[00:00.000 --> 00:04.240] [SPEAKER_09]: From Amdabadi Ninja, I'm Benu Alex for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:07.370 --> 00:10.250] [SPEAKER_06]: You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
[00:10.410 --> 00:11.750] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:14.370 --> 00:18.530] [SPEAKER_00]: This is WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:18.710 --> 00:19.530] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is Rev.
[00:19.650 --> 00:20.150] [SPEAKER_00]: Jesse Jackson.
[00:20.430 --> 00:25.550] [SPEAKER_00]: Please call and support WBAI, non-commercial peace and justice radio in New York.
[00:27.630 --> 00:32.410] [SPEAKER_09]: You're listening to 99.5 FM, WBAI New York.
[00:32.650 --> 00:35.910] [SPEAKER_09]: It's 7pm, time for Off The Hook.
[01:41.020 --> 01:42.060] [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[01:42.460 --> 01:44.020] [SPEAKER_09]: The program is Off The Hook.
[01:44.520 --> 01:46.500] [SPEAKER_09]: We're here tonight in the WBAI studios.
[01:46.900 --> 01:48.040] [SPEAKER_09]: This is RedHackt.
[01:48.160 --> 01:49.060] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm joined by Jim.
[01:49.220 --> 01:49.480] [SPEAKER_09]: Hello.
[01:49.900 --> 01:50.200] [SPEAKER_09]: Mike.
[01:50.560 --> 01:50.740] [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[01:50.960 --> 01:51.480] [SPEAKER_09]: Redbird.
[01:51.720 --> 01:52.060] [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[01:52.240 --> 01:52.760] [SPEAKER_09]: And Walter.
[01:53.040 --> 01:53.220] [SPEAKER_09]: Hey.
[01:55.380 --> 01:57.400] [SPEAKER_09]: And on the phone we have Bernie S.
[01:58.180 --> 01:59.580] [SPEAKER_01]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:00.500 --> 02:01.280] [SPEAKER_09]: Hello, Bernie S.
[02:02.020 --> 02:02.360] [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[02:02.360 --> 02:05.940] [SPEAKER_09]: And Emmanuel tonight is in where, Mike?
[02:06.220 --> 02:08.440] [SPEAKER_10]: He is somewhere around the world.
[02:08.440 --> 02:16.160] [SPEAKER_10]: He is continuing his tour of the world, and we are continuing our tour of the world's hold music.
[02:16.440 --> 02:19.720] [SPEAKER_10]: So I guess we should try now to reach him.
[02:20.240 --> 02:30.780] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, the way this works is we just have this toll-free number that we call every week, and we don't know where it will go this week.
[02:31.500 --> 02:32.640] [SPEAKER_10]: What do you mean we don't know?
[02:33.080 --> 02:34.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we don't know.
[02:34.380 --> 02:35.480] [SPEAKER_10]: It could go anywhere in the world.
[02:35.720 --> 02:37.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Hopefully to a place where Emmanuel is.
[02:38.260 --> 02:43.380] [SPEAKER_10]: And we don't seem to have this technology called the dial tone quite nailed down.
[02:43.720 --> 02:51.440] [SPEAKER_03]: So are we supposed to guess based on the assorted electronic beeps and blips that we're going to get when we finally do dial him?
[02:51.460 --> 02:53.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Are we supposed to guess where he is based on that?
[02:53.900 --> 02:55.260] [SPEAKER_10]: I think that's the idea, yes.
[02:55.260 --> 02:55.640] [SPEAKER_10]: Ah.
[02:56.340 --> 02:57.860] [SPEAKER_03]: So, play along at home.
[02:59.040 --> 03:00.540] [SPEAKER_03]: What are we playing for, Johnny?
[03:01.320 --> 03:02.040] [SPEAKER_03]: There we go.
[03:02.720 --> 03:03.780] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Johnny's not here.
[03:04.000 --> 03:05.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Johnny is not here.
[03:08.560 --> 03:11.460] [SPEAKER_03]: But if this was a normal show, we'd be playing for valuable prizes.
[03:18.000 --> 03:18.440] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[03:18.900 --> 03:23.620] [SPEAKER_03]: We put it down so you wouldn't hear the secret dialing code that enables us to get an outside line.
[03:25.040 --> 03:26.260] [SPEAKER_03]: Other codes, too.
[03:26.640 --> 03:26.800] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[03:27.060 --> 03:28.280] [SPEAKER_09]: Your call is being connected.
[03:28.580 --> 03:29.080] [SPEAKER_09]: Please wait.
[03:29.260 --> 03:29.360] [SPEAKER_09]: Ah.
[03:29.380 --> 03:29.960] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a good sign.
[03:30.120 --> 03:30.360] [SPEAKER_09]: Always.
[03:36.400 --> 03:36.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Ah.
[03:36.880 --> 03:37.300] [SPEAKER_10]: It's ringing.
[03:37.860 --> 03:38.680] [SPEAKER_10]: That's an interesting ring.
[03:42.060 --> 03:42.540] [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[03:42.760 --> 03:45.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Could I have 742, please?
[03:45.440 --> 03:45.920] [SPEAKER_06]: 742.
[03:46.340 --> 03:46.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[03:46.560 --> 03:46.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[03:46.960 --> 03:47.320] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[03:47.800 --> 03:48.680] [SPEAKER_06]: You have come.
[04:02.580 --> 04:03.540] [SPEAKER_01]: Name that tune.
[04:06.140 --> 04:06.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[04:06.920 --> 04:07.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[04:08.180 --> 04:08.780] [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing?
[04:08.980 --> 04:09.500] [SPEAKER_10]: We're well.
[04:09.600 --> 04:09.980] [SPEAKER_10]: How are you?
[04:10.780 --> 04:11.400] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm good.
[04:11.500 --> 04:11.680] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm good.
[04:11.820 --> 04:13.240] [SPEAKER_07]: It's 7 o'clock in the morning here.
[04:13.480 --> 04:14.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Where is here?
[04:14.720 --> 04:16.360] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm in Beijing right now.
[04:16.480 --> 04:16.760] [SPEAKER_10]: Ah.
[04:17.060 --> 04:20.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And for some reason, the entire country is on the same time.
[04:20.360 --> 04:21.100] [SPEAKER_07]: So, I actually...
[04:21.100 --> 04:25.280] [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually an hour earlier than it was last week, even though I'm further to the east.
[04:25.480 --> 04:26.480] [SPEAKER_07]: So, go figure.
[04:27.580 --> 04:28.460] [SPEAKER_10]: I will figure.
[04:29.140 --> 04:29.580] [SPEAKER_10]: How...
[04:29.580 --> 04:31.380] [SPEAKER_10]: What brings you to Beijing?
[04:31.380 --> 04:34.360] [SPEAKER_10]: Where have you been since we last spoke?
[04:34.620 --> 04:38.180] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the Trans-Mongolian Express brought me here from Ulaanbaatar.
[04:39.020 --> 04:57.760] [SPEAKER_07]: And the difference couldn't be more stark as far as being in a country that most people would think is in the middle of nowhere, and then winding up in a place like Beijing, which is much more cosmopolitan than I ever thought, much more westernized.
[04:58.460 --> 05:00.360] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's a fascinating place.
[05:00.360 --> 05:03.660] [SPEAKER_07]: It's just so huge and big and stretches on forever.
[05:04.480 --> 05:05.820] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's just...
[05:07.140 --> 05:08.660] [SPEAKER_07]: There's all kinds of people here.
[05:08.660 --> 05:10.940] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's really a very busy place.
[05:12.340 --> 05:15.620] [SPEAKER_10]: What are some of the things that you've seen thus far?
[05:15.960 --> 05:17.960] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, let's see.
[05:19.060 --> 05:20.600] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know where to begin.
[05:21.240 --> 05:25.620] [SPEAKER_07]: The Forbidden City, of course, is the main focal point.
[05:25.720 --> 05:35.600] [SPEAKER_07]: You kind of walk by and you're just struck by this amazingly huge portrait of Chairman Mao, just there in the middle of this plaza across the street from Tiananmen Square.
[05:36.700 --> 05:48.100] [SPEAKER_07]: And then you walk a few more blocks and you're in this crazy market where they're selling grasshoppers on a stick and all kinds of weird food items and people are running after you.
[05:48.300 --> 05:56.100] [SPEAKER_07]: The thing is, everybody always says hello when they see you because they see Westerner and they figure, you know, speaks English and has money and will buy something.
[05:56.160 --> 05:57.440] [SPEAKER_07]: And they're pretty aggressive.
[05:57.440 --> 06:04.780] [SPEAKER_07]: If you walk into a store and look at something, you'll be crowded by people who are trying to sell you whatever it is they have there.
[06:05.360 --> 06:09.000] [SPEAKER_07]: So you can't just do window shopping or browsing or anything like that.
[06:09.040 --> 06:13.140] [SPEAKER_07]: You pretty much have to have a line of defense already to put into play.
[06:14.000 --> 06:14.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Hmm.
[06:14.480 --> 06:17.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Have you been forced into any unwanted purchases?
[06:18.080 --> 06:18.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[06:18.760 --> 06:19.040] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[06:19.140 --> 06:25.620] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, I'd rather not talk about that because there's some things that I'm not exactly proud of.
[06:25.620 --> 06:30.180] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, the flip side to that is that everything is very, very cheap.
[06:31.640 --> 06:36.900] [SPEAKER_07]: You can have a whole lot of food for about $10, you know.
[06:37.180 --> 06:38.460] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you know, a lot.
[06:39.140 --> 06:47.820] [SPEAKER_07]: You can buy something in a store and it'll just cost you like a couple of dollars for something that's, you know, probably cost you about $20 back home.
[06:49.060 --> 06:49.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Hmm.
[06:50.720 --> 06:51.760] [SPEAKER_10]: How about the Internet?
[06:52.000 --> 06:53.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Do they have that in China?
[06:54.480 --> 06:56.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yes, they certainly do.
[06:56.380 --> 06:58.220] [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, I was really surprised.
[06:58.760 --> 07:04.000] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm staying in a hotel here and they have the Internet on one floor.
[07:04.140 --> 07:08.140] [SPEAKER_07]: I happened to wind up on that floor and I saw the...
[07:08.540 --> 07:10.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, let me walk over to the other side of the room.
[07:10.940 --> 07:15.980] [SPEAKER_07]: The phone won't extend, but I'll bring you the little Internet card that, you know, that explains it.
[07:16.100 --> 07:17.440] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'll also get my computer, too.
[07:18.340 --> 07:18.820] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[07:18.940 --> 07:19.440] [SPEAKER_07]: Please hang on.
