Off The Hook - 2008-08-06

[00:00.000 --> 00:00.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Two weeks.
[00:00.900 --> 00:06.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, I had a couple of responses, though, but, you know what I'm saying, it wasn't the responses I wanted to hear, though.
[00:06.620 --> 00:08.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: At least somebody did call me back, though.
[00:08.780 --> 00:09.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: They did call me back.
[00:10.100 --> 00:23.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: We just heard from Florida residents Reginald Wesley, Cheryl O'Connell, Jamarquis Smith, Sean Williams, Tanya Hill, Jazz Travis, and Carlos Perez, who were seeking job assistance at Tampa Bay Workforce Alliance.
[00:24.480 --> 00:27.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Reporter Emily Reddy recorded and produced that segment.
[00:28.580 --> 00:31.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Today is the 63rd anniversary of the U.S.
[00:31.520 --> 00:32.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: atomic bombing of Hiroshima.
[00:33.060 --> 00:39.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And with that little bit of information, we're going to leave the news and move on to Off The Hook, which is scheduled for 7 p.m.
[00:40.060 --> 00:42.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: on Wednesday nights here on WBAI New York.
[02:40.290 --> 02:42.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I do have been told by the program is Off The Hook.
[02:42.550 --> 02:44.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:45.090 --> 02:46.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry, technical glitches here.
[02:47.110 --> 02:50.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Machines not working nearly fast enough, but they're working now.
[02:50.870 --> 02:57.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, this is the first program... actually, yes, this is the first program in August of this year.
[02:57.770 --> 03:06.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we have all sorts of fun things scheduled for this hour, including a very exciting announcement that we're prepared to make almost any moment now.
[03:06.510 --> 03:07.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's introduce who is here.
[03:08.490 --> 03:10.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have... that's Rob T.
[03:10.690 --> 03:11.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Firefly over there.
[03:11.630 --> 03:12.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[03:13.030 --> 03:14.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I see not Kevin.
[03:15.090 --> 03:15.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hello.
[03:16.170 --> 03:17.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Looks like Mark S.
[03:18.410 --> 03:18.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi.
[03:19.510 --> 03:21.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Red Hack, you're joining us.
[03:21.250 --> 03:21.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey.
[03:22.070 --> 03:26.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also joining us from the past... well, I don't know how... how we used to introduce you.
[03:26.650 --> 03:27.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think just Alex.
[03:27.810 --> 03:28.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: We called you Alex?
[03:28.550 --> 03:29.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, Alex is fine.
[03:29.070 --> 03:30.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you have a handle?
[03:30.450 --> 03:33.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Way back in the day, I used to be called Neon Samurai.
[03:33.530 --> 03:34.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Neon Samurai.
[03:34.690 --> 03:35.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right, remember?
[03:35.170 --> 03:36.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Neon Samurai.
[03:36.730 --> 03:37.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Neon Samurai, yeah.
[03:37.210 --> 03:38.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about that?
[03:38.650 --> 03:39.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm almost afraid to admit it these days.
[03:39.930 --> 03:40.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're back.
[03:40.630 --> 03:42.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm back after six years.
[03:42.350 --> 03:42.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Six years.
[03:43.210 --> 03:43.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Amazing.
[03:44.070 --> 03:52.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I remember, for those of you who might wonder just who in God's name this guy is, go back to the radio show that we did when the police stormed the station.
[03:52.490 --> 03:55.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: And none of you guys were here for that, but that was a lot of fun.
[03:55.230 --> 03:55.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was amazing.
[03:55.930 --> 03:56.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was really good radio.
[03:56.690 --> 03:59.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't have days like that anymore, at least not yet.
[03:59.190 --> 04:01.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was thinking about that as I was waiting for you outside the station today.
[04:02.070 --> 04:03.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was thinking about how cool that night was.
[04:03.130 --> 04:03.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: That was amazing.
[04:03.890 --> 04:04.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was something else.
[04:04.790 --> 04:10.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we look back on that fondly because, well, things turned out for the better about a year or so later, but that was during the infamous coup.
[04:12.230 --> 04:17.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, hostile forces took over the radio station and were steering in a direction that most of us weren't very happy with.
[04:18.190 --> 04:21.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: And one by one, people were getting kicked off the air and banned and horrible things were happening.
[04:21.810 --> 04:25.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what happened that night, I think it was in January of 2001...
[04:25.570 --> 04:26.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was, yes.
[04:26.490 --> 04:32.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: ...was that the Listener Advisory Board was trying to have a meeting in the station.
[04:33.470 --> 04:37.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the station management at the time did not want them in the station.
[04:37.410 --> 04:38.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they barred them.
[04:38.610 --> 04:39.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they actually called the cops.
[04:39.770 --> 04:43.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the cops came into the station and started arresting people who dared to come into the station.
[04:51.810 --> 04:53.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right, because I had your cell phone.
[04:53.490 --> 04:55.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: You gave me your cell phone and I was standing in the hall.
[04:55.850 --> 04:57.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: We were giving it to various people who weren't leaving.
[04:57.650 --> 04:57.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[04:57.870 --> 05:01.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Then when the cops came up, they had no idea that that cell phone was connected to the radio.
[05:01.790 --> 05:03.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I stood right in front of the cops.
[05:03.070 --> 05:03.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the cops didn't care.
[05:03.990 --> 05:04.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think they cared.
[05:04.750 --> 05:06.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was station management that cared more.
[05:06.730 --> 05:07.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[05:07.370 --> 05:11.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And unbeknownst to them, they were busy directing the cops to arrest people in our own lobby.
[05:12.570 --> 05:16.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you were sort of just milling about and the whole thing was going out over the air.
[05:16.550 --> 05:17.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was amazing.
[05:21.810 --> 05:25.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just to take part in this and to, I guess, demonstrate against it and things like that.
[05:25.650 --> 05:27.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: And boy, did I get chewed out after the show for doing that.
[05:28.170 --> 05:31.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, I made a promise then and I keep that promise now.
[05:31.350 --> 05:34.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: If something is happening right in front of my eyes, I'm going to talk about it.
[05:34.450 --> 05:38.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like we did with the WTO when Amy Goodman was in Seattle in 1999.
[05:38.910 --> 05:39.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: It happened during our show.
[05:40.130 --> 05:41.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Things always happen during our show.
[05:41.490 --> 05:42.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know why that is.
[05:42.650 --> 05:44.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wednesday at 7 is a good time, I suppose.
[05:44.410 --> 05:44.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[05:44.570 --> 05:47.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think during that show, didn't we have one of the dissonant board members on at the same time?
[05:48.330 --> 05:48.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: We did.
[05:48.910 --> 05:50.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was Leslie Kagan.
[05:50.270 --> 05:51.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's right.
[05:51.130 --> 05:51.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good memory.
[05:51.470 --> 05:53.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: We had some interviews going on.
[05:53.750 --> 05:56.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the cell phone back then wasn't as common as it is now.
[05:56.630 --> 05:58.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: So people didn't realize what we were doing.
[05:59.650 --> 06:00.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah.
[06:00.570 --> 06:01.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was a memorable night.
[06:01.510 --> 06:01.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really was.
[06:02.010 --> 06:02.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it was good radio.
[06:02.830 --> 06:03.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Very much so.
[06:03.710 --> 06:05.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, and that's who Neon Samurai is.
[06:08.790 --> 06:10.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Keep that door closed, will you?
[06:10.370 --> 06:10.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[06:11.490 --> 06:13.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have all kinds of people wandering in now.
[06:14.330 --> 06:16.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have the open door policy, but not that open.
[06:16.790 --> 06:17.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[06:17.610 --> 06:23.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also joining us tonight from, well, from somewhere in Pennsylvania, is Bernie S.
[06:23.630 --> 06:24.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[06:24.270 --> 06:24.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Greetings.
[06:24.910 --> 06:26.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm calling from a rural landline.
[06:26.410 --> 06:36.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you hear any ticks on the line, it's the electric fences from nearby farms that are arcing with the weeds shorting out the lines into the ground.
[06:36.670 --> 06:38.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you hear a ticking sound, it sounds like it's not a bomb.
[06:38.830 --> 06:39.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a...
[06:39.630 --> 06:42.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't hear any ticking sounds.
[06:42.310 --> 06:47.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if we turned off all the other audio sources and just whispered, maybe you'd hear it.
[06:47.850 --> 06:48.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway.
[06:48.470 --> 06:49.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, look forward to it.
[06:49.650 --> 06:50.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: You sound crystal clear right now, Bernie.
[06:51.310 --> 06:51.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[06:51.630 --> 07:05.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that Wednesday at 7 o'clock is a good time, because I remember a few years ago, there was a Secret Service coordination meeting for all the law enforcement agencies that were planning to round up people at the RNC conference in Philadelphia.
[07:05.850 --> 07:09.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that happened also at 7 o'clock on Wednesday night, I believe.
[07:10.130 --> 07:10.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[07:11.130 --> 07:11.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[07:11.630 --> 07:12.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Things always happen.
[07:12.470 --> 07:15.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: And whenever I'm invited to things, they always happen on Wednesday at 7 p.m., so I can't go.
[07:16.090 --> 07:17.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think they know that intentionally.
[07:18.410 --> 07:23.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also joining us on the phone from, I believe, Washington, D.C., is our good friend Nick Farr.
[07:23.130 --> 07:23.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nick, are you there?
[07:24.150 --> 07:24.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[07:24.810 --> 07:25.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you doing?
[07:30.310 --> 07:34.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: For all of the hackerspaces that are popping up all around this country, that person would be Nick Farr.
[07:35.930 --> 07:48.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, of course, Nick played a very important role in the hackerspace village at the last HOPE conference, and has been traveling around the world, basically getting inspiration and all sorts of other things to help people build their own hackerspace.
[07:48.230 --> 07:48.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that a fair assessment?
[07:49.610 --> 07:51.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a fair assessment.
[07:51.030 --> 07:55.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure if you want to pin the whole hackerspace movement on me.
[07:55.530 --> 07:57.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think I do want to pin it on you, yes.
[07:57.510 --> 07:58.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
[07:58.230 --> 07:58.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[07:58.410 --> 08:02.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I will accept responsibility for it, for 10% of it.
[08:02.170 --> 08:02.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: How about that?
[08:02.930 --> 08:03.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Fair enough.
[08:03.630 --> 08:10.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, actually, I'm speaking to you from the hackerspace here in Washington, D.C., Hack D.C., right now.
[08:10.950 --> 08:15.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I trust that the Club-Mate has arrived safely down there.
[08:15.910 --> 08:22.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, although the Club-Mate is in a secret, undisclosed location for safekeeping.
[08:24.530 --> 08:26.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Nick, you are sharing.
