[00:35.500 --> 01:34.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Old man, your race is run You think it's over, it's only begun A child is born, who has to face The world you're leaving, a dangerous place Listen to the voices, crying to be free Give me the promise that we promised to be Love and understanding are better than a war People just laughing cause they've heard it before Night chills in plenty times Cardboard hotels,
[01:34.840 --> 02:16.240] [SPEAKER_10]: they sleep on the ground Hard choices, how to respond Red or rosy, with a duck at l'orange Listen to the voices, so easy to ignore Hard choices of old folks Scared to walk from the door Living in the shadows And dying in the cold In a city jungle Ain't no place to grow up
[02:35.920 --> 02:59.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Helpless we'll never be Though justice is so hard to see Kindness, yes, that same old song But don't stop singing There's so much strength in kindness
[03:09.610 --> 03:36.510] [SPEAKER_10]: Listen to the voices Trying to be free Can we be the promise Can we be the promise Can we promise to be Love and understanding Better than a war People just laughing Because they've heard it before Listen to the voices
[04:57.780 --> 05:01.200] [SPEAKER_17]: Will John Williams add to his Oscar collection next Monday night?
[05:01.200 --> 05:03.460] [SPEAKER_17]: He has two scores in the running this year.
[05:03.900 --> 05:09.380] [SPEAKER_17]: This weekend, hear all the music in the Oscar race on a soundtrack special hosted by Paul Wonder.
[05:09.740 --> 05:17.800] [SPEAKER_17]: You'll hear Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Born on the Fourth of July, The Little Mermaid, Field of Dreams, and The Fabulous Baker Boys.
[05:18.000 --> 05:23.920] [SPEAKER_17]: Plus, to the Academy Mist, Paul's picks for Best Soundtrack, Glory, and Batman.
[05:24.320 --> 05:27.040] [SPEAKER_17]: All seven scores presented on CD-Disc.
[05:27.040 --> 05:33.240] [SPEAKER_17]: It's a soundtrack overnight special this Saturday into Sunday, March 25th, from 1 a.m.
[05:33.380 --> 05:34.220] [SPEAKER_17]: to 7 a.m.
[05:34.580 --> 05:37.640] [SPEAKER_17]: Only here on WBAI in New York.
[05:59.990 --> 06:09.650] [SPEAKER_01]: The Park Slope United Methodist Church is inviting you to the Central American Festival on Saturday, March 31st at 7.30 p.m., 6th Avenue at 8th Street in Brooklyn.
[06:09.930 --> 06:13.690] [SPEAKER_01]: The Central American Festival, with a focus on challenging U.S.
[06:13.810 --> 06:15.790] [SPEAKER_01]: policy in El Salvador and Nicaragua.
[06:15.790 --> 06:24.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Featured speakers include Reverend David Dyson of the National Labor Committee in support of democracy and human rights in El Salvador, along with the Reverend Finley Schaaf.
[06:25.170 --> 06:31.310] [SPEAKER_01]: There will be Central American food, music, poetry, and crafts, Saturday, March 31st at 7.30 p.m.
[06:31.570 --> 06:33.170] [SPEAKER_01]: at the Park Slope Methodist Church.
[06:33.670 --> 06:38.670] [SPEAKER_01]: This announcement is a public service of WBAI on behalf of the Park Slope Methodist Church.
[06:38.670 --> 06:43.390] [SPEAKER_01]: For more information, call 212-279-0707.
[06:48.990 --> 06:51.510] [SPEAKER_20]: And now, a message from Earth Day.
[06:51.870 --> 06:53.150] [SPEAKER_20]: Which do you prefer?
[06:54.730 --> 06:55.450] [SPEAKER_20]: Or...
[06:55.450 --> 06:57.470] [SPEAKER_20]: How about...
[06:58.550 --> 06:59.270] [SPEAKER_20]: Or...
[06:59.270 --> 07:01.110] [SPEAKER_20]: And what of...
[07:02.070 --> 07:02.790] [SPEAKER_20]: Or...
[07:02.790 --> 07:04.950] [SPEAKER_20]: If you answer...
[07:04.950 --> 07:07.670] [SPEAKER_20]: You could whine like a dog.
[07:08.590 --> 07:11.110] [SPEAKER_20]: Or dial 673-3030.
[07:11.390 --> 07:12.790] [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, 673-3030.
[07:13.250 --> 07:16.430] [SPEAKER_20]: It's your direct line to Earth Day 1990's New York office.
[07:16.650 --> 07:20.290] [SPEAKER_20]: On April 22nd, Earth Day will launch the Decade of the Environment.
[07:20.710 --> 07:23.470] [SPEAKER_20]: With events planned for all five boroughs, we need your help.
[07:23.670 --> 07:27.370] [SPEAKER_20]: Whatever your talents, whether you can organize, mobilize, or get things done.
[07:27.590 --> 07:29.850] [SPEAKER_20]: Help with mailings, phone banks, state entry, transport.
[07:29.850 --> 07:32.290] [SPEAKER_20]: You can make a contribution, even if it's money.
[07:32.970 --> 07:39.610] [SPEAKER_20]: Our offices open seven days a week, so call 673-3030 at 673-3030.
[07:39.850 --> 07:41.610] [SPEAKER_20]: And, of course, bring your friend.
[07:42.570 --> 07:47.290] [SPEAKER_20]: Just because you're a New Yorker doesn't mean you can whine that well.
[07:49.370 --> 07:55.440] [SPEAKER_18]: This is a public service announcement of WBAI on behalf of Earth Day 1990, a non-profit organization.
[08:06.680 --> 08:10.200] [SPEAKER_22]: Did the film Gory raise questions in your mind?
[08:11.620 --> 08:15.240] [SPEAKER_02]: What did Frederick Douglass really have to do with the 54th Massachusetts?
[08:16.420 --> 08:20.780] [SPEAKER_02]: The real 54th Massachusetts didn't have the Harlem Boys Choir to accompany them.
[08:21.080 --> 08:22.700] [SPEAKER_02]: What music did they hear?
[08:24.180 --> 08:26.680] [SPEAKER_02]: What were the women doing while all this was happening?
[08:28.160 --> 08:29.980] [SPEAKER_02]: Who were the contraband?
[08:30.220 --> 08:31.820] [SPEAKER_02]: And how did they get that name?
[08:32.580 --> 08:35.600] [SPEAKER_02]: And who were those guys in the puffy red pants?
[08:36.720 --> 08:42.400] [SPEAKER_22]: Late Wednesday night, early Thursday morning, March 22nd, from 3.30 to 6 a.m.
[08:42.780 --> 08:44.800] [SPEAKER_22]: Cosmic Debris presents...
[08:44.800 --> 08:47.140] [SPEAKER_22]: A Radio Companion to Glory!
[08:47.600 --> 08:54.300] [SPEAKER_22]: With Civil War enthusiast Larry Butler, who portrays members of black regiments in Civil War reenactments.
[08:54.580 --> 08:56.140] [SPEAKER_22]: That's 3.30 a.m.
[08:56.200 --> 08:58.120] [SPEAKER_22]: Thursday, March 22nd.
[08:58.120 --> 09:02.780] [SPEAKER_22]: That's only on listener-sponsored Pacifica Radio, WBAI in New York.
[09:24.750 --> 09:25.770] [SPEAKER_16]: Justice William O.
[09:25.850 --> 09:28.990] [SPEAKER_16]: Douglas was a man whose life screamed out for dramatic interpretation.
[09:29.350 --> 09:31.230] [SPEAKER_16]: Douglas Scott has now put William O.
[09:31.490 --> 09:37.270] [SPEAKER_16]: Douglas on the stage, and one of our finest actors, Len Kerou, is starring as Douglas in Mountain.
[09:38.190 --> 09:48.630] [SPEAKER_16]: WBAI-ers will have an opportunity to see Mountain at a special WBAI preview performance on Thursday night, March 22nd, if you pledge $40 for a pair of tickets.
[09:49.130 --> 10:00.750] [SPEAKER_16]: Following the performance, there will be an open forum on the Douglas legacy, with playwright Scott joined by Norman Siegel of the New York Civil Liberties Union and Edith Tiger of the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee.
[10:00.750 --> 10:12.930] [SPEAKER_16]: Call WBAI during business hours, 279-0707, for information about attending the WBAI performance of Mountain, celebrating the life of Justice William O.
[10:13.010 --> 10:13.270] [SPEAKER_16]: Douglas.
[10:13.630 --> 10:17.290] [SPEAKER_16]: The night is Thursday, March 22nd, at the Lucille Lortel Theatre.
[10:17.630 --> 10:19.750] [SPEAKER_16]: Be a part of this theatre adventure.
[10:36.940 --> 10:51.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Chair up my brothers, chair up my sisters, chair up my mama to lord, chair up my father.
[10:52.460 --> 10:53.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Let me sing.
[10:53.320 --> 10:59.640] [SPEAKER_11]: I know it won't be long, that change has got to come.
[11:00.020 --> 11:12.100] [SPEAKER_00]: Bob Marley, Sunday, May 27th, all day, right here on your listener-sponsored, non-commercial radio in New York, WBAI, located at 99.5 FM on your dial.
[11:12.800 --> 11:13.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Watch out.
[11:14.620 --> 11:15.900] [SPEAKER_11]: So long.
[11:16.480 --> 11:19.700] [SPEAKER_11]: If we unite, then we will be free.
[11:19.700 --> 11:20.660] [SPEAKER_11]: We will be free.
[11:20.880 --> 11:21.820] [SPEAKER_11]: So strong.
[11:22.560 --> 11:23.580] [SPEAKER_11]: So strong.
[11:23.820 --> 11:26.600] [SPEAKER_11]: I want you to cheer up my father.
[11:30.770 --> 11:38.050] [SPEAKER_12]: And in case you haven't guessed it by now, you're listening to WBAI, listener-supported radio in New York.
[11:38.350 --> 11:42.650] [SPEAKER_12]: And, gosh, we played a lot of promotions for things that are coming up.
[11:42.830 --> 11:45.390] [SPEAKER_12]: There's just so many things that are happening on this radio station.
[11:45.510 --> 11:51.470] [SPEAKER_12]: 24 hours a day, we've got all kinds of alternative, educational, entertainment programs.
