Off The Hook - 1989-11-29

[00:05.730 --> 00:10.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: As usual, I've enjoyed, you know, sharing with you and being on the air with you.
[00:10.680 --> 00:20.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the things that I'm hearing is also that we can start taking care of ourselves and other people before the crisis, before it gets to that level.
[00:20.400 --> 00:23.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to just end with this poem by Pablo Neruda.
[00:23.900 --> 00:26.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the earth, I belong to everyone.
[00:26.880 --> 00:29.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is not a single drop of hatred in my breast.
[00:29.700 --> 00:33.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Open wide, my hands scatter grapes to the wind.
[00:34.320 --> 00:35.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Pablo Neruda.
[00:35.340 --> 00:36.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you all.
[00:36.570 --> 00:38.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, take care of yourselves very, very well.
[00:38.970 --> 00:40.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Love yourselves very, very well.
[00:40.430 --> 00:43.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: That opens the path to all else that we need.
[00:44.140 --> 00:46.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, sometimes it's a struggle.
[00:46.420 --> 00:48.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: The healing is a struggle and there's pain.
[00:48.360 --> 00:54.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in the breaking open of that, we get our clear thought and our clear mind and our clear action.
[00:54.790 --> 00:56.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: You all take care of yourselves very well.
[00:56.930 --> 00:57.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: I love you.
[00:57.700 --> 00:58.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: I love me.
[00:58.740 --> 01:00.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And until next time.
[03:19.950 --> 03:22.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's just about five minutes after one o'clock.
[03:23.030 --> 03:25.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're tuned to WBAI in New York.
[03:26.590 --> 03:29.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: The program, normally at this time, is weaponry.
[03:30.350 --> 03:35.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tom Whisker is not here this week, and nor will he be here the next two weeks after this.
[03:35.970 --> 03:44.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: My name is Emmanuel Goldstein, and we'll be trying to follow the same vein that Tom's show normally takes around this time.
[03:45.390 --> 03:58.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: We won't be as specific as far as weapons and military details and things like that, but I certainly want to talk about the things that are happening in the world today.
[03:58.730 --> 04:05.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Particularly things that are happening in Central America today, and the things that, so far, just aren't happening here.
[04:06.190 --> 04:07.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be taking your phone calls.
[04:08.410 --> 04:09.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be doing a lot of things.
[04:10.190 --> 04:12.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll learn until 3.30.
[04:12.350 --> 04:15.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our phone number is 279-3400.
[05:15.720 --> 05:16.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you, good night.
[06:31.840 --> 06:33.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I will not agree to another debate.
[06:34.120 --> 06:35.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: The answer is no.
[06:35.720 --> 06:38.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am not going to have any more debates.
[06:38.760 --> 06:40.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't need any more debates.
[06:40.760 --> 06:42.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've spelled out my position.
[06:42.260 --> 06:44.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: There will be no more debates.
[07:34.630 --> 07:37.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: You have to get on the sidewalk, okay?
[07:37.630 --> 07:38.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go on.
[07:41.280 --> 07:42.320]  No.
[07:42.540 --> 07:42.640]  Peace.
[07:43.680 --> 07:43.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[07:43.980 --> 07:44.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Peace.
[07:45.380 --> 07:45.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[07:48.240 --> 07:48.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Peace.
[07:50.780 --> 07:50.980]  No.
[07:54.060 --> 07:54.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Peace.
[07:54.960 --> 07:55.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[07:57.700 --> 07:58.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Peace.
[07:58.700 --> 07:58.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[08:01.280 --> 08:02.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Peace.
[08:02.220 --> 08:05.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: The answer is no.
[08:06.020 --> 08:07.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am not going to ask any more.
[08:13.440 --> 08:18.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: No justice, no peace.
[08:19.200 --> 08:30.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: No justice, no peace.
[08:30.020 --> 08:31.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: No justice, no peace.
[08:31.980 --> 08:40.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: No justice, no peace.
[08:48.400 --> 08:49.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's nobody in the truth.
[08:50.120 --> 08:53.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: No justice, no peace.
[08:53.760 --> 09:18.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: No justice, no peace.
[09:18.540 --> 09:21.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're fired up!
[09:21.300 --> 09:23.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're fired up!
[09:24.760 --> 09:26.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't take it no more!
[09:34.260 --> 09:38.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're fired up!
[10:20.200 --> 10:21.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: The answer is no.
[10:22.160 --> 10:24.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am not going to have any more debates.
[10:25.240 --> 10:26.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't need any more debates.
[10:27.180 --> 10:28.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've spelled out my position.
[10:28.740 --> 10:30.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: There will be no more debates.
[10:53.110 --> 10:55.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: With the music of Mikey Dread underneath us.
[10:56.350 --> 10:58.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And prior to that, a piece from Pink Floyd.
[10:59.490 --> 11:02.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Get your filthy hands off my desert.
[11:02.750 --> 11:04.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, good morning to you.
[11:04.750 --> 11:06.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: My name is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[11:06.290 --> 11:07.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to WBAI.
[11:07.790 --> 11:09.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm filling in for Tom Whisker this morning.
[11:10.890 --> 11:14.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a lot of things going on in the world.
[11:14.430 --> 11:15.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of historic events.
[11:16.190 --> 11:17.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Historic happenings.
[11:18.310 --> 11:25.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: 1989 is going to be one of those years that you just wonder, what was I doing?
[11:25.650 --> 11:26.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where was I?
[11:27.630 --> 11:29.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do I have to show for it?
[11:30.190 --> 11:37.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, folks, there are an appalling amount of nasty goings-on in the world.
[11:38.790 --> 11:45.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not a few of which this particular land that we are in right now is responsible for.
[11:46.530 --> 11:49.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: One of which is what's happening in El Salvador.
[11:50.610 --> 12:05.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you were looking at yesterday's newspaper, that is Tuesday's New York Times, you may have noticed an article about the killing of six priests in El Salvador just about two weeks ago.
[12:06.770 --> 12:25.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a woman described as a witness to those slayings, the slayings of six Jesuit priests, has provided the first sworn evidence linking the killers to the Salvadoran armed forces, and hence to the U.S.
[12:25.410 --> 12:25.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: government.
[12:26.850 --> 12:33.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: The judge investigating the slayings said today that he also thought that they had been committed by members of the armed forces.
[12:34.650 --> 12:44.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: They were wearing camouflage uniforms, said the 44-year-old witness, Lucia Barrera de Scherna, in a sworn statement shown to reporters by the judge, Ricardo A.
[12:44.250 --> 12:44.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Zamora.
[12:45.690 --> 12:58.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mrs. Barrera, who is now in the United States, under the protection of the FBI, after giving her deposition here, added that the uniforms were identical to ones she had frequently seen on soldiers in the street.
[12:58.810 --> 13:10.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Judge Zamora said, this was yesterday actually, that he had not received any information to contradict the widespread assumption that the slayings were carried out by members of the military or people linked to the armed forces.
[13:10.790 --> 13:26.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's logical, he said in a 20-minute interview in his office, he noted that the killers were able to travel during a dusk-to-dawn curfew that is strictly enforced by the armed forces, and that army units surrounded the area at the time of the slayings.
[13:27.030 --> 13:36.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: It probably was members of the military, but I can't discount any possibility, said the judge, who said he had been a close friend and student of one of the priests.
[13:36.710 --> 13:50.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: The six priests, who were among the most eloquent supporters of a negotiated settlement to the decade-old civil war, were slain on November 16th at the University of Central America, on the edge of the Capitol during a rebel offensive.
[13:51.870 --> 13:55.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think we really need to hear much more to get the point across.
[13:56.550 --> 14:00.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: That article in yesterday's New York Times pretty much says it all.
[14:01.430 --> 14:07.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is little doubt that the armed forces were behind that particular slaying.
[14:08.370 --> 14:24.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you know what's interesting, what gets me the most, if you were listening to the radios, TVs, what have you, reading the newspapers only a week ago, you may have seen the reports of those rebel terrorists who took over the hotel.
[14:24.330 --> 14:31.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, they actually had the nerve, they had the gall to go in there and hold Americans hostage.
[14:32.070 --> 14:34.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, it was the Isla Tola all over again.
[14:35.830 --> 14:39.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, are Americans going to just sit still and take this kind of garbage?
[14:39.930 --> 14:46.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are we going to just allow these dirty foreigners to get away with these deeds, even if it's in their own home countries?
[14:47.330 --> 14:50.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Boy, I mean, talk about riling people up.
[14:50.490 --> 14:53.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Talk about getting everybody in a patriotic fervor.
[14:54.330 --> 14:56.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Boy, those nasty rebels.
[14:57.050 --> 15:10.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, it didn't matter that the people they were keeping an eye on, let's say, in the hotel, were Green Berets, you know, military people in themselves, military people in their own country.
[15:10.590 --> 15:20.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, you know, imagine, imagine, if you will, I mean, this is almost impossible to imagine, I realize, but imagine, say, a bunch of, well, all right, let's say Libyans, what the hell.
[15:20.230 --> 15:26.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let's say a bunch of Libyans were here in New York, a bunch of Libyans with guns and things like that, right?
[15:26.130 --> 15:30.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Guns and M-16s, whatever you carry with you when you're a military person.
[15:30.830 --> 15:33.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: They were just sitting in the Penta Hotel, okay?
[15:34.370 --> 15:49.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Across the street here in downtown Manhattan, sitting in the Penta Hotel with their, you know, machetes and guns and knives, whatever they have, you know, talking all their military talk about how they were going to make this country safe for Libyan interests.
[15:49.630 --> 16:00.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then, a bunch of, a bunch of our boys went in there and decided to, to run the, the check-in process for a little while.
[16:00.230 --> 16:05.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, answer the phones and, you know, call taxis for people and just sort of run the hotel for a little while.
[16:07.030 --> 16:12.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's kind of, kind of a similar type of a thing to what happened down in El Salvador last week.
[16:12.730 --> 16:17.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: There were no actual, uh, hostage-taking incidents.
[16:18.330 --> 16:20.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Guns were not held to people's heads.
[16:21.190 --> 16:26.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, um, you know, it's, uh, it wasn't what it was, uh, played out to be.
[16:26.750 --> 16:31.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And even if it was, even if it was, for God's sake, look at what we're dealing with here.
[16:31.870 --> 16:33.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a war, you know?
[16:33.170 --> 16:34.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: These things happen in a war.
[16:35.350 --> 16:44.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, for, for us to get so high and mighty about this, when we're the ones that have sent in the people in the first place that, that keep this war going.
[16:44.810 --> 16:51.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: We get upset when they, you know, when people say, hey, you know, we don't like you all that much and, and maybe we'll, we'll hit you or something.
[16:54.030 --> 16:56.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it's only been two weeks.
[16:56.590 --> 16:59.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two weeks since the Jesuit priests were murdered.
[16:59.790 --> 17:02.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the story was buried before their bodies were.
[17:04.330 --> 17:06.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, whose fault is this?
[17:07.030 --> 17:08.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it, uh, our media?
[17:09.070 --> 17:10.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it our government?
[17:10.670 --> 17:12.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or is it maybe ourselves?
[17:12.990 --> 17:15.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe it's the fact that we just don't listen.
[17:16.250 --> 17:17.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't look.
[17:17.490 --> 17:18.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't learn.
[17:18.610 --> 17:21.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't have links to the past.
[17:21.230 --> 17:26.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't say, hey, only about 20 years ago, this same garbage was going on.
[17:26.610 --> 17:32.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why don't we look at the parallels and see, uh, you know, how maybe they, um, they interrelate.
[17:33.070 --> 17:36.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And maybe we can learn from our mistakes in the past and not repeat them again.
[17:36.990 --> 17:38.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it'd be kind of nice.
[17:38.470 --> 17:39.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good way to start the 90s.
[17:40.790 --> 17:45.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, folks, I know there's, uh, there's a bunch of people that are very dedicated.
[17:45.090 --> 17:45.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've seen them.
[17:46.830 --> 17:56.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, uh, if I can find the little piece of paper here that I clipped from, uh, from last week's paper about the demonstrators in Times Square.
[17:59.950 --> 18:01.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, it's all the way over here.
[18:02.190 --> 18:03.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Here it is.
[18:03.930 --> 18:23.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: 200, excuse me, 250 demonstrators, uh, protesting United States involvement in El Salvador briefly blocked the streets south of Times Square yesterday, snarling traffic during the evening rush hour, carrying signs and chanting anti-war slogans.
[18:23.350 --> 18:27.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: They broke through a cordon of police who had tried to confine their march to the sidewalk.
[18:28.270 --> 18:36.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: About 75 police officers, many on motor scooters or in patrol cars, formed their ring around the marchers, preventing them from moving south on Broadway.
[18:37.130 --> 18:40.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: The protesters then sat down, uh, in the street.
[18:41.250 --> 18:53.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And after several tense minutes of negotiations with police officers, the demonstrators returned to the sidewalk and marched peacefully to the Chrysler building on 42nd Street, where Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan has an office.
[18:53.590 --> 18:58.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: The New York Committee, in solidarity with the people of El Salvador, organized the protest.
[18:58.910 --> 19:24.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, apart from the fact that, uh, these three paragraphs in the paper were, uh, the only real mention of this event, 250 people in the city of New York City, only 250 people feel strongly enough about the killing that's going on in El Salvador to get out there and just march a little bit,
[19:24.510 --> 19:30.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: let alone, uh, you know, lie down in front of doors or participate in civil disobedience or something like that.
[19:31.950 --> 19:35.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, I mean, you know, we're sponsoring things.
[19:35.750 --> 19:37.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not going to say that the U.S.
[19:37.550 --> 19:40.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: government went in there with the intention of killing six Jesuit priests.
[19:40.950 --> 19:48.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, indirectly, we're every bit as responsible as the people that pulled the triggers.
[19:49.590 --> 19:51.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because we're, we're, we're setting it up.
[19:51.770 --> 19:54.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're setting it up in such a way that these things are just going to keep happening.
[19:56.530 --> 19:58.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's, it's really sad.
[19:58.370 --> 20:06.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I understand that there's, uh, going to be some kind of a demonstration in the city on Saturday against, uh, U.S.
[20:07.190 --> 20:07.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: involvement in El Salvador.
[20:08.810 --> 20:15.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you feel strongly at all, and even if you just have, have doubts, learn something by then.
[20:15.230 --> 20:18.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, maybe you'll be, uh, persuaded to take part in it.
[20:19.030 --> 20:21.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I don't have the full details.
[20:21.350 --> 20:23.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm in the process of, of trying to get the full details.
[20:23.890 --> 20:28.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you have some details, please call in with them and, uh, we will spread them around.
[20:29.750 --> 20:42.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we've got to do better than 250 people protesting, uh, a policy like this, uh, that allows a big, huge government like the United States government to go into a tiny country like El Salvador.
[20:43.530 --> 20:49.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it would be unfair to say that we caused the hell that's going on there.
[20:49.390 --> 20:52.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, we certainly are allowing it to continue.
[20:55.110 --> 20:57.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[20:57.410 --> 20:58.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be taking your phone calls.
[20:59.810 --> 21:08.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's something that, uh, you know, I've always felt something about this issue, but it wasn't until the last few weeks.
[21:08.270 --> 21:09.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was a couple of things.
[21:09.250 --> 21:18.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was the, um, the renewed fighting, obviously, that, that brought El Salvador back into the headlines, you know, at all, you know, for a while there, it wasn't even in the headlines, you know, where did it go?
[21:18.410 --> 21:19.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where did the country go?
[21:19.790 --> 21:21.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it's still down there.
[21:21.390 --> 21:24.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, there's still people living in fear, just like, uh, you know, in Lebanon.
[21:25.170 --> 21:30.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it was recently that the fighting and the killing started again, the horrors and the atrocities.
[21:30.870 --> 21:32.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's, that's going to sell some newspapers.
[21:32.790 --> 21:38.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you read about it again, unless you listen to a, a station like this, then you, you might hear about it a little bit more.
[21:39.390 --> 21:40.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it wasn't just that.
[21:40.410 --> 21:52.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was also the, uh, the events taking place in Eastern Europe that, uh, that got me thinking so much about what people can do when they set their minds to it.
[21:52.870 --> 21:56.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, when they say enough already, we're not going to take this garbage.
[21:56.830 --> 22:08.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we're, we're, we're going to go into the street, not just once, but every single day until there's a change, until something happens.
[22:09.870 --> 22:16.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now I was part of the, um, the march in Washington this, uh, this spring for abortion rights.
[22:17.070 --> 22:19.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that was incredible to say the least.
[22:19.550 --> 22:27.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I believe we had about 500,000 people there, half a million people in Washington, DC, the largest rally ever from, from what I understand.
[22:28.690 --> 22:29.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was good.
[22:29.570 --> 22:32.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was, uh, you know, rejuvenating to be a part of that.
[22:32.490 --> 22:35.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: But folks, we all went home on Monday.
[22:36.570 --> 22:40.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we were there on Sunday and we all went back on Monday and that was it.
[22:40.910 --> 22:51.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now imagine if 500,000 people had marched in Washington, DC every damn day until something was done.
[22:53.790 --> 23:03.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, they're doing that in, in Prague right now at this very moment, there's probably a march going on in Prague of a couple of hundred thousand people.
[23:03.190 --> 23:10.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, there was, um, an incredible general strike yesterday, which was, uh, incredibly successful.
[23:11.990 --> 23:16.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's a lot less people in, in Czechoslovakia than there are in the United States.
[23:19.390 --> 23:26.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: The, uh, the thing that it boils down to is the fact that, uh, we aren't focused enough.
[23:26.190 --> 23:29.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're just not caring enough about this one particular issue.
[23:29.990 --> 23:31.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And perhaps that's the problem.
[23:31.390 --> 23:36.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Perhaps there are too many issues to think about and we don't know where to focus our attention.
[23:36.230 --> 23:40.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, folks, I think this El Salvador policy is a good starting point.
[23:41.750 --> 23:59.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's wipe out that policy and take it from there because, uh, you know, justice is something that, uh, that you got to fight for it and you got to argue for it and you've just got to keep going and keep pushing until something happens, until something changes.
[23:59.790 --> 24:00.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's never easy.
[24:01.630 --> 24:06.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, here we don't really have to worry about putting our lives on the line.
[24:06.390 --> 24:09.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe we'll spend a night or two in jail or something like that.
[24:10.110 --> 24:18.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, um, in all the countries, in, in Eastern Europe, in, uh, in, in Asia, you never really know what's going to happen.
[24:19.510 --> 24:25.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, when the victories are won over there, they mean an awful lot.
[24:26.230 --> 24:28.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the people have an incredible spirit.
[24:29.170 --> 24:45.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I, I think what's going to come out of all this is, um, perhaps regrettably democracy will be cherished more in, uh, in other countries than it is here because, uh, we've grown complacent.
[24:46.210 --> 24:51.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't really think that there's anything to care about or to fight for, to worry about.
[24:51.870 --> 24:52.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we're happy.
[24:52.590 --> 24:53.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: We got our McDonald's.
[24:53.590 --> 24:54.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: We got our HBO.
[24:54.310 --> 24:55.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: We got our MTV.
[24:56.310 --> 24:59.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the battle is won.
[24:59.650 --> 25:01.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, folks, I don't think so.
[25:02.710 --> 25:08.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think the battle is, uh, is being lost every day that, uh, that we don't say something.
[25:08.450 --> 25:12.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every day that we just, uh, go to work and worry about our own petty concerns.
[25:12.910 --> 25:20.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not to say that our concerns are, uh, are trivial or meaningless, but, uh, there's a, a bigger picture, the picture of humanity.
[25:21.910 --> 25:24.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, the, the people you pass by in the street every day.
[25:24.650 --> 25:25.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: We all have a common link.
[25:25.970 --> 25:28.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that common link extends all throughout the globe.
[25:29.230 --> 25:31.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we've got to be a part of that.
[25:31.790 --> 25:41.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whether it's caring for the environment, caring for what we're doing to some poor people, some, uh, thousands of miles away or even hundreds of miles away.
[25:43.150 --> 25:45.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got to be aware of what's going on.
[25:45.270 --> 25:48.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[25:48.270 --> 25:52.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to hear it, uh, what people up at this time of night have to think.
[25:52.630 --> 25:53.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: My name's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[25:53.650 --> 25:58.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm filling in for Tom Whisker, uh, tonight and for the next two weeks after that.
[25:59.330 --> 26:02.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, let's hear what you folks have to say.
[26:02.370 --> 26:03.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[26:03.490 --> 26:03.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[26:04.890 --> 26:05.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hi.
[26:05.650 --> 26:06.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, go ahead.
[26:06.490 --> 26:09.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks a lot for, for, uh, doing the program on this subject.
[26:09.590 --> 26:10.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: I agree with you.
[26:10.550 --> 26:11.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's really crucial.
[26:11.590 --> 26:16.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, I also agree that, that the activist response to U.S.
[26:16.450 --> 26:20.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: intervention in El Salvador has not at all been adequate in New York City.
[26:20.550 --> 26:28.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: Around the country, there's been dozens of demonstrations, some of them ranging up to three and four thousand people in different cities.
[26:28.850 --> 26:35.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: And so the demonstration this Saturday is called by a broad coalition of, of peace groups.
[26:36.170 --> 26:38.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I do have the information on it.
[26:38.490 --> 26:49.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it's, it's a really, really important time for people to, to do a lot of outreach to make this the biggest thing yet to raise a loud voice about what's happening there.
[26:50.210 --> 26:52.410]  [SPEAKER_20]: It starts at 11 a.m.
[26:52.970 --> 26:55.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: at the Times Square recruiting station.
[26:55.590 --> 27:04.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, there will be, uh, a brief rally there and then it will be marching down later, um, towards Union Square.
[27:05.210 --> 27:09.910]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, I don't know exactly what time it will leave, but it, it will be going on for several hours.
