[00:00.000 --> 00:01.840] [SPEAKER_03]: ...sign language interpreters.
[00:02.020 --> 00:07.520] [SPEAKER_03]: For more information, go to clearwaterfestival.org.
[00:15.560 --> 00:21.120] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York, where the time is 7.01.
[00:21.560 --> 00:25.720] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening... well, you're not listening yet, but you will be listening to Hoff the Hook.
[00:30.930 --> 00:35.370] [SPEAKER_08]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:36.370 --> 00:38.350] [SPEAKER_08]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:38.950 --> 00:40.850] [SPEAKER_08]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:41.530 --> 00:43.690] [SPEAKER_08]: We couldn't get much worse.
[00:46.500 --> 00:49.160] [SPEAKER_08]: Fun diddley-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[00:49.760 --> 00:51.640] [SPEAKER_08]: I hope that's understood.
[00:51.920 --> 00:52.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Fun diddley-bum!
[02:20.270 --> 02:21.790] [SPEAKER_01]: And a very good evening to you, boy.
[02:21.850 --> 02:22.990] [SPEAKER_01]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:23.090 --> 02:25.730] [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:26.810 --> 02:30.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me, I'm a little bit jet-lagged, and just back from overseas.
[02:31.070 --> 02:35.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Just back from London and Manchester and other wonderful places like that.
[02:35.230 --> 02:36.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:36.810 --> 02:36.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[02:37.630 --> 02:38.210] [SPEAKER_01]: Red Haft.
[02:38.310 --> 02:38.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[02:38.990 --> 02:39.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob T.
[02:39.650 --> 02:40.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Firefly.
[02:40.290 --> 02:40.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[02:41.010 --> 02:41.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle.
[02:41.690 --> 02:42.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Be-weep-weep.
[02:42.750 --> 02:43.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[02:43.690 --> 02:45.590] [SPEAKER_01]: You brought that back from overseas, didn't you?
[02:45.910 --> 02:46.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[02:46.870 --> 02:47.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jim.
[02:48.070 --> 02:48.290] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[02:48.870 --> 02:50.650] [SPEAKER_01]: And down in Philadelphia is Bernie S.
[02:52.230 --> 02:53.650] [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, did you not put Bernie S?
[02:53.790 --> 02:54.590] [SPEAKER_01]: It's right there.
[02:54.650 --> 02:55.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there he is.
[02:55.230 --> 02:55.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[02:55.350 --> 02:55.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:56.030 --> 02:56.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
[02:56.230 --> 02:57.350] [SPEAKER_09]: Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:57.610 --> 02:57.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Pennsylvania.
[02:58.130 --> 02:58.210] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[02:59.570 --> 03:00.730] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, here we are.
[03:01.050 --> 03:02.470] [SPEAKER_01]: We were preempted last week.
[03:02.470 --> 03:03.590] [SPEAKER_01]: We're back this week.
[03:04.150 --> 03:07.150] [SPEAKER_01]: And just a little confused, running around, hitting walls, things like that.
[03:07.230 --> 03:09.070] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's the last week of our fundraiser.
[03:09.170 --> 03:09.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank God for that.
[03:10.510 --> 03:13.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have something completely different, new and different for you this week.
[03:13.590 --> 03:15.850] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be getting into in just a little bit.
[03:15.950 --> 03:18.970] [SPEAKER_01]: But first, any updates from anybody on what's going on?
[03:19.070 --> 03:21.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Red Haft, I know you're running out early because of, what, something happening in the sky?
[03:22.150 --> 03:22.650] [SPEAKER_01]: What's up?
[03:22.650 --> 03:24.770] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, Manhattanhenge.
[03:24.870 --> 03:28.010] [SPEAKER_07]: It's when the sun sets and it lines up perfectly with the grid of Manhattan.
[03:28.010 --> 03:29.010] [SPEAKER_07]: And it looks really cool.
[03:29.110 --> 03:32.130] [SPEAKER_07]: And I've never seen it, but I'm moving soon.
[03:32.150 --> 03:33.590] [SPEAKER_07]: So I want to see it before I move.
[03:33.590 --> 03:34.710] [SPEAKER_05]: But you could have done this yesterday.
[03:35.050 --> 03:37.390] [SPEAKER_07]: I could have done it yesterday, except they didn't know about it yesterday.
[03:37.950 --> 03:39.030] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, actually, you know...
[03:39.030 --> 03:41.070] [SPEAKER_07]: I was here about it afterwards, right?
[03:41.150 --> 03:44.410] [SPEAKER_07]: And so this time I heard about it at least with one day's notice.
[03:44.590 --> 03:45.650] [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm going to see it this time.
[03:45.650 --> 03:47.090] [SPEAKER_01]: When did this become Manhattanhenge?
[03:47.090 --> 03:57.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I remember back in the 80s, we used to do this, the June 2600 meeting always would have the sun falling down the sky, down the streets of every numbered street.
[03:57.790 --> 03:58.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was cool.
[03:58.770 --> 04:01.470] [SPEAKER_07]: I think the term was coined by Neil deGrasse Tyson.
[04:01.790 --> 04:02.510] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know when.
[04:02.890 --> 04:03.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[04:03.270 --> 04:03.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[04:03.550 --> 04:07.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's good to be able to name things after Manhattan, even when there...
[04:08.450 --> 04:11.910] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, so that takes place usually June and July, I think.
[04:11.990 --> 04:12.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of June and July.
[04:12.630 --> 04:13.650] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I think it's at the...
[04:13.650 --> 04:14.530] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, maybe.
[04:14.790 --> 04:15.870] [SPEAKER_01]: In some form, anyway.
[04:16.110 --> 04:19.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, I guess different things happen in Brooklyn, the way the streets are there.
[04:20.470 --> 04:20.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably.
[04:21.370 --> 04:23.490] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't really have long, one-way streets.
[04:23.490 --> 04:24.070] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they don't have a grid, right?
[04:24.230 --> 04:24.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[04:24.370 --> 04:27.730] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the important part, because everything in New York is kind of lined up so nicely.
[04:27.770 --> 04:28.670] [SPEAKER_07]: It's more complicated.
[04:28.870 --> 04:29.010] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[04:29.230 --> 04:29.590] [SPEAKER_07]: Very true.
[04:29.750 --> 04:30.070] [SPEAKER_07]: It's simpler.
[04:30.490 --> 04:30.670] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[04:30.810 --> 04:33.450] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, a lot of European cities are all windy and whatnot.
[04:33.650 --> 04:34.650] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, you probably noticed that in London.
[04:34.710 --> 04:35.430] [SPEAKER_07]: They don't have a grid there.
[04:35.530 --> 04:36.130] [SPEAKER_07]: Everything just goes in the grid.
[04:36.130 --> 04:36.710] [SPEAKER_07]: We did notice.
[04:36.710 --> 04:39.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle and I will give you some background on what the streets are like over there.
[04:40.910 --> 04:41.870] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yes, Bernie.
[04:42.550 --> 04:45.970] [SPEAKER_03]: We have a bit of news about our friend Julian Assange.
[04:46.670 --> 04:52.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, can you hold your horses for a minute while we talk about the heavens, the skies above us?
[04:52.490 --> 04:53.450] [SPEAKER_09]: I will woe the horses.
[04:53.590 --> 04:53.990] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[04:54.110 --> 04:57.730] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because we have a lot to talk about this hour, and we're going to get to that.
[04:57.790 --> 05:08.610] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're still talking about the sun and the sun being in the sky and also how it relates to 2600 meetings, because, as I said in June, that's when Manhattanhenge happens.
[05:09.530 --> 05:14.510] [SPEAKER_01]: But this Friday coming up, Rob, I believe you know this, it's a 2600 meeting, correct?
[05:14.510 --> 05:15.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, indeed.
[05:15.570 --> 05:16.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a special one, isn't it?
[05:16.610 --> 05:18.430] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very special 2600 meeting.
[05:18.690 --> 05:20.290] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to tell us why this is special?
[05:20.610 --> 05:24.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it is the 25th anniversary of the very first 2600 meeting.
[05:24.890 --> 05:25.250] [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[05:25.990 --> 05:26.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[05:26.750 --> 05:27.710] [SPEAKER_01]: 25 years.
[05:27.770 --> 05:28.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe that?
[05:28.750 --> 05:31.250] [SPEAKER_04]: We're starting on year 26 of 2600 meetings.
[05:31.250 --> 05:32.150] [SPEAKER_01]: That's something, too.
[05:32.230 --> 05:37.330] [SPEAKER_01]: But the very first meeting happened the first Friday of June in 1987.
[05:37.790 --> 05:38.830] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have been June 5th.
[05:38.910 --> 05:39.610] [SPEAKER_01]: How about that?
[05:39.810 --> 05:40.510] [SPEAKER_01]: That is something.
[05:41.130 --> 05:46.610] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, we're back here in the studios after being preempted last week.
[05:47.070 --> 05:56.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And Kyle and I were over in the United Kingdom doing all kinds of interesting things, meeting up with a lot of our listeners, and having a real blast.
[05:57.930 --> 06:02.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle, anything that you'd like to sum up in the opening moments?
[06:03.010 --> 06:03.470] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[06:03.670 --> 06:03.750] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[06:03.910 --> 06:07.190] [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, meetings came up when we were in London itself.
[06:07.610 --> 06:14.770] [SPEAKER_06]: Some of the London 2600 people were talking to us about their meeting and some of the issues that are affecting it.
[06:14.830 --> 06:28.530] [SPEAKER_06]: And they're really trying to bring in new people and expand the kinds of things that people are doing out there, like with hackerspaces and other things that affect the community there.
[06:28.690 --> 06:36.050] [SPEAKER_06]: But we were around the city of London proper, and then we also got out into some of the country and other parts of it.
[06:36.110 --> 06:36.870] [SPEAKER_06]: We went to Manchester.
[06:37.730 --> 06:40.310] [SPEAKER_06]: And we were just taking it in.
[06:40.410 --> 06:45.290] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of funny, odd things, like the whole left-hand side driving.
[06:45.770 --> 06:47.670] [SPEAKER_01]: They drive on the other side of the road there.
[06:47.790 --> 06:49.450] [SPEAKER_01]: And you learn that pretty quickly.
[06:49.450 --> 06:53.630] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you might say it's the wrong side, but I guess over here, it's the wrong side.
[06:53.790 --> 06:56.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing, I've done this before, but this is the first time you did it.
[06:56.910 --> 06:59.650] [SPEAKER_01]: We rented a car, drove around, and they don't tell you.
[06:59.770 --> 07:10.630] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, you're supposed to know, but when they give you the car, they don't even say to you, are you concerned that you might not be able to drive on the wrong side of the road and shift a manual transmission, things like that?
[07:10.670 --> 07:11.910] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's just assumed that you'll get it.
[07:12.130 --> 07:12.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And you do.
[07:12.950 --> 07:14.070] [SPEAKER_01]: You get it pretty quickly.
[07:14.230 --> 07:15.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And the wrong side of the car.
[07:15.650 --> 07:16.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, there's that too.
[07:19.810 --> 07:20.990] [SPEAKER_01]: But you did that in London?
[07:21.430 --> 07:24.830] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, actually, we rented the car in Sheffield, was it?
[07:25.170 --> 07:27.530] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was in the city of Sheffield.
[07:27.710 --> 07:28.850] [SPEAKER_06]: We took a train there.
[07:28.970 --> 07:36.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And we drove to Manchester and met up with our listener friend, Dave, and met so many cool people in Manchester.
