Off The Hook - 1990-05-17

[00:02.320 --> 00:04.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: It had officially served the U.S.
[00:05.120 --> 00:12.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: notice that the current lease would be terminated and not renewed, but did not rule out the possibility of a new agreement.
[00:13.620 --> 00:19.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Rafael Alunan, spokesperson for the Philippines, sees the issue as one of national sovereignty.
[00:19.940 --> 00:24.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Alunan talked about the 1947 agreement, which is currently in effect, called the NBA.
[00:24.800 --> 00:30.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: We viewed the 1947 NBA as a vestige of the colonial era.
[00:31.240 --> 00:38.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was forged at the time when we had just gained our independence, and therefore we were in that gray area, gray shade.
[00:39.020 --> 00:40.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were in transition.
[00:40.680 --> 00:54.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I suppose it's looked upon by many of us, many Filipinos, to be supposedly defective agreement that impinged on our sovereignty and our independence.
[00:55.180 --> 00:57.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Tuesday, the Philippines said the U.S.
[00:57.460 --> 01:02.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: had failed to pay over $200 million in compensation promised under the current agreement.
[01:03.240 --> 01:04.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: While the U.S.
[01:04.420 --> 01:17.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: agrees the compensation has fallen short of what was promised in the agreement, they say the deal was based on the executive branch's best efforts to get the money, and that Congress decides the actual amount to be paid out.
[01:17.700 --> 01:21.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Philippines responded that the U.S.' best efforts were not enough.
[01:21.800 --> 01:23.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: The U.S.
[01:23.200 --> 01:28.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: spokesman said Special Negotiator Richard Armitage would like to downplay something as petty as money.
[01:29.060 --> 01:39.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: The United States panel, headed by Special Negotiator Richard Armitage, provided our Philippine colleagues with a respectful hearing as befits friends.
[01:39.600 --> 01:53.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: The United States, for its part, emphasized its view that it had lived up to its commitments under the 1988 review and is continuing to do so.
[01:54.520 --> 01:58.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mr. Armitage emphasized, too, that he is not an accountant.
[01:58.840 --> 02:10.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: He does not stand next to a cash register when conducting foreign relations, and he does not put a price tag on Philippine honor or sovereignty.
[02:11.320 --> 02:15.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Philippines says that the issue of compensation cannot be resolved.
[02:15.680 --> 02:17.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: The talks cannot proceed.
[02:17.780 --> 02:19.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: There's speculation the U.S.
[02:19.560 --> 02:23.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: will offer food aid and used military equipment to make up the shortfall.
[02:23.800 --> 02:28.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: An announcement is expected tomorrow, the last day of this round of talks.
[02:28.840 --> 02:32.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Meanwhile, the clamor in the streets for the withdrawal of the bases goes on.
[02:33.580 --> 02:38.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Organized labor and students were joined by Catholic nuns in the most recent protest.
[02:38.640 --> 02:41.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: At such a protest rally in front of the U.S.
[02:41.700 --> 02:46.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Embassy earlier this week, a student leader talked about why her group opposes the bases.
[02:47.020 --> 02:55.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can see that through the military bases they can intervene in our economic, political, and cultural matters, especially in our government.
[02:55.600 --> 03:10.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: We are like, Cori Aquino is like a puppet that implements policies that are of imperialist ideas, and they are dictated by the IMF World Bank.
[03:10.460 --> 03:11.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Groups say the U.S.
[03:11.700 --> 03:25.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: may be storing nuclear weapons on Philippine soil, that the bases encourage prostitution in the towns surrounding the facilities, and that the presence of the bases actually causes tension rather than ensuring peace and security.
[03:25.740 --> 03:35.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: One thing for certain, negotiations concerning the bases have caused tension, which does not show signs of letting up over the long, hot Manila summer ahead.
[03:36.100 --> 03:39.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: Teresa Sevin, Pacifica Radio News, Manila.
[03:46.080 --> 03:49.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're listening to the news on WBAI New York.
[03:49.780 --> 03:52.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Amy Goodman, and again, tonight's top story.
[03:52.380 --> 04:06.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: Joseph Fama has been convicted of second-degree murder with depraved indifference to human life, but acquitted of intentional murder and the slaying of Yusuf Hawkins, who was confronted by a gang of bat-wielding white youths on August 23, 1989, and shot to death.
[04:06.520 --> 04:13.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Fama was also convicted of one count of first-degree riot, three counts of unlawful imprisonment, three counts of menacing, and three counts of discrimination.
[04:15.660 --> 04:20.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to WBAI, Community Radio in New York.
[04:20.400 --> 04:29.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just have a few more minutes to go here on the rebroadcast of the evening news, which was brought to you in part live tonight, so that I can ask for your support.
[04:29.740 --> 04:32.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400 is the number to call.
[04:33.120 --> 04:38.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is my last chance to ask you to support the late-night news rebroadcast.
[04:38.280 --> 04:41.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: If this is a broadcast that is important to you, please pledge your support.
[04:41.600 --> 04:42.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let us know.
[04:42.560 --> 04:47.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: With a contribution of $45, you can become a member of WBAI for a year.
[04:47.420 --> 04:49.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: Get the folio every month here of WBAI.
[04:49.780 --> 04:58.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: And tonight I'm offering a potpourri of premiums, a few of the premiums we've offered during the news, premiums that have gone very well.
[04:58.600 --> 05:06.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking you to call us in now and pledge your support to WBAI on this very important night, the night of the Fama verdict.
[05:07.100 --> 05:15.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: So far, Keith Mandela's jury has not come up with a verdict, and they have said they were deadlocked several times, although the judge has sent them back to continue deliberating.
[05:15.920 --> 05:18.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're now sequestered in the hotel and will continue tomorrow.
[05:18.660 --> 05:22.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see if that jury ends up in a hung jury.
[05:23.460 --> 05:33.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, as you know, Joseph Fama, if you've been listening at all tonight, has been convicted of second-degree murder with depraved indifference to human life and acquitted of intentional murder.
[05:33.720 --> 05:35.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[05:35.500 --> 05:36.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just a few minutes.
[05:36.360 --> 05:40.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: A call-in tonight is a call-in for the kind of programming we did all night tonight.
[05:40.280 --> 05:45.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you got a chance to hear it earlier, but just after the news when the verdict came in, we opened the phones until 9.30.
[05:45.860 --> 05:47.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: We spoke with attorney Colin Moore.
[05:47.460 --> 05:54.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: We spoke with attorney Norman Siegel of the New York Civil Liberties Union, and we had people, listeners, calling in, you, voicing your opinion.
[05:55.240 --> 05:56.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: That is community radio.
[05:56.700 --> 06:02.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: That is a response in times like these, times like tonight, when a verdict comes down.
[06:02.800 --> 06:05.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: We want to open the airwaves to you.
[06:05.560 --> 06:08.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that really no one else does.
[06:08.320 --> 06:14.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you flipped around the dial earlier tonight until 9.30, there was no one else getting this kind of reaction.
[06:14.400 --> 06:16.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[06:16.280 --> 06:20.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you support this kind of radio, your radio station, give us a call now.
[06:20.400 --> 06:31.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: I turned on the TV at 8.30 and 9 and saw nothing, no coverage of Bensonhurst, because the coverage happened when the verdict came down, and then there was the 11 o'clock news or the 10 o'clock local news, and it happened again.
[06:31.360 --> 06:36.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we brought you continued coverage and a chance to interact, to talk about it, to vent your feelings.
[06:36.580 --> 06:38.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[06:38.320 --> 06:39.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's community radio at its best.
[06:39.760 --> 06:42.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you support that kind of radio, please give us a call now.
[06:42.640 --> 06:44.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me tell you some of the premiums we're offering tonight.
[06:44.900 --> 06:47.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're offering for $55 Race and the Media.
[06:47.920 --> 06:54.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a tract by Carl Ginsberg, CBS Evening News producer, talking about how the media deals with race.
[06:54.660 --> 07:10.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Going back to the Moynihan Report and a look at the black family in the United States from the perspective of Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and how that has helped shape the media's view of race relations in this city and in this country.
[07:11.060 --> 07:12.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[07:13.000 --> 07:14.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: There is anyone on the line?
[07:15.080 --> 07:17.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: There are no people calling in right now.
[07:17.140 --> 07:18.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking for your support.
[07:18.580 --> 07:24.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: This late night, May 17, 1990, Thursday night, our last chance to hear from you on the late night evening news.
[07:24.640 --> 07:31.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: If this is a program that you listen to, that you rely on for information, even for some information, please give us a call now.
[07:31.860 --> 07:35.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: For a contribution of $60, you can get one of a number of books.
[07:35.360 --> 07:39.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: The Terrorism Industry, the experts and institutions that shape our view of terror.
[07:39.520 --> 07:41.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just out through a lot of legal hassles.
[07:41.740 --> 07:42.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: It has finally been published.
[07:43.080 --> 07:46.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it's almost as much as a contribution to become a member of WBAI.
[07:46.760 --> 07:51.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're offering that for a contribution of $60, just $15 over our regular premium.
[07:51.540 --> 07:52.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: The Terrorism Industry.
[07:52.740 --> 07:54.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's one listener calling in right now.
[07:54.260 --> 07:55.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for that call.
[07:55.560 --> 08:01.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll read you from the back of this book by Praise for the Terrorism Industry by Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
[08:01.860 --> 08:13.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: He writes, We've wondered why it was that Dr. Savimbi's UNITA in Angola and the Contras in Nicaragua were freedom fighters, lionized especially by President Reagan's White House and the conservative right wing of the U.S., whereas our liberation movements,
[08:13.880 --> 08:18.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: such as the African National Congress and the Pan-African Congress, were invariably castigated as terrorist movements.
[08:19.220 --> 08:26.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: This book confirms our suspicions, our suspicions that there was a coherent, well-thought-out policy by the West to exercise a selective morality.
[08:26.800 --> 08:30.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a searing indictment of what the authors have called The Terrorism Industry.
[08:30.420 --> 08:39.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: In a well-documented, thoroughly-researched scholarly study, the authors have demonstrated the terrorism industry has been very much needed in the West as a cover for its own activities and crimes.
[08:40.080 --> 08:45.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that is Praise for the Terrorism Industry, the book we're offering tonight from Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
[08:45.820 --> 08:54.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: For a contribution of $60, you can get The Terrorism Industry, The Experts and Institutions That Shape Our View of Terror, by Edward Herman and Jerry O'Sullivan.
[08:54.520 --> 08:57.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're also offering The Fate of the Forest for a contribution of $60.
[08:58.300 --> 09:04.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's by co-authors Alexander Coburn and Susanna Hecht, developers, destroyers, and defenders of the Amazon.
[09:05.040 --> 09:10.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: A beautiful book, yours, autographed by the authors, 212-279-3400.
[09:10.320 --> 09:11.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And finally, a book we offered tonight.
[09:12.000 --> 09:18.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just as the verdict was coming down, an interview we did not know that the Joseph Fama verdict would be coming down, we had Larry White come into the studio.
[09:18.780 --> 09:26.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: For a contribution of $60, you can get the book, Merchants of Death, The American Tobacco Industry, the last time we're offering this on the late night news.
[09:26.500 --> 09:28.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: The marathon ends on Saturday.
[09:29.020 --> 09:37.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: This, for a contribution of $60, you can find out about a product in this country that kills 400,000 people annually.
[09:37.640 --> 09:43.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's 1,000 people a day dying of smoking-related diseases.
[09:43.760 --> 09:44.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's incomprehensible.
[09:45.540 --> 09:48.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: 400,000 is more people than died in all U.S.
[09:48.160 --> 09:48.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: wars.
[09:48.940 --> 09:50.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[09:50.880 --> 09:51.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[09:51.560 --> 09:52.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge your support to WBAI.
[09:53.080 --> 09:55.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Find out about the American tobacco industry.
[09:56.160 --> 09:57.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[09:57.840 --> 09:59.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: This book is by Larry White.
[09:59.220 --> 10:00.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: Very important book.
[10:00.360 --> 10:09.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: Not easy to get now, he feels, because his publishing house, owned by the Hearst Corporation, which owns many magazines that have cigarette advertising, did not want to promote the book that much.
[10:09.960 --> 10:11.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was put out in 1988.
[10:11.540 --> 10:12.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Very difficult to get now.
[10:12.900 --> 10:14.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Only can you order it through a bookstore.
[10:14.220 --> 10:15.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can get it for a contribution of $60.
[10:15.840 --> 10:17.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: We just have two more minutes to go.
[10:17.720 --> 10:21.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Most importantly tonight, the verdict in one of the Bensonhurst cases.
[10:21.680 --> 10:23.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: There are still seven more verdicts to go.
[10:23.840 --> 10:27.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: This was the verdict on Joseph Fama, who has been convicted of second-degree murder.
[10:29.860 --> 10:31.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[10:31.660 --> 10:32.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking for your support.
[10:32.780 --> 10:33.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please call in.
[10:33.600 --> 10:34.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's two listeners calling in.
[10:34.900 --> 10:35.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make it five.
[10:36.380 --> 10:38.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[10:38.380 --> 10:42.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: The last chance you have to call in to support the late-night evening news.
[10:42.480 --> 10:44.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is this a program you want to hear?
[10:44.240 --> 10:46.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is truly a vote for this programming.
[10:46.480 --> 10:50.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: When programming decisions are made here, these kind of figures are looked at.
[10:50.680 --> 10:51.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Who's calling in?
[10:51.440 --> 10:52.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's three listeners calling in.
[10:52.680 --> 10:53.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
[10:53.440 --> 10:54.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make it seven.
[10:54.600 --> 10:56.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: In this last few minutes, let's make it seven.
[10:56.980 --> 10:58.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please give us a call now.
[10:58.400 --> 11:00.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[11:00.720 --> 11:01.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Give us a call.
[11:01.460 --> 11:03.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge your support to WBAI.
[11:03.340 --> 11:04.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: We need to hear from you now.
[11:04.800 --> 11:06.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[11:07.160 --> 11:11.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein just stepping in here to remind folks we also need volunteers.
[11:11.700 --> 11:16.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why the phones are ringing for a bit longer than they should because we need people to answer the phones.
[11:16.660 --> 11:20.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: So if you want to volunteer some time to WBAI, give us a call.
[11:21.180 --> 11:21.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[11:22.600 --> 11:23.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: 279-3400.
[11:23.500 --> 11:27.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: And Emmanuel Goldstein will be having his special on in just a minute.
[11:27.120 --> 11:30.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: The fifth corner, a special on computer hackers and the First Amendment.
[11:30.460 --> 11:32.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[11:32.280 --> 11:33.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge your support to WBAI.
[11:33.720 --> 11:35.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: We just have 30 seconds to go.
[11:36.040 --> 11:37.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please, we need to hear from you now.
[11:37.640 --> 11:39.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make it five listeners calling in.
[11:39.240 --> 11:40.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: No kidding.
[11:40.260 --> 11:47.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want the late-night evening news rebroadcast sometimes brought to you like tonight, partly live, when we have a breaking story like the Joseph Fama story?
[11:47.960 --> 11:49.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: Verdict in the Joseph Fama case.
[11:49.580 --> 11:56.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Joseph Fama has been found guilty of second-degree murder with showing depraved indifference to human life but acquitted of intentional murder.
[11:57.140 --> 11:58.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: 25 years to life.
[11:58.560 --> 12:00.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: His sentencing is June 11th.
[12:00.140 --> 12:02.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: We still have yet to hear from the Keith Mondello jury.
[12:02.320 --> 12:10.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you appreciate the coverage we've been doing, Julie Cohen down there tonight, Dred Scott Keyes down there tonight, inside the courthouse, outside the courthouse, give us a call now.
[12:10.460 --> 12:12.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[12:12.180 --> 12:14.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: Usually we save this kind of news for the next day.
[12:14.300 --> 12:19.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't stay late night to bring you more information than the news at 6 o'clock on the rebroadcast tonight.
[12:19.540 --> 12:21.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was too important to go home.
[12:21.440 --> 12:37.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking for you to support WBAI, your community-supported station, the only station tonight that stayed on for two more hours after the news to continue to bring you coverage of the Bensonhurst case, to open the phone so that you could call in and express your opinion and talk with lawyers who could explain what the verdicts were about.
[12:38.280 --> 12:40.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[12:40.180 --> 12:41.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just 30 more seconds.
[12:41.460 --> 12:43.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[12:43.180 --> 12:44.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's four listeners calling in.
[12:44.540 --> 12:45.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make it six.
[12:45.800 --> 12:47.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[12:47.840 --> 12:49.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can get a coffee mug for $55.
[12:49.560 --> 12:54.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can also get Race in the Media by CBS Evening Night news producer Carl Ginsberg.
[12:54.800 --> 12:56.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: A look at how the media covers race issues.
[12:57.060 --> 12:58.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Five listeners calling in.
[12:58.440 --> 12:59.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Very, very good.
[12:59.780 --> 13:01.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very, very much.
[13:01.100 --> 13:04.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: We want seven listeners calling in as we go on to Emmanuel Goldstein.
[13:04.580 --> 13:06.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[13:06.680 --> 13:10.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Emmanuel Goldstein who actually comes from out in Stony Brook saying that he tuned in tonight.
[13:11.180 --> 13:12.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what did you hear, Emmanuel?
[13:13.220 --> 13:19.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it was great to be able to turn to WBAI and know that I would hear something about a breaking story.
[13:19.640 --> 13:23.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know if we've always had that dependability in the past.
[13:23.120 --> 13:27.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have our listeners to thank for that because without their support we can't do these kind of things.
[13:28.460 --> 13:41.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: For us to send a reporter out there to the scene of the trial and to report back it takes a lot of coordination and we need to have this place operating smoothly in order for us to do things like that in the future.
[13:41.880 --> 13:44.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the place will operate very smoothly with your support.
[13:44.920 --> 13:46.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[13:46.680 --> 13:47.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go on to the fifth corner.
[13:48.060 --> 13:48.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: We need to hear from you.
[13:49.160 --> 13:51.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please keep calling in as we go on with our next show.
[13:51.660 --> 13:53.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[13:53.740 --> 13:55.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge your support to WBAI.
[13:55.400 --> 14:00.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let us know the evening news, the late night evening news is a program you'd like to see continuing here.
[14:00.320 --> 14:02.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[14:02.160 --> 14:05.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Your financial input right now is a vote of support for this program.
[14:05.700 --> 14:07.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[14:07.900 --> 14:09.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge your support if you can pledge one or two hundred dollars.
[14:10.140 --> 14:12.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much as we go on to our next show.
[14:12.800 --> 14:14.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[14:15.100 --> 14:18.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: A sixty dollar contribution and you can ask what the premiums are that we're offering tonight.
[14:18.880 --> 14:32.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: Merchants of Death, the American Tobacco Industry by Larry White, The Fate of the Forest, Developers, Destroyers, and Defenders of the Amazon, signed by Alexander Coburn and Susanna Hecht, its authors, or the terrorism industry, the experts and institutions that shape our view of Tever.
[14:33.200 --> 14:38.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Find out about some of the backgrounds of some of those people you see on TV, those so-called experts on terrorism.
[14:38.920 --> 14:39.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: Who are they?
[14:39.500 --> 14:40.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Where do they come from?
[14:40.360 --> 14:44.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: How many years did they work for the CIA before they went on the air without being identified as such?
[14:44.600 --> 14:48.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is a story Edward Herman and Jerry O'Sullivan give you in tremendous detail.
[14:48.160 --> 14:49.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Very well documented book.
[14:49.880 --> 14:51.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: 212-279-3400.
[14:51.840 --> 14:54.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: All of these, each one for a contribution of $60.
[14:54.660 --> 14:55.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please pledge your support.
[14:55.940 --> 14:56.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge whatever you can.
[14:57.000 --> 14:59.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you can pledge $25, thank you so much.
[14:59.140 --> 15:00.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: You still become a member of WBAI.
[15:00.920 --> 15:01.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: We need your help.
[15:01.960 --> 15:10.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're going to go on to Emmanuel Goldstein, The Fifth Corner, his special on computer hackers and the First Amendment.
[15:11.160 --> 15:11.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
[15:11.740 --> 15:12.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Have a good evening.
[15:12.500 --> 15:14.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Amy Goodman and keep calling in.
[15:14.520 --> 15:15.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks very much, Amy.
[15:16.020 --> 15:17.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is The Fifth Corner.
[15:17.440 --> 15:20.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, that phone number 212-279-3400.
[15:20.600 --> 15:22.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's very important that we hear from you at this point.
[15:29.460 --> 15:32.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[15:33.280 --> 15:36.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[15:37.000 --> 15:39.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[15:39.940 --> 15:44.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you must try, try and try, try and try.
[15:46.340 --> 15:48.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: You'll succeed at last.
[15:56.220 --> 15:58.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Persecution, you must fear.
[15:59.200 --> 16:02.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Win and lose, you've got to get your share.
[16:02.920 --> 16:05.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Got your mindset on a dream.
[16:06.500 --> 16:09.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it, no harm it may seem.
[16:10.160 --> 16:13.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[16:13.860 --> 16:16.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[16:16.720 --> 16:20.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[16:20.640 --> 16:25.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you must try, try and try, try and try.
[16:26.740 --> 16:29.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: You'll succeed at last.
[16:30.920 --> 16:33.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know it.
[16:35.900 --> 16:38.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Rome was not built in a day.
[16:39.940 --> 16:42.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Opposition will come your way.
[16:43.320 --> 16:46.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the heart of the battle you see.
[16:47.060 --> 16:47.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the heart of the battle you see.
[16:47.560 --> 16:47.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: The battle you see.
[16:47.640 --> 16:50.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's the sweeter, the victory now.
[16:50.740 --> 16:53.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can get it if you really want.
[17:32.410 --> 17:39.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Music plays Try, try and try.
[17:40.570 --> 17:42.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: You'll succeed at last.
[17:48.900 --> 17:50.420]  Don't I show it?
[17:57.500 --> 18:03.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you're tuned in to The Fifth Corner here on WBAI in New York.
[18:03.420 --> 18:05.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have something very special for you tonight.
[18:06.680 --> 18:22.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
[18:22.720 --> 18:23.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you know what that is?
[18:24.160 --> 18:25.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the First Amendment, folks.
[18:25.800 --> 18:27.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the whole thing.
[18:27.900 --> 18:31.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Very simple, very short, and very much in danger.
[18:33.340 --> 18:35.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you'll find out how.
[18:35.760 --> 18:43.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: With regards to computer hackers, the Secret Service, the First Amendment, and how it's all going to affect you.
[18:43.300 --> 18:43.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tune in.
[19:03.320 --> 19:16.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: The First Amendment This Way It's Purr Looting and Shooting and Killing And Burning Out They're Burning Out Yo' But where do I stand in with this Genie Crossfire?
[19:17.620 --> 19:23.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: On all and all, yes, I know happiness is nowhere on the ground.
[19:23.900 --> 19:30.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: I ain't got no wings to fly on to the sky, yeah.
[19:30.380 --> 19:31.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: But true the powers of power, I電's not the sun, but love thy horror.
[19:32.720 --> 19:35.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: But you're the powers of the most high.
[19:36.540 --> 19:38.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've got to be friends.
[19:39.020 --> 19:43.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm still alive to give your glory.
[19:44.900 --> 19:49.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm still alive to tell my story.
[19:52.440 --> 19:57.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Early, early this morning, I arose from my slumber.
[19:58.040 --> 20:04.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: And when I looked through my belly button window, they were all around, all around.
[20:04.920 --> 20:06.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I see no faces.
[20:06.580 --> 20:10.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: I hear a mouse voices ordering everybody.
[20:10.960 --> 20:12.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just what to do.
[20:13.000 --> 20:14.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can make a move now.
[20:18.160 --> 20:23.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's then I remember Gigi and a baby brother.
[20:24.640 --> 20:27.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: How they would suffer so fast.
[20:27.760 --> 20:29.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm the only breadwinner.
[20:29.800 --> 20:33.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's when I sailed through the fence and over the wall.
[20:33.540 --> 20:36.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And there he was standing so big and tall.
[20:36.820 --> 20:39.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Say, don't make a move as I shoot you.
[20:39.940 --> 20:42.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: He'll never see the dust of my shoes.
[20:43.200 --> 20:45.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: He'll never see the lights of my shoes.
[20:45.820 --> 20:48.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I've got to be friends.
[20:48.420 --> 20:53.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm still alive to give your glory.
[20:54.520 --> 20:59.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm still alive to tell my story.
[21:00.820 --> 21:04.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm still alive to tell my story.
[21:07.160 --> 21:10.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm still alive to tell my story.
[21:13.360 --> 21:15.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: You've all seen the headlines.
[21:15.740 --> 21:17.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: You've all seen the news.
[21:18.960 --> 21:21.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a frightening situation, folks.
[21:22.140 --> 21:23.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Frightening situation.
[21:23.260 --> 21:25.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: 14 state raid breaks hacking rings.
[21:26.680 --> 21:34.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Teenagers arrested for hacking crimes, for breaking into emergency 911 systems.
[21:34.640 --> 21:36.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Newsletters shut down.
[21:36.580 --> 21:38.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: People's homes raided in the middle.
[21:39.140 --> 21:40.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, early morning, anyway.
[21:40.980 --> 21:43.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: At times, you don't want to be raided.
[21:43.980 --> 21:44.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's put it that way.
[21:45.380 --> 21:46.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a lot going on.
[21:46.500 --> 21:48.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot going on throughout the country.
[21:48.800 --> 21:55.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: And most of it is completely unknown to most of us because there's no headlines in it.
[21:55.640 --> 21:58.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: You see the headlines, but you don't get the story.
[21:59.800 --> 22:02.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tonight, we're going to attempt to bring you the story.
[22:02.180 --> 22:08.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have a couple of guests that will attempt to clear things up because they're very much involved in all of this.
[22:08.700 --> 22:10.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what is it that we're talking about?
[22:10.960 --> 22:27.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, possibly the best way to introduce you to the subject, if you're not aware of what's been happening over the last few months, the best way is to look at the newest edition of the Computer Hacker Newsletter called 2600.
[22:28.040 --> 22:32.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a story in the spring issue, which is going to be released tomorrow.
[22:34.620 --> 22:42.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you want to subscribe to this magazine, we're going to be offering a special deal for people that want to support this radio station a little bit later on.
[22:42.580 --> 22:43.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: So keep tuned in for that.
[22:45.500 --> 22:53.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: From the spring edition of 2600 magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, we have an article entitled, For Your Protection.
[22:54.440 --> 23:00.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, folks, it bears listening to you because you may not be a computer hacker.
[23:00.500 --> 23:03.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: You may not be a technological enthusiast.
[23:04.060 --> 23:12.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: You may not even care, but I can guarantee you, at some point, what happens to these people will rub off on you.
[23:12.700 --> 23:14.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make no mistake about that.
[23:15.560 --> 23:16.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[23:16.500 --> 23:23.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: A year ago, we told the stories of Kevin Mitnick and Herbert Zinn, two hackers who had been sent to prison.
[23:23.000 --> 23:26.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was then, and still is today, a very disturbing chain of events.
[23:27.200 --> 23:33.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mischief makers and explorers imprisoned for playing with the wrong toys, and for asking too many questions.
[23:34.420 --> 23:40.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we said at the time that it was important for all hackers to stand up to such gross injustices.
[23:40.580 --> 23:43.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: After all, they couldn't lock us all up.
[23:45.020 --> 23:50.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it now appears that such an endeavor may indeed be on the agendas of some very powerful U.S.
[23:50.600 --> 23:51.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: governmental agencies.
[23:52.080 --> 24:00.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: And even more frightening is the realization that these agencies don't particularly care who or what gets swept up along with the hackers.
[24:01.300 --> 24:04.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: As long as all of the hackers get swept up.
[24:05.160 --> 24:08.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Apparently, we're considered even more of a threat than we had previously supposed.
[24:09.420 --> 24:12.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: In retrospect, this doesn't come as a great deal of a surprise.
[24:12.640 --> 24:16.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, it now seems to make all too much sense.
[24:16.340 --> 24:24.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: You no longer have to be paranoid, or of a particular political mindset, to point to the many parallels that we've all been witness to.
[24:26.580 --> 24:38.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Censorship, clampdowns, voluntary urine tests, lie detectors, handwriting analysis, surveillance cameras, exaggerated crises that invariably lead to curtailed freedoms.
[24:39.700 --> 24:44.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: All of this, together with the overall view that if you're innocent, you've got nothing to hide.
[24:45.220 --> 24:49.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And all made so much more effective through the magic of high technology.
[24:51.160 --> 24:57.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who would you target as the biggest potential roadblock, if not the people who understand the technology at work?
[24:58.680 --> 25:04.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: It appears the biggest threats to the system are those capable of manipulating it.
[25:05.600 --> 25:08.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: What you're about to hear is frightening, plain and simple.
[25:09.200 --> 25:17.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't have to be a hacker to understand this, and the words and ideas are easily translatable to any time and to any culture.
[25:23.700 --> 25:31.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: These words were seen on a computer bulletin board, which, if you're not familiar with the technology, is a device which people call up.
[25:31.940 --> 25:41.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: You take your own computer, and hook it up to a phone line, and make a phone call, and connect to somebody else's computer, and read messages that other people have left there.
[25:41.560 --> 25:43.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hence the term bulletin board.
[25:43.580 --> 25:48.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is a message that appeared on one of those bulletin boards earlier this year.
[25:49.340 --> 25:51.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: We can now expect a crackdown.
[25:51.740 --> 25:55.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just hope that I can pull through this one, and that my friends can also.
[25:55.540 --> 25:59.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the time to watch yourself, no matter what you are into.
[25:59.440 --> 26:03.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Apparently, the government has seen the last straw in their point of view.
[26:03.480 --> 26:05.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think they are going after all the teachers.
[26:06.240 --> 26:14.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so that is where their energies will be put, to stop all hackers, and stop people before they can become threats.
[26:15.980 --> 26:17.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is probably, uh...
[26:18.200 --> 26:23.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We really have no idea who that message was from, because you can't see the person that left it.
[26:23.640 --> 26:26.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: But in all likelihood, it's from somebody under 20 years of age.
[26:26.820 --> 26:41.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: And imagine somebody under 20 years of age, speaking about crackdowns, about the government coming after them, and about crushing of people who are spreading knowledge.
[26:42.980 --> 26:44.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Welcome to America, 1990.
[26:45.700 --> 26:51.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: This was one of the reactions on that computer bulletin board to a series of raids on hackers.
[26:51.100 --> 26:56.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Raids that had started in 1989 and spread rapidly into early 1990.
[26:57.080 --> 27:03.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: The cities of Atlanta, St. Louis, and New York were major targets in what was then an undetermined investigation.
[27:04.700 --> 27:11.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, this in itself wouldn't have been especially alarming, since raids on hackers can almost be defined as commonplace these days.
[27:11.720 --> 27:13.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: But this one was different.
[27:14.080 --> 27:19.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: For the very first time, a hacker newsletter had also been shut down.
[27:19.460 --> 27:23.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, we'll be getting into that aspect of the case a little bit later on.
[27:23.740 --> 27:28.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: But suffice to say that, yes, a newsletter was shut down.
[27:28.720 --> 27:31.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: It wasn't 2600 Magazine.
[27:31.260 --> 27:31.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, not yet.
[27:31.900 --> 27:37.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: They haven't gotten 2600 Magazine yet, but they did get an electronic newsletter.
[27:38.340 --> 27:40.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's an electronic newsletter, you may ask?
[27:40.380 --> 27:47.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, it's the same thing as a regular magazine, except it's something that you read on computer.
[27:48.160 --> 27:55.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: It comes over the phone lines to you, or it comes by diskette, but it's what they call a software magazine.
[27:55.040 --> 27:56.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's the only difference.
[27:56.420 --> 28:01.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: However, that difference was enough to get that magazine shut down.
[28:03.300 --> 28:09.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: People couldn't see the relationship between written words on a computer disk and written words on a piece of paper.
[28:10.280 --> 28:12.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what we're going to be exploring tonight.
[28:12.200 --> 28:16.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: A little bit later on, we'll get more into detail on that.
[28:17.320 --> 28:30.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: But as part of this whole investigation and raids and all that kind of thing, bulletin boards and computer systems all over the nation were raided by the Secret Service.
[28:30.240 --> 28:35.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've now found out that 150 Secret Service agents were involved in this.
[28:35.460 --> 28:36.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: 150.
[28:37.120 --> 28:40.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that rivals any investigation that I've ever heard of.
[28:40.780 --> 28:44.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think computer hackers are getting more attention than the mob these days.
[28:45.060 --> 28:52.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have the press release from Operation Sun Devil, which, again, we'll get into a little bit later on.
[28:53.160 --> 28:57.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: But in Lockport, Illinois, this spring, a strange tale was unfolding.
[28:58.280 --> 29:12.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: The public bulletin board system, known as a public UNIX system, which is, simply put, a much bigger bulletin board system, kind of like a network where people, lots and lots of people, correspond and send mail back and forth.
[29:13.380 --> 29:16.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sort of the bulletin board of the 90s, I guess you'd call it.
[29:16.560 --> 29:28.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, the public UNIX system known as JOLNET, J-O-L-N-E-T, that had been used to transmit certain files that the Secret Service was investigating, that bulletin board had also been seized.
[29:28.780 --> 29:41.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what's particularly odd is that, according to an electronic newsletter known as Telecom Digest, the system operator, Rich Andrews, had been cooperating with federal authorities for over a year.
[29:42.620 --> 29:50.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Andrews found the files in his system nearly two years ago, and he forwarded them to AT&T, and was subsequently contacted by the authorities.
[29:50.800 --> 29:52.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: He cooperated fully.
[29:52.900 --> 29:55.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: So why was his system seized as well?
[29:56.520 --> 30:04.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Andrews claimed it was all part of the investigation, but he added, one way to get hackers is by shutting down the sites they use to distribute stuff.
[30:05.880 --> 30:12.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: The JOLNET raid caused outrage in the bulletin board world, particularly among administrators and users of public UNIX systems.
[30:13.800 --> 30:28.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: A system administrator for a system out in California known as The WELL, Cliff Figalo, said, the assumption that federal agents can seize a system owner's equipment as evidence, in spite of the owner's lack of proven involvement in the alleged illegal activities,
[30:29.420 --> 30:38.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: and regardless of the possibility that the system is part of the owner's livelihood, is scary to me, and should be to anyone responsible for running a system such as this.
[30:40.920 --> 30:46.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there was quite a bit of outrage voiced at that.
[30:47.760 --> 31:00.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there was one really, really amazing aspect to the entire thing that we have to really focus some attention on.
[31:02.640 --> 31:14.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: After the electronic newsletter known as Phrack, and that was a combination of the word FREAK and HACK, FREAK spelled with a PH, as many of you phone phreaks out there know.
[31:15.480 --> 31:30.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: After learning of the Phrack electronic mail surveillance, which is another chapter in this long saga, yes, every bit of mail going to certain people, and every bit of mail coming from certain people was watched and monitored by authorities.
[31:31.640 --> 31:40.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, one of the system operators of a bulletin board in Austin, Texas, known as the Phoenix Project, decided to take action to protect the privacy of his users.
[31:41.140 --> 31:46.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: I will be adding a secure encryption routine into the email, electronic mail, in the next two weeks.
[31:47.060 --> 31:55.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: I haven't decided exactly how to implement it, but it'll let two people exchange mail encrypted by a password only known to the two of them.
[31:55.340 --> 32:00.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, that's to prevent people from looking at private mail.
[32:01.500 --> 32:10.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, these are people that the mainstream press would call computer hackers, discussing how to protect their privacy.
[32:10.980 --> 32:21.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not discussing how to hack, how to break into things, how to protect their privacy, and prevent people from invading it, from reading their mail and seeing things they shouldn't be seeing.
[32:22.500 --> 32:24.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sounds kind of ridiculous, doesn't it?
[32:24.260 --> 32:25.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And computer hackers are concerned with these things.
[32:26.040 --> 32:38.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, folks, that's a lot of what computer hacking is about, figuring out ways to keep your privacy in a world where your privacy is getting more and more precious.
[32:40.380 --> 32:49.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, anyway, to get back to what the system operator on that bulletin board was saying, I'll be adding a secure encryption routine into the email in the next two weeks.
[32:49.700 --> 32:57.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: I haven't decided exactly how to implement it, but it'll let two people exchange mail encrypted by a password only known to the two of them.
[32:58.280 --> 33:00.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, I do not think I am due to be busted.
[33:00.840 --> 33:02.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't do anything but run a board.
[33:02.820 --> 33:04.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Still, there is that possibility.
[33:05.120 --> 33:08.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: I assume that my lines are all tapped until proven otherwise.
[33:09.260 --> 33:17.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is some question to the wisdom of leaving the bulletin board up at all, but I have personally phoned several government investigators and invited them to join us here on the board.
