Off The Hook - 2009-06-24

[00:02.480 --> 00:04.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: $839,000 and counting.
[00:05.100 --> 00:05.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[00:06.160 --> 00:21.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, on behalf of the devoted WBAI listeners, I want to thank all of you producers, your whole great staff, all of you selfless volunteers, the people who are so smart and futuristic as to listen to us on the Internet.
[00:21.600 --> 00:23.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
[00:23.240 --> 00:28.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, speaking for the producers, we want to thank the listeners, the staff, and the volunteers.
[00:29.320 --> 00:30.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Great job, thank you.
[00:30.800 --> 00:39.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And on behalf of the staff, I would like to thank the listeners, the volunteers, the producers, and those people who are listening on the Internet.
[00:40.040 --> 00:41.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you, thank you.
[00:41.120 --> 00:50.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: On behalf of the volunteers, I want to thank the volunteers, and the listeners, and the producers, and the staff, and the streamers and archivers.
[00:51.240 --> 00:56.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much for making this a wonderful experience and a home away from home.
[00:56.220 --> 01:05.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, yes, I would like to thank, on behalf of the savvy Internet listeners, the archivists, the streamers, global, worldwide, on the information superhighway.
[01:06.240 --> 01:13.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you to the listeners who listen on the radio, the producers, the staff, and our invaluable volunteers.
[01:14.080 --> 01:14.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, thank you.
[01:15.560 --> 01:16.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you.
[01:16.940 --> 01:17.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[01:17.860 --> 01:18.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[01:18.320 --> 01:18.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks, everybody.
[01:19.160 --> 01:19.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[01:19.420 --> 01:20.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no, thank you.
[01:20.700 --> 01:21.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, thank you.
[01:21.800 --> 01:22.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[01:22.300 --> 01:23.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, thank you.
[01:23.280 --> 01:24.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, thank you.
[01:24.120 --> 01:24.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, thank you.
[01:24.600 --> 01:26.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, hey, can somebody say you're welcome?
[01:27.240 --> 01:28.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're welcome.
[01:28.080 --> 01:28.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're welcome.
[01:29.760 --> 01:31.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think you will.
[01:32.000 --> 01:32.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks.
[01:32.840 --> 01:34.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's seven o'clock.
[01:34.460 --> 01:36.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[01:36.380 --> 01:37.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Time for Off The Hook.
[01:43.030 --> 01:44.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:45.350 --> 01:47.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:48.450 --> 01:50.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: I cut myself while shaving.
[01:50.950 --> 01:52.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:53.610 --> 01:55.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:56.130 --> 02:00.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: But Bum Diddly Bum for the best.
[02:00.130 --> 02:01.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Expect the worst.
[02:01.830 --> 02:03.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood.
[02:03.890 --> 02:04.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bum Diddly Bum!
[02:50.540 --> 02:51.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: And very good to hear everybody.
[02:51.820 --> 02:52.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:53.060 --> 02:55.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:56.340 --> 02:57.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Joined by Mike.
[02:58.060 --> 02:58.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[02:58.680 --> 02:59.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: RedHackt.
[02:59.420 --> 02:59.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[03:00.020 --> 03:00.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Rob T. Firefly.
[03:01.340 --> 03:01.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[03:01.860 --> 03:02.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Dot.ret.
[03:02.680 --> 03:03.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[03:03.360 --> 03:03.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Notkevin.
[03:04.260 --> 03:04.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[03:04.600 --> 03:06.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[03:08.420 --> 03:08.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry.
[03:08.820 --> 03:09.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: You get to say it louder, Bernie.
[03:10.280 --> 03:11.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:11.140 --> 03:11.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's better.
[03:11.760 --> 03:11.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[03:12.900 --> 03:14.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you're not in any trouble this week, right?
[03:15.360 --> 03:17.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, I haven't been deported from any countries this week.
[03:17.820 --> 03:18.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good.
[03:18.080 --> 03:18.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[03:18.340 --> 03:18.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's a good week then.
[03:19.880 --> 03:22.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you don't go to other countries, you won't get deported from them.
[03:22.380 --> 03:24.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: So stay home in Philadelphia, I guess.
[03:24.780 --> 03:25.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Any update though?
[03:25.660 --> 03:26.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you filing papers or things?
[03:27.860 --> 03:31.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've done some research on that, and it's an arduous process.
[03:31.800 --> 03:39.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: But I've got several offers from people who are willing to drive me across the border in less restricted parts of the border.
[03:39.700 --> 03:43.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, there are always people willing to take you out of this country and leave you someplace else.
[03:43.080 --> 03:46.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I'm sure that you need more help filling out the paperwork and things.
[03:47.700 --> 03:50.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you know, I'll be consulting with my legal counsel and so forth.
[03:51.440 --> 03:53.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't have an immigration attorney.
[03:53.520 --> 03:54.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: Maybe I should find one.
[03:54.980 --> 03:55.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[03:55.320 --> 03:59.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Any immigration attorneys listening to this program, email us, oth@2600.com.
[03:59.480 --> 04:00.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Help Bernie S.
[04:00.520 --> 04:02.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: be readmitted into Canada, where he has been banned.
[04:02.860 --> 04:05.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are they called lawyers or solicitors in Canada?
[04:06.840 --> 04:07.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, I don't know.
[04:08.060 --> 04:08.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: I have to find out.
[04:09.020 --> 04:10.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you need somebody in Canada or do you need somebody here?
[04:10.880 --> 04:11.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: He needs a Canadian.
[04:11.560 --> 04:14.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, probably someone most familiar with Canadian law would be better.
[04:14.240 --> 04:15.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: But I'll do some research.
[04:15.720 --> 04:19.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's going to be an ongoing work in progress, but I'm looking forward to it.
[04:20.080 --> 04:20.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[04:20.880 --> 04:23.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Speaking about things in progress, the unrest continues over in Iran.
[04:23.960 --> 04:34.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Tehran and the Internet playing a key role, as most of the media seems to have been closed down rather effectively, reporting what's going on in the streets of Tehran and other places.
[04:35.180 --> 04:38.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was looking at some tips on the Internet.
[04:38.840 --> 04:40.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: This actually has been out for a week or so.
[04:41.020 --> 04:48.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: But those of you involved in the whole Twitter revolution and whatever else is going on out there, where you...
[04:48.340 --> 04:49.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is anybody doing this?
[04:49.400 --> 04:50.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're changing your time zones?
[04:51.260 --> 04:51.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[04:51.380 --> 04:52.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're shaking your head.
[04:52.180 --> 04:53.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why haven't you changed your time zone to that?
[04:54.160 --> 04:55.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: I haven't gotten involved as all.
[04:55.480 --> 04:56.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Haven't gotten involved?
[04:56.400 --> 04:56.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nope.
[04:56.760 --> 04:56.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[04:56.980 --> 05:01.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's also not the slightest bit of evidence that it actually changes anything to change your time zone.
[05:01.500 --> 05:02.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is the theory?
[05:02.640 --> 05:03.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is the theory at least?
[05:03.820 --> 05:11.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: The theory is that if you change your time zone to that of Tehran, the authorities in Iran won't be able to tell the difference between you and a protester over there?
[05:11.240 --> 05:15.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't understand why don't they just block the entire domain if, I mean, the entire...
[05:15.240 --> 05:15.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[05:16.140 --> 05:19.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: That would shut down Twitter for people in Iran.
[05:19.360 --> 05:23.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I don't know what control they have over the Internet service providers, but if they control...
[05:23.620 --> 05:25.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it strikes me as kind of...
[05:25.000 --> 05:30.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: If it's like China, where they control, basically, what comes in and goes out, then that would be a way to stop it.
[05:30.880 --> 05:32.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I guess they probably don't.
[05:32.040 --> 05:34.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it strikes me as kind of a simplistic way of dealing with it.
[05:34.780 --> 05:40.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: And also, why not simply have everybody in Iran change their time zones to someplace else and confuse everybody?
[05:40.080 --> 05:41.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because it doesn't work.
[05:41.240 --> 05:43.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well, I mean, that might be the reason.
[05:43.180 --> 05:49.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you've got a lot of these things where, for example, I've seen, oh, support democracy in Iran, put a green overlay over your avatar.
[05:49.860 --> 05:50.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who cares?
[05:50.780 --> 05:51.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: What do you do?
[05:51.160 --> 05:52.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're not accomplishing anything by doing this.
[05:52.940 --> 05:54.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're just feeling better about yourself.
[05:54.300 --> 05:57.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, I'm helping by changing the color of my face.
[05:57.620 --> 05:58.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's very silly.
[06:11.240 --> 06:14.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this technology was supplied to them by Western companies, I understand.
[06:14.400 --> 06:14.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[06:14.860 --> 06:15.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, they were.
[06:15.540 --> 06:15.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very interesting.
[06:16.060 --> 06:17.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think Siemens is one of those companies?
[06:17.780 --> 06:18.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes.
[06:18.160 --> 06:19.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Nokia Siemens.