[11:52.150 --> 11:56.810] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, we could play these promotions all night long and never repeat them.
[11:57.090 --> 11:58.710] [SPEAKER_12]: It's the most incredible thing.
[11:58.810 --> 12:00.430] [SPEAKER_12]: What other radio station gives you that?
[12:00.690 --> 12:03.970] [SPEAKER_12]: But we don't just play the promotions, we play the programs.
[12:04.210 --> 12:14.330] [SPEAKER_12]: But we do have a problem right now in the fact that the program normally scheduled for this time, women just want to have funds, well, it's not around.
[12:14.330 --> 12:15.350] [SPEAKER_12]: We can't find it anywhere.
[12:15.530 --> 12:19.290] [SPEAKER_12]: And that's kind of a clue when you hear all kinds of promotions going on.
[12:19.390 --> 12:21.550] [SPEAKER_12]: It means that we're frantically looking for something, usually.
[12:21.990 --> 12:28.710] [SPEAKER_12]: And the program that was supposed to be produced by Laura Flanders apparently isn't going to be on tonight.
[12:28.770 --> 12:30.790] [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't look like we can find it anywhere.
[12:31.030 --> 12:41.930] [SPEAKER_12]: And listening to Undercurrents earlier in the evening, Laura Flanders gave a report from East Berlin, which means it's going to be kind of difficult for her to host this program here in New York.
[12:42.110 --> 12:51.350] [SPEAKER_12]: So unless somebody figures something out with the time warp, we're going to be doing something else here on listener-supported WBAI radio.
[12:51.670 --> 12:53.270] [SPEAKER_12]: My name's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[12:53.590 --> 12:58.570] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm normally here alternate Thursday nights, but sometimes I pop in on Mondays as well.
[13:00.090 --> 13:11.350] [SPEAKER_12]: And I got to thinking while we were frantically looking for those programs that aren't going to be on, I was thinking about, well, Eastern Europe, because that's where Laura Flanders is.
[13:11.570 --> 13:12.470] [SPEAKER_12]: She's in East Berlin.
[13:13.010 --> 13:19.030] [SPEAKER_12]: And all the changes going on in Eastern Europe, and where it's leading.
[13:19.490 --> 13:28.190] [SPEAKER_12]: Reunification of Germany, pro-democracy, quote-unquote, in the Soviet Union, Romania, Hungary, etc., etc.
[13:29.690 --> 13:31.550] [SPEAKER_12]: Where is it going to go?
[13:31.670 --> 13:35.450] [SPEAKER_12]: I saw an article in the paper today, in the Times, about pollution.
[13:35.850 --> 13:42.350] [SPEAKER_12]: And that's one thing that Eastern Europe certainly seems to have surpassed Western Europe in, is pollution.
[13:43.290 --> 13:53.450] [SPEAKER_12]: Across a mountain range where East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Poland meet, lies the bitter fallout from industrial schemes conceived in the Kremlin four decades ago.
[13:53.450 --> 14:00.310] [SPEAKER_12]: So, barren plateaus stretch for miles, studded with the stumps and skeletons of pine trees.
[14:00.630 --> 14:07.150] [SPEAKER_12]: Under the snow lie thousands of acres of poisoned ground, where for centuries thick forests had grown.
[14:07.650 --> 14:11.390] [SPEAKER_12]: This is the heart of Europe, the sick heart of Europe, its people call it.
[14:11.810 --> 14:22.530] [SPEAKER_12]: Below these mountains in a broad belt, from Leipzig in East Germany, to Krakow in southern Poland, and across northern Czechoslovakia, are the bulk of Eastern Europe's heavy industries.
[14:23.870 --> 14:33.530] [SPEAKER_12]: Power plants stand beside them, spewing smoke heavily with sulfur and soot, as they drive steel and chemical works and heat homes.
[14:34.430 --> 14:45.170] [SPEAKER_12]: In the rush to compete with the West, the three countries have stoked these plants with millions of tons of lignite, a geologically younger coal that is dirty, cheap, and abundant here.
[14:45.290 --> 14:49.350] [SPEAKER_12]: Just 10% of the coal mined and burned in the United States is lignite, to give you an idea.
[14:49.350 --> 14:53.210] [SPEAKER_12]: The hunt for cheap energy has come back to haunt the planters.
[14:53.410 --> 15:03.850] [SPEAKER_12]: The brown coal smoke and other noxious emissions have wreaked havoc on buildings, penetrated people's lungs, and poured acid rain over farmlands and forests.
[15:11.100 --> 15:23.100] [SPEAKER_12]: As post-communist Eastern Europe is taking stock of the impact of callous industrial rampage, at least a dozen cities in this grime belt are vying for the title of being Europe's most polluted place.
[15:25.300 --> 15:36.260] [SPEAKER_12]: Frantisek Urban, director of nature conservation in Czechoslovakia's eight-week-old Ministry of Environment says, basically, we are seeing an ecological catastrophe.
[15:37.540 --> 15:53.420] [SPEAKER_12]: While acid rain damage to forests from car and industrial exhausts all over Western Europe has been reported for more than a decade, forestry experts meeting in Prague last week said, no other place had such an extent of forest deaths in Central Europe's industrial belt.
[15:53.560 --> 16:05.560] [SPEAKER_12]: They cited a stretch of some 350 miles, where more than 300,000 acres of forest had disappeared, and surviving trees were so sick, their lifespan would be short.
[16:06.840 --> 16:14.340] [SPEAKER_12]: With prevailing winds blowing east, Czechs blame East Germans for half their pollution, and Poles blame both neighbors for as much.
[16:14.340 --> 16:18.480] [SPEAKER_12]: Poland's fallout has also felt in the Ukraine and in Sweden.
[16:21.870 --> 16:29.850] [SPEAKER_12]: A thick brown haze hung over much of North Czechoslovakia, something people described as normal for eight months of the year.
[16:30.310 --> 16:39.110] [SPEAKER_12]: It took on the sting of tear gas between Usti and Shumatuf on the edge of the vast brown coal basin of northern Bohemia.
[16:39.390 --> 16:42.470] [SPEAKER_12]: The basin maintains ten power plants.
[16:44.510 --> 16:51.250] [SPEAKER_12]: In just the last few years, Czechs said the country had spent a fortune on Soviet desulfurization scrubbers.
[16:51.970 --> 16:56.170] [SPEAKER_12]: We were promised 80% efficiency, but they are continuously breaking down.
[16:56.950 --> 17:02.590] [SPEAKER_12]: Mr. Urban in Prague had lamented, when they work, they clean only 30%.
[17:37.150 --> 17:39.010] [SPEAKER_12]: It's not very good news, is it?
[17:40.170 --> 17:41.690] [SPEAKER_12]: The things that are going on.
[17:42.730 --> 17:47.070] [SPEAKER_12]: And it's not just in Eastern Europe, it's in this country, very much in this country.
[17:47.510 --> 17:48.750] [SPEAKER_12]: It's over Antarctica.
[17:50.930 --> 17:53.310] [SPEAKER_12]: It's almost everywhere you can imagine.
[17:55.670 --> 18:01.350] [SPEAKER_12]: And if we've been exploring outer space a little bit more, I'm sure it would be there too, somehow.
[18:03.930 --> 18:24.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, in the remainder of time that we have, which at this point is 45 minutes, I'd like to hear from people as far as maybe some of the more positive changes going on in Eastern Europe, but also this matter of pollution, because it's something that's going to affect everybody for the rest of our lives,
[18:24.990 --> 18:28.170] [SPEAKER_12]: and future generations for lives still to come.
[18:34.280 --> 18:48.360] [SPEAKER_12]: And what's happening in Eastern Europe is something that folks in the United States can learn an awful lot from, both on the political front, on the environmental front, on just about every front you can think of.
[18:49.100 --> 18:50.560] [SPEAKER_12]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[18:50.660 --> 18:53.960] [SPEAKER_12]: The program has no name, but we're on to 11 o'clock.
[18:53.960 --> 18:56.020] [SPEAKER_12]: Our phone number is 279-3400.
[18:57.300 --> 19:02.580] [SPEAKER_12]: And since Laura Flanders is in Eastern Europe, we're going to talk about Eastern Europe.
[19:02.780 --> 19:04.280] [SPEAKER_12]: It's kind of an appropriate thing to do.
[19:06.100 --> 19:15.320] [SPEAKER_12]: Your thoughts, your feelings on the changes to come, the changes that have come, what could have been, what will never be.
[19:16.740 --> 19:17.900] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400.
[19:17.900 --> 19:18.920] [SPEAKER_12]: That's our telephone number.
[19:43.010 --> 19:48.930] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it's 17 minutes after 10 o'clock, and we're going to go right over to the telephones.
[19:49.390 --> 19:53.870] [SPEAKER_12]: We have about two open lines, 279-3400.
[19:54.430 --> 19:55.290] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[19:55.970 --> 19:56.690] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, hi.
[19:56.910 --> 19:57.370] [SPEAKER_12]: How you doing?
[19:57.730 --> 19:58.130] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, hi.
[19:58.190 --> 20:02.350] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm getting sick of all this environmental whining that's going on.
[20:02.530 --> 20:03.670] [SPEAKER_12]: Environmental whining?
[20:03.790 --> 20:05.090] [SPEAKER_12]: What would you suggest we do?
[20:05.090 --> 20:08.210] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I bet you you'd suggest us move into teepees.
[20:09.150 --> 20:14.150] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, maybe in your case it would be a good idea, but what do you expect us to do?
[20:14.690 --> 20:16.790] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I don't see any problems.
[20:17.230 --> 20:18.350] [SPEAKER_12]: You don't see any problems.
[20:18.370 --> 20:19.190] [SPEAKER_12]: Where do you live?
[20:19.730 --> 20:21.590] [SPEAKER_12]: Let me ask you to ask, when do you live?
[20:22.050 --> 20:22.670] [SPEAKER_12]: The Bronx.
[20:22.930 --> 20:24.730] [SPEAKER_12]: You live in the Bronx, and you don't see any problems.
[20:24.930 --> 20:26.270] [SPEAKER_08]: Right now, and having a good time.