[27:10.470 --> 27:21.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: And besides the demonstration Saturday, there is also going to be, uh, a rally and a civil disobedience on Monday morning at the federal building downtown.
[27:22.230 --> 27:25.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and, um, that will start at 8 a.m.
[27:26.590 --> 27:35.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, uh, I believe it's, uh, Broadway and, um, and, uh, Reed Street.
[27:35.490 --> 27:37.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry, what, what day is that?
[27:37.230 --> 27:37.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that the same day?
[27:38.130 --> 27:38.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, that's Monday.
[27:39.130 --> 27:39.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's Monday.
[27:40.290 --> 27:40.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[27:41.330 --> 27:44.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's the civil disobedience and that will be taking place where again?
[27:45.170 --> 27:49.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: At the federal building, which is, um, hold on.
[27:49.830 --> 27:55.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's at, uh, Broadway and Dwayne Street at 8 a.m.
[27:55.370 --> 27:58.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is this the, um, the biggest rally scheduled so far?
[27:59.150 --> 28:00.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, this is the biggest one in New York City.
[28:01.250 --> 28:03.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it's been endorsed by dozens of groups.
[28:04.570 --> 28:08.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, hopefully there will be more follow-up activities after that.
[28:08.390 --> 28:11.650]  [SPEAKER_20]: But this is the first step to really broadening out the protests.
[28:12.050 --> 28:15.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Any, um, any estimate on how many people was expected?
[28:15.910 --> 28:16.690]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not really.
[28:16.870 --> 28:21.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's, it's always hard to predict in advance, but we're really hoping it'll be in the thousands.
[28:22.230 --> 28:23.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: More than 250?
[28:24.010 --> 28:24.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: Definitely.
[28:24.730 --> 28:26.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, there's no question about that.
[28:26.330 --> 28:29.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, because a lot of organizations are involved in building for this.
[28:30.090 --> 28:32.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I could give out a phone number for more information.
[28:32.850 --> 28:34.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: People would like that.
[28:34.630 --> 28:35.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that could be very helpful.
[28:35.710 --> 28:36.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[28:36.390 --> 28:41.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, it's 431-9251.
[28:43.390 --> 28:44.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's 212.
[28:45.110 --> 28:46.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, you want to give it one more time?
[28:46.570 --> 28:46.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Sure.
[28:47.590 --> 28:51.450]  [SPEAKER_20]: 431-9251.
[28:51.890 --> 28:53.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's a number for which?
[28:53.450 --> 29:04.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's the, well, that's actually the Office of CISBES, the Committee in Solidarity with the people of El Salvador, which initiated this coalition, which is called the Emergency Coalition for Peace in El Salvador.
[29:04.950 --> 29:08.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: And those are the folks that, of course, got investigated by the FBI.
[29:08.310 --> 29:08.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[29:08.870 --> 29:10.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: For, uh, for their patriotism.
[29:11.310 --> 29:14.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, that's another thing I think that, uh, we should really be outraged at.
[29:15.230 --> 29:18.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Both, uh, what happened to CISBES, um, how long ago was that?
[29:18.850 --> 29:19.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: A year or so?
[29:20.010 --> 29:20.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two years?
[29:20.410 --> 29:34.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: It was revealed about, uh, a year and a half ago because of CISBES and the Center for Constitutional Rights, um, pressing the issue and, and agitating to get their files under the Freedom of Information Act, which took a lawsuit for them to get that.
[29:34.990 --> 29:44.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, of course, the surveillance had been going on, at least according to the documents, since, since the establishment of CISBES in 1980.
[29:44.590 --> 29:59.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: And although the FBI is now claiming that this is a thing of the past and they're, they've cleaned up their act, it's, it's quite clear that, that the whole Central America Solidarity Movement still continues to fall under surveillance and disruption.
[29:59.810 --> 30:18.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, and let's not also forget, uh, you know, if it's, if this is claimed to be something in the past, then how come the exact same thing just happened to, uh, to the librarians that, uh, raised a fuss over the, um, uh, the FBI's proposal for librarians to work with them to try to find people that are reading things that they shouldn't be reading,
[30:18.450 --> 30:25.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: or perhaps people with foreign-sounding last names that, uh, are, are reading things that could be harmful to, uh, to this country.
[30:25.950 --> 30:30.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some librarians objected to that, and a case was opened on each and every one of them.
[30:30.850 --> 30:32.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not something that's in the past.
[30:32.750 --> 30:32.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[30:33.130 --> 30:33.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Absolutely.
[30:33.510 --> 30:35.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, um, it's an ongoing thing.
[30:35.630 --> 30:36.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, thank you, sir, for calling.
[30:36.790 --> 30:38.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for passing on that information.
[30:38.290 --> 30:48.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And let's hope that there's, uh, there's, there's something, something may be reported in Prague that hundreds of thousands of people massed in the streets of New York to protest something that's unfair.
[30:49.210 --> 30:49.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for calling.
[30:51.850 --> 30:52.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[30:52.850 --> 30:53.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[30:53.670 --> 30:54.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[30:54.850 --> 30:55.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[30:56.710 --> 30:57.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[30:57.490 --> 30:57.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hello.
[30:58.230 --> 30:58.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[30:58.690 --> 30:58.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on.
[30:59.170 --> 31:03.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, um, I would like to say that I concur with you entirely, or almost entirely.
[31:04.130 --> 31:07.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: I want to just go and say to you that I was at rallies.
[31:07.410 --> 31:21.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've been to the Mandela rally, uh, a year ago, and the recent one, to the Martin Luther King birthday rally, to the homelessness and housing, uh, rallies where we met at, uh, the Coliseum, and we went across 57th Street.
[31:21.470 --> 31:23.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's three times, you know, in three years.
[31:24.210 --> 31:41.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, to the age rally, to the one for the tree that was cut down where they had this giant redwood, uh, uh, uh, tree at the UN, to the Namibian rally, to the Abbie Hoffman, uh, rally at, uh, Bleecker Street Cinema, when he had just died.
[31:42.110 --> 31:42.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[31:42.550 --> 31:44.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, apart from saying that there are a lot of rallies...
[31:44.630 --> 31:45.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: ...about the tuition.
[31:46.010 --> 31:46.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[31:46.330 --> 31:52.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: ...at the Rainbow Rally, again, to, uh, I want to just say that there are people who go to these rallies.
[31:52.770 --> 31:55.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: I did miss the Salvadorian one, I must admit that.
[31:56.090 --> 31:56.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know what I mean?
[31:57.070 --> 31:58.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: For the record.
[31:58.230 --> 31:59.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: I did miss that one.
[31:59.030 --> 31:59.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wanted to get there, but I did.
[31:59.650 --> 32:00.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: We all missed it.
[32:00.350 --> 32:01.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we blinked, we missed it.
[32:01.450 --> 32:02.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the problem.
[32:02.030 --> 32:02.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: What?
[32:02.750 --> 32:04.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you blinked, you could have missed it.
[32:04.370 --> 32:05.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the whole problem.
[32:05.390 --> 32:16.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: But the point is, that at all these rallies, um, how shall I say, except the housing one, the housing one had, at the last one, where we went across 57th Street, around 7,000 or 10,000 people.
[32:17.150 --> 32:24.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: But when you stop to think of the millions of people in New York City, you know, you say to yourself, well, it'd be nice if there were a million people there.
[32:24.550 --> 32:33.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: However, WBAI, which if it had a million subscribers, could amass $3 million you see what I mean?
[32:33.030 --> 32:35.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: If each person, uh, contributed just $3.
[32:36.090 --> 32:45.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, if 3 million New Yorkers gave a dollar, they could achieve, uh, uh, uh, you know, $3 million monies to work with, you know what I mean?
[32:45.990 --> 32:47.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Bob Fass made this point at one time.
[32:47.890 --> 32:48.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[32:48.390 --> 32:51.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I mean, you, you obviously know the importance of WBAI.
[32:51.570 --> 32:58.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know the importance of WBAI, but what we're talking here with, with the policy in El Salvador, we're talking about life and death.
[32:58.250 --> 33:06.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're talking about something that's, um, grossly unfair and is, is very likely to reach the stage of the Vietnam War if it, if it continues unchecked.
[33:06.310 --> 33:07.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, let me say this.
[33:08.010 --> 33:11.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is low intensity warfare, but it is another Vietnam.
[33:12.150 --> 33:13.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: The whole world is another Vietnam.
[33:14.410 --> 33:22.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: How, how the United States of America could have a person, if they had a choice between Mr. Bush and myself, they should have chosen me.
[33:23.130 --> 33:29.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: If, if New York City had a choice between, uh, Mr. Dinkins or Mr. Koch or me, they should have chosen me.
[33:29.370 --> 33:38.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: But the world, in a sense, it's like Murphy's law, where the good is rejected, but the less good is, is highly acceptable.
[33:38.870 --> 33:39.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you see my point?
[33:40.370 --> 33:43.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is one of the tragedies of the human, uh, condition.
[33:44.390 --> 33:44.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hello?
[33:45.030 --> 33:46.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I see your point.
[33:46.290 --> 33:47.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: I would like to just continue.
[33:47.730 --> 34:02.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: You may have heard Carletta's show, but I want you to know something, that my crying out against the, uh, restraint of a person, if he so or she so desired as an author, to mention the price of a, of a book.
[34:02.430 --> 34:09.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the, the, what has happened to me on this station amongst supposedly civilized and sensitive, uh, audience.
[34:10.270 --> 34:21.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, now, well, okay, that's happening in Salvador is no different than I have actually been personally told by Bob Fass that he would break my jaw and that he would.
[34:21.390 --> 34:21.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[34:21.790 --> 34:25.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I think, I think we're strained just a slight bit from the subject here.
[34:25.410 --> 34:27.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two, seven, nine, three, four hundred is our telephone number.
[34:27.690 --> 34:27.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[34:29.730 --> 34:31.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, that's me, but hopefully there's another person there.
[34:32.150 --> 34:32.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[34:32.530 --> 34:33.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, go ahead.
[34:34.310 --> 34:35.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it's delay.
[34:35.370 --> 34:36.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the wonderful world of delay.
[34:36.570 --> 34:36.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[34:36.830 --> 34:37.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hi, good evening, Mr. Goulson.
[34:37.910 --> 34:38.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: I heard your show once before.
[34:39.190 --> 34:40.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: I really admired it.
[34:40.390 --> 34:44.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I just want to know also, are you on the air ever aside from, uh, Mr. West's show?
[34:44.890 --> 34:49.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, well, I'll be filling in, uh, two more times after this, at this time slot.
[34:49.630 --> 34:54.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, after that, uh, only, uh, only God knows what, what I'll be doing, but I'll be doing something.
[34:54.730 --> 34:55.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[34:55.070 --> 35:02.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just wanted to say, you know, um, I'm against the United States getting involved in El Salvador, but I just wanted to correct you on one thing when you just compared it to Libya.
[35:02.530 --> 35:03.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's totally different.
[35:03.710 --> 35:08.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, one is the government of El Salvador, whether we like it or not, I don't like it, was elected.
[35:08.730 --> 35:11.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: And two, they invited us to help there as military advisors.
[35:11.670 --> 35:18.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: I personally do not think we ought to get involved militarily in El Salvador, especially since the, um, Iron Curtain has gone down.
[35:18.150 --> 35:25.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: If there was an Iron Curtain there and they were being held clandestinely through the Russians, I would be the number one for defending, you know, the Monroe Daction.
[35:25.410 --> 35:30.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: But I don't think communism at this point, or leftists, is a big threat in El Salvador to us, even if they got elected.
[35:31.050 --> 35:34.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I'm very nervous that we're going to get involved there.
[35:34.530 --> 35:36.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I mean, we're going to get much heavier involved.
[35:36.690 --> 35:45.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I personally think that now's the chance we can cut down our military budget and get back to the days prior to before we were the world's policemen.
[35:45.690 --> 35:56.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, if we have a CIA, they can be a listening device, not an active CIA going into different countries and doing things, just to listen, to see, to protect us in case of something, something happens.
[35:56.350 --> 35:57.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: So we should have ears.
[35:57.390 --> 35:57.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[35:57.770 --> 36:05.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I, I sense a kind of a, a, a dismay among many, uh, many people with all this glass nost and, uh, democratization in Eastern Europe.
[36:05.770 --> 36:06.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, it's, wait, wait a minute.
[36:06.750 --> 36:07.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where are you guys going?
[36:07.530 --> 36:08.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Come back here.
[36:08.270 --> 36:09.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: We still got some fighting to do.
[36:09.490 --> 36:16.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, I, I saw a cartoon in, um, in, uh, I think it was the New York Times last Sunday, uh, saying, we have to stay in El Salvador.
[36:17.050 --> 36:19.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's one of the few places left where we can fight communism.
[36:19.610 --> 36:21.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, human nature does not like change.
[36:21.750 --> 36:23.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, most humans do not like change.
[36:23.530 --> 36:26.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: You have some people, and it's good to have some of these people, like, for instance, Dan Quell.
[36:27.050 --> 36:28.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: He is very pessimistic.
[36:28.850 --> 36:35.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, it's not, and it's good to have someone like him in the, in the administration to keep things moderate, you know, because now Bush was big with glasses.
[36:35.530 --> 36:36.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think that's good.
[36:36.250 --> 36:36.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think it's good.
[36:36.770 --> 36:45.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: But you need the other side of the point of view, like, uh, Madison, James Madison always said, you need both sides of the equation for an even-handed policy.
[36:45.510 --> 36:58.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: But another thing is, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the reason why I haven't marched with El Salvador, I'm, I'm basically, um, uh, libertarian, conservative, and, um, with these protesters, some of these protesters, um, I feel very uncomfortable with.
[36:58.630 --> 37:00.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: For instance, I, we were at a cocktail party.
[37:00.550 --> 37:02.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, this has, this had to do with AIDS.
[37:02.890 --> 37:09.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, I have delivered meals at one time every day to AIDS patients, but, um, the, we had these protesters supposed to act up.
[37:09.170 --> 37:10.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know if you ever heard of him.
[37:10.150 --> 37:10.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yes, certainly.
[37:11.270 --> 37:20.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we were at a fundraiser for George Bush, and they came in and they just started raising hell and screaming, but, uh, you know, but, but, but, but sir, sir, that, that's democracy.
[37:20.610 --> 37:21.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, that's what happens.
[37:21.490 --> 37:22.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: It gets messy.
[37:22.590 --> 37:29.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: It actually gave everyone at the party a laugh, but when you looked at these people, I wouldn't want to sit there, and many of these people might be at the El Salvador rally too.
[37:29.830 --> 37:33.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, they had like bleached blonde hair, and they were like spooky looking people.
[37:33.450 --> 37:34.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: They actually hurt their cause.
[37:35.150 --> 37:37.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, but, but, sir, look, I mean, look at, look at New York City.
[37:37.830 --> 37:38.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you live in New York?
[37:38.750 --> 37:40.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, I live in New York City, yes.
[37:40.290 --> 37:40.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[37:40.470 --> 37:41.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Look at all the people in New York.
[37:41.830 --> 37:45.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's some people that you probably don't want to hang out with, yet that doesn't keep you from coming into the city.
[37:45.650 --> 37:49.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is bigger than, than the personalities that are, that you may see there.
[37:49.950 --> 37:53.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you're not going to agree with everybody, and every movement has, has idiots.
[37:53.750 --> 37:58.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: People that, that follow for, for no reason other than to be popular, that don't know what they're talking about.
[37:59.170 --> 38:02.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: No movement is, uh, is, is immune from that.
[38:02.350 --> 38:04.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, that's, that's no reason not to be a part of it.
[38:04.470 --> 38:09.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you believe in something, be there, and, and forget everybody else, be there for yourself.
[38:09.290 --> 38:16.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: But I find a lot of these movements, I mean, I love America, for instance, um, if I were to protest, I'd be protesting not out of a hate for America and things like that.
[38:16.650 --> 38:17.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean... Of course not.
[38:17.830 --> 38:31.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I'd be doing out of love, almost like a, a parent, not hitting a child, but almost like, um, I mean, it's my patriotic duty, like, and our founding fathers would be dumbfounded that we're getting involved in so many, uh... Of course they would.
[38:31.410 --> 38:41.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, and, and what's, what's annoying is the fact that, uh, uh, that the people who support this policy say that it's the patriotic thing to do, and they've got, you know, the flag behind them.
[38:41.470 --> 38:50.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, in Prague, over the last couple of days, the one thing that you saw on the streets, uh, almost as much as you saw the people, was the Czechoslovakian flag.
[38:50.510 --> 38:54.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, that, that is so right.
[38:54.290 --> 38:55.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, that, that makes so much sense.
[38:55.870 --> 38:58.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the people, uh, saying something.
[38:58.650 --> 38:59.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: They are the flag.
[38:59.710 --> 39:01.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: If anything is a symbol, it's that.
[39:01.510 --> 39:08.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: And any mass movement, any movement where, where people are, are calling for something in this country deserves the flag behind it.
[39:08.510 --> 39:09.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you've got to remember something.
[39:09.710 --> 39:12.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: In this country, the reason why we're so complacent is because we've had democracy.
[39:12.750 --> 39:13.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're adjusted to it.
[39:14.130 --> 39:15.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: And a lot of these countries, they go too fast.
[39:15.930 --> 39:19.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: For instance, France, the 1700s went very fast.
[39:19.190 --> 39:22.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And John Adams was like, yo, wait a minute, slow down.
[39:22.490 --> 39:25.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is not such a great thing for them over there because of the way they handled it.
[39:25.290 --> 39:26.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: They went too quickly into it.
[39:26.790 --> 39:28.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: We always went into it very slowly.
[39:29.450 --> 39:33.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the thing is, um, uh, you know, I'm very scared of big government in any way.
[39:33.870 --> 39:40.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I think that when you, I mean, I disagree with George Bush on his El Salvador policy, but I think he means, well, I disagree with George Bush on his drug policy.
[39:40.350 --> 39:44.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I basically believe in a phased in legalization of drugs and George Bush doesn't.
[39:45.070 --> 39:48.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, he believes in a very harsh policy, but I think deep down in his heart, he thinks he's doing the right thing.
[39:48.530 --> 39:53.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: A lot of people, especially at these rallies, think they're purposely doing it like clandestinely and for evil motives.
[39:53.950 --> 39:54.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't think that.
[39:54.970 --> 39:57.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just think that they, they're looking at it from a totally different angle.
[39:57.870 --> 40:09.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, you know, another thing that everybody seems to assume, uh, first of all, that, uh, that these people are completely, uh, apart from the rest of the world, that they're superstars and that there's no way that, that the average person can ever, uh,
[40:09.630 --> 40:11.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: be in contact with these people or anything like that.
[40:11.990 --> 40:13.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, you know, that's, that's a sickness.
[40:13.750 --> 40:25.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the other thing that, um, that folks seem to think is that the, the politicians And the leaders of governments are, you know, vastly intelligent people that know exactly what to do in a crisis.
[40:25.850 --> 40:27.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, to a degree, that may be true.
[40:27.890 --> 40:32.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: But they're really, they're not smarter than a lot of us.
[40:32.930 --> 40:38.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: They just know what it is they want to accomplish, and they have the means to do it.
[40:38.950 --> 40:41.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's, you know, that's what sets them apart.
[40:41.730 --> 40:45.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: And unfortunately, it's us that sets them apart more than they are.
[40:48.570 --> 40:49.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry, say that again?
[40:49.810 --> 40:56.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Every president, except Gerald Ford, except since Herbert Hoover's time, has been very distant from the people.
[40:56.830 --> 41:01.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, and the reason why security reasons for the Secret Service keep them away.
[41:01.830 --> 41:04.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: Prior to Herbert Hoover, people were able to go over to the president.
[41:05.330 --> 41:08.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, he was with every day the common man.
[41:08.470 --> 41:10.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: The reason why Ford was such a good president is because he was in Congress.
[41:10.930 --> 41:13.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: He was elevated to the presidency so quickly.
[41:13.090 --> 41:20.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, but I've seen, I've seen things over the last few weeks with, with Gorbachev, with Egon Krenz, where people are shouting at them, and he's responding.
[41:21.450 --> 41:28.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Recently in Chicago, somebody shouted a question about the El Salvador policy to George Bush, and they were ushered out of the room.
[41:28.470 --> 41:32.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's what I'm trying to say, is that you can, there's a difference between shouting and sitting down and chatting.
[41:33.030 --> 41:34.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Except you can't sit down and chat.
[41:34.590 --> 41:35.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: They won't let you do that, you see?
[41:35.910 --> 41:36.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's what I'm saying.
[41:36.590 --> 41:37.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's very bad.
[41:37.250 --> 41:38.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is what's the destruction of the president.
[41:38.810 --> 41:43.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this is what killed Lyndon Johnson, and this is what killed a lot of presidents, and Nixon especially.
[41:44.230 --> 41:46.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: But even, you said, it's become so imperial.
[41:46.650 --> 41:50.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Even people who like, let's say, I happen to like Bush, but I mean, I could not go over to George Bush.
[41:51.050 --> 41:56.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: There'd be a Secret Service, I mean, even to talk with him, chat with him on a friendly type basis, not even on a hostile basis.
[41:57.050 --> 42:02.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think it's very damaging to him himself, because he doesn't get the feel of the common man.
[42:02.130 --> 42:09.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's what I was trying to say, is that presidents, since Herbert Hoover, I mean, the sides of Ford, they've never had interaction, really, with the common man.
[42:10.070 --> 42:13.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're always with their advisors or planned, scheduled group of people.
[42:13.210 --> 42:15.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think that's very dangerous.
[42:15.490 --> 42:20.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: That certainly is, especially, I mean, it happens to any celebrity.
[42:20.470 --> 42:27.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I know celebrities that have complained vigorously of not being able to walk down the street, and it's really a sad thing.
[42:27.130 --> 42:35.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: But when you have somebody in a position of power, it becomes dangerous, because that person thinks they know what we want, and perhaps they don't.