[33:19.020 --> 33:24.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: If, however, I begin to feel that the board is putting me in any kind of danger, I'll pull it down with no notice.
[33:24.740 --> 33:26.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hope everyone understands.
[33:26.140 --> 33:29.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: It looks like it sweeps time again for the folks.
[33:29.520 --> 33:30.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry, for the feds.
[33:31.380 --> 33:33.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Looks like it sweeps time again for the feds.
[33:33.760 --> 33:37.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's hope all of us are still around in six months to talk about it.
[33:39.340 --> 33:41.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: The new security was never implemented.
[33:41.700 --> 33:44.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Phoenix Project was seized within days.
[33:45.060 --> 33:47.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the clampdown intensified still further.
[33:48.280 --> 33:55.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: On March 1st, the offices of Steve Jackson Games, a publishing company in Austin, were raided by the Secret Service.
[33:56.140 --> 34:01.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: According to the Associated Press, the home of the managing editor was also searched.
[34:02.020 --> 34:08.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: The police and Secret Service seized books, manuals, computers, technical equipment, and other documents.
[34:09.580 --> 34:14.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Agents also seized the final draft of a science fiction game written by the company.
[34:14.740 --> 34:23.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: According to the Austin American Statesman, the authorities were trying to determine whether the game was being used as a handbook for computer crime.
[34:25.100 --> 34:33.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Callers to the Illuminati Bulletin Board, which was run by Steve Jackson Games, received the following message after that day.
[34:34.640 --> 34:41.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Before the start of work on March 1st, Steve Jackson Games was visited by agents of the United States Secret Service.
[34:41.540 --> 34:55.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: They searched the building thoroughly, tore open several boxes in the warehouse, broke a few locks, and damaged a couple of filing cabinets, which we would gladly have let them examine had they let us into the building, answered the phone discourteously at best,
[34:55.600 --> 35:03.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: and confiscated some computer equipment, including the computer that the BBS Bulletin Board system was running on at the time.
[35:04.240 --> 35:12.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: So far, we have not received a clear explanation of what the Secret Service was looking for, what they expected to find, or much of anything else.
[35:12.360 --> 35:18.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: We are fairly certain that Steve Jackson Games is not the target of whatever investigation is being conducted.
[35:18.480 --> 35:22.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: In any case, we have done nothing illegal and have nothing whatsoever to hide.
[35:22.560 --> 35:30.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: However, the equipment that was seized is apparently considered to be evidence in whatever they're investigating, so we aren't likely to get it back anytime soon.
[35:30.860 --> 35:32.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could be a month.
[35:32.360 --> 35:33.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could be never.
[35:34.800 --> 35:42.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: To minimize the possibility that this system will be confiscated as well, we have set it up to display this bulletin, and that's all.
[35:43.160 --> 35:45.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is no message base at present.
[35:45.060 --> 35:49.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: We apologize for the inconvenience, and we wish we dared to do more than this.
[35:52.300 --> 36:03.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Apparently, and we'll have this confirmed in just a moment, one of the system operators of the Phoenix Project was also affiliated with Steve Jackson Games, and that was all the authorities needed.
[36:05.360 --> 36:08.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have Steve Jackson with us on the phone.
[36:08.820 --> 36:09.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, are you there?
[36:09.660 --> 36:10.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I am.
[36:10.480 --> 36:10.720]  Hello.
[36:11.020 --> 36:11.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[36:11.300 --> 36:14.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, you heard most of that story, I imagine.
[36:14.500 --> 36:14.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[36:14.880 --> 36:19.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, can you, would you care to point out what exactly happened on March 1st, in your own words?
[36:20.760 --> 36:37.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, I got an early morning phone call from a very upset member of my staff to the effect that, uh, there were, were federal agents searching our building that wouldn't let anybody in.
[36:38.820 --> 36:45.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And over, over the next few hours, what developed was that we were being searched by the Secret Service.
[36:45.820 --> 36:47.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't allowing anyone in the building.
[36:47.900 --> 36:53.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are some, there are some pretty, pretty funny stories about their interactions with our employees as they came up.
[36:53.780 --> 36:58.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: We finally got into the building about, uh, I think about one in the afternoon.
[36:59.220 --> 37:01.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it had been gone through pretty thoroughly.
[37:01.960 --> 37:06.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some, some offices were, were not in bad shape.
[37:06.900 --> 37:12.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some, some areas had been, had been shaken down very thoroughly.
[37:12.260 --> 37:16.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: The, the, the warehouse was a mess, for instance, because they had just gone through it tearing up cartons.
[37:17.300 --> 37:20.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can I, uh, can I just ask one question before you go any further?
[37:20.500 --> 37:22.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tell us something about what Steve Jackson Games is.
[37:22.980 --> 37:23.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of company is it?
[37:23.960 --> 37:24.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, okay.
[37:24.720 --> 37:25.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Begin at the beginning, Steve.
[37:26.160 --> 37:31.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, we publish games, uh, adventure games, uh, role-playing games.
[37:31.200 --> 37:35.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the best-known role-playing game is Dungeons & Dragons, although that's not one of ours.
[37:35.880 --> 37:46.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you've ever seen Dungeons & Dragons, you know the kind of thing that we publish, not just in the fantasy genre, but in, in all different genres.
[37:46.900 --> 37:54.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also publish a game called Illuminati, uh, which is about secret conspiracies to control the world.
[37:55.040 --> 37:58.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the irony of that just comes back and haunts me every day.
[37:58.140 --> 38:02.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that's the game that our bulletin board was named after.
[38:03.100 --> 38:16.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if anyone has read the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Che, or if anyone has seen the, the Church of the Subgenius, then you, you know the kind of humor we're talking about here.
[38:17.440 --> 38:22.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, the Secret Service took an interest in what you were doing, uh, and what was it that they seized?
[38:22.920 --> 38:25.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: They, say, they seized a particular game that you were working on?
[38:25.480 --> 38:31.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they, they seized material out of several of our offices.
[38:31.440 --> 38:40.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: They took two computers from here, and they, they also visited the home of our, our managing editor and took, uh, took his computer.
[38:41.000 --> 38:55.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And when we, when we compared notes and put things together, we realized that they had taken all of the computers that had anything on them for a particular new game that we were producing.
[38:55.800 --> 38:58.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: The name of that game was GURPS Cyberpunk.
[38:59.040 --> 39:02.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: GURPS stands for Generic Universal Role-Playing System.
[39:02.420 --> 39:04.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's our big game.
[39:04.560 --> 39:15.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the GURPS Cyberpunk was supposed to be a, a world book, a, a background gaming book for people interested in the cyberpunk genre.
[39:15.440 --> 39:22.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, cyberpunk is a, a science fiction genre, a high-tech low life.
[39:23.040 --> 39:36.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: It takes high technology and shows what the future will be like if, if that technology is used, uh, in, and often in a very oppressive and inhuman fashion.
[39:37.040 --> 39:43.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Think of the movie Blade Runner or the Max Headroom TV show, and there's some very good video cyberpunk.
[39:43.500 --> 39:46.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Think of the works of William Gibson or Bruce Sterling.
[39:46.640 --> 39:48.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there is great literary cyberpunk.
[39:49.060 --> 40:02.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, one of the significant elements of cyberpunk is computer hacking, usually seen as a way by which the, the heroes hold their own against an oppressive bureaucracy.
[40:02.440 --> 40:06.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although sometimes it's, it's a purely criminal action as well.
[40:06.600 --> 40:11.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, in a cyberpunk future, you can do computer hacking mentally.
[40:11.600 --> 40:15.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can attach your own brain to a computer.
[40:15.420 --> 40:20.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can move mentally into the net and do all kinds of things.
[40:21.160 --> 40:24.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is one of the things that our book was about.
[40:25.000 --> 40:32.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, here we are putting things together and realizing that the only computers that they have taken are the ones with the cyberpunk manuscript on them.
[40:34.140 --> 40:38.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: That they've taken all the backups for those, but they've taken all of the hard copy.
[40:38.480 --> 40:41.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're looking at each other and we're saying, was this what they were after?
[40:41.600 --> 40:47.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we still don't know because they, they adamantly refuse to give us any justification.
[40:47.980 --> 40:53.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: The standard line is, we cannot comment on an investigation in progress.
[40:53.440 --> 40:55.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning, they don't have to explain themselves.
[40:55.060 --> 40:56.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're the Secret Service.
[40:56.640 --> 41:18.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the next day, when I was in their offices with an attorney trying to get at least copies of all the files that they had taken, without which we couldn't stay in business, they gave me a lot of comments about the manual for computer crime, the handbook for computer crime that they said I was publishing.
[41:19.160 --> 41:27.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, I think they didn't like that book and I think they came very close to suppressing it.
[41:27.080 --> 41:34.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, this is very significant because I've been involved in the computer hacking scene for a number of years now.
[41:34.140 --> 41:46.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've seen many, many raids on computer bulletin boards and teenagers who are playing with their computers and making free phone calls perhaps, things like that.
[41:46.100 --> 41:53.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: But this is the first time that I've ever heard of an actual manuscript being seized by the U.S.
[41:53.860 --> 41:58.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: government because they don't like what it's saying in regards to computers.
[41:58.820 --> 42:00.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what appears to have happened here.
[42:01.500 --> 42:03.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it looks like I had the honor of being the first.
[42:04.000 --> 42:07.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hoping to raise enough fuss about it that I'm also the last.
[42:08.040 --> 42:09.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let's talk about that.
[42:09.100 --> 42:16.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, how come this hasn't been splashed all over the newspapers, you know, front page that somebody's manuscript has been seized by the government?
[42:16.700 --> 42:20.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess it just depends on the orientation of the media.
[42:20.600 --> 42:30.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Austin American statesman picked up the story but their interest in it was publicizing the good work the Secret Service was doing in hunting down hackers.
[42:30.760 --> 42:41.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you read to the bottom of their very long story their story was on the front page but you had to read all the way down to the bottom to get the idea that there was any question at all about what they had taken.
[42:41.720 --> 42:47.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, a couple of weeks ago Newsweek did run a story which was in fact a very good story.
[42:47.440 --> 42:53.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It had a couple of minor problems of fact which don't bother me at all because they were really trying to get the story.
[42:54.700 --> 42:56.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: But overall, no.
[42:57.400 --> 43:07.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: The headlines are being grabbed by the Secret Service people who will send out press releases about all the damage being done by evil hackers.
[43:07.500 --> 43:12.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: The tremendous threat to every citizen caused by the hackers.
[43:13.300 --> 43:16.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, I suppose this justifies whoever they run over.
[43:18.340 --> 43:24.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, in an attempt to round up all the hackers a lot of other people are going to be rounded up as well.
[43:24.340 --> 43:26.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sounds like we've heard this somewhere before, you know?
[43:26.800 --> 43:27.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[43:27.520 --> 43:28.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: It does sound familiar, doesn't it?
[43:29.100 --> 43:31.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, what is your standing right now?
[43:32.380 --> 43:34.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have you lost money because of this?
[43:34.500 --> 43:34.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[43:37.320 --> 43:44.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Probably, I mean, my best guess is a total of about $125,000 which was more than we had in the bank.
[43:48.060 --> 43:52.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're in a business that depends very heavily on what is the new product.
[43:53.240 --> 43:55.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Game stores want to know what's new.
[43:59.580 --> 44:03.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: They took it when it was about a week away from going to the printer.
[44:04.400 --> 44:10.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this totally kicked the legs out from under our business as far as cash goes.
[44:11.300 --> 44:28.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: We looked at where we were and what we had to do and we decided that we had a choice between either just going out of business right then or laying off half the staff and trying to continue and we did go through the layoffs but eight people lost their jobs the next week because of that raid and it wasn't their fault.
[44:30.100 --> 44:31.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're still in business.
[44:32.040 --> 44:39.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: About six weeks after the raid we did manage to get a rewritten game book out there.
[44:39.400 --> 45:08.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: We pieced it together from a page here and a loose computer disc there and because the game had been posted on our bulletin board some people had downloaded it and we were actually got back one chapter I believe from a user who had copied it off our bulletin board but we also did a whole lot of rewriting and we got the book out with a little note on the front just telling people that this was the
[45:08.100 --> 45:15.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: book that was taken by the Secret Service and a note in the introduction telling people entirely what had happened to date because I want the world to hear about this.
[45:16.300 --> 45:30.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well you know it's incredible because a lot of reports that have been circulating give the wrong impression that it's a computer game therefore there's some kind of you know it's something you play on your computer but it's not that at all is it?
[45:30.480 --> 45:33.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's actually a book how does the game work?
[45:34.000 --> 45:48.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a book of game rules and a lot of the rules tell you how to play the part of a futuristic hacker but it doesn't tell you how to hack.
[45:50.100 --> 46:09.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: A comparison would be oh let's see like saying that a James Bond movie teaches you how to be a safe cracker because you see James Bond leaning over a safe doing something to it and it goes poof and it opens makes you wonder if you had a video cassette of WarGames would they have taken that too?
[46:11.320 --> 46:42.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: yeah well you can't underestimate the influence that WarGames had on the computer field and on hacking a lot of people never never heard of hacking until WarGames came out that was an important movie we're talking with Steve Jackson the owner of Steve Jackson games in Austin Texas whose company was raided by the secret service And we're presenting this as part of a special program tonight on
[46:42.700 --> 46:43.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: WBAI.
[46:43.940 --> 46:49.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's also part of our fundraiser in the springtime of 1990.
[46:49.300 --> 47:00.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a special deal for listeners who want more information on all of this and at the same time want to help out the radio station so that we can keep material like this coming to you.
[47:00.320 --> 47:11.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: For a pledge of $55, you will receive not only a year of the WBAI, WBAI Program Guide, but you will also receive a year of $2,600, the Hacker Quarterly.
[47:11.560 --> 47:21.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'd like to see a strong response right off the bat so that we don't have to spend a whole lot of time talking and asking for money because this is a fascinating subject matter.
[47:21.940 --> 47:23.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a lot more.
[47:23.680 --> 47:25.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is only the tip of the iceberg, folks.
[47:25.380 --> 47:26.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Only the tip of the iceberg.
[47:26.600 --> 47:29.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a lot of details we want to get out to you.
[47:29.240 --> 47:41.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: And by calling 279-3400 now, area code 212, and pledging your support to WBAI, you will be getting information like this as it happens.
[47:41.460 --> 47:46.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll be finding out things that a lot of other people don't know about.
[47:46.180 --> 47:48.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is very little way to find out these kind of things.
[47:49.140 --> 47:54.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: So for a $55 pledge, you'll get one year of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly.
[47:54.220 --> 47:57.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a big, in-depth story about all of this.
[47:57.280 --> 48:08.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Steve Jackson raids, the Legion of Doom, L-O-D, the newsletter in St. Louis that was shut down by the authorities, and we'll be getting into that a little bit later on as well.
[48:08.200 --> 48:24.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in addition to that, you'll also, when things like this aren't happening, you'll find out other things about technology, how technology works, how you can use technology to your benefit, legally, of course, but how it also can be used illegally, how your privacy can be invaded,
[48:24.780 --> 48:35.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: how your phone calls can be listened to, and how you can generally be ripped off by things like the phone company and other big, large agencies and companies.
[48:35.620 --> 48:38.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: So give us a call, 279-3400.
[48:38.540 --> 48:40.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's get two calls, okay?
[48:40.560 --> 48:58.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we see two calls come in, we can go right back to Steve Jackson and find out more about what happened with the Secret Service and also find out a lot more about this particular story because this is the biggest, the biggest computer hacker crackdown in history.
[48:59.360 --> 49:00.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[49:00.020 --> 49:05.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's turning into something like a mob, I guess.
[49:05.220 --> 49:05.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[49:05.840 --> 49:15.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know how the general public actually feels about all of this, how they perceive hackers, because, to be honest, I don't think I know anybody that's in the general public anymore.
[49:15.460 --> 49:19.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or, it's something that's scary.
[49:19.380 --> 49:27.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Manipulation of the media is, well, it's scary, but it's also necessary because we all have to manipulate the media to some degree.
[49:27.720 --> 49:30.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we have to get the story straight.
[49:30.720 --> 49:35.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And unfortunately, right now, the wrong people are getting the story straight.
[49:36.360 --> 49:40.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, or getting it straight in their point of view.
[49:40.260 --> 49:44.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, 212-279-3400, that's the telephone number to call.
[49:45.120 --> 49:48.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: A subscription to 2600 is yours with a pledge of $55.
[49:49.540 --> 49:54.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: That along with a membership of WBAI and the program guide for a year.
[49:55.360 --> 49:57.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: And let's get a couple more calls.
[49:57.800 --> 49:58.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[49:58.880 --> 50:00.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be taking your phone calls, too, later.
[50:00.700 --> 50:05.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we do want to see a strong response so that we can keep information like this coming to you.
[50:05.860 --> 50:07.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, Steve Jackson, you're still there, I hope?
[50:07.640 --> 50:07.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Still there.
[50:07.920 --> 50:09.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, survive that.
[50:09.780 --> 50:13.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tell us, where do you stand right now at this moment?
[50:14.020 --> 50:19.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, right now, I'm pacing back and forth in my office wondering how long I'm going to be in business.
[50:19.680 --> 50:20.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I stand.
[50:25.300 --> 50:28.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: The raid has cost us more money than we had.
[50:28.640 --> 50:41.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And while we've kept our heads above water over the ensuing two and a half months, we're in trouble and we're working very hard to pull out.
[50:41.360 --> 50:56.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: As a matter of fact, I'm not raising as much hell as I would like to because my first priority has got to be to keep the business alive for myself, for the eight people who still have jobs here, for our fans.
[50:57.900 --> 51:01.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's pretty much a 24-hour-a-day job right now.
[51:01.660 --> 51:04.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of response have you gotten from the people that...
[51:04.680 --> 51:06.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you described them as your fans.
[51:06.860 --> 51:08.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of response have you gotten from them?
[51:08.420 --> 51:15.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're universally supportive, and we have set the Illuminati bulletin board system back up.
[51:16.280 --> 51:23.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: We get a lot of extremely supportive comments, a lot of sympathies, an awful lot of, how can this happen in America?
[51:23.840 --> 51:26.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people saying that they're writing their congressmen.
[51:26.660 --> 51:28.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe something will come of it.
[51:29.080 --> 51:43.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've also had support from a quarter that I didn't expect, and it was really heartwarming because it came from our distributors, the companies that buy our games and then turn around and resell them to the retailers.
[51:43.760 --> 51:46.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, these people live and die by the bottom line.
[51:46.380 --> 51:48.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: They are your hard-headed capitalists.
[51:48.940 --> 52:04.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But several of these hard-headed capitalists just volunteered to make large payments to us in advance, and then you just take a credit slip and work it out later in order to get us through the first few really bad weeks.
[52:05.340 --> 52:07.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the thing that blew me away.
[52:10.540 --> 52:15.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because you expect sympathy from the guy in the street when the government steps on you.
[52:15.780 --> 52:21.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you get sympathy from businesses, the businesses will write a check to back up the sympathy.
[52:22.200 --> 52:24.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing, and that made me feel good.
[52:25.520 --> 52:30.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: What, uh, what was your feeling before all this started happening?
[52:30.120 --> 52:31.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you think things like this were possible?
[52:34.840 --> 52:36.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, possible, yes.
[52:36.640 --> 52:39.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I did not expect to encounter them outside of the Stephen King story.
[52:41.640 --> 52:42.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see.
[52:43.100 --> 52:53.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now I think Stephen King knows just exactly what he's talking about when he writes about, uh, cold-blooded, short-haired guys with guns on the government payroll.
[52:54.580 --> 52:57.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you actually, uh, were you there when this happened?
[52:58.020 --> 53:01.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, um, I was at home asleep when the raid started.
[53:02.360 --> 53:06.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, I got several phone calls about it within about a 15-minute space.
[53:08.180 --> 53:23.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I talked about it with the people on the scene, and we decided that, uh, if I were to come out there and stand in the rain outside my business while it was raided, I would probably end up saying something very regrettable and, uh, get, uh, get taken downtown and might not come back.
[53:24.740 --> 53:27.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I, I came on the scene just as they left.
[53:31.270 --> 53:31.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Incredible.
[53:32.330 --> 53:38.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, now, uh, how many, how many games does Steve Jackson games have currently on the market?
[53:40.970 --> 53:50.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we keep things in print for a long time, so I think our total list of products, not just games, but, you know, things to go with games, would be over a hundred.
[53:50.650 --> 53:54.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say we have about 20 that are really active right now.
[53:55.730 --> 53:58.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, where would people be able to find those kind of games?
[53:58.990 --> 54:00.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: In any computer store or, uh...
[54:00.850 --> 54:02.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, uh, they're not computer games.
[54:02.770 --> 54:05.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: None of them are, so you wouldn't find them in a computer store.
[54:05.370 --> 54:05.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good point.
[54:05.810 --> 54:07.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I fell for that myself, didn't I?
[54:07.150 --> 54:07.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[54:08.010 --> 54:09.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, it, it's an easy one to do.
[54:10.130 --> 54:15.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it, it originated in the Associated Press report, uh, that wasn't, it wasn't in the initial reports.
[54:15.570 --> 54:19.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Associated Press just jumped to a conclusion, and then that's followed it everywhere.
[54:19.930 --> 54:22.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, you'd find it in a hobby or game store.
[54:23.130 --> 54:25.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them you would find in a Walden book.
[54:26.250 --> 54:27.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Walden's does carry our line.
[54:28.030 --> 54:30.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not the whole line, but, uh, they have some of it.
[54:30.930 --> 54:34.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, where could, where could people find the game that just came out, the one that was rated by the Secret Service?
[54:35.370 --> 54:37.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see, Walden's hasn't picked that one up.
[54:37.150 --> 54:39.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you couldn't find that one in the Walden books.
[54:39.630 --> 54:44.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, just call, I mean, look up games in, in your, your yellow pages.
[54:44.430 --> 54:45.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, you're in the New York area.
[54:45.970 --> 54:49.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know that the Complete Strategist chain carries them in New York.
[54:49.930 --> 54:51.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know whether Forbidden Planet does or not.
[54:52.310 --> 54:58.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, I'm sure if enough, uh, outraged people call these places and ask for it, they'll eventually wind up, uh, getting it.
[54:58.750 --> 55:00.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'd love to supply all we can.
[55:00.530 --> 55:01.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: What can I say?
[55:01.450 --> 55:04.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, uh, what, what's your, what's your next step?
[55:04.170 --> 55:06.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you have, uh, legal representation?
[55:06.350 --> 55:08.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Has the, has the ACLU stepped in at all?
[55:08.570 --> 55:14.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have talked to the ACLU on the local, state, and national level.
[55:14.190 --> 55:21.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: The state and national level did not find the case interesting, said that they only dealt with, uh, class actions.
[55:22.210 --> 55:29.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: The local ACLU representative were, asked a lot of very intelligent questions, but I haven't heard from them in a week or so.
[55:29.790 --> 55:32.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose I really should call back and rattle the cage a little bit.
[55:33.150 --> 55:39.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, uh, that's kind of disheartening to hear that the ACLU hasn't taken an active interest in this, and, uh...
[55:39.090 --> 55:40.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I was disappointed.
[55:40.610 --> 55:53.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would have understood if they had given it serious consideration and said, no, we can't handle it, but to just be told on both the state and national level, no, we only do class actions, that surprised me.
[55:53.270 --> 55:56.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I did not think that that was the way the ACLU worked.
[55:56.710 --> 55:59.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you call, uh, the Washington office?
[55:59.750 --> 56:00.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yes.
[56:00.850 --> 56:02.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that, you were told the same thing?
[56:02.410 --> 56:02.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[56:03.490 --> 56:08.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, and if anyone out there has, uh, has more information about this, um, I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
[56:08.670 --> 56:15.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm going to open up the, uh, the phone lines, uh, for listeners to give a call in at, uh, 279-3407.
[56:15.970 --> 56:24.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: If somebody wants to come on the line now and, uh, talk to Steve Jackson live, uh, that would, uh, well, it's, it's now possible to do that.
[56:25.070 --> 56:30.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, uh, give us a call, 279-3407, if you want to be, uh, on the air.
[56:31.470 --> 56:38.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, give, give us, uh, give us a call at 212-279-3400.
[56:39.510 --> 56:45.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: If I sound confused, it's because our delay system is, uh, is doing things it's never done before, and I've, uh, are you still there, Steve?
[56:45.390 --> 56:45.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, I am.
[56:45.850 --> 56:46.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, good.
[56:46.270 --> 56:47.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't lose you, at least.
[56:47.290 --> 56:49.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we're going to be continuing with this story.
[56:49.910 --> 57:06.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to be, uh, we're going to be following up on the, uh, well, folks might have heard stories about computer hackers getting into the 9-1-1 computer system throughout the country, and we'll be, uh, zeroing in on just what exactly happened there.
[57:06.490 --> 57:07.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, did you hear something about that?
[57:08.310 --> 57:17.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've, I've heard a lot, mostly from people who, who call me to ask what's going on, and I, I say, I don't know, and then they tell me their version of what's going on.
[57:18.590 --> 57:29.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I have seen, you know, government press releases that, that say, you know, there's, there's a, a conspiracy to destroy the 9-1-1 system, and that's, that's one end.
[57:29.750 --> 57:50.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: At the other end, I've heard that, no, the only thing that's going on is that there was a, a document floating around of information about the 9-1-1 system, and it didn't, didn't have any computer code, didn't have anything in it, and people have just blown all that up into a terrible threat that,
[57:50.130 --> 57:52.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: that would justify, you know, taking all this authority.
[57:52.530 --> 57:53.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know.
[57:54.330 --> 57:55.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to know.
[57:56.730 --> 58:13.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, uh, that's a, that's a good lead-in for, uh, for something that's going to sound awfully, uh, commercial, but, uh, folks, if you want to know what really happened, then your best source for that is 2600, the hacker quarterly, and we are, uh, giving that to you with any pledge of $55.
[58:14.030 --> 58:30.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you want to give us a call, and you find that, uh, you're getting a busy signal because all the call-in lines are now taken, uh, give some serious thought to calling and making a pledge, because by making a pledge to WBAI, you're making an investment in free speech.
[58:31.030 --> 58:36.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't mean to sound high-handed by saying that, but it is true, because if you don't do it, who is?
[58:36.950 --> 58:38.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who is going to keep this station going?
[58:39.090 --> 58:42.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who is going to keep thoughts like this on the air?
[58:42.610 --> 58:47.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, who's going to tell you when, when the Secret Service raids publishers in the United States?
[58:48.190 --> 58:52.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, even as a kid, you know, that, that would strike a chord with me.
[58:52.570 --> 58:55.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: That would, that would make me say, what the hell is going on out there?
[58:55.930 --> 58:56.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is not right.
[58:57.570 --> 58:59.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's not right.
[58:59.250 --> 59:08.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not right to see things like this happen, to see, well, first of all, to see computer bulletin boards shut down simply because they're discussing things that, uh, that the authorities don't like to be discussed.
[59:08.710 --> 59:11.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: But now, now it's going a step further.
[59:11.290 --> 59:20.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And anybody that even writes something on, on paper about things that aren't supposed to be discussed is subject to the same kind of treatment.
[59:21.310 --> 59:33.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Steve Jackson Games is, I almost said was, almost was, but it still is, uh, an organization that, uh, that puts out creative role-playing games, not even on computer disks.
[59:33.430 --> 59:34.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're, they're books, they're on paper.
[59:35.450 --> 59:43.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the security, uh, the Secret Service raided them because they thought they were up to something else.
[59:43.390 --> 59:45.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: They thought they were up to something illegal.
[59:46.030 --> 59:49.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that gave them the, uh, the grounds to almost put them out of business.
[59:50.290 --> 59:56.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, the, the final chapter is still unwritten here, but, um, you can keep abreast of the situation.
[59:56.630 --> 01:00:01.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Take advantage of this offer because it's only being made tonight as part of this radio program.
[01:00:01.230 --> 01:00:09.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: For a $55 pledge, you'll get a full year of 2600 magazine, starting with this issue, which is coming out tomorrow, uh, the spring 1990 edition.
[01:00:10.270 --> 01:00:14.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, 2600 is making this donation to the radio station.
[01:00:14.550 --> 01:00:16.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not one penny is going back to 2600.
[01:00:16.790 --> 01:00:21.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a donation to free speech that the magazine is making.
[01:00:21.170 --> 01:00:25.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's a loss of sorts, I suppose, but, uh, it's well worth it.
[01:00:25.470 --> 01:00:30.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's well worth it because if it helps out here, then, uh, it helps all of us in the long run.
[01:00:31.030 --> 01:00:32.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: So give that some thought, folks.
[01:00:32.290 --> 01:00:33.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Give that some thought, please.
[01:00:33.830 --> 01:00:35.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: 2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-hundred.
[01:00:36.550 --> 01:00:37.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Support this.
[01:00:37.310 --> 01:00:39.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Support this exchange of ideas.
[01:00:39.530 --> 01:00:41.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, let's, let's exchange some ideas, get some callers on.
[01:00:42.030 --> 01:00:45.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas is on the line.
[01:00:45.810 --> 01:00:48.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: His company was raided by the Secret Service on March 1st.
[01:00:49.210 --> 01:00:51.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, let's take some calls.
[01:00:51.390 --> 01:00:51.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:00:51.870 --> 01:00:52.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where are you calling from?
[01:00:53.030 --> 01:00:53.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Middletown, New York.
[01:00:54.130 --> 01:00:54.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:00:54.390 --> 01:00:55.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's your, what's your question?
[01:00:55.690 --> 01:01:04.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: I just want to, I just want to find out, uh, give me five seconds and give details on the name and stuff like that so I can write a letter properly, okay?
[01:01:05.010 --> 01:01:06.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Steve, uh, do you have names?
[01:01:07.230 --> 01:01:10.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, the names of all, uh, who I can talk to my congressman about.
[01:01:11.050 --> 01:01:13.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't, I don't know who I'm writing about yet.
[01:01:13.370 --> 01:01:15.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm going to put the phone down and run back to the desk.
[01:01:15.610 --> 01:01:15.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:01:16.470 --> 01:01:18.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, uh, all right.
[01:01:18.170 --> 01:01:28.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I, I think what the caller was asking basically was for us to reiterate what we, what we've, uh, been talking about, uh, basically Steve Jackson Games is, uh, an organization in, uh, in Austin, Texas.
[01:01:28.970 --> 01:01:36.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was raided by the Secret Service on March 1st, uh, for, uh, well, did they ever say exactly why they were doing this?
[01:01:36.150 --> 01:01:39.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And when you asked them, did they ever give a reason in their words?
[01:01:39.490 --> 01:01:47.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: The only justification that, that they ever, ever gave was that this was an investigation of data piracy.
[01:01:48.450 --> 01:01:52.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: The only, the only data that I know of that's been taken, uh, was mine.
[01:01:53.190 --> 01:01:53.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[01:01:53.910 --> 01:02:01.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's an interesting side note, too, because many times, uh, computer hackers are accused of doing certain things.
[01:02:01.750 --> 01:02:11.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we find that the authorities in their zealousness to, uh, to prosecute computer hackers, uh, break all of the laws that they're supposed to be protecting.
[01:02:11.590 --> 01:02:16.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: They read people's mail, they break into computer systems, they steal things from people's homes.
[01:02:16.810 --> 01:02:19.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, whether or not they're stealing is open to debate, I suppose.
[01:02:19.290 --> 01:02:23.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, I, I think you feel pretty much like you've been robbed, don't you?
[01:02:23.750 --> 01:02:26.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if I'd been robbed, the insurance would cover it.
[01:02:26.370 --> 01:02:27.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, uh, that's true.
[01:02:28.170 --> 01:02:30.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I guess insurance doesn't cover Secret Service raids, does it?
[01:02:30.950 --> 01:02:31.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh.
[01:02:31.710 --> 01:02:33.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's, uh, that's something you, you learn about.
[01:02:34.510 --> 01:02:45.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, uh, so to answer that caller's question, uh, Steve Jackson Games is the name of, uh, of the organization that was raided, was raided by the Secret Service in, um, in Austin, Texas on March 1st.
[01:02:45.710 --> 01:02:52.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there's more to this story that we haven't gotten to yet, and we'll be, uh, reading excerpts from 2600 Magazine, uh, as the night goes on.
[01:02:52.690 --> 01:02:54.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're on for another three hours.
[01:02:55.050 --> 01:02:56.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're on for another three hours talking about this subject.
[01:02:57.090 --> 01:03:00.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: So again, folks, uh, we have all the call-in lines lit up.
[01:03:00.390 --> 01:03:05.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, they're all busied out, so if you want to support the radio station, let's get those lines lit up, too.
[01:03:05.690 --> 01:03:07.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wake up those people in the tally room.
[01:03:07.670 --> 01:03:08.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[01:03:09.190 --> 01:03:11.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll try to get as many calls in as we can.
[01:03:11.430 --> 01:03:13.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: We also have more guests coming in later on.
[01:03:13.670 --> 01:03:15.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have, uh, more subjects to cover.
[01:03:15.790 --> 01:03:24.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, this is a very big story, and hopefully, hopefully, uh, it's going to explode in the media the way it should have exploded in the media in the first place.
[01:03:24.610 --> 01:03:29.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, do you have any, any sensation that, that somebody's going to write a story for a major newspaper about this?
[01:03:30.610 --> 01:03:34.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, sometimes I think they will, and sometimes I think they won't.
[01:03:34.330 --> 01:03:40.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, on the one hand, we, we have had inquiries from media that haven't written anything yet.
[01:03:40.950 --> 01:03:44.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, maybe there are people out there working on stories.
[01:03:44.770 --> 01:03:50.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard, oh, from the Wall Street Journal on one end of the spectrum to the, the Village Voice on the other.
[01:03:51.010 --> 01:03:52.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, maybe so.
[01:03:52.890 --> 01:03:57.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, it's real clear to me that the Secret Service doesn't want this publicized.
[01:03:57.630 --> 01:03:59.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: They've made that very clear to me.
[01:03:59.490 --> 01:04:00.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: But can you, can you go into that?
[01:04:00.770 --> 01:04:01.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: How have they made that clear?
[01:04:02.070 --> 01:04:03.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's see.
[01:04:03.730 --> 01:04:10.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I, I, I still have some computers here in the office, and I've, I'm keeping my notes on this whole story on one of them.
[01:04:11.070 --> 01:04:15.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, let me just look here and get the date, so I can get the story right.
[01:04:15.450 --> 01:04:17.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a computer they didn't get to yet, huh?
[01:04:17.690 --> 01:04:18.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, yeah.
[01:04:19.630 --> 01:04:20.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's see.
[01:04:21.170 --> 01:04:21.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:04:21.830 --> 01:04:25.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this was on March 26th.
[01:04:25.690 --> 01:04:31.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: On that day, we, we actually got some of our files back from the Secret Service.
[01:04:32.250 --> 01:04:39.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not very many, and not in good order, and they weren't the current files, but they did actually send us some files back.
[01:04:40.150 --> 01:04:55.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I called the Secret Service agent who had, had been in charge, and thanked him for returning our property, asked him when we could expect to see the rest of our files and our hardware.
[01:04:56.110 --> 01:04:59.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and let's see.
[01:04:59.970 --> 01:05:01.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: He made a number of comments.
[01:05:01.890 --> 01:05:10.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, he, he said that, that the reason that we didn't have all our, or one reason we didn't have all our files was that they couldn't copy some of the subdirectories on the computer.
[01:05:11.290 --> 01:05:18.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: That, uh, I think to anyone who knows how to use a computer, that's going to sound very strange.
[01:05:18.910 --> 01:05:32.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are, there are several interpretations of that, including that, that I was not being told the truth, or that I was being told the truth, but that the person who was making the, uh, the copies didn't really know how to use the computer.
[01:05:32.610 --> 01:05:34.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know which of those is more frightening.
[01:05:34.810 --> 01:05:43.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I don't like the idea that the federal agents who are supposed to be investigating computer crime don't understand how to copy a disk.
[01:05:44.070 --> 01:05:53.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But some of the, some of the two-fingered typing that I saw when I visited the Secret Service offices here in Austin was, was, was very frightening.
[01:05:54.130 --> 01:06:02.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, um, going on with the, the things he told me, um, I, I asked when we would get our systems returned.
[01:06:03.830 --> 01:06:06.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the agent said three things.
[01:06:07.090 --> 01:06:13.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: He said that some of our hardware would definitely never be returned, that it was going to be confiscated.
[01:06:14.550 --> 01:06:20.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: He said that he did not like seeing front page stories in the Austin American statesman.
[01:06:20.890 --> 01:06:26.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he said that in the future, if I wanted to talk to him, I could have my lawyer talk to him.
[01:06:26.650 --> 01:06:32.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now I have to, have to point out that he didn't draw any connection between any of these statements he made to me.
