Off The Hook - 2011-01-05

[00:00.000 --> 00:02.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: ...and the peaceful completion of the voting process.
[00:03.100 --> 00:09.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: According to the mission, more than 20,000 people are registered to vote in the Darfur states.
[00:09.480 --> 00:11.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: Deanne Penn, at the United Nations.
[00:14.500 --> 00:16.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the program for today.
[00:17.020 --> 00:19.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for staying with us during these difficult times.
[00:19.740 --> 00:24.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Please visit www.fsrn.org.
[00:24.520 --> 00:27.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: In Washington, D.C., I'm Leanne Caldwell.
[00:34.430 --> 00:38.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you're listening to WBAI 99.5 New York.
[00:38.630 --> 00:41.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: The time is just about 7pm.
[00:41.250 --> 00:43.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Time for another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
[01:57.290 --> 01:58.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: And a very good evening to you.
[01:58.930 --> 02:00.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: The show is Off The Hook.
[02:00.250 --> 02:00.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Rob T.
[02:00.750 --> 02:01.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: Firefly here with you.
[02:01.730 --> 02:04.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: I am joined in the studio today by Dot Rhett.
[02:05.050 --> 02:05.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, hello.
[02:06.210 --> 02:07.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: Let me try that again.
[02:10.410 --> 02:12.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, I am joined in the studio by Dot Rhett.
[02:13.010 --> 02:13.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: Can you hear me now?
[02:13.810 --> 02:14.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: I cannot hear you now.
[02:15.390 --> 02:15.870]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, no.
[02:15.870 --> 02:18.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, Render Man is here.
[02:18.390 --> 02:18.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: How about now?
[02:19.310 --> 02:20.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now is better, yes.
[02:20.470 --> 02:21.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: Render Man is here from Canada.
[02:21.770 --> 02:22.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[02:22.850 --> 02:23.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Gus is here.
[02:23.870 --> 02:24.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, hi, Johnny.
[02:24.490 --> 02:25.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're my favorite customer.
[02:26.910 --> 02:27.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Jim is here.
[02:27.850 --> 02:28.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello.
[02:28.950 --> 02:30.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'm joined by Mike.
[02:30.430 --> 02:30.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi.
[02:31.030 --> 02:33.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: And on the phone, have we got a manual?
[02:34.510 --> 02:35.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're working on it.
[02:35.830 --> 02:37.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, and have we got Bernie S.?
[02:37.490 --> 02:38.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[02:38.450 --> 02:40.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: I am greeting you from Philadelphia.
[02:42.090 --> 02:42.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Fantastic.
[02:42.950 --> 02:46.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, we're still working on Emmanuel, who is where?
[02:47.090 --> 02:47.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: He's still in Europe.
[02:48.970 --> 02:54.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: I talked to some very verbose hotel person in many languages.
[02:54.370 --> 02:55.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: We may have them now.
[02:57.110 --> 02:58.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Emmanuel, is that you?
[02:58.230 --> 02:58.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, can you hear us?
[02:58.830 --> 02:59.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[02:59.830 --> 03:00.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, great.
[03:01.130 --> 03:05.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you thought that we had hung up on you, but really I just had to be quiet because Rob was introducing the show.
[03:06.470 --> 03:10.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, no, actually you did hang up on us because we were just sitting here by the phone.
[03:10.310 --> 03:11.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And all of a sudden it went beep, beep, beep.
[03:11.970 --> 03:14.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that in Europe means that you've been hung up upon.
[03:14.410 --> 03:15.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's very disconcerting.
[03:15.910 --> 03:16.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: It is.
[03:16.670 --> 03:16.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: It is.
[03:16.950 --> 03:18.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's hope it doesn't happen again, Mike.
[03:18.530 --> 03:18.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[03:19.730 --> 03:23.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: We are here in Zurich, which is in Switzerland.
[03:24.350 --> 03:26.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm here tonight with Kyle.
[03:27.150 --> 03:27.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[03:28.070 --> 03:28.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Maxim.
[03:29.230 --> 03:29.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello.
[03:30.190 --> 03:32.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maxim is from Switzerland.
[03:32.550 --> 03:36.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's originally from Basel and now resides in Zurich.
[03:39.110 --> 03:40.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tonight, we're a part of history.
[03:40.710 --> 03:50.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: We were at the first Cass Computer Club-Zurich meeting, which took place in a brand new potential hackerspace.
[03:51.730 --> 03:55.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'd like for Maxim to tell us something about that.
[03:55.290 --> 03:57.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: But first, I want to make sure that you guys are hearing us.
[03:57.490 --> 03:59.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're still hearing you for now.
[04:00.030 --> 04:00.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, great.
[04:00.670 --> 04:01.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maxim, take it away.
[04:01.530 --> 04:04.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tell us something about who these people are and where they were meeting.
[04:04.430 --> 04:05.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[04:05.810 --> 04:12.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, so the Chaos Computer Club in Zurich, as a club, exists about since 2007.
[04:13.490 --> 04:17.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: They had their places where they meet outside of Zurich so far.
[04:18.090 --> 04:28.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: And like Emmanuel said, tonight was the very first time they're meeting in this place from a different organization called Revamp It.
[04:28.410 --> 04:33.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, Revamp It has been there for about two to three months in downtown Zurich.
[04:34.330 --> 04:37.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what they do is they recycle computers.
[04:37.470 --> 04:40.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: So when we went in there, it was quite an impression.
[04:40.890 --> 04:43.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: There were tons of PCs.
[04:43.350 --> 04:44.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, my God.
[04:44.310 --> 04:45.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, it was unbelievable.
[04:45.470 --> 04:51.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: We walked in and there were all these people having a very animated conversation.
[04:51.410 --> 04:52.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: We could barely get in the door.
[04:53.110 --> 04:58.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was a fairly small room with a dozen or so people hanging out there.
[04:58.870 --> 05:04.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then we went through another door and there was a huge room with computers stacked all over the place.
[05:05.090 --> 05:07.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then we went all the way to the back of that room.
[05:07.310 --> 05:07.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And guess what?
[05:07.870 --> 05:10.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: In back of that room was another huge room with computers.
[05:10.690 --> 05:14.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was like being in Home Depot with computers stacked up to the ceiling that high.
[05:14.310 --> 05:17.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we're talking really old machines.
[05:19.970 --> 05:22.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of machines did you see, Kyle?
[05:22.410 --> 05:24.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Really old things.
[05:24.630 --> 05:37.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: IMAXs and all kinds of desktop towers and weird ones that you'd never see before, like little terminals, like Siemens terminals and Mac stuff.
[05:37.810 --> 05:47.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: They had a whole wall of toner cartridges still in the boxes and a bunch of laser printers stacked up in the middle of the room and just all kinds of stuff.
[05:47.630 --> 05:54.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they say that it took them a few weeks to move all this into this facility, which seems incredible in and of itself.
[05:54.370 --> 06:01.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what they're doing is they're accepting all these old computers as donations from corporations, from people.
[06:01.890 --> 06:13.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're fixing them, they're putting open-source software onto them, and then they're sending them to all kinds of third world places where there are people there that are actually going to use them, not throw them into a landfill or anything like that.
[06:14.210 --> 06:23.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was real history seeing this, seeing this place in the making, and very fortuitous for us to be in Zurich at just that moment.
[06:26.310 --> 06:27.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: So why are you in Zurich anyway?
[06:29.170 --> 06:30.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why are we in Zurich anyway?
[06:30.830 --> 06:39.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we were at the CCC Congress in Berlin last week when we spoke to you on Off The Hook.
[06:39.630 --> 06:42.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: And since then, we had New Year's happen over here.
[06:43.150 --> 06:46.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then after that, we decided we must go someplace else.
[06:46.510 --> 06:50.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we basically decided that Switzerland was an interesting place to go to.
[06:50.630 --> 06:56.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we weren't mistaken on that because we've been wandering around this town for the last few days.
[06:56.150 --> 07:02.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And seeing these people tonight and learning a whole lot about Switzerland in the process.
[07:02.490 --> 07:06.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: The country is right smack in the middle of Europe that's not part of the EU.
[07:06.510 --> 07:10.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: That only joined the United Nations a few years ago.
[07:10.910 --> 07:17.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: That has all kinds of interesting customs and habits and a whole lot of trains.
[07:19.430 --> 07:22.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, Switzerland makes Germany look inefficient.
[07:23.230 --> 07:29.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: We arrived very late at night on Sunday and had to figure out how to take a tram a great distance.
[07:29.410 --> 07:33.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was so simple to learn the system.
[07:33.950 --> 07:46.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, you're on a tram and there's a video display inside that tells you what the next stop is, what other trams will be at that stop, what time those other trams are expected to be there, and where they go.
[07:47.450 --> 07:50.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's really impossible to get lost or to get confused.
[07:50.430 --> 07:54.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I'm very impressed with the place on that level alone.
[07:54.550 --> 08:01.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there are so many other things to talk about insofar as what Switzerland is all about, which I don't think we're going to have time for.
[08:01.810 --> 08:03.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's an amazing place.
[08:03.450 --> 08:04.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's fascinating.
[08:04.650 --> 08:10.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just seeing the hacker culture start growing here as well, I think, is really fascinating.
[08:10.470 --> 08:18.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, Maxim here, by the way, was part of Chaos Computer Club in Zurich back in 1985.
[08:19.070 --> 08:21.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you want to tell us something about those years?
[08:21.310 --> 08:25.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, back those years, there weren't that many hackers around, or at least not that many that we knew.
[08:26.190 --> 08:28.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: We were probably around five or six people.
[08:29.070 --> 08:32.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, we didn't have Internet.
[08:32.050 --> 08:37.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: We had BBSs and X-25 or Telepack or Timnet or DataXP or whatever it was called.
[08:39.090 --> 08:40.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: And hung around those networks.
[08:41.330 --> 08:43.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: However, some of those people then left.
[08:43.510 --> 08:45.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, all of a sudden, we were only two people left.
[08:45.930 --> 08:47.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: And two people, you can't be a club anymore.
