[00:00.000 --> 00:10.780] [SPEAKER_12]: What makes the situation more peculiar is that all of Varela's film work was confiscated by police and is now in their hands, exposing Mapuche activists who trusted her.
[00:11.040 --> 00:21.300] [SPEAKER_12]: Also confiscated was material she was preparing for a docudrama telling the story of a left-wing political organization that took up arms during the Pinochet dictatorship.
[00:21.300 --> 00:24.500] [SPEAKER_12]: Her arrest is scaring documentary filmmakers.
[00:24.720 --> 00:30.320] [SPEAKER_12]: At a press conference, documentary filmmaker Ignacio Aguero expressed how they feel.
[00:31.400 --> 00:35.440] [SPEAKER_04]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York where the time is 7 o'clock.
[00:35.780 --> 00:37.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Time now for Off The Hook.
[01:58.930 --> 01:59.770] [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening to everybody.
[01:59.870 --> 02:00.990] [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:01.070 --> 02:03.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:03.610 --> 02:05.390] [SPEAKER_04]: And boy, we've got a lot of people in the studio tonight.
[02:06.130 --> 02:07.710] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're not done yet.
[02:07.710 --> 02:08.890] [SPEAKER_04]: We're still trying to reach more people.
[02:11.210 --> 02:13.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's try and get everybody here.
[02:14.310 --> 02:15.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Mike is over there.
[02:16.090 --> 02:16.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[02:16.550 --> 02:17.050] [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing?
[02:17.230 --> 02:17.570] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm well.
[02:18.650 --> 02:20.530] [SPEAKER_04]: And RedHackt, you're here this week.
[02:20.750 --> 02:21.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[02:21.270 --> 02:21.710] [SPEAKER_04]: For real.
[02:22.990 --> 02:24.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I don't know what you're talking about.
[02:24.390 --> 02:24.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[02:25.070 --> 02:25.470] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[02:25.530 --> 02:28.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Your identity was stolen last week and somebody was impersonating you.
[02:29.490 --> 02:30.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's see.
[02:30.050 --> 02:32.470] [SPEAKER_04]: We have Lexicon joining us again.
[02:33.230 --> 02:34.350] [SPEAKER_04]: And Rob T. Firefly.
[02:34.470 --> 02:34.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[02:35.010 --> 02:35.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:35.630 --> 02:36.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Outside the room is not Kevin.
[02:37.030 --> 02:37.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[02:37.710 --> 02:38.530] [SPEAKER_04]: That looks like Mark S.
[02:38.670 --> 02:40.010] [SPEAKER_04]: joining us from Texas.
[02:40.490 --> 02:40.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey.
[02:40.850 --> 02:41.230] [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing?
[02:42.650 --> 02:44.170] [SPEAKER_04]: And what's the deal with Bernie?
[02:44.810 --> 02:45.930] [SPEAKER_04]: I can try calling him.
[02:45.930 --> 02:46.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Try calling Bernie again.
[02:46.930 --> 02:49.130] [SPEAKER_04]: And apparently, once again, there's...
[02:49.130 --> 02:49.430] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[02:49.590 --> 02:51.130] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't want to dial his number on the air.
[02:51.670 --> 02:53.710] [SPEAKER_04]: We're having trouble reaching Bernie in Philadelphia.
[02:54.630 --> 02:55.890] [SPEAKER_04]: Enter the secret code.
[02:56.350 --> 02:56.750] Okay.
[02:56.970 --> 02:57.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Put it down for that.
[02:57.850 --> 02:58.090] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[02:58.230 --> 03:02.670] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is the sound of Bernie's phone ringing and hopefully picking up.
[03:03.230 --> 03:03.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?
[03:04.190 --> 03:05.950] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not too optimistic, but...
[03:05.950 --> 03:07.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Are you sure that's Bernie's ring?
[03:07.110 --> 03:07.690] [SPEAKER_04]: It sounds a little different.
[03:08.510 --> 03:09.130] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[03:09.610 --> 03:10.770] [SPEAKER_04]: I hope I got his number right.
[03:10.790 --> 03:12.850] [SPEAKER_19]: I have to remember he changed cell phones a little while back then.
[03:12.850 --> 03:14.290] [SPEAKER_04]: He did, but he didn't change his phone number.
[03:16.230 --> 03:16.550] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[03:16.610 --> 03:17.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if we...
[03:17.450 --> 03:17.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[03:17.850 --> 03:19.730] [SPEAKER_04]: If we get his voicemail, we'll leave a message.
[03:20.150 --> 03:22.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe he forgot it was time for the show.
[03:23.170 --> 03:23.950] [SPEAKER_04]: It seems that way.
[03:23.950 --> 03:32.270] [SPEAKER_17]: Sorry, I can't take your call now, but if you leave your name, number, and a message after the tone, I will call you back as soon as I can.
[03:32.850 --> 03:33.650] [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for calling.
[03:34.290 --> 03:35.310] [SPEAKER_05]: To leave a voice message, press 1.
[03:35.310 --> 03:40.770] [SPEAKER_04]: You see, he leaves this whole big proclamation afterwards, which is longer than the message.
[03:41.490 --> 03:42.930] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's a way to get rid of that.
[03:43.070 --> 03:43.810] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a way to cut that.
[03:45.450 --> 03:46.430] [SPEAKER_05]: See, it's not done yet.
[03:46.430 --> 03:47.470] [SPEAKER_05]: They're still giving you instructions.
[03:48.210 --> 03:52.050] [SPEAKER_05]: When you are finished recording, you may hang up or press pound for more options.
[03:52.050 --> 03:53.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever happened to just the beep?
[03:53.450 --> 03:53.710] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[03:53.950 --> 04:06.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Bernie, you know, it's time for Off The Hook, and we don't know where you are, so please call us on the special secret hotline, the red one, not the green one, and we'll watch out for that, and hopefully we'll talk to you this hour.
[04:06.910 --> 04:07.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[04:07.250 --> 04:07.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Disconnect.
[04:08.230 --> 04:10.270] [SPEAKER_05]: To send your message, press 1.
[04:10.270 --> 04:11.190] [SPEAKER_05]: You have to send it?
[04:13.130 --> 04:14.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Can you send it with urgent delivery?
[04:14.730 --> 04:15.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Message sent.
[04:16.150 --> 04:17.210] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for calling.
[04:17.950 --> 04:19.210] [SPEAKER_04]: You should have let us say goodbye.
[04:19.470 --> 04:20.570] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I had enough.
[04:20.990 --> 04:21.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[04:21.630 --> 04:22.890] [SPEAKER_04]: Special guest this evening.
[04:22.890 --> 04:24.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Stephen Levy is joining us.
[04:24.730 --> 04:25.130] [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing?
[04:25.190 --> 04:25.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome.
[04:25.770 --> 04:26.070] [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[04:26.290 --> 04:32.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Stephen is our keynote speaker for the Last Hope Conference coming up in, well, next week, actually, in about, what, nine days?
[04:32.870 --> 04:33.650] [SPEAKER_04]: That's really soon.
[04:33.850 --> 04:34.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[04:34.190 --> 04:37.790] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, you guys listening might recall the name Stephen Levy.
[04:37.790 --> 04:42.090] [SPEAKER_04]: He wrote the book, Hackers, Heroes of the Digital Revolution?
[04:42.310 --> 04:42.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Computer.
[04:42.530 --> 04:42.790] [SPEAKER_04]: Computer.
[04:42.950 --> 04:43.750] [SPEAKER_04]: I always get that wrong.
[04:44.370 --> 04:45.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what year was that written?
[04:45.850 --> 04:46.270] [SPEAKER_10]: 1984.
[04:46.870 --> 04:47.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[04:47.430 --> 04:55.970] [SPEAKER_04]: So the same year 2600 started coming out, the same year Phrack magazine started, the same year the Chaos Communication Congress began in Germany.
[04:56.470 --> 04:57.790] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of things happened in 1984.
[04:58.250 --> 04:59.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Total syzygy.
[04:59.370 --> 05:00.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, indeed.
[05:00.790 --> 05:07.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Have things changed over the years between how you saw hackers back then and what hackers are viewed as now?
[05:07.050 --> 05:25.250] [SPEAKER_10]: A lot has changed, but I think what's really encouraging to me is fundamentally, hackerism has actually spread, and in viral form, it's really moved throughout the culture pretty thoroughly, and it's been a pretty encouraging thing.
[05:25.450 --> 05:38.430] [SPEAKER_10]: If you recall from the book, beginning with the last section, I was getting a little pessimistic that money and greed and the popularity of computers might help drive out hackerism.
[05:38.430 --> 05:47.470] [SPEAKER_10]: And certainly, the pure hackerism that I wrote about in the MIT AI lab changed from stuff like that.
[05:47.610 --> 05:54.830] [SPEAKER_10]: But the really good thing was that first with personal computers and then the Internet, the spirit of hackerism got out there.
[05:54.950 --> 06:08.710] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think now, after a really rough period, the term hacker is being reclaimed to be something more positive than just referring, as it was starting in the mid-1980s, with people who did destructive things.
[06:09.410 --> 06:15.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you buy into the whole thing of, well, let's refer to those kinds of people as crackers and the others as hackers and everything will be fine?
[06:15.490 --> 06:17.170] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you really can't fight language.
[06:17.330 --> 06:19.430] [SPEAKER_10]: Language has a course of its own.
[06:19.550 --> 06:20.510] [SPEAKER_10]: It's like trying to move a river.
[06:20.510 --> 06:30.730] [SPEAKER_10]: So when people found it convenient to refer to hackers in that sense and made it a definition, not the definition of hackers, that's locked in.
[06:30.870 --> 06:32.290] [SPEAKER_10]: People are always going to use that.
[06:32.410 --> 06:47.030] [SPEAKER_10]: But I think in a positive sense, the earlier, more positive definition, which just encompassed people who did wizardry or did amazing things and were curious and tinkered with the world, that's coming back now.
[06:47.030 --> 06:53.430] [SPEAKER_10]: So I don't know if it's going to overwhelm the pejorative sense, but certainly it's back with a force now.
[06:53.570 --> 06:58.050] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think you could say, I'm a hacker and people want to immediately feel, oh my God, are you going to ruin my computer?
[06:58.890 --> 06:59.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it depends.
[06:59.530 --> 07:02.510] [SPEAKER_04]: If you work for mass media, I think that's the impression that you convey.
[07:03.350 --> 07:12.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, as far as you mentioned that some of the hacker spirit might be lost with the success of computers and I guess more money coming in.
[07:12.390 --> 07:16.090] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's what happened with the dot-com era in the 1990s.
[07:16.090 --> 07:17.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think that affected hacking in a bad way?
[07:18.430 --> 07:19.350] [SPEAKER_10]: No, I don't think so.
[07:19.390 --> 07:36.750] [SPEAKER_10]: Because the people who did that sort of destructive number on what a dot-com meant back then in the 1990s were the greed heads who weren't the hackers, but the people who jumped in and tried to get in there and run the companies.
[07:36.890 --> 07:42.570] [SPEAKER_10]: Back in the back office, the hackers were doing what they always did, which was to build the stuff.
[07:46.090 --> 07:51.790] [SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes that affects, I guess, your motivation and your loyalty and things like that.
[07:52.310 --> 08:01.790] [SPEAKER_04]: I saw a lot of people in the 1990s just kind of change from being altruistic to just sort of wanting more, you know, wanting more cars and houses and just money.
[08:02.250 --> 08:03.370] [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, all that fell apart.
[08:03.450 --> 08:05.550] [SPEAKER_04]: And for one, I was kind of glad when it did.
[08:05.730 --> 08:09.850] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, there was a nice karmic edge to it, wasn't there, when some of those people.
[08:09.850 --> 08:17.850] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think, you know, one really dramatic instance of that was when some of the Linux companies, you know, went public.
[08:17.850 --> 08:25.410] [SPEAKER_10]: And for a while, they had these unbelievable valuations, you know, the SourceForge stuff and those companies there.
[08:25.410 --> 08:33.310] [SPEAKER_10]: And you had people who stood for open software all of a sudden being, you know, through no fault of their own, multimillionaires.
[08:33.630 --> 08:35.910] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, some of them really didn't know how to handle it.
[08:35.910 --> 08:37.930] [SPEAKER_10]: But things found their own level.
[08:38.070 --> 08:42.350] [SPEAKER_10]: And now those people are, you know, I guess, back on the hustings for open-source again.
[08:42.710 --> 08:43.450] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, absolutely.
