Off The Hook - 2012-08-01

[00:00.850 --> 00:02.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, my name is Aasif Mohamed.
[00:02.970 --> 00:08.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: When I'm in New York, I always have my radio tuned to 99.5 FM WBAI.
[00:08.590 --> 00:13.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: When I'm traveling, I'll listen on the web at WBAI.org.
[00:13.950 --> 00:14.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Assalamu alaikum.
[00:15.150 --> 00:16.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Aasif Mohamed.
[00:16.530 --> 00:22.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: When I'm in New York, I always listen to 99.5 FM WBAI.
[00:22.790 --> 00:27.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: And when I'm on the road, I listen to WBAI.org.
[00:31.320 --> 00:34.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the time is just about 7 o'clock p.m.
[00:35.240 --> 00:37.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Eastern United States time.
[00:37.600 --> 00:44.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: You are listening to WBAI 99.5 New York, and it's time for another exciting episode of Off The Hook.
[01:54.580 --> 01:55.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: And a very good evening to you.
[01:56.160 --> 01:57.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: The show is Off The Hook.
[01:58.080 --> 01:58.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Rob T. Firefly here with you.
[01:58.930 --> 02:01.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
[02:01.490 --> 02:01.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello.
[02:02.210 --> 02:04.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we have Bernie S. on the phone.
[02:07.800 --> 02:09.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do we really have Bernie S. on the phone?
[02:10.060 --> 02:10.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I'm here.
[02:11.040 --> 02:11.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, wow.
[02:11.360 --> 02:11.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Amazing.
[02:12.200 --> 02:12.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: There you are.
[02:13.000 --> 02:16.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we do not have Emmanuel Goldstein because of traffic.
[02:17.040 --> 02:22.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Apparently when it rains, it's not even raining that hard, but apparently when it rains, it makes driving take longer.
[02:22.580 --> 02:24.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he hasn't quite figured this out yet.
[02:25.580 --> 02:26.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it might be hailing.
[02:26.720 --> 02:27.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not here.
[02:28.200 --> 02:28.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's good.
[02:28.860 --> 02:32.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, at least as of a few minutes ago when I was last outside.
[02:32.940 --> 02:34.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, did you hear about this story?
[02:35.260 --> 02:36.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Some guy got banned from Twitter.
[02:37.040 --> 02:40.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: A journalist got banned from Twitter for tweeting an email address.
[02:41.140 --> 02:41.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, I heard.
[02:41.960 --> 02:45.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, it wasn't for tweeting an email address.
[02:45.380 --> 02:57.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: It apparently was for violating a Twitter policy of not tweeting a private email address of somebody who works for NBC, apparently.
[02:57.560 --> 03:00.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: But that guy's email address was already on the Internet.
[03:00.520 --> 03:02.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: It wasn't private or anything.
[03:02.820 --> 03:07.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Not to mention the guy's email address was like firstname.lastname at NBC.com.
[03:07.540 --> 03:08.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, like everybody else at NBC.
[03:08.680 --> 03:09.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not very hard to guess.
[03:10.440 --> 03:12.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And this is a policy I've never heard of before.
[03:12.480 --> 03:15.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: It certainly hasn't been enforced before, to my knowledge.
[03:16.980 --> 03:22.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: But one of the interesting things about this is that Twitter and NBC are partnering for Olympics coverage.
[03:22.820 --> 03:30.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the emails in question, which were from a British journalist, by the way, were complaining about NBC's Olympics coverage.
[03:30.280 --> 03:33.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: So one has to wonder if there's any sort of connection.
[03:34.640 --> 03:35.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wait, Olympics?
[03:36.020 --> 03:36.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's that?
[03:36.660 --> 03:38.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've heard something about that, but...
[03:38.460 --> 03:38.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know.
[03:38.940 --> 03:42.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's apparently some massive traffic jam that they have in London this year.
[03:43.860 --> 03:49.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Something to do with lots more cameras being set up and civil rights being violated and stuff like that.
[03:49.640 --> 03:51.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Isn't that what they do year-round in London?
[03:52.200 --> 03:53.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: True, true.
[03:53.040 --> 03:54.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I think they've turned it up to 11 for this.
[03:55.540 --> 03:57.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a very special occasion.
[03:57.620 --> 04:06.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: So this guy apparently has been asking Twitter to tell him why, what exactly he did to violate the policy.
[04:06.160 --> 04:10.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: And supposedly they haven't responded to his inquiries.
[04:10.560 --> 04:16.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, his account has been reinstated, but they still haven't explained why it was ever cancelled in the first place.
[04:17.020 --> 04:18.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or at least not to anyone's satisfaction.
[04:19.340 --> 04:23.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, I mean, this is the sort of thing that happens all the time on the Internet.
[04:23.040 --> 04:27.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: But Twitter has sort of held itself out as the people who won't do this.
[04:29.140 --> 04:33.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it is apparently the case that at least in certain circumstances they will do this.
[04:33.480 --> 04:34.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's a bit worrying.
[04:34.840 --> 04:35.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[04:35.340 --> 04:39.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, it's one thing to get kicked off an IRC channel.
[04:39.540 --> 04:41.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: But Twitter's a different story.
[04:43.400 --> 04:45.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do you think we can maybe move to a different Twitter?
[04:45.640 --> 04:47.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's the problem with these centralized services.
[04:47.380 --> 04:49.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's very hard to give up.
[04:49.440 --> 04:52.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: No one's going to give up Twitter just because they did one thing wrong.
[04:52.040 --> 04:53.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then maybe they'll do another thing wrong.
[04:54.080 --> 04:57.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And soon they'll be doing lots of things wrong.
[04:57.200 --> 04:58.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they'll be entrenched.
[04:58.880 --> 05:00.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, there seems to be no accountability.
[05:00.980 --> 05:06.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: So what if Twitter violates somebody's...
[05:06.120 --> 05:08.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: Violates their own policy by...
[05:08.140 --> 05:09.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, they probably didn't violate their own policy.
[05:10.000 --> 05:13.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: What if they just kick somebody off for no apparent reason?
[05:14.260 --> 05:17.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they don't have to suffer the consequences by doing that.
[05:17.940 --> 05:21.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not like you could sue them for suspending your account.
[05:21.640 --> 05:23.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because you don't pay them anything for it.
[05:23.440 --> 05:25.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you wouldn't win anyway.
[05:25.280 --> 05:25.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly.
[05:25.420 --> 05:28.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: And who has the resources to hire a lawyer just because they got kicked off of Twitter?
[05:29.380 --> 05:39.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: So when you rely on these proprietary communications mediums like Twitter, you're kind of at the mercy of the provider.
[05:39.940 --> 05:49.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: And when a lot of people start relying on it as their primary form of communication or as a primary form, like you said, what do you do when they just kick you off for no apparent reason?
[05:51.240 --> 05:52.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: So who got kicked off of what now?
[05:53.440 --> 05:54.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you've been paying attention...
[05:54.900 --> 05:56.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: We kicked you off the show.
[05:56.460 --> 05:59.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've been running like a maniac through the streets of New York trying to get here on time.
[05:59.540 --> 06:01.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And let me tell you, it rained today.
[06:01.780 --> 06:02.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: It rained hard.
[06:02.900 --> 06:05.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And apparently I've seen people crashing into each other.
[06:05.680 --> 06:07.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've seen people just staring into space.
[06:07.940 --> 06:09.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: It just slows things down quite a bit.
[06:09.700 --> 06:12.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I put the blame on me because I bit off more than I could chew.
[06:12.800 --> 06:16.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought I could make it here on time and perform some errands.
[06:16.180 --> 06:19.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: But no, oh boy, it was something else.
[06:19.360 --> 06:26.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the good news is the smart car is basically defying the odds and running against all the computer projections.
[06:26.660 --> 06:27.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: But who got kicked off of Twitter?
[06:27.640 --> 06:28.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's more important.
[06:28.780 --> 06:31.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: A British journalist whose name I can't find.
[06:31.600 --> 06:31.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[06:31.780 --> 06:32.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: Which is a little bit embarrassing.
[06:32.260 --> 06:34.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: An anonymous British journalist got kicked off of Twitter.
[06:34.380 --> 06:35.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think I heard about this.
[06:35.720 --> 06:36.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Guy Adams is his name.
[06:37.200 --> 06:42.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I also heard about the guy who tweeted something offensive about a British swimmer in the Olympics.
[06:42.120 --> 06:43.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: That guy got arrested.
[06:43.640 --> 06:46.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: He got arrested for saying something nasty about the guy's dead father.
[06:46.540 --> 06:48.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, he didn't know he was dead at the time.
[06:49.780 --> 06:56.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I guess in England, there's a certain word for that, like malicious thought or something like that, or malicious speech.
[06:57.040 --> 07:00.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: They've never been on IRC before, so they don't know what that is really like.
[07:00.740 --> 07:05.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: But yeah, you can actually go to jail for that, for saying, yeah, you know, you really...
[07:05.020 --> 07:06.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: He said you let your father down.
[07:06.800 --> 07:11.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: You really let your father down, which I guess to a guy whose father has just died, that's a very harsh thing to say.
[07:11.660 --> 07:17.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, there were apparently nastier messages that followed that, but not that nasty.
[07:17.640 --> 07:22.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: Like, just nasty words, not like actual violence or anything like that.
[07:23.660 --> 07:30.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And there was a court case not that long ago in Britain that ruled you can say nasty things on Twitter, and they're still arresting people for it anyway.
[07:30.780 --> 07:34.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, yeah, it sure seems that way anyway.
[07:34.500 --> 07:35.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just realized Kyle's not here.
[07:37.180 --> 07:48.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: We both left Midtown about the same time, and he was in a retail establishment, and I said, you know what, it's probably quicker if you take the train, because I was in a car, and I wasn't able to stop any place, so I just headed...
[07:48.140 --> 07:52.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was over an hour ago, and he still hasn't made it here by train.
[07:52.420 --> 07:53.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, oh boy.
[07:54.080 --> 07:55.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it's chaos out there.
[07:55.880 --> 07:59.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're saying it's like two-hour delays just to get out of the city, or to get into the city, or...
[07:59.720 --> 08:00.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not even raining anymore.
[08:00.980 --> 08:01.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not raining.
