:41.900 --> 45:44.040] [EVILCORLEY]: You can't just force your conclusions on other people.
[45:44.060 --> 45:47.320] [SPEAKER_08]: That was, that was my thoughts exactly when I was, when this happened.
[45:48.120 --> 45:52.460] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I was, I heard somebody say, I think it was on WBAI, I'm not sure.
[45:53.320 --> 46:01.980] [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, you know, the newspapers in this country were calling all the people that had died heroes and stuff like that.
[46:03.140 --> 46:12.680] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, I wondered how the newspapers would respond if so many students in this country were killed.
[46:13.940 --> 46:16.360] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it was just something that I heard.
[46:16.540 --> 46:20.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I mean, if the number was the same, I would, I would not know how they would respond.
[46:21.160 --> 46:26.320] [EVILCORLEY]: But, um, and I, I don't remember how, uh, how the papers responded when Kent State occurred.
[46:26.680 --> 46:29.760] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, which for all intents and purposes is the same thing.
[46:29.760 --> 46:33.300] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, because there was, there was a lot of things.
[46:33.440 --> 46:43.440] [SPEAKER_08]: I remember Kent State, you know, and I think, uh, Spiro or Ray, or, um, Nixon were calling them bums and everything else.
[46:44.140 --> 46:55.800] [SPEAKER_08]: And I kind of think what the climate is in this country now, that if some students were fired upon how the newspapers and the media would react.
[46:56.640 --> 47:03.600] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, uh, it's, it's, it's just mind-boggling of what, what happened in China.
[47:03.860 --> 47:04.480] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, it's...
[47:04.480 --> 47:06.000] [EVILCORLEY]: That's, that's it exactly.
[47:06.180 --> 47:07.540] [EVILCORLEY]: You couldn't phrase it better.
[47:07.760 --> 47:08.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Mind-boggling.
[47:08.760 --> 47:19.140] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, uh, anyone that just turns to the sports pages after, after reading about this without, uh, sitting in stunned silence for a few minutes is missing a great deal of, of, of something that is human.
[47:19.480 --> 47:19.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[47:19.900 --> 47:20.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling, sir.
[47:20.880 --> 47:21.220] [EVILCORLEY]: Take care.
[47:21.220 --> 47:24.720] [EVILCORLEY]: Our number is, uh, 279-3400.
[47:25.700 --> 47:28.480] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, the program is Unstuck in Time.
[47:28.740 --> 47:32.080] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Margot Adler.
[47:32.260 --> 47:36.300] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, we'll go right back to the phone calls right after this.
[50:13.580 --> 50:18.020] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, for those that are not familiar, those were The Clash.
[50:18.700 --> 50:23.400] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, no, that was, uh, not just a lot of noise.
[50:23.400 --> 50:25.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Those were actually words in there.
[50:25.620 --> 50:29.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Words like, uh, who got caught in their unawares?
[50:29.080 --> 50:33.480] [EVILCORLEY]: As the new party army came marching right over our heads.
[50:35.400 --> 50:38.400] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, you know, the clash, they-they said a lot.
[50:38.560 --> 50:43.440] [EVILCORLEY]: And a lot of it you couldn't really understand underneath the music, but, uh, the words were in there.
[50:43.580 --> 50:47.240] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, a lot of what they had to say was-was right on the nose.
[50:47.500 --> 50:53.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, it's a song I wish, uh, wish I had with me tonight, uh, off, uh, what really was their last album.
[50:54.040 --> 50:58.480] [EVILCORLEY]: The album before half the band left, uh, called Combat Rock.
[50:58.480 --> 50:59.920] [EVILCORLEY]: A song called Know Your Rights.
[51:00.400 --> 51:03.700] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, one particular part of that song.
[51:04.100 --> 51:07.300] [EVILCORLEY]: You have the right to free speech.
[51:08.270 --> 51:13.340] [EVILCORLEY]: As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it.
[51:13.940 --> 51:16.960] [EVILCORLEY]: Our number is 279-3400.
[51:17.060 --> 51:17.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[51:18.230 --> 51:18.800] [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[51:19.910 --> 51:25.120] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I just want to comment that, uh, about the Chinese situation.
[51:25.360 --> 51:25.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[51:25.730 --> 51:37.690] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it seems to me that, uh, in this whole world that, uh, I would-I just wish that the Chinese communists would take their own advice and not talk to people.