[08:47.790 --> 08:49.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it kind of dissolved.
[08:49.930 --> 08:55.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: And tonight, when I was talking to the people from the Chaos Computer Club in Zurich, that was very cool.
[08:55.550 --> 08:59.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: They were talking about what should they call the club.
[09:00.030 --> 09:04.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: And somebody said, yeah, let's call it CCCCH, because that's Chaos Computer Club, Switzerland.
[09:05.350 --> 09:07.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they did some research on the Internet.
[09:07.210 --> 09:12.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And somewhere, they found the files and the reference to our old club that we used to have.
[09:12.130 --> 09:15.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I'm going to go on the Internet later and see if I can find that.
[09:18.430 --> 09:20.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's sort of a rebirth.
[09:22.570 --> 09:23.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it is.
[09:23.730 --> 09:27.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a lot of things happening pretty much at the same time.
[09:27.350 --> 09:29.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: People being in the right place at the right time.
[09:29.430 --> 09:34.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think it's really cool that they were looking for this older generation.
[09:34.750 --> 09:37.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you were able to connect up with them.
[09:38.030 --> 09:42.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, I don't know, and say, hey, I was from the original group.
[09:42.590 --> 09:47.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so now this is like the inaugural meeting night.
[09:47.330 --> 09:49.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're going to be meeting midweek on Wednesdays.
[09:49.950 --> 09:51.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so I guess you're going to be going back.
[09:52.070 --> 09:52.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Absolutely.
[09:52.470 --> 09:54.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: I already said I'll be back there next week.
[09:54.430 --> 09:58.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: I also know still people from that old CCC.
[09:58.570 --> 10:00.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I'm definitely going to try to bring those people along.
[10:00.810 --> 10:03.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know they don't live in Zurich, so it might be a little more difficult.
[10:03.410 --> 10:05.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: But we'll definitely be back there.
[10:05.730 --> 10:07.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, yeah, it was a lot of fun there.
[10:07.210 --> 10:11.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was also a Pirate Party meeting here in Zurich tonight, which we weren't able to get to.
[10:12.290 --> 10:19.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that's a fairly new development in Switzerland and something that's spreading throughout Europe, which I think is pretty cool.
[10:19.330 --> 10:21.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we hope to have those people on the show at some point as well.
[10:22.170 --> 10:23.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have a question about the...
[10:23.930 --> 10:24.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Am I on?
[10:24.930 --> 10:25.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[10:25.590 --> 10:27.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: A question about sort of focus.
[10:27.530 --> 10:36.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: I know a lot of times when people come to 2600 meetings in New York, they're kind of surprised that there's sort of less actual hands-on code stuff and a lot more sort of social and political organizing.
[10:37.070 --> 10:39.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's the focus of the group in Switzerland?
[10:40.750 --> 10:43.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was kind of the same thing, just like you said.
[10:43.470 --> 10:49.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, you know, you did see people sit in front of computers, but that's because there were computers everywhere, right?
[10:49.850 --> 10:59.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they were really more socializing, talking about the revamp stuff, talking about the Chaos Computer Club itself and how this should be going on.
[10:59.770 --> 11:04.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, it was really exciting that this was the very first night at that new place.
[11:04.410 --> 11:06.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I guess that was the topic du jour.
[11:06.910 --> 11:20.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, you know, even like I'm involved in the Pirate Party, you know, in the Pirate Party, it is more about politics, net and digital politics, as opposed to hands-on computer stuff.
[11:20.230 --> 11:25.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: And how has the reaction been from people when you're starting this out and trying to gauge interest in it?
[11:27.890 --> 11:28.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: I didn't hear that.
[11:29.010 --> 11:29.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can you repeat that?
[11:30.030 --> 11:30.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm sorry.
[11:30.450 --> 11:36.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: What has the reaction from people been like just in general when you're starting something like this up in a place that's not had it before?
[11:40.490 --> 11:42.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I think people are open to that.
[11:43.590 --> 11:52.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not, you know, it's not like it's something unheard of, but, well, definitely the computer recycling, that's something that people appreciate.
[11:52.950 --> 12:00.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: And especially in that area we were at in Zurich, there's a lot of like artist meets and stuff going on.
[12:00.230 --> 12:02.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, there was a theater in the same building, right?
[12:03.630 --> 12:05.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: A theater with your name on it, too, by the way.
[12:05.990 --> 12:07.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Maxim Theater.
[12:07.290 --> 12:07.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: That was kind of weird.
[12:08.130 --> 12:09.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was kind of weird.
[12:09.490 --> 12:10.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: We knew we were in the right place.
[12:10.650 --> 12:11.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was a huge building, too.
[12:12.030 --> 12:18.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, a huge courtyard, I think a six-story building filled with all kinds of activities, hackerspace being just one of them.
[12:18.730 --> 12:21.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and I think it just totally fit into that whole area.
[12:21.650 --> 12:28.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's in a mixed-use, like old industrial building that's being sort of remodeled.
[12:28.550 --> 12:36.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, I don't know, the energy was really, really good in the space with Revamp doing their work.
[12:36.370 --> 12:52.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then the fact that they're moving in, and so they've got all this stuff, it made it so that there was very, very little room to move around, but it ended up being really good because everybody was sort of brushing shoulders with somebody else and socializing and talking.
[12:52.270 --> 12:55.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: You sort of had to say, hey, hi, what's your name?
[12:55.770 --> 12:57.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because you're standing right next to them.
[12:57.370 --> 12:59.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's like literally standing room only.
[12:59.270 --> 13:01.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it was a really cool kickoff.
[13:01.610 --> 13:02.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know.
[13:02.850 --> 13:05.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it was a lot of fun, the whole thing.
[13:05.010 --> 13:07.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Kyle and I have been wandering around.
[13:07.990 --> 13:15.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: As you know, we've been in Scandinavia before, into Norway and Sweden and Denmark, and then into Germany and now Switzerland.
[13:15.730 --> 13:18.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, yesterday we went to a country we never went to before.
[13:18.250 --> 13:20.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, boy, that was an incredible experience.
[13:20.570 --> 13:33.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: We just basically took a day trip and wandered over there and met with some of the people, talked as much as we could, tried to talk about America and learn about their land and what it was all about.
[13:33.950 --> 13:39.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Very picturesque, very nice, a little colder than it is here in Switzerland.
[13:39.130 --> 13:40.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: What country are we talking about?
[13:40.970 --> 13:41.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Liechtenstein?
[13:41.730 --> 13:42.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Luxembourg?
[13:42.210 --> 13:43.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, is it, what, Monaco?
[13:43.610 --> 13:44.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are we talking here?
[13:44.510 --> 13:46.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sounds like a very good place you haven't been before, right?
[13:47.510 --> 13:48.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, no, we've never been there before.
[13:49.010 --> 13:49.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was really pretty fascinating.
[13:49.850 --> 13:50.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: But what country was this?
[13:52.110 --> 13:56.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: They had a very loud church bell at one point, which I thought was very interesting.
[13:56.230 --> 13:58.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not much in the way of food.
[13:58.690 --> 13:59.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is he having me on?
[14:00.090 --> 14:01.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's he talking about?
[14:02.310 --> 14:04.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Am I out of the loop on something here?
[14:04.290 --> 14:04.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry?
[14:05.310 --> 14:06.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: What country?
[14:06.510 --> 14:08.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think you're out of the loop.
[14:08.430 --> 14:10.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just, well, I mean, not everybody gets to go there, obviously.
[14:11.370 --> 14:15.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's kind of like, not a privilege so much, but just something that you have to kind of work at.
[14:16.670 --> 14:19.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I'm sure you could go there if you wanted to.
[14:19.330 --> 14:21.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not forbidden or anything like that.
[14:22.430 --> 14:25.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, you know, Kyle and I, do you have any comments on it, Kyle?
[14:25.410 --> 14:27.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because I was pretty amazed by it.
[14:27.910 --> 14:29.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was really neat.
[14:29.310 --> 14:36.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was sort of a small town, but also, you know, its own sort of independent place.
[14:36.170 --> 14:36.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Big city, too.
[14:37.170 --> 14:37.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[14:38.230 --> 14:40.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Country and urban is kind of, yeah.
[14:40.630 --> 14:43.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of the architecture is very modern, but it's...
[14:43.610 --> 14:45.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: But there's history, a lot of history.
[14:45.430 --> 14:45.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[14:45.850 --> 14:49.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I would recommend it to anybody listening to definitely go there.
[14:49.630 --> 14:51.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It would be worth your while.
[14:51.970 --> 14:56.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you talking about some state of mind you entered by some chemicals or something?
[14:58.350 --> 15:00.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is this the state of my imagination?
[15:01.130 --> 15:01.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh.
[15:02.210 --> 15:02.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: No?
[15:03.490 --> 15:04.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's the name of the country?
[15:06.890 --> 15:07.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you, Bernie.
[15:09.210 --> 15:09.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hi, Bernie.
[15:09.870 --> 15:10.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: How are you doing?
[15:10.330 --> 15:10.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: Where are you?
[15:11.370 --> 15:12.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm in Philadelphia.
[15:12.370 --> 15:14.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm asking, what's the name of the country you're describing?
[15:16.130 --> 15:17.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Philadelphia, it's in the United States.
[15:18.150 --> 15:18.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you okay?
[15:19.470 --> 15:23.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: Country, you were asking, you were just describing, what is the name of that country?
[15:26.170 --> 15:27.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Boys, I don't understand him.
[15:29.070 --> 15:36.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, no, we did have, if you're asking what other countries we've been to, they said we've been to Scandinavia and Germany.
[15:36.670 --> 15:47.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, on the subject of Germany, since apparently that's what you wanted to talk about, we had an adventure with a cell phone, a cell phone provider, and we'd be happy to discuss that.
[15:48.450 --> 15:51.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, we want you to discuss the name of the country you were just describing.
[15:53.650 --> 15:54.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[15:54.270 --> 15:55.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, we can talk about that then.