[08:01.840 --> 08:02.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: People, stop panicking.
[08:02.940 --> 08:03.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not so bad.
[08:04.220 --> 08:05.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know what's happening out there.
[08:06.060 --> 08:07.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: I do know what's happening out there.
[08:07.240 --> 08:08.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just don't understand it.
[08:09.380 --> 08:10.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, yeah, so...
[08:11.560 --> 08:13.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: There have been some other things that...
[08:14.180 --> 08:14.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: concerning Twitter.
[08:14.980 --> 08:16.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, this is something that we've mentioned before.
[08:17.680 --> 08:19.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: But do you remember the name Paul Chambers?
[08:20.020 --> 08:24.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the guy who was found guilty of sending a menacing tweet in 2010.
[08:25.500 --> 08:27.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, that's the one I was just referencing.
[08:27.520 --> 08:28.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, he became a journalist?
[08:28.640 --> 08:30.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought he was just somebody who said he was going to blow up an airport.
[08:31.000 --> 08:31.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know.
[08:31.720 --> 08:32.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: When did he become a journalist?
[08:32.860 --> 08:33.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is he a journalist now?
[08:33.820 --> 08:38.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, he said, he said, crap, Rotten Airport is...
[08:38.820 --> 08:40.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, Robin Hood Airport is closed.
[08:42.120 --> 08:46.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: You've got a week and a bit to get your crap together.
[08:46.820 --> 08:47.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: He didn't say that word.
[08:48.160 --> 08:50.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Otherwise, I am blowing the airport sky high.
[08:50.700 --> 08:54.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a week later, he was arrested by anti-terror police for making a bomb threat.
[08:54.560 --> 08:56.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, yeah, so he...
[08:56.220 --> 08:57.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: His conviction was overturned.
[08:57.860 --> 08:59.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wasn't aware he was a journalist, though.
[08:59.220 --> 09:01.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Does posting on Twitter make you a journalist now?
[09:01.860 --> 09:02.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who says he's a journalist?
[09:02.800 --> 09:03.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: You did.
[09:03.380 --> 09:03.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just now.
[09:04.020 --> 09:05.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said someone else on Twitter.
[09:05.540 --> 09:05.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, okay.
[09:06.000 --> 09:07.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought you said it was the same guy we were talking about.
[09:07.700 --> 09:08.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, no, no.
[09:08.080 --> 09:09.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Different guy, same country.
[09:09.340 --> 09:10.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, they're different people.
[09:10.520 --> 09:11.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know that, right?
[09:11.340 --> 09:11.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, yeah.
[09:11.500 --> 09:12.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because everybody in England is different.
[09:13.480 --> 09:15.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: Some of them are even in Scotland or Wales.
[09:15.320 --> 09:16.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know where these ones are.
[09:16.300 --> 09:17.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can confirm that.
[09:17.420 --> 09:18.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or Northern Ireland.
[09:18.200 --> 09:18.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: No one ever talks about that.
[09:18.980 --> 09:19.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, Rob.
[09:19.420 --> 09:25.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it was pretty funny watching that whole thing unfold because, of course, there was a hashtag created for it, pound Twitter joke trial.
[09:26.020 --> 09:31.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: And he's gotten basically all these Twitter luminaries and UK luminaries on his side.
[09:31.920 --> 09:36.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Stephen Fry, people like that, just pointing out how absurd and insane this was.
[09:36.920 --> 09:45.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: And still he had to go through the whole system and it had to hit the courts before somebody decided that maybe he wasn't serious when he said he was going to blow up the airport that he was upset at.
[09:45.980 --> 09:47.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, it had several courts.
[09:47.280 --> 09:49.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: The first couple courts to look at it convicted him.
[09:49.580 --> 09:53.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then I guess the high court was the most...
[09:53.020 --> 09:54.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: They read it and they were like, really?
[09:54.700 --> 09:55.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: We convicted a guy for this?
[09:56.060 --> 09:56.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's...
[09:56.420 --> 09:57.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's stupid.
[09:57.860 --> 10:11.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, since this is the first program that we've actually been on in a while that we're not begging for money, in fact, it was very unfortunate for us because the show before our conference, the show after our conference, and the show after that were all fundraising programs.
[10:11.920 --> 10:17.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: We didn't really get a chance to talk about the conference and invite the listeners to talk about the conference.
[10:17.860 --> 10:19.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'd like to do that this show.
[10:19.300 --> 10:23.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: If people were at the HOPE conference a couple of weeks ago, whenever that was, it just...
[10:23.120 --> 10:24.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: It seems like it just ended, but it's...
[10:26.220 --> 10:27.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's fresh in our memories.
[10:27.920 --> 10:33.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: We invite you to call us tonight and tell us your experiences, highlights, lowlights, whatever it is that you want to...
[10:34.540 --> 10:35.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: to reminisce about.
[10:35.360 --> 10:42.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if by chance you weren't there and you want to know more about it or ask questions or theorize, you're welcome to call as well.
[10:42.640 --> 10:44.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: The phone number will be...
[10:44.180 --> 10:46.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is right now, but we'll be taking phone calls in a little bit.
[10:46.600 --> 10:48.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[10:49.100 --> 10:57.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, during the conference, we managed to pull together at the last minute a sort of impromptu episode of Off The Hook which went over the airwaves on Radio Statler.
[10:57.860 --> 10:58.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, that was real.
[10:58.480 --> 11:10.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, you know, I wasn't sure if that was a dream because I basically was operating and I had very little sleep and I remember at some point being pulled into some room someplace and being told that this was an addition of Off The Hook and I tried to do the best I could but how did that come out?
[11:11.040 --> 11:17.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: You were a bit there and our listeners can hear how that came out if you go to radio.hope.net they've put that episode up for download.
[11:17.960 --> 11:18.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, really?
[11:18.560 --> 11:18.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, indeed.
[11:19.120 --> 11:19.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, wow.
[11:19.460 --> 11:19.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: How scary.
[11:19.640 --> 11:25.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can hear us all while we're all in various stages of unconsciousness due to working on that conference 24-7.
[11:25.280 --> 11:40.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, okay, we're going to get back to that particular conference but there was another conference and the thing that kind of annoys me a little bit is that there has been so much press attention and so many people have written in so many people have written in even though we talked about this last week saying,
[11:40.520 --> 11:44.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: hey, are you aware that the director of the NSA showed up at a hacker conference?
[11:44.120 --> 11:48.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, yeah, he was a keynote speaker at DEFCON, Keith Alexander and a very interesting choice.
[11:48.840 --> 11:55.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't begrudge the choice at all but the media, you're missing a golden opportunity here.
[11:55.480 --> 12:06.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, the NSA director shows up at one hacker conference and meanwhile you have another NSA analyst for over 30 years showing up at a different hacker conference basically refuting each other.
[12:07.060 --> 12:16.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: One saying, oh no, we don't spy on American citizens at all and the other one saying that's what they do and that's what they've been doing for a while and that's why I quit and that's why I became a whistleblower.
[12:16.360 --> 12:22.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: It just seems to me it would have been a good story and they might have been wise to pay more attention to that.
[12:22.200 --> 12:26.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: It would have had a better story I believe but instead I'm just seeing the same thing over and over again.
[12:26.760 --> 12:33.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: This guy comes to a hacker conference hackers welcome him and yeah, you know, they're not spying on us maybe we should trust the NSA.
[12:34.700 --> 12:35.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not good.
[12:35.180 --> 12:39.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, so General Alexander who's the head of the NSA did not say we're not spying on Americans.
[12:39.720 --> 12:54.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: He said we are not compiling a dossier on every American and I'm sure that he's twisted the words dossier and every American in such ways that what he said may have been literally true but conveyed a misleading impression and they're very good at this in certain quarters.
[12:55.680 --> 13:02.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's certainly true and in front of however many people he was speaking you know, I hate to think how many people were taken in by that.
[13:02.680 --> 13:19.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: It sure would have been nice and I don't know I haven't seen the talk I haven't seen if there was a Q&A if anyone actually asked some of the questions that our own William Binney basically laid out as far as what the NSA has been doing and why it's so problematic.
[13:20.100 --> 13:35.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: There was like a funneled Q&A and I haven't seen it myself but according to the reporting there was like a funneled Q&A where people could submit their questions in advance and then the head of the event asked the most interesting ones and didn't like follow up when the General Alexander gave non-answers like the one I just summarized.
[13:35.940 --> 13:58.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, you see when we have Q&A basically anybody can get to the microphone can ask a question and sometimes it's a stupid question sometimes it's a confrontational question sometimes it's a softball but you know everybody has a chance kind of like when we take phone calls here so yeah if you're going to have the head of a governmental agency there you know let the crowd loose and see what happens
[13:58.340 --> 13:59.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: see how they can defend themselves.
[13:59.680 --> 14:10.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: and what they were what the NSA one thing the NSA was doing at that event was they were recruiting and in fact there is a there is a jobs page on the NSA's own site now aimed toward attendees of that conference.
[14:11.420 --> 14:15.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is it true they put the NSA recruitment table right next to the EFF recruitment table?
[14:15.780 --> 14:16.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that true?
[14:16.340 --> 14:18.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that just an urban legend?
[14:18.480 --> 14:20.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: That would be funny if they did that I don't know.
[14:20.600 --> 14:23.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because who did we have next to our EFF recruitment table?
[14:23.160 --> 14:24.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think we had a maker bot or something.
[14:24.480 --> 14:28.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know that EFF has a recruitment table in quite the same way.
[14:28.120 --> 14:33.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: They were definitely taking names well not taking names but you know if you wanted to help out you could sign some things and donate money.
[14:33.660 --> 14:39.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't unfortunately the EFF doesn't have anywhere near the budget of the NSA so they can't hire quite as aggressively.
[14:40.640 --> 14:43.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's some really intense marketing speak though on this page I've got it up here.
[14:45.140 --> 14:46.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: I could read some of this if you like.
[14:46.740 --> 14:47.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: You could.
[14:47.360 --> 14:47.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go ahead.
[14:48.180 --> 15:02.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay it says attention DEFCON 20 attendees this is on NSA.gov slash careers slash DC20 If you're up on your game you already know the National Security Agency and what we do so we won't bother with an explanation and you probably already know why you're here.
