Off The Hook - 1989-12-06

[00:03.960 --> 00:08.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: Trust that, you know, you want something to happen and that it's going to happen and be okay.
[00:09.000 --> 00:24.940]  [SPEAKER_22]: Then I think it's start to listen, and really not listen for a certain thing, but really listen in a way that says, I'm going to accept a voice, accept a feeling, and start to just be in tune with yourself.
[00:24.940 --> 00:27.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: When I said, you know, just really start to breathe, I really meant that.
[00:27.700 --> 00:33.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: Just really start to breathe because we don't give ourselves a chance sometimes to do that.
[00:33.240 --> 00:37.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: So it's kind of like starting to breathe and then see what comes up for you.
[00:37.960 --> 00:39.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: Let different ideas come into your mind.
[00:40.140 --> 00:46.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: Meditation, often people say they can't meditate because they're actually trying to force a preconceived idea about what meditation is.
[00:46.440 --> 00:54.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: But meditation can be being quiet and letting the thoughts that want to come in your mind come into your mind and then look at those thoughts.
[00:54.460 --> 00:59.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: Because those may be some of the very things that are interfering with you living your life the way you want to.
[00:59.940 --> 01:00.200]  [SPEAKER_23]: Right.
[01:00.380 --> 01:07.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: Because I've tried some of the self-hypnosis to become more focused and just to learn to concentrate on things.
[01:07.320 --> 01:11.740]  [SPEAKER_23]: Because I always find myself going off on tangents when I'm even reading a book or anything like that.
[01:11.780 --> 01:12.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[01:12.040 --> 01:12.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: I know what you're talking about.
[01:14.520 --> 01:20.820]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I'm not sure if that's a problem or if I need to correct that or what.
[01:21.760 --> 01:26.740]  [SPEAKER_23]: But I've been using these like self-hypnosis tapes to try and correct that.
[01:26.820 --> 01:27.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I find myself resisting.
[01:28.480 --> 01:28.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[01:28.980 --> 01:29.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know what?
[01:29.920 --> 01:31.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: Like I have to get off the air now.
[01:31.400 --> 01:32.960]  [SPEAKER_22]: But I have done some self-hypnosis.
[01:33.080 --> 01:35.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I have found it very effective for certain things.
[01:35.840 --> 01:40.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: So maybe one of the things I'll talk about next week, I'll start off talking about self-hypnosis.
[01:40.400 --> 01:44.840]  [SPEAKER_22]: If you're listening, maybe you could just call in and I'll know and we can go off on that.
[01:44.840 --> 01:47.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: Because I think it has some real useful applications.
[01:48.040 --> 01:51.800]  [SPEAKER_22]: But I do think there's a real method of doing self-hypnosis.
[01:51.840 --> 01:55.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: When I just tried to teach myself that by myself, I found difficulty.
[01:56.020 --> 02:07.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: But after I had experienced it with a person who was trained and did hypnosis, after they had gotten me in the state and I had a perception of what it was like, I could then do it myself.
[02:07.340 --> 02:09.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: And so I currently do that.
[02:09.740 --> 02:13.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: But sometimes we need a guide and sometimes the tape will do that.
[02:13.540 --> 02:14.480]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'm not always sure.
[02:14.540 --> 02:16.580]  [SPEAKER_22]: But let's start off on this next week if you call me.
[02:16.940 --> 02:17.280]  [SPEAKER_28]: Okay, great.
[02:17.540 --> 02:18.580]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, thank you a lot.
[02:18.920 --> 02:19.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, bye-bye.
[02:21.380 --> 02:22.420]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, that's it.
[02:24.040 --> 02:25.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: The next show is ready.
[02:25.540 --> 02:26.080]  [SPEAKER_22]: Tom's not here.
[02:26.200 --> 02:29.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Tom is not going to be here until the craft fair is over.
[02:29.780 --> 02:30.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: Go to the craft fair.
[02:30.800 --> 02:31.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: It started.
[02:31.420 --> 02:33.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think I'm going to try and get by there maybe this weekend.
[02:33.600 --> 02:40.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I just go for the artwork, you know, and the sheer artistry of it because it's very beautiful.
[02:41.760 --> 02:46.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: And last year, you know, somebody gave me something really wonderful like this little cutting board.
[02:46.820 --> 02:49.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: It was very wonderful because I had no money and I just went up there to visit.
[02:49.960 --> 02:51.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I think somebody else may have given me something too.
[02:52.120 --> 02:53.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: It was very, very wonderful.
[02:53.280 --> 02:55.020]  [SPEAKER_22]: They were just very kind people.
[02:55.140 --> 02:58.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: And then I got, of course, a lot of people gave me wonderful spirit and energy.
[02:58.400 --> 02:59.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: So that was very nice.
[02:59.700 --> 03:01.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, I need to get out of here.
[03:01.120 --> 03:02.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: I just want to thank you.
[03:02.660 --> 03:06.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: I have totally, totally enjoyed sharing with you.
[03:06.800 --> 03:10.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I'm glad you, you know, you're part of my sharing and my breathing.
[03:11.360 --> 03:16.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: So in one breath, you know, one breath, one movement.
[03:16.000 --> 03:20.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: We are a common breathing and a common listening.
[03:21.540 --> 03:23.060]  [SPEAKER_22]: Love yourselves well.
[03:23.540 --> 03:26.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: And think well of what you can do for yourself, you know.
[03:27.000 --> 03:29.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: Treat yourself gently and kindly.
[03:29.560 --> 03:31.880]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I will do the same.
[03:31.880 --> 03:33.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I love you all.
[03:33.160 --> 03:33.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: Thank you.
[04:42.130 --> 04:43.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you, Carletter.
[04:43.310 --> 04:46.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's just about four minutes after one o'clock.
[04:46.350 --> 04:51.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Tom on the weaponry program.
[04:52.430 --> 04:54.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is WBAI in New York.
[04:55.030 --> 05:00.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And today we have a couple of special things this morning to talk about.
[05:00.310 --> 05:03.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Actually, one very special thing to talk about, and that is flag burning.
[05:04.030 --> 05:06.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we have two rather special people to hear from.
[05:07.090 --> 05:14.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Mainly Joey Johnson, the guy that started this whole mess by having the Supreme Court rule on his case.
[05:14.330 --> 05:19.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: And also Dave Blalock, who also has been involved in the flag burning controversy.
[05:19.670 --> 05:22.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: We'll be hearing from them in just a moment or two.
[05:22.630 --> 05:26.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then taking your phone calls and having all kinds of other fun, too.
[05:26.350 --> 05:28.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to start off with some music from The Clash.
[16:33.340 --> 16:37.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I still say that's the best album that The Clash put out.
[16:37.360 --> 16:41.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of people say it's too damn political, but so what?
[16:42.020 --> 16:50.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I mean, how can you believe that art doesn't delve into politics, isn't allowed to delve into politics?
[16:50.600 --> 17:06.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Like those who supported the ban on funds to the art exhibit a couple of weeks ago would say, Oh, it's too political, therefore it's not acceptable for a National Endowment for the Arts grant.
[17:08.560 --> 17:16.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Artists have a lot to say about what's going on in the world because they affect the outlook of many people.
[17:16.520 --> 17:18.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: And they also reflect the outlook of many people.
[17:19.300 --> 17:22.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're the voice of you and me.
[17:24.220 --> 17:28.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we heard two songs from the Sandinista record by The Clash.
[17:28.460 --> 17:31.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the one where they put out 36 songs.
[17:31.340 --> 17:35.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: For no particular reason, they just put out a triple album, six songs on each side.
[17:35.500 --> 17:36.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we heard two of them.
[17:36.820 --> 17:39.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: We heard The Equalizer and The Call Up.
[17:39.260 --> 17:46.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I hope, in addition to appreciating the music, you were listening to the lyrics, too, because there's a lot in there.
[17:46.920 --> 17:49.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's all kinds of thoughts.
[17:49.560 --> 17:52.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Probably the most relevant being in The Call Up.
[17:54.200 --> 17:56.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: I guess the message is just to think.
[17:56.660 --> 18:00.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: To think against the mindless nationalist spirit.
[18:02.720 --> 18:05.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't see that as being anti-patriotic at all.
[18:06.700 --> 18:10.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you may think that burning flags is anti-patriotic.
[18:11.280 --> 18:13.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Perhaps it is anti-patriotic.
[18:14.080 --> 18:16.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, yeah, it could be anti-patriotic.
[18:16.380 --> 18:18.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: I could see that kind of interpretation.
[18:20.480 --> 18:22.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: But should it be illegal?
[18:22.620 --> 18:24.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the big question.
[18:24.420 --> 18:29.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the question that the Supreme Court threw at us this past year.
[18:30.720 --> 18:38.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's so funny, because what so many people have lost sight of is what the Supreme Court actually said.
[18:38.360 --> 18:41.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: The Supreme Court agreed with the people that burned the flag.
[18:41.860 --> 18:44.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, they didn't say, Oh, yeah, go out and burn your flags, everyone.
[18:44.940 --> 18:47.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's the right thing to do.
[18:48.080 --> 18:50.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, they said it's part of free speech.
[18:51.980 --> 19:06.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, yeah, you know, that sort of makes sense if you've been living around here long enough and, you know, checking into things like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and all those other things that we started this country out with.
[19:08.180 --> 19:12.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was a difficult decision, and it wasn't a unanimous one by any means.
[19:12.680 --> 19:14.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: But it was a decision nonetheless.
[19:15.580 --> 19:26.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: So it's not a bunch of anarchists and communists and homosexuals and all kinds of other people that mainstream America seems to be so afraid of.
[19:27.080 --> 19:28.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, it wasn't them.
[19:28.420 --> 19:31.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was the Supreme Court that said this.
[19:33.400 --> 19:45.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, these laws that are desperately being passed by panicky members of Congress are laws to get around the Supreme Court ruling.
[19:45.260 --> 19:49.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Not to get around all these radical people that are not patriotic.
[19:49.800 --> 19:51.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, it's to get around the Supreme Court.
[19:53.320 --> 19:55.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are we saying the Supreme Court isn't patriotic?
[19:56.160 --> 19:57.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that's quite a statement.
[19:58.400 --> 19:59.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe they aren't.
[19:59.500 --> 20:06.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe it's all a Russian plot, although the odds of that are becoming less and less every day, it seems.
[20:07.640 --> 20:10.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sure there's someone out there plotting to do this.
[20:11.260 --> 20:13.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, enough of this rambling.
[20:13.520 --> 20:16.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have some special presentations.
[20:18.480 --> 20:19.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: First, a little background.
[20:20.880 --> 20:27.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: I have in my hands the Emergency Committee to Stop the Flag Amendment and Laws newsletter.
[20:28.760 --> 20:34.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: And while it's a mouthful to say all that, the newsletter itself is only about five pages long.
[20:34.380 --> 20:37.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'll give out the address and phone number in a little bit.
[20:39.060 --> 20:46.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: First, to lead into our first piece, which will be a speech given this past Sunday by Dave Blalock.
[20:47.240 --> 20:52.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: This article, entitled DC-4 Arrested on Capitol Steps for Flag Burning.
[20:53.200 --> 20:59.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you may recall that the law was passed on October 28th.
[20:59.120 --> 21:05.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: The law that made it a crime to burn a flag that went above the heads of the Supreme Court.
[21:05.400 --> 21:09.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Which is something I know a lot of us would have liked to have done in the past.
[21:09.740 --> 21:12.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this shows how easy it can be.
[21:12.920 --> 21:16.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: All you have to say is it's not patriotic and you got a law all of a sudden.
[21:16.580 --> 21:30.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because no congressman, no senator, no politician anywhere is going to vote against something that could be construed as making him look anti-patriotic or just not patriotic enough.
[21:30.500 --> 21:31.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a scary thing.
[21:32.060 --> 21:32.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know?
[21:32.820 --> 21:35.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: It scares the hell out of me when people start talking like that.
[21:35.740 --> 21:46.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: And when politicians are panicking and saying, Oh, I know it's a crazy law, but I've got to vote for it or I'll be voted out of office because it'll look like I'm not patriotic.
[21:46.720 --> 21:48.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, that sure brings back memories.
[21:48.580 --> 21:50.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, memories that I've never had personally.
[21:50.440 --> 21:53.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: But if you read a little bit of history, it's in there.
[21:54.820 --> 22:01.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, on October 30th, two days after the flag law went into effect, four people burned flags on the steps of the U.S.
[22:01.680 --> 22:03.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Capitol in Washington, D.C.
[22:03.780 --> 22:09.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: The burning flags were juxtaposed on the news that night with massive demonstrations in East Germany.
[22:10.020 --> 22:12.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the next day, only three people were charged.
[22:13.480 --> 22:20.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: The fourth one was Joey Johnson, the infamous flag burner and now the Supreme Court president, who we'll be hearing from a bit later.
[22:20.840 --> 22:22.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: He was somehow left out.
[22:22.600 --> 22:23.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: He wasn't charged.
[22:26.140 --> 22:32.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, Joey was obviously upset by this and he charged selective non-prosecution.
[22:32.500 --> 22:43.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: And he stated, their attempt to sever me from the case by dropping the charges against me was an act of profound cowardice and desperation on the part of Emperor Bush and the government.
[22:45.140 --> 22:52.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, Ron Kuby, one of the attorneys pointed out, this was a clear attempt to go to the Supreme Court in a way that doesn't embarrass the government.
[22:52.360 --> 22:58.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: The government has to argue that this new statute is not at all like the statute declared unconstitutional in Texas v.
[22:58.480 --> 22:58.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: Johnson.
[22:59.700 --> 23:02.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not going to help them if the defendant in this case is Joey Johnson.
[23:02.920 --> 23:04.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: Same flag, same defendant.
[23:05.460 --> 23:09.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: The three who were charged have stated that Joey is the unindicted fourth defendant.
[23:10.100 --> 23:16.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, those three were Dave Blalock, who we'll be hearing from in just a minute, Sean Eichmann, and Dred Scott.
[23:16.760 --> 23:20.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Dave is with VVAW, which is Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
[23:21.700 --> 23:24.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sean and Dred are revolutionary artists.
[23:24.920 --> 23:28.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: You may recall Dred's piece entitled What is the Proper Way to Display a U.S.
[23:28.940 --> 23:29.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Flag?
[23:29.520 --> 23:33.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: caused an uproar when it was part of a student exhibit last spring.
[23:34.480 --> 23:39.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: The maintain-on-the-floor-or-ground language in the flag law stems from this controversy.
[23:42.040 --> 23:46.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: And Sean Eichmann is a curator of the Helms Degenerate Art Show in New York City.
[23:47.480 --> 23:49.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, you've got to love a title like that.
[23:49.360 --> 23:54.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, God bless him for coming up with that, the Helms Degenerate Art Show.
[23:54.680 --> 23:55.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: I love it.
[23:55.640 --> 24:01.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: And he's also a member of Refuse and Resist, which is a group here in New York City.
[24:03.040 --> 24:10.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, the four are being represented by the Center for Constitutional Rights, who handled Johnson's case at the Supreme Court.
[24:10.980 --> 24:23.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Lawyers William Kunstler, David Cole, Ron Kuby, and Nina Kraut are at the center of a legal strategy which revolves around the motion to dismiss the case based on the unconstitutionality of the Flag Protection Act.
[24:23.560 --> 24:25.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: This motion was filed on December 5th.
[24:25.780 --> 24:31.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: The prosecution's response is due January 12th, and the defendant's reply is due January 17th.
[24:32.000 --> 24:33.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: A decision is expected soon after.
[24:34.420 --> 24:42.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: Either the government or the defendants will appeal that decision to the Supreme Court under the expedited review section of the Flag Law.
[24:44.500 --> 24:50.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, it will be the motion to dismiss, which will be the subject of Supreme Court review, probably this spring.
[24:50.620 --> 25:03.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And as of this newsletter that I'm reading from here, it's unclear if or how the DC case and the Seattle case, which we'll hear a little bit about in a few minutes, will be related in court.
[25:04.000 --> 25:09.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: But in any case, if the Supreme Court strikes down the law, then the charges will be dropped.
[25:09.820 --> 25:14.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: If the Supreme Court upholds the law, then three will go to trial.
[25:16.100 --> 25:22.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's fascinating to follow this kind of thing, and follow it we will here at WBAI on this and other programs.
[25:22.660 --> 25:29.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, what we're about to hear is a short speech from Dave Blalock, who was one of those people that burned the flag.
[25:29.760 --> 25:33.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: He's going to be explaining why he burns flags.
[25:34.400 --> 25:35.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's something to think about.
[25:35.900 --> 25:37.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, these people don't do this for a hobby.
[25:37.920 --> 25:38.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: They have reasons.
[25:38.880 --> 25:40.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: They think about what they're doing.
[25:41.100 --> 25:46.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe not all people who burn flags think about it, but I can guarantee these folks do.
[25:47.920 --> 25:50.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: And whether you agree or not, it's worth listening to.
[25:51.240 --> 25:54.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe you'll understand what's behind it.
[25:54.380 --> 25:58.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then the question we'll be asking when we come back to you, our listeners, is...
[25:59.140 --> 26:00.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is this right?
[26:00.380 --> 26:02.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Should these people be allowed to do this?
[26:02.120 --> 26:06.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is it a legal kind of a thing to burn flags?
[26:09.700 --> 26:14.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: And any other kind of topics that are on your mind?
[26:14.280 --> 26:18.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'd especially like to hear from those people who disagree.
[26:18.260 --> 26:21.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because it's one thing to sit around here and just say, Yeah, this is terrible.
[26:21.900 --> 26:24.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our rights are being infringed upon and all that kind of thing.
[26:24.620 --> 26:28.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, I'd like to hear other views on it.
[26:28.660 --> 26:32.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to see how people think this is fair.
[26:33.060 --> 26:37.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because, obviously, I don't think it's fair that they've made a law to outlaw this.
[26:39.700 --> 26:42.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, for the purpose of those people that won't be with us when we come back.
[26:42.440 --> 26:43.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because it does happen.
[26:43.320 --> 26:44.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the way radio works.
[26:44.460 --> 26:46.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sometimes people just tune out and fall asleep.
[26:46.620 --> 26:47.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Things like that.
[26:47.080 --> 26:51.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm going to give you the address and name of this organization now.
[26:51.160 --> 26:52.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'll give it again later on, too.
[26:52.920 --> 26:54.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: In case you want to become more involved.
[26:54.220 --> 26:58.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's called the Emergency Committee to Stop the Flag Amendment and Laws.
[26:58.660 --> 27:02.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're located at 189 Franklin Street in New York.
[27:02.640 --> 27:04.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: The zip is 10013.
[27:04.780 --> 27:12.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: And their phone number, which you can call now to get more information, is 212-941-5474.
[27:13.920 --> 27:17.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we're going to go now into a speech by Dave Blaylock.
[27:17.680 --> 27:21.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: This was recorded this Sunday at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
[27:21.320 --> 27:30.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we want to thank the people at Stony Brook at the SAB Concerts Committee for helping us to get this recording.
[27:30.340 --> 27:33.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: And also the folks at WUSB Radio out in Stony Brook.
[27:33.800 --> 27:35.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: What we're going to hear is Dave Blaylock.
[27:35.700 --> 27:38.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: And shortly after, we will hear from Joey Johnson.
[27:41.040 --> 27:48.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess a lot of people, since we burnt the flag on the steps of the Capitol, a lot of people said, hey, man, why'd you do that type of thing?
[27:48.920 --> 27:55.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: And people were very surprised at how could a veteran who fought in the wars want to burn the American flag?
[27:55.700 --> 28:04.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because you hear a lot of the opposition out there around a lot of World War II vets and everybody else waving a flag saying it's a disgrace to burn the flag.
[28:05.080 --> 28:07.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd like to say this on that point.
[28:07.220 --> 28:11.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: When I look out here and I see a lot of students out here, and I can remember...
[28:11.540 --> 28:15.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was never a college student myself, but I can remember back when I was 18, 19 years old and everything.
[28:16.380 --> 28:20.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the town I grew up in in western Pennsylvania is a steel mill coal mine town.
[28:20.580 --> 28:23.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I grew up pledging allegiance to the flag.
[28:23.220 --> 28:24.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure everybody else here has.
[28:24.540 --> 28:28.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every morning you'd be in school and you'd do like this religious ritual and you'd pledge allegiance to the flag.
[28:28.780 --> 28:33.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I was pretty much brainwashed into that whole scene right from Jump Street.
[28:33.400 --> 28:34.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Pledge allegiance to the flag.
[28:34.820 --> 28:36.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: And those days we had John Wayne movies.
[28:36.700 --> 28:37.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now they got Rambo type of movies.
[28:38.100 --> 28:39.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we had John Wayne movies.
[28:39.500 --> 28:41.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you get you all psyched up for the whole war move.
[28:41.880 --> 28:43.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I volunteered for Vietnam.
[28:43.740 --> 28:44.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I volunteered for the army.
[28:45.020 --> 28:48.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: I joined in 1968, one year after graduating from high school.
[28:48.920 --> 28:52.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it sort of struck me because I didn't know that much about what was going on in the world.
[28:53.140 --> 28:57.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Being where I grew up at, there was no anti-war demonstrations going on out there.
[28:57.200 --> 29:00.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: We were pretty much isolated from the rest of America and everything that was happening.
[29:01.780 --> 29:05.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: But as soon as I got thrown into the army, and you start seeing everything.
[29:05.800 --> 29:08.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: You got running into people from all over the country.
[29:09.320 --> 29:12.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Black guys from the ghettos who were drafted in from the ghettos.
[29:13.140 --> 29:15.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: You had guys, hillbilly guys from down south.
[29:15.340 --> 29:17.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: You had people from all over being thrown into basic training.
[29:18.080 --> 29:24.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in basic training, my impressions of the flag got much more stronger of hatred for it.
[29:24.580 --> 29:28.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to describe that to you because we went through basic training taught to hate.
[29:28.920 --> 29:36.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the flag flew above buildings where we were constantly brainwashed into hating slopes, gooks, slant eyes.
[29:36.860 --> 29:42.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a whole heavy-duty racist number put on us to hate people of a different color skin and slanted eyes.
[29:42.720 --> 29:56.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: The American flag flew above the bayonet training course where we literally spent at least eight hours throughout basic training sticking bayonets into yellow-skinned slant eyes silhouettes and chanting, kill, kill, kill without mercy.
[29:56.860 --> 29:59.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: That type of a number was a heavy-duty coming on my head.