[42:35.230 --> 42:37.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, George Washington was a celebrity in his day, believe me.
[42:38.090 --> 42:39.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: And people still would... I mean, that was a problem.
[42:39.970 --> 42:42.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: People used to walk into his house and just sit there and start talking to him, and people still...
[42:42.770 --> 42:46.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: He would walk down the street, and people would be able to approach him.
[42:46.330 --> 42:51.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, this was... I mean, and these people were not, you know, peasant farmers.
[42:52.010 --> 42:56.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: These were aristocratic people, but they still touched and they spoke with the common man.
[42:56.670 --> 43:01.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, that is very... And, you know, you don't know what to do, because for security reasons, you have to keep people away from the president.
[43:01.150 --> 43:01.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: So you don't know.
[43:02.470 --> 43:04.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's like a catch-22 type situation.
[43:04.850 --> 43:09.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: But why, in God's name, can't we have a real debate when it's election time?
[43:09.830 --> 43:15.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why do we have to have this structured garbage where the two candidates don't even talk to each other?
[43:15.210 --> 43:15.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[43:15.810 --> 43:16.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: At least give us that.
[43:17.510 --> 43:18.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: I have to agree with him.
[43:18.970 --> 43:23.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, like, this is more local with the Giuliani and Dick's debate.
[43:23.750 --> 43:26.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, Giuliani, I was very upset with Giuliani.
[43:26.710 --> 43:33.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, Giuliani, true, Dickens had a lot of negative stuff, but Giuliani, I felt, should have concentrated on his positive instead of concentrating so much on the negative.
[43:33.410 --> 43:37.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you bring up the negative, fine, but also bring up the positive with the Bush campaign.
[43:37.970 --> 43:39.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I supported Bush.
[43:39.490 --> 43:48.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I still support Bush, but I think there are a lot of things lacking in Bush and anyone, whether it was Bush or Dukakis, because they're so far removed from the people.
[43:48.530 --> 43:58.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, no human being, if I were to come over and shout at you something like those people in El Salvador, even if you're correct, just the approach of it is very alarming.
[43:58.610 --> 43:59.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's human nature.
[43:59.470 --> 44:03.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: So I can understand the president's reaction to it, even though I disagree with his ideas.
[44:03.850 --> 44:04.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Do you follow what I'm saying?
[44:04.670 --> 44:16.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I do, but still, I sense more suppression of ideas here than in other places, in other countries where things are happening now, where there is change.
[44:17.290 --> 44:21.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: If somebody were to shout out a question, they might be told to be quiet, but the question would be answered here.
[44:22.170 --> 44:26.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: The person is ushered out, the president makes some kind of a joke, and that's it.
[44:26.470 --> 44:29.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's all over, and everybody laughs and applauds and feels patriotic.
[44:29.530 --> 44:32.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, that's for a momentary purpose, those countries in Eastern Europe.
[44:32.010 --> 44:35.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I don't know in the long term what's going to happen with them.
[44:35.390 --> 44:39.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, you know, because they might move so rapid that they might move back again.
[44:39.530 --> 44:43.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, but you see, they're at the crest of something exciting, which we were once at.
[44:43.170 --> 44:51.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's at times like that that the government is closest to the people, whether it's the people throwing them out or the people ushering them in.
[44:52.290 --> 44:55.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's contact there, and you have to somehow preserve that contact.
[44:55.850 --> 45:01.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, I agree, and I think that this country, I mean, we might lose it, might eb down, but it'll come back.
[45:01.250 --> 45:05.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, if you look at the, from the 40s through, and then in the 60s, it was a movement.
[45:06.050 --> 45:08.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I didn't necessarily, I don't know, I was too young until I'm only 26.
[45:08.970 --> 45:12.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know if I would have agreed at the time what these people in the 60s did.
[45:12.750 --> 45:24.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, in hindsight, of course, I think many of what these so-called radical hippies, many of them had ideas that were, believe it or not, very similar to our founding fathers, which might surprise a lot of people if there were some ideas that were.
[45:25.650 --> 45:32.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, you know, that movement was, you know, that movement came up that was a homespun idea.
[45:32.210 --> 45:35.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was a, you know, a grassroots movement in the 60s.
[45:35.970 --> 45:38.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: So here you had a very complacent 1950s society.
[45:38.710 --> 45:42.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: You even had McCarthyism, which almost destroyed our democracy and our whole form of government.
[45:42.890 --> 45:45.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then on top, then the 60s came.
[45:45.830 --> 45:50.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: So I think Americans do fight his off.
[45:50.350 --> 45:50.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Do you know what I'm saying?
[45:51.670 --> 45:52.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think so.
[45:52.790 --> 45:55.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you're saying that eventually things will work themselves out.
[45:56.410 --> 46:00.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I think it's not quite that simple if we don't take an active role.
[46:00.930 --> 46:05.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: In other words, we don't do things like demonstrate against something that we think is unfair.
[46:05.630 --> 46:07.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, know why that we're demonstrating.
[46:07.490 --> 46:09.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not just go because it's the thing to do, but think about it.
[46:09.950 --> 46:13.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sit down, think about it a little bit, and say, you know, this is not right.
[46:13.190 --> 46:14.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Look at the papers.
[46:14.250 --> 46:14.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Read the papers.
[46:15.070 --> 46:21.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I can't tell you how many people I know that take pride in saying, you know, it's been two weeks since I've read a newspaper.
[46:22.070 --> 46:24.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't even know what's going on in the world.
[46:24.350 --> 46:26.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's like, how can you be proud of something like that?
[46:26.230 --> 46:28.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Only in America do I see things like this.
[46:29.770 --> 46:32.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Especially in a country that has such an effect on the rest of the world.
[46:33.030 --> 46:34.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: The rest of the world looks to us for...
[46:43.480 --> 46:45.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: These men who took the time...
[46:45.180 --> 46:48.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you have that in every society, especially in democratic society.
[46:49.080 --> 46:51.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, the Greeks forced their people to parpaspate.
[46:51.540 --> 46:52.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's why they...
[46:52.300 --> 46:54.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: And one of the reasons they downfold was just too much.
[46:55.540 --> 46:57.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, apathy will do it to you every time.
[46:57.200 --> 46:58.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, apathy...
[46:59.440 --> 47:02.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: But there's still enough people, I think, to arouse.
[47:02.020 --> 47:06.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I think that when things were like with the whole My Lai incident, that aroused people's anger.
[47:06.560 --> 47:09.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I know this from history, not from being there at the time.
[47:09.460 --> 47:13.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, Nixon did pardon the man, but, I mean, that aroused anger.
[47:13.900 --> 47:14.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: As well it should.
[47:15.040 --> 47:19.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, it was a very isolated incident to what happened in Nazi Germany, and we did not allow it.
[47:19.240 --> 47:25.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: See, what I sense here today is we must avoid talking about things that will get us into arguments.
[47:25.660 --> 47:26.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I say, why?
[47:26.740 --> 47:27.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why avoid these things?
[47:28.020 --> 47:33.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why not plunge right into an argument and know what it is we're arguing for and discuss things?
[47:33.300 --> 47:35.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we don't discuss things enough here.
[47:35.440 --> 47:37.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there are so many things happening.
[47:38.780 --> 47:41.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we really have to take a stand on some of these things.
[47:41.960 --> 47:43.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's the problem when you have a large government.
[47:43.280 --> 47:46.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I'm not just talking about this National Endowment for the Arts.
[47:46.640 --> 47:47.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: Take that for an example.
[47:47.860 --> 47:55.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, I don't like when it was first being proposed, most people in the most moderate, because some people said, we don't want it.
[47:55.240 --> 47:59.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the reason why we don't want this is because then the government's going to tell people how to do art.
[47:59.520 --> 48:01.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then there's only going to be moderate art.
[48:02.300 --> 48:05.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: And believe it or not, it so happens that it's the conservative Republicans.
[48:05.260 --> 48:06.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: I wouldn't even say conservative.
[48:06.400 --> 48:10.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: I would say fascistic Republicans, because Jesse Helms is not your typical Republican,
[48:14.020 --> 48:17.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: who's put these sanctions on the National Endowment.
[48:17.260 --> 48:22.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: And when you take things from the government like that, they, in a sense, have a right to tell you what to do.
[48:22.120 --> 48:24.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Maybe that's why I'm against all these government programs.
[48:24.640 --> 48:26.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Government has grown too big.
[48:26.380 --> 48:28.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: In emergencies, you do need government to get big.
[48:29.120 --> 48:31.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: But right now, we don't need such a large government.
[48:31.720 --> 48:35.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's why they have such control over the media and things like that.
[48:35.140 --> 48:37.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: The media is not as investigative enough also.
[48:37.960 --> 48:39.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's certainly true.
[48:39.640 --> 48:41.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think they certainly should be.
[48:41.920 --> 48:43.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Listen, sir, I'm going to try to get on to some more calls.
[48:43.680 --> 48:45.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have a good night and keep up the good work.
[48:45.100 --> 48:46.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: I hope you get your own programs.
[48:46.200 --> 48:46.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[48:46.740 --> 48:47.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for calling.
[48:47.420 --> 48:47.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bye-bye.
[48:48.100 --> 48:50.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[48:51.220 --> 49:01.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, I was thinking the other day of all the things that we've been accusing the Eastern European governments of doing.
[49:02.180 --> 49:04.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm not, you know, I'm not America bashing here.
[49:04.600 --> 49:06.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is just objective thinking.
[49:06.400 --> 49:23.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, if your reaction is to say that somebody who comes up with these thoughts is anti-American, and I think you should think about just what is America and why it is that we can't question the values and what's being done.
[49:24.340 --> 49:35.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And perhaps if you automatically assume that someone who criticizes is anti-American, perhaps that's the most subtle form of anti-Americanism in itself.
[49:36.140 --> 49:45.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: In any event, what I was thinking was sort of a collection of all the different things that we used to accuse the Soviets of doing.
[49:46.260 --> 49:52.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Things like shutting people up all the time, not allowing debates.
[49:52.680 --> 49:54.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we've heard it from the President.
[49:55.100 --> 49:56.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: There'll be no more debates.
[49:58.700 --> 50:03.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And things like sending up secretive space missions.
[50:03.360 --> 50:04.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, now we do that too.
[50:05.300 --> 50:08.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we send up these space shuttles.
[50:08.580 --> 50:09.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't tell anybody when they're going up.
[50:10.000 --> 50:11.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have no media coverage.
[50:12.440 --> 50:14.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: At least, not very good media coverage.
[50:15.700 --> 50:17.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And all these other things.
[50:17.960 --> 50:22.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Controlling of the art, like the gentleman on the phone just mentioned.
[50:24.660 --> 50:33.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Actually cutting off funds to an art exhibit because it was, quote, too political, as if politics has no place in the art world.
[50:33.860 --> 50:37.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Little things like that, little steps, you know?
[50:37.820 --> 50:44.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Little symptoms of a society that looks ever more...
[50:45.720 --> 50:51.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: With ever-increasing hostility towards any form of dissent.
[50:52.660 --> 50:55.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And here we see sort of a flip-flop, you know?
[50:55.680 --> 50:57.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: We see change.
[50:57.200 --> 50:58.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: We see dialogue over there.
[50:59.040 --> 51:00.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And here, silence.
[51:01.500 --> 51:02.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's kind of scary.
[51:03.460 --> 51:04.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[51:04.520 --> 51:05.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[51:06.580 --> 51:07.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello?
[51:07.280 --> 51:07.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[51:08.140 --> 51:08.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did I wake you up?
[51:09.040 --> 51:09.900]  [SPEAKER_22]: Is this WBA?
[51:10.020 --> 51:10.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, it is.
[51:10.560 --> 51:10.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on.
[51:11.280 --> 51:11.520]  Okay.
[51:14.180 --> 51:14.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you there?
[51:15.040 --> 51:15.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: No?
[51:15.360 --> 51:15.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, go ahead.
[51:16.640 --> 51:17.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[51:19.400 --> 51:28.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: The thing that I wanted to talk about is how incredibly interesting the coverage on Eastern Europe has been in the major media.
[51:31.420 --> 51:46.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: It used to be when, say, during the Brezhnevar, when it seemed like there was no hope for positive change in authoritarian socialist countries, the standard line is these countries are totalitarian.
[51:47.040 --> 51:50.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: They're incapable of any positive change short of a violent revolution.
[51:50.960 --> 51:52.240]  [SPEAKER_22]: The Gene Kirkpatrick one.
[51:53.460 --> 52:06.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: And now that the countries are going through positive change, the established media in this country only says, this means that communism doesn't work.
[52:07.980 --> 52:09.240]  [SPEAKER_22]: But they don't...
[52:09.790 --> 52:19.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: It seems like they purposely are trying to avoid what the leaders of those opposition movements believe in, what they're about.
[52:19.700 --> 52:28.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: For instance, in East Germany, there were some very interesting articles in the Village Voice about the oppositionists, such as, you know, the New Foreign Party.
[52:29.340 --> 52:32.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, not the New Foreign Movement, rather than the New Foreign Party.
[52:32.280 --> 52:33.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's not a political party.
[52:33.560 --> 52:43.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it appears that the major thrust of the oppositionists in East Germany is really towards a democratic, humane form of socialism.
[52:44.360 --> 52:47.940]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's not towards a capitalistic economy.
[52:48.100 --> 52:56.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: Matter of fact, the leaders of the opposition in East Germany wrote some sort of manifesto.
[52:56.700 --> 53:20.880]  [SPEAKER_22]: And in the manifesto, they actually criticized Hungarian steps towards a market economy, saying that it's really promoted in egalitarianism, and it was not fair to the poorer people in Hungary.
[53:24.140 --> 53:27.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it's just kind of interesting how the media is handling it.
[53:27.540 --> 53:35.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, you might find this interesting, the fact that there has been a lot of coverage of things like the scaling of the Berlin Wall and the events in Prague.
[53:35.980 --> 53:47.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I read someplace where the actual ratings for that particular news coverage were the lowest ever, as if the people in this country couldn't care less about what was going on over there.
[53:47.380 --> 53:49.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I found that kind of dismaying, too, you know?
[53:50.620 --> 53:54.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: I don't know why it should be so dismaying.
[53:54.620 --> 54:07.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, in regards to oppression going on in the world, the oppression of people in Eastern Europe compares nothing to the oppression of people living in capitalist countries in the Third World.
[54:08.300 --> 54:09.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, well, I mean...
[54:09.660 --> 54:11.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: There's just absolutely no comparison.
[54:11.160 --> 54:26.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: You see, I think that phrase would probably turn off people that are pro-capitalist, but I don't see why it should, because it's to everyone's advantage who lives in a capitalist society to see that it works somehow, you know?
[54:26.920 --> 54:34.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're a capitalist and there's oppression going on because of capitalism someplace, that should affect you, and you should want to change that.
[54:35.660 --> 54:40.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what I think is happening in all kinds of places all over the world.
[54:42.220 --> 54:52.940]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, but, you know, it's very questionable whether capitalism in the undeveloped countries really can do much for the average citizen in improving their lives.
[54:53.180 --> 54:58.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, there's some examples that are used, such as South Korea.
[54:59.020 --> 55:20.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: I don't really know much about the standard of living in South Korea, but, you know, some of the examples that the establishments previously used in this country as kind of models for development of third world countries such as Brazil, it ends up, even though Brazil had very high economic growth,
[55:20.500 --> 55:25.480]  [SPEAKER_22]: there's an incredible amount of poverty and malnutrition in the country.
[55:26.320 --> 55:43.960]  [SPEAKER_22]: Cuba, on the other hand, for all its flaws, and I'm certainly not a defender of the authoritarian brand of socialism there, I think in many ways it may have been imposed by the unnecessarily hostility on the part of the most powerful military country in the world,
[55:44.040 --> 55:53.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: the United States, seems to have the highest standard of living in Latin America, if you're, you know, judging standard of living by...
[55:53.540 --> 55:53.920]  Right.
[55:53.920 --> 56:02.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they have a higher standard of living at the expense of some things, which some people would say is intolerable, some people would say is a necessary trade-off.
[56:02.920 --> 56:20.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I think, you know, we're making a big mistake here if we just watch all these changes taking place in Eastern Europe and say, hey, you know, they're taking on Western ways, they're embracing democratic reforms without us taking a good hard look at our own system and saying,
[56:20.200 --> 56:24.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: well, maybe there's something we can learn from what they tried to do or what they are trying to do now.
[56:25.200 --> 56:41.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, it's some... the people there have no objection to taking on ways that are alien to their society, you know, taking on capitalist type of means of doing things or democratic reforms, that kind of thing.
[56:42.040 --> 56:49.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if you say to anybody here, let's try, you know, a socialist way of dealing with this particular problem to see how that works.
[56:49.460 --> 56:53.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, oh my God, no, no, no, no, socialism, communism, oh, it's horrible.
[56:53.740 --> 56:55.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we're the most powerful country in the world.
[56:55.860 --> 57:00.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why are we so scared of trying out something in a slightly different way, you know?
[57:00.740 --> 57:12.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what we have to get across is that fear, that horrible fear of change, a fear of anything different, which is the basis of any kind of patriot and nationalism, all that nasty stuff, you know?
[57:12.700 --> 57:17.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: The thing about democracy is that it's a very nebulous and vague term.
[57:18.880 --> 57:36.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: However, democracy, whatever that means exactly, there doesn't seem to be any real conflict or contradiction between socialism and democracy.
[57:37.040 --> 57:53.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: Just as capitalism can exist in many different forms, there could be authoritarian capitalism, as certainly practiced many places in the world, such as El Salvador, and it was practiced in Nazi Germany, even though some people think that was a socialist economy,
[57:53.640 --> 57:56.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: but it was essentially a capitalistic economy.
[57:56.880 --> 58:15.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: Nazis really did, in essence, save German capitalism, and capitalism before these, you know, what Marxists would call the bourgeois revolution, such as the American Revolution and the French Revolution, certainly had dictatorial governments.
[58:17.680 --> 58:26.480]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, you know, just as capitalism can exist in, you know, varying governmental forms, so can socialism.
[58:26.480 --> 58:38.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's just, I think socialism is a very young system, and it's met with a lot of external resistance from without powerful capitalist countries.
[58:38.960 --> 58:49.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, I would even hasten to say that many of the enemies of socialism came from within socialism itself.
[58:49.720 --> 59:08.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: You could say, you know, the United States has been an enemy of socialism, but I would also say that, uh, that the oppressors, uh, the Nikolai, uh, Chichescu's, the, um, uh, uh, Leonard Brezhnev's, perhaps, uh, maybe even the Mao Zedong's are actual enemies of socialism because,
[59:09.060 --> 59:27.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: uh, they would, uh, uh, introduce oppression, totalitarianism, uh, type of things that, uh, that give socialism a bad name and, uh, make the people want something else and, uh, maybe lose track of what it is that they fought for in the first place.
[59:27.740 --> 59:29.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, sir, I want to thank you for calling.
[59:29.740 --> 59:33.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we are taking more phone calls at 279-3400.
[59:33.580 --> 59:36.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[59:41.460 --> 59:47.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we're, uh, looking at an article here, uh, by Robert E.
[59:48.080 --> 59:48.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: White.
[59:49.140 --> 59:50.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember Robert E.
[59:50.300 --> 59:50.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: White?
[59:50.620 --> 59:53.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: I do, uh, he was the former U.S.
[59:54.120 --> 59:58.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: ambassador to El Salvador, uh, from 1977 to 1980.
[59:58.140 --> 01:00:08.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: But what was particularly interesting about him was the fact that he would say all these things about how the United States is really messing things up over there by, by their policy.
[01:00:09.100 --> 01:00:11.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Even while he was part of the policy.
[01:00:11.200 --> 01:00:15.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Even while he was part of the, of the United States government representing us in El Salvador.
[01:00:16.120 --> 01:00:16.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was incredible.
[01:00:17.080 --> 01:00:19.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I, I'd never seen such a thing and it was, it was quite a surprise.
[01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:22.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, but it was no surprise when he got sacked.
[01:00:23.140 --> 01:00:28.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, he, uh, he was ambassador from 1977 to 1980.
[01:00:28.300 --> 01:00:31.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right now he's president of the International Center for Development Policy.
[01:00:31.260 --> 01:00:34.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And perhaps, uh, in the coming weeks we'll have him as a guest.
[01:00:34.300 --> 01:00:35.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: I certainly would hope so.
[01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:41.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is, uh, a piece that he had in the Times, uh, about a week ago, uh, on the opinion page.
[01:00:42.140 --> 01:00:45.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think it, it bears listening to because this is somebody that's been there.
[01:00:45.700 --> 01:00:52.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is somebody that obviously knows something about the, uh, uh, the policy, the country, the people, and, uh, where it's all leading.
[01:00:52.940 --> 01:01:06.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, the history of El Salvador bears consistent witness to the greed and brutality of men who look on compromise as weakness and who regard torture and murder as routine and acceptable methods of coping with dissent.
[01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:08.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: The failure of U.S.
[01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:18.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: policymakers to press for a negotiated end to the war in El Salvador has placed our country in league with a click of assassin, uh, assassins, excuse me, masquerading as an army.
[01:01:19.060 --> 01:01:33.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, the war in El Salvador entered a new phase last week, actually two weeks ago, when the left-wing Farabunda Marti National Liberation Front, or FMLN, angered by government rejection of their peace proposals, launched its heaviest offensive of the war.
[01:01:34.560 --> 01:01:41.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: If revolutionary leaders thought this impressive show of strength would lead quickly to negotiations, they miscalculated.
[01:01:41.500 --> 01:01:46.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: To the Salvadoran military, the rebel attacks came as a gift.
[01:01:46.420 --> 01:01:56.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: An opportunity to wipe out not only insurgents, but also priests, labor union organizers, peasant leaders, and thousands of poor citizens who support change.
