[00:00.000 --> 00:02.320] [SPEAKER_06]: They're still there and they're still talking to each other.
[00:02.860 --> 00:04.480] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's an amazing thing.
[00:04.660 --> 00:06.520] [SPEAKER_06]: So what can you do now?
[00:06.740 --> 00:12.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Come together, figure out what is it that ties all of these issues together and start just hammering away at it.
[00:12.960 --> 00:19.660] [SPEAKER_01]: And that concludes part one to this two-part interview that you're listening to.
[00:19.880 --> 00:24.440] [SPEAKER_01]: Once again, Occupy Wall Street is heard Monday through Friday at 6.30 p.m.
[00:24.800 --> 00:31.480] [SPEAKER_01]: here in the studios of WBAI 99.5 FM in New York and WBAI.org.
[00:33.020 --> 00:36.140] [SPEAKER_05]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:36.140 --> 00:38.280] [SPEAKER_05]: It's exactly 7 o'clock.
[00:38.400 --> 00:42.540] [SPEAKER_05]: And that means, once again, it's time for Off The Hook.
[00:47.950 --> 00:49.790] [SPEAKER_02]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:50.190 --> 00:52.330] [SPEAKER_02]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.370 --> 00:55.310] [SPEAKER_02]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:55.910 --> 00:57.870] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I can't make a cough.
[00:58.670 --> 01:00.650] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:03.500 --> 01:06.100] [SPEAKER_02]: Bum-diddly-bum for the best, it's made the worst.
[01:06.760 --> 01:08.610] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that's understood.
[01:08.820 --> 01:09.610] [SPEAKER_02]: Bum-diddly-bum!
[01:54.370 --> 01:55.870] [SPEAKER_05]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:56.010 --> 01:57.010] [SPEAKER_05]: The program is Off The Hook.
[01:57.090 --> 01:58.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[01:58.290 --> 01:59.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:00.130 --> 02:01.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Greetings from the wind tunnel.
[02:01.950 --> 02:02.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you ruined it.
[02:02.870 --> 02:03.510] [SPEAKER_05]: You ruined the surprise.
[02:03.710 --> 02:04.890] [SPEAKER_05]: I was going to explain that to everybody.
[02:05.830 --> 02:06.390] [SPEAKER_05]: Rob T.
[02:06.530 --> 02:06.930] [SPEAKER_05]: Firefly.
[02:07.090 --> 02:07.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[02:08.850 --> 02:09.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Dot Red.
[02:10.270 --> 02:10.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Jim.
[02:11.470 --> 02:11.870] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[02:14.150 --> 02:15.330] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone's running in.
[02:15.390 --> 02:17.490] [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that's got to be Redhack.
[02:17.710 --> 02:18.910] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's just wait for him.
[02:19.410 --> 02:19.990] [SPEAKER_05]: Redhack, go ahead.
[02:20.070 --> 02:20.510] [SPEAKER_05]: Sit down.
[02:21.130 --> 02:21.790] [SPEAKER_05]: You know what?
[02:21.950 --> 02:22.630] [SPEAKER_05]: No, that's it.
[02:22.730 --> 02:23.030] [SPEAKER_05]: That's it.
[02:23.090 --> 02:23.870] [SPEAKER_05]: This is your last show.
[02:24.050 --> 02:25.390] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to tolerate this anymore.
[02:25.390 --> 02:28.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Or, you've been late too many times.
[02:29.330 --> 02:31.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Just, you know, you can stay for this hour.
[02:31.610 --> 02:33.350] [SPEAKER_05]: You can stay for that, but get out after that.
[02:33.350 --> 02:35.010] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't want to hear your voice again.
[02:35.010 --> 02:35.670] [SPEAKER_05]: All right?
[02:35.970 --> 02:36.330] [SPEAKER_05]: All right?
[02:36.570 --> 02:36.930] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[02:37.170 --> 02:37.490] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[02:37.870 --> 02:38.710] [SPEAKER_05]: That's just the way it has to...
[02:38.710 --> 02:41.270] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes, folks, you have to lay down the law.
[02:41.570 --> 02:44.150] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes you've got to be the bad guy.
[02:44.670 --> 02:45.190] [SPEAKER_05]: You know?
[02:45.350 --> 02:54.410] [SPEAKER_05]: Why don't you move far away, go to the other side of the country or something like that, and just stay there for a while and see how you like that, huh?
[02:54.510 --> 02:55.370] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a pretty good idea.
[02:55.470 --> 02:55.710] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[02:55.810 --> 02:56.330] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe I'll do that.
[02:56.330 --> 02:57.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, why don't you do that?
[02:57.090 --> 02:58.190] [SPEAKER_05]: Starting next week, why don't you do that?
[02:58.270 --> 02:58.490] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[02:58.610 --> 02:58.910] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[02:59.530 --> 03:00.510] [SPEAKER_05]: Come in late on this show.
[03:00.530 --> 03:00.690] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[03:00.770 --> 03:01.250] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's settled.
[03:01.490 --> 03:01.770] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[03:02.090 --> 03:04.090] [SPEAKER_03]: That went remarkably smoothly.
[03:04.530 --> 03:05.470] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, people do what I say.
[03:05.470 --> 03:06.770] [SPEAKER_03]: I would expect confrontation, really.
[03:06.770 --> 03:07.930] [SPEAKER_05]: No, people do what I say.
[03:08.290 --> 03:11.630] [SPEAKER_05]: When you stand up like that and you clench your fists, people...
[03:11.630 --> 03:12.230] [SPEAKER_03]: You're sitting down.
[03:12.310 --> 03:12.790] [SPEAKER_03]: I can see you.
[03:12.890 --> 03:13.430] [SPEAKER_03]: We're in the same room.
[03:13.510 --> 03:15.030] [SPEAKER_05]: I sat down after standing up.
[03:15.130 --> 03:17.210] [SPEAKER_05]: Don't make it difficult, Mike, or you'll be next.
[03:17.570 --> 03:19.650] [SPEAKER_05]: How would you like to wind up in the Philippines or something?
[03:19.730 --> 03:21.130] [SPEAKER_05]: I would argue is all I'm saying.
[03:21.250 --> 03:21.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
[03:22.310 --> 03:23.710] [SPEAKER_05]: We're not finished with the introductions yet.
[03:23.710 --> 03:25.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Our special guest, Steve Rambam.
[03:26.470 --> 03:28.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Steve Rambam is not in that chair like he's supposed to be.
[03:28.570 --> 03:29.010] [SPEAKER_05]: Where is he?
[03:29.110 --> 03:29.870] [SPEAKER_05]: He's supposed to be here.
[03:30.330 --> 03:32.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Do I have to send him someplace now, too?
[03:32.190 --> 03:33.450] [SPEAKER_03]: You should hire a private investigator.
[03:33.770 --> 03:38.890] [SPEAKER_05]: He is a private investigator, and I don't think I could hire him to investigate himself, although that would be a good trick.
[03:39.310 --> 03:40.490] [SPEAKER_05]: It'd be a very easy job for us.
[03:40.510 --> 03:42.430] [SPEAKER_05]: I like how we have his chair empty like that.
[03:42.690 --> 03:44.150] [SPEAKER_05]: Just make sure the microphone...
[03:44.150 --> 03:44.850] [SPEAKER_05]: No, no.
[03:44.970 --> 03:46.750] [SPEAKER_05]: You do not sit in Steve Rambam's chair.
[03:46.970 --> 03:49.110] [SPEAKER_05]: That's one thing you can never do.
[03:49.610 --> 03:55.750] [SPEAKER_05]: But, Dot Red, if you could move the microphone closer to the chair so that way when he is talking, it'll... No, not away from the chair.
[03:55.750 --> 03:56.350] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, okay.
[03:56.410 --> 03:57.190] [SPEAKER_05]: You're using a different microphone.
[03:57.310 --> 03:57.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Fine.
[03:57.710 --> 04:00.610] [SPEAKER_03]: Or we could... You could have that microphone, and we could move the microphones.
[04:00.910 --> 04:03.150] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, this is just getting off to a great start, isn't it?
[04:03.470 --> 04:04.470] [SPEAKER_05]: We're not even finished yet.
[04:04.710 --> 04:06.310] [SPEAKER_05]: Down in Philadelphia, we have Bernie...
[04:06.310 --> 04:06.730] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, wait a minute.
[04:06.790 --> 04:07.010] [SPEAKER_05]: Hold on.
[04:07.370 --> 04:09.310] [SPEAKER_05]: Somewhere in Pennsylvania is Bernie S.
[04:09.470 --> 04:10.530] [SPEAKER_13]: Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[04:10.710 --> 04:10.890] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[04:10.890 --> 04:11.690] [SPEAKER_05]: I got it right this week.
[04:11.830 --> 04:16.750] [SPEAKER_05]: And out on the West Coast, where I believe RedHack will soon be relocating.
[04:17.710 --> 04:19.850] [SPEAKER_05]: And see... This person, though, is in Seattle.
[04:19.990 --> 04:21.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Not where I think you're going to go.
[04:21.370 --> 04:23.850] [SPEAKER_05]: So, Kyle, how are you there?
[04:24.510 --> 04:25.230] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I'm here.
[04:25.330 --> 04:25.470] [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[04:25.570 --> 04:26.290] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry.
[04:26.470 --> 04:27.830] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry for all the craziness.
[04:28.370 --> 04:30.270] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just... And I think it's the heat.
[04:30.610 --> 04:32.290] [SPEAKER_05]: There is no air conditioning in here.
[04:32.490 --> 04:34.990] [SPEAKER_05]: If you listen, this is what Mike was referring to before.
[04:36.730 --> 04:38.010] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a fan going.
[04:38.630 --> 04:41.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, this is just like WUSB, where I always complain about the heat.
[04:41.630 --> 04:45.630] [SPEAKER_05]: Except now it's come to WBAI, where for some reason we don't have any air in here.
[04:45.630 --> 04:49.110] [SPEAKER_05]: So, we have to have a... Are we going to keep the fan going for the whole show?
[04:49.330 --> 04:49.650] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[04:50.110 --> 04:52.270] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I guess we have to breathe, don't we?
[04:52.590 --> 04:53.550] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it feels great.
[04:53.550 --> 04:54.650] [SPEAKER_05]: It's right on the back of my head.
[04:54.730 --> 04:56.670] [SPEAKER_05]: You're sitting right in front of it, and you're blocking all the air.
[04:56.870 --> 04:58.510] [SPEAKER_05]: That's another issue.
[04:59.030 --> 05:00.870] [SPEAKER_03]: It's mostly that monitor, I think, for you.
[05:01.570 --> 05:03.770] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure our radio audience really wants to know.
[05:03.970 --> 05:09.130] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's also... Do you notice these lights, these bright lights that are shining down right on me, like I'm being interrogated?
[05:09.210 --> 05:10.970] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is what it feels like a lot of times.
[05:11.170 --> 05:13.010] [SPEAKER_03]: Where were you on the night of the 12th?
[05:13.010 --> 05:13.350] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[05:14.070 --> 05:14.490] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[05:14.610 --> 05:15.890] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah.
[05:16.150 --> 05:16.270] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[05:16.570 --> 05:18.610] [SPEAKER_05]: Speaking of interrogation, we have...
