[00:00.000 --> 00:00.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey there, friends.
[00:01.160 --> 00:03.240] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Armand DeMille with you with The Positive Mind.
[00:03.500 --> 00:04.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Help us with our recovery.
[00:05.240 --> 00:09.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Go to WBAI.org and help us by joining the buddy system.
[00:09.480 --> 00:15.980] [SPEAKER_00]: The more people we have on a recurrent basis giving money to the station, the less we'll have to have fund drives.
[00:16.320 --> 00:20.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Help us cut down on those and we'll do what we can for you.
[00:21.600 --> 00:22.680] [SPEAKER_00]: WBAI.org.
[00:23.040 --> 00:23.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Buddy.
[00:24.200 --> 00:25.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Make a difference.
[00:26.180 --> 00:29.120] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:29.300 --> 00:33.960] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just about 7 o'clock on a Wednesday night time once again for Off The Hook.
[01:57.400 --> 01:58.960] [SPEAKER_01]: And the very good evening to everybody.
[01:59.040 --> 02:00.260] [SPEAKER_01]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:00.580 --> 02:03.120] [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:03.280 --> 02:04.720] [SPEAKER_01]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:05.080 --> 02:05.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:05.900 --> 02:06.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob T.
[02:06.340 --> 02:06.800] [SPEAKER_01]: Firefly.
[02:07.040 --> 02:07.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:07.640 --> 02:07.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle.
[02:08.440 --> 02:08.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, dudes.
[02:09.200 --> 02:10.360] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back from Seattle.
[02:10.660 --> 02:11.520] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel welcome.
[02:11.840 --> 02:13.020] [SPEAKER_01]: And Bernie S.
[02:13.120 --> 02:15.020] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere in Pennsylvania, I believe.
[02:15.320 --> 02:17.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Greetings from northeastern Pennsylvania.
[02:17.520 --> 02:17.920] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[02:18.120 --> 02:21.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, did everybody have a happy and productive April 1st, I hope?
[02:22.420 --> 02:23.300] [SPEAKER_01]: No fooling.
[02:23.300 --> 02:24.620] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we sure did.
[02:24.980 --> 02:37.800] [SPEAKER_01]: We made an announcement yesterday concerning the upcoming Hope X conference in July here in New York City that we have a very special keynote speaker, a true hero to America, a household word.
[02:38.060 --> 02:40.020] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been promoting this for the last few days.
[02:40.140 --> 02:44.860] [SPEAKER_01]: And yesterday we announced that, in fact, yes, Sarah Palin will be the keynote speaker at Hope X.
[02:45.820 --> 02:51.920] [SPEAKER_01]: And we basically gave out some reasons why we thought Sarah would be perfect for this.
[02:52.180 --> 02:58.740] [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, there are still some people out there who don't see the strong connection between the hacker community and Sarah Palin.
[02:59.680 --> 03:04.160] [SPEAKER_01]: And, well, we had a few things on our website, which got quite a number of visits and comments.
[03:04.800 --> 03:10.780] [SPEAKER_01]: We mentioned, in fact, that hackers have been battling representatives of national intelligence in the fight for more transparency.
[03:10.780 --> 03:14.920] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, Sarah Palin has been battling intelligence throughout her entire history.
[03:15.460 --> 03:17.100] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have that.
[03:17.620 --> 03:28.400] [SPEAKER_01]: We have the fact that hackers have been trying to overcome the tarnishing of our image, our name, by none other than Francis Packer.
[03:28.540 --> 03:35.780] [SPEAKER_01]: He's the guy that was somewhat responsible for the execution of King Charles way back a number of decades ago, quite a number.
[03:35.780 --> 03:37.980] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've been battling that all the time.
[03:38.120 --> 03:41.120] [SPEAKER_01]: People seem to think that hackers exist just to execute kings.
[03:41.300 --> 03:43.280] [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, that's not that far up on the agenda.
[03:43.820 --> 03:54.540] [SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, Sarah Palin, of course, has had to battle Michael Palin, the comedian who has tarnished her name and has made many people think that this is just a Monty Python sketch, which we can assure you she is not.
[03:54.840 --> 03:56.440] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, I'm not a huge fan of kings.
[03:57.760 --> 04:00.800] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, then I guess it would be higher up on your list.
[04:00.980 --> 04:02.200] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it's not like at the top.
[04:02.360 --> 04:04.900] [SPEAKER_09]: It's certainly not executions, but, you know, it's on the list.
[04:04.900 --> 04:07.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what you call people who push for this type of thing?
[04:08.060 --> 04:08.340] [SPEAKER_09]: I do.
[04:08.520 --> 04:08.880] [SPEAKER_09]: Republicans.
[04:09.100 --> 04:09.960] [SPEAKER_01]: No, regicide.
[04:10.620 --> 04:11.860] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right.
[04:12.220 --> 04:13.540] [SPEAKER_09]: No, no, that's not my thing.
[04:13.640 --> 04:16.780] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's what Francis Hacker was, was a regicide.
[04:17.040 --> 04:17.280] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh.
[04:17.920 --> 04:18.680] [SPEAKER_01]: I learned that.
[04:18.820 --> 04:22.120] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that's a thing he did rather than a thing he is, but...
[04:22.120 --> 04:23.000] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was anyway.
[04:23.200 --> 04:25.400] [SPEAKER_01]: He actually got executed later for doing this.
[04:25.600 --> 04:27.220] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of execution going on back then.
[04:27.380 --> 04:27.880] [SPEAKER_02]: That'll teach him.
[04:27.880 --> 04:37.480] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, we also had the fact that both Hacker and Palin are two-syllable words with the same second letter and a total of two vowels, and they both are sort of pronounced in the same rhythm.
[04:37.660 --> 04:39.400] [SPEAKER_01]: Hacker, Palin, you know, things like that.
[04:39.460 --> 04:40.560] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of connections.
[04:41.280 --> 04:44.980] [SPEAKER_01]: And, well, I'm sorry to say, folks, it was an April Fool's joke.
[04:45.160 --> 04:51.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah Palin will not be giving the keynote speech or any keynote speech at our conference, not that I know of.
[04:51.220 --> 05:00.160] [SPEAKER_01]: And, in fact, I guess this is also to inform her that she should not be booking her travel arrangements now because she might have fallen for it as well.
[05:00.900 --> 05:05.760] [SPEAKER_01]: So we will be announcing, though, our real keynote speaker, one of our real keynote speakers later this week.
[05:05.880 --> 05:08.140] [SPEAKER_01]: And, in fact, the description holds.
[05:08.720 --> 05:10.260] [SPEAKER_01]: American hero, household word.
[05:10.420 --> 05:12.520] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so keep guessing who it might be.
[05:12.940 --> 05:14.540] [SPEAKER_01]: And we will be happy to announce that.
[05:14.580 --> 05:16.320] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's coming out tomorrow, actually.
[05:16.320 --> 05:23.800] [SPEAKER_01]: So exciting things happening in the world of HOPE, Hackers on Planet Earth Conference, coming up July 18th through 20th.
[05:24.320 --> 05:39.900] [SPEAKER_01]: And, again, if you feel you have something of interest to share with a few thousand hackers, some kind of a talk or a panel or anything like that, a special project, basically we can do almost anything.
[05:39.900 --> 05:41.140] [SPEAKER_01]: So please write to us.
[05:41.140 --> 05:43.660] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you have an idea for a talk, speakers at hope.net.
[05:43.900 --> 05:46.840] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have an idea for a project, projects at hope.net.
[05:47.060 --> 05:51.700] [SPEAKER_01]: If you just want to volunteer and help out in various ways, volunteer at hope.net.
[05:51.840 --> 05:52.860] [SPEAKER_01]: So all kinds of things.
[05:52.960 --> 05:53.900] [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, anything you want to add to that?
[05:54.420 --> 05:57.460] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I did want to say to our audience that they can...
[05:58.920 --> 06:04.460] [SPEAKER_06]: The HOPE X Conference will be happening July 18th through the 21st at Hotel Pennsylvania.
[06:04.700 --> 06:05.100] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me correct you.
[06:05.160 --> 06:06.140] [SPEAKER_01]: July 18th through 20th.
[06:07.040 --> 06:08.060] [SPEAKER_01]: 21st is Recovery Day.
[06:08.140 --> 06:08.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's right.
[06:08.500 --> 06:10.480] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'll probably be there until the 21st cleaning up.
[06:10.480 --> 06:12.480] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you'll be there until the 23rd cleaning up, Bernie.
[06:12.600 --> 06:14.300] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you got the alert on that.
[06:14.660 --> 06:20.720] [SPEAKER_06]: And back to Sarah Palin, this wouldn't be the first time that she has fallen for a roost by a satirical radio host.
[06:21.660 --> 06:23.080] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm not sure I'm satirical.
[06:23.480 --> 06:24.880] [SPEAKER_01]: I really would like her to show up.
[06:25.160 --> 06:27.760] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be an amazing occurrence.
[06:29.100 --> 06:30.760] [SPEAKER_01]: But what did she fall for in the past?
[06:30.760 --> 06:43.660] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, there was that, I think it was a French-Canadian radio station called, radio station, morning show guy, funny guy, called her posing as the French prime minister.
[06:43.980 --> 06:47.920] [SPEAKER_06]: And aired their conversation for like 15, 20 minutes.
[06:48.040 --> 06:49.100] [SPEAKER_06]: And she totally fell for it.
[06:49.200 --> 06:51.480] [SPEAKER_06]: And then he started asking really silly questions.
[06:51.480 --> 06:53.100] [SPEAKER_06]: And then she realized she'd been had.
[06:54.780 --> 06:58.480] [SPEAKER_01]: I think she tried to blame it on one of her staff, I think.
[06:58.700 --> 06:59.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, exactly.
[07:00.360 --> 07:00.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well.
[07:01.080 --> 07:03.280] [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, it was a good April Fool joke.
[07:03.400 --> 07:04.460] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was brilliant.
[07:04.600 --> 07:05.300] [SPEAKER_01]: It was all in good fun.
[07:05.300 --> 07:13.240] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had a number of tweets going out, too, on the HelpX Twitter feed that I believe got some attention and some confusion out there.
[07:13.800 --> 07:15.120] [SPEAKER_01]: Once a year, we get to confuse...
[07:15.120 --> 07:16.500] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, we confuse people more than once a year.
[07:16.640 --> 07:18.200] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's all in good fun.
[07:18.260 --> 07:21.760] [SPEAKER_09]: I was going to say our non-April 1st tweets confuse people enough.
[07:22.080 --> 07:22.320] [SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.
[07:22.480 --> 07:22.940] [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[07:23.100 --> 07:23.520] [SPEAKER_09]: That's true.
[07:23.680 --> 07:25.480] [SPEAKER_02]: But for one day a year, we get to do it on purpose.
