[00:09.340 --> 00:12.200] [SPEAKER_00]: You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
[00:12.200 --> 00:19.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Our newscast is produced at Pacifica Station's WBAI in New York, KPFA in Berkeley, and KPFK in Los Angeles.
[00:19.380 --> 00:22.920] [SPEAKER_00]: The newscast is produced by Monica Lopez and Simba Russo.
[00:23.120 --> 00:25.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Our headlines editor is Leanne Caldwell.
[00:25.380 --> 00:27.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Mitch Jezerich is our Washington editor.
[00:27.500 --> 00:33.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Our technical production team is Jade Padgett-Seekins, Pauline Bartolone, McMillan, and Eric Kline.
[00:33.420 --> 00:36.080] [SPEAKER_00]: In Los Angeles, I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:41.980 --> 00:44.640] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:45.320 --> 00:50.620] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just about 7 o'clock, and that means it's time once again for Off The Hook.
[01:53.640 --> 01:56.080] [SPEAKER_06]: And a very good evening to hear by the program is Off The Hook.
[01:56.160 --> 02:02.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour or so, and we have a studio filled with people, as usual.
[02:03.640 --> 02:09.240] [SPEAKER_06]: And, well, you know, this is quite an eventful day, I guess, in the history of New York in a couple of ways.
[02:09.240 --> 02:11.620] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the day that we officially didn't get the Olympics.
[02:11.960 --> 02:12.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Yay!
[02:13.540 --> 02:15.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I sort of knew this was going to happen.
[02:15.960 --> 02:17.860] [SPEAKER_06]: I think everybody in the city kind of knew this was going to happen.
[02:18.300 --> 02:20.100] [SPEAKER_06]: It's ill-conceived from the start.
[02:21.100 --> 02:22.260] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we might have had a chance.
[02:22.340 --> 02:27.120] [SPEAKER_06]: We might have had a chance of getting to the Olympics if that whole Westside Stadium fiasco hadn't happened.
[02:27.120 --> 02:29.480] [SPEAKER_06]: But it did, so we have Mayor Bloomberg to thank for that.
[02:30.260 --> 02:32.500] [SPEAKER_06]: I plan to send him a letter of thanks personally.
[02:32.500 --> 02:38.000] [SPEAKER_06]: If he had done it sensibly and proposed the Queen's site from the start, you know, we very well could be singing a different tune tonight.
[02:38.000 --> 02:41.360] [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you, Mayor Bloomberg, for doing your best to keep the Olympics out of New York.
[02:41.680 --> 02:47.000] [SPEAKER_11]: If I might insert a personal story about the amazing party I went to last night.
[02:47.020 --> 02:47.480] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yes, the party.
[02:47.620 --> 02:48.260] [SPEAKER_06]: We both went there.
[02:48.280 --> 02:52.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, we were driving along, and we remembered that there was supposed to be a big party at Rockefeller Center.
[02:52.840 --> 02:53.460] [SPEAKER_11]: A block party.
[02:53.560 --> 03:01.040] [SPEAKER_06]: They were talking about how everybody was just spontaneously going out onto the streets and celebrating in a typical New York style.
[03:01.220 --> 03:03.140] [SPEAKER_06]: So, yes, we were driving last night.
[03:03.140 --> 03:04.080] [SPEAKER_11]: We stopped.
[03:04.380 --> 03:12.680] [SPEAKER_11]: We went to Rockefeller Plaza, and there was a big screen set up, you know, where they were showing the proceedings going on.
[03:12.780 --> 03:16.680] [SPEAKER_11]: And there were maybe 15, 20 people watching.
[03:16.680 --> 03:17.840] [SPEAKER_06]: I'd say closer to 15.
[03:18.020 --> 03:19.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, watching the screen.
[03:19.180 --> 03:22.960] [SPEAKER_11]: More people showed up as it started to rain because they wanted to hide under the overhang.
[03:22.960 --> 03:23.600] [SPEAKER_06]: That's not really fair.
[03:23.680 --> 03:24.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Those were passers-by.
[03:24.900 --> 03:32.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Those were people that just wanted to duck into an overhang, and the old RCA building has that overhang, so they ran in there.
[03:32.020 --> 03:34.380] [SPEAKER_11]: There were definitely more volunteers there than people, I'd say.
[03:34.580 --> 03:36.760] [SPEAKER_11]: But what I found amusing was...
[03:36.760 --> 03:37.300] [SPEAKER_11]: Wait, wait, wait.
[03:37.460 --> 03:38.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Volunteers aren't people?
[03:40.620 --> 03:45.240] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we ended up waiting there for a while, maybe 20 minutes, because it was raining so badly.
[03:45.380 --> 03:45.940] [SPEAKER_11]: It started pouring.
[03:46.040 --> 03:47.140] [SPEAKER_06]: I took that as a sign.
[03:47.280 --> 03:53.680] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, as soon as we went there, the heavens opened up, and I think at the time people were watching the presentation of Moscow, I believe.
[03:53.900 --> 03:56.920] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, there were about, you know, maybe three people watching that on the big screen.
[03:57.040 --> 03:59.520] [SPEAKER_06]: But if you listen to it, we listen to the radio on the way out.
[03:59.520 --> 04:01.320] [SPEAKER_06]: What did we hear on the news radio?
[04:02.020 --> 04:02.280] [SPEAKER_11]: Amazing.
[04:02.480 --> 04:03.960] [SPEAKER_11]: It was... we were driving away.
[04:04.120 --> 04:04.620] [SPEAKER_11]: We just left.
[04:04.740 --> 04:09.080] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, there'd been all these people just, like, hiding from the rain, maybe 20 people, 15, 20 people.
[04:09.400 --> 04:13.920] [SPEAKER_11]: And we're driving, and they started talking about this party on the radio, on CBS.
[04:14.480 --> 04:17.320] [SPEAKER_11]: And they went to a report from Rockefeller Center.
[04:17.440 --> 04:21.040] [SPEAKER_11]: And I guess they'd made the report hours before, or they were just flat out lying.
[04:21.140 --> 04:28.560] [SPEAKER_11]: Because you hear all this noise, and this guy's talking about how there's throngs of people, you know, waiting anxiously, and that they'll be here all night long.
[04:28.560 --> 04:29.140] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, sure.
[04:29.940 --> 04:31.000] [SPEAKER_06]: There was nobody there.
[04:31.100 --> 04:31.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[04:31.180 --> 04:32.280] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah, okay, 15 people.
[04:32.360 --> 04:32.620] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[04:32.700 --> 04:33.640] [SPEAKER_06]: That still counts as nobody.
[04:34.200 --> 04:35.660] [SPEAKER_06]: It was not exactly enthusiastic.
[04:35.920 --> 04:38.600] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, the rain, okay, it wasn't raining when we got there.
[04:38.700 --> 04:40.000] [SPEAKER_06]: It started raining as soon as we got there.
[04:40.020 --> 04:42.240] [SPEAKER_06]: So there weren't people there even before it started to rain.
[04:42.600 --> 04:46.340] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, when you say block party, I assume there's going to be food.
[04:46.340 --> 04:48.260] [SPEAKER_06]: I assume I'm going to be taken care of in some way.
[04:48.380 --> 04:50.240] [SPEAKER_06]: There was nothing there, nothing at all.
[04:50.720 --> 04:52.360] [SPEAKER_06]: And they wouldn't even let you use the bathroom.
[04:52.620 --> 04:52.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[04:52.920 --> 04:53.920] [SPEAKER_06]: How do you like that?
[04:54.820 --> 04:55.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Olympics.
[04:55.500 --> 04:56.400] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think so.
[04:57.740 --> 04:58.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[04:58.160 --> 05:05.000] [SPEAKER_06]: And also today is a momentous day because the reporter for the New York Times has been officially sent to prison for not revealing her sources.
[05:05.640 --> 05:07.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Judith Miller is now in prison.
[05:07.740 --> 05:11.040] [SPEAKER_06]: I just think that's a very sad day for journalists all over the place when something like that can happen.
[05:11.200 --> 05:11.920] [SPEAKER_06]: It's happened before.
[05:12.000 --> 05:14.880] [SPEAKER_06]: It happened, I think, in the 1970s, also to the New York Times.
[05:14.880 --> 05:22.700] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's just unbelievable to me that reporters face this kind of thing of not revealing your source, thereby you go to prison.
[05:22.880 --> 05:27.100] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a bizarre story and no doubt one we won't be hearing the last of.
[05:27.260 --> 05:31.400] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's impressive that she chose going to prison over actually revealing the source.
[05:31.440 --> 05:33.500] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what's amazing to me is that she didn't even print the story.
[05:33.640 --> 05:35.140] [SPEAKER_06]: All she did was research the story.
[05:35.520 --> 05:36.660] [SPEAKER_06]: She just researched it.
[05:36.720 --> 05:41.120] [SPEAKER_06]: And they found out that she researched it and said, well, you must tell us what you learned.
[05:41.800 --> 05:44.280] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, any reporter knows you don't do that.
[05:44.420 --> 05:48.620] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think the prosecutor is saying nobody is entitled to confidentiality in this country.
[05:48.780 --> 05:54.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody can make that promise that, you know, I guess no doctors, no lawyers, nobody.
[05:54.880 --> 05:58.340] [SPEAKER_06]: Everything must be open and scrutinized by the authorities.
[05:59.020 --> 06:01.300] [SPEAKER_06]: I would like to see this prosecutor's notes, please.
[06:01.560 --> 06:05.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know, if you're going to feel like that, okay, let's see Bush's notes.
[06:05.220 --> 06:08.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see all the stuff leading up to the war, which I believe...
[06:08.140 --> 06:09.360] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think Bush takes notes.
[06:09.360 --> 06:10.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they have written for him.
[06:11.060 --> 06:11.880] [SPEAKER_06]: You hear he fell down today.
[06:12.600 --> 06:13.180] [SPEAKER_06]: How sad.
[06:13.400 --> 06:14.640] [SPEAKER_06]: This really is a momentous day.
[06:14.720 --> 06:15.500] [SPEAKER_06]: Bush fell down.
[06:15.620 --> 06:17.020] [SPEAKER_06]: He was, again, riding the bicycle.
[06:17.260 --> 06:20.260] [SPEAKER_07]: Whoa, he was attacking a Scottish policeman.
[06:20.520 --> 06:22.000] [SPEAKER_06]: What do you mean he was attacking a Scottish policeman?
[06:22.000 --> 06:23.180] [SPEAKER_06]: He ran into a Scottish policeman.
[06:23.760 --> 06:25.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he sent him to the hospital, from what I heard.
[06:25.980 --> 06:26.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's good.
[06:27.080 --> 06:28.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so his aim is getting better.
[06:28.880 --> 06:31.900] [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, every time he's on a bicycle, something bad happens.
[06:32.500 --> 06:33.240] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, only to the policeman.
[06:33.240 --> 06:33.880] [SPEAKER_08]: There's another irony.
[06:34.100 --> 06:34.620] [SPEAKER_06]: What's that, Bernie?
[06:35.100 --> 06:38.540] [SPEAKER_08]: There's another irony in this whole case with the reporters being jailed.
[06:39.440 --> 06:51.380] [SPEAKER_08]: The Time Warner, or the reporter for Time magazine, the magazine decided, the editor-in-chief decided, okay, we'll turn over all the information to the prosecutor.
[06:51.380 --> 07:02.360] [SPEAKER_08]: And the prosecutor still refused to let the reporter off the hook and said, you still have to testify for the grand jury or we're going to lock you in jail.
[07:02.600 --> 07:11.180] [SPEAKER_08]: Fortunately for the reporter, the source said, okay, I'll lift my request that you keep my name confidential.