[08:26.250 --> 08:27.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: And my own personal consumption.
[08:27.030 --> 08:28.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: You are sharing, I hope.
[08:29.730 --> 08:34.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Only very strategically, where it would help create hackerspaces elsewhere in the country.
[08:35.070 --> 08:35.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[08:35.970 --> 08:44.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think there are some people that say, well, you know, I don't know if I want to start a hackerspace in L.A., but maybe if I had a case of Club-Mate, I would do that.
[08:44.130 --> 08:47.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's held there for strategic purposes.
[08:47.450 --> 08:53.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: It is the United States' strategic reserve of Club-Mate for the purpose of securing hackerspaces throughout the country.
[08:53.470 --> 09:00.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, of course, Club-Mate, for those of you who might not know what we're talking about, it's a drink that we introduced at the Last Hope Conference.
[09:02.090 --> 09:09.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it came from Germany, very highly addictive, and has now been introduced to the American hacker scene.
[09:10.610 --> 09:12.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I guess a lot of people got addicted.
[09:14.510 --> 09:15.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess so.
[09:15.490 --> 09:19.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people have created a very productive dependence upon it.
[09:19.690 --> 09:24.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure if we want to be throwing around the A word, given that we still have to import more of it into the United States.
[09:26.050 --> 09:27.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, I mean, it is...
[09:27.850 --> 09:28.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't...
[09:28.970 --> 09:34.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't really have a taste for it myself, but a lot of people do, and apparently it keeps you awake and does all sorts of other cool things.
[09:35.130 --> 09:43.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the great thing about it is that it's based on mate tea, which is much more common in Latin America than it is here, of course.
[09:43.790 --> 09:54.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: But one of its unique properties is that, you know, combined with caffeine and the other components of mate tea, it tends to keep you awake and alert without making you feel jumpy or paranoid.
[09:56.550 --> 10:08.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that one of the great things about it is that you don't feel alert but tired at the same time as you would if you were, say, drinking a lot of coffee to try to stay awake or taking caffeine pills or just depending solely on caffeine.
[10:08.850 --> 10:10.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: What if you're paranoid to begin with?
[10:12.670 --> 10:14.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure if...
[10:14.310 --> 10:20.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't think that we need to do a study on that to see if it will actually reduce paranoia or increase it.
[10:20.510 --> 10:24.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think most of the people who are drinking Club-Mate pretty regularly in Germany, they...
[10:26.210 --> 10:31.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: Perhaps this is my own bias, but I think they actually get a little less paranoid when they're drinking it.
[10:31.550 --> 10:38.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll volunteer for that test because I'm kind of paranoid and I'll volunteer to drink Club-Mate to see if it makes me less paranoid.
[10:38.430 --> 10:41.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, I can attest to the Club-Mate keeping me awake.
[10:42.390 --> 10:45.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: It more or less kept me up for 96 hours or so during the conference.
[10:46.570 --> 10:49.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that was your own insanity that did that more than anything else.
[10:50.050 --> 10:51.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think you want to pin that on the Club-Mate.
[10:51.950 --> 10:53.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it was all Club-Mate's fault.
[10:53.510 --> 10:57.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: We had to tie you down to get you to sleep finally because it was ridiculous.
[10:57.310 --> 10:58.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: You just stayed up for the entire conference.
[10:58.990 --> 11:00.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think that was even humanly possible.
[11:01.150 --> 11:03.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it is, apparently, thanks to Club-Mate.
[11:05.430 --> 11:05.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[11:06.770 --> 11:10.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, yes, that was just one part of the conference.
[11:10.270 --> 11:11.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously, there are many more.
[11:11.650 --> 11:14.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And are we going to be able to do this, Red Act?
[11:15.090 --> 11:21.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we have this exciting announcement that we want to pass along to people and we want to do that tonight.
[11:23.450 --> 11:29.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And basically, Mark S., you're here from Texas, right?
[11:29.570 --> 11:31.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just use one microphone, please.
[11:31.170 --> 11:32.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't take two microphones.
[11:32.370 --> 11:32.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[11:33.530 --> 11:38.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Mark actually came all the way up here just to take part in the last Hope Conference.
[11:39.590 --> 11:43.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: And while he was here, he decided to, while he was at it, go to NYU at the same time.
[11:44.070 --> 11:46.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the real reason for you to come up here was for the conference.
[11:46.370 --> 11:47.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for dropping my docs, basically.
[11:47.470 --> 11:51.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, I can give your class schedule and everything else.
[11:52.690 --> 12:02.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, yeah, so I guess since this is your last week here, you should be the person, and also since you did a lot of the work, you should be the person to press the button, as it were.
[12:03.270 --> 12:04.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, we do have a button.
[12:04.330 --> 12:05.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm about to press the button.
[12:05.450 --> 12:07.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, now, before you press the button, don't press the button yet.
[12:07.730 --> 12:08.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm so excited.
[12:08.490 --> 12:10.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because we don't want to jump the gun here.
[12:11.710 --> 12:15.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: But what we have been doing, we haven't been sitting back and relaxing after the conference.
[12:15.670 --> 12:16.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've been working very hard.
[12:16.650 --> 12:18.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, Redhack, you've been working extremely hard as well.
[12:19.710 --> 12:24.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have all the talks have been recorded.
[12:24.530 --> 12:36.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what we've been doing is extracting the audio and making that available so that people can now listen to all the talks in two different sound qualities, I believe, 16K, BBS, and 64.
[12:36.950 --> 12:39.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we will have DVDs in the future.
[12:40.010 --> 12:42.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the next step of this whole thing.
[12:42.190 --> 12:43.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll put that on the store and all that.
[12:43.490 --> 12:51.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: But right now, what we're about to do, we're about to make the audio, all the audio from all of the talks.
[12:51.830 --> 12:52.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many talks were there?
[12:53.650 --> 12:55.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think 99.
[12:55.150 --> 12:56.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: 99 talks.
[12:56.310 --> 12:57.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And some of them were long.
[12:57.590 --> 12:59.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some of them, like Steve Rambam, were over three hours long.
[12:59.630 --> 13:01.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Robert Steele was something like three or four hours.
[13:02.970 --> 13:10.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, when you press that button, when you press that button on the website, what website is it that this will be available at?
[13:11.410 --> 13:12.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: www.hope.net.
[13:12.750 --> 13:13.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, hope.net.
[13:14.270 --> 13:15.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll be able to go there.
[13:15.950 --> 13:18.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is it on the main page or on the speaker page?
[13:18.770 --> 13:22.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you click on talks in about five minutes, it'll go to the...
[13:22.930 --> 13:23.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: The audio page.
[13:24.030 --> 13:24.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Five minutes.
[13:24.970 --> 13:26.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess a minute.
[13:26.750 --> 13:26.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[13:27.790 --> 13:27.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[13:28.170 --> 13:28.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: 30 seconds now.
[13:29.110 --> 13:30.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, as soon as you press the button.
[13:31.150 --> 13:31.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, okay.
[13:31.530 --> 13:40.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: What we've done is we've set up this very impressive webpage just for the purpose of Mark S hitting the button.
[13:41.070 --> 13:44.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I don't know why we spend so much time designing that because no one else is ever going to see it.
[13:44.710 --> 13:45.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can I please press the button?
[13:45.850 --> 13:46.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[13:46.270 --> 13:48.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I just want to make sure that you do it right because it's actually...
[13:48.610 --> 13:50.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: For some reason, there's also two buttons.
[13:50.170 --> 13:51.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, press the right button.
[13:51.390 --> 13:52.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't press the wrong button.
[13:52.170 --> 13:54.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's going to be funny if my connection drops and we can't press the button.
[13:55.690 --> 13:56.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[13:56.110 --> 13:57.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: You see, now you pressed the wrong button.
[13:57.670 --> 13:58.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not what we wanted you to do.
[13:59.730 --> 14:00.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Press the right...
[14:00.570 --> 14:01.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, the green button.
[14:01.590 --> 14:02.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: You shouldn't have pressed the red button.
[14:02.910 --> 14:04.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know why you pressed that in the first place.
[14:04.730 --> 14:05.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's never the red button.
[14:05.750 --> 14:06.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's never the red button.
[14:06.910 --> 14:07.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[14:07.970 --> 14:08.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[14:08.870 --> 14:10.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Has the page been destroyed?
[14:11.030 --> 14:12.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't want that to happen either.
[14:13.030 --> 14:16.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so basically what you want to do is press the green button.
[14:16.670 --> 14:17.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that right?
[14:17.450 --> 14:18.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, press the green button.
[14:18.910 --> 14:20.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: There we go.
[14:20.310 --> 14:20.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[14:21.190 --> 14:24.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, so is it on?
[14:24.150 --> 14:26.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Has it actually transferred over?
[14:26.210 --> 14:26.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is pretty exciting.
[14:27.090 --> 14:28.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to find out right now.
[14:28.330 --> 14:33.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't believe all the work these people put into this web page with the sound effects and all sorts of graphics.
[14:33.850 --> 14:40.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: It looks like elves jumping through forest and things, a graphical thing, meaning that we've succeeded.
[14:40.990 --> 14:42.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they're up.
[14:42.190 --> 14:42.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're up now.
[14:42.950 --> 14:43.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[14:43.370 --> 14:48.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so the Hope Audio Files have officially been released at 7.16 p.m.
[14:48.450 --> 14:52.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Eastern Time on August the 6th, Year of Our Lord, 2008.
[14:54.270 --> 14:54.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[14:55.050 --> 14:55.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit of history.
[14:55.930 --> 14:57.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit of history was made here tonight.
[14:58.370 --> 15:02.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: So now our website is going to go down because everybody is going to be accessing this at once.
[15:02.930 --> 15:04.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what happened last time.
[15:04.030 --> 15:06.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you have about five minutes to get through and then...
[15:06.650 --> 15:08.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is that actual smoke coming from the keyboard?
[15:09.410 --> 15:09.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unbelievable.
[15:09.850 --> 15:09.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unbelievable.
[15:10.250 --> 15:16.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, okay, so every talk, if you missed Hope, and we're getting a lot of complaints from people who missed Hope, and I don't know what they expect us to do about it, but we can't have it again.
[15:16.950 --> 15:18.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't have that one again anyway.
[15:19.070 --> 15:20.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now you can go and experience it.
[15:21.030 --> 15:23.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can hear the audio in two different sound quads.
[15:23.310 --> 15:27.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And please, people, if you have bad connectivity, try not to download the big ones, the 64K ones.
[15:27.910 --> 15:30.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Download the 16K ones because it'll be easier on everybody.
[15:31.490 --> 15:32.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And don't be greedy.
[15:32.650 --> 15:35.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take as much as you can handle for now.
