[00:00.000 --> 00:01.060] [SPEAKER_06]: What's up today's program?
[00:01.360 --> 00:02.860] [SPEAKER_06]: This is Free Speech Radio News.
[00:03.040 --> 00:03.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for listening.
[00:03.980 --> 00:05.740] [SPEAKER_06]: In New York, I'm Doran Marina.
[00:09.950 --> 00:13.070] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:13.270 --> 00:14.610] [SPEAKER_01]: The time is 7.01.
[00:14.950 --> 00:16.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Time for Off The Hook.
[00:38.620 --> 00:39.980] [SPEAKER_10]: The rest is back for worse.
[00:40.720 --> 00:42.520] [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood.
[00:42.680 --> 00:43.240] [SPEAKER_10]: One day, no.
[02:04.750 --> 02:06.650] [SPEAKER_01]: And getting heard by the program is Off The Hook.
[02:06.750 --> 02:12.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening with another exciting, action-packed edition of Off The Hook.
[02:12.670 --> 02:14.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:14.890 --> 02:15.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi.
[02:15.490 --> 02:15.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Jim.
[02:16.230 --> 02:16.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[02:16.770 --> 02:17.150] [SPEAKER_01]: RedHackt.
[02:17.310 --> 02:17.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[02:17.990 --> 02:18.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob T. Firefly.
[02:19.070 --> 02:19.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:19.590 --> 02:20.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Dot.ret.
[02:20.270 --> 02:20.550] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[02:20.850 --> 02:21.370] [SPEAKER_01]: R&A.
[02:21.690 --> 02:21.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey.
[02:22.410 --> 02:24.070] [SPEAKER_01]: And down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[02:24.710 --> 02:25.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:25.970 --> 02:26.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[02:26.830 --> 02:31.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, as the fundraiser draws to a close, tonight is, in fact, the last night for us.
[02:32.890 --> 02:34.190] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have some sad news.
[02:34.310 --> 02:36.790] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to be here next week because next week is Bloomsday.
[02:37.110 --> 02:41.970] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when you get to hear Ulysses right over the radio waves every June 16th.
[02:42.190 --> 02:42.950] [SPEAKER_01]: It's thrilling.
[02:43.370 --> 02:43.870] [SPEAKER_01]: It is thrilling.
[02:43.990 --> 02:45.030] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's a WBAI tradition.
[02:45.250 --> 02:47.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm honored to be preempted by it.
[02:47.290 --> 02:49.030] [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, it always seems to happen on a Wednesday.
[02:50.030 --> 02:50.730] [SPEAKER_01]: That can't be.
[02:50.910 --> 02:51.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know.
[02:51.650 --> 02:51.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Look it up.
[02:52.050 --> 02:52.990] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to happen all the time.
[02:53.090 --> 02:54.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Wouldn't it be once every seven years or so?
[02:54.570 --> 02:57.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Point is, this is the fifth straight week of fundraising.
[02:57.470 --> 03:02.190] [SPEAKER_01]: And the first week where we weren't going to be fundraising, we're not going to be on.
[03:02.290 --> 03:04.190] [SPEAKER_01]: But I have good news to make up for the bad news.
[03:04.350 --> 03:12.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is that on July 7th, which is one week and two days before Hope, we have a two-hour show.
[03:12.810 --> 03:16.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to the generosity of the personal computer people, they've yielded their hour to us.
[03:16.590 --> 03:23.370] [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll have a special two-hour event on Off The Hook on July 7th from 8 to 10.
[03:24.010 --> 03:24.390] [SPEAKER_01]: How exciting.
[03:24.410 --> 03:25.190] [SPEAKER_01]: From 7 to 9.
[03:25.290 --> 03:25.590] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[03:26.090 --> 03:27.010] [SPEAKER_01]: You fooled me.
[03:27.130 --> 03:27.650] [SPEAKER_01]: A few years ago.
[03:27.730 --> 03:27.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[03:28.550 --> 03:29.690] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's that.
[03:30.030 --> 03:35.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, as we mentioned, tonight is a fundraising night once more, one last time.
[03:35.690 --> 03:40.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have something really, really, really special this time to give away.
[03:40.650 --> 03:41.210] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, you know what?
[03:41.350 --> 03:42.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we just plunge right into it?
[03:42.670 --> 03:45.230] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we should do that because we have all kinds of other things to talk about tonight.
[03:45.510 --> 03:49.630] [SPEAKER_01]: And we might get involved in a discussion that will just get impassioned and go on for a long time.
[03:49.750 --> 03:55.310] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'd like to introduce people to something that is being released very, very shortly.
[03:56.390 --> 03:57.790] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something brand new.
[03:57.910 --> 03:59.330] [SPEAKER_01]: It's something we have never talked about before.
[04:00.090 --> 04:02.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Does anybody have any inklings to what I'm talking about?
[04:02.850 --> 04:03.250] [SPEAKER_01]: No.
[04:03.490 --> 04:04.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, no?
[04:04.530 --> 04:08.710] [SPEAKER_07]: It better not be the fourth-generation iPhone because I don't want one.
[04:09.150 --> 04:09.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no.
[04:10.110 --> 04:14.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And if it was, I don't think we'd be able to get much of a response from our listeners to that.
[04:15.070 --> 04:19.010] [SPEAKER_01]: But no, it's the new 2600 book.
[04:19.230 --> 04:20.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you heard right.
[04:20.430 --> 04:22.450] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a brand new 2600 book.
[04:22.550 --> 04:25.610] [SPEAKER_01]: It has not yet come out, but it's going to come out very, very soon.
[04:26.070 --> 04:29.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we're offering people tonight for a pledge is $75.
[04:30.590 --> 04:32.950] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an autographed copy of that book.
[04:33.050 --> 04:34.430] [SPEAKER_01]: The book is called Dear Hacker.
[04:34.430 --> 04:35.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Dear Hacker.
[04:35.990 --> 04:42.610] [SPEAKER_01]: And what that is, it's a compilation of the best 2600 letters ever to appear.
[04:42.750 --> 04:50.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, has a tradition of printing letters to the editor in abundance because we get so many letters to the editor.
[04:50.390 --> 04:53.090] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them are really kind of funny and crazy and wacky.
[04:53.890 --> 04:58.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we did for the past few months was basically go through all of them.
[04:58.950 --> 05:01.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, this was almost a year's worth of work.
[05:01.130 --> 05:09.550] [SPEAKER_01]: And Voltaire was involved in this, and all kinds of people read through letters and came up with great ideas for what would work and what wouldn't.
[05:09.630 --> 05:12.210] [SPEAKER_01]: We divided it into several sections.
[05:12.370 --> 05:16.530] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys, you have some drafts of some chapters there.
[05:16.530 --> 05:18.030] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the sections that you have?
[05:20.350 --> 05:22.210] [SPEAKER_01]: It's set in big type at the front.
[05:22.410 --> 05:23.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the title of the chapter.
[05:23.670 --> 05:24.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the chapter.
[05:25.070 --> 05:26.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Tales from the Retail Front.
[05:26.550 --> 05:27.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Tales from the Retail Front.
[05:27.310 --> 05:29.450] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a chapter all about stores.
[05:29.670 --> 05:30.890] [SPEAKER_01]: People write in and saying...
[05:30.890 --> 05:31.850] [SPEAKER_04]: Interaction with stores.
[05:32.090 --> 05:33.670] [SPEAKER_04]: This is what I did at Blockbuster today.
[05:33.790 --> 05:35.790] [SPEAKER_01]: This is what happened at RadioShack when I annoyed the clerk.
[05:35.930 --> 05:40.150] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, basically technical things that people reveal about the retail world.
[05:40.250 --> 05:40.730] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob, what do you have?
[05:40.870 --> 05:42.330] [SPEAKER_06]: I have Our Biggest Fans.
[05:42.670 --> 05:44.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's my favorite section.
[05:44.270 --> 05:46.470] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll explain what that's all about in a little bit.
[05:46.810 --> 05:47.550] [SPEAKER_01]: Dot.ret, what do you have?
[05:47.830 --> 05:48.630] [SPEAKER_09]: Chapter 1.
[05:49.250 --> 05:50.890] [SPEAKER_09]: Question upon question.
[05:51.370 --> 05:51.610] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[05:51.770 --> 05:53.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't give away the chapter numbers.
[05:53.330 --> 05:53.930] [SPEAKER_01]: Just the names.
[05:54.210 --> 05:54.450] [SPEAKER_01]: Fine.
[05:54.550 --> 05:55.470] [SPEAKER_01]: It's chapter 100.
[05:55.710 --> 05:56.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Spoilers.
[05:56.230 --> 05:56.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[05:56.510 --> 05:57.470] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't tell people where they are.
[05:57.470 --> 05:58.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Question upon question.
[05:59.110 --> 06:02.590] [SPEAKER_01]: That is basically people asking us all manner of questions.
[06:02.850 --> 06:04.210] [SPEAKER_01]: And R&A, you have one too.
[06:04.470 --> 06:06.090] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a culture of rebels.
[06:06.450 --> 06:07.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Culture of rebels.
[06:07.490 --> 06:07.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[06:07.690 --> 06:09.210] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not what it sounds like.
[06:10.630 --> 06:11.910] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want people to panic here.
[06:12.490 --> 06:16.050] [SPEAKER_01]: It's rebel with the small lowercase r.
[06:16.210 --> 06:18.590] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a capital R on this thing that I'm seeing.
[06:19.610 --> 06:20.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's because it's a title.
[06:21.290 --> 06:23.170] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's, yeah, that's why it's capital there.
[06:23.250 --> 06:24.570] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not rebel to call her.
[06:25.450 --> 06:27.710] [SPEAKER_01]: You mean he didn't write enough letters into it?
[06:27.710 --> 06:28.330] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there's a letter.
[06:28.650 --> 06:30.290] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if there is a letter from him, actually.
[06:30.650 --> 06:31.390] [SPEAKER_03]: It's intellectual rebels.
[06:31.390 --> 06:35.330] [SPEAKER_01]: If you ever wrote a letter to 2600, there's a good chance that it's contained here.
[06:35.370 --> 06:36.270] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, if it was a good letter.
[06:36.490 --> 06:37.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[06:37.010 --> 06:38.410] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of them are.
[06:38.510 --> 06:38.810] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them are.
[06:38.810 --> 06:39.970] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to read some excerpts.
[06:40.650 --> 06:45.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Ulysses has nothing on us because what we're going to read this Wednesday is going to make history.
[06:45.470 --> 06:48.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we're offering, we're offering two things tonight.
[06:48.750 --> 06:49.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, three things.
[06:49.690 --> 06:50.310] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to count the shirt.
[06:50.410 --> 06:52.770] [SPEAKER_01]: For pledges of 35 and above, you get an Off The Hook t-shirt.
[06:52.890 --> 06:53.790] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we should count that.
[06:53.950 --> 06:54.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah.
[06:54.790 --> 06:59.730] [SPEAKER_01]: And then for a pledge of $75, you get the t-shirt plus the brand-new Dear Hacker book.
[07:00.230 --> 07:03.530] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's about 600 pages or so and hardcover.
[07:03.670 --> 07:04.830] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really pretty cool.
[07:06.950 --> 07:08.570] [SPEAKER_01]: $125, you get all of that.
[07:08.710 --> 07:15.930] [SPEAKER_01]: You get the t-shirt, the Dear Hacker book, and a full archive of Off The Hook episodes from 1988 to the end of 2009.