[07:11.180 --> 07:13.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And then the reporter was able to do that.
[07:13.900 --> 07:18.540] [SPEAKER_08]: But still, it just shows how unreasonable this prosecutor seems to be.
[07:19.080 --> 07:21.580] [SPEAKER_06]: And, yeah, he wants everyone to submit, obviously.
[07:21.760 --> 07:30.200] [SPEAKER_06]: But the bigger question is, what about Robert Novak, the guy who originally leaked the information, the CIA agent's name, who is the wife of a U.S.
[07:30.280 --> 07:30.600] [SPEAKER_06]: ambassador?
[07:30.600 --> 07:41.680] [SPEAKER_06]: It's widely believed the name was leaked by a Bush administration official in retaliation for an op-ed piece that that ambassador wrote that was critical of Bush.
[07:41.880 --> 07:42.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, you know...
[07:42.280 --> 07:47.440] [SPEAKER_08]: According to Novak, it was a high-ranking White House staffer.
[07:47.920 --> 07:50.300] [SPEAKER_06]: And Karl Rove's name has come up a number of times.
[07:50.600 --> 07:55.660] [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, I'm no fan of keeping him out of danger by any means.
[07:56.500 --> 07:59.620] [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, the journalistic integrity trumps all that.
[07:59.740 --> 08:03.320] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's something you really have to, you know, to take very seriously.
[08:03.480 --> 08:06.360] [SPEAKER_06]: So, big steps taken today as far as that kind of thing.
[08:06.440 --> 08:13.420] [SPEAKER_06]: And, of course, you know, it affects us on a lower scale in the things we do here on the radio, here on the magazine.
[08:13.420 --> 08:18.900] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we're always protecting sources one way or another, always being threatened to reveal who told us this.
[08:19.540 --> 08:22.020] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, you better believe it's going to have a trickle-down effect.
[08:22.380 --> 08:25.400] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you mentioned something really interesting last week, which we didn't get into.
[08:25.540 --> 08:38.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And that is, with, for instance, 2600, which publishes a lot of information it gets confidentially and in a lot of ways, online and magazine and on the radio, that sort of thing, even in movies.
[08:39.140 --> 08:53.700] [SPEAKER_08]: You mentioned it doesn't really affect 2600 as much, but it's interesting in why it doesn't affect 2600 as much as it might for stories being covered by, say, the New York Times or Time magazine or something like that.
[08:53.880 --> 09:02.240] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's interesting because a lot of stuff that 2600 reports, or we report on the radio here, is independently verifiable as factual.
[09:02.240 --> 09:18.760] [SPEAKER_08]: Whereas, if it's something like this case, where, you know, it's really basically someone being quoted as to whether they said it or not, that's not something that's necessarily as verifiable as a technical piece of information that you could actually go out and try it yourself and say,
[09:18.860 --> 09:19.980] [SPEAKER_08]: yep, this works.
[09:20.300 --> 09:27.580] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's an interesting type of reporting that we do that differs from most mainstream reporting in that area.
[09:28.340 --> 09:28.940] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[09:29.060 --> 09:29.380] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[09:29.520 --> 09:35.040] [SPEAKER_06]: And they want to get the people behind the revelation as much as the people who make the quotes.
[09:35.940 --> 09:40.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Because, you know, they lose that sense of control when we tell them, what was that?
[09:40.960 --> 09:42.000] [SPEAKER_06]: Who made that sound?
[09:42.340 --> 09:42.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Computer.
[09:42.880 --> 09:43.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Was that you, Bernie?
[09:44.080 --> 09:44.560] [SPEAKER_02]: Not me.
[09:46.320 --> 09:47.840] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that sound offends me.
[09:48.300 --> 09:49.560] [SPEAKER_06]: It just came out of nowhere.
[09:50.120 --> 09:51.040] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that computer there?
[09:51.380 --> 09:52.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Must have been.
[09:52.440 --> 09:54.500] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the only one patched into the board.
[09:54.980 --> 09:56.220] [SPEAKER_06]: Are you guys playing some kind of joke?
[09:56.220 --> 09:58.040] [SPEAKER_06]: You have a little Windows computer somewhere?
[09:58.340 --> 09:58.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[09:59.060 --> 09:59.460] [SPEAKER_06]: God, no.
[09:59.580 --> 10:00.940] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, all right.
[10:00.980 --> 10:01.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's hope that doesn't happen again.
[10:02.560 --> 10:05.620] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, they want to, you know, reveal...
[10:06.200 --> 10:09.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, when we reveal things, they want us to pay the penalty, obviously.
[10:10.000 --> 10:11.740] [SPEAKER_06]: They want the person who told us to pay the penalty.
[10:11.880 --> 10:13.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Some insider information.
[10:14.340 --> 10:21.700] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, what is today's action going to do to the person who says, yes, I have a secret and I want to tell this reporter.
[10:21.700 --> 10:22.840] [SPEAKER_06]: I want to tell this magazine.
[10:23.000 --> 10:24.140] [SPEAKER_06]: I want to tell this radio station.
[10:24.140 --> 10:30.500] [SPEAKER_06]: And knowing that we can be in prison for refusing to tell who that person is.
[10:30.640 --> 10:31.580] [SPEAKER_06]: It's very scary.
[10:31.920 --> 10:35.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Scary for us, too, because it means a lot of us will be going to prison.
[10:36.760 --> 10:37.220] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[10:37.340 --> 10:44.280] [SPEAKER_06]: So speaking of those little technical things where we show people what works and what doesn't work, do we have any this week?
[10:44.440 --> 10:45.820] [SPEAKER_06]: Any interesting revelations?
[10:46.700 --> 10:47.160] [SPEAKER_06]: No?
[10:47.720 --> 10:50.320] [SPEAKER_07]: I've got something minor, but it's a little interesting.
[10:51.040 --> 10:52.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Something you found yourself?
[10:52.700 --> 10:56.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, no, actually, a newspaper beat us to it, but I thought it was kind of ironic.
[10:56.520 --> 10:57.400] [SPEAKER_06]: You found a newspaper, though.
[10:57.640 --> 10:57.900] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[10:58.000 --> 11:03.040] [SPEAKER_07]: I find newspapers, or I buy them, or people give them to me.
[11:03.100 --> 11:03.640] [SPEAKER_07]: It depends.
[11:03.780 --> 11:04.140] [SPEAKER_05]: They want to be anonymous.
[11:04.140 --> 11:06.420] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's been one of your skills, so tell us what the story is.
[11:06.540 --> 11:13.220] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we're interested in radios, and among other radios that we're interested in are the police radios.
[11:13.220 --> 11:13.660] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[11:13.780 --> 11:14.920] [SPEAKER_05]: We're talking about that last week, in fact.
[11:15.100 --> 11:21.120] [SPEAKER_07]: It turns out that, ironically, Law & Order, the television station, had to pay a...
[11:21.120 --> 11:21.400] [SPEAKER_07]: Station?
[11:21.880 --> 11:24.380] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry, the television series, had to pay a fine...
[11:24.380 --> 11:25.080] [SPEAKER_07]: Scared me for a second.
[11:25.240 --> 11:25.460] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry.
[11:26.340 --> 11:30.500] [SPEAKER_07]: Had to pay a fine to the FCC for screwing up police radios in New York City.
[11:30.620 --> 11:36.340] [SPEAKER_07]: They were using the same frequency to communicate on location as the NYPD.
[11:36.700 --> 11:37.840] [SPEAKER_06]: So when I was...
[11:37.840 --> 11:41.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Like movie filming companies, they used the two-way radios all the time, and they used police frequencies?
[11:42.080 --> 11:42.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.
[11:42.420 --> 11:43.180] [SPEAKER_06]: How'd they manage that?
[11:43.520 --> 11:44.360] [SPEAKER_07]: No one knows.
[11:44.680 --> 11:49.300] [SPEAKER_07]: This is not a highly technical article, but apparently they did this sporadically for some time.
[11:49.780 --> 11:53.520] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe they forgot to replace the radios in the mock police car.
[11:54.200 --> 11:56.660] [SPEAKER_11]: They just bought police cars or rented them, and then...
[11:56.660 --> 11:58.320] [SPEAKER_06]: How can something like that happen?
[11:58.400 --> 12:02.180] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I would think they would go after the company that rented it to them, not the TV show itself.
[12:02.340 --> 12:05.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, apparently, it was the production company for the TV show.
[12:05.960 --> 12:06.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, Bernie?
[12:07.860 --> 12:13.140] [SPEAKER_08]: Typically, these production companies, they rent or lease these radios, and they don't even know what frequency they're on.
[12:13.240 --> 12:15.300] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just like channel one, channel two, channel three.
[12:15.920 --> 12:17.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, then they just talk to each other.
[12:17.880 --> 12:18.580] [SPEAKER_08]: They don't really care.
[12:18.580 --> 12:24.660] [SPEAKER_08]: But there are specific frequencies that are allocated by the FCC for specific services.
[12:24.660 --> 12:30.240] [SPEAKER_08]: One of them is for a movie set-type commercial talking back and forth.
[12:30.380 --> 12:37.280] [SPEAKER_08]: And then there's a whole different ban set aside for public service frequencies, or several bans that are set aside for public service frequencies, like police.
[12:37.460 --> 12:38.920] [SPEAKER_08]: So somebody really screwed up.
[12:39.300 --> 12:48.540] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, I would imagine that if there's some liability involved, it's in the part of the people who rented the radios to the production company.
[12:48.860 --> 12:49.240] [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[12:49.500 --> 12:52.700] [SPEAKER_07]: Universal ended up paying $10,000 fine to the FCC.
[12:52.700 --> 12:54.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's because they're stupid, you know.
[12:54.420 --> 12:59.920] [SPEAKER_06]: They don't know how to fight these things, and they just have, you know, money pouring out of them anyway, so it's probably cheaper for them to do it that way.
[13:00.460 --> 13:05.820] [SPEAKER_09]: I think real quick, we should just clarify what we were talking about last week about the scanners in the car.
[13:06.780 --> 13:14.760] [SPEAKER_09]: We looked it up after the show, and portably, it doesn't seem that there are any laws affecting that, except if you're mobile in a car.
[13:15.440 --> 13:19.100] [SPEAKER_09]: If you don't have an amateur radio license, you're not permitted to listen to police frequencies.
[13:20.800 --> 13:22.600] [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't have... if you're in a car.
[13:23.100 --> 13:24.020] [SPEAKER_09]: If you're in a car, right.
[13:24.020 --> 13:24.760] [SPEAKER_06]: If you're mobile in a car.
[13:24.900 --> 13:26.240] [SPEAKER_06]: You could be sitting in a parked car, I think.
[13:26.440 --> 13:27.080] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, probably.
[13:27.300 --> 13:36.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but if you're driving around listening to police frequencies and you don't have a ham license, and I'm not even sure that that will always get you out of it, you know, with every cop.
[13:36.320 --> 13:39.660] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the cops probably have to know the law, and most of them most likely don't.
[13:39.800 --> 13:43.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let's listen to what this listener had to say, Joe from Fargo, North Dakota.
[13:43.360 --> 13:47.360] [SPEAKER_06]: In last week's show, you discussed that scanning police bans while being mobile is illegal.
[13:47.680 --> 13:48.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, we debated it.
[13:49.240 --> 13:54.540] [SPEAKER_06]: This is, in fact, illegal by nearly every state law if you are in a vehicle.
[13:54.660 --> 14:02.200] [SPEAKER_06]: But, and it's a big but, if you are an amateur radio licensee and operator and your ham radio is capable of reaching these frequencies, you are protected by the FCC.
[14:02.560 --> 14:05.140] [SPEAKER_06]: You can listen to but not transmit on these frequencies.