[07:36.950 --> 07:37.670] [SPEAKER_01]: It really was a lot of fun.
[07:37.670 --> 07:46.230] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he's participating and sort of organizes a lot of what goes on at this space called Mad Lab in Manchester.
[07:48.750 --> 07:53.850] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, it's just, we were kind of showing around a little bit and got a little flavor of the city.
[07:54.030 --> 07:58.470] [SPEAKER_06]: We wanted to see some of the pubs and see some of the nightlife, if there is any.
[07:58.590 --> 08:00.330] [SPEAKER_06]: It does close a little bit early there.
[08:01.330 --> 08:02.810] [SPEAKER_01]: Things do close early over there.
[08:03.350 --> 08:05.390] [SPEAKER_01]: We met all kinds of characters.
[08:05.910 --> 08:06.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Linda, I believe, is one of them.
[08:07.450 --> 08:07.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, yeah.
[08:07.690 --> 08:13.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Who basically revolves around the street on a nightly basis and talks to all kinds of people that pass her by.
[08:13.150 --> 08:14.110] [SPEAKER_01]: She was a real kick.
[08:14.290 --> 08:17.810] [SPEAKER_01]: Frank Gallagher, another interesting character of the city that we talked to a bit.
[08:18.410 --> 08:20.070] [SPEAKER_01]: No, there are just so many characters.
[08:20.370 --> 08:24.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wish we had more time to really go into some of the, maybe on Off the Wall, we'll go into that a little bit more.
[08:24.650 --> 08:27.310] [SPEAKER_01]: But what we did after Manchester, this is what's really interesting.
[08:27.310 --> 08:33.990] [SPEAKER_01]: We drove to a place, this is why we rented the car in the first place, we drove to a place called Men With Hill.
[08:34.490 --> 08:39.830] [SPEAKER_01]: And Bernie, I believe you might know something about this odd-sounding place called Men With Hill.
[08:40.410 --> 08:52.770] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's part of the whole UK-USA alliance, which is the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand.
[08:52.770 --> 09:10.230] [SPEAKER_03]: And all the spy, all the electronic intelligence agencies, the National Security Agency, GCHQ, all these electronic intelligence, basically spy entities, have this big network of listening posts and monitoring posts.
[09:10.350 --> 09:13.390] [SPEAKER_03]: And Men With Hill is one of the big ones in that network.
[09:13.530 --> 09:14.890] [SPEAKER_03]: There's all kinds of crazy antennas there.
[09:14.970 --> 09:17.890] [SPEAKER_03]: You probably saw, did you see a lot of big radomes, big satellite antennas there?
[09:18.470 --> 09:24.190] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there were a lot of big, big white, what looked like big white balloons or puff bombs.
[09:24.710 --> 09:26.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is what happened, all right?
[09:26.390 --> 09:27.070] [SPEAKER_01]: We drove up there.
[09:27.170 --> 09:28.550] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't know what we were going to find.
[09:28.770 --> 09:34.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone told us we'd just come up upon a hill and all of a sudden there'd be all these huge golf ball looking things on the hill.
[09:35.170 --> 09:36.790] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's pretty much what happened.
[09:37.210 --> 09:41.710] [SPEAKER_01]: But when we got there, we noticed that there was almost always a cop behind us on the road.
[09:41.870 --> 09:43.790] [SPEAKER_01]: So we went up there to take pictures.
[09:43.790 --> 09:50.190] [SPEAKER_01]: We wanted to take pictures for the next Hacker Calendar of 2013, whose theme, as we've mentioned on this show, is surveillance.
[09:50.650 --> 10:00.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And Kyle's one of the photographers, so that was his assignment to go up there and risk life and limb to take pictures of these big, huge golf balls that nobody really knows what they're doing.
[10:01.930 --> 10:03.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly what they're doing, anyway.
[10:03.290 --> 10:06.930] [SPEAKER_05]: Why don't you just take a picture of a small golf ball and then blow it up for the publication?
[10:07.110 --> 10:08.490] [SPEAKER_01]: That's your way of doing it.
[10:08.650 --> 10:12.110] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you know, it might fool the people some of the time, but we wanted the real thing.
[10:12.110 --> 10:14.470] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we did was we drove around.
[10:14.610 --> 10:17.590] [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle, you've got a great sense of direction, so I would just get completely lost.
[10:17.610 --> 10:21.690] [SPEAKER_01]: But you're basically pointing, okay, you go over this hill now and down this road.
[10:21.750 --> 10:23.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Roads we had seen once.
[10:23.550 --> 10:28.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And what was the name of that odd-sounding place that we had to go down the road and follow the sign for?
[10:29.290 --> 10:30.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Some school or something.
[10:30.810 --> 10:32.030] [SPEAKER_06]: The Blubber Houses?
[10:32.270 --> 10:32.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Blubber Houses.
[10:33.150 --> 10:35.610] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, even a name like that, I couldn't remember.
[10:35.610 --> 10:45.990] [SPEAKER_01]: But we drove down the Blubber House Road, and we were trying not to be seen by cops taking pictures, because you do get questioned if you take pictures of these sites.
[10:46.270 --> 11:06.110] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, there are these two grandmothers over there who have made it their mission in life to take pictures and to actually break into the facility itself, to walk on the grounds, because they've lived there, I imagine, all their lives, and are rather offended by all this surveillance going on right in their backyards.
[11:06.270 --> 11:08.110] [SPEAKER_01]: So they've been sent to jail a few times.
[11:08.230 --> 11:10.590] [SPEAKER_01]: They've gotten a lot of publicity, but they're really pretty inspirational.
[11:10.790 --> 11:11.970] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't want that to happen to us.
[11:12.270 --> 11:15.610] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't want to wind up in a holding cell, just even being questioned.
[11:15.730 --> 11:19.290] [SPEAKER_01]: We just wanted to take the pictures and get out of there and go back to Manchester and hang out in a pub.
[11:20.770 --> 11:22.230] [SPEAKER_01]: But we lucked out.
[11:22.490 --> 11:27.330] [SPEAKER_01]: We went down a road, a little driveway, actually, just to get off the main road.
[11:28.750 --> 11:31.850] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was something rather disturbing about the road.
[11:31.850 --> 11:34.370] [SPEAKER_01]: It said, do not enter or something.
[11:34.470 --> 11:35.050] [SPEAKER_01]: It was very private.
[11:35.450 --> 11:42.350] [SPEAKER_06]: It had an automated gate with a stop sign on it, and a keypad, and a camera, and a bunch of really kind of ominous stuff.
[11:43.070 --> 11:45.910] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not the kind of road to go down when you don't belong somewhere.
[11:46.230 --> 11:48.630] [SPEAKER_01]: And what was the phrase you used?
[11:48.710 --> 11:52.570] [SPEAKER_01]: That I really don't want to go down this road or something like that?
[11:52.750 --> 11:54.030] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I was like, stop.
[11:54.170 --> 11:56.030] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to continue on.
[11:56.090 --> 11:56.850] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to go through there.
[11:56.850 --> 11:59.790] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were about maybe, what, 50 feet away from the gate?
[11:59.790 --> 12:01.770] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we were really quite far away from it.
[12:01.870 --> 12:03.150] [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to back out at that point.
[12:03.190 --> 12:03.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[12:03.510 --> 12:04.390] [SPEAKER_01]: And what do you think happened?
[12:04.530 --> 12:05.350] [SPEAKER_01]: The gate went up.
[12:05.570 --> 12:06.430] [SPEAKER_01]: The gate just...
[12:06.810 --> 12:12.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Something was watching us, or someone was watching us, and decided that we were okay to go through.
[12:13.890 --> 12:17.650] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, you just have to say, you know, let's accept the invitation.
[12:17.790 --> 12:21.350] [SPEAKER_01]: They opened the gate, so why not just go down there and see what happens?
[12:21.530 --> 12:22.070] [SPEAKER_09]: It could be a trap.
[12:22.430 --> 12:23.250] [SPEAKER_01]: It could be a trap.
[12:23.270 --> 12:23.750] [SPEAKER_01]: You're right, Bernie.
[12:23.830 --> 12:24.530] [SPEAKER_01]: It could have been a trap.
[12:24.550 --> 12:25.550] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?
[12:25.550 --> 12:26.170] [SPEAKER_01]: They opened the gate.
[12:26.270 --> 12:29.190] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like we tried to get in and used fake ID or anything like that.
[12:29.190 --> 12:33.510] [SPEAKER_01]: We just pulled the car into a road, and the gate went up, so we went through that gate.
[12:33.690 --> 12:37.950] [SPEAKER_01]: And we passed this building with a parking lot, and what was it, network operations or something?
[12:38.750 --> 12:45.950] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was some private company like Babcock or some network communication center.
[12:46.070 --> 12:50.790] [SPEAKER_06]: It was adjacent to the RAF Menwith Hill facility by, like, about a farm.
[12:51.270 --> 12:53.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, farms all over the place.
[12:53.190 --> 12:54.990] [SPEAKER_05]: But a farm is not a unit of measurement.
[12:55.270 --> 12:57.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it is there, because that's the only thing they really have.
[12:58.150 --> 12:59.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Sheep farms all over the place.
[12:59.530 --> 13:00.130] [SPEAKER_05]: But you can have a big farm.
[13:00.150 --> 13:00.990] [SPEAKER_05]: You can have a little farm.
[13:01.090 --> 13:01.510] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so like...
[13:01.510 --> 13:02.810] [SPEAKER_05]: You can have a farm on your windowsill.
[13:03.170 --> 13:04.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it's true, but...
[13:04.770 --> 13:05.670] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, no, that's a good point.
[13:05.770 --> 13:08.410] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, okay, 40 acres or 100 acres.
[13:08.410 --> 13:11.650] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, a long distance from the actual facility.
[13:11.770 --> 13:17.170] [SPEAKER_06]: Because we went in very close to sort of get very close to these mushroom-like looking things.
[13:17.290 --> 13:19.890] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's where we saw a lot of, like, heavy police patrol.
[13:20.050 --> 13:26.990] [SPEAKER_06]: But then we kind of zigzagged our way and got a little bit, like, started further out and worked our way in and then left after that.
[13:27.170 --> 13:32.210] [SPEAKER_06]: But this seemed like an access road, because there were other antennas that were also...
[13:32.950 --> 13:38.030] [SPEAKER_06]: They looked sort of related to the whole surveillance concept in the area.
[13:38.030 --> 13:39.330] [SPEAKER_06]: But again, this was all adjacent.
[13:39.550 --> 13:44.790] [SPEAKER_06]: So there was, like, some communications center and then a couple, like, other odd antennas.
[13:44.890 --> 13:51.710] [SPEAKER_06]: But they were seemingly, like, on private property because they were in the middle of what was several residences or several large farms.
[13:51.950 --> 14:05.110] [SPEAKER_06]: So the reason for the gate was either people working at this network communications center, which was, like, privately operated, or it's a pass-through for local farms and people that obviously are residents and need access.
[14:05.110 --> 14:10.310] [SPEAKER_06]: And we got mistaken either one way or another, and we're able to walk all the way through the lot.
[14:10.550 --> 14:11.430] [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't working for the network.
[14:11.430 --> 14:13.070] [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't working for the farm.
[14:13.230 --> 14:15.770] [SPEAKER_01]: So we just passed through there and parked the car.
[14:16.030 --> 14:27.450] [SPEAKER_01]: And basically what we wound up doing was staring out at a field of sheep and watching them while you were taking pictures of the Radon, you know, the golf balls in the distance.
