Off The Hook - 1991-02-25

[00:08.360 --> 00:19.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: On Monday, February 25th, at 9 p.m., Soundscapes, Explorations in Radio, Sound, and Music presents works from New American Radio.
[00:20.660 --> 00:26.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Tune in and hear samples of both local and international radio art.
[00:26.360 --> 00:34.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's Monday, February 25th, at 9 p.m., on WBAI in New York City.
[00:44.340 --> 00:47.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is WBAI New York.
[00:47.280 --> 00:48.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Stay tuned for Talkback.
[02:10.220 --> 02:16.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: WBAI New York City But...
[02:35.370 --> 02:43.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can still hear people crying, now who takes the blame?
[02:43.210 --> 02:52.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: The numbers are different, the kind is still the same.
[03:11.490 --> 03:19.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bones to settle arguments, the order of the boot.
[03:19.050 --> 03:27.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: From the graves of Belsen to the ruins of Beirut.
[03:29.540 --> 03:36.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can still see people dying, now who takes the blame?
[04:30.520 --> 04:36.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: The track is called War Crimes, and it comes from Special A.K.A. here on WBAI, War Crimes.
[04:40.100 --> 04:43.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: The order of the day, and things of that effect.
[04:44.320 --> 04:52.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon, this is Emmanuel Goldstein on Talkback, filling in for Maliki McCord today, who I understand will be back next Monday.
[04:52.820 --> 04:59.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we'll be talking about the events of the day, as we usually do on this time slot.
[05:00.540 --> 05:06.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: Taking your phone calls, and seeing what WBAI listeners have on their minds.
[05:08.180 --> 05:13.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know about you, but gosh darn it, I am just so relieved that this war has started.
[05:13.640 --> 05:15.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: I feel so much more secure now, don't you?
[05:15.820 --> 05:22.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, they're out there, they're bringing this to a swift and speedy conclusion.
[05:23.580 --> 05:28.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: All in the interest of democracy, and those things that we live and breathe for.
[05:30.260 --> 05:38.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: I feel so much better now, that everything is underway, and there's shooting, and bombs, and rockets, and things like that going off.
[05:41.040 --> 05:46.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know about you, but I'm having a bit of difficulty here.
[05:46.100 --> 05:49.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Over the last few weeks, it's been a sobering experience.
[05:51.060 --> 05:57.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think it's sobering for anybody that sits back and thinks a little too much.
[05:58.680 --> 06:00.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I've been guilty of that in the past.
[06:02.060 --> 06:06.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: I also have trouble, you know, in crowds, and mobs, and things like that.
[06:06.620 --> 06:13.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: And always, whenever everybody says something is black, I say it's white.
[06:15.320 --> 06:15.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: Etc.
[06:16.840 --> 06:17.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know what I mean?
[06:17.780 --> 06:23.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know where you sort of don't want to go along with the crowd, no matter what the crowd is saying?
[06:23.800 --> 06:27.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: In this particular case, though, what the crowd is saying, I think, is pretty damn scary.
[06:29.700 --> 06:32.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: I've never experienced this before.
[06:32.760 --> 06:39.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: I know there are a lot of people around that have experienced this, and they're certainly welcome to give their views on this.
[06:39.940 --> 06:46.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I've never seen a country this fixated with war before.
[06:47.340 --> 06:50.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, I always sort of thought that it wasn't possible.
[06:51.700 --> 07:02.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, in my naive little way, I figured that all this talk of peace that we had since the Vietnam War would have a lasting effect.
[07:02.920 --> 07:05.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we wouldn't plunge back into something.
[07:07.420 --> 07:08.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, guess what?
[07:08.760 --> 07:10.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: We plunge back into something anyway.
[07:10.700 --> 07:15.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, it's all for a good cause.
[07:15.100 --> 07:22.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's for peace and freedom and democracy and, you know, putting down a dictator.
[07:24.420 --> 07:27.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh, it's war.
[07:27.800 --> 07:28.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know?
[07:28.600 --> 07:29.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know what war is?
[07:30.820 --> 07:34.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think very many of us do know what war is.
[07:35.820 --> 07:57.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many people in this country have, um, have had to worry about having their homes blown up, about having mines go off in front of you, streets blown away, wondering if, uh, your family will live through the coming week.
[07:57.220 --> 08:09.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Like, we're not talking about people that we send overseas, you know, we send them overseas and we say, good luck, come back soon, we'll tie a yellow ribbon around the tree for you.
[08:10.800 --> 08:17.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, uh, we don't know what living through war is like.
[08:18.540 --> 08:30.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think it's the utmost in cowardice to wave flags and tie ribbons and say, hey, we're behind you 100%.
[08:31.440 --> 08:42.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: And then continue to live our peaceful lives and not have any idea what is really going on.
[08:46.390 --> 08:48.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's the utmost in cowardice, I believe.
[08:48.330 --> 08:54.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because, if you knew, and I don't know, so, don't think that I do.
[08:54.990 --> 08:57.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know, but I have an idea what it must be like.
[08:59.350 --> 09:08.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you don't know what it's like to, uh, to go through a war, not as a soldier, but as a civilian.
[09:09.370 --> 09:15.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because civilians, believe it or not, still make up the majority of, uh, of people in the world.
[09:16.610 --> 09:24.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you don't know what it's like to go through it as a civilian, then how can you speak intelligently of what war is?
[09:25.010 --> 09:26.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, militarily.
[09:27.230 --> 09:30.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Militarily, some of what Bush says makes sense, you know?
[09:30.490 --> 09:38.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to go in there, we're going to drive these people out, and we're going to establish a force here, and get all the bad ones out, and put all the good ones in.
[09:40.050 --> 09:41.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, that would be great.
[09:41.210 --> 09:44.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: That would be wonderful if, if there was nothing but military people in the world.
[09:45.270 --> 09:49.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, if there's just soldiers and no civilians, but there's so many civilians.
[09:51.750 --> 09:54.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Spread out no matter where you go, even in the desert.
[09:55.210 --> 10:06.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, while I have nothing but sympathy for people, uh, cowering in, um, in bomb shelters, in Israel, waiting for the Scud missiles to, uh, to arrive.
[10:07.910 --> 10:08.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's get real.
[10:09.290 --> 10:11.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many people in Israel have been killed?
[10:11.470 --> 10:11.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Four?
[10:11.910 --> 10:13.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: Four people have been killed in Israel?
[10:15.130 --> 10:17.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many people in Baghdad have died?
[10:17.830 --> 10:18.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: We don't know.
[10:24.030 --> 10:32.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because, for some reason, for some reason, the civilians of Baghdad are less than the civilians of Tel Aviv.
[10:32.930 --> 10:33.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why is that?
[10:34.110 --> 10:35.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: What makes them less?
[10:35.890 --> 10:37.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: What makes an Arab less than an Israeli?
[10:38.870 --> 10:39.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Explain it to me.
[10:39.730 --> 10:40.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe I'm just stupid.
[10:40.590 --> 10:41.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe I don't understand these things.
[10:43.050 --> 10:44.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: But I see nothing but hypocrisy here.
[10:45.050 --> 10:47.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see hatred being bred into us.
[10:48.650 --> 10:50.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, these are questions we should be asking.
[10:50.750 --> 10:54.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: We should be demanding to know, well, what are we doing to these?
[10:54.110 --> 10:57.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because our, our tax money is going to kill people.
[10:59.690 --> 11:01.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's always what happens in a war.
[11:02.030 --> 11:05.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: No matter what they say on, um, on CNN.
[11:05.570 --> 11:07.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: No matter what they report on the evening news.
[11:08.410 --> 11:09.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: People are dying.
[11:10.590 --> 11:13.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: We still don't know how many people died in Panama.
[11:13.470 --> 11:19.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: We may never find out because it's not exactly in everyone's interest to find out these things.
[11:22.780 --> 11:28.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, yes, I'm having, I'm having a bit of difficulty over the last couple of weeks.
[11:30.420 --> 11:34.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I, I'm looking at this from an individual point of view.
[11:34.800 --> 11:38.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm looking at it from, um, my own perspective.
[11:39.780 --> 11:46.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: While I've been to rallies and demonstrations and things like that, I still consider myself to be an individual person.
[11:46.920 --> 11:51.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't buy into anything without thinking about it first.
[11:51.940 --> 11:56.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's why I hesitate to call myself a particular type of person.
[11:57.200 --> 12:00.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: Be it Republican, Democrat, what have you.
[12:02.280 --> 12:08.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I, I just wish more people would think that, uh, what they have to say matters.
[12:09.960 --> 12:13.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Instead of just doing what everyone else is doing.
[12:14.360 --> 12:20.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I see it, I see it on both sides, but the vast majority right now, of course, is on the pro-war side.
[12:21.120 --> 12:32.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Just as an example of this, this last, uh, last weekend, the one that just went by, I took a trip down to, uh, Washington, D.C.
[12:32.360 --> 12:33.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: by, by the train.
[12:34.980 --> 12:37.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know how trains are.
[12:37.300 --> 12:38.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: They get kind of boring after a while.
[12:38.740 --> 12:39.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's not much to do.
[12:40.100 --> 12:41.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: Walk up and down a few times.
[12:43.280 --> 12:44.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: So you look out the window.
[12:45.620 --> 12:47.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: I looked out the window, and I saw America going by.
[12:49.240 --> 12:50.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I said, gee, look at all those flags.
[12:50.960 --> 12:51.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: Look at all those yellow ribbons.
[12:52.340 --> 12:54.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm gonna, I'm gonna play a little game here.
[12:54.460 --> 13:08.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm gonna see if I can hold my breath to the point of nearly passing out until I see a flag or a yellow ribbon.
[13:10.080 --> 13:12.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: So you understand the, uh, the, the, the premise of this.
[13:12.300 --> 13:17.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: And perhaps those of you in cars right now can, uh, uh, can, can play this game too.
[13:18.340 --> 13:25.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I can say this knowing that I won't cause any accidents if, uh, if people do decide to hold their breath right now as they're driving.
[13:26.080 --> 13:29.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: Just take a deep, you know, inhale deeply.
[13:30.580 --> 13:31.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go on.
[13:31.140 --> 13:43.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: And hold that breath until you see either on a car, on a house, on a lamppost, tree, telephone pole, a flag, or yellow ribbon.
[13:43.280 --> 13:47.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, if anybody is still holding their breath, I will be amazingly surprised.
[13:47.440 --> 13:49.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, I don't think anybody is still holding their breath.
[13:49.840 --> 13:50.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're everywhere.
[13:51.500 --> 13:53.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Flags, yellow ribbons are everywhere.
[13:53.980 --> 14:03.660]  [EVILCORLEY]: Which is okay, you know, it doesn't bother me to see flags and yellow ribbons, but it's the, it's that pressure that comes with that sentiment, you know?
[14:04.800 --> 14:13.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: The pressure that says, support our troops, or you're not for us.
[14:13.780 --> 14:15.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: You don't belong here.
[14:15.680 --> 14:23.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: I can't tell you how many people I have heard say words to the effect of, well, if you don't like this country, why don't you leave?
[14:24.500 --> 14:38.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's, it's, it's the most incredible statement, you know, coming in a, in a democracy where you're supposed to, you have the obligation to speak out and to question and to make up your own individual mind.
[14:41.160 --> 14:45.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, you would not expect that in this kind of country, but yet, that's the thing I hear the most.
[14:45.240 --> 14:56.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I say back to them, I don't like the way things are going, but I'm not going to leave, I'm going to stay, and I'm going to change things, or I'm going to do my best to change things.
[14:56.760 --> 14:59.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, keep that in mind as a slogan.
[15:00.900 --> 15:03.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: America, love it or change it.
[15:05.220 --> 15:09.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our telephone number is 212-279-3400.
[15:10.300 --> 15:15.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I'd like for people today, if possible, if you can do this for me, it's a bit of a favor.
[15:16.240 --> 15:20.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: Being an anti-war person these days is not a pleasant thing.
[15:22.380 --> 15:31.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not pleasant at all, because in the press, you're constantly belittled, constantly being faced with, you know, self-doubts.
[15:31.360 --> 15:32.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's nobody else out there.
[15:32.420 --> 15:34.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Nobody else at all thinks the way you do.
[15:34.440 --> 15:36.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: There must be something wrong with you, right?
[15:38.000 --> 15:45.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: So if anybody out there can bring me over to the other side, I'm sure I'll be a happier person when I arrive there, when I can join everybody else.
[15:46.460 --> 15:48.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Call me, convince me that I'm wrong.
[15:49.000 --> 15:49.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what I want to hear.
[15:51.520 --> 15:58.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if at the end of the time we have together today, I've moved over to the other side, then that's just the way things are.
[16:01.400 --> 16:05.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: If not, I'll still be miserable and so will everybody else that agrees with me.
[16:08.240 --> 16:10.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many of you have been to anti-war rallies?