[15:56.630 --> 16:03.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, what happened was, we went to Germany and stopped in Hamburg on the way from Denmark.
[16:03.910 --> 16:09.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: By the way, Bernie, we took that boat train that we were discussing a few weeks ago, and it was very nice.
[16:09.910 --> 16:12.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: The train actually went onto the boat, and we took that.
[16:13.230 --> 16:28.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: And once we got to Hamburg, we had a bit of a layover, so we said, hey, wouldn't it be a good idea if we bought a SIM card for our phones, so that we can make phone calls back to the United States or throughout Germany, and basically not have to worry about racking up a huge bill on our American phones.
[16:28.650 --> 16:34.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we went to this store, and I'm going to say the name of the store, because I think people should know the name of the store.
[16:35.010 --> 16:36.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: The store is named Rossman's.
[16:37.070 --> 16:41.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we went to Rossman's, and we asked a very nice gentleman there.
[16:41.690 --> 16:42.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Emmanuel?
[16:42.690 --> 16:43.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry?
[16:43.870 --> 16:45.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Isn't Rossman's like a drugstore?
[16:46.590 --> 16:49.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's sort of like a supermarket drugstore type of a thing, yeah.
[16:49.690 --> 16:53.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's very important when you're telling these stories to tell the names of things.
[16:53.490 --> 16:56.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what I'm trying to do here, is identify everything that we've gone through.
[16:56.750 --> 17:00.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: So forgive me if I'm being too specific on anything that we're talking about.
[17:00.290 --> 17:00.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, no.
[17:01.990 --> 17:03.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Specificity is never a problem on this show.
[17:03.970 --> 17:04.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good, okay.
[17:04.850 --> 17:06.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because I want to make sure that we're absolutely clear.
[17:07.070 --> 17:11.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: So the store that we walked into in Hamburg, which is in Germany, was Rossman's.
[17:12.290 --> 17:17.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what we did was, we walked up to, I believe Carl was the gentleman's name.
[17:18.110 --> 17:19.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't get his last name.
[17:19.390 --> 17:24.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: He told us the best deal was this company called Phonic.
[17:24.030 --> 17:25.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's F-O-N-I-C.
[17:26.450 --> 17:28.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he explained how it worked.
[17:28.690 --> 17:34.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: He had sold us the SIM cards for 9.99 each, 9 euros, 99 cents each.
[17:34.990 --> 17:39.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he told us it was very simple to activate and no problems whatsoever.
[17:39.550 --> 17:43.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we wound up basically trying to get the things to work.
[17:43.550 --> 17:44.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: We opened up the package.
[17:44.890 --> 17:46.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: And not a word of English.
[17:46.510 --> 17:47.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, of course, we're in Germany.
[17:47.990 --> 17:49.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, we should speak German.
[17:49.310 --> 17:52.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the guy who spoke English to us, he knew that we didn't speak any German.
[17:52.710 --> 17:54.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: He sold this thing to us.
[17:54.790 --> 17:59.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there was absolutely no way to understand how to activate the thing just by looking at the instructions.
[17:59.750 --> 18:00.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was absolutely nothing there.
[18:01.110 --> 18:03.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And plugging the SIM in didn't seem to work either.
[18:03.210 --> 18:03.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was no signal.
[18:04.250 --> 18:13.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: So what we did was we waited until we got to Berlin and then tried to activate it online, tried to call the number that was affiliated with it.
[18:13.130 --> 18:14.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Neither of those things worked.
[18:14.310 --> 18:17.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: So the next day, we went to an O2 store.
[18:17.950 --> 18:19.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: O2 happens to own Phonic.
[18:19.650 --> 18:20.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's their discount service.
[18:21.030 --> 18:23.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: They would not help us at all.
[18:23.290 --> 18:24.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: They said, nope, it's not our company.
[18:25.310 --> 18:26.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: We can't do a thing for you.
[18:27.090 --> 18:29.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And all we were trying to do was find out, how do we activate the damn thing?
[18:30.050 --> 18:33.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: We went to another Rossman's, which was in Berlin.
[18:33.670 --> 18:35.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we said, you know, here's the receipt.
[18:35.890 --> 18:36.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: We bought this from you.
[18:36.850 --> 18:38.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: How do we turn this thing on?
[18:38.390 --> 18:40.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Would not even answer any questions.
[18:40.890 --> 18:49.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Americans would not entertain the notion of getting a refund for this thing since they sold us a product that apparently doesn't work or is incomprehensible to us.
[18:49.570 --> 18:57.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was very perturbing just to be treated that way and to realize that in America, you know, the customer is always right even when they're wrong.
[18:57.950 --> 19:01.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in Germany, the customer really isn't treated very well many times.
[19:03.350 --> 19:10.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Eventually, we wound up making a phone call from a payphone, which lasted about 45 minutes, to somebody at the helpline.
[19:11.070 --> 19:13.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: We hit random numbers until we found a person.
[19:13.250 --> 19:16.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that person, whose name was Herman, I believe, right?
[19:16.470 --> 19:18.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: He was in some part of Germany.
[19:18.110 --> 19:20.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he was the only person in the whole call center that spoke any English.
[19:21.330 --> 19:22.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: He was able to help us.
[19:22.570 --> 19:24.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we had to give him a German address.
[19:24.530 --> 19:32.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's another thing that Carl in Hamburg at the Rossmanns there, when he sold us the phonic card, didn't tell us, that he needed to have a German address.
[19:32.770 --> 19:42.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: We had to actually run inside a post office, get the postal code for the BCC, the Berlin Conference Center, which is where the conference was being held.
[19:42.950 --> 19:47.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the address we gave, because that's where we were spending the most time in Berlin, at the conference center.
[19:47.390 --> 19:49.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we gave that address, but we had to get the right postal code.
[19:49.870 --> 19:55.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we had to run into a post office to find out what the postal code was for that, because we couldn't just give them a random one.
[19:55.810 --> 19:56.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: They checked.
[19:57.030 --> 19:59.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: So after 45 minutes, we got the thing to work.
[19:59.130 --> 20:01.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: But boy, that was not a pleasant experience.
[20:02.950 --> 20:04.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: So now, New Year's in Germany.
[20:04.830 --> 20:09.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: I imagine that was sort of a low-key, very subdued sort of event.
[20:09.930 --> 20:10.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[20:10.570 --> 20:17.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, if you imagine tens of thousands of people lighting fireworks at the same time as being low-key, that's exactly what it was.
[20:17.390 --> 20:24.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: We actually found ourselves at Brandenburg Gate, because the party we were supposed to go to apparently wasn't actually happening.
[20:24.990 --> 20:29.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we just sort of wandered around, and it was actually quite nice.
[20:29.050 --> 20:38.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: It wasn't like Times Square, where it's so completely packed and mobbed, and there's overabundance of security and a police state atmosphere.
[20:39.050 --> 20:44.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: We got frisked once, I think, and had to go through two checkpoints.
[20:44.990 --> 20:47.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: But once we were through that, it was pretty smooth sailing.
[20:47.690 --> 20:55.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we just hung around until midnight when all these fireworks went off, and people were drinking all kinds of substances, and fireworks were going off everywhere.
[20:56.630 --> 20:57.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: So it was funny.
[20:57.790 --> 21:02.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've been in Germany many times for New Year's now, and you get used to it after a while.
[21:03.590 --> 21:08.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's really not like the States, but it's fun anywhere you go.
[21:08.350 --> 21:10.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I imagine you guys had fun in New York.
[21:11.770 --> 21:12.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, yeah, lots of fun.
[21:12.910 --> 21:18.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: Around 2 a.m., I attempted to go to Times Square just to get a look at the crowds and everything.
[21:18.330 --> 21:19.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: I told you not to do that.
[21:20.030 --> 21:25.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, I was curious, but I was told Times Square was closed, and they let me in.
[21:25.930 --> 21:26.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: Really?
[21:26.390 --> 21:27.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: They do that now.
[21:27.550 --> 21:29.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: Times Square was closed due to people, yeah.
[21:29.150 --> 21:30.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: They won't show you that on TV.
[21:30.470 --> 21:31.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can we make it permanently closed?
[21:32.430 --> 21:33.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: That would be awesome.
[21:33.250 --> 21:34.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: But then how would people get to the Disney store then?
[21:35.210 --> 21:35.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, no.
[21:35.610 --> 21:37.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: They could stay in their home suburbs.
[21:37.430 --> 21:38.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: What a loss.
[21:38.050 --> 21:38.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Go there.
[21:38.650 --> 21:39.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: It would work out just fine.
[21:40.550 --> 21:46.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, for all of those of you not in New York or any place where there's no huge celebration, I'm from Pasadena originally, where we have the Rose Parade.
[21:48.370 --> 21:54.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, I mean, the big thing to do as a kid is to camp out on the route, and people lick marshmallows and throw them at you in the middle of the night.
[21:54.130 --> 21:58.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: So you basically wake up at eye level with the horses that are pooing on the parade route and, like, sticky marshmallows in your hair.
[21:59.070 --> 22:03.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's one of these things that you really look forward to as a teenager, but as a grown-up, you're just like, I don't need to do that anymore.
[22:03.990 --> 22:05.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: And Times Square is kind of the same way.
[22:05.430 --> 22:06.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: So don't be jealous.
[22:06.670 --> 22:07.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's not worth it.
[22:08.650 --> 22:09.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, Times Square is not.
[22:09.850 --> 22:11.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: I never wanted to do that.
[22:12.790 --> 22:13.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm jealous of Germany, though.
[22:13.910 --> 22:14.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: It sounds like a good time.
[22:16.030 --> 22:16.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was fun.
[22:16.930 --> 22:17.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was interesting.
[22:18.290 --> 22:24.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I suggest people check out other scenes on New Year's and other holidays, too, because you learn a lot.
[22:24.270 --> 22:26.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tomorrow, actually, is a holiday here in Switzerland.
[22:27.190 --> 22:28.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maxim, what's it called?
[22:28.730 --> 22:30.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: You get a special cake.
[22:30.510 --> 22:34.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's like that cake you get in New Orleans that has the baby in it.