[15:35.470 --> 15:39.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: It'll be there later, and it'll be there in all sorts of different forms as well.
[15:40.330 --> 15:40.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[15:41.370 --> 15:42.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie, pretty exciting news, isn't it?
[15:43.590 --> 15:44.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is really exciting.
[15:45.030 --> 15:49.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm clicking refresh on my browser over and over again to watch this happen.
[15:49.330 --> 15:50.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, any minute now.
[15:50.750 --> 15:50.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[15:51.570 --> 15:54.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have Internet connectivity down there in...
[15:54.210 --> 15:57.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's rural, and actually, it's sort of pseudo-DSL.
[15:57.950 --> 15:58.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was just installed here.
[15:59.070 --> 16:04.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, it works, but it's about half the speed of what you would expect normal DSL to be.
[16:04.170 --> 16:06.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it does work, except when it doesn't.
[16:06.470 --> 16:07.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of like Brooklyn, I hear.
[16:07.910 --> 16:09.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's like that, too, sometimes.
[16:10.590 --> 16:10.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[16:11.130 --> 16:11.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's cool.
[16:11.870 --> 16:16.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we have another exciting announcement as well, as if this wasn't enough.
[16:16.230 --> 16:16.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wait.
[16:16.470 --> 16:17.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Should we stop here?
[16:17.190 --> 16:19.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because I don't want to overload people with too many exciting things.
[16:19.970 --> 16:20.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, now I'm all excited.
[16:21.390 --> 16:21.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[16:22.030 --> 16:22.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[16:22.350 --> 16:29.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, this is something that I think we should defer to Nick for, because he has, I think, more information on this.
[16:29.450 --> 16:32.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I should point out, this is something that's not going to be happening right now.
[16:32.850 --> 16:37.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is something that's going to be happening in about a year, but it is going to be historic in nature.
[16:38.310 --> 16:39.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nick, what do you got?
[16:39.970 --> 16:40.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[16:40.890 --> 16:42.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm busy downloading all my talks.
[16:42.310 --> 16:42.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, no.
[16:44.710 --> 16:45.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the thing.
[16:45.330 --> 16:47.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everyone's going to be all distracted from now on.
[16:47.990 --> 16:49.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: It seems to be working great for me.
[16:49.790 --> 16:51.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, you know, I've got three streams going.
[16:51.530 --> 16:54.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what's going on for Bernie over there in rural Pennsylvania.
[16:54.790 --> 16:55.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[16:55.130 --> 16:56.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take all the streams.
[16:57.770 --> 17:06.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, if, I figure if I'm actually on the show that it's being announced at, I kind of, I think I have first dibs at everything on the website.
[17:06.890 --> 17:08.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's just how I see it.
[17:08.270 --> 17:08.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Am I wrong?
[17:08.830 --> 17:12.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's sort of not how the net really works, but if that makes you happy, go for it.
[17:13.330 --> 17:14.210]  Okay, awesome.
[17:14.490 --> 17:15.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm told we have unlimited bandwidth.
[17:16.050 --> 17:16.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that right, Redhacked?
[17:17.350 --> 17:18.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unlimited or limited?
[17:18.150 --> 17:18.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which was it?
[17:18.650 --> 17:19.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was one of those words.
[17:19.730 --> 17:20.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I can't really remember.
[17:20.650 --> 17:22.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we'll find out soon enough.
[17:22.110 --> 17:26.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: But all the talks are now available, so have at them and see what happens.
[17:26.750 --> 17:29.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, Nick, you know something about what's going to be happening next year?
[17:30.370 --> 17:30.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[17:30.830 --> 17:36.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm proud to announce on the radio the latest Dutch conference in 1980.
[17:37.170 --> 17:39.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, if I can give a little backstory before I announce this one.
[17:39.230 --> 17:39.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, please.
[17:40.130 --> 17:44.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: In 1989, a great tradition started with the Galactic Hacker Party.
[17:44.590 --> 17:46.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Then, four years later...
[17:46.010 --> 17:46.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wait a minute, I was there.
[17:47.030 --> 17:47.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was there.
[17:48.330 --> 17:48.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: 1989.
[17:48.770 --> 17:51.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was my first trip to Europe, and it changed my life.
[17:52.570 --> 17:53.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it was incredible.
[17:53.870 --> 17:54.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[17:55.090 --> 17:58.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: And four years later, we had Hacking at the End of the Universe.
[17:58.250 --> 17:58.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was there, too.
[17:59.570 --> 18:01.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Four years after that, we had Hacking in Progress.
[18:01.750 --> 18:02.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: I missed that one.
[18:02.550 --> 18:02.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know why?
[18:02.930 --> 18:07.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because it happened the exact same time as Beyond Hope in 1997, so I had to go to that one.
[18:07.410 --> 18:08.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, bad.
[18:08.810 --> 18:09.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[18:09.030 --> 18:12.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't think that was a good idea at the time, but, you know, I went with it.
[18:12.670 --> 18:13.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, there you go.
[18:13.750 --> 18:13.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[18:14.810 --> 18:16.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Were you at Hacking at Large in 2001?
[18:16.990 --> 18:17.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was, indeed.
[18:18.610 --> 18:20.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: And were you at What the Hack in 2005?
[18:20.870 --> 18:21.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: I certainly was.
[18:21.650 --> 18:23.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, we broadcast from there on the radio.
[18:24.170 --> 18:24.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: Excellent.
[18:24.910 --> 18:29.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I guess in 2009, four years after What the Hack, they have finally announced...
[18:29.870 --> 18:30.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: There have been so many of them.
[18:31.030 --> 18:32.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't believe how many there have been.
[18:32.490 --> 18:32.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[18:33.030 --> 18:34.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've been on a long time.
[18:34.690 --> 18:37.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Europeans are good at throwing outdoor hacker events.
[18:37.410 --> 18:41.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: And in 2009, they have officially announced Hacking at Random.
[18:42.750 --> 18:48.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Going back to the Hacking in Progress, Hacking at Large naming scheme, they've announced Hacking at Random.
[18:48.830 --> 18:52.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: They don't have dates yet, but they're officially organized.
[18:52.470 --> 18:53.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're getting together.
[18:53.710 --> 18:59.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're finding a suitable outdoor location to have, again, an incredible outdoor hacker party.
[19:00.010 --> 19:06.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: For those of you who don't know, traditionally in Europe, they have an outdoor hacking event every two years.
[19:06.690 --> 19:08.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Every four years, like we said, the Dutch do it.
[19:08.730 --> 19:14.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: And next summer, it's the Dutch hacker's turn, as they're known, for lack of a better name.
[19:15.670 --> 19:22.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: And every four years, the Chaos Communication Club, or the Chaos Computer Club, does a camp.
[19:23.050 --> 19:28.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And last year, they had a camp in 2007.
[19:28.570 --> 19:29.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that was awesome.
[19:29.770 --> 19:35.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure some of you might remember a little thing that I was 90% responsible for hackers on a plane.
[19:35.710 --> 19:36.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, Emmanuel, you were there.
[19:37.070 --> 19:39.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: You were at the CCC 2000.
[19:39.130 --> 19:41.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was there, but I didn't come by the plane.
[19:41.210 --> 19:42.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I came a different way.
[19:42.330 --> 19:46.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I came by a different plane, but there weren't any hackers on my plane, so I just was a hacker on a plane, I suppose.
[19:46.950 --> 19:47.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is a lie.
[19:47.450 --> 19:47.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you mean?
[19:47.970 --> 19:48.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was on the plane.
[19:48.470 --> 19:50.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you were on the plane, too, but you were sleeping.
[19:50.430 --> 19:52.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: You weren't hacking most of the time.
[19:52.750 --> 19:53.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was hacking sleep.
[19:53.550 --> 19:54.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: I see.
[19:54.530 --> 19:57.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I wasn't on the official hackers on a plane thing that Nick organized.
[19:58.050 --> 20:01.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I did see them there at the camp, and later on in Berlin.
[20:03.210 --> 20:14.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm really, really excited that, you know, it was rumored for a while that it wasn't going to happen, but they have officially gotten everything together in Europe and launched and announced Hacking at Random 2009.
[20:14.470 --> 20:23.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the best thing about it is a lot of the connections that we made last year, last year, you know, we had a very big North American presence at the camp.
[20:23.710 --> 20:31.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: And thanks to that, they're actually reaching out to people on this side of the Atlantic to help plan Hacking at Random 2009.
[20:31.410 --> 20:36.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: to make it probably a, you know, a definitely truly global hacker camp.
[20:37.030 --> 20:53.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: It might be the first, what you could call, truly global hacker camp, because they're not only reaching out to people in North America, they're reaching out to people in South America, they're reaching out to people in Asia, and they're trying to bring as many people as possible from throughout the world to throw a really global hacker party.
[20:53.850 --> 21:01.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, here at DEFCON, you know, which is going to be going on shortly, we have maybe the world's largest hacker party here in the United States.
[21:01.410 --> 21:06.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: But a camp is something truly, truly special.
[21:06.230 --> 21:16.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can do a lot more stuff outdoors in the middle of a field somewhere in Western Europe than you can in a hotel in Las Vegas.
[21:16.210 --> 21:19.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, DEFCON is great and everything, but the camp is a mind-blowing experience.
[21:19.510 --> 21:31.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm really happy to announce Hacking at Random 2009, which will probably be taking place late summer 2009 sometime in August, either in the Netherlands or just across the border from the Netherlands in China.
[21:32.130 --> 21:32.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Nick?
[21:33.190 --> 21:33.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[21:34.050 --> 21:40.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a website or any place where people can keep checking for more information about Hacking at Random?
[21:40.290 --> 21:41.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: There actually is a website.
[21:41.970 --> 21:45.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: It is har2009.org.
[21:45.930 --> 21:49.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they have a wiki and they have a mailing list that you can sign up for.
[21:50.350 --> 21:50.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[21:51.050 --> 21:57.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: To jump in, what you were saying before, really the camps... I was lucky enough to go to What the Hack three years ago now.
[21:57.770 --> 22:04.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's just with all that space, you get all these amazing projects and just cool things that people are showing off.
[22:04.790 --> 22:19.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: I remember there was a guy, he built like a geodesic dome tent and set up a projector and done software to morph his videos so that when he aimed the projector at like a bowl, it made all the videos into like a 3D thing on the top of the dome.
[22:19.450 --> 22:22.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, you just... with a hotel, you know, it's nice.
[22:22.510 --> 22:31.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you still have a lot of projects and a lot of cool things going on, but it's just, you know, with a whole field at your disposal and all these different tents and just so many people there, it's just amazing.
[22:31.830 --> 22:33.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's an amazing thing to be at and to witness.