[51:38.700 --> 51:40.200] [EVILCORLEY]: And what would that solve?
[51:41.320 --> 51:42.600] [SPEAKER_07]: What would that solve?
[51:42.730 --> 51:44.820] [SPEAKER_07]: It would solve the hypocrisy factor.
[51:46.060 --> 51:50.360] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, you-you're advocating China becoming isolationist again?
[51:51.360 --> 51:51.860] [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[51:52.540 --> 51:54.380] [EVILCORLEY]: All right, then I don't understand what you're saying.
[51:54.460 --> 51:54.650] [SPEAKER_07]: All right, then I don't understand what you're saying.
[51:54.650 --> 52:00.080] [SPEAKER_07]: For, uh, the Chinese to pursue their own destiny, like, uh, all countries in the world.
[52:00.600 --> 52:01.520] [SPEAKER_07]: All people.
[52:02.120 --> 52:02.620] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[52:03.580 --> 52:06.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Um, I-can you be more specific?
[52:06.320 --> 52:08.730] [EVILCORLEY]: What-what exactly are you saying for the present time?
[52:08.730 --> 52:18.300] [SPEAKER_07]: I am saying that, uh, uh, um, you should stop talking at people and take your own advice.
[52:18.940 --> 52:30.540] [SPEAKER_07]: And, for example, uh, the army is in-here in Samaria to really to, uh, protect, uh, TLO from the settlers.
[52:32.280 --> 52:37.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Not, uh, they're not really there to, uh, uh, kill the Easter bunnies.
[52:38.120 --> 52:40.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, now- There's more than the PLO living there, first of all.
[52:41.150 --> 52:45.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, I mean, you know, little babies and kids, they're not necessarily the PLO.
[52:45.560 --> 52:46.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Some of them might be, but, uh...
[52:46.940 --> 52:52.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, if you really care about them, uh, uh, why don't you stop patronizing them?
[52:52.880 --> 52:54.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Because they're not Easter bunnies.
[52:56.020 --> 52:56.500] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[52:56.860 --> 52:58.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, thanks for calling, sir.
[52:58.980 --> 53:02.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Every so often you come across a life form that, uh, hasn't been charted yet.
[53:03.080 --> 53:03.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[53:06.000 --> 53:06.480] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[53:06.730 --> 53:07.520] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, can I help you?
[53:08.040 --> 53:23.360] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, um, I have to, uh, I know the topic is China, but I really have to object to the kind of facile comparison that's being made between, uh, peaceful demonstrators in China and rock-flowing, uh, Palestinians.
[53:23.900 --> 53:28.580] [SPEAKER_05]: It's, uh, throwing a rock is simply not a peaceful act.
[53:29.100 --> 53:34.360] [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, people can get killed or brain damaged or crippled by a thrown stone.
[53:34.770 --> 53:36.380] [EVILCORLEY]: I, I, excuse me, one second.
[53:36.460 --> 53:41.200] [EVILCORLEY]: I agree with you that it's not a peaceful act, but, uh, neither is occupation of a village.
[53:41.380 --> 53:42.650] [EVILCORLEY]: That's not a peaceful act either.
[53:43.380 --> 53:44.340] [EVILCORLEY]: You see what I'm saying?
[53:45.080 --> 53:48.580] [EVILCORLEY]: They're, they're fighting back in whatever way they know how.
[53:48.580 --> 53:55.020] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, the Chinese students were not throwing stones at the soldiers before the soldiers started moving in on them.
[53:55.020 --> 54:04.320] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was after the soldiers started attacking that the Chinese students, yes, they got violent too, in, in, uh, a pathetic way by throwing stones.
[54:04.460 --> 54:05.420] [EVILCORLEY]: It was the only thing they could do.
[54:05.420 --> 54:11.800] [SPEAKER_05]: The, uh, the, the violent act was, uh, committed first by the Chinese troops.
[54:12.230 --> 54:22.940] [SPEAKER_05]: The, the, the, as far as the occupation, the, the, and the other comment being that the, uh, Israelis were the aggressors in the 1967 war.
[54:23.620 --> 54:33.730] [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, the Arabs who, uh, had maintained a state of war for all those years, uh, never lifted it.
[54:33.860 --> 54:37.820] [SPEAKER_05]: And to the contrary, were trying to enforce a blockade at the time the war started.