[08:43.750 --> 08:45.410] [SPEAKER_10]: What do you think of the whole open-source movement?
[08:45.890 --> 08:46.670] [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's great.
[08:46.690 --> 09:00.090] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think if you really hang out at some of the big companies like Google or even Apple, you find that they rely on open-source to, you know, keep their company going there.
[09:00.210 --> 09:03.570] [SPEAKER_10]: So I think it's so embedded in the system now that it really is here to stay.
[09:03.570 --> 09:08.050] [SPEAKER_10]: It's been an amazing sort of back office revolution that's happened with open-source.
[09:08.550 --> 09:16.270] [SPEAKER_04]: What got you involved from the beginning when you first got involved in computers and then your interest in what hacking was all about?
[09:16.270 --> 09:17.510] [SPEAKER_04]: What motivated you?
[09:17.670 --> 09:25.310] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I was an English major type, a freelance writer, writing for different publications in the very early 1980s.
[09:25.430 --> 09:28.110] [SPEAKER_10]: And someone suggested I do a story on computer hackers.
[09:28.350 --> 09:29.270] [SPEAKER_10]: This is 1981.
[09:30.210 --> 09:31.950] [SPEAKER_10]: I'd never touched a computer before.
[09:32.330 --> 09:49.650] [SPEAKER_10]: And at that time, the definition of hacker really didn't go to something destructive or something great, but more described a personality type, a kind of person that doesn't take a bath and just sits in front of a computer and can't talk to other people.
[09:49.710 --> 10:02.970] [SPEAKER_10]: And you have these articles in Psychology Today with people with flies buzzing around them and saying, like, this is a hacker, you know, what a weird person this is, and not a person you'd want to hang out with.
[10:03.130 --> 10:11.290] [SPEAKER_10]: But when I went out to California to do the story, I did it for Rolling Stone, I was just totally blown away by these people.
[10:11.610 --> 10:14.470] [SPEAKER_10]: What really impressed me, first of all, they weren't antisocial.
[10:14.650 --> 10:15.370] [SPEAKER_10]: You got them talking.
[10:15.450 --> 10:16.130] [SPEAKER_10]: They couldn't stop.
[10:16.350 --> 10:23.470] [SPEAKER_10]: But also, the way they viewed the world amazed me because they saw the world as a problem to be solved.
[10:23.790 --> 10:26.330] [SPEAKER_10]: And they solved it in imaginative ways.
[10:26.490 --> 10:27.710] [SPEAKER_10]: They had different ways of looking at things.
[10:27.810 --> 10:33.730] [SPEAKER_10]: And the interesting things they did in programming to solve a problem, they sometimes would apply to the world around them.
[10:33.770 --> 10:35.810] [SPEAKER_10]: And I thought it was a pretty interesting way to look at things.
[10:36.190 --> 10:37.910] [SPEAKER_10]: And I found them pretty creative.
[10:37.950 --> 10:41.170] [SPEAKER_10]: So I decided I wanted to spend more time writing about those people.
[10:41.330 --> 10:43.690] [SPEAKER_10]: And I wound up writing a book about them.
[10:43.810 --> 10:55.790] [SPEAKER_10]: And in the course of doing the book, I think I found sort of shared values among different generations of hackers that you can really tell there's a bedrock set of values that any hacker has.
[10:55.910 --> 10:57.170] [SPEAKER_10]: And I wrote that up in the book.
[10:57.310 --> 10:58.190] [SPEAKER_04]: What are some of those values?
[10:58.730 --> 11:00.550] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I called it the hacker ethic.
[11:00.670 --> 11:03.590] [SPEAKER_10]: One of them, the basic one is information should be free.
[11:04.110 --> 11:06.010] [SPEAKER_10]: And there's been a lot of talk about that.
[11:06.130 --> 11:11.050] [SPEAKER_10]: And Stuart Brand actually hacked that phrase to say information wants to be free.
[11:11.110 --> 11:12.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone says that I said this.
[11:12.630 --> 11:13.410] [SPEAKER_04]: And I never said this.
[11:13.490 --> 11:14.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Information wants to be free.
[11:14.490 --> 11:16.330] [SPEAKER_04]: They say, hey, man, you say information wants to be free.
[11:16.410 --> 11:17.290] [SPEAKER_04]: And yet you sell a magazine.
[11:17.430 --> 11:18.110] [SPEAKER_04]: That makes no sense.
[11:18.910 --> 11:20.370] [SPEAKER_04]: First of all, I never said that.
[11:20.470 --> 11:21.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you're a hacker, aren't you?
[11:21.150 --> 11:21.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[11:21.690 --> 11:23.330] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, information is free.
[11:23.690 --> 11:29.250] [SPEAKER_04]: But magazines and books, you got to pay for those because they're physical things that come out.
[11:29.330 --> 11:31.510] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, you know, that's as true as it gets.
[11:31.990 --> 11:33.630] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, information wants to be free.
[11:33.770 --> 11:34.990] [SPEAKER_04]: Stuart Brand said that.
[11:35.170 --> 11:35.330] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[11:35.510 --> 11:43.570] [SPEAKER_10]: But in terms of the hackers, their core belief was it really was, had nothing to do with laws or anything like that.
[11:43.670 --> 11:44.950] [SPEAKER_10]: They just wanted the information.
[11:45.350 --> 11:47.870] [SPEAKER_10]: At that time, information about computers was hard to get.
[11:48.210 --> 11:50.270] [SPEAKER_10]: And access to computers was hard to get.
[11:50.610 --> 11:51.430] [SPEAKER_10]: Not everyone got it.
[11:51.530 --> 12:00.510] [SPEAKER_10]: So they were desperate to find out everything they could because they weren't going through the normal channels of doing it and, you know, putting on their black shoes and working for IBM.
[12:00.510 --> 12:05.050] [SPEAKER_10]: They were working outside it because they wanted access to the energy of the computer, which was tough to get.
[12:05.210 --> 12:06.850] [SPEAKER_10]: So information was very precious.
[12:06.870 --> 12:10.210] [SPEAKER_10]: And once they had it, they felt it should be shared with someone else.
[12:10.330 --> 12:14.810] [SPEAKER_10]: And when they wrote a program, worked with it.
[12:15.190 --> 12:18.990] [SPEAKER_10]: At MIT, they put the programs on paper tapes, kept them in a drawer.
[12:19.330 --> 12:21.950] [SPEAKER_10]: There was no proprietary nature to the programs.
[12:22.510 --> 12:23.730] [SPEAKER_10]: Anyone could share it.
[12:23.810 --> 12:27.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Anyone could build on it and do something great with it.
[12:27.310 --> 12:28.590] [SPEAKER_10]: That's the way space work came about.
[12:28.790 --> 12:30.150] [SPEAKER_10]: So that was the basis of that.
[12:30.290 --> 12:34.570] [SPEAKER_10]: And the other principles were things like, we don't care who you are, just how you hack.
[12:34.570 --> 12:46.910] [SPEAKER_10]: So no matter what color you were, no matter what age you were, even what gender you were, people just took your hacking for the determination of whether you were a total bozo or someone worth paying attention to.
[12:47.390 --> 12:50.570] [SPEAKER_04]: God, it brings back such good memories because, yeah, that's how it was.
[12:50.650 --> 12:55.630] [SPEAKER_04]: It was, you know, not a whole lot of egos going on, no commercialization whatsoever.
[12:55.690 --> 12:57.310] [SPEAKER_04]: The net was in its infancy.
[12:57.910 --> 13:03.330] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, back then in the early 1980s, people didn't have access to computers like they do now.
[13:04.570 --> 13:05.670] [SPEAKER_04]: I got in trouble back then.
[13:05.830 --> 13:07.810] [SPEAKER_04]: It was because I was curious.
[13:07.810 --> 13:09.870] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to see how this system worked.
[13:10.010 --> 13:11.110] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to communicate with people.
[13:11.230 --> 13:20.450] [SPEAKER_04]: The coolest thing in the world, you could send electronic mail to somebody and they could get it without having to wait for a busy signal to go away for hours sometimes on the same bulletin board that you called.
[13:20.830 --> 13:22.850] [SPEAKER_04]: You could actually send it to a different city.
[13:22.990 --> 13:24.010] [SPEAKER_04]: They could call a different number.
[13:24.690 --> 13:27.750] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was something that most people had no conception of.
[13:27.950 --> 13:28.070] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[13:28.110 --> 13:31.210] [SPEAKER_10]: And that was all built on collaboration and communication.
[13:31.610 --> 13:34.830] [SPEAKER_10]: And the early bulletin boards were total hacker enterprises there.
[13:35.370 --> 13:39.210] [SPEAKER_10]: And that was based on those principles that get the information out.
[13:39.350 --> 13:40.350] [SPEAKER_10]: When you get it, share it.
[13:40.650 --> 13:41.810] [SPEAKER_10]: Nothing's just standing your way.
[13:41.910 --> 13:55.850] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's why hackers just hate bureaucracy because bureaucracy really is about partitioning information, keeping you away from information, creating a hierarchy that stood between you and learning what things were about.
[13:56.110 --> 13:56.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[13:56.870 --> 13:59.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Need to know and security through obscurity and all that.
[13:59.970 --> 14:00.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right.
[14:00.950 --> 14:05.770] [SPEAKER_10]: So authority really should not be respected because that's to keep you away from the information.
[14:06.010 --> 14:08.950] [SPEAKER_10]: And what are the other precepts of the hacker ethic?
[14:09.090 --> 14:15.410] [SPEAKER_10]: And it's weird to say this now because you wouldn't think it need to be stated, but you can create art and beauty on a computer.
[14:15.690 --> 14:19.930] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, by the time I wrote that, that was a really foreign concept to a lot of people.
[14:20.090 --> 14:23.330] [SPEAKER_10]: They thought computers were just for numbers and dull things.
[14:23.590 --> 14:23.710] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[14:24.050 --> 14:29.970] [SPEAKER_10]: So the fact that I even had to say that and, you know, can people raise an eyebrow, really, huh?
[14:31.350 --> 14:32.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Said something about those times.
[14:32.690 --> 14:33.930] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there weren't color screens.
[14:34.090 --> 14:37.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything was either green or amber or something like that.
[14:37.570 --> 14:40.350] [SPEAKER_04]: And the graphics, that was, you know, graphics were unusual.
[14:41.290 --> 14:46.910] [SPEAKER_04]: And did you, was there a period where you realized the potential of what computers could do, what a network could do?
[14:47.290 --> 14:49.890] [SPEAKER_10]: And in those early days, that's what kept me coming back.
[14:50.070 --> 15:01.790] [SPEAKER_10]: Because I, they, the hackers I talked to and the people involved in the personal computer revolution, which really was something which had a big political component to it, opened my eyes to the potential there.
[15:01.890 --> 15:02.770] [SPEAKER_10]: And you could see it.
[15:02.850 --> 15:11.150] [SPEAKER_10]: You could see, once you understood Moore's law, how these things were going to get more and more powerful and work their way into all our lives and be so important to everyone.
[15:11.490 --> 15:12.810] [SPEAKER_10]: And it happened.
[15:13.490 --> 15:15.370] [SPEAKER_10]: It was one of those things that you could see it happening.
[15:15.390 --> 15:24.050] [SPEAKER_10]: And it happened so forcefully that even the most optimistic assessments you could have made back in the early 1980s, turned out to be way short of the mark.
[15:24.310 --> 15:25.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Tell us about Moore's law.
[15:26.030 --> 15:36.110] [SPEAKER_10]: Moore's law is, you know, the estimation by Gordon Moore of Intel about how quickly chips would improve.
[15:36.290 --> 15:46.970] [SPEAKER_10]: So he figured out that every 18 months, the power of chips, the computation you could do on a microchip would double and the price would go down by half.
[15:47.470 --> 15:48.330] [SPEAKER_10]: Does that still happen?
[15:48.570 --> 15:49.150] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, it is.
[15:49.250 --> 15:50.530] [SPEAKER_10]: And it's going to be locked in.
[15:50.650 --> 15:53.470] [SPEAKER_10]: They've got the technical advances to lock it in for another 15 years.
[15:53.690 --> 16:08.070] [SPEAKER_10]: As a matter of fact, I used to rip John Markoff, who covers the chip things, among other things, in Silicon Valley, that he had a template in his computer to write a headline, Moore's law will be extended for five more years as they always found something else to keep it going.
[16:09.070 --> 16:09.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[16:09.790 --> 16:11.570] [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, let's look at the future.