[14:05.380 --> 14:12.280] [SPEAKER_06]: I presented my FCC license on two occasions when I had been pulled over and asked about the police chatter blaring for my radio.
[14:12.500 --> 14:16.480] [SPEAKER_06]: They invariably asked dispatch about the license and have allowed the radio to pass.
[14:16.900 --> 14:22.540] [SPEAKER_06]: A great site that you may already know about, but for the sake of the listeners, is www.cityfreq.com.
[14:22.540 --> 14:30.760] [SPEAKER_06]: That's spelled C-I-T-Y-F-R-E-Q dot com, where several city operating frequencies are archived along with other business band frequencies as well.
[14:30.840 --> 14:31.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks, Joe, for that letter.
[14:32.220 --> 14:33.500] [SPEAKER_08]: It really doesn't matter, though.
[14:33.820 --> 14:39.860] [SPEAKER_08]: Just for the sake of full disclosure here, it really depends on the local municipality.
[14:39.860 --> 14:41.920] [SPEAKER_08]: In many cases, these are not state laws.
[14:42.100 --> 14:46.420] [SPEAKER_08]: These are municipal laws, like Philadelphia, City of Philadelphia, City of New York.
[14:46.580 --> 14:49.280] [SPEAKER_08]: They have their own statutes on this.
[14:49.440 --> 14:49.880] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[14:50.140 --> 14:50.820] [SPEAKER_06]: Hold on a second.
[14:51.080 --> 14:52.200] [SPEAKER_06]: That came over the board.
[14:52.440 --> 14:53.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Is it over here?
[14:53.640 --> 14:54.580] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to turn this down.
[14:54.680 --> 14:54.900] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[14:54.940 --> 14:55.340] [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[14:56.880 --> 15:07.260] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you really need to find out if there's an exception for licensed amateur ham radio operators in the municipal statute, because if there isn't, you're not off the hook.
[15:08.500 --> 15:09.300] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, we are.
[15:09.920 --> 15:10.940] [SPEAKER_08]: No pun intended.
[15:11.380 --> 15:13.460] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you really have to look at the language.
[15:13.600 --> 15:20.780] [SPEAKER_08]: And there are exemptions for amateur radio operators in some municipal statutes, but in most, there are not.
[15:20.920 --> 15:23.960] [SPEAKER_08]: So, it really depends on the municipality you're in.
[15:24.080 --> 15:25.840] [SPEAKER_08]: And in many cases, these are not state laws.
[15:25.980 --> 15:27.180] [SPEAKER_08]: They're local laws.
[15:27.300 --> 15:30.840] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you really have to research this to find out what the deal is.
[15:31.360 --> 15:31.760] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[15:32.000 --> 15:35.420] [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, we tracked down the mysterious Windows sound.
[15:35.580 --> 15:38.960] [SPEAKER_06]: We had another studio up, and somebody was playing with a computer in the other studio.
[15:39.160 --> 15:44.280] [SPEAKER_06]: So, fortunately, he didn't go to any objectionable websites with sound.
[15:45.440 --> 15:46.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, Joe, you had something.
[15:47.260 --> 15:48.060] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[15:48.520 --> 15:49.180] [SPEAKER_06]: No, you didn't?
[15:49.260 --> 15:49.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[15:49.580 --> 15:49.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry.
[15:51.220 --> 15:52.400] [SPEAKER_06]: We have this letter, though.
[15:53.560 --> 16:10.100] [SPEAKER_06]: In kind with the recent story of people getting in trouble for doing the right thing by telling those in charge of obvious technological security breaches, while I was attending college in my hometown, we had access to a campus-wide computer network via school-provided computer labs.
[16:10.700 --> 16:15.380] [SPEAKER_06]: As usual, with many people, I was curious and liked to check what resources are available through the network.
[16:15.380 --> 16:23.640] [SPEAKER_06]: With little more than two or three double-clicks, I found what amounted to the data and tools used to mass-import the user logins for every student in the school.
[16:24.040 --> 16:31.300] [SPEAKER_06]: The way they set up the user logins was that each user's login name was the first letter of the first name and the first eight characters of the last name.
[16:31.400 --> 16:34.040] [SPEAKER_06]: The default user password would be the student's birth date.
[16:34.320 --> 16:40.640] [SPEAKER_06]: None of this is classified as secret information, and students are encouraged to change their password as soon as possible.
[16:41.260 --> 16:47.340] [SPEAKER_06]: Normally, this would not be a problem, assuming that each student was computer-savvy or, for that matter, used the college computers.
[16:47.740 --> 16:55.520] [SPEAKER_06]: With a list of names, student IDs, and birthdates, I would have been able to gain access and control over every account that had not had its default password changed.
[16:55.660 --> 17:00.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Although this would have been easy, I decided to do the right thing and tell the head of the computer lab supervisors.
[17:00.680 --> 17:08.560] [SPEAKER_06]: After instructing the individual of the problem, I was quickly told that I should not have been looking around and that my user account will be deactivated as punishment.
[17:09.400 --> 17:16.080] [SPEAKER_06]: Having been enrolled in a computer technical program, this would have been devastating to my education, so this was equivalent to threatening my status as a student.
[17:16.200 --> 17:18.120] [SPEAKER_06]: All this for doing the right thing.
[17:18.340 --> 17:25.080] [SPEAKER_06]: And it should be noted that this took place in Canada before 9-11 and can't really be blamed on fear of terrorists, just fear of students.
[17:25.500 --> 17:26.940] [SPEAKER_06]: Signed, Lucifer Sam.
[17:27.260 --> 17:32.820] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's unfortunate that things like this have to happen, but it's pretty common.
[17:32.820 --> 17:48.140] [SPEAKER_07]: I just want to point out to Lucifer Sam that had he indeed been prohibited from using the his account, he could have always found another disused account with the username and birth date list.
[17:48.600 --> 17:55.360] [SPEAKER_07]: And unless he had to email his work to his professor, that would not have become a problem.
[17:55.700 --> 18:00.700] [SPEAKER_09]: It seems like, unfortunately, the best thing to do in these cases is just don't get involved.
[18:00.700 --> 18:02.700] [SPEAKER_09]: If you want to report the problem, do it anonymously.
[18:02.800 --> 18:10.540] [SPEAKER_09]: Otherwise, you know, you're always at risk for people saying, okay, now we're going to suspend your account because we don't trust you.
[18:11.040 --> 18:11.960] [SPEAKER_08]: Blaming the messenger.
[18:12.640 --> 18:13.220] [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[18:14.860 --> 18:18.180] [SPEAKER_06]: And we also have a bit of controversy involving Wi-Fi.
[18:18.300 --> 18:20.480] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, first of all, some news about Wi-Fi in Philadelphia.
[18:21.200 --> 18:27.280] [SPEAKER_06]: City-run broadband networks like Philadelphia's Wi-Fi scheme would get the green light under a bipartisan bill introduced in the U.S.
[18:27.420 --> 18:28.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Senate last Thursday.
[18:28.980 --> 18:42.180] [SPEAKER_06]: The Community Broadband Act of 2005 would allow local governments the option of setting up their own broadband networks, provided they did so without discrimination in favor of itself or any advanced telecommunications services provider that it owns.
[18:42.920 --> 18:55.720] [SPEAKER_06]: The measure counters a bill proposed last month by Representative Pete Sessions, which proposed barring state and local governments from supplying Internet telecommunications or cable hookups if a private company could offer a substantially similar service.
[18:56.160 --> 18:58.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Not substantially better, just similar.
[18:58.020 --> 19:01.900] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Bernie, the Philadelphia Wi-Fi project, is that still moving forward?
[19:02.660 --> 19:03.820] [SPEAKER_08]: Very, very slowly.
[19:03.840 --> 19:08.080] [SPEAKER_08]: I really think it's a pipe dream on our mayor's mind, John Street.
[19:08.280 --> 19:11.860] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not really allocated much in the way of funding.
[19:11.980 --> 19:15.720] [SPEAKER_08]: He said it's going to cost about $10 million, and it's not happening.
[19:15.720 --> 19:21.520] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just in a few areas, like Love Park, which we know and love, and a few of the other...
[19:21.520 --> 19:26.560] [SPEAKER_08]: If you've been to Philadelphia, you'll notice it's broken up into quadrants, and each quadrant has a park in it.
[19:26.620 --> 19:31.480] [SPEAKER_08]: And all four of those parks have Wi-Fi access and are provided by the city.
[19:31.960 --> 19:37.700] [SPEAKER_08]: But the ultimate goal of this, according to the mayor, is to eventually charge for this service once enough people start using it.
[19:37.700 --> 19:40.780] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's not necessarily going to be that great.
[19:41.900 --> 19:45.360] [SPEAKER_08]: Frankly, there's other cities that are going to be doing a much better job, in my opinion.
[19:45.680 --> 19:57.300] [SPEAKER_08]: And the only good thing about this thing, if this legislation goes through for sure, is that it may trump state legislation in many states that cable companies have...
[19:57.300 --> 20:13.540] [SPEAKER_08]: The cable modem providers and telecom, like DSL providers, have pushed through, ramrodded through, with some political donations, to basically prevent municipalities from starting such networks that are open to the public.
[20:13.720 --> 20:21.960] [SPEAKER_08]: So I'm hoping that the federal legislation goes through and trumps any state legislation that would make this illegal to offer.
[20:22.100 --> 20:25.580] [SPEAKER_08]: Philadelphia had an exemption because the mayor, who is former...
[20:25.580 --> 20:29.480] [SPEAKER_08]: Our former mayor, who is now the governor, cut a deal with Verizon.
[20:29.640 --> 20:33.820] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like, okay, we'll let it happen in Philadelphia, but nowhere else in the state will we let this happen.
[20:34.340 --> 20:34.740] [SPEAKER_08]: So...
[20:34.740 --> 20:48.140] [SPEAKER_08]: But I hope this allows all municipalities to be able to do what they want, you know, with the public's approval, rather than it just be limited as a result of some crooked legislation pushed through by broadband providers.
[20:48.400 --> 20:52.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, on the subject of Wi-Fi, of course, there's...
[20:52.720 --> 20:55.360] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess that's one of the more positive things, but of course, there are also...
[20:55.360 --> 20:57.000] [SPEAKER_06]: The negative things that go along with it.
[20:57.460 --> 21:05.320] [SPEAKER_06]: There seems to be a rash of clampdowns on people who are simply surfing around or war dial...
[21:05.320 --> 21:06.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Not war dialing.
[21:06.340 --> 21:06.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Driving.
[21:06.760 --> 21:07.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, war driving.
[21:08.140 --> 21:10.300] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess, you know, putting the word war in there probably doesn't help.
[21:10.580 --> 21:16.260] [SPEAKER_06]: But, I mean, basically, people are just simply seeing a signal, an unencrypted signal that they can latch onto and connect to the Internet.
[21:16.600 --> 21:18.220] [SPEAKER_06]: And oftentimes, it happens from your own house.
[21:18.640 --> 21:20.380] [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, we were at a gas station the other day.
[21:20.560 --> 21:22.660] [SPEAKER_06]: All of a sudden, we were getting signal for no reason.
[21:22.740 --> 21:24.400] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know why a gas station had that.
[21:24.400 --> 21:25.460] [SPEAKER_11]: I was actually thinking it would be nice.
[21:25.600 --> 21:37.780] [SPEAKER_11]: On the MTA, as I was getting a ride on the train home one time, you know, every couple of stops, there'd be a nearby open wireless site, which was nice because I was working on something and I needed to get some images off the web.
[21:37.860 --> 21:39.620] [SPEAKER_11]: And so, you know, every few stops...
