Off The Hook - 1991-01-03

[00:02.900 --> 00:05.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...following a report of a family argument.
[00:05.540 --> 00:11.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Initially, police said Mary Mitchell struck Officer Hurworth with a nightstick and threatened him with a knife.
[00:11.340 --> 00:15.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: But later, Police Commissioner Lee Brown said there was no evidence to support that claim.
[00:16.520 --> 00:19.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hurworth shot Mitchell fatally in the chest.
[00:19.460 --> 00:26.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: In announcing the indictment today, the Bronx District Attorney's Office called the shooting unjustified, but some are calling it murder.
[00:27.160 --> 00:31.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Roger Wareham is director of the Medgar Evers Center for Law and Social Justice.
[00:31.400 --> 00:39.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: The fact that they brought a manslaughter to indictment is really an insult to people's intelligence.
[00:40.500 --> 00:42.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it's an insult to the black community.
[00:42.780 --> 00:53.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's a comment on the District Attorney's view of the importance of black life, which is ironic, since the Bronx District Attorney is black.
[00:54.060 --> 00:58.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're saying you think that if Mary Mitchell had been white, that there could be a murderer indictment?
[00:59.820 --> 01:03.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think that had Mary Mitchell been white, she would still be alive.
[01:05.320 --> 01:15.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: Certainly, had Mary Mitchell been white, and had the police officer been black, so let's say we reverse the situation, there would be a... there would have been an indictment.
[01:15.920 --> 01:19.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: But had she been white, I don't think she would have been shot in the first place.
[01:19.260 --> 01:27.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Officer Herworth was released on his own recognizance today, after the DA's unsuccessful request that bail be set at $25,000.
[01:27.820 --> 01:33.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: If convicted of the manslaughter charge, he would face a maximum sentence of 5 to 15 years in jail.
[01:34.080 --> 01:38.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: But Wareham says the indictment is more an attempt to appease the community than to serve justice.
[01:39.280 --> 01:42.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: He says if Johnson had wanted a murder indictment, he could have gotten it.
[01:42.880 --> 01:54.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was the chief judge of the state of New York who said that the grand jury is basically an instrument of the prosecutor, and that a prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if he so wished.
[01:54.660 --> 02:09.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: And so the fact that this grand jury came down with a manslaughter-to-indictment, in my view, is a reflection of what it was the district attorney wanted, because the grand jury basically functions on the information that's presented to it by the district attorney.
[02:09.480 --> 02:19.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's enough evidence, I believe, to warrant a higher degree of felony indictment, and that the district attorney needs to go back to the grand jury and present that.
[02:19.640 --> 02:25.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Whether that will happen, Wareham says, depends on how hard the district attorney is pushed by public outcry about the case.
[02:26.240 --> 02:29.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: For WBAI News, I'm Julie Cohen.
[02:29.980 --> 02:35.680]  [SPEAKER_28]: Death, destruction, and tragedy could well be the outcome of a city decision to save money.
[02:35.680 --> 02:37.880]  [SPEAKER_28]: This according to the Firefighters' Union.
[02:38.280 --> 02:42.340]  [SPEAKER_28]: They say a little girl may have died unnecessarily just last night in a fire.
[02:42.780 --> 02:47.640]  [SPEAKER_28]: This morning, the fire union denounced the city's budget cutters for putting dollars before lives.
[02:47.920 --> 02:49.140]  [SPEAKER_28]: Nina Biddle reports.
[02:50.000 --> 02:58.840]  [SPEAKER_29]: City Hall has abrogated its public safety obligation, according to James Boyle, president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, or UFA.
[02:58.840 --> 03:12.900]  [SPEAKER_29]: At a press conference this morning, Boyle and others stressed the need for awareness of the process of decimation that is taking place within the city's fire service, while the city has just ended its deadliest year in fire-related deaths.
[03:13.720 --> 03:18.260]  [SPEAKER_29]: Engine Company 17 has been protecting the Lower East Side for 125 years.
[03:18.760 --> 03:23.640]  [SPEAKER_29]: Located on Pitt Street at Delancey, it is the first of several companies to be cut this year.
[03:24.480 --> 03:28.300]  [SPEAKER_29]: UFA spokesperson Michael Carter explains what the cuts will mean.
[03:28.900 --> 03:35.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Almost all the firehouses in Manhattan are what we call double houses, where you have an engine and a ladder company in one station.
[03:35.320 --> 03:44.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: They respond in tandem, and when they get to the scene of a fire, basically the engine company stretches hose line, the ladder company begins rescue operations.
[03:44.740 --> 03:50.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: The situation we're going to be faced with on Pitt Street is a ladder company now is going to be going out by itself.
[03:50.960 --> 04:00.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: When they have a fire that is going to require rescue, in the past they've had an engine company there to basically position a line between the fire and the victim.
[04:00.940 --> 04:04.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: The ladder company now that's on Pitt Street doesn't have that option anymore.
[04:05.240 --> 04:12.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what we feel is the firefighters there are going to be gambling with the fire, and it's certainly going to lead to tragedy.
[04:13.160 --> 04:20.000]  [SPEAKER_29]: The city says other companies will fill the void left by closing Engine Company 17, but Carter is skeptical.
[04:21.180 --> 04:23.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: The hose is going to have to come from neighboring companies.
[04:24.360 --> 04:34.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: The department basically justifies this by coming up with a model, and they basically crunch numbers, and they determine what they think the time delay is going to be.
[04:35.000 --> 04:43.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just want to point out that their numbers, in my opinion, are not realistic, and that they're basically done at night when there's no traffic.
[04:43.260 --> 04:46.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: And as we all know, traffic in New York City is getting worse, certainly not better.
[04:46.380 --> 04:51.240]  [SPEAKER_29]: Last night may have provided just the tragic example firefighters are dreading.
[04:51.440 --> 05:04.340]  [SPEAKER_29]: A fire broke out in an apartment in Harlem, killing one girl and leaving her grandmother in serious condition, while their local engine company, Engine Company 47, located two blocks away, was in the Bronx helping another company.
[05:04.860 --> 05:07.560]  [SPEAKER_29]: Again, UFA spokesperson Michael Carter.
[05:07.560 --> 05:15.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Whenever you take a company out of its response pattern, now you're relying on the outlying companies making it in there.
[05:15.580 --> 05:19.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: What you had last night was a 47 engine was relocated to the Bronx.
[05:19.240 --> 05:21.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: That left a gap in fire protection.
[05:21.480 --> 05:31.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, when the alarm came in, in my opinion, and I've looked at the times, you had at least a minute more before our presence was felt at that fire.
[05:32.240 --> 05:36.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, the victims, the three-year-old and her grandmother, were both found unconscious.
[05:37.220 --> 05:39.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: One was resuscitated, one wasn't.
[05:39.340 --> 05:43.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: What that means to me is that these people were teetering on the verge of life and death.
[05:44.080 --> 05:48.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: I say 30 seconds to a minute would absolutely have made a difference in this point.
[05:48.500 --> 05:57.960]  [SPEAKER_29]: The Firefighters Union is worried that if such an incident can occur while an engine company is away from its post for two and a half hours, what will happen when that company no longer exists?
[05:58.420 --> 06:08.880]  [SPEAKER_29]: Other companies being closed today are the Marine Company 2, based on the Hudson River at the foot of Bloomfield Street in Manhattan, and Engine Company 294 in Richmond Hill, Queens.
[06:09.340 --> 06:16.060]  [SPEAKER_29]: They are the first to be disbanded since Engine Company 232 in Brooklyn was shut down in January of 1988.
[06:16.860 --> 06:20.340]  [SPEAKER_29]: The city currently has about 250 fire companies.
[06:20.780 --> 06:28.460]  [SPEAKER_29]: Six more companies are targeted for closure later this year, with the possibility of the elimination of another 40 or so in 1992.
[06:29.020 --> 06:37.780]  [SPEAKER_29]: The union also says firefighting has become more difficult in the past year, with the reduction from five to four firefighters in all fire trucks.
[06:38.460 --> 06:43.860]  [SPEAKER_29]: UFA spokesperson Carter says overall morale among firefighters is extremely low.
[06:43.860 --> 06:52.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right now, basically, the city administration has sent the message to the firefighters that fire protection is not a priority in this city.
[06:52.360 --> 06:58.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: The firefighters kind of look themselves in the mirror in the morning and say, hey, if they don't care, why should I care?
[06:58.700 --> 07:05.740]  [SPEAKER_29]: The mayor's office referred all calls to the city fire department, which did not return repeated WBAI calls.
[07:06.310 --> 07:12.100]  [SPEAKER_29]: The Uniformed Firefighters Association plans to continue protesting as other companies are cut.
[07:12.360 --> 07:25.300]  [SPEAKER_29]: While the city claims it saves about $1 million per year per company, the UFA says the preservation of life is government's responsibility, and that everything else, including bond ratings, must come second.
[07:26.200 --> 07:28.700]  [SPEAKER_29]: For WBAI News, I'm Nina Biddle.
[07:29.680 --> 07:39.960]  [SPEAKER_28]: And finally, from Washington, the only socialist in Congress spent much of his first day on the job conferring with liberal lawmakers on how to keep the United States from going to war with Iraq.
[07:40.440 --> 07:51.360]  [SPEAKER_28]: Representative Bernard Saunders, who ran as an independent in winning Vermont's only House seat, missed most of a reception held in his tiny office after he was sworn into the 102nd Congress.
[07:51.360 --> 07:56.520]  [SPEAKER_28]: He left the celebration to confer with Democrats on ways to avert a U.S.
[07:56.620 --> 07:58.340]  [SPEAKER_28]: offensive against Iraqi forces.
[07:59.040 --> 08:06.040]  [SPEAKER_28]: Saunders, who was born in Brooklyn, worked as a carpenter and documentary filmmaker before serving eight years as mayor of Burlington, Vermont.
[08:06.400 --> 08:16.800]  [SPEAKER_28]: The self-proclaimed socialist was rejected for membership in the Democratic Caucus, but Democratic leaders have assured Saunders he will be treated fairly when committee assignments are made.
[08:23.510 --> 08:27.630]  [SPEAKER_28]: And that's some of the news for Thursday, January 3rd, 1991.
[08:28.330 --> 08:30.630]  [SPEAKER_28]: The news was engineered by Anthony Sloan.
[08:30.790 --> 08:35.410]  [SPEAKER_28]: It was produced with Nina Biddle, Julie Cohen, Amy Goodman, and Alan Lipke.
[08:35.730 --> 08:42.150]  [SPEAKER_28]: I'm Jenny, born in New York with Don Rush in Washington for the WBAI listener-sponsored news.
[08:50.810 --> 08:54.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: And this is WBAI in New York.
[08:54.530 --> 08:58.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: Stay tuned for a special wartime edition of Investigations.
[09:01.110 --> 09:09.010]  [SPEAKER_32]: Let's you and I resolve now that we will persevere in this effort until every American soldier is home from the Persian Gulf.
[09:11.050 --> 09:20.190]  [SPEAKER_30]: On Sunday, January 13th, at 6 p.m., WBAI will broadcast a live teach-in sponsored by the Campaign for Peace in the Middle East.
[09:20.350 --> 09:26.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: On Saturday, January 19th, we will join thousands of people from across the country in Washington, D.C.
[09:26.650 --> 09:30.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: as they march to the White House to show their opposition to war in the Gulf.
[09:30.950 --> 09:33.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our live coverage begins at 12 noon.
[09:33.850 --> 09:42.250]  [SPEAKER_30]: Then on Saturday, January 26th, Pacifica Radio will go to the nation's capital yet again and cover another anti-war march and rally.
[09:42.570 --> 09:50.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tune in to WBAI 99.5 FM for the latest on the crisis and the growing national opposition to the U.S.
[09:50.730 --> 09:51.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: presence in the Gulf.
[09:52.650 --> 09:56.430]  [SPEAKER_31]: WBAI Pacifica Radio, committed to peace for 30 years.
[10:05.090 --> 10:07.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: And may we live to see 31.
[10:07.470 --> 10:08.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[10:08.230 --> 10:12.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Andrew Phillips, and this is Investigations.
[10:13.610 --> 10:25.530]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we're going to be doing a little bit of investigating tonight and also receiving feedback, as we always do from our listeners, on what could be an upcoming catastrophe.
[10:25.530 --> 10:27.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I'm sure you all know what we're referring to.
[10:28.490 --> 10:36.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's now being called in circles War Day, Tuesday, January 15th, 1991.
[10:37.150 --> 10:52.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not the day that everybody expects expects a war to start, but the day when everybody knows that a certain deadline will be passed and lots of stubborn people will resolutely proclaim various things.
[10:53.430 --> 10:56.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: And God only knows what we're going to get ourselves involved in.
[10:57.970 --> 11:01.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're going to try and speak with actual soldiers over there.
[11:02.150 --> 11:04.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: I say try because it's not easy.
[11:04.070 --> 11:08.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: We've managed to obtain a phone number, but no guarantees there.
[11:08.650 --> 11:13.470]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we're going to look at just where all of this is going to be leading us.
[11:14.790 --> 11:15.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: Some interesting things.
[11:16.110 --> 11:22.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, this is the first potential war that we've had an advance promotion for.
[11:22.450 --> 11:24.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, we have a date for this war.
[11:24.710 --> 11:28.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: This one's going to start on a certain day and all the networks are getting their acts together.
[11:29.230 --> 11:32.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: We know January 15th is the time that we all have to be ready.
[11:32.790 --> 11:34.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, Vietnam wasn't that courteous.
[11:34.610 --> 11:37.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: We didn't know exactly when things were going to happen.
[11:38.050 --> 11:41.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: And of course, we don't know exactly when things are going to happen here.
[11:43.130 --> 11:45.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: But it seems to be a bit of a show.
[11:46.010 --> 11:48.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: A bit of a show for a lot of people.
[11:50.410 --> 11:51.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: Folks, war is not entertainment.
[11:52.750 --> 11:55.530]  [SPEAKER_20]: War is sudden horror.
[12:27.860 --> 12:32.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Jesus, Jesus, what's it all?
[13:19.260 --> 13:23.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sweetheart, sweetheart, I'm fast asleep.
[13:27.050 --> 13:32.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the only time that I can do.
[13:35.350 --> 13:46.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And there is something that I've not a moment and The memory is too beautiful.
[13:47.210 --> 13:49.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You will stand the light of day.
[14:09.810 --> 14:12.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the body is
[15:21.980 --> 15:27.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: floating down through the clouds.
[15:29.800 --> 15:33.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Memories come rushing up to meet me now.
[15:34.480 --> 15:40.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: But in the space between the heavens and the corners.
[15:40.140 --> 15:42.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm an awesome father for you.
[15:45.500 --> 15:47.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm a friend.
[15:58.230 --> 15:59.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Goodbye Max.
[16:01.850 --> 16:03.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Goodbye Mark.
[16:05.350 --> 16:10.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: After the service, when you're walking slowly to the car.
[16:11.690 --> 16:18.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the air shines in the cold November air.
[16:18.960 --> 16:21.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: You hear the tone bell.
[16:21.580 --> 16:25.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: And touch the silk in the other hand.
[16:26.520 --> 16:32.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: As the teardrops rise to meet the comfort of the band.
[16:42.550 --> 16:46.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: You take the thrill of your hand.
[16:49.790 --> 16:51.490]  And hold on!
[17:46.990 --> 17:48.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: A place to stay.
[17:54.630 --> 17:59.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Somewhere old heroes shuffle safely down the street.
[17:59.410 --> 18:02.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Where you can speak out loud.
[18:03.170 --> 18:05.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: About your doubts and fears.
[18:06.470 --> 18:07.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what's more.
[18:08.850 --> 18:10.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: No one ever disappears.
[18:10.650 --> 18:12.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: You never ever stand an issue.
[18:12.970 --> 18:14.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Kicking in your door.
[18:15.850 --> 18:18.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can relax.
[18:18.850 --> 18:20.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: On both sides.
[18:21.010 --> 18:23.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: The tracks and the yaks.
[18:23.750 --> 18:25.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't blow holes.
[18:26.230 --> 18:29.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: In bands made by remote control.
[18:29.410 --> 18:31.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And everyone.
[18:32.350 --> 18:34.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And everyone recalls to the glaciers.
[18:37.600 --> 18:38.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And everyone.
[18:38.100 --> 18:38.100]  And drawing anyone to theảo.
[18:38.100 --> 18:41.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: And no one kills the children anymore.