[01:01:57.740 --> 01:02:07.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: On November 16th, 1989, armed, uniformed men dragged six Jesuit priests and two servants from their beds.
[01:02:07.420 --> 01:02:12.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: They tortured the priests for close to an hour, then executed all their captives.
[01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:23.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Catholic university where these priests lived and worked is under 24-hour surveillance by the security forces, and is located in a zone far away from the fighting.
[01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:29.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: To their credit, both President Alfredo Cristiani and the U.S.
[01:02:29.860 --> 01:02:37.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Assistant Secretary of State, Bernard Aronson, have acknowledged that right-wing forces probably bear responsibility for these barbaric murders.
[01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:41.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: They never would have made such statements without evidence.
[01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:47.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Through its intelligence assets inside the Salvadoran military, the U.S.
[01:02:48.160 --> 01:02:50.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Embassy can find out which officers carried out these crimes.
[01:02:51.520 --> 01:02:52.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Unless the U.S.
[01:02:52.860 --> 01:03:01.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: reacts strongly, the lives of all priests, nuns, and Protestant missionaries who work with the poor of Central America are in jeopardy.
[01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:04.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: The highly professional U.S.
[01:03:04.500 --> 01:03:11.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ambassador to El Salvador, William Walker, misspoke when he stated that whoever killed the Jesuits did the work of the FMLN.
[01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:34.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whoever killed those priests did the work of the military death squads, the same people who assassinated Archbishop Oscar Arnaufo Romero, the same who violated and murdered four American churchwomen and massacred hundreds of priests, nuns, and layworkers.
[01:03:35.420 --> 01:03:43.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is little tolerance inside the ruling Arena Party and the hardline military for Mr. Christiani's commitment to a negotiated solution to the war.
[01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:53.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: In the sick minds of men, like the former death squad leader, Roberto D'Abrisson, Mr. Christiani is only a figurehead.
[01:03:54.620 --> 01:04:00.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Arena's 1988 campaign chant tells the story, Christiani to the presidency, D'Abrisson to power.
[01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:07.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Day after day, the world watches with horror as modern engines of war supplied by the U.S.
[01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:13.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: troops strafe, bomb, and burn the shanty towns of San Salvador, maiming and killing thousands of innocent civilians.
[01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:19.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: They do little damage to the pockets of mobile guerrillas armed only with handheld weapons.
[01:04:20.340 --> 01:04:24.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: The government has denied Red Cross' request for a ceasefire to evacuate the wounded.
[01:04:25.420 --> 01:04:32.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: No civilized people can support such a war without inflicting substantial moral harm on its own body politic.
[01:04:33.600 --> 01:04:37.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: The leaders of our nation have never made any plausible case that U.S.
[01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:40.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: security benefits in any way from this continuing slaughter.
[01:04:41.460 --> 01:04:48.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: President Bush described the Salvadoran revolutionaries as terrorists, and the Salvadoran government as a democracy.
[01:04:48.920 --> 01:04:50.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wrong on both counts.
[01:04:51.700 --> 01:05:01.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: The revolutionaries took up arms only after the military and economic elites of El Salvador had rejected all avenues of peaceful change for more than half a century.
[01:05:02.240 --> 01:05:09.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: No competent observer doubts that the Salvadoran revolution is homegrown, authentic, and enjoys wide popular support.
[01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:14.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: The revolutionaries have made serious proposals for a negotiated end to the conflict.
[01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:22.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: In response to their well-thought-out peace plan, the reply was, the government of El Salvador will not give an inch.
[01:05:23.140 --> 01:05:32.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Their demand that the military purge itself of its most notorious abusers of human rights was derided as absurd, ridiculous, and impossible.
[01:05:33.560 --> 01:05:37.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: The composition of the armed forces was not negotiable.
[01:05:39.180 --> 01:05:45.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: A week ago, the House, at the request of Mr. Bush, rejected efforts to restrict military aid to El Salvador.
[01:05:46.100 --> 01:05:57.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: The outdated security doctrine that guides Bush administration thinking demands the subordination of El Salvador's need for social and economic justice to our supposed national security requirements.
[01:05:58.860 --> 01:06:04.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: This has meant the establishment of a veneer of democracy in El Salvador, where the armed forces with U.S.
[01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:10.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: acquiescence decide with deadly force who can and cannot participate in political life.
[01:06:11.700 --> 01:06:18.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: In El Salvador, the fundamental duty of a democratic government to protect its citizens has been stood on its head.
[01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:27.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: People are tortured, disappear, and are killed at the whim of security forces that enjoy absolute immunity from legal action.
[01:06:28.360 --> 01:06:31.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: The guerrillas are not trying to shoot their way into power.
[01:06:31.900 --> 01:06:34.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: They are trying to shoot their way into serious negotiations.
[01:06:35.900 --> 01:06:39.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Salvadoran government would not survive for one month without U.S.
[01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:40.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: support.
[01:06:40.640 --> 01:06:49.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: If the Bush administration had used this leverage to ensure good-faith discussions, the tragedies of these last few weeks might never have occurred.
[01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:52.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: That piece from Robert E.
[01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:54.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: White, former U.S.
[01:06:55.300 --> 01:06:56.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: ambassador to El Salvador.
[01:06:58.120 --> 01:06:59.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Worth thinking about.
[01:07:00.380 --> 01:07:08.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, there is a rally in New York this Saturday, beginning at 11 o'clock, if you think the U.S.
[01:07:08.860 --> 01:07:12.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: policy in El Salvador needs a bit of fixing.
[01:07:12.420 --> 01:07:15.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our phone number is 279-3400.
[01:07:15.340 --> 01:07:16.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be right back.
[01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:23.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Ever's blood.
[01:07:24.540 --> 01:07:28.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: A finger fired the trigger to his name.
[01:07:29.820 --> 01:07:34.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: A handle hit out in the dark.
[01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:36.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: A hand set the spark.
[01:07:36.380 --> 01:07:41.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Two eyes took the aim behind a man's brain.
[01:07:41.720 --> 01:07:44.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: But he can't be blamed.
[01:07:44.620 --> 01:07:44.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: But he can't be blamed.
[01:07:45.600 --> 01:07:49.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's only a pawn in their game.
[01:07:52.220 --> 01:07:57.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: New South politician preaches to the poor white man.
[01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:03.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: You got more than the blacks don't complain.
[01:08:03.100 --> 01:08:06.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're better than them.
[01:08:06.340 --> 01:08:09.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: You've been born with white skin, they explain.
[01:08:10.680 --> 01:08:16.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the Negro's name is used, it is plain.
[01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:19.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: For the politicians gain.
[01:08:20.820 --> 01:08:22.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: As he rises to fame.
[01:08:23.340 --> 01:08:25.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the poor white remains.
[01:08:25.620 --> 01:08:27.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: On the caboose of the train.
[01:08:27.940 --> 01:08:29.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it ain't him to blame.
[01:08:29.620 --> 01:08:34.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's only a pawn in their game.
[01:08:39.460 --> 01:08:44.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid.
[01:08:45.780 --> 01:08:49.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the marshals and cops get the same.
[01:08:51.740 --> 01:08:58.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool.
[01:08:59.420 --> 01:09:01.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's taught in his school.
[01:09:02.660 --> 01:09:04.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: From the start by the rule.
[01:09:05.030 --> 01:09:06.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: That the laws are with him.
[01:09:07.240 --> 01:09:09.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: To protect his white skin.
[01:09:09.690 --> 01:09:11.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: To keep up his hate.
[01:09:11.690 --> 01:09:13.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: So he never thinks straight.
[01:09:13.740 --> 01:09:15.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: About the shape that he's in.
[01:09:15.500 --> 01:09:17.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it ain't him to blame.
[01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:22.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's only a pawn in their game.
[01:09:26.130 --> 01:09:28.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: From the poverty shacks.
[01:09:28.810 --> 01:09:31.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: He looks from the cracks to the tracks.
[01:09:33.290 --> 01:09:37.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the hoof beats pounding his brain.
[01:09:37.770 --> 01:09:41.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's taught how to walk in a pack.
[01:09:42.180 --> 01:09:45.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Shoot in the back with his fist in a clinch.
[01:09:46.150 --> 01:09:48.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: To hang and to lynch.
[01:09:49.050 --> 01:09:51.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: To hide neath the hood.
[01:09:51.410 --> 01:09:53.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: To kill with no pain.
[01:09:53.670 --> 01:09:55.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like a dog on a chain.
[01:09:55.870 --> 01:09:57.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: He ain't got no name.
[01:09:57.930 --> 01:09:59.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it ain't him to blame.
[01:09:59.950 --> 01:10:04.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's only a pawn in their game.
[01:10:07.810 --> 01:10:13.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: The day Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught.
[01:10:15.030 --> 01:10:18.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're luring him down as a king.
[01:10:20.670 --> 01:10:27.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: But when the shadowy sun sets on the one that fired a gun.
[01:10:27.930 --> 01:10:29.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: He'll see by his grave.
[01:10:30.450 --> 01:10:32.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: On the stone that remains.
[01:10:33.350 --> 01:10:35.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Carved next to his name.
[01:10:35.390 --> 01:10:37.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: His epitaph plain.
[01:10:37.210 --> 01:10:43.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Only a pawn in their game.
[01:11:03.810 --> 01:11:06.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Stand to be the rocky hit.
[01:11:10.390 --> 01:11:10.990]  To crash.
[01:11:11.330 --> 01:11:13.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Another six-man burn.
[01:11:14.070 --> 01:11:15.330]  One in nine million.
[01:11:15.990 --> 01:11:17.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Lost to play football.
[01:11:18.430 --> 01:11:19.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hijacked helicopter.
[01:11:20.570 --> 01:11:22.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Helped him scale the wall.
[01:11:23.110 --> 01:11:24.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Took the hill from rivals.
[01:11:25.250 --> 01:11:26.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Who preyed upon poor.
[01:11:27.730 --> 01:11:29.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: He don't sell bananas.
[01:11:29.670 --> 01:11:31.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wealthy visitors want to score.
[01:11:31.710 --> 01:11:33.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Raid supreme.
[01:11:34.830 --> 01:11:36.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: The cops say he's no good.
[01:11:37.170 --> 01:11:41.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Selling drugs to feed the poor to oxy's Robin Hood.
[01:11:41.710 --> 01:11:45.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Tourists have an appetite for gander and cocaine.
[01:11:46.530 --> 01:11:48.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: He escaped just in time.
[01:11:48.930 --> 01:11:50.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Supply they need to gain.
[01:11:51.630 --> 01:11:54.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Televised love's traditional right.
[01:11:55.650 --> 01:11:59.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: The sound of music ricochets the greed all night.
[01:12:00.750 --> 01:12:02.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Heads in the sun.
[01:12:02.730 --> 01:12:04.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Slumber stars get the great green.
[01:12:05.290 --> 01:12:09.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thin dollar penthouse and people on the streets.
[01:12:10.150 --> 01:12:13.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Packed in the sun shaped by foreign cars.
[01:12:14.570 --> 01:12:14.850]  And
[01:12:23.950 --> 01:12:25.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: at the foot of the hill.
[01:12:25.990 --> 01:12:28.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: The police stand the ground.
[01:12:29.230 --> 01:12:32.210]  Veers close, throws, pounds, slumber...
[01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:41.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Slumber stars get the green.
[01:12:42.860 --> 01:12:47.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: A little pause... and people on the street.
[01:12:47.860 --> 01:12:50.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Backed in the sun shaped by...
[01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:10.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's live children, unite on the post shows.
[01:13:11.460 --> 01:13:15.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Flighted cats warning, their kids never come.
[01:13:16.100 --> 01:13:18.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: So she lies by compassion, yeah.
[01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:34.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Águeres de rapazes aparentando de 14 a 15 anos de idade.
[01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:38.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: As vítimas apresentam varias perforações de bala por todo o corpo.
[01:13:38.980 --> 01:13:40.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: ...
[01:14:34.890 --> 01:14:37.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: I will not agree to another today.
[01:14:37.270 --> 01:14:38.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: The answer is no.
[01:14:38.650 --> 01:14:47.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: The first sentence is the first sentence.
[01:14:49.790 --> 01:14:57.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this sentence is the first sentence.
[01:14:57.110 --> 01:14:58.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Everybody's gonna swing.
[01:15:04.750 --> 01:15:06.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: Junior, cut it out.
[01:15:07.490 --> 01:15:09.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: Still Junior, for the careca.
[01:15:10.070 --> 01:15:10.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Filo for the goal.
[01:15:33.110 --> 01:15:39.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah now, for the world is trouble.
[01:15:41.250 --> 01:15:47.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: And living ain't easy, the world is trouble.
[01:15:48.870 --> 01:15:51.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got to believe it.
[01:15:51.790 --> 01:15:54.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: The world is trouble.
[01:15:55.790 --> 01:15:58.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: And living ain't easy.
[01:15:58.690 --> 01:16:01.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said the world is trouble.
[01:16:03.210 --> 01:16:05.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got to believe it.
[01:16:06.770 --> 01:16:09.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Cast away or leave a spell.
[01:16:10.410 --> 01:16:13.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Don't play out here when you're laying down in hell.
[01:16:13.390 --> 01:16:16.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got your troubles and I've got mine.
[01:16:17.330 --> 01:16:20.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's work together to make things fun.
[01:16:21.270 --> 01:16:24.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Gotta be sure of all things we do.
[01:16:24.650 --> 01:16:27.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Preserve our lives, be pure and true.
[01:16:27.590 --> 01:16:31.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: The things we feel and see were meant to be.
[01:16:31.550 --> 01:16:34.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not fulfillment or prophecy.
[01:16:34.710 --> 01:16:37.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said the world is trouble.
[01:16:46.410 --> 01:16:49.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got to believe it.
[01:16:49.350 --> 01:16:51.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: The world is trouble.
[01:16:52.710 --> 01:16:52.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:16:54.090 --> 01:16:55.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: And living ain't easy.
[01:16:56.090 --> 01:16:59.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said the world is trouble.
[01:17:00.570 --> 01:17:02.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got to believe it.
[01:17:03.170 --> 01:17:03.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: The world is trouble.
[01:17:05.350 --> 01:17:08.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's ou fIing hecho.
[01:17:08.690 --> 01:17:09.010]  The world is trouble.
[01:17:09.010 --> 01:17:09.070]  Peace trouxs.
[01:17:09.070 --> 01:17:09.090]  Ooh,
[01:17:30.850 --> 01:17:30.970]  see.
[01:17:31.810 --> 01:17:35.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ooh, wish we Для выборов.
[01:17:35.710 --> 01:17:41.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the world….
[01:17:41.130 --> 01:17:48.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: More things… We're inogued....
[01:17:48.130 --> 01:17:51.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Kidnapping all over the earth.
[01:17:51.570 --> 01:17:52.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
[01:17:54.030 --> 01:17:55.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And hijacking.
[01:18:05.800 --> 01:18:07.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: The world is troubled.
[01:18:08.480 --> 01:18:11.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: And living and teasing.
[01:18:11.620 --> 01:18:14.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: The whole wide world is troubled.
[01:18:16.060 --> 01:18:18.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: You got to believe it.
[01:18:18.920 --> 01:18:21.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: The world is troubled.
[01:18:22.780 --> 01:18:25.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: And living and teasing.
[01:18:25.340 --> 01:18:29.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said the world is troubled.
[01:18:30.340 --> 01:18:32.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: You got to believe it.
[01:18:33.180 --> 01:18:33.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
[01:18:36.040 --> 01:18:39.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: The whole wide world is troubled.
[01:18:40.500 --> 01:18:43.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: The whole wide world is troubled.
[01:18:44.140 --> 01:18:48.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's all troubled, all messed up, this whole wide world of ours.
[01:18:48.240 --> 01:18:53.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyways, that's Dennis Brown here on WBAI in New York.
[01:18:53.280 --> 01:19:08.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we heard from Big Audio Dynamite with the story of the drug bandit of Brazil, which doesn't really tie into El Salvador blatantly.
[01:19:08.440 --> 01:19:13.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I think you can see a few parallels there if you look a little bit.
[01:19:14.980 --> 01:19:18.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that song, incidentally, was called Samba Drum.
[01:19:18.260 --> 01:19:21.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we heard from Bob Dylan up on top.
[01:19:23.080 --> 01:19:25.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: From the times they are a-changing.
[01:19:25.640 --> 01:19:27.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the times are always a-changing.
[01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:29.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the marvelous thing about it.
[01:19:29.660 --> 01:19:34.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what's even more marvelous is that the time is in our hands.
[01:19:35.140 --> 01:19:42.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, it sounds like a, you know, a sickening kind of saying that gets said all the time.
[01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:44.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's really true, you know.
[01:19:44.200 --> 01:19:47.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's something that we have the ultimate control over.
[01:19:48.140 --> 01:19:49.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And right now, you can be a part of things.
[01:19:50.020 --> 01:19:53.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can be a part of things at this very moment in time.
[01:19:53.820 --> 01:19:59.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: By simply calling us, 279-3400, and spouting your various rhetoric on the air.
[01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:01.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there will be no retributions, and that's a promise.
[01:20:03.120 --> 01:20:06.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in the bigger sense, be a part of things on Saturday.
[01:20:07.160 --> 01:20:10.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: When there will be a demonstration in New York.
[01:20:11.580 --> 01:20:13.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you don't have to be a communist to go.
[01:20:13.460 --> 01:20:14.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't have to be a socialist to go.
[01:20:14.980 --> 01:20:21.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't have to be anything to go except a human being that thinks enough is enough.
[01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:23.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or even a human being that just wants to learn.
[01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:28.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And perhaps decide later after talking to a lot of people.
[01:20:29.140 --> 01:20:32.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it's an educational experience.
[01:20:32.040 --> 01:20:34.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what life is supposed to be about.
[01:20:34.640 --> 01:20:37.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's at least what I read in the instructions.
[01:20:37.520 --> 01:20:38.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:20:38.680 --> 01:20:40.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening and good morning.
[01:20:40.140 --> 01:20:57.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you don't address the situation at WBAI, where a station manager is paid a salary to do a job, and then is not at the station because she's in Asia, Southern Asia, doing a thesis.
[01:20:57.280 --> 01:20:58.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hello?
[01:20:59.220 --> 01:20:59.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hello?
[01:20:59.300 --> 01:21:18.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you don't address this as a fundamental issue of American democracy at home, or your worthwhile conversation about distant things, which aren't so distant, are not valid, are not worthwhile.
[01:21:18.500 --> 01:21:30.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because the thing is, you're allowing an insidious disease to rage and desecrate this very wonderful institution.
[01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:32.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, Rosemary Reed has paid her salary.
[01:21:32.480 --> 01:21:34.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: One, she doesn't listen.
[01:21:34.540 --> 01:21:36.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: She doesn't get tapes of what's going on.
[01:21:36.900 --> 01:21:48.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: The situations that have occurred to me as a result of my concern for freedom of speech, where the price, which was a fact, was asked to be denied to the public.
[01:21:48.840 --> 01:22:04.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: Even Samori Marksman, a wonderful person, I like him very much, says, oh, we're not going to mention the price of this thing, and then we're also not going to tape record any material from this discussion of Germany, because it's that way.
[01:22:05.380 --> 01:22:07.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's simply that way, he said.
[01:22:07.500 --> 01:22:09.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I'm supposed to buy this?
[01:22:09.440 --> 01:22:11.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: I love radio where you can just fade people away.
[01:22:12.040 --> 01:22:13.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I wish life was like that.
[01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:16.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, anyway...
[01:22:16.720 --> 01:22:17.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, thank you.
[01:22:17.780 --> 01:22:19.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: He closed the door on the way out, too.
[01:22:19.180 --> 01:22:22.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know what's going on out there, folks, but please try to stick to the subject.
[01:22:22.840 --> 01:22:24.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we're talking about El Salvador.
[01:22:24.840 --> 01:22:25.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're talking about world events.
[01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:27.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't want to hear about WBAI events, you know?
[01:22:28.280 --> 01:22:30.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, okay, it's a radio station.
[01:22:30.180 --> 01:22:36.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have all kinds of things going on here, but I don't know about that right now, and I don't want to get involved in that right now.
[01:22:36.360 --> 01:22:42.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: I want to talk about the issue at hand, and let's stop bickering about these minor little things.
[01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:44.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Prices of books, for God's sake.
[01:22:46.480 --> 01:22:47.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:49.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess I should have said it before.
[01:22:49.140 --> 01:22:50.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Call up if you have something to say.
[01:22:50.660 --> 01:22:50.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey.
[01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:52.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:22:52.800 --> 01:22:53.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning, rather.
[01:22:53.960 --> 01:22:54.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: How are you?
[01:22:54.720 --> 01:22:55.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:22:55.720 --> 01:22:57.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I've been a communist for a long time.
[01:22:57.700 --> 01:22:57.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[01:22:58.100 --> 01:22:58.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was about 15.
[01:22:59.240 --> 01:23:00.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm like 28 now.
[01:23:00.660 --> 01:23:11.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: And to me, the events in Eastern Europe are consistent with Marxist thesis of the coming dictatorship of the proletariat and the withering of the state, you know?
[01:23:11.280 --> 01:23:13.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: So I'm not surprised when I watch those things.
[01:23:13.120 --> 01:23:21.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: I get rather bored after a while, because I just see the historical program working itself out, which the American media is apparently oblivious to.
[01:23:21.400 --> 01:23:22.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is that historical program?
[01:23:22.600 --> 01:23:29.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: The historical program of Marxist thesis of the coming dictatorship of the proletariat after a period of socialism.
[01:23:29.740 --> 01:23:30.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:23:30.400 --> 01:23:38.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I know that, but can you translate that into, you know, common talk here so that, what does that specifically mean in the 20th century?
[01:23:38.800 --> 01:24:07.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Specifically, it means that the events that we see from Poland to Czechoslovakia are the actual facts of Marx's predictions, which he wrote in the Communist Manifestos and various other texts, which, if people care to read, they will more or less get world events of the future written at some point in the late 19th century and thereabouts.