[07:26.280 --> 07:26.560] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[07:26.780 --> 07:29.040] [SPEAKER_02]: I should point out, though, that everyone is welcome at Hope.
[07:29.200 --> 07:33.420] [SPEAKER_02]: So, Sarah Palin, if you're listening, you can attend the Hope Conference, but you're going to have to pay for your ticket.
[07:33.740 --> 07:34.180] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
[07:34.360 --> 07:37.180] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not trying to isolate people or make fun of them.
[07:37.300 --> 07:38.540] [SPEAKER_01]: We make fun of all kinds of people.
[07:38.620 --> 07:39.300] [SPEAKER_01]: They make fun of us.
[07:39.340 --> 07:40.340] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just how it works.
[07:40.440 --> 07:41.280] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, she showed up.
[07:41.680 --> 07:43.340] [SPEAKER_01]: She'd be welcome just like anybody else.
[07:44.440 --> 07:44.820] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[07:45.020 --> 07:53.080] [SPEAKER_01]: We have tonight rather an interesting program, a bit of a departure from what we usually do here on Off The Hook, where we talk about technology and hackers.
[08:18.740 --> 08:23.060] [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to talk about that a little bit.
[08:23.060 --> 08:24.400] [SPEAKER_01]: And many of our listeners may not know this.
[08:24.500 --> 08:26.120] [SPEAKER_01]: They might just listen to Off The Hook on WBAI.
[08:26.200 --> 08:29.200] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, WBAI is part of a family of five radio stations.
[08:29.380 --> 08:33.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, if you count translators and simulcasters, a few more.
[08:33.260 --> 08:36.860] [SPEAKER_01]: But for all intents and purposes, you have WBAI in New York.
[08:37.000 --> 08:38.740] [SPEAKER_01]: You have WPFW in Washington, D.C.
[08:38.740 --> 08:44.280] [SPEAKER_01]: You have KPFK in Los Angeles, KPFA in Berkeley, and KPFT in Houston.
[08:44.480 --> 08:47.800] [SPEAKER_01]: And those are the five stations that make up the Pacifica network.
[08:47.820 --> 08:55.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, a lot more stations air Pacifica programs, but those are the five owned and operated stations part of the Pacifica Foundation.
[08:55.220 --> 09:03.700] [SPEAKER_01]: And the Pacifica Foundation was founded a long time ago, I think 1949, well before WBAI existed, by Lou Hill.
[09:04.740 --> 09:11.860] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's basically been the inspiration for all non-commercial radio stations since then.
[09:11.980 --> 09:12.800] [SPEAKER_01]: We invented.
[09:12.800 --> 09:14.900] [SPEAKER_01]: We invented begging for money on the air.
[09:15.060 --> 09:20.280] [SPEAKER_01]: It's something I'm not sure how proud we want to be about, but we were the first radio network to do that.
[09:20.280 --> 09:21.880] [SPEAKER_01]: And it worked fabulously.
[09:22.020 --> 09:26.300] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it's worked so well that we're still here in 2014.
[09:27.000 --> 09:33.160] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've gotten here by not raising corporate money, not having underwriting, not having commercials.
[09:33.640 --> 09:34.820] [SPEAKER_01]: And that says something.
[09:34.980 --> 09:44.060] [SPEAKER_01]: So you might hear a lot about how crazy it all is, what a huge challenge it is to run WBAI, to run Pacifica, how it's all falling apart.
[09:44.060 --> 09:50.380] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you look at it, this place has survived, and a lot of commercial entities have not.
[09:50.760 --> 09:52.260] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's a struggle.
[09:52.420 --> 09:52.820] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard.
[09:52.920 --> 09:53.400] [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.
[09:53.420 --> 09:57.300] [SPEAKER_01]: But it does work, and it can work, despite ourselves.
[09:57.960 --> 10:05.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I wanted to add that because it's such a unique resource and it's such a different model, it attracts a lot of people, right?
[10:05.060 --> 10:05.900] [SPEAKER_10]: It's a cool thing.
[10:06.060 --> 10:12.540] [SPEAKER_10]: It's a really important thing to have a voice, as we've often said during phone drives and stuff, in the middle of the dial here in New York City.
[10:12.780 --> 10:14.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Huge audience, tri-state area.
[10:14.320 --> 10:18.800] [SPEAKER_10]: All of that is fantastically important, and a lot of people want to have access to that.
[10:19.200 --> 10:24.180] [SPEAKER_10]: And so WBAI and other members of the Pacifica network attract a really diverse group of people.
[10:24.180 --> 10:33.240] [SPEAKER_10]: And part of making it work is all of those people being able to get along in one way or another, and the institution can move ahead.
[10:33.960 --> 10:41.500] [SPEAKER_10]: And when you have all kinds of different people, you have to come up with processes and ways to make decisions, how to move forward.
[10:41.660 --> 10:51.140] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's kind of been something that's changed and had different formats throughout the history, as far as I know, of Pacifica and WBAI alike.
[10:51.140 --> 10:59.480] [SPEAKER_10]: So I think we're going to get a little bit more insight into where that stands now and how that's kind of led us to where we're at with the network and the station itself.
[10:59.680 --> 11:02.660] [SPEAKER_01]: We've had all kinds of people on these airwaves.
[11:02.760 --> 11:03.600] [SPEAKER_01]: We've had Bob Dylan.
[11:03.600 --> 11:04.740] [SPEAKER_01]: We've had William F.
[11:04.860 --> 11:05.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Buckley.
[11:05.460 --> 11:06.600] [SPEAKER_01]: We've had Allen Ginsberg.
[11:07.000 --> 11:16.420] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, even Bill Clinton was called in to our radio station once and had the misfortune of being queried by Amy Goodman and couldn't get off the phone for a long, long time.
[11:16.420 --> 11:19.020] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the kind of thing that happens at a radio station like this.
[11:19.120 --> 11:19.600] [SPEAKER_09]: George Carlin.
[11:19.880 --> 11:20.620] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, George Carlin.
[11:20.620 --> 11:23.020] [SPEAKER_09]: Are you telling me Bill Clinton doesn't know how to, like, hang up the phone?
[11:23.340 --> 11:24.760] [SPEAKER_01]: He has somebody to do that for him.
[11:25.320 --> 11:27.040] [SPEAKER_09]: He can't, like, signal to that person?
[11:27.060 --> 11:27.580] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, think about it.
[11:27.640 --> 11:29.700] [SPEAKER_01]: He was president of the United States at that time.
[11:29.820 --> 11:33.200] [SPEAKER_01]: For the president of the United States to hang up on somebody, that's a headline right there.
[11:33.200 --> 11:34.220] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he wanted to do that.
[11:34.220 --> 11:36.460] [SPEAKER_01]: Not on Election Day, which is when he was making all those calls.
[11:37.220 --> 11:44.100] [SPEAKER_01]: But the point is, and we were responsible for the seven dirty words because we're the ones that aired the George Carlin sketch right here on this radio station.
[11:44.420 --> 11:45.800] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of history here.
[11:45.800 --> 11:50.280] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had Julian Assange in the studio before anybody really knew who he was.
[11:51.160 --> 11:57.460] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, there are going to be all kinds of things like that in the future as well, if we do what we do and we continue to do it properly.
[11:57.460 --> 12:13.080] [SPEAKER_01]: But what you may read about in the mainstream media is how crazy it all is, how all these factions and groups are at each other's throats, how nothing can get accomplished, how stations are going bankrupt or off the air or not able to pay their bills.
[12:13.840 --> 12:15.120] [SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, you know what?
[12:15.120 --> 12:16.420] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a degree of truth to that.
[12:16.500 --> 12:16.880] [SPEAKER_01]: There is.
[12:17.000 --> 12:22.560] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of craziness that goes on around these particular entities, these stations.
[12:22.980 --> 12:25.440] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not exactly sure why that is.
[12:25.660 --> 12:29.900] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we can find out in the next hour or so why this kind of thing happens.
[12:30.040 --> 12:31.140] [SPEAKER_10]: And I digress.
[12:31.480 --> 12:33.360] [SPEAKER_10]: I would add that this is exactly what I meant.
[12:33.440 --> 12:36.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Like, it's because it's so different that it works that way.
[12:36.140 --> 12:36.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[12:36.440 --> 12:36.600] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[12:36.600 --> 12:40.580] [SPEAKER_01]: You won't see this happening at NPR or PBS or anything like that.
[12:40.800 --> 12:57.940] [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, you might have heard that, first of all, you probably heard that there was all kinds of conflict and disagreement at WBAI, that we've had all kinds of trials and tribulations since Superstorm Sandy, where we were forced to move from our Wall Street studios.
[12:58.440 --> 13:02.500] [SPEAKER_01]: And here we are basically on WHCR's couch up here in Harlem.
[13:03.420 --> 13:04.740] [SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, fine.
[13:04.900 --> 13:07.980] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we had a real issue with expenses.
[13:07.980 --> 13:12.900] [SPEAKER_01]: We were paying a huge amount of money for the Wall Street offices, something like $25,000 a month.
[13:13.220 --> 13:17.720] [SPEAKER_01]: We're forced to pay over $50,000 a month to be on the Empire State Building with our transmitter.
[13:17.720 --> 13:18.840] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a necessity.
[13:18.840 --> 13:28.080] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to broadcast to the full area that our commercial-style frequency will afford us, you have to be in a place where the signal will get out.
[13:28.160 --> 13:29.360] [SPEAKER_01]: And we do reach four states.
[13:29.640 --> 13:31.120] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's pretty incredible.
[13:31.220 --> 13:35.260] [SPEAKER_01]: KPFK in Los Angeles, most powerful transmitter west of the Mississippi.
[13:35.500 --> 13:36.280] [SPEAKER_01]: These are facts.
[13:36.360 --> 13:37.540] [SPEAKER_01]: These are amazing things.
[13:38.020 --> 13:42.600] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're able to continue doing that because of the support that we get from our listeners.
[13:42.600 --> 13:45.120] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yes, there is all kinds of conflict.
[13:45.720 --> 13:47.400] [SPEAKER_01]: We had to move to Harlem.
[13:47.780 --> 14:00.180] [SPEAKER_01]: We had to lay off a huge part of our staff, a lot of cutbacks, because things were basically mismanaged for a long, long time and just weren't run properly.
[14:00.740 --> 14:05.080] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, similar stories have taken place at the other four stations to varying degrees.
[14:05.460 --> 14:06.700] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also...
[14:06.700 --> 14:10.300] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to not really get into the particulars too much because I don't understand them.
[14:10.300 --> 14:12.400] [SPEAKER_01]: And whenever someone tries to explain it to me, I get a headache.
[14:12.780 --> 14:15.340] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think probably most people listening would as well.