[18:45.200 --> 18:45.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Listen.
[18:45.660 --> 18:47.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: No one kills the children anymore.
[19:57.470 --> 20:07.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, we certainly cannot write off his final scene, or anyone else's final scene for that matter.
[20:09.610 --> 20:17.690]  [SPEAKER_20]: All the people that have died in the past for ridiculous reasons, reasons that we don't even remember anymore.
[20:18.610 --> 20:29.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, sure, there are just causes to fight and die for, but you have to think about it very carefully.
[20:30.010 --> 20:34.570]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, life is kind of an important thing to gamble with.
[20:35.950 --> 20:38.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we have 500,000 lives over there.
[20:38.930 --> 20:45.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I like to think of... I don't like to think of them this way, but I mean, I like to draw this analogy.
[20:46.690 --> 20:48.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: You talk about hostages.
[20:48.810 --> 20:59.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: How do you think you would feel being a member of the armed forces stationed over there in the desert and saying to yourself, you know, I've had just about enough of this.
[20:59.950 --> 21:02.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: We haven't even started shooting at each other yet, and already I'm miserable.
[21:03.930 --> 21:13.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: I just want to come home and be with my family and loved ones and relax in our safe suburban homes.
[21:14.690 --> 21:15.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you can't do that.
[21:15.850 --> 21:17.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can't do that when you're in the armed forces.
[21:18.950 --> 21:22.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: You are, for all intents and purposes, a hostage.
[21:22.670 --> 21:25.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: A hostage by your own actions, but a hostage all the same.
[21:26.710 --> 21:39.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I know a lot of these people that are over there now never thought, never in their wildest dreams, and despite words coming out over airwaves here at WBAI, never actually thought it could happen to them.
[21:39.770 --> 21:43.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's happened to a lot of people just like you and me.
[21:45.650 --> 21:49.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: People who never thought they would be thrown into the middle of war.
[21:50.510 --> 22:05.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's no war yet, but to hear all the stubborn leaders of various countries, particularly this one, to hear them speak, you would think that it's a foregone conclusion.
[22:07.450 --> 22:09.290]  [SPEAKER_20]: Editorial in the New York Times today.
[22:10.070 --> 22:12.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: Where is Congress on the Gulf?
[22:12.510 --> 22:13.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: Interesting points raised.
[22:14.510 --> 22:20.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: Will Congress debate, and actually, I guess I should say yesterday's times, as it's just become Friday.
[22:21.010 --> 22:25.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Will Congress debate and vote on President Bush's war policy in the Persian Gulf?
[22:26.050 --> 22:27.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: Will Mr. Bush ask it too?
[22:28.630 --> 22:34.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: These questions belong at the top of the agenda when congressional leaders meet with the president.
[22:34.910 --> 22:36.470]  [SPEAKER_20]: On Thursday, actually, that occurred.
[22:37.190 --> 22:41.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: Until now, the Congress has shirked its constitutional duty to debate a declaration of war.
[22:42.610 --> 22:50.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: This week, some members intend to introduce a resolution to allow six months more for economic sanctions on Iraq and diplomacy to work.
[22:50.630 --> 22:55.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: But congressional leaders want to dodge the issue by putting off a vote.
[22:55.430 --> 22:57.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's unconscionable.
[22:58.030 --> 23:09.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: While hundreds of thousands of young Americans gird for battle in the deserts of Arabia, their elected representatives can't summon up the courage to confront their responsibilities at home.
[23:09.810 --> 23:17.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, perhaps they're scared of being thought of as unpatriotic or going against the president.
[23:18.510 --> 23:24.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, damn it, that's not only our right, it's our obligation if we feel that in our hearts.
[23:25.530 --> 23:30.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: Continuing with the editorial, the leaders' reason for their silence won't wash.
[23:31.230 --> 23:35.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: That a debate could be divisive, easing the pressure on Saddam Hussein.
[23:35.610 --> 23:39.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: Debate is not divisive unless the policy being debated is.
[23:39.850 --> 23:43.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: Better to know that now before Americans are called upon to die for it.
[23:43.970 --> 23:47.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: That Mr. Bush's brinkmanship is debatable is no secret.
[23:48.190 --> 23:53.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: Debate over the wisdom of war is raging everywhere in America except where it's supposed to, in Congress.
[23:56.230 --> 24:13.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: During Vietnam, when presidents took it upon themselves to wage war, Congress thought it necessary to enact the War Powers Act, really a war responsibility act, forcing the president and Congress to face up to a war decision in full public view.
[24:14.170 --> 24:18.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: But Mr. Bush shied away from invoking the act, asserting that U.S.
[24:18.770 --> 24:21.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: troops are in no imminent danger of hostilities.
[24:22.650 --> 24:29.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: All those Iraqi troops over there in Kuwait, their chemical weapons, pay them no mind.
[24:30.990 --> 24:40.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: Closing its eyes, Congress accepted his claim, then left town just as he put aside desert shield and picked up desert sword.
[24:42.670 --> 24:47.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now Congress is back, but its leaders still duck a debate.
[24:48.710 --> 24:52.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: Take Lee Hamilton, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, for example.
[24:53.190 --> 24:59.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: In one breath, he cogently argues against a war anytime soon.
[25:00.190 --> 25:16.910]  [SPEAKER_20]: He says, so long as there is a reasonable opportunity that the present strategy of the threat of the use of force, the economic sanctions and the diplomatic activity, will get Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, then I think you ought to stick with it and not go to war.
[25:18.670 --> 25:21.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Rather a long way of saying that we should stick with the sanctions.
[25:23.510 --> 25:35.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, in the next breath, he opposes a vote now to stay Mr. Bush's hand, saying, I think the name of the game at the moment is to ratchet up the pressure on Saddam Hussein in every way that we can.
[25:36.490 --> 25:43.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: You do not want to put a resolution or a declaration on the floor of the House or the Senate because that will send a signal of divisiveness.
[25:45.110 --> 25:47.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh boy, the number of times I have heard that argument.
[25:48.790 --> 26:04.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: First of all, first of all, Mr. Hamilton, and all those others out there, do you think Saddam Hussein is capable of picking up a copy of the New York Times, getting a copy over there, you know, in Baghdad?
[26:04.270 --> 26:06.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm sure they've got the same little blue machines on the street there.
[26:08.850 --> 26:16.470]  [SPEAKER_20]: And he can read this editorial and he can see that since we're debating whether or not to debate, that therefore it must be a divisive issue.
[26:16.930 --> 26:25.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: So if we debate or not debate, it's kind of a relative issue at this point because he already knows that we're debating whether or not to debate.
[26:26.370 --> 26:29.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: So obviously we are not all of one mind.
[26:30.190 --> 26:38.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: And anyone who has any understanding of this country knows that we don't often think alike.
[26:38.650 --> 26:40.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's always divisiveness.
[26:40.530 --> 26:42.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's healthy to discuss these things.
[26:42.490 --> 26:44.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: And isn't that what we're supposed to be fighting for?
[26:44.850 --> 26:55.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: The fact that we're allowed to do this, that we're allowed to express ourselves and debate things, debate important things, not just trivial things.
[26:58.270 --> 27:00.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: Out to lunch, these folks are sometimes.
[27:00.850 --> 27:03.010]  [SPEAKER_20]: Anyway, getting back to the editorial.
[27:05.510 --> 27:13.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: By this tortured logic, the need to maintain a credible threat of war would mean that the time will never come for Congress to vote.
[27:14.790 --> 27:19.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: The leadership's position would be more understandable if there had been a behind-the-scenes deal.
[27:19.950 --> 27:30.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: The rumor around Washington was that in return for unfettered authority to threaten war, Mr. Bush had pledged not to wage war without Congressional approval.
[27:31.010 --> 27:36.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: Last weekend, the House Armed Services Committee Chairman Les Aspin scotched that talk.
[27:36.690 --> 27:41.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: The administration has not in any time, any forum ever committed to that.
[27:42.170 --> 27:50.410]  [SPEAKER_20]: A deferred debate on the declaration of war invites divisiveness at the worst possible time, after Mr. Bush takes the country to war.
[27:51.110 --> 27:54.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: Mr. Bush's brinkmanship is running out of time to show results.
[27:54.770 --> 28:03.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: If Congress prefers sanctions and diplomacy to an early war, why not vote to give them a reasonable chance to work?
[28:05.170 --> 28:21.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: Maybe we can put a, you know, a little addendum in there saying, George Bush, we believe that you're, you know, as masculine as you can possibly be at your age, and you're not a wimp, not a wimp at all, you're a, you know, strong, strong-willed guy, you know?
[28:22.130 --> 28:23.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think that's what this is all about, really.
[28:23.990 --> 28:27.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I've never seen somebody have so many, uh, uh, ultimatums.
[28:28.310 --> 28:33.010]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm not saying that, uh, what Saddam Hussein's doing over there is right, but why is it?
[28:33.730 --> 28:38.710]  [SPEAKER_20]: Why is it that this has turned into a, a George Bush versus Saddam Hussein kind of a thing?
[28:38.830 --> 28:39.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: It doesn't make sense to me.
[28:40.910 --> 28:42.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, they invaded another country.
[28:43.790 --> 28:45.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's not our country, or maybe it is our country.
[28:45.930 --> 28:47.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, maybe we own Kuwait.
[28:48.390 --> 28:50.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: It sure seems like we own Kuwait the way we're acting.
[28:53.330 --> 28:56.570]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'd also like answers to a couple other questions while I'm on the subject here.
[28:57.770 --> 28:58.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Sanctions, for instance, huh?
[28:59.490 --> 29:01.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're all big on sanctions all of a sudden.
[29:01.290 --> 29:04.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: Why is it sanctions could never work in South Africa?
[29:04.890 --> 29:11.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: Why is it that we never wanted to, uh, quote unquote, hurt the people that we were trying to help?
[29:13.410 --> 29:13.910]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know?
[29:14.090 --> 29:18.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: But all of a sudden, when, uh, Iraq invades Kuwait, well, you gotta use sanctions.
[29:19.830 --> 29:21.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, what about the people there?
[29:21.490 --> 29:22.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: Do we care about the people there?
[29:26.730 --> 29:29.710]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, another question I might as well ask while I'm rolling here.
[29:30.590 --> 29:31.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: What about other countries, huh?
[29:32.050 --> 29:33.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: What about other countries like, uh, Tibet?
[29:34.150 --> 29:35.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, that's not a country anymore.
[29:35.270 --> 29:36.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, it was taken over by the Chinese.
[29:37.730 --> 29:41.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, uh, we don't really care about the Tibetans, do we?
[29:42.630 --> 29:45.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: Or the Namibians?
[29:46.950 --> 29:50.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: Or any one of a whole host of other countries where these things happen.
[29:53.470 --> 30:01.470]  [SPEAKER_20]: If we know how to stick our noses out of something, I don't understand why we stick our noses into something like this.
[30:01.470 --> 30:03.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's not about democracy, it's about oil.
[30:04.650 --> 30:08.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I'd really like to know if there's anyone out there that doesn't believe that.
[30:08.590 --> 30:14.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: The question, I guess, is, is oil worth fighting and dying for?
[30:16.010 --> 30:34.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: And another question, perhaps, is, have our armed forces become nothing more than a traveling band of mercenaries looking to extinguish flames of various sorts wherever they wind up going.
[30:48.530 --> 30:55.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't start the talking, I could talk all night.
[30:56.070 --> 31:02.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: My mind goes sleepwalking, while I'm putting the world to write.
[31:02.690 --> 31:08.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Calgary is information, have you got yourself an occupation?
[31:08.810 --> 31:11.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oliver's always here to stay.
[31:12.250 --> 31:15.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oliver's always on their way.
[31:29.060 --> 31:32.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was a checkpoint, Charlie.
[31:32.960 --> 31:39.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: We didn't crack a smile, but it's no laughing parted.
[31:39.720 --> 31:42.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: When you've been on the murder mile.
[31:43.140 --> 31:45.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Only takes one itchy trigger.
[31:46.140 --> 31:49.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: One more widow, one less white nigger.
[31:49.200 --> 31:52.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oliver's always here to stay.
[31:52.860 --> 31:54.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oliver's always on their way.
[32:10.020 --> 32:12.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hong Kong is up for grabs.
[32:13.200 --> 32:15.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: London is full of abs.
[32:16.700 --> 32:19.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: We could be in Palestine.
[32:20.040 --> 32:22.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Overrun by the Chinese land.
[32:22.940 --> 32:26.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: With the fires from the mercy of the Thames in the town.
[32:28.340 --> 32:31.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: But there's no danger.
[32:31.040 --> 32:35.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a professional career.
[32:35.640 --> 32:38.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Though it could be arranged.
[32:38.420 --> 32:40.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: But just the waiting list
[32:45.710 --> 32:47.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: could send you to jail.
[32:47.890 --> 32:48.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's back.
[32:51.650 --> 32:54.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oliver's always here to stay.
[32:55.270 --> 32:58.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oliver's always on their way.
[33:29.420 --> 33:33.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's Elvis Costello from the Armed Forces record.
[33:33.100 --> 33:34.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: What a magnificent record that is.
[33:35.120 --> 33:37.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: If you want to get it, get the English version, not the American version.
[33:38.500 --> 33:41.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's got a better mix of songs, I think.
[33:42.220 --> 33:48.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: And on top of the program we heard from Pink Floyd with The Hero's Return and The Gunner's Dream.
[33:49.520 --> 33:52.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Off a very fine album called The Final Cut.
[33:54.280 --> 33:56.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it keeps going on, folks.
[33:56.200 --> 33:57.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: It just keeps going on.
[33:57.400 --> 33:59.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, World War I...
[33:59.480 --> 34:02.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: I can't say I remember World War I, but I've read about it.
[34:03.380 --> 34:07.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it started over a most ridiculous premise.
[34:10.180 --> 34:13.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it just got worse and worse and worse.
[34:13.540 --> 34:25.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, of course, World War I led us into World War II, which was probably the biggest disaster ever that mankind was responsible for.
[34:26.040 --> 34:30.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right now, the whole situation over in the Persian Gulf looks kind of silly, you know.
[34:31.020 --> 34:42.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: You've got Saddam Hussein strutting his stuff, you know, prancing around, invading other countries, and not having much support at all from the rest of the world.
[34:42.960 --> 34:45.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, all the superpowers are against him.
[34:46.920 --> 34:50.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Most of the other countries of the world are against him.
[34:51.360 --> 34:53.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: So how can he possibly succeed?
[34:53.080 --> 34:57.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, he has a very formidable military presence.
[34:59.520 --> 35:02.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we've had our hand in building that up.
[35:02.320 --> 35:09.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: We've had our hand in providing Saddam with much of his know-how, much of his equipment.
[35:10.220 --> 35:11.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the Soviets have as well.
[35:12.940 --> 35:15.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I'm sure many other countries.
[35:17.320 --> 35:22.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: So he has the ability to start something that can get very, very nasty.
[35:22.280 --> 35:30.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: And who knows what will happen as people start dying, as bombs start going off, as cities start being destroyed.
[35:31.140 --> 35:36.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: As we see the effects of chemical warfare, something that we've never really seen before.
[35:37.220 --> 35:40.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: We chose to ignore it when it was going on only a couple of years ago.
[35:42.520 --> 35:44.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: It didn't involve American lives.
[35:44.800 --> 35:46.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: It wasn't important.
[35:48.140 --> 35:50.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: The madness intensifies.
[35:50.760 --> 36:04.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: As NATO announced on January 2nd, that it would send three squadrons of German, Italian, and Belgian jet fighters to Turkey to strengthen its border with Iraq in case a war breaks out.
[36:04.620 --> 36:05.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Just in case.
[36:06.040 --> 36:10.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: The move was strenuously endorsed by the United States.
[36:12.160 --> 36:31.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: The action was significant for Germany, because what was West Germany has never before deployed military forces outside its borders and had not sent any forces to the Persian Gulf because of constitutional restrictions against its military forces being sent outside the NATO area.
[36:32.520 --> 36:34.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's a brand new beginning.
[36:35.880 --> 36:50.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: The deployment of a squadron of 18 Alpha jets was justified by the government of Chancellor Helmut Kohl, because Turkey is a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and Germany is obliged to come to its defense, as are all other NATO members.
[36:51.840 --> 36:59.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: The opposition Social Democrats have threatened to try to block the move within Parliament, saying it violates the Constitution.
[37:00.900 --> 37:13.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Except for the participation of East German troops in the invasion of Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968, no German forces have been involved in military action outside German borders since World War II.
