Off The Hook - 2003-09-10

[00:02.170 --> 00:04.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: You've been listening to FSRN.
[00:04.950 --> 00:06.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm Deepa Fernandes.
[00:10.420 --> 00:13.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thursday, September 11th at 6pm.
[00:13.620 --> 00:26.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Join us at the Riverside Church with former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, editor and publisher Mike Rupert, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, Dr. Faust Khan and John Judge for a film exhibit and forum, Reframing 9-11.
[00:26.920 --> 00:38.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the kickoff event for a weekend-long forum at the Riverside Church, exploring alternatives to the current path of endless war, environmental devastation, corporate welfare, and the dismantling of our U.S.
[00:38.180 --> 00:38.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Constitution.
[00:38.960 --> 00:45.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: This event is sponsored by WBAI, 9-11 Citizens Watch, and the WBAI program Ain't That Good News.
[00:45.640 --> 00:48.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Two years later, and it is obvious, the truth has been kept from us.
[00:49.020 --> 00:52.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Come to the Riverside Church at 490 Riverside Drive.
[00:52.380 --> 00:54.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Take the one of the 9 to 116th Street.
[00:54.620 --> 00:57.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a free event with suggested donation.
[00:57.400 --> 01:00.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Visit WBAI.org for more information.
[01:00.600 --> 01:01.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Seek truth.
[01:03.220 --> 01:04.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds like a good idea.
[01:04.760 --> 01:08.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is WBAI New York, where truth sometimes filters out.
[01:08.940 --> 01:11.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's time for Off The Hook.
[01:16.940 --> 01:21.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:22.360 --> 01:26.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:27.700 --> 01:29.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:30.480 --> 01:32.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if they could, they would.
[01:32.520 --> 01:35.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst.
[01:35.900 --> 01:37.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope that's understood.
[01:38.020 --> 01:38.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bum-diddly-bom!
[01:46.260 --> 01:47.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:47.840 --> 01:48.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[01:48.980 --> 01:51.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel, back here after six weeks away.
[01:51.760 --> 01:53.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's good to be back.
[01:53.260 --> 01:54.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope I...
[01:54.040 --> 01:55.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: That wasn't condescending what I just said about that.
[01:55.880 --> 01:57.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure it's sometimes filtering out.
[01:58.540 --> 02:05.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: What I meant was, you know, truth is such a rare commodity these days that if you listen to WBAI, you're going to hear the truth in ways you don't expect to hear the truth.
[02:05.760 --> 02:09.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, different types of things that you assume are true in a different way.
[02:09.740 --> 02:11.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, well, yeah, we all know.
[02:12.240 --> 02:13.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, yeah, I just got back.
[02:13.930 --> 02:15.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm still kind of jet-lagged.
[02:15.980 --> 02:16.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's weird, though.
[02:16.800 --> 02:18.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's weird being back in New York City after such a long time.
[02:19.040 --> 02:20.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: You just kind of, like, fall right back into it.
[02:20.820 --> 02:22.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I've been to so many weird places lately.
[02:22.560 --> 02:28.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've been to Minsk and Belarus and Moscow and St. Petersburg and all the Baltics and Poland.
[02:28.840 --> 02:29.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was all great.
[02:29.860 --> 02:30.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: It really was all amazing.
[02:31.400 --> 02:37.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the people there are very friendly, very diverse, interesting, and definitely want to go back.
[02:37.900 --> 02:39.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I recommend it to a lot of people.
[02:39.360 --> 02:40.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's good to have you back.
[02:40.640 --> 02:41.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you.
[02:41.200 --> 02:41.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
[02:42.660 --> 02:43.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: What have I missed?
[02:45.040 --> 02:45.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everything looks different.
[02:46.800 --> 02:47.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone's grown a beard.
[02:48.880 --> 02:50.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Gained about 30 pounds, looks like.
[02:51.280 --> 02:52.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I got a haircut.
[02:52.160 --> 02:53.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, I see.
[02:53.320 --> 02:54.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Very nice, very nice.
[02:54.180 --> 02:54.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Very dashing on you.
[02:55.020 --> 02:57.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is the back-to-school or asylum look.
[02:58.980 --> 03:01.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wow, you must be sick of back-to-schools by now.
[03:01.240 --> 03:04.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, no, today was the very first day that we came back.
[03:04.660 --> 03:06.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, you can only go back once, I know.
[03:06.480 --> 03:09.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm just saying, over the course of your life, you must be sick of all the back-to-schools.
[03:09.480 --> 03:09.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: No.
[03:09.980 --> 03:10.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[03:10.440 --> 03:10.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[03:10.660 --> 03:11.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, it's actually exciting.
[03:11.440 --> 03:13.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I used the summer to charge up and get ready.
[03:13.960 --> 03:14.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's good.
[03:14.720 --> 03:15.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's good.
[03:15.880 --> 03:18.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we have a full cast of characters here tonight.
[03:18.580 --> 03:19.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have Mike over there.
[03:20.020 --> 03:20.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[03:20.600 --> 03:21.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Red Hack.
[03:21.280 --> 03:21.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey.
[03:21.720 --> 03:22.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Evan.
[03:22.420 --> 03:22.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[03:22.780 --> 03:23.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Jim.
[03:23.200 --> 03:23.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[03:23.640 --> 03:24.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Mish.
[03:24.240 --> 03:24.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[03:24.620 --> 03:24.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: How you doing?
[03:25.840 --> 03:27.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, okay, well, let's start off.
[03:27.380 --> 03:30.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have a lot of material to cover tonight and only an hour to do so.
[03:31.020 --> 03:33.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: So let's start with what happened here in New York yesterday.
[03:34.840 --> 03:39.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was the appearance of our own hero, John Ashcroft, right?
[03:39.960 --> 03:42.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mike, tell us something about what was going on with that.
[03:42.320 --> 03:45.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: First of all, we were talking about the tour last week.
[03:45.320 --> 03:45.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[03:45.500 --> 03:48.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we asked our listeners to let us know if they found out anything.
[03:48.700 --> 03:49.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a bunch of them did.
[03:49.620 --> 03:51.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: We posted the story on the website.
[03:51.160 --> 03:54.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: But unfortunately, now, a week later, it's all over.
[03:54.340 --> 03:56.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that the tour is finished.
[03:56.540 --> 03:58.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm not sure about the town meetings.
[03:58.120 --> 03:59.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: They may still be going on.
[03:59.200 --> 04:00.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: The quote-unquote town meetings.
[04:00.380 --> 04:01.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're not telling anyone.
[04:01.500 --> 04:01.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[04:01.760 --> 04:03.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't tell anybody about the town meetings.
[04:03.500 --> 04:09.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And as Bernie told us last week, when they have the town meetings, they have a meeting in front of the town.
[04:09.080 --> 04:13.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they literally have their back to the town as they're talking to a crowd of people up on the podium.
[04:13.940 --> 04:15.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they don't take any input.
[04:15.420 --> 04:16.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's great and wonderful.
[04:16.640 --> 04:17.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's Soviet-style democracy.
[04:18.100 --> 04:18.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: It really is.
[04:18.670 --> 04:20.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: So what do you have on this tour business?
[04:21.100 --> 04:28.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's not exactly clear what John Ashcroft said inside because we weren't invited, not being members of law enforcement.
[04:28.580 --> 04:36.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it seemed to be the same old, same old, about how wonderful the PATRIOT Act is because it defends us from terrorists or something.
[04:37.360 --> 04:45.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: John Ashcroft had the nerve to say that he spoke at what's it called, Federal Hall, right here on Wall Street.
[04:46.190 --> 04:55.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he said that because we don't think the PATRIOT Act is such a good idea, that implies that we have forgotten how we felt on September 11, 2001.
[04:57.030 --> 05:02.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: The most interesting thing I have to say about this is actually the media coverage of this event.
[05:02.980 --> 05:07.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: The New York Times pretty much printed his speech, more or less.
[05:07.150 --> 05:09.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, they summarized it in parts and whatever.
[05:09.860 --> 05:11.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they talked about the heavy security.
[05:12.190 --> 05:19.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they mentioned that there were protesters, but the quotes from the protesters are reserved for the last and second-to-last paragraph.
[05:19.870 --> 05:20.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: What are those quotes?
[05:21.560 --> 05:25.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is from Rosalind Amelskoff.
[05:26.060 --> 05:26.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I'm sorry.
[05:29.210 --> 05:30.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're not quoted at all.
[05:30.420 --> 05:31.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: The signs are quoted.
[05:31.650 --> 05:34.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: The signs say, stop Ashcroft, defend the Constitution.
[05:34.680 --> 05:37.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the placards say, Ashcroft, go home.
[05:37.270 --> 05:39.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Leave our civil liberties alone.
[05:40.270 --> 05:50.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, just to break in, did you happen to see during a Rumsfeld press conference, there was a demonstrator, I think it was today, that jumped up and said, Mr. Rumsfeld, you're fired.
[05:50.620 --> 05:53.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was, I think, in front of the National Press Club.
[05:53.840 --> 05:57.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the interesting thing about this, it was, you know, it was good to hear this.
[05:57.900 --> 06:02.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was good to hear someone just speaking out in some way, even though it was disruptive to what he was trying to do.
[06:02.340 --> 06:07.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But in the middle of this, while this person was shouting, some people were shouting, go home.
[06:07.620 --> 06:08.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, who was shouting, go home?
[06:09.040 --> 06:09.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Members of the press?
[06:10.100 --> 06:12.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that appropriate to be shouting down a protest?
[06:12.920 --> 06:16.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Shouldn't they be covering the story and not injecting their own opinions?
[06:16.390 --> 06:19.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: If I understood it correctly, it was a press conference of some sort.
[06:19.890 --> 06:20.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe I was wrong.
[06:20.500 --> 06:21.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it's a different crowd of people.
[06:21.680 --> 06:24.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I just thought that was kind of weird.
[06:24.680 --> 06:29.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then, after that, he went on to talk about how, well, that was very interesting, wasn't it?
[06:29.080 --> 06:35.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But today, in Iraq, there's 5,000 newspapers coming out on every street corner, and everyone's free to say what they want.
[06:35.120 --> 06:39.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, this person, while he's saying that, is being dragged away, kicking and screaming and thrown into prison.
[06:39.980 --> 06:41.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's go to Iraq there.
[06:41.180 --> 06:43.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Freedom of speech there, I guess, is the message.