[15:02.980 --> 15:07.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: NSA we don't crack codes and develop new encryption algorithms just for the fun of it but don't tell our tech teams that.
[15:08.140 --> 15:17.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Around here it's all about the end game keeping you and your family safe and secure so we can all enjoy the simple things in life like buying new gear and going to DEFCON 21 without the threat of harm from foreign adversaries.
[15:17.300 --> 15:21.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: So here's the pitch and there's sort of a standard career pitch here.
[15:21.900 --> 15:24.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Are foreign adversaries targeting DEFCON 21?
[15:25.320 --> 15:25.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Evidently.
[15:25.880 --> 15:28.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is that a thing that they do the foreign adversaries?
[15:29.360 --> 15:32.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well you know it just gets people in the wrong mindset.
[15:32.640 --> 15:50.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believe one of these stories I'm looking at right now they say we need great talent we don't pay as high as some of the others but we are fun to be around and you guys are the best cyber community there is and it's all about securing our nation's infrastructure and things like that and you know it's not really hackers concern.
[15:50.120 --> 15:51.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think it should be.
[15:51.240 --> 15:59.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I love the closing line of this page though that says by the way if you think you saw cool things at DEFCON 20 just wait until you cross the threshold to NSA because you ain't seen nothing yet.
[15:59.840 --> 16:00.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what the NSA said?
[16:00.760 --> 16:01.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what the NSA said.
[16:01.580 --> 16:13.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay well that's that sounds intriguing but you know what if you go down there and you try and see the NSA for yourself you're going to be met with I don't know how many police cars was that Kyle that we were met with?
[16:13.640 --> 16:14.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh wait he's still not here is he?
[16:15.440 --> 16:29.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay well to answer for him we were met with four police cars just for being there and not a very welcoming attitude at all and you know I dare say they're not quite as cool as DEFCON people in the NSA at least they haven't shown that side to me.
[16:30.540 --> 16:57.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway so yeah Oh yeah now this is this is actually from the HOPE conference process of that is the voice of William Binney and you can you can go there right now you can go to www.hope.net complex and listen they were keeping each other happy they would listen to what William Binney had to say for yourself judge for yourself it's all there www.hope.net the audio of every single talk has been put
[16:57.260 --> 16:59.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: up and we have videos every single talk is already online?
[17:00.000 --> 17:23.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's already online wow that's amazing yeah we really we went nuts this year the videos are all available go to 2600.com to find out how to get those and the audio is all up online for free just to download and listen to so it's a fascinating talk and it's a fascinating subject I'm glad we're talking about it I'm glad we're having people like this speak but I really want to make sure that the
[17:23.380 --> 17:28.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: right questions are given a chance at least to be asked Bernie, what do you think about all this?
[17:29.460 --> 17:31.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: About the whole NSA thing?
[17:31.580 --> 17:59.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think it was a stark contrast between, not to drive a wedge between DEFCON and Hope, but I think it shows a stark contrast where Hope hosts a senior NSA analyst turned whistleblower who quit because he saw NSA violating the law and violating people's constitutional rights,
[17:59.060 --> 18:02.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: and he quit over it and went public, risking his own freedom.
[18:03.800 --> 18:09.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: Whereas DEFCON, we have the chief mouthpiece for the NSA extolling its virtues.
[18:10.320 --> 18:13.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think that speaks volumes.
[18:13.960 --> 18:23.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's great to have all sides represented, but let's have it all, you know, be open to debate, to question.
[18:23.220 --> 18:41.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's sort of what we did with the, what do you call it, panel, the snitch panel a couple of years ago, where we had Adrian Lamo and we had Phiber Optik and you and me and Kevin Mitnick all basically talking about the reality of informants in the hacker community and how that's a real problem.
[18:41.200 --> 18:46.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: We had one of them right there up on stage answering questions, some quite spirited from the audience.
[18:47.500 --> 18:50.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that dialogue needs to be had on a variety of levels.
[18:52.260 --> 18:54.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, I'm glad we're all in agreement on that.
[18:56.040 --> 18:57.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Should we take phone calls?
[18:57.220 --> 19:06.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because I'm still rather flustered after running down some streets and our listeners have not had a chance to weigh in in quite a while.
[19:06.220 --> 19:12.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here's actually a listener who did weigh in and asked a question of us a couple of weeks ago.
[19:12.580 --> 19:21.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: He wanted to know the artist or performer who did the music at the end of the July 18th, 2012 Off The Hook show.
[19:22.440 --> 19:24.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: It had a slide guitar.
[19:24.600 --> 19:27.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was very relaxing, a little reverb to it.
[19:27.100 --> 19:28.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Very nice.
[19:28.340 --> 19:31.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Except when it overpowers your voice, it's a little too much.
[19:31.660 --> 19:34.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, of course, that's the melodic sound of Brian Eno.
[19:36.380 --> 19:36.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[19:38.540 --> 19:39.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry?
[19:39.240 --> 19:39.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: What track?
[19:39.760 --> 19:40.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is...
[19:40.240 --> 19:40.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[19:40.640 --> 19:40.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's...
[19:40.920 --> 19:41.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is it?
[19:41.240 --> 19:42.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Big Green Sky?
[19:42.100 --> 19:42.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is it?
[19:43.400 --> 19:43.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[19:44.200 --> 19:45.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it is.
[19:45.840 --> 19:46.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, Deep Blue Day.
[19:47.040 --> 19:47.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what it is.
[19:47.840 --> 19:48.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's totally different.
[19:48.960 --> 19:49.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, it's...
[19:49.560 --> 19:51.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, Deep Blue Day by Brian Eno.
[19:51.080 --> 19:51.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's the one.
[19:51.740 --> 19:51.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[19:52.220 --> 19:52.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't get the other one.
[19:53.020 --> 19:55.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: Not to be confused with another green world by Brian Eno.
[19:55.420 --> 19:55.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[19:56.040 --> 19:57.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't confuse with anything.
[19:57.660 --> 20:01.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[20:03.040 --> 20:13.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: If people have any comments about Hope or about things that have been going on in the hacker world in the last few weeks, we want to thank everybody who supported us during the fundraiser.
[20:13.880 --> 20:15.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: We did very well, extremely well.
[20:17.200 --> 20:18.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's good for all of us.
[20:18.980 --> 20:24.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's good for the radio station, good for the radio show, and for all the future projects that we get involved in.
[20:24.460 --> 20:25.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there will be many of them.
[20:26.060 --> 20:29.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do remember, of course, to pay your pledge if you didn't pay my credit card already.
[20:29.920 --> 20:32.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, a number of people pledged for the Hope No.
[20:32.420 --> 20:36.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: 9 DVDs, which really skyrocketed through the roof.
[20:36.520 --> 20:38.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, yeah, they're not available anymore.
[20:38.960 --> 20:40.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if you pledge for them, yes, you will be getting them.
[20:41.180 --> 20:48.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, if you'd like to just throw us a little support when it's not fundraising time, you can still do that on WBAI.org.
[20:48.740 --> 20:55.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: We can't give you premiums for it, but you can still show your support for Off The Hook in particular and WBAI in general.
[20:56.480 --> 20:58.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, so we have some calls coming in.
[20:58.720 --> 21:02.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Shall we turn down this nice soothing music and go to the phones?
[21:03.840 --> 21:04.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, let's do that.
[21:06.640 --> 21:07.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And good evening.
[21:07.760 --> 21:09.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[21:09.560 --> 21:10.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, how you doing?
[21:10.480 --> 21:11.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is not a Hope issue.
[21:11.820 --> 21:19.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to mention the utilities, the gas, electric, and water are all trying to put in smart meters at houses.
[21:19.520 --> 21:20.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they're kind of forcing it on you.
[21:21.240 --> 21:22.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is a way to fight it.
[21:22.800 --> 21:25.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wonder what your take on them is.
[21:25.400 --> 21:29.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not only that, I had heart surgery and I was in a fib and I'm not.
[21:29.400 --> 21:30.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: My rhythm is correct.
[21:31.140 --> 21:32.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm concerned.
[21:32.580 --> 21:36.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am on a drug to help keep me from going back to AFib.
[21:37.040 --> 21:37.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm concerned.
[21:37.980 --> 21:39.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Could you give me your opinion?
[21:39.260 --> 21:40.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are these two issues related?
[21:41.280 --> 21:42.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry?
[21:42.340 --> 21:45.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: The issues about smart meters and heart issues.
[21:45.860 --> 21:48.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Some people think they are related.
[21:48.280 --> 21:49.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I've heard that said.
[21:49.860 --> 22:05.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: But ostensibly because the emitted RF energy and the type of modulation that the wireless smart meters use could interfere with pacemakers and things like that.
[22:05.460 --> 22:09.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: But the power these things have is like a fraction of what cell phones use.
[22:09.260 --> 22:19.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: So if you're worried about the concerns you just expressed, then you shouldn't be using a cell phone or go anywhere near anybody who's using a cell phone.
[22:19.860 --> 22:22.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because they're going to be far more dangerous by that logic.
[22:23.720 --> 22:27.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's also not a whole lot of evidence for this claim that I'm aware of, at least.
[22:27.680 --> 22:30.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know there's a movement to protect you from it.
[22:31.080 --> 22:31.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: From what?
[22:31.860 --> 22:34.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, some others have different takes on it.
[22:34.340 --> 22:39.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: The other thing, though, is they say that you charge you like, I think, $600 if you refuse.
[22:40.420 --> 22:41.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you refuse what?
[22:42.320 --> 22:44.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: To let them put the smart meters in.
[22:44.420 --> 22:44.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[22:44.660 --> 22:45.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: I find it interesting.
[22:46.020 --> 22:51.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, apart from the heart issue, or non-issue, what is your objection to the smart meters?
[22:53.440 --> 23:00.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a privacy concern, but I don't really care if they decide when I put my dryer and my stove and my microwave on, flat screen.
[23:00.220 --> 23:01.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's part of what they're saying.
[23:01.920 --> 23:03.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're so important to them.
[23:04.760 --> 23:10.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, that is a valid concern, and that's something that I share, actually, that a company...
[23:10.900 --> 23:11.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello?
[23:11.220 --> 23:11.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can you hear me?
[23:12.280 --> 23:14.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, you guys just have to not speak at the same time.