[37:14.320 --> 37:24.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: The East German Army has been disbanded as part of the unification process and has been absorbed by the former West German Army.
[37:25.600 --> 37:35.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: The military move taken at the request of Turkey comes at a time of increasing speculation about a possible European initiative aimed at resolving the Gulf crisis.
[37:35.920 --> 37:50.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: A senior French politician with close ties to President Francois Mitterrand flew to Baghdad for talks with Iraqi authorities before a meeting of European community foreign ministers scheduled for later today, Friday.
[37:53.840 --> 37:56.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's all keep our fingers crossed.
[37:57.440 --> 38:01.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: I know people in the news media want some action.
[38:01.800 --> 38:09.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: They want to be able to make all these millions of dollars they've spent going over to the Persian Gulf.
[38:09.780 --> 38:10.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: They want to make it all pay off.
[38:12.280 --> 38:15.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's something in a lot of us.
[38:15.180 --> 38:19.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's a sense that we want something exciting to happen, you know?
[38:20.400 --> 38:22.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Turn on the radio and wonder what's going to be happening next.
[38:23.040 --> 38:26.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: But there's a downside to all that, folks.
[38:26.200 --> 38:27.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: A very big downside.
[38:28.100 --> 38:31.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's the horror of war.
[38:31.700 --> 38:36.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And this is potentially a very horrible war.
[38:39.140 --> 38:52.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Speaking of the press, something else in today's New York Times, Thursday's New York Times, about the requirements for press coverage in Saudi Arabia.
[38:52.300 --> 38:53.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: You have to pass a physical.
[38:54.780 --> 38:55.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's pretty incredible.
[38:55.980 --> 39:00.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: You have to pass a physical to cover what's going on over there.
[39:03.520 --> 39:15.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: Worried that too many reporters are too far out of shape to cover a war, Pentagon officials have imposed a physical fitness test on journalists who wish to be sent out with American troops if there is battle with Iraq.
[39:16.760 --> 39:29.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: The test, which some journalists say has frightened them more than Saddam Hussein ever did, requires the reporters to meet the standards the military sets for its own men and women for sit-ups, push-ups, and a mile and a half run.
[39:34.980 --> 39:37.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: So, let's take a look at these requirements here.
[39:37.200 --> 39:37.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh my goodness.
[39:38.580 --> 39:52.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, if you're 27 to 31, I don't know why they don't have anybody below 27, and you're a man, you have to do 42 sit-ups in 2 minutes.
[39:52.740 --> 40:03.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: 42 sit-ups in 2 minutes, or you cannot cover a story for whatever newspaper, magazine, or electronic media that you work for.
[40:04.180 --> 40:13.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: So, I guess that means Philip Shannon of the New York Times is able to do, well, depending on how old he is, if he's 27 to 31, he's able to do 42 in 2 minutes.
[40:14.200 --> 40:17.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: 32 to 36, 38 in 2 minutes.
[40:18.300 --> 40:21.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: And 42 and over, 29 in 2 minutes.
[40:23.460 --> 40:26.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: 27-year-olds must do 38 push-ups in 2 minutes.
[40:27.820 --> 40:30.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: 42 and over, must do 26 in 2 minutes.
[40:30.460 --> 40:32.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: And 1 and a half mile run.
[40:33.780 --> 40:42.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: There are lots of people that couldn't do a 1 and a half mile run, but they insist that if you're 20 to 29, you have to do it in 13 minutes and 45 seconds.
[40:42.040 --> 40:45.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: If you're 50 and over, you have to do it in 17 minutes.
[40:46.500 --> 40:53.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the requirements for women are slightly greater than that.
[40:54.940 --> 40:58.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Meaning, more time is allowed and fewer sit-ups and push-ups are allowed.
[40:59.820 --> 41:01.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, wow, look at this.
[41:01.140 --> 41:01.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: Look at this.
[41:02.160 --> 41:02.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Push-ups.
[41:03.560 --> 41:04.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Drastic difference.
[41:04.420 --> 41:06.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I guess there's some sort of physiological reason for this.
[41:07.540 --> 41:10.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: If you're 27 to 31, you have to do 38 push-ups in 2 minutes.
[41:10.700 --> 41:11.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: We mentioned that.
[41:11.260 --> 41:13.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: But if you're a woman, you only have to do 15.
[41:14.340 --> 41:15.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Less than half.
[41:16.740 --> 41:20.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: And 42 and over, 26 for males, 12 for females.
[41:22.420 --> 41:28.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's the only part of the physical where there's that much of a discrepancy.
[41:29.920 --> 41:41.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Anyway, Edith Letterer of the Associated Press, a London-based correspondent who covered the Vietnam War in 1972 and 73, said I was very apprehensive.
[41:41.220 --> 41:42.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm a swimmer, not a runner.
[41:42.500 --> 41:45.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think I found some muscles that I didn't even know existed.
[41:46.100 --> 41:49.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Ms. Letterer took the test, I guess, two days ago.
[41:49.960 --> 41:54.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: The January weather in the Saudi desert was good for exercise, reasonably cool and dry.
[41:55.380 --> 41:56.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And she passed.
[41:56.940 --> 42:06.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was very proud of myself, she said, noting that while she did finish last in the women's run, I ran it all the way and didn't have to walk like some of the others.
[42:08.760 --> 42:12.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: The passing standards are broken down between men and women and by age.
[42:13.640 --> 42:23.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: The testing began several days ago at a luxury hotel in this eastern Saudi city of Dharan, where a road behind the swimming pool was used as a running track.
[42:24.480 --> 42:29.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Of the dozens of journalists tested so far, only a handful have failed, all of them men.
[42:29.000 --> 42:31.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: And make-up tests are scheduled.
[42:32.100 --> 42:44.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: The Pentagon has imposed other requirements on journalists who wish to be part of the so-called combat pool, a rotating group of journalists whose reports from the front lines with American troops would be shared with their colleagues in Saudi Arabia.
[42:44.900 --> 42:53.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: They must also attend a lecture on how to defend against chemical weapons and to be outfitted for a gas mask.
[42:55.760 --> 43:00.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, as promised, let's give it a shot here.
[43:00.320 --> 43:08.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's try to call overseas to Saudi Arabia and actually speak to somebody.
[43:09.200 --> 43:11.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: We'll definitely be speaking to somebody involved in the military.
[43:12.940 --> 43:16.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: But what we're going to try to do is get connected to...
[43:17.150 --> 43:18.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I'm not quite sure how it's set up.
[43:18.760 --> 43:24.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: I imagine a payphone rings somewhere in the middle of the desert and all these soldiers gather around, but I'm sure it's not like that at all.
[43:26.120 --> 43:29.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're going to attempt to get such a scene.
[43:29.160 --> 43:41.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if anyone out there knows of a number, knows of a way of getting a hold of a particular battalion or group of some sort, please phone in.
[43:41.780 --> 43:44.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: 212-279-3400 with that information.
[43:45.940 --> 43:55.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, let's get an operator on the line and see just what we can find out.
[43:57.540 --> 43:59.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Telephone, can you tell me to help you?
[43:59.440 --> 44:01.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, I need long distance, please.
[44:09.980 --> 44:10.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[44:11.140 --> 44:11.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[44:19.300 --> 44:20.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hey, Ginger, can I help you?
[44:21.320 --> 44:22.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, hello, operator.
[44:22.660 --> 44:26.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're having some difficulty dialing direct to Saudi Arabia.
[44:26.280 --> 44:27.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was wondering if you could help us.
[44:27.720 --> 44:28.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you have a number?
[44:28.900 --> 44:31.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, country code 966.
[44:31.960 --> 44:33.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: City code 3.
[44:33.740 --> 44:37.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: The number is 899-1119.
[44:40.540 --> 44:41.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[44:41.320 --> 44:41.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hold on.
[44:41.840 --> 44:42.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[44:48.680 --> 44:49.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: Line is busy.
[44:50.780 --> 44:51.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Line's busy?
[44:51.860 --> 44:52.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: The line is busy.
[44:53.040 --> 44:54.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, thank you very much.
[44:54.360 --> 44:54.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: You're welcome.
[44:55.700 --> 45:01.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: When the line is busy, folks, the only thing you can do is start over and try it one more time.
[45:04.520 --> 45:06.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Actually, in Saudi Arabia right now...
[45:08.140 --> 45:08.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's about 8 hours ahead.
[45:08.640 --> 45:09.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, come, Mr. Gibbs, operator.
[45:09.900 --> 45:10.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: May I help you?
[45:10.880 --> 45:11.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, hi.
[45:11.600 --> 45:12.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Can I have long distance, please?
[45:13.020 --> 45:13.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: One moment, sir.
[45:13.860 --> 45:14.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[45:16.220 --> 45:22.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: In Saudi Arabia right now, I believe it's 8 hours ahead of us, so that would make it 823 in the morning.
[45:22.820 --> 45:25.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[45:26.460 --> 45:27.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[45:27.920 --> 45:29.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: She sounded a bit slower than she did before.
[45:35.560 --> 45:36.680]  [SPEAKER_33]: Morning, AT&T.
[45:37.460 --> 45:38.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, hi.
[45:38.380 --> 45:40.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're having difficulty getting through to Saudi Arabia.
[45:40.620 --> 45:42.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was wondering if you might be able to place the call for us.
[45:42.780 --> 45:44.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[45:44.380 --> 45:51.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's country code 966, city code 3, and the number is 899-1119.
[45:55.340 --> 45:56.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[45:58.840 --> 45:59.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Still busy.
[46:01.780 --> 46:02.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, thank you, anyway.
[46:05.240 --> 46:05.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: All right.
[46:06.760 --> 46:08.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's the trouble you run into.
[46:08.660 --> 46:12.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're getting through, but they're busy over there doing something.
[46:12.240 --> 46:19.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was able to make that phone ring only a few hours ago, so we'll give it a try as the show progresses.
[46:20.860 --> 46:43.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Again, our phone number is 212-279-3400, and I suppose we might as well take a few calls, see what's on people's minds as far as the upcoming war, if there is an upcoming war, where it's leading, if we're taking the right path, and just what kind of path we should be taking.
[46:47.810 --> 46:50.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: But first, a reminder.
[46:53.880 --> 47:12.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Aren't we sending a terrible signal to perhaps further similar problems throughout the world that while you go ahead in and you do all these things to people, you use chemical weapons, you gouge their eyes, you rape their women, you take their babies off of the life support systems in hospitals and drain the blood out of them,
[47:12.520 --> 47:17.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: and then, yes, we should sit down and negotiate with you because you have some valid points.
[47:17.840 --> 47:19.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, isn't that sending a bad signal?
[47:19.600 --> 47:23.480]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, if the alternative is war, is that right?
[47:24.640 --> 47:27.660]  [SPEAKER_26]: What message are we sending to the world if we have this war?
[47:28.540 --> 47:31.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Countdown in the Gulf, War or Peace?
[47:31.380 --> 47:34.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tune in on Sunday, January 13th, beginning at 1 p.m.
[47:34.980 --> 47:37.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: for an all-day special on the Persian Gulf crisis.
[47:37.900 --> 47:48.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Featuring in-studio discussions and live updates from the region, Countdown in the Gulf will culminate in a live three-hour teach-in from the New Yorican Poets Cafe, beginning at 6 p.m.
[47:49.120 --> 47:51.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Countdown in the Gulf, War or Peace?
[47:52.180 --> 47:55.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sunday, January 13th, from 1 to 10 p.m.
[47:55.620 --> 47:59.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: on listener-supported WBAI 99.5 FM.
[48:04.240 --> 48:06.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: That sounds like they're playing the Guns of Brixton in the background.
[48:06.780 --> 48:07.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: How nice.
[48:07.400 --> 48:10.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: Our phone number again is 212-279-3400.
[48:10.560 --> 48:11.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's see who's out there.
[48:11.780 --> 48:12.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[48:12.600 --> 48:13.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good morning.
[48:14.340 --> 48:19.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: I've just been listening to everything and it's just amazing.
[48:20.140 --> 48:26.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: They're currently spending about $40 million to a day.
[48:26.240 --> 48:27.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: A day, yes.
[48:27.200 --> 48:27.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: A day.
[48:28.120 --> 48:32.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, you estimate that's about close to maybe $1 billion to $2 billion a month.
[48:34.700 --> 48:35.500]  And, um...
[48:35.500 --> 48:36.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Could you just hold on for one second?
[48:36.640 --> 48:37.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: I just have to turn down my radio.
[48:37.900 --> 48:38.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[48:38.500 --> 48:39.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's, uh...
[48:39.200 --> 48:40.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's advisable for anybody calling in.
[48:40.820 --> 48:41.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: Turn down your radio.
[48:41.660 --> 48:42.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Or you will be confused.
[48:44.720 --> 48:46.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: And always keep your radio near your phone.
[48:47.860 --> 48:49.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Or there'll be long pauses on the air.
[48:51.580 --> 48:51.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Sorry.
[48:52.160 --> 48:52.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[48:52.420 --> 48:54.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's just, um...
[48:54.980 --> 48:59.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: Just the waste in terms of humanity, in terms of finance.
[48:59.780 --> 49:04.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's an incredible waste, especially in wake of some of the things we've seen here in New York.
[49:04.560 --> 49:05.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, uh...
[49:05.380 --> 49:07.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Last week, the subway fire, for instance.
[49:08.380 --> 49:08.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh...
[49:08.740 --> 49:13.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: People died because the system was not maintained, because there was not enough money to maintain it.
[49:13.960 --> 49:20.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: They're talking about cutting subway service, cutting train service on the commuter lines, cutting all kinds of social programs.
[49:21.020 --> 49:26.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: The money is not there, but yet the money is there to maintain this incredibly expensive venture.
[49:26.940 --> 49:41.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, I remember when Daniel Ortega came to the South Bronx and he was talking about at that point the United States had just, okay, $270 million to kill 500,000 Nicaraguans that we don't even know.
[49:43.340 --> 49:44.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, um...
[49:45.020 --> 49:49.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, he was standing in the middle of all this place that looked like bombed out Europe.
[49:50.360 --> 49:55.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: And we were spending all this time and all this energy trying to take him off the planet.
[49:55.460 --> 50:01.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: And all he wanted was his people have a right to have a right to something.
[50:03.160 --> 50:07.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I guess that's because our priorities are wrong.
[50:07.600 --> 50:11.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're willing to spend all this money to go fight for oil.
[50:11.340 --> 50:23.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: But when it comes to, like, the Palestinians on the West Bank or the South Africans in South Africa, there were sanctions passed against South Africa.
[50:24.100 --> 50:25.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: You don't see...
[50:25.160 --> 50:31.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, you have to pull teeth to get Americans to try to support these sanctions at the same time.
[50:31.540 --> 50:37.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, I mean, just in terms of oil alone, I mean, our farmers are going broke.
[50:37.540 --> 50:38.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Our farmers are closing.
[50:39.020 --> 50:40.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, I think four...
[50:40.140 --> 50:43.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, ten farms closed two weeks ago in Madison, Wisconsin.
[50:43.640 --> 50:45.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Our retailers are going broke, too.
[50:45.380 --> 50:46.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Retailers are going...
[50:46.040 --> 50:49.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: We produce the most corn and grain than anywhere else in the world.
[50:50.000 --> 50:50.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: In the world.
[50:50.980 --> 50:53.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: We can make fuel from that corn and grain.
[50:54.060 --> 50:55.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: They would burn clean and more efficiently.
[50:55.920 --> 51:02.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: If we had cars that went 35 or 50 miles to the gallon, we wouldn't need a drop of foreign oil.
[51:02.440 --> 51:08.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Or even if we wanted to go to the root of foreign oil, Mexico has more oil than Saudi Arabia and Kuwait combined.
[51:09.020 --> 51:09.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know?
[51:09.920 --> 51:15.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: But it's in our vested interest to bankrupt Mexico and keep the Saudis going.
[51:16.940 --> 51:17.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: Or...
[51:17.520 --> 51:23.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: I believe the total amount that we obtained from both Iraq and Kuwait combined was something like 5%.
[51:25.420 --> 51:30.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, you know, in a way, I'm also angry at the American voter or the person that doesn't vote.
[51:31.060 --> 51:41.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because the person that doesn't vote or the voter that's uneducated, in a way, we kind of deserve what's happening.
[51:41.740 --> 51:48.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: We deserve what's happening in this respect because of the choices that people make or don't make at the voting booth.