[16:10.300 --> 16:14.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, there's one going on in about 15 minutes and that's in Times Square.
[16:15.340 --> 16:18.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is the Coalition to Stop U.S.
[16:18.460 --> 16:19.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: Intervention in the Mideast.
[16:20.180 --> 16:21.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Middle East, rather.
[16:21.640 --> 16:24.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: 42nd Street and Broadway that begins at 5 o'clock.
[16:24.960 --> 16:26.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: Be interesting to see how many people show up.
[16:28.520 --> 16:31.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, for those of you that haven't gone to anti-war rallies, I'd like to know why.
[16:32.120 --> 16:37.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you don't believe in the war, if you have any doubts about the war, why not show up?
[16:38.020 --> 16:39.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why not talk about it with people?
[16:40.460 --> 16:44.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: I went to a pro-war rally a couple of weeks ago.
[16:44.420 --> 16:45.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's right, I went to one.
[16:46.340 --> 16:47.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because you have to go to those as well.
[16:48.060 --> 16:50.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: You can't just go to the anti-war rallies.
[16:50.580 --> 16:51.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: You have to go to the pro-war rallies.
[16:53.180 --> 16:57.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I didn't go unarmed to this pro-war rally.
[16:57.200 --> 16:58.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: I came with a sign.
[16:58.880 --> 17:06.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it was the day that we bombed the bomb shelter with all the civilians inside.
[17:07.200 --> 17:13.780]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I'm not even going to get into whether or not it was military, whether it was civilian.
[17:14.140 --> 17:19.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: The fact of the matter is there were hundreds of women and children in the thing.
[17:19.580 --> 17:20.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: That is a fact.
[17:21.840 --> 17:22.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: That is a fact.
[17:23.060 --> 17:26.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's something that we did.
[17:26.920 --> 17:29.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: We killed hundreds of women and children.
[17:29.780 --> 17:33.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, you can say, oh, but it was to drive the dictator Saddam out.
[17:34.720 --> 17:38.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I say again, we killed hundreds of women and children.
[17:39.720 --> 17:40.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: Period.
[17:41.760 --> 17:43.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that is wrong.
[17:44.960 --> 17:47.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's something that we should be thinking about.
[17:47.020 --> 17:58.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I came to this demonstration with a sign hastily constructed that day that just said on kind of like a newspaper headline, U.S.
[17:59.040 --> 18:06.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: planes drop bombs on women and children, killing hundreds.
[18:09.010 --> 18:12.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: And people looked at it and they looked away.
[18:12.930 --> 18:14.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: Nobody really said anything to me.
[18:16.570 --> 18:19.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Just kind of a sobering moment when they looked at that sign.
[18:20.930 --> 18:27.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I found other people, too, that had, on their own volition, shown up at this war rally with peace signs.
[18:28.870 --> 18:32.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: And before you know it, the numbers were equal.
[18:33.010 --> 18:37.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: There were just as many peace ralliers as there were war ralliers.
[18:39.610 --> 18:46.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I can't describe the feeling that you get when you, uh, when you unite fight like that.
[18:48.250 --> 18:56.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And in a way, that takes guts, you know, that takes courage to stand up to what could be a real threat to your physical being.
[18:56.770 --> 19:05.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: And in fact, uh, quite a few people on the pro-war side did express urges to, uh, to use violent force right there.
[19:09.520 --> 19:13.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, fighting a war takes many forms.
[19:13.460 --> 19:15.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: You don't have to be a soldier to fight in the war.
[19:17.200 --> 19:18.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Something else to keep in mind.
[19:20.420 --> 19:29.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, we're going to, uh, move over to the telephones and see what, uh, what New York thinks today.
[19:29.760 --> 19:31.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: 212-279-3400.
[19:32.520 --> 19:33.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Program is TalkBack.
[19:33.680 --> 19:41.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're talking about war, and we're going to continue talking about war until you get sick of it or until it goes away.
[19:42.360 --> 19:43.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: I choose the latter.
[19:44.820 --> 19:45.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[19:45.540 --> 19:45.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hi.
[19:45.960 --> 19:46.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: How you doing?
[19:46.520 --> 19:55.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking about a Middle East butcher who invaded a neighboring country, slaughtered thousands of his own citizens, and attacked Israel.
[19:56.340 --> 19:57.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know who I'm thinking of?
[19:58.220 --> 20:00.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hafez al-Assad, Bush's buddy.
[20:01.680 --> 20:20.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one thing that really troubles me about this war is that, by and large, I'm hearing on Christian radio, this gung-ho God and country, that somehow we are fighting a righteous, just war, and that we are doing the righteous will of God, and it's blasphemy,
[20:20.300 --> 20:21.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: in my opinion.
[20:21.240 --> 20:29.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the reason why I called, I wanted to direct your attention to this letter that, a letter to the editor that appeared in today's Star Ledger.
[20:29.980 --> 20:46.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of 500,000 letters sent by the Republican National Committee to papers around the country, and it's the exact same letter, and they sent it to different people, and they get them to sign their name to it, and send the letter into the papers.
[20:47.360 --> 20:55.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a very, you know, anti-peace, reactionary letter that if we're against the war, that we're supporting Saddam Hussein.
[20:55.900 --> 21:12.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it comes from the Republican National Committee, which was just taken over by some new person who's one of the first things he did when he took over the committee was to try to divide the war along party lines in Washington.
[21:13.200 --> 21:16.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so obvious what's happening here, you know?
[21:16.840 --> 21:36.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have just many, many thoughts, and I don't know, you know, I'm just upset about it because it's so hypocritical that it's not only women and children, but it's old men, it's civilians, and it's well into the tens of thousands of Iraqi children of God,
[21:36.980 --> 21:43.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: because we're all God's children equally, who are being bombed for oil, for nothing else but oil.
[21:44.200 --> 21:48.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's another point that I keep coming back to.
[21:48.600 --> 21:49.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why are we there?
[21:50.000 --> 21:57.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're not there for democracy, we're not there for freedom, it's not freedom, it's oil.
[21:57.440 --> 21:58.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're right, it's oil.
[21:59.100 --> 21:59.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sure.
[21:59.620 --> 22:12.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what it comes down to, and I think the majority of Americans, I heard a poll on the radio this morning, a majority of Americans do believe that it is oil, we're there for it, but a majority also feel that oil is just as good a reason as any to fight.
[22:13.860 --> 22:17.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's our way of life, you see, that we're protecting.
[22:17.040 --> 22:39.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's very, very sad, but what I see different in this war is this righteous element, this, well, there's always been the militaristic righteous element, but now it's taken on a religious flavor, you know, even the quoting of scripture, the misapplication of certain prophecies,
[22:39.620 --> 22:45.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: because they find coincidental words and phrases, and then apply it to what's going on today.
[22:45.460 --> 23:03.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I've even heard Pat Robertson speak, and I do like many things that he says, but I've heard him talk about prophecy, and it's very dangerous if people are threatening to get into power who are going to look in the scriptures and think that we have some divine place in prophecy as agents of God.
[23:03.420 --> 23:05.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's very, very dangerous.
[23:05.320 --> 23:09.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's also kind of reminiscent of what we accuse people in the Mideast of doing.
[23:10.900 --> 23:31.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, what I read in scripture, and I've been reading the Bible for several years, the thing that is closest to the heart of God is the hungry, starving, you know, destitute, sick person, whether it's a child or whatever, you know, and, you know,
[23:31.940 --> 23:33.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: God is not on our side.
[23:33.640 --> 23:40.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: God is on the side of the victims, whether they're in Kuwait, or whether now they're in Iraq.
[23:41.100 --> 23:57.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: These are people who are not only dying, but people who are crippled, who are suffering, who are bleeding, and there's pestilence there, there's diseases, I've heard cholera is happening there, and this is all because of oil, and I'm just disgusted, and I don't know what to do,
[23:57.460 --> 24:09.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: because, you know, I'm just going to keep on listening, and we can be tactful, and we love our country, and we hate to see our flag being turned into some cheap economic symbol.
[24:10.320 --> 24:11.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm upset.
[24:11.320 --> 24:12.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have to get off now.
[24:12.340 --> 24:13.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[24:14.240 --> 24:20.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think he illustrated very well what feelings people are getting these days.
[24:20.840 --> 24:21.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, you do get very upset.
[24:24.060 --> 24:28.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: Religious zealotry, it's an ugly thing no matter what side you're on.
[24:28.400 --> 24:46.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, if you speak about what side God is on, well, take a look at somebody like Mother Teresa, you know, someone who helps the poor, and doesn't think about nationality, religion, who is right and who is wrong.
[24:47.460 --> 24:50.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to know her feelings on this war.
[24:50.400 --> 24:57.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: If any war that has this kind of destruction is a just war, I'd like to know.
[24:59.060 --> 24:59.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[25:00.680 --> 25:01.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hello.
[25:01.540 --> 25:01.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[25:02.260 --> 25:02.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hey, thanks.
[25:03.560 --> 25:09.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I'm just calling to say, well, the last call was so right on the money on that.
[25:10.200 --> 25:15.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's pretty sad what's going on, and talking about the religious aspect and everything.
[25:16.740 --> 25:37.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've read, or at least under reading a book by his author, Zachariah Sitchin concerning that area of the world, and how 6,000 years ago the civilization was there, but I haven't heard anyone speak about that particular history of the country, about the Sumerians.
[25:38.260 --> 25:40.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was wondering if you'd heard anything about that.
[25:41.160 --> 25:46.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: I haven't myself, as far as you talk about the history of the region.
[25:47.440 --> 25:49.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, 6,000 years ago.
[25:50.460 --> 25:53.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I've got the little thing that was in the Times today.
[25:53.200 --> 26:01.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think that's really anything that we didn't already know, though, as far as the origins of Kuwait, the origins of Iraq.
[26:02.740 --> 26:03.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[26:03.680 --> 26:24.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's what I was wondering because this author, the book is called Genesis Revisited, and this author says that actually part of the reason about Hussein was that he was going to apparently launch his own satellites, and that was one of the reasons why people wanted to deal with him in such a way so violently.
[26:24.380 --> 26:28.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: I assume these are military satellites, not cable TV or anything like that.
[26:28.400 --> 26:28.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Probably.
[26:29.320 --> 26:36.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, obviously we're concerned about Saddam Hussein, but we weren't so concerned a year ago.
[26:36.600 --> 26:39.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're not so concerned today about Assad.
[26:39.660 --> 26:45.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're not so concerned about all the other dictators of the world, rightist ones mostly.
[26:46.340 --> 26:47.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: what does it take?
[26:47.420 --> 26:52.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: What does it take to make us suddenly turn someone into number one enemy?
[26:52.760 --> 26:54.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: It seems to be repeated over and over.
[26:55.280 --> 26:55.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[26:55.760 --> 26:57.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, who knows?
[26:57.180 --> 27:05.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe this time will be the time that we all, on a global aspect anyway, are able to suffer from the consequences of this violence.
[27:06.440 --> 27:11.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think this whole situation could have been solved non-militarily, and if so, how?
[27:12.740 --> 27:14.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, absolutely.
[27:14.920 --> 27:19.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, people can talk, people can come to agreement.
[27:19.860 --> 27:23.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, if you can sit across the table from someone, you've got to respect that person.
[27:23.840 --> 27:32.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, also, I guess, like someone said on another program I heard before, basically, people are just not interested in talking.
[27:33.940 --> 27:36.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, it's like, you just do what I want you to do, and that's it.
[27:37.300 --> 27:45.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, that attitude actually is suicidal in a way, I think, because we're all going to suffer from it.
[27:45.840 --> 27:50.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, and try bringing that down to day-to-day life.
[27:50.760 --> 27:54.360]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, someone, like you say, doesn't do what you want them to do.
[27:55.300 --> 27:57.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is using force to make them do that?
[27:57.540 --> 27:59.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Is that what we're taught?
[27:59.300 --> 28:02.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's kind of a conflict in the things we're taught here.
[28:02.720 --> 28:03.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely not.
[28:03.760 --> 28:04.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely not.
[28:04.440 --> 28:11.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Like you said, though, this one wrong doesn't merit another person or country doing the same wrong.
[28:12.980 --> 28:15.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because in the end, we're all going to lose.
[28:16.540 --> 28:17.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: In the bigger picture.
[28:17.560 --> 28:17.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[28:18.140 --> 28:18.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks so much for calling, sir.
[28:19.160 --> 28:20.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[28:21.060 --> 28:23.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[28:23.580 --> 28:27.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you get a busy signal, just hit the speed dial button and wait till you get through.
[28:28.220 --> 28:36.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I've been reading the reports saying how incredibly things are going, you know, how no Americans are being killed.
[28:36.840 --> 28:38.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, only about five Americans are being killed.
[28:38.640 --> 28:41.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've got 20,000 prisoners of war already.