[06:19.000 --> 06:19.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[06:19.940 --> 06:29.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: European telecommunications companies have given them the most sophisticated mechanisms for controlling and censoring the Internet, allowing them to examine the content of individual online communications on a massive scale.
[06:29.660 --> 06:30.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[06:30.460 --> 06:34.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: That green icon thing is not something that's meant to affect change on its own, I don't think.
[06:34.480 --> 06:40.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: As I understand, it's basically the online equivalent of wearing a t-shirt or putting a sticker on your car saying, hey, I believe this about that issue.
[06:40.600 --> 06:40.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[06:40.940 --> 06:44.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Which is what Americans do to do the least work and think they're doing something.
[06:44.360 --> 06:48.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And like the t-shirts and badges, the person behind it may or may not actually be doing anything useful.
[06:48.280 --> 06:49.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it doesn't hurt, does it?
[06:50.120 --> 06:50.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, it's...
[06:50.860 --> 06:51.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just pointless.
[06:51.820 --> 06:53.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's pointless if that's all you do.
[06:53.360 --> 06:53.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: I agree.
[06:54.500 --> 06:58.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's also a way of having somebody say, hey, what does this mean?
[06:58.140 --> 07:02.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like when we had the Freak Heaven stickers on the cars, people would ask what that means and we'd tell them and more people would get involved that way.
[07:03.000 --> 07:05.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: So maybe this is waking people up in a similar way.
[07:06.320 --> 07:07.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're getting very cynical, Redact.
[07:08.080 --> 07:08.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's gotta be...
[07:08.680 --> 07:09.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: How would you reach people then?
[07:10.040 --> 07:11.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's your method?
[07:11.220 --> 07:12.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, look, it's easy enough.
[07:12.400 --> 07:12.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: You just...
[07:12.760 --> 07:15.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: If people are following you and you post something on Twitter, then they'll see it.
[07:15.960 --> 07:17.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: There, you've reached people.
[07:17.620 --> 07:18.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: You don't have to turn yourself green.
[07:19.300 --> 07:19.620]  Well...
[07:20.060 --> 07:23.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, but I think a post on Twitter isn't gonna reach as many people as turning yourself green.
[07:23.580 --> 07:23.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean...
[07:23.920 --> 07:24.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: How would it not?
[07:24.300 --> 07:25.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because everybody's posting on Twitter.
[07:25.940 --> 07:28.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Three of you have posted on Twitter since we started the show, I'll bet.
[07:28.380 --> 07:29.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's...
[07:29.420 --> 07:29.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's...
[07:29.860 --> 07:30.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: My phone is out of battery.
[07:30.820 --> 07:34.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm less interested in arguing about green than I am interested in censorship.
[07:34.700 --> 07:47.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what's interesting about the Iranian censorship is, first of all, that it's centralized, so there appears to be very few connectivity points between Iran and the rest of the world, so they have a very easy time of doing effective censorship.
[07:47.880 --> 08:05.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: But another interesting difference between the Iranian censorship regime and the Chinese one is that the Chinese one is made largely by Cisco, which is a US company, and there's an embargo, so Cisco can't sell its censorship products to Iran, so instead they get them from Europeans.
[08:05.420 --> 08:05.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see.
[08:06.380 --> 08:06.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Interesting.
[08:07.160 --> 08:11.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that the reason behind the embargo, to keep a technology like this out of...
[08:11.160 --> 08:16.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I would be hard-pressed to describe the reason for any embargo, but this is an effect of the embargo.
[08:17.180 --> 08:24.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, there were some tips that have been floating around on the Internet for people involved in this whole Iran thing via the net.
[08:24.880 --> 08:32.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Such things as, do not publicize proxy IPs over Twitter, and especially not using the pound Iran election hashtag.
[08:32.740 --> 08:37.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Security forces are monitoring this hashtag, and the moment they identify a proxy IP, they will block it in Iran.
[08:38.100 --> 08:38.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Makes sense.
[08:38.660 --> 08:40.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, this is common sense things.
[08:41.120 --> 08:48.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, the problem with something like that is that these hashtags are used to, as a way to find this information in the first place.
[08:48.640 --> 08:56.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you start putting it under tags that no one knows to look for, then what good is posting on Twitter in the first place?
[08:56.080 --> 08:59.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, but if everybody knows it, then they can post all kinds of disinformation on them.
[08:59.400 --> 09:01.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, you can search pretty much anything.
[09:01.380 --> 09:10.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, they index all the different words, so you don't have to put it under the hashtag for somebody to find it because there's a proxy or maybe IP number.
[09:10.640 --> 09:10.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[09:10.700 --> 09:13.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, then couldn't the security forces do the same thing, do the searches?
[09:13.140 --> 09:14.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Just the same as any user?
[09:14.380 --> 09:16.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right, but I mean, how many different searches are they going to make?
[09:16.680 --> 09:24.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you're really determined to find something and you're one person, you'll probably have an easier time of finding it than if you're a security force trying to find every instance of something.
[09:24.140 --> 09:36.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, while you say that, there was theories that them trying to search through all the the phone calls and text messages over the phone system actually massively slowed down the entire phone system.
[09:36.980 --> 09:42.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, if that's true, then that would send a precedent for them willing to go through extremely large amounts of information.
[09:42.900 --> 09:47.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, but the more you look for it, the more buried things become and the less you actually find.
[09:47.740 --> 09:48.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a glut of information.
[09:48.540 --> 09:49.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: The more you look through, rather.
[09:49.860 --> 09:53.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, and it bogs down the whole process whether you're an activist or a security person.
[09:53.920 --> 10:01.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think the salient point is that none of us here in the West really know one way or another, and we can make stuff up till we're blue in the face, but it's kind of silly.
[10:02.020 --> 10:09.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, with no media, and with the Internet being effectively blocked, and cell phones being controlled as well, how does the word get out?
[10:10.820 --> 10:11.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not satellite TV.
[10:12.220 --> 10:13.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, tell us about that, Bernie.
[10:14.600 --> 10:22.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, a lot of Iranians have illegal satellite TV reception dishes and receivers.
[10:22.040 --> 10:22.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[10:22.800 --> 10:23.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're banned.
[10:23.640 --> 10:24.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're not allowed.
[10:24.860 --> 10:26.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: But a lot of people have them anyway.
[10:26.260 --> 10:27.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're easily concealed.
[10:27.180 --> 10:30.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can just put a wooden shed over your roof and people don't see it.
[10:30.720 --> 10:31.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: But people just don't even care.
[10:32.040 --> 10:32.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're just exposed.
[10:33.040 --> 10:35.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: I saw a picture of rooftops in Iran, and they're all over the place.
[10:36.480 --> 10:41.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: So they're using them to receive channels like BBC and even more so.
[10:41.460 --> 10:46.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a channel called Channel One, which is based out of Los Angeles.
[10:46.240 --> 10:57.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's a group of Iranian expatriates, and it's affiliated with the son of the former Shah of Iran, who doesn't have too many fans over in Iran, but anyway.
[10:59.660 --> 11:06.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this station, Channel One, operates out of a warehouse in Los Angeles, which formerly was used to produce porn films.
[11:07.420 --> 11:13.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: And Channel One is largely thought to be a front fund from the CIA or to receive some funds from the CIA.
[11:13.280 --> 11:20.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: There was actually a bill in Congress last year or a year or two ago to provide funding for Channel One.
[11:20.260 --> 11:21.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, but how is Channel One relevant to this?
[11:21.800 --> 11:22.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is anybody actually taking it seriously?
[11:22.920 --> 11:27.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, a lot of people watch it in Iran, apparently.
[11:27.180 --> 11:46.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: But now they're not being able to watch it because the Iranian government is using some fairly high-powered microwave jamming transmitters, both on towers and on trucks, going around just the major popular areas now in the country, to jam reception of BBC and Channel One and other channels that they don't want people in Iran to view the programming of,
[11:46.540 --> 11:51.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: because they fear that this kind of programming will incite civil unrest and help to topple the current regime.
[11:51.680 --> 11:53.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: But these are really high-powered microwave signals, too.
[11:54.060 --> 11:54.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: These are not healthy.
[11:55.420 --> 12:01.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: These are, you know, hundreds or thousands of watts, which really are not healthy.
[12:02.900 --> 12:05.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: So they're using this to block the signal.
[12:05.700 --> 12:07.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, how is word of this getting out?
[12:08.440 --> 12:10.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: I was worried about the blocking going out?
[12:10.300 --> 12:10.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[12:11.880 --> 12:12.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: There are...
[12:12.680 --> 12:13.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's reporters there...
[12:13.600 --> 12:15.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, again, you have to verify this stuff.
[12:15.500 --> 12:16.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: But this is...
[12:16.200 --> 12:19.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: I was reading this on some technical sites that pertain to...
[12:19.220 --> 12:25.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're just read by, like, radio engineers and people that are involved with this sort of technical stuff.
[12:25.200 --> 12:28.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it really isn't getting much mainstream media coverage.
[12:28.840 --> 12:29.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: But I thought it was fascinating.
[12:29.880 --> 12:36.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's the first case I've heard of where domestic jamming was done.
