Off The Hook - 2011-07-27

[00:00.700 --> 00:02.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: You could ask me about dogs.
[00:02.460 --> 00:03.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: You could ask me about music.
[00:04.180 --> 00:05.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: You could ask me whatever you want.
[00:05.840 --> 00:17.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not promising I will answer your question, however, but if you want to bid on a seat for dinner with Delphine, that's me, you go to wbaiauction.org.
[00:17.600 --> 00:20.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's wbaiauction.org.
[00:20.260 --> 00:26.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I know it's summertime and it's no time for deadlines, but there is a deadline, so do this by the 31st of July.
[00:27.220 --> 00:27.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Got it?
[00:28.020 --> 00:28.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Bon appétit.
[00:32.400 --> 00:35.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:36.020 --> 00:37.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: The time is 7:02.
[00:38.060 --> 00:40.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Time for an extended edition of Off The Hook.
[00:42.100 --> 00:43.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, that's not our intro.
[00:43.680 --> 00:44.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Where's our intro?
[00:45.080 --> 00:46.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, it's not over there either.
[00:46.260 --> 00:47.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: They moved it.
[00:47.260 --> 00:48.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, it's not there.
[00:48.420 --> 00:49.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, hang on, hang on.
[00:49.200 --> 00:49.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to figure this out.
[00:50.060 --> 00:50.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I see.
[00:50.660 --> 00:51.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Somebody pressed that button.
[00:51.760 --> 00:53.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, let's start that again.
[00:53.640 --> 00:54.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll erase that.
[00:54.320 --> 00:56.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's two minutes after 7 o'clock.
[00:56.260 --> 00:57.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:58.000 --> 00:59.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's time once again for an extended edition of Off The Hook.
[01:06.500 --> 01:08.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:08.760 --> 01:10.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:11.940 --> 01:13.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I cut myself while shaving.
[01:14.660 --> 01:16.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:17.100 --> 01:19.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:21.460 --> 01:21.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: It would.
[01:22.120 --> 01:22.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bon diddly bonk.
[01:22.980 --> 01:24.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the best is back the worst.
[01:25.320 --> 01:27.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that's understood.
[01:27.420 --> 01:28.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bon diddly bonk.
[02:56.940 --> 02:57.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: And good evening to everybody.
[02:57.940 --> 02:59.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:59.180 --> 03:05.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening for an extended two-hour program, special fundraising edition.
[03:05.580 --> 03:07.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[03:07.220 --> 03:07.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello.
[03:07.620 --> 03:07.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Dot.ret.
[03:08.200 --> 03:08.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello.
[03:08.580 --> 03:08.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Rob T. Firefly.
[03:09.760 --> 03:10.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[03:10.320 --> 03:10.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Voltaire.
[03:10.880 --> 03:10.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey.
[03:11.160 --> 03:12.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[03:13.020 --> 03:13.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Greetings.
[03:13.840 --> 03:16.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're going to have Kevin Mitnick joining us.
[03:16.640 --> 03:18.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, we're going to try to Skype again.
[03:18.620 --> 03:19.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to see if this works.
[03:19.940 --> 03:23.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: If it doesn't work, we're going to go by telephonic communications.
[03:23.200 --> 03:25.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: I understand we're having some trouble with that as well.
[03:26.140 --> 03:27.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin's in Spain.
[03:27.580 --> 03:30.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what he's doing in Spain, but he's in Spain right now.
[03:30.580 --> 03:31.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's why we have to track him down.
[03:32.340 --> 03:34.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Apparently, he's talking on the phone in Spain is what he's doing.
[03:34.700 --> 03:35.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, he's talking on the phone.
[03:35.220 --> 03:36.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, because he's on the phone right now.
[03:36.500 --> 03:37.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not to us.
[03:37.180 --> 03:38.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, he was giving an interview.
[03:38.520 --> 03:39.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin's in demand.
[03:39.600 --> 03:43.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Kevin's going to be even more demand next month when this new book comes out.
[03:44.240 --> 03:46.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: He has... It's incredible.
[03:46.680 --> 03:48.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have a preview copy of it, a galley copy.
[03:48.980 --> 03:50.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's called Ghost in the Wires.
[03:51.100 --> 03:53.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's simply an incredible story.
[03:53.720 --> 03:58.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the story that the feds did not want him to tell.
[03:58.500 --> 03:59.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that proper phrasing, Bernie?
[04:00.640 --> 04:09.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't know if those are the phrases they use, but they prohibited him from profiting from any telling of the story for, I think, a whole decade or then some.
[04:10.140 --> 04:12.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he's not under that restriction anymore.
[04:12.720 --> 04:16.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: So this was an effort, I think, to prevent this book from being written.
[04:17.960 --> 04:18.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[04:19.400 --> 04:23.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's written now, and it's about to come out.
[04:24.240 --> 04:28.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I've been reading... I've gotten about halfway through it, and I only did that in a few days.
[04:28.540 --> 04:30.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's really riveting.
[04:30.200 --> 04:34.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think there's a movie in here, and I think there's all kinds of incredible stories.
[04:34.420 --> 04:37.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of things you might have heard in the past through different eyes.
[04:37.860 --> 04:47.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: For instance, the quote unquote movie Takedown, which I don't have enough to say about that garbage that came out.
[04:48.480 --> 04:49.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: But... And John Markoff.
[04:49.800 --> 04:54.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, well, there are all kinds of people who took advantage of Kevin's story, but never Kevin.
[04:55.220 --> 05:00.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: And now Kevin can finally speak his mind and say what happened, how it happened.
[05:01.340 --> 05:16.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's really an interesting accountant, because it's not... There really is not as much bitterness as you might think because of all the things that happened, all the bad things that happened to him.
[05:16.780 --> 05:21.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Takes responsibility for a lot of his own actions, but kind of paints a picture.
[05:21.480 --> 05:23.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you see how the world...
[05:23.780 --> 05:25.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: It might be very familiar to a lot of our listeners.
[05:25.500 --> 05:30.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: You see a very unfair way that hackers are characterized and how certain assumptions are made.
[05:31.100 --> 05:32.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: So... Okay, are we going to try this?
[05:32.300 --> 05:33.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Are we going to try... Skype's all set up?
[05:34.140 --> 05:35.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Allegedly, he's connected right now.
[05:35.900 --> 05:36.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Really?
[05:36.280 --> 05:39.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so all I have to do is bring this up and... Wait, which one?
[05:39.980 --> 05:40.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the one over here.
[05:41.080 --> 05:41.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[05:42.100 --> 05:43.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, is Kevin on the line?
[05:44.640 --> 05:45.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, can you hear me?
[05:45.600 --> 05:46.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh my God, yeah.
[05:47.160 --> 05:47.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[05:47.800 --> 05:49.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, and more importantly, you can hear us.
[05:49.840 --> 05:50.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can hear us.
[05:50.880 --> 05:51.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, and I hear myself.
[05:52.340 --> 05:53.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, that's not so bad.
[05:53.860 --> 05:57.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: We might go to the phone if this proves to be annoying, but...
[05:57.680 --> 05:59.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: For the moment, I think it's okay.
[05:59.380 --> 06:00.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, welcome to Off The Hook, Kevin.
[06:01.760 --> 06:02.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, thank you.
[06:02.420 --> 06:03.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's great to be here.
[06:03.260 --> 06:12.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm in Barcelona, Spain right now, so it's a little bit late, but I keep hackers hours, so I'm wide awake, and I look forward to being on your show.
[06:12.720 --> 06:15.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, is your phone ringing?
[06:16.060 --> 06:17.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because I don't think that's our phone.
[06:18.700 --> 06:20.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's definitely not my phone.
[06:20.280 --> 06:21.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, whose phone is that?
[06:21.320 --> 06:22.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think that's your phone.
[06:22.560 --> 06:26.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: We don't have... Wait, is it coming up in the same pot?
[06:26.800 --> 06:29.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: The phone's in the tally room and the Skype connection?
[06:29.900 --> 06:32.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or is that a call coming in to us?
[06:32.180 --> 06:33.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that how they're set up?
[06:33.660 --> 06:34.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we're still learning.
[06:35.020 --> 06:36.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're learning how this whole process works.
[06:36.820 --> 06:38.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know where that phone call came from.
[06:39.400 --> 06:39.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[06:40.380 --> 06:43.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can call me on the backup phone number that you guys have.
[06:43.280 --> 06:49.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we've been trying to call you on that, but the hotel receptionist says that there is no phone line available from the lobby to your room.
[06:49.840 --> 06:50.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what that means.
[06:50.760 --> 06:52.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: It sounds like they're messing with you again.
[06:53.900 --> 06:55.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: That sounds really weird.
[06:55.260 --> 06:56.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can call...
[06:56.440 --> 06:59.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll call the reception and go, like, what the hell's going on?
[07:00.680 --> 07:02.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because I don't know why they're not placing...
[07:02.500 --> 07:04.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, let me pick up the phone.
[07:04.540 --> 07:05.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, you sound good now.
[07:06.940 --> 07:08.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, if this sounds good, this works.
[07:09.760 --> 07:11.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's try this until...
[07:11.260 --> 07:12.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, there's five of us in the room now.
[07:12.800 --> 07:17.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: When three of us vote to change to a phone, we will change to a phone.
[07:17.260 --> 07:18.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right now, how do we feel?
[07:18.200 --> 07:19.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do we feel this is a good connection?
[07:19.200 --> 07:20.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: I say it is a good connection.
[07:20.700 --> 07:23.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I'm the one who dialed the phone before, and that was a total failure.
[07:23.600 --> 07:24.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: So this is much better.
[07:24.880 --> 07:25.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's easier for you.
[07:25.740 --> 07:26.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know that, but...
[07:26.520 --> 07:26.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, well, no.
[07:26.960 --> 07:27.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: Forget about easier.
[07:28.120 --> 07:29.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: All I could talk to was the receptionist.
[07:30.020 --> 07:30.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[07:30.420 --> 07:32.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, for now, you think this connection is good.
[07:32.300 --> 07:33.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's better than the receptionist.
[07:33.700 --> 07:33.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[07:34.180 --> 07:34.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Dot, what do you think?
[07:35.160 --> 07:36.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I vote for Skype.
[07:36.760 --> 07:37.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, good.
[07:37.380 --> 07:40.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it doesn't matter what the rest of you think, because we have a majority now, three people.
[07:40.800 --> 07:44.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, all right, we'll keep checking in every few minutes, and we'll see if we have to change that.
[07:44.680 --> 07:47.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so, Kevin, tell us how this book came about.
[07:47.420 --> 07:49.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: How long have you been planning on writing this?
[07:50.060 --> 07:54.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, it's been coming about for, like, it feels like a lifetime.
[07:55.520 --> 08:08.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: As you probably already know, when I settled my case with the government back in 1999, I had to agree that I wouldn't profit from telling my story for seven years.
[08:08.640 --> 08:11.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that was part of the deal with the federal government.
[08:12.440 --> 08:22.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: And initially, what the federal government wanted is for me never to be able to tell my story and try to impose a lifetime ban like they did on Kevin Polson.
[08:22.160 --> 08:25.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: I believe Kevin Polson cannot write a story.
[08:25.580 --> 08:35.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, they wanted me to accept these same terms and conditions, and I flatly refused and said, you know, we're going to take the case to trial, and then I'll have no conditions.
[08:36.740 --> 08:38.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we've settled on the seven years.
[08:38.740 --> 08:47.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that seven years actually was from seven years from when I was released from custody in January of 2000, which you were there, if you remember.
[08:47.580 --> 08:47.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: I do.
[08:47.920 --> 08:51.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, and so that brought us up to 2007.
[08:53.740 --> 08:59.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And what had happened is, you know, we, I think there was like a year wait after 2007.
[08:59.620 --> 09:07.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then finally, my agent, David Fugate at LaunchBooks, decided he was going to try to shop around the story to see if he can get interest.
[09:07.960 --> 09:14.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: And surprisingly enough, it was really hard to sell the book, because they said, well, we already know the story.
[09:14.300 --> 09:17.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, there's already been, you know, a few books written about you.
[09:17.360 --> 09:19.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, what else is there to tell?
[09:19.360 --> 09:28.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, that's interesting, Kevin, because I know John Markoff and Sotomayor had no trouble at all selling the story a mere months after you were captured and making, what, a million bucks from it?
[09:30.240 --> 09:34.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I think that was nearly a million bucks, you know, and that's what I heard.
[09:34.380 --> 09:36.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know for absolutely certain.
[09:36.580 --> 09:43.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: But don't forget, John Markoff was able to, you know, pen articles on the front, you know, which ended up on the front page of the New York Times.
[09:43.520 --> 09:54.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that was like a huge, you know, a huge selling point, is to be able to, you know, if I could, if I could pen my own article, and it's going to be on the front page of the New York Times, I'm sure I could sell my book too.
[09:54.560 --> 09:58.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, all you have to do is hack the New York Times website, and then you can put your stories in the front page.
[09:59.080 --> 10:00.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
[10:00.680 --> 10:02.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm sure that's a brilliant idea.
[10:03.740 --> 10:04.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[10:04.320 --> 10:07.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe I got to just stay here in Spain and hope they won't extradite me.
[10:07.740 --> 10:11.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, there's enough stories like that in the book, but continue telling us how the book actually came to be.
[10:12.580 --> 10:20.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, anyway, finally, Little Brown, a publisher in New York, was interested in the project.
[10:20.680 --> 10:25.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: And after a lot of negotiation back and forth, they finally commissioned the book.
[10:25.940 --> 10:32.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I decided to work with Bill Simon, who worked with me on the last two books, The Art of Deception and The Art of Intrusion.
[10:32.500 --> 10:36.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so, we worked on this project together for two years.
[10:36.820 --> 10:39.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: And now, mind you, Bill is a lot older than me.
[10:39.920 --> 10:45.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: He's like, you know, near, you know, quite, you know, he's from a different generation.
[10:45.900 --> 10:58.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so, he has much different working habits than I, you know, he's the type of guy that's up at 6 a.m., you know, eats breakfast at 7, starts to work in front of his computer at 8, and 8 o'clock is when I'm going to sleep.
[11:00.120 --> 11:07.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, it was a real interesting process is how we were able to work together on this project, because we just had different working hours.
[11:07.420 --> 11:11.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Like, I was on European time zone, and, you know, he was on California time zone.
[11:11.100 --> 11:18.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: And finally, after two years, we put the, you know, we put, you know, we put the project, you know, we finished the project.
[11:18.760 --> 11:29.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: And again, it was difficult, because I was working with Bill, who wasn't really knowledgeable in, you know, computer hacking vernacular, and, and some of the stuff I wanted to put in there, you know, of a technical nature.
[11:31.280 --> 11:40.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, a lot of, it required a lot of going back and forth over the manuscript for, you know, multiple times, until we were able to get it, you know, just right.
[11:41.900 --> 11:47.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I was of the mind, unless it was, you know, pretty much spot on, I didn't want it to be published.
[11:48.860 --> 11:57.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, we were, you know, we were actually late with the manuscript, and, but the publisher liked it so much that they forgave us and continued on with the project.
[11:57.980 --> 12:11.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I'm really excited that on August 15th is the first publication date, and the book will be pre-released at, well, I believe it will be at the DEFCON bookstore, and I have a book signing on my birthday, August 6th.
[12:12.000 --> 12:17.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that'll be really exciting, is, you know, on my birthday, the book is coming out.
[12:17.340 --> 12:18.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that's an awesome birthday present.
[12:19.360 --> 12:20.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really is.
[12:20.580 --> 12:23.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's, it's great that, I'm actually going to see you there.
[12:23.960 --> 12:24.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I might as well tell people this now.
[12:25.340 --> 12:31.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: For the first time in 11 years, I'm going to be going to DEFCON in Las Vegas, which takes place the first weekend of, of August.
[12:31.500 --> 12:39.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And for those of you, all the people that have been emailing us and, and wanting to know how they can get the hacker calendar, which we were offering last week, well, guess what?
[12:39.500 --> 12:40.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're not going to be offering it this week.
[12:40.740 --> 12:42.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, because we, we said we weren't going to.
[12:43.020 --> 12:45.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: We said we were only, uh, offering it for, for one week at a time.
[12:45.500 --> 12:47.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: But that will be available at the DEFCON conference.
[12:47.740 --> 12:48.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, it'll be debut there, in fact.
[12:48.860 --> 12:49.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can see it for yourself.
[12:50.060 --> 12:52.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, you can see, uh, Kevin as well.
[12:52.380 --> 12:52.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin will be there.
[12:53.300 --> 12:55.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, and it's going to be, um, a whole lot of fun.
[12:56.020 --> 13:10.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: But if you, if you want, uh, if you're not going down there, or if you are going down there and you want to, uh, get a special edition of the book, a special autographed copy, uh, and support the radio station at the same time, then we suggest you give a call now to 212-209-2950.
[13:10.360 --> 13:13.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let me tell you what you will get for your phone call.
[13:13.200 --> 13:19.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: For a pledge of $75, you'll get an autographed copy of, uh, Ghost in the Wires, uh, by Kevin Mitnick.
[13:20.020 --> 13:31.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: You will also get a copy of the movie Freedom Downtime, which is something that, uh, we at 2600 put together that documents the story of, uh, Kevin Mitnick while he was still in prison.
[13:31.840 --> 13:42.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what's interesting about that is, uh, it, it kind of, um, uh, conflicts with a lot of the news accounts of the time, but it, it, it runs in, in very nice parallel to the story as it's told in this book.
[13:42.940 --> 13:48.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you'll see how certain things were, were mentioned there that weren't mentioned anywhere else that turned out to be the truth.
[13:48.540 --> 13:52.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was, uh, it's, it's an incredible way to, uh, to see how history is made.
[13:52.980 --> 13:55.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: So for a pledge of $75, you get those two things.
[13:55.260 --> 13:59.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you also get, and this is really a cool thing, a free Kevin bumper sticker.
[13:59.720 --> 14:03.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: We found a stash of these things that we never put on vehicles or police cars.
[14:03.800 --> 14:05.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, we can, no, we didn't do that.
[14:05.720 --> 14:06.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Other people did though.
[14:06.580 --> 14:10.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, and you'll get one of those for a pledge of $75, two and two, two zero nine, two nine five zero.
[14:10.420 --> 14:14.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, if you want a little bit more for a pledge of one 25, you get all of that.
[14:15.060 --> 14:17.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: You get the book, you get the movie, you get the bumper sticker.
[14:17.440 --> 14:28.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: But in addition, you get about a dozen DVDs from the hope conferences over the years, uh, that, uh, somehow involved Kevin Mitnick, whether it be in the year, uh, 1997.
[14:29.260 --> 14:34.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, Kevin, you were in prison in 1997, but we still, we still, we still had a Kevin Mitnick panel.
[14:34.980 --> 14:40.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, your lawyer was on, uh, on the telephone and we talked to him and grilled him, uh, asked him all kinds of questions.
[14:41.020 --> 14:44.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was really the first opportunity to actually dispel a lot of the myths.
[14:44.780 --> 14:46.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: So that was a very significant thing back then.
[14:46.640 --> 14:53.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, uh, you gave the keynote address at the fifth hope in, uh, 2004 and you were there at the last hope.
[14:53.660 --> 14:55.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: You were at the next hope on the informants panel.
[14:55.220 --> 14:58.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have all of that and more, uh, for a pledge of one 25.