[20:26.610 --> 20:26.970] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[20:27.150 --> 20:28.330] [SPEAKER_12]: What's your guide dog's name?
[20:30.530 --> 20:31.270] [SPEAKER_12]: Good morning.
[20:32.030 --> 20:33.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, I'm talking in the air.
[20:33.910 --> 20:34.910] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry, did I say good morning?
[20:34.990 --> 20:36.050] [SPEAKER_12]: I usually do a late night show.
[20:36.150 --> 20:36.550] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[20:36.770 --> 20:36.950] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[20:37.030 --> 20:37.330] [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[20:38.890 --> 20:40.070] [SPEAKER_12]: Am I on now, or...?
[20:40.070 --> 20:41.590] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you're on in seven seconds.
[20:41.590 --> 20:43.110] [SPEAKER_12]: We're on delay, but you're on, yes.
[20:43.390 --> 20:43.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[20:44.190 --> 20:44.610] [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[20:45.650 --> 20:50.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I wanted to mention some things around Eastern Europe and the environment.
[20:50.330 --> 21:01.870] [SPEAKER_04]: This phony communism in the East sounds exactly like Bhopal and Union Carbide and all the outrageous things they do here.
[21:02.010 --> 21:10.690] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's fine that this pretense of these regimes being any different than in the West is falling down.
[21:11.210 --> 21:23.290] [SPEAKER_04]: And I wanted to mention a program that's going on Wednesday night at Revolution Books speaking to some of this is particularly in wake of what's happened in Nicaragua.
[21:23.890 --> 21:32.590] [SPEAKER_04]: There's going to be a discussion there on the Nicaraguan elections and developments in the world off of that and where to go from here.
[21:32.870 --> 21:38.410] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, let's stick over to Eastern Europe at this point because that's where most of the changes seem to be taking place.
[21:38.990 --> 21:39.370] [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[21:39.570 --> 21:49.270] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, let's look at the immediate problem at hand where we have villages that are practically unlivable now because of the inexcusable pollution that's been going on.
[21:49.350 --> 21:50.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Where do we go from here?
[21:50.970 --> 21:54.190] [SPEAKER_12]: Do we pour money in to fix a situation?
[21:54.370 --> 21:56.830] [SPEAKER_12]: Do we just tell them to fix it or what?
[21:57.050 --> 22:06.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think it's the same motivation that's caused the Western governments to destroy their portion of the planet, which is the pursuit of profit.
[22:07.910 --> 22:11.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's what the Kremlin was doing in Eastern Europe.
[22:11.050 --> 22:15.710] [SPEAKER_04]: And the only difference is is that it hadn't been known to people outside of the region.
[22:15.710 --> 22:25.590] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's excellent that people are learning about these outrageous crimes that have been sort of quietly committed for decades.
[22:27.030 --> 22:34.510] [SPEAKER_04]: And at the same time, like I was saying, I don't think, when you said that thing about pouring money in, I don't think the U.S.
[22:34.590 --> 22:36.250] [SPEAKER_04]: government and the U.S.
[22:36.370 --> 22:38.870] [SPEAKER_04]: corporations are going to solve the problem.
[22:39.190 --> 22:41.510] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not what they're about doing.
[22:41.510 --> 22:43.730] [SPEAKER_04]: They're part of the problem.
[22:45.050 --> 23:01.090] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think another example, I don't know if you're going to get into it in your discussion, is Poland and the whole situation there where there's a U.S.-imposed austerity program on the people of Poland that's just an incredible nightmare.
[23:01.930 --> 23:09.130] [SPEAKER_04]: This is exactly the opposite of what the people of Poland need at this point, coming off of all the nightmare they've just been through.
[23:09.130 --> 23:13.350] [SPEAKER_12]: What, the nightmare of the government they've replaced?
[23:13.370 --> 23:26.770] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, it's now the IMF and all these others are going in there and are imposing this incredible clampdown on wages, working conditions, and so forth.
[23:26.930 --> 23:28.210] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's...
[23:30.130 --> 23:33.930] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, the question of the environment, I'm sure, is going to play into that, too.
[23:34.050 --> 23:38.210] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine how it's going to benefit the environment either on this.
[23:40.230 --> 23:44.790] [SPEAKER_12]: So, what do you see as the short-term answer, anyway?
[23:45.050 --> 23:47.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't see a short-term answer.
[23:47.550 --> 23:54.230] [SPEAKER_04]: I see that revolution, a for-real revolution, in those countries and in the ones in the West is what's going to be required.
[23:55.410 --> 24:13.790] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that a lot of people were hoping that's what had occurred in Eastern Europe, and I think that these illusions are now being, you know, rather clear for people to see, and we need to take stock of, you know, you know, distinguishing the sham from the real.
[24:14.030 --> 24:23.330] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, if there's one common denominator I keep seeing, and this seems to be the case after any movement, but particularly here, it's disillusionment.
[24:23.450 --> 24:25.310] [SPEAKER_12]: There's disillusionment in East Berlin.
[24:25.310 --> 24:29.230] [SPEAKER_12]: The people that started the pro-democracy movement feel left out now.
[24:29.370 --> 24:31.730] [SPEAKER_12]: In Romania, there's certainly disillusionment.
[24:31.810 --> 24:33.770] [SPEAKER_12]: They feel that they haven't really accomplished anything.
[24:34.330 --> 24:37.670] [SPEAKER_12]: And it's also in many other of the Eastern countries as well.
[24:37.790 --> 24:49.850] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that that's actually similar to the type of thing that happened in Iran, where people rose up against the Shah, but the new government is not what the people need.
[24:50.070 --> 24:54.890] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they haven't had a thorough-going revolution in Romania or the other countries yet.
[24:55.310 --> 25:01.050] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, a lot of the ruling elite is still there.
[25:01.290 --> 25:06.570] [SPEAKER_04]: They're just regrouped to carry on in a new form.
[25:07.630 --> 25:11.150] [SPEAKER_04]: And Romania is a very sharp example of that.
[25:11.970 --> 25:14.070] [SPEAKER_04]: East Germany is as well.
[25:14.550 --> 25:21.110] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that points out the need for, again, a real revolution.
[25:21.110 --> 25:34.930] [SPEAKER_04]: and, for example, going back to the 1960s, Mao and others had exposed these governments in Eastern Europe as being state capitalists.
[25:35.050 --> 25:38.610] [SPEAKER_04]: And now they're just going, switching over to Western-formed capitalism.
[25:38.610 --> 25:48.110] [SPEAKER_04]: But for the majority of people in these countries, it's like just another form, a different poison, but still poison.
[25:48.770 --> 25:50.110] [SPEAKER_12]: One final question.
[25:50.410 --> 25:54.730] [SPEAKER_12]: How do you feel about the reunification of West Germany and East Germany?
[25:55.070 --> 26:01.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think that there's already enough warmongering superpowers in the world.
[26:01.170 --> 26:02.810] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't need another one.
[26:03.390 --> 26:16.430] [SPEAKER_04]: And I can't imagine how Germany reunified could be worse than the United States or the Soviets, but there's going to be another major superpower, potentially.
[26:16.910 --> 26:25.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't see how that benefits the people of Germany or any other country to see that develop.
[26:25.510 --> 26:27.730] [SPEAKER_12]: Do you think they should be aligned with NATO?
[26:28.550 --> 26:31.090] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't think NATO should even exist.
[26:31.310 --> 26:32.490] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's a war block.
[26:32.670 --> 26:38.810] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, you know, it's an alliance that exists to further imperialist domination.
[26:40.250 --> 26:58.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And if East Germany switches from the Soviet war block, the Warsaw Pact, to the Western war block, that's certainly no benefit to the people of the world, which need to see these war blocks destroyed.
[26:59.130 --> 27:19.450] [SPEAKER_04]: In the interest of, and you were talking about the environment, and there's many other reasons that the issue of nuclear warfare needs to be, you know, you know, we need to make revolution and prevent world war and not try to figure out some way to regroup these various war machines.
[27:20.370 --> 27:26.850] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, don't you get the feeling that a lot of people are trying to figure out how to do just that, how to keep playing war?
[27:26.910 --> 27:38.830] [SPEAKER_04]: It's an excellent time to live in this globe, you know, in terms of people are trying to sort out a lot of questions, and I think that the 90s are going to be a really exciting period for us all to be living in.
[27:39.650 --> 27:41.110] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, thanks very much for calling.
[27:41.270 --> 27:41.910] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, bye-bye.
[27:42.230 --> 27:46.290] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400, talking about Eastern Europe, talking about change.
[27:46.830 --> 27:47.550] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[27:51.150 --> 27:56.670] [SPEAKER_12]: You'll have to speak English, I mean, let's be fair, let's be fair to the masses of Americans here.
[27:57.510 --> 27:58.230] [SPEAKER_12]: Anyone there?
[27:58.230 --> 28:00.470] [SPEAKER_12]: All right, all right, all right, all right.
[28:00.830 --> 28:02.130] [SPEAKER_12]: Good morning, good evening.
[28:03.050 --> 28:03.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[28:03.770 --> 28:04.050] [SPEAKER_12]: Hi.
[28:05.030 --> 28:15.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, I just thought I'd mention that it seems a bit odd, the timing of the discussion about the environmental problems in Eastern Europe, and I should add China.
[28:17.330 --> 28:24.350] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not anything new, and it's something that people in the Western media, at least, I'm sure, have known about for quite some time.
[28:24.350 --> 28:39.390] [SPEAKER_05]: I know somebody who's working on a fish-stocking program between Russia and China, and, you know, you don't hear them talking about the Duracell battery plants up in Canada on the Elcan Highway, where it looks about the same.
[28:40.650 --> 28:44.170] [SPEAKER_12]: So, basically, you're saying the same problems exist in the West as in the East?
[28:44.290 --> 28:54.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, no, I'm just saying that the problems in the East, the West wasn't willing to criticize the East for their environmental problems, both on the left and the right, for different reasons reasons, I think.
[28:56.730 --> 29:16.110] [SPEAKER_05]: The right didn't want to, if you will, in quotes, make a lot of noise about pollution in the East, because we have the same problem here, and so that raises a finger to our industrial problems, and the left, to some degree, sat on its hands because of its view of those country social policies,
[29:16.290 --> 29:17.710] [SPEAKER_05]: and so on and so forth.