[22:34.950 --> 22:41.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: And from somewhere over on the West Coast, our friend Mike joins us, who's usually here in the studio.
[22:41.270 --> 22:42.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mike, are you there?
[22:42.510 --> 22:43.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm here.
[22:43.830 --> 22:47.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, we have three people on the phone at once, which is pretty taxing.
[22:47.670 --> 22:56.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know if you've heard any of the show so far, but what we've done is we've officially released the Hope Audio, and our website is now straining under the load.
[22:56.730 --> 23:02.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we've officially announced another hacking camp, Hacking at Random.
[23:03.110 --> 23:04.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nick, are we supposed to call this HAR?
[23:05.930 --> 23:08.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's been decided yet.
[23:08.150 --> 23:08.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[23:08.810 --> 23:19.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, I would say that was probably part of the thinking into it, considering that Hacking in Progress was hip and Hacking at Large was how, and they made a big deal about...
[23:19.070 --> 23:22.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also, there's the whole pirate thing going on there.
[23:22.430 --> 23:29.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, if you even, if you look at the old Hactics, the Dutch Hacker magazine, they used to have this guy who looked like a pirate on all the front covers.
[23:29.310 --> 23:33.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, he could even come back and say HAR a few times, and everything would make sense.
[23:34.050 --> 23:41.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm pretty sure that there's going to be a lot of, I don't really want to say piracy, but pirate-tree.
[23:42.130 --> 23:42.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: How about that?
[23:42.670 --> 23:44.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: There'll be a lot of pirate-tree.
[23:44.110 --> 23:44.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that a word, pirate-tree?
[23:44.990 --> 23:47.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know what it means, so, yeah, that makes sense.
[23:47.430 --> 23:48.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, Mike, that's what you've missed so far.
[23:48.850 --> 23:49.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's been pretty eventful.
[23:50.490 --> 23:51.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's pretty eventful.
[23:52.650 --> 23:53.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Indeed it is.
[23:53.890 --> 23:56.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Am I echoing on the radio, or just in my own ear?
[23:56.590 --> 23:58.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you're both, actually.
[23:58.530 --> 24:00.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not sure which has more listeners right now.
[24:00.850 --> 24:02.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: But where are you right now, Mike?
[24:03.190 --> 24:09.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm in San Francisco, California, near the Mission District.
[24:11.550 --> 24:14.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've been, as you know, traveling around the West Coast.
[24:14.610 --> 24:17.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll be back in the studio next week.
[24:17.710 --> 24:19.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's been quite a nice trip.
[24:20.350 --> 24:20.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[24:21.150 --> 24:26.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just got back from Yosemite National Park, which is very lovely.
[24:26.430 --> 24:27.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Everyone should go there.
[24:28.690 --> 24:32.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: And now I'm hearing about a hacker camp in Holland.
[24:33.090 --> 24:34.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: You didn't say Holland, but it's in Holland.
[24:35.610 --> 24:37.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we think it's in Holland.
[24:37.210 --> 24:40.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: I believe Nick said that it could be across the border in Germany.
[24:41.110 --> 24:49.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know last time we talked to Rob, who was organizing the previous conferences, he expressed a desire to have it in Germany because there's less regulations.
[24:49.710 --> 24:55.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, I kind of think that if you can have these things in as many countries as possible, all the better.
[24:55.630 --> 25:01.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if it's possible to keep it in Holland, in the Netherlands, that would be, you know, great as far as I'm concerned.
[25:01.650 --> 25:03.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: But whatever works for them, whatever they decide, of course.
[25:04.310 --> 25:07.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: I hope they continue to have nice hats.
[25:07.250 --> 25:12.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: I got a very nice hat at What The Hack, which was the last conference in Holland.
[25:12.430 --> 25:16.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I've been wearing it actually all on the strip because it's been raining in a lot of places.
[25:17.370 --> 25:19.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And so I hope I can get a new hat at Haar.
[25:20.410 --> 25:20.770]  Okay.
[25:21.290 --> 25:24.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the way you said that, now I realize that's what we're going to be calling it.
[25:24.950 --> 25:25.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: A new hat at Haar.
[25:25.970 --> 25:27.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'll see you at Haar.
[25:27.170 --> 25:28.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll all be going to Haar together.
[25:28.390 --> 25:31.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, there was all these jokes, what the hat, what the this, what the that.
[25:32.030 --> 25:34.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: So you need to have some sort of joke, apparently, in Holland.
[25:36.350 --> 25:38.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're very funny people, yes.
[25:38.410 --> 25:38.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[25:39.410 --> 25:47.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm led to believe that, for those who may be unfamiliar, these events are called camps, but they are actually camps where you're pitching tents and being outdoors.
[25:47.390 --> 25:47.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Absolutely.
[25:47.850 --> 25:51.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: And all that other sort of stuff that some of us might not be too familiar with.
[25:51.370 --> 25:54.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I hope a lot of Americans, a lot more Americans go this time.
[25:54.930 --> 25:56.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: We seem to get more Americans each time.
[25:56.590 --> 26:00.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, Nick, you certainly got a lot of Americans to go to the German camp last year.
[26:00.650 --> 26:04.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And any ideas on how we can get some more Americans to take the trip overseas?
[26:05.730 --> 26:15.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, one thing that is actually in the works is called the Village of Hope, which we hope to have at Hacking at Random 2009.
[26:15.610 --> 26:18.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Just like we had American Village.
[26:18.890 --> 26:34.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: This time we're hoping to have a village that encompasses a lot of the sorts of things that go on and bring in a lot of the culture and the people who are familiar with the Hope Conferences to sort of make them feel, you know, drawn over to Europe to experience the incredible hacker culture that they have over there.
[26:35.650 --> 26:47.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Another interesting thing, Hack DC actually got a request from the ambassador of Soviet Intrigatorsdorf, the Honorable Nikita Khrushchev, I think is his name.
[26:47.910 --> 27:04.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he has requested that we build him an ambassadorial residence, which we are currently experimenting with, hopefully to incorporate technologies that's erecting a semi-permanent shelter on a campground with fully working shower, composting toilets,
[27:05.010 --> 27:11.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: and other things like that, because he said that the ambassador will not show up unless there's a specific permanent residence there.
[27:12.350 --> 27:17.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: As well, we're also planning on building a very, very large geodesic dome.
[27:18.130 --> 27:18.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, good.
[27:18.930 --> 27:20.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
[27:20.210 --> 27:30.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're trying to get... I mean, there are many, many designs, and actually a lot of what's been going on with DIY geodesic domes has been happening, either with the burners.
[27:30.570 --> 27:39.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're about getting, you know, gearing up for heading out to the playa, and people over in Europe who like to throw events and camps like this, like that.
[27:39.370 --> 27:51.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it would be a great way to sort of bring together all these communities that are coming together in hackerspace and helping build them here in the United States and getting them going over there to do exciting things at Hacking at Random 2009.
[27:51.430 --> 28:05.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I definitely like the idea of keeping the people that put hope together as a cohesive unit and traveling the world and sort of, I guess, sharing what we've learned with other people and taking part in their events as well.
[28:05.490 --> 28:08.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know we're planning on going to a couple of other conferences.
[28:08.090 --> 28:09.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully, as many of us can make it as possible.
[28:09.950 --> 28:11.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think ToorCon is on the list, right?
[28:12.110 --> 28:13.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: ToorCon is on the list.
[28:13.150 --> 28:28.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: And speaking of ToorCon, another event, I don't know if it's actually officially announced, but I guess between you, me, and the listenership, we can say that TourCamp will be happening at the beginning of the summer in 2009, most likely in Seattle towards the end of the rainy season.
[28:28.570 --> 28:30.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what's the date for ToorCon this year?
[28:31.790 --> 28:36.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, ToorCon is happening September 28th, or 27th, 28th, and 29th.
[28:36.950 --> 28:43.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: But TourCamp, the dates haven't been specifically worked out yet, but that will probably be happening in May or June of 2009.
[28:44.190 --> 28:44.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[28:44.610 --> 28:46.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And ToorCon, I believe, is happening in San Diego?
[28:47.030 --> 28:48.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: ToorCon, again, is happening in San Diego.
[28:48.470 --> 28:48.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[28:49.410 --> 28:52.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah, a lot of activity on the hacker radar.
[28:52.330 --> 28:57.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, of course, is the CCC Congress in December, which we always try to make it to as well.
[28:58.250 --> 29:00.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, a lot going on, a lot happening.
[29:01.150 --> 29:01.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: And...
[29:01.830 --> 29:02.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead, Mike.
[29:03.770 --> 29:08.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rob did mention that this event, the horror, involves camping.
[29:08.430 --> 29:11.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: But we should clarify for the audience that it's a very easy sort of camping.
[29:11.810 --> 29:14.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Even if you don't normally go outside, you can handle this.
[29:14.830 --> 29:17.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, it's pretty fun.
[29:17.810 --> 29:32.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, as someone, I believe your tent was last seen floating down a river, was there any tips that you could lend to people as to what to do, what not to do, to make the camping experience most enjoyable?
[29:33.170 --> 29:38.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, if you want, you could not buy the absolute cheapest possible tent.
[29:38.610 --> 29:39.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: That might be a good tip.
[29:40.570 --> 29:44.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm still working on figuring out how to get a completely rain-proof tent.
[29:44.670 --> 29:46.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe I'll manage it this time around.
[29:46.470 --> 29:48.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it really doesn't matter.
[29:49.590 --> 29:49.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[29:50.750 --> 29:51.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[29:51.470 --> 29:52.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some good memories.
[29:53.150 --> 29:56.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good memories we all seem to have from the last camp.
[29:56.430 --> 29:57.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: It really is fun.
[29:57.570 --> 29:58.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it sounds...
[29:58.350 --> 30:03.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: It always rains at least one point in the week or weekend or however much time it takes.
[30:03.910 --> 30:04.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's...
[30:04.610 --> 30:05.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: You remember it for the rest of your life.
[30:05.990 --> 30:07.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: It definitely is a positive experience.
[30:07.450 --> 30:07.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right?
[30:07.570 --> 30:08.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not Kevin?
[30:08.170 --> 30:08.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very positive.
[30:08.810 --> 30:14.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: I remember when it first started raining, I happened to be hanging out with the Austrians, and we all just started playing soccer in the mud.
[30:15.090 --> 30:15.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[30:15.390 --> 30:17.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just running around and having a blast with the rain.
[30:17.530 --> 30:25.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, Johannes came here, one of the Austrians from Vienna, and did a terrific panel and closing ceremonies.
[30:25.810 --> 30:30.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And basically, you meet people that you stay in touch with and do other things with in the future.
[30:30.190 --> 30:33.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's an incredible investment of your time.
