Off The Hook - 2005-04-13

[00:01.780 --> 00:03.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does evil exist?
[00:03.860 --> 00:05.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is there a God?
[00:05.740 --> 00:07.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does it make sense to keep the faith?
[00:08.120 --> 00:11.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Today, such questions are hardly ever raised by the progressive left.
[00:11.520 --> 00:15.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: But asking questions like these is what the free thought movement is all about.
[00:16.400 --> 00:24.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: We believe that unless our understanding of the world is based on critical thinking and evidence, progressive changes may never occur.
[00:24.760 --> 00:30.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that is why on Sundays at 6.30 p.m., there's Equal Time for Free Thought.
[00:31.160 --> 00:37.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Equal Time for Free Thought features leading thinkers and activists from the free thought, humanist, and science communities.
[00:37.900 --> 00:43.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Join us as we explore the human experience from a perspective grounded in science and reason.
[00:43.720 --> 00:47.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let them say what they will the rest of the week.
[00:47.260 --> 00:53.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: On Sundays at 6.30 p.m., it's Equal Time for Free Thought.
[01:00.890 --> 01:04.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: And at 7 o'clock, you're listening to WBAI New York.
[01:05.330 --> 01:06.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, not this again.
[01:20.450 --> 01:21.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[01:21.770 --> 01:22.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[01:22.210 --> 01:23.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm reporting it again.
[01:23.230 --> 01:28.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the Denon Player, D-E-N-O-N, model D-N-9-6-1-F-A.
[01:29.510 --> 01:33.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you want to enjoy music at twice the speed, this is the model for you.
[01:39.700 --> 01:40.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[01:40.260 --> 01:40.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Enough of that.
[01:42.580 --> 01:43.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, okay.
[01:43.800 --> 01:44.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Here we are.
[01:44.400 --> 01:47.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Off The Hook is on the air and hopefully will sound better than our theme this week.
[01:48.320 --> 01:50.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have a sort of cast of characters again tonight.
[01:51.560 --> 01:53.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie joins us from down there in Philadelphia.
[01:53.260 --> 01:53.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, how are you doing?
[01:54.300 --> 01:54.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[01:55.760 --> 01:56.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Jim...
[01:56.480 --> 01:57.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Doing better than I was last week.
[01:57.500 --> 01:57.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's good.
[01:57.860 --> 01:58.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, you were sick last week.
[01:58.740 --> 01:59.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's why you weren't on the air.
[01:59.560 --> 01:59.560]  Sure.
[02:00.400 --> 02:04.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Jim and Mike and Redbird and Arseny and Walter are all here as well.
[02:06.900 --> 02:09.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we have some interesting bits of information.
[02:09.160 --> 02:10.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some of them might be very revealing.
[02:11.020 --> 02:12.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some of them might be very controversial.
[02:12.220 --> 02:14.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's see just what it is that we have.
[02:15.440 --> 02:21.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: To start off on a transit note, we do talk about transit a lot on this show because that's kind of of interest.
[02:21.220 --> 02:22.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: A lot of computerized things going on.
[02:23.000 --> 02:27.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: A lot of homeland security type things dealing with mass transit.
[02:27.320 --> 02:36.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: But something that has been making the rounds lately is this new, I guess, train that we have now.
[02:36.060 --> 02:44.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not really a new train, but it's a new step in a direction towards automation on the L train where they're installing a system.
[02:45.680 --> 02:47.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: They've been doing this for the last couple of years, in fact.
[02:47.460 --> 02:52.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's why everybody has been so inconvenienced getting to and from Brooklyn on the L line because they've been installing things on the track.
[02:53.380 --> 03:04.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's a new type of switching system that basically will allow for you to be standing on the platform and know when the next train is showing up, like so many other cities in the world already have.
[03:05.080 --> 03:07.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: They'll say next train in 10 minutes or something like that.
[03:08.760 --> 03:16.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: But what apparently is going along with this, and it's something that I don't quite understand, they will be eliminating the guy who opens and closes the door.
[03:16.220 --> 03:21.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, the guy who stands in the middle of the train and opens and closes the door, they're going to get rid of that guy.
[03:21.320 --> 03:23.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're only going to have somebody in the front.
[03:23.280 --> 03:26.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not even going to call that person a driver because that person won't be driving.
[03:26.360 --> 03:29.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: He'll simply be monitoring the computer that will be driving the train.
[03:29.740 --> 03:31.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, this has never been done in New York City before.
[03:32.160 --> 03:38.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I feel that this is a dramatic step in a weird direction for a mass transit here.
[03:38.540 --> 03:43.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You say this has never been done in New York City, but I believe the air train at JFK does this.
[03:43.300 --> 03:43.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, okay, fine.
[03:43.800 --> 03:46.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm talking about within the subway system.
[03:46.740 --> 03:54.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hate to tell you, but the Times Square shuttle, up until a serious fire in 1964, actually was automated.
[03:54.520 --> 03:58.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, a Times Square shuttle is really not that much more complicated than the air train because...
[03:58.820 --> 03:59.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's much less complicated.
[03:59.940 --> 04:02.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Basically going back and forth, one stop each direction.
[04:03.440 --> 04:07.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is a line, though, that has many stops and many cars.
[04:07.160 --> 04:09.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think, what, 10 cars, 11 cars?
[04:09.280 --> 04:10.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Generally, 10 cars a train.
[04:10.620 --> 04:15.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, so you have a whole lot of people there that you're responsible for on one train.
[04:16.000 --> 04:21.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, I just think of all the times that guy in the middle of the train has been helpful in one way or another.
[04:21.100 --> 04:23.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: For instance, someone's blocking the door.
[04:23.200 --> 04:25.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's the one that's going to say, get out of the way.
[04:25.320 --> 04:26.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Stop blocking the door.
[04:26.060 --> 04:31.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or if something happens on the train that needs attention, he's the person, generally, that will do something about it.
[04:31.920 --> 04:37.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Either notify an appropriate authority or, you know, help somebody with directions.
[04:37.160 --> 04:40.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: People run up to this guy and say, is this the train to Canarsie or something?
[04:40.220 --> 04:41.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he'll be the person to answer.
[04:41.620 --> 04:48.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, with nobody there, it just seems like there's going to be all kinds of potential problems that will be resulting from this, right?
[04:48.820 --> 04:49.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[04:49.800 --> 04:51.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, other cities do it, though.
[04:51.320 --> 04:53.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, what do they do in Philadelphia with their trains?
[04:53.880 --> 05:01.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they just upgraded the L cars here about four years ago to these spiffy new computerized models.
[05:01.620 --> 05:04.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they do have drivers on them.
[05:04.460 --> 05:26.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the one thing I've noticed where automation or computerization or electronic sizing, some parts of that process, has been bad is that instead of where you have two people, two employees on the train, looking at the windows of the front of the train and the back to see if everyone has boarded the train,
[05:26.560 --> 05:43.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: now there's a video camera from the platform that transmitted a wireless video signal to the train, to an antenna that's embedded between the tracks, and it's picked up by a receiver in the front of the train where there's a monitor, and the driver just can see who's on the platform.
[05:43.940 --> 05:45.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they don't ever look at it.
[05:45.480 --> 05:51.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have seen countless people get guillotined by these doors.
[05:51.680 --> 06:01.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: I literally had to save an 80-year-old man from being dragged away by his neck or by his head a couple years ago.
[06:01.380 --> 06:04.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And those doors, you can't just push them and they just fly open again.
[06:04.360 --> 06:05.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to struggle with these doors.
[06:06.040 --> 06:08.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: The doors literally closed on his neck.
[06:08.380 --> 06:09.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: He had a cane.
[06:10.360 --> 06:17.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I called SEPTA and raised hell, and apparently it never solved the problem, because they still closed.
[06:17.260 --> 06:18.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've had a door close on me.
[06:18.340 --> 06:20.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they give you like two seconds after the...
[06:20.460 --> 06:24.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: The doors actually start closing before the announcement says doors are closing.
[06:25.600 --> 06:26.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
[06:26.900 --> 06:27.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's a way here, too.
[06:28.060 --> 06:33.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you notice, the train goes bing-bong, but it doesn't go bing-bong until after the door starts to close.
[06:33.760 --> 06:36.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, yeah, there's not much warning at all.
[06:37.520 --> 06:39.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: And there are a number of things that...
[06:39.380 --> 06:43.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm surprised that there wasn't much of a fuss raised over an incident like that.
[06:43.860 --> 06:46.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know if something like that were to happen here, I think people would be pretty upset.
[06:46.920 --> 06:48.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I would hope so, anyway.
[06:48.720 --> 06:59.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: But just blocking the door, for instance, if you stick something in the door and it doesn't close, and there's nobody around to check the door, how is that ever going to be resolved?
[07:00.160 --> 07:07.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is the driver or whoever it is watching the monitor, are they going to get out of the cab and walk through every single car and figure out where the blockage is?
[07:07.880 --> 07:09.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, who is going to be watching over these things?
[07:11.040 --> 07:12.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've never seen it happen.
[07:12.920 --> 07:13.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've seen them...
[07:13.460 --> 07:15.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've heard them make announcements on SEPTA.
[07:16.780 --> 07:19.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please stop messing around with the doors.
[07:19.580 --> 07:21.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because kids sometimes do that.
[07:21.460 --> 07:21.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[07:21.700 --> 07:23.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it wasn't me, honest.
[07:27.040 --> 07:28.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they just keep...
[07:28.460 --> 07:32.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just sit there and say, hey, stop messing with the doors.
[07:32.560 --> 07:38.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then sometimes I've seen them pull out with the doors still open part way with some kid that was messing with it.
[07:38.440 --> 07:44.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that tells me that if someone were stuck on the door and they weren't looking at the video monitor, they could pull that person away.
[07:45.100 --> 07:46.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's scary.
[07:46.660 --> 07:47.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is.
[07:47.240 --> 07:51.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I know a lot of people feel safer being in the car with the guy.
[07:51.540 --> 07:52.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, with the guy that opens the door.
[07:53.120 --> 07:58.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: People gravitate towards the middle car, especially late at night, because they know somebody is there in case they get attacked or something like that.
[07:58.920 --> 08:00.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: That guy's not going to be there anymore.
[08:00.940 --> 08:05.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, you know, are you going to feel safe knowing that there's a computer watching over you?
[08:05.420 --> 08:06.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: That there may be a camera in the car?
[08:06.980 --> 08:07.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[08:07.260 --> 08:08.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do these cars now have cameras in them?
[08:09.040 --> 08:09.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think that's...
[08:09.560 --> 08:11.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: People are being replaced with cameras a lot of times.
[08:11.480 --> 08:11.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Redbirds?
[08:12.020 --> 08:15.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: They haven't really released any details about how these trains are going to work.
