Off The Hook - 1989-12-13

[12:44.760 --> 12:51.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that music is from none other than Shelly Thunder here on WBAI.
[12:51.340 --> 12:57.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: The greatest advisor, and if you were listening to the lyrics, you would find all kinds of topical things in there.
[12:57.420 --> 13:01.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: AIDS, crack, and all kinds of other things like that.
[13:02.340 --> 13:04.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Shelly Thunder, joy to listen to her.
[13:04.580 --> 13:07.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: I really enjoy hearing her selections.
[13:07.860 --> 13:13.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's always easy to tell, too, it's Shelly Thunder, because she usually mentions her name every third lyric herself.
[13:13.480 --> 13:15.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: So you always know when it's Shelly Thunder.
[13:15.620 --> 13:22.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we heard from Robert Wyatt with the Swappo Singers, the Winds of Change.
[13:22.380 --> 13:25.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Actually, the Wind of Change, if you want to be technical about it.
[13:25.360 --> 13:43.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's produced and arranged by Jerry Dammers, formerly of the Specials, who says on the record, a 12-inch record, Namibian and South African collaborators with apartheid should not be granted asylum in Britain or any other country when their racist regime is eventually overthrown.
[13:46.140 --> 13:58.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: And Robert Wyatt also quoted on that record, saying, Personally, I shall not be convinced that freedom has come to Namibia until Namibian artists themselves have a secure platform from which to speak directly to the world.
[13:58.700 --> 14:12.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Their own record companies, publishing houses, film and TV industry, independent from the whims and fashions of the neo-colonialist power communication centers that currently dominate and shape world thought.
[14:13.400 --> 14:18.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, yes, Namibia is one other song on this 12-inch.
[14:18.240 --> 14:19.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the flip side of this record.
[14:19.980 --> 14:27.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we heard the Wind of Change, something which, of course, is going on at all times, not just in the 1980s and 1990s.
[14:27.720 --> 14:29.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: The winds of change are always with us.
[14:30.100 --> 14:31.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's just up to us to see them.
[14:31.600 --> 14:35.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's up to us to find out where they are and to take advantage of them.
[14:35.580 --> 14:38.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: The winds of change are right under our very noses sometimes.
[14:39.120 --> 14:43.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: The winds of change were right here in Manhattan this past Sunday at St. Patrick's Cathedral.
[14:44.160 --> 14:44.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: You hear about that?
[14:44.900 --> 14:45.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's amazing.
[14:45.980 --> 14:50.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hundreds, hundreds of people disrupting a mass in St. Patrick's Cathedral.
[14:50.500 --> 14:51.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, I thought it was incredible.
[14:52.240 --> 15:02.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, of course, there's those people that say, it's offensive, you're, you know, treading in the house of God and doing all these awful things and not showing any respect.
[15:03.040 --> 15:10.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, yeah, you could say that, you know, you could say that and most definitely be supported by the fact that these people are not showing respect.
[15:10.480 --> 15:19.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're walking into a cathedral, making a lot of noise, chaining themselves to the pews, interrupting the cardinal.
[15:19.960 --> 15:23.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, I don't think that's showing very much respect at all.
[15:24.040 --> 15:46.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I do believe that's the whole point of the thing, is not to show respect, to show anger, to show, you know, how horrible things have become, where people actually feel compelled to go into St. Patrick's Cathedral and interrupt Sunday Mass with talk about things like AIDS and abortion rights and that kind of thing.
[15:46.660 --> 15:53.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: And let's look at the, what happened, what actually happened on that day, according to Newsday.
[15:54.680 --> 16:07.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Dozens of AIDS and abortion rights activists disrupted high mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral on Sunday when they threw condoms in the air, lay in the aisles and chained themselves to pews, forcing Cardinal John J.
[16:07.440 --> 16:11.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: O'Connor to abandon his sermon and lead the parishioners in prayer instead.
[16:12.780 --> 16:30.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And outside, about 4,500 demonstrators organized by Women's Health Action Mobilization, otherwise known as WHAM, an abortion rights group and the AIDS activist group ACT UP chanted and waved placards protesting the Catholic Church's stands against homosexuality,
[16:30.300 --> 16:35.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: against condoms, as a way to prevent the spread of the disease and against abortion.
[16:35.620 --> 16:39.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: 43 people were arrested inside the church at 5th Avenue and 50th Street.
[16:40.220 --> 16:42.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: Many carried out on orange stretchers.
[16:42.900 --> 16:45.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: I wonder why they had to tell you what color the stretchers were.
[16:45.760 --> 16:47.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: I also wonder why they had to tell you where the church was.
[16:47.720 --> 16:48.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Everybody knows where St. Patrick's is.
[16:49.740 --> 16:53.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And also another 68 were arrested outside, according to police.
[16:53.180 --> 16:57.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: They were charged with criminal trespass, disorderly conduct, and resisting arrest.
[16:58.280 --> 17:00.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: Three officers suffered minor injuries.
[17:00.860 --> 17:03.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Protest leaders said several demonstrators also were slightly injured.
[17:03.940 --> 17:15.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this was the largest protest since 1987, when activists began picketing after O'Connor barred a gay Catholic group called Dignity from using church facilities.
[17:17.580 --> 17:26.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I can understand how people are upset by this, or upset by the fact that people chose to have a demonstration inside a church.
[17:26.300 --> 17:30.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: But damn it, I think it's high time that this be brought to the forefront.
[17:30.940 --> 17:36.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, people are literally dying because of ignorance, because of...
[17:37.020 --> 17:41.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: Religious convictions are one thing, but, you know, I don't know.
[17:41.920 --> 17:46.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: It just turns into a point where you have to say enough already.
[17:46.560 --> 17:49.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, obviously, we've got an epidemic here.
[17:49.560 --> 17:59.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: And to say, you know, blithely that, well, we're going to pretend condoms don't exist because, you know, to do otherwise would be to, you know, slap God in the face or garbage like that.
[18:00.080 --> 18:02.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, give us a break, please.
[18:03.500 --> 18:18.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the abortion rights people, also for the same reason, people are dying, literally, from back-alley abortions and things like that in places where it's almost impossible to get abortions.
[18:19.960 --> 18:27.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's time that we go into the 20th century gracefully, but let's get there already.
[18:28.520 --> 18:32.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, the only way to get attention sometimes is to be obnoxious.
[18:33.340 --> 18:38.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, in this particular case, I don't believe there was any violence, and I think that's the line.
[18:39.160 --> 18:41.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the line you can't cross.
[18:41.640 --> 18:46.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's no reason to be violent in something like this, but you've got to be loud.
[18:46.140 --> 18:47.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: You've got to be obnoxious sometimes.
[18:47.520 --> 18:49.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's just the only way to get attention.
[18:49.480 --> 18:54.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, if there had been just a demonstration, a walk down Fifth Avenue, do you think it would have made page three of Newsday?
[18:54.600 --> 18:55.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think so.
[18:56.680 --> 18:57.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Page one of the times?
[18:57.980 --> 18:58.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: No way.
[18:58.900 --> 18:59.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: No way.
[18:59.780 --> 19:00.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: You've got to be obnoxious.
[19:00.920 --> 19:07.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, hopefully, more people will realize that and not just condemn these groups for doing this.
[19:08.520 --> 19:09.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know.
[19:09.200 --> 19:13.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Time will tell, but it's also, you know, it's a question of consistency.
[19:13.100 --> 19:31.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: If these groups, if the people who believe that it's time to speak out continue to speak out, then there will be a dialogue at least, and, you know, some progress will be made, and maybe there'll be an adequate AIDS education program in this city, and,
[19:31.900 --> 19:40.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: you know, continued support for abortion rights or increased support for abortion rights.
[19:40.180 --> 20:04.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Another thing that happened this week, or actually late last week, out on Long Island, you hear about the guy that, he was a doctor, and he and his wife had been convicted of soliciting students at an Oregon university to have sex with his wife, who was,
[20:05.060 --> 20:06.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: I believe, 44 years old.
[20:06.720 --> 20:07.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Not that that really matters.
[20:09.260 --> 20:23.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: In the name of some kind of an experiment, they would hand out these pieces of paper and say, we're conducting research on the sexual habits of the mature female, and participants will be paid $10 per orgasm, or something like that.
[20:24.560 --> 20:29.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Please phone this number and become a part of this experiment.
[20:30.260 --> 20:38.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, this was discovered, and various people said, hey, you know, this isn't real research here.
[20:38.200 --> 20:39.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: This isn't a bona fide project.
[20:40.200 --> 20:50.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this big commotion was raised in the New York metropolitan area, because that's where this guy was a prominent doctor out in Long Island.
[20:51.480 --> 21:09.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it was, you know, at the time, when I first heard about the story, I said, well, that's interesting, this guy and his wife, you know, maybe they're doing research, but maybe they're also just getting their jollies by, you know, filming people having sex with his wife.
[21:10.560 --> 21:18.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then there was all this talk about, well, you know, he can go to jail for a long time for this, and well, the people who actually participated in the experiment weren't prosecuted.
[21:19.160 --> 21:20.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why would they be prosecuted?
[21:20.740 --> 21:23.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why would you prosecute somebody for agreeing to have sex with somebody else?
[21:24.340 --> 21:26.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: It just seems so silly, you know?
[21:27.000 --> 21:36.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: If that's what they choose to do, I don't recall any evidence of violence, any evidence of any kind of coercion.
[21:37.000 --> 21:41.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: Just, you know, straightforward, handing out pamphlets, hey, you want to have sex with this person for an experiment?
[21:41.880 --> 21:44.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: Come by, we'll pay you $10 per orgasm.
[21:44.340 --> 21:45.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Simple as that.
[21:46.820 --> 21:49.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, apparently it's not as simple as that.
[21:50.260 --> 21:52.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've got all kinds of taboos on things.
[21:52.600 --> 21:59.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: And of course, we live in a perfect society where nobody ever has deviant thoughts or desires of any kind.
[21:59.200 --> 22:04.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: So anybody that actually exhibits those kind of things must be hung up on a cross somewhere.
[22:05.520 --> 22:15.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, apparently, all this attention was too much for the doctor, Dr. Rodney Wood.
[22:15.560 --> 22:17.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: He killed himself last week.
[22:17.100 --> 22:20.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: He shot himself Thursday in an apparent suicide.
[22:20.520 --> 22:28.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it was only a couple of weeks after both he and his wife pleaded guilty in Oregon to prostitution charges.
[22:29.680 --> 22:34.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: The Southampton Hospital is where he worked, I believe, and they suspended him.
[22:34.940 --> 22:46.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, in the face of all of this publicity, I mean, nobody is going to go to this doctor without knowing what he was involved in.
[22:47.480 --> 22:50.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: So what was the possible reason for suspending him?
[22:50.860 --> 23:07.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: I can't understand how that would have affected his medical career, I mean, his medical abilities, being involved in some... You know, you're saying that if you're sexually deviant in any way or do something that's not exactly correct in any way, then you can't be a doctor, you know?
[23:08.580 --> 23:11.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I just think that's such insanity, you know?
[23:11.380 --> 23:12.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're all human beings.
[23:13.240 --> 23:14.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Ask Gary Hart, you know?
[23:14.860 --> 23:21.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're all capable of saying the wrong thing, feeling the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing.
[23:21.800 --> 23:29.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: And maybe, if we're intelligent enough, realizing that there aren't that many wrong things to do when you're a human, as long as you don't hurt other people.
[23:29.560 --> 23:31.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's my definition of the wrong thing.
[23:32.100 --> 23:44.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: And everything else, as long as, you know, as long as you're not invading someone else's privacy, not violating somebody else's rights, more power to you.
[23:45.000 --> 23:48.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Unfortunately, in this case, it's too late.
[23:49.660 --> 23:51.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, those are my thoughts on that matter.
[23:52.040 --> 23:56.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter too, except for one thing.
[23:56.540 --> 24:00.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: We do have a special guest tonight, and we are going to be talking about something completely different.
[24:01.140 --> 24:03.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, I just wanted to throw those things out at you.
[24:03.960 --> 24:07.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: But maybe we can talk about it later on, or in a future program.
[24:07.520 --> 24:16.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: By the way, this is Emmanuel Goldstein, filling in for Tom Whisker tonight on the military hardware, or actually weaponry is the official name of the program.
[24:17.120 --> 24:19.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: I've been filling in for the last two weeks.
[24:19.220 --> 24:21.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is the third week and final week.
[24:21.920 --> 24:26.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: And Tom will be back from the Crafts Fair next week at this time.
[24:26.760 --> 24:28.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: And when I will be back, I'm not sure.
[24:28.840 --> 24:32.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't have a regular slot here at WBAI yet.
[24:32.360 --> 24:33.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: We'll see.
[24:33.240 --> 24:40.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's rumors of all kinds of changes in the offing here at WBAI, but we'll see what comes of all that.
[24:40.760 --> 24:54.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: But we will be taking your phone calls in a little bit because we'll be talking to Craig Demmer, who is a South African, a South African who is living here in New York.
[24:55.440 --> 25:02.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the United States is threatening to send him back to South Africa because he's evaded the draft.
[25:04.100 --> 25:06.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: And he's facing quite a dilemma right now.
[25:06.900 --> 25:09.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to be speaking with him on the phone in just a couple of minutes.
[25:10.240 --> 25:12.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we'll be taking your phone calls.
[25:12.220 --> 25:17.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: You can speak directly to him at 212-279-3400.
[25:17.580 --> 25:19.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is WBAI in New York.
[25:20.140 --> 25:23.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we're here until 3.30.
[25:24.080 --> 25:25.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: And your calls are welcome.
[26:04.790 --> 26:09.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: The man is running from his bus who holds a gun that fires cuss.
[26:09.710 --> 26:13.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: And people die from being old or left alone because they're cold.
[26:14.190 --> 26:16.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: And bombs are dropped on fighting cats.
[26:16.310 --> 26:18.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: And children's dreams are run with rats.
[26:18.330 --> 26:23.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you can play, you disappear just like the lesbians and queers.
[26:30.830 --> 26:33.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: No one comes love without the grace.
[26:33.510 --> 26:35.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: And some don't see the distant face.
[26:35.610 --> 26:39.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you get beaten up by Blacks whose only words still got the sass.
[26:40.050 --> 26:43.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: And when your soul tells you to hide, you're very right to die as deny.
[26:44.230 --> 26:48.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: And in the battle on the streets, you fight computers and receipts.
[26:48.330 --> 26:52.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: And when a man's trying to change, it only causes further pay.
[26:52.810 --> 26:57.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: You realize, and all along, something in a story wrong.
[27:37.650 --> 27:40.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we've only begun to dance here at WBAI.
[27:41.070 --> 27:44.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's music from The Hoov off the Quadrophenia record.
[27:45.150 --> 27:50.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we have on the line with us Craig Demmer, who is a White South African.
[27:50.790 --> 28:00.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: And according to the New York Times, he's about to spend his fourth winter in New York, far from friends, family, and the warm, sparkling beaches of his native Durban.
[28:01.890 --> 28:03.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: Did I pronounce that correctly, Craig?
[28:03.490 --> 28:04.270]  [CRAIGDEMER: Yes, that's correct.
[28:04.510 --> 28:04.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[28:05.910 --> 28:12.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: And you have a very, well, I guess it's kind of a unique situation for most people in New York.
[28:12.870 --> 28:20.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're a White South African who has refused to enlist in the army in South Africa.
[28:20.870 --> 28:24.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: And now you're facing deportation by the United States.
[28:24.130 --> 28:24.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that correct?
[28:24.790 --> 28:25.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes, that's correct.
[28:26.110 --> 28:28.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In 1985, I arrived in America.
[28:28.790 --> 28:38.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I applied for political asylum in America because I refused to serve in the South African military, which has a major role in the enforcement of apartheid.
[28:39.150 --> 28:44.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And apartheid is, I think, as most people are aware of what apartheid is in South Africa.
[28:44.010 --> 28:48.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's the systematic, you know, oppression of people by virtue of their race.
[28:49.950 --> 28:55.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's a system that's been condemned by all countries all over the world, including the United Nations.
[28:55.750 --> 28:59.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So I refused to have any part, you know, in this whole system.
[29:00.010 --> 29:03.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it was totally against all my moral and political beliefs.
[29:03.130 --> 29:05.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I came over here and I applied for asylum.
[29:05.850 --> 29:09.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I waited three years for a decision from the State Department.
[29:09.210 --> 29:18.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they sent me a letter in September this year saying they had turned me down for asylum and gave absolutely no reason whatsoever after a three-year wait.
[29:19.350 --> 29:22.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I'm now awaiting deportation hearings.
[29:22.810 --> 29:23.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, let me ask you this.
[29:24.070 --> 29:29.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, is it possible, is it not possible for a South African to simply move to the United States?
[29:31.490 --> 29:32.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you mean?
[29:32.890 --> 29:37.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Can't you simply, you know, say, I'm not living in South Africa anymore.
[29:37.710 --> 29:38.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: I want to move to the United States.
[29:39.070 --> 29:39.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not that easy?
[29:39.930 --> 29:40.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, no.
[29:41.030 --> 29:44.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think the United States is one of the most difficult countries in the world to get.
[29:44.730 --> 29:50.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And there are very few avenues, I think, open to outsiders to enter America.
[29:50.030 --> 29:54.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You have to have a relative living in the United States or you have to be married to an American citizen.
[29:55.030 --> 30:02.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Or otherwise possess a skill that's in demand and you can get work authorization by possessing a certain skill.
[30:03.550 --> 30:10.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I came over for the reason to apply for asylum to take a stand against apartheid in South Africa.
[30:11.830 --> 30:27.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And that was the avenue open to me and one I wanted to pursue because I felt that, you know, the rest of the world needed to know what is exactly going on in South Africa and is still going on in South Africa despite all this current publicity from the South African government that they're making all these wonderful changes,
[30:27.870 --> 30:30.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: which are very cosmetic and very minor.
[30:31.390 --> 30:39.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, yeah, I get regular propaganda tapes from the South African government, in fact, and I've played them on this station a few times.
[30:39.390 --> 30:40.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're rather interesting to listen to.
[30:40.510 --> 30:43.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: For one thing, they refer to South Africa as Southern Africa.
[30:43.690 --> 30:44.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that something?
[30:44.850 --> 30:46.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's really the Republic of South Africa.
[30:46.930 --> 30:51.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Southern Africa refers to all the countries in South Africa, which are Zimbabwe, Namibia, Angola.
[30:53.310 --> 30:53.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Botswana.
[30:54.050 --> 30:56.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think the correct term would probably be South Africa.
[30:56.930 --> 31:00.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, when they mention Southern Africa, they're always referring to South Africa.
[31:00.890 --> 31:02.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm just wondering why the distinction.
[31:02.890 --> 31:05.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: But that's not really relevant here.
[31:06.410 --> 31:09.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: First of all, you're from a place called Durban.
[31:09.450 --> 31:12.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that close to... where is that close to?
[31:12.490 --> 31:13.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a coastal area.
[31:13.910 --> 31:14.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's on the Indian Ocean.
[31:14.930 --> 31:17.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a beautiful place near Mauritius.
[31:18.690 --> 31:20.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's on the East Coast.
[31:21.510 --> 31:24.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's the second largest city in South Africa as well.
[31:25.370 --> 31:26.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's very ethnic.
[31:26.670 --> 31:32.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's very much like New York, made up of various Indian population, Africans, Whites.
[31:32.290 --> 31:34.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So it's a very diverse population.
[31:34.730 --> 31:43.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Could you possibly describe to us, you say it's like New York, but obviously it's not like New York in very blatant ways.
[31:43.470 --> 31:52.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a rather ironic situation because we have all the different races, you know, living together, but by law in separate areas.
[31:52.010 --> 32:00.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They attend separate schools, they live in different residential areas, they attend different hospitals, they attend different churches, they ride different buses.
[32:01.730 --> 32:06.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So it's all segregated according to the law in South Africa, which is totally ridiculous.
[32:07.590 --> 32:11.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, all people are the same wherever they are, all over the world.
[32:11.310 --> 32:18.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But in South Africa, the government is such that they view people other than Whites as being inferior.
[32:19.250 --> 32:30.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And for that reason, that's why I came over to America to make a stand to oppose apartheid and refuse to have any part in the maintenance of apartheid.
[32:31.410 --> 32:46.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm just trying to get more of a sense of where you came from because, you know, you hear all these talks about apartheid, but so rarely do you actually, you know, hear firsthand what it's like in day-to-day life.
[32:46.730 --> 32:51.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: The little things, like you say Blacks and Indians have to take different buses.
[32:51.230 --> 32:54.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, you stand on the corner and what, do you see a bus coming down?
[32:54.950 --> 32:56.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The buses are actually different.
[32:56.210 --> 32:57.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have different colored buses.
[32:58.090 --> 32:58.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Different colors.
[32:58.770 --> 33:00.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have different fares.
[33:01.110 --> 33:04.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have different hospitals that Black people have to go to.
[33:04.770 --> 33:15.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And many people have died on the way to hospital because if they were Black, they would have to travel a different distance, a longer distance, to go to the Black hospital, never mind the fact that they just passed a White hospital on their way.
[33:16.290 --> 33:18.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's just a totally absurd system.
[33:19.650 --> 33:25.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, when I came over here, I just took so many things for granted, you know, that things were so segregated.
[33:25.770 --> 33:30.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And just to see that everything is so integrated here was just such a shock.
[33:30.330 --> 33:35.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, when you grow up in South Africa, you just accept the way things are.
[33:37.150 --> 33:40.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, that everything is just so segregated.
[33:40.670 --> 33:42.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you lived in South Africa all your life.
[33:42.430 --> 33:43.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: All my life.
[33:43.090 --> 33:43.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I was born there.
[33:43.910 --> 33:45.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm like a fourth generation South African.
[33:45.990 --> 33:47.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I've never known anything else.
[33:47.450 --> 33:48.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I've never traveled overseas.
[33:49.270 --> 33:54.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: When you were younger, when you were a kid, did you question things all the time?
[33:54.090 --> 33:57.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or did you perhaps just not think that much about it?