[05:18.610 --> 05:21.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully, Steve will be here soon, and we have some things to talk about with him.
[05:21.870 --> 05:24.650] [SPEAKER_05]: But we also have some announcements to make and some adventures to relate.
[05:24.790 --> 05:26.410] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where Kyle comes in, because...
[05:26.410 --> 05:28.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he's back in Washington right now for a couple of weeks.
[05:29.550 --> 05:36.210] [SPEAKER_05]: But before he left, in a hurry, we had a bit of an adventure a couple of states away.
[05:36.210 --> 05:42.830] [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, you can get a more detailed version of this on Last Night's Off the Wall, which you can also find on www.2600.com.
[05:43.010 --> 05:44.390] [SPEAKER_05]: But we...
[05:45.050 --> 05:48.650] [SPEAKER_05]: In the tradition of visiting Menwith Hill last month...
[05:49.250 --> 05:50.250] [SPEAKER_05]: That was last month, wasn't it?
[05:50.530 --> 05:50.730] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[05:50.890 --> 05:51.070] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[05:51.870 --> 05:55.330] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is a massive monitoring post in the north of England.
[05:55.990 --> 06:10.810] [SPEAKER_05]: We decided, for the sake of next year's Hacker Calendar, whose theme is surveillance, to visit the good old folks down in Fort Meade, Maryland, who run the National Security Agency, otherwise known as the NSA.
[06:12.190 --> 06:20.550] [SPEAKER_05]: We decided to drive down there and snap some photos and see what we can put in the calendar as far as representing surveillance in this country.
[06:20.730 --> 06:25.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And you cannot represent surveillance better than just taking a look at the NSA complex over there.
[06:25.610 --> 06:28.730] [SPEAKER_05]: It didn't quite go as planned, though, did it, Kyle?
[06:30.170 --> 06:31.450] [SPEAKER_10]: No, not entirely.
[06:32.170 --> 06:41.610] [SPEAKER_10]: We were able to check out the area and the community that sort of supports the main campus, which is really sprawling.
[06:43.290 --> 06:55.450] [SPEAKER_10]: And we looked for signs of surveillance there and then got closer to the actual facility and looked for some vantage points and found a little bit.
[06:55.610 --> 07:05.670] [SPEAKER_10]: But we were sobbed, actually, towards the latter part of our journey.
[07:05.910 --> 07:17.610] [SPEAKER_10]: We were at a museum, like a visitor's center, and we had to show ID and, you know, explain, like, why we were there.
[07:17.610 --> 07:21.010] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let me just explain before we get into that part of it.
[07:21.410 --> 07:28.070] [SPEAKER_05]: Basically, we spent a couple of hours just driving around trying to see if we could get onto the campus at all, because in the past, it wasn't a hard thing to do.
[07:28.230 --> 07:29.690] [SPEAKER_05]: You could drive right up to the building.
[07:29.910 --> 07:34.570] [SPEAKER_05]: You could drive over to the massive radio telescope satellite dish type things that they have over there.
[07:35.510 --> 07:38.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Bernie, maybe you have an idea as to what those massive things are.
[07:38.490 --> 07:39.830] [SPEAKER_05]: You could fit a house on one of them.
[07:40.410 --> 07:43.090] [SPEAKER_06]: You mean these big look like gigantic golf balls?
[07:43.090 --> 07:49.350] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, these ones, as I recall, and I can't tell anymore because I can't get near them, they didn't have the golf ball things over them.
[07:49.710 --> 07:51.230] [SPEAKER_05]: They do have the golf ball things.
[07:52.110 --> 07:53.770] [SPEAKER_06]: They're just massive satellite dishes.
[07:53.970 --> 07:55.090] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, massive satellite dishes.
[07:55.230 --> 07:57.010] [SPEAKER_06]: Like a DirecTV dish times 1,000.
[07:57.190 --> 07:58.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I don't think they're just watching movies.
[07:58.850 --> 08:00.490] [SPEAKER_05]: I think they must be doing something else, right?
[08:00.710 --> 08:01.670] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they probably could be.
[08:01.830 --> 08:04.130] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, think of the movies they could pull in with that thing, frankly.
[08:04.690 --> 08:06.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Movies from extraterrestrial planets and things, yeah.
[08:06.890 --> 08:09.010] [SPEAKER_06]: They can pull in Al Minar, and I'm sure they do.
[08:09.010 --> 08:15.490] [SPEAKER_06]: But in any case, they are monitoring all kinds of what's called SIGINT signals.
[08:15.670 --> 08:19.510] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a military abbreviation or acronym for signals intelligence.
[08:20.190 --> 08:27.030] [SPEAKER_06]: From all the satellites that are up there, a lot of major countries have surveillance satellites up there, spy satellites that are sending down digital data.
[08:27.170 --> 08:27.750] [SPEAKER_06]: It's all encrypted.
[08:27.990 --> 08:32.270] [SPEAKER_06]: But as we know, the NSA, their game is encryption and the breaking thereof.
[08:32.270 --> 08:39.170] [SPEAKER_06]: So they're sucking down all this stuff and analyzing it, doing traffic analysis when they can't decrypt it.
[08:39.290 --> 08:40.650] [SPEAKER_06]: But basically, they're storing it all.
[08:40.890 --> 08:44.530] [SPEAKER_06]: They suck all this stuff down in the store, and they work on it at their leisure.
[08:44.790 --> 08:45.970] [SPEAKER_05]: What kind of...
[08:45.970 --> 08:51.910] [SPEAKER_05]: If you can give us an example, what kind of data might they be downloading and analyzing?
[08:51.910 --> 09:00.210] [SPEAKER_06]: It could be imagery, basically image files or live video from spy satellites.
[09:00.310 --> 09:05.450] [SPEAKER_06]: It could be signals intelligence satellites.
[09:05.650 --> 09:08.010] [SPEAKER_06]: There are satellites up there that do nothing but eavesdropping.
[09:08.770 --> 09:15.150] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they beam down their findings to the nation that has put those satellites up.
[09:15.150 --> 09:18.490] [SPEAKER_06]: So basically, we're watching... the U.S.
[09:18.590 --> 09:21.990] [SPEAKER_06]: government, NSA, is watching them watch us.
[09:22.450 --> 09:24.810] [SPEAKER_06]: And we try to gain intelligence from that.
[09:25.390 --> 09:30.290] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're also... the NSA is also watching us through our own satellites, correct?
[09:30.530 --> 09:31.270] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, how about that?
[09:31.730 --> 09:37.310] [SPEAKER_06]: The NSA, they're supposed to be doing only surveillance of foreign communications.
[09:37.310 --> 09:44.710] [SPEAKER_06]: But as we've learned in recent years, thanks to the Bush administration, NSA is targeting the U.S.
[09:45.030 --> 09:48.950] [SPEAKER_06]: population en masse with their surveillance capabilities.
[09:48.950 --> 09:50.790] [SPEAKER_06]: To what extent, we're not exactly sure.
[09:50.970 --> 09:55.710] [SPEAKER_06]: But I hear that next month, we're going to hear firsthand from a former NSA employee.
[09:55.830 --> 09:56.090] [SPEAKER_05]: What is it?
[09:56.190 --> 09:57.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody has to ruin surprises today?
[09:57.590 --> 09:59.150] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you know, I was getting to that, Bernie.
[09:59.190 --> 09:59.730] [SPEAKER_05]: I was getting to that.
[09:59.810 --> 10:00.710] [SPEAKER_05]: I was going to explain the fan.
[10:00.870 --> 10:01.950] [SPEAKER_05]: I was going to explain the whole thing.
[10:02.090 --> 10:03.330] [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, we're going to get to it.
[10:03.330 --> 10:09.030] [SPEAKER_05]: We're first going to tell the story, because there is more to just going down there and taking a few nice snapshots.
[10:10.230 --> 10:21.710] [SPEAKER_05]: We found out, and we kind of suspected this, that people who work for surveillance agencies don't like it when you surveil them, or even act a little bit curious.
[10:22.270 --> 10:25.890] [SPEAKER_05]: The fences, the barricades, that sort of got the message across.
[10:26.670 --> 10:27.910] [SPEAKER_05]: But there was also...
[10:27.910 --> 10:39.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And, Carl, I asked you to do this last night on the other radio show, but you took a picture of a sign that was on the outside of the perimeter, and it was a warning sign of all the things that you're not supposed to do.
[10:41.250 --> 10:50.590] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I think you did the right thing by taking a picture of it, because there's no way we could read that quickly, certainly not in a car, and even standing there for a good few minutes takes time to read it.
[10:50.670 --> 11:03.630] [SPEAKER_05]: So taking a picture is the best way to convey this, not only to ourselves, but to all the listeners out there who might be thinking of going down to Fort Meade, Maryland, which, by the way, is off State Route 295.
[11:03.730 --> 11:09.530] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's confusing, because that's near the Interstate 95, but 295 is actually Maryland Route 295.
[11:09.630 --> 11:15.250] [SPEAKER_05]: It's called the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, and it's midway down between Baltimore and Washington.
[11:15.250 --> 11:26.030] [SPEAKER_05]: You'll see an exit for NSA employees only, but then you'll see another exit for NSA, and that's where you can get off at Fort Meade and make sure that you don't do anything that this sign tells you not to do.
[11:26.670 --> 11:28.710] [SPEAKER_05]: So, do you have that sign handy?
[11:29.110 --> 11:29.630] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[11:30.090 --> 11:30.290] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[11:30.410 --> 11:31.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Why don't you read what's on it?
[11:32.390 --> 11:33.770] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I'll start.
[11:34.250 --> 11:36.350] [SPEAKER_10]: It says, warning, restricted area.
[11:36.610 --> 11:52.150] [SPEAKER_10]: This area has been declared a restricted area by authority of the Director and National Security Agency-slash-Chief, Central Security Service, pursuant to the provision of the Internal Security Act of 1950 in implementing executive orders and directives.
[11:52.830 --> 11:54.290] [SPEAKER_10]: Unauthorized entry is prohibited.
[11:54.630 --> 11:58.390] [SPEAKER_10]: All persons, property, and vehicles entering or exiting this area are liable to search.
[11:58.550 --> 12:00.910] [SPEAKER_10]: By entering this area, you consent to search.
[12:01.410 --> 12:04.170] [SPEAKER_10]: Unauthorized removal of classified defense material or U.S.
[12:04.430 --> 12:06.950] [SPEAKER_10]: governmental property is prohibited.
[12:07.770 --> 12:19.090] [SPEAKER_10]: Unauthorized photography, note-taking, making of drawings, maps, or other graphic representations are prohibited, unless specifically authorized by the Chief, Office of Security.
[12:19.090 --> 12:27.470] [SPEAKER_10]: Items in the categories listed below are prohibited within the restricted area and are subject to confiscation, and violators may be prosecuted.
[12:28.090 --> 12:44.590] [SPEAKER_10]: Firearms and ammunition, explosives and incendiaries, volatile or hazardous substances, photographic and imagery equipment, and media recording and sound equipment, and media electronic and computer equipment, and media transmitting and receiving equipment and attachments,
[12:45.010 --> 12:47.530] [SPEAKER_10]: contraband, or legal substances.
[12:48.210 --> 12:50.470] [SPEAKER_05]: All of this was on one sign.