[29:59.580 --> 30:05.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And whenever people started thinking of rebellion in basic training, they had the military, they had a stockade at Fort Jackson.
[30:05.760 --> 30:10.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a military prison there for anybody who spoke out against it or went against the game plan.
[30:10.400 --> 30:13.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: The stockade was right there and the American flag flew right above there.
[30:14.040 --> 30:20.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: You were incarcerated and sentenced up to six months of hard labor for rebelling or speaking out against the U.S.
[30:20.600 --> 30:22.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: war efforts that was going on in Vietnam.
[30:22.580 --> 30:28.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: So pretty much I went through the whole number there, basically kept my mouth shut, and went right off into Vietnam.
[30:29.460 --> 30:39.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: When I got into Vietnam and I landed, it was an interesting thing, when I landed at Benoit Air Base in 1969, February of 69, it was during the Tet holidays over there.
[30:39.160 --> 30:42.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Tet Offensive was a big number that happened the year before, so everybody was very nervous.
[30:42.820 --> 30:46.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was various actions going on in 69.
[30:46.540 --> 30:50.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd get off the plane in Benoit Air Base, and get off the plane, there's a horrible stench in the air.
[30:51.080 --> 30:52.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: I always remember this was hot.
[30:52.500 --> 30:54.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the middle of winter time when I took off from the United States.
[30:54.820 --> 31:02.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was winter, you land there, and it was like almost 100 degrees out, and it was very hot, humid, and the most horrible smell was floating in the air.
[31:02.660 --> 31:10.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'd get hustled into one Quanson Hut area where they were going to throw us on a bus, and I asked one of the guys who had been there for a while, I said, hey man, what's that smell?
[31:10.600 --> 31:12.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: He goes, hey, that's burning flesh.
[31:12.920 --> 31:21.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're smelling human flesh, burnt flesh that's been going on, because they just napalmed right outside the gates of Benoit Air Base, trying to blow up Viet Cong.
[31:21.440 --> 31:23.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Supposedly Viet Cong were operating in the area.
[31:23.620 --> 31:28.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you could smell the burnt flesh, and I always remember the American flag hanging there, and the burnt flesh smell.
[31:29.340 --> 31:35.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then they took us from Benoit Air Base, and they took us and put us in a place called Long Bend.
[31:35.180 --> 31:36.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a main processing area.
[31:36.880 --> 31:39.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: From there we were sent out to the various duties we were going on.
[31:40.620 --> 31:42.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the same types of images kept coming.
[31:42.880 --> 31:46.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see the American flag was everywhere there too, flapping above all the stuff.
[31:46.360 --> 31:53.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was pretty scared on it, but I started seeing a lot of the other soldiers that were there, the black guys, the white guys, all these guys, people wearing peace symbols and stuff.
[31:53.680 --> 31:55.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, hey, well, that's pretty interesting, man.
[31:55.480 --> 31:57.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: What are you guys wearing peace symbols for?
[31:58.060 --> 32:01.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I still wasn't... I was still pretty scared.
[32:01.380 --> 32:03.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: They transferred me to my base camp.
[32:03.600 --> 32:06.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a small base camp called Long Thon.
[32:06.480 --> 32:11.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I get on my base camp, and my duty I was assigned to as a...
[32:11.940 --> 32:16.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: I ended up in a security platoon doing short-range patrols, that type of number.
[32:16.580 --> 32:18.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Guard duty, short-range patrols.
[32:18.420 --> 32:21.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And my platoon sergeant was a black dude from the Bay Area.
[32:22.200 --> 32:23.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: He basically said, listen, man.
[32:23.460 --> 32:25.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: He says, we ain't here to kill no Viet Cong.
[32:25.100 --> 32:25.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're here to survive.
[32:26.220 --> 32:29.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: He says, if you want to be gung-ho, he says, you're gonna die quick.
[32:29.980 --> 32:30.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, hey, man, not me.
[32:31.040 --> 32:31.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, I'm scared.
[32:31.840 --> 32:33.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just go with the flow on this stuff.
[32:34.240 --> 32:39.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And pretty much most of the guys involved in my whole camp there, people were pretty much anti-war.
[32:40.200 --> 32:40.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It struck me...
[32:40.840 --> 32:43.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: At first it struck me kind of, wow, this is...
[32:43.100 --> 32:46.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I got into it, but at first I said, wait, what the hell's going on here?
[32:46.340 --> 32:58.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And everybody, when you see the massive amounts of destruction that went on in that country, the massive B-52 runs where whole villages and towns and whole areas of the country were totally destroyed.
[32:59.280 --> 33:00.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: You had...
[33:01.140 --> 33:03.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Agent Orange was dumped all over the place.
[33:03.720 --> 33:08.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the areas, a lot of it was completely inhabitable, where you couldn't even...
[33:08.960 --> 33:11.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing could grow on it or anything like that.
[33:11.480 --> 33:16.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you could see all of this stuff there was what our country was doing to these people over there.
[33:16.960 --> 33:19.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Viet Cong in my area, we...
[33:19.620 --> 33:21.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: In my camp, we hired...
[33:21.100 --> 33:22.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: We hired what they call house girls.
[33:22.920 --> 33:23.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: We hired them.
[33:23.500 --> 33:24.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: We picked them up in the local village.
[33:24.840 --> 33:26.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: We brought them on our camp during the daytime.
[33:26.760 --> 33:28.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these girls were basically hired.
[33:28.380 --> 33:29.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Each guy paid five bucks a month.
[33:29.860 --> 33:32.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what they did was they did your laundry for you and that type of whole thing.
[33:33.120 --> 33:36.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can always remember when I come back, we come back from night patrol one day.
[33:37.060 --> 33:38.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: When we went on patrol, we called it...
[33:38.820 --> 33:40.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to be on search and destroy missions.
[33:40.680 --> 33:41.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: We call it search and avoid.
[33:42.100 --> 33:46.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'd go out in one part in a rubber plantation, sit down for eight hours, smoke pot, and come back again at the end of the day.
[33:47.120 --> 33:48.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: But one day we came back in.
[33:48.800 --> 33:50.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the house girls were sitting...
[33:50.480 --> 33:51.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: This was in August of 69.
[33:51.940 --> 33:53.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: The house girls were sitting there crying.
[33:53.460 --> 33:54.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't know what was going on.
[33:54.440 --> 33:57.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought maybe one of the guys was playing grab ass with them or something like that.
[33:58.020 --> 34:01.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because generally we had a good rapport with the women in our...
[34:01.140 --> 34:02.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody was screwing around with them.
[34:02.820 --> 34:03.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they were...
[34:03.480 --> 34:06.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: You had just like a friendly type of relationship with them.
[34:06.140 --> 34:07.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they were crying and crying.
[34:07.440 --> 34:08.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't figure out what was going on on it.
[34:09.300 --> 34:12.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: So then what happened was I finally got one girl to talk to me.
[34:13.000 --> 34:13.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, what are you crying?
[34:13.660 --> 34:15.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: She says, Ho Chi Minh died.
[34:15.560 --> 34:16.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, Ho Chi Minh?
[34:16.360 --> 34:17.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's just a communist.
[34:17.160 --> 34:17.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: What are you crying about?
[34:18.260 --> 34:19.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: She goes, you don't understand.
[34:19.400 --> 34:22.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Ho Chi Minh is the father of our country.
[34:22.920 --> 34:24.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And she tells me this whole history.
[34:24.300 --> 34:26.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: She knew more about American history than I did.
[34:26.300 --> 34:31.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: She says, in your country, when you had your revolution, you only had one-third of your people were back in the revolution.
[34:31.760 --> 34:32.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: One-third were in the middle of them.
[34:32.860 --> 34:33.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't care who won it.
[34:33.800 --> 34:34.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And one-third back the British.
[34:35.100 --> 34:40.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: She says, in our country, we got 75% of the population is back in the revolution kicking out foreign powers.
[34:40.240 --> 34:42.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that really struck me hard on that deal.
[34:43.700 --> 34:45.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, I'm going on an honest thing.
[34:45.640 --> 34:46.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll just tell you this.
[34:46.400 --> 34:53.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: My lessons that was learned in Vietnam was it was heavy-duty and the stuff that happened to the people over there and the massive destruction and everything else that happened.
[34:53.960 --> 35:01.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I come back from Vietnam, I was stationed at Fort McClone because I still had almost 14 months to do before I got out of the army.
[35:01.300 --> 35:03.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was stationed in the army there.
[35:03.440 --> 35:07.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And on these bases in the stateside, there was a massive GI movement form.
[35:07.520 --> 35:15.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was like over 300 underground newspapers being published by soldiers all around the United States and Europe and in Asia at that time.
[35:15.820 --> 35:17.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anti-war newspapers published by soldiers.
[35:17.780 --> 35:19.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I joined right in with that.
[35:19.820 --> 35:24.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: And immediately, the army was doing everything they could to stop us from speaking out.
[35:24.840 --> 35:25.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Threatening us with jail.
[35:26.080 --> 35:28.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: We were not allowed to have newspapers on us, anything like that.
[35:29.280 --> 35:31.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Constantly being called in for interrogation.
[35:31.160 --> 35:33.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: I always remember being called in for interrogation by military intelligence.
[35:34.140 --> 35:40.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the American flag is waving right above there and they're saying, you can't do this and you can't say that and you can't write this and you can't do that.
[35:40.580 --> 35:42.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Constantly saying you can't do all this stuff.
[35:43.240 --> 35:50.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: I went through that whole scene by 14 months and I became very much more involved in the whole anti-war movement while I was still in the army.
[35:50.540 --> 35:54.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: When I got out of the army, I always remember very distinctly the American flag.
[35:55.140 --> 35:57.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: I joined this organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
[35:58.060 --> 36:02.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was literally almost 80,000 members at this time in 1971.
[36:04.120 --> 36:06.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: You had...veterans had thrown their medals away back at the White House.
[36:06.980 --> 36:14.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: 2,000 veterans gathered in April of 71 and massively in front of the White House and threw back their war medals and everything else in disgust with what the U.S.
[36:14.760 --> 36:17.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: was doing in Vietnam and demanding an end to the war.
[36:18.120 --> 36:20.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we marched in New York City.
[36:20.960 --> 36:23.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was what they called a home with honor parade.
[36:23.240 --> 36:25.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Nixon was the president at that time.
[36:25.200 --> 36:30.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he called for a home with honor parade in which veterans...to honor the Vietnam veterans.
[36:31.380 --> 36:32.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a huge parade.
[36:32.660 --> 36:34.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: They brought in all these military units.
[36:34.360 --> 36:40.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: They brought in army units, you know, Navy, Marine Corps, all this type of stuff to march in this big huge parade.
[36:40.440 --> 36:44.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only...plus the American Legion, the VFW, and a lot of World War II vets.
[36:44.780 --> 36:51.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only Vietnam veterans that marched in that parade as a political grouping was this organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
[36:51.960 --> 36:56.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we marched up Fifth Avenue, up to 72nd Street where there's a reviewing stand.
[36:57.480 --> 37:02.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And as we marched up there, all the people crying along the streets were cheering us Vietnam veterans.
[37:02.080 --> 37:06.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: We had in front of our main banner, a huge banner we carried leading this contingent.
[37:07.000 --> 37:07.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was no honor.
[37:07.720 --> 37:09.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: No honor here, no honor there.
[37:09.960 --> 37:11.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: No honor in what we did in Vietnam.
[37:11.880 --> 37:13.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we were cheered and cheered.
[37:13.160 --> 37:17.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of cheers of people, you know, giving us the fist and high sign and everything like that.
[37:17.280 --> 37:18.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Until we got to the reviewing stand.
[37:19.160 --> 37:23.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Up by the reviewing stand, there were several hundred people there, waving the American flag.
[37:23.940 --> 37:26.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these people were leaning over and spitting on us.
[37:26.880 --> 37:30.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was literally insulted and spit on by these people waving the goddamn flag.
[37:30.560 --> 37:31.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I always remember that.
[37:31.720 --> 37:33.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody can ever change that in my mind.
[37:33.280 --> 37:34.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know what that flag was.
[37:34.640 --> 37:38.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these people were waving that thing and spitting on us because we were anti-war.
[37:38.980 --> 37:44.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And all the officers and dignitaires on the reviewing stand turned around and did an about face on us.
[37:44.700 --> 37:46.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: They turned their back to us on a thing.
[37:46.520 --> 37:48.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that was... we understood, but they might do this.
[37:48.180 --> 37:53.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when you had all these people in a population waving the flag and spitting on us, that type of thing stuck in my memory.
[37:53.680 --> 37:57.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, when people ask me why I burnt the flag, that was part of it.
[37:57.380 --> 38:04.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was those experiences that I went through, from being in basic training, being in Vietnam, after Vietnam, and as an anti-war veteran out there.
[38:05.060 --> 38:10.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I look around and I see, nowadays, since that whole time period, I've had the flag come down on me.
[38:10.860 --> 38:13.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: I got a job in a post office in the mid-70s.
[38:13.940 --> 38:16.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we had a strike in 1978.
[38:17.000 --> 38:19.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And all of a sudden, the government says, you're not allowed to have a strike.
[38:19.800 --> 38:21.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's illegal for postal workers to strike.
[38:21.840 --> 38:22.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it is Poland.
[38:22.800 --> 38:24.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess Polish workers can't strike either.
[38:25.100 --> 38:34.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they brought out the federal marshals come and kick down the door of my house one night to try to serve arrest warrants on us because I was one of the strike leaders in the place.
[38:34.380 --> 38:35.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a whole heavy duty number.
[38:36.160 --> 38:40.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And all those people, the federal marshals and all of them, all wearing the American flag again.
[38:40.340 --> 38:45.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: So when people talk about constitutional rights and freedoms, I know that the American flag does not stand for that.
[38:46.300 --> 38:48.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: The American flag stands for suppression of people.
[38:48.400 --> 38:53.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where I grew up at in western Pennsylvania, the area out there, I still got family, friends that live out there.
[38:53.920 --> 38:55.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right now, you've got a strike going on.
[38:55.600 --> 38:58.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Pittston Coal Company has been on strike for eight months.
[38:58.560 --> 39:01.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a state of martial law in that whole area of Virginia.
[39:02.580 --> 39:05.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thousands and thousands of people have been arrested under these laws.
[39:05.440 --> 39:07.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're not allowed to even drive in certain areas.
[39:07.360 --> 39:08.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything is under martial law.
[39:08.760 --> 39:09.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's federal marshals.
[39:10.060 --> 39:10.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're wearing the flag.
[39:11.000 --> 39:13.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: The flag is standing over all the suppression that's happening there.
[39:13.640 --> 39:21.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: In New Brunswick, New Jersey, just recently, for the black people living in the ghettos and stuff, there's even the flag stands for more repression and stuff there.
[39:21.880 --> 39:31.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Under the guise of war on drugs, you have local police, drug task force, smashing down the whole top floor of an apartment.
[39:32.180 --> 39:33.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: This was about two, three months ago.
[39:34.120 --> 39:40.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Went through all these huge big buildings where people were forced to live in.
[39:40.400 --> 39:42.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: The whole top floor, they kicked down all the apartments.
[39:42.880 --> 39:45.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: They found two joints out of like 40 apartment doors they kicked down.
[39:46.000 --> 39:49.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they're terrorizing people all over the place under the guise of this war on drugs.
[39:49.760 --> 39:53.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're going and they have armed police running around all the time, beating the shit out of people.
[39:53.680 --> 39:54.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything like that is happening.
[39:55.200 --> 39:57.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: So to me, that's why I burnt the flag.
[39:57.260 --> 39:58.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I burnt the flag for what it stands for.
[39:59.080 --> 40:03.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I burnt the flag because I think people got to be opening their minds up to what's happening in America today.
[40:04.160 --> 40:09.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: When the government come out and try to force patriotism down people's throats, something is seriously wrong there.
[40:09.420 --> 40:11.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you better examine it carefully.
[40:11.020 --> 40:12.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's all I've got to say.
[40:26.630 --> 40:31.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: The eastern world, it is exploding.
[40:31.910 --> 40:35.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Violence flaring, bullets loading.
[40:35.510 --> 40:39.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're old enough to kill, but not for voting.
[40:40.230 --> 40:44.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: You don't believe in war, but what's that gun you're toting?
[40:44.590 --> 40:48.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: And even the Jordan River has bodies floating.
[40:48.510 --> 40:55.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you tell me over and over and over again, my friend.
[40:56.490 --> 41:02.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
[41:09.120 --> 41:13.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Don't you understand what I'm trying to say?
[41:13.260 --> 41:17.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Can't you feel the fears I'm feeling today?
[41:17.620 --> 41:21.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: If the button is pushed, there's no running away.
[41:21.680 --> 41:25.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: There'll be no one to save with a world in a grave.
[41:25.620 --> 41:27.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Take a look around you, boy.
[41:28.240 --> 41:29.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's bound to scare you, boy.
[41:30.120 --> 41:37.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you tell me over and over and over again, my friend.
[41:37.300 --> 41:43.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
[41:53.790 --> 41:56.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, my blood's so mad.
[41:56.910 --> 41:58.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Feels like coagulating.
[41:59.170 --> 42:02.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sitting here just contemplating.
[42:03.330 --> 42:05.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can't twist the truth.
[42:05.390 --> 42:07.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: It knows no regulation.
[42:07.530 --> 42:11.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Handful of senators don't pass legislation.
[42:11.610 --> 42:14.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: And marches alone can't bring integration.
[42:14.820 --> 42:19.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: When human respect is disintegrating.
[42:19.880 --> 42:23.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: This whole crazy world is just too frustrating.
[42:23.720 --> 42:30.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you tell me over and over and over again, my friend.
[42:31.460 --> 42:36.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
[42:47.900 --> 42:52.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Think of all the hate there is in red China.
[42:52.020 --> 42:56.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama.
[42:56.570 --> 43:00.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ah, you may leave here for four days in space.
[43:00.700 --> 43:04.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: But when you return, it's the same old place.
[43:04.840 --> 43:06.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: The pounding of the drums.
[43:06.960 --> 43:08.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: The pride and disgrace.
[43:08.360 --> 43:12.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace.
[43:12.920 --> 43:17.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hate your next door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace.
[43:17.760 --> 43:25.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: And tell me over and over and over and over again, my friend.
[43:25.220 --> 43:30.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
[43:32.340 --> 43:38.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
[43:47.120 --> 43:53.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: First of all, sir, what is your principal criticism of the way that we have conducted our war in Korea?
[43:54.780 --> 44:06.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's my opinion that we should fight the war to win in Korea, rather than try to settle it at the diplomatic table, which is impossible when you're dealing with Russia.
[44:07.020 --> 44:12.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, Mr. Van Zandt, would you extend your will to win so far as to include the atomic bomb?
[44:13.980 --> 44:15.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Very definitely, Dr. Peterson.
[44:15.920 --> 44:22.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've always been a firm believer that we should use the atomic bomb, not only in Korea, but north of the Yalu River in Manchuria.
[44:23.220 --> 44:30.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think that there are several targets in northern Korea we could use.
[44:30.740 --> 44:33.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: That is, we could destroy them with the atomic bomb.
[44:33.140 --> 44:34.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: We could destroy them and contaminate them.
[44:39.260 --> 45:11.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: There will soon be an end to this cold and wicked war When those hard-headed communists get what they're looking for Only one thing that will stop them, and they're a ferocious fund If General MacArthur drops an atomic bomb Now, over in Korea, our boys have fought to fail But they died just like heroes And bit them in a shot and shield They had their hands tied behind them And were murdered by the
[45:11.140 --> 45:33.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: storm By those dirty-minded communists Who started this sad war They'll be fired just in the middle Flying all around And radioactivity will turn into the ground If there's any commies left They'll be all on the run Oh,
[45:53.460 --> 46:10.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: hard-headed Joe will be feeling mighty blue When he finds out he's bitten off more than he can chew For suppression will be ended and the job will be well done If General MacArthur drops a atomic bomb
[46:28.760 --> 46:50.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, MacArthur has the power to stop those murderous things And he'll make them sorry for their underhanded schemes Just leave it to the General, for he really has the nerve To give those no-good Communists just what they deserve They'll be fire, dust and metal,
[46:50.280 --> 46:54.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: flyin' all around And the red...
[46:59.390 --> 47:08.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Any commies left, they'll be all on the run If General MacArthur drops a atomic bomb
[47:12.760 --> 47:15.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's in the name of American patriotism there.
[47:16.360 --> 47:25.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: That was, uh, Jackie Dole and his Pickled Peppers, recorded, uh, in 1951, thereabouts, when they dropped the atomic bomb.
[47:26.100 --> 47:28.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: It comes from, uh, a compilation of such songs.
[47:29.160 --> 47:31.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: The soundtrack to Atomic Cafe.
[47:32.100 --> 47:36.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, I always thought that was, uh, both a terrific film and a terrific record for one reason.
[47:37.480 --> 47:38.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: For one very good reason.
[47:38.920 --> 47:48.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: There was never any person on there narrating, saying these people are wrong Instead, they just let them say it themselves.
[47:48.780 --> 48:06.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: They let them spout their rhetoric and, uh now 30 or so years later, 40 years later we can see at least some of us can see that these people were crazy wanting to drop atomic bombs everywhere I mean, yeah, I know there's people around today that still want to do that,
[48:06.100 --> 48:25.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: but, uh, I think for the most part, we realize that that's just not, uh, the righteous thing to do when you, uh, look upon the entire world as, uh, as a community and, uh, fortunately Truman won that battle with, uh, his commanding general Douglas MacArthur um,
[48:26.700 --> 48:44.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: for those that, uh, aren't verse, or for those that just want to remember in, uh, 1950 the Korean War wasn't going all that well for, uh, the Allies and, um, a lot of Americans wanted to drop the atom bomb on North Korea and on China for that matter why not,
[48:44.300 --> 48:44.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: you know?
[48:44.740 --> 48:50.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, it worked, uh, it worked in Japan stopped that war so it could work anywhere you know?
