Off The Hook - 2012-07-25

[00:00.000 --> 00:01.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: ...members to make it successful.
[00:01.940 --> 00:04.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, are we going to sing Sister Sled?
[00:04.980 --> 00:06.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, no.
[00:06.360 --> 00:10.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to pitch, bring you great premiums, and talk hot topics.
[00:10.460 --> 00:11.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, come on down.
[00:11.460 --> 00:13.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: July 10th is when we start.
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[00:27.220 --> 00:28.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Ife Dancy.
[00:28.520 --> 00:29.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Esther Amar.
[00:29.860 --> 00:31.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: We approve this message.
[00:32.860 --> 00:38.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And hopefully you approve of this radio station, which is WBAI New York, 7 o'clock.
[00:38.260 --> 00:39.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Time once again for Off The Hook.
[02:21.650 --> 02:22.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:23.050 --> 02:23.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:23.850 --> 02:26.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:26.290 --> 02:27.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:27.970 --> 02:28.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[02:28.470 --> 02:28.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Rob T.
[02:29.170 --> 02:29.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Firefly.
[02:29.790 --> 02:30.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:30.370 --> 02:30.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kyle.
[02:31.070 --> 02:31.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[02:31.650 --> 02:32.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Jim.
[02:32.610 --> 02:32.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes!
[02:33.270 --> 02:33.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:34.170 --> 02:34.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome, Jim.
[02:34.930 --> 02:37.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And down in Philadelphia or somewhere in Pennsylvania, Bernie S.
[02:37.470 --> 02:38.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:39.070 --> 02:42.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, uh, anybody have anything, uh, this week to, uh, to talk about?
[02:43.150 --> 02:43.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anything at all?
[02:43.950 --> 02:44.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel.
[02:44.510 --> 02:45.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, go ahead, Bernie.
[02:45.150 --> 02:45.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds like you have something.
[02:45.910 --> 02:53.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: I like this kid from Manchester, who's 11 years old, who hacked his way onto a flight to, I think it was Paris.
[02:53.450 --> 02:56.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Was it Manchester United, Manchester City, or Manchester, New Hampshire?
[02:57.110 --> 02:59.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's a, it was, it was in the UK.
[02:59.430 --> 03:00.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's all I know.
[03:00.410 --> 03:00.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[03:00.790 --> 03:01.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: That narrows it down a bit.
[03:02.690 --> 03:07.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, yeah, yeah, this kid, he just, uh, he, he, he was, he was a, he was a plane freak.
[03:08.130 --> 03:11.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's always been fascinated by airplanes, according to the news reports.
[03:11.650 --> 03:18.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he, uh, desperately wanted to fly, and he, uh, he snuck away from his mom at the supermarket and, and, uh, made his way to the airport.
[03:18.750 --> 03:19.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's 11 years old.
[03:20.210 --> 03:22.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he got onto a plane.
[03:22.410 --> 03:27.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: He just sort of snuck on and, uh, you know, like, mingled in with, uh, with a family.
[03:27.970 --> 03:30.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's got to be all kinds of Homeland Security kind of stuff.
[03:30.630 --> 03:33.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it, uh, uh, I guess it was Heathrow.
[03:34.270 --> 03:36.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, but he still managed to get through.
[03:36.750 --> 03:38.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And without a boarding pass...
[03:38.490 --> 03:39.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not Homeland Security.
[03:39.550 --> 03:40.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not Homeland Security.
[03:40.490 --> 03:41.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's something else over there.
[03:41.430 --> 03:46.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: They have some equivalent nonsensical organization like that in the UK, I'm sure.
[03:46.570 --> 03:46.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[03:47.450 --> 03:49.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, when you're a kid, you can get away with things like that.
[03:49.550 --> 03:52.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can just walk past, and people assume that, you know, you're, you're nice and innocent.
[03:53.410 --> 03:57.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, but, uh, he was, he was just having a good old time on the plane, apparently.
[03:57.450 --> 04:05.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, they, the, the, the, the flight attendant didn't, didn't, uh, didn't catch him, like, doing a head count, like they're supposed to do.
[04:05.430 --> 04:06.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: There were all kinds of screw-ups.
[04:06.750 --> 04:10.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, until a few people on the plane started wondering, like, whose kid is this?
[04:10.790 --> 04:11.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because he's walking around the plane.
[04:12.670 --> 04:17.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, finally, uh, he, uh, the, the gig was up, but he had to, he got sent home.
[04:17.650 --> 04:18.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the kid's brilliant.
[04:19.210 --> 04:20.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: How far did he make it?
[04:21.130 --> 04:24.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: He, well, he, I guess he made it to the destination, but then they had to send him right back.
[04:24.950 --> 04:26.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, he, he got a seat, in other words.
[04:27.230 --> 04:27.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
[04:27.870 --> 04:36.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he was, it was, it was, like, the flight, it was, was well on, on, underway for quite a while before, uh, people started wondering who this kid belonged to.
[04:36.850 --> 04:41.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it, it, it wasn't so long ago that you could go all the way to the gate without a ticket.
[04:41.550 --> 04:45.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, of course, you have to have a ticket to get past, uh, the, uh, TSA people.
[04:46.470 --> 04:49.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but this kid, this kid clearly had to have thought this out.
[04:49.650 --> 04:52.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: This didn't happen by accident, and I got to hand it to him.
[04:52.530 --> 04:52.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be brilliant.
[04:54.050 --> 04:54.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[04:54.670 --> 04:56.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, that's, uh, certainly the hack of the week.
[04:57.010 --> 04:58.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyone have anything to top that?
[04:58.830 --> 04:59.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: I got bad news.
[05:00.150 --> 05:00.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, go ahead.
[05:00.870 --> 05:09.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or, I mean, not even news, but, uh, the NSA has admitted publicly that they have violated the Constitution, the Fourth Amendment, uh, to be exact.
[05:09.890 --> 05:12.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but they say, don't worry, we won't do it again.
[05:13.350 --> 05:15.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's gonna be no consequences for anyone.
[05:15.210 --> 05:17.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe you could give us some more details than just that.
[05:18.230 --> 05:21.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's really not a whole lot of details, uh, unfortunately.
[05:21.510 --> 05:25.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: The NSA just came on the television and said, by the way, violate the Constitution, we're not gonna do it again.
[05:25.290 --> 05:26.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, obviously there's more to this story.
[05:26.570 --> 05:31.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Wall Street Journal reports that the ruling was revealed Friday in a declassified document.
[05:31.810 --> 05:32.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[05:33.090 --> 05:36.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and it represents the first time that the government has acknowledged that U.S.
[05:36.950 --> 05:40.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: spy activities violated the Constitution since 2008.
[05:41.010 --> 05:43.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: So they went a good, you know, four years without admitting it.
[05:44.590 --> 05:47.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, they're spying on Americans is what they're doing.
[05:47.270 --> 05:51.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds like they're basically confirming what William Binney said, uh, to our attendees at Hope.
[05:51.570 --> 05:55.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: That, uh, they violated the Constitution and, uh, and now they're being called on it.
[05:55.570 --> 06:00.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they promise not to do it again and they say we should just believe them because, you know, they're honest people.
[06:00.010 --> 06:05.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you hear who, um, uh, DEFCON, the hacker conference in Vegas, has as their keynote speaker?
[06:05.470 --> 06:06.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: I did hear, yeah.
[06:06.450 --> 06:08.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: We, we had an NSA whistleblower.
[06:08.970 --> 06:10.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have the head of the NSA.
[06:11.470 --> 06:18.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't, I, I'm trying to understand what he's gonna say to hackers, you know, or, uh, are they gonna lock the doors or what?
[06:18.310 --> 06:19.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: What he's gonna say is come work for us.
[06:20.270 --> 06:20.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[06:20.670 --> 06:22.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, and people will take him up on it.
[06:23.050 --> 06:23.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: That worries me.
[06:23.970 --> 06:27.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, I hear the guy out, but, uh, keep in mind who he is.
[06:28.410 --> 06:31.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, he'll probably be photographing all your faces with, with his eyes.
[06:31.690 --> 06:36.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, okay, uh, we, uh, want to thank everybody for, uh, calling in last week and supporting us.
[06:37.130 --> 06:40.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we had the special, uh, limited edition, um, uh, DVDs.
[06:40.970 --> 06:41.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're all gone.
[06:41.770 --> 06:42.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not giving them away this week.
[06:42.810 --> 06:44.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is the last week of the fundraiser.
[06:44.470 --> 06:47.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we're doing something completely different this week as we threatened we do.
[06:48.210 --> 07:06.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, this week we're, um, we're, we're, we're, focusing on a special book, which we'll be announcing just a little bit, but also, uh, some history, some more history, history of off the hook, pretty much, um, for a pledge of $75 to 212-209-2950, you'll get the entire archive of off the hook.
[07:07.130 --> 07:15.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: 22 DVDs, 22 DVDs filled with MP3s, uh, broadcast quality of our radio show since it began back in 1988.
[07:15.750 --> 07:20.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, why you may ask, why would this be of interest to me?
[07:20.670 --> 07:21.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or to anyone?
[07:21.930 --> 07:26.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, throughout the years on Off The Hook, we've talked about a number of different subjects.
[07:26.650 --> 07:30.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we've covered all sorts of history, all sorts of technology that has developed.
[07:31.530 --> 07:36.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and, uh, and basically it's kind of like, uh, a time capsule of, uh, world events.
[07:36.930 --> 07:51.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And to demonstrate that, I'd like to go back to the year 1999, shortly before Y2K, if you might recall, uh, there was a big hubbub about that, but maybe you don't recall because it's 12 years later and we just move on to the next thing.
[07:51.850 --> 07:55.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we don't even remember what happened a year ago, let alone 12 years ago.
[07:55.370 --> 08:04.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, let's listen to a little snippet from 1999 when Off The Hook was preparing for Y2K, or perhaps the end of the world.
[08:04.970 --> 08:13.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we had in the studio, uh, at that time, Isaac, who I would get into frequent debates with about just about anything, and Y2K was certainly no exception.
[08:13.690 --> 08:23.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Remember, that phone number, 212-209-2950, pledge to $75, gets you the full DVD set, 22 DVDs, with every program we've done from 1988 to the end of 2011.