[01:06:32.290 --> 01:06:38.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: He did not tell me that my hardware would be confiscated because I had talked to the paper.
[01:06:38.590 --> 01:06:39.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't say anything like that.
[01:06:40.110 --> 01:06:41.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, so he didn't make a threat.
[01:06:42.030 --> 01:06:46.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was just left to draw, draw, draw my own conclusions from the things that he had told me.
[01:06:47.270 --> 01:07:00.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And my, my attorney was told, uh, substantially the same thing when he called, uh, the, in, in, in the same words, that the agent didn't like seeing front page stories in the Austin paper.
[01:07:00.890 --> 01:07:02.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let me just ask you something.
[01:07:02.930 --> 01:07:07.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: You said that, uh, there is certain hardware that will definitely not be returned.
[01:07:07.250 --> 01:07:13.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: If it's found out that you're, that you're innocent of any wrongdoing, how can they, how can they hold?
[01:07:13.870 --> 01:07:15.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: What, what is it first of all, they want to hold?
[01:07:16.230 --> 01:07:18.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, he didn't specify.
[01:07:18.610 --> 01:07:29.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a couple of weeks later, I received a call from the, the assistant U.S. attorney who, as far as I can tell is the one who is giving the secret service agents his marching orders.
[01:07:29.830 --> 01:07:30.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know this for sure.
[01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:32.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's just the way it looks from the outside.
[01:07:32.750 --> 01:07:37.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he told me that I would get all of my material back.
[01:07:37.830 --> 01:07:43.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in a later call, he gave a date, but that date has passed and later dates have, have passed.
[01:07:44.490 --> 01:07:54.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the last that they said was that we would get all our material back on or before Thursday, the 24th.
[01:07:54.950 --> 01:07:57.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it would, it would be nice if that happens.
[01:07:58.290 --> 01:08:01.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, here I am talking on the radio now about it.
[01:08:02.290 --> 01:08:07.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, that couldn't possibly affect when they decide that they no longer need my hardware, right?
[01:08:07.390 --> 01:08:09.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I certainly hope not.
[01:08:09.970 --> 01:08:11.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's, uh, let's take another call.
[01:08:11.830 --> 01:08:12.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:08:12.590 --> 01:08:13.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where are you calling from?
[01:08:13.610 --> 01:08:15.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, New York City, Manhattan.
[01:08:15.650 --> 01:08:15.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:08:15.930 --> 01:08:16.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's your question?
[01:08:16.870 --> 01:08:23.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, uh, I heard that basically this whole thing is, is related to, uh, a question of, uh, alleged piracy.
[01:08:23.890 --> 01:08:31.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, is this a question of, uh, possession of, uh, pirated material or, uh, duplication and, and, and sale of that?
[01:08:31.890 --> 01:08:32.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve?
[01:08:34.710 --> 01:08:37.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm still not clear on why they raided us.
[01:08:37.910 --> 01:08:48.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, there have been all kinds of things in the papers about how they're, they're finding people doing hacking for phone fraud and people doing hacking for espionage and people doing this and people doing that.
[01:08:48.610 --> 01:08:55.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: What we did was write, write a book about imaginary hacking into imaginary futuristic computers.
[01:08:55.850 --> 01:08:56.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[01:08:57.250 --> 01:09:01.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and basically they said this was a blueprint to encourage people or something?
[01:09:01.870 --> 01:09:08.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not in those words, but, uh, the, the words they used were that this was a handbook for computer crime.
[01:09:08.830 --> 01:09:10.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I, I think you're probably right.
[01:09:10.930 --> 01:09:11.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[01:09:11.530 --> 01:09:14.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: This, uh, I, I work with a bulletin board myself.
[01:09:14.490 --> 01:09:16.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: You, you work with Illuminatis, I believe?
[01:09:16.330 --> 01:09:17.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Illuminati, yeah.
[01:09:17.270 --> 01:09:20.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I work with, uh, uh, Tentra Red Flag in Manhattan.
[01:09:21.150 --> 01:09:23.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I don't know, in, in, in, basically 212.
[01:09:24.670 --> 01:09:30.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, basically this also concerns me because, you know, I, I've, I've been watching the situation also.
[01:09:31.150 --> 01:09:39.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, well, you know, it, it, it's, it's very strange that they would put it in like, in, in, in these terms because it seems like they had no warrant.
[01:09:39.390 --> 01:09:41.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: They had no specification for this.
[01:09:41.890 --> 01:09:53.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: This all started, didn't it, about 10 years ago when they sort of said that, uh, that the complexity of information storage and retrieval, uh, would, uh, necessitate, uh, increased security, I believe?
[01:09:55.810 --> 01:09:58.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, uh, I'm not sure exactly what happened 10 years ago.
[01:09:59.090 --> 01:09:59.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: They were...
[01:09:59.250 --> 01:10:00.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no, that's when it started.
[01:10:00.530 --> 01:10:12.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: When, when, when it started to become a proliferation of a lot of this stuff, uh, the, the, the, the government made, uh, uh, pro, uh, proclamation to the academic community.
[01:10:12.550 --> 01:10:32.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I think it received, uh, uh, distribution on the front page at a time, so a science section, I'm not sure which, which said that due to the, uh, increased, um, complexity and, uh, sensitive nature of encryption, uh, computer security, and, uh, information storage and retrieval,
[01:10:32.990 --> 01:10:39.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: that they, they had, had needed in increased powers, uh, to, uh, control it.
[01:10:40.050 --> 01:10:53.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's, that's a very scary concept, because what you're basically saying is that the government, uh, is overstepping its, its current limits or the limits it had 10 years ago on anything that has something to do with computers, so, uh...
[01:10:53.950 --> 01:11:04.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: One of, one of the comments that was made while I was in the Secret Service office the day after the raid, was, uh, an agent expressing the, the opinion that modems ought to be outlawed.
[01:11:05.170 --> 01:11:05.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[01:11:05.690 --> 01:11:13.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that, you'll find that that's, uh, that's something that a lot of people in mainstream America seem to feel.
[01:11:13.130 --> 01:11:19.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, it's because of the way, uh, hackers have been portrayed in the media, uh, but, but think of it by outlawing modems.
[01:11:19.710 --> 01:11:22.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're, in effect, outlawing, what's, what's the parallel?
[01:11:22.590 --> 01:11:24.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Telephones, I suppose, for most people.
[01:11:24.150 --> 01:11:44.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, uh, from running a 24-hour system that gets a lot of, uh, um, fire from, from a lot of extreme elements, uh, I, I don't see what the government's problem is, because personally, uh, there's also a lot of methods of, uh, protecting oneself on the question of,
[01:11:44.350 --> 01:11:46.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: uh, having someone intruding into your system.
[01:11:46.750 --> 01:12:03.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Usually a lot of these so-called, uh, hackers that break into systems are people who have access to systems, and they're usually academic systems whereby, you know, they have some interreaction on, on a system level, I believe, with, with the computer system itself.
[01:12:03.430 --> 01:12:08.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: In other words, you, it's not like crawling up into a bulletin board and trying to break in.
[01:12:08.590 --> 01:12:19.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's usually something, uh, whereby someone is, uh, entering specific commands, uh, to the computer to get calculations or, or, or, or something of that nature.
[01:12:19.910 --> 01:12:25.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, uh, basically on, on, on the structure of, uh, old CPM bulletin board type of things.
[01:12:25.950 --> 01:12:26.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[01:12:26.310 --> 01:12:28.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can you tell us something about, uh, about your bulletin board?
[01:12:28.930 --> 01:12:31.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: What, what, uh, what kind of subjects would you cover?
[01:12:31.950 --> 01:12:35.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, basically, we're, uh, socialist-oriented.
[01:12:35.950 --> 01:12:53.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: We, we try to have, uh, people call in and, uh, deposit, uh, all types of, uh, democratic labor, uh, socialist, Marxist-Leninist, anarchist type of literature to have, uh, a basic discussion of issues which are relevant, uh, to our times.
[01:12:54.530 --> 01:13:12.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and we feel very uncomfortable, uh, with the circumstances as they now exist, you know, because, uh, we feel it's very awkward to talk about a lot of issues until basic, the questions of basic democratic rights are discussed in this country, which has never been done so.
[01:13:12.770 --> 01:13:23.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they, they've come down on, uh, the wobblies, the socialists, the labor movement in the 1800s, the labor movement again in the, uh, 30s, the communist movement, the black liberation movement.
[01:13:23.750 --> 01:13:30.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I mean, what democratic rights do we really have, uh, without safeguards?
[01:13:30.950 --> 01:13:44.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, with the increased, uh, amount of technology, uh, it, it, it, it makes every issue almost irrelevant because, uh, we have no ability whatsoever unless we have protection.
[01:13:44.610 --> 01:13:51.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's, uh, that's very true because control of, uh, of this technology is, is the key.
[01:13:51.510 --> 01:13:54.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think that's what, uh, what these battles are going to be focusing upon.
[01:13:54.970 --> 01:14:00.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are the individuals going to have control over the technology or is technology going to be in, in charge of them?
[01:14:01.010 --> 01:14:04.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, that's, that's really what we see with these, uh, with these raids.
[01:14:04.750 --> 01:14:16.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: A board like yours that's discussing issues that people have discussed for, for centuries, uh, could conceivably be taken away from you because the authorities don't like what you're saying.
[01:14:16.770 --> 01:14:20.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it could be done legally because it's not considered speech.
[01:14:20.730 --> 01:14:25.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not considered the same thing as, uh, as pen and pencil.
[01:14:25.530 --> 01:14:28.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Computer bulletin boards are, are thought of as something else.
[01:14:28.670 --> 01:14:33.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: And really what you said before about, about computers being used to calculate and things like that.
[01:14:33.850 --> 01:14:34.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Think about it.
[01:14:34.650 --> 01:14:39.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Computer bulletin boards, they're not even being used for calculation or figuring things out.
[01:14:39.250 --> 01:14:42.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're being used simply to pass messages back and forth.
[01:14:42.450 --> 01:14:43.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is the problem with that?
[01:14:44.110 --> 01:14:58.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you have to wonder when, when agencies take such a strong stand against people sending messages back and forth, uh, and, and being anonymous and communicating ideas and thoughts and information, why do they have such a problem with that?
[01:14:59.030 --> 01:15:02.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, and how come more people aren't protecting that right?
[01:15:02.870 --> 01:15:08.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the, the, the, the, the, the, the authorities are basically afraid that they can't control the technology at all.
[01:15:08.670 --> 01:15:14.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they've created it, they want to benefit from it, but they don't feel that they can control it.
[01:15:14.730 --> 01:15:17.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: It wants, there's a, a, a large amount of proliferation.
[01:15:17.530 --> 01:15:20.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I don't, I don't think the authorities have created the technology, I think.
[01:15:20.430 --> 01:15:31.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, as an, as industries, I'm, I'm, I'm basically really, I'm, I'm seeing the authorities as, as, as, uh, uh, glove in hand with industry and corporate, the corporate structure.
[01:15:31.830 --> 01:15:32.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[01:15:32.110 --> 01:15:35.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, but technology in the hands of individuals is a, is a wonderful thing.
[01:15:36.030 --> 01:15:36.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[01:15:36.230 --> 01:15:40.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's, uh, that's what I like to see more of, people taking charge of this.
[01:15:40.370 --> 01:15:43.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're definitely afraid of it because it's a very threatening thing.
[01:15:43.750 --> 01:15:44.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry.
[01:15:44.270 --> 01:15:44.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can you repeat that, Steve?
[01:15:45.210 --> 01:15:48.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a wonderful thing, but to an authoritarian, it's a very threatening thing.
[01:15:48.870 --> 01:15:49.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh yeah.
[01:15:49.270 --> 01:15:53.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I've often said that to any, any form of government, an individual is the biggest threat.
[01:15:54.170 --> 01:15:59.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Technology that the authorities and their enforcers don't understand is, of course, the most threatening of all.
[01:16:00.790 --> 01:16:01.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Quite true.
[01:16:01.510 --> 01:16:01.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Quite true.
[01:16:02.090 --> 01:16:05.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, the, uh, the fight to understand this technology is well underway.
[01:16:06.250 --> 01:16:08.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: I want to thank the caller for, uh, for calling in.
[01:16:08.430 --> 01:16:10.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to go to, uh, to another call here.
[01:16:10.750 --> 01:16:12.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, folks, we need your support.
[01:16:12.850 --> 01:16:15.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: We need to continue to bring you programs like this.
[01:16:15.710 --> 01:16:17.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just ask yourself this question.
[01:16:17.810 --> 01:16:20.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where, where have you heard this before?
[01:16:21.710 --> 01:16:23.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can't really think of any place, can you?
[01:16:23.530 --> 01:16:33.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because other radio stations, other TV stations, newspapers, magazines, well, they, in all honesty, I don't think they figured it out yet.
[01:16:33.410 --> 01:16:35.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think they understand what the implications are.
[01:16:36.090 --> 01:16:41.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, even when they do figure out the implications, will it sell newspapers?
[01:16:41.330 --> 01:16:42.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Will it make headlines?
[01:16:42.470 --> 01:16:45.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Will it make people tune in and bring those arbitron ratings up?
[01:16:46.110 --> 01:16:48.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, that's, that's not important to us.
[01:16:48.830 --> 01:16:56.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's important to us is making people think, making ourselves think, bringing out issues, bringing out new ideas and new thoughts.
[01:16:56.770 --> 01:17:02.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: And by supporting us, by supporting WBAI, you're supporting free speech.
[01:17:02.970 --> 01:17:03.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Simple as that.
[01:17:04.850 --> 01:17:09.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, area code 212, make a pledge of $55.
[01:17:10.250 --> 01:17:13.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: We take Visa, we take Master, uh, MasterCard.
[01:17:13.350 --> 01:17:14.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it's MasterCard.
[01:17:14.750 --> 01:17:16.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Visa and MasterCard to make it easier on you.
[01:17:16.990 --> 01:17:19.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know $55 is a lot of money for some people.
[01:17:19.610 --> 01:17:20.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a lot of money for me.
[01:17:21.110 --> 01:17:26.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, but spread out over however many months that Visa or MasterCard will let you get away with.
[01:17:26.310 --> 01:17:28.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it can be something that you can stand.
[01:17:29.370 --> 01:17:40.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, and for that $55, you will get a one-year subscription to 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, uh, a magazine that, uh, deals with issues like this on an ongoing basis.
[01:17:40.930 --> 01:17:47.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And unfortunately, at this point in time, really the only place you can, you can find out about this kind of thing as it's happening.
[01:17:47.930 --> 01:18:04.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, in addition to that, find out all kinds of neat little secrets about technology, about what the computer hackers are really up to, about what people all over the world are doing with technology, about how technology will affect you, how, how Big Brother is watching or will be watching.
[01:18:04.990 --> 01:18:17.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: 2600 has reported on things like lie detector tests and urine analysis and all kinds of, uh, all kinds of things are just happening, uh, left and right, you know, total system integration.
[01:18:18.690 --> 01:18:24.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, 2600 has reported on the phone company and how the phone company rips people off.
[01:18:24.390 --> 01:18:25.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I shouldn't say phone company.
[01:18:26.090 --> 01:18:28.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's so many of them now and they're all ripping people off to some degree.
[01:18:29.230 --> 01:18:35.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: 2600 is the place to find out how they're ripping you off and what you can do about it.
[01:18:35.490 --> 01:18:41.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: 2600 is the place to find out how phone phreaks and computer hackers do what they do.
[01:18:41.550 --> 01:18:46.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you can find out for yourself exactly what is happening and, and you can read through the headlines.
[01:18:47.230 --> 01:18:55.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And as a special offer tonight, as part of this fundraising drive for a pledge of $55, you'll get a year of 2600 magazines.
[01:18:56.110 --> 01:19:02.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: 48 pages comes out quarterly and it's, uh, whoops, that was it hitting the microphone there.
[01:19:02.330 --> 01:19:02.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the noise it makes.
[01:19:03.530 --> 01:19:17.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it was, uh, uh, I guess a must people have described this as, uh, all details about this whole, uh, this whole investigation by the secret service and, um, a lot of other things.
[01:19:17.650 --> 01:19:19.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: A review of the, the cuckoo's egg, for instance.
[01:19:19.890 --> 01:19:22.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, how to listen in on phone calls.
[01:19:22.250 --> 01:19:29.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not, not so much how you can listen in on phone calls, but how people could be listening in on your phone calls.
[01:19:29.670 --> 01:19:34.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, something that I think we should all know about and something that really isn't talked about very often.
[01:19:35.010 --> 01:19:40.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, so by calling 279-3400, you'll be doing, you'll be doing three things.
[01:19:40.450 --> 01:19:42.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll be educating yourself.
[01:19:43.350 --> 01:19:51.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll be helping out WBAI and you'll be supporting freedom of speech and freedom of information and all that kind of thing.
[01:19:52.250 --> 01:19:53.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[01:19:53.430 --> 01:19:56.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's very important that you support us at this stage.
[01:19:56.630 --> 01:20:03.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, no matter where you are, Connecticut, Long Island, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, give us a call.
[01:20:03.730 --> 01:20:06.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[01:20:06.770 --> 01:20:09.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And let's, uh, let's go to, uh, another call.
[01:20:09.870 --> 01:20:11.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Steve, I don't want to keep you up too much longer.
[01:20:11.830 --> 01:20:15.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, so let's, let's, let's try to race through these calls here.
[01:20:15.170 --> 01:20:15.330]  Okay.
[01:20:15.490 --> 01:20:19.150]  Well, I'll, I'll have questions.
[01:20:19.430 --> 01:20:19.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:20:19.970 --> 01:20:20.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tell the story.
[01:20:20.670 --> 01:20:21.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:20:21.110 --> 01:20:21.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where are you calling from?
[01:20:22.050 --> 01:20:23.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hi, New York, Manhattan.
[01:20:23.650 --> 01:20:23.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:20:24.230 --> 01:20:24.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's your question?
[01:20:25.230 --> 01:20:25.370]  [SPEAKER_22]: What?
[01:20:25.850 --> 01:20:27.950]  [SPEAKER_22]: Steve, I have a couple of questions for you.
[01:20:28.070 --> 01:20:28.210]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[01:20:29.190 --> 01:20:38.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: I have a couple of questions and also a comment, uh, regarding the Secret Service and, uh, covert aspects of its history.
[01:20:38.850 --> 01:20:39.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[01:20:39.950 --> 01:20:58.230]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, first of all, have you considered, uh, filing suit against them based on infringement of your constitutional rights of, uh, freedom of expression and also for things like, uh, you know, malicious prosecution and of course for damages and, you know,
[01:20:59.210 --> 01:21:01.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I think about it every day.
[01:21:01.610 --> 01:21:09.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, right now, I don't really have enough money to keep the business going, let alone to, to spend a lot on attorneys.
[01:21:09.450 --> 01:21:20.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: If I can find help from some, someone with legal expertise who thinks that there's an important case here, that would be very exciting and very welcome.
[01:21:20.870 --> 01:21:22.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, let me, let me just break in at this moment.
[01:21:22.770 --> 01:21:26.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, if you want to give out a phone number for somebody to get ahold of you, uh, feel free.
[01:21:27.570 --> 01:21:27.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:21:28.290 --> 01:21:38.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, our, our office phone number is 512-447-7866.
[01:21:40.030 --> 01:21:49.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: Also, you mentioned that, uh, they gave you a date that they would release equipment back to you and they, they didn't, gave you several dates and didn't follow through.
[01:21:49.630 --> 01:21:52.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: Are you recording your phone conversations with them?
[01:21:52.870 --> 01:22:05.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: And also when you go in to speak to them, you should have a tape recorder on you perhaps so that, you know, if they say things, which in fact turn out to be false, uh, you would have that to use against them.
[01:22:07.370 --> 01:22:08.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting question.
[01:22:08.690 --> 01:22:12.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, there's also the question of whether that invades their right of privacy.
[01:22:12.110 --> 01:22:13.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know the answer to that.
[01:22:13.610 --> 01:22:20.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, most of the promises that they have made over the past couple of months have been to my attorney rather than directly to me.
[01:22:21.030 --> 01:22:25.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: So on the one hand, I couldn't record those where I inclined, but on the other hand, there's a witness.
[01:22:26.610 --> 01:22:33.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, let me just say that, uh, the laws governing, uh, whether or not you can record a phone conversation, they differ from state to state.
[01:22:33.310 --> 01:22:38.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know in New York, it's legal for you to record a phone conversation as long as one person knows about it.
[01:22:39.030 --> 01:22:40.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it may be the same in Texas.
[01:22:41.070 --> 01:22:44.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, uh, if you check your state laws, you'll, you'll know if that's legal.
[01:22:44.290 --> 01:22:46.030]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, I don't want to go to their level.
[01:22:46.890 --> 01:23:06.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: And also I'd like to mention, although it may not be directly related to this action by the secret service, that, um, as, uh, listeners to WBAI may be aware, elements within the secret service were definitely involved in the conspiracy that assassinated John Kennedy.
[01:23:06.990 --> 01:23:24.090]  [SPEAKER_22]: They had, uh, custody of the body, the limousine had its windshield changed twice secretly, uh, while it was, uh, you know, in their custody to, uh, change, uh, you know, as information about the direction which the bullets were supposed to have come in changed.
[01:23:25.130 --> 01:23:28.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, the body was altered under their custody.
[01:23:28.970 --> 01:23:34.210]  [SPEAKER_22]: There were people within the secret service at that time, uh, involved in that conspiracy.
[01:23:34.370 --> 01:23:40.010]  [SPEAKER_22]: And there are definitely right wing, um, anti-democratic elements still within that organization.
[01:23:40.410 --> 01:23:43.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's, uh, that's another show in itself.
[01:23:43.570 --> 01:23:45.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's, uh, there's all kinds of things I suppose you could go on about.
[01:23:46.430 --> 01:23:49.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, you got to know who you're, who's, who you're up against.
[01:23:49.510 --> 01:23:49.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:23:49.810 --> 01:23:50.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's interesting too.
[01:23:50.830 --> 01:23:55.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: People might be asking, why is the secret service involved with, uh, computer hackers?
[01:23:55.330 --> 01:24:11.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was a number of years ago, I believe back in, uh, 85, 86, around then that, uh, control of investigation of computer hackers was transferred from the FBI to the secret service because it supposedly had something to do with the treasury department.
[01:24:11.270 --> 01:24:19.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: The secret service is part of the treasury department and, uh, uh, uh, phone fraud, computer fraud is said to be, uh, something that would concern them.
[01:24:19.830 --> 01:24:23.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, God knows what the relation is here in this particular case.
[01:24:24.090 --> 01:24:29.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it does seem rather odd though to have members of the secret service, uh, investigating a publishing company.
[01:24:29.910 --> 01:24:33.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, when did you ever hear of a bureaucratic organization giving up power?
[01:24:34.910 --> 01:24:36.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, well, not around here.
[01:24:36.170 --> 01:24:36.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's for sure.
[01:24:36.810 --> 01:24:38.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: I want to thank the caller for calling in.
[01:24:38.430 --> 01:24:44.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, we have, uh, one more call again, please give us call to our support line.
[01:24:44.210 --> 01:24:45.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess that's the wrong word for it.
[01:24:45.750 --> 01:24:51.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're not going to give you guidance or, or tell you prayers or something like that, but we will take your pledge.
[01:24:51.610 --> 01:24:57.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have, um, a bunch of people who have sacrificed whatever they do at one o'clock in the morning on Fridays.
[01:24:58.130 --> 01:25:00.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I, I guess sleep is what most people do.
[01:25:00.650 --> 01:25:05.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, but they've given that up to be down in the tally room and answer your phone calls.
[01:25:05.810 --> 01:25:07.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're listeners very much like you.
[01:25:07.310 --> 01:25:20.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, we could use a couple of more of them, uh, to, to come down and, uh, and be a part of WBAI at any time of the day or night, uh, up until, uh, Saturday, Saturday night at midnight, which is when we, uh, we stop this fundraiser.
[01:25:21.350 --> 01:25:26.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, we, they will answer your phone call and they will, uh, guide you through the pledge process.
[01:25:26.830 --> 01:25:28.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, it's a very pleasant process, actually.
[01:25:28.490 --> 01:25:34.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've been through it a couple of times myself, and, uh, they'll just take your name and address and however much you want to pledge.
[01:25:34.710 --> 01:25:35.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400.
[01:25:36.050 --> 01:25:47.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, for that $55 pledge, as a special offer, you'll get the, uh, 2600 magazine delivered to wherever you want it delivered, I guess, uh, for the next year.
[01:25:48.010 --> 01:25:53.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you'll be on top of situations like this, which I think are fascinating.
[01:25:53.850 --> 01:25:57.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: I really think these, uh, these situations are, are, are fascinating.
[01:25:58.190 --> 01:26:00.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, unfortunately, though, they're becoming more prevalent.
[01:26:00.990 --> 01:26:03.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: We still have a lot more to get into tonight.
[01:26:03.470 --> 01:26:05.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're on until 3.30 tonight.
[01:26:05.830 --> 01:26:08.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, WBAI saw the importance of this subject.
[01:26:08.850 --> 01:26:10.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's why we have more time tonight.
[01:26:11.930 --> 01:26:15.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's hope that our listeners see the importance in WBAI.
[01:26:16.310 --> 01:26:19.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, uh, believe me, there are forces out there.
[01:26:19.150 --> 01:26:23.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are entities out there that want to see another top 40 radio station in the city.
[01:26:24.710 --> 01:26:28.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I've got nothing against top, well, that's, that's not, that's not exactly true.
[01:26:28.630 --> 01:26:33.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've got some things against top 40, but I don't have, I don't want to say top 40 shouldn't exist.
[01:26:33.870 --> 01:26:36.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: It, it can exist in its own particular part of the dial.
[01:26:37.110 --> 01:26:39.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: But WBAI is essential.
[01:26:39.630 --> 01:26:40.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: It really is.
[01:26:40.950 --> 01:26:43.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: You won't hear these stories.
[01:26:43.570 --> 01:26:45.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: You won't hear these thoughts.
[01:26:45.530 --> 01:26:50.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you won't have access to a radio station the way WBAI gives you access.
[01:26:51.870 --> 01:26:53.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, give us a call.
[01:26:54.090 --> 01:26:56.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[01:26:56.710 --> 01:26:57.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make that pledge.
[01:26:57.850 --> 01:27:00.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it's not a painful process.
[01:27:01.290 --> 01:27:08.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, quite pleasant because you'll be a part of this whole mess, this whole mess of free speech.
[01:27:08.470 --> 01:27:10.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And freedom of speech can get pretty messy, folks.
[01:27:10.630 --> 01:27:12.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think we're demonstrating that tonight.
[01:27:12.290 --> 01:27:14.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, what do you say we take one more phone call?
[01:27:14.670 --> 01:27:15.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds good.
[01:27:15.370 --> 01:27:16.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, here we go.
[01:27:16.310 --> 01:27:16.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:27:17.130 --> 01:27:17.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where are you calling from?
[01:27:18.730 --> 01:27:20.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, um, Manhattan.
[01:27:20.350 --> 01:27:20.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:27:21.150 --> 01:27:24.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, hi, um, excuse me, is this Elliot?
[01:27:24.630 --> 01:27:25.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Elliot?
[01:27:25.250 --> 01:27:28.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, I, I thought this, your name was Elliot.
[01:27:28.290 --> 01:27:28.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[01:27:28.890 --> 01:27:31.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, it's Emmanuel, but, uh, Emmanuel, I'm sorry.
[01:27:31.490 --> 01:27:31.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's okay.
[01:27:31.990 --> 01:27:31.990]  Okay.
[01:27:32.930 --> 01:27:34.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me, great show.
[01:27:35.330 --> 01:27:47.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I also want, um, Steve, if he would give an address to, and don't forget the others, all his questions in terms of helping us to format a letter to our, uh, Congress people.
[01:27:48.230 --> 01:27:52.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I feel this is a very important issue to, um, come around.
[01:27:53.270 --> 01:27:54.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I had the opportunity
[01:28:00.010 --> 01:28:06.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: to the proliferating technologies, which create, uh, governments dealing with certain ethical issues.
[01:28:06.770 --> 01:28:24.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it, it seems that the UN does not have, say, like, um, a future studies division, but it's something that I think is very needed because if you look at the computer records, in other words, the government right now is actually denying access to people such as reporters under the,
[01:28:24.670 --> 01:28:37.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: uh, Freedom of Information Act based on their, their, their, their, um, deciding that computer records are not, um, uh, are not, uh, they're not, because they're not paper files.
[01:28:37.410 --> 01:28:40.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, they're, uh, not considered records by the U.S.
[01:28:40.270 --> 01:28:40.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: government.
[01:28:40.510 --> 01:28:42.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's an important issue.
[01:28:42.690 --> 01:28:45.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're not considered in the same way as, uh, as regular data.
[01:28:46.070 --> 01:28:46.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[01:28:46.890 --> 01:28:47.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[01:28:47.490 --> 01:28:49.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is very, very scary.
[01:28:50.050 --> 01:28:53.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: I also happen to be, um, an African American.
[01:28:53.630 --> 01:29:13.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I see the type of, uh, fascism just on the, the police level and, you know, in terms of what we experience here, our history in this country, it's, it's, it's something that, you know, you, the people who, uh, if you would say that they're up in their ivory towers or everything seems to be okay and I have nothing to hide,
[01:29:13.510 --> 01:29:20.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: I have nothing to fear, but you know, we're really going toward a, um, uh, a brave new world, if you will.
[01:29:21.270 --> 01:29:37.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and just signing off here, I would like, um, Steve, if he would just kind of hone in on some of the, the really activist things that we, we can do in, in terms of, of your particular, your plight and where are you going from here.
[01:29:37.310 --> 01:29:39.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll hang up and listen to your response.
[01:29:39.130 --> 01:29:39.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for your call.
[01:29:40.090 --> 01:29:40.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:29:41.790 --> 01:29:42.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve?
[01:29:42.530 --> 01:29:42.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[01:29:43.330 --> 01:30:02.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I don't know, uh, I'm, I'm new enough to this that I don't really know where the, where the pressure points are that can get a response out of a, a federal agency that is, is accustomed to working in secret and having its own way.
[01:30:02.550 --> 01:30:20.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that probably writing your senators and congressmen and just suggesting that they, they make themselves aware of the kind of things that are going on is probably the best thing to do is let them, I mean, all, all through, all through our history,
[01:30:20.810 --> 01:30:34.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: um, it's been a, a fight between, you know, people who are really, really guarding the freedoms and people who will, will take them away.
[01:30:34.370 --> 01:30:53.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the tactic that you see happening over and over again is making a great imaginary menace and then taking away people's rights in order to deal with the imaginary menace, just like the Americans of Japanese ancestry were rounded up and, and caged during the second world war.
[01:30:53.070 --> 01:31:07.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, they, they, they were supposed to be a terrible menace and, uh, certain, certain elements got, got enough people in the government very excited about that, that there was a terrible human rights injustice.
[01:31:08.310 --> 01:31:15.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: This isn't on such a gross scale, but I, it threatens anybody who, who uses a computer.
[01:31:16.050 --> 01:31:18.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, it doesn't have to be on a gross scale.
[01:31:18.590 --> 01:31:26.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Any, uh, any situation is arrived at by a series of steps, whether it's a small step, whether it's a large step, it's a step all the same.
[01:31:26.970 --> 01:31:43.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, step, I don't think that, uh, that we want to take, uh, for those of you interested in pursuing this further, uh, you may want to, uh, to get a pen and paper handy because, uh, we'll tell you all the facts as far as, as, uh, what is going on.
[01:31:48.610 --> 01:31:59.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, to, uh, to sum up, uh, Steve Jackson Games, uh, was rated on, um, on March, March 1st, was it?
[01:32:00.850 --> 01:32:01.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, are you there?
[01:32:02.550 --> 01:32:06.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, uh, Steve, uh, I guess he's off, oh, he's off the line.
[01:32:06.850 --> 01:32:07.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-oh.
[01:32:07.190 --> 01:32:08.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: We seem to have lost Steve.
[01:32:08.470 --> 01:32:09.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll, uh, we'll get him back in a moment.
[01:32:10.710 --> 01:32:19.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, Steve Jackson Games was rated on March 1st, 1990, in Austin, Texas, by the Secret Service.
[01:32:19.890 --> 01:32:22.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, that's, um, that's something right there.
[01:32:22.650 --> 01:32:24.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, a factual bit of information.
[01:32:25.090 --> 01:32:26.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Nobody is disputing that.
[01:32:26.390 --> 01:32:31.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you want to write a letter to your congressman, uh, that is one of the facts that you should include.
[01:32:32.150 --> 01:32:34.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, however, that's only one aspect to all of this.
[01:32:34.910 --> 01:32:37.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: The media is the other big player here.
[01:32:37.570 --> 01:32:47.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you alert the media, as Steve said before, the Secret Service was very upset by the publicity that, uh, that this story was receiving.
[01:32:48.130 --> 01:32:54.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And keep in mind, the publicity hasn't exactly been, um, the kind of publicity you're hearing tonight on WBAI.
[01:32:54.470 --> 01:33:00.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: The publicity has been, uh, pretty much sensationalism.
[01:33:01.470 --> 01:33:05.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm using a, a nice word there compared to the words I could use.
[01:33:06.110 --> 01:33:14.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, that kind of, uh, story and this kind of story are something that, uh, the Secret Service certainly does not want to see.
[01:33:14.630 --> 01:33:16.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And one has to wonder why.
[01:33:17.810 --> 01:33:28.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, um, writing letters to the newspapers, calling the newspapers, calling the TV stations and the radio stations and saying, why aren't you covering this story and giving them the facts?
[01:33:29.530 --> 01:33:37.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, uh, that's something that will have an effect because all it takes is one story.
[01:33:38.230 --> 01:33:42.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: One story on the news at six, one story in the, in the newspapers.
[01:33:44.070 --> 01:33:45.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then you'll start seeing results.
[01:33:46.730 --> 01:33:47.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Look at yourself.
[01:33:47.870 --> 01:33:48.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to this now.
[01:33:48.990 --> 01:33:51.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're hearing about this perhaps for the first time.
[01:33:52.170 --> 01:33:54.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you didn't know about this yesterday.
[01:33:55.230 --> 01:33:59.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you're hearing about it because one radio station is doing something.
[01:34:00.590 --> 01:34:01.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:34:01.190 --> 01:34:05.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: So there's a bunch of things you as individual people can do.
[01:34:05.350 --> 01:34:08.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can contact your media people.
[01:34:09.170 --> 01:34:11.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can contact your elected representatives.
[01:34:11.970 --> 01:34:28.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: And certainly not least important, you can help support WBAI because doing that will, uh, ensure that we don't miss a story like this in the future, that we are here to keep our eyes open and to spread the word about situations like this.
[01:34:29.210 --> 01:34:40.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: So give a call to 279-3400 and also get a copy, get a, uh, a full year subscription to 2600 magazine when you, when you make that call.
[01:34:41.490 --> 01:35:01.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: 2600 magazine has donated an unlimited amount of, uh, of subscriptions to this radio station because, uh, that's a donation to the cause of freedom of speech, to the cause of education with high technology and, uh, all the assorted issues that go with it.
[01:35:01.330 --> 01:35:09.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not just, uh, a technical journal, although there are sections of it that are very technical, but it's also a social journal.
[01:35:09.450 --> 01:35:17.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's also the only way you're going to find out about the abuses of high tech by the authorities.
[01:35:19.090 --> 01:35:22.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: And those abuses are going on left and right.
[01:35:22.930 --> 01:35:29.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to get into the rest of this whole story in just a little bit, but we want to see those phones ring.
[01:35:29.870 --> 01:35:31.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we're going to take a short musical break.
[01:35:31.910 --> 01:35:32.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to come back.
[01:35:32.990 --> 01:35:37.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: During that short musical break, I intend to journey down to Talley and find out how we've been doing.
[01:35:37.770 --> 01:35:40.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it would sure make me happy to see the Talley people busy.
[01:35:42.070 --> 01:35:45.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, we need a strong response.
[01:35:45.510 --> 01:35:50.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: We need to keep this station going because we're radio producers.
[01:35:50.250 --> 01:35:55.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're people that, uh, go out there and find stories like this and bring it to you.
[01:35:55.430 --> 01:35:57.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're not, we're not professional salesmen.
[01:35:57.770 --> 01:36:00.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why we, we sound clumsy when we ask for money.
[01:36:01.250 --> 01:36:03.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't bother me that I sound clumsy asking for money.
[01:36:03.950 --> 01:36:05.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, that's just the way it is.
[01:36:05.170 --> 01:36:12.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd rather be able to, uh, to pursue a story and recognize a story when I see it than be a good salesman.
[01:36:12.510 --> 01:36:29.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, by giving a call to 279-3400, supporting this radio station, you're giving us a vote of confidence and you're, you're, you're telling the world that free speech, free ideas, they mean something.