[33:57.950 --> 34:06.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Quite honestly, I didn't think much of it because growing up, you know, my parents are government supporters, unfortunately.
[34:07.510 --> 34:13.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Growing up in that environment, you sort of brainwashed, you know, it's taught that it's the right way.
[34:13.510 --> 34:14.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, this is the way it is.
[34:14.470 --> 34:15.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The Whites are in power.
[34:15.730 --> 34:17.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They are the dominant people.
[34:17.890 --> 34:19.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You just accept it.
[34:19.510 --> 34:20.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: How is that reinforced?
[34:20.990 --> 34:22.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's reinforced by the media.
[34:23.330 --> 34:26.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, it's reinforced at school, even.
[34:26.570 --> 34:43.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I remember in high school, every week on a Friday, you know, all the school kids would go to school in military uniforms and would go to the rifle range and practice shooting Black people, you know, at Target, with the aim that they'd be well prepared to go into the military after graduating from high school.
[34:44.950 --> 34:55.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's this whole system that's enforced, and you, since a child, you know, that the Whites are the dominant class and the Black people are the enemy, which is really absurd.
[34:55.830 --> 35:01.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a very frightening, a very, very horrible situation to grow up in, actually, when you come to think of it.
[35:02.470 --> 35:12.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: A system that just, you know, separates people so horribly, that makes everyone enemies, you know, when everyone's just basically the same.
[35:12.930 --> 35:16.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm just trying to get a sense, though, of, you know, the White community in South Africa.
[35:17.110 --> 35:21.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: What, I mean, are there many people like you that question things?
[35:22.170 --> 35:24.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I wish there were more, to be quite honest.
[35:24.770 --> 35:27.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's very difficult when you're brought up in an environment like that.
[35:27.690 --> 35:28.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, you just accept it.
[35:29.230 --> 35:30.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You've never known anything else.
[35:31.790 --> 35:43.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It takes quite a lot of guts, I think, to stand up for something that you believe in when you know that you're going to be, you know, ostracized or alienated for something.
[35:44.050 --> 35:49.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: When you were growing up, did you see any instances of that, of somebody standing up and saying, this is wrong?
[35:49.790 --> 35:50.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Not really.
[35:51.010 --> 35:56.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The first time I saw that happen was when I went to university after graduating from high school.
[35:56.790 --> 36:00.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I remained in Durban and went to university there and I began to train as a social worker.
[36:01.210 --> 36:08.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I was first exposed to people standing up for, you know, their rights and opposing the system.
[36:08.350 --> 36:10.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I went to various Black townships in South Africa.
[36:11.430 --> 36:14.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, the Whites live in different areas, the Blacks live in different areas.
[36:14.710 --> 36:19.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And the Blacks are allocated 13% of the land in South Africa.
[36:19.970 --> 36:24.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Now, they make up three quarters of the population, but they only live on 13% of the land.
[36:24.790 --> 36:26.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's the worst land available.
[36:27.390 --> 36:30.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I went and traveled on all the Black townships.
[36:30.190 --> 36:32.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We call them townships because they're like squatter camps.
[36:32.590 --> 36:35.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's no plumbing, there's no electricity, no roads, nothing.
[36:35.570 --> 36:36.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you as...
[36:36.690 --> 36:40.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I did social work and field work, you know, in these townships.
[36:40.550 --> 36:48.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, I saw, you know, White social workers advocating and encouraging the Black people to try and, you know, bring about change in their communities.
[36:48.870 --> 36:55.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I saw how the government reacted to these attempts by, you know, imprisoning them and banning them, putting them under house arrest.
[36:56.470 --> 36:58.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And this is still continuing today.
[36:58.390 --> 36:59.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Wait, who did they imprison and ban?
[37:00.170 --> 37:05.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, people working in the townships, White and Black, mainly social workers and community workers.
[37:05.850 --> 37:09.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: This was viewed as subversive, according to the government.
[37:09.590 --> 37:23.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: As soon as you enter a Black township or a Black area, and you try to bring about a community spirit and make, you know, try to encourage and facilitate people to advocate for their rights, to improve their facilities and, you know, housing, etc.
[37:23.870 --> 37:28.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's regarded as treacherous, you know, you're being a traitor.
[37:28.350 --> 37:29.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's subversive.
[37:29.990 --> 37:32.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And you can get imprisoned without trial.
[37:33.590 --> 37:41.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And in the state of emergency, which has been in South Africa since 1985, the police and the army regularly patrol these townships.
[37:42.250 --> 37:44.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They make arrests.
[37:44.370 --> 37:48.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can barge into your house at any time and search your house without any warrant.
[37:49.590 --> 37:51.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can fire tear gas.
[37:51.230 --> 38:01.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can occupy schools if they suspect that Black children are, you know, speaking their mind or doing anything that they refuse, subversive.
[38:01.630 --> 38:07.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, Craig, you said you traveled through Black townships, and you being a White person, what was that?
[38:07.110 --> 38:10.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: Did you feel any kind of hostility directed towards you?
[38:11.250 --> 38:12.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Now and again, I would.
[38:12.470 --> 38:17.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It would depend on the mood at that particular time if an incident had just happened.
[38:18.590 --> 38:29.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Sometimes we were warned that it would be very dangerous for a White person to go into a certain area that particular week because the car would be stoned just by virtue of us being White.
[38:30.870 --> 38:37.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Other times, you know, people would just be so, you know, desperate for, you know, for some person to help them or to advocate for them.
[38:37.950 --> 38:44.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, I'd be given so much support and I'd be received with, you know, open arms because I would be the last resort, you know.
[38:46.430 --> 38:52.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So it was a mixture of, you know, sometimes, you know, I wouldn't be given such a favorable reception because of my race.
[38:52.650 --> 38:54.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And sometimes it would be, you know, great.
[38:56.010 --> 38:56.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see.
[38:56.710 --> 39:01.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, at what point did you say to yourself that you wanted to leave the country?
[39:02.170 --> 39:13.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, I began my university studies in 1980 and all during this time I trained as a social worker and did three years working in the different townships, doing community work, etc.
[39:13.950 --> 39:18.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, my feelings just became more and more strong about my hatred for the system.
[39:18.490 --> 39:21.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I just felt it was so unjust, just so unfair.
[39:22.050 --> 39:25.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And here I was training to be a social worker to improve people's lives.
[39:25.790 --> 39:33.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I knew that, you know, military conscription exists in South Africa and all White males have to go and serve in the military.
[39:33.450 --> 39:36.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I just... I had this dilemma, you know.
[39:36.730 --> 39:43.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Very soon I would have to go into the military and enforce this whole system, which I thought was very unfair and really disgusting.
[39:44.970 --> 39:46.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Or otherwise make a stand.
[39:46.990 --> 39:49.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I didn't know what type of stand to make.
[39:49.710 --> 39:58.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I came over to America for a vacation and while I was here I received my call-up notice that I would very soon in a couple of months have to report for duty.
[39:59.550 --> 40:08.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So I was faced with the dilemma of going back to South Africa and serving in the military or refusing, going back and refusing, and being put into jail.
[40:09.190 --> 40:10.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: For how long?
[40:10.690 --> 40:11.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: For six years.
[40:11.790 --> 40:12.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Six years.
[40:12.710 --> 40:16.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, military service in South Africa, what specifically does that entail?
[40:17.050 --> 40:21.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: All White males from the age of 18 have to serve in the South African military.
[40:21.750 --> 40:26.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's been reduced now to one year because South Africa has withdrawn from Namibia.
[40:26.530 --> 40:32.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But the military in South Africa, its primary role is to enforce the system of apartheid.
[40:32.750 --> 40:35.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And this has been recognized by the United States State Department.
[40:37.010 --> 40:43.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That the South African Defense Force has a crucial role in the enforcement and maintenance of apartheid.
[40:44.210 --> 40:54.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, as I say, they can be involved in right control, patrolling townships, to eliminate any sort of outbreak of opposition.
[40:55.350 --> 40:57.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can occupy schools.
[40:57.230 --> 41:07.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: If the school kids show any sign of opposition or wanting to demand a right, they can enter houses, you know, without a warrant.
[41:07.770 --> 41:13.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, these are some of the activities that the military, by law, is capable of doing.
[41:13.430 --> 41:18.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: And every White citizen, White male citizen, must serve in the armed forces at some point.
[41:18.790 --> 41:19.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Right, yes.
[41:20.110 --> 41:21.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The only...
[41:21.190 --> 41:32.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There is one little loophole if you don't want to serve in the South African military that's available, is that if you're a religious object, you can serve in a non-combatant capacity.
[41:33.190 --> 41:38.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And that's the only alternative available if you don't want to serve in the South African military service.
[41:39.490 --> 41:41.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I am not a religious objector.
[41:41.630 --> 41:42.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm a conscientious objector.
[41:42.870 --> 41:46.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I oppose apartheid, and that's the reason why I don't want to serve in the South African military.
[41:47.450 --> 41:50.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, I don't, you know, get offered that alternative.
[41:51.150 --> 41:53.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The only alternative is jail for me.
[41:53.530 --> 41:54.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, there's...
[41:54.610 --> 42:02.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: There was a piece in the New York Times on November 21st, and there was a...
[42:02.090 --> 42:05.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: I had a question based on something that was said in that article, and I'll read it.
[42:06.050 --> 42:17.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: The United States officially condemns apartheid and voted for a 1978 resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly calling on all member nations to grant asylum to South African conscientious objectors.
[42:18.090 --> 42:19.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, is that not what you are?
[42:19.890 --> 42:21.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's exactly what I am.
[42:21.270 --> 42:24.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, how come the United States isn't granting asylum to you when they voted for that bill?
[42:25.030 --> 42:26.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would love to know the answer to that one.
[42:26.730 --> 42:31.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I've been waiting three years for it, and I was turned down in September this year with absolutely no reason.
[42:31.630 --> 42:40.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I received just a normal, like a master copy letter that just said, you know, dear applicant, you know, they send it to everyone.
[42:40.410 --> 42:46.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You've been turned down for asylum because you don't demonstrate any grounds for persecution when you go back home with no reason.
[42:46.510 --> 42:55.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And usually when they turn you down for asylum, they give a reason why, and they get absolutely no reason after three years waiting, you know, for an answer.
[42:57.210 --> 42:59.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: It took three years to get a reply?
[42:59.350 --> 43:02.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Three years, which is very, very unusual.
[43:03.490 --> 43:05.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You usually get a reply within a couple of months.
[43:06.830 --> 43:08.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's just so ironic.
[43:09.150 --> 43:12.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Currently in the news, there's this gymnast from Romania, Nadia.
[43:13.510 --> 43:19.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: She was granted asylum just when she was boarding the airplane to leave, to come to America.
[43:20.010 --> 43:22.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: She had no documentation that she had to supply, nothing.
[43:23.270 --> 43:25.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think it's all got to do with politics.
[43:26.910 --> 43:30.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think the United States feels very ambivalently towards South Africa.
[43:31.670 --> 43:41.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And to be quite frank, I think the Bush administration is far, far more sympathetic to the racist government that exists in South Africa than a Democratic administration would be.
[43:42.370 --> 43:44.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: How about the Reagan administration?
[43:45.030 --> 43:45.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah.
[43:45.570 --> 43:48.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah, well, the Reagan administration or Bush administration is the same thing.
[43:48.950 --> 43:57.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think a Democratic administration, If it existed, it would have been far more sympathetic to my application for asylum.
[43:57.910 --> 44:03.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Last year, when Dukakis was running for president, he made a statement about South Africa, and he said...
[44:11.170 --> 44:16.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The Republican administration has a far more lenient attitude towards South Africa.
[44:16.890 --> 44:19.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I think that's why it's just taken so long.
[44:19.510 --> 44:23.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, Reagan was in power, you know, he was the president, now we have Bush.
[44:23.570 --> 44:29.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And considering, you know, the Republican attitude towards South Africa, I'm not really surprised I've had to wait this long.
[44:29.890 --> 44:30.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see.
[44:30.510 --> 44:33.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: So now the whole thing is in the hands of the Immigration Department.
[44:33.850 --> 44:35.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's been turned over to the Immigration Department.
[44:35.770 --> 44:37.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's usually the second step.
[44:37.570 --> 44:42.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The State Department, you know, turned down my application for asylum without any reason.
[44:42.270 --> 44:46.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They said, the next step is that you're going to go before an immigration judge now.
[44:46.330 --> 44:47.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And this was called a deportation hearing.
[44:48.550 --> 44:51.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have a hearing in May next year.
[44:51.770 --> 44:58.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I will be calling, you know, for witnesses to support my application for asylum.
[44:59.410 --> 45:00.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So that's the next step.
[45:01.670 --> 45:05.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you have any idea what they're going to expect you to present?
[45:05.370 --> 45:07.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: What are they looking for at that hearing?
[45:07.690 --> 45:10.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would love to know the answer to that one.
[45:10.550 --> 45:19.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have submitted, it must be like, 10,000 pages of documentation, like literally a barrel full of documentation.
[45:20.010 --> 45:24.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have affidavits from people that have been tortured by the South African military.
[45:24.370 --> 45:41.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have expert witnesses, documentation and affidavits from directors of like the Africa Watch, international human rights groups, all indicating that apartheid is morally wrong, it's politically wrong, and the military in South Africa has a fundamental role in enforcement to this unfair system.
[45:41.250 --> 45:43.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have submitted every possible document imaginable.
[45:43.930 --> 45:48.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have satisfied all the criteria for an asylum applicant.
[45:49.210 --> 45:51.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have a fear of persecution if I go home.
[45:52.550 --> 45:59.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm opposing a system which has been condemned by, you know, almost all countries in the world, including the United Nations and the United States.
[45:59.630 --> 46:01.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What more can I do, you know?
[46:02.010 --> 46:05.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I don't know, it's in the hands of God, I suppose, in the administration.
[46:07.750 --> 46:09.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Wow, it's quite an ordeal.
[46:09.970 --> 46:13.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know how you are able to get through things.
[46:13.090 --> 46:13.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's been rather traumatic.
[46:14.150 --> 46:17.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I've been here for four years, and it's just waiting and waiting.
[46:17.570 --> 46:19.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's torture, it really is.
[46:19.130 --> 46:22.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are you very much in touch with people back home?
[46:22.430 --> 46:26.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I try to keep in touch, you know, but my phone bill is quite terrific, as you can imagine.
[46:27.970 --> 46:30.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's hard, you know, we're like 9,000 miles apart.
[46:31.430 --> 46:34.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: You mentioned before that, I believe you said your parents are government supporters?
[46:35.510 --> 46:35.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes.
[46:36.470 --> 46:41.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I was brought up in a sort of home that was very sympathetic, you know, to the whole apartheid regime.
[46:43.030 --> 46:44.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: So this must be...
[46:44.670 --> 46:46.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's caused a difference with my family, my taking a stand.
[46:46.730 --> 46:52.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They did not know about my asylum application until it appeared in the newspapers a couple of weeks ago.
[46:52.850 --> 46:54.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It also appeared in the South African newspapers.
[46:54.930 --> 47:00.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: My mom opened the newspaper one morning and saw that her son had applied for political asylum three years ago.
[47:02.070 --> 47:06.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And now I was going through this procedure, and, you know, it's caused, you know, a few difficult feelings.
[47:08.070 --> 47:16.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That was precisely the reason why I hadn't told them when I came over that I was applying for asylum, because I knew, you know, it would estrange us and make things really difficult.
[47:16.890 --> 47:24.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you know if there are many other people facing what you're facing, either in this country or who are looking for ways of leaving South Africa?
[47:25.030 --> 47:26.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There are a couple, about three or four...
[47:27.610 --> 47:28.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: That you know of.
[47:28.510 --> 47:30.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: ...males, yes, in America that have applied for asylum.
[47:31.050 --> 47:37.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I was about the first person that applied for asylum, and whatever happens to me will probably happen to them.
[47:39.370 --> 47:40.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, you know, we're waiting.
[47:40.990 --> 47:43.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's a chap down south who also applied for asylum.
[47:43.890 --> 47:47.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He was a draft resistor, and he's had a lot of congressional support.
[47:47.930 --> 47:55.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He's had congressmen who have advocated passing a bill, you know, for people in our position from South Africa who opposed apartheid and applying for asylum.
[47:56.490 --> 47:58.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But we're all just waiting now, you know.
[47:58.410 --> 47:59.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's just waiting and waiting.
[48:00.530 --> 48:04.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But I think that what I'm going through is just such a small price to pay.
[48:04.990 --> 48:12.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, people in South Africa now, or the Black people, are going through the most terrible times, have been going through this for years and years.
[48:13.070 --> 48:14.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, they have no rights.
[48:14.610 --> 48:15.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have no right to vote.
[48:16.530 --> 48:19.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They just totally, you know, don't have any mouthpiece.
[48:21.290 --> 48:23.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What I'm going through is really nothing.
[48:23.310 --> 48:25.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know what, yeah, that's a very good point.
[48:25.090 --> 48:35.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: In a way, you know, we're focusing on your problems, but I don't want to give the impression that we're bypassing the major problem of this whole issue, which is, of course, the oppression of the minorities.
[48:35.750 --> 48:37.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry, the majority.
[48:37.470 --> 48:38.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a majority.
[48:38.310 --> 48:39.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a slip of the tongue there.
[48:40.170 --> 48:40.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: As a minority.
[48:40.970 --> 48:41.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Of course.
[48:42.150 --> 48:52.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What makes me particularly upset now is that recently our president in South Africa has made a few changes, such as opening the White beaches to Black people.
[48:53.050 --> 48:53.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[48:53.450 --> 48:54.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I wanted to ask you about that.
[48:54.530 --> 49:00.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the other things that de Klerk is saying, do you think there's hope?
[49:01.650 --> 49:08.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have spoken to several people, and there have been a number of reports in the newspapers from Black people in South Africa.
[49:09.050 --> 49:18.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And so far, de Klerk's changes have not been received with very much optimism by the Black people in South Africa.
[49:20.350 --> 49:23.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: People question how far he's going to go with these changes.
[49:24.550 --> 49:29.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think it's important to make a distinction between grand apartheid and petty apartheid.
[49:30.850 --> 49:36.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Petty apartheid is things like segregated buses, you know, segregated beaches.
[49:36.850 --> 49:42.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Grand apartheid are things like Black people not being able to vote, White people being able to vote.
[49:42.310 --> 49:46.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Black people living in different areas, White people living in nice areas.
[49:46.070 --> 49:51.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Black people having unequal education, inferior education, White people having superior education.
[49:53.410 --> 49:59.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: DeClerk has made tiny little changes like opening the beaches, opening some restaurants or cinemas to Black people.
[50:00.450 --> 50:02.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: These are not relevant issues.
[50:03.170 --> 50:13.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Any change is good, but I think what the Black people want and deserve are equal rights, like equal education, the right to vote.
[50:15.050 --> 50:20.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The president in South Africa has made these changes because of a great deal of international pressure.
[50:21.830 --> 50:29.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But what's interesting is that you're not hearing very many reports from the Black people in South Africa to say that they are thrilled to death with these changes.
[50:30.010 --> 50:38.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, you're getting a lot of propaganda now from South Africa, from the government, saying, oh, we're making these changes, how wonderful, please bring us into the international community again.
[50:39.170 --> 50:42.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But you're not hearing the same thing coming from the Black people.
[50:42.010 --> 50:44.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they're the ones that are affected by all this.
[50:45.530 --> 50:47.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're speaking with Craig Demmer.
[50:47.770 --> 50:56.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: He's a 25-year-old White South African living in New York, facing deportation by the United States because he is...
[50:56.630 --> 51:11.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, he's in the United States because he's refused to enlist in the armed forces in South Africa, and he's facing deportation because the United States State Department refuses to consider him a refugee.
[51:11.190 --> 51:13.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: I believe that's the status you're going for as refugee status?
[51:14.550 --> 51:16.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes, a political asylum applicant, yeah.
[51:17.110 --> 51:17.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[51:18.030 --> 51:22.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: We'll be taking your phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[51:23.150 --> 51:27.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Craig, I wanted to ask you one more question, though, about coverage of all this.
[51:27.830 --> 51:36.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, the current state of affairs in South Africa, there is still censorship imposed upon all foreign reporters.
[51:37.410 --> 51:45.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's still a state of emergency in South Africa, and this makes all these changes that President de Klerk is reporting so hypocritical.
[51:46.010 --> 51:47.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's a state of emergency in South Africa.
[51:47.950 --> 51:49.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's been in existence since 1985.
[51:49.970 --> 52:00.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And one of the things that happens when there's a state of emergency is that there's a news Blackout, and all the media in South Africa is subject to government inspection.
[52:01.810 --> 52:12.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Foreign journalists have absolutely no access to covering events in South Africa, because obviously the government fears that we will see things that we shouldn't see.
[52:12.890 --> 52:20.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, there's a news blackout in South Africa, so you're only hearing things that the government wants you to hear.
[52:21.670 --> 52:22.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sounds familiar.
[52:23.150 --> 52:34.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we're going to be taking phone calls in just a minute at 212-279-3400 if you want to ask Craig Demmer a question or two, or a comment on the issue, and we'll be right back.
[52:45.030 --> 52:55.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[53:15.030 --> 53:16.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't give up a fight.
[53:18.030 --> 53:20.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: You preach a man, don't tell me.
[53:21.630 --> 53:24.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Heaven is under the earth.
[53:25.370 --> 53:31.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: You are duppy and you don't know what life is really worth.
[53:31.930 --> 53:35.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not all that glitter is gold.
[53:35.310 --> 53:38.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: And half a story has never been told.
[53:39.110 --> 53:41.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: So now we see the light.
[53:41.790 --> 53:44.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: We gonna stand up for our rights.
[53:45.030 --> 53:47.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Come on, get up, stand up.
[53:48.750 --> 53:51.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Brothers, stand up for your rights.
[53:52.330 --> 53:54.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Come on, get up, stand up.
[53:55.050 --> 53:55.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sit down.
[53:56.590 --> 53:58.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't give up a fight.
[53:58.970 --> 53:59.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm begging you.