[48:50.980 --> 49:07.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe even if we have some skirmishes you know, with, uh, with students or minorities in this country you know, just, just as a warning but, uh, MacArthur wanted to wanted to use the atomic bomb and, uh, Truman didn't want to use the atomic bomb so the story goes and,
[49:07.420 --> 49:32.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: of course, MacArthur was eventually dumped by Truman and that's the way it wound up we also heard from Barry McGuire and, uh, the Eve of Destruction which, uh, kind of put into music some of the things that, uh, Dave Blalock was saying beforehand, Dave Blalock who had given a speech at the State University of New York at Stony Brook this past Sunday as to why he burned the American flag and why he
[49:32.360 --> 49:50.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: will continue to burn the American flag despite the law that was passed on October 28th saying that that is, in fact, a crime and, uh, we're going to take phone calls now for the next, uh, period 279-3400 area code 212 and, uh, I'd like to know what, uh,
[49:51.160 --> 49:52.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: what people out there have to think.
[49:52.680 --> 50:07.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, no long speeches please, just, uh, a general overview as to whether or not this, uh, this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion and, as I said before I'd like especially to hear from people that think, uh, you know, think other things than what what I'm saying here.
[50:07.880 --> 50:13.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, if you want to perhaps bring up some points that I might have missed or something like that.
[50:13.600 --> 50:18.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[50:18.780 --> 50:23.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, this piece, uh, from, uh, the same newsletter I was looking at before.
[50:23.920 --> 50:33.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: On November 29th, seven people were indicted in Seattle for their participation in the Festival of Defiance where flags were burned the moment the flag law went into effect.
[50:34.160 --> 50:43.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: This event was beamed out over the national media where millions saw 500 people led by Vietnam veterans against the war anti-imperialist in parentheses.
[50:43.440 --> 50:44.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what the AI stands for.
[50:45.140 --> 50:53.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, when they saw the Vietnam veterans against the war and 500 people symbolically napalm 1,000 flags at midnight on October 28th.
[50:53.600 --> 50:59.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: One national evening news broadcast stated, last night those who once fought for the flag burned it.
[50:59.720 --> 51:09.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: This open defiance of the flag law and especially the role of veterans poked a big hole in the lie that blind obedience to country is the order of the day in the USA.
[51:10.600 --> 51:11.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, our phone number.
[51:11.740 --> 51:14.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm surprised by the small number of calls we're getting here.
[51:14.460 --> 51:16.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, I thought this was a major issue.
[51:17.260 --> 51:18.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400 Call us now.
[51:19.020 --> 51:23.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Regardless of your opinion, just call us to tell us how you feel about this issue.
[51:23.400 --> 51:24.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: If it affects you at all.
[51:24.900 --> 51:31.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: If there's a bigger picture it might, uh, it might paint for the rest of the country or for other countries.
[51:32.080 --> 51:40.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, none of the seven charged with Vietnam veterans even though Randy Roland of VVAW had announced to the press that he was defying the law and had personally begun the flag burning.
[51:41.120 --> 51:43.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: Another case of selective non-prosecution.
[51:43.700 --> 51:51.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: It seems that the government wants to avoid the truth that many veterans oppose mandatory patriotism because of their experiences with where it can lead.
[51:51.620 --> 51:58.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: The seven indictees have been charged under the flag law and also with, uh, destruction of government property.
[51:58.500 --> 52:04.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: This stems from the now-famous photo of the demonstrators running a burning flag up a post office flagpole.
[52:05.620 --> 52:10.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Four of the seven haven't even been identified yet except for videos taken by the police.
[52:10.800 --> 52:18.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Three John Does and one Jane Doe are at large and the concept that we are all Jane slash John Doe is spreading.
[52:18.500 --> 52:22.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: At a press conference immediately after the indictments all the speakers wore I.M.
[52:22.620 --> 52:24.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: Jane slash John Doe armbands.
[52:24.920 --> 52:29.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Motions in the case are due December 21st and a trial date has been set for February 5th.
[52:29.820 --> 52:36.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: Progressive lawyers in Seattle have rushed to the defense and will be appealing based on the unconstitutionality of the flag law.
[52:36.340 --> 52:41.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, this is from the newsletter of the Emergency Committee to stop the flag amendment and laws.
[52:41.620 --> 52:50.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, whether you agree with them or not as to exactly what they say as far as imperialist and, uh, this and that, I think the issue is a bit bigger than that.
[52:51.160 --> 52:53.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I know a lot of people even, even conservatives.
[52:53.680 --> 52:59.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, I do talk to conservatives now and then who think that this is a very dangerous precedent to be setting.
[52:59.400 --> 52:59.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think?
[53:00.240 --> 53:01.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[53:02.300 --> 53:02.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[53:03.420 --> 53:04.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, WBAI?
[53:04.520 --> 53:05.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what it is.
[53:05.360 --> 53:06.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're on, you're on the air.
[53:06.180 --> 53:06.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[53:06.620 --> 53:06.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[53:07.340 --> 53:11.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, yeah, I was, I was kind of wondering and thinking about this whole thing.
[53:11.520 --> 53:12.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I was in, uh, Vietnam.
[53:13.080 --> 53:14.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was with the 101st Airborne Division.
[53:14.880 --> 53:15.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: That was a long time ago.
[53:16.500 --> 53:20.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, most of what that guy said is, uh, pretty accurate, I guess.
[53:20.820 --> 53:26.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, but, uh, about burning the flag, I mean, uh, like the flag is like a symbol.
[53:26.820 --> 53:29.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's kind of like an idea and you can't burn an idea.
[53:29.940 --> 53:31.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can burn the material.
[53:32.380 --> 53:32.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[53:33.020 --> 53:34.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't really burn the flag.
[53:34.600 --> 53:36.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I don't, I don't see why, you know.
[53:36.720 --> 53:38.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, like you said, it's a symbol.
[53:38.340 --> 53:38.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[53:38.720 --> 53:40.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: And burning the flag is a symbol in itself.
[53:41.560 --> 53:42.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's true, I suppose.
[53:43.000 --> 53:43.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's another symbol.
[53:43.920 --> 53:44.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[53:44.540 --> 53:48.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, uh, why, why do you think people are so incensed?
[53:48.360 --> 53:49.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or maybe people are incensed.
[53:49.420 --> 53:52.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe it's just the politicians that are getting in a flurry about this.
[53:52.460 --> 53:53.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think it is?
[53:53.780 --> 53:54.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: What sparked this?
[53:55.000 --> 53:58.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why are we so desperate and why do you think we need to do this?
[54:00.580 --> 54:10.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, um, well, I think that we've become, you know, we're just, people are just holding on to, uh, their beliefs because everything's getting eroded anyway.
[54:11.240 --> 54:13.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's just, they've just become sort of desperate.
[54:13.820 --> 54:15.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: What's becoming eroded?
[54:16.840 --> 54:19.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I don't know.
[54:20.120 --> 54:27.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, you know, after, after Vietnam, I went, I went to Europe and stayed there for about, uh, for about 12 years.
[54:27.040 --> 54:34.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just was sort of disgusted with, uh, the government, um, and, uh, you know, society in general.
[54:36.420 --> 54:39.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I just, you know, I just didn't believe anything anymore.
[54:41.420 --> 54:42.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, I don't know.
[54:43.040 --> 54:46.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, wait, do you think this is a, uh, a dangerous precedent?
[54:46.880 --> 54:48.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think it's going to make any significant difference?
[54:49.060 --> 54:51.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I don't, I don't, I really don't think it means anything at all.
[54:52.080 --> 54:53.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's so stupid.
[54:53.900 --> 54:56.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: What, the whole, uh, furor over the issue or the issue itself?
[54:57.040 --> 54:58.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: The issue itself, I think it's stupid.
[54:59.080 --> 54:59.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[54:59.320 --> 55:01.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you, I mean, do you think there should have been a law in the first place?
[55:01.660 --> 55:04.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't really, you know, it's just kind of a, for me, it's kind of amusing.
[55:05.740 --> 55:08.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yeah, and that's, you, you, you touch upon an important point there.
[55:08.960 --> 55:10.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: Never lose sight of the humor in a situation.
[55:11.180 --> 55:13.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's no point getting all poker-faced about it.
[55:13.400 --> 55:15.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, we can have a lot of fun with this issue.
[55:15.700 --> 55:20.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: We can make fools of the people that, uh, that, that disagree with us one way or the other.
[55:21.040 --> 55:25.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, you know, let's, let's at least approach it in that, in that way.
[55:25.480 --> 55:32.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, yes, it's a serious issue, but, uh, you know, let's not, uh, get so serious about it that we lose sight of, of the rest of our lives.
[55:32.580 --> 55:34.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know, some people have done that already.
[55:34.160 --> 55:48.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: The guy who made that speech, I think he, he, he has, he has a point in that is that, uh, um, uh, the, the, the flag doesn't represent what it used to represent.
[55:48.580 --> 56:06.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, uh, and, and, I don't know, you know, he goes to, to Vietnam, and he's, he, he sees these flags and the stinking, smell, smell the, uh, the flesh and everything, you know, it's just, you know, we're, we're brainwashed in school, uh, you know, in our early years to believe one thing and then,
[56:06.460 --> 56:08.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: uh, we find out it's not that at all.
[56:08.780 --> 56:10.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, well, you know, look at it this way.
[56:10.300 --> 56:14.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, maybe when you say we're brainwashed in school, that might turn off some people, but look at it in another way.
[56:14.740 --> 56:19.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: You go to school when you're, what, four or five years old and you say the Pledge of Allegiance.
[56:19.300 --> 56:21.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, I didn't know what the hell the Pledge of Allegiance meant.
[56:21.680 --> 56:23.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: I just said it because I was supposed to say it.
[56:23.760 --> 56:27.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And how can they expect any four or five year old kid to know what the Pledge of Allegiance means?
[56:27.400 --> 56:29.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, to really understand what it's all about.
[56:29.660 --> 56:33.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, if there's no way the kids can understand what it's all about, why are they saying it?
[56:33.960 --> 56:35.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's to get you in the habit.
[56:35.880 --> 56:36.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[56:36.220 --> 56:41.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then by the time, you know, you reach an adult type of life, you say, what was that all about anyway?
[56:41.460 --> 56:41.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[56:41.780 --> 56:57.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, it's, it's a very subtle, maybe not such a subtle form of brainwashing, but it's, you know, if you get them to do one little thing over and over again, they, you know, you just, you know, become like a, like a part of the sheep.
[56:57.800 --> 56:57.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[56:58.000 --> 57:04.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And you associate it with something good, like, you know, well, I guess maybe school isn't all that good for most people, but, you know, something not harmful.
[57:04.420 --> 57:06.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're not beating people while they're saying the Pledge of Allegiance.
[57:06.780 --> 57:15.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, it's become sort of incorporated in your life as, well, you know, it's that thing I did in childhood and that's, you know, it's just, saying the Pledge of Allegiance is what kids do.
[57:15.980 --> 57:18.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: And are we going to outlaw something that kids do?
[57:18.320 --> 57:19.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's sick, you know?
[57:20.020 --> 57:21.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's sort of a parallel there.
[57:22.040 --> 57:24.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, I just don't see why it's necessary.
[57:24.460 --> 57:31.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: If this is the greatest country in the earth, you know, as we keep saying to ourselves, why do we need to have a law to protect it from its own people?
[57:33.580 --> 57:34.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[57:34.540 --> 57:36.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think we're the biggest country in the earth, or one of the biggest.
[57:36.920 --> 57:38.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, of course, that's a matter of opinion.
[57:39.160 --> 57:46.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: But it's something that is constantly heaped at us by the media, by, you know, by the government, and by certain rednecks and pickup trucks.
[57:47.800 --> 57:50.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: But it's, you know, it's something we should be asking.
[57:50.280 --> 57:57.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: And how can you call somebody non-patriotic for wanting to talk about this, wanting to bring it, you know, to the front and debate it?
[57:57.380 --> 58:02.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's, you know, by calling somebody anti-American for that, you are, in fact, being anti-American.
[58:02.240 --> 58:02.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Not you, of course.
[58:03.020 --> 58:04.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: You, you know, in a third-person sense.
[58:04.680 --> 58:05.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[58:05.380 --> 58:05.740]  Yeah.
[58:05.880 --> 58:06.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm going to go to some more calls.
[58:06.860 --> 58:07.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling, sir.
[58:07.720 --> 58:07.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Bye-bye.
[58:08.160 --> 58:08.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[58:08.940 --> 58:10.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[58:10.540 --> 58:11.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[58:11.620 --> 58:11.900]  [SPEAKER_24]: Good morning.
[58:11.940 --> 58:12.400]  [SPEAKER_24]: How are you tonight?
[58:12.520 --> 58:12.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[58:12.820 --> 58:13.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: How are you?
[58:13.460 --> 58:13.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay.
[58:14.020 --> 58:18.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: I think that this whole issue just shows the general ignorance of the public in our country.
[58:18.820 --> 58:19.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: In what way?
[58:19.800 --> 58:20.160]  [SPEAKER_24]: In what way?
[58:20.240 --> 58:28.760]  [SPEAKER_24]: The fact that people are sitting here and they're saying how great America is, and that if you're burning the flag, then you're just, you're doing such a terrible crime to the country.
[58:28.760 --> 58:35.160]  [SPEAKER_24]: But in reality, burning the flag, the whole thing that makes America great is for people, they can do whatever they want to do.
[58:35.620 --> 58:40.180]  [SPEAKER_24]: And that's what the whole flag stands for, for the idea that people have their freedoms and their decisions to do whatever they want to do.
[58:40.300 --> 58:44.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do whatever they want to do within a certain amount of reason, but I see what you're saying.
[58:44.160 --> 58:46.200]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's not causing harm to anybody else, you know?
[58:46.520 --> 58:59.020]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, you can do, basically, I think there are a lot of issues in America today which are really sensitive issues, like the Ku Klux Klan and all these racial things, when they're allowed to have gatherings, they're allowed to have meetings, not out for demonstrations,
[58:59.520 --> 59:01.120]  [SPEAKER_24]: which is what a lot of people think it shouldn't be.
[59:01.240 --> 59:06.140]  [SPEAKER_24]: But what makes America great is that people can state their opinion as long as it doesn't cause direct harm to other people.
[59:06.560 --> 59:06.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[59:07.020 --> 59:21.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you know, I have to give credit to the ACLU, and I'm sure this will get me in trouble if I try running for president in a few years, but I give them credit for actually standing behind a group as hated as the American Nazi Party to say they've got the right to,
[59:21.140 --> 59:24.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: you know, to have a meeting or, you know, a demonstration or whatever.
[59:24.860 --> 59:27.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: They have that right, as disgusting as it may be to many of us.
[59:28.080 --> 59:43.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, I don't put the flag burners in the same league as Nazis, but they certainly have the right to exercise their First Amendment rights, no matter how offensive it may be to somebody else, unless they physically harm or vandalize something that doesn't belong to them.
[59:43.460 --> 59:48.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: But as far as I know, these flags that they're burning are flags that they've bought and paid for, so they can do whatever they want with them.
[59:48.960 --> 59:49.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: Exactly.
[59:50.060 --> 59:57.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: By saying it, just a paradox in itself, you're saying, well, I think America is great because it's free, but you can't do whatever you want to.
[59:57.120 --> 59:58.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: You know, you have to listen to what we think is right or wrong.
[59:59.800 --> 01:00:00.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:01.080 --> 01:00:08.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, it's, you know, we seem to be getting more, I don't know, we're more worried about these things.
[01:00:08.380 --> 01:00:14.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know why we are, you know, why is the government, why are some of the citizens so paranoid?
[01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:17.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, that any kind of... What's the next step?
[01:00:17.680 --> 01:00:19.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, we outlaw burning flags now.
[01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:21.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, what are we going to outlaw next?
[01:00:21.640 --> 01:00:22.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: Talking about burning flags?
[01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:23.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know?
[01:00:24.200 --> 01:00:24.360]  Yeah.
[01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:30.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's a lot of things you can read, because burning a flag is not the only way to show disrespect for the flag.
[01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:31.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, we'll get into that a little later.
[01:00:31.740 --> 01:00:33.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: I have a whole list here of ways of doing that.
[01:00:35.080 --> 01:00:36.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's scary.
[01:00:36.860 --> 01:00:40.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'd also like to know, if anyone out there has this information, please call in with it.
[01:00:40.780 --> 01:00:43.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many other countries have such laws?
[01:00:43.860 --> 01:00:47.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or are there any kind of variations on this law?
[01:00:47.160 --> 01:00:47.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to know that.
[01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:49.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling, sir.
[01:00:50.640 --> 01:00:52.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400 is our phone number.
[01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:53.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're talking about flag burning.
[01:00:53.420 --> 01:00:55.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're on WBAI in New York.
[01:00:55.860 --> 01:00:56.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:00:57.380 --> 01:00:58.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:00:59.160 --> 01:00:59.920]  [SPEAKER_26]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:00.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, hi.
[01:01:01.700 --> 01:01:02.080]  [SPEAKER_26]: Hi, David.
[01:01:02.340 --> 01:01:02.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:13.500]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah, I think this whole flag burning issue is a sign of a country in decline, where they start to make laws about their symbols and things like that.
[01:01:13.940 --> 01:01:20.460]  [SPEAKER_26]: It's one thing to have Iranians burning flags and everyone can say, oh, they're against America and so forth.
[01:01:20.460 --> 01:01:35.660]  [SPEAKER_26]: But it's another thing when images of Americans burning flags in America are broadcast to other countries, it shows a sort of internal weakness, which I don't think America can afford to have be shown around the world.
[01:01:35.660 --> 01:01:39.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, does that justify our banning the action in itself?
[01:01:40.160 --> 01:01:42.180]  [SPEAKER_26]: No, it doesn't justify the action.
[01:01:42.340 --> 01:01:48.880]  [SPEAKER_26]: It's what they do to preserve this image of greatness.
[01:01:49.160 --> 01:01:58.420]  [SPEAKER_26]: I mean, we're a deader nation now, and, you know, you have homeless people and people out of work, and industry has fled to the third world and so forth.
[01:01:58.560 --> 01:02:03.200]  [SPEAKER_26]: So I think America is still holding on to its notion of power.
[01:02:03.400 --> 01:02:11.760]  [SPEAKER_26]: It has military power, but as far as power in other means, in human terms, I think it has lost much of that.
[01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:20.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's something we really should be looking at, something I think that's a direct result of all the military might that we've built up.
[01:02:20.780 --> 01:02:25.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've inducted our own country, and it is falling apart to a degree.
[01:02:25.780 --> 01:02:28.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's lots of potential still there.
[01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:35.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: But there's not a significant amount of people burning flags in the streets, so maybe, you know, in other parts of the world they're getting the wrong picture.
[01:02:35.160 --> 01:02:44.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: But the fact that people are burning flags and the fact that this is an issue at all, I think we should be looking at that, not fighting the symptom, but fighting, you know, what could be a disease.
[01:02:44.660 --> 01:02:54.180]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, the most ironic thing I saw about this was during the presidential election when George Bush was in the flag factory, you know, shaking hands with all these people.
[01:02:54.320 --> 01:03:02.460]  [SPEAKER_26]: And those are the same people who a few months later he vote down a raise to pay those same people an extra 50 cents an hour.
[01:03:02.820 --> 01:03:03.320]  [SPEAKER_26]: You know?
[01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:03.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Right.
[01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:14.980]  [SPEAKER_26]: So the irony there, yeah, America's great and all that, but yet still, you know, he finds it hard to give the, you know, people making minimum wage an extra $1.25 or whatever exactly it was.
[01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:15.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:03:16.520 --> 01:03:21.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, yeah, of course, it's rather subtle.
[01:03:21.460 --> 01:03:36.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, yeah, you could say, well, he had his reasons for doing that, but the fact, the way in which it's done, kind of the, uh, uh, the subtle contempt for the working people and for the poor, certainly, that, uh, emanates from the Reagan administration and from the Bush administration,
[01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:39.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: uh, that, that says something.
[01:03:39.860 --> 01:03:40.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, yes, it does.
[01:03:40.780 --> 01:03:42.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: And so, so do people that burn flags.
[01:03:42.560 --> 01:03:43.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're saying something.
[01:03:43.680 --> 01:03:45.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, it's a form of expression.
[01:03:46.040 --> 01:03:49.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, I don't, I don't think words should be banned.
[01:03:49.160 --> 01:03:52.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think, uh, those kind of, of demonstrations should be banned.
[01:03:53.380 --> 01:03:55.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, it's sad when you have to ban things like that.
[01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:11.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, you know, what, what we're doing is, is resorting to the same tactics that those governments that we call totalitarian have been doing for years, you know, saying no public assembly, no demonstrations, no church meetings or, or protests or elections or all kinds of things like that.
[01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:12.460]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah, that's true.
[01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:18.260]  [SPEAKER_26]: Uh, and, and like the other callers, uh, I too was a veteran, but, uh, more recent times, uh, during the Grenada times.
[01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:23.680]  [SPEAKER_26]: And I, I started to have to question that, uh, you know, why are we invading a little country called Grenada?
[01:04:24.140 --> 01:04:28.580]  [SPEAKER_26]: And, uh, that's the reason why I left the Marine Corps, uh, cause my politics changed.
[01:04:28.740 --> 01:04:31.760]  [SPEAKER_26]: I, I don't think you can be politically minded and be in the military.
[01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:33.440]  [SPEAKER_26]: There was just too much conflict there.
[01:04:33.640 --> 01:04:46.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, it's, it's like, uh, I, I know lots of people that, uh, get involved with the phone company and you can't think and work for the phone company because they don't want people to ask a lot of questions, you know, and it's the same thing in the military.
[01:04:46.500 --> 01:04:49.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: They don't want you to ask a lot of questions until they get all the information into you.
[01:04:50.060 --> 01:04:54.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then, uh, you know, then you go out, you're sent out and you're all programmed and And you can... Exactly.
[01:04:54.520 --> 01:04:55.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: I know lots of people.
[01:04:55.140 --> 01:04:55.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's funny.
[01:04:55.700 --> 01:04:57.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: I know lots of people that have gone into the military.
[01:04:58.080 --> 01:05:03.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, perhaps this isn't such a bad thing for them, but they're kind of stupid when they go in.
[01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:05.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, sometimes they're very stupid when they go in.
[01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:11.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: And there's really, you know, nothing much for them in our society to do except, you know, hang out in street corners and things.
[01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:16.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then they come back from the military after a couple of years, and suddenly they're well-spoken.
[01:05:16.340 --> 01:05:17.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: They can actually put a sentence together.
[01:05:18.020 --> 01:05:23.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, what they're saying is enough to make me want to run away, but they say it well, you know.
[01:05:23.340 --> 01:05:25.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's something.
[01:05:25.460 --> 01:05:32.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a credit to the tactics of the military, not to what they are actually doing, but what they do does work.