[12:50.630 --> 12:54.230] [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't even that big a sign, but that was what was surrounding the perimeter.
[12:55.190 --> 12:57.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And so you grabbed a picture of that.
[12:57.670 --> 12:58.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Bernie, did anything on that surprise you?
[12:59.430 --> 13:03.370] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I think it's very comprehensive, and I like how at the end they say, and illegal substances.
[13:03.710 --> 13:04.650] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I like that too.
[13:04.690 --> 13:05.550] [SPEAKER_05]: They just sort of threw that in.
[13:05.570 --> 13:10.090] [SPEAKER_05]: By the way, don't do anything else illegal, but don't make any drawings or maps or anything like that.
[13:10.150 --> 13:14.990] [SPEAKER_05]: I imagine describing it is probably something they don't want you to do either, but yeah, we we did it anyway.
[13:15.850 --> 13:23.890] [SPEAKER_05]: But shortly after, the picture that Kyle took was actually at the museum site, which is not technically on their campus.
[13:24.010 --> 13:25.630] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't have to go through any kind of a gate for that.
[13:25.990 --> 13:27.150] [SPEAKER_05]: And there was nobody there.
[13:27.790 --> 13:31.950] [SPEAKER_05]: Just prior to that, we had been in a parking lot, which again was not on their campus.
[13:32.310 --> 13:35.410] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was trying to throw out a couple of coffee cups.
[13:35.410 --> 13:41.010] [SPEAKER_05]: So I basically walked the entire perimeter of the parking lot looking for a garbage can, which I did not find.
[13:41.110 --> 13:49.730] [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently that set off some kind of security alert because right after Kyle took the picture of the sign by the museum, we were driving away.
[13:49.730 --> 13:57.530] [SPEAKER_05]: And as we were driving away, we came across an SUV, an NSA SUV that waved for us to stop.
[13:57.670 --> 14:08.810] [SPEAKER_05]: And before we knew it, there were four NSA police cars around us asking us all kinds of questions such as, well, did you come all the way here just to come to this place?
[14:08.810 --> 14:09.850] [SPEAKER_05]: And where are you from?
[14:09.870 --> 14:10.770] [SPEAKER_05]: And how did you meet?
[14:10.970 --> 14:18.070] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, all kinds of other things that we, they kept us there for a good 25 minutes, but it was, am I describing it properly, Kyle?
[14:19.030 --> 14:38.930] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah, that was basically just what they wanted to talk to the Sweden and just sort of checking out the area and traveling around in the state in general, looking for just iconic symbols of, like, surveillance and that whole culture.
[14:39.170 --> 14:46.990] [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm pretty passionate about photography and, you know, what you're allowed to do and that kind of thing.
[14:46.990 --> 15:03.290] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think photographers should be able to photograph important institutions or, or, or, um, you know, government institutions that, that are, that are, that are, um, you know, even like this, very controversial or, or, or, or whatever.
[15:03.670 --> 15:04.730] [SPEAKER_10]: It's, it's all right.
[15:04.970 --> 15:09.450] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, you know, especially, you know, from a public, public roads and, and, and all that.
[15:09.610 --> 15:16.670] [SPEAKER_10]: And I don't want to get into that too much, but, uh, it was, it's really, uh, interesting to visit the facility and see it.
[15:16.790 --> 15:18.730] [SPEAKER_10]: It was very tough to get a good vantage point.
[15:19.090 --> 15:35.090] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but it was beautiful weather and, uh, I don't know, a, they wanted to, uh, make a report because I guess we had walked around the parking lot and I guess, I don't know, I was looking at, they have a, apparently like a little walking trail and, yeah,
[15:35.110 --> 15:37.170] [SPEAKER_10]: you were, you were looking for a garbage can.
[15:37.310 --> 15:37.450] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[15:37.610 --> 15:44.970] [SPEAKER_05]: Everything we did was, was off of their property or, or off of the, uh, the main campus property is still, uh, I guess the NSA museum is part of, uh, NSA.
[15:45.210 --> 15:47.710] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but the funny thing is, yes, you were taking pictures.
[15:47.850 --> 15:53.990] [SPEAKER_05]: We even stopped on the parkway at one point and, and, uh, made like we had a flat or something so that you could get a good, nice, steady shot of the place.
[15:54.310 --> 15:56.330] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, we didn't trespass.
[15:56.410 --> 15:57.710] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't go onto their property at all.
[15:57.910 --> 16:01.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And the funny thing is that when they did stop us, it wasn't for photography.
[16:01.750 --> 16:03.590] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think they even were aware that we were doing that.
[16:03.690 --> 16:06.070] [SPEAKER_05]: They just saw us walking in the parking lot and thought we were suspicious.
[16:06.270 --> 16:11.450] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I have to wonder for NSA police car, how many NSA police cars do you think there are in the first place?
[16:11.870 --> 16:17.710] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we had the attention, a good amount of the attention of the NSA, uh, focused on us at that moment.
[16:17.770 --> 16:20.170] [SPEAKER_05]: And I thought that was just, uh, you know, pretty, pretty cool.
[16:20.350 --> 16:21.010] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't understand.
[16:21.010 --> 16:21.750] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a museum.
[16:21.750 --> 16:23.070] [SPEAKER_04]: It was just closed at the time.
[16:23.190 --> 16:23.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that?
[16:23.670 --> 16:28.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we, we went on a Saturday and apparently the museum, well, actually we were there towards sunset as well.
[16:28.450 --> 16:31.730] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not sure when the museum is open and you know, they don't know either.
[16:31.850 --> 16:35.230] [SPEAKER_05]: Cause we asked the cops, we asked them two questions, where can we get good crabs in Baltimore?
[16:35.690 --> 16:38.070] [SPEAKER_05]: And when is the, when is the museum open?
[16:38.130 --> 16:39.950] [SPEAKER_05]: And they didn't really know the answer to either one of those things.
[16:40.110 --> 16:40.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[16:40.810 --> 16:42.730] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, the museum actually has an interesting history.
[16:42.890 --> 16:45.610] [SPEAKER_06]: I'll make it brief about, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago.
[16:45.830 --> 16:48.350] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, there, there was a, there was a hotel.
[16:48.610 --> 16:50.030] [SPEAKER_06]: It was a hotel, that museum.
[16:50.570 --> 16:54.930] [SPEAKER_06]: And NSA, the hotel was going out of business and NSA bought it.
[16:55.350 --> 16:59.430] [SPEAKER_06]: People used to stay at the hotel when they were visiting the NSA on official business.
[16:59.650 --> 17:06.130] [SPEAKER_06]: And, but then the place was going out of business and they bought it and they converted it to like a, uh, uh, members only museum.
[17:06.130 --> 17:20.490] [SPEAKER_06]: So only people, employees of the NSA could, uh, could, uh, could um, then I think it was the Washington post broke a story 15, 20 years ago about this secret museum that nobody's supposed to know about.
[17:20.650 --> 17:27.270] [SPEAKER_06]: And then after that, there were so many people coming to see it that the NSA finally had to take out the classified stuff and say, okay, it's open to the public.
[17:27.630 --> 17:28.770] [SPEAKER_06]: And now it's open.
[17:28.870 --> 17:34.130] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's only open during business hours, but I was there a couple of times and it's a, it's very impressive.
[17:34.370 --> 17:43.250] [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's, it's worth going to, you can actually sit on a Cray supercomputer and there's all this, there's, there's Enigma machines.
[17:43.710 --> 17:53.810] [SPEAKER_06]: There's really historical stuff going back to the encryption is a really important code breaking and making and breaking is a really important part of our nation's history and world history, frankly.
[17:54.030 --> 17:57.190] [SPEAKER_06]: And a lot of that is documented there and it's, it's worth checking out.
[17:57.310 --> 17:58.190] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I, I agree.
[17:58.430 --> 18:00.150] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's, uh, it's an interesting place to go.
[18:00.250 --> 18:03.430] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been there myself, uh, uh, many years ago, but I want more than that.
[18:03.530 --> 18:05.350] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't want just that little crumb off the table.
[18:05.490 --> 18:07.570] [SPEAKER_05]: I want to see what's going on in the complex.
[18:07.570 --> 18:08.490] [SPEAKER_05]: What are these people up to?
[18:08.570 --> 18:09.750] [SPEAKER_05]: What are they doing with my tax dollars?
[18:09.890 --> 18:11.430] [SPEAKER_05]: What's, what's the idea here?
[18:11.550 --> 18:12.510] [SPEAKER_05]: What's, what were they after?
[18:12.770 --> 18:18.830] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think people should be allowed to, uh, to get tours of the place and to have it explained to them because we're funding it after all.
[18:19.210 --> 18:22.110] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's, uh, it's, it's just, uh, it's, it's huge.
[18:22.230 --> 18:22.690] [SPEAKER_05]: It's scary.
[18:22.950 --> 18:26.090] [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, they really, uh, pay attention to what you're doing.
[18:26.250 --> 18:28.810] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think, uh, we should pay attention to what they're doing as well.
[18:28.910 --> 18:37.510] [SPEAKER_06]: Just so you know, Emmanuel, there are literally, this has been documented by authors such as James Banford, who's written several books about the National Security Agency.
[18:37.710 --> 18:39.090] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, quite an expert.
[18:39.370 --> 18:50.170] [SPEAKER_06]: There are several, there are dozens of acres, dozens of acres of computers underground there at Fort Meade.
[18:50.250 --> 18:57.610] [SPEAKER_06]: So what you see on top is literally tip of the iceberg that, you know, that great big black cube of a building that you saw.
[18:58.190 --> 18:59.370] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the tip of the iceberg.
[18:59.530 --> 19:02.430] [SPEAKER_06]: Underneath there are dozens of acres of computers.
[19:02.690 --> 19:03.970] [SPEAKER_06]: And they're not just like PCs.
[19:04.310 --> 19:11.010] [SPEAKER_06]: These are the most advanced supercomputers on the planet with optical processing and quantum process.
[19:11.170 --> 19:15.610] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, stuff that is science fiction to us is going on there.
[19:15.690 --> 19:28.230] [SPEAKER_05]: So all I'm saying is once a year, you have an open house of some sort, people wander around and see what's underneath and just sort of, uh, you know, be impressed by it all and go away thinking, wow, it's, it's cool to be an American, you know, that's that kind of thing.
[19:28.310 --> 19:41.570] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I can understand also the secrecy in that, well, if, if people think that certain encryption standards or whatnot are secure, but in fact, they've been broken by the agency, um, they don't want people to know that because that way they can keep eavesdropping on it.
[19:41.650 --> 19:49.410] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying that they have, or they haven't, but you know, I think oftentimes these research agencies are, are decades ahead of the research community.
[19:49.570 --> 19:51.710] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's just too many secrets in that place.
[19:51.710 --> 20:00.010] [SPEAKER_05]: And especially when, when all you're doing is walking around and looking at the buildings, uh, it raises such alarm that makes me very suspicious of, of, of them.
[20:00.610 --> 20:03.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, so, um, uh, you know, it's, um, yeah, yes, go ahead, Mike.
[20:04.070 --> 20:05.670] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you're right to be suspicious of them.