[12:36.120 --> 12:40.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: In other words, not domestic, but terrestrial jamming, where the transmitter actually located on the ground.
[12:41.060 --> 12:53.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: A lot of times, Cuba was at one time jamming the uplink of this same channel, Channel 1 to Iran, whose behest, I'm not sure.
[12:53.220 --> 12:56.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: But they changed things around, so the U.S.
[12:57.900 --> 13:01.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: satellite TV company changed things around, so that wasn't part of the uplink footprint anymore.
[13:01.800 --> 13:10.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: But this is the first case I've read of where the actual ground-based transmitters were used to jam satellite signals coming down, which is kind of hard to do.
[13:10.140 --> 13:14.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: You have to trade close to the receiver or have a really powerful transmitter, which is what they're doing.
[13:14.280 --> 13:21.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: So I just found this is a really interesting approach to censorship of media, one-way media in Iran.
[13:22.040 --> 13:34.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: As far as verification goes on blocking satellite television and whatnot in Iran, the BBC early on was complaining that their broadcasts were being jammed.
[13:34.520 --> 13:44.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, most likely through the broadcast not going through and them trying to find out where the problem was, they discovered that jamming was actually taking place from within Iran.
[13:45.000 --> 13:49.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, do you have any idea where the technology that they're using to jam it is?
[13:49.240 --> 13:50.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is it like who they bought it from?
[13:50.360 --> 13:51.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is it a European company?
[13:51.640 --> 13:52.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: An American company?
[13:53.020 --> 13:54.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: This kind of stuff is not...
[13:54.780 --> 13:57.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, they really could have bought it anywhere.
[13:57.260 --> 14:04.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: But this isn't really as high-tech a thing as the type of technology that Mike was talking about earlier.
[14:05.380 --> 14:16.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is just simply a high-power microtransmitter that's broadcasting from a tower in a centralized area in a city or on trucks that go around cities.
[14:16.960 --> 14:21.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: They obviously don't have the resources to cover the whole country with these things because they don't have really long range.
[14:21.440 --> 14:23.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: You have to be fairly close to this satellite receiver.
[14:23.260 --> 14:24.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: But this isn't...
[14:24.000 --> 14:26.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's a basically white noise generator and they know what frequency to...
[14:26.640 --> 14:29.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is based on electronic test equipment and RF amplifiers.
[14:29.740 --> 14:30.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is not...
[14:30.740 --> 14:33.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: The equipment doesn't have to be specifically designed for jamming.
[14:33.480 --> 14:35.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a lot of equipment you could get just to cobble this together.
[14:36.380 --> 14:40.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: So it's not like something that you could say, well, they got it from the U.S.
[14:40.500 --> 14:41.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: or they got it from another country.
[14:41.760 --> 14:42.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's just...
[14:42.000 --> 14:46.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is just common microwave transmitting equipment to just be dual-purposed.
[14:46.500 --> 15:01.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, Bernie, we had some discussion on our mailing list about this concerning alternative communication systems that the Iranians might or might not have access to and how important it is for people to develop these kinds of systems.
[15:01.140 --> 15:02.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you want to tell us what that involves?
[15:03.340 --> 15:10.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, at the last HOPE conference last year, myself and Redbird and Skip Berry gave a talk called Off the Grid Radio Communications.
[15:11.100 --> 15:31.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the whole purpose of the talk was to explain to people that we're very, very reliant, almost too reliant on a communications infrastructure that is very easily monitored or shut off or jammed by either corporate or government interests.
[15:32.160 --> 15:34.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: And there are ways around that.
[15:34.960 --> 15:35.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a...
[15:35.960 --> 15:42.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Instead of relying on an infrastructure that's controlled by some large entity, there are two-way radio applications.
[15:43.160 --> 15:52.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Ham radio operators are most commonly known as people who can get communications in areas where everything is shut down, either from a national disaster or something like that.
[15:53.200 --> 15:55.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: Amateur radio is largely illegal in Iran.
[15:55.040 --> 15:57.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's only 15 licensed hams in all of Iran.
[15:57.980 --> 16:03.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they're probably just high-ranking government officials or their friends or children or something like that.
[16:03.180 --> 16:09.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: But that doesn't prevent people from getting equipment to set up communications networks.
[16:09.260 --> 16:14.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: They can set up sort of what are called packet-rated communications, which is set up a burst of data very briefly.
[16:14.320 --> 16:17.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they could set up a grid of these things across the country, whether they've done this or not.
[16:17.920 --> 16:19.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: If they have, they're not talking about it.
[16:19.560 --> 16:21.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if they haven't, they probably should have ahead of time.
[16:21.880 --> 16:32.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: I would imagine there are lots of sort of covert underground communications networks going on in Iran right now using technology that they don't want to talk about because they could be shut down.
[16:32.980 --> 16:47.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: But in any country, including this country, I think it's really important for people to have access to and have it ready ahead of time to provide some sort of communications that wouldn't be possible if their phone lines or Internet connections were shut down.
[16:47.780 --> 16:52.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, any quick tips for those of us who want to communicate after the revolution here?
[16:52.940 --> 16:53.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: I am radio, obviously.
[16:54.480 --> 17:02.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: Chuck, I would pick up a copy of the ARRL Handbook, which is the Bible of two-way radio communications.
[17:03.020 --> 17:13.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you could also look online for technology called packet radio and something called PSK-31, which is a digital communications mode over radio.
[17:13.880 --> 17:15.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's used by amateurs around the world.
[17:15.680 --> 17:21.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's even used by the Cuban government to get their signals, messages to their covert agents in the U.S.
[17:21.600 --> 17:30.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: The ones that were busted a couple, about five years ago in Miami, were using PSK-31 to receive messages via shortwave in the PSK-31 protocol.
[17:30.980 --> 17:35.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, this technology is used by intelligence agencies around the world, too.
[17:35.560 --> 17:37.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: But there's no reason individuals can't make use of it.
[17:38.060 --> 17:52.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: And for a few hundred dollars, even for as low as a couple hundred dollars, you can be part of a network of people who can communicate with each other without relying upon an infrastructure that's controlled by your government or corporations.
[17:52.920 --> 17:55.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bernie, are these systems mobile enough so they wouldn't be caught?
[17:56.860 --> 17:57.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, yes.
[17:57.560 --> 18:02.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you could put a whole kit in a briefcase or a car, something like that.
[18:02.900 --> 18:04.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: But these are data bursts that are not...
[18:04.580 --> 18:10.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's not like, you know, a constant broadcast, like a pirate radio station or a clandestine radio station.
[18:11.220 --> 18:13.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: They can be easily found through direction-finding techniques.
[18:14.200 --> 18:22.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Emmanuel and Mike and I, a few years ago, found a pirate station in Corona, Queens, were trying to find that was inadvertently jamming WUSB.
[18:22.480 --> 18:23.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: But we cracked it down.
[18:23.660 --> 18:24.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: It wasn't that hard to do.
[18:24.560 --> 18:25.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: Obviously, we could do it.
[18:27.360 --> 18:38.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: But bursted digital radio communications, like packet radio, they're just very short bursts of maybe a fraction of a second that aren't, you know, all the time.
[18:39.140 --> 18:41.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's very hard to get a fix on something like that.
[18:41.440 --> 18:45.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: And especially if you're moving a vehicle, there's no way that stuff could be very easily tracked.
[18:47.940 --> 18:52.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you're saying this entire system can be set up in people's trunks and just continually driven around 24 hours a day?
[18:52.860 --> 18:53.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: It could be.
[18:54.040 --> 18:54.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: It could be.
[18:54.880 --> 18:57.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, you'd have to have an antenna on the vehicle, and that might attract attention.
[18:58.220 --> 19:04.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: The antenna would be difficult to conceal, because it has to be, you know, it's about a several feet long kind of thing.
[19:04.200 --> 19:08.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: But it could be... it could still be done in certain kinds of cars, depending on how you hide it.
[19:08.760 --> 19:10.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: But this... I mean, it's just...
[19:10.640 --> 19:14.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: Research packet radio online, you'll find some interesting applications.
[19:14.540 --> 19:24.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: The hams have been using packet radio for many years in emergency drills and in real situations like down in New Orleans during the Katrina disaster.
[19:24.400 --> 19:30.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Packet radio was effectively used to get a lot of communications traffic in and out where nothing else was working.
[19:31.540 --> 19:35.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, we have to move on, but this is a very interesting discussion on the whole Iranian situation.
[19:35.860 --> 19:39.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can write to us, oth@2600.com, if you have anything to add to it.
[19:39.900 --> 19:43.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're going to move into a special part of the program in just a moment.
[19:43.980 --> 19:47.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: First, an update on a story, actually, a story that has just broken.
[19:48.020 --> 19:59.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: You guys remember this company called Fly Clear, where you basically walk through an airport and you don't have to get checked by security too much?
[19:59.520 --> 20:02.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have to get checked equally much, the line's just shorter.
[20:02.240 --> 20:03.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, you just skip to the front of the line.
[20:03.660 --> 20:04.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is that what happens?