[14:58.040 --> 15:03.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, it's, it's a great, uh, uh, uh, Mitnick package, two Mitnick packages who we have tonight.
[15:03.760 --> 15:07.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, tonight is, is, is Kevin Mitnick night as far as WBAI is concerned.
[15:08.560 --> 15:09.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[15:10.180 --> 15:15.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's see those, uh, those phones light up with, uh, all kinds of, um, uh, people in the hacker world that are interested in, uh, in the story.
[15:16.040 --> 15:19.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd like to read, uh, if I may, the first paragraph of the book.
[15:19.980 --> 15:21.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, do I have permission to do that, Kevin?
[15:22.820 --> 15:23.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, go ahead.
[15:23.520 --> 15:24.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, good.
[15:24.180 --> 15:26.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't want to violate any, uh, copyright laws.
[15:26.400 --> 15:27.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, okay.
[15:27.400 --> 15:30.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is from chapter one, rough start.
[15:31.260 --> 15:35.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: My mother never drove around with one of those bumper stickers that said my son was student of the month.
[15:36.060 --> 15:44.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: There were other bumper stickers that would, uh, appear about me later on, but even when I was a boy, my talents were never the kind that would have won the heart of a school teacher.
[15:45.400 --> 15:46.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's certainly true.
[15:46.900 --> 15:50.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, uh, making reference to the free Kevin stickers that came, uh, later on.
[15:50.860 --> 15:54.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, it's, it's, it's the start of an amazing story.
[15:54.420 --> 15:56.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you get one of those stickers when you pledge?
[15:56.540 --> 15:57.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: You get one of those stickers.
[15:57.340 --> 15:59.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you pledge 125, you get two of those stickers.
[15:59.740 --> 16:00.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, so...
[16:00.140 --> 16:04.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: And there's, there's probably no other way to get one unless you peel one off a car or something.
[16:04.400 --> 16:06.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, there are cars that still have the stickers.
[16:06.920 --> 16:07.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, there are signs.
[16:08.060 --> 16:12.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not going to say where, but there are signs all around the area that have free Kevin stickers still on them.
[16:13.140 --> 16:14.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, we went to a really good place.
[16:15.080 --> 16:16.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: They last forever.
[16:16.560 --> 16:20.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you have to literally chisel them off, the, the signs to, uh, to get them.
[16:20.280 --> 16:22.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: People to this day ask, who's Kevin and why isn't he free?
[16:22.780 --> 16:23.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, Kevin is free now.
[16:24.160 --> 16:31.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, some people slice their stickers in half and reverse the words to say Kevin free after he was released back in 2000.
[16:31.500 --> 16:34.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: So if you get two stickers, you can do that with one of them and keep the other pristine.
[16:34.900 --> 16:35.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[16:35.360 --> 16:35.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[16:35.640 --> 16:39.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I have seen stickers that have been up since 1998 and are still up and still look pretty good.
[16:39.760 --> 16:41.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: So these are quality stickers.
[16:41.340 --> 16:43.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if your name is Kevin, then it's even better.
[16:43.300 --> 16:52.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've had policemen stop me to ask who Kevin is because their name was Kevin and they wanted a sticker for themselves just as kind of a goof for their co-employees.
[16:52.180 --> 17:01.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And yeah, it's incredible how that movement sort of, I guess, took off and really became a part of the American culture.
[17:01.700 --> 17:04.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: People seem to recognize the phrase free Kevin.
[17:05.080 --> 17:06.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: When's the first time you actually...
[17:06.660 --> 17:13.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think you were in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles, Kevin, when you heard about the free Kevin stickers, right?
[17:13.760 --> 17:14.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, yeah.
[17:14.740 --> 17:23.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And in fact, you know, you and several people from, I believe, 2600 showed up on my 35th birthday.
[17:24.020 --> 17:32.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that was when I was able, you know, when I had a free Kevin bumper sticker that somebody mailed me in the post that the prison authorities, I think, missed.
[17:32.460 --> 17:41.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I was able to go down to the law library on the third floor of the detention center and press the sticker to the window when somebody was across the street photographing me.
[17:41.840 --> 17:46.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think that ended up on your cover for the DVD set.
[17:46.460 --> 17:46.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[17:46.920 --> 17:49.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's also in Freedom Down Time as well.
[17:49.220 --> 17:50.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you can see us.
[17:50.520 --> 17:58.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Basically, we were waving across the street at this monolithic building, horrible architecture with just little slots for windows.
[17:59.000 --> 18:01.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that was your eye into the world.
[18:01.200 --> 18:02.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we couldn't find you.
[18:02.360 --> 18:03.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: We couldn't figure out where you were.
[18:03.460 --> 18:08.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: We had arranged to be across the street at the mobile station at a particular time.
[18:09.340 --> 18:10.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we couldn't...
[18:10.500 --> 18:13.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: We were looking at every single one of those little slots, seeing if we could see a face.
[18:13.160 --> 18:14.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we heard this tapping noise.
[18:15.540 --> 18:17.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we knew that was you.
[18:17.240 --> 18:19.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: We just were trying to figure out where the tapping noise was coming from.
[18:20.300 --> 18:22.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And eventually, we found the window.
[18:22.320 --> 18:23.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: We saw your face.
[18:23.240 --> 18:24.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we were able to wave.
[18:24.220 --> 18:25.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And everybody was really happy.
[18:25.140 --> 18:28.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: But then I understand what happened afterwards in the actual prison.
[18:28.540 --> 18:30.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: There was all kinds of mayhem as a result of this.
[18:31.120 --> 18:33.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, what they did is they locked down the prison.
[18:33.200 --> 18:40.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: What I did was I went into another inmate's room with their permission and was able to use a can of snuff.
[18:40.960 --> 18:45.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: And with the snuff, I was able to tap Morse code on the window.
[18:45.320 --> 18:48.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's what you guys heard across the street at the mobile station.
[18:49.940 --> 18:51.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it took a while.
[18:51.620 --> 19:00.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then eventually, I only wanted to do that for a short period of time because I knew that the prison staff would call up to that floor.
[19:00.480 --> 19:02.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: I believe I was on the sixth floor.
[19:02.500 --> 19:10.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they would have asked where I was to see if I was instigating this protest and then try to find a reason to put me in the hole.
[19:10.980 --> 19:13.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I was pretty quick on doing it.
[19:13.140 --> 19:15.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they got out of there and was pretty much in plain sight.
[19:15.860 --> 19:18.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: So when they got the call, I looked at the guard.
[19:18.620 --> 19:19.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the guard looked directly at me.
[19:19.800 --> 19:22.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I could see his lips move saying, no, he's right in front of me.
[19:22.960 --> 19:23.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, he's not doing anything.
[19:23.960 --> 19:28.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: So otherwise, I would probably would be put in the solitary confinement again.
[19:30.460 --> 19:37.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so anyway, yeah, with the free Kevin bumper stickers, I actually was doing a speech out here in Valencia, Spain.
[19:37.800 --> 19:42.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I actually found like 10 or 15 of those stickers at home.
[19:42.460 --> 19:44.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I brought them and I signed them and I gave them away.
[19:44.840 --> 19:45.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I ran out.
[19:45.940 --> 19:49.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: So if you have any extras, I could take some and give them out as well.
[19:49.680 --> 19:54.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you pledge, Kevin, $75 or $125, you can get one or two of those stickers.
[19:55.460 --> 19:58.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Then I'd have to make a lot of pledges to get more stickers.
[19:58.700 --> 20:00.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you know, we'll see what we can work out for you.
[20:00.640 --> 20:02.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: By the way, I need to apologize to listeners.
[20:03.000 --> 20:09.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: For some reason, every time somebody calls in, some bozo hooked it up so that the Skype and the phone are on the same channel.
[20:09.680 --> 20:10.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're trying to figure out how to separate them.
[20:10.980 --> 20:14.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Every time somebody calls in, we get a loud ring over that channel.
[20:14.460 --> 20:16.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: So we're trying to figure that out.
[20:16.120 --> 20:17.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got our best people on it right now.
[20:18.960 --> 20:22.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: But again, the phone number to call, which it's good that people are calling.
[20:22.280 --> 20:23.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not berating people for calling.
[20:23.820 --> 20:24.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please continue to call.
[20:25.420 --> 20:26.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[20:27.080 --> 20:28.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is a one-time offer.
[20:28.220 --> 20:30.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're not going to see this anyplace else.
[20:30.460 --> 20:32.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's an incredible book.
[20:32.520 --> 20:37.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: For a pledge of $75, you get the autographed copy of Kevin Mitnick's new book, Ghost in the Wires.
[20:38.060 --> 20:54.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you also get a copy of Freedom Down Time, the documentary, the independent documentary that we put out to counter all the nonsense that was being spread around back then in the late 90s about the Kevin Mitnick story and how he was capable of starting World War III from a Touch-Tone phone just by whistling into it.
[20:54.980 --> 21:02.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: All kinds of amazing stories that were just completely made up and believed by everybody from the mass media to federal judges.
[21:03.240 --> 21:06.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you'll get that and you'll get a free Kevin Buttman sticker all for a pledge of $75.
[21:06.540 --> 21:12.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: For $125, you'll get all that, plus about a dozen DVDs from various Hope Conferences over the years.
[21:12.980 --> 21:13.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what?
[21:13.480 --> 21:15.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd like to play an excerpt from one of those right now.
[21:15.520 --> 21:17.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is from 1997.
[21:19.400 --> 21:21.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, the Beyond Hope Conference.
[21:21.180 --> 21:33.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to listen to a little bit of Kevin Mitnick's lawyer, Donald Randolph, as he was talking to the Hope Conference back in 1997 about Kevin's case, which back then, very few people knew the facts about.
[21:33.580 --> 21:35.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: The film had not yet even been started.
[21:35.820 --> 21:40.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Kevin was basically languishing in prison without much of a chance of getting out.
[21:41.420 --> 21:45.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: 1997, Beyond Hope, please give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[21:47.060 --> 21:50.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: We had some information before, which has since changed.
[21:51.760 --> 21:54.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin has been in communication with us.
[21:55.800 --> 21:59.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we were going to have him speak, just say hello.
[21:59.620 --> 22:00.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, he really can't say anything.
[22:01.100 --> 22:04.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, anything he says will be used against him in one way or another.
[22:04.860 --> 22:16.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: But after talking with his lawyer and after talking with him, we all kind of reached the conclusion that it wouldn't be in his best interest to actually talk directly to the conference.
[22:17.340 --> 22:23.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: He did, however, convey that he wants to say he's sorry that he can't say something directly.
[22:23.240 --> 22:25.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: He has received all of your mail.
[22:25.240 --> 22:27.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: He would like to be able to reply.
[22:27.600 --> 22:35.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: However, everything he says is subject to be read and to be misinterpreted in all kinds of manners by the authorities.
[22:36.880 --> 22:41.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: So we do have his lawyer with us on the line.
[22:41.600 --> 22:44.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Actually, let's make sure we have him on the line with us.
[22:45.260 --> 22:46.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don Randolph, are you there?
[22:47.300 --> 22:49.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'm here, but I can't hear you very well.
[22:49.580 --> 23:11.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, actually, that doesn't really matter because I'm going to read this press release and then we'll give you a chance to make a statement and we'll relay some questions from the audience and whatever press people are still awake that may want to get the other side of the story for a change because I don't think we've ever actually heard anything other than what people like John Markoff
[23:11.420 --> 23:13.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: have to say about Kevin Mitnick.
[23:15.500 --> 23:24.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Before I begin, I will be playing this for Kevin over the phone sometime this week and the first thing I would like for him to hear would be a good round of applause from everybody.
[23:44.100 --> 23:45.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sad I did hear.
[23:46.380 --> 23:57.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is one of the most incredible cases I think we've ever seen and a real indication of the sickness of some of the people in charge of prosecutions.
[23:57.540 --> 24:04.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd like to read this press release and then turn it over to Don Randolph to give us a statement and take some questions.
[24:13.130 --> 24:16.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, we're not going to have the part where I read the press release.
[24:16.770 --> 24:18.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to go straight to Don Randolph.
[24:18.470 --> 24:24.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: ...to tell us, obviously, but any questions concerning what has already happened, I'm sure, would be welcome.
[24:27.190 --> 24:28.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: First question, go ahead.
[24:28.470 --> 24:31.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: What specifically are the alleged events that led to Kevin's arrest?
[24:34.570 --> 24:54.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, there have been a number of books written upon the subject and Kevin has advised me that the facts in those books, there's a lot of poetic license that's been taken in order to, when he was finally arrested in North Carolina.
[24:54.510 --> 25:09.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: All I can tell you is that it occurred in February of 1995 and the Jonathan Littman book was probably the closest to the mark in terms of the events which occurred.
[25:09.950 --> 25:12.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, rather than make...
[25:12.650 --> 25:17.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: to make a long story short, I think that that book is probably the one that if...
[25:18.210 --> 25:25.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: anything that's out in the media now, that's the one that probably explains the details most succinctly.
[25:27.910 --> 25:33.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to ask what Kevin's mood has been from the beginning of this.
[25:33.810 --> 25:39.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Has he experienced, I guess, a lot of depression from being in prison for two and a half years?
[25:40.470 --> 25:44.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: And what kinds of things make him feel better?
[25:45.150 --> 25:45.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: What can we do?
[25:45.810 --> 25:55.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I know one thing that would make him feel better is if we are able to be successful in the bail motion that we're putting together right now.
[25:57.430 --> 26:01.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is nothing glamorous about being an inmate in custody.
[26:02.470 --> 26:06.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think it doesn't make any difference whether it's federal or state custody.
[26:06.750 --> 26:09.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is for a hundred different reasons.
[26:11.310 --> 26:14.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Obviously, intellectually, those we can appreciate.
[26:14.170 --> 26:35.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: But personally, until one has experienced it, I think that it's impossible to understand what the deprivation of rights is and being thrust into a community where you're completely at the behest of prison guards, people who are bureaucrats in the system,
[26:35.950 --> 26:37.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: to whom you are a number.
[26:38.190 --> 26:41.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: So having said that, let me talk to you in a couple of ways.
[26:41.530 --> 26:42.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: First, his mood.
[26:42.450 --> 26:45.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've been representing Kevin since last October.
[26:46.590 --> 27:05.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he was in difficult straits when I started to represent him because he felt as if the negotiations had bogged down at that point in time in terms of trying to allow him to resolve his difficulties with the government in a reasonable fashion.
[27:05.690 --> 27:16.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what Kevin at that time considered and what I also consider is unreasonable is a sentence in the 10-year-plus range for what he has allegedly done.
[27:16.870 --> 27:18.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: We both consider that to be unreasonable.
[27:19.550 --> 27:28.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so he was obviously depressed by that prospect and by the fact that that's what the government, that seemed to be their position at the time.
[27:28.290 --> 27:41.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Since then, the Kevin that I've gotten to know is obviously a young man who's intellectually active but has a good sense of humor.
[27:42.030 --> 27:51.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if there's one thing that has saved him, I think allowed him to keep his marbles throughout this process is that he has a good sense of humor.
[27:51.170 --> 27:59.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so we try to find those instances regardless of the fact that he's in custody.
[28:00.030 --> 28:02.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: We try to never lose that.
[28:04.810 --> 28:06.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Three questions, maybe.
[28:06.490 --> 28:08.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: The third maybe doesn't really need an answer.
[28:08.750 --> 28:10.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: But let's have some fun with some of this.
[28:10.830 --> 28:22.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: The first thing that struck me as they talked about taking away Kevin Mitnick's right to a computer is that he is, among other things, a writer for a computer magazine, beloved by almost everyone in this hall.
[28:23.250 --> 28:35.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm wondering what are the First Amendment consequences of talking about a magazine writer saying that he can't access what is now an absolute basic tool of his trade, a computer.
[28:36.210 --> 28:37.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that seems profound.
[28:38.190 --> 28:43.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, first the answer is if you ask me, the answer is yes.
[28:43.670 --> 28:45.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I'm not the one that makes the rules.
[28:46.370 --> 28:57.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let me give you, just take a second and tell you, because this is also another aspect of this case which may spawn some circuit court opinions.
[28:57.950 --> 28:59.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: When it came down...
[28:59.070 --> 29:03.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: We had sentencing a couple weeks ago in the supervised...
[29:03.110 --> 29:04.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: in the two smaller cases, as I mentioned.
[29:05.190 --> 29:08.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if and when we get him...
[29:08.450 --> 29:08.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not if.
[29:09.230 --> 29:18.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: When we get Kevin out of custody in this case, then he will have to be on supervised release from that case at a minimum for a period of three years.
[29:19.030 --> 29:24.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the judge had to address the issue of what conditions she was going to place on it.
[29:24.510 --> 29:25.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: These are...
[29:25.130 --> 29:30.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Supervised release is the federal court's fancy word for conditions of probation.
[29:31.630 --> 29:35.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: The court first came forth with her proposed conditions of probation.
[29:36.030 --> 29:37.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: And let me just read...
[29:37.490 --> 29:39.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I happen to have them handy here.
[29:39.910 --> 29:40.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: So...
[29:42.130 --> 29:44.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll just pick out a couple.
[29:45.130 --> 29:52.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: The defendant shall not possess or use for any purpose portable laptop computers and derivatives.
[29:53.130 --> 30:03.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Any other electronic equipment presently available or new technology that becomes available that can be converted to or has as its function a computer-related capability.
[30:04.410 --> 30:12.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: It seems to me that pretty much covers everything that we have now and everything that we'll be using in our daily lives in the next 10 years.
[30:14.270 --> 30:15.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's see here.
[30:17.110 --> 30:27.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: The defendant shall not access computers or other forms of wireless communications via third parties and shall not act as a consultant to individuals or groups engaged in any computer-related activity.
[30:28.250 --> 30:39.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: The government came forward with their own series of proposed conditions of special release and they included the following.
[30:41.650 --> 30:56.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Defendant shall not participate in any conference, meeting, seminar, class, or discussion relating to computer hacking, the unauthorized access of telecommunication systems, computer systems, or computer networks, or security issues with respect to such systems.
[30:57.010 --> 31:09.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: He shall not communicate to or receive from any person or person any instructions or information relating to the access programming or use of computer systems, computer networks, or telecommunication systems, or devices.
[31:10.510 --> 31:18.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: When we got these proposed conditions from the court, we argued that we thought they were a tad over-restricted.
[31:19.970 --> 31:33.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in order to comply with them, really the only safe place for my clients would be in a cabin deep in the woods without electricity or running water writing his memoirs by candlelight.
[31:34.470 --> 31:40.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we hesitated to point out to the court, look what happened to Ted Kaczynski under those circumstances.
[31:41.770 --> 31:43.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, okay.
[31:43.670 --> 31:45.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, Don Randolph had a real way with words.
[31:45.410 --> 31:50.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's Kevin Mitnick's lawyer back in 1997 talking on the phone with the Beyond Hope Conference.
[31:50.770 --> 32:06.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: This has never before been made available, and it's part of the $125 package with all things Mitnick where you'll get every single talk that Kevin has given as well as talks about Kevin that have happened at the various Hope Conferences, those are Hackers on Planet Earth Conferences that have taken place here in New York.
[32:06.170 --> 32:12.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: In addition, you get the brand new Kevin Mitnick book, Ghost in the Wires, autographed, which is coming out next month.