[54:37.820 --> 54:56.940] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I suppose the, uh, typical, uh, pacifist WBAI mentality is, well, you know, let, let, let the act become so aggressive that there'd be a really, uh, brutal, long drawn out war that would have been maybe a fair fight militarily, but I don't think,
[54:57.000 --> 54:58.580] [SPEAKER_05]: uh, Israel really had that option.
[54:58.580 --> 55:09.800] [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, as a result, the Golan Heights, uh, were occupied because those were strategic and the border, uh, became the Jordan River because that was a more defensible border.
[55:10.120 --> 55:21.700] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I agree the Palestinian problem is a serious one, but I'm, I'm getting really tired of this one-sided, uh, propaganda constantly on this station if there's only one side of the issue.
[55:21.920 --> 55:22.120] [SPEAKER_05]: There isn't.
[55:22.240 --> 55:25.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, what, what I say on this station comes from me.
[55:25.230 --> 55:25.540] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm not really...
[55:25.540 --> 55:26.690] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm not just talking about you.
[55:26.690 --> 55:29.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Right, but, uh, that's, that's the way it is with other people too.
[55:29.380 --> 55:31.700] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, we don't have a, a doctrine here at the radio station.
[55:31.880 --> 55:35.900] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, people are free to say, uh, what is on their mind and what they think.
[55:35.980 --> 55:41.020] [EVILCORLEY]: And, and a lot of times what people think goes against what everybody else says.
[55:41.200 --> 55:42.840] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's, you know, that's the way it should be.
[55:43.270 --> 55:44.940] [SPEAKER_05]: I agree that's the way it should be.
[55:45.080 --> 55:53.040] [SPEAKER_05]: But from WBAI, rather than hearing a kind of balanced approach, you just hear the same anti-Israel propaganda.
[55:53.040 --> 56:01.050] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't hear news or, uh, uh, intelligent analysis of the situation from a balanced perspective.
[56:01.860 --> 56:03.230] [SPEAKER_05]: It's simply mouthing the same...
[56:03.230 --> 56:04.650] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm not blaming you personally.
[56:04.650 --> 56:06.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, sir, do you, do you think that you hear...
[56:06.600 --> 56:10.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Not in a, what I would call a, mainly a program of propaganda, but...
[56:10.770 --> 56:12.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Let me just ask you one question, though.
[56:12.040 --> 56:15.480] [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think that the news you hear on the networks is, is fair and balanced?
[56:16.190 --> 56:20.800] [SPEAKER_05]: No, but why, why is that constantly the response to this criticism?
[56:21.300 --> 56:21.480] [SPEAKER_05]: The...
[56:21.480 --> 56:28.480] [SPEAKER_05]: You're telling me because the networks are biased, that WBAI should serve as a counterweight and just present propaganda...
[56:29.060 --> 56:30.650] [EVILCORLEY]: No, but what I'm saying is news is...
[56:30.650 --> 56:35.480] [SPEAKER_05]: And just be reactive to whatever bias the networks produce.
[56:35.480 --> 56:44.000] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you have to produce, uh, this high-pitched, frenzied propaganda, because that's the only way you're going to counteract it.
[56:44.000 --> 56:46.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, sir, first of all, it's, it's an opinion.
[56:46.880 --> 56:48.650] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't refer to opinions as propaganda.
[56:48.920 --> 57:00.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Second of all, uh, I'm, the reason I bring up, uh, network news and, and the fact that they're not balanced as well, I wonder, do you call the networks and say, your news is not balanced?
[57:00.940 --> 57:03.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I, I think no news is balanced.
[57:03.360 --> 57:04.900] [EVILCORLEY]: No news can be balanced, you see.
[57:05.020 --> 57:09.740] [EVILCORLEY]: It's, it's inherent in the way that news is reported that it cannot be 100% fair.
[57:10.040 --> 57:25.280] [EVILCORLEY]: There's always going to be inequity someplace, and, uh, to just say that WBAI is, is unbalanced is not fair, because every station, whether they ignore some things, or, or, they, they just cover certain kinds of stories, or put a slant on the stories,
[57:25.500 --> 57:28.040] [EVILCORLEY]: they're all biased to some degree in some way.
[57:28.300 --> 57:30.040] [EVILCORLEY]: And most of them are, are biased in a different way.
[57:30.040 --> 57:35.200] [SPEAKER_05]: Look, I credit some of the network news programs with at least trying to be objective.