[14:27.610 --> 14:27.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[14:28.410 --> 14:30.350] [SPEAKER_01]: For, I think, about an hour and a half.
[14:30.550 --> 14:35.430] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was just basically standing there making comments about all the sheep and looking like I was interested in that.
[14:35.550 --> 14:35.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[14:35.970 --> 14:39.830] [SPEAKER_01]: And we actually got a bunch of photos with both sheep and surveillance.
[14:40.150 --> 14:45.690] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there's some really cute ones juxtaposed, like, with sheep surveying me.
[14:45.750 --> 14:48.370] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's juxtaposed with these large radomes.
[14:48.530 --> 14:49.450] [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't know.
[14:49.530 --> 14:51.630] [SPEAKER_06]: We might have some humorous shots in there.
[14:51.710 --> 14:52.430] [SPEAKER_06]: And we got out of there.
[14:52.430 --> 14:53.310] [SPEAKER_01]: We got out of there okay.
[14:54.070 --> 14:55.110] [SPEAKER_01]: There was no...
[14:55.110 --> 14:58.210] [SPEAKER_01]: The gate basically went up and we came up to it on the way out.
[14:58.350 --> 15:03.070] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we actually drove up very close to the entrance, too, and took some pictures there and then hightailed it out.
[15:03.530 --> 15:04.810] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was the last thing we did.
[15:04.910 --> 15:06.590] [SPEAKER_06]: We went back and...
[15:06.590 --> 15:07.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, I want to ask you.
[15:09.290 --> 15:15.310] [SPEAKER_01]: These golf ball devices, which I don't know where you would see them in this country, if there is any place that you might...
[15:15.310 --> 15:16.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Where might you see one?
[15:16.450 --> 15:23.550] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you could also just follow the Yellowbrook Roll down to Fort Meade, Maryland, where the National Security Agency is headquartered.
[15:24.070 --> 15:28.670] [SPEAKER_03]: They're the ones that really are linked network to all these antennas at these different countries.
[15:28.730 --> 15:28.870] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[15:29.110 --> 15:30.650] [SPEAKER_01]: But most people aren't close to that.
[15:30.830 --> 15:33.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there other places throughout the country where you might see something like that?
[15:33.410 --> 15:34.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Airports, maybe?
[15:34.250 --> 15:34.990] [SPEAKER_03]: Some airports, yeah.
[15:35.130 --> 15:41.130] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the reason they look like giant golf balls is inside of that dome is a satellite dish.
[15:41.130 --> 15:47.350] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's part of being sneaky and, you know, operational security.
[15:47.810 --> 15:57.110] [SPEAKER_03]: You don't want your target or anybody else who might be up to no good, like you guys, to see what satellite the antenna is pointed at.
[15:57.150 --> 16:01.970] [SPEAKER_03]: So you put it inside this big sphere, like it's hollow in there.
[16:02.070 --> 16:02.950] [SPEAKER_03]: It's called a radome.
[16:02.950 --> 16:08.710] [SPEAKER_03]: And that just keeps the weather out of it, and it keeps prying eyes from seeing where it's pointed.
[16:10.670 --> 16:14.470] [SPEAKER_03]: But radomes are used on all kinds of satellite antennas.
[16:14.490 --> 16:16.170] [SPEAKER_03]: You could see them on Navy ships.
[16:17.090 --> 16:19.770] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times they're just there just to keep the weather out of the dish.
[16:19.970 --> 16:23.870] [SPEAKER_03]: But in this case, they're there to conceal where the antennas are pointed.
[16:24.050 --> 16:28.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I get one for my satellite TV, which always goes out whenever it rains?
[16:28.370 --> 16:29.790] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you can, as a matter of fact.
[16:29.790 --> 16:35.730] [SPEAKER_03]: It has to be a special material that's transparent to radiofrequency energy.
[16:36.070 --> 16:38.230] [SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, it's got to be special paint.
[16:38.430 --> 16:56.090] [SPEAKER_03]: Like when I was in, I think it's a Tufelsdorf, outside of Berlin last summer with some friends after the CCC camp, we traveled to an NSA, a retired NSA facility that was in the former West Berlin, pointing towards East Berlin.
[16:56.530 --> 17:00.610] [SPEAKER_03]: And there were some massive radomes there that were abandoned.
[17:00.610 --> 17:03.730] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was able to cut with a knife, cut some pieces of the material.
[17:03.730 --> 17:05.510] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very special, expensive material.
[17:06.110 --> 17:07.650] [SPEAKER_03]: It's transparent to RF energy.
[17:07.890 --> 17:09.650] [SPEAKER_03]: But I had to take a souvenir, you know.
[17:09.910 --> 17:10.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[17:10.750 --> 17:14.290] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, anyway, so that was our trip up there.
[17:14.310 --> 17:16.990] [SPEAKER_01]: We got some really amazing photos of that.
[17:16.990 --> 17:21.210] [SPEAKER_01]: And basically, we spent a lot of time hanging out in various other parts of the country.
[17:21.430 --> 17:38.770] [SPEAKER_01]: And we visited Julio Dwyer, who we had on the radio show a month or so ago, whose son, Richard, is in the process of fighting extradition to the United States for the crime of running a website that linked to movies that the MPAA said were not legitimate.
[17:39.750 --> 17:43.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone who is not a native of this country, and it wasn't a crime in the country that he was in.
[17:43.970 --> 17:45.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Talked to his mother for a good long bit.
[17:45.990 --> 17:50.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And she really is an incredible person, the fight that she's involved in.
[17:51.090 --> 17:59.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's kind of indicative of some of the things that are going on, this fight against extradition that seems to be prevalent everywhere.
[17:59.570 --> 18:20.790] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, like inequity and rendition, like extraditing people from countries where Americans are protected and can't be extradited, and yet we're extraditing people here routinely and charging them, especially with these things that are like instances where people have never even been on our land at all.
[18:20.850 --> 18:24.630] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe this ties in rather nicely with what Bernie wanted to bring up before.
[18:24.630 --> 18:26.130] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Julian Assange.
[18:26.310 --> 18:28.910] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[18:29.230 --> 18:30.890] [SPEAKER_00]: Stay strong and keep listening.
[18:31.670 --> 18:32.570] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[18:32.750 --> 18:33.530] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[18:34.130 --> 18:37.310] [SPEAKER_01]: So, is there something you'd like to tell us, Bernie?
[18:38.090 --> 18:38.790] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah.
[18:39.090 --> 18:40.350] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some news about Julian.
[18:40.590 --> 18:43.150] [SPEAKER_03]: It was this big news on BBC last night and this morning.
[18:43.770 --> 18:54.510] [SPEAKER_03]: The equivalent of the United Kingdom's Supreme Court made a ruling about Julian's pending extradition to Sweden to just answer questions.
[18:54.630 --> 18:58.130] [SPEAKER_03]: He's not even charged with any crime to just answer questions in Sweden.
[18:58.130 --> 19:05.610] [SPEAKER_03]: He's been fighting this because he thinks that that's just sort of a short stepping stone to being extradited to the U.S., where the U.S.
[19:06.150 --> 19:12.230] [SPEAKER_03]: probably has convened a grand jury panel to investigate him for leaking classified documents via WikiLeaks.
[19:13.130 --> 19:13.970] [SPEAKER_03]: The U.K.
[19:14.090 --> 19:20.530] [SPEAKER_03]: Supreme Court ruled that the extradition is valid and that he has to go to Sweden.
[19:21.010 --> 19:30.130] [SPEAKER_03]: But he was given two weeks, 14 days, to appeal on some really narrow piece of case law that's like decades old, which he's probably going to lose.
[19:31.630 --> 19:40.150] [SPEAKER_03]: So he's getting his head together because he's going to probably have to go to Sweden in a couple of weeks and be questioned and then maybe be criminally charged there on some dubious charges.
[19:40.670 --> 19:42.810] [SPEAKER_03]: And that might lead to his being...
[19:42.810 --> 19:54.490] [SPEAKER_03]: Coincidentally, just coincidentally, our Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, is going to Stockholm, Sweden, right around now, to talk with the government there about things.
[19:54.750 --> 19:56.690] [SPEAKER_03]: I wonder what she wants to talk to them about.
[19:58.450 --> 20:03.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, it's disturbing, to say the least, but not surprising.
[20:03.810 --> 20:05.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something that...
[20:05.490 --> 20:12.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Julian has 14 days now to appeal this case in one final way, I guess.
[20:12.750 --> 20:13.650] [SPEAKER_01]: There's two ways this can go.
[20:13.770 --> 20:23.550] [SPEAKER_01]: If the Supreme Court hears it and realizes that it wasn't presented properly in the first place, that's one way of going.
[20:23.730 --> 20:30.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Personally, I don't think they're going to be very open to that because they just haven't shown themselves to be very open to that in the past.
[20:30.530 --> 20:38.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Second way is to appeal to the European Union Court of Human Rights, I believe, or something similarly named.
[20:39.910 --> 20:47.250] [SPEAKER_01]: So if that goes through, if he goes through that court, then it's... we're talking months again.
[20:47.670 --> 20:49.790] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, that's something that...
[20:49.790 --> 20:51.170] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what the odds are.
[20:51.730 --> 20:55.710] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's something that we certainly have to keep our eyes open for.
[20:56.510 --> 21:06.070] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we saw Julian and spent quite a bit of time talking, hanging out, basically trading all bits of information.
[21:07.450 --> 21:09.890] [SPEAKER_01]: And for those interested, he's looking well.
[21:10.250 --> 21:12.370] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, you wouldn't recognize him.
[21:12.430 --> 21:13.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just put it that way.
[21:13.770 --> 21:13.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[21:14.110 --> 21:15.830] [SPEAKER_06]: He looks really well.
[21:15.870 --> 21:16.130] [SPEAKER_06]: He does.
[21:16.450 --> 21:19.110] [SPEAKER_06]: He's keeping his spirits up in light of what's going on.
[21:19.110 --> 21:28.770] [SPEAKER_06]: And is really the same guy, like on top of it, and knows a lot of what's going on right now with, like, Lebanon and, like, what's been happening in Syria.
[21:28.770 --> 21:30.630] [SPEAKER_01]: It's something because we talked to him about...
[21:30.630 --> 21:36.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was like to talk to the leader of Hezbollah, which he did in the first episode of his television program for Russia Today.
[21:37.830 --> 21:39.890] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not like what you would think.
[21:40.250 --> 21:41.210] [SPEAKER_01]: It really isn't...
[21:42.130 --> 21:46.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, things are presented on television and through the media in various ways.
[21:47.050 --> 21:54.930] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, you know, talking about people being starstruck, talking to the leader of Hezbollah and what he has to contend with and things like that.
[21:55.090 --> 22:00.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, there are all kinds of other more complicated issues involved with a person like that.
[22:01.070 --> 22:11.570] [SPEAKER_01]: But just to actually be in that kind of a conversation, talking to people that have that sort of contact, that's what's really fascinating.
[22:12.450 --> 22:15.470] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, interesting people that we met up with.
[22:15.470 --> 22:18.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Corey Doctorow, we talked to him, hung out with him for a while.
[22:19.430 --> 22:24.690] [SPEAKER_01]: As we mentioned, Julia Dwyer, the folks over at the 2600 London Gathering.
[22:24.750 --> 22:25.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Who did we have?
[22:25.190 --> 22:29.050] [SPEAKER_01]: We had Zap, we had Russell, we had Bob, we had Pan.