[01:36:29.890 --> 01:36:30.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: They still mean something.
[01:36:31.010 --> 01:36:33.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me, let me read this one more time.
[01:36:33.930 --> 01:36:39.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've been carrying this with me all day long, and I've been showing it to people left and right.
[01:36:39.890 --> 01:36:42.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you know, a lot of people don't even know what this is.
[01:36:42.490 --> 01:36:44.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't, they didn't know it was so compact.
[01:36:44.710 --> 01:36:46.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: The first amendment, folks, here it is.
[01:36:46.790 --> 01:36:51.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: The first amendment on this little piece of paper, complete and unabridged.
[01:36:52.610 --> 01:37:10.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Congress shall make no law respecting an, uh, an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
[01:37:11.490 --> 01:37:12.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: You should memorize that.
[01:37:13.290 --> 01:37:16.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: You should memorize that and quote it when necessary.
[01:37:16.410 --> 01:37:19.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, I'd like to see a, a song have that as the lyrics.
[01:37:20.150 --> 01:37:22.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe a hardcore band would write that or something.
[01:37:22.670 --> 01:37:26.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's, uh, it's so important that we know this, that we remain educated.
[01:37:27.570 --> 01:37:33.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you get 2600 delivered to you, you'll remain educated, believe me.
[01:37:34.050 --> 01:37:41.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: So give a call to 279-3400, make that pledge, support WBAI and help yourself out.
[01:37:41.970 --> 01:37:44.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to try to, to get through to Steve again.
[01:37:45.230 --> 01:37:49.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, we're going to get to the rest of this story right after this.
[01:37:49.510 --> 01:37:54.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: I told you before, stay away from my door.
[01:37:54.810 --> 01:37:59.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Don't give me that brother, brother, brother, brother.
[01:38:00.790 --> 01:38:06.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: The freaks on the phone won't leave me alone.
[01:38:06.750 --> 01:38:12.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: So don't give me that brother, brother, brother, brother, brother, brother.
[01:38:22.480 --> 01:38:24.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: I found out.
[01:38:25.940 --> 01:38:30.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now that I showed you what I've been through.
[01:38:31.560 --> 01:38:33.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Don't take no much work.
[01:38:33.840 --> 01:38:35.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: What you can do.
[01:38:36.780 --> 01:38:41.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: There ain't no Jesus gonna come from the sky.
[01:38:41.980 --> 01:38:44.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now that I've found out.
[01:38:44.860 --> 01:38:46.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know I can cry.
[01:38:47.260 --> 01:38:50.900]  I found out.
[01:38:52.640 --> 01:38:56.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, I found out.
[01:38:57.860 --> 01:39:02.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Some of you sitting there with your cock in your hand.
[01:39:03.120 --> 01:39:05.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Don't get you nowhere.
[01:39:05.740 --> 01:39:07.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Don't make you a man.
[01:39:08.840 --> 01:39:10.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: I heard there's something
[01:39:16.300 --> 01:39:17.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: there's something.
[01:39:19.280 --> 01:39:22.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: I found out.
[01:39:26.010 --> 01:39:28.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: I found out.
[01:39:28.310 --> 01:39:28.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: I found out.
[01:39:53.270 --> 01:39:55.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I'll be crushed.
[01:39:55.630 --> 01:39:57.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Got nothing of you.
[01:39:58.370 --> 01:40:00.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just keep you crazy.
[01:40:01.030 --> 01:40:03.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're nothing to do.
[01:40:03.070 --> 01:40:03.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: For you.
[01:40:03.910 --> 01:40:05.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: You occupied.
[01:40:06.730 --> 01:40:07.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: You occupied.
[01:40:07.250 --> 01:40:08.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Behind your side.
[01:40:09.110 --> 01:40:14.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: There ain't no good rule that can see through your eyes.
[01:40:16.340 --> 01:40:17.860]  I found out.
[01:40:27.200 --> 01:40:29.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've been through it all.
[01:40:30.020 --> 01:40:34.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: I see religion from Jesus to Paul.
[01:41:16.340 --> 01:41:18.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Damn it, that's a good song.
[01:41:18.580 --> 01:41:23.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: John Lennon from, uh, his first album, Plastic Ono Band, 1970.
[01:41:23.820 --> 01:41:24.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ooh, 20 years ago.
[01:41:25.220 --> 01:41:26.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I found out.
[01:41:27.220 --> 01:41:28.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's a quarter after one.
[01:41:28.880 --> 01:41:30.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[01:41:31.020 --> 01:41:32.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: We found Steve Jackson again.
[01:41:32.460 --> 01:41:33.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, good morning.
[01:41:33.900 --> 01:41:34.560]  Good morning.
[01:41:36.830 --> 01:41:39.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, for some inexplicable reason, we got disconnected.
[01:41:39.410 --> 01:41:40.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't know why.
[01:41:40.310 --> 01:41:41.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe something's going on out there.
[01:41:41.730 --> 01:41:42.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[01:41:42.450 --> 01:41:45.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: The response has been, uh, has been fairly good.
[01:41:45.210 --> 01:41:47.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it can be a little bit better, though.
[01:41:47.750 --> 01:41:48.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: I really do.
[01:41:48.930 --> 01:41:50.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, 279-3400.
[01:41:50.890 --> 01:41:52.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Show your support for WBAI.
[01:41:52.930 --> 01:41:54.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: We do need volunteers.
[01:41:54.570 --> 01:41:57.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: We need people to help us answer the phone.
[01:41:57.650 --> 01:42:00.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it's a lot of fun to answer the phone, too, by the way.
[01:42:00.270 --> 01:42:02.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, I never forget the first time I did that.
[01:42:02.990 --> 01:42:05.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, 212-279-3400.
[01:42:05.290 --> 01:42:11.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you want to donate something to WBAI, or if you want to volunteer your time as well, uh, that would be just great.
[01:42:11.490 --> 01:42:24.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, for $55, you'll get a subscription to 2600 Magazine, and you can find out the latest, the things that you won't see in Newsday, you won't see in the Post, you won't see in the Times, you won't see anyplace else.
[01:42:24.370 --> 01:42:25.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: You gotta wonder why.
[01:42:26.330 --> 01:42:28.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[01:42:28.650 --> 01:42:29.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the number to call.
[01:42:29.830 --> 01:42:43.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, um, why don't you give out your phone number again, and also, I was thinking it'd be nice if, uh, if people could be assured of, uh, of getting a copy of, of the latest game that you put out, the game that was seized by the Secret Service.
[01:42:44.230 --> 01:42:47.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, is there a place they can write to to get that?
[01:42:48.170 --> 01:42:55.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we always encourage people to give their business to the local retailer, because the community business needs all the help it can get.
[01:42:55.210 --> 01:42:58.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: But yes, someone who can't find it locally can, can write to us.
[01:42:59.090 --> 01:43:00.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will sell them by mail.
[01:43:01.490 --> 01:43:03.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, let's see.
[01:43:03.390 --> 01:43:11.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, okay, our phone number is 512-447-7866.
[01:43:12.650 --> 01:43:18.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: If anyone out there has a modem and wants to call our bulletin board, we'd welcome that.
[01:43:18.410 --> 01:43:24.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's 512-447-4449.
[01:43:26.170 --> 01:43:44.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we could take a mail order for, for, for the game at box 18957, Austin, Texas, 78760.
[01:43:46.790 --> 01:43:50.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not quite sure of what the price is supposed to be.
[01:43:50.210 --> 01:43:56.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a little bit over $18.50, so let me just say that anybody who sends us $18.50, that's the postage and handling price.
[01:43:56.890 --> 01:44:00.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anybody who sends us $18.50, you know, tell them, tell them Steve said that was all right.
[01:44:01.290 --> 01:44:03.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, what's, what's the name of the game again?
[01:44:03.770 --> 01:44:06.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, GURPS, G-U-R-P-S, Cyberpunk.
[01:44:09.770 --> 01:44:10.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:44:10.190 --> 01:44:20.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, people that, uh, that want to communicate with Steve Jackson about this information, uh, are encouraged to, uh, to call, to write, and to keep abreast of the situation.
[01:44:20.530 --> 01:44:31.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, uh, keep in touch with your local media, keep in touch with your local elected representatives, because they're the ones that really have a lot of control over this kind of situation, a lot of power.
[01:44:32.030 --> 01:44:36.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, um, I think that's something that we're going to have to demonstrate in the, in the weeks ahead.
[01:44:36.890 --> 01:44:41.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Steve, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us, and, uh, wish you all the luck in the world.
[01:44:42.350 --> 01:44:43.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[01:44:43.250 --> 01:44:46.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for calling, and I enjoyed the show.
[01:44:46.230 --> 01:44:47.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I learned from it.
[01:44:47.390 --> 01:44:48.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just wish I could hear the rest.
[01:44:48.930 --> 01:44:52.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you, you all out there who can hear the rest, have fun with it.
[01:44:53.730 --> 01:44:54.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:44:54.230 --> 01:44:56.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we're on for another, uh, two hours and ten minutes.
[01:44:56.590 --> 01:45:02.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, um, again, thanks very much for participating, and, uh, we'll be keeping people updated as to, uh, what goes on in the future.
[01:45:03.150 --> 01:45:04.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you, Emmanuel.
[01:45:04.290 --> 01:45:04.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:45:04.610 --> 01:45:04.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good night.
[01:45:05.190 --> 01:45:05.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good night.
[01:45:05.930 --> 01:45:11.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've been talking with Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas.
[01:45:11.650 --> 01:45:13.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: He runs a publishing company.
[01:45:13.370 --> 01:45:31.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: His publishing company was raided by the Secret Service on March 1st, and a game, a role-playing game, and its manuscript was seized and taken away as evidence in some still as yet undetermined computer hacker case.
[01:45:32.410 --> 01:45:33.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's very strange.
[01:45:33.710 --> 01:45:36.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's very odd, and we don't really know where it's heading.
[01:45:36.670 --> 01:45:39.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we do know there's a lot more to tell you about.
[01:45:39.870 --> 01:45:55.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got John Perry Barlow, a writer from Wyoming, who's going to be, uh, our next guest as we explore the emergency 911 system, the connections with the Legion of Doom, and the shutting down of a newsletter.
[01:45:56.670 --> 01:45:58.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: All coming up here on WBAI.
[01:45:58.690 --> 01:46:00.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, 279-3400.
[01:46:01.050 --> 01:46:02.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have to see those phones light up.
[01:46:02.770 --> 01:46:08.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got to see the support coming in, because only through your support can we continue doing this.
[01:46:08.490 --> 01:46:14.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Folks, if we put commercials on, do you think they'd let us do programs like this?
[01:46:14.950 --> 01:46:28.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Think how many, uh, corporate sponsors would, uh, would find it rather uncomfortable dealing with a program that talks about, uh, hackers and, and individuality above all else, that kind of thing.
[01:46:29.690 --> 01:46:40.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it sounds, it sounds nice when you, you know, when you talk about it, and the concepts of individuality are something we should all be fighting for, but put into practice.
[01:46:41.630 --> 01:46:42.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not profitable.
[01:46:42.830 --> 01:46:50.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not something that, uh, that you want to devote a lot of time to, because it's, it's controversial with a lot of people.
[01:46:50.350 --> 01:47:06.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, criticizing the Secret Service on the radio, that comes down to criticizing the government on the radio, and, you know, a sponsor would not want to be associated with that, so we'd have to tone down our programming to please the sponsors.
[01:47:08.310 --> 01:47:09.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a catch-22.
[01:47:10.730 --> 01:47:14.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we don't have sponsors, we don't have a source of income.
[01:47:14.610 --> 01:47:18.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why we need our listeners to be that source of income.
[01:47:18.610 --> 01:47:28.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Think of it, for only $55 for the entire year, you can be assured that you're doing your bit to keep WBAI going.
[01:47:29.010 --> 01:47:32.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll become a part, you'll be investing in this radio station.
[01:47:32.510 --> 01:47:41.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll become a part of WBAI, and as incentive, we're sending you a year of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly.
[01:47:42.150 --> 01:47:49.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: It'll be your way of keeping in touch, finding out what's going on in the world of high tech, and boy, what a fascinating world it is.
[01:47:49.990 --> 01:47:53.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: A fascinating world, and a very scary world, if you don't know what's happening.
[01:47:54.290 --> 01:48:00.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you don't know how you can be monitored, and how your freedoms can be curtailed.
[01:48:00.710 --> 01:48:03.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not just by having the Secret Service beat down your door.
[01:48:04.130 --> 01:48:05.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every time you pick up the phone.
[01:48:07.010 --> 01:48:10.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every time you make a banking transaction or use your Visa card.
[01:48:12.630 --> 01:48:16.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every time you do just about anything today.
[01:48:17.890 --> 01:48:19.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wouldn't it be nice to understand all of that?
[01:48:21.510 --> 01:48:27.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, make your pledge, and make a stand at the same time.
[01:48:27.590 --> 01:48:28.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Area code 212.
[01:48:29.070 --> 01:48:31.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to get on to the next part of our program.
[01:48:31.590 --> 01:48:33.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: First, a public service announcement.
[01:48:34.170 --> 01:48:34.890]  You
[01:49:13.620 --> 01:49:16.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: must not relent.
[01:49:17.260 --> 01:49:20.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: What are the neighbors and the profits involved?
[01:49:21.040 --> 01:49:24.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: What are they saying in the public bazaars?
[01:49:27.230 --> 01:49:29.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're tired of the tune.
[01:49:29.630 --> 01:49:31.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: You must not relent.
[01:49:31.930 --> 01:49:35.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: At every stroke of the bell in the tower there goes.
[01:49:35.450 --> 01:49:38.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Another boy from another side.
[01:49:55.680 --> 01:49:58.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: And let's hear those guns tattooed.
[01:49:58.480 --> 01:49:59.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Parole on the drums.
[01:50:00.500 --> 01:50:03.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: No one mentions the neighboring walls.
[01:50:04.200 --> 01:50:07.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: No one knows what the fighting is for.
[01:50:10.420 --> 01:50:12.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're tired of the tune.
[01:50:12.840 --> 01:50:13.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: You must not relent.
[01:50:14.400 --> 01:50:16.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's this different kind of chemical system.
[01:50:16.580 --> 01:50:18.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Two dogs and plushes.
[01:50:18.220 --> 01:50:19.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Keeps the water crystal clear.
[01:50:19.860 --> 01:50:23.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Keeps the walls smartly clean continuously for about four months.
[01:50:23.360 --> 01:50:25.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: No rings, no strings, no stains.
[01:50:25.500 --> 01:50:27.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just put the container in your tank and forget it.
[01:50:27.780 --> 01:50:32.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Every time you flush, the chlorine crystals dissolve away rust and minerals before dirt rings and stains appear.
[01:50:32.860 --> 01:50:34.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Plushing sure beats brushing.
[01:50:36.200 --> 01:50:39.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: The generals bow to the government.
[01:50:39.500 --> 01:50:41.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're tired of the tune.
[01:50:41.520 --> 01:50:42.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: You must not relent.
[01:50:57.020 --> 01:50:59.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Talk about corporate pressure.
[01:50:59.440 --> 01:51:17.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know the Clash were forced to take out that middle part of the song with the commercial about the toilet flushing because the company that does that actual toilet flushing got all upset and said they didn't want to be associated with that anti-government song which the Clash put out back in 1982.
[01:51:17.760 --> 01:51:25.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so they were forced on all the insuring records to eliminate that part of the song, which I think is the best part of the song.
[01:51:27.400 --> 01:51:34.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, fortunately, some of us bought a whole lot of the earlier versions and saved them for just such a special occasion.
[01:51:35.100 --> 01:51:36.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it shows you the power.
[01:51:36.580 --> 01:51:42.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: The power that entities can have when they don't want some form of expression to be voiced.
[01:51:44.020 --> 01:51:49.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, certainly, there are many, many entities that don't want our form of expression to be expressed.
[01:51:50.360 --> 01:51:56.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we know, we can see by the response we're getting tonight, that there are a lot of you out there that do care.
[01:51:56.440 --> 01:52:00.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, please, if you have not called yet, make that call now.
[01:52:01.600 --> 01:52:07.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because when we see numbers pile in, when we see lots of people calling, it gives us inspiration.
[01:52:07.020 --> 01:52:08.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: It makes us want to go further.
[01:52:09.280 --> 01:52:10.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because we know you're out there.
[01:52:10.740 --> 01:52:12.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: We know you care enough to support the station.
[01:52:14.000 --> 01:52:15.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[01:52:16.480 --> 01:52:18.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And keep thoughts like this coming.
[01:52:18.740 --> 01:52:22.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't want to spend a whole lot of time pitching and begging for money.
[01:52:22.640 --> 01:52:23.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have to, unfortunately.
[01:52:23.980 --> 01:52:26.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's just the rules of the game here.
[01:52:26.720 --> 01:52:30.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, we don't want to spend a whole lot of time on it.
[01:52:30.160 --> 01:52:31.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, if we see some calls come in.
[01:52:32.120 --> 01:52:36.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we see some more calls come in while this next bit is going on.
[01:52:36.320 --> 01:52:38.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Then, we won't have to spend a whole lot of time on it.
[01:52:39.160 --> 01:52:41.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, 212-279-3400.
[01:52:41.720 --> 01:52:46.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: For a pledge of $55, you'll get a full year of 2600 Magazine.
[01:52:47.220 --> 01:52:51.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you'll find out all about computer hackers and what they're up to.
[01:52:52.060 --> 01:52:53.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, what the government is up to.
[01:52:54.560 --> 01:52:56.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, all kinds of other fascinating tidbits.
[01:52:58.400 --> 01:52:58.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[01:52:59.040 --> 01:53:00.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Continuing with the story.
[01:53:00.340 --> 01:53:02.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've been speaking with Steve Jackson.
[01:53:02.660 --> 01:53:04.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas.
[01:53:05.760 --> 01:53:07.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whose company was raided by the Secret Service.
[01:53:08.020 --> 01:53:12.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, that was only one part of this whole big story.
[01:53:13.140 --> 01:53:18.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's go back to the 2600 story from the spring issue of 1990.
[01:53:19.680 --> 01:53:22.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, learn about another magazine.
[01:53:22.600 --> 01:53:24.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Another electronic newsletter.
[01:53:24.440 --> 01:53:26.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, in case you missed the explanation before.
[01:53:26.320 --> 01:53:29.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: An electronic newsletter is one that you get over a computer.
[01:53:29.660 --> 01:53:31.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: You get it through the telephone lines.
[01:53:31.640 --> 01:53:33.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, it comes up on your computer screen.
[01:53:33.380 --> 01:53:35.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or, you get it as a diskette.
[01:53:36.040 --> 01:53:38.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: That you put into your computer and read the data that way.
[01:53:38.980 --> 01:53:39.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Same thing though.
[01:53:39.820 --> 01:53:41.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's information.
[01:53:42.180 --> 01:53:45.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Information being passed around in a different way.
[01:53:46.120 --> 01:53:48.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not on paper, but on disk.
[01:53:48.740 --> 01:53:51.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of course, you can print it out on paper, and then it becomes on paper.
[01:53:51.260 --> 01:53:53.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, that's not the way it originally comes out.
[01:53:54.960 --> 01:53:57.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, in St. Louis.
[01:53:57.580 --> 01:53:58.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: St. Louis, Missouri.
[01:53:58.760 --> 01:54:01.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was such an electronic newsletter.
[01:54:01.380 --> 01:54:02.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was known as Phrack.
[01:54:02.620 --> 01:54:04.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: P-H-R-A-C-K.
[01:54:04.140 --> 01:54:05.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: A mixture of the word PHREAK.
[01:54:06.180 --> 01:54:08.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Spelled with a P-H for phone phreaks.
[01:54:08.700 --> 01:54:09.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, HACK.
[01:54:09.700 --> 01:54:10.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Computer hackers.
[01:54:10.960 --> 01:54:14.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a newsletter about phone phreaks and computer hackers.
[01:54:14.440 --> 01:54:16.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, what kind of things went on.
[01:54:17.960 --> 01:54:20.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: The strange and mystical world of computer hackers.
[01:54:21.340 --> 01:54:25.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, this electronic newsletter would come out about every month or so.
[01:54:26.440 --> 01:54:29.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: With all kinds of assorted files.
[01:54:31.200 --> 01:54:33.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, it was distributed worldwide.
[01:54:33.680 --> 01:54:37.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could be found on just about all hacker bulletin boards.
[01:54:38.140 --> 01:54:45.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, while dealing with sensitive material, the editors of this magazine were very careful not to publish anything illegal.
[01:54:45.120 --> 01:54:52.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Such as, credit card numbers, passwords, sprint codes, MCI codes, AT&T, calling cards.
[01:54:52.280 --> 01:54:53.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: That kind of thing, you know.
[01:54:54.020 --> 01:54:55.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, that's not legal.
[01:54:56.080 --> 01:54:58.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, hackers know that.
[01:54:58.640 --> 01:55:00.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, believe it or not.
[01:55:00.680 --> 01:55:03.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Most hackers don't want to do things that are illegal.
[01:55:03.800 --> 01:55:14.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, 2600 described Phrack World News, which was a regular column of the Phrack newsletter, as a must-read for many hackers.
[01:55:15.060 --> 01:55:23.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, in many ways, Phrack resembled 2600, with the exception of being sent via electronic mail instead of US mail.
[01:55:23.720 --> 01:55:28.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, that distinction would prove to be Phrack's undoing.
[01:55:29.140 --> 01:55:36.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: It now turns out that all incoming and outgoing electronic mail used by Phrack was being monitored by the authorities.
[01:55:36.740 --> 01:55:41.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every piece of mail going in, and every piece of mail coming out.
[01:55:42.380 --> 01:55:46.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: These were not pirated mailboxes that were being used by a couple of hackers.
[01:55:46.500 --> 01:55:52.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: These had been obtained legally through the school the two Phrack editors were attending.
[01:55:53.680 --> 01:55:59.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, privacy on such mailboxes, though not guaranteed, could always be assumed.
[01:55:59.720 --> 01:56:01.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, never again.
[01:56:01.940 --> 01:56:10.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's fairly obvious that none of this would have happened, none of this could have happened, had Phrack been a non-electronic magazine.
[01:56:10.780 --> 01:56:16.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: A printed magazine would not be intimidated into giving up its mailing list as Phrack was.
[01:56:17.960 --> 01:56:28.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Had a printed magazine been shut down in this fashion after having all of their mail opened and read, even the most thick-headed sensationalist media types would have caught on.
[01:56:28.540 --> 01:56:31.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: They would have said, isn't that a violation of the First Amendment?
[01:56:32.420 --> 01:56:33.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Reading their mail?
[01:56:33.960 --> 01:56:34.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Opening their mail?
[01:56:35.600 --> 01:56:37.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Seizing their mailing list?
[01:56:37.640 --> 01:56:38.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Shutting them down?
[01:56:41.260 --> 01:56:51.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, those media people who understood what was happening and saw the implications were very quickly drowned out in the hysteria that followed, because indictments were being handed out.
[01:56:53.100 --> 01:57:11.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And one of the publishers and editors of Phrack, whose name is Craig Neidorf, who is known in the hacker world as Night Lightning, he was hit with a seven-count indictment accusing him of participating in a scheme to steal information about the enhanced 911 system run by Bell South.
[01:57:12.160 --> 01:57:19.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And very quickly, headlines screamed that hackers had broken into the 911 system and were interfering with emergency telephone calls to the police.
[01:57:21.440 --> 01:57:28.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: One newspaper report said there were no indications that anyone had died or been injured as a result of the intrusions.
[01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:31.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Quite a relief, isn't it?
[01:57:32.240 --> 01:57:34.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Unfortunately, it's not quite true.
[01:57:35.060 --> 01:57:40.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: In actuality, there have been very grievous injuries suffered as a result of these intrusions.
[01:57:40.800 --> 01:57:46.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the intrusions we're referring to are those of the government and the media.
[01:57:47.020 --> 01:57:54.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: The injuries have been suffered by the defendants, who will have great difficulty resuming normal lives, even if all of this is forgotten tomorrow.
[01:57:56.020 --> 01:58:04.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if it's not forgotten, Craig Neidorf could go to jail for more than 30 years and be fined $122,000.
[01:58:05.660 --> 01:58:06.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And for what?
[01:58:07.480 --> 01:58:09.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we have a copy of the indictment.
[01:58:09.800 --> 01:58:12.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's go through a little bit of it.
[01:58:14.420 --> 01:58:29.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was part of the scheme that Defendant Neidorf, utilizing a computer at the University of Missouri in Columbia, Missouri, would and did receive a copy of the stolen E911 text file from Defendant Robert J.
[01:58:30.120 --> 01:58:42.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Riggs, who was located in Atlanta and known in the hacker world as Profit, through the Lockport, Illinois computer bulletin board system through the use of an interstate computer data network.
[01:58:42.080 --> 01:59:03.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was further part of the scheme that Defendant Nardorff would and did edit and retype the E911 practice text file at the request of the Defendant Riggs in order to conceal the source of the E911 practice text file and to prepare it for publication in a computer hacker newsletter.
[01:59:05.100 --> 01:59:20.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was further part of the scheme that Defendant Nardorff would and did transfer the stolen E911 practice text file through the use of an interstate computer bulletin board system used by Defendant Riggs in Lockport, Illinois.
[01:59:20.300 --> 01:59:41.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was further part of the scheme that the Defendant Riggs and Nardorff would publish information to other computer hackers which could be used to gain unauthorized access to emergency E911 computer systems in the United States and thereby disrupt or halt E911 service in portions of the United States.
[01:59:42.280 --> 01:59:45.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, that's a look at the indictment.
[01:59:46.080 --> 01:59:51.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, Nardorff is being charged with receiving a stolen document.
[01:59:52.160 --> 01:59:56.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, there's nothing anywhere in the indictment that even suggests he entered any computer illegally.
[01:59:57.460 --> 01:59:59.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or at all, for that matter.
[01:59:59.120 --> 02:00:04.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: So his crimes are receiving, editing, and transmitting.
[02:00:05.800 --> 02:00:09.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, what is contained in this document?
[02:00:10.980 --> 02:00:17.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Information about how to gain unauthorized access to, disrupt, or halt 911 service?
[02:00:18.160 --> 02:00:19.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hardly.
[02:00:19.660 --> 02:00:36.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: The document, which was erroneously referred to as 911 software by the media, which caused all kinds of misunderstandings, that document is quoted in Phrack Volume 2, Number 24, and makes for one of the dullest articles ever to appear in the newsletter.
[02:00:38.460 --> 02:00:44.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And according to the indictment, the value of this six-page document is $79,449.
[02:00:49.790 --> 02:00:56.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, you may recall that the Legion of Doom has been implicated in all of this.
[02:00:56.420 --> 02:01:04.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, shortly after all these indictments were handed down, a member of the Legion of Doom, known as Eric Bloodaxe, issued a public statement.
[02:01:05.620 --> 02:01:06.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it read as follows.
[02:01:07.160 --> 02:01:13.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: A group of three hackers ended up pulling files off a Southern Bell system for them to look at.
[02:01:14.500 --> 02:01:16.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is usually standard procedure.
[02:01:16.360 --> 02:01:24.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: You get on a system, look around for interesting text, buffer it, which means save it to your computer, and maybe print it out for posterity.
[02:01:25.120 --> 02:01:40.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: No member of LOD, Legion of Doom, has ever, to my knowledge, broken into another system and used any information gained from it for personal gain of any kind, with the exception of maybe a big boost in his reputation around the Underground.
[02:01:41.400 --> 02:01:45.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: A hacker took the documentation to the system and wrote a file about it.
[02:01:45.060 --> 02:01:46.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are actually two files.
[02:01:47.100 --> 02:01:48.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: One is an overview, the other is a glossary.
[02:01:49.240 --> 02:01:57.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: The information is hardly something anyone could possibly gain anything from, except knowledge about how a certain aspect of the telephone company works.
[02:01:59.000 --> 02:02:05.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: He went on to say that Nidoff would have had no way of knowing whether or not the file contained proprietary information.
[02:02:07.280 --> 02:02:15.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, prosecutors refuse to say how hackers could benefit from the information, nor would they cite a motive or reveal any actual damage.
[02:02:16.040 --> 02:02:21.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: In addition, it's widely speculated that much of this information is readily available as reference material.
[02:02:23.400 --> 02:02:40.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, in all the indictments, the Legion of Doom is defined as a closely-knit group of computer hackers involved in A, disrupting telecommunications by entering computerized telephone switches and changing the routing on the circuits of the computerized switches.
[02:02:40.860 --> 02:02:49.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: B, stealing proprietary computer source code and information from companies and individuals that own the code and information.
[02:02:49.040 --> 02:02:56.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: C, stealing and modifying credit information on individuals maintained in credit bureau computers.
[02:02:57.480 --> 02:03:05.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: D, fraudulently obtaining money and property from companies by altering the computerized information used by the companies.
[02:03:06.140 --> 02:03:18.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: E, disseminating information with respect to their methods of attacking computers to other computer hackers in an effort to avoid the focus of law enforcement agencies and telecommunications security experts.
[02:03:19.710 --> 02:03:20.280]  It's...
[02:03:21.960 --> 02:03:22.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ironically...
[02:03:24.050 --> 02:03:38.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Since the Legion of Doom isn't a closely-knit group, and anybody who's involved in computer hacking can tell you that, since they're not a closely-knit group, it's very unlikely that anyone will be able to defend the group's name against these charges,
[02:03:39.000 --> 02:03:43.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: because any defendants will naturally be preoccupied with their own defenses.
[02:03:44.340 --> 02:03:59.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just to, uh, clear up another, uh, point here, uh, Craig Neidorf of Phrack newsletter is not a part of the Legion of Doom, nor was Phrack a publication of LOD, as has been reported in the media left and right.
[02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:02.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we see here, we see quite a few things.
[02:04:02.740 --> 02:04:15.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: We see that, uh, the 9-1-1 software that these computer hackers had access to was actually a six-page document explaining some of the administrative functions of running a 9-1-1 system.
[02:04:16.750 --> 02:04:20.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Nothing outrageous, nothing that would allow you to gain control of the system.
[02:04:20.040 --> 02:04:29.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: However, if your only source of information were the major newspapers and the TV networks, you would be getting quite a different picture.
[02:04:29.920 --> 02:04:31.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Quite a different picture, indeed.
[02:04:33.140 --> 02:04:33.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And...
[02:04:33.800 --> 02:04:35.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: the upshot of this is that a...
[02:04:35.960 --> 02:04:39.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: a newsletter dealing with these issues has been shut down.
[02:04:39.700 --> 02:04:42.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Shut down by the authorities because...
[02:04:42.040 --> 02:04:44.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: what they were doing...
[02:04:44.860 --> 02:04:45.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: was dangerous.
[02:04:46.800 --> 02:04:48.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Discussing these things...
[02:04:48.820 --> 02:04:49.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: was a threat.
[02:04:51.880 --> 02:04:53.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Curiouser and curiouser.
[02:04:53.420 --> 02:04:54.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have...
[02:04:54.660 --> 02:04:56.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: on the phone line with us now...
[02:04:56.760 --> 02:04:58.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: John Perry Barlow...
[02:04:58.540 --> 02:04:59.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: from, uh...
[02:04:59.820 --> 02:05:00.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: the heart of Wyoming.
[02:05:02.100 --> 02:05:02.500]  Uh...
[02:05:02.500 --> 02:05:04.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: John, you're a writer, but, uh...
[02:05:04.520 --> 02:05:05.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: you're also a lot of other things.
[02:05:05.840 --> 02:05:07.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe you could spend a couple of seconds, uh...
[02:05:07.760 --> 02:05:09.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: telling us some of the other things you're up to.
[02:05:09.600 --> 02:05:11.200]  Uh, well, I'm an adult white male.
[02:05:11.640 --> 02:05:12.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh...
[02:05:12.000 --> 02:05:12.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, let's start.
[02:05:12.340 --> 02:05:13.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's always a good thing to be an American.
[02:05:15.020 --> 02:05:15.420]  Uh...
[02:05:15.420 --> 02:05:16.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Gee, let's see.
[02:05:16.280 --> 02:05:17.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I write for the Grateful Dead.
[02:05:17.980 --> 02:05:19.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I'm writing a book, uh...
[02:05:19.640 --> 02:05:22.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: for Viking about computers and consciousness.
[02:05:23.000 --> 02:05:25.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I was a cattle rancher for...
[02:05:25.670 --> 02:05:26.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: seventeen years.
[02:05:27.740 --> 02:05:29.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, on a real ranch.
[02:05:30.300 --> 02:05:30.820]  Um...
[02:05:30.820 --> 02:05:32.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: before I got involved in all this stuff.
[02:05:32.780 --> 02:05:34.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm, uh...
[02:05:34.380 --> 02:05:36.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: at the moment I find myself, uh...
[02:05:36.540 --> 02:05:38.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: increasingly, uh...
[02:05:39.100 --> 02:05:39.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh...
[02:05:39.400 --> 02:05:41.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: an advocate for, uh...
[02:05:41.440 --> 02:05:43.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: computer crackers and, uh...
[02:05:43.740 --> 02:05:44.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: something like a...
[02:05:44.760 --> 02:05:46.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: a legal scoutmaster for a small group of them.
[02:05:48.640 --> 02:05:49.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh...
[02:05:49.140 --> 02:05:49.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh...
[02:05:49.320 --> 02:05:53.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: very concerned about what's going on from the standpoint of civil liberties.
[02:05:53.440 --> 02:05:54.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I...
[02:05:54.360 --> 02:05:57.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm still a registered Republican, but, uh...
[02:05:58.200 --> 02:06:01.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I tend to be a conservative of the old school, which is that the...
[02:06:01.600 --> 02:06:03.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: that the best government is the least government.
[02:06:04.440 --> 02:06:05.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let me ask you.
[02:06:05.780 --> 02:06:07.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: How did you get involved in, uh...
[02:06:07.660 --> 02:06:09.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: in the high-tech world and, uh...
[02:06:09.720 --> 02:06:10.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: in the concept of hacking?
[02:06:11.560 --> 02:06:12.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, just lucky, I guess.
[02:06:13.700 --> 02:06:14.100]  Uh...
[02:06:14.100 --> 02:06:14.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I...
[02:06:14.600 --> 02:06:17.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's actually a longer story than you want to hear, I think.
[02:06:19.500 --> 02:06:19.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But...
[02:06:20.660 --> 02:06:21.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh...
[02:06:21.020 --> 02:06:23.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: a couple of years ago, I was asked...
[02:06:24.360 --> 02:06:28.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: by my collaborator in the Grateful Dead to go down with him to Apple Computer and, uh...
[02:06:30.100 --> 02:06:32.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: and help him give a lecture on songwriting with the Macintosh.
[02:06:32.960 --> 02:06:37.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And at that time, I didn't use a Macintosh, and neither did he, so the whole thing was kind of a fraud.
[02:06:39.780 --> 02:06:40.500]  But, uh...
[02:06:41.040 --> 02:06:41.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: the...
[02:06:41.400 --> 02:06:43.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Apple at that time had given a lot of...
[02:06:43.680 --> 02:06:49.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: of equipment to the Grateful Dead, and so we kind of had to get one for the core, and we went down there, and...
[02:06:49.040 --> 02:06:53.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: and I was gonna get up and say that it was very nice and get back down again, but I...
[02:06:54.760 --> 02:06:59.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: when I looked out at this sea of, uh, deadheads, I realized I couldn't...
[02:06:59.440 --> 02:07:02.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I couldn't lie to them, so I told them that I didn't use a Macintosh.
[02:07:03.080 --> 02:07:05.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought they were user-promiscuous and...
[02:07:05.920 --> 02:07:07.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: and glacially slow.
[02:07:08.900 --> 02:07:09.660]  And, um...
[02:07:10.220 --> 02:07:13.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: they all hooted and jeered, and I sat back down, and I thought that was the end of it.
[02:07:13.920 --> 02:07:14.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: But then...
[02:07:15.620 --> 02:07:17.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: some months later, I got a...
[02:07:17.320 --> 02:07:20.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: a letter from somebody at Apple saying that they wanted to give me a computer.
[02:07:21.900 --> 02:07:23.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought that was fine.
[02:07:25.880 --> 02:07:26.280]  Uh...
[02:07:26.280 --> 02:07:28.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: I could, like, let my kids use it or something.
[02:07:28.540 --> 02:07:29.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then...
[02:07:29.720 --> 02:07:32.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: then they didn't give me a computer, and time went on, and I...
[02:07:32.960 --> 02:07:37.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I started writing them a series of increasingly peevish letters about how it was perfectly okay not to...
[02:07:37.680 --> 02:07:41.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: not to give me a computer, but it wasn't okay to tell me they were gonna and then not do it.