[16:12.110 --> 16:19.310] [SPEAKER_04]: How much more can we possibly obtain through faster computing technology and more access?
[16:19.550 --> 16:25.090] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we're looking at everything from movies to our entire music collection, fast communication.
[16:25.090 --> 16:26.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Where else can this go?
[16:26.430 --> 16:32.630] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, what's happened now is that we're getting an extra push of something that we didn't have before, which is ubiquity.
[16:33.010 --> 16:44.830] [SPEAKER_10]: So the things that have excited a lot of people in the last few years are things dealing with social networking and the kinds of effects that come not only from massive computation and massive storage.
[16:44.850 --> 16:51.950] [SPEAKER_10]: The storage revolution, I think, has turned out to be just as significant in a way as the revolution in computation driven by Moore's law.
[16:52.050 --> 16:56.090] [SPEAKER_10]: That runs even faster than Moore's law in how cheap and powerful storage is.
[16:56.210 --> 17:02.210] [SPEAKER_10]: And now we get this idea of when everyone's connected, certain things can come of that that didn't happen before.
[17:02.450 --> 17:04.650] [SPEAKER_10]: So things move faster and faster and faster.
[17:04.810 --> 17:13.450] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think massive connectivity, pervasive connectivity, is the thing that's going to push amazing things over the next few years.
[17:13.730 --> 17:14.650] [SPEAKER_10]: What was your first computer?
[17:15.350 --> 17:25.190] [SPEAKER_10]: I got... well, immediately upon returning from California after doing that story, you know, back then people were deciding, gee, should I get an electronic typewriter and, you know, replace my electronic computer?
[17:25.370 --> 17:28.910] [SPEAKER_10]: This thing like does one line and you could... don't even have to finish typing the line.
[17:29.050 --> 17:30.130] [SPEAKER_10]: You can correct the thing like that.
[17:30.250 --> 17:36.210] [SPEAKER_10]: I immediately came back and said to my girlfriend, who's now my wife, let's do it.
[17:36.230 --> 17:37.410] [SPEAKER_10]: We bought two Apple computers.
[17:37.850 --> 17:43.730] [SPEAKER_10]: And the bill for the Apple computers to share one printer, dot matrix printer, was $9,500.
[17:44.370 --> 17:44.990] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, my God.
[17:45.510 --> 17:45.790] [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[17:45.950 --> 17:46.510] [SPEAKER_10]: Do you still have it?
[17:46.730 --> 17:47.310] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I do.
[17:47.870 --> 17:48.610] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, good for you.
[17:48.730 --> 17:49.890] [SPEAKER_10]: I haven't fired it up lately.
[17:51.150 --> 17:51.590] [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[17:51.870 --> 17:59.830] [SPEAKER_10]: When I wrote Hackers, you know, this tells us something about storage, is that some chapters were too long to hold on one floppy disk.
[18:00.110 --> 18:04.650] [SPEAKER_10]: Literally, I tried to get one chapter on every floppy disk, but some of them I had to split against two.
[18:05.390 --> 18:05.830] [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[18:06.350 --> 18:08.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Was these hard-sectored or soft-sectored?
[18:08.190 --> 18:09.150] [SPEAKER_04]: That was soft.
[18:09.410 --> 18:09.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[18:10.150 --> 18:10.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Amazing.
[18:11.570 --> 18:18.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Just the history of where this has gone in the last, I guess, 25 years or so.
[18:18.690 --> 18:19.870] [SPEAKER_04]: That's really where it all happened.
[18:20.830 --> 18:22.210] [SPEAKER_04]: It's incredible.
[18:22.630 --> 18:25.850] [SPEAKER_04]: And do you think enough people have access now?
[18:25.930 --> 18:31.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think it's easy to get on the net for people to get access to technology, easier to say than it was back in the 1980s?
[18:31.570 --> 18:33.790] [SPEAKER_10]: It really is, but our demands are higher.
[18:34.010 --> 18:53.170] [SPEAKER_10]: I think this is one thing which is just getting increasingly pissed off is how this country, you know, mainly its government policy, which is the culprit and, you know, the people who aren't doing what we need to do, that we're far behind where we should be in bringing these things out to the people there.
[18:53.410 --> 18:59.010] [SPEAKER_10]: I think pretty much everyone can get hold of a computer, and we've actually done pretty well in getting computers in libraries.
[18:59.250 --> 19:02.490] [SPEAKER_10]: But in big parts of the country, we don't have broadband.
[19:03.130 --> 19:06.290] [SPEAKER_10]: The rest of us pay way too much for way too little broadband.
[19:06.890 --> 19:12.610] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think this is something that holds us back, both creatively and in a business sense.
[19:12.790 --> 19:23.750] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if you saw the story that came out this week, but according to the Associated Press, a new study suggests that attitude rather than availability may be the key reason why more Americans don't have high-speed Internet access.
[19:24.310 --> 19:31.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Only 14% of dial-up users say they're stuck with the older, slower connection technology because they can't get broadband in their neighborhoods.
[19:31.850 --> 19:39.490] [SPEAKER_04]: 35% said they're still on dial-up because broadband prices are too high, while another 19% said nothing would persuade them to upgrade.
[19:39.710 --> 19:43.250] [SPEAKER_04]: So a lot of people seem to be saying no thanks to broadband Internet.
[19:43.330 --> 19:43.770] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you make of that?
[19:43.810 --> 19:45.950] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, well, I saw that study by the Pew.
[19:46.230 --> 19:47.230] [SPEAKER_10]: It's a Pew study.
[19:48.610 --> 19:50.130] [SPEAKER_10]: They're pretty good at studying the Internet.
[19:50.310 --> 19:55.390] [SPEAKER_10]: And if you look down there, you'll find that it's the lower-income people that are actually going backwards.
[19:56.070 --> 20:03.090] [SPEAKER_10]: They are giving up broadband where, you know, you would assume that, wow, once they got it, they should keep going.
[20:03.110 --> 20:04.350] [SPEAKER_10]: But it just costs too much.
[20:04.410 --> 20:06.750] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that that is a huge problem.
[20:07.050 --> 20:08.530] [SPEAKER_10]: It costs too much for everybody.
[20:08.770 --> 20:21.530] [SPEAKER_10]: But particularly if you don't have much money, if you're a family trying to struggle to do all the things you have to do on a low-income, $40 a month for broadband is ridiculous.
[20:21.630 --> 20:22.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, of course.
[20:22.410 --> 20:24.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, do you think there's other parts of the world that are doing it properly?
[20:25.050 --> 20:25.750] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, definitely.
[20:25.930 --> 20:32.990] [SPEAKER_10]: You go to Korea or Japan, broadband, they're getting, you know, like 100 megabits a second for $20 a month or something.
[20:33.270 --> 20:33.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[20:33.810 --> 20:36.110] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're getting it on their wristwatches and everything.
[20:36.170 --> 20:36.870] [SPEAKER_10]: Everywhere, everywhere.
[20:37.030 --> 20:40.030] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, the wireless penetration is pervasive.
[20:40.230 --> 20:46.630] [SPEAKER_10]: And the government, instead of saying, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, we've got to do better, is actually trying to defend what it has.
[20:46.750 --> 20:56.150] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, the way they measure broadband is that they consider a ZIP Code to be equipped with broadband if one place in the entire ZIP Code gets it.
[20:56.450 --> 21:03.810] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, usually it does because we spend a lot of money and there's been foundations doing this to get, make sure the library in town gets located.
[21:04.050 --> 21:09.870] [SPEAKER_10]: So, I spend, you know, some of my summers up in a place in western Massachusetts, 150 miles from New York City.
[21:10.690 --> 21:15.570] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, big cultural area, not, you know, across the state from Boston, no broadband.
[21:15.810 --> 21:25.190] [SPEAKER_10]: I have to, on a Sunday, I have to schlep my computer to a food court in a shopping mall in order to get connected in broadband and download a tune or something.
[21:25.190 --> 21:29.350] [SPEAKER_04]: We're talking with Stephen Levy, keynote speaker for the last Hope Conference coming up next week.
[21:29.950 --> 21:32.650] [SPEAKER_04]: And author extraordinaire, you're writing for Wired now?
[21:32.810 --> 21:33.230] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I am.
[21:33.470 --> 21:39.370] [SPEAKER_10]: After 12 years of Newsweek, I've gone over to Wired that I've been affiliated with, actually, since it started.
[21:39.490 --> 21:41.850] [SPEAKER_10]: I wrote the second cover story on cypherpunks.
[21:42.090 --> 21:43.190] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I remember that.
[21:43.430 --> 21:44.670] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember the first issue, too.
[21:44.670 --> 21:49.650] [SPEAKER_10]: That's a great picture of the people with their hashes of the, you know, the PGP hash on their foreheads.
[21:49.650 --> 21:50.470] [SPEAKER_10]: Remember that?
[21:50.650 --> 21:50.990] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah.
[21:51.050 --> 21:55.110] [SPEAKER_10]: And so I finally, you know, joined up with Wired.
[21:55.270 --> 21:57.650] [SPEAKER_10]: Wired has done pretty well over 15 years.
[21:57.790 --> 21:58.750] [SPEAKER_10]: It's 15 years old now.
[21:59.150 --> 22:01.830] [SPEAKER_10]: And now I'll be there full-time.
[22:02.370 --> 22:13.730] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to do a front-of-the-book column, sort of product-oriented, but trying to figure out the psychology of products and different things and then write long stories about stuff I hope is interesting.
[22:13.770 --> 22:15.630] [SPEAKER_04]: And you've got a book coming out, or should we not mention that yet?
[22:15.630 --> 22:16.730] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm working on a book.
[22:17.050 --> 22:20.690] [SPEAKER_10]: My most recent book was about the iPod, The Perfect Thing.
[22:21.710 --> 22:26.430] [SPEAKER_10]: And the book I've started now, but it's a ways from being finished, is about Google.
[22:26.750 --> 22:32.790] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm trying to get inside Google as much as possible and to write a book about what it's like inside Google.
[22:33.050 --> 22:35.550] [SPEAKER_10]: Do they like people going inside them and asking questions?
[22:35.710 --> 22:37.310] [SPEAKER_10]: Not random people walking off the street.
[22:37.570 --> 22:50.790] [SPEAKER_10]: But I've been writing about Google for quite a while, and I was able to convince the brain trust there, Larry, Sergey, Eric, that it would be a good idea to have me come in there and learn about them.
[22:50.890 --> 22:52.330] [SPEAKER_10]: And they signed off on it.
[22:52.450 --> 22:57.910] [SPEAKER_10]: So I hope I'm not going to gain even more weight from Google cafeterias over the next year.
[22:58.050 --> 23:00.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Tell us some of the stories about the Google cafeterias.
[23:00.190 --> 23:00.710] [SPEAKER_04]: I hear rumors.
[23:00.890 --> 23:01.590] [SPEAKER_04]: I hear all sorts of things.
[23:01.750 --> 23:03.430] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, there's, I think, 17 now on campus.
[23:03.650 --> 23:04.910] [SPEAKER_04]: 17 different cafeterias.
[23:04.910 --> 23:05.150] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[23:05.250 --> 23:06.330] [SPEAKER_10]: And of course, it's all free.
[23:06.510 --> 23:06.930] [SPEAKER_10]: All free.
[23:08.290 --> 23:12.690] [SPEAKER_10]: And they are, the big one is called Charlie's.
[23:12.810 --> 23:18.530] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's named after the chef who was the original Google chef who was affiliated with the Grateful Dead.
[23:18.970 --> 23:22.610] [SPEAKER_10]: The story was that some people think that he was the chef for the Grateful Dead.
[23:22.770 --> 23:23.670] [SPEAKER_10]: But I think it just came up.
[23:23.730 --> 23:25.170] [SPEAKER_10]: Sometimes he cooked for the Grateful Dead.
[23:25.270 --> 23:26.150] [SPEAKER_10]: He didn't travel with them.
[23:26.190 --> 23:27.370] [SPEAKER_04]: I never knew the Grateful Dead had a chef.
[23:27.490 --> 23:28.470] [SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of an interesting concept.
[23:28.750 --> 23:28.810] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[23:28.810 --> 23:30.790] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, they travel as a family.
[23:30.950 --> 23:31.250] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[23:31.730 --> 23:32.850] [SPEAKER_10]: And they had one.
[23:33.710 --> 23:34.750] [SPEAKER_10]: But it wasn't Charlie.
[23:35.290 --> 23:38.270] [SPEAKER_10]: So then Charlie, you know, that's a huge cafe with everything.