[22:29.450 --> 22:30.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Who else?
[22:30.530 --> 22:31.670] [SPEAKER_01]: There were other people, weren't there?
[22:31.750 --> 22:32.470] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to leave anybody out.
[22:32.470 --> 22:34.410] [SPEAKER_05]: Did some of these people have names longer than three letters?
[22:34.530 --> 22:34.690] [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[22:35.010 --> 22:37.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Russell's name is longer than three letters.
[22:37.510 --> 22:40.550] [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to congratulate Russell for becoming a father while we were there.
[22:40.550 --> 22:49.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Mia, his new daughter, is now part of the world after taking three days to actually be born.
[22:50.430 --> 22:52.490] [SPEAKER_01]: So, sympathies to Russell's wife.
[22:52.690 --> 22:54.290] [SPEAKER_01]: But lots of cool people.
[22:55.250 --> 22:56.150] [SPEAKER_06]: Also, also crypt.
[22:56.970 --> 22:57.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Crypt, yes, of course.
[22:58.110 --> 22:59.130] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I was forgetting somebody.
[22:59.350 --> 22:59.670] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[22:59.870 --> 23:00.210] [SPEAKER_06]: Me too.
[23:00.390 --> 23:02.850] [SPEAKER_06]: I was trying to think of who it was, but they were brilliant.
[23:03.070 --> 23:08.630] [SPEAKER_01]: And one final thing, and then we're going to move on to other things that we're going to talk about today.
[23:08.630 --> 23:16.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, getting into this country, as you know, I've been going through nightmares every damn time, questioned and searched and all that kind of thing.
[23:16.410 --> 23:19.770] [SPEAKER_01]: So, the last time, I got fed up.
[23:19.870 --> 23:24.470] [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote a letter to DHS demanding to know why I was on some kind of a list.
[23:24.910 --> 23:26.090] [SPEAKER_01]: They sent me back a letter.
[23:26.230 --> 23:28.370] [SPEAKER_01]: I opened it live on the air a few months ago.
[23:28.530 --> 23:29.270] [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't really say anything.
[23:29.370 --> 23:34.270] [SPEAKER_01]: It just said, well, sometimes people's names are confused with other names and there really shouldn't be any problem.
[23:35.010 --> 23:36.650] [SPEAKER_01]: I was convinced there would be a problem.
[23:36.830 --> 23:40.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And what happened was we kind of plotted on the way back in.
[23:41.750 --> 23:46.330] [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to come into the country with absolutely nothing on me, nothing in my pockets, nothing in my knapsack.
[23:46.590 --> 23:49.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, except for the letter, the letter and my passport.
[23:49.870 --> 23:56.730] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, when they asked me questions, I was just going to say, hey, you know, I'm asking the questions this time because you have absolutely nothing to look at.
[23:56.890 --> 23:58.050] [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing on my bags.
[23:58.050 --> 23:59.550] [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing on my person.
[24:00.250 --> 24:07.050] [SPEAKER_01]: But instead, what happened was I walked through the gates and the guy looked at my passport and looked at the screen.
[24:07.650 --> 24:08.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, he didn't see anything.
[24:08.770 --> 24:09.590] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, welcome home.
[24:09.810 --> 24:12.610] [SPEAKER_01]: And that means a lot when you come into your own country and you're welcomed.
[24:12.930 --> 24:14.390] [SPEAKER_01]: That hasn't happened to me in a while.
[24:14.390 --> 24:17.410] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm glad that nightmare, hopefully, is over.
[24:17.870 --> 24:19.190] [SPEAKER_07]: I would hold on to the letter.
[24:19.390 --> 24:20.890] [SPEAKER_01]: I am holding on to the letter.
[24:21.270 --> 24:24.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's a cautious optimism I've got right now.
[24:25.030 --> 24:26.130] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was good.
[24:26.130 --> 24:27.450] [SPEAKER_01]: It was good to do that.
[24:27.510 --> 24:29.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Because when I went to the UK, you know, same thing.
[24:29.270 --> 24:29.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome.
[24:30.290 --> 24:30.930] [SPEAKER_01]: No questioning.
[24:30.930 --> 24:31.450] [SPEAKER_01]: No searching.
[24:31.750 --> 24:32.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing like that.
[24:32.550 --> 24:33.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you have to...
[24:33.370 --> 24:34.870] [SPEAKER_05]: I hear they have, like, multi-hour...
[24:34.870 --> 24:37.570] [SPEAKER_05]: They call them queues for immigration at Heathrow.
[24:37.910 --> 24:39.010] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it wasn't so bad at all.
[24:39.130 --> 24:40.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Was it bad for you, Carl?
[24:40.170 --> 24:41.310] [SPEAKER_01]: You came in as an American.
[24:41.310 --> 24:42.890] [SPEAKER_01]: I came in as an EU citizen.
[24:43.150 --> 24:46.030] [SPEAKER_06]: I had a little bit of questioning.
[24:47.030 --> 24:48.370] [SPEAKER_06]: And I get it...
[24:48.370 --> 24:55.130] [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes it was a little bit more than usual about, like, my occupation and whether I was there to work.
[24:55.930 --> 24:58.510] [SPEAKER_06]: But I just sort of said mostly of leisure.
[24:58.890 --> 25:04.230] [SPEAKER_06]: And I guess it's kind of funny, like, for someone who's into photography, if you're, like, self-employed...
[25:04.230 --> 25:05.510] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I told him I was self-employed.
[25:05.590 --> 25:08.790] [SPEAKER_06]: And he was asking me, like, what are you doing with your photography lately?
[25:09.050 --> 25:11.010] [SPEAKER_06]: And he was already, like, going to, like, stamp stuff.
[25:11.170 --> 25:13.070] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was a sort of an odd question.
[25:15.290 --> 25:16.290] [SPEAKER_06]: And I didn't...
[25:16.290 --> 25:19.550] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I say, you know, I'm going to tour and do stuff like that.
[25:19.550 --> 25:22.910] [SPEAKER_06]: And I guess people traveling for fun, they take pictures, too.
[25:23.110 --> 25:25.910] [SPEAKER_06]: And so when I have, like, four cameras with me or whatever, it's...
[25:25.910 --> 25:28.150] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's for fun and for leisure.
[25:28.370 --> 25:32.350] [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't know if there's, like, a gray area with photographers.
[25:32.790 --> 25:33.610] [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't know.
[25:33.670 --> 25:38.970] [SPEAKER_06]: I answered as truthfully as I could and tried not to think of it as too much of a paradox.
[25:39.990 --> 25:43.850] [SPEAKER_07]: Manuel, did you get to go through the part where you don't talk to anyone?
[25:43.850 --> 25:45.490] [SPEAKER_07]: Or did you talk to an immigration person?
[25:46.150 --> 25:47.630] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, on the way in to the UK.
[25:48.910 --> 25:50.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there was a person there.
[25:50.770 --> 25:52.410] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have been rude to not say a word to him.
[25:52.410 --> 25:52.630] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[25:52.630 --> 25:58.850] [SPEAKER_07]: When I went into the UK, they had a separate line for people with the EU passport with the chip on it.
[25:58.950 --> 25:59.410] [SPEAKER_07]: And I was able to go in there.
[25:59.410 --> 26:00.150] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I don't have a chip.
[26:00.290 --> 26:00.850] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a chip.
[26:00.990 --> 26:01.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you sure?
[26:01.350 --> 26:01.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not registered.
[26:02.250 --> 26:03.950] [SPEAKER_01]: I got it a bunch of years ago.
[26:04.630 --> 26:05.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably about five years ago, I think.
[26:06.510 --> 26:07.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Had it for a while.
[26:07.890 --> 26:08.710] [SPEAKER_07]: It might be.
[26:08.850 --> 26:11.870] [SPEAKER_07]: Does it have a little symbol on the passport, on the cover, like a little square symbol?
[26:11.890 --> 26:12.750] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it does.
[26:12.990 --> 26:14.330] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I have one of those.
[26:14.530 --> 26:15.470] [SPEAKER_01]: I know what you're talking about.
[26:15.670 --> 26:16.690] [SPEAKER_07]: Then you can't use that one.
[26:16.690 --> 26:18.450] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I didn't know it existed anyway, so it worked out.
[26:18.450 --> 26:18.970] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they were directing.
[26:19.130 --> 26:21.390] [SPEAKER_07]: When I was there, when I went there last time, they were directing.
[26:21.530 --> 26:24.890] [SPEAKER_07]: They said, if you have got the passport with the chip, please come into this line.
[26:24.910 --> 26:25.570] [SPEAKER_07]: And I did.
[26:25.910 --> 26:26.970] [SPEAKER_01]: I had an Oyster card.
[26:27.250 --> 26:27.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[26:27.750 --> 26:30.230] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's what you used to ride the Underground, but that didn't...
[26:30.230 --> 26:32.590] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really a good system, what they have over there.
[26:32.810 --> 26:39.110] [SPEAKER_01]: It's incredibly fast and efficient, which is not in London's tradition, but it works really well.
[26:39.390 --> 26:41.610] [SPEAKER_01]: What is in London's tradition, though, is surveillance.
[26:41.870 --> 26:43.010] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God, it's everywhere.
[26:43.430 --> 26:45.510] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Carl, you saw this for the first time.
[26:45.510 --> 26:46.410] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's...
[26:46.410 --> 26:47.430] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not exaggerating, right?
[26:47.690 --> 26:47.950] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[26:48.150 --> 26:57.430] [SPEAKER_06]: Really, like, seeing the city as an adult and walking around and checking things out, seeing how things work and different...
[26:57.830 --> 26:58.310] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[26:58.390 --> 27:01.470] [SPEAKER_06]: The surveillance industry there is mature.
[27:01.470 --> 27:06.890] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, we learned a lot about the schemes and the scheme system.
[27:07.390 --> 27:12.950] [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, an installation of surveillance in any given place is called a scheme.
[27:13.230 --> 27:14.190] [SPEAKER_06]: And so...
[27:14.190 --> 27:20.030] [SPEAKER_06]: And because of, like, a FOIA-like policy they have, you can submit to...
[27:20.030 --> 27:20.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Freedom of Information Act.
[27:21.050 --> 27:30.550] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's kind of like that, but a little distinct in that it's just mainly, like, you can request to see video or clips of you and have them sent of, like, wherever you're surveilled there.
[27:30.550 --> 27:32.770] [SPEAKER_06]: And so there's different schemes.
[27:33.010 --> 27:40.050] [SPEAKER_06]: Some are, like, really quite public and integrated, like the train system or, you know, in public places like that.
[27:40.150 --> 27:43.030] [SPEAKER_06]: Or, like, just an average store might have a private scheme.
[27:43.170 --> 27:44.210] [SPEAKER_06]: But there's a whole industry.
[27:44.210 --> 27:47.670] [SPEAKER_06]: So sometimes they're, like, different companies that provide it.
[27:47.750 --> 27:50.530] [SPEAKER_06]: And we even saw, like, barcodes for different schemes.
[27:50.530 --> 27:53.350] [SPEAKER_06]: You go to a website and submit your claim there.
[27:53.510 --> 27:56.150] [SPEAKER_06]: And it just was really bizarre learning about some of that stuff.
[27:56.150 --> 28:01.730] [SPEAKER_01]: There was one part of King's Cross Station where you saw how many security cameras at one time?