[14:15.780 --> 14:21.820] [SPEAKER_01]: But the network itself has been embroiled in all kinds of conflicts and battles and things like that.
[14:21.960 --> 14:34.860] [SPEAKER_01]: The most recent being the previous month, in March, when the executive director of Pacifica, Summer Reese, was fired by a board that...
[14:34.860 --> 14:43.080] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the legitimacy of this has been contested and there's quite a battle of words going on right now as to who has authority to do what.
[14:43.240 --> 14:47.800] [SPEAKER_01]: But basically, the gist of it was that they issued this notice saying that she was fired.
[14:49.140 --> 14:57.980] [SPEAKER_01]: And Summer Reese has said quite adamantly that she does not believe that that is valid and that they have no authority to do this.
[14:58.080 --> 15:11.360] [SPEAKER_01]: So what this boils down to is right now, at this moment, right now, at this very particular instant, Summer Reese is still in her office in Berkeley at the Pacifica National Foundation in that office right there.
[15:11.900 --> 15:14.520] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's basically been living there.
[15:14.680 --> 15:18.620] [SPEAKER_01]: She's barricaded in that office because she refuses to leave.
[15:19.060 --> 15:21.780] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a Pacifica moment.
[15:22.480 --> 15:26.420] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer Reese joins us on the phone now from her barricaded office in Berkeley.
[15:26.580 --> 15:27.360] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer, are you there?
[15:28.180 --> 15:28.920] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm here.
[15:29.060 --> 15:29.240] [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[15:29.400 --> 15:30.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Did I get any of that completely wrong?
[15:31.920 --> 15:34.540] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, you know, there might be a straight edge or something.
[15:34.700 --> 15:37.580] [SPEAKER_08]: But, I mean, the office isn't barricaded during working hours.
[15:37.580 --> 15:39.760] [SPEAKER_08]: The staff is here doing their jobs and everything.
[15:39.920 --> 15:41.320] [SPEAKER_08]: But, yes, I am in my office.
[15:43.320 --> 15:48.260] [SPEAKER_08]: And most of what she said made a lot of sense in terms of all the turmoil that has beset Pacifica.
[15:48.260 --> 15:51.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll discuss that because a lot of our listeners will say, okay, that might make sense.
[15:52.020 --> 15:55.980] [SPEAKER_01]: But in the bigger scheme, it really doesn't make any sense why this keeps happening.
[15:56.320 --> 16:05.200] [SPEAKER_01]: But let me just ask you, as far as the day-to-day operations, how do you operate a radio network when you have to barricade yourself in your office?
[16:05.360 --> 16:06.900] [SPEAKER_01]: What would happen if, say, you left now?
[16:07.800 --> 16:09.460] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's pretty difficult.
[16:09.760 --> 16:17.280] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, they're trying to reinstall a CFO who was on leave improperly.
[16:17.280 --> 16:32.100] [SPEAKER_08]: They tried to take over the bank accounts last week, which if the board member who tried to do that, who isn't even allegedly an officer on the board, if the bank had acquiesced, which, thank God, it's a bank, and they require legal things like approved minutes.
[16:32.780 --> 16:37.640] [SPEAKER_08]: But if that had happened, payroll wouldn't have gone out for employees throughout the network.
[16:37.640 --> 16:43.880] [SPEAKER_08]: So the behavior of this board majority has already seriously jeopardized the organization.
[16:44.720 --> 16:48.960] [SPEAKER_08]: They were warned on the day that they took the vote to allegedly terminate me with no notice.
[16:49.180 --> 16:54.720] [SPEAKER_08]: The board minority was ambushed by the board majority because this was not on the agenda, and no one knew it was happening.
[16:55.160 --> 17:08.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And they'd been warned by their insurance carrier, our insurance carrier, that day, that any further reckless employment decisions without HR expertise could render the organization uninsurable.
[17:08.480 --> 17:10.040] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's been interesting.
[17:10.040 --> 17:24.100] [SPEAKER_08]: I've been dealing with, you know, CPB, the auditors, the people that we actually have to continue doing business with on the outside world who, you know, recognize that what's going on here is insane and makes no sense.
[17:24.100 --> 17:28.020] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's certainly difficult in terms of running day-to-day operations, of course.
[17:28.600 --> 17:31.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, Summer, it sounds like you have three different things going on.
[17:31.400 --> 17:41.340] [SPEAKER_10]: You have these, like, immediate curveballs being thrown at you, like these kind of breaks in protocol and disruptive things like payroll, as you've mentioned.
[17:41.440 --> 17:47.660] [SPEAKER_10]: You've also got immediate things that are affecting the network broadly, like with CPB and stuff like that.
[17:47.760 --> 17:55.440] [SPEAKER_10]: And then you also have the kind of regular operations of managing all these really valuable resources and an incredibly precious network.
[17:56.600 --> 18:04.660] [SPEAKER_10]: So it seems like you've got, you know, many layers of things just to get kind of a normal operational schedule going.
[18:04.660 --> 18:08.640] [SPEAKER_10]: It's really amazing, like, hearing your story and the perseverance here.
[18:09.240 --> 18:10.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, thank you.
[18:10.160 --> 18:10.740] [SPEAKER_08]: I appreciate that.
[18:10.840 --> 18:22.020] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, Pacifica is a difficult network to run even when we don't have board attacks going on because, you know, we're a very diffuse organization with a lot of distress.
[18:22.520 --> 18:42.460] [SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, CPB funds, the day that this occurred, March 13th, was the deadline for one of our radio stations to turn over its books because our audit is months late at this point and because of the refusal of that particular station's business office to reconcile its books for 18 straight months.
[18:42.680 --> 18:47.140] [SPEAKER_08]: So we have, you know, back to October of 2012, we've had to postpone our audit.
[18:47.220 --> 19:06.980] [SPEAKER_08]: And it essentially means that the CPB funds that everyone has been breathlessly waiting for that are, you know, past due by an extensive period of time at this point, it's over a million dollars that's already owed to the network, none of that will be dispersed this fiscal year because we won't possibly be able to finish our audit in time to actually see any of that money this year.
[19:07.140 --> 19:13.680] [SPEAKER_08]: And so, you know, just that alone is a huge issue and was what, you know, was occurring the day that...
[19:13.680 --> 19:24.820] [SPEAKER_08]: the day that this vote went down was the day that we honored our severance obligations to our WBAI employees who were laid off last year and was the day these books were supposed to be turned over.
[19:25.460 --> 19:30.080] [SPEAKER_08]: And we had a lot of deadlines going on that apparently the board didn't think were important to me.
[19:30.120 --> 19:30.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Sure, sure.
[19:30.560 --> 19:34.820] [SPEAKER_10]: And in light of those challenges ahead, what kinds of things do you need?
[19:34.880 --> 19:44.120] [SPEAKER_10]: What kinds of things that you think would really be good and positive in, like, moving the network and the stations in a forward direction?
[19:44.120 --> 19:54.020] [SPEAKER_10]: What kinds of really integral things from the community or from the organization there would be really crucial at this moment, maybe a top five or anything you can think of?
[19:54.600 --> 20:02.220] [SPEAKER_08]: You mean, like, presumptively, once we get past legally dealing with this attempted coup d'etat, what does the organization actually need to focus its resources on?
[20:02.360 --> 20:02.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, right.
[20:02.560 --> 20:03.520] [SPEAKER_08]: So what are we looking at?
[20:04.220 --> 20:07.880] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, obviously, I mean, we have critical infrastructural needs.
[20:07.880 --> 20:10.660] [SPEAKER_08]: We are millions of dollars in debt as an organization.
[20:11.700 --> 20:16.540] [SPEAKER_08]: We were able to, you know, reach that hurdle of paying the severance obligations to our laid off staff.
[20:16.540 --> 20:31.380] [SPEAKER_08]: But, I mean, you know, best of all, being in New York, how the situation of WBAI and how much attention it really needs to be able to save our station there and not be in the vulnerable position of having someone, you know, try to swap or buy the license.
[20:31.620 --> 20:43.000] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, and part of what's going on here also is the change in the board dynamics in terms of the majority changing to where there's a two-vote majority politically has changed hands.
[20:43.000 --> 20:47.880] [SPEAKER_08]: And a lot of those people have expressed a desire to liquidate New York in one way or another.
[20:47.880 --> 21:04.720] [SPEAKER_08]: So there is a feeling that some of this sort of crash-and-burn technique that's going on right now where you can guarantee financial distress for the organization be increased dramatically by their actions, that part of what may be motivating that is a desire to be able to justify doing things to a station on the East Coast,
[21:04.800 --> 21:05.080] [SPEAKER_08]: you know.
[21:05.080 --> 21:18.140] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think, you know, if we can, if we can, when we overcome, what we should be focusing on are all the things necessary to make a radio network survive in a changing media environment that has financial distress.
[21:18.840 --> 21:25.620] [SPEAKER_08]: We have on the East Coast, New York, Washington, D.C., and Houston, Texas, all need new transmitters in the long run.
[21:25.840 --> 21:28.100] [SPEAKER_08]: It's particularly critical in Texas and D.C.
[21:28.180 --> 21:30.160] [SPEAKER_08]: because they're both operating at low power.
[21:30.160 --> 21:35.320] [SPEAKER_08]: And for Texas, they're in their license renewal period, just as New York is.
[21:35.460 --> 21:41.160] [SPEAKER_08]: And they can't even get the transmitter up to full power for one day so that they can renew their license.
[21:41.400 --> 21:42.420] [SPEAKER_08]: And this is critical.
[21:42.420 --> 21:44.860] [SPEAKER_08]: And the board isn't even discussing issues like that.
[21:45.040 --> 21:54.900] [SPEAKER_08]: So in terms of community engagement, I'm hoping we're going to come through on the other side of this, clean house, as it were, and re-engage, you know, the listeners and supporters of the network.
[21:55.300 --> 22:08.000] [SPEAKER_08]: And I would like to see us, you know, focus on our programming, on our equipment, on maybe deploying things in a digital fashion in a more meaningful way, because we all talk about it, but there isn't a real organizational focus on that.
[22:09.260 --> 22:18.320] [SPEAKER_08]: And building new audience, you know, actually dealing with the fact that our listenership is low, but we have really valuable resources, great signals, and a lot of fantastic shows.
[22:18.320 --> 22:38.940] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think we have to get past what's going on politically with the board structure and, frankly, with cleaning up things like accounting practices and stuff that I've focused a lot of my attention on since I've been the executive director of administrative functionality and basic business practices throughout the network so that it's a functional organization.
[22:39.160 --> 22:40.720] [SPEAKER_08]: And then you can focus on your mission.
[22:40.720 --> 22:53.760] [SPEAKER_08]: But if you're constantly doing cleanup on your basic back office procedures because they are not being done correctly and there's strong resistance to implementing appropriate procedures and, you know, accounting internal controls and that sort of thing,
[22:53.800 --> 22:57.560] [SPEAKER_08]: then you don't get to focus your attention on the mission and the programming and the audience.