[28:41.160 --> 28:43.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're doing incredibly well in this war here.
[28:45.440 --> 28:52.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: That makes it all the more difficult, you know, to try to figure it all out.
[28:53.480 --> 28:59.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, first of all, why are we so surprised at the way things are going?
[28:59.800 --> 29:10.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've been saying all along that a ground war in the Gulf would result in many casualties and so far we have less than 10.
[29:12.040 --> 29:12.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: Why is that?
[29:15.140 --> 29:19.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Were the Iraqis really as well equipped as we said they were?
[29:19.480 --> 29:30.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, they're sending these huge lumbering Scud missiles, you know, over to Israel and it's, you know, become such a thing that no one even cares about anymore.
[29:30.520 --> 29:47.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: it's like, oh look, another Scud missile lands in the middle of the desert, doesn't hurt anybody and 20,000 prisoners of war, they're throwing down their arms and running into our grasp.
[29:48.700 --> 29:51.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, how do we interpret this?
[29:51.980 --> 29:56.600]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do they simply not pose as much of a military threat as we said they did?
[29:56.620 --> 30:00.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if that is true, did we really not know this?
[30:02.480 --> 30:15.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or did we seek to simply play it up so we could go in there with all this force and all this public support and in the end simply overrun a country that was no match for us to begin with?
[30:17.240 --> 30:26.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: Or is there something around the corner waiting for us that's going to make us regret ever having gotten involved in this?
[30:26.260 --> 30:26.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: what's your opinion?
[30:28.780 --> 30:29.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[30:29.840 --> 30:30.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good afternoon.
[30:31.760 --> 30:39.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: That the war is a terrible thing, certainly no one can argue, and that we're all going to die is another foregone conclusion at some time in our lives.
[30:40.320 --> 30:45.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the thing I get to is this idea of freedom of speech in this country and all the freedoms.
[30:46.180 --> 30:54.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Today, we don't have as many newspapers, so we shake a little because of that, although we know that the newspapers have censorship and points of view and so on.
[30:54.320 --> 31:06.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm thinking that apropos of the nature of society, the way people are, you know, you were talking about the people with the ribbons and the people who are pro-war and then the people who are anti-war.
[31:07.060 --> 31:21.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost as if, even though we have this freedom sense of being able to express your opinion, nevertheless, it's like you're all right if you are amongst your friends and say what you have to say and then you feel you have a community.
[31:21.480 --> 31:27.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: But if you are amongst others, it's almost inevitable that you cannot change their viewpoints.
[31:27.620 --> 31:33.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: They feel so strongly that it's like the emotional rush of insulin or whatever it is.
[31:33.520 --> 31:43.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost as if it reminds me of in the old days when Malcolm X was talking and there was the talk of certain states that would be given over to the Afro-American people.
[31:43.300 --> 31:44.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?
[31:44.540 --> 31:44.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[31:45.040 --> 31:45.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, I'm listening.
[31:46.020 --> 32:07.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking that it's almost as if even though we all believe in the United States of freedom of speech and freedom of press and so forth and freedom of religious, you know, orientation, it's almost as if we would be the United States of America but over here in this area would be the people or the pro-warists and then in this area of the United States and that way,
[32:07.900 --> 32:27.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: because I mean, we live in this quote democracy and we have this system where voting, whoever has that upper percentage of over 50% or the larger percentage, those are the people who have the power and they are like they've been delegated to control all of the people.
[32:27.680 --> 32:35.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: So we really live in what amounts to trying to be rational in an irrational world, if you'll forgive me.
[32:35.920 --> 32:37.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you see my point?
[32:37.280 --> 32:37.560]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[32:37.820 --> 32:40.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: I wish you'd argue with me because I don't like to think that it's true.
[32:41.620 --> 32:44.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I wish a reason could triumph.
[32:44.980 --> 33:01.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I read Saddam Hussein's speech about how he said this happened and so he reacted this way and then this happened and he reacted this way and he himself apparently, even though he's accused of being a fascist and has killed many people, I guess, or been responsible,
[33:02.080 --> 33:25.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: nevertheless, he feels that he's like doing what you would call the rightest thing for, you might say, his delegation, Well, I believe that he honestly feels that he's right and there's a way to deal with people that you completely disagree with who think they're 100% right and George Bush has certainly not dealt with him in that way.
[33:26.080 --> 33:35.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: He's given him ultimatum after ultimatum which is the one thing that I think everybody knows that Saddam Hussein does not deal well with is ultimatums.
[33:36.060 --> 33:44.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a recommendation I made, but I'm a little voice, I said Mandela should have been brought in to sort of try to at least come up with alternatives.
[33:44.860 --> 33:45.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[33:45.680 --> 33:48.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, but that's largely a symbolic thing.
[33:48.420 --> 33:54.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: I wish we could come up with a solution rather than that this thing would have happened because it was almost inevitable.
[33:54.720 --> 33:56.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's another thing that I see.
[33:56.540 --> 34:00.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost as if these things just must happen.
[34:00.540 --> 34:03.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, what do you mean when you say just must happen?
[34:03.140 --> 34:05.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are you saying that nothing was going to prevent it?
[34:05.140 --> 34:07.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: There was like no chance of it being any other way.
[34:08.120 --> 34:08.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know?
[34:08.660 --> 34:13.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, in other words, let me throw this out to you because I've been trying to get an answer.
[34:13.800 --> 34:31.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: I believe that George Bush and his brain trust, if I can use that term, I know it pertains to FDR and so on, but his people who are advising him are not looking at the present or the past exactly, but rather the future.
[34:31.700 --> 34:50.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, they have like characterized if this force is happening and that happens and this happens and happens, there will be this one-sixth or one-fifth of the world that will be under the sway of a pan-Arab, pan-Islamic world.
[34:50.360 --> 34:55.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not saying that there aren't millions of Muslims who are like kind and gentle people.
[34:56.140 --> 35:02.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I feel badly I won't be able to see the mosques that have been blown up and meet the people who have been destroyed for that matter.
[35:02.980 --> 35:22.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the point is that I think that they are playing power politics, but not on the basis of even, although the past does influence the present and then the future, it is the sense of the future that they are like even this religious thing, the rapture and all.
[35:22.320 --> 35:25.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: All that plays into, like, the future.
[35:25.340 --> 35:29.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, in other words, if Saddam Hussein got an atomic bomb, for instance, can you answer me?
[35:29.800 --> 35:31.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are we going to invade Iraq?
[35:31.720 --> 35:38.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are we going to barf justice and execute them for war crimes and things like that?
[35:38.980 --> 35:40.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's a very interesting question.
[35:40.740 --> 35:42.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: It brings back memories.
[35:42.720 --> 35:44.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: It brings back memories.
[35:44.360 --> 35:55.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm honest enough to admit that W, what is it, NYC, you know, NPR, they did have somebody discussing it a little.
[35:55.760 --> 35:59.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't think, I mean, I don't even know where we're going to stop.
[35:59.800 --> 36:02.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that's a very good question.
[36:02.600 --> 36:14.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, as far as invading Iraq and getting Saddam Hussein and trying him, it reminds me of nothing more than the whole Noriega fiasco of last year.
[36:15.100 --> 36:17.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we invaded Panama to get one man.
[36:18.100 --> 36:20.100]  [EVILCORLEY]: Are we now going to invade Iraq to get one man?
[36:20.140 --> 36:24.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what we're going to discuss as soon as we return here on Talkback.
[36:24.920 --> 36:28.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: The phone number is 212-279-3400.
[36:28.580 --> 36:29.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we'll be right back.
[36:32.360 --> 36:33.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Stop the U.S.
[36:33.540 --> 36:33.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: war.
[36:34.040 --> 36:38.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: More than 20,000 dead and the genocide continues with every hour of the bombing.
[36:38.900 --> 36:41.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Raise the cry, no more killing in our name.
[36:42.120 --> 36:46.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: Come to an emergency demonstration this Monday, February 25th, 5 p.m.
[36:46.840 --> 36:51.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: at the Times Square recruiting station, 43rd Street and Broadway, in Manhattan.
[36:51.560 --> 36:55.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: This has been a public service on behalf of the Coalition to Stop U.S.
[36:55.160 --> 36:56.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Intervention in the Middle East.
[36:56.720 --> 37:00.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: For more information, call 777-1246.
[37:00.780 --> 37:03.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's 777-1246.
[37:03.800 --> 37:05.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: No more genocide in our name.
[37:14.330 --> 37:16.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's going on right now.
[37:16.690 --> 37:19.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: The facts, oh, y'all, because you're watching that garbage.
[37:20.510 --> 37:23.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, before I get to that Manningly Strawberry thing...
[37:23.570 --> 37:26.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, why do you even pay harm to his cube by putting these monkeys on?
[37:26.970 --> 37:28.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's in my brain now.
[37:28.490 --> 37:33.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Nobody has asked about what the grievances of the black community is on these television programs.
[37:33.550 --> 37:35.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, you're a philosopher?
[37:35.410 --> 37:36.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's in my brain now.
[37:37.070 --> 37:39.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Always check up after me because...
[37:43.030 --> 37:45.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now it's your turn to talk back.
[37:45.270 --> 37:47.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mondays through Thursdays at 4.30 p.m.
[37:48.230 --> 37:49.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Turn off your set.
[37:49.550 --> 37:52.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Tune to 99.5 on the FM dial.
[37:52.470 --> 37:53.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sit by a phone.
[37:53.610 --> 37:55.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: And get ready to talk back.
[37:55.630 --> 37:56.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Weekdays at 4.30.
[37:56.830 --> 38:00.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Only on listener-supported, commercial-free WBA-IFM.
[38:05.730 --> 38:07.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this is Talk Back.
[38:07.250 --> 38:08.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: Emmanuel Goldstein here.
[38:08.890 --> 38:12.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we will return to the phone calls in just a moment.
[38:12.630 --> 38:16.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: I wanted to play one thing for you that we got off the shortwave today.
[38:17.170 --> 38:18.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is from the BBC.
[38:19.030 --> 38:22.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it kind of describes a bit of what we're talking about today.
[38:24.530 --> 38:27.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: overconfidence with the American public.
[38:28.510 --> 38:30.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Actually, it's what we're going to be discussing.
[38:30.430 --> 38:32.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're sort of touching upon it now.
[38:32.210 --> 38:33.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: But let's listen to what they have to say.
[38:34.030 --> 38:37.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: This was monitored about two and a half hours ago.
[38:39.210 --> 38:40.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the BBC.
[38:41.170 --> 38:44.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[38:44.990 --> 38:47.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're listening to the BBC World Service.
[38:48.390 --> 38:55.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Speaking at the White House a short while ago, President Bush said the operation to liberate Kuwait was on course and on schedule.
[38:55.870 --> 38:59.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: He said the Allies had the initiative and intended to keep it.
[38:59.270 --> 39:03.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: But he said they must guard against euphoria as there were battles yet to come.
[39:04.130 --> 39:11.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: The President is receiving regular updates on the progress of the war and is said to be gratified by the pace and effectiveness of the operation.
[39:12.630 --> 39:18.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Officials in Washington have, however, begun to dampen expectations about a quick end to the conflict.
[39:18.270 --> 39:20.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: From Washington our correspondent Diana Goodman.
[39:21.690 --> 39:34.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although the initial news blackout announced by the Pentagon has been relaxed enough to allow some television film of the ground offensive to be broadcast here none of it so far has shown the Allied troops engaged in close combat.
[39:34.290 --> 39:52.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: That fact coupled with the upbeat official assessments given about the first day of the fighting has led to a surge in public confidence that the war may soon be over but officials are now moving to reduce those expectations stressing that the Allies have not yet taken on the Republican Guard and that the U.S.
[39:52.830 --> 39:55.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: forces could still suffer heavy casualties.
[39:55.850 --> 40:04.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: The White House spokesman Marlon Fitzwater said that although President Bush was proud of the way the operation was going he still had the anxiety that went with war.
[40:05.090 --> 40:12.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right through the conflict in the Gulf the Bush administration has been trying to strike a careful balance in maintaining public confidence that U.S.
[40:12.630 --> 40:19.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: military might will prevail while at the same time preparing the American people for any increase in the number of dead and wounded.
[40:19.730 --> 40:30.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: The note of caution being introduced indicates that the White House believes the scales may be tipping too far on the side of confidence and the message now going out is that the war is not yet won.
[40:31.190 --> 40:39.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: A commentary on Moscow Radio said the Americans had begun the ground offensive in haste an indication that they could be planning to dominate the region.
[40:39.990 --> 40:47.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: The radio said an Iraqi withdrawal could have been achieved on the basis of the Soviet plan without launching a large-scale war.
[40:48.110 --> 41:00.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that was from the BBC earlier today talking about the overconfidence that's spreading around the nation sort of reminiscent of what happened right after the air war began.