[32:12.450 --> 32:23.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get the two-hour movie plus, at least as much in extra features, DVD that we put out back in 2001 called Freedom Downtime.
[32:23.390 --> 32:26.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get a couple of Kevin Mitnick Free Kevin Bumper Stickers.
[32:27.210 --> 32:30.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's for a pledge of 125-212-209-2950.
[32:30.850 --> 32:34.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you just want the book and the movie, a pledge of $75 will get you that.
[32:34.390 --> 32:37.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you'll get one bumper sticker too, Free Kevin Bumper Sticker.
[32:37.150 --> 32:38.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can put it anywhere you want.
[32:38.610 --> 32:40.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[32:40.370 --> 32:41.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've had a bunch of calls so far.
[32:41.930 --> 32:47.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: We want to get some more people calling in to take advantage of this one-time offer that we're offering tonight.
[32:47.310 --> 32:54.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're on for two hours tonight because Kevin is our very special guest talking to us all the way from Spain on a Skype connection.
[32:55.130 --> 32:55.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin, are you still there?
[32:57.630 --> 32:58.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, dear.
[32:58.310 --> 32:59.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: I could hear you loud and clear.
[32:59.530 --> 32:59.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, okay.
[32:59.810 --> 33:00.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: I had the wrong thing up.
[33:00.810 --> 33:00.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[33:01.010 --> 33:01.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry.
[33:01.430 --> 33:02.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was my fault.
[33:02.830 --> 33:03.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[33:03.470 --> 33:05.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Were you able to hear Donald Randolph?
[33:06.310 --> 33:06.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, yeah.
[33:07.610 --> 33:09.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: It reminds me of the old days.
[33:09.750 --> 33:10.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[33:10.630 --> 33:12.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, there was a rumor.
[33:12.330 --> 33:13.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe you can clarify this rumor now.
[33:13.870 --> 33:19.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Back in 1997, the Beyond Hope Conference, there was a rumor that you were listening in on the phone throughout the whole thing.
[33:19.510 --> 33:20.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that true?
[33:20.790 --> 33:22.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, that's not true at all.
[33:22.130 --> 33:22.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[33:22.410 --> 33:23.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: That rumor has now been dispelled.
[33:24.550 --> 33:25.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, okay.
[33:25.250 --> 33:29.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, I mean, I had a lot of restricted access to the telephone when I was in custody.
[33:29.790 --> 33:31.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, they were pretty afraid of me.
[33:31.690 --> 33:35.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, we didn't get to use the phone all that much.
[33:35.350 --> 33:42.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'd like to talk about that, actually, because, first of all, for those of you who don't know, and I've been told there are people who don't know who Kevin Mitnick is.
[33:42.370 --> 33:51.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin Mitnick, in the 1990s and beyond, was labeled by the mass media in this country as the most dangerous hacker in the world.
[33:51.790 --> 33:53.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Was that the Monica you had to wear?
[33:55.490 --> 33:55.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[33:56.270 --> 33:58.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: I remember a quote from Time Magazine.
[33:58.910 --> 34:04.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: It said something like, you know, handing a telephone to Mitnick was like handing a machine gun to a hitman.
[34:04.190 --> 34:06.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that was pretty, that was pretty scary.
[34:06.610 --> 34:07.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[34:07.550 --> 34:17.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because, you know, the guards in the detention center in Los Angeles kept passing that all around, you know, and then it made them even more concerned about what I can do with a telephone.
[34:17.310 --> 34:18.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: They were like scared.
[34:18.390 --> 34:23.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was like a mysterious, magical thing that they had no idea how I could manipulate.
[34:24.270 --> 34:34.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's amazing because speaking of what you can do with a telephone, the story of what Judge Feitzer, Feltzer, Mariana Feltzer.
[34:35.270 --> 34:44.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, she had some notion as to what you could do with a phone and I believe she, she imposed some rather severe restrictions on you at some point?
[34:45.050 --> 34:45.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, yeah.
[34:45.930 --> 35:01.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, at one point a prosecutor had stood up in federal court and had claimed that I could whistle the launch, I could first dial NORAD and somehow communicate with a modem and whistle into the modem and cause a nuclear strike.
[35:01.590 --> 35:10.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: And of course, when he said this in court, I kind of laughed figuring that the judge, he would lose all credibility with the judge because only a moron would believe anything like that.
[35:11.030 --> 35:25.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: And of course, the judge appeared to believe it and then made a special order that I wasn't to be anywhere near a telephone and they set up this high security method, a method of allowing me to make phone calls, which, by the way, I defeated.
[35:25.450 --> 35:25.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's in the book.
[35:26.830 --> 35:29.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, because I was at the bottom of the bucket, I had nothing to lose.
[35:30.650 --> 35:38.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: And because of that, I was held in the hole, which was a solitary confinement for nearly a year, you know, based on this myth that I could, you know, whistle the codes.
[35:38.690 --> 35:44.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, I've been practicing, Eric, over time and I think I got the whistle down where I could actually do it.
[35:44.110 --> 35:45.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, hold on a second.
[35:45.390 --> 35:47.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you want to hear it, I'll let you listen to it.
[35:47.490 --> 35:48.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, Tony, is this okay?
[35:49.370 --> 35:51.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got to check with management to see if we can whistle those.
[35:52.790 --> 35:57.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is to start a nuclear war or to continue one?
[35:57.170 --> 35:58.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know if you could hear it, but let me try.
[35:59.390 --> 35:59.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hopefully you'll hear it.
[35:59.930 --> 36:02.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, I've got to make sure we can do this.
[36:02.470 --> 36:03.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mike, are we all right?
[36:03.190 --> 36:04.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do we do nuclear whistles over the air?
[36:05.550 --> 36:06.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: What if NORAD is listening?
[36:06.970 --> 36:11.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: We just have to make sure our listeners do not put their telephone near the radio, which should be okay.
[36:11.810 --> 36:26.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't, if you're listening to this, do not put your phone anywhere near the radio speaker because what could happen, we're using Skype, so it's not using the phone lines, but if you were to get a phone line involved in this, then it could open up those like doors somewhere in Idaho and nuclear missiles could start being launched.
[36:26.890 --> 36:27.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that my understanding?
[36:28.310 --> 36:28.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Bernie S.
[36:29.050 --> 36:29.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: is on the phone.
[36:29.630 --> 36:31.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie, do you know anything about this?
[36:31.190 --> 36:34.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm afraid that that could be true if you believe what the government was saying.
[36:34.950 --> 36:36.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Why would you believe what the government says?
[36:36.450 --> 36:36.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: For God's sake.
[36:37.070 --> 36:37.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: He's on the phone right now.
[36:38.090 --> 36:40.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: This entire conversation is going over a phone line.
[36:40.610 --> 36:45.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie, all right, Kevin, whistle the things.
[36:45.230 --> 36:47.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: I assume our listeners are not holding the phone up to the speaker now.
[36:48.630 --> 36:50.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: You risked the nation being destroyed.
[36:51.110 --> 36:53.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: I reported it so I could get it right, but here it goes.
[36:53.590 --> 36:54.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, here we go.
[36:55.090 --> 36:55.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hopefully it will work.
[36:56.090 --> 36:56.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[36:56.890 --> 36:57.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, hopefully it won't work.
[37:36.750 --> 37:37.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's here.
[37:37.570 --> 37:38.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's happening right here.
[37:38.910 --> 37:39.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh dear.
[37:42.820 --> 37:43.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[37:43.960 --> 37:44.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're sorry.
[37:45.080 --> 37:48.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: We didn't mean to end civilization, but...
[37:48.700 --> 37:50.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know that clearly, but I think something just blew up.
[37:50.920 --> 37:51.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[37:51.560 --> 37:52.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, things have to blow up, don't they?
[37:53.340 --> 37:59.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, Kevin, you know, I didn't realize how dangerous you were until today, and I see what the government had in mind, but you mentioned something.
[37:59.800 --> 38:09.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: You said this is in the book, and okay, I guess we won't reveal the secret tonight, but let's just say that you were in the situation where you were being watched by a guard.
[38:09.740 --> 38:11.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: You could only dial a couple of numbers.
[38:12.040 --> 38:15.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: You were not allowed to touch the phone physically,
[38:18.700 --> 38:20.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: aid security, and bypass it.
[38:20.780 --> 38:21.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that correct?
[38:21.800 --> 38:23.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I can tell the story.
[38:23.500 --> 38:28.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, there's only one story in the book, and there's so many stories that tell it one story out of...
[38:28.220 --> 38:29.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, do we have time?
[38:29.260 --> 38:29.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: Of course, yeah.
[38:29.840 --> 38:30.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do I have about three minutes?
[38:31.160 --> 38:32.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Go nuts.
[38:32.860 --> 38:33.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, awesome.
[38:34.380 --> 38:47.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I was in solitary confinement, so imagine when I had to make a phone call, they had a special log, and the officer took me out of my cell and handcuffed me and actually shackled my legs, because you're in the hole, so you're in the highest security possible.
[38:47.980 --> 38:50.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, it's the same security as if I killed a prison guard.
[38:50.920 --> 39:00.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So then they would escort me to this room that had like three payphones on the wall, you know, three typical looking payphones from Pacific Belt.
[39:00.340 --> 39:08.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Then they'd take the shackles off, the handcuffs off, and then the guard had a log book, and I think there was five authorized numbers I was allowed to call.
[39:08.920 --> 39:13.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was my mom, my dad, my aunt, my lawyer, and my wife at the time.
[39:16.800 --> 39:26.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And my wife at the time worked for General Telephone, and during the day she was at work, she wasn't at home, and the only number on the list was the home number.
[39:28.040 --> 39:39.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, you know, and this happened, you know, a little bit while, after I was in the hole for a while, it wasn't like instantaneously I decided to do this, but I figured I'm already at the bottom of the bucket, so what did I have to lose?
[39:39.860 --> 39:46.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm in solitary confinement in a federal prison, you know, where the government says I could launch nuclear weapons by whistling into a telephone.
[39:46.340 --> 39:47.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: I had nothing to lose.
[39:47.880 --> 39:57.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, what I started doing is pacing back and forth because the cord of the handset was, you know, longer than typical, and I would be scratching my back, you know, with the other hand.
[39:57.500 --> 40:02.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'd be constantly like, you know, like I had a rash or something, which I didn't have, but I'd pretend.
[40:02.600 --> 40:05.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I would actually rub my back against the payphone.
[40:05.880 --> 40:11.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, during my phone call, like for example, to my father, I'd, you know, have a conversation.
[40:11.880 --> 40:16.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then after the conversation ended, I'd continue as if I was talking to him.
[40:16.980 --> 40:19.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I would like rub my back against the payphone.
[40:19.420 --> 40:24.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Then I'd put my hand behind my back as I'm leaning against the payphone and hold down the switch hook for a second.
[40:25.420 --> 40:35.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then immediately I'd put my hand in front of me because as you know, once you hang, once you hit the switch hook, you have about 18 seconds before the phone is going to go into reorder.
[40:35.740 --> 40:42.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: And during this whole time, the guard is sitting in a chair four to five feet in front of me watching my every move.
[40:43.780 --> 40:54.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: So then I would pace like one more time and then I'd lean against the phone again and then I was pretty adapted using a touchpad after having, you know, a decade of phone phreaking, you know, under me.
[40:54.540 --> 41:03.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I simply just dialed zero plus the number behind the back, which it was easy to do because the number I general telephone at the time was 805-371-6000.
[41:03.360 --> 41:05.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: So it's not a difficult number to dial.
[41:06.080 --> 41:16.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so I would still be in mid-conversation pretending to have a conversation and the next thing that was going to happen was the operator was going to come up on the line and ask, you know, who the clock calls from.
[41:16.720 --> 41:22.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: So what I had to do is, oh yeah, well, you know, tell Uncle Jerry that Kevin says hello.
[41:22.420 --> 41:26.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And at the point I said Kevin is when the operator says, well, who's the clock call from?
[41:27.420 --> 41:35.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I'd continue in conversation and eventually the call, you know, would be and the person would accept the call and then they'd be talking to the new person.
[41:35.540 --> 41:39.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I started doing this constantly right under their eye.
[41:39.560 --> 41:41.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, they're sitting there watching me.
[41:41.520 --> 41:44.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: So after about three and a half weeks, around 6 a.m.
[41:44.800 --> 41:52.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: one morning, my cell door opens and it's the executives of the prison and they shackled me, you know, again, handcuffs, leg irons.
[41:53.160 --> 42:02.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: They moved me to the attorney conference room on the floor of the Metropolitan Detention Center and they take off the handcuffs and they say, Mitnick, you know, how are you doing it?
[42:03.780 --> 42:04.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I go, how am I doing what?
[42:05.200 --> 42:06.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: They go, you're redialing the number.
[42:06.820 --> 42:08.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're somehow redialing the phone.
[42:09.680 --> 42:13.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I kind of had like a look on my face like what?
[42:13.560 --> 42:15.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said, how can I be redialing the phone?
[42:15.660 --> 42:28.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, Mr. Mitnick, you know, we wanted her all prison, you know, all inmate phone calls, you know, down in our room and we know you're redialing the phone even when our officer is not taking his eyes off you.
[42:28.980 --> 42:29.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: How are you doing it?
[42:30.520 --> 42:35.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I simply smiled and, you know, I sat back and smiled and said, hey, I'm not David Copperfield.
[42:35.480 --> 42:36.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know what you're talking about.
[42:36.880 --> 42:38.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, they got kind of pissed off.
[42:38.680 --> 42:41.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: They shackled me back up, threw me back in my cell.
[42:41.960 --> 42:45.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then two days later, I hear like some drilling outside the cell.
[42:46.360 --> 42:50.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it's actually Pacific Belt technicians installing a phone jack.
[42:50.880 --> 42:57.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'm thinking to myself, are these idiots actually going to install a phone in my cell and try to restrict the numbers that I can call?
[42:57.920 --> 43:00.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or, you know, you know, because a lot was passing through my mind.
[43:00.460 --> 43:01.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm like, what could they be doing?
[43:02.340 --> 43:13.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, the very next time I had to make a phone call, I figured it out, is the officer brings a phone, a regular like home phone, plugs it into the jack, and he dials the number I want to, you know, I want to call.
[43:13.500 --> 43:23.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then he puts the handset on a long 25-foot cord through the, you know, through the trap door and the cell door, you know, the cell door, you know, where they give you food and stuff.
[43:23.550 --> 43:26.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that way, I couldn't reach the Touch-Tone pad.
[43:26.840 --> 43:33.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I kind of, you know, I kind of, you know, thought, wow, this is like Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs.
[43:33.460 --> 43:41.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: So that's how I was able to pretty much call anybody I wanted, even though I was in solitary confinement and under a court-ordered phone restriction.
[43:41.420 --> 43:41.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[43:42.400 --> 43:44.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is unreal.
[43:44.100 --> 43:53.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's the fact that you had that sense of rebellion in you that even under these horrendous conditions, and by horrendous conditions, you were in solitary, solitary confinement.
[43:53.420 --> 43:54.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Your cell was what?
[43:54.360 --> 43:55.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eight by ten?
[43:57.620 --> 43:58.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: That or smaller.
[43:58.760 --> 44:05.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, geez, I don't recall the actual measurements, but, you know, something like eight by ten.
[44:05.280 --> 44:05.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: It had a bunk.
[44:05.840 --> 44:06.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: It had a toilet.
[44:07.160 --> 44:11.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, it was very restrictive because you're in a high security unit.
[44:11.540 --> 44:14.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, like my neighbors were guys from the Mexican mafia.
[44:15.180 --> 44:20.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I think there was a guy that was a DEA agent that became an important, you know, became a criminal.
[44:22.740 --> 44:23.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, high security.
[44:23.860 --> 44:27.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, it definitely wasn't the highlight of my life.
[44:27.400 --> 44:28.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: It really sucked.
[44:29.080 --> 44:29.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[44:29.620 --> 44:36.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can't imagine the people that are in Supermax in Colorado like Theodore Kaczynski that my attorney brought up as the Unabomber.
[44:36.540 --> 44:36.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[44:36.820 --> 44:38.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because these guys experienced that forever.
[44:39.320 --> 44:43.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, and I was going bonkers like after a week.
[44:43.440 --> 44:46.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, I'm probably a little bit crazy today from him.
[44:46.760 --> 44:57.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the thing is, and what you bring up in the book, imagine, you say this to the readers, imagine just living inside a closet for months at a time.
[44:57.300 --> 45:02.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: You get out one hour a day to walk around in a slightly bigger space and breathe actual air.
[45:03.040 --> 45:15.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: But imagine just having that as your room where you're fed through that little slot in the door and your contact with the outside world is extremely limiting and just how insane that will drive you.
[45:15.520 --> 45:26.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's hard for any of us, I think, to imagine what it is that motivated you to keep trying to beat the system and succeeding in beating the system so many times and just to keep that spirit.
[45:26.320 --> 45:30.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's an incredible thing regardless of your background just to have that spirit.
[45:31.300 --> 45:38.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I mean, yeah, even when I was a fugitive, I remember, you know, I needed a new identity.
[45:38.780 --> 45:43.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: And at the time, I didn't want to...
[45:43.920 --> 45:50.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: At first, I used an identity of somebody else, but that wasn't going to be permanent because, you know, that's how you get caught.
[45:51.320 --> 46:00.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: So back in those days when I was like 11, 12 years old, I used to frequent this bookstore in North Hollywood, California called the Survival Bookstore.
[46:00.160 --> 46:04.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they have all the books on subjects you weren't supposed to know about.
[46:04.760 --> 46:08.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: And my favorite book was called The Paper Trip by a guy named Barry Reed.
[46:08.240 --> 46:13.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it described how to, you know, create yourself a new identity and disappear forever.
[46:13.840 --> 46:31.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: And what it described is basically, you know, hijacking the birth, you know, basically when an infant passed away at a very young age and had no other records in the infant's name, how you could basically take over that, you know, deceased person's identity and become them.
[46:31.600 --> 46:39.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I did some research and found out that there was about 14 states that had open birth and death records.
[46:39.340 --> 46:40.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: And one of them was...
[46:40.420 --> 46:45.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I wanted to find a state that was kind of a place where people wouldn't think I'd ever go.
[46:45.600 --> 46:47.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: And what I did is I picked South Dakota.
[46:48.360 --> 46:49.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so I remember I went to...
[46:49.800 --> 46:51.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Before I went to South Dakota, I did a little bit of prep work.
[46:52.140 --> 46:57.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: I went to a supermarket and they had a business card printing machine.
[46:57.740 --> 47:06.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: So you put in $5 and you press in your name and your address and who you want to be and, you know, within three minutes out pops the business cards.
[47:07.020 --> 47:13.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I had a flashback of the old TV series The Rockford Files you know, where James Rockford had the business card printer in his car.
[47:13.280 --> 47:13.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[47:13.640 --> 47:15.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: And what I did is I created a business card that said...
[47:16.300 --> 47:23.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: a business card that said the name I was using at the time which was Eric Weiss paying tribute to Harry Houdini because that was his real name.
[47:23.680 --> 47:29.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I had these cards printed up that said Eric Weiss Private Investigator An address in Las Vegas and a PI number.
[47:30.240 --> 47:39.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And armed with those business cards in a nice suit, I went to the Bureau of Vital Statistics in South Dakota, went in the front door.
