Off The Hook - 2014-04-23

[00:05.830 --> 00:16.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tune in at midnight on Wednesday, April 23rd for a tribute to Robert Knight, the late host of Earthwatch, trans-terrestrial radio.
[00:16.770 --> 00:31.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen to excerpts of some of his best programs and call in to share your stories, memories, and to pay tribute to one of WBAI Pacifica's veteran producers and exceptional purveyors of the art of radio.
[00:31.830 --> 00:37.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can also send your comments to theknightreport.org.
[00:37.710 --> 00:41.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's Earthwatch, Wednesday, midnight, April 23rd.
[00:42.690 --> 00:45.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: The bell for freedom still rings.
[00:47.470 --> 00:49.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: The bell for freedom still rings.
[00:50.810 --> 00:55.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to live in a world where the only foods you can eat are genetically modified?
[00:55.850 --> 01:03.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Tune in to Take Charge of Your Health on Friday, April 25th to hear a life-changing interview with Jeffrey Smith.
[01:03.850 --> 01:13.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: Smith is the leading spokesperson on the health dangers of genetically modified organisms and best-selling author and filmmaker of Genetic Roulette.
[01:14.110 --> 01:22.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: Millions of people worldwide are getting ready to march against Monsanto on May 24th, while more than 30 states across the U.S.
[01:23.210 --> 01:25.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: have introduced GMO labeling initiatives.
[01:26.290 --> 01:31.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, listen to Take Charge of Your Health, April 25th at 1 p.m.
[01:32.110 --> 01:33.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: Get informed.
[01:33.630 --> 01:37.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: The future of our food and our health depends on it.
[01:42.080 --> 01:44.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: On April 24th at 6.30 p.m.
[01:45.220 --> 01:55.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: at Riverside Church, the campaign to bring Mamiya home will be hosting a Celebration of Life party with light food and drinks and a lot of fun and celebration.
[01:55.360 --> 01:55.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Join us.
[01:56.360 --> 01:58.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mamiya turns 60 years young.
[01:58.280 --> 01:59.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: You don't want to miss this.
[01:59.620 --> 02:00.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: M1 will perform.
[02:01.080 --> 02:04.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: We will have bus tickets for the April 26th block party.
[02:04.160 --> 02:12.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Contact us at 866-745-6963 or bringmamiahome.com.
[02:18.400 --> 02:20.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Join the Celebration.
[02:20.220 --> 02:21.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's have some fun.
[02:23.100 --> 02:25.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[02:25.540 --> 02:28.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: The time is 7 o'clock time once again for Off The Hook.
[02:33.660 --> 02:44.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call If
[02:49.780 --> 02:55.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm for the best, it's paid for worst I hope that's understood When diddly boom
[03:13.110 --> 03:17.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh yeah, it's the dubbed version of Off The Hook here on WBAI.
[03:17.910 --> 03:18.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Welcome.
[03:18.870 --> 03:21.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Welcome to another Wednesday evening of fun.
[03:21.150 --> 03:24.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you joined tonight by Mike.
[03:24.410 --> 03:24.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi there.
[03:24.910 --> 03:26.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: You were blaming the wind for being late.
[03:26.750 --> 03:27.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that what you were doing?
[03:27.670 --> 03:27.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[03:28.170 --> 03:28.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[03:28.510 --> 03:28.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Blame nature.
[03:29.250 --> 03:29.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: I will.
[03:29.950 --> 03:36.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I could have left five minutes earlier but if I had left at the time I did leave and there had been less wind, I would have been here earlier.
[03:36.690 --> 03:39.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I like to blame the clouds, but we'll get to that later.
[03:39.950 --> 03:41.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're also joined by Rob T.
[03:41.430 --> 03:41.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Firefly.
[03:42.090 --> 03:42.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[03:42.890 --> 03:43.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: I like to blame it on the rain.
[03:44.410 --> 03:45.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Blame what on the rain?
[03:45.090 --> 03:45.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: You were here on time.
[03:46.430 --> 03:47.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I'll blame that on the rain.
[03:47.650 --> 03:47.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[03:48.750 --> 03:49.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll leave that to the listeners.
[03:49.810 --> 03:51.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bernie S., where are you late from?
[03:51.850 --> 03:53.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm actually in Philadelphia tonight.
[03:53.390 --> 03:56.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I blame the cloud for a lot of problems.
[03:56.210 --> 03:58.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's sort of what I was trying to say, but you said it better.
[03:59.430 --> 04:03.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: And yes, we have a special program tonight.
[04:03.030 --> 04:11.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, this programming note will be devoting the last part of this program to remembering our colleague Robert Knight, who passed away this last week.
[04:11.590 --> 04:13.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: You've probably heard that on these airwaves.