[07:15.930 --> 07:17.030] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been playing some excerpts.
[07:17.190 --> 07:20.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we'll have time to play an excerpt later on of that huge DVD set.
[07:20.850 --> 07:27.370] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a really good deal, and it would do us well to get some calls on this, our very last night of fundraising.
[07:27.570 --> 07:30.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we've fundraised more on this marathon than ever before.
[07:31.110 --> 07:32.270] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never done five weeks in a row.
[07:32.490 --> 07:44.050] [SPEAKER_01]: So make us look good, folks, by calling 212-209-2950 and pledging whatever you can afford, pledging for those premiums, and getting some really cool stuff.
[07:44.050 --> 07:46.030] [SPEAKER_05]: So this is your second book.
[07:46.170 --> 07:50.090] [SPEAKER_05]: You wrote a book before, which is a collection of the articles, but this is a brand-new book.
[07:50.210 --> 07:51.130] [SPEAKER_01]: I compiled the book.
[07:51.310 --> 07:56.970] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I wrote the intros and the summaries and things like that, and, of course, the letter responses.
[07:57.010 --> 07:59.090] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess in this particular case, I did write a lot of it.
[07:59.910 --> 08:06.230] [SPEAKER_01]: But due credit has to go to all the people in the two books who wrote articles and wrote letters and things like that.
[08:06.230 --> 08:09.370] [SPEAKER_05]: That's an important point, but the point I was making is that this is brand-new.
[08:09.650 --> 08:11.830] [SPEAKER_05]: So if you have the other book, this is not the same book.
[08:11.930 --> 08:12.870] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not the same book.
[08:12.930 --> 08:14.690] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we would not put out the same book twice.
[08:15.750 --> 08:18.890] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is something that people have long asked for.
[08:18.990 --> 08:29.410] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have the best of 2600, which is the book we put out a couple of years ago, you don't have a single letter in that entire 800-and-change page book.
[08:29.610 --> 08:30.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Not one letter made it in there.
[08:30.930 --> 08:31.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are just articles.
[08:31.950 --> 08:35.250] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole other section of the magazine just devoted to letters to the editor.
[08:36.230 --> 08:39.850] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the favorite section of most people who read the magazine.
[08:39.890 --> 08:43.090] [SPEAKER_01]: They love reading the letters because, well, we're going to show why.
[08:43.290 --> 08:44.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob, why don't you start?
[08:44.710 --> 08:45.330] [SPEAKER_01]: You've got...
[08:45.330 --> 08:48.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you've got my favorite section, which is Our Biggest Fans.
[08:48.270 --> 08:54.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I call it Our Favorite Section is because these are people that are angry with us for one reason or another.
[08:55.970 --> 08:57.770] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're spouting forth with venom.
[08:57.950 --> 09:02.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And lots of times it gets very engaging as far as how hostile they are.
[09:02.930 --> 09:03.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we have fun with that.
[09:03.910 --> 09:04.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we try and explain things.
[09:04.990 --> 09:07.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they're completely correct and being angry at us.
[09:07.210 --> 09:09.090] [SPEAKER_01]: We might have done something horrible to them at some point.
[09:10.830 --> 09:13.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Read us a selection from Our Biggest Fans.
[09:13.470 --> 09:13.710] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[09:13.890 --> 09:14.910] [SPEAKER_06]: Here's a neat one.
[09:15.050 --> 09:16.610] [SPEAKER_06]: A nice little sign of the times from 1987.
[09:17.910 --> 09:18.510] [SPEAKER_06]: Here it goes.
[09:18.730 --> 09:26.070] [SPEAKER_06]: Dear 2600, I am convinced that as a result of your mailing 2600 without envelopes, many innocent people will be arrested and charged with crimes that they have not committed.
[09:26.530 --> 09:28.850] [SPEAKER_06]: Your statement that 2600 is not illegal, etc.
[09:29.050 --> 09:33.810] [SPEAKER_06]: is only true on the part of 2600 publishers, but you want to imply that no envelopes will not harm your subscribers.
[09:34.230 --> 09:35.110] [SPEAKER_06]: This is not true.
[09:35.350 --> 09:37.490] [SPEAKER_06]: Let me remind you how the criminal justice system works.
[09:37.650 --> 09:39.250] [SPEAKER_06]: You are innocent until proven guilty.
[09:39.470 --> 09:47.010] [SPEAKER_06]: But even if you are innocent, if some creep suspects that you are not innocent, it could cost you $100,000 to prove in court that you are indeed innocent.
[09:47.410 --> 09:48.570] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's from Newark, New Jersey.
[09:49.150 --> 09:54.710] [SPEAKER_06]: And the response is, we respect your opinion, but why did you have to send us those comments on a postcard so that the whole post office could read it?
[09:55.890 --> 09:56.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[09:57.510 --> 09:59.270] [SPEAKER_01]: That's typical of the kind of thing that would happen.
[10:00.010 --> 10:00.870] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you have?
[10:01.410 --> 10:02.570] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a question, I believe.
[10:02.670 --> 10:04.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Question upon question from that chapter.
[10:07.070 --> 10:08.350] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, this one...
[10:08.350 --> 10:08.890] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, yes.
[10:10.570 --> 10:11.270] [SPEAKER_09]: Here we go.
[10:12.770 --> 10:14.170] [SPEAKER_09]: How is it possible...
[10:14.170 --> 10:14.730] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'm sorry.
[10:14.790 --> 10:15.710] [SPEAKER_09]: Let me back up a second.
[10:15.910 --> 10:17.410] [SPEAKER_09]: This is from 1989.
[10:17.830 --> 10:17.970] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[10:17.970 --> 10:18.670] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, all right.
[10:19.370 --> 10:19.890] [SPEAKER_09]: Now...
[10:19.890 --> 10:21.430] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[10:21.430 --> 10:25.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Call up and get this book, which you'll read a lot faster than .red is reading.
[10:26.210 --> 10:33.850] [SPEAKER_09]: Dear 2600, how is it possible to publish hacking and phreaking information without those authorities changing those systems that you expose?
[10:34.290 --> 10:34.590] [SPEAKER_11]: Ooh.
[10:34.950 --> 10:35.210] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[10:35.410 --> 10:39.610] [SPEAKER_01]: So people were concerned about us exposing systems.
[10:39.730 --> 10:40.930] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's a valid concern.
[10:41.090 --> 10:41.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Did we answer that?
[10:41.850 --> 10:42.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, we did.
[10:42.770 --> 10:43.170] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the answer?
[10:43.350 --> 10:46.030] [SPEAKER_09]: The answer was a good question.
[10:46.030 --> 10:48.430] [SPEAKER_09]: Sometimes systems are changed.
[10:48.590 --> 10:53.050] [SPEAKER_09]: Sometimes systems are not, you know...
[10:53.050 --> 10:55.870] [SPEAKER_09]: But we...
[10:55.870 --> 10:56.590] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, sorry.
[10:56.950 --> 10:59.870] [SPEAKER_09]: But we get out...
[11:01.210 --> 11:02.770] [SPEAKER_09]: Did you forget how to read?
[11:04.010 --> 11:05.970] [SPEAKER_09]: I forgot how to read for a second.
[11:05.970 --> 11:06.490] [SPEAKER_09]: I am sorry.
[11:06.490 --> 11:09.370] [SPEAKER_09]: But we get out of it...
[11:10.510 --> 11:11.090] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry.
[11:11.230 --> 11:12.610] [SPEAKER_09]: What we get out of it is knowledge.
[11:13.970 --> 11:14.450] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[11:14.610 --> 11:16.650] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you know, I think you need to get some more knowledge out of it.
[11:16.810 --> 11:19.790] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's an invaluable tool, which leads us to figuring out more about them.
[11:19.990 --> 11:26.190] [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, knowledge for information are always advantageous and should never be styled.
[11:26.250 --> 11:30.950] [SPEAKER_01]: As you can see, this book has a tremendous effect on people and makes them totally forget their senses sometimes.
[11:31.130 --> 11:32.670] [SPEAKER_05]: I imagine it's beautifully typeset.
[11:32.710 --> 11:34.550] [SPEAKER_05]: You can read it no problem once you get a copy.
[11:34.550 --> 11:35.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Usually, usually.
[11:35.490 --> 11:36.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Redhack, what do you have?
[11:37.250 --> 11:39.990] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually have a letter from 1995.
[11:40.230 --> 11:41.070] [SPEAKER_04]: What section do you have?
[11:41.070 --> 11:41.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[11:41.590 --> 11:43.390] [SPEAKER_04]: I have the Tales from the Retail.
[11:43.670 --> 11:44.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Tales from Retail.
[11:44.370 --> 11:44.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[11:44.690 --> 11:45.530] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a good section, too.
[11:45.810 --> 11:50.050] [SPEAKER_04]: And I have a letter from 1995, which is basically talking about...
[11:50.530 --> 11:51.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'll just read it, I guess.
[11:52.090 --> 11:53.130] [SPEAKER_01]: We have two calls on the line, by the way.
[11:53.190 --> 11:53.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Join those two calls.
[11:54.010 --> 11:55.310] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[11:55.310 --> 11:56.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Get a copy of this book.
[11:56.430 --> 11:57.310] [SPEAKER_01]: $75 pledge.
[11:57.470 --> 11:59.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Or $125 for the audio archive as well.
[12:00.530 --> 12:06.030] [SPEAKER_04]: It says, I was in RadioShack the other day and bought a 43141 modem pocket tone dialer.
[12:06.190 --> 12:08.730] [SPEAKER_04]: It was the last one they had and they had it on sale for $7.
[12:09.190 --> 12:13.190] [SPEAKER_04]: The next day, I came in and tried to buy a 6.5536 MHz crystal.
[12:13.370 --> 12:13.650] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-oh.
[12:14.110 --> 12:17.930] [SPEAKER_04]: The guy looked on my account on the computer and saw that I'd purchased the pocket dialer.
[12:18.110 --> 12:21.690] [SPEAKER_04]: He asked what I needed the crystal for and I told him that my dad needed it for a scanner.
[12:22.090 --> 12:29.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Then I saw a sign on the service desk that had a picture of the RadioShack president and it said that they only wanted your phone number and address for sending out catalogs.
[12:29.150 --> 12:32.110] [SPEAKER_04]: I asked the guy about it and he said that he couldn't sell me the crystal.
[12:32.850 --> 12:34.410] [SPEAKER_04]: So the sign is just crap, I said.
[12:34.510 --> 12:38.270] [SPEAKER_04]: And he said that they also keep records to monitor possible illegal activities.
[12:39.150 --> 12:39.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[12:39.910 --> 12:41.810] [SPEAKER_04]: So, I was...
[12:41.810 --> 12:51.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, I was wondering if I might possibly have a case of false advertising or something if I get the guy's voice on tape telling me that when the sign says they want your info...
[12:51.010 --> 12:51.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, sorry.
[12:51.870 --> 12:54.810] [SPEAKER_04]: Telling me that when the sign says that they just want your info for the catalog.
[12:55.450 --> 12:55.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[12:55.830 --> 12:59.530] [SPEAKER_01]: and now this harkens back to the old Redbox days.
[12:59.810 --> 13:04.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so basically he was trying to build, you know, take the pocket dollar and the crystal and combine them to...
[13:04.490 --> 13:05.210] [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, you're assuming.
[13:05.450 --> 13:08.270] [SPEAKER_01]: You're making the same mistake the RadioShack employee was making.