[23:14.880 --> 23:17.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bernie, you should know this by now after doing this for decades.
[23:19.800 --> 23:26.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, there is a privacy concern, because these smart meters can tell the utility when you're using...
[23:26.360 --> 23:33.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: Say your electric meter, for instance, can tell your electric utility exactly how much power you're using and when.
[23:33.380 --> 23:40.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it could, by looking at that information, someone could determine when you're home and when you're not home kind of thing.
[23:40.200 --> 23:42.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: And who do they share that information with?
[23:42.180 --> 23:43.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: We don't know.
[23:44.180 --> 23:59.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: So that, you know, whereas the old mechanical meters, or the meters that just weren't so smart but would just, you know, send out the monthly billing amount to the network, you wouldn't have that same kind of vulnerability.
[23:59.460 --> 24:03.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: So that, I think that is a valid, that's the only valid concern I can think.
[24:03.160 --> 24:05.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't think there's any valid safety concerns with these smart meters.
[24:06.160 --> 24:06.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I appreciate it.
[24:07.060 --> 24:11.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm the Suffolk County Elections Inspector that tries to call you guys, and I'm over in Brentwood, right, Bernie?
[24:11.320 --> 24:14.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, you succeed quite a bit, so thanks for calling in.
[24:14.240 --> 24:15.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's take another call.
[24:15.540 --> 24:15.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[24:16.080 --> 24:16.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on, off the hook.
[24:18.440 --> 24:19.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speak up, please.
[24:21.020 --> 24:21.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Some people get through.
[24:22.260 --> 24:22.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you there?
[24:23.060 --> 24:23.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is somebody there?
[24:23.560 --> 24:23.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, yes.
[24:23.980 --> 24:30.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: I just wanted to correct something that I think your co-host just said on the air a minute ago, if I could be of help.
[24:32.480 --> 24:38.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: The statement was something like, you can't get a premium if you call in because we're now not in the fund drive.
[24:38.920 --> 24:41.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: But actually, all they have to do is to make a contribution.
[24:41.360 --> 24:43.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: They still can get a premium, fund drive or no.
[24:44.160 --> 24:44.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's not what we said.
[24:45.020 --> 24:46.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: We said you can't get those DVDs.
[24:47.180 --> 24:47.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can get a premium.
[24:47.960 --> 24:51.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure, you can get a premium anytime by going to WBAI.org and pledging.
[24:51.640 --> 24:54.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we were saying you cannot get the Hope No.
[24:54.860 --> 24:55.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: 9 collection.
[24:55.340 --> 24:55.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was it.
[24:55.960 --> 24:57.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: You can get it anytime, right?
[24:58.120 --> 24:59.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: You can just call in and get a premium.
[24:59.240 --> 25:00.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, you can't get that anytime.
[25:00.780 --> 25:01.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can get a premium.
[25:01.960 --> 25:03.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can't get that premium anytime.
[25:03.500 --> 25:04.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, maybe so.
[25:04.320 --> 25:06.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I thought he was saying he could get any premium.
[25:06.740 --> 25:07.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, no.
[25:07.460 --> 25:08.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can get the premiums that are listed.
[25:09.120 --> 25:10.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go to WBAI.org.
[25:10.920 --> 25:15.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you can't get that because there was a really special deal for that one particular hour.
[25:16.460 --> 25:17.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's take another phone call.
[25:17.380 --> 25:17.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[25:17.780 --> 25:18.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[25:19.100 --> 25:19.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, guys.
[25:19.840 --> 25:21.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just wanted to thank you for an amazing conference.
[25:22.060 --> 25:23.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, someone actually calling about the conference.
[25:23.600 --> 25:23.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[25:24.340 --> 25:25.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: How about that?
[25:25.520 --> 25:29.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: I got hip to what you guys were doing about two years ago through WBAI.
[25:29.940 --> 25:33.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: I got to shake your hand, Emmanuel, and you too, Bernie, at the end of the conference.
[25:34.240 --> 25:36.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, yeah, I mean, just I'm so inspired.
[25:36.620 --> 25:40.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've been trying to share as much information as possible.
[25:40.100 --> 25:47.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've listened to the talk with Mogul, Eben Mogul, over and over again.
[25:47.000 --> 25:55.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've listened to the Benny talk over and over again, and just trying to wrap my head around, you know, all that's being said there, which is quite a bit.
[25:57.080 --> 26:16.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think one thing that I would really like to see more of is just more ways, which I mean, I guess it's kind of a huge thing to say, but just more ways of sort of breaking this down to size for people who can notice how interesting this is but are just totally overwhelmed by the code and the technical aspect of everything.
[26:17.740 --> 26:19.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Was this your first conference?
[26:19.420 --> 26:19.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Absolutely.
[26:20.300 --> 26:27.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, one thing I think is interesting as well is that people, because it's, you know, computers are somewhat intimidating to people.
[26:27.520 --> 26:33.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you're not a computer person, you know, you generally tend to be intimidated by computers and technology.
[26:34.100 --> 26:41.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's kind of interesting because, you know, the theory is just fascinating regardless, you know.
[26:41.660 --> 26:46.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's a lot of things that maybe I can't do per se, you know, in other realms outside of technology.
[26:46.600 --> 26:52.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: But for some reason, just the simple fact of it being related to computers intimidates a lot of people.
[26:52.260 --> 27:03.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, I've been trying to reach out to as many people as possible to say, hey, look, we really have to take some time to consider this stuff theoretically, because it's very important as far as the world we live in at this point.
[27:04.320 --> 27:13.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and if you'd like to continue to share that kind of knowledge, this week, this Friday, 2600 meetings are happening everywhere, including probably near you.
[27:13.640 --> 27:18.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: So if you go to 2600.com/meetings, you can find out where the meetings are.
[27:18.340 --> 27:20.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if there isn't one by you, you can start one.
[27:20.100 --> 27:21.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: I almost forgot it was the first Friday.
[27:21.700 --> 27:27.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've actually met you, Mr. Firefly, at the 2600 meetings, which are, yeah, also great.
[27:27.440 --> 27:29.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's really exciting what you guys are doing.
[27:29.440 --> 27:41.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I just think if there's some way that, you know, if someone could make a handbook, I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous, but I mean, that almost symbolically more than literally.
[27:41.540 --> 27:48.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if there's, you know, just ways of, you know, some people basically, including myself, need their hands held in walking into some of this stuff.
[27:48.720 --> 27:52.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: I personally was curious enough that I jumped in myself.
[27:52.920 --> 28:06.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if there are ways of breaking some of this stuff down to size, some of these security concerns, and also, frankly, I mean, I think in discussing this, it's so scary to me how many people say, oh, well, I'm not doing anything bad.
[28:06.460 --> 28:11.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Therefore, you know, I grant the government or whoever, you know, whatever agency the right to surveil me.
[28:12.020 --> 28:13.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's not the point.
[28:13.300 --> 28:18.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you're doing something bad or not, don't relinquish your right to privacy so easily.
[28:18.640 --> 28:19.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[28:19.840 --> 28:20.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well said.
[28:20.540 --> 28:20.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well said.
[28:21.060 --> 28:22.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Listen, thanks for calling.
[28:22.620 --> 28:23.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for attending.
[28:23.380 --> 28:25.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully you'll be back at the next one.
[28:25.180 --> 28:25.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I sure will.
[28:26.020 --> 28:26.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, guys.
[28:26.720 --> 28:26.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[28:26.960 --> 28:27.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Take care.
[28:28.120 --> 28:31.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, yeah, the way we're going, the next one will be in 2014.
[28:32.260 --> 28:35.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we don't yet have a name, but it'll be our 10th conference.
[28:37.260 --> 28:38.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's take another phone call.
[28:38.300 --> 28:39.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[28:39.700 --> 28:39.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[28:40.020 --> 28:40.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[28:41.940 --> 28:42.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speak up, please.
[28:42.720 --> 28:43.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Turn your radio down.
[28:43.360 --> 28:43.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, sorry.
[28:44.100 --> 28:44.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can you hear me?
[28:44.700 --> 28:44.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[28:46.220 --> 28:49.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, no, I also wanted to thank you for an awesome Hope Conference.
[28:50.660 --> 28:50.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks.
[28:51.640 --> 28:53.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: I had tons and tons of fun there.
[28:53.240 --> 28:57.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I actually brought my mom to the conference, and she learned lockpicking for the first time.
[28:57.260 --> 28:58.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And she's been studying that a lot.
[28:58.640 --> 28:58.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, wow.
[28:58.880 --> 28:59.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's...
[28:59.260 --> 29:02.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: You brought your mom to learn lockpicking, and that's amazing.
[29:02.440 --> 29:05.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the kind of thing that we really need to do more of.
[29:05.480 --> 29:06.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I know.
[29:06.140 --> 29:07.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, she had a great time.
[29:07.480 --> 29:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I really just wanted to call to say, while there hasn't been an exact day, I don't think, technically yesterday was the 30th anniversary of the Commodore 64, which is one of my favorite computers, even though I personally started on Elisa.
[29:20.220 --> 29:21.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just wanted to say that on air.
[29:23.200 --> 29:23.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Cool.
[29:23.820 --> 29:25.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this was your first conference?
[29:26.220 --> 29:26.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[29:27.880 --> 29:29.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You've probably seen me around before.
[29:29.720 --> 29:30.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the side pocket.
[29:30.740 --> 29:31.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've been around.
[29:31.880 --> 29:37.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I started with the last Hope, and that was my first conference ever in any sort of hacking or computer thing.
[29:37.820 --> 29:38.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it just blew me away.
[29:38.880 --> 29:45.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I started to go to other conferences, like not a con stuff, but nothing ever made up to Hope, and Hope is like my Super Bowl every two years.
[29:45.400 --> 29:51.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm always excited, and I can't wait to two years from now where my mom and I hope to attend all three days.
[29:51.720 --> 29:53.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, hopefully, yeah, that'll happen.
[29:53.800 --> 29:54.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Definitely.
[29:54.840 --> 29:55.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[29:55.260 --> 29:56.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, thanks for the call.
[29:56.400 --> 29:58.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for bringing you, Mom.
[29:58.900 --> 30:00.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that really makes a difference.
[30:01.640 --> 30:04.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: I like to think we're a lot more participatory than the Super Bowl.