[30:33.710 --> 30:39.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're telling you this far in advance so that you can plan for it and start saving up for the airfare, which undoubtedly will go up.
[30:39.790 --> 30:39.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[30:40.670 --> 30:42.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Nick, is there an official website?
[30:44.410 --> 30:46.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: An official website for Hacking at Random?
[30:46.750 --> 30:46.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[30:47.210 --> 30:50.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: It is har, H-A-R, 2009.org.
[30:51.310 --> 30:51.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[30:52.110 --> 30:52.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I guess...
[30:52.750 --> 30:54.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a wiki and a mailing list.
[30:54.510 --> 31:00.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: I strongly encourage you to sign up for both their announce list and their discussion list since things are already happening and planning is in the works.
[31:01.210 --> 31:01.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[31:01.530 --> 31:03.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it may start off a little bit slow.
[31:03.530 --> 31:04.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: It might seem to be a little bit slow.
[31:04.710 --> 31:08.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: But believe me, it's going to start kicking into full gear very, very soon.
[31:08.430 --> 31:11.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I definitely want to be a part of this one.
[31:11.610 --> 31:12.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think we will be.
[31:12.910 --> 31:18.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of what we're talking about and planning right now is set to go live on the wiki probably by next week.
[31:18.830 --> 31:19.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Great.
[31:20.030 --> 31:20.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[31:20.350 --> 31:24.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's what's going on with us, with the various things, projects we've been involved with.
[31:25.070 --> 31:30.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I also wanted to mention we had a 2600 meeting last Friday, which was really pretty incredible.
[31:30.270 --> 31:34.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was our first post-HOPE 2600 meeting, so a lot of people came together who were at the conference.
[31:36.050 --> 31:43.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what was especially amazing, and Bernie, I have to give you full credit for making this happen, was that Jim was able to show up.
[31:43.210 --> 31:47.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our co-host, who suffered a stroke last year, has been making incredible progress.
[31:47.410 --> 31:53.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: He wasn't at the meeting, but at dinner afterwards, where we basically would take over an entire restaurant.
[31:53.290 --> 31:54.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: He made an appearance.
[31:54.650 --> 31:56.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: The entire place erupted into applause.
[31:57.050 --> 31:58.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that was really incredible.
[31:58.970 --> 32:01.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was an incredible situation to witness.
[32:02.170 --> 32:03.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he held up a pretty...
[32:04.410 --> 32:07.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: He hosted a pretty impressive poker game later that evening, too.
[32:07.510 --> 32:08.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, it was...
[32:09.150 --> 32:10.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's recovering quite well, I might say.
[32:13.870 --> 32:14.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[32:15.470 --> 32:15.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[32:16.070 --> 32:19.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, that was a bit of history.
[32:19.090 --> 32:19.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[32:19.410 --> 32:23.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm a little distracted, because there's somebody in the radio station who's coming through my ear.
[32:24.190 --> 32:24.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[32:24.730 --> 32:29.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe one of you could wander through the station and find out who's talking on a microphone that somehow is winding up in my ear.
[32:29.910 --> 32:31.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's very distracting.
[32:31.230 --> 32:32.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how it's happening.
[32:32.670 --> 32:33.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know where it's coming from.
[32:34.510 --> 32:35.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe it's this button here.
[32:35.950 --> 32:36.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[32:36.170 --> 32:38.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: I press the button, and I'm a lot louder now.
[32:38.670 --> 32:41.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just had somebody saying, testing, one, two, three, four, in my head.
[32:42.150 --> 32:44.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't tell you how distracting that is.
[32:45.110 --> 32:46.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does this happen to you often?
[32:46.130 --> 32:46.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: What have you been doing?
[32:47.470 --> 32:48.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not often enough, I guess.
[32:48.870 --> 32:49.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[32:49.430 --> 32:51.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Are you sure you're not just hearing voices, Emmanuel?
[32:52.170 --> 32:54.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'm not hearing them anymore, because I hit this button.
[32:54.410 --> 33:01.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: The monitor button, and apparently if you hit that red monitor button, you get to monitor somebody else in the studio, in the station someplace.
[33:01.450 --> 33:02.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't even see them.
[33:02.510 --> 33:03.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know where they are.
[33:03.650 --> 33:04.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: It might be a voice from the past.
[33:04.810 --> 33:05.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[33:05.510 --> 33:05.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: News.
[33:06.250 --> 33:09.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Any news items that people wish to focus on this week?
[33:09.390 --> 33:11.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: What about this major security breach?
[33:11.770 --> 33:12.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Alex, go ahead.
[33:12.870 --> 33:15.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Something about 40 million people's information.
[33:15.990 --> 33:16.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[33:16.690 --> 33:17.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I saw that.
[33:18.030 --> 33:20.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was all over the news in the last couple of days.
[33:20.330 --> 33:25.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I believe the headline basically was that hackers were responsible for this.
[33:26.070 --> 33:26.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[33:26.190 --> 33:27.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they said they were war driving.
[33:28.090 --> 33:29.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard that this morning.
[33:29.350 --> 33:31.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hackers steal 40 million credit card numbers.
[33:32.970 --> 33:35.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I know a bunch of hackers, but I don't know anybody who did this.
[33:35.830 --> 33:41.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: 11 people were indicted yesterday for allegedly stealing more than 40 million credit and debit card numbers.
[33:42.110 --> 33:46.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: The indictments allege that at least nine major US retailers were hacked.
[33:46.430 --> 33:50.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that was unsealed on Tuesday in Boston and San Diego.
[33:50.990 --> 33:56.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's believed to be the largest hacking case that the Justice Department has ever tried to prosecute.
[33:56.830 --> 33:58.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Three of the defendants are from the United States.
[33:58.370 --> 33:59.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Three from Estonia.
[33:59.470 --> 34:00.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Three from Ukraine.
[34:00.530 --> 34:01.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Two are from China.
[34:01.390 --> 34:02.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And one is from Belarus.
[34:03.490 --> 34:05.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: The remaining individual is known only by an alias.
[34:05.770 --> 34:08.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: And authorities do not know where that person is.
[34:08.690 --> 34:11.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm going to try to find out if we even know what the alias is.
[34:12.370 --> 34:16.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I got to say, you know, looking at this, where is the hacking here?
[34:16.950 --> 34:19.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, we've asked this question so many times.
[34:19.010 --> 34:25.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Every time something happens with credit card numbers, they say hackers are the only people who could possibly do this.
[34:25.990 --> 34:26.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not that difficult.
[34:27.190 --> 34:28.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Does anybody know what actually happened here?
[34:28.690 --> 34:34.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I heard that they were using some kind of war driving technique going around these various places.
[34:34.330 --> 34:39.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it seems really, really silly, I think, to broadcast out customer information like that over a wireless network.
[34:39.990 --> 34:42.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: That seems criminally negligent to me, to be honest with you.
[34:42.270 --> 34:42.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[34:43.410 --> 34:45.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: And somehow they connected this with war driving.
[34:45.770 --> 34:51.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is the technical term that was being thrown about this morning on, I think, the local Fox station here in New York.
[34:52.490 --> 34:53.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was interesting.
[34:54.130 --> 34:58.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Actually, just two days ago, somebody started to use my debit card when I was in Europe.
[34:58.870 --> 35:01.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: I wonder if I was one of the unlucky 40 million.
[35:01.470 --> 35:03.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: They started to just use your debit card.
[35:03.750 --> 35:05.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was very interesting, actually.
[35:05.210 --> 35:07.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was, you know, because I was in Europe for the last year.
[35:07.470 --> 35:09.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was living over in England, going back to school.
[35:10.410 --> 35:11.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I was trying to leave London.
[35:11.970 --> 35:13.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: It took me about three days to leave London.
[35:13.270 --> 35:13.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was another story.
[35:14.050 --> 35:14.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: We don't have to get into that now.
[35:15.110 --> 35:16.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: But anyhow, so I'm checking my bank account.
[35:16.750 --> 35:17.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: It took you three days to leave London?
[35:17.790 --> 35:18.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: It took me three days, yeah.
[35:18.930 --> 35:19.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are they under siege or something?
[35:20.510 --> 35:21.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you'd be surprised.
[35:21.630 --> 35:22.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: A blockade, maybe?
[35:22.830 --> 35:25.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, basically two and a half full days at Heathrow trying to get on the standby.
[35:25.470 --> 35:26.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, Heathrow, okay.
[35:26.290 --> 35:26.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[35:27.150 --> 35:29.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: You just have to say Heathrow, and you don't have to explain anymore.
[35:29.710 --> 35:34.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eventually, I had to fly to Edinburgh, drank till five in the morning, then got on an 11 o'clock flight, got back to New York yesterday.
[35:34.530 --> 35:36.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's how the pilots do it, so you might as well do it, too.
[35:36.750 --> 35:37.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly, yeah, at least in BA.
[35:39.430 --> 35:40.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we'll be hearing from them later.
[35:40.830 --> 35:48.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyhow, so I checked my bank account from southeast London at a buddy of mine's place, and I'm thinking to myself, what the hell have I been spending my money on?
[35:48.610 --> 35:50.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Have I really been drinking that much?
[35:50.010 --> 35:51.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was about $1,200 missing.
[35:52.030 --> 36:01.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: I start checking the account, and there's $150 missing from Texaco in South Carolina, $150 from another Texaco in North Carolina.
[36:01.790 --> 36:02.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Someone's got an SUV.
[36:02.710 --> 36:04.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Somebody's got an SUV, exactly.
[36:04.590 --> 36:05.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know.
[36:05.330 --> 36:07.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's probably one of these navigators or something.
[36:07.290 --> 36:08.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, here's my question.
[36:08.230 --> 36:10.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't they need a PIN in order to be able to use a debit card?
[36:10.690 --> 36:11.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[36:11.190 --> 36:15.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can use a debit card like a credit card, and it still comes out of your checking account, which was kind of scary.
[36:16.350 --> 36:18.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the bizarre thing was it was only at Texaco's.
[36:19.110 --> 36:19.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Really?
[36:19.670 --> 36:20.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: Only at Texaco's.
[36:20.790 --> 36:22.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: $150 at each Texaco.
[36:22.450 --> 36:23.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Brand loyalty.
[36:23.330 --> 36:24.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, brand loyalty.
[36:24.230 --> 36:27.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or there's something about Texaco's that allows them to do this very easily.
[36:27.230 --> 36:27.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Dot Red is here.
[36:28.050 --> 36:29.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were late, but...
[36:29.090 --> 36:30.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, but I'm here now.
[36:30.150 --> 36:30.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome to the studio.
[36:30.930 --> 36:31.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's up?