[41:01.170 --> 41:10.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: And it's funny when the government has to tell the press and the people calm down things aren't that good.
[41:11.270 --> 41:12.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know that makes me worry.
[41:12.910 --> 41:13.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: That makes me worry quite a bit.
[41:15.810 --> 41:20.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'd also like to hear what people are seeing in various bits of the media.
[41:20.250 --> 41:27.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Of course we all watch NBC, CBS, ABC and we all get upset when we realize that they're not covering certain aspects of it.
[41:27.790 --> 41:29.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I've heard this from both sides actually.
[41:29.430 --> 41:36.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's kind of hard for me to believe that people that are pro-war would be upset with the coverage on the networks but it's true, they are.
[41:37.310 --> 41:39.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: But then again they seem to be upset just about all the time anyway.
[41:41.730 --> 41:46.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sometimes you'll find some pretty good things in the alternate media.
[41:47.430 --> 41:50.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: Sometimes you'll simply find mediocre things in the alternate media.
[41:51.470 --> 42:05.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: One thing that I saw over the weekend which I thought was terrific was absolutely incredible and made me gain the strength to keep going for a little while longer was a college newspaper.
[42:05.870 --> 42:10.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: College newspaper at the State University at Stony Brook called the Stony Brook Press.
[42:10.790 --> 42:12.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: Do you know what they put on their front cover?
[42:13.370 --> 42:14.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's the most incredible thing.
[42:15.030 --> 42:16.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's something that will really get your attention.
[42:18.130 --> 42:22.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: A stark naked person full frontal nudity and all.
[42:22.290 --> 42:25.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: This is a drawing with an American flag.
[42:26.090 --> 42:35.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: the words Oh Say Can You See and this person's eyes are covered by a yellow ribbon.
[42:36.510 --> 42:38.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Blindfolded by a yellow ribbon.
[42:39.570 --> 42:42.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the inside of the paper matches the covers.
[42:42.890 --> 42:46.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of commentary a lot of coverage.
[42:47.630 --> 42:54.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean I wish people would look at this and use it as a model for the national press.
[42:54.110 --> 43:06.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: you know obviously improving the typeface a bit and improving the you know the budget and the coverage area and all that kind of thing but it's good to see that there's spirit in some places where you don't expect to find it.
[43:08.150 --> 43:13.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: I suggest people scour their newsstands and look for those alternative voices.
[43:13.350 --> 43:18.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this newspaper I guess you can call them.
[43:19.050 --> 43:21.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: They'll probably send it to you if you ask them nicely.
[43:23.030 --> 43:31.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: Stony Brook Press 516-632-6451 and that's another thing.
[43:31.670 --> 43:43.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know it's good to encourage people that put out alternative perspectives of things because that's what we're supposed to be all about is alternative perspectives and of course here at WBAI we're nothing but alternative perspectives.
[43:45.150 --> 43:56.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: Speaking of alternative perspectives let's go back to the phones and see if anyone out there can convince me to join the mainstream and make me happy.
[43:57.470 --> 44:02.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400 And the phone is not picking up.
[44:02.770 --> 44:03.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, good afternoon.
[44:03.910 --> 44:14.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: having come back from Israel experiencing scuds you have to understand that
[44:23.470 --> 44:29.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: and that maybe a few people were killed thank God but if 500 people were killed you would have been happy.
[44:31.010 --> 45:00.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now we would of course like to see people upset when women and children are killed in Kuwait as much as they get upset seven women and children who killed in Baghdad and that you don't find on this station but as far as you're concerned your decision to your decision to at least try to be convinced I would say this the person who sent those scud missiles in in a number of years will have the
[45:00.590 --> 45:11.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: capacity to develop long range missiles capable of carrying biological chemical and nuclear this is not It may not happen next year, but in a number of years.
[45:12.190 --> 45:14.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't see this about oil.
[45:14.990 --> 45:32.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just see this about geopolitical, about someone in the region capable of using petrodollars not to improve the lives of his people, but to use those dollars to accumulate nuclear, biological and chemical potential, and the means to deliver.
[45:32.910 --> 45:34.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You say you're for peace.
[45:36.390 --> 45:38.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Neville Chamberlain was for peace, too.
[45:39.570 --> 45:44.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: You say that those people who oppose your position are for war.
[45:45.630 --> 45:47.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is an element.
[45:47.290 --> 45:57.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are some people who are for peace, and it's peace at any price, and at some point a war has to be fought because they're for peace at any price.
[45:57.110 --> 46:02.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are other people who are for war, which, if fought, could result in peace.
[46:04.290 --> 46:18.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: I find that people who are against war sometimes are a little bit contradictory in that they're for the ANC, and they're for the IRA, and they're for the PLO, and they're for other so-called liberation movements.
[46:19.430 --> 46:22.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Either you're against violence, or you're for violence.
[46:23.010 --> 46:26.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those people who are for those liberation movements, I've heard them on this station.
[46:27.110 --> 46:29.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not saying you are, I've heard them on the station.
[46:29.190 --> 46:34.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those people also are saying that war sometimes is necessary to defeat an enemy.
[46:35.730 --> 46:43.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, I don't know if that does it for you, but it seems to me that Hussein is enough of an enemy, whether oil exists in the region or not, that he should be stopped.
[46:44.150 --> 46:45.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's my feeling.
[46:45.010 --> 46:45.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well...
[46:45.490 --> 46:46.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: What do you say about that?
[46:46.550 --> 46:52.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, I'd say that I agree that war is necessary under certain conditions.
[46:52.230 --> 46:59.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: If, for instance, you're invaded by a hostile force, you have to defend yourself, quite obviously.
[46:59.230 --> 47:05.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you're trying to gain independence, and negotiations are ignored, you've got to do something, obviously.
[47:06.830 --> 47:18.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: My problem with this particular conflict, why is it that all of a sudden, this August, we suddenly realized, hey, Saddam Hussein has the capability to do all these nasty things.
[47:18.710 --> 47:23.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Where were we the last ten or so years when this was being built up?
[47:23.250 --> 47:29.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: It just seems hypocritical at this stage to suddenly say, this guy is the next Hitler.
[47:29.930 --> 47:34.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: When we saw it coming, we could have done something about it and avoided a war altogether.
[47:34.570 --> 47:36.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, let me just respond.
[47:36.650 --> 47:37.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're absolutely correct.
[47:37.770 --> 47:41.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Soviets were the big aiders of Iraq, but we helped too.
[47:43.110 --> 47:44.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why did we help?
[47:44.250 --> 47:48.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: We saw him as a person in our interest opposing Iran.
[47:48.390 --> 47:50.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what if we were back in the 1930s?
[47:50.810 --> 47:52.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, we had dealings with Germany.
[47:52.890 --> 47:56.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: But at a certain point, we said, hey, wait a minute, we have created a monster.
[47:56.770 --> 47:57.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: We should have realized it.
[47:58.070 --> 47:58.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were stupid.
[47:59.210 --> 48:00.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were short-sighted.
[48:00.930 --> 48:02.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we have created a monster.
[48:02.590 --> 48:03.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again.
[48:03.610 --> 48:04.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: What should we do?
[48:04.490 --> 48:08.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Should we say, well, look, we helped him and we really have to be consistent?
[48:08.690 --> 48:13.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or should we say, wait a minute, now this monster is much greater than what we expected.
[48:13.590 --> 48:14.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's got to be stopped.
[48:16.450 --> 48:24.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think the difference is that we knew we were creating a monster, except we thought it was going to be a monster for us, and not a monster against us.
[48:24.410 --> 48:26.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And as soon as this monster talks back...
[48:26.290 --> 48:28.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then we discover that it's a monster against us.
[48:28.170 --> 48:28.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what do we do?
[48:28.770 --> 48:30.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do we say, let's be consistent?
[48:31.950 --> 48:33.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which means we could be dead.
[48:33.710 --> 48:36.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or should we say, hey, we better change our policy?
[48:37.070 --> 48:38.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see what I'm trying to say?
[48:38.210 --> 48:42.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: I see what you're saying, but I just don't see war as the only way to accomplish this.
[48:42.730 --> 48:46.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think the, you know, strangling the military is...
[48:46.310 --> 48:49.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: We got involved when Japan attacked us.
[48:49.850 --> 48:50.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it was self-defense.
[48:51.110 --> 48:53.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: But at the same time, we declared war on Germany.
[48:53.930 --> 48:55.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, Germany didn't come into the United States.
[48:56.190 --> 48:57.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why did we fight with Germany?
[48:57.750 --> 49:00.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was a war against Japan, which attacked us.
[49:00.810 --> 49:05.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: See, there's sometimes you have to fight a war, even though you're not being attacked directly.
[49:05.190 --> 49:12.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you see, I don't buy the comparison with World War II, because I do not see Saddam Hussein as anything nearer Hitler.
[49:12.470 --> 49:14.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that's really...
[49:15.090 --> 49:16.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's the problem.
[49:16.350 --> 49:20.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the Oxford Union debates that went on in the 30s talked about pacifism.
[49:20.910 --> 49:22.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: It talked about peace in our time.
[49:22.390 --> 49:24.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: It talked about wars to end all wars.
[49:25.010 --> 49:25.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, World War I.
[49:25.850 --> 49:29.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they said to themselves, look, why should we go ahead and fight this guy?
[49:29.650 --> 49:31.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because he's not in our backyard.
[49:31.530 --> 49:42.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: But Saddam Hussein, with the petrodollars that he accumulates, can develop intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of striking Southern Europe, well into North Africa.
[49:42.310 --> 49:43.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, Israel obliterated.
[49:44.110 --> 49:46.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, at some point, you're going to have to stop him.
[49:46.230 --> 49:47.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Forget about the oil business.
[49:47.370 --> 49:50.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: At some point, you're going to have to stop him, or at some point, you're going to have to stop helping him.
[49:51.410 --> 49:51.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[49:52.050 --> 49:52.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you know what?
[49:52.690 --> 49:53.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we stopped helping him?
[49:54.590 --> 49:55.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: This year.
[49:55.470 --> 49:55.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: This year.
[49:55.950 --> 49:57.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, why did we wait so long?
[49:57.830 --> 49:58.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we're stupid.
[49:59.170 --> 49:59.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[49:59.590 --> 50:00.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: But let's admit, we're stupid.
[50:00.910 --> 50:01.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'll settle for that.
[50:01.790 --> 50:02.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Settle from there.
[50:03.610 --> 50:04.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, take care.
[50:04.570 --> 50:05.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[50:05.210 --> 50:05.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[50:07.470 --> 50:08.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yeah, we're stupid.
[50:09.110 --> 50:10.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: I can agree with that.
[50:10.570 --> 50:11.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: We are stupid.
[50:18.690 --> 50:25.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: To leaders of South Africa, and all kinds of despotic regimes in Asia, and Africa, and South America.
[50:27.010 --> 50:28.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's just going to keep happening and happening.
[50:28.950 --> 50:38.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Until they, you know, talk back to us, and that's not a pun as to the title of this program, until they talk back, and then we say, oh, you're evil.
[50:38.290 --> 50:39.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's like the teacher's pet, you know?
[50:39.670 --> 50:46.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: As soon as the teacher's pet starts acting like a wise guy, you know, you want to punish him all the more.
[50:47.370 --> 50:48.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's what happened.
[50:48.930 --> 50:52.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Saddam Hussein was the teacher's pet of sorts.
[50:52.570 --> 50:57.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: And now he's said, you're not going to tell me what to do.
[50:57.330 --> 50:58.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'll do what I want.
[50:59.370 --> 51:00.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know.
[51:00.170 --> 51:08.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't buy the argument that this is a parallel to World War II, and I think that does a tremendous disservice to anyone that survived World War II.
[51:08.970 --> 51:10.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, Hitler was Hitler.
[51:11.230 --> 51:13.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: For God's sake, let's not forget that.
[51:14.150 --> 51:16.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Saddam Hussein is no Hitler.
[51:16.170 --> 51:20.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Hitler was invading countries left and right.
[51:22.130 --> 51:32.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Saddam Hussein has invaded one tiny country that arguably, and I don't support this view, but you could argue it, was once part of Iraq.
[51:34.430 --> 51:37.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, of course, it's about economics.
[51:37.350 --> 51:42.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not about freedom, democracy.
[51:43.250 --> 51:47.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Kuwait had a standard of living ten times as great as that of Iraq.
[51:48.430 --> 51:49.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many Kuwaitis are there?
[51:49.930 --> 51:51.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many do you think there are?
[51:51.170 --> 51:55.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: How many people of Kuwaiti origin do you think live in Kuwait?
[51:55.970 --> 51:56.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'll tell you this.
[51:56.850 --> 51:59.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's less than the number of soldiers that are there now.
[51:59.030 --> 52:06.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: 70% of Kuwait was comprised of foreigners, many of whom were Iraqis, many of whom were Palestinians.