[22:57.760 --> 23:07.920] [SPEAKER_08]: So it has to be a complete refocus of our energies to where we fix things so they work right and then we can do what we all think we're here for, which is, I would think, radio and programming, you know.
[23:08.320 --> 23:15.700] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, Summer, from the outside, from someone not familiar with this whole story, this could seem like a case of just, oh, someone was fired and they don't want to leave.
[23:15.840 --> 23:20.900] [SPEAKER_02]: But can you explain a little bit about why that is not the case, why, what's going on here?
[23:22.540 --> 23:22.940] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.
[23:22.940 --> 23:28.140] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I care very much about Pacifica and I've invested not only my own time but my family's.
[23:28.260 --> 23:33.400] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we're highly invested in the survival of the organization long before I had a paying job here.
[23:35.020 --> 23:44.200] [SPEAKER_08]: If it was just about my firing, every attorney who's looked at my contract agrees it's ironclad and I could sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that would be that.
[23:44.400 --> 23:46.440] [SPEAKER_08]: They violated my contract straight up.
[23:47.400 --> 23:56.020] [SPEAKER_08]: I think they intended to violate my contract because we're back to a board that is intentionally creating legal and financial liability for the organization for some reason.
[23:56.160 --> 23:57.480] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, why would a board do that?
[23:57.620 --> 23:58.780] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I don't understand.
[23:58.800 --> 24:00.380] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think anybody else really gets that.
[24:00.740 --> 24:03.420] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so we don't have normal boards.
[24:03.600 --> 24:06.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Most boards actually do things which are productive and healthy for their organizations.
[24:06.920 --> 24:12.160] [SPEAKER_08]: We have political parties, essentially, running for the board.
[24:13.200 --> 24:17.280] [SPEAKER_08]: The factional control of the board switched hands for the first time in about five years.
[24:17.640 --> 24:23.080] [SPEAKER_08]: And the people that are now in the, you know, ostensible small majority here.
[24:24.700 --> 24:30.480] [SPEAKER_08]: We all know that there are many bids and offers coming in on the New York signal and have been for well over a year now.
[24:31.260 --> 24:40.880] [SPEAKER_08]: One of the people that voted to do these various things, who was like a second on some of these motions going after me, immediately put a motion up to reconsider swapping the New York signal.
[24:41.140 --> 24:46.340] [SPEAKER_08]: One of the other people involved with this said, I don't think we should take commercial offers off the table.
[24:47.020 --> 24:57.080] [SPEAKER_08]: And the employer of the board member who brought the motion to fire me and who a month earlier had brought a motion to fire me when he was first seated on the board, didn't know this man from Adam.
[24:57.340 --> 25:00.160] [SPEAKER_08]: But he's an employee of Dan Siegel, a former board member.
[25:00.680 --> 25:09.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And that former board member said to my face that he was in favor of dismantling the network because of organizational Darwinism, because he only cared about seeing KPFA survive.
[25:09.900 --> 25:12.880] [SPEAKER_08]: So the current alleged board chair is from KPFA.
[25:12.960 --> 25:15.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And a lot of this seems politically coming from the West Coast.
[25:16.200 --> 25:19.460] [SPEAKER_08]: So why would board members crash and burn an organization?
[25:19.460 --> 25:24.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Because if you create enough financial liability, it becomes vulnerable to hostile takeover.
[25:24.740 --> 25:25.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's a fact.
[25:25.760 --> 25:27.220] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's what I think we're seeing here.
[25:27.780 --> 25:39.520] [SPEAKER_08]: You cannot be warned by every attorney that every single attorney that advised this board when they bothered to have legal counsel, which was rarely in the last six weeks, has told them, you can't do this.
[25:39.640 --> 25:40.860] [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to violate her contract.
[25:41.080 --> 25:42.200] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you're breaking the law.
[25:42.360 --> 25:45.280] [SPEAKER_08]: The insurance carrier tells them you're going to become uninsurable.
[25:45.280 --> 25:48.000] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's because we've had so much employment litigation in the past.
[25:48.000 --> 25:53.020] [SPEAKER_08]: We've had no employment litigation while I've been the executive director, but they're about to try and break that.
[25:53.740 --> 25:57.320] [SPEAKER_08]: So if I just wanted to sue, I would have gone and sued.
[25:57.460 --> 25:59.680] [SPEAKER_08]: But the organization cannot afford to have me sue.
[25:59.780 --> 26:06.020] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't have the money to pay my contract because they've breached it any more than we have to pay all the people we already owe money to.
[26:06.920 --> 26:09.920] [SPEAKER_08]: And so I think there's some pretty nefarious stuff going on here.
[26:09.940 --> 26:15.700] [SPEAKER_08]: You wouldn't violate every single law and procedure along the way as a board if you weren't trying to create liability.
[26:15.700 --> 26:21.420] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, if they had wanted to fire me and not violate my contract, they could have tried, you know, writing me up.
[26:21.540 --> 26:23.040] [SPEAKER_08]: I've never had a performance evaluation.
[26:23.200 --> 26:30.460] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think it's specific bad actors, you know, probably working in concert with people who don't really know the consequences.
[26:30.760 --> 26:39.360] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one thing I definitely would like to avoid in this hour is any kind of finger pointing to one side or another, because as you've mentioned, there are multiple sides, multiple factions.
[26:39.760 --> 26:44.880] [SPEAKER_01]: And over the years, we've seen one side take over, another side get purged, et cetera, et cetera.
[26:44.920 --> 26:52.020] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, a mini state in some part of the world where there's all kinds of revolutions and changes in direction.
[26:52.220 --> 27:00.420] [SPEAKER_01]: And to be honest, it just never seems to actually get traction where we start moving forward and continue moving forward.
[27:00.580 --> 27:03.100] [SPEAKER_01]: It's basically one step forward and another step backwards.
[27:03.220 --> 27:06.020] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if we're making any progress whatsoever.
[27:06.360 --> 27:14.580] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think to most of our listeners and to most of our staff here in New York, I think I speak for most of them and just saying that they want to do radio.
[27:14.720 --> 27:15.600] [SPEAKER_01]: They want to hear radio.
[27:15.880 --> 27:18.400] [SPEAKER_01]: They want to focus on the things that make this place great.
[27:18.420 --> 27:22.200] [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't care about all this infighting and squabbling.
[27:23.240 --> 27:24.560] [SPEAKER_01]: What side is right?
[27:24.620 --> 27:25.280] [SPEAKER_01]: What side is wrong?
[27:25.400 --> 27:30.380] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are a lot of good people on all of the sides, because I know people on all the different sides.
[27:30.920 --> 27:37.020] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are all sorts of things that are relevant and all sorts of things that are irrelevant to what it is that we believe in.
[27:37.020 --> 27:45.280] [SPEAKER_01]: And I really wish that we could just somehow put this aside and focus on getting this place to where it should be.
[27:45.440 --> 27:46.660] [SPEAKER_01]: We are a radio station.
[27:46.840 --> 27:55.000] [SPEAKER_01]: We are a radio network that can reach millions and millions of people with fantastic programming and relevant issues that need to be addressed.
[27:55.000 --> 28:07.400] [SPEAKER_01]: We had the Gulf War, and we spent most of the time around Pacifica squabbling over various infighting and debates over what kind of power will be had if somebody gets elected.
[28:07.740 --> 28:15.440] [SPEAKER_01]: I've literally seen people on both sides or multiple sides of the issue stooping to just making fun of each other's names and things like that.
[28:15.440 --> 28:16.780] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, really silly.
[28:17.380 --> 28:19.480] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have to change something.
[28:19.480 --> 28:20.320] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, though.
[28:20.380 --> 28:24.360] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have nearly enough knowledge to be able to address this intelligently, what it is that needs to be changed.
[28:24.360 --> 28:28.260] [SPEAKER_01]: But it just seems to me one thing we can all agree on is that this is not working.
[28:28.660 --> 28:29.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I agree.
[28:29.720 --> 28:31.860] [SPEAKER_08]: I think there is widespread agreement on that.
[28:31.900 --> 28:33.880] [SPEAKER_08]: I think what you're really talking about is structural change.
[28:34.020 --> 28:47.440] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, the more in-depth in dealing with this situation, if you look at the last 15 years, I mean, the post-new bylaws era of really expensive elections, of turning everything into...
[28:47.440 --> 28:52.960] [SPEAKER_08]: Because I don't think... I mean, I know when I came on the local board in Los Angeles, I didn't know that it was the equivalent of party politics.
[28:52.960 --> 28:56.400] [SPEAKER_08]: You get to the board and you think, oh, I'm here to serve this radio station.
[28:56.420 --> 28:58.480] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm here to do good things for a radio station.
[28:58.760 --> 29:02.960] [SPEAKER_08]: And then you get into the environment and people have, you know, political sides.
[29:02.960 --> 29:10.020] [SPEAKER_08]: I believe that in the long run, what needs to come out of this is a complete restructuring of the governance structure.
[29:10.020 --> 29:22.560] [SPEAKER_08]: We shouldn't have elections every two out of three years that cost a quarter of a million dollars each to elect people who literally are not expected to raise even $5 in the course of a year for the sake of the radio station.
[29:22.560 --> 29:31.060] [SPEAKER_08]: And where so much attention, there's so much energy within the organization that is diverted to this political struggle all the time of one sort or another.
[29:32.540 --> 29:36.160] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that one has to address the structural issues.
[29:36.280 --> 29:37.440] [SPEAKER_08]: You have to address the bylaws.
[29:37.440 --> 29:39.980] [SPEAKER_08]: You have to address how the organization is being run.
[29:40.560 --> 29:41.860] [SPEAKER_08]: And I agree with you.
[29:41.920 --> 29:43.500] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think the listeners care at all about this.
[29:43.620 --> 29:45.480] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, people talk about that during election season.
[29:45.480 --> 29:49.660] [SPEAKER_08]: Why would most listeners actually care about who they're electing to the board?
[29:49.680 --> 29:50.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Because they don't know who they are.
[29:50.860 --> 29:52.380] [SPEAKER_08]: They care about what they hear on the radio.
[29:52.520 --> 29:57.340] [SPEAKER_08]: And that is where most people's engagement would legitimately be, whether they're producers or hosts or listeners.
[29:57.620 --> 30:07.960] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think there's been a lot of actually, I would say, hopeful energy that's coming out of this struggle to deal with this abuse of power by the present board.
[30:08.460 --> 30:14.460] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that's because people want to see the organization saved from what's been going on for so many years.
[30:14.680 --> 30:17.000] [SPEAKER_08]: And to do that, you have to address the structures.
[30:17.000 --> 30:20.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that conversation is going to end up coming out of what's going on now.