[36:31.290 --> 36:33.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just wanted to say, that actually sounds very familiar.
[36:33.510 --> 36:35.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something happened to me about two months ago.
[36:35.630 --> 36:36.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Were you visiting Texaco's?
[36:37.130 --> 36:37.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, no.
[36:37.670 --> 36:37.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[36:38.430 --> 36:39.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something you did or something happened to you?
[36:39.810 --> 36:39.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no.
[36:39.870 --> 36:40.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something happened to me.
[36:41.050 --> 36:41.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[36:41.650 --> 36:49.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, this was in New York, but the same thing happened where about $1,200, $1,400 started missing from my bank account.
[36:49.090 --> 36:49.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[36:49.850 --> 36:52.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I saw the charges were all coming from shell stations.
[36:52.510 --> 36:53.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Shell stations?
[36:53.330 --> 36:53.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[36:54.630 --> 36:55.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Fascinating.
[36:55.390 --> 36:55.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[36:55.610 --> 36:57.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: The plot's pretty damn thick already.
[36:57.370 --> 36:58.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[36:58.550 --> 37:00.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie, have any insight onto what's going on here?
[37:00.670 --> 37:02.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it was one of those shell accounts.
[37:02.770 --> 37:03.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ah, there you go.
[37:03.590 --> 37:04.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Very punny.
[37:04.710 --> 37:06.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, it's really odd.
[37:07.050 --> 37:19.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really unsure as to why, other than brand loyalty of these criminals, why it would be consistently, why the bogus charges would consistently appear at just one brand of gas station.
[37:19.270 --> 37:22.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no technical reason why that would be necessary.
[37:22.410 --> 37:28.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, I'm wondering, uh, uh, was the, uh, was your card ever used?
[37:28.810 --> 37:32.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, the person whose, whose, uh, card was just, card number was just filled, so debit card number.
[37:33.170 --> 37:33.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alex.
[37:33.490 --> 37:37.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did you ever, yeah, did you ever use it, Alex, at a, uh, at a Texaco station?
[37:37.350 --> 37:39.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I haven't even been in the country for the last year.
[37:40.010 --> 37:42.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean, over, like over a year ago, did you ever use it at a Texaco station?
[37:42.030 --> 37:43.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think so, actually.
[37:43.490 --> 37:44.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't even been driving.
[37:44.270 --> 37:47.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Once I moved into D.C., I got rid of my car, so I haven't, yeah, I haven't filled up at all.
[37:47.990 --> 37:58.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, Bernie, like Emmanuel said, um, it could be that there might be some, some, some stations nowadays, they have you like put the ZIP Code, your billing ZIP Code or something like that in, and it could be maybe Texaco doesn't have that restriction.
[37:58.630 --> 37:58.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[37:58.770 --> 38:00.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that would be why they were going to Texaco?
[38:00.770 --> 38:01.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Probably.
[38:01.170 --> 38:03.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they figure, you know, it works once at Texaco.
[38:03.370 --> 38:05.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's play it safe and keep using Texaco.
[38:05.730 --> 38:08.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's, that's maybe how a criminal mind might work.
[38:08.210 --> 38:11.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: But how do you think your card was, uh, your card number was obtained?
[38:11.490 --> 38:12.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have no idea.
[38:12.590 --> 38:14.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: It could have been any number of ways I imagine.
[38:14.150 --> 38:17.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I'm, I'm pretty careful about, you know, maintaining the privacy of that.
[38:17.530 --> 38:17.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[38:17.990 --> 38:19.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: For obvious reasons, but who knows?
[38:19.710 --> 38:19.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[38:19.890 --> 38:21.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, maybe I was one of these unlucky 40 million.
[38:22.090 --> 38:22.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[38:22.470 --> 38:28.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: That also could happen, you know, sometimes in restaurants, if you give them your card and they go away and come back, there's really, you know, quick card skimmers.
[38:28.570 --> 38:31.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: They just record as many numbers as they can.
[38:31.030 --> 38:31.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[38:31.350 --> 38:32.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's not that difficult to do.
[38:32.770 --> 38:37.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know in Europe, they, they come to you with a machine and they never actually leave your site.
[38:37.490 --> 38:39.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I've actually, first I, at first I found that really rude.
[38:40.650 --> 38:41.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because they're standing there, right.
[38:41.990 --> 38:45.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're standing at the table and you're paying, you know, and then they're, you know, they watch you put the tip down.
[38:45.690 --> 38:45.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[38:45.910 --> 38:48.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then they had to tip in and I thought, oh my God, this is such a vulgar practice.
[38:48.770 --> 38:49.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just go away.
[38:49.590 --> 38:50.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Take my money away.
[38:50.550 --> 38:50.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[38:51.110 --> 38:51.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, I don't know.
[38:51.870 --> 38:57.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: The only thing I could think of was that I did wire some money to the former deposed king of Nigeria a few weeks ago.
[38:58.010 --> 38:59.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that might be it.
[38:59.510 --> 38:59.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[38:59.870 --> 39:01.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: But he assured me everything was, you know, on the level.
[39:01.970 --> 39:03.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he spoke in all caps, I'll bet.
[39:03.590 --> 39:03.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: He did.
[39:03.870 --> 39:04.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[39:04.590 --> 39:09.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, I mean, if anything, if this teaches us anything, it's that the rise in gas prices caused the rise in identity theft.
[39:10.150 --> 39:13.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, we've got two people in the studio right here who were getting...
[39:13.130 --> 39:13.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, exactly.
[39:13.530 --> 39:14.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: You notice they both went to gas stations.
[39:15.150 --> 39:15.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a stop.
[39:15.910 --> 39:18.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, Alex, you said it was $150 each time.
[39:18.330 --> 39:20.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Was it really on the nose, $150 each time?
[39:20.450 --> 39:21.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, there was, you know, a variation.
[39:21.990 --> 39:22.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[39:22.350 --> 39:23.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: So then it probably...
[39:23.170 --> 39:24.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was approximately...
[39:24.530 --> 39:26.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: It probably was a gas tank being filled up.
[39:26.430 --> 39:27.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what I think.
[39:27.170 --> 39:27.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[39:27.230 --> 39:27.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It must have been.
[39:27.870 --> 39:28.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[39:28.170 --> 39:29.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And .ret, you?
[39:29.250 --> 39:33.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mine was actually rising, but at a variable rate.
[39:33.490 --> 39:33.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[39:34.130 --> 39:36.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, sort of like $20, then $40, then, you know, like $120.
[39:37.370 --> 39:37.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: It just...
[39:37.750 --> 39:40.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: The thing is, you have to keep your eye on your credit card statements.
[39:40.290 --> 39:44.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: You guys are not liable for this because you didn't do anything wrong, certainly.
[39:44.530 --> 39:46.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if you don't catch it, then you wind up paying for it.
[39:47.030 --> 39:47.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's true, actually.
[39:47.930 --> 39:50.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm actually a lawyer now these days.
[39:50.530 --> 39:51.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[39:51.370 --> 39:52.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stop, stop, stop.
[39:52.290 --> 39:53.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Dun, dun, dun, dun.
[39:54.470 --> 39:55.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're a lawyer?
[39:55.250 --> 39:55.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: You just...
[39:55.570 --> 39:56.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: You turned into a lawyer?
[39:56.330 --> 39:56.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: I did.
[39:58.390 --> 39:58.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: 2005.
[39:59.270 --> 40:00.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's why I was gone for so long.
[40:00.590 --> 40:00.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: How about that?
[40:00.650 --> 40:02.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: People leave the studio and then become a lawyer.
[40:02.410 --> 40:02.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know.
[40:02.870 --> 40:04.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's why I was gone in 2002.
[40:04.810 --> 40:05.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: I went to law school.
[40:06.030 --> 40:07.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: I graduated in 05.
[40:07.210 --> 40:09.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Then I've been working for the government for a while, sold out for the private practice.
[40:10.090 --> 40:14.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then I just finished a postgraduate law degree at Oxford last month.
[40:14.230 --> 40:14.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[40:14.610 --> 40:18.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so now I'm back, back in the States, back in private practice.
[40:19.050 --> 40:19.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[40:19.930 --> 40:20.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: So...
[40:20.290 --> 40:21.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah.
[40:21.150 --> 40:22.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: So about the bank accounts, actually.
[40:22.410 --> 40:24.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: I did study this, actually, in law school.
[40:24.210 --> 40:28.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you're only liable if you were negligent in reporting it.
[40:28.950 --> 40:29.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[40:29.110 --> 40:34.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Essentially, that means that if you knew about it and you didn't report it for an extended period of time, then you may not be able to get your money back.
[40:34.510 --> 40:34.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[40:34.890 --> 40:36.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: But that's pretty much...
[40:36.230 --> 40:36.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's it.
[40:36.970 --> 40:41.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Otherwise, especially with credit cards, it's a very consumer-oriented payment system.
[40:41.990 --> 40:45.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, there's no way you could tell somebody knows your credit card number.
[40:45.710 --> 40:45.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[40:46.050 --> 40:48.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: You might know if somebody took your credit card.
[40:48.410 --> 40:49.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: You might know that.
[40:49.630 --> 40:51.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the numbers, they're not hard to get.
[40:52.270 --> 40:53.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're in so many places.
[40:54.090 --> 40:58.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I know, Bernie, you have a particular issue with this being referred to as hacking, right?
[40:59.470 --> 40:59.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[40:59.890 --> 41:19.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, as you mentioned earlier, it doesn't require any hacking at all if these companies, these large companies like TJ Maxx, I believe was one of them, Home Depot, were broadcasting customers' credit and debit card information, broadcasting it over the air in the clear.
[41:19.570 --> 41:20.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's just...
[41:20.670 --> 41:30.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so egregiously negligent that I think they should be prosecuted for mishandling consumers' private information.
[41:30.650 --> 41:33.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's why this happened in the first place.
[41:33.550 --> 41:44.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of, you know, going after people who picked this stuff out of thin air, which was just broadcast in the clear is, yeah, I mean, that's one way that investigation can go.
[41:44.490 --> 41:51.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: But why don't we address why it's happening in the first place, which is careless handling of people's information and credit card numbers?
[41:51.510 --> 41:52.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not happening.
[41:52.510 --> 41:55.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why it's not happening, but the Justice Department is barking up the wrong tree.
[41:55.990 --> 41:56.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[41:56.650 --> 42:03.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think what's interesting also is that, I mean, a lot of this stems from the fact that we've really antiquated ways of dealing with these transactions.
[42:03.830 --> 42:07.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, using mag stripes, just numbers on mag stripes, numbers you can use anywhere.
[42:08.590 --> 42:09.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's totally...
[42:09.310 --> 42:11.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: When I was in Finland, I had...