[30:05.500 --> 30:06.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, yeah.
[30:06.200 --> 30:09.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I mean, everybody's welcome, and it's not priced out of the...
[30:09.700 --> 30:14.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, the Super Bowl, there's like, whatever, 50 people who are playing in it, and the rest of the people just watch?
[30:14.160 --> 30:18.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but they have to pay through the nose to watch, which is pretty crazy.
[30:18.360 --> 30:25.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: By the way, speaking of watching sporting events, with the Olympics, you know, have you heard about this with the badminton team, the badminton team through matches?
[30:26.420 --> 30:27.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Big scandal.
[30:27.420 --> 30:33.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can't find video anywhere of this, and I think the people who run the Olympics, I've just sort of erased that from history.
[30:33.560 --> 30:41.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: All I see on the newscast are still images of people with badminton rackets, but no video of them actually throwing the match.
[30:41.960 --> 30:48.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it was certainly recorded, certainly broadcast in various places, but they're doing a good job controlling this.
[30:48.480 --> 30:51.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: So if anyone out there has video of this, I want to hear about it.
[30:51.780 --> 30:53.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's oth@2600.com.
[30:53.660 --> 30:54.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: The manual.
[30:54.400 --> 30:54.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead, Marnie.
[30:55.060 --> 30:55.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: I saw it.
[30:55.660 --> 30:56.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: I saw the bad badminton.
[30:56.900 --> 30:59.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Did you see it live, or have you seen a news report about it since?
[31:00.120 --> 31:04.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: I saw it just a few minutes before the show on ABC Disney News.
[31:05.120 --> 31:05.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, really?
[31:05.980 --> 31:07.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: They broadcast it, and it was pretty funny.
[31:07.920 --> 31:15.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, they were just pretty much standing there and making lame attempts to hit the whatever the thing is, the shuttlecock.
[31:15.680 --> 31:17.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it was amusing.
[31:17.500 --> 31:21.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: And the crowd was booing them, and the judge was yelling at them.
[31:21.760 --> 31:30.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: But that must be online, although it would be interesting if the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, was censoring this and not allowing people to see it.
[31:30.980 --> 31:36.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: But you might find it on the Disney News, ABC News website, perhaps.
[31:37.100 --> 31:42.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, then I stand corrected, and I look forward to seeing this, because it sounds really hilarious.
[31:42.500 --> 31:42.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was.
[31:43.000 --> 31:44.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[31:44.760 --> 31:45.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's take some more listener phone calls.
[31:45.780 --> 31:46.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[31:46.240 --> 31:47.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on off the hook.
[31:48.560 --> 31:49.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speak up, please.
[31:50.460 --> 31:51.700]  Communist faggots, go to...
[31:51.700 --> 31:52.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, all right.
[31:53.080 --> 31:53.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[31:53.680 --> 31:54.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on off the hook.
[31:54.880 --> 31:55.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[31:55.760 --> 31:56.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[31:56.360 --> 31:56.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi.
[31:57.360 --> 31:58.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Ken.
[31:59.240 --> 31:59.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Welcome, Ken.
[32:01.960 --> 32:02.360]  Um...
[32:02.360 --> 32:04.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Turn down your radio, or you'll get very confused.
[32:06.340 --> 32:07.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Even more confused than we are.
[32:09.560 --> 32:11.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, you know, keep the radio nearby.
[32:11.980 --> 32:12.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[32:12.140 --> 32:13.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I got the radio off.
[32:13.280 --> 32:13.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good, good.
[32:14.060 --> 32:15.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, what's on your mind?
[32:15.500 --> 32:21.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I just wanted to bring your attention to an article I recently saw in Aviation Week and Space Technology.
[32:22.740 --> 32:23.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Aviation Week?
[32:23.820 --> 32:28.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the title of the article was, quote, Hackers vs.
[32:28.960 --> 32:30.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Cyber Warriors, unquote.
[32:31.720 --> 32:33.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, and tell us something about it.
[32:33.960 --> 32:42.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, it was about how, among other things, Israel is trying to recruit their, uh, cyber, uh, warriors.
[32:43.620 --> 32:47.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they, uh, you know, they screen, like, 17-year-olds.
[32:48.500 --> 32:53.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Since everyone there has to go into the military, they screen everyone.
[32:53.880 --> 33:03.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's one of, like, 10 different programs they have to screen, uh, you know, basically high school students with, for aptitude for certain things.
[33:04.020 --> 33:13.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the best known is their, uh, uh, screening for Air Force pilots so that they can be given intensive training early.
[33:14.980 --> 33:37.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, there was also a discussion in the article about how they might have to go after potential candidates earlier, like 13- and 14-year-olds, uh, you know, before they get, uh, seduced by either criminal organizations or, quote, foreign nationals,
[33:37.980 --> 33:38.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: unquote.
[33:40.100 --> 33:40.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[33:41.100 --> 33:42.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's the foreign nationals again.
[33:42.320 --> 33:43.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yep.
[33:43.740 --> 33:54.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, some countries seem to have, uh, more concern about, uh, foreign, uh, problems than most Americans.
[33:57.580 --> 33:58.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[33:58.660 --> 34:06.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I, I mean, uh, a lot of militaries are trying to recruit people to, uh, you know, fulfill the aims of those militaries.
[34:06.980 --> 34:09.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Some of them apparently even show up at DEFCON to do the recruiting.
[34:09.760 --> 34:12.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, but I'm talking about, you know, seventh graders.
[34:13.520 --> 34:14.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: To start with?
[34:15.060 --> 34:21.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, because, uh, you know, people, you have to get people before they've, uh, developed a conscience in a lot of cases.
[34:21.540 --> 34:24.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you're saying people, uh, seventh grade and under don't have a conscience?
[34:25.240 --> 34:30.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm saying, I'm saying it's not as developed or it's differently developed than, than an adult's conscience.
[34:30.220 --> 34:34.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or maybe it's just too well developed and it gets, uh, completely, uh, torn apart as you get older.
[34:34.820 --> 34:35.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe.
[34:35.180 --> 34:37.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think we'll get some letters from some elementary school kids today.
[34:38.100 --> 34:38.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: I look forward to them.
[34:39.120 --> 34:39.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: O-T-H.
[34:39.140 --> 34:40.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: oth@2600.com, kids.
[34:41.440 --> 34:42.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, let's take another phone call.
[34:44.240 --> 34:45.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: 209-2900.
[34:45.380 --> 34:45.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: And good evening.
[34:46.000 --> 34:46.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[34:47.060 --> 34:50.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed myself so much at the, uh, H.O.P.
[34:50.540 --> 34:51.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: conference.
[34:51.800 --> 34:59.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, you know, Emmanuel, I, I spoke with you for a moment on Saturday asking you if Jello Biafra was going to be there.
[34:59.380 --> 35:02.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was so sad to hear that he, he wasn't.
[35:02.920 --> 35:06.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: I do hope that if you, uh, do another conference, you can get Jello back.
[35:07.220 --> 35:17.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, one thing that was, uh, the greatest surprise of all, um, I had bought an early, um, uh, early bird ticket, like for $100.
[35:17.800 --> 35:18.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[35:18.380 --> 35:22.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then when I got the credit card bill, uh, the amount wasn't $100.
[35:23.400 --> 35:26.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, if you bought an early bird ticket, then it would be less than $100.
[35:26.980 --> 35:27.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[35:27.600 --> 35:27.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[35:27.740 --> 35:32.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because it came out to like $86.05 or something like that.
[35:32.420 --> 35:33.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, we never charged that amount.
[35:33.520 --> 35:34.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not quite sure how that could have happened.
[35:34.820 --> 35:35.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how that happened.
[35:35.760 --> 35:39.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: It should be an even number for all I know, unless there's tax and tip on top of your credit card.
[35:39.680 --> 35:45.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know how exactly it works, but, uh, it should have been the amount that, that you, you clicked on.
[35:45.620 --> 35:48.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if not, then let us know and we'll, we'll look into that.
[35:48.700 --> 35:51.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, just letting you know, that's, that's what it came out to.
[35:51.440 --> 35:51.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[35:57.740 --> 35:58.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see you at the next one.
[35:58.720 --> 35:59.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: You sure will.
[35:59.720 --> 35:59.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[36:00.220 --> 36:00.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for your call.
[36:01.680 --> 36:03.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[36:03.320 --> 36:03.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: And good evening.
[36:04.000 --> 36:04.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on off the hook.
[36:06.560 --> 36:07.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speak up.
[36:08.660 --> 36:10.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Boy, there are confused people out there today.
[36:10.800 --> 36:11.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[36:11.680 --> 36:12.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on off the hook.
[36:12.820 --> 36:13.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you there?
[36:14.300 --> 36:14.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[36:15.140 --> 36:15.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: How you doing?
[36:15.560 --> 36:16.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's on your mind?
[36:16.480 --> 36:17.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: We hear you just loud and clear.
[36:18.640 --> 36:19.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[36:19.440 --> 36:30.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm curious to know whether this guy can tell me about anything that protects you from, um, cell phone radiation or the radiation that comes from cell phone use.
[36:31.960 --> 36:32.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[36:32.640 --> 36:33.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[36:34.020 --> 36:35.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, it's not radiation like you think.
[36:35.760 --> 36:36.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not like x-rays.
[36:36.920 --> 36:42.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's, it's, this is, you know, compared to x-rays, this is really low frequency radio energy, just a few hundred megahertz.
[36:42.800 --> 36:47.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, um, if you're concerned about that, the best thing is not to hold the phone to your head.
[36:48.060 --> 36:50.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: Use, uh, use one of those wired headsets.
[36:50.940 --> 37:04.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, it's like, like, your, those, those ear, uh, earbuds, plug that into the phone and put those in your ear and don't, don't put the phone in your pocket, which would be near your genitalia or anything like that.
[37:04.640 --> 37:10.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: And just have the phone away from, you know, like a foot or two away from you while you're talking on a wired headset.
[37:10.300 --> 37:20.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: And the laws of physics mean that the signal strength reaching your body will be much, much, much, much lower when it's not near your body.
[37:20.980 --> 37:21.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: So there you go.
[37:22.080 --> 37:36.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, because, because one month I spent, uh, 6,000 minutes on the phone and just before the 6,000 minutes, I had a, uh, a sharp pain that went straight through my one ear and came out the other.