[08:15.900 --> 08:17.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: As far as I've seen anyway, they just kind of...
[08:17.760 --> 08:19.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: just very brief news articles.
[08:19.980 --> 08:24.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's called CBTC, which stands for Communications-Based Train Control.
[08:26.200 --> 08:30.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And basically, it's the automated way of doing things.
[08:31.320 --> 08:33.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, this is only happening on the L train.
[08:33.880 --> 08:39.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: For some reason, a story was released last week on the Associated Press, and everybody's jumped on it like it's news.
[08:39.860 --> 08:42.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this really is something that has been known for a while.
[08:42.240 --> 08:43.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's happening this month.
[08:43.400 --> 08:44.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't believe it's happened yet.
[08:44.400 --> 08:45.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think we'll know when it happens.
[08:45.960 --> 08:46.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jim, do you know something about this?
[08:46.800 --> 08:50.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, the TA has said that they're starting to really install it this month.
[08:50.560 --> 08:56.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in fact, the L train will be shut down the weekend of June the 4th and 5th.
[08:56.540 --> 08:57.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, it's shut down every weekend.
[08:58.120 --> 09:00.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's been for this.
[09:00.620 --> 09:02.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it will be shut down that week.
[09:02.280 --> 09:04.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that will be the last week that they install things.
[09:04.940 --> 09:06.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And after that, it's going.
[09:06.820 --> 09:08.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I want to be on the first train.
[09:09.300 --> 09:10.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe I don't want to be on the first train.
[09:10.940 --> 09:14.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: I want to be on one of the first trains that is automated.
[09:14.540 --> 09:16.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: We went to the air train debut.
[09:16.340 --> 09:17.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Remember, that's an automated train.
[09:17.680 --> 09:19.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it was all broken the first time we went there.
[09:19.940 --> 09:22.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: They couldn't figure out how to get the door closed or something like that.
[09:24.240 --> 09:26.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's kind of wacky.
[09:26.740 --> 09:27.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: It really is.
[09:28.000 --> 09:41.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: In New York, Emmanuel, in New York, do they still, with the subway there, do they still have a transit worker in the front of the train and in the back of the train look out the windows and blow whistles at each other when the coast is clear to pull away?
[09:41.440 --> 09:42.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: They've never had...
[09:42.160 --> 09:43.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: You'd say in New York?
[09:43.960 --> 09:44.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Whistles?
[09:44.720 --> 09:45.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: They've never had that in New York.
[09:46.120 --> 09:46.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[09:46.360 --> 09:50.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: They've always done that here except in Philadelphia up until about three years ago when they got the new cars.
[09:50.980 --> 09:51.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[09:51.380 --> 09:53.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought that was quaint, but it always worked.
[09:53.680 --> 09:54.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, in New York...
[09:55.280 --> 09:55.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sorry.
[09:56.260 --> 10:03.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: In New York, what you have is the motorman in the beginning of the train, in front of the train, and the conductor in the back of the train, middle, rather.
[10:03.460 --> 10:05.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what happens is the doors...
[10:05.940 --> 10:11.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: If the doors stay ajar, a light is on in the conductor's cab.
[10:11.220 --> 10:15.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's also a light on in the motorman's cab.
[10:15.220 --> 10:19.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the conductor should buzz the motorman when he has indication.
[10:20.100 --> 10:25.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: If he doesn't have indication, he buzzes them a different signal and, you know, don't move the damn train.
[10:25.540 --> 10:29.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, the motorman, that's the guy that's really going to be just watching the computer.
[10:30.020 --> 10:30.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[10:30.540 --> 10:32.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: And do you even call the motorman at that point?
[10:32.680 --> 10:36.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think they're doing something about changing the title, believe it or not.
[10:36.480 --> 10:43.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyway, that's a job that I could see somebody sort of, like, not taking very seriously because all they're doing is watching a machine all the time.
[10:43.580 --> 10:52.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're going to want to kick back and rest and you're going to see trains pulling into stations with people fast asleep in the front cab and that's not really going to do much to inspire confidence, I don't think.
[10:52.600 --> 10:53.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why do they even...
[10:53.740 --> 10:54.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sorry, Walter.
[10:54.360 --> 10:58.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why do they even let the train move if they know the door is open?
[10:59.180 --> 11:00.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think they will.
[11:00.300 --> 11:01.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: They try not to, currently.
[11:01.840 --> 11:03.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, but why are they...
[11:03.360 --> 11:04.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, a motorman...
[11:04.040 --> 11:09.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because there's no cutout switch that, you know, there's no switch connected to the doors that stops the motor from going.
[11:09.400 --> 11:09.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why not?
[11:10.140 --> 11:10.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, there should be.
[11:10.900 --> 11:18.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it's because they've used so many trains in work circumstances where that's not necessarily something you want.
[11:18.720 --> 11:20.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's an extra layer of protection.
[11:20.580 --> 11:26.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: You like to have the doors open if you're cleaning the walls in between stations or if you're wiring signals.
[11:27.520 --> 11:32.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Why don't they just have a loud noise go off in the motorman's cab every time they pull into a station?
[11:33.640 --> 11:35.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: I guess I would make that job even more fun.
[11:36.980 --> 11:37.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[11:37.820 --> 11:39.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't understand what the problem is, though.
[11:39.500 --> 11:43.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is wrong with having the guy stay there and have all this technology at work?
[11:43.700 --> 11:45.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it seems to me like you need human beings in addition.
[11:46.680 --> 11:52.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, what I heard one person theorizing on was that they're simply going to hire more cops to replace the motor...
[11:52.520 --> 11:53.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: The door...
[11:53.680 --> 11:54.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: What do they call those guys?
[11:54.440 --> 11:54.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: The conductors?
[11:54.900 --> 11:56.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: The conductors are in the middle opening and closing bars.
[11:56.740 --> 11:59.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, I don't think that's the solution to have more cops around.
[11:59.200 --> 12:01.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think the solution is to have people doing their job.
[12:01.680 --> 12:04.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: And to me, that's been an important job.
[12:04.500 --> 12:07.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Somebody who watches over the train who's not necessarily in the front.
[12:08.120 --> 12:10.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Somebody who's in the middle who can see things the other guy can't see.
[12:11.340 --> 12:15.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: So hopefully some sense will be made out of this.
[12:15.240 --> 12:17.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, Arseny, you got a letter from the Transit Authority this week.
[12:17.300 --> 12:17.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[12:19.200 --> 12:26.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: We were having a debate last week about the flags placed on buses and trains and things.
[12:26.340 --> 12:28.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I convinced them to send me...
[12:28.420 --> 12:28.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, wait.
[12:28.840 --> 12:31.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: When you say the flags, did we talk about this on the air, about the flags?
[12:31.720 --> 12:31.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think we did.
[12:32.000 --> 12:32.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[12:32.160 --> 12:32.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[12:32.440 --> 12:33.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: So what was your question?
[12:34.200 --> 12:41.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: I wanted to know why the American flags, they're called decals by the MTA, why they were, I guess, reversed.
[12:43.000 --> 12:44.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I called them...
[12:44.020 --> 12:44.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: On the buses.
[12:44.260 --> 12:48.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: On the buses, in the subway, trains, even ferries.
[12:48.120 --> 12:50.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're saying reversed because the stars are on the...
[12:50.720 --> 12:51.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: What side?
[12:51.140 --> 12:51.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: What side should they be on?
[12:52.280 --> 12:53.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess they're always on the right.
[12:54.400 --> 12:55.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're always on the right?
[12:55.280 --> 12:56.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I thought they were on the what?
[12:56.300 --> 12:57.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, they're reversed.
[12:57.680 --> 13:00.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, they're definitely reversed in some, not all of them.
[13:00.480 --> 13:01.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it depends.
[13:01.420 --> 13:05.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are the stripes going horizontal or parallel to the floor or are they going vertical?
[13:05.340 --> 13:06.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, they're parallel.
[13:06.640 --> 13:07.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're parallel to the floor.
[13:07.560 --> 13:08.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that's always going the right way.
[13:08.980 --> 13:12.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: So in that case, the field, the blue field should be in the upper right.
[13:13.480 --> 13:14.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it's the left.
[13:15.620 --> 13:16.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, sorry, you're right.
[13:17.880 --> 13:19.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: My other right.
[13:19.300 --> 13:25.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, but what we've noticed on trains and buses is that often it's facing the other way.
[13:25.320 --> 13:27.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: You actually wrote a letter to the transit authority?
[13:28.060 --> 13:31.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I called them and gave them a very strange story.
[13:32.840 --> 13:35.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that convinced them, I guess, to send me a letter.
[13:35.520 --> 13:36.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: What strange story did you give them?
[13:36.700 --> 13:53.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, well, I told them that I was walking around with my grandfather and he interpreted the reversal of the flags as an offense to him as a veteran and that because of his heart condition, he couldn't... he was getting all uppity about it and he was about to,
[13:53.060 --> 13:54.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: you know, go berserk or something.
[13:54.200 --> 14:00.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I said I would like it if they wrote me a letter, well, wrote him a letter, explaining this in writing.
[14:01.320 --> 14:04.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: You didn't think you could just ask them what this is all about?
[14:04.160 --> 14:05.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I did ask them.
[14:05.280 --> 14:08.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, I mean, at first they told me, you know, probably someone glued it on backwards.
[14:08.700 --> 14:13.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then, of course, I asked for the supervisor's opinion and she said the same thing, that they probably glued them on backwards.
[14:14.440 --> 14:18.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then I got transferred to a different department and they gave me a more precise answer.
[14:18.940 --> 14:20.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, okay, why don't you read that to us?
[14:20.460 --> 14:21.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, it's...
[14:21.800 --> 14:31.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Dear Mr. My Fake Name, this is your response to your recent telephone call regarding the placement of American flag decals on the New York City transit buses.
[14:32.320 --> 14:35.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yours was one of many similar inquiries on the subject.
[14:35.520 --> 14:40.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: New York City Transit researched the rules of etiquette concerning the display of the American flag.
[14:40.580 --> 14:53.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: According to these rules, the blue field of stars should always be in the observer's left, except when the flag is displayed on the casket, when the flag is worn as a patch on the right arm, or when the flag is displayed as a decal on the right side of a vehicle.
[14:54.220 --> 14:58.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: In short, on the right side of a vehicle, the blue flag should be on the observer's right.
[14:58.720 --> 15:02.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: And on the left side of a vehicle, The blue field should be on the observer's left.
[15:02.780 --> 15:11.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: A very prominent example of this can be seen on Air Force One, the President's airplane, as well as on the NASA Space Shuttle.
[15:11.360 --> 15:14.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: We hope that clears up any misunderstandings.
[15:14.360 --> 15:15.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Sincerely, Christopher R.