[08:23.750 --> 08:24.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's listen to 1999.
[08:45.480 --> 08:49.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And with, uh, under, what is it, eight weeks to go now until, uh...
[08:49.700 --> 08:50.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Forty-something days.
[08:50.720 --> 08:51.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: The year 2000?
[08:51.740 --> 08:54.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really coming up fast.
[08:54.700 --> 09:01.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sick of these morons on TV that say, uh, oh, this is the last world series of the century, you know, it's, this is not the end of the century.
[09:02.000 --> 09:02.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's not.
[09:02.560 --> 09:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Next year is the end of the century.
[09:04.360 --> 09:08.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's, that's, you know, the, the, the years did not begin with the year zero, they began with the year one.
[09:08.260 --> 09:08.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[09:08.520 --> 09:10.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: So 2000 is part of the 20th century.
[09:10.880 --> 09:13.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: So next world series will be the last world series of the century.
[09:13.380 --> 09:15.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I keep hearing, this is the last time we'll be doing this, this century.
[09:15.920 --> 09:17.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the last tree in Rockefeller Center this century.
[09:17.600 --> 09:20.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, unless you have plans not to live next century, I mean, next year rather.
[09:20.960 --> 09:22.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, well, we may not survive.
[09:22.120 --> 09:22.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: We may not survive.
[09:22.920 --> 09:26.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's the only way they can, they can possibly redeem themselves.
[09:26.800 --> 09:31.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I get much more upset with people claiming that, uh, January 1st, 2000 is the next millennium.
[09:31.780 --> 09:32.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's the same thing.
[09:32.560 --> 09:33.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the same stupidity.
[09:33.480 --> 09:34.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Foam at the mouth.
[09:34.360 --> 09:35.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's the exact same mistake they're making.
[09:36.140 --> 09:36.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It really is.
[09:37.000 --> 09:39.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because the millennium begins on January 1st, 2001.
[09:39.940 --> 09:41.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, that's, that's the situation.
[09:41.380 --> 09:44.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, you wanted, you wanted to announce that everything is okay and everything's going to be all right?
[09:45.100 --> 09:47.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, no, actually, President Clinton did that.
[09:47.420 --> 09:48.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, did I misunderstand?
[09:48.060 --> 09:48.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[09:48.680 --> 09:48.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[09:48.920 --> 09:52.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're not, you're not saying everything is... Oh, I'm not, I'm not saying everything's going to be okay by a long shot.
[09:52.940 --> 09:54.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: I, I think we're going to have some problems.
[09:55.180 --> 10:00.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, President Clinton did recently, uh, decide to tell us that it's all going to be all right.
[10:00.900 --> 10:03.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everything's going to be safe and there's not going to be any problems.
[10:03.800 --> 10:08.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, have you noticed, though, that there aren't as many stories about Y2K as there were, say, six months ago?
[10:09.020 --> 10:09.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[10:09.660 --> 10:10.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why is that?
[10:10.280 --> 10:11.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I have no idea.
[10:11.960 --> 10:12.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why do you think?
[10:12.740 --> 10:16.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think people are finally getting fed up with it and realizing that, hey, this is not going to be a big deal after all.
[10:16.700 --> 10:17.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I think.
[10:17.820 --> 10:20.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I hope... You think there's a darker conspiracy?
[10:20.100 --> 10:20.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope you're right.
[10:21.380 --> 10:23.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what's, what's your dark conspiracy theory here?
[10:23.640 --> 10:25.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, well, we won't go into my dark conspiracy theories.
[10:25.180 --> 10:25.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why not?
[10:25.920 --> 10:27.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, let's put it this way.
[10:27.280 --> 10:28.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're afraid to be proven wrong.
[10:28.320 --> 10:28.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why.
[10:28.640 --> 10:43.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: The President's own Y2K Advisory Council recently put out a paper talking about how 911 systems may not be fully operational, how a lot of these different, uh, infrastructure, little pieces of infrastructure may or may not be completely ready.
[10:43.880 --> 10:55.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, they're estimating, like, 50% of medium-sized businesses and, like, 20% of large... They have all these interesting little numbers, which you can go on, like, look at, uh, thomas.lock.gov.
[10:55.100 --> 10:58.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you have never been to thomas.lock.gov, go there.
[10:58.780 --> 11:03.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I demand it of you, uh, just for your own, you know, education and, uh, so on and so forth.
[11:04.020 --> 11:04.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: But anyway...
[11:04.600 --> 11:06.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there's all kinds of facts and figures up there.
[11:06.040 --> 11:16.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's all kinds of facts and figures up there, but it's somewhat interesting that the President basically has this report in his hands and ignores it and says, you know, everything's gonna be okay, everybody's gonna be safe and secure and we don't gotta worry.
[11:17.220 --> 11:18.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all solved.
[11:18.700 --> 11:21.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: But meanwhile, there are a lot of other things around the world that could potentially affect us.
[11:21.840 --> 11:22.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tell us what's wrong.
[11:22.880 --> 11:23.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: What's wrong?
[11:23.400 --> 11:24.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what's not working?
[11:25.020 --> 11:25.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[11:26.020 --> 11:27.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not after 2000 yet.
[11:28.100 --> 11:29.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you have no idea what's going to happen?
[11:30.380 --> 11:35.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have no idea what's gonna happen, and anybody who claims that they know what's going to happen is probably kidding themselves.
[11:36.120 --> 11:38.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I know people are going to panic and act crazy.
[11:38.800 --> 11:39.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, all right, yes.
[11:39.360 --> 11:46.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: In general, people are going to... there's gonna be some social unrest as there is, you know, all the time some kind of silly thing is impending doom.
[11:46.480 --> 11:51.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: There'll be occasional airliners plunging into the Atlantic because people want to get away from it all.
[11:51.260 --> 11:52.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I really don't think that's gonna happen.
[11:52.580 --> 11:58.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I mean, you know, you can, you can reasonably say there, you can outline certain problem spots.
[11:59.000 --> 12:06.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: For instance, people have been going nuts about micro, microcontrollers and things like that, you know, embedded, embedded systems.
[12:06.740 --> 12:08.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: What, what are your plans?
[12:08.500 --> 12:09.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: What are my plans?
[12:09.460 --> 12:11.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just for the record, so we know for the archives.
[12:11.880 --> 12:16.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I was originally planning a vacation in December in the great American Southwest.
[12:16.760 --> 12:17.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what happened?
[12:17.260 --> 12:17.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That fell through?
[12:17.860 --> 12:18.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it didn't fall through.
[12:18.700 --> 12:26.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I decided to move it back a bit, like maybe spend, you know, New Year's out in the desert, which may or may not be the greatest idea.
[12:26.060 --> 12:29.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I have a feeling my mother is going to guilt trip me into spending the holidays at home.
[12:30.360 --> 12:30.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know.
[12:30.920 --> 12:34.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'll be right there in Times Square where it's going to hit the fan.
[12:34.540 --> 12:35.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ha, ha.
[12:35.680 --> 12:37.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they say that's where terrorists will strike.
[12:37.420 --> 12:38.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, terrorists can strike anywhere.
[12:39.180 --> 12:41.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why would they pick the biggest place?
[12:41.060 --> 12:46.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why would they pick the capital of the world on the most important date when everybody in the world is watching?
[12:46.420 --> 12:51.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think Trenton, New Jersey would be a much better target because no one's going to be guarding anything there, you know.
[12:51.600 --> 12:53.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: The point is to incite terror.
[12:54.180 --> 12:56.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there's really no better time to incite terror.
[12:56.400 --> 12:59.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You see, the terror is incited by us talking about it like there's going to be terror.
[13:00.140 --> 13:06.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I'm watching these TV newscasts where they're saying someone could stand up on a roof and start shooting everybody.
[13:06.400 --> 13:10.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, it scares everybody to death, but, you know, that could happen at any time.
[13:10.380 --> 13:10.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[13:10.680 --> 13:12.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why wait until, you know, a particular date?
[13:12.980 --> 13:17.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because the professional terrorist is trying to make a point above and beyond killing people.
[13:17.720 --> 13:18.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're trying to get attention.
[13:19.420 --> 13:22.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you see, they're getting the attention just by making people worry about it.
[13:22.780 --> 13:29.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the more cameras that you have pointed at one thing at one time is the ultimate scenario that they could dream for.
[13:30.260 --> 13:36.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you have like 14 angles on one incident and it can be talked about for months and years on end, all of a sudden you gain credibility.
[13:36.660 --> 13:39.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: But look at your history of terrorism.
[13:39.600 --> 13:41.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many times has it happened that way?
[13:41.360 --> 13:43.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: It usually happens where you least expect it.
[13:43.420 --> 13:45.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't happen in the place where all the cameras are focused.
[13:46.340 --> 13:49.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: You think it's going to happen there, but it doesn't actually happen there.
[13:49.260 --> 13:53.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the paranoia that makes us feel the terror more.
[13:54.000 --> 13:54.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
[13:54.720 --> 13:55.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Sir, if you had something.
[13:55.840 --> 14:04.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you have to strike a compromise between the cameras that will give you news attention and the cameras that will have your face on the FBI wanted posters.
[14:04.920 --> 14:05.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that could be bad.
[14:05.160 --> 14:06.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that could generally be bad.
[14:06.640 --> 14:08.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: So you have to choose your cameras carefully.
[14:08.680 --> 14:24.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: But what I was going to say, because Isaac brought up the topic of microcontrollers and embedded systems and things like that, what scares me more than anything are all of the embedded ships that control little municipal functions that are handled by little towns that really just don't think much about Y2K.
[14:24.480 --> 14:24.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yes.
[14:25.320 --> 14:28.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: The water mains, the gas mains, electricity, things like that.
[14:28.720 --> 14:39.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It would be a lot of fun if, for instance, the Department of Water and Sewage here in the beautiful city of New York were to, oh, say, have their PDP-11s, which are controlling the sewage gates.
[14:39.960 --> 14:40.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have PDP-11s?
[14:40.960 --> 14:42.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have PDP-11s still controlling the sewage gates.
[14:42.900 --> 14:43.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, cool.
[14:43.180 --> 14:44.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You think they'll be throwing them out anytime soon?