[20:05.790 --> 20:07.810] [SPEAKER_03]: Like all the evidence we have is that they're up to no good.
[20:08.070 --> 20:09.090] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it seems that way.
[20:09.290 --> 20:10.530] [SPEAKER_05]: It seems that way, but we can't prove it.
[20:11.150 --> 20:12.170] [SPEAKER_05]: We need to be able to do that.
[20:12.190 --> 20:12.790] [SPEAKER_06]: They do some good.
[20:13.150 --> 20:15.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, tell, tell us some of the good they do besides the museum.
[20:15.490 --> 20:21.570] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the United States has, uh, has missions, um, that it needs to keep secret.
[20:21.690 --> 20:25.510] [SPEAKER_06]: Not all nations do have some legitimate secrets to, to protect themselves.
[20:25.850 --> 20:29.590] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and the NSA doesn't just could break other people's, other countries codes.
[20:29.910 --> 20:32.570] [SPEAKER_06]: They also are the code making organization.
[20:33.330 --> 20:40.710] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and you know, they are in charge of, of basically, uh, information security for the United States.
[20:40.930 --> 20:49.070] [SPEAKER_06]: Like all military government agencies that have secure information, NSA is really involved with insuring the security of that information.
[20:49.390 --> 20:50.910] [SPEAKER_06]: And they also do cold code breaking.
[20:51.350 --> 21:07.790] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, frankly, I would rather a government agency, uh, and I'd rather our military, which is NSA is part of focus on, um, on breaking other people's codes and monitoring stuff and then, then like dropping bombs on them from, from man, you know, unarmed,
[21:07.970 --> 21:10.310] [SPEAKER_06]: unmanned drones and things like that.
[21:10.650 --> 21:17.550] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, you can gain a lot and you can, you can, you can prevent some violence and stuff by just eavesdropping and finding out what's going on.
[21:17.670 --> 21:19.650] [SPEAKER_06]: But of course it can be also used for other purposes.
[21:20.230 --> 21:22.110] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm saying that they're not all up to, no good.
[21:22.310 --> 21:27.370] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Bernie, how do you think they decide where to drop the, um, the unmanned drone bombs?
[21:27.570 --> 21:29.990] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm saying there, there, there's good they do and there's bad they do.
[21:30.270 --> 21:33.350] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I'm just saying it's not all, you can't paint it with a broad brush.
[21:34.070 --> 21:37.610] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, is, is, uh, is Stuxnet one of the things that NSA was involved with?
[21:38.350 --> 21:39.010] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh huh.
[21:39.470 --> 21:39.530] [SPEAKER_06]: Reportedly.
[21:39.530 --> 21:45.990] [SPEAKER_06]: Reportedly they, uh, they actually wrote this Stuxnet, um, uh, virus program, not a virus.
[21:46.030 --> 21:46.530] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's a virus.
[21:46.610 --> 21:48.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's a computer worm, but, uh...
[21:48.370 --> 21:48.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, the worm.
[21:48.570 --> 21:49.630] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was actually, it was a worm.
[21:49.770 --> 21:57.710] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, it was a worm that, that wasn't supposed to worm its way out of, uh, the Iranian nuclear, um, centrifuge facilities.
[21:57.710 --> 22:04.770] [SPEAKER_06]: But it did worm its way out through, uh, an employee's laptop in an Iranian employee's laptop, apparently, or at least reportedly.
[22:04.990 --> 22:05.750] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's kind of interesting.
[22:06.110 --> 22:11.530] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm kind of amused that it's become this big scandal now, that who leaked, who the administration leaked this information.
[22:11.810 --> 22:24.390] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's a really interesting story about what our, what NSA is doing to try to get information about what's going on in other places, and, and even using a computer worm to destroy centrifuge, nuclear centrifuges in Iran.
[22:24.610 --> 22:25.190] [SPEAKER_06]: It's fascinating.
[22:25.710 --> 22:34.510] [SPEAKER_05]: And there's also, uh, a word out that, uh, NSA is looking for, uh, uh, cyber security experts to help with that kind of thing over the next, uh, few years.
[22:34.590 --> 22:36.750] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's, uh, it's not as easy as they, they might have thought.
[22:36.850 --> 22:41.490] [SPEAKER_05]: There aren't enough cyber security experts steeped in the skills needed to wage cyber warfare.
[22:41.650 --> 22:43.350] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a big problem in the NSA.
[22:43.490 --> 22:47.350] [SPEAKER_05]: They, they need more of us to become warriors and, uh, and, and fight these battles.
[22:47.930 --> 22:58.210] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, so, um, uh, they say they're getting a little help from universities, uh, which are either unable or unwilling to teach students how to exploit network security vulnerabilities.
[22:58.990 --> 23:00.490] [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, interesting things ahead.
[23:00.490 --> 23:04.530] [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, this will be, uh, discussed, uh, in great detail at the, uh, hope conference, uh, coming up.
[23:04.690 --> 23:06.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and we have some more information on that in just a moment.
[23:06.830 --> 23:08.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, I just want to finish up with Kyle.
[23:08.630 --> 23:13.970] [SPEAKER_05]: Any, um, any concluding, uh, thoughts or remarks on, uh, on what happened to us while we were down there?
[23:15.070 --> 23:15.750] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah.
[23:15.750 --> 23:20.870] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, uh, it, it basically, uh, opened my eyes a little bit.
[23:21.070 --> 23:29.290] [SPEAKER_10]: I, I, um, uh, basically feel like, uh, I don't know.
[23:29.810 --> 23:30.650] [SPEAKER_10]: You got a chance.
[23:30.770 --> 23:37.430] [SPEAKER_10]: I got a chance to see it, but, uh, and I'm glad that, you know, we were able to tell the story a little bit.
[23:37.610 --> 23:40.410] [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, I don't know, I guess it's a routine.
[23:40.630 --> 23:43.790] [SPEAKER_10]: It was, it was kind of quiet there and, and spooky.
[23:44.310 --> 23:44.450] [SPEAKER_10]: Um.
[23:44.850 --> 23:45.570] [SPEAKER_05]: It was quiet.
[23:45.690 --> 23:47.670] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a little too quiet, uh, for my taste.
[23:48.070 --> 23:59.570] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, I believe in about a month when the Hope Conference is taking place, do you think we can say that there might be a photograph from the NSA appearing in the 2013 hacker calendar?
[24:01.650 --> 24:02.810] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I, I don't know.
[24:02.930 --> 24:03.870] [SPEAKER_10]: I, I can't say.
[24:04.010 --> 24:04.890] [SPEAKER_10]: I, I can't say.
[24:05.030 --> 24:08.090] [SPEAKER_10]: We, we got some interesting perspectives when we were out there.
[24:08.230 --> 24:10.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's still being analyzed by, by our experts.
[24:10.770 --> 24:11.130] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[24:11.150 --> 24:24.310] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Kyle, uh, I want to thank you for, uh, for your courage in, uh, going out, taking a picture of that sign, reading the sign on the air, and, uh, and, and just basically, um, uh, telling everybody what you saw, which I, I think is, is, is very important.
[24:25.190 --> 24:26.830] [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, we'll talk to you again next time.
[24:27.270 --> 24:27.550] [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.
[24:27.770 --> 24:28.110] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[24:28.650 --> 24:35.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, now, for our announcement of, uh, something related to, uh, the NSA, uh, this was just announced today.
[24:35.910 --> 24:38.790] [SPEAKER_05]: Our second keynote address at this year's Hope No.
[24:38.850 --> 24:45.870] [SPEAKER_05]: 9 conference is going to be delivered by former National Security Agency analyst turned whistleblower William Binney.
[24:46.690 --> 24:53.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, now, uh, Mike, you and I saw William Binney at the, uh, Whitney, uh, Museum about a month and a half ago, two months ago.
[24:53.410 --> 24:55.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, this guy is the real thing.
[24:55.790 --> 25:06.670] [SPEAKER_05]: He was inside that complex for 30 years, learned an awful lot about how it all worked and, uh, and, and just what it was that they, uh, they did in there was, was part of the whole thing.
[25:07.190 --> 25:21.850] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, after, after discovering, uh, post 9-11 that, uh, the attention of the NSA was being turned increasingly towards the American public, he decided to, uh, to become a whistleblower instead and, uh, and, and stop working for them.
[25:21.970 --> 25:32.690] [SPEAKER_05]: He says, he estimates that the NSA has put together over 20 trillion transactions as a phone calls, emails, and all kinds of other forms of data just from Americans.
[25:32.850 --> 25:41.270] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, it's, it's, some experts say it's possible that could include copies of almost all of emails sent and received from people who live in the United States.
[25:41.290 --> 25:44.990] [SPEAKER_05]: Encrypted or not, uh, copies could easily exist over there.
[25:45.350 --> 25:55.290] [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, we and Binney will be giving the, uh, the keynote address, one of the keynote addresses at the, um, Hope Conference this July, July 13, 14, and 15 at the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York.
[25:55.690 --> 25:59.710] [SPEAKER_05]: Other keynote address will be given by the Yes Men, and they're a whole lot of fun as well.
[25:59.770 --> 26:01.070] [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, they were in the news last week too.
[26:01.150 --> 26:02.290] [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully we'll get to that a little later.
[26:02.810 --> 26:07.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and, uh, more information on the entire thing, go to www.hope.net.
[26:08.470 --> 26:12.150] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, we hope to see you there next, next month at the, uh, at the conference.
[26:12.750 --> 26:14.710] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, Steve Rambam, you're here, you made it.
[26:14.890 --> 26:17.410] [SPEAKER_05]: Any, any problem, any problem getting, uh, to the station?
[26:17.770 --> 26:18.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Were they blocking you there?
[26:18.370 --> 26:19.550] [SPEAKER_05]: No problem getting here.
[26:19.570 --> 26:21.490] [SPEAKER_07]: You had my name misspelled downstairs.
[26:21.510 --> 26:22.730] [SPEAKER_07]: I did not spell your name.
[26:22.850 --> 26:23.530] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone else did that.
[26:23.710 --> 26:23.770] [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[26:24.170 --> 26:24.550] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[26:24.790 --> 26:25.470] [SPEAKER_05]: Passing the buck.
[26:25.590 --> 26:27.190] [SPEAKER_05]: I apologize for the heat.
[26:27.550 --> 26:33.010] [SPEAKER_05]: I apologize for the loud fan in the background, but, uh, unfortunately, uh, I don't know.
[26:33.070 --> 26:34.870] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't pay the air conditioning bill or something.
[26:35.190 --> 26:36.110] [SPEAKER_05]: Not sure what's going on.
[26:36.630 --> 26:39.770] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, so now... Sucks that has hit the AC system.
[26:39.770 --> 26:40.250] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[26:40.570 --> 26:40.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[26:40.850 --> 26:47.530] [SPEAKER_03]: Stuxnet, uh, you know... I don't believe our air conditioning system is sufficiently sophisticated to be affected by Stuxnet.
[26:47.530 --> 26:50.950] [SPEAKER_05]: It could be part of the Iranian infrastructure, though, and it might be affected in that way.
[26:51.150 --> 26:51.930] [SPEAKER_05]: That's entirely possible.
[26:52.110 --> 26:55.770] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, although we do have all this nuclear fuel here at WBAI, we need to keep an eye on it.