[15:15.800 --> 15:19.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Lake, who is the Assistant Chief Transportation Officer, and he actually signed it.
[15:20.180 --> 15:20.660]  Wow.
[15:20.900 --> 15:23.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: That opens up a whole kettle of fish as far as misunderstandings, though.
[15:24.100 --> 15:26.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, first of all, what's this thing about caskets?
[15:26.700 --> 15:28.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: They somehow saying...
[15:28.320 --> 15:31.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, then it would be vertical on the casket.
[15:31.480 --> 15:33.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: It would be going lengthwise along the casket.
[15:33.780 --> 15:42.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I think the whole issue here is that if there were a real flag on the bus, it would be blowing in the direction that they paced it on to the side of the bus.
[15:42.120 --> 15:44.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they're saying on the left side, it goes one way on the right side.
[15:44.340 --> 15:45.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I mean, that...
[15:45.120 --> 15:47.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because it's like the flag goes through the bus.
[15:48.180 --> 15:50.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it would be on the same...
[15:50.440 --> 15:53.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: So if you were on the left side of the bus, you're going to see it normally.
[15:53.720 --> 15:58.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if you're looking at the right side of the bus, it would be reversed as though you were looking at the other side of the flag.
[15:59.720 --> 16:05.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just think of it as if you were flying two real flags on the bus, on the side of the buses, that's the direction that they would be pointing in.
[16:05.680 --> 16:07.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's their explanation, basically.
[16:07.480 --> 16:09.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or just one flag on top of the bus.
[16:09.780 --> 16:12.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: But why would it be facing on the left side of the bus?
[16:12.540 --> 16:14.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why would it be facing a different way than on the right side of the bus?
[16:14.840 --> 16:17.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, just think of the way that you would be looking at it on the actual bus.
[16:18.020 --> 16:20.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, like if you were flying a flag, it would be attached to a flagpole, right?
[16:20.780 --> 16:21.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[16:21.200 --> 16:27.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so if you were looking at it from the left side, you see it flying, you know, behind, it would be going behind the bus because of the direction the bus is moving.
[16:27.720 --> 16:34.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: And on the right side, it would be also going behind the bus, but the flagpole would be attached to where the fields are, where the field of stars is.
[16:34.440 --> 16:34.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[16:34.840 --> 16:36.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it would be... you would see it going...
[16:37.320 --> 16:39.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm going to have to do some experimentation with this.
[16:39.740 --> 16:41.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, some flagpoles onto buses and see what...
[16:41.900 --> 16:45.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a red and black anarchist flag, in which direction should the diagonal go?
[16:46.140 --> 16:47.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, now you're really getting complicated.
[16:47.860 --> 16:48.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[16:49.540 --> 16:51.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a proper way to fly the anarchist flag?
[16:51.700 --> 16:53.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, but maybe someone else knows.
[16:53.880 --> 16:54.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bernie, look.
[16:54.340 --> 16:57.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have... no, I don't have an anarchist flag, but I did.
[16:57.980 --> 17:21.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was told by Laszlo on our trip to Prague, he mentioned that he'd read in a magazine, I think it was in The Nation, that there's a protocol for having a flag with the blue on the left versus on the right, that the protocol varies depending on whether we're in a nation at wartime or not.
[17:22.740 --> 17:28.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he'd said that he'd read in this article, I think it was The Nation, but it could be wrong, that the U.S.
[17:28.840 --> 17:38.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: military has ordered, like, tons of uniforms with the flag in this direction, like, more uniforms than they're going to need for the next few years.
[17:39.480 --> 17:49.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know, maybe one of our listeners knows something about that protocol as to whether the flag is... it should be positioned on a uniform one way when we're at war and another way when we're not at war.
[17:51.500 --> 17:52.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's interesting.
[17:52.640 --> 17:59.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And whether that has any bearing on how MTA is displaying their flags.
[17:59.980 --> 18:04.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, of course, all these flags were put on the trains and buses after 9-11.
[18:04.460 --> 18:07.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: There were no flags on trains and buses before then.
[18:07.320 --> 18:11.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, in a sense, I guess, it is sort of something like that.
[18:12.060 --> 18:13.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's kind of weird.
[18:13.500 --> 18:16.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'd like to look at these things a little bit closer and see if they actually did get it right.
[18:16.920 --> 18:19.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, the consensus here is that it makes sense?
[18:19.180 --> 18:19.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[18:20.100 --> 18:20.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[18:20.520 --> 18:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[18:21.020 --> 18:24.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: This would all be a lot simpler if we all moved to Libya, which just has a plain green flag.
[18:25.120 --> 18:25.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[18:25.560 --> 18:26.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nothing on it?
[18:26.100 --> 18:26.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nothing on it.
[18:26.740 --> 18:27.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Plain green.
[18:27.660 --> 18:28.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or Japan.
[18:28.740 --> 18:29.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Japan would be easy, too.
[18:30.100 --> 18:30.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: France.
[18:34.460 --> 18:35.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many symmetrical flags are there?
[18:35.940 --> 18:36.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: A lot.
[18:37.080 --> 18:42.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just amazing to me how there haven't been wars over the fact that certain flags look too much like other flags.
[18:43.040 --> 18:44.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: There probably have been.
[18:44.560 --> 18:44.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe.
[18:45.360 --> 18:45.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe.
[18:46.140 --> 18:52.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, speaking of the media defining the story, we saw something in the New York Times yesterday that...
[18:53.320 --> 18:55.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've gotten so much mail over this, it's really not even funny.
[18:56.500 --> 19:10.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is a story about the arrests at the Republican Convention and about how all of these video documents, these videotapes that people have made, are resulting in people's cases being dropped.
[19:10.660 --> 19:12.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, this is old news.
[19:12.140 --> 19:13.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is very old news.
[19:13.500 --> 19:15.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it made the front page of the Times.
[19:16.000 --> 19:17.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did it make the front page of the paper Times?
[19:17.780 --> 19:18.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or just the web...
[19:18.380 --> 19:18.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[19:19.060 --> 19:21.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And all of a sudden, it's news again.
[19:21.840 --> 19:23.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, maybe it's news for the first time.
[19:23.820 --> 19:25.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: But everybody's talking about this.
[19:25.600 --> 19:26.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow, did you hear about this?
[19:26.620 --> 19:31.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: All these people are getting their cases dropped because of the evidence showing that the cops were lying.
[19:32.440 --> 19:46.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, one case is cited where the city is shown to have actually edited the tape to extract the part that shows a person behaving peacefully so that they could accuse him of behaving non-peacefully.
[19:46.860 --> 19:47.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very condemning.
[19:47.900 --> 19:48.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very condemning evidence.
[19:49.020 --> 19:57.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: The question is never raised, though, as to what kind of charges the police officers and their superiors will be facing as a result of lying like this.
[19:57.760 --> 19:59.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a very easy question to answer.
[19:59.640 --> 20:00.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: None at all.
[20:00.600 --> 20:00.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[20:00.860 --> 20:01.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, then the question is...
[20:01.900 --> 20:03.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: The question is why...
[20:03.500 --> 20:05.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why is it that they don't face anything?
[20:05.840 --> 20:06.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, that's the question.
[20:07.000 --> 20:08.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, not only was the tape...
[20:08.380 --> 20:26.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was the police version of the tape edited to have the exculpatory information excised from the tape, but the police officer falsely testified that, you know, under oath, that this person was behaving in a way that this was not at all consistent with the tape.
[20:26.480 --> 20:30.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, like he was kicking and screaming and all that kind of stuff.
[20:30.360 --> 20:41.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, my point is that police are almost never prosecuted for perjury, which this clearly is, because the officer in question would never be...
[20:41.520 --> 20:43.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, first of all, they might have to go to jail.
[20:43.380 --> 20:45.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And second of all, they'd be useless to the government.
[20:45.940 --> 20:47.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And third, they could never...
[20:47.580 --> 20:55.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even if they remained on the force, they could never be a witness again in anything, because they'd have this perjury saying, well, this obviously is not a credible witness.
[20:56.200 --> 20:58.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, that's why they're not prosecuted.
[20:58.260 --> 21:12.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: My interpretation of what's been going on is, as one of the defendants and having witnessed the behavior of the police on the stands, and behind the scenes as well, they're being told what to say by the prosecutors.
[21:12.300 --> 21:16.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: The prosecutors are basically telling them what their testimony is, and they recite it.
[21:16.500 --> 21:18.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Lots of times, they were not even there.
[21:18.020 --> 21:24.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've seen them say things that were completely untrue, and they seem just as puzzled at what they're saying as anybody.
[21:24.660 --> 21:32.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: That doesn't get them off the hook, but it certainly should point the finger at who these people are who are telling them what to say, because...
[21:32.100 --> 21:32.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Under oath.
[21:32.760 --> 21:33.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Under oath.
[21:33.300 --> 21:33.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: Absolutely.
[21:34.000 --> 21:37.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: They should still be held responsible for what they're saying, regardless of who's telling them to say that.
[21:37.720 --> 21:39.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, just as anyone else would have been.
[21:39.420 --> 21:43.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they're not the ones that are generating these false stories, I don't think.
[21:43.080 --> 21:43.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're under oath.
[21:44.480 --> 21:45.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, they're under oath.
[21:45.440 --> 21:51.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, the people telling them what to say, they're not under oath, but I still think they bear some culpability for this, a lot.
[21:51.280 --> 21:52.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Total culpability.
[21:52.520 --> 21:54.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't matter what anybody told you to say.
[21:54.620 --> 21:57.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: When you're under oath in a court of law, you have to tell the truth.
[21:57.680 --> 21:59.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can't say, well...
[21:59.560 --> 22:04.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can't say something different than the truth because the prosecutor told you to say that.
[22:04.600 --> 22:05.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's still perjury.
[22:05.420 --> 22:06.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unless you're a police officer, though.
[22:07.140 --> 22:07.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, apparently...
[22:07.920 --> 22:08.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: You've got to read the rules.
[22:09.420 --> 22:13.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, those are the rules that are unwritten that seem to be ones that everybody goes by.
[22:13.080 --> 22:14.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think they've actually written them down now.
[22:14.860 --> 22:18.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're so cocky at this point.
[22:18.500 --> 22:22.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to return to how this got on to page A1 of the Times.
[22:22.860 --> 22:26.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's absolutely nothing new in this article.
[22:26.160 --> 22:32.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Indy Media had an article in January which had not only the same general thrust, but many of the same examples.
[22:32.680 --> 22:33.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: And even that was well after.
[22:34.040 --> 22:37.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was known by so many people because this was known in October.
[22:38.820 --> 22:39.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no news here.
[22:40.080 --> 22:40.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[22:40.260 --> 22:51.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the Times put it on page A1 and usually stories get on the front page of the Times either because they're like world news, like the Pope dying, or because it was like an in-depth analysis and they're very proud of it.