[54:00.170 --> 54:01.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get up, stand up.
[54:03.310 --> 54:05.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stand up for your rights.
[54:06.850 --> 54:08.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get up, stand up.
[54:09.950 --> 54:12.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: I said don't give up a fight.
[54:12.510 --> 54:42.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Cause you know most people think A great God will come from the skies And take away every little thing And let everybody dry But if you know what life is worth You would look for yours right here on earth And now we see the light We gonna stand up for our rights Come on,
[54:42.170 --> 54:43.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: get up, stand up.
[54:43.710 --> 54:45.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't make them push you around.
[54:45.610 --> 54:47.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stand up for your rights.
[54:47.570 --> 54:50.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Come on brothers, get up, stand up.
[54:51.010 --> 54:54.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Be brave now, don't give up the fight.
[54:55.230 --> 55:01.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: I say get up, stand up, stand up for your rights.
[55:01.570 --> 55:02.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't let them hold you down.
[55:03.110 --> 55:04.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get up, stand up.
[55:06.610 --> 55:08.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't give up the fight.
[55:09.270 --> 55:13.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: We are sick and tired of this game of technology.
[55:13.570 --> 55:16.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Humbly asking Jesus for his mercy.
[55:17.050 --> 55:23.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: We know, we know where the mighty Jack is a living man.
[55:23.540 --> 55:26.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: You fool some people sometimes.
[55:26.700 --> 55:30.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you can't fool all the people all the time.
[55:30.900 --> 55:32.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And now we see the light.
[55:33.340 --> 55:36.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're gonna stand up for our rights.
[55:36.940 --> 55:39.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Come on, get up, stand up.
[55:40.820 --> 55:42.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stand up for your eyes.
[55:43.100 --> 55:44.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Come on, our brothers.
[55:44.620 --> 55:46.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get up, stand up.
[55:47.190 --> 55:49.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: I said, don't give up the fight.
[55:50.160 --> 55:51.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't let them push me.
[55:51.000 --> 55:52.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: I said, get up, stand up.
[55:54.600 --> 55:56.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stand up for your eyes.
[56:22.960 --> 57:11.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you have a racist friend Now is the time, now is the time For your friendship to end Be it your sister Be it your brother Be it your cousin Or your uncle Or your lover If you have a racist friend Now is the time Now is the time Now is the time Now is the time For your friendship to end Be it your best friend Or any other Is it your husband Or your father Or your mother
[57:23.700 --> 57:30.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they change their views or change their frame.
[57:30.460 --> 57:36.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now is the time, now is the time for your friendship to end.
[57:47.820 --> 57:54.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if you know our racist thinks he is your friend.
[57:54.780 --> 58:01.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now is the time, now is the time for your friendship to end.
[58:03.820 --> 58:06.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Call yourself my friend.
[58:06.840 --> 58:10.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now is the time to make up your mind.
[58:10.760 --> 58:12.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Don't try to detain.
[58:13.140 --> 58:15.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Be it your sister.
[58:15.480 --> 58:18.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Be it your brother.
[58:19.140 --> 58:24.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Be it your cousin or your uncle or your lover.
[58:25.500 --> 58:30.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if you are racist, our friendship has got to end.
[58:31.260 --> 58:34.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if your friends are racist, don't you?
[58:43.290 --> 58:48.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now is the time, now is the time for our friendship to end.
[59:29.110 --> 59:34.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: From August 1983, that's the special AKA racist friend.
[59:34.590 --> 59:40.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I would tend to think that the United States has a racist friend in the name of South Africa.
[59:40.950 --> 59:44.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it certainly is long, long overdue for that friendship to end.
[59:44.930 --> 59:47.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have Craig Demmer with us.
[59:47.850 --> 01:00:00.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: He's a White South African here in New York seeking political asylum and apparently losing the battle and facing deportation because he refuses to serve in the armed forces in South Africa.
[01:00:01.870 --> 01:00:08.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I'm just wondering, Craig, why there aren't more people like you and why there haven't been people like you in the past.
[01:00:08.270 --> 01:00:10.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is this part of a trend, do you think?
[01:00:10.310 --> 01:00:12.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I don't know, Emmanuel.
[01:00:13.050 --> 01:00:25.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: About two months ago, 780 White males as well made a public statement that they were fed up with the whole system in South Africa and they would refuse to serve in the military as well.
[01:00:26.610 --> 01:00:36.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Out of those that eventually, when the time came for them to report for duty, a lot of them did report for duty and only a handful, you know, resisted.
[01:00:37.250 --> 01:00:44.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In the last year or so, there have been a couple of documented cases of people resisting to serve in the military.
[01:00:44.810 --> 01:00:54.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And there have been, you know, public cases and lots of publicity and they were sentenced to six years in jail, including a doctor who worked in one of the townships in South Africa.
[01:00:54.330 --> 01:01:00.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He set up a clinic for 30,000 Black people in a squatter camp.
[01:01:00.270 --> 01:01:04.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And he was the sole doctor there for six years, crossroads.
[01:01:05.990 --> 01:01:08.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Some Americans may be familiar with that name.
[01:01:09.370 --> 01:01:11.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a squatter camp in South Africa.
[01:01:11.350 --> 01:01:13.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He refused to serve in the South African military.
[01:01:13.750 --> 01:01:16.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And last year, he was sentenced to six years in jail.
[01:01:16.090 --> 01:01:17.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And he's currently sitting in jail.
[01:01:17.690 --> 01:01:19.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And there are a couple of others now as well.
[01:01:20.110 --> 01:01:28.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think there's any chance of White people changing things from within the country and not leaving the country?
[01:01:28.430 --> 01:01:33.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: In other words, just standing up to this law, standing up to the prison sentence, demonstrating?
[01:01:33.590 --> 01:01:34.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think it's...
[01:01:34.490 --> 01:01:44.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That happened, you know, as I said, like a couple of months ago, 780, you know, White males made a stand and said, you know, we are just totally in opposition to this whole system, you know, this military system.
[01:01:46.290 --> 01:01:48.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: A couple have, you know, gone one stage further.
[01:01:49.070 --> 01:01:56.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, when the time came for them to, you know, call up, you know, enlist, you know, a couple have actually resisted.
[01:01:56.750 --> 01:01:59.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And now probably are awaiting trial in South Africa.
[01:01:59.510 --> 01:02:02.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: But are the 780 of them, are they still united?
[01:02:03.250 --> 01:02:04.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's difficult to assess.
[01:02:05.390 --> 01:02:09.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I can't give an honest answer to that.
[01:02:09.290 --> 01:02:10.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I really wouldn't know.
[01:02:10.670 --> 01:02:20.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What I do know is a handful, to my knowledge, have actually, you know, gone through one stage further and, you know, have, on the day that they had to enlist, refused to.
[01:02:21.830 --> 01:02:27.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: A lot made a public announcement, but didn't follow it up, you know, that they would not serve in the military.
[01:02:27.250 --> 01:02:39.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But there have been, like, six documented cases that went through the whole publicity thing of opposing a military service and have been thrown into jail now and serving the military, you know, the sentence six years, including this Dr. Ivan Toms that I've just mentioned.
[01:02:41.090 --> 01:02:42.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, we're going to go right to the phones.
[01:02:42.970 --> 01:02:50.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: I just wanted to take a quick look at this newspaper report that appeared, I believe, in Tuesday's Times, a state line, Johannesburg, December 11th.
[01:02:50.930 --> 01:03:00.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: 12 policemen and an army officer were acquitted of murder on December 11th in the first such private prosecution brought in South Africa.
[01:03:00.250 --> 01:03:13.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: The 13 members of the security forces were involved in an operation near Cape Town on October 15th, 1985, in which policemen hiding on the back of a large truck opened fire on protesters who were stoning passing vehicles.
[01:03:14.350 --> 01:03:15.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Three young men were killed.
[01:03:16.230 --> 01:03:27.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: After a judicial inquest found the security force members responsible for the deaths, the parents of the dead youths tried to bring legal action, but the attorney general of Cape Province refused to prosecute the case.
[01:03:27.890 --> 01:03:38.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: The family of Sean Mahmood, who was 16 years old when he died of gunshot wounds, then decided to file murder charges independently with the aid of civil rights lawyers.
[01:03:38.870 --> 01:03:45.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: The family of another victim, Michael Miranda, who was 11, postponed its plans for legal action pending the outcome of this trial.
[01:03:46.730 --> 01:03:50.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: And today, or on December 11th, the judge D.M.
[01:03:50.890 --> 01:04:04.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Williamson ruled that the lawyers representing the Mahmood family had failed to prove criminal intent on the part of the officers who planned the Trojan horse operation, as it was subsequently called, and the men who carried it out.
[01:04:04.910 --> 01:04:15.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Justice Williamson agreed that the security force members had overreacted to a manifestly dangerous situation by firing shotguns indiscriminately into the crowd.
[01:04:15.770 --> 01:04:25.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: If successful, the private murder prosecution would have set a precedent for opening other cases in which policemen or soldiers had killed protesters.
[01:04:25.630 --> 01:04:33.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: The Trojan horse incident took place in the mixed-race township of Athlon during a wave of racial unrest in 1985.
[01:04:34.050 --> 01:04:39.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Some of the protesters had set up burning barricades and were hurling stones at passing cars and trucks.
[01:04:40.070 --> 01:04:50.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: The South African authorities decided to try to stop it by hiding a dozen policemen and the army officer in crates on a freight truck, which was driven through the troubled neighborhood.
[01:04:50.350 --> 01:05:02.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: When the protesters began stoning the truck on its return trip, the policemen jumped from concealment and, without identifying themselves or sounding a warning, fired shotguns into the mob.
[01:05:02.970 --> 01:05:12.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: Video camera footage, introduced as evidence in court, showed that the indiscriminate shooting lasted about 15 seconds after the stone-throwing had stopped.
[01:05:14.210 --> 01:05:21.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Justice Williamson described the stone-throwing as vicious and murderous and said a limited-armed response was justified.
[01:05:21.530 --> 01:05:28.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: But he said the tragic outcome should be a warning to those in authority to never again plan such an operation.
[01:05:28.470 --> 01:05:36.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, it's interesting how the blame for the entire thing was thrown on the people throwing stones.
[01:05:37.330 --> 01:05:40.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, Manuel, that's not the first time it's happened.
[01:05:40.350 --> 01:05:41.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm sure it's not.
[01:05:41.290 --> 01:05:51.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: One of numerous cases, since 1985, over 1,100 men, women, and children have been killed by the security forces in South Africa.
[01:05:51.450 --> 01:05:52.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I'm talking about children.
[01:05:53.270 --> 01:05:58.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have documentation, affidavits from their family, people, children being tortured and being killed.
[01:05:59.330 --> 01:06:01.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to ask you one question, then we'll go right to the phones.
[01:06:01.430 --> 01:06:02.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you see a parallel here?
[01:06:02.850 --> 01:06:05.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of people have said this, and there's been a lot of debate over it.
[01:06:05.730 --> 01:06:08.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: But do you see a parallel between the West Bank situation and this?
[01:06:09.910 --> 01:06:11.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In what respect?
[01:06:11.550 --> 01:06:15.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you have stone-throwing demonstrators being shot to death.
[01:06:15.710 --> 01:06:18.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, maybe that's where the similarity ends.
[01:06:18.630 --> 01:06:19.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I don't know.
[01:06:20.410 --> 01:06:21.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: What's your insight into it?
[01:06:21.750 --> 01:06:23.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's hard to really determine.
[01:06:23.450 --> 01:06:27.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think, you know, the South African people are fighting for a cause.
[01:06:27.770 --> 01:06:32.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I think that cause is, you know, the abolition of apartheid.
[01:06:32.730 --> 01:06:36.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, that has the support of the world community.
[01:06:37.590 --> 01:06:48.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They are... they have no way of, you know, expressing their opinions and opposition through normal legal channels, because they have no representation in Parliament.
[01:06:49.590 --> 01:06:52.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: How else can they voice their opposition to apartheid?
[01:06:52.830 --> 01:06:55.040]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have the military patrolling their townships.
[01:06:55.590 --> 01:07:01.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Are they just going to sit and watch the, you know, the trucks roll by and, you know, and people invade their houses?
[01:07:01.710 --> 01:07:02.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, what can they do?
[01:07:04.230 --> 01:07:04.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: What indeed.
[01:07:05.850 --> 01:07:07.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's take some calls.
[01:07:07.470 --> 01:07:08.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[01:07:09.110 --> 01:07:09.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:07:11.990 --> 01:07:12.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[01:07:12.870 --> 01:07:13.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good morning.
[01:07:13.790 --> 01:07:14.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[01:07:14.090 --> 01:07:14.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:07:15.110 --> 01:07:31.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to just begin by saying I'm appalled at what I hear, you know, this dear man, to have to undergo such treatment by a government that supposedly gives refugees and, you know, political asylum.
[01:07:31.490 --> 01:07:36.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let me just say, Emmanuel, I enjoy your program, and I hope you'll have a steady spot.
[01:07:36.570 --> 01:07:36.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[01:07:37.410 --> 01:07:37.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:39.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Write in a letter and say that.
[01:07:39.570 --> 01:07:40.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I will.
[01:07:40.290 --> 01:07:42.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm writing to Andrew Phillips about many things.
[01:07:42.450 --> 01:07:43.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Monroe, by the way.
[01:07:43.430 --> 01:07:47.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say that I went to this El Salvadorian rally.
[01:07:47.190 --> 01:07:48.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you don't mind me just mentioning it.
[01:07:48.850 --> 01:07:50.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I also went to the Pittston rally.
[01:07:51.010 --> 01:07:51.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[01:07:51.730 --> 01:07:54.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: For the Pittston miners, the Eastern Airlines flyers.
[01:07:54.210 --> 01:07:55.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: You are going to tie this together.
[01:07:55.850 --> 01:07:56.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm tying it together.
[01:07:56.850 --> 01:07:57.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:07:57.350 --> 01:07:59.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's all part of the entire thing.
[01:07:59.910 --> 01:08:09.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: I admit I didn't get to the St. Patrick's rally about the church thing, but that's because I felt there would be enough people, and there certainly were.
[01:08:09.430 --> 01:08:12.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: But some of these rallies don't get proper coverage.
[01:08:12.490 --> 01:08:21.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to tell Craig that I went to the Mandela rallies, one in Central Park and one up in Mount Morris Park in Harlem, the latest one.
[01:08:21.690 --> 01:08:25.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: For Nelson Mandela, that brave man, as you well know, right, Craig?
[01:08:25.330 --> 01:08:25.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[01:08:26.190 --> 01:08:29.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: My God, can you imagine being in prison for 28 years?
[01:08:29.410 --> 01:08:32.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you really imagine what it is to a human life?
[01:08:32.230 --> 01:08:32.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:08:32.590 --> 01:08:33.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hold on, hold on, hold on.
[01:08:33.570 --> 01:08:36.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: We seem to have trouble here with the callers hearing each other, Monroe.
[01:08:36.430 --> 01:08:37.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: I heard, I heard.
[01:08:37.630 --> 01:08:38.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: You heard me, Carl.
[01:08:38.330 --> 01:08:38.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:08:38.630 --> 01:08:40.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we were both talking at the same time.
[01:08:40.910 --> 01:08:41.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, Monroe, go ahead.
[01:08:42.070 --> 01:08:42.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:08:42.550 --> 01:08:46.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I just want to go into what I would like to offer to adopt Craig.
[01:08:47.750 --> 01:08:48.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm 58.
[01:08:49.270 --> 01:08:49.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm 58.
[01:08:49.590 --> 01:08:54.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm saying, if I can take a poor dog or a poor cat, I have a cat.
[01:08:54.990 --> 01:09:08.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I can take a creature of this world, not that I think any are not worthy, but if this poor man cannot stay in this country, I offer that I will become involved to adopt him in.
[01:09:08.110 --> 01:09:09.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[01:09:09.370 --> 01:09:10.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, let's...
[01:09:10.210 --> 01:09:10.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just say this.
[01:09:10.970 --> 01:09:11.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's an interesting point.
[01:09:11.910 --> 01:09:15.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would hope that the NAACP is doing something.
[01:09:15.630 --> 01:09:18.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would hope that Jesse Jackson knows about this.
[01:09:18.410 --> 01:09:21.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would hope that everybody would be...
[01:09:21.710 --> 01:09:26.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: This man is a shining light of what I would like to be considered.
[01:09:26.570 --> 01:09:33.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, a person who, on conscience, has to speak up and then is even jeopardizing his own life.
[01:09:34.090 --> 01:09:35.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Craig, I want you to know something.
[01:09:35.950 --> 01:09:46.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: I love WBAI, but I have been so tortured because I fought for certain aspects where freedom of speech was being sullied and mistreated.
[01:09:46.430 --> 01:09:48.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And as a result, I'm hung up on it a lot.
[01:09:48.690 --> 01:09:49.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Emmanuel, you haven't done it.
[01:09:49.970 --> 01:09:50.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I thank you.
[01:09:50.430 --> 01:09:51.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll get off now.
[01:09:51.350 --> 01:09:53.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do offer and I stand by my words.
[01:09:54.030 --> 01:09:54.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:09:54.650 --> 01:09:55.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:09:56.690 --> 01:09:58.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, he brought up an interesting point.
[01:10:00.190 --> 01:10:00.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Adoption.
[01:10:00.750 --> 01:10:03.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that if somebody were to adopt you, would that solve your problem?
[01:10:04.370 --> 01:10:07.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The problem is I'm not young enough, Emmanuel.
[01:10:07.750 --> 01:10:08.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's true.
[01:10:08.390 --> 01:10:12.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That alternative is only available to someone under, I think, 14 years of age.
[01:10:12.890 --> 01:10:13.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see.
[01:10:13.330 --> 01:10:14.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: How about marriage then?
[01:10:14.290 --> 01:10:16.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The only alternative for me is to apply for asylum.
[01:10:17.650 --> 01:10:19.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And there's no other way, really.
[01:10:19.530 --> 01:10:21.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you mentioned marriage before, though.
[01:10:21.870 --> 01:10:23.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Marriage is one as well.
[01:10:23.090 --> 01:10:23.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know?
[01:10:23.990 --> 01:10:26.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Any eligible women out there.
[01:10:26.190 --> 01:10:27.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But I'm only kidding.
[01:10:28.010 --> 01:10:28.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah.
[01:10:28.930 --> 01:10:30.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm doing this for a reason.
[01:10:30.730 --> 01:10:31.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know?
[01:10:31.770 --> 01:10:33.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm making a stand.
[01:10:33.410 --> 01:10:37.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, I want to educate people about what's really going on in South Africa.
[01:10:37.310 --> 01:10:39.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I'm willing to put up with, you know, all this inconvenience.
[01:10:40.490 --> 01:10:43.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, I'm prepared to see this thing through, to write to the end.
[01:10:45.210 --> 01:10:46.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What can I say?
[01:10:46.290 --> 01:10:47.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I just hope for the best.
[01:10:47.690 --> 01:10:55.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I'd like you to give out any kind of address or phone number at this point so that we can catch those people that might tune out before the end of the program.
[01:10:56.510 --> 01:10:59.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anything that people can write to or send or do to help?
[01:11:00.770 --> 01:11:15.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, the best thing they could do is, you know, to write to their, you know, their congressman, you know, to, you know, if they're willing to make some sort of support for my case, you know, to let their congressman know about this whole situation and,
[01:11:15.530 --> 01:11:16.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: you know, what's going on in South Africa.
[01:11:17.250 --> 01:11:20.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm being represented by the ACLU in New York.
[01:11:21.450 --> 01:11:26.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they've been very active in pursuing, you know, my case for, you know, political asylum.
[01:11:26.050 --> 01:11:33.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I'm sure they would like to hear from anyone that would, you know, would like to support, you know, the cause that I hope that I represent.
[01:11:35.270 --> 01:11:44.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Any support whatsoever would be very, very helpful, you know, through church groups or, you know, through, you know, people's congressmen or whatever would be very, very much appreciated.
[01:11:45.630 --> 01:11:45.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:11:46.050 --> 01:11:46.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's take another call.
[01:11:47.050 --> 01:11:47.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:11:48.330 --> 01:11:48.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[01:11:49.370 --> 01:11:49.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[01:11:49.870 --> 01:11:50.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:11:51.070 --> 01:11:51.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:11:51.350 --> 01:11:51.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Turn down your radio.
[01:11:52.250 --> 01:11:55.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: I would like to talk about his position.
[01:11:56.130 --> 01:11:57.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sir, could you turn down your radio?
[01:11:57.750 --> 01:11:58.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[01:11:58.270 --> 01:12:07.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: I would like to talk about his position or what motivated him to actually get involved with this.
[01:12:07.870 --> 01:12:16.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, he grew up in South Africa and most of the time his teachings were the teachings of, of the people in South Africa.
[01:12:17.190 --> 01:12:28.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I would like to know what kind of influence motivated him to go to all this ordeal and what made him fight for this.
[01:12:28.110 --> 01:12:29.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I would understand.
[01:12:29.670 --> 01:12:37.530]  [SPEAKER_20]: I understand that there must have been other people that probably help him to, to see the light in this matter.
[01:12:37.650 --> 01:12:43.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: But I would like to know what actually influenced him to, to pursue this, this crusade.
[01:12:43.990 --> 01:12:45.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who, who and what inspired you?
[01:12:46.010 --> 01:12:47.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's a very good question.
[01:12:47.530 --> 01:12:56.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, the gentleman's right, you know, during high school and, you know, my early years, I wasn't really exposed to anyone that had any opposition to the whole system.
[01:12:56.350 --> 01:13:01.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But when I was 18, I went to university and, and I began training as a social worker.
[01:13:01.190 --> 01:13:07.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And for the very first time, I was exposed to conditions that I had never, you know, seen before, you know, like Black areas and poverty.
[01:13:07.950 --> 01:13:15.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, and I, you know, studied under very, very, um, you know, influential people that were well known for opposing the system.
[01:13:15.490 --> 01:13:21.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I studied under Professor Fatima Mir, and she is a world renowned sociologist.