[02:07:42.280 --> 02:07:47.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Finally, I got a phone call from somebody at Apple saying, well, your computer is in the mail, and furthermore, we'd like you to...
[02:07:48.780 --> 02:07:50.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: we'd like you to collaborate on a...
[02:07:50.520 --> 02:07:53.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: on a history of Apple computer, which kind of came out of the blue.
[02:07:54.700 --> 02:07:56.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they'd been enjoying my letters, I guess.
[02:07:58.360 --> 02:07:59.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I...
[02:07:59.240 --> 02:08:04.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: when I got out of the cattle business and started casting around for things to do next, just...
[02:08:04.940 --> 02:08:09.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: just about the wildest proposition I'd heard was writing the history of Apple computers.
[02:08:09.300 --> 02:08:10.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I went out and...
[02:08:10.860 --> 02:08:12.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: and took a look at that.
[02:08:13.560 --> 02:08:14.080]  And...
[02:08:14.750 --> 02:08:18.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: that project has metamorphosed into...
[02:08:19.440 --> 02:08:20.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: an interest in...
[02:08:20.720 --> 02:08:21.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: in this area.
[02:08:21.820 --> 02:08:22.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I...
[02:08:22.380 --> 02:08:24.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: when I got out there, I realized that Apple was a...
[02:08:25.750 --> 02:08:27.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: for all of its...
[02:08:28.120 --> 02:08:32.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: tie-dye trappings was really just another corporation, and I wasn't sure that I wanted to...
[02:08:32.620 --> 02:08:35.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: to write any corporation's personal account of itself.
[02:08:38.120 --> 02:08:39.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I was...
[02:08:39.320 --> 02:08:41.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I became interested in the culture that...
[02:08:41.440 --> 02:08:43.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: that goes along with this.
[02:08:43.180 --> 02:08:43.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there...
[02:08:43.740 --> 02:08:44.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: this...
[02:08:45.580 --> 02:08:46.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: this...
[02:08:46.180 --> 02:08:46.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: this whole field...
[02:08:46.800 --> 02:08:47.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the...
[02:08:48.950 --> 02:08:50.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: the personal...
[02:08:50.640 --> 02:08:52.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: involvement with information technology that...
[02:08:52.740 --> 02:09:00.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: that computers have extended to people is really the most interesting thing that's going on in this culture at the moment, as far as I'm concerned.
[02:09:01.440 --> 02:09:02.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh...
[02:09:02.040 --> 02:09:04.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: especially if you care about freedom.
[02:09:05.960 --> 02:09:06.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: and...
[02:09:06.420 --> 02:09:10.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: the ability of people to think for themselves and determine their own lives.
[02:09:11.180 --> 02:09:12.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: So how do you...
[02:09:12.080 --> 02:09:14.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: how do you see all this is relating to...
[02:09:14.100 --> 02:09:17.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: to what we've been discussing with the raids by the Secret Service in... in recent months?
[02:09:18.280 --> 02:09:20.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's perfectly predictable, really.
[02:09:21.800 --> 02:09:22.260]  Uh...
[02:09:22.260 --> 02:09:26.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, there's really only one contest that's...
[02:09:26.260 --> 02:09:30.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: that's gone on throughout history, and that's the contest between the people who...
[02:09:30.560 --> 02:09:31.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: who fear...
[02:09:32.520 --> 02:09:33.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: uncertainty and...
[02:09:33.560 --> 02:09:34.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: and...
[02:09:34.620 --> 02:09:36.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: want to control...
[02:09:36.260 --> 02:09:37.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: human behavior and...
[02:09:37.340 --> 02:09:39.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: and everything else that they can possibly control.
[02:09:39.600 --> 02:09:40.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And those people who...
[02:09:40.500 --> 02:09:43.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: who find opportunity in uncertainty and...
[02:09:43.560 --> 02:09:45.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: and want every opportunity for themselves.
[02:09:46.780 --> 02:09:47.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh...
[02:09:47.300 --> 02:09:47.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: you know, it's...
[02:09:47.940 --> 02:09:50.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: it's the control freaks versus the libertarians, and it...
[02:09:50.360 --> 02:09:52.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: and it was true in Athens, and it's true today.
[02:09:52.260 --> 02:09:52.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: So...
[02:09:53.400 --> 02:09:55.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: anytime you've got people who are...
[02:09:57.360 --> 02:09:58.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: poking around...
[02:09:58.320 --> 02:09:59.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: in the...
[02:09:59.100 --> 02:10:00.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: in the core of...
[02:10:00.380 --> 02:10:01.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: what has come to be...
[02:10:01.760 --> 02:10:03.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: the central resource of a society...
[02:10:03.980 --> 02:10:06.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: in this case, that's information...
[02:10:06.260 --> 02:10:06.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh...
[02:10:06.700 --> 02:10:08.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: you're gonna get other people who want to control their behavior.
[02:10:10.520 --> 02:10:11.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh...
[02:10:11.000 --> 02:10:11.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm...
[02:10:11.500 --> 02:10:13.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not surprised by this at all.
[02:10:13.160 --> 02:10:13.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm...
[02:10:13.420 --> 02:10:16.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess the only thing that surprises me is that they're so lame.
[02:10:16.900 --> 02:10:17.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: How... how so?
[02:10:18.880 --> 02:10:19.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well...
[02:10:19.360 --> 02:10:20.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: first of all...
[02:10:20.640 --> 02:10:21.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: what they're doing is...
[02:10:21.920 --> 02:10:25.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: is directly and blatantly unconstitutional, and...
[02:10:25.080 --> 02:10:25.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: and...
[02:10:25.540 --> 02:10:27.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: in the fullness of time, they're gonna get nailed for it.
[02:10:29.580 --> 02:10:30.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh...
[02:10:30.100 --> 02:10:32.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: also, my experience with...
[02:10:33.280 --> 02:10:36.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: with these investigators, in a related matter...
[02:10:36.520 --> 02:10:40.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was visited by the FBI not too long ago...
[02:10:41.180 --> 02:10:41.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh...
[02:10:41.440 --> 02:10:44.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: indicates to me that they really don't know anything that they're talking about.
[02:10:44.900 --> 02:10:45.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's...
[02:10:45.440 --> 02:10:45.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: they...
[02:10:45.940 --> 02:10:48.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: the FBI man that came to visit me was...
[02:10:49.120 --> 02:10:49.560]  uh...
[02:10:49.560 --> 02:10:51.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: he had a wealth of misinformation.
[02:10:51.380 --> 02:10:52.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some of it just...
[02:10:52.060 --> 02:10:52.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: purely fantastic.
[02:10:53.760 --> 02:10:55.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this was after an 11-month investigation.
[02:10:57.680 --> 02:10:58.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: I should point out...
[02:10:58.820 --> 02:10:59.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: this is...
[02:10:59.100 --> 02:11:00.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: this is something else.
[02:11:00.160 --> 02:11:01.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is another thing that...
[02:11:01.480 --> 02:11:01.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:02.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: ...that is going on...
[02:11:02.860 --> 02:11:03.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: having to do with...
[02:11:03.580 --> 02:11:04.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Another hacker investigation.
[02:11:04.880 --> 02:11:05.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Another...
[02:11:05.300 --> 02:11:06.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: another kind of hacker investigation.
[02:11:06.600 --> 02:11:07.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there must be a...
[02:11:07.360 --> 02:11:08.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: a lot of hacker investigations.
[02:11:08.840 --> 02:11:12.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: This operation Sun Devil, which just came down last week...
[02:11:13.320 --> 02:11:16.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: supposedly had 150 Secret Service agents working on it.
[02:11:17.180 --> 02:11:18.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do you think something like that costs?
[02:11:20.220 --> 02:11:21.160]  156, did you say?
[02:11:21.420 --> 02:11:21.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: 150.
[02:11:22.260 --> 02:11:23.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's according to their press release.
[02:11:23.620 --> 02:11:25.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: 150 Secret Service agents were involved in this.
[02:11:27.040 --> 02:11:29.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't even know there were 150 Secret Service agents.
[02:11:29.700 --> 02:11:32.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: When I grew up, the Secret Service was just to protect the president.
[02:11:32.680 --> 02:11:34.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, by my count, that...
[02:11:34.800 --> 02:11:36.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: that gives you something like...
[02:11:36.680 --> 02:11:38.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: five Secret Service agents for every...
[02:11:39.300 --> 02:11:40.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: for every...
[02:11:40.260 --> 02:11:42.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: real master cracker in the country.
[02:11:43.460 --> 02:11:44.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I...
[02:11:44.200 --> 02:11:45.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess that's...
[02:11:45.180 --> 02:11:46.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: that's enough to make them feel secure.
[02:11:47.240 --> 02:11:47.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[02:11:49.020 --> 02:11:50.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let me...
[02:11:50.140 --> 02:11:51.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: let me...
[02:11:51.460 --> 02:11:51.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: read something here.
[02:11:51.920 --> 02:11:52.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Those are good odds.
[02:11:52.900 --> 02:11:53.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me read...
[02:11:53.340 --> 02:11:56.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's no wonder that they're getting so many people, is it?
[02:11:56.460 --> 02:11:57.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's true.
[02:11:57.220 --> 02:11:59.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me just read something here, as far as...
[02:11:59.820 --> 02:12:02.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: the most recent...
[02:12:03.180 --> 02:12:04.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: in the hacker raids, the...
[02:12:04.960 --> 02:12:07.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Operation Sun Devil, which happened last week.
[02:12:07.940 --> 02:12:08.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh...
[02:12:08.420 --> 02:12:10.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: and we'll just add this on to the...
[02:12:10.040 --> 02:12:13.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: to the 9-1-1 raids of a couple of months ago, and then we'll...
[02:12:13.280 --> 02:12:15.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: we'll try to figure the whole mess out, and what's...
[02:12:15.700 --> 02:12:16.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: what's really going on.
[02:12:17.480 --> 02:12:18.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh...
[02:12:18.280 --> 02:12:19.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: also, of course, the...
[02:12:19.260 --> 02:12:20.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: the frack newsletter shutdown.
[02:12:22.060 --> 02:12:22.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh...
[02:12:22.540 --> 02:12:24.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: this is, uh...
[02:12:24.760 --> 02:12:27.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: what Assistant Director of the Secret Service, Gary M.
[02:12:28.160 --> 02:12:28.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jenkins, said.
[02:12:29.700 --> 02:12:30.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: on...
[02:12:30.360 --> 02:12:31.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I believe it was...
[02:12:31.880 --> 02:12:33.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: May 9th...
[02:12:33.640 --> 02:12:34.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: of this year.
[02:12:34.720 --> 02:12:36.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this was in Phoenix, Arizona.
[02:12:36.640 --> 02:12:51.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Today, the Secret Service is sending a clear message to those computer hackers who have decided to violate the laws of this nation in the mistaken belief that they can successfully avoid detection by hiding behind the relative anonymity of their computer terminals.
[02:12:51.820 --> 02:12:57.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: In 1984, Congress enacted the Comprehensive Crime Control Act.
[02:12:57.360 --> 02:12:58.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the real 1984, not the book.
[02:12:59.320 --> 02:12:59.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh...
[02:12:59.880 --> 02:13:04.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: which prohibits, among other things, credit card fraud and computer fraud.
[02:13:04.660 --> 02:13:11.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Since 1984, the Secret Service has been aggressively enforcing these laws and has made over 9,000 arrests nationwide.
[02:13:12.120 --> 02:13:13.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, all fine and dandy.
[02:13:13.660 --> 02:13:27.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: But recently, we have witnessed an alarming number of young people who, for a variety of sociological and psychological reasons, have become attached to their computers and are exploiting their potential in a criminal manner.
[02:13:27.360 --> 02:13:45.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Often, a progression of criminal activity occurs which involves telecommunications fraud, that is, free, long-distance phone calls, unauthorized access to other computers, whether for profit, fascination, ego, or the intellectual challenge, credit card fraud,
[02:13:45.460 --> 02:13:47.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: cash advances, and unauthorized purchases of goods.
[02:13:48.320 --> 02:13:52.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then these people move on to other destructive activities like computer viruses.
[02:13:53.740 --> 02:14:00.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some computer abusers from close associations form close associations with other people having similar interests.
[02:14:00.920 --> 02:14:06.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Underground groups have been formed for the purpose of exchanging information relevant to their criminal activities.
[02:14:07.180 --> 02:14:14.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: These groups often communicate with each other through message systems between computers called bulletin boards.
[02:14:14.780 --> 02:14:23.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Operation Sun Devil was an investigation of potential computer fraud conducted over a two-year period with the use of sophisticated investigative techniques.
[02:14:24.220 --> 02:14:37.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: This investigation exemplifies the commitment and extensive cooperation between federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies and private and governmental industries which have been targeted by computer criminals.
[02:14:37.480 --> 02:14:51.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: While state and local law enforcement agencies successfully investigate and prosecute technological crimes in specific geographical locations, federal intervention is clearly called for when the nature...
[02:14:56.940 --> 02:15:00.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know, but I mean, I'm sorry that I'm helping pay for it.
[02:15:00.480 --> 02:15:01.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We all are.
[02:15:02.960 --> 02:15:10.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, something that struck me there, they differentiated here between two kinds of people.
[02:15:10.240 --> 02:15:17.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: They say computer hackers suspects are no longer misguided teenagers mischievously playing games with their computers in their bedrooms.
[02:15:17.620 --> 02:15:22.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some are now high-tech computer operators using computers to engage in unlawful conduct.
[02:15:22.980 --> 02:15:34.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: are they saying then that if they're not high-tech computer operators using computers to engage in unlawful conduct, if they're not up to something really nefarious, then they're harmless?
[02:15:34.460 --> 02:15:35.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Harmless people playing in their bedrooms?
[02:15:36.060 --> 02:15:38.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because that's the point we've been trying to make all this time.
[02:15:39.200 --> 02:15:41.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: It sounds almost like they've made that point for us.
[02:15:41.660 --> 02:15:46.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of course, people that commit crimes, that steal things, they're criminals.
[02:15:46.220 --> 02:15:49.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's no computer hacker around that I know of that argues that point.
[02:15:49.340 --> 02:15:56.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: But somebody that is simply exploring and looking into other systems as far as I'm concerned...
[02:15:56.080 --> 02:16:08.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you look at the semantics of that statement, somehow it's more unlawful to be a mature, sophisticated, technically expert adult than it is to be a playful teenager.
[02:16:09.220 --> 02:16:09.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: What?
[02:16:10.260 --> 02:16:14.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: The point of the statement has nothing to do with the actual thrust of the activities.
[02:16:14.800 --> 02:16:18.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: It has to do with the style of the person that's conducting them.
[02:16:19.120 --> 02:16:19.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[02:16:19.740 --> 02:16:24.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: In other words, it's okay to bust sophisticated users of computers.
[02:16:24.620 --> 02:16:27.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not okay to bust playful kids in bedrooms.
[02:16:28.940 --> 02:16:37.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, in other words, Mr. and Mrs. America, you don't need to worry about your son or daughter unless he's, you know, out of the house and technically sophisticated.
[02:16:38.420 --> 02:16:45.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, in other words, the Secret Service doesn't go around raiding the homes of kids who are in a sleep playing games on their computers.
[02:16:45.860 --> 02:16:48.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: They raid the homes of kids that are master criminals.
[02:16:48.760 --> 02:16:49.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Apparently.
[02:16:49.620 --> 02:16:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Though, you know, in my experience with this sweep, they've been raiding the homes of kids that are playing with their computers in their bedrooms.
[02:16:59.320 --> 02:17:07.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, most of the folks that I've talked to in the Legion of Doom are young, exploratory, basically harmless folks.
[02:17:07.640 --> 02:17:09.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there doesn't seem to be much crime in them.
[02:17:10.000 --> 02:17:11.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, if there...
[02:17:11.420 --> 02:17:33.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: for me, you know, at this point, the principal irony of all this is that these people are being accused of stealing and disrupting information when, in fact, the only information that's been stolen is the information that's been unlawfully confiscated from the members of the Legion of Doom by the Secret Service without due process,
[02:17:33.860 --> 02:17:35.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: without formal charges.
[02:17:37.820 --> 02:17:49.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Megabytes and megabytes of data were stolen by the Secret Service as far back as the 1st of March and not returned and there's been no opportunity for these people to retrieve their property.
[02:17:51.480 --> 02:17:59.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, we've also seen a computer newsletter get taken out of existence by these raids.
[02:18:00.400 --> 02:18:05.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've seen the complete distortion of the whole 9-1-1 case.
[02:18:06.280 --> 02:18:13.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It is, by the way, the most boring document I've ever read and I've spent time dealing with the United States Forest Service, which is pretty good at it.
[02:18:13.280 --> 02:18:16.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you wouldn't pay $80,000 for that six-page document, would you?
[02:18:18.000 --> 02:18:18.400]  No.
[02:18:18.760 --> 02:18:24.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I might pay $79,448 or whatever it is.
[02:18:24.060 --> 02:18:26.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's not quite worth $80,000, but...
[02:18:27.460 --> 02:18:27.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's...
[02:18:27.860 --> 02:18:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wouldn't, but I mean, see, that's...
[02:18:30.480 --> 02:18:32.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: that's another thing that's kind of at the heart of the matter.
[02:18:32.560 --> 02:18:40.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: How do you put a value on a six-page text file that can be reproduced infinitely many times?
[02:18:41.100 --> 02:18:44.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, what is the actual value of this?
[02:18:44.240 --> 02:18:47.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And to put a value down to the...
[02:18:47.960 --> 02:18:57.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: down to the penny on it really underscores the confusion of authority in the face of an entirely new ballgame.
[02:18:57.720 --> 02:19:05.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, this isn't a car or a stereo or a horse, but they're trying to put some kind of monetary value on it as though it were.
[02:19:06.020 --> 02:19:09.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's also, if you obtain a copy of it, you're obtaining just that.
[02:19:09.700 --> 02:19:11.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're not obtaining an actual...
[02:19:11.660 --> 02:19:13.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're not stealing it from somebody.
[02:19:13.300 --> 02:19:14.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're simply looking at it.
[02:19:14.480 --> 02:19:16.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I've got a copy in my hands right now.
[02:19:17.040 --> 02:19:21.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I don't know if you should say that in front of millions of people here because...
[02:19:21.840 --> 02:19:24.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: They can come and get it from me if they want, but I've got a copy of it.
[02:19:25.200 --> 02:19:26.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's...
[02:19:26.540 --> 02:19:28.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure the phone company would be very upset.
[02:19:28.500 --> 02:19:35.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not in any way limiting the ability of Southern Bell to use this document by my having it.
[02:19:35.780 --> 02:19:46.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I don't think it was coincidence that when this story first broke, all the newspapers said that these kids were interfering with the 911 system.
[02:19:46.160 --> 02:19:54.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: They had the software and they were able to manipulate it when in actuality all they had was a six-page text file explaining some of the more mundane processes at work.
[02:19:55.580 --> 02:19:57.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think that was a coincidence.
[02:19:57.000 --> 02:20:03.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think that was a pretty well-designed way to make it seem as if they were up to something a lot worse than what actually was.
[02:20:03.400 --> 02:20:05.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they're in a good position to do that.
[02:20:05.860 --> 02:20:12.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, control freaks always like to use scare tactics in order to increase their control.
[02:20:13.140 --> 02:20:35.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you don't know anything about computers and you do know that you want the 911 system to work, I can't think of anything better than to be telling people through the media that there are these completely nihilistic, lawless people who have stolen the software that controls your lifeline under certain emergency circumstances.
[02:20:36.320 --> 02:20:53.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what this document actually talks about is billing, accountability, marketing, what the phone company is supposed to provide the customer in terms of services.
[02:20:53.740 --> 02:21:04.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, this is dense bureaucraties which provides absolutely no information that anybody could use to do anything to the 911 system.
[02:21:04.500 --> 02:21:07.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, what this is is a trophy.
[02:21:08.660 --> 02:21:18.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Somebody in the course of getting this and disseminating it was basically bragging about his ability to get into a certain computer and that's all it is.
[02:21:18.840 --> 02:21:19.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: I like to...
[02:21:20.100 --> 02:21:21.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's the couldn't skin on the wall.
[02:21:22.040 --> 02:21:23.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's exactly it.
[02:21:23.360 --> 02:21:27.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to read something from the current copy of 2600.
[02:21:27.310 --> 02:21:37.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We did kind of a review of the 911 document and it's documentation on the emergency 911 system published in March of 1988.
[02:21:38.300 --> 02:21:42.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: It retails for $79,449 and it's six pages long.
[02:21:43.680 --> 02:21:51.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, this is basically what what was found on that document because it is widely disseminated.
[02:21:51.780 --> 02:21:56.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: It otherwise would have been a quickly forgotten text published in a hacker newsletter.
[02:21:56.260 --> 02:22:02.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, due to all the commotion the Bell South E911 document is now very much in the public eye.
[02:22:03.080 --> 02:22:09.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Copies are extremely easy to come by despite Bell South's assertion that the whole thing is worth $79,449.
[02:22:10.460 --> 02:22:16.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Alright, we're going to report on its contents but don't get excited there really isn't all that much here.
[02:22:16.980 --> 02:22:26.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Certain acronyms are introduced among them Public Safety Answering Point, PSAP, also known as Emergency Service Bureau, ESB.
[02:22:27.220 --> 02:22:30.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is what you get in telco lingo when you dial 911.
[02:22:31.240 --> 02:22:35.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: The importance of close coordination between these agencies is stressed.
[02:22:35.360 --> 02:22:39.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Selective routing allows the 911 call to be routed to the proper PSAP.
[02:22:40.260 --> 02:22:45.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: The 1AESS is used as a tandem office for this routing.
[02:22:46.120 --> 02:23:00.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Certain services made available with E911 include forced disconnect, alternative routing, selective routing, selective transfer, default routing, night service, automatic number identification, and automatic location identification.
[02:23:01.260 --> 02:23:11.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: We learn of the existence of the E911 implementation team, the brave men and women from network marketing who help with configuration in the difficult cutover period.
[02:23:11.820 --> 02:23:15.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: This team is in charge of forming an ongoing maintenance subcommittee.
[02:23:16.040 --> 02:23:17.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: We wouldn't want that to get out now, would we?
[02:23:18.560 --> 02:23:31.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: We learn that the Switching Control Center, known as the SCC, quote, is responsible for E911 slash 1AESS translations in tandem central offices, unquote.
[02:23:31.960 --> 02:23:35.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, I don't know about you, but I'm not exactly shocked by that revelation.
[02:23:36.340 --> 02:23:40.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we also find out what is considered a Priority 1 trouble report.
[02:23:40.680 --> 02:23:44.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Any link down to the PSAP fits this definition.
[02:23:44.300 --> 02:23:49.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: We also learn that when ANI fails, the screens will display all zeros.
[02:23:50.320 --> 02:23:53.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we could go on, but we really don't want to bore you.
[02:23:54.340 --> 02:23:58.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: None of this information would allow a hacker to gain access to such a system.
[02:23:58.600 --> 02:24:03.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: All it affords is a chance to understand the administrative functions a little better.
[02:24:03.820 --> 02:24:08.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'd like to assume that any outside interference to a 911 system is impossible.
[02:24:08.980 --> 02:24:10.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Does Bell South know otherwise?
[02:24:11.520 --> 02:24:15.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: In light of their touchiness on the matter, we have to wonder.
[02:24:17.980 --> 02:24:19.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, I hear a clock going off somewhere.
[02:24:19.940 --> 02:24:22.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess it's, uh, striking 12 o'clock where you are.
[02:24:22.720 --> 02:24:24.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Striking, striking midnight in Wyoming.
[02:24:24.700 --> 02:24:28.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's, uh, that's the scoop on the 911 documentation.
[02:24:29.080 --> 02:24:32.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I, I think that about sums it up.
[02:24:32.700 --> 02:24:41.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: For that, for that particular document, we have several people facing over 30 years in jail for possessing it.
[02:24:41.680 --> 02:24:46.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think that's sick in this day and age to, uh, to frighten kids like that.
[02:24:46.120 --> 02:24:46.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[02:24:47.120 --> 02:24:55.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, but you know, you got a situation where the enforcers don't begin to understand the threats that they're trying to guard society against.
[02:24:56.020 --> 02:25:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the FBI agency came to visit me, uh, had only the dimmest understanding of how a computer worked, what a computer could do.
[02:25:04.540 --> 02:25:08.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I showed him, uh, how to, how to download a file.
[02:25:09.140 --> 02:25:11.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he was, he was completely blown away.
[02:25:14.080 --> 02:25:20.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so, naturally there's going to be a high level of superstition and misunderstanding on the part of these people.
[02:25:20.800 --> 02:25:33.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, if somebody, if somebody higher up says, uh, go get them, they're doing something wrong and the people that are, that are actually supposed to enforce the laws are, are as technically unsophisticated as they are, you're, you're bound to get all kinds of,
[02:25:33.360 --> 02:25:34.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, mix-ups.
[02:25:34.940 --> 02:25:39.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's kind of, uh, uh, kind of like government regulating art.
[02:25:39.720 --> 02:25:45.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, uh, I would say, art and computers are two things the government knows nothing about.
[02:25:46.020 --> 02:25:46.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[02:25:46.500 --> 02:25:51.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And two things that I feel very scared, very scared seeing them in control of.
[02:25:52.380 --> 02:25:52.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[02:25:52.920 --> 02:26:01.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, except for the fact that I think that they're so technically incompetent that we're going to be able to run circles around them indefinitely.
[02:26:01.880 --> 02:26:10.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, in the, in the future, uh, swiftness and maneuverability is going to be everything.
[02:26:10.460 --> 02:26:23.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and, uh, any agency that, that requires 150 agents for two years, uh, in order to confiscate some teenagers' equipment, uh, is not a very swift-moving or even a very dangerous outfit.
[02:26:24.320 --> 02:26:36.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I, I keep thinking of, uh, a line that somebody once used in reference to, uh, uh, the administration of Frederick of the Great, which was that it was, uh, despotism tempered by incompetence.
[02:26:36.800 --> 02:26:38.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think we have some of the same protections.
[02:26:40.000 --> 02:26:44.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, unfortunately, uh, that incompetence can work both ways.
[02:26:45.080 --> 02:26:55.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, even, even as it, uh, is unable to find out who the real criminals are, it's so incompetent that it identifies all kinds of, uh, false criminals.
[02:26:56.620 --> 02:27:01.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's, uh, let's talk about the, uh, the frack newsletter being shut down.
[02:27:01.160 --> 02:27:03.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, what are, what are your perceptions on that?
[02:27:03.920 --> 02:27:10.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it seems as clear a violation of the First Amendment as practically anything I've ever run across.
[02:27:11.140 --> 02:27:18.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the only difference between frack and 2600 is that they use electronic media and they don't use print.
[02:27:19.460 --> 02:27:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, there's a, there is a, a precedent for this kind of institutionalized control over a medium, uh, in violation of the First Amendment that has stuck.
[02:27:32.720 --> 02:27:35.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I, and I give you the example of radio and broadcasting in general.
[02:27:36.740 --> 02:27:54.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is government censorship and control over broadcasting, which isn't applied to print, and has at this stage been, uh, more or less institutionalized by precedent.
[02:27:55.900 --> 02:28:05.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, and, and really what happened was at the very beginning, the government decided that they were going to, uh, maintain control over this new medium, and they managed to keep it.
[02:28:06.180 --> 02:28:16.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we're right at the same pivotal point with the dissemination of electronic information, which is how, obviously, most information is now going to be disseminated.
[02:28:17.720 --> 02:28:23.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the government is trying to establish the same kind of early on control over the medium.
[02:28:23.080 --> 02:28:32.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I think the difference here is that this kind of control over the medium could, uh, very easily grow to encompass the printed media as well.
[02:28:34.280 --> 02:28:47.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, even if it doesn't, it's, it's kind of irrelevant because, uh, print, you know, hard copy, is increasingly just the end product of electronic transmission.
[02:28:48.860 --> 02:28:55.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's, you know, you don't, you don't have people out there sitting in front of types or under what typewriters.
[02:28:56.140 --> 02:29:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, information, uh, is taking the form of, of, of, uh, ones and zeros and wires before it ever reaches paper.
[02:29:04.520 --> 02:29:15.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, you can, you can decide that you're going to establish control at any point and, and have a devastating effect on printed matter in the long run.
[02:29:15.860 --> 02:29:20.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: and, uh, I mean, here, this, this, this 9-1-1 document is a case in point.
[02:29:21.140 --> 02:29:33.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I suppose that you would have some constitutional protections for, and, and, and they would be exercised for printing this document in 2600.
[02:29:34.000 --> 02:29:41.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, there's no difference between this document in 2600 and this document in, in electronic form, except for execution.
[02:29:45.620 --> 02:29:53.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can tell you, though, that, uh, I would never print, uh, I would never allow this to be printed in anything I was working for because, uh, it's so boring.
[02:29:53.860 --> 02:29:54.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: So useless.
[02:29:54.580 --> 02:29:54.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's horrible.
[02:29:55.200 --> 02:29:56.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: It really is.
[02:29:56.780 --> 02:29:56.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh.
[02:29:57.240 --> 02:30:02.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, this, this really is one of the least dangerous, the only dangerous thing about this is that it might put you to sleep.
[02:30:03.180 --> 02:30:03.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: That, that's true.
[02:30:04.100 --> 02:30:06.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you, if you're driving it, don't read this while you're driving it.
[02:30:06.400 --> 02:30:07.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah.
[02:30:07.820 --> 02:30:09.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Don't read anything while you're driving, for that matter.
[02:30:09.360 --> 02:30:13.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, in fact, I might have put some people to sleep when I was reading parts of it before because, uh, it's...
[02:30:13.960 --> 02:30:16.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: You could go into a deep coma reading this thing aloud.
[02:30:16.700 --> 02:30:17.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: You sure could.
[02:30:17.320 --> 02:30:19.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: One wonders what happened to the person that wrote it.
[02:30:19.640 --> 02:30:20.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: But enough of that.
[02:30:21.740 --> 02:30:22.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, what's going to happen?
[02:30:23.100 --> 02:30:24.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: What, what are the next steps?
[02:30:24.300 --> 02:30:25.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: What, what should people be doing?
[02:30:26.980 --> 02:30:38.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, uh, you know, I, I, I figure that whenever you've got an agency of the government that's out of control, uh, the best thing you can do is invoke another, another part of the government against it.
[02:30:39.000 --> 02:30:41.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and in this case, fortunately, you've got the judiciary.
[02:30:43.360 --> 02:30:47.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the, the executive branch is running amok as usual.
[02:30:49.060 --> 02:30:57.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I still have some limited faith in the ability of the courts, especially on the higher end, to enforce the constitution.
[02:30:57.260 --> 02:31:10.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, what I've been spending my time doing for the last couple of days is, uh, lining up some, uh, serious major nasty lawyers, uh, to get involved on behalf of, of some of these kids.
[02:31:11.280 --> 02:31:14.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's been the response from the lawyers that you've talked to?
[02:31:14.040 --> 02:31:18.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, when I finally got to the right lawyers, it was very positive.
[02:31:19.280 --> 02:31:36.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and one of the, I can't name these folks now, but, uh, uh, one of the most prestigious, uh, litigating law firms in New York just agreed to, uh, to help out, uh, the three defendants that are in the New York area.
[02:31:37.120 --> 02:31:41.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I guess you can't call them defendants since they haven't been charged with anything.
[02:31:41.300 --> 02:31:41.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mm-hmm.
[02:31:41.960 --> 02:31:54.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, these kids, uh, had their, had their equipment taken from them, uh, almost two months ago, uh, and have been under a constant reign of, uh, of threats.
[02:31:56.080 --> 02:32:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, uh, uh, veiled offers to, uh, mitigate, uh, uh, charges if, uh, if they would cooperate.
[02:32:07.860 --> 02:32:11.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, I, I don't think they should cooperate at all.
[02:32:12.340 --> 02:32:15.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I think, if anything, they should come back fighting hard.
[02:32:15.300 --> 02:32:19.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, fortunately, I think they're, they're about to have the means at hand.
[02:32:20.220 --> 02:32:24.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's, uh, it's, it's good to hear that somebody, uh, cares enough to do that.
[02:32:25.000 --> 02:32:30.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: It, it also must be so frightening to, uh, to not know what's going to happen next.
[02:32:30.240 --> 02:32:41.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're not charged with you, you play with something on your computer, you don't know what kind of crazy laws they're going to make up and misinterpret to, uh, to send you away for, uh, for God knows how long.
[02:32:41.500 --> 02:32:44.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, uh, it must be a really frightening experience to go through.
[02:32:44.600 --> 02:32:53.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, in one of these cases, the Secret Service came in with, you know, eight or ten agents with guns drawn, and the only person home was the, uh, twelve-year-old sister of one of these kids.
[02:32:53.900 --> 02:32:56.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I hope they were able to subdue her before she did anything.
[02:32:56.160 --> 02:33:02.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I guess they, they had her good and subdued by the time he got home, uh, you know, half an hour later.
[02:33:03.000 --> 02:33:16.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, they, they told this kid's mother that, uh, as far as they were concerned, he was responsible for the, uh, for the AT&T systems crash in February, and, and probably cost the, the nation a billion dollars.
[02:33:16.620 --> 02:33:17.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how they put it to her.
[02:33:17.880 --> 02:33:19.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you can imagine what she thought.
[02:33:19.220 --> 02:33:23.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's incredible, because, first of all, AT&T has admitted that it was their fault that that happened.
[02:33:24.640 --> 02:33:30.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you have any sense that perhaps these people really don't understand the first thing about any of this?
[02:33:30.040 --> 02:33:32.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't know what these kids are being charged with themselves?
[02:33:32.500 --> 02:33:33.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm completely certain of it.
[02:33:34.040 --> 02:33:47.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, one great story, uh, one of these kids was telling me that, that he was riding up in the elevator, and they, you know, they take it all manner of stuff, like his, his music tapes, and his, uh, his tape player, and, and his telephone answering machine,
[02:33:47.320 --> 02:33:51.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: and one of these agents is riding up in the elevator next to him with the answering machine in his hand.
[02:33:52.300 --> 02:33:57.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, he looks at the answering machine, he looks at the kid, and he says, alright, what is this?
[02:33:58.880 --> 02:34:00.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the kid says, well, it's an answering machine.
[02:34:01.420 --> 02:34:05.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the agent next to, to the guy that's holding the answering machine says, what'd he say?
[02:34:08.300 --> 02:34:09.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there you are.
[02:34:09.420 --> 02:34:10.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, these people don't even know
[02:34:23.720 --> 02:34:39.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think if that level of technical sophistication were achieved by the people that sign the warrants and the people that execute the warrants, maybe they'd see that these warrants are kind of crazy in the first place.
[02:34:39.220 --> 02:34:42.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: That they're not accomplishing anything.
[02:34:43.000 --> 02:34:49.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think that's a very important step that we've got to reach pretty quickly because a lot of innocent kids are being victimized here.
[02:34:49.860 --> 02:34:57.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: People who really should be the leaders of the next generation, I suppose.
[02:34:57.180 --> 02:35:02.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: The people that are curious, intelligent, and the people who ask a lot of questions.
[02:35:03.220 --> 02:35:05.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right now, that's something that can get you in jail.
[02:35:06.160 --> 02:35:08.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, asking questions could always get you in jail.
[02:35:08.420 --> 02:35:09.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess.
[02:35:09.680 --> 02:35:19.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I mean, asking questions could get you burned at the stake, hung, drawn, and quartered, tortured to death.
[02:35:19.400 --> 02:35:20.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you name it.
[02:35:20.600 --> 02:35:24.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Asking questions has never been popular with control freaks.
[02:35:25.940 --> 02:35:27.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, who do you define as control freaks?
[02:35:27.820 --> 02:35:28.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anybody in charge?
[02:35:28.680 --> 02:35:29.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, no.
[02:35:29.740 --> 02:35:44.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, I have enough faith in some forms of government to assume that there are plenty of people that have the same attitude towards the controllability of life that I do.
[02:35:44.040 --> 02:35:46.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I guess the way I would...
[02:35:47.640 --> 02:35:51.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: A control freak is somebody who is terrified by uncertainty.
[02:35:52.600 --> 02:35:59.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Somebody who believes that ambiguity is something that can be defined out of any situation.
[02:36:01.000 --> 02:36:08.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that the only way to do that is by establishing legal or other forms of control over human behavior.
[02:36:11.040 --> 02:36:12.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's a control freak.
[02:36:12.460 --> 02:36:13.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there are lots of them.
[02:36:13.800 --> 02:36:14.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: They take many different forms.
[02:36:16.140 --> 02:36:19.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'd like to get into this a little further.
[02:36:19.340 --> 02:36:22.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll talk about the Robert Morris sentencing, perhaps, as well.
[02:36:23.180 --> 02:36:28.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: But mostly talk about what lies ahead for these people that have been charged.