[01:05:32.520 --> 01:05:33.020]  [SPEAKER_26]: Oh, yes.
[01:05:33.140 --> 01:05:34.820]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, I was one of the fortunate ones.
[01:05:34.820 --> 01:05:38.660]  [SPEAKER_26]: I did manage to get some very technical training while I was in the military.
[01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:43.040]  [SPEAKER_26]: But I'm like, you know, 10% off the whole bunch.
[01:05:43.600 --> 01:06:01.200]  [SPEAKER_26]: But it is true that the military does broaden your horizons because when there's someone in the White House who's asleep most of the time can send you off to your death, you kind of have to be aware of things and, you know, be aware of what's going on in the world and be very analytical of the political scene.
[01:06:01.520 --> 01:06:03.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: How hard was it to be a thinking person in the military?
[01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:05.220]  [SPEAKER_26]: Very hard.
[01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:09.900]  [SPEAKER_26]: You end up contradicting a lot of people who outrank you and get on their...
[01:06:10.620 --> 01:06:15.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Can you perhaps give me a specific example, just maybe a horror story or something nice like that?
[01:06:15.900 --> 01:06:24.560]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, one story was I was in a unit that did coordination for medical evacuations.
[01:06:25.200 --> 01:06:43.580]  [SPEAKER_26]: And I had suggested to them that since the military radios was not serving the purpose that it was intended for, that we have a commercially made radio put in and then we'd be able to contact the various units with this better quality commercial radio.
[01:06:43.580 --> 01:06:55.340]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, that didn't happen until I think about six or eight people fell out of a helicopter and we could not get to them because there was no communications available.
[01:06:55.720 --> 01:06:58.060]  [SPEAKER_26]: And the next day, there was a radio there.
[01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:01.140]  [SPEAKER_26]: They had it installed and everything the next day.
[01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:03.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why was there no radio before?
[01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:10.660]  [SPEAKER_26]: Ah, well, they just didn't... we told our superiors, hey, we need a radio of this particular type.
[01:07:11.660 --> 01:07:12.980]  [SPEAKER_26]: And it went from there.
[01:07:13.340 --> 01:07:16.240]  [SPEAKER_26]: I never heard anything about it until this incident happened.
[01:07:16.940 --> 01:07:20.420]  [SPEAKER_26]: And they were ready to come down on us, but luckily we had tape to back us up.
[01:07:20.540 --> 01:07:25.100]  [SPEAKER_26]: We made the calls out and no one responded because no one could get in touch with us.
[01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:26.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I don't understand.
[01:07:26.660 --> 01:07:29.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why would it be military policy not to have a radio?
[01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:30.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why would that be looked upon?
[01:07:30.780 --> 01:07:33.040]  [SPEAKER_26]: We didn't have a radio, but it was a military type radio.
[01:07:33.180 --> 01:07:37.280]  [SPEAKER_26]: The type... it was made by Collins Military Radio Communications Division.
[01:07:37.560 --> 01:07:39.260]  [SPEAKER_26]: And it wasn't worth the money you...
[01:07:39.260 --> 01:07:40.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, I see.
[01:07:40.700 --> 01:07:41.060]  [SPEAKER_26]: ...for it.
[01:07:41.400 --> 01:07:47.340]  [SPEAKER_26]: So I suggested a commercial radio, a good commercial radio, which could, you know, do the communications properly.
[01:07:47.560 --> 01:07:52.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's sort of like those East European devices that don't work.
[01:07:52.560 --> 01:07:55.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, people suggest getting Western European devices.
[01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:57.840]  [SPEAKER_26]: No, this was made in America.
[01:07:58.600 --> 01:08:05.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, but I'm talking about the, you know, the government wants to use something that's inefficient and isn't working, but they want to use it anyway to save face.
[01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:06.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:08:06.200 --> 01:08:11.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, obviously the other one works better, but they just try to ignore that.
[01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:12.040]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah.
[01:08:12.740 --> 01:08:20.420]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, I think the thing that really clenched it was one of the people that died was a senior officer.
[01:08:20.420 --> 01:08:23.560]  [SPEAKER_26]: I think like a colonel or a brigadier general.
[01:08:24.100 --> 01:08:25.920]  [SPEAKER_26]: That's why they moved so fast on it.
[01:08:26.060 --> 01:08:39.040]  [SPEAKER_26]: Had there been some enlisted people, I don't think they would have jumped as hard on it as they did, but, you know, someone who had some juice was pretty pissed, and that's why they jumped on it like that.
[01:08:39.540 --> 01:08:46.140]  [SPEAKER_26]: That just goes to show if you're, if you don't work much, they just, you're just cannon fodder, as they say.
[01:08:46.980 --> 01:08:47.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:08:48.180 --> 01:08:52.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, so the wrap-ups are, your thoughts on the whole flag controversy were?
[01:08:54.620 --> 01:08:55.600]  [SPEAKER_26]: It's all a ruse.
[01:08:55.780 --> 01:08:56.560]  [SPEAKER_26]: It's all a ruse.
[01:08:56.740 --> 01:09:04.760]  [SPEAKER_26]: We're moving into like a 1984 scenario, George Well type thing, and, you know, double think and double speak and all the rest of it.
[01:09:05.780 --> 01:09:07.700]  [SPEAKER_26]: We're running after false issues.
[01:09:07.900 --> 01:09:09.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you sure got to be careful what you say.
[01:09:09.700 --> 01:09:29.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: And a double think is a good analogy for a politician today, because he may feel one thing, but if he says it, even though it's in perfect alignment with democracy and with the Constitution and everything like that, he'll wish that he hadn't said it, because it's so easy to turn the words around and say,
[01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:31.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: that means you're not patriotic.
[01:09:31.440 --> 01:09:34.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And when you're not patriotic, you get voted out of office.
[01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:34.860]  [SPEAKER_26]: Uh-huh.
[01:09:34.980 --> 01:09:41.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I think we need, we need a few politicians to stand up and say, that's crap, you know, that's not it at all.
[01:09:41.740 --> 01:09:42.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm as patriotic as you.
[01:09:43.080 --> 01:09:44.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's the major thing.
[01:09:44.820 --> 01:09:47.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: I disagree with these particular flag burners on.
[01:09:48.480 --> 01:09:52.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: I was talking to a bunch of them before the lecture on Sunday.
[01:09:53.620 --> 01:10:03.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: And one thing I was asking them was, you know, why don't you take the flag as your own instead of giving it to these people waving flags on the side and spitting on you?
[01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:07.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're every bit as American as they are, you know?
[01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:15.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: When the Czechs were marching two weeks ago, you saw flags everywhere, Czechoslovakian flags, because it's their country.
[01:10:15.980 --> 01:10:16.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's their flag.
[01:10:17.060 --> 01:10:19.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: They can wave the flag if they want.
[01:10:19.280 --> 01:10:23.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: And so can people demonstrating against the policies.
[01:10:23.060 --> 01:10:26.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're every bit as American as people that support the policies.
[01:10:29.440 --> 01:10:30.000]  [SPEAKER_26]: That's true.
[01:10:30.060 --> 01:10:36.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, if you burn the flag, I guess you're sort of saying, you know, to hell with that, but the idea is still there, you know?
[01:10:36.520 --> 01:10:40.220]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah, but they're getting democracy and liberation and all that.
[01:10:40.320 --> 01:10:42.740]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah, they have the right to wave the flag then.
[01:10:43.160 --> 01:10:45.420]  [SPEAKER_26]: And I would too if that was occurring.
[01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:46.520]  [SPEAKER_26]: But it's not.
[01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:50.080]  [SPEAKER_26]: You know, you're in jeopardy of losing your job and the economy is going down.
[01:10:50.260 --> 01:10:52.240]  [SPEAKER_26]: And what's to wave the flag about?
[01:10:52.400 --> 01:10:52.700]  [SPEAKER_26]: Tell me.
[01:10:53.800 --> 01:10:55.540]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, things are not going great.
[01:10:55.920 --> 01:11:00.520]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah, so the Russians are friends with America now, but that doesn't really affect my life.
[01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:08.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: You see, I'm not very much in favor of waving any kind of flag because of all the, you know, the garbage that's come out of doing that in the past, not just in this country, but all over the place.
[01:11:08.600 --> 01:11:12.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, you can get shot dead in Israel for waving a Palestinian flag.
[01:11:12.400 --> 01:11:14.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: What kind of nonsense is that anyway?
[01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:16.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, it's a symbol.
[01:11:16.860 --> 01:11:17.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a symbol.
[01:11:18.200 --> 01:11:26.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if waving a symbol poses that much of a threat, then perhaps you better start thinking why you're in power in the first place.
[01:11:26.760 --> 01:11:27.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:11:27.320 --> 01:11:29.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a sad state of affairs.
[01:11:29.780 --> 01:11:37.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: And when you start taking symbols too seriously, you lose sight of the realities, what the symbols stand for.
[01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:40.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: You just sort of forget about those and get, you know, it's like being drunk or something.
[01:11:41.700 --> 01:11:43.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's what I think is going on.
[01:11:43.540 --> 01:11:46.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're drunk on patriotism and nationalism.
[01:11:46.380 --> 01:11:47.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think we're better than that.
[01:11:47.820 --> 01:11:57.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if anything, you know, the flag or just the, you know, the premise of the country holds some hope because it's possible for us to shake this off.
[01:11:57.800 --> 01:12:01.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, it's not going to happen if we don't do it, you know.
[01:12:02.200 --> 01:12:02.540]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah.
[01:12:03.020 --> 01:12:04.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's my thought on it.
[01:12:04.220 --> 01:12:10.860]  [SPEAKER_26]: One thing I wanted to ask you about, though, not related, on the last show that you were on, you dealt with the El Salvador issue.
[01:12:11.540 --> 01:12:14.260]  [SPEAKER_26]: You played some music at the beginning of the program.
[01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:16.460]  [SPEAKER_26]: I think it was some Jamaican reggae music.
[01:12:16.860 --> 01:12:18.820]  [SPEAKER_26]: Can you give me the name of the group for the artist?
[01:12:18.980 --> 01:12:20.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: That was... I'm glad you brought that up.
[01:12:20.700 --> 01:12:21.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: That was Mikey Dread.
[01:12:22.320 --> 01:12:22.960]  [SPEAKER_26]: Mikey Dread.
[01:12:23.100 --> 01:12:23.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:12:23.400 --> 01:12:25.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was a record called Roots in Culture.
[01:12:25.740 --> 01:12:29.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: Actually, I played the B-side of that, which was called Jungle Dread.
[01:12:31.060 --> 01:12:34.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you can find that record, my hat's off to you, but I don't think you will.
[01:12:34.320 --> 01:12:36.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's from Dread at the Controls.
[01:12:36.940 --> 01:12:37.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: What?
[01:12:37.580 --> 01:12:42.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Dread at the Controls, I believe, is the name of the record company, although I might be wrong on that.
[01:12:43.120 --> 01:12:48.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: But go to Utica Avenue in Brooklyn and wander around the reggae stores there.
[01:12:48.040 --> 01:12:49.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sure you might find that.
[01:12:49.840 --> 01:13:00.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I'm especially glad you brought that up because there was another record I played that a lot of people were asking about later on in the show called Christianity is Stupid, Communism is Good.
[01:13:01.700 --> 01:13:13.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: You can interpret that any way you want, but that was by a band called Negativland, and that was their... not the album that's in the process of coming out, which I understand they're being sued for, so it must be a really good one.
[01:13:14.120 --> 01:13:16.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: But the one that was out about a year or so ago.
[01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:18.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: So that was that for all those people that were asking.
[01:13:19.260 --> 01:13:19.480]  [SPEAKER_26]: Uh-huh.
[01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:19.920]  [SPEAKER_26]: Uh-huh.
[01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:20.300]  [SPEAKER_26]: I see.
[01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:21.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, thanks for calling, sir.
[01:13:22.100 --> 01:13:24.400]  [SPEAKER_26]: Are you going to become a regular on WBAI?
[01:13:24.400 --> 01:13:29.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I'll be filling in for Tom Whisker next week, too, and after that, we don't know.
[01:13:30.140 --> 01:13:30.580]  [SPEAKER_26]: Uh-huh.
[01:13:30.580 --> 01:13:35.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh, you know, hopefully I'll be appearing someplace on the WBAI schedule.
[01:13:35.580 --> 01:13:35.740]  [SPEAKER_26]: Okay.
[01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:36.460]  [SPEAKER_26]: Take care.
[01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:37.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:13:37.960 --> 01:13:41.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's, uh, about 13 minutes after 12 o'clock.
[01:13:41.360 --> 01:13:44.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Tom Whisker.
[01:13:44.780 --> 01:13:46.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'd like to take a look at something here.
[01:13:47.600 --> 01:13:51.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, again, you can interpret this any way you want, but it's an interesting parallel.
[01:13:51.580 --> 01:13:54.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was brought up by the folks that, uh, put out this newsletter.
[01:13:54.580 --> 01:13:58.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, again, they are the Emergency Committee to Stop the Flag Amendment and Laws.
[01:13:58.840 --> 01:14:01.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're located at 189 Franklin Street in New York.
[01:14:01.820 --> 01:14:08.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: And their phone number is 941-5474, area code 212, if you'd like to get more information from them.
[01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:13.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: They printed, um, a little thing from 1932 Germany.
[01:14:14.540 --> 01:14:21.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a quotation from the statutory criminal law of Germany, written on December 19th, 1932.
[01:14:22.060 --> 01:14:23.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is what it says.
[01:14:23.420 --> 01:14:38.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Whoever publicly profanes the Reich or one of the states incorporated into it, its constitution, colors, or flag, or the German armed forces, or maliciously and with premeditation exposes them to contempt, shall be punished by imprisonment.
[01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:46.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then, right next to it, they have the Flag Protection Act of 1989 in the United States.
[01:14:47.440 --> 01:15:02.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States, shall be fined under this title, or in prison for not more than one year, or both.
[01:15:03.980 --> 01:15:13.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: I realize, uh, legal mumbo-jumbo tends to, uh, be similar no matter what language you're speaking in, but, uh, look where one of those things led.
[01:15:13.280 --> 01:15:14.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, that was 1932.
[01:15:16.760 --> 01:15:26.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you have to wonder, why would they feel so, uh, compelled to, uh, to make a law to protect these things?
[01:15:27.660 --> 01:15:34.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Perhaps defensive states rise to do indefensible things.
[01:15:35.140 --> 01:15:39.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Also, I'm curious as to, um, those folks that, uh, support this.
[01:15:39.760 --> 01:15:40.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's why I'd really like to hear from them.
[01:15:41.040 --> 01:15:41.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: I wonder where they are.
[01:15:42.340 --> 01:15:44.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, I mean, I'm not going to jump on them.
[01:15:44.540 --> 01:15:51.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're probably going to jump on me, but, uh, I would like to, you know, hear some, some logic, other logic, too.
[01:15:52.280 --> 01:15:55.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Um, today it's, it's flag burning.
[01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:57.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, listen to this, uh, to this German law.
[01:15:58.380 --> 01:15:59.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not just flag burning.
[01:16:00.280 --> 01:16:02.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's anyone who publicly profanes the Reich.
[01:16:03.660 --> 01:16:10.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: In our case, it would be the country, in any form, uh, or one of the states incorporated into it, New York, New Jersey, that kind of thing.
[01:16:11.300 --> 01:16:12.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's constitution.
[01:16:12.280 --> 01:16:12.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:16:12.820 --> 01:16:14.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is it legal to burn the constitution?
[01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:18.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is it legal to, uh, you know, to expose them to contempt?
[01:16:19.680 --> 01:16:20.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:16:20.120 --> 01:16:27.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: The German armed forces here, the American armed forces, can we, can we say horrible things about the American armed forces?
[01:16:27.680 --> 01:16:28.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sure we can.
[01:16:28.400 --> 01:16:29.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: We can say what we want about them.
[01:16:29.860 --> 01:16:31.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's like, we can say what we want about anything.
[01:16:32.520 --> 01:16:37.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: But as you can see, they, they had no trouble at all wrapping this all up into one neat law.
[01:16:38.140 --> 01:16:43.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Flags, colors, constitution, armed forces, states, the country itself.
[01:16:45.540 --> 01:16:48.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, uh, how close do you think we are to that?
[01:16:50.100 --> 01:17:04.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: And would those people that support the ban on flag burning, would they support a ban unconstitution bashing, or military bashing, or general discontent with the country?
[01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:06.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: You see, it's a, it's a dangerous ground.
[01:17:06.760 --> 01:17:11.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'm, I'm really kind of worried about the whole thing, because I just wonder where it's going to lead.
[01:17:12.180 --> 01:17:13.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: And why do we need it?
[01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:14.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the big question.
[01:17:14.900 --> 01:17:15.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why do we need it?
[01:17:16.720 --> 01:17:18.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our number is 279-3400.
[01:17:19.160 --> 01:17:20.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to take a couple more calls.
[01:17:20.440 --> 01:17:25.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: Then we're going to go into the Joey Johnson speech, which was also recorded this past Sunday at Stony Brook.
[01:17:25.780 --> 01:17:32.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, um, Joey Johnson, for those that don't know, is, um, the person that started this whole mess.
[01:17:32.220 --> 01:17:39.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, he's the one that, uh, the Supreme Court had a ruling on over the summer.
[01:17:39.720 --> 01:17:42.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, the Supreme Court agreed with him.
[01:17:42.620 --> 01:17:49.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: The Supreme Court said what Joey Johnson did was protected under the First Amendment.
[01:17:50.220 --> 01:17:54.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: And when you don't like something, and you're in power, you change the laws.
[01:17:54.200 --> 01:17:57.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's, uh, that's pretty much what's happening right now, or what has already happened.
[01:17:58.040 --> 01:17:59.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[01:18:01.640 --> 01:18:02.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hmm.
[01:18:02.040 --> 01:18:02.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:18:03.280 --> 01:18:04.160]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah, hi, B.A.I.
[01:18:04.240 --> 01:18:06.100]  [SPEAKER_28]: Hi, I'm just going up to the flag.
[01:18:06.260 --> 01:18:06.500]  [SPEAKER_28]: Hello?
[01:18:06.740 --> 01:18:07.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Can you speak up, please?
[01:18:07.740 --> 01:18:07.920]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah.
[01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:09.160]  [SPEAKER_28]: Hello?
[01:18:09.380 --> 01:18:09.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:18:10.560 --> 01:18:11.440]  [SPEAKER_28]: Oh, I'm on the air now.
[01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:11.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[01:18:12.080 --> 01:18:17.620]  [SPEAKER_28]: No, the only thing is that the flag burning issue seems to me to be more for a minister of McCarthyism.
[01:18:18.420 --> 01:18:22.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that's, uh, it doesn't take long to reach that conclusion, in my opinion.
[01:18:22.340 --> 01:18:23.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh, why do you think so?
[01:18:24.100 --> 01:18:24.580]  [SPEAKER_28]: Well, why?
[01:18:24.660 --> 01:18:27.900]  [SPEAKER_28]: Because it's really, it's totally irrelevant in terms of the general public.
[01:18:28.040 --> 01:18:30.700]  [SPEAKER_28]: It has no mean effect that they're influencing politicians.
[01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:38.880]  [SPEAKER_28]: It's just, much like prior to the election, they got involved with the liberalism issue, L.
[01:18:39.480 --> 01:18:41.140]  [SPEAKER_28]: And now they're bringing up flag burning.
[01:18:41.300 --> 01:18:41.980]  [SPEAKER_28]: It's another issue.
[01:18:42.880 --> 01:18:44.320]  [SPEAKER_28]: And it's kind of indefensible.
[01:18:44.320 --> 01:18:50.840]  [SPEAKER_28]: But it seems that it's more just a ploy, just to, basically, keep politicians in line.
[01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:54.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: A good way to get votes is to support something like this.
[01:18:54.740 --> 01:18:55.760]  [SPEAKER_28]: Control votes, really.
[01:18:56.400 --> 01:18:56.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:18:56.940 --> 01:18:58.720]  [SPEAKER_28]: Limits the debate to such an extent.
[01:18:59.440 --> 01:19:04.260]  [SPEAKER_28]: But, I mean, in terms of an actual crime, it's totally irrelevant, because it really doesn't harm anyone.
[01:19:04.560 --> 01:19:10.360]  [SPEAKER_28]: And such a small fragment of the population is really affected, it's totally irrelevant to rule against it.
[01:19:10.560 --> 01:19:10.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:14.500]  [SPEAKER_28]: It's a great way to control a population, or to limit a debate.
[01:19:15.240 --> 01:19:17.120]  [SPEAKER_28]: And that's really where its danger lies.
[01:19:17.440 --> 01:19:20.280]  [SPEAKER_28]: It has nothing whatsoever to do with burning the flag.
[01:19:20.500 --> 01:19:22.760]  [SPEAKER_28]: It's really a question of finding patriotism.
[01:19:22.960 --> 01:19:25.400]  [SPEAKER_28]: And that's where it harkens back to McCarthyism.
[01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:29.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think we've learned anything from that, from McCarthyism?
[01:19:30.080 --> 01:19:30.920]  [SPEAKER_28]: Probably not.
[01:19:31.440 --> 01:19:44.080]  [SPEAKER_28]: The problem is because the media is so limited in terms of disseminating information, discussing points of view, that debate itself is so limited in this country, that you really can't have an intelligent discussion of anything.
[01:19:44.960 --> 01:19:49.840]  [SPEAKER_28]: And the problem is that the political process, being what it is, is almost recalcitrant.
[01:19:50.020 --> 01:19:53.300]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, the problem that politicians have is really one of getting re-elected.
[01:19:53.940 --> 01:19:54.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's true.
[01:19:54.600 --> 01:20:01.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that is a major problem, because that's all they're going to think about is how to... It's mass appeal.
[01:20:01.160 --> 01:20:02.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Everything is mass appeal.
[01:20:02.620 --> 01:20:05.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: You want the biggest ratings, you want the most votes.
[01:20:06.220 --> 01:20:15.600]  [SPEAKER_28]: Well, the thing is that you can keep politicians in line solely by defining the issues of where patriotism lies, which is totally relevant to the actual values of patriotism.
[01:20:15.920 --> 01:20:17.780]  [SPEAKER_28]: So they basically go after labels.
[01:20:18.040 --> 01:20:20.720]  [SPEAKER_28]: You know, if somebody's, uh... How can I say it?
[01:20:20.780 --> 01:20:23.720]  [SPEAKER_28]: You know, are you for flag burning, for the death penalty, for abortion?