[01:24:07.840 --> 01:24:28.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: And also, I guess I wanted to say that I wanted to project further into the United States, and I wanted to ask your feeling about the idea of, in the coming decade, you know, a mass consensus in the United States to overthrow the government, taking into account historical trends.
[01:24:28.640 --> 01:24:44.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, do you feel that, you know, given that kind of event, there would be a consequent backlash to a super-authoritarianism which is only hinted at now by extreme conservatism?
[01:24:44.080 --> 01:24:49.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the reason why I say these things is because when I started listening to you, two phrases occurred to me.
[01:24:49.520 --> 01:24:52.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: One was the old line that history repeats itself.
[01:24:53.280 --> 01:25:01.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the second was the Marxist line that those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.
[01:25:01.680 --> 01:25:08.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: So if we learn our history, we don't have to repeat it, but we would then be in a position to know what was coming.
[01:25:09.120 --> 01:25:11.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, I think there's a key there.
[01:25:11.100 --> 01:25:26.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think that if we don't take an active interest in the past and if we don't somehow link with the past, either through reading, which is something that certainly has gone down the tubes over the last couple of decades in this country, or by studying history,
[01:25:26.580 --> 01:25:37.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: by seeing the parallels, by seeing how going into one particular episode in history is very similar to what we're doing in the present and how, you know, things could repeat themselves.
[01:25:37.720 --> 01:25:45.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we don't do that, then, in fact, we are doomed to go through the same thing over and over again.
[01:25:45.600 --> 01:25:46.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'll say this.
[01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:52.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's fascinating to watch the unfolding events overseas.
[01:25:53.520 --> 01:26:03.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: But at the same time, it's disturbing because we're sort of backing away from the precipice of World War III, of nuclear annihilation and everything like that.
[01:26:04.280 --> 01:26:04.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: But...
[01:26:04.840 --> 01:26:05.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's depressing?
[01:26:05.780 --> 01:26:07.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, that's not depressing at all.
[01:26:07.440 --> 01:26:16.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: But what's depressing is, or, you know, worthy of some concern is the fact that we're also backing away from what brought us there in the first place.
[01:26:17.080 --> 01:26:29.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm just wondering, maybe in 20 years when we've forgotten the danger, the fear of living in the nuclear age, some minor thing could spark it all over again.
[01:26:29.280 --> 01:26:35.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'll just jump into it perhaps even more quickly without realizing what it was that we learned.
[01:26:35.500 --> 01:26:47.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we don't keep up with the past... In other words, if the future generations are as disinterested in us as we are in the past generations, what will they learn from this?
[01:26:47.240 --> 01:26:48.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Absolutely nothing.
[01:26:48.300 --> 01:26:49.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we won't have accomplished anything.
[01:26:50.040 --> 01:26:52.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's why we can't break that link with the past, you see.
[01:26:52.500 --> 01:27:01.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, what strikes me as very interesting is that, not very long ago, I was rummaging through an older friend's filing cabinet, and I came across...
[01:27:01.500 --> 01:27:03.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: With that person's permission, I hope.
[01:27:03.200 --> 01:27:05.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: ...a political manifesto of the Weather Underground.
[01:27:05.660 --> 01:27:05.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[01:27:06.180 --> 01:27:08.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I pulled it out and immediately became engrossed.
[01:27:09.020 --> 01:27:12.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it was like an alien entity from outer space.
[01:27:12.320 --> 01:27:18.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: To my friends, to people that I brought the subject up to, they were like, what are you talking about?
[01:27:18.440 --> 01:27:21.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: They thought I was talking about something on cable or anything.
[01:27:21.660 --> 01:27:24.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: They had no conception of the Weather Underground.
[01:27:24.320 --> 01:27:25.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Weather Channel, right?
[01:27:25.600 --> 01:27:44.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if I gorge myself on that kind of information, and people activate their memory of not only the 60s, but, you know, of history, European history or world history, to whatever distorted sources they can get it through, they will, you know, there will be a community of souls,
[01:27:44.700 --> 01:27:45.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: as I like to call it.
[01:27:46.420 --> 01:27:57.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that may, you know, the soulless ones are the ones that I would fear, because they're the ones who would be in power, but they're also the ones who would become disempowered.
[01:27:57.200 --> 01:28:09.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think their fear would paralyze them, but I'm not sure if it would paralyze them to forgive, or whether it would paralyze them to react.
[01:28:10.200 --> 01:28:23.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if, say, an old man in the White House is weak, and a young man is strong, that old man will push his red button because that is the only strength that he has against the moral weight of the young man.
[01:28:23.960 --> 01:28:29.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if the old man is impotent, perhaps that would also, you know, there's all kinds of things there.
[01:28:29.820 --> 01:28:30.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you push the red button, too.
[01:28:31.060 --> 01:28:31.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:28:31.160 --> 01:28:32.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you have to be a madman.
[01:28:32.840 --> 01:28:34.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's not inconceivable, you see.
[01:28:34.480 --> 01:28:48.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: But also, I don't know if one person has that much power, the way things are now, but certainly, you know, it's dangerous to give that much power to even, you know, twelve people, however many.
[01:28:48.480 --> 01:28:53.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: The person, the power of the media, you can give an individual an enormous degree of power.
[01:28:54.060 --> 01:28:54.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sure.
[01:28:54.420 --> 01:28:58.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, through the media, you can give somebody more power than they ever would have, ordinarily, definitely.
[01:28:59.320 --> 01:29:07.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: The media can more or less serve as a shield in itself, a suit of armor against public opinion, or a way to sway public opinion.
[01:29:07.740 --> 01:29:11.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I mean, the media itself is untouchable.
[01:29:11.580 --> 01:29:21.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, you know, people cannot walk up to, I'm not going to pick on anybody in particular, but, you know, a TV anchorman, and tell him what they think.
[01:29:21.460 --> 01:29:28.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, they can't go up to a radio station, except for maybe WBAI, and, you know, say what's on their minds.
[01:29:29.040 --> 01:29:29.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's untouchable.
[01:29:29.920 --> 01:29:31.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you can't reach it.
[01:29:31.520 --> 01:29:33.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just, it speaks down to you, for the most part.
[01:29:35.240 --> 01:29:36.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's sad.
[01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:37.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, the average person...
[01:29:38.260 --> 01:29:41.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, I'll tell you, to be honest, I don't know very many average people.
[01:29:41.200 --> 01:29:45.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Most of the people that I know are heavily into this kind of thing, but I'm just...
[01:29:45.540 --> 01:29:52.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I imagine a mob of millions of people out there that have no access to any of this stuff.
[01:29:52.360 --> 01:29:58.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they, you know, they just read the paper, they read what's being said to them, but they don't talk back.
[01:29:58.560 --> 01:29:59.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't say anything back.
[01:29:59.620 --> 01:30:14.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's so sad, that's so scary, because there's nothing more harmful than a public that doesn't react, that just sort of the silent majority, I guess, is that old phrase.
[01:30:15.020 --> 01:30:20.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, there is some harm in a public that merely reacts as well, you know, on the other hand.
[01:30:21.160 --> 01:30:21.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: In what way?
[01:30:21.800 --> 01:30:23.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Like, what they call, yeah, the silent majority.
[01:30:23.740 --> 01:30:29.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: You have to... or just holding it in, not saying anything, just keeping your eyes closed and hoping that it all goes away.
[01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:33.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: After a while, you have nothing left but your reaction.
[01:30:33.640 --> 01:30:37.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or not even hoping that it'll go away, just ignoring it altogether and not even knowing it's there.
[01:30:38.380 --> 01:30:38.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[01:30:39.740 --> 01:30:42.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Then I guess you just sort of step in it as you go along.
[01:30:42.680 --> 01:30:43.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, gee.
[01:30:44.420 --> 01:30:47.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, your show is... I must be honest with you, though.
[01:30:54.910 --> 01:30:56.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: That show puts me to sleep.
[01:30:57.370 --> 01:30:57.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well...
[01:30:58.310 --> 01:31:00.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: But when I listen to you, it's stimulating.
[01:31:00.090 --> 01:31:10.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hear you have an open mind, and you're talking about the world, and you're willing to let other people who are thinking along completely different tracks just come in, and, you know, you go into where they're at.
[01:31:10.430 --> 01:31:11.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's very beautiful.
[01:31:11.610 --> 01:31:12.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's free speech.
[01:31:12.690 --> 01:31:16.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, there's a time and a place for dangerous ideas.
[01:31:17.070 --> 01:31:19.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: The time is until 3.30, and the place is WBAI.
[01:31:20.990 --> 01:31:22.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: After you will come some more free thought.
[01:31:23.130 --> 01:31:23.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, certainly.
[01:31:23.770 --> 01:31:27.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, you know, 24 hours a day we try to present things here.
[01:31:27.430 --> 01:31:28.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And again, it's not for everyone.
[01:31:28.530 --> 01:31:29.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure I'm putting some people to sleep.
[01:31:30.470 --> 01:31:37.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, I'm sure I'm making some people bang their heads against the wall, and other people just, you know, shout out in all kinds of strange tongues.
[01:31:38.310 --> 01:31:39.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that's what it's all about, folks.
[01:31:39.950 --> 01:31:41.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's not just WBAI.
[01:31:42.030 --> 01:31:42.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's life.
[01:31:42.910 --> 01:31:43.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's democracy.
[01:31:43.910 --> 01:31:46.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what it's like to be a human being.
[01:31:46.350 --> 01:31:48.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, we don't do it enough.
[01:31:48.190 --> 01:31:48.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're right.
[01:31:49.030 --> 01:31:49.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the point I'm trying to make.
[01:31:49.850 --> 01:31:50.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's absolutely right.
[01:31:50.490 --> 01:31:50.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay?
[01:31:51.030 --> 01:31:51.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:31:51.450 --> 01:31:52.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks very much for calling.
[01:31:52.530 --> 01:31:52.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: No problem.
[01:31:53.150 --> 01:31:53.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Have a good day.
[01:31:53.830 --> 01:31:54.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: You too.
[01:31:54.910 --> 01:31:57.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[01:31:57.150 --> 01:31:58.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:31:58.590 --> 01:32:00.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm filling in for Tom Whisker.
[01:32:00.250 --> 01:32:02.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'll be here for about another hour or so.
[01:32:02.130 --> 01:32:04.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'll be back again next week, and the week after that, too.
[01:32:05.970 --> 01:32:07.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[01:32:07.810 --> 01:32:09.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're talking about U.S.
[01:32:09.730 --> 01:32:10.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: policy in El Salvador.
[01:32:11.250 --> 01:32:21.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'd like to know more about the demonstration on Saturday, if folks are planning to go to that, if they have any further information on it, or other phone numbers, you know, whatever.
[01:32:21.210 --> 01:32:23.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whatever you can pass along to help out.
[01:32:23.430 --> 01:32:29.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, you know, it would be so great to see 100,000 people march in the streets of New York.
[01:32:29.770 --> 01:32:32.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, like I said before, why stop there?
[01:32:33.230 --> 01:32:33.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[01:32:34.050 --> 01:32:35.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: We march on Saturday.
[01:32:36.050 --> 01:32:38.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we wake up on Sunday and say, has anything changed?
[01:32:38.910 --> 01:32:39.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: No?
[01:32:39.330 --> 01:32:39.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:32:39.730 --> 01:32:40.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Back onto the streets.
[01:32:40.970 --> 01:32:41.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we do it again.
[01:32:42.150 --> 01:32:43.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then we do it on Monday.
[01:32:43.470 --> 01:32:44.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we miss work.
[01:32:44.550 --> 01:32:45.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who cares?
[01:32:45.210 --> 01:32:46.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or we miss an hour of work.
[01:32:47.310 --> 01:32:47.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[01:32:48.010 --> 01:32:51.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is being fired the worst thing in the world to happen?
[01:32:52.850 --> 01:33:02.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or is the knowledge that your inaction is responsible for things like what happened two weeks ago with six priests murdered?
[01:33:03.830 --> 01:33:07.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, you know, like I said, the U.S.
[01:33:07.150 --> 01:33:09.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: government did not go in there and murder six priests.
[01:33:09.470 --> 01:33:10.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not going to say that.
[01:33:11.930 --> 01:33:13.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it was the actions.
[01:33:13.690 --> 01:33:14.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: We set it up.
[01:33:15.130 --> 01:33:17.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: We set it up so that it could happen.
[01:33:17.970 --> 01:33:22.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Had this policy not been in effect, that would not have happened.
[01:33:22.610 --> 01:33:24.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Something else might have happened, certainly.
[01:33:24.090 --> 01:33:24.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't know.
[01:33:25.290 --> 01:33:34.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I'm saying, what is wrong with simply allowing events in a foreign country to take place?
[01:33:34.890 --> 01:33:42.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: In other words, if the rebels want to take over the country, and the rebels are able to take over the country, let them take over the country.
[01:33:42.990 --> 01:33:54.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if the people are unhappy with what's going on, then they'll march in the streets, and they'll get that government out, like they did in Eastern Europe.
[01:33:56.410 --> 01:33:59.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the only way you can possibly do something like that.
[01:33:59.450 --> 01:34:05.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: You cannot go into a country and simply instill what you think the people there want.
[01:34:06.390 --> 01:34:08.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because invariably, it's not what they want.
[01:34:09.250 --> 01:34:11.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: They want to be able to decide things for themselves.
[01:34:12.710 --> 01:34:22.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: And right now, I think the majority of people in El Salvador just want to be left alone for the moment, and to work out their own problems.
[01:34:24.050 --> 01:34:24.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[01:34:25.370 --> 01:34:30.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I may be wrong, but that's the way I feel, and I think we need to talk about it some more.
[01:34:32.290 --> 01:34:33.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[01:34:33.410 --> 01:34:34.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[01:34:34.670 --> 01:34:34.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hello.
[01:34:35.450 --> 01:34:36.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, go ahead.
[01:34:36.050 --> 01:34:37.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[01:34:37.330 --> 01:34:41.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: The situation in El Salvador is simply irrational.
[01:34:41.850 --> 01:34:45.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are no rational grounds for what is going on there.
[01:34:46.670 --> 01:35:03.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: The same position that we take towards Cuba, that they're the worst enemy that we have, makes exactly the same no kind of sense when you consider that the capitalists, us, are doing big business with all the so-called communists around the world.
[01:35:03.590 --> 01:35:26.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: So what on earth is the logic for considering this tiny little Nicaragua, which has, what is it, one escalator in the whole country, and Cuba, which is terribly impoverished, what is the reason for considering them mortal enemies when we're doing business with huge communist neighbors in Europe,
[01:35:26.590 --> 01:35:27.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: in Asia?
[01:35:27.270 --> 01:35:29.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's the age-old thing, U.S.
[01:35:30.010 --> 01:35:30.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: interests, you know?
[01:35:30.750 --> 01:35:32.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I say, to hell with U.S.
[01:35:32.570 --> 01:35:32.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: interests.
[01:35:32.910 --> 01:35:37.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our national interests belong here in the nation, where we need them, you know?
[01:35:37.310 --> 01:35:38.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, what are the U.S.
[01:35:38.570 --> 01:35:38.910]  interests?
[01:35:39.550 --> 01:35:45.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: What would hurt us by making friends with Cuba and Nicaragua?
[01:35:45.230 --> 01:35:46.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: What would we lose?
[01:35:46.630 --> 01:35:49.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: We would gain an enormous trading partner again.
[01:35:49.690 --> 01:35:58.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: Cuba was a very big trading partner of the United States as far as medicines, cloth, food, I mean, you name it, which are now embargoed, as you know.
[01:35:59.690 --> 01:36:01.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: We would gain enormously.
[01:36:01.730 --> 01:36:03.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's there to lose from this?
[01:36:03.610 --> 01:36:07.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, it makes me think that it's just some terrible mind warp.
[01:36:08.130 --> 01:36:21.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's some, you know, in Foggy Bottom in the State Department, there's some terrible ancient grudge going on that has to be settled by this kind of vendetta, because practically it makes no sense at all.
[01:36:21.470 --> 01:36:27.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, you know, I don't want to oversimplify this, but it's, you can draw parallels to the way human beings react among themselves.
[01:36:28.350 --> 01:36:32.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, you have somebody just, you know, stop talking to you for no particular reason.
[01:36:33.110 --> 01:36:36.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: They think you're a bad person, and they won't communicate with you.
[01:36:36.770 --> 01:36:47.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, you may very well be a bad person, but the fact that you stop communicating and spread all these vicious rumors and lies and things like that certainly doesn't help the situation at all.
[01:36:47.150 --> 01:36:49.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: And to a degree, that's what the U.S.
[01:36:49.870 --> 01:36:50.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: government is doing.
[01:36:50.650 --> 01:36:50.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: The U.S.
[01:36:51.130 --> 01:36:57.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: government is like this disgruntled aunt-in-law that didn't get the right seat at a wedding two years ago.
[01:36:58.030 --> 01:37:01.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's kind of a happy way of looking at it.
[01:37:01.210 --> 01:37:07.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: In truth, thousands of innocent civilians are being killed as a result of this enmity.
[01:37:07.470 --> 01:37:16.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, if it was just a matter of, well, we've got this rotten attitude towards them, we don't like the way they have a mole on their cheek, or we don't like the way they look, that would be one thing.
[01:37:17.150 --> 01:37:19.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: But we are dangerous to have as an enemy.
[01:37:19.870 --> 01:37:20.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course.
[01:37:20.350 --> 01:37:22.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: The United States is an enemy of someone.
[01:37:22.310 --> 01:37:25.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, they literally poison the land and the people forever.
[01:37:25.770 --> 01:37:32.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Agent Orange in Vietnam, if you'd like, all the people that are dying in El Salvador and in Nicaragua.
[01:37:32.430 --> 01:37:33.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thousands of children!
[01:37:34.730 --> 01:37:36.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, even with the...
[01:37:36.290 --> 01:37:52.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: They've talked in the United Nations about the environmental ruin of El Salvador because of what we're doing with the militia that we have, that we're giving to the army, sorry, with the ammunition we're giving.
[01:37:52.350 --> 01:37:57.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're poisoning the water and the land, cutting down the forest that the guerrillas can't hide.
[01:37:58.310 --> 01:38:06.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, you know, it isn't just a nice case of the McCoy, what is it, the McCoys and the Hatfields, or the old enemies.
[01:38:06.710 --> 01:38:06.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[01:38:07.090 --> 01:38:08.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is dangerous stuff!
[01:38:08.550 --> 01:38:15.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, when nations play this game, yes, a lot of people die, and it's sick, it really is.
[01:38:15.330 --> 01:38:15.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's sick.
[01:38:16.110 --> 01:38:17.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're a part of the sickness.
[01:38:17.410 --> 01:38:28.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I just wish that the press wasn't so in the government's pocket that they would ask more honest questions, that they wouldn't accept government handouts as news.
[01:38:28.390 --> 01:38:28.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[01:38:29.090 --> 01:38:34.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: You see, it's, yeah, we can blame the press, we can blame the government, but in the end, it's us.
[01:38:34.770 --> 01:38:36.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have to make the change.
[01:38:36.370 --> 01:38:38.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, we can affect the press.
[01:38:38.370 --> 01:38:39.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not easy.
[01:38:39.450 --> 01:38:45.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got to change their whole way of looking at things and what is, you know, what is an important news story and all that.
[01:38:45.150 --> 01:38:51.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, you know, we can do it by being out there every day and making sure they don't forget about this.
[01:39:06.130 --> 01:39:06.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Absolutely.
[01:39:06.530 --> 01:39:07.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: But she didn't know what to do.
[01:39:07.450 --> 01:39:10.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: She's not the type that goes to demonstrations, she said, or marches.
[01:39:10.590 --> 01:39:12.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then something came to her.
[01:39:12.450 --> 01:39:21.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: She said she was working in a barn, and she decided to put signboards on herself saying, I cannot stand what the U.S.
[01:39:21.170 --> 01:39:23.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: government is doing in El Salvador.
[01:39:23.330 --> 01:39:29.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: As an American, I resent this, I hate it, and I oppose it in every possible way.
[01:39:29.670 --> 01:39:36.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: She signed her name, and she came down to the village and marched around there, and then got some more courage and walked around New York.
[01:39:37.010 --> 01:39:39.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: And she said it was just wonderful.
[01:39:39.010 --> 01:39:40.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: She did that, I think, for a few days.
[01:39:41.050 --> 01:39:46.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: So she said everyone can find their own way to make a constant statement, you know, if something...
[01:39:46.610 --> 01:39:47.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's great.
[01:39:47.190 --> 01:39:48.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: ...they just can't stand it.
[01:39:48.270 --> 01:39:49.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: I thought that was wonderful.
[01:39:49.510 --> 01:39:50.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's amazing.
[01:39:50.270 --> 01:39:58.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you can find that thing, whether it's writing a letter or marching down the street or just calling up your friend and saying, you know, isn't this awful?
[01:39:58.930 --> 01:39:59.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: What can we do about it?
[01:40:00.030 --> 01:40:01.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, just get the dialogue going.
[01:40:01.950 --> 01:40:02.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: The box out, yes.
[01:40:02.810 --> 01:40:04.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because we're better than this, you know.
[01:40:04.430 --> 01:40:09.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're not the kind of people that just sit back and say, you know, let everything happen.
[01:40:09.030 --> 01:40:10.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't care about other people.
[01:40:10.350 --> 01:40:10.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: We do.
[01:40:11.010 --> 01:40:11.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[01:40:11.490 --> 01:40:12.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're a warm society, you know.
[01:40:13.270 --> 01:40:13.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's...
[01:40:13.670 --> 01:40:14.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: We just...
[01:40:14.390 --> 01:40:16.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't investigate as much as we should.
[01:40:16.470 --> 01:40:17.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're not encouraged to.
[01:40:17.550 --> 01:40:18.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, we're not.