[52:08.150 --> 52:20.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: So it's not a case of this innocent little country sitting there, running things fairly and democratically, being overrun by this Hitler.
[52:21.330 --> 52:22.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, it's not that clear-cut.
[52:22.990 --> 52:24.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, there was an invasion.
[52:24.230 --> 52:27.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, one government was overtaken by another.
[52:29.310 --> 52:31.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: And no, it was not nice.
[52:31.470 --> 52:32.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: It was not fair.
[52:33.010 --> 52:35.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: But it's the kind of thing that happens everywhere.
[52:35.250 --> 52:42.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the only difference here, the only difference here, is that Kuwait was a particularly rich country.
[52:42.970 --> 52:47.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: They had a very high standard of living, a higher standard of living than we do here in this country.
[52:48.810 --> 52:51.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: And they had lots and lots of oil.
[52:52.870 --> 52:56.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's something that I see as fact.
[52:57.110 --> 52:59.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't see that as something debatable.
[53:01.150 --> 53:07.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: And as long as that fact remains, I don't understand how we can justify a war.
[53:10.250 --> 53:10.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: 2793400.
[53:10.810 --> 53:12.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[53:12.310 --> 53:12.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're on.
[53:13.050 --> 53:13.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi.
[53:14.190 --> 53:14.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[53:15.390 --> 53:16.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have a quote for you.
[53:16.810 --> 53:17.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[53:17.770 --> 53:19.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of course people don't want a war.
[53:19.530 --> 53:26.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why should some poor slob risk his life in a war, when the most he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
[53:27.450 --> 53:30.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: The leaders of a country determine the policy.
[53:30.550 --> 53:43.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
[53:43.790 --> 53:55.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: All you have to do is to tell them that they're being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
[53:55.770 --> 53:58.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: It works the same in any country.
[53:58.690 --> 53:59.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Who said that?
[54:00.590 --> 54:01.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who said that?
[54:01.930 --> 54:02.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a guess.
[54:03.470 --> 54:04.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: You want me to guess?
[54:04.970 --> 54:06.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I'm sure it's going to surprise me.
[54:07.390 --> 54:07.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Herman Goering.
[54:08.190 --> 54:08.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry?
[54:09.070 --> 54:09.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Herman Goering.
[54:10.170 --> 54:10.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Really?
[54:10.950 --> 54:11.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[54:12.830 --> 54:14.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: And what are your personal views?
[54:15.390 --> 54:21.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I want to tell you, this weekend I was, well, I'm against the war.
[54:21.210 --> 54:24.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was told I was not supporting my country.
[54:24.870 --> 54:28.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, I mean, the views I was expressing at that point were mild.
[54:28.950 --> 54:42.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just said, you know, we really can't afford this, and there must be some other way with all of our resources to have, you know, settle this without, you know, having this big conflict.
[54:42.350 --> 54:42.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-uh.
[54:42.830 --> 54:43.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: You can't say that.
[54:44.050 --> 54:44.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: Nope.
[54:44.990 --> 54:48.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: You cannot say that and be a God-fearing American.
[54:48.670 --> 54:52.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the problem is, you see, I have relatives in the Gulf.
[54:52.650 --> 54:56.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, you know, I said, I don't want my relatives to die over this nonsense.
[54:57.050 --> 55:00.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, like, I was not supporting my country.
[55:00.730 --> 55:09.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, I think sort of like the discussion just stopped because I think if he went on, I would have really punched him.
[55:09.830 --> 55:16.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was so furious because how dare anyone tell me that I'm not supporting my country just because I'm against this war?
[55:17.410 --> 55:20.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're supporting your country as long as you speak for what you feel is right.
[55:21.050 --> 55:23.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, and I've lived here all of my life.
[55:24.010 --> 55:25.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, this is the United States.
[55:25.650 --> 55:31.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're supposed to be able to, you know, give my, I'm allowed my opinion.
[55:32.270 --> 55:34.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, I mean, I was floored.
[55:34.230 --> 55:35.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really was.
[55:39.330 --> 55:40.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[55:40.250 --> 55:42.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, what's really, what has happened to our country?
[55:42.970 --> 55:49.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think you had a thing with Major Owens that was rebroadcast, I think, from Riverside Church.
[55:49.510 --> 55:55.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: He said, you know, what have we become when the only way we can settle anything is through the barrel of a gun?
[55:56.330 --> 56:01.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: We do seem to be very eager to do that in just about every situation now.
[56:01.630 --> 56:05.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if the New World Order is indeed with us now...
[56:05.430 --> 56:06.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, that's another Nazi phrase.
[56:06.870 --> 56:11.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: I thought the New World Order, and yeah, forgive the phrase, but I thought the New World Order was...
[56:11.450 --> 56:12.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it's also, Gary.
[56:12.210 --> 56:14.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: ...symbolized a time of peace, not a time of war.
[56:15.050 --> 56:18.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yet the New World Order seems to mean nothing but threats.
[56:18.390 --> 56:20.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the threats are coming from us, so we feel good about it.
[56:20.790 --> 56:23.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: But let's look at how the rest of the world feels about this.
[56:24.330 --> 56:28.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, I used to sort of monitor, like, the BBC and...
[56:29.070 --> 56:30.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, you know, like French Radio Radio.
[56:30.950 --> 56:39.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really stopped listening to the world media, even the BBC, because I used to, you know, look to the BBC as at least a balanced view.
[56:40.530 --> 56:41.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: And now, even today...
[56:42.430 --> 56:44.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, they're more of a balanced view than we are still.
[56:45.030 --> 56:46.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, well, yeah, that's true.
[56:47.130 --> 56:49.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it's the one that comes on at 5 o'clock.
[56:50.250 --> 56:52.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I listen to News Desk, they have.
[56:52.690 --> 56:53.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: And there's a...
[56:54.350 --> 56:57.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can't remember, the one that comes on at 5 o'clock, that's an hour long?
[56:57.370 --> 56:58.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, 24 hours?
[56:58.290 --> 56:58.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[56:58.810 --> 56:59.130]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[56:59.390 --> 57:02.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, there's a lot of good programs on shortwave, and they're worth listening to.
[57:02.550 --> 57:03.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Radio Netherlands has some interesting things.
[57:04.070 --> 57:06.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, yes, even Radio Moscow provides some...
[57:06.230 --> 57:07.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: What, Radio Moscow?
[57:07.890 --> 57:11.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I think also the Christian Science Monitor Radio.
[57:11.630 --> 57:11.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[57:12.090 --> 57:13.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's a fairly new service, yes.
[57:13.790 --> 57:14.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[57:14.950 --> 57:21.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, I mean, as far as our news media here, I mean, I cannot listen to CBS, or, you know, I can't listen to...
[57:21.830 --> 57:25.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, the local news here has really made me physically ill.
[57:25.430 --> 57:30.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, just the gung-ho flag-waving, it's... that's not what journalism is all about.
[57:30.830 --> 57:31.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not supposed to be.
[57:31.770 --> 57:35.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're not supposed to applaud the president at a press conference when he gives some nationalistic statement.
[57:36.410 --> 57:38.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's not what this country is supposed to be all about.
[57:39.250 --> 57:40.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: The press is supposed to be investigating things.
[57:40.990 --> 57:42.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: It doesn't question him at all.
[57:42.450 --> 57:46.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you know, things he said are, you know, just taken unquestionably.
[57:46.270 --> 57:50.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that really upsets me, that the press has just capitulated.
[57:50.890 --> 57:53.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you know, you can make a difference.
[57:53.090 --> 57:57.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: I've gotten into numerous discussions with people at various TV stations.
[57:57.630 --> 58:00.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if nothing else, you're at least making them talk to you.
[58:00.990 --> 58:05.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: And if ten people call up, then you're taking up ten times as much of their time.
[58:05.690 --> 58:08.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: If a hundred people call up, they will start to take notice.
[58:08.250 --> 58:09.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: But you've got to call them.
[58:09.590 --> 58:10.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: You've got to call them.
[58:11.430 --> 58:13.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: So if you see something you don't like, call them.
[58:13.770 --> 58:14.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Same thing here.
[58:14.630 --> 58:17.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you hear something on this station you don't like, call us and tell us.
[58:17.530 --> 58:18.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Difference is we put you on the air.
[58:19.210 --> 58:22.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, try doing that on Channel 4.
[58:23.070 --> 58:24.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, no.
[58:24.190 --> 58:25.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, try doing that on Channel 4.
[58:25.650 --> 58:26.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who knows?
[58:26.370 --> 58:26.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who knows?
[58:26.950 --> 58:27.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: But you've got to try.
[58:27.810 --> 58:33.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Was it the late night of the one on CBS that comes on the town meeting, I think?
[58:34.090 --> 58:34.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: America Tonight?
[58:34.910 --> 58:36.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: America Tonight, something like that.
[58:36.230 --> 58:36.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[58:37.050 --> 58:37.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let me ask you something.
[58:37.610 --> 58:38.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, did you go to Washington, D.C.
[58:38.870 --> 58:40.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: at all for any of the rallies?
[58:40.830 --> 58:41.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: No.
[58:41.890 --> 58:44.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: I will go to the one on March 16th.
[58:44.550 --> 58:45.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think they're having one.
[58:45.630 --> 58:49.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's the most incredible thing, and I say this to anybody else that's considered going.
[58:49.790 --> 58:52.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Before that rally, you know, I was really depressed.
[58:52.470 --> 58:55.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: I felt there was something wrong with me because of the feelings that I had.
[58:55.670 --> 58:57.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I guess it's kind of like coming out of the closet.
[58:58.410 --> 59:08.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, you feel like you have these feelings of questioning the war, and everybody else is going around happily waving flags and tying ribbons around trees and things like that.
[59:08.790 --> 59:10.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: And you wonder, what's wrong?
[59:10.610 --> 59:21.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: Then you go to Washington, D.C., and you see a quarter of a million people there of all different walks of life marching together peacefully, you know, just spouting various views, not all agreeing.
[59:22.490 --> 59:24.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: You feel great when you come back from something like that.
[59:24.990 --> 59:29.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: You realize there's a lot of people out there that are questioning this, and that is true patriotism.
[59:30.010 --> 59:31.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: That really is.
[59:31.250 --> 59:32.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we wave flags as well.
[59:32.910 --> 59:34.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: We had yellow ribbons as well.
[59:34.070 --> 59:35.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: But we were open.
[59:35.830 --> 59:37.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: We were open to disagreement.
[59:37.310 --> 59:38.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: We were open to questioning.
[59:39.230 --> 59:46.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do the people that you, you know, raving these yellow flags and yellow ribbons, do they have relatives in the Gulf?
[59:47.610 --> 59:48.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: Some do.
[59:48.430 --> 59:48.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: Some don't.
[59:49.190 --> 59:54.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, there's so many of them over there that I think people of all persuasions have relatives over there.
[59:54.870 --> 01:00:01.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: So far, I haven't run into people who are, you know, like, so gung-ho in this war who do have relatives there.
[01:00:02.290 --> 01:00:02.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's interesting.
[01:00:03.450 --> 01:00:04.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's my person, you know, like...
[01:00:04.750 --> 01:00:07.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I run into people that say they have relatives over there.
[01:00:07.150 --> 01:00:11.450]  [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, there's no way to prove it, but I believe that there are people that do have relatives there.
[01:00:11.910 --> 01:00:17.170]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, people say their brother is there, and if they were, you know, 10 years older, they'd go over there too.
[01:00:18.750 --> 01:00:19.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's...
[01:00:19.630 --> 01:00:21.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of people do have relatives over there.
[01:00:21.350 --> 01:00:26.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think it's something that one particular side has, you know, has a claim to.
[01:00:27.850 --> 01:00:29.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not so sure.
[01:00:29.270 --> 01:00:30.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think that's...
[01:00:30.770 --> 01:00:40.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe the next time someone, you know, I've come across someone who, you know, is so gung-ho, I'll say, well, you know, who's over there that you know?
[01:00:40.310 --> 01:00:42.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or, you know, do you have a relative there?
[01:00:42.750 --> 01:00:45.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's one thing that I do like about the way this whole thing...
[01:00:45.390 --> 01:00:47.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you know, the armed forces or something like that.
[01:00:47.370 --> 01:00:52.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: If there's one thing that I can point to that I do like, it's that we have personified this war.
[01:00:52.150 --> 01:00:54.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: We are showing the faces of the people that are over there.
[01:00:54.890 --> 01:00:58.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, I'm kind of sick of saying, you know, yeah, I support our troops.
[01:00:58.930 --> 01:01:00.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't want to think of them as troops.
[01:01:00.350 --> 01:01:02.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: I want to think of them as people that live here.
[01:01:02.670 --> 01:01:03.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, our friends, our neighbors.