[04:13.650 --> 04:16.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you only listen to this show, then maybe you haven't heard it yet.
[04:16.310 --> 04:24.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: But he was one of the giants at this place and someone that I was proud to work with on many occasions.
[04:24.410 --> 04:34.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we have things to talk about concerning the hacker world, concerning various bits of technology and the stupidity that sometimes goes with it.
[04:34.850 --> 04:37.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we just delight in talking about that.
[04:37.650 --> 04:41.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: But something that actually is pretty cool is our new Hope website.
[04:41.930 --> 04:42.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have you guys seen this?
[04:43.070 --> 04:43.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have.
[04:43.630 --> 04:45.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's pretty cool.
[04:46.270 --> 04:47.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's also pretty.
[04:47.370 --> 04:47.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's pretty.
[04:48.090 --> 04:49.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's everything that we're not used to.
[04:50.570 --> 04:53.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, hackers always have the most ugly websites, but not anymore.
[04:54.150 --> 04:54.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not anymore.
[04:54.730 --> 05:01.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you go to www.hope.net or x.hope.net or all those Xs that we registered, I can't remember how many there are.
[05:02.050 --> 05:02.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think, what, 17?
[05:02.770 --> 05:02.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: 18.
[05:03.010 --> 05:03.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: 18?
[05:03.870 --> 05:04.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is it 17 or 18?
[05:04.750 --> 05:05.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, it's one of those.
[05:05.350 --> 05:05.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you know what?
[05:05.930 --> 05:07.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's even a longer one.
[05:07.750 --> 05:15.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you get the current edition of 2600 hidden on the cover someplace, you'll see the really long URL of Xs.
[05:15.090 --> 05:19.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you can count the number of Xs in that, you won't gain anything from it because it'll just go to the same website.
[05:20.410 --> 05:24.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if you go to that website, x.hope.net is probably the easiest way to remember it.
[05:24.410 --> 05:38.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: You'll see our conference website with everything that you would possibly want to know about the upcoming Hope Conference this July 18th through 20th, Hotel Pennsylvania, New York City.
[05:40.610 --> 05:44.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you'll see pictures of dissidents of various sorts.
[05:44.670 --> 05:46.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: So dissent, that's our theme.
[05:46.330 --> 05:49.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not a theme that we ran into.
[05:49.590 --> 05:51.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a theme that kind of embraced us.
[05:51.350 --> 05:54.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: We realize that almost everything we do is some level of dissent.
[05:54.510 --> 05:56.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: This radio show is dissent.
[05:56.810 --> 05:58.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: The magazine is dissent.
[05:58.130 --> 05:59.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: The conference is dissent.
[05:59.810 --> 06:04.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Our very existence seems to be dissent in one form or another.
[06:04.230 --> 06:07.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know if I can accept that assertion without really questioning it.
[06:07.150 --> 06:09.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, because you're dissenting the concept of dissent.
[06:10.050 --> 06:12.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, and that's where it all sort of falls apart.
[06:12.250 --> 06:12.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[06:12.650 --> 06:18.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if you go to that website, you'll see some famous dissidents of the past and present.
[06:18.970 --> 06:20.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's well worth a look.
[06:21.030 --> 06:30.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: In fact, there are really well-written pieces on each of them, which I was reading the other day and learning quite a bit, actually.
[06:30.270 --> 06:34.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it's one of our better sites, I have to say, that we've introduced over the years.
[06:34.750 --> 06:38.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hope that people listening can make it because it's going to be fascinating.
[06:38.470 --> 06:39.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's going to be amazing.
[06:39.950 --> 06:42.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we have a lot to look forward to.
[06:43.890 --> 06:44.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, we do.
[06:44.750 --> 06:51.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I saw on our internal mailing list just today, but there's like fewer than 90 days left.
[06:52.170 --> 06:53.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, 85, I think.
[06:53.590 --> 06:54.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that right, Bernie?
[06:54.750 --> 06:55.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: 85 days.
[06:55.950 --> 06:58.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's two months and 24 days to go.
[06:58.230 --> 07:00.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: He spent the better part of the morning doing the calculations.
[07:00.490 --> 07:03.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: And 85 days are left before the help conference begins.
[07:04.470 --> 07:05.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: We better get our act together.
[07:05.890 --> 07:07.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: We better start organizing, yeah.
[07:08.290 --> 07:11.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, actually, there are people in closed rooms right now organizing.
[07:12.010 --> 07:13.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: So don't worry about that.
[07:14.750 --> 07:18.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've got a room full of an infinite amount of monkeys with an infinite amount of typewriters.
[07:18.510 --> 07:20.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we'll have a conference at some point.
[07:20.610 --> 07:23.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, people can't see this, but my chair just went down about a foot.