[01:20:24.200 --> 01:20:26.480]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, the spectrum is so really limited, but...
[01:20:26.480 --> 01:20:26.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:20:27.120 --> 01:20:36.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you know, you can get around that by just saying, I'm for democracy, I'm for choice, you know, and I'm not for people going around killing each other.
[01:20:36.020 --> 01:20:40.780]  [SPEAKER_28]: Well, even democracy has become an aberration, because you're living in a world of doublespeak.
[01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:46.220]  [SPEAKER_28]: Because really, people don't discuss the meaning of words, they just discuss the words themselves.
[01:20:46.900 --> 01:20:48.020]  [SPEAKER_28]: And that's the problem.
[01:20:48.300 --> 01:20:50.520]  [SPEAKER_28]: That's a certain... How can I say it?
[01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:51.680]  [SPEAKER_28]: Distortion of language.
[01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:58.140]  [SPEAKER_28]: But there's a... There's almost a... A double meaning given to the word itself.
[01:20:58.260 --> 01:21:02.200]  [SPEAKER_28]: You know, we talk about democracy in this country, yet they look... What's going on in Eastern Europe?
[01:21:02.200 --> 01:21:02.300]  [SPEAKER_28]: Europe.
[01:21:02.620 --> 01:21:15.700]  [SPEAKER_28]: They went out in the streets, and they had a popular referendum in a relatively short period of time, where they were able to dramatically affect change within their... Supposedly affect change within their governments, which is unheard of in this country.
[01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:16.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:21:16.140 --> 01:21:24.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I strongly, strongly believe at this point, and I couldn't have said this a year ago, that democracy is much more alive in Eastern Europe than it is in the United States.
[01:21:24.260 --> 01:21:37.400]  [SPEAKER_28]: No, it's probably... In this country, I hate to say it, but... You know, if you want to really examine the way democracy is used in this country, you could probably substitute demagoguery for it, and get closer to its actual meaning.
[01:21:37.700 --> 01:21:38.760]  [SPEAKER_28]: But it's all facade.
[01:21:38.940 --> 01:21:40.220]  [SPEAKER_28]: That's really what it comes down to.
[01:21:41.180 --> 01:21:42.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, thanks for your opinion, sir.
[01:21:42.780 --> 01:21:42.980]  [SPEAKER_28]: Okay.
[01:21:43.400 --> 01:21:43.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:21:43.920 --> 01:21:45.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: And our phone number, 279-3400.
[01:21:46.060 --> 01:21:46.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:21:46.680 --> 01:21:47.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[01:21:47.440 --> 01:21:47.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you?
[01:21:48.040 --> 01:21:48.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, how are you?
[01:21:48.740 --> 01:21:50.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, I want to say I really enjoy your program.
[01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:54.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm going to disagree with you, but it's funny.
[01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:58.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of these things where I agree with you politically.
[01:21:58.820 --> 01:22:00.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would say, you know, I agree with you.
[01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:03.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, okay, now, bear with me.
[01:22:03.460 --> 01:22:13.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's something sort of cliched, and, you know, please take this kindly, and sort of spar me about certain things.
[01:22:14.020 --> 01:22:16.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you take the movie Atomic Cafe.
[01:22:16.620 --> 01:22:32.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you know, I said, oh, it was a good movie and all that, but the thing is, the idea of taking the worst proponents of something and just putting them up there is like, there's something so fast, there's a fast soundness about it.
[01:22:33.520 --> 01:22:36.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: Except, sir, those people weren't the lunatic fringe.
[01:22:36.600 --> 01:22:37.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: They were the ones in power.
[01:22:37.780 --> 01:22:40.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but, okay, okay, okay, I'll tell you what it was specifically.
[01:22:40.860 --> 01:22:43.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you talk about rednecks and pickups, Chuck.
[01:22:43.440 --> 01:22:56.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's, I mean, that's really, that's so dated type of, you know, easy rider type of talk.
[01:22:56.520 --> 01:23:00.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also, I'm really against imprecision in thought.
[01:23:01.020 --> 01:23:10.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, a lot of things become part of, you know, code words, like double speaker, or catch-22, or, you know, Orwellian.
[01:23:10.340 --> 01:23:12.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're used imprecisely.
[01:23:12.480 --> 01:23:23.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the thing is that, that, that, uh, uh, you're comparing the fact, okay, now, I'm, again, I'm, again, I think the flag law is ridiculous.
[01:23:23.480 --> 01:23:31.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was a stupid, it was just an attempt by politicians to jump on a popular bandwagon.
[01:23:31.700 --> 01:23:39.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm also against flag burning, because there's something really strangely ritualistic and, and, and, and about it.
[01:23:39.280 --> 01:23:40.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm uncomfortable with it.
[01:23:41.060 --> 01:23:43.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm comfortable with, you know, like, you know, book burning.
[01:23:43.920 --> 01:23:49.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the thing is, if there's something, if you, if you, if your body is diseased, what do you do, burn a picture of yourself?
[01:23:49.860 --> 01:24:01.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's like, it's like, there's something, I would suggest you ask Joey Johnson sometime about the, their, his, you know, if his party came to power, what What would their stand be on censorship?
[01:24:02.360 --> 01:24:06.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they've had RCP people marching in anti-censorship things.
[01:24:06.140 --> 01:24:09.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you read the literature, you realize that, you know...
[01:24:09.380 --> 01:24:14.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: You ask if somebody would allow to, say, wave a Nazi flag.
[01:24:14.200 --> 01:24:15.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, just ask that.
[01:24:15.080 --> 01:24:18.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, sir, don't you see how... I understand your point, but that's irrelevant.
[01:24:18.580 --> 01:24:19.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: It is irrelevant.
[01:24:19.280 --> 01:24:19.640]  I'm sorry.
[01:24:19.740 --> 01:24:20.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm really sorry I got off on that.
[01:24:21.060 --> 01:24:25.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, I just want to say, what are you going to do if they say, no, we're going to impose full censorship?
[01:24:25.860 --> 01:24:29.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are you going to say, well, because you're going to impose full censorship, that means you can't do this?
[01:24:29.400 --> 01:24:30.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: It doesn't matter what they say.
[01:24:31.240 --> 01:24:34.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm for allowing anybody to burn the flag as a kid.
[01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:37.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the thing is, okay, but, okay, again, comparing it...
[01:24:37.800 --> 01:24:40.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, there's something... You know, this happens on WBAI a lot.
[01:24:41.340 --> 01:24:44.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: They'll take... It's like from the small...
[01:24:44.220 --> 01:24:47.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's, you know, some people...
[01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:51.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's something to be said for a certain logic.
[01:24:51.320 --> 01:24:53.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like... And I realize...
[01:24:53.620 --> 01:25:03.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you take the Nazi statute and this statute, and it's like, okay, saying, because this, you know, this is...
[01:25:03.640 --> 01:25:08.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Has similar to this, although, if you notice, in this law, it says not more than one year.
[01:25:09.020 --> 01:25:11.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and who knows what they could have done to you with that law.
[01:25:11.460 --> 01:25:16.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing is, because this means we're going to fascism.
[01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:19.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also, for instance, again, this is sort of...
[01:25:19.580 --> 01:25:21.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm getting off my chest certain things about, like, WBAI.
[01:25:22.020 --> 01:25:26.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, they compare Tiananmen Square with Tompkins Square.
[01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:27.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like any...
[01:25:27.700 --> 01:25:33.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And any little thing, anything they can take to make a comparison, this is like that.
[01:25:33.140 --> 01:25:46.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, I'm from Chicago, and it's like, since I've come to New York, I've listened to a lot of radio, a lot of WBAI, and a lot of the, you know, more conservative stations, too.
[01:25:46.760 --> 01:25:50.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's like, it seems there's an endemic lack of logic.
[01:25:51.240 --> 01:25:53.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's like, this is like that.
[01:25:53.360 --> 01:25:55.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, you're another.
[01:25:55.820 --> 01:26:02.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that seems to be, you know, the things we say to kids, you know, about the logical...
[01:26:02.380 --> 01:26:05.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: If people would follow, you know, laws of logic.
[01:26:05.240 --> 01:26:07.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in other words, it's like, the only...
[01:26:07.200 --> 01:26:17.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, if there's a racial incident, and it seems the debates always are on how the media covers something, not on the issue itself.
[01:26:17.300 --> 01:26:23.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, and I hear people say, well, the New York Times is right-wing establishment.
[01:26:23.360 --> 01:26:28.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then I hear people say, right, the New York Times is left-wing, commie radicals, or whatever, you know.
[01:26:28.980 --> 01:26:34.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, people, they judge issues on how it's covered in the media, rather than on the facts.
[01:26:35.140 --> 01:26:38.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the thing is, the flag-burning...
[01:26:38.440 --> 01:26:57.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I really wish I could say, you know, I know you wanted somebody to oppose you, and... but, you know, I can't say that I'm for the law or the amendment or whatever, but I think there's something really smarmy in the attitude that this is like that.
[01:26:57.900 --> 01:27:06.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're headed for some kind of Orwellian thing because of this law.
[01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:08.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's nonsense.
[01:27:08.640 --> 01:27:09.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well...
[01:27:09.020 --> 01:27:11.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it's nonsense.
[01:27:11.400 --> 01:27:13.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like... it's like... and it's just funny.
[01:27:14.320 --> 01:27:16.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was... I was...
[01:27:16.640 --> 01:27:23.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Joey Johnson, you know, you're getting upset that he's not... you know, he's not going to be prosecuted.
[01:27:24.040 --> 01:27:28.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: It seems that we have a generation of revolutionary whiners.
[01:27:28.500 --> 01:27:42.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the difference between why there's not going to be any revolutions is because the old-style tough revolutionaries, they went up against the government, and you expected to clamp down, and you dealt with it, and you didn't whine about it.
[01:27:42.780 --> 01:27:45.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hear... they whine!
[01:27:45.480 --> 01:27:52.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's just like... it's like... it's like there's a... idea that... that...
[01:27:52.440 --> 01:27:56.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, there was a flag wall in relation... you know, because somebody burned it.
[01:27:56.960 --> 01:27:58.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, people are whining about it.
[01:27:59.020 --> 01:27:59.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: About it.
[01:27:59.580 --> 01:27:59.580]  What?
[01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:02.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why even...
[01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:05.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, sir, I have to... I have to agree with you on the whiners.
[01:28:05.660 --> 01:28:06.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: I do see that myself.
[01:28:07.060 --> 01:28:15.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: But as far as... as far as comparing... and... and... taking some... some justice and saying, well, this could lead to that, I think that's necessary.
[01:28:15.680 --> 01:28:17.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, you have to do that on both ends.
[01:28:17.180 --> 01:28:19.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think it's quite possible it could lead to...
[01:28:19.160 --> 01:28:21.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like... it's like the thing is...
[01:28:22.060 --> 01:28:25.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I get upset sometimes when... when... when... as a Jew.
[01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:32.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: I do get upset sometimes when people compare Israeli actions to Nazi actions against the Palestinians.
[01:28:33.080 --> 01:28:35.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: But then, you know, this is where I think you're going to agree with me.
[01:28:35.640 --> 01:28:42.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then I realize, well, gee, you know, maybe if the Jews had thrown some rocks in 1931 or 32, maybe there wouldn't have been a holocaust.
[01:28:42.960 --> 01:28:48.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe... but the thing is, I think what the Palestinians are doing is... is... is good.
[01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:50.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I... Right.
[01:28:50.720 --> 01:28:51.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I... you know, and the thing is...
[01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:55.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: for simple reason that it might prevent something like... like a...
[01:28:55.600 --> 01:28:58.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: some kind of terrible thing in the future.
[01:28:58.640 --> 01:28:59.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: The future.
[01:28:59.540 --> 01:29:03.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: But... but don't say that the Israelis are... are... I mean...
[01:29:03.200 --> 01:29:06.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know... are... are Nazis because they're... they're reacting to...
[01:29:06.960 --> 01:29:07.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: in other words...
[01:29:07.720 --> 01:29:10.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: you... you... you... you... make it... to do an action...
[01:29:10.400 --> 01:29:12.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to expect the government to react.
[01:29:12.760 --> 01:29:24.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, unless you're operating in some kind of total vacuum, the thing is that you don't whine about it, you know, and you give them the...
[01:29:24.400 --> 01:29:26.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you have to...
[01:29:26.900 --> 01:29:38.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Look, there is... I believe that there is a possibility to be physically brave and be a moral coward, you know?
[01:29:38.920 --> 01:29:48.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't... I believe that it's impossible to be morally brave and also be a physically coward.
[01:29:48.260 --> 01:29:51.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, you can't say, I'm morally brave, but I'm a physical coward.
[01:29:52.140 --> 01:29:55.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to also be physically brave.
[01:29:55.380 --> 01:29:59.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you can be physically brave and also be a moral coward.
[01:29:59.280 --> 01:30:00.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know if that's true, though.
[01:30:00.700 --> 01:30:07.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, you're saying that what somebody says is meaningless if they don't survive torture, you know?
[01:30:07.440 --> 01:30:08.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, no, no, no.
[01:30:09.160 --> 01:30:10.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, please.
[01:30:10.420 --> 01:30:13.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: See, again, there's such imprecision of thought here.
[01:30:13.280 --> 01:30:14.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I read that.
[01:30:14.220 --> 01:30:15.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that's not what I said.
[01:30:17.040 --> 01:30:21.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying that if you're going to take a stand, you have to...
[01:30:21.740 --> 01:30:23.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: See, you could write torture.
[01:30:24.160 --> 01:30:25.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: See, that's what happens.
[01:30:25.860 --> 01:30:37.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it's the, you know, the seven laws of logic that are taught in Philosophy 101 are constantly being trampled upon, you know, and maybe you just throw them out the window.
[01:30:37.440 --> 01:30:39.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: You say, this is what happens.
[01:30:40.120 --> 01:30:45.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: You go from imprisonment to torture.
[01:30:46.220 --> 01:30:49.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I never even said that what they say is wrong.
[01:30:49.480 --> 01:30:54.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying if you choose to take a revolutionary stance, you've got to know you're going to suffer hardship.
[01:30:54.680 --> 01:30:55.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the thing is this.
[01:30:56.160 --> 01:30:57.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing is this.
[01:30:57.380 --> 01:31:16.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that I'm not saying that torture is right, but I'm saying, what I'm saying, I'm not saying somebody who's been tortured has, you know, but I'm saying that if somebody gets arrested and put in jail, okay, that's bad and it shouldn't be, but there's an element of,
[01:31:17.040 --> 01:31:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: again, you're taking countries where they do torture you.
[01:31:20.940 --> 01:31:25.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I understand that it's important maybe to nip something in the bud.
[01:31:25.740 --> 01:31:31.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, if you complain about, you know, being arrested, maybe that'll prevent you from being tortured in the future.
[01:31:32.780 --> 01:31:35.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the thing is that, but don't whine.
[01:31:35.540 --> 01:31:36.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't whine about it.
[01:31:36.500 --> 01:31:41.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and again, I understand.
[01:31:43.080 --> 01:31:46.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't like the Paul Harvey style of radio.
[01:31:46.580 --> 01:31:47.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, everything is great.
[01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:48.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everything is peachy keen.
[01:31:48.780 --> 01:31:52.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's the lower classes that are ruining everything.
[01:31:52.260 --> 01:31:53.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's ridiculous.
[01:31:53.240 --> 01:32:04.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the thing is that I think some people, you've got to realize there's a great world out there besides New York.
[01:32:04.000 --> 01:32:06.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is where the redneck thing comes in.
[01:32:06.440 --> 01:32:16.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, again, I think there's a real elitism of, you know, especially among WBAI type listeners.
[01:32:16.700 --> 01:32:18.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like there's...
[01:32:18.280 --> 01:32:21.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, sir, aren't you generalizing, too, when you say things like that?
[01:32:21.140 --> 01:32:21.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, look, okay.
[01:32:22.500 --> 01:32:23.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I am.
[01:32:24.040 --> 01:32:25.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I am.
[01:32:25.320 --> 01:32:26.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[01:32:26.160 --> 01:32:29.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just... But I'm pointing out a specific instance.
[01:32:29.680 --> 01:32:33.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: What if... Instead of said redneck, what if you said...
[01:32:33.120 --> 01:32:36.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to think of an equivalent for another minority.
[01:32:36.580 --> 01:32:38.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: What if you said coon or something like that?
[01:32:38.940 --> 01:32:55.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what... You know, there's a lot of... It's like the old thing about, you know, the South, you know, those prejudices are ridiculous.
[01:32:55.420 --> 01:32:57.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just dividing people.
[01:32:57.480 --> 01:33:01.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, you want to be inclusive, not exclusive, so they're not elitist.
[01:33:02.780 --> 01:33:03.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing is this.
[01:33:03.820 --> 01:33:07.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Try to... I think people... I'm not accusing you of anything except...
[01:33:08.360 --> 01:33:12.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Except you wanted somebody to make little ways.
[01:33:13.160 --> 01:33:15.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sir, I'm kind of losing you.
[01:33:15.720 --> 01:33:16.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: Can you kind of...
[01:33:16.980 --> 01:33:17.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, you're right.
[01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:18.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: I am digressing.
[01:33:18.760 --> 01:33:19.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: I am digressing.
[01:33:19.440 --> 01:33:21.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I really didn't mean to talk this long.
[01:33:21.320 --> 01:33:22.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying this.
[01:33:24.240 --> 01:33:27.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying, don't be such a snob.
[01:33:27.940 --> 01:33:39.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, don't... In other words, don't realize that there's people who legitimately don't believe what you believe, and they're not...
[01:33:44.320 --> 01:33:56.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, again, I think there's a real elitism of, you know, especially among WBAI-type listeners, and it's like there's...
[01:33:56.760 --> 01:33:59.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, sir, aren't you generalizing, too, when you say things like that?
[01:33:59.520 --> 01:34:00.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, look, okay.
[01:34:00.880 --> 01:34:02.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I am.
[01:34:02.460 --> 01:34:03.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I am.
[01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:04.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[01:34:05.140 --> 01:34:07.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just... But I'm pointing out a specific instance.
[01:34:08.000 --> 01:34:11.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: What if... Instead of said redneck, what if you said...
[01:34:11.440 --> 01:34:14.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to think of an equivalent for another minority.
[01:34:14.800 --> 01:34:17.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: What if you said coon or something like that?
[01:34:17.120 --> 01:34:33.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what... You know, there's a lot of... It's like the old thing about, you know, the South, you know, those prejudices are ridiculous.
[01:34:33.320 --> 01:34:35.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just dividing people.
[01:34:35.100 --> 01:34:38.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, you want to be inclusive, not exclusive, not elitist.
[01:34:41.240 --> 01:34:49.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's just try to... I think people... I'm not accusing you of anything except you wanted somebody to make little ways.
[01:34:50.820 --> 01:34:53.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sir, I'm kind of losing you.
[01:34:53.240 --> 01:34:56.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Can you kind of wrap up the thought here?
[01:34:56.120 --> 01:34:56.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I am digressing.
[01:34:56.960 --> 01:34:58.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: I really didn't mean to talk this long.
[01:34:58.720 --> 01:34:59.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying this.
[01:35:01.480 --> 01:35:05.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying, don't be such a snob.
[01:35:05.440 --> 01:35:28.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, don't realize that there's people who legitimately don't believe what you believe, and they're not rednecks, and they're not garbage, and they feel that the law is necessary simply as a reaction to the flag burning.
[01:35:28.920 --> 01:35:39.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And don't mock them because their way of thinking hasn't progressed as far as the 21st century.
[01:35:39.280 --> 01:35:39.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:35:39.640 --> 01:35:40.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, have I mocked them?
[01:35:40.920 --> 01:35:41.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: I wasn't aware of that.
[01:35:41.900 --> 01:35:42.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, okay.
[01:35:42.280 --> 01:35:44.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: I refer to rednecks, but there are rednecks in the world.
[01:35:44.500 --> 01:35:47.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Playing that country swing record is really...
[01:35:48.340 --> 01:35:50.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's something really smarmy about it.
[01:35:50.540 --> 01:35:51.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's use that word for a third time.
[01:35:51.940 --> 01:35:53.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, but that's a fact of history.
[01:35:53.800 --> 01:35:56.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just remember, a way of life...
[01:35:56.400 --> 01:35:59.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: A way of life is involved...
[01:35:59.260 --> 01:36:00.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of different things.
[01:36:00.580 --> 01:36:10.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you pull out one thing and expose it as rotten, or maybe, you know, it's like...
[01:36:11.060 --> 01:36:16.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, a way of life has many different factors.
[01:36:16.820 --> 01:36:20.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there may be good things and bad things, and you should point out the bad things.
[01:36:20.400 --> 01:36:31.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: But also remember that it also was part of a way of thinking that if you just were to...
[01:36:31.280 --> 01:36:36.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a sudden, people were just to pull it out from under people, that the whole thing would collapse.
[01:36:36.440 --> 01:36:41.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, try to educate people rather than just be smarmy about it.
[01:36:41.960 --> 01:36:42.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, okay.
[01:36:42.620 --> 01:36:43.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: You've used that word many times, but...
[01:36:43.720 --> 01:36:46.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, I know, I know, because that's the gist of it.
[01:36:46.920 --> 01:36:47.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well...
[01:36:47.500 --> 01:36:48.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Don't be self-righteous.
[01:36:48.600 --> 01:36:49.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Don't be righteous.
[01:36:50.120 --> 01:37:00.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't be self-righteous.
[01:37:00.640 --> 01:37:01.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, thanks very much for calling.
[01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:02.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:37:02.320 --> 01:37:02.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:37:03.400 --> 01:37:06.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our phone number is 279-3400.
[01:37:10.400 --> 01:37:13.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's just about 25 minutes to 3 o'clock.
[01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:15.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't want to wait any longer with the...
[01:37:18.060 --> 01:37:20.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Joey Johnson recording that we have here.
[01:37:20.860 --> 01:37:24.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: So I want to go straight into that, then we'll come back to the phones.
[01:37:24.180 --> 01:37:29.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, this recording was made on Sunday evening at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
[01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:34.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Joey Johnson, the infamous flag-burner guy who started this whole thing.
[01:37:34.740 --> 01:37:42.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, of course, he didn't start the whole thing, but he was the person that Destiny threw in front of the wheels of justice or whatever.
[01:37:42.480 --> 01:37:45.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: However you want to make that analogy.