[51:49.020 --> 51:53.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because people don't take the time to find out what's going on.
[51:53.620 --> 52:01.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, we feel very safe in our little worlds here, you know, watching TV and all that and commuting back and forth to work.
[52:01.820 --> 52:02.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: This is far, far away.
[52:03.040 --> 52:14.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: But the thing that's going to drive it home is the fact that these are our friends, our neighbors, people just like us that are over there now that are going to meet horrible, grisly ends, unless we do something about it now.
[52:14.360 --> 52:18.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't want to see anyone meet a horrible, grisly end.
[52:18.280 --> 52:18.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[52:18.580 --> 52:20.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm saying even people that are gung-ho for this.
[52:20.940 --> 52:25.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't want to see them die any more than I want to see someone who doesn't want to be there die.
[52:25.700 --> 52:31.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: But unfortunately, it's going to take something like a horrible, grisly end to make people wake up.
[52:32.120 --> 52:33.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: When oil goes...
[52:34.160 --> 52:37.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: They estimate that oil will go up to $100 a barrel.
[52:37.160 --> 52:40.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: That means a gallon of gas will cost $3 a gallon.
[52:41.200 --> 52:42.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Not to mention heating oil.
[52:42.980 --> 52:48.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is it going to take something like that for an American to get environmentally conscious?
[52:49.140 --> 53:01.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is it going to take something like that for an average American to start voting according to their conscience as opposed to their greed?
[53:02.180 --> 53:06.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is it going to have to take a tragedy to make us politically aware?
[53:07.040 --> 53:08.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: It seems to always take a tragedy.
[53:08.800 --> 53:13.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: It seems to always take a disaster of some sort to wake people and wake governments up.
[53:13.520 --> 53:32.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: What worries me about this is it's very easy to get this thing started but like a screaming locomotive going down a hill it's hard as hell to stop and once you start a war it's not something you can just turn off you know look how long Vietnam took to stop after it was decided that it was going to in fact stop
[53:44.660 --> 53:57.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we also said, what's going to happen to all of that extra Defense Department money that's not going to be needed anymore?
[53:57.820 --> 53:59.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: How are we possibly going to find another enemy?
[54:02.700 --> 54:12.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: And you can't think that if over at least a generation or two generations that you're developing all this anger, all this hatred, it's got to go someplace.
[54:12.800 --> 54:14.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's got to go somewhere.
[54:14.720 --> 54:15.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know?
[54:15.380 --> 54:18.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you don't look at it, if you don't deal with it, it's got to go somewhere.
[54:19.780 --> 54:22.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it's like anybody else.
[54:22.600 --> 54:32.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's like a person has all this anger if sometimes in an extreme case either they take it out on their family by beating their children or their spouses or they take it out on themselves inwardly.
[54:32.700 --> 54:35.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: By taking drugs or abusing themselves from chemicals.
[54:35.660 --> 54:36.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's the same thing.
[54:37.000 --> 54:37.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: The same thing.
[54:38.080 --> 54:39.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: In a national conscience.
[54:39.680 --> 54:40.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know?
[54:40.320 --> 54:42.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're just looking for another enemy.
[54:42.260 --> 54:46.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: And if it doesn't go out, the anger is already tearing us up inside.
[54:46.700 --> 54:47.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Racism is on the rise.
[54:48.060 --> 54:49.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Homelessness is on the rise, unbelievably.
[54:50.580 --> 54:55.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: The governor of Rhode Island closed down all their banking institutions.
[54:55.940 --> 55:01.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because they're... I mean, I'm... These banks were used to wash drug money.
[55:01.340 --> 55:08.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: That was coming into this... The drug money that was used to finance wars of people some group somewhere didn't like.
[55:10.100 --> 55:10.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know?
[55:11.460 --> 55:17.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: I hope... I hope that this takes something... In a way, I don't want to see anybody die.
[55:17.260 --> 55:20.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't want to see anybody... I'm 28 years old.
[55:21.160 --> 55:23.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: What's this stopping them from calling me to go over there?
[55:24.680 --> 55:27.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, if you do, make sure you can do 42 sit-ups in two minutes.
[55:29.300 --> 55:30.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks for calling, sir.
[55:30.600 --> 55:31.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're welcome.
[55:31.340 --> 55:31.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Alright.
[55:32.060 --> 55:33.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Our phone number is...
[55:33.300 --> 55:35.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: 212-279-3400.
[55:36.100 --> 55:37.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Lots of good points raised in that call.
[55:38.340 --> 55:39.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh...
[55:39.040 --> 55:41.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: We can sort of see how it's all connected together, you know?
[55:43.100 --> 55:44.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh...
[55:44.000 --> 55:47.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: I know that everybody agrees as to how it's connected together.
[55:49.720 --> 55:50.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: But...
[55:50.200 --> 55:51.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: There is a lot at work here.
[55:53.780 --> 55:56.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know how many people actually want to see us go to war.
[55:56.800 --> 55:57.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I'm...
[55:57.640 --> 55:58.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm...
[55:58.500 --> 56:00.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Admittedly impressed by...
[56:00.720 --> 56:03.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: The way the American public is dealing with this.
[56:03.580 --> 56:06.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Because I don't see the gung-ho reaction that, uh...
[56:06.920 --> 56:08.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: You saw it ten years ago with...
[56:08.920 --> 56:09.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: With the Iranians.
[56:10.080 --> 56:10.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: Where...
[56:10.600 --> 56:14.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Lots of people appeared in pickup trucks with bumper stickers that said, Nuke Iran.
[56:14.940 --> 56:17.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't see the same thing here because, uh...
[56:17.520 --> 56:19.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: This is so much closer to home.
[56:19.740 --> 56:21.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, we see it as actually happening.
[56:22.240 --> 56:26.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I really don't know very many people that actually want to see an all-out war.
[56:26.920 --> 56:28.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: Because this could lead to so many bad things.
[56:29.620 --> 56:31.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: I've seen it said in the New York Times, actually.
[56:31.580 --> 56:32.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: That, uh...
[56:32.960 --> 56:40.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: A scenario, a likely scenario, would be Iraq, um...
[56:40.960 --> 56:42.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Spraying chemical weapons all over Israel.
[56:43.220 --> 56:45.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Wiping out something like 95% of the population.
[56:45.720 --> 56:52.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the remaining 5% of the very angry Israeli population responding with nuclear weapons.
[56:52.520 --> 56:57.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: And in that region of the world, things will just get out of hand so incredibly fast.
[56:58.860 --> 57:03.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we'll all be sucked in, like, so much water in a bathtub.
[57:03.100 --> 57:04.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: How's that for an analogy?
[57:04.600 --> 57:05.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[57:06.440 --> 57:07.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hello?
[57:07.500 --> 57:08.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, hello.
[57:08.360 --> 57:08.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[57:09.140 --> 57:09.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh...
[57:09.660 --> 57:10.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: The point is this.
[57:11.080 --> 57:11.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh...
[57:11.500 --> 57:13.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Happy 1984 plus 7.
[57:14.040 --> 57:14.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay?
[57:14.940 --> 57:16.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, the point is, um...
[57:16.760 --> 57:20.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: We think of this war as something different.
[57:20.180 --> 57:22.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, we're always in a war.
[57:22.520 --> 57:24.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Life and death go on constantly.
[57:24.920 --> 57:31.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: So to judge it by this idea that, well, what would happen if I was over there, I might get killed.
[57:31.360 --> 57:44.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or, as Michio Kaku's program, uh, just Wednesday evening, uh, we were talking about, uh, a caller called in and said, What about poison warfare, gas warfare, and germ warfare right here in the United States?
[57:44.880 --> 57:53.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: If some Iraqi came here and did some, uh, you know, putting, uh, chemicals here and, uh, biological, uh, reforms here.
[57:53.240 --> 57:55.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, we could devastate New York City or anywhere.
[57:56.040 --> 57:59.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: The point is, however, that people are fighting for their lives in hospitals.
[58:00.320 --> 58:02.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Famines go on throughout the world.
[58:02.440 --> 58:06.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, you know, you almost don't get them reported because, well, a person's dying.
[58:06.680 --> 58:10.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Little children are, you know, uh, getting emaciated in their mother's arms.
[58:10.800 --> 58:12.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know what I'm talking about.
[58:12.480 --> 58:17.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: National Geographic's got pictures of them and Life Magazine and Time and so on and so forth.
[58:17.420 --> 58:28.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, the problem is that, um, who knows, maybe in the future with this idea of George Bush's New World Order, we won't go into South Africa as, like, a peace force there.
[58:28.440 --> 58:33.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because, uh, I mean, it's not as if George Bush doesn't associate with, uh, Afro-American people.
[58:33.540 --> 58:34.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, what's his name?
[58:34.560 --> 58:36.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is, uh, head of, uh, military, right?
[58:37.000 --> 58:37.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[58:37.420 --> 58:39.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, the point is this.
[58:39.380 --> 58:41.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: We definitely need improvements here.
[58:41.900 --> 58:45.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: We definitely need, the whole world needs, uh, you know, we want to live in peace.
[58:45.680 --> 58:50.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's, uh, relatively speaking, it's a better state of, of life than other things.
[58:50.400 --> 58:54.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, the funny thing is, it's not funny, but I say it in a kind of ironical way.
[58:54.700 --> 58:59.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe Beckett might say it, or, uh, some of these other, uh, thinkering, uh, literary people.
[59:00.200 --> 59:04.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, our war is with God, because the whole thing has been going on from day one.
[59:04.460 --> 59:10.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, when, if we were expelled from paradise, the Garden of Eden, you know, the problem is humanity.
[59:11.140 --> 59:13.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: People, we don't treat each other just right.
[59:13.700 --> 59:14.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I could go on and on.
[59:15.140 --> 59:21.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, a chap, uh, who wrote for, um, Foreign Affairs magazine, uh, they have a little quote that they distributed.
[59:21.840 --> 59:25.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they say, uh, Saddam Hussein came out of a brittle land.
[59:25.520 --> 59:28.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the name, the name of the writer is Fouad Ajami.
[59:28.780 --> 59:43.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: He, he, Saddam Hussein came out of a brittle land, a frontier country between Persia and, uh, Arabia, with little claim to culture and books and grand ideas, uh, as compared with, uh, for instance, uh, Ayatollah Khomeini, who everybody despises here, you know,
[59:43.520 --> 59:47.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: when I say everybody, I mean, none, uh, his religion, his, uh, um.
[59:47.860 --> 59:57.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway, it goes on to say, uh, the new contender was a despot, a ruthless and skilled warden who had tamed his domain and turned it into a large prison.
[59:57.660 --> 59:59.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, we had the Iran-Contra thing.
[59:59.620 --> 01:00:01.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: So many things are going on that we don't even know.
[01:00:01.940 --> 01:00:09.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who the hell knows all the details that, that exist in the world that George Bush is even contending with that we don't even know?
[01:00:10.160 --> 01:00:26.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, the whole thing is such, it's, it's almost like life is some sort of a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, human comedy, uh, of, of, of tragedy, and, you know, um, uh, uh, uh, it's, uh, reminds me of Blade Runner, the movie, where these, uh, poor, um, um, um,
[01:00:26.140 --> 01:00:37.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: uh, androids come back and they're trying to get to God, who lives in this fantastic tall building, and, and, and they want to plead that he will, uh, figure or, uh, control so they can live longer.
[01:00:38.040 --> 01:00:38.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, let's...
[01:00:38.860 --> 01:00:43.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: We want to live because we like talking to our friends, listening to WBAI, and so forth.
[01:00:43.660 --> 01:00:43.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[01:00:44.060 --> 01:00:56.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, let's, let's, let's leave God out of it, because, uh, um, uh, this is, this is something involving humanity, involving each and every one of us, and if we look to God for the answers, we're going to miss what's right underneath our noses.
[01:00:57.120 --> 01:01:02.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, people find comfort in all kinds of things, but, uh, we have to start taking responsibility for our actions.
[01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:06.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Nobody is going to, uh, come out of the sky and, and, and save us.
[01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:10.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, and that's, uh, unfortunately what a lot of people seem to believe.
[01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:16.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: They seem to believe that, uh, it's all predestined and that, uh, certain things will, uh, just naturally take care of, uh, of themselves.
[01:01:17.340 --> 01:01:19.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: And Saddam Hussein will be struck down.
[01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:21.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you know, it's not that simple.
[01:01:21.740 --> 01:01:23.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's just not that simple.
[01:01:23.720 --> 01:01:29.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, we just have to take responsibility for the things that we do.
[01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:33.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that, that goes, uh, you know, on a national level, it goes on an individual level.
[01:01:34.860 --> 01:01:40.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: There is not one person listening to this radio program now that cannot make a difference if they choose to.
[01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:48.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: And whether or not you, uh, you choose to actually, you make a difference because if you decide not to do anything, that makes a difference too.
[01:01:49.140 --> 01:01:51.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: A caller before mentioned all the people that didn't vote.
[01:01:51.380 --> 01:02:01.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, if you're one of them, you may think you're not making a difference, but you are because by not participating, you're steering the ship in a certain direction.
[01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:04.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, it's a direction almost nobody wants to go.
[01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:04.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[01:02:06.100 --> 01:02:06.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello?
[01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:07.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:07.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:02:07.780 --> 01:02:08.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[01:02:08.100 --> 01:02:16.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, you touched on something briefly that I had been, uh, saying and talking to a couple of friends, uh, about a few weeks ago, and that is the wimp factor.
[01:02:17.120 --> 01:02:30.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Every time Bush, Bush's aides tell him that, uh, Mr. Bush, they're, they're calling you a wimp in the New York Times, people are going to needlessly and foolishly die because this man has to prove his manhood.
[01:02:30.200 --> 01:02:30.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, it's ridiculous.
[01:02:31.160 --> 01:02:38.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think we should put out in the press that Mr. Bush is a bad man, a really tough character.
[01:02:39.220 --> 01:02:40.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Nonsense wouldn't have to go on.
[01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:51.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I think it would be, it'd be incredible if, uh, I mean, already, uh, the Iraqi government, uh, said that Bush must've been drunk to think something, but if Saddam Hussein got a national TV and just said, Mr. Bush, you are a wimp.
[01:02:51.980 --> 01:02:54.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, he probably, he probably nuked the whole country if he did that.
[01:02:55.080 --> 01:02:55.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right away.
[01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:55.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right away.
[01:02:56.200 --> 01:02:57.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's, uh, that's the magic word.
[01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:03.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think, I think Time Magazine got it, you know, of, of George Bush.
[01:03:04.040 --> 01:03:04.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[01:03:04.780 --> 01:03:05.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, good night, yeah.
[01:03:05.680 --> 01:03:06.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks for calling.
[01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:06.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks.
[01:03:07.540 --> 01:03:09.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:20.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's, uh, let's give, uh, Saudi Arabia one more try and, uh, see if we can actually, oops, excuse me, see if we can, uh, get that phone to ring over there.
[01:03:20.600 --> 01:03:23.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hopefully, uh, it's not going to be off the hook all day long.
[01:03:23.700 --> 01:03:25.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's about 840 over there.
[01:03:25.720 --> 01:03:26.960]  [SPEAKER_22]: Your telephone, Ms. Smith, may I help you?
[01:03:27.100 --> 01:03:27.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, yes, hello.
[01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:28.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: We need long distance, please.
[01:03:29.500 --> 01:03:30.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: For which area, please?
[01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:32.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, this will be for Saudi Arabia.
[01:03:32.680 --> 01:03:33.020]  Thank you.
[01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:38.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[01:03:39.540 --> 01:03:40.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[01:03:40.340 --> 01:03:42.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Every time I hear that recording, it sounds slower.
[01:03:47.640 --> 01:03:48.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is AT&T.
[01:03:48.660 --> 01:03:49.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can we help you?
[01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:50.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, yes, hello, operator.
[01:03:50.660 --> 01:03:52.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're having difficulty getting through to Saudi Arabia.
[01:03:53.100 --> 01:03:54.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was wondering if you could place the call for us.
[01:03:55.540 --> 01:03:56.520]  Sir, what number, please?
[01:03:56.740 --> 01:04:05.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, it's country code 966, city code 3, and the number is 899-1119.
[01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:07.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you, Uncle.
[01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:08.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[01:04:08.680 --> 01:04:09.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're welcome.
[01:04:13.180 --> 01:04:13.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, dear.
[01:04:13.900 --> 01:04:14.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm getting busy on it now.