[22:34.510 --> 22:35.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what I'm talking about?
[22:36.190 --> 22:38.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was about to say, is it the cake with the baby in it?
[22:39.390 --> 22:40.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah, you got it.
[22:40.730 --> 22:41.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's exactly what it is.
[22:41.590 --> 22:47.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: You basically, there's some kind of cake and you, inside it is a little doll or something.
[22:48.050 --> 22:51.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you get the piece that has a baby in it, then you win something.
[22:51.330 --> 22:53.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Here in Switzerland, there's something very similar.
[22:53.490 --> 22:55.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a three kings holiday.
[22:55.450 --> 22:56.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have a cake.
[22:56.810 --> 23:00.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the cake has like a little king baked into it.
[23:00.350 --> 23:05.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And whoever has the piece with the king inside gets to wear the crown all day.
[23:05.250 --> 23:07.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's a little paper crown, apparently, that comes with it.
[23:07.650 --> 23:14.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: So tomorrow, January 6th, some kids in Switzerland will be wandering around with little paper crowns.
[23:14.110 --> 23:16.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And others will be very angry for not getting that.
[23:16.050 --> 23:21.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And how much dentistry is involved after this, after somebody's bit into the little baby or king or whatever?
[23:22.290 --> 23:24.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you have to tread carefully there.
[23:24.490 --> 23:26.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't want to choke on the king, obviously.
[23:26.710 --> 23:28.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's disrespectful, in addition to being dangerous.
[23:29.590 --> 23:33.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: Speaking of special events, there's one happening today, which I thought was kind of neat.
[23:33.950 --> 23:39.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: Today happens to be the 71st anniversary of FM network radio.
[23:39.670 --> 23:40.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, yes.
[23:40.470 --> 23:43.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, Bernie, I know you know a little something about this.
[23:44.390 --> 23:46.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, Mr. Armstrong, you're speaking of.
[23:46.930 --> 23:47.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, indeed.
[23:48.090 --> 23:48.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, yeah.
[23:49.090 --> 23:50.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I guess, was it 71 years ago today?
[23:51.110 --> 23:54.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was, yes, 71 years ago, January 5th, 1940.
[23:55.050 --> 23:55.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's Dr. Armstrong.
[23:55.950 --> 23:56.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was a professor at Columbia.
[23:57.210 --> 23:58.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: Also Major Armstrong.
[23:58.410 --> 23:58.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Major, yes.
[23:59.110 --> 23:59.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes.
[23:59.710 --> 24:02.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, well, he invented frequency modulation.
[24:02.330 --> 24:23.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: When amplitude modulation was the standard form of radio broadcasting, he figured out the frequency modulation enabled all kinds of other things, which is used not only for radio to this day on this very station, but is used for television and all kinds of other modulation,
[24:23.910 --> 24:25.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: cellular phones.
[24:25.390 --> 24:32.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: And FM became a major technology of importance.
[24:32.570 --> 24:44.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: But he also developed, Armstrong developed other radio technologies like the regenerative receiver, the super regenerative receiver, and the heterodine and super heterodine receivers.
[24:44.530 --> 24:46.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: So this guy invented all kinds of radio stuff.
[24:47.090 --> 24:53.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: And unfortunately, a lot of his ideas were stolen by Mr. Sarnoff at RCA.
[24:55.070 --> 25:01.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: And in ensuing patent battles, the guy just went nuts and killed himself.
[25:01.270 --> 25:04.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it was really a really tragic story.
[25:04.890 --> 25:06.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: But Armstrong was a true hacker.
[25:06.970 --> 25:12.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: He enjoyed the joy of figuring stuff out and showing people things.
[25:12.030 --> 25:19.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: He liked to climb these tall radio towers that he'd build and dance on top of the radio towers just to show off.
[25:20.370 --> 25:32.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: He was quite a character, but a major figure in that technology that we owe this very radio station's existence to from a standpoint of FM, frequency modulation.
[25:33.010 --> 25:35.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: So Armstrong was the guy.
[25:35.610 --> 25:39.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: So is it true that 71 years ago, is it?
[25:39.910 --> 25:40.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, indeed.
[25:40.370 --> 25:44.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: 71 years ago, the first FM station went on the air?
[25:44.470 --> 25:53.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: The first FM network simulcast, it was Major Armstrong himself was working with the Yankee Network, which was a group of affiliated radio stations through the New England area.
[25:54.230 --> 26:01.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: And this was the first time they were able to use FM to distribute the signal simultaneously between five different cities.
[26:01.850 --> 26:04.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: And this was, of course, a major deal back then.
[26:04.690 --> 26:11.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Armstrong afterward went on record as saying, Boston observers report the program went into that city with tonal quality never before heard.
[26:11.590 --> 26:15.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: And the operators atop Mount Washington reported it clear as next door.
[26:15.230 --> 26:18.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: The broadcast went from Yonkers to Mount Washington without using an inch of wire.
[26:18.790 --> 26:19.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Imagine that.
[26:20.250 --> 26:20.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Imagine.
[26:21.150 --> 26:24.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's one of those things we really take for granted now, you know, with wireless everything.
[26:24.870 --> 26:28.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: How do they not use an inch of wire in the antenna itself?
[26:28.390 --> 26:29.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't you need some wire?
[26:30.850 --> 26:33.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah, you would have ruined the whole thing for them back then.
[26:34.830 --> 26:36.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good thing for us all I wasn't around.
[26:39.390 --> 26:39.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[26:40.010 --> 26:44.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, hey, can we speak about some other new technology or just new ways of doing things?
[26:44.850 --> 26:47.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm still waiting to hear what city you were in.
[26:47.750 --> 26:48.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're in Zurich.
[26:49.330 --> 26:50.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're in Zurich.
[26:50.030 --> 26:50.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're in Zurich.
[26:50.250 --> 26:50.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Calm down.
[26:50.790 --> 26:51.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're fine.
[26:52.110 --> 26:53.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, new technology.
[26:54.650 --> 26:57.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Boy, back there in New York, they really are dramatic.
[26:58.370 --> 27:00.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, we have some new technology.
[27:01.490 --> 27:03.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's kind of new, I think.
[27:03.390 --> 27:05.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maxim, you've been working with us for a while.
[27:06.270 --> 27:11.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tonight, he showed us something that looks like a SIM card, but it's much thinner than a SIM card.
[27:11.810 --> 27:15.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what you do is you put it in your phone next to your SIM card.
[27:16.170 --> 27:18.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, Maxim, tell us, what does this thing do?
[27:18.490 --> 27:18.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[27:18.750 --> 27:28.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, if you search for SIM dialers, you can find it, like Manuel just said, it's a very thin SIM card that goes in between the SIM card and your phone.
[27:28.850 --> 27:34.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: And one thing it does, first of all, you can put in any SIM card into a locked phone, which is nice.
[27:34.950 --> 27:37.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, if you have a locked phone, you don't even need to unlock it.
[27:37.830 --> 27:42.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: You just put that SIM card in between and use whatever SIM card you want.
[27:42.430 --> 28:01.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: However, what it also does is it can intercept the calls that you're making and dial them through, like a dial-through number or a calling card service or a call-back service or, you know, even whatever, even your home asterisk box.
[28:01.770 --> 28:10.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, basically, you put this thing in your phone, you turn your phone on, and you get a whole different menu that allows you to make all these settings.
[28:10.650 --> 28:17.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, basically, I mean, the coolest thing is that you can put a SIM in your phone, and even if your phone is locked, it'll work.
[28:17.410 --> 28:24.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that, believe me, is a major pain when people are traveling to have a locked phone and not be able to use a SIM from a different country.
[28:25.670 --> 28:26.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[28:26.070 --> 28:37.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, this is really a computer that interfaces between your cell phone and between your mobile phone and your SIM card, or any SIM card.
[28:37.450 --> 28:39.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it does a lot of stuff in between.
[28:39.610 --> 28:40.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's a brilliant idea.
[28:40.770 --> 28:45.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they've made it small and thin enough to sandwich in between your SIM card and your phone.
[28:45.970 --> 28:46.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[28:46.470 --> 28:51.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: At the worst, you have to, like, clip your little SIM card a little, because it does have a really small chip on it.
[28:51.790 --> 28:55.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you know how the SIM card has a little dent on one of the edges?
[28:55.810 --> 29:03.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: You just clip off a little more of that, and you have enough space for the chip on that little plastic SIM card.
[29:03.910 --> 29:04.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[29:04.230 --> 29:07.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: What is this thing called, and how can our listeners find out more about it?
[29:07.390 --> 29:09.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, it's called a SIM dialer.
[29:10.430 --> 29:14.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can search for it on the network, and you will find it.
[29:16.890 --> 29:17.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: A SIM dialer?
[29:18.370 --> 29:18.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[29:19.150 --> 29:22.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is it put out by one particular company, or is it available?
[29:22.390 --> 29:23.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, is it a generic company?
[29:23.090 --> 29:26.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, there are several manufacturers that do that.
[29:26.350 --> 29:29.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Most of them, at least the ones that I've played with, they're all made in China.
[29:30.510 --> 29:35.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: Are there any SIM dialers that have been developed by hackers to do really interesting things?
[29:36.790 --> 29:38.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, what would you like one to be able to do?
[29:38.370 --> 29:40.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure people will be able to develop those.
[29:41.450 --> 29:43.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, the mind boggles.
[29:43.430 --> 29:49.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, if you could get a computer in between your SIM card and your phone, there's all kinds of things that could be done.
[29:49.790 --> 29:55.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: It sounds like a great opportunity for people to explore cell phone technology.
[29:55.750 --> 30:03.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I would like to see a hackable SIM dialer tip or kit available soon.
[30:03.290 --> 30:06.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: It sounds like a great way to customize your cell phone.
[30:08.150 --> 30:10.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, any way to enhance this platform, yeah.
[30:10.390 --> 30:11.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: These things, how much do they cost, Maxim?
[30:12.050 --> 30:16.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, if you're in China, they'll be like two bucks each, right?