[28:01.950 --> 28:11.410] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I was at King's Cross and I was sort of just looking around and taking some wide shots of the timetable board there, which is a big open space.
[28:11.410 --> 28:16.270] [SPEAKER_06]: But I counted about 64 cameras in any, like, in a 360-degree view.
[28:16.390 --> 28:17.770] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is without moving around.
[28:17.950 --> 28:18.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[28:18.330 --> 28:20.390] [SPEAKER_01]: You could see 64 different cameras.
[28:20.410 --> 28:21.170] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, just pivoting.
[28:21.170 --> 28:21.530] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[28:21.930 --> 28:22.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Incredible.
[28:22.750 --> 28:30.370] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the case inside buses and trains, on the street, and just watching.
[28:30.530 --> 28:31.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And people are used to this.
[28:31.770 --> 28:33.710] [SPEAKER_01]: People think it's a normal part of life.
[28:33.950 --> 28:39.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I heard something on the radio where people were being offered lower car insurance.
[28:39.110 --> 28:41.970] [SPEAKER_01]: They agreed to have a video camera installed inside their car.
[28:42.410 --> 28:48.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And the controversy was that the cost of insurance was still too high.
[28:48.030 --> 28:50.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody said anything about the privacy concerns.
[28:50.470 --> 28:51.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Not one person mentioned that.
[28:51.890 --> 28:52.850] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just about the cost.
[28:53.210 --> 28:55.710] [SPEAKER_01]: People just are content with being watched all the time.
[28:55.810 --> 28:59.730] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that really mystifies me, it doesn't...
[28:59.730 --> 29:05.450] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a society where something like this seems particularly needed in the first place.
[29:05.550 --> 29:06.430] [SPEAKER_01]: People want to be safe.
[29:06.530 --> 29:07.730] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, people want to be safe everywhere.
[29:07.850 --> 29:14.730] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not like people in England were unsafe before or were subjected to more crimes than any other country.
[29:14.730 --> 29:18.610] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also weird because we were told this on a number of occasions.
[29:19.590 --> 29:20.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Criminals know where the cameras are.
[29:21.030 --> 29:23.970] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they commit the crimes right outside where the cameras are.
[29:24.030 --> 29:25.310] [SPEAKER_01]: They know where the blind spots are.
[29:25.430 --> 29:28.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Or they go into a part of the country that doesn't have surveillance.
[29:28.750 --> 29:32.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe that means they need more cameras.
[29:32.170 --> 29:32.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's what they...
[29:32.830 --> 29:33.670] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a blind spot.
[29:33.730 --> 29:35.850] [SPEAKER_05]: So they're going to put a camera there so they don't commit the crime there.
[29:35.950 --> 29:36.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[29:36.870 --> 29:39.610] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, also, lots of cameras are unmanned.
[29:39.610 --> 29:43.110] [SPEAKER_01]: And you find this out when you decide you need some footage.
[29:43.110 --> 29:46.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you got mugged in a certain area and you want to see what happened.
[29:46.370 --> 29:50.610] [SPEAKER_01]: And the authorities tell you that, well, we didn't change the tape that particular week.
[29:51.070 --> 29:55.510] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's an inefficient system but kind of a scary one.
[29:55.790 --> 29:59.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And really something that we should learn from because it's going to come here.
[29:59.570 --> 30:01.010] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to come here if you're not careful.
[30:01.810 --> 30:02.530] [SPEAKER_01]: What's that, Bernie?
[30:02.870 --> 30:03.690] [SPEAKER_03]: I said nothing.
[30:04.250 --> 30:06.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you should say something.
[30:07.010 --> 30:07.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well...
[30:07.890 --> 30:08.790] [SPEAKER_01]: We should all say something.
[30:08.790 --> 30:15.570] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you probably can't walk even a few yards in...
[30:15.570 --> 30:19.990] [SPEAKER_03]: And I won't say meters because they're still on the English system of measurement in the UK.
[30:19.990 --> 30:26.350] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't even walk a few yards there anywhere in London without being surveilled by more than one technology.
[30:26.990 --> 30:27.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[30:28.330 --> 30:28.750] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[30:28.830 --> 30:30.210] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're going to move on.
[30:30.310 --> 30:34.950] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Julian Assange and you're listening to Off The Hook at WBAI New York.
[30:35.150 --> 30:35.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[30:35.590 --> 30:36.990] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you, Julian, for that.
[30:36.990 --> 30:39.950] [SPEAKER_01]: And he does extend his greetings to everyone back here.
[30:40.370 --> 30:42.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we'll be hearing more from him later on as well.
[30:42.830 --> 30:47.430] [SPEAKER_01]: And what a country to be stuck in when you're trying not to be surveilled.
[30:48.190 --> 30:48.990] [SPEAKER_01]: But, wow.
[30:48.990 --> 30:49.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[30:50.050 --> 30:54.450] [SPEAKER_01]: We're moving on to tonight's topic of our fundraising endeavors.
[30:54.610 --> 30:58.850] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that keeps this radio station on the air, keeps us going.
[30:59.530 --> 31:05.050] [SPEAKER_01]: By calling 212-209-2950, you can support this particular radio station.
[31:05.050 --> 31:09.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Joining us tonight is Deviant Ollam.
[31:11.270 --> 31:13.710] [SPEAKER_01]: Deviant, am I pronouncing that last name correctly?
[31:14.850 --> 31:15.450] [SPEAKER_02]: Almost.
[31:15.670 --> 31:21.870] [SPEAKER_02]: You're pronouncing it traditionally in the sense that most people do say Alam, but it's actually pronounced Olive.
[31:22.870 --> 31:23.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Olive with a V?
[31:24.590 --> 31:26.250] [SPEAKER_02]: Almost with a V sound, yes.
[31:26.250 --> 31:30.150] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's spelled O-L-L-A-M, is it?
[31:30.150 --> 31:30.790] [SPEAKER_02]: That it is.
[31:30.930 --> 31:32.170] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's pronounced with a V?
[31:32.890 --> 31:33.250] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[31:33.470 --> 31:33.670] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[31:33.710 --> 31:35.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, at least I know how to pronounce Deviant.
[31:35.230 --> 31:36.550] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a problem.
[31:36.990 --> 31:37.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[31:37.430 --> 31:44.090] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're a member of the Open Organization of Lockpickers, known as Tool, I believe.
[31:44.670 --> 31:45.450] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
[31:45.470 --> 31:49.770] [SPEAKER_02]: We are looking forward to being a presence at Hope, as has been in the past.
[31:49.930 --> 31:52.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And we certainly are looking forward to having you there.
[31:52.810 --> 31:55.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you first tell us something about the organization?
[31:55.350 --> 32:03.830] [SPEAKER_01]: I know it had its starts overseas, in Holland and in Germany, and eventually became a big force here in the United States.
[32:04.350 --> 32:05.270] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, indeed.
[32:05.590 --> 32:12.910] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, sport picking, as you have highlighted, has been a factor of game and hacker community activities overseas.
[32:13.090 --> 32:19.950] [SPEAKER_02]: Originally, it was the Dutch who had sport picking organizations with names like Door Hardware Sport and so forth.
[32:20.110 --> 32:24.010] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you have the German group, SSDev, Spotschrendere Stratechnik.
[32:24.010 --> 32:36.770] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, really cropping up throughout the 90s and beyond, Tool, which was founded in the Netherlands by Buddy Wells and, of course, has been represented even before there was Tool in the U.S.
[32:36.870 --> 32:40.450] [SPEAKER_02]: Tool was represented internationally at some of your Older Hope events.
[32:40.890 --> 32:45.270] [SPEAKER_02]: Tool then grew so much and drew so much support that a U.S.
[32:45.410 --> 32:55.210] [SPEAKER_02]: branch of Tool now exists and has, in fact, grown larger than the small Dutch community, which is still kicking and alive, still doing very, very well.
[32:55.370 --> 32:57.570] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have close ties with those guys over there.
[32:57.570 --> 33:00.450] [SPEAKER_02]: But now we have chapters all throughout the U.S.
[33:00.450 --> 33:09.950] [SPEAKER_02]: and even in New York City, finally, after many false starts, the New York City meeting takes place on the third Tuesday of the month up in Washington Heights at a bar called La Kayla.
[33:10.890 --> 33:11.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[33:11.470 --> 33:13.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's great news to hear that.
[33:13.730 --> 33:16.750] [SPEAKER_01]: It's expanded so much and become more popular.
[33:17.690 --> 33:22.590] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you tell people who have no conception of what lockpicking is all about or think it's only for criminals?
[33:23.750 --> 33:27.230] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we just think that it's a really fun puzzle, you know.
[33:27.330 --> 33:36.610] [SPEAKER_02]: We can tell people that there are many ways that you might choose to explore the world and might choose to learn new skills that could be considered criminal or dangerous.
[33:36.610 --> 33:44.150] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you could say that it sounds almost as strange to us as someone saying, ooh, your kid takes Kung Fu or Aikido?
[33:44.530 --> 33:46.110] [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, that's those martial arts.
[33:46.210 --> 33:47.210] [SPEAKER_02]: Is he some kind of criminal?
[33:47.450 --> 33:48.930] [SPEAKER_02]: Is he going to go out and mug people?
[33:49.010 --> 33:49.870] [SPEAKER_02]: And you say, well, no.
[33:50.390 --> 33:55.270] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about a mastery of a unique skill, a new way of thinking, a new way of acting.
[33:55.710 --> 33:58.130] [SPEAKER_02]: And we just view locks as a fun challenge.
[33:58.130 --> 34:01.550] [SPEAKER_02]: They are a great activity, either solo or in groups.
[34:02.170 --> 34:03.670] [SPEAKER_02]: They're a puzzle to be solved.
[34:03.670 --> 34:19.930] [SPEAKER_02]: So Tool has and will always be a non-profit, just academic and research organization designed to convey knowledge to people in a casual, hobbyist way with a kind of a tilt towards, let's figure out these fun puzzles.
[34:20.630 --> 34:27.010] [SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds like something that really ties into the hacker world as far as solving puzzles and overcoming challenges.
[34:27.470 --> 34:28.190] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[34:28.190 --> 34:34.830] [SPEAKER_02]: And there is no doubt that there is a certain raised eyebrow factor that appeals very heavily to the hacker type.
[34:34.990 --> 34:45.370] [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that it is conflated with this dark knowledge or closed circles of information, it definitely upped the appeal more than, let's say, I don't know, knitting.
[34:46.230 --> 34:47.790] [SPEAKER_02]: But, well, they're one and the same.
[34:47.790 --> 34:49.530] [SPEAKER_02]: They're just a fun craft with your hands.
[34:50.010 --> 34:57.470] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the thing about it, too, is in the presentations I've seen given at Hope, you know, there's a lot of research that happens in Tool and a lot of it gets published.
[34:57.710 --> 35:15.990] [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, if there's a lock out there that's horribly insecure in some manner and people are installing it thinking that it is protecting, you know, their home or their belongings or their office or whatever it is, then, you know, someone is going to figure out that this vulnerability exists and it's better that it's published and out there and people are aware of it than it just kind of goes
[35:15.990 --> 35:16.650] [SPEAKER_07]: under the radar.
[35:16.910 --> 35:21.010] [SPEAKER_07]: And so, you know, that's another kind of interesting part of the lockpicking community.
[35:21.010 --> 35:25.570] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's like a hacker finding a vulnerability and publishing that.
[35:25.730 --> 35:26.510] [SPEAKER_07]: It's the same kind of thing.