[02:36:28.460 --> 02:36:30.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: We were talking to Steve Jackson a little bit earlier.
[02:36:30.140 --> 02:36:45.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: His publishing company in Austin, Texas, was raided by the Secret Service because they did not like a particular game that he was producing that had to do with science fiction, cyberpunks, and that kind of thing.
[02:36:45.800 --> 02:36:48.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: They thought it was a handbook on how to commit computer crime.
[02:36:49.520 --> 02:36:51.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we were talking to him earlier.
[02:36:51.140 --> 02:36:56.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: He said he estimated that he's lost about $125,000 as a result, and he's almost been driven out of business.
[02:36:57.740 --> 02:37:06.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: One thing that I can't figure out, and maybe, John Barlow, you can help us here, he said the American Civil Liberties Union did not take an interest in this.
[02:37:07.080 --> 02:37:08.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why do you suppose that was?
[02:37:09.360 --> 02:37:11.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wish I could figure that out.
[02:37:11.860 --> 02:37:21.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I finally got on the phone yesterday with somebody from the ACLU, who is the only person there that I know of that's knowledgeable about these matters.
[02:37:21.960 --> 02:37:34.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he said that he hadn't even heard of it and asked me to tell Steve Jackson and whoever else had tried to contact the ACLU without success to get a hold of him.
[02:37:34.280 --> 02:37:37.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I think maybe things are turning around there.
[02:37:37.540 --> 02:38:03.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: My guess is that when the initial contacts were made, either by Jackson or some of the other folks that made an effort to get help from the ACLU, they just talked to people who were not knowledgeable about these matters and had the same kind of social dread of computer crackers that most people who read the newspapers have come to acquire.
[02:38:03.980 --> 02:38:10.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think, you know, with the case of the ACLU, there is a degree of ignorance there, too.
[02:38:10.200 --> 02:38:10.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, sure.
[02:38:10.680 --> 02:38:12.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't understand the technology.
[02:38:12.220 --> 02:38:13.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't see the implications.
[02:38:13.740 --> 02:38:16.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: An electronic newsletter in St. Louis gets shut down.
[02:38:17.340 --> 02:38:21.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that not the same thing as a newspaper in New York City getting shut down?
[02:38:21.240 --> 02:38:27.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you have to understand the technology a bit to see the similarities and to understand what's really happening.
[02:38:27.720 --> 02:38:42.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think it's up to people like you and me and our listeners to educate those that can certainly help out in a situation like this, to educate the ACLU, to educate the elected officials and the media and our friends and relatives and everybody else.
[02:38:43.000 --> 02:38:52.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, you know, when people come up to you and say that they really think Robert Morris should have been put away for 10 years, you have to wonder, what do they really think that he did?
[02:38:52.580 --> 02:38:55.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, he made a mistake.
[02:38:55.240 --> 02:38:58.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: He was playing with a computer program and it got out of hand.
[02:38:59.300 --> 02:39:01.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And for that, you're supposed to go to jail?
[02:39:01.760 --> 02:39:05.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what he did was a religious crime, really.
[02:39:05.380 --> 02:39:05.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: How so?
[02:39:06.240 --> 02:39:12.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, in the sense that in this, the religion of this culture is rationality and science.
[02:39:14.360 --> 02:39:16.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of people don't understand science.
[02:39:16.560 --> 02:39:29.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, most of the people who have the most devout form of scientific religion don't understand the most basic tenet of science, which is that everything is up for grabs.
[02:39:30.700 --> 02:39:32.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we don't really know anything.
[02:39:32.840 --> 02:39:36.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: We just have a vast stack of theories.
[02:39:36.840 --> 02:39:44.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: But these people imbue computers with a kind of holy mystic quality.
[02:39:45.920 --> 02:39:50.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what Robert Morris was doing was messing around in the temple.
[02:39:50.900 --> 02:40:02.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was defiling the sacred by some mysterious means that most of the folks that are incensed about this couldn't begin to imagine.
[02:40:02.400 --> 02:40:03.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's interesting.
[02:40:03.760 --> 02:40:09.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: The judge, after sentencing him, I'm told, said, I still want to find out more about how this works.
[02:40:11.360 --> 02:40:11.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Really?
[02:40:12.120 --> 02:40:13.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: He never really quite understood it.
[02:40:13.740 --> 02:40:19.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: But thankfully, the judge was intelligent enough to realize that there was no malice here.
[02:40:19.920 --> 02:40:23.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was no bad intent on Robert Morris' part.
[02:40:23.020 --> 02:40:32.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he went against the guidelines for conviction in a particular crime like that, which pretty much say that you have to send somebody to jail who's convicted of this.
[02:40:33.020 --> 02:40:40.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: He said, obviously, this person was doing something out of curiosity, not out of maliciousness.
[02:40:40.440 --> 02:40:46.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he sentenced him to a fine, probation, that kind of thing, which is probably appropriate.
[02:40:47.080 --> 02:40:47.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Prison.
[02:40:47.560 --> 02:40:48.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do you get out of prison?
[02:40:48.800 --> 02:40:49.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, what's the point?
[02:40:50.740 --> 02:40:52.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And fortunately, he was able to see that.
[02:40:53.460 --> 02:40:58.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm just afraid for all these other people that are now undergoing this.
[02:40:58.720 --> 02:41:02.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Will they get someone as intelligent when their judgment day comes?
[02:41:03.100 --> 02:41:13.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, this is the kind of thing that gives me a little faith in the judiciary as a balance against the executive branch.
[02:41:13.040 --> 02:41:25.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, for one thing, if you sit long enough in a courtroom and listen to enough evidence, no matter how ignorant you are when you start out, you'll know something about it when you're done.
[02:41:28.120 --> 02:41:40.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm fairly well persuaded that the judges of this country are going to know more about computer crime than anybody who's in enforcement in fairly short order.
[02:41:40.620 --> 02:41:41.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's true.
[02:41:41.740 --> 02:41:59.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if they only hear it from the prosecution, and they don't hear it from the defendants themselves, because they're really the only people that understand what it was that they did and what it is that's going on, if they don't hear that, then what they come up with is going to be very imbalanced.
[02:42:00.000 --> 02:42:00.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[02:42:01.020 --> 02:42:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hate to admit my ignorance, but I wasn't aware that there'd been a sentence handed down in the Morris case.
[02:42:05.920 --> 02:42:06.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: When did that happen?
[02:42:06.900 --> 02:42:08.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: That happened about two weeks ago.
[02:42:08.700 --> 02:42:08.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Really?
[02:42:09.160 --> 02:42:10.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, the beginning of May.
[02:42:11.580 --> 02:42:13.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've been traveling around too fast, I guess.
[02:42:14.080 --> 02:42:15.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you know what the sentence was?
[02:42:15.360 --> 02:42:20.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, in fact, fortunately, and this will serve as a terrific lead-in for the pitch I'm going to have to do in a second.
[02:42:22.600 --> 02:42:26.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's an update on that in the current edition of 2600 Magazine.
[02:42:26.180 --> 02:42:28.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me just turn to the right page here.
[02:42:28.460 --> 02:42:32.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have Robert Morris sentenced on May 4th.
[02:42:33.460 --> 02:42:43.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: His runaway worm created havoc on the Internet over the fall of 1988, and he was sentenced to three years probation, a $10,000 fine, and 400 hours of community service.
[02:42:44.140 --> 02:42:49.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, he could have received up to five years in prison along with a $250,000 fine.
[02:42:49.540 --> 02:42:52.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's the update from Robert Morris.
[02:42:53.380 --> 02:42:56.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And considering what that sentence could have been, I think it was fair.
[02:42:58.300 --> 02:43:03.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're going to say that he committed a crime at all, I think that was something that is acceptable.
[02:43:05.180 --> 02:43:17.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, we are in the middle of our fundraising drive here at WBAI, and we want to be able to continue to bring you programs like this where we discuss controversial issues that aren't discussed anywhere else.
[02:43:17.260 --> 02:43:26.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I challenge you to find a program, a newspaper, a magazine that approaches computer hacking from the hacker's point of view.
[02:43:27.000 --> 02:43:29.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: You won't find it anywhere else.
[02:43:29.820 --> 02:43:34.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Unless it's another Pacifica station in another part of the country, probably, but no place else.
[02:43:34.940 --> 02:43:36.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why we need to hear from you now.
[02:43:36.920 --> 02:43:38.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're in the middle of our... actually, we're not in the middle.
[02:43:38.980 --> 02:43:40.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're right at the end of our fundraiser.
[02:43:40.860 --> 02:43:43.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we need to pull in a few more calls.
[02:43:43.400 --> 02:43:47.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: The number is 212-279-3400.
[02:43:47.960 --> 02:44:03.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you've gotten something out of this program, if you've learned something that you didn't know before, or if what you've heard outrages you and makes you think, makes you want to get more involved, make an investment.
[02:44:03.200 --> 02:44:08.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make an investment in all the things that you can hear in the future because it's an ongoing thing.
[02:44:08.760 --> 02:44:16.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not just with computers, not just with technology, but all the different things that WBAI covers in its 24-hour broadcast day.
[02:44:16.780 --> 02:44:21.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: By calling 279-3400, you can become a part of WBAI.
[02:44:21.300 --> 02:44:25.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can become a part of the process of thinking and expressing yourself.
[02:44:26.020 --> 02:44:41.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And for a pledge of $55, you'll get a year of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, the magazine that brings you information like this, brings you the facts as they unfold, and brings them to you in a way nobody else does.
[02:44:42.500 --> 02:44:56.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's important that we see those phones start to light up so that we know there's people out there that are willing to make a donation to the radio station and keep it going so more people can hear this so that these thoughts won't be stifled.
[02:44:56.460 --> 02:45:03.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Think to yourself, if WBAI were not here, how would we ever find out about this?
[02:45:03.760 --> 02:45:10.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you'd have to, you'd have to know where to look, you'd have to know who to speak to, and you'd have to track them down.
[02:45:12.000 --> 02:45:13.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we make it easy for you.
[02:45:13.620 --> 02:45:22.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: All you have to do is turn on your radio at any time of the day or night, and I guarantee you, you'll be hearing things that you can't hear elsewhere.
[02:45:22.780 --> 02:45:24.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: May not always be things you want to hear, you know?
[02:45:25.220 --> 02:45:28.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sometimes you'll turn on the radio and you'll have to run screaming out of the room or something.
[02:45:29.380 --> 02:45:30.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: It happens.
[02:45:30.460 --> 02:45:31.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Happens to everybody.
[02:45:32.160 --> 02:45:34.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Happened to me the other day, but I won't say what show it was.
[02:45:35.360 --> 02:45:40.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because the fact of the matter is, WBAI serves a very important role in the community.
[02:45:41.500 --> 02:45:44.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we need your help to fulfill that role.
[02:45:46.180 --> 02:45:49.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, area code 212, help us out.
[02:45:49.760 --> 02:45:53.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because by helping us out, you'll be benefiting in the long run.
[02:45:53.700 --> 02:46:03.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, in the short run, you'll be benefiting because you'll be getting the WBAI program guide for a year, and also you'll be getting 2600 magazine for the next year.
[02:46:04.160 --> 02:46:10.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that will update you as to all the scary things that are going on with high tech.
[02:46:10.300 --> 02:46:16.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's a lot of scary things, as I'm sure, John, you're well familiar with.
[02:46:16.900 --> 02:46:20.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's many things going on out there that the average person just doesn't know about.
[02:46:21.540 --> 02:46:28.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, Eric, that was such a great pitch that I don't want to have to hang up and dial your other number, but you can sign me up.
[02:46:29.180 --> 02:46:33.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, we'll have to figure out a way to transfer you to the pledge line, but...
[02:46:33.220 --> 02:46:34.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you can just give my address.
[02:46:34.940 --> 02:46:35.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: You've got it.
[02:46:35.720 --> 02:46:45.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, maybe you can hit upon a point I haven't already hit upon, because after you're on for a long time and you keep saying the same thing, I don't know, maybe you lose the conviction in your voice or something.
[02:46:45.160 --> 02:46:47.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: But does it make sense to you?
[02:46:47.400 --> 02:46:49.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Should people reach out and support a station like this?
[02:46:50.040 --> 02:46:50.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
[02:46:50.400 --> 02:46:53.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's kind of...
[02:46:53.680 --> 02:47:10.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't have truly free organs of information that don't owe anything to advertisers and don't owe anything to the government and don't care who they irritate, you know, you're not free anymore.
[02:47:10.380 --> 02:47:11.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's as simple as that.
[02:47:11.860 --> 02:47:16.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, obviously, I've listened to some amazing stuff on Pacifica stations.
[02:47:16.700 --> 02:47:18.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you talk about running, screaming from the room.
[02:47:19.220 --> 02:47:34.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was listening to the Pacifica outlet in Berkeley not too long ago, and they had an interview with not one, but two or three gay Ethiopian female poets.
[02:47:36.040 --> 02:47:40.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was just, you know, it was the kind of thing that only a Pacifica station would do.
[02:47:41.000 --> 02:47:42.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was absurd.
[02:47:42.360 --> 02:47:54.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, on the other hand, I can't imagine any other station that would give any kind of in-depth reporting of computer hacking, as you say, from the computer hacker's point of view.
[02:47:54.560 --> 02:47:55.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's a...
[02:47:56.140 --> 02:47:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right now, that's a critical piece of information.
[02:47:59.840 --> 02:48:00.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: It sure is.
[02:48:00.900 --> 02:48:04.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: First of all, there's a reason why other media outlets won't do that.
[02:48:04.980 --> 02:48:13.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's because sponsors would see it as too controversial, as too threatening to the products that they sell.
[02:48:13.500 --> 02:48:17.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, hearing what computer hackers have to say, that's kind of risky there.
[02:48:17.960 --> 02:48:18.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Absolutely.
[02:48:18.920 --> 02:48:20.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's necessary.
[02:48:20.560 --> 02:48:31.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: In this day and age, what computer hackers are learning and figuring out and revealing is something that's going to be affecting us for decades, centuries to come.
[02:48:33.540 --> 02:48:44.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: We could be seeing things that, if left unchecked, could result in a lot of our civil rights being violated flagrantly in the decades to come.
[02:48:45.100 --> 02:48:51.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have to look upon this now because the world is moving into the electronic age with breathtaking speed.
[02:48:51.500 --> 02:48:54.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we've got to know what is right and what is wrong.
[02:48:55.120 --> 02:49:03.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you just leave it up to somebody else and say, oh, we trust them, you're making a very big mistake, a mistake that's been made many, many times before in the past.
[02:49:03.580 --> 02:49:06.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: But a mistake that we can do something about now.
[02:49:06.680 --> 02:49:12.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not saying that by calling 279-3400 and pledging to WBAI, you're going to be solving the world's problems.
[02:49:13.000 --> 02:49:19.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: But you'll be making things better for yourself because you'll be opening up your eyes.
[02:49:19.040 --> 02:49:29.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll be becoming a part of the process and you'll be helping ensure that voices like the ones you're hearing tonight will continue to come your way.
[02:49:30.020 --> 02:49:33.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: If that means something to you, please make that call.
[02:49:33.580 --> 02:49:35.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: You are the person that can make the difference.
[02:49:35.500 --> 02:49:43.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have people at 2.30 in the morning sitting in a room in Midtown Manhattan waiting to take your call.
[02:49:44.020 --> 02:49:44.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're down there.
[02:49:45.040 --> 02:49:49.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: They've sacrificed their whole evening to be here to take your call.
[02:49:49.240 --> 02:49:51.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: So please make that time worthwhile.
[02:49:51.540 --> 02:49:57.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it'll be worth your while too because you'll be getting a year's worth of 2600 magazine.
[02:49:57.260 --> 02:50:00.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: By the way, you don't have to get 2600 magazine if you don't want to.
[02:50:00.200 --> 02:50:02.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's all kinds of other levels you can pledge at.
[02:50:02.580 --> 02:50:11.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: The important thing is that you call now and pledge whatever it is you can afford to the radio station to help keep us going because we want to be around next year.
[02:50:11.500 --> 02:50:13.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: We want to be around in the year 2000.
[02:50:13.460 --> 02:50:15.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: We want to be around for a good long time.
[02:50:15.700 --> 02:50:22.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we don't want to sell commercials because once we do that you can forget about programs like this.
[02:50:22.340 --> 02:50:25.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the day may come when we have to do that.
[02:50:25.720 --> 02:50:27.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that might sound like a threat but it's not.
[02:50:28.300 --> 02:50:32.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's something that is always threatening us.
[02:50:32.380 --> 02:50:33.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a threat to us.
[02:50:33.900 --> 02:50:36.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we're just telling the reality as it is.
[02:50:37.500 --> 02:50:46.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400 Let's get two phone calls and we can go back to our discussion and take some phone calls because I'd really like to cover the rest of this story.
[02:50:46.600 --> 02:50:48.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's still more to go on this story.
[02:50:48.980 --> 02:50:53.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we've been talking about this since 1145 this evening.
[02:50:53.960 --> 02:50:55.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yesterday evening, actually.
[02:50:55.200 --> 02:50:57.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's so much going on.
[02:50:57.360 --> 02:50:59.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's so much going on since it's just one story.
[02:51:00.220 --> 02:51:04.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Imagine all the stories that we can cover in the weeks, months, years ahead.
[02:51:05.180 --> 02:51:06.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400 Make that call now.
[02:51:07.000 --> 02:51:07.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Area code 212.
[02:51:09.320 --> 02:51:29.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, Eric, one of the things that I was thinking about while I was listening and you talked there is that one of the problems you've got with market-driven media is that there's this sort of channel-scan consciousness that now applies to radio as well as television.
[02:51:32.900 --> 02:51:37.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And information is now being presented in smaller and smaller bits.
[02:51:40.180 --> 02:51:48.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: A good case in point was the interview that you and I did for CBS a month and a half ago.
[02:51:50.120 --> 02:51:58.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here we were talking about the same kinds of issues and we had six minutes to cover this whole range of stuff.
[02:51:58.740 --> 02:51:59.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that was absurd.
[02:51:59.820 --> 02:52:08.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I mean, especially starting out with a guy who was concerned that we might break into his home computer even though it wasn't connected to a telephone line.
[02:52:09.040 --> 02:52:13.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we were dealing with an interviewer that had that level of technical sophistication.
[02:52:13.480 --> 02:52:22.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I find that whenever I'm interviewed by somebody that's talking about computer hackers, they always start off by saying, I don't know anything about computers.
[02:52:23.580 --> 02:52:30.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I keep asking myself, why in hell are you doing this story if you don't know anything about the subject?
[02:52:30.440 --> 02:52:30.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[02:52:30.840 --> 02:52:34.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: What qualifies that?
[02:52:35.110 --> 02:52:41.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yet people look to them as the providers of the information, the people that they trust and believe.
[02:52:41.670 --> 02:52:44.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if they don't know what they're talking about, how can you trust and believe them?
[02:52:44.770 --> 02:52:44.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[02:52:45.110 --> 02:52:45.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's so absurd.
[02:52:45.970 --> 02:52:46.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's funny.
[02:52:46.710 --> 02:52:49.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's not funny because people are getting hurt by this.
[02:52:52.050 --> 02:52:53.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, let's give out that phone one more time.
[02:52:54.090 --> 02:52:58.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: I really want to see some more lines light up because we do need help here, folks.
[02:52:58.650 --> 02:53:01.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: We do need help and you're the people that can help us.
[02:53:01.570 --> 02:53:03.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're the person that can help us.
[02:53:03.070 --> 02:53:04.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: You listening right now.
[02:53:04.250 --> 02:53:07.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see all the call-in lines are lit up great.
[02:53:07.310 --> 02:53:08.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we want to hear what you have to say.
[02:53:09.210 --> 02:53:12.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we also need that real financial support.
[02:53:13.150 --> 02:53:14.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: We take Visa.
[02:53:14.150 --> 02:53:15.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: We take MasterCard.
[02:53:15.790 --> 02:53:17.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right now, we want to take your phone calls.
[02:53:17.730 --> 02:53:20.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[02:53:20.970 --> 02:53:21.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a phone call.
[02:53:22.010 --> 02:53:22.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Great.
[02:53:22.450 --> 02:53:29.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's get one more in there and we can go and take some more phone calls and talk about the other issues that are affecting us.
[02:53:30.310 --> 02:53:31.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because these are...
[02:53:31.130 --> 02:53:32.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can talk about this until 6 in the morning.
[02:53:32.810 --> 02:53:33.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not going to.
[02:53:33.630 --> 02:53:34.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're only on for another hour.
[02:53:34.990 --> 02:53:38.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's so incredible the things that are happening.
[02:53:38.670 --> 02:53:53.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could be so wonderful and marvelous to see technology developing, blossoming, to see people getting control over technology, being able to produce their own music, produce their own magazines.
[02:53:54.330 --> 02:53:58.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: It can be so incredible, so great, so inspiring.
[02:53:58.830 --> 02:54:04.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it can also be detrimental if we don't have the control that we deserve.
[02:54:06.170 --> 02:54:07.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it's...
[02:54:08.690 --> 02:54:09.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Technology is...
[02:54:10.570 --> 02:54:12.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: It can be our salvation.
[02:54:12.250 --> 02:54:13.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: It can be our damnation.
[02:54:14.790 --> 02:54:16.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, that's a soundbite, isn't it?
[02:54:17.790 --> 02:54:18.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that...
[02:54:19.430 --> 02:54:22.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: That sure worked for the CBS interview, Eric.
[02:54:22.390 --> 02:54:23.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: I should have said that.
[02:54:23.370 --> 02:54:24.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't say anything.
[02:54:24.390 --> 02:54:26.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, it doesn't say much, but I should have said it on CBS.
[02:54:27.010 --> 02:54:29.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, they love soundbites when you say...
[02:54:29.030 --> 02:54:29.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah.
[02:54:29.330 --> 02:54:29.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: ...one sentence.
[02:54:30.090 --> 02:54:31.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, they'll use one sentence.
[02:54:31.930 --> 02:54:32.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[02:54:32.370 --> 02:54:37.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of everything you've said, they'll use one sentence, and that they'll get wrong somehow.
[02:54:38.130 --> 02:54:45.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I don't want to come down too hard on media people because I do think they mean well, but they're not guided properly.
[02:54:45.990 --> 02:54:53.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: They have to understand what it is they're talking about and whose responsibility is that if not ours, the people that understand what's going on.
[02:54:53.490 --> 02:54:55.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got to take that control.
[02:54:55.790 --> 02:55:01.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you, our listeners, have got to take that control too because by supporting WBAI, you are making a statement.
[02:55:01.610 --> 02:55:06.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're saying this matters and your contribution makes us stronger.
[02:55:06.410 --> 02:55:10.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: It allows us to speak more frequently and more consistently.
[02:55:11.190 --> 02:55:12.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what matters.
[02:55:12.930 --> 02:55:14.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what matters in this day and age.
[02:55:14.850 --> 02:55:15.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to be heard.
[02:55:16.230 --> 02:55:26.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not necessarily the loudest, shrillest voice, but a voice loud enough to be heard over the deafening roar of sensationalism which is ever-present.
[02:55:26.790 --> 02:55:29.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Boy, you know, as the night progresses, I'm coming up with these weird phrases.
[02:55:29.730 --> 02:55:30.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Please excuse me.
[02:55:31.610 --> 02:55:33.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: The number is 279-3400.
[02:55:33.650 --> 02:55:34.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see we're getting calls.
[02:55:34.650 --> 02:55:40.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's very good to know because I like to know that people are out there and they care.
[02:55:40.390 --> 02:55:41.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: They care enough to support the station.
[02:55:41.830 --> 02:55:46.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, a $55 pledge will get you a year of 2600 magazine.
[02:55:46.050 --> 02:55:48.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guarantee you this magazine will open your eyes.
[02:55:48.990 --> 02:55:49.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: It really will.
[02:55:50.130 --> 02:55:56.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's something that, you know, if we could afford to send it to everybody in the country, we would because people deserve to see this.
[02:55:56.870 --> 02:56:01.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: And right now, 2600 is donating an unlimited number of copies.
[02:56:01.730 --> 02:56:07.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: until we go bankrupt anyway, to WBAI as part of this fundraiser.
[02:56:07.770 --> 02:56:13.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: So however many people call up and pledge $55 to WBAI, all that money goes to WBAI.
[02:56:13.090 --> 02:56:14.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: None of it goes back to 2600.
[02:56:14.610 --> 02:56:22.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'll donate the subscriptions for a good cause, for freedom of speech and for free airwaves and that kind of thing.
[02:56:23.110 --> 02:56:25.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[02:56:25.530 --> 02:56:28.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make that call now because tomorrow may be too late.
[02:56:28.770 --> 02:56:30.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Next week will definitely be too late.
[02:56:30.710 --> 02:56:32.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our fundraiser ends on Saturday.
[02:56:32.870 --> 02:56:38.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in an hour, you won't be able to get 2600 anymore through this radio station.
[02:56:38.530 --> 02:56:42.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: So please give a call now and make that pledge.
[02:56:42.830 --> 02:56:48.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, we take Visa and we take MasterCard so it doesn't have to be a cash outlay for you right away.
[02:56:48.550 --> 02:56:50.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: It can take time.
[02:56:50.510 --> 02:56:55.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: It can take a few months or however long you spread out your Visa or MasterCard bills.
[02:56:56.750 --> 02:56:58.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, the country is founded on credit.
[02:56:58.710 --> 02:57:02.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I suppose the individual people should use some credit themselves too.
[02:57:03.570 --> 02:57:05.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[02:57:06.850 --> 02:57:21.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I want to take a very quick musical break so I can get something to drink and then we're going to take some phone calls and talk some more about what's going on in the computer hacker world and with the Secret Service raids and all that kind of thing.
[02:57:21.770 --> 02:57:24.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're speaking to John Perry Barlow out in Wyoming.
[02:57:24.490 --> 02:57:25.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: What city in Wyoming are you in?
[02:57:26.010 --> 02:57:26.450]  Pinedale.
[02:57:26.710 --> 02:57:27.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pinedale.
[02:57:27.410 --> 02:57:28.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what is that?
[02:57:28.330 --> 02:57:29.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Out in Twin Peaks country somewhere?
[02:57:31.030 --> 02:57:32.490]  Yeah, just like that.
[02:57:32.630 --> 02:57:33.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just like that.
[02:57:33.250 --> 02:57:35.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we'll talk more about that in a little while.
[02:57:36.090 --> 02:57:40.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to come back right after this musical break and we'll be taking your phone calls.
[02:57:40.890 --> 02:57:49.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: The number to call if you want to speak to John Perry Barlow and myself, Emmanuel Goldstein is 279-3407.
[02:57:49.830 --> 02:57:55.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you get a busy signal, just keep trying because eventually you might get through.
[02:57:55.630 --> 02:57:56.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's put it that way.
[02:57:56.450 --> 02:57:57.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a lot of people calling in right now.
[02:57:59.090 --> 02:58:00.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3407 to be on the air.
[02:58:01.850 --> 02:58:17.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: But more importantly, it really is more important at this point that we get financial support as well because that is what allows us to continue to bring you programs like this and to continue to take your calls in the future.
[02:58:18.490 --> 02:58:29.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: So call 279-3400 to make a pledge and if you're trying to reach 3407 and you find it's busy, give a call to 279-3400.
[02:58:29.690 --> 02:58:33.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make a pledge and then try 3407 again.
[02:58:33.170 --> 02:58:37.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, a lot of people say, hey, I called 279-3407.
[02:58:37.730 --> 02:58:38.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was busy.
[02:58:38.710 --> 02:58:41.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I called and I made a pledge and you know what?
[02:58:41.730 --> 02:58:45.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: After I made the pledge, I hung up and I called 279-34007 and it wasn't busy.
[02:58:47.010 --> 02:58:50.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not saying that's going to happen necessarily, but it could.
[02:58:52.010 --> 02:58:53.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Nice things happen to people that...
[02:58:53.690 --> 02:58:55.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: and that sounds like a chain letter so I'm going to stop right here.
[02:58:56.670 --> 02:58:58.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400 please make that call.
[02:58:58.550 --> 02:58:59.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make a pledge.
[02:58:59.170 --> 02:59:12.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212 area code and if you want to get through and speak to John Perry Barlow and myself on this special edition of the 5th Corner 212-279-3407 and by the way, thanks to all those of you who have been calling in.
[02:59:12.250 --> 02:59:13.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: We really do appreciate it.
[02:59:13.670 --> 02:59:14.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: We appreciate it a lot.
[02:59:15.750 --> 02:59:17.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're now going to take a quick musical break.
[02:59:17.850 --> 02:59:18.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be right back.
[03:00:06.200 --> 03:00:06.660]  This is the first sentence.
[03:00:33.020 --> 03:00:37.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is the first sentence.
[03:00:37.500 --> 03:00:38.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: No way.
[03:00:39.240 --> 03:00:39.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: No way.
[03:01:03.850 --> 03:01:07.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Walking down the road, beat the pistol in your waist.
[03:01:08.570 --> 03:01:09.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: John, you're too bad.
[03:01:15.320 --> 03:01:19.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Walking down the road, beat the ratchet in your waist.
[03:01:31.200 --> 03:01:35.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're just grabbing and stabbing and you're looting and you're shooting, but you're too bad.
[03:01:38.510 --> 03:01:41.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: One of these days, been your hero voice.
[03:01:46.560 --> 03:01:51.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm out of my life and you're nervous, but I tell you I can't live in service.
[03:01:51.700 --> 03:01:53.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like a doctor's bonfire.
[03:01:53.780 --> 03:01:56.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Purpose, rudest, compel.
[03:01:57.840 --> 03:01:58.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[03:01:59.220 --> 03:02:05.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: I went to the market to realize my soul's what I need.
[03:02:06.180 --> 03:02:12.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just don't have the good for me.
[03:02:12.060 --> 03:02:13.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: What's the reason I heard?
[03:02:14.340 --> 03:02:14.360]  Yes.
[03:02:16.160 --> 03:02:17.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Rudest, compel.
[03:02:18.760 --> 03:02:19.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: What?
[03:02:19.800 --> 03:02:20.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: First you must go, y'all.
[03:02:21.120 --> 03:02:24.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Find the job in a paper.
[03:02:24.460 --> 03:02:26.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then you need someone for a savior.
[03:02:27.080 --> 03:02:28.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Rudest, compel.
[03:02:30.920 --> 03:02:31.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're proud.
[03:02:32.080 --> 03:02:32.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're proud.
[03:02:32.230 --> 03:02:33.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now you're so rude enough.
[03:02:33.580 --> 03:02:35.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Reckless to be seen looking cool and.
[03:02:36.140 --> 03:02:38.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Speckless to be chicken brew for breakfast.
[03:02:39.580 --> 03:02:41.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Rudest, compel.
[03:02:41.280 --> 03:02:41.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh no.
[03:02:43.500 --> 03:02:49.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: I went to the market to realize my soul's what I need.
[03:02:50.380 --> 03:02:52.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just don't have.
[03:02:54.140 --> 03:02:58.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: First they trust, then they press me till I hurt.
[03:03:00.380 --> 03:03:02.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Rudest, compel.
[03:03:02.180 --> 03:03:02.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now.
[03:03:31.230 --> 03:03:33.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: If I take a look and get the fun of Rudy.
[03:03:35.930 --> 03:03:36.490]  Rudy.
[03:04:25.020 --> 03:04:26.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Rudy, he can't fail.
[03:04:27.280 --> 03:04:29.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: From the clashed London calling.
[03:04:29.260 --> 03:04:30.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Here on WBAI.
[03:04:31.480 --> 03:04:32.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go join Rudy.
[03:04:33.240 --> 03:04:34.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Prove that you can't fail either.
[03:04:34.920 --> 03:04:37.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Support WBAI2793400.
[03:04:38.560 --> 03:04:56.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it should be said at this point, if you want more information, if you want to speak to somebody, there's some phone numbers, you can reach us at 2600 Magazine, for one thing, 516-751-2600, or you can write to 2600 P.O.
[03:04:56.800 --> 03:05:13.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Box 752, Middle Island, New York, 11953, and request more information on all of this, because a lot of interesting things are going on, and a lot of scary things are going on, and we have all kinds of neat things coming your way.
[03:05:13.900 --> 03:05:15.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: John Barlow, are you still there?
[03:05:15.860 --> 03:05:16.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I'm still here.
[03:05:16.800 --> 03:05:19.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we want to... this person wants...
[03:05:19.380 --> 03:05:20.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: A matching fund.
[03:05:20.560 --> 03:05:22.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: A matching fund, okay.
[03:05:22.360 --> 03:05:23.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is great.
[03:05:23.160 --> 03:05:27.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a matching fund from Peter of Scarsdale, I believe?
[03:05:27.300 --> 03:05:27.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[03:05:27.540 --> 03:05:33.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, thank you very much, Peter of Scarsdale, for a matching fund, $150.
[03:05:34.040 --> 03:05:34.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: $150.
[03:05:34.480 --> 03:05:55.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, if we're able to get calls totaling $150, and that's three callers, $55 each, and you'll each get a subscription to 2600 Magazine, we will actually be bringing in double that amount, because that $150 will be matched by this very generous person from Scarsdale,
[03:05:55.580 --> 03:05:55.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: New York.
[03:05:56.160 --> 03:05:56.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you very much.
[03:05:57.640 --> 03:05:59.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pledge 279-3400.
[03:05:59.280 --> 03:06:00.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make that pledge.
[03:06:00.680 --> 03:06:01.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Three phone calls will do it.
[03:06:02.040 --> 03:06:05.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: And once we hit that $150 mark, we're doubling the funds.
[03:06:05.560 --> 03:06:07.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll make $300 for the station.
[03:06:07.420 --> 03:06:09.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'll tell you, that'll make me feel good.
[03:06:09.300 --> 03:06:11.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know about you out there in Wyoming, John, but...
[03:06:11.340 --> 03:06:12.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: I feel great about it.
[03:06:12.420 --> 03:06:18.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just amazing to know that people care enough about this place to make that kind of commitment, to make that kind of pledge.
[03:06:20.120 --> 03:06:21.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Please be a part of this.
[03:06:21.660 --> 03:06:27.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400, because it's something that you'll feel good about for many months to come.
[03:06:28.180 --> 03:06:37.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's something that will make us feel like what we're saying means something, you know, that people are listening, people care, people are responding.
[03:06:38.180 --> 03:06:40.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[03:06:41.420 --> 03:06:50.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, we've got John Barlow on the phone from Wyoming, and we have other people that have been patiently waiting to speak to him.
[03:06:50.260 --> 03:06:56.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I'd like to go to the phones, well, I guess as soon as possible.
[03:06:58.760 --> 03:07:02.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Any thoughts, John, while we're preparing to go to the phones?
[03:07:05.600 --> 03:07:10.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, I sure have a lot of them, but why don't we just, why don't we find out what other people are thinking?
[03:07:10.520 --> 03:07:11.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, good idea.
[03:07:12.180 --> 03:07:12.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[03:07:13.380 --> 03:07:13.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[03:07:14.700 --> 03:07:18.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Your show is very enjoyable tonight, sort of like a breath of fresh air.
[03:07:19.000 --> 03:07:20.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, that's good, that's good.
[03:07:20.860 --> 03:07:21.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Two things.
[03:07:21.960 --> 03:07:38.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: One, your, Mr. Barlow's comments on science, especially on WBAI, it's nice to hear somebody that's not busy trashing it, but actually attempting to define it, too often defined as technology as opposed to what I think it really is.
[03:07:39.080 --> 03:07:41.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, that sent me running to my book shelf.
[03:07:42.220 --> 03:07:46.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the thing that strikes me is that what you're talking about is nothing new.
[03:07:47.420 --> 03:08:03.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I ran over and I pulled off a study by the National Academy of Sciences from 1972 called Data Banks and a Free Society, which is a big, thick book which talks about all the things that you're talking about, only, what, that's a good 18 years ago.
[03:08:05.160 --> 03:08:09.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then that also led me to two other books, and I just thought I'd mention them.
[03:08:09.760 --> 03:08:10.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure you're aware of them.
[03:08:10.800 --> 03:08:14.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: One is Theodore Rozak's book, The Cult of Information.
[03:08:14.980 --> 03:08:15.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[03:08:15.740 --> 03:08:19.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the other one is David Burnham's book, The Rise of the Computer State.
[03:08:19.700 --> 03:08:20.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh yes, that's a good one.
[03:08:20.960 --> 03:08:30.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I haven't read Burnham's new book on the IRS, which I believe to some degree was prompted by the stuff that he'd been doing with computer databases.
[03:08:30.360 --> 03:08:45.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, I've heard a few interviews that he's done on that new book, and it seems like something that's a must-read for any of us that are interested in this kind of thing, because he outlines how the IRS is so powerful, so incredibly powerful.
[03:08:46.100 --> 03:08:50.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're able to determine what a non-profit organization is.