[30:20.920 --> 30:21.800] [SPEAKER_01]: Barney, you had a point?
[30:21.860 --> 30:22.040] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[30:22.380 --> 30:25.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I did want to point out, though, well, I agree.
[30:25.780 --> 30:31.780] [SPEAKER_06]: We try to get off the topic of the political infighting and motivations.
[30:32.220 --> 30:35.120] [SPEAKER_06]: This is not an unprecedented scenario.
[30:35.120 --> 30:53.440] [SPEAKER_06]: First, we have to, we can't ignore the fact that WBAI as a radio station resource is conservatively estimated to be valued on the commercial market for somewhere between $65 and $100 million.
[30:53.880 --> 30:55.040] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that about right, Summer?
[30:55.280 --> 30:58.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's been the estimations I have gotten based on.
[30:58.360 --> 31:00.800] [SPEAKER_06]: That's a massive amount of money.
[31:00.800 --> 31:10.620] [SPEAKER_06]: When we have something, a resource like that, with different factions that can control, potentially control it, there is, there can be a lot of infighting.
[31:10.780 --> 31:19.880] [SPEAKER_06]: I, being from the Philadelphia area, I can remember a similar situation, not with the radio station, but with a, let's get too far afield here, but with the Barnes Foundation.
[31:19.880 --> 31:27.740] [SPEAKER_06]: It was a famous nonprofit organization, the Barnes Museum, a famous collection of incredible artworks by Dr. Barnes.
[31:28.180 --> 31:42.400] [SPEAKER_06]: And the foundation's board was just infighting, and they racked up all these legal fees, and certain factions in the board wanted to bring, move the museum from the suburbs into the city, a beautiful setting in the city where it was a teaching institution.
[31:42.400 --> 32:03.960] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's a really good movie about this called The Art of the Steel, where it documented how this, certain factions of the board managed to rack up all these legal fees through lawsuits like it's been going on at Pacifica, and basically driving the foundation into bankruptcy,
[32:03.960 --> 32:08.480] [SPEAKER_06]: which then required the resource to be sold.
[32:08.480 --> 32:18.900] [SPEAKER_06]: And the art museum got sold and brought, it turned into a commercial tourist attraction in Center City, Philadelphia, as opposed to the teaching institution that was once in the outskirts of Philadelphia.
[32:19.120 --> 32:31.320] [SPEAKER_06]: So this is kind of a pattern I've seen myself with nonprofit foundations, where it can be misused to take control of a very valuable resource.
[32:31.320 --> 32:40.980] [SPEAKER_06]: And WBAI is not just a valuable intellectual resource, community resource, but it's worth a lot of money.
[32:40.980 --> 32:48.360] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think it should be sold, but you can't ignore the fact that there's all this money sitting on the table that people are trying to grab.
[32:48.520 --> 32:50.020] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's my concern.
[32:51.380 --> 33:05.420] [SPEAKER_10]: I think, Summer, that it is inspiring to look at it very much like in operations, and as you said, structurally, that, you know, the people that should be on the bylaws in these elections, I think that era, I think it has not worked.
[33:05.500 --> 33:08.620] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think the politics should stay on the air.
[33:09.940 --> 33:23.640] [SPEAKER_10]: I think the people that are passionate about keeping radio, if you're righteous about keeping the radio station operating and solvency, you know, that kind of stuff, that's the kind of politics that need to be on a board.
[33:24.040 --> 33:27.320] [SPEAKER_10]: And these, quote, factions need to be on the air.
[33:27.580 --> 33:30.640] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, that's, that's, and there needs to be a separation there.
[33:30.760 --> 33:36.280] [SPEAKER_10]: And it seems like it's just long, long since been all kind of one beast.
[33:36.300 --> 33:38.320] [SPEAKER_10]: And it's, it's too chaotic.
[33:38.320 --> 33:43.660] [SPEAKER_10]: And it really needs to be about people that care about the operations and the institution being there.
[33:43.660 --> 33:47.120] [SPEAKER_10]: And then we can get into politics and who believes what and that kind of thing.
[33:47.220 --> 33:51.500] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't believe that that really has been helpful too much to the institution.
[33:51.680 --> 33:53.100] [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, it's been disintegrating it.
[33:53.360 --> 33:56.500] [SPEAKER_01]: See, radio is something I think we've all been touched by the magic of it.
[33:56.840 --> 34:04.940] [SPEAKER_01]: Many times I find myself sitting in my car waiting to hear the end of something on the radio when I should be going inside because it's just that riveting, that good.
[34:04.940 --> 34:23.080] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's something that I've heard many times on Pacifica stations, but not nearly enough because, well, we don't focus enough on the magic of radio rather than the pettiness of some of these infighting going on or just maybe the same old thing week after week.
[34:23.420 --> 34:26.920] [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that that's not something that we are guilty of on our show.
[34:27.000 --> 34:34.320] [SPEAKER_01]: We try to mix it up a bit and branch out as much as possible as we're doing tonight, talking about something completely different that hopefully is of interest to the listeners.
[34:34.320 --> 34:41.440] [SPEAKER_01]: And it should be of interest to anybody listening to this radio station because you might not be able to listen to this radio station if things go a certain way.
[34:42.180 --> 34:53.420] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer, you mentioned that there are people interested in swapping frequencies, putting us on a lower power frequency further down the dial or just selling the station altogether.
[34:53.440 --> 34:58.860] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the people who want to do that aren't here, obviously, because they don't recognize the value of the place.
[34:58.860 --> 35:04.400] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't actually listen to the radio station over the radio, where most of the magic is.
[35:04.520 --> 35:06.940] [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody can just turn on the radio and hear what's going on.
[35:07.040 --> 35:08.140] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what drew me into this place.
[35:08.260 --> 35:10.880] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what drew just about everybody into WBAI.
[35:12.340 --> 35:25.580] [SPEAKER_01]: How much of a threat is that really that you've seen on a day-to-day basis where the prospect of selling WBAI or swapping it down the dial for something much less powerful, how real is that?
[35:25.580 --> 35:28.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think the pressures are very real.
[35:29.860 --> 35:34.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Pacifica legitimately is millions of dollars in debt.
[35:36.020 --> 35:44.040] [SPEAKER_08]: WBAI has had tremendous difficulty meeting even reduced operating expenses and is still struggling with that.
[35:45.560 --> 35:51.360] [SPEAKER_08]: WPFW is operating at low power for an incredibly long period of time now and struggling.
[35:51.740 --> 35:55.020] [SPEAKER_08]: KPFT is struggling and operating at low power.
[35:55.020 --> 36:00.980] [SPEAKER_08]: Neither station has really the reserves to do what they need to do with their equipment.
[36:01.280 --> 36:08.700] [SPEAKER_08]: And the two California stations, which appear to be doing better financially, they spend what they make.
[36:08.800 --> 36:16.460] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, they're not actually in good financial shape either and have to have long fund drives and have trouble meeting their operating costs.
[36:16.460 --> 36:23.120] [SPEAKER_08]: And the Pacifica National Office, the way the structure works, there are what we call shared expenses, things that are for the whole network.
[36:23.140 --> 36:24.280] [SPEAKER_08]: But New York and D.C.
[36:24.380 --> 36:27.160] [SPEAKER_08]: aren't able to contribute to those at all and haven't been in a long time.
[36:27.160 --> 36:28.800] [SPEAKER_08]: So there are real financial pressures.
[36:28.800 --> 36:43.160] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you're from another station, it seems like the willingness to consider cannibalization of certain parts of the system in order to support other parts of the system seems to be really present.
[36:43.600 --> 36:48.940] [SPEAKER_08]: And then, you know, when we're talking money and the types of amounts, we're talking about millions of dollars.
[36:48.940 --> 36:57.240] [SPEAKER_08]: It depends on, you know, how different individuals may view what they could do with that and whether they think, you know, WBAI is being adequately used now as a resource.
[36:57.440 --> 37:01.180] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, obviously, different people bring different perceptions, but I think these are real threats.
[37:02.240 --> 37:03.520] [SPEAKER_08]: There are real offers.
[37:04.980 --> 37:06.820] [SPEAKER_08]: And the reckless behavior...
[37:06.820 --> 37:12.920] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, one of the reasons people have been so outraged across the country by what the board has done has nothing to do with me as an individual.
[37:12.920 --> 37:28.340] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it has to do with recklessness in terms of the behavior of the board where you would intentionally create hundreds of thousands of dollars of liability and completely disrupt the functionality of the organization at critical, you know, a really critical place in its history.
[37:28.540 --> 37:29.340] [SPEAKER_08]: And that is...
[37:29.340 --> 37:34.400] [SPEAKER_08]: It's so grossly irresponsible that one does have to look and say, okay, so are there other reasons for this?
[37:35.260 --> 37:50.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And certainly, I mean, from the story that was just told about, you know, that other organization, if a board can drive its organization into such distress that it ends up having to liquidate assets, I mean, that could be a scenario that some people are desiring because they can say,
[37:50.280 --> 37:51.640] [SPEAKER_08]: oh, look, we have to do this.
[37:51.720 --> 37:52.660] [SPEAKER_08]: There's no choice anymore.
[37:52.840 --> 37:53.880] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think those are...
[37:54.330 --> 38:01.560] [SPEAKER_08]: I think these are real dynamics at play in the present situation and shouldn't be discounted as not being part of what's happening.
[38:02.820 --> 38:07.500] [SPEAKER_08]: We also have real financial accountability problems in Pacifica of a deep, deep nature.
[38:08.540 --> 38:16.400] [SPEAKER_08]: In 2012, which was our last audited tax year, half of our money was classified by our auditors as being in suspense accounts.
[38:16.420 --> 38:21.660] [SPEAKER_08]: And they call a suspense account something which is unexplainable or lacks sufficient documentation.
[38:22.260 --> 38:26.100] [SPEAKER_08]: It means we can't tell for sure what you did with this, you know?
[38:26.460 --> 38:30.300] [SPEAKER_08]: As an organization, like every year, we've been cited for lack of internal controls.
[38:30.300 --> 38:33.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's something I've been pressing very hard on all around the network.
[38:34.200 --> 38:40.420] [SPEAKER_08]: You're in New York, so you know things like premium fulfillment, making sure that you're actually honoring the public when they order things from the station.
[38:40.780 --> 38:44.320] [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of it is just basic, again, basic business, standard business practice.
[38:44.580 --> 38:55.860] [SPEAKER_08]: But if organizationally people are not doing what is standard and you encounter resistance every time you try to implement these things, there must be, you know, there are reasons for these things.
[38:55.860 --> 39:10.760] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think that what could be perceived as severe problems in our accounting controls, they factor in with making a weakened organization, and a weakened organization is more vulnerable to whatever forces are on the outside who may be interested in its assets.