[21:39.620 --> 21:40.380] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a good thing to have.
[21:40.380 --> 21:42.700] [SPEAKER_06]: But apparently, people are getting in a lot of trouble for this now.
[21:42.700 --> 21:53.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, there was this guy in St. Petersburg who was sitting outside someone's house on their open wireless network, you know, unencrypted and all that.
[21:53.260 --> 21:55.660] [SPEAKER_11]: And this guy saw him through the window and called the police.
[21:56.120 --> 22:05.460] [SPEAKER_11]: And so, the police arrested him for, quote, you know, quote, unquote, hacking the guy's wireless network, by which, I mean, he pulled up in a car and was connected to it.
[22:05.460 --> 22:05.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Mm-hmm.
[22:07.000 --> 22:07.360] [SPEAKER_11]: Now...
[22:07.360 --> 22:09.620] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, is it legal to pull up in a car and sit outside somebody's house?
[22:10.340 --> 22:10.960] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[22:11.000 --> 22:11.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe that's the law.
[22:11.680 --> 22:12.320] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I mean, he was in the street.
[22:12.560 --> 22:15.160] [SPEAKER_11]: But the thing is...
[22:15.160 --> 22:16.700] [SPEAKER_11]: The thing about it is that if the guy...
[22:16.700 --> 22:21.900] [SPEAKER_11]: If the wireless network was open, you know, you're inviting people and you're broadcasting it into the streets.
[22:22.920 --> 22:23.960] [SPEAKER_11]: So, I don't think...
[22:23.960 --> 22:25.260] [SPEAKER_11]: It depends on what he was doing.
[22:25.380 --> 22:40.240] [SPEAKER_11]: If he was using his position to, you know, do something on their computers and get their information off of their machines and do something actually malicious, I would say that, well, maybe they should have come down on him, but...
[22:40.240 --> 22:44.280] [SPEAKER_11]: But how is it different than dialing up something, dialing up a computer or connecting?
[22:44.640 --> 22:45.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's not.
[22:45.740 --> 22:50.900] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, and it's even less so because they're, you know, you don't even have to...
[22:50.900 --> 22:53.640] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you can drive around looking for these networks, but you're not...
[22:53.640 --> 22:56.320] [SPEAKER_11]: They're basically inviting you in.
[22:56.580 --> 22:57.680] [SPEAKER_11]: How are they inviting you in?
[22:57.740 --> 23:02.000] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, because they're broadcasting their names into the streets and they're completely unencrypted.
[23:02.240 --> 23:04.660] [SPEAKER_11]: So, there's nothing preventing you from connecting to it.
[23:04.660 --> 23:14.960] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, if you were driving down the street with a laptop, just, you know, running your laptop, not even trying to connect the networks, I'm sure that you would connect to several just because they were there.
[23:15.120 --> 23:17.860] [SPEAKER_06]: So, they don't ask for a username or a password or anything like that.
[23:17.960 --> 23:20.340] [SPEAKER_06]: They just simply connect to your computer and then you're on the Internet.
[23:20.480 --> 23:21.020] [SPEAKER_06]: It's that easy.
[23:21.120 --> 23:21.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[23:21.240 --> 23:40.200] [SPEAKER_10]: If you look at who's behind a lot of these prosecutions, who's really out-quoted in the article we're referencing supporting these prosecutions, it's the cable and the DSL companies who think that you shouldn't be allowed to share your wireless access even if you want to because they feel it takes away a customer from them.
[23:40.420 --> 23:45.840] [SPEAKER_10]: They really want you to pay, pay them every time you access the Internet.
[23:45.840 --> 23:48.620] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I had a friend whose cousin lived next door to him.
[23:48.960 --> 23:57.160] [SPEAKER_11]: So, the two families, obviously, rather than running a wire between their house, they set up a wireless network and shared a mutual, I think it was a DSL connection.
[23:58.300 --> 23:59.600] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't see the problem with that.
[23:59.700 --> 24:01.760] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, they could have run a wire between their house.
[24:01.900 --> 24:11.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, would the cable companies actually come after them for doing this or are they simply agreeing with people who say they don't want their computers being used by people parked outside their house?
[24:12.460 --> 24:14.940] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's difficult to say.
[24:15.060 --> 24:26.060] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, one of the terms of service, what are the terms of service in the contract that you agree to in exchange for this wireless service, in exchange for your connectivity to the Internet?
[24:26.060 --> 24:29.600] [SPEAKER_08]: What if you agree to not allow other people to use the service?
[24:30.100 --> 24:31.960] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you in breach of contract for doing that?
[24:32.060 --> 24:35.780] [SPEAKER_10]: This is only a sensible question if you actually get a chance to negotiate the contract.
[24:36.180 --> 24:39.960] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I agree it's not sensible, but it is what it is.
[24:39.980 --> 24:44.460] [SPEAKER_08]: If you agree that you're not going to do this, then are you going to keep your word or not?
[24:44.500 --> 24:52.880] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think people should be limited to not being able to share their connection personally, but that's not what the contract says that people agree to.
[24:53.200 --> 24:57.000] [SPEAKER_06]: But the guy driving around in the car, he didn't agree to anything because he didn't sign anything.
[24:57.180 --> 25:04.800] [SPEAKER_06]: This is somebody just driving around with a computer who's able to connect to various signals that are popping out and not have to enter any kind of password or username or anything like that.
[25:04.980 --> 25:07.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think there's a case against that person?
[25:07.120 --> 25:08.240] [SPEAKER_08]: There is.
[25:08.480 --> 25:23.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Because, and again, I don't agree that there could be a case against him, but the way the law is in virtually every state, there are state statutes on the books in virtually every state that are pushed through by utilities and phone companies and that forth called theft of services.
[25:24.300 --> 25:36.220] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you get on the Internet through someone else's Internet connection, even if they have a really careless Wi-Fi network set up, you are accessing services that you're not paying for.
[25:36.400 --> 25:40.540] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, I think it's ludicrous to prosecute someone for that, but that's what the law says.
[25:40.620 --> 25:41.540] [SPEAKER_08]: And these aren't new laws.
[25:41.580 --> 25:44.720] [SPEAKER_08]: These laws have been on the books for decades, theft of services.
[25:45.580 --> 25:51.120] [SPEAKER_08]: There really needs to be some thoughtful laws passed in this area, and there aren't right now.
[25:51.160 --> 25:57.300] [SPEAKER_08]: And it leaves all this vagaries out there that any prosecutor can just steamroll anybody in a case like this.
[25:57.300 --> 26:05.960] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's unfortunate because there's a lot of blame to go around if somebody has it's so careless to provide their Internet connection to anybody who drives by.
[26:06.240 --> 26:11.480] [SPEAKER_08]: I think there should be some liability there if someone else happens to stumble across it and gets prosecuted.
[26:11.620 --> 26:12.320] [SPEAKER_08]: But there isn't.
[26:13.740 --> 26:14.760] [SPEAKER_08]: So just wait.
[26:14.800 --> 26:18.760] [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't matter how easy it is to gain access to the Internet that you're not paying for.
[26:18.980 --> 26:20.420] [SPEAKER_08]: It's still theft of services.
[26:20.580 --> 26:22.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And again, I don't agree with that, but that's what the law says.
[26:23.060 --> 26:24.800] [SPEAKER_11]: Matthew Feeney, I have a question for you.
[26:25.660 --> 26:41.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Aside from theft of services, with wireless networks, it's possible to passively sniff the traffic that's going by and see all sorts of interesting things like someone could be connecting to their email not using SSL or something to encrypt their user information.
[26:41.400 --> 26:47.300] [SPEAKER_11]: If someone were sitting outside their house and they saw this traffic go by, that doesn't fall under theft of services.
[26:47.460 --> 26:49.160] [SPEAKER_11]: Do you think that there would be a case against them?
[26:49.880 --> 26:51.240] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a really good question.
[26:51.580 --> 26:57.420] [SPEAKER_08]: You're not gaining a service as a result of your actions without paying for it.
[26:57.520 --> 26:59.540] [SPEAKER_08]: So it wouldn't be theft of services.
[26:59.640 --> 27:01.920] [SPEAKER_05]: But you are eavesdropping, passive eavesdropping.
[27:02.400 --> 27:04.140] [SPEAKER_08]: There may be some other law.
[27:05.540 --> 27:07.200] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know the answer to that.
[27:07.420 --> 27:12.260] [SPEAKER_08]: It could be... it really depends on the level of intrusion or if it was just completely passive.
[27:12.620 --> 27:26.780] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think so because those frequencies are wide open and the FCC has even said that you have to... this type of service, Part 15, which is what Wi-Fi falls under, 2.4 gigahertz typically for the 802.11b.
[27:26.980 --> 27:34.600] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the same frequency the microwave ovens use and they're freely open and anybody who operates such a network has to accept any interference that someone causes.
[27:34.820 --> 27:38.340] [SPEAKER_06]: But how is this different than listening on a radio?
[27:38.600 --> 27:41.640] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, just turning on your radio and hearing chatter, okay?
[27:41.660 --> 27:43.040] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the same thing, I think.
[27:43.080 --> 27:45.180] [SPEAKER_06]: It's because going over the airwaves is unencrypted.
[27:45.380 --> 27:46.160] [SPEAKER_06]: How is it different?
[27:46.320 --> 27:47.060] [SPEAKER_11]: It's not... I agree.
[27:47.320 --> 27:47.980] [SPEAKER_11]: It's not different.
[27:48.100 --> 27:51.920] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's like you're standing on a soapbox and saying, I want to connect to you.
[27:52.760 --> 27:54.520] [SPEAKER_11]: This is my information, you know.
[27:54.640 --> 27:54.920] [SPEAKER_09]: Redbird.
[27:55.100 --> 28:02.360] [SPEAKER_09]: I agree, but... What it seems like this all comes down to is educating the consumers as to what devices they're plugging into their networks, okay?
[28:02.520 --> 28:08.740] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it seems like people are just buying things off the shelves and thinking that, okay, it's perfectly all right to just plug this in.
[28:08.880 --> 28:09.880] [SPEAKER_09]: Don't bother configuring it.
[28:09.980 --> 28:21.860] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, anyone who's used a computer with a wireless card in a public area knows how many times they see Linksys, NETGEAR, all the default SSIDs on their, you know, showing up because nobody bothers to configure anything.
[28:22.020 --> 28:28.600] [SPEAKER_09]: And one of the silly things is that a lot of the providers now are giving these devices to people.
[28:28.780 --> 28:35.700] [SPEAKER_09]: And nowhere in the account setup or anything like that is there an option to configure the wireless access point.
[28:35.760 --> 28:38.140] [SPEAKER_09]: I just recently set up one of Verizon's devices.
[28:38.480 --> 28:41.700] [SPEAKER_09]: And it was just default, wide open, anybody could connect.
[28:41.820 --> 28:47.720] [SPEAKER_09]: And so it is beginning to become partially the fault of the ISPs that this is possible.
[28:47.760 --> 28:52.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, I just think it's completely ludicrous and silly to actually be threatening people who are just simply tapping in and connecting.
[28:53.000 --> 28:57.740] [SPEAKER_06]: But something that I think is of a little bit more concern are these evil twin attacks.
[28:57.840 --> 28:58.740] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm familiar with these.
[28:59.000 --> 29:08.660] [SPEAKER_06]: This is where someone, I guess, poses as a Wi-Fi provider that somebody thinks is Verizon or a cable company or something like that.
[29:09.120 --> 29:11.960] [SPEAKER_06]: And supposedly they get all kinds of information that way.
[29:12.040 --> 29:19.920] [SPEAKER_06]: My question is, though, if you're using encryption from your laptop or whatever it is you're connecting wirelessly from, are you not protected?