[07:24.170 --> 07:27.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm practically on the floor trying to talk into the microphone here.
[07:27.390 --> 07:28.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was short to begin with.
[07:28.410 --> 07:29.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now it's really...
[07:29.270 --> 07:30.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hope it doesn't go down any further.
[07:31.830 --> 07:33.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, so we have some stories.
[07:33.590 --> 07:35.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Again, it's going to be a bit abbreviated.
[07:35.530 --> 07:37.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're going to take phone calls maybe at about 20 after.
[07:37.770 --> 07:40.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'd like to hear from people who are hopefully listening to us.
[07:40.830 --> 07:44.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we have some stories that I think are pretty fascinating.
[07:45.390 --> 07:51.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: This whole Supreme Court case on the company known as Aereo has caught my attention.
[07:51.650 --> 08:02.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're the company that puts up all these little antennas in various cities and then charges people money to watch free television in those cities.
[08:02.130 --> 08:17.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the broadcasters are going bananas over this saying that they're getting away with ripping them off, taking their copyrighted content and not compensating the networks for it while at the same time charging consumers a la cable TV.
[08:18.210 --> 08:20.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's gone all the way to the Supreme Court.
[08:21.070 --> 08:34.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what the Supreme Court seems to be saying is that they don't quite understand what Aereo is all about or at least they don't seem to approve at this stage, at least from the quotes I'm reading.
[08:34.530 --> 08:37.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here's one from Justice Stephen Breyer.
[08:37.350 --> 08:43.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: It looks as if somehow you are escaping a constraint that's imposed upon other companies.
[08:43.710 --> 08:45.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what disturbs everyone.
[08:47.050 --> 08:53.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg says, you are the only player so far that doesn't pay any royalties at this stage.
[08:53.330 --> 08:55.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's not exactly... that's not encouraging, I guess.
[08:55.850 --> 09:02.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, you know, in the Supreme Court, you do get asked a lot of challenging questions, and no doubt they're trying to get to the bottom of all this.
[09:03.450 --> 09:06.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I'd like for us to weigh in here as to...
[09:06.290 --> 09:13.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've talked about this company before, but Bernie, you specifically seem to have some opinions on the worth and value of this company.
[09:14.370 --> 09:16.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, this is really a fascinating case, Emmanuel.
[09:16.910 --> 09:18.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's going to affect all of us, frankly.
[09:18.490 --> 09:24.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it goes... the case law goes all the way back to the mid-70s, the Sony Betamax case.
[09:24.250 --> 09:26.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: So this is really interesting stuff.
[09:27.670 --> 09:36.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: Basically, what Aereo is doing, to clarify what you said, is they're not selling broadcasters over-the-air TV content.
[09:36.510 --> 09:54.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: They are renting customers a little antenna, a TV antenna, and a virtual DVR, so that you can log into your Aereo account and watch just the local channels that are in the market where your Aereo antenna is located.
[09:54.790 --> 10:01.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the Supreme Court justices seem to have trouble wrapping their technologically challenged minds around that.
[10:02.130 --> 10:05.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, in fairness, let's listen to what they had to say.
[10:05.490 --> 10:13.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Justice Roberts said, there's no technological reason for you to have 10,000 dime-sized antennas other than to get around the copyright laws.
[10:13.650 --> 10:15.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, do you think that's an inaccurate statement?
[10:16.210 --> 10:19.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, there probably are some technical reasons, too, and he started to go...
[10:19.230 --> 10:28.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: the attorney started to go into that, but, you know, good luck trying to explain that to the judges that they can't even understand the basic concept of renting the antenna is not the same as selling...
[10:28.930 --> 10:30.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: as renting content.
[10:30.670 --> 10:40.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: But bottom line is, yes, the Aereo is using technology to avoid breaking the law, breaking copyright law.
[10:40.670 --> 10:42.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't see a problem with that, do you?
[10:43.710 --> 10:50.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: The thing about Aereo, I think maybe it could be explained a little more simply for those who don't know what's going on.
[10:50.670 --> 11:05.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Basically, theoretically, and there are laws of space and time which might prevent this from happening, but theoretically, you could take your TV antenna, a regular antenna that receives free signals off the air, run a really long extension cord, put your antenna up in a different city to the one in which you live,
[11:05.870 --> 11:10.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: go back home and watch the free stuff that would be caught by that antenna.
[11:11.110 --> 11:17.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what Aereo claims they're doing is basically offering the infrastructure for you to just rent one of their antennas.
[11:17.730 --> 11:27.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Each one of their thousands of antennas is ostensibly connected to one of their customers, meaning they're not pulling in content and mass broadcasting it, they're just letting you use one of their antennas.
[11:28.510 --> 11:32.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's an important difference, though, between what you said and what Aereo is doing.