[57:35.480 --> 57:46.740] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Channel 13, for example, I think NPR, uh, all things considered, uh, try very hard to be objective and come very close on a lot of issues.
[57:46.920 --> 58:00.820] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think Sally O'Brien and, uh, uh, Valerie Van Isler and Robert Knight even make an attempt to try to approach the situation analytically or from a balanced perspective.
[58:00.820 --> 58:05.300] [SPEAKER_05]: It's almost as if they have some personal anti-Israeli agenda.
[58:05.460 --> 58:26.020] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm sorry I have to say it, but I think there's an anti, uh, you know, there's some anti-Jewishness behind it too, because it's so much, uh, the kind of, uh, criticism you, you, you hear from, from people who were anti-Jewish, but of course that's not a fashionable sentiment on VAI.
[58:26.230 --> 58:29.190] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's, it's, it's put behind this facade.
[58:29.420 --> 58:35.160] [SPEAKER_05]: For example, Robert Knight had this, uh, uh, no, I'm sorry, it wasn't Robert Knight.
[58:35.160 --> 58:41.240] [SPEAKER_05]: It was another program where they were talking about, uh, about feminism in the Arab world.
[58:41.340 --> 58:58.660] [SPEAKER_05]: And of course it's practically non-existent, but they were trying so hard to justify the Arab, this was on VAI, the, the Arab culture, the Arab, uh, point of view that somehow they tortured the situation to seeming that within their own spheres of activity,
[58:58.820 --> 59:00.000] [SPEAKER_05]: Arab women were equal.
[59:00.320 --> 59:11.700] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's, it was such an egregious example, uh, of the kind of ideological, uh, dancing around issues that you guys do there, that's, that I find infuriating.
[59:11.730 --> 59:24.020] [SPEAKER_05]: The other difference with the networks, by the way, is that the networks don't ask me for money because they're the one true voice of, of, of the truth and facts and, uh, objectivity.
[59:25.480 --> 59:25.770] [SPEAKER_05]: If you...
[59:25.770 --> 59:27.440] [SPEAKER_05]: I agree, they have corporate sponsors.
[59:28.120 --> 59:28.400] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[59:28.400 --> 59:34.460] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think, uh, National Public Radio was a far better, handled the news far better than either you or them.
[59:34.580 --> 59:38.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, okay, and there's a reason for that because they do have a lot more funds.
[59:38.190 --> 59:53.560] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, uh, if, if you hear somebody going on our radio station saying that, uh, we are the voice of objectivity and what you hear from our radio station is the truth, I don't think that person is, is representing this radio station because this, uh, we don't come off as being the voice of truth.
[59:53.880 --> 59:55.770] [EVILCORLEY]: At least I haven't seen that around here.
[59:56.460 --> 01:00:00.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Um, we, um, we offer an alternative, an alternative view.
[01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:04.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, sometimes it's not a popular view.
[01:00:04.650 --> 01:00:19.080] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think it's fair to, uh, to every time someone says something against, uh, Israeli policy or even against, uh, Jewish policy, which is not the same thing, uh, to, to categorize people as, as anti-Semitic.
[01:00:19.080 --> 01:00:22.400] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think that's fair, but this is not the subject matter of this program.
[01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:23.690] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm going to move on to another call.
[01:00:24.270 --> 01:00:25.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, we are talking about China.
[01:00:26.080 --> 01:00:27.600] [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to try to continue to talk about China.
[01:00:27.730 --> 01:00:30.000] [EVILCORLEY]: The number is two, seven, nine, three, 400.
[01:00:30.560 --> 01:00:33.620] [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, 12 minutes to, I'm sorry, 13 minutes to one o'clock.
[01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:35.420] [EVILCORLEY]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[01:00:35.860 --> 01:00:41.780] [EVILCORLEY]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Margo Adler on this, uh, Monday evening.
[01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:43.740] [EVILCORLEY]: And again, the number two, seven, nine, three, 400.
[01:00:43.740 --> 01:00:44.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[01:00:45.270 --> 01:00:46.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Or good morning, actually.
[01:00:47.520 --> 01:00:48.420] [EVILCORLEY]: Is anybody there?
[01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:50.460] [EVILCORLEY]: We'll go on to another call.
[01:00:50.700 --> 01:00:51.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[01:00:51.820 --> 01:00:52.320] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, Emmanuel?