[30:17.430 --> 30:21.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you find them on the Internet, they'll probably be selling around $12 or $15.
[30:22.590 --> 30:37.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you mentioned that if you're going to buy it at like $2 at cost, that you'd have to buy it in bulk, like a group buy, which is pretty common in a lot of hacker spaces when they're buying, you know, technology, they'll do like a group buy.
[30:39.330 --> 30:42.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: It is individually sold for quite a bit more.
[30:42.490 --> 30:59.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I guess it would be interesting, like Bernie mentioned, to maybe create an open design or our own design with maybe different capabilities or additional capabilities and have it be something that's available for less, either domestically or otherwise,
[30:59.170 --> 31:02.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: to reduce the cost and maybe have some other features.
[31:03.750 --> 31:07.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, a lot of spaces, a lot of hackers around the U.S.
[31:07.450 --> 31:07.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: are...
[31:07.810 --> 31:09.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: and around the world, but in the U.S.
[31:09.430 --> 31:11.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: are making their own boards and that kind of stuff.
[31:11.710 --> 31:14.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, it's definitely ripe for hacking.
[31:14.930 --> 31:15.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Very cool.
[31:15.890 --> 31:16.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Absolutely.
[31:16.510 --> 31:19.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think with the... and with the chip, like Bernie said, the sky's the limit.
[31:20.650 --> 31:27.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, it's always struck me that mobile phones are some of the... are one of the most ubiquitous platforms that are the least hackable out there.
[31:27.490 --> 31:32.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: And so, anything that sort of opens that up for people to have some fun with, I think, is a good thing.
[31:34.350 --> 31:37.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, let's hope nobody gets prosecuted in the U.S.
[31:37.970 --> 31:47.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: for possessing a SIM dialer because it's probably... it's probably illegal because it's not specifically authorized by the wireless carriers.
[31:47.490 --> 31:51.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, you know, if enough people do it, then the cat's out of the bag.
[31:52.350 --> 31:54.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I'll happily walk around with one of those things.
[31:54.790 --> 31:56.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you pay your phone bill.
[31:57.250 --> 31:58.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't see what they can say.
[31:58.570 --> 31:59.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's your phone.
[32:00.450 --> 32:02.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's... you can do whatever you want with it.
[32:02.490 --> 32:04.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I'm sure somebody will have a different interpretation.
[32:05.330 --> 32:05.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[32:06.610 --> 32:13.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it's interesting to me, considering that jailbreaking your iPhone is now okay and there's a number of DRM things that we won this year.
[32:13.310 --> 32:22.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or going forward, are we just going to see the same old reactions where the first response is shut this down or are we going to start seeing stuff where people actually go, let's let that cat out of the bag?
[32:22.750 --> 32:23.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why am I even hoping?
[32:24.090 --> 32:25.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is probably ridiculous.
[32:25.830 --> 32:27.470]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, it probably is very ridiculous.
[32:28.330 --> 32:45.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: On the subject of cell phones, I saw a story out of California that was forwarded to us, which has to do with a California Supreme Court ruling a couple of days ago saying, cops don't need a warrant to search your cell phone if you're arrested.
[32:45.490 --> 32:57.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: In other words, they can go through your entire cell phone, read all of your messages, look at all your contacts, get all the phone numbers, whatever else is on your cell phone, and God forbid it's a smartphone.
[32:58.730 --> 33:00.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is significant, isn't it?
[33:00.930 --> 33:05.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I mean, it sounded to me like something that would be particularly bad in catch-and-release arrests.
[33:05.930 --> 33:07.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, they'll just go trolling.
[33:07.350 --> 33:10.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: They'll basically sort of say, oh, yeah, let's just pick this guy up, see what he's got on his phone, see what we can charge him with.
[33:11.150 --> 33:21.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, what the California Supreme Court actually decided was that the loss of privacy upon arrest extends beyond the arrestee's own body to include personal property, so they can look through your phone, they can look through whatever you've got on you.
[33:21.630 --> 33:35.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it's interesting that the Ninth Circuit, which is where California is, decided this, but that contradicts a different federal circuit's decision on the same topic.
[33:36.270 --> 33:38.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: So now you have two different federal circuits in the U.S.
[33:38.930 --> 33:44.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: that have basically come to a different conclusion about what's constitutional and what isn't.
[33:44.210 --> 33:49.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bernie, just to clarify, this is not a circuit court, this is not a federal court, this is the California State Supreme Court.
[33:49.670 --> 33:50.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, okay, good, good.
[33:50.670 --> 33:55.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, then, this is contradicting what another federal court had ruled in a different circuit.
[33:56.250 --> 33:56.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: Pardon me.
[33:57.470 --> 34:11.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: So this is probably going to be challenged, and I'm hoping this goes to the Supreme Court and things get ruled that, you know, this is protected by the Fourth Amendment, that you can't have your cell phone searched without consent or probable cause.
[34:11.570 --> 34:22.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it's a scary thing, because as Gus pointed out, police could just sort of arrest you temporarily and then release you after going through your cell phone, and that would be really bad.
[34:23.290 --> 34:26.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: This also, I think it has implications beyond just cell phones.
[34:26.350 --> 34:32.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you're carrying a laptop with you, they can now, I guess, based on this, look through your laptop and examine that as much as they want.
[34:34.030 --> 34:36.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, now, what if you have a password on your phone?
[34:36.710 --> 34:41.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, we have cell phones that have pins and passwords of all sorts.
[34:41.850 --> 34:45.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are they going to compel you to give that information out?
[34:45.190 --> 34:46.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're already under arrest.
[34:46.470 --> 34:48.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: So what is it that they can hold over your head?
[34:50.070 --> 34:53.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: It may not be what they can access through the phone directly.
[34:53.310 --> 35:03.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, if your phone is backed up, like what happens at the border when you come back to the United States and they go through your cell phone and laptops, they basically clone the contents of the memory.
[35:04.690 --> 35:14.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: If they do that, the password you put on your phone may not offer you any protection if they're not trying to access the information through your phone itself.
[35:14.310 --> 35:25.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: If they just copy all the data out of your phone and send you on your way, as Gus said, catch and release, they may still have free access to all that information, even though you have a password-protected phone.
[35:25.930 --> 35:32.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie, I wanted to ask, so do we know of cases where border guards have actually just copied memory at random?
[35:33.070 --> 35:34.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Has it happened to one of us?
[35:35.410 --> 35:43.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it's happened to Jay Gopalbaum, who's been a guest on this program and is one of our friends who's been a keynote speaker at the most recent, at the Next Hope Conference.
[35:43.450 --> 35:47.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: His three cell phones he was in possession of when he came back.
[35:47.810 --> 36:00.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: He left to go to Europe right after the Akenite spook here at the Next Hope this past July and then on his return to the United States at the border, coming back in the U.S., three of the cell phones were rifled through.
[36:00.870 --> 36:02.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, in fact, I think they confiscated him.
[36:02.890 --> 36:04.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm not sure if they returned him right away.
[36:04.590 --> 36:05.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: And his laptop.
[36:06.810 --> 36:24.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: So even if they were password-protected, the phones, I believe that if the contents of their memory is copied, that does not prevent the privacy invader, or in this case law enforcement, or customs from still looking through the information.
[36:24.690 --> 36:26.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me try to clarify this.
[36:26.510 --> 36:30.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're saying that the password on a phone is not like the password on a computer.
[36:30.530 --> 36:33.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have a password on a computer, it's hard for them to simply copy all the data.
[36:33.990 --> 36:36.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: But a password on a phone, they could still copy the data?
[36:36.950 --> 36:39.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: In either case, they can still copy the data.
[36:39.730 --> 36:40.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: How easily?
[36:40.550 --> 36:45.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have a password on your computer, they have to do something internally to bypass that, don't they?
[36:46.410 --> 36:51.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can just take the hard drive out of the computer and look at it on a different computer Without entering the password at all.
[36:52.330 --> 36:57.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Unless you've taken the additional step of encrypting the data, which most people don't do.
[36:58.010 --> 36:59.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can you encrypt the phone?
[37:00.070 --> 37:06.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: A lot of cell phones, most cell phones don't give you the ability to encrypt the contents of the cell phone's memory.
[37:06.830 --> 37:17.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, yeah, it's not a bad idea to password protect your phone, but it may offer no security at all if you are arrested or picked up, even on a catch-and-release kind of thing, and the police just copy the data off your phone.
[37:17.610 --> 37:20.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: The password probably isn't going to provide any security for you.
[37:20.950 --> 37:29.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Unless somebody writes a custom application for a smartphone that allows you to encrypt that data, you may not be able to protect it from being snooped.
[37:29.990 --> 37:36.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, do we know of any phones or any software out there that does enable encryption of someone's phone contents?
[37:37.270 --> 37:41.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I should believe some of the corporate BlackBerrys have encrypted content.
[37:41.950 --> 37:45.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why BlackBerrys are so hated by certain governments, right?
[37:47.530 --> 38:01.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just to add, back in about the middle of November, Moxie Marlinspike 2 got stopped at the border and had his laptops cloned and cell phones and everything like that, basically to the point where CPB said, yeah, we're specifically targeting you.
[38:02.050 --> 38:04.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: We got a call saying, copy all of your stuff.
[38:04.810 --> 38:07.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: So this is just a random hacker we know, or...?
[38:07.650 --> 38:08.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is Moxie Marlinspike.
[38:08.890 --> 38:13.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did some interesting things to SSL over the past year or so.
[38:15.370 --> 38:19.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, it's because he knows Jake Applebaum and it was sort of a guilt by association thing.
[38:19.390 --> 38:22.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: They decided to clone his stuff and...
[38:24.690 --> 38:25.570]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[38:25.670 --> 38:27.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I have two things then to say on this.
[38:27.430 --> 38:36.310]  [SPEAKER_17]: One is, as Gus just mentioned, at least in the US, it's now considered within our right to jailbreak phones.
[38:36.530 --> 38:43.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: So if there's no way to encrypt the data on our phones, maybe someone should...