[11:32.230 --> 11:35.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Aereo will only sell its service to people who are already in the broadcast area.
[11:35.730 --> 11:40.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you can't use Aereo, as I understand it, to watch television from a different city.
[11:40.650 --> 11:40.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[11:41.010 --> 11:43.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's all the same television anyway, but you can't do it.
[11:43.450 --> 11:47.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is the thing I really have trouble grasping because I do this all the time.
[11:48.470 --> 11:50.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And people in Canada do this all the time.
[11:50.350 --> 11:52.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have what's known as time shifting.
[11:52.610 --> 11:55.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can watch a television station in Edmonton.
[11:55.530 --> 11:58.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you live in Toronto, it's not a big deal.
[11:58.110 --> 12:02.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can see the advertisements for used car salesmen in a different city, in a different province.
[12:02.370 --> 12:08.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: In our country, we go ballistic when something like that is at risk of happening.
[12:08.930 --> 12:10.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't understand why.
[12:10.410 --> 12:12.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess they want you to see the local advertising only.
[12:12.810 --> 12:13.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you know what?
[12:13.190 --> 12:16.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it all evens out in the wash one way or another.
[12:16.490 --> 12:27.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: My real question here, though, with what Service Aereo is providing, they are providing something that is over the air that you don't pay for if you have an antenna.
[12:27.790 --> 12:28.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have an antenna.
[12:28.470 --> 12:43.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, the reason why you don't put up your own antenna and get this service for nothing is, I guess, maybe not having access to the outside, not having a building in the way that can prevent the digital signal from getting through clearly.
[12:43.590 --> 12:45.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know this personally.
[12:45.210 --> 12:49.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've had severe trouble in the city getting TV reception now that they've switched over to digital.
[12:50.130 --> 12:52.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I could see why somebody would want this.
[12:53.050 --> 13:02.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: It being a free, over-the-air service in the first place, what right do the free, over-the-air broadcasters have to expect payment for this?
[13:02.990 --> 13:05.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I stand corrected on the multi-city thing.
[13:05.530 --> 13:06.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: I thought that was a thing.
[13:06.690 --> 13:14.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: But so what we're really talking about here is still renting the equipment to pull in something that you could get under your own means if you had the equipment.
[13:15.110 --> 13:20.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And so if you have an antenna and a DVR and all that setup, you don't need Aereo.
[13:20.650 --> 13:25.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: But if you don't have that and you'd like to use it, Aereo wants you to pay them to use one of theirs.
[13:25.750 --> 13:33.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Which, you know, if it makes sense for you to rent a bicycle or a car or any other appliance, what's different about an antenna that's pulling in the same stuff?
[13:33.990 --> 13:42.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's say I have a room in Midtown Manhattan and I rent that room out by the hour for people to go inside and watch television.
[13:43.190 --> 13:43.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right?
[13:43.950 --> 13:51.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Am I in violation of the copyright in the eyes of the television networks because I'm not paying them to provide this service?
[13:51.890 --> 13:55.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a bizarre parallel, but I think it's one that should be addressed.
[13:56.230 --> 13:58.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: You might be in violation of the housing code.
[13:58.390 --> 13:58.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, fine.
[13:59.110 --> 13:59.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know what?
[13:59.490 --> 14:03.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: You call a cop about that, but I'm still going to challenge the broadcasters.
[14:04.190 --> 14:09.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, I see that point, too, because cable companies pay them to do this.
[14:09.810 --> 14:13.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: They pay the broadcasters to carry local channels.
[14:14.050 --> 14:15.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think that's valid.
[14:15.810 --> 14:17.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think that was valid in the past.
[14:17.670 --> 14:29.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bernie, maybe you could inform us on this, but when cable television first started way back, weren't there such things as must-carry channels that the cable providers had to provide?
[14:29.430 --> 14:32.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it wasn't something that they paid for.
[14:32.550 --> 14:33.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was something they were required to do.
[14:34.210 --> 14:38.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, when cable TV started in Pennsylvania, I might add, by the Blue Ridge Cable TV Company.
[14:39.110 --> 14:39.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, really?
[14:39.650 --> 14:41.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: In Northeastern Pennsylvania, yep.
[14:41.550 --> 14:42.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a fact, folks.
[14:42.610 --> 14:43.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have a...
[14:43.050 --> 14:45.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, that's going to be on the quiz later.
[14:45.190 --> 14:49.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: There were no regulations on this, and the cable provider didn't have to provide it.
[14:49.370 --> 14:51.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was really kind of a master TV antenna system.
[14:51.630 --> 14:54.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: They didn't really have to provide any channels.
[14:54.550 --> 14:59.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: But then the broadcaster said, oh, no, you've got to carry this channel because we're in the broadcast range.