[42:11.230 --> 42:13.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: My debit card had a smart chip on it.
[42:13.410 --> 42:14.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you couldn't just copy that.
[42:14.830 --> 42:16.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: You really needed specialized hardware to do that.
[42:17.010 --> 42:18.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't just go in a back room and swipe it.
[42:18.950 --> 42:20.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's got its own circuitry in it.
[42:20.450 --> 42:25.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And also, any time I transacted something online, I actually had a list of one-time-use pins.
[42:26.030 --> 42:29.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: And so if that ran out, the bank would send me a new list, or when it was close to running out.
[42:30.110 --> 42:30.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: But there was...
[42:30.850 --> 42:33.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, if you get someone's...
[42:33.010 --> 42:35.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: a look at someone's credit card, you could go and start making online purchases.
[42:36.190 --> 42:40.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, okay, and that obviously is a more secure method of dealing with credit cards.
[42:40.430 --> 42:49.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: My question is, here in the United States, the same companies, Visa, MasterCard, is it possible for us to get a card that has a chip on it instead of the MagStripe?
[42:49.830 --> 42:51.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it is possible.
[42:51.490 --> 42:52.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not 100% sure.
[42:52.450 --> 42:54.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the thing is that it's not common practice.
[42:54.270 --> 43:02.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the thing is, when I was in England, and Alex, you can probably verify this, there are places that won't take my credit card because it has a MagStripe and doesn't have a chip on it.
[43:02.990 --> 43:07.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you have a Visa card, but the place that takes Visa doesn't take your Visa.
[43:07.710 --> 43:08.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's really frustrating.
[43:08.710 --> 43:08.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's true.
[43:08.790 --> 43:13.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: They really rely on the chip and pin practice over there to verify somebody's identity.
[43:13.610 --> 43:20.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I thought the interesting thing was they would actually really examine your signature on the back of the card.
[43:20.610 --> 43:20.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[43:20.950 --> 43:27.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if your signature was smudged or just rubbed off or whatever, was it legible, they wouldn't allow you to make the purchase.
[43:27.910 --> 43:29.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'd have to use another card that had a signature on it.
[43:29.870 --> 43:30.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that was their way of verifying.
[43:31.110 --> 43:33.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it's very easy, I think, to replicate a signature.
[43:33.310 --> 43:35.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the chip and pin is really what they rely upon now.
[43:36.350 --> 43:38.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, what I really don't understand is if it's...
[43:38.530 --> 43:41.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have the technology, and I'm sure it can't be that expensive to roll out.
[43:41.730 --> 43:46.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: So if these banks and these credit card companies are suffering from all this identity theft, why don't they just go ahead and do it?
[43:46.390 --> 43:48.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because they're not really the ones that are suffering.
[43:48.390 --> 43:54.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just simply raise rates and they enroll you in these, quote unquote, free credit report programs.
[43:54.950 --> 43:55.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[43:55.310 --> 43:55.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're doing...
[43:55.750 --> 43:58.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think they're doing quite well with all this and fear mongering as well.
[43:59.070 --> 44:01.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess there's not enough demand in the US to push for these kinds of things.
[44:01.870 --> 44:02.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or it's just...
[44:02.550 --> 44:03.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just not known.
[44:03.870 --> 44:03.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[44:04.550 --> 44:06.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if I can interject...
[44:06.170 --> 44:06.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead, Nick.
[44:06.750 --> 44:12.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: ...the United States is an incredibly large, incredibly diversified credit market.
[44:12.870 --> 44:13.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's...
[44:13.830 --> 44:18.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: In Europe and other places, we've got things controlled by much more central banks and clearing houses and things like that.
[44:18.890 --> 44:28.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: But here in the United States, if one person's unhappy or if a bank tries to roll out one sort of security method, they have to replace all of the machines and all of the hardware and all of the equipment.
[44:28.410 --> 44:41.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they've done studies, many, many studies of this they've seen is what we're losing to credit card fraud more or less than what it would take for us to replace the entire card infrastructure, reissue cards to all of the people who have them.
[44:41.630 --> 44:47.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Remember, Europe, people have one debit card and maybe one credit card.
[44:47.370 --> 44:55.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: The average consumer in the United States has anywhere between 2.5 and 3 credit cards on top of maybe one or two debit cards.
[44:56.250 --> 45:00.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: The total infrastructure investment to be able to roll that out nationwide...
[45:00.410 --> 45:08.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, as a country, the United States has many, many more of these devices as the common EU market as a whole.
[45:09.470 --> 45:11.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Probably by... and maybe even by a multiple of two.
[45:12.670 --> 45:18.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because most of the transactions that we have... I mean, we use credit much, much, much more frequently here in the United States.
[45:18.870 --> 45:22.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we use credit on many more... many other different systems.
[45:22.730 --> 45:25.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Whereas in other countries, you see a much greater use of debit.
[45:25.390 --> 45:26.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: You see a much greater use of credit.
[45:26.590 --> 45:32.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: You see a much... I mean, a much greater use of not credit, but specific store credit.
[45:32.710 --> 45:32.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[45:32.930 --> 45:39.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's much more common for people to have an account with a vendor, which is starting to get less common here.
[45:39.350 --> 45:42.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you see that in some major, major big chain stores.
[45:42.950 --> 45:44.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: But most people don't use those.
[45:44.270 --> 45:45.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: They prefer to just use their regular credit card.
[45:46.110 --> 45:49.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: Or they have a store credit that's tied to a credit account that they can use anywhere.
[45:49.570 --> 45:52.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: They see MasterCard, Visa, et cetera, et cetera.
[45:52.650 --> 46:00.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: It might be a good opportunity for some other company or a branch of an existing company to step forward and introduce this new technology, new for us.
[46:00.130 --> 46:02.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And have it become more and more popular.
[46:02.510 --> 46:11.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when people see that if I use this particular card, I'm not subjected to the identity theft and fraud that the other cards seem to be prone to.
[46:11.730 --> 46:13.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then all of a sudden, you have a demand for it.
[46:14.370 --> 46:16.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they've tried to do that in several...
[46:16.710 --> 46:17.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: They've tried to do that several ways.
[46:18.010 --> 46:21.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's one common thing that comes to mind is SpeedPass.
[46:22.110 --> 46:23.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not an incredibly...
[46:23.130 --> 46:27.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not incredibly more secure than a credit card system, but it failed to catch on.
[46:28.010 --> 46:33.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of it was largely killed to valet drivers who would just see the, you know, the little...
[46:34.630 --> 46:43.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: SpeedPass thing was basically a stick that was at the end of your key chain that you would wave in front of the SpeedPass thing and move on and purchase it.
[46:43.270 --> 46:46.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Valet car drivers were actually taking those, cloning them, and then using them.
[46:46.910 --> 46:50.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: And since they get cleared against a credit card, there is a lot of fraud there.
[46:50.910 --> 46:57.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of these new technologies get hit in the press by new reports of fraud.
[46:57.650 --> 47:01.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Every single secure system they try to roll out instantly gets hacked.
[47:01.330 --> 47:05.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: The press says, oh, this new system has gotten, you know, compromised.
[47:05.450 --> 47:09.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And therefore, people don't see any need to go ahead and use those systems.
[47:09.410 --> 47:14.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: And banks don't see any need to roll out a lot of brand new systems in light of all this bad press.
[47:14.870 --> 47:20.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing about the United States as a whole is that consumers here are incredibly resistant to change.
[47:21.190 --> 47:26.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're incredibly bad first adopters as when you look across the developed world.
[47:26.350 --> 47:29.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you try to roll something out in Germany, it will largely gain acceptance.
[47:29.610 --> 47:33.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you try to roll something out here, they'll try to roll it out in big markets.
[47:33.570 --> 47:36.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: All it has to do is fail in one of the three markets.
[47:36.590 --> 47:39.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then whatever institution tries to roll it out, we'll just pull the plug on it.
[47:39.830 --> 47:42.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's one of the problems of being such a huge nation.
[47:42.110 --> 47:46.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: If we did things maybe on a smaller scale, we might see more flexibility.
[47:46.570 --> 47:47.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're slow moving.
[47:47.550 --> 47:48.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: We are slow moving.
[47:48.430 --> 47:50.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what big giants tend to be.
[47:51.430 --> 47:55.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Bernie, I know moving along, you also had an interesting story about...
[47:55.830 --> 47:59.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were talking about war driving, but something about war walking?
[48:00.130 --> 48:09.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: A new catchphrase has been added to the lexicon, with apologies to the lexicon, called text walking.
[48:09.430 --> 48:12.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the problem has been...
[48:12.330 --> 48:15.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let me explain some of the problems that text walking has created, which...
[48:15.850 --> 48:22.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Text walking is basically walking across the street while you are texting on your cell phone or PDA.
[48:24.050 --> 48:30.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: In San Francisco, a woman was killed by a pickup truck this year when she stepped off a curb while texting.
[48:30.310 --> 48:34.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: In Bakersfield, a man was killed by a car while crossing the street and texting.
[48:35.070 --> 48:40.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: A 15-year-old girl fell off her horse while texting, suffering head and back injuries.
[48:40.690 --> 48:46.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a 13-year-old girl suffered belly, leg, and arm burns after texting her boyfriend while cooking noodles.
[48:47.530 --> 48:54.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a 30-year-old advertising employee who walked straight into a stop sign while texting and bumping his head.
[48:54.090 --> 48:54.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wait a minute, hold on a second.
[48:55.010 --> 48:59.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you know, all those stories you just told sounded, you know, pretty compelling.
[48:59.590 --> 49:04.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: But who was it that actually reported that somebody walked into a stop sign while texting?
[49:04.330 --> 49:06.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, do you file a police report for that?
[49:06.570 --> 49:07.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: How does that even get known?
[49:08.250 --> 49:12.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was actually an advertising, a 30-year-old advertising employee who...
[49:12.790 --> 49:13.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[49:13.010 --> 49:17.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: He actually admitted this himself, that he walked straight into a stop sign while texting and bumping his head.
[49:18.610 --> 49:21.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it knocked some sense, but there's a solution for this.
[49:21.430 --> 49:22.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, what's the solution?
[49:22.310 --> 49:28.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the Illinois General Assembly has introduced House Bill 4520.
[49:31.010 --> 49:33.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Representative Ken Duncan is a Democrat in Chicago.
[49:34.070 --> 49:42.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: He insisted that this is becoming more and more of a common problem with people haplessly crossing an intersection and almost killing themselves, end quote.
[49:42.950 --> 49:57.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the penalty for text-walking under this proposed legislation is that Illinois residents would be slapped with a misdemeanor offense and a $25 fine if caught using a cell phone or other wireless device while traversing streets.