[47:40.020 --> 47:49.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: I told them that I was a private investigator in an ongoing investigation, and they needed access to the death records.
[47:50.220 --> 47:57.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I was introduced to the actual person that was the head of the Bureau of Vital Statistics for all of South Dakota.
[47:58.040 --> 47:59.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I told her the same story.
[47:59.960 --> 48:02.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: And she goes, no problem, Mr. Weiss.
[48:02.260 --> 48:08.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: What we'll do is just tell us the names of the people you want, and we'll just print out the death certificates for you, and we'll be happy to do it.
[48:08.400 --> 48:09.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, this is what it will cost.
[48:09.840 --> 48:11.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said, no, no, no, you don't understand.
[48:12.700 --> 48:21.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: So what I'm doing is I'm doing a research project or an investigation on the causes of death in certain years, about 20 to 30 years ago.
[48:21.520 --> 48:25.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I need to go ahead and I need to be able to browse the death certificates.
[48:25.400 --> 48:25.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, boy.
[48:26.340 --> 48:34.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: So what they did is the head lady told one of her employees to go ahead and train me on the microfiche.
[48:35.080 --> 48:36.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they trained me on the fiche.
[48:36.460 --> 48:40.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: They showed me to access all the films for the year, and they put me in this back room.
[48:42.220 --> 48:59.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And basically, for a whole week, I was in the back room researching people that died around one or two years of age, and they were born in a different state, and a year that I could, you know, pass for, and obviously a Caucasian, you know, with the color of the eyes,
[48:59.500 --> 49:00.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: you know, and all that sort of thing.
[49:00.280 --> 49:01.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So everything matched up.
[49:01.800 --> 49:09.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the very next day, one of the staff in the Bureau of Vital Statistics says, hey, I heard you're a private investigator.
[49:09.920 --> 49:10.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: I go, yeah.
[49:10.820 --> 49:15.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: She goes, I have an uncle, I think he's in Las Vegas, and I haven't spoken to him in years.
[49:15.740 --> 49:17.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do you think you can help me find him?
[49:17.840 --> 49:19.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: I go, I'll give it a shot.
[49:19.280 --> 49:27.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I went back to my hotel that evening, and, you know, of course, you know, with Lexis, Nexus, and Westlaw, I was able to find the uncle in about two minutes.
[49:28.460 --> 49:32.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Got it, you know, I was able to use social engineering skills to get the phone number, because it was a non-published number.
[49:32.860 --> 49:35.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: I go back to the, you know, the Bureau of Vital Statistics.
[49:35.600 --> 49:39.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: The next day, I give this lady the information, and literally, she's hugging me.
[49:39.800 --> 49:49.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can't believe that, you know, now she can call her uncle, and, I mean, and for the next week I'm in there, she's bringing me donuts and coffee.
[49:49.600 --> 49:50.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow.
[49:50.820 --> 49:55.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bringing me donuts, and I'm sitting there doing all this research, and then I get annoyed.
[49:56.060 --> 49:57.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: And why did I get annoyed?
[49:57.480 --> 50:00.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because in this room, they had all these printers going.
[50:00.580 --> 50:11.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it was annoying because, you know, I needed some peace and quiet, because I'm trying to quickly go through his, you know, 10 years of death certificates, in as quick time, you know, as quickly as possible.
[50:12.160 --> 50:22.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I walk over to the printers, and my jaw drops, because what was in the box was blank birth certificates for the state of South Dakota.
[50:22.380 --> 50:22.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, dear.
[50:23.180 --> 50:28.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I go, oh, my God, to me, you know, being a fugitive from the FBI, that was like hitting a jackpot, right?
[50:29.580 --> 50:35.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I look at the other boxes that weren't, you know, obviously fed into the printer, and they were just blank birth certificate stock.
[50:35.560 --> 50:39.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, of course, I ripped myself, you know, I took about 50 certs, certificates.
[50:40.220 --> 50:47.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then the problem was, is those certificates aren't worth the paper they're printed on, unless they're embossed with the state seal.
[50:47.440 --> 50:47.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[50:48.480 --> 50:53.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, outside this room of where I was, they basically have the embosser.
[50:53.120 --> 51:01.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And any time an employee would have to emboss a death certificate, a marriage certificate, a birth certificate, they'd walk over to this table and emboss it, then walk back to their desk.
[51:02.880 --> 51:06.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, the very next day, it was kind of like snow flurries in South Dakota.
[51:07.080 --> 51:10.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I brought my ski jacket into the office there.
[51:11.100 --> 51:14.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you know how government employees are when, you know, when it's lunchtime?
[51:14.580 --> 51:15.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's lunchtime.
[51:15.580 --> 51:16.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: They don't do any work.
[51:16.940 --> 51:28.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, knowing this, around 1230 sharp, I walk to the restroom, I take my ski jacket, and on the way back, I basically take the embosser and put it under my jacket, walk into the room, which is five feet away.
[51:28.780 --> 51:33.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then my heart's beating like crazy, because if I get caught, you know, the jig is up, right?
[51:34.020 --> 51:41.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: Not only am I going to get in trouble for, you know, embossing my own birth certificates, you know, I'm going to get in trouble for everything else.
[51:41.580 --> 51:45.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, my heart's pounding as I'm embossing 50 of these certificates.
[51:45.960 --> 51:48.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, of course, nothing ever happens.
[51:48.580 --> 51:56.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm able to put the embosser back where it was, and I walk out the door with 50 blank birth certificates to become 50 new people that I want to be.
[51:56.660 --> 51:57.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[51:57.140 --> 52:01.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that's kind of a crazy story, because I think it takes a lot of chutzpah.
[52:01.660 --> 52:06.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because when I look back at it today, I'm thinking, damn, I was crazy.
[52:06.640 --> 52:09.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because, you know, I mean, I was nuts.
[52:10.060 --> 52:10.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, well...
[52:10.660 --> 52:12.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: I would never do anything like that today.
[52:12.760 --> 52:14.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: But back then, you know, I had a lot of chutzpah.
[52:14.880 --> 52:21.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you're also being hunted and trying to live on your own and figure out ways to survive.
[52:21.420 --> 52:23.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, yeah, this is kind of what you have to do.
[52:23.740 --> 52:26.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you sort of invented identity theft there, I think, back then.
[52:26.980 --> 52:28.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: That was incredible.
[52:28.600 --> 52:37.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you just have so many stories like this, where you've ingratiated yourself with people that you think would be the last people that would take you in.
[52:37.620 --> 52:46.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: For instance, if you need a password, you just pretty much waltz up to the person that has the password and ask them for it and present the scenario in such a way that they feel they have to give it to you.
[52:46.540 --> 52:49.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's just story after story about how you did this.
[52:49.920 --> 52:57.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's quite inspirational, both in learning how to do this and just as an individual trying to stay free.
[52:57.680 --> 53:02.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And reading the book, you get a sense to why you had to do that based on the background.
[53:03.040 --> 53:14.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: You start off very early in your life, in your childhood, and you see how things developed and how you basically got to where you were at that particular time in your life.
[53:14.380 --> 53:18.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I should point out that we are almost at the $1,000 mark.
[53:18.140 --> 53:19.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: We need to be further than that, though.
[53:19.520 --> 53:26.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is part of a special two-hour program that we have tonight featuring Kevin Mitnick, who we're speaking to from Spain over a Skype connection.
[53:28.200 --> 53:32.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And basically, Kevin is putting out a brand new book called Ghost in the Wires.
[53:32.440 --> 53:33.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's coming out next month.
[53:33.940 --> 53:38.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you can get a signed copy by pledging tonight.
[53:38.380 --> 53:40.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[53:41.620 --> 53:44.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: $75, you'll get a copy of the book.
[53:44.180 --> 53:51.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get a copy of Freedom Downtime, the two-hour, two-DVD documentary filled with all kinds of extra bits in addition to the two hours.
[53:52.080 --> 53:57.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: It tells the story about Kevin's life and his run from law enforcement.
[53:57.820 --> 54:12.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of things you can learn from this whole battle as far as how someone's name can get completely tarnished with a bunch of lies, as well as how to stay one step ahead of the authorities when push comes to shove.
[54:12.480 --> 54:14.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[54:15.220 --> 54:18.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you also get, for a pledge of $75, a free Kevin bumper sticker.
[54:18.660 --> 54:25.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: These adorned cars and stop signs and all kinds of other things in the late 1990s as the free Kevin movement was in full swing.
[54:25.980 --> 54:33.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: For a pledge of $125, you get all of that, plus an additional bumper sticker and a whole bunch of DVDs from the Hope Conferences featuring Kevin.
[54:33.160 --> 54:36.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to play an excerpt from another one of those in just a couple of moments.
[54:36.880 --> 54:37.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a great deal.
[54:38.120 --> 54:45.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Our pledge people at 212-209-2950 will be more than happy to explain it in further detail to you.
[54:45.140 --> 54:47.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: But right now, we have to get those phones ringing.
[54:47.800 --> 54:49.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we've gone over the 1,000 mark.
[54:49.680 --> 54:51.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have one call on the line.
[54:51.320 --> 54:53.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd like to see that turn into, what, six, seven?
[54:54.020 --> 54:57.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think that's being too unrealistic.
[54:58.140 --> 54:59.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think so at all.
[54:59.340 --> 55:02.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you mentioned the whole free Kevin movement in the 90s.
[55:02.800 --> 55:03.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some of us were there.
[55:03.640 --> 55:04.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was there.
[55:04.140 --> 55:04.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: You were there.
[55:05.140 --> 55:13.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we knew that there was a sort of sense about everything that this wasn't just another hacker that got busted.
[55:13.520 --> 55:14.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: This wasn't just another case.
[55:15.140 --> 55:20.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: We sort of knew that however this case went was going to affect everything that happened afterward in the hacker world.
[55:20.980 --> 55:27.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: And even when we were around back then, there was not all that much information about what was going on behind the scenes.
[55:27.200 --> 55:31.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, we had people like you, Emmanuel, who had limited contact with Kevin and were updating the rest of us.
[55:32.260 --> 55:37.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: But so far as the complete story, we all had sort of these incomplete bits and pieces.
[55:37.480 --> 55:44.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And now that this book can finally come out, I think those of us who were there will learn a whole lot about what was fully going on with this whole case.
[55:44.200 --> 55:46.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: The thing is, I mean, we told the story through Freedom Down Time.
[55:47.100 --> 55:48.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: We told our version of it.
[55:48.420 --> 55:55.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: There were other versions that were, I think, a lot less accurate, such as what happened in the New York Times and also the movie Takedown.
[55:55.840 --> 55:59.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: But now, for the first time, you get to see what Kevin has to say.
[55:59.420 --> 56:02.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: You get to read all these pages, fill the stories.
[56:02.560 --> 56:05.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, Kevin, you can talk for hours and hours about all these things.
[56:05.780 --> 56:12.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are so many stories, so many things throughout the course of your life to this day that you've been involved in, things I'm learning that I didn't know about.
[56:12.520 --> 56:14.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's just, it's fascinating.
[56:14.560 --> 56:14.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's incredible.
[56:14.880 --> 56:24.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've told you privately that I really think there's a movie in this book and an interesting one as opposed to the one, the fictionalized one that was put out about your life.
[56:24.220 --> 56:30.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think this is one that really will be inspirational and exciting and educational at the same time.
[56:30.980 --> 56:37.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, I just want to mention, historical interests aside, all the stuff in here is pretty darn interesting.
[56:37.940 --> 56:43.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: If anyone who's ever heard Kevin talking about any of his past experiences, it's riveting.
[56:43.500 --> 56:52.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: The kinds of things that happened and the scenarios and how it all progresses, you very rarely come across something like that.
[56:52.320 --> 56:59.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie, I know you served your time in the federal pen and state pens and things like that for equally crazy reasons.
[57:00.340 --> 57:06.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you have the same spirit of individuality and sort of rebelling against the system and outsmarting it.
[57:06.640 --> 57:09.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: But what do you think it is that drives people like you and Kevin?
[57:09.720 --> 57:13.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: You actually have to maintain your sanity and your mental health.
[57:13.720 --> 57:15.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: You actually have to have that attitude.
[57:15.660 --> 57:20.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: You have to be able to laugh at the situation as being beyond ludicrous.
[57:21.040 --> 57:30.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: You have to be able to see your keepers, those who have restricted your freedom, you have to see them for who they are.
[57:31.020 --> 57:32.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you just have to keep your chin up.
[57:32.980 --> 57:35.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Otherwise, they will get the best of you.
[57:35.220 --> 57:39.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I commend Kevin for having done that for about five years.
[57:39.760 --> 57:42.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: I only had to for, you know, more or less a year and a half.
[57:43.280 --> 57:49.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: But he shared something that I shared, which was the not knowing when the light would be at the end of the tunnel.
[57:50.960 --> 57:59.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I would envy fellow prisoners who would have a release date to look forward to, as I'm sure Kevin did as well.
[57:59.960 --> 58:05.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: He had no idea, as I did, didn't, when he's going to be getting out.
[58:05.640 --> 58:14.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's really tough when you're there for month after month, year after year, not knowing when this nightmare is going to be over.
[58:15.020 --> 58:19.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's worse than serving a longer sentence and at least having a release date.
[58:19.320 --> 58:24.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: So keeping your sanity, Kevin managing to keep his sanity under those conditions is pretty amazing.
[58:24.460 --> 58:31.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I want to encourage our listeners to take that to heart and read his story.
[58:31.720 --> 58:44.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't read it yet, but I've spoken to Kevin on many occasions, and I'm really impressed with how he kept his sanity during that half decade of just ridiculous, oppressive conditions.
[58:45.300 --> 58:48.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listeners, call 212-209-2950.
[58:48.120 --> 58:59.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're going to get from the horse's mouth, from Kevin himself, which may be one of the more objective, probably the most subjective and factual revision of his story.
[59:00.340 --> 59:11.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: A DVD called Freedom Downtime, which the 2600 folks, I was slightly involved with that, to put this out, you know, during when this was going on.
[59:11.300 --> 59:12.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you tell your story in that movie as well.
[59:13.100 --> 59:14.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, and other hackers as well.
[59:14.780 --> 59:20.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was really an amazing time when the government didn't really know how to handle hackers.
[59:21.040 --> 59:23.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: They couldn't quite wrap their mind of what we were capable of.
[59:23.560 --> 59:24.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: But they still don't, though.
[59:24.780 --> 59:26.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, look around.
[59:26.380 --> 59:29.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: What I mean is they have a much better grasp of...
[59:29.380 --> 59:36.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're still going to misrepresent things, but before they were far more naive and actually believed their own BS.
[59:37.200 --> 59:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[59:37.620 --> 59:41.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now I think they're just far more...
[59:42.640 --> 59:56.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're more disingenuous now in that they know that they're just spouting nonsense and blowing smoke, whereas before they really believed some of the stuff that they were saying that hackers could do.
[59:56.020 --> 59:58.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they just didn't have a handle...
[59:58.080 --> 01:00:00.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: They had very little technical training.
[01:00:00.160 --> 01:00:00.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:00:00.540 --> 01:00:01.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have two calls on the line.
[01:00:01.940 --> 01:00:02.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's make that five.
[01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:04.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:00:05.080 --> 01:00:08.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Again, we're offering the brand new Kevin Mitnick book, Ghost in the Wires.
[01:00:09.120 --> 01:00:12.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's coming out next month.
[01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:14.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: It tells all and then some.
[01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:18.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's an incredible series of stories.
[01:00:18.980 --> 01:00:20.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: The thing is, a lot of people...
[01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:22.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this was true back in the 90s as well.
[01:00:22.580 --> 01:00:25.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of people would come up to us and say, but he's a criminal.
[01:00:25.200 --> 01:00:28.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: He deserves to be punished and all that kind of a thing.
[01:00:28.660 --> 01:00:33.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is something that, you know, if you read the book, even Kevin does not hide behind anything.
[01:00:34.160 --> 01:00:36.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: He admits what it is exactly that he did.
[01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:38.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: He even says that they should be punished to some degree.
[01:00:39.180 --> 01:00:45.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the amount of punishment and the sheer irrationality of it, that is the story.
[01:00:45.520 --> 01:00:46.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is what makes this fascinating.
[01:00:47.060 --> 01:01:00.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just the fear that people in authority positions have of somebody who's using technology in a way that they don't understand and the incredible restrictions and mistruths that follow somebody around for the rest of their lives.
[01:01:00.460 --> 01:01:01.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is something...
[01:01:01.560 --> 01:01:06.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin's story is something that every single one of us who is an individual can identify with to some degree.
[01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:13.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whether or not you believe somebody is a criminal or not, if you are an individual in any way, this is something that speaks to you.
[01:01:13.080 --> 01:01:15.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:01:15.580 --> 01:01:23.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Join the four calls on the line now and get the Kevin Mitnick book, get the bumper sticker, get the movie, get the DVD series.
[01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:27.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's just an incredible document of our time.
[01:01:27.580 --> 01:01:36.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And keep in mind, most of this, except for Kevin's release and subsequent rehabilitation into society, most of this happened before 9-11.
[01:01:36.200 --> 01:01:44.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Imagine a person like Kevin Mitnick walking around and challenging authority and outsmarting authority and technology.
[01:01:44.700 --> 01:01:49.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Imagine that happening in a post-9-11 world in America and how he would be treated then.
[01:01:49.420 --> 01:01:50.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin, do you ever think about that?
[01:01:52.120 --> 01:01:53.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think it's quite scary.
[01:01:53.860 --> 01:02:11.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, you know, it's kind of interesting because, you know, how I got started in all of this was, you know, primarily from phone phreaking because I was involved in the hobby of phone phreaking after a student at my high school introduced me to it and I was just taken aback and it was just amazing to me,
[01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:13.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: you know, learning about the telecommunications network.
[01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:30.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I remember when I was in high school, I wanted to go to computer science class because another student recommended it and I kind of pooh-poohed it at first and then when I found out the phone company was moving to electronic switching systems, I wanted to learn more about computers because I think it would,
[01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:34.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: you know, give me a little bit of an edge over the phone company or at least understanding what's going on.
[01:02:35.140 --> 01:02:48.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I remember the teacher told me, oh, I'm sorry, Kevin, you don't have the prerequisites to get into computer class, you have to have calculus because back in this time, you had to be a senior with calculus to get into computer class and I think I only had like trig or something.
[01:02:49.560 --> 01:03:07.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I started showing the teacher, a guy named Mr. Crist, I started showing him all the tricks I can do with the telephone, you know, using loop arounds, you know, calling into, remember Roto-Rooter, you know, calling in and, you know, having it play back your Touch-Tones and he thought it was quite interesting.
[01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:09.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: He waived the prerequisites, let me in the class.
[01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:17.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then the first programming assignment in Fortran was to write a program that would find the first 100 Fibonacci numbers.
[01:03:18.560 --> 01:03:22.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And to me, that was the most boring assignment in the world.
[01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:36.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I decided on a new assignment to write a login simulator that would simulate the login prompt to log into the school's RISC-C system and it would steal the password and then log the person into the account.
[01:03:36.380 --> 01:03:38.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: I thought that was a more interesting and practical program.
[01:03:39.140 --> 01:03:47.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I wrote that program instead and then I got into trouble because I ran it on all the terminals in the computer room and, you know, got everybody's password.
[01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:57.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: But in any event, I told the instructor, I told Mr. Crist, I said, listen, I didn't have time to write this Fibonacci exercise, but I have my password stealer.