[39:10.960 --> 39:14.260] [SPEAKER_08]: And we, in fact, we own incredibly valuable assets.
[39:15.540 --> 39:20.240] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, the licenses are granted to us, you know, by the FCC, so we don't own them in quite that way.
[39:20.240 --> 39:23.660] [SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, we have stewardship over incredibly powerful licenses.
[39:25.380 --> 39:30.080] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, people desire them, and commercial operators also desire them.
[39:30.240 --> 39:36.780] [SPEAKER_08]: And the actions of the present board do not indicate, you know, a prudent care for the assets of the foundation.
[39:37.180 --> 39:41.740] [SPEAKER_08]: And there's been enough talk about people's desires to do various things with the New York signal.
[39:42.220 --> 39:49.580] [SPEAKER_08]: Potentially the other signals, any of the stations that are perceived at this point as being, I think, in a weakened position have some vulnerability.
[39:49.580 --> 39:54.640] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just there's been a lot more interest in and, you know, publicity around what's going on in New York.
[39:54.820 --> 40:06.520] [SPEAKER_01]: We're speaking with Summer Reese, executive director of Pacifica, currently barricaded inside her office in Berkeley as members of the Pacifica National Board attempt to have her fired.
[40:06.520 --> 40:08.920] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just another day in Pacifica, it seems.
[40:10.120 --> 40:12.420] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer, how do you feel about taking some listener phone calls?
[40:13.040 --> 40:14.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I love listener phone calls, sure.
[40:14.880 --> 40:16.560] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, it could be a lot of fun.
[40:16.560 --> 40:23.860] [SPEAKER_01]: But let me just ask you, you were mentioning all the problems that the stations were having, all five stations having difficulty just meeting expenses.
[40:24.420 --> 40:35.600] [SPEAKER_01]: And I assume this is without all the craziness going on with factions on the board and plans to take the network apart.
[40:36.540 --> 40:45.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask you, do you think radio is sustainable in this day and age, with all the other media that's out there, all the competition?
[40:46.320 --> 40:48.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it even relevant anymore?
[40:48.920 --> 40:51.620] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, no, I think radio is completely relevant.
[40:52.800 --> 40:57.800] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a changing marketplace, and those are the kinds of things that organizationally we should be focused on.
[40:57.800 --> 40:59.900] [SPEAKER_08]: What should we be doing in the next five years?
[41:01.100 --> 41:07.200] [SPEAKER_08]: We know NYC received a big grant, you know, $10 million to deal with digital technology.
[41:07.200 --> 41:10.660] [SPEAKER_08]: Obviously, we should have some attention focused on that aspect of our business.
[41:10.940 --> 41:16.440] [SPEAKER_08]: I think the answer is yes, because other people are listening to other radio stations.
[41:16.700 --> 41:18.000] [SPEAKER_08]: They do have listeners still.
[41:18.380 --> 41:20.680] [SPEAKER_08]: Not everybody has moved to listening on their telephones yet.
[41:21.800 --> 41:27.480] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's still completely relevant, but we have to sort of go back to our roots and find who we are.
[41:27.480 --> 41:40.280] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, somehow the entire mission has gotten subverted, and everything is about all this side minutiae that has nothing to do with putting varied programming out on the air that's completely alternative to the mainstream.
[41:40.560 --> 41:48.220] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that the public is really interested in completely alternative to the mainstream, because people know things are messed up, and, you know, they want information.
[41:48.220 --> 41:50.160] [SPEAKER_08]: People are hungry for real information.
[41:50.360 --> 41:51.940] [SPEAKER_08]: They're still hungry for real information.
[41:52.180 --> 41:53.700] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it may change formats a little.
[41:53.700 --> 41:57.680] [SPEAKER_08]: It may come packaged differently, but there is always stuff going on in the world.
[41:57.820 --> 42:02.140] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, we're living in the age of the NSA and collapsing economies all over the world.
[42:02.440 --> 42:05.720] [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, people need information, but we have to give it to them.
[42:05.860 --> 42:08.880] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's part of the overall, like, what Pacifica needs to do.
[42:08.960 --> 42:12.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Like, I feel we need to have a more open shop mentality at our radio stations.
[42:12.520 --> 42:17.160] [SPEAKER_08]: We're so close that new programming can't find any room on our airwaves.
[42:17.160 --> 42:21.740] [SPEAKER_08]: So we decry that we don't have new listeners, but we also don't allow anything to come in and get on the air.
[42:21.740 --> 42:40.940] [SPEAKER_08]: So those are sort of corporate cultural issues for the whole foundation, like why isn't there a regular evaluative process so people have the expectation that shows may be moved every year or two just because you're reviewing how they're doing and whether people are listening and you're going to allow room for new ideas from the community to spring up and get on the air.
[42:41.080 --> 42:45.440] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think, yes, but one has to be lively and present and really available.
[42:45.760 --> 42:48.440] [SPEAKER_08]: And, I mean, there are things going on in the Bay Area, you know, inventors.
[42:48.440 --> 42:52.780] [SPEAKER_08]: There's this fantastic invention lab over in San Francisco, and it's like, wow, this is cool.
[42:52.800 --> 42:54.480] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, I'd love some of this on the air.
[42:54.620 --> 42:56.880] [SPEAKER_08]: But you have to create a venue where that's welcome.
[42:57.080 --> 43:07.500] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's what, you know, Pacifica needs to go back to that, where we are a place where you can come in and do creative stuff and find a welcome, you know, find a welcome environment, not one where you're like, oh, my gosh, what's going on around here?
[43:07.700 --> 43:07.880] [SPEAKER_08]: You know?
[43:08.260 --> 43:08.820] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[43:08.960 --> 43:15.440] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically fundamentally changing just the way that we open up the doors to people and present things on the radio.
[43:15.680 --> 43:17.560] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned people listening on their phones.
[43:17.800 --> 43:21.100] [SPEAKER_01]: People still could be listening on their phones to Pacifica.
[43:21.740 --> 43:24.620] [SPEAKER_01]: We could have Pacifica apps and all sorts of things like that.
[43:26.180 --> 43:26.940] [SPEAKER_01]: No, definitely.
[43:27.240 --> 43:28.060] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not beyond the realm, possibly.
[43:28.240 --> 43:29.020] [SPEAKER_08]: I think radio is still...
[43:29.020 --> 43:31.220] [SPEAKER_08]: And radio is still the thing that people listen to when they're traveling.
[43:31.420 --> 43:35.360] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it still fills a lot of niches that, you know, screens don't fill.
[43:35.360 --> 43:41.760] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think that, you know, we have a long time that we can continue broadcasting, but only if we get our act together.
[43:42.000 --> 43:42.360] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[43:42.480 --> 43:45.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[43:45.320 --> 43:46.060] [SPEAKER_01]: Rob, did you have something?
[43:46.280 --> 43:47.240] [SPEAKER_01]: You're looking at me expectantly.
[43:47.440 --> 43:47.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike, go ahead.
[43:48.080 --> 43:49.360] [SPEAKER_09]: I did want to ask you, Summer.
[43:50.400 --> 43:55.960] [SPEAKER_09]: Besides, of course, their financial support, are there things that listeners can do if they want to maybe help the situation?
[43:56.940 --> 44:00.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, there are petitions out there that hundreds of people have signed.
[44:00.700 --> 44:10.840] [SPEAKER_08]: There's one, because we're in Berkeley next to KPFA, so there's one at Support KPFA, supporting, you know, me and against the board actions that are being taken.
[44:10.840 --> 44:13.080] [SPEAKER_08]: People have been writing letters and articles.
[44:13.340 --> 44:18.600] [SPEAKER_08]: And I would say, you know, the more public support there is, the better, of course.
[44:18.840 --> 44:27.440] [SPEAKER_08]: And there's litigation going on, and I think this will continue to develop, and people may end up wanting to support those types of things to address.
[44:27.440 --> 44:39.000] [SPEAKER_08]: Again, we're talking, you know, in the long run, structural issues and kind of insisting that boards act with, you know, actual fiduciary behavior towards the institution and not to achieve other objectives.
[44:39.580 --> 44:45.780] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's try and take our first listener phone call, because a number of people have been waiting, and hopefully we won't screw this up too badly.
[44:46.660 --> 44:48.120] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's hit this button.
[44:48.400 --> 44:49.260] [SPEAKER_01]: And good evening.
[44:49.400 --> 44:51.140] [SPEAKER_01]: You're on WBAI with Summer Reese.
[44:51.520 --> 44:52.420] [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[44:52.420 --> 44:57.060] [SPEAKER_03]: And first, I'd like to thank you, Summer, for what you've been doing.
[44:57.400 --> 44:58.660] [SPEAKER_03]: To me, you're...
[44:58.660 --> 45:00.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I'm...
[45:00.020 --> 45:00.640] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[45:00.740 --> 45:04.060] [SPEAKER_03]: To me, you're saving our station, and I just think it's wonderful.
[45:04.660 --> 45:06.460] [SPEAKER_03]: But what I wanted to say, two things.
[45:06.660 --> 45:17.060] [SPEAKER_03]: One is, there are companies that are run, like, extremely well and set up so that things like this wouldn't happen.
[45:17.060 --> 45:18.020] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know...
[45:18.020 --> 45:21.240] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm forgetting which ones I've heard about in the past.
[45:21.240 --> 45:28.080] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's something, you know, to think about of a way that we could follow some other path.
[45:28.260 --> 45:32.960] [SPEAKER_03]: But what I also wanted to ask you is, I don't understand these...
[45:32.960 --> 45:34.340] [SPEAKER_03]: I still am not clear.
[45:34.660 --> 45:35.260] [SPEAKER_03]: The people...
[45:36.000 --> 45:42.020] [SPEAKER_03]: If things were sold and money came to somebody, can these people actually...
[45:42.020 --> 45:44.540] [SPEAKER_03]: Are there people who are going to get this money?
[45:44.540 --> 45:46.160] [SPEAKER_03]: This is what I'm not getting here.
[45:48.160 --> 45:53.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I wouldn't have any knowledge as to whether anyone had what would be the equivalent of a side deal.
[45:53.760 --> 45:55.960] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just looking sort of institutionally.
[45:56.560 --> 46:01.020] [SPEAKER_08]: There are five stations, all of whom have some local interest.
[46:01.180 --> 46:14.440] [SPEAKER_08]: And there is a perception, at least in some signal areas, that if one station were liquidated or, you know, in some way became financially, their assets became available, that they would be spread around the rest of the network.
[46:14.580 --> 46:23.460] [SPEAKER_08]: And so that it wouldn't... that the benefit would not necessarily devolve only to the local signal area, but might, in fact, be something that was a benefit to other signal areas.
[46:23.600 --> 46:26.360] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's basically station versus station with some of these functions.
[46:26.360 --> 46:26.960] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm serious.