[13:08.470 --> 13:16.450] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's interesting because he's pointing out that RadioShack, even though they say they just want to send you the catalog, they're actually tracking your purchases like most chains do nowadays.
[13:16.670 --> 13:20.970] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, when you go and use that little, you know, rewards card at any chain.
[13:21.010 --> 13:21.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, yeah.
[13:21.550 --> 13:22.570] [SPEAKER_04]: They're tracking your purchases.
[13:22.730 --> 13:24.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And people don't seem to mind anymore.
[13:24.090 --> 13:25.150] [SPEAKER_04]: They're not just giving you discounts.
[13:25.150 --> 13:25.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, back then.
[13:25.930 --> 13:26.650] [SPEAKER_01]: What year was this again?
[13:26.790 --> 13:27.130] [SPEAKER_01]: 1995.
[13:27.550 --> 13:29.090] [SPEAKER_01]: People were kind of shocked by that.
[13:29.210 --> 13:31.070] [SPEAKER_01]: But the crystal was used.
[13:31.650 --> 13:41.710] [SPEAKER_01]: You basically inserted it into the RadioShack dialer and you had a device that made the five little beeps and those five little beeps told a payphone that you would put a quarter in.
[13:41.770 --> 13:46.850] [SPEAKER_01]: It was so simple and that is how the entire phone system of this country was crippled for many, many years.
[13:46.990 --> 13:48.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Or a payphone system, that is.
[13:48.950 --> 13:52.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And RadioShack, of course, we revealed the information in 2600 Magazine.
[13:52.850 --> 13:54.150] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it might have been in a letter.
[13:54.450 --> 13:55.330] [SPEAKER_01]: No, actually, it was an article.
[13:55.490 --> 13:57.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone wrote an article about it, but we talked about it many times in letters.
[13:58.590 --> 14:07.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that resulted in quite a few changes in the entire system to go back to that other letter that asked are systems changed when things are revealed.
[14:07.590 --> 14:08.990] [SPEAKER_04]: That had to be like a hardware change, right?
[14:08.990 --> 14:11.050] [SPEAKER_04]: because they had to mute because they had to mute the handset on the payphone side.
[14:11.050 --> 14:12.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they had to do all that.
[14:12.430 --> 14:15.150] [SPEAKER_01]: They had to install this new software called Mars, I believe.
[14:15.470 --> 14:17.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And now payphones don't use those tones anymore.
[14:17.950 --> 14:19.370] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was that easy.
[14:19.450 --> 14:22.210] [SPEAKER_01]: All you had to do was beep five times and that told the system.
[14:22.350 --> 14:23.230] [SPEAKER_01]: It worked for a long time, though.
[14:23.230 --> 14:23.270] [SPEAKER_01]: It did.
[14:23.270 --> 14:25.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I remember in the early 2000s, I was able to use that.
[14:25.830 --> 14:27.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Every payphone had to be replaced.
[14:27.510 --> 14:29.190] [SPEAKER_01]: No, of course not.
[14:29.230 --> 14:30.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Every single payphone had to be replaced, though.
[14:30.830 --> 14:35.890] [SPEAKER_01]: People were using Hallmark greeting cards and recording red box tones onto them and holding them up to payphones.
[14:36.010 --> 14:37.790] [SPEAKER_01]: It was that easy to fool them.
[14:38.310 --> 14:43.950] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, it's just funny to go back into even the 90s and see how different things were then.
[14:44.150 --> 14:52.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we only are reading letters from the first 10 or so years because I only printed out the first 10 pages of various chapters.
[14:52.310 --> 14:57.270] [SPEAKER_01]: But this goes from 1984, our first year, all the way up to last year, I believe.
[14:57.990 --> 14:59.370] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's all part of this book.
[14:59.570 --> 15:02.570] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you issued the first issue of 2600.
[15:02.690 --> 15:04.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Did that have letters in it already?
[15:04.690 --> 15:05.390] [SPEAKER_04]: How would that have letters in it?
[15:05.390 --> 15:05.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[15:05.590 --> 15:06.050] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just asking.
[15:06.150 --> 15:07.410] [SPEAKER_04]: So, when did they start?
[15:08.230 --> 15:09.390] [SPEAKER_01]: A few issues after that.
[15:09.470 --> 15:11.510] [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe three issues after that, we got our first letter.
[15:11.750 --> 15:13.150] [SPEAKER_01]: We printed our first letter anyway.
[15:14.050 --> 15:15.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just got bigger and bigger.
[15:16.130 --> 15:20.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason it got bigger and bigger is because in the hacker world, people love to go back and forth.
[15:20.870 --> 15:25.870] [SPEAKER_01]: They love to have dialogue and exchanges and trade information and get feedback to the information they just traded.
[15:25.870 --> 15:30.110] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, the 2600 letter section became the forum for this.
[15:30.270 --> 15:35.710] [SPEAKER_01]: It was actually, I think, the first real hacker forum and certainly in print.
[15:35.930 --> 15:37.250] [SPEAKER_01]: It might be the only one in print.
[15:37.770 --> 15:39.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just became extremely popular.
[15:39.850 --> 15:44.950] [SPEAKER_01]: And to this day, we get hundreds of letters for every single issue we put out.
[15:45.050 --> 15:48.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have to pick and choose because there are so many.
[15:48.050 --> 15:50.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess we could put out a book of all the ones that didn't make it.
[15:50.830 --> 15:52.550] [SPEAKER_01]: But these are the ones that did that we think are the best.
[15:52.790 --> 15:53.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's all yours.
[15:54.730 --> 15:56.810] [SPEAKER_01]: This brand new book which is about to come out.
[15:57.510 --> 15:58.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Autographed copy.
[15:58.430 --> 16:00.390] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[16:00.410 --> 16:01.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Pledge of $75.
[16:01.470 --> 16:01.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Get you that.
[16:02.050 --> 16:03.750] [SPEAKER_01]: And the Off The Hook t-shirt.
[16:03.830 --> 16:14.530] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want the Off The Hook audio archive on top of that which is about 20 DVDs filled with audio from our first show back in 1988 to our last one at the end of 2009.
[16:15.170 --> 16:15.810] [SPEAKER_01]: Pledge 125.
[16:16.050 --> 16:16.750] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll get that.
[16:16.750 --> 16:17.530] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll get the book.
[16:17.770 --> 16:18.470] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll get the t-shirt.
[16:18.710 --> 16:20.370] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[16:20.410 --> 16:21.130] [SPEAKER_01]: And the radio station.
[16:21.210 --> 16:22.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And the radio station.
[16:22.150 --> 16:22.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[16:22.470 --> 16:23.350] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really the premium.
[16:23.570 --> 16:23.950] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[16:24.430 --> 16:24.570] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[16:24.630 --> 16:27.090] [SPEAKER_01]: RNA, you have one to read in that too.
[16:27.130 --> 16:28.550] [SPEAKER_00]: I have from A Culture of Rebels.
[16:28.770 --> 16:29.530] [SPEAKER_00]: Culture of Rebels.
[16:29.610 --> 16:29.870] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[16:30.050 --> 16:30.250] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[16:30.250 --> 16:31.250] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the scary chapter.
[16:31.370 --> 16:31.650] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[16:32.350 --> 16:35.650] [SPEAKER_00]: The writer starts out by saying the following is a true story.
[16:36.150 --> 16:39.930] [SPEAKER_00]: And oh yeah it's 0401-85 so 1985.
[16:40.490 --> 16:40.670] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[16:41.230 --> 16:42.110] [SPEAKER_00]: The phone rang.
[16:42.470 --> 16:44.270] [SPEAKER_00]: I got up and looked at the desk clock.
[16:44.570 --> 16:45.810] [SPEAKER_00]: It was 6.08 a.m.
[16:45.810 --> 16:47.190] [SPEAKER_00]: an hour before I go to school.
[16:47.430 --> 16:48.810] [SPEAKER_00]: I picked the receiver up.
[16:48.930 --> 16:49.850] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this John McKee?
[16:50.010 --> 16:50.990] [SPEAKER_00]: Asked the caller urgently.
[16:51.470 --> 16:51.670] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[16:51.750 --> 16:52.830] [SPEAKER_00]: I replied half asleep.
[16:53.110 --> 16:55.810] [SPEAKER_00]: You better get rid of your printouts and your stuff on discs.
[16:56.010 --> 16:58.350] [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna get a visit within the next 20 minutes.
[16:58.350 --> 16:59.770] [SPEAKER_00]: The kid said he hung up.
[17:00.210 --> 17:01.270] [SPEAKER_00]: I got nervous.
[17:01.690 --> 17:02.690] [SPEAKER_00]: The phone rang again.
[17:02.850 --> 17:03.650] [SPEAKER_00]: John, this is Jim.
[17:03.890 --> 17:07.870] [SPEAKER_00]: Greg just got busted and his brother's been calling all of his friends on a sheet that Greg had.
[17:07.990 --> 17:08.650] [SPEAKER_00]: Did he call you?
[17:09.050 --> 17:09.750] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he did.
[17:09.830 --> 17:10.190] [SPEAKER_00]: I said.
[17:10.350 --> 17:13.210] [SPEAKER_00]: You better believe it because you're gonna get nailed with the rest of us.
[17:13.570 --> 17:14.510] [SPEAKER_00]: Get rid of everything.
[17:14.710 --> 17:15.070] [SPEAKER_00]: Burn it.
[17:15.270 --> 17:17.910] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought to myself, what did I do to make them want me?
[17:18.050 --> 17:18.450] [SPEAKER_00]: Codes?
[17:18.890 --> 17:19.550] [SPEAKER_00]: No time.
[17:19.690 --> 17:22.270] [SPEAKER_00]: Have to burn everything pertaining to illegal wrongdoings.
[17:22.430 --> 17:23.770] [SPEAKER_00]: I was panic stricken.
[17:24.150 --> 17:24.950] [SPEAKER_00]: I put it...
[17:24.950 --> 17:27.030] [SPEAKER_00]: I got it all together and went outside and burned it.
[17:27.210 --> 17:28.570] [SPEAKER_00]: Discs, printouts, everything.
[17:28.890 --> 17:32.150] [SPEAKER_00]: As I was returning to my house, I wondered if they had a tap on my line.
[17:32.410 --> 17:33.590] [SPEAKER_00]: The phone rang again.
[17:33.750 --> 17:35.030] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh no, who is it now?
[17:35.030 --> 17:38.310] [SPEAKER_00]: I went in and answered it only to be told, April Fool's.
[17:38.310 --> 17:38.950] [SPEAKER_00]: Click.
[17:39.390 --> 17:39.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[17:40.970 --> 17:41.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[17:41.850 --> 17:45.450] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing is, back then, that kind of thing happened all the time.
[17:45.630 --> 17:46.830] [SPEAKER_01]: People were always getting raided.
[17:46.970 --> 17:52.630] [SPEAKER_01]: The feds were coming to people's homes, kicking in doors and taking floppies and printouts and things like that and computers and phones.
[17:52.670 --> 17:53.510] [SPEAKER_03]: Crazy time.
[17:53.710 --> 17:57.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody, every teenage kid who was involved with computers lived in fear of that happening to them.
[17:57.650 --> 18:01.630] [SPEAKER_01]: So this was not something that was that surprising to get a phone call like that.
[18:02.330 --> 18:07.130] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's part of the memories that you'll get to read about if you pledge for this book.
[18:08.310 --> 18:09.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, do your magic.
[18:09.250 --> 18:10.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Get some calls coming in.