[01:40:18.150 --> 01:40:18.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, we're not.
[01:40:18.710 --> 01:40:20.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've got blankets thrown over us.
[01:40:20.730 --> 01:40:20.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[01:40:21.010 --> 01:40:23.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, you know, an educated public is a dangerous thing.
[01:40:24.010 --> 01:40:24.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[01:40:24.370 --> 01:40:27.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Keep them on drugs and keep them quiet and keep them out of the voting.
[01:40:27.470 --> 01:40:27.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[01:40:27.770 --> 01:40:28.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: Voting boots and, you know.
[01:40:29.170 --> 01:40:30.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: I have two more things to suggest.
[01:40:31.290 --> 01:40:33.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I like your program very much.
[01:40:34.550 --> 01:40:40.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think that we should stop propagating this myth, this old cliche that America is the richest country in the world.
[01:40:41.290 --> 01:40:45.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: First of all, statistically, it's not true, even in terms of just infant mortality.
[01:40:45.290 --> 01:40:46.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're 17th.
[01:40:46.150 --> 01:40:49.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Cuba's ahead of us in having a lower infant mortality.
[01:40:50.070 --> 01:41:00.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, you know, as far as homelessness goes and infrastructure crumbling, illiteracy growing, all these things, we're really not the richest country in the world by any means.
[01:41:00.830 --> 01:41:09.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think many people who've lived in Europe and certainly the Scandinavian countries would say that they have a much finer standard of living and certainly a much better quality of life.
[01:41:09.850 --> 01:41:18.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: If we consider richness just to be our way, our extravagance in wasting things, that way perhaps we're richest.
[01:41:19.150 --> 01:41:21.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: But not in any of the ways that really count.
[01:41:22.310 --> 01:41:28.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so I think as media people, you really should be very careful in, you know, trying to tone this down.
[01:41:28.890 --> 01:41:30.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're not the richest country in the world.
[01:41:30.950 --> 01:41:45.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the other thing I wanted to ask you is, what's always confused me is why on a Pacifica station, the very name Pacifica, is there a program called Weaponry with Tom Whiskers?
[01:41:46.010 --> 01:41:51.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's part of our ongoing philosophy here that education is important.
[01:41:52.210 --> 01:41:58.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And whether it's education about the military or education about, you know, about foreign cultures, it's real.
[01:41:59.270 --> 01:42:00.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Weaponry is something that is there.
[01:42:01.370 --> 01:42:04.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: And where else do you learn about it?
[01:42:04.710 --> 01:42:06.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to know what is really happening.
[01:42:07.510 --> 01:42:19.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, you know, it's not a program where we talk about how great the US, you know, Defense Department is and how we can, you know, turn Lebanon into an ashtray and all that kind of thing.
[01:42:20.670 --> 01:42:29.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: You don't think that it sort of encourages the love of military lore by having a program like this?
[01:42:29.730 --> 01:42:33.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I don't think not having a program like this would discourage it.
[01:42:33.550 --> 01:42:34.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's put it that way.
[01:42:34.550 --> 01:42:37.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think having a program like that wakes some people up.
[01:42:37.530 --> 01:42:41.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it tells people, wow, you know, I had no idea.
[01:42:41.490 --> 01:42:44.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it gives you specifics that you never get anywhere else.
[01:42:44.890 --> 01:42:48.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think it's very important to have that available if you want it.
[01:42:49.790 --> 01:42:55.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, if you could address this one other thing that I mentioned about America being the richest country in the world.
[01:42:55.950 --> 01:42:57.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe in the 50s we were.
[01:42:57.910 --> 01:43:00.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: But do you really think that's the case now?
[01:43:00.370 --> 01:43:02.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, we have more TV channels.
[01:43:03.530 --> 01:43:06.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't have more newspapers, which is an interesting thing.
[01:43:07.510 --> 01:43:08.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got a lot of space.
[01:43:10.070 --> 01:43:10.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Space meaning?
[01:43:11.130 --> 01:43:13.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, wide open space, that kind of thing.
[01:43:14.810 --> 01:43:15.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let's see.
[01:43:15.810 --> 01:43:16.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: How are we rich?
[01:43:16.770 --> 01:43:18.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got lots of fast food joints.
[01:43:20.210 --> 01:43:21.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know...
[01:43:21.170 --> 01:43:23.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: We also have the highest cancer rates in the world.
[01:43:23.330 --> 01:43:24.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Highest cancer rates.
[01:43:24.350 --> 01:43:25.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's bad, though.
[01:43:25.710 --> 01:43:31.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Something like, I believe the statistic is now 88% of our water is polluted.
[01:43:31.670 --> 01:43:32.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: There is no safe.
[01:43:32.670 --> 01:43:36.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can't go to a nice crystal stream and drink water from it anymore.
[01:43:36.570 --> 01:43:39.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, so that's progress then.
[01:43:39.450 --> 01:43:43.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we're the most advanced nation as far as technology goes.
[01:43:43.570 --> 01:43:43.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: You've just proven that.
[01:43:43.850 --> 01:43:45.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what you mean by that.
[01:43:45.290 --> 01:43:50.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, by having an 88% pollution rate in the water, that proves how advanced we are.
[01:43:52.230 --> 01:43:55.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, you know, rich is a very relative term.
[01:43:55.650 --> 01:44:02.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, you could even come up with something and say this proves that we're rich and somebody else would say, my God, that proves we're poor.
[01:44:02.710 --> 01:44:03.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, that's the worst thing.
[01:44:03.850 --> 01:44:05.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can't judge it monetarily.
[01:44:05.670 --> 01:44:07.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can't judge it idealistically.
[01:44:07.230 --> 01:44:10.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can't judge it, you know, by the landscape or anything.
[01:44:10.990 --> 01:44:26.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, there are things, for example, that the UN judges a country's wealth by how many live births per 100,000 or per 1,000, how much what's the literacy rate, how many people share a certain amount of space.
[01:44:27.190 --> 01:44:29.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are certain statistics to go by.
[01:44:29.390 --> 01:44:33.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I think apart from all of that, you have to judge quality of life.
[01:44:34.010 --> 01:44:37.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I don't know, have you lived in Europe or in Scandinavian countries?
[01:44:37.710 --> 01:44:41.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I wandered around Europe for about six weeks this summer.
[01:44:41.490 --> 01:44:46.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, we have advantages in some ways, they have advantages in other ways.
[01:44:47.230 --> 01:44:50.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think they're closer to reality.
[01:44:51.410 --> 01:44:56.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you can talk about things you can criticize without offending.
[01:44:57.270 --> 01:44:59.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, and that's the first step, I think.
[01:45:01.430 --> 01:45:06.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, no, we're not a people given to good political debates.
[01:45:06.030 --> 01:45:08.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, I can't understand why, you know.
[01:45:08.150 --> 01:45:11.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we're the bastion of democracy, as we keep saying we are, why is that so?
[01:45:12.030 --> 01:45:13.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: It just isn't.
[01:45:13.150 --> 01:45:29.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I've seen people in seemingly intelligent arguments suddenly get, hey, you little pink there, fella, you know, and they start calling names if someone's presenting a rational argument for why are there poor people and can't we do something about it.
[01:45:29.250 --> 01:45:29.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right, well...
[01:45:29.710 --> 01:45:31.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: That old anti-communist reflex comes back.
[01:45:31.850 --> 01:45:43.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think if you, you know, explain it in this way, when that kind of talk starts, that means that the person has run out of arguments and can't figure out any kind of comeback.
[01:45:44.050 --> 01:45:44.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's exactly right.
[01:45:44.250 --> 01:45:52.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: So they have to resort to, you know, to name calling and accusing the person of being a communist or something like that, which tells you something about the state of these problems.
[01:45:53.150 --> 01:45:55.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, thanks very much for calling and for bringing those things up.
[01:45:55.770 --> 01:45:58.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Those are very pertinent points.
[01:45:58.530 --> 01:46:00.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[01:46:05.680 --> 01:46:07.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, um, interesting.
[01:46:08.260 --> 01:46:11.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: I would like to play one song and then go right back to the phones.
[01:46:11.940 --> 01:46:17.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, this one song is fascinating for this particular reason.
[01:46:17.280 --> 01:46:19.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: What this last caller just brought up.
[01:46:19.820 --> 01:46:21.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are we the richest country in the world?
[01:46:22.000 --> 01:46:23.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do we have the highest standard of living?
[01:46:24.160 --> 01:46:27.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, is America what America says it's supposed to be?
[01:46:28.540 --> 01:46:38.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, when you look at the news, when you look at what's happening in the rest of the world and what's not happening here, what we're doing in other parts of, of, of, you know, the, the globe.
[01:46:38.500 --> 01:46:52.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, when you look at things like librarians being investigated for, for defending free speech, uh, when you look at all the contradictions, you know, it's, it starts hitting you and you start saying, well, maybe this isn't the place that I thought it was.
[01:46:52.980 --> 01:46:54.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe it's changing.
[01:46:54.660 --> 01:46:58.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe, you know, there's a whole other way of looking at this country.
[01:47:00.440 --> 01:47:02.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, it's, it's kind of disturbing.
[01:47:02.740 --> 01:47:05.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Especially if you think that, uh, there's, there's nothing we can do about it.
[01:47:05.840 --> 01:47:08.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you think that, uh, you know, it's a, it's a lost cause.
[01:47:08.920 --> 01:47:14.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: But also, it makes you, uh, it makes you think.
[01:47:14.420 --> 01:47:17.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, just think about where you stand in relation to it all.
[01:47:17.820 --> 01:47:22.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're a hypocrite, you know, if, uh, if you're completely powerless.
[01:47:22.060 --> 01:47:27.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you've been spouting all this, uh, all this rhetoric, all this, uh, you know, these last few years.
[01:47:29.700 --> 01:47:31.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's something to think about.
[01:47:31.440 --> 01:47:37.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, the reason I'm going to play this song here, it's a song by the Beatles and guaranteed it was not written with this in mind.
[01:47:37.620 --> 01:47:44.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, I'd like you to listen to this song and think about America in a different sense.
[01:47:51.600 --> 01:47:54.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you.
[01:47:54.600 --> 01:47:56.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where did you go?
[01:47:57.020 --> 01:47:59.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought I knew you.
[01:48:00.200 --> 01:48:01.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: What did I know?
[01:48:02.780 --> 01:48:07.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't look different, but you have changed.
[01:48:08.340 --> 01:48:10.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you.
[01:48:11.360 --> 01:48:12.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: You love the same.
[01:48:15.180 --> 01:48:18.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Your lips are moving.
[01:48:18.980 --> 01:48:20.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Your lips are moving.
[01:48:20.120 --> 01:48:21.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cannot hear.
[01:48:21.880 --> 01:48:24.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Your voice is soothing.
[01:48:25.000 --> 01:48:26.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the words are clear.
[01:48:27.840 --> 01:48:29.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't sound different.
[01:48:29.880 --> 01:48:32.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've learned the games.
[01:48:33.320 --> 01:48:35.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you.
[01:48:36.000 --> 01:48:36.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you.
[01:48:36.680 --> 01:48:37.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're not the same.
[01:48:42.700 --> 01:48:46.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why, tell me, why did you not treat me right?
[01:48:46.860 --> 01:48:53.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Love has a nasty habit of disappearing low-light.
[01:48:54.220 --> 01:48:56.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're thinking of me.
[01:48:56.580 --> 01:48:59.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: The same old way.
[01:48:59.560 --> 01:49:02.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: You were above me.
[01:49:02.660 --> 01:49:04.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: But not today.
[01:49:04.160 --> 01:49:10.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: The only difference is you're down there.
[01:49:10.980 --> 01:49:13.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you,
[01:49:19.290 --> 01:49:20.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: and you'll take me right.
[01:49:22.390 --> 01:49:27.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Love has a last together, disappearing all night.
[01:49:28.210 --> 01:49:32.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you, where did you go?
[01:49:33.390 --> 01:49:38.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought I knew you, what did I know?
[01:49:39.290 --> 01:49:44.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't look different, but you have changed.
[01:49:44.990 --> 01:49:49.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking through you, you're not the same.
[01:49:53.710 --> 01:49:55.270]  I'm looking through you.
[01:49:56.210 --> 01:49:58.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ugh, sounds terrible.
[01:49:59.410 --> 01:50:00.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: How's wrong with that turntable?
[01:50:01.230 --> 01:50:06.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know, for the last couple of days we've been getting horrible sound out of that turntable.
[01:50:06.090 --> 01:50:06.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know why.
[01:50:06.770 --> 01:50:11.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think there's something wrong with the stylus or something, but sorry about that, folks.
[01:50:11.190 --> 01:50:18.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you can understand the words through that, you may have gotten a different type of meaning out of that song.
[01:50:18.290 --> 01:50:25.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure Paul McCartney's on the phone now saying, how dare you say I was, you know, questioning America when I wrote that song.
[01:50:25.810 --> 01:50:27.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm not saying that.
[01:50:27.490 --> 01:50:29.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm just saying it's an interesting way of looking at it.
[01:50:29.310 --> 01:50:31.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it's kind of neat.
[01:50:31.330 --> 01:50:39.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, um, I think we have to constantly be questioning, constantly be looking at things in alternative ways.
[01:50:40.110 --> 01:50:43.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whether it's America, whether it's music, whether it's ourselves.
[01:50:44.790 --> 01:50:52.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's extremely important to be constantly re-evaluating and, uh, I guess second-guessing to a degree.
[01:50:53.450 --> 01:50:56.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Otherwise, uh, we never, we never really learn.
[01:50:56.590 --> 01:50:58.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: We never really make that step, you know?
[01:50:58.730 --> 01:51:00.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[01:51:00.770 --> 01:51:01.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to hear what you think.
[01:51:02.650 --> 01:51:03.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's me.
[01:51:03.490 --> 01:51:03.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:51:03.990 --> 01:51:04.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[01:51:04.330 --> 01:51:05.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um...
[01:51:05.070 --> 01:51:05.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: How you doing?
[01:51:05.650 --> 01:51:07.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, I'm very disturbed about this German thing.
[01:51:08.450 --> 01:51:08.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:51:09.470 --> 01:51:14.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because, uh, well, I mean, it's, it's really a fairly simple matter.
[01:51:14.270 --> 01:51:15.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not a simple matter.
[01:51:15.390 --> 01:51:26.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, George Bush has got to, uh, convince the, uh, the West Germans that the reason that, uh, German reunification is impossible is because the Soviet Union doesn't want it.
[01:51:26.690 --> 01:51:44.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'm absolutely convinced of that, uh, having heard, uh, remarks of a, uh, central committeeman who said, and I'll quote, um, that the, uh, he says that the United States doesn't want it even more than the Soviet Union doesn't want it, which, uh, to me,
[01:51:44.370 --> 01:51:51.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: even has ominous overtones in that, uh, it is my understanding that the United States has achieved now global hegemony.
[01:51:51.570 --> 01:52:04.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, well, I think, wouldn't it be a shame that, uh, since we don't have SDI, uh, implemented yet that we got nuked, uh, having achieved our worldwide domination for the first time in the history of mankind.
[01:52:05.250 --> 01:52:07.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: So why should we screw it up over Germany?
[01:52:07.570 --> 01:52:11.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: So George, George Bush does, uh, Germany is fairly significant.
[01:52:11.130 --> 01:52:24.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, um, I, I think the president has to somehow, uh, soothe the Germans over the fact that we really can't push the Russians on this because, uh, reunification of Germany is putting a knife to the Soviet Union's throat.
[01:52:24.310 --> 01:52:26.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I don't think they'll stand for that.
[01:52:26.510 --> 01:52:34.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what bothers me more is, uh, I'm hearing a lot of stuff, uh, attributing that to, uh, Jewish sentiment.
[01:52:35.230 --> 01:52:38.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I don't, I don't think Jewish sentiment has anything to do with it.
[01:52:38.790 --> 01:52:44.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think certain people are trying to frighten Jewish people into saying they don't want, uh, German reunification.
[01:52:44.590 --> 01:52:47.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: I, I wouldn't blame them for not, for feeling that way.
[01:52:47.650 --> 01:52:55.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I don't believe, uh, uh, Jewish sentiment has anything to do with, uh, uh, uh, international superpower politics.
[01:52:55.890 --> 01:52:56.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know...
[01:52:56.850 --> 01:52:57.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Excuse me?
[01:52:57.470 --> 01:53:02.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it's interesting that you bring this up because I've, I've been thinking about this over the last few weeks.
[01:53:02.670 --> 01:53:06.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of a weird point.
[01:53:06.530 --> 01:53:19.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if you say to yourself or, or anybody else that, uh, Germany cannot be reunited because it would be a danger to the rest of the world, isn't that, isn't that a racist type of a thing to say because...
[01:53:19.050 --> 01:53:22.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, it's an evil thing to say, but we're talking about people's feelings.
[01:53:22.950 --> 01:53:27.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I mean, are, are, are the Germans, is there something inherent in, in Germans?
[01:53:27.510 --> 01:53:28.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's not, I'll agree with you on that.
[01:53:28.830 --> 01:53:28.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: There is.
[01:53:28.990 --> 01:53:29.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:53:29.470 --> 01:53:32.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, I'm not talking a matter of truth, I'm talking a matter of propaganda.
[01:53:32.910 --> 01:53:33.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, right.
[01:53:33.990 --> 01:53:43.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, but, but, but keep this in mind, sir, the, the, the Germans today are not by any, I mean, you know, physically they're not the same people, but, but mentally it's completely different.
[01:53:43.950 --> 01:53:44.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's completely different.
[01:53:44.950 --> 01:53:46.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: They have learned from their history.
[01:53:46.350 --> 01:53:48.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're, they're aware of their history, you know?
[01:53:48.830 --> 01:53:50.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, to me, the Germans never were evil.
[01:53:50.410 --> 01:53:51.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was never the issue.
[01:53:52.110 --> 01:53:56.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the, the, the issue has always been that of Germany's potential power.
[01:53:56.590 --> 01:53:56.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[01:53:57.270 --> 01:53:57.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right?
[01:53:57.630 --> 01:54:00.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Germany, uh, is the, uh, Germany is a tragic case.
[01:54:00.970 --> 01:54:01.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[01:54:01.130 --> 01:54:15.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Germany is a superpower that, uh, didn't come into existence or existed, uh, existed, existed, but, briefly, but, uh, was smashed in World War I, actually, because, of, uh, the super policies of the Kaiser.
[01:54:16.310 --> 01:54:26.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, um, the thing is that there is a certain amount of complexity here, and I'm hearing, I, I, I, I know the American liberals don't want that, right?
[01:54:26.350 --> 01:54:37.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I, I, I think they're incompetent in their assessment, but, uh, they tend to be protective of the Soviet Union, and, uh, I, I think that's what's motivating them.
[01:54:38.030 --> 01:54:53.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the thing is, um, like, if, uh, if a certain person has a liberal politics, then he'll come out, and he won't say, I, as a liberal, don't want German reunification, because I'm sympathetic to a leftist point of view.
[01:54:53.150 --> 01:54:54.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: He'll say, I, he'll speak as a Jew.
[01:54:54.810 --> 01:54:55.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:54:56.410 --> 01:55:10.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, and the problem here is that then, then, the antipathy that that's going to bring down from the Germans and from the American, uh, conservatives is going to fall on the Jews and not on the liberals.
[01:55:10.770 --> 01:55:15.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the Jews are really innocent, innocent victims in that they are not political.
[01:55:16.470 --> 01:55:16.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: See?
[01:55:17.190 --> 01:55:18.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they don't deserve this.
[01:55:18.950 --> 01:55:36.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I, I, I, I also feel that, uh, the Jews were very badly manipulated in the, uh, the last presidential election that the Jewish vote went for the Democrats, when the Democrats actually, uh, were anti-Semitic in their overtones, whereas the Republicans were rather supportive of Israel.
[01:55:36.690 --> 01:55:41.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wait, how, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on a second, you just, you just brought up something that's always been, uh, been a problem with me.
[01:55:42.170 --> 01:55:44.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're anti-Israel, you're anti-Semitic?
[01:55:44.650 --> 01:55:45.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's right.
[01:55:45.090 --> 01:55:49.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't see that at all, because I know lots of, lots of people that are anti...
[01:55:50.610 --> 01:55:52.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not, not, not anti the existence of Israel.
[01:55:52.710 --> 01:55:54.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe we're getting off on the wrong foot here.
[01:55:54.130 --> 01:55:56.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm talking about anti-Israeli policies.
[01:55:57.010 --> 01:55:58.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that's the same thing.
[01:55:58.670 --> 01:56:02.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because, uh, Israel, uh, Israel's looking out for its interests.
[01:56:02.690 --> 01:56:03.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's the same thing...
[01:56:03.890 --> 01:56:11.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And those, uh, those who, uh, who really are anti-Semitic, uh, come down and they say, well, Israel's doing evil things and all that.
[01:56:11.830 --> 01:56:13.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's masking anti-Semitism.
[01:56:13.490 --> 01:56:15.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not denying...
[01:56:15.530 --> 01:56:16.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's anti-Semitic.
[01:56:16.730 --> 01:56:19.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sir, I'm not denying that they're anti-Semites that, that say these things.
[01:56:19.850 --> 01:56:27.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, if you're going to say that every person that, that says Israel's policies, uh, should be changed are anti-Semitic, that's, that's an injustice.
[01:56:27.910 --> 01:56:31.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know what they're entitled to say, but outside is really, uh, it's kind of crummy.
[01:56:31.610 --> 01:56:34.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, if they're Palestinians, I can understand it, right?
[01:56:34.430 --> 01:56:37.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because they have it, they have an interest, right?
[01:56:37.190 --> 01:56:53.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: But all these other people, especially American liberals, the way they've been coming down on Israel, you know, I think that the, uh, that if, I think that liberals are really the source of, uh, like, black anti-Semitism, they rip it up.