[07:20.060 --> 07:21.600] [SPEAKER_10]: We will do just that.
[07:21.860 --> 07:23.020] [SPEAKER_10]: An Internet card?
[07:23.180 --> 07:24.480] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't really know what that means.
[07:25.620 --> 07:26.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Probably just something.
[07:27.420 --> 07:32.600] [SPEAKER_01]: We might want to ask what television viewing options he might have there in his hotel room.
[07:33.560 --> 07:34.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[07:34.380 --> 07:34.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Ah.
[07:35.220 --> 07:38.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we have two questions that we formulated in your absence.
[07:39.120 --> 07:40.080] [SPEAKER_07]: One is...
[07:40.080 --> 07:41.200] [SPEAKER_07]: I brought the wrong thing.
[07:41.260 --> 07:41.480] [SPEAKER_07]: Hold on.
[07:41.520 --> 07:41.960] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll be right back.
[07:42.120 --> 07:42.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[07:43.020 --> 07:44.900] [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe we can formulate more questions.
[07:45.020 --> 07:47.660] [SPEAKER_07]: What I really want to know is what he's not proud of bombing.
[07:47.660 --> 07:48.260] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I'm really back.
[07:48.680 --> 07:49.080] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[07:49.120 --> 07:52.040] [SPEAKER_10]: We have three questions now formulated in your absence.
[07:52.340 --> 07:52.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[07:52.720 --> 07:53.520] [SPEAKER_07]: I won't leave again.
[07:54.140 --> 07:56.180] [SPEAKER_10]: One is, what is an Internet card?
[07:57.040 --> 07:57.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, no.
[07:57.660 --> 07:58.360] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not...
[07:58.360 --> 07:58.920] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[07:59.420 --> 08:01.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Not the Internet card like I had in Mongolia.
[08:01.520 --> 08:03.900] [SPEAKER_07]: That was a bit of a scam, actually.
[08:04.640 --> 08:09.920] [SPEAKER_07]: I had to get an Internet card to use the Internet to dial up, and I got connected at a whopping 28.8.
[08:10.140 --> 08:15.580] [SPEAKER_07]: But then the place I was staying at also charged me per minute, so I wound up paying a pretty hefty price.
[08:15.820 --> 08:20.620] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, not that expensive compared to what I would pay somewhere else, but still, you know, more than I thought.
[08:21.160 --> 08:29.140] [SPEAKER_07]: In this particular case, what I meant by card was something that they have a little piece of paper standing up on the table when you walk into the room.
[08:29.140 --> 08:37.280] [SPEAKER_07]: And it reads as follows, Internet service, welcome to the broadband network service of this particular hotel.
[08:38.220 --> 08:39.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Click the Internet browser.
[08:41.740 --> 08:44.200] [SPEAKER_07]: The login dialog box will appear.
[08:44.400 --> 08:46.860] [SPEAKER_07]: Input your username and password, same as your room number.
[08:48.100 --> 08:50.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Then you can enter to the Internet.
[08:50.720 --> 08:55.360] [SPEAKER_07]: Please click the cover-up dialog box at the low end of screen for exit.
[08:55.360 --> 08:58.960] [SPEAKER_07]: The minimum charge is 20 RMB.
[08:59.540 --> 09:03.100] [SPEAKER_07]: That's about $2.
[09:04.160 --> 09:13.400] [SPEAKER_07]: Every minute exceeding 30 minutes will be charged for 0.5 RMB per minute additionally, so do the math on that.
[09:14.600 --> 09:15.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Please...
[09:16.020 --> 09:18.120] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's awfully hard to read this in the light.
[09:19.940 --> 09:29.680] [SPEAKER_07]: Please don't browse or download any content from those websites violating relevant regulations of PRC, People's Republic of China.
[09:29.800 --> 09:32.320] [SPEAKER_09]: Now, what happens if you put in someone else's room number?
[09:33.540 --> 09:36.220] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I'm trying not to get in trouble here.
[09:36.800 --> 09:48.240] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I can tell you what I think happens, because I put my room number in before I went downstairs and gave them 201, it just basically says that user name doesn't exist.
[09:48.600 --> 09:57.360] [SPEAKER_07]: I do know that if you plug another computer in, because we tried this, plug another computer into my connection, it said the MAC address doesn't match.
[09:57.860 --> 09:59.440] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so you register the MAC address?
[10:00.120 --> 10:03.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it was registered for me, I guess, as soon as I plugged it in.
[10:04.020 --> 10:05.660] [SPEAKER_08]: When you log in, yeah, probably.
[10:05.940 --> 10:07.420] [SPEAKER_08]: Since it's on the local network, you can see it.
[10:07.420 --> 10:13.240] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, have you noticed that any sites are blocked, or any subnets are blocked?
[10:13.480 --> 10:19.180] [SPEAKER_07]: The only site I've found so far that's blocked is BBC, and that's blocked pretty consistently.
[10:19.380 --> 10:20.980] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you know, I've gotten around it.
[10:21.340 --> 10:35.520] [SPEAKER_07]: I won't get into that so much, but the point is, when they block something, what happens is it just doesn't resolve, it just sort of hangs there, and it says there's no response, when, you know, obviously there is a response.
[10:35.520 --> 10:37.980] [SPEAKER_07]: But nothing else that I've been able to find anywhere.
[10:38.080 --> 10:43.980] [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, I haven't been going on a real hunt for the most, you know, offensive sites possible.
[10:44.360 --> 10:55.300] [SPEAKER_07]: But things like the New York Times, things like certainly 2600, things like, you know, any other news site I could think of, they seem to go through just fine.
[10:55.500 --> 10:58.960] [SPEAKER_09]: Now, when you say it didn't resolve, the domain didn't resolve?
[10:59.140 --> 11:01.640] [SPEAKER_09]: If you plugged in the IP address, would the site be accessible?
[11:01.980 --> 11:04.940] [SPEAKER_07]: I plugged in the IP address, and it just sat there.
[11:04.940 --> 11:06.740] [SPEAKER_07]: So, they just sat there.
[11:06.920 --> 11:07.240] [SPEAKER_07]: Don't route it.
[11:07.700 --> 11:24.200] [SPEAKER_07]: I think what happened, if I recall correctly, when I put in the actual BBC site, it said something like connecting to, transferring data from, and then it just sort of hung there, and nothing happened, and then eventually said there's been no response.
[11:25.380 --> 11:29.000] [SPEAKER_10]: Are you violating applicable laws of the PRC?
[11:30.220 --> 11:35.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, you know, you can't find out something's blocked if you don't try to get there.
[11:35.520 --> 11:38.780] [SPEAKER_07]: So, now that I know that it's blocked, well, I won't try to get there.
[11:38.940 --> 11:40.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you should just not try.
[11:40.640 --> 11:42.420] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, it's pretty clear what you have to do.
[11:42.680 --> 11:43.980] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'm not trying.
[11:44.140 --> 11:44.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not trying at all.
[11:45.120 --> 11:46.380] [SPEAKER_07]: At the very moment, I'm not trying.
[11:46.840 --> 11:48.740] [SPEAKER_09]: How is the throughput to the rest of the world?
[11:48.740 --> 11:53.040] [SPEAKER_09]: What speed do you get, say, you know, uploading off the wall or something like that?
[11:53.300 --> 12:00.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, I didn't know this was going to be the most fascinating part of being in China, but it's actually quite fast.
[12:00.880 --> 12:01.820] [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually very fast.
[12:02.360 --> 12:04.800] [SPEAKER_07]: It's the best connection I've had since I left New York.
[12:04.840 --> 12:05.400] [SPEAKER_07]: How about that?
[12:06.180 --> 12:10.260] [SPEAKER_07]: I got 140K a second yesterday uploading something.
[12:10.820 --> 12:13.060] [SPEAKER_10]: The what-the-hack organizers are going to be upset.
[12:13.780 --> 12:19.080] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, you know, that was a camp field in the middle of Holland with all sorts of competition.
[12:19.140 --> 12:20.340] [SPEAKER_07]: This is a hotel.
[12:22.020 --> 12:24.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And let me talk about TV a little bit, though.
[12:24.340 --> 12:25.700] [SPEAKER_07]: That's kind of interesting.
[12:26.240 --> 12:30.260] [SPEAKER_07]: There are absolutely no Western channels, which is a bit of a relief for me.
[12:30.900 --> 12:46.220] [SPEAKER_07]: But the only things that are available on this particular TV show, which I suspect is not cable, I think it's getting everything from over the air, are basically state television, CCTV, and that's one through, I think, 12.
[12:46.280 --> 12:47.700] [SPEAKER_07]: There's 12 state channels.
[12:47.700 --> 12:54.120] [SPEAKER_07]: And there are a couple of other ones, too, that are also CCTV, but the character after the bug is in Chinese.
[12:54.300 --> 12:55.460] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what exactly that means.
[12:55.820 --> 13:03.840] [SPEAKER_07]: And then there are a couple of other Beijing-type channels and regional broadcasters, I assume all of which are state-approved.
[13:03.980 --> 13:05.340] [SPEAKER_07]: So that's pretty much it.
[13:05.340 --> 13:06.240] [SPEAKER_07]: Not a whole lot of variety.
[13:06.340 --> 13:11.420] [SPEAKER_07]: There's one channel, CCTV 9, which you can actually get in New York on Time Warner Cable.
[13:12.860 --> 13:15.040] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's pretty much in English.
[13:15.860 --> 13:22.140] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a news channel, but it's really, you know, it's more a propaganda channel as far as what kinds of things are aired.
[13:23.140 --> 13:25.940] [SPEAKER_07]: And you won't find very much in the way of world news.
[13:26.120 --> 13:29.320] [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, I'm kind of out of it as far as that goes.
[13:29.380 --> 13:33.360] [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, I can always look on the Internet and find out what's going on from an American perspective.
[13:33.360 --> 13:38.960] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, flipping through the TV stations, you just see a lot of the same kind of programs.
[13:38.960 --> 13:47.000] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, a lot of singing and a lot of weird little game shows and documentaries, really dry stuff there.
[13:48.980 --> 13:54.620] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, when you're in a foreign country, I guess you should experience things the way the natives experience it.
[13:54.700 --> 13:56.580] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's what TV is like for them.
[13:56.920 --> 14:00.940] [SPEAKER_08]: Have you ever been able to experiment with any radio there, shortwave or AMFN?
[14:00.940 --> 14:07.840] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I'm glad you reminded me of that, because I do have your iRiver, and your iRiver is able to pick up FM, so I'm going to try that.
[14:08.100 --> 14:09.620] [SPEAKER_07]: I haven't had a chance to do that yet.