[14:59.990 --> 15:01.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: You've got to carry that if you're a cable company.
[15:01.690 --> 15:03.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, yes, there was a requirement like that.
[15:04.830 --> 15:06.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then they started saying other things.
[15:06.910 --> 15:10.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: But to answer your question, which you posed, now I've already got a chance to answer your question.
[15:10.050 --> 15:23.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you were to charge people to come into your house to watch your TV, violation of the law, because that could be interpreted as a public performance as opposed to a private performance.
[15:23.470 --> 15:35.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you invite a bunch of people, as the Supreme Court Justice has brought up, one example, if you invite a bunch of people over to your home to watch Super Bowl on broadcast TV, which you're pulling in through an antenna for free, that is not a violation.
[15:36.050 --> 15:39.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: But if you're charging people for that, yes.
[15:39.650 --> 15:53.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, I mean, if you're running the Airbnb and you're running out the apartment and ostensibly not for them to watch the TV programming, which would possibly constitute a public performance, then that would be different.
[15:54.070 --> 15:56.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: I know it's complicated, but copyright law is complicated.
[15:57.210 --> 16:02.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, in case any Supreme Court justices are listening, we do want to try and make the whole case a little bit simpler to understand.
[16:02.930 --> 16:07.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, for instance, a hotel advertising that they have televisions in their room.
[16:09.650 --> 16:12.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: broadcasters for sharing that signal.
[16:12.790 --> 16:15.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes, but they pay the provider of those local...
[16:15.650 --> 16:18.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: They provide the local cable TV company for that, which then...
[16:18.650 --> 16:20.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, you're assuming the hotel has cable TV.
[16:20.490 --> 16:23.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: What if the hotel simply has the signal coming from the sky?
[16:24.070 --> 16:25.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are some TV...
[16:25.550 --> 16:32.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are some, like, little hotels and motels that still have master TV antenna systems, especially ones out in rural areas where there is no cable TV.
[16:32.690 --> 16:34.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are hotels in areas without cable TV.
[16:35.270 --> 16:41.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: They are sort of skirting the existing copyright regulations if they're not paying something for that.
[16:41.510 --> 16:44.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, the broadcasters could argue that they are doing that.
[16:44.670 --> 16:52.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I don't know of any hotels that have little tiny fleabag hotels out in the middle of nowhere that have been prosecuted under that.
[16:52.330 --> 16:57.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, my main point here is that copyright restrictions are out of control.
[16:57.350 --> 17:01.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're insane and they're just getting worse and worse with the improvement of technology.
[17:02.070 --> 17:05.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: And anything that challenges those is worth a good look.
[17:05.730 --> 17:11.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: In this particular case, we are talking about signals that are broadcast for nothing.
[17:11.270 --> 17:14.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you have an antenna, you can watch it for nothing.
[17:14.530 --> 17:21.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that's a fundamental problem I have understanding how these broadcasters think they're entitled to a dime.
[17:21.550 --> 17:24.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully, that's the way the justices will see this.
[17:25.430 --> 17:35.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: Emmanuel, did you hear that two big broadcasters were threatening that if this decision goes in Ariel's favor, that they're going to shut down their stations or networks and go off the air?
[17:35.390 --> 17:35.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Did you hear that?
[17:35.730 --> 17:36.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, CBS was one of them.
[17:36.770 --> 17:42.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: They said they were going to go to, I think, online only or cable only or something like that, but not over the air, yes.
[17:42.470 --> 17:43.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't believe them for a minute.
[17:44.870 --> 17:46.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, maybe they should.
[17:46.750 --> 17:53.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe they should just give the signal to somebody else that doesn't have such a problem with people watching the signal.
[17:54.010 --> 17:54.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know?
[17:55.830 --> 17:57.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: The airways belong to the people.
[17:57.790 --> 18:00.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, it's been a long time since I've heard that said, but it's still true.
[18:00.250 --> 18:06.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if they don't want people to watch their airwaves without paying for it, they ought to hand it to somebody else.
[18:07.330 --> 18:19.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I gotta say, as, you know, one of this crowd here in this room and also on the phone who produce a program that airs over radio waves, we like when people listen to our content.
[18:20.090 --> 18:29.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: We like when people, you know, re-broadcast our content, re-host our MP3s, do whatever with it because we do this for you to listen to and we do this for everyone possible to listen to.
[18:30.670 --> 18:33.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: That should be the reason why people broadcast.
[18:33.610 --> 18:33.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: True.
[18:34.170 --> 18:36.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: How will you ever sell cars with that attitude?
[18:36.470 --> 18:45.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, if you want to sell cars or make a lot of money, then you have something that people pay for, a premium channel or pay-per-view or you sell commercials.