[29:20.100 --> 29:21.480] [SPEAKER_06]: How much information can they get?
[29:21.640 --> 29:24.680] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you have to be careful as far as... I mean, that's a classic man in the middle attack.
[29:24.700 --> 29:28.980] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's just that this is just like a new way of implementing the same sort of attack that's been used for ages.
[29:29.260 --> 29:33.900] [SPEAKER_09]: But you have to be careful as far as verifying the certificates and whatnot, because you can use encryption.
[29:34.120 --> 29:43.300] [SPEAKER_09]: But if you're encrypting it to the third-party that's listening in between the two legitimate contacts, you know, you're not gaining any security by that.
[29:43.320 --> 29:48.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, let's say I use SSH, which is the way that many people log into computers.
[29:48.240 --> 29:53.560] [SPEAKER_06]: I use SSH client on my laptop, and I connect to the system that I usually connect to.
[29:53.860 --> 29:56.260] [SPEAKER_06]: And it asks me for my password, and I tell it the password.
[29:56.380 --> 30:00.360] [SPEAKER_06]: And I am logged into that system, yet I'm using somebody else's Wi-Fi connection.
[30:00.540 --> 30:01.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Am I at risk in any way?
[30:02.020 --> 30:12.920] [SPEAKER_09]: As long as you have the fingerprint cached, and you've verified that it's correct, which you don't, which you generally don't have to do, because SSH will give you a big warning that says, okay, this fingerprint has changed, you're generally secure.
[30:13.280 --> 30:15.100] [SPEAKER_11]: It depends on how much attention you pay.
[30:15.280 --> 30:21.980] [SPEAKER_11]: And I feel like I don't, I haven't heard much about the evil twin attack, but it sounds like they just put up a page that looks the same as the login page for like a T-Mobile hotspot.
[30:22.160 --> 30:23.040] [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I imagine.
[30:23.200 --> 30:24.300] [SPEAKER_06]: I've never actually encountered it myself.
[30:24.300 --> 30:25.580] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't even think they'd have to verify it.
[30:25.620 --> 30:28.720] [SPEAKER_11]: They just say, oh, well, okay, you got through, the same service.
[30:28.920 --> 30:31.480] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, there's all sorts of attacks that can be used with that method.
[30:31.640 --> 30:33.040] [SPEAKER_09]: You can use SSH man-in-the-middle attacks.
[30:33.200 --> 30:35.240] [SPEAKER_09]: You can use all sorts of man-in-the-middle attacks for that.
[30:35.640 --> 30:41.480] [SPEAKER_09]: And as well, you can log all the traffic that goes through, and most of the logins are still unencrypted, unfortunately.
[30:41.580 --> 30:50.300] [SPEAKER_11]: But even then, I mean, for the T-Mobile hotspots and whatnot, what you do is you end up with, if your MAC address isn't registered with that hotspot, you end up with a page that asks you to log in.
[30:50.420 --> 31:01.600] [SPEAKER_11]: So right then, it would be like one of those emails that, you know, says, oh, well, we need your eBay information, and then redirect you to a fake page, except a lot harder to figure out because it would look exactly... I mean, how do you know?
[31:01.700 --> 31:05.760] [SPEAKER_11]: The SSID is T-Mobile, and it's providing the same look.
[31:06.480 --> 31:10.380] [SPEAKER_06]: It seems like it would be somewhat coordinated for it to actually fool somebody.
[31:10.780 --> 31:17.180] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's simply... what I think the media is doing is making people afraid of using someone else's Wi-Fi connection.
[31:17.560 --> 31:25.680] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, something that you ordinarily do could be compromised because you're not using Verizon's Wi-Fi.
[31:25.680 --> 31:28.540] [SPEAKER_06]: You're using, you know, Joe's Wi-Fi down the street or something.
[31:28.700 --> 31:30.720] [SPEAKER_11]: No, I don't think it has to be very coordinated.
[31:30.940 --> 31:38.220] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you just set up a hotspot, or set up an access point, set its SSID as T-Mobile, and then make...
[31:38.220 --> 31:39.700] [SPEAKER_06]: But that's the coordination right there.
[31:39.780 --> 31:40.720] [SPEAKER_06]: You're setting it as T-Mobile.
[31:40.820 --> 31:41.220] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, right, right.
[31:41.380 --> 31:46.680] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you're pretending to be something you're not, and then you're getting people to think that you're T-Mobile and giving you the information.
[31:46.680 --> 31:47.880] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's fairly simple to do.
[31:47.980 --> 31:48.500] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, it's simple.
[31:48.620 --> 31:49.600] [SPEAKER_11]: No, I didn't say it wasn't simple.
[31:49.700 --> 31:51.460] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just you would have to want to do that.
[31:51.620 --> 31:59.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Simply connecting accidentally to somebody's... If I run a hotspot, you know, from my house, and people driving by connect to it...
[31:59.380 --> 32:00.700] [SPEAKER_06]: No one drives by your house.
[32:00.800 --> 32:02.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, they know better.
[32:02.240 --> 32:07.340] [SPEAKER_06]: But the point is, if they do that, all right, I'm not getting information from them, am I?
[32:07.600 --> 32:11.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Unless I try to fool them by identifying myself as something I'm not.
[32:11.320 --> 32:11.880] [SPEAKER_06]: No, you could.
[32:11.880 --> 32:13.540] [SPEAKER_06]: You could sniff their traffic, but...
[32:13.540 --> 32:16.080] [SPEAKER_06]: What can I sniff if they're encrypted from the laptop?
[32:17.240 --> 32:19.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Most people... You could.
[32:19.340 --> 32:22.380] [SPEAKER_10]: You could run a man-in-the-middle attack, and most people would just click OK.
[32:23.120 --> 32:25.100] [SPEAKER_10]: They wouldn't think twice about the key changing.
[32:25.220 --> 32:25.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, the key.
[32:25.860 --> 32:26.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, they must have changed.
[32:26.420 --> 32:29.840] [SPEAKER_06]: But again, I'd have to coordinate that and, you know, pretend to be something I'm not.
[32:29.840 --> 32:33.440] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think this is something that very many people need to be afraid of, if that's what you're asking.
[32:33.460 --> 32:33.580] [SPEAKER_10]: OK.
[32:33.720 --> 32:36.280] [SPEAKER_06]: That's... Yeah, that's pretty much the sentence that I think could conclude all of this.
[32:37.180 --> 32:49.180] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a scare tactic, and I think another, you know, method of the cable companies and the DSL companies, getting people to want to connect to them and be afraid of connecting to anything else.
[32:49.240 --> 32:58.220] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, one thing about it, though, with these... When you offer your wireless network to someone, so a lot of people say, oh, well, I've got this router, and it's got a firewall built in, so it protects me from the Internet.
[32:58.380 --> 33:01.640] [SPEAKER_11]: But if you're offering this network to people, they're automatically inside your network.
[33:01.780 --> 33:02.780] [SPEAKER_11]: They're behind all that.
[33:02.940 --> 33:03.120] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[33:03.120 --> 33:16.160] [SPEAKER_11]: So if your machines aren't secured in some way, however way, and what kind of machine you have, then they are open and vulnerable, and they're not offered that kind of layer of protection that one of these hardware firewalls does, and that it's not public to the Internet.
[33:16.160 --> 33:26.380] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're putting yourself at considerably more risk by opening yourself up than anybody connecting to you is being put at, unless they do something phenomenally stupid and don't check things.
[33:27.400 --> 33:27.840] [SPEAKER_06]: So...
[33:27.840 --> 33:28.140] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[33:28.200 --> 33:31.240] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think that opens up a whole kettle of worms there.
[33:31.240 --> 33:38.200] [SPEAKER_06]: So if you have any thoughts on this, you can either call us now, 212-209-2900, or you can write to us.
[33:38.920 --> 33:41.000] [SPEAKER_06]: And again, you know, we'd like to hear from all the new people.
[33:41.180 --> 33:50.540] [SPEAKER_06]: We understand that we were listed on the podcasting directory for Apple when they released the new iTunes, and we've been getting mail from people.
[33:50.960 --> 33:54.060] [SPEAKER_06]: If you're one of those people, you can either call us or write to us.
[33:54.580 --> 33:55.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Our email address...
[33:55.380 --> 33:56.660] [SPEAKER_10]: You can't call us if you're on the podcast.
[33:56.900 --> 33:57.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Why not?
[33:57.240 --> 33:58.240] [SPEAKER_06]: They could be listening live, couldn't they?
[33:58.280 --> 33:58.720] [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no.
[33:58.720 --> 33:59.480] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, they can't listen live.
[33:59.500 --> 33:59.880] [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[33:59.880 --> 34:01.860] [SPEAKER_06]: But you can't listen to a stream live.
[34:02.040 --> 34:02.520] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[34:03.040 --> 34:03.480] [SPEAKER_10]: So if you're...
[34:03.480 --> 34:07.380] [SPEAKER_10]: So if you're a podcast listener, next week you should listen live and call us.
[34:07.460 --> 34:10.580] [SPEAKER_06]: Or maybe you're listening live now because you listened last week on the podcast.
[34:10.580 --> 34:19.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Or if you're listening to this show in the future, and it happens to be a Wednesday night, New York City local time, 7 to 8 p.m., you can call us.
[34:19.540 --> 34:23.120] [SPEAKER_06]: If we're still on Wednesday nights, and if there is still in New York City, yeah.
[34:23.760 --> 34:24.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Good point.
[34:24.340 --> 34:26.860] [SPEAKER_06]: If you've mastered time travel, come back here and just visit us.
[34:27.560 --> 34:28.960] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, there's always that option.
[34:30.040 --> 34:33.360] [SPEAKER_06]: But we have a couple of letters from people who listened for the first time.
[34:33.460 --> 34:37.160] [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, I think we are getting a lot more people as a result of this, but I'd like to know for sure.
[34:37.400 --> 34:38.220] [SPEAKER_06]: So write to us.
[34:38.500 --> 34:41.140] [SPEAKER_06]: oth@2600.com is our email address.
[34:41.140 --> 34:45.600] [SPEAKER_06]: If you are so inclined and you want to send us paper mail instead, we accept that.
[34:46.340 --> 34:47.780] [SPEAKER_06]: It's unusual, but we do accept it.
[34:48.360 --> 34:56.220] [SPEAKER_06]: You can write to us, off the hook, care of, WBAI, 120 Wall Street.
[34:57.520 --> 34:58.240] [SPEAKER_06]: 10th floor.
[34:59.040 --> 34:59.700] [SPEAKER_06]: New York.
[35:00.440 --> 35:01.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, Walter.
[35:01.260 --> 35:01.420] [SPEAKER_06]: How are you doing?
[35:01.440 --> 35:02.020] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't know you were here.
[35:02.860 --> 35:03.540] [SPEAKER_06]: New York.
[35:03.820 --> 35:04.340] [SPEAKER_06]: New York.
[35:04.680 --> 35:07.080] [SPEAKER_06]: 1-0-0-0-5.
[35:07.380 --> 35:08.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Such a big studio.
[35:08.540 --> 35:10.040] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't even see everybody who's in here.
[35:10.780 --> 35:13.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, let's read a letter or two from people podcasting.
[35:14.600 --> 35:19.840] [SPEAKER_06]: Podcastees, I guess is what you could... You know, Mike, I know you don't like the phrase, but you know it has absolutely nothing to do with Apple.
[35:20.320 --> 35:23.320] [SPEAKER_06]: The etymology of the word podcasting has nothing to do with iPods.
[35:23.960 --> 35:24.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[35:24.280 --> 35:24.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that so?
[35:24.760 --> 35:25.100] [SPEAKER_06]: It's true.