[22:51.960 --> 22:52.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Pope died?
[22:52.640 --> 22:53.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I heard that.
[22:54.040 --> 22:54.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, dear.
[22:56.200 --> 22:59.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I'm really wondering which category this falls into.
[22:59.800 --> 23:03.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, did the Times really spend months researching the story that the cops lie?
[23:03.500 --> 23:04.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know what's funny?
[23:04.460 --> 23:11.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was written by Jim Dwyer who used to write the subway column in Newsday, which I think sort of brings our two stories we've talked about so far together in a weird kind of a way.
[23:12.360 --> 23:15.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: But yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying and I feel the same way.
[23:15.580 --> 23:20.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: But at the same time, I also feel we should take advantage of this because it has generated a lot of publicity.
[23:20.600 --> 23:22.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe people will start asking questions now.
[23:23.580 --> 23:27.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: And yeah, I don't know why it took so long to get into the paper in the first place, but it's there now.
[23:27.540 --> 23:30.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we should run with the publicity that it's generating.
[23:31.040 --> 23:34.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe next month they'll have an expose that cops sometimes run red lights.
[23:35.100 --> 23:38.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I think they have something about Bush not really being elected in 2000.
[23:38.720 --> 23:39.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know...
[23:39.620 --> 23:40.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jim, yes.
[23:40.100 --> 23:47.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Speaking about the Pope dying, the Pope is about to perform a miracle posthumously right here, right now.
[23:47.220 --> 23:48.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: I got Pope news.
[23:48.320 --> 23:54.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: I do have Pope news, but I want to finish with this first because we do have a couple of other things related to it.
[23:54.280 --> 23:59.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: First of all, the National Lawyers Guild, these are the people responsible for everybody's defense.
[24:00.040 --> 24:06.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: All the people who were arrested for the RNC have gotten marvelous support network from the National Lawyers Guild, New York City chapter.
[24:07.160 --> 24:09.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're having a benefit next Wednesday, April 20th.
[24:10.120 --> 24:12.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, it's a customary.
[24:12.220 --> 24:14.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have to schedule these things during our show.
[24:14.260 --> 24:14.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know.
[24:15.500 --> 24:16.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't want us around.
[24:16.780 --> 24:17.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's...
[24:17.200 --> 24:18.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: You don't have to say it, but it's true.
[24:18.960 --> 24:19.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: From 6 p.m.
[24:19.900 --> 24:20.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: to 10 p.m.
[24:21.020 --> 24:23.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's at a place called Galapagos.
[24:23.200 --> 24:26.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's on 70 North 6th Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
[24:26.780 --> 24:30.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, yes, you'll have to take the L train to get there, or maybe the Jay-Z you can take.
[24:32.020 --> 24:36.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's basically a donation at the door, and there'll be all kinds of DJs and dancing, things like that.
[24:37.000 --> 24:43.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's a fundraiser for the RNC mass defense slash offense team of the National Lawyers Guild.
[24:46.140 --> 24:52.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, there's no website there, but the address again, 70 North 6th Street, a place called Galapagos.
[24:52.960 --> 24:54.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's Wednesday, April 20th, 6 p.m.
[24:54.980 --> 24:55.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: to 10 p.m.
[24:55.520 --> 24:58.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Fundraiser for the good folks at the National Lawyers Guild.
[24:59.260 --> 25:07.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was another story that broke yesterday having to do with the Citigroup building and various other financial institutions.
[25:07.440 --> 25:08.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Remember this?
[25:08.320 --> 25:11.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some guy was caught with photos of the building.
[25:11.840 --> 25:19.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: And now several people have been indicted in England, I believe.
[25:19.580 --> 25:21.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: While they've been indicted here, they're still in England.
[25:23.040 --> 25:26.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the indictment was unveiled yesterday in U.S.
[25:26.840 --> 25:38.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: District Court here in Manhattan, charging three men with conspiring to bomb financial institutions in New York City, Washington, and New Jersey in a scheme between 1988 and 2004.
[25:38.480 --> 25:46.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: The case caused federal authorities to raise the terror alert too high for specific institutions, which the defendants had identified.
[25:46.160 --> 25:53.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: It also caused all kinds of problems for us going to the 2600 meeting because we had to, well, we were blocked from entering the building for a while.
[25:53.840 --> 25:57.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And to this day, they have metal detectors for people's packages.
[25:57.660 --> 26:04.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, the thing that I'm wondering about here, what exactly are these people being accused of doing?
[26:04.400 --> 26:12.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: All I've heard so far, all I've heard as far as concrete evidence is that they had pictures of various buildings and that they were conspiring in some way.
[26:13.060 --> 26:14.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: But conspiracy is a very nebulous term.
[26:15.140 --> 26:19.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, just by hanging out with somebody, you can be accused of conspiring with them.
[26:19.900 --> 26:24.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have all kinds of bits of evidence here.
[26:24.980 --> 26:25.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Listen to this.
[26:25.640 --> 26:40.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: This guy named Barrett made repeated trips back and forth between the United Kingdom and the United States on flights, each time arriving at JFK and traveling with two men, either Tamahad or Shafai.
[26:40.780 --> 26:44.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: The defendants traveled on the same flights and stayed at the same hotels.
[26:45.060 --> 26:46.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: The indictment charges.
[26:46.540 --> 26:48.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's one of the charges, apparently.
[26:48.920 --> 26:52.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Herod and Tamahad traveled to Washington in late August 2000.
[26:52.820 --> 26:55.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: The indictment charges that Barrett was in the U.S.
[26:55.500 --> 26:57.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: until April 8th, 2001, when he left for the U.K.
[26:58.320 --> 27:06.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: The indictment notes that the trio conspired with others, known and unknown, a hint that officials have co-conspirators who are cooperating with the case.
[27:06.800 --> 27:20.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: They are charged with conspiring in a plot to maliciously damage and destroy by means of fire and an explosive, buildings, vehicles, and other real and personal property used in interstate and foreign commerce, and its activities affecting interstate and foreign commerce.
[27:20.480 --> 27:21.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know what any of that means.
[27:22.140 --> 27:23.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: They travel and they have friends.
[27:24.040 --> 27:27.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's, you know, that's what I read out of that as far as specific evidence.
[27:27.700 --> 27:33.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, the conspiracy, okay, they have not given any information as far as what are they saying?
[27:33.900 --> 27:34.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who are they talking to?
[27:35.080 --> 27:36.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: What specifically were they planning?
[27:36.360 --> 27:43.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: The only specific things we've seen are photographs of buildings and the fact that they travel together and stay in the same hotels and are Middle Eastern.
[27:44.020 --> 27:45.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, I'm not saying these guys weren't up to something.
[27:46.040 --> 27:46.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe they are.
[27:46.600 --> 27:55.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: But based on the lies I've seen from the NYPD, based on the way the media concocts stories at its convenience, I have to look at this with a real grain of salt, a lot of them.
[27:55.920 --> 28:00.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: Weren't those photos like three or four years old at the time that all the security like was put in place?
[28:00.820 --> 28:02.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: Like it was way after the fact.
[28:02.420 --> 28:04.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I mean, this was done in 2000.
[28:04.000 --> 28:05.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: They were making these trips and taking pictures.
[28:06.360 --> 28:07.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can see.
[28:07.440 --> 28:09.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, Bernie, you've seen evidence fabricated.
[28:09.940 --> 28:14.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: You've seen how the authorities can lie and make things out of nothing.
[28:14.440 --> 28:16.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm just wondering, is that what's happening here?
[28:16.580 --> 28:26.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oftentimes, there's a shred of truth to the evidence as far as, yes, there was a picture, but how it's represented is something completely different.
[28:26.860 --> 28:32.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, whether it's a hardware or software or videotape, this stuff can be twisted.
[28:32.560 --> 28:41.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the government is really a master and wrote the book at twisting evidence to make it appear completely different than what really happened.
[28:41.320 --> 28:42.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So who knows if that's what's happened.
[28:42.860 --> 28:56.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: One thing I do find encouraging in this is that these defendants were actually charged in the normal criminal procedure way as opposed to just being renditioned to Egypt or somewhere where they could be tortured.
[28:56.360 --> 28:59.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, they have much better, much better choice in the matter.
[28:59.720 --> 29:00.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's because they're in another country right now.
[29:00.920 --> 29:01.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, they're in England right now.
[29:02.000 --> 29:02.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's why.
[29:02.620 --> 29:06.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: And England is not going to extradite them here because we have the death penalty.
[29:06.580 --> 29:06.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[29:07.560 --> 29:12.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: So that's, you know, and I'm just wondering, the death penalty for what exactly?
[29:12.280 --> 29:13.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: What exactly are we talking about?
[29:14.120 --> 29:17.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's this one piece here that reminded me so much of your case, Bernie.
[29:17.000 --> 29:26.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: This guy, Deren Barrow, the main antagonist here, I guess, 32 years old, he was charged with possessing reconnaissance plans for the U.S.
[29:27.080 --> 29:38.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: institutions and notebooks containing information on explosives, poisons, chemicals, and related matters, quote, of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, unquote.
[29:38.880 --> 29:41.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: You just described the Internet, you know?
[29:41.440 --> 29:49.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, if he has links on his computer or even just access to the Internet, they could say that there's stuff on that laptop.
[29:49.960 --> 29:50.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[29:50.220 --> 30:00.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, this other guy, Tomahad, however I'm mangling the name, Tomahad or whatever, he was charged, along with Barrow, with possessing plans of the Prudential Building.
[30:01.440 --> 30:04.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, I've seen blueprints of a lot of interesting buildings.
[30:04.980 --> 30:05.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know what that makes me.
[30:06.180 --> 30:06.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Terrorist?
[30:06.820 --> 30:07.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Probably.
[30:07.260 --> 30:15.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: He was charged in Britain with possessing an extract from the terrorist handbook on the preparation of chemicals, explosive recipes, and other information.
[30:15.900 --> 30:17.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: First of all, what is this terrorist handbook?
[30:17.720 --> 30:20.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that someone's tongue-in-cheek title, or is it actually a handbook of terrorists?
[30:20.980 --> 30:23.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think they're screwing up the anarchist's handbook, the classic...
[30:23.720 --> 30:24.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anarchist cookbook.
[30:25.080 --> 30:25.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anarchist cookbook, sorry.
[30:25.800 --> 30:26.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: It could be a sequel.
[30:26.800 --> 30:27.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: It could be just something else.
[30:28.120 --> 30:28.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it could be.
[30:30.020 --> 30:32.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyway, so, you know, I'm not trying to make light of the situation here.