[01:13:21.450 --> 01:13:27.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, um, she has been banned for years and years and been placed under house arrest by the government in South Africa.
[01:13:27.210 --> 01:13:28.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: She's an Indian woman.
[01:13:28.730 --> 01:13:32.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, so I was, you know, exposed to a number of, um, you know, lecturers and professors.
[01:13:33.130 --> 01:13:49.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And just mainly, I think, through practical experience and field work as a social work student, um, um, that sort of brought me around, um, to the reality that exists in South Africa, the terrible conditions that people, um, are subjected to just by virtue of their race.
[01:13:49.690 --> 01:13:59.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I think I always, you know, I think there was always some sort of suspicion, um, about the system in South Africa, you know, from an early age.
[01:13:59.010 --> 01:14:05.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But, you know, I was never subjected to any, you know, real criticism from people, um, about the system until I reached university.
[01:14:06.630 --> 01:14:19.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: So it would seem, uh, to me that, uh, South African government had better worry about the university, uh, you know, if they could somehow prevent, uh, people from reaching that stage, they might be able to actually control them a little bit better.
[01:14:19.990 --> 01:14:23.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, you know, Emmanuel, they tried to do that when I was at university.
[01:14:24.670 --> 01:14:28.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, the, uh, military, you know, the police were quite often seen on campus.
[01:14:29.150 --> 01:14:35.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, it's illegal in South Africa to have protests, you know, like you've mentioned the St. Patrick's Day, you know, a march.
[01:14:35.630 --> 01:14:36.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's illegal in South Africa.
[01:14:36.750 --> 01:14:37.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Forget it.
[01:14:37.750 --> 01:14:39.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, any protest like that.
[01:14:39.210 --> 01:14:42.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I, I was locked up once in a lecture hall.
[01:14:42.490 --> 01:14:46.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There was, uh, uh, just a debate on some issue that was happening in South Africa.
[01:14:46.630 --> 01:14:47.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I can't remember what.
[01:14:47.830 --> 01:14:53.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And the police arrived with their, their dogs and, uh, they barricaded, you know, all the doors and locked us in for a couple of hours.
[01:14:54.310 --> 01:14:54.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Um...
[01:14:54.670 --> 01:14:56.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Wait, you mean, uh, somebody started debating?
[01:14:56.910 --> 01:14:59.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: Word got out that there was a debate going on and they surrounded the building?
[01:14:59.330 --> 01:15:02.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I was a member of, uh, a student group, the Student Representatives Council.
[01:15:03.930 --> 01:15:12.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, and, um, you know, just one day, you know, the police heard about this and, um, they just decided that, you know, we weren't allowed to proceed with this.
[01:15:12.610 --> 01:15:15.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, it was a peaceful, it wasn't even a demonstration, it was just a big discussion.
[01:15:16.330 --> 01:15:17.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And a lecture hall.
[01:15:17.870 --> 01:15:20.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, um, they cordoned it off and we weren't allowed to proceed.
[01:15:21.170 --> 01:15:24.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, student leaders have been banned, they've been harassed.
[01:15:24.250 --> 01:15:26.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I mean, this is a common practice in South Africa.
[01:15:27.010 --> 01:15:35.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, um, the, the South African government tries to do anything in its power to suppress opposition or, you know, criticism of its policies.
[01:15:36.130 --> 01:15:38.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's going on right this month as I'm speaking.
[01:15:38.450 --> 01:15:41.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's a current state of emergency and it's been in existence since 1985.
[01:15:42.930 --> 01:15:49.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, um, I would just like to make people aware of the fact that, uh, President de Klerk is saying that he's making all these wonderful changes.
[01:15:49.450 --> 01:15:52.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: How about abolishing a state of emergency?
[01:15:52.350 --> 01:15:56.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And how about giving everyone an equal right in the say and the running of the government?
[01:15:56.650 --> 01:15:57.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Any other questions from our caller?
[01:15:58.590 --> 01:16:12.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, I think, you know, he pretty much answered the question, but, um, I would like to tell him that, uh, I admire his courage and I don't think that, uh, I would be as violent as him as to go through, to what he went through.
[01:16:12.810 --> 01:16:21.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, uh, I, I, um, I guess one of the things that I wanted to say is that, um, there is, there is a lot of things that people that are listening to the program can do.
[01:16:22.630 --> 01:16:35.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, I, I particularly go to the city college myself and, uh, I, I also been to school and I, I'm familiar with people that are from the South African system and, uh, they usually don't talk much about it.
[01:16:35.330 --> 01:16:49.010]  [SPEAKER_20]: But I, I know for a fact that, uh, it must be, you know, it must be pretty, uh, a cultural shock for him to come to the United States and see, uh, how different things are in the United States as compared to South Africa.
[01:16:49.630 --> 01:17:02.690]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, I guess another question that I would like to ask him is about, uh, the international community that travels to South Africa and see this type of, uh, of a situation.
[01:17:02.690 --> 01:17:16.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, how they react to it, or I understand that the Japanese are considered, um, um, um, how they call that, I think it's, um, uh, honorary Whites, I think.
[01:17:17.670 --> 01:17:31.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, uh, how is the investments of the international community pouring into South Africa and, uh, affecting or helping the, uh, apartheid system to actually keep working the way it is?
[01:17:31.930 --> 01:17:33.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, so you can listen to the answer on your radio.
[01:17:34.250 --> 01:17:35.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'll, uh, release the line.
[01:17:35.650 --> 01:17:36.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's when other caller can get through.
[01:17:36.710 --> 01:17:37.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:17:38.050 --> 01:17:39.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, do you want to address that question?
[01:17:39.310 --> 01:17:40.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah, that's a very good question.
[01:17:41.150 --> 01:17:43.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, a number of issues were raised, actually.
[01:17:44.050 --> 01:17:49.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, visitors from other countries that go to South Africa, if they're Black, they are given an honorary status.
[01:17:49.330 --> 01:17:50.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They're called honorary Whites.
[01:17:51.150 --> 01:17:54.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they are permitted to stay in White hotels.
[01:17:54.390 --> 01:17:54.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry.
[01:17:54.930 --> 01:17:57.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know if anybody else finds that incredibly funny, but I do.
[01:17:57.850 --> 01:17:58.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Honorary Whites?
[01:17:58.790 --> 01:17:58.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes.
[01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:01.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Given honorary, um, honorary White status.
[01:18:01.670 --> 01:18:03.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: A temporary White pass, perhaps?
[01:18:04.290 --> 01:18:13.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, I can tell you something even more ludicrous, and that's, um, everyone in South Africa has an identity document, and on that document, they are classified as a certain race.
[01:18:13.910 --> 01:18:22.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And there are many, many times during the year when people have had their classification change from a colored person to an Indian, or from an Indian to a White person.
[01:18:22.930 --> 01:18:25.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: People have had their race changed a couple of times.
[01:18:26.250 --> 01:18:27.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You cannot keep up with it.
[01:18:27.710 --> 01:18:33.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But whatever the government feels, you know, you're classified as one year, you know, it's up to them.
[01:18:33.490 --> 01:18:35.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's, it's, you know, it's really ridiculous.
[01:18:35.770 --> 01:18:37.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry, I interrupted your answer to the question, though.
[01:18:37.590 --> 01:18:37.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah.
[01:18:38.110 --> 01:18:45.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, so, you know, Americans that, well, you know, people of different races that come to South Africa are given a different status, which I think is just totally cruel and ridiculous.
[01:18:46.290 --> 01:18:56.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, and the other issue that, um, the gentleman raised was, um, um, I think economic, uh, sanctions, maybe how investment, uh, sanctions have affected South Africa.
[01:18:56.990 --> 01:19:01.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think, um, it has affected, um, South Africa.
[01:19:01.810 --> 01:19:13.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think the, the clerk has made a few changes now, and it's only because of international pressure and the fact that, um, most Western countries have imposed sanctions over the last few years, economic sanctions.
[01:19:13.870 --> 01:19:22.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would just like to stress that I would love, you know, the countries, uh, Western countries, including the United States, to maintain these economic sanctions.
[01:19:22.770 --> 01:19:29.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think that's the only leverage our countries have, Western countries in the world, to force this government in South Africa to change.
[01:19:30.130 --> 01:19:37.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, I'm going to throw the old, uh, Reagan slash Bush retort, uh, at you, and then, uh, I'd like to hear a defense of, uh, of what you've said.
[01:19:38.230 --> 01:19:46.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Um, a, uh, any kind of, uh, of trade embargo or whatever will simply hurt those people that we want to help the most.
[01:19:46.130 --> 01:19:47.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, what, what, what's, what do you have to say to that?
[01:19:47.750 --> 01:19:48.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Right.
[01:19:48.250 --> 01:19:51.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And what's, what happens is they're sure they are going to be hurt.
[01:19:51.470 --> 01:19:55.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: People are losing jobs because American companies are withdrawing from South Africa.
[01:19:56.070 --> 01:19:58.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But, um, this is a very important point now.
[01:19:59.090 --> 01:20:01.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Who are you hearing from in South Africa?
[01:20:01.610 --> 01:20:04.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Who are saying, please continue with sanctions?
[01:20:04.590 --> 01:20:05.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Please impose them.
[01:20:05.810 --> 01:20:07.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Is it the White people or the Black people?
[01:20:08.370 --> 01:20:09.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I can answer that for you.
[01:20:09.970 --> 01:20:10.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's the Black people.
[01:20:11.130 --> 01:20:12.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Bishop Desmond Tutu.
[01:20:13.390 --> 01:20:14.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He's an example.
[01:20:14.410 --> 01:20:24.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: These are people who are affected by these sanctions, but they know that it's the, you know, the only resort that other countries have to exert an influence on the South African government.
[01:20:24.970 --> 01:20:36.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's really sad that they have to undergo even more, you know, deprivation, um, lose jobs, um, you know, you know, incur more hardship, but they know that there's just no other way.
[01:20:36.730 --> 01:20:37.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let me ask you one question.
[01:20:38.050 --> 01:20:43.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: You mentioned, uh, identity cards, uh, saying what kind of race you are and everything like that.
[01:20:43.310 --> 01:20:45.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that, that led me to, uh, to think of something.
[01:20:45.850 --> 01:20:50.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: How much high technology is in the hands of the South African government?
[01:20:50.490 --> 01:20:55.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: How easy is it for them to, uh, computerize their operations and categorize everybody nice and neatly?
[01:20:57.590 --> 01:21:00.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, I don't know how, if they can do it neatly.
[01:21:00.450 --> 01:21:02.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I think it's rather a messy affair.
[01:21:02.910 --> 01:21:08.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, but they obviously have the bureaucracy, um, you know, in South Africa, um, to do this.
[01:21:08.890 --> 01:21:13.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, uh, you, you wonder where all the money goes in South Africa, all the taxpayer money.
[01:21:14.010 --> 01:21:17.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, now, you know, it's to pay for all these ridiculous identity documents.
[01:21:17.910 --> 01:21:23.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, forget about, you know, uh, spending this money on Black children, you know, on their education.
[01:21:23.590 --> 01:21:23.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:21:23.850 --> 01:21:29.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I, I guess my question is those identity documents, are they computerized or are they done by hand or what?
[01:21:29.850 --> 01:21:44.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: No, it's just like, I suppose, you know, uh, the Americans will have what, you know, your, your, your, a normal identity document, but you'll have your photo and it will have a classification and you'll probably get interviewed if, um, um, you see Black people get to have different rights to White people.
[01:21:44.310 --> 01:21:50.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And often people will apply for a different, uh, racial classification because they'll be eligible for, for different rights.
[01:21:50.550 --> 01:21:54.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, you know, we have four, I think four different race groups in South Africa.
[01:21:54.050 --> 01:21:56.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We have the Indians, we have the coloreds.
[01:21:56.910 --> 01:21:57.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have mixed blood.
[01:21:58.070 --> 01:21:59.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We have African.
[01:21:59.410 --> 01:22:00.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And did I mention Whites?
[01:22:01.110 --> 01:22:01.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We have about four.
[01:22:02.590 --> 01:22:10.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, so people that have colored mixed race may, um, apply to like the department of internal affairs to get reclassified as White people.
[01:22:11.450 --> 01:22:17.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they'll go for informal interview and there may be genetic tests or something done or physician may see them determine that.
[01:22:17.710 --> 01:22:18.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: All right.
[01:22:18.250 --> 01:22:21.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, they may be White looking, so we'll reclassify them as White.
[01:22:22.550 --> 01:22:23.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's the way it happens.
[01:22:23.590 --> 01:22:36.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: See, the reason I'm interested in the, uh, technology aspect, I'm, I'm just familiar with, uh, ways that, uh, that governments can categorize their citizens through computers, do cross-referencing, and just be very efficient and quick with it.
[01:22:37.070 --> 01:22:40.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I just would shudder to think of that in the hands of the South African government.
[01:22:40.910 --> 01:22:41.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, yeah.
[01:22:42.150 --> 01:22:51.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, there's a huge bureaucracy that exists and, um, you know, who knows what the internal mechanism is like, but all I know is that it has a terrible effect, you know, on people.
[01:22:51.190 --> 01:22:54.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, they're just putty on the hands of the bureaucracy there.
[01:22:54.630 --> 01:22:54.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:22:54.810 --> 01:22:57.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: The question I'm asking is how effective is that bureaucracy?
[01:22:57.290 --> 01:22:58.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: How efficient is it?
[01:22:58.330 --> 01:23:03.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe somebody out there has more specific information as far as, you know, the internal workings.
[01:23:03.570 --> 01:23:07.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, our, uh, number is 279-3400, area code 212.
[01:23:07.430 --> 01:23:07.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:23:08.510 --> 01:23:09.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[01:23:09.670 --> 01:23:10.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, that's me.
[01:23:10.390 --> 01:23:11.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: Turn down the radio and speak in the phone.
[01:23:11.970 --> 01:23:12.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hello?
[01:23:12.430 --> 01:23:13.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, go ahead.
[01:23:13.630 --> 01:23:17.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, first of all, I'd like to, uh, welcome Craig and, uh, uh, applaud him.
[01:23:17.950 --> 01:23:21.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: My goodness, it's, uh, it's a marvelous, uh, thing he's doing.
[01:23:21.570 --> 01:23:22.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's the sort of thing that I think I might do.
[01:23:23.010 --> 01:23:26.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, I'm a, uh, I'm an, of African descent.
[01:23:26.450 --> 01:23:30.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, uh, most people, I guess, in America would consider me Black.
[01:23:30.210 --> 01:23:33.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: I do not consider myself Black because nobody can be Black.
[01:23:34.690 --> 01:23:38.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, I, I just want to say that that's really the bottom of the whole issue.
[01:23:39.070 --> 01:23:41.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I noticed he, he refers to himself as a White person.
[01:23:41.970 --> 01:23:43.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: You refer to him as a White person.
[01:23:44.290 --> 01:23:45.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, he's not a White person.
[01:23:46.010 --> 01:23:47.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: He is, uh, a human being.
[01:23:47.970 --> 01:23:48.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no way he could be White.
[01:23:49.150 --> 01:23:59.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody who knows anything about ontology or epistemology or existentialism knows that they're, uh, a human being is a, uh, a, a cognitive, animate being.
[01:24:00.010 --> 01:24:02.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: A color is a non-cognitive, inanimate object.
[01:24:02.710 --> 01:24:03.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: These things could never, never equal.
[01:24:04.030 --> 01:24:05.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the basis of the whole thing.
[01:24:05.850 --> 01:24:15.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's interesting that, uh, that, uh, Winnie Mandela in her book, uh, Part of My Soul Wentworth said that she would never, never use the word Black or White.
[01:24:15.470 --> 01:24:19.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's the sort of thing that's imposed on them, uh, by the government.
[01:24:19.690 --> 01:24:23.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: And essentially, that's the same thing that's happening in America here.
[01:24:23.970 --> 01:24:26.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why the media will not give up this, uh, this Black-White thing.
[01:24:27.070 --> 01:24:34.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's a, it's a means of polarizing people and preventing people from, from enjoying the friendship, uh, of each other.
[01:24:34.810 --> 01:24:39.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's the thing that you first of all have to, to come to grips with, is as to who you are.
[01:24:39.470 --> 01:24:40.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: People don't know who they are.
[01:24:40.650 --> 01:24:41.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: They think that they're White.
[01:24:41.810 --> 01:24:42.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: They think they're Black.
[01:24:42.950 --> 01:24:44.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: They think that they're this or that.
[01:24:44.550 --> 01:24:45.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they're none of these things.
[01:24:45.490 --> 01:24:48.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what, what you think you are, Emmanuel.
[01:24:48.970 --> 01:24:54.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and just, let me stop for a minute and ask, uh, Craig, uh, who does he think he is?
[01:24:54.110 --> 01:24:54.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does he think he's White?
[01:24:55.930 --> 01:25:05.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, um, being brought up in a situation, you know, an environment like South Africa, you know, you are brainwashed and you are thought in terms of, you know, what color your skin is.
[01:25:05.350 --> 01:25:06.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's the way it is.
[01:25:06.570 --> 01:25:11.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, however much we may disagree with it, that's the way it is in South Africa.
[01:25:11.090 --> 01:25:13.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Uh, I regard myself as an African.
[01:25:13.790 --> 01:25:14.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[01:25:14.370 --> 01:25:19.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's exactly what you are, because skin, uh, uh, has no operative, uh, value.
[01:25:19.970 --> 01:25:33.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and, uh, you know, if you start to think about it, people are regularly, uh, flown in from various places in, in, in the, from the world, India, China, and so on, for various, uh, medical operations and so on.
[01:25:33.470 --> 01:25:39.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you notice that there doesn't have to be any change in the diagnostic or treatment facilities to treat these various people.
[01:25:39.110 --> 01:25:41.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: They, these, uh, they can be done with anyone.
[01:25:41.450 --> 01:25:43.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: People are actually the same.
[01:25:43.270 --> 01:25:47.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no indicia that could prove that people are different.
[01:25:47.610 --> 01:25:48.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no way.
[01:25:48.630 --> 01:25:55.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, I have that problem with people all the time, because people look at me and say, well, as a, as a Black man, what do you think?
[01:25:55.390 --> 01:26:00.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, as a Black man, I don't, I can't think as a Black man, because I'm not a Black man.
[01:26:00.270 --> 01:26:01.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a human being.
[01:26:01.790 --> 01:26:04.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is just the label this was giving us.
[01:26:04.470 --> 01:26:07.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in this way, uh, South Africa and America, very, very similar.
[01:26:08.150 --> 01:26:11.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: They took, uh, us, came as, as slaves.
[01:26:11.370 --> 01:26:16.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: They gave us this identity as Black, because in that situation, Blacks got nothing and the Whites got everything.
[01:26:17.170 --> 01:26:17.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that was it.
[01:26:18.110 --> 01:26:26.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, uh, to go back to an old, uh, African proverb, uh, it's not a question of, uh, what you think I am.
[01:26:26.110 --> 01:26:27.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's what I answer to.
[01:26:27.510 --> 01:26:32.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so I, you gotta start with that identity as to who you are.
[01:26:33.070 --> 01:26:35.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: And know that, first of all, that you're a human being.
[01:26:35.490 --> 01:26:36.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not Black.
[01:26:36.130 --> 01:26:36.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not White.
[01:26:36.870 --> 01:26:37.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not pink.
[01:26:38.450 --> 01:26:45.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because that, you can take a, a kid 10 years old, hold him in your arms and show him a color.
[01:26:45.230 --> 01:26:46.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't care what color it is.
[01:26:46.550 --> 01:26:50.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you tell that kid, look, what is it you can do that this color can't do?
[01:26:50.550 --> 01:26:51.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: The kid could tell you.
[01:26:51.510 --> 01:26:51.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: He'll tell you.
[01:26:52.050 --> 01:26:52.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can sing.
[01:26:53.030 --> 01:26:53.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can dance.
[01:26:53.730 --> 01:26:55.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can, a color can't do anything.
[01:26:55.550 --> 01:26:56.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: A color is dead.
[01:26:56.990 --> 01:27:03.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is just, and the same game that's being played in, in Africa is being played in America.
[01:27:04.250 --> 01:27:06.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, get back to your particular situation.
[01:27:07.250 --> 01:27:11.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: If there's anything I can do to help you, I would.
[01:27:11.610 --> 01:27:14.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you tell me what to do, I'll do it.
[01:27:14.410 --> 01:27:26.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I have to tell you that if I would start to help you, that very soon there'd be people in my life that I would not welcome, and they'd be asking me questions, and I just don't know how far they would go.
[01:27:26.810 --> 01:27:34.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because to bring people together in this world is one of the most dangerous enterprises that a person can be involved in.
[01:27:35.130 --> 01:27:37.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can see that by Malcolm X.
[01:27:37.110 --> 01:27:43.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: As long as Malcolm X was talking Black rhetoric, racist rhetoric, he was allowed to exist.
[01:27:43.070 --> 01:27:46.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: But once he went to Mecca and came back, and he came back, something as a universalist then.
[01:27:47.290 --> 01:27:50.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was, he didn't feel that people should be separated and so forth.
[01:27:50.430 --> 01:27:53.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: And his life after that was very, very short.
[01:27:53.370 --> 01:27:55.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Martin Luther King, the same thing.
[01:27:55.130 --> 01:27:59.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: As long as he was writing letters from a Birmingham jail and talking about
[01:28:05.290 --> 01:28:08.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: what's happening in America here.
[01:28:08.870 --> 01:28:11.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why the media will not give up this Black-White thing.
[01:28:11.750 --> 01:28:19.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's a means of polarizing people and preventing people from enjoying the friendship of each other.
[01:28:19.510 --> 01:28:24.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's the thing that you first of all have to come to grips with as to who you are.
[01:28:24.030 --> 01:28:25.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Our people don't know who they are.
[01:28:25.330 --> 01:28:26.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: They think that they're White.
[01:28:26.450 --> 01:28:27.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: They think they're Black.
[01:28:27.590 --> 01:28:29.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: They think that they're this or that.
[01:28:29.130 --> 01:28:30.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they're none of these things.