[01:01:04.650 --> 01:01:11.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, a lot of people are very unforgiving to those that joined up without realizing there would be a war.
[01:01:12.090 --> 01:01:14.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you joined the army, of course you've got to be prepared for war.
[01:01:14.710 --> 01:01:22.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of people joined because they had no other way out of the ghetto, out of a dead-end job.
[01:01:22.570 --> 01:01:23.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, it was their only hope.
[01:01:23.990 --> 01:01:29.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: And they would never have done this had they thought that any kind of military conflict was imminent.
[01:01:29.530 --> 01:01:31.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, yes, I do feel sorry for those people.
[01:01:31.470 --> 01:01:33.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: I do consider them to be hostages of a sort.
[01:01:33.930 --> 01:01:37.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I hope to God this ends quickly.
[01:01:37.750 --> 01:01:40.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: And this madness will be over once and for all.
[01:01:40.410 --> 01:01:42.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't think it's going to end quickly.
[01:01:42.570 --> 01:01:44.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think it's going to be very, very bloody.
[01:01:45.130 --> 01:01:45.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:01:45.410 --> 01:01:48.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think that George Bush has wanted a war from the beginning.
[01:01:48.410 --> 01:01:51.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I said, you know, I told people this in September.
[01:01:52.090 --> 01:01:54.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And unfortunately, I've been proved right.
[01:01:54.250 --> 01:01:56.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: The thing that really upsets me, and I'm going to go to another call.
[01:01:57.050 --> 01:02:02.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: The thing that really upsets me is that, damn it, Hussein said he would leave Kuwait on Saturday.
[01:02:02.530 --> 01:02:03.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: He said he would leave.
[01:02:03.770 --> 01:02:06.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: He could have gotten away without all of this bloodshed.
[01:02:06.530 --> 01:02:07.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: We got what we wanted.
[01:02:08.130 --> 01:02:16.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: And the Soviet Union is to thank for that because they were able to get Hussein to not link it to the Palestinian issue, which was the big thing for us.
[01:02:18.350 --> 01:02:19.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: But that wasn't good enough for us.
[01:02:19.790 --> 01:02:21.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: We had to set this high noon deadline.
[01:02:22.590 --> 01:02:26.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I shouldn't say us because it really doesn't represent everybody.
[01:02:27.650 --> 01:02:28.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, thanks very much for calling.
[01:02:29.170 --> 01:02:30.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we're going to go on to another call now.
[01:02:30.790 --> 01:02:32.910]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[01:02:32.910 --> 01:02:44.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I also want to take a quick look at today's paper concerning those of us who question, those of us who have doubts.
[01:02:45.830 --> 01:02:53.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: The morning after the ground war started, congregants at St. Agnes Cathedral in Rockville Center, New York, had little patience for peace.
[01:02:53.950 --> 01:03:04.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: Over and over, angry churchgoers shouted, argued, or simply shook their heads in disgust at a tiny band of anti-war protesters led by local peace activist Kathy Boylan.
[01:03:05.570 --> 01:03:06.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: We all want peace.
[01:03:07.090 --> 01:03:09.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who doesn't want peace, said Steve Lang of Rockville Center.
[01:03:10.210 --> 01:03:13.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: But you can't always have peace by running from war.
[01:03:13.570 --> 01:03:15.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: We could not run from Hitler.
[01:03:16.790 --> 01:03:28.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Across Long Island, people pulled themselves to church and the bagel shop just like any other Sunday, but it was with hearts resolute in a war that they felt must be prosecuted or heavy with the knowledge it had begun.
[01:03:29.250 --> 01:03:35.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: Kathy Boylan and her three companions carried signs reading, Thou shalt not kill and God forgive U.S.
[01:03:36.110 --> 01:03:36.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: war criminal.
[01:03:37.970 --> 01:03:40.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: Protesting what they said was the church's silence on the war.
[01:03:41.770 --> 01:03:52.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: God has commanded us not to kill our brothers and sisters, said Boylan, a Wyandanche resident who had spent time in the Iraqi desert on a peace vigil before the air war broke out January 17th.
[01:03:52.610 --> 01:03:54.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I have to say, that is true courage.
[01:03:54.470 --> 01:04:00.150]  [EVILCORLEY]: Going somewhere where there is a war and demonstrating for peace.
[01:04:00.570 --> 01:04:04.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: Demonstrating for peace while bombs are exploding around you.
[01:04:04.630 --> 01:04:05.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: That takes guts.
[01:04:07.450 --> 01:04:10.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Boylan continued, We're here to remind fellow Catholics that the U.S.
[01:04:10.730 --> 01:04:12.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: is breaking God's law.
[01:04:12.250 --> 01:04:14.530]  [EVILCORLEY]: The diocese has taken a neutral position.
[01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:17.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: They found no sympathy.
[01:04:19.110 --> 01:04:24.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: Terry Graff of New York City ran toward Boylan and shouted in her face, You should be ashamed of yourselves.
[01:04:24.790 --> 01:04:27.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: There are people over there getting killed for you.
[01:04:27.530 --> 01:04:28.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: What you are is disgusting.
[01:04:31.250 --> 01:04:37.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: Later in the day, about 15 people held anti-war signs on the busy Westbury Corner of Old Country and Glen Cove Roads.
[01:04:38.170 --> 01:04:43.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: One sign, directed at President George Bush, said, Okay, okay, you're not a wimp.
[01:04:43.930 --> 01:04:45.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now can we have peace?
[01:04:46.210 --> 01:04:51.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: I feel very supportive of the troops, but against war, said one of the protesters, Dolores Coleman of Uniondale.
[01:04:53.070 --> 01:04:58.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: But the opinions of many Long Islanders were much more bellicose than even those stated by the U.S.
[01:04:58.690 --> 01:04:58.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: government.
[01:04:59.050 --> 01:05:03.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: Many said they believed the war should target Iraqi President Saddam Hussein personally.
[01:05:05.250 --> 01:05:09.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not a nice thing to pray for that Saddam dies, but that is my prayer.
[01:05:10.710 --> 01:05:17.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: That said Kay Argentine, 65 years old, as she left the King of Kings Lutheran Church in Melville yesterday morning.
[01:05:18.210 --> 01:05:25.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: At the Bagel Shalit in Comec, Valerie Hedwig of Bayshore said that she believed Hussein had to be a target of the war.
[01:05:25.230 --> 01:05:28.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: You don't leave your enemy behind, she said.
[01:05:29.750 --> 01:05:37.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Robert Zimmerman, president of the American Jewish Congress, Long Island region, said the liberation of Kuwait without the removal of Hussein gained nothing.
[01:05:38.590 --> 01:05:47.090]  [EVILCORLEY]: If Hussein and his military machine are still left with potential, then no region in the Middle East is free from his terrorist and aggressive behavior, he said.
[01:05:47.910 --> 01:05:50.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: But local Arabs were troubled by such talk.
[01:05:51.730 --> 01:05:55.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: Iraq invaded Kuwait and that was wrong, said Matt Kay...
[01:05:57.490 --> 01:05:58.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: I can't say it.
[01:05:58.690 --> 01:05:59.670]  [EVILCORLEY]: Matt Kay, I will say.
[01:06:00.350 --> 01:06:04.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: 35 years old, a long beach engineer and a naturalized U.S.
[01:06:04.110 --> 01:06:05.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: citizen who was born in Syria.
[01:06:06.470 --> 01:06:10.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: But we are there now to see the destruction of Saddam and his army, which is not right.
[01:06:10.650 --> 01:06:16.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: It is a reconstruction of the world to favor the West because we don't have money and power in Arab hands.
[01:06:19.030 --> 01:06:29.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: Eza Abed, a Palestinian-American active in local Palestinian and Arab issues, said the United States may achieve victory in war but lose the greater battle for regional stability.
[01:06:29.730 --> 01:06:32.790]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have no peace, no political settlement, no withdrawal.
[01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:35.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have a war and the aims of the U.S.
[01:06:35.290 --> 01:06:37.230]  [EVILCORLEY]: government have quite obviously changed.
[01:06:37.810 --> 01:06:40.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: Bush makes it clear about his new world order.
[01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:45.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: If they are talking about stability, peace in the region, the opposite will be the case.
[01:06:46.630 --> 01:07:00.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: While the clerics at King of Kings and St. Agnes only briefly touched on the war in their services and their congregations expressed strong support for its escalation, things were decidedly different at the Mount Sinai Baptist Church in Roosevelt.
[01:07:01.490 --> 01:07:09.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think war is horrible whether it's in the air or on the ground, said the Reverend Dr. Arthur McKay in his sermon.
[01:07:09.210 --> 01:07:13.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: We still support our president but we must find other ways to resolve our problems.
[01:07:13.910 --> 01:07:16.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: We must pray for our boys and girls to come home.
[01:07:17.390 --> 01:07:21.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry our president moved so fast and did not give negotiations more time.
[01:07:22.390 --> 01:07:29.510]  [EVILCORLEY]: Many members of the congregation agreed with the minister and said they were concerned about fellow blacks who make up a large segment of the ground forces.
[01:07:30.410 --> 01:07:35.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: These are people's children, sons, and husbands, said Joanne Carey of Roosevelt.
[01:07:36.150 --> 01:07:40.750]  [EVILCORLEY]: And a lot of blacks are over there because they're the ones who sign up when there are no jobs.
[01:07:42.630 --> 01:07:53.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: But in the malls and bagel shops where many Long Islanders congregate, it's kind of interesting Long Islanders congregating in a mall and bagel shop on a Sunday.
[01:07:54.910 --> 01:08:01.410]  [EVILCORLEY]: The mood was strongly in favor of the violent armored thrusts and airborne assaults that were launched in the Middle East.
[01:08:02.490 --> 01:08:12.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: News of the ground war prodded sluggish sales of the $16 shirts and American flag buttons at the Team Connection in the Smithhaven Mall in Lake Grove, employees said.
[01:08:13.530 --> 01:08:19.030]  [EVILCORLEY]: When something big happens, people come out and show interest, said Susan Nykam, the manager.
[01:08:19.330 --> 01:08:27.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: At the Bagel Master Store in the Elwood Center in Elwood, Michael Drew of Dix Hills said he found the news of the attack happy and uplifting.
[01:08:28.430 --> 01:08:31.210]  [EVILCORLEY]: I just hope we take light casualties, he said.
[01:08:32.170 --> 01:08:37.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: Safety seemed to be the common ground reached between the coffee shop conversation and the religious services.
[01:08:38.530 --> 01:08:40.690]  [EVILCORLEY]: At St. Agnes, the Reverend Donald E.
[01:08:40.830 --> 01:08:44.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Babinski made only a brief reference to the war at his 10.30 a.m.
[01:08:44.470 --> 01:08:44.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: mass.
[01:08:44.970 --> 01:08:51.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: For a just and lasting peace in the Persian Gulf and the safety of all our troops and civilians, we pray to God.
[01:08:51.570 --> 01:08:53.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: The congregation answered Amen.
[01:08:55.810 --> 01:09:06.490]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I say, what a shame, that we would pray for the safety of our side and the total destruction of their side.
[01:09:06.610 --> 01:09:07.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's not...
[01:09:07.350 --> 01:09:11.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: If you believe in religion, that is not what it's all about.
[01:09:16.230 --> 01:09:17.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I was in Washington, D.C.
[01:09:17.710 --> 01:09:22.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: this weekend and I was walking around realizing this city is at war.
[01:09:22.310 --> 01:09:28.770]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, there's one city on this side, pretty much, and one city on the other side and that is Baghdad.
[01:09:28.890 --> 01:09:30.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: And what a difference between the two.
[01:09:30.690 --> 01:09:34.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: What a difference between what's going on in Baghdad and what's going on in Washington, D.C.
[01:09:35.050 --> 01:09:37.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: People ride the metro, read the paper.
[01:09:37.430 --> 01:09:39.250]  [EVILCORLEY]: They don't even know what's going on.
[01:09:40.170 --> 01:09:44.630]  [EVILCORLEY]: No such luxury in the city that we are destroying.
[01:09:46.210 --> 01:09:47.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we are destroying a city.
[01:09:48.130 --> 01:09:49.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're destroying a country.
[01:09:49.650 --> 01:09:52.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're doing it in the name of freedom and democracy.
[01:09:55.190 --> 01:09:58.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, I don't know how long we can keep that charade up.
[01:10:02.260 --> 01:10:06.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: As I said before, it's cowardice, I think.
[01:10:06.340 --> 01:10:11.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's cowardice to send people over to fight a war without having any idea of what a war is about.
[01:10:13.340 --> 01:10:16.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: And war is not simply invading and shooting.
[01:10:17.820 --> 01:10:21.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: War is civilians living in terror.
[01:10:22.240 --> 01:10:23.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've never had to deal with that.
[01:10:24.360 --> 01:10:28.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've never had to have anything other than Pearl Harbor.