[18:45.890 --> 18:50.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, people are forgetting these guys are making a ton of money by selling commercials in the first place.
[18:50.410 --> 18:55.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I don't understand the objection to this.
[18:55.190 --> 19:03.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: PBS stations, they have more people watching their begaphons, you know, that wouldn't be able to do so if they didn't use Aria to get the signal in the first place.
[19:03.030 --> 19:05.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: The whole thing, such a big waste of time.
[19:05.890 --> 19:11.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's just an indication of how reality doesn't seem to sync with our world much of the time.
[19:11.390 --> 19:12.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here's another example of that.
[19:12.650 --> 19:14.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Buffalo Bills, they're a football team.
[19:14.390 --> 19:24.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's strange enough, but they're very popular and they recently were sued for sending text messages.
[19:24.470 --> 19:25.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Get this.
[19:25.230 --> 19:32.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: In 2014, actually, this is a story about a player which I don't want to get into.
[19:32.910 --> 19:33.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, okay.
[19:33.230 --> 19:35.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: How about this year, a U.S.
[19:35.410 --> 19:54.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: district judge issued a preliminary approval to a $3 million settlement in a 2012 class action lawsuit filed against a team by Jerry Wolczyk, a Bills fan who claimed the franchise violated the agreement of its opt-in texting service.
[19:54.590 --> 20:02.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: According to the Buffalo News, the suit claims the Buffalo Bills promised no more than five text messages would be disseminated to fans each week.
[20:02.870 --> 20:15.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, when Wolczyk received 13 texts over a two-week span, that's three more than they were supposed to get, he filed suit on behalf of the nearly 40,000 fans who subscribe to the service.
[20:16.370 --> 20:24.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: The settlement, which will be paid out in gift cards to the team's store or the team's website, was approved in a Tampa Bay, Florida court last week.
[20:24.150 --> 20:30.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Up to $2.5 million in vouchers will go to the estimated 39,750 fans who signed up for the service.
[20:30.690 --> 20:33.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Remaining funds will be distributed to Wolczyk's attorneys.
[20:33.790 --> 20:39.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: They made $562,500 and the plaintiff himself made five grand off of this.
[20:41.810 --> 20:42.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm speechless.
[20:43.070 --> 20:43.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is real.
[20:44.170 --> 20:49.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: This really happened because this guy got three extra text messages that he signed up for in the first place.
[20:50.030 --> 20:53.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: He can file this kind of a lawsuit and it's taken...
[20:53.050 --> 20:55.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought this was a joke, but this is real.
[20:55.610 --> 20:56.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who cares if you get...
[20:56.770 --> 21:02.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I don't like spam, but if I sign up for it, I'm not going to be surprised if I get a couple of messages.
[21:03.490 --> 21:06.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: The reason you might care is some people pay per text message.
[21:06.170 --> 21:08.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Then you don't sign up for a service like this.
[21:08.510 --> 21:12.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the cost of three extra text messages is what, 30 cents?
[21:12.710 --> 21:13.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean...
[21:13.290 --> 21:14.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm in the worst situation.
[21:14.870 --> 21:15.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I suppose maybe.
[21:17.150 --> 21:17.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bernie, you had something?
[21:18.470 --> 21:20.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said there was a contract here.
[21:20.130 --> 21:21.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's a breach of contract.
[21:21.310 --> 21:23.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think it was five text messages per week and he got 13.
[21:23.950 --> 21:24.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Isn't that right?
[21:25.450 --> 21:26.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Isn't that what you said?
[21:26.250 --> 21:28.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: But in any case, what if he's paying for his text messages?
[21:28.770 --> 21:30.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Not everybody has unlimited texting.
[21:30.450 --> 21:38.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you know, you have to be some kind of bonehead to like sign up for something that sends you text messages when you have to pay for every text message and an extra three?
[21:40.150 --> 21:54.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: I want to know why the Buffalo Bills were not charged with violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act for unauthorized use of computer, namely the smartphone of the recipient who received more messages than he was promised.
[21:54.450 --> 22:00.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can't see your face, Bernie, have to do a lot of soul-searching.
[22:00.450 --> 22:01.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, there's a lot of irony here.
[22:01.530 --> 22:01.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[22:02.030 --> 22:11.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: People who do very little who weren't making money are being charged with violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, yet this is a wholesale violation, and it frankly was fraud.
[22:11.790 --> 22:19.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: They said, we're only going to send you this many, and we sent you more, and it's costing the recipients money, and I have no sympathy for the Buffalo Bills.
[22:19.650 --> 22:22.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't have sympathy for Major League Football or anything like that.
[22:22.890 --> 22:23.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's not the point.
[22:23.730 --> 22:33.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: The point is, this is silly and stupid, and in 2014, I dare say there are very few people that have to pay for every single text message, especially a number that low.