[20:04.440 --> 20:04.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[20:04.580 --> 20:05.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: What if there's a whole lot of you, though?
[20:06.320 --> 20:07.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: They'll show shorter lines.
[20:07.740 --> 20:10.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: They don't even let pilots skip the security lines, so...
[20:10.740 --> 20:11.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, okay.
[20:11.240 --> 20:15.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: But in any event, the company is called Clear, and guess what?
[20:15.320 --> 20:16.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're out of business now.
[20:16.340 --> 20:19.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: They were unable to negotiate an agreement with their senior creditor to continue operations.
[20:20.600 --> 20:28.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: And so those of you who paid an annual fee to get this service, well, you're out of luck now because they've shut down.
[20:28.840 --> 20:29.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, what do you think about that?
[20:30.460 --> 20:31.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I think it's kind of amusing.
[20:32.240 --> 20:41.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that are wealthy enough or feel that they're important enough to step in front of the line of everybody else that has to wait in lines at the airport.
[20:41.820 --> 20:47.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was $200 a year, and you had to fork over all kinds of information.
[20:47.040 --> 20:51.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, there's like... I don't have the list in front of me, but maybe somebody else at the studio does.
[20:51.980 --> 21:05.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a list of maybe 15, 20 different pieces of information you had to give up, including, obviously, your date of birth, social security number, home phone number, email address, secondary home phone number and address, all the people in your family,
[21:06.140 --> 21:07.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: just tons of information.
[21:07.280 --> 21:18.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you had to provide all this to this company who apparently would then share it with the TSA and then set up a profile to determine whether you were safe or not, and they'd give you some sort of secure ID so you could pass through.
[21:19.100 --> 21:31.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: But what's interesting is one of these companies, even though they may have a privacy policy to not share this with other companies, if they go out of business, whoever buys that company for pennies on the dollar could use this huge database of...
[21:31.200 --> 21:33.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think there were about a quarter million subscribers they had.
[21:33.200 --> 21:34.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: They were paying $200 a month.
[21:34.140 --> 21:38.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: I bet all those people are very nervous right now about what's going to happen to their private information.
[21:39.620 --> 21:42.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well, we'll be keeping an eye on that story as well.
[21:43.280 --> 21:47.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, and this is something that hit last week, and I thought it was pretty interesting.
[21:47.420 --> 22:01.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Universal Music Group, which is owned by Vivendi and other record labels, were awarded $1.92 million last Thursday in the retrial of a Minnesota woman accused of swapping music over the Kazaa Internet service.
[22:01.300 --> 22:12.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, basically, this case went to trial in 2007, and a jury awarded a total of $222,000 or $9,000 a song.
[22:12.780 --> 22:20.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: The judge threw out the first verdict saying he had given the jury incorrect instructions, and they had a retrial.
[22:20.880 --> 22:21.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: And guess what?
[22:21.840 --> 22:25.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Instead of $222,000, it's now $1.92 million.
[22:25.140 --> 22:35.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: In other words, $80,000 for each of the 24 songs that were posted on the site, so others could download them according to the case.
[22:36.960 --> 22:42.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Jammy Thomas Rassett of Brainerd, Minnesota, is expected to cough up that amount of money.
[22:43.100 --> 22:52.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Joining us, both in the studio, is Attorney Ray Beckerman, and on the phone, Attorney Joe Sibley.
[22:52.760 --> 22:53.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: First, Joe, are you there?
[22:54.620 --> 22:55.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm here.
[22:55.340 --> 22:56.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Glad to be on the show.
[22:56.640 --> 22:58.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks for being with us tonight.
[22:59.920 --> 23:01.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a bit of a shock seeing something like this happen.
[23:01.940 --> 23:03.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: You see a retrial.
[23:03.140 --> 23:09.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: You don't expect the amount to go up by that amount if there's going to be a guilty verdict to start with.
[23:09.080 --> 23:09.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Were you surprised by this?
[23:10.920 --> 23:17.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I wasn't surprised by the guilty verdict, if you will.
[23:18.200 --> 23:20.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't that surprised about the damages amount.
[23:20.880 --> 23:21.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you why.
[23:22.120 --> 23:25.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: The first trial was in a different venue.
[23:25.240 --> 23:25.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was in Duluth.
[23:26.060 --> 23:26.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: This was in Minneapolis.
[23:27.860 --> 23:31.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: We thought that might be favorable for us, and it turned out it wasn't.
[23:31.060 --> 23:37.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: But really, I think the explanation for the increase in damages is, you know, we had Jamie take the stand this time.
[23:37.820 --> 23:40.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: She wasn't interested in a lower damages amount.
[23:40.320 --> 23:49.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: She was interested in zero liability, because to her, a $220,000 verdict is not that much different than a $3.6 million verdict, which would have been the maximum.
[23:49.520 --> 23:50.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: She can't pay either one.
[23:50.820 --> 23:52.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: She was interested in getting off entirely.
[23:53.160 --> 23:56.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the old saying goes, by your words, are you justified?
[23:56.800 --> 23:58.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And by your words, you're condemned.
[23:58.500 --> 24:02.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in this case, the jury chose confirmation instead of justification.
[24:02.800 --> 24:09.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they thought she was lying or wasn't being forthright about her story and decided to become punitive with the award.
[24:09.640 --> 24:18.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, one thing that struck me was a quote by Ms. Thomas Rousset saying, the only thing I can say is good luck trying to get it because you can't get blood out of a turnip.
[24:18.940 --> 24:23.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I got to admire that kind of spirit in the face of something like that.
[24:23.200 --> 24:27.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's hard to get garnishment of wages when you work in an Indian reservation like she does.
[24:28.040 --> 24:36.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the other point there is, you know, as you know, and I'm sure, and I know Ray knows, you know, this wasn't about money for them.
[24:36.440 --> 24:38.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't about collecting any kind of judgment.
[24:38.320 --> 24:40.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: They know they're never going to get money from Jamie.
[24:40.340 --> 24:41.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: This was about sending a message.
[24:41.720 --> 24:58.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was about ringing the siren that, look, if you stand up to us and don't pay us these, you know, what's seemingly a small settlement compared to the multimillion-dollar verdict, but if you don't pay that up front, then, you know, you're staring down the barrel of a nuclear weapon.
[24:59.040 --> 25:07.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: A multimillion-dollar verdict, which is not dischargeable in bankruptcy if there's a finding of willful infringement, which there was in this case, which will basically ruin your life financially forever.
[25:08.260 --> 25:10.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Ray, do you have any feelings on this case?
[25:10.060 --> 25:12.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's not true about the bankruptcy discharge.
[25:12.680 --> 25:20.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: The standard for it being non-dischargeable is much, much higher than the threshold for willful copyright infringement.
[25:20.940 --> 25:32.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, the cases that have reached it have almost invariably found the judgment to be dischargeable, even though there was a finding of willful infringement.
[25:35.120 --> 25:39.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, do you have any... I just want to mention about that issue.
[25:39.840 --> 25:50.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I was shocked by the amount of the verdict, because I can't imagine what malevolence can be in the heart of a juror that could come up with that kind of a number.
[25:50.280 --> 25:56.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's... I look on it as a lot of technical legal problems with the case.
[25:57.040 --> 26:01.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: It should never have been left up to the jury to award more than $750.
[26:02.100 --> 26:13.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: Even the $750 per work infringed would... it would be subject to constitutional challenge, but that wouldn't be a matter for the jury.
[26:14.540 --> 26:17.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's no reason why they should have been instructed that way.
[26:17.480 --> 26:25.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason why they should have been allowed to hear testimony about the record industry's business problems.
[26:27.180 --> 26:43.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: They should not have heard the evidence from MediaCentury or from Doug Jacobson, which, as every technology buff who listens to this show knows, it's all junk science.
[26:43.640 --> 26:46.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's all a secret proprietary information.
[26:47.180 --> 26:52.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: It can't possibly be admitted in the federal court under a normal legal standard.
[26:52.380 --> 26:54.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, it should never have been heard.
[26:54.220 --> 26:59.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we're not legal experts here in the studio, obviously, but how do you prevent something like that from being heard?
[27:00.000 --> 27:00.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: What do you do?
[27:01.100 --> 27:05.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you have to take the depositions, first of all.
[27:06.280 --> 27:12.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to then voir dire them before they're allowed to get before the jury.
[27:12.800 --> 27:13.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: What was that word?
[27:13.460 --> 27:14.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: voir dire.
[27:14.620 --> 27:18.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a V-O-I-R-D-I-R-E.
[27:18.340 --> 27:20.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's legal French.
[27:20.220 --> 27:20.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Aha, okay.
[27:20.940 --> 27:34.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you have to examine the witness about their qualifications and the scientific reliability of the material that they're going to be producing and about their testimony.
[27:34.840 --> 27:38.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you object to their testimony.
[27:38.460 --> 27:40.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: The judge makes a ruling at that point.
[27:40.840 --> 27:45.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're either allowed to testify or they're not, or they're allowed to testify on a limited basis.