[01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:33.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've never had to have our cities bombed and destroyed right in front of us.
[01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:36.960]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've never had to cower in bomb shelters.
[01:10:38.480 --> 01:10:43.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: We've never had to count our family members at the end of each day to make sure they're all still alive.
[01:10:44.380 --> 01:10:45.520]  [EVILCORLEY]: That is war.
[01:10:45.740 --> 01:10:47.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's what it's all about.
[01:10:47.940 --> 01:10:53.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And to just blithely send our troops over there and say, come back soon and do a good job.
[01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:55.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: It's not war.
[01:10:55.540 --> 01:10:56.800]  [EVILCORLEY]: You're sending them off to work.
[01:10:57.880 --> 01:11:01.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: And hopefully they'll come back at the end of their working day.
[01:11:02.580 --> 01:11:03.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's not war.
[01:11:07.540 --> 01:11:08.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: 279-3400.
[01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:10.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: 279.
[01:11:10.500 --> 01:11:11.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[01:11:11.560 --> 01:11:12.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Turn on your radio, please.
[01:11:12.620 --> 01:11:13.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[01:11:13.400 --> 01:11:38.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I see red when they tell me that Saddam Hussein is going to have this and that five years from now when they really have no consideration or any desire to solve problems which really will be serious a few years from now like AIDS and global warming and homelessness.
[01:11:39.180 --> 01:11:43.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, who knows how many homeless we're going to have five years from now.
[01:11:44.280 --> 01:11:49.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, Bush is a, what I call a corporate cutthroat.
[01:11:49.940 --> 01:11:54.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: and they've been pulling strings in America for many, many years.
[01:11:55.080 --> 01:12:19.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I can tell you a story about my uncle who worked in the first agency of the United Nations about 45 years ago, ANRA, United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration and Fiorello LaGuardia was the director of that administration sometime after he was mayor and ANRA,
[01:12:19.100 --> 01:12:28.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration used to buy non-strategic materials for our allies in World War II.
[01:12:29.280 --> 01:12:42.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: So one day my uncle and mayor LaGuardia or ex-mayor LaGuardia were buying faucets and pipes for Leningrad which was undergoing Nazi bombardment.
[01:12:43.020 --> 01:13:13.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they were in Youngston, Ohio and they were going over to the people who were making pipes out of steel and they said to them the women the mothers and children of Leningrad need pipes because when they need water they have to walk down five or six or seven flights of stairs they have to go to a well and pump up the water well would you believe it that there wasn't one corporation
[01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:27.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: in Non-strategic materials of pipes or faucets, because they were communists.
[01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:36.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: So these corporate cutthroats have been pulling the strings in America for a long time.
[01:13:36.500 --> 01:13:42.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And as far as I'm concerned, George Bush is just another corporate cutthroat.
[01:13:43.360 --> 01:13:46.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Number two, I want to talk about the left wing of America.
[01:13:46.940 --> 01:13:53.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's been bandaged up for a long time, and it's been under attack for a long time.
[01:13:54.180 --> 01:13:59.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: The left wing of the eagle really doesn't exist.
[01:13:59.420 --> 01:14:01.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's only a right-winged eagle.
[01:14:02.180 --> 01:14:05.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this has been going on for a long time.
[01:14:05.180 --> 01:14:10.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And one manifestation of that is the attack on our great unions today.
[01:14:11.160 --> 01:14:15.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: The Daily News strike in New York is an example of that.
[01:14:15.580 --> 01:14:16.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: Very good example.
[01:14:16.160 --> 01:14:24.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Where they are really trying something they've never tried before, to destroy nine great unions.
[01:14:25.650 --> 01:14:30.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, the first strike I've ever seen that wasn't started by the unions.
[01:14:30.400 --> 01:14:33.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: The management pretty much went out on strike, and the unions followed.
[01:14:33.920 --> 01:14:34.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: Correct.
[01:14:34.460 --> 01:14:35.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's how I see that as well.
[01:14:35.580 --> 01:14:37.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's part of a tactic.
[01:14:37.260 --> 01:14:46.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I also think that it's because the left wing has been so crippled and has been so fragmented.
[01:14:47.080 --> 01:14:54.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there are even, as you know, so many people in the unions that don't know what unionism is all about.
[01:14:54.320 --> 01:14:58.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, they think early retirement and medical benefits.
[01:14:58.900 --> 01:15:05.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, I think a lot of the weakness of the left can be blamed on the factionalism that has developed.
[01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:13.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: All the infighting and different splits, and if there was some unification, there would be a stronger leftist movement in this country.
[01:15:14.100 --> 01:15:14.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[01:15:14.460 --> 01:15:15.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's the biggest...
[01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:17.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I agree with you.
[01:15:18.660 --> 01:15:21.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Another story I'd like to tell you about cholera.
[01:15:21.640 --> 01:15:27.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, if I was in George Bush's place and I heard the word cholera, I would stop the war immediately.
[01:15:27.440 --> 01:15:34.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's the depth of my sensitivity, because I can tell you an interesting story about my mother in cholera.
[01:15:34.980 --> 01:15:39.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: She was two years old during the Russian Civil War, and they lived in Russia.
[01:15:39.740 --> 01:15:44.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And my grandparents were merchants in the town of Militoba.
[01:15:44.460 --> 01:15:54.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And one day, during the Civil War, this white guard Russian battalion moved into this town and started searching all the houses.
[01:15:54.340 --> 01:16:03.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they came upon my mother, a little girl of two years old, and the commander, or the sergeant, said, Where are your parents?
[01:16:03.740 --> 01:16:06.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: She said, Oh, they're resting in bed.
[01:16:06.060 --> 01:16:07.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: They have cholera.
[01:16:07.500 --> 01:16:14.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Would you believe that the entire battalion moved out of that town within a few minutes?
[01:16:14.460 --> 01:16:19.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's what a deadly, what a deadly thing that is.
[01:16:19.400 --> 01:16:28.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if I was president of the United States, and I heard about cholera, I would just withdraw immediately.
[01:16:28.740 --> 01:16:34.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: And certainly, you know, what Bush did on Saturday was outrageous.
[01:16:34.700 --> 01:16:37.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: What someone said on your station is very true.
[01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:42.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Someone said, It was like Gary Cooper in High Noon.
[01:16:42.280 --> 01:16:46.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: But nobody... but Gary Cooper had to go it alone.
[01:16:46.520 --> 01:16:50.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: And George Bush, unfortunately, has many, too many allies.
[01:16:51.160 --> 01:16:52.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is unfortunate.
[01:16:53.100 --> 01:16:54.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: It certainly is.
[01:16:54.200 --> 01:16:56.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Mr. Goldstein, it's been nice speaking to you.
[01:16:57.080 --> 01:16:57.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:16:58.020 --> 01:16:58.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bye.
[01:17:04.700 --> 01:17:21.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: And at 279-3400, a question that I've been mulling over, let's say things continue to go nice and smoothly, and there are no more casualties, and only 10 people die in this war on our side.
[01:17:22.680 --> 01:17:26.940]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's say everything comes out as nice as it could possibly come out for us.
[01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:33.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: My, again, somewhat naive question is, what happens next?
[01:17:34.460 --> 01:17:36.980]  [EVILCORLEY]: What happens when the next conflict comes up?
[01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:39.640]  [EVILCORLEY]: When will the next conflict come up?
[01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:47.860]  [EVILCORLEY]: And what kind of state of mind are all of our militarist citizens here going to be in?
[01:17:48.860 --> 01:17:50.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, is Cuba next?
[01:17:51.100 --> 01:17:52.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Think about it.
[01:17:52.340 --> 01:17:56.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: What would stop us from invading Cuba?
[01:17:56.940 --> 01:17:58.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're right next to us.
[01:17:58.340 --> 01:17:59.700]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're not our friends.
[01:18:00.020 --> 01:18:02.160]  [EVILCORLEY]: We already have a military base there.
[01:18:03.140 --> 01:18:06.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: And they could pose a distinct threat to this country.
[01:18:08.020 --> 01:18:09.760]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, first stop, Iraq.
[01:18:10.600 --> 01:18:12.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: Who knows where the second stop will be?
[01:18:13.480 --> 01:18:14.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[01:18:15.160 --> 01:18:15.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello.
[01:18:16.540 --> 01:18:17.300]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:18:18.060 --> 01:18:18.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:18:19.460 --> 01:18:23.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would like to answer a few points that you raised at the beginning of the show.
[01:18:24.360 --> 01:18:29.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: How come the Americans can go over there and do all these things?
[01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:30.000]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:18:30.100 --> 01:18:30.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: Try to speak up.
[01:18:30.980 --> 01:18:31.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:18:31.360 --> 01:18:31.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is it better?
[01:18:32.020 --> 01:18:32.540]  [EVILCORLEY]: Much better.
[01:18:32.780 --> 01:18:33.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:18:33.180 --> 01:18:36.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: You were raising some questions as to how come we go and...
[01:18:36.700 --> 01:18:37.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: They can go...
[01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:38.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: And not we go.
[01:18:38.340 --> 01:18:41.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: They can go and destroy the bridges and all that kind of stuff.
[01:18:41.940 --> 01:18:45.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's something very into the American culture.
[01:18:45.860 --> 01:18:47.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's very ethnocentric.
[01:18:47.480 --> 01:18:49.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Even the education system.
[01:18:49.280 --> 01:18:50.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Everything is very ethnocentric.
[01:18:50.860 --> 01:18:53.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Everything is very Eurocentric.
[01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:54.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Everything is about Europe.
[01:18:54.900 --> 01:18:55.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: The contribution of Europe.
[01:18:56.320 --> 01:18:59.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: And nobody else has made any other contributions to the world.
[01:18:59.580 --> 01:19:01.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Nobody else exists besides them.
[01:19:02.180 --> 01:19:07.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And nobody else is worth anything besides them.
[01:19:07.500 --> 01:19:11.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's very much part of the American culture, the American values.
[01:19:11.860 --> 01:19:17.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yes, in fact, I see that quite a bit in the contrast between the number of casualties.
[01:19:17.440 --> 01:19:21.740]  [EVILCORLEY]: One American life is worth 10,000 Arab lives, is the feeling that I get.
[01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:25.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: I get very angry because I remember when the war started, I couldn't sleep at night.
[01:19:26.020 --> 01:19:32.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I went out, talked to my friends in school, and they were telling me, oh, we're praying for the American troops last night.
[01:19:32.800 --> 01:19:36.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: I said, well, American life is not the only life that is precious.
[01:19:36.240 --> 01:19:38.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Every human life is precious.
[01:19:38.380 --> 01:19:43.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: My thought was with the Iraqi last night because they were the one being bombed out anyway after all.
[01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:48.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: You were just out up there on your plane, but they were the one, the bomb were being dropped on.
[01:19:48.320 --> 01:19:49.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: So that person to me, well, you're right.
[01:19:50.060 --> 01:19:53.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Every human life is precious, and no one lives...
[01:19:53.240 --> 01:19:58.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: They have this idea that anywhere in the third world, our lives is expendable.
[01:19:58.520 --> 01:20:08.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: They can just go in there, swap our lives, bomb our school, bomb our hospital, and walk around all in all their arrogance.
[01:20:08.580 --> 01:20:10.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: That made me so angry.
[01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:13.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I look at it very much as part of the American culture.
[01:20:14.120 --> 01:20:18.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Nothing else, if it's not Europe, if it's not the United States, this is not important.
[01:20:18.860 --> 01:20:22.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Even when a plane blows up, the first question they ask, how many Americans there were there?
[01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:24.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like that's the only thing that's worth.
[01:20:24.780 --> 01:20:27.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the only thing that meant something.
[01:20:27.080 --> 01:20:30.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I don't know how long they can go with that kind of thinking.
[01:20:31.100 --> 01:20:32.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have to imagine a few of them.
[01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:40.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: This kind of thinking will continue as long as we have our isolationist view, where we only care about the American point of view.
[01:20:40.440 --> 01:20:43.140]  [EVILCORLEY]: We don't open ourselves up to other cultures.
[01:20:43.140 --> 01:20:44.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: We don't learn other languages.
[01:20:44.660 --> 01:20:48.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: We don't care what happens in the rest of the world unless it affects us.
[01:20:48.180 --> 01:20:54.260]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's what's unhealthy, and that's what leads to major, major problems in the future.
[01:20:55.020 --> 01:20:59.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because, to me, it's, as I said before, they went over there.
[01:21:00.040 --> 01:21:08.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: It seems like they can always go over there in the, quote, unquote, third world and find some villain they ought to go and kill.
[01:21:08.580 --> 01:21:11.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Last year, the villain was Manuel Noriega.
[01:21:11.360 --> 01:21:12.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: So they had to go get him.
[01:21:12.800 --> 01:21:14.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: So when they got him, we got him.