[06:43.440 --> 06:45.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, I guess that's the message he's saying.
[06:45.560 --> 06:58.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just wanted to contrast the Times with OY, a Spanish-language newspaper, which has a full-color photo on the cover of the protesters with lots of people in front of the courthouse.
[06:59.080 --> 07:01.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: An act of protest is the headline.
[07:01.400 --> 07:06.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then, inside on page 3, they do have an article about the speech itself.
[07:06.600 --> 07:12.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then, down below, they have a similarly long article about what people think about the PATRIOT Act.
[07:12.390 --> 07:19.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: They quote Pakistanis, people from the ACLU, United for Peace and Justice, people for the American way.
[07:19.660 --> 07:28.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then, over on the side, they have what is the PATRIOT Act, and an expansion of surveillance with fewer legal restrictions, and so on.
[07:28.360 --> 07:31.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, I just think it's an interesting contrast, one paper to the other.
[07:32.270 --> 07:36.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, OY is published by the same people that do Newsday.
[07:36.540 --> 07:39.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you would think Newsday would cover this as well.
[07:39.420 --> 07:41.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, Newsday is printed by the Los Angeles Times, isn't it?
[07:42.280 --> 07:44.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, you may be right.
[07:44.560 --> 07:49.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, our own Evan was there at the demonstration yesterday in support of John Ashcroft.
[07:49.160 --> 07:49.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[07:51.150 --> 07:52.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just so used to that.
[07:52.520 --> 07:55.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, in opposition to John Ashcroft, tell us how many people showed up.
[07:55.830 --> 07:56.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: What was it like?
[07:56.460 --> 07:58.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: There were a few hundred people there, at least.
[07:58.440 --> 08:00.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was pretty big and loud.
[08:01.920 --> 08:04.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's a large police presence, of course.
[08:04.770 --> 08:11.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of officers with rifles, and one officer was patrolling up and down the roof of Federal Hall.
[08:13.680 --> 08:15.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, would you say the police outnumbered the demonstrators?
[08:16.120 --> 08:19.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, they didn't outnumber, but they certainly had a heavy presence.
[08:20.450 --> 08:21.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's so crazy.
[08:21.330 --> 08:26.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, when I was in Krakow, Poland, I noticed there were a lot of cops, and that disturbed me.
[08:26.080 --> 08:26.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, all these cops everywhere.
[08:27.840 --> 08:29.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was wondering, why are all these police here?
[08:29.600 --> 08:32.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: They all seem very, you know, easygoing, not intimidating in any way.
[08:32.920 --> 08:34.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: But there were still so many of them.
[08:34.280 --> 08:39.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's this big open square where everybody likes to gather and listen to the clock chime and things like that.
[08:39.880 --> 08:43.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, there's a clock there that chimes every hour, and it plays a melody.
[08:44.060 --> 08:46.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the melody is abruptly cut off.
[08:46.520 --> 08:52.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the reason for that is because it's based on a melody that some guy was playing to warn of oncoming troops.
[08:52.180 --> 08:53.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the moment his throat was slashed.
[08:53.720 --> 08:57.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: So they mark it by doing it that way.
[08:57.680 --> 08:58.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was kind of interesting.
[08:58.660 --> 09:02.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, all these police were there in vans and motorcycles, cars.
[09:02.960 --> 09:04.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was wondering, what in the world is going on here?
[09:04.680 --> 09:06.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's just more and more of them.
[09:06.280 --> 09:09.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: But they're not, you know, they don't have their arms folded.
[09:09.120 --> 09:10.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're not intimidating.
[09:10.240 --> 09:13.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're just sort of hanging around, making sure people don't go down a particular street.
[09:14.000 --> 09:17.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I asked someone later who spoke English what exactly was going on.
[09:17.500 --> 09:23.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they're like, well, actually, it's the president of Poland and also the president of Croatia and a few other presidents that were just sort of hanging out down there.
[09:23.720 --> 09:27.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, can you imagine if something like that was happening in New York, the presence?
[09:27.700 --> 09:30.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Helicopters, you'd have barricades, you'd have SWAT teams, everything like that.
[09:30.640 --> 09:35.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Here you just have a bunch of cops standing, not looking particularly threatening.
[09:35.760 --> 09:39.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably, you know, the only situation I can think of that would warrant that kind of police presence.
[09:40.570 --> 09:44.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And nobody seemed really upset or intimidated by it, which I thought was kind of interesting.
[09:45.840 --> 09:51.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, so to get back to this demonstration yesterday, how long did it last?
[09:51.400 --> 09:55.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Was there any kind of, I don't know, response to it at all?
[09:56.310 --> 09:58.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't actually know how long it lasted.
[09:58.900 --> 10:01.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I fortunately couldn't be there for long.
[10:01.020 --> 10:08.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I got there at least an hour and a half after it started, and it was quite loud.
[10:08.840 --> 10:13.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: They had a lot of good speakers, and the crowd kept shouting, Ashcroft, resign.
[10:14.120 --> 10:26.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there were some humorous signs, a few of which bashed the singing senators, which is the group to which John Ashcroft and Trent Lott and two others belonged to.
[10:26.020 --> 10:31.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: If any of our listeners, by the way, have, like, an MP3 of the singing senators, I would really like to hear it.
[10:31.800 --> 10:35.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I imagine that's going to be making its rounds as the campaign heats up.
[10:37.040 --> 10:39.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, all right, so the Ashcroft tour is over.
[10:39.780 --> 10:46.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he went on this tour because there's been a lot of criticism about the PATRIOT Act and all the new powers that are given to government as a result.
[10:47.180 --> 10:50.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: The PATRIOT Act, I believe, expires in 2005?
[10:51.440 --> 10:52.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or was it 2004?
[10:53.840 --> 10:54.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe.
[10:54.600 --> 10:55.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we don't know.
[10:56.780 --> 10:58.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, of course, they're going to want to extend it.
[10:59.060 --> 11:09.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is part of the way, I guess, they're going to do this, is by getting overwhelming support by having closed hearings in front of law enforcement people and town hall meetings where nobody is allowed to speak.
[11:10.040 --> 11:19.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, there's an interesting law that prohibits government officials from using government money to try and influence what legislation does and doesn't get passed.
[11:19.940 --> 11:24.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Ashcroft seems to me to be violating this law, but he claims he isn't.
[11:24.220 --> 11:26.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's something else that's violating this law that I think.
[11:27.040 --> 11:28.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, someone wrote in about this.
[11:28.660 --> 11:38.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: After listening to your show from September 3rd, I visited the Department of Justice's website and was shocked by the following quote on www.lifeandliberty.gov.
[11:39.060 --> 11:40.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, go to that one.
[11:40.260 --> 11:41.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a lot of fun.
[11:42.100 --> 11:43.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, this is what it says.
[11:43.420 --> 11:52.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: It says, Visit DOJ's new website, www.lifeandliberty.gov, launched to educate Americans about how we are preserving life and liberty by using the USA PATRIOT Act.
[11:52.280 --> 12:02.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this reader says, After some browsing of that site, I was shocked by the sheer audacity of the Department of Justice in placing such misinformation slash propaganda on an official government website.
[12:03.100 --> 12:14.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: The ACLU has responded to the dispelling of the myths about the PATRIOT Act at www.acou.org slash files slash openfile.cfm question mark ID equals 13375.
[12:14.800 --> 12:24.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, someone else wrote in with a very helpful site that can be used for fixing URLs that go on forever.
[12:24.940 --> 12:32.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: This person was listening to last week's show when I heard a manual rattling off the URL for the wacky Canadian passport photo requirement news items.
[12:33.180 --> 12:36.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess that reading long URLs over the air can be frustrating.
[12:36.180 --> 12:41.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: So here's an online tool that may be of interest to you, www.tinyurl.com.
[12:41.900 --> 12:43.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right, tinyurl.com.
[12:43.980 --> 12:47.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: What this site does, it takes a lengthy URL and reduces it.
[12:47.500 --> 12:51.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: In the case of the URL you furnished, which I don't want to read that again.
[12:51.220 --> 12:52.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was really, really long, though, 52 characters.
[12:53.400 --> 12:57.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: It reduced that to tinyurl.com slash MLG9.
[12:58.760 --> 12:59.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[13:00.640 --> 13:02.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, that comes from Winston Smith.
[13:02.760 --> 13:03.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've heard from him before, haven't we?
[13:05.100 --> 13:05.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely.
[13:05.540 --> 13:10.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's something to use if you want to make a long URL shorter.
[13:10.700 --> 13:12.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, we also have something else special happening tonight.
[13:12.980 --> 13:14.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: There is a flash mob gathering.
[13:14.720 --> 13:17.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've sent Leo out there to cover this for us.
[13:18.040 --> 13:25.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we hope to be hearing from him at some point tonight during the show from the flash mob site, telling people...
[13:25.320 --> 13:28.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, are we supposed to tell people about the flash mob site?
[13:28.900 --> 13:29.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's going on?
[13:29.700 --> 13:30.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are we supposed to keep it secret?
[13:30.600 --> 13:32.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Nothing I have is a secret, I don't think.
[13:32.640 --> 13:33.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, so why don't we tell people?
[13:33.700 --> 13:35.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe people can run out to where the flash mob thing is happening.
[13:37.200 --> 13:38.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've got about half an hour at this point.
[13:38.860 --> 13:41.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they're supposed to go to these bars by 7.20.
[13:41.680 --> 13:44.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And there's six bars, depending on the month of your birth.
[13:44.700 --> 13:45.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't really want to read them all.
[13:45.960 --> 13:46.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's 7.13 now.
[13:47.040 --> 13:58.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, so if you live in the west part of Midtown, where most of these bars are, and you have seven minutes to go online, find out what the bars are, and go to the bar, by all means, do.
[13:58.460 --> 13:59.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can't just list the bar names?
[14:00.240 --> 14:01.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, for January and February...
[14:01.920 --> 14:02.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, forget the month.
[14:02.900 --> 14:04.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, people just run down there.
[14:04.260 --> 14:05.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're not going to check their birthdays.
[14:05.460 --> 14:12.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's the Bellevue Bar, Dave's Tavern, the Bull Moose Saloon, the Mercury Bar and Grill, Siberia, and the Smith's Bar and Grill.
[14:12.360 --> 14:15.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so people are right now congregating in those areas.
[14:15.860 --> 14:16.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[14:16.060 --> 14:17.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they're going to meet there at 7.20.
[14:17.980 --> 14:19.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what happens at 7.20?