[18:10.770 --> 18:13.630] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that brings back lots of memories, Emmanuel.
[18:13.930 --> 18:15.350] [SPEAKER_08]: And I've got a question for you.
[18:15.410 --> 18:17.030] [SPEAKER_08]: About how many pages is this new book?
[18:17.410 --> 18:19.250] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about 600, I believe.
[18:19.430 --> 18:20.150] [SPEAKER_01]: 600 and change.
[18:20.930 --> 18:24.210] [SPEAKER_08]: 600-some pages of letters to 2,600...
[18:24.210 --> 18:30.250] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's really great material reading back these letters because, well, first of all, the responses...
[18:30.250 --> 18:32.810] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the letters themselves and often the responses are pretty humorous.
[18:32.930 --> 18:43.050] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's sort of like a time machine going back and giving the perspective of decades of what's been going on in the hacker community.
[18:43.210 --> 18:44.750] [SPEAKER_08]: Kind of like this radio show does, too.
[18:45.290 --> 18:49.230] [SPEAKER_08]: which is why we're providing the archives tonight of all the 26...
[18:49.230 --> 18:52.450] [SPEAKER_08]: all the episodes of About the Hook going back to 19...
[18:52.450 --> 18:53.110] [SPEAKER_08]: what, 88?
[18:53.370 --> 18:54.130] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, yes.
[18:54.570 --> 18:55.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Our first show.
[18:55.130 --> 18:55.250] [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.
[18:55.550 --> 18:58.470] [SPEAKER_08]: So, I encourage our listeners to get their...
[18:58.470 --> 19:03.770] [SPEAKER_08]: get their historical perspective by calling 212-209-2950.
[19:04.550 --> 19:08.970] [SPEAKER_08]: For a mere $35 you get the newly designed Off The Hook t-shirt by Rob T.
[19:09.070 --> 19:11.950] [SPEAKER_08]: Firefly, which is a very cool telephonic design.
[19:12.290 --> 19:20.950] [SPEAKER_08]: But for a $75 pledge you get that shirt and this book we've been talking about, 600-some pages of stimulating letters and responses.
[19:21.250 --> 19:28.950] [SPEAKER_08]: For $125 you get both the book and the shirt and all the Off The Hook episodes going back to 1988.
[19:28.950 --> 19:39.490] [SPEAKER_08]: It's really an amazing package, but the biggest package is WBAI, which is probably the only radio station in the country or the world that would provide you with a radio show about this kind of stuff.
[19:39.590 --> 19:47.450] [SPEAKER_08]: So please, call 212-209-2950 and support this kind of broadcast, which you're not going to hear anywhere else.
[19:47.590 --> 19:49.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we know that you're worn out.
[19:49.930 --> 19:50.850] [SPEAKER_01]: We're worn out as well.
[19:51.050 --> 19:51.830] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been doing this now.
[19:51.950 --> 19:52.990] [SPEAKER_01]: It's our fifth week fundraising.
[19:52.990 --> 19:54.390] [SPEAKER_01]: It's our last week fundraising.
[19:54.990 --> 20:01.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we were on for five weeks because we've done well in the past and we need to keep that tradition up.
[20:01.910 --> 20:12.870] [SPEAKER_01]: The important thing is that the radio station be here for future generations to converse and trade information just like the 2600 letters have done over the last few decades.
[20:13.190 --> 20:15.010] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[20:15.010 --> 20:20.490] [SPEAKER_01]: We're still looking for our first call in this particular batch and so far it has not come in.
[20:20.610 --> 20:22.710] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[20:22.890 --> 20:26.450] [SPEAKER_01]: I should point out this book is only being offered for this hour.
[20:26.550 --> 20:32.670] [SPEAKER_01]: We have not offered it before and as this is the last fundraising day that we're going to be doing, we're not going to offer it again.
[20:32.850 --> 20:42.410] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is your chance to get an autographed copy of Dear Hacker, the brand new book about 2600 letters and dialogue of the hacker community.
[20:42.570 --> 20:49.710] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to see what hackers were saying, this is the next best thing for logging on to a BBS which you can't do anymore.
[20:49.990 --> 20:50.610] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not around.
[20:51.650 --> 20:54.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Except maybe Jason Scott has some in his collection.
[20:54.770 --> 20:58.810] [SPEAKER_01]: But other than that, it's very hard to access this.
[20:58.990 --> 21:02.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is making it accessible to everybody.
[21:02.970 --> 21:15.270] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and it's worth noting that it may seem strange to some people today, but for those of us who were around back then, the letters page of a magazine is how that community conversed back and forth in really slow conversations going from issue to issue.
[21:15.430 --> 21:15.610] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[21:15.850 --> 21:18.130] [SPEAKER_06]: And this was before the widespread use of the Internet.
[21:18.130 --> 21:20.150] [SPEAKER_06]: Not even all the computer geeks had computers yet.
[21:20.550 --> 21:26.030] [SPEAKER_06]: And this was sometimes the only way that you could get these sort of ideas and questions answered.
[21:26.210 --> 21:28.430] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's really something.
[21:28.610 --> 21:33.150] [SPEAKER_06]: And strangely enough, it's somehow still going on today in the letters page of the magazine.
[21:33.150 --> 21:33.530] [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[21:33.610 --> 21:34.130] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a tradition.
[21:34.330 --> 21:35.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have four calls on the line.
[21:35.570 --> 21:39.230] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great to see because that tells me that people care and that it does matter to them.
[21:39.690 --> 21:42.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And I get the same feeling every time I read the letters.
[21:42.590 --> 21:43.650] [SPEAKER_01]: It tells me that people are out there.
[21:43.710 --> 21:44.030] [SPEAKER_01]: They care.
[21:44.110 --> 21:44.850] [SPEAKER_01]: They have something to say.
[21:45.330 --> 21:49.550] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're there to listen, to respond, to be part of the dialogue.
[21:49.770 --> 21:58.210] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's the amazing thing about both the magazine and the radio station have always been is just the ability for people to go back and forth and be heard.
[21:58.830 --> 22:04.270] [SPEAKER_01]: So many people have had their first letter ever that they've written to anything published in 2600.
[22:04.570 --> 22:05.210] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a...
[22:05.210 --> 22:07.290] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if everyone here has had something published someplace.
[22:07.450 --> 22:10.170] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an amazing feeling to actually see your words in print.
[22:10.630 --> 22:15.530] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know we've made a lot of people very happy just by printing what they say.
[22:15.650 --> 22:20.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, if we have a particularly witty retort to them, that makes them even happier, maybe even angrier.
[22:21.070 --> 22:21.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[22:21.930 --> 22:24.110] [SPEAKER_01]: But the important thing is it's history.
[22:24.110 --> 22:24.710] [SPEAKER_01]: It's there.
[22:24.830 --> 22:26.670] [SPEAKER_01]: It's there forever as part of this book.
[22:26.770 --> 22:28.290] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[22:28.570 --> 22:38.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, a pledge of $75 gets you the book, autographed copy of Dear Hacker, the collection of 2600 letters, along with the Off The Hook t-shirt in the size of your choice.
[22:38.690 --> 22:45.110] [SPEAKER_01]: A pledge of $125 gets you all of that, plus a full archive of Off The Hook from 1988 to the end of 2009.
[22:45.450 --> 22:45.930] [SPEAKER_01]: That's...
[22:46.750 --> 22:48.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike, is it thousands of hours?
[22:48.470 --> 22:48.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it...
[22:48.950 --> 22:51.810] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so many hours that you don't even need to know how many.
[22:51.950 --> 22:52.690] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of hours.
[22:52.850 --> 22:53.290] [SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
[22:54.510 --> 22:56.090] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[22:56.390 --> 22:57.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Join the four callers on the line.
[22:57.710 --> 23:00.970] [SPEAKER_01]: I saw our fifth caller just came in, but it's possible the phone wasn't picked up in time.
[23:01.170 --> 23:03.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's the case, just call right back because it will be.
[23:03.930 --> 23:05.630] [SPEAKER_01]: There's people there that definitely want to pick up the phone.
[23:06.270 --> 23:07.830] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[23:08.330 --> 23:09.470] [SPEAKER_01]: That is our phone number.
[23:09.870 --> 23:13.190] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say if we get one more call, we'll go to our big story of the night.
[23:13.290 --> 23:14.150] [SPEAKER_01]: And it is a pretty big story.
[23:14.230 --> 23:16.770] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to devote some time to it since we won't be here next week.
[23:17.090 --> 23:17.550] [SPEAKER_01]: All right?
[23:18.590 --> 23:20.990] [SPEAKER_05]: Who's the most famous letter author in the book?
[23:21.090 --> 23:22.710] [SPEAKER_01]: The most famous letter author in the book.
[23:22.830 --> 23:25.150] [SPEAKER_05]: There must be someone who went on to become famous.
[23:25.330 --> 23:26.750] [SPEAKER_01]: I know Cory Doctorow wrote...
[23:26.750 --> 23:27.710] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he wrote an article.
[23:28.070 --> 23:28.470] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what?
[23:28.490 --> 23:30.050] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what issue that's in.
[23:30.290 --> 23:32.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not sure if that even was in the best of 2600.
[23:33.730 --> 23:37.410] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm sure there are other famous people that have written in without revealing who they are.
[23:37.470 --> 23:40.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're famous, you're not going to say, oh, by the way, this is Brad Pitt.
[23:41.570 --> 23:42.630] [SPEAKER_05]: People sign letters.
[23:43.010 --> 23:46.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but do they sign letters to 2600 other than with a handle or something?
[23:46.810 --> 23:47.390] [SPEAKER_05]: They might.
[23:47.490 --> 23:47.970] [SPEAKER_05]: I guess not.
[23:48.230 --> 23:51.030] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he might have been, you know, Snow Monster of the North or something.
[23:51.150 --> 23:51.950] [SPEAKER_01]: That could have been his handle.
[23:53.230 --> 23:54.450] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you just out Brad Pitt?
[23:54.650 --> 23:55.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, no.
[23:55.230 --> 23:56.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Not knowingly, anyway.
[23:57.490 --> 24:00.250] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as I know, Angelina didn't write us any letters, I don't think.
[24:01.110 --> 24:02.150] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[24:02.210 --> 24:04.050] [SPEAKER_01]: We have six calls on the line, so that's great to see.
[24:04.330 --> 24:05.250] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209...
[24:05.250 --> 24:05.830] [SPEAKER_01]: No, make that seven.
[24:05.930 --> 24:07.370] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[24:07.750 --> 24:10.310] [SPEAKER_01]: This book is going to fly off the shelves when it does come out.
[24:10.310 --> 24:13.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll be one of the first people to actually have your own autographed copy of it.
[24:13.850 --> 24:14.850] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really going to be pretty cool.
[24:14.910 --> 24:15.290] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[24:15.790 --> 24:18.930] [SPEAKER_08]: I just wanted to say, I always find it amusing when people write in.
[24:19.150 --> 24:32.150] [SPEAKER_08]: They use just interesting nicknames or handles, like you just mentioned, because they're really afraid that just the publication of their name along with their question could get them in hot water.
[24:32.290 --> 24:37.070] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the type of questions that are answered in this book going back over the decades.
[24:37.270 --> 24:38.070] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's really...
[24:38.070 --> 24:39.090] [SPEAKER_08]: I just find it fascinating.
[24:39.270 --> 24:50.050] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, people writing in about they're afraid that just the magazine getting mailed to their home would get them on some government hit list or, God forbid, if their name was seen in print along with a forbidden...