[27:46.280 --> 27:58.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I've taken the deposition of Jacobson and he admitted he satisfied none of the normal standards for admissibility of evidence.
[27:58.200 --> 27:58.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: Jacobson is who?
[27:59.240 --> 28:00.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: The expert witness.
[28:00.420 --> 28:00.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[28:00.680 --> 28:01.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: The quote expert, unquote.
[28:02.740 --> 28:09.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: And Media Century has been fighting like the devil to prevent the disclosure of their information.
[28:11.360 --> 28:29.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, if the press accounts that I read of the trial are correct, the Media Century representative perjured himself in the trial because he testified that no one had asked them for the source code and that if anyone had asked them for it, they would turn it over under a suitable confidentiality order.
[28:30.000 --> 28:34.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Joe, is that a correct characterization of what the Media Century guy said?
[28:34.760 --> 28:37.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is a correct characterization of what he said.
[28:37.400 --> 28:37.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[28:37.460 --> 28:58.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can tell you that at this moment, there is pending in the Eastern District of New York a subpoena and a motion to compel production in response to that subpoena, which calls for the source code and which calls for numerous other matters, which all the technology people that I've spoken to tell me,
[28:58.140 --> 29:03.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: this is the necessary information in order to assess the reliability of Media Century's methods.
[29:03.900 --> 29:16.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they have fought like the Dickens to the point that they've also made a motion to withdraw the case now, to run away with their tail between their legs because they're afraid of this being disclosed.
[29:16.980 --> 29:23.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, we had an interesting discussion before the program about precedent and the fact that a jury case is not going to set a precedent.
[29:23.980 --> 29:26.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, well, let me ask Joe first.
[29:26.840 --> 29:29.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Joe, how do you feel this case is significant?
[29:30.740 --> 29:44.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, it's not presidential in the courts, but it is presidential in the court of public opinion, which, like I said before, you know, this is going to scare people into, you know, not wanting to take on the recording industry.
[29:45.520 --> 29:48.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they were already afraid, and now I think they're really going to be afraid.
[29:48.640 --> 30:03.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think in the long run, what this is going to do is it's going to backfire on the recording industry because I think, you know, there's been a lot of outrage about, you know, charging someone or fining someone $80,000 for a song that costs 99 cents on the Internet.
[30:04.060 --> 30:06.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's completely disproportionate to any actual harm.
[30:06.620 --> 30:07.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: We think it's unconstitutional.
[30:08.640 --> 30:16.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: But as far as precedential value goes, you know, I don't really think it goes any further than the fact of this case.
[30:17.660 --> 30:21.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just am curious how they came up with this $1.2 million number.
[30:21.680 --> 30:25.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, you can kill people in this country for less than $1.92 million.
[30:25.320 --> 30:26.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: How do you know that?
[30:26.220 --> 30:28.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It seems completely outrageous.
[30:28.640 --> 30:29.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: How do you know that?
[30:29.120 --> 30:29.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where do you get those figures?
[30:30.980 --> 30:36.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, our position on this, and I don't know what Ray's position on this is.
[30:36.560 --> 30:37.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's similar.
[30:37.660 --> 30:51.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, we don't think that the copyright, the statutory penalties in the copyright code were ever intended to apply with this kind of latitude, $750 or $150,000 to someone who is not infringing for commercial purposes.
[30:51.380 --> 30:58.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would be one thing if she was downloading the music, burning it on the CDs, and selling pirated, you know, discs.
[30:58.440 --> 30:59.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: But that wasn't the case here.
[30:59.720 --> 31:03.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: She was accused of just listening to the music and making it available for others to share.
[31:04.100 --> 31:05.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me speak to that.
[31:06.080 --> 31:22.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a long, outstanding body of copyright law in the courts which have interpreted the statutory damages provision in such a way as to say that the... and the leading scholars, including Nimmer, all say this as well.
[31:22.460 --> 31:29.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: That statutory damage award has to be... has to bear a reasonable relationship to the actual damages.
[31:29.700 --> 31:31.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a long line of cases.
[31:32.100 --> 31:33.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's hundreds of cases on this.
[31:33.620 --> 31:36.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: It goes back 40, 50 years.
[31:36.460 --> 31:39.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: And all of the cases are commercial cases.
[31:39.360 --> 31:42.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: So don't even talk about non-commercial versus commercial.
[31:42.400 --> 31:43.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: They are commercial cases.
[31:43.520 --> 31:59.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the courts have worked out a standard saying that it does not have to be equal to the actual damages, but they have always ruled within a range, almost invariably, of within two to four times the actual damages.
[31:59.780 --> 32:09.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's why there was an article in Wired which got so upset over a decision by Judge Sotomayor, but it was a classic case of a tavern that hadn't paid the ASCAP license.
[32:10.140 --> 32:18.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the magistrate had awarded about one times the actual damages, even though it was a willful infringement.
[32:18.500 --> 32:23.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: And Judge Sotomayor put it up to maybe two and a half times the ratio.
[32:23.520 --> 32:26.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that was perfectly within the standards of the case law.
[32:26.660 --> 32:28.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can't just look at a statute sometimes.
[32:28.760 --> 32:31.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's also a lot of case law saying that.
[32:31.000 --> 32:50.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: So in this case, since the damages were approximately 35 cents for a song, for a work at most, then the damages, the statutory damages should never have been allowed to be anything more than $750 because under the normal standards, it would be around $1.40 would be the maximum.
[32:51.140 --> 32:54.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And just to drive home some perspective here, this is over 24 songs.
[32:54.740 --> 32:56.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's maybe three, three and a half hours of audio.
[32:57.280 --> 33:00.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: In what dimension would that be worth $2 million worth of damage?
[33:00.680 --> 33:04.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they're alleging that she basically, what, had this up on a site and...
[33:05.440 --> 33:05.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: Peer to peer.
[33:06.000 --> 33:06.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Peer to peer.
[33:06.380 --> 33:07.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Peer to peer, okay.
[33:07.280 --> 33:10.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: And she claims no knowledge of any of this happening.
[33:10.800 --> 33:14.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's possible somebody was using her IP address or Wi-Fi or something like that.
[33:14.640 --> 33:22.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: They claim that she downloaded and they claim that she distributed it, but they have no evidence of her downloading it and they had no evidence of her distributing it.
[33:22.840 --> 33:29.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: If someone, if a regular country lawyer like myself had brought the case, it would have been dismissed because there's no evidence.
[33:29.780 --> 33:30.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she owned the CDs, guys.
[33:30.840 --> 33:31.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, say again?
[33:31.580 --> 33:34.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: She owned the CDs that contain these songs.
[33:35.260 --> 33:35.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: So...
[33:35.740 --> 33:37.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she had the CDs, but there's no...
[33:37.780 --> 33:38.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's no...
[33:38.360 --> 33:39.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: So she didn't download the songs.
[33:39.840 --> 33:41.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think she downloaded the songs.
[33:41.260 --> 33:42.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: And there was no evidence...
[33:42.600 --> 33:43.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: No evidence of that.
[33:43.900 --> 33:46.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: And there was no evidence that she had distributed them to anybody.
[33:47.240 --> 33:56.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: A distribution under the Copyright Act requires that there be a sale or other transfer of ownership of the work, or a license...
[33:56.220 --> 33:58.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, a lease, a rental, or a lending.
[33:58.500 --> 34:01.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that there be a dissemination of copies to the public.
[34:01.660 --> 34:01.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead, Joe.
[34:02.380 --> 34:03.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Guys, here's what's really...
[34:03.800 --> 34:09.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you take this argument and these damages to their logical extreme, they accused her of...
[34:09.520 --> 34:11.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there were 24 songs that were sued over.
[34:11.420 --> 34:14.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Those were the plaintiff's copyrighted material that they chose to sue over.
[34:14.580 --> 34:23.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there were actually, allegedly, 1,700 songs in her Kazaa share folder, which they claimed was her Kazaa share folder.
[34:23.820 --> 34:35.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, taken to its logical extreme, if she had been sued for every one of those songs, and if the maximum statutory penalty were put in place, that would be like a quarter of...
[34:35.540 --> 34:37.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a quarter of a billion dollars.
[34:37.340 --> 34:48.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: The thing is, not only was there no evidence of 1,700 song files, there was no evidence of 24 song files, because they only probably downloaded about six or seven of them.
[34:49.040 --> 34:53.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: So those other things were just titles on a screenshot.
[34:54.240 --> 34:56.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: They might or might not have been song files.
[34:56.520 --> 34:57.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: They might have been anything.
[34:57.480 --> 35:03.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: They could have been the corrupted things that Media Century sends out as a method of copyright infringement deterrent.
[35:03.420 --> 35:10.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: But even if they just downloaded one song, the amount of this penalty here is staggering for anybody.
[35:11.240 --> 35:16.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: So how many songs does it take for this to be an important case?
[35:16.520 --> 35:18.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: One song or 50 or 750?
[35:20.120 --> 35:21.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not clear.
[35:21.640 --> 35:23.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you mean by important.
[35:23.180 --> 35:26.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I mean, you're saying that they...