[23:38.470 --> 23:40.530] [SPEAKER_10]: And then there's other ones that people have their favorites.
[23:41.550 --> 23:45.170] [SPEAKER_10]: The one in the building where a lot of the top executives are, it's called No Name.
[23:45.350 --> 23:50.870] [SPEAKER_10]: And it's really easy to just zip in there and get some, you know, good healthy foods or a sandwich.
[23:51.470 --> 23:53.430] [SPEAKER_10]: But I've been getting at some of the more exotic ones.
[23:54.150 --> 23:57.450] [SPEAKER_10]: The most interesting one so far is they have a tapas cafe.
[23:58.050 --> 23:58.390] [SPEAKER_10]: Do they?
[23:58.390 --> 23:58.730] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[23:58.910 --> 23:59.370] [SPEAKER_10]: Tapas.
[23:59.550 --> 24:05.130] [SPEAKER_10]: There's another one called Oasis, which specializes in pizza and sort of hardcore Oriental food.
[24:05.650 --> 24:13.650] [SPEAKER_10]: And if you look at that, it's a very big contingent of some of the Asian people who work for Google eat there.
[24:14.490 --> 24:22.630] [SPEAKER_10]: And there's one which is based on a Mexican restaurant in town that Sergey used to eat there when he was a graduate student.
[24:22.790 --> 24:25.370] [SPEAKER_10]: And he convinced them to operate a franchise at Google.
[24:25.390 --> 24:27.890] [SPEAKER_10]: The only difference being there's no cash register.
[24:28.410 --> 24:28.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[24:29.510 --> 24:29.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[24:29.970 --> 24:31.810] [SPEAKER_04]: So your hands don't get dirty dealing with money.
[24:32.050 --> 24:32.630] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no.
[24:32.710 --> 24:33.070] [SPEAKER_04]: None of that.
[24:33.490 --> 24:36.750] [SPEAKER_04]: I heard, though, there's a bit of a controversy over at Google concerning daycare.
[24:37.130 --> 24:37.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[24:37.250 --> 24:43.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Apparently, they're cutting a daycare program that people like and replacing it with some other program that people aren't that crazy about.
[24:43.470 --> 24:44.370] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is not free.
[24:44.470 --> 24:45.270] [SPEAKER_04]: They have to pay for that.
[24:45.430 --> 24:45.610] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[24:45.710 --> 24:47.150] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you have to pay for the daycare.
[24:47.250 --> 24:48.290] [SPEAKER_10]: And it's kind of interesting.
[24:48.290 --> 24:52.190] [SPEAKER_10]: These things get aired out in these Friday sessions called TGIF.
[24:52.630 --> 25:01.310] [SPEAKER_10]: And every Friday, you know, it's usually Sergey and Larry, sometimes Eric get up there and they take questions from any Googler.
[25:01.710 --> 25:04.430] [SPEAKER_10]: And they do it in Charlie's, of course.
[25:04.550 --> 25:09.290] [SPEAKER_10]: And the place is packed and people watch remote locations, watch it from high definition screens.
[25:09.510 --> 25:11.430] [SPEAKER_10]: And sometimes people ask really hostile questions.
[25:11.590 --> 25:15.290] [SPEAKER_10]: This daycare thing was, you know, really acrimonious in and out there.
[25:15.410 --> 25:19.870] [SPEAKER_10]: And I don't think it was necessarily a case of Google trying to screw the employees.
[25:20.010 --> 25:23.330] [SPEAKER_10]: They just felt, boy, we should do something really amazing with daycare.
[25:23.770 --> 25:31.190] [SPEAKER_10]: And in this case, they adopted something which wound up costing so much that they really couldn't support it on a massive scale there.
[25:31.350 --> 25:35.190] [SPEAKER_10]: What happens is that they want to rethink every aspect of business.
[25:35.330 --> 25:40.630] [SPEAKER_10]: And sometimes they screw up because they're trying zillions of different things.
[25:40.830 --> 25:43.230] [SPEAKER_10]: So sometimes things are really successful.
[25:43.390 --> 25:47.850] [SPEAKER_10]: It's sort of counterintuitive to think if we give away free food, it'll be a big win for us.
[25:47.950 --> 25:49.250] [SPEAKER_10]: But they think it's a huge win.
[25:49.650 --> 26:00.310] [SPEAKER_10]: Not so much because people get fat there, but because they encourage people to come and sit at tables with people in different parts of the company.
[26:00.490 --> 26:04.970] [SPEAKER_10]: So by doing that, they'll learn, people learn about different things, what's going on in the company.
[26:05.190 --> 26:10.770] [SPEAKER_10]: They'll make connections to help people, you know, make partnerships and come up with different things.
[26:10.870 --> 26:12.670] [SPEAKER_10]: And they're pretty happy with the way that's worked out.
[26:12.790 --> 26:14.030] [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm actually interviewing people.
[26:14.150 --> 26:19.830] [SPEAKER_10]: I found quite a lot of people who say, you know, I wound up hearing about this while sitting at lunch one day.
[26:19.970 --> 26:23.470] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, they got ideas for projects, which were good for Google.
[26:23.910 --> 26:29.810] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you ever seen a company like Google before with these kinds of, I don't know, high ideals, I suppose?
[26:30.570 --> 26:35.130] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, there's been a lot of companies that started thinking we could do it differently.
[26:35.330 --> 26:40.390] [SPEAKER_10]: But Google really tries to do things differently in every aspect.
[26:40.610 --> 26:53.730] [SPEAKER_10]: And what's enabled them to do it when other companies haven't is they've got this amazing money machine, which puts, you know, which makes failure in any given aspect not so terrible.
[26:53.990 --> 26:56.150] [SPEAKER_10]: Because they try something, it doesn't work.
[26:56.330 --> 27:04.130] [SPEAKER_10]: It doesn't matter because the ads are bringing in the money and keeping the whole enterprise going.
[27:04.350 --> 27:14.090] [SPEAKER_10]: So they can afford to take risks, they can afford to take very long bets, they can afford to start a project and not worry immediately, my God, how are we going to make a profit on this?
[27:14.250 --> 27:16.630] [SPEAKER_10]: For instance, there's no ads on Google News to this day.
[27:16.870 --> 27:17.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[27:17.510 --> 27:22.630] [SPEAKER_04]: And the main Google page, for the most part, looks pretty sparse compared to many other places.
[27:23.290 --> 27:25.250] [SPEAKER_04]: So does your Google book have a title yet?
[27:25.550 --> 27:26.170] [SPEAKER_10]: Not really.
[27:26.490 --> 27:27.430] [SPEAKER_10]: I'll take suggestions.
[27:27.570 --> 27:27.810] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[27:28.150 --> 27:28.990] [SPEAKER_04]: And when do you think it'll be out?
[27:29.050 --> 27:29.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Another year, perhaps?
[27:29.950 --> 27:30.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Perhaps.
[27:31.110 --> 27:33.510] [SPEAKER_10]: Probably, you know, the year olds will be like the end of next year.
[27:33.990 --> 27:34.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Cool.
[27:34.390 --> 27:36.030] [SPEAKER_04]: That sounds like a fascinating subject.
[27:36.530 --> 27:37.830] [SPEAKER_04]: We're talking with Stephen Levy.
[27:37.970 --> 27:38.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Bernie S.
[27:38.550 --> 27:39.970] [SPEAKER_04]: is joining us now from Philadelphia, I believe.
[27:40.190 --> 27:44.210] [SPEAKER_18]: I actually know I'm from still in the nether regions of northeastern Pennsylvania.
[27:44.490 --> 27:44.890] [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[27:44.950 --> 27:46.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Hence the difficulty reaching you before.
[27:47.110 --> 27:49.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Bernie, I'd like to introduce you to Stephen Levy, our keynote speaker.
[27:49.690 --> 27:50.210] [SPEAKER_18]: Hello, Stephen.
[27:50.350 --> 27:55.330] [SPEAKER_18]: Looking forward to meeting you at the... Actually, I've met you before at the Trenton Computer Festival years ago.
[27:55.330 --> 27:55.550] [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[27:55.890 --> 27:57.430] [SPEAKER_18]: But it'll be good to hear you speak.
[27:57.670 --> 28:01.770] [SPEAKER_18]: Looking forward to your keynote speech at the HOPE Conference.
[28:02.030 --> 28:02.510] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, good.
[28:02.670 --> 28:04.610] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, best to you in the picture-else Poconos.
[28:06.050 --> 28:06.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[28:06.530 --> 28:09.810] [SPEAKER_04]: I was wondering if anybody here has any questions for Stephen.
[28:10.070 --> 28:11.950] [SPEAKER_04]: We have about 50 people in the studio.
[28:12.490 --> 28:17.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody have anything they'd like to ask about the past, the present, the future of computers?
[28:17.470 --> 28:18.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Lex, it looks like you have something.
[28:18.590 --> 28:21.650] [SPEAKER_15]: I'm kind of wondering what you're expecting from the HOPE Conference.
[28:22.450 --> 28:27.710] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I've actually been... I'm not sure one or two, but I have been to the HOPE Conference.
[28:27.930 --> 28:35.090] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm expecting, you know, a lot of, you know, people in t-shirts who are interested in my subject.
[28:35.370 --> 28:36.190] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, these are my people.
[28:36.650 --> 28:54.650] [SPEAKER_10]: I love, just love hanging out with hackers because, as I said before, the way they see the world just is... I think it's fascinating and something that everyone could learn from and something that, over the years, I put a lot of effort into hoping to chronicle in a decent way.
[28:54.810 --> 28:58.030] [SPEAKER_10]: People often ask me, boy, are you ever going to do a sequel to Hackers?
[28:58.170 --> 29:08.730] [SPEAKER_10]: But to me, I've written, like, five sequels to Hackers because pretty much everything I write is built on the things that come out of the creativity that Hackers do.
[29:08.890 --> 29:14.150] [SPEAKER_04]: I should point out that Stephen wrote the book called Hackers, but he had nothing to do with the movie called Hackers.
[29:14.230 --> 29:14.470] [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[29:14.470 --> 29:14.870] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[29:15.210 --> 29:16.310] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think of that, by the way?
[29:17.310 --> 29:23.710] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, I guess it was in giving Angelina Jolie to the world, you know, it had some benefit there.
[29:24.330 --> 29:25.550] [SPEAKER_10]: I wish they hadn't used my title.
[29:25.550 --> 29:32.430] [SPEAKER_04]: It was so cool hanging out with her back then when she was just, she was so young and shy and just hanging out in the streets in the West Village.
[29:32.430 --> 29:33.550] [SPEAKER_10]: But the lips were big even then, weren't they?
[29:33.590 --> 29:33.850] [SPEAKER_04]: They were.
[29:33.970 --> 29:34.410] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they were.
[29:34.950 --> 29:36.130] [SPEAKER_10]: So she could, you know...
[29:36.130 --> 29:36.790] [SPEAKER_10]: She was really nice.
[29:36.930 --> 29:38.270] [SPEAKER_10]: She could pull that movie out and say...
[29:38.270 --> 29:39.630] [SPEAKER_04]: She didn't think she was a good actress.
[29:39.750 --> 29:40.570] [SPEAKER_04]: That was the funny thing.
[29:40.690 --> 29:43.290] [SPEAKER_04]: She was, like, so hesitant to even star in another movie.
[29:44.170 --> 29:45.250] [SPEAKER_04]: And I told her, you know what?
[29:45.310 --> 29:47.190] [SPEAKER_04]: You just got to reach for the sky and keep going.
[29:47.310 --> 29:48.570] [SPEAKER_04]: And she said, you know, I'm going to do it.
[29:49.250 --> 29:49.670] [SPEAKER_10]: That's good.
[29:49.750 --> 29:50.150] [SPEAKER_10]: You're welcome.
[29:50.250 --> 29:50.930] [SPEAKER_04]: You're welcome, Angelina.
[29:51.390 --> 29:51.550] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[29:52.170 --> 29:53.510] [SPEAKER_10]: I know the two of you are so close.
[29:53.650 --> 29:53.970] [SPEAKER_10]: It's beautiful.
[29:54.090 --> 29:55.690] [SPEAKER_04]: No, she actually came to a 2600 meeting.
[29:55.930 --> 29:56.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, really?
[29:56.030 --> 29:56.950] [SPEAKER_04]: In rollerblades.
[29:57.190 --> 29:58.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was a sight.