[26:55.910 --> 26:57.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Don't talk about that.
[26:57.430 --> 26:58.490] [SPEAKER_05]: We're not supposed to mention that.
[26:58.490 --> 27:00.190] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we're not supposed to talk about the nuclear.
[27:00.710 --> 27:05.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so anyway, Steve, um, now that you're here, uh, you're going to be at the conference, obviously.
[27:05.950 --> 27:07.430] [SPEAKER_05]: You're at every conference that we give.
[27:07.430 --> 27:14.330] [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, you, you always, uh... I am, and I'm bringing a, uh, a rather impressive lineup of, uh, colleagues with me.
[27:14.430 --> 27:14.670] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[27:14.830 --> 27:15.470] [SPEAKER_07]: You always do?
[27:15.570 --> 27:16.250] [SPEAKER_07]: You pack the room?
[27:16.430 --> 27:18.170] [SPEAKER_07]: Some, some knowingly, some unknowingly.
[27:18.390 --> 27:18.690] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[27:18.690 --> 27:19.950] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's what we're here to discuss.
[27:20.510 --> 27:21.370] [SPEAKER_05]: You want a victim.
[27:21.730 --> 27:22.390] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that, is that right?
[27:22.490 --> 27:23.350] [SPEAKER_05]: I do want a victim.
[27:23.630 --> 27:27.390] [SPEAKER_05]: Doesn't it sound as bad as it, I mean, no, it sounds worse than it is, what I'm trying to say.
[27:27.670 --> 27:30.170] [SPEAKER_07]: No, it, I think it sounds exactly the way it is.
[27:30.170 --> 27:30.830] [SPEAKER_07]: It's pretty bad.
[27:30.830 --> 27:48.310] [SPEAKER_07]: I want someone who will allow me to both conduct a, an extremely in-depth investigation of them, a cyber investigation, no following of them physically, although they will certainly be followed digitally.
[27:48.590 --> 27:56.610] [SPEAKER_07]: Every place their phone shows up, every call they make, every posting they make, every tweet, every photo.
[27:56.610 --> 28:07.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Being followed physically, I think, is better because you can turn around and see, you can catch the person, you can jump on them and, and, and, you know, you can put on a baseball cap and, and, and change your jacket and slip into the subway.
[28:07.910 --> 28:09.350] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but digitally, there's no escape.
[28:09.530 --> 28:10.450] [SPEAKER_07]: There is no escape.
[28:10.650 --> 28:11.750] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's, that's the point.
[28:11.970 --> 28:18.230] [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, I just came from purchasing a drone, which will be at the, uh, at the conference.
[28:18.510 --> 28:19.490] [SPEAKER_07]: I knew this day would come.
[28:19.670 --> 28:22.230] [SPEAKER_07]: There will be multiple, multiple drones at my event.
[28:22.830 --> 28:31.630] [SPEAKER_07]: Some surveillance drones, some attack drones, uh, which will shoot Nerf missiles at anyone who annoys me.
[28:31.710 --> 28:32.590] [SPEAKER_05]: You're not talking about humans.
[28:32.690 --> 28:34.830] [SPEAKER_05]: You're talking about actual, uh, uh, machines.
[28:35.130 --> 28:44.650] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm talking about actual flying drones that will be hovering throughout the, the very large room that I speak in during the Q&A session.
[28:44.830 --> 28:48.530] [SPEAKER_07]: One drone will, will zip over to the people asking questions.
[28:49.210 --> 28:56.610] [SPEAKER_07]: And the other one will be available if there's a, uh, an annoying person.
[28:57.150 --> 28:58.430] [SPEAKER_07]: This I have to see.
[28:58.590 --> 28:58.910] [SPEAKER_07]: You will.
[28:59.210 --> 29:00.170] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I hope so.
[29:00.190 --> 29:02.330] [SPEAKER_07]: You can be our, our test dummy, if you like.
[29:02.350 --> 29:03.450] [SPEAKER_05]: You're not, you're not kidding us.
[29:03.610 --> 29:04.050] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I'm not kidding.
[29:04.150 --> 29:04.910] [SPEAKER_07]: Actual drones.
[29:05.010 --> 29:05.510] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not kidding.
[29:05.630 --> 29:15.890] [SPEAKER_07]: My friend, uh, my friend, Yuri, who is, uh, chief of cybersecurity for, uh, chief of IT security for a very large New York hospital is going to be flying one drone.
[29:15.890 --> 29:24.110] [SPEAKER_07]: And I've got my buddy Bob, who's coming in from Michigan, who flies drones for real, is going to be flying the attack drone because the attack drone...
[29:24.110 --> 29:25.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Wait, how's it going to get inside the hotel room?
[29:26.870 --> 29:33.310] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they're, they're, the, the, the, uh, the surveillance drone is only, uh, 40 inches by 40 inches.
[29:33.310 --> 29:34.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so he's not actually going to be flying it.
[29:34.770 --> 29:34.930] [SPEAKER_05]: He'll be...
[29:34.930 --> 29:35.990] [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, it'll be flying.
[29:36.630 --> 29:37.330] [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely flying it.
[29:37.330 --> 29:38.710] [SPEAKER_05]: But he won't be inside it is what I'm saying.
[29:38.810 --> 29:38.930] [SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no.
[29:38.930 --> 29:40.710] [SPEAKER_05]: When you said he was flying it, I figured he was going to be up there.
[29:40.730 --> 29:43.730] [SPEAKER_07]: No, a drone, a drone is, these drones are unmanned drones.
[29:43.870 --> 29:44.450] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, unmanned drones.
[29:44.450 --> 29:45.790] [SPEAKER_07]: They are UAVs.
[29:45.910 --> 29:46.190] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[29:47.090 --> 29:47.470] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[29:47.670 --> 29:48.230] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[29:48.310 --> 29:51.310] [SPEAKER_07]: The attack drone is... we may have two.
[29:52.110 --> 29:56.630] [SPEAKER_07]: We're trying to see how good they are in swarms.
[29:56.770 --> 30:02.610] [SPEAKER_07]: We want to see if we can replicate real-world swarms inside an enclosed area.
[30:02.690 --> 30:12.670] [SPEAKER_07]: And if we can, I will have two drones hovering over me ready to pounce on anyone who asks a question I really don't want to answer.
[30:12.670 --> 30:18.190] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's great that we're using the same technology that we're trying to find out all this secret information about.
[30:18.410 --> 30:20.450] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're just sort of taking it over ourselves.
[30:20.570 --> 30:25.010] [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to have a couple of Air Force guys in Fort Oaxaca flying it from 3,000 miles away.
[30:25.110 --> 30:25.530] [SPEAKER_07]: Let's hope not.
[30:25.530 --> 30:27.010] [SPEAKER_07]: This will be on site.
[30:28.350 --> 30:33.070] [SPEAKER_08]: So you're thinking about having swarms of attack drones inside enclosed spaces.
[30:33.230 --> 30:34.710] [SPEAKER_08]: I can't help but think...
[30:34.710 --> 30:35.870] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if... is two a swarm?
[30:36.130 --> 30:37.150] [SPEAKER_07]: No, two's not a swarm.
[30:37.290 --> 30:38.110] [SPEAKER_07]: You need more.
[30:38.530 --> 30:42.190] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there's going to be two drones, one attack drone, one surveillance drone.
[30:42.190 --> 30:44.130] [SPEAKER_07]: There may be a second attack drone.
[30:44.290 --> 30:47.310] [SPEAKER_07]: I think at that point, three is a mini swarm.
[30:47.490 --> 30:50.910] [SPEAKER_05]: There may be a swarm because I think a lot of people are going to bring drones to this conference.
[30:51.090 --> 30:52.310] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how that's got started.
[30:52.310 --> 30:53.930] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, maybe we can shoot them down.
[30:54.150 --> 30:55.250] [SPEAKER_05]: That might happen too.
[30:55.790 --> 31:00.610] [SPEAKER_08]: We've already had some drones of various sorts at the conference before, but I don't know about this.
[31:00.610 --> 31:01.670] [SPEAKER_08]: You're talking about humans now, aren't you?
[31:01.750 --> 31:02.230] [SPEAKER_08]: I can tell.
[31:02.350 --> 31:02.730] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, well.
[31:02.990 --> 31:04.290] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't want to go to that.
[31:05.630 --> 31:07.330] [SPEAKER_03]: We have a talk on drones, I think.
[31:07.650 --> 31:08.470] [SPEAKER_07]: A talk on drones?
[31:08.650 --> 31:08.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I hope.
[31:08.990 --> 31:11.790] [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe we should have these drones come in and attend the talk on drones.
[31:11.790 --> 31:15.090] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe the drones just run the conference, you know, because I could sure use a break.
[31:15.410 --> 31:16.390] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it'd save us a lot of work.
[31:16.410 --> 31:34.830] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you remember that movie, I forget what it was, where at the beginning of the movie it starts out, there's a teacher and then the students start putting down digital tape recorders and at the end of the movie there's a room full of digital tape recorders and the camera pans up to the front and there's a big reel-to-reel giving the lecture.
[31:35.070 --> 31:35.450] [SPEAKER_05]: Rob T.
[31:35.530 --> 31:35.870] [SPEAKER_09]: Firefly.
[31:36.030 --> 31:36.330] [SPEAKER_07]: Rob T.
[31:36.390 --> 31:37.090] [SPEAKER_07]: Firefly, 40 points.
[31:37.090 --> 31:40.610] [SPEAKER_09]: That was a movie called Real Genius, which is a great hacker film for many reasons.
[31:40.690 --> 31:41.290] [SPEAKER_09]: That is correct.
[31:41.590 --> 31:42.510] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a great movie.
[31:42.550 --> 31:44.590] [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I think is eventually going to happen.
[31:44.810 --> 31:55.770] [SPEAKER_07]: I think hope, like 5-2K or whatever it is at some point, will be just cyborgs giving the talks and attending.
[31:55.770 --> 32:04.310] [SPEAKER_07]: I intend to, when I die, actually find some bender-like creature and put my brain in the robot.
[32:04.470 --> 32:06.430] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a concept.
[32:06.430 --> 32:09.810] [SPEAKER_07]: I want to keep attending, you know, hopes through the 23rd century.
[32:09.950 --> 32:13.290] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're going to continue at the Hotel Pennsylvania because that building will never be torn down.
[32:13.430 --> 32:16.170] [SPEAKER_05]: And even with cyborgs and drones...
[32:16.170 --> 32:18.350] [SPEAKER_07]: No, it'll probably be covered by rubble during the...
[32:18.350 --> 32:19.530] [SPEAKER_07]: During the first robot war.
[32:19.790 --> 32:21.650] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, second thermonuclear war, sure.
[32:21.910 --> 32:22.130] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[32:22.430 --> 32:22.830] [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Steve.
[32:23.390 --> 32:23.930] [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[32:23.930 --> 32:31.510] [SPEAKER_06]: Steve, getting back to your request for a victim, you're going to track this victim using all open-source methods.
[32:31.510 --> 32:32.050] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that right?
[32:32.310 --> 32:52.270] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we're going to do exactly what we did to Rick Dakin, but we are also going to expand to use the new technologies, tracking and amalgamating posts and determining where the person was at the time of the post and using that post to further de-anonymize the person's other posts.