[14:20.500 --> 14:27.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: There, then or soon after, a mob, all capitals, representative will appear in the bar and will pass around further instructions.
[14:28.180 --> 14:28.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Here's my question.
[14:29.460 --> 14:31.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is being passed around everywhere.
[14:31.840 --> 14:32.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everywhere.
[14:32.180 --> 14:34.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do you know which is the real mob representative?
[14:34.880 --> 14:37.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody could claim to be the mob representative, right?
[14:37.420 --> 14:39.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Someone from the mob could come.
[14:39.300 --> 14:39.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[14:40.820 --> 14:43.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and sue them for copyright infringement or something.
[14:44.020 --> 14:46.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: It lasts from 7.41 for five minutes.
[14:46.860 --> 14:49.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you're supposed to ring two $1 bills if you do go.
[14:50.260 --> 14:52.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, most people should be able to manage that.
[14:52.520 --> 14:53.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: 7.41.
[14:53.260 --> 14:54.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: So at 7.41, something's going to be happening.
[14:54.820 --> 14:57.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Shortly thereafter, we're going to hear from Leo as to just what it was that did happen.
[14:58.100 --> 15:01.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: This, by the way, is the last of the mobs.
[15:01.340 --> 15:02.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: What does that mean, the last?
[15:03.000 --> 15:04.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Who's going to stop this?
[15:04.780 --> 15:07.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: The frequently asked questions, the first question is the end.
[15:07.760 --> 15:08.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: The answer is yes.
[15:08.560 --> 15:09.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: The question is why.
[15:09.840 --> 15:11.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: The answer is it can't be explained.
[15:11.660 --> 15:12.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, shut up.
[15:12.400 --> 15:13.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I say to them.
[15:14.520 --> 15:24.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, speaking of copyright infringement and silliness and things like that, you hear about the 12-year-old girl sued by the recording industry of America for...
[15:24.660 --> 15:27.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, how stupid can you be?
[15:27.400 --> 15:28.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is what we're going to do for public relations.
[15:29.100 --> 15:31.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sue a 12-year-old girl who lives in a housing project in Los Angeles.
[15:31.880 --> 15:32.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing is...
[15:32.560 --> 15:32.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: In New York.
[15:33.360 --> 15:33.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, really?
[15:33.980 --> 15:34.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[15:34.460 --> 15:37.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, because the recording industry is in Los Angeles.
[15:38.460 --> 15:45.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the thing is that she didn't think she was doing anything illegal because she actually paid for the peer-to-peer sharing software.
[15:45.740 --> 15:49.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: So she thought that by paying for the software, she was paying to download music.
[15:49.660 --> 15:51.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Peer-to-peer software costs money?
[15:51.380 --> 15:51.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Apparently.
[15:52.160 --> 15:53.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's what I found confusing.
[15:53.300 --> 15:54.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't know where to go to pay for it.
[15:55.000 --> 15:56.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Perhaps she was just ripped off.
[15:56.480 --> 16:00.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Someone made her pay for a link to one of the popular softwares.
[16:00.800 --> 16:01.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: There is a...
[16:01.520 --> 16:06.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Kazaa will sell you some CDs that allow you a premium downloading tool.
[16:06.580 --> 16:13.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I think this is very interesting because I visited a lot of people when I was overseas in Eastern Europe, where things, by the way, are extremely cheap.
[16:13.180 --> 16:16.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can get all kinds of food and drink and pay less than $10.
[16:17.180 --> 16:18.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really amazing.
[16:18.680 --> 16:20.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can get places to stay for like $20.
[16:21.180 --> 16:21.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's...
[16:21.620 --> 16:23.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I really recommend it for people who want to save money.
[16:24.260 --> 16:31.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: But when I visited people in their homes, with their permission, of course, I noticed that many of them did not have actual CDs.
[16:31.860 --> 16:34.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, the CD that I got from my Russian friend...
[16:35.160 --> 16:35.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, gosh.
[16:35.880 --> 16:43.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I can't even say the name of the band, which is really popular because it's spelled in Cyrillic, and I never took the time to learn the Cyrillic out.
[16:43.160 --> 16:45.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does anyone here know how to pronounce things in Cyrillic?
[16:45.140 --> 16:45.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Leo does.
[16:47.360 --> 16:48.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: He'll be at the Smart Mob.
[16:48.620 --> 16:49.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, well, okay.
[16:49.920 --> 16:51.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe a listener can help us with this.
[16:51.320 --> 16:57.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: The word in English is spelled K and then the backwards N, H, and then O.
[16:57.180 --> 17:00.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, if anyone can call up and tell me how to pronounce that at the end of the show, we're going to play a song from them.
[17:00.860 --> 17:14.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, the point is the CDs, the CD collections that I saw from people almost invariably were not real CDs that were bought at a record store because, well, as I said, things are cheap except for CDs and other things that come from the West like that.
[17:15.270 --> 17:18.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what people do pay for are the CD-ROMs that they burn things onto.
[17:18.860 --> 17:27.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's a very significant thing that people are buying, you know, the equipment they need to have the music that they want because they can afford that, you know.
[17:28.140 --> 17:34.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think when you have CDs that cost $16, $18, yeah, of course you should expect that people are going to, you know, try to get the music some other way.
[17:34.560 --> 17:39.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: When I was a kid, and I'm sure a lot of people have done the same thing, I recorded music off the radio all the time there.
[17:39.280 --> 17:39.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've said it.
[17:40.340 --> 17:40.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right?
[17:40.920 --> 17:41.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what do I do?
[17:41.740 --> 17:48.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do I sign that little amnesty form that the RIAA is sending around and say, hey, you know, I'm sorry, but I was recording music off the radio when I was a kid.
[17:48.940 --> 17:49.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't buy it.
[17:49.880 --> 17:51.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: What do I do to make things right?
[17:51.000 --> 17:52.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: That would be an instant judgment.
[17:53.920 --> 17:58.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't sign the amnesty form, says the EFF and other credible legal folks.
[17:58.600 --> 18:03.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: The other thing that I was wondering was, I have a very big vinyl collection, all right?
[18:03.180 --> 18:06.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I've already bought some CDs that are duplicates of my vinyl collection.
[18:06.300 --> 18:14.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: But according to what these guys are saying, it's okay to, you know, download music if you own the music already.
[18:14.360 --> 18:15.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I own the music already.
[18:15.780 --> 18:16.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: I own it on vinyl.
[18:16.840 --> 18:20.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can I download this and have it in digital format and not have to buy the same thing twice?
[18:21.460 --> 18:21.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Huh?
[18:22.180 --> 18:23.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: No one's ever approached this before.
[18:23.700 --> 18:24.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'd like to know.
[18:24.640 --> 18:27.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have the vinyl copy, can you download the digital copy?
[18:27.620 --> 18:30.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I think maybe you should call them up and ask.
[18:30.900 --> 18:35.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it just so happens that the RIA's phone number is 1-800.
[18:35.920 --> 18:40.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I can't remember the numbers, but it happens to spell bad beat.
[18:40.260 --> 18:42.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: B-A-D-B-E-A-T.
[18:42.960 --> 18:43.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, look at that.
[18:44.700 --> 18:45.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's 1-800.
[18:46.900 --> 18:47.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bad beat.
[18:47.740 --> 18:47.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[18:49.800 --> 18:51.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll feel so embarrassed if it happens to be 877.
[18:52.360 --> 18:52.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: What?
[18:52.760 --> 18:53.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Was...
[18:53.140 --> 18:54.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Was that their idea to get bad beat?
[18:55.080 --> 18:55.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it's just...
[18:56.360 --> 18:58.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Coincidentally, as far as I know, they've never advertised it as that.
[18:59.100 --> 18:59.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[18:59.620 --> 19:03.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I doubt you'd see the RIAA really advertising their phone number.
[19:04.940 --> 19:06.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, this is their phone number now ringing.
[19:07.020 --> 19:08.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: At least I sure hope it is, Jim.
[19:08.880 --> 19:10.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know it's one of the toll-free numbers.
[19:10.840 --> 19:12.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, you didn't check it before you came into the studio.
[19:13.820 --> 19:14.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Giving out phone numbers.
[19:15.200 --> 19:16.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've dialed it before.
[19:16.360 --> 19:19.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: This could be some grandmother in Queens somewhere, and you're giving out the phone number.
[19:20.060 --> 19:22.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, most grandmothers have an 800 number.
[19:22.340 --> 19:25.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for calling the Recording Industry Association of America.
[19:25.720 --> 19:26.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're redeemed.
[19:26.200 --> 19:27.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of our lines are busy.
[19:27.920 --> 19:32.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you know the extension of the person you're calling, please enter it now.
[19:32.140 --> 19:37.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you know the last name of the person you're calling, please press 1 now.
[19:37.320 --> 19:37.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't know anything.
[19:38.120 --> 19:43.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you need our address, web address, or fax number, please press 2 now.
[19:44.420 --> 19:48.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you want information on our fax-on-demand service, press 3 now.
[19:49.260 --> 19:54.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to leave a message in our general mailbox, please press 4 now.
[19:55.020 --> 20:01.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to leave a message in our Internet piracy mailbox, please press 5 now.
[20:01.700 --> 20:03.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to talk to a person.
[20:03.480 --> 20:06.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you would like to continue to hold for our receptionist, please stay on the line.
[20:06.920 --> 20:07.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, that's what we're going to do.
[20:07.540 --> 20:08.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for calling.
[20:08.400 --> 20:09.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hold for the receptionist.
[20:09.660 --> 20:11.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's all we get is a receptionist.
[20:11.100 --> 20:12.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Five is tempting, though, isn't it?
[20:13.490 --> 20:14.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please hold.
[20:14.280 --> 20:14.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[20:14.980 --> 20:17.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're just going to ask that question, and then we'll move on.
[20:17.660 --> 20:19.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: What I want to know is, doesn't it cost them...
[20:19.720 --> 20:20.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Music, do you think they're paying for this?
[20:23.770 --> 20:34.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Doesn't it cost more to sue these 12-year-old girls and the 90-year-old grandfather down in Texas that, you know, his grandkids were using his computer?
[20:34.480 --> 20:37.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's a little silly.
[20:37.220 --> 20:39.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, the whole thing seems to be a public relations disaster.
[20:39.520 --> 20:42.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for calling the Recording Industry Association of America.
[20:42.880 --> 20:44.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of our lines are busy.