[29:58.810 --> 29:59.850] [SPEAKER_04]: I think she got kicked out of the building.
[30:00.730 --> 30:02.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Because they don't allow that in Citigroup.
[30:02.630 --> 30:03.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Rob, do you have a question?
[30:04.150 --> 30:16.330] [SPEAKER_01]: I was wondering what you think of, speaking of the Hope Conference, what you think of the evolution of hacker culture, where we've gotten to the point from, you know, those basements in the 1960s and 1970s to today when we can have something as huge and as public as Hope.
[30:17.810 --> 30:20.130] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, again, really, really encouraging.
[30:20.430 --> 30:25.050] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, it's great to see those things spring up.
[30:25.130 --> 30:28.450] [SPEAKER_10]: And I watch the evolution of conferences like that.
[30:28.850 --> 30:51.550] [SPEAKER_10]: It sprung up in the, you know, the odd relationship with, you know, there's a jargon for it, the white hats, the black hats, the, you know, there's always some cool, believe it or not, law enforcement people who, you know, who get it and, you know, hang out without being judgmental about it.
[30:51.670 --> 30:56.450] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, don't try to stop the main flow of the activity there.
[30:56.950 --> 30:59.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Although one of our panelists did get arrested last time.
[30:59.510 --> 30:59.850] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, really?
[31:00.090 --> 31:03.990] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, actually, as a private investigator, Steve Rombaum got arrested by the federal authorities.
[31:04.110 --> 31:05.490] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's giving a three-hour talk this year.
[31:05.590 --> 31:06.470] [SPEAKER_04]: So that should be interesting.
[31:07.270 --> 31:08.570] [SPEAKER_04]: All charges, of course, didn't go anywhere.
[31:08.570 --> 31:09.850] [SPEAKER_15]: He got arrested for...
[31:10.650 --> 31:14.070] [SPEAKER_04]: The feds took exception to something that he was doing.
[31:14.190 --> 31:16.290] [SPEAKER_04]: They accused him of interfering with something they were doing.
[31:16.610 --> 31:21.110] [SPEAKER_04]: And it turns out that that apparently had no merit and they dropped all charges and never pursued it.
[31:21.210 --> 31:23.050] [SPEAKER_04]: So he'll be talking about that at the conference as well.
[31:23.110 --> 31:24.870] [SPEAKER_04]: He's giving a three-hour talk on Saturday night.
[31:25.030 --> 31:26.370] [SPEAKER_04]: And you're talking Saturday afternoon.
[31:26.570 --> 31:26.730] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[31:26.810 --> 31:27.510] [SPEAKER_10]: Not for three hours.
[31:27.590 --> 31:29.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Not for three hours, unless you want to.
[31:29.170 --> 31:31.070] [SPEAKER_04]: But the whole schedule then will be behind by three hours.
[31:31.310 --> 31:33.530] [SPEAKER_10]: I just came from... I was in Cuba earlier this month.
[31:33.670 --> 31:34.850] [SPEAKER_10]: So, you know, like I...
[31:34.850 --> 31:36.270] [SPEAKER_10]: But I didn't hear one of those Fidel speeches.
[31:36.530 --> 31:36.890] [SPEAKER_10]: Hang on.
[31:36.890 --> 31:37.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Hang on.
[31:37.330 --> 31:37.910] [SPEAKER_04]: You were in Cuba.
[31:37.970 --> 31:38.650] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's hear about this.
[31:38.730 --> 31:40.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Because Mike and I traveled to Cuba a couple of years ago.
[31:40.590 --> 31:44.210] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've been talking about it on the air and getting all kinds of mail from listeners about how to travel to Cuba.
[31:44.270 --> 31:45.090] [SPEAKER_04]: But we went as journalists.
[31:45.410 --> 31:46.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you go legally?
[31:46.250 --> 31:47.470] [SPEAKER_10]: I did go legally.
[31:47.670 --> 31:52.370] [SPEAKER_10]: And I didn't go as a journalist because it was sort of a family vacation.
[31:53.410 --> 31:55.630] [SPEAKER_10]: But I went as a family visit.
[31:55.950 --> 32:07.130] [SPEAKER_10]: Actually, my wife has a relative who works for the State Department in our interest section, it's called, of, you know, in Cuba.
[32:07.390 --> 32:08.630] [SPEAKER_10]: We have a building there.
[32:09.270 --> 32:11.990] [SPEAKER_02]: With all these flags surrounding it.
[32:12.010 --> 32:12.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly.
[32:12.470 --> 32:12.890] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah.
[32:13.110 --> 32:14.170] [SPEAKER_10]: There's an amazing story there.
[32:14.190 --> 32:17.670] [SPEAKER_10]: So the year in the U.S., you know, in the building, they tried to do with a news ticker.
[32:18.370 --> 32:18.730] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[32:18.970 --> 32:22.530] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, to give uncensored news to the Cuban people.
[32:22.910 --> 32:26.990] [SPEAKER_10]: And Cuba put up these flags, you know, like 83 flags.
[32:27.130 --> 32:34.970] [SPEAKER_10]: I think one for each person who died in some plane crash that, you know, you know, there was some, you know, data about why the plane went down.
[32:35.250 --> 32:35.350] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[32:35.450 --> 32:38.030] [SPEAKER_10]: And so they did to block the thing.
[32:38.030 --> 32:53.170] [SPEAKER_10]: And the other thing is that in the office of the consul, the equivalent of the consul, it's not an official consul, our building overlooks the Malecon, which is the really beautiful, you know, walkway by the, you know, the water there.
[32:53.170 --> 32:53.650] [SPEAKER_10]: Right, right.
[32:54.210 --> 32:54.910] [SPEAKER_10]: By the Gulf.
[32:55.250 --> 33:00.330] [SPEAKER_10]: And to block the view, they put up these two big propaganda billboards.
[33:00.990 --> 33:10.910] [SPEAKER_10]: So every day, you know, the guy who looks out his window, instead of seeing the beautiful Gulf of Mexico, has to see these, you know, the billboards, you know, proclaiming the revolution.
[33:11.290 --> 33:11.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[33:12.070 --> 33:12.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Nice man.
[33:12.470 --> 33:12.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, Kevin.
[33:12.970 --> 33:14.810] [SPEAKER_15]: Now, jump back to the question of the hack revolution.
[33:15.130 --> 33:17.070] [SPEAKER_15]: Where do you see hackers going next?
[33:17.250 --> 33:18.210] [SPEAKER_15]: What's the next step?
[33:18.210 --> 33:26.430] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think what happens is that more and more hackerism gets into the culture there.
[33:26.610 --> 33:39.030] [SPEAKER_10]: I think, you know, for hackers, really, things are unlimited because as things get more and more connected, the opportunities in all directions, good and bad, you know, just multiply there.
[33:39.250 --> 33:44.750] [SPEAKER_10]: So I think in some senses, there's, you know, scary consequences that can come.
[33:44.750 --> 33:59.610] [SPEAKER_10]: If you really think about the power that people potentially could have to shut things down and how things aren't shut down, it really says a lot for, you know, a lot of people who at one point might have thought, you know, it might cross their mind, hey,
[33:59.650 --> 34:01.010] [SPEAKER_10]: it would be interesting to shut things down.
[34:01.010 --> 34:08.470] [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, I think there's a general sense of responsibility among, you know, the overall hacker community, which keeps things going.
[34:08.610 --> 34:19.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the thing that bothers me is that every time something does go wrong, every time, say, some entity loses 10,000 bits of personal data, credit card numbers, social security numbers, things like that.
[34:19.830 --> 34:31.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Even though it's their incompetence and lack of security that led to losing this information, somehow hackers get blamed because they say that hackers can now get a hold of this information because it was lost.
[34:31.470 --> 34:38.170] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's amazing how they are blamed for something that they had no connection to at all, just theoretically.
[34:38.490 --> 34:44.270] [SPEAKER_04]: And to this day, I think their name is maligned, unfairly, because of things like this.
[34:44.550 --> 34:45.170] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but what...
[34:45.170 --> 34:47.710] [SPEAKER_10]: I guess that comes from the definition.
[34:48.250 --> 34:54.930] [SPEAKER_10]: So you say someone working in Bulgaria who's basically engaged in straight criminal activities, right?
[34:55.110 --> 34:58.890] [SPEAKER_10]: Not really interested in doing innovative things with a computer.
[34:58.890 --> 34:59.410] [SPEAKER_10]: Not at all, yes.
[34:59.410 --> 35:11.430] [SPEAKER_10]: But maybe even gets hold of some scripts and doesn't even do the coding by himself and winds up stealing a lot of things, just trafficking in credit cards.
[35:12.050 --> 35:21.070] [SPEAKER_10]: I guess by one definition, you would call that person or that person could be called a hacker, but certainly not by the definition that I grew up with.
[35:21.070 --> 35:29.290] [SPEAKER_10]: And to me, it's disappointing that things have taken the direction that there are genuinely people who do that kind of crap.
[35:29.630 --> 35:38.210] [SPEAKER_10]: And it really is unfortunate because there was a time when that was extremely rare, when people who had the technical expertise would never do that kind of thing.
[35:38.330 --> 35:44.830] [SPEAKER_10]: It would be very rare for someone to engage in dark side activities, straightforward for money.
[35:44.830 --> 35:50.850] [SPEAKER_10]: There used to be, there was a time where there would always be some sort of technical wizardry, which would be the main factor.
[35:51.330 --> 35:57.730] [SPEAKER_04]: So I see no connection at all to hacking there because maybe they're using technology in some way that a hacker was able to figure out.
[35:58.090 --> 36:00.330] [SPEAKER_04]: But as you say, they're not interested at all in that.
[36:00.410 --> 36:04.090] [SPEAKER_04]: They're just interested in making money or causing destruction or something.
[36:04.630 --> 36:10.350] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, you might be using hacker abilities that have already been defined for you, but that doesn't make you a hacker.
[36:10.350 --> 36:10.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[36:11.170 --> 36:14.110] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, again, who owns the definition of the word?
[36:14.350 --> 36:20.690] [SPEAKER_10]: So I think we could both agree that those people aren't hackers in the sense that we think of hackers.
[36:21.810 --> 36:33.090] [SPEAKER_10]: But some people can talk about them and say, oh, hackers in, you know, in Estonia or Russia or China or whatever stole these credit card numbers.
[36:33.230 --> 36:38.230] [SPEAKER_10]: And it would have a value in communication with two people talking to say that.
[36:38.230 --> 36:39.830] [SPEAKER_10]: And really, you can't stop that.
[36:40.030 --> 36:47.890] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it just bothers me that whenever something goes wrong, security-wise, identity theft or something like that, the default demon is always hackers.
[36:48.070 --> 36:53.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Not criminals, not corporate executives who don't care and don't protect the information in the first place.
[36:53.250 --> 36:56.550] [SPEAKER_04]: But if this information is lost, hackers are the ones that are going to get hold of it.
[36:56.710 --> 37:09.150] [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, the opposite, I think, is true, where hackers are the ones that are safeguarding information, teaching people about encryption, teaching people how to retain their information and not give out certain vital bits to people who have no right to it in the first place.
[37:09.190 --> 37:12.510] [SPEAKER_04]: For instance, you don't have to give your social security number to the phone companies.
[37:12.510 --> 37:13.710] [SPEAKER_04]: You can give them any number.
[37:13.870 --> 37:17.090] [SPEAKER_04]: And as long as you match that number in the future, that'll be fine.
[37:17.150 --> 37:18.810] [SPEAKER_04]: That's one bit of information they don't have then.
[37:19.230 --> 37:19.590] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[37:19.690 --> 37:24.190] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we did a cover story on identity theft a couple of years ago in Newsweek.
[37:24.190 --> 37:31.930] [SPEAKER_10]: And what really struck me was how much the companies who store your information were responsible for that.
[37:32.130 --> 37:46.990] [SPEAKER_10]: And a simple change in the laws to make them responsible when there's an incursion, when they lose a laptop with everyone's personal information on it, or when a criminal somewhere does get hold of these numbers.
[37:47.390 --> 37:50.650] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, quite often it's actually someone inside who just steals the numbers.
[37:50.750 --> 37:50.910] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[37:51.090 --> 37:53.350] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, and then passes them on.
[37:53.610 --> 37:54.610] [SPEAKER_10]: Again, no hacking involved.
[37:55.650 --> 38:04.070] [SPEAKER_10]: But to make them responsible for it, somehow I bet they would tighten up their procedures and you would see a lot fewer problems like that.