[32:52.270 --> 33:03.290] [SPEAKER_07]: One of the things we're going to be covering quite a bit in my seminar this year is third-party de-anonymization of your activity on the net.
[33:03.470 --> 33:04.070] [SPEAKER_07]: How you...
[33:04.070 --> 33:11.530] [SPEAKER_07]: It is absolutely impossible or functionally impossible for you to be anonymous anymore on the net.
[33:13.150 --> 33:29.470] [SPEAKER_07]: And how the various online services, because they want to know where you are and what you're doing and what you like and who your friends are, are colonizing the web where even if you don't check into their particular infrastructure, and by that I mean Google or Facebook or what have you,
[33:29.870 --> 33:37.950] [SPEAKER_07]: their various like buttons and monitoring of cookies and things like that know where you are and what you're doing anyway, even if you're not logged into their system.
[33:37.950 --> 33:46.430] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, we have a backdoor way to utilize that tracking as, I might add, so does the US government.
[33:46.630 --> 33:53.950] [SPEAKER_07]: By the way, when you said it's 20 trillion transactions, let me tell you, you didn't read that carefully.
[33:54.190 --> 33:57.610] [SPEAKER_07]: It's 20 trillion trillion transactions.
[33:57.610 --> 34:02.470] [SPEAKER_07]: It is 20 septillion transactions to date.
[34:04.190 --> 34:06.550] [SPEAKER_05]: I was just quoting what he said, so...
[34:06.550 --> 34:08.410] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's written down wrong.
[34:09.130 --> 34:16.530] [SPEAKER_07]: Every phone call, every email, every cyber connect to a certain type of system.
[34:16.750 --> 34:30.670] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, right now, the US government is getting into, and this is going to be another part of my talk, something called the Internet of Things, which is your refrigerator has an Ethernet port.
[34:31.260 --> 34:37.930] [SPEAKER_07]: You can text your stove to have it start cooking a casserole before you come home.
[34:37.930 --> 35:09.750] [SPEAKER_07]: Even Apple is starting to incorporate with iOS 6 location alerts, where if you have purchased a 30-day prescription for, I don't know, I'll say Xanax, and it's the 29th day, and you are passing your drugstore, it will send you a text saying, your prescription is expiring,
[35:09.930 --> 35:11.290] [SPEAKER_07]: you better go in and renew it.
[35:11.450 --> 35:12.910] [SPEAKER_07]: You're not supposed to read text while you're driving.
[35:13.830 --> 35:15.630] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, what can I tell you?
[35:15.810 --> 35:16.750] [SPEAKER_07]: Especially on Xanax.
[35:17.370 --> 35:17.750] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[35:18.230 --> 35:19.610] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, right, especially on Xanax.
[35:19.650 --> 35:22.730] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, right now, I've got the drugstore calling me, reminding me constantly.
[35:22.790 --> 35:25.510] [SPEAKER_07]: At any rate, what I need is a privacy victim.
[35:26.650 --> 35:29.270] [SPEAKER_07]: Ideally, I want someone who actually has a life.
[35:30.730 --> 35:31.490] [SPEAKER_07]: Someone who...
[35:31.490 --> 35:31.910] [SPEAKER_05]: What do you mean by that?
[35:32.030 --> 35:32.650] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone who has a life.
[35:32.650 --> 35:38.590] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'd like them to actually be someone who doesn't sit in their basement six days a week.
[35:38.810 --> 35:41.570] [SPEAKER_07]: I'd like to be able to actually track their activities.
[35:41.910 --> 35:48.390] [SPEAKER_07]: I'd like to be able to track their purchases, when they go out with their friends, what they do, where they go.
[35:48.590 --> 36:00.190] [SPEAKER_07]: I would like to be able to show that it is possible today for an investigator, especially a governmental investigator that has a backdoor to Google.
[36:00.190 --> 36:04.330] [SPEAKER_07]: And we're going to be talking about Google backdoors, by the way, and Facebook backdoors.
[36:04.570 --> 36:09.450] [SPEAKER_07]: Google and Facebook are so deeply in bed with the...
[36:09.450 --> 36:11.950] [SPEAKER_07]: I had a member of the U.S.
[36:12.030 --> 36:19.030] [SPEAKER_07]: intelligence community tell me, and I thought this was the most fantastic quote ever, that Google is this administration's Halliburton.
[36:19.410 --> 36:29.370] [SPEAKER_07]: What Halliburton was for Bush 41 and 43, Google is to our Vulcan President Obama.
[36:30.190 --> 36:32.810] [SPEAKER_07]: We lost our net access, and I don't think it's coming back.
[36:32.810 --> 36:33.770] [SPEAKER_07]: Probably not an accident.
[36:35.050 --> 36:36.550] [SPEAKER_07]: Probably not an accident.
[36:36.910 --> 36:37.150] [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[36:37.470 --> 36:40.490] [SPEAKER_07]: Suddenly, we are no longer live streaming.
[36:40.550 --> 36:41.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Let me just ask one quick thing.
[36:42.210 --> 36:46.690] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't want someone, obviously, with outstanding warrants or anything like that, because you're going to find out about it.
[36:47.270 --> 36:48.630] [SPEAKER_07]: I am an investigator.
[36:48.630 --> 37:07.510] [SPEAKER_07]: I am very much ideologically different from the people in this room, and although I've certainly covered for a few people in this organization, but if I find out you have a warrant, you will go to jail.
[37:07.710 --> 37:07.930] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[37:07.930 --> 37:18.890] [SPEAKER_07]: Please don't call me if you have an outstanding warrant or I'm going to find child porn on your computer or anything like that.
[37:18.990 --> 37:21.050] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, don't be a knucklehead about this.
[37:21.250 --> 37:25.290] [SPEAKER_07]: Be a real person who stupidly believes you have nothing to hide.
[37:25.710 --> 37:25.910] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[37:26.130 --> 37:27.330] [SPEAKER_07]: There's plenty of people like that out there.
[37:27.410 --> 37:33.590] [SPEAKER_04]: So you're basically looking for a volunteer to just live their life as they were before and then be surprised at what you can find out about them.
[37:33.590 --> 37:35.670] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, I don't know how surprised they're going to be.
[37:35.670 --> 37:37.890] [SPEAKER_07]: The people that come to the HOPE Conference are pretty hip.
[37:38.070 --> 37:43.530] [SPEAKER_07]: I have to tell you, one reason why I love doing the HOPE Conference is because I can talk in shorthand.
[37:43.810 --> 37:46.830] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't have to explain every single little thing.
[37:47.190 --> 37:52.130] [SPEAKER_07]: When I talk about IPv6, nobody goes, huh, what's that?
[37:52.330 --> 37:54.950] [SPEAKER_07]: But even with that, your talks still go three hours.
[37:55.150 --> 37:57.630] [SPEAKER_07]: So imagine how long they would go if you had to explain everything.
[37:57.750 --> 37:58.930] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you don't have to imagine.
[37:58.930 --> 38:00.110] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a two-day seminar.
[38:00.110 --> 38:06.270] [SPEAKER_07]: I just gave a full-day seminar to the investigative reporter team at the Miami Herald.
[38:06.990 --> 38:24.930] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm giving a two-day course through the Society of Professional Investigators, which, by the way, if you are an investigator, I got to do one semi-promo shout-out here for probably the best investigative and security fraternal group in this area.
[38:24.930 --> 38:28.670] [SPEAKER_07]: There's a group called SPI, Society of Professional Investigators.
[38:28.870 --> 38:32.890] [SPEAKER_07]: Their website is spionline.info.
[38:33.010 --> 38:48.910] [SPEAKER_07]: If you are an investigator, a computer security tech, a security person, a law enforcement officer, a forensic specialist, any of the fields allied to law enforcement and investigations, this is probably the most remarkable group of people you've ever seen.
[38:49.030 --> 38:50.810] [SPEAKER_07]: And I urge you to join.
[38:50.810 --> 38:59.130] [SPEAKER_07]: I have just become the education chairman of that group, so I'm going to be setting up a 50-hour course.
[38:59.410 --> 39:03.170] [SPEAKER_07]: Not a straight 50 hours, but 50 hours over...
[39:03.170 --> 39:03.870] [SPEAKER_07]: You can do it.
[39:03.950 --> 39:04.690] [SPEAKER_07]: You can do 50 hours straight.
[39:04.690 --> 39:06.890] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I probably could at the next Hope.
[39:07.350 --> 39:12.810] [SPEAKER_07]: And in fact, let me tell you, SPI is going to authorize...
[39:12.810 --> 39:32.910] [SPEAKER_07]: I have found six talks, including two of the talks given by the EFF attorney, six talks at Hope, that we are authorizing for our BCIP, Board Certified Investigative Professional Program, that if you attend these talks, we will issue you CEs and we will give you credits towards the credentials.
[39:33.110 --> 39:48.790] [SPEAKER_07]: So if you're an investigator who either needs CEs or you want to participate in the BCIP program, contact me or contact one of the other members of the SPI board and we'll tell you what we are authorizing as far as Hope.
[39:48.890 --> 39:50.650] [SPEAKER_07]: We're not authorizing all the talks.
[39:50.650 --> 39:57.270] [SPEAKER_07]: We really don't want to give continuing education for some, you know, knucklehead teaching you how to do silly things.
[39:57.430 --> 40:08.130] [SPEAKER_07]: But Hope has a lot of seminars that are very much not knuckleheaded and we're impressed by them and we're going to issue CEs if you attend them.
[40:08.310 --> 40:11.310] [SPEAKER_07]: And how do people get a hold of you to do this?
[40:11.310 --> 40:11.990] [SPEAKER_07]: Me?
[40:13.030 --> 40:23.270] [SPEAKER_07]: I probably shouldn't do this, but our public contact point for my investigative agency is pallorium at pallorium.com.
[40:23.350 --> 40:28.610] [SPEAKER_07]: That's P-A-L-L-O-R-I-U-M at pallorium, same spelling dot com.
[40:28.770 --> 40:34.650] [SPEAKER_07]: My phone number is 212-969-0286.
[40:34.970 --> 40:37.150] [SPEAKER_07]: 212-969-0286.
[40:37.310 --> 40:40.270] [SPEAKER_07]: If you want to volunteer, contact me or contact...
[40:40.270 --> 40:41.430] [SPEAKER_07]: What's the Off The Hook address?
[40:41.910 --> 40:43.610] [SPEAKER_05]: O-T-H-at-2600.com.
[40:43.690 --> 40:48.930] [SPEAKER_07]: O-T-H-at-2600.com or call me or call Emmanuel.
[40:48.930 --> 40:50.290] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll give you his home phone number.
[40:50.550 --> 40:51.450] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, let's just move on.
[40:51.750 --> 40:51.950] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm kidding.
[40:52.770 --> 41:01.050] [SPEAKER_07]: But we really do want to volunteer and trust me, you will help make our seminar exponentially better.
[41:01.210 --> 41:04.890] [SPEAKER_07]: There's nothing like real-world examples of how these things work.
[41:05.030 --> 41:09.750] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you want more information on the Hope Conference, of course, go to the website www.hope.net.
[41:09.870 --> 41:11.950] [SPEAKER_05]: That's H-O-P-E, Hackers on Planet Earth.