[01:04:15.020 --> 01:04:15.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's busy, huh?
[01:04:15.940 --> 01:04:16.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, thanks anyway.
[01:04:17.100 --> 01:04:17.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're welcome.
[01:04:18.540 --> 01:04:20.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's amazing how you can always tell a busy signal.
[01:04:21.100 --> 01:04:24.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: It has that repetitive sound to it no matter where you go.
[01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:24.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[01:04:25.820 --> 01:04:26.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's good morning, I should say.
[01:04:28.240 --> 01:04:28.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good evening.
[01:04:29.340 --> 01:04:29.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:30.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, hi.
[01:04:30.520 --> 01:04:40.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, the thing with last call about the God point, I think he was trying to say that the problem with the God thing is that a lot of people all think they've got, it's like they don't start with God on our side, like a lot of people think they've got God on their side.
[01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:46.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's the thing he was trying to say, not that we have to turn to God for an answer, but the problem is everybody thinks their God is right.
[01:04:46.900 --> 01:04:47.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[01:04:47.120 --> 01:04:52.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you know, it boils down to the same thing because, you know, dragging God into it in the first place, I think that's a mistake.
[01:04:52.680 --> 01:04:53.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, all right.
[01:04:53.700 --> 01:04:57.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: So then, here's an interesting anecdote.
[01:04:58.080 --> 01:05:03.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was on New Year's Eve, I was in a rock and roll bar, and they were singing Living in the USA.
[01:05:03.500 --> 01:05:04.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know that song?
[01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:05.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Living in the USA?
[01:05:05.900 --> 01:05:06.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Who does it?
[01:05:07.680 --> 01:05:08.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll stand around.
[01:05:08.580 --> 01:05:10.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm so glad I'm living in the USA.
[01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:10.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, right.
[01:05:10.560 --> 01:05:10.560]  Okay.
[01:05:10.680 --> 01:05:15.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anyway, so they're doing the song, they're dedicating it to the boys over you-know-where, they say.
[01:05:15.600 --> 01:05:15.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:22.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they go, and they say, like, the guitar says, on January 15th, we're going to, you know, bomb that blank brain.
[01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:27.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, that's just an anecdote, Tom, I'm putting out there as a vignette.
[01:05:27.220 --> 01:05:31.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was in a place where that was, the sentiment was extremely gung-ho, you know.
[01:05:32.180 --> 01:05:37.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, I would just like to say, when you're saying it, you're very impressed with people not being so gung-ho.
[01:05:38.060 --> 01:05:52.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And when you call us folks, and, you know, you're on the WBA, which has been like an anti-war station, and it's like, I don't know who you think you're talking to, but it's so incredibly patronizing and condescending that you think that we would not be anti-war,
[01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:59.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: that you're going to enlighten us, and that all your stuff with the telephone people, the way you're mean to the operators, as if they deserve this kind of abuse...
[01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:00.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: How am I mean to the operators?
[01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:01.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, I agree with you.
[01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:03.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: The big brother, the telephone company, has to be, you know...
[01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:04.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[01:06:05.020 --> 01:06:06.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: When am I mean to operators?
[01:06:06.220 --> 01:06:07.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm never mean to operators.
[01:06:07.200 --> 01:06:08.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, it's so sarcastic with these operators.
[01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:11.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Like, I thought, thank you, operator, and all this stuff like...
[01:06:11.560 --> 01:06:12.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I meant it.
[01:06:12.340 --> 01:06:13.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: I said thank you.
[01:06:13.460 --> 01:06:14.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: I meant it.
[01:06:14.160 --> 01:06:15.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I'm thanking them for...
[01:06:15.700 --> 01:06:16.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, come on, you meant it.
[01:06:17.060 --> 01:06:18.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, you're so full of anger.
[01:06:18.860 --> 01:06:23.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: But bigger than that, we, this audience here, it doesn't need to be condescended to by you.
[01:06:24.060 --> 01:06:24.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thank you very much.
[01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:33.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I always find it fascinating how people who can never listen to another side always feel they have to hang up before the other side responds.
[01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:41.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, folks, I'm sorry if I'm using condescending words by using the word folks and talking to operators.
[01:06:42.460 --> 01:06:44.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm not quite sure I understand any of that.
[01:06:44.660 --> 01:06:50.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: If someone else who's willing to stay on the line a little longer wants to explain it to me, feel free, please.
[01:06:51.220 --> 01:07:00.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: Boy, there's nothing worse than having sarcasm read into your remarks and you're not being sarcastic, and also having sarcasm missed when you are being sarcastic.
[01:07:00.560 --> 01:07:01.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Two worst things in the world.
[01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:09.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, this line has been ringing all night long, but it doesn't light up, so you're very lucky to be on the air.
[01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:09.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[01:07:09.780 --> 01:07:10.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:12.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, how are you there?
[01:07:12.500 --> 01:07:12.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[01:07:12.860 --> 01:07:13.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[01:07:13.580 --> 01:07:13.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[01:07:14.380 --> 01:07:15.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, yeah.
[01:07:16.520 --> 01:07:20.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, what I want to talk about was that we don't really need the oil.
[01:07:21.060 --> 01:07:22.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: I agree with that.
[01:07:22.640 --> 01:07:27.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because we have, um, they can make oil out of corn and, uh, hemp.
[01:07:27.720 --> 01:07:31.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: A lot of people don't know that they can make it out of hemp, um, because it's marijuana.
[01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:34.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: But what they can do is they can make, uh, oil out of hemp.
[01:07:34.540 --> 01:07:40.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: They can make paper, um, clothing, uh, canvas.
[01:07:40.900 --> 01:07:44.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, there's all kinds of alternative ways of, of, of making energy.
[01:07:44.740 --> 01:07:45.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[01:07:45.140 --> 01:07:48.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: But with, uh, um, hemp products, they won't, they won't, you know, legalize.
[01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:51.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: They can make, uh, paper also.
[01:07:52.180 --> 01:07:53.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they wouldn't have to cut down more trees.
[01:07:54.980 --> 01:07:59.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, it would be the most, it would, it would pretty much reverse all effects.
[01:08:00.140 --> 01:08:08.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, how would, how would you handle then what's going on in the, uh, in the Gulf if we had an adequate way of, um, of, uh, meeting our energy needs?
[01:08:08.940 --> 01:08:10.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, we could go home because we don't need to be there.
[01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:11.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[01:08:11.660 --> 01:08:15.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because, um, weight was a monarchy.
[01:08:16.320 --> 01:08:19.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was a dictatorship, as is Saudi Arabia.
[01:08:20.420 --> 01:08:22.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we're not protecting our own freedom.
[01:08:22.540 --> 01:08:25.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: The people there are probably just as well as Saddam Hussein.
[01:08:26.300 --> 01:08:29.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: You don't think it makes much of a difference, uh, who rules the country?
[01:08:29.080 --> 01:08:30.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's the same thing.
[01:08:30.700 --> 01:08:36.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And Saddam Hussein is their perfect leader because he's, he's their Islamic leader, their religious leader.
[01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:39.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: God is always, I mean, and Islam, God is very important.
[01:08:40.040 --> 01:08:42.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he's also their political leader.
[01:08:42.740 --> 01:08:53.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, I think on ABC News I saw, uh, Egyptians, Palestinians, and another group were all, uh, backing them.
[01:08:53.940 --> 01:08:54.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: They brought their armies.
[01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:57.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: It wasn't government, uh, organized.
[01:08:57.040 --> 01:09:01.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it was a, it was a, it was a fashion of, uh, the joint, his army.
[01:09:01.320 --> 01:09:07.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm, I'm curious how much of that is, uh, because they really back him and how much of that is because they just are against us.
[01:09:08.120 --> 01:09:10.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, against what we've been doing over there.
[01:09:10.100 --> 01:09:10.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Awesome.
[01:09:10.460 --> 01:09:12.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: But we put Saddam Hussein to power off him.
[01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:15.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, we certainly, we certainly, uh, helped him out.
[01:09:16.180 --> 01:09:17.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, we're not only some good guys.
[01:09:18.460 --> 01:09:21.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, I've, I've heard that said before quite a few times.
[01:09:21.740 --> 01:09:22.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Awesome.
[01:09:22.660 --> 01:09:24.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, I didn't think you were being sarcastic.
[01:09:25.080 --> 01:09:25.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, thanks.
[01:09:25.820 --> 01:09:26.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I mean it.
[01:09:26.780 --> 01:09:29.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I, I don't say thanks and be sarcastic about it.
[01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:34.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, you know, I, I try to, um, I, I try to say what's on my mind.
[01:09:34.280 --> 01:09:37.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if I want to insult somebody, I usually do a pretty good job of it.
[01:09:37.180 --> 01:09:37.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sure.
[01:09:37.420 --> 01:09:44.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, um, I think it would be pretty interesting if we could, uh, look into alternative, uh, energy because, uh, we definitely have the technology.
[01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:45.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: We can send people to the moon.
[01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:47.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: We can make a lot of deals for it.
[01:09:47.360 --> 01:09:54.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, you know, and I, I think we should, we should, uh, violently attack the next politician that says, uh, well, solar energy is a developing technology.
[01:09:54.480 --> 01:09:56.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, it's been a developing technology now for 10,000 years.
[01:09:57.300 --> 01:10:00.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's develop the damn thing already because it's obviously cheaper.
[01:10:00.340 --> 01:10:02.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's obviously unlimited and it's clean.
[01:10:02.580 --> 01:10:06.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I, I think that a lot of the oil companies pay to, uh, buy those people out.
[01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:10.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, I actually heard that they own a lot of the patents for those kind of things.
[01:10:11.040 --> 01:10:12.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, that would not surprise me at all either.
[01:10:13.120 --> 01:10:15.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, George Bush is an oil man from Texas.
[01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:19.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I'm sure he's got a lot of people to pay off and a lot of debts owed.
[01:10:20.040 --> 01:10:22.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, a lot of people don't want to hear that.
[01:10:22.980 --> 01:10:27.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: A lot of people want to, uh, say, well, that's just, you know, a conspiracy theory of some sort.
[01:10:27.500 --> 01:10:29.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Even though it's, it's probably true.
[01:10:29.380 --> 01:10:32.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think the reason is, is possibly the way it's presented.
[01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:47.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, if, um, if you can use facts and convincing arguments to show somebody that this is in fact true, I think in the end you will wind up convincing them rather than just say, oh, it's all, it's all corruption and it's, uh, you know, it's all evil at,
[01:10:47.680 --> 01:10:48.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: at the very core.
[01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:55.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I guess, you know, that kind of talk turns people off and, uh, you know, they label you something and then they don't listen to you anymore.
[01:10:55.940 --> 01:10:57.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: So that's, uh, that's what we got to be careful of.
[01:10:58.160 --> 01:10:59.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, uh, I, I agree.
[01:10:59.780 --> 01:11:00.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks very much for calling.
[01:11:00.760 --> 01:11:01.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: All right, thank you.
[01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:03.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's, uh, 1248.
[01:11:04.260 --> 01:11:05.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: The program is Investigations.
[01:11:05.740 --> 01:11:15.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Andrew Phillips who, uh, was called up to active service in case you didn't hear and he will be leaving Saudi Arabia tomorrow.
[01:11:18.240 --> 01:11:20.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'll let that one sit for a couple of seconds.
[01:11:20.220 --> 01:11:22.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, that's not true, but, uh, it could be.
[01:11:22.740 --> 01:11:27.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I don't think anybody here at WBAI has been called up, but, uh, imagine if the draft started again.
[01:11:27.740 --> 01:11:32.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Boy, you'd see some, uh, you'd see some, some flurrying around.
[01:11:32.740 --> 01:11:42.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: You'd see people, uh, start thinking, man, almost everybody I know who is of draft age has announced their intention to go to Canada and I just don't think that's going to work anymore.
[01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:47.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I just don't think they were, uh, they're going to have their doors wide open to us.
[01:11:48.220 --> 01:11:50.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: You're going to need better answers than that, folks.
[01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:51.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Whoops, I used that word again.
[01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:52.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Sorry.
[01:11:53.200 --> 01:11:53.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:11:54.180 --> 01:11:55.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: Yes, hello, good morning.
[01:11:56.020 --> 01:11:59.340]  [SPEAKER_27]: Um, I just had to ask a question.
[01:11:59.500 --> 01:12:05.760]  [SPEAKER_27]: Like, I'm, like, I'm an American and I have no vested interest in anything over there in the Middle East at all.
[01:12:06.360 --> 01:12:10.660]  [SPEAKER_27]: But, uh, I'm kind of aware of, uh, of, of, you know, somewhat of history.
[01:12:11.360 --> 01:12:16.680]  [SPEAKER_27]: And if it was required for negotiation is to put all the U.N.
[01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:27.640]  [SPEAKER_27]: resolutions that have been passed in that region for the past 50 years or so on the table and resolve them all, why is there a fear of that?
[01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:31.640]  [SPEAKER_27]: I mean, I, to me, that sounds reasonable because I know there are many problems.
[01:12:32.440 --> 01:12:34.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I, that's a very good question.
[01:12:34.440 --> 01:12:45.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, it reminds me of something also that happened, uh, recently where, uh, they were, they were using the prospect of a Mideast peace conference as kind of a threat.
[01:12:45.180 --> 01:12:58.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, uh, uh, Israel was, was very adamant about, uh, not wanting a Mideast peace conference and the United States was, uh, you know, was, uh, debating whether or not to, uh, you know, to insult Israel by voting for it.
[01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:01.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it's, you know, it's a, it's a peace conference for God's sake.
[01:13:01.280 --> 01:13:01.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: It means peace.
[01:13:02.020 --> 01:13:03.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's supposed to be something good.
[01:13:03.260 --> 01:13:04.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, it's like voting for life.
[01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:11.620]  [SPEAKER_27]: I'm saying, and I want to make myself clear, like, I'm aware of the atrocities committed by, uh, Saddam Hussein.
[01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:12.200]  [SPEAKER_27]: Right.
[01:13:12.380 --> 01:13:14.580]  [SPEAKER_27]: But, you know, he was caught in a corner.
[01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:19.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: And when he's, first thing he said, he wants to debate the issue on the UN floor.
[01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:21.280]  [SPEAKER_27]: I said, isn't this wonderful?
[01:13:21.860 --> 01:13:24.740]  [SPEAKER_27]: Isn't this a new way of approaching a situation like this?
[01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:26.540]  [SPEAKER_27]: Let's hear what the issues are.
[01:13:26.740 --> 01:13:27.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, when did he say that?
[01:13:28.260 --> 01:13:29.240]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, that was early on.
[01:13:29.440 --> 01:13:37.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: That was, uh, well, I think when the, you know, early, I think it was a month it was, it was back in, uh, either September or October.
[01:13:37.900 --> 01:13:38.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:13:38.280 --> 01:13:42.860]  [SPEAKER_27]: So that was turned out, that was considered ludicrous by the administration here.
[01:13:42.860 --> 01:13:45.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: What about before the actual invasion?
[01:13:45.320 --> 01:13:49.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, we saw this coming, you know, we saw the, uh, the conflicts between, uh, Kuwait and Iraq.
[01:13:49.980 --> 01:13:57.900]  [SPEAKER_27]: We knew the man had, uh, I mean, that the country, separated from the individual thing, the country had problems.
[01:13:58.080 --> 01:14:03.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: They knew that he had, uh, a large standard army and, uh, a sinking economy.
[01:14:03.620 --> 01:14:08.280]  [SPEAKER_27]: And, and, and people that understand these things know that he has one or two choices.
[01:14:08.280 --> 01:14:11.740]  [SPEAKER_27]: He has to pay his army if it's revolted and revolution or collapsed.
[01:14:12.180 --> 01:14:16.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, and he wanted to boost up the price of oil to do that.
[01:14:16.480 --> 01:14:28.080]  [SPEAKER_27]: But for some reason, uh, he felt, uh, was, uh, shown to him that Kuwait was, as he charged, that Kuwait was in some sort of, uh, collusion with the West to hold the price of oil down.
[01:14:28.080 --> 01:14:29.600]  [SPEAKER_27]: And all that was said.
[01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:31.460]  [SPEAKER_27]: I'm not saying nothing that wasn't on the news.
[01:14:31.620 --> 01:14:35.400]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, the regular, you know, uh, you know, Channel 2, Channel 4 news.
[01:14:35.540 --> 01:14:36.820]  [SPEAKER_27]: Early on, they reported all this.
[01:14:37.140 --> 01:14:38.360]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, as it was happening.