[14:44.960 --> 14:49.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, after 2000, they may very well do that, after somebody, like, kicks them over.
[14:49.480 --> 14:50.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's going to be cool.
[14:50.700 --> 14:52.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, for instance, they're supposed to...
[14:53.680 --> 14:57.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: They open gates in relation to lunar cycles.
[14:58.780 --> 15:00.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: So think about that for a second.
[15:00.860 --> 15:09.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to release sewage into the river in regards to the tides, because if you release it while the tide is coming back in, you have this very nasty stench going up the East River and all that nasty mess.
[15:09.860 --> 15:12.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think there must be a clock involved in that, isn't there?
[15:12.020 --> 15:13.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think there would be.
[15:13.100 --> 15:13.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, what do you know?
[15:13.820 --> 15:28.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And imagine what would happen if, for instance, the computer were to suddenly think it was the year 1900, which I have no idea where that would be in the lunar cycle compared to the January 1st of 2000, and they were to open, say, the sewage gates at the wrong time.
[15:28.320 --> 15:31.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, so you get some raw sewage dumped out into land.
[15:31.480 --> 15:32.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about onto the streets?
[15:32.920 --> 15:34.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Onto the streets, but it only lasts a day.
[15:34.640 --> 15:35.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: We clean it up, and then we move on.
[15:35.940 --> 15:37.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not the end of civilization.
[15:37.480 --> 15:38.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a serious health list.
[15:38.220 --> 15:39.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just a bad day, you know?
[15:39.460 --> 15:40.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to be a bad...
[15:40.280 --> 15:41.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not saying it's going to be the end of civilization.
[15:42.000 --> 15:43.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think people are overreacting.
[15:43.280 --> 15:44.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's already happened once in California.
[15:44.900 --> 15:45.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: See, it's already happening.
[15:45.940 --> 15:46.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: We lived.
[15:47.060 --> 15:49.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, Patrice, what's going on in Europe as far as Y2K?
[15:49.380 --> 15:49.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Panic?
[15:49.840 --> 15:50.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, no, no.
[15:50.840 --> 15:53.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's quite funny, in fact.
[15:55.100 --> 15:57.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: For a long time, the Americans were talking about Y2K.
[15:57.980 --> 15:59.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody was talking about that in Europe.
[15:59.700 --> 16:04.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then suddenly it came up, and then there was some kind of panic.
[16:04.120 --> 16:08.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a lot of interest, and it became kind of hype.
[16:08.600 --> 16:13.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And all kind of Y2K experts sprang out of nothingness.
[16:13.740 --> 16:15.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, because they can make so much money.
[16:15.140 --> 16:18.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: They can make so much money scaring people and selling their products.
[16:18.360 --> 16:18.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that happens all the time.
[16:18.980 --> 16:20.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: I was one of them for some time.
[16:20.820 --> 16:21.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't make any money.
[16:22.800 --> 16:25.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, then the government...
[16:25.580 --> 16:27.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we're going to have to stop that right there.
[16:27.220 --> 16:31.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was an excerpt from Off The Hook back in 1999 as we were looking forward to Y2K.
[16:31.720 --> 16:32.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you guys think of all that?
[16:32.760 --> 16:33.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was interesting, wasn't it?
[16:35.120 --> 16:36.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's going to happen on Y2K?
[16:36.400 --> 16:36.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I want to know.
[16:37.020 --> 16:40.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, if you listen to the next episode, maybe you'll get more inklings.
[16:41.040 --> 16:42.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't know.
[16:42.080 --> 16:42.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you think of the predictions?
[16:42.820 --> 16:47.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, were any of us on track or completely off track, Rob?
[16:47.920 --> 16:50.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm kind of interested in those PDPs myself now.
[16:50.380 --> 16:51.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm wondering if they're still there.
[16:51.660 --> 16:52.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's the funniest thing.
[16:52.820 --> 16:54.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I actually remember listening to that very episode.
[16:54.740 --> 17:00.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: And where I worked back then, I used to put it on for public hearing during broadcast.
[17:00.320 --> 17:03.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so, like, yeah, it's a nice little flashback.
[17:03.500 --> 17:03.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: For public hearing.
[17:04.020 --> 17:04.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: That sounds kind of interesting.
[17:05.340 --> 17:06.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: You want to tell us where that was?
[17:06.920 --> 17:09.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was in a retail establishment in which I worked at the time.
[17:09.780 --> 17:12.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: So you basically forced all the customers to listen to Off The Hook.
[17:12.340 --> 17:12.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[17:13.320 --> 17:17.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: If there are any retail establishments right now that are playing Off The Hook, we'd like to know about them.
[17:17.200 --> 17:17.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give us a call.
[17:18.060 --> 17:19.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or actually, write to us.
[17:19.240 --> 17:20.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: oth@2600.com.
[17:21.160 --> 17:22.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And let us know where you heard us.
[17:23.000 --> 17:23.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, Kyle.
[17:23.720 --> 17:26.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of the predictions were pretty dead on.
[17:26.400 --> 17:28.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Specifically, though, one about, like, I don't know who was talking.
[17:28.860 --> 17:29.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was Serif.
[17:29.540 --> 17:34.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or somebody was talking about microcontrollers in, like, small municipalities who don't really understand what's going on.
[17:34.920 --> 17:36.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're just installing these things.
[17:36.480 --> 17:38.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: That actually tracks with some of the things that were spoken about at Hope.
[17:38.900 --> 17:42.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know one of the presentations was about Zigbee.
[17:43.220 --> 17:45.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think Travis Goodspeed and a couple other people spoke about it.
[17:46.060 --> 18:05.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Basically about the wireless systems that are used in, like, gas meters and different devices that sense and, you know, send signals out to, you know, companies controlling their customer, you know, their customer premise equipment, like, you know, a valve or the temperature sensor,
[18:06.040 --> 18:06.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: this kind of stuff.
[18:06.980 --> 18:08.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's definitely, like, a reality these days.
[18:08.940 --> 18:12.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we had some really interesting talks about that at Hope last week.
[18:12.800 --> 18:18.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's amazing to see the things that we talk about in the theoretical perspective back then.
[18:19.000 --> 18:23.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now it's something that we're faced with every single day.
[18:23.500 --> 18:28.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's really kind of cool to see it developing, to hear from our callers, too.
[18:28.600 --> 18:33.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because when you get this set, you also get all the phone calls that have come in over the years.
[18:33.240 --> 18:36.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And boy, have we had some great phone calls from many, many listeners.
[18:36.380 --> 18:40.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, when we started out, it was local because WBAI reached four states.
[18:40.680 --> 18:41.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: But still, that's all it reached.
[18:41.900 --> 18:42.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was a broadcast station.
[18:42.960 --> 18:47.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now, of course, with the Internet, we can talk globally all around the world.
[18:47.360 --> 18:50.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we get calls from all four corners of the planet.
[18:50.860 --> 18:55.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's interesting to see that change just by itself.
[18:55.420 --> 19:03.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, you'll see the entire world change politically, technologically, ideologically, all kinds of different ways.
[19:03.240 --> 19:05.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's a fascinating time capsule.
[19:05.560 --> 19:10.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And again, it's yours for a pledge of $75, 212-209-2950.
[19:10.100 --> 19:11.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get 22 DVDs.
[19:12.400 --> 19:13.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many?
[19:13.620 --> 19:13.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: 22.
[19:15.000 --> 19:15.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: How much space?
[19:15.880 --> 19:16.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: That takes up a lot of space.
[19:16.960 --> 19:17.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: It does.
[19:17.420 --> 19:17.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: It does.
[19:17.860 --> 19:22.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which is why you need some medium that can handle all that.
[19:23.060 --> 19:24.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you can copy them to your hard drive.
[19:24.740 --> 19:26.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can put them wherever you want, actually.
[19:27.000 --> 19:28.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: We encourage people to copy them.
[19:28.300 --> 19:29.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's no DRM on any of these.
[19:29.680 --> 19:32.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can listen to them anywhere in the world on any device that can play an MP3.
[19:34.340 --> 19:35.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll learn a lot.
[19:35.560 --> 19:41.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's 22 DVDs, though, filled with, let's say, about maybe 49, 50 weeks a year.
[19:41.780 --> 19:42.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're on the air.
[19:42.560 --> 19:45.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's close to 50 hours per DVD.
[19:45.620 --> 19:46.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Multiply that by 22.
[19:46.620 --> 19:47.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a lot of hours.
[19:47.920 --> 19:49.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's like 100 gigabytes, right?
[19:49.860 --> 19:52.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I haven't even tried to calculate that, but it's a lot.
[19:52.800 --> 19:53.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It really is.
[19:53.280 --> 19:54.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I did a rough multiplication in my head.
[19:54.660 --> 19:55.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot of gigabytes.
[19:55.860 --> 19:56.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: You might have to buy a new hard drive.
[19:56.920 --> 19:58.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's 128K.
[19:58.760 --> 19:59.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[19:59.360 --> 20:06.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: 44.1 megahertz, I believe, which basically is sound quality that you would get listening to the radio.
[20:06.280 --> 20:11.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not what we have online, because if you listen on the stream, it's not quite that high because of bandwidth concern.
[20:12.060 --> 20:16.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: But this is as high as it can get as far as what we offer.
[20:16.440 --> 20:18.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, 212-209-2950.
[20:18.840 --> 20:23.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I pledge $75 to get you the full set, 22 DVDs.
[20:23.280 --> 20:29.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we can't tell how many people are calling in because the machine is broken that shows us how many calls there are.
[20:29.940 --> 20:31.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's sad because we used to have...
[20:32.160 --> 20:36.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we have a camera now, but we used to have more of an analog-type system that just had flashing lights.
[20:37.320 --> 20:38.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that worked all the time.
[20:38.540 --> 20:44.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then we moved on to something on the Internet or on the computer that showed us more intelligently.
[20:44.820 --> 20:46.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, that doesn't work most of the time.
[20:46.840 --> 20:49.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It reminds me of so many things that we talk about over the years.
[20:49.880 --> 20:58.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Technology that, you know, implemented badly, doesn't work nearly as well as the old-fashioned non-technological means of doing things.
[20:58.700 --> 21:00.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: We still have the blinky thing.