[01:37:46.020 --> 01:37:52.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And he spoke at the State University at Stony Brook on Sunday about what he believes in, what it's all about to him.
[01:37:52.600 --> 01:37:53.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think it deserves a listen.
[01:37:54.080 --> 01:37:56.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: And afterwards, we will take some more of your phone calls.
[01:37:56.000 --> 01:38:01.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to start off by saying October 28th, when this...
[01:38:01.940 --> 01:38:14.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess people have been following and know a little bit, like, what went down and stuff around this new Federal Flag Protection Act of 1989 that went into effect on October 28th at 12.01 a.m.
[01:38:15.020 --> 01:38:21.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was righteously, I believe, met with mass defiance in a number of places throughout the country.
[01:38:21.680 --> 01:38:24.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hundreds of... in fact, thousands of flags went up in flames.
[01:38:24.900 --> 01:38:37.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: In Seattle, Washington, the organization that Dave belongs to, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialists, napalmed a thousand American flags in a demonstration.
[01:38:37.920 --> 01:38:39.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: And people might have seen that on TV.
[01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:49.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: They went down to the Federal Post Office, and I saw the clip on the evening news where it showed them bringing down the flag down the pole and lighting it up and then running it back up the pole.
[01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:53.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was a great way to, like, put the stars and stripes up.
[01:38:55.260 --> 01:38:56.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, um...
[01:38:56.340 --> 01:39:14.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is... this is extremely significant, I think, what happened, what these Vietnam veterans did, because I know from the last year around this Supreme Court case, both with Dred Scott Tyler, the black revolutionary artist in Chicago who put the American flag on the floor in an art installation called,
[01:39:14.700 --> 01:39:17.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: What is the Proper Way to Display the American Flag?
[01:39:17.500 --> 01:39:22.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: And with my Supreme Court case, there was a real, uh, deliberate attempt from the various highest...
[01:39:22.980 --> 01:39:36.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: from the highest levels of government to try to use these, uh, veterans of different, uh, imperialist wars that the United States has been engaged in, to try to use them to, to, to bash us, or to politically encircle and suppress us, and to intimidate us,
[01:39:36.780 --> 01:39:40.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: and say that there's all these flag-worshiping veterans out here.
[01:39:40.200 --> 01:39:50.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you go up against this red, white, and blue madness, or if you go up against this atmosphere of forced patriotism that we're trying to create, then we're going to use them, we're going to mobilize them as a mob to come out and suppress you.
[01:39:51.020 --> 01:40:01.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And both Dred Scott and I had received numerous threats from these veterans organizations, and there was a, uh, a deliberate mobilization of some of these John Wayne types, some of these, these, uh, Rambos.
[01:40:01.400 --> 01:40:06.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: These, these are the veterans that went to, to Vietnam and enjoyed bombing the villages, you know?
[01:40:06.540 --> 01:40:13.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: These are the reactionary die-hard types that, that got into the slaughters that were the standard operating procedure for U.S.
[01:40:13.480 --> 01:40:16.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: imperialism when they tried to carry out their domination of Vietnam.
[01:40:16.740 --> 01:40:31.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: These were the people that are proud of the fact that two and a half million Vietnamese and another million Indo-Chinese were slaughtered in the course of a, of over a decade-long effort by, by United States imperialism to bludgeon the Vietnamese people and Indo-Chinese people into submission.
[01:40:31.980 --> 01:40:36.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: And people like Dave, they don't even really exist, you know?
[01:40:36.780 --> 01:40:38.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the mindf*ck that they're trying to run on people.
[01:40:39.200 --> 01:40:43.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: Or Dave is one of these, uh, people that's having adjustment problems, you know?
[01:40:43.560 --> 01:40:44.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: He just ain't with it yet.
[01:40:45.020 --> 01:40:57.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: He hasn't gotten with the whole, you know, Rambo, uh, mentality that they're trying to run on people with their China Beach and their, uh, their Rambo movies, and this, you know, honor the veteran, you know, so that they can use you again.
[01:40:57.540 --> 01:41:12.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: And mindf*ck that they've been running on people ever since the end of the Vietnam War, and especially in the last 10 years has been very deliberate, you know, ideological campaigns from the highest levels of government to run this on people.
[01:41:12.820 --> 01:41:14.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: So people like Dave ain't even supposed to exist.
[01:41:14.820 --> 01:41:31.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought it was great on October 30th, you know, not only had two days before on October 28th that these vets in Seattle napalmed the American flags, but when we did the same thing in New York on October 28th, went out and did a mass flag burning,
[01:41:31.860 --> 01:41:36.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: and we called it an exorcism of forced patriotism, we couldn't get arrested, you know.
[01:41:36.520 --> 01:41:37.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to get arrested.
[01:41:37.660 --> 01:41:44.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to deliberately defy the law, take us back to the Supreme Court, you know, show how you can overturn this.
[01:41:44.820 --> 01:41:45.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Texas v.
[01:41:45.480 --> 01:41:59.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: Johnson, my original Supreme Court case, and still try to put your message out to the people of the world that this is the country of freedom of expression, of political tolerance, that you don't suppress political dissenters.
[01:41:59.320 --> 01:42:02.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to challenge the government of this country to do that, you know.
[01:42:02.580 --> 01:42:14.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, the new federal flag law that they passed calls for expediting to the Supreme Court a first test case that they can get to try to overturn Texas v.
[01:42:14.260 --> 01:42:14.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Johnson.
[01:42:14.820 --> 01:42:23.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought it was great when we went down to Washington, D.C., since we couldn't get arrested in New York for defying this law, we said, well, let's just take it right to the steps of the Capitol.
[01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:26.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, let's just, like, go right up in their face with it.
[01:42:26.700 --> 01:42:39.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: So we dressed up like yuppies, Dave, myself, Dred Scott, an artist from Chicago, and Sean Eichmann, a woman artist and a member of Refuse and Resist from New York.
[01:42:39.100 --> 01:42:44.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we went down to the steps of the Capitol, and we came, we saw, we burned.
[01:42:44.600 --> 01:42:46.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we did it again.
[01:42:46.500 --> 01:43:09.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was really great, in particular, that Dave was there, because it's not like when the newscasters reported the napalming of the thousand American flags in Seattle, that they said, now, wait a minute, we've been lying to you all along, and presenting a distorted or warped picture of the veterans in this country.
[01:43:09.500 --> 01:43:16.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we've been telling you that they're all flag worshipers, and they're all intoxicated with this mindless Rambo patriotism.
[01:43:16.900 --> 01:43:28.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we left out a section of the veterans, these veterans that got radicalized through their whole experience in Vietnam, these veterans that came to hate the government, that put them through this patriotic indoctrination from kindergarten to boot camp,
[01:43:28.860 --> 01:43:36.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: and then sent them over there to commit all these mindless slaughters, and then came back hating the government that sent them there to do that.
[01:43:36.660 --> 01:43:37.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: We've been lying to you.
[01:43:37.740 --> 01:43:39.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't told you about these radical veterans.
[01:43:39.660 --> 01:43:40.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't do that.
[01:43:40.400 --> 01:43:47.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they just had a matter-of-factly report on October 28th, when the vets napalmed the flags in Seattle.
[01:43:47.560 --> 01:43:53.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: In their words, one newscaster said, the Federal Flag Protection Act went into effect tonight.
[01:43:53.420 --> 01:43:59.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: Vietnam veterans burned the flag against forced patriotism, and there were flag burnings from sea to shining sea.
[01:44:00.200 --> 01:44:02.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they just had to report it like that.
[01:44:02.460 --> 01:44:04.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: So even more, we wanted to go into their face.
[01:44:04.980 --> 01:44:11.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to put it in their face and go right to the steps of the Capitol and, you know, defy their law.
[01:44:11.960 --> 01:44:14.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we did on October 30th.
[01:44:14.660 --> 01:44:17.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: And now we've got a brand-new Supreme Court case.
[01:44:17.420 --> 01:44:28.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: And more than that, we've got, you know, an even stronger basis, I think, for there to be much greater debate throughout society about why is the government trying to, like, essentially, like, force the flag on people.
[01:44:28.680 --> 01:44:44.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: What is this whole thing, this specter of these comparisons to Nazi Germany becoming more and more real with a threatening imprisonment and attacks on people who go up against their national emblem.
[01:44:45.940 --> 01:44:56.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, yesterday, if people saw the news, you know, because I want to speak to what I think is underlying all this and why it is that they're trying to force the flag on people and, you know, what it's a sign of.
[01:44:56.080 --> 01:45:08.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think if people saw it yesterday on the news in Malta when Bush and Gorbachev got together for this summit at sea, it was a very stormy situation in the harbor there.
[01:45:08.400 --> 01:45:12.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's turbulent seas all throughout the Malta harbor.
[01:45:12.580 --> 01:45:15.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: Winds were gusting and blowing, you know, very intensely.
[01:45:15.400 --> 01:45:23.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know how many people saw the news coverage, but it was really, you know, somewhat of a dangerous situation to send a motor launch, you know, out into the water.
[01:45:23.560 --> 01:45:32.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: But nonetheless, Bush was sent out to the American frigate or the American destroyer that was sitting in the harbor.
[01:45:32.720 --> 01:45:39.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: And as you know, Gorbachev was also positioned on a Soviet destroyer.
[01:45:39.520 --> 01:45:50.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it just struck me when I watched this going on in the news, you know, how deliberately they choreographed these summit meetings to put forward a certain ideological message, you know.
[01:45:50.820 --> 01:46:11.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought the message was with this summit, like, even though the world is an extremely turbulent place right now, you know, and far from peace breaking out all over the world, it's very volatile situations in many different parts of the world, that what they're trying to drive home to people with this summit is that these two great powers are going to meet here,
[01:46:12.040 --> 01:46:14.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, at this summit meeting at Malta.
[01:46:15.180 --> 01:46:18.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to control the outcome of things.
[01:46:18.020 --> 01:46:19.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's completely in their hands.
[01:46:19.900 --> 01:46:33.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that what you have is them with their great warships doing essentially what's referred to in military terms as a stand-down, you know, and them facing off against each other, these two great powers and the coming together of their minds.
[01:46:33.860 --> 01:46:36.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the decisive, you know, question here.
[01:46:36.540 --> 01:46:40.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the critical thing in terms of how things are going to change in the world.
[01:46:40.580 --> 01:46:54.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, and it was heavy because yet they sent Bush's launch out into these very turbulent seas and I think actually subjected him to some personal risk so that this choreography could come off without a hitch, you know.
[01:46:54.680 --> 01:46:57.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure he got seasick in it.
[01:46:57.800 --> 01:47:12.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think beyond that, you know, in my view, there's turbulent seas throughout the world that threaten to disrupt, you know, their plans for domination and imperialist maneuvering and advancing the interests of both their empires.
[01:47:13.100 --> 01:47:18.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: And in my view, I think what's at the bottom of this forced patriotism thing here in the U.S.
[01:47:18.180 --> 01:47:22.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: is that we live in a sick and dying empire that's desperately clutching at its symbols.
[01:47:22.940 --> 01:47:41.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to go back to another bit of imperialist choreography which was the Republican National Convention in 1984 when Reagan was being renominated because that's where all this really began in terms of this particular, you know, this focused attempt,
[01:47:41.320 --> 01:47:57.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, to rehabilitate the American people to the whole concept of patriotism because Republican National Convention in 1984 when Reagan was being renominated, the theme of it was new patriotism, bringing back America prouder, stronger, and greater.
[01:47:57.140 --> 01:48:01.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: There was red, white, and blue flags, balloons, everything.
[01:48:02.080 --> 01:48:04.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: The streets were lined with American flags.
[01:48:04.020 --> 01:48:23.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was somewhat of an American Nuremberg rally, you know, trying to rehabilitate the American people to the whole concept of love for the flag, love for the country, which the rulers of this country had to admit was something that suffered, a concept that suffered serious damage ever since the end of the Vietnam War.
[01:48:24.300 --> 01:48:28.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that they've had big problems with for a number of years.
[01:48:28.360 --> 01:48:34.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the Republican Convention was an attempt to try to reverse those verdicts, to try to turn the situation around.
[01:48:35.200 --> 01:48:43.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: And in addition to this theme of new patriotism, if people think back, well, this was right after the U.S.'s invasion of Grenada.
[01:48:43.220 --> 01:48:47.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was right after the threats against Nicaragua to say, uncle, or to face the same thing.
[01:48:47.600 --> 01:48:55.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was right after Reagan's little jokes about having outlawed the Soviet Union, and the bombing was going to begin in five minutes.
[01:48:55.980 --> 01:49:03.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: So it was quite a tense situation in the world, and I don't think that they were trying to whip up this new patriotism for no reason.
[01:49:03.780 --> 01:49:06.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was very conscious and deliberate and calculated.
[01:49:06.820 --> 01:49:13.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: So the whole point of going to Dallas, we in the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade, we definitely wanted to be there.
[01:49:13.680 --> 01:49:23.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: We thought it was our internationalist duty like to call out, you know, Reagan and this whole Rambo, America, Uber, all this mentality that was being pumped out of that convention.
[01:49:23.640 --> 01:49:30.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: But there was also a number of other like youth, about 150 that were in the demonstration from a lot of different political trends.
[01:49:30.260 --> 01:49:51.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the thing that united everyone was wanting to go up into the face of this whole outpouring of American, vicious American chauvinism and nationalism and challenge it and say that these people don't represent the thinking of a whole lot of people in this country because that was the whole point of the convention to get over with this mandate of the people,
[01:49:51.760 --> 01:49:58.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, that Reagan had the blessing of all the people in this country to do whatever heinous crimes or invasions were to follow.
[01:49:59.080 --> 01:50:03.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, what sharper way to do that than to burn the American flag?
[01:50:03.640 --> 01:50:20.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, that's what I think was extremely effective about what we did was that it actually did pierce some of this Rambo, America Uber Allis theme and choreography of this convention very effectively.
[01:50:20.460 --> 01:50:28.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the international news media that was assembled there, the cameramen from Japan, from Italy, from Rome, from Mexico City, shot it out on the wires.
[01:50:28.480 --> 01:50:34.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: They trained their cameras on the burning flag remnants on the ground and it went out over the wires internationally.
[01:50:34.540 --> 01:50:40.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this act of burning the American flag, I think, has international communicatability.
[01:50:40.360 --> 01:50:46.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, people throughout the world can understand it even if they speak different languages or wherever they're at in the world.
[01:50:46.680 --> 01:50:51.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this act of burning the flag is not, it's something that people don't understand.
[01:50:51.380 --> 01:51:00.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it did convey that within the belly of the beast, so to speak, there's some people here that hate the madness that this system has brought down on people throughout the world.
[01:51:00.800 --> 01:51:21.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing about burning the flag in Dallas was you have to look at the fact that this just isn't something that goes on here, but it's something that goes on in many parts throughout the world when people rise up and they want to make a statement of intense hatred or show their condemnation or their outrage and their anger and how infuriated they are at the vicious regimes,
[01:51:22.160 --> 01:51:30.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: the death squads, the brutal dictatorships, the starvation, the famine, the suffering, that this system of imperialism backs up throughout the world.
[01:51:30.400 --> 01:51:35.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: When they want to show that and they want to do it vividly, one of the first things they do, they go out into the streets in a demonstration.
[01:51:35.620 --> 01:51:50.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to have an uprising, whether it's the students in Seoul, South Korea, or people in San Salvador, or people in Peru, or Palestine, or South Africa, Brazil, or Argentina, or countless places throughout the world that if I stayed here, it would take me like hours to like run them down.
[01:51:51.360 --> 01:51:57.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Egypt, Brazil, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, name it.
[01:51:57.760 --> 01:52:05.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: When people want to go out and they want to make an intense, you know, a furious statement, their hatred for what this system has done to people, they burn the American flag.
[01:52:05.560 --> 01:52:07.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's the way it is.
[01:52:07.420 --> 01:52:09.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that's what I call a thousand points of light.
[01:52:10.360 --> 01:52:22.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I think that this is an excellent situation that not only, you know, is this going on throughout the world, but that people can see that, like here, as I say, within the belly of the beast are some people that feel that way.
[01:52:22.500 --> 01:52:31.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think what the events of the last year have shown, in particular the last few months, is that these views can become contagious.
[01:52:31.820 --> 01:52:39.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: Other reactionary attacks that the government is bringing down on the people has only brought forth more resistance.
[01:52:39.600 --> 01:52:54.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it wasn't just myself I, you know, want to bring out that was like burning the flag on July 4th this past year, after the Supreme Court brought down its Webster decision, further restricting women's rights to abortion.
[01:52:54.440 --> 01:53:03.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if people think back on July 4th, this past July 4th, there were women in a number of cities in this country that went out and burned the American flag.
[01:53:03.580 --> 01:53:10.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: In Boston, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, San Francisco, New York, and about eight or ten other cities.
[01:53:10.640 --> 01:53:12.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Buffalo, I can't remember them all.
[01:53:12.280 --> 01:53:13.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was great.
[01:53:13.720 --> 01:53:26.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I was thinking about, as I was looking at it, you know, a lot of these women must be feeling like they're so-called, that's July 4th being Independence Day, that their independence must be pretty vacuous, you know, pretty meaningless in a country that is,
[01:53:26.980 --> 01:53:45.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: on top of all the other degradation that women are subjected to in this society, that the state is going to further put these restrictions on their reproductive systems and tell them, you know, that you're basically going to be a breeder, or control their lives by controlling their reproductive systems.
[01:53:45.800 --> 01:53:54.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought it was excellent that these women went out and burned the American flag, you know, as one expression of their hatred for this.
[01:53:54.760 --> 01:54:05.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that you have to see that this American flag is flying over an American nightmare, American dream for some, American nightmare for many more in this country and throughout the world.
[01:54:05.520 --> 01:54:09.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that once people get a glimpse of that, you know, once people...
[01:54:09.400 --> 01:54:20.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what's happened in the whole course of this last year, since this case was brought to the Supreme Court, that there's been greater debate over these questions than any time since the 60s.
[01:54:20.960 --> 01:54:22.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's an excellent situation, I believe.
[01:54:23.160 --> 01:54:30.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: That more people are starting to get a glimpse that, yes, this is the flag that flew over the genocide of Native American people.
[01:54:30.460 --> 01:54:36.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the flag that was carried by the 7th Cavalry when they went in to massacre the Sioux Indians that wounded me.
[01:54:36.920 --> 01:54:41.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is the flag that did fly from the stern of slave ships through the Middle Passage.
[01:54:41.900 --> 01:55:07.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: It brought black people here in chains and shackles, you know, and subjected them to endless repression and suffering and literally enslavement, you know, right down to their modern forms of enslavement and captivity in this country today, where they're kept in lockdown in the inner cities of this country in the ghettos and routinely shot down by the hundreds every year in this country by the
[01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:07.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: police.
[01:55:07.380 --> 01:55:09.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's always called justifiable homicide.
[01:55:10.220 --> 01:55:22.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is the flag that is, like, issued, it's standard issued to these racist mobs, like in Bensonhurst, you know, that carried it along with their watermelons when they were proud of the murder of Yusuf Hawkins.
[01:55:22.420 --> 01:55:35.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the flag that is flying over the detention camps, the internment camps for immigrants who are fleeing these death squads and fleeing the starvation that the United States is directly responsible for in Central America and Mexico.
[01:55:35.860 --> 01:55:42.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And now the flag flies over these detention camps, these concentration camps that are holding them in South Texas.
[01:55:42.820 --> 01:55:46.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the flag that is flying over all that.
[01:55:46.500 --> 01:56:08.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a great thing that in their quest, in their desperate necessity to try to bring about an atmosphere of patriotic flag worshipping and forced obedience and forced patriotism and people saluting the flag and hating who they're told to hate.
[01:56:09.000 --> 01:56:10.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when they're told to hate them.
[01:56:11.440 --> 01:56:21.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's what I think is the bottom line behind all this forced patriotism and this fascist flag amendment and this fanaticism with the flag.
[01:56:21.360 --> 01:56:28.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's just Bush trying to make up for some coup plots that turned into coup flops in Panama.
[01:56:28.600 --> 01:56:30.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think we've got to look a lot deeper in that.
[01:56:31.060 --> 01:56:38.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's just the demagoguery of some politicians worried about their conservative constituencies back out in Arkansas.
[01:56:39.240 --> 01:56:44.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think this thing I'm saying about a sick and dying empire desperately clutching at its symbols is real.
[01:56:44.960 --> 01:56:56.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that they know that their system is in a severe crisis today and that they face many challenges throughout the world and many places that threaten to erupt completely out of control.
[01:56:57.080 --> 01:57:15.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that this thing I'm saying about needing people to hate who they're told to hate when they're told to hate them, that if tomorrow the United States decides that the government in El Salvador is just too shaky despite their 70,000 people that have been massacred by the Salvadoran death squads directly backed up by the United States,
[01:57:16.180 --> 01:57:27.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: despite the billions of dollars that have been poured into the regime there and arming and training it, that they need to directly send in the United States military troops to back up that vicious regime.
[01:57:27.840 --> 01:57:42.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: Or if they decide that they need to invade into Nicaragua to overthrow the Sandinistas and to put in a government more subservient to the United States' domination of that region, then they're the ones.
[01:57:42.440 --> 01:57:47.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're the ones that are desperately needing people hating who they're told to hate when they're told to hate them.
[01:57:47.720 --> 01:57:49.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the situation they confront.
[01:57:49.700 --> 01:57:53.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think not just in Central America, but in many corners of the earth.
[01:57:53.640 --> 01:58:00.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: In the Middle East, in South Africa, in the Philippines, things threaten to explode completely out of control for them.
[01:58:00.660 --> 01:58:05.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think they threaten to explode out of control for them right here in the belly of the beast.
[01:58:05.560 --> 01:58:08.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they need to force the flag on people here now more than ever.
[01:58:09.020 --> 01:58:21.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's an excellent situation that all this is going on and that they're so weak and that they're so desperate that they're trying to, you know, as I say, force the flag on people.
[01:58:21.620 --> 01:58:27.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: And from my standpoint, you know, we want to turn up the heat, not just on the flag, but on the whole system of U.S.
[01:58:27.980 --> 01:58:29.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: imperialism that the flag represents.
[01:58:29.660 --> 01:58:32.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: And tick-tock, tick-tock, time's running out for it.
[01:58:32.600 --> 01:58:39.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we need revolution to get to do away with this system and all the crimes and all the oppression that brings down on people all over the world.