[01:28:30.210 --> 01:28:33.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what you think you are, Emmanuel.
[01:28:33.770 --> 01:28:38.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And just let me stop for a minute and ask Craig, who does he think he is?
[01:28:38.510 --> 01:28:39.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does he think he's White?
[01:28:41.270 --> 01:28:46.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, being brought up in a situation, you know, an environment like South Africa, you know, you are brainwashed.
[01:28:46.410 --> 01:28:50.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And your thoughts in terms of, you know, what color your skin is, that's the way it is.
[01:28:50.570 --> 01:28:55.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, however much we may disagree with it, that's the way it is in South Africa.
[01:28:55.430 --> 01:28:57.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I regard myself as an African.
[01:28:58.170 --> 01:29:03.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's exactly what you are, because skin has no operative value.
[01:29:04.150 --> 01:29:16.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, if you stop to think about it, people are regularly flown in from various places in the world, India, China, and so on, for various medical operations and so on.
[01:29:16.990 --> 01:29:22.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you notice that there doesn't have to be any change in the diagnostic or treatment facilities to treat these various people.
[01:29:23.050 --> 01:29:24.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: These can be done with anyone.
[01:29:25.130 --> 01:29:26.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: People are actually the same.
[01:29:26.710 --> 01:29:30.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no indicia that could prove that people are different.
[01:29:30.770 --> 01:29:31.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no way.
[01:29:31.950 --> 01:29:38.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I have that problem with people all the time, because people look at me and say, well, as a Black man, what do you think?
[01:29:38.630 --> 01:29:43.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, as a Black man, I can't think as a Black man, because I'm not a Black man.
[01:29:43.510 --> 01:29:44.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a human being.
[01:29:44.870 --> 01:29:47.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is just a label this was giving us.
[01:29:47.530 --> 01:29:50.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in this way, South Africa and America are very, very similar.
[01:29:50.910 --> 01:29:53.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: They took us, came as slaves.
[01:29:54.270 --> 01:29:59.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: They gave us this identity as Black, because in that situation, Blacks got nothing and the Whites got everything.
[01:29:59.790 --> 01:30:00.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that was it.
[01:30:00.890 --> 01:30:08.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: But to go back to an old African proverb, it's not a question of what you think I am.
[01:30:08.790 --> 01:30:09.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's what I answer to.
[01:30:09.830 --> 01:30:17.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so you've got to start with that identity as to who you are and know that, first of all, that you're a human being.
[01:30:17.850 --> 01:30:18.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not Black.
[01:30:18.570 --> 01:30:19.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not White.
[01:30:19.270 --> 01:30:19.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not pink.
[01:30:21.270 --> 01:30:27.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because you can take a kid 10 years old, hold him in your arms, and show him a color.
[01:30:27.450 --> 01:30:28.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't care what color it is.
[01:30:28.750 --> 01:30:32.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you tell that kid, what is it you can do that this color can't do?
[01:30:32.650 --> 01:30:33.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: The kid could tell you.
[01:30:33.710 --> 01:30:35.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can sing.
[01:30:35.110 --> 01:30:35.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can dance.
[01:30:35.830 --> 01:30:36.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can dance.
[01:30:36.250 --> 01:30:37.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: A color can't do anything.
[01:30:37.770 --> 01:30:38.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: A color is dead.
[01:30:38.570 --> 01:30:39.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is just...
[01:30:39.530 --> 01:30:45.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the same game that's being played in Africa is being played in America.
[01:30:46.110 --> 01:30:48.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, get back to your particular situation.
[01:30:49.030 --> 01:30:53.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: If there's anything I can do to help you, I would.
[01:30:53.290 --> 01:30:56.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you tell me what to do, I'll do it.
[01:30:56.190 --> 01:31:04.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I have to tell you that if I would start to help you, that very soon there'd be people in my life that I would not welcome.
[01:31:04.330 --> 01:31:08.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they'd be asking me questions, and I just don't know how far they would go.
[01:31:08.310 --> 01:31:16.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because to bring people together in this world is one of the most dangerous enterprises that a person can be involved in.
[01:31:16.150 --> 01:31:18.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can see that by Malcolm X.
[01:31:18.290 --> 01:31:24.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: As long as Malcolm X was talking Black rhetoric, racist rhetoric, he was allowed to exist.
[01:31:24.250 --> 01:31:27.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: But once he went to Mecca and came back, and he came back something as a universalist then.
[01:31:27.890 --> 01:31:31.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: He didn't feel that people should be separated and so forth.
[01:31:31.490 --> 01:31:33.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: And his life after that was very, very short.
[01:31:34.130 --> 01:31:35.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Martin Luther King, the same thing.
[01:31:35.950 --> 01:31:42.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: As long as he was writing letters from a Birmingham jail and talking about the system, fine.
[01:31:42.390 --> 01:31:48.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: But once he went to Chicago and started to unify the transportation workers and so forth, short life.
[01:31:48.770 --> 01:31:51.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you've got to understand that this is a very, very dangerous enterprise.
[01:31:52.470 --> 01:31:55.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can do anything you want unless you do something.
[01:31:56.450 --> 01:31:57.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you understand what I'm saying.
[01:31:58.130 --> 01:31:59.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sir, if I can just break in here.
[01:31:59.990 --> 01:32:04.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're saying that, well, you want to break down the color barriers.
[01:32:04.810 --> 01:32:09.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: But if I read you correctly, you're saying that once you actually do that in practice, it becomes very dangerous?
[01:32:10.330 --> 01:32:21.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying that for the people of the opposition, for the people who are orchestrating this polarization and alienation in the world, that they will attack you if you do something like this.
[01:32:21.670 --> 01:32:26.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I've attempted to speak at universities about just this particular thing.
[01:32:26.450 --> 01:32:30.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in some cases, the heads of the universities have been notified.
[01:32:31.390 --> 01:32:38.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: In some cases, the heads of departments have been fired, merely because they allowed me to say things like this.
[01:32:38.690 --> 01:32:38.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: See?
[01:32:39.170 --> 01:32:40.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: But however, the truth is the truth.
[01:32:41.030 --> 01:32:45.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: As I said before, if you go back to ontology, which you probably know what it is.
[01:32:45.570 --> 01:32:47.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a study of the nature and existence of being.
[01:32:47.830 --> 01:32:49.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: That is, how do things exist?
[01:32:49.710 --> 01:32:52.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: A human being cannot exist in terms of a color.
[01:32:52.350 --> 01:32:55.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: A human being can only exist in terms of his moral prerogatives.
[01:32:55.550 --> 01:33:01.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, of course, the whole reason why most people are very confused about what existentialism is.
[01:33:01.170 --> 01:33:08.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because when it came to this country, the powers that be recognized that this was something that could break down this whole business of segregation and racism.
[01:33:09.110 --> 01:33:12.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so they fought it every way they could.
[01:33:12.790 --> 01:33:17.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: So the result is that most people today, if you ask them what existentialism is, they really don't know.
[01:33:18.290 --> 01:33:23.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, but to get back to Craig, I believe he's got what you're saying...
[01:33:23.630 --> 01:33:23.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:33:23.970 --> 01:33:25.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: ...is what is motivating him.
[01:33:25.690 --> 01:33:26.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that not correct, Craig?
[01:33:26.810 --> 01:33:27.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:33:27.450 --> 01:33:31.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Craig, he's a human being, he's a humanist, and he's a humanitarian.
[01:33:32.190 --> 01:33:39.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: But you see, you've got to avoid the position of the great White father looking down on a so-called Black person and helping him.
[01:33:39.190 --> 01:33:45.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: But realize that you are exactly like these people that you're helping, and they are exactly like you.
[01:33:45.350 --> 01:33:47.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no difference at all between you two.
[01:33:48.250 --> 01:33:51.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, that might give some people some problems.
[01:33:51.790 --> 01:33:59.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: But if you're biblical or you look in the Bible, you look at Acts 17, 26, it says, Of one blood I have made all nations.
[01:34:00.250 --> 01:34:01.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what the Bible says.
[01:34:02.070 --> 01:34:05.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, you shouldn't have a problem with that.
[01:34:05.290 --> 01:34:07.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yet, in America, we have a very, very serious problem.
[01:34:07.970 --> 01:34:18.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: And even in stations like Channel 13, PBI, and so forth, they will allow you to conduct this controversy as long as you do it in the framework of this dichotomy.
[01:34:18.730 --> 01:34:21.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: As long as you talk about, be nice to people who are different from you.
[01:34:21.910 --> 01:34:22.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's a lie.
[01:34:22.850 --> 01:34:25.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: The people that you're not being nice to are exactly as you.
[01:34:25.890 --> 01:34:27.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no difference at all.
[01:34:27.350 --> 01:34:29.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, it's borne out from time to time.
[01:34:29.430 --> 01:34:32.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: During an earthquake or during a war, people say, well, people got together and so forth.
[01:34:32.810 --> 01:34:34.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: People are always the same.
[01:34:34.670 --> 01:34:40.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, now, you know, what you're saying could sound negative in a way, but I know what you're saying.
[01:34:40.230 --> 01:34:43.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're saying people are the same, they have the same potential, the same rights, and everything like that.
[01:34:44.070 --> 01:34:45.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, of course, we're all different on the inside, right?
[01:34:46.250 --> 01:34:47.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, why are we different on the inside?
[01:34:47.810 --> 01:34:48.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're all individuals.
[01:34:49.290 --> 01:34:49.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, of course.
[01:34:50.050 --> 01:34:54.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that, of course, obtains even within the group, within any group.
[01:34:54.430 --> 01:34:54.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have variations.
[01:34:55.690 --> 01:34:59.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, basically, the same, people are the same, and people react the same.
[01:34:59.690 --> 01:35:00.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right, of course.
[01:35:00.390 --> 01:35:00.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay?
[01:35:00.930 --> 01:35:02.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I respond to that, Emmanuel.
[01:35:02.070 --> 01:35:02.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:35:03.050 --> 01:35:03.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to open up the line.
[01:35:04.050 --> 01:35:04.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks very much for calling, sir.
[01:35:04.990 --> 01:35:05.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks so much.
[01:35:05.530 --> 01:35:05.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:35:05.870 --> 01:35:06.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:35:06.310 --> 01:35:06.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Respond.
[01:35:07.650 --> 01:35:10.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think we're all in agreement that everyone is equal.
[01:35:10.290 --> 01:35:12.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We're all humans, and that's the basic issue.
[01:35:12.470 --> 01:35:13.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Forget about the color of the skin.
[01:35:13.730 --> 01:35:14.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That means absolutely nothing.
[01:35:15.250 --> 01:35:18.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The governments in South Africa, you know, agree that everyone's equal.
[01:35:18.850 --> 01:35:26.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But the reason why we have apartheid is that so one colored skin, one race, can be in a superior position to the other.
[01:35:26.210 --> 01:35:32.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: However, the Black people are in a subservient position to advance the power of the Whites.
[01:35:33.850 --> 01:35:38.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The government in South Africa knows exactly, you know, biologically everyone's equal.
[01:35:38.190 --> 01:35:38.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They're not stupid.
[01:35:39.670 --> 01:35:51.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But they, you know, put out this, you know, propaganda or legislation that Black people are subservient and therefore should not have a right to vote or have any say in the government.
[01:35:51.910 --> 01:35:53.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And therefore you have the Whites in power.
[01:35:54.610 --> 01:35:55.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a political thing.
[01:35:55.890 --> 01:35:57.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, everyone knows people are equal.
[01:35:58.970 --> 01:36:02.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that that notion scares a lot of people.
[01:36:02.950 --> 01:36:03.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Sure, sure.
[01:36:04.110 --> 01:36:05.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a frightening thought.
[01:36:05.170 --> 01:36:08.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: The caller brought up an interesting point, though, in parallels in the U.S.
[01:36:08.390 --> 01:36:09.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you see many of them?
[01:36:10.890 --> 01:36:13.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Quite honestly, sometimes on a more subtle level.
[01:36:14.570 --> 01:36:16.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In South Africa, you know, racism is institutionalized.
[01:36:17.750 --> 01:36:19.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, it's in the legislation.
[01:36:19.970 --> 01:36:21.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, it's legal.
[01:36:21.590 --> 01:36:22.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Apartheid's legal.
[01:36:22.290 --> 01:36:25.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: People are separated according to their race.
[01:36:25.310 --> 01:36:26.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And that's written in the law books.
[01:36:26.830 --> 01:36:27.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In America, that's not so.
[01:36:28.050 --> 01:36:29.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Everyone's supposed to be equal.
[01:36:29.410 --> 01:36:35.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But now and again, you know, you do have instances of racism, which are pretty scary, like, you know, the Howard Beach episode, etc.
[01:36:37.290 --> 01:36:40.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So that's not a governmental or legal thing.
[01:36:40.310 --> 01:36:44.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's just, like, basic prejudice, you know, which exists among the people.
[01:36:45.370 --> 01:36:46.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's awful.
[01:36:46.690 --> 01:36:48.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But then you get that in any society.
[01:36:48.650 --> 01:36:51.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The difference with South Africa is that it's legalized.
[01:36:52.450 --> 01:36:53.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, let's take another call.
[01:36:53.870 --> 01:36:57.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our telephone number is 212-279-3400.
[01:36:57.190 --> 01:36:58.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[01:36:59.150 --> 01:37:07.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a South African here in New York, who is facing deportation by the United States.
[01:37:09.150 --> 01:37:11.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because, apparently, they are not satisfied.
[01:37:12.050 --> 01:37:14.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: When I say they, I mean they, the United States government.
[01:37:14.910 --> 01:37:16.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: I say that increasingly, you know.
[01:37:16.790 --> 01:37:18.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: They don't represent me.
[01:37:18.950 --> 01:37:21.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: So it's kind of a weird thing to call the United States they.
[01:37:21.970 --> 01:37:29.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: But in any event, the United States government, it says that Craig Demmer does not meet the refugee status.
[01:37:30.130 --> 01:37:36.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: He is not able to seek political asylum in this country because he cannot prove that he will be persecuted.
[01:37:37.070 --> 01:37:45.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: If he returns home to South Africa after refusing to serve in the armed forces, when, in fact, he faces, was it six years in prison?
[01:37:45.270 --> 01:37:50.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Six years and up to ten years for advocating a resistance to apartheid and to conscription.
[01:37:50.950 --> 01:37:58.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So a pretty lengthy sentence and God knows what else for activities, going public and, you know, opposing apartheid.
[01:37:58.650 --> 01:38:02.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: If I'm not mistaken, one of the arguments that the U.S.
[01:38:02.510 --> 01:38:06.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: State Department said, was it the State Department that ruled?
[01:38:07.450 --> 01:38:12.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They have given absolutely no opinion, but in previous cases, they have, you know, given various opinions.
[01:38:12.610 --> 01:38:21.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, I saw this somewhere in the New York Times article that since the penalty here in the United States is very similar for people...
[01:38:21.030 --> 01:38:21.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, yes.
[01:38:21.250 --> 01:38:30.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: One of the arguments is that people who resist the draft in America get about five years imprisonment, which is almost the same as in South Africa.
[01:38:30.650 --> 01:38:31.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You get six years.
[01:38:31.650 --> 01:38:33.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: So it's not looked upon as undue punishment.
[01:38:33.710 --> 01:38:34.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah.
[01:38:34.650 --> 01:38:44.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The thing is, serving in the American armed services, you know, armed force, is quite different to serving in the South African military.
[01:38:45.610 --> 01:38:46.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: I can imagine.
[01:38:46.670 --> 01:38:46.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know what I'm saying?
[01:38:47.070 --> 01:38:47.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:38:48.690 --> 01:38:58.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Americans will be serving in the military to maintain democracy, and the South African military, you're there to maintain the system of apartheid.
[01:39:00.390 --> 01:39:01.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Fundamental difference.
[01:39:01.650 --> 01:39:05.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So the State Department does not acknowledge that.
[01:39:05.470 --> 01:39:08.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The South African military is totally different to the American military.
[01:39:08.430 --> 01:39:12.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: If you oppose, you know, the draft, that's one issue.
[01:39:12.930 --> 01:39:15.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But if you oppose apartheid, that's something else.
[01:39:16.290 --> 01:39:16.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's true.
[01:39:18.070 --> 01:39:23.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Another thing that I believe was raised was the fact that everybody there gets the same sentence.
[01:39:25.030 --> 01:39:31.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: So you cannot prove that you individually are being persecuted since everybody that does what you do gets the same sentence.
[01:39:31.790 --> 01:39:33.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: It seems like, you know, mumbo-jumbo to me.
[01:39:33.930 --> 01:39:35.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It is a lot of mumbo-jumbo.
[01:39:35.450 --> 01:39:37.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's just to make life very difficult, actually.
[01:39:37.390 --> 01:39:52.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But I have gone public, you know, and I've appeared on TV and through various media, you know, expressing my opposition to apartheid and advocating resistance to serving in the military and anything that will involve the maintenance of apartheid.
[01:39:52.910 --> 01:40:07.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And for these activities, you know, I have a great deal of fear that I will be thrown into jail, not only for, you know, refusing to serve in the military, but under all sorts of other legislation that's in existence in South Africa.
[01:40:07.410 --> 01:40:14.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I encourage, you know, economic sanctions against South Africa, and that's another 10-year sentence that could be imposed on me.
[01:40:15.150 --> 01:40:18.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I advocate resistance to serving in the South African military.
[01:40:18.210 --> 01:40:19.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's another 10 years.
[01:40:19.310 --> 01:40:21.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a state of emergency in South Africa.
[01:40:21.290 --> 01:40:25.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: People can get thrown into jail for wearing a free Mandela T-shirt, and that's happened.
[01:40:25.710 --> 01:40:27.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: And how long has Mandela been in jail now?
[01:40:28.250 --> 01:40:30.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, I think for 20 years since the 60s.
[01:40:31.250 --> 01:40:31.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: 20-odd years.
[01:40:31.910 --> 01:40:36.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: More than that, you know, it's, you know, it's inconceivable that somebody could be in jail for so long.
[01:40:37.450 --> 01:40:38.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, it's ridiculous.
[01:40:38.950 --> 01:40:46.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So what's so ironic is, you know, recently in September, nine African leaders were released from jail, ANC leaders.
[01:40:46.830 --> 01:40:48.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: One of them was Walter Sassoulu.
[01:40:48.730 --> 01:40:52.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, President de Glouc, you know, he wanted all this applause from the world community.
[01:40:52.730 --> 01:40:54.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, look, I've released all these prisoners.
[01:40:54.630 --> 01:40:56.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And do you know Walter Sassoulu's son?
[01:40:56.850 --> 01:41:01.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He's a journalist, is banned, he cannot practice as a journalist, and he's under house arrest.
[01:41:02.930 --> 01:41:04.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Has the government done anything about that?
[01:41:05.530 --> 01:41:07.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, he's still under house arrest.
[01:41:07.430 --> 01:41:09.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The father's been freed, but his son's under house arrest.
[01:41:09.790 --> 01:41:16.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think a lot of it depends upon publicity, you know, how much is talked about.
[01:41:16.310 --> 01:41:23.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think most people in South Africa, Black people, are very, very cynical, with good reason, with regard to the changes that our president's made.
[01:41:23.310 --> 01:41:25.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He's doing this all just for the publicity.
[01:41:25.690 --> 01:41:27.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's just due to international pressure.
[01:41:27.310 --> 01:41:31.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The economy has deteriorated incredibly as a result of these economic sanctions.
[01:41:31.650 --> 01:41:33.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And he's just so desperate to seek approval.
[01:41:34.550 --> 01:41:35.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And he's getting it.
[01:41:35.730 --> 01:41:36.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Unfortunately, he's getting it.
[01:41:36.930 --> 01:41:42.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: People are being lulled into this false sense of security, that things are really changing, and things are getting wonderful in South Africa.
[01:41:42.710 --> 01:41:45.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But I'm just mentioning all these things that are still happening in South Africa.
[01:41:46.130 --> 01:41:49.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, the nationalist government has been in power since 1948.
[01:41:50.190 --> 01:41:54.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What people may argue, oh, you know, we have to proceed cautiously, or slowly with change.
[01:41:54.750 --> 01:41:55.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Change can't happen overnight.
[01:41:56.150 --> 01:42:01.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: My argument is that the nationalist government have had 40 years to give people the right to vote in South Africa.
[01:42:03.510 --> 01:42:12.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Another thing that we have lost sight of here in the United States is the, well, you mentioned the state of emergency still exists, but the state of censorship.
[01:42:12.230 --> 01:42:25.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: Every time we read a newspaper story in the New York Times or, you know, over the Associated Press or see it on ABC News or something, that report has been affected by censors in some way.
[01:42:25.890 --> 01:42:34.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, there used to be a little thing at the beginning of every story saying this, but they've stopped running that little piece that tells you this story has been censored.
[01:42:34.990 --> 01:42:38.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think the result of that is that people think it's over.
[01:42:38.730 --> 01:42:43.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: People think there is no censorship, and what they're getting is the real story, when in effect, they're not at all.
[01:42:43.850 --> 01:42:44.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's totally true.
[01:42:44.830 --> 01:42:57.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In the beginning of South Africa, when the state of emergency went into effect, all the South African newspapers left big blanks and all the columns in the papers indicating that this is where their story would be, but because of government censorship,
[01:42:57.710 --> 01:42:59.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: they couldn't print the story.
[01:42:59.910 --> 01:43:05.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And same as in America, there'd be a little byline saying that due to government censorship, not all facts could be printed.
[01:43:06.450 --> 01:43:19.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But the censorship has been going on for a number of years now, and for some reason, you know, people forget that there's still censorship, and, you know, the bylines have been dropped, and we get such a little dripling of, you know, information from South Africa.
[01:43:19.250 --> 01:43:22.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But the situation is exactly the same in South Africa.
[01:43:22.890 --> 01:43:24.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's still strict censorship.
[01:43:24.950 --> 01:43:36.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Emmanuel, you asked me before I appeared on the show if there was anyone in South Africa that would like to be on the show as well, and I mentioned that I would be very afraid to ask someone in South Africa to appear on the show because it's forbidden,
[01:43:36.990 --> 01:43:44.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: and they would be subject to, you know, harassment or God knows what other fate for speaking out against the government while they're still in South Africa.