[01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:40.440]  [SPEAKER_27]: But then he invaded Kuwait in order to do that.
[01:14:40.740 --> 01:14:47.540]  [SPEAKER_27]: But once that was done, and the things that, that sound reasonable to me, because there are a lot of problems in the world.
[01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:53.360]  [SPEAKER_27]: I mean, I know Greece wants the return of their artifacts that were stolen in the 18th century.
[01:14:54.360 --> 01:15:02.240]  [SPEAKER_27]: Uh, Nigeria wants the artifacts that were, were stolen from them when the, you know, I'm talking about archaeological artifacts in the British Museum.
[01:15:02.540 --> 01:15:08.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: Uh, the, the Australians, the Aboriginal Indians want the return of the bones of their ancestors.
[01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:12.040]  [SPEAKER_27]: We have problems here with the American Indians that have to be resolved.
[01:15:12.580 --> 01:15:28.500]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, I, I initially, when this, if that approach could have been taken, I, I thought it would have been a kickoff to a large range of discussions to come to somehow, you know, some sort of world that, you know, that we all can live with, you know,
[01:15:28.540 --> 01:15:47.060]  [SPEAKER_27]: some sort of kinder, gentler world, maybe, you know, rather than, uh, this, this kind of belligerent type of, uh, of attitude that, so, we're going to deal with the Iraq weight in a narrow focus, not recognizing the, the past, uh, 150 years, uh, history that's going on in the area.
[01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:53.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: And, and, uh, the offer to say, well, let's just open it up and let's talk about all the U.N.
[01:15:53.360 --> 01:16:14.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: resolutions and let's see if, if, uh, when we have 300 or 400,000 troops over there, I mean, they, they could be used to take over the, the, the, a lot of territories that have been occupied and say, until we can resolve this, the U.N., you know, will control the,
[01:16:14.540 --> 01:16:21.460]  [SPEAKER_27]: the West Bank, you know, the, you know, I know a lot of Israelis might get upset about that, but, yes, let's, let's get the whole region on the table.
[01:16:21.700 --> 01:16:25.280]  [SPEAKER_27]: And if we can do that, then maybe we can get South Africa on the table.
[01:16:25.360 --> 01:16:32.400]  [SPEAKER_27]: Maybe we can get a lot of things on the table and maybe we can finally, finally get to some sort of, you know, planet that, that, that will work.
[01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:45.440]  [SPEAKER_27]: But this is a totally bad sign to me that this This new world order, you know, that is being talked about is, you know, is really a world conquest of some type.
[01:16:45.700 --> 01:16:50.700]  [SPEAKER_27]: And I think that the major push behind it is basically money.
[01:16:51.040 --> 01:16:57.700]  [SPEAKER_27]: And that's why there would never be... this would never have happened on behalf of the moneyless people of South Africa.
[01:16:58.540 --> 01:17:04.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Very often, you know, people come along and say, enough of this already.
[01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:11.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's just look at, you know, the simple conflict here and resolve, you know, this conflict.
[01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:13.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think that's what you're doing.
[01:17:13.200 --> 01:17:15.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's exactly the way I would approach the situation, too.
[01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:20.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's just, you know, put aside all this stupidity and just attack the problem.
[01:17:21.040 --> 01:17:26.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: It becomes so sideswiped in, you know, in all the headlines.
[01:17:27.220 --> 01:17:29.320]  [SPEAKER_27]: And we're not ignorant people.
[01:17:29.520 --> 01:17:31.200]  [SPEAKER_27]: I mean, we know these things.
[01:17:33.020 --> 01:17:35.960]  [SPEAKER_27]: The country isn't run by fools.
[01:17:36.160 --> 01:17:41.400]  [SPEAKER_27]: It's just that their objectives may not be, you know, aligned with what I have hoped they would have been.
[01:17:41.920 --> 01:17:46.180]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, they, you know, I'm sure they're aware of... we know, we learned from World War II.
[01:17:46.360 --> 01:17:57.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: We rebuilt Europe after World War II because it was said even then that World War II was a result of the repression imposed upon the defeated countries of World War I.
[01:17:57.300 --> 01:17:58.600]  [SPEAKER_27]: So, you know, they knew this.
[01:17:58.740 --> 01:17:59.780]  [SPEAKER_27]: It was written in history books.
[01:17:59.920 --> 01:18:07.400]  [SPEAKER_27]: So they said, well, rather than have, you know, let people suffer and another Hitler rise, they will alleviate the suffering.
[01:18:07.400 --> 01:18:11.860]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, so we know that these things, you know, we understand these things.
[01:18:12.100 --> 01:18:13.840]  [SPEAKER_27]: This is not no new knowledge.
[01:18:14.020 --> 01:18:19.740]  [SPEAKER_27]: We, you know, we can function as more intelligent, you know, people.
[01:18:19.940 --> 01:18:28.680]  [SPEAKER_27]: But it just seems that as a whole, I mean, we seem to be operating with the combined intelligence of a worm or something out there.
[01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:36.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, sometimes, you know, the intelligence of a worm is convenient to people that want to get their way.
[01:18:36.440 --> 01:18:36.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Exactly.
[01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:43.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's why you see people saying, we don't want to debate, you know, we don't want to have this brought up in Congress because it's going to bog things down.
[01:18:43.700 --> 01:18:45.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's going to send the wrong signals.
[01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: To me, I have no vested interest in anything over there.
[01:18:48.360 --> 01:18:49.560]  [SPEAKER_27]: I have no fear of a debate.
[01:18:50.020 --> 01:19:06.640]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, I think, you know, I have no fear that, you know, if it's, if we have enough strength that if it's, you know, totally against our interest, you know, as a nation, well, okay, we don't have to really go for it.
[01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:12.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: But let's leave, you know, we don't have to kill, you know, 300, 400,000 people, neither.
[01:19:12.680 --> 01:19:13.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Exactly.
[01:19:13.380 --> 01:19:14.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks very much for calling, sir.
[01:19:14.480 --> 01:19:14.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[01:19:15.020 --> 01:19:15.320]  [SPEAKER_27]: Good night.
[01:19:15.520 --> 01:19:15.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good night.
[01:19:16.520 --> 01:19:19.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[01:19:19.560 --> 01:19:30.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, please call in and speak out because, uh, as that last gentleman said, hundreds of thousands of lives are, are, uh, at stake here.
[01:19:30.860 --> 01:19:33.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: And not just American lives.
[01:19:34.040 --> 01:19:35.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Iraqi lives, too.
[01:19:35.140 --> 01:19:35.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: They count.
[01:19:36.540 --> 01:19:38.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, lives of all kinds count.
[01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:43.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was connected to, uh, an Iraqi operator.
[01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:46.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I was, I was nice to her, too, and not sarcastic.
[01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:55.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you could hear, you know, in the background, you could hear other operators, other Iraqi operators, and you heard laughing and giggling and, and things like that.
[01:19:55.260 --> 01:20:04.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you realize, you know, it's, it's, you know, technology is different, but, uh, you know, people think in a similar way.
[01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:10.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they laugh, and they laugh, and they cry, and they do all kinds of human things because they're human.
[01:20:10.620 --> 01:20:14.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it's so easy to, uh, to think of them as not being human.
[01:20:14.740 --> 01:20:27.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: One thing that I think technology is very capable of at this particular stage is, uh, conveying the, uh, humanity of a foreign land.
[01:20:27.340 --> 01:20:28.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the humanity of a war.
[01:20:29.340 --> 01:20:33.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: If there's anything that I think is good about the way, uh, there's been coverage.
[01:20:35.120 --> 01:20:37.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's seeing the actual faces.
[01:20:37.340 --> 01:20:40.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Seeing the names of the people who are over there.
[01:20:40.760 --> 01:20:43.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: And allowing us to realize that these are people.
[01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:45.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's not just a monolithic force.
[01:20:46.020 --> 01:20:46.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: They're individuals.
[01:20:47.980 --> 01:20:51.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, and they have, uh, their own particular way of looking at things.
[01:20:51.940 --> 01:20:53.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they don't all look at things in the same way.
[01:20:53.540 --> 01:20:57.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: From a military point of view, I guess that's not a, not a good way to present yourself.
[01:20:57.700 --> 01:21:00.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, uh, we're not in the military, are we?
[01:21:02.220 --> 01:21:02.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:21:03.660 --> 01:21:05.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, um, I just have a question.
[01:21:06.280 --> 01:21:09.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Like, I ask, like, so many people, and no one can answer.
[01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:09.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah?
[01:21:10.260 --> 01:21:13.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is, um, Kuwait a city or a country?
[01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:19.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, Kuwait is actually, uh, uh, Kuwait is a country, and Kuwait City is the capital of that country.
[01:21:19.100 --> 01:21:20.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's a very small country.
[01:21:20.940 --> 01:21:22.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, Kuwait, I don't believe, is the only city.
[01:21:23.540 --> 01:21:24.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, like New York, New York.
[01:21:24.940 --> 01:21:26.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, like we say New York, New York.
[01:21:26.400 --> 01:21:27.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's like Kuwait, Kuwait.
[01:21:27.640 --> 01:21:28.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you know what I mean?
[01:21:28.260 --> 01:21:30.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: Pretty much, except Kuwait is a lot smaller than that.
[01:21:30.680 --> 01:21:31.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: But it is a country.
[01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:32.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: It is a country, yes.
[01:21:32.940 --> 01:21:33.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: And a city, sort of.
[01:21:33.660 --> 01:21:37.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Of course, it's not a country right now, if you talk to Saddam Hussein, but, uh...
[01:21:37.580 --> 01:21:38.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: True, but...
[01:21:38.080 --> 01:21:40.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: In the eyes of the world, in the eyes of the world, it is a country, yes.
[01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:41.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, okay.
[01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:43.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: All right, does that answer your question?
[01:21:43.320 --> 01:21:43.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, it does.
[01:21:44.080 --> 01:21:44.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:45.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thank you.
[01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:49.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, she waited a long time to ask that question, because she was all the way down on the bottom there.
[01:21:49.700 --> 01:21:57.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, uh, yes, Kuwait is, uh, depending on who you talk to, it's either a country or a province of Iraq.
[01:22:02.710 --> 01:22:04.650]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's just about, uh, one o'clock.
[01:22:04.830 --> 01:22:06.530]  [SPEAKER_20]: We have Bob Fass coming in in half an hour.
[01:22:06.810 --> 01:22:11.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, we'll be taking some more phone calls right after this public service announcement.
[01:22:14.470 --> 01:22:18.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: From, uh, my favorite bunch of people, The Clash.
[01:22:19.770 --> 01:22:21.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: 1982, I believe.
[01:22:22.710 --> 01:22:25.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: Takes you back, but, uh, boy, it still makes sense.
[01:22:26.930 --> 01:22:30.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: The soldier boy fought, his soldiers pay a waste.
[01:22:53.810 --> 01:22:55.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: The soldier, you must not relent.
[01:22:55.990 --> 01:22:58.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: What are the neighbors and the puppets involved?
[01:22:59.790 --> 01:23:02.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: What are they saying in the fumbling bazaar?
[01:23:06.070 --> 01:23:09.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're tired of the tune, you must not relent.
[01:23:10.790 --> 01:23:14.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: A tempest drunk off, the bell in the tower there goes.
[01:23:14.350 --> 01:23:16.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Another boy brought, another in the hour.
[01:23:42.860 --> 01:23:45.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Guns, tapers, parole on the thrones.
[01:23:46.460 --> 01:23:49.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: No one mentions a neighboring war.
[01:23:50.100 --> 01:23:52.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: No one knows what they're fighting for.
[01:23:56.470 --> 01:24:00.130]  [SPEAKER_24]: We're tired of the tune, you must not be there.
[01:24:00.130 --> 01:24:11.410]  [SPEAKER_24]: There's this different kind of chemical system, 2,000 flushes, keeps the water crystal clear, keeps the balls warmly clean continuously for about four months, no rings, no sprays, no stains.
[01:24:11.410 --> 01:24:13.970]  [SPEAKER_24]: Just put the container in your tank and forget it.
[01:24:14.050 --> 01:24:20.470]  [SPEAKER_24]: Every time you flush, the chlorine crystals dissolve away, rusty, sure, beat-crushing.
[01:24:22.310 --> 01:24:26.270]  [SPEAKER_24]: The general foul to the problem every time.
[01:25:46.560 --> 01:25:49.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Charlie don't serve and we'll be sure.
[01:25:50.020 --> 01:25:53.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Charlie don't serve and we know that it ain't no way.
[01:25:53.820 --> 01:25:57.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Charlie don't serve for this man but the mom.
[01:25:57.440 --> 01:26:00.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Charlie's gonna be an eight-bomb star.
[01:26:00.500 --> 01:26:04.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everybody wants to rule the world.
[01:26:04.780 --> 01:26:08.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: It must be something we can get from the world.
[01:26:08.920 --> 01:26:11.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: The truth is we've never heard.
[01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:15.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Satellites will make space burn.
[01:26:15.920 --> 01:26:19.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've been told to keep the strangers out.
[01:26:19.840 --> 01:26:20.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: We don't like them.
[01:26:21.240 --> 01:26:22.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're starting to hang them down.
[01:26:23.260 --> 01:26:24.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: We don't like them.
[01:26:24.980 --> 01:26:26.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, the terror plays
[01:26:41.790 --> 01:26:44.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: on the beat and make our stars.
[01:26:44.210 --> 01:26:48.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: The strange and beautiful powers must be over.
[01:26:48.530 --> 01:26:51.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: So many armies come, be the judge.
[01:26:52.310 --> 01:26:58.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a single rock, and we'll roll over Those of them cut the door.
[01:26:59.320 --> 01:27:02.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's one way street and a one horse down.
[01:27:03.320 --> 01:27:06.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: One way people, starting to drag around.
[01:27:06.940 --> 01:27:09.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can lie, put them,
[01:27:46.370 --> 01:27:51.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: shot it on the beat, Oh you gotta burn, shot it on the beat.
[01:29:23.500 --> 01:29:24.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can laugh.
[01:29:25.420 --> 01:29:26.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: Put them down.
[01:29:27.740 --> 01:29:30.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Those one-way people are gonna mow you down.
[01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:38.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's the clash with Charlie Don't Surf off the Sandinista triple album set.
[01:29:39.460 --> 01:29:41.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Still a classic in my view.
[01:29:41.960 --> 01:29:49.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: And there's one great quote that goes not only for that song, but for the entire album, I think.
[01:29:51.080 --> 01:29:52.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's this.
[01:29:52.540 --> 01:29:56.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: So many armies can't free the world.
[01:29:56.380 --> 01:29:57.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: How can they?
[01:29:58.300 --> 01:30:07.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: How can so much military might, military madness poised on the edge of complete and utter annihilation?
[01:30:07.580 --> 01:30:12.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: How can it prove to be freedom for anybody?
[01:30:14.260 --> 01:30:15.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Even us.
[01:30:17.560 --> 01:30:20.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, our number is 212-279-3400.
[01:30:21.500 --> 01:30:22.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're taking phone calls.
[01:30:23.040 --> 01:30:28.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: And again, let me repeat the plea.
[01:30:28.240 --> 01:30:38.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: If anybody out there has a particular phone number over there in Saudi Arabia of a military base or something like that, we'd sure like to speak to somebody.
[01:30:38.920 --> 01:30:40.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's hard to get through, though.
[01:30:40.400 --> 01:30:40.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: It really is.
[01:30:41.120 --> 01:30:45.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we're calling in the middle of their morning.
[01:30:45.240 --> 01:30:48.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: I guess they're doing their jumping jacks or whatever it is they do at this time of day.
[01:30:51.400 --> 01:30:56.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: And probably talking on the phone quite a bit, too, obviously, as we've been trying to get through and getting a busy signal.
[01:30:58.120 --> 01:31:01.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: So, I guess next time we'll try calling them in the middle of the night and waking them up.
[01:31:01.620 --> 01:31:03.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: That probably will be more successful for us.
[01:31:05.460 --> 01:31:06.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, let's give it another try.
[01:31:07.100 --> 01:31:16.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's give it one more try to actually get through to a military base in Saudi Arabia.
[01:31:18.440 --> 01:31:19.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's get an operator.
[01:31:24.910 --> 01:31:26.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, it hung up on us again.
[01:31:26.270 --> 01:31:28.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's a technical problem we have here.
[01:31:28.630 --> 01:31:29.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Operator?