[29:17.830 --> 29:26.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess what I'm saying is that politically, the environment got the squeeze in the middle, and now that it's starting to become fashionable again to speak about the environment.
[29:28.130 --> 29:40.930] [SPEAKER_05]: Suddenly, everybody's jumping on the bandwagon while I think segments in the middle and on the right are possibly attempting to use it to their benefit or to make the East look bad, if you will.
[29:41.090 --> 29:42.590] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, you raise a very good point.
[29:42.690 --> 29:44.370] [SPEAKER_12]: It has become fashionable.
[29:44.450 --> 29:45.590] [SPEAKER_12]: That's exactly the word.
[29:45.790 --> 29:56.590] [SPEAKER_12]: It's become fashionable to speak about the environment again, and you know, a lot of people are using this to sort of push their own personal careers or you know, push corporate careers or whatever.
[29:58.590 --> 30:10.730] [SPEAKER_12]: It's sad that we have to wait until we practically have the environment at its last breath before we start saying, hey, you know, it's time we started taking an interest in the environment.
[30:10.810 --> 30:12.050] [SPEAKER_12]: The time was 20 years ago.
[30:12.050 --> 30:12.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, absolutely.
[30:13.010 --> 30:21.070] [SPEAKER_05]: The Clean Air Act now, I haven't read it, but the new one is, my understanding, is a shadow of what it started out to be.
[30:21.330 --> 30:33.350] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I guess the last environmental movement meant we got a pH balanced shampoo for a while and ads that, and television ads that were environmentally conscious.
[30:33.630 --> 30:41.990] [SPEAKER_05]: But, I don't know, I just, I guess I would raise the cautionary sign that sort of beware of
[30:46.430 --> 30:48.130] [SPEAKER_05]: secondary and ulterior motives.
[30:48.370 --> 31:17.210] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the environmental movement last time around, there were a lot of very dedicated people involved in the movement, and a lot of people got on it and, oh, this is the thing to be interested in, and then sort of left it by the wayside, just like saving gasoline and small cars and everything else that all went by the is the fact that new generations of people are going to come into being,
[31:17.230 --> 31:27.990] [SPEAKER_12]: and they're not going to know anything about the days when you used to be able to drink water out of streams, the days when you used to be able to see the stars from the ground, and they're just going to assume that that was all folklore.
[31:28.270 --> 31:30.710] [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm talking, you know, I'm talking a few generations ahead.
[31:30.710 --> 31:31.650] [SPEAKER_12]: Not that many, though.
[31:32.110 --> 31:34.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah, like, I mean, I'm not that old.
[31:34.110 --> 31:38.810] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm, I guess I'm, I'm 34, and I can remember when I would...
[31:40.510 --> 31:55.530] [SPEAKER_05]: ones like they, they have, uh, at home, and, you know, I, I mean, it just, uh, uh, uh, population density has increased in a lot of those places, and, and, uh, it's, with, there's, you've got them, they're just mauling the whole thing, if you will.
[31:55.830 --> 31:57.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, uh, I, I don't know.
[31:58.210 --> 31:59.390] [SPEAKER_12]: Mauling, yeah, that's a good word.
[31:59.490 --> 32:02.690] [SPEAKER_05]: The mauling, well, there's a, I think of America.
[32:03.130 --> 32:16.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but I, I guess what I'm saying is, is that with the issue in the East, it's been there for a long time, uh, the Communist countries haven't been any better than we have, and in many cases worse, although, uh, uh, our industrial people don't want to say,
[32:16.570 --> 32:20.710] [SPEAKER_05]: oh, look, they're being bad, because that would make, you know, then people would, well, what about you?
[32:21.250 --> 32:36.870] [SPEAKER_05]: And the left doesn't want to say anything bad about it, because, uh, those are supposedly, uh, uh, uh, socially progressive countries when, in, in, in many respects, uh, uh, at least with regards to their environment, uh, uh, uh, it's, uh, sort of been,
[32:37.050 --> 32:43.750] [SPEAKER_05]: uh, uh, totally forsaken, which today isn't considered progressive, because environmentalism is fashionable.
[32:44.330 --> 32:50.030] [SPEAKER_05]: But, anyway, uh, good program, uh, you've, even though, uh, even though it's not the program that it's supposed to be.
[32:50.110 --> 32:56.770] [SPEAKER_12]: No, it certainly isn't the program it's supposed to be, and perhaps I should explain that again, but, uh, first I want to thank you for calling, and, uh, wish you a good night.
[32:56.990 --> 32:57.510] Hey, thank you.
[32:57.650 --> 32:57.930] [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[32:58.190 --> 33:00.110] [SPEAKER_12]: And I also want to encourage other people to call.
[33:00.230 --> 33:02.550] [SPEAKER_12]: Our phone lines are wide open.
[33:03.470 --> 33:05.170] [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe the phones are broken, I don't know.
[33:05.450 --> 33:09.630] [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, usually they're, they're lit up like a, like a Christmas tree, or whatever you want to call it.
[33:09.790 --> 33:19.210] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, our number is 279-3400, and this is kind of, uh, kind of a free-form show that just suddenly materialized as, uh, things suddenly materialize here at WBAI sometimes.
[33:19.610 --> 33:28.210] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the program originally scheduled for this time, um, disappeared into a time warp of some sort, short, and, uh, will not be on, uh, tonight.
[33:28.490 --> 33:33.290] [SPEAKER_12]: I, it's half an hour after we were supposed to have started, so I can say quite definitely it won't be on tonight.
[33:33.970 --> 33:46.170] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the, um, the host of this program is in East Berlin, and, uh, uh, the program was originally supposed to be about, um, uh, women's and girls' projects and organizations.
[33:46.170 --> 33:48.150] [SPEAKER_12]: That's what I'm reading from the, uh, folio here.
[33:48.750 --> 33:56.750] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, there were supposed to have been guests, including representatives of women's funds at national and local levels, uh, as well as several grant recipients and donors.
[33:56.890 --> 33:58.690] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, none of those people are here.
[33:58.930 --> 34:12.570] [SPEAKER_12]: No, no people involved in that at all, and, uh, I don't feel qualified to speak on that subject, but I do feel qualified to speak on the subject of pollution and, uh, just messing up the environment and messing up civilization as a whole.
[34:12.790 --> 34:18.190] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know why I feel qualified to talk about that, but, uh, somehow I, I think that's what my generation is
[34:21.630 --> 34:22.190] [SPEAKER_12]: to eternity.
[34:22.530 --> 34:31.930] [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, you're welcome to call in with your, uh, comments about, uh, pollution, Eastern Europe, German reunification, and just really anything in particular, I suppose.
[34:32.170 --> 34:35.410] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400 is our telephone number, area code 212.
[34:36.350 --> 34:41.690] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, my name's Emmanuel Goldstein and I'll be here until 11 o'clock, at which time we'll be rebroadcasting the news.
[34:42.050 --> 34:42.870] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[34:44.450 --> 34:45.930] [SPEAKER_06]: It's your turn to speak.
[34:46.490 --> 34:50.250] [SPEAKER_06]: First, you're asking someone in the street where various places are.
[34:50.450 --> 34:51.310] [SPEAKER_06]: I'll prompt you.
[34:51.810 --> 34:52.450] [SPEAKER_06]: Start now.
[34:53.970 --> 34:54.830] [SPEAKER_06]: Excuse me, please.
[34:55.430 --> 34:56.450] [SPEAKER_06]: Where's the main station?
[34:59.580 --> 35:01.120] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know where the main station is.
[35:03.560 --> 35:04.400] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, good morning.
[35:04.600 --> 35:04.960] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[35:07.760 --> 35:09.200] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, turn down your radio, please.
[35:09.640 --> 35:09.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Hello?
[35:10.040 --> 35:10.660] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, go ahead.
[35:10.680 --> 35:12.240] [SPEAKER_12]: You're on, but your radio is on, too.
[35:13.080 --> 35:14.040] [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, how you doing, Emmanuel?
[35:14.220 --> 35:14.880] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, how are you?
[35:15.120 --> 35:15.540] [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[35:15.620 --> 35:16.220] [SPEAKER_12]: Where are you calling from?
[35:16.520 --> 35:17.640] [SPEAKER_15]: I'm calling from the Bronx.
[35:17.820 --> 35:18.140] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[35:18.560 --> 35:19.380] [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, uh...
[35:19.380 --> 35:19.720] [SPEAKER_12]: What's up?
[35:20.580 --> 35:21.400] [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, nothing much.
[35:21.400 --> 35:25.500] [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, do you remember the, uh...
[35:25.500 --> 35:29.180] [SPEAKER_15]: Of course, I'm sure you heard about the, the, uh...
[35:29.180 --> 35:32.760] [SPEAKER_15]: chemical plant, or a purported chemical plant in Libya.
[35:32.940 --> 35:33.520] [SPEAKER_12]: In Libya, yeah.
[35:33.540 --> 35:34.720] [SPEAKER_12]: That's an interesting story, too.
[35:34.940 --> 35:37.840] [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, well, my question is sort of environmental, also.
[35:38.360 --> 35:41.260] [SPEAKER_15]: If you remember some years back, the, uh...
[35:41.260 --> 35:45.100] [SPEAKER_15]: plant, another chemical plant in India, is it Bhopal, India?
[35:45.360 --> 35:46.680] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, Bhopal was the name.
[35:46.680 --> 35:47.140] [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[35:48.120 --> 35:53.380] [SPEAKER_15]: From what I recollect from that accident, that was, uh, what they would consider a minor accident.
[35:53.380 --> 35:56.140] [SPEAKER_15]: It was, uh, a small leak and a small fire.
[35:57.120 --> 36:00.020] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if anyone actually called it a minor accident.
[36:00.180 --> 36:06.600] [SPEAKER_12]: That would have not been exactly politically correct to say that, but, uh, perhaps in the scheme of things, it was a minor compared to what could have happened.
[36:06.720 --> 36:10.540] [SPEAKER_15]: I'm quoting from, uh, from, from Union Carbide's side.
[36:10.680 --> 36:16.200] [SPEAKER_15]: They said it was a, a minor accident as far as, uh, the destruction of the physical plant is.