[01:03:57.120 --> 01:03:58.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can you at least give me credit for that?
[01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:00.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I got an A, right?
[01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:02.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: So he said, yeah, I did a good job.
[01:04:02.700 --> 01:04:03.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, that was really clever.
[01:04:04.120 --> 01:04:07.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it took a little bit, you know, he used a little bit more ingenuity.
[01:04:07.900 --> 01:04:10.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he gave me an A, a bunch of attaboys.
[01:04:10.900 --> 01:04:15.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: So the ethics taught to me when I was in school was it was cool and fun.
[01:04:16.640 --> 01:04:22.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you were considered a whiz kid and it was behavior that you were awarded for.
[01:04:22.520 --> 01:04:30.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And in today's world, if I did that today and was still in high school, I'd probably be called to the principal's office and be picked up by the police.
[01:04:30.560 --> 01:04:32.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's unfortunate reality.
[01:04:33.260 --> 01:04:35.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's not like that everywhere in the world, fortunately.
[01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:40.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And maybe it can be shifted in this country as well if we simply educate people.
[01:04:41.600 --> 01:04:46.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Getting this book is maybe the first step towards educating people on that level.
[01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:48.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I hope a lot of people call in now.
[01:04:48.120 --> 01:04:50.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:51.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Pledge for the book.
[01:04:51.240 --> 01:04:54.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin Mitnick, Ghost in the Wires, coming out next month.
[01:04:54.560 --> 01:04:58.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Autograph, copy, and get the movie as well.
[01:04:58.260 --> 01:04:59.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get the DVDs.
[01:04:59.140 --> 01:04:59.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get the bumper stickers.
[01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:01.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get the whole package.
[01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:02.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Learn as much as you possibly can.
[01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:06.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to have more about poor Mr. Chris later on, Kevin's teacher.
[01:05:06.560 --> 01:05:09.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Quite a beleaguered guy that endured a lot.
[01:05:10.560 --> 01:05:12.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we learned a lot through him as well.
[01:05:12.540 --> 01:05:13.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have to take a station break though.
[01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:18.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're on for an extra hour tonight and personal computer show will be back next week.
[01:05:18.620 --> 01:05:24.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please give a call 212-209-2950 and let's fill those phone lines up.
[01:05:24.500 --> 01:05:31.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Remember, we're doing this for the station so that the station remains here and so that we have a voice to present stories like this in the future.
[01:05:32.020 --> 01:05:34.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:05:34.420 --> 01:05:35.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll be right back.
[01:05:44.070 --> 01:05:47.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I won't back down.
[01:05:47.350 --> 01:06:31.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can stand me up at the gates of hell But I won't back down No, I'll stand my ground Won't be turned around And I'll keep this world from dragging me down I'm gonna stand my ground And I won't back down And I won't back down There ain't no easy way out Hey,
[01:06:32.790 --> 01:07:13.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: I will stand my ground And I won't back down And I won't back down And I won't back down Well, I know what's right I got just one line In a world that keeps on pushing me around But I'll stand my ground And I won't back down And I won't back down And I won't back down Hey,
[01:07:13.860 --> 01:07:25.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I will stand my ground And I won't back down And
[01:07:47.760 --> 01:08:16.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: I won't back down Hey, baby There ain't no easy way out I won't back down Hey, I will stand my ground Yes, correct?
[01:08:17.050 --> 01:08:37.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, in fact When you started to play that on the commercial break I started laughing Because that was exactly the song that was running through my head as I was in custody And where the government was trying to get me to agree to spend a decade behind bars based on causing fictitious losses You know,
[01:08:37.930 --> 01:09:00.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: because don't forget what my case was about later was stealing source code so I could learn about the vulnerabilities and create invisibility for myself And what the government tried to get these companies to do is saying that their losses were their R&D cost in developing these products like the Motorola MicroTAC Ultralight phone When in reality it would have been the value of a source code
[01:09:00.610 --> 01:09:26.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: license So I had this, you know rebellious type of attitude exactly like Tom Petty You could stand me up at the gates of hell but I won't back down And I sat in prison for four and a half years because I wouldn't back down The government at first tried to get me to cooperate against others which I wouldn't do because I have more integrity than to become an informant And then they tried to get me
[01:09:26.710 --> 01:09:49.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: to fall on the sword basically to do what they wanted me to do and I wouldn't do that either and the case was drawn out for a long four and a half years as you know where I wasn't allowed to see evidence and crazy stuff about the laptop and in custody so my attorney could understand what the case was about and all these crazy things happened But one thing...
[01:09:49.650 --> 01:09:58.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know if you know this in the book I don't know if you have this in the galley copy but in the final copy of the book I'm running kind of a...
[01:09:58.310 --> 01:10:26.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: what I call a non-contest because I'm not making a promise but what the game is is in... and on each chapter I have a ciphertext and there's ciphertext for each of the chapters and if you solve the ciphertext you... there... there will be 20 questions and if you read the book you'll be able to answer those 20 questions and what I want to do is I have a whole bunch of evidence that the FBI had
[01:10:26.550 --> 01:10:50.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: returned to me after the case you know... and it's still in FBI you know... evidence bags with FBI fingerprint dust so I still have these items and what I want to do is maybe put into a large bin you know... the people that answer these questions correctly is dump it into like... you know... like a big bin and you know... choose 10 names and with those 10 names you know... they get like a piece of
[01:10:50.350 --> 01:11:16.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: evidence memorabilia I'm trying to figure out how to do this because I can't make a promise because then it becomes a legal contest and I'm not going to... you know... have to deal with the headache of running a contest so I'm not going to make a promise to give out any prizes but just so... I feel inclined to give out some gifts gifts if... you know... if... if... if... if people are able to
[01:11:16.330 --> 01:11:37.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: solve the puzzle and they're randomly chosen as a... as somebody I want to give a gift to so... so that's a cool thing that nobody knows about in the book because there's been no publicity about it actually... yeah... in the version I have it just says code to come so I don't think that part was... it was... put in yet but it sounds like an amazing thing to really... devote even more time to when
[01:11:37.290 --> 01:11:57.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: you're reading this book it's... it's really something that will exercise your mind and teach you so much but I gotta say... we're up to 1600 now we... we... we really need it to be about 400 above that on the top of the hour and that was 13 minutes ago so... we're running a bit behind we need our listeners to do their bit call in... support the radio station remember... the radio station was
[01:11:57.210 --> 01:12:19.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: vital throughout the whole Kevin Mitnick ordeal back in the... late 90s and... and beyond and also for... for Bernie S.'s case and for fiber optics case and for all the other cases that have happened in the many years that we've been on the air and for the cases that will happen in the years ahead you need a voice you need an independent voice to be able to say things as they are to not be
[01:12:19.630 --> 01:12:36.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: beholden to commercial interest now Kevin I... you refer to it as a commercial break and I... that is what you call it in radio but we don't have commercials here on this radio station we have listeners that's all we have we don't... we don't break for any kind of corporate sponsorship or anything like that And what that gives us,
[01:12:36.770 --> 01:12:52.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: in the middle of the FM dial, it gives us the freedom to speak our minds, to have our listeners speak their minds, to say things that would lose us sponsors because we'd be annoying Microsoft, we'd be annoying Verizon, we'd be annoying all the major corporations out there by telling things like they are.
[01:12:53.070 --> 01:12:56.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin, you could not tell your story on a commercial radio station, right?
[01:12:57.350 --> 01:12:58.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, yeah.
[01:12:58.710 --> 01:13:09.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, I could only be, you know, interviewed for a maximum of an hour, you know, because I... but to be able to tell us, you know, your whole story on a commercial radio station is not possible.
[01:13:10.010 --> 01:13:11.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: But you know what I'm going to throw in?
[01:13:12.310 --> 01:13:23.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: For anyone that decides to contribute to the cause for WBAI, what I'll also do is throw in my lockpick business card, which is kind of cool.
[01:13:23.770 --> 01:13:34.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: So what I'll do is I'll, you know, when you tell me who, you know, who's participated, I will send you the whatever number of business cards you need, and then you could include those in the package.
[01:13:34.850 --> 01:13:39.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you're saying everybody who calls in and pledges tonight, in addition, will get one of your lockpicking business cards?
[01:13:40.370 --> 01:13:40.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly.
[01:13:40.930 --> 01:13:41.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[01:13:41.050 --> 01:13:44.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll send them to you, of course, and you can, you know, work out the logistics of getting to them.
[01:13:44.710 --> 01:13:44.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, yeah.
[01:13:45.110 --> 01:13:47.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And now it's not illegal to have one of these, is it?
[01:13:49.270 --> 01:13:50.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess you'll find out.
[01:13:51.810 --> 01:13:55.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, it's a business card, but it's also a lockpick.
[01:13:55.450 --> 01:13:57.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, wow, it's actually...
[01:13:57.990 --> 01:14:00.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe Bernie knows the answer to that one.
[01:14:00.730 --> 01:14:01.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[01:14:01.390 --> 01:14:08.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: In my state, Philadelphia, Kevin, Pennsylvania, rather, it is not a criminal offense to have.
[01:14:08.770 --> 01:14:11.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's the whole possession of tools of crime thing.
[01:14:11.630 --> 01:14:14.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's all in the context of the situation you're possessing them in.
[01:14:14.810 --> 01:14:21.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so in this case, you know, just to show that there was intent to use them in some illegal way would be a real stretch.
[01:14:21.330 --> 01:14:27.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I highly doubt any of our listeners are going to get into trouble for possessing your business card, which is really neat.
[01:14:27.570 --> 01:14:29.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a whole lockpick set, which you can break apart.
[01:14:30.870 --> 01:14:34.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it fits in your wallet, and you have a whole set of lockpicks at your disposal.
[01:14:34.930 --> 01:14:38.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so everybody who has called in so far and pledged, you're also getting that.
[01:14:38.350 --> 01:14:38.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: You don't have to call back.
[01:14:39.130 --> 01:14:49.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: And everybody who calls in from this point on, in addition to the movie and the book and the bumper sticker, you're now getting a lockpicking set in the form of a business card.
[01:14:50.850 --> 01:14:58.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: And for those of you who pledged 125, in addition to that, you're getting a whole bunch of DVDs, a dozen DVDs from the various HOPE conferences involving Kevin Mitnick.
[01:14:58.550 --> 01:14:59.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:15:00.210 --> 01:15:06.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: If that doesn't bring a whole bunch of calls in, I don't know what we can possibly do to convince you that this is a worthy cause.
[01:15:06.750 --> 01:15:10.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is something that people need to step up and be counted.
[01:15:10.350 --> 01:15:12.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:15:12.510 --> 01:15:13.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have three calls on the line.
[01:15:13.430 --> 01:15:13.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's great.
[01:15:13.790 --> 01:15:15.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: We should have seven calls on the line.
[01:15:15.590 --> 01:15:16.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are a lot of people out there.
[01:15:16.770 --> 01:15:18.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of people are listening to this.
[01:15:18.070 --> 01:15:19.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of people are benefiting from the knowledge.
[01:15:20.470 --> 01:15:25.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this kind of thing needs to be supported and encouraged that we can tell things like this in the future.
[01:15:25.370 --> 01:15:25.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Rob?
[01:15:25.650 --> 01:15:30.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: I should point out for people who've never seen Kevin's business card that it's a business card.
[01:15:30.290 --> 01:15:32.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you break it apart in a certain way, then it becomes lockpicks.
[01:15:32.790 --> 01:15:33.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: So what we're sending you is a business card.
[01:15:34.030 --> 01:15:35.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's up to you if you want to make it into lockpicks.
[01:15:35.510 --> 01:15:35.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: I see.
[01:15:36.090 --> 01:15:36.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:15:36.410 --> 01:15:38.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: So that's what we're ducking behind.
[01:15:38.230 --> 01:15:38.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, good.
[01:15:38.650 --> 01:15:38.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Fine.
[01:15:39.430 --> 01:15:40.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: That works.
[01:15:40.770 --> 01:15:42.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a creative business card, though.
[01:15:42.250 --> 01:15:44.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have one myself, and I'm still free.
[01:15:44.250 --> 01:15:46.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah, obviously you won't get in trouble just for having it.
[01:15:46.330 --> 01:15:47.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: But be careful what you do with it.
[01:15:48.350 --> 01:15:50.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, you know, everyone really should.
[01:15:50.450 --> 01:15:58.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyone who hasn't called in at all during this fundraiser or maybe has thought in the past, you know, maybe next time, next time, you know, there may not be a next time.
[01:15:58.670 --> 01:15:59.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's no next time.
[01:15:59.350 --> 01:15:59.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly.
[01:15:59.710 --> 01:16:01.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we're just doing this tonight.
[01:16:01.210 --> 01:16:05.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin, we only have about another 40 minutes, and then Kevin's going to sleep.
[01:16:05.130 --> 01:16:08.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's over there in Spain where it's, what, 3 o'clock in the morning over there, Kevin?
[01:16:08.850 --> 01:16:09.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's ridiculous.
[01:16:09.550 --> 01:16:10.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: 2.17 a.m.
[01:16:10.810 --> 01:16:12.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's way late.
[01:16:12.210 --> 01:16:13.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, of course, that's normal for you.
[01:16:13.370 --> 01:16:14.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: You stay up all night usually, right?
[01:16:14.830 --> 01:16:16.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, definitely, you know.
[01:16:16.310 --> 01:16:20.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, you guys don't want me to have to create content for the second version of the book, do you?
[01:16:20.970 --> 01:16:22.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: So let's keep it just one book, please.
[01:16:23.390 --> 01:16:29.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think you have an unending supply of stories, and you certainly prove it with the 400 or so pages of this book.
[01:16:29.950 --> 01:16:39.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Again, a pledge of $75 gets you the brand-new Kevin Mitnick book coming out next month, the story of his life and all the things that he wasn't allowed to tell you before.
[01:16:39.730 --> 01:16:45.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get the two-hour documentary plus about three hours of extras, Freedom Down Time.
[01:16:45.230 --> 01:16:47.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get a bumper sticker.
[01:16:47.650 --> 01:16:49.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get the lock-picking business card.
[01:16:49.630 --> 01:16:50.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's all for a pledge of $75.
[01:16:51.190 --> 01:16:51.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: What a great deal.
[01:16:51.810 --> 01:16:54.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950 for a pledge of $125.
[01:16:54.510 --> 01:17:06.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: You get all of that, plus the DVD set of Hope Talks involving Kevin, including his keynote address, including the informants panel, including his lawyer in 1997, all kinds of things.
[01:17:06.950 --> 01:17:09.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin has been sort of a theme of the Hope Conference.
[01:17:09.390 --> 01:17:17.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was back in 1994 when we first started that you were actually on the run because of that July 4th, 1994 story by John Markoff on the front page of the New York Times.
[01:17:17.570 --> 01:17:24.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: You couldn't go to the first Hope Conference, but you were calling in occasionally and talking to us on various phones, and we didn't know where you were.
[01:17:25.010 --> 01:17:31.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you're still a part of it to this day, and we'll be in the future as long as we continue having conferences.
[01:17:32.330 --> 01:17:37.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: But your story just is so compelling and something I think we can all identify with.
[01:17:37.610 --> 01:17:38.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Four calls on the line.
[01:17:38.730 --> 01:17:40.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:17:41.650 --> 01:17:42.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's the phone number.
[01:17:43.150 --> 01:17:45.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: I would like to play another excerpt.
[01:17:45.850 --> 01:17:48.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: This comes from the Last Hope.
[01:17:48.490 --> 01:17:49.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is it the Last Hope?
[01:17:49.370 --> 01:17:49.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I'm sorry.
[01:17:49.870 --> 01:17:54.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the Fifth Hope, back in 2004.
[01:17:54.950 --> 01:18:02.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: The story of some of what Kevin did in early parts of his life and things that were a bit inspirational.
[01:18:02.570 --> 01:18:07.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: I would love to see a flurry of phone calls come in while we're playing this excerpt.
[01:18:08.030 --> 01:18:09.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's very important that we hear from you.
[01:18:09.610 --> 01:18:12.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's why we're here tonight, because of our listeners.
[01:18:12.470 --> 01:18:14.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: This station has existed since 1960.
[01:18:15.230 --> 01:18:25.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, if you go through the FM dial, you will find every single frequency in this city has changed formats, changed ownership, done different things, has not found its niche yet.
[01:18:25.830 --> 01:18:27.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: WBAI, we've been doing this since 1960.
[01:18:27.750 --> 01:18:32.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've had thousands of different radio programs on in that period of time.
[01:18:32.470 --> 01:18:34.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Imagine the communities that have been served.
[01:18:34.290 --> 01:18:36.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Imagine the communities that have been strengthened as a result of that.
[01:18:36.770 --> 01:18:41.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: And in all that time, not one single commercial, because you, our listeners, are the sponsors.
[01:18:41.630 --> 01:18:44.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:18:44.390 --> 01:18:48.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, everyone, you should remember, in a world like this, everyone, people vote with their pockets.
[01:18:48.870 --> 01:18:51.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you don't donate to the station, it might not be there in the future.
[01:18:51.830 --> 01:18:55.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you don't donate during the show that you might like, it might not be on next week.
[01:18:56.090 --> 01:19:00.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or future fundraisers, you might have automated just recordings going on.
[01:19:00.370 --> 01:19:07.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Instead of, you know, getting, hearing very interesting, informative stories from people that you'd never hear on commercial radio.
[01:19:07.430 --> 01:19:08.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: We take credit cards.
[01:19:08.430 --> 01:19:10.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: We do the monthly billing thing.
[01:19:10.230 --> 01:19:11.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: All kinds of options.
[01:19:12.610 --> 01:19:22.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, if you can afford a Big Mac or going to movies or things like that, why not consider making WBAI as important, at least to you, to preserve that, to keep that going?
[01:19:22.870 --> 01:19:28.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because it really doesn't cost very much more than what people do in normal day-to-day life.
[01:19:28.890 --> 01:19:32.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: And WBAI should be a part of everyone's normal day-to-day life, I think.
[01:19:32.970 --> 01:19:34.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:19:34.670 --> 01:19:35.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are five calls on the line.
[01:19:35.810 --> 01:19:36.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Great response so far.
[01:19:37.250 --> 01:19:38.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please keep those calls coming in.
[01:19:38.770 --> 01:19:44.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's go back to 2004 and listen to what Kevin had to say at the Fifth Hope Conference.
[01:19:45.510 --> 01:19:47.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we have so much more to come.
[01:19:47.190 --> 01:19:48.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have the Off The Hook show later tonight.
[01:19:48.830 --> 01:19:50.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have Steve Wozniak tomorrow.
[01:19:50.890 --> 01:19:51.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Joe will be out for Sunday.
[01:19:52.530 --> 01:19:58.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: But now, for today, we have something that we have never been able to have before.
[01:19:58.490 --> 01:20:02.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because back in the first Hope, back in 1994, Kevin was in prison.
[01:20:03.230 --> 01:20:06.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: And after that, actually, no, in 1994, he was on the run.
[01:20:06.170 --> 01:20:07.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: In 1997, he was in prison.
[01:20:07.490 --> 01:20:10.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then there was always a reason for Kevin not to be here.
[01:20:11.130 --> 01:20:14.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: But there's no more reason for him not to be here.
[01:20:14.450 --> 01:20:16.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: So he is here, finally.