[49:57.510 --> 49:58.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, wait a minute.
[49:58.390 --> 49:59.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: First of all, I had the phrase wrong.
[49:59.750 --> 50:00.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not war-walking.
[50:00.610 --> 50:01.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's text-walking.
[50:01.530 --> 50:01.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[50:02.750 --> 50:03.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[50:03.450 --> 50:04.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think I prefer war-walking, actually.
[50:04.790 --> 50:14.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you're saying that they're going to hand down fines to people that are just seen walking down the street texting as if being hit by cars isn't enough of a penalty.
[50:14.970 --> 50:23.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now they're going to actually fine people on the spot just because they're doing something that could potentially, maybe, if they're very careless, get them into some kind of hot water.
[50:23.430 --> 50:24.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that what this is?
[50:24.810 --> 50:26.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not walking along the street.
[50:26.510 --> 50:26.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Walking...
[50:27.630 --> 50:30.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: According to the statutory language, it's while traversing the street.
[50:31.010 --> 50:32.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're crossing the street...
[50:32.270 --> 50:32.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[50:32.790 --> 50:42.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: ...while texting, and you're spotted by a police officer, they can charge you with text-walking, which is a misdemeanor, and you can be fined $25.
[50:42.810 --> 50:44.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: What if you're talking on the phone?
[50:44.390 --> 50:45.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that considered hazardous, too?
[50:46.050 --> 50:46.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it also...
[50:46.750 --> 50:55.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: The way the statutory language is that residents will be slapped with a misdemeanor and $25 fine if caught using a cell phone or other wireless device while traversing streets.
[50:55.870 --> 50:59.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that could be... that could be texting or actually using the phone.
[50:59.990 --> 51:00.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: So...
[51:00.150 --> 51:01.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, Bernie asks...
[51:01.530 --> 51:01.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes?
[51:01.930 --> 51:03.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't want to...
[51:03.250 --> 51:08.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I guess I can admit it because it's not a crime yet, but I have done just that while on this very radio show.
[51:08.710 --> 51:11.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've crossed some streets while talking to you people.
[51:11.690 --> 51:14.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: Should I be worried if I were in Chicago?
[51:14.650 --> 51:16.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: I could get in trouble for that.
[51:16.050 --> 51:26.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if this vote, if this bill, House Bill 4520 is enacted, then yes, you should look both ways before you text or use a cell phone while traversing a street in Chicago.
[51:26.650 --> 51:31.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, wait a minute, I think you should look for the cops, not look both ways necessarily is what the lesson here is.
[51:31.910 --> 51:33.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, look both ways for both reasons.
[51:33.570 --> 51:33.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[51:34.230 --> 51:39.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: I see no feasible way of absolutely enforcing this because you can be slapped with this fine for just having your cell phone out.
[51:39.970 --> 51:41.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's no way to prove that you weren't texting or not.
[51:41.770 --> 51:43.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, what if you're playing a game?
[51:43.510 --> 51:44.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: What if you're dialing a number?
[51:44.710 --> 51:45.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[51:45.290 --> 51:46.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: What if you're on speakerphone and it looks like you're texting?
[51:47.030 --> 51:50.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: What if you hit end really quickly and then just hold it up and say, look, I was just looking at my screen.
[51:50.830 --> 51:52.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: What if you're just admiring your phone?
[51:52.270 --> 51:54.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Mark, you've got an iPhone there.
[51:54.690 --> 51:58.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And many times I've caught you just simply looking at it with admiration.
[51:58.750 --> 51:59.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: And many people do that.
[51:59.890 --> 52:00.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Many people do that.
[52:00.490 --> 52:02.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have iPhones and it's really kind of cool to just glance at.
[52:03.090 --> 52:06.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you saying crossing the street, admiring your iPhone, you're going to get slapped with a fine?
[52:06.750 --> 52:07.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that what you're telling me, Bernie?
[52:07.870 --> 52:08.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: It could happen.
[52:08.750 --> 52:11.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I ran into this problem last week myself in Philadelphia.
[52:11.950 --> 52:24.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was at the Philadelphia Parking Authority on Filbert Street paying a parking ticket and I was standing in line and there were all these signs saying, absolutely, it's absolutely prohibited to use your cell phone while on these premises.
[52:24.150 --> 52:29.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: So after I paid my fine, I walked up to the security guard who had yelled at two people who were in line using their cell phone.
[52:29.910 --> 52:32.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, can I use my cell phone to send a text message?
[52:32.930 --> 52:34.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: He said, well, they don't want people using cell phones at all.
[52:35.110 --> 52:37.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: I said, well, how about if it receives a text message?
[52:37.630 --> 52:39.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I have no control over that, if it just comes through.
[52:40.450 --> 52:41.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: What about that?
[52:41.230 --> 52:47.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: He said, well, the reason they have this rule is because it shuts down all the computers there behind the counter.
[52:47.310 --> 52:51.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I said, are you serious that using a cell phone shuts down all the computers?
[52:51.230 --> 52:52.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he said it happened before.
[52:52.850 --> 52:55.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: They go down for 10 or 15 minutes when people use their cell phones.
[52:55.750 --> 52:58.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, boy, your IT people really need to get their act together.
[52:58.230 --> 53:02.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: That sounds like a problem that's not necessarily a fault of the cell phones.
[53:02.510 --> 53:05.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just really bad infrastructure design back there.
[53:05.410 --> 53:05.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: But he was just...
[53:05.990 --> 53:15.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: It really depends on how they decide to word those laws because it could be something as simple as looking at your phone while touching the keypad or texting.
[53:17.130 --> 53:22.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that could make it either really, really fascist or extremely impossible to enforce.
[53:23.210 --> 53:24.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, Bernie, this is Alex.
[53:25.090 --> 53:26.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think this is just absolutely amazing.
[53:27.150 --> 53:29.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: You actually said that this would be a misdemeanor offense.
[53:29.970 --> 53:30.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, a misdemeanor offense.
[53:31.150 --> 53:32.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you'll get a criminal record.
[53:33.010 --> 53:33.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[53:33.690 --> 53:34.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Criminal record for texting.
[53:34.970 --> 53:35.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: For texting.
[53:35.770 --> 53:36.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is amazing.
[53:36.370 --> 53:40.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is a completely disproportionate punishment to what's being... to texting.
[53:40.250 --> 53:47.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: I gotta let my friend Lurid in Ohio know about this because he's the master of getting in trouble for the most minor of things and having it follow him for the rest of his life.
[53:48.070 --> 53:51.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: So texting while walking down the street, that definitely is something he would be interested in.
[53:51.710 --> 53:54.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: So then they'd have to really qualify what it means to use a phone.
[53:54.310 --> 53:58.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is looking at the time using it, is scratching an itch on my nose with the end of it using it.
[54:00.110 --> 54:00.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[54:00.610 --> 54:02.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we're gonna have to pretty much end on that.
[54:02.190 --> 54:03.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we do have another exciting announcement.
[54:03.710 --> 54:05.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Marques, you handed this to me.
[54:05.350 --> 54:18.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I believe in addition to all the audio going up on our website, and if you go www.hope.net, all the audio for the HOPE Conference, recently concluded HOPE Conference, is now up and being downloaded by thousands of people around the world.
[54:19.330 --> 54:24.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: We also have put up the, on the 2600 store, we have the official HOPE t-shirts.
[54:24.870 --> 54:25.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that correct?
[54:25.770 --> 54:25.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.
[54:25.890 --> 54:26.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[54:26.490 --> 54:35.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, that's got some amazing artwork by our, our French-Canadian artist, Fred up there in Montreal, put together some really amazing shirts.
[54:36.090 --> 54:39.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: That and also the, the brand new telephone security t-shirts.
[54:39.670 --> 54:41.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: So they're both available store.2600.com.
[54:42.110 --> 54:48.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, you can start experiencing the, the HOPE experience, I guess, if you weren't there, or even if you were there.
[54:49.030 --> 54:49.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[54:49.370 --> 54:51.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's gonna pretty much do it for us here this week.
[54:51.730 --> 54:54.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Closing out with another song about telephones.
[54:54.370 --> 55:02.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you have a song about telephones you'd like us to play at the end of the program, or if you just have something to say to us, oth@2600.com is our email address.
[55:02.310 --> 55:06.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the song this week is by Blondie.
[55:06.570 --> 55:08.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we'll see you next week.
[55:08.490 --> 55:08.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good night.
[55:08.970 --> 55:10.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good night.
[55:14.020 --> 55:15.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm in the phone booth.
[55:15.460 --> 55:16.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's the one across the hall.
[55:17.180 --> 55:19.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't answer, I'll just bring it off the floor.
[55:20.360 --> 55:23.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know he's there, but I just try to call.
[55:24.040 --> 55:28.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't leave me hanging on the telephone.
[55:30.080 --> 55:34.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't leave me hanging on the telephone.
[55:37.600 --> 55:40.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: I heard your mother, now she's going out the door.
[55:40.960 --> 55:43.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did she go to work or just go to the store?
[55:44.140 --> 55:46.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: All those things she said I told you to ignore.
[55:47.560 --> 55:49.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, why can't we talk again?
[55:50.520 --> 55:52.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, why can't we talk again?
[55:53.620 --> 55:55.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, why can't we talk again?
[55:57.380 --> 56:01.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: They've been hanging on the telephone.
[56:03.700 --> 56:07.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: They've been hanging on the telephone.
[56:08.980 --> 56:11.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's good to hear your voice, you know it's been so long.
[56:11.860 --> 56:15.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: If I don't get your calls, then everything goes wrong.
[56:15.520 --> 56:18.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I want to tell you something you've known all along.
[56:19.280 --> 56:23.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: They've been hanging on the telephone.
[56:38.880 --> 56:41.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had to interrupt and start this conversation.
[56:42.400 --> 56:44.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Your voice across the line gives me a strange sensation.
[56:45.500 --> 56:48.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to talk when I can show you my affection.
[56:49.000 --> 56:51.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I can't control myself.
[56:52.080 --> 56:54.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I can't control myself.
[56:55.100 --> 56:57.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I can't control myself.
[56:58.200 --> 57:02.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't leave me hanging on the telephone.
[57:03.900 --> 57:05.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hang on and run to me.
[57:05.880 --> 57:08.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, hang up and run to me.
[57:09.020 --> 57:11.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, hang up and run to me.
[57:12.220 --> 57:14.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, hang up and run to me.
[57:15.340 --> 57:17.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[57:29.700 --> 57:30.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah...
[57:30.320 --> 57:31.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Blondie.
[57:31.820 --> 57:32.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Blondie.
[57:32.440 --> 57:35.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Debra Harry hanging on the telephone.
[57:35.820 --> 57:38.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, these guys are off the hook.