[35:25.220 --> 35:25.980] [SPEAKER_06]: It has to do with feet?
[35:26.340 --> 35:31.400] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know exactly what it... If you look it up on Wikipedia or something, I'm sure they'll tell you everything you need to know about it.
[35:32.000 --> 35:34.500] [SPEAKER_06]: But my understanding is that it had nothing to do with Apple.
[35:34.580 --> 35:47.000] [SPEAKER_11]: They just started using it now in their lexicon, so... Well, no, but I think the terminology came from the fact that you would have a program download some archive and put it directly to your iPod, which you'd then listen to later.
[35:47.240 --> 35:48.260] [SPEAKER_11]: That's podcasting.
[35:48.260 --> 35:49.280] [SPEAKER_06]: That's not where podcasting came.
[35:49.380 --> 35:50.660] [SPEAKER_06]: It had nothing to do with the iPod.
[35:51.240 --> 35:52.100] [SPEAKER_07]: Invasion of the body?
[35:52.340 --> 35:52.940] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what?
[35:52.960 --> 35:53.740] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have the information.
[35:53.860 --> 35:58.180] [SPEAKER_06]: I just heard that little snippet shouted out to me by somebody, and I retained it, all right?
[35:58.220 --> 35:59.400] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm spinning it back out.
[35:59.520 --> 36:02.340] [SPEAKER_10]: So if it's not true, I'll apologize for it, but I think it is.
[36:02.440 --> 36:10.900] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to set up a rival group of listeners, and we're going to download MP3 files through RSS enclosures, and we'll see who wins.
[36:12.320 --> 36:22.420] [SPEAKER_06]: With the addition of podcasting to iTunes and all the attention to that podcasting is getting lately, this is from a listener, by the way, I can't help but wonder if it is doomed to ruin.
[36:22.720 --> 36:32.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Podcasting and fan films slash fiction have been a little-known outlet for cyber-Bohemian types and provided countless hours of free, of advertisement-free entertainment.
[36:33.220 --> 36:46.640] [SPEAKER_06]: The way I see it, since no one is really making much money off of it, and since the quality of fan films and podcasts are increasing exponentially, like Star Wars Revelations and things like that, providing a free alternative to big business.
[36:47.800 --> 36:53.600] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's another reference here to Star Trek fan show known as Star Trek Excalibur.
[36:54.020 --> 36:56.540] [SPEAKER_06]: At some point, someone will step in to squash this.
[36:56.760 --> 36:57.220] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you all agree?
[36:57.300 --> 37:02.820] [SPEAKER_06]: And if so, is there something we can do now beforehand to try to secure our rights and freedoms to use this mode of free expression?
[37:03.480 --> 37:04.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Signed, Eerie.
[37:05.960 --> 37:10.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Gosh, you know, it's tough when things get popular, you know?
[37:10.580 --> 37:18.900] [SPEAKER_06]: When things are only known by a few people, you can get away with a lot more, obviously, and when things become mainstream, yeah, that's when the corporations take an interest.
[37:19.100 --> 37:22.740] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a tough quandary that we find ourselves in lots of times.
[37:22.740 --> 37:23.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Any suggestions?
[37:24.780 --> 37:25.180] [SPEAKER_06]: No?
[37:25.560 --> 37:27.480] [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of shoulders shrugging around here.
[37:27.480 --> 37:30.500] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm looking forward to fan fiction based on the radio show.
[37:30.940 --> 37:31.880] [SPEAKER_07]: That would be interesting.
[37:32.240 --> 37:34.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm willing to give it up to the public domain.
[37:35.020 --> 37:36.500] [SPEAKER_06]: That would be something, yeah.
[37:36.720 --> 37:38.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we won't sue, I guess.
[37:38.360 --> 37:41.120] [SPEAKER_07]: I won't sue unless it's truly defamatory.
[37:41.360 --> 37:41.620] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[37:42.040 --> 37:42.340] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[37:42.560 --> 37:43.780] [SPEAKER_11]: Are you ready to apologize?
[37:44.220 --> 37:45.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, you found something?
[37:45.260 --> 37:45.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[37:45.460 --> 37:45.820] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, go ahead.
[37:45.860 --> 37:46.000] [SPEAKER_06]: Read it.
[37:46.020 --> 37:46.740] [SPEAKER_11]: This is from Wikipedia.
[37:47.320 --> 37:47.940] [SPEAKER_11]: You've got it.
[37:48.080 --> 37:49.100] [SPEAKER_11]: You obscured it a bit.
[37:49.720 --> 37:55.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Podcasting is a portmanteau combining broadcasting with the name of Apple's computer's iPod audio player.
[37:56.120 --> 38:01.200] [SPEAKER_11]: Although podcasting was not invented by Apple, nor do podcasts require a portable player or Apple software.
[38:01.300 --> 38:01.880] [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't say that.
[38:01.960 --> 38:03.900] [SPEAKER_11]: I just said that it was... the name came from it.
[38:04.580 --> 38:04.780] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[38:04.820 --> 38:08.720] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to have to find my source and see if... they're totally debunked then.
[38:08.800 --> 38:11.800] [SPEAKER_06]: The pea farmers of America are upset.
[38:13.140 --> 38:13.580] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[38:13.580 --> 38:17.160] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought the term existed before the iPod even, but maybe not.
[38:18.280 --> 38:18.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[38:18.680 --> 38:19.520] [SPEAKER_06]: What else do we have here?
[38:19.680 --> 38:25.400] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess I'm one of those hundreds of new listeners you've gathered through that wonderful medium whose name you seem to abhor at podcasting.
[38:27.740 --> 38:28.880] [SPEAKER_10]: We like our listeners.
[38:29.200 --> 38:29.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[38:29.540 --> 38:31.620] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to... I just don't like the term.
[38:31.660 --> 38:33.040] [SPEAKER_06]: This is from Thomas in the Netherlands.
[38:33.640 --> 38:37.700] [SPEAKER_06]: What I was wondering about is why you guys seem so opposed to a uniform ID card.
[38:38.000 --> 38:44.560] [SPEAKER_06]: You mentioned those in two separate occasions recently, real ID, whatever it's called in the US, and the one the government in the UK is pushing for.
[38:44.840 --> 38:46.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Personally, I don't see any real downside to them.
[38:47.060 --> 38:57.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Probably since we've had them for years in the Netherlands, for at least a decade now, anyone has the free choice of either getting a passport or a European ID card, both of which are the only 100% valid IDs in the whole of Europe.
[38:58.400 --> 39:00.880] [SPEAKER_06]: These cards are luckily not that easy to falsify.
[39:01.020 --> 39:05.900] [SPEAKER_06]: And in my opinion, they're actually quite useful given the fact that they provide free travel within most of the EU.
[39:06.580 --> 39:09.700] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess free meaning unencumbered, not free doesn't cost money.
[39:10.300 --> 39:15.600] [SPEAKER_06]: So why do you guys object to using such a method to replace the multitude of current ID methods in the US?
[39:15.700 --> 39:16.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Jim, you have an answer?
[39:16.960 --> 39:25.260] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, I think it has to do with the idea that any tool that exists tends to be used sooner or later.
[39:25.820 --> 39:37.740] [SPEAKER_07]: And the idea of walking down the street and being stopped while doing nothing by a policeman who demands your papers is anathema to the average American.
[39:37.940 --> 40:01.780] [SPEAKER_07]: It brings... you forget that the vast majority of us, and if not the vast majority, our mental, our gestalt, our organic memories of this culture, our grandparents, our great-grandparents came from oppressive European countries where they were either the peasants or they were the minorities,
[40:02.060 --> 40:09.440] [SPEAKER_07]: the religious minorities, the ethnic minorities, who would be stopped by the national police, by the king's soldiers.
[40:09.780 --> 40:16.540] [SPEAKER_06]: But Jim, with all due respect, I do think the Dutch have very, very vivid memories of that kind of thing in the last half century.
[40:16.760 --> 40:19.720] [SPEAKER_07]: I think their memories are fading much faster than ours.
[40:20.360 --> 40:25.160] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I don't want to be stopped just strolling on the street and ask for my papers.
[40:25.400 --> 40:37.400] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to defend our Dutch listeners, although not the Dutch state, because I actually exchanged some further emails with this person who came to realize why the card is no good.
[40:37.540 --> 40:38.700] [SPEAKER_10]: Why is the card no good, then?
[40:39.140 --> 40:43.980] [SPEAKER_10]: The reason is we don't want this government massive database with everyone's information in it.
[40:44.060 --> 40:51.680] [SPEAKER_10]: There's all kinds of things that will be done with that database, very few of which will benefit us.
[40:51.780 --> 41:03.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, week after week, we report on the things that are being done with these databases, how they're being abused and lost and found by people who have no business finding them, and all kinds of horrible things like that.
[41:03.520 --> 41:07.260] [SPEAKER_09]: And those are small compared to what this national ID card would bring.
[41:07.360 --> 41:19.920] [SPEAKER_10]: There's actually, in the Netherlands, as of this past January 1st, a law that I just learned about over the past week or so, where if a Dutch police officer asks you for your ID, you must show it to him.
[41:21.140 --> 41:23.220] [SPEAKER_10]: This is a new law in the Netherlands.
[41:23.220 --> 41:30.220] [SPEAKER_10]: And they're targeting the people that we say they'll target, and they're all this silly nonsense.
[41:30.220 --> 41:38.840] [SPEAKER_10]: So there's a website that has some insane Dutch name that I don't remember, which proposes a kind of small bit of resistance.
[41:38.940 --> 41:47.680] [SPEAKER_10]: And that is that if any time a police officer asks you for your papers, you should ask the officer for his or her papers.
[41:47.760 --> 41:49.200] [SPEAKER_10]: And you're guaranteed to have a friend for life.
[41:49.200 --> 41:50.060] [SPEAKER_10]: A friend for life.
[41:50.240 --> 41:55.220] [SPEAKER_10]: It's called, the English translation of it is tit for tat, but the Dutch name, I don't know.
[41:55.460 --> 41:55.820] [SPEAKER_10]: It's insane.
[41:55.920 --> 42:12.840] [SPEAKER_08]: In this country, there are some states, and the Supreme Court has ruled that it is constitutional for a state to pass legislation, a law requiring you to give up your papers or, you know, put your ID card to any police officer who asks you and go to jail if you don't.
[42:12.840 --> 42:16.000] [SPEAKER_06]: But what if you don't have a driver's license or a non-driver's ID?
[42:16.760 --> 42:18.880] [SPEAKER_08]: That wasn't addressed in the decision.
[42:19.340 --> 42:21.800] [SPEAKER_08]: But, and I think it was, Jim, what was that, in Arkansas?
[42:22.000 --> 42:23.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no, Nevada, actually.
[42:23.660 --> 42:25.160] [SPEAKER_07]: We talked about this about a year ago.
[42:25.300 --> 42:29.740] [SPEAKER_07]: It's, I think it's, I know how the name is spelled, H-I-I-B-E-L.
[42:29.980 --> 42:32.480] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's either hibble.com or hibble.org.
[42:32.700 --> 42:37.400] [SPEAKER_07]: One of these websites will tell you everything that can go wrong when the cops ask you for your ID.
[42:38.280 --> 42:38.880] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[42:39.540 --> 42:41.520] [SPEAKER_06]: With that, let's launch into some phone calls.
[42:41.640 --> 42:44.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[42:45.000 --> 42:46.840] [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, let's give a couple seconds for the phone calls to come in.
[42:46.940 --> 42:48.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Mike, you got a letter this week.
[42:48.440 --> 42:49.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I got a letter from the U.S.