[01:20:16.230 --> 01:20:19.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is the culmination.
[01:20:19.810 --> 01:20:23.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's the reason we started the Hope Conference in the first place, to get Kevin Mitnick to New York.
[01:20:23.190 --> 01:20:24.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, well, we did it.
[01:20:25.330 --> 01:20:27.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: I also just want to intro a couple of really special people.
[01:20:28.490 --> 01:20:29.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin's mother and grandmother are here.
[01:20:30.750 --> 01:20:31.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's...
[01:20:36.770 --> 01:20:47.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: And throughout the entire ordeal of Kevin's imprisonment and prosecution, they have been the strength behind everything.
[01:20:48.030 --> 01:20:55.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: As far as Kevin standing up for his rights, just knowing that there are people out here supporting him, they have always been there, and they've been a real inspiration to me, too.
[01:20:55.730 --> 01:21:02.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just people who really understand what's going on, what he is accused of, what he did, what's unfair about it.
[01:21:03.170 --> 01:21:03.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's just...
[01:21:03.850 --> 01:21:08.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think that makes all the difference when you have people who give a damn, who are standing behind you.
[01:21:08.090 --> 01:21:10.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I just want to thank you two for being there and for being here.
[01:21:16.780 --> 01:21:21.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we can also say Kevin is the only hacker to bring his mom and grandmother to a conference.
[01:21:23.320 --> 01:21:23.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:21:24.440 --> 01:21:28.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: And with that, the words I've been wanting to speak for 10 years, ladies and gentlemen, Kevin Mitnick.
[01:21:31.940 --> 01:21:32.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thank you.
[01:21:32.980 --> 01:21:33.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks, Eric.
[01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:35.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Very good.
[01:21:42.030 --> 01:21:42.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[01:21:48.570 --> 01:21:50.090]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's finally good to be home.
[01:21:54.980 --> 01:21:57.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, first of all, I want to thank everyone for showing up for my talk.
[01:21:57.980 --> 01:22:05.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a great to be back home again, and I want to thank everyone for all their support they've given me over the years.
[01:22:06.160 --> 01:22:09.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: And today, my talk is going to be a little bit different.
[01:22:09.320 --> 01:22:21.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: I usually talk for companies and conventions and stuff like that, but I'm going to talk about me and the stuff that I've been through and where I'm going and some entertaining stories I think everyone will relate to and enjoy.
[01:22:21.860 --> 01:22:26.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anyway, and I guess I am the only first hacker to bring my mom and grandmother to a conference.
[01:22:26.980 --> 01:22:31.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, it's kind of interesting.
[01:22:32.280 --> 01:22:34.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anyway, I think I was born...
[01:22:34.780 --> 01:22:43.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, by the way, my talk is going to last for about probably an hour, 15 minutes to an hour and a half, and I'm going to have a 30-minute Q&A, just so everyone's aware of the time constraints here.
[01:22:43.800 --> 01:22:51.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think I was born as a hacker because at 10 years old, I was fascinated with magic.
[01:22:51.300 --> 01:22:52.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: I love illusions.
[01:22:52.360 --> 01:22:59.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I would hang out at the corner magic store for hours and hours just to find out the secret to a magic trick.
[01:22:59.680 --> 01:23:08.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: I always wanted a bite of the forbidden fruit, the forbidden apple, and I always was in pursuit of information that should be secret, but for entertainment.
[01:23:08.400 --> 01:23:09.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: I loved doing illusions.
[01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:12.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: I loved pulling pranks on friends and family.
[01:23:13.940 --> 01:23:23.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anyway, so about two years later, the first system I hacked wasn't a computer, wasn't a telephone, but was the Los Angeles RTD.
[01:23:24.360 --> 01:23:25.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know what RTD is?
[01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:27.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: The Rapid Transit District.
[01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:30.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, as a young kid, my hobby was riding buses.
[01:23:31.360 --> 01:23:35.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: I used to, like, ride buses around all the way through Los Angeles and San Bernardino.
[01:23:35.860 --> 01:23:41.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: My mom worked long hours as a single mother supporting me, so Kevin had to find something entertaining to do.
[01:23:42.500 --> 01:23:47.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, one day I'm sitting at the back of the bus, and I'm looking at the transfer.
[01:23:47.340 --> 01:23:50.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know how you could pay a certain fee and you could buy a transfer to transfer on a different line?
[01:23:51.160 --> 01:23:56.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm looking at it, and it has a special punch, and it's punched with a date and the direction you're going.
[01:23:57.260 --> 01:23:59.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you could use this as a ticket to get on the next bus.
[01:24:00.160 --> 01:24:04.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I'm thinking to myself, about 11, 11 and a half years old, this is kind of interesting.
[01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:12.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I go up to the bus driver, as I'm about to get off the bus, and I go, hey, sir, where do you get these punches?
[01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:16.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm doing a special project for school, and I like the kind of shapes these are.
[01:24:17.040 --> 01:24:18.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: These are really cool shapes.
[01:24:18.160 --> 01:24:19.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: Where can I buy one of these punches?
[01:24:20.740 --> 01:24:23.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he told me the name of the store in downtown Los Angeles.
[01:24:24.260 --> 01:24:26.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: I get that, that was the first time I did social engineering, 11 years old.
[01:24:28.120 --> 01:24:34.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I go to the store in downtown LA, and I buy myself a nice shiny punch, and I go, wow, this is cool, I can punch my own transfers.
[01:24:35.880 --> 01:24:37.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Problem was, is I didn't have any transfers.
[01:24:39.000 --> 01:24:46.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I was thinking, my grandmother lived about two miles away from the RTD bus depot, and I was thinking, you know, human nature, people are lazy.
[01:24:46.940 --> 01:24:53.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I think these bus drivers, probably after a long day of riding that bus, they take these transfers they haven't used, and they just throw it in the trash.
[01:24:54.540 --> 01:24:57.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, Kevin, at 11 and a half, became a dumpster diver.
[01:24:58.760 --> 01:25:02.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I went into the RTD trash and fished out all these blank transfers.
[01:25:02.680 --> 01:25:05.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I used to punch my own transfers and ride the bus system.
[01:25:06.000 --> 01:25:11.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bus drivers knew what I was doing, because they'd see me boarding the bus, and I'd have the outline of the punch, right?
[01:25:12.820 --> 01:25:16.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, I'd be so bold sometimes, to punch another transfer on the bus for somebody else.
[01:25:19.080 --> 01:25:22.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, and the driver thought it was cute, right?
[01:25:23.900 --> 01:25:25.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Everyone thought it was cute.
[01:25:25.400 --> 01:25:27.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: No one told me I was defrauding RTD, right?
[01:25:29.760 --> 01:25:37.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, I guess I have a little bit of photographic memory, because I actually ended up memorizing the entire schedule for every bus in Los Angeles County.
[01:25:37.360 --> 01:25:43.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, if I knew I had to go from point A to point B, I knew what time to be at what place, without referencing any type of schedule.
[01:25:44.620 --> 01:25:45.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that was kind of interesting.
[01:25:47.440 --> 01:25:50.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: One day I was riding the bus, and I met this other guy who was a ham radio operator.
[01:25:51.220 --> 01:25:56.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: And this bus driver says, hey, hey kid, I found this radio on the back of the bus.
[01:25:56.180 --> 01:25:56.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do you know what it is?
[01:25:56.680 --> 01:26:00.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he handed it up, held it up, held up an HT, Motorola HT.
[01:26:00.260 --> 01:26:01.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I go, oh, that's a police radio, I'm thinking.
[01:26:01.860 --> 01:26:03.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, that's cool, I'd like to listen to police.
[01:26:05.300 --> 01:26:07.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he goes, no, this is a ham radio.
[01:26:07.100 --> 01:26:10.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, he introduced me to the hobby of amateur radio.
[01:26:11.620 --> 01:26:16.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I was so intrigued, not with the radio, but of the auto patch capability.
[01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:18.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's making phone calls over radio.
[01:26:18.400 --> 01:26:19.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: I thought the auto patch was cool.
[01:26:19.960 --> 01:26:21.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: I could have this little HT handheld.
[01:26:21.900 --> 01:26:25.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is like 20 years ago, and I could dial any phone number.
[01:26:25.420 --> 01:26:28.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I thought that was, wow, I wouldn't be able to do that, right?
[01:26:30.080 --> 01:26:32.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I won't go into my auto patch stories.
[01:26:32.380 --> 01:26:33.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: That will be for the next talk.
[01:26:33.820 --> 01:26:42.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: But my most, the most fun I had with radio, before I get into phones and computers, was the drive up windows at McDonald's.
[01:26:44.540 --> 01:26:51.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because you can clip a wire in certain radios, like the Alinko radio, and you can go out of band and transmit on any frequency.
[01:26:52.340 --> 01:26:54.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, we used to have fun at McDonald's.
[01:26:54.220 --> 01:26:56.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, the customer drive up to the drive up window.
[01:26:56.920 --> 01:27:00.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we now become the McDonald's employee, because we have more power.
[01:27:01.660 --> 01:27:02.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can I take your order, sir?
[01:27:03.160 --> 01:27:04.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes, I like a Big Mac, Large Fry, Large Coke.
[01:27:05.240 --> 01:27:09.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, I'm sorry, we have changed our menu, and now we offer super taco, burritos.
[01:27:10.300 --> 01:27:12.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we don't offer any sodas anymore.
[01:27:12.500 --> 01:27:13.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's only juices.
[01:27:13.480 --> 01:27:14.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: We drive customers crazy.
[01:27:16.080 --> 01:27:20.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: We drive one McDonald's so crazy, that the manager came out.
[01:27:20.180 --> 01:27:22.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're like a block away doing this, right?
[01:27:22.980 --> 01:27:24.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Manager comes out.
[01:27:24.020 --> 01:27:25.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: He's looking in the parking lot.
[01:27:25.900 --> 01:27:27.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: He sees no one, right?
[01:27:28.260 --> 01:27:33.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he's looking around, and he's scratching his head, and he walks up to the speaker, right?
[01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:36.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he has his face on the speaker, and I go, what the hell are you looking at?
[01:27:37.140 --> 01:27:37.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: This guy...
[01:27:40.240 --> 01:27:41.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: This guy...
[01:27:41.040 --> 01:27:42.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Come back, 30 feet.
[01:27:48.040 --> 01:27:49.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Don't tell the FCC on me.
[01:27:49.580 --> 01:27:50.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: They already don't like me.
[01:27:53.160 --> 01:27:55.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, let's fast forward a little bit to high school.
[01:27:56.060 --> 01:27:57.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm a ham radio buff.
[01:27:57.320 --> 01:27:58.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm really into radio.
[01:27:58.280 --> 01:27:59.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm into playing with the auto patch.
[01:27:59.800 --> 01:28:04.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I meet this other kid, whose dad's a ham radio operator, and he was what they called a phone phreak.
[01:28:05.460 --> 01:28:09.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: So he wanted to borrow my radio in exchange for showing me stuff about phones.
[01:28:09.900 --> 01:28:11.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I could really care less at the time.
[01:28:11.640 --> 01:28:13.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: But then he started showing me some neat stuff.
[01:28:13.780 --> 01:28:22.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: How he can call a secret number in the phone company, and he can give the phone number, and the operator would immediately give the name and address without asking any questions.
[01:28:22.120 --> 01:28:23.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was called the CNA Bureau.
[01:28:23.720 --> 01:28:27.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: How he was able, he'd say, give me the name of a family member that has an unlisted telephone.
[01:28:28.120 --> 01:28:30.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he would call a bureau called the Numbub Bureau.
[01:28:31.120 --> 01:28:35.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he'd be able to sweet talk them out of getting an unlisted telephone number of a family member.
[01:28:36.620 --> 01:28:40.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the really thing that intrigued me is he said, I have this secret test number.
[01:28:40.740 --> 01:28:46.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: You call this test number, you hear a tone, and you put it in five digits, and you can call anywhere in the world for free.
[01:28:47.520 --> 01:28:48.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Later on, I found out that was Sprint.
[01:28:49.340 --> 01:28:50.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it wasn't calling for someone for free.
[01:28:51.020 --> 01:28:51.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Somebody was paying the bill.
[01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:53.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I'm a high school kid.
[01:28:53.320 --> 01:28:53.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: I didn't know.
[01:28:56.380 --> 01:29:00.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, when I started in phones, I was really learning about the telephone network.
[01:29:00.160 --> 01:29:01.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: I had a passion for technology.
[01:29:01.820 --> 01:29:03.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was just, it was fascinating.
[01:29:03.340 --> 01:29:13.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the people I read about, like John Draper, Captain Crunch, who I know is here, and Steve Wozniak, I read about their experiments with the phone system, and it kind of intrigued me.
[01:29:13.980 --> 01:29:15.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I wanted to learn more, more and more.
[01:29:17.020 --> 01:29:19.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, the route I took was a very risky route.
[01:29:21.080 --> 01:29:23.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: And this is where I first learned about social engineering.
[01:29:23.300 --> 01:29:27.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because to learn about the phone company wasn't like you can go down and get a manual.
[01:29:27.340 --> 01:29:31.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: I did read the Bell Technical journals at UCLA Library.
[01:29:31.360 --> 01:29:32.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: That was pretty cool.
[01:29:32.540 --> 01:29:41.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: But a lot of it was about pretending to be another employee, calling up another department within the phone company and sweet-talking them of how to do something.
[01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:43.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: Like, I have this customer's phone.
[01:29:43.300 --> 01:29:44.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Was it disconnected by mistake?
[01:29:44.400 --> 01:29:45.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: How do I reconnect it?
[01:29:45.580 --> 01:29:47.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then learning about their internal operations.
[01:29:47.680 --> 01:29:51.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's where I first learned about social engineering back in the late 70s.
[01:29:53.080 --> 01:29:54.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: But then I got a little bit more bold in that.
[01:29:54.900 --> 01:29:58.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: I really wanted to learn about the equipment.
[01:29:58.620 --> 01:29:59.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: How it worked.
[01:29:59.960 --> 01:30:14.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, in late one night, around one in the morning, I guess it's an action I still regret today, is a friend of mine who was also a phone phreaker at the time, decided we're going to take a self-guided tour of the Hollywood Gower Central Office in Hollywood,
[01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:15.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: California.
[01:30:15.320 --> 01:30:16.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, we acquired the door code.
[01:30:17.460 --> 01:30:20.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, we're in the central office and we're walking around.
[01:30:20.300 --> 01:30:21.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a nine-story building.
[01:30:21.680 --> 01:30:28.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And when I get to the fifth floor, this big, bulky security guard says, son?
[01:30:29.300 --> 01:30:29.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, yes?
[01:30:30.560 --> 01:30:31.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: He goes, who are you?
[01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:32.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, this is Adam.
[01:30:32.760 --> 01:30:34.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm with the Cosmos Center in San Diego.
[01:30:34.460 --> 01:30:37.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm just taking my friend here on a little tour of a phone company.
[01:30:37.140 --> 01:30:38.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: He's kind of interested in...
[01:30:38.060 --> 01:30:39.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: My friend looked 15 years old.
[01:30:39.960 --> 01:30:41.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: He says, do you have a badge?
[01:30:42.020 --> 01:30:43.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: I go, yeah, sure, no problem.
[01:30:43.140 --> 01:30:43.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I go to my wallet.
[01:30:44.580 --> 01:30:45.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, man, I just slept in my car.
[01:30:46.560 --> 01:30:47.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll go get it.
[01:30:47.140 --> 01:30:47.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll be right back.
[01:30:47.940 --> 01:30:48.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: He goes, no, no.
[01:30:48.700 --> 01:30:49.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: You come with me.
[01:30:50.100 --> 01:30:51.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Brings me up to the ninth floor.
[01:30:52.380 --> 01:30:53.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then there's other people there.
[01:30:54.560 --> 01:30:55.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they go, who are you?
[01:30:55.800 --> 01:30:56.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who do you work for?
[01:30:56.880 --> 01:30:57.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: The 20 questions.
[01:30:58.080 --> 01:30:59.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'm calm as can be.
[01:30:59.780 --> 01:31:00.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Work in the Cosmos Center.
[01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:01.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Here's the address.
[01:31:01.480 --> 01:31:02.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who's your supervisor?
[01:31:02.340 --> 01:31:06.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Give them the name of the supervisor because I already had memorized this information from before.
[01:31:06.960 --> 01:31:08.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: So he goes, well, I'm going to call your supervisor right now.
[01:31:09.240 --> 01:31:10.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: I go, well, it's two in the morning.
[01:31:10.760 --> 01:31:12.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: She's going to get pretty pissed off.
[01:31:12.320 --> 01:31:13.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: He goes, well, you don't have any idea.
[01:31:14.060 --> 01:31:14.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: We don't know who you are.
[01:31:15.620 --> 01:31:16.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, call the supervisor.
[01:31:17.480 --> 01:31:18.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: He counts on the phone.
[01:31:18.240 --> 01:31:20.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: He gets the supervisor's home phone number.
[01:31:21.380 --> 01:31:22.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Calls her at home.
[01:31:22.160 --> 01:31:22.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wakes her up.
[01:31:23.600 --> 01:31:26.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: And says, yeah, I have one of your employees here named Adam.
[01:31:26.440 --> 01:31:28.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he's giving a tour at two in the morning.
[01:31:28.860 --> 01:31:29.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's going on with this?
[01:31:31.300 --> 01:31:34.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And she somehow, she goes, oh yeah, I do have an Adam working for me.
[01:31:34.660 --> 01:31:38.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I said to the gentleman, the security guy, I said, well, can I talk to my boss?
[01:31:39.220 --> 01:31:40.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: So he goes, sure.
[01:31:40.140 --> 01:31:40.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he hands me the phone.
[01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:42.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I go, oh, hi.
[01:31:43.100 --> 01:31:44.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we're talking.
[01:31:44.120 --> 01:31:45.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: She's going, who are you?
[01:31:45.240 --> 01:31:48.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I say, yeah, I'm sorry that he interrupted your sleep.
[01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:51.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I will have that report, you know, Tuesday morning.
[01:31:51.500 --> 01:31:53.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, how'd your vacation go?
[01:31:53.580 --> 01:31:54.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And she's going, who are you?
[01:31:54.480 --> 01:31:54.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's your name?
[01:31:54.960 --> 01:31:55.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who are you?
[01:31:55.700 --> 01:31:56.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'm having a call.
[01:31:56.720 --> 01:32:00.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'm pressing it to my ear so they can't hear her side, right?
[01:32:02.280 --> 01:32:04.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I said, great, well, I'll see you Monday.
[01:32:05.240 --> 01:32:05.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Have a good day.
[01:32:05.960 --> 01:32:06.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I hang up the phone.
[01:32:07.780 --> 01:32:10.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I know I have 10 minutes to get out of there.
[01:32:10.820 --> 01:32:13.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I call and we go, see, I told you who I was.
[01:32:13.260 --> 01:32:14.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm really sorry I didn't have my badge.
[01:32:14.780 --> 01:32:16.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can you just, I'll just be another half hour.
[01:32:16.460 --> 01:32:17.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can I show my friend around the building?
[01:32:19.160 --> 01:32:20.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, okay, go ahead.
[01:32:20.620 --> 01:32:24.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: So we go and instead of going on a self-guided tour, I decided to make a beeline right out of that building.
[01:32:25.100 --> 01:32:26.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Go to the elevator down, out.