[37:36.660 --> 37:38.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you use Verizon by any chance?
[37:38.780 --> 37:41.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because that's, that's part of one of their calling plans, I think.
[37:41.540 --> 37:43.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right before the 6,000th minute, they, they jolt you.
[37:44.180 --> 37:46.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: To bring you back to reality and say, come on, live life a little bit.
[37:46.960 --> 37:47.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Get off the phone.
[37:47.700 --> 37:48.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're spending too much time on the phone.
[37:48.980 --> 37:50.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: 6,000 minutes in a month?
[37:50.380 --> 37:51.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Come on, people.
[37:51.840 --> 37:53.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, get off the, I love phones.
[37:53.420 --> 37:53.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: I really do.
[37:53.920 --> 37:59.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: I like, I like wired phones mostly, but you know, I like all kinds of phones, but 6,000 minutes, man, that's too much.
[37:59.680 --> 38:02.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, um, okay.
[38:02.120 --> 38:17.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Somebody had mentioned that their lawyer, which I, I thought was, uh, suspicious to begin with, gave them a wire, I mean, yeah, uh, a magnetic tape to put on the back of their, um, battery and that that was supposed to protect them from radiation.
[38:18.420 --> 38:18.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: Nah.
[38:19.720 --> 38:20.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Those, those don't work at all.
[38:21.020 --> 38:23.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, uh, what works well is get a landline phone.
[38:24.160 --> 38:24.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[38:24.340 --> 38:28.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you won't have any, uh, radio signals of any kind to deal with unless it's a cordless.
[38:28.240 --> 38:29.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let me ask you, Rob T.
[38:29.100 --> 38:30.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Firefly, do you have a landline phone?
[38:30.400 --> 38:32.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: I used to have a landline phone.
[38:32.240 --> 38:32.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[38:32.660 --> 38:33.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mike, do you have a landline phone?
[38:33.800 --> 38:33.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[38:34.180 --> 38:35.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bernie, do you have a landline phone?
[38:35.380 --> 38:35.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: I do.
[38:35.760 --> 38:37.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's just not connected to a phone line.
[38:37.080 --> 38:37.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, come on.
[38:38.180 --> 38:39.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, it's not so hard.
[38:39.940 --> 38:42.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just plug it in and, and start using it.
[38:42.260 --> 38:44.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm the only one here that has a landline phone, apparently.
[38:44.920 --> 38:46.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe even in the whole block.
[38:46.640 --> 38:50.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm moving into a place that has a landline plug already, sir.
[38:50.680 --> 38:51.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mm-hmm.
[38:51.260 --> 38:59.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I, I would also advise the caller that if you're feeling physical symptoms, then you should see a doctor and, uh, they'll tell you what's causing it.
[38:59.280 --> 38:59.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Absolutely.
[39:00.280 --> 39:03.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you feel physical symptoms of any sort, don't call a radio show.
[39:03.400 --> 39:06.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Call, call, uh, a doctor or somebody who knows this kind of thing.
[39:07.260 --> 39:07.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[39:07.460 --> 39:08.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for that call.
[39:08.140 --> 39:09.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's, uh, take another one over here.
[39:09.700 --> 39:10.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, good evening.
[39:10.720 --> 39:11.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[39:12.380 --> 39:12.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, good evening.
[39:13.080 --> 39:13.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[39:13.320 --> 39:16.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was actually calling, uh, calling in to say how much I enjoyed hoping.
[39:16.760 --> 39:20.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was involved, uh, with Bernie S on the amateur radio station set up.
[39:20.220 --> 39:22.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: That went really well from everything I'm, I'm hearing.
[39:22.880 --> 39:23.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[39:23.240 --> 39:23.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, it's fantastic.
[39:24.200 --> 39:31.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, the past couple of hopes, we had sort of a slow momentum of, of, you know, Bernie leading, bringing the set up and getting some tenants and co-accessing.
[39:31.800 --> 39:33.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: This year, we really had a great concerted effort.
[39:34.000 --> 39:39.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: We made, uh, I think 15 countries, Bernie, uh, and, uh, I don't have any other contacts.
[39:39.600 --> 39:52.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: And mind you, in New York, there's such a loud noise level, all sorts of electronics and everything else for us to punch through and contact, uh, like Argentina and a couple of contacts in Cuba and everything else is really good feed.
[39:52.380 --> 39:57.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: And those contacts are mostly in reduced power and, um, not even voice.
[39:57.420 --> 39:59.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're using just digital communications.
[39:59.580 --> 40:05.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, for those of you who are at the HOPE conference, uh, these guys were set up right next to the 2600 store upstairs.
[40:05.640 --> 40:10.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they were the guys running around, uh, with, uh, radios acting very excited because they were always doing something new.
[40:11.060 --> 40:18.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I, I'd just like to ask two of you, uh, during the conference, did, uh, very many people, uh, new people walk up to you and say, Hey, what are you guys doing?
[40:19.440 --> 40:21.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, a lot of people did.
[40:21.180 --> 40:24.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, so many people were intrigued by what we were doing.
[40:24.920 --> 40:31.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, basically we were, we were making, uh, voice and data contacts around the world.
[40:32.280 --> 40:34.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, you know, voice data communications around the world.
[40:34.820 --> 40:41.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Without any infrastructure between our location and the other people, which is amazing.
[40:41.440 --> 40:54.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Nothing in between us contacting Russia and Cuba and Germany and Argentina and all kinds of other countries without any, any buddy in between us operating an infrastructure.
[40:54.260 --> 40:56.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you're speaking voice, Morse code, what?
[40:56.620 --> 41:05.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, voice, uh, I think there was some Morse code activity, which we call CW, but primarily we were using a mode called PSK 31, which is a digital modulation mode.
[41:06.060 --> 41:12.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's kind of like, uh, it's just typing back and forth and, but it works with really high noise levels and it works with really low power.
[41:13.160 --> 41:24.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, but so many people were impressed that people decided to come to our, uh, amateur radio, uh, exam session on Sunday morning and 20 people passed their, uh, ham radio licenses.
[41:24.720 --> 41:30.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, some of them, an upgrade to their previous license, but most of them were brand new, uh, amateur radio operators or hams.
[41:30.980 --> 41:33.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we've done this at every hope for the past four hopes.
[41:33.940 --> 41:38.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: About a hundred people have passed their ham radio licenses, which is an FCC technical examination.
[41:38.860 --> 41:42.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: It shows that you, you know what you're doing technically.
[41:43.040 --> 41:50.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, um, that's just, you know, that just warms my heart that so many people, uh, decided to take this exam and, uh, and show they know their stuff.
[41:52.400 --> 41:54.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, caller, any, anything else you'd like to add?
[41:55.340 --> 42:06.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no, like you said, a lot of people come up and people who already had their licenses and you see, there's a lot of people who typically walk around maybe with, uh, the handhelds, but again, we're doing international communication and they're wondering,
[42:07.020 --> 42:13.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: and they, since they've seen something familiar, the laptop in front of the radio, we're wondering, you know, what were the technology and the investment involved?
[42:13.800 --> 42:16.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we're trying to pretty much get involved in this cheaply.
[42:16.240 --> 42:29.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we also, I know we had some other radio equipment, we had something called software defined radio, where that is, is using much of the computer's sound and processing capability to deal with, uh, to process signals so they could look at, look at it,
[42:29.540 --> 42:31.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: rather than just necessarily listen to it.
[42:31.340 --> 42:39.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not, I know I'm not doing the description justice, but I think the consistent thing with people is, okay, great, I got my license and I got my initial radio, what next?
[42:40.000 --> 42:43.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: How can I get deeper into this and make it, and make a sound investment?
[42:43.460 --> 42:48.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, one, one thing, uh, this conference definitely, there was a radio, uh, a theme of various sorts.
[42:49.140 --> 42:54.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was, uh, the ham radio, Internet radio, the Prometheus radio, people were there.
[42:54.740 --> 43:00.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, of course, there's off the hook, uh, uh, talk of off the hook, and of course, talk of the conference on off the hook, there's radio Statler.
[43:00.840 --> 43:04.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, so radio plays a big part in, in the hacker world in various forms.
[43:05.580 --> 43:06.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, well, thank you very much.
[43:06.980 --> 43:07.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just wanted to mention that.
[43:07.800 --> 43:08.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have a great night, everyone.
[43:08.540 --> 43:09.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, and thanks.
[43:09.660 --> 43:10.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for your call there.
[43:10.640 --> 43:11.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: And Kyle, welcome.
[43:11.760 --> 43:13.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: You, you, you, you made it.
[43:13.600 --> 43:14.100]  Yeah, I'm here.
[43:14.180 --> 43:14.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, wait a minute.
[43:14.600 --> 43:14.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hold on.
[43:14.840 --> 43:15.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Your mic isn't.
[43:15.340 --> 43:15.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Say that again.
[43:16.900 --> 43:17.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I'm here.
[43:17.620 --> 43:18.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ah, there you are.
[43:18.140 --> 43:18.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, good, good.
[43:18.940 --> 43:26.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, uh, we basically parted ways uptown, and I went by car, and you went by MTA, and, uh... Well, I think we had a bet going to see who, who could get here sooner.
[43:26.680 --> 43:31.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: It wasn't a bet so much as me saying, you know what, I think you're going to get here before I do, the way things are going.
[43:31.560 --> 43:39.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was really a disaster out there, but, uh, and apparently it was more of a disaster underground, or, or maybe, well, you were just over at Zuccotti, you were at Zuccotti Park, weren't you?
[43:39.200 --> 43:40.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: You were strolling around.
[43:40.300 --> 43:45.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I was walking around over there, but I sort of stopped trying to hurry and just sort of moseyed.
[43:46.240 --> 43:53.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And isn't there a lesson that we can all learn from that, uh, to just stop with the hustle and bustle just for a minute and, and smell the flowers?
[43:53.920 --> 43:58.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we were in a lot of traffic and it was like really, really stressful earlier, so... It was very stressful.
[43:58.440 --> 44:00.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think I needed to just, uh, relax a little bit.
[44:00.960 --> 44:04.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was shouting things out the window at various people, but you know what?
[44:04.400 --> 44:06.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't regret any of that because they sure deserved it.