[01:31:29.510 --> 01:31:30.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, hi.
[01:31:30.470 --> 01:31:31.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: Is this the operator?
[01:31:31.330 --> 01:31:31.570]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes.
[01:31:31.770 --> 01:31:33.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, I need long distance, please.
[01:31:33.470 --> 01:31:33.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[01:31:34.030 --> 01:31:34.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you.
[01:31:34.610 --> 01:31:35.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, I did it again.
[01:31:35.990 --> 01:31:38.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[01:31:39.390 --> 01:31:40.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[01:31:40.570 --> 01:31:41.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, I'm sarcastic to the recording.
[01:31:42.130 --> 01:31:43.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's no question.
[01:31:45.170 --> 01:31:47.290]  [SPEAKER_33]: AT&T, how can we help you?
[01:31:47.290 --> 01:31:47.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, hi.
[01:31:48.050 --> 01:31:50.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: We're having a great deal of difficulty getting through to Saudi Arabia.
[01:31:50.490 --> 01:31:51.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was wondering if you might be able to help us.
[01:31:52.090 --> 01:31:53.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: What number is trying to reach, please?
[01:31:53.310 --> 01:32:00.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm trying to reach country code 966, city code 3, and the number is 899-1119.
[01:32:01.490 --> 01:32:02.090]  [SPEAKER_33]: What's up here?
[01:32:02.550 --> 01:32:03.290]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thank you very much.
[01:32:15.680 --> 01:32:16.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a busy signal, eh?
[01:32:16.900 --> 01:32:17.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a busy signal.
[01:32:17.820 --> 01:32:18.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, thanks anyway.
[01:32:18.840 --> 01:32:19.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're welcome.
[01:32:20.160 --> 01:32:26.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, they're just passing forth all kinds of commands and orders back and forth, so I don't know.
[01:32:26.420 --> 01:32:35.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Unless somebody comes up with a better number, one that might not be so busy, we might have to consider this particular part of the program a failure.
[01:32:35.780 --> 01:32:36.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: I can live with that.
[01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:37.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know if our listeners can.
[01:32:38.840 --> 01:32:40.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: 212-279-3400.
[01:32:41.280 --> 01:32:41.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:32:42.660 --> 01:32:43.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[01:32:43.280 --> 01:32:54.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: I thought maybe you and your listeners might be interested to know that there will be an event this Sunday, a public forum on the Gulf crisis at the Columbia Law School that's free and open to the public.
[01:32:54.880 --> 01:32:56.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: And what time does it begin?
[01:32:56.440 --> 01:32:59.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's 10 o'clock in the morning until 8 o'clock at night.
[01:32:59.660 --> 01:33:00.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: This takes place at Columbia?
[01:33:01.420 --> 01:33:05.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Columbia Law School, 116th and Amsterdam, Classroom C.
[01:33:06.500 --> 01:33:08.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: And how many people are you expecting?
[01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:09.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: A couple hundred.
[01:33:09.940 --> 01:33:29.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: CNN is planning on broadcasting, and we have Congressman Ted Weiss is coming by, Professor Seymour Melman, Robert Knight has said he's going to speak, I think Daniel Lazar, some of the speakers.
[01:33:29.400 --> 01:33:31.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: And who is organizing this?
[01:33:32.020 --> 01:33:33.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's just an individual.
[01:33:34.460 --> 01:33:36.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: Her name is Beth Lamott.
[01:33:36.480 --> 01:33:39.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: She's connected a little with the American Humanist Association.
[01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:40.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[01:33:40.640 --> 01:33:45.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, that's great that an individual would organize something like this, and hopefully it'll lead to many more such things.
[01:33:45.900 --> 01:33:46.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm sure it will.
[01:33:47.000 --> 01:33:47.320]  Uh-huh.
[01:33:47.860 --> 01:33:50.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks so much for letting us know about it.
[01:33:50.440 --> 01:33:50.660]  Okay.
[01:33:51.040 --> 01:33:51.700]  Hope to see you there.
[01:33:51.900 --> 01:33:52.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[01:33:52.540 --> 01:33:52.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Take care.
[01:33:54.080 --> 01:33:58.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, well, just seeing Robert Knight speak alone is worth going for, believe me.
[01:33:58.620 --> 01:34:05.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, quite a bit of, uh, of knowledge will be passed at that particular event.
[01:34:06.120 --> 01:34:07.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: There are other events, too.
[01:34:08.220 --> 01:34:11.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if you listen to this radio station, I'm sure you'll hear all about them.
[01:34:11.240 --> 01:34:16.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, of course, if you listen to this radio station, you'll, you'll learn quite a bit that you won't learn in other places.
[01:34:18.580 --> 01:34:21.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's important to, uh, open up your mind.
[01:34:21.160 --> 01:34:23.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: And don't close off to, uh, to the other media sources, either.
[01:34:24.700 --> 01:34:28.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, there are people that listen to WBAI that, uh, refuse to listen to anything else.
[01:34:28.300 --> 01:34:29.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, that's a mistake, you know.
[01:34:29.420 --> 01:34:34.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: If you don't listen to, uh, what ABC News is saying, or what the New York Post...
[01:34:34.820 --> 01:34:36.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, okay, we can get away with the New York Post.
[01:34:36.320 --> 01:34:37.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: You don't have to look at them.
[01:34:37.140 --> 01:34:40.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, uh, you know, what mainstream media, for the most part, is doing.
[01:34:42.200 --> 01:34:50.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: You're making the same mistake that, uh, that someone who refuses to listen to Saddam Hussein or the Ayatollah.
[01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:51.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Same mistake.
[01:34:51.840 --> 01:34:52.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: You write them off.
[01:34:52.700 --> 01:34:53.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: You say they're crazy.
[01:34:53.720 --> 01:34:54.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: They don't make any sense.
[01:34:54.580 --> 01:34:58.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, the fact of the matter is, they make sense to a lot of people.
[01:34:59.240 --> 01:35:03.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if you want to consider them your enemy, you have to at least try to understand them.
[01:35:04.540 --> 01:35:10.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: No better way to understand your enemy than to listen to what they have to say.
[01:35:12.360 --> 01:35:12.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:35:15.160 --> 01:35:15.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hello.
[01:35:16.280 --> 01:35:17.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Is anyone there?
[01:35:18.400 --> 01:35:22.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, the person has moved on to better things, I guess.
[01:35:22.460 --> 01:35:22.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:35:23.780 --> 01:35:24.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[01:35:24.400 --> 01:35:24.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: How you doing?
[01:35:25.220 --> 01:35:25.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:35:26.180 --> 01:35:28.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have a couple of questions to ask you.
[01:35:28.180 --> 01:35:28.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[01:35:29.200 --> 01:35:30.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you consider yourself a pacifist?
[01:35:31.540 --> 01:35:34.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, you know, it depends on the situation.
[01:35:35.300 --> 01:35:36.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, I would say...
[01:35:36.540 --> 01:35:37.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: It depends on the situation.
[01:35:37.340 --> 01:35:38.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're not a pacifist.
[01:35:38.240 --> 01:35:40.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: What's your, what's your definition of a pacifist?
[01:35:40.100 --> 01:35:41.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, it's kind of a negative...
[01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:42.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: That will not fight a war under any circumstances.
[01:35:43.280 --> 01:35:45.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: I can't see myself doing that, no.
[01:35:45.740 --> 01:35:47.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can't see yourself doing what?
[01:35:47.400 --> 01:35:48.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Fighting in a war.
[01:35:48.420 --> 01:35:49.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Under any circumstances.
[01:35:50.260 --> 01:35:51.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that what you're saying?
[01:35:51.220 --> 01:35:52.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, you are a pacifist?
[01:35:52.600 --> 01:35:53.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: I guess I am, yeah.
[01:35:54.160 --> 01:35:57.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: You made a remark earlier about World War II.
[01:35:57.600 --> 01:35:58.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: You said it was an awful tragedy.
[01:35:59.780 --> 01:36:03.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, would your feeling have been that we should have not fought Hitler?
[01:36:03.940 --> 01:36:05.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, that's, you know...
[01:36:05.200 --> 01:36:09.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: I, I also said that there were just, uh, just wars.
[01:36:09.320 --> 01:36:11.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: And certainly, uh, fighting Hitler was a just cause.
[01:36:12.100 --> 01:36:22.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Would you support, if you had been, say, uh, of age to fight fascism at the time that Hitler was trying to take over the world, would you have, uh, supported that war?
[01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:26.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you know, it's, it's almost impossible to answer that question, but...
[01:36:26.960 --> 01:36:28.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was in that situation.
[01:36:28.340 --> 01:36:28.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah?
[01:36:28.700 --> 01:36:29.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, what, do you want to tell us about it?
[01:36:30.120 --> 01:36:30.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:36:30.720 --> 01:36:35.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: In the late 30s, there was a policy called collective security.
[01:36:35.240 --> 01:36:35.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:36:35.700 --> 01:36:44.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was being advanced by Maxim Litvinov, who was the, uh, foreign, um, uh, representative of the Soviet Union.
[01:36:45.220 --> 01:36:51.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, that was more or less brushed aside almost completely while Hitler was built up.
[01:36:51.220 --> 01:36:54.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: He was getting a two-billion-to-pound loan from England.
[01:36:54.220 --> 01:37:09.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: He was getting support from the right-wing fascist forces throughout the world, which were building him up in the hope that he would follow his Mein Kampf outline, which was at a Deng nochaston, the drive to the east, that he would be built up finally and fight the Soviet Union.
[01:37:10.280 --> 01:37:26.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, instead, when the time came from to fight the Soviet Union right after Munich, he, uh, which was supposed to be peace in our time, he signed the, uh, Soviet Nazi-not-aggression pact, and two days later, uh, we declared, England and, uh, France declared war in Germany.
[01:37:26.760 --> 01:37:31.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I guess you know that war was declared by them, because their policy obviously had failed.
[01:37:32.820 --> 01:37:44.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the policy of collective security now, it would seem to me, is the policy of stopping Saddam without war, which was the attempt that they were, that Litvinov was trying to make.
[01:37:44.920 --> 01:37:47.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: He was trying to get the world to impose sanctions.
[01:37:48.640 --> 01:38:01.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the policy of sanctions would be the policy to follow if we want to try and stop Hussein now, who's becoming more powerful, who's killed, what was it, 50,000, uh, people by poison gas within his own country.
[01:38:02.700 --> 01:38:20.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, suppose the situation were that the, uh, white government of South Africa were to use poison gas against 50,000, what they call coloreds, in South Africa in order to, uh, uh, nullify the, uh, activism that's taking place today.
[01:38:21.500 --> 01:38:30.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, would you feel, uh, very, very strongly against those people who advocated going in and trying to do something about it, notarily?
[01:38:30.460 --> 01:38:40.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you know, it's always, uh, it's always hard to, uh, to justify going into a foreign country, you know, and, and moving hundreds of thousands of troops there.
[01:38:40.300 --> 01:38:45.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: It just has a kind of unpleasant taste, you know, to, uh, uh, to flex your muscles in that way.
[01:38:45.980 --> 01:38:52.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I, you know, I have the same problem no matter what side I'm on at the particular time if I support the people going in.
[01:38:52.800 --> 01:38:57.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I didn't say I, I didn't support, uh, the, uh, the people in the U.S.
[01:38:57.400 --> 01:39:04.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: military here because, you know, I don't see them as, in this particular case, uh, uh, doing something that's bad.
[01:39:04.340 --> 01:39:07.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, but I think they're being led into something that could be very, very bad.
[01:39:08.660 --> 01:39:09.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um...
[01:39:09.020 --> 01:39:10.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I don't think this is the equivalent of Hitler.
[01:39:11.020 --> 01:39:14.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, I certainly don't either, and I wish Bush would stop saying it was.
[01:39:14.580 --> 01:39:16.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: ...of his stopping until he took over the world.
[01:39:17.020 --> 01:39:17.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[01:39:17.360 --> 01:39:18.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, I mean, it was his stated policy.
[01:39:20.180 --> 01:39:28.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Nevertheless, do you feel a little uncomfortable finding that you're aligned on the same side as the extreme right-wing fascist Nazi groups in this country?
[01:39:29.140 --> 01:39:31.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, they agree with your position 100%.
[01:39:31.320 --> 01:39:33.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: You'll have, you'll have to go into a little bit more detail on that.
[01:39:33.940 --> 01:39:50.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the fascists in this country, uh, the neo-Nazis, uh, have an analysis, which you may have heard about, I'm sure you've read about it, that this entire, uh, uh, uh, attempt to stop Hussein is actually a Jewish conspiracy.
[01:39:51.280 --> 01:40:00.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that, uh, it's, the Jews are trying to force this country into a war and that we have to fight against it in order to stop the Jews.
[01:40:00.300 --> 01:40:01.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, that's the policy.
[01:40:01.540 --> 01:40:11.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you get the extreme right-wingers, say, Pat Buchanan, who has supported everything that the United States has done in an imperialist way, he's supported Panama, he's supported Granada.
[01:40:11.740 --> 01:40:18.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: But all of a sudden, he's opposed, very, very strongly opposed, to going in against, uh, uh, Hussein.
[01:40:19.220 --> 01:40:22.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he's just the, I mean, the more respectable right-wingers.
[01:40:23.000 --> 01:40:27.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: The further to the right you go, the more violently they are against the United States' involvement.
[01:40:27.440 --> 01:40:37.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: The stronger the people were for invading Granada, invading Panama, uh, the stronger they are now against, going in against Hussein.
[01:40:38.000 --> 01:40:39.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that makes me feel a little uncomfortable.
[01:40:40.120 --> 01:40:41.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just wondering how it makes you feel.
[01:40:41.740 --> 01:40:44.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: To be shoulder with shoulder, shoulder with shoulder.
[01:40:44.940 --> 01:40:46.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I don't, I don't feel I'm shoulder with shoulder.
[01:40:46.840 --> 01:40:48.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right-winged fascist Nazi groups.
[01:40:48.680 --> 01:40:51.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: I, well, I don't see very many of them around, to be honest.
[01:40:51.880 --> 01:41:00.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I don't, I don't feel like I'm aligned with, uh, I mean, I'm sure that you could find something that I, I'd agree with Charles Manson about, and that doesn't mean I'm aligned with him.
[01:41:00.480 --> 01:41:03.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, it's, it's, um, I don't, I don't see that as a valid point.
[01:41:03.920 --> 01:41:04.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm sorry.
[01:41:04.940 --> 01:41:06.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I didn't, I don't know what point I'm making.
[01:41:06.960 --> 01:41:07.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Did I make a point?
[01:41:07.820 --> 01:41:09.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just really asked you how you felt about it.
[01:41:09.700 --> 01:41:10.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[01:41:10.200 --> 01:41:13.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I, I don't feel, I don't feel it's an issue.
[01:41:13.380 --> 01:41:14.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't feel something that, uh...
[01:41:14.940 --> 01:41:17.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: In a particular case, I don't think it's the equivalent of fighting the Nazis.
[01:41:17.900 --> 01:41:27.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Nevertheless, I said, I feel very uncomfortable when I find my allies to be extreme right-wing Nazis and fascists and anti-Semites, and I was asking you how you felt about that.
[01:41:27.920 --> 01:41:33.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I don't think you should think of it as, um, as them being your allies, because they're not your allies.
[01:41:33.720 --> 01:41:38.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: How, how can you even think they're your allies just because they agree with you on, on one particular issue?
[01:41:38.640 --> 01:41:39.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: That doesn't make sense.
[01:41:39.200 --> 01:41:42.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: On this issue, I'm not talking about they're being my allies philosophically.
[01:41:42.600 --> 01:41:53.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: I say I feel uneasy on this issue when I find that the people who are the strongest, uh, allies of the left-wing position are those on the extreme right-wing.
[01:41:54.200 --> 01:41:55.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Makes me feel a little uneasy.
[01:41:55.960 --> 01:41:58.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, you think of it as kind of a circular thing, perhaps?
[01:41:59.820 --> 01:42:03.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: The extreme, the extreme left is, uh, becoming the extreme right?
[01:42:04.380 --> 01:42:05.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I don't think so at all.
[01:42:05.960 --> 01:42:08.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think that motivations are completely different.
[01:42:08.520 --> 01:42:10.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: So, what's the problem?
[01:42:10.320 --> 01:42:11.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're on the same side.
[01:42:11.440 --> 01:42:17.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's one of those things where, we're coming from completely different positions and having completely different goals.