[36:16.500 --> 36:16.520] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[36:17.000 --> 36:20.360] [SPEAKER_15]: But, nonetheless, thousands of people died around it.
[36:20.720 --> 36:29.320] [SPEAKER_15]: And they, you know, supposedly it wasn't, uh, anything that they were manufactured that was that dangerous, but as it turned out, it killed thousands of people.
[36:30.020 --> 36:42.520] [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I would have imagined if this plant in Libya was manufacturing poison gas and storing it, there should be thousands of bodies laying around this plant for, you know, miles and miles.
[36:43.400 --> 36:53.920] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, uh, no, I, I heard a report today that, uh, while Libya is claiming there was extensive damage, aerial photographs from satellites say that, uh, there really doesn't seem to have been much.
[36:54.120 --> 36:59.340] [SPEAKER_12]: I also heard a report over the weekend that, uh, President Bush was planning to attack that.
[36:59.500 --> 37:05.500] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, he's planning to attack little things all over the, all over the world, but, uh, his latest conquest would have been the Libyan, uh, chemical plant.
[37:05.620 --> 37:08.120] [SPEAKER_12]: He was planning on sending a missile over there just to destroy it.
[37:08.600 --> 37:09.460] [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, a missile.
[37:09.460 --> 37:10.700] [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it's incredible.
[37:10.920 --> 37:17.740] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know what, what he's going to, uh, pinpoint next, you know, is a certain architecture he doesn't like in, in, in the Soviet Union somewhere.
[37:17.740 --> 37:20.280] [SPEAKER_12]: He's going to send a rocket over just to destroy that.
[37:20.620 --> 37:29.560] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, all these little targets, you know, Panama and, uh, and, uh, Nicaragua and Grenada, you know, that's what the Reagan-Bush administration seems to be targeting.
[37:29.700 --> 37:31.320] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if they're planning on something bigger.
[37:31.580 --> 37:33.300] [SPEAKER_12]: They're like working up to something bigger.
[37:33.400 --> 37:33.780] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know.
[37:34.180 --> 37:34.500] [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[37:34.500 --> 37:36.120] [SPEAKER_12]: That's, uh, that's been bothering me.
[37:36.200 --> 37:44.980] [SPEAKER_15]: It seemed a telltale sign if this was really a poisonous weapons plant, there would have been thousands of bodies laying around and the proof would have been there for the world to see.
[37:45.360 --> 37:51.120] [SPEAKER_15]: You know, people dropping dead left and right, you know, towns hundreds of miles away, but I haven't heard stories of that.
[37:51.300 --> 38:05.600] [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure they do have deaths, you know, people that were working within the physical facility itself, but if, uh, if it was chemical weapons of the sort for warfare, there should be people, you know, 300 miles away dropping dead in villages also, if that was the case.
[38:06.120 --> 38:06.280] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[38:06.400 --> 38:22.220] [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, the other thing that gets me is the, uh, the way we're hypocritical about this, uh, listening to Undercurrence earlier this evening, uh, I would, I learned that that President Bush twice, when he was vice president, and, uh, was asked to cast tie-breaking votes in the Senate,
[38:22.860 --> 38:26.760] [SPEAKER_12]: uh, both times, cast them in favor of more chemical weapons.
[38:27.400 --> 38:30.620] [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, who was he to speak about chemical weapons?
[38:31.100 --> 38:31.580] [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[38:31.960 --> 38:38.080] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, obviously he seems to like the idea of chemical weapons for us, probably as a deterrent to make us all safer.
[38:38.380 --> 38:40.720] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, maybe, maybe Libya has the same feelings.
[38:40.860 --> 38:44.660] [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe they don't feel too comfortable with, uh, us breathing down their necks and occasionally bombing them.
[38:45.780 --> 38:48.860] [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, well, they certainly would have, uh, caused to feel that way.
[38:49.140 --> 38:49.460] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[38:50.140 --> 38:51.840] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I'm not defending chemical weapons.
[38:51.980 --> 38:54.760] [SPEAKER_12]: I think, uh, I don't think there should be any chemical weapons anywhere.
[38:55.020 --> 38:58.920] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think there should be many kinds of any weapons anywhere, but, uh, that's something else.
[38:59.580 --> 39:01.320] [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, okay, Emmanuel.
[39:01.660 --> 39:02.500] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[39:03.520 --> 39:05.180] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400 is our phone number.
[39:05.320 --> 39:14.220] [SPEAKER_12]: And, folks, just to make things even more exciting, if someone has details about that, uh, that propane railroad car sitting in Queens that, uh, they had to close.
[39:14.540 --> 39:15.660] [SPEAKER_12]: I, this was incredible.
[39:15.860 --> 39:34.180] [SPEAKER_12]: Coming over here this evening, I, I just decided to walk through Penn Station because I had heard that all trains, all trains to, uh, to Queens had been suspended, both on the number 7 line and, uh, the entire LIRR, Long Island Railroad, had, uh, had stopped service so that they could turn this,
[39:34.180 --> 39:40.920] [SPEAKER_12]: this propane tank car that had fallen over and derailed in the Sunnyside yards, uh, so that they could turn it over.
[39:41.360 --> 39:44.120] [SPEAKER_12]: And it was, uh, it was incredible.
[39:44.260 --> 39:45.100] [SPEAKER_12]: It was pandemonium.
[39:45.280 --> 39:51.280] [SPEAKER_12]: There were, there were hundreds, thousands of people wandering around in Penn Station saying, where do we go?
[39:51.280 --> 39:51.880] [SPEAKER_12]: What do we do?
[39:52.000 --> 39:52.640] [SPEAKER_12]: How do we get there?
[39:52.760 --> 39:53.440] [SPEAKER_12]: Ride the subway?
[39:53.620 --> 39:54.140] [SPEAKER_12]: Are you crazy?
[39:54.600 --> 39:55.980] [SPEAKER_12]: That's what they were being told to do.
[39:56.560 --> 39:57.520] [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, Tom?
[39:58.200 --> 39:58.960] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Eric.
[39:59.040 --> 40:00.400] [SPEAKER_03]: You have a late breaking news story for us.
[40:00.400 --> 40:03.960] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I have a late breaking news story, but I can tell you that I was there in person.
[40:04.180 --> 40:04.520] [SPEAKER_03]: You were there?
[40:04.620 --> 40:06.720] [SPEAKER_03]: On my way, on my way here, as a matter of fact.
[40:06.740 --> 40:07.840] [SPEAKER_12]: What, at the propane car?
[40:08.040 --> 40:19.400] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, what they did is they closed a part of Queensborough Boulevard going approximately from Jackson Avenue to Skillman Avenue, which is a fairly big stretch.
[40:19.580 --> 40:20.320] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very big stretch.
[40:20.320 --> 40:36.400] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you're on the number seven train going from, let's say, oh, Queensborough Plaza to 33rd Street, Rawson, where LaGuardia Community College is, that's approximately, oh, that bridge is approximately like three-quarters of the distance between those two stations.
[40:36.580 --> 40:37.800] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's a pretty big bridge.
[40:37.960 --> 40:50.300] [SPEAKER_03]: So they closed that, and they were sort of gingerly letting traffic run across it, but they closed it to all pedestrian traffic, except to, uh, except people who were part of fire department crews and stuff like that.
[40:50.320 --> 40:51.140] [SPEAKER_03]: What time are you there?
[40:51.480 --> 40:55.280] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, this was around approximately, oh, 7.30, quarter to eight.
[40:55.380 --> 40:56.180] [SPEAKER_03]: That's about when I was there.
[40:56.240 --> 40:56.720] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't see you.
[40:57.100 --> 41:03.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, actually, no, come to think, when I was there a little bit earlier, more like, let's say, 7.15 to 7.20-ish.
[41:03.040 --> 41:06.080] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, I was there closer to eight when they were about to close it all together.
[41:06.320 --> 41:06.620] [SPEAKER_15]: Huh.
[41:06.780 --> 41:13.980] [SPEAKER_12]: And they suspended all service on the subway over there, and Long Island Railroad, nothing, they didn't want anything anywhere near there.
[41:14.060 --> 41:15.860] [SPEAKER_12]: And you have to wonder, what does that mean?
[41:16.000 --> 41:16.800] [SPEAKER_12]: What does that mean, folks?
[41:16.900 --> 41:23.760] [SPEAKER_12]: Does that mean that if this propane car explodes in Queens, that, that entire area is going to be, uh, catastrophically affected?
[41:24.140 --> 41:25.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, it was in the train yards, correct?
[41:26.100 --> 41:27.200] [SPEAKER_12]: This was in Sunnyside Yard.
[41:27.380 --> 41:30.360] [SPEAKER_12]: It was right, right on, um, on Queens Boulevard.
[41:30.580 --> 41:32.120] [SPEAKER_12]: It was probably directly under it.
[41:32.120 --> 41:33.740] [SPEAKER_12]: You could see the spotlights looking down on it.
[41:33.920 --> 41:35.480] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I didn't get out of my car to look.
[41:35.560 --> 41:38.560] [SPEAKER_12]: I wasn't that crazy, but, uh, you could tell exactly where it was.
[41:38.740 --> 41:42.100] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, if this had happened in a small town in Texas, I'm sure there would have been an evacuation.
[41:42.500 --> 41:42.840] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, exactly.
[41:42.840 --> 41:43.600] [SPEAKER_12]: You always hear about those things.
[41:43.600 --> 41:48.540] [SPEAKER_03]: The reason why they probably didn't evacuate it, Eric, is that that's largely an industrial neighborhood.
[41:48.820 --> 41:48.900] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[41:48.900 --> 41:57.060] [SPEAKER_03]: And they have the train yards in the middle of where it happened, so you had, as they probably thought, well, there's this huge stretch where practically nobody is.
[41:57.120 --> 41:58.660] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't have to worry about that type of stuff.
[41:58.820 --> 41:58.840] [SPEAKER_03]: Well...
[41:58.840 --> 42:02.160] [SPEAKER_03]: But the whole problem is, is that above that bridge, there's a ton of traffic.
[42:02.320 --> 42:04.500] [SPEAKER_12]: There's a ton of traffic, and that's probably why they stopped it.