[35:27.230 --> 35:33.890] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we believe very strongly in the whole idea of physical security works in the same principles that digital security does.
[35:34.170 --> 35:36.670] [SPEAKER_02]: Openness is what achieves the best results.
[35:37.090 --> 35:37.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead, Barney.
[35:37.910 --> 35:44.090] [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to mention, all you were just talking about, it's what Mark was saying about exposing vulnerability of locks.
[35:44.090 --> 35:58.650] [SPEAKER_03]: A few years ago, there was that, the famous Kryptonite bicycle lock was, it became, actually hackers sort of made it well known that you could very easily open one of those with a, with a big pen, ballpoint pen.
[35:58.710 --> 35:58.970] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[35:59.190 --> 36:07.130] [SPEAKER_03]: And Kryptonite, the company, or their father, their mother company, to their credit, exchanged them all for a more secure lock.
[36:07.130 --> 36:13.990] [SPEAKER_03]: But bikes were getting stolen en masse, you know, lots of bikes were getting stolen because of this vulnerability.
[36:14.670 --> 36:23.030] [SPEAKER_03]: And the company didn't do anything about it until the hacker community made them, held them accountable and said, hey, this lock is not secure.
[36:23.790 --> 36:27.730] [SPEAKER_03]: And then it all was, it was an improved situation.
[36:27.730 --> 36:29.830] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure Devian can elaborate on that.
[36:30.650 --> 36:33.130] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes, that was one of the more famous cases.
[36:33.370 --> 36:38.630] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a real jaw dropper simply because of the real low-tech rudimentary tool.
[36:38.830 --> 36:39.850] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you can't even call it a tool.
[36:39.990 --> 36:51.390] [SPEAKER_02]: As Bernie says, it was the plastic barrel portion of a, you know, disposable Bic pen, a ballpoint pen, which just happened to be the right shape to fit in the tubular locking keyway.
[36:51.390 --> 36:54.010] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just, just malleable enough.
[36:54.490 --> 37:02.710] [SPEAKER_02]: And the lock was designed with just poor enough tolerances that jamming the pen in there and wiggling it around and twisting it would cause the lock to open many times.
[37:03.010 --> 37:13.890] [SPEAKER_02]: For all the listeners, I should point out that it is not a weakness shared by all tubular style locks, also known sometimes as Chicago or Ace Locks, some of which are designed very well.
[37:13.890 --> 37:21.470] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the original Chicago lock company, the maker of what is called the Ace Lock, the proper branded Ace Lock, is a nice lock.
[37:21.670 --> 37:27.390] [SPEAKER_02]: But with anything, once patents expire and knockoffs appear, you get a wider range of quality.
[37:27.490 --> 37:30.370] [SPEAKER_02]: And this was an example of locks on the lower end of that.
[37:30.890 --> 37:32.030] [SPEAKER_02]: And your story is correct.
[37:32.030 --> 37:33.310] [SPEAKER_02]: They did change the design.
[37:33.310 --> 37:43.110] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the end, you no longer find that classic, you know, U-shaped master bike lock, kryptonite bike lock, with a tubular design key at all.
[37:44.090 --> 37:51.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, this leads into what we're offering tonight for the fundraiser here at WBAI.
[37:51.570 --> 37:57.590] [SPEAKER_01]: This is something that is offered through TOOL, the Open Organization of Lock Pickers.
[37:57.790 --> 38:01.310] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a beginner's blend pick kit.
[38:01.670 --> 38:06.410] [SPEAKER_01]: And what that is, is a collection of...
[38:06.410 --> 38:09.230] [SPEAKER_01]: How many of them are there, Deviant?
[38:09.530 --> 38:10.430] [SPEAKER_02]: There are eight.
[38:10.570 --> 38:10.750] [SPEAKER_02]: Eight.
[38:10.750 --> 38:14.070] [SPEAKER_02]: There are two tensioners, two hooks, two rakes, two diamonds.
[38:14.510 --> 38:14.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[38:15.030 --> 38:36.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you know what that means, and you know how valuable that is, if you don't know what that means, we can let you know that that will get you started figuring out ways to bypass, to get through certain locks or to get around things that maybe you locked yourself out of or just to learn how a lock works in the first place.
[38:36.030 --> 38:40.750] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very important to have this skill, this information.
[38:40.750 --> 38:47.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people, a lot of kids are playing with these tools and figuring things out as far as how to open things.
[38:48.250 --> 38:48.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[38:48.490 --> 38:53.290] [SPEAKER_07]: At all the hacker conferences I've been to lately, if there's a lock picking tent, it's usually full of children.
[38:53.950 --> 38:54.590] [SPEAKER_07]: It's incredible.
[38:54.590 --> 38:54.830] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[38:54.830 --> 38:58.730] [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, they'll also have, you know, a children's hour or something where kids can call them.
[38:58.730 --> 39:02.350] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like three or four-year-olds we're talking about that really have skills.
[39:02.850 --> 39:03.610] [SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible.
[39:03.730 --> 39:03.890] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[39:03.970 --> 39:04.350] [SPEAKER_01]: We love it.
[39:04.350 --> 39:04.570] [SPEAKER_01]: A little scary.
[39:04.870 --> 39:05.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[39:05.510 --> 39:06.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't it something?
[39:06.270 --> 39:08.110] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really incredible.
[39:08.350 --> 39:08.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[39:08.570 --> 39:22.630] [SPEAKER_04]: There are a ton of great clips on YouTube if you do a couple of searches at all these various hacker conferences, many of which are tools, lock picking tables, and just these young kids getting a hang of it while their parents or guardians are still struggling.
[39:22.970 --> 39:27.910] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's great watching a little girl crack open a lock that mystifies her dad.
[39:28.250 --> 39:34.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also, they get pretty upset, too, when they can't do it, and their little toddler kids are able to do it without any kind of...
[39:34.030 --> 39:44.330] [SPEAKER_01]: So this might be a great little present for a kid, you know, but it also, I think, will be educational to anybody that picks it up and starts playing around with it and just figuring out how it works.
[39:44.450 --> 39:45.230] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, you get that.
[39:45.310 --> 39:49.750] [SPEAKER_01]: You get the beginner's blend, the pick kit, but you also get the emergency pick card.
[39:50.470 --> 39:52.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And, Divya, what is the emergency pick card all about?
[39:53.490 --> 40:02.930] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the emergency pick card, which was actually designed by one of our board members, Babak Chivadi, is a pick kit that you can keep with you at all times.
[40:03.210 --> 40:11.350] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, something we should point out, speaking of this, there's nothing that really prevents anyone from keeping picks on them at all times, most of the places they would go.
[40:11.650 --> 40:14.270] [SPEAKER_02]: Many of your listeners may have questions about legality.
[40:14.830 --> 40:18.950] [SPEAKER_02]: Picks, in general, lock picks, are not treated as illegal in most jurisdictions.
[40:19.450 --> 40:21.510] [SPEAKER_02]: They should, of course, check with their local laws.
[40:21.930 --> 40:24.650] [SPEAKER_02]: We can get into that in a bit, though, if they have further questions.
[40:24.650 --> 40:32.030] [SPEAKER_02]: But as far as picks being carried everywhere goes, you know, picks are tools that are about five to six inches long, and you have them in a little tube.
[40:32.030 --> 40:34.150] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't always have that shoved in your pocket.
[40:34.370 --> 40:40.070] [SPEAKER_02]: The emergency pick card, however, is the exact same size as a credit card.
[40:40.290 --> 40:41.830] [SPEAKER_02]: It slips right in your wallet.
[40:42.090 --> 40:50.690] [SPEAKER_02]: And the frame and the entire metal body of the card can be snapped apart and turned into a functional set of picks and tensioners.
[40:50.690 --> 40:57.990] [SPEAKER_02]: This is, you know, something that often brings to mind, let's say, the business card of our friend Kevin Mitnick, who's been at Kahn's.
[40:58.490 --> 41:01.170] [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't mind that analogy too much.
[41:01.170 --> 41:03.370] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, he's very prominent and everyone sees that.
[41:03.470 --> 41:07.330] [SPEAKER_02]: But Kevin will tell you, his card is a novelty tool.
[41:07.490 --> 41:12.850] [SPEAKER_02]: He likes lock picking, and that's why he designed his business card the way he did, out of thin stamped aluminum.
[41:13.470 --> 41:19.250] [SPEAKER_02]: Our emergency pick kit, however, is actually made of proper 301 hard steel.
[41:19.490 --> 41:23.210] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the same steel used in our high-end tool Fabulous 5 set.
[41:23.770 --> 41:28.410] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is a real, really fully-fledged picking kit.
[41:28.610 --> 41:32.730] [SPEAKER_02]: You can actually open locks with it, as opposed to just sort of show off your cool interests.
[41:32.970 --> 41:45.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me just break in and say that we can get both of those, the Beginner's Blend Pick Kit and the Emergency Pick Card, for a pledge of $75, which is really pretty low for those two items.
[41:45.970 --> 41:49.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And you need to, because it's only going to be offered for the next 20 minutes.
[41:49.130 --> 41:52.350] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to step in and do this now, because we haven't really been pushing.
[41:52.510 --> 41:59.990] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been talking about a lot of stories and other things, and we're supposed to be raising money this hour, and we've gotten no calls, because we haven't been asking for them.
[42:00.130 --> 42:02.810] [SPEAKER_01]: So we need to get a flurry of people calling in.
[42:02.810 --> 42:13.250] [SPEAKER_01]: And I see one call on the line already, which is great, but we need to fill up those phone lines quickly, so that we don't get lectured after the show by people who said that we should have been raising more money.
[42:13.630 --> 42:15.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's the last week that we're doing this.
[42:15.430 --> 42:18.150] [SPEAKER_01]: We won't be doing it next week, and it won't be happening after 8 o'clock either.
[42:18.510 --> 42:20.250] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[42:20.610 --> 42:30.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Pledge of $75 gets you the Beginner's Blend Lock Pick Kit and the Emergency Lock Pick Card, which is definitely something that you won't see offered on NPR or anywhere else.
[42:30.070 --> 42:31.130] [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that right now.
[42:31.330 --> 42:42.530] [SPEAKER_01]: For a pledge of $125, you'll get all that, plus you'll get a full DVD set of every lockpicking talk that has ever been presented at the Hackers on Planet Earth conferences.
[42:42.770 --> 42:55.370] [SPEAKER_01]: And that will encompass all the European lockpickers who have come to our conferences and the American lockpickers and all kinds of different stories throughout the years of various advances and changes in lock technology.
[42:55.370 --> 42:58.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Really educational to have those DVDs as well.
[42:58.190 --> 43:01.490] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a pledge of $125, 212-209-2950.
[43:01.890 --> 43:12.290] [SPEAKER_01]: $75, you get the kit and the card with all kinds of lockpicks that you will learn from and that you can experiment with.
[43:12.410 --> 43:23.470] [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of those talks, too, are pretty funny because, you know, they'll show you the lock and how it's supposed to be so difficult to get into, and then it just kind of falls apart in this hilarious way, the security of the locks.
[43:23.470 --> 43:35.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, again, the parallel to hacking is really incredible because when you try and defeat something over and over again, you get people involved in trying to defeat something, you will defeat it one way or another.
[43:35.930 --> 43:41.370] [SPEAKER_01]: And hardware is a great way to experiment with that theory.
[43:41.610 --> 43:51.970] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the best way I can think of where you at home and the safety of your home can experiment with your locks and figure out how secure, how safe they actually are.