[01:00:52.580 --> 01:00:52.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[01:00:53.120 --> 01:00:54.740] [SPEAKER_09]: Hi, uh, just one second.
[01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:55.730] [SPEAKER_09]: Let me lower my radio, please.
[01:00:55.800 --> 01:00:56.120] [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:00:57.380 --> 01:00:58.960] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know why they keep it up so high anyway.
[01:00:59.480 --> 01:00:59.840] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:01:00.160 --> 01:01:01.780] [SPEAKER_09]: No, it's just that I can listen this way.
[01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:05.000] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, I have a few comments I'd like to make.
[01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:10.420] [SPEAKER_09]: One, uh, all basically dealing with what's going on in China.
[01:01:10.860 --> 01:01:22.010] [SPEAKER_09]: The, the media perception that China's very criminal for killing their labor leaders and students that are fundamental in this revolution.
[01:01:23.270 --> 01:01:27.240] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, this is the same thing that goes on in El Salvador and they're portrayed as heroes.
[01:01:29.660 --> 01:01:30.060] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:33.100] [SPEAKER_09]: And it gives me a lot.
[01:01:33.200 --> 01:01:37.040] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, like, the perception that, you know, the Chinese government is criminal.
[01:01:37.180 --> 01:01:37.940] [SPEAKER_09]: Of course they are.
[01:01:38.040 --> 01:01:40.000] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, for killing labor leaders and students.
[01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:44.860] [SPEAKER_09]: But, you know, the same, the same thing goes on in El Salvador and, you know...
[01:01:44.860 --> 01:01:49.900] [EVILCORLEY]: The same thing goes on in, in many, many countries and has gone on unnoticed in many countries in the world.
[01:01:49.900 --> 01:01:53.020] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'm just saying that they're praised as heroes.
[01:01:53.300 --> 01:01:55.520] [SPEAKER_09]: They're like the founding fathers, Reagan said, you know?
[01:01:56.160 --> 01:01:57.480] [SPEAKER_09]: The El Salvador people.
[01:01:57.760 --> 01:01:57.980] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[01:01:58.060 --> 01:01:59.220] [EVILCORLEY]: I think, uh...
[01:01:59.220 --> 01:02:00.180] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, let me ask you.
[01:02:00.240 --> 01:02:02.540] [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think would, would balance the situation?
[01:02:02.780 --> 01:02:07.560] [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think would make us see El Salvador in the same way as we see China when atrocities occur?
[01:02:10.120 --> 01:02:11.180] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm, I'm, I'm sorry.
[01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:14.160] [SPEAKER_09]: I, I, I was looking, I, I had to write things down because...
[01:02:14.160 --> 01:02:14.780] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm paying any attention.
[01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:15.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:02:15.140 --> 01:02:17.060] [EVILCORLEY]: I get nervous when I talk on the radio and sometimes I forget.
[01:02:17.160 --> 01:02:17.880] [EVILCORLEY]: Would you just say something?
[01:02:17.900 --> 01:02:18.260] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry.
[01:02:18.260 --> 01:02:18.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Sure.
[01:02:18.800 --> 01:02:24.800] [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think would make the situation, uh, seem a bit more balanced to people?
[01:02:24.980 --> 01:02:33.160] [EVILCORLEY]: How do you think they could look at, at El Salvador, see atrocities and put it in the same perspective as, as us looking at China and seeing atrocities?
[01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:39.800] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I, I think fundamentally the fact that, you know, we're a capitalist society and newspapers are businesses.
[01:02:40.080 --> 01:02:46.140] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, the way they report news is going to be with a capitalist, capitalist land, their business, you know?
[01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:47.140] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:52.020] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I think, I think you just touched upon a very important point that I think we could have used, uh, for the last caller.
[01:02:52.560 --> 01:02:57.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, you have to be uneasy with any news organization that's a business.
[01:02:57.880 --> 01:02:59.200] [EVILCORLEY]: And they all are, basically.
[01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:01.500] [EVILCORLEY]: They all, I mean, they are in the business of making money.
[01:03:01.620 --> 01:03:05.920] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, whether that reflects in their programming, it's, it's, it's different with every organization, obviously.
[01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:12.240] [EVILCORLEY]: I have to be very, very uncomfortable with the fact that, that NBC is owned by General Electric.
[01:03:12.440 --> 01:03:14.160] [EVILCORLEY]: That just doesn't sit well with me.