[46:27.180 --> 46:28.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Organizational cannibalism.
[46:28.420 --> 46:34.800] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, when I had someone who was a board member describe it as organizational Darwinism, I was like, oh my gosh, you know, really?
[46:35.200 --> 46:45.600] [SPEAKER_08]: So I would say that that's certainly, you know, something that wouldn't fall into the same illegal realm that individuals profiting off of something would, but is certainly ethically questionable.
[46:46.280 --> 46:57.840] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me just ask you, since we're talking about the value of radio and the things that come out over the airwaves, as you know, with our massive layoffs here at WBAI, we were forced to close down our entire news department.
[46:58.140 --> 47:03.340] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, a station like WBAI is... the news is just so important.
[47:03.400 --> 47:07.340] [SPEAKER_01]: And not having that, I think, has been a real detriment to what we present on the air.
[47:07.520 --> 47:13.020] [SPEAKER_01]: How high do you hold restoration of our news department as something that's necessary?
[47:13.820 --> 47:17.160] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think news is incredibly important in general.
[47:17.160 --> 47:23.060] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think everyone was most unhappy about the news department being laid off, you know, of all things.
[47:24.400 --> 47:36.520] [SPEAKER_08]: I have to be honest, like, from, again, from an organizational perspective, the first thing I'm looking at is, like, that we need stability of funding for regular basic operations, regardless of anything that is on the air.
[47:36.640 --> 47:44.400] [SPEAKER_08]: The fact that we have equipment breaking down in stations that can't renew their licenses because they can't actually broadcast at full power is at such a critical level.
[47:45.520 --> 47:47.540] [SPEAKER_08]: And that we are in such debt.
[47:47.780 --> 47:53.780] [SPEAKER_08]: But in the long run, I think news is something worth investing money in, even though generally it doesn't pay for itself.
[47:53.960 --> 47:54.880] [SPEAKER_08]: But that's everywhere.
[47:55.940 --> 48:13.240] [SPEAKER_08]: I personally feel coming, like, through this present political struggle of dealing with, you know, trying to do the right thing here, that a larger discussion about how the economic resources in Pacifica are expended needs to happen kind of network-wide in terms of,
[48:13.320 --> 48:17.160] [SPEAKER_08]: you know, are we a community radio network or are we something else?
[48:17.160 --> 48:20.140] [SPEAKER_08]: Do we pay to put certain programs on the air in strips?
[48:20.300 --> 48:25.120] [SPEAKER_08]: Or is it better to invest that money back in production support for volunteer programming?
[48:25.260 --> 48:31.360] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that's part of that discussion that needs to happen in terms of how do we spend listener resources for what we put on the air.
[48:31.360 --> 48:36.180] [SPEAKER_08]: So, yes, I support restoring the news department, but news is very expensive.
[48:36.180 --> 48:38.620] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think we have a lot of stuff to do between here and there.
[48:38.880 --> 48:44.500] [SPEAKER_08]: And overall, we need to have a broader discussion as to what we do with the money and what we pay to put on the air.
[48:44.660 --> 48:45.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Because that is...
[48:45.280 --> 48:55.520] [SPEAKER_08]: There's a fundamental philosophical issue there as to whether you're paying some programmers to be on the air or whether you don't do that and you just pay for the, like, administrative support services that you...
[48:55.520 --> 48:57.800] [SPEAKER_08]: and technical services that you have to pay for.
[48:57.800 --> 49:06.320] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that's a legitimate discussion because Pacifica is having to raise so much money and it spends all of that money and there are no reserves.
[49:06.580 --> 49:10.220] [SPEAKER_08]: And we're in a kind of, as people call it, like the death spiral of fund drive.
[49:10.420 --> 49:12.540] [SPEAKER_08]: Sometimes we're in fund drive five times a year.
[49:12.660 --> 49:18.720] [SPEAKER_08]: Obviously, that's exacerbated in New York because of your incredibly high fixed costs there with the tower rental at Empire State.
[49:19.580 --> 49:25.120] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, that's the best location in the city and the only one that's going to reach as broad an area as you have.
[49:25.120 --> 49:31.960] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's a great place for the station to be, but we simply have to, you know, have more listeners and bring in more money in relationship to what we're spending.
[49:32.320 --> 49:39.120] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, radio station on top of the Empire State Building is not something you want to cut back on, something you want to expand with and use because it's a valuable resource.
[49:39.860 --> 49:40.180] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[49:40.400 --> 49:40.720] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's...
[49:40.720 --> 49:42.600] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a lot of people don't seem to really understand that.
[49:42.700 --> 49:43.660] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very frustrating.
[49:43.740 --> 49:44.440] [SPEAKER_08]: I try to explain that to people.
[49:44.620 --> 49:46.580] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, because they're like, can't you go to a lower elevation?
[49:46.580 --> 49:50.100] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm like, okay, so those tall buildings in Manhattan, they work like mountains.
[49:50.140 --> 49:53.440] [SPEAKER_08]: If you actually want to be heard all over the city, you have to be above them, you know.
[49:53.440 --> 49:55.240] [SPEAKER_08]: And people don't understand that.
[49:55.360 --> 50:03.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And you have to broadcast, you know, yes, it's not advantageous necessarily to move to another location, and it isn't as easy as all that.
[50:03.100 --> 50:07.940] [SPEAKER_08]: And we would have to replace our transmitter because it is also old, and that's about a quarter of a million dollars.
[50:08.080 --> 50:11.700] [SPEAKER_08]: So it isn't like we can just hop from, you know, the frying pan into the fire on that.
[50:11.860 --> 50:12.780] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the right place.
[50:12.780 --> 50:18.880] [SPEAKER_08]: We need to rebuild the station and the programming and the listeners, and then we can afford the rented Empire State.
[50:18.880 --> 50:20.620] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, New York is filled with talented people.
[50:20.620 --> 50:21.700] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot to talk about.
[50:21.840 --> 50:23.780] [SPEAKER_01]: We have the facilities to broadcast to them.
[50:23.880 --> 50:27.460] [SPEAKER_01]: We just have to get over these hurdles of destroying each other.
[50:27.640 --> 50:35.460] [SPEAKER_01]: And if we can do that, I think the future is actually bright because, wow, we have these five full-power radio stations in really big markets.
[50:36.000 --> 50:41.380] [SPEAKER_01]: That's more than a lot of other organizations that would kill for this kind of access have.
[50:41.980 --> 50:43.860] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, let's look at it that way.
[50:43.860 --> 50:44.640] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[50:44.800 --> 51:01.240] [SPEAKER_08]: It's completely optimistic if we focus our attention on the right things and, yes, get out of, you know, where so much attention is, we have the possibility of completely, you know, being rebirthed here and reinvented and, you know, absolutely finding where we were and making it glorious again.
[51:01.420 --> 51:02.840] [SPEAKER_08]: WBAI still has so much love.
[51:02.960 --> 51:14.540] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, when I talk to people in New York, it has so much behind it that, you know, it's very easy to see a bright future, but you have got to, like, be focused on the right things and, you know, not organizational distress.
[51:14.800 --> 51:15.680] [SPEAKER_01]: Focus on the future.
[51:15.820 --> 51:18.460] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we have a great past to focus on, but we can't focus on that primarily.
[51:18.680 --> 51:19.960] [SPEAKER_01]: The future we have to look at.
[51:20.020 --> 51:21.660] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people don't even know we're still on the air.
[51:21.720 --> 51:22.380] [SPEAKER_01]: We still exist.
[51:22.500 --> 51:24.320] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's something I think we can all work on.
[51:24.540 --> 51:25.800] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take another listener phone call.
[51:25.900 --> 51:27.820] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2900.
[51:28.000 --> 51:28.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[51:28.460 --> 51:29.780] [SPEAKER_01]: You're on WBAI with Summer Race.
[51:30.940 --> 51:31.260] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[51:31.540 --> 51:32.120] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, speak up, please.
[51:33.120 --> 51:33.440] [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[51:34.040 --> 51:36.200] [SPEAKER_05]: I want to make a comment on the air.
[51:36.380 --> 51:36.700] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[51:41.840 --> 51:42.260] [SPEAKER_05]: New Jersey.
[51:42.640 --> 51:42.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[51:44.640 --> 51:53.660] [SPEAKER_05]: And I just feel like a major, major issue with WBAI is that they really don't cater to the younger generation.
[51:54.740 --> 52:01.080] [SPEAKER_05]: It kind of hangs on to the older generation, let's say, like, 50 years old and older.
[52:01.320 --> 52:05.400] [SPEAKER_05]: And a lot of young kids like me, well, I'm a little different, you know.
[52:05.480 --> 52:09.140] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm totally, like, I'm up for listening to all of this stuff.
[52:09.140 --> 52:16.780] [SPEAKER_05]: But a lot of young people, they want to hear that news, but it's just not put on in the correct way.
[52:18.080 --> 52:19.320] [SPEAKER_01]: What would you change?
[52:21.520 --> 52:27.420] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'd just put a lot more younger people, you know, like 20-year-olds, even teenagers.
[52:27.680 --> 52:30.080] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, they can... and a lot more Internet content.
[52:31.660 --> 52:32.100] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[52:32.180 --> 52:33.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer, what do you think about that?
[52:33.900 --> 52:34.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, hi.
[52:34.840 --> 52:35.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[52:35.260 --> 52:38.560] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that goes back to what I was calling the closed shop mentality.
[52:38.560 --> 52:43.880] [SPEAKER_08]: At most of our radio stations, the programming grid has stayed relatively the same for many years.
[52:43.980 --> 52:46.240] [SPEAKER_08]: And when things get changed, they are...
[52:46.840 --> 52:49.880] [SPEAKER_08]: They're not met happily, but that's because there's no process.
[52:49.880 --> 52:50.800] [SPEAKER_08]: There's no system.
[52:50.800 --> 52:59.720] [SPEAKER_08]: If you have a regular system of evaluating programs and having feedback, and the idea that you will make space available for new talent to get on the air...
[52:59.720 --> 53:01.520] [SPEAKER_08]: We are an educational institution.
[53:01.760 --> 53:06.340] [SPEAKER_08]: And there is an apprenticeship program out at KPFA, but we don't have that at other stations.
[53:06.340 --> 53:10.340] [SPEAKER_08]: I think the way we should be doing it, again, this is about where you expend your resources.
[53:10.560 --> 53:15.400] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you spend them on a few personalities that are on the air so you pay for the talents of just a few people?
[53:15.500 --> 53:28.940] [SPEAKER_08]: Or do you maybe spend them on acquiring more equipment for training and actually invest in training community members to be able to go out and, say, cover news stories or produce their own shows on topics of interest and create collectives?