[20:45.020 --> 20:46.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you know the extension of the person you are calling...
[20:46.180 --> 20:46.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got to go through this again.
[20:47.180 --> 20:47.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bring her down.
[20:48.260 --> 20:48.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, Jim.
[20:49.980 --> 20:54.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: The reason that they lose money in these particular suits is the fear factor.
[20:55.000 --> 20:56.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't mean the bad TV show.
[20:56.520 --> 21:00.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, they scare other people that they aren't suing into stopping.
[21:02.320 --> 21:05.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, that's the effect that they think it's going to have.
[21:06.100 --> 21:06.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I...
[21:06.400 --> 21:09.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Are they really stopping them, or are they forcing them underground?
[21:09.620 --> 21:12.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: In talking to people, they've become...
[21:12.540 --> 21:17.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard the talk of boycotting RIAA music more than ever before.
[21:17.510 --> 21:18.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And people are really angry by this.
[21:18.940 --> 21:19.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, a 12-year-old...
[21:19.640 --> 21:20.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was even on Fox News.
[21:20.760 --> 21:21.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they were upset by this.
[21:21.920 --> 21:25.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if they're upset by this, I imagine most of America is going to be upset by it.
[21:25.340 --> 21:25.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: But...
[21:25.620 --> 21:30.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: One of the few times I've seen a front-pitch story on the New York Post that I've said, you know, right on.
[21:30.480 --> 21:30.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[21:30.800 --> 21:31.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please hold.
[21:31.800 --> 21:32.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're holding already.
[21:33.210 --> 21:34.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Put us on hold twice.
[21:35.190 --> 21:37.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, anyway, the 12-year-old settled...
[21:37.580 --> 21:39.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how she did this, but she settled the music lawsuit.
[21:40.320 --> 21:41.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: She's a quick mover.
[21:41.850 --> 21:44.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: $2,000 her mom had to pay.
[21:44.540 --> 21:47.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Her name happens to be Brianna Lahara.
[21:47.820 --> 21:49.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: L-A-H-A-R-A.
[21:49.460 --> 21:51.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: How is it legal to give out a 12-year-old's name?
[21:51.980 --> 21:52.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was...
[21:52.620 --> 21:55.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm just reading what was on CNN.com and the newspapers.
[21:56.380 --> 21:56.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[21:56.620 --> 21:57.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know...
[21:57.560 --> 21:58.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for calling...
[21:58.260 --> 21:59.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just extending a previous...
[21:59.260 --> 22:00.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: You think this goes on forever?
[22:00.800 --> 22:01.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's in the scoop.
[22:02.220 --> 22:03.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it's about 4.30 in Los Angeles.
[22:04.260 --> 22:04.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[22:04.560 --> 22:05.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're calling...
[22:05.640 --> 22:06.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please...
[22:06.060 --> 22:06.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, um...
[22:07.540 --> 22:08.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe they're closed.
[22:08.900 --> 22:10.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, they should say they're closed.
[22:10.640 --> 22:11.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please press one now.
[22:11.860 --> 22:12.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: They really should.
[22:12.640 --> 22:24.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, so the 12-year-old settled the lawsuit for $2,000, which I imagine is a good chunk of change for someone living in a housing project, and I guess, as she said, she issued a statement.
[22:24.600 --> 22:25.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry for what I've done.
[22:25.600 --> 22:26.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I love music.
[22:26.220 --> 22:27.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to hurt the artist I love.
[22:28.420 --> 22:30.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I imagine it's fairly easy to get a 12-year-old to say that.
[22:30.660 --> 22:33.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the recording companies that take most of the profit.
[22:33.200 --> 22:42.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, anyway, when I announced her name, I was suggesting that, you know, if you support downloading and not the RIA, send the girl a card with a buck or two in it.
[22:42.600 --> 22:44.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't you give out her address, too, while you're at it?
[22:45.420 --> 22:47.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or maybe you have her phone number in your pocket.
[22:47.950 --> 22:49.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I'm leaving that as an exercise.
[22:50.140 --> 22:50.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hello?
[22:51.260 --> 22:51.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Does anyone know?
[22:51.760 --> 22:52.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought I heard a voice.
[22:52.600 --> 22:55.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm leaving that as an exercise for the audience to look her up.
[22:56.340 --> 22:59.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, if the Daily News can find her, I'm sure.
[22:59.440 --> 23:00.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: But here's the thing, okay?
[23:00.140 --> 23:03.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I would donate, you know, whatever I could afford for something like this.
[23:03.620 --> 23:04.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what about the next kid?
[23:05.690 --> 23:07.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, what about five kids down the line?
[23:07.320 --> 23:11.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: There are about 1,300 subpoenas right now, or at least that the EFF has in their database.
[23:11.850 --> 23:12.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's why...
[23:12.560 --> 23:12.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me just stop.
[23:12.860 --> 23:13.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is anyone there?
[23:14.160 --> 23:15.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for calling the recording.
[23:16.300 --> 23:17.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a live person, isn't it?
[23:17.820 --> 23:19.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a live person with a sick sense of humor.
[23:20.900 --> 23:23.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, there's going to be, like, you know, thousands more lawsuits.
[23:23.740 --> 23:30.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: They'll, just like Jack Valenti said with the MPAA, they'll file one every day if they have to, or every minute, or a hundred lawsuits a day.
[23:31.020 --> 23:31.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: What did he say?
[23:31.580 --> 23:33.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's got to cost a lot of money.
[23:33.400 --> 23:34.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and who's paying for that?
[23:34.420 --> 23:36.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: The people who buy the CDs and the DVDs and all that.
[23:36.500 --> 23:49.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, with the whole DeCSS thing, I was kind of, a few months later, I was in a computer store and I saw software that was intended to back up DVDs onto CDs, which is essentially the same thing as what people were doing.
[23:49.400 --> 23:54.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or at least they were, I mean, that was what the whole lawsuit was about, copying these movies.
[23:54.080 --> 24:00.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And so, I was kind of curious about how that was, you know, being done legally, to have this software that you backed up.
[24:00.900 --> 24:05.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, maybe because it was a backup, but still, it was using the same kind of technology.
[24:05.440 --> 24:06.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please hold.
[24:06.500 --> 24:06.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[24:07.740 --> 24:13.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mike actually suggested we enter Rosen as the last name, but Hillary Rosen is no longer the head of the RIAA.
[24:13.720 --> 24:14.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: She stepped down.
[24:14.260 --> 24:14.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[24:14.460 --> 24:14.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: She stepped down.
[24:15.140 --> 24:28.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: The CEO of the RIAA and chairman is Mitch Bainwall, who, regarding the case of the 12-year-old girls, said, And as this case illustrates, parents need to be aware of what their children are doing on their computers.
[24:29.120 --> 24:31.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I love how they've tied it into child pornography, too.
[24:32.120 --> 24:32.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, wait.
[24:32.820 --> 24:33.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do you spell his name?
[24:34.040 --> 24:35.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's try to reach him.
[24:35.660 --> 24:38.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: B-A-I-N-W-O-L.
[24:38.560 --> 24:40.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: How dare he use our letters or his name?
[24:40.760 --> 24:41.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[24:41.680 --> 24:46.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you know the last name of the person you are calling, please press 1 now.
[24:46.800 --> 24:50.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Spell the last name first, using the keys on the telephone keypad.
[24:51.320 --> 24:52.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: For a cue, dial 7.
[24:52.460 --> 24:52.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[24:53.040 --> 24:53.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: B.
[24:53.700 --> 24:54.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: B-A-I-N-W-O-L.
[24:54.980 --> 24:55.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mitch Bainwall.
[24:56.540 --> 24:57.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's him.
[24:57.040 --> 24:57.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please hold.
[24:57.900 --> 24:58.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[24:58.800 --> 24:59.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was easy.
[25:08.410 --> 25:09.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think he's going home.
[25:14.110 --> 25:15.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: He has good musical taste, I'll say that.
[25:17.430 --> 25:18.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rather subdued, but...
[25:20.250 --> 25:21.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: If he's there, what are you going to do?
[25:21.450 --> 25:21.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Interview him?
[25:22.330 --> 25:23.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm going to ask him the question I want to know.
[25:23.930 --> 25:27.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, you have reached the voicemail of Mitch Bainwall at the RIAA.
[25:28.510 --> 25:31.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unfortunately, we were unable to take your call at the moment.
[25:31.270 --> 25:37.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: So please leave a message along with your name and a phone number, and we'll get back to you as soon as possible.
[25:37.250 --> 25:37.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you.
[25:38.930 --> 25:39.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Mitch.
[25:39.830 --> 25:43.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein from WBAI, off the hook.
[25:43.490 --> 25:51.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had a question here at the radio show concerning being able to download music if someone already owns the music.
[25:51.290 --> 25:58.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: For instance, it's been implied that if you own a CD, it's okay for you to download the music and use it for personal use.
[25:58.850 --> 26:07.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: My question is, if you own the music in analog format, such as an LP or something like that, is it okay for you to do it in that case?
[26:08.410 --> 26:12.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or do you have to go out and buy the CD again in order for things to be legal?
[26:12.330 --> 26:14.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Email us back, please, if you will.
[26:14.470 --> 26:16.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: oth@2600.com.
[26:16.850 --> 26:19.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'd like to read your response on the next program.
[26:19.510 --> 26:19.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[26:20.010 --> 26:20.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have a nice day.
[26:21.690 --> 26:22.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[26:22.350 --> 26:22.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Was I nice enough?
[26:23.670 --> 26:24.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Quite polite.
[26:24.330 --> 26:24.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[26:25.010 --> 26:26.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, that's what you've got to do.
[26:26.310 --> 26:29.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: You've got to call these people and ask them pointed questions and see if they respond.
[26:29.950 --> 26:33.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll report on that next week and tell you if that gets anywhere.
[26:35.430 --> 26:44.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, speaking of silliness tying things into things that really aren't related, you see this story, man accused of luring minors to sex websites.
[26:45.490 --> 26:46.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds pretty horrible, doesn't it?
[26:47.210 --> 26:48.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: But read into the story a little bit.
[26:48.890 --> 26:52.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: I read this somewhere in Europe in the International Hero Tribune.
[26:52.470 --> 27:03.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, federal prosecutors in Manhattan have charged a Florida man with violating a new law that makes it illegal to use misleading Internet domain names to entice minors to pornographic websites.