[21:00.160 --> 21:01.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: It just isn't hooked up.
[21:01.080 --> 21:02.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not hooked up, so it's useless.
[21:02.580 --> 21:03.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just a piece of plastic.
[21:03.940 --> 21:05.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't have any lights lighting up.
[21:05.740 --> 21:07.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we could have all the lights lit up for all we know.
[21:08.020 --> 21:08.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't know.
[21:08.600 --> 21:09.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's no way to really tell.
[21:09.780 --> 21:13.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unless somebody knows how to fix the machine in here, we're going to be flying blind.
[21:14.600 --> 21:16.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[21:16.920 --> 21:19.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie, any thoughts on the Y2K debacle?
[21:19.540 --> 21:20.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was...
[21:20.920 --> 21:28.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought everything was so exaggerated and off the mark that it was amusing to...
[21:28.260 --> 21:28.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was so...
[21:28.840 --> 21:33.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was very anticlimactic when Y2K finally arrived.
[21:33.520 --> 21:36.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And none of the predictions seemed to really come true.
[21:36.840 --> 21:39.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'm the only person I know that experienced anything.
[21:39.860 --> 21:44.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: I made a rather sizable bank deposit the day before, and the bank lost it.
[21:44.980 --> 21:55.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I investigated and tracked it down to a failed multiplexer, which did have a Y2K problem in transferring the funds from their branch to where it was supposed to go.
[21:55.980 --> 22:04.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they sent me a giant fruit basket to the bank after I called the newspaper and said, Hey, this is what I found out happened as a Y2K problem.
[22:04.300 --> 22:08.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I've heard of very few, if any, real Y2K problems.
[22:09.040 --> 22:13.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think more groundbreaking than any Y2K incident.
[22:13.940 --> 22:16.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: You got a bank to send you a basket.
[22:16.660 --> 22:17.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even ask them to.
[22:18.140 --> 22:19.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I called them.
[22:19.920 --> 22:21.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: I verified the problem and the story.
[22:22.100 --> 22:26.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I called the newspaper because all the newspapers were, like, desperate for any real Y2K story.
[22:26.540 --> 22:27.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I told them what happened.
[22:27.500 --> 22:28.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: They called the bank.
[22:28.400 --> 22:29.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: They verified it.
[22:29.180 --> 22:32.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: The bank was horrified that it ended up being published, that they screwed up.
[22:33.060 --> 22:36.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: The name of the bank was Commerce Bank, but they've since sold off to TD Bank, I think.
[22:37.280 --> 22:41.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And at my workplace, like, this giant $100 fruit basket showed up.
[22:41.400 --> 22:46.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I gave it to all my co-workers and we enjoyed lots of delicious fresh fruit.
[22:47.200 --> 22:48.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was fun.
[22:48.500 --> 22:52.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's a great Y2K memory from the past.
[22:52.980 --> 22:55.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think you ever related it before on the radio, but...
[22:55.520 --> 22:56.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think I might have.
[22:56.840 --> 22:57.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[22:57.080 --> 23:04.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, then, you know, it's a challenge to people that get this package to find Bernie telling this story in the past and to see how many times we tell the same stories.
[23:04.720 --> 23:06.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe we change the stories over the years.
[23:06.520 --> 23:09.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, things do progress and get more and more exaggerated.
[23:09.860 --> 23:12.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe when he told it originally, it was a box of chocolates.
[23:12.380 --> 23:12.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, exactly.
[23:12.600 --> 23:13.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's changed into a basket of fruit.
[23:14.140 --> 23:16.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can find out if you pledge and get this DVD set.
[23:16.620 --> 23:18.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe it was a firm handshake and a sincere thank you.
[23:18.500 --> 23:20.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But then it sort of evolved over the year.
[23:20.940 --> 23:21.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And next year, who knows?
[23:21.960 --> 23:23.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: It'll be a brand new car that he will have gotten.
[23:24.580 --> 23:28.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you could help us pretty much psychologically analyze ourselves.
[23:28.140 --> 23:30.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe we have conditions that can be treated with your help.
[23:30.700 --> 23:35.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: But only if you listen to 22 years of Off The Hook.
[23:35.360 --> 23:42.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's more than 22 years, actually, because the first three years, I believe, are on the first DVD because we didn't have that many shows back then.
[23:42.520 --> 23:45.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's from 1988 until the end of 2011.
[23:45.400 --> 23:45.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, Rob.
[23:46.120 --> 23:48.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I'm sorry.
[23:48.720 --> 24:00.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yes, if you call 212-209-2950, you can be the recipient of over 22 years of Off The Hook history, of broadcast history, on hard media, non-volatile.
[24:00.500 --> 24:04.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can put this DVD in in 100 years, and most likely you'll still be able to listen to this.
[24:04.640 --> 24:06.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's more like 24 years because we started in 88.
[24:07.000 --> 24:09.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah, it's something like that.
[24:09.760 --> 24:10.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll learn math.
[24:10.480 --> 24:12.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll learn all kinds of things by listening to the radio show.
[24:12.980 --> 24:17.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, Kyle, you're over here now playing with the computer, and you're not getting anywhere on it, are you?
[24:17.700 --> 24:19.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's still having connection problems.
[24:19.700 --> 24:21.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not connected to the Internet at all, is it?
[24:21.440 --> 24:22.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it faked me out.
[24:23.040 --> 24:23.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: It said it was.
[24:23.640 --> 24:24.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: It said something right there.
[24:24.520 --> 24:26.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It says you knew something.
[24:26.500 --> 24:29.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: New callback for group fun drive has been received.
[24:29.180 --> 24:29.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that sounds good.
[24:29.760 --> 24:30.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what that means.
[24:31.080 --> 24:33.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it keeps thinking it's back on, and then it's like disconnected.
[24:34.060 --> 24:38.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll play with it, but I don't think there's any hope for this one, this show.
[24:38.780 --> 24:39.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, apparently not.
[24:39.820 --> 24:42.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, you know, we keep running into issues with technology.
[24:42.120 --> 24:51.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to dwell on this, but we just had a really funny incident today, in fact, involving our favorite bit of technology, the smart car, which we're trying to get up to Canada.
[24:51.380 --> 24:58.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're trying to get this car up to Canada to get it serviced because it's got some sort of gear issue where it lurches all the time or just feels really, really rough.
[24:58.560 --> 25:00.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's an electric clutch.
[25:00.540 --> 25:13.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: The clutch is like a solenoid, and apparently it's out of adjustment, and you need the Canadian dealer to have it relearn the correct set distance so it engages properly because right now it's not engaging very gracefully.
[25:14.680 --> 25:21.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, it has to be done by a dealer because anybody else doing it would break the licensing agreement for the vehicle computer.
[25:22.180 --> 25:23.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so that's known.
[25:23.680 --> 25:25.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: We finally figured out why that's...
[25:25.060 --> 25:27.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even the same car manufacturer is not allowed to do this.
[25:27.740 --> 25:30.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to go to Canada and get their particular computer codes.
[25:31.280 --> 25:35.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we have to somehow hobble the thing up there, even though every gear shift sounds...
[25:35.500 --> 25:37.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: It feels like someone's hitting you from behind.
[25:38.040 --> 25:39.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really violent.
[25:39.300 --> 25:47.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it got a little bit more complicated because I noticed this a couple of weeks ago when I turned the car on, immediately two little dots showed up indicating temperature.
[25:47.620 --> 25:48.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, explain what the dots are.
[25:48.620 --> 25:49.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're not...
[25:49.000 --> 25:51.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like a typical temperature gauge where it's a needle.
[25:52.160 --> 25:52.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's five dots total.
[25:53.060 --> 25:53.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's five dots.
[25:53.520 --> 25:54.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's supposed to be three lit.
[25:54.940 --> 25:55.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's normal.
[25:56.080 --> 25:57.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Four is getting warm.
[25:57.380 --> 25:58.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Five is overheating.
[25:58.320 --> 25:59.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the thing starts off at two.
[25:59.820 --> 26:02.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right away, before I even turn the car on, it's at two.
[26:02.940 --> 26:05.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, very quickly, it gets to four and then five.
[26:05.420 --> 26:09.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then 15 seconds after it gets to five, it does an auto shutdown.
[26:09.020 --> 26:11.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everything flashes and there's beeping and things like that.
[26:11.320 --> 26:12.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it just stops.
[26:12.240 --> 26:12.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Dead stop.
[26:13.140 --> 26:15.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thing is, the car isn't really overheating.
[26:15.100 --> 26:16.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It just thinks it's overheating.
[26:16.580 --> 26:18.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: The computer is saying, I'm overheating.
[26:18.300 --> 26:20.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is no way to bypass this computer.
[26:20.600 --> 26:28.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to basically go maybe a couple of miles, shut down, wait for it to cool down, even though it's not overheated, and try again.
[26:28.320 --> 26:29.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's going to be very, very hard to get to Canada.
[26:29.900 --> 26:35.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: What we're trying to do now is find a way to fool it into thinking that it's not overheating because it really isn't overheating.
[26:35.360 --> 26:38.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is what technology can do to you if you let it.
[26:39.080 --> 26:47.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what we've been trying to teach people over the years is that technology can be a good thing or it can be a really stupid thing if implemented stupidly.
[26:47.540 --> 26:50.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have you tried asking your car to open the pod bay doors?
[26:51.260 --> 26:56.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I would not want my car to be responsible for any human lives, really.
[26:57.140 --> 26:58.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would not want it to be making those kinds of decisions.
[26:59.120 --> 27:05.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Cars generally are responsible for human lives if you drive them at a high rate of speed in an area with people.
[27:05.780 --> 27:07.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: People behind them are the ones responsible.
[27:08.140 --> 27:10.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: The cars simply do what the people tell them to do.
[27:10.620 --> 27:14.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just spent a whole five minutes telling me that your car didn't do that.
[27:14.660 --> 27:17.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the car now is being told by a computer what to do.
[27:17.780 --> 27:18.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: The computer...
[27:18.360 --> 27:20.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the car itself is just following orders.
[27:21.000 --> 27:23.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's bad programming.
[27:23.300 --> 27:24.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Programming by a human.