[14:10.720 --> 14:15.020] [SPEAKER_07]: As for AM, no, I don't have a means of doing that, but I can certainly ask around.
[14:15.220 --> 14:16.360] [SPEAKER_07]: It'd be interesting to...
[14:16.360 --> 14:16.860] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, go ahead.
[14:17.140 --> 14:17.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[14:17.860 --> 14:35.000] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as TV goes, it's illegal under Chinese regulations for the average Chinese person to receive and watch BBC, World Service, CNN, and HBO, and a bunch of other Western channels.
[14:35.940 --> 14:40.840] [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, that's widely violated by people with satellite dishes.
[14:42.040 --> 14:54.460] [SPEAKER_01]: And apparently, there's a regulation that broadcasts that are sent to cable television companies in China, or to their head ends, which are then distributed to the public.
[14:54.660 --> 15:02.580] [SPEAKER_01]: All that programming must be routed through a state-run company called the China International Television Corporation.
[15:02.900 --> 15:07.800] [SPEAKER_01]: So apparently, the great firewall extends beyond the Internet to television programming.
[15:08.600 --> 15:09.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, do you have...
[15:09.740 --> 15:18.320] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, I kind of wonder, how different is that from in the United States, where we literally have no international news coverage coming into the States?
[15:18.320 --> 15:21.480] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we're allowed to, but nobody brings it in.
[15:21.600 --> 15:27.940] [SPEAKER_07]: No company that runs the systems that we're forced to buy will bring in something from another country.
[15:27.940 --> 15:29.180] [SPEAKER_07]: So the effect is the same.
[15:29.280 --> 15:30.760] [SPEAKER_07]: The people remain isolated.
[15:31.080 --> 15:40.420] [SPEAKER_01]: It is, with the exception of people here who are permitted to set up free-to-air satellite receivers and watch...
[15:40.420 --> 15:50.780] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a couple years ago, I was watching live Iraqi television from a Holiday Inn near Philadelphia, but I don't think I would have been allowed to do that in China.
[15:51.140 --> 15:53.580] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a legal thing, but you're right.
[15:54.020 --> 15:57.760] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a commercial firewall that we have to suffer through here in the U.S.
[15:58.500 --> 15:59.680] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's a good point.
[15:59.800 --> 16:07.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I'd like to be able to tell people exactly how they can set up free-to-air satellite, because there are quite a few interesting things there.
[16:07.420 --> 16:11.660] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not as user-friendly as, say, getting DirecTV or Dish Network or something like that.
[16:11.660 --> 16:17.240] [SPEAKER_07]: But if you have free-to-air, yeah, you can tie into all kinds of weird things throughout the globe.
[16:17.520 --> 16:20.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Is there a simple way for people to get started on this?
[16:21.460 --> 16:31.660] [SPEAKER_01]: If you just plug in free-to-air satellite television or some portion of those words into a web search engine, I'm sure you'll find tons of information about it.
[16:31.720 --> 16:37.880] [SPEAKER_01]: You can literally set up a free-to-air Earth station on your own house for about $300.
[16:39.460 --> 16:41.180] [SPEAKER_07]: Keep in mind, though, it'll be a big dish.
[16:41.840 --> 16:46.480] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, this is like a less-than-one-meter dish.
[16:47.160 --> 16:48.820] [SPEAKER_07]: Less-than-one-meter, you can get free-to-air.
[16:49.040 --> 16:52.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I was always under the impression it had to be at least three feet or three meters or something.
[16:53.160 --> 16:55.860] [SPEAKER_01]: I was watching Iraqi television with a one-meter dish.
[16:57.380 --> 16:59.960] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, well, could you watch anything else besides Iraqi television?
[17:00.240 --> 17:04.820] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, besides that, I was watching a camel races out of Dubai.
[17:06.860 --> 17:09.320] [SPEAKER_01]: And, let's see, there are a bunch of other countries.
[17:09.320 --> 17:10.140] [SPEAKER_01]: This was a while ago.
[17:10.220 --> 17:11.160] [SPEAKER_01]: A friend of mine set it up.
[17:11.280 --> 17:12.720] [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't need a large dish.
[17:13.320 --> 17:16.700] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, well, can you get BBC World on that system?
[17:17.240 --> 17:18.100] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good question.
[17:18.100 --> 17:18.920] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[17:19.060 --> 17:21.180] [SPEAKER_01]: But I can answer that question next week.
[17:21.360 --> 17:25.340] [SPEAKER_08]: What about a more traditional means, such as getting BBC via shortwave?
[17:26.480 --> 17:27.680] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, that's not television.
[17:28.080 --> 17:31.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're talking about BBC World, which is a television news service.
[17:31.300 --> 17:40.340] [SPEAKER_01]: But BBC shortwave is probably no longer jammed in China, as it once was, and also in Eastern Europe.
[17:40.980 --> 17:43.540] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, there's not a lot of shortwave jamming going on anymore.
[17:43.740 --> 17:48.180] [SPEAKER_01]: But then again, there's less shortwave broadcasting going on than there used to as well, unfortunately.
[17:49.360 --> 18:06.260] [SPEAKER_07]: What's interesting is that if you go into a bookstore here, or we went to this amazing bookstore, or it just went on and on, I think about eight floors, you'll find all kinds of English language instruction, like tapes and CDs and computer programs.
[18:06.500 --> 18:10.720] [SPEAKER_07]: And it seems like the emphasis on learning English is very, very high here.
[18:11.240 --> 18:17.500] [SPEAKER_07]: And, ironically, a lot of the programs come from sources such as BBC, Voice of America.
[18:18.480 --> 18:22.920] [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, I got a CD of some special English newscasts.
[18:22.920 --> 18:23.600] [SPEAKER_10]: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
[18:23.600 --> 18:24.000] [SPEAKER_07]: It'll be a lot of fun.
[18:24.160 --> 18:27.340] [SPEAKER_10]: You're an American, and you have a Voice of America material?
[18:27.840 --> 18:28.660] [SPEAKER_07]: I do now, yeah.
[18:28.660 --> 18:30.080] [SPEAKER_10]: You can't listen to that?
[18:30.940 --> 18:32.980] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I don't really intend to listen.
[18:33.100 --> 18:34.000] [SPEAKER_07]: I just intend to play it.
[18:36.220 --> 18:40.660] [SPEAKER_07]: But it basically is in special English, which is that slow kind of English.
[18:40.660 --> 18:49.740] [SPEAKER_07]: But the amazing thing about this is that one of the features is Bush explaining the Iraqi elections.
[18:50.100 --> 18:54.060] [SPEAKER_07]: And I just want to hear that in special English, where they go extra slow.
[18:54.660 --> 19:00.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Using Bush speeches as a way to teach English, I think, is just the most inane thing ever devised.
[19:00.980 --> 19:02.920] [SPEAKER_07]: But we'll see how that translates.
[19:03.140 --> 19:06.560] [SPEAKER_09]: Tell us if they make any corrections to the actual language.
[19:07.720 --> 19:11.100] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm simply amazed, though, at the friendliness of people here.
[19:11.240 --> 19:12.600] [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't expect it to be so open.
[19:13.160 --> 19:15.600] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it is Beijing, after all.
[19:15.700 --> 19:22.640] [SPEAKER_07]: I thought it would be a lot more, I don't know, kind of oppressive, kind of, you know, a lot of rules.
[19:22.880 --> 19:33.640] [SPEAKER_07]: More like Russia, you know, where everything is like somebody yelling at you and taking your passport and monitoring everything you do and writing things down and waiting on interminable lines.
[19:33.860 --> 19:35.020] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not like that at all here.
[19:35.020 --> 19:37.580] [SPEAKER_07]: It's very laid-back and easy-going.
[19:38.160 --> 19:42.720] [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, this is Beijing, and I haven't been to the rest of the country yet.
[19:43.340 --> 19:45.760] [SPEAKER_07]: And really, the only other part of the country I'll be in is Shanghai.
[19:46.540 --> 19:48.640] [SPEAKER_07]: So it's not really a fair test.
[19:48.680 --> 19:57.960] [SPEAKER_07]: But it is fascinating to know that I am in the biggest communist country in the world, and yet I'm in the middle of one of the biggest capitalist-like cities in the world.
[19:58.600 --> 19:59.000] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[19:59.120 --> 20:03.940] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I mean, it could be like a showtown, and the rest of China might be nothing like it.
[20:03.940 --> 20:06.480] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's one hell of a show, I'll tell you that.
[20:08.320 --> 20:08.780] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[20:08.940 --> 20:11.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Do you have anything more, or shall we move to the news?
[20:11.960 --> 20:16.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, let's move to the news, because I'm sure there are interesting things here and there.
[20:16.900 --> 20:19.380] [SPEAKER_10]: There are interesting things everywhere.
[20:19.780 --> 20:27.140] [SPEAKER_10]: One bit of news, this is from the New York Times, is that cellphoners are upbeat on calling from below.
[20:28.360 --> 20:35.440] [SPEAKER_10]: There's an article here by Jennifer Ait Lee, who we've discussed her work before.
[20:36.040 --> 20:37.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Still using the Ait, huh?
[20:37.200 --> 20:38.460] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's her name.
[20:40.240 --> 20:49.680] [SPEAKER_10]: And apparently, New York City is going to get, in some subway stations, you're now going to be able to make calls on your telephone.
[20:49.680 --> 20:52.480] [SPEAKER_10]: So the New York Times wrote an article about this.
[20:52.760 --> 21:02.700] [SPEAKER_10]: They also wrote another article, only slightly longer, about why they're doing this, and this is that will allegedly enhance security.
[21:03.440 --> 21:19.720] [SPEAKER_10]: Lockheed Martin is getting a three-year contract of $212 million, where they're going to install all these cameras and all this stuff all over the subway system, and I guess we'll be more secure as a result.
[21:20.140 --> 21:22.880] [SPEAKER_09]: And who's installing the cell phone equipment?
[21:23.860 --> 21:24.900] [SPEAKER_10]: It's undecided.
[21:25.100 --> 21:25.800] [SPEAKER_10]: It's undecided.
[21:26.280 --> 21:27.800] [SPEAKER_09]: Is this their expanding it?
[21:27.840 --> 21:34.440] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I do know in some stations you do get cell phone coverage, or is that just a coincidence that you might be near a receiver, a transmitter?
[21:34.700 --> 21:35.860] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just coincidence.
[21:36.180 --> 21:36.340] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[21:36.800 --> 21:40.140] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, one place where it's not coincidence is Penn Station.
[21:40.140 --> 21:43.720] [SPEAKER_07]: If you go all the way down to the bottom, you'll get perfect cell coverage there.