[30:32.740 --> 30:43.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe these are dangerous people, but in light of the way I've seen cases be concocted in the past, the way I've seen people lie on the stand, I really have to doubt what we're seeing in the newspapers.
[30:44.380 --> 30:45.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'd like to hear other insights on that.
[30:45.900 --> 30:46.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Speaking of...
[30:46.320 --> 30:46.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, okay.
[30:46.940 --> 30:47.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Go ahead.
[30:47.320 --> 30:48.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have another issue, so I'll bring it up.
[30:48.720 --> 30:49.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Go ahead.
[30:49.040 --> 30:49.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bring it up.
[30:49.660 --> 30:54.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just speaking of other cases, the RIAA and MPAA are going on a whole new slew of...
[30:54.600 --> 30:55.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I know.
[30:55.240 --> 30:56.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're going after college kids again.
[30:56.600 --> 30:56.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[30:56.840 --> 30:57.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Easy target.
[30:57.440 --> 31:09.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's true, except this time the difference is that the network that they targeted or that they snooped around on was Internet 2, which is only accessible from university networks at certain universities.
[31:10.720 --> 31:26.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so the question comes up, how did they actually get into it, short of either sitting down at a university and maybe, like, jumping on their wireless network or potentially conspiring with students to get, you know, information maybe in exchange for immunity?
[31:26.800 --> 31:27.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, I'm sure.
[31:27.380 --> 31:28.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sure it's the latter.
[31:28.420 --> 31:29.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: I really am sure.
[31:29.360 --> 31:29.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[31:29.560 --> 31:31.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we were just talking about this the other week.
[31:31.220 --> 31:36.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think maybe after the show, we were talking about Internet 2 and how it's being used by maybe somebody who's listening to us.
[31:37.380 --> 31:38.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: It could have been it.
[31:39.140 --> 31:40.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: We do talk kind of loudly sometimes.
[31:40.700 --> 31:41.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, it was...
[31:41.440 --> 31:43.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it wasn't something that was secret.
[31:43.400 --> 31:44.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: There was a whole...
[31:44.260 --> 31:47.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think i2hub.com or .info or something was about...
[31:47.940 --> 31:51.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: These people had set up a hub using the Internet 2 network to share files.
[31:51.880 --> 31:55.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, everyone said, oh, well, it's so safe because they can't get on it.
[31:55.560 --> 31:58.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in the end, where there's a will, there's a way.
[31:58.200 --> 32:01.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: And especially since it was so heavily advertised as being a place to trade files.
[32:04.880 --> 32:06.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, Jim, you had some Pope news, I believe.
[32:06.800 --> 32:07.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[32:07.460 --> 32:11.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: The miracle that the Pope is about to perform is he's going to be mentioned in conjunction with hacking.
[32:13.800 --> 32:17.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is a story that illustrates the true definition of hacking.
[32:18.100 --> 32:21.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not something necessarily related to computers or telephones or electronics.
[32:21.880 --> 32:28.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's something that illustrates that it's the human mind finding another solution to a problem.
[32:29.680 --> 32:31.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Twelve-year-old Stephanie...
[32:32.600 --> 32:33.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Boy.
[32:34.680 --> 32:43.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Chaskovich of Greenpoint, Brooklyn, was on a trip to Rome in October 2003 with a religious organization that her family belongs to.
[32:43.960 --> 32:47.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: She was set to meet the Pope but wasn't able to.
[32:47.200 --> 32:58.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a priest who was with this group suggested that the next day she wears a Krakowski, which is the dancing costume worn by girls from Krakow, Poland.
[32:58.760 --> 32:59.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: You've probably seen it.
[32:59.840 --> 33:05.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Essentially, it's a white dress with a black apron and vest on top of it.
[33:05.700 --> 33:08.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: The apron and vest are embroidered with colorful embroidery.
[33:09.080 --> 33:18.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: So the next day, she shows up after missing a chance to see the Pope the first day and notices that there's a dance troupe of girls her own age waiting to see the Pope.
[33:19.260 --> 33:36.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Stephanie, having been tipped off to wear the Krakowski, ducked under a fence and ran a couple of dozen yards to mingle with this group and surreptitiously meet the Pope, complete with photographs, rosary, blessing, the whole bit.
[33:37.140 --> 33:42.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, if that isn't social engineering and hacking of the highest, I don't know what is.
[33:42.780 --> 33:43.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: So they shot her?
[33:45.580 --> 33:47.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, imagine that was the White House, you know.
[33:47.780 --> 33:49.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: You saw what they did to the guy yesterday.
[33:49.400 --> 33:50.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: He was just standing there.
[33:50.560 --> 33:51.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: That was the Capitol, anyway.
[33:51.900 --> 33:52.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Was it the Capitol?
[33:52.520 --> 33:52.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[33:52.860 --> 33:53.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: He said he wanted to talk to Bush.
[33:53.880 --> 33:54.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think...
[33:54.600 --> 33:56.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah, but he didn't know what he did.
[33:56.040 --> 33:56.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: I thought it was the White House.
[33:56.640 --> 33:57.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, it was the Capitol.
[33:57.880 --> 33:58.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I didn't get any...
[33:58.700 --> 34:02.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: I always thought they're more dangerous around the Capitol than the White House, but they're dangerous either way.
[34:02.380 --> 34:05.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, that also shows the difference between government and religion.
[34:05.720 --> 34:09.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, they're a little gentler in religious circles.
[34:09.940 --> 34:19.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, as I'm sure we've all heard by now, they're going to be selecting a new Pope, and they do that with all kinds of bizarre ceremonies and things like that.
[34:19.600 --> 34:32.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: But one of the things that struck me in the story I read about the Cardinals maintaining silence before they start their selection process, Vatican security, this is a paragraph buried deep inside the story.
[34:32.900 --> 34:37.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Vatican security, meanwhile, was preparing the Sistine Chapel for the papal election.
[34:37.720 --> 34:37.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[34:37.900 --> 34:39.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: They have to sweep it for bugs.
[34:39.320 --> 34:48.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Taking undisclosed measures to thwart would-be hackers or electronic eavesdroppers from listening in on the Cardinals' private deliberations and getting early word of who the next Pope might be.
[34:49.080 --> 34:54.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: How in the world are hackers being blamed for listening in on the Pope election, for God's sake?
[34:54.900 --> 34:55.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean...
[34:55.920 --> 34:56.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[34:56.740 --> 34:57.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, fine.
[34:57.280 --> 34:58.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe somebody can bug the Sistine Chapel.
[34:59.120 --> 34:59.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: But hackers?
[35:00.000 --> 35:01.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is what we do?
[35:01.180 --> 35:07.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I feel like it would be the news media, if anyone, who would want to get in, get the inside scoop.
[35:07.480 --> 35:09.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Aren't you all anxious to find out who the new Pope is going to be?
[35:09.960 --> 35:13.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think the hacker community is going to really lose much sleep over having to wait.
[35:14.460 --> 35:16.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's only five days at the most, right?
[35:16.580 --> 35:17.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: The 15th to the 20th?
[35:18.020 --> 35:18.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, it's not five.
[35:18.860 --> 35:19.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: It could take forever.
[35:20.060 --> 35:20.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, it would take for 18th.
[35:20.560 --> 35:20.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry.
[35:20.980 --> 35:22.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, but they start next week.
[35:22.420 --> 35:29.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kills me is how much time do you save even if you know Latin and Italian and put a microphone in there, okay?
[35:30.040 --> 35:32.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, they ballot, all right?
[35:32.160 --> 35:34.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know a couple minutes ahead of time.
[35:34.160 --> 35:36.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: They say, we've just voted for Cardinal whoever.
[35:36.880 --> 35:39.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then 10 minutes later, they come out and they announce it anyway.
[35:39.640 --> 35:40.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: What does this profit you?
[35:41.000 --> 35:42.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, is there any deliberation?
[35:42.360 --> 35:43.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, there's probably deliberation, though.
[35:43.780 --> 35:46.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, in the Sistine Chapel, they're supposed to be silent.
[35:46.780 --> 35:49.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And when the Holy Spirit moves them, they go up and vote.
[35:50.620 --> 35:51.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[35:51.020 --> 35:52.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's all very mysterious.
[35:52.340 --> 35:54.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if it doesn't work out, they get to burn the ballots and start over.
[35:54.880 --> 35:55.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, yeah.
[35:55.580 --> 35:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm waiting for someone to throw the wrong-colored smoke grenade up on the roof.
[36:00.320 --> 36:02.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, see, now that's thinking like a hacker.
[36:02.840 --> 36:04.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's absolutely thinking like a hacker.
[36:04.440 --> 36:05.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, because they...
[36:05.540 --> 36:06.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: All this colored smoke.
[36:07.320 --> 36:07.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who knows?
[36:08.240 --> 36:13.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, Bernie, you found a story this week, I think, that didn't blame hackers for something, and that's a rarity.
[36:14.100 --> 36:16.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, and unfortunately, I don't have it in front of me right now.
[36:16.780 --> 36:17.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it was...
[36:17.940 --> 36:20.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Remind me of what the issue was, and then I can...
[36:20.280 --> 36:23.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, basically, I can say that I think this was...
[36:23.400 --> 36:24.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Identity theft.
[36:24.660 --> 36:25.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, identity theft.
[36:25.680 --> 36:26.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is this India?
[36:26.960 --> 36:28.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was the latest...
[36:29.400 --> 36:34.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Today's story about more identity theft caused by carelessness by corporations.
[36:34.760 --> 36:50.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: In this case, LexisNexis apparently had really insecure computers and several hundred thousand records of people's, you know, sensitive identity information were copied by criminals.
[36:50.700 --> 36:51.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Quote, criminals!
[36:51.740 --> 36:52.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[36:52.140 --> 36:52.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Look at this straight.
[36:52.920 --> 36:53.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Criminals.
[36:53.540 --> 36:58.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this was on an AP story, which was being reported by ABC News.
[36:58.860 --> 37:01.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it was really refreshing to see these people refer...
[37:01.320 --> 37:06.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: These alleged perpetrators described as criminals and not hackers.
[37:06.660 --> 37:07.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you know what, Bernie?
[37:07.460 --> 37:15.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, I would go so far as to describe the people at LexisNexis as criminals, too, for allowing something like this to be available so easily.
[37:15.900 --> 37:22.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: 310,000 people have had their private information just given away to people who have no right whatsoever to have it.
[37:23.140 --> 37:25.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, what do you call people who are that...
[37:25.120 --> 37:29.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're either extremely stupid and should not be running a corporation like this, or they are criminals themselves.
[37:29.680 --> 37:30.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's criminal negligence.
[37:31.200 --> 37:31.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Absolutely.
[37:32.380 --> 37:42.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think this latest thing is actually waking up some senators that a lot of people are really upset about this, and I think the ball is rolling towards some federal legislation.