[03:08:50.520 --> 03:08:54.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: They make up the rules as to what a non-profit organization can and cannot do.
[03:08:54.520 --> 03:08:57.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just scary, all the control they have.
[03:08:57.580 --> 03:09:00.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: But yes, David Burnham writes some very good material.
[03:09:00.460 --> 03:09:01.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was The Rise of the Computer State.
[03:09:02.220 --> 03:09:03.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.
[03:09:03.460 --> 03:09:15.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it outlines a lot of things like, including some insidious uses for personal computers, used, I guess, in quotes, improperly.
[03:09:16.200 --> 03:09:28.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: But things where, for example, everything, it goes back to where this issue was raised a lot in the 70s was with the issue of credit ratings.
[03:09:28.920 --> 03:09:44.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, the horror stories of people who lost their homes, lost their mortgages, or couldn't get homes because their brother had a bad credit rating and they got keyed in wrong or something like that, which led to the legislation where you now have at least some,
[03:09:44.980 --> 03:09:47.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: to some degree, you can amend your credit files.
[03:09:48.300 --> 03:09:53.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they don't, the government doesn't go out of its way to let you know what your rights are in those respects.
[03:09:53.300 --> 03:10:00.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, in New York State, you have the right to review your computer files, I believe, with the social service agencies.
[03:10:01.080 --> 03:10:12.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: But one of the things Burnham talks about is that the process involved is, you know, I mean, I hope you've got two weeks off if you want to do it.
[03:10:14.080 --> 03:10:17.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it's incredible, the things that you have to go through.
[03:10:17.640 --> 03:10:19.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: The credit report is a perfect example.
[03:10:20.380 --> 03:10:26.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Years ago, people didn't even know that all this information was being stored on them in computers.
[03:10:26.220 --> 03:10:27.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: And who discovered it?
[03:10:27.540 --> 03:10:29.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who brought that to the public's attention?
[03:10:29.840 --> 03:10:32.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: It certainly wasn't the investigative media.
[03:10:32.060 --> 03:10:35.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was computer hackers breaking in and finding all this information.
[03:10:35.500 --> 03:10:40.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then the media jumped on the computer hackers and said, oh, look what these horrible hackers are doing.
[03:10:40.960 --> 03:10:47.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: But in effect, what they had done was expose this whole system that had files on each and every one of us.
[03:10:47.200 --> 03:10:49.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And now at least we know the files are there.
[03:10:49.700 --> 03:10:51.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: We can't really do anything about it.
[03:10:51.260 --> 03:10:54.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: We can't say, don't store this information about me.
[03:10:54.740 --> 03:10:55.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't have a say in that matter.
[03:10:56.860 --> 03:11:02.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if somebody accesses that data, they're not guilty of invading your privacy.
[03:11:02.820 --> 03:11:05.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're guilty of invading the corporation's privacy.
[03:11:05.640 --> 03:11:07.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're guilty of invading TRW's privacy.
[03:11:07.840 --> 03:11:10.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's something I have a lot of trouble with.
[03:11:10.800 --> 03:11:29.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have to pay $35 to get information about me, especially since coupled with that $35 is the requirement that I submit them a whole bunch more detailed information about me.
[03:11:29.140 --> 03:11:38.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, if you, if you ask TRW for your file, uh, one of the conditions of getting it is that you have to give them more information.
[03:11:39.300 --> 03:11:41.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't want, they don't just want your money.
[03:11:41.280 --> 03:11:41.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: They want your data.
[03:11:42.320 --> 03:11:43.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of data do they ask for?
[03:11:43.920 --> 03:11:45.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, very detailed stuff.
[03:11:45.320 --> 03:11:57.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, uh, uh, personal stuff, uh, demographic stuff, uh, you know, how you earn X amount of, of your income, how you earn Y amount of your income.
[03:11:57.240 --> 03:11:59.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, stuff that I don't think is any of their business.
[03:12:00.400 --> 03:12:06.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, a lot of people would say that none of this stuff is, is anybody's business, but, uh, those people are being cast aside.
[03:12:06.820 --> 03:12:09.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we, we, we don't live in a private world anymore.
[03:12:09.320 --> 03:12:10.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have to make everything public.
[03:12:11.160 --> 03:12:22.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Part of this, part of the scary part of it is, is, and I, I, you know, I've had this thing, I notice all the surveillance cameras that pop up over all over the place and the number of times I have to give out my social security number.
[03:12:22.620 --> 03:12:39.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I, I think back and I, I, what, what happens is, uh, Burnham talks about it is, is that the loss of privacy and security is sort of insidious and that as you lose it, you become less and less of aware of what you've lost, uh, and, and, and more acquiescent,
[03:12:39.860 --> 03:12:53.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess, to losing more, uh, uh, it, it sort of becomes, you know, you think back, uh, if you go back and you look at one of the reasons that the social security administration was originally opposed in the thirties is because people were afraid of a national identity system,
[03:12:53.820 --> 03:12:55.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: which is essentially what it's become.
[03:12:56.060 --> 03:12:56.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of course.
[03:12:56.580 --> 03:12:58.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and now nobody gives it a second thought.
[03:12:58.900 --> 03:13:04.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you apply for a job, you, you go to school, you know, on your school ID, it's a social security number.
[03:13:04.580 --> 03:13:09.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you said your social security number, what you should have said is, is your name because that's, that's really what it is.
[03:13:09.800 --> 03:13:25.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, to, to go along that point a little further, uh, if you give something up, you're not only giving it up for yourself, you're giving it up for your children and your grandchildren, and they won't even know what it was like to have that particular piece of freedom and they won't think anything of it.
[03:13:26.020 --> 03:13:29.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's why it's so important to, uh, to hold onto these things.
[03:13:29.400 --> 03:13:34.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we say, well, I guess, uh, having surveillance cameras in every block, isn't that bad a thing?
[03:13:34.780 --> 03:13:36.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Cause it protects us against all the pickpockets.
[03:13:37.280 --> 03:13:40.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, your kids aren't going to say, is this a good thing?
[03:13:40.080 --> 03:13:40.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or isn't this a good thing?
[03:13:40.800 --> 03:13:42.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because they're going to be so used to it.
[03:13:42.620 --> 03:13:43.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: It'll be a part of their lives.
[03:13:43.940 --> 03:13:46.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: It'll be like us saying traffic lights are no good.
[03:13:46.180 --> 03:13:52.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the past, for example, uh, uh, uh, with your bank records, for example, they used to be your bank records.
[03:13:53.080 --> 03:14:03.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and, uh, now the courts have ruled that, uh, your bank records really aren't your bank records, uh, which gets, I think it's, uh, what's the unreasonable search and seizure that the fourth amendment?
[03:14:03.680 --> 03:14:04.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's right.
[03:14:05.080 --> 03:14:22.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, uh, so what they've done is the courts have, have, uh, uh, jerry-rigged things so that, uh, uh, now the, your bank records ...are actually the bank's records so that when the Fed or the Treasury or whomever or a private corporation decides they want to look at them,
[03:14:23.040 --> 03:14:26.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: the decision of whether they're allowed to be looked at is the bank's and not yours.
[03:14:27.460 --> 03:14:32.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And banks very rarely refuse the federal government, apparently, when they're asked for things like that.
[03:14:32.300 --> 03:14:40.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they've done that with other records, where in the past they used to be your personal property legally, and if you went to court you had some redress.
[03:14:41.400 --> 03:14:50.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: In many cases they've redefined what belongs to you in terms of your personal possessions in order to end around the Constitution.
[03:14:51.880 --> 03:14:58.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, let me put in, let others speak, and just put in one pitch for the station at 279-3400.
[03:14:59.600 --> 03:15:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You guys need all the help you can get, and maybe they should put you back-to-back with the personal computer show.
[03:15:06.120 --> 03:15:09.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: We probably have all kinds of unending ethical questions, you know.
[03:15:09.860 --> 03:15:13.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, we won't discuss station policy over the air, but that's my two cents worth.
[03:15:13.860 --> 03:15:18.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just, you can never put two people into technology in the same room because they'll disagree on so many different things.
[03:15:18.980 --> 03:15:20.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: But again, that's good, you know, in a way.
[03:15:20.780 --> 03:15:21.120]  Good show.
[03:15:21.280 --> 03:15:22.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, thanks for calling.
[03:15:22.200 --> 03:15:22.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good night.
[03:15:22.680 --> 03:15:23.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[03:15:23.200 --> 03:15:29.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I understand we have one caller so far to match that, help match that fund.
[03:15:29.920 --> 03:15:36.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a $150 matching fund, and it would be a shame if we could not raise that amount in the time that we have left.
[03:15:37.020 --> 03:15:43.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: If that one caller is, in fact, making a pledge, I believe that means we have two more to go at the $55 level.
[03:15:43.740 --> 03:15:49.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And for $55 you'll get a full year of 2600 Magazine, The Hacker Quarterly.
[03:15:49.740 --> 03:15:59.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can find out all about these privacy concerns and what computer hackers, what those nefarious little beasts are up to, what's really going on.
[03:15:59.300 --> 03:16:03.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some things that will definitely surprise you, and most importantly, you'll be educated.
[03:16:04.220 --> 03:16:06.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[03:16:06.620 --> 03:16:13.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Show that WBAI means something to you and that education means something to you.
[03:16:13.820 --> 03:16:24.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's really an honor to be able to speak with people on the radio here about things like the First Amendment and the Fourth Amendment and all those important things that we should all know about.
[03:16:24.640 --> 03:16:26.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: But how many of us really do?
[03:16:26.360 --> 03:16:28.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: How many of us value these things anymore?
[03:16:28.580 --> 03:16:29.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And why don't we?
[03:16:30.260 --> 03:16:36.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, why is education such a hard thing to come by these days?
[03:16:36.080 --> 03:16:39.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: It makes you wonder, you know, are we being encouraged to be stupid?
[03:16:40.620 --> 03:16:44.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if we are, what does the future hold?
[03:16:45.140 --> 03:16:47.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's going to happen to all these uneducated people?
[03:16:48.020 --> 03:16:49.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're going to be guarded around like sheep?
[03:16:50.200 --> 03:16:51.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: They'll make great consumers.
[03:16:52.320 --> 03:16:53.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: They sure will.
[03:16:54.180 --> 03:16:58.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Paying for everything left and right and not having a shred of privacy left.
[03:16:59.260 --> 03:17:04.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, while I'm shuddering with that thought, pick up your phone, dial 279-3400, please.
[03:17:05.380 --> 03:17:10.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Show us your support and make a pledge to the radio station and bring us closer to that goal.
[03:17:10.860 --> 03:17:18.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because by making the goal of $150, we will be doubling that goal and getting a matching fund and making $300.
[03:17:19.180 --> 03:17:21.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's how the station is built, folks.
[03:17:21.160 --> 03:17:23.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's how we got to where we are today.
[03:17:23.740 --> 03:17:27.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: By one person doing something, then another person, then another person.
[03:17:28.000 --> 03:17:30.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's sort of how conversations start.
[03:17:31.100 --> 03:17:39.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: We started talking tonight about the hacker raids with the Steve Jackson games and the emergency 911 and the shutdown of the Phrack newsletter.
[03:17:40.260 --> 03:17:42.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And more people are talking about it now.
[03:17:42.880 --> 03:17:43.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: And word is getting out.
[03:17:44.240 --> 03:17:46.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: And people are telling other people.
[03:17:46.700 --> 03:17:51.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Before you know it, a substantial number of people will be educated about this.
[03:17:51.360 --> 03:17:58.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the same thing with calling in and pledging WBAI because every person counts.
[03:17:59.140 --> 03:18:00.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every pledge counts.
[03:18:00.200 --> 03:18:01.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: It all adds up.
[03:18:01.500 --> 03:18:05.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we are over the $200,000 mark.
[03:18:05.940 --> 03:18:09.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've been having this fundraiser now for about two weeks.
[03:18:10.640 --> 03:18:16.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: And for us to get to that point, it sounds like an incredible amount of money.
[03:18:16.120 --> 03:18:17.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it is an incredible amount of money.
[03:18:17.640 --> 03:18:23.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the fact of the matter is we need an incredible amount of money just to pay the rent and keep the transmitter going and all that kind of thing.
[03:18:23.980 --> 03:18:31.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: But for us to get to that stage, we needed every single one of you that has called in so far.
[03:18:31.720 --> 03:18:36.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every $45, $50 pledge, it all added up.
[03:18:36.500 --> 03:18:38.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's added up to this incredible amount of money.
[03:18:39.020 --> 03:18:43.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: So $150, folks, what I'm trying to say is $150 is not much to shoot for.
[03:18:43.820 --> 03:18:44.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: It really isn't.
[03:18:45.280 --> 03:18:48.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two more callers can do it and we can continue with the program.
[03:18:48.960 --> 03:18:51.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[03:18:53.940 --> 03:19:00.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make that pledge and bring us closer to the matching fund and convey a message.
[03:19:00.380 --> 03:19:03.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Show us that this kind of radio is important to you.
[03:19:03.720 --> 03:19:09.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And by showing us that, you'll be ensuring that we can continue doing this in the future.
[03:19:09.180 --> 03:19:14.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because there are a lot of issues, a lot of topics that have yet to come out of this case.
[03:19:14.480 --> 03:19:16.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: You think Twin Peaks is interesting, folks.
[03:19:16.560 --> 03:19:20.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, this has more hidden innuendos than you can imagine.
[03:19:21.640 --> 03:19:22.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Give a call now.
[03:19:22.700 --> 03:19:25.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[03:19:25.580 --> 03:19:26.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I believe we have two callers.
[03:19:27.940 --> 03:19:29.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, I believe we do.
[03:19:29.220 --> 03:19:31.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: So one more call is all it's going to take.
[03:19:31.940 --> 03:19:33.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[03:19:34.180 --> 03:19:38.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's go back to the phones and hopefully I won't have to ask again.
[03:19:39.180 --> 03:19:39.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do you think, John?
[03:19:40.640 --> 03:19:41.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, it ought to be a done deal.
[03:19:42.240 --> 03:19:42.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[03:19:42.760 --> 03:19:59.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me just warn the folks that are calling in on the call-in line, which is 212-279-3407, that John Perry Barlow is in Wyoming and he's got a rather distant phone connection.
[03:19:59.120 --> 03:20:06.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, John, I was wondering maybe you could not make any noise for a second and I can just bring up the volume of your long-distance phone line, which I think is quite impressive.
[03:20:06.960 --> 03:20:12.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'd like folks to just hear the sounds that go with a true long-distance connection here.
[03:20:12.300 --> 03:20:12.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hold on.
[03:20:15.940 --> 03:20:18.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it didn't sound quite as good as I hoped it would, but there's kind of a buzz there.
[03:20:20.860 --> 03:20:23.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: But you're adding the sticks a bit.
[03:20:23.600 --> 03:20:30.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the phone connection is rather far away and not of the loudest clarity.
[03:20:30.960 --> 03:20:35.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: So the people calling in will be conferencing you together with John out there in Wyoming.
[03:20:35.820 --> 03:20:41.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wyoming, you may have trouble hearing each other, so be careful when you speak that someone else isn't speaking at the same time.
[03:20:42.160 --> 03:20:43.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's something you've got to watch out for.
[03:20:44.280 --> 03:20:49.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, our technology here isn't as good as it could be, I suppose, but we're moving there.
[03:20:49.280 --> 03:20:50.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're moving in that direction.
[03:20:50.360 --> 03:20:54.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you can help us get there by calling and making a pledge, 212-279-3400.
[03:20:55.020 --> 03:20:56.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's take some calls.
[03:20:56.900 --> 03:20:57.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good morning.
[03:20:57.600 --> 03:20:58.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good morning.
[03:21:00.040 --> 03:21:02.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Covering a very important area this morning.
[03:21:02.820 --> 03:21:03.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm enjoying the program.
[03:21:04.740 --> 03:21:11.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: And especially a fine guest, I thought, in Steve Jackson earlier from Austin.
[03:21:12.660 --> 03:21:23.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if people missed that BBS number, which I noted down, maybe I can repeat, that was 512-447-4449.
[03:21:23.920 --> 03:21:26.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: A fellow who's personally being given a very hard time.
[03:21:27.960 --> 03:21:41.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: I have a couple of points that, shall we say, bothered me that John Barlow has brought to the WBAI audience here that I'd like to address.
[03:21:41.100 --> 03:21:54.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: But first, I wanted to say that one of the callers earlier to Jackson from Texas identified a certain bulletin board in Manhattan, I believe, something about red flag.
[03:21:55.200 --> 03:21:56.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know if he gave it.
[03:21:56.640 --> 03:22:00.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm sure he didn't give the phone number of that bulletin board.
[03:22:00.200 --> 03:22:10.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: And maybe if he's listening or someone who knows the board I'm speaking of, maybe that person could call the switchboard at WBAI tomorrow, leave the bulletin board number there.
[03:22:10.720 --> 03:22:19.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: I and maybe some others would like to know that board, a board that's discussing the thrust of America these days, encroaching fascism, if you would.
[03:22:19.440 --> 03:22:32.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay, but also another suggestion that might get it to you a little faster would be if somebody knows that number or is involved with that board to call the bulletin board that you just gave the number for and leave that number there, then you can call it and retrieve it.
[03:22:32.940 --> 03:22:33.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Great idea.
[03:22:33.940 --> 03:22:34.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: Great idea.
[03:22:35.540 --> 03:22:51.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, just on general encroaching fascism, there's going to be on WBAI a fine program on May 28th, 3.30 to 4.30, or is it 2.30 to 3.30?
[03:22:51.740 --> 03:22:57.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: One of those hours on Monday, May 28th, two days before Gorbachev gets here.
[03:22:58.220 --> 03:23:04.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: An analytical program, a very revolutionary program, shall I say, and people ought to listen.
[03:23:06.140 --> 03:23:32.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: On the subjects raised by the caller from the person you're speaking with from out west, Wyoming, one first observation is that although a government certainly has concern over maintaining what it considers to be its rights in communication and not having people muscle in on its territory,
[03:23:32.520 --> 03:23:43.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: the much greater problem, in my view, is the corporations who control communications who don't want any muscling in on their territory.
[03:23:43.600 --> 03:23:52.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, after all, you know, Baby Bells and Big Bell are not government, nor is TRW government.
[03:23:52.300 --> 03:23:57.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: On the other hand, government, you might say, is a stepchild of those corporations.
[03:23:59.660 --> 03:24:01.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: General Electric is not government.
[03:24:02.120 --> 03:24:07.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, General Electric is not supposed to be government, but General Electric, in fact, is becoming government.
[03:24:07.780 --> 03:24:09.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's perhaps what fascism is.
[03:24:10.860 --> 03:24:21.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: There was a statement made by John down there in the west, or out there in the west, which I find almost amazing.
[03:24:21.800 --> 03:24:24.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: A statement went something like this.
[03:24:24.640 --> 03:24:29.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: In the fullness of time, John, if you're listening, you said something like this.
[03:24:29.100 --> 03:24:32.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: In the fullness of time, the Constitution will stop them.
[03:24:32.300 --> 03:24:38.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: That is, these guys who are taking liberties with our liberties.
[03:24:39.280 --> 03:24:46.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: You said also, I have some limited faith in the courts, especially on the high end.
[03:24:47.100 --> 03:24:48.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, that's almost an exact quote.
[03:24:49.400 --> 03:25:09.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: The problem, the reason why we've been losing at an unprecedented rate our liberties one after the other in the past ten years, the reason why every Monday afternoon is a horror listening to the new set of losses coming up out of Washington is because the courts,
[03:25:09.860 --> 03:25:14.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: the federal courts, are packed by Reagan-Bush.
[03:25:14.920 --> 03:25:21.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: They have named more than 50% of the individuals who sit on the federal benches.
[03:25:22.120 --> 03:25:33.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Even if you win on local levels, important matters, those questions are always eventually thrown into federal courts and you lose there, certainly if it gets to the Supreme Court.
[03:25:33.940 --> 03:25:43.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: They've got at least four, more like five of the nine, and any one of the three older, reasonable guys dies in the next four years, six years.
[03:25:44.420 --> 03:25:45.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's finished.
[03:25:45.880 --> 03:25:47.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've got a Scalia up there.
[03:25:47.700 --> 03:25:48.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: We almost had a Bork.
[03:25:48.760 --> 03:25:54.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: And yet, you know, John Barlow there tells us that he's a Republican rancher.
[03:25:54.320 --> 03:25:57.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, we went through eight years of a Republican rancher.
[03:25:57.380 --> 03:26:00.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, let's give John a chance to reply to that, okay?
[03:26:00.620 --> 03:26:02.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, look, I'll have to agree with you.
[03:26:02.880 --> 03:26:06.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: My favorite oxymoron is Justice Rehnquist.
[03:26:08.980 --> 03:26:12.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I guess I'm basically optimistic.
[03:26:13.680 --> 03:26:26.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like there is a popular commitment to the Constitution in this country, and that popular commitment expresses itself most succinctly in the courts.
[03:26:26.920 --> 03:26:30.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have any faith at all in the other two branches of government.
[03:26:31.600 --> 03:26:47.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I guess if I'm going to find any repository for optimism, it's going to be in the ability of people, regardless of their ideologies, to listen to a case and decide it on its merits.
[03:26:47.180 --> 03:26:53.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I would, you know, I'm not sanguine about our chances with the current Supreme Court.
[03:26:54.100 --> 03:26:57.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would readily agree to some of your concerns.
[03:26:58.060 --> 03:27:11.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you have to look at the fact that that court, in spite of having been pecked by Reagan, still came down with a pretty reasonable decision on the flag, which is now subject to great controversy.
[03:27:12.600 --> 03:27:15.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: I should point out that was by a very narrow margin, though, wasn't it?
[03:27:15.620 --> 03:27:16.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was.
[03:27:17.800 --> 03:27:23.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: But that wasn't perhaps the rationale of those who make decisions in these type matters.
[03:27:23.300 --> 03:27:34.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: You might say that the court, perhaps even in retaking the flag case, is looking for the opportunity to create an amendment to the Constitution.
[03:27:34.900 --> 03:27:56.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: And in fact, to turn all political discussion in this time of crashing, collapsing standard of living for most working Americans, gifts such as we've never seen, to the super rich, like cutting of their tax rates from 70% down to 28%, while the bottom tax rate is raised from 11% to the new minimum 15%,
[03:27:56.680 --> 03:28:25.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: the minimum wage frozen for 10 years at $3.35, and Bush fighting tooth and claw against any raise and had to give just a few pennies until 1992, the horrors, one on top of the next, are not... the rate of those horrors are not diminishing what kind of housing we're living,
[03:28:25.960 --> 03:28:30.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: education, which is unaccessible, $20,000 per year, who's got them.
[03:28:30.260 --> 03:28:44.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: But the discussion of those significant matters is waylaid by our all suddenly having to turn our attention to whether or not it should or should not be legal or illegal to burn the flag.
[03:28:44.980 --> 03:29:00.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's where discussion will move, beginning in July or August of this year, when the Supreme Court on an accelerated calendar comes down and tells us, we are going to indeed require you to have a constitutional amendment if you want to touch this little decision that we've thrown out.
[03:29:00.820 --> 03:29:01.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Very calculated.
[03:29:02.220 --> 03:29:05.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hundreds of matters the Supreme Court can bring to its calendar.
[03:29:05.700 --> 03:29:12.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: It chose, as the most monumental matter it wanted to deal with right now on an accelerated basis, the matter of the flag.
[03:29:12.580 --> 03:29:13.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's a scam.
[03:29:13.720 --> 03:29:15.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, sir, I understand what you're saying.
[03:29:16.020 --> 03:29:22.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't want to get too far away from the subject tonight, so I'm going to give John a chance to respond to that, and we're going to take another call.
[03:29:22.700 --> 03:29:23.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks very much for calling.
[03:29:23.720 --> 03:29:24.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: John?
[03:29:24.520 --> 03:29:38.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, actually, I think the point he brings up that's more serious, and I don't know, if I felt as pessimistic as he apparently does, I don't know how I'd make it up in the morning.
[03:29:38.660 --> 03:29:50.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the largest source of pessimism I see is the withering of government, oddly enough, and the rise of the corporate state.
[03:29:52.120 --> 03:30:05.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I look at what's going on in Washington, and I see a sclerosis and paralysis that's entered the federal government that is going to ultimately end in its dissolution.
[03:30:05.940 --> 03:30:13.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the replacement, obviously, is going to be the modern multinational corporation.
[03:30:14.620 --> 03:30:24.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I don't know who watches those institutions, if there isn't government of a sufficient force to check their excesses.
[03:30:24.620 --> 03:30:37.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I think that we're swiftly reaching a point where there isn't going to be enough government in the world to stop an institution like Mitsubishi, General Motors.
[03:30:37.320 --> 03:30:37.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[03:30:37.920 --> 03:30:50.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to take the opportunity to sort of steer this 50,000-watt radio station back over towards the subject of the computer hackers and high technology and all that kind of thing.
[03:30:51.720 --> 03:30:53.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is an interesting discussion.
[03:30:53.740 --> 03:30:57.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why I'm doing that, because this could go on for hours more.
[03:30:59.060 --> 03:31:12.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to talk specifically about what happened on May 8th a little bit more, because I've also got the press release that the Secret Service put out on that day.
[03:31:13.260 --> 03:31:19.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: We discussed a little bit of it before, but I think there's a couple of things in here that deserve some attention.
[03:31:20.620 --> 03:31:23.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Over 150 special agents of the U.S.
[03:31:23.480 --> 03:31:35.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Secret Service, teamed with numerous local and state law enforcement agencies, served 27 search warrants on Tuesday, May 8th, 1990, in various cities across the United States.
[03:31:36.280 --> 03:31:53.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Cities included Chicago, Cincinnati, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, Newark, New York, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Plano, Texas, never heard of that one before, Richmond, Virginia, San Diego, San Jose, and Tucson, Arizona.
[03:31:54.060 --> 03:31:59.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: The warrants stem from a two-year investigation of illegal computer hacking activities.
[03:32:02.160 --> 03:32:05.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: The United States Secret Service, in cooperation with the U.S.
[03:32:05.920 --> 03:32:21.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Attorney's Office and the Attorney General for the State of Arizona, established an operation utilizing sophisticated investigative techniques to target computer hackers who traffic in and abuse stolen credit card numbers, who use unauthorized long-distance dialing codes,
[03:32:21.580 --> 03:32:25.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: and who conduct unauthorized access and damage to computers.
[03:32:26.480 --> 03:32:38.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, as I said before, I don't know of any computer hackers that would argue with the point that people who steal credit card numbers and buy things and don't pay for them are committing a crime and should be punished.
[03:32:38.400 --> 03:32:39.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, very much so.
[03:32:40.300 --> 03:32:42.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think that's what we're talking about today.
[03:32:42.360 --> 03:32:52.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that last statement where they refer to these things as long-distance dialing codes, I don't know anybody who refers to them as long-distance dialing codes.
[03:32:53.160 --> 03:32:57.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think that sort of tells you that they're kind of out of touch with the technology.
[03:32:57.120 --> 03:33:01.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, they're talking about sprint codes or MCI codes or something like that.
[03:33:02.000 --> 03:33:06.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know anybody that calls them dialing codes, because you don't even dial anything anymore.
[03:33:06.920 --> 03:33:09.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that's a minor point, I suppose.
[03:33:10.500 --> 03:33:16.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: On May 8, 1990, 40 computers and 23,000 disks were seized.
[03:33:17.320 --> 03:33:30.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: The conceivable criminal violations of this operation have serious implications for the health and welfare of all individuals, corporations, and United States government agencies relying on computers and telephones to communicate.
[03:33:30.780 --> 03:33:42.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I'm going to read that sentence again, except this time I'd like you to think of it in the way that we've been presenting it tonight in the violations that the federal government is guilty of.
[03:33:42.400 --> 03:33:50.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: The conceivable criminal violations of this operation have serious implications for the health and welfare of all individuals, corporations, and U.S.
[03:33:50.640 --> 03:33:54.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: government agencies relying on computers and telephones to communicate.
[03:33:54.860 --> 03:33:57.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it carries a bit more weight when we say it.
[03:33:58.020 --> 03:34:04.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: The following facts demonstrate the potential for extensive damage in this case, and I think this is quite interesting here.
[03:34:06.060 --> 03:34:11.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: The telecommunications industry is estimating monetary losses as high as 50 million dollars.
[03:34:11.900 --> 03:34:17.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not quite sure where they get that figure, but that's what they claim they're losing because of computer hackers.
[03:34:18.640 --> 03:34:25.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the more important point here, hackers had the ability to access and review the files of hospital patients.
[03:34:26.060 --> 03:34:33.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Furthermore, they could have added, deleted, or altered vital patient information, possibly causing life-threatening situations.
[03:34:33.900 --> 03:34:35.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, John, have you heard anything about that?
[03:34:35.520 --> 03:34:36.180]  I don't know.
[03:34:36.740 --> 03:34:37.780]  That's incredible.
[03:34:38.040 --> 03:34:39.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's a new one.
[03:34:39.960 --> 03:34:45.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I have not been able to find out from anybody which hospital this is.
[03:34:46.180 --> 03:34:52.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: But you'll notice in the wording of this, they could have added, deleted, or altered vital patient information.
[03:34:52.400 --> 03:34:53.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: They could have.
[03:34:53.560 --> 03:34:55.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: They did not, but they could have.
[03:34:56.060 --> 03:34:59.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: So are we going to convict people of crimes of what they could have done?
[03:35:00.420 --> 03:35:01.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: According to this...
[03:35:01.280 --> 03:35:02.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wait, I didn't catch... I didn't catch
[03:35:07.860 --> 03:35:08.780]  a huge lie.
[03:35:09.860 --> 03:35:12.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: 50 million or 50 billion dollars lost?
[03:35:12.520 --> 03:35:13.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, you're talking about the other point.
[03:35:13.740 --> 03:35:15.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: That was 50 million with an M.
[03:35:15.340 --> 03:35:15.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: A million?
[03:35:15.540 --> 03:35:16.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:35:16.360 --> 03:35:19.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Which I guess isn't all that much of the entire telecommunications industry.
[03:35:20.020 --> 03:35:22.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I think that's minor compared to this hospital point.
[03:35:23.220 --> 03:35:24.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, let me ask you something.
[03:35:25.300 --> 03:35:39.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the course of my discussions with various hackers and crackers over the last several months, I've come to the conclusion that there aren't more than about 30 or 40 of these guys that are really adept at this.
[03:35:39.780 --> 03:35:43.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, how many people do you think are actually doing this?
[03:35:43.540 --> 03:35:46.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I think many, many people are interested in this.
[03:35:46.820 --> 03:35:54.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Judging from the response that I've seen with 2600 and with hackers across the world, everybody wants to know more about this.
[03:35:54.660 --> 03:35:57.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I mean, that's not my question.
[03:35:57.400 --> 03:35:57.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, that's not.
[03:35:57.660 --> 03:35:59.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many people are actually able to do it?
[03:35:59.840 --> 03:36:03.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you see, you learn how to do it.
[03:36:03.140 --> 03:36:04.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you learn by asking questions.
[03:36:04.900 --> 03:36:06.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: So it's kind of hard to say.
[03:36:06.320 --> 03:36:09.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, if right now there's... You're probably right.
[03:36:09.660 --> 03:36:13.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's probably only about 30 or 40 people that are really good at this kind of thing.
[03:36:13.160 --> 03:36:15.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they're probably all the subjects of investigations right now.
[03:36:16.440 --> 03:36:26.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: But then there's a whole lot of other people that have the interest and the potential to learn how systems operate and how they can be abused and how they can be strengthened.
[03:36:27.340 --> 03:36:31.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: And those are the people that we're trying to reach.
[03:36:31.100 --> 03:36:35.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: The people that have a curiosity and want to satisfy that curiosity.
[03:36:36.460 --> 03:36:50.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think it's important that we do reach these people because the alternative is to simply allow huge computer systems to be run by a series of laws, to be run by the government.
[03:36:51.080 --> 03:36:53.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think that's scary.
[03:36:53.520 --> 03:36:57.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me just go back to this hospital thing for a second, because I have a point to make here.
[03:36:58.720 --> 03:37:02.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: They had the ability to access and review the files, okay?
[03:37:02.320 --> 03:37:04.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: They did not, according to this.
[03:37:04.160 --> 03:37:06.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: They could have added, deleted, or altered vital patient information.
[03:37:07.140 --> 03:37:09.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: But according to that, that implies that they did not.
[03:37:10.040 --> 03:37:23.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, by charging all these people with that crime, and by making it stick in people's minds that they could have done these horrible things to hospitals, they're ignoring the real point of the issue.
[03:37:23.680 --> 03:37:29.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: The real point being that there's a hospital out there somewhere that's open to this kind of abuse.
[03:37:29.420 --> 03:37:31.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have they fixed that system?
[03:37:31.220 --> 03:37:39.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have they identified the hospital and said, hey, you guys are doing something bad here by having wide open doors that people can access and alter information?
[03:37:39.960 --> 03:37:44.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I think that's where the real crime is, the person that left that door open in the first place.
[03:37:44.260 --> 03:37:51.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're not talking about a phone company computer or a credit computer or something that just has monetary value attached to it.
[03:37:51.480 --> 03:37:53.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're talking about something that has human lives.
[03:37:53.760 --> 03:37:59.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think when something like this happens, it should be exposed, and people should know what's what's really going on.
[03:37:59.860 --> 03:38:07.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Instead of blaming something on hackers who didn't even do anything, all they did was find out about it, apparently, and they could have done this.
[03:38:07.980 --> 03:38:10.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: So now they're being blamed as if they did do something.
[03:38:11.420 --> 03:38:13.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: The incompetence, though, is being protected.
[03:38:13.320 --> 03:38:15.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we're all sort of in a conspiracy of silence about it.
[03:38:15.940 --> 03:38:17.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think that's the real issue.
[03:38:17.460 --> 03:38:22.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I think the real issue is the fact that people had the capacity to do it and didn't do it.
[03:38:25.340 --> 03:38:29.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: What we have here is the best protection of all, which is conscience.
[03:38:29.800 --> 03:38:31.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's being exercised.
[03:38:33.140 --> 03:38:39.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't imagine anybody who would be so debased that he'd want to endanger the life of a stranger for the hell of it.
[03:38:41.120 --> 03:38:50.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the problem with this statement is that there is contained in it the assumption that the ability is the same thing as the desire.
[03:38:50.480 --> 03:38:56.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I, you know, my perception of human nature is far from that.
[03:38:57.280 --> 03:39:02.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, maybe I have an unnecessarily naive notion about my fellow man.
[03:39:03.320 --> 03:39:14.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, really, what this stuff is, is the scare tactics that are involved here remind me a lot of the of the scare tactics that's around terrorism and child abduction.
[03:39:15.640 --> 03:39:22.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: In 1987, this country lost seven of its citizens to terrorist acts worldwide.
[03:39:23.260 --> 03:39:40.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And yet, we have completely revised our system of government, our security systems, how we travel, uh, practically element, every element of our lives has been revised in order to meet this incredible threat of terrorism.
[03:39:40.860 --> 03:39:43.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it's the same thing with child abduction.
[03:39:43.520 --> 03:39:55.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, if you look at a milk carton or a post office wall or anything like that, you'll see evidence that children are being snatched away by the thousands every day.
[03:39:55.080 --> 03:40:01.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And yet there are fewer than 10 abductions by strangers in the United States a year.
[03:40:02.620 --> 03:40:13.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what we have here is another case where the authorities are trying to create, uh, public hysteria that will result in increased control over civil liberties.
[03:40:13.840 --> 03:40:15.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it's pretty transparent.
[03:40:16.860 --> 03:40:17.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[03:40:17.400 --> 03:40:31.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to go back to the phones, but first, uh, a bit of information to pass on the, uh, uh, the modem number for that, uh, that computer known as, uh, Tentra Red Flag in New York City.
[03:40:31.700 --> 03:40:35.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's 212-406-9108.
[03:40:35.860 --> 03:40:41.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you want voice and technical support, 212-406-9107.
[03:40:41.840 --> 03:40:52.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm also told that we, uh, uh, we did get a couple of calls, but, uh, we have still, we're halfway to, uh, the matching fund of $150.
[03:40:52.180 --> 03:40:57.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we need 75 more and, uh, two more callers could do that very easily.
[03:40:57.440 --> 03:40:58.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, one more caller could do that.
[03:40:58.860 --> 03:41:07.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, remember for a pledge of $55, you can get a full year of 2600 magazine and keep updated on all these issues as they occur.
[03:41:08.000 --> 03:41:11.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, 212-279-3400.
[03:41:11.780 --> 03:41:18.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a very important number to call because, uh, by helping us reach that goal, and we only have a couple more minutes to do it.
[03:41:18.600 --> 03:41:23.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we need to get a couple more calls so that we can, we can raise $75 in the next few minutes.