[21:43.900 --> 21:50.960] [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, I even use my cell phone on a train that went from Penn Station to Woodside through the tunnel.
[21:51.020 --> 21:55.480] [SPEAKER_07]: So it's not hard for them to do this, as it's done in many other cities as well.
[21:56.420 --> 21:58.820] [SPEAKER_07]: I know in Berlin they do this.
[21:58.820 --> 22:05.440] [SPEAKER_07]: A couple of other cities I've been in, I think Moscow even, there are parts of Moscow where you can talk on the cell phone.
[22:05.620 --> 22:07.480] [SPEAKER_07]: The trouble is with Moscow, the trains are kind of loud.
[22:08.100 --> 22:09.420] [SPEAKER_07]: New York City, I can't see that.
[22:09.520 --> 22:15.660] [SPEAKER_07]: If they make the phones work on the trains, I don't see how anyone will be able to hear anybody because of how loud they are.
[22:15.880 --> 22:17.900] [SPEAKER_07]: So I think that's the reason number one.
[22:18.920 --> 22:33.080] [SPEAKER_07]: As far as why they're doing this, they say they're abandoning their early reservations about cell phone coverage and they agree that the benefits of allowing 911 and other calls during emergencies outweigh the potential costs and risks.
[22:33.180 --> 22:35.440] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not sure what kind of risk they're talking about here.
[22:35.600 --> 22:38.000] [SPEAKER_10]: The risk of a phone detonated bomb.
[22:38.000 --> 22:44.820] [SPEAKER_09]: Right, they'll have to install those devices we talked about one or two weeks ago to intercept cell phones to make sure they don't explode.
[22:45.660 --> 22:46.720] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, here's the thing.
[22:48.100 --> 22:50.260] [SPEAKER_07]: The bids have to be in by October 12th.
[22:50.880 --> 22:55.860] [SPEAKER_07]: The winning bid will get a 10-year license, but they'd have to pay for the installation of the wireless network.
[22:56.020 --> 23:01.700] [SPEAKER_07]: And this is the funny part, they'd be required to disable all calls at the authority's request.
[23:03.120 --> 23:10.680] [SPEAKER_07]: So they have this little provision in there saying, okay, turn everybody off because somebody's being bad or something, or we suspect someone's going to use a cell phone to detonate a bomb.
[23:10.680 --> 23:15.120] [SPEAKER_07]: They just found out that the people in London detonated the bombs by hand.
[23:15.560 --> 23:18.000] [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, what are they going to do?
[23:19.220 --> 23:20.420] [SPEAKER_10]: The answer is clear.
[23:20.660 --> 23:22.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they have to forbid hands from the subway.
[23:23.120 --> 23:34.120] [SPEAKER_01]: And the ones in Spain, in Barcelona, were detonated by cell phones, but with cell phones used as timers, not as you call the phone and then it blows up kind of thing.
[23:34.300 --> 23:40.080] [SPEAKER_01]: So shutting down the phone system is really pointless and stupid.
[23:40.080 --> 23:41.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Again, the answer is clear.
[23:41.740 --> 23:44.140] [SPEAKER_10]: We have to ban time from this train system.
[23:45.340 --> 23:49.280] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, the cell phones are only one small part of this thing.
[23:49.600 --> 23:55.320] [SPEAKER_07]: What they announced this week with Lockheed Martin, I think the really interesting bits are the surveillance cameras.
[23:55.420 --> 23:56.340] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you have anything on those?
[23:56.900 --> 24:04.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yeah, we were discussing these cameras can go for 300 feet, which is pretty far for a camera.
[24:04.580 --> 24:22.620] [SPEAKER_10]: They're going to be able to zoom, pivot, and rotate, all the while transmitting and recording images of vulnerable areas, so they say, which include dark tunnels under the East River and bustling subway platforms in Midtown.
[24:23.420 --> 24:26.220] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's supposed to be 1,000 of these cameras, isn't there?
[24:26.740 --> 24:28.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, 1,000 video cameras.
[24:28.740 --> 24:31.080] [SPEAKER_07]: And they cost $1,200 each, do the math.
[24:31.660 --> 24:35.800] [SPEAKER_10]: And that is only a million dollars.
[24:36.140 --> 24:39.080] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know where the other $211 million are going.
[24:39.360 --> 24:39.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Installation.
[24:41.440 --> 24:43.100] [SPEAKER_07]: And a little graph, too, why not?
[24:44.060 --> 24:47.220] [SPEAKER_08]: But, again, this is only going to help after the fact.
[24:47.220 --> 24:50.900] [SPEAKER_08]: If something happens, they'll have possible footage.
[24:51.100 --> 24:51.420] [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[24:51.660 --> 24:54.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, explain to me how this could actually prevent something from happening.
[24:54.640 --> 25:02.820] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, according to the demonstration that Lockheed Martin gave, which was, of course, computer graphics enhanced rather than a real system.
[25:02.980 --> 25:04.780] [SPEAKER_10]: That probably cost a million dollars right there.
[25:08.640 --> 25:19.140] [SPEAKER_03]: These video cameras would be linked to a computer, which would essentially pick up objects, people, packages, whatever, and follow them along.
[25:19.140 --> 25:25.460] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they suddenly stopped moving, it would alert after a few seconds of non-movement.
[25:25.460 --> 25:44.800] [SPEAKER_03]: Or if a package and person were moving together, and part of this object veered off, in other words, the person left the package behind, it would, after a few seconds, alert the people who would supposedly be watching this, or able to watch this, that on a certain platform,
[25:44.800 --> 25:49.940] [SPEAKER_03]: under the view of camera, whatever number it is, there was now a suspicious item.
[25:50.080 --> 25:54.340] [SPEAKER_03]: And you could bring up the tape, you could bring up the live feed, you could see what was going on.
[25:54.460 --> 25:57.560] [SPEAKER_09]: And if it were a crowded Times Square platform where nothing was moving?
[25:57.720 --> 26:07.100] [SPEAKER_03]: Or where nothing was visible, where somebody was carrying their briefcase at knee level, and casually left it right next to a bench?
[26:07.100 --> 26:09.160] [SPEAKER_03]: No, you'd be doomed then, of course.
[26:09.340 --> 26:15.540] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, but regardless, the problem these days has been suicide bombers, and there's no way these cameras could prevent someone from detonating a bomb.
[26:15.780 --> 26:16.000] [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[26:16.000 --> 26:23.920] [SPEAKER_03]: It would look just like a person, because, gee, that's what the suicide bomber looks like, a bulky, perhaps, person, who suddenly goes kaboom.
[26:24.760 --> 26:34.720] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you would be able to see who that person was, like they did in London, where they were able to get us pictures of these people as they were traveling together on their way to detonate their respective bombs.
[26:34.940 --> 26:40.600] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm a little hard-pressed to find what's obviously wrong with this.
[26:40.800 --> 26:43.320] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, is this an invasion of our privacy?
[26:43.320 --> 26:45.260] [SPEAKER_07]: Is this a big waste of money?
[26:45.400 --> 26:47.520] [SPEAKER_07]: What is the main objection to a system like this?
[26:47.600 --> 26:50.080] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, this is still all being done under false pretenses.
[26:50.260 --> 26:53.480] [SPEAKER_08]: It's saying that it's going to make the subway system more secure, which is not accurate.
[26:53.620 --> 26:57.340] [SPEAKER_08]: If it's not preventing these attacks, then it's not making it more secure.
[26:57.440 --> 27:01.600] [SPEAKER_08]: It may aid in the investigation afterwards, but that still doesn't make the subway more secure.
[27:02.220 --> 27:02.660] [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[27:03.080 --> 27:11.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, if you can't make the subway more secure, is making the investigation more productive, is that a bad thing, using these kinds of cameras?
[27:11.280 --> 27:12.720] [SPEAKER_09]: Who are you going to prosecute?
[27:12.840 --> 27:13.600] [SPEAKER_09]: They all went kaboom.
[27:14.100 --> 27:15.000] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's not...
[27:15.000 --> 27:16.660] [SPEAKER_07]: We shouldn't know who they were?
[27:16.840 --> 27:21.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but still, it's still being done under false pretenses.
[27:21.740 --> 27:22.940] [SPEAKER_03]: It's an entirely different question.
[27:23.080 --> 27:23.920] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not being investigated.
[27:25.760 --> 27:27.500] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, then let's correct their pretenses.
[27:27.680 --> 27:39.460] [SPEAKER_07]: But once we do that, what I'm asking is, since most people support this, they really do, in fact, most people who are polled support London's shoot-to-kill policy in the subway system, which I think is insane.
[27:40.200 --> 27:42.600] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, most people are not the ones being shot.
[27:43.160 --> 27:49.540] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, I imagine the question would be a little different, though the answer would be a little different if I was asked if shooting you was acceptable.
[27:50.300 --> 28:05.880] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, since most people probably will come out in favor of having this under the guise that it will, you know, not make you more secure before you get on the subway, but at least know what's going on and know what happened if something does occur,
[28:06.600 --> 28:08.900] [SPEAKER_07]: how do you argue against something like this?
[28:09.860 --> 28:21.300] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I would like to turn everyone's attention, not at the moment, but for background on this, to Bruce Schneier and his Cryptome newsletter.
[28:21.640 --> 28:26.900] [SPEAKER_03]: The name is S-C-H-N-E-I-E-R.
[28:27.080 --> 28:40.420] [SPEAKER_03]: And he goes into, on the August 15th issue, great detail on the advantages and disadvantages of profiling and what really constitutes increasing your security.
[28:40.460 --> 28:43.540] [SPEAKER_03]: And he points out many of the same things that we're pointing out.
[28:43.640 --> 28:47.340] [SPEAKER_03]: That is, this stuff is entirely false.
[28:47.340 --> 28:48.580] [SPEAKER_03]: It makes you feel better.
[28:48.580 --> 28:54.860] [SPEAKER_03]: But once you think about it, you realize how inadequate it is to improve your future chances.
[28:54.980 --> 29:01.880] [SPEAKER_03]: It's great if you want justice or revenge after the fact, but it does nothing for improving your security.
[29:02.860 --> 29:04.000] [SPEAKER_07]: Did you say his name?
[29:04.160 --> 29:05.500] [SPEAKER_07]: His newsletter was Cryptome?
[29:05.660 --> 29:07.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Because that's not him.
[29:07.940 --> 29:08.280] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay.
[29:08.460 --> 29:08.760] [SPEAKER_03]: Then I'm wrong.
[29:08.760 --> 29:09.260] [SPEAKER_03]: Cryptogram.
[29:09.540 --> 29:09.960] [SPEAKER_03]: Cryptogram.
[29:10.140 --> 29:10.540] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.