[37:42.480 --> 38:01.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: So instead of having this patchwork of state legislation, like California, for instance, has a state law that says any company whose information about private individuals has been compromised, they have to notify these people if they know whose information was compromised.
[38:01.040 --> 38:08.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: The company has to notify them and say, hey, your information was compromised, so check your credit records to see that there isn't weird stuff going on on there.
[38:08.920 --> 38:12.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, California is one of the few states where companies have to do this.
[38:12.860 --> 38:24.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the only reason we even heard about this choice point situation, which was all choice points fault, they actually sold this information to people who just lied about who they were without bothering to check them out.
[38:25.620 --> 38:31.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: They wouldn't have ever revealed this information if there wasn't a state law requiring them to notify the victims.
[38:31.320 --> 38:38.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think there should be federal legislation standardizing this across the country so at least people know when their information has been purloined.
[38:39.680 --> 38:49.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, supposedly, LexisNexis is notifying the 310,000 people that their identities may have been stolen, that their information may have been compromised.
[38:49.180 --> 38:58.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, interesting, in this particular news story here that was on CNN, letters were sent on Monday to people who may have been affected by the security breach.
[38:58.460 --> 39:02.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: So check your mailbox, you may have a letter from LexisNexis saying that your identity has been stolen.
[39:03.300 --> 39:12.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: But to date, none of the individuals who were notified that some of their information was accessed last month have experienced any form of identity theft, according to the company.
[39:12.300 --> 39:12.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now...
[39:12.580 --> 39:13.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: How can they tell?
[39:13.380 --> 39:14.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, look at that for a second.
[39:14.800 --> 39:16.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: They sent the letter on Monday.
[39:16.260 --> 39:17.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Today is Wednesday.
[39:17.440 --> 39:23.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the company knows of no instances of the people who they sent letters to complaining yet, according to CNN.
[39:23.660 --> 39:28.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, how easy are we going to make it for them to squirm their way out of this?
[39:28.780 --> 39:32.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Obviously, they can't ask every single one of these 310,000 people.
[39:32.300 --> 39:34.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, they haven't really given them much time to respond, have they?
[39:35.180 --> 39:39.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let us not forget that LexisNexis is in the very business of compromising people's identities.
[39:40.080 --> 39:46.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: But usually, they just do it to rich people and lawyers and others who have access to the full LexisNexis database.
[39:46.840 --> 39:50.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you can go to any law library and get this information.
[39:50.460 --> 39:53.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't get reported because it's the intended use of the product.
[39:53.700 --> 39:54.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's another thing.
[39:54.980 --> 39:57.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: College students have access to LexisNexis in many cases.
[39:57.640 --> 39:58.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they can do this.
[39:58.520 --> 39:59.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why is that?
[39:59.760 --> 40:03.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's two or more sets of LexisNexis.
[40:03.420 --> 40:10.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Most college students have access only to the so-called academic universe, which does not contain people's personal information.
[40:10.620 --> 40:13.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: But law students generally have access to the full deal.
[40:13.580 --> 40:15.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do they call it the academic universe?
[40:15.300 --> 40:20.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you go on the LexisNexis thing that college students have access to, it says academic universe on the top.
[40:20.740 --> 40:20.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God.
[40:21.700 --> 40:23.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, this tells you the story.
[40:23.840 --> 40:25.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Apparently, there's other products.
[40:25.260 --> 40:27.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's owned by Mead Data Central, or it used to be.
[40:28.040 --> 40:36.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Apparently, LexisNexis also offers products and services to other groups of customers, specifically government and law enforcement.
[40:36.760 --> 40:39.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: So perhaps it was these records.
[40:39.460 --> 40:45.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have a lot of different database products that aren't made available to everyone who has access to LexisNexis.
[40:45.500 --> 40:53.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we don't know what body of data was purloined here, but I don't think it was the stuff that law students have access to.
[40:54.320 --> 40:54.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[40:54.720 --> 40:57.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we'll just have to learn more about this.
[40:57.660 --> 40:59.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if anybody has more information, please let us know.
[41:00.000 --> 41:07.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can email us at oth@2600.com for any letters to Off The Hook.
[41:07.540 --> 41:15.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can also write to us here at the radio station, Off The Hook, care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street.
[41:18.340 --> 41:19.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, 1005?
[41:20.060 --> 41:20.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, actually...
[41:20.780 --> 41:22.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, no, you're supposed to do New York, New York.
[41:22.420 --> 41:22.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know what?
[41:22.700 --> 41:28.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: We rehearsed this before the show, Walter, and I'm sorry, but Walter was going to take another part of the address there.
[41:29.640 --> 41:30.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: New York, New York.
[41:30.540 --> 41:30.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: And more.
[41:31.080 --> 41:31.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead.
[41:33.140 --> 41:33.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: 1005.
[41:33.920 --> 41:36.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: You just got to be careful who you hire these days to do things.
[41:37.160 --> 41:37.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[41:37.840 --> 41:42.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[41:42.840 --> 41:48.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: We are sorry, but this program has ended and no further calls are being taken.
[41:48.680 --> 41:49.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for calling.
[41:50.780 --> 41:51.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-oh.
[41:52.280 --> 41:54.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that generated whenever I say the phone number?
[41:54.500 --> 41:55.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, because that's not true.
[41:56.260 --> 41:57.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's definitely not true.
[41:58.800 --> 41:59.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've been hacked.
[41:59.840 --> 42:00.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, maybe we've been hacked.
[42:01.380 --> 42:12.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, the only way to get around that, the only way to defeat the hackers is to dial 212-209-2900 and call in defiance of that announcement because we can't accept that kind of a thing.
[42:13.280 --> 42:13.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Show them.
[42:13.880 --> 42:14.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll show them.
[42:14.820 --> 42:15.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: We absolutely will.
[42:15.580 --> 42:16.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not going to be intimidated like that.
[42:17.760 --> 42:24.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, Bernie, down there in Philadelphia, I understand that 2600 is appearing in some kind of art exhibit.
[42:25.140 --> 42:25.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Have you seen this?
[42:26.180 --> 42:26.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: What?
[42:26.400 --> 42:26.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[42:26.680 --> 42:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I haven't been to it yet, but this is an article.
[42:29.360 --> 42:35.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was eating lunch a couple of days ago and I was looking through the city paper, which is a free weekly here.
[42:35.100 --> 42:35.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pretty good.
[42:35.420 --> 42:42.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there was an article about an art exhibit of zine art.
[42:43.440 --> 42:52.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, zine being short for magazines, the homemade kind of zines from back in the 1970s and 1980s era, before the Internet was popular.
[42:52.200 --> 43:10.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it prominently mentioned 2600, the Hacker Quarterly, and it said there was a 1989 issue of 2600 in this exhibit, complete with staples holding it together.
[43:10.600 --> 43:11.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: What a novel concept.
[43:12.040 --> 43:12.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[43:14.280 --> 43:16.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I have this here from the city paper.
[43:17.800 --> 43:25.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some publications presented as zines later evolved into full-on glossy mags, like the Hacker's Quarterly 2600.
[43:25.440 --> 43:33.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: A 1989 issue, measures about 5 inches by 7 inches, is held together by staples, and mostly contains phone numbers for every central office in New York State.
[43:33.860 --> 43:36.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: This appears at DIY Revolution.
[43:37.240 --> 43:41.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: The opening reception was Thursday, April 7th, but it's running through June 10th.
[43:42.020 --> 43:42.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's free.
[43:42.500 --> 43:45.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's at the Design Center at Philadelphia University.
[43:46.380 --> 43:53.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: 4200 Henry Avenue, and you can get more information at www.designphiladelphia.org.
[43:53.380 --> 43:58.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: How far the magazine has come now that it's no longer 5 by 7 inches or held together with staples.
[43:58.880 --> 44:01.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it is held together by staples, and it's also 5 by 7.
[44:01.760 --> 44:02.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, what?
[44:02.780 --> 44:03.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, can't be.
[44:04.000 --> 44:04.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[44:05.280 --> 44:06.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it certainly is.
[44:06.440 --> 44:12.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, Arseny, you have a question concerning a New York City landmark or a future landmark or something like that that we discovered.
[44:12.620 --> 44:14.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's an apartment building, I guess, in Houston.
[44:14.480 --> 44:14.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Houston?
[44:14.920 --> 44:15.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Houston Street.
[44:15.780 --> 44:16.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right, Houston Street.
[44:16.800 --> 44:20.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it has a statue of someone that looks like Lennon.
[44:20.740 --> 44:23.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we were wondering if anyone knew what that was.
[44:23.580 --> 44:25.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: The building has a big clock on it.
[44:25.780 --> 44:26.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: John Lennon.
[44:27.660 --> 44:28.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: No.
[44:28.440 --> 44:28.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: No?
[44:29.020 --> 44:29.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: V.I.
[44:29.440 --> 44:29.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Lennon.
[44:29.820 --> 44:30.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, that one.
[44:33.040 --> 44:35.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: He's got his arm up to the sky.
[44:35.260 --> 44:36.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, he's looking onward.
[44:36.560 --> 44:36.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[44:36.860 --> 44:37.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's looking onward.
[44:37.440 --> 44:38.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, he looked onward in the Soviet Union.
[44:39.080 --> 44:39.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[44:39.420 --> 44:40.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, is it possible that...
[44:40.460 --> 44:41.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this is a big statue, too.
[44:41.840 --> 44:42.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's like two stories high.
[44:43.040 --> 44:43.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[44:43.200 --> 44:49.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is it possible somebody tore down a statue in the Soviet Union and shipped it over to Houston Street and erected it on top of a high-rise building?
[44:49.120 --> 44:50.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's entirely possible.
[44:50.000 --> 44:51.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: That would be so cool.
[44:51.620 --> 44:51.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[44:52.680 --> 45:02.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's that building, in case anybody wants to know, it's that building on Houston Street that has the huge clocks facing in all directions that never tell the right time, except maybe twice a day.
[45:02.400 --> 45:02.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right?
[45:03.620 --> 45:04.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't understand.
[45:04.380 --> 45:08.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you have a clock that big, shouldn't you do everything possible to make it tell the time?
[45:08.380 --> 45:09.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, the statue of Lennon is great.
[45:09.900 --> 45:10.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: It really is.
[45:10.840 --> 45:16.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: I like looking up at the sky and seeing Lennon up there because I don't expect to see him, but I would like to see the right time, too.
[45:16.640 --> 45:19.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have two explanations, and I know one of them is right.
[45:19.260 --> 45:20.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: The only problem is I don't know which one.
[45:21.480 --> 45:24.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's about how you present things, isn't it?
[45:25.740 --> 45:27.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: See, I don't have to parse things down.
[45:27.880 --> 45:29.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can remember twice as much.