[01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:14.620] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:03:14.680 --> 01:03:21.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, here, here at Pacifica, here at WBAI, nobody, nobody can tell us what to do.
[01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:24.760] [EVILCORLEY]: Nobody can, can tell us what viewpoint is, is correct.
[01:03:25.160 --> 01:03:38.780] [EVILCORLEY]: The, the United States government, the, uh, TAS News Agency, uh, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, uh, General Electric, Nabisco, Exxon, nobody, nobody can tell us what not to say.
[01:03:38.780 --> 01:03:40.220] [EVILCORLEY]: And that, that is the difference.
[01:03:40.420 --> 01:03:52.440] [EVILCORLEY]: If you had every network playing along the same rules as, as Pacifica, every radio station playing along the same rules as WBAI, then you'd have a lot more interesting things going on.
[01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:52.940] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:03:52.940 --> 01:03:56.060] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, that would, that would be democracy in action, you know?
[01:03:56.140 --> 01:03:59.720] [SPEAKER_09]: That, that, that's, I don't know, pie in the sky, it seems like today.
[01:03:59.960 --> 01:04:00.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Seems like, yeah.
[01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:01.000] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:04:01.160 --> 01:04:03.160] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, just a couple other things.
[01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:03.760] [EVILCORLEY]: Quickly.
[01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:06.880] [EVILCORLEY]: You made an analogy between Kent State and Beijing.
[01:04:07.620 --> 01:04:13.640] [SPEAKER_09]: And the, the, the difference I find there is that, uh, Kent State wasn't Washington, D.C.
[01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:15.560] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, it's not the capital of the country.
[01:04:15.820 --> 01:04:19.460] [SPEAKER_09]: It was, it was, it was an anti-war demonstration isolated on a campus.
[01:04:19.740 --> 01:04:22.780] [SPEAKER_09]: Whereas Beijing, you know, that's, that's the heart of the country.
[01:04:23.040 --> 01:04:24.360] [SPEAKER_09]: That's the, the, the capital.
[01:04:24.940 --> 01:04:29.860] [SPEAKER_09]: And can you imagine, like, if, if, if the homeless occupied Washington, D.C.
[01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:35.420] [SPEAKER_09]: And then they refused to let the tanks move for eight days or something like that, how, how, how, what would happen in our country?
[01:04:36.980 --> 01:04:37.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Interesting.
[01:04:37.620 --> 01:04:37.740] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:04:37.900 --> 01:04:42.720] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, you know, just, just some sort of people asking for, you know, the American dream.
[01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.440] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, you know, that, just asking for a fair share of something.
[01:04:45.540 --> 01:04:48.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, sir, you know, in a way we did have our own Tiananmen Square.
[01:04:48.520 --> 01:04:49.680] [EVILCORLEY]: And you know what it was called?
[01:04:50.060 --> 01:04:55.120] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, I'm sure we've had many, but, uh, I'm not sure just what you're referring to.
[01:04:55.160 --> 01:04:56.420] [EVILCORLEY]: It was, it was, it was called Tompkins Square.
[01:04:56.640 --> 01:04:57.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, okay.
[01:04:57.020 --> 01:04:59.200] [EVILCORLEY]: And I wonder if that's the first time anyone's drawn that analogy.
[01:04:59.740 --> 01:05:03.800] [SPEAKER_09]: That's, that's too, I guess, too close to the, to the woods to see the trees.
[01:05:04.200 --> 01:05:06.980] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, I, I was thinking in world terms and stuff.
[01:05:07.600 --> 01:05:08.640] [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you very much for calling, sir.
[01:05:08.680 --> 01:05:09.720] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm going to go on to some more calls.
[01:05:09.820 --> 01:05:10.220] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, Emmanuel.
[01:05:10.380 --> 01:05:10.700] [SPEAKER_09]: Take care.
[01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:11.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Good night.
[01:05:11.080 --> 01:05:11.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Good night.
[01:05:13.100 --> 01:05:13.860] [EVILCORLEY]: And good morning.
[01:05:14.900 --> 01:05:15.700] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, let me turn right.
[01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:16.100] [SPEAKER_10]: Wait a minute.
[01:05:16.380 --> 01:05:16.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:05:17.540 --> 01:05:17.860] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:20.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I'm trying to get my thoughts together.
[01:05:21.180 --> 01:05:23.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, one point about the, um, Beijing review.