[29:11.020 --> 29:11.220] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[29:12.340 --> 29:13.760] [SPEAKER_03]: But definitely is Bruce Schneier.
[29:14.040 --> 29:21.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting, too, also on this subject, have there been any more people that we know searched on the trains?
[29:21.580 --> 29:24.320] [SPEAKER_09]: I saw police officers for the first time.
[29:25.220 --> 29:27.420] [SPEAKER_09]: But I haven't been searched yet.
[29:27.900 --> 29:28.720] [SPEAKER_07]: I haven't been searched yet.
[29:28.800 --> 29:29.960] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you don't look suspicious.
[29:30.100 --> 29:30.880] [SPEAKER_07]: The rest of us do, though.
[29:31.080 --> 29:38.580] [SPEAKER_07]: But I did receive this, this press release, from the Screen Actors Guild of all people.
[29:38.900 --> 29:39.500] [SPEAKER_07]: Listen to this.
[29:39.700 --> 29:48.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Screen Actors Guild advises members to no longer purchase or carry police costumes in New York as city appears to revise existing policies.
[29:49.020 --> 29:50.160] [SPEAKER_07]: It's one hell of a headline there.
[29:50.160 --> 30:01.900] [SPEAKER_07]: But basically, what they're saying is that they're advising their members to no longer travel with such props as police outfits or fake guns or anything like that.
[30:02.780 --> 30:10.760] [SPEAKER_07]: Word has it that a couple of people were arrested on their way to a law and order shoot while taking the subway and then being searched.
[30:11.820 --> 30:17.760] [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, I guess it's not that surprising if you have something like that on you that they would take a keen interest.
[30:18.940 --> 30:22.720] [SPEAKER_07]: But it goes to show that, yeah, you know, they're not just looking for bombs.
[30:23.180 --> 30:27.280] [SPEAKER_07]: When they go through your bags, they find anything that's a little bit questionable.
[30:28.360 --> 30:32.800] [SPEAKER_07]: They will have more questions for you, and sometimes those questions will be best answered downtown.
[30:33.180 --> 30:36.280] [SPEAKER_07]: So you've got to really think about this.
[30:36.300 --> 30:40.740] [SPEAKER_07]: You do have the option of walking away, and Mike walked away a few weeks ago.
[30:41.040 --> 30:43.100] [SPEAKER_07]: Mike even was able to say a comment or two.
[30:43.340 --> 30:44.400] [SPEAKER_07]: But he walked away a few weeks ago.
[30:44.540 --> 30:46.260] [SPEAKER_07]: Mike, were you worried at all when you did that?
[30:46.920 --> 30:47.580] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[30:49.160 --> 30:50.880] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, really, like...
[30:50.880 --> 30:52.460] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you know, whatever.
[30:54.500 --> 30:58.180] [SPEAKER_10]: You can't be afraid of these people, or they've already won.
[30:58.680 --> 31:03.460] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, but still, you know, if you mouth off to a cop, they may want to continue the conversation.
[31:03.500 --> 31:05.460] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the only thing I'm a little worried about.
[31:05.740 --> 31:07.480] [SPEAKER_07]: But you do have the right to just walk away.
[31:09.620 --> 31:11.280] [SPEAKER_10]: So it's, you know...
[31:11.280 --> 31:13.960] [SPEAKER_10]: So, you know, it's always a risk, but whatever.
[31:15.360 --> 31:23.300] [SPEAKER_07]: If, you know, we advise our listeners, if you, you know, run into something like this, just walk away and go to another station, or get on a bus.
[31:24.060 --> 31:25.260] [SPEAKER_10]: That's good advice.
[31:25.460 --> 31:28.380] [SPEAKER_10]: But you might have more fun doing other things.
[31:28.940 --> 31:42.060] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's worthwhile to note, I noticed an article Jim has in front of him now, that while they're doing all this to supposedly help the security, they're also doing other things, which certainly would hurt people in the event of an emergency situation,
[31:42.340 --> 31:44.580] [SPEAKER_08]: such as locking the doors at the ends of the cars.
[31:45.160 --> 31:58.540] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the Daily News had an article a few days ago in which they mentioned that a number of people on the British subways had escaped almost certain death by noticing the bombers starting to sputter.
[31:58.540 --> 32:01.420] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't mean, you know, being unable to say things.
[32:01.420 --> 32:06.640] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, their backpacks starting to sputter and ran to the ends of the cars and into the next car.
[32:08.860 --> 32:20.400] [SPEAKER_03]: In most R46 type subway cars on the New York City subways, these are the 75 foot long trains that go ding dong when the doors are opening or closing.
[32:21.760 --> 32:24.000] [SPEAKER_03]: The ends of the cars are locked.
[32:24.340 --> 32:37.900] [SPEAKER_03]: This does guard against people falling to the tracks while attempting to cross between cars, but in a situation in which somebody is a suicide bomber, it would essentially increase the casualties inside the car.
[32:38.680 --> 32:51.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And their only defense against this seems to be that, you know, people could possibly fall off the train or hurt themselves or kids would be surfing on top of the trains because they were able to gain access to the top via these open doors.
[32:51.520 --> 33:02.800] [SPEAKER_08]: And I may have mentioned that I'm a big supporter of Darwinism, but if you're going to climb on top of a subway train, I really don't see any reason why you don't deserve to fall off.
[33:03.120 --> 33:05.240] [SPEAKER_07]: What keeps you from climbing on top of buses?
[33:05.440 --> 33:06.100] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, come on.
[33:06.740 --> 33:10.740] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just completely ridiculous reasons why they do these things.
[33:10.780 --> 33:19.420] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's completely counter to all this money spending that they're doing for unproductive methods of supposedly increasing the security.
[33:19.660 --> 33:21.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, look, no one profits if you unlock doors.
[33:21.940 --> 33:24.860] [SPEAKER_10]: So that's really not a necessary security enhancement.
[33:25.580 --> 33:26.260] [SPEAKER_07]: What do you mean?
[33:26.640 --> 33:29.080] [SPEAKER_10]: No one profits, so there's no real reason to do it.
[33:29.180 --> 33:29.460] [SPEAKER_07]: You're right.
[33:29.660 --> 33:32.020] [SPEAKER_07]: Rocky Martin is making a dime if you open up a door.
[33:32.180 --> 33:33.020] [SPEAKER_10]: They don't make keys.
[33:33.200 --> 33:33.720] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, really.
[33:35.720 --> 33:47.700] [SPEAKER_01]: Along the subject of the security-related rules, the UK has announced they're going to publish a list of unacceptable behaviors.
[33:48.960 --> 33:50.060] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you read about this?
[33:50.060 --> 33:50.500] [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[33:50.500 --> 33:55.220] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I wanted to read about this, but I couldn't get to the BBC to read it, so why don't you tell us about it?
[33:55.900 --> 34:04.180] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they haven't actually published a detailed list yet, but they've sort of summarized the types of things that are going to be on the list of unacceptable behaviors.
[34:04.740 --> 34:13.800] [SPEAKER_01]: And if anyone is found to have committed any of these unacceptable behaviors, and they're not a UK citizen, they can get themselves booted right out of the country.
[34:14.600 --> 34:34.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them include fomenting terrorism or seeking to provoke others to terrorist acts, justifying or glorifying terrorism, fomenting other serious criminal activity or seek to provoke others to serious criminal acts, foster hatred, which may lead to intra-community violence in the UK,
[34:35.440 --> 34:36.060] [SPEAKER_01]: advocating...
[34:36.060 --> 34:37.000] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's one of my favorites.
[34:37.000 --> 34:40.980] [SPEAKER_01]: It's advocating violence in furtherance of particular beliefs.
[34:41.460 --> 34:50.940] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, what other countries have been guilty of advocating violence in furtherance of particular beliefs?
[34:51.100 --> 34:55.620] [SPEAKER_10]: I, for one, am pleased to learn that the US and UK militaries will be expelled from the UK.
[34:55.620 --> 34:57.920] [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's a positive step forward for the country.
[34:58.020 --> 35:00.300] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the UK militaries wouldn't be because they're citizens.
[35:00.700 --> 35:01.040] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh.
[35:01.280 --> 35:21.920] [SPEAKER_03]: What I find fascinating is that if someone was a movie producer and wanted to make an obscure movie on the early life of Benachem Begin, the late Israeli prime minister, if they focus on his history in the Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in the 1940s,
[35:21.960 --> 35:29.040] [SPEAKER_03]: which killed like 100 people, this thing should get that entire movie crew expelled from the UK.
[35:30.100 --> 35:30.280] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean...
[35:30.280 --> 35:30.600] [SPEAKER_03]: George W.
[35:30.660 --> 35:33.180] [SPEAKER_07]: Bush would have to be kicked out of the country if he was in that country.
[35:33.180 --> 35:37.000] [SPEAKER_03]: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter to some extent.
[35:37.300 --> 35:38.980] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there are some people who are beyond the pale.
[35:39.160 --> 35:46.760] [SPEAKER_03]: But still, this is a wide-ranging series of unacceptable behaviors, which I think are a bit unenforceable.
[35:46.940 --> 36:01.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I did hear that there was one radical sheik who happened to say, and this was his only crime, was that he said, while out of the country, that the British government is partially to blame for the events of July 7th.
[36:01.520 --> 36:03.180] [SPEAKER_07]: I would say the same thing.
[36:03.460 --> 36:05.660] [SPEAKER_07]: I guess I would get me kicked out of the country, too.
[36:05.740 --> 36:13.080] [SPEAKER_07]: But apparently, saying that is enough to have you categorized under those new rules and regulations.
[36:13.260 --> 36:14.300] [SPEAKER_10]: But here's the thing, Emmanuel.
[36:14.480 --> 36:18.340] [SPEAKER_10]: It's not enough because you're not a Muslim and you speak English.
[36:18.340 --> 36:22.260] [SPEAKER_10]: So you probably won't be having this policy applied to you.
[36:22.840 --> 36:28.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Like so many of these policies, it's almost certainly going to be applied only against certain types of people.
[36:29.600 --> 36:30.620] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the beauty of it.
[36:30.660 --> 36:31.640] [SPEAKER_07]: It can be used selectively.
[36:32.120 --> 36:40.860] [SPEAKER_01]: For instance, what about one of our favorite televangelists here in this country who just advocated the murder of a foreign leader?
[36:41.340 --> 36:46.040] [SPEAKER_01]: If he were in the UK, he could have been kicked out of the country for saying that.
[36:47.400 --> 36:49.140] [SPEAKER_07]: If he wasn't already a UK citizen.
[36:49.960 --> 36:51.020] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he isn't.
[36:51.140 --> 36:52.220] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a US citizen.