[24:50.050 --> 24:51.010] [SPEAKER_08]: a question to a...
[24:51.010 --> 24:52.990] [SPEAKER_08]: you know, for asking forbidden information.
[24:53.150 --> 24:54.250] [SPEAKER_08]: It's really interesting.
[24:54.430 --> 25:01.710] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just the kind of questions that people ask and the answers they get make this really a worthwhile thing to get.
[25:01.850 --> 25:12.490] [SPEAKER_08]: So I encourage our listeners to call 212-209-2950 and read all the questions that people are really afraid to ask that they wouldn't even put their name to them.
[25:12.750 --> 25:22.490] [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950 For $75 you get this book of 600 pages of forbidden questions and the Off The Hook T-shirt freshly designed by Rob T.
[25:22.590 --> 25:22.930] [SPEAKER_08]: Firefly.
[25:23.110 --> 25:34.370] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you want to hear all the Off The Hook episodes going back to 1988 a pledge of 125 will get you the book and the shirt and 20 DVDs full of MP3s with high quality audio of all the shows.
[25:36.110 --> 25:46.570] [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950 for a huge amount of information but like I said the biggest premium is WBAI the only radio station I know of who would broadcast this kind of information.
[25:46.810 --> 25:53.250] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950 And you just reminded me too we were talking about famous people writing in.
[25:53.370 --> 25:57.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually Bernie you wrote a few letters before we actually knew who you were.
[25:57.210 --> 25:58.330] [SPEAKER_01]: You wrote a bunch of letters to 2,600.
[25:59.130 --> 26:00.290] [SPEAKER_08]: I guess I did.
[26:00.490 --> 26:05.810] [SPEAKER_08]: I think the first time I wrote in was probably back in 85-86 or something.
[26:05.970 --> 26:07.310] [SPEAKER_08]: It might have been something about cellular phones.
[26:07.330 --> 26:08.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, in fact it was.
[26:08.350 --> 26:10.290] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one of the letters that made it into the book.
[26:10.370 --> 26:12.870] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty sure in fact several of your letters are in the book.
[26:13.650 --> 26:22.530] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I think I had a gripe that several pages of the magazine were filled with all the cellular telephone frequencies and I thought well hey I can't believe you remember that.
[26:22.630 --> 26:25.810] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you remember what got you upset back in the 80s.
[26:26.230 --> 26:31.450] [SPEAKER_08]: You made a good point that the first time your letter is published in 2,600 it makes a big impression.
[26:31.690 --> 26:52.150] [SPEAKER_08]: I still remember this was like decades ago but I just put together a quick formula for I think it was a little programming basic you could raise like a three-line program that would allow you to either enter the frequency or the cellular telephone channel and it would give you the other frequency of the channel and you could listen to phone calls on your scanner.
[26:52.390 --> 27:01.350] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I remember it our witty retort to you was that okay if you do that if you have that particular formula what are you going to do you going to print out the list so we basically saved people a step by printing the list in the first place.
[27:01.570 --> 27:02.610] [SPEAKER_08]: You made a good point.
[27:02.850 --> 27:13.850] [SPEAKER_08]: So that's the kind of stuff that I mean some good witty retorts to you know or like Mad Magazine used to have a great section snappy answers to stupid questions.
[27:14.030 --> 27:17.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were a big inspiration to us along with other publications as well.
[27:17.570 --> 27:18.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob you have something?
[27:18.330 --> 27:24.930] [SPEAKER_06]: I've actually got that letter in question right here we have it by Bernie S Wow as we say it was?
[27:25.270 --> 27:49.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah pretty much pretty much okay well it's a fresher on my memory I'm very impressed that Bernie remembers it because he hasn't been editing the book for the last few months but yeah that's just part of the magic that you'll get if you call 212-209-2950 pledge 75 for the book autographed copy of the book dear hacker and 125 get the book and the archive of Off The Hook 212-209-2950 Okay let's move
[27:49.130 --> 28:18.310] [SPEAKER_01]: on to a story that has been all over the place in recent days this comes off of Wired federal officials have arrested an army intelligence analyst who boasted of giving classified US combat video and hundreds of thousands of classified state department records to whistleblower site WikiLeaks SPC Bradley Manning of Potomac Maryland was stationed at forward operating base Hammer 40 miles east of
[28:18.310 --> 28:22.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Baghdad, when he was arrested nearly two weeks ago by the Army's Criminal Investigation Division.
[28:23.230 --> 28:27.370] [SPEAKER_01]: A family member says he's being held in custody in Kuwait and has not been formally charged.
[28:27.670 --> 28:32.830] [SPEAKER_01]: He was turned in late last month by a former computer hacker with whom he spoke online.
[28:33.070 --> 28:40.990] [SPEAKER_01]: In the course of their chats, Manning took credit for leaking a headline-making video of a helicopter attack that WikiLeaks posted online in April.
[28:41.250 --> 28:44.350] [SPEAKER_01]: That video showed a deadly 2007 U.S.
[28:44.430 --> 28:47.870] [SPEAKER_01]: helicopter airstrike in Baghdad that claimed the lives of several innocent civilians.
[28:48.050 --> 28:59.210] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you recall, we had the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, on our radio station, on our show, a day or two after this came out.
[28:59.270 --> 29:03.550] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, he's also going to be one of our keynote speakers at The Next Hope this July.
[29:04.410 --> 29:07.770] [SPEAKER_01]: So, wow, this is hitting pretty close to home already.
[29:08.030 --> 29:27.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this guy, this Army guy, said that he also leaked three other items to WikiLeaks, a separate video showing the notorious 2009 Ghirani airstrike in Afghanistan that WikiLeaks has previously acknowledged is in its possession, a classified Army document evaluating WikiLeaks as a security threat,
[29:27.650 --> 29:34.030] [SPEAKER_01]: which the site posted in March, and a previously unreported breach consisting of 260,000 classified U.S.
[29:34.250 --> 29:39.550] [SPEAKER_01]: diplomatic cables that Manning described as exposing almost criminal political back dealings.
[29:39.910 --> 29:41.030] [SPEAKER_01]: This is what he said.
[29:41.030 --> 29:52.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Hillary Clinton and several thousand diplomats around the world are going to have a heart attack when they wake up one morning and find an entire repository of classified foreign policy is available in searchable format to the public.
[29:53.510 --> 30:00.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Wired could not confirm whether WikiLeaks received the supposed 260,000 classified embassy dispatches.
[30:00.790 --> 30:04.050] [SPEAKER_01]: To date, a single classified diplomatic cable has appeared on the site.
[30:04.210 --> 30:06.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Released last February, describes a U.S.
[30:06.390 --> 30:08.170] [SPEAKER_01]: embassy meeting with the government of Iceland.
[30:10.350 --> 30:23.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Manning's arrest comes as WikiLeaks has ratcheted up pressure against various governments over the years with embarrassing documents acquired through a global whistleblower network that is seemingly impervious to threats from adversaries.
[30:24.410 --> 30:27.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, its operations are hosted on servers in several countries.
[30:27.630 --> 30:35.910] [SPEAKER_01]: It uses high-level encryption for its document submission process, providing secure anonymity for its sources and a safe haven from legal repercussions for itself.
[30:35.910 --> 30:43.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And since its launch in 2006, it has never outed a source through its own actions, either voluntarily or involuntarily.
[30:44.310 --> 30:54.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Manning came to the attention of the FBI and Army investigators after he contacted former hacker Adrian Lamo late last month over instant messenger and email.
[30:54.670 --> 30:57.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Lamo had just been the subject of another Wired article.
[30:57.510 --> 31:03.790] [SPEAKER_01]: And very quickly in his exchange with Lamo, Manning claimed to be the WikiLeaks video leaker.
[31:03.790 --> 31:11.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, from the chat logs that were provided by Lamo and examined by Wired, it appears Manning sensed a kindred spirit in the ex-hacker.
[31:11.910 --> 31:19.890] [SPEAKER_01]: He discussed personal issues that got him into trouble with his superiors and left him socially isolated and said he had been demoted and was headed for an early discharge from the Army.
[31:20.410 --> 31:35.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, when Manning told Lamo that he leaked a quarter million classified embassy cables, Lamo contacted the Army and then met with Army CID investigators and the FBI at a Starbucks near his house in Carmichael, California, where he passed the agents a copy of the chat logs.
[31:36.170 --> 31:42.190] [SPEAKER_01]: At their second meeting, FBI agents from the Oakland field office told the hacker that Manning had been arrested the day before.
[31:43.150 --> 31:49.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Lamo has contributed funds to WikiLeaks in the past and says he agonized over the decision to expose Manning.
[31:49.150 --> 31:55.110] [SPEAKER_01]: He says he's frequently contacted by hackers who want to talk about their adventures and he has never considered reporting anyone before.
[31:55.570 --> 32:01.970] [SPEAKER_01]: The supposed diplomatic cable leak, however, made him believe Manning's actions were genuinely dangerous to U.S.
[32:02.090 --> 32:02.990] [SPEAKER_01]: national security.
[32:03.470 --> 32:06.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, interesting quote here from Manning.
[32:06.890 --> 32:18.810] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that the networks that he had access to contain, quote, incredible things, awful things that belonged in the public domain and not on some server stored in a dark room in Washington, D.C.
[32:19.890 --> 32:24.170] [SPEAKER_01]: He has an interesting way of speaking sometimes.
[32:24.390 --> 32:25.210] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll read a couple more quotes.
[32:25.310 --> 32:34.090] [SPEAKER_01]: But basically, the video, the thing that everybody was talking about a couple of months ago, was released by WikiLeaks under the title Collateral Murder.
[32:34.270 --> 32:40.650] [SPEAKER_01]: It shows a 2007 Army helicopter attack on a group of men, some of whom were armed that the soldiers believed were insurgents.
[32:40.970 --> 32:48.470] [SPEAKER_01]: The attack killed two Reuters employees and an unarmed Baghdad man who stumbled on the scene afterward and tried to rescue one of the wounded by pulling him into his van.
[32:48.770 --> 32:52.930] [SPEAKER_01]: The man's two children were in the van and suffered serious injuries in the hail of gunfire.
[32:55.070 --> 33:02.430] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the friends of Manning, Tyler Watkins, from Boston, said he wanted to do the right thing.
[33:02.730 --> 33:04.990] [SPEAKER_01]: That was something I think he was struggling with.
[33:05.670 --> 33:08.070] [SPEAKER_01]: He would message me, are people talking about it?
[33:08.090 --> 33:09.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Are the media saying anything?
[33:09.550 --> 33:15.070] [SPEAKER_01]: That was one of his major concerns, that once he had done this, once he had released the videos, was it really going to make a difference?
[33:15.070 --> 33:17.170] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't want to do this just to cause a stir.
[33:17.330 --> 33:21.150] [SPEAKER_01]: He wanted people held accountable and wanted to see that this didn't happen again.
[33:21.470 --> 33:30.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the second video he claimed to have leaked shows a May 2009 strike near Gurani village in Afghanistan that the local government says killed nearly 100 civilians, most of them children.
[33:31.270 --> 33:35.730] [SPEAKER_01]: The Pentagon released a report about the incident, but backed down on a plan to show the video.
[33:36.650 --> 33:41.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Manning had access to two classified networks from two separate secured laptops.
[33:41.230 --> 33:52.730] [SPEAKER_01]: SuperNet, the secret-level network used by the Department of Defense and the State Department, and the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communication System, which serves both agencies at the top-secret-slash-SCI level.