[27:24.820 --> 27:25.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[27:25.420 --> 27:26.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not blaming the computer.
[27:26.540 --> 27:28.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't want computers to take offense.
[27:28.600 --> 27:30.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want programmers to take offense because I know they will.
[27:32.020 --> 27:35.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But humans tend to screw things up quite a bit.
[27:35.120 --> 27:36.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in this particular case...
[27:36.440 --> 27:37.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is happening to cars everywhere.
[27:38.140 --> 27:39.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we can go on for hours and hours about this.
[27:39.980 --> 27:41.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, we had a couple of talks about this at Hope.
[27:43.160 --> 27:47.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It basically winds up restricting you in ways that you've never been restricted before.
[27:47.960 --> 27:54.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it ties into a lot of the other things we've talked about with regards to copyright protection and DRM and things like that.
[27:54.900 --> 28:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: When you have all these restrictions and ways that you artificially control how people can use technology, there are all sorts of side effects.
[28:03.800 --> 28:05.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we see that every day.
[28:06.120 --> 28:08.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kyle, you did not succeed in fixing the computer here, did you?
[28:08.280 --> 28:12.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, but I figured out that the actual machine is...
[28:12.940 --> 28:21.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's Internet connection and it's plugged in through that IP handset, the control room phone that's connected to the rest of the phones.
[28:21.880 --> 28:23.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Does that do us any good, that knowledge?
[28:23.640 --> 28:26.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, maybe that phone is somehow blocking...
[28:26.680 --> 28:28.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a red light blinking on that phone.
[28:28.400 --> 28:34.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the phone is blocking the rest of the connection to the computer.
[28:34.180 --> 28:39.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I traced the Ethernet from that machine to that handset.
[28:39.360 --> 28:43.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so that handset has a line going in and then it has a line that says PC.
[28:43.740 --> 28:45.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you try reversing the polarity with a tachyon burst?
[28:47.160 --> 28:47.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: No?
[28:48.140 --> 28:49.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the first thing you should have tried.
[28:50.320 --> 28:50.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[28:50.720 --> 28:52.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we don't really have time for this.
[28:53.140 --> 28:54.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's hope calls are coming in.
[28:54.420 --> 28:55.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[28:56.860 --> 28:59.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: 24 years of off the hook for a pledge of $75.
[28:59.160 --> 29:00.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But now, we have something else.
[29:01.040 --> 29:03.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have something else to add to all this.
[29:03.520 --> 29:08.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because we've got, here in the studio, a hardcover book.
[29:08.880 --> 29:10.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Brand new hardcover book.
[29:10.640 --> 29:14.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this hardcover book comes from someone that we've had on the program before.
[29:15.160 --> 29:20.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in fact, we've talked about this book as it was being developed over the years.
[29:21.540 --> 29:24.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's called Whizzywig, Portrait of a Serial Hacker.
[29:25.260 --> 29:29.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the author of Whizzywig, Ed Piskard, joins us on the telephone.
[29:29.520 --> 29:30.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ed, are you with us?
[29:30.900 --> 29:31.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[29:31.480 --> 29:32.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[29:32.480 --> 29:33.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, how you doing?
[29:33.860 --> 29:34.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Rob.
[29:34.940 --> 29:35.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[29:36.480 --> 29:38.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you going to get all our names or...
[29:39.140 --> 29:39.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[29:39.700 --> 29:40.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Am I coming through clear?
[29:40.820 --> 29:43.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because I'm getting a weird robotic kind of...
[29:43.440 --> 29:45.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we sound kind of robotic usually.
[29:45.660 --> 29:47.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you sound a little low.
[29:47.720 --> 29:48.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, hey, check it out.
[29:48.980 --> 29:50.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: That light's flashing over there.
[29:50.940 --> 29:52.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: On the old system.
[29:52.160 --> 29:53.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: The old system has suddenly activated itself.
[29:53.700 --> 29:54.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now it's flashing.
[29:54.600 --> 29:55.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did somebody plug that in?
[29:56.280 --> 29:57.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or it's just coming to life on its own?
[29:58.100 --> 29:59.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now we get two flashing lights.
[29:59.240 --> 30:00.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's two lines ringing.
[30:00.200 --> 30:00.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey.
[30:00.920 --> 30:01.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[30:01.600 --> 30:04.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know that there are lines ringing.
[30:04.200 --> 30:05.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's two flashing lights.
[30:05.100 --> 30:06.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now there's one flashing light.
[30:06.280 --> 30:07.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: But that's interesting.
[30:07.460 --> 30:07.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[30:08.120 --> 30:08.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry, Ed.
[30:08.800 --> 30:09.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're just...
[30:09.320 --> 30:11.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're learning about technology here by the minute.
[30:13.240 --> 30:15.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: So congratulations, first of all, on finishing this.
[30:16.140 --> 30:16.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is...
[30:16.800 --> 30:21.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: All four volumes of Whizzywig now are in one hardcover book.
[30:21.760 --> 30:22.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that correct?
[30:22.860 --> 30:25.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it took about five years to put together.
[30:25.420 --> 30:33.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I do have to say that I'm almost jealous of the people who are going to be pledging for that 24-year archive of Off The Hook.
[30:34.020 --> 30:37.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because, like, I'm jealous that it's going to...
[30:37.240 --> 30:40.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're going to get to have this first experience with all those shows.
[30:40.300 --> 30:45.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, like, your show is the major inspiration for the work and everything.
[30:45.320 --> 30:51.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's awesome that people are going to get the chance to experience that in that awesome format.
[30:51.500 --> 30:58.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's interesting, too, because I remember when we first had you on, you told us that you spent a lot of time listening to Off The Hook.
[30:58.380 --> 31:05.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you were actually putting this book together while listening to back copies of the radio program.
[31:05.560 --> 31:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that correct?
[31:06.500 --> 31:19.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I think if people are diligent listeners who grab that archive from you guys, they'll be able to listen to it all in about 14 months if they listen to at least eight shows per day.
[31:20.680 --> 31:21.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, wow.
[31:22.260 --> 31:24.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's something.
[31:24.620 --> 31:26.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Can I share one of my favorite moments?
[31:27.180 --> 31:33.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a very small moment, but it just, like, it illustrates the time capsule element of the Off The Hook program.
[31:33.700 --> 31:34.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, please.
[31:34.460 --> 31:47.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's this one show where you sort of implored your listeners to just take a simple college course anywhere, at a community college, just so that they could have access to this wonderful network called the Internet.
[31:47.520 --> 31:54.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, listening to that in 2007 or something like that, it was quaint.
[31:54.820 --> 31:55.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[31:55.500 --> 31:58.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, imagine how quaint it is now in 2012 to listen to that.
[31:59.620 --> 32:02.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's incredible because there are a lot of outdated things.
[32:02.600 --> 32:07.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're talking about world leaders who are no longer leaders, and we're talking about these events that have long since passed.
[32:09.020 --> 32:10.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you learn from history.
[32:10.800 --> 32:15.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you don't learn from history, you have to take it over again and repeat it, I'm told.
[32:15.480 --> 32:22.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So this is a great way to learn, to share the information, and to have it for all time yourself.
[32:23.000 --> 32:27.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: In case something happens to our website and it goes down, or something happens to the radio station, it goes away.
[32:27.620 --> 32:32.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have this audio archive to take with you.
[32:32.140 --> 32:40.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe you'll be one of the ten people selected to go to Mars in 2023, and you can bring this with you and share it over there to whoever might be interested.
[32:40.160 --> 32:42.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think these people would be very lucky.
[32:42.900 --> 32:43.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please call in.
[32:43.780 --> 32:47.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's 209-2950 in the 212 area code.
[32:47.980 --> 32:53.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I pledged and got a lifetime, I think, of all of these packages once.
[32:53.100 --> 32:56.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I got stopped at 2006.
[32:56.440 --> 32:59.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't able to continue, but I did a similar thing.
[32:59.700 --> 33:05.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's interesting that you calculated it, that it's eight shows per day, and it takes about 14 months.
[33:05.020 --> 33:10.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hadn't really done the math, but I think I spent the better part of a year trying to catch up from the very beginning.
[33:11.000 --> 33:14.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I had listened to all the brain damage shows online before that.
[33:14.320 --> 33:15.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was a predecessor to this program.
[33:15.840 --> 33:16.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was, yeah.
[33:16.340 --> 33:16.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: A different idea station.
[33:16.820 --> 33:18.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: But very interesting, nonetheless.
[33:18.480 --> 33:31.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, let me just say that we're offering this book, Whizzywig, which is, as I said, a really thick, hardcover book with all kinds of great storylines we'll get into in a moment.
[33:33.380 --> 33:36.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, yeah, it's really... I can't stop looking at it.
[33:36.220 --> 33:40.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to disparage the content, but just for a moment, the book itself is really well put together.
[33:40.620 --> 33:42.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's got a cover with, like, cutouts.
[33:42.920 --> 33:43.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a 3D cover.
[33:44.240 --> 33:46.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: It makes that noise when you drop it.
[33:46.560 --> 33:48.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a really quality publication.
[33:48.860 --> 33:49.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, absolutely.
[33:49.760 --> 33:52.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: A graphic novel, if you will, of many different characters.
[33:52.900 --> 33:59.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, you will get this book, which has just come out, for a pledge of $75, 212-209-2950.
[33:59.600 --> 34:02.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll recognize some characters in there.
[34:02.480 --> 34:04.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let Ed speak to that in just a moment.
[34:05.180 --> 34:10.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: But there's all kinds of history and kind of parallel worlds to the things that we talk about here.
[34:11.400 --> 34:14.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, again, that's a pledge of $75, 212-209-2950.
[34:15.300 --> 34:24.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: A different pledge of $75 to the same phone number gets you the 24 years of Off The Hook on 22 DVDs and a pledge of $125 gets you both.
[34:25.020 --> 34:29.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Gets you both the 22 DVDs and the hardcover edition of WYSIWYG.
[34:29.980 --> 34:34.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you do your mathematics, you'll notice that $75 plus $75 does not equal $125.
[34:35.140 --> 34:36.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It equals something higher.
[34:36.280 --> 34:37.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's a bargain.
[34:37.820 --> 34:46.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you call 212-209-2950 and pledge $125, you get something that's already a good deal, but you get for an even better deal.