[03:41:24.180 --> 03:41:30.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And by raising that $75, we'll actually be making 300 because it'll go towards $150 matching fund.
[03:41:31.100 --> 03:41:32.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: 150 times two is 300.
[03:41:33.500 --> 03:41:35.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Simple arithmetic and it all adds up.
[03:41:35.480 --> 03:41:37.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what's been going on over the last couple of weeks.
[03:41:37.740 --> 03:41:39.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, help us out here.
[03:41:39.680 --> 03:41:41.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[03:41:41.920 --> 03:41:47.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you find yourself listening to the radio now, if you think this is interesting, there's a lot more coming.
[03:41:47.980 --> 03:41:48.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: There really is.
[03:41:49.100 --> 03:41:53.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we want to make those, uh, those radio programs available to you.
[03:41:53.360 --> 03:41:56.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: We want to bring you alternative ideas and new information.
[03:41:57.360 --> 03:42:00.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: But in order to continue doing that, we've got to stay on the air.
[03:42:00.460 --> 03:42:02.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in order for us to stay on the air, we need your support.
[03:42:03.500 --> 03:42:05.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, uh, you can help us take a big step now.
[03:42:05.940 --> 03:42:11.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're one of the next couple of callers, you'll help us reach that, uh, that matching grant and double the money that we get.
[03:42:11.960 --> 03:42:14.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it'll make us feel real good this morning.
[03:42:14.900 --> 03:42:17.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, in addition to feeling really tired, we'll feel really good.
[03:42:18.040 --> 03:42:19.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's take a couple more calls.
[03:42:19.600 --> 03:42:26.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: But please, if you are trying to get through on the call in line and you find that it's busy, make a call to the pledge line because there's people waiting there.
[03:42:27.460 --> 03:42:29.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we really need to hear from you.
[03:42:29.440 --> 03:42:31.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[03:42:32.400 --> 03:42:32.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[03:42:33.900 --> 03:42:34.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[03:42:34.500 --> 03:42:35.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, go ahead.
[03:42:35.260 --> 03:42:35.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
[03:42:35.800 --> 03:42:36.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[03:42:36.500 --> 03:42:41.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, uh, first, first I'd like to say that I've enjoyed John's music for a long time.
[03:42:42.080 --> 03:42:44.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, John, can you hear this person?
[03:42:44.340 --> 03:42:44.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Just barely.
[03:42:45.060 --> 03:42:46.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, is that any better?
[03:42:46.600 --> 03:42:47.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thanks.
[03:42:47.280 --> 03:42:51.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, um, yeah, um, I, I wanted to say that I enjoyed your music for a long time.
[03:42:51.920 --> 03:43:01.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the, um, on the computer hacking side of it, uh, I just, I can't help but notice there's a little, uh, a little inconsistency.
[03:43:02.220 --> 03:43:17.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, at one point, you're, it's, it's okay for people to go into, um, computer systems and unauthorized access to computer systems and just poke around and, and look at other people's information.
[03:43:17.980 --> 03:43:25.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: But then again, on the other hand, you're defensive about giving TRW your information.
[03:43:26.400 --> 03:43:27.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: You understand what I'm saying?
[03:43:27.620 --> 03:43:29.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I understand exactly what you're talking about.
[03:43:29.680 --> 03:43:40.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and the reason for that inconsistency is that I don't have the same, uh, definition of, uh, I don't have, I don't have a parity between individuals and institutions.
[03:43:41.400 --> 03:43:48.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have a basic, uh, almost blind faith in human beings and I have absolutely no faith in institutions.
[03:43:49.360 --> 03:43:54.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, is human beings as a group, in other words, doesn't, uh, doesn't make it, but just individuals?
[03:43:55.080 --> 03:43:58.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I don't think that human beings as a group are human beings any longer.
[03:43:58.520 --> 03:44:04.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that, that after a certain point, they become a collective organism, which is not in any way human.
[03:44:07.300 --> 03:44:08.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Does that answer your question?
[03:44:09.040 --> 03:44:28.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yeah, yeah, I guess, I, I guess it, it doesn't, you know, I, I don't, I don't know, you know, I, it still seems kind of not, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't really flow, but... Well, I think what John is saying is that different rules apply, uh, for individuals and for big corporate giants.
[03:44:28.700 --> 03:44:31.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I, I, let me, let me try to amplify that a little bit.
[03:44:31.880 --> 03:44:37.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: On another level, there's, you know, there's everybody on, on the face of the earth makes up a group, you know?
[03:44:38.360 --> 03:44:42.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so, so, so that's, that's where the inconsistency is.
[03:44:42.260 --> 03:45:07.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, I, you know, I, I don't, I think that some of the, um, it's, it's, it's like we're too late to stop any kind of invasion of privacy or any kind of crackdown that, that, that the government and that group of people, um, um, the, the government and corporations that,
[03:45:07.380 --> 03:45:13.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: that they want to, uh, perpetrate on us because they've had the technology for years now.
[03:45:14.240 --> 03:45:21.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I, John's call, you, you were commenting on the quality of the, of the audio from coming out from Wyoming.
[03:45:22.020 --> 03:45:31.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I'm pretty sure that that phone call gets routed through to Denver and then immediately beamed to a satellite and which is picked up then over here on the east coast somewhere.
[03:45:31.340 --> 03:45:34.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think up in New Hampshire is where they picked them up.
[03:45:34.500 --> 03:45:41.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, um, so as far as, so it, it doesn't really, it's not like it's traveling 3,000 miles in a piece of wire.
[03:45:42.080 --> 03:45:43.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but anything.
[03:45:43.780 --> 03:45:47.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's traveling 50,000 miles through space, which is even more remarkable.
[03:45:47.520 --> 03:45:47.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[03:45:48.100 --> 03:46:06.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: But as, as, as it gets transmitted, the, uh, the, another Supreme Court ruling, which I, I mentioned to, I mentioned to, uh, Emmanuel before, was, uh, last year, the Supreme Court came down and ruled that any, anything that's transmitted over, uh, through,
[03:46:06.560 --> 03:46:12.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: through the air or through the ether is, is, uh, is, is fair game for anybody.
[03:46:13.160 --> 03:46:21.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, anybody can monitor it, anybody can, can pick up on it and anybody can use the information that they, uh, that they gain that way.
[03:46:21.680 --> 03:46:28.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: As long as it's transmitted through the air and, and not solely transmitted through wires, it's, um, it's open.
[03:46:30.720 --> 03:46:35.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that, is that what you're saying, uh, that that's, uh, that's the way things stand now?
[03:46:36.060 --> 03:46:39.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, that's what the Supreme Court decided last year for us.
[03:46:40.200 --> 03:46:48.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because it's still, uh, illegal to, uh, to listen to certain kinds of, of communications based on the ECPA of, uh, what, 1986?
[03:46:48.880 --> 03:46:49.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[03:46:49.780 --> 03:46:51.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: You see, that's, that's what I don't understand.
[03:46:51.660 --> 03:46:56.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, uh, the ECPA says that, but then the, this is, this, this, hello?
[03:46:56.380 --> 03:46:57.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, we're getting some loud clicks.
[03:46:57.960 --> 03:46:58.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[03:46:58.600 --> 03:47:09.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the other, on the other side, the, the Supreme Court ruling came out after the ECPA, um, after that ECPA was made law.
[03:47:09.860 --> 03:47:26.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, it's just kind on one of those things that, uh, on, on one hand, um, you know, on one hand, they make this one law, and then, the, the, the, what is the, uh, Tom Waits says that the, the large print giveth and the small print taketh away.
[03:47:27.700 --> 03:47:28.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know?
[03:47:28.740 --> 03:47:31.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and, and that's, that's where that's at.
[03:47:32.120 --> 03:47:34.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we're going to try to take a couple more calls.
[03:47:34.160 --> 03:47:34.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks so much for calling.
[03:47:35.080 --> 03:47:38.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's, uh, that's, I just wanted to bring up those couple of points there.
[03:47:38.280 --> 03:47:52.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, I think that, I think that the, that the idea that the small print taketh away is, is, uh, critical, uh, because the, the erosion of liberty, uh, now is, is all piecemeal and it's little bits at a time.
[03:47:52.480 --> 03:48:06.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: The, the example that somebody brought up earlier about the legal declaration that your bank records belong to the bank and not to you is a classic case of what would seem to be a very minor instance, and yet I think is, is fundamental.
[03:48:07.180 --> 03:48:07.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[03:48:07.620 --> 03:48:08.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me just make one more point.
[03:48:09.140 --> 03:48:13.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: You, you, you wanted to put faith in the Supreme Court in deciding your case.
[03:48:14.160 --> 03:48:21.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, you make the point that, well, the Supreme Court kind of did okay in, in, in the flag burning case.
[03:48:21.820 --> 03:48:27.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: But since the flag burning case, they've also outlawed abortions for women, right?
[03:48:27.400 --> 03:48:29.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: And restricted abortions for women.
[03:48:29.740 --> 03:48:34.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they've, they've made it okay to execute retarded teenagers.
[03:48:34.880 --> 03:48:35.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[03:48:35.440 --> 03:48:36.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I guess
[03:48:40.500 --> 03:48:58.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: we'll, we'll have to leave it there at this point, but this is a story that's going to be continuing in the, uh, in the weeks and, uh, uh, possibly months ahead.
[03:49:04.240 --> 03:49:09.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: We want to thank all the people that have called up and, uh, called in to pledge their support as well.
[03:49:09.400 --> 03:49:12.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we want to thank, uh, Steve Jackson for being a part of the program earlier.
[03:49:13.040 --> 03:49:15.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: We want to thank John Perry Barlow for being here now.
[03:49:15.840 --> 03:49:20.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, John, I should, I should remind you that the, uh, Grateful Dead show is coming up right now.
[03:49:21.360 --> 03:49:21.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, really?
[03:49:22.060 --> 03:49:22.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:49:22.200 --> 03:49:30.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, you might, you might be very interested in, uh, in, in, in talking to the folks involved in this because, uh, they've been bringing this kind of program to you, uh, for quite a while.
[03:49:30.980 --> 03:49:32.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, uh, here's one of them now.
[03:49:33.020 --> 03:49:33.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[03:49:33.360 --> 03:49:34.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, let me introduce myself, John.
[03:49:34.480 --> 03:49:41.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: My name is Dan Ivanovich and, uh, we get an opportunity at this, uh, late night hour to, uh, indulge in great, Grateful Dead music.
[03:49:42.140 --> 03:49:44.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I'd certainly like, you know, just some comments.
[03:49:44.540 --> 03:49:54.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't have any prepared questions or anything, but, uh, uh, as a songwriter and some, someone who's, who's been associated with them, any comments that you'd feel like making would be more than appreciated.
[03:49:54.500 --> 03:49:55.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you're breaking up.
[03:49:56.240 --> 03:49:58.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's interesting with all this discussion of telecommunications.
[03:49:59.220 --> 03:50:04.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I'm hearing the first two or three syllables in the last syllable of everything you say.
[03:50:04.340 --> 03:50:06.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't, I don't have the slightest idea who you are or what you're saying.
[03:50:07.080 --> 03:50:08.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay.
[03:50:08.300 --> 03:50:10.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe he should be using the microphone on that.
[03:50:10.120 --> 03:50:16.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: So what I'm going to do is sort of ease my way out of here and, uh, and then, um, we'll, we'll see if we can communicate with you.
[03:50:16.660 --> 03:50:19.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, otherwise you might just have to pick up the phone and, and, and speak that way.
[03:50:19.760 --> 03:50:26.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: But as far as the telecommunication system, yes, you're, you're becoming acquainted with the famous WBAI phone system, which could certainly use a bit of work.
[03:50:27.320 --> 03:50:29.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, and it, it will get that work if we get some more pledges.
[03:50:30.080 --> 03:50:32.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-279-3400.
[03:50:32.460 --> 03:50:33.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, that'll keep us going.
[03:50:34.080 --> 03:50:37.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: That'll strengthen us and make the, uh, technical things around here work a little bit better.
[03:50:38.300 --> 03:50:39.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[03:50:39.820 --> 03:50:41.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: The program has been the fifth corner.
[03:50:41.400 --> 03:50:43.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: I want to thank everyone that's, uh, played a part in it.
[03:50:44.220 --> 03:50:46.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we've brought out some very important issues tonight.
[03:50:47.320 --> 03:50:48.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are more.
[03:50:49.020 --> 03:51:00.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, by making that, that call now, by pledging your support for $55, you can, uh, get $2,600 in the mail for a full year, and you'll become probably the most educated person on your block.
[03:51:01.340 --> 03:51:04.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks again to everybody that, uh, that participated.
[03:51:04.580 --> 03:51:12.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I guess I'll see you all in about two weeks or so, 1145 on, uh, on Thursday night, Friday morning, that kind of thing.
[03:51:12.720 --> 03:51:14.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Until then, good night.
[03:51:14.700 --> 03:51:16.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's go out with some King Missile.
[03:54:43.330 --> 03:54:44.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right, good morning.
[03:54:44.550 --> 03:54:47.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is Morning Dew on WBAI New York.
[03:54:47.950 --> 03:54:55.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, um, as happens, we inherit, uh, the, uh, wonderful guests, uh, uh, from other shows.
[03:54:55.490 --> 03:55:03.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we have John Barlow, who is the, uh, songwriter, um, are you there, John?
[03:55:03.250 --> 03:55:03.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I'm still here.
[03:55:04.190 --> 03:55:04.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[03:55:04.930 --> 03:55:14.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let me give you a little more volume there, so you come in loud and clear, uh, for the Grateful Dead, who has written almost, um, a third of the songs.
[03:55:14.390 --> 03:55:20.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, do you have any favorite songs that you've written that, uh... Oh, yeah, I, I'm, I'm real fond of Cassidy.
[03:55:21.410 --> 03:55:25.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, Cassidy, uh, you know, instrumentally is performed so beautifully.
[03:55:25.490 --> 03:55:26.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Cassidy is a beautiful song, man.
[03:55:26.930 --> 03:55:28.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: I, I love that song, too.
[03:55:28.210 --> 03:55:29.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's a, that's a good one.
[03:55:30.470 --> 03:55:32.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I don't know.
[03:55:32.770 --> 03:55:39.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, on a, on a good night, I love any of them, and on a bad night, I can't stand any of them.
[03:55:41.330 --> 03:55:44.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have, over, over the years, I've heard them played a lot of different ways.
[03:55:45.190 --> 03:55:46.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Are you still a rancher?
[03:55:46.650 --> 03:55:50.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you, are you still... Oh, I got out of the cattle business a couple of years ago.
[03:55:50.430 --> 03:55:54.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: I found that, you know, rock and roll wasn't paying me well enough to keep me in, in cows.
[03:55:55.730 --> 03:55:57.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh... That's the equation, huh?
[03:55:57.870 --> 03:56:01.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that was, that, that had been the equation for 17 years.
[03:56:02.310 --> 03:56:17.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, but it just, it just became so anti-lucrative to run a large ranch in Wyoming that I decided I'd, uh, I'd get away from bulls and into BS, which is, which is a hell of a lot, uh, uh, more remunerative.
[03:56:17.730 --> 03:56:20.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, you know, New York has turned into a media town.
[03:56:20.710 --> 03:56:26.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, every corner is a video store, every bookshop, something to do with media.
[03:56:26.350 --> 03:56:27.830]  New York was always a media town.
[03:56:28.050 --> 03:56:28.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Ah.
[03:56:28.570 --> 03:56:34.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you look at how many copies, uh, of newspapers sold before there were electronic media in New York.
[03:56:35.030 --> 03:56:41.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it just, it's stupefying the number of words that were showered on the people of that town in the 30s every day.
[03:56:42.350 --> 03:56:42.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[03:56:43.330 --> 03:56:43.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[03:56:45.110 --> 03:56:48.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, can you talk about maybe some experiences you've had with the dead?
[03:56:48.710 --> 03:56:53.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, they've obviously changed you, your life, uh, in many ways.
[03:56:53.450 --> 03:56:53.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah.
[03:56:54.890 --> 03:56:58.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, gee, I mean, you know, I've been, I've known those guys.
[03:56:59.550 --> 03:57:05.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, my closest friend since I was 14 is, is a member of the Grateful Dead, right?
[03:57:05.730 --> 03:57:06.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right, right.
[03:57:06.630 --> 03:57:06.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: What?
[03:57:07.170 --> 03:57:07.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: I said right.
[03:57:08.130 --> 03:57:08.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[03:57:08.590 --> 03:57:15.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, I, I could, uh, go on until day after tomorrow talking about experiences I've had with the Grateful Dead.
[03:57:16.670 --> 03:57:22.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, you know, and I, I've known all those guys since, since before there any, there was any such thing.
[03:57:23.530 --> 03:57:25.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, let me ask you another question.
[03:57:26.090 --> 03:57:40.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a feeling here that they may be slowing down their touring, but when I see... Well, it's not so much a matter of slowing down touring is being increasingly, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, cornered as to where we can go.
[03:57:41.790 --> 03:57:44.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we've been banned in Berkeley for God's sake.
[03:57:44.990 --> 03:57:46.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody ever got banned in Berkeley before.
[03:57:47.350 --> 03:57:48.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: That was a college, right?
[03:57:49.470 --> 03:57:54.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it was a combination of the college and the, and the, uh, Berkeley police.
[03:57:54.910 --> 03:57:55.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[03:57:55.950 --> 03:58:02.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, uh, the fact was that, that, uh, we weren't welcome on either front, really.
[03:58:03.730 --> 03:58:03.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[03:58:04.650 --> 03:58:07.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: Cause I can understand... It's increasingly the case.
[03:58:07.350 --> 03:58:11.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there are just, there are just not that many places that want to deal with the aggravation, I guess.
[03:58:13.450 --> 03:58:17.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, I, I, I think that, that it's partly the phenomenon.
[03:58:18.190 --> 03:58:28.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, definitely it's almost a lifestyle to people who, who go on tour and, and stay on tour and who camp out and so on and so forth.
[03:58:28.770 --> 03:58:31.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, it's, it's not just a lifestyle, it's a religion.
[03:58:33.570 --> 03:58:36.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you want to talk about that element in some other songs?
[03:58:37.430 --> 03:58:41.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I don't, I don't have any choices as to what I write a song about, really.
[03:58:42.110 --> 03:58:48.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's just whatever, whatever arrives, uh, that, that seems to fit.
[03:58:48.910 --> 03:58:53.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I, I'd love to be able to write songs about things, but I've never been able to do that yet.
[03:58:54.210 --> 03:58:54.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-huh.
[03:58:55.130 --> 03:59:03.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Ken, when we were on the phone, you gave me a quote, which, uh, I, I value a lot, uh, about the artist, uh, can you please...
[03:59:03.250 --> 03:59:16.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you were, you were talking about where poetic inspiration comes from, and I, an artist friend of mine years ago said to me something that I, I think is just about right, which is that, that art is, is what happens when God decides to speak through a human being.
[03:59:18.530 --> 03:59:19.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I like that a lot.
[03:59:19.670 --> 03:59:24.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: That answers a lot of questions about, uh, about art and truth and so on and so forth.
[03:59:25.670 --> 03:59:25.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[03:59:26.770 --> 03:59:30.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um... uh, you know, we're, around here, we're targeted
[03:59:35.290 --> 03:59:54.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's not funny, because actually, you know, members sitting almost six inches away from me, not now, tonight, but have been put in, well, arrested or charged with, you know, felonies and so on and so forth.
[03:59:54.810 --> 03:59:56.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's not a funny matter at all.
[03:59:56.330 --> 04:00:03.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, I'm... actually, one of the ways in which I get through life is with a black sense of humor.
[04:00:03.690 --> 04:00:06.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, you know, I've laughed at a lot of inappropriate things.
[04:00:06.770 --> 04:00:07.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you have any...
[04:00:07.930 --> 04:00:12.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think you can seriously think about the war on drugs without laughing out loud.
[04:00:12.890 --> 04:00:14.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, think about this for a second.
[04:00:14.770 --> 04:00:29.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: We got a war on drugs in this country, in spite of the fact that the three most physically and emotionally dangerous drugs are in plentiful and cheap supply.
[04:00:30.490 --> 04:00:33.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, I'm a victim of cigarettes, so that must be one of them.
[04:00:33.470 --> 04:00:33.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
[04:00:34.470 --> 04:00:38.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I know my dad died at 45, which is a very young age.
[04:00:38.310 --> 04:00:38.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[04:00:39.710 --> 04:00:41.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I agree with you on that.
[04:00:41.350 --> 04:00:43.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: I just want to ask you something, because I love...
[04:00:43.230 --> 04:00:43.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's not funny.
[04:00:44.010 --> 04:00:44.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what is.
[04:00:44.870 --> 04:00:45.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, no, yeah, okay.
[04:00:46.170 --> 04:00:48.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you have any hangman humor?
[04:00:49.070 --> 04:00:50.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Any gallows humor?
[04:00:52.970 --> 04:00:54.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: You want to hear a good, sick joke?
[04:00:54.690 --> 04:00:55.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is that what you're asking for?
[04:00:55.870 --> 04:00:56.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, I am.
[04:00:57.210 --> 04:00:58.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, all right.
[04:00:59.110 --> 04:00:59.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here it is.
[04:01:00.070 --> 04:01:00.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's late at night.
[04:01:01.090 --> 04:01:02.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can ask you this.
[04:01:02.430 --> 04:01:05.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you get when you cross Lassie with a pit bull?
[04:01:08.050 --> 04:01:08.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know.
[04:01:08.870 --> 04:01:11.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: A beautiful-looking tough dog.
[04:01:11.330 --> 04:01:14.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, you get a dog that rips your leg off and then goes for help.
[04:01:18.070 --> 04:01:18.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:01:20.690 --> 04:01:21.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:01:21.470 --> 04:01:21.470]  Yeah.
[04:01:21.470 --> 04:01:21.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know.
[04:01:22.030 --> 04:01:32.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's, you know, we were promised in the 60s that we would come into control of the planet and of the country, and that just doesn't seem to have happened at all.
[04:01:32.310 --> 04:01:33.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: And who promised you that?
[04:01:33.470 --> 04:01:34.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know.
[04:01:34.370 --> 04:01:36.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think Janis Joplin did herself.
[04:01:36.690 --> 04:01:37.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's find that person.
[04:01:39.470 --> 04:01:40.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think Jimmy did.
[04:01:41.270 --> 04:01:52.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, you know, the 60s, look, as far as I'm concerned, the real meat of the matter is now at hand.
[04:01:52.650 --> 04:01:57.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't look at the 60s as having been a period that ended.
[04:01:58.410 --> 04:02:01.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I feel like the work continues, and we're doing it right now.
[04:02:01.830 --> 04:02:11.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you're doing it at 3 o'clock in the morning in New York, and I'm doing it in Wyoming, and every deadhead in America is doing it with everything he does.
[04:02:12.870 --> 04:02:17.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: The 60s were not about control.
[04:02:17.770 --> 04:02:20.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: The 60s were about relinquishment of control.
[04:02:21.370 --> 04:02:23.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's happening to a very large extent.
[04:02:24.150 --> 04:02:38.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you see a lot of the stuff that's going on now, jeopardizing civil liberties, I think is a reaction to an institutional awareness that there's no longer any such thing as God-given authority.
[04:02:38.990 --> 04:02:41.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there hasn't been since 1967.
[04:02:44.550 --> 04:02:47.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: You mean you have to negotiate personally?
[04:02:47.310 --> 04:02:52.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: You have to negotiate personally, person to person, that there's no divine right to rule?
[04:02:53.010 --> 04:02:53.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is that what you're trying to say?
[04:02:53.930 --> 04:02:54.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[04:02:54.190 --> 04:02:59.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think that we've entered a time where if you want to declare yourself exempt, you can do it.
[04:03:00.970 --> 04:03:02.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you have to exercise a little judgment.
[04:03:04.170 --> 04:03:09.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you don't go up and blow marijuana smoke in the cop's face and expect perfect impunity.
[04:03:09.850 --> 04:03:15.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I find that I can do and say pretty much anything I want and get away with it.
[04:03:15.770 --> 04:03:19.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just have to seize that freedom for myself.
[04:03:20.210 --> 04:03:21.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I hear what you're saying.
[04:03:23.330 --> 04:03:25.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: I want to just tell you...
[04:03:25.930 --> 04:03:27.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I couldn't have done that in the 50s.
[04:03:27.950 --> 04:03:29.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I couldn't have done that in 1965.
[04:03:30.010 --> 04:03:31.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I can do that now.
[04:03:31.950 --> 04:03:33.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: I see what you're saying, yeah.
[04:03:34.370 --> 04:03:38.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: I just want to reiterate, John, that we do believe in the music, you know?
[04:03:40.510 --> 04:03:41.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, Grateful Dead music.
[04:03:42.010 --> 04:03:42.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, so do I.
[04:03:43.030 --> 04:03:44.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I mean, that's why I do it.
[04:03:45.490 --> 04:03:45.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:03:45.950 --> 04:03:52.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: And just to finish my comment, I look at the Grateful Dead on stage and I look how dedicated they are to what they're doing.
[04:03:52.950 --> 04:03:54.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I'm saying, these guys are never going to quit.
[04:03:54.870 --> 04:03:55.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: They're never going to stop touring.
[04:03:56.010 --> 04:03:56.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: They're never going to quit.
[04:03:56.770 --> 04:03:57.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, that's the feeling I get.
[04:03:59.410 --> 04:04:16.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I remember one time about 10 or 15 years ago, I was in a hotel in Denver with Mickey Hart and, uh, we were at actually sort of a low ab, you know, this has had its cycles all along and, and, uh, this was, this was kind of a grim period.
[04:04:16.330 --> 04:04:17.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't remember.
[04:04:17.530 --> 04:04:28.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I don't think we, we hadn't put out anything worth listening to in a while and the audience was kind of tapering off and it was, people were having a lot of trouble with drugs and it was, it was just kind of a dark time.
[04:04:29.990 --> 04:04:34.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, I said, well, what are you going to do after this, man?
[04:04:34.090 --> 04:04:38.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he, and he said, well, I expected to go on doing this until we're doing it in Holiday Inn.
[04:04:42.050 --> 04:04:46.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, you know, I, I think that that's probably about right.
[04:04:46.130 --> 04:04:48.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I don't know what any of those guys would do besides this.
[04:04:50.690 --> 04:04:51.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:04:51.170 --> 04:04:53.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, they're, they're definitely dedicated.
[04:04:53.010 --> 04:05:09.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, there's a lot of dedication all around, you know, but, uh, they're definitely dedicated and, and, and that it's just beautiful to see, you know, and yeah, it is, especially, especially in the face of, uh, of mounting difficulty from the standpoint of,
[04:05:09.330 --> 04:05:13.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: of, uh, social and legal pressure.
[04:05:13.550 --> 04:05:13.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:05:14.150 --> 04:05:25.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I mean, I, I, look, I, I feel like this whole matter with, with the war on drugs and, and the oppression that's being foisted on the deadheads at the moment is, uh, is going to come to a head.
[04:05:25.650 --> 04:05:38.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and what we have to do as a group of people is simply not engage it, you know, I mean, instead of, instead of screaming up against the wall, uh, just say, no, thank you, you know, I mean, opt out, don't deal with it.
[04:05:39.610 --> 04:05:41.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think that's very wise advice.
[04:05:41.710 --> 04:05:43.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, I, I understand you.
[04:05:43.510 --> 04:05:47.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, and if you want to restate that again in a different way, uh, please feel.
[04:05:48.010 --> 04:06:07.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, the, the big mistake from a political and I, I would say spiritual standpoint in the sixties was that we develop this, this symmetry of nastiness, uh, between the, the forces of liberation and the forces of control that, that eventually demean both sides.
[04:06:07.510 --> 04:06:11.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I, you know, instead of symmetry, what you want is complementarity.
[04:06:12.230 --> 04:06:19.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, if you're in gridlock, the way to deal with it is to take a side street, you know, don't, don't meet it head on.
[04:06:20.070 --> 04:06:21.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I agree.
[04:06:21.150 --> 04:06:25.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: I, I was always uncomfortable with, uh, the Appalachian pigs.
[04:06:25.950 --> 04:06:26.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, right.
[04:06:26.690 --> 04:06:27.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: I, I didn't feel that.
[04:06:27.730 --> 04:06:29.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: You call somebody a pig and he'll act like one.
[04:06:30.190 --> 04:06:32.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I didn't feel that it did a, you know, you call a cow a pig.
[04:06:34.030 --> 04:06:34.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Exactly.
[04:06:34.950 --> 04:06:43.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, I, uh, there was this, there was this willingness to deny people their humanity and then shock and surprise when they returned the favor.
[04:06:45.930 --> 04:06:46.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:06:46.690 --> 04:06:49.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I don't, I don't care what somebody thinks.
[04:06:49.150 --> 04:06:50.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's another human being.
[04:06:50.450 --> 04:06:51.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Where do you see us going?
[04:06:51.810 --> 04:07:00.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, um, uh, I, I think what you're saying is you can, you can do your thing and get what you want for yourself in this time now.
[04:07:00.790 --> 04:07:03.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Where do you see us going maybe after the year two, uh, 2000?
[04:07:05.390 --> 04:07:12.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I, I think about that a lot because I've, I've started to become a student of technology or actually a practicing techno crank.
[04:07:13.550 --> 04:07:33.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and I, you know, I, I, I look at sort of the dissolution of government as we know it, but, but not necessarily in the most positive light because what I see erecting itself to, to, uh, assume all those governmental duties is the, is the modern corporation.
[04:07:34.670 --> 04:07:44.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that, that will be the, the facilitator of the economics and the, and the transporter of, uh, goods and services.
[04:07:44.870 --> 04:07:45.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and...
[04:07:45.590 --> 04:07:50.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: But hasn't, hasn't that, for example, in farming done irreparable damage?
[04:07:50.530 --> 04:07:51.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, it has.
[04:07:51.510 --> 04:07:54.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I'm not saying that this is a particularly optimistic view of things.
[04:07:56.150 --> 04:08:04.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I mean, I don't, I don't know how that's going to work out because I don't, I have, I have the lowest expectations of, of corporations.
[04:08:04.610 --> 04:08:10.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I think the corporations are, are other, another life form that is utterly without conscience.
[04:08:10.830 --> 04:08:11.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well...
[04:08:11.430 --> 04:08:13.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: It has no regard whatsoever for human beings.
[04:08:13.790 --> 04:08:18.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: The, the, the basis of, of economics is the arbitration of value according to money.
[04:08:18.390 --> 04:08:22.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: And you can't give things value by money.
[04:08:22.710 --> 04:08:25.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: You have to give things value by, by the inherent value.
[04:08:25.330 --> 04:08:33.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, except for the fact that we've entered into a stage, uh, of civilization where inherent value is a very slippery matter, because how do you, how do you value information?
[04:08:34.630 --> 04:08:39.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I mean, is it, is it appropriate to say that anybody owns knowledge?
[04:08:40.490 --> 04:08:44.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and if it is appropriate, how do you put a value on it?
[04:08:44.090 --> 04:09:05.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I was talking to your, to the earlier show host here about a document that, that, uh, uh, has supposedly been stolen from, uh, Bell South, six page, uh, bureaucratic, uh, document that was stolen by a computer hacker.
[04:09:05.830 --> 04:09:15.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bell South has valued this document, which is the most boring thing I've ever read, uh, at $79,445.
[04:09:15.950 --> 04:09:21.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I don't know how the hell they, uh, came to that figure, but it sort of brings up the point.
[04:09:21.970 --> 04:09:31.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we've got most of what is now valuable in this society is not a tangible thing that you can easily come to a market for.
[04:09:32.050 --> 04:09:36.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's John, John, the thing that, that can be reproduced infinite numbers of times.
[04:09:37.610 --> 04:09:38.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: John?
[04:09:38.490 --> 04:09:38.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[04:09:39.050 --> 04:09:40.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: I want to put it in these terms.
[04:09:41.050 --> 04:09:49.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've heard a quote that the man said that the problem with people today is that when they see a flower, they think it's a dream.
[04:09:51.610 --> 04:09:53.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a great, who said that?
[04:09:53.270 --> 04:09:54.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's a Zen quote.
[04:09:54.630 --> 04:09:55.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a wonderful thing.
[04:09:56.730 --> 04:09:56.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:09:57.290 --> 04:10:10.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I, you know, you, you look at a forest, you have to appreciate the forest for, for, for what it is, not for the monetary gain you can get from, from, from, um, cutting down the trees.
[04:10:10.670 --> 04:10:11.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, all right.
[04:10:11.470 --> 04:10:25.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, see, I, I think that that there's a sign of hope there because the, the percentage of people in the world that appreciate a forest for what it is, is a very great deal higher than it was 50 years ago.
[04:10:26.190 --> 04:10:42.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, granted, there are fewer forests and, and, and getting fewer all the time, but, you know, where, where once there was just John Muir, there is now, uh, you know, 70 or 80 percent of the people in this country who are willing to make economic sacrifices in order to save forests.
[04:10:42.430 --> 04:10:47.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I think that, you know, the, the, the most important thing is consciousness.
[04:10:48.110 --> 04:10:48.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[04:10:48.890 --> 04:11:11.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I, I, I, I, there, there is this old sort of, uh, I think leftover notion from the rest of the 20th century that the way to change society is, is by imposed control, whether it's with communism or the new deal or fascism or, or social democracy.
[04:11:11.970 --> 04:11:17.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and really the way to change society is by changing consciousness.
[04:11:17.730 --> 04:11:21.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's just the hard way, but that's the only way that's going to work.
[04:11:22.050 --> 04:11:23.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it is working.
[04:11:24.210 --> 04:11:24.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[04:11:24.970 --> 04:11:29.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just slow, you know, I mean, you know, I just, in 1967, I wanted it to all happen overnight.
[04:11:30.230 --> 04:11:38.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I figured, uh, we all saw the light and, and that illumination would, uh, would change everything overnight.
[04:11:38.490 --> 04:11:40.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and really that illumination is still there.
[04:11:40.910 --> 04:11:43.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just diffuse, you know, it's the same amount of light.
[04:11:43.730 --> 04:11:47.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just where it was blindingly bright to a few of us.
[04:11:47.350 --> 04:11:48.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's now something that everybody experiences.
[04:11:49.850 --> 04:11:51.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: I want to give a little pitch here.
[04:11:51.390 --> 04:11:55.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: As it happens, most of our show is devoted to Merle Saunders.
[04:11:56.210 --> 04:11:56.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Really?
[04:11:56.870 --> 04:12:02.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Which we interviewed, uh, last week and his blues from the rainforest, which we'll be playing, uh, shortly.
[04:12:03.270 --> 04:12:03.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Great.
[04:12:04.250 --> 04:12:05.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, great.
[04:12:05.510 --> 04:12:06.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wish he were actually there.
[04:12:06.970 --> 04:12:08.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd have you tell him hello for me.
[04:12:08.970 --> 04:12:09.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:12:09.950 --> 04:12:12.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, so that's, that's my answer.
[04:12:12.370 --> 04:12:15.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's what I was looking for is that it's a question of consciousness.
[04:12:15.450 --> 04:12:15.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[04:12:16.170 --> 04:12:19.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, and actually that's been the Grateful Dead's position all along.
[04:12:19.770 --> 04:12:28.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we've never had a political position on anything because our, our attitude has always been, if you change consciousness, politics will take care of itself.
[04:12:29.250 --> 04:12:40.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, uh, or no politics experience recently, uh, uh, with the white house that, that indicated to us that, that even people on that level are starting to believe that.
[04:12:41.130 --> 04:12:41.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: So.
[04:12:41.970 --> 04:12:42.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:12:43.010 --> 04:12:43.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[04:12:43.750 --> 04:12:45.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, uh, I think we have to move along.
[04:12:46.190 --> 04:12:47.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's been a real pleasure talking to you.
[04:12:48.030 --> 04:12:49.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, well, it's been a pleasure talking to you too.
[04:12:49.710 --> 04:12:50.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Keep up the good work.
[04:12:50.630 --> 04:12:51.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do not hang up.
[04:12:52.270 --> 04:12:52.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[04:12:53.050 --> 04:12:53.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[04:12:53.510 --> 04:12:54.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: I won't hang up.
[04:12:54.570 --> 04:12:55.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[04:12:55.330 --> 04:13:00.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if you're ever in New York or if you ever feel like giving us a call, uh, please do.
[04:13:00.370 --> 04:13:03.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, if you feel like giving me a call, please do though.
[04:13:03.310 --> 04:13:08.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, call me before you go on the air by a few hours so that I get a phone call from you in the middle of the night.
[04:13:08.670 --> 04:13:09.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[04:13:09.370 --> 04:13:09.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Very good.
[04:13:10.690 --> 04:13:11.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[04:13:11.370 --> 04:13:11.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thank you.
[04:13:11.870 --> 04:13:12.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.