[27:03.650 --> 27:15.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Prosecutors said that as part of the scheme, the defendant, John Zuccarini, had registered 3,000 domain names that included misspellings or slight variations of popular names like Disneyland, Bob the Builder, and Teen Magazine.
[27:16.310 --> 27:20.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Zuccarini also used more than a dozen variations of the name Britney Spears, according to prosecutors.
[27:21.190 --> 27:22.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, here's the funny part.
[27:22.790 --> 27:23.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, to me, it's funny.
[27:23.810 --> 27:32.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: A child who accidentally mistyped a name into an Internet browser would be directed to a website controlled by Zuccarini and barraged with X-rated advertising, the authorities said.
[27:32.390 --> 27:36.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: The child would also be mousetrapped, they said, that is unable to exit from the site.
[27:36.650 --> 27:42.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this is the only thing they have in there to indicate that children are being lured in that a child could do this.
[27:42.990 --> 27:45.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: My thinking is, couldn't anybody do this?
[27:45.230 --> 27:50.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a child could type anything on the Internet, but that doesn't mean this person was targeting children.
[27:50.850 --> 27:54.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they are young children's sites, and you know why he did that, right?
[27:54.630 --> 27:55.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know the purpose.
[27:55.510 --> 27:55.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't know.
[27:56.030 --> 27:56.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think he explained it.
[27:57.090 --> 28:00.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's to get hits so that he could then charge more for his advertising.
[28:00.890 --> 28:03.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, but I think it's a big reach to say he was targeting children.
[28:03.950 --> 28:08.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bob the Builder is a children's, I think, television show as far as we know.
[28:09.710 --> 28:12.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: He misspelled a number of popular sites for children.
[28:12.330 --> 28:13.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: You don't see the connection?
[28:13.390 --> 28:15.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't see the intent.
[28:15.650 --> 28:16.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't see the intent.
[28:16.630 --> 28:20.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a new federal law that says you can't misspell and redirect to an adult site.
[28:20.910 --> 28:23.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can misspell and redirect to a gambling site.
[28:23.250 --> 28:26.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can misspell and redirect to a hacking site.
[28:26.390 --> 28:29.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can misspell and redirect to the New York Times for all I can.
[28:29.250 --> 28:33.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: My question is, how do you determine that children are the ones going to these sites?
[28:33.950 --> 28:37.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can say, yeah, it's a children's site, but how do you determine they're the ones that are doing it?
[28:37.610 --> 28:39.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's really no... I don't see any way you can do that.
[28:40.210 --> 28:42.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, yeah, but the law presupposes.
[28:42.170 --> 28:46.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the law was put into effect to avoid asking that legal question.
[28:46.530 --> 28:49.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is a federal law that now makes it illegal to do that.
[28:49.670 --> 28:58.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: But now, you know, we could say that children like to go to 2600.com, and then some idiot out there registers 26000.com, directs that to a porn site, and...
[28:58.690 --> 29:04.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: But the idea is you can't have a misspelling direct to a porn site, regardless if it targets children.
[29:04.270 --> 29:05.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Whether or not it's targeting children.
[29:05.770 --> 29:06.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: They happen to...
[29:06.770 --> 29:10.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, the law says that any misspelling cannot be directed to a porn site.
[29:10.810 --> 29:14.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: What if the person just speaks English badly and misspells something on purpose?
[29:14.870 --> 29:16.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, not on purpose, but because he thinks that's the way it's spelled.
[29:16.810 --> 29:18.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: As long as they don't get to a porn site, that's not a problem.
[29:18.750 --> 29:19.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is really getting silly.
[29:19.830 --> 29:22.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: The chances are, though, that an adult would not do the misspelling.
[29:23.050 --> 29:26.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: As a child, trying to go to one of these places, probably would.
[29:27.510 --> 29:28.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And again, it's...
[29:29.670 --> 29:37.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: The person realizes they're not going to gain any benefit from having a child on a porn site, but they will register the hit on their counters and charge...
[29:37.630 --> 29:38.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, that's the intent.
[29:38.770 --> 29:38.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[29:39.070 --> 29:46.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it says here that he gets a referral fee of $0.10 to $0.25 each time a visitor to one of his sites moved to the site of one of the advertisers.
[29:46.370 --> 29:49.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: He earned $800,000 to $1 million a year through the scheme.
[29:49.570 --> 29:50.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've got no sympathy for this guy.
[29:50.870 --> 29:58.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying the thing is kind of crazy logic here because you have no way of knowing who it is that is going to these sites.
[29:58.310 --> 30:02.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, this guy is just trying to make money, and I don't think he said, I'm going to get children to go...
[30:02.750 --> 30:03.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, look at the headline.
[30:03.750 --> 30:05.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Manicues are luring minors to sex websites.
[30:05.590 --> 30:06.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's not what the story is.
[30:06.890 --> 30:11.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just as designed to get you thinking that this guy is a pervert, and that's not...
[30:11.150 --> 30:12.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, he's a scum, you know.
[30:12.810 --> 30:19.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's just trying to make money by directing people to porn sites, but, you know, it's not exactly what it's saying it is.
[30:19.130 --> 30:20.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: But he's a very wealthy scum.
[30:20.690 --> 30:21.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, he's wealthy scum.
[30:21.590 --> 30:23.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, they make the best kind of scum.
[30:23.930 --> 30:29.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, he's the first person charged in the United States with committing a crime under the truth in domain names law.
[30:30.550 --> 30:31.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[30:31.350 --> 30:32.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's just a good one.
[30:32.190 --> 30:33.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Truth in domain names law.
[30:33.430 --> 30:33.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's that mean?
[30:33.850 --> 30:35.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: A domain name has to be what it says it is.
[30:36.170 --> 30:37.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can't be anything other than that.
[30:38.090 --> 30:40.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or be what it's spelled similarly to.
[30:40.770 --> 30:44.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: The provision is part of a comprehensive legislative package signed by President George W.
[30:45.170 --> 30:50.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bush in the spring that included the creation of the National Amber Alert Network for Child Abduction Cases, all tied together.
[30:50.710 --> 30:57.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you see the connection, though, to kind of a truth in advertising kind of thing, where if you're doing this, it's...
[30:57.430 --> 31:01.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see, you know, oversight in saying what's on websites.
[31:01.890 --> 31:02.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't like that.
[31:02.770 --> 31:03.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just don't.
[31:03.530 --> 31:03.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't...
[31:03.870 --> 31:06.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying children should be directed anywhere, but...
[31:06.410 --> 31:09.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you know, once they're there, you know, are you over 18 is just an invitation.
[31:10.190 --> 31:12.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not really something stopping them.
[31:12.870 --> 31:13.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[31:13.370 --> 31:14.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you know this how...
[31:14.450 --> 31:15.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder, did they warn this guy first?
[31:15.690 --> 31:17.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Did they just do this?
[31:17.590 --> 31:19.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: He also had a prior restraining order.
[31:19.550 --> 31:21.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: He had done this before it was a law.
[31:21.290 --> 31:25.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they sued him and managed to convict him of something.
[31:26.470 --> 31:27.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Other bits of news.
[31:27.850 --> 31:33.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: The Arab satellite channel Al Jazeera began operating an English-language website on Monday.
[31:33.930 --> 31:37.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this may sound like old news, but actually, this...
[31:37.170 --> 31:44.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: According to this news story from the New York Times, it happened five months after hackers brought down a temporary site at the height of the Iraq War.
[31:45.390 --> 31:45.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[31:46.350 --> 31:58.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Susie Suri, news coordinator and spokeswoman, said the site, english.aljazeera.net, that's spelled A-L-J-A-Z-E-E-R-A.net, aims to fill a niche for English speakers who want to get the other side of the story, the Arab perspective.
[31:59.170 --> 32:10.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: U.S., British, and even Arab officials have criticized Al Jazeera's coverage of events in the Middle East and its airing of al-Qaeda statements, including one today, accusing the station of sensationalism, bias, and incitement.
[32:10.750 --> 32:15.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Others in the region view it as a courageous addition to the Arab world's mostly state-run media.
[32:21.270 --> 32:26.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: I would be curious if it was actually a form of censorship, or high-tech censorship by a government agency.
[32:27.150 --> 32:27.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, definitely.
[32:27.810 --> 32:32.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, I mean, you know, who better to blame it on than hackers, as everything else is blamed on.
[32:32.090 --> 32:39.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the thing is, they had launched a temporary site way back then in English, and now this is more of a permanent site.
[32:39.430 --> 32:46.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: I imagine that it would be a good day to go there because of the statement that was just released today from Osama bin Laden, the alleged Osama bin Laden.
[32:47.650 --> 32:48.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: English.aljazeera.net.
[32:49.250 --> 32:50.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Read it for yourself.
[32:50.170 --> 32:50.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Decide for yourself.
[32:50.850 --> 32:55.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't agree with it, then, you know, deal with it, and no need to cut it off to anybody else.
[32:55.550 --> 32:57.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: And these literally are bits of news.
[32:57.390 --> 32:59.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: These are tiny pieces of paper you have here.
[32:59.190 --> 33:08.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are tiny pieces of paper because I was sitting on trains and airplanes and things, and I was reading, you know, when you're over there in Europe, you just read the International Hero Tribune because there's no other English paper you can really read,
[33:08.490 --> 33:10.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: unless you want to read the Wall Street Journal Europe.
[33:10.710 --> 33:15.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and by the way, speaking of the Wall Street Journal, I had Jeff run out into the hallway to try to find the Wall Street Journal.
[33:15.290 --> 33:21.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Apparently, we have every section of it except the section we want, which is the front section, so if anybody in the station has the front section, please bring it to us.
[33:22.050 --> 33:29.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: On, I think, page A14, we were alerted by our friend Chris that there's a huge ad, huge front page ad, that just says, goodbye, hackers.
[33:31.230 --> 33:32.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello, customers, and something like that.
[33:32.710 --> 33:40.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know who it is exactly, but if you want to see it in Wall Street Journal, you better hurry up and get out there and maybe send us a copy since we don't have one.
[33:40.710 --> 34:00.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: The European Parliament, in addition to recommending that homosexuals be allowed to legally marry and adopt children in its annual report on human rights issues for the European Union, also said that they were urging airlines operating transatlantic flights to immediately stop handing over the personal information on passengers that is demanded by the United States.
[34:00.790 --> 34:03.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there's some interesting legislative moves by the European Union.
[34:04.010 --> 34:07.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Shows you how far apart the two parts of the world are growing.