[34:46.400 --> 34:48.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, 212-209-2950.
[34:48.740 --> 34:55.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And just to dispel any false information that people might assume hearing that this is a comic book, this is a thick book.
[34:55.300 --> 34:58.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: This contains, what, five years' worth of comic strips in it.
[34:58.320 --> 35:00.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: And how many pages do you know off the top of your head, Ed?
[35:00.780 --> 35:02.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's 288 pages.
[35:03.180 --> 35:09.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: 288 pages of a solid storyline start to finish, all the chapters of it that were originally serialized.
[35:10.000 --> 35:12.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a hell of a read.
[35:12.140 --> 35:14.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a great book, and it's really well put together.
[35:14.860 --> 35:16.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: I absolutely love the cover.
[35:16.960 --> 35:20.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Ed, tell us something about the storylines, about the characters.
[35:21.280 --> 35:39.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sort of the way that I describe the main character, and I don't compare, you know, the work quality-wise, but the main character in Citizen Kane is akin to William Randolph Hearst, and the main character of WYSIWYG is kind of an analog to maybe the most notorious hackers,
[35:40.220 --> 35:43.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: quote-unquote, of the past 30 years or so.
[35:44.820 --> 35:58.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, other inspirations are certainly your show, you in particular, Emmanuel, and just all the trials and tribulations that, you know, have unfolded on Off The Hook, you know, that's it.
[35:58.340 --> 36:00.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have a different radio show in there, right?
[36:00.320 --> 36:01.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's got sort of a different title.
[36:01.940 --> 36:02.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sure, sure.
[36:02.740 --> 36:15.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, I mean, you know, very unoriginal, and any discerning aficionado of hacker culture is going to know that it's an homage to Off The Hook.
[36:15.000 --> 36:17.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what's the title of that radio show?
[36:17.820 --> 36:18.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Off the Rocker.
[36:18.960 --> 36:20.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Off the Rocker, yeah!
[36:21.400 --> 36:23.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I should have called the show Off the Rocker.
[36:23.520 --> 36:25.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that makes a lot more sense.
[36:26.140 --> 36:33.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I sort of like that idea of, you know, there was the radio show of Brain Damage and Off The Hook, so it kind of married the two, in a way.
[36:33.800 --> 36:34.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[36:34.180 --> 36:35.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: So you were a Brain Damage listener, too, then?
[36:36.760 --> 36:37.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right, yeah.
[36:37.300 --> 36:42.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I certainly didn't listen to them all, but, yeah, I do have some of those.
[36:42.860 --> 36:44.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, those Saturday nights were not wasted after all.
[36:45.000 --> 36:45.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's good to know.
[36:46.460 --> 36:47.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, okay, so you have the storyline.
[36:48.180 --> 36:51.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many characters, regular characters, would you say are in this book?
[36:52.000 --> 37:03.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's really focusing on one main character, and maybe some weird media sorts of people, but it's hard to explain.
[37:03.220 --> 37:23.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are a lot of different, like, a big part of the story is just media's interpretation of what a hacker is, and that includes what, you know, a regular civilian thinks about hackers and hacker culture, which, you know, initially my interest in the culture was to just learn verboten and,
[37:23.380 --> 37:32.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: you know, nebulous information, because all that I knew about hacking culture was from what major media sources told me.
[37:32.680 --> 37:39.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so I found your show and just absolutely fell in love with everything and got a really good picture of what it means to be a hacker.
[37:40.620 --> 37:48.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I just wanted to kind of do my own love story about, you know, about this very cool culture.
[37:49.180 --> 37:57.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you certainly succeeded in putting together this novel here, and I know it's been coming out for quite some time.
[37:57.320 --> 37:58.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: When did the first volume get released?
[37:59.840 --> 38:00.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe 2009.
[38:01.440 --> 38:13.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was just self-publishing little chapters here and there, just so that, you know, I've been a cartoonist for maybe eight years, and I just didn't want to completely disappear from the public.
[38:13.240 --> 38:15.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I wanted people to kind of know I'm still alive.
[38:15.540 --> 38:25.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: So just on these very small print runs of, you know, maybe a thousand copies each, you know, starting from 2009, I was doling out these books.
[38:27.000 --> 38:34.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, it's definitely an effort of the heart and something that's very unique and something you'll value for many, many years.
[38:35.020 --> 38:46.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, a pledge of $75 gets you the brand new hardcover edition of WYSIWYG, Portrait of a Serial Hacker by Ed Piskor, who joins us tonight on the telephone, 212-209-2950.
[38:46.580 --> 38:54.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: A pledge of $75, a different pledge of $75 will get you the full archive of Off The Hook, the radio show that you're listening to right now.
[38:54.580 --> 38:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's 22 DVDs, chock full of MP3s at full broadcast quality.
[38:59.900 --> 39:08.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a pledge of $125 gets you both of these premiums, 22 DVDs and the hardcover WYSIWYG collection.
[39:09.040 --> 39:10.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is only being offered tonight.
[39:10.260 --> 39:14.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, and this is the last night that we'll be doing fundraising here this summer.
[39:14.940 --> 39:16.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[39:16.560 --> 39:19.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'd like to see a strong showing, even though we can't see it from here.
[39:19.940 --> 39:22.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'd like to know that there's a strong showing happening.
[39:22.820 --> 39:26.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they're not updating the little calculator thing because maybe they're so busy taking phone calls.
[39:26.280 --> 39:26.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't know.
[39:26.720 --> 39:28.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's like a different country over there.
[39:28.740 --> 39:29.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can't even get to it.
[39:29.760 --> 39:30.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't know what's going on.
[39:30.600 --> 39:32.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just went to visit that other country.
[39:32.760 --> 39:35.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I have to say they were not as busy as I hoped they would be.
[39:36.020 --> 39:36.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[39:36.420 --> 39:39.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then I say, Mike, you get another phone call coming in.
[39:40.300 --> 39:42.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I don't know what I can say that hasn't already been said.
[39:42.880 --> 39:45.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: You call, you 212-209-2950.
[39:45.500 --> 39:46.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll talk to the volunteers.
[39:46.780 --> 39:47.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're very nice.
[39:47.280 --> 39:48.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just said hello to them.
[39:49.360 --> 39:55.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you'll get this amazing book or you'll get the 25 years of radio history.
[39:55.960 --> 39:57.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or you'll get both.
[39:57.740 --> 40:05.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what's amazing about your pledge is that you'll not only get these things, you'll help us to continue to make more years of radio history.
[40:06.000 --> 40:10.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you'll help everyone else on this station continue to make more years of radio history.
[40:10.760 --> 40:13.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that is something that you cannot get anywhere else.
[40:13.300 --> 40:14.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it is history, too.
[40:15.120 --> 40:17.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, encapsulated in this book, it is fiction.
[40:17.980 --> 40:18.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a fictional story.
[40:18.960 --> 40:40.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: But like you've seen so many books and comics and films and everything that are their own constructed stories that are based on, inspired by periods of history, it was great following the story from the start and realizing that, OK, this is our turn, that our hacker history and our digital history gets its own sort of treatment.
[40:40.380 --> 40:43.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a really well done and a really good, a really well constructed story.
[40:44.180 --> 40:45.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah.
[40:46.020 --> 40:55.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, a pledge of $75 gets you the WYSIWYG book or another pledge of $75 gets you the 22 DVD collection of Off The Hook.
[40:55.160 --> 40:56.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: A pledge of $125 gets you both.
[40:58.380 --> 41:01.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: These packages are something we work really hard to put together.
[41:01.340 --> 41:10.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And even if maybe you can't afford it or whatever, any kind of donation to the station is really helpful, and it is a vote for our show to stay here and keep going and thriving.
[41:11.160 --> 41:18.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: So please donate whatever you can, 212-209-2950, and support the station, support Off The Hook.
[41:19.020 --> 41:26.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we work really hard to get people like Ed to help us out, and we want to come up with creative and fun stuff.
[41:26.780 --> 41:31.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: We really are proud of this kind of work and putting together the audio.
[41:32.360 --> 41:34.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you can't get that audio any faster.
[41:34.640 --> 41:37.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, getting all of them all at once on disc, that's incredible.
[41:37.920 --> 41:41.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'd spend a long time downloading, trying to get everything.
[41:41.400 --> 41:43.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And at such high quality, I don't think it's offered...
[41:43.580 --> 41:44.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you can't download that.
[41:44.900 --> 41:47.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: The resolution of the audio is incredible.
[41:47.400 --> 41:47.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[41:48.160 --> 41:50.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, this is a really, really good package.
[41:50.400 --> 41:56.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please call now and support the station and get one of these packages, or donate anything you can.
[41:56.020 --> 41:58.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: That would be really, really good for WBAI and for Off The Hook.
[41:58.680 --> 42:02.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950, and we do take credit cards to make it even easier.
[42:03.220 --> 42:06.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and we're only offering this for another 18 minutes or so.
[42:06.960 --> 42:14.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: After that, for those of you who listen to us on podcasts and MP3s and all sorts of things like that, we can only offer these during our live shows.
[42:14.680 --> 42:24.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if you'd like to support us during any other time, you still can if you go to WBAI.org and donate in the name of your favorite show, which is Off The Hook.
[42:24.180 --> 42:24.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course.
[42:24.540 --> 42:30.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can, you can, we can't give you your premiums for that, but, I mean, we can't give you our premiums for that, but...
[42:30.760 --> 42:32.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's only during this hour that we can do that.
[42:32.180 --> 42:37.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's only during this hour, but your funds still go as a vote to, as a vote for our show and our station to Saturday.
[42:37.880 --> 42:41.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you're hearing this show at any time other than between 7 and 8 p.m.
[42:41.240 --> 42:45.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: on Wednesday night, we cannot offer these premiums, no matter what you might hear.
[42:45.840 --> 42:55.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: It can only be offered between our live radio time, Wednesday between 7 and 8, because Because otherwise, we'd just be constantly making things for the station and donating things.
[42:56.020 --> 42:57.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, we love donating things.
[42:57.200 --> 42:58.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can't do it 24 hours a day, unfortunately.
[42:59.600 --> 42:59.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[42:59.880 --> 43:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, speaking of history, speaking of the DVD set, let's go back in history again.