[38:04.130 --> 38:09.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Bernie, I know this is one of your pet peeves that the people aren't ever held responsible for this kind of thing.
[38:09.750 --> 38:22.970] [SPEAKER_18]: No, there's really little or no accountability by the individuals at the companies who are ultimately responsible for the leaking of our private information en masse.
[38:23.730 --> 38:38.890] [SPEAKER_18]: And other countries have really strict privacy laws against this, and companies and individuals really have to pay and be held accountable for it, but not the United States because in our country the information industry, credit bureaus, that sort of thing,
[38:39.410 --> 38:45.650] [SPEAKER_18]: clearing houses, they have such a strong lobbying arm in Washington that money talks.
[38:45.990 --> 38:48.150] [SPEAKER_18]: So they get laws crafted in their favor.
[38:48.990 --> 38:53.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think we have less privacy now than we had 20 years ago?
[38:53.390 --> 38:53.990] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, definitely.
[38:54.690 --> 38:54.990] [SPEAKER_10]: Definitely.
[38:55.430 --> 39:01.550] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, I think Scott McNeely was the person who said, your privacy is lost, get over it.
[39:02.030 --> 39:05.430] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, there was a lot of, he took a lot of heat for that.
[39:05.430 --> 39:10.930] [SPEAKER_10]: But I think, generally, you know, it's pretty tough to maintain your privacy now.
[39:11.390 --> 39:15.890] [SPEAKER_10]: That's one of the dark sides of having everything easily searchable.
[39:16.230 --> 39:22.250] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, what we have now, even though we have legal encryption, people don't use it.
[39:22.530 --> 39:22.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[39:23.090 --> 39:23.670] [SPEAKER_10]: Why is that?
[39:23.810 --> 39:24.810] [SPEAKER_10]: It's not built in.
[39:25.090 --> 39:29.990] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, in order for it to be effective, it really would have to be built into everything we do.
[39:30.130 --> 39:31.230] [SPEAKER_10]: It would have to be the default.
[39:31.390 --> 39:31.670] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[39:31.670 --> 39:35.050] [SPEAKER_10]: That, you know, you wouldn't be turning on encryption.
[39:35.290 --> 39:36.310] [SPEAKER_10]: It should be on.
[39:36.490 --> 39:39.370] [SPEAKER_10]: And for some reason, if you didn't want it, you should turn it off.
[39:39.510 --> 39:41.070] [SPEAKER_10]: But we don't have that.
[39:41.210 --> 39:50.910] [SPEAKER_04]: It seems like people using PGP, it seems like they spend most of the time trying to figure out how to make sure that they're handshaking properly between versions and exchanging the right keys.
[39:51.030 --> 39:56.530] [SPEAKER_04]: And by the time they actually get around to sending a message, about four or five unencrypted emails have gone back and forth trying to get it to work properly.
[39:56.530 --> 39:57.290] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[39:57.530 --> 39:57.570] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[39:57.750 --> 39:59.910] [SPEAKER_10]: So this stuff is way too hard to use.
[40:00.070 --> 40:04.890] [SPEAKER_10]: And there have been programs like Lotus Notes, for instance, which had built-in encryption.
[40:05.510 --> 40:14.230] [SPEAKER_10]: And the guy who did notes is this guy, Ray Ozzy, who later did a program called Groove, which is a collaboration program with strong encryption.
[40:14.230 --> 40:15.370] [SPEAKER_10]: Again, built in.
[40:15.450 --> 40:25.170] [SPEAKER_10]: No one even knew it was there, but if you ever tried to intercept something, you know, or break into one of those sessions, you would find it pretty hard to get into.
[40:25.170 --> 40:29.730] [SPEAKER_10]: They have, you know, really government-level encryption just rolling on that thing.
[40:30.030 --> 40:35.330] [SPEAKER_10]: So there have been times where software has had it really effective.
[40:35.490 --> 40:42.850] [SPEAKER_10]: But right now, I send the message to you on exchange or, you know, really any email system, that's not automatically encrypted.
[40:42.930 --> 40:43.410] [SPEAKER_10]: Why is that?
[40:43.990 --> 40:44.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[40:44.450 --> 40:45.950] [SPEAKER_04]: It wouldn't be very difficult to do this.
[40:46.410 --> 40:52.990] [SPEAKER_04]: But again, I guess we are at war and we have to protect our nation and our government has to read everything we say and listen to all our phone calls.
[40:52.990 --> 41:02.690] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, then people can listen to what we say and find out stuff about us, you know, even if we're talking about things which could be of value to people who would do harm.
[41:02.910 --> 41:03.630] [SPEAKER_10]: That's open too.
[41:03.850 --> 41:04.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[41:04.650 --> 41:11.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's also the many instances of people voluntarily giving out information they don't need to give out, social networking sites, for instance.
[41:11.730 --> 41:15.610] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you make of the explosion and popularity of things like Facebook and MySpace?
[41:15.610 --> 41:28.030] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's interesting how much is a generational thing that younger people don't feel it's so important to be all that private.
[41:28.950 --> 41:36.970] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, sometimes, you know, people of, you know, from the older generation, baby boomers, are appalled at that.
[41:37.150 --> 41:39.070] [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, it'll be interesting to see.
[41:39.070 --> 41:56.450] [SPEAKER_10]: I think the test will be 30 years from now when, you know, someone nominates some woman for the Supreme Court, whether, you know, it's going to make a difference that people have pictures of her, you know, the drinking and toking from some Facebook file,
[41:56.870 --> 41:58.970] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, in 2006.
[41:59.310 --> 42:03.130] [SPEAKER_04]: But, I mean, that's nothing compared to some of the information people post on these things.
[42:03.210 --> 42:06.070] [SPEAKER_04]: They post all kinds, every intimate thought and detail.
[42:06.070 --> 42:11.250] [SPEAKER_04]: They post their entire class schedules, their home address, pictures of their dog and their family where they went on vacation.
[42:11.750 --> 42:18.850] [SPEAKER_04]: Inside of two minutes, you could be sitting in a Starbucks looking at some guy's playable, shareable iTunes library.
[42:19.210 --> 42:23.290] [SPEAKER_04]: And inside of a couple of minutes, you've got his entire life story and he's not even aware that you're there.
[42:23.590 --> 42:24.070] [SPEAKER_04]: That's scary.
[42:24.070 --> 42:25.390] [SPEAKER_10]: I love the idea of looking at the iTunes library.
[42:25.850 --> 42:37.230] [SPEAKER_10]: To me, the one thing I want to see on iPods, and I was amazed Microsoft didn't do this on the Zune, which is connected wirelessly, is the chance to see everyone's music library.
[42:37.230 --> 42:38.530] [SPEAKER_10]: I think that could be great.
[42:38.670 --> 42:44.570] [SPEAKER_10]: I'd love to be in the subway and, you know, look around and say, oh my God, who is listening to, you know...
[42:44.570 --> 42:45.550] [SPEAKER_10]: Who's got the Kenny G?
[42:45.810 --> 42:46.530] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, exactly.
[42:47.550 --> 42:48.710] [SPEAKER_10]: Stamp out that person.
[42:48.870 --> 42:50.550] [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, here's a Shelby Lynn fan.
[42:50.610 --> 42:51.170] [SPEAKER_10]: That's pretty cool.
[42:51.350 --> 42:51.570] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[42:51.990 --> 42:57.310] [SPEAKER_19]: I think what's more interesting also is how there's more and more detail to these feeds about people.
[42:57.450 --> 43:01.830] [SPEAKER_19]: So, you know, maybe it started with Facebook that someone would have a status, what I'm up to now.
[43:01.830 --> 43:02.190] [SPEAKER_19]: Mm-hmm.
[43:02.490 --> 43:10.310] [SPEAKER_19]: And then you move down to things like Twitter where somebody's sending, you know, every hour or a couple times a day, you know, by text message or by going online, what they're doing.
[43:10.310 --> 43:14.950] [SPEAKER_19]: So you could get a look at someone's page and, you know, know what they've been up to for the past week if you really wanted to.
[43:15.190 --> 43:23.070] [SPEAKER_19]: And so it's like that, you know, Facebook and MySpace and all that kind of gave you a broad overview, and now you're getting this more fine-grained, more detailed look into somebody's life.
[43:23.170 --> 43:23.430] [SPEAKER_19]: Mm-hmm.
[43:23.470 --> 43:24.470] [SPEAKER_19]: And not only people...
[43:24.470 --> 43:25.410] [SPEAKER_19]: It's hugely popular.
[43:25.470 --> 43:25.810] [SPEAKER_19]: It is.
[43:25.810 --> 43:27.870] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Obama Twitters, right?
[43:27.990 --> 43:29.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And so does the Mars Lander.
[43:29.850 --> 43:31.870] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a Twitter feed coming from the Mars Lander.
[43:31.950 --> 43:32.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Tell me where it's up to.
[43:32.530 --> 43:34.290] [SPEAKER_10]: I had a great Twitter moment, you know.
[43:34.470 --> 43:35.290] [SPEAKER_10]: It's sort of a modest.
[43:35.470 --> 43:37.010] [SPEAKER_10]: But I...
[43:37.010 --> 43:41.510] [SPEAKER_10]: One of my Twitter, you know, things I follow was called Twitter Lit.
[43:41.830 --> 43:42.610] [SPEAKER_10]: You ever hear of this?
[43:42.750 --> 43:43.490] [SPEAKER_10]: Twitter Lit.
[43:43.690 --> 43:44.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Twitter Lit.
[43:44.510 --> 43:44.690] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[43:44.890 --> 43:48.030] [SPEAKER_10]: It's just like every hour, they send you the first line of a book.
[43:48.590 --> 43:49.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, wow.
[43:49.590 --> 43:55.210] [SPEAKER_10]: And one day, I was on Twitter, and it sent me the first line of one of my books.
[43:56.850 --> 43:58.330] [SPEAKER_10]: It was for the first line of crypto.
[43:58.790 --> 43:58.890] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[43:58.890 --> 44:00.090] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that sounds really...
[44:00.090 --> 44:00.310] [SPEAKER_10]: Whoa!
[44:01.270 --> 44:01.870] [SPEAKER_10]: It's mine.
[44:02.210 --> 44:02.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[44:03.030 --> 44:08.070] [SPEAKER_04]: I should point out that at the conference, we're going to have Steve's book, World of Hackers, Crypto.
[44:08.530 --> 44:09.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Not crypto.
[44:09.390 --> 44:09.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Not crypto?
[44:09.950 --> 44:10.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Not going to have that one?
[44:10.710 --> 44:11.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Apparently not.
[44:11.450 --> 44:12.410] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, well, we're going to have...
[44:12.410 --> 44:13.050] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have to talk to them.
[44:13.150 --> 44:14.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we'll talk to them about that.
[44:14.690 --> 44:15.830] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not sure they're out there.
[44:15.950 --> 44:16.790] [SPEAKER_10]: All right, well, we'll find out.
[44:16.790 --> 44:20.970] [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to find books, and Stephen will be signing them, and this will be after his talk on Saturday.
[44:21.650 --> 44:23.670] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's going to be a fun time for all.
[44:23.670 --> 44:25.930] [SPEAKER_10]: And you know what I'm going to do there, actually?
[44:26.150 --> 44:27.770] [SPEAKER_10]: I have to figure out a way to do this.
[44:27.890 --> 44:36.450] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to bring a copy of the original Hackers, the hardback book, which is very, very hard to find.
[44:37.170 --> 44:45.590] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, somehow we'll figure out how one lucky person, I hope the person would consider him or herself lucky, would get a copy of that.
[44:45.770 --> 44:45.950] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[44:46.710 --> 44:52.990] [SPEAKER_10]: I've reached into my secret stash of, you know, hardback books, and someone can get one.
[44:53.110 --> 44:55.830] [SPEAKER_10]: And it's got a lot of mistakes in it that I corrected later on.
[44:55.850 --> 44:56.630] [SPEAKER_10]: Is it a galley copy?
[44:56.870 --> 44:57.310] [SPEAKER_10]: No, no, no, no.
[44:57.310 --> 44:58.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Original hardback.
[44:58.490 --> 44:58.850] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[44:58.850 --> 45:02.750] [SPEAKER_10]: In pretty good condition there of Hackers.
[45:02.810 --> 45:04.670] [SPEAKER_10]: It hasn't been in hardback since 1984.
[45:05.110 --> 45:06.350] [SPEAKER_10]: We sold out pretty quickly.
[45:06.510 --> 45:07.350] [SPEAKER_10]: It didn't print a whole lot.