[41:12.090 --> 41:12.190] [SPEAKER_05]: Rob.
[41:12.450 --> 41:20.330] [SPEAKER_09]: Now, to take it back for a moment, you very briefly mentioned Rick Dakin, but for somebody who may not know that whole story, can you give us the really short version of what that was all about?
[41:22.790 --> 41:23.810] [SPEAKER_07]: Short version, no.
[41:23.810 --> 41:25.310] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I can give you a brief version.
[41:25.890 --> 41:43.930] [SPEAKER_07]: Rick Dakin is a very impressive guy who probably would kill me if he bumped into me because we are actually still doing a book together and it's about 90% done and the remaining 10% has been sitting there for two years and I haven't finished it, so entirely my fault.
[41:44.270 --> 41:46.610] [SPEAKER_07]: Rick Dakin is a very well-known writer.
[41:46.790 --> 41:49.530] [SPEAKER_07]: He wrote Geek Mafia and a number of other books.
[41:49.530 --> 42:10.590] [SPEAKER_07]: He's a pretty remarkable guy and on this program, on Off The Hook one night, I put out a call for a victim and he volunteered and we did a remarkable, remarkable in-depth analysis of him and actually used it for a talk.
[42:10.750 --> 42:29.650] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, the talk was ever so slightly delayed because in 2006, the FBI, despite the fact that I'm an investigator and I routinely work with the federal government and with federal agencies, the FBI was rather annoyed that I found out that one of their chief informants,
[42:29.750 --> 42:33.970] [SPEAKER_07]: one of their high echelon informants, was essentially an escaped mental patient.
[42:34.770 --> 42:36.490] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's not an exaggeration.
[42:36.590 --> 42:38.090] [SPEAKER_07]: The story is even wilder than that.
[42:38.650 --> 42:51.090] [SPEAKER_07]: So, six agents in raid jackets and weapons and whatever stormed into the whole conference and took me out of there in handcuffs as I was on my way into the room to give my talk.
[42:51.270 --> 42:54.710] [SPEAKER_07]: And we all thought we were the ones in danger and instead they haul you off.
[42:54.830 --> 42:55.730] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the amazing thing.
[42:55.930 --> 43:04.910] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, mind you, the charges were dropped fairly instantly and the two federal prosecutors that authorized that were, as the saying goes, returned to the private sector.
[43:04.910 --> 43:09.110] [SPEAKER_07]: And I amazingly, still to this day, have no criminal record.
[43:11.770 --> 43:24.830] [SPEAKER_07]: But I had to wait until we reconvened a few months later at the Stevens Institute of Technology for HOPE 2600.1, I think it was called, or the last HOPE version 2.
[43:24.830 --> 43:26.770] [SPEAKER_07]: HOPE number 6, yeah, that last talk of HOPE number 6.
[43:26.770 --> 43:28.770] [SPEAKER_07]: It was 6.1 or whatever the heck it was.
[43:32.070 --> 43:34.070] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'll tell you what, it was a packed room.
[43:34.070 --> 43:36.730] [SPEAKER_07]: It was a major, major event.
[43:37.390 --> 43:43.490] [SPEAKER_07]: And which, by the way, the FBI was considering enough to attend and sit quietly.
[43:43.830 --> 43:44.830] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they always attend.
[43:45.050 --> 43:45.970] [SPEAKER_05]: They're always in there somewhere.
[43:46.270 --> 43:47.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes they're quiet, sometimes they're not.
[43:48.230 --> 43:50.970] [SPEAKER_03]: So the victim, it can be anywhere in the world, anywhere in the country?
[43:51.290 --> 43:52.190] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, no, no.
[43:52.390 --> 43:52.630] [SPEAKER_03]: Only in New York?
[43:53.310 --> 43:58.790] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, look, ideally, the following criteria should be met.
[43:59.150 --> 44:03.410] [SPEAKER_07]: Number one, it should be someone who actually has a life, goes out, does things.
[44:03.830 --> 44:12.370] [SPEAKER_07]: Second of all, it should be somebody who's going to, in advance, sign a ferocious, frightening release that we're going to send them.
[44:12.550 --> 44:13.870] [SPEAKER_07]: You're going to have to sign a release.
[44:14.350 --> 44:27.210] [SPEAKER_07]: Number three, what would be best would be if this is somebody who's actually going to attend HOPE, so they can be right there as I reveal our digital proctology exam?
[44:27.430 --> 44:29.750] [SPEAKER_05]: And please don't chicken out at the last minute, because that...
[44:29.750 --> 44:31.390] [SPEAKER_05]: That happened in 2004.
[44:31.550 --> 44:31.730] [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct.
[44:31.730 --> 44:32.330] [SPEAKER_07]: Ruins everything.
[44:32.470 --> 44:33.230] [SPEAKER_07]: Ruins the whole thing.
[44:33.230 --> 44:38.610] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we did an unbelievable review on a guy who's a journalist, who's a well-known journalist.
[44:38.610 --> 44:39.630] [SPEAKER_07]: I won't say his name.
[44:39.950 --> 44:43.590] [SPEAKER_07]: But the day before my talk, his attorney called me.
[44:44.290 --> 44:45.550] [SPEAKER_07]: I said, I have a release.
[44:45.650 --> 44:47.270] [SPEAKER_07]: He said, okay, we'll sue you anyway.
[44:47.870 --> 44:49.230] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and you know, what do you expect?
[44:49.230 --> 44:53.190] [SPEAKER_05]: If you're going to have Steve look into you, he's going to find out things, so don't be surprised by that.
[44:53.330 --> 44:56.950] [SPEAKER_05]: I guess also we should point out, if you're a kid, probably there's not enough on you yet.
[44:56.950 --> 44:59.570] [SPEAKER_05]: You might be an interesting person, but nobody knows yet, right?
[45:00.090 --> 45:05.770] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and by the way, if you're a kid, you may not have the legal ability to sign a release.
[45:06.010 --> 45:06.030] [SPEAKER_07]: True.
[45:07.310 --> 45:16.970] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I don't want to put up a little walking digital icon that shows school pizza Paula home, school pizza Paula home.
[45:17.130 --> 45:26.770] [SPEAKER_07]: I want to have somebody who goes out, who works, who goes to clubs, who does strange things, who, you know, we have a chance of actually embarrassing at some point.
[45:26.970 --> 45:27.250] [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[45:27.550 --> 45:27.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[45:27.810 --> 45:35.490] [SPEAKER_05]: And as far as actual private information, such as home phone numbers, social security numbers, is that something that this person can expect to get out to everybody?
[45:36.090 --> 45:43.250] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, no, but I will, I will at some point hand him a piece of paper and say, is this in fact your social security number?
[45:43.530 --> 45:45.510] [SPEAKER_07]: And he'll go, oh crap, yes.
[45:46.130 --> 45:47.450] [SPEAKER_07]: Is this your home phone number?
[45:47.530 --> 45:48.170] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, it is.
[45:48.470 --> 45:51.750] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, does your social security number trace to all of these things?
[45:51.810 --> 45:52.250] [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[45:52.410 --> 45:57.970] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, was your cell phone in the following 840 locations during the past three weeks?
[45:58.230 --> 45:59.330] [SPEAKER_07]: And that sort of thing.
[45:59.690 --> 46:00.090] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[46:00.370 --> 46:01.910] [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of it is going to be revealed.
[46:01.910 --> 46:08.430] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there are some things, things that will allow other people to do you harm or annoy you, we won't put out there.
[46:08.510 --> 46:13.370] [SPEAKER_07]: Like a social security number, we won't put out your full date of birth, we won't put your home phone number.
[46:13.510 --> 46:17.530] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's more than, uh, corporations will do, because they'll, they'll give all that information away.
[46:17.690 --> 46:18.930] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, that's an interesting thing.
[46:18.930 --> 46:22.130] [SPEAKER_07]: I came in late, so I don't know if you actually talked about the Spokio case.
[46:22.210 --> 46:23.110] [SPEAKER_05]: No, we haven't talked about that.
[46:23.190 --> 46:24.050] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't tell us what's going on.
[46:24.170 --> 46:33.870] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, for those of you who don't know what Spokio is, Spokio is, you know, they, they could more than they are, because they have the right idea.
[46:34.090 --> 46:52.410] [SPEAKER_07]: They go out and they suck down all of the, uh, various social media sites, Facebook and MySpace and Google Plus and, and, and Flickr and so on and so on and so on and so on and Foursquare and Instagram and every, everything out there.
[46:52.410 --> 47:01.390] [SPEAKER_07]: And they build a profile of everyone based on their social media activity and what's on their social media sites.
[47:01.710 --> 47:05.850] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, they needed to monetize that.
[47:06.430 --> 47:19.230] [SPEAKER_07]: And what they did was they started selling it to human resource companies and credit bureaus and background check people for pre-employment screening and credit checks and things like that.
[47:22.550 --> 47:36.790] [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, which is easily the most useless, worthless federal agency on the planet, no teeth whatsoever, no genuine understanding of most of the things that they police and regulate, uh, for once did the right thing.
[47:36.950 --> 47:45.670] [SPEAKER_07]: They jumped on Spokio and Spokio signed a consent decree that said, we don't admit we did anything wrong, but in the future, these particular things we won't do.
[47:45.790 --> 47:48.430] [SPEAKER_07]: And they paid an $800,000 fine.
[47:48.810 --> 47:51.210] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, a couple of things you need to know.
[47:51.210 --> 47:56.530] [SPEAKER_07]: First of all, $800,000 was basically cost of doing business for them.
[47:56.990 --> 47:57.790] [SPEAKER_07]: Meaningless.
[47:58.070 --> 48:02.830] [SPEAKER_07]: Second of all, the FTC consent decree was meaningless.
[48:03.310 --> 48:10.530] [SPEAKER_07]: Third of all, nothing that Spokio did initially was illegal.
[48:10.530 --> 48:32.850] [SPEAKER_07]: The fact of the matter is, and the most important thing, frankly, for anybody to know about the current state of affairs on the net is that Google and Facebook and MySpace and Flickr and Instagram, uh, and, and Foursquare and all of these various other companies are private companies.
[48:33.890 --> 48:39.950] [SPEAKER_07]: You do not have any right or any control over the information that they gather.
[48:40.150 --> 48:49.450] [SPEAKER_07]: If you are a moron enough to submit it, or your friends submit it on your behalf, or they go out and get it because essentially it's in the public domain, tough.
[48:49.450 --> 49:00.650] [SPEAKER_07]: Everything that Spokio did until the point where they sold that data for pre-employment screening purposes was totally kosher.
[49:00.870 --> 49:22.050] [SPEAKER_07]: Unfortunately for Spokio, there's something called the Federal Fair Credit Report Employment Act and the Federal Fair Credit Reporting Act, um, which says if you issue what's called an investigative consumer report that reports on somebody's credit worthiness or worthiness to be hired or something like that,
[49:22.250 --> 49:24.470] [SPEAKER_07]: that is federally regulated.
[49:24.750 --> 49:36.290] [SPEAKER_07]: So gathering the information was kosher, compiling it was kosher, selling it was kosher, but selling it for pre-employment and selling it for credit screening was not kosher.