[34:07.790 --> 34:12.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And over there, really, you know, people just ask me, is it true what we're reading about?
[34:12.170 --> 34:13.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's going on over there?
[34:13.230 --> 34:15.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's hard to answer.
[34:15.530 --> 34:16.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's hard to answer.
[34:16.110 --> 34:19.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, this shirt I'm wearing was very popular in many places.
[34:19.230 --> 34:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was in Finland, in fact, wearing this shirt, the shirt that says...
[34:22.450 --> 34:26.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: This would be the American Traveler International Apology shirt?
[34:26.170 --> 34:31.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, on the back it says in all the UN languages that, I'm sorry, my president is an idiot.
[34:31.250 --> 34:32.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: I did not vote for him.
[34:32.810 --> 34:35.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was popular in Russia, but it was very popular in Finland as well.
[34:36.250 --> 34:38.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Available at AmericanApologyShirt.com.
[34:38.690 --> 34:38.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's right.
[34:38.790 --> 34:39.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: For anyone who's interested.
[34:39.630 --> 34:40.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's right.
[34:40.590 --> 34:41.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: If they're not shut down yet.
[34:42.610 --> 34:46.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some listener email or feedback.
[34:47.290 --> 34:54.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: We were talking about the person who's being blamed for the blaster worm.
[34:55.450 --> 34:58.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we had a number of pieces of mail on that.
[34:58.490 --> 34:59.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I asked a question.
[35:01.250 --> 35:04.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Someone said that the thing was renamed by this person.
[35:05.150 --> 35:07.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was blaster.b, I believe, was the name of the file.
[35:08.530 --> 35:10.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he renamed...
[35:10.150 --> 35:11.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: He renamed...
[35:11.470 --> 35:12.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he added a key.
[35:12.410 --> 35:14.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: The blaster.b virus added the key.
[35:14.510 --> 35:16.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And all the news items would say...
[35:16.630 --> 35:20.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: All the news stories, Associated Press, New York Times, they would just say that it was named after anatomical reference.
[35:21.110 --> 35:24.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Apparently, they couldn't say that it was named penis32.exe.
[35:24.730 --> 35:26.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Apparently, that was too much for them to print in the newspaper.
[35:27.530 --> 35:28.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good Lord.
[35:28.190 --> 35:29.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's what it was called.
[35:29.190 --> 35:32.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: That clears up the mystery as to what the anatomical reference is.
[35:33.610 --> 35:38.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this person says, I don't know about him, but I would have picked a better anatomical reference if I were writing a virus.
[35:38.390 --> 35:39.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not that I would do that.
[35:40.310 --> 35:41.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: This person writes in...
[35:41.410 --> 35:42.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is rather interesting.
[35:42.470 --> 35:44.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: I heard you talking about T-Kid.
[35:44.870 --> 35:46.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's T-33-Kid, a.k.a.
[35:46.330 --> 35:46.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Jeff.
[35:46.850 --> 35:49.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And just wanted to correct the things that you have said about him.
[35:49.690 --> 35:51.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, keep in mind, we were reading news stories.
[35:51.670 --> 35:52.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: We weren't saying it ourselves.
[35:52.830 --> 35:55.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: I went to school with him, and we and I...
[35:55.670 --> 35:56.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: We and I...
[35:56.690 --> 35:57.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay.
[35:58.430 --> 36:01.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to try to read this without saying anything wrong here.
[36:01.830 --> 36:05.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I know a lot of his friends, although we weren't personal friends.
[36:05.570 --> 36:09.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Firstly, I would just like to say that he was never in what would be the computer or geek group.
[36:10.090 --> 36:13.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, on your show, you said he was responsible for 500,000 infected computers.
[36:13.930 --> 36:15.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: The correct figure is actually 7,000.
[36:15.990 --> 36:16.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[36:16.410 --> 36:17.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I guess that makes a world of difference.
[36:18.570 --> 36:21.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: 500,000 is how much the original infected...
[36:21.470 --> 36:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Original one infected.
[36:22.630 --> 36:26.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: So he is really only responsible for 0.014% of the total damage.
[36:26.370 --> 36:27.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it sounds...
[36:27.490 --> 36:30.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you say 7,000 instead of 500,000, it still sounds like a lot.
[36:30.250 --> 36:33.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, you know, when they blame him for the whole thing, I guess it is a bit relevant.
[36:39.330 --> 36:44.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the first virus didn't come out until August 11th, so those that were damaged had plenty of time to get ready for it.
[36:44.650 --> 36:50.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to make sure that everyone knows, in all caps, he did not write the original because he isn't that clever.
[36:51.330 --> 36:53.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: The original came out of China.
[36:53.030 --> 37:00.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: He basically took the original and had the IP sent to his site, t33kid.com, and added a backdoor so that he could connect to them.
[37:00.870 --> 37:03.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: The FBI didn't do crap either.
[37:03.670 --> 37:09.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, it was his own computer that turned him in.
[37:09.170 --> 37:10.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: What he did was stupid.
[37:10.090 --> 37:14.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, the really stupid part concerns MS Blast in general.
[37:14.470 --> 37:18.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Every time Microsoft posts a security update, a worm or virus is soon made to take advantage of it.
[37:18.370 --> 37:19.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just the way it works.
[37:19.350 --> 37:23.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: This exploit was made public on July 13th by Microsoft, as well as a fix for it.
[37:23.550 --> 37:27.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Over a month later, the blaster worm comes out, which should and was expected.
[37:27.390 --> 37:29.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: It causes more harm than any other worm in recent history.
[37:29.570 --> 37:32.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the only reason is because of lazy admins not doing their job.
[37:32.990 --> 37:42.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, since there are no leads to the people who wrote the original blaster, Jeff is going to be made the scapegoat because of incompetent admins and agents looking for a pay raise for doing nothing.
[37:42.730 --> 37:46.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: First, he faces a maximum sentence of 10 years in jail, plus $250,000 fine.
[37:46.970 --> 37:51.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Plus, Microsoft is filing a lawsuit against him, plus any other company looking to blame someone.
[37:51.250 --> 37:52.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all because admins didn't do their job.
[37:53.230 --> 37:54.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Signed, no rad.
[37:54.810 --> 37:56.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And interesting perspective there.
[37:56.630 --> 38:01.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's another story that is hitting the wires.
[38:01.390 --> 38:02.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: You may have heard about this one.
[38:03.110 --> 38:09.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: A federal judge has issued an arrest warrant for a hacker known as Adrian Lamo.
[38:10.270 --> 38:20.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he currently is facing all kinds of charges based on a hacking incident involving the New York Times.
[38:20.270 --> 38:27.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Federal Magistrate Gregory Hollows ordered Lamo released on a $250,000 bond.
[38:27.370 --> 38:36.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Part of it's secured by his parents' house in accordance with a negotiated surrender deal reached between the Federal Public Defender's Office and New York prosecutors on Monday.
[38:36.750 --> 38:39.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: The high bail was necessary, said Assistant U.S.
[38:39.310 --> 38:43.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Attorney Camel Skipper, because of the hacker's nomadic reputation.
[38:43.730 --> 38:45.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: He has led a transient lifestyle.
[38:45.870 --> 38:48.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: He has been known as the homeless hacker.
[38:48.890 --> 38:58.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Under the terms of his release, Slamis' future wanderings will be confined to the northeastern half of California and southern New York State, unless he gets prior approval of the court to travel elsewhere.
[38:59.290 --> 39:04.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was ordered to fly to New York City at the government's expense and turn himself in to FBI agents tomorrow morning.
[39:05.350 --> 39:12.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: There, he faces a two-count federal complaint, charging him with illegally accessing the New York Times internal network last year.
[39:12.150 --> 39:18.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: One count charges Slamo with computer intrusion, a second with unauthorized possession of access devices.
[39:19.330 --> 39:26.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, we've just gotten the actual indictment, which I don't think has been released before.
[39:26.890 --> 39:28.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was just unsealed.
[39:28.290 --> 39:34.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to read bits of this, and we can kind of analyze this case.
[39:36.350 --> 39:55.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: From in or about February 2002 through in or about April 2002 in the Southern District of New York and elsewhere, Adrian Lamo, the defendant, intentionally accessed a protected computer without authorization and, as a result of such conduct, recklessly caused damage to one and more persons during a one-year period,
[39:55.090 --> 39:57.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: aggregating at least $5,000 in value.
[39:57.870 --> 40:17.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: To wit, Lamo, without the knowledge or authorization of the New York Times, repeatedly accessed the New York Times private intranet and altered the contents of New York Times databases, including a database containing the personal information of contributors to the New York Times op-ed piece and by such conduct causing a loss resulting in damage to the New York Times in excess of $25,000
[40:17.710 --> 40:18.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: during a one-year period.
[40:19.190 --> 40:35.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the second count, from in or about February 2002 through in or about April 2002, he knowingly, with intent, did fraud, trafficked in, and used one or more authorized access devices during a one-year period and by such conduct, obtained something of value,
[40:36.130 --> 40:39.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: aggregating $1,000 and more during that period.
[40:39.450 --> 40:56.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: He created, subsequently used, approximately five user identification names and passwords under the New York Times account with the electronic information service LexisNexis and by such conduct, obtained LexisNexis search services valued in excess of $300,000
[40:56.990 --> 40:59.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: during a one-year period.
[41:01.310 --> 41:01.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[41:01.910 --> 41:06.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's look at some of the dateline things that they read off here.
[41:06.170 --> 41:09.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And let's see if we can get to the bottom of what this is really all about.
[41:09.390 --> 41:10.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: In or about late February 2002.
[41:10.910 --> 41:15.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is according to, I believe, the prosecutor?
[41:15.670 --> 41:16.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: An FBI agent.
[41:16.710 --> 41:17.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: FBI agent.
[41:17.470 --> 41:17.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[41:18.710 --> 41:26.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: I read an article on website securityfocus.com dated February 26, 2002 entitled New York Times Internal Network Hacked.
[41:26.390 --> 41:29.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: So the story was out February 26, 2002.
[41:29.870 --> 41:41.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: The article reported that Adrian Lamo, the defendant, had hacked into the New York Times private intranet and accessed, among other things, a database containing personal information, including home telephone numbers, social security numbers, for over 3,000
[41:41.630 --> 41:44.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: contributors to the New York Times op-ed piece, op-ed page, rather.