[42:50.120 --> 42:51.960] [SPEAKER_10]: Customs and Border Protection Agency.
[42:53.020 --> 43:00.220] [SPEAKER_10]: As listeners will recall, I wrote them a letter last August with some issues when we came back from Canada.
[43:00.760 --> 43:02.340] [SPEAKER_10]: And they wrote me a letter.
[43:02.480 --> 43:06.820] [SPEAKER_10]: They apologizing for not responding to my letter in a timely fashion.
[43:07.000 --> 43:08.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Are they apologizing for searching our car?
[43:09.020 --> 43:10.420] [SPEAKER_10]: No, they don't apologize for that.
[43:10.480 --> 43:13.440] [SPEAKER_10]: But the letter was sent to the wrong office for processing originally.
[43:13.700 --> 43:14.880] [SPEAKER_10]: And then they go on and on.
[43:14.960 --> 43:17.320] [SPEAKER_10]: But the question I have is, don't they know they already sent me a letter?
[43:18.320 --> 43:19.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Is it the same department?
[43:19.700 --> 43:20.320] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[43:20.780 --> 43:23.940] [SPEAKER_10]: It's the same Department of Homeland Security, U.S.
[43:24.060 --> 43:25.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Customs and Border Protection.
[43:25.480 --> 43:27.640] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if they have sub-departments or whatever.
[43:27.980 --> 43:29.740] [SPEAKER_10]: This letter is slightly more informative.
[43:29.940 --> 43:37.600] [SPEAKER_10]: It actually sort of answers the question that I had posed, which is, why do they make you leave when they search the car?
[43:37.720 --> 43:41.980] [SPEAKER_10]: And the answer they give is, because there's a directive saying so.
[43:42.120 --> 43:45.660] [SPEAKER_10]: Which is not really an answer, but it's more of an answer than I really expected.
[43:45.940 --> 43:46.180] [SPEAKER_10]: So...
[43:46.180 --> 43:47.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe they can clarify it more in the third letter.
[43:48.060 --> 43:48.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe.
[43:48.980 --> 43:50.980] [SPEAKER_06]: That should be due, what, another six months or so?
[43:51.000 --> 43:51.480] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess.
[43:51.660 --> 43:59.380] [SPEAKER_10]: The one thing that's curious about this letter is that, you know, at the top of the letter, they have their address, and then the date.
[43:59.540 --> 44:02.100] [SPEAKER_10]: But right above the date is this code.
[44:02.280 --> 44:10.240] [SPEAKER_10]: It says MAN-1-OFO colon CSU slash CTS CE.
[44:10.500 --> 44:11.580] [SPEAKER_10]: And I want to know what that means.
[44:11.800 --> 44:13.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you probably just gave out a national secret.
[44:13.920 --> 44:14.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe.
[44:14.500 --> 44:14.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, boy.
[44:15.120 --> 44:16.900] [SPEAKER_10]: Write them a letter and see if they respond.
[44:17.020 --> 44:21.800] [SPEAKER_10]: I'll probably get six letters in response, but all delayed by at least three years.
[44:21.920 --> 44:26.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Cut those letters out of the archive, because we'll get in a lot of trouble and we'll have to reveal the sources and all that kind of thing, and we don't want that.
[44:27.200 --> 44:29.740] [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, I just looked this up, the history of podcasting.
[44:29.880 --> 44:33.760] [SPEAKER_06]: And yes, it does seem like the way you're phrasing is more accurate than the way I phrased it.
[44:33.840 --> 44:35.400] [SPEAKER_06]: But there is some element in truth.
[44:35.620 --> 44:42.940] [SPEAKER_06]: The term podcasting was first used in a Guardian article, Audible Revolution Online Radio is Booming, on February 12, 2004.
[44:43.760 --> 44:47.760] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was invented, apparently, by a journalist.
[44:48.240 --> 44:55.460] [SPEAKER_06]: And again, no connection to Apple in its initial use, but obviously referring to something that Apple is involved in.
[44:56.020 --> 44:58.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, 212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[44:59.060 --> 45:01.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take our first listener phone call.
[45:01.600 --> 45:01.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[45:01.980 --> 45:02.420] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[45:02.900 --> 45:03.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, boy.
[45:04.100 --> 45:05.860] [SPEAKER_06]: It was so hard pressing that button, too.
[45:05.920 --> 45:06.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's try this one.
[45:07.100 --> 45:07.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[45:07.700 --> 45:08.200] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[45:09.300 --> 45:09.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[45:10.340 --> 45:10.900] [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Manuel.
[45:11.060 --> 45:11.620] [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, how are you?
[45:11.660 --> 45:12.460] [SPEAKER_03]: It's Bob from Brooklyn.
[45:12.760 --> 45:13.080] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, Bob.
[45:13.140 --> 45:13.460] [SPEAKER_06]: How are you doing?
[45:13.800 --> 45:14.320] [SPEAKER_03]: Fine, thank you.
[45:14.340 --> 45:14.940] [SPEAKER_03]: How are you this evening?
[45:15.220 --> 45:15.900] [SPEAKER_06]: We're just great.
[45:16.080 --> 45:16.800] [SPEAKER_06]: What's on your mind?
[45:17.020 --> 45:21.800] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to discuss a feature at a particular ATM in New York.
[45:21.940 --> 45:22.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[45:23.660 --> 45:28.860] [SPEAKER_03]: Normally, in an ATM, you put in your card, and you type in your PIN number.
[45:30.180 --> 45:36.360] [SPEAKER_03]: And if the next step is ask for balance, the balance is either displayed or printed.
[45:37.020 --> 45:42.200] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, in the same session, if you want to withdraw money, it'll ask you if you want another transaction.
[45:42.200 --> 45:45.860] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you answer yes, what's the next thing it asks you for?
[45:47.300 --> 45:51.020] [SPEAKER_06]: First of all, is this the kind of ATM where your card remains inside it, or you just swipe it?
[45:52.420 --> 45:54.080] [SPEAKER_03]: In this bank's case, either.
[45:54.740 --> 45:54.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[45:55.060 --> 46:01.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, some banks, I think, would ask for your PIN again, but I imagine many don't.
[46:02.380 --> 46:04.480] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I use one that does not.
[46:05.240 --> 46:09.520] [SPEAKER_03]: Every bank I've ever used did, until this one.
[46:10.400 --> 46:14.460] [SPEAKER_03]: This one is Washington Mutual, and I've told them about it.
[46:14.640 --> 46:28.500] [SPEAKER_03]: Even if the card is captured, or if the card is swiped, and you can put it back in your pocket, after you ask for your balance, and want a second transaction, you can get cash out, which means if you walk away, and the next person happens to walk over,
[46:29.400 --> 46:31.560] [SPEAKER_03]: they can get your money.
[46:31.840 --> 46:34.040] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's a Washington Mutual on 8th Street and 2nd Avenue.
[46:34.140 --> 46:42.700] [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of people go there, so I think what I might do is spend some time there, you know, camp out a little while, and just watch people go up to the ATM, check their balance, and then walk away.
[46:42.700 --> 46:45.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you're saying I could just walk with that machine and take money out.
[46:45.420 --> 46:47.180] [SPEAKER_03]: If they don't, close their session.
[46:47.360 --> 46:47.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm.
[46:47.980 --> 46:49.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Which a lot of people don't do.
[46:49.560 --> 46:51.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, but there's...
[46:51.460 --> 46:58.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, there is one, there are one or two branches in Manhattan where they're installing, where they've installed new software, new graphic software.
[46:58.920 --> 47:01.380] [SPEAKER_03]: Currently, their stuff is in character mode and pretty old looking.
[47:01.580 --> 47:05.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, I mean, from the 1980s, I think they've had software that asks you for a password.
[47:05.440 --> 47:07.300] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, no doubt about it, no doubt about it.
[47:07.300 --> 47:13.040] [SPEAKER_03]: But in one of the branches where they've installed the new software, I tried it, and it does ask you.
[47:13.740 --> 47:15.360] [SPEAKER_03]: They've come to their senses in those.
[47:15.740 --> 47:26.700] [SPEAKER_03]: But the one I use today, which is, you know, in Midtown, I ask for my balance, and then it asks me for another transaction, yes, and I check out money without typing in a PIN code.
[47:27.100 --> 47:29.100] [SPEAKER_09]: All right, well, I mean, there are cameras, though.
[47:29.340 --> 47:32.460] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, so this isn't a good idea to camp out there and...
[47:32.460 --> 47:32.600] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, correct.
[47:32.720 --> 47:34.100] [SPEAKER_09]: ...paper bags to put over your head.
[47:34.200 --> 47:35.620] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm not suggesting it.
[47:35.620 --> 47:44.760] [SPEAKER_03]: But my point is, I've gone into the branches and I've discussed this with the account, you know, the reps, but most of them are very junior.
[47:44.960 --> 47:52.560] [SPEAKER_03]: They have this, you know, they don't have regular windows, they have little kiosks, and it's kind of set up in an unusual way.
[47:52.760 --> 47:58.080] [SPEAKER_03]: And I find that a lot of the representatives are very junior and kind of don't get what I want to discuss with them.
[47:58.440 --> 48:04.240] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, you'll find that to be true of many people you try to discuss a security issue with, and they'll, of course, blame you for the problem.
[48:04.240 --> 48:05.760] [SPEAKER_06]: So, listen, thanks for the revelation.
[48:05.900 --> 48:06.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything else?
[48:06.680 --> 48:07.100] [SPEAKER_06]: That's it.
[48:07.300 --> 48:07.560] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[48:07.580 --> 48:07.940] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you very much.
[48:08.040 --> 48:08.460] [SPEAKER_06]: Love you, sir.
[48:08.540 --> 48:08.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Bye-bye.
[48:08.780 --> 48:10.560] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's try and get a few more calls in.
[48:10.860 --> 48:12.340] [SPEAKER_06]: That's exactly the kind of thing, you know.
[48:13.240 --> 48:16.120] [SPEAKER_06]: They want us to reveal who Bob from Brooklyn was, and we couldn't...
[48:16.120 --> 48:19.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure, the police are interrogating every Bob in the entire city of Brooklyn right now.
[48:19.940 --> 48:20.720] [SPEAKER_06]: There's only so many.
[48:21.140 --> 48:21.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[48:21.600 --> 48:22.060] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[48:24.940 --> 48:25.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[48:25.540 --> 48:26.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they hung up.
[48:26.280 --> 48:27.660] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess they got stage fright.
[48:28.080 --> 48:28.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[48:28.520 --> 48:29.000] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[48:29.420 --> 48:29.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, guys.
[48:30.040 --> 48:30.600] [SPEAKER_01]: How are you?
[48:30.720 --> 48:30.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Good.
[48:34.240 --> 48:34.700] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a ham.
[48:34.960 --> 48:35.680] [SPEAKER_01]: Two things.
[48:35.980 --> 48:44.380] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as using your radio in a car to listen to police, federal law preempts state law.
[48:44.560 --> 49:02.900] [SPEAKER_01]: Only if you have a license and a radio to receive up there but cannot transmit up there, you disable a transmitter above 470, you're going to be perfectly legal to have an HT or mobile because hams are involved in races and other kind of emergency communications,
[49:03.220 --> 49:04.600] [SPEAKER_01]: so they're allowed to listen up there.
[49:05.160 --> 49:21.660] [SPEAKER_01]: Number two, I don't know if you heard the situation in Florida, but Florida just passed the law that if you interfere with a commercial broadcasting, even if you have a license and it's by just mistake or just general interference, they can put you in jail and give you a $100,000
[49:21.660 --> 49:22.140] [SPEAKER_01]: fine.
[49:23.440 --> 49:26.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Just for interfering, that could be a pirate radio station then, couldn't it?