[01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:24.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:05:26.340 --> 01:05:35.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, generally, like I was in China last year, and that's sort of like, I would think that would be put in, that article was mostly for Western consumption.
[01:05:36.020 --> 01:05:37.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yes, it was in English, but...
[01:05:37.380 --> 01:05:40.620] [SPEAKER_10]: In the hotels, the lobbies, and you know, you just pick up.
[01:05:41.160 --> 01:05:41.560] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[01:05:41.660 --> 01:05:45.420] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, like there are loads of them, you know, Beijing review for you to take home.
[01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:49.700] [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, it is put out by the government for, uh, Western eyes.
[01:05:49.980 --> 01:05:50.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:05:50.020 --> 01:05:59.120] [EVILCORLEY]: But then again, so is the English service of Radio Beijing, and I've been listening to that over the last few days, and, uh, it's, um, it hasn't been anything like what has been in this magazine.
[01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:02.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Ah, yeah, well...
[01:06:02.240 --> 01:06:08.600] [EVILCORLEY]: And I, you know, I can hardly wait until I get the next copy of this magazine to see if they completely change the way they, uh, they report on the events.
[01:06:10.240 --> 01:06:13.720] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, might even cease publication for a while.
[01:06:13.900 --> 01:06:16.820] [EVILCORLEY]: I, it's a, well, they might just stop sending it to me, I don't know.
[01:06:17.740 --> 01:06:28.540] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, no, there was one other thing, um, um, you mentioned about the, um, police being as repressive as they were.
[01:06:31.200 --> 01:06:46.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, the thing is, like, I expected them to be quite repressive, because, well, when you think of what the police, when they, um, let's see, was it about a year, no, a year and a half ago, the, uh, uprising in Tibet?
[01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:49.900] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, it's, it's an ongoing uprising, but, uh...
[01:06:49.900 --> 01:06:51.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it was sort of, like, a disturbance.
[01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:52.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:06:52.260 --> 01:06:53.100] [SPEAKER_10]: They were quite brutal.
[01:06:53.640 --> 01:06:57.880] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, yeah, but, uh, again, Tibet is not, uh, we didn't have any cameras there.
[01:06:58.020 --> 01:06:59.400] [EVILCORLEY]: So we don't really know what happened.
[01:07:00.100 --> 01:07:01.120] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, the...
[01:07:01.120 --> 01:07:08.660] [SPEAKER_10]: That is what surprised me, that they did not demand that the newspaper people leave.
[01:07:09.120 --> 01:07:14.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Because when the, um, South African government demanded that the journalists get out, they got out.
[01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:15.800] [EVILCORLEY]: Very, very good point there.
[01:07:15.940 --> 01:07:20.760] [EVILCORLEY]: For the last, uh, three years, uh, we have not seen any live...
[01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:22.860] [SPEAKER_10]: And are killing other South Africans.
[01:07:23.080 --> 01:07:28.820] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, we have not seen any live satellite pictures coming out of South Africa, and we have no way of saying this is outrageous.
[01:07:28.860 --> 01:07:37.240] [EVILCORLEY]: We just sort of put it in the back of our minds, and we see the censored story from South Africa once a week in the New York Times, and, uh, everything is, is fine and dandy.
[01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:38.640] [EVILCORLEY]: China, we saw it.
[01:07:38.740 --> 01:07:43.200] [EVILCORLEY]: We were there live, and then they pulled the plug, and we were there on tape, but we were still there.
[01:07:43.420 --> 01:07:51.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, as to why they, uh, why they didn't kick everybody out and just say, you know, everybody stop doing this and go away and let us kill our people in peace.
[01:07:51.300 --> 01:07:56.960] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, I, the only reason I can think of is confusion from within.
[01:07:57.380 --> 01:08:03.580] [EVILCORLEY]: There was not enough organization for them to do that, and, uh, they, uh, there are a lot of signs of that.
[01:08:03.800 --> 01:08:20.540] [EVILCORLEY]: The, the, the conflicts in the way it was presented in Beijing Review and on the, um, on the television in China, um, the, the long silence before anything was said about it, I don't think this was something that, uh, that was planned out extremely well.
[01:08:20.540 --> 01:08:33.300] [EVILCORLEY]: It's something that happened, and they had to figure out how to get out of it, how to make an excuse for it, how to get the people to continue to rally behind them, and I think they just picked up a copy of Animal Farm and figured the whole thing out.