[41:45.210 --> 41:59.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: The article further stated that Lamo had altered that database by adding a record for his own name, along with such personal information as his cellular telephone number and email address, and listing his expertise as computer hacking, national security,
[42:00.170 --> 42:01.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: communications intelligence.
[42:02.810 --> 42:10.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: According to the article, Lamo admitted to the author of the article in the course of an interview that he was responsible for the New York Times intrusion.
[42:10.470 --> 42:19.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: He also described in detail how he had gained access to the system through a proxy server and detailed additional conduct undertaken while inside the New York Times intranet.
[42:20.190 --> 42:26.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know about you, but it sounds to me like this story was already out there and he said exactly what it was he did, right?
[42:28.570 --> 42:31.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I read the same indictment you're reading and have read.
[42:32.250 --> 42:36.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: As far as I know, how much are they charging him for the Times intrusion?
[42:36.450 --> 42:37.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: $25,000 or whatever?
[42:37.570 --> 42:41.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're saying an excess $25,000 and they're saying he used LexisNexis accounts for $300,000.
[42:41.970 --> 42:43.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's go back to the Times only.
[42:44.470 --> 42:50.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is the equivalent of going to someone's property and, you know, tagging it with graffiti.
[42:50.450 --> 42:52.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: And not even permanent graffiti.
[42:53.130 --> 42:57.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's saying, here's a door, it's wide open, look, I added my name to your database.
[42:57.390 --> 42:57.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, right.
[42:58.170 --> 43:10.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: He didn't, as far as is alleged so far, he didn't download this, he didn't apply for credit in the names of these people, he didn't alter their data, he stuck his own name in and a bit of self-aggrandizement.
[43:11.450 --> 43:12.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: So he's a kid.
[43:12.530 --> 43:12.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Big deal.
[43:13.110 --> 43:19.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, you know, it sounds to me like, and I know a lot of people have said this in the hacker community that this guy's just looking for attention, his media whore, that kind of thing.
[43:20.430 --> 43:22.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Regardless, that's irrelevant to this.
[43:22.510 --> 43:35.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: What he actually did, you know, what he actually did was go into, assuming that this is all true, go into a server, find a massive security hole, one that apparently was not fixed because they're saying that it continued for a long period of time afterwards.
[43:36.030 --> 43:38.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is after the story is already released.
[43:39.870 --> 43:58.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, February 26, 2002, prior to the publication of the article later that day, the author of the article contacted New York Times representative number one and stated that Adrian Lamo, the defendant, had gained access to the New York Times intranet, so they were notified,
[43:58.850 --> 44:07.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: that he was able to download the social security numbers of New York Times employees and personal information regarding 3,000 contributors to the New York Times op-ed page.
[44:07.970 --> 44:14.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you contributed to the op-ed page, wouldn't you want to know that your information was on an unprotected computer?
[44:14.390 --> 44:15.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would.
[44:15.670 --> 44:23.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, that he had accessed information regarding New York Times home delivery subscribers, that he had gained this access to the New York Times intranet through an open proxy server.
[44:24.270 --> 44:30.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: The author of the article provided the Internet protocol addresses for seven proxy servers allegedly accessed by him.
[44:31.350 --> 44:38.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Lamo had provided screen captures showing internal images of the New York Times intranet along with other information confirming the intrusion.
[44:39.390 --> 44:43.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: He also provided his cellular telephone number to the New York Times representative.
[44:43.390 --> 44:45.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: So this was not a case of someone covering his tracks.
[44:46.030 --> 44:50.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: This was a case of someone notifying the company of a blatant security hole and them not fixing it.
[44:50.830 --> 44:53.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then going after him and charging him with a crime afterwards.
[44:54.070 --> 44:55.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see nothing in here.
[44:55.430 --> 44:58.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I've read the entire thing to indicate that he did anything malicious.
[44:59.570 --> 45:04.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the Lexus Nexus $300,000 for a year?
[45:04.390 --> 45:05.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did he get any sleep?
[45:07.070 --> 45:08.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, I imagine...
[45:08.830 --> 45:10.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know about about that part of it at all.
[45:11.210 --> 45:13.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I imagine that the details will come out about this.
[45:14.410 --> 45:16.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: But for someone to use it that much...
[45:16.170 --> 45:19.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, first of all, everybody who goes to school here, you all have access to the Lexus Nexus, right?
[45:19.510 --> 45:19.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[45:19.870 --> 45:20.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[45:20.150 --> 45:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you don't pay $300,000 a year for it.
[45:22.850 --> 45:23.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the school does.
[45:23.930 --> 45:26.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do they really pay per person $300,000 a year?
[45:26.990 --> 45:29.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's said in the indictment that he...
[45:29.190 --> 45:29.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: How many?
[45:30.050 --> 45:31.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: 3,000 searches?
[45:31.430 --> 45:31.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: 3,000 searches, yeah.
[45:31.470 --> 45:32.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: 3,000 searches.
[45:32.590 --> 45:33.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Which is about 100 a day.
[45:35.150 --> 45:43.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it possible that people read the article and maybe were able to gain access through the details that were in that article and using those names that were also printed in the article?
[45:44.170 --> 45:51.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it possible that maybe all of that was... or maybe simply because of the fact that they did nothing, maybe that implied that they didn't care and it was okay?
[45:51.190 --> 45:51.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[45:51.950 --> 45:58.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not excusing it, but to go after the guy and charge him and indict him and threaten him with prison after he went out of his way
[46:03.930 --> 46:09.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: to be honest because it's so obviously wrong to do this to him and there's been a lot of press attention to it so far.
[46:10.170 --> 46:13.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've never seen the obviously wrong get prosecuted.
[46:13.570 --> 46:14.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's true.
[46:14.790 --> 46:15.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's true.
[46:15.190 --> 46:27.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: But there always is some degree of suspicion at the beginning where you have to alert the public about the story after they've already been put into prison or something like that.
[46:27.870 --> 46:32.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is something that his name was well known beforehand and he was known for doing exactly this sort of thing.
[46:32.950 --> 46:39.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's kind of an affront on the whole community when someone who obviously told what he was doing is charged with a crime.
[46:39.530 --> 46:44.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kind of like the same way that people were charged under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for reverse engineering something.
[46:44.590 --> 46:47.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they told everybody what they were doing then they were charged with a crime.
[46:48.010 --> 46:50.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's just it's pretty upsetting I think.
[46:52.610 --> 46:57.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, that's what's happening now and I think that's a pretty big story.
[46:58.390 --> 47:02.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully we'll have more on that as it happens.
[47:02.270 --> 47:11.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's being he's being indicted officially here in New York tomorrow and I'm sure we'll have information as to what exactly happened next week.
[47:11.110 --> 47:19.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, it's 746 and we're expecting to hear what happened at the flash mob thing I guess almost any minute now.
[47:21.190 --> 47:24.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: While we're waiting for that actually this might be a call right now.
[47:24.530 --> 47:24.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[47:26.610 --> 47:28.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, yes, Emmanuel.
[47:28.350 --> 47:29.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go away.
[47:29.650 --> 47:30.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go away.
[47:30.590 --> 47:32.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Take a long walk on a short pier.
[47:32.450 --> 47:33.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good God.
[47:36.070 --> 47:37.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just bad luck, isn't it?
[47:37.590 --> 47:39.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: No matter what button I push.
[47:39.030 --> 47:41.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: He added echoes just to ensure...
[47:41.230 --> 47:43.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: I could push a button that's not even connected to a phone and I'd get him.
[47:44.710 --> 47:45.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[47:45.350 --> 47:47.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: So we know where Leo's going to come in on, right?
[47:47.070 --> 47:47.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[47:47.310 --> 47:49.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're not taking calls right now.
[47:49.690 --> 47:55.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: So those people calling in, please don't call because you're just going to get timed out and it's, you know, a big waste of time.
[47:57.910 --> 48:17.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: But we do have an interesting story here in that this is something else I read in the International Hero Tribune that the record companies or the RAAA is actually looking at cell phone melodies that people are downloading as a potential way of collecting revenue.
[48:17.970 --> 48:18.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, no.
[48:18.590 --> 48:18.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[48:18.970 --> 48:19.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's true.
[48:20.150 --> 48:20.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's...
[48:20.590 --> 48:22.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: You already have to pay for those, don't you?
[48:22.750 --> 48:22.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[48:23.050 --> 48:23.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening, Aaron.
[48:24.790 --> 48:25.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[48:26.350 --> 48:26.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[48:27.110 --> 48:27.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[48:28.370 --> 48:28.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Aaron.
[48:28.930 --> 48:30.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[48:30.630 --> 48:31.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's Kevin Mitnick.
[48:31.490 --> 48:32.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kevin Mitnick.
[48:32.110 --> 48:32.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: How the hell are you?
[48:33.130 --> 48:33.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing great.
[48:33.770 --> 48:34.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are you?
[48:34.430 --> 48:35.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pretty good.
[48:35.250 --> 48:35.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty good.
[48:36.830 --> 48:41.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, it's funny how you're calling in on this special line here that we have reserved.
[48:43.350 --> 48:44.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have information?
[48:44.310 --> 48:45.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have a habit of doing things like that.
[48:45.670 --> 48:46.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you do.
[48:46.110 --> 48:47.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: You pop in at unexpected moments.
[48:48.070 --> 48:50.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what do you think of this story?
[48:50.270 --> 48:51.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: This whole Adrian Lamos story?
[48:52.110 --> 48:55.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I wasn't able to listen to the show at the moment.
[48:55.550 --> 48:56.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was actually on the other line.
[48:56.830 --> 48:58.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I actually...
[48:58.690 --> 48:59.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Adrian's a friend of mine.
[48:59.930 --> 49:02.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I actually met him on a few occasions.
[49:02.210 --> 49:04.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I feel bad for him.
[49:05.810 --> 49:06.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't...
[49:06.830 --> 49:11.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know for a fact that he doesn't have any evil intent or evil motive.
[49:12.340 --> 49:14.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: That he's kind of...
[49:14.730 --> 49:17.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: views himself as a self-explorer on the Internet.
[49:18.150 --> 49:20.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm just afraid that the U.S.
[49:20.370 --> 49:23.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: government is going to make him another poster boy.
[49:23.690 --> 49:27.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: and I don't know how fairly he'll be treated.
[49:27.950 --> 49:29.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm concerned about that.
[49:29.430 --> 49:36.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unfortunately, which was actually quite a surprise, was he was actually released on bond to travel to New York.
[49:37.390 --> 49:40.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know what district court in New York, probably the southern district of New York.