[38:43.790 --> 38:45.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: We should start looking into that.
[38:45.170 --> 38:55.930]  [SPEAKER_17]: But secondly, we talked about two interesting topics about these phone security issues and the SIM dialers.
[38:56.250 --> 38:58.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: Can the two possibly go together to help protect us?
[38:59.330 --> 39:03.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's a really good question, and I think the answer might be yes.
[39:04.750 --> 39:05.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hmm.
[39:05.650 --> 39:06.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let us meditate on this.
[39:07.390 --> 39:11.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: The answer to your question, Bernie, is Lichtenstein.
[39:12.070 --> 39:12.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Lichtenstein.
[39:12.470 --> 39:12.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: I thought it was Lichtenstein.
[39:12.810 --> 39:13.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Damn it, I couldn't...
[39:13.590 --> 39:15.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ooh, I couldn't remember that name!
[39:15.370 --> 39:15.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ugh!
[39:17.110 --> 39:18.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm sorry.
[39:18.190 --> 39:20.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just didn't realize that's what you were asking until now.
[39:20.890 --> 39:21.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ugh!
[39:21.430 --> 39:24.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: But thank you for providing a great deal of entertainment for us, Emmanuel.
[39:24.490 --> 39:24.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ugh!
[39:25.990 --> 39:28.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did anyone get the Christmas card from the White House?
[39:29.750 --> 39:30.150]  No?
[39:30.430 --> 39:30.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: No.
[39:30.830 --> 39:32.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Changing gears a little bit.
[39:32.310 --> 39:33.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not on the list.
[39:33.050 --> 39:34.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Was it also from Lichtenstein?
[39:35.250 --> 39:36.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, no, not at all.
[39:36.650 --> 39:38.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't from the White House either, though.
[39:38.890 --> 39:41.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: A holiday email Christmas card from the White House?
[39:41.150 --> 39:42.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: It just looked like, you know...
[39:42.930 --> 39:44.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm reading an AP story here.
[39:44.690 --> 39:45.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the dumbest AP story I've seen in a long time.
[39:45.750 --> 39:46.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wait, you opened this?
[39:46.910 --> 39:48.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's a lot of them, but this is really dumb.
[39:50.110 --> 39:53.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: An innocent Christmas card, electronic Christmas card from the White House.
[39:53.670 --> 39:55.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, we all get those, right?
[39:55.310 --> 39:58.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just that typical innocent Christmas card from the President.
[39:58.650 --> 40:11.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: But this one apparently was a ruse by cyber criminals to steal documents and other data from law enforcement, military and government workers, particularly those involved in computer crime investigations.
[40:12.310 --> 40:14.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is where it gets really good.
[40:14.770 --> 40:22.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Analysts who have studied the malicious software said yesterday that hackers were able to use the email to collect sensitive law enforcement data.
[40:22.250 --> 40:27.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: But so far there has been no evidence that any classified information was compromised.
[40:28.010 --> 40:36.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically just go on to talk about how hackers are behind this whole thing, how it's being used to steal millions of dollars using the Zeus malwares.
[40:36.470 --> 40:38.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's Z-U-E-S.
[40:38.470 --> 40:42.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: A well-known malicious code used to steal passwords and other online credentials.
[40:44.490 --> 40:52.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And basically, yeah, hackers are out there trying to get all this information and destroy the world.
[40:52.430 --> 40:55.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the article just goes on with misconception after misconception.
[40:55.770 --> 40:57.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's really kind of funny.
[40:57.910 --> 41:00.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just wonder if anybody got that actual email.
[41:00.530 --> 41:01.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know.
[41:01.310 --> 41:05.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't even open e-cards from my family, let alone the President.
[41:05.190 --> 41:07.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, I'm not a government computer security worker.
[41:07.390 --> 41:09.350]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, I don't think any of us would have been on that list.
[41:09.510 --> 41:13.930]  [SPEAKER_17]: And if we did, most of us probably would have been caught by our spam filters.
[41:14.170 --> 41:16.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: You do realize that it's not actually from the White House.
[41:16.590 --> 41:19.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like they actually send it to the White House's list.
[41:20.250 --> 41:20.310]  Yeah.
[41:20.570 --> 41:27.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, though, I wanted to say that the Associated Press appears to have caused RenderMan to have convulsions of a dangerous sort over here.
[41:29.130 --> 41:31.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: One of these days we need to get around to talking a little bit more.
[41:31.330 --> 41:33.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Have we done that lately about what a hacker is?
[41:33.470 --> 41:34.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: We did that last time I was here, I think, didn't we?
[41:35.930 --> 41:36.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's possible.
[41:36.490 --> 41:38.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can tell you what a hacker is not.
[41:38.290 --> 41:50.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just read the AP story and everything they say about hackers is basically what people who are selling information and being criminals, that's what they're all about.
[41:50.810 --> 42:00.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: A hacker might figure out a way to defeat a security system, but what they're describing here is just silliness that any idiot could do, really.
[42:00.850 --> 42:09.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think now we actually have a good way to define what a hacker is, and not by saying anything over the radio, but by simply telling someone if you want to know, go look for yourself.
[42:09.510 --> 42:10.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: There are hacker spaces everywhere.
[42:10.690 --> 42:15.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: We have conferences all over the place, and even monthly meetings.
[42:16.210 --> 42:19.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, which are this week, by the way, this Friday, 2600 meetings all over the world.
[42:19.550 --> 42:22.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: So if you want to know, you can meet hackers and...
[42:22.010 --> 42:22.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: Come check it out.
[42:22.850 --> 42:23.010]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[42:23.010 --> 42:30.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: So RenderMan, it sounded like specifically the Zeus stuff there was some nice elite toolage that was being used in this situation.
[42:30.790 --> 42:41.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, the whole thing with the greeting cards, I remember 10 years ago, this being an issue and that, you know, this was the big thing that people were doing every holiday, there'd be new greeting card going out with...
[42:41.870 --> 42:44.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but RenderMan, 10 years ago, they weren't from President Obama.
[42:45.210 --> 42:45.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[42:46.070 --> 42:53.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, President whoever at the time, but, you know, just as Rob said, you know, I don't even open any greeting cards from my family.
[42:53.750 --> 42:58.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's to the point where it's like the whole Nigerian 419 scams.
[42:59.090 --> 43:02.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, who are these people who have not learned this lesson yet?
[43:03.630 --> 43:07.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: There is a much larger issue of education here, I think, than anything else.
[43:07.970 --> 43:11.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's rather terrifying that we keep beating our heads against the same wall.
[43:11.790 --> 43:17.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think it's rather entertaining, and it says a lot about our federal workers.
[43:17.610 --> 43:23.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's entertaining in the, you know, way of making you want to drink more, sort of...
[43:23.110 --> 43:38.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, you know, they're talking about hackers, you know, and all these misconceptions that they're throwing out and about, when really what it sounds like is people just falling for something that many people have gotten so used to that, that, like Render Man said,
[43:38.830 --> 43:41.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: we won't even open any greeting cards from our relatives.
[43:42.010 --> 43:51.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, Render, I have to take issue with your saying Nigerian 419 scammers, because I had something happen to me the other day that just made me realize that I need to be much more careful in talking about Nigeria.
[43:51.570 --> 43:54.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please tell me you didn't, you know, send $14 million to some guy.
[43:54.370 --> 44:04.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, but this is the thing, is I, in the past couple of months, I've had a couple of very legitimate letters from scholars from Nigeria who happen to be studying technology.
[44:04.370 --> 44:09.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: And one of them made a comment on my blog and linked back to hers, and she's doing media studies in England.
[44:09.630 --> 44:16.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: And another one was talking to me about some discourse analysis kind of stuff that he'd been doing.
[44:16.810 --> 44:21.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And both of them said Nigeria in the email, and both of them had this very formal way of speaking.
[44:21.250 --> 44:23.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I just had to go, these are real people.
[44:23.670 --> 44:25.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're not trying to ask me for money.
[44:25.850 --> 44:30.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And like, it's, it's, I was just thrown into awareness of my own bonuses.
[44:30.310 --> 44:32.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was there spelling at least half decent?
[44:32.170 --> 44:32.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was impeccable.
[44:32.910 --> 44:34.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was absolutely, it's probably better than mine is.
[44:34.350 --> 44:36.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's your first sign that it's, you know, somebody...
[44:36.890 --> 44:46.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't necessarily know that's the case, but I think, I think we, you know, Nigeria, I do think is contributing a number by now of very skilled and talented computer programmers to the...
[44:46.950 --> 44:49.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Were they speaking in all caps?
[44:49.030 --> 44:50.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, they weren't.
[44:50.310 --> 44:52.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was what really tipped me off that this was probably okay.
[44:52.930 --> 44:58.810]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, you know, we're not trying to say that, you know, everyone from Nigeria are in on these sorts of scams.
[44:59.030 --> 45:05.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: But unfortunately, there are an insidious few who seem to have a home base in places like Nigeria.
[45:05.690 --> 45:19.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if I've mentioned this yet, but I found out from Finn Brunton, who studies spam a little while ago, that not only is spam outside in the world associated with Nigeria, but within the Nigerian film industry, which is known as Nollywood, in case I haven't mentioned Nollywood in here before.
[45:19.970 --> 45:21.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you haven't heard about Nollywood, go look into it.
[45:21.830 --> 45:22.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is kind of cool.
[45:23.250 --> 45:30.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are, you know, like Bollywood in India, there's this industry that caters very much to the continent they're on, to Africa, and specifically to Nigeria.
[45:30.950 --> 45:39.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: And in many Nigerian movies, the sort of Al Pacino, Scarface-style gangster types are spammers, and they are the heroes of these movies.
[45:40.050 --> 45:53.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: And so in Nigeria, you happen to have a very active group of fundamentalist Christians who are very anti-spam, because they see these movies, these violent, nasty movies, as corrupting the youth of their nation.
[45:53.610 --> 45:57.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: And since those movies are about spam, you get fundamentalist Christians who are saying, no spam in our country.