[45:07.430 --> 45:07.570] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[45:07.690 --> 45:08.370] [SPEAKER_10]: But it sold out.
[45:08.510 --> 45:09.950] [SPEAKER_10]: They did a very small second printing.
[45:10.530 --> 45:11.530] [SPEAKER_10]: And that was it.
[45:11.610 --> 45:15.530] [SPEAKER_10]: From then on, pretty much everyone who's read Hackers has read it in paperback.
[45:15.690 --> 45:17.890] [SPEAKER_10]: But I'll bring a hardback.
[45:18.310 --> 45:18.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Awesome.
[45:19.010 --> 45:19.890] [SPEAKER_04]: Looking forward to that.
[45:19.890 --> 45:25.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Speaking of books, we just got today the first copies of the Best of 2600 book.
[45:25.590 --> 45:29.850] [SPEAKER_04]: And just to give you a sense as to how big this thing is, I'm going to drop it on the floor now.
[45:29.930 --> 45:31.570] [SPEAKER_04]: You're going to hear for yourself what this sounds like.
[45:31.650 --> 45:32.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Let me make sure the microphone is up.
[45:33.310 --> 45:39.450] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the sound of the Best of 2600 hitting the floor at about four feet above the ground.
[45:40.590 --> 45:41.390] [SPEAKER_04]: That's pretty heavy.
[45:42.030 --> 45:42.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Look at that.
[45:42.670 --> 45:43.970] [SPEAKER_04]: I turned the computer on by doing that.
[45:45.390 --> 45:47.670] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not as heavy as it looks though.
[45:47.670 --> 45:50.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let me also open it up to the middle and then slam the book shut.
[45:51.070 --> 45:53.490] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you'll get a sense as to how thick it is as well.
[45:53.590 --> 45:53.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Ready?
[45:55.290 --> 45:56.170] [SPEAKER_04]: See, that's thick.
[45:56.290 --> 45:56.830] [SPEAKER_04]: That's serious.
[45:56.830 --> 45:57.510] [SPEAKER_04]: That made you jump.
[45:57.590 --> 45:59.330] [SPEAKER_19]: I can visually describe it if you'd like.
[45:59.430 --> 46:00.850] [SPEAKER_19]: It basically looks like a math textbook.
[46:00.850 --> 46:02.170] [SPEAKER_19]: I could throw it at you and it wins.
[46:02.730 --> 46:06.690] [SPEAKER_19]: If you imagine a college textbook, that's about what you're looking at.
[46:06.750 --> 46:07.910] [SPEAKER_19]: And probably the same way.
[46:07.930 --> 46:08.690] [SPEAKER_19]: Bruce Schneier's book.
[46:08.710 --> 46:09.170] [SPEAKER_19]: Much more interesting.
[46:09.370 --> 46:09.730] [SPEAKER_19]: Applied cryptography.
[46:09.810 --> 46:11.770] [SPEAKER_19]: I didn't say it had the content of a textbook.
[46:11.870 --> 46:12.850] [SPEAKER_19]: I said that's about the size.
[46:12.910 --> 46:14.470] [SPEAKER_04]: No, although you could learn quite a bit from this.
[46:15.430 --> 46:18.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Applied cryptography by Bruce Schneier, which came out many years ago, is pretty thick.
[46:18.790 --> 46:19.910] [SPEAKER_04]: It's about as thick as this.
[46:20.110 --> 46:21.770] [SPEAKER_04]: And we just got our first copies.
[46:21.970 --> 46:23.490] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't send you galley copies anymore.
[46:23.630 --> 46:25.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Galley copies come through PDFs.
[46:25.510 --> 46:27.710] [SPEAKER_04]: So you don't actually get to have those anymore.
[46:27.910 --> 46:30.330] [SPEAKER_04]: I was looking forward to having galley copies of this to give to my friends.
[46:30.450 --> 46:32.490] [SPEAKER_04]: But now you just get the final product.
[46:33.090 --> 46:34.790] [SPEAKER_04]: This is going to be available at Hope as well.
[46:34.950 --> 46:36.970] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be doing book signings for the best of 2600.
[46:37.730 --> 46:38.530] [SPEAKER_04]: 900 pages.
[46:38.830 --> 46:41.030] [SPEAKER_04]: 900 pages of all kinds of history.
[46:41.110 --> 46:44.830] [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of what Stephen is talking about tonight is reflected in here as well.
[46:44.890 --> 46:49.970] [SPEAKER_04]: The early days of hacking networks like Telenet and TimeNet and things like that.
[46:50.070 --> 46:55.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And just sort of the sense as to the potential of what computers can do.
[46:55.190 --> 47:02.190] [SPEAKER_04]: 300 BOD, 1200, connecting to bulletin boards, sharing information, connecting to all these international networks and meeting people.
[47:02.370 --> 47:03.770] [SPEAKER_04]: It was all there in its infancy.
[47:03.870 --> 47:07.890] [SPEAKER_04]: We divided it into three sections, the 1980s and 1990s and whatever you call this period of time.
[47:08.470 --> 47:12.270] [SPEAKER_04]: And you see the changes, but you also see the thread, the similarity.
[47:12.590 --> 47:16.990] [SPEAKER_04]: And that similarity is just the hacker ethic that's sort of maintained throughout.
[47:17.630 --> 47:22.950] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's still, I think, as you believe, exists as strongly as it existed back in the 1980s.
[47:22.950 --> 47:24.530] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just the toys have changed quite a bit.
[47:25.030 --> 47:25.470] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[47:25.610 --> 47:30.870] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think, you know, really the thing which kept it going is the Internet.
[47:31.130 --> 47:34.150] [SPEAKER_10]: And the Internet was built by people who had that mentality.
[47:34.550 --> 47:35.050] [SPEAKER_10]: They built it.
[47:35.850 --> 47:38.410] [SPEAKER_10]: The openness is just baked into its DNA.
[47:39.350 --> 47:40.890] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's why it's so hard to secure.
[47:42.150 --> 47:44.750] [SPEAKER_10]: But it spread the whole thing throughout.
[47:44.970 --> 47:47.290] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, it's built open-source principles.
[47:47.710 --> 47:50.810] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think, you know, it's out in the world.
[47:50.930 --> 47:52.370] [SPEAKER_10]: You can't put it back.
[47:52.370 --> 47:57.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's see if we can fit in a few phone calls at 212-209-2900.
[47:57.110 --> 48:05.410] [SPEAKER_04]: We've got Stephen Levy here, keynote speaker for The Last Hope, and author of a bunch of really interesting pieces and books over the years.
[48:05.670 --> 48:09.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'd say you're pretty much an expert on the whole hacker culture.
[48:09.390 --> 48:11.550] [SPEAKER_04]: You've defined much of it.
[48:12.050 --> 48:12.950] [SPEAKER_04]: You want the book, Red Hack?
[48:13.050 --> 48:13.630] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to hand it to you.
[48:13.750 --> 48:14.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't drop it.
[48:14.770 --> 48:15.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[48:15.470 --> 48:16.270] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very heavy.
[48:16.270 --> 48:20.630] [SPEAKER_02]: The one thing we haven't done with it is hit not Kevin over the head with it.
[48:20.710 --> 48:21.130] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't do that.
[48:21.330 --> 48:22.330] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just too dangerous.
[48:22.470 --> 48:23.030] [SPEAKER_02]: It's too dangerous.
[48:23.070 --> 48:23.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't, no.
[48:23.710 --> 48:25.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Because this book is a weapon in many ways.
[48:26.230 --> 48:27.490] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how serious this book is.
[48:27.570 --> 48:28.230] [SPEAKER_02]: It's too dangerous.
[48:28.230 --> 48:32.590] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a weapon of knowledge, but it's also a physical weapon because 900 pages is nothing to be sneezed at.
[48:32.590 --> 48:33.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Manuel.
[48:33.390 --> 48:33.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[48:34.070 --> 48:41.830] [SPEAKER_18]: Will there be some sort of formal unveiling of this tome at the Last Hope conference?
[48:41.990 --> 48:46.030] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how formal it's going to be, but I do know we will have book signings on, I think, Friday.
[48:46.230 --> 48:46.910] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have book signings.
[48:46.930 --> 48:48.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Friday evening, I think we said.
[48:48.430 --> 48:50.470] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's going to be available throughout the conference.
[48:50.690 --> 48:55.150] [SPEAKER_04]: And you'll be able to find it in fine bookstories, but also the crappy ones as well.
[48:55.510 --> 48:57.210] [SPEAKER_04]: I understand they signed on for this.
[48:57.310 --> 48:58.270] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a special URL.
[48:58.510 --> 49:01.530] [SPEAKER_02]: If you go to amazon.com slash 2600, it just comes right up.
[49:01.570 --> 49:01.950] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[49:02.590 --> 49:02.890] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[49:03.150 --> 49:05.890] [SPEAKER_04]: It hasn't been released to the public yet, but it will be within days.
[49:06.250 --> 49:06.710] [SPEAKER_19]: All right.
[49:06.750 --> 49:07.950] [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it's on pre-order on Amazon.
[49:08.070 --> 49:08.610] [SPEAKER_04]: I will take a look.
[49:08.730 --> 49:08.830] [SPEAKER_19]: It is.
[49:08.830 --> 49:09.010] [SPEAKER_19]: It is.
[49:09.070 --> 49:10.310] [SPEAKER_04]: 212-209-2900.
[49:10.390 --> 49:11.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's see if we can fit in a few phone calls.
[49:12.050 --> 49:14.270] [SPEAKER_04]: We've got Steven Levy in the studio, rather.
[49:15.130 --> 49:17.110] [SPEAKER_04]: And let's see who's out there.
[49:18.530 --> 49:19.290] [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening.
[49:19.350 --> 49:20.490] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the hook.
[49:21.550 --> 49:21.910] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.
[49:22.230 --> 49:22.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, speak up, please.
[49:23.650 --> 49:23.870] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[49:24.010 --> 49:24.790] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Sam.
[49:24.890 --> 49:25.910] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm enjoying the show.
[49:26.290 --> 49:26.490] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[49:26.550 --> 49:27.750] [SPEAKER_00]: First time I'm hearing it.
[49:28.550 --> 49:32.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Turn on your radio, please, Sam, because you're going to get reverberation.
[49:32.050 --> 49:32.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[49:32.990 --> 49:34.830] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hearing the show for the first time.
[49:34.990 --> 49:37.010] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really amazed that this is out there.
[49:37.030 --> 49:38.970] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know it was available on radio.
[49:39.590 --> 49:42.410] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really enjoying Mr. Levy's talk.
[49:43.390 --> 49:46.750] [SPEAKER_00]: I started working in computers way back in the 1980s.
[49:46.910 --> 49:53.610] [SPEAKER_00]: And just to hear someone talk about the changes, it really is a long journey, about 25 years.
[49:53.770 --> 49:58.230] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had a question for Mr. Levy, if he can take questions.
[49:58.450 --> 49:58.590] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.
[50:00.090 --> 50:12.510] [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think that governments have failed in the sense that they've not been able to share the information that the way the hackers believed the information was free?
[50:12.930 --> 50:18.270] [SPEAKER_00]: Why governments are not able to work together to create a more open Internet?
[50:20.390 --> 50:26.370] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, governments, by and large, you know, it's very rare to see a government committed to open this.
[50:27.210 --> 50:31.070] [SPEAKER_10]: In the U.S., they passed a law called Freedom of Information Act.
[50:31.070 --> 50:31.790] [SPEAKER_10]: Just think about that.
[50:32.070 --> 50:33.450] [SPEAKER_10]: The Freedom of Information Act.
[50:33.610 --> 50:34.650] [SPEAKER_10]: It sounds great.
[50:34.690 --> 50:36.950] [SPEAKER_10]: And if they followed it, it would have been great.
[50:37.150 --> 50:43.870] [SPEAKER_10]: But when I wrote my book, Crypto, I asked for some stuff in the Freedom of Information Act.
[50:44.030 --> 50:48.170] [SPEAKER_10]: And some of it finally came like a year after I finished the book.
[50:49.750 --> 50:50.690] [SPEAKER_10]: But it came.
[50:51.010 --> 50:51.110] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[50:51.590 --> 50:53.590] [SPEAKER_10]: Governments do not warm.
[50:53.770 --> 50:56.810] [SPEAKER_10]: Leaders, you know, politicians do not warm to open this.
[50:57.690 --> 51:00.070] [SPEAKER_10]: They thrive when things are closed.