[01:56:53.590 --> 01:56:57.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't, I don't think black people left to themselves would do that.
[01:56:57.830 --> 01:57:00.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they, they wouldn't get away, they wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.
[01:57:01.110 --> 01:57:14.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's because they have political support from liberals who, from some misguided policy or, or, or, or greedy political incompetence, uh, are trying to grab power, and they're willing to sacrifice the Jews.
[01:57:14.550 --> 01:57:17.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think they did it in the Roosevelt administration in attacking Hitler.
[01:57:18.570 --> 01:57:31.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, sir, I'm not, I'm not going to say that, uh, that you're mistaken saying that, uh, that these liberal people are behind this, but I, I think it's wrong to, uh, to categorize in any way to say that, uh, the liberals are behind it, or the conservatives are behind it.
[01:57:31.930 --> 01:57:35.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: To a degree, there, there, there's all kinds of different groups here.
[01:57:38.050 --> 01:57:38.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry, continue?
[01:57:39.610 --> 01:57:42.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think the conservatives are behind it.
[01:57:42.270 --> 01:57:43.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think the liberals are behind it.
[01:57:44.450 --> 01:57:44.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well...
[01:57:44.890 --> 01:57:46.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: They've always been behind it.
[01:57:48.890 --> 01:57:49.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:57:49.930 --> 01:57:53.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, and they're doing it again on this German issue.
[01:57:54.450 --> 01:57:56.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: The liberals don't want to reunificate.
[01:57:56.670 --> 01:57:57.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're afraid of it, right?
[01:57:58.230 --> 01:58:00.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Their fears are totally misbegotten, because it ain't gonna happen.
[01:58:01.790 --> 01:58:03.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: It can happen.
[01:58:03.370 --> 01:58:11.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Russians won't allow it, and the United States doesn't want it anyhow, because who the hell needs another superpower in this world to rival the United States?
[01:58:11.770 --> 01:58:12.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right?
[01:58:12.310 --> 01:58:17.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the liberals have this, uh, uh, I don't know, uh, what makes their minds work.
[01:58:17.570 --> 01:58:19.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they, their minds don't work very well.
[01:58:19.850 --> 01:58:24.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the thing is, they're coming out, and they're bringing up, they're bringing up the holocaust again.
[01:58:24.910 --> 01:58:25.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: They are.
[01:58:25.930 --> 01:58:32.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they're talking to the Jews, and I know it's a liberal talking, because they talk to Orthodox Jews, and they understand.
[01:58:33.090 --> 01:58:40.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And even when Shamir talks, Shamir says he doesn't think it's gonna happen anyhow, right?
[01:58:41.270 --> 01:58:44.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, it's, it's coming from left-wing people.
[01:58:44.870 --> 01:58:45.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[01:58:46.050 --> 01:58:56.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I just think that what ought to happen is, uh, Jewish people should recognize the danger in this, and that, that, that there's a, there's a possibility.
[01:58:56.710 --> 01:59:09.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't say George Bush would do it, but he's gonna have to talk to a very powerful country called West Germany, and he's gonna have to explain why he isn't pushing harder on German reunification, because they're already talking about, in the German parliament,
[01:59:10.310 --> 01:59:11.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: about reunification.
[01:59:12.210 --> 01:59:12.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[01:59:12.530 --> 01:59:15.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, and it's still, uh, they're, they're not negotiating that in East Germany.
[01:59:16.110 --> 01:59:23.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, uh, and, uh, and after all the walls come down, they're talking about, uh, some sort of, uh, economic agreements.
[01:59:24.450 --> 01:59:41.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, so it's, you know, it's a specter rising, and already the conservatives in the United States are balking, because there's trouble in the Republican Party, as you know, between conservatives and the, uh, moderates like George Bush, and, uh, the conservatives are willing to make an issue out of this.
[01:59:42.170 --> 01:59:44.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they'll come down on the Jews, and I've heard it already.
[01:59:45.690 --> 02:00:02.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, so what'll happen is, the, the upshot of this is if it's attributed to the Jews, they'll be, West Germany will not be cooperative and pro-Israel as it used to be, and the conservatives are gonna start in on the Jews, and already the Jews are getting it from the blacks,
[02:00:02.750 --> 02:00:15.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: and I think enough already, that if the liberals don't want reunification of Germany, they should say, I, as a liberal, am frightened of Germany, or for whatever rationale they want to give, and take the onus of it.
[02:00:18.090 --> 02:00:19.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see.
[02:00:20.600 --> 02:00:29.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's hard for me to, uh, to, uh, to start on this, um, but you believe that the, the liberals are behind all of this?
[02:00:29.780 --> 02:00:30.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Behind?
[02:00:30.960 --> 02:00:39.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think the liberals are the ones that are instigating, uh, against the reunification of, uh, are being, the ones who are being vocal about it.
[02:00:39.830 --> 02:00:40.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[02:00:40.680 --> 02:00:41.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right?
[02:00:41.360 --> 02:00:43.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they're not talking as liberals.
[02:00:44.620 --> 02:00:45.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, I haven't really...
[02:00:45.720 --> 02:00:46.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: A political faction.
[02:00:46.670 --> 02:00:51.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I haven't really seen any, any, anything vocal against reunification in this country.
[02:00:51.600 --> 02:00:51.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Plenty.
[02:00:52.850 --> 02:00:53.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Plenty of it.
[02:00:53.980 --> 02:00:59.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've, I've seen the, uh, the government of Israel went and said it, uh, um, said they were uncomfortable with that.
[02:00:59.750 --> 02:01:01.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Should I have made a moral statement, which surprised me very much.
[02:01:01.200 --> 02:01:03.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: He must be under a lot of pressure from the, uh, Labour Party.
[02:01:04.410 --> 02:01:05.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Which is run by liberals.
[02:01:06.780 --> 02:01:07.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[02:01:07.750 --> 02:01:08.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, interesting.
[02:01:08.920 --> 02:01:19.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, another thing, just to get away from this for a moment, um, why is it necessary for there be, for there to be unification, reunification between, I mean...
[02:01:19.540 --> 02:01:22.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not necessary, but the Germans want it.
[02:01:22.520 --> 02:01:25.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: But East Germany could exist as a separate state.
[02:01:25.090 --> 02:01:28.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: ...the Soviet Union, they're trying to grandstand on the issue.
[02:01:29.840 --> 02:01:30.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[02:01:30.840 --> 02:01:32.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: They don't want to be president.
[02:01:33.270 --> 02:01:35.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay, now we're getting into territory that's another show.
[02:01:35.460 --> 02:01:37.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, but all these things interrelate.
[02:01:37.980 --> 02:01:38.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[02:01:39.600 --> 02:01:40.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: They don't want to be president.
[02:01:41.480 --> 02:01:45.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: The, the, the Republicans and conservatives are irritated and they've got an issue.
[02:01:46.170 --> 02:01:49.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: They want, they like to take an aggressive stand toward the Soviet Union.
[02:01:58.350 --> 02:02:04.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they're saying, we don't want German reunification because Germany is evil.
[02:02:04.210 --> 02:02:05.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Look at the holocaust.
[02:02:06.170 --> 02:02:06.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[02:02:06.650 --> 02:02:09.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, like I said before, that's, you know...
[02:02:09.090 --> 02:02:09.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, talk.
[02:02:09.710 --> 02:02:11.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, that, that is racist to a degree.
[02:02:11.670 --> 02:02:13.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'll say something else that I find, uh, to be racist.
[02:02:13.890 --> 02:02:14.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm going to move on to another call.
[02:02:15.570 --> 02:02:19.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, you take a look at, um, at old Hitler speeches, right?
[02:02:20.210 --> 02:02:26.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, you know, you, you see the guy yammering away there on, on TV or the documentary film or something like that.
[02:02:27.390 --> 02:02:34.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, the guy is, is, is talking fast, furious German, but you never see underneath what it is he's saying.
[02:02:35.310 --> 02:02:45.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, when I was in Germany, uh, this past summer, I was hanging out with some, some young Germans and occasionally something would happen that would cause them to get excited.
[02:02:45.710 --> 02:02:47.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, like, you know, life does that to you occasionally.
[02:02:47.870 --> 02:02:51.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he'd start yammering away in this fast-talking German.
[02:02:51.490 --> 02:02:53.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And right away, I, I just, I got all startled.
[02:02:53.510 --> 02:02:55.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I said, whoa, that's Hitler talk.
[02:02:55.950 --> 02:02:57.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: That sounds like Hitler, the way they're talking.
[02:02:57.590 --> 02:02:59.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're, they're talking fast German and excited.
[02:02:59.950 --> 02:03:01.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, oh my God, what's, what's going on here?
[02:03:02.610 --> 02:03:14.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a very subtle form of racism to be presented with that picture of Hitler speaking in excited German phrases and to say, that's Nazism.
[02:03:14.810 --> 02:03:15.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's not Nazism.
[02:03:15.730 --> 02:03:21.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: What he was doing, what he was saying, the words he was saying, that was Nazism, but we don't know what the words were.
[02:03:21.870 --> 02:03:22.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: They never translate that.
[02:03:23.590 --> 02:03:26.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that, that, that really bothers me, you know, the more I think of it.
[02:03:27.110 --> 02:03:35.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I mean, God knows, uh, there are a lot of, a lot of guilty people for what happened during the holocaust, during World War II.
[02:03:36.790 --> 02:03:41.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of people that got away with it, and for all intents and purposes, they did get away with it.
[02:03:41.710 --> 02:03:49.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, there were thousands of Jews in, in East Germany, maybe even hundreds of thousands, I'm not certain, before the war.
[02:03:49.330 --> 02:03:50.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, hundreds.
[02:03:51.250 --> 02:03:54.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, uh, you could say Hitler succeeded to a degree.
[02:03:56.010 --> 02:03:57.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's scary.
[02:03:57.890 --> 02:04:05.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, at the same time, let's not, uh, let's not blame people who weren't even born.
[02:04:06.330 --> 02:04:10.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the West Germans, the East Germans today are well aware of their history.
[02:04:10.490 --> 02:04:14.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're well aware of what happened, and they're determined not to repeat it.
[02:04:14.110 --> 02:04:16.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't think they will, because they have that link.
[02:04:16.590 --> 02:04:19.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: They have that sense of what came before.
[02:04:20.950 --> 02:04:25.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And when you have that, that link with the past, you know, that's, that's the key.
[02:04:25.490 --> 02:04:26.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what's so important.
[02:04:27.390 --> 02:04:28.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because you're educated.
[02:04:28.550 --> 02:04:29.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know something.
[02:04:29.390 --> 02:04:30.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what, what has happened.
[02:04:30.890 --> 02:04:32.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what mistakes have been made.
[02:04:32.970 --> 02:04:35.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: And hopefully, you're determined not to make them again.
[02:04:36.450 --> 02:04:38.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our number is 279-3400.
[02:04:38.570 --> 02:04:45.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to move back to Central America issues, uh, you know, only because it's a big world, and, uh, you know, we could go on all day with this.
[02:04:45.890 --> 02:04:46.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[02:04:46.590 --> 02:04:47.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good morning.
[02:04:47.970 --> 02:04:50.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, I'm glad you used the, uh, word subtle.
[02:04:50.690 --> 02:04:51.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[02:04:51.910 --> 02:04:53.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because that is what we're, issue.
[02:04:54.170 --> 02:04:57.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not the price issue that that young man, uh, brought up.
[02:04:57.670 --> 02:04:59.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's what it stood for.
[02:04:59.550 --> 02:05:01.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Don't you understand, my good man?
[02:05:01.370 --> 02:05:07.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: You see, uh, you remember the story about the Dutch boy and how he put his finger into the dike?
[02:05:07.670 --> 02:05:13.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: One little finger in the dike of, uh, you know, this country, uh, saved the country from a flood.
[02:05:13.270 --> 02:05:14.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that young man was a hero.
[02:05:14.710 --> 02:05:26.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, uh, he is being disparaged by, uh, everyone on the station almost, uh, he is allowed to speak for a moment to sort of, uh, you know, we can say, uh, freedom of speech exists.
[02:05:26.650 --> 02:05:27.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you see what I mean?
[02:05:28.070 --> 02:05:33.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, uh, this is not freedom of speech when he is reviled and he is hung up on and so on.
[02:05:33.870 --> 02:05:34.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who are you talking about?
[02:05:34.990 --> 02:05:38.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: I am talking about the problem that exists at WBAI.
[02:05:38.930 --> 02:05:42.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, we, uh, we listeners are given short shrift.
[02:05:42.590 --> 02:05:46.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: We are looked upon as the, uh, money people for this station.
[02:05:46.990 --> 02:05:52.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: We are being, uh, you know, treated in a kind of servile, uh, economic way.
[02:05:52.670 --> 02:05:53.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, wait, wait, wait.
[02:05:53.310 --> 02:05:55.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you being treated in a servile way on, on this program now?
[02:05:55.970 --> 02:06:03.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, uh, yes, I was hung up on when I tried to come on to the real issue, the one right in our midst.
[02:06:03.830 --> 02:06:15.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: The fact that this station is not doing what it should be doing, where it bans a Mike Feder who's had a program on for a long time when he said he didn't like some of the other broadcasters' attitudes.
[02:06:16.170 --> 02:06:18.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, what should have been done would be...
[02:06:20.670 --> 02:06:21.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, folks, I'm sorry.
[02:06:22.450 --> 02:06:24.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: He had a different accent that time, didn't he?
[02:06:24.650 --> 02:06:27.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, you know, I don't know.
[02:06:27.390 --> 02:06:27.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[02:06:27.990 --> 02:06:29.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, start a mass movement.
[02:06:30.250 --> 02:06:31.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe I'll listen then.
[02:06:31.330 --> 02:06:31.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[02:06:32.310 --> 02:06:32.890]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good morning.
[02:06:35.070 --> 02:06:36.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is there something you want to say?
[02:06:36.730 --> 02:06:37.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I certainly will.
[02:06:37.970 --> 02:06:38.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, go ahead.
[02:06:38.970 --> 02:06:41.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, the, um...
[02:06:41.730 --> 02:06:43.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, my goodness, what's been going on?
[02:06:43.790 --> 02:06:46.190]  [SPEAKER_17]: The last couple of callers has got me off the bank.
[02:06:46.470 --> 02:06:48.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I realize that's possible.
[02:06:48.650 --> 02:06:49.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh...
[02:06:50.470 --> 02:07:08.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, the, uh, bombing of the, uh, of the, of the, of the, uh, of the, uh, where the poor people lived in El Salvador was done by the El Salvadorian Army, or Air Force, is that correct?
[02:07:08.670 --> 02:07:11.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: The, uh, are you referring to the killing of the priests, or...?
[02:07:11.350 --> 02:07:11.950]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, wait.
[02:07:12.130 --> 02:07:13.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, in fact, that's the point I'm going to make.
[02:07:13.770 --> 02:07:14.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, go ahead.
[02:07:14.290 --> 02:07:17.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, I'm talking about the Air Force of the El Salvadorian government.
[02:07:19.170 --> 02:07:22.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Bombing the, the villages of the, of the people who were poor.
[02:07:23.250 --> 02:07:23.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, yes.
[02:07:24.210 --> 02:07:25.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thousands of people died there.
[02:07:26.190 --> 02:07:28.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Over, over the last, uh...
[02:07:28.170 --> 02:07:28.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mm-hmm, yes.
[02:07:29.170 --> 02:07:30.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: How, how long a period of time is it now?
[02:07:30.890 --> 02:07:35.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: Since the, since the, uh, let's, let's think about the priests then, and then we've got the idea about that time.
[02:07:36.170 --> 02:07:36.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[02:07:36.650 --> 02:07:37.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mm-hmm.
[02:07:37.870 --> 02:07:43.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, the, uh, the number of people that were died when the nuns got raped were extraordinary.
[02:07:44.230 --> 02:07:44.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[02:07:45.270 --> 02:07:52.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: Children, like the lady called and mentioned children, that we seem to, and our morality professed to care so much about.
[02:07:52.870 --> 02:07:58.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not just in El Salvador, but all the children in Nicaragua that, uh, you know, if they haven't, if they haven't been...
[02:07:58.010 --> 02:07:58.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know about El Salvador.
[02:07:58.710 --> 02:08:02.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, but if they haven't been killed, they're, they're being brought up in a, in a war.
[02:08:02.430 --> 02:08:04.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's, that screws you up for life.
[02:08:04.810 --> 02:08:05.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: But up in extreme poverty.
[02:08:05.610 --> 02:08:07.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: In extreme poverty, too, of course.
[02:08:07.430 --> 02:08:08.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: In extreme poverty.
[02:08:08.770 --> 02:08:11.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: And their death rate is, is really accounted in those numbers.
[02:08:12.190 --> 02:08:12.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[02:08:12.270 --> 02:08:12.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: In the impoverishment.
[02:08:13.490 --> 02:08:19.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: But they didn't seem to hesitate in bombing as poor as they are and as in extremely poor as they are.
[02:08:19.530 --> 02:08:23.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: They didn't seem to, the government didn't seem to hesitate in bombing those villages.
[02:08:23.570 --> 02:08:29.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, the point I'd like to make is that they said that there are something called death squads.
[02:08:30.250 --> 02:08:30.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[02:08:30.510 --> 02:08:34.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, perhaps the death squads is the Ossalatorian government.
[02:08:35.510 --> 02:08:36.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Have we ever thought about that?
[02:08:37.030 --> 02:08:38.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think we have.
[02:08:38.030 --> 02:08:40.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think, uh, to a degree, our government, too.
[02:08:40.590 --> 02:08:41.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, I don't know.
[02:08:41.410 --> 02:08:48.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because, you see, we seem to be parlaying it, playing it off on certain kind of individuals who are outside of the government who are doing these things.
[02:08:48.950 --> 02:08:49.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I see your point.
[02:08:49.650 --> 02:08:50.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, of course.
[02:08:50.410 --> 02:08:52.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I mean, there is a very definite link.
[02:08:52.050 --> 02:09:02.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: In the article I read before, uh, the, the, the people that put the, uh, the current president and power, uh, are, are linked to these, uh, to these, to these groups.
[02:09:03.050 --> 02:09:08.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, the people that are fighting the current government and power did not, were not part of that election process, were they?
[02:09:09.730 --> 02:09:10.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry, say that again?
[02:09:10.810 --> 02:09:18.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: People of El Salvador didn't have the opportunity to vote for the people who are fighting against the El Salvadorian government, the people that are called the guerrillas.
[02:09:18.630 --> 02:09:18.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[02:09:18.990 --> 02:09:20.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I mean, that's, you know, that's...
[02:09:20.290 --> 02:09:21.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: But they say it was a legitimate government.
[02:09:21.850 --> 02:09:23.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was a legitimately elected government.
[02:09:23.770 --> 02:09:28.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, that's open to debate, depending on how you look upon, uh, what is fair and what is not fair.
[02:09:28.490 --> 02:09:33.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I, I think, you know, we should look at this simplistically and, and just say, what are we doing there?
[02:09:33.310 --> 02:09:36.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, what is a big, huge country like this doing there in the first place?
[02:09:36.130 --> 02:09:39.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if you listen to things, simplicity, you might miss the point.
[02:09:39.490 --> 02:09:42.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can't get people going out by your saying they should go out.
[02:09:42.390 --> 02:09:42.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[02:09:42.630 --> 02:09:45.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: You certainly can't get them going out by your saying that they should read newspapers.
[02:09:46.390 --> 02:09:49.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because they, they, that's the things that are turning them off.
[02:09:49.790 --> 02:09:50.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know, I think if...
[02:09:50.650 --> 02:09:53.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: We have to talk about what, what, what's really going on.
[02:09:54.130 --> 02:09:54.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: You see...
[02:09:54.590 --> 02:09:56.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: The people do not have a say in their government.
[02:09:56.730 --> 02:10:00.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, there's more than, there's more than the mainstream press.
[02:10:00.610 --> 02:10:02.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, what I'm saying is there's more than the mainstream press.
[02:10:02.930 --> 02:10:04.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's all kinds of papers and magazines.
[02:10:04.550 --> 02:10:05.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: We don't have access to that.
[02:10:05.690 --> 02:10:10.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: You yourself said that there were no... the papers have... we have not that many newspapers anymore.
[02:10:10.330 --> 02:10:11.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm referring to daily newspapers, yes.
[02:10:12.070 --> 02:10:15.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there's things like The Voice, there's things like, you know, all kinds of publications.
[02:10:15.370 --> 02:10:17.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: There's things like people don't listen to WBAI's...
[02:10:17.550 --> 02:10:19.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I'd like to make a point...
[02:10:19.210 --> 02:10:20.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: The opportunity is there.
[02:10:20.410 --> 02:10:22.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: ...for about an hour trying to get through, okay?
[02:10:22.790 --> 02:10:24.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you've talked for a long time, I'd like to talk.
[02:10:24.950 --> 02:10:25.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[02:10:25.590 --> 02:10:25.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[02:10:27.950 --> 02:10:39.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: This government in its finest days, in the 50s, in the 30s, in the 20s, and back before then, and all the good people, like, what's the name said on the Bob Dylan set of being pawns.
[02:10:39.530 --> 02:10:40.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: You white folks are real pawns.
[02:10:41.170 --> 02:10:42.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: But we're your victims, man.
[02:10:43.270 --> 02:10:43.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[02:10:44.910 --> 02:10:46.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's the problem you've got to deal with.
[02:10:47.070 --> 02:10:51.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: You have to deal with how you sat and did nothing and still sit and do nothing.
[02:10:52.130 --> 02:10:55.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: And what happens if you sit too long, you start to go crazy, you know?
[02:10:55.490 --> 02:11:00.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: So that when the man says, communist, for instance, you foam at the mouth.
[02:11:00.270 --> 02:11:00.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[02:11:00.890 --> 02:11:01.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: Like Paul Vostok.