[49:40.590 --> 49:46.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then, of course, New York, that district court will have him go through another detention hearing.
[49:46.630 --> 49:51.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it's unknown of whether or not he'll be held or detained prior to trial.
[49:51.310 --> 49:58.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you would think if California released him and he appeared, it would show that there's conditions of release that will reasonably assure his appearance.
[49:59.790 --> 50:01.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the federal system is really funny.
[50:03.030 --> 50:08.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: You never know what's really going to happen because you have different prosecutors and different judges and different districts.
[50:08.550 --> 50:13.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I was concerned at the beginning because it looked like we might have had a fugitive case on our hands.
[50:14.670 --> 50:15.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Another fugitive case.
[50:16.170 --> 50:16.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, another fugitive case.
[50:17.770 --> 50:20.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: John Markoff might have been there writing down what's going on.
[50:20.830 --> 50:22.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we just didn't want to see that happening.
[50:22.370 --> 50:24.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's the New York Times again, for God's sake.
[50:24.730 --> 50:36.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I was a bit relieved when he came forward and said, you know, I expected nothing less that he would stand up for what it is that he did and explain exactly again what it is he did.
[50:37.090 --> 50:49.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully this case will turn out better than others Kevin, I'm going to put you on hold for a second because I think we have a report from our roving reporter out in the field somewhere.
[50:49.770 --> 50:50.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Leo, is this you?
[50:52.010 --> 50:54.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi, I'm calling from the flash mob thing.
[50:54.490 --> 50:55.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, what happened out there?
[50:55.810 --> 50:56.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: It just finished.
[50:56.890 --> 51:01.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Basically, we've all gathered on 42nd Street between 6th and 7th Avenues.
[51:01.570 --> 51:09.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: And basically, there was supposed to be a street performer who was setting up, and that was the focal point for the flash mob.
[51:09.470 --> 51:14.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: They all gathered there and basically they started chanting and clapping.
[51:14.690 --> 51:22.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what happened is that, one second, okay, and I noticed that basically just that's what they did.
[51:22.130 --> 51:23.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: They kept chanting and clapping.
[51:23.970 --> 51:24.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: What were they chanting?
[51:25.470 --> 51:31.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, random stuff, like, mob, mob, mob, mob, and then something like, again, I think.
[51:31.790 --> 51:32.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're saying, again, again, again.
[51:33.150 --> 51:35.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's all they did was chant in Times Square?
[51:35.710 --> 51:38.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, which is pretty stupid.
[51:39.310 --> 51:41.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry we sent you out there, then, just to cover that.
[51:42.030 --> 51:43.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was a lot of people, actually.
[51:43.750 --> 51:46.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was noticeable because it was so loud.
[51:46.310 --> 51:47.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: You could hear like two blocks away.
[51:47.670 --> 51:48.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: How many people?
[51:48.870 --> 51:52.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, maybe like 100 or 200.
[51:52.530 --> 51:52.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[51:53.150 --> 51:58.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Crowded like in a 100-foot area, like 10 square feet.
[51:58.830 --> 52:00.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not 10 square feet, like 15 square feet.
[52:00.310 --> 52:02.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, Leo, thanks for letting us know what happened.
[52:02.890 --> 52:04.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have one more question for you.
[52:04.390 --> 52:06.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: This involves something Russian because we're going to play music by this band.
[52:06.970 --> 52:07.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[52:07.450 --> 52:08.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we just want to know how to pronounce this.
[52:09.190 --> 52:11.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is how it's spelled in English letters.
[52:11.970 --> 52:15.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's K, backwards N, H, and then O.
[52:15.730 --> 52:16.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, Kinoa.
[52:16.830 --> 52:17.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kinoa.
[52:17.270 --> 52:17.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have you heard of it?
[52:17.930 --> 52:18.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Kinoa, which is cinema.
[52:19.390 --> 52:20.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: It means cinema in Russian.
[52:20.490 --> 52:20.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[52:21.190 --> 52:21.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[52:21.510 --> 52:24.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for your efforts.
[52:24.150 --> 52:25.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: And contact us after the show.
[52:26.250 --> 52:26.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[52:26.610 --> 52:26.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[52:31.290 --> 52:35.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's a site that's dedicated to Adrian.
[52:35.350 --> 52:42.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess it's www.freelamo.com So it kind of brings back a lot of memories of Free Kevin.
[52:42.810 --> 52:43.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[52:43.210 --> 52:44.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you were talking while I came back.
[52:44.910 --> 52:46.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: You weren't talking the whole time I was away, were you?
[52:46.790 --> 52:47.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: No.
[52:47.350 --> 52:47.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, good.
[52:47.870 --> 52:48.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a very good segue there.
[52:49.410 --> 52:53.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, freelamo.com has information on what's going on with this case.
[52:53.190 --> 52:54.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I just think it's something to follow.
[52:55.430 --> 53:04.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Regardless of any opinion you might have about the person personally, I think that's always irrelevant to looking at the case and seeing how it affects the entire community.
[53:04.910 --> 53:07.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think something like this is just a really bad thing.
[53:07.150 --> 53:13.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, someone goes out there, is very open and honest with what they're doing, and then is charged with a crime and hasn't caused any damage.
[53:13.370 --> 53:14.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is there any allegation he caused damage?
[53:15.030 --> 53:27.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, apparently the New York Times has claimed that he caused $300,000 of damage of allegedly using five Lexus Nexus accounts that were allegedly created.
[53:27.730 --> 53:33.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I can't imagine, apparently this intrusion was in February and now what is it, September?
[53:34.070 --> 53:38.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: How can you run up $300,000 of searches on LexusNexus?
[53:38.470 --> 53:39.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what I was asking as well.
[53:39.990 --> 53:41.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was February 2002.
[53:42.230 --> 53:42.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[53:42.930 --> 53:48.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but still, how can one guy run up $300,000 worth of searches?
[53:48.690 --> 53:55.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, the losses in every hacker case are grossly exaggerated so they can get their pound of flesh.
[53:55.690 --> 54:02.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kevin, what I want to know is how come it was still possible to access these accounts months after the hole had already been reported?
[54:03.410 --> 54:07.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not just to the Times, but in all, you know, the media that was covering this.
[54:07.710 --> 54:08.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that's a good question.
[54:09.910 --> 54:24.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, in Adrian's, even though I believe he liked the publicity of it all, Adrian's objective was really to find the vulnerability, expose it to the company so they would fix it, and then he would offer his services free.
[54:24.690 --> 54:36.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: It wasn't like to help them if they so desired, so it wasn't like he was trying to extort security consulting out of them, it wasn't like he was passing it to the quote-unquote black hat community.
[54:36.730 --> 54:42.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't like he was a member of the National Hacker Congress and demanding a Porsche or something like that story.
[54:42.550 --> 54:49.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly, and how the government's going to treat it, they're going to treat it just like a hacker theft case.
[54:49.910 --> 54:59.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: The government ignores the motive, whether it's a pure motive or whether it's an evil motive, to the government it is irrelevant.
[54:59.750 --> 55:16.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: They basically look at the federal statute and the elements of that statute and if they can prove that the defendant accessed a protected computer and obtained information from that protected computer, which under federal law just means use an interstate or foreign commerce,
[55:16.710 --> 55:25.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: then they're going to nail you and they don't really care where the motive issue becomes relevant is in sentencing because it's a mitigating factor.
[55:26.210 --> 55:39.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: But still, here's a 22 year old young man who is I think desperately looking for a direction in life who might end up with a felony conviction and it's going to affect him for the rest of his life.
[55:40.050 --> 55:46.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: What fascinates me though is this notion of protected computer and when you realize that that New York Times computer was not protected at all yet it had.
[55:46.950 --> 55:49.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: The protected unprotected computer.
[55:49.390 --> 55:50.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: You've got to think of the feds.
[55:52.950 --> 56:09.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: If I use a telephone line and dial into my neighbor's computer next door in the state here of Nevada the government I still think could argue it's an interstate computer because it's using the interstate phone lines.
[56:09.910 --> 56:11.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they'll take whatever they can get certainly.
[56:12.290 --> 56:12.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[56:12.790 --> 56:16.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's incredible to me that all this information is on there.
[56:17.110 --> 56:19.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: He could have changed news stories supposedly.
[56:19.570 --> 56:20.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, isn't that something...
[56:20.850 --> 56:22.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe he could have created a story by John Markoff.
[56:22.910 --> 56:23.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's right.
[56:23.870 --> 56:25.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that's how it started in the first place.
[56:25.870 --> 56:26.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[56:26.970 --> 56:31.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: If John Markoff were smart, I think he'd use that as an excuse saying, look, it wasn't me that wrote the story in the first place.
[56:31.510 --> 56:32.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there, it was Adrian Lemo.
[56:32.710 --> 56:33.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't use my byline.
[56:34.690 --> 56:38.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, this is a fascinating story, something I think we should all know about.
[56:38.110 --> 56:40.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if the New York Times had their way, nobody would have known about it.
[56:41.030 --> 56:42.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: So at least now it's out there.
[56:42.390 --> 56:46.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kevin, we're out of time, unfortunately, but we're going to follow this story and maybe have you on in weeks to come.
[56:46.790 --> 57:01.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: One other thing is, since he's going to New York, if there's any way to give him support there, since he has no family, no friends that I'm aware of in New York, it would be great if the New Yorkers out there could help this kid out because he's probably very scared.
[57:01.710 --> 57:08.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, we're going to put information about that on our website and various other places and, of course, talk about it here on the radio station.
[57:09.110 --> 57:12.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks so much for calling in and for giving us that information.
[57:12.910 --> 57:13.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're out of time.
[57:14.110 --> 57:15.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to be back again next week.
[57:15.290 --> 57:23.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Personal Computer Show is up next and we're going to go out with the music from this mystery band whose name I've already forgotten how to pronounce.
[57:23.190 --> 57:23.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did anybody remember?
[57:24.430 --> 57:24.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kanoa.
[57:25.010 --> 57:25.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kanoa, okay.
[57:26.390 --> 57:27.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is very popular in Russia.
[57:29.470 --> 57:30.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't hear it.
[57:30.750 --> 57:31.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: There it is.
[57:31.970 --> 57:32.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see you next week.
[57:32.810 --> 57:32.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.
[58:54.100 --> 59:00.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: As you've been hearing, WBAI will be sponsoring an exciting conference September 12th, 13th, and 14th.
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