[01:42:17.440 --> 01:42:32.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Do you believe the extreme right is, is in that kind of a position where if, uh, if we actually get a particular, uh, view across, they'll be so strengthened that they could actually, uh, uh, become in power or something like that?
[01:42:32.200 --> 01:42:32.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Is that what you're saying?
[01:42:32.780 --> 01:42:33.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not at all.
[01:42:33.500 --> 01:42:34.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not saying that at all.
[01:42:34.640 --> 01:42:39.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just saying that the position that the, that the, uh, Buchanan is a good case in point.
[01:42:39.940 --> 01:42:44.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's been the most, uh, uh, articulate spokesman of the extreme right.
[01:42:44.960 --> 01:42:49.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: He has supported any Nazi, for example, who's brought up for a trial.
[01:42:49.280 --> 01:42:50.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: If he's convicted, he'll say he's innocent.
[01:42:51.280 --> 01:43:04.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: He supported all the Nazis who came to this country and has been fighting tooth and nail to have any of them expelled, even after it's been shown that they were brought here by, uh, fascist elements in our government, uh, which violated the law in bringing them here.
[01:43:04.860 --> 01:43:08.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: The, uh, I mean, it was hard enough to begin the, even to begin the investigation.
[01:43:08.520 --> 01:43:14.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, he's fighting now for Dimanjak, for example, uh, uh, for his acquittal.
[01:43:14.360 --> 01:43:14.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[01:43:14.700 --> 01:43:15.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think he's taken a position.
[01:43:15.740 --> 01:43:20.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: He took a position on Eichmann, but I'm sure if he did, it would have been to support Eichmann.
[01:43:20.180 --> 01:43:27.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, he's, uh, he's a very thinly veiled Nazi and, uh, he's, uh, extremely strong about, uh, not
[01:43:32.140 --> 01:43:33.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: fighting Hassan.
[01:43:33.280 --> 01:43:36.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: It should be coupled with how do we stop him?
[01:43:37.040 --> 01:43:41.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, here's a man who represents potentially a danger for the world.
[01:43:41.900 --> 01:43:55.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: If this man has nuclear arms and has poison gas, which is as powerful, and his objective, he's taken Kuwait, and I do think that, uh, the, the people whose position I don't agree with are correct in certain things.
[01:43:55.140 --> 01:43:59.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: I do think he would have gone into Saudi Arabia, for example, if we weren't there.
[01:43:59.400 --> 01:44:14.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: I do think he has an army that's the strongest in the Middle East, and his designs are to take over and become the man who controls the world, because if he controls all the oil, which is what he is, seems to be aiming towards, then he has a, he has the,
[01:44:14.740 --> 01:44:17.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: uh, world by the, uh, neck, so to speak.
[01:44:17.380 --> 01:44:17.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: He has a...
[01:44:17.700 --> 01:44:33.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you know, it's entirely possible that he does want to, uh, you know, to take over the world, but I think the, the best way to combat that is to have the world, uh, you know, uh, stand up against him, not just the United States, and since we have so much world support,
[01:44:34.080 --> 01:44:37.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: I, I just wonder why this has turned into a George Bush versus Saddam Hussein.
[01:44:37.860 --> 01:44:42.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's my main concern here, is why is this a, a U.S.
[01:44:42.500 --> 01:44:43.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: versus Iraq kind of a thing?
[01:44:43.840 --> 01:44:54.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: For economic, uh, considerations and oil considerations, it's exactly for that reason, because they're worried about us having a stranglehold on oil, and because our economy, I mean, we'd hit the worst depression we've ever seen.
[01:45:01.040 --> 01:45:07.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: country plunged into that kind of thing, which Hassan, Hassan can do if he gets complete control over our oil supplies.
[01:45:08.120 --> 01:45:11.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: So there's a, there's a desperate economic reason behind it.
[01:45:11.060 --> 01:45:26.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: But aside from that, what I'm saying is, it seems to me that it's, there's something wrong when the, uh, fight against going in to fight Hassan is not extremely, uh, uh, clearly coupled with denunciation of Hassan.
[01:45:26.600 --> 01:45:31.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, that it's, it seemed, it seems to be almost a defense of Hassan.
[01:45:32.080 --> 01:45:33.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've heard things that were like that.
[01:45:34.000 --> 01:45:40.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I heard a guy on WBAI a little while ago before you, who was saying that Bush is being told what to do by the Israelis.
[01:45:42.420 --> 01:45:42.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[01:45:42.920 --> 01:45:43.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, you know...
[01:45:43.780 --> 01:45:45.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: A guy who's coming from the left.
[01:45:46.300 --> 01:45:49.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Nevertheless, that's, to me, a strictly anti-Semitic remark.
[01:45:49.740 --> 01:45:49.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't...
[01:45:49.900 --> 01:45:51.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it depends how it's taken.
[01:45:51.480 --> 01:45:51.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean...
[01:45:51.920 --> 01:45:59.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm very strongly that the balance of power between Israel and the United States is that the Israelis are dictating to the United States.
[01:45:59.500 --> 01:46:01.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I mean, there's two ways you can take that.
[01:46:01.500 --> 01:46:15.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can say that, uh, you know, the Israelis are dictating to the United States and it's part of a world Zionist plot, which I agree with you would be an anti-Semitic, uh, remark, or it's that Israel is, uh, is very adamant about certain things and sometimes a bit fanatical,
[01:46:15.440 --> 01:46:18.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: and I think that's a justified criticism, not anti-Semitic at all.
[01:46:18.520 --> 01:46:18.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: ...way around.
[01:46:18.980 --> 01:46:22.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think the United States dictates Israeli policy, not vice versa.
[01:46:22.740 --> 01:46:28.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think they're being told now to cool it by the Bush government, and I think they're being told not even to defend themselves if they're attacked.
[01:46:29.420 --> 01:46:43.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hassan has come out and said he's going to nuke, or not nuke, use poison gas, which is the, he claims he doesn't have the nuclear bomb, uh, but he's, he's come out and said that the first thing he'll do if there's a war is to send, uh, missiles with, uh,
[01:46:43.820 --> 01:46:47.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: poison gas into the civilian centers of Israel, Tel Aviv.
[01:46:48.020 --> 01:46:59.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, I think he was expecting an equally hysterical retort from Israel, and instead what we saw was a very measured response, and I think that, uh, that in itself was enough to, uh, to shoot down with the threat we had.
[01:46:59.920 --> 01:47:02.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anybody on my side, uh, say anything about that?
[01:47:02.600 --> 01:47:03.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: I didn't hear anybody condemn it.
[01:47:03.940 --> 01:47:06.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: I didn't hear anybody attack that remark.
[01:47:06.400 --> 01:47:11.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't heard people really trying to pinpoint the danger of Hassan.
[01:47:11.460 --> 01:47:14.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: They've been pinpointing the danger of war, which I agree with.
[01:47:15.420 --> 01:47:15.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well...
[01:47:15.900 --> 01:47:18.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it's a very uncomfortable feeling I have.
[01:47:18.420 --> 01:47:20.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I'm not a pacifist.
[01:47:20.060 --> 01:47:22.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe if we're invaded, you have to fight back.
[01:47:22.180 --> 01:47:24.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe when Hitler threatened the world, we had to fight.
[01:47:25.600 --> 01:47:26.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, I...
[01:47:26.720 --> 01:47:29.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it's not just that I'm against war, per se.
[01:47:29.460 --> 01:47:40.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I would like to see a world, if there was a world socialist order, perhaps, in which there were no imperialist conflicts, uh, that we might be able to avoid war, finally, to root war out of the, uh, universe.
[01:47:41.340 --> 01:47:47.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, but, uh, as long as war is taking place, uh, occasionally there's a just war.
[01:47:48.280 --> 01:47:54.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, therefore, to be against it purely as I, I, I, I feel that there's a pacifist undertone.
[01:47:54.260 --> 01:48:01.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: I keep hearing the argument is, we don't go on to this war, we don't want to go into this war because they're going to be body bags bringing our boys home.
[01:48:01.960 --> 01:48:02.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I knew that.
[01:48:03.120 --> 01:48:07.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I knew that in 19, uh, in 1941, uh, in 1942.
[01:48:08.000 --> 01:48:18.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: When I enlisted in the army of 42, the, uh, argument being used by the neo-Nazi elements and the direct Nazi elements in this country was, they're sending American boys over to be killed.
[01:48:18.600 --> 01:48:21.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it wasn't a matter of why we were fighting.
[01:48:21.560 --> 01:48:26.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was just a pacifist idea that just to fight is bad because it's going to lead to death.
[01:48:26.900 --> 01:48:33.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And my feeling is that that's a dangerous position to take because if a just war comes up, those same arguments can be used.
[01:48:33.600 --> 01:48:41.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, it's not a valid, it's not a valid argument to say we mustn't fight because there may be boys coming back in body bags.
[01:48:41.900 --> 01:48:43.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, but that's a, that's a very good reason.
[01:48:43.620 --> 01:48:45.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because those are needless deaths.
[01:48:45.640 --> 01:48:46.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's the real reason.
[01:48:46.460 --> 01:48:49.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, but that's a very good, very good reason to start asking questions.
[01:48:49.800 --> 01:48:51.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Is this a just war?
[01:48:51.500 --> 01:48:54.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think that's what we're asking here is, is this a just war?
[01:48:54.600 --> 01:48:54.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[01:48:55.280 --> 01:48:56.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks very much for calling.
[01:48:56.280 --> 01:48:57.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's a very interesting discussion.
[01:48:57.280 --> 01:48:59.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'd like to continue it, but I do want to get in a couple more calls.
[01:48:59.800 --> 01:49:00.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks very much again.
[01:49:01.600 --> 01:49:04.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: And let's see how many we can get in the last couple of minutes here.
[01:49:04.860 --> 01:49:05.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:49:05.840 --> 01:49:06.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:49:06.980 --> 01:49:08.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I didn't mean to hang up on you.
[01:49:08.260 --> 01:49:09.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: I thought you were going to hang up on me.
[01:49:09.400 --> 01:49:10.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's why I hung up, okay?
[01:49:10.420 --> 01:49:11.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm willing to talk to you.
[01:49:11.360 --> 01:49:11.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sure.
[01:49:11.940 --> 01:49:12.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, boy.
[01:49:12.460 --> 01:49:12.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, go ahead.
[01:49:13.060 --> 01:49:13.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Fast.
[01:49:13.580 --> 01:49:14.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, I'm willing to respond.
[01:49:14.480 --> 01:49:15.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: You want to, I thought you were going to hang up on me.
[01:49:15.940 --> 01:49:16.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's why I hung up, okay?
[01:49:16.880 --> 01:49:18.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Just, just get on with it.
[01:49:18.060 --> 01:49:18.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[01:49:18.880 --> 01:49:22.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Look, I'm just saying that this is a very sophisticated audience.
[01:49:22.580 --> 01:49:28.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I feel like when you call those folks, it's like, you're somehow like the educator to the uneducated, unenlightened ones.
[01:49:28.120 --> 01:49:30.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think more respect for the people.
[01:49:30.100 --> 01:49:31.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe when you're at Stony Brook, that's different.
[01:49:31.960 --> 01:49:33.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, those kids, those are kids.
[01:49:33.540 --> 01:49:34.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're not kids out here, okay?
[01:49:35.240 --> 01:49:36.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, hello?
[01:49:36.780 --> 01:49:36.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[01:49:38.000 --> 01:49:40.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's, that's not the way I intended it at all.
[01:49:40.280 --> 01:49:42.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I've never heard anybody else interpret it that way.
[01:49:42.780 --> 01:49:45.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you know, the thing with the telephone company, right?
[01:49:45.300 --> 01:49:48.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's like the Big Brother should be treated in an angry way.
[01:49:48.780 --> 01:49:50.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: But when you get those operators, they're just people.
[01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:52.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: They don't, they don't represent Big Brother, okay?
[01:49:52.820 --> 01:49:53.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: They're just working for a job.
[01:49:54.020 --> 01:49:58.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you, you abuse them in a little sarcastic or not, not the recordings, the people.
[01:49:59.260 --> 01:50:02.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, and they don't have to, you'll have to give me a specific example.
[01:50:02.860 --> 01:50:04.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: Because I, I don't know what you're talking about.
[01:50:04.560 --> 01:50:06.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm not, I'm not abusive to operators at all.
[01:50:07.020 --> 01:50:07.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: I never have been.
[01:50:07.720 --> 01:50:08.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not in real life.
[01:50:08.480 --> 01:50:09.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not on the radio.
[01:50:09.180 --> 01:50:10.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: In a very subtle way.
[01:50:10.880 --> 01:50:11.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's really quite palpable.
[01:50:11.760 --> 01:50:15.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, maybe it's so subtle that even I'm missing it because I don't, I don't understand it at all.
[01:50:16.120 --> 01:50:19.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, I mean, I, I think I'm not getting it, okay?
[01:50:19.540 --> 01:50:21.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, I'll, I'll agree with other people for it right now.
[01:50:21.760 --> 01:50:22.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Sorry?
[01:50:22.320 --> 01:50:23.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll agree with other people in the last couple minutes.
[01:50:23.880 --> 01:50:24.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[01:50:25.580 --> 01:50:26.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, boy.
[01:50:26.600 --> 01:50:27.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: What a world.
[01:50:27.480 --> 01:50:27.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[01:50:28.220 --> 01:50:28.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good morning.
[01:50:28.620 --> 01:50:29.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi there.
[01:50:29.480 --> 01:50:31.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: You had the show on last night, right?
[01:50:31.420 --> 01:50:33.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, yes, Off The Hook was on last night, yes.
[01:50:33.900 --> 01:50:35.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can I mention something about that?
[01:50:35.540 --> 01:50:38.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, very quickly because this isn't Off The Hook, but go ahead.
[01:50:38.820 --> 01:50:42.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think once again you've been had by New York Telephone.
[01:50:42.480 --> 01:50:44.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: I've been had by New York Telephone?
[01:50:44.300 --> 01:50:45.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: How have I been had?
[01:50:45.360 --> 01:50:52.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: You, well, because you said that, um, that they've asked for $800 million and got $250 million.
[01:50:53.060 --> 01:50:54.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I'm not too happy about that.
[01:50:54.740 --> 01:50:57.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, you know, do you think they expected to get $800?
[01:50:57.580 --> 01:51:01.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: They probably expected to get $200, and they got more than they expected.
[01:51:02.280 --> 01:51:05.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's possible, but they have gotten what they've asked for in the past.
[01:51:05.840 --> 01:51:07.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, they've gotten close to what they've asked for in the past.
[01:51:07.980 --> 01:51:10.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: But they, you know, given what's going on...
[01:51:10.040 --> 01:51:11.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, I'm not happy about this by any means.
[01:51:11.860 --> 01:51:13.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, I know you're not happy.
[01:51:13.400 --> 01:51:15.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: I bet you're as unhappy as I am.
[01:51:15.240 --> 01:51:19.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: But I think they're kind of unhappy, too, and that makes me a little happier.
[01:51:19.120 --> 01:51:19.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know what I mean?
[01:51:19.640 --> 01:51:19.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: I doubt that.
[01:51:20.100 --> 01:51:25.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think, you know, given how things go, that they probably, you know, they knew that they wouldn't
[01:51:30.100 --> 01:51:32.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's a valid point.
[01:51:32.500 --> 01:51:33.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: But I'm going to have to leave it at that.
[01:51:33.960 --> 01:51:34.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Thanks for calling.
[01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:36.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: And thanks to everybody else who called.
[01:51:41.220 --> 01:51:44.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we're just about out of time here on WBAI.
[01:51:44.860 --> 01:51:46.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Bob Fast is up next.
[01:51:46.860 --> 01:51:52.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: And Andrew Phillips may or may not be back in two weeks.
[01:51:52.220 --> 01:51:53.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: I might be filling in for him then, too.
[01:51:53.500 --> 01:51:54.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm not quite certain.
[01:51:55.980 --> 01:51:59.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we'll see how the... Boy, that's after war day, isn't it?
[01:51:59.780 --> 01:52:01.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's two days after war day.
[01:52:01.480 --> 01:52:03.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: Boy, it used to be called Martin Luther King Day.
[01:52:03.460 --> 01:52:05.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Let's hope it remains that way.
[01:52:06.600 --> 01:52:07.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[01:52:07.260 --> 01:52:08.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Emmanuel Goldstein signing off.
[01:52:09.380 --> 01:52:11.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good night, everyone, and peace.