[45:29.740 --> 45:30.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, fine.
[45:30.240 --> 45:32.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: So give us 50% of the accurate truth.
[45:32.600 --> 45:34.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll give you 200% of the truth.
[45:34.520 --> 45:35.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, go ahead.
[45:35.160 --> 45:36.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Only 100% is true, though.
[45:37.200 --> 45:45.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's either the old Daily Worker magazine building, and yes, they converted into apartments and they got a statue from the former Soviet Union.
[45:45.560 --> 45:46.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's a really, really big building.
[45:47.120 --> 45:54.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: In which case, it was apartments built for a left-leaning labor union years ago.
[45:54.800 --> 45:58.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I know one of them is true because I've read both stories in the Times.
[45:59.060 --> 46:02.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It looks like they have street signs up there as well.
[46:02.360 --> 46:02.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[46:02.780 --> 46:05.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, like little arrows and one-way signs and things like that.
[46:05.380 --> 46:05.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's really cool.
[46:06.080 --> 46:07.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's the kind of thing I'd like to see more of.
[46:07.400 --> 46:08.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know I've seen this, but not lately.
[46:08.140 --> 46:09.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not saying I want to see statues of Lennon everywhere.
[46:09.780 --> 46:16.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: What I'm saying is I like seeing people expressing themselves in various ways, and I like seeing statues of all different sorts, and I think it's kind of cool.
[46:17.180 --> 46:20.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And hopefully there aren't right-wing people signing petitions to get it destroyed.
[46:20.560 --> 46:21.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they probably are.
[46:21.960 --> 46:22.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[46:22.500 --> 46:25.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Our phone number, 212-209-2900.
[46:25.000 --> 46:26.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think we've worked out the difficulties.
[46:26.500 --> 46:30.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: And again, if you're at a payphone, you can call us.
[46:31.120 --> 46:42.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Please deposit 9 trillion 999 billion 999 million dollars.
[46:43.700 --> 46:52.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry about that, because that was supposed to play much better, and apparently our computer has caught the WBAI virus, because I've never heard an MP3 play like that before.
[46:52.800 --> 46:54.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's do that one more time.
[46:55.500 --> 46:58.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Please deposit 9 trillion...
[46:58.240 --> 47:00.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, you see, it starts off well.
[47:00.480 --> 47:01.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: It really does.
[47:01.360 --> 47:05.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: What I'm going to try to do is close a bunch of windows here and hopefully get that to play properly.
[47:06.040 --> 47:14.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can also tell you, the site that we're getting these nifty-liver recordings from that sound a lot better than the way they're playing over the air, is artofhacking.com.
[47:14.140 --> 47:15.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's right, artofhacking.com.
[47:15.400 --> 47:20.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can find these files in slash files slash sounds.
[47:20.980 --> 47:23.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, artofhacking.com slash files slash sounds.
[47:23.920 --> 47:25.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: You'll hear all kinds of cool things.
[47:25.660 --> 47:28.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: And let's take some phone calls while I try to fix this mess.
[47:29.240 --> 47:29.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[47:30.000 --> 47:30.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on the air.
[47:32.340 --> 47:33.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead, speak.
[47:36.080 --> 47:37.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well...
[47:37.000 --> 47:37.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hung up on her.
[47:37.900 --> 47:39.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I did not hang up on her.
[47:39.060 --> 47:40.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: First, she hung up on herself.
[47:40.380 --> 47:42.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the fast, busy signal proves that.
[47:42.920 --> 47:43.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[47:43.820 --> 47:44.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[47:44.340 --> 47:44.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on the air.
[47:45.460 --> 47:46.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, how you doing?
[47:46.680 --> 47:47.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, how are you?
[47:47.580 --> 47:48.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry about that.
[47:48.360 --> 47:49.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to ask you guys a quick question.
[47:49.960 --> 47:53.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Has anybody ever heard of free-to-air satellite?
[47:53.780 --> 47:59.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know every once in a while, Emmanuel, you mention your Canadian satellite dish, and I thought that might be the same thing.
[47:59.860 --> 48:00.800]  No, it's not the same thing.
[48:00.800 --> 48:01.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, it's not the same thing.
[48:01.620 --> 48:03.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mike, why don't you explain that while I try to reboot this machine?
[48:04.180 --> 48:04.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[48:04.500 --> 48:12.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Free-to-air is a system that used to be more popular than it is now, in which you can just buy a dish.
[48:12.720 --> 48:18.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the little dish usually, but a more traditional satellite dish.
[48:18.300 --> 48:30.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you can just pick up, without subscribing to any service, you can just pick up broadcasts that are literally free-to-air, which means that anyone can get them for free, if they have the proper equipment.
[48:31.340 --> 48:36.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, because I see them now on the Internet, and sometimes they're about to a 30-inch dish, and I said, gee, that's not too big.
[48:37.060 --> 48:38.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's not too bad.
[48:38.260 --> 48:41.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was just wondering if, you know, if it works, if it's worth it or not.
[48:41.240 --> 48:44.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I have dish network now, but I'm just curious to see if it's worth it or not.
[48:44.820 --> 48:45.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[48:46.260 --> 48:48.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie seems emphatic in that, that it is worth it.
[48:48.740 --> 48:49.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: I agree with him.
[48:49.440 --> 48:50.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it is worth it.
[48:50.540 --> 48:51.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's all worth it.
[48:51.660 --> 48:52.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's an example.
[48:53.400 --> 49:04.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was at a conference of radio and communications enthusiasts a couple years ago, and my friend Tracy Woods was demonstrating a free-to-air system.
[49:04.860 --> 49:06.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I helped him set up the dish on the roof.
[49:06.460 --> 49:12.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It took us about 10 to 15 minutes, and the dish was probably about two and a half feet in diameter.
[49:13.240 --> 49:13.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[49:15.200 --> 49:22.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: In about half an hour, we were watching live television from Iraq.
[49:22.840 --> 49:27.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: This was Iraqi government television broadcasts we were watching.
[49:27.460 --> 49:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: This was March 2, a little over two years ago, just not long before the invasion.
[49:32.760 --> 49:39.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was amazing watching live Iraqi television, you know, the government broadcast, just pick it up for free.
[49:39.400 --> 49:45.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's a lot of other stations and tons of audio programming you can get absolutely free.
[49:45.240 --> 49:46.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to pay DirecTV.
[49:46.860 --> 49:51.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to pay Dish Network to watch dozens of free satellite channels.
[49:51.880 --> 49:54.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of them are not in English, but some of them are.
[49:54.200 --> 49:57.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of Canadian channels you can watch for free.
[49:57.360 --> 50:02.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can spend about $300 for a whole setup, and you never have to pay anything a month.
[50:02.220 --> 50:07.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the lesson you're going to spend a month for, you know, in one year's of subscription with some pay satellite network.
[50:08.000 --> 50:08.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's worth checking out.
[50:09.360 --> 50:10.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm thinking very, very seriously.
[50:11.140 --> 50:12.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Emmanuel, I heard you say you went to Ward-Melville.
[50:13.000 --> 50:13.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that correct?
[50:13.680 --> 50:14.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ward-Melville High School, yes.
[50:14.760 --> 50:15.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And East Setauket, New York.
[50:16.060 --> 50:16.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, me too.
[50:16.680 --> 50:17.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm 83.
[50:17.380 --> 50:17.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: What year did you graduate?
[50:18.160 --> 50:19.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's not get into details here.
[50:20.860 --> 50:23.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just to say a while ago, but thanks for your call.
[50:23.680 --> 50:40.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Also, in response to that, we had some listener mail concerning my aggravation at losing News World International, which is one of those channels that you do get on some satellite systems, pay satellite systems, mostly CBC and things like that.
[50:41.060 --> 50:44.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it was bought by Al Gore, and he's turning it into more of an MTV type of a thing.
[50:45.120 --> 50:55.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: So anyway, this person writes in to say that the best news program on TV is the French telecast, which runs nightly on WNYE TV here in New York at 7 p.m.
[50:56.780 --> 50:59.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then he says something that's completely wrong, I'm fortunate.
[50:59.840 --> 51:02.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: WNYE is the New Jersey public television station.
[51:02.380 --> 51:02.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I'm sorry.
[51:03.020 --> 51:06.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: It belongs to the Board of Education here in New York City, and it runs out of Brooklyn.
[51:06.720 --> 51:13.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: What you're thinking of maybe is WNJN, yeah, and all their various stations.
[51:13.540 --> 51:15.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Channel 50, which is twice 25.
[51:16.200 --> 51:16.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Montclair.
[51:16.520 --> 51:17.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, Montclair.
[51:17.920 --> 51:19.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: And a bunch of others too, but we won't get into that.
[51:20.000 --> 51:26.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyway, Channel 25 comes in on Cablevision, where I live, so I assume it's available throughout the metropolitan area.
[51:26.000 --> 51:31.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is, and it's available in that old-fashioned broadcast television way of getting TV stations.
[51:32.220 --> 51:33.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's from Michael and Warwick.
[51:33.500 --> 51:34.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks very much for that information.
[51:34.800 --> 51:38.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Incidentally, I'm getting a new channel now because I got my cable fix.
[51:38.200 --> 51:41.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now I get something called Eurovision, which is kind of a cool channel.
[51:41.520 --> 51:42.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's all European news.
[51:42.900 --> 51:44.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: They don't have any news anchors.
[51:44.680 --> 51:50.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: They just have these disembodied voices, and they have better international news coverage than I think even BBC sometimes.
[51:51.060 --> 51:53.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's kind of strange, very strange channel.
[51:53.900 --> 51:56.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: You see it when you're traveling in Europe too sometimes in various languages.
[51:57.280 --> 52:02.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they have the time in the upper right-hand corner all the time in New York, Brussels, and Moscow.
[52:02.480 --> 52:06.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't know why those three cities, but that's kind of cool to get that.
[52:06.500 --> 52:09.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you can only get that on cable and not in New York City.
[52:09.700 --> 52:11.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's kind of strange.
[52:13.160 --> 52:14.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you know...
[52:15.960 --> 52:17.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right, all right.
[52:17.120 --> 52:19.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: I tried to fix it, and it will not work.
[52:19.840 --> 52:20.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry.
[52:20.860 --> 52:21.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's take another phone call.
[52:22.300 --> 52:22.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[52:22.860 --> 52:23.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on the air.
[52:24.660 --> 52:25.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello?
[52:25.240 --> 52:25.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, go ahead.
[52:25.960 --> 52:27.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I didn't hang up on you.
[52:27.140 --> 52:28.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: The dog steps on the phone, but anyway...
[52:28.500 --> 52:29.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you got through a second time.
[52:29.700 --> 52:30.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[52:30.240 --> 52:30.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[52:31.680 --> 52:38.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering, I started a new job where they use a hand scanner to, every time you come in, leave, whatever.