[36:53.240 --> 36:54.140] [SPEAKER_01]: What's his name again?
[36:54.240 --> 36:55.100] [SPEAKER_07]: Robert Robinson.
[36:55.720 --> 36:56.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[36:56.260 --> 37:03.680] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're visiting the UK and he made that statement there, the UK government could legally just kick him out of the country even though he was there on a valid visa.
[37:04.400 --> 37:07.580] [SPEAKER_01]: Which, frankly, I think he should be kicked out of our country, but that's another story.
[37:08.000 --> 37:09.600] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the US citizen, I don't know.
[37:09.700 --> 37:11.760] [SPEAKER_07]: He has a history of saying really stupid things.
[37:12.400 --> 37:13.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Didn't he...
[37:13.160 --> 37:18.660] [SPEAKER_07]: Wasn't he one who issued the call for prayer that Supreme Court justices will kick off so that new one is going to be put in?
[37:20.500 --> 37:23.580] [SPEAKER_07]: And a couple of the real winning things like that.
[37:24.340 --> 37:25.020] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[37:25.020 --> 37:32.820] [SPEAKER_07]: What amazes me more is the amount of attention that that's getting from people as if this guy is a legitimate spokesperson for anybody.
[37:33.000 --> 37:36.440] [SPEAKER_07]: And then, of course, you have the hundreds of thousands of people who follow him, too.
[37:36.560 --> 37:37.600] [SPEAKER_07]: That worries me as well.
[37:39.360 --> 37:42.340] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it was picked up by the news media and they just ran with it.
[37:42.500 --> 37:44.200] [SPEAKER_09]: But he doesn't represent any...
[37:44.820 --> 37:50.240] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, he represents part of the United States, but he doesn't represent any actual policy of the United States.
[37:50.600 --> 37:59.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Speaking of things that haven't really been picked up by the news media, have you guys heard about this thing that happened in Utah, the rave raid, as I call it?
[38:00.100 --> 38:00.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[38:00.400 --> 38:00.620] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[38:00.820 --> 38:02.200] [SPEAKER_08]: It's been picked up, I think.
[38:02.420 --> 38:06.740] [SPEAKER_08]: There's been quite a bit of video footage online posted of that.
[38:06.740 --> 38:07.320] [SPEAKER_07]: On the Internet.
[38:07.480 --> 38:07.800] [SPEAKER_07]: On the Internet.
[38:07.960 --> 38:10.740] [SPEAKER_07]: But have you seen anything on the media, the mass media?
[38:11.020 --> 38:11.800] [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't.
[38:12.160 --> 38:12.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I have.
[38:12.520 --> 38:16.640] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, apparently what happened is there was this rave that was going on in Utah.
[38:17.420 --> 38:18.420] [SPEAKER_07]: It was legal.
[38:18.600 --> 38:20.020] [SPEAKER_07]: It had permits and everything like that.
[38:20.500 --> 38:21.880] [SPEAKER_07]: And there's video of this.
[38:21.920 --> 38:23.620] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll give you the URL in a moment.
[38:23.940 --> 38:25.980] [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, these...
[38:26.820 --> 38:28.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know how to describe it.
[38:28.320 --> 38:33.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I guess just goons showed up in camouflage outfit coming out of helicopters.
[38:34.060 --> 38:36.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, actually, helicopters swooped down and were shining lights on people.
[38:37.440 --> 38:43.720] [SPEAKER_07]: They forced the rave-goers to shut down their event.
[38:44.020 --> 38:48.280] [SPEAKER_07]: They started jumping on people, arresting them, kicking them, all kinds of things.
[38:48.580 --> 38:49.920] [SPEAKER_07]: Tear gas was used.
[38:50.060 --> 38:51.580] [SPEAKER_07]: There were weapons all over the place.
[38:53.300 --> 38:55.020] [SPEAKER_07]: Assaults against unarmed people.
[38:55.220 --> 38:57.320] [SPEAKER_07]: And just a really, really scary atmosphere.
[38:57.500 --> 39:04.120] [SPEAKER_07]: All of a sudden, you're at a rave and all of a sudden, these people in camouflage outfits descend out of nowhere and start screaming obscenities at you.
[39:04.120 --> 39:05.860] [SPEAKER_07]: It's like you're in a rock all of a sudden.
[39:07.100 --> 39:09.680] [SPEAKER_07]: Nobody really knows what it was that happened.
[39:09.840 --> 39:12.360] [SPEAKER_07]: There's all kinds of investigations that are being started.
[39:12.560 --> 39:15.620] [SPEAKER_07]: But this is something that should be in the mass media.
[39:16.140 --> 39:17.500] [SPEAKER_07]: It should be the top story.
[39:17.900 --> 39:19.420] [SPEAKER_07]: I can't understand why it's not.
[39:19.420 --> 39:22.980] [SPEAKER_07]: But a URL for you to see some of the...
[39:22.980 --> 39:24.300] [SPEAKER_07]: some of what happened.
[39:24.500 --> 39:31.400] [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't know if there's a better one out there, but the one I have is homepage.mac.com slash apexgrin.
[39:31.460 --> 39:36.920] [SPEAKER_07]: That's A-P-E-X-G-R-I-N slash filesharing2.html.
[39:37.060 --> 39:39.860] [SPEAKER_07]: And actually, filesharing has a capital F and a capital S.
[39:41.060 --> 39:42.140] [SPEAKER_07]: So check that out.
[39:42.200 --> 39:44.660] [SPEAKER_07]: There's a video there that'll show you what happened.
[39:44.900 --> 39:48.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And if there's more details of the story, I'd like to hear about it.
[39:48.220 --> 39:53.840] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a URL that might be easier for our listeners to type in, and it's just KUTV.com.
[39:54.320 --> 39:57.400] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a local TV station there in Salt Lake City, Channel 2.
[39:57.620 --> 39:58.420] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a CBS affiliate.
[39:58.620 --> 40:05.540] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you go to KUTV.com, you can see a bunch of pictures on their webpage and download some videos of what happened.
[40:06.120 --> 40:09.320] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it sounds like KUTV is a member of the mass media, then.
[40:09.420 --> 40:10.720] [SPEAKER_07]: What kind of coverage have they been giving it?
[40:10.860 --> 40:15.480] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm looking at the pictures on the website, and they look pretty scary, frankly.
[40:15.640 --> 40:21.980] [SPEAKER_01]: There's guys running around in SWAT jackets with machine guns and people showing bruises on their bodies.
[40:22.720 --> 40:23.720] [SPEAKER_01]: It looks ugly.
[40:24.920 --> 40:28.880] [SPEAKER_07]: What's amazing about this is that the event was completely legal.
[40:29.160 --> 40:30.140] [SPEAKER_07]: The event had permits.
[40:30.140 --> 40:31.760] [SPEAKER_07]: They were allowed to be there.
[40:32.340 --> 40:40.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Under what pretext did they move in under such crazy scenarios and shut it down in this manner?
[40:40.460 --> 40:41.720] [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I want to know.
[40:41.720 --> 40:43.040] [SPEAKER_09]: I saw two things.
[40:43.220 --> 40:52.320] [SPEAKER_09]: One, I think they didn't have some sort of permit, but also, they had undercover police infiltrating it and watching people selling drugs and taking drugs.
[40:52.840 --> 40:56.380] [SPEAKER_09]: I think at that point is when they had the teams come in.
[40:56.420 --> 41:02.900] [SPEAKER_09]: I guess they were ready for it, but I think they actually looked to see something illegal going on before they raided it.
[41:03.020 --> 41:07.220] [SPEAKER_08]: But at any sort of party like this, I mean, those things are going to be going on regardless.
[41:07.520 --> 41:10.440] [SPEAKER_08]: But, I mean, if you watch these videos, it's just completely outrageous.
[41:10.440 --> 41:17.280] [SPEAKER_08]: You see these guys just like picking people out of the crowd and beating them to the ground, and it's completely absurd and scary.
[41:17.560 --> 41:23.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry, but you go to the Metropolitan Opera, there are going to be people selling drugs in the bathrooms or something.
[41:23.540 --> 41:25.060] [SPEAKER_07]: It happens every place.
[41:25.060 --> 41:26.360] [SPEAKER_07]: It happens all the time.
[41:26.560 --> 41:41.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you honestly think if they were standing around and they didn't see somebody selling something to somebody else, that they all would have gone home in their camouflage outfits and their helicopters saying, well, guys, they weren't up to anything, so let's just abort the operation.
[41:41.180 --> 41:41.640] [SPEAKER_07]: Of course not.
[41:41.700 --> 41:42.600] [SPEAKER_07]: They wanted to do this.
[41:42.740 --> 41:43.400] [SPEAKER_07]: They were ready to do this.
[41:43.520 --> 41:44.780] [SPEAKER_07]: They would have done it no matter what.
[41:44.860 --> 41:47.620] [SPEAKER_07]: If somebody had dropped a candy wrapper on the ground, they would have moved in.
[41:47.780 --> 41:49.000] [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe it happens all the time.
[41:49.140 --> 41:51.680] [SPEAKER_10]: There's camouflage, so they blend right into the night.
[41:52.720 --> 42:00.180] [SPEAKER_10]: But you were talking earlier about how this is kind of a failure of the corporate mass media to fail to report the story.
[42:00.200 --> 42:14.560] [SPEAKER_10]: But what's also interesting, it can also be viewed as a success of independent media and of the Internet to kind of distribute this video in a way so that we're talking about it and others across the country can talk about it.
[42:15.080 --> 42:26.240] [SPEAKER_10]: This ability to distribute video of things like this is something that's not really new anymore, but is still undeveloped.
[42:26.400 --> 42:36.460] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's the same thing that happened at RNC almost a year ago where people shot video and proved that the police were lying and were able to counter their arguments in court.
[42:36.620 --> 42:49.220] [SPEAKER_07]: It basically comes down to being the media yourself, as Jello says, walking around with cameras, capturing as much as you possibly can, and using it, not being afraid to actually show people, no, this is not what happened.
[42:49.360 --> 42:50.200] [SPEAKER_07]: Look at this.
[42:50.280 --> 42:51.360] [SPEAKER_07]: This is really what happened.
[42:51.560 --> 42:53.100] [SPEAKER_07]: You have to walk around with those cameras.
[42:53.200 --> 42:54.420] [SPEAKER_07]: You have to capture these things.
[42:54.700 --> 42:56.620] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, they have surveillance cameras every place.
[42:56.620 --> 42:57.520] [SPEAKER_07]: They're watching you.
[42:57.780 --> 42:59.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Watch them right back.