[35:26.000 --> 35:29.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Every case is important where someone is unjustly accused...
[35:29.060 --> 35:29.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[35:29.340 --> 35:30.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: ...of this stupid file sharing.
[35:30.840 --> 35:38.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: Based on bogus evidence, without any evidence that the person did it, under no legal theory that's known to the law, that makes it important.
[35:38.920 --> 35:39.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[35:39.720 --> 35:47.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: But if they're able to prove that she had one song, or five songs, or whatever, because they downloaded the songs and all that, then how is that different than saying...
[35:47.760 --> 35:51.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't prove that she downloaded any songs.
[35:51.580 --> 35:51.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[35:51.800 --> 35:54.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they didn't prove that she distributed any songs.
[35:54.780 --> 35:55.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[35:55.060 --> 36:05.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what they did was they used Media Century to download a selected number of the 24 songs from the Kazaa's share folder she was accused of operating.
[36:05.120 --> 36:18.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And from that, I suppose their theory is the jury could infer that they were made available or, quote-unquote, distributed for copying, you know, the remainder of the songs were as well.
[36:18.660 --> 36:20.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Joe, tell us something about this Media Century.
[36:20.420 --> 36:21.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is that all about?
[36:22.020 --> 36:34.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Media Century is a third-party agency that is used by copyright owners and the recording industry to sort of go out and rove around in these peer-to-peer file-sharing sites.
[36:34.300 --> 36:40.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know exactly what the methodology is as to how they kind of select individuals to, you know, to look at.
[36:41.120 --> 36:47.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's quantity of shared material or what it is, but it's sort of a litigation lottery, in fact.
[36:47.960 --> 37:00.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you get ticked and Media Century, you know, detects file-sharing, then you're sort of logged, your IP address is logged, and then they subpoena records from your Internet service provider and find out who the IP address is registered to.
[37:00.880 --> 37:07.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then the process begins of all this litigation that we've seen, you know, 30-plus thousand people have been sued by the recording industry.
[37:08.080 --> 37:13.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: Emmanuel, the operative word and what Joe just said, the operative phrase is, I don't know.
[37:14.140 --> 37:28.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is a guy who just was involved in a three-day trial in which the only evidence against his client was supposedly scientific technical evidence procured by this investigator, and he doesn't know how they got it.
[37:29.800 --> 37:35.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't that tell you something about how awry this case is?
[37:35.380 --> 37:40.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: You cannot bring a case in federal court based on secret procedures.
[37:40.780 --> 37:42.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is not the Skull and Bones Society.
[37:42.820 --> 37:45.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the Federal Rules of Evidence we're talking about.
[37:45.300 --> 37:46.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the trial lawyer.
[37:46.860 --> 37:50.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if Ray Beckerman says he doesn't know, well, okay, I was sitting in New York blogging about it.
[37:50.840 --> 37:54.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Joe Sibley who was in the trial and he doesn't know.
[37:54.140 --> 38:00.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the expert witness whose opinion was based on that evidence has sworn under oath that he doesn't know.
[38:00.560 --> 38:00.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, Joe.
[38:01.060 --> 38:02.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll give you a chance to respond to that.
[38:03.140 --> 38:03.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[38:03.500 --> 38:07.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, the problem is, we, you know, we jumped on this case, guys, three weeks before trial.
[38:07.920 --> 38:10.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: We kind of had to play the hand we were dealt as discovery went.
[38:11.060 --> 38:18.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with Ray that there are some real issues with Rule 26 of the Federal Rule of Civil Procedure disclosure requirements.
[38:18.680 --> 38:24.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have an expert who's relying on someone else's data, then I think that the full disclosure requirements apply.
[38:24.920 --> 38:33.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I do think Media Century should have been required to produce this allegedly proprietary information so that, you know, we could probe it.
[38:34.000 --> 38:36.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm assuming that that's going to occur in future cases.
[38:37.200 --> 38:38.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like Ray's already on to that.
[38:38.820 --> 38:51.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I agree with him that there really is a hide-the-ball issue going on with Media Century and whoever these other agencies that they use to detect alleged infringers going on.
[38:51.920 --> 38:53.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Joe, tell us what's next in this case.
[38:53.980 --> 38:55.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I assume an appeal is coming.
[38:55.840 --> 39:03.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, you know, we actually had a motion to suppress the evidence procured by Media Century because it was procured in violation of state and federal law.
[39:03.780 --> 39:06.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: We think that the wiretapping statutes apply.
[39:06.180 --> 39:10.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Minnesota private investigator code applies.
[39:11.000 --> 39:12.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: They were unlicensed private investigators.
[39:13.040 --> 39:16.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the real issue is, guys, is constitutionality.
[39:16.540 --> 39:20.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: We think that this award of damages is unconstitutional as applied to this case.
[39:21.080 --> 39:23.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: The statutory scheme is unconstitutional as applied to this case.
[39:24.080 --> 39:26.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: It goes back to what Ray said earlier.
[39:26.140 --> 39:32.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: There has to be some proportionality between the actual harm and the statutory penalty.
[39:32.240 --> 39:34.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in this case, you know, it's not even close.
[39:35.100 --> 39:38.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: I assume both of you guys want to stay around for phone calls from our listeners?
[39:38.840 --> 39:39.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure, of course.
[39:39.360 --> 39:39.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, great.
[39:40.380 --> 39:40.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212...
[39:40.820 --> 39:44.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, 212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[39:45.780 --> 39:47.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, Bernie, yes, you had a comment.
[39:47.760 --> 39:50.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, a quick question for both Ray and Joe.
[39:51.200 --> 39:53.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: The jury selection, I guess that's also called Borgir.
[39:54.840 --> 39:56.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: Joe, what was the...
[39:56.080 --> 40:01.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: How were the potential jury members screened out?
[40:01.700 --> 40:03.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, what did they screen out?
[40:03.660 --> 40:09.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: All the young people or anybody who's ever downloaded music who actually is familiar with the concept involved?
[40:09.640 --> 40:10.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, did they do that?
[40:10.780 --> 40:13.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: And also, a jurisdictional question, did this happen?
[40:13.820 --> 40:20.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: Someone mentioned that the defendant or the person who was sued, she worked on an Indian reservation.
[40:21.080 --> 40:29.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did the alleged file sharing occur actually on an Indian reservation, and were there any jurisdictional issues with that?
[40:29.900 --> 40:32.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's a good question as far as the jurisdictional issues go.
[40:33.260 --> 40:36.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't actually live on the Indian reservation, though.
[40:36.120 --> 40:40.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: She just works for the reservation, so that would go to, you know, their ability to garnish her wages.
[40:41.120 --> 40:48.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: After the Borgir questions, yeah, there was really no pre-screening process that the court used.
[40:48.900 --> 40:59.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the judge did ask some questions that were sort of jointly submitted by the parties that did go to, you know, downloading and understanding of kind of file sharing and things like that.
[41:00.100 --> 41:09.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there were actually three or four jurors, and I think one or two of them actually got on the panel, which is what makes this award of damages even more bizarre and hypocritical, quite honestly.
[41:10.180 --> 41:20.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: There were several jurors who admitted to either, you know, essentially infringing copyright by burning CDs or sharing someone else's music off of an iPod.
[41:21.520 --> 41:23.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: The plaintiffs tried to get them stricken for cause.
[41:23.840 --> 41:28.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, we disagreed with their costs, right, because they said they could follow the judge's instructions.
[41:29.080 --> 41:31.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, whether they could or not was apparently another issue.
[41:32.100 --> 41:48.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we actually got some people on the jury who had, not in so many words, but admitted to copyright infringement and still, still, they entered this award, which is, you know, just astronomically high compared to what was actually done.
[41:48.720 --> 41:49.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's unbelievable.
[41:50.140 --> 41:50.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: I have a question.
[41:51.060 --> 41:57.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm not a constitutional scholar, so I'm actually curious what part of the Constitution kind of applies to this in terms of it being unconstitutional.
[41:57.400 --> 41:59.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't really, I mean...
[41:59.040 --> 42:14.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, because there's a punitive aspect, anytime there's, you know, a punitive aspect, I don't remember which clause of the Constitution or which amendment this falls under, but there has to be some proportionality between punishment and the crime, which is why you can't,
[42:15.060 --> 42:17.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: for example, send someone to death for shoplifting.
[42:17.600 --> 42:30.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that applies as well in punitive damages and the case law on punitive damages, as Ray mentioned, and especially in the context of copyright infringement, there has to be proportionality between the harm and the fine.
[42:30.680 --> 42:37.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: The constitutional argument is the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment.
[42:38.580 --> 42:46.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the United States Supreme Court has held that punitive awards have to be proportion...
[42:46.820 --> 42:52.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: bear a reasonable relationship to the actual damages sustained.
[42:52.320 --> 42:59.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they've held that in the context of statutory damages and in the context of punitive jury awards.
[42:59.520 --> 43:02.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they haven't distinguished between the two in their reasoning.
[43:03.160 --> 43:08.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's the Fifth Amendment that is the argument that actually has a lot of precedent behind it.