[33:53.290 --> 33:58.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Manning told Lamo that the Gurani video was left accessible in a directory on a U.S.
[33:58.770 --> 34:05.250] [SPEAKER_01]: central command server, centcom.smil.mil, by officers who investigated the incident.
[34:05.390 --> 34:09.590] [SPEAKER_01]: The video, he said, was an encrypted AES-256 zip file.
[34:10.470 --> 34:11.930] [SPEAKER_01]: Everywhere there's a U.S.
[34:12.090 --> 34:15.370] [SPEAKER_01]: post, Manning said, there's a diplomatic scandal that will be revealed.
[34:15.530 --> 34:18.630] [SPEAKER_01]: It's open diplomacy, worldwide anarchy in CSV format.
[34:18.850 --> 34:22.010] [SPEAKER_01]: It's climate gate with a global scope and breathtaking depth.
[34:22.230 --> 34:23.690] [SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful and horrifying.
[34:24.470 --> 34:27.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this guy has a way with the soundbites, I'll say that.
[34:27.670 --> 34:33.030] [SPEAKER_01]: But, boy, this is something that really has hit the fan big time.
[34:33.030 --> 34:50.810] [SPEAKER_01]: For one thing, Adrian Lamo is associated with 2600 on a number of levels, has been on this show, and has an account on our machine, and runs the Facebook site for 2600, our Facebook group.
[34:52.130 --> 35:01.510] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that might be one of the reasons why we were flooded yesterday with attacks on our site, even though we had no knowledge of any of this.
[35:02.170 --> 35:07.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, Julian Assange is our keynote speaker, or one of our keynote speakers, at the Next Hope in July.
[35:07.730 --> 35:10.590] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing it from both ends here.
[35:11.210 --> 35:17.130] [SPEAKER_01]: The question is, did Adrian Lamo do the right thing by turning in this guy?
[35:17.470 --> 35:18.650] [SPEAKER_01]: Jim, you're shaking your head.
[35:19.110 --> 35:19.250] [SPEAKER_01]: No.
[35:19.510 --> 35:19.790] [SPEAKER_01]: No?
[35:19.970 --> 35:20.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[35:20.510 --> 35:21.330] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you say, Mike?
[35:21.530 --> 35:25.310] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think, first of all, we need to use the word allegedly in almost every sentence there.
[35:25.310 --> 35:25.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[35:25.790 --> 35:27.090] [SPEAKER_05]: We have no evidence...
[35:27.090 --> 35:29.250] [SPEAKER_05]: This is basically a single-sourced article.
[35:29.550 --> 35:33.930] [SPEAKER_05]: We have no evidence that anyone told Adrian Lamo this, that...
[35:33.930 --> 35:36.750] [SPEAKER_01]: My question was about Adrian Lamo, if he did the right thing.
[35:36.770 --> 35:52.810] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, so it's just assuming, for argument's sake, that the story is reported accurately, and that Adrian at least honestly believed that this guy was the WikiLeaks leaker, whether or not even that is true.
[35:54.170 --> 35:59.470] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that whoever sent these documents to WikiLeaks really ought to be commended.
[35:59.950 --> 36:10.090] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that as the people who funded the production of these killings and funded the production of these documents, we have the right to know about it.
[36:10.670 --> 36:12.290] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I totally agree with that.
[36:12.370 --> 36:16.630] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that was the reason that he felt compelled to turn him in.
[36:16.630 --> 36:22.830] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when he heard that there were 260,000, what is it, diplomatic...
[36:22.830 --> 36:28.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, this is one of the reasons I wanted to use the word allegedly a lot, because WikiLeaks says they have no such thing in their possession.
[36:29.350 --> 36:34.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And there has been quite a Twitter war going on between WikiLeaks and Wired, as far as this...
[36:34.030 --> 36:34.890] [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of entertaining, yeah.
[36:34.890 --> 36:40.690] [SPEAKER_01]: WikiLeaks is accusing both Adrian Lamo and Kevin Poulsen, who wrote the article of being convicted felons that you can't trust.
[36:40.690 --> 36:45.110] [SPEAKER_01]: And Wired is writing back with all kinds of other responses to that.
[36:45.290 --> 36:49.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we're getting ping-flooded off the net in the process.
[36:49.670 --> 36:53.530] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's all kinds of open warfare going on on the Internet right now concerning this.
[36:53.610 --> 37:01.350] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think reading some of the commentary, almost universally, it seems a lot of people are condemning what Adrian Lamo did.
[37:01.370 --> 37:04.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just wondering if that's completely fair.
[37:04.550 --> 37:10.490] [SPEAKER_04]: You also have to take into account that WikiLeaks doesn't just take things in and then publish them immediately.
[37:10.490 --> 37:13.470] [SPEAKER_04]: There is an amount of editorial discretion that goes into it.
[37:14.010 --> 37:15.950] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I think that if they...
[37:15.950 --> 37:23.550] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, generally, it seems that their concern is to kind of shake things up and, you know, people who wouldn't otherwise be held accountable for things to be held accountable.
[37:23.670 --> 37:29.450] [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't think that they would go so far, you know, as to do things that would maybe put other people's lives in danger.
[37:29.610 --> 37:38.730] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think, you know, allegedly, Adrian Lamo's concern was that, you know, people would be endangered by this kind of information being out there.
[37:38.730 --> 37:46.170] [SPEAKER_04]: But WikiLeaks, at the same time, you know, I think, in a way, they're trying to help and they're trying to get things out there that should be out there, but they probably have some amount of discretion.
[37:46.750 --> 37:47.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, go ahead, Mike.
[37:47.670 --> 37:51.490] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, people's lives are endangered by the suppression of U.S.
[37:51.570 --> 37:52.250] [SPEAKER_05]: government information.
[37:52.450 --> 37:58.170] [SPEAKER_05]: People's lives are put in danger because Americans, by and large, don't know that their government kills journalists in Iraq.
[37:58.370 --> 37:59.130] [SPEAKER_05]: But they do now.
[37:59.210 --> 38:00.090] [SPEAKER_05]: They know that now.
[38:00.110 --> 38:00.690] [SPEAKER_05]: And they know now.
[38:00.830 --> 38:03.670] [SPEAKER_05]: And hopefully, this will, you know, it's a long process.
[38:03.750 --> 38:10.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you say the same thing about 260,000 classified documents, that they're not going to put people's lives in danger if they're released?
[38:10.390 --> 38:13.230] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if these documents even exist, then I don't know what's in them.
[38:13.290 --> 38:13.990] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's hard to say.
[38:14.230 --> 38:18.370] [SPEAKER_01]: That's an interesting thing, too, because this guy said he had 260,000 documents.
[38:18.630 --> 38:21.410] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that was just posturing in the hacker world.
[38:21.550 --> 38:22.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Believe it or not, there is a lot of posturing.
[38:23.150 --> 38:24.590] [SPEAKER_01]: If you read the letters book, you'll see that.
[38:25.230 --> 38:29.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And in this particular case, I don't know for sure if he was just making that up.
[38:29.330 --> 38:30.210] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no real evidence.
[38:30.410 --> 38:31.950] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't even know for sure that he said that.
[38:32.170 --> 38:33.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Again, it's a single-sourced article.
[38:33.490 --> 38:38.290] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, there are chat logs, allegedly, unless that's something that's not true.
[38:38.330 --> 38:38.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I haven't seen them.
[38:38.510 --> 38:40.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, you haven't seen them, but...
[38:40.150 --> 38:40.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so...
[38:41.270 --> 38:43.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, I mean, I don't know how big you would think a conspiracy is here.
[38:43.510 --> 38:43.770] [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[38:44.870 --> 38:46.530] [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't require conspiracy at all.
[38:46.530 --> 38:48.430] [SPEAKER_05]: It requires Adrian to be not telling the truth.
[38:48.530 --> 38:49.990] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't know that he isn't, but...
[38:49.990 --> 39:05.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, but if he received a chat from somebody in the army saying that he just released 260,000 confidential messages to a WikiLeaks site, would that be something that you would be concerned with if you saw that?
[39:05.690 --> 39:13.770] [SPEAKER_01]: If you got a message like that from somebody, would you trust that all those messages weren't going to cause any kind of damage by being released?
[39:14.230 --> 39:22.570] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was an impossible situation he was put in if all the facts are what we're being led to believe they are, what's being reported in this story.
[39:22.850 --> 39:23.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead, Rob.
[39:23.150 --> 39:23.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel.
[39:24.210 --> 39:25.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob first, then Bernie, then dot.ret.
[39:26.310 --> 39:28.130] [SPEAKER_06]: I would like to say that, you know, I...
[39:28.130 --> 39:35.410] [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, I don't know Adrian Lamo on any kind of personal level, but I'm familiar with some of the things he's done and some of the things he's written and so on, and his case and what have you.
[39:35.510 --> 39:38.550] [SPEAKER_06]: But I am pretty sure that he's not a stupid person.
[39:39.130 --> 39:47.670] [SPEAKER_06]: Going into this and making the decision that he did, he knew what the consequences would be not only among the hacker community or among the government or what have you.
[39:47.750 --> 39:52.550] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he was pretty much able to see what would happen once he did this, and then he did it.
[39:52.730 --> 40:02.750] [SPEAKER_06]: So whatever caused him to take this as his, you know, to make this decision to act in this way, I think he knew what was coming, and so he had to be really sure.
[40:03.230 --> 40:10.210] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I don't know what was going on in his head or what was going on in anyone else's head, and I don't know the situation any more than was written on that page.
[40:10.210 --> 40:16.110] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think that it's worth considering that he really believed he was doing the right thing.
[40:16.390 --> 40:23.270] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, hopefully we'll hear more from anyone, you know, on that side of the story, and we can get some kind of...
[40:23.270 --> 40:27.710] [SPEAKER_01]: If you just ask yourself the question, what would you do in that situation, and give yourself five seconds to answer it.
[40:28.010 --> 40:34.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're able to do that, ask yourself why you're so sure that you went one way or the other, because I know I'm not.
[40:34.350 --> 40:36.110] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll take me a while to figure out what to do.
[40:36.110 --> 40:40.990] [SPEAKER_06]: And also, I also know that if I were the person who leaked such material, I would not be bragging about it to anybody.
[40:41.230 --> 40:41.850] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing.
[40:41.930 --> 40:44.050] [SPEAKER_01]: This guy, I mean, the intellect on him.
[40:45.470 --> 40:45.870] [SPEAKER_01]: It's...
[40:46.290 --> 40:47.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is what people do.
[40:47.730 --> 40:48.990] [SPEAKER_01]: They brag about things.
[40:49.250 --> 40:53.090] [SPEAKER_06]: WikiLeaks exists so people can do this without, you know, it becoming known who they were.
[40:53.210 --> 41:00.670] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one thing to find a video that exposes the military as liars and killers and things like that.
[41:00.670 --> 41:06.790] [SPEAKER_01]: That, I think, is commendable, and that's something that, you know, we owe him a great debt for getting the truth out, as far as that goes.
[41:07.830 --> 41:12.610] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're going to just release everything without even knowing what it is, that's irresponsible.
[41:12.750 --> 41:16.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're going to say that he did something that he didn't do, that's irresponsible as well.
[41:16.050 --> 41:17.970] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what he's paying the price for, mostly.
[41:18.330 --> 41:19.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's one thing that's interesting.
[41:19.410 --> 41:20.270] [SPEAKER_01]: It strikes me as interesting here.