[01:21:14.240 --> 01:21:20.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, to me, they never found any, any, there is a bit of racism, not a bit, there's quite a bit of racism in there, too.
[01:21:20.740 --> 01:21:23.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: They never found any white person that is a villain.
[01:21:23.560 --> 01:21:26.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's always someone of color that is a villain.
[01:21:26.800 --> 01:21:30.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Look at all the things that South Africa has done to the black people over there.
[01:21:30.840 --> 01:21:36.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they're yet to make a villain out of Dick Clark or any one of their clique that were there before.
[01:21:36.100 --> 01:21:37.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're yet to make a villain out of him.
[01:21:37.740 --> 01:21:42.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they very quickly can come up with some villain, some Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and everything else.
[01:21:42.940 --> 01:21:43.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who's next?
[01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:45.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: You wonder, what about the world order?
[01:21:45.380 --> 01:21:46.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: I question, what's the new world order, too?
[01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:48.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because I am not from this country.
[01:21:49.140 --> 01:21:51.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I still have relatives in my country.
[01:21:51.760 --> 01:21:54.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I do wonder, what's their intent?
[01:21:54.400 --> 01:21:57.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And when I see them clapping, they're going to go kick ass.
[01:21:57.280 --> 01:22:00.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what's coming from the White House.
[01:22:00.240 --> 01:22:01.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're going to go kick ass.
[01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:06.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: To me, it's so repulsive, so arrogant.
[01:22:06.460 --> 01:22:09.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm like, who's over there?
[01:22:09.220 --> 01:22:16.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the way they're talking to other people, like earthy metham, like we are their kid, their little kid, and we ought pretty much like their slave.
[01:22:16.320 --> 01:22:18.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: We ought to get into whatever they ask us to do.
[01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:32.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: To me, this is nothing but a new form of slavery, a new form of domination, and a new form of domination coupled with their missiles, and their fighter bomber, and their A-16, and all their arrogance.
[01:22:33.060 --> 01:22:33.680]  [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:38.820]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I thank you very much for expressing your anger, because that's very important.
[01:22:40.160 --> 01:22:40.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yep.
[01:22:40.760 --> 01:22:41.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[01:22:41.360 --> 01:22:41.580]  [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:22:41.700 --> 01:22:42.200]  [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:22:43.580 --> 01:22:45.280]  [EVILCORLEY]: And yes, we have to be angry.
[01:22:45.780 --> 01:22:47.620]  [EVILCORLEY]: We have to express that anger.
[01:22:47.720 --> 01:22:49.500]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that caller did it very eloquently.
[01:22:50.540 --> 01:22:53.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Because these are people.
[01:22:53.980 --> 01:22:55.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: People just like us.
[01:22:56.040 --> 01:22:57.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, they have different cultures.
[01:22:57.460 --> 01:22:58.380]  [EVILCORLEY]: They have different values.
[01:22:58.520 --> 01:22:59.460]  [EVILCORLEY]: They have different beliefs.
[01:22:59.620 --> 01:23:01.880]  [EVILCORLEY]: But they are people just like us.
[01:23:01.880 --> 01:23:04.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: They were created in pretty much the same way.
[01:23:06.860 --> 01:23:22.180]  [EVILCORLEY]: And not only the civilians, but those soldiers sitting in the desert, waiting to die, or running out and surrendering, or God knows what.
[01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:27.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're as precious as the soldiers that we send over there.
[01:23:27.540 --> 01:23:28.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: They're just as human.
[01:23:29.440 --> 01:23:31.060]  [EVILCORLEY]: Except we've lost sight of that.
[01:23:31.060 --> 01:23:36.220]  [EVILCORLEY]: But we've lost sight of that, because this has become an us-versus-them kind of a thing.
[01:23:37.500 --> 01:23:39.120]  [EVILCORLEY]: Now, I don't think it's...
[01:23:39.120 --> 01:23:40.840]  [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think this is a battle over freedom.
[01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:44.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think South Africa proves that, number one.
[01:23:47.120 --> 01:23:48.920]  [EVILCORLEY]: And Kuwait proves that, number two.
[01:23:49.060 --> 01:23:50.440]  [EVILCORLEY]: Kuwait was not a free country.
[01:23:52.040 --> 01:23:53.340]  [EVILCORLEY]: Kuwait had a lot of oil.
[01:23:54.060 --> 01:23:54.900]  [EVILCORLEY]: It still does.
[01:23:56.780 --> 01:23:58.400]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we want control over that region.
[01:24:00.340 --> 01:24:02.040]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think if we actually...
[01:24:02.040 --> 01:24:04.240]  [EVILCORLEY]: By we, I mean the government of this country.
[01:24:04.280 --> 01:24:08.720]  [EVILCORLEY]: I think if our government actually admitted that and said, yeah, we're over there for oil, okay?
[01:24:09.320 --> 01:24:10.480]  [EVILCORLEY]: Anybody have a problem with that?
[01:24:10.540 --> 01:24:12.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: Most people wouldn't have a problem with that.
[01:24:12.200 --> 01:24:14.320]  [EVILCORLEY]: Most people would say, yeah, we're over there for oil.
[01:24:14.460 --> 01:24:15.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: Kick ass.
[01:24:16.700 --> 01:24:30.420]  [EVILCORLEY]: I went to that pro-war rally, and, you know, people were giving speeches and cheering the flag, and I realized, I realized these people really think it's just a football game.
[01:24:31.100 --> 01:24:32.020]  [EVILCORLEY]: And that's all.
[01:24:33.160 --> 01:24:38.080]  [EVILCORLEY]: We're over there to defeat them and to come back and have a ticker tape parade.
[01:24:41.590 --> 01:24:44.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: Again, war is so much more than that.
[01:24:44.610 --> 01:24:45.650]  [EVILCORLEY]: So much more.
[01:24:46.730 --> 01:24:51.950]  [EVILCORLEY]: And I think once somebody experiences it, I'd like to hear from people.
[01:24:52.710 --> 01:25:00.330]  [EVILCORLEY]: We don't have time, of course, to hear from people now, but I'd like to hear from people that have been in a war from the civilian point of view.
[01:25:00.510 --> 01:25:02.830]  [EVILCORLEY]: Let's see if we can go through some more calls real quickly.
[01:25:03.730 --> 01:25:04.470]  [EVILCORLEY]: Good afternoon.
[01:25:05.710 --> 01:25:06.350]  [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:25:07.130 --> 01:25:07.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, hi.
[01:25:08.090 --> 01:25:08.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[01:25:09.610 --> 01:25:11.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: I really felt a previous caller's anger.
[01:25:12.190 --> 01:25:14.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I feel the same way she does.
[01:25:14.290 --> 01:25:16.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just wanted to say it's just interesting.
[01:25:16.190 --> 01:25:22.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe what this country really needs is just a terrible thing to say, but the overwhelming anger and frustration that I feel living here right now.
[01:25:22.910 --> 01:25:24.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they need to have a bomb dropped.
[01:25:25.270 --> 01:25:28.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you know, I said the exact same thing.
[01:25:28.270 --> 01:25:33.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I probably would be lynched if I went out in the street and said this, but Americans just do not seem to have the callousness.
[01:25:33.970 --> 01:25:34.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yeah.
[01:25:34.490 --> 01:25:34.930]  [EVILCORLEY]: No, listen.
[01:25:35.030 --> 01:25:42.710]  [EVILCORLEY]: I said the exact same thing a couple of weeks ago, and I said to myself, this is a horrible thing to say, but it's what we need to wake us up because we are at war.
[01:25:42.930 --> 01:25:43.190]  [EVILCORLEY]: Damn it.
[01:25:43.290 --> 01:25:44.050]  [EVILCORLEY]: War is war.
[01:25:44.190 --> 01:25:46.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: And we don't know what the war is like.
[01:25:46.170 --> 01:25:49.430]  [EVILCORLEY]: So, yeah, we can say, oh, it's horrible that somebody would do something.
[01:25:49.630 --> 01:25:53.390]  [EVILCORLEY]: That would be terrorism if somebody dropped a bomb on civilians, but what the hell are we doing?
[01:25:53.530 --> 01:25:54.290]  [EVILCORLEY]: The same thing.
[01:25:54.390 --> 01:25:54.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: That's right.
[01:25:54.730 --> 01:25:55.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: We need to see...
[01:25:55.590 --> 01:25:56.810]  [EVILCORLEY]: War is a two-way street.
[01:25:56.970 --> 01:25:59.270]  [EVILCORLEY]: And right now, war has only been a one-way street.
[01:25:59.470 --> 01:26:07.990]  [EVILCORLEY]: So maybe if people knew how bad war can be, and we've never really known how bad war can be here, maybe then we wouldn't be so eager to jump into it.
[01:26:08.170 --> 01:26:09.070]  [EVILCORLEY]: Look at Germany.
[01:26:09.070 --> 01:26:09.730]  [EVILCORLEY]: Look at Japan.
[01:26:09.730 --> 01:26:12.590]  [EVILCORLEY]: They don't want to get into a war because they know what war is.
[01:26:12.770 --> 01:26:14.610]  [EVILCORLEY]: The Europeans know what war is.
[01:26:15.050 --> 01:26:15.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know?
[01:26:15.690 --> 01:26:16.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're not as gung-ho.
[01:26:16.790 --> 01:26:26.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, I happen to be an immigrant myself, and, you know, my parents lived through occupation, and, you know, I guess in some ways it's been passed on to me, but I'll tell you something.
[01:26:26.790 --> 01:26:39.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: As alienated as I feel in all of this, and I, you know, I really thank the fact that there is a station such as this because the overwhelming anger that I feel, I mean, I feel almost criminal impulses sometimes, and I am basically a pacifistic person,
[01:26:39.030 --> 01:26:45.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: but it's amazing, you know, that you go through all of these range of emotions that you never realize you're even capable of, you know?
[01:26:45.470 --> 01:26:46.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:26:46.250 --> 01:26:50.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it just, I mean, it overwhelms me to see the total disregard.
[01:26:50.110 --> 01:26:54.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, if you carry an American passport, you seem to have carte blanche throughout the whole world.
[01:26:54.410 --> 01:27:01.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, here we bombed the hell out of this country and as soon as he paraded a couple of POWs, we were appalled that he would have the nerve to do this.
[01:27:01.710 --> 01:27:05.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, the fact is that he wouldn't have done any of this had we not bombed in the first place.
[01:27:06.190 --> 01:27:09.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't understand why Americans can't see that, you know?
[01:27:09.550 --> 01:27:12.550]  [EVILCORLEY]: Did you happen to hear Margot Kidder's comments on that?
[01:27:12.550 --> 01:27:14.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, I was reading The Nation today.
[01:27:14.530 --> 01:27:19.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was reading, she wrote an article in The Nation and she wrote Confessions of a Baghdad Betty.
[01:27:19.930 --> 01:27:21.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: I have the article here.
[01:27:21.550 --> 01:27:25.890]  [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I just thought it was so incredible what she said about the rules of war.
[01:27:26.210 --> 01:27:33.850]  [EVILCORLEY]: You know, you have this war and you expect people to play by the rules but if somebody makes fun of a soldier that's violating the rules and war is so barbaric.
[01:27:33.950 --> 01:27:36.310]  [EVILCORLEY]: How can you have rules to something like that?
[01:27:36.770 --> 01:27:43.370]  [EVILCORLEY]: And so many people have jumped on her saying you're anti-American for saying that but I think maybe she's anti-American.
[01:27:43.510 --> 01:27:45.010]  [EVILCORLEY]: If she's anti-American then so am I.
[01:27:45.710 --> 01:27:50.870]  [EVILCORLEY]: But she's pro-human and pro-what's decent in the world and war is not decent.
[01:27:50.870 --> 01:27:57.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think that if anybody is really willing to be honest with themselves even if they're not willing to say it in public because they feel that they have to wave the American flag.
[01:27:57.730 --> 01:28:01.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is so obvious from the beginning that Bush had planned this all along.
[01:28:01.810 --> 01:28:06.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is so obvious particularly with the last piece thing that there was no reason for this.
[01:28:06.710 --> 01:28:12.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was never any reason for the bombing as far as I'm concerned but even now they had planned they had picked this war date.
[01:28:12.930 --> 01:28:14.970]  [EVILCORLEY]: Oh yeah there's no reason why this couldn't have been avoided.
[01:28:15.170 --> 01:28:21.110]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's no reason at the most it would have taken a week to iron things out but they would have been out of there they said they wanted to go.
[01:28:21.670 --> 01:28:24.570]  [EVILCORLEY]: There's no reason for this and yeah I agree with you.
[01:28:24.690 --> 01:28:24.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think...
[01:28:24.950 --> 01:28:35.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Your previous call he made such a wonderful he was talking about the misapplication of prophecy and I mean that was so beautiful you know they've used everything to manipulate the American mind You have 30 seconds by the way.