[01:32:26.800 --> 01:32:29.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: And my friend and I sit in a car across the street and we're just watching the door.
[01:32:30.200 --> 01:32:34.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: About 15 minutes later, that same guard bursts out of the door and he's looking all around.
[01:32:36.080 --> 01:32:36.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Crazy stuff.
[01:32:37.560 --> 01:32:45.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I caused so much, I guess, such a pain in the ass to the phone company that they eventually had to take out our telephone.
[01:32:45.780 --> 01:32:50.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was at home living with my mom as a teenager and the phone company actually removed our phone.
[01:32:51.160 --> 01:32:51.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can you imagine that?
[01:32:52.860 --> 01:32:54.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: They said, no phone for Mitnick.
[01:32:55.680 --> 01:32:57.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I was thinking, I go, this is not fair.
[01:32:58.480 --> 01:33:00.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I lived in Unit 13.
[01:33:00.600 --> 01:33:04.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they actually had it blocked off at line assignment, which is a special division of the phone company.
[01:33:04.940 --> 01:33:05.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: No phone.
[01:33:06.220 --> 01:33:06.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[01:33:07.160 --> 01:33:12.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I call up their facilities department and I tell them, there's a new unit being installed, 12B.
[01:33:14.300 --> 01:33:14.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay?
[01:33:16.620 --> 01:33:20.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: So someone might move into 12B shortly, so you just should allocate it if they need service.
[01:33:21.360 --> 01:33:23.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, the customer might install the phone there.
[01:33:24.160 --> 01:33:25.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: I wait about three days.
[01:33:25.700 --> 01:33:27.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: I go to the hardware store.
[01:33:27.200 --> 01:33:27.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Go get 12B.
[01:33:28.320 --> 01:33:29.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: Take off 13.
[01:33:29.720 --> 01:33:30.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Put on 12B.
[01:33:33.950 --> 01:33:35.490]  [SPEAKER_17]: Phone company was not happy.
[01:33:35.650 --> 01:33:37.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: About three months later they figured it out.
[01:33:37.350 --> 01:33:38.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: They yanked out that phone again.
[01:33:40.770 --> 01:33:44.810]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think anyone in that apartment building, they had to go through security before they could get a phone line.
[01:33:46.710 --> 01:33:48.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't know why these guys don't have a sense of humor.
[01:33:48.790 --> 01:33:48.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:33:49.930 --> 01:33:52.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: A sense of humor is so important in this world.
[01:33:52.750 --> 01:33:54.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Kevin, you certainly have demonstrated a sense of humor.
[01:33:54.630 --> 01:34:05.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, to extend that story a little bit, I believe, according to the book, when you made up that new address so you could get your phone back, you also changed your name.
[01:34:05.930 --> 01:34:07.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you remember the name that you changed to?
[01:34:08.410 --> 01:34:15.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, at first when I was talking to the business office at General Telephone, I identified myself as Jim Bond.
[01:34:16.670 --> 01:34:22.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I asked her, I go, I'd like to get a special number if possible.
[01:34:22.530 --> 01:34:25.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I don't remember at the time if they charged for that or if they did it for free.
[01:34:25.610 --> 01:34:28.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I said, I'd like a number that ends in 007.
[01:34:29.090 --> 01:34:35.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: So she found that the phone number 895-5007 was available.
[01:34:35.890 --> 01:34:36.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said, yeah, I'd like that number.
[01:34:37.050 --> 01:34:37.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'd like that number.
[01:34:37.890 --> 01:34:40.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: So she's about to complete the service order.
[01:34:40.330 --> 01:34:48.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said, oh, by the way, maybe we should use my full legal name, you know, for billing purposes, because, you know, I send the bills to my accountant.
[01:34:48.830 --> 01:34:50.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: My first name is James.
[01:34:50.730 --> 01:34:58.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, and she didn't bat an eyelash in, so I had the phone installed as James Bond, ending in 007.
[01:34:58.910 --> 01:35:04.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, of course, you know, telco security agents were livid when they figured this all out.
[01:35:05.490 --> 01:35:10.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, livid is definitely the word that describes it, and they certainly took it out on you in years to come.
[01:35:10.350 --> 01:35:11.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we'll get more into that in just a moment.
[01:35:12.050 --> 01:35:13.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I want to thank people who have been calling in.
[01:35:13.970 --> 01:35:15.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're within reach of $3,000.
[01:35:16.110 --> 01:35:19.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if we get a couple more calls, we're going to move past that.
[01:35:20.010 --> 01:35:20.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have to keep going, though.
[01:35:20.930 --> 01:35:22.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have to keep these calls coming in.
[01:35:22.830 --> 01:35:24.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're offering some incredible premiums tonight.
[01:35:25.510 --> 01:35:29.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin Mitnick's brand-new book, Ghost in the Wires.
[01:35:29.450 --> 01:35:31.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's coming out next month.
[01:35:31.190 --> 01:35:47.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's full of all kinds of stories of Kevin's life and adventures, evading authority and hacking systems and outsmarting bureaucrats and all kinds of things that we can really learn a lot from and be inspired by.
[01:35:47.250 --> 01:35:50.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: But a lot of really good life lessons to be learned as well.
[01:35:50.450 --> 01:36:00.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Again, a pledge of $75, you get an autographed copy of this brand-new book, plus the two-hour documentary, plus three hours of extras, called Freedom Down Time.
[01:36:00.470 --> 01:36:06.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll get a Kevin Mitnick bumper sticker, free Kevin bumper sticker, an authentic one, leftover from the late 1990s.
[01:36:06.890 --> 01:36:10.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: You'll also get Kevin's lock-picking business card.
[01:36:10.650 --> 01:36:15.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a business card that turns into a lock-pick, for those of you so inclined to have to use one.
[01:36:15.410 --> 01:36:22.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: For a pledge of $125, add in about a dozen DVD talks from the various HOPE conferences involving Kevin Mitnick in one way or another.
[01:36:23.030 --> 01:36:29.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you have some really interesting material here, things you will not see anywhere else, and you won't even see it on this station after tonight.
[01:36:29.590 --> 01:36:32.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: So please give a call to 212-209-2950.
[01:36:32.550 --> 01:36:33.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have one call on the line now.
[01:36:34.010 --> 01:36:35.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have room for about, I think, 10.
[01:36:36.510 --> 01:36:48.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the most important thing to remember, though, is that WBAI continues to broadcast off the Empire State Building to four states and to the entire world and the Internet because of your support.
[01:36:48.150 --> 01:36:50.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's been like that since 1960.
[01:36:50.290 --> 01:36:56.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we didn't have the Internet back then, but we certainly had a dedicated audience and a lot of things to say.
[01:36:56.590 --> 01:37:02.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the people that have walked through these doors over the decades, it's simply an incredible, incredible variety.
[01:37:02.510 --> 01:37:05.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so much has been accomplished as a result of that.
[01:37:06.130 --> 01:37:09.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Basically, it's an investment in the future by supporting the radio station.
[01:37:09.350 --> 01:37:17.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: So while we're talking about all these interesting things and offering all these amazing items, the real reason for you to be calling is because we're speaking to you.
[01:37:17.490 --> 01:37:26.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're hearing the message and you want to participate in this and you want to make sure that future generations are able to hear this kind of thing over the radio.
[01:37:26.330 --> 01:37:30.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not just about hacking, not just about computers, but alternative thought of all sorts.
[01:37:30.570 --> 01:37:32.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:37:33.190 --> 01:37:37.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you might be calling from a place that doesn't have a radio station like WBAI.
[01:37:37.510 --> 01:37:42.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: All the more reason to support this one so that you can continue to listen from wherever you are in the world.
[01:37:42.390 --> 01:37:45.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Almost any place doesn't have a radio station like WBAI, except New York.
[01:37:45.870 --> 01:37:46.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's true.
[01:37:46.370 --> 01:37:47.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: And New York does not have another place like this.
[01:37:48.070 --> 01:37:50.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: So please keep this one going.
[01:37:50.670 --> 01:37:52.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:37:52.670 --> 01:37:53.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mike, you lost the call.
[01:37:53.930 --> 01:37:54.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: We had one call on the line.
[01:37:54.810 --> 01:37:55.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now we have zero.
[01:37:55.910 --> 01:37:56.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: How did I do that?
[01:37:56.550 --> 01:37:57.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know how you did that.
[01:37:57.790 --> 01:37:59.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, maybe we can replace that call.
[01:38:00.630 --> 01:38:04.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: 212-209-2950 is the number to call to replace it.
[01:38:04.270 --> 01:38:09.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can pledge $75 and we will send you an autographed copy of Kevin's new book.
[01:38:09.370 --> 01:38:12.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'll send you a DVD copy of Freedom Downtime.
[01:38:12.630 --> 01:38:13.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'll send you a bumper sticker.
[01:38:13.910 --> 01:38:16.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you pledge $125, we'll send you all that.
[01:38:16.510 --> 01:38:23.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'll also send you a dozen DVDs from the HOPE conferences of talks related to Kevin Mitnick.
[01:38:23.630 --> 01:38:25.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can pledge more than that if you have it.
[01:38:25.790 --> 01:38:28.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can pledge less than that if you can't.
[01:38:28.370 --> 01:38:30.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is there a reason you left out the lockpicking business card?
[01:38:30.830 --> 01:38:33.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because it's not written down on my piece of paper is the reason.
[01:38:33.470 --> 01:38:34.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: We just added that.
[01:38:34.330 --> 01:38:35.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, all kinds of...
[01:38:35.670 --> 01:38:36.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we've got one call on the line.
[01:38:37.030 --> 01:38:37.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie?
[01:38:37.590 --> 01:38:39.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: 212-209-2950.
[01:38:39.290 --> 01:38:41.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie, I know you can bring in another two calls.
[01:38:41.230 --> 01:38:42.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm going to try, Emmanuel.
[01:38:42.470 --> 01:38:42.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[01:38:42.690 --> 01:38:43.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's kind of let you go.
[01:38:43.570 --> 01:38:51.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Our listeners must know that WBAI is almost certainly the only radio station that's going to bring you...
[01:38:51.610 --> 01:38:52.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, I got one already.
[01:38:52.570 --> 01:38:58.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: ...in-depth coverage of this fascinating epic hacker saga about Kevin Mitnick.
[01:38:58.510 --> 01:39:00.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: And on top of that...
[01:39:00.630 --> 01:39:01.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's the other one.
[01:39:01.230 --> 01:39:01.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: How do you do it?
[01:39:01.850 --> 01:39:02.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: You didn't give out the phone number.
[01:39:03.390 --> 01:39:03.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Incredible.
[01:39:04.170 --> 01:39:04.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, keep going.
[01:39:05.050 --> 01:39:06.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-209-2950.
[01:39:07.110 --> 01:39:07.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's another one.
[01:39:07.650 --> 01:39:23.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Besides this being a fascinating epic hacker saga that we're hearing about tonight, this book by Kevin, which you can get by calling that number, provides you with a historical context of how all that fits in with what's going on today.
[01:39:23.470 --> 01:39:41.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: And in addition to getting one of the first copies signed personally by Kevin Mitnick, you're getting some historical perspective by the two-hour film documentary, Freedom Downtime, which you produced, and did a fantastic job documenting what was going on at the time during Kevin's case.
[01:39:41.010 --> 01:39:53.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: And probably the most appropriate possible bookmark for this book is a historical Kevin Mitnick, or a free Kevin bumper sticker, which, you know, it's a piece of history.
[01:39:53.350 --> 01:39:57.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, of course, a set of Kevin Mitnick lockpicks in the form of a business card.
[01:39:57.470 --> 01:40:01.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or please call 212-209-2950.
[01:40:01.570 --> 01:40:05.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Get all of that for a pledge of $75 to support WBAI.
[01:40:05.310 --> 01:40:15.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you pledge $125, you get all of that, plus a dozen Hope DVDs that are all in some way connected with Kevin.
[01:40:15.310 --> 01:40:18.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Some talk or panel discussion connected with Kevin.
[01:40:18.590 --> 01:40:24.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: So this is really a thematic package to give you as a gift for supporting WBAI.
[01:40:24.410 --> 01:40:26.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-209-2950.
[01:40:26.530 --> 01:40:35.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've had eight Hope conferences, and nearly every one of them has had Kevin's presence in some way, either with his non-presence or with his actual participation.
[01:40:36.550 --> 01:40:43.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's been an important part, a theme, if you will, of the hacker world for the last couple of decades.
[01:40:43.550 --> 01:40:46.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Join the four calls on the line right now.
[01:40:46.110 --> 01:40:48.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know we have enough people down there to handle twice that.
[01:40:48.890 --> 01:41:00.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: So give a call, 212-209-2950, and show your support for the radio station, and show your support for Off The Hook, and just for alternative thought, rebelliousness, individuality, all that kind of thing.
[01:41:00.170 --> 01:41:02.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is your chance to vote for that.
[01:41:02.730 --> 01:41:10.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: And for all you mischievous hackers out there, just flood that tally room with as many calls as possible, just so they'll be running around like chickens without heads.
[01:41:10.590 --> 01:41:13.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, no, no, you have to actually pledge if you're going to call.
[01:41:13.390 --> 01:41:16.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or you pledge, you know, you don't have to, oh, all right, fine, then you order.
[01:41:16.250 --> 01:41:18.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you have to pay your pledge, too, and you have to use your credit card.
[01:41:19.370 --> 01:41:20.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, no shenanigans here.
[01:41:21.250 --> 01:41:22.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: WBAI doesn't benefit from your games.
[01:41:23.350 --> 01:41:24.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, they don't.
[01:41:24.770 --> 01:41:26.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:41:26.510 --> 01:41:27.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have some people to thank.
[01:41:27.990 --> 01:41:28.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mike, you want to start?
[01:41:29.190 --> 01:41:31.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Sure, let's start by thanking Nick, who's from Toronto.
[01:41:32.490 --> 01:41:32.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:41:33.550 --> 01:41:35.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have Daniel from Oklahoma.
[01:41:36.270 --> 01:41:38.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have got David from Ontario.
[01:41:38.950 --> 01:41:41.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, when did we stop naming cities?
[01:41:41.330 --> 01:41:42.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're naming states and provinces.
[01:41:43.310 --> 01:41:45.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't these people live in cities or towns?
[01:41:45.510 --> 01:41:49.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, they live in cities, but I'm sure not everyone knows of where Tulsa is.
[01:41:50.750 --> 01:41:51.150]  Really?
[01:41:51.550 --> 01:41:54.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think we might have heard of Tulsa.
[01:41:54.530 --> 01:41:54.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:41:55.290 --> 01:42:00.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, David is in Etobicoke, Ontario.
[01:42:00.390 --> 01:42:01.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, that we never heard of.
[01:42:01.450 --> 01:42:01.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[01:42:01.590 --> 01:42:02.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm certain of that.
[01:42:02.370 --> 01:42:02.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Voltaire.
[01:42:03.670 --> 01:42:04.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, hang on.
[01:42:04.530 --> 01:42:05.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Your mic's not on for some reason.
[01:42:06.190 --> 01:42:06.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Try now.
[01:42:06.850 --> 01:42:07.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kenneth from RedHack.
[01:42:07.870 --> 01:42:09.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, your mic has quit working.
[01:42:09.910 --> 01:42:10.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to have to use something else.
[01:42:11.110 --> 01:42:13.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: Kenneth from Brent Castle, Virginia.
[01:42:14.090 --> 01:42:14.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:42:14.830 --> 01:42:15.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: RedHack, welcome.
[01:42:15.890 --> 01:42:17.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello, I've been down in the tally room.
[01:42:17.850 --> 01:42:20.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, keeping things under control.
[01:42:20.250 --> 01:42:20.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Trying to.
[01:42:21.070 --> 01:42:21.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[01:42:21.990 --> 01:42:24.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'd like to thank Ray from Phoenix, Arizona.
[01:42:24.890 --> 01:42:25.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:42:25.310 --> 01:42:26.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: I want to thank Jason.
[01:42:26.510 --> 01:42:29.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's calling from Sihung in South Korea.
[01:42:30.050 --> 01:42:31.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, beat that.
[01:42:31.330 --> 01:42:31.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:42:31.550 --> 01:42:33.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got people from South Korea listening.
[01:42:33.170 --> 01:42:33.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Represent there.
[01:42:34.970 --> 01:42:36.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:42:36.790 --> 01:42:42.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: And country code one, for those of you calling from outside the area, in case you didn't know the United States was country code number one.
[01:42:42.810 --> 01:42:44.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:42:44.670 --> 01:42:45.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks, everybody, for calling in.
[01:42:45.730 --> 01:42:46.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have more people to thank.
[01:42:46.570 --> 01:42:48.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: We want to thank Kaven from New York.
[01:42:48.870 --> 01:42:49.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: New York City.
[01:42:49.870 --> 01:42:50.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: New York City.
[01:42:50.350 --> 01:42:52.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm being inclusive here.
[01:42:52.430 --> 01:42:52.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[01:42:52.590 --> 01:42:52.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[01:42:52.890 --> 01:42:57.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: And add in another thanks for probably the only other person from New York we've been thanking so far is Rita from Manhattan.
[01:42:58.210 --> 01:42:58.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:42:59.050 --> 01:43:00.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Nathan from Olympia, Washington.
[01:43:01.430 --> 01:43:02.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you, Nathan.
[01:43:02.450 --> 01:43:05.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Christina from Beckley, West Virginia.
[01:43:05.530 --> 01:43:06.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: West Virginia.
[01:43:07.050 --> 01:43:07.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you.
[01:43:07.270 --> 01:43:07.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:43:09.050 --> 01:43:11.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Brendan from Brooklyn, New York.
[01:43:11.270 --> 01:43:11.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you, Brendan.
[01:43:11.850 --> 01:43:14.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we want to thank Adam, who's from Holmdale, New Jersey.
[01:43:14.730 --> 01:43:15.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[01:43:15.650 --> 01:43:16.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do I have the last one?
[01:43:16.730 --> 01:43:16.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes.
[01:43:17.370 --> 01:43:18.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thomas from Briarwood, New York.
[01:43:19.070 --> 01:43:19.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:43:19.450 --> 01:43:22.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: And there are more people calling in right now, and we want to keep those calls coming in.
[01:43:22.510 --> 01:43:26.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we want to thank them as well, although we probably won't have time to do so by name.
[01:43:26.650 --> 01:43:29.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, if you call now and make your pledge, maybe we'll have time to thank you.
[01:43:29.450 --> 01:43:35.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: We only have about 15 minutes left, so we have a lot of material to cover in that time.
[01:43:35.530 --> 01:43:38.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Kevin, there's something I wanted to bring up with you.
[01:43:38.690 --> 01:43:43.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: We were talking about a sense of humor and maybe also mutual respect.
[01:43:43.750 --> 01:43:48.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's a part of your book where you're talking about a Bell security investigator named Daryl Santos.
[01:43:49.470 --> 01:43:51.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is the part of the book that I found very interesting.
[01:43:52.110 --> 01:44:00.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: You say much later in an interview for this book, Santos would recall this was a real big deal for us because now it hit home.
[01:44:00.750 --> 01:44:01.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was personal.
[01:44:01.530 --> 01:44:07.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin was listening to our calls when we were in the business of trying to listen to his case calls.
[01:44:08.010 --> 01:44:12.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Then he has our intercepts on his lines taken down.