[43:51.970 --> 43:53.930] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't take the manufacturer's words.
[43:54.130 --> 43:59.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't take anyone's words, but other people, other consumers and your own experiences.
[43:59.690 --> 44:01.770] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[44:02.070 --> 44:07.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Join the people calling in right now and get these kits, these cards, these DVDs.
[44:08.030 --> 44:09.890] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really an incredible deal.
[44:10.050 --> 44:11.710] [SPEAKER_07]: I had a quick question for Deviant.
[44:11.930 --> 44:22.010] [SPEAKER_07]: So let's say somebody, when people pledge and they receive their lockpicks, where can they go to find information on how to get started and how to learn if they're not at home, necessarily?
[44:22.770 --> 44:23.370] [SPEAKER_02]: Indeed.
[44:23.850 --> 44:30.930] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can always just point your Internet to, you know, at the Googles is a sort of a broad scattershot way.
[44:31.090 --> 44:39.110] [SPEAKER_02]: But for more specifics, we always recommend if people want to check out Tool, that's T-O-O-O-L, so three O's.
[44:39.670 --> 44:45.670] [SPEAKER_02]: So tool.us or tool.nl is the Dutch site, our other counterparts over there.
[44:45.850 --> 44:52.750] [SPEAKER_02]: But the tool.us site does also contain links to basically all of our presentations and other materials.
[44:53.450 --> 44:57.510] [SPEAKER_02]: All of the resources that we use when running Lockpick Villages, it's all up there.
[44:57.890 --> 44:59.090] [SPEAKER_02]: All the diagrams.
[44:59.410 --> 45:04.730] [SPEAKER_02]: There are links that lead from there to my site, or people can just kind of Google my name and find me.
[45:04.870 --> 45:09.610] [SPEAKER_02]: I put all of my animations and diagrams and content all online.
[45:10.310 --> 45:16.190] [SPEAKER_02]: As Emmanuel has said, of course, those DVDs, the presentations, having the actual videos from the talks are great.
[45:16.630 --> 45:22.610] [SPEAKER_02]: Because people, you know, put a lot of time and effort into trying to show, you know, really show something visual on the screen.
[45:22.870 --> 45:25.770] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not, as you guys know, it's not your usual presentation.
[45:25.990 --> 45:27.770] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just a lot of text on a page.
[45:27.770 --> 45:31.350] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of good video and images that gets put up there.
[45:31.570 --> 45:31.930] [SPEAKER_02]: Emmanuel?
[45:32.250 --> 45:33.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Bernie, go ahead.
[45:33.150 --> 45:33.930] [SPEAKER_01]: Please bring in some calls.
[45:34.030 --> 45:35.210] [SPEAKER_01]: We have two on the line right now.
[45:35.310 --> 45:38.410] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a third one coming in, but we really need to bring in a lot more than that.
[45:38.470 --> 45:40.450] [SPEAKER_03]: As Stephen was saying, some of these Hope videos are great.
[45:40.550 --> 45:43.090] [SPEAKER_03]: We use a high-resolution document camera.
[45:43.230 --> 45:48.050] [SPEAKER_03]: So the speaker actually points a camera down into the cylinder of the lock.
[45:48.190 --> 45:56.470] [SPEAKER_03]: So on the big screen at Hope, you can see down inside the lock and see the actual picking of the cylinder and manipulating the lock.
[45:56.550 --> 45:57.550] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is a great opportunity.
[45:57.550 --> 46:09.370] [SPEAKER_03]: If you've ever been curious about locks, if you've ever locked yourself out of some place, and who hasn't, wouldn't you feel more secure, having a lock-pick set in your wallet or in your pocket, call 212-209-2950.
[46:09.830 --> 46:16.810] [SPEAKER_03]: This is a great... I mean, besides just having... you just feel more confident when you know you could walk into almost... you'd be like Gumby.
[46:16.910 --> 46:17.990] [SPEAKER_03]: You can walk into any door.
[46:19.470 --> 46:20.350] [SPEAKER_03]: But preferably...
[46:20.350 --> 46:29.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's exercise some caution here because we don't want people, you know, breaking into liquor stores and, you know, high-security vehicles and things like that.
[46:29.650 --> 46:30.090] [SPEAKER_01]: It's...
[46:30.090 --> 46:34.790] [SPEAKER_01]: knowledge does not have to be used just for criminal intent.
[46:34.810 --> 46:36.130] [SPEAKER_01]: It's used for education.
[46:36.130 --> 46:39.510] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we've been trying to push for many, many years now.
[46:39.650 --> 46:40.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and absolutely.
[46:40.590 --> 46:51.410] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you don't want to use the skill to open up something that you shouldn't, you can use what you learned to protect things that you want to and that you think should be secured.
[46:51.530 --> 46:52.810] [SPEAKER_04]: You can learn what not to do.
[46:52.930 --> 46:58.690] [SPEAKER_04]: You can learn exactly how worthless the generic locks that everyone has in their front doors really are.
[46:59.070 --> 47:00.530] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a real eye-opener, this stuff.
[47:00.630 --> 47:07.110] [SPEAKER_04]: If you've never looked into it, if you've never been into it before, it's really... it really changes the way you look at a lot of what we take for granted about security.
[47:07.290 --> 47:12.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't need special skills other than the ability to learn and experiment.
[47:12.830 --> 47:22.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And when you get this kit, I think you'll learn a lot more as far as how it's all put together, how the lock actually functions.
[47:22.790 --> 47:23.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you'll know.
[47:23.490 --> 47:26.630] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll be able to tell if something is secure in the future.
[47:27.170 --> 47:27.270] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[47:27.450 --> 47:31.030] [SPEAKER_06]: Please call 212-209-2950 and pledge.
[47:31.310 --> 47:34.070] [SPEAKER_06]: I personally would be interested in a kit like this.
[47:34.230 --> 47:46.750] [SPEAKER_06]: Having the tools just on your person, and even if you've never done it before and you don't really understand how lockpicking works, if you have the tools, kind of like the radio station.
[47:46.910 --> 47:49.390] [SPEAKER_06]: If you have the tool, you can use it.
[47:49.470 --> 47:51.810] [SPEAKER_06]: In the heat of the moment, you'll learn pretty quick.
[47:51.990 --> 47:57.890] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't even begin to recall how many times I've been maybe locked out of something or I need access to something.
[47:58.030 --> 47:59.250] [SPEAKER_06]: I just had the key.
[47:59.670 --> 48:01.970] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's critical, just having the tool.
[48:02.230 --> 48:04.050] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, wow, I have it in my pocket.
[48:04.670 --> 48:05.790] [SPEAKER_06]: I've never done this before.
[48:05.830 --> 48:06.990] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're going to be stuck there.
[48:07.070 --> 48:08.090] [SPEAKER_06]: You can't get into something.
[48:08.210 --> 48:11.730] [SPEAKER_06]: You learn and fly by the seat of your pants, that kind of thing.
[48:11.730 --> 48:12.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And what is a key?
[48:12.810 --> 48:20.790] [SPEAKER_01]: A key is basically an access control device that says you have the authorization to do this.
[48:20.810 --> 48:30.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And by carrying this kit around or the emergency pick card, you won't be restricted in what you can access.
[48:30.370 --> 48:36.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's something in your house, whether it's your car, whether it's your office, you always have the ability to get around a restriction.
[48:36.910 --> 48:38.670] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[48:38.870 --> 48:40.410] [SPEAKER_01]: We have four calls on the line right now.
[48:40.930 --> 48:42.610] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to bring in more.
[48:42.950 --> 48:54.310] [SPEAKER_01]: A pledge of $75 gets you the beginner's blend lockpick kit with eight picks that are the pretty basic ones that will get through quite a few locks, I believe.
[48:54.570 --> 48:57.710] [SPEAKER_01]: You have the emergency pick card, which you can carry in your wallet or your pocket.
[48:58.230 --> 49:00.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And never worry about losing a key again.
[49:00.870 --> 49:06.330] [SPEAKER_01]: If you take a little bit of time to learn how it all works and experiment, you'll become quite good at this.
[49:06.450 --> 49:11.370] [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll find that that's like skill worth having in many situations and certainly a good conversation piece too.
[49:11.750 --> 49:14.530] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950 for a pledge of $125.
[49:15.170 --> 49:23.010] [SPEAKER_01]: You get the kit and the card plus a full DVD set of every lockpicking talk that we've ever presented at the Hackers on Planet Earth conferences.
[49:23.390 --> 49:25.610] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[49:25.970 --> 49:33.470] [SPEAKER_04]: And I also want to say about these tools in particular, if you have been into lockpicking or you've looked at it, you know there are some cheap tools out there.
[49:33.550 --> 49:35.450] [SPEAKER_04]: There are some low quality junky ones out there.
[49:36.210 --> 49:37.650] [SPEAKER_04]: But Tool knows what they're doing.
[49:37.790 --> 49:40.130] [SPEAKER_04]: I have a set of the, I have one of the breakaway cards.
[49:40.650 --> 49:49.350] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a really solid piece of equipment for, you know, it's really, it really feels like, it really feels like I could pick something with it.
[49:49.430 --> 49:51.470] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't used it yet, but I hope to one day.
[49:51.570 --> 49:52.610] [SPEAKER_04]: You're not afraid to use it, are you?
[49:52.970 --> 49:54.250] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not afraid of anything.
[49:54.370 --> 50:01.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's been, you know, what you might want, what you might be afraid of is that sense of power you get when you actually use it and realize, wow, I understand this.
[50:01.290 --> 50:01.990] [SPEAKER_01]: I can make this work.
[50:02.150 --> 50:04.250] [SPEAKER_01]: I can do something I didn't think I could do.
[50:04.510 --> 50:08.410] [SPEAKER_01]: And this, this is what the key is actually doing when it goes into the lock.
[50:08.590 --> 50:09.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I am the key.
[50:09.930 --> 50:10.690] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm working it out.
[50:10.790 --> 50:13.830] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm figuring out how the whole device operates.
[50:14.090 --> 50:16.850] [SPEAKER_01]: It is such a rush when you get that feeling.
[50:17.130 --> 50:23.710] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why kids are drawn to it so much because they, they seem to instinctively get that, that, that sensation.
[50:24.450 --> 50:26.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're offering this opportunity to our listeners.
[50:26.710 --> 50:28.090] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[50:28.090 --> 50:29.810] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I am afraid of, though?
[50:29.890 --> 50:32.650] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm afraid of losing the card because it's just really cool in card form.
[50:32.670 --> 50:36.030] [SPEAKER_04]: So I may have to get another one and break that one up.
[50:36.030 --> 50:36.810] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll always have.
[50:37.010 --> 50:37.290] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[50:37.410 --> 50:40.510] [SPEAKER_02]: The other one is your, your backup that you can always actually use.
[50:40.950 --> 50:48.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Devian, let me ask you, um, someone who gets this, uh, who gets either the kit or the card, and if you call us now, you'll get both.
[50:49.210 --> 50:53.470] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, does somebody know, uh, instinctively how to use it?
[50:53.570 --> 50:54.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there instructions?
[50:54.830 --> 50:57.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, how, how difficult is this to use for the first time?
[50:58.190 --> 51:05.650] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think, uh, if you'd speak to anyone who's ever actually tried lock picking and sat down, they'll say it's, it really is easy to pick up.
[51:06.170 --> 51:13.310] [SPEAKER_02]: Once you, you know, just, you see, oh, this piece goes in here and I try to turn it a little bit and then this piece goes in here and I move, am I doing it?