[01:43:45.710 --> 01:43:46.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's certainly true.
[01:43:46.950 --> 01:43:49.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It shows you so much about the censorship in South Africa.
[01:43:49.230 --> 01:43:51.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: One quick question, then we'll go right back to the phones.
[01:43:52.250 --> 01:43:58.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: A Black person at your age, would they be subjected to any kind of military obligation?
[01:43:59.210 --> 01:43:59.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: No, no.
[01:44:00.070 --> 01:44:01.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's purely voluntary.
[01:44:02.750 --> 01:44:04.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's only compulsory for White people.
[01:44:05.610 --> 01:44:14.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The government would never make Black people serve in the military because, obviously, why should they to perpetuate the system of apartheid?
[01:44:14.530 --> 01:44:17.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, it's totally illogical, you know.
[01:44:18.530 --> 01:44:25.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: It is, but at the same time, that practice is in itself an admission of the true intent of their system.
[01:44:26.850 --> 01:44:27.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Exactly.
[01:44:27.550 --> 01:44:33.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, what happens, I'm just curious, what happens to a Black person that does volunteer for the military?
[01:44:33.810 --> 01:44:35.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There are reserves.
[01:44:35.270 --> 01:44:38.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes, they serve in limited capacities.
[01:44:39.150 --> 01:44:40.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They're not usually on the front lines.
[01:44:41.450 --> 01:44:47.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We have, you know, a couple of, you know, a portion of Black people that serve in the South African military.
[01:44:47.850 --> 01:44:49.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a nice, secure job, you know.
[01:44:49.970 --> 01:44:50.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They pay well.
[01:44:51.810 --> 01:44:54.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I don't know if those people really have too much of a conscience.
[01:44:54.810 --> 01:45:02.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would feel very, very, I don't know, concerned, you know, being a Black person and going into a township and raiding a Black house.
[01:45:03.870 --> 01:45:08.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would feel just, as a White person, I'd feel very guilty doing that, but I don't know.
[01:45:08.490 --> 01:45:09.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I can't really speak for other people.
[01:45:10.710 --> 01:45:13.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're listening to WBAI, New York City.
[01:45:13.450 --> 01:45:15.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[01:45:15.850 --> 01:45:29.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're speaking with Craig Demmer, a White South African here in New York who has opposed the draft and faces a six-year jail sentence and also faces being forcibly returned to South Africa by the United States.
[01:45:30.990 --> 01:45:36.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Actually, you face quite a bit more than six years if all those things you were mentioning before come to fruition.
[01:45:36.850 --> 01:45:40.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: I believe something like 30 years in jail for advocating the things...
[01:45:40.930 --> 01:45:42.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: This radio program would probably carry a couple of years.
[01:45:42.990 --> 01:45:43.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It probably would.
[01:45:44.850 --> 01:45:46.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, hopefully they won't get a tape of it.
[01:45:46.810 --> 01:45:47.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's go back to the phones.
[01:45:48.370 --> 01:45:48.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:45:50.390 --> 01:45:51.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is anyone there?
[01:45:52.750 --> 01:45:53.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Occasionally that happens.
[01:45:53.830 --> 01:45:55.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our listeners fall asleep.
[01:45:56.270 --> 01:46:02.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're sorry that we keep the phones ringing so long, but, you know, at least we don't pick them up and put you on hold like other radio stations do.
[01:46:03.010 --> 01:46:04.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: You don't have to pay for it until we pick up the phone.
[01:46:04.890 --> 01:46:06.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: The only thing we ask is that you stay awake.
[01:46:08.270 --> 01:46:08.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:46:09.250 --> 01:46:09.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, good evening.
[01:46:10.350 --> 01:46:11.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, I wanted to ask...
[01:46:11.290 --> 01:46:12.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let me turn on the radio.
[01:46:12.210 --> 01:46:14.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wanted to ask the South Africans a question.
[01:46:14.270 --> 01:46:15.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's just so interesting.
[01:46:15.210 --> 01:46:19.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: One is, how does your family react to this back in South Africa and its publicity about you?
[01:46:20.110 --> 01:46:25.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And two, regarding the AIDS march, things like that, in South Africa, how would a group, like, act up?
[01:46:25.850 --> 01:46:27.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: How would that be tolerated?
[01:46:27.310 --> 01:46:33.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or someone who's just plainly, just openly homosexual, but not a political activist, how would they react to that in South Africa?
[01:46:35.270 --> 01:46:36.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead, Craig.
[01:46:36.410 --> 01:46:36.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Okay.
[01:46:36.890 --> 01:46:38.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Those are two issues.
[01:46:38.590 --> 01:46:41.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: First one, I'll deal with this regard to my family and their reaction.
[01:46:41.970 --> 01:46:53.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I didn't tell them when I came over why I was coming over and what I did, and that was seek political asylum because I knew the way they felt and I just knew it would create more, you know, harder feelings between us.
[01:46:53.730 --> 01:47:00.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They learned about it, as I said, a while ago when they opened the papers in South Africa and had read my story.
[01:47:02.250 --> 01:47:10.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's created, you know, a rather difficult situation because we represent, you know, different ends of, you know, opinion, political spectrum of opinion.
[01:47:12.370 --> 01:47:14.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, we're 9,000 miles apart.
[01:47:14.210 --> 01:47:16.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I haven't seen them for five years and I love my family dearly.
[01:47:16.850 --> 01:47:18.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, it's very hard.
[01:47:18.430 --> 01:47:19.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's really hard.
[01:47:19.230 --> 01:47:20.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, what can I say?
[01:47:22.010 --> 01:47:30.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The other issue you mentioned like ACT UP demonstration, that's getting a little bit off the topic because that's not really racism and what I'm speaking about and that's apartheid.
[01:47:30.990 --> 01:47:34.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But, you know, it's very difficult in South Africa to demonstrate.
[01:47:34.830 --> 01:47:42.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Something like that would not be tolerated in South Africa whatsoever, regardless of the fact that it's to do with AIDS or, you know, it doesn't matter what the topic is.
[01:47:42.690 --> 01:47:47.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, you cannot go and chain yourself to pews or walk along the street with a placard.
[01:47:47.530 --> 01:47:48.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's totally forbidden.
[01:47:48.490 --> 01:47:49.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: What would they do?
[01:47:49.830 --> 01:47:50.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They'd throw you into jail.
[01:47:51.250 --> 01:47:52.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Detention without trial.
[01:47:52.570 --> 01:47:55.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: But what if a lot of people I'm not just talking about one or two.
[01:47:55.630 --> 01:47:56.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes, a lot of people.
[01:47:57.110 --> 01:48:06.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Hundreds, you know, during the state of emergency, hundreds of like school children have been put into, you know, you know, trucks and hurled off to prison.
[01:48:07.050 --> 01:48:09.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I'm talking about White establishment people if they protest.
[01:48:09.710 --> 01:48:15.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: they are just as liable under the legislation to be put into jail for anything like that.
[01:48:16.170 --> 01:48:16.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: I see.
[01:48:16.770 --> 01:48:18.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: It sounds very cruel over there.
[01:48:18.710 --> 01:48:21.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a very repressive system in South Africa, you know.
[01:48:21.570 --> 01:48:22.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do they deal with AIDS in itself?
[01:48:23.010 --> 01:48:23.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm just curious.
[01:48:23.510 --> 01:48:25.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I hate to take off the topic but I'm just...
[01:48:25.290 --> 01:48:27.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because I mean, we hear so much about the Blacks in South Africa.
[01:48:27.650 --> 01:48:27.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do they...
[01:48:27.950 --> 01:48:28.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm just curious about all these...
[01:48:28.950 --> 01:48:33.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do they deal with AIDS and things like that and how does the Jewish population fare over there and things like that?
[01:48:34.330 --> 01:48:35.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I find...
[01:48:35.750 --> 01:48:41.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: to be honest, I'm going to find it rather difficult Good to answer that question, because I haven't been back, you know, for over four years now.
[01:48:41.310 --> 01:48:44.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And a lot has happened, I think, you know, during that time.
[01:48:45.050 --> 01:48:48.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So I don't know if I really am in a position to address that question.
[01:48:49.630 --> 01:48:55.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In South Africa, the way things are, you know, they don't encourage dissent or, you know, to express your opinion.
[01:48:55.770 --> 01:49:02.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Anything that's in opposition to the government's thinking is met with, you know, imprisonment or, you know, harassment or house arrest.
[01:49:02.450 --> 01:49:03.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a very repressive system.
[01:49:04.370 --> 01:49:04.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: I see.
[01:49:05.010 --> 01:49:07.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And just one last question, I know, because I don't want to keep the lines.
[01:49:08.070 --> 01:49:11.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: I know there's a difference between the Africana Whites and the English settlers.
[01:49:13.210 --> 01:49:14.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is there a big difference?
[01:49:14.870 --> 01:49:15.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: And also, what's your family?
[01:49:15.990 --> 01:49:18.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah, that's a very good question, actually.
[01:49:18.890 --> 01:49:21.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, racism is so ingrained in South Africa.
[01:49:21.230 --> 01:49:22.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It even affects people of the same race.
[01:49:23.550 --> 01:49:27.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In South Africa, we have two languages, official languages, and that's English and Afrikaans.
[01:49:28.890 --> 01:49:30.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm from an English background.
[01:49:31.330 --> 01:49:33.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The English people in South Africa tend to be more liberal.
[01:49:33.750 --> 01:49:37.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, my family's not an exception, I suppose.
[01:49:37.790 --> 01:49:41.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And then you have the Afrikaners, and they form the bulk of government supporters.
[01:49:42.050 --> 01:49:47.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The government of South Africa is made of, you know, White minority, and most of them are Afrikaans, of Afrikaans descent.
[01:49:48.870 --> 01:49:49.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I see.
[01:49:49.410 --> 01:49:51.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, thank you very much, and good luck, and you have a lot of courage.
[01:49:51.870 --> 01:49:52.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you very much.
[01:49:52.550 --> 01:49:52.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bye-bye.
[01:49:52.970 --> 01:49:53.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:49:54.710 --> 01:49:55.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[01:49:55.490 --> 01:50:02.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, that caller did touch upon a good point there, as far as what would happen if a lot of people demonstrated.
[01:50:02.850 --> 01:50:04.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you say they would all be thrown into jail.
[01:50:05.050 --> 01:50:05.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: Fine.
[01:50:05.690 --> 01:50:08.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, that's something I would probably expect in South Africa.
[01:50:08.830 --> 01:50:12.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: But at what point do things start changing?
[01:50:12.170 --> 01:50:15.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because that's what's going to have to happen in order for things to change.
[01:50:15.170 --> 01:50:17.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: People are going to have to continually march in the street.
[01:50:17.390 --> 01:50:18.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, it's happening in Eastern Europe.
[01:50:19.090 --> 01:50:21.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's happened in the United States in the 60s and 70s.
[01:50:22.930 --> 01:50:27.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Eventually, if anything is going to change, it's going to have to be from within, for the most part.
[01:50:27.490 --> 01:50:31.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Obviously, we can exert a lot of pressure here, and other countries can, you know, exert a lot of pressure.
[01:50:32.050 --> 01:50:34.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: But things have to change there.
[01:50:35.330 --> 01:50:41.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: There have to be organized demonstrations, primarily on the Black side.
[01:50:41.450 --> 01:50:48.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: But certainly, the White side would move this forward a lot faster if something was happening on a continual basis.
[01:50:49.330 --> 01:50:51.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: At what point do you think things will start to change?
[01:50:52.270 --> 01:50:57.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, Manuel, things were really getting really bad in South Africa in the early 80s.
[01:50:57.590 --> 01:51:02.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, there's increasing opposition and dissatisfaction with, you know, the whole system that exists in South Africa.
[01:51:02.670 --> 01:51:10.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And as a result, the government reacted to that whole, you know, expression of, you know, what the people felt by imposing a state of emergency.
[01:51:10.430 --> 01:51:11.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it still exists.
[01:51:12.750 --> 01:51:15.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: And what does that state of emergency allow them to do?
[01:51:15.450 --> 01:51:18.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It allows them to do absolutely nothing.
[01:51:19.110 --> 01:51:20.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm talking about the government.
[01:51:20.750 --> 01:51:21.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, the government.
[01:51:21.470 --> 01:51:22.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[01:51:23.030 --> 01:51:39.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It allows the government to suppress all opposition to apartheid, to quell any internal disorder, anything that's viewed as subversive or in opposition to government policy, as met with imprisonment or harassment, house arrest, etc.
[01:51:39.970 --> 01:51:53.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The state of emergency's purpose is to impose order in South Africa by whatever means necessary, and that may include, you know, shooting women and children, which has happened, whatever means is required.
[01:51:55.090 --> 01:52:00.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, the president at the moment has made a few changes, and these are not, I believe, terribly genuine.
[01:52:00.470 --> 01:52:03.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's as a result of international pressure.
[01:52:04.310 --> 01:52:08.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But the ironic thing is that I don't think it's really, you know, appeasing the Black people of South Africa.
[01:52:09.070 --> 01:52:10.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They know exactly what the situation is.
[01:52:11.150 --> 01:52:14.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They know that, you know, President de Klerk's motives are not that genuine.
[01:52:14.710 --> 01:52:22.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, I don't know how long it's going to, you know, quell, you know, their unrest or dissatisfaction.
[01:52:22.450 --> 01:52:23.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, let's take another call.
[01:52:23.870 --> 01:52:24.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:52:24.990 --> 01:52:25.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[01:52:25.970 --> 01:52:27.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is this WBAI?
[01:52:27.170 --> 01:52:27.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what it is.
[01:52:27.790 --> 01:52:28.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're on the air.
[01:52:28.630 --> 01:52:29.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[01:52:31.690 --> 01:52:45.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I wanted to ask about something that a previous caller had addressed, and that is about support among the African-American community for Mr. Demmer's cause.
[01:52:46.090 --> 01:52:48.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll hang up and listen to an answer.
[01:52:48.630 --> 01:52:49.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[01:52:51.330 --> 01:52:52.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Did you understand the question?
[01:52:52.910 --> 01:52:53.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I understand that.
[01:52:53.670 --> 01:52:57.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would, I just appreciate any support, you know, that people could give.
[01:52:58.430 --> 01:53:18.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think the best thing, if they'd be interested in, you know, expressing support would be to contact Lucas Gutentag, G-U-T-T-E-N-T-A-G, and he's with the ACLU in New York, and, you know, submit any, you know, letters of support or, you know, any assistance that you'd like to give.
[01:53:19.130 --> 01:53:24.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Address it to Lucas Gutentag, the ACLU, and I'm sure the number would be in the phone book.
[01:53:24.510 --> 01:53:27.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, you don't have the address for the number?
[01:53:27.070 --> 01:53:29.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I don't have the address, but I have the telephone number.
[01:53:29.350 --> 01:53:30.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, give out the telephone number.
[01:53:30.390 --> 01:53:33.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: 1-2-9-4-4-9-800.
[01:53:34.850 --> 01:53:42.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, and a lot of people calling that, offering support of any kind, would certainly be helpful to your cause, I imagine.
[01:53:42.970 --> 01:53:47.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, they would be able to tell you where you can best channel your energies.
[01:53:48.250 --> 01:53:54.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I know a lot of people are upset about this, but we're frustrated, because what do we do?
[01:53:54.550 --> 01:53:55.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, we're here in New York.
[01:53:55.650 --> 01:54:09.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think what people, you know, that American citizens could really do is, you know, contact the congressman and, you know, tell them about, you know, what I'm going through, my plight and people and my position.
[01:54:10.590 --> 01:54:14.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And maybe, you know, go through the system that you have in America.
[01:54:15.010 --> 01:54:20.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, everyone has a congressman in their area, and if they could, you know, just let their congressman know about what's going on.
[01:54:21.210 --> 01:54:28.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: And don't stop there, you know, because if we help Craig here, if Craig wins his battle, okay, that's something.
[01:54:28.330 --> 01:54:32.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: But there's still the system over there, which needs to be changed.
[01:54:32.470 --> 01:54:35.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: Would you say the same methods would work for that?
[01:54:36.090 --> 01:54:36.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes.
[01:54:36.690 --> 01:54:46.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I mean, I would love, you know, people to advocate, you know, that the American government continues, you know, economic sanctions against South Africa and continues to apply pressure on the South African government.
[01:54:46.530 --> 01:54:55.310]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And people can also write to the newspapers, you know, like the New York Times, the Daily News, New York Post, you know, expressing, you know, their, you know, opposition to apartheid.
[01:54:55.450 --> 01:54:59.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, if they would like, you know, support for my case, that would definitely be appreciated.
[01:55:00.370 --> 01:55:07.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Whatever means, you know, that, you know, people in this democratic government that, you know, exists in America, you know, have at their disposal, you know, to use it.
[01:55:07.930 --> 01:55:14.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Because, you know, it's a very, I know this sounds terribly corny, but, you know, this is a very, very, you know, it's a wonderful situation that we have in America.
[01:55:14.930 --> 01:55:20.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's a democracy, and people have channels and avenues to go through, you know, to express, you know, however they feel.
[01:55:20.710 --> 01:55:23.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And this doesn't exist in many countries in the world.
[01:55:24.630 --> 01:55:37.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, before this came to a head, and let's say that things work in your favor and you're able to stay here, what have you been doing and what will you do to counter apartheid in New York?
[01:55:38.530 --> 01:55:42.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I've been working as a social worker throughout this time, you know, in New York.
[01:55:42.370 --> 01:55:47.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I've been working with some organizations, you know, the World Council of Churches.
[01:55:47.390 --> 01:55:55.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I will do my best, and I'm doing right now all I can to educate people in America about the conditions in South Africa, what's going on.
[01:55:56.110 --> 01:55:59.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Because I feel that the Black people have absolutely no voice in South Africa.
[01:56:00.750 --> 01:56:04.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I feel, you know, I'm going to try and do all I can to give them a voice.
[01:56:05.030 --> 01:56:09.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I know I'm a White person, and I really cannot, you know, feel exactly what they're going through.
[01:56:09.890 --> 01:56:11.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But it's better than nothing.
[01:56:11.550 --> 01:56:12.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I feel that they need to be heard.
[01:56:13.210 --> 01:56:16.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think we're just hearing a one-sided story from the South African government lately.
[01:56:16.970 --> 01:56:21.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I'm going to do anything possible I can to just let people know, you know, what's going on in South Africa.
[01:56:22.190 --> 01:56:30.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't mean to press you on this too much, but there are people out there that might say, yeah, you know, I want to do what Craig is doing and educate people.
[01:56:30.330 --> 01:56:33.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: How specifically do you educate people on South Africa?
[01:56:33.110 --> 01:56:42.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So the best thing they can do, you know, is to, you know, write to the newspapers, you know, expressing, you know, their support, you know, for opposition to apartheid.
[01:56:43.330 --> 01:56:46.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can contact organizations like Trans Africa.
[01:56:47.730 --> 01:56:56.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: This is a wonderful organization in America, and it's like a watchdog organization, and they exclusively monitor the situation in South Africa.
[01:56:57.450 --> 01:57:02.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they have, you know, like news bulletins and newsletters that they publish on South Africa.
[01:57:02.590 --> 01:57:08.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Because if they want to learn more about South Africa, an organization like Trans Africa would be of assistance to them.
[01:57:09.370 --> 01:57:11.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's headed by Randall Robinson.
[01:57:13.150 --> 01:57:22.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Another great source, if they want to learn more about South Africa, is a television program, which is on the air every week, called South Africa Now.
[01:57:22.290 --> 01:57:23.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I was on it a couple of weeks ago.
[01:57:25.290 --> 01:57:28.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And this is on Channel 13 on Saturdays.
[01:57:28.430 --> 01:57:32.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's a half-hour program, usually at 12, 13, noontime.
[01:57:32.030 --> 01:57:33.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who produces that?
[01:57:33.210 --> 01:57:34.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that produced here in New York?
[01:57:34.370 --> 01:57:35.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Produced in New York.
[01:57:35.650 --> 01:57:42.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And it's aired throughout America and Zambia, and I think Mozambique as well.
[01:57:42.550 --> 01:57:48.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And if, you know, people want to learn more about South Africa, you know, firsthand or on the TV, you know, that's a great source.
[01:57:49.430 --> 01:57:50.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, let's take another call.
[01:57:50.970 --> 01:57:52.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[01:57:52.270 --> 01:57:52.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[01:57:55.050 --> 01:57:55.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, it's you.
[01:57:55.910 --> 01:57:56.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:57:56.570 --> 01:57:57.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, hi.
[01:57:57.090 --> 01:58:11.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyway, I'd like to know, I'm very upset about the censorship in the newspapers, and so for me this is a great opportunity to hear from a White man, even though he was university trained, as he put it, in South Africa.
[01:58:11.770 --> 01:58:15.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: What exactly is the inertia?
[01:58:17.090 --> 01:58:19.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is it in the White community?
[01:58:19.390 --> 01:58:21.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know it's a minority in South Africa.
[01:58:21.970 --> 01:58:27.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is it that they will feel they'll have to give up to abolish the system?
[01:58:27.650 --> 01:58:32.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I hear it's predominantly Afrikaners who run the government, this and that.
[01:58:32.730 --> 01:58:47.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it seems to me, here in America, it's only the oppressed community screaming and the external forces that have even brought this into examination, the idea that apartheid is wrong.
[01:58:47.810 --> 01:58:57.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: It seems to me that there must be a community of Whites there that would have been content to just let the thing go along.
[01:58:58.210 --> 01:59:03.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I'm asking him, because our newspapers are censored, what is it...
[01:59:03.490 --> 01:59:10.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, is there a middle-class White community, or is it all just leaders, and then you have this slave class?
[01:59:10.310 --> 01:59:28.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, what is it, for our understanding here, because we won't get it to the newspapers, what are the Whites in South Africa that aren't in the government structure, that aren't the extremely wealthy, what is it that they're going to be reluctant about to abolish apartheid?