[43:08.900 --> 43:29.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: And after the United States Supreme Court's last major discussion of this issue in 2003 in State Farm, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, the District Court in California, the District Court in two other cases have all...
[43:29.480 --> 43:43.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: and law review articles and three law review articles and scholarship have all agreed that those cases are applicable to the statutory damages.
[43:43.480 --> 44:03.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And except for the Second Circuit case, all of these other authorities have specifically spoken to the MP3 files and file sharing, and how the... because these are micropayment transactions, to apply regular statutory damages to those creates a major constitutional issue.
[44:04.300 --> 44:14.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, some people have also raised an Eighth Amendment argument, which is the... saying that it's like putting... it's like a criminal statute.
[44:14.620 --> 44:17.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's an argument that's a more difficult argument to make.
[44:18.080 --> 44:29.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: When you get a $2 million verdict for $23.76 worth of songs, maybe that argument has something to it.
[44:29.340 --> 44:32.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: But the other is a well-established principle, the Fifth Amendment.
[44:33.300 --> 44:37.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're speaking with renowned attorney Ray Beckerman from here in New York City.
[44:37.540 --> 44:39.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: You might know him from the Slashdot community.
[44:39.560 --> 44:44.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's a New York country lawyer, and he also has a Twitter account, Ray Beckerman.
[44:44.140 --> 44:45.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: In case you want to be updated.
[44:46.080 --> 45:01.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we're also speaking with one of the attorneys from a recent case, the case of Jami Thomas-Reset of Minnesota, where she was fined $1.9 million for having shareable music.
[45:02.060 --> 45:04.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Joe Sibley joining us from Minnesota.
[45:05.560 --> 45:06.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: You are in Minnesota, right?
[45:07.160 --> 45:08.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's Houston, actually.
[45:08.220 --> 45:09.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry, you're in Houston.
[45:09.400 --> 45:09.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[45:09.960 --> 45:11.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I knew you were somewhere out there.
[45:11.900 --> 45:14.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[45:14.440 --> 45:21.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you'd like to ask some questions about these cases or any other types of cases for these two people who have quite a bit of knowledge between them.
[45:22.180 --> 45:22.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[45:23.000 --> 45:23.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on Off The Hook.
[45:24.760 --> 45:25.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[45:25.460 --> 45:25.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[45:25.780 --> 45:26.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's on your mind?
[45:27.340 --> 45:27.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[45:27.960 --> 45:33.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm calling in from Dallas, and I was just wondering, are you guys still on the file sharing thing?
[45:33.200 --> 45:36.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're talking about some elements of file sharing.
[45:36.480 --> 45:36.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, go ahead.
[45:37.260 --> 45:40.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, mine actually had very little to do with that.
[45:40.900 --> 45:41.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm on delay.
[45:42.140 --> 45:57.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I was wondering about, recently in Dallas, there has been a former city councilman who was popped an FBI scandal for corruption bribery.
[45:57.100 --> 46:01.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's been in court recently, and the judge put him on a gag order.
[46:02.020 --> 46:09.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: But recently, he's gone to the newspaper and violated that court order pretty thoroughly.
[46:09.160 --> 46:17.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was just wondering, what do you think of politicians being able to do that without so much as any repercussion from the judge?
[46:17.420 --> 46:19.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, we'll answer that question.
[46:19.200 --> 46:22.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, this guy has as little to do as anything we've been talking about tonight as I could imagine.
[46:22.480 --> 46:25.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: But anybody want to address that?
[46:25.200 --> 46:26.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's okay if you don't?
[46:27.140 --> 46:27.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nobody?
[46:27.820 --> 46:31.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know nothing about that case, so I couldn't possibly speak.
[46:31.060 --> 46:32.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead, Joe.
[46:32.600 --> 46:37.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he was listening to a pirated version of Journey Forever Yours when he did it.
[46:38.000 --> 46:38.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[46:38.440 --> 46:38.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe.
[46:38.960 --> 46:39.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who knows?
[46:40.180 --> 46:42.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's try and stay on the subject callers.
[46:42.140 --> 46:49.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's 212-209-2900 talking about the recording industry of America and how they can reach out and possibly get you.
[46:49.340 --> 46:51.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll talk about a couple other cases as well that are also significant.
[46:52.060 --> 46:53.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-209-2900.
[46:54.060 --> 46:54.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[46:54.680 --> 46:55.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on Off The Hook.
[46:55.800 --> 46:56.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[46:56.220 --> 46:56.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you doing?
[46:56.940 --> 46:58.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good afternoon and good evening.
[46:58.680 --> 46:59.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll make this real quick.
[47:00.080 --> 47:05.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: I actually don't do any kind of file sharing or anything like that.
[47:05.320 --> 47:11.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I released my network to the kid upstairs because his parents didn't have much money, but he had a computer.
[47:11.540 --> 47:14.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he downloaded some kind of Harry Potter business.
[47:14.840 --> 47:25.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And what had happened was the cable company, I guess, I'm sorry, a recording studio from California actually called me and told me to cease and desist.
[47:25.680 --> 47:27.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if it happens again, I'm going to be in big trouble.
[47:28.060 --> 47:30.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, somebody like me, it never happened.
[47:30.120 --> 47:31.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't even know what Harry Potter is.
[47:31.920 --> 47:33.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was actually pretty very scary.
[47:34.200 --> 47:36.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: How could you not know what Harry Potter is?
[47:37.140 --> 47:39.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't pay too much attention to that.
[47:39.220 --> 47:39.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[47:39.640 --> 47:41.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's admirable that you don't.
[47:41.680 --> 47:43.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm too busy listening to your show.
[47:43.600 --> 47:44.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have no time for Harry Potter.
[47:44.620 --> 47:45.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, we don't talk about that very much.
[47:45.680 --> 47:46.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's true.
[47:47.180 --> 47:48.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you have a question about this?
[47:50.560 --> 47:50.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[47:51.080 --> 47:54.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can they legally scare me as much as they did?
[47:54.400 --> 47:58.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they talked about taking my car, my house, bank account, houses, et cetera.
[47:59.200 --> 48:01.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought it was like a bullying type of thing.
[48:01.640 --> 48:03.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, can they legally do that?
[48:03.780 --> 48:07.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you should be glad they said cease and desist.
[48:07.280 --> 48:10.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in the old days, that's what copyright lawyers did.
[48:10.400 --> 48:11.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: We said cease and desist.
[48:11.640 --> 48:14.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if someone was willing to cease and desist, everything was cool.
[48:15.620 --> 48:22.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, these maniacs that are running these companies, running them into the ground, they don't even bring...
[48:22.280 --> 48:23.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: They don't even send cease and desist letters.
[48:24.220 --> 48:25.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: They just sue people.
[48:25.760 --> 48:29.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: So you should be grateful that you received the cease and desist.
[48:29.660 --> 48:38.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: You should be careful to consult with a local attorney if you feel there's any question about what you need to do to prevent yourself from committing copyright infringement.
[48:38.160 --> 48:40.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: But I wouldn't look on it as intimidation.
[48:40.180 --> 48:47.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: I would look on... I would be thankful that you ran into people who said cease and desist instead of people who said, here's a summons and complaint.
[48:47.940 --> 48:49.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, since I have you in the room, I might as well ask you this right now.
[48:50.120 --> 48:51.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is it possible?
[48:51.140 --> 48:54.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is it possible, as a lawyer, for you to desist but not to cease?
[48:56.120 --> 48:59.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: No, but lawyers get paid by the word, as you know.
[48:59.180 --> 48:59.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[48:59.420 --> 49:06.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: So when someone realized that cease and desist were synonyms, they figured we could get paid twice as much by saying the same thing twice.
[49:07.120 --> 49:07.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: Fair enough.
[49:07.540 --> 49:07.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Red Hack.
[49:08.220 --> 49:13.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: I know that in the case of the recording industry, they try to sue everybody or do...
[49:13.760 --> 49:17.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, they had a website, and I think they probably still do, to do a settlement online, right?
[49:17.300 --> 49:23.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: But now, does the movie industry and the software industry, do they actually sue people yet or do they...?
[49:23.200 --> 49:26.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because I know that I've received cease and desist letters, actually.
[49:26.620 --> 49:29.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: The movie industry has been playing...
[49:29.040 --> 49:29.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, okay.
[49:30.180 --> 49:30.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sorry, go ahead.
[49:30.640 --> 49:32.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I think you've dug yourself in deep enough, but...
[49:32.460 --> 49:37.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, no, but actually, the most recent one, I didn't actually have anything to do with someone was using our network or a neighbor.
[49:38.220 --> 49:38.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[49:38.800 --> 49:39.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anyway.
[49:39.400 --> 49:40.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, good story.
[49:40.180 --> 49:40.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Stick to that.
[49:41.400 --> 49:50.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: The movie industry and the software industry have been pursuing people just as long as the record industry has, but they haven't used the same tactics.
[49:51.400 --> 49:52.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you want anything to add to that?
[49:53.700 --> 49:54.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, no.