[51:00.070 --> 51:03.030] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's why the citizenry has to push very hard.
[51:03.070 --> 51:05.030] [SPEAKER_10]: And technology could be a huge help in this.
[51:05.310 --> 51:14.570] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, forcing them, especially in a country like the U.S., it's built on the principles that the people are the government.
[51:15.230 --> 51:21.190] [SPEAKER_10]: The people have to keep pushing the government because people who run things don't like things open.
[51:21.370 --> 51:23.230] [SPEAKER_10]: They can get away with more if things aren't open.
[51:23.590 --> 51:29.770] [SPEAKER_04]: That seems to be a prevailing trade amongst governments, like you say, that freedom of information tends to be the enemy.
[51:30.070 --> 51:31.030] [SPEAKER_04]: And not just governments.
[51:31.690 --> 51:32.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Corporations as well.
[51:32.530 --> 51:33.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Corporations and nasty people.
[51:33.570 --> 51:34.830] [SPEAKER_04]: All kinds of entities out there.
[51:35.130 --> 51:35.270] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[51:35.310 --> 51:35.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[51:35.810 --> 51:37.230] [SPEAKER_04]: Take another phone call.
[51:37.310 --> 51:38.650] [SPEAKER_04]: 212-209-2900.
[51:39.350 --> 51:40.070] [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening.
[51:40.210 --> 51:41.050] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Off The Hook.
[51:42.150 --> 51:42.510] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[51:42.710 --> 51:43.510] [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[51:43.890 --> 51:44.570] [SPEAKER_11]: This is Off The Hook.
[51:44.730 --> 51:44.870] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[51:44.950 --> 51:45.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[51:45.190 --> 51:45.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Speak up.
[51:45.450 --> 51:45.890] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[51:46.490 --> 51:46.770] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[51:47.030 --> 51:48.150] [SPEAKER_11]: I've got a question I want to ask you.
[51:48.470 --> 51:51.190] [SPEAKER_11]: Could I just buy tickets, like, individually, like for Friday?
[51:51.390 --> 51:52.330] [SPEAKER_11]: If I can make it to Saturday?
[51:52.670 --> 51:53.510] [SPEAKER_11]: Could I get it at the door?
[51:53.910 --> 51:58.870] [SPEAKER_04]: You can get tickets to the conference at the door starting, I think, Thursday night at the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[51:58.870 --> 52:01.790] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, not this Thursday, a week from Thursday, but the tickets are for the weekend.
[52:01.790 --> 52:06.630] [SPEAKER_04]: So that even if you come at the last possible minute on Sunday, it's still the same price for the entire weekend.
[52:06.630 --> 52:09.850] [SPEAKER_04]: So we suggest people come as early as possible.
[52:10.110 --> 52:15.970] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, you can, if that's a problem, you can always have one person come one day and another person come the other day.
[52:16.050 --> 52:17.530] [SPEAKER_04]: You can give your ticket to somebody else.
[52:17.610 --> 52:19.230] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't have any restrictions as far as that goes.
[52:19.230 --> 52:21.790] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not something we tie to your arm that you can't take off.
[52:22.610 --> 52:26.090] [SPEAKER_04]: But, yeah, for simplicity's sake, we do have one price.
[52:26.610 --> 52:30.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I know you're holding up your armband from one of the other conferences.
[52:30.510 --> 52:31.570] [SPEAKER_18]: I can't take it off.
[52:31.990 --> 52:33.070] [SPEAKER_04]: It's still on after a year.
[52:33.130 --> 52:34.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I have two of them on my arm.
[52:34.750 --> 52:37.370] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is from the German, the German camp and the German Congress.
[52:37.530 --> 52:40.870] [SPEAKER_04]: What they do is they tie it around your arm and you wear it for the rest of your life.
[52:41.350 --> 52:41.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Forever.
[52:41.890 --> 52:44.590] [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, you can't give it to somebody else when you do it that way.
[52:44.690 --> 52:47.510] [SPEAKER_04]: But we hand you, well, we have these really neat badges.
[52:48.630 --> 52:49.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Blinky light.
[52:49.310 --> 52:50.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Blinky light badges?
[52:50.410 --> 52:50.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Where are they?
[52:50.730 --> 52:51.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I have them.
[52:51.870 --> 52:51.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[52:52.090 --> 52:52.590] [SPEAKER_04]: I have a couple.
[52:52.750 --> 52:53.730] [SPEAKER_04]: You want me to take them out of my bag?
[52:53.910 --> 52:54.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[52:54.290 --> 52:54.510] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[52:54.570 --> 52:54.870] [SPEAKER_04]: Hold on.
[52:56.910 --> 52:57.230] Let's...
[52:57.710 --> 52:58.330] [SPEAKER_04]: They're in here.
[52:58.510 --> 52:59.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Hold it up to the microphone.
[52:59.350 --> 52:59.750] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's them.
[53:00.710 --> 53:02.950] [SPEAKER_04]: That's either them or it's a sandwich, so be careful.
[53:03.670 --> 53:04.110] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[53:04.730 --> 53:06.850] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to take another phone call while you're opening the bag.
[53:06.990 --> 53:08.430] [SPEAKER_04]: I nodded it so that it wouldn't fall out.
[53:09.110 --> 53:09.650] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[53:09.790 --> 53:10.490] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Off The Hook.
[53:11.050 --> 53:11.370] [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[53:11.730 --> 53:12.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[53:13.070 --> 53:13.390] [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[53:13.470 --> 53:17.430] [SPEAKER_08]: I have a question for the show about the digital TV converters.
[53:18.350 --> 53:18.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[53:18.670 --> 53:20.390] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not really talking about that, but go ahead and make it quick.
[53:20.550 --> 53:20.730] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[53:20.830 --> 53:22.650] [SPEAKER_08]: I wanted to know, what do you think of it?
[53:22.710 --> 53:32.470] [SPEAKER_08]: I bought a digital TV converter, and my experience was that if I have a good signal, it's perfect, but that if a plane flies over the picture, pixelates, it hangs.
[53:34.450 --> 53:37.150] [SPEAKER_08]: Was it my box, or is digital TV very sensitive?
[53:37.150 --> 53:38.930] [SPEAKER_04]: I think Lexicon has an answer for you.
[53:39.050 --> 53:39.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[53:39.310 --> 53:41.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Mike, if you can make any more noise with that bag, we'd really appreciate it.
[53:41.730 --> 53:42.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.
[53:42.590 --> 53:48.250] [SPEAKER_15]: You just need to go to RadioShack and pick up some shielded cables because your cables just have a thin wrapper around them.
[53:48.350 --> 53:48.690] [SPEAKER_04]: There you go.
[53:48.750 --> 53:49.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Get better cables.
[53:49.650 --> 53:50.570] [SPEAKER_04]: That's usually the solution.
[53:50.710 --> 53:51.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, what do you got there, Mike?
[53:51.550 --> 53:52.690] [SPEAKER_04]: I have some badges.
[53:52.890 --> 53:53.150] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[53:53.210 --> 53:53.650] [SPEAKER_04]: We've got badges.
[53:53.870 --> 53:54.730] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how to make them.
[53:54.850 --> 53:56.910] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to take them out of the package to make them come on.
[53:57.030 --> 53:57.830] [SPEAKER_02]: They're still wrapped up.
[53:57.830 --> 54:03.710] [SPEAKER_02]: But they're very nicely wrapped, and they have all these weird components on them that I understand can use to track people.
[54:04.110 --> 54:04.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[54:04.530 --> 54:09.830] [SPEAKER_04]: So basically, if you're pre-registered, you're virtually guaranteed to have one of these if you want them.
[54:09.910 --> 54:10.650] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to get them.
[54:10.690 --> 54:15.950] [SPEAKER_04]: You have all kinds of other badges that don't have the tracking capabilities, but it's going to make for a really cool experience.
[54:16.070 --> 54:19.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Lexicon, you want to briefly give us an example of what kinds of things we'll be able to do?
[54:19.010 --> 54:19.410] [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[54:19.550 --> 54:20.410] [SPEAKER_15]: We have a system.
[54:21.710 --> 54:28.830] [SPEAKER_15]: The badges are part of the German CCC's open beacon system, which is an RFID system.
[54:28.970 --> 54:36.810] [SPEAKER_15]: And then we've attached to that a system to take information about people, what they're interested in, how old they are, that sort of thing.
[54:36.950 --> 54:43.410] [SPEAKER_15]: And we can compare all that information and actually get people to connect with people that have the same interests.
[54:43.410 --> 54:56.390] [SPEAKER_15]: And, like, if you see some person who has 90% compatibility with your interests, you can ask the system to send them your email or your phone number during the conference so you can connect and talk to them about those interests.
[54:56.390 --> 54:59.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Can you also find people who are diametrically opposed to everything you stand for?
[55:00.090 --> 55:00.490] [SPEAKER_15]: Probably.
[55:00.910 --> 55:02.070] [SPEAKER_15]: Because I find that more interesting.
[55:02.070 --> 55:04.010] [SPEAKER_15]: We're still programming, so we can actually put that in.
[55:04.070 --> 55:04.870] [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, cool.
[55:05.430 --> 55:08.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you guys have been doing an amazing job as far as getting all this together.
[55:08.250 --> 55:11.470] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just one of many things going on at the conference that we're looking forward to.
[55:12.350 --> 55:12.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[55:13.110 --> 55:14.890] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think we really have time for any more phone calls.
[55:15.030 --> 55:22.230] [SPEAKER_04]: But, Stephen, I want to give you an opportunity to give any last words or websites or contact information that you'd like to share with people.
[55:22.490 --> 55:27.590] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I guess if people want to get in contact with me, they'll just go to my website, which is StephenLevy.com.
[55:28.050 --> 55:28.790] [SPEAKER_10]: Easy to find.
[55:29.130 --> 55:30.710] [SPEAKER_10]: And there's a contact thing there.
[55:30.810 --> 55:33.490] [SPEAKER_10]: They can find out other stuff that I've been up to.
[55:33.670 --> 55:35.810] [SPEAKER_10]: And the story about how I found Einstein's brain.
[55:36.010 --> 55:36.670] [SPEAKER_10]: Probably a story.
[55:36.950 --> 55:40.410] [SPEAKER_10]: That's the way I'll tell at Hope.
[55:40.410 --> 55:40.450] [SPEAKER_10]: Hope.
[55:40.510 --> 55:41.790] [SPEAKER_10]: They found Einstein's brain, huh?
[55:41.870 --> 55:42.270] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah.
[55:42.670 --> 55:44.090] [SPEAKER_09]: Do you think that would be interesting to hear that?
[55:44.110 --> 55:44.930] [SPEAKER_09]: Einstein didn't mind.
[55:45.390 --> 55:45.570] [SPEAKER_09]: Huh?
[55:46.570 --> 55:48.750] [SPEAKER_04]: At that point, he didn't put up any objections.
[55:49.910 --> 55:50.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[55:50.470 --> 55:50.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[55:50.790 --> 55:52.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's going to be quite a story.
[55:52.390 --> 56:03.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Again, Stephen Levy, keynote speaker for the Last Hope Conference beginning on July 18th, running through the 19th and all the way into the 20th at the Hotel Pennsylvania, which is on 7th Avenue here in New York City.
[56:03.270 --> 56:06.230] [SPEAKER_04]: More information, www.hope.net.
[56:06.390 --> 56:10.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyone have any other URLs or addresses they want to give out in the last seconds of the show?
[56:10.230 --> 56:10.870] [SPEAKER_04]: Telephreak.org.
[56:11.310 --> 56:12.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Telephreak.org.
[56:12.070 --> 56:15.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you guys are going to have some presentation at the conference as well.
[56:15.150 --> 56:18.430] [SPEAKER_02]: People can email us at oth@2600.com.
[56:18.430 --> 56:26.850] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have like 100 talks, more than 100 talks if you count the unscheduled talks, and something like 150 to 200 different speakers.
[56:27.290 --> 56:28.970] [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, it's going to be something else.
[56:28.990 --> 56:31.270] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have one more show before it all begins.
[56:31.430 --> 56:37.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we're going to continue our tradition that we started last week of playing music or pieces that have to do with telephones.
[56:37.470 --> 56:44.590] [SPEAKER_04]: This actually isn't a song per se, but it's more like a spoken word piece by Pimp Daddy Supremes.
[56:44.670 --> 56:46.250] [SPEAKER_04]: It's called Pick Up the Phone.
[56:46.250 --> 56:47.110] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see you next week.