[49:26.400 --> 49:26.520] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[49:26.640 --> 49:37.900] [SPEAKER_01]: It could be a pirate radio station who interferes with another station or uses the ham using your amateur radio or other type of device that interferes with a commercial broadcast station.
[49:38.020 --> 49:44.380] [SPEAKER_01]: They can put you in a pokey and that's going to probably go into the courts because that's preempting federal law.
[49:44.380 --> 49:50.340] [SPEAKER_01]: But that started because the FCC allowed local governments to do their job as far as the CB radio.
[49:50.740 --> 49:55.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're on CB with an amplifier, local governments can do what the FCC did not do.
[49:56.660 --> 49:56.920] [SPEAKER_09]: Interesting.
[49:57.220 --> 50:00.700] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, well, to what extent does this apply?
[50:00.860 --> 50:08.480] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, you can be transmitting on amateur radio frequencies and, you know, the receivers and televisions and whatnot can be very poor so that your audio would bleed through.
[50:08.700 --> 50:10.580] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, basically, that's going to be the situation.
[50:10.580 --> 50:21.320] [SPEAKER_01]: If you bleed through, from what the law says and the ARRL has came out that the American Radio Relay League has said this is going to hurt amateur radio and that they were trying to stop it.
[50:21.460 --> 50:25.920] [SPEAKER_01]: But the state of Florida would like to put you in jail and give you a $100,000 fine.
[50:26.100 --> 50:29.540] [SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of home entertainment is not very well shielded.
[50:29.640 --> 50:36.480] [SPEAKER_01]: And even if you're running perfectly legal power and not doing anything wrong, you can interfere with some ladies on radio or TV that's on a pair of remedies.
[50:37.300 --> 50:37.620] [SPEAKER_06]: Interesting.
[50:38.680 --> 50:41.240] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, my calls are WB2HWW.
[50:41.620 --> 50:42.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, good talking to you.
[50:42.620 --> 50:44.420] [SPEAKER_01]: I do have a repeater in the city of New York.
[50:44.820 --> 50:45.200] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[50:45.320 --> 50:46.060] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys want the frequency?
[50:46.900 --> 50:49.660] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you're giving the frequency to the entire world, you know, but go ahead.
[50:49.720 --> 50:50.040] [SPEAKER_01]: That's okay.
[50:50.220 --> 50:51.380] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an open ham radio.
[50:51.500 --> 50:54.340] [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody with an amateur license, 440.7.
[50:54.860 --> 50:55.180] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[50:55.180 --> 50:57.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Up 5 megs with a 114.8 PL.
[50:57.520 --> 50:58.680] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a great evening, guys.
[50:58.900 --> 50:59.080] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks.
[50:59.160 --> 50:59.480] [SPEAKER_05]: Take care.
[50:59.780 --> 50:59.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[51:06.480 --> 51:10.780] [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to be prosecuted for listening to police in your car by a local prosecutor.
[51:11.020 --> 51:16.740] [SPEAKER_08]: They don't give a rat's ass about federal regulations as opposed to federal laws.
[51:16.960 --> 51:18.160] [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to have to appeal that.
[51:18.260 --> 51:20.840] [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to be found guilty, and you're going to have to appeal to a higher court.
[51:21.020 --> 51:23.160] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's just the way it goes.
[51:23.620 --> 51:23.860] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[51:23.940 --> 51:24.540] [SPEAKER_06]: It's taking the phone call.
[51:25.080 --> 51:25.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[51:25.800 --> 51:26.180] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[51:27.280 --> 51:27.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[51:27.940 --> 51:28.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[51:28.400 --> 51:28.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[51:29.000 --> 51:29.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Turn on your radio, please.
[51:29.740 --> 51:38.160] [SPEAKER_04]: A quick question, or a quick question about the national ID card, because I believe that the issue of national ID cards is a red herring.
[51:38.660 --> 51:39.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[51:39.600 --> 51:58.000] [SPEAKER_04]: The data, I don't relish the idea of a national ID card, but I would like there to be an acknowledgement by the government that they are capturing and controlling this data, because right now they are, but it's all under commercial control, and you have very little,
[51:58.180 --> 52:02.700] [SPEAKER_04]: if any, access to or influence over how that data is used.
[52:03.680 --> 52:07.820] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, would this be instead of commercial storing of data?
[52:07.940 --> 52:08.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Would they be prohibited?
[52:09.100 --> 52:09.440] [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[52:09.600 --> 52:14.660] [SPEAKER_04]: What I'm saying is that the data now is captured, and it's being used for commercial purposes.
[52:14.660 --> 52:27.100] [SPEAKER_04]: If there's a national ID card, then there's a certain amount of transparency that we can work for, but that we can't do with commercial entities.
[52:27.420 --> 52:28.140] [SPEAKER_04]: You see what I'm saying?
[52:28.240 --> 52:31.540] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, we can't go to a company and say, tell me what you know about me.
[52:32.080 --> 52:36.580] [SPEAKER_06]: But you're assuming that the government is going to do it right, that the information is going to be accurate.
[52:36.900 --> 52:39.140] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not assuming that the government is going to do it right.
[52:39.140 --> 52:45.660] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying that there's a mechanism for citizen activism, but there's not a mechanism for consumer activism.
[52:45.900 --> 52:51.380] [SPEAKER_04]: We can keep fighting for government transparency, but how do you fight for consumer transparency?
[52:51.660 --> 52:55.300] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the argument sounds good, except for one little thing.
[52:55.460 --> 53:02.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Current commercial databases are not as omniscient as a government database would eventually be.
[53:03.240 --> 53:14.700] [SPEAKER_07]: If you go to something like ZabaSearch or some similar site, you'll see that there are various families of databases that you can look at for various pieces of information.
[53:15.460 --> 53:28.760] [SPEAKER_04]: That's true, but commercial entities are right now being, are civic databases or government databases are being outsourced to commercial entities, and that information's flowing out.
[53:28.840 --> 53:29.820] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't know where it's going.
[53:30.900 --> 53:36.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Florida, Texas, Connecticut are all examples of that, where that's happened in the last two or three years.
[53:36.900 --> 53:37.040] [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[53:37.100 --> 53:44.000] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not a good thing, but I don't think that substituting the federal government or adding them on would make that a good thing either.
[53:44.580 --> 53:52.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think, Jim, that you're really saying that because these corporations are inept, they should be allowed to trample over all our privacy.
[53:52.520 --> 53:53.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
[53:54.700 --> 53:59.220] [SPEAKER_04]: The corporations are inept, and the government is inept, but we can't look at the corporations.
[53:59.820 --> 54:04.160] [SPEAKER_04]: We can't sit in Washington and look at what the government is doing, to a certain extent.
[54:04.320 --> 54:10.920] [SPEAKER_07]: Because we can't look at the corporations, we should then create a Frankenstein monster with the federal government so we can look at him?
[54:11.120 --> 54:12.000] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, no, no.
[54:12.280 --> 54:14.100] [SPEAKER_04]: The monster already exists.
[54:15.280 --> 54:15.940] [SPEAKER_10]: It exists.
[54:16.380 --> 54:32.800] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think the caller supporting the national ID proposal is simply saying, rather sensibly, that these corporations are creating their own system, which is as bad, if not worse, as the federal proposal, because there's absolutely zero accountability.
[54:33.500 --> 54:40.980] [SPEAKER_10]: I think the solution to this is stronger privacy regulations, which exist in some European countries.
[54:40.980 --> 54:47.160] [SPEAKER_10]: They don't exist in the United States because we have this grand tradition of letting corporations do whatever they want.
[54:47.160 --> 54:47.760] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree.
[54:47.920 --> 54:52.180] [SPEAKER_04]: There's an example of Singapore, where companies, U.S.
[54:52.300 --> 55:05.780] [SPEAKER_04]: companies, have been prohibited from selling the technology in this country, but have been selling it to Singapore and I think a couple other Southeast Asia countries that have your entire life on the back of a magnetic strip on your card.
[55:05.940 --> 55:10.980] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're using this because they don't have the privacy regulations that you're talking about.
[55:17.160 --> 55:20.120] [SPEAKER_04]: They're trying to get this back into the gene, back into the bottle.
[55:20.420 --> 55:33.500] [SPEAKER_04]: So if we can fight for privacy laws, if we can keep an eye on this, which is something that we'll never be able to do with commercial entities, then, you know, we at least have to look at it.
[55:33.580 --> 55:42.640] [SPEAKER_04]: Right now, fighting over whether there's going to be a nationally ID card ignores the fact that police still do stop people for no reason and hassle you for no reason.
[55:43.420 --> 55:47.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, unfortunately, we're going to have to bring it to a close there because we're running out of time.
[55:47.780 --> 55:51.300] [SPEAKER_06]: But thanks for bringing this up and offering that perspective on it.
[55:51.480 --> 55:57.080] [SPEAKER_06]: No doubt we'll have plenty to talk about in the weeks ahead as this kind of thing continues to become more and more of a reality.
[55:57.560 --> 56:06.140] [SPEAKER_10]: There are just, by the way, certainly cases where governments have bought commercial information that they have been themselves prohibited from collecting in the United States.
[56:06.620 --> 56:07.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[56:08.120 --> 56:10.460] [SPEAKER_06]: And okay, so that's going to do it for us here tonight.
[56:10.460 --> 56:14.280] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be back again next week with another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
[56:15.360 --> 56:20.020] [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see you next week.
[56:22.980 --> 56:25.920] [SPEAKER_06]: oth@2600.com is our email address.
[56:26.700 --> 56:28.060] [SPEAKER_06]: We'd love to hear from you.
[56:28.660 --> 56:29.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Good night.
[56:35.940 --> 56:58.000] [SPEAKER_12]: Everybody wakes and in the morning Hot tea can't stop yawning What's about to please Have you ever read the Daily Standard?
[56:59.060 --> 57:08.160] [SPEAKER_12]: Reading all about the plane that's landed Up, outside, down
[57:16.420 --> 57:31.130] [SPEAKER_12]: Up, outside, down There can be no other way What I would just like to say
[57:34.270 --> 57:56.210] [SPEAKER_12]: It would be so nice It would be so nice It would be so nice Please don't try It would be so nice It would be so nice
[58:09.410 --> 58:16.270] [SPEAKER_12]: It's about the weather And everybody should.
[58:23.930 --> 58:28.710] [SPEAKER_12]: Everybody lives beneath the ceiling.
[58:29.770 --> 58:37.870] [SPEAKER_12]: Laughing out a dream that sends them feeling to a distant place.
[58:37.870 --> 58:38.730] But
[58:41.920 --> 58:47.140] [SPEAKER_12]: no one knows what I did today.
[58:48.240 --> 58:53.240] [SPEAKER_12]: There can be no other way.
[58:55.960 --> 59:02.440] [SPEAKER_12]: But I would just like to say...
[59:04.490 --> 59:06.750] [SPEAKER_12]: This would be substance.
[59:08.170 --> 59:10.850] [SPEAKER_12]: It would be substance.
[59:11.710 --> 59:13.690] [SPEAKER_12]: Divine drug addiction.
[59:15.330 --> 59:22.110] [SPEAKER_12]: It would be substance.
[59:23.130 --> 59:25.810] [SPEAKER_12]: It would be substance.
[59:26.930 --> 59:31.290] [SPEAKER_12]: It's supply.
[59:48.890 --> 59:51.830] [SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, that was just wonderful.
[59:51.830 --> 59:53.030] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[59:53.190 --> 59:56.250] [SPEAKER_02]: You're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
[59:56.490 --> 59:59.010] [SPEAKER_02]: Stay tuned for the award-winning computer show coming up next.