[42:04.880 --> 42:06.540] [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, keep in mind...
[42:06.540 --> 42:10.460] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was going across it at 715, they didn't stop any of the traffic at all.
[42:10.680 --> 42:18.620] [SPEAKER_12]: Keep in mind, that propane, uh, that propane car, that train car had been going through a residential parts of Queens as well, before.
[42:18.880 --> 42:19.580] [SPEAKER_12]: It could have happened there.
[42:19.680 --> 42:22.580] [SPEAKER_12]: It could have happened anywhere, and we're facing these risks every day.
[42:22.860 --> 42:26.300] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I just wanted to give you a little bit of an idea as to what was going on with that.
[42:26.400 --> 42:26.520] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[42:26.680 --> 42:27.520] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, thanks for dropping in.
[42:27.720 --> 42:28.940] [SPEAKER_12]: And we're going to go back to the phones.
[42:29.800 --> 42:31.460] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400 is our telephone number.
[42:31.640 --> 42:31.980] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[42:32.880 --> 42:33.640] [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, good evening.
[42:34.020 --> 42:38.640] [SPEAKER_13]: I'd like to put, uh, Women's History Month in the context of the environment.
[42:39.020 --> 42:39.340] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[42:39.860 --> 42:43.380] [SPEAKER_13]: Um, here you have this, this Mother Earth.
[42:44.500 --> 42:50.980] [SPEAKER_13]: Because, uh, it seems like life sprang forth from the, uh, womb of the, uh, ocean, the vast oceans.
[42:51.940 --> 43:13.240] [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, it seems with the onset of patriarchal society, uh, roughly, I don't know, two to four thousand years ago, where the tides was turned for matriarchal civilization, civilization, and dominated by a very aggressive male, it seemed to coincide with the,
[43:13.260 --> 43:15.120] [SPEAKER_13]: uh, destruction of the earth gradually.
[43:15.740 --> 43:22.500] [SPEAKER_13]: And it seems like we're gonna suffer more from our water being polluted, because once there's no more water, no more man.
[43:23.480 --> 43:23.780] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[43:24.620 --> 43:26.220] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's a, that's a good parallel.
[43:26.380 --> 43:27.420] [SPEAKER_12]: I, I, I like that.
[43:27.680 --> 43:36.260] [SPEAKER_12]: But again, I don't want to, uh, I don't want to throw the blame, you know, just on, on the male part of the human race, because I think we're all to blame.
[43:36.800 --> 43:37.200] [SPEAKER_13]: You know?
[43:37.200 --> 43:37.860] [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[43:38.120 --> 43:41.500] [SPEAKER_13]: You know, men will be the first to take credit for all the, uh, advances.
[43:42.080 --> 43:45.340] [SPEAKER_13]: And with all advances become the, uh, blowback from it.
[43:46.120 --> 43:51.680] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but, you know, there's, there's, there's women too that, uh, are at the forefront of this.
[43:51.760 --> 44:00.420] [SPEAKER_12]: It's, uh, you know, yeah, women have been denied equality, but I think a lot of women once they get equality will behave equally.
[44:00.820 --> 44:03.500] [SPEAKER_12]: Therefore, we're all just the same.
[44:03.720 --> 44:04.600] [SPEAKER_12]: Isn't that what we're all saying?
[44:04.600 --> 44:05.460] [SPEAKER_12]: We're all the same.
[44:05.640 --> 44:06.400] [SPEAKER_12]: We're all equal.
[44:06.880 --> 44:09.540] [SPEAKER_12]: So if we're stupid, we're all equally stupid.
[44:09.680 --> 44:10.220] [SPEAKER_12]: You see what I'm saying?
[44:10.780 --> 44:15.180] [SPEAKER_13]: I wouldn't, I wouldn't, how many, uh, women on the, uh, board of, um, Union Carbide?
[44:15.260 --> 44:19.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't follow those things, but, uh, okay, look at, look at three people, okay?
[44:20.080 --> 44:23.000] [SPEAKER_12]: Maggie Thatcher, Jean Kirkpatrick, Sandra Day O'Connor.
[44:23.180 --> 44:26.680] [SPEAKER_12]: And, and, and by the way, folks, have you ever seen all three of them in the same room together?
[44:26.700 --> 44:29.780] [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's kind of odd that you've never seen all three of them together.
[44:29.780 --> 44:30.980] [SPEAKER_12]: I think they're the same person.
[44:31.580 --> 44:34.620] [SPEAKER_13]: But they are unlike the, any of the women I seem to know.
[44:34.940 --> 44:41.780] [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they seem like the aggressive, uh, Western male mentality with the woman's head screwed on top of it.
[44:42.040 --> 44:50.780] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't know what percentage of women are like that, but what I'm saying is there are people like that, and there are males that aren't aggressive.
[44:51.540 --> 44:58.440] [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, I think we're, I think we're making a mistake when we just judge a particular group in any, any way, and that includes males, females, whatever.
[44:59.420 --> 45:01.660] [SPEAKER_13]: I, I wouldn't, I don't, I don't agree with that.
[45:02.080 --> 45:18.520] [SPEAKER_13]: But, um, I don't know, I think women are more typified by the ones who are standing, you know, in front of nuclear power parents protesting, you know, the, uh, prolification of, of nuclear war, you know, and weaponry, the people who are, you know, women who are more worried about their,
[45:18.680 --> 45:22.940] [SPEAKER_13]: their family than, you know, leading governments.
[45:23.320 --> 45:23.760] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[45:23.760 --> 45:33.260] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, I think males are, are as worried too, but perhaps they're victimized in another way by being forced, uh, to, uh, to, to work in a particular, uh, circumstance.
[45:33.680 --> 45:39.340] [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I don't know, you know, I think when you, when you get down to the basics, we all pretty much have the same concerns.
[45:39.340 --> 45:52.360] [SPEAKER_12]: We just have to be able to address those people, you know, address the males and, and say, you know, it's, uh, it's stupid for you to have to, uh, defend this, uh, this polluted economy of ours, this, uh, this way of life.
[45:53.680 --> 45:54.040] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[45:54.260 --> 45:54.880] [SPEAKER_12]: You see what I'm saying?
[45:55.060 --> 45:55.420] [SPEAKER_13]: Tragedy.
[45:56.500 --> 45:56.720] [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[45:56.840 --> 45:59.860] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I mean, a lot of males, yeah, they will, they will defend that.
[46:00.200 --> 46:04.700] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, they will be a part of that, but that's not, I don't think that's inherent in the male species.
[46:04.840 --> 46:06.120] [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's something in society.
[46:07.060 --> 46:15.360] [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it seems like in evolution, it seems like mankind has developed and, you know, in relation to how the Earth, you know, is developing.
[46:15.360 --> 46:22.520] [SPEAKER_13]: I can wonder what kind of, um, evolutionary creature will come out of this wasteland of a world we're going to have in the near future.
[46:22.680 --> 46:26.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't know, but if it can't live in space, it's not going to live very long, I can tell you that.
[46:27.300 --> 46:27.480] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[46:27.860 --> 46:28.960] [SPEAKER_12]: All right, thanks very much for calling.
[46:29.100 --> 46:29.280] [SPEAKER_12]: You're welcome.
[46:29.640 --> 46:31.220] [SPEAKER_12]: All right, 279-3400.
[46:31.480 --> 46:32.100] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[46:32.600 --> 46:33.380] [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, good evening.
[46:33.680 --> 46:43.440] [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, I wanted to mention that a woman on, uh, speaking over the phone on WBAI said try to have a shorter work day, you know, so more people could be employed.
[46:43.560 --> 46:45.120] [SPEAKER_14]: And I was thrilled by that.
[46:45.220 --> 46:49.800] [SPEAKER_14]: And I've even mentioned it on WABC, uh, to Barry Farber and he liked the idea.
[46:50.240 --> 47:02.920] [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, I'd like Tom Whalen to get him the tapes of, uh, Barry Farber, the tapes of, uh, the Uncle Sam and the Swastika so he knows more about the skullduggery of all these different undercover covert groups, you know, Emmanuel?
[47:03.520 --> 47:04.300] [SPEAKER_12]: Skullduggery, yes.
[47:04.480 --> 47:14.480] [SPEAKER_14]: And I mean, they are corrupting so much too, you know, in their own, uh, you know, subversive, subterranean way that, you know, we can't cope with it all of a sudden.
[47:14.760 --> 47:33.080] [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, Galen, this German, you know, intelligence expert who's brought, after committing, uh, countless crimes of, death on, uh, on the populace, you know, maybe 100,000 people probably, uh, at least, uh, he's brought to the United States to work for the CIA against,
[47:33.100 --> 47:38.160] [SPEAKER_14]: uh, the Soviets in what we call the Cold War, which now has, uh, you know, changed.
[47:38.160 --> 47:46.420] [SPEAKER_14]: But I want to also remind people that in Eisenhower's administration, he, uh, set up a commission to study leisure.
[47:46.760 --> 47:49.840] [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, I would wonder where that ever went.
[47:49.840 --> 47:57.960] [SPEAKER_14]: You know, it'd be interesting if, there was some, uh, you know, examination of, of their, uh, findings and, you know, what they suggested.
[47:58.200 --> 48:04.360] [SPEAKER_14]: I, I know more people go to museums than ever, but I'm talking about, uh, a better life, which relates to what I first said.
[48:04.600 --> 48:15.020] [SPEAKER_14]: Now, the other thing was that at one point in America, uh, I don't know if it was in 1970, they started a school for the presidency.
[48:15.380 --> 48:17.920] [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm even wondering whatever happened to that.
[48:18.100 --> 48:18.500] [SPEAKER_14]: You know what I mean?
[48:18.560 --> 48:21.240] [SPEAKER_14]: The young people would, you know, would study.
[48:21.460 --> 48:23.900] [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, naturally, they could all have been brainwashed.
[48:24.100 --> 48:30.500] [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, would hope that, uh, they're getting some of the information from the Pacifica stations, you know, and so forth.
[48:30.600 --> 48:45.920] [SPEAKER_14]: But anyway, and, uh, one thing I would love, um, you know, there's so much talk about all over the world and, uh, you know, I've been carrying on my own personal, uh, I won't call it a feud, but, uh, an attempt at, um, correcting situations at, at WBAI.