[01:59:28.590 --> 01:59:29.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll just hang up.
[01:59:29.490 --> 01:59:29.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a great show.
[01:59:30.430 --> 01:59:31.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:59:31.970 --> 01:59:33.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's a very good question.
[01:59:34.350 --> 01:59:38.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The Whites in South Africa enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world.
[01:59:38.470 --> 01:59:39.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Absolutely one of the highest.
[01:59:39.830 --> 01:59:41.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And that's because of the system.
[01:59:42.070 --> 01:59:46.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The Black people are, you know, used to further the interests of the White people.
[01:59:47.070 --> 01:59:48.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's just as simple as that.
[01:59:48.330 --> 01:59:53.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The White people in South Africa are given so many different perks that Black people are not given.
[01:59:54.450 --> 01:59:58.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'll give you an example, like, you know, wage differentials.
[01:59:58.350 --> 02:00:07.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: In South Africa, social workers and teachers, if they're White, earn much higher salaries than Black people, regardless of their education.
[02:00:07.990 --> 02:00:14.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can have the same degree from the same university, but just because they are Black or White, they would be given a different salary.
[02:00:14.710 --> 02:00:17.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: White people have much better social services.
[02:00:17.490 --> 02:00:20.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: White children do not have to pay for their schooling.
[02:00:20.510 --> 02:00:24.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Black children do, and for an inferior schooling as well, I may add.
[02:00:25.630 --> 02:00:28.690]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There's a very... there's a lot of support, you know, for Whites.
[02:00:29.130 --> 02:00:30.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, there are lots of perks.
[02:00:31.090 --> 02:00:33.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The government gives assistance to Whites.
[02:00:33.550 --> 02:00:41.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They just have such a great system set up to benefit the White people by oppressing the Black people.
[02:00:42.430 --> 02:00:46.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, the Black people are the ones that are paying for the system set up for the White people.
[02:00:46.970 --> 02:00:49.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, it's interesting mentioning the education.
[02:00:49.290 --> 02:01:12.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: In one of the propaganda tapes that I got from South Africa recently, they were going over the test scores of Whites versus Blacks, and they were noticing with mock dismay that the Black scores seem to be getting lower and lower, and this could only be attributable to all the unrest and the fact that people are paying more attention to throwing stones and to improving their grades,
[02:01:12.130 --> 02:01:14.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: and, of course, it's only going to hurt them in the long run.
[02:01:14.370 --> 02:01:14.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sure.
[02:01:15.210 --> 02:01:19.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: They, you know, what's funny is they were sounding so incredibly honest, open and honest.
[02:01:19.650 --> 02:01:20.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, we have a problem here.
[02:01:20.710 --> 02:01:21.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: We must acknowledge it.
[02:01:22.070 --> 02:01:27.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's too bad these people just don't realize, you know, what is beneficial to them and what will hurt them in the long run.
[02:01:28.090 --> 02:01:31.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, if the situation wasn't so tragic, you would laugh.
[02:01:31.830 --> 02:01:36.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It is, which makes it so ironic that they're publishing a newsletter and saying, oh, there's a problem.
[02:01:36.210 --> 02:01:37.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, why don't they change it?
[02:01:37.270 --> 02:01:39.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Why don't they just give, you know, all...
[02:01:39.230 --> 02:01:41.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We have separate education departments in South Africa.
[02:01:42.130 --> 02:01:44.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We don't have just one department of education, like in America.
[02:01:44.990 --> 02:01:52.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: We have a department of education for Whites, a department of education for Indians, a department of education for colors, a department of education for Africans.
[02:01:52.550 --> 02:01:53.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Now, this is quite mind-boggling.
[02:01:54.010 --> 02:01:58.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And each department of education is given a different amount of money for education of the children.
[02:01:58.810 --> 02:02:01.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The Whites are given the most, and the Blacks are given the least.
[02:02:01.790 --> 02:02:03.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Indians are given more than the Black people.
[02:02:04.610 --> 02:02:05.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, this is the way it's set up.
[02:02:05.990 --> 02:02:09.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: What is your prediction as to what's going to happen there?
[02:02:11.510 --> 02:02:14.870]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I've been waiting for this time bomb to go off for a couple of years now.
[02:02:15.250 --> 02:02:19.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: With a state of emergency, they've managed to keep things under control by all these horrific means.
[02:02:20.730 --> 02:02:25.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Now they're using a slightly different tactic, which is making these few changes.
[02:02:27.010 --> 02:02:32.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They're going to hope that it's going to appease the Black people temporarily and also gain them international favor.
[02:02:33.510 --> 02:02:36.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: How long this is going to work remains to be seen.
[02:02:37.030 --> 02:02:40.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I know for a fact that the Black people are regarding these changes with a lot of caution.
[02:02:41.210 --> 02:02:44.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And they do not regard them as terribly genuine or significant.
[02:02:44.930 --> 02:02:49.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I would hope that the international community views it the same way as the Black people view it.
[02:02:49.790 --> 02:02:52.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Because they, after all, are the ones that are most affected by it.
[02:02:54.010 --> 02:03:06.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a South African here in New York, who has chosen not to enlist in the draft as every White South African must do.
[02:03:06.770 --> 02:03:09.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: And as a result, he faces six years in prison.
[02:03:10.210 --> 02:03:11.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: He doesn't want to go back to South Africa.
[02:03:12.150 --> 02:03:21.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: The United States government is on the verge of forcing him to go back because they do not recognize his status as a political refugee.
[02:03:22.910 --> 02:03:27.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I believe that decision, if it does go against you, could come as early as May?
[02:03:27.990 --> 02:03:28.350]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes.
[02:03:28.550 --> 02:03:30.190]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have a court date set for May.
[02:03:30.310 --> 02:03:33.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have a five-day trial set for May in June, early June.
[02:03:33.970 --> 02:03:34.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see.
[02:03:34.630 --> 02:03:38.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, hopefully we'll be updating people on that as it draws a little closer.
[02:03:39.030 --> 02:03:40.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm going to take a few more phone calls.
[02:03:40.650 --> 02:03:42.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Craig, I want to thank you for staying up so late.
[02:03:42.570 --> 02:03:44.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: I know you have to be at work tomorrow morning.
[02:03:44.270 --> 02:03:45.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's my pleasure.
[02:03:45.170 --> 02:03:45.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: Believe me.
[02:03:45.570 --> 02:03:46.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:03:46.330 --> 02:03:48.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's go through a few more of these calls.
[02:03:48.270 --> 02:03:49.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: You have the switchboard all lit up.
[02:03:49.530 --> 02:03:51.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: Obviously, there's a tremendous interest in this.
[02:03:51.950 --> 02:03:58.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think most people want to know, you know, what is it like going through what you're going through?
[02:03:58.410 --> 02:04:02.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, if not, but for the grace of God, go on.
[02:04:02.250 --> 02:04:03.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, that kind of thing.
[02:04:03.450 --> 02:04:08.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: They want to know what it feels like to be in your shoes, and they can identify with you.
[02:04:09.490 --> 02:04:11.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Emmanuel, it's been so difficult.
[02:04:13.030 --> 02:04:14.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I've had darts many, many times.
[02:04:14.970 --> 02:04:22.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I mean, I've had, you know, the State Department refuse to renew my work authorization while my case was pending.
[02:04:23.230 --> 02:04:24.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I've missed my family terribly.
[02:04:24.910 --> 02:04:26.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I have no home.
[02:04:26.950 --> 02:04:30.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I don't have any of my friends anymore I used to have.
[02:04:30.590 --> 02:04:35.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's very, very difficult, and I don't know how I've stuck with it, but I have.
[02:04:35.350 --> 02:04:39.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, I think that, you know, I have to do something to help those people in South Africa.
[02:04:40.170 --> 02:04:45.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I hate to sound paternalistic or anything, but, you know, people in South Africa, Black people, just do not have a voice.
[02:04:45.950 --> 02:04:51.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And what I'm going through, as I said before, is absolutely nothing to what people have gone through for years in South Africa.
[02:04:52.250 --> 02:05:00.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So I'm hanging in there, you know, and I'm just hoping that, you know, things will turn out okay, and, you know, people recognize that the system in South Africa is really terrible and really needs to be changed.
[02:05:01.310 --> 02:05:02.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, let's take another call.
[02:05:02.550 --> 02:05:02.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:05:04.150 --> 02:05:05.210]  [SPEAKER_23]: Hi, are we over here?
[02:05:05.390 --> 02:05:05.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, you are.
[02:05:05.990 --> 02:05:06.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[02:05:07.810 --> 02:05:09.870]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, I'd say I have to turn my radio off.
[02:05:10.150 --> 02:05:10.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, it would help.
[02:05:11.150 --> 02:05:12.350]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah, I didn't know you were on delay.
[02:05:12.350 --> 02:05:18.050]  [SPEAKER_23]: Are you interested, and you said something about wanting to get your situation publicized.
[02:05:18.310 --> 02:05:24.630]  [SPEAKER_23]: Are you interested in publicizing it to some of the daily newspapers that we have in New York City?
[02:05:25.850 --> 02:05:26.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes.
[02:05:26.750 --> 02:05:30.030]  [SPEAKER_23]: I know some reporters, if you're interested.
[02:05:30.030 --> 02:05:36.930]  [SPEAKER_23]: I know some of them who work for the daily newspapers, and I know one who works for New York Magazine.
[02:05:38.750 --> 02:05:42.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: At the moment, any sort of support would be, you know, grateful.
[02:05:42.970 --> 02:05:51.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I had an article printed on my situation a couple of weeks ago, as you mentioned, Emmanuel in the New York Times, and I've appeared on a couple of television programs.
[02:05:51.890 --> 02:05:55.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But, you know, all the support I can get would be absolutely wonderful.
[02:05:55.610 --> 02:06:00.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, and if people have any contacts, you know, that would be great.
[02:06:00.050 --> 02:06:10.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And if they could, you know, contact Lucas Guttentag at the ACLU at 212-944-9800 with any information, that would be much appreciated.
[02:06:11.570 --> 02:06:12.710]  [SPEAKER_23]: Okay, and what's your name?
[02:06:13.150 --> 02:06:13.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: My name?
[02:06:14.010 --> 02:06:14.310]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah.
[02:06:15.090 --> 02:06:16.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: My name is Craig Demmer.
[02:06:17.130 --> 02:06:22.050]  [SPEAKER_23]: Okay, because I can contact some of the people I know, and maybe they'll be picking it up.
[02:06:22.130 --> 02:06:24.410]  [SPEAKER_23]: But you said you've had something in the New York Times, right?
[02:06:24.590 --> 02:06:26.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That was a couple of weeks ago, yes.
[02:06:26.250 --> 02:06:32.950]  [SPEAKER_23]: I don't have to contact my friend in the Times if you already had something, because they might not want to do someone else's, you know.
[02:06:33.190 --> 02:06:33.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes, yes.
[02:06:34.150 --> 02:06:37.650]  [SPEAKER_23]: Did you hear about a recent decision?
[02:06:38.470 --> 02:06:47.230]  [SPEAKER_23]: It was publicized on many of the Black radio stations in New York about some police officers who were acquitted of killing six Blacks.
[02:06:48.050 --> 02:06:48.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Mm-hmm.
[02:06:48.770 --> 02:06:54.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think Emmanuel, if I'm corrected, stand to be corrected, it was the same situation you mentioned, Emmanuel, in the beginning of the program?
[02:06:54.990 --> 02:07:02.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, the article I read was a policeman acquitted of killing three Blacks, but either there's two situations...
[02:07:02.050 --> 02:07:02.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's the same incident, isn't it?
[02:07:02.610 --> 02:07:04.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think it's the same incident, unless you...
[02:07:04.750 --> 02:07:13.830]  [SPEAKER_23]: That must be a different incident, because this one, they were acquitted a couple of days ago, the one I'm referring to, and this was six Blacks, including a couple of children.
[02:07:15.230 --> 02:07:22.090]  [SPEAKER_23]: And according to the radio stations, the judge said, it's all right to kill Blacks as long as it's within the law.
[02:07:22.430 --> 02:07:24.230]  [SPEAKER_23]: You don't know anything about that then, right?
[02:07:24.230 --> 02:07:32.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: No, I don't know anything about that, but all I do know is that, you know, since 1985, you know, over a thousand, you know, men, women, and children have been killed or tortured in South Africa.
[02:07:33.170 --> 02:07:38.330]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, you know, these reports, you know, in the media the last couple of weeks come as no surprise to me.
[02:07:38.870 --> 02:07:39.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Absolutely no surprise.
[02:07:40.370 --> 02:07:49.870]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, because that was something that I was hoping you might know something about, because, unfortunately, the radio just does, like, little sound bites, and they don't really give you ample information.
[02:07:49.870 --> 02:07:54.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The fact that I don't know just shows how effective government censorship in South Africa is working.
[02:07:55.230 --> 02:08:11.490]  [SPEAKER_23]: Now, also, I'm wondering, have any of your friends or also people you were growing up with or people you were friendly with before you left, do you know if they were interested also in leaving South Africa, as you had done, or were they too afraid to,
[02:08:11.670 --> 02:08:13.650]  [SPEAKER_23]: or were they not as liberal, or what?
[02:08:13.650 --> 02:08:22.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, most of my friends were pretty liberal, um, at university, but I think a lot of them had an investment in remaining in South Africa.
[02:08:22.370 --> 02:08:24.170]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, White people have a great system there.
[02:08:24.490 --> 02:08:30.010]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, you know, you graduate from university and you have a very cushy, wonderful career plan, you know, that lies ahead.
[02:08:30.270 --> 02:08:31.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You're well-paid, et cetera.
[02:08:32.030 --> 02:08:40.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, most of my friends studied law or medicine, and they knew that they could just go and serve their two years and come out and then start a wonderful career and live a very privileged existence.
[02:08:41.050 --> 02:08:43.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So they would have to give up a lot, you know, for their beliefs.
[02:08:44.250 --> 02:08:47.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I don't judge anyone, you know, I'm in no position to do that.
[02:08:47.290 --> 02:08:48.210]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, everyone's different.
[02:08:48.670 --> 02:08:51.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But none of my friends, um, you know, did what I did.
[02:08:52.110 --> 02:08:56.810]  [SPEAKER_23]: But I'm curious, if you got sent back to South Africa and you were imprisoned, right?
[02:08:57.030 --> 02:08:57.210]  [SPEAKER_23]: Mm-hmm.
[02:08:57.410 --> 02:09:01.750]  [SPEAKER_23]: This may sound, if this is too sensitive, you don't have to answer it, but do you think you'd be tortured?
[02:09:02.670 --> 02:09:13.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, there have been reports, you know, documented cases of torture and solitary confinement, um, for people, you know, that have been imprisoned as regards, uh, their opposition to apartheid.
[02:09:13.550 --> 02:09:22.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I would not, I would not like to, you know, test the, uh, authorities in South Africa, but it's entirely likely that they could do something like that.
[02:09:22.570 --> 02:09:25.410]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, these people have tortured and killed children.
[02:09:25.610 --> 02:09:26.170]  [SPEAKER_23]: I know.
[02:09:26.310 --> 02:09:29.270]  [SPEAKER_23]: I was just wondering, though, if you thought that they might do that to you.
[02:09:29.490 --> 02:09:35.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Uh, I'm desperately afraid that they could do something like that because I've been very public in my denunciation of the South African government.
[02:09:35.430 --> 02:09:40.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And I'm now, you know, doing something to, um, destroy the image they're trying to create.
[02:09:40.810 --> 02:09:48.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: And whether, whether they do or not, uh, it's a torture of another form, you know, a very subtle torture where you just keep wondering to yourself, what's, what are they going to do to me?
[02:09:48.950 --> 02:09:52.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, and they don't have to do anything, uh, for the torture to be very effective.
[02:09:52.630 --> 02:10:04.670]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, I have, you know, a very blatant, uh, you know, prosecution available, which is I'll be imprisoned, and then I have all sorts of other things like harassment, um, you know, limited job opportunities, you know, how to go back to South Africa.
[02:10:05.110 --> 02:10:08.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I'm not, I wouldn't be very employable by the civil service.
[02:10:08.430 --> 02:10:14.430]  [SPEAKER_23]: I know, the only thing I was thinking is, because I know how irrational, um, uh, politicians can be.
[02:10:14.930 --> 02:10:30.650]  [SPEAKER_23]: Would you, do you think it's conceivable that they might, um, uh, try to, uh, have you publicized as a, as an attempt to overthrow the government, or, or as a possible, um, spy, or just something irrational like that?
[02:10:31.110 --> 02:10:33.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, you know, the government of South Africa is very irrational.
[02:10:33.990 --> 02:10:36.890]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It's very hard to understand their whole motive, you know, in operating.
[02:10:37.470 --> 02:10:43.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But, um, they, you know, they probably are regarding me now as a thorn in their side.
[02:10:43.290 --> 02:10:48.650]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And, you know, that alone is enough grounds, you know, for them to, you know, put me in jail, place me under house arrest.
[02:10:48.850 --> 02:10:52.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, God, you know, knows they've, they've done with things to people on this grounds.
[02:10:53.110 --> 02:10:55.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: I believe the caller asked if they've hassled your family in any way.
[02:10:55.710 --> 02:11:00.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, my father is, um, he's employed by the South African military.
[02:11:00.850 --> 02:11:03.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, he serves in the Air Force in a civilian capacity.
[02:11:03.890 --> 02:11:11.590]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And he, I spoke to my mom recently, and she said that he has been harassed by some colleagues who heard about my case.
[02:11:12.170 --> 02:11:13.730]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And that's one of my fears.
[02:11:13.930 --> 02:11:18.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I really didn't want, you know, to go public in South Africa because I knew my family would be affected.
[02:11:19.550 --> 02:11:22.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not, not easy.
[02:11:22.850 --> 02:11:23.910]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, I don't want that to happen.
[02:11:24.130 --> 02:11:26.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let me just throw a theoretical, uh, situation out to you.
[02:11:27.150 --> 02:11:36.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: If, uh, if somehow strings were pulled and, uh, you were given a promise that you could go back to South Africa and not face any jail time, what would you do?
[02:11:38.350 --> 02:11:40.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I quite, I don't know.
[02:11:41.010 --> 02:11:41.830]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I really don't know.
[02:11:42.350 --> 02:11:45.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, it'd be great I wouldn't be sentenced to jail.
[02:11:45.450 --> 02:11:46.390]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, that'd be wonderful.
[02:11:46.530 --> 02:11:48.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I could have my friends and family again.
[02:11:48.110 --> 02:11:52.110]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, but then I'd also, you know, I'd face that persecution.
[02:11:52.110 --> 02:11:53.370]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'd face, you know, the harassment.
[02:11:53.670 --> 02:11:55.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: It'd be very difficult for me to get a job.
[02:11:55.930 --> 02:12:04.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, there are lots of people in South Africa that are very conservative and, uh, are definitely, you know, um, an opposition to, you know, my, you know, views.
[02:12:04.750 --> 02:12:05.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, White people.
[02:12:05.950 --> 02:12:15.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, the whole climate in South Africa would not be very, very, you know, comfortable, you know, if I went back just amongst people that I know and family and, and, you know, work people.
[02:12:18.110 --> 02:12:19.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: Even if there was no harassment.
[02:12:19.670 --> 02:12:21.770]  [CRAIGDEMER]: There was no prison sentence that awaited me.
[02:12:22.270 --> 02:12:24.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Uh, there would, there would, there would probably be something else.
[02:12:24.770 --> 02:12:33.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, you know, um, recently, last, uh, a couple of months ago, a South African came over and received political asylum, similar in my, similar case to mine.
[02:12:34.090 --> 02:12:38.750]  [CRAIGDEMER]: And he received asylum on the grounds that he faced persecution if he went back home.
[02:12:39.250 --> 02:12:40.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, and the work area, you know,
[02:12:49.040 --> 02:12:49.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: He was what?
[02:12:50.200 --> 02:12:51.240]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He was granted asylum.
[02:12:51.680 --> 02:12:53.140]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, he was granted asylum.
[02:12:53.140 --> 02:13:04.720]  [CRAIGDEMER]: He went to the asylum a couple of months ago, um, because, um, he demonstrated that, um, if he returned to South Africa, the civil service would be prejudiced and, you know, placing him in a job because he opposed apartheid.
[02:13:05.200 --> 02:13:10.920]  [CRAIGDEMER]: So, you know, if I went back and, uh, I wouldn't get a prison sentence, I, I would be subject to other forms of persecution.
[02:13:11.240 --> 02:13:13.620]  [SPEAKER_23]: But I'm saying, ironically, if, if the U.S.
[02:13:13.760 --> 02:13:19.840]  [SPEAKER_23]: didn't grant you asylum, you might, uh, consider just going to Canada and starting the process all over again.
[02:13:20.000 --> 02:13:20.920]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That's a possibility.
[02:13:20.920 --> 02:13:22.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: Just don't go back.
[02:13:22.060 --> 02:13:23.040]  [SPEAKER_23]: Just because the U.S. says you don't.
[02:13:23.620 --> 02:13:29.260]  [SPEAKER_23]: You can go to Canada, and I guess from Canada you can possibly, uh, go to, uh, Mexico.
[02:13:29.560 --> 02:13:32.880]  [SPEAKER_23]: I mean, just keep going, uh, if, if the government don't grant you asylum.
[02:13:33.040 --> 02:13:36.260]  [SPEAKER_23]: But, uh, whatever you do, don't feel compelled that you have to go back.
[02:13:36.360 --> 02:13:39.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: I'm sure you could be creative about, you know, your survival.
[02:13:39.760 --> 02:13:42.540]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yeah, you know, I, I'm just trying to take one day at a time.
[02:13:42.680 --> 02:13:45.560]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You know, those are alternatives in the future that I could look at.
[02:13:45.800 --> 02:13:50.700]  [SPEAKER_23]: Um, definitely consider that because you, when you think about it, you literally don't have to go back.
[02:13:51.260 --> 02:13:58.340]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, um, usually, when you go through deportation hearings, you know, the State Department orders you to go back to the country where you came from.