[42:59.800 --> 43:11.400] [SPEAKER_08]: Unfortunately, I think it's not as effective as getting it in the mass media, because I think this independent sort of reporting has a completely different target audience and people who follow that sort of thing.
[43:11.540 --> 43:21.060] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think if, you know, it's still, we should really still push to get this stuff in the mass media, because a lot more people will see it than in a completely different type of people will see it.
[43:23.160 --> 43:23.720] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[43:23.940 --> 43:35.260] [SPEAKER_10]: I want to move on to this story from Canada, where there's a bill in the parliament, which would allow police to monitor email without getting the permission of a judge.
[43:35.960 --> 43:38.540] [SPEAKER_10]: And this is being developed kind of quietly.
[43:38.900 --> 43:44.340] [SPEAKER_10]: The Canadian police are very worried that they're falling behind in the technological world.
[43:44.680 --> 44:02.920] [SPEAKER_10]: So rather than extending existing laws, which would allow them to get a, you know, a warrant and read email when people are actually committing crimes, they've got this new law that would allow them to just call up the ISP and say, hey, we want access to this person's email and get it without a judge at all.
[44:03.160 --> 44:23.120] [SPEAKER_10]: And what really is kind of surprising me about this story, you know, I can't even be surprised by stories like this anymore, but what's surprising to me is that the NDP, which is kind of a very progressive party in Canada, is among, is like all the other parties behind this because they're concerned about child pornography.
[44:23.700 --> 44:32.400] [SPEAKER_10]: And they say, the NDP justice critic says, our police forces always seem to be lagging behind.
[44:32.870 --> 44:37.980] [SPEAKER_10]: So it's really, everyone wants to intercept email without permission.
[44:37.980 --> 44:38.700] [SPEAKER_10]: It's very scary.
[44:38.840 --> 44:43.860] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, actually, in the United States, on kind of a different angle, there was a U.S.
[44:43.960 --> 44:50.880] [SPEAKER_09]: federal appeals court, and they ruled that intercepting email in temporary storage violates federal wiretap laws.
[44:51.380 --> 45:07.700] [SPEAKER_09]: And it overturned another ruling, and basically the idea was that the federal government wanted to say, well, when email is still in transit from the sender to the receiver, it sits on servers at times, and so it's data in storage, so they can just go look at it.
[45:07.800 --> 45:14.220] [SPEAKER_09]: But the federal judges ruled that it's actually communications, so they can't, they have to get a wiretap.
[45:14.360 --> 45:15.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, here's what will happen.
[45:15.260 --> 45:23.140] [SPEAKER_10]: This Canada thing will pass, and then the United States FBI will be like, oh no, now we're lagging behind the Canadians, and so we need this.
[45:23.940 --> 45:31.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think it's a good point now to mention a very, very effective and simple, easy-to-implement solution, which is to use PGP.
[45:32.300 --> 45:33.180] [SPEAKER_08]: Or GPG.
[45:33.420 --> 45:34.500] [SPEAKER_08]: GPG, PGP, whatever.
[45:34.740 --> 45:40.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's, you know, you can get plug-ins for almost any mail client you could think of, and they're very readily available.
[45:40.880 --> 45:43.240] [SPEAKER_07]: Don't get me started on PGP.
[45:43.260 --> 45:45.240] [SPEAKER_07]: What a bunch of morons those people are.
[45:45.320 --> 45:45.800] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry.
[45:46.000 --> 45:55.520] [SPEAKER_07]: I tried to get PGP installed on my machine out here when I was traveling, and have you ever gone to the PGP site and tried to download their, you know, the freeware version?
[45:55.740 --> 46:00.020] [SPEAKER_07]: They force you to basically agree to buy the latest one.
[46:00.080 --> 46:01.420] [SPEAKER_07]: You can't buy the older one.
[46:01.800 --> 46:03.740] [SPEAKER_07]: You can't download the older one.
[46:03.860 --> 46:05.720] [SPEAKER_07]: It is, you have to agree to buy something.
[46:05.960 --> 46:07.840] [SPEAKER_07]: This big, long, drawn-out thing.
[46:07.840 --> 46:10.440] [SPEAKER_07]: It used to be so simple to download PGP and install it.
[46:10.560 --> 46:12.040] [SPEAKER_07]: They've made it so difficult now.
[46:12.040 --> 46:26.860] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, you're referring to the corporate version, the actual company that sells PGP, but there are many open-source implementations of it, so don't scare the listeners away from trying to use this, because there's probably a better plug-in that you could find.
[46:27.080 --> 46:28.020] [SPEAKER_08]: You may have to search for it.
[46:28.020 --> 46:32.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I have had maybe a dozen people looking for something that will run on Windows.
[46:32.540 --> 46:34.320] [SPEAKER_07]: Nobody has come up with anything.
[46:36.600 --> 46:38.080] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, nobody.
[46:38.380 --> 46:39.160] [SPEAKER_09]: There's really a shortage.
[46:39.160 --> 46:41.620] [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe one of our listeners will, and they'll send you an email about it.
[46:42.260 --> 46:57.140] [SPEAKER_09]: And if you do want to send us an email at Off The Hook, our email address is oth@2600.com, and our mailing address is Off The Hook, care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York.
[46:57.340 --> 46:59.640] [SPEAKER_09]: 1-0-0-0-5.
[47:00.780 --> 47:01.340] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[47:02.160 --> 47:04.760] [SPEAKER_09]: I guess we'll take some phone calls now, if that's all right with everyone.
[47:05.080 --> 47:08.900] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I also have one other little rant I'd like to go on, and then we'll take some phone calls.
[47:09.960 --> 47:12.680] [SPEAKER_10]: Let's give out the phone number so people can start calling.
[47:12.820 --> 47:13.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Go ahead.
[47:13.160 --> 47:13.660] [SPEAKER_10]: Give out the phone number.
[47:13.660 --> 47:16.600] [SPEAKER_10]: It's 212-209-2900.
[47:17.060 --> 47:20.100] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, there's a new thing with Verizon and DSL.
[47:20.240 --> 47:21.920] [SPEAKER_07]: What is it exactly that they're offering?
[47:24.200 --> 47:25.240] [SPEAKER_09]: $15 DSL, right?
[47:25.340 --> 47:25.840] [SPEAKER_09]: Something like that.
[47:25.900 --> 47:27.040] [SPEAKER_09]: $15 a month DSL.
[47:27.280 --> 47:27.640] [SPEAKER_09]: $15.
[47:27.660 --> 47:27.940] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[47:28.380 --> 47:30.020] [SPEAKER_07]: Let me tell you something about these rat bastards.
[47:30.280 --> 47:30.600] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[47:30.600 --> 47:38.420] [SPEAKER_07]: I've been trying to get DSL installed in an apartment in New York for months now, literally months.
[47:38.680 --> 47:39.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Here's the deal.
[47:39.800 --> 47:51.400] [SPEAKER_07]: If you do not get the DSL directly from Verizon, and this is a fact, and I will argue anybody on this, they will not show up to install it.
[47:51.480 --> 47:58.080] [SPEAKER_07]: If you are getting DSL to another provider, you still need to have Verizon come and install the line.
[47:58.780 --> 48:01.320] [SPEAKER_07]: However, they will not keep their appointment.
[48:01.480 --> 48:06.100] [SPEAKER_07]: I've had somebody waiting three different days from 9 o'clock until 6 o'clock in the evening.
[48:06.400 --> 48:07.380] [SPEAKER_07]: They lie.
[48:07.620 --> 48:10.680] [SPEAKER_07]: They say that they were there and they were not there.
[48:10.820 --> 48:13.520] [SPEAKER_07]: They say that there was no access when there was plenty of access.
[48:14.280 --> 48:20.500] [SPEAKER_07]: And if you ask a provider, if you ask somebody who provides DSL, another company, they will say, yes, this is standard practice.
[48:20.680 --> 48:21.500] [SPEAKER_07]: This is what Verizon does.
[48:21.620 --> 48:24.980] [SPEAKER_07]: The reason they do it is because they're not making any money off of this.
[48:25.100 --> 48:26.460] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, there's a way around it.
[48:26.460 --> 48:28.120] [SPEAKER_07]: You can order a phone line.
[48:28.260 --> 48:30.940] [SPEAKER_07]: Order a phone line through Verizon and they will come and install that.
[48:31.060 --> 48:36.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Then you convert that phone line to DSL and voila, you have your independent DSL line.
[48:36.660 --> 48:37.660] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not going to do that.
[48:37.720 --> 48:39.060] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not going to play that stupid game.
[48:39.200 --> 48:47.260] [SPEAKER_07]: Instead, what I'd rather do is let people know about this, that this is their practice, this is how they operate, this is the depth that they sink to.
[48:47.580 --> 48:55.460] [SPEAKER_07]: And I do intend to follow up with the Public Service Commission and I urge everybody else who has been through something like this to do the same thing.
[48:55.620 --> 48:56.800] [SPEAKER_07]: Don't let them get away with this.
[48:57.980 --> 48:59.560] [SPEAKER_07]: I knew they did things like this.
[48:59.640 --> 49:04.020] [SPEAKER_07]: I knew they went out and they vandalized lines sometimes and cut people's DSL access.
[49:04.200 --> 49:06.160] [SPEAKER_07]: It happens to me more times than I can count.
[49:07.140 --> 49:10.960] [SPEAKER_07]: But to be so blatant about it is just so annoying.
[49:11.860 --> 49:19.020] [SPEAKER_07]: And literally for months, since the spring, we've been trying to get this line installed and they simply do not show up and then they lie about it.
[49:19.020 --> 49:28.440] [SPEAKER_01]: Horizon no longer has to re-offer DSL service to third-party providers through their lines anymore anyway, do they?
[49:29.540 --> 49:30.960] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the first time I'm hearing about this.
[49:31.000 --> 49:31.860] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they do.
[49:32.140 --> 49:33.960] [SPEAKER_08]: The, the, the, what, the government?
[49:34.060 --> 49:44.120] [SPEAKER_08]: The FCC converted it from a communication service to an information service or something like that so now they don't actually have to offer their lines to third parties.
[49:44.440 --> 49:53.480] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm probably not getting that completely right, but we've, we had a story about that a couple of weeks ago and I don't know if it's effective yet but it probably will be started soon.
[49:54.580 --> 49:55.080] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[49:55.240 --> 49:57.820] [SPEAKER_09]: I had one quick story I wanted to mention before we took phone calls.
[49:57.880 --> 49:58.500] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll be real quick.
[49:59.020 --> 50:11.920] [SPEAKER_09]: It's an interesting kind of post what the hack fallout in that I was just walking, minding my own business, wearing my what the hack hat as I always do and someone on the street said, were you at what the hack?