[43:04.040 --> 43:06.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: This time to 1995.
[43:07.300 --> 43:08.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, a little bit earlier than the last time.
[43:09.080 --> 43:18.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is an example of just one of the things that you'll hear on this massive 22 DVD set of every episode of Off The Hook from 1988 to 2011.
[43:19.860 --> 43:21.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[43:21.580 --> 43:22.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's listen.
[43:25.220 --> 43:26.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a good evening, everybody.
[43:26.960 --> 43:42.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Off The Hook, the program that deals with the dreaded term of cyberspace and all kinds of other fun things going on in the net community, the telephone world, the hacker world, the big brother Orwellian future that lies ahead for all of us.
[43:44.120 --> 43:49.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And tonight we have some rather sad news in the world of cyberspace, as it were.
[43:49.960 --> 43:51.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the world of hackers.
[43:52.460 --> 43:58.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is something that has not yet gone out over the wires, because I don't think the wires know about it yet.
[43:58.260 --> 44:00.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: But after tonight, they will.
[44:01.720 --> 44:03.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Early this morning, Kevin Mitnick was apprehended.
[44:04.080 --> 44:08.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kevin Mitnick being the hacker who was on the run for at least a year.
[44:08.180 --> 44:17.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this happened as a result, starting with a parole violation, probation violation last year.
[44:17.640 --> 44:40.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you recall, we had a show focusing on what happened in Chicago at a convention called Computers, Freedom and Privacy, where the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigated three wrong people, including a former CIA operative, thinking that they were on the trail of both Kevin Mitnick and Agent Steele,
[44:43.220 --> 44:53.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: who was someone working for the FBI at one point, who was trying to entrap hackers, and then went on the run himself and was committing all kinds of crimes.
[44:53.980 --> 44:58.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: They caught up with Agent Steele not too long after that.
[44:58.460 --> 45:11.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: But Kevin Mitnick always remained one step ahead, sometimes two steps ahead, up until this morning, when he was apprehended in, from what I hear, North Carolina, our favorite state.
[45:13.460 --> 45:15.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's really all we know right now.
[45:16.240 --> 45:19.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: We know this happened at about, I think, three in the morning our time.
[45:22.680 --> 45:27.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what's funny about all this is that I just talked to him only a couple of days ago.
[45:27.820 --> 45:35.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I was talking to him fairly recently, before he actually got apprehended.
[45:36.760 --> 45:45.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's kind of a sad thing when you're talking to somebody that's on the run like that, because, you know, there are so many things that they want to do that they just can't do.
[45:46.300 --> 45:47.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: They can't hang out publicly.
[45:47.840 --> 45:53.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: They can't go to meetings or see anybody that they might be expected to see.
[45:53.900 --> 45:57.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: They pretty much have to live a rented car, motel, fast food life.
[45:58.000 --> 45:59.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's sort of what Kevin was doing.
[46:00.460 --> 46:02.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I never asked him where he was.
[46:02.540 --> 46:03.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't want to know.
[46:04.560 --> 46:08.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I only hoped, deep down within me, that he had left the country.
[46:10.520 --> 46:11.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously, he didn't.
[46:12.260 --> 46:20.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know a few weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago, there was a very close call in Seattle where he almost got picked up.
[46:20.260 --> 46:24.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think he somehow found out about it a half hour afterwards.
[46:24.320 --> 46:26.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: He basically missed them by about a half hour.
[46:26.960 --> 46:28.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they were very frustrated by that.
[46:29.360 --> 46:35.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And one thing I tried to tell Kevin was that these people are very, very good at what they do.
[46:35.940 --> 46:37.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to keep that in mind.
[46:37.300 --> 46:44.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And somehow, they're able to find people if they grow facial hair or get a nose job or something.
[46:44.680 --> 46:50.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you get your picture in the paper on America's Most Wanted, they somehow figure out that it's you anyway.
[46:51.280 --> 46:51.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know?
[46:52.180 --> 46:54.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: When's the last time you heard of the FBI not finding somebody?
[46:54.820 --> 46:55.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there was Abbie Hoffman, of course.
[46:56.080 --> 46:59.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I think he was the only person that was able to do it and pull it off successfully.
[46:59.160 --> 47:02.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody, especially today, with cameras all over the place.
[47:03.260 --> 47:03.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know?
[47:03.740 --> 47:04.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: You never know when you're being looked at.
[47:05.920 --> 47:07.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, you never know when you're not being looked at these days.
[47:07.820 --> 47:10.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because most of the time, you're being looked at somewhere.
[47:11.700 --> 47:18.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the kind of world that Kevin Mitnick had to live in and not be recognized.
[47:18.500 --> 47:20.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: It could only last for so long.
[47:20.600 --> 47:22.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think we all knew it was going to end at some point.
[47:22.940 --> 47:27.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I had this gut feeling that it was going to be soon.
[47:27.020 --> 47:31.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because it just seemed like things were reaching a crescendo.
[47:33.300 --> 47:36.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when you're on the run for so long, you kind of get sloppy after a while.
[47:37.140 --> 47:44.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You kind of don't think to cover your trail quite as neatly.
[47:45.300 --> 47:48.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was worried that he was calling and that I was talking to him.
[47:48.980 --> 47:51.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, if my phone was tapped, maybe they could do a trace.
[47:51.680 --> 47:53.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: If he was talking to me, maybe he was talking to other people.
[47:55.420 --> 47:59.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was rather sad to think of it in that way.
[48:00.500 --> 48:02.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, you might ask, well, this guy is a criminal.
[48:03.200 --> 48:06.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, how can you talk to someone like that?
[48:07.040 --> 48:08.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: How can you harbor a fugitive?
[48:08.400 --> 48:09.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, of course, that's nonsense.
[48:11.100 --> 48:14.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kevin is as much a criminal as any of us, I think.
[48:14.640 --> 48:16.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, his crime is knowledge.
[48:16.840 --> 48:19.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's something that really, really frightens people.
[48:19.740 --> 48:24.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it certainly frightens governments, agencies, people in power.
[48:25.300 --> 48:32.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because here's a guy that can do virtually anything on a network involving computers, involving the phone system.
[48:33.580 --> 48:35.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Admittedly, he's very good at what he does.
[48:35.280 --> 48:36.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Admittedly, he's very good at getting information.
[48:38.920 --> 48:41.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that makes people in high places very, very nervous.
[48:42.400 --> 48:43.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: No question about that.
[48:45.340 --> 48:48.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: But is the guy, a criminal, worthy of being locked up?
[48:49.580 --> 48:50.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think so.
[48:51.600 --> 49:02.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when you think of what is in store for him, you really, really have to wonder if playing by the rules makes any sense at all these days.
[49:04.300 --> 49:06.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, let me bring up another story.
[49:06.480 --> 49:07.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: The story of Kevin Poulsen.
[49:08.000 --> 49:12.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kevin Poulsen is this other former hacker from years ago.
[49:13.540 --> 49:15.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was also quite good at getting into things.
[49:15.960 --> 49:18.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in fact, he really did lead a life of crime.
[49:18.260 --> 49:19.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: He actually stole things.
[49:19.660 --> 49:22.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: He stole equipment from a central office.
[49:22.580 --> 49:26.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how many of you have seen Unsolved Mysteries.
[49:27.760 --> 49:31.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: But Kevin Poulsen was featured on that once when he was still wanted.
[49:32.780 --> 49:40.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It seems they found various phone equipment in his locker, a locker that he was renting.
[49:42.720 --> 49:45.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they used that to charge him with a crime.
[49:45.600 --> 49:48.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this, I think, was the second time that he had been charged with a felony.
[49:50.480 --> 49:57.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what happened in this particular case was that the evidence was ruled inadmissible because they did not have a warrant.
[49:57.840 --> 49:59.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: They went into a locker that he was still paying for.
[49:59.800 --> 50:01.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was illegally searched.
[50:02.320 --> 50:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the evidence did not hold up in court.
[50:04.460 --> 50:08.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, a few months ago, the government appealed that.
[50:09.700 --> 50:12.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And unlike most appeals, the government won.
[50:13.400 --> 50:17.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, Kevin Poulsen will be sentenced on February 27th.
[50:18.860 --> 50:23.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the good news in this is that Kevin Poulsen has been in prison for four years.
[50:23.340 --> 50:25.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's no way he could get any more than four years for that crime.
[50:27.460 --> 50:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bad news is that there are other crimes that he's accused of.
[50:32.820 --> 50:34.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: One of which is espionage.
[50:34.460 --> 50:39.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if you saw this, if you saw the thing on Solved Mysteries.
[50:40.520 --> 50:43.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I really thought they'd present a stronger case against him on a program like that.
[50:44.000 --> 50:52.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: But basically, they said because he had an unlisted phone number of some embassy on him, and because he was believed to have tapped into a phone conversation at one point, that made him a spy.
[50:52.600 --> 50:54.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, they were going to charge him with espionage.
[50:55.840 --> 51:03.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a whole host of other things that they were able to come up with after a night of brainstorming with a box of Dunkin' Donuts or something.
[51:03.960 --> 51:08.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, when you want to charge somebody with a crime, it just takes a bit of imagination to figure out what to charge them with.
[51:09.980 --> 51:20.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, if Kevin is not sent to prison for longer than four years, the time he's already served will have counted.
[51:21.140 --> 51:24.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then he'll go straight to Northern California where he'll face these new charges.
[51:26.880 --> 51:27.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: What does that mean?
[51:28.300 --> 51:37.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, California has this wonderful three-strikes-you're-out rule that the crime wave of this country has forced us to implement.
[51:38.580 --> 51:42.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that means the guy could get life imprisonment for this with no hope of parole.
[51:43.340 --> 51:45.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that is the kind of society that we are living in now.
[51:47.300 --> 51:49.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we're going to have to put an end to this.
[51:49.620 --> 51:51.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: This could go on for quite some time.
[51:51.020 --> 51:52.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: We do have a bit more left of this clip.
[51:52.840 --> 51:53.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: But that's from 1995.
[51:55.340 --> 52:01.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not the very beginning of the Kevin Mitnick saga, but the beginning of that phase of it where he was captured.