[02:13:58.520 --> 02:14:00.500]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But sometimes you have, um, a choice.
[02:14:00.680 --> 02:14:02.920]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You can designate a country that you wish to go to.
[02:14:03.360 --> 02:14:06.200]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, that is, like, something left in the future.
[02:14:06.240 --> 02:14:07.380]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I cannot deal with that yet.
[02:14:07.600 --> 02:14:13.580]  [CRAIGDEMER]: My, my aim now is just to fight to stay in America and hopefully, you know, spread the word about what's happening in South Africa.
[02:14:14.100 --> 02:14:15.380]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm doing this for a purpose.
[02:14:15.560 --> 02:14:17.140]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I want to educate people, you know.
[02:14:17.540 --> 02:14:18.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: All right, good luck.
[02:14:18.220 --> 02:14:21.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I'll call my friend at New York Magazine.
[02:14:21.280 --> 02:14:22.060]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Thank you very much.
[02:14:22.160 --> 02:14:22.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you.
[02:14:23.000 --> 02:14:23.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[02:14:24.140 --> 02:14:35.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if, uh, if people listening who have those kind of connections can do all they can, not just for, uh, for this case, but for anything that, uh, that requires, uh, justice.
[02:14:36.340 --> 02:14:52.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, uh, whether it's the, the South African, uh, issue in, in general, whether it's, uh, the AIDS issue, whether it's, uh, anything that involves justice, involves thinking, that involves action of some sort because, uh, we're the ones that are out there.
[02:14:52.500 --> 02:14:53.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're the ones that can make the difference.
[02:14:54.700 --> 02:14:57.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, we're the ones that have to make the difference.
[02:15:02.480 --> 02:15:07.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, I'm going to, uh, give Craig a chance to, uh, to get a drink of water or something.
[02:15:07.600 --> 02:15:09.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because we've been going for quite a while here.
[02:15:09.420 --> 02:15:11.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have about another 16 minutes.
[02:15:11.820 --> 02:15:13.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, so we're going to take a three-minute break.
[02:15:13.980 --> 02:15:17.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to go right back through the phones, and hopefully we'll get to everybody who's waiting.
[02:15:17.740 --> 02:15:32.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a South African here in New York, who is a draft evader, a South African draft evader, facing six years in prison if he is sent back to South Africa, as the United States government is currently trying to do.
[02:15:32.720 --> 02:15:33.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: We'll be right back.
[02:16:08.060 --> 02:16:09.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll
[02:16:14.260 --> 02:16:16.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: be right back.
[02:18:11.750 --> 02:18:12.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll be right back.
[02:18:34.350 --> 02:18:37.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Those are the jam, or those were the jam.
[02:18:37.530 --> 02:18:38.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: I guess they broke up now.
[02:18:39.010 --> 02:18:40.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: A song called Running on the Spot.
[02:18:41.370 --> 02:18:48.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: And again, like I'm always doing, if you were paying attention to the lyrics, you would hear some neat stuff in there.
[02:18:48.590 --> 02:18:50.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's why I like music that means something.
[02:18:51.370 --> 02:18:57.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, music always means something in itself, but it's always good when there's that extra bonus of meaningful words.
[02:18:57.850 --> 02:19:01.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I was hoping we'd make real progress, but it seems we have lost the power.
[02:19:01.430 --> 02:19:05.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Any tiny step of advancement is like a raindrop falling into the ocean.
[02:19:05.490 --> 02:19:06.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're running on the spot.
[02:19:07.050 --> 02:19:08.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Always have, always will.
[02:19:08.910 --> 02:19:12.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're just the next generation of emotionally crippled.
[02:19:13.670 --> 02:19:16.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: And hopefully we're a bit better than that.
[02:19:16.790 --> 02:19:17.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think we are.
[02:19:17.670 --> 02:19:22.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think we're bringing things into the limelight that deserve to be there.
[02:19:23.190 --> 02:19:24.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're realizing our potential.
[02:19:24.970 --> 02:19:28.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're realizing the power that people have.
[02:19:28.450 --> 02:19:34.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Whether it's people in New York, whether it's people in Cape Town, whether it's people in any corner of the world.
[02:19:34.810 --> 02:19:36.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: We can make a difference.
[02:19:36.030 --> 02:19:37.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: We can change things.
[02:19:37.890 --> 02:19:39.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we just have to start.
[02:19:41.530 --> 02:19:45.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's something that I'd like to be able to address in this and future programs.
[02:19:46.110 --> 02:19:52.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we are speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a draft evader from South Africa here in New York.
[02:19:52.490 --> 02:19:53.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we only have a few more minutes left.
[02:19:54.070 --> 02:19:56.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our phone number is 279-3400.
[02:19:57.090 --> 02:19:58.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: Craig, you ready for some more calls?
[02:19:58.630 --> 02:19:58.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yep.
[02:19:59.110 --> 02:20:00.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, let's go to them.
[02:20:00.310 --> 02:20:00.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:20:01.430 --> 02:20:01.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi there.
[02:20:02.410 --> 02:20:03.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, Craig.
[02:20:03.350 --> 02:20:03.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, Manuel.
[02:20:03.790 --> 02:20:10.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: I wish to offer my support as a Vietnam-era draft resistor who faced imprisonment here.
[02:20:11.490 --> 02:20:12.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's see.
[02:20:13.810 --> 02:20:30.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: You haven't mentioned it, but there is an organization in South Africa called the End Conscription Campaign, an organization of White draft resistors that had been banned under the emergency and unbanned itself a few months ago and is now once again functioning openly in South Africa.
[02:20:32.530 --> 02:20:35.810]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm not too sure if they are illegitimate.
[02:20:36.870 --> 02:20:40.230]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I did know that they were banned, and I'm not too sure if they've been unbanned.
[02:20:40.450 --> 02:20:41.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I don't know about that.
[02:20:41.650 --> 02:20:42.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Unbanned them.
[02:20:42.230 --> 02:20:43.090]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They unbanned themselves.
[02:20:43.430 --> 02:20:44.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They unbanned... well, and...
[02:20:44.630 --> 02:20:45.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, good for them.
[02:20:45.910 --> 02:20:47.430]  [CRAIGDEMER]: ...that doesn't really mean to be much in South Africa, unfortunately.
[02:20:47.870 --> 02:20:48.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: You don't unban yourself.
[02:20:49.130 --> 02:20:49.990]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The government banned...
[02:20:49.990 --> 02:20:52.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I think they decided to...
[02:20:52.270 --> 02:20:57.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think the group had sort of a rebellious sense when they did that.
[02:20:57.330 --> 02:20:57.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that correct?
[02:20:58.230 --> 02:20:58.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Exactly.
[02:20:58.850 --> 02:21:00.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sounds like something the yippies would have done.
[02:21:00.050 --> 02:21:00.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[02:21:00.850 --> 02:21:05.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're... I know they're supported by the War Resistence League here in New York and other groups in the U.S.
[02:21:06.490 --> 02:21:09.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Also, Emmanuel, you asked about the U.S.
[02:21:09.830 --> 02:21:12.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: high-technology corporations, didn't you, a while back?
[02:21:12.610 --> 02:21:12.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[02:21:12.750 --> 02:21:12.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[02:21:12.950 --> 02:21:14.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know I'm interested in that kind of stuff.
[02:21:14.190 --> 02:21:14.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some information.
[02:21:14.710 --> 02:21:16.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Information on the list may be a bit dated.
[02:21:16.730 --> 02:21:24.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: But essentially, apartheid can't be maintained without the cooperation of U.S.
[02:21:25.150 --> 02:21:31.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: and British and other, you know, multinationals and conglomerates, especially the high-technology companies.
[02:21:31.610 --> 02:21:41.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: For example, you know, the passes, you know, the identity cards have photographs on them taken with Polaroid cameras.
[02:21:42.030 --> 02:21:45.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Although Polaroid, I think, officially isn't dealing with South Africa anymore.
[02:21:46.250 --> 02:21:48.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: They, you know, they still probably are.
[02:21:49.010 --> 02:21:54.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: IBM, through a ruse, sold off their South African subsidiary.
[02:21:54.910 --> 02:22:00.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: So now there's simply, instead of a subsidiary, there's simply another company in South Africa that buys and imports IBM computers.
[02:22:01.050 --> 02:22:05.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have an IBM computer and you need parts for it, you can still buy it in South Africa.
[02:22:06.130 --> 02:22:10.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Controlled Data Corporation has a reputation as being a liberal company here in America.
[02:22:10.710 --> 02:22:16.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they have, they've had a gigantic contract with the South African Education Department.
[02:22:16.390 --> 02:22:29.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I'm not sure which part of the South African Education Department, but they had developed a massive educational system to essentially culturally reinforce apartheid in South Africa.
[02:22:29.890 --> 02:22:33.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the software that was developed in conjunction with that, they're marketing here in the U.S.
[02:22:35.470 --> 02:22:39.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can go on listing one day after another of major U.S.
[02:22:40.070 --> 02:22:44.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: high-tech corporations without whose help apartheid would not stand.
[02:22:46.230 --> 02:22:47.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, I'm glad you did.
[02:22:47.470 --> 02:22:49.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I hope other people find more.
[02:22:49.950 --> 02:22:55.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, I had a meeting on this three, four years ago that I was at.
[02:22:56.130 --> 02:22:59.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I know there are people who are at least doing heavy research into this area.
[02:23:00.450 --> 02:23:02.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, I hope you share that with us.
[02:23:02.030 --> 02:23:05.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Send it in to WBAI or just publicize it in any way you can.
[02:23:05.390 --> 02:23:05.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Try it.
[02:23:06.170 --> 02:23:07.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's, that's what we have to do.
[02:23:07.930 --> 02:23:09.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, we have to stay educated.
[02:23:09.150 --> 02:23:10.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have to keep in communication.
[02:23:10.710 --> 02:23:11.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks very much for calling.
[02:23:11.690 --> 02:23:11.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good luck.
[02:23:11.910 --> 02:23:12.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:23:13.230 --> 02:23:14.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[02:23:14.390 --> 02:23:14.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:23:15.450 --> 02:23:16.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[02:23:17.490 --> 02:23:18.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is anyone there?
[02:23:19.750 --> 02:23:20.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: Another one fell asleep.
[02:23:21.310 --> 02:23:22.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, well, I guess it happens.
[02:23:23.190 --> 02:23:23.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good morning.
[02:23:24.530 --> 02:23:24.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[02:23:25.010 --> 02:23:25.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:23:26.390 --> 02:23:27.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[02:23:27.870 --> 02:23:28.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I almost fell asleep.
[02:23:29.030 --> 02:23:30.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, well, I'm glad you didn't.
[02:23:31.250 --> 02:23:33.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I wanted to ask, um, was it Brett?
[02:23:34.590 --> 02:23:35.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Craig.
[02:23:35.470 --> 02:23:35.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pardon?
[02:23:36.050 --> 02:23:36.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Craig Demmer.
[02:23:36.710 --> 02:23:37.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[02:23:37.690 --> 02:23:52.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, a few years ago I read about, um, there were a great deal of South African males who were leaving the country because they really felt, like you, that, uh, they were sitting on a powder keg, that they had gone to Britain.
[02:23:52.530 --> 02:23:54.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, some of them had taken their families.
[02:23:54.550 --> 02:23:55.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that still going on?
[02:23:56.150 --> 02:24:07.130]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, that did happen, um, in the 70s, particularly, um, England and, um, um, the Netherlands granted political asylum to people, um, in my position.
[02:24:07.990 --> 02:24:14.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, since then there have been fewer cases, um, documented cases of people applying for political asylum.
[02:24:14.990 --> 02:24:19.450]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I think I was the first one in the 80s, um, to apply for political asylum.
[02:24:19.690 --> 02:24:26.050]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I don't have any documentation on how many people are leaving South Africa, but I'm sure that's an alternative available to people.
[02:24:26.670 --> 02:24:40.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, lots of people have, um, White males have relatives living in England all over the world, and they may have, you know, um, access to, you know, uh, a citizenship of another country, um, by virtue of having relatives living in another country.
[02:24:40.430 --> 02:24:43.290]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, so they don't have to go through a political asylum process.
[02:24:43.590 --> 02:24:50.070]  [CRAIGDEMER]: They can just go to another country because they have, you know, a mother or father or a sister living in England or wherever, or Canada.
[02:24:50.710 --> 02:24:57.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I don't have any family living anywhere but in South Africa, so my only means was by seeking political asylum.
[02:24:58.130 --> 02:25:06.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Plus, I, you know, I think there's a, there's a difference between leaving the country because you're afraid of the powder keg and leaving it because you're disgusted with it.
[02:25:06.530 --> 02:25:06.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Yes.
[02:25:06.990 --> 02:25:07.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, a very big difference.
[02:25:08.050 --> 02:25:09.710]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'd like to think that I'm making a stand.
[02:25:10.290 --> 02:25:12.550]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, uh, I could have gone into exile.
[02:25:12.550 --> 02:25:20.530]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I could have gone to, um, another country, you know, um, maybe England, and I think I would have been received maybe a little bit more warmly than I have been in America.
[02:25:21.210 --> 02:25:27.950]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, and I could have gone through it all very quietly and nothing could have happened and I would have got my, you know, citizenship and lived happily ever after.
[02:25:28.470 --> 02:25:37.250]  [CRAIGDEMER]: But, you know, I've gone through all the legal channels and I've made a stand throughout this whole thing and, you know, I'd like to educate people and make them aware of what's going on in South Africa.
[02:25:37.250 --> 02:25:39.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I'm doing this for a whole purpose, not just for me.
[02:25:40.110 --> 02:25:42.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think you've, you've gotten through to a lot of people tonight.
[02:25:42.550 --> 02:25:43.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: I certainly hope so.
[02:25:43.710 --> 02:25:44.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: Any other questions from our caller?
[02:25:45.510 --> 02:25:46.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, yeah.
[02:25:46.450 --> 02:25:52.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Would it help at all if we sent letters to, you know, places like Citibank or Manufacturer's Hanover to protest the policies?
[02:25:53.430 --> 02:25:54.270]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, sure.
[02:25:54.470 --> 02:26:09.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I mean, I think ideally the best, um, place to send letters would be to your congressman, you know, so that they could bring this up, um, that, you know, sanctions should please continue, you know, against South Africa, um, to place more pressure on the side for the government to change.
[02:26:09.370 --> 02:26:12.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: See, what, what we need, what we all really need is a focus.
[02:26:12.650 --> 02:26:17.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: We need to know who are the companies, who are the organizations that we should be boycotting.
[02:26:17.330 --> 02:26:18.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, look at the Nestle boycott.
[02:26:18.910 --> 02:26:19.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: That worked very well.
[02:26:19.990 --> 02:26:25.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: It worked extremely well because we knew what they were culprits in, and we knew that they were culprits.
[02:26:25.510 --> 02:26:27.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Here, we're not sure, you know, are they divested?
[02:26:27.970 --> 02:26:28.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are they not divested?
[02:26:29.130 --> 02:26:34.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: There, there should be a very clear way of exchanging information so that we know exactly who to target.
[02:26:34.790 --> 02:26:49.150]  [CRAIGDEMER]: The best organization in America is, as I mentioned, TransAfrica, and they're based in Washington, and you could look up their number, and that's run by, uh, Randall Robinson, and, um, they are an organization that monitors the situation in South Africa,
[02:26:49.170 --> 02:26:52.930]  [CRAIGDEMER]: and they publish newsletters, and they're very influential, uh, in Washington.
[02:26:53.710 --> 02:26:59.850]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, and if you, you know, need any information, or any focus, or in any direction, they would be the organization that could help you.
[02:27:00.810 --> 02:27:06.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Craig, how long do you think apartheid would last if, uh, full sanctions were imposed from this country alone?
[02:27:07.030 --> 02:27:08.510]  [CRAIGDEMER]: How long do you think it would last?
[02:27:08.590 --> 02:27:10.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, could it, could it survive without U.S.
[02:27:10.950 --> 02:27:11.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: support?
[02:27:11.430 --> 02:27:23.790]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Well, the situation in South Africa, the economic situation, has deteriorated incredibly since I left, because I know when I talk to my family, they say how things have risen, you know, uh, uh, unemployment's rising, you know, things have really got difficult since,
[02:27:23.790 --> 02:27:37.570]  [CRAIGDEMER]: um, economic sanctions were imposed, and that's why the President de Klerk has been making these few changes, is because of these economic sanctions, and the fact that South Africa is becoming more and more isolated in the international community.
[02:27:37.990 --> 02:27:45.470]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I feel that if we continue these economic sanctions, it will place more pressure on the government to make more changes, and that's the best thing we can hope for.
[02:27:46.210 --> 02:27:47.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, thanks very much for calling, man.
[02:27:47.710 --> 02:27:47.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you.
[02:27:48.370 --> 02:27:52.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, we have time for just one more call, and you are the lucky person.
[02:27:52.150 --> 02:27:52.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[02:27:52.670 --> 02:27:53.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, am I so happy I made it.
[02:27:53.950 --> 02:27:54.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Listen, I have a short comment.
[02:27:55.050 --> 02:28:00.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, I've been joining your program tonight because I'm an insomniac, and I just want to tell you that, just two short comments.
[02:28:00.590 --> 02:28:12.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, when I went to Washington, D.C., to be brief, they fitted me with underwear, and it seemed like the only time people really come together is when they have sex, and it's unfortunate that sex is an act of love, and the human race, after being on the earth for all these thousands of years,
[02:28:13.170 --> 02:28:18.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: doesn't realize that the highest form of human intimacy is love, and sex is an act of love.
[02:28:18.650 --> 02:28:21.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's a shame that Jesus Christ taught this.
[02:28:21.130 --> 02:28:21.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: He taught love.
[02:28:22.090 --> 02:28:25.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Study the scriptures, and the real message of the Bible is this.
[02:28:25.510 --> 02:28:26.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Love your neighbor as yourself.
[02:28:26.950 --> 02:28:30.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do unto others as you want others to do unto you, and we are a brother's keeper.
[02:28:30.670 --> 02:28:38.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or in other words, it's cheaper to be a brother's keeper, because if we all don't come together in the real sense of the word, we're going to perish in our own flames.
[02:28:38.710 --> 02:28:39.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:28:39.370 --> 02:28:43.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that's a very interesting note to end on, and I'm glad you called.
[02:28:43.710 --> 02:28:46.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, Craig, any, uh, any final comments from you?
[02:28:47.070 --> 02:29:01.490]  [CRAIGDEMER]: Um, I would just, like, as I said before, be very grateful for any support that people could come up with by, you know, um, you know, uh, writing to their Congress, local congressman, or contacting the American Civil Liberties Union in New York at 944-9800,
[02:29:01.910 --> 02:29:11.970]  [CRAIGDEMER]: um, or contacting any news media available to them to, you know, uh, spread, you know, the word, you know, about my situation, or, you know, just generally the situation in South Africa.
[02:29:12.150 --> 02:29:13.030]  [CRAIGDEMER]: That would be really wonderful.
[02:29:14.170 --> 02:29:14.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[02:29:14.690 --> 02:29:21.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, again, I want to thank you for, uh, for staying up into the wee hours to, uh, to talk to New York, because that's, uh, pretty much what we've been doing tonight.
[02:29:22.210 --> 02:29:25.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, wish you all the luck in the world as far as your particular case.
[02:29:26.250 --> 02:29:31.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, Craig is, uh, I guess, uh, a draft dodger is what we would call him here in the United States.
[02:29:31.070 --> 02:29:31.610]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I correct you.
[02:29:31.690 --> 02:29:33.630]  [CRAIGDEMER]: I prefer the word draft resister.
[02:29:33.990 --> 02:29:34.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[02:29:34.830 --> 02:29:35.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Draft resister.
[02:29:35.890 --> 02:29:37.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, I guess, uh, that does have a better ring to it.
[02:29:38.370 --> 02:29:43.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, and, uh, he faces six years in jail in South Africa if he is sent back to that country.
[02:29:43.390 --> 02:29:51.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, um, he's, uh, going down that road, so to say, in the United States, a judicial road that, that seems to want to send him back there.
[02:29:52.150 --> 02:29:53.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hopefully that won't happen.
[02:29:53.470 --> 02:30:00.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hopefully he'll, uh, he'll get to stay here in New York and, uh, speak out against the, uh, the sickness going on in South Africa.
[02:30:01.530 --> 02:30:06.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, even more, hopefully something will change real soon over there.
[02:30:07.370 --> 02:30:09.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: I want to thank everybody for, uh, for calling up.
[02:30:09.690 --> 02:30:11.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: I want to thank Craig for, uh, for being with us tonight.
[02:30:12.430 --> 02:30:19.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, um, again, if, uh, if you want to write into WBAI, if you like this program, please, uh, feel free to write in and say so.
[02:30:19.390 --> 02:30:20.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:30:20.810 --> 02:30:26.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our address is, uh, WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[02:30:27.150 --> 02:30:32.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, my thanks to, uh, Tom Whisker, who, uh, has allowed me to fill in for him for the past three weeks.
[02:30:32.610 --> 02:30:36.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: He will be back next week for the weaponry program.
[02:30:36.570 --> 02:30:41.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, uh, he'll tell you all about the, uh, Arts and Crafts Festival, which, uh, is still going on.
[02:30:42.030 --> 02:30:44.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go up there this, uh, this weekend.
[02:30:44.350 --> 02:30:51.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: It'll be the, uh, very last weekend this year for you to make it up to, uh, to the Arts and Crafts Festival.
[02:30:51.550 --> 02:30:54.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's Columbia University Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
[02:30:59.680 --> 02:31:02.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, uh, thanks to everybody who called in.
[02:31:02.120 --> 02:31:04.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: I want to wish everybody a very happy holiday season.
[02:31:05.480 --> 02:31:08.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Remember, stay happy, but also stay conscious.
[02:31:08.060 --> 02:31:14.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's very important that we, uh, not lose sight of those things going on locally and going on around the world.
[02:31:14.540 --> 02:31:15.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: That makes so much of a difference.
[02:31:16.760 --> 02:31:17.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good night.