[48:46.120 --> 49:02.420] [SPEAKER_14]: You know, Max Schmid mentioned to me last night that in a 1983 document, uh, of Pacifica, they said that there shouldn't be any payola, but that to mention the price of a book and the, and the publisher was perfectly all right if you did it as a factual statement.
[49:02.860 --> 49:07.880] [SPEAKER_14]: So, uh, this is something that must be understood that what I did was perfectly...
[49:07.880 --> 49:08.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Could you speak up?
[49:08.880 --> 49:10.260] [SPEAKER_12]: You seem to be getting lower.
[49:10.560 --> 49:11.100] [SPEAKER_12]: Can you speak up?
[49:11.280 --> 49:12.120] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm trying to.
[49:12.340 --> 49:12.580] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[49:12.660 --> 49:14.540] [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway, I'll say goodnight and thanks for listening.
[49:14.840 --> 49:15.080] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[49:15.300 --> 49:15.460] [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[49:15.680 --> 49:16.320] [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for calling.
[49:17.280 --> 49:17.420] Whew.
[49:18.720 --> 49:19.440] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, boy.
[49:20.020 --> 49:25.400] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, I don't know, talking to him is like going a couple of stops too far in an express train, you know?
[49:26.780 --> 49:28.500] [SPEAKER_12]: I've got to figure out how to get back downtown.
[49:28.940 --> 49:30.520] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, let's, uh, let's get back.
[49:31.220 --> 49:31.940] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400.
[49:32.480 --> 49:33.100] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[49:35.680 --> 49:38.060] [SPEAKER_12]: I love hearing my voice, but I'd rather hear yours.
[49:38.580 --> 49:39.240] [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, yes, hello.
[49:39.460 --> 49:39.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[49:41.160 --> 49:41.940] [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, can you hear me?
[49:42.060 --> 49:42.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I can hear you fine.
[49:43.080 --> 49:44.460] [SPEAKER_21]: I think there's a radio going on.
[49:44.660 --> 49:45.640] [SPEAKER_21]: I have radio on.
[49:46.080 --> 49:56.920] [SPEAKER_21]: Um, now the thing is, yes, what you say is absolutely true that of course both men and women have the same human qualities and the possibilities to be, uh, nurturing or destructive.
[49:57.400 --> 50:07.860] [SPEAKER_21]: However, I think it's pretty clear that it's nothing to do with gender, but it has everything to do with the system that has governed the world.
[50:08.240 --> 50:23.080] [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, and I think it was Thomas Berry and his Dream of the Earth, which was published by Sierra Book Club, in which he names the four patriarchal establishments which have really destroyed the Earth, whether, or I think, a classical empire, the nation state,
[50:23.280 --> 50:26.700] [SPEAKER_21]: the ecclesiastical establishment, and the modern corporation.
[50:26.960 --> 50:45.140] [SPEAKER_21]: And when you speak of people like Maggie Thatcher and Jean Fitzpatrick, do you think for one minute they would be in the position they are in if they used the feminine qualities, which were separated from the masculine qualities, the feminine qualities were left in the domestic sphere,
[50:45.420 --> 51:01.140] [SPEAKER_21]: the masculine qualities were put in the public sphere, which was competitive, competitiveness, aggressiveness, so-called rationalism, these things that are utterly destroying our world, which we may never survive, and everything that was considering caring,
[51:01.380 --> 51:02.760] [SPEAKER_21]: these were the soft values.
[51:02.960 --> 51:05.320] [SPEAKER_21]: Even the word soft, software was considered.
[51:05.580 --> 51:07.740] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, get tough on this, get tough.
[51:08.000 --> 51:19.760] [SPEAKER_21]: Everything we do is related to the idealization of masculine virtues, the male, totally male God, the punishing, the God who goes and says, reduce your enemies to ashes.
[51:20.180 --> 51:22.500] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, we were dying from this.
[51:22.620 --> 51:27.180] [SPEAKER_21]: And the earth was considered also something that, you know, you had to act upon.
[51:27.420 --> 51:39.580] [SPEAKER_21]: The rational male acts upon the object, which is everything that is inferior, which is because the ideal was the masculine, transcendent mind.
[51:39.580 --> 51:46.780] [SPEAKER_12]: Do you think there's more awareness now of that particular trait?
[51:47.020 --> 51:55.680] [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm going to continue to say a trait in humanity because, you know, males are a part of humanity and so are females.
[51:55.980 --> 52:02.340] [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I think both men and women have had to suppress, you know, their humanity because of the system.
[52:02.800 --> 52:10.660] [SPEAKER_21]: But for some reason, the male qualities were definitely those that were exercised in the public sphere.
[52:11.340 --> 52:20.260] [SPEAKER_21]: And certainly, the female qualities were supposed to be kept in the domestic sphere, that is, the caring, the love, and everything that was devalued.
[52:20.340 --> 52:32.920] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, women's things, you know, everything to do with taking care of plants, even butterflies, all these things upon which we depend because utterly all our history has been mighty makes righty.
[52:33.080 --> 52:35.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, but you're calling those female qualities.
[52:35.820 --> 52:41.860] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, is it possible that those qualities also exist in males, but they're suppressed as well?
[52:42.340 --> 52:42.780] Absolutely!
[52:43.260 --> 52:46.560] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, then maybe they're not female qualities, maybe they're human qualities.
[52:46.740 --> 52:51.560] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, there are many feminine qualities.
[52:52.060 --> 53:07.000] [SPEAKER_21]: But, I mean, for instance, as far as technology goes in science, the quality, I mean, what's her name, Macklin Tuck, who got the Nobel Prize, I mean, she introduced this whole new aspect of science that, in fact, you could use it in a very different way.
[53:07.000 --> 53:15.040] [SPEAKER_21]: but most of the times it is used to support the very aggressive, masculine, mighty makes righty.
[53:15.300 --> 53:16.380] [SPEAKER_21]: And who was it?
[53:16.440 --> 53:19.580] [SPEAKER_21]: The Chalice and the Blade, I think, is incredibly clear.
[53:20.000 --> 53:27.640] [SPEAKER_21]: It is, what's his name, Ashley Montague, and also Daniel Ellsberg, consider it the most important book out.
[53:27.840 --> 53:47.880] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, it's 1988 Random House, or I'm not supposed to say, The Chalice and the Blade, and which Ryan Eisler explains that you see that wherever you have a very, very fascist state, I mean, wherever you have war monitoring, you have the suppression of women.
[53:48.140 --> 54:07.200] [SPEAKER_21]: If you have the right, look at the right-wing religious, establishment in this country, they want to put women back in, you know, back in the home, look at Khomeini, you can go on and on, and down through history, where you had war monitoring, you had suppression of the feminine principle,
[54:07.460 --> 54:29.540] [SPEAKER_21]: as you did in Tristan, what is it, the legend of Tristan and Izole, Mark banished the queen, what was her name, Blanche, Whiteflower, from the kingdom, and so that's why Tristan was called sad, from the French Tristan, and in other words, the male has had to suppress his feminine,
[54:29.840 --> 54:36.660] [SPEAKER_21]: but the artist, very often the male artist, is allowed to express his feminine side, and it's considered all right in society.
[54:36.860 --> 54:47.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you see, I just don't like calling it the feminine side and the masculine side, I just think it's two different sides of humanity, the males tend to suppress one more, and the females tend to suppress one less.
[54:47.980 --> 54:55.060] [SPEAKER_12]: And I think if we stop thinking about them as masculine and feminine traits, then maybe we could actually, you know, not suppress any of them.
[54:55.580 --> 54:56.420] [SPEAKER_12]: You see what I'm saying?
[54:57.060 --> 55:02.100] [SPEAKER_21]: Absolutely, but this is what, unfortunately, they have been defined by culture, and separated.
[55:02.580 --> 55:14.900] [SPEAKER_21]: And one half of humanity has been assigned certain qualities and the other, I mean, the rational man, the rational man, the emotional woman, the active man, the passive woman.
[55:15.060 --> 55:22.740] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, all these certain qualities were put into the male, I mean, by society, and enforced over the centuries.
[55:22.840 --> 55:31.020] [SPEAKER_21]: But the unfortunate thing is in the public sphere, the so-called, so-called male qualities have been idealized and exercised.
[55:31.160 --> 55:32.860] [SPEAKER_21]: And in the church, I mean, we have a God.
[55:33.020 --> 55:35.920] [SPEAKER_21]: You can't expect the people to be better than their God.
[55:36.140 --> 55:39.640] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, we've had, a real estate agent as a God.
[55:39.880 --> 55:46.940] [SPEAKER_21]: We've had a God who says, go take, I mean, we all came over, grabbed the land from the Indians.
[55:46.940 --> 55:54.360] [SPEAKER_21]: We didn't listen to the wonderful Chief Seattle who said, the human being did not create the web of life is but a strand in it.
[55:54.740 --> 56:17.140] [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, we've had, the God was in the image of the male, so-called male qualities, the aggressive, punishing, God, you know, and until we outgrow, I mean, we're maturing, we're maturing, and we're coming, we're going to come to the fullness, you know,
[56:17.220 --> 56:17.860] [SPEAKER_21]: of humanity.
[56:18.340 --> 56:26.460] [SPEAKER_21]: But the only thing that's, I mean, our consciousness is raising every second, but what is frightening is we may not have time because, you see, of what we've done to the planet.
[56:26.600 --> 56:27.000] [SPEAKER_12]: Of course.
[56:27.000 --> 56:43.980] [SPEAKER_21]: that's, that's, I mean, we've got to forget, as somebody said, there's going to be this very interesting, it's called Religion and Ecology up at Wainwright House where they're getting people from all the different religions and they're saying, how is it that when there was the mother,
[56:44.740 --> 57:00.560] [SPEAKER_21]: the mother goddess, when there was the goddess, there was a love and respect of the earth, I mean, the way the Indians had such respect, they realized their utter dependency on it, and then suddenly the Judeo-Christian God, and these are all people from different religions,
[57:00.880 --> 57:09.700] [SPEAKER_21]: came in, and then the human became the center of the universe, the absolute center of the universe and the measure of all things.