[01:58:40.100 --> 01:58:41.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I'm shooting for.
[01:58:41.540 --> 01:58:46.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Not just, you know, burning the flag, but for the day we can bring down the empire that the flag represents.
[01:58:46.980 --> 01:58:47.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[01:59:00.450 --> 01:59:04.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if they lock us up, we lock it up, and God gives us the plot to kick off.
[01:59:04.250 --> 01:59:04.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go!
[02:00:21.710 --> 02:00:41.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Would you look around you now And tell me what you see Faces full of hate and fear Faces full of me You feel the rumblings
[02:00:46.310 --> 02:00:49.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: Do you know what I mean?
[02:00:51.750 --> 02:01:19.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Run, you better run You know the end is getting near Feel the wind of some whistling past your ear As they try to get you Where it will upset you down Now you know what I mean
[02:01:22.790 --> 02:01:35.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Someday you will see How long we've waited for the time To show you how we've died To get together with you
[02:02:10.710 --> 02:02:17.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: Twist and turn your head around till everything's unclear.
[02:02:18.350 --> 02:02:24.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: Twist and turn your arm around until it is nothing.
[02:02:35.790 --> 02:02:38.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now you know what I mean.
[02:02:40.950 --> 02:02:47.870]  [SPEAKER_17]: Can you look around you now and tell us what to mean?
[02:02:48.870 --> 02:02:55.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: Can you look inside yourself and tell us what you see?
[02:02:57.590 --> 02:03:05.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: As you feel the rumblings, as your head comes crumbling down...
[02:03:59.820 --> 02:04:08.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's the band called Chicago Transit Authority, who became the band called Chicago and put out all kinds of albums.
[02:04:08.260 --> 02:04:13.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: But that was their first one back in the 60s.
[02:04:13.640 --> 02:04:24.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we heard Prologue August 29, 1968, followed by Someday, also, on that same date.
[02:04:24.180 --> 02:04:32.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that was preceded by and addressed by Joey Johnson at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
[02:04:34.720 --> 02:04:47.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: And he was speaking about flag burning, what motivated him to begin this form of protest and why he is continuing to do it to this day.
[02:04:47.580 --> 02:04:59.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: And again, our thanks to the Student Activities Board at the State University at Stony Brook and to WUSB in Stony Brook for their help in bringing that to us here at WBAI in New York.
[02:04:59.060 --> 02:05:00.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: My name is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:05:01.000 --> 02:05:02.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm filling in for Tom Whisker.
[02:05:02.340 --> 02:05:04.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: We'll be here for about another half hour or so.
[02:05:04.680 --> 02:05:08.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we're taking your calls at 279-3400.
[02:05:09.940 --> 02:05:16.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, there was a piece not too long ago in Harper's Magazine called, When is a Flag Desecrated?
[02:05:17.060 --> 02:05:23.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is from Scenarios and Questions for Anti-Flag Desecration Lawmakers.
[02:05:23.240 --> 02:05:29.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a pamphlet written by Ken Nalton and Barbara Bean Nalton and published in Merrimack, New Hampshire.
[02:05:30.100 --> 02:05:37.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, this pamphlet lists actions that could be considered illegal under the flag-burning bill passed by Congress in October.
[02:05:37.800 --> 02:05:41.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: And part of it was reprinted in Harper's Magazine.
[02:05:42.940 --> 02:05:48.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: And you should listen up, because if you do one of these things, you could be in a lot of trouble.
[02:05:48.520 --> 02:05:50.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, take notes.
[02:05:50.620 --> 02:05:52.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: Get a pen and pencil or paper or whatever.
[02:05:53.680 --> 02:06:03.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: And feel free to expand upon these ideas, too, so that we know that we're not going to break any laws here by accident or on purpose.
[02:06:03.640 --> 02:06:03.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:06:04.620 --> 02:06:06.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: Be careful if you do any of the following.
[02:06:07.200 --> 02:06:09.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: Someone makes good pictures of U.S.
[02:06:10.440 --> 02:06:22.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: flags, one- or two-sided, on paper or cloth, by color photography, color photocopy, or a computer within one of those neat inkjet printers, and then publicly tramples and burns the pictures.
[02:06:25.640 --> 02:06:26.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:06:27.740 --> 02:06:28.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's see.
[02:06:28.780 --> 02:06:37.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: An iconoclast uses small cloth pictures of the flag as handkerchiefs and distributes large ones as blankets to New York's homeless.
[02:06:38.380 --> 02:06:39.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yep.
[02:06:39.260 --> 02:06:40.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: Desecration of the flag there.
[02:06:41.020 --> 02:06:41.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: How about this?
[02:06:41.740 --> 02:06:48.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: A protester projects a picture of a flag onto a white wall and then hurls mud or paint onto the image.
[02:06:50.480 --> 02:06:58.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: A flag is mounted over the screen of a TV set in a darkened room, and videotapes are played, clearly visible, depicting the My Lai Massacre.
[02:06:58.940 --> 02:07:00.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or the My Lai Massacre, actually.
[02:07:00.280 --> 02:07:08.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: A flag is left for many months in strong sunlight, with an area the shape of a Nazi swastika protected from fading.
[02:07:08.820 --> 02:07:11.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: The process and result are displayed.
[02:07:12.760 --> 02:07:21.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or a magician burns a flag and dumps the remnants into a demonstrably empty can, then pulls an unblemished flag from the can.
[02:07:26.170 --> 02:07:32.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: An artist displays an apparently mutilated flag consisting, in fact, of several intact flags, variously folded.
[02:07:33.950 --> 02:07:35.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: You can see where this is going.
[02:07:36.050 --> 02:07:40.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: An artist displays a badly mutilated copy of the flag in cyan, black, and orange.
[02:07:40.970 --> 02:07:44.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: A bright strobe light creates for viewers a red, white, and blue afterimage.
[02:07:45.390 --> 02:07:50.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: A thoroughly indestructible metallic flag is soaked with a flammable liquid and burned.
[02:07:50.730 --> 02:07:57.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: A protester wall mounts a large flag behind cellophane, then paints or smears obscenities on the transparent covering.
[02:08:00.420 --> 02:08:01.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: How about this?
[02:08:01.260 --> 02:08:07.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: A computer animation programmer creates a realistic video of what seems to be a flag burning to charred shreds.
[02:08:08.140 --> 02:08:12.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Protesters take flags to Canada, or to the grounds of a foreign embassy, mutilate them, and bring them back.
[02:08:14.220 --> 02:08:21.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Dissidents with video equipment broadcast live to the mainland, a flag desecration taking place on a private ship on the high seas.
[02:08:22.620 --> 02:08:27.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: A group of consenting adults gathers for a private ceremony of anger and lament.
[02:08:27.380 --> 02:08:28.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Flags are torn and burned.
[02:08:29.880 --> 02:08:37.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: A mangled flag is hung in a private dwelling in such a way that it can be seen from a public sidewalk with slight or moderate or extreme difficulty.
[02:08:38.940 --> 02:08:44.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Someone constructs an already desecrated flag by sewing together burned fragments of red, white, and blue cloth.
[02:08:45.900 --> 02:08:53.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: Demonstrators burn bunches of red, white, and blue streamers, copies of the Bill of Rights, maps of the United States, or pictures of Uncle Sam.
[02:08:54.120 --> 02:09:02.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: And finally, an artist uses a thousand tiny flags as minute elements in an obscene picture.
[02:09:03.120 --> 02:09:12.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: All those, could they be seen as violations of the flag desecration law passed in October?
[02:09:12.680 --> 02:09:23.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, that was from a pamphlet called Scenarios and Questions for Anti-Flag Desecration Lawmakers, put out by Ken Nelton and Barbara Bean Nelton of Merrimack, New Hampshire.
[02:09:23.620 --> 02:09:28.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it was printed in a recent edition, I believe the current edition, of Harper's Magazine.
[02:09:29.390 --> 02:09:32.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: And our thanks to them for sending that over to us.
[02:09:33.750 --> 02:09:38.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, there's all kinds of other ways, as I mentioned before, of having fun with this.
[02:09:38.980 --> 02:09:43.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, it's a serious issue, yeah, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun with it.
[02:09:44.510 --> 02:09:49.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I've come up with lots of possible scenarios, solutions.
[02:09:49.160 --> 02:10:00.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, why don't we simply make it a law that all flags be made out of completely indestructible material?
[02:10:00.840 --> 02:10:01.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: It can't burn it.
[02:10:02.120 --> 02:10:02.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: It can't rip it.
[02:10:03.670 --> 02:10:05.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: It can't destroy it in any way.
[02:10:05.380 --> 02:10:05.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: It lasts forever.
[02:10:06.540 --> 02:10:12.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe we can make it nuclear radioactive of some sort, you know, with a 10,000-year half-life or something.
[02:10:12.600 --> 02:10:16.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, all flags are radioactive, and no one's going to want to go near it to touch it in the first place.
[02:10:17.060 --> 02:10:18.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, that could work.
[02:10:18.710 --> 02:10:20.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or, how about this?
[02:10:21.600 --> 02:10:25.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: You make it so that the flags are extremely flammable.
[02:10:25.300 --> 02:10:28.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, if you light them, they explode in your face.
[02:10:28.300 --> 02:10:30.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: And anyone who tries is killed instantly.
[02:10:32.140 --> 02:10:34.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, you know, not many people will want to do that.
[02:10:37.950 --> 02:10:48.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or, burning a flag requires a permit by the fire marshal, because it causes such explosions and things like that, and the fire marshal is instructed by the government never to give such a permit.
[02:10:48.840 --> 02:10:55.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: And therefore, if you burn a flag, you're in violation of a fire code, which not many people will see as a violation of democracy.
[02:10:56.950 --> 02:10:58.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: They should come to me first.
[02:10:58.300 --> 02:10:59.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I have all these solutions.
[02:10:59.280 --> 02:10:59.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: How about this?
[02:10:59.840 --> 02:11:03.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: We simply change our way of looking at things.
[02:11:03.300 --> 02:11:12.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: And instead of it being a form of abuse, we make burning the flag into the ultimate show of respect.
[02:11:14.220 --> 02:11:16.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're a patriotic American, you like the flag?
[02:11:16.400 --> 02:11:17.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go out there and burn it.
[02:11:17.980 --> 02:11:26.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: And as it's erupting in splendid flame and smoke, you just think of the glory.
[02:11:26.960 --> 02:11:28.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: The bombs bursting in air.
[02:11:29.760 --> 02:11:30.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know?
[02:11:30.760 --> 02:11:35.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: The raging fires by old glory and all that kind of thing.
[02:11:36.080 --> 02:11:37.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Old faithful, I meant to say.
[02:11:37.300 --> 02:11:37.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry.
[02:11:39.870 --> 02:11:42.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's just... you change the rules around.
[02:11:45.700 --> 02:11:50.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: So that's one of my solutions, one of many solutions that I've come up with.
[02:11:50.560 --> 02:11:59.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'm surprised that more imaginative types have not secured these solutions so that this won't be a problem.
[02:12:01.260 --> 02:12:01.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think?
[02:12:02.240 --> 02:12:03.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[02:12:03.240 --> 02:12:04.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: By the way, I just wanted to do this one thing here.
[02:12:05.420 --> 02:12:08.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: I tore out a little piece of paper from today's New York Times.
[02:12:08.020 --> 02:12:09.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: It doesn't say anything on it.
[02:12:09.320 --> 02:12:10.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's completely blank.
[02:12:10.400 --> 02:12:14.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: But what I'm now doing is drawing a rectangle on it.
[02:12:15.660 --> 02:12:23.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: And up in the little corner there, I'm drawing another little rectangle, which I'll put some dots to represent stars.
[02:12:25.200 --> 02:12:29.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, and then I'll draw some lines to represent the stripes.
[02:12:29.800 --> 02:12:33.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: And here I have a representation of the American flag.
[02:12:35.320 --> 02:12:38.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: A symbol, if you will, of our country.
[02:12:38.920 --> 02:12:44.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: This piece of paper that I'm holding, it's not a very nice-looking flag, but nonetheless, what is a flag?
[02:12:44.560 --> 02:12:45.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's a symbol.
[02:12:45.380 --> 02:12:48.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is a symbol, if I've ever seen one.
[02:12:49.760 --> 02:12:50.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Listen.
[02:12:54.190 --> 02:12:55.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: What have I just done?
[02:12:57.830 --> 02:12:59.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are there going to be police officers waiting for me now?
[02:13:00.110 --> 02:13:01.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Have I broken the law?
[02:13:01.450 --> 02:13:03.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Have I committed the ultimate sin?
[02:13:06.790 --> 02:13:08.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Am I being very silly?
[02:13:08.250 --> 02:13:08.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think so.
[02:13:09.430 --> 02:13:13.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think we all are being a bit silly if we believe this kind of nonsense.
[02:13:14.590 --> 02:13:16.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: So how do we put an end to it?
[02:13:16.010 --> 02:13:17.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the question I have.
[02:13:17.670 --> 02:13:19.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[02:13:19.790 --> 02:13:21.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's our telephone number.
[02:13:21.790 --> 02:13:23.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Area code 212.
[02:13:23.390 --> 02:13:25.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think of the flag-burning issue?
[02:13:25.750 --> 02:13:27.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think it's an issue at all?
[02:13:28.170 --> 02:13:32.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: And how do we get out of it now if we have made a mistake?
[02:13:32.990 --> 02:13:33.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:13:34.150 --> 02:13:34.670]  [SPEAKER_27]: Hi.
[02:13:34.970 --> 02:13:35.170]  [SPEAKER_27]: Hi.
[02:13:35.310 --> 02:13:35.690]  [SPEAKER_27]: Good show.
[02:13:36.050 --> 02:13:36.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you.
[02:13:36.830 --> 02:13:43.410]  [SPEAKER_27]: I'm actually against these flag-burners because they're just playing into the hands of George Bush and the flag-wavers.
[02:13:43.930 --> 02:13:48.570]  [SPEAKER_27]: It's like if there was no such thing as flag-burners, George Bush would have to hire some people to do it.
[02:13:48.950 --> 02:13:50.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, maybe he has.
[02:13:50.110 --> 02:13:50.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's a good point.
[02:13:51.050 --> 02:13:54.450]  [SPEAKER_27]: The one who most wants to see flags burned so he can exploit it.
[02:13:54.550 --> 02:13:56.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: It certainly does help him, doesn't it?
[02:13:56.090 --> 02:13:58.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, look, if these people...
[02:13:58.330 --> 02:13:59.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: If Joey Johnson was not there...
[02:14:00.190 --> 02:14:05.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, I always suspect these things when these horrible terrorist actions occur...
[02:14:05.430 --> 02:14:07.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is just, you know, this is just theory.
[02:14:07.990 --> 02:14:12.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: But it sure benefits those in power when these horrible things happen that bring us all together.
[02:14:13.410 --> 02:14:22.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, of course, you know, I don't really believe that, but it doesn't hurt to have people out there burning flags so that they can make laws like this and bring us all together.
[02:14:22.790 --> 02:14:24.950]  [SPEAKER_27]: Just like what's happening in Europe, in a sense.
[02:14:25.130 --> 02:14:28.730]  [SPEAKER_27]: It's the last thing the Bush administration, especially the Pentagon, wants.
[02:14:29.430 --> 02:14:33.730]  [SPEAKER_27]: They decided to build the MX, the stealth, the trident, and they need an excuse.
[02:14:34.250 --> 02:14:35.750]  [SPEAKER_27]: And don't think they won't find it.
[02:14:36.090 --> 02:14:42.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, it's going to be kind of hard now with all these people rallying for peace and everything, but I'm sure, you know, it seems like we're trying to find another war somewhere.
[02:14:42.330 --> 02:14:44.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: If it's not in the El Salvador, Philippines, we'll find one.
[02:14:44.850 --> 02:14:45.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: We'll just keep looking.
[02:14:46.310 --> 02:14:48.450]  [SPEAKER_27]: Also, burning the flag does hurt people.
[02:14:49.650 --> 02:14:50.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: Emotionally.
[02:14:50.510 --> 02:14:53.970]  [SPEAKER_27]: If an issue is made out of it, it shouldn't, but it does.
[02:14:54.830 --> 02:15:02.470]  [SPEAKER_27]: Since people have been conditioned into believing that the flag stands for all they think is good, burning it really causes them to
[02:15:08.030 --> 02:15:12.990]  [SPEAKER_27]: evolve to our level of being informed, they don't deserve to be emotionally attacked.
[02:15:13.270 --> 02:15:18.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yeah, I don't like to look at it that way, evolving to our level, but certainly not seeing it in the same light that we see it.
[02:15:18.950 --> 02:15:22.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's, they're being cheated because they're not being tolerant.
[02:15:23.050 --> 02:15:31.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: And yes, if everybody, or if those that were offended simply ignored the people that were being offensive to them, everybody could go about their business.
[02:15:31.310 --> 02:15:34.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, when someone is offensive to me, I don't make a federal case out of it.
[02:15:34.430 --> 02:15:36.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: I try to ignore it and get on with my life.
[02:15:36.210 --> 02:15:42.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, if they're doing something that violates somebody's rights, clearly, obviously, I'll take action against that, but...
[02:15:42.290 --> 02:15:48.270]  [SPEAKER_27]: But if you think it has implications, like you mentioned freedom of speech for neo-Nazis, is it hurting anyone?
[02:15:48.430 --> 02:15:54.710]  [SPEAKER_27]: Do you think Jewish people or anyone hearing neo-Nazis are thinking of freedom of speech or the anguish of their memories?
[02:15:54.910 --> 02:16:00.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, but no one is forcing them to listen, and they can just walk away and turn their backs on it, and if it's, you know...
[02:16:00.890 --> 02:16:04.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: But they think it has implications about the country becoming like that.
[02:16:04.430 --> 02:16:05.830]  [SPEAKER_27]: They're going to be anguished about it.
[02:16:05.870 --> 02:16:11.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right, but if there are implications like that, simply banning the speech or banning the meeting is not going to take those away.
[02:16:11.930 --> 02:16:13.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, they have to look deeper.
[02:16:13.850 --> 02:16:20.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, and if there is something seriously wrong with the country that makes people want to burn flags, then obviously, sooner or later, that's going to have to be addressed.
[02:16:21.950 --> 02:16:24.370]  [SPEAKER_27]: Also, the flag burners are not making their point.
[02:16:24.390 --> 02:16:32.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: If the flag doesn't stand for all that's good, why, from the flag burners' point of view, does it stand for all that's bad that the government has done?
[02:16:32.730 --> 02:16:33.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:16:33.410 --> 02:16:34.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, to them it does.
[02:16:34.650 --> 02:16:37.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: I can't say I agree with them, you know, but I do see...
[02:16:37.850 --> 02:16:39.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: I do see a point in what they're saying.
[02:16:40.030 --> 02:16:42.410]  [SPEAKER_27]: But the flag wavers are not getting the message.
[02:16:42.570 --> 02:16:43.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Obviously not.
[02:16:43.850 --> 02:16:47.590]  [SPEAKER_27]: They think it's just a contradiction to what they believe in, all that's good.
[02:16:48.230 --> 02:16:52.830]  [SPEAKER_27]: They're not understanding that these flag burners are saying that the country has done some bad things.
[02:16:53.790 --> 02:16:54.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:16:54.490 --> 02:16:56.610]  [SPEAKER_27]: To see them as the opposite of what they believe in.
[02:16:56.610 --> 02:17:07.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: And in a very big sense, it makes things a lot harder for people that don't burn flags but do criticize the government to continue doing so because then they're looked upon in the same light.
[02:17:07.350 --> 02:17:11.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: But in a sense, perhaps this is something that we have to go through to re-examine our values a bit.
[02:17:12.210 --> 02:17:20.250]  [SPEAKER_27]: I just think these flag burners are too self-righteous, even though they're probably correct on the individual issues they bring up, and they're unfeeling.
[02:17:20.450 --> 02:17:20.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:17:20.830 --> 02:17:23.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: But again, as I said to the other caller, that's not relevant to the issue.
[02:17:23.950 --> 02:17:26.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, it's a question of do they have the right or don't they?
[02:17:27.790 --> 02:17:28.670]  [SPEAKER_27]: Do they have the right?
[02:17:28.870 --> 02:17:29.050]  [SPEAKER_27]: No.
[02:17:29.330 --> 02:17:29.590]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well...
[02:17:29.590 --> 02:17:29.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think?
[02:17:30.070 --> 02:17:30.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do they have the right?
[02:17:31.330 --> 02:17:39.970]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, if they really believe that if they really don't want people to burn flags, I think the worst thing they could have done was made a law because it would have been isolated if they hadn't.
[02:17:40.090 --> 02:17:43.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, we would have forgotten about this already, you know, a week afterwards.
[02:17:43.890 --> 02:17:47.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: We would have forgotten about it and people aren't exactly rushing out to the stores to buy flags to burn them.
[02:17:47.670 --> 02:17:48.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: I haven't noticed that.
[02:17:48.470 --> 02:17:51.130]  [SPEAKER_27]: It was simply George Bush's campaign thing.
[02:17:51.350 --> 02:17:57.790]  [SPEAKER_27]: He needed people and he knew that And it's gotten way out of hand, and it's wasted a lot of time and money.
[02:17:58.190 --> 02:18:00.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we should be talking about more important things, I realize that.
[02:18:01.190 --> 02:18:05.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: But this is something that, you know, if unchecked, it could lead to a lot more.
[02:18:06.190 --> 02:18:08.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I hope it doesn't, but it could.
[02:18:08.670 --> 02:18:09.330]  [SPEAKER_27]: Okay, thank you.
[02:18:09.390 --> 02:18:10.030]  [SPEAKER_27]: It's a great show.
[02:18:10.210 --> 02:18:10.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[02:18:10.850 --> 02:18:11.130]  [SPEAKER_27]: Okay, bye.
[02:18:12.650 --> 02:18:13.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:18:13.810 --> 02:18:14.170]  [SPEAKER_27]: Hello.
[02:18:14.390 --> 02:18:14.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: How are you doing?
[02:18:15.030 --> 02:18:17.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I had to comment on this flag business.
[02:18:17.230 --> 02:18:17.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[02:18:18.050 --> 02:18:18.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Am I on the air yet?
[02:18:19.050 --> 02:18:19.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, you are.
[02:18:20.890 --> 02:18:21.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[02:18:21.490 --> 02:18:24.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, first of all, about Joe Schmoe that I was just talking.
[02:18:25.310 --> 02:18:26.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: People have the right to do whatever...