[49:55.100 --> 49:58.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Other than, uh, I like Ray's, uh, bill of suspenders, uh, billing rule.
[49:58.620 --> 49:58.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[49:59.700 --> 50:01.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, let's take another phone call.
[50:01.160 --> 50:03.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-209-2900.
[50:03.460 --> 50:04.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And good evening.
[50:04.240 --> 50:04.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on Off The Hook.
[50:05.000 --> 50:06.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi, it's Sandra.
[50:06.040 --> 50:07.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: My question is somewhat related.
[50:08.080 --> 50:11.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: As an older visual artist, I know about copyright.
[50:11.600 --> 50:19.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: I can't remember the recent history where the music industry has kind of veered off from any kind of fair use.
[50:19.100 --> 50:20.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: So could you talk to that?
[50:20.660 --> 50:21.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's puzzling to me.
[50:22.580 --> 50:23.020]  Well...
[50:23.020 --> 50:23.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'll listen off here.
[50:24.200 --> 50:24.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[50:25.900 --> 50:29.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: The content industry today is like on a maniac tear.
[50:30.300 --> 50:35.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, they are trying to take fair use, uh, out of, you know, out of the, uh, lexicon.
[50:35.680 --> 50:37.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, uh, very scary.
[50:37.820 --> 50:42.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, there, you know, you occasionally see some pushback on it.
[50:42.640 --> 50:50.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but the, uh, I think it, what it all boils down to, I was, I was on a panel discussion with, uh, the spokesman for the Motion Picture Association.
[50:51.240 --> 50:56.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said he likes the fair use law the way it is now, letting it be carved out on a case-by-case basis.
[50:56.760 --> 51:03.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what I said to that was, of course you do, because you represent people who have millions of dollars to spend on litigation.
[51:03.620 --> 51:15.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: But when you have a filmmaker who's got a $3,000 budget, you know, from his, uh, student credit card, and, uh, he, and he, he just wants to know what he can do ahead of time.
[51:15.740 --> 51:21.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't want to wait to find out after a jury comes in and he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars he doesn't have.
[51:22.020 --> 51:28.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, you know, your, your philosophy of having it carved out in court says that people have to live in terror.
[51:28.820 --> 51:31.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the way they want it to be right now.
[51:31.160 --> 51:32.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they bring crazy lawsuits.
[51:32.480 --> 51:38.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, I personally think the Harry Potter case against the Harry Potter lexicon was a crazy case.
[51:38.660 --> 51:40.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I've written on that.
[51:41.060 --> 51:41.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Joe, anything to add?
[51:41.760 --> 51:56.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, actually, it's interesting she raised that issue because, uh, the case that's about to happen in, uh, Boston, the Joel Tenenbaum case, uh, Professor Nessen, uh, which is how I got involved with this, my old law, uh, evidence professor at Harvard,
[51:56.900 --> 51:58.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: he's kind of leading the charge on that.
[51:58.980 --> 52:02.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And fair use is really the central issue in that case.
[52:02.280 --> 52:10.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's, the law is a little unclear as to, you know, what fair use is and what fair use isn't, but they're going to try and make it as broad as possible.
[52:10.500 --> 52:21.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, and, and that's really going to be the defense in that case is that, uh, that Mr. Tenenbaum, you know, regardless of what he did or didn't do, uh, that it was fair for him to, uh, you know, to listen to this content off the Internet.
[52:21.340 --> 52:40.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know that your, your, your firm is assisting on the Tenenbaum case and I hope you will avoid the very simplistic, uh, outlook on fair use that was taken in that panel discussion that, uh, Professor Nessen posted online, uh, because you have to take the different factual scenarios.
[52:40.500 --> 52:55.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Having worked on these cases for four years now and spoken to people from all over the country every day, I know that the peer-to-peer file sharing has many different factual scenarios, different activities that can be done, uh, with peer-to-peer file sharing software,
[52:55.320 --> 53:02.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: some of which would qualify for fair use, some of which would not qualify, and some of which are a gray area.
[53:02.620 --> 53:15.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: And to just, uh, say, peer-to-peer file sharing covered by fair use is an overly simplistic analysis, and so I hope that you'll, uh, work to refine, uh, which different behaviors we're talking about.
[53:15.700 --> 53:29.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Professor Nessen is, uh, is running that case, and, uh, I don't know if, uh, if you know Charlie very well, but, uh, he's one of the smartest people on the planet, so, uh, unfortunately, when Charlie gets an idea, uh, whether it's good or bad, it's almost impossible to talk him out of it,
[53:29.720 --> 53:32.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: so, um, I think we're just gonna ride his train on that one.
[53:32.840 --> 53:33.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[53:33.620 --> 53:45.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, um, I wanted to, uh, take the closing moments of the show to, uh, ask Ray, we were talking before the show about other cases involving, uh, Recording Industry of America, other, uh, significant cases, and how we look at this.
[53:45.720 --> 53:52.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: We look at the damages of $1.9 million, and we say, you know, that's a horrible thing, but they're not necessarily, it's not necessarily all bad news, correct?
[53:52.680 --> 53:52.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[53:53.140 --> 53:59.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, a very important, uh, event just happened the other day in, uh, UMG Recording v.
[53:59.580 --> 54:00.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Roy.
[54:00.020 --> 54:22.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: A New Hampshire case, the defendant was being represented by the Franklin Pierce Law Center, and they obtained an expert opinion from a, a, a, a wonderful, uh, professor at Dartmouth, uh, Sergey Brades, and, and his expert witness report, uh, which referred to the expert witnesses reports that had been obtained,
[54:23.120 --> 54:40.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: uh, from Professor Jacobson, uh, and the expert witness report of Dr. Kim, that had been prepared but was never used in the, uh, Minnesota case, and of Dr. Poels, and the, the, uh, his report scared the RIAA off, and they dropped the case.
[54:40.560 --> 54:45.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they dropped it and got no money and just walked away from it.
[54:45.780 --> 54:55.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, it's very important for defense lawyers all across the country to be doing their homework and, uh, getting expert and technical, uh, witnesses.
[54:56.380 --> 55:08.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this was, I should mention that this was through help from the Free Software Foundation, uh, which, uh, obtained the grant and, uh, uh, encouraged them to hire an expert witness.
[55:08.340 --> 55:14.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: And Dr. Braddus did a wonderful job, and I'm sure he'd be available to help other, uh, witnesses in that region.
[55:14.940 --> 55:15.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[55:16.020 --> 55:26.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, those of you interested in hearing more of Ray Beckerman, you can, uh, listen to the audio or find the video somewhere of, uh, his panel at The Last Hope, RIAAA Litigations, How the Tech Community Can Help.
[55:27.080 --> 55:29.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I want to thank both of you for a fascinating discussion.
[55:30.400 --> 55:34.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, Joe Sibley, uh, what can people do to get involved in this case to show support?
[55:34.660 --> 55:34.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anything?
[55:35.620 --> 55:53.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think what they can do is they can begin to, uh, lobby their, uh, local elected officials to, you know, institute some sort of reform, uh, in the, in the statutory scheme to, you know, uh, have some sort of threshold, uh, that one has to cross before these statutory damages even come into play.
[55:53.320 --> 56:03.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there should be a separate statutory penalty scheme for, you know, situations like this where, you know, someone is merely, you know, using music online for personal use and not for commercial use.
[56:03.880 --> 56:05.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, Ray, any last words from you?
[56:06.040 --> 56:16.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to mention that Dr. Kim, who was the expert witness in Mr. Sibley's case, was also hired with a grant from the Free Software Foundation.
[56:17.340 --> 56:21.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, he wasn't called as a witness at all.
[56:22.640 --> 56:32.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Before the trial, the judge gave an opinion restricting him on what he could testify about, which I don't think was a fair opinion at all.
[56:34.420 --> 56:39.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: But nevertheless, I would have enjoyed hearing what Dr. Kim had to say about Dr. Jacobson.
[56:40.840 --> 56:52.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think what people can really do is make themselves available to work with attorneys in their area if they have the qualifications to be either a tech consultant or an expert witness.
[56:53.100 --> 56:59.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: And people who can afford it to make some kind of contribution to the Free Software Foundation's Expert Witness Defense Fund.
[56:59.680 --> 57:00.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: And how can they do that?
[57:00.440 --> 57:00.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is there a website?
[57:00.860 --> 57:02.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a website, fsf.org.
[57:03.580 --> 57:09.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a button for it on my blog for their page.
[57:09.800 --> 57:18.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: But anybody who listens to this show can go to fsf.org and find the place to contribute to the Anti-RIA Expert Witness Defense Fund.
[57:18.240 --> 57:18.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[57:19.020 --> 57:26.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I want to thank Ray Beckerman and Joe Sibley for joining us tonight and sharing a whole lot of legal knowledge with our listeners.
[57:26.920 --> 57:29.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Our address, oth@2600.com.
[57:29.340 --> 57:30.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's it for Off The Hook this week.
[57:30.860 --> 57:31.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll see you again next week.
[57:31.920 --> 57:32.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good night.