[50:12.700 --> 50:26.600] [SPEAKER_09]: And it turns out they had also been there and we got talking and they work on a project that I, you know, finally this is kind of a kick for me to get involved with it but I may get involved with that and so I just thought that was interesting that even outside of what the hack it kind of touches people.
[50:27.040 --> 50:28.760] [SPEAKER_07]: Is this walking down the street in Manhattan?
[50:29.360 --> 50:30.820] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, walking across campus.
[50:31.840 --> 50:32.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting.
[50:32.360 --> 50:32.480] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[50:33.040 --> 50:35.540] [SPEAKER_07]: Those what the hack hats, they really get you noticed.
[50:35.640 --> 50:37.820] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, I would have never spoken to the guy if I hadn't been wearing it.
[50:37.920 --> 50:38.920] [SPEAKER_09]: I still want a what the hat.
[50:40.120 --> 50:41.680] [SPEAKER_09]: All right, let's take some phone calls.
[50:41.680 --> 50:45.320] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, so 212-209-2900.
[50:46.140 --> 50:47.060] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, good evening.
[50:47.160 --> 50:47.660] [SPEAKER_09]: You're on the air.
[50:48.480 --> 50:48.900] [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[50:49.220 --> 50:49.540] [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[50:50.220 --> 50:52.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I turned the radio now.
[50:52.340 --> 50:52.820] [SPEAKER_06]: You shocked me.
[50:53.120 --> 50:54.020] [SPEAKER_06]: I am a...
[50:54.020 --> 50:54.940] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how to say this.
[50:54.940 --> 50:55.500] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm a novice.
[50:55.580 --> 50:56.920] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know anything about computers.
[50:57.340 --> 51:06.600] [SPEAKER_06]: I just wanted to know, I had Optimal Online installed for its phone service and a friend of mine stated that it might not be a secure line to speak on.
[51:07.200 --> 51:11.220] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how to ask the question, is it secure to speak on, sir?
[51:11.600 --> 51:13.540] [SPEAKER_08]: There are no secure lines to speak on.
[51:13.680 --> 51:14.400] [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, but the...
[51:14.400 --> 51:16.160] [SPEAKER_08]: what they use is, uh, VOIP.
[51:16.700 --> 51:20.780] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, and I don't know, uh, who monitors that, but...
[51:20.780 --> 51:22.820] [SPEAKER_09]: Is there any encryption for voice over IP?
[51:23.080 --> 51:24.120] [SPEAKER_09]: I think you might be asking.
[51:24.380 --> 51:26.120] [SPEAKER_09]: Not that you can put on your...
[51:26.120 --> 51:27.740] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know the proper terminology.
[51:27.960 --> 51:29.140] [SPEAKER_06]: I apologize for that.
[51:29.440 --> 51:35.520] [SPEAKER_06]: But I was just wondering, I know I talk on a regular telephone line, and I found that the service where I live, that was horrible.
[51:36.000 --> 51:39.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so I switched to Optimal Online, which I thought was a better package deal.
[51:40.480 --> 51:43.160] [SPEAKER_06]: And, um, I had no complaints about it.
[51:43.280 --> 51:45.800] [SPEAKER_06]: I was just curious whether I could actually talk on a line.
[51:45.800 --> 51:48.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Not that I'm going to say anything wrong, but I was...
[51:48.280 --> 51:49.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Is it a safe system?
[51:49.660 --> 51:51.900] [SPEAKER_06]: And, say, a regular telephone line?
[51:51.900 --> 51:53.660] [SPEAKER_10]: Here's the analysis you need to perform.
[51:54.240 --> 52:04.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the analysis is, uh, how much is it worth it, uh, for whoever's hearing you, uh, to, to hear you?
[52:04.540 --> 52:07.360] [SPEAKER_10]: And, and, uh, how big a secret do you have?
[52:07.780 --> 52:09.200] [SPEAKER_10]: No secret to my life, sir.
[52:09.400 --> 52:13.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Then they're probably not, uh, interested in overhearing you.
[52:13.560 --> 52:19.780] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and, I mean, even with a regular phone line, if someone gets, connects to the wire, it's there and they can listen.
[52:20.060 --> 52:22.900] [SPEAKER_09]: So, uh, and of course, the federal government can always listen.
[52:23.440 --> 52:23.880] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, right.
[52:24.080 --> 52:30.540] [SPEAKER_09]: With voice over IP, uh, if you want, I would, I would say call them and ask them what kind of data privacy they have for the, for this system.
[52:31.000 --> 52:36.180] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, and if they, uh, and, and call us back and tell us because I'd be interested to know myself.
[52:37.140 --> 52:37.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[52:37.880 --> 52:39.160] [SPEAKER_06]: I say, thank you very much.
[52:39.260 --> 52:40.720] [SPEAKER_06]: I was shocked when you answered the phone.
[52:41.480 --> 52:41.800] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[52:42.380 --> 52:44.820] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, thank you very much and, um, have a good day.
[52:44.980 --> 52:45.600] [SPEAKER_09]: All right, no problem.
[52:45.860 --> 52:46.020] [SPEAKER_09]: Bye.
[52:46.140 --> 52:46.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Take care, sir.
[52:47.180 --> 52:47.320] Bye.
[52:52.450 --> 52:53.030] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[52:53.430 --> 52:55.090] [SPEAKER_09]: Seems we're having trouble with the phone system now.
[52:56.450 --> 52:56.810] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[52:57.410 --> 52:58.690] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, I guess click another phone call.
[52:59.050 --> 52:59.550] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[53:00.730 --> 53:01.630] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, good evening.
[53:01.790 --> 53:02.270] [SPEAKER_09]: You're on the air.
[53:02.750 --> 53:03.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[53:03.590 --> 53:03.910] [SPEAKER_04]: How are you?
[53:04.210 --> 53:04.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[53:04.670 --> 53:05.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, turn your radio down.
[53:05.750 --> 53:06.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[53:08.190 --> 53:16.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yeah, I wanted to ask, uh, or actually follow up on the, um, uh, phone, phone scenario.
[53:16.510 --> 53:25.550] [SPEAKER_04]: A friend of mine has, uh, was it, uh, MCI and they're not getting any service out of their, um, with the place in a service call.
[53:25.670 --> 53:26.270] [SPEAKER_04]: No one's coming.
[53:26.970 --> 53:27.450] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[53:28.410 --> 53:30.650] [SPEAKER_04]: So I just wanted to also voice my opinion on that.
[53:30.890 --> 53:31.030] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[53:31.650 --> 53:31.890] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[53:32.250 --> 53:35.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I don't think anything we can do about that or just, just wait.
[53:36.090 --> 53:42.370] [SPEAKER_03]: The public service commission, uh, they, uh, they're listed in the front of the phone book and you can complain to them.
[53:42.550 --> 53:45.970] [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully something will be done, but we'll wait and see.
[53:46.130 --> 53:49.250] [SPEAKER_03]: You'll get back to us and tell us, uh, if anything gets done.
[53:49.510 --> 53:50.570] [SPEAKER_03]: Good luck on that.
[53:51.070 --> 53:52.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Keep, keep doing a good job.
[53:57.450 --> 53:57.570] [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[53:57.730 --> 53:58.190] [SPEAKER_09]: You're on the air.
[53:59.350 --> 53:59.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, hi.
[54:00.350 --> 54:00.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Can you hear me?
[54:01.130 --> 54:01.410] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[54:02.030 --> 54:02.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Emmanuel.
[54:02.710 --> 54:04.010] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been enjoying hearing about your trip.
[54:04.370 --> 54:08.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, last week I was reminded of, uh, my experience in Jamaica a few years ago.
[54:08.370 --> 54:16.350] [SPEAKER_05]: I was, uh, in Montego and I saw a guy sitting underneath a mango tree with a desk phone and a sign that said please your call's here.
[54:16.830 --> 54:19.930] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, somewhere I have the picture and I'll, uh, try and email it.
[54:19.970 --> 54:21.730] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's another, uh, human phone booth.
[54:21.970 --> 54:22.790] [SPEAKER_09]: That'd be interesting.
[54:23.150 --> 54:27.230] [SPEAKER_09]: That'd be interesting to add with the other one on the back of, uh, future edition of 2600.
[54:27.450 --> 54:29.910] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, maybe it could be the second picture of a person with a phone.
[54:30.350 --> 54:30.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[54:30.830 --> 54:34.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and maybe I'll also send in a picture of my parent payphone from Brazil, which is pretty amusing.
[54:35.730 --> 54:39.410] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but what I was talking about was the subway searches, which I'm very opposed to.
[54:39.510 --> 54:42.690] [SPEAKER_05]: I've joined Civil Liberties, uh, Stop the Subway Searches campaign.
[54:43.330 --> 54:47.030] [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, I live in Queens and, uh, I saw last week, two weeks ago...
[54:47.030 --> 54:48.790] [SPEAKER_10]: Very, very quickly, sir, because we're almost out of time.
[54:48.890 --> 54:51.970] [SPEAKER_05]: Two weeks ago there was a police officer searching bags on the platform.
[54:52.490 --> 54:55.650] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, that doesn't give you the option to walk to the next train.
[54:55.910 --> 54:57.550] [SPEAKER_05]: You've got to actually leave the train.
[54:57.770 --> 55:03.450] [SPEAKER_05]: And what I'm wondering is, can you then accuse the police of theft of service for making you get off the train from having your bag searched?
[55:03.650 --> 55:07.710] [SPEAKER_05]: And can they actually search you after you've gotten on the platform?
[55:07.970 --> 55:08.790] [SPEAKER_05]: That's my question.
[55:08.850 --> 55:09.930] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll get off and listen.
[55:10.070 --> 55:10.250] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks.
[55:10.370 --> 55:10.690] [SPEAKER_05]: Have a good night.
[55:10.990 --> 55:23.090] [SPEAKER_08]: Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of, uh, the subway stations have now, uh, written on the whiteboards behind the, uh, token booth clerks that you're subject to search if you enter the subway, which is unfortunate because it prevents the ability from just walking away.
[55:23.150 --> 55:26.370] [SPEAKER_08]: So I don't know about the legal I don't think those whiteboards mean anything.
[55:26.370 --> 55:28.730] [SPEAKER_10]: But we're really out of time here.
[55:28.950 --> 55:33.390] [SPEAKER_03]: The police had alleged that, uh, anyone suspicious would be searched whether they were entering or already in.
[55:33.670 --> 55:34.010] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[55:34.330 --> 55:36.670] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, uh, that's all for us this week for Off The Hook.
[55:36.850 --> 55:40.430] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, and for everyone here in the studio and for Emmanuel and Bernie, uh, goodnight.