[02:11:02.890 --> 02:11:11.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think we have a problem when you talk about Cuba having a good birth mortality rate and all of that, but then you say, hey, but they don't have other things.
[02:11:11.970 --> 02:11:13.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: What are the other things you're talking about?
[02:11:14.310 --> 02:11:20.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: Are the other things you're talking about Jodhasty jeans or Chrysler 88 models?
[02:11:20.630 --> 02:11:23.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Cuba has been under an embargo since it's been in existence.
[02:11:24.990 --> 02:11:28.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: People have stopped goods and services from coming into Cuba.
[02:11:28.790 --> 02:11:34.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: Has anybody set foot in this country in terms of a war footing like they did the Soviet Union?
[02:11:35.750 --> 02:11:39.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Has this country been destroyed and built again?
[02:11:39.430 --> 02:11:41.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Perhaps it would have been better if it had, maybe.
[02:11:41.830 --> 02:11:46.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Like Europe has or any other place has, like every other place on this planet has?
[02:11:47.170 --> 02:11:51.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: What excuse have we got for people reaching into garbage cans and eating out of them?
[02:11:51.730 --> 02:11:54.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: And what shame do we walk around with?
[02:11:55.110 --> 02:11:59.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, before Hitler was able to take power, and you're Jewish, right?
[02:12:00.010 --> 02:12:02.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I don't talk about that kind of stuff on the Internet.
[02:12:02.450 --> 02:12:05.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, but before Hitler was able to take power, he had to build scapegoats, didn't he?
[02:12:05.790 --> 02:12:06.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[02:12:06.250 --> 02:12:11.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: And he built the scapegoats on those who were the most disenfranchised or the least politically powerful, right?
[02:12:12.210 --> 02:12:13.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: He did it on the gypsies.
[02:12:13.570 --> 02:12:15.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: He did it on homosexuals, didn't he?
[02:12:15.750 --> 02:12:16.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[02:12:16.250 --> 02:12:17.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: And the people went for it.
[02:12:17.610 --> 02:12:18.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: Why did they go for it?
[02:12:19.410 --> 02:12:23.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: When there were lynch mobs in the South, you think people just went up and said, we're going to lynch this nigger now?
[02:12:23.830 --> 02:12:29.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, this nigger that they're going to lynch is the guy that raped some woman or yelled at some woman or something before.
[02:12:29.550 --> 02:12:30.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: Any kind of excuse?
[02:12:31.070 --> 02:12:36.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: And in the white people's impoverishment, they went out and lynched someone who was more victimized than they?
[02:12:37.110 --> 02:12:39.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: You listen to Bob Dylan, can I ask you how old you are?
[02:12:39.990 --> 02:12:42.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, again, that's another thing I don't talk about on the air.
[02:12:42.210 --> 02:12:47.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, you see, life experience is very important if you're not book-trained, and book-trained doesn't do any good without life experience, you know?
[02:12:48.030 --> 02:12:48.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, right.
[02:12:48.750 --> 02:12:57.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you can't talk around these things without getting to the real meat of it, and this way you'll get people to respond on Saturday and on Monday, like I'll be there.
[02:12:58.070 --> 02:13:06.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'll never vote for George Bush because George Bush doesn't represent a conversation, and George Bush is by no means a moderate, a CIA cutthroat.
[02:13:07.210 --> 02:13:17.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: George Bush is a reactionary, and we've had reactionaries ever since the so-called civil rights movements, and that was the thing that began to set America free.
[02:13:17.430 --> 02:13:19.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: As a consequence, we're eating dirt now.
[02:13:20.570 --> 02:13:23.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who supported Hitler before he became Hitler?
[02:13:24.750 --> 02:13:26.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: Was it really Stalin?
[02:13:26.850 --> 02:13:28.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or was it John Henry Ford?
[02:13:29.410 --> 02:13:30.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Real anti-Semites.
[02:13:31.730 --> 02:13:35.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: We've got to know what we're talking about so we can talk truth to people.
[02:13:35.510 --> 02:13:42.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because otherwise, like the fellow came on before and talked about African-Americans, he's called them blacks, I don't know who they are.
[02:13:42.370 --> 02:13:52.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: African-Americans, they're being used by so-called liberals, and I don't know what that is, about anti-Semitism in regards to Israel who is breaking children's arms.
[02:13:52.770 --> 02:13:56.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it was the American public that stopped that, wasn't it?
[02:13:56.430 --> 02:13:58.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because of their criticism of Israel, wasn't it?
[02:13:59.350 --> 02:14:10.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: There are people in Israel who have views that are extremely, excuse the expression, I don't know what it is, but they call it progressive, that want to sit down and talk with other people rather than break children's hands.
[02:14:10.650 --> 02:14:12.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they're considered anti-Semites, I suppose.
[02:14:13.470 --> 02:14:17.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you mention Jesse Jackson's name, you're an anti-Semite.
[02:14:17.950 --> 02:14:20.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: But he holds views that a lot of folks hold.
[02:14:21.710 --> 02:14:26.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we've got to deal with that, because if we don't, you know who's going to rule the roost?
[02:14:26.550 --> 02:14:29.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, who's going to rule the roost is who's ruling it now.
[02:14:32.880 --> 02:14:33.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: You understand?
[02:14:33.940 --> 02:14:34.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes.
[02:14:34.840 --> 02:14:39.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it's very painful, because the quality of life is extremely dear to all of us.
[02:14:40.040 --> 02:14:50.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: If we do not celebrate the quality of life that we are capable of celebrating, then something diabolical is going to happen to our psychic, and we'll be goose-stepping into the next century.
[02:14:51.900 --> 02:14:53.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: You and Gentile alike.
[02:14:55.160 --> 02:14:56.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's all I have to say.
[02:14:56.600 --> 02:14:58.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, thank you very much for calling.
[02:14:58.680 --> 02:15:00.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'll see you on Saturday.
[02:15:00.760 --> 02:15:01.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[02:15:02.400 --> 02:15:03.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[02:15:03.660 --> 02:15:05.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: That is our telephone number.
[02:15:10.320 --> 02:15:13.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's just about 17 minutes after 3 o'clock.
[02:15:13.900 --> 02:15:15.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're here until 3.30.
[02:15:15.560 --> 02:15:20.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Tom Whisker on the weaponry program.
[02:15:20.160 --> 02:15:22.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be back for the next two weeks as well.
[02:15:24.540 --> 02:15:30.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we will be taking some more phone calls right after this public service announcement.
[02:15:38.630 --> 02:15:40.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Don't take it too seriously.
[02:15:53.460 --> 02:15:56.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[02:15:58.900 --> 02:16:02.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[02:16:03.920 --> 02:16:06.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[02:16:11.390 --> 02:16:14.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[02:16:14.350 --> 02:16:14.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[02:16:14.570 --> 02:16:16.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[02:16:18.090 --> 02:16:19.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Christianity is stupid.
[02:16:23.650 --> 02:16:25.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Christianity is stupid.
[02:16:46.620 --> 02:16:48.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communism is good.
[02:16:48.340 --> 02:16:51.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communism is good.
[02:16:57.900 --> 02:17:02.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up...
[02:17:06.600 --> 02:17:08.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:17:09.980 --> 02:17:11.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:17:18.220 --> 02:17:20.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Christianity is stupid!
[02:17:30.460 --> 02:17:31.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:17:31.980 --> 02:17:32.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:17:33.020 --> 02:17:33.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:17:33.660 --> 02:17:35.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communist is good.
[02:17:36.360 --> 02:17:40.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communist is stupid.
[02:17:41.220 --> 02:17:43.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communist is stupid.
[02:17:49.980 --> 02:17:51.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communist is good.
[02:17:51.760 --> 02:17:54.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Communist is good.
[02:17:56.860 --> 02:17:58.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up.
[02:17:58.900 --> 02:18:00.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up.
[02:18:00.620 --> 02:18:01.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up.
[02:18:01.400 --> 02:18:04.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: From 5 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night.
[02:18:06.200 --> 02:18:07.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up.
[02:18:07.380 --> 02:18:07.800]  Give up.
[02:18:08.540 --> 02:18:12.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: From 5 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night.
[02:18:15.040 --> 02:18:19.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: From 5 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night.
[02:18:20.000 --> 02:18:21.100]  Comicism is good.
[02:18:43.520 --> 02:18:44.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:18:46.060 --> 02:18:51.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:18:59.790 --> 02:19:01.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Seventeen hours at save!
[02:19:02.390 --> 02:19:03.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:19:03.870 --> 02:19:04.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:19:05.170 --> 02:19:05.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give up!
[02:19:09.840 --> 02:19:17.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here now is commentary by Vladislav Kozdyakov on the coming Soviet-American summit in the Mediterranean.
[02:19:19.020 --> 02:19:25.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was agreed in advance, he writes, that it would be an official meeting and that no agreement would be signed.
[02:19:25.600 --> 02:19:42.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: However, it is not ruled out that Mikhail Gorbachev and George Bush will approve some directives and will give instructions to their foreign ministers or other representatives, especially in preparation for a summit due to take place in Washington next spring or summer.
[02:19:43.060 --> 02:19:45.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: This seems to be very important.
[02:19:45.480 --> 02:19:54.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Such an approach makes it possible, given reciprocity, to advance in any field of cooperation and put any understanding into action.
[02:19:55.420 --> 02:20:02.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Moscow does not share the fears expressed by some American commentators and politicians prior to the meeting.
[02:20:02.800 --> 02:20:07.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: They allege that a meeting in Malta will be like the meeting in Reykjavik.
[02:20:07.980 --> 02:20:13.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have assured us that if anything like that takes place, it would be a disaster.
[02:20:14.160 --> 02:20:18.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: The creation of this Reykjavik image is surprising.
[02:20:19.000 --> 02:20:37.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wasn't it a real breakthrough in Reykjavik in 1986, when the two leaders coordinated nuclear disarmament objectives, adherence to which is now being reaffirmed by both sides in their work on an agreement on a 50% reduction in strategic offensive arms?
[02:20:38.120 --> 02:20:48.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Didn't the Reykjavik meeting contribute to the signing of the INF Treaty in 1987, a treaty called a historic accord in East and West alike?
[02:20:48.680 --> 02:20:56.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: The impression is that some American politicians seem to be afraid of radical agreements.
[02:20:57.030 --> 02:21:08.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Shortly before the Mediterranean meeting, they wondered, with something of timidity, whether President Mikhail Gorbachev would come up with some new proposals.
[02:21:09.270 --> 02:21:20.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the meantime, with all the importance of Soviet initiatives, the situation in the world, in particular in Europe, compels the West to adopt new, bold approaches for the benefit of cooperation.
[02:21:21.560 --> 02:21:27.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: The destroica in the USSR and renewal in Eastern Europe have given rise to rapid development.
[02:21:27.980 --> 02:21:34.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: The essence of changes is to promote democracy, the freedom of nations, and freedom of choice.
[02:21:35.660 --> 02:21:43.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: In these conditions, global understanding, in particular between the USSR and the United States, is of special significance.
[02:21:45.160 --> 02:21:58.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: When President Bush spoke with Soviet parliamentarians in the White House on the threshold of the meeting in Malta, he asked what the United States could do to help the Soviet Union.
[02:21:59.140 --> 02:22:09.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Soviet guest said that Americans could help by agreeing to reduce arms and expand economic ties with the Soviet Union.
[02:22:09.800 --> 02:22:16.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: President Bush welcomed this and said that such an approach would be advantageous to both sides.
[02:22:17.400 --> 02:22:33.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Moscow believes the Mediterranean meeting could melt the ice of the Cold War completely and open the door wider for cooperation between the Soviet Union and United States for the benefit of their nations and also for the rest of the world.
[02:22:35.140 --> 02:22:40.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Commentary by Vladislav Kazikov was prepared at the studios of Radio Moscow.
[02:22:41.740 --> 02:22:48.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was re-aired here at the studios of WBAI in New York where we thought you'd like to know what's being said.
[02:22:49.040 --> 02:22:51.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'd like to know what you have to say.
[02:22:52.740 --> 02:22:56.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And our telephone number is 279-3400.
[02:22:57.460 --> 02:23:04.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't have very much time left, only about four minutes or so, but we're going to make a valiant effort here to plow through these.
[02:23:04.940 --> 02:23:05.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[02:23:08.460 --> 02:23:09.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[02:23:10.560 --> 02:23:15.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, perhaps I should say part of the game plan is you have to be there.
[02:23:15.160 --> 02:23:16.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to be on the other side of the phone.
[02:23:16.560 --> 02:23:19.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: So let's see if we can both get on the phone at the same time.
[02:23:19.840 --> 02:23:20.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[02:23:20.700 --> 02:23:21.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: Good morning.
[02:23:21.340 --> 02:23:22.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just have a quick question.
[02:23:22.640 --> 02:23:26.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: It concerns the show you did a few weeks ago when you were talking about the phone company.
[02:23:27.360 --> 02:23:31.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: There was a gentleman who had all sorts of information and he left a P.O.
[02:23:31.320 --> 02:23:31.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Box number.
[02:23:31.800 --> 02:23:34.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just wondering if you happen to get that, if you have it.
[02:23:34.720 --> 02:23:35.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: I know you probably don't have it right now.
[02:23:36.020 --> 02:23:37.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'll tell you what, write to me at the station.
[02:23:37.580 --> 02:23:38.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't have it here.
[02:23:39.060 --> 02:23:41.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you write to me, I'll pass that information.
[02:23:41.820 --> 02:23:45.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, I'll probably pass that information along to you at some point.
[02:23:45.440 --> 02:23:46.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: You do have it, though?
[02:23:47.060 --> 02:23:51.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure I can get it because I do have the show on tape someplace and I'll dig it out.
[02:23:52.000 --> 02:23:52.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, thanks.
[02:23:52.640 --> 02:23:52.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[02:23:53.080 --> 02:23:53.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bye.
[02:23:53.680 --> 02:23:54.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm going to a lot of trouble.
[02:23:55.000 --> 02:23:56.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'll let you know that.
[02:23:57.020 --> 02:24:10.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, if you want to write to us or write to me, I'm Emmanuel Goldstein and the address here is WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York 10018.
[02:24:10.800 --> 02:24:11.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[02:24:11.660 --> 02:24:13.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, let's take some more calls.
[02:24:13.920 --> 02:24:14.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[02:24:16.200 --> 02:24:17.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is anyone there?
[02:24:17.500 --> 02:24:18.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe there's something wrong with our phone.
[02:24:18.980 --> 02:24:19.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello?
[02:24:19.460 --> 02:24:19.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, go ahead.
[02:24:19.940 --> 02:24:20.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, hi.
[02:24:20.740 --> 02:24:20.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[02:24:20.800 --> 02:24:25.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have an interesting little piece of tape here.
[02:24:25.420 --> 02:24:26.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: A piece of tape, huh?
[02:24:26.520 --> 02:24:26.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[02:24:27.360 --> 02:24:28.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: You should be able to hear it okay.
[02:24:29.940 --> 02:24:31.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me preface it.
[02:24:31.940 --> 02:24:44.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tom Whisker sometimes plays these tapes of Arthur Godfrey giving you a radio, an earful tour of the Strategic Air Command, these vintage tapes from the 50s and whatnot.
[02:24:45.460 --> 02:24:47.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, speak up a bit so we can hear it.
[02:24:48.120 --> 02:24:48.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, okay.
[02:24:49.680 --> 02:24:57.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: This one, this is something a little more recent and more with your topic of El Salvador and Central America.
[02:24:58.120 --> 02:24:59.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: So hang on a second.
[02:25:01.880 --> 02:25:02.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: My God!
[02:25:02.760 --> 02:25:03.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey there.
[02:25:03.220 --> 02:25:03.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: What have you done?
[02:25:04.100 --> 02:25:05.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Don't go away, don't go away.
[02:25:05.100 --> 02:25:06.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: What were all those noises?
[02:25:08.780 --> 02:25:11.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: If anyone out there could translate those tones, I want to know what they are.
[02:25:17.520 --> 02:25:19.220]  Main 75, this is McGill.
[02:25:19.720 --> 02:25:20.200]  We
[02:25:25.230 --> 02:25:27.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: should be there, like I said, in about 40 minutes or so.
[02:25:27.890 --> 02:25:28.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I need to do me a favor.
[02:25:29.030 --> 02:25:31.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to give 21st Air Force a call.
[02:25:31.810 --> 02:25:33.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let them know of our intention.
[02:25:34.130 --> 02:25:36.570]  And as we can request that a set
[02:25:39.700 --> 02:25:55.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: plan to warn us from the McGill to Howard Air Force Base and one from McGill to R-Stulls Rhodes, El Cuba, and then from, uh, R-Stulls, excuse me, from, uh, Cuba, Puerto Rico.
[02:25:55.080 --> 02:26:00.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: From McGill, Puerto Rico, R-Stulls Rhodes, and then down to Howard from there as well.
[02:26:03.760 --> 02:26:04.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, Roger, sir.
[02:26:04.980 --> 02:26:06.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: I understand your basic request.
[02:26:07.400 --> 02:26:08.280]  Please, bring
[02:26:12.930 --> 02:26:17.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: your computer flight plan from McGill to Howard Air Force Base, Panama.
[02:26:18.050 --> 02:26:19.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Another computer flight plan.
[02:26:19.710 --> 02:26:27.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, what, what you're listening to there is, uh, is a shipment of probably more guns headed down to Panama.
[02:26:28.850 --> 02:26:29.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Fascinating.
[02:26:29.410 --> 02:26:31.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you, do you have that on actual tape?
[02:26:31.690 --> 02:26:32.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, obviously you do.
[02:26:32.730 --> 02:26:33.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: You just played it.
[02:26:33.370 --> 02:26:34.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was wondering if you might be able to send us the tape.
[02:26:35.370 --> 02:26:36.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Send you the tape?
[02:26:36.510 --> 02:26:39.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, because, uh, it was breaking up a bit over the telephone.
[02:26:39.670 --> 02:26:40.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, sorry.
[02:26:40.470 --> 02:26:43.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, it would be, it would be a nice thing to, like, throw on a record or something.
[02:26:43.510 --> 02:26:44.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: I probably could.
[02:26:44.790 --> 02:26:48.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the other side has something even, uh, a little more interesting in it.
[02:26:48.430 --> 02:26:51.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: I happened to catch, uh, George while he was in the air the other day.
[02:26:51.990 --> 02:26:52.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you?
[02:26:52.450 --> 02:26:53.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: And did he make a phone call or something?
[02:26:53.970 --> 02:27:00.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, but it, it wasn't, I didn't, I didn't quite get George, but they kept on referring to the boss being on the same plane.
[02:27:00.650 --> 02:27:03.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they were talking all about the, uh, Secretary of Defense.
[02:27:04.490 --> 02:27:04.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: And...
[02:27:04.890 --> 02:27:07.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, was the plane referred to as Air Force One?
[02:27:07.630 --> 02:27:09.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, um, no.
[02:27:09.850 --> 02:27:12.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, they didn't quite refer to it.
[02:27:12.250 --> 02:27:16.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, actually, I just, no, I didn't, I didn't actually pick up an identifier.
[02:27:17.470 --> 02:27:25.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but the, the, the traffic, they were talking to guys in, in Belgium and, um, and setting up all this stuff.
[02:27:26.070 --> 02:27:32.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, and it was like two personal secretaries talking about his schedule for next week and all this stuff.
[02:27:32.690 --> 02:27:33.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see.
[02:27:33.510 --> 02:27:34.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Lining up press conferences.
[02:27:34.850 --> 02:27:35.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was funny.
[02:27:35.330 --> 02:27:41.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: They were talking about the guy from the New York Times is, well, well, no, no, we'll give him a, you know, hey, the New York Times is okay.
[02:27:41.570 --> 02:27:42.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: We, we can give him an interview.
[02:27:44.510 --> 02:27:46.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, they, they've heard of that.
[02:27:46.370 --> 02:27:46.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.
[02:27:47.330 --> 02:27:48.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Listen, sir, we gotta go.
[02:27:48.570 --> 02:27:48.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[02:27:49.010 --> 02:27:50.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks very much for calling, though.
[02:27:50.270 --> 02:27:53.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, thanks to all the other folks out there that, uh, have called.
[02:27:58.770 --> 02:28:02.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, my apologies to those folks that did not get through.
[02:28:02.390 --> 02:28:04.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: True, I mean, it's, it happens occasionally.
[02:28:04.730 --> 02:28:10.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, I'll be back again next week between the hours of 1 and 3.30, uh, talking about something.
[02:28:10.410 --> 02:28:12.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, who knows what's gonna happen between now and then.
[02:28:12.330 --> 02:28:16.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of course, uh, the Malta Summit, as it were, will be taking place.
[02:28:16.410 --> 02:28:20.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, we might have some, you know, amazing, amazing thing out of that.
[02:28:20.270 --> 02:28:21.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: We might have nothing at all.
[02:28:21.890 --> 02:28:27.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, I do want to see people at the, uh, at the El Salvador rally on, uh, on Saturday.
[02:28:27.370 --> 02:28:28.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Starts at 11 o'clock in the city.
[02:28:29.270 --> 02:28:30.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, just keep listening to B.A.I.
[02:28:30.970 --> 02:28:34.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: and you'll hear more specific details on that, I'm sure.
[02:28:34.570 --> 02:28:37.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, you know, look around other places, too.
[02:28:37.770 --> 02:28:39.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure there'll be, uh, a lot of talk of it.
[02:28:40.210 --> 02:28:51.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's hope we get thousands of people on the street, because this is something, uh, very important to us, to our future, to the people of many other countries, as well as one country in particular.
[02:28:52.690 --> 02:28:55.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, it's, uh, been my pleasure to be here with you.
[02:28:55.650 --> 02:28:58.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel Goldstein, filling in for Tom Whisker.
[02:28:58.330 --> 02:29:01.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks again to everybody that called in, and, uh, we'll see you again soon.
[02:29:01.610 --> 02:29:02.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good night.