[52:38.380 --> 52:44.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering what kind of technology that is, because all I do is put my hand on it and it logs me in.
[52:45.240 --> 52:48.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: It has a flat metal plate that your hand rests on?
[52:49.000 --> 52:49.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: It is.
[52:49.660 --> 52:58.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a metal plate, and there's like two or three prongs that stick up that go in between my thumb and my pointer finger and, I think, my middle finger.
[52:59.120 --> 53:02.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you're getting good practice if you ever end up on probation.
[53:04.020 --> 53:05.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: They use the same technology.
[53:05.800 --> 53:15.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: We believe that it's galvanometric response, the conductivity that your hand has, because that seems to be the only thing that makes sense.
[53:16.040 --> 53:30.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: There seems to be no optical element to it, and it's not sniffing the air around your hand, it's not measuring anything, no lasers scan your hand, it works in the dark, in various light conditions.
[53:31.460 --> 53:33.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we're very sure it's galvanometric response.
[53:34.000 --> 53:34.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, do you agree with this?
[53:34.960 --> 53:36.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a way to test that theory.
[53:36.940 --> 53:37.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Which is?
[53:37.840 --> 53:56.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is, if it truly is a galvanic in-response system, you could, while you have your, just before you place your hand on it, if you take your other hand and hold someone else's hand, preferably if your hands are moist, contacting this other person, then you put your hand on the sensor.
[53:57.300 --> 54:04.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: If it passes you through, then it's not galvanic skin response, because it would completely throw it off if you were holding someone else's hand at the same time.
[54:04.380 --> 54:12.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, I'm willing to experiment, but I don't think I could really do that when I report to the Department of Probation, because...
[54:12.380 --> 54:13.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You wouldn't have to hold someone else's hand.
[54:14.080 --> 54:15.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: You could be holding some other part of their body.
[54:15.800 --> 54:20.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, Bertie, Bertie, we're getting into even worse possibilities up at the probation office.
[54:21.280 --> 54:22.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: As long as it's moist.
[54:23.340 --> 54:24.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're getting way worse.
[54:25.620 --> 54:27.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, let's move on.
[54:27.180 --> 54:28.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks for your question there.
[54:29.940 --> 54:32.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we, yeah, we're here to answer your questions.
[54:32.200 --> 54:32.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[54:33.340 --> 54:34.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Emmanuel, good evening.
[54:34.300 --> 54:35.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Bob from Brooklyn.
[54:35.360 --> 54:35.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you?
[54:35.860 --> 54:36.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you doing?
[54:36.860 --> 54:37.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fine.
[54:37.240 --> 54:48.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I live in Sheepshead Bay, and I parked, last Sunday, a week ago, I parked my car on a side street, actually on East 21st Street, in Sheepshead Bay, where I normally park, one of the streets I normally park on.
[54:48.520 --> 54:57.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Tuesday night, I went over to get it, and I see there are very few cars on the block, and they're preparing the block for repaving.
[54:57.960 --> 54:59.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: And my car was not on the block.
[55:01.120 --> 55:02.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, what do I do?
[55:02.220 --> 55:03.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: The first thing I do is I call 3-1-1.
[55:04.660 --> 55:06.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they are completely useless.
[55:07.060 --> 55:09.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: They say, well, did your car have any outstanding...
[55:09.420 --> 55:14.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: I told them exactly what I told you, and they said, does your car have any outstanding summonses or tickets?
[55:14.400 --> 55:15.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, no.
[55:15.680 --> 55:23.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: They said, well, we're going to put you through the automated system, type in your license plate number, and, you know, maybe we'll find out where your car is that way.
[55:23.600 --> 55:24.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, they do that.
[55:24.440 --> 55:25.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have to type in the license plate.
[55:26.520 --> 55:30.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: It takes a long time to do it, because you have to press 1 for A, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[55:31.360 --> 55:35.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Long story short, that system says they don't have the car.
[55:35.020 --> 55:41.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, 3-1-1 had no idea where my car was or who to tell me to call.
[55:41.620 --> 55:42.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: I called.
[55:42.600 --> 55:43.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: They said, maybe it was stolen.
[55:44.140 --> 55:46.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Call 9-1-1, which was a total joke.
[55:47.500 --> 55:49.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: 9-1-1 said, oh, you shouldn't be calling me for this.
[55:49.980 --> 55:53.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, something happened with the paving.
[55:53.520 --> 55:54.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know what to tell you.
[55:54.420 --> 55:55.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Call your local precinct.
[55:55.800 --> 55:57.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: I called the local precinct.
[55:57.480 --> 56:01.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Likewise, they said, we have no idea.
[56:01.300 --> 56:02.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: There are private contractors.
[56:02.480 --> 56:04.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know where your car is at all.
[56:05.020 --> 56:06.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: None of these people could help me.
[56:07.180 --> 56:16.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: They said, the best thing to do is go there tomorrow, if the trucks are still there, and ask them what they did with you, where your car is.
[56:16.760 --> 56:21.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Long story short, it's not short anymore, I found my car three blocks away.
[56:22.140 --> 56:23.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: They picked it up and they moved it.
[56:24.520 --> 56:26.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's what I thought they might have done.
[56:26.500 --> 56:27.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's like the movie companies.
[56:27.700 --> 56:32.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: They put up these signs all over the city when they're filming Law & Order or whatever they're filming this week.
[56:32.760 --> 56:40.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they say, if you look at it carefully, they say your car will be relocated to the nearest parking spot if you're still parked here by a certain time.
[56:40.560 --> 56:40.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[56:40.900 --> 56:42.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I had to go walk around.
[56:42.940 --> 56:43.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, I didn't have my car.
[56:43.860 --> 56:47.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I had to walk around until I found my car.
[56:48.660 --> 56:49.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: No one knew.
[56:49.760 --> 56:51.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't leave any notes by the truck.
[56:51.420 --> 56:52.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: The trucks were still there.
[56:52.300 --> 56:54.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: They were preparing to pay the next day.
[56:54.500 --> 56:55.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: No note.
[56:55.660 --> 57:00.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: They could have easily just left a sign saying, oh, by the way, your car is at blah, blah, blah.
[57:01.060 --> 57:01.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: No indication.
[57:01.800 --> 57:02.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: No nothing.
[57:02.440 --> 57:03.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was just one big mystery.
[57:03.860 --> 57:05.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: And no one knew how to help me.
[57:06.060 --> 57:09.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, this shows the problem with American jurisprudence.
[57:09.440 --> 57:11.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're supposed to know the laws.
[57:11.200 --> 57:13.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in this case, you're supposed to know the rules.
[57:13.300 --> 57:19.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And one of the rules is when they pave, they tow the cars to the nearest available parking space a couple blocks away.
[57:19.300 --> 57:21.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: What if there isn't a parking space a couple blocks away?
[57:21.180 --> 57:21.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: Where do they tow it then?
[57:22.300 --> 57:22.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Further.
[57:23.520 --> 57:24.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: What, Nassau County?
[57:24.660 --> 57:25.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Where are they going to put it?
[57:25.640 --> 57:27.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: They'll find a spot sooner or later.
[57:27.480 --> 57:32.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: I could swear this happened to me once where I left my car where they were filming some movie and I just didn't feel like moving it.
[57:32.480 --> 57:37.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think they took my car and they brought it back because it seemed to be in a different part of the block when I actually retrieved it.
[57:37.720 --> 57:39.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it was like the only car in that street.
[57:39.240 --> 57:44.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's possible that it was good for the background, but they were filming right where your car was and it wasn't good for the foreground.
[57:45.140 --> 57:49.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not sure if anybody has experience with this, if they actually do bring it back after they're done.
[57:49.480 --> 57:50.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they didn't in your case.
[57:52.300 --> 57:54.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I was happy to find it.
[57:54.680 --> 57:56.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: They weren't inside the car.
[57:56.300 --> 57:58.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: They must have picked it up just on the front and towed it.
[57:58.800 --> 58:01.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a front-wheel drive car, so the rear wheel's been free.
[58:02.540 --> 58:03.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: They must have just dropped it off.
[58:04.380 --> 58:05.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, they dropped it off.
[58:05.580 --> 58:10.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: There were signs they were going to repave the street where they dropped it off, which said no parking.
[58:11.000 --> 58:18.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: There were those temporary signs that said no parking Wednesday, which means that the next day they would have had to have moved it again if I hadn't gone to pick it up.
[58:18.800 --> 58:23.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's no alternate parking in my neighborhood, so I could leave my car in one spot for weeks at a time.
[58:23.540 --> 58:25.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that seems to be the limit, weeks at a time.
[58:25.640 --> 58:28.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: But after that, they're going to play hide-and-seek with your car.
[58:28.700 --> 58:29.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Listen, we're out of time.
[58:29.400 --> 58:33.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'd like to get into this further, but we have to go now.
[58:33.620 --> 58:35.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I want to thank everybody for calling in.
[58:36.240 --> 58:38.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Reminder, we'll be at the Trenton Computer Festival.
[58:39.000 --> 58:40.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is it a festival or fair, Bernie?
[58:41.820 --> 58:42.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Festival.
[58:42.380 --> 58:42.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a festival.
[58:42.960 --> 58:43.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: I never get that right.
[58:43.600 --> 58:45.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we're speaking at 1225.
[58:45.740 --> 58:51.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: What we're doing is a special edition of Off The Hook down there at Trenton on Saturday, 1225 p.m.
[58:51.220 --> 58:52.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll try very hard to be festive.
[58:53.240 --> 58:54.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll try to be as festive as possible.
[58:55.380 --> 58:58.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this edition of Off The Hook will not be aired, at least not that I'm aware of.
[58:59.000 --> 59:00.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: So that's especially special.
[59:02.100 --> 59:04.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: So we'll see you down there, and we'll see you back here next week.
[59:05.120 --> 59:09.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: And yes, we're playing the same song that we played last week because so many people wanted to hear it again.
[59:09.340 --> 59:11.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's David Bowie, I'm Afraid of Americans.
[59:11.220 --> 59:15.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: And no, the line that you think it says is not saying what it really is saying.
[59:16.320 --> 59:17.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or something like that.
[59:18.220 --> 59:19.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: See you next week.
[59:57.920 --> 59:58.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:00.060 --> 01:00:01.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:03.080 --> 01:00:04.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:06.040 --> 01:00:07.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:09.060 --> 01:00:10.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:11.840]  I'm a big fan.
[01:00:12.100 --> 01:00:13.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:13.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:15.080 --> 01:00:16.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:16.560 --> 01:00:16.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:17.060 --> 01:00:17.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a big fan.
[01:00:17.560 --> 01:00:18.060]  I'm a big fan.