[49:36.410 --> 49:43.050] [SPEAKER_07]: You have a duty, first of all, to let the consumer, meaning the person you're gathering the information on, know about it.
[49:43.170 --> 49:52.430] [SPEAKER_07]: You have a duty to, at least in theory, I mean the credit bureaus damn sure do it, but in theory you are supposed to make your best efforts to make sure it's accurate.
[49:53.090 --> 49:55.590] [SPEAKER_07]: Spokio's information sucks beyond belief.
[49:55.890 --> 50:07.430] [SPEAKER_07]: If you go to Spokio and you check on somebody's date of birth or activities or people in the household or whatever, 50 to 75 percent of it will be wrong.
[50:07.650 --> 50:12.850] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I'm saying all of this as somebody who owns PeopleFinder.net.
[50:13.090 --> 50:20.950] [SPEAKER_07]: One of my agency's subsidiaries is the largest privately held online investigative support service in the country.
[50:21.150 --> 50:22.770] [SPEAKER_07]: I own PeopleFinder.net.
[50:22.930 --> 50:36.010] [SPEAKER_07]: And I can tell you, I have, I don't care who you are, whoever is listening to this broadcast, I have your home address, I have where you work, I have your social security number, I have your date of birth, I have all your phone numbers, I have your criminal record,
[50:36.230 --> 50:42.870] [SPEAKER_07]: I have every time you appeared in court, I have your real property, your voter registration, your UCCs.
[50:42.970 --> 50:46.130] [SPEAKER_07]: For me to continue, I would need a second appearance on this show.
[50:46.990 --> 50:48.950] [SPEAKER_07]: All legal for two reasons.
[50:49.330 --> 50:52.570] [SPEAKER_07]: Number one, I gathered it and compiled it legally.
[50:52.970 --> 50:58.130] [SPEAKER_07]: Second of all, I don't sell it for pre-employment screening or for credit granting.
[50:58.310 --> 51:11.070] [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, every report that we issue says this report is not suitable and cannot have been requested for pre-employment purposes or for any FCRA-regulated purpose.
[51:11.370 --> 51:13.830] [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm okay, Spokio wasn't.
[51:14.010 --> 51:24.210] [SPEAKER_07]: The important thing to take away from the Spokio incident is A, you, me, and everybody are screwed because there is no regulation on any of this data.
[51:24.790 --> 51:31.230] [SPEAKER_07]: And B, you have no control whatsoever on how this data is used.
[51:31.430 --> 51:35.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, when you say things like that, it makes me feel kind of helpless.
[51:35.230 --> 51:36.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Like there's nothing that can be done.
[51:37.450 --> 51:40.250] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, should we just live our lives thinking that there's nothing we can do?
[51:40.250 --> 51:40.510] [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[51:40.750 --> 52:01.370] [SPEAKER_07]: And on the contrary, there needs to be at least among the people who think, which is why I love giving these seminars at any 2600 event because people come who are actually... I mean, my definition of a hacker and the real definition of a hacker is not what a lot of knuckleheads think,
[52:01.450 --> 52:04.850] [SPEAKER_07]: but it's people who are inquisitive, who want to take things apart.
[52:04.850 --> 52:06.490] [SPEAKER_07]: They want to take their life apart.
[52:06.590 --> 52:12.610] [SPEAKER_07]: They want to understand everything down to the root level, including life.
[52:12.890 --> 52:25.870] [SPEAKER_07]: And when I talk about these things at Hope, I suspect that the vast majority of the people who leave the privacy is dead seminars or privacy is decomposing at this point seminar, what are we calling it?
[52:25.950 --> 52:27.770] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, privacy of postmortem, right?
[52:27.870 --> 52:28.470] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, something like that.
[52:28.830 --> 52:29.130] [SPEAKER_07]: Whatever, whatever.
[52:29.350 --> 52:30.690] [SPEAKER_07]: A resurrection maybe in the future.
[52:30.810 --> 52:32.270] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, whatever, right, right.
[52:32.930 --> 52:35.830] [SPEAKER_07]: Three days later, Steven Jobs rose.
[52:36.030 --> 52:36.510] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[52:36.890 --> 52:45.910] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, you know, uh, uh, people who attend these seminars and learn what's being done to them take proactive steps.
[52:46.170 --> 52:52.650] [SPEAKER_07]: But, but the vast majority out there have never read a terms of service.
[52:52.730 --> 52:56.610] [SPEAKER_07]: They have never looked at the Facebook privacy policy, for example.
[52:56.870 --> 52:59.130] [SPEAKER_07]: And, and the average person is being manipulated.
[52:59.130 --> 53:03.370] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you post on Facebook, I just got my college diploma.
[53:03.650 --> 53:04.570] [SPEAKER_07]: I have a new girlfriend.
[53:04.890 --> 53:06.090] [SPEAKER_07]: I have a new pet.
[53:06.510 --> 53:09.770] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, you know, I'm in drug rehab, things like that.
[53:09.870 --> 53:14.830] [SPEAKER_07]: And all of your friends, because Zuckerberg is a brilliant little troll.
[53:15.650 --> 53:18.870] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, all of your, and, and he set it up to work this way.
[53:19.030 --> 53:20.930] [SPEAKER_07]: All of your friends go, oh, that's great.
[53:21.050 --> 53:21.470] [SPEAKER_07]: That's wonderful.
[53:21.650 --> 53:29.470] [SPEAKER_07]: And basically you get encouragement for having posted that positive reinforcement and you keep posting more and more and more and more.
[53:29.850 --> 53:34.390] [SPEAKER_07]: But that information is not just for the friends who are going at a boy, Emmanuel.
[53:34.950 --> 53:37.650] [SPEAKER_07]: It's for Zuckerberg and his ad sellers.
[53:38.330 --> 53:38.810] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[53:39.290 --> 53:41.790] [SPEAKER_05]: Steve Rambam, always a pleasure having you on the show.
[53:41.790 --> 53:51.990] [SPEAKER_05]: And we are looking forward so much to having you give, uh, your seminar at the hope conference coming up next month, www.hope.net for, yeah, all the information on that, uh, at the hope.net.
[53:52.230 --> 54:02.410] [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, um, again, if you want to be, uh, Steve's victim, uh, you can, uh, write to him and the address again, the pallorium addresses what pallorium at pallorium.com or, uh, what is it?
[54:02.550 --> 54:03.270] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, off the hook.
[54:03.390 --> 54:04.930] [SPEAKER_05]: oth@2600.com.
[54:04.970 --> 54:06.830] [SPEAKER_05]: If you want to write to the, uh, to the radio show.
[54:07.310 --> 54:11.890] [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, well, just thanks for keeping us, uh, on our toes and telling us what's going on out there.
[54:12.210 --> 54:13.010] [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, absolutely.
[54:13.230 --> 54:16.070] [SPEAKER_05]: We look forward to seeing you next month in, in, in person at the conference.
[54:16.070 --> 54:20.690] [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, also, uh, the NSA whistleblower, uh, William Binney will be giving one of the keynote addresses.
[54:21.090 --> 54:27.910] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, a lot of, uh, people from different walks of life and, uh, and, and different backgrounds, uh, coming together for a meeting of the minds.
[54:28.050 --> 54:29.750] [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to be really, uh, uh, amazing.
[54:29.910 --> 54:41.090] [SPEAKER_05]: Again, more information at www.hope.net and the yes men giving the other keynote address and about a hundred other talks and projects and, and fun activities and things like that.
[54:41.730 --> 54:45.950] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, now, uh, one, one final thing that we have to do.
[54:46.070 --> 54:53.750] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, tonight is, um, is, uh, say goodbye to, uh, Red Hecht, who I kicked off the show earlier today, but actually in seriousness, you were going to go anyway.
[54:54.030 --> 54:54.310] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that right?
[54:54.670 --> 54:54.670] I was.
[54:54.670 --> 54:55.850] [SPEAKER_04]: I was planning on going anyway.
[54:55.970 --> 54:56.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you remember your first show?
[54:57.310 --> 54:59.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, no, I remember it was a long time ago.
[54:59.150 --> 55:00.530] [SPEAKER_04]: It must be what, like seven years?
[55:00.530 --> 55:02.430] [SPEAKER_05]: You were like six years old, I think, when you came in.
[55:02.670 --> 55:03.490] [SPEAKER_05]: Your voice was really high.
[55:03.510 --> 55:05.130] [SPEAKER_04]: It would have been back in 2003, maybe.
[55:05.350 --> 55:05.630] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[55:05.830 --> 55:06.790] [SPEAKER_05]: It was, uh, it was something.
[55:06.890 --> 55:09.590] [SPEAKER_04]: It's been, it's been, it's been, it's been quite a ride.
[55:09.590 --> 55:09.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[55:09.830 --> 55:10.850] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm moving across the country.
[55:11.130 --> 55:11.450] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[55:11.610 --> 55:12.870] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was like a security clearance.
[55:14.130 --> 55:14.450] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[55:14.630 --> 55:15.970] [SPEAKER_05]: I can't hang out with people like us anymore.
[55:16.350 --> 55:19.790] [SPEAKER_05]: Or any, um, any, I mean, of course we'll have you back on, uh, during hope.
[55:19.890 --> 55:20.590] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure you'll be here.
[55:20.590 --> 55:21.050] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll be back for hope.
[55:21.210 --> 55:21.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[55:21.530 --> 55:31.610] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and other times and on the phone as, as occasion warrants, but anything that you'd like to, um, to say, uh, to sum it all up, uh, from your perspective, things to say to the audience or advice perhaps, or.
[55:32.050 --> 55:39.470] [SPEAKER_04]: It's been a great time and I hope you guys keep it up and, you know, keep, keep, keep doing what you're doing and let me, let me come by the studio when I'm in New York.
[55:39.610 --> 55:42.110] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you're welcome anytime as long as you can get past the barrier downstairs.
[55:42.530 --> 55:44.650] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll, I'll make sure to let you know in advance.
[55:45.250 --> 55:53.530] [SPEAKER_05]: All right, folks, uh, best of luck to Red Hack as, as he ventures out West and the wagon train to find out, uh, what kind of fortune awaits out there.
[55:53.690 --> 55:55.430] [SPEAKER_03]: I do hope he doesn't get color on the way.
[55:55.570 --> 55:56.950] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, whatever is fashionable.
[55:56.950 --> 55:57.830] [SPEAKER_03]: Or lose any oxen.
[55:59.830 --> 56:00.350] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[56:00.410 --> 56:11.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we'll, we'll certainly see you again in, uh, in the future as well as, uh, all the other amazing people that, uh, that build the various things that we do off the hook, 2600, uh, hackers on planet Earth, things like that.
[56:12.350 --> 56:14.910] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, hopefully next week we'll have heat in this place, uh, not heat.
[56:15.010 --> 56:15.850] [SPEAKER_05]: No, we have heat now.
[56:15.990 --> 56:22.570] [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully we'll have air conditioning in this place and that, that fan won't be on for the entire show, but we'll see, you know, it'll, it'll, it'll be interesting.
[56:22.870 --> 56:24.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Part of the whole WBAI experience.
[56:25.290 --> 56:28.550] [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, write to us again, oth@2600.com.
[56:28.710 --> 56:31.150] [SPEAKER_05]: Until next time, Emmanuel for Off The Hook, have a good night.