[51:13.390 --> 51:14.130] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm moving it like this.
[51:14.210 --> 51:14.690] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I doing it?
[51:14.730 --> 51:15.230] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I doing it?
[51:15.290 --> 51:18.490] [SPEAKER_02]: And then all of a sudden the lock opens and they say, whoa, I guess I was.
[51:18.850 --> 51:19.210] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[51:19.270 --> 51:22.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I guarantee, you know, I know there are a lot of naysayers out there.
[51:22.090 --> 51:31.730] [SPEAKER_01]: There were always a lot of naysayers out there, In particular, in this particular case that we're talking about right now, a lot of people saying only criminals will want to use this particular type of technology.
[51:32.170 --> 51:42.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Utter nonsense, because I guarantee in anybody's life, there will come a time where having this skill, having these tools will be of great benefit to you, could even save a life.
[51:42.930 --> 51:55.710] [SPEAKER_01]: There are many instances where I've been unable to get into something I need to get into that I have access to, but for some reason, I don't have the key, or someone's stolen the key, or something is malfunctioning.
[51:55.870 --> 52:03.310] [SPEAKER_01]: And having the know-how, having the access, having the hardware is really something that comes in very handy.
[52:03.530 --> 52:09.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, a pledge of $75 gets you two separate devices that will make this so much easier.
[52:10.130 --> 52:21.150] [SPEAKER_01]: You get the Beginner's Blend Lockpicking Kit, the Emergency Lockpicking Card provided by the open organization of Lockpickers tool here in the USA.
[52:22.050 --> 52:32.530] [SPEAKER_01]: Pledge $75, 212-209-2950, pledge $125, all of that, plus a full DVD set of lockpicking seminars, talks at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference.
[52:32.910 --> 52:40.730] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an incredible deal, one that we've never offered before, one that we will not be offering in seven minutes, because that's when we're off the air.
[52:41.390 --> 52:45.630] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, it's the last week of our fun drive, so we won't be offering it next week.
[52:45.830 --> 52:52.470] [SPEAKER_01]: Most importantly, the most important reason to call up, though, is to keep this radio station on the air, because we can talk about things like this.
[52:53.010 --> 52:54.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Tune to any other radio station.
[52:54.410 --> 52:56.910] [SPEAKER_01]: You won't be able to have a conversation about lockpicking.
[52:57.110 --> 53:01.830] [SPEAKER_01]: No, because to teach people how to pick locks, that's giving up control.
[53:02.230 --> 53:07.030] [SPEAKER_01]: And most corporate radio is all about control, right?
[53:07.150 --> 53:14.630] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is one small step in that direction, and it pretty much epitomizes what WBAI stands for.
[53:14.810 --> 53:20.790] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to keep that particular bastion of free speech alive, please give a call now, 212-209-2950.
[53:20.790 --> 53:30.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Since 1960, that is how we've stayed on the air, from people calling in and pledging and showing support and coming up with great ideas for new things to talk about.
[53:30.810 --> 53:31.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Tonight's no exception.
[53:32.230 --> 53:37.830] [SPEAKER_01]: On this radio station, in a typical week, you'll hear hundreds, thousands of different ideas and alternative viewpoints.
[53:38.190 --> 53:38.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Support that.
[53:39.030 --> 53:41.350] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[53:41.790 --> 53:48.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone said it before as sort of a throwaway line, but I really want to repeat that NPR would not offer you lockpicks as a premium.
[53:49.110 --> 53:56.830] [SPEAKER_05]: If they did a program about lockpicking, that would be strange enough, but they would offer you as a premium a tote bag with a photograph of a lockpick on it.
[53:57.070 --> 54:01.350] [SPEAKER_05]: And it would be great, and NPR would be great, and the program would be great, and all that.
[54:01.490 --> 54:05.210] [SPEAKER_05]: But WBAI believes that you should have the tools to change your own reality.
[54:05.710 --> 54:06.970] [SPEAKER_05]: You should learn to do this.
[54:07.050 --> 54:07.850] [SPEAKER_05]: You can do it as a hobby.
[54:08.010 --> 54:09.390] [SPEAKER_05]: You can do it for practical purposes.
[54:09.610 --> 54:11.010] [SPEAKER_05]: You can do it for no reason at all.
[54:11.870 --> 54:13.350] [SPEAKER_05]: But we want you to decide.
[54:13.450 --> 54:19.090] [SPEAKER_05]: 212-209-2950 is the number to call to get these lockpicks, and you can play with them.
[54:19.250 --> 54:20.010] [SPEAKER_05]: See if you like it.
[54:20.230 --> 54:22.030] [SPEAKER_01]: We have two calls on the line right now.
[54:22.150 --> 54:23.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's make that five.
[54:24.190 --> 54:24.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[54:25.230 --> 54:31.290] [SPEAKER_03]: I want everybody listening to WBAI and Off The Hook right now to get a particular look on their face.
[54:31.490 --> 54:41.710] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the precious look that I see at every HOPE conference in the lockpick village, where someone has, a beginner has picked their first lock, and it pops open.
[54:41.890 --> 54:44.550] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a look of shock and awe on their face.
[54:44.650 --> 54:46.290] [SPEAKER_03]: They can't believe what they just accomplished.
[54:46.810 --> 54:49.710] [SPEAKER_03]: And it just, it just, it changed, and people say it just changed their life.
[54:49.710 --> 54:54.830] [SPEAKER_03]: It just opens up doors for them, not to be punny, but it does.
[54:55.490 --> 54:57.790] [SPEAKER_03]: Call 212-209-2950.
[54:58.150 --> 54:59.470] [SPEAKER_03]: Get that look on your face.
[54:59.470 --> 55:01.310] [SPEAKER_03]: You will be so impressed with yourself.
[55:01.530 --> 55:04.390] [SPEAKER_03]: You will get a new sense of confidence that you understand.
[55:04.490 --> 55:10.030] [SPEAKER_03]: You understand how the locks work in your house, your car, your business, wherever you're allowed to have access to.
[55:10.170 --> 55:10.790] [SPEAKER_03]: You know.
[55:10.930 --> 55:18.950] [SPEAKER_03]: You'll be able to test to see the security of the locks that you paid a lot of money for and may actually get a false sense of security and realize, this is a crappy lock.
[55:18.970 --> 55:19.570] [SPEAKER_03]: I better change it.
[55:19.610 --> 55:21.670] [SPEAKER_03]: I could pick it in three seconds, and so could anybody else.
[55:22.230 --> 55:23.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we have... go ahead.
[55:23.390 --> 55:25.430] [SPEAKER_03]: 212-209-2950.
[55:25.670 --> 55:30.950] [SPEAKER_03]: A pledge is $75 to get to you the blend pick set and the emergency pick card.
[55:31.770 --> 55:42.010] [SPEAKER_03]: Or if you want to pledge $125, you get both of those pick sets, plus a complete set of HOPE DVDs that show all the HOPE lock picking tutorials.
[55:42.210 --> 55:45.190] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of them really show you deep inside the lock and how to pick it and so forth.
[55:45.370 --> 55:47.290] [SPEAKER_03]: 212-209-2950.
[55:47.550 --> 55:48.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Five calls on the line.
[55:49.030 --> 55:50.050] [SPEAKER_01]: We've got five calls on the line.
[55:50.130 --> 56:01.510] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to thank people for showing support and realizing what Barney has been saying, what Deviant has been saying, what so many of us have been saying over the years, that this kind of thing is important, that this matters.
[56:02.110 --> 56:21.470] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the lock picking kit that we're talking about, the first one, the first of two, just to get technical here, they include two hooks, a standard and a Euro slim, two half diamonds, a thick hard model and a thin slender one, and two rakes, a snake and a Bogata-style wave jiggler.
[56:22.090 --> 56:22.450] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[56:22.890 --> 56:25.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I just wanted to, I wanted to make sure that was clear.
[56:26.030 --> 56:26.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[56:26.510 --> 56:33.990] [SPEAKER_02]: So the interesting thing, when people hear, oh, you know, a basic pick kit, they think, well, you know, that's, I guess that's something I could get anywhere.
[56:34.190 --> 56:38.850] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, that is, you know, sold by many vendors of lock picking and lock spitting supplies.
[56:39.090 --> 56:41.510] [SPEAKER_02]: Many of them say, well, here's our starter set.
[56:41.650 --> 56:42.690] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's our 10 piece.
[56:42.870 --> 56:43.730] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's our 12 piece.
[56:43.810 --> 56:44.590] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's our eight piece.
[56:44.830 --> 56:49.350] [SPEAKER_02]: And they all float in this same, you know, little above price range.
[56:49.530 --> 56:54.090] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a real major price investment, but they're all thought of as the same.
[56:54.430 --> 57:12.670] [SPEAKER_02]: What you'll get, however, from any vendor, and there are plenty of decent ones out there, you'll tend to get a number of different tools all in the same metal stock, all in the same, you know, cut profile, because supply houses tend to be very loyal to whatever metal they like to use and machine.
[57:12.970 --> 57:18.030] [SPEAKER_02]: What Tool has done is cultivated relationships with any number of vendors.
[57:18.350 --> 57:24.350] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not a uniform, homogenous set of, you know, five, 10 of the same thing.
[57:24.530 --> 57:34.810] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a sampling of different tools from different suppliers and different types of metals, different thicknesses, which is really not something anyone could get on their own by themselves.
[57:34.970 --> 57:42.330] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you could, if you bought seven different pick kits from all around the country and put a few pieces of each into a tube.
[57:42.950 --> 57:45.290] [SPEAKER_02]: But then at that point, you're spending hundreds of your own dollars.
[57:45.710 --> 57:48.250] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, Devian, I hate to cut you off, but we are out of time.
[57:48.310 --> 57:57.630] [SPEAKER_01]: We have seven calls on the line, so that's a great indication that our words are hitting people hard and being heard.
[57:58.270 --> 58:01.630] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a couple of minutes if you want to join those people on the phone.
[58:01.770 --> 58:05.650] [SPEAKER_01]: If the phone keeps ringing and doesn't answer right away, please call right back.
[58:06.050 --> 58:09.010] [SPEAKER_01]: The offer will be here for a few more minutes, not much longer than that.
[58:09.290 --> 58:09.810] [SPEAKER_01]: $75.
[58:09.870 --> 58:12.750] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll get two of the lockpicking kits.
[58:12.970 --> 58:18.630] [SPEAKER_01]: For $125, you'll get those, plus the DVD set, 212-209-2950.
[58:19.990 --> 58:26.090] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, more information on Tool can be found at T-O-O-O-L dot U-S.
[58:26.770 --> 58:30.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll see you again next week with a non-fundraising edition of Off The Hook.
[58:30.690 --> 58:36.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember the 25th anniversary of the 2600 meetings this Friday in various locations, especially New York, though.
[58:37.530 --> 58:39.910] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that phone number, 212-209-2950.
[58:39.910 --> 58:41.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show.
[58:41.530 --> 58:41.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Good night.
[59:12.490 --> 59:12.990] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[59:13.810 --> 59:16.850] [SPEAKER_08]: All right, all right, all right, all right.
[59:17.770 --> 59:26.890] [SPEAKER_08]: All right, you're listening to WBAI, New York 99.5 FM, also streaming on the web at WBAI.org.
[59:26.890 --> 59:27.370] [SPEAKER_08]: R-G.
[59:27.370 --> 59:27.590] [SPEAKER_08]: R-G.