[22:34.150 --> 22:39.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'd like to know, can I file suit against CNN because they keep sending me stupid texts.
[22:39.410 --> 22:40.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just wanted to get news headlines.
[22:41.210 --> 22:41.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know what I got the other day?
[22:41.950 --> 22:49.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I got something saying, breaking news, the press conference in Malaysia says there is no new development.
[22:49.570 --> 22:51.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: I got a text message telling me there was no news.
[22:52.470 --> 22:56.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And yeah, if I had to pay for that, that should be good for a few million bucks, don't you think?
[22:56.470 --> 22:57.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's ridiculous.
[22:57.470 --> 22:58.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good luck with your lawsuit.
[22:58.310 --> 22:59.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but I mean, this is silly.
[23:00.010 --> 23:05.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: No matter what you think of the Buffalo Bills or the NFL or whatever, this is really, really silly.
[23:05.630 --> 23:11.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's just amazing that this is the kind of thing that gets entertained in court while real meaningful cases get thrown out.
[23:11.790 --> 23:24.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I think if they let this football franchise with its three extra text messages squeak by, then the next time some spammer comes along and wants to SMS everybody, they could point to that and say, look, you know, you didn't bite them for it.
[23:24.550 --> 23:25.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why am I getting in trouble?
[23:25.070 --> 23:30.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, but a spammer, yeah, a spammer I see as different because you're not asking to get messages from them, right?
[23:30.910 --> 23:36.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: You did ask to get information from these guys, so what if it was a really big week for them?
[23:36.530 --> 23:43.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, they had, I don't know, seven players that all of a sudden got injured and they wanted to send a text message about each one.
[23:44.010 --> 23:49.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do they have to wait till next week to tell you something that happened last week because they said they were only going to send five messages a week?
[23:49.950 --> 23:51.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Emmanuel, it's a very slippery slope.
[23:51.390 --> 24:02.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we allow football clubs to send more than three extra text messages a week, then we might allow baseball teams to send five and cricket teams to send seven and before you know it, you know, it could go crazy.
[24:02.830 --> 24:03.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, here's the thing.
[24:03.870 --> 24:08.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can send Twitter to send messages to your phone, a text message, same basic thing.
[24:09.370 --> 24:16.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can I file suit against some people on Twitter because they tweet relentlessly and they don't shut up and I have to pay for every single one of those messages?
[24:16.450 --> 24:20.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have an agreement with them that they will send you a maximum per week, then yes.
[24:20.470 --> 24:21.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Otherwise, probably not.
[24:21.590 --> 24:22.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, boy.
[24:22.450 --> 24:25.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, maybe it's an implied agreement, but wow, this is pretty silly.
[24:25.910 --> 24:28.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Something else that also I thought was kind of comical.
[24:28.670 --> 24:40.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lawsuit filed by Academy Award winning screenwriter celebrated director Quentin Tarantino against the Gawker website for linking to a script for a future movie project was dismissed yesterday by a federal judge.
[24:40.770 --> 24:45.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Back in January, Gawker posted links to the script for The Hateful Eight, an unproduced Western.
[24:46.510 --> 24:50.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tarantino failed to prove that it was an act of direct copyright infringement.
[24:50.830 --> 24:54.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's according to Judge John Walter of the Central District of California.
[24:54.770 --> 24:59.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Judge said he would allow Tarantino's attorney to amend arguments and refile the complaint by May 1st.
[24:59.950 --> 25:02.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, Gawker didn't actually post the script to its own site.
[25:03.690 --> 25:08.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tarantino's attorney charged the script would not have been widely accessible if Gawker had not linked to it.
[25:08.830 --> 25:09.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it was on a different site.
[25:10.010 --> 25:10.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Gawker linked to it.
[25:10.830 --> 25:13.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Gawker got blamed for it being revealed.
[25:14.610 --> 25:18.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Gawker turned down repeated requests to remove links to download the script.
[25:19.230 --> 25:22.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's something that I would agree with.
[25:23.630 --> 25:26.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: A link is not the same as hosted content.
[25:26.290 --> 25:27.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's something that we fought in court.
[25:27.770 --> 25:32.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, we also lost that fight, but it's something that needs to be challenged.
[25:32.790 --> 25:42.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tarantino told the gossip site Deadline that he had given the script to only six people, including actors Michael Madsen, who's best known as the killer in Reservoir Dogs.
[25:42.210 --> 25:43.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Weren't they all killers in Reservoir Dogs?
[25:43.990 --> 25:44.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know.
[25:44.970 --> 25:47.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: As well as Bruce Dern, Tim Roth.
[25:48.370 --> 25:50.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Reservoir Dogs was Roth's breakthrough film.
[25:50.250 --> 25:51.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know how that's related to the story.