[45:57.790 --> 46:00.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, Nigeria is really interesting.
[46:00.830 --> 46:01.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's get to know it, shall we?
[46:02.950 --> 46:04.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's my PSA for the day.
[46:04.470 --> 46:06.050]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, you seem to be our tour guide on this.
[46:06.290 --> 46:08.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think I need to go to Nigeria and find out more.
[46:08.470 --> 46:11.250]  [SPEAKER_17]: And to our left, you'll see spam in it to our right.
[46:12.430 --> 46:13.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's a natural state.
[46:13.830 --> 46:20.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have just a few minutes left, so if any of our listeners want to participate in the conversation, our number is 212-209-2900.
[46:22.130 --> 46:23.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, great idea.
[46:23.250 --> 46:24.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was just about to ask if we could take some phone calls.
[46:25.790 --> 46:27.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if Rebel is out there, please don't call us.
[46:28.970 --> 46:31.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure there's other people out there that would like to speak on the air.
[46:32.450 --> 46:33.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Also, there's a story.
[46:33.750 --> 46:44.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know, Bernie, this is a particular bee in your bonnet here, about the Albany police, who have allegedly launched an anonymous text messaging tip service.
[46:44.370 --> 47:01.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, if you dial 847-411, which spells out APD tips, you can, according to all these news reports, send an anonymous tip to a detective that does not identify you.
[47:02.110 --> 47:12.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: And according to them, it enables citizens who otherwise might be reluctant to contact police or provide information to communicate anonymously through a text message.
[47:13.170 --> 47:15.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernie, is this, in fact, true or not true?
[47:16.510 --> 47:28.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it's true that the DEA in El Paso launched this drug texting tip line, but it's certainly false that any tips sent to that line are anonymous.
[47:28.110 --> 47:31.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was this the same one where they were sending in their drug orders?
[47:33.330 --> 47:37.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: That'd be kind of funny if people were sending drug orders into that tip line.
[47:37.150 --> 47:37.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: They have.
[47:38.770 --> 47:50.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: But the bottom line is that if you ever call a toll-free number or send a text message to something that a government official says, oh, don't worry, it's completely anonymous, they're lying to you.
[47:51.590 --> 47:52.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not anonymous.
[47:52.810 --> 48:05.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, whether they're deciding to protect your privacy or not is up to them, but simply when you call a toll-free number, the called party will have the ANI, the number you're calling from.
[48:05.930 --> 48:13.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Likewise, with a text message, if you're sending a text message, they'll know the mobile number that that text message came from, regardless of what the government official says.
[48:13.150 --> 48:13.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, it's anonymous.
[48:14.070 --> 48:17.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: So beware about anonymous tip lines.
[48:17.770 --> 48:24.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: Most of them, if they're a toll-free number, if they're a text thing, you know, SMS, it's not anonymous.
[48:25.130 --> 48:27.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think this is a symptom of the death of payphones everywhere.
[48:28.090 --> 48:31.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, that used to be the go-to place for anonymous calls to the police or whoever.
[48:31.410 --> 48:37.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: There was even a phrase, a common saying, drop a dime on someone.
[48:38.070 --> 48:38.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[48:38.210 --> 48:39.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's when payphones cost a dime.
[48:39.670 --> 48:45.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, that means somebody would drop a dime on their payphone and, you know, snitch on them.
[48:45.150 --> 48:47.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I totally did not know that was where that came from.
[48:47.630 --> 48:48.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: Drop a dime on someone, yeah.
[48:48.990 --> 48:50.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were just talking about that earlier today.
[48:50.090 --> 48:59.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was just doing a focus group with a bunch of kids up in Harlem who were talking about how the police have been finding out things about people in their neighborhood through Twitter and Facebook.
[48:59.450 --> 49:02.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they mentioned that phrase and I totally, that totally slipped my mind.
[49:02.570 --> 49:03.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well...
[49:03.350 --> 49:04.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's anachronistic in two ways.
[49:06.010 --> 49:10.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you would like to drop a dime in our direction, 212-209-2900.
[49:10.610 --> 49:12.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: It looks like we've got some calls on the line.
[49:12.810 --> 49:13.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: How's it looking over there?
[49:14.190 --> 49:14.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's blinking.
[49:15.090 --> 49:15.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Should I press one of the buttons?
[49:16.190 --> 49:16.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do it.
[49:16.970 --> 49:17.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go ahead.
[49:18.670 --> 49:19.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, you're on the air.
[49:21.330 --> 49:21.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh dear.
[49:23.390 --> 49:24.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: We scared them away.
[49:24.190 --> 49:25.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'll have to hang up on us, please.
[49:25.630 --> 49:26.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll try.
[49:26.590 --> 49:27.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: I hope they got their dime back.
[49:29.110 --> 49:30.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's try this line.
[49:30.290 --> 49:30.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[49:31.830 --> 49:32.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hey, how you guys doing?
[49:33.010 --> 49:33.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you?
[49:33.850 --> 49:34.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good.
[49:34.370 --> 49:34.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Glad to hear it.
[49:36.210 --> 49:41.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: I need Gus to teach my girlfriend how to be a proper girlfriend because she's absolutely priceless.
[49:42.990 --> 49:44.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if we can help you with that.
[49:44.570 --> 49:46.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm speechless and you really don't want that.
[49:46.910 --> 49:47.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: She's blushing.
[49:47.930 --> 49:48.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know you have...
[49:50.830 --> 49:51.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: Actually, that's me.
[49:51.570 --> 49:52.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm blushing.
[49:52.150 --> 49:54.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really appreciate the support, guys.
[49:54.490 --> 49:54.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks a lot.
[49:55.130 --> 49:55.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: You too.
[49:56.910 --> 49:57.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Not you.
[49:58.270 --> 49:58.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, him.
[49:59.690 --> 50:00.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[50:01.070 --> 50:02.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's try this call.
[50:02.350 --> 50:02.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[50:03.190 --> 50:03.590]  Blushing.
[50:05.150 --> 50:06.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you could turn down your radio.
[50:07.250 --> 50:07.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
[50:07.770 --> 50:09.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: People keep hanging up on us.
[50:09.270 --> 50:10.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've already heard that part of the show.
[50:10.990 --> 50:11.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, we did.
[50:11.670 --> 50:12.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't need to hear it again.
[50:12.750 --> 50:13.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's try this phone line.
[50:14.050 --> 50:14.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[50:15.490 --> 50:15.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[50:15.890 --> 50:16.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[50:17.510 --> 50:19.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm one of the...
[50:19.190 --> 50:25.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am the last surviving lawyer of a law firm that represented Major Armstrong.
[50:26.070 --> 50:26.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: No kidding.
[50:27.110 --> 50:27.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[50:27.530 --> 50:28.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Welcome to the show.
[50:29.150 --> 50:31.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was not alive when they represented him.
[50:32.630 --> 50:33.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we were...
[50:33.770 --> 50:34.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: With the firm.
[50:34.490 --> 50:34.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: With the firm.
[50:34.630 --> 50:35.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: With the firm, Nolte and Nolte.
[50:36.470 --> 50:38.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: They were his patent lawyers.
[50:38.590 --> 50:42.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's now Nolte, Nolte and Hunter and it's merged with a firm called Collard and Roe.
[50:42.950 --> 51:00.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, didn't his wife, Marion Armstrong, eventually take on, after Edwin Armstrong committed suicide, jumping out of a high window, didn't she take on RCA and Sarnoff and prevail eventually?
[51:00.670 --> 51:03.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: I believe that's true, yeah.
[51:04.270 --> 51:04.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[51:04.870 --> 51:05.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[51:05.310 --> 51:08.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: She compromised a little bit, which Edwin Armstrong was unwilling to do.
[51:08.670 --> 51:11.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it was recommended that he compromise, too.
[51:11.810 --> 51:12.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[51:12.010 --> 51:17.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's been through all that frustrating litigation, but he felt he was right and therefore he shouldn't compromise at all.
[51:18.770 --> 51:22.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: But she prevailed in the end, so perseverance paid off for her.
[51:22.070 --> 51:23.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: What were the lawsuits about?
[51:24.430 --> 51:25.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: A patent infringement.
[51:25.930 --> 51:27.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: So is this...
[51:27.050 --> 51:29.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: He invented FM and Sarnoff.
[51:31.870 --> 51:38.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was a complicated series of patents, and I don't, I didn't, I don't remember exactly the whole story.
[51:38.310 --> 51:41.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was covered in a, in Empire of the Air.
[51:42.150 --> 51:42.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right, great book.
[51:42.510 --> 51:46.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which was largely about Sarnoff and Armstrong.
[51:47.570 --> 51:56.970]  [SPEAKER_17]: So is this case well known within your firm, or did we just not so happen to catch someone listening to our show who was part of the firm, but also who knew of this case?
[51:57.570 --> 51:59.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm the entire firm at this point.
[52:00.090 --> 52:03.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was born well after the case was done.
[52:05.070 --> 52:05.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: So...
[52:05.470 --> 52:07.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: So everyone in the firm knows about it.
[52:08.150 --> 52:11.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everyone in the firm knows as much as I do, which is a whole lot.
[52:12.830 --> 52:14.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm glad to hear you're all in agreement on that.
[52:15.110 --> 52:16.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's, it's a fascinating story though.
[52:17.070 --> 52:30.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: I, I encourage our listeners to search for more information on Edwin Armstrong, as well as if you look at the history of FM radio in the United States, pull up some Wikipedia pages or what have you and start digging because there, there's some really fascinating chunks of history in there.
[52:30.710 --> 52:37.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was also hosting a radio, I was also hosting a radio show on an old haunt of yours, WUSB yesterday.
[52:38.230 --> 52:38.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: WUSB.
[52:38.770 --> 52:41.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes a substitute host for Long Island Liberty.
[52:42.570 --> 52:44.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow, this is a small world, isn't it?
[52:45.510 --> 52:45.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Very.
[52:45.950 --> 52:51.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: As our caller pointed out, that book, Empire of the Air, which was actually made into a, I think a television series as well.