[41:20.330 --> 41:21.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe somebody can answer this.
[41:31.350 --> 41:36.570] [SPEAKER_01]: In somebody's directory, what I want to know is, how did he know what it was then, if it was encrypted?
[41:36.910 --> 41:38.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Does anybody know the answer to that?
[41:38.250 --> 41:40.290] [SPEAKER_04]: It was probably named, as to what it was.
[41:40.690 --> 41:41.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Soldiers killing civilians?
[41:42.010 --> 41:42.250] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[41:42.370 --> 41:46.790] [SPEAKER_04]: It might have had, you know, it might have had the location and the date in the name.
[41:46.890 --> 41:47.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, maybe.
[41:47.350 --> 41:51.090] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you could put two and two together and say, well, this event happened on that date at that location.
[41:51.390 --> 41:53.190] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess, if they log everything in that.
[41:53.270 --> 41:54.910] [SPEAKER_01]: But if he understands the system, that's true.
[41:54.990 --> 42:01.530] [SPEAKER_04]: We know that with the other video that was released by WikiLeaks, they did have to do a fair amount of work to actually get the video.
[42:01.730 --> 42:02.790] [SPEAKER_04]: They had to decrypt the zip file.
[42:02.870 --> 42:03.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it was encrypted.
[42:03.430 --> 42:04.330] [SPEAKER_04]: So it was encrypted.
[42:04.550 --> 42:08.170] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sure the same situation held, you know, that they knew it.
[42:08.370 --> 42:10.490] [SPEAKER_04]: He knew it was in that, probably for the same reason.
[42:10.530 --> 42:11.370] [SPEAKER_01]: But you see, he didn't decrypt it.
[42:11.630 --> 42:13.150] [SPEAKER_01]: The people at WikiLeaks decrypted it.
[42:13.270 --> 42:15.350] [SPEAKER_01]: So he didn't know for sure what it was he was giving them.
[42:15.490 --> 42:16.190] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I don't get.
[42:16.310 --> 42:16.450] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's the thing.
[42:16.590 --> 42:17.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Think about it.
[42:17.110 --> 42:20.490] [SPEAKER_04]: If you're a government organization, you probably want to know what every file...
[42:20.490 --> 42:25.450] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you're assuming the security of the file is the fact that nobody has access to it, right?
[42:25.790 --> 42:26.630] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's encrypted.
[42:26.790 --> 42:29.350] [SPEAKER_04]: But also the fact that it's on this, you know, secure network.
[42:30.130 --> 42:32.590] [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, what they're...
[42:33.170 --> 42:33.810] [SPEAKER_04]: They're probably...
[42:33.810 --> 42:35.130] [SPEAKER_04]: But you still want to keep track of it.
[42:35.170 --> 42:36.350] [SPEAKER_04]: You want to know where this file is.
[42:36.430 --> 42:40.850] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sure they named it in a way that said, okay, well, this is so-and-so event that we were investigating.
[42:40.970 --> 42:42.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Just one of many questions that I have about all this.
[42:42.870 --> 42:44.150] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that the truth comes out.
[42:44.230 --> 42:44.650] [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, go ahead.
[42:45.210 --> 43:05.250] [SPEAKER_08]: To answer your question, Bradley Manning, the military official who allegedly leaked this video, was allegedly reportedly told Adrian Lamo that, in addition to the file name, that the location of the file raised red flags for him.
[43:05.350 --> 43:09.450] [SPEAKER_08]: It was in the folder of a judge advocate general.
[43:09.670 --> 43:12.430] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like a military attorney's folder.
[43:12.770 --> 43:20.010] [SPEAKER_08]: So that in and of itself would indicate that the contents of this video file was of concern to the military.
[43:20.350 --> 43:21.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this a TV show?
[43:21.210 --> 43:26.950] [SPEAKER_01]: He actually went into that judge's directory and he's able to see all the sensitive cases because, what, it's in a folder called sensitive cases?
[43:27.710 --> 43:28.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[43:28.330 --> 43:29.210] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know, but...
[43:29.210 --> 43:30.270] [SPEAKER_01]: This is our military.
[43:30.450 --> 43:31.270] [SPEAKER_01]: This is how they run things.
[43:32.690 --> 43:38.850] [SPEAKER_08]: So, but back to your other question, you know, would you do this if you were in Adrian Lamo's shoes?
[43:39.010 --> 43:42.050] [SPEAKER_08]: I believe Adrian Lamo is an honorable and honest person.
[43:42.850 --> 43:45.490] [SPEAKER_08]: However, his motivations may be different from other people.
[43:45.490 --> 43:58.010] [SPEAKER_08]: If I were in his shoes, knowing what I know now, I would not have contacted the Army and said, hey, this guy just told me he released 260,000 classified diplomatic cables to WikiLeaks.
[43:58.370 --> 44:04.150] [SPEAKER_08]: However, it's insightful to know that there is a federal...
[44:04.150 --> 44:10.590] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a federal crime to not have done what Adrian Lamo did.
[44:10.590 --> 44:15.050] [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, there's a federal felony under Title 18 called misprision of a felony.
[44:15.050 --> 44:17.890] [SPEAKER_08]: And what that means is, I'll just read the statute here.
[44:17.990 --> 44:33.030] [SPEAKER_08]: It says, whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States,
[44:33.170 --> 44:38.550] [SPEAKER_08]: shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years or both.
[44:38.550 --> 44:47.610] [SPEAKER_08]: So, Adrian Lamo was probably still under government surveillance because he spent some time in federal prison not too long ago, a few years ago.
[44:47.830 --> 44:50.110] [SPEAKER_08]: It would not be surprising if he was still under surveillance.
[44:50.470 --> 45:06.130] [SPEAKER_08]: And with the way this military guy was shooting his mouth off and bragging to more than one person, reportedly, that he'd released these files to WikiLeaks, it's not inconceivable to think that Adrian Lamo would have thought, well, this kid's going to get himself busted,
[45:06.130 --> 45:13.590] [SPEAKER_08]: and it's going to show up in this kid's files that he was communicating this information to me, and then I'm going to go to prison as well.
[45:13.690 --> 45:24.170] [SPEAKER_08]: So, I'm not justifying what Adrian Lamo did, but it's useful to know that Adrian probably knew that he was likely to go to prison for not revealing this information.
[45:24.290 --> 45:25.330] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not justifying it.
[45:25.330 --> 45:27.010] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just saying that's information we should know.
[45:27.490 --> 45:27.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[45:28.170 --> 45:34.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one thing that's interesting is that both of these guys might be coming to the same conference in July here in New York.
[45:34.730 --> 45:37.390] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not exactly sure yet if that's actually going to happen.
[45:37.510 --> 45:49.510] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, I know that there's a lot of question now as to whether or not Julian would be safe coming to this country in light of all the heat that's coming down as a result of WikiLeaks being in the news.
[45:49.510 --> 46:01.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And the last thing we want to do, of course, is put somebody in harm's way as far as being exposed to hostile governments that really wouldn't be very happy with the things that he's exposed through WikiLeaks.
[46:02.370 --> 46:07.510] [SPEAKER_01]: So one way or another, though, we do promise he will be speaking to the conference, hopefully in person.
[46:07.850 --> 46:11.270] [SPEAKER_01]: And if not, in some way, we will make this happen.
[46:11.410 --> 46:15.190] [SPEAKER_01]: But safety is paramount above all else.
[46:15.190 --> 46:21.390] [SPEAKER_01]: And especially, if you think I'm kidding about this, this is a story that showed up in the Sunday Times in London.
[46:21.890 --> 46:28.410] [SPEAKER_01]: NATO is considering the use of military force against enemies who launch cyber attacks on its member states.
[46:28.890 --> 46:29.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[46:29.750 --> 46:37.350] [SPEAKER_01]: The move follows a series of Russian-linked hacking against NATO members and warnings from intelligence services of the growing threat from China.
[46:37.350 --> 46:42.050] [SPEAKER_01]: A team of NATO experts led by none other than Madeleine Albright, the former U.S. Secretary of State, has warned that the next attack on a NATO country may well come down a fiber optic cable.
[46:48.150 --> 46:56.070] [SPEAKER_01]: A report by Albright's group said that a cyber-attack on the critical infrastructure of a NATO country could equate to an armed attack justifying retaliation.
[46:56.190 --> 47:02.110] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, the next time some kid hacks into the power grid, a missile could be launched at his home somewhere in the world.
[47:02.110 --> 47:03.470] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a stretch.
[47:03.690 --> 47:09.890] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, this case here doesn't have to do with hacking into a system, but it does have to do with pissing off a powerful government.
[47:10.110 --> 47:12.910] [SPEAKER_01]: And pissed-off governments tend to do irrational things.
[47:13.010 --> 47:13.470] [SPEAKER_01]: Dot.ret, go ahead.
[47:14.210 --> 47:16.510] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, yeah, that's extremely disturbing.
[47:16.730 --> 47:27.650] [SPEAKER_09]: But just coming back to Manning and supposedly leaking 260,000 somewhat classified documents, how does somebody have access to that?
[47:27.650 --> 47:29.630] [SPEAKER_01]: 2,600 is in that number.
[47:29.750 --> 47:30.650] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just pointing that out.
[47:30.790 --> 47:31.470] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of interesting.
[47:32.170 --> 47:34.350] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, how exactly does it have access to that?
[47:34.430 --> 47:36.250] [SPEAKER_09]: Like you pointed out, it's almost like a TV thing.
[47:36.330 --> 47:39.790] [SPEAKER_09]: It just goes to a JAG folder and it's just like, oh, this must be interesting.
[47:40.030 --> 47:43.270] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, the whole thing about classified documents, is it supposed to be need-to-know?
[47:44.190 --> 47:46.030] [SPEAKER_09]: Is it even possible for them to have had access?
[47:46.370 --> 47:47.050] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, apparently.
[47:47.390 --> 47:47.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Lady Gaga discs.
[47:48.150 --> 47:49.410] [SPEAKER_09]: What was that about Lady Gaga discs?
[47:49.410 --> 48:12.850] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that was reportedly, Bradley Manning told Adrian Lamo that he would go in with a CD-RW disc, you know, a blank CD, with a music file, like Lady Gaga music files on it, and then erase them, and then fill it with, you know, tens of thousands of classified diplomatic cables from the U.S.
[48:12.930 --> 48:15.270] [SPEAKER_08]: government, and then take them out.
[48:15.270 --> 48:17.050] [SPEAKER_08]: He said that he would not be searched.
[48:17.150 --> 48:19.450] [SPEAKER_08]: They would just look at the disc on the way out and say, okay, bye.
[48:19.990 --> 48:21.630] [SPEAKER_08]: He said their security was ridiculous.
[48:21.830 --> 48:28.670] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't have the quote in front of him, but he made some comments, allegedly, about how ridiculously poor U.S.
[48:28.790 --> 48:29.910] [SPEAKER_08]: security was in this respect.
[48:30.010 --> 48:34.170] [SPEAKER_04]: So he would just hide them in a different directory on the disc and leave the music files there?
[48:34.990 --> 48:36.410] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure exactly how he did it.
[48:36.670 --> 48:37.650] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not clear on that.
[48:37.750 --> 48:40.930] [SPEAKER_08]: But apparently they're on a CD that said Lady Gaga, among other things.
[48:40.930 --> 48:47.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I got to say, we have a lot of people here that seem to be doing what they thought was the best thing.