[53:28.940 --> 53:46.220] [SPEAKER_08]: I think the thing is to have open airtime and space and a process by which you evaluate programs and a focus on being a community radio station that draws from the community on a regular basis so that new talent is nurtured and gets an opportunity to be heard on the air and to work with more experienced people so that you have people paired,
[53:46.240 --> 53:49.340] [SPEAKER_08]: you know, interning with people that have been on the air a long time.
[53:49.700 --> 53:54.840] [SPEAKER_08]: And give people skill sets to be able to go on the air and actually sound decent, be able to, you know, edit and produce.
[53:55.600 --> 53:58.960] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a matter of will and focus and what you think is important.
[53:59.020 --> 54:15.280] [SPEAKER_08]: But, yes, if we remain closed to where everyone is protecting territory, because it's a lot of, in my opinion, a lot of what goes on at different stages of the dynamics in Pacifica, but instead of being an open place and a creative place, then, yes, you won't attract young people because you're not allowing them to do anything with the station.
[54:15.280 --> 54:17.440] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a vibrant dynamic with the public.
[54:17.600 --> 54:26.300] [SPEAKER_08]: They have to be able to come in the station, feel that it's their station, and be able to participate in what goes on the air if you expect them to be participatory and listening to it.
[54:26.480 --> 54:31.040] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what's interesting about this, Summer, is that we're here at WHCR, Harlem Community Radio.
[54:31.380 --> 54:39.040] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, they've given us part of their studios to camp out in until we have something more permanent arranged.
[54:39.260 --> 54:44.360] [SPEAKER_01]: And right now, I'm looking into another studio filled with students that WHCR is teaching.
[54:44.560 --> 54:46.480] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, what we're talking about right now, they're teaching them radio.
[54:46.480 --> 54:49.280] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're all experimenting, using microphones.
[54:49.780 --> 54:53.260] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is great, seeing people getting involved.
[54:53.760 --> 54:55.660] [SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't we doing the same thing?
[54:55.800 --> 55:01.680] [SPEAKER_01]: Or how many of these people maybe will cross over into this room one day and be on a radio station that reaches four different states?
[55:02.180 --> 55:04.200] [SPEAKER_01]: We need that kind of outreach as well.
[55:04.200 --> 55:10.860] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been a long time since I've seen a whole bunch of bright new faces coming into the studios at WBAI.
[55:11.080 --> 55:16.160] [SPEAKER_08]: It requires an institutional sea change and a desire to be that type of institution.
[55:16.480 --> 55:26.240] [SPEAKER_08]: To be one that trains new people up in how to do radio, and not one that says, this is the same hour time slot I've had for the last 40 years, and I refuse to be moved even one inch.
[55:26.480 --> 55:27.640] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's, you know, it's...
[55:27.640 --> 55:31.760] [SPEAKER_08]: Because people feel threatened, and one has to do it in a non-threatening way.
[55:31.760 --> 55:36.720] [SPEAKER_08]: That's embracive of the people that have been there forever also, because it doesn't mean get rid of the shows that have been here a long time.
[55:37.040 --> 55:38.080] [SPEAKER_08]: You don't do it that way.
[55:38.160 --> 55:38.800] [SPEAKER_08]: It should be holistic.
[55:38.800 --> 55:47.400] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you know, the organization, if it is going to continue into the future, obviously, to have a future has to bring in new people.
[55:47.400 --> 55:49.540] [SPEAKER_08]: And that is a big problem within Pacifica.
[55:49.640 --> 55:53.220] [SPEAKER_08]: Our demographic is around 65.
[55:53.780 --> 56:05.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Can I also add, let's say with the premiums, you have premiums that are $50, $100, $200 for like, something so simple, like a set of CDs or a flash drive.
[56:06.240 --> 56:13.100] [SPEAKER_05]: And young people these days, we hear that, and we're just like, that's ridiculous, you know, $100 for a flash drive?
[56:13.340 --> 56:13.740] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I think...
[56:13.740 --> 56:15.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, how much do you pay for a coffee mug on NPR?
[56:16.580 --> 56:18.680] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, NPR is ridiculous as well.
[56:18.680 --> 56:23.240] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you have to start offering things cheaper.
[56:23.720 --> 56:30.280] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you sell more cheap things than you get the money, as compared to selling a few at $100.
[56:30.280 --> 56:31.240] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, go ahead, Summer.
[56:31.700 --> 56:45.500] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I was just going to say, the idea of premiums is that you should be supporting the radio station, and that's why you have to build up the listenership again, because if people are pledging just because they want to get a product, that's not in the long run healthy for the station or for the public.
[56:45.780 --> 56:59.280] [SPEAKER_08]: So, for young people, I've advocated for quite some time that we institute like a Text Us 5 type of program, where you can text us $5 just because you like the show that you just heard, do digital downloads, T-shirts, you know, the things that are inexpensive,
[56:59.280 --> 57:01.120] [SPEAKER_08]: but where you can still support the station.
[57:02.120 --> 57:08.380] [SPEAKER_08]: But the idea, obviously, is that whatever donation should be that, because you're supporting the station, and that you're getting something as a thank you gift.
[57:08.540 --> 57:13.880] [SPEAKER_08]: And depending on the flash drive, you might get a lot of programming on this, because sometimes those flash drives are actually really fantastic.
[57:14.080 --> 57:15.560] [SPEAKER_08]: But I hear you completely.
[57:15.920 --> 57:19.980] [SPEAKER_08]: One needs to have ways for people to be able to support, no matter what's going on for them economically.
[57:19.980 --> 57:25.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just speak to that caller's point, which is a very good question to start with.
[57:25.640 --> 57:41.460] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been on the air here at Off The Hook for 26 years, but when the day comes, when something else comes along that caters to a different kind of an audience, maybe a younger audience or a more relevant audience, I would hope that we would not be obstinate and say,
[57:41.460 --> 57:43.780] [SPEAKER_01]: no, this is our time slot forever and ever.
[57:43.960 --> 57:46.240] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think really that's healthy radio at all.
[57:46.400 --> 57:48.480] [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully we will remain relevant, but we'll see.
[57:48.680 --> 57:50.440] [SPEAKER_01]: I do know this conversation go on forever.
[57:51.160 --> 57:56.040] [SPEAKER_05]: I do want to say that your show is one of the, pretty much one of the ones that's most spot on for young people.
[57:56.180 --> 57:58.100] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we can understand it the most.
[57:58.360 --> 57:59.980] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like very straightforward to the point.
[58:00.160 --> 58:00.600] [SPEAKER_05]: Good to hear.
[58:00.660 --> 58:01.780] [SPEAKER_05]: Younger hacker group.
[58:01.960 --> 58:03.140] [SPEAKER_05]: So thank you very much.
[58:03.300 --> 58:03.580] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[58:03.680 --> 58:07.460] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, remember, WBAI is the only place that would let us do a show in the first place.
[58:07.460 --> 58:07.920] [SPEAKER_01]: But thanks.
[58:08.200 --> 58:09.140] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for those words.
[58:09.460 --> 58:09.880] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer, well...
[58:09.880 --> 58:13.720] [SPEAKER_08]: That's why it's important to save WBAI, because there needs to be a place for hacker shows.
[58:13.860 --> 58:14.320] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm serious.
[58:14.500 --> 58:16.540] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you mean that's why it's important to save the organization?
[58:17.080 --> 58:18.660] [SPEAKER_01]: Summer, are there any final words?
[58:18.720 --> 58:20.020] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we're pretty much out of time here.
[58:20.540 --> 58:23.120] [SPEAKER_01]: You're there, holed up in your office in Berkeley.
[58:23.140 --> 58:24.440] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very unusual situation.
[58:24.880 --> 58:33.460] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not so much so for Pacifica, but it's sort of part of the magic, but something I hope that we get past so that we can start rebuilding the actual radio part of the magic.
[58:34.100 --> 58:36.120] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the part of the magic I want to work on, too.
[58:36.120 --> 58:40.240] [SPEAKER_08]: An organizational structure that's healthy so that we can produce good radio and serve the public.
[58:40.600 --> 58:40.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[58:41.020 --> 58:41.400] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[58:41.500 --> 58:44.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there any email address or any website you want to give out?
[58:44.660 --> 58:44.980] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.
[58:45.180 --> 58:49.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Support KPFA is where you can find a petition to support me.
[58:49.360 --> 58:54.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And I can be reached at summerinthedesert at yahoo.com.
[58:54.620 --> 58:55.040] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, boy.
[58:55.140 --> 58:55.960] [SPEAKER_08]: Because they hijacked my email.
[58:55.980 --> 58:58.220] [SPEAKER_08]: So you can't get my regular email right now through the organization.
[58:58.700 --> 59:00.020] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, your email was hijacked.
[59:00.020 --> 59:00.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[59:00.460 --> 59:00.960] [SPEAKER_01]: How about that?
[59:01.240 --> 59:01.820] [SPEAKER_08]: It sure is.
[59:01.880 --> 59:04.940] [SPEAKER_08]: So don't write summer at Pacifica, because you'll just be talking to Margie Wilkinson.
[59:06.500 --> 59:06.920] So...
[59:06.920 --> 59:07.520] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[59:07.580 --> 59:09.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's interesting.
[59:09.880 --> 59:10.080] [SPEAKER_08]: So...
[59:10.080 --> 59:11.260] [SPEAKER_08]: I would go to support KPFA.
[59:11.280 --> 59:13.300] [SPEAKER_08]: We haven't launched a national website yet.
[59:13.660 --> 59:23.280] [SPEAKER_08]: They took this on and went ahead and started posting everything that was going on in terms of articles, the petition to support me, the recall petition going on with one of the staff reps who voted to do this, you know.
[59:23.440 --> 59:28.380] [SPEAKER_08]: So I would go there, and you'll be kept pretty updated on what's happening with dealing with the situation.
[59:28.380 --> 59:31.440] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Maurice, hang in there and let us know what happens.
[59:31.500 --> 59:37.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully we can continue this conversation at a future date, take more phone calls, and just improve this place.
[59:37.380 --> 59:37.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Make it better.
[59:38.180 --> 59:44.300] [SPEAKER_01]: And whoever is on one faction, we need to work together and build a decent radio network.
[59:44.440 --> 59:46.780] [SPEAKER_01]: Our email address, oth@2600.com.
[59:46.880 --> 59:49.420] [SPEAKER_01]: Another reminder, this Friday, 2600 meetings.
[59:49.460 --> 59:52.060] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to get involved in the Hope Conference, show up to the one in New York City.
[59:52.440 --> 59:54.620] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you there, and we'll see you next week.
[59:54.620 --> 59:55.060] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a good night.
[59:55.060 --> 59:55.120] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next week.
[59:55.520 --> 59:55.840] We'll see you next week.
[59:55.840 --> 59:55.880] We'll see you next week.
[59:55.880 --> 59:56.000] We'll see you next week.
[59:56.000 --> 59:56.080] We'll see you next week.