[52:01.180 --> 52:02.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was captured that very day.
[52:03.080 --> 52:05.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in fact, we had the exclusive on that story.
[52:05.200 --> 52:06.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It had not yet even been released.
[52:06.280 --> 52:09.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: We found out about it through our own sources.
[52:09.720 --> 52:14.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And those questions were being asked long before the Free Kevin movement had even started.
[52:14.640 --> 52:17.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: So as you can see, it was an issue back then.
[52:17.940 --> 52:21.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And all kinds of things were being considered.
[52:21.820 --> 52:23.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's part of the whole history.
[52:23.780 --> 52:33.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: The whole history package that you get when you get the 22 DVDs of Off The Hook throughout the years from 1988 to 2011 for a pledge to 212-209-2950.
[52:33.900 --> 52:34.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: A pledge is $75.
[52:35.600 --> 52:37.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And another pledge is $75.
[52:37.300 --> 52:40.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You will get the WYSIWYG graphic novel.
[52:41.340 --> 52:47.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's a hardcover book that encompasses much of the same history in fictitious form.
[52:48.440 --> 52:52.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, for a pledge of $75, 212-209-2950, you'll get that book.
[52:52.580 --> 52:59.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you want both, if you want both the DVD collection and the book, a pledge of $125, 212-209-2950.
[52:59.260 --> 53:01.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: There have been some calls coming in, which is great.
[53:01.940 --> 53:03.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: We need more calls coming in, though.
[53:03.400 --> 53:04.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't really have that many.
[53:05.400 --> 53:09.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is the last couple of minutes that we've got for tonight.
[53:09.720 --> 53:10.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead, Barney.
[53:10.960 --> 53:11.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[53:11.660 --> 53:20.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was just reading this amazing book, WYSIWYG, which, by the way, for our listeners who don't know WYSIWYG, is the spelled-out acronym for What You See is What You Get.
[53:21.040 --> 53:25.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a great title for this book because it is so...
[53:25.560 --> 53:27.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just a comic book.
[53:27.180 --> 53:41.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is an amazing, unsettling novel about hacker culture and with a lot of composite characters of people we know, some people on this show, and what has happened to them over the years.
[53:41.940 --> 53:54.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some very thinly veiled, true-to-life stories are very well and accurately documented in this book, with some dramatic liberties thrown in.
[53:55.140 --> 54:01.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just an amazing volume that should be on your shelf right next to classics like Stephen Levy's Hackers.
[54:01.780 --> 54:08.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is an amazing five-year labor of love by Ed Piscor, and I want to congratulate him for putting this together.
[54:08.260 --> 54:10.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a real piece of work.
[54:10.080 --> 54:18.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, listeners, you should really take this advantage of getting a signed copy of this book by calling 212-209-2950.
[54:19.380 --> 54:31.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be supporting a station that inspired Ed Piscor to engage in this five-year project to document hacker culture and history.
[54:31.400 --> 54:42.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is really all-encompassing the book, the DVD collection of the complete Off The Hook archives, and this radio station, WBAI.
[54:42.720 --> 54:43.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're all interconnected.
[54:43.800 --> 54:45.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950.
[54:45.740 --> 54:53.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you touched upon a very good point, Bernie, in that there is so much history here, and it kind of lends itself to more history being created.
[54:53.540 --> 54:55.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: The book was inspired by the radio show.
[54:55.520 --> 55:13.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: The radio show was able to get word out of all sorts of things, including the Kevin Mitnick story, your own personal story when you were going through all kinds of legal problems, so many advances and regressions of technology, the change of our culture over the last few decades,
[55:14.180 --> 55:22.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: so many things that have been documented in audio format that you can now have at your disposal any time.
[55:22.520 --> 55:29.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You want to look something up, just go check out the summary that comes with the DVD set.
[55:29.680 --> 55:33.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go to any particular date and listen to what happened on that particular day.
[55:33.360 --> 55:34.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's really pretty incredible.
[55:34.740 --> 55:36.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I find myself doing that occasionally.
[55:36.180 --> 55:39.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, to get these clips, I was doing that, and it's really interesting.
[55:39.720 --> 55:43.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: It makes you late for appointments sometimes because you just find yourself captivated by it all.
[55:43.860 --> 55:48.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you can copy these MP3s onto any kind of device you want.
[55:48.800 --> 55:52.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Listen to it while you're exercising or driving or whatnot.
[55:53.300 --> 55:56.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950 in the last couple of minutes now.
[55:56.620 --> 56:01.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And again, a pledge of $125 gets you everything, gets you the book, and gets you all the DVDs.
[56:01.900 --> 56:05.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a pledge of $75 gets you either the book or the DVDs.
[56:05.200 --> 56:06.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[56:06.840 --> 56:10.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Ed Piskor, author of WYSIWYG, I just want to give you the final word here.
[56:10.760 --> 56:21.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now that you've printed this incredible volume of hacker history of a sense, what's next for you?
[56:22.180 --> 56:32.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, right now I'm working with Boing Boing and, you know, Corey Doctorow and Mark Frauenfeldernam doing a weekly comic strip on that site that's sort of a...
[56:32.360 --> 56:38.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a more straightforward history of hip-hop and rap music.
[56:38.980 --> 56:39.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nice.
[56:39.940 --> 56:42.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which is quite different from this project, but...
[56:42.680 --> 56:43.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's it called?
[56:43.860 --> 56:46.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just call it The Hip-Hop Family Tree.
[56:46.800 --> 56:47.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[56:47.460 --> 56:48.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And where can people see that?
[56:49.060 --> 56:50.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's on boingboing.net.
[56:51.960 --> 56:52.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm.
[56:52.560 --> 56:53.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: On a regular basis?
[56:53.620 --> 56:55.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: It shows up on a particular day, or...
[56:55.640 --> 56:55.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[56:56.260 --> 56:58.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: New ones appear every Tuesday.
[56:59.300 --> 56:59.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[56:59.800 --> 57:00.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.
[57:00.500 --> 57:00.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[57:00.800 --> 57:01.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's incredible.
[57:01.440 --> 57:05.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, Corey, a good friend of ours, we've talked to over the years.
[57:05.600 --> 57:08.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just incredible to see this community shaping and evolving.
[57:09.120 --> 57:18.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think there's no better way than for someone to pledge for this and get this so they can have it in their collection and continuously learn from it.
[57:18.360 --> 57:21.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, Ed's a really accomplished comics artist.
[57:21.240 --> 57:26.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's worked with the late, great Harvey Pekar and Adult Swim and just all these awesome projects of his.
[57:26.760 --> 57:33.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm really... I remain flattered and touched that our piece of history is brought to the public by him.
[57:33.360 --> 57:33.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: So thank you, Ed.
[57:34.780 --> 57:35.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, no problem.
[57:35.560 --> 57:35.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you know what?
[57:36.040 --> 57:40.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just listening to that Mitnick is captured clip, like, it gave me chills.
[57:40.040 --> 57:44.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm going to absolutely have to go back and re-listen to a lot of that stuff now.
[57:44.300 --> 57:44.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Absolutely.
[57:46.140 --> 57:47.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, again, one more time.
[57:47.340 --> 57:48.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[57:49.360 --> 57:55.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge for the 22 full DVD set, 22 DVDs of Off The Hook from 1988 to 2011.
[57:55.820 --> 57:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or the book, WYSIWYG, four volumes.
[57:59.640 --> 58:01.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[58:01.000 --> 58:01.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge at $75.
[58:02.020 --> 58:02.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge at $125.
[58:02.460 --> 58:03.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Gets you everything.
[58:04.040 --> 58:05.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2950.
[58:05.800 --> 58:06.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's it for our fundraiser.
[58:07.000 --> 58:09.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be back next week with a normal show.
[58:09.680 --> 58:10.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, remember those?
[58:11.160 --> 58:14.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Until then, write to us, oth@2600.com.
[58:14.340 --> 58:15.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the manual for everybody else.
[58:15.660 --> 58:16.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have a good night.
[58:20.350 --> 58:22.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just ran out of milk.
[58:22.730 --> 58:24.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's no paper in the loo.
[58:25.030 --> 58:25.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: The millet bomb.
[58:26.210 --> 58:27.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: And now it started raining.
[58:28.850 --> 58:31.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Lightly thunder to a millet bomb.
[58:31.670 --> 58:33.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I begin to wonder.
[58:33.990 --> 58:35.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: How bad can it get?
[58:36.910 --> 58:39.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: A burger comes in through my door.
[58:39.570 --> 58:41.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Makes my TV set.
[58:42.310 --> 58:44.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: So why light up the cigarette?
[58:45.130 --> 58:47.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Listen to some sounds.
[58:47.990 --> 58:49.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Set my house on fire.
[58:50.850 --> 58:52.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Burnt it to the ground.
[58:53.450 --> 58:55.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Couldn't get much worse.
[58:55.730 --> 58:57.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if they could, they would.
[58:57.890 --> 58:59.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: But middly bomb for the best.
[58:59.650 --> 59:00.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Expect the worst.
[59:01.330 --> 59:03.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope the sun is good.
[59:03.330 --> 59:04.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: And middly bomb!
[59:09.790 --> 59:11.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: And now I've got a console.
[59:12.190 --> 59:14.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: My brother's on the run.
[59:15.430 --> 59:17.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I might have a change of luck.
[59:17.930 --> 59:19.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Before my day is done.
[59:20.850 --> 59:22.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Couldn't get much worse.
[59:23.170 --> 59:25.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if they could, they would.
[59:25.290 --> 59:26.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: But middly bomb for the best.
[59:26.910 --> 59:27.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Expect the worst.
[59:28.770 --> 59:30.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope the sun is good.
[59:30.910 --> 59:31.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: But middly bomb!
[59:37.940 --> 59:39.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we got the type of IJ.
[59:40.160 --> 59:42.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's for a video that you can see.
[59:42.940 --> 59:43.380]  Take it
[59:49.750 --> 59:51.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: to the ground around now.
[59:51.210 --> 59:52.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it is better than a boss.
[59:56.790 --> 59:58.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the preceding program.
[59:58.870 --> 59:59.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Off The Hook.
[59:59.390 --> 01:00:01.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's with you live with certain portions on the recording.