[48:48.650 --> 48:58.370] [SPEAKER_01]: We have, of course, Julian Assange, who continues to work with WikiLeaks and put out information that he feels should be released and known to the world, and I can't say I disagree with that.
[48:58.370 --> 49:09.190] [SPEAKER_01]: You have Adrian Lamo, who was hit with an incredibly conflicting situation and made a decision based on the information he had.
[49:09.290 --> 49:18.890] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think his motives weren't evil, but whether or not he unintentionally committed evil by doing so, that remains to be seen.
[49:18.890 --> 49:31.270] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, you have this poor guy in the army who was going around releasing things that he felt should be seen, no doubt in the interest of justice, in the interest of full disclosure.
[49:31.930 --> 49:41.170] [SPEAKER_01]: About the only people that I think really need a good slap here are the people in charge of security of the computer systems there, because they certainly were not doing their job.
[49:41.170 --> 49:49.730] [SPEAKER_01]: The army is not doing a very convincing job of keeping information on a need-to-know basis to the people who, quote-unquote, need to know.
[49:49.790 --> 49:51.850] [SPEAKER_01]: And I disagree about who needs to know this.
[49:51.850 --> 49:56.710] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad people know the classified things, because I think way too much is classified.
[49:57.310 --> 50:02.230] [SPEAKER_01]: But in this particular case, in the confines of what they're supposed to be doing, they certainly were not doing their job.
[50:02.810 --> 50:09.290] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just, you know, I hope there's a way that people can just kind of learn from this, and nobody winds up having their lives ruined.
[50:09.290 --> 50:12.450] [SPEAKER_01]: But, of course, I'm naive and idealistic, and I know that's probably not going to happen.
[50:12.550 --> 50:12.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike?
[50:12.870 --> 50:18.510] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, unless, of course, the people were doing their job, and Manning watched too many television shows and made the whole thing up.
[50:18.570 --> 50:20.690] [SPEAKER_01]: In which case, okay, he lied to a lot of people.
[50:20.790 --> 50:21.610] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is foolish.
[50:21.790 --> 50:23.450] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but he shouldn't go to prison for lying.
[50:24.230 --> 50:32.730] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I just want to reiterate that Manning says he sent these documents to WikiLeaks, and WikiLeaks says they have no such documents, so one of them is wrong.
[50:33.110 --> 50:34.630] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so somebody's lying on the Internet.
[50:34.910 --> 50:36.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I don't know who.
[50:36.690 --> 50:37.250] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a crime yet.
[50:37.250 --> 50:39.230] [SPEAKER_09]: But these are, like, they can't both be right.
[50:39.490 --> 50:40.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true.
[50:40.590 --> 50:43.870] [SPEAKER_09]: That'll be hard to resolve, because I'm sure WikiLeaks is going to say, hey, U.S.
[50:43.970 --> 50:49.070] [SPEAKER_09]: government, send somebody over and look at all the files we have on our servers to show that we don't have this.
[50:49.090 --> 50:49.770] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and the U.S.
[50:49.790 --> 50:51.010] [SPEAKER_09]: government might go to jail for...
[50:51.010 --> 50:52.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Might not wait for an invitation.
[50:52.490 --> 50:55.530] [SPEAKER_01]: That's something that, obviously, we're all worried about.
[50:55.590 --> 50:57.910] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, but this is in another country, so...
[50:57.910 --> 51:06.330] [SPEAKER_01]: But the thing is, if the right people are doing their jobs in the first place, then we shouldn't be worried about all these classified documents falling into the wrong hands, because we know that they're secure.
[51:07.250 --> 51:10.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Beyond anything else, apart from what's in the documents, that they are not secure.
[51:10.990 --> 51:11.870] [SPEAKER_01]: They're anything but secure.
[51:11.990 --> 51:16.750] [SPEAKER_01]: There could be a thousand people like this who had access to it, and who knows what their intentions might be.
[51:16.830 --> 51:16.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob?
[51:17.310 --> 51:18.770] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to disagree with you on one point.
[51:18.910 --> 51:24.310] [SPEAKER_06]: I think, assuming that Manning did what he says he did, I think he needs a slap as well for opening his mouth.
[51:25.030 --> 51:26.290] [SPEAKER_06]: Because I love whistleblowers.
[51:26.410 --> 51:27.410] [SPEAKER_06]: I love what they do in general.
[51:27.590 --> 51:30.910] [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, if you do it and you're successful about it, shut your damn mouth.
[51:31.030 --> 51:31.510] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
[51:31.630 --> 51:34.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, especially when you're talking to somebody you don't know very well.
[51:34.870 --> 51:35.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[51:35.170 --> 51:37.190] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how well the two of them knew each other.
[51:37.290 --> 51:39.990] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, you know, plus, you don't...
[51:39.990 --> 51:41.390] [SPEAKER_01]: An Internet chat log?
[51:41.530 --> 51:42.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Who's listening to that, you know?
[51:42.910 --> 51:44.310] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it wasn't very secure.
[51:44.470 --> 51:46.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there are all kinds of ways of eavesdropping.
[51:46.130 --> 51:46.370] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[51:46.370 --> 51:57.930] [SPEAKER_09]: Now, also, if he did, in fact, do this, the security thing, as far as the military's fault, would probably go into the all-too-common thing of segregating computers away from everything else.
[51:58.030 --> 52:07.230] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure in physical, real life, they wouldn't allow some guy to walk into some JAG office and start pulling out files out of, you know, file drawers.
[52:07.450 --> 52:09.830] [SPEAKER_09]: And the same kind of security really should be in place.
[52:09.830 --> 52:12.510] [SPEAKER_01]: The term JAG office is a real term in the Army, all right?
[52:12.570 --> 52:14.530] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just what they call it.
[52:14.650 --> 52:16.110] [SPEAKER_01]: What does it stand for, Bernie?
[52:16.110 --> 52:16.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Judge Attorney General.
[52:17.990 --> 52:18.910] [SPEAKER_03]: Judge Advocate General.
[52:18.970 --> 52:19.770] [SPEAKER_09]: Judge Advocate General.
[52:19.950 --> 52:20.410] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, yeah.
[52:21.090 --> 52:21.690] [SPEAKER_09]: Mixing terms.
[52:21.810 --> 52:22.090] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[52:22.850 --> 52:25.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is certainly a controversial topic.
[52:25.790 --> 52:32.190] [SPEAKER_01]: No doubt we'll be talking about this for many weeks to come, and I'm sure it'll be something that's addressed at the conference quite a bit.
[52:32.270 --> 52:35.650] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, for more information on the conference, go to www.hope.net.
[52:35.950 --> 52:39.630] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe, Mike, we're opening vendor tables now for people to register?
[52:39.950 --> 52:40.210] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[52:40.330 --> 52:44.930] [SPEAKER_05]: If you are a vendor or would like to be a vendor, go to hope.net and scroll down a couple posts.
[52:44.950 --> 52:45.570] [SPEAKER_05]: You'll see the info.
[52:45.570 --> 52:57.510] [SPEAKER_01]: And by vendor means somebody who either wants to get some doctrine out to the hacker world or sell something to the hacker world, and there will be thousands of people there looking at what it is that you're offering.
[52:57.510 --> 52:59.190] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very good deal.
[52:59.190 --> 53:01.190] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good way of reaching lots and lots of people.
[53:01.710 --> 53:03.970] [SPEAKER_01]: We have many people come back year after year.
[53:04.910 --> 53:08.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, we're pretty much out of time.
[53:08.110 --> 53:10.570] [SPEAKER_01]: I really wish we could go on for a couple more hours about this.
[53:10.630 --> 53:16.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we're not on next week, but I hope that the subject is still interesting when we're back next.
[53:16.790 --> 53:20.750] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, you can write to us, oth@2600.com, with your thoughts and feelings.
[53:20.750 --> 53:23.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Or perhaps there will be more information in two weeks.
[53:23.170 --> 53:23.930] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure there will be.
[53:24.130 --> 53:24.750] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there will be.
[53:24.830 --> 53:27.050] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we'll hear from all the parties concerned one way or another.
[53:27.730 --> 53:32.150] [SPEAKER_01]: And, again, let's remind people to call in and pledge for the radio station.
[53:32.150 --> 53:33.310] [SPEAKER_01]: We've gotten a very good response.
[53:33.430 --> 53:34.830] [SPEAKER_01]: We're well over $1,000 right now.
[53:35.490 --> 53:38.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Please give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[53:38.330 --> 53:43.150] [SPEAKER_01]: What you just heard now is just a microcosm of the things that get talked about in the letters section.
[53:43.350 --> 53:54.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And by pledging $75, you'll get an autographed copy of the brand-new Dear Hacker book, filled with letters to the editor of 2600 Magazine from 1984 all the way to the end of 2009.
[53:54.670 --> 53:56.230] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[53:56.230 --> 53:59.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Pledge of $75 gets you the autographed copy plus the Off The Hook t-shirt.
[53:59.270 --> 54:08.610] [SPEAKER_01]: And Pledge of $125 gets you all of that plus 22 years of Off The Hook on DVD, 20 DVDs.
[54:08.750 --> 54:12.330] [SPEAKER_06]: And I also want to say really quickly, because without fail, we get mail about this every week.
[54:13.630 --> 54:16.730] [SPEAKER_06]: We can only offer our premiums for this hour while we're live on the air.
[54:16.910 --> 54:30.730] [SPEAKER_06]: If at some other point in time you want to support the station and support the show, you can go to WBAI.org, and there is a mechanism on that site to donate, indicating Off The Hook as your favorite show, which we also appreciate, but we can't give you our premiums for that.
[54:30.910 --> 54:34.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Bernie, I'm going to give you the last word so that you can get more calls coming in, because there's one on the line now.
[54:35.070 --> 54:36.890] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to make it about four or so, so go ahead.
[54:37.130 --> 54:37.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Do your stuff.
[54:37.610 --> 54:40.490] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, again, this was a very exciting program, as many of these are.
[54:40.610 --> 54:44.170] [SPEAKER_08]: And we talk about stuff that no other radio station is going to broadcast.
[54:44.610 --> 54:51.930] [SPEAKER_08]: So I encourage our listeners to please support this kind of broadcast by calling 212-209-2950.
[54:52.150 --> 54:54.570] [SPEAKER_08]: Whatever you can pledge, please pledge.
[54:54.930 --> 54:56.370] [SPEAKER_08]: We have some great thank-you gifts.
[54:56.630 --> 54:57.650] [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't matter what they are.
[54:57.870 --> 55:03.670] [SPEAKER_08]: The main thing is that you support this radio station, WBAI, for allowing this type of material to be broadcast.
[55:03.830 --> 55:04.330] [SPEAKER_08]: Free speech.
[55:04.890 --> 55:05.570] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[55:05.750 --> 55:06.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Good summation there.
[55:06.990 --> 55:08.550] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[55:08.850 --> 55:10.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, $75 gets you the book.
[55:10.570 --> 55:12.830] [SPEAKER_01]: $125 gets you the book, plus the audio archive.
[55:13.210 --> 55:14.170] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great deal.
[55:14.470 --> 55:15.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Only offer tonight.
[55:15.490 --> 55:16.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Only offer for the next couple of minutes.
[55:16.590 --> 55:18.050] [SPEAKER_01]: That's 212-209-2950.
[55:18.270 --> 55:19.150] [SPEAKER_01]: It's manual for Off The Hook.
[55:19.310 --> 55:20.190] [SPEAKER_01]: See you next time.
[55:20.430 --> 55:20.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Good night.