[01:44:12.650 --> 01:44:16.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it made us really change how we spoke on the phone and the messages we left.
[01:44:16.550 --> 01:44:24.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we had to create some new ways to cover our tracks because we also had to protect the integrity of what law enforcement was doing with us, all of their court ordered stuff.
[01:44:24.610 --> 01:44:34.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: It sounds like this guy in the end wound up respecting your skills and your abilities and sort of seeing you as a worthy adversary.
[01:44:34.850 --> 01:44:41.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it also speaks to how you were simply trying to find out what the authorities were doing to you.
[01:44:42.410 --> 01:44:42.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[01:44:43.150 --> 01:44:55.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, what had happened is I started associating with this guy named Eric Hines, uh, who contacted me through a family members, uh, through my, uh, uh, my stepbrother's, uh, girlfriend.
[01:44:56.670 --> 01:45:03.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, what Eric turned out to be as he was working for the government, but I didn't figure it out for several weeks.
[01:45:03.950 --> 01:45:11.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, I had to do a lot of, uh, phone tricks and a lot of an investigation, uh, to figure out what was going on.
[01:45:11.190 --> 01:45:27.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then, then it hit home as I, I was thinking, geez, if this guy is an FBI agent or informant, maybe they're monitoring the telephones at my dad's apartment because I was, uh, actually at my dad's and in Los Angeles at the time, because my half brother had,
[01:45:27.710 --> 01:45:28.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: uh, just passed away.
[01:45:29.110 --> 01:45:35.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so I decided I would call, now my dad had three lines at the, at the house.
[01:45:35.070 --> 01:45:50.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I decided I'd call the central office in Calabasas, which was, uh, a five E, a five E S S office and, um, and try to find out if there were any, uh, security, uh, monitoring boxes in use.
[01:45:50.530 --> 01:45:54.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I called the frame technician posing at security in Los Angeles.
[01:45:55.130 --> 01:46:03.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: And eventually I found out that they indeed had three boxes that were monitoring some subscriber, uh, in Calabasas.
[01:46:03.610 --> 01:46:07.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: So immediately I thought, oh my God, that those are my dad's lines.
[01:46:07.970 --> 01:46:10.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm going to get my supervised release violated.
[01:46:10.750 --> 01:46:11.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm on my way back to prison.
[01:46:12.050 --> 01:46:13.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: I got to figure out what's going on.
[01:46:13.510 --> 01:46:22.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I had the frame tech trace out the connection, uh, to, you know, there's actually two connections to the monitor box.
[01:46:22.170 --> 01:46:25.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: One was an incoming connection where Pac Bell security was calling into.
[01:46:25.650 --> 01:46:28.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the other connection was to the target line.
[01:46:28.350 --> 01:46:33.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, I had the technician trace out all the, all the connections to these monitoring devices.
[01:46:33.810 --> 01:46:36.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it turned out that they weren't on my dad's lines.
[01:46:37.050 --> 01:46:42.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: They were on a PI, a company that had private investigation, uh, known as Teltec.
[01:46:43.030 --> 01:46:47.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, I remember going home that night and telling my dad, oh, I'm so happy.
[01:46:47.790 --> 01:46:52.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: I thought we were being wiretapped, but it turned out they were on this company called Teltec.
[01:46:52.690 --> 01:47:00.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: And my dad rolls his eyes thinking, you know, I'm living in some fantasy world that I could actually check to see if our lines were being wiretapped.
[01:47:00.810 --> 01:47:07.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: But back then you could, because they had to make physical connections on the frame to the subscriber lines.
[01:47:07.490 --> 01:47:09.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: And today it's like Kalia is done in a different way.
[01:47:10.250 --> 01:47:15.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I told my dad about, I told my dad the story and he goes, wait a second, Teltec.
[01:47:15.370 --> 01:47:17.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: He goes, I know one of the, one of the managers that works there.
[01:47:17.990 --> 01:47:22.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he called the manager over and, uh, I told him the story.
[01:47:22.030 --> 01:47:23.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he was like flabbergasted.
[01:47:24.170 --> 01:47:28.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: He, first of all, he looked at me thinking, you know, what does this kid know?
[01:47:28.530 --> 01:47:29.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: What, you know, what's he talking about?
[01:47:29.770 --> 01:47:33.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I demoed some of my phone tricks to him and he became a true believer.
[01:47:34.430 --> 01:47:42.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, then, uh, a week later or so I had found out that they actually moved the wiretap.
[01:47:42.810 --> 01:47:46.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the details are in the book ghost and the wires of how I figured this out.
[01:47:46.550 --> 01:47:49.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they actually moved the wiretap over to my dad's lines.
[01:47:50.170 --> 01:47:56.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I remember, um, I was kind of irritated with the phone company.
[01:47:56.450 --> 01:47:57.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: They were actually wiretapping my dad.
[01:47:58.110 --> 01:48:00.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I decided to actually take the Internet down.
[01:48:01.310 --> 01:48:06.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, uh, I didn't actually have them just removed from my dad's lines.
[01:48:06.530 --> 01:48:12.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: I actually had them put up, put on just innocent subscriber lines, actually had them move to somebody else.
[01:48:12.270 --> 01:48:15.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it took them a while to figure out that the taps were actually moved.
[01:48:16.070 --> 01:48:17.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: They started investigating it.
[01:48:18.190 --> 01:48:25.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, the person at the frame told, you know, security, Oh, somebody from here, you know, security in Los Angeles called and had us move the taps.
[01:48:25.610 --> 01:48:34.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: But then it hit home because the people in Los Angeles never called to do any type of wiretaps because that was all done for Northern California.
[01:48:34.990 --> 01:48:43.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they were pretty, uh, pretty surprised that not only did I figure out that our lines were being tapped, but I actually moved them.
[01:48:44.370 --> 01:48:45.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's chutzpah.
[01:48:45.350 --> 01:48:45.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Definitely.
[01:48:45.910 --> 01:48:47.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's no, no question about that.
[01:48:47.550 --> 01:48:54.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, now, you know, I, I know a lot of people would look at your exploits and say, wow, you know, you deserve to go away for a long time because you're messing with law enforcement and investigations.
[01:48:54.910 --> 01:49:06.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: But really you were, you were simply looking into your own, uh, investigations against you and sort of, uh, playing a battle of wits with these people, but never actually causing damage or profiting in any way.
[01:49:06.890 --> 01:49:12.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, you listened in on, on the NSA at some point when, uh, very few people even knew of their existence.
[01:49:12.730 --> 01:49:14.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: That, that, that, that's true, right?
[01:49:15.350 --> 01:49:18.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, let me check and make sure the statute of limitations is expired.
[01:49:18.890 --> 01:49:19.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hold on one second.
[01:49:20.170 --> 01:49:21.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I was talking to Bernie.
[01:49:21.450 --> 01:49:21.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie.
[01:49:21.830 --> 01:49:21.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:49:21.930 --> 01:49:22.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:49:22.070 --> 01:49:22.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's true.
[01:49:22.630 --> 01:49:22.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right?
[01:49:23.890 --> 01:49:24.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:49:25.030 --> 01:49:25.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, uh, no.
[01:49:25.630 --> 01:49:25.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:49:26.010 --> 01:49:29.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, the, it's in the book, it's in the book, uh, all kinds of stories like that.
[01:49:29.830 --> 01:49:31.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, uh, yeah, that's true.
[01:49:31.670 --> 01:49:39.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was actually able to intercept a NSA, an in progress NSA phone call by, uh, manipulating the switch in Laurel, Maryland.
[01:49:39.970 --> 01:49:44.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: But as a, as a result of all this, and please, uh, continue calling 212-209-2950.
[01:49:44.970 --> 01:49:46.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have, uh, we had five calls on the line a moment ago.
[01:49:46.950 --> 01:49:47.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now we hit down to two.
[01:49:48.010 --> 01:49:53.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, please give a call now and, and get this autographed copy of Kevin's new book, 212-209-2950.
[01:49:54.130 --> 01:50:05.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: But as a result of all these abilities that you had in ways that you just, uh, pretty much walked right up to the person they were least expected to walk right up to and, and challenged them and outsmarted them and got information from them.
[01:50:05.890 --> 01:50:19.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, this resulted in you achieving almost superhuman status in, in the media and people would, uh, basically blame anything that happened to technology, uh, uh, adversely on you.
[01:50:19.470 --> 01:50:27.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I was wondering if maybe you could think of a few, uh, Mitnick myths that were out there where you basically got blamed for completely incredible things.
[01:50:27.550 --> 01:50:31.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, being able to whistle the launch codes for NORAD comes to mind.
[01:50:31.810 --> 01:50:38.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, I got accused of, uh, planting a false news wire about security Pacific bank losing a 400 million.
[01:50:39.150 --> 01:50:41.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: I got accused of hacking into Xerox.
[01:50:41.470 --> 01:50:48.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: I got accused of, um, actually wiretapping the conversations of the FBI, which never really happened.
[01:50:49.170 --> 01:50:50.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, geez.
[01:50:50.270 --> 01:51:04.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, there's just so much, even, even that phone company security agent that was interviewed in the book actually said that any phone, any company that had an intrusion, they, they immediately thought I had done it, you know, without any evidence whatsoever.
[01:51:05.110 --> 01:51:06.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, it had to be Mitnick.
[01:51:06.470 --> 01:51:16.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: So pretty much I was the guy that, you know, got, got blamed initially until probably they investigated it and found out that indeed was not me.
[01:51:16.610 --> 01:51:21.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, something else I want to, uh, touch upon again, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[01:51:21.030 --> 01:51:21.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please call in and pledge.
[01:51:22.530 --> 01:51:23.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, you, you had, I'm sorry.
[01:51:23.810 --> 01:51:25.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have just seven minutes left.
[01:51:25.190 --> 01:51:25.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Seven minutes left.
[01:51:25.830 --> 01:51:28.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: So please, uh, it's, it's an urgent appeal at this point.
[01:51:28.630 --> 01:51:38.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, reading the book, I, I learned that you actually have some ties and this is a sort of apropos because we have the, the, uh, the German hacker camp coming up in, in, in just, uh, two weeks or so.
[01:51:38.490 --> 01:51:43.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the, uh, chaos computer club, you had, uh, some ties to them back in the 1980s.
[01:51:43.750 --> 01:51:44.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[01:51:44.290 --> 01:51:48.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: In fact, uh, they, they developed a stealth patch to the VMS operating system.
[01:51:48.770 --> 01:51:51.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, they modified, uh, two system programs.
[01:51:51.930 --> 01:51:53.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: One was called login out and one was called show.
[01:51:54.730 --> 01:52:07.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, what they, it was pretty much, um, a Trojan, uh, you know, kind of a, a Trojan and, you know, and a, and a clever backdoor into the VMS operating system if you could replace these two programs.
[01:52:07.090 --> 01:52:09.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I was actually, and it was done very cleverly.
[01:52:10.010 --> 01:52:24.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Even digital equipment corporation was actually, uh, you know, complimentary about the sophistication of this type of work, you know, and we're dealing, you know, we're talking about 1985, you know, today it would be, you know, you know, it wouldn't be anything special.
[01:52:24.970 --> 01:52:26.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, it wasn't Stuxnet.
[01:52:27.070 --> 01:52:44.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, um, and, uh, what had happened is I, I, I thought, well, you know, how I, I found these patches was, you know, when I hacked into digital's, uh, equipment corporations, VMS engineering groups, uh, systems, I got into Andy Goldstein's email and Andy was one of the,
[01:52:44.490 --> 01:52:46.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: you know, leading gurus of VMS.
[01:52:46.630 --> 01:53:03.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, I, I was looking, you know, I was looking in his email just for security related stuff and came across an analysis of the computer, uh, computer, uh, uh, chaos clubs, uh, you know, patch to log in out and show and, you know, and I was impressed with it.
[01:53:03.350 --> 01:53:11.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I decided, Hey, I'm going to try to contact the CCC myself and see if I could find out the author of these, uh, of these patches.
[01:53:11.910 --> 01:53:19.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I actually tracked down one of the guys, uh, who was in a hospital dying of cancer at the time.
[01:53:19.230 --> 01:53:29.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I don't recall the gentleman's name, but he was actually surprised that here, Kevin Mitnick was calling from America to congratulate him on, you know, work well done.
[01:53:29.810 --> 01:53:36.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, and then he said, well, he had, you know, he had a whole bunch of other stuff that he would like to share with me, but didn't have a computer at the hospital.
[01:53:36.170 --> 01:53:41.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: So actually snail mailed me a whole bunch of stuff that they were doing with the VMS operating system, which was quite cool.
[01:53:41.350 --> 01:53:41.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[01:53:42.210 --> 01:53:55.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: It just goes to show how these worlds just merged together and how all the hackers of the world, uh, eventually find each other and share information and, uh, and, and move society in one direction or another.
[01:53:56.170 --> 01:54:01.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, it's, it's an incredible, uh, story and it's one that, that you've told so brilliantly in, uh, Ghost in the Wires.
[01:54:02.090 --> 01:54:04.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Again, Kevin Mitnick's new book coming out next month.
[01:54:04.890 --> 01:54:05.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please give us a call now.
[01:54:05.930 --> 01:54:07.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the last five minutes of the program.
[01:54:07.570 --> 01:54:44.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Your last opportunity to get this autographed copy of the brand new book, uh, by pledging $75 for this and a, uh, the, the, uh, movie freedom downtime and, uh, the lock picking simply been an incredible night.
[01:54:44.510 --> 01:54:45.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: We can go for another two hours.
[01:54:45.590 --> 01:54:53.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd love to, all kinds of things we can talk about, but imagine you have this book, you're able to read this for hours and hours on end and the stories never stop.
[01:54:53.430 --> 01:54:55.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, it's an incredible thing.
[01:54:55.190 --> 01:54:57.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:54:57.350 --> 01:54:58.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Take advantage of this.
[01:54:58.590 --> 01:55:00.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, it's a, it's a one time offer.
[01:55:00.430 --> 01:55:06.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now folks, uh, it happens every week and so don't be the, you know, one of these people left behind like this.
[01:55:06.530 --> 01:55:09.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: We always get emails saying, oh, I want, dude, this is amazing.
[01:55:09.890 --> 01:55:10.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is it.
[01:55:10.650 --> 01:55:10.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is it.
[01:55:11.010 --> 01:55:12.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Can you make an exception for me?
[01:55:12.390 --> 01:55:12.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:55:12.670 --> 01:55:13.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: And no, we can't.
[01:55:13.710 --> 01:55:14.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: We can't.
[01:55:14.210 --> 01:55:19.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: We can't because, uh, this kind of a thing, if we were to offer this all the time, we'd all go broke because this is a great deal.
[01:55:20.550 --> 01:55:21.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:55:21.970 --> 01:55:25.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have to call in the next four minutes or it's, uh, it's all over.
[01:55:25.490 --> 01:55:28.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's really, uh, uh, the way it is, the unfortunate reality, right?
[01:55:29.170 --> 01:55:29.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:55:29.650 --> 01:55:40.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, this is such a seminal chapter in a hacker history, whether you're a hacker or whether you're not, um, this is pretty much the best reference material that there is available for, um, to learn more about this, uh, period in our history.
[01:55:40.430 --> 01:55:42.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: So you've got a, you've got just a few minutes now.
[01:55:42.550 --> 01:55:43.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Three calls on the line.
[01:55:43.550 --> 01:55:44.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Get hold of this.
[01:55:44.250 --> 01:55:45.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:55:46.570 --> 01:55:47.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bernie, can you bring in a couple more?
[01:55:47.690 --> 01:55:49.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, you guys said it best.
[01:55:49.950 --> 01:55:51.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, this is an amazing package.
[01:55:51.950 --> 01:55:54.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're supporting a fantastic radio station.
[01:55:54.070 --> 01:56:02.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's only going to, it's the only station probably in the United States that's going to cover this kind of material in such depth and with such, uh, such analysis.
[01:56:02.510 --> 01:56:04.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: So please call 212-209-2950.
[01:56:05.510 --> 01:56:08.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Support WBAI and get an amazing gift package.
[01:56:08.390 --> 01:56:11.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, and this is just one show on this amazing radio station.
[01:56:12.150 --> 01:56:13.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're usually on for one hour a week.
[01:56:14.050 --> 01:56:20.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And just think of all the different hours there are, uh, in a week and how every single one of them is, is something else, something different.
[01:56:21.530 --> 01:56:28.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Incredible diversity and, uh, significance to our culture, to our history and to the world because the entire world can now tune into WBAI.
[01:56:28.590 --> 01:56:31.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: And a lot of people have found this radio station through off the hook.
[01:56:31.970 --> 01:56:34.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, a lot of young people are getting involved.
[01:56:34.170 --> 01:56:39.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's an amazing thing because that's, what's going to propel us, uh, well ahead into the 21st century.
[01:56:39.910 --> 01:56:41.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:56:41.570 --> 01:56:43.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have four calls on the line, five calls on the line.
[01:56:43.950 --> 01:56:46.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:56:46.210 --> 01:56:47.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's bring us over 4,000.
[01:56:47.710 --> 01:56:48.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: That would be amazing.
[01:56:58.590 --> 01:56:59.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, to watch freedom downtime.
[01:56:59.590 --> 01:57:01.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: See the movie we made 10 years ago.
[01:57:01.430 --> 01:57:06.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, the, uh, the DVDs for a pledge of one 25, the, uh, dozen Kevin Mitnick talks.
[01:57:07.110 --> 01:57:10.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: And of course the, uh, lock picking business card and the bumper sticker.
[01:57:10.250 --> 01:57:12.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just, uh, incredible package here.
[01:57:12.170 --> 01:57:13.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2950.
[01:57:14.550 --> 01:57:17.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And of course you won't regret still having the station and off the hook.
[01:57:18.030 --> 01:57:18.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[01:57:18.750 --> 01:57:19.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: To listen to every week.
[01:57:19.630 --> 01:57:24.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin, I want to thank you so much for spending, uh, a late night in Barcelona to talk to us tonight.
[01:57:24.130 --> 01:57:26.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, I look forward to seeing you in Vegas.
[01:57:26.990 --> 01:57:27.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[01:57:27.510 --> 01:57:30.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: I look forward to seeing you at DEFCON and, uh, it's been wonderful.
[01:57:30.470 --> 01:57:35.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: I hope, uh, I hope, uh, you're able to raise, uh, enough money for WBAI.
[01:57:35.870 --> 01:57:37.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a, it's a, it's a great cause.
[01:57:37.370 --> 01:57:41.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, and I want to thank everybody for being so supportive and I hope everybody loves my book.
[01:57:41.830 --> 01:57:45.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Again, it took, uh, two years of hard work to put it together.
[01:57:45.590 --> 01:57:50.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I, I, I hope it becomes kind of the catch me if you can't catch me if you can for the 21st century.
[01:57:51.050 --> 01:57:51.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:57:51.490 --> 01:57:53.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, hopefully nobody will catch you again, but we'll see what happens.
[01:57:53.770 --> 01:57:55.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks, Kevin, for, uh, for joining us.
[01:57:55.930 --> 01:57:56.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we'll see you later.
[01:57:57.230 --> 01:57:58.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, 212-209-2950.
[01:57:59.250 --> 01:57:59.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
[01:58:00.070 --> 01:58:00.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll see you next week.
[01:58:00.650 --> 01:58:00.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good night.