[02:18:26.550 --> 02:18:27.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a piece of cloth.
[02:18:27.550 --> 02:18:28.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why can't they burn it?
[02:18:28.510 --> 02:18:29.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't understand this.
[02:18:29.670 --> 02:18:29.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:18:31.470 --> 02:18:34.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, what I think is everybody has the right to do what they want out there.
[02:18:34.910 --> 02:18:36.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
[02:18:37.110 --> 02:18:39.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I don't think he was disagreeing with that so much.
[02:18:40.370 --> 02:18:40.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[02:18:40.770 --> 02:18:44.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: He was just raising some more issues about the motives of the people that were burning the flags.
[02:18:45.430 --> 02:18:47.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, who are these people that were burning the flags that he said?
[02:18:48.050 --> 02:18:52.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we've been airing some speeches by some Vietnam veterans against the war.
[02:18:53.210 --> 02:18:53.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[02:18:53.970 --> 02:18:55.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Dave Blalock and Joey Johnson.
[02:18:56.450 --> 02:19:00.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: And Joey Johnson was the person that originally started this whole Supreme Court action.
[02:19:00.890 --> 02:19:04.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was his case that was ruled upon this past summer.
[02:19:04.250 --> 02:19:06.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the Supreme Court, in fact, had agreed with him.
[02:19:06.350 --> 02:19:07.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's what started this whole controversy.
[02:19:08.590 --> 02:19:09.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:19:09.030 --> 02:19:15.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, um, there are other people, I'm sure, that burn flags, but those are the most famous ones.
[02:19:15.930 --> 02:19:23.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because, well, um, I'm in a neighborhood, and I've seen a couple of kids burning a flag, and a bunch of blacks went and beat them up.
[02:19:23.990 --> 02:19:24.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:19:25.450 --> 02:19:26.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, and I think that was, you know...
[02:19:26.910 --> 02:19:28.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, what does that tell you?
[02:19:29.530 --> 02:19:31.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, what does that tell me?
[02:19:32.410 --> 02:19:34.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think, well, I think it was wrong and right.
[02:19:34.890 --> 02:19:36.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think the guys should have beat them up.
[02:19:36.510 --> 02:19:38.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think they should have asked them why they were burning the flag.
[02:19:39.250 --> 02:19:39.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:19:40.130 --> 02:19:46.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, so I went over there and tried to talk to the guys, but, um, they must, you know, beat me up, too, so...
[02:19:46.570 --> 02:19:48.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: They did, or they were going to?
[02:19:48.750 --> 02:19:49.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were going to, yeah.
[02:19:49.850 --> 02:19:50.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:19:50.210 --> 02:19:53.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to try and stop them and everything, but, um, you know, they weren't listening.
[02:19:54.450 --> 02:19:57.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I think a lot of blacks are not into that flag business.
[02:19:58.090 --> 02:19:59.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, burning the flags.
[02:19:59.330 --> 02:20:02.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I don't, you know, I think it crosses racial and religious lines.
[02:20:02.550 --> 02:20:06.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, you know, nationalism is not something that's confined to one group of people.
[02:20:07.030 --> 02:20:08.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, and, and...
[02:20:09.050 --> 02:20:17.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: It might seem strange to some people that, uh, minority groups would, uh, would be patriotic or nationalistic, but, uh, I don't find that strange.
[02:20:18.510 --> 02:20:19.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know?
[02:20:19.190 --> 02:20:19.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yeah.
[02:20:20.270 --> 02:20:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, well, I just want to express my opinions and everything.
[02:20:22.450 --> 02:20:23.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[02:20:23.250 --> 02:20:24.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, see you later.
[02:20:24.610 --> 02:20:25.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[02:20:25.290 --> 02:20:25.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Bye-bye.
[02:20:25.990 --> 02:20:30.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: You have to, uh, look at situations like that and say, you know, who was, who was wrong there?
[02:20:30.690 --> 02:20:38.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, when someone uses physical force to make their point, I think they've automatically forfeited whatever it is they were trying to prove.
[02:20:38.450 --> 02:20:42.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because once you resort to that, you know, why?
[02:20:42.250 --> 02:20:43.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why must you resort to that?
[02:20:43.690 --> 02:20:44.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: You ever wonder?
[02:20:45.470 --> 02:20:48.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, it's because you can't put it into words.
[02:20:48.810 --> 02:20:53.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's not because it's something so magical and wonderful that, uh, can't possibly be expressed in our language.
[02:20:53.910 --> 02:20:56.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's just, you can't think of something to justify.
[02:20:56.050 --> 02:20:56.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: You get upset.
[02:20:57.390 --> 02:20:59.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: And so you, you lash out with your fists.
[02:20:59.530 --> 02:21:04.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's, uh, that's more of a problem, I think, than someone that's simply doing something symbolic.
[02:21:04.810 --> 02:21:06.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, all it is, is a symbol.
[02:21:06.530 --> 02:21:13.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, if they set, if they set a flag on fire and it has a post office attached to it or something, I could see being a little bit angry.
[02:21:13.970 --> 02:21:15.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh, this is only a symbol.
[02:21:15.910 --> 02:21:18.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if you don't agree, walk the other way.
[02:21:18.470 --> 02:21:20.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is how we get through every day of our lives.
[02:21:21.170 --> 02:21:26.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't see why I should stop with, uh, with a piece of cloth that represents our, our nation.
[02:21:26.930 --> 02:21:27.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[02:21:27.950 --> 02:21:28.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:21:30.450 --> 02:21:30.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[02:21:31.050 --> 02:21:31.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:21:31.930 --> 02:21:35.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, uh, the brothers that were talking about the flag burning.
[02:21:35.690 --> 02:21:36.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have something here.
[02:21:36.850 --> 02:21:38.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: It'll take a moment just to read it.
[02:21:38.470 --> 02:21:40.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was, who was Medley Butler?
[02:21:41.410 --> 02:21:42.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever heard of this?
[02:21:42.270 --> 02:21:43.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, well, make it quick, okay?
[02:21:43.950 --> 02:21:44.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because we've got a lot of calls to go to.
[02:21:45.150 --> 02:21:55.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Generals in America, as described by General Douglas MacArthur, he was small, he was round-shouldered, he barely weighed 140 pounds dripping wet, and even when he was dry, his uniform seemed to hang off him like an oversized bathing suit.
[02:21:55.230 --> 02:21:56.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: He never fought in one of our major wars.
[02:21:57.110 --> 02:22:01.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yet this unlike model for a recruiting post who was once described by no less a martial figure.
[02:22:01.970 --> 02:22:10.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: The General MacArthur of the armies, as one of the great generals in American history, the warrior was Smedley Butler, a legendary, almost a typical Marine.
[02:22:10.610 --> 02:22:13.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: He fought in his country's battles from China to the Caribbean, winning two Medal of Honours.
[02:22:14.190 --> 02:22:17.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: He would have won a third, but regulations did not permit it at the time.
[02:22:17.270 --> 02:22:26.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: In an age when Americans regarded fighting with almost a total approval, Butler was a reckless battler, charging forward like Shakespeare's Corlanus, without ever looking to see if his men were following.
[02:22:26.430 --> 02:22:29.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: In Butler's case, it was always there, because they loved him.
[02:22:29.410 --> 02:22:38.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Higher-ups, by contrast, tended not to, for he was a clan tanker, unorthodox, and hated military punctuelo, and a prissy civilian regulation.
[02:22:39.070 --> 02:22:39.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: He hated these things.
[02:22:40.170 --> 02:22:49.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Smedley Butler, in short, was the perfect real-life model of a fighting leatherneck, suitable for framing, say, in an earlier John Wayne movie about a time of innocence, more innocence than today.
[02:22:50.230 --> 02:22:51.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, what does he say?
[02:22:51.630 --> 02:23:03.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: As described by himself in his article for Common Sense, the magazine of the time, in November of 1935, I spent 33 years and four months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps.
[02:23:03.790 --> 02:23:07.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: I served in all the commissioned ranks, from second lieutenant to a major general.
[02:23:07.530 --> 02:23:12.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for big business, for Wall Street, for the bankers.
[02:23:12.570 --> 02:23:15.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.
[02:23:15.490 --> 02:23:20.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thus, I helped make Mexico, and especially Tampico, safe for American interests in 1914.
[02:23:20.010 --> 02:23:25.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues.
[02:23:25.250 --> 02:23:29.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I helped in raping half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street.
[02:23:29.750 --> 02:23:36.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking houses of the Brown Brothers in 1909 and 1912.
[02:23:36.110 --> 02:23:41.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: I fought for the right of the Dominican Republic in America for the sugar interest in 1916.
[02:23:41.630 --> 02:23:45.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: I helped make Honduras right for American fruit companies in 1903.
[02:23:45.310 --> 02:23:48.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, sir, sir, sir, okay, I get the gist of this.
[02:23:48.910 --> 02:23:51.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Can you, in your own words, in very short...
[02:23:51.850 --> 02:23:59.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: ...rap the flag around themselves most of the time to commit the worst kinds of crime, whether they are German flags, American flags, or any other kind.
[02:23:59.350 --> 02:24:01.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was all done in the name of a flag, in other words.
[02:24:01.270 --> 02:24:01.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Pardon me?
[02:24:01.750 --> 02:24:03.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was done in the name of a flag.
[02:24:03.270 --> 02:24:08.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's the greatest symbol of a country who uses nationalism as a criminal movement.
[02:24:08.610 --> 02:24:10.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: They bring it together.
[02:24:10.630 --> 02:24:15.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the people call lease behind something that has been symbolically said to them from the time of their birth to then.
[02:24:15.870 --> 02:24:19.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: So you see a very real danger in a flag, in other words.
[02:24:19.590 --> 02:24:23.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: I see a danger in anything that people adhere to without thought.
[02:24:24.110 --> 02:24:25.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: Very good point.
[02:24:25.170 --> 02:24:40.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thinking is the main factor that people need to protect themselves from these democratic, you know, kind of attitudes that people put out there, whether you're talking about that congressman back there, or one of these here Ku Klux Klan-ers nowadays, or black nationalists,
[02:24:40.310 --> 02:24:40.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: or anyone else.
[02:24:41.130 --> 02:24:46.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: People must be able to think, to function properly for their own betterment and society's betterment.
[02:24:46.350 --> 02:24:47.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think you've hit the nail on the head.
[02:24:47.950 --> 02:24:49.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what it's all about.
[02:24:49.190 --> 02:24:51.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what democracy in action is about, thinking first.
[02:24:51.670 --> 02:24:54.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't think we're encouraged to think very much at all these days.
[02:24:54.950 --> 02:24:55.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's...
[02:24:55.370 --> 02:24:56.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's why you're able to think, though.
[02:24:56.970 --> 02:24:58.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thinking feeds thinking.
[02:24:58.530 --> 02:25:04.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the moment you stullify that, or you cripple it, the thinking becomes distorted because anyone can misuse it.
[02:25:04.430 --> 02:25:13.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if you go back and look at any of these pictures of Hitler and his flags and his banners and all of this kind of pulling people together, how did Italy get people together out of these things?
[02:25:13.890 --> 02:25:17.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a symbol of people adhering to a common cause.
[02:25:17.810 --> 02:25:19.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: And this is what they've been fed from their mother's milk.
[02:25:20.830 --> 02:25:21.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Follow the flag.
[02:25:21.750 --> 02:25:37.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, right now, if you want to get people upset, you just start desecrating a few of the crosses and stars of Islam and Jewish star of David's, any symbol is used to bring a people together for a purpose.
[02:25:37.230 --> 02:25:41.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And most of the time, people misuse the purpose for their own selfish needs.
[02:25:41.310 --> 02:25:41.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:25:42.170 --> 02:25:44.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, thanks very much for calling, sir, and for bringing up those points.
[02:25:45.010 --> 02:25:45.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:25:46.170 --> 02:25:46.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello.
[02:25:46.750 --> 02:25:47.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:25:47.990 --> 02:25:49.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I'm a flag burner.
[02:25:50.270 --> 02:25:53.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: But not all flag burners can be put into one category.
[02:25:53.770 --> 02:25:59.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm from a generation that learned that the only proper way to dispose of a flag was to burn it.
[02:26:00.610 --> 02:26:02.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, this might be interesting.
[02:26:02.650 --> 02:26:06.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: I am a summer resident at a beach community.
[02:26:06.910 --> 02:26:11.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'd say that about three-fourths of my neighbors fly the flag every day.
[02:26:12.310 --> 02:26:14.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we did, too, when my children were small.
[02:26:15.350 --> 02:26:22.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, because of the wind and the salt air and the telegraph poles and things like that, the flags are pretty shredded by the end of the year.
[02:26:23.310 --> 02:26:26.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we save them for the next July 4th bonfire.
[02:26:27.470 --> 02:26:32.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: And these old flags are put into the bonfire that we have on the beach.
[02:26:32.910 --> 02:26:34.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'll bet you're not going to do that next year.
[02:26:34.790 --> 02:26:36.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, we did it this July 4th.
[02:26:36.630 --> 02:26:36.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[02:26:36.930 --> 02:26:38.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are you going to do it next July 4th?
[02:26:38.490 --> 02:26:44.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I'm sure we will, because it's all done in a reverent attitude.
[02:26:44.550 --> 02:26:47.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it's only doing what we were taught to do.
[02:26:48.050 --> 02:26:48.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[02:26:48.250 --> 02:26:50.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: But do you feel uneasy now, doing that?
[02:26:50.730 --> 02:26:52.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, there was no uneasiness at all.
[02:26:52.870 --> 02:27:00.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because this is a tradition, and it's just a sanctified way of disposing of a flag.
[02:27:01.410 --> 02:27:12.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: Which really brings up the idiocy of the law, because what anybody would have to do would approach us and say, what are you thinking of as you were doing this?
[02:27:12.310 --> 02:27:15.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: And then we bring up this horrible specter of thought police.
[02:27:16.470 --> 02:27:24.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because on one hand, a large group of the population was taught that the only proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it.
[02:27:24.850 --> 02:27:26.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Which brings up something else.
[02:27:26.970 --> 02:27:33.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think we all remember the Republican Convention, and everybody had a little flag.
[02:27:33.570 --> 02:27:37.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, they were adoring Bush there, and they were waving little flags.
[02:27:37.570 --> 02:27:39.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we've seen these demonstrations before.
[02:27:39.950 --> 02:27:47.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I wonder if those people were advised by, say, Bush, on how to properly dispose of those flags.
[02:27:47.670 --> 02:27:51.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's a real good point, because we see flags every day.
[02:27:51.670 --> 02:27:54.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Garbage, with the sandwiches and the paper plates or something.
[02:27:55.010 --> 02:27:58.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think somebody should ask him how he disposes of it.
[02:27:58.470 --> 02:28:03.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: As long as they're making such an issue of it, I don't see any reason why not to ask those questions.
[02:28:03.170 --> 02:28:05.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, you see flags on McDonald's bags.
[02:28:05.990 --> 02:28:07.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: You see them, you know, everywhere in the stores.
[02:28:08.330 --> 02:28:09.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's a lot of flags to get rid of.
[02:28:09.830 --> 02:28:11.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't know if you saw Doonesbury a few weeks ago.
[02:28:11.690 --> 02:28:14.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: He printed a flag, you know, in the comic strip.
[02:28:15.090 --> 02:28:15.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[02:28:15.790 --> 02:28:18.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, it posed a very real question.
[02:28:18.350 --> 02:28:19.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: How do you get rid of this?
[02:28:19.490 --> 02:28:20.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: You can't.
[02:28:20.150 --> 02:28:20.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's no way to.
[02:28:20.870 --> 02:28:23.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Under this law, it's illegal to throw it out or to desecrate it in any way.
[02:28:25.230 --> 02:28:29.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: So it raises a lot of fun points to pursue, and I'm all for pursuing those.
[02:28:29.530 --> 02:28:31.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: I just might add one little poignant thing.
[02:28:31.350 --> 02:28:44.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, I had a visitor from north of Ireland, a niece of mine, and as we were at this bonfire and the plaque was burning and everything, somebody set off a repeating firecracker, you know, about 25 yards away or something like that.
[02:28:45.390 --> 02:28:48.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: And she fell down on the ground because she says, oh, it's a shooting.
[02:28:48.890 --> 02:28:52.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: See, she has been raised, you know, to the end of guns.
[02:28:53.450 --> 02:28:56.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I thought it was a very poignant lesson for my children.
[02:28:57.070 --> 02:29:04.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: I said, this flag was born under British guns, and this girl here is still under the threat.
[02:29:05.050 --> 02:29:07.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: She has been raised here in British guns.
[02:29:07.430 --> 02:29:08.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: She just...
[02:29:08.150 --> 02:29:10.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: They haven't had their independence day yet.
[02:29:10.650 --> 02:29:12.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I thought...
[02:29:12.070 --> 02:29:12.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And a pot...
[02:29:12.650 --> 02:29:16.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: That, you know, I turned it into a positive lesson for them.
[02:29:16.930 --> 02:29:17.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's good.
[02:29:17.550 --> 02:29:19.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think we can get a positive lesson here, too.
[02:29:19.810 --> 02:29:20.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks very much for calling.
[02:29:21.310 --> 02:29:21.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:29:23.410 --> 02:29:24.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is anyone there?
[02:29:25.570 --> 02:29:27.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, I guess they fell asleep at the phone.
[02:29:27.690 --> 02:29:28.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:29:28.310 --> 02:29:30.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hi, it's the first time I've heard your program.
[02:29:30.990 --> 02:29:35.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I'm against flag burning for three reasons.
[02:29:37.270 --> 02:29:39.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's an indirect statement.
[02:29:39.590 --> 02:29:41.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a hypocritical statement.
[02:29:41.790 --> 02:29:44.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's an antagonistic statement.
[02:29:45.210 --> 02:29:48.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's indirect because I think...
[02:29:48.450 --> 02:29:55.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe myself in a lot of people's minds that the flag stands for so much more than the Vietnam War.
[02:29:55.410 --> 02:29:58.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not to belittle the war, but, um...
[02:29:59.410 --> 02:30:02.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, it stands for getting rid of that evil Hitler.
[02:30:02.570 --> 02:30:07.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: It stands for getting rid of slavery, or at least getting rid of the worst part of slavery.
[02:30:07.750 --> 02:30:12.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, of course, for one time, it stood for slavery, too, though, you see.
[02:30:12.290 --> 02:30:13.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, yeah, that's true.
[02:30:13.890 --> 02:30:14.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I...
[02:30:14.550 --> 02:30:15.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see your point.
[02:30:15.270 --> 02:30:20.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: It stands for what we get out of it in the end, is what you're saying, right?
[02:30:20.850 --> 02:30:21.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:30:21.790 --> 02:30:26.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I think, see, like, I think everybody has, like, a grandfather who maybe...
[02:30:26.670 --> 02:30:35.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or everybody knows somebody who maybe pioneered the West, or they have a grandfather that helped build a bridge, and he died building the bridge.
[02:30:35.830 --> 02:30:38.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: And people relate the flag to those things, too.
[02:30:38.570 --> 02:30:39.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's like...
[02:30:39.410 --> 02:30:40.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: And just the whole idea of freedom.
[02:30:41.230 --> 02:30:42.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's like, if I...
[02:30:42.650 --> 02:30:44.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've never seen anybody burn a flag.
[02:30:44.530 --> 02:30:50.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: But my reaction would be, I'm not going to say, oh, that guy's burning the flag because he doesn't believe in what we're doing in El Salvador.
[02:30:50.750 --> 02:30:55.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or that guy's burning the flag because he doesn't like what happened in Vietnam.
[02:30:55.270 --> 02:30:56.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm going to think...
[02:30:56.310 --> 02:30:59.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: My reaction is going to be, okay, you son of a gun.
[02:30:59.230 --> 02:31:02.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't like this country and everything this country stands for, so why are you here?
[02:31:03.930 --> 02:31:07.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I mean, that's a question that's asked quite often.
[02:31:07.290 --> 02:31:09.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, again, is it really relevant?
[02:31:10.350 --> 02:31:11.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I mean, yeah, he's here.
[02:31:11.890 --> 02:31:12.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: He's burning the flag.
[02:31:12.890 --> 02:31:14.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: He's showing disrespect for the country.
[02:31:14.970 --> 02:31:17.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: But doesn't he have the right to do that?
[02:31:17.230 --> 02:31:21.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if we question his right to be here, aren't we being kind of hypocritical?
[02:31:21.690 --> 02:31:24.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'm afraid that you're going to have to answer that in about 10 seconds.
[02:31:25.430 --> 02:31:32.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, I think they're being hypocritical because I don't like a lot of destruction that's going on in this country either.
[02:31:33.030 --> 02:31:36.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the actual burning of the flag is a destructive thing to do.
[02:31:36.530 --> 02:31:37.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's a very...
[02:31:37.770 --> 02:31:39.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're just not making a point.
[02:31:39.390 --> 02:31:40.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Like someone said before, they're just not making...
[02:31:40.870 --> 02:31:41.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're missing the mark.
[02:31:42.210 --> 02:31:44.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: One final question, and then we have to go.
[02:31:44.530 --> 02:31:45.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think the law is justified?
[02:31:46.810 --> 02:31:50.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, I don't, because I think it would take up too much time in court that we need for other things.
[02:31:50.870 --> 02:31:51.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:31:51.390 --> 02:31:52.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks very much for calling.
[02:31:52.330 --> 02:31:52.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye.
[02:31:52.830 --> 02:31:53.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: And good night.
[02:31:53.450 --> 02:31:55.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm afraid we're going to have to make that our last call.
[02:32:00.550 --> 02:32:02.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's time for us to go.
[02:32:02.490 --> 02:32:03.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: My name's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:32:03.790 --> 02:32:05.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: I've been filling in for Tom Whisker.
[02:32:05.450 --> 02:32:08.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'll be back next week filling in for him for the last time.
[02:32:09.570 --> 02:32:11.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we'll talk about something completely different.
[02:32:11.650 --> 02:32:12.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks to everybody who called in.
[02:32:13.850 --> 02:32:16.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: And keep thinking, keep talking about this.
[02:32:17.190 --> 02:32:21.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'd like to go out with a piece by a band called The Specials.
[02:32:21.290 --> 02:32:24.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: That sort of sums up my whole view on this and on everything else.
[02:32:24.810 --> 02:32:28.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Whatever you think in the end, whatever you do, it's all up to you.
[02:32:28.370 --> 02:32:28.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good night.