[44:07.280 --> 44:19.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, you know, if you're at an intersection and a bus blocks you for the entire green light and then another bus blocks you and the stupid traffic cop keeps waving the buses in front of you and won't let you go, you know, any word that you can come up with is certainly worthy of that situation.
[44:20.160 --> 44:23.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, and yet I work in Brooklyn and I got here with time to spare.
[44:23.740 --> 44:27.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you use the, the, the flying machine you have.
[44:27.500 --> 44:30.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I used to work on Long Island and I got here with time to spare.
[44:31.420 --> 44:34.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it's, it's difficult, especially when it rains for some reason.
[44:34.820 --> 44:36.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[44:36.600 --> 44:36.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[44:37.040 --> 44:37.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on off the hook.
[44:38.660 --> 44:39.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, good evening.
[44:39.120 --> 44:39.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, how are you?
[44:39.700 --> 44:48.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just called in, uh, just to actually speak about Google Fiber and, you know, just to know if you had heard about DEFCON and, you know, any insight about that.
[44:48.920 --> 44:53.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wait, what, uh, what, what subject exactly do you want us to talk about?
[44:54.080 --> 44:56.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, actually about the Google Fiber rollout in Kansas City.
[44:57.060 --> 44:59.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Google Fiber robot in Kansas City?
[44:59.220 --> 44:59.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, rollout.
[45:00.400 --> 45:00.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Rollout.
[45:01.000 --> 45:02.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, uh, okay.
[45:02.620 --> 45:03.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, Bernie, you want to talk about that?
[45:04.460 --> 45:11.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, from what I've read off the top of my head, uh, Google is, is, uh, is going into, is becoming an ISP in certain test markets.
[45:11.980 --> 45:20.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: They're rolling out insanely fast fiber optic to the home service that's, uh, like gigabit.
[45:20.240 --> 45:28.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can get gigabit or multi-gigabit second speeds for a fraction of what cable companies, uh, and phone companies are charging.
[45:28.740 --> 45:34.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's like, it's like $75 a month, I think, uh, or like between 75 and like 90.
[45:34.480 --> 45:39.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know exactly what I'm, if I'm remembering correctly and that's for the gigabit, um, uplink.
[45:39.680 --> 45:44.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then they have also an option where you pay one time, like a one time setup fee.
[45:44.400 --> 45:46.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's like $300 or $200.
[45:47.100 --> 45:53.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, and you basically get, um, like megabit speeds, like, like five or 10 megabits.
[45:53.580 --> 45:55.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And like, there's no monthly fee after that.
[45:55.960 --> 45:59.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: You just pay once and then you get like DSL type speeds for the rest of your life.
[45:59.700 --> 46:03.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, it's guaranteed for seven years, I guess, from the article I read.
[46:03.540 --> 46:15.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: So the, I don't know what the, uh, startup cost is for the, the monthly price I said over for gigabit, but it was pretty interesting that if you couldn't do the full gigabit monthly thing, if you just come up with 300 bucks, like they'll set it up and you get,
[46:15.920 --> 46:21.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: you know, five or 10 megabits for the guaranteed, uh, run of the trial.
[46:21.800 --> 46:30.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: If this is a Google service, then I'd be very interested in knowing what the terms are and how they would use any information they gathered about you, um, in the manner that Google does when you use their, uh, services.
[46:31.160 --> 46:31.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, they're very nosy.
[46:31.980 --> 46:33.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: They look into everything you do.
[46:33.380 --> 46:44.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know that, that, that was my interesting thing to ask was, you know, like since if they're going to try to become an ISP and subsidize, I guess, you know, one of your members said, like, it is going to be free for one level, uh, free service.
[46:44.840 --> 46:54.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just wonder, like, and what would happen if trend were to, you know, go, you know, give up, I guess, you know, your information and they'll provide you the ISP, you know, I wonder, you know, things like that.
[46:54.780 --> 46:59.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know, you know, we need to talk about a lot of security and, uh, privacy.
[46:59.940 --> 47:05.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't feel like Time Warner, which is my Internet provider, has my privacy in, uh, high regard.
[47:05.780 --> 47:11.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: They may be, like, too incompetent to do anything really evil, but, uh, I don't want to rely on that.
[47:12.620 --> 47:13.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[47:13.120 --> 47:13.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for that call.
[47:14.040 --> 47:14.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[47:14.320 --> 47:14.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[47:15.500 --> 47:16.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[47:16.960 --> 47:17.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Taking phone calls tonight.
[47:17.920 --> 47:24.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, after a few weeks of not taking phone calls, talking about the Hope Conference, technology, uh, what's going on in the mass media, various things like that.
[47:24.540 --> 47:24.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[47:24.880 --> 47:25.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[47:26.100 --> 47:26.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[47:26.620 --> 47:32.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry if, uh, this has already been talked about, but while we're on the subject of Google, what about Google Voice now?
[47:33.040 --> 47:40.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: With, uh, an ATA, you can hook up to Google Voice and have a landline through your broadband connection, uh, at zero cost.
[47:40.780 --> 47:42.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was wondering what your opinion would be of that.
[47:43.820 --> 47:46.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: That, that would be, uh, VoIP, which isn't quite the same as a landline.
[47:47.080 --> 47:48.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, it's still, uh, it's still Internet data.
[47:48.860 --> 48:03.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Your voice is, uh, converted to digital data and streamed over the Internet as opposed to the, uh, trusty old phone system that is, uh, that would, uh, that would actually connect your, your phone to, uh, to telephone company equipment, which would eventually connect to the other person.
[48:04.220 --> 48:08.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, yeah, it's, uh, there are, there are many VoIP services out there.
[48:08.280 --> 48:09.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: They've all got their pros and cons.
[48:09.940 --> 48:12.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, um, yeah, they exist.
[48:13.000 --> 48:21.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, with the idea that Google, uh, Google Fiber is trying to become an ISP, I wonder if Google Voice is trying to be a telephone company.
[48:22.140 --> 48:23.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: That would, that would be very interesting.
[48:23.960 --> 48:30.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: I know you can already, uh, I think you can already get, uh, yeah, you can already get phone numbers through, uh, Google that will go to your Google Voice.
[48:30.380 --> 48:34.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, a couple other VoIP providers, I think, also have telephone numbers available.
[48:34.300 --> 48:36.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, yeah, they're all sort of tying into everything they can, I think.
[48:42.140 --> 48:46.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's a good idea if you want to get away from the regular landline, but...
[48:46.180 --> 48:48.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why does everybody want to get away from the regular landline?
[48:48.800 --> 48:50.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the thing I don't get, you know?
[48:51.400 --> 48:53.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's so bad about a regular landline?
[48:53.160 --> 48:56.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: It costs tens of dollars a month, and I don't use it very much.
[48:57.440 --> 49:00.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, yeah, some things might be worth it, I think.
[49:00.840 --> 49:01.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead, Carla.
[49:03.360 --> 49:04.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, go ahead, Kyle, then.
[49:04.600 --> 49:05.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You get dial tone.
[49:06.080 --> 49:06.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[49:06.460 --> 49:07.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you get a real dial tone.
[49:07.200 --> 49:08.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know if you get dial tone with Google Voice.
[49:08.920 --> 49:09.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not sure about that either.
[49:09.940 --> 49:13.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: By the way, I should point out, since you're here now, we did a little survey before.
[49:13.640 --> 49:17.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: It turns out I'm the only one amongst everybody on the show tonight that has an actual landline in use.
[49:18.360 --> 49:21.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now there's somebody else in the studio that has a landline in use, correct?
[49:21.300 --> 49:22.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I still use a landline.
[49:22.680 --> 49:23.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, so there you go.
[49:23.780 --> 49:28.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: The thing about VoIP and the big drawback as compared to a landline is that you still need the Internet connection.
[49:28.880 --> 49:31.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: You still need that infrastructure between you.
[49:31.220 --> 49:36.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: So if your electricity goes out and you can't use your computer, you can't hook up to your modem, you can't use your VoIP.
[49:37.220 --> 49:42.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: When I have fond memories as a kid of the electricity going out and picking up the phone and still hearing a dial turn.
[49:42.520 --> 49:43.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: How about this?
[49:43.180 --> 49:47.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the middle of the night, Cablevision tells you, oh yeah, we're going down for four hours for maintenance.
[49:48.080 --> 49:51.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: When's the last time the phone company went down for maintenance for a landline?
[49:51.660 --> 49:52.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I don't recall that.
[49:52.400 --> 49:53.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I still have a mobile also.
[49:53.480 --> 49:53.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry?
[49:54.320 --> 49:57.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I still have a mobile phone, though, of my own, personal.
[49:57.640 --> 49:59.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, is that supposed to make us feel better?
[49:59.320 --> 50:00.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think it does.
[50:00.680 --> 50:01.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, that's just the backup.
[50:01.560 --> 50:03.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, it's a backup, true.
[50:03.380 --> 50:09.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, you know, again, then you're dependent on antenna strength and all kinds of other things that mobile phones bring you.
[50:09.740 --> 50:15.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, I used to work in an office in Manhattan where the landlines went down every time it rained.
[50:15.540 --> 50:21.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I don't want to ballyhoo the reliability of the landline service too much.
[50:21.200 --> 50:28.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, growing up and living out a full life, I can count the number of times landlines have gone out on a single hand.
[50:29.340 --> 50:31.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Evidently, you didn't grow up in Chinatown.
[50:31.000 --> 50:32.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess not.
[50:32.960 --> 50:34.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's one thing I'll have to wonder about.
[50:35.120 --> 50:37.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you do have a landline, you're guaranteed a path, though.
[50:37.560 --> 50:42.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think there's more things that you're responsible for when you set up ATAs and numbers like that with VoIP.
[50:42.840 --> 50:43.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: ATAs?
[50:43.260 --> 50:44.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't even know.
[50:45.560 --> 50:47.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's all these acronyms.
[50:47.360 --> 50:53.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to string together different services to set up VoIP, unless it's run through Google Voice or something.
[50:54.100 --> 51:00.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I feel like you're responsible for much more instead of the entire phone system failing, then it's not really your fault.
[51:00.840 --> 51:08.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And as long as it's getting into your premises and your trusty landline phone still rings, you're pretty much guaranteed the service.