[52:51.110 --> 52:51.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it was.
[52:51.870 --> 52:57.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a really fantastic drama and information about the history of radio and FM.
[52:57.830 --> 53:01.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: I highly recommend, pick up a copy of the book, Empire of the Air.
[53:01.210 --> 53:02.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: And Jim is also nodding vigorously.
[53:03.170 --> 53:03.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, indeed.
[53:04.130 --> 53:04.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good job.
[53:04.630 --> 53:05.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you very much, caller.
[53:05.930 --> 53:06.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're welcome.
[53:06.890 --> 53:07.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: We got great callers.
[53:08.230 --> 53:08.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[53:08.830 --> 53:09.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: We do.
[53:10.010 --> 53:11.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Some of the time, at least.
[53:11.530 --> 53:13.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: I bet this caller is going to be great as well.
[53:13.690 --> 53:14.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[53:14.430 --> 53:16.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's so many things I want to discuss with you guys.
[53:16.490 --> 53:20.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: But first of all, I'm waiting for a reply from the email I sent you guys.
[53:20.230 --> 53:23.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I sent you one on December 20th and I sent you one last night.
[53:23.410 --> 53:33.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm putting a big event together and I'm hoping there's some way your organization can be present at this event on January 22nd at the Brooklyn Lyceum.
[53:33.810 --> 53:36.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'm wondering if anybody saw that email, first of all.
[53:36.910 --> 53:37.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel?
[53:38.170 --> 53:42.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why don't you tell our listeners all about the event so that people other than us will know about it as well.
[53:42.930 --> 53:43.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely.
[53:43.530 --> 53:44.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, my name is Jeremiah Hosea.
[53:44.970 --> 53:45.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a bassist.
[53:45.670 --> 53:46.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a vocalist.
[53:46.390 --> 53:46.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a producer.
[53:46.990 --> 53:47.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm an activist.
[53:48.010 --> 53:50.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm an avid WBAI listener, love off the hook.
[53:50.730 --> 53:58.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I have the distinguished honor of presenting one of the greatest bass players in the history of the electric bass, bar none.
[53:58.010 --> 53:59.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: His name is Doug Wimbish.
[53:59.410 --> 54:01.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was in the house band for the Sugar Hill Gang.
[54:01.850 --> 54:03.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's the bassist for Living Color.
[54:03.530 --> 54:09.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the meantime, he's played on Seal albums, Madonna albums, Carly Simon albums, Bjork, everybody.
[54:09.670 --> 54:11.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's going to be there at this event.
[54:11.230 --> 54:15.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I really want to move away from the nightclub kind of scene.
[54:15.150 --> 54:24.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I want to start creating real human events, real events where people could get together, listen to some music, maybe share a little information, so on and so forth.
[54:24.890 --> 54:30.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm very, very moved by what's going on with Julian Assange and WikiLeaks and Bradley Manning.
[54:30.750 --> 54:36.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think everybody needs to be talking about this on the streets, in the workplace, so on and so forth.
[54:36.870 --> 54:44.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'm hoping that somebody from your organization could be there January 22nd, whether it's with a pamphlet or to speak for three minutes or to table.
[54:45.230 --> 54:46.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that's the first thing.
[54:47.610 --> 54:49.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Where can we find more information about this, our listeners?
[54:50.450 --> 55:00.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, unfortunately, our web designer has been in the country of Columbia and hopefully can put the flyer for this event on our homepage, which is earthdriver.org.
[55:00.330 --> 55:03.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: But in the meantime, look for earthdriver.org on Facebook.
[55:03.810 --> 55:14.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can check out earthdriver.org, where you can listen to the music of Doug Wimbish, you can listen to the music of Earth Driver, you can listen to the music of Faith and Olu, or the two other excellent artists who are going to be on the bill that evening.
[55:15.430 --> 55:17.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: But definitely look us up on Facebook.
[55:17.270 --> 55:19.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hopefully the flyer will be there soon.
[55:19.310 --> 55:24.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Brooklyn Lyceum is on 227 4th Avenue in Brooklyn.
[55:25.130 --> 55:26.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's the R train to Union Street.
[55:26.630 --> 55:28.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's you out right in front of the venue.
[55:28.250 --> 55:33.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it's one or maybe two stops from that central junction at Atlantic Avenue.
[55:35.030 --> 55:42.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, yeah, I really love what you guys are doing, but I just think we need to just to a place where we can just discuss this stuff a lot more freely.
[55:42.990 --> 55:48.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's not like a big deal, like I'm, you know, a big hacker and a computer person just to have a conversation about technology.
[55:49.250 --> 55:53.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well, if I assume you're local to the New York area, sir?
[55:53.850 --> 55:56.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I'm born and bred, you know, I live in Queens.
[55:56.790 --> 56:02.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well, you might be interested in New York City's 2600 meeting this Friday, if you're free Friday evening.
[56:03.430 --> 56:04.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely, what time is it?
[56:04.550 --> 56:06.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's at the City Group building.
[56:06.510 --> 56:09.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can find all the information you need at nyc2600.net.
[56:10.030 --> 56:10.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Any NY...
[56:10.790 --> 56:17.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, I'm supposed to teach a lesson at that time, but maybe I could shuffle it around, because I would love to start linking up with you guys.
[56:17.330 --> 56:18.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well, take a look.
[56:18.470 --> 56:19.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: And thank you very much for your call.
[56:19.610 --> 56:20.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, look!
[56:20.190 --> 56:21.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Rage Guy has just joined us in the studio.
[56:22.290 --> 56:23.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, Rage Guy!
[56:23.170 --> 56:23.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: How's it going?
[56:27.800 --> 56:28.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well...
[56:28.160 --> 56:28.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, okay.
[56:29.020 --> 56:29.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's real quiet today.
[56:30.020 --> 56:32.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's take this other call.
[56:32.220 --> 56:32.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[56:33.500 --> 56:34.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, hello.
[56:34.420 --> 56:34.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi.
[56:34.800 --> 56:40.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listen, I don't know if you guys talked about it or not, but it really seems to be right up your, uh, proverbial alley.
[56:40.960 --> 56:45.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: There was a guy by the name of Wheeler who was murdered about four or five days ago.
[56:46.020 --> 56:47.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: What murders aren't up our alley?
[56:47.960 --> 56:48.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Say again?
[56:48.540 --> 56:49.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't do murders on this show.
[56:49.960 --> 56:51.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't deal with physical bodies in the slightest here.
[56:51.860 --> 56:51.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[56:52.420 --> 56:53.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: In, uh, in Delaware.
[56:53.920 --> 57:03.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this guy was involved, uh, he's a West Point grad, he's a Vietnam vet, um, was involved with the Air Force, uh, cyber warfare unit.
[57:04.360 --> 57:11.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and the guy, I mean, so this is a real high ranking, uh, not a nobody, and turns up dead in a, in a, in a dumpster.
[57:11.960 --> 57:15.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, it's just being like flown way below the radar.
[57:16.520 --> 57:19.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, this might be something you guys are interested in.
[57:19.120 --> 57:26.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you're interested in hacking, which I know you are, you're the guy who did it for a living for the government and just suddenly wakes up dead one day.
[57:26.300 --> 57:28.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you have any ideas as to why, why him?
[57:28.880 --> 57:29.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Me personally?
[57:30.440 --> 57:31.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: The hell do I know?
[57:31.160 --> 57:31.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[57:31.360 --> 57:35.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like, uh, something that we should check out more, but we're, uh, out of time for this week.
[57:35.820 --> 57:36.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[57:36.180 --> 57:36.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'd be interested.
[57:37.000 --> 57:37.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for the call.
[57:37.960 --> 57:38.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[57:39.340 --> 57:39.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[57:39.940 --> 57:40.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you very much.
[57:40.800 --> 57:42.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, thank you very much, everyone.
[57:42.300 --> 57:46.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'd like to thank our, uh, our guests and, uh, render man and, uh, everyone.
[57:46.400 --> 57:48.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: And have a happy, uh, 2011, everyone.
[57:49.560 --> 57:51.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Check out your 2600 meetings this Friday.
[57:52.040 --> 57:52.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's Rob T.
[57:52.760 --> 57:53.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: Firefly for off the hook.
[57:53.620 --> 57:54.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Send us email.
[57:54.300 --> 57:56.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: oth@2600.com.
[57:57.580 --> 57:58.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Happy new year.
[58:00.460 --> 58:01.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Dreaming connectivity.
[58:05.000 --> 58:06.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Future unremembered stars.
[58:08.160 --> 58:08.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Lacking electricity.
[58:08.960 --> 58:09.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:11.000 --> 58:11.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:11.400 --> 58:12.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:12.940 --> 58:13.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:13.340 --> 58:13.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:13.480 --> 58:14.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:14.340 --> 58:15.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:15.420 --> 58:16.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:16.000 --> 58:16.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:16.700 --> 58:17.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:17.360 --> 58:17.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:17.380 --> 58:19.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:19.220 --> 58:19.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:19.720 --> 58:20.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:20.240 --> 58:20.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:24.760 --> 58:25.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:28.000 --> 58:28.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: The city.
[58:33.280 --> 58:57.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Baby, just once Baby, just once By the time I get to Ho Chi Minh She'll be crying Sleeping in the frying pan Somehow still not frying
[59:10.760 --> 59:12.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hit the brakes, don't fly right by
[59:30.540 --> 59:32.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is this your idea of fun?
[59:34.820 --> 59:36.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Come on, it's some of those pilots!
[59:37.680 --> 59:40.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Heathrow, Concord, nonstop flight
[59:43.780 --> 01:00:06.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Heathrow, Concord, nonstop flight Hit the brakes, don't fly right by Heat, throw, Concord, nonstop flight Baby, sleeping in Baby, sleeping in Baby,
[01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:11.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: sleeping in
[01:00:40.600 --> 01:00:43.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: oup, oup, oup, oup, oup, oup, oup louder This Is this your idea of fun?
[01:00:46.620 --> 01:00:49.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Baby, just wanna move on to me.