[57:10.020 --> 57:27.560] [SPEAKER_21]: And this, again, is the dominant superior, the dominant inferior model, which says that, well, since I'm the stronger, then you disappear, but the beauty of it is that the butterflies and the wigglies and the squirmies that were here before us, we depend on utterly.
[57:27.720 --> 57:28.800] [SPEAKER_21]: We can't crush them.
[57:29.140 --> 57:32.760] [SPEAKER_21]: We can't crush what's weaker than us, but we utterly depend on.
[57:32.820 --> 57:40.040] [SPEAKER_21]: And this is what we will see, that the things that couldn't even speak back, the silent things of the world, it is on them that our destiny depends.
[57:40.040 --> 57:54.120] [SPEAKER_21]: And I think this will be an incredibly enlightening and sobering experience for us to realize that, no, we are, we can destroy things, but we will lose.
[57:54.320 --> 58:06.380] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, the very fact that the strong want to destroy the weak means that the strong are afraid of the weak, of what they could do if they ever actually got their way.
[58:07.100 --> 58:07.720] [SPEAKER_12]: You know?
[58:09.200 --> 58:17.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess our caller isn't with us anymore, but, yeah, that's a very good point, and I think a lot of people are going to have to stand up and be counted.
[58:17.960 --> 58:23.040] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, you can't change, you can't grow just by sitting in a chair.
[58:23.900 --> 58:24.440] [SPEAKER_12]: You know?
[58:24.580 --> 58:45.780] [SPEAKER_12]: You grow and you change by getting out there, growing, changing, talking, yelling, making change, and people are going to get arrested, people are going to get hurt, some people are going to die, but it's part of the ongoing human struggle, something that always This has to be going on.
[58:46.780 --> 58:49.980] [SPEAKER_12]: And sitting back and doing nothing.
[58:50.560 --> 58:51.660] [SPEAKER_12]: Who was it that said?
[58:51.820 --> 58:54.600] [SPEAKER_12]: All it takes is for great men to be silent.
[58:56.180 --> 58:59.000] [SPEAKER_12]: And horrible things will happen.
[58:59.780 --> 59:03.420] [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400, we have a few minutes left, and use is up at 11 o'clock.
[59:03.900 --> 59:08.320] [SPEAKER_12]: Margo Adler's coming in at 11.45, and you're listening to WBAI.
[59:08.520 --> 59:09.180] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[59:09.180 --> 59:10.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, hi.
[59:10.420 --> 59:14.660] [SPEAKER_08]: This is Professor Al Moses, and I'd like to state my views on the environment.
[59:15.080 --> 59:15.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, go ahead.
[59:16.420 --> 59:23.280] [SPEAKER_08]: First of all, in reference to your last caller, I'm a modern, aggressive male, and damn proud of it.
[59:23.580 --> 59:29.200] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, on the environment, do you know that every 40,000 years, we have an ice age on this planet?
[59:29.520 --> 59:30.160] [SPEAKER_12]: Are we due?
[59:30.460 --> 59:31.360] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, that's right.
[59:31.520 --> 59:31.820] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, boy.
[59:31.860 --> 59:32.500] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a fact.
[59:32.860 --> 59:37.320] [SPEAKER_08]: And the greenhouse effect will actually save us from the ice age.
[59:37.320 --> 59:39.220] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, wait just one minute here.
[59:39.280 --> 59:45.200] [SPEAKER_12]: So you're saying that we should continue to spew pollutants into the air because that's going to save us from the ice age?
[59:45.340 --> 59:46.080] [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[59:46.880 --> 59:47.480] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, okay.
[59:47.620 --> 59:48.880] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess that makes a lot of sense.
[59:48.960 --> 59:50.000] [SPEAKER_12]: Any other suggestions?
[59:50.400 --> 59:52.980] [SPEAKER_08]: And now about this hole in the ozone.
[59:53.240 --> 59:53.560] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[59:53.740 --> 59:57.900] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, they say that the hole in the ozone will create mutation.
[59:58.220 --> 01:00:00.260] [SPEAKER_08]: They give mutation a bad name.
[01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:01.680] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, they certainly do because...
[01:00:01.680 --> 01:00:02.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Mutation is actually positive.
[01:00:03.120 --> 01:00:07.060] [SPEAKER_08]: If it wasn't for mutation, we'd all be the simplest single-cell animals.
[01:00:07.060 --> 01:00:08.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Still living in the ocean.
[01:00:08.720 --> 01:00:09.340] [SPEAKER_08]: Did you know that?
[01:00:09.560 --> 01:00:11.640] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you got a definite point there.
[01:00:11.700 --> 01:00:13.900] [SPEAKER_12]: The more I look around me today, the more I pray for mutations.
[01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:14.860] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:00:15.440 --> 01:00:15.680] [SPEAKER_12]: Hello.
[01:00:15.940 --> 01:00:16.440] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:18.360] [SPEAKER_07]: It's hard to follow a call like that.
[01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:19.880] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you're going to have to try.
[01:00:20.180 --> 01:00:21.340] [SPEAKER_07]: This is Rich from Long Island City.
[01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:21.900] [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[01:00:22.080 --> 01:00:23.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I guess you're still there, then.
[01:00:24.220 --> 01:00:26.440] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking out the window now, hoping I don't hear a boom or something.
[01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:28.240] [SPEAKER_12]: Is there a lot of activity out there?
[01:00:28.560 --> 01:00:29.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's...
[01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:41.720] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, since he won't hang up the phone, I'll hang up the phone, and that will make it more dramatic.
[01:00:41.720 --> 01:00:44.060] [SPEAKER_12]: We'll all wonder what happened to Rich from Long Island City.
[01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:47.160] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I felt the vibration from that.
[01:00:47.300 --> 01:00:48.660] [SPEAKER_12]: It must have just hit New York.
[01:00:49.060 --> 01:00:49.420] [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[01:00:50.200 --> 01:00:50.780] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:00:52.640 --> 01:00:53.380] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, don't worry.
[01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:53.940] [SPEAKER_12]: We were only kidding.
[01:00:54.080 --> 01:00:54.400] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:00:55.820 --> 01:00:56.940] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess he fainted.
[01:00:57.080 --> 01:00:57.340] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, well.
[01:00:57.740 --> 01:00:58.300] [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:00:58.580 --> 01:00:58.820] [SPEAKER_19]: Hello.
[01:00:59.120 --> 01:00:59.640] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:00:59.820 --> 01:01:00.060] [SPEAKER_19]: Hi.
[01:01:14.860 --> 01:01:15.440] [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening, I'm here.
[01:01:15.660 --> 01:01:15.840] [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:19.320] [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I think you have to act a certain way to get where they got in this world.
[01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:19.580] [SPEAKER_19]: Can I just...
[01:01:19.580 --> 01:01:25.800] [SPEAKER_19]: So just using those examples, I think, is maybe what turned off so many people and maybe kind of raised their ire towards you.
[01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:28.040] [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, first of all, if I could just say one thing.
[01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:28.440] [SPEAKER_12]: What?
[01:01:28.580 --> 01:01:30.000] [SPEAKER_12]: What kind of phone are you using?
[01:01:30.060 --> 01:01:30.660] [SPEAKER_12]: You've got the...
[01:01:30.660 --> 01:01:32.680] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it sounds like you're in the studio.
[01:01:33.340 --> 01:01:33.640] [SPEAKER_19]: Nope.
[01:01:34.180 --> 01:01:35.460] [SPEAKER_12]: It's a really cheap phone.
[01:01:35.500 --> 01:01:36.340] [SPEAKER_12]: You've got a great...
[01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:38.260] [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it sounds like you're right here.
[01:01:38.640 --> 01:01:41.400] [SPEAKER_12]: But anyway, to get back to what you were saying, yes.
[01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:44.900] [SPEAKER_12]: You're saying living in a man's world, but I think that's the problem.
[01:01:44.900 --> 01:01:48.560] [SPEAKER_12]: If you keep considering it a man's world, you know, it's never going to be your world.
[01:01:48.680 --> 01:01:50.860] [SPEAKER_19]: I can't walk down the street without being afraid, but my boyfriend can.
[01:01:51.100 --> 01:02:01.860] [SPEAKER_19]: And it is a man's world when George Bush is in the White House and he can tell me that I can't have an abortion, or he can tell a woman who's raped that the federal government isn't going to pay for an abortion, or on and on and on.
[01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:03.960] [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, just be realistic about it.
[01:02:04.060 --> 01:02:13.560] [SPEAKER_19]: You know, I think what you're saying about men and women being equal is good, and that you don't want to stereotype men into being aggressors and women into being emotional, hysterical, and everything.
[01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:18.680] [SPEAKER_19]: But I think you do have to face up to the power relationships that are very real in the world.
[01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:22.380] [SPEAKER_12]: Right, but that doesn't mean resigning yourself to the fact that you can't change it.
[01:02:22.620 --> 01:02:23.520] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, absolutely not.
[01:02:23.520 --> 01:02:24.500] [SPEAKER_12]: That's not a fact at all.
[01:02:24.520 --> 01:02:31.340] [SPEAKER_19]: And I think it would be great, you know, someday when little boys aren't taught to play with war toys and little girls aren't taught to read books about becoming housewives.
[01:02:31.520 --> 01:02:33.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Right, but you can start those days now, you see.
[01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:35.820] [SPEAKER_19]: Little boys and little girls are socialized differently.
[01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:44.500] [SPEAKER_12]: Right, but the people you come in contact with, the friends that you know and the people that you speak to, you can influence them, you can talk to them, you know.
[01:02:44.580 --> 01:02:48.920] [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't have to be that way with your circle, and perhaps your circle will merge with other circles.
[01:02:49.080 --> 01:02:50.000] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, we have to start it.
[01:02:50.080 --> 01:02:51.360] [SPEAKER_12]: It's not going to be started for us.
[01:02:51.460 --> 01:02:52.020] [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, I agree.
[01:02:52.160 --> 01:02:57.220] [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I think it's kind of a question of semantics, just what I'm arguing with you over.
[01:02:57.220 --> 01:03:08.400] [SPEAKER_19]: And I just wanted to recommend a book in a different voice by Carol Gilligan, which talks about how little girls and women are socialized to be more cooperative in little books.