[01:08:33.780 --> 01:08:51.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, do you think, um, I know, I got some impressions that, you know, when they, um, I think it was like the second week of the demonstration, when they said, well, if the students go home, they would be able to talk or something like that, and a lot of students began to leave.
[01:08:53.040 --> 01:08:53.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[01:08:54.040 --> 01:09:05.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, and then, when the others didn't leave, do you think at that point they decided, well, you know, I'm sorry, you know, enough is enough, we'll just have to, you know, take control?
[01:09:06.160 --> 01:09:23.300] [EVILCORLEY]: It's hard to say when the decision was made, but at some point, at some point, one of those octogenarians must have gotten really, really miffed, and, uh, realized that these punk kids weren't going to, uh, uh, take no as an answer, and they had to be given a good beating.
[01:09:23.300 --> 01:09:37.360] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the only thing, it's, it's, uh, it's really, in an absurdly simple way, a big generation gap, and, uh, a big gap in the Chinese, uh...
[01:09:37.820 --> 01:09:46.220] [SPEAKER_10]: When you think about last year, you know, Deng Xiaoping was being praised as this person who allowed, um, farmers to, you know...
[01:09:46.220 --> 01:09:52.360] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, certainly, but, I mean, just like, uh, Deng Xiaoping obviously has two sides, everybody can have a brutal side.
[01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:55.220] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sure, I'm sure Gorbachev has his, his, his brutal side.
[01:09:55.800 --> 01:10:00.800] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm, I'm sure Bush has his brutal side, or his good side, whichever you wish to focus upon.
[01:10:01.480 --> 01:10:02.420] [EVILCORLEY]: Isn't that the same side?
[01:10:03.440 --> 01:10:14.540] [EVILCORLEY]: So it's, um, once you look upon someone as either a, um, a hero or a villain, you're missing key aspects to them, to their, their character, yes.
[01:10:14.900 --> 01:10:15.340] [EVILCORLEY]: Deng Xiaoping...
[01:10:15.340 --> 01:10:18.800] [EVILCORLEY]: Deng Xiaoping seemed like a good guy, but now he seems like a bad guy.
[01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:23.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, now, I heard testimonials from people there, you know, what a great thing he was doing.
[01:10:23.980 --> 01:10:24.400] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:10:24.620 --> 01:10:38.840] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, we were taken to, you know, like, different, uh, small businesses, and you could actually see that, um, you know, I guess I, I, the best I could call it the, you know, different types of small businesses flourishing.
[01:10:40.340 --> 01:10:42.580] [SPEAKER_10]: And they had nothing but praise for Deng Xiaoping.
[01:10:42.580 --> 01:10:43.540] [EVILCORLEY]: It's very true.
[01:10:44.100 --> 01:10:47.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, China was on the verge of, uh, of much Westernization.
[01:10:48.100 --> 01:10:49.660] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, we're at the end of our time.
[01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:51.760] [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to, uh, thank you for calling.
[01:10:52.280 --> 01:10:57.060] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, thanks to all of the callers, uh, for calling in, uh, on this, uh, program.
[01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:17.260] [EVILCORLEY]: And, um, I guess, uh, the only parting words I can leave you with are to, uh, continue as, uh, with every kind of, uh, major event happening in the world to continue to follow it and ask a lot of questions and look for the other sides because, uh, that's something that's,
[01:11:17.440 --> 01:11:23.480] [EVILCORLEY]: uh, that's always missing in the mainstream media is the other side of the news.
[01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:29.920] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, we as individuals are, are entrusted with finding that out.
[01:11:31.200 --> 01:11:34.500] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know what's, uh, what's going to happen next in China.
[01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:43.140] [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, it certainly has been a scary couple of weeks for, for anyone that values, um, individual rights and, and liberty and that kind of thing.
[01:11:44.240 --> 01:11:58.700] [EVILCORLEY]: Um, again, though, if we, uh, if we watch this and we don't forget what's happening, uh, we'll learn something from it, something we can pass along, something we can prevent from happening in the future.
[01:11:59.740 --> 01:12:08.880] [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, go by the, uh, United Nations sometime, show your support to the students that are there, who I believe are there at this moment.
[01:12:09.340 --> 01:12:10.640] [EVILCORLEY]: I'll certainly try to do that.
[01:12:10.740 --> 01:12:11.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you.