[51:08.440 --> 51:15.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's really handy if you ever want to pick up the phone and really have someone's ear and make a point or to talk to them.
[51:15.940 --> 51:20.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: I feel like you aren't taking it seriously like if you're on a cruddy cell phone or something.
[51:20.740 --> 51:26.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you're on a cell phone, so many times this has happened to me where you're talking and the other person is still talking and they can't hear it.
[51:26.460 --> 51:30.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're trying to say, oh, by the way, being pulled over by cops now, we can't really talk on the cell phone.
[51:30.560 --> 51:32.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: They just keep yammering on.
[51:32.180 --> 51:32.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[51:32.620 --> 51:36.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then they get upset when you just disconnect because there's nothing more you can do.
[51:36.260 --> 51:43.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or there's noise in the background that gets filtered out of the cell phone, which sometimes is good if there's a siren going by or something like that.
[51:43.460 --> 51:47.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: But sometimes it's noise you want the person to be able to hear and it just gets filtered out.
[51:47.200 --> 51:48.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not so on a landline.
[51:49.440 --> 51:49.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely.
[51:50.160 --> 51:50.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[51:50.440 --> 51:52.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[51:52.980 --> 51:53.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's our landline.
[51:54.160 --> 51:54.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's right.
[51:55.000 --> 51:56.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have a landline here as well.
[51:56.980 --> 51:59.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is our landline real or is it void?
[51:59.220 --> 51:59.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Does anybody know?
[52:00.360 --> 52:01.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's digital of some sort.
[52:02.040 --> 52:02.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know if it's a...
[52:02.440 --> 52:03.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: But everything's digital.
[52:03.100 --> 52:07.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know if it's a T1 circuit or an ISDN circuit or what exactly.
[52:07.360 --> 52:08.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you know, you hear this?
[52:10.320 --> 52:14.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can buy you a computer chip that will make that noise for like pennies.
[52:14.300 --> 52:15.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but I think this is real.
[52:15.220 --> 52:16.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think this is a real dial tone.
[52:16.640 --> 52:17.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is real anymore?
[52:17.740 --> 52:18.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: It means something.
[52:18.680 --> 52:19.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's a real dial tone?
[52:19.380 --> 52:20.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's all computer generated.
[52:20.820 --> 52:22.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if it's only drug-induced conversations about what is real.
[52:22.820 --> 52:24.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, that's a real dial tone, okay?
[52:24.840 --> 52:27.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you can dial on it and all kinds of things will happen.
[52:27.740 --> 52:32.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm telling you, you can download Asterisk and install it on your computer and it will make that noise for free.
[52:32.420 --> 52:33.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: It'll make the noise, but it won't act the same.
[52:33.560 --> 52:34.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry, Bernie, what did you have to say?
[52:34.740 --> 52:40.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, if you press zero and see what happens, are you going to get a Verizon operator?
[52:40.860 --> 52:43.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I think you might get a WBAI operator because...
[52:43.120 --> 52:44.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, then that's the problem.
[52:44.420 --> 52:45.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a PBX, you know?
[52:46.120 --> 52:47.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's still a landline.
[52:47.740 --> 52:49.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if it's a PBX...
[52:49.160 --> 52:54.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not a local exchange carrier dial tone that you were just playing over the air.
[52:54.660 --> 52:55.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, fine.
[52:55.200 --> 52:58.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's still closer than the things that people are playing on their computers.
[52:59.640 --> 53:00.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, you're funny.
[53:01.120 --> 53:01.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you.
[53:01.780 --> 53:02.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[53:02.300 --> 53:03.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[53:03.240 --> 53:03.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[53:04.360 --> 53:05.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, guys.
[53:05.420 --> 53:06.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you?
[53:06.720 --> 53:07.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're good.
[53:07.380 --> 53:08.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: What are you, drilling something there?
[53:08.780 --> 53:12.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, I got a UHF radio that's opening.
[53:12.600 --> 53:12.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, okay.
[53:12.740 --> 53:13.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Two things.
[53:13.680 --> 53:24.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't play with Google Voice or get Internet from Google because they're going to monitor every packet and listen to your conversations and check everybody you're talking to, typing to on what site you're going to.
[53:24.740 --> 53:25.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the first thing.
[53:26.520 --> 53:31.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Second, there's really no thing as a POTS line anymore.
[53:31.080 --> 53:35.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: or, you know, private operator, you know, plain old telephone service.
[53:35.540 --> 53:35.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[53:37.040 --> 53:39.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: You say there's no such thing as a POTS line.
[53:39.720 --> 53:40.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[53:40.360 --> 53:48.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the closest thing to that is Verizon, not Verizon, is Time Warner because they basically connect to AT&T switch.
[53:49.260 --> 53:52.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: They take their call digitally over the co-act.
[53:52.480 --> 53:53.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: They don't even go over the Internet.
[53:53.780 --> 53:55.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're not really an Internet provider.
[53:55.420 --> 53:57.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: They go right from their modem to there.
[53:58.040 --> 54:06.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: And all of these companies, except for Verizon, where you have a plain old phone line, the dial tone is generated in your location.
[54:06.980 --> 54:10.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Verizon generates the tone, the dial tone at the site.
[54:10.260 --> 54:13.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it sounds like Verizon is then plain old telephone service.
[54:13.500 --> 54:17.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but all your dial tones are 340 and 480, whatever it is.
[54:17.840 --> 54:18.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's the frequency.
[54:18.740 --> 54:18.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[54:19.340 --> 54:19.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[54:19.780 --> 54:20.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's standardized.
[54:20.960 --> 54:22.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: So everything today is generated.
[54:22.680 --> 54:24.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing is generated long distance.
[54:24.320 --> 54:26.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Even your ring is locally generated.
[54:26.860 --> 54:27.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's true.
[54:27.380 --> 54:34.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ever since things went digital, I mean, a mechanical switch, you'd be actually hearing what's inside the central office.
[54:34.700 --> 54:53.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think the distinction that's being made is whether it's telephone company equipment that's creating the dial tone versus a machine that you've set up that's generating it or some website that's doing, like, processing it and generating it on the client side with a bunch of software.
[54:53.240 --> 55:03.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, if you go to the HOPE site and get the old-school phreaking panel, you can hear some recordings of great old noises that the telephone system used to make back in the analog days that were strictly analog.
[55:04.120 --> 55:05.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's up on our site?
[55:05.200 --> 55:06.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: That, that, the audio should be up.
[55:07.020 --> 55:07.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was one of our talks.
[55:08.040 --> 55:08.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, great.
[55:09.000 --> 55:09.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's right.
[55:09.520 --> 55:09.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[55:09.840 --> 55:10.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was one of our talks.
[55:11.000 --> 55:11.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[55:11.280 --> 55:15.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a distinct Friday night at the City Court building and where is it exactly?
[55:16.520 --> 55:20.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: The City Group building is at the corner of 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue.
[55:20.720 --> 55:23.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can get to it from Lexington Subway Station.
[55:23.000 --> 55:23.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's right upstairs.
[55:24.300 --> 55:25.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is it downstairs?
[55:25.620 --> 55:28.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it's up, it's the building in New York City with the...
[55:28.140 --> 55:29.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know that, but where's the meeting?
[55:29.580 --> 55:30.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's in the lobby area.
[55:30.880 --> 55:33.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, in the lobby where you walk right in there's a big food court area.
[55:33.720 --> 55:37.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: And just look, all the security guards are looking at us, so just, if you see the eyes of one of them...
[55:37.620 --> 55:38.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: What time is it?
[55:38.440 --> 55:39.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: From 5 to 8.
[55:39.860 --> 55:40.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, around 5.
[55:40.460 --> 55:41.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: People drift in and out.
[55:41.700 --> 55:42.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not a formal meeting.
[55:42.780 --> 55:48.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: People just basically talk to whomever they feel like talking to and just feel free to come and ask a bunch of questions.
[55:49.940 --> 55:54.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, guys, but it's really interesting and it's...
[55:54.040 --> 55:57.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, the plain old telephone lines is most reliable.
[55:57.580 --> 56:02.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, when the next big one happens, I think we would rather have the old-fashioned stuff.
[56:03.200 --> 56:09.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, well, maybe people will realize that someday, that there's good in some things that are old-fashioned.
[56:09.860 --> 56:15.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's going to just about do it for us tonight because we're pretty much out of time, but it was good hearing from our listeners again.
[56:15.040 --> 56:19.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: We haven't heard from them except with their checkbooks and credit card numbers in the last three weeks.
[56:19.900 --> 56:24.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it was good to see a lot of you at the HOPE Conference and good to hear your feedback.
[56:24.920 --> 56:30.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you want to give us more feedback, write to us at hope at hope.net.
[56:30.940 --> 56:32.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Feedback on the HOPE Conference, that is.
[56:32.340 --> 56:42.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tell us what you did, fun things that you might have experienced, suggestions for the future, various things like that.
[56:42.800 --> 56:43.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'd love to hear from you.
[56:44.300 --> 56:50.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you want to write to us here at the radio station, oth@2600.com is our email address for that.
[56:50.800 --> 56:58.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, if you went to the conference and you want to share like a blog post you made or photos you took or things like that of the conference, send us those too.
[56:58.840 --> 57:00.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'd love to see them, hope at hope.net.
[57:00.320 --> 57:00.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[57:00.700 --> 57:01.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're still recovering.
[57:01.760 --> 57:07.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're still basically getting things back in working order, but all the videos are done.
[57:07.340 --> 57:11.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And Kyle, you were mostly responsible for making sure they all got done quickly.
[57:15.440 --> 57:17.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that guy is simply amazing.
[57:17.220 --> 57:22.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Our AV department for making this the best sounding conference, best looking conference I think we've ever had.
[57:22.840 --> 57:29.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And of course, all the speakers who came and talked about some really interesting, enlightening topics.
[57:29.740 --> 57:34.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can listen to all the talks again at www.hope.net.
[57:34.580 --> 57:36.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're all available online for free.
[57:36.780 --> 57:38.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And videos are also available.
[57:38.680 --> 57:41.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go to www.2600.com for information on that.
[57:41.980 --> 57:43.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's going to do it for us here tonight.
[57:45.820 --> 57:47.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see you next week.
[57:58.800 --> 57:59.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: See you next week.