[25:51.730 --> 25:52.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's kind of very relevant.
[25:53.130 --> 25:54.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Somehow the script leaked.
[25:54.910 --> 25:56.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I would look to one of those six people.
[25:56.430 --> 26:01.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was posted through a site that lets users anonymously upload and download files.
[26:02.810 --> 26:05.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because anonymity, that's the problem here.
[26:06.070 --> 26:13.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now CNN, which is where we're getting this story, they attempted to reach Tarantino for comment but were completely unsuccessful and Gawker did not mention the decision on its website.
[26:14.230 --> 26:22.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: But according to CNN affiliate KTLA, Tarantino held a three-hour reading of the script over the weekend and told audience members he was working on changes to it.
[26:23.370 --> 26:28.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And although he had spoken of shelving the project when the links to the script were posted, he said making the film is still possible.
[26:28.810 --> 26:32.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't see how it makes a difference if people know what's going to be in the film.
[26:32.770 --> 26:34.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like adapting a book.
[26:34.510 --> 26:36.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: You don't have to give up the whole project.
[26:36.290 --> 26:38.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: But what a silly lawsuit that was.
[26:38.970 --> 26:41.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Fortunately, that one was dismissed although it might come back.
[26:41.810 --> 26:48.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: But just because something is leaked does not mean that certainly the sites linking to it are not guilty.
[26:49.130 --> 26:58.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I mean this is a very important fact of the Internet that you do not control content that other people host and just pointing out the fact that it's there should not be a crime.
[26:59.070 --> 27:07.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, we're telling you now over the airwaves that this script exists whatever the name is and you could probably find it on the net now by putting that info into a search engine.
[27:07.850 --> 27:08.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: So now we're liable.
[27:08.710 --> 27:10.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: So now I guess it's our fault too.
[27:10.890 --> 27:13.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sorry, Quentin Tarantino that you're such a bad filmmaker.
[27:13.370 --> 27:15.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, a lot more people did not just say that.
[27:16.130 --> 27:18.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot more people listen to our show than read Gawker.
[27:18.310 --> 27:18.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's for sure.
[27:19.530 --> 27:19.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: So...
[27:19.930 --> 27:21.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I listen to our show and I don't read Gawker.
[27:21.630 --> 27:21.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[27:22.230 --> 27:22.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[27:22.630 --> 27:23.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know what we've opened up here.
[27:24.730 --> 27:25.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, Bernie.
[27:25.870 --> 27:37.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: I just want to say Quentin Tarantino should have practiced better information security by sending his scripts around to six untrusted people or at least they trust he shouldn't have trusted them all apparently.
[27:38.010 --> 27:41.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: You just called Bruce Dern untrustable, Michael Madsen and...
[27:41.810 --> 27:43.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Somebody leaked it.
[27:43.250 --> 27:44.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Somebody he gave it to leaked it.
[27:44.350 --> 27:50.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or maybe there was more copies that he didn't tell anybody about that maybe it was his own mistake he gave one to somebody on the street.
[27:50.210 --> 27:50.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who knows?
[27:50.790 --> 27:51.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: But there was no...
[27:51.690 --> 27:58.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: The bottom line is there was no copyrighted content in the URL that Gawker published.
[27:58.170 --> 27:59.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's all that really matters, I think.
[27:59.850 --> 28:01.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: Otherwise, we're going to be in a lot of trouble.
[28:02.050 --> 28:02.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[28:02.350 --> 28:08.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can't copyright a URL anymore that you could copyright like geocaching coordinates somewhere.
[28:08.390 --> 28:12.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: You could tell somebody that if you go to these coordinates on the Earth's surface you'll find a thing.
[28:13.710 --> 28:17.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: You should not be able to copyright or control or block that information from being disseminated.
[28:17.810 --> 28:21.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's why we have to fight all these copyright cases because they want to be able to do that.
[28:21.750 --> 28:26.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: They want to be able to copyright URLs and numbers and colors and whatever they can possibly copyright.
[28:27.790 --> 28:28.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[28:28.310 --> 28:30.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have this interesting story.
[28:30.430 --> 28:33.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sure we've heard about this because this is actually a trending topic.
[28:33.910 --> 28:36.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this has been in all the mass media lately.
[28:37.670 --> 28:38.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: NYPD.
[28:38.190 --> 28:44.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, they thought it would be a good idea to have people post pictures of themselves posing with cops.
[28:44.950 --> 28:46.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Kind of a pleasant feel-good story.
[28:46.830 --> 28:48.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Didn't quite work out that way.
[28:49.230 --> 28:50.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: They suggested...
[28:50.490 --> 28:52.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently they didn't understand how Twitter works.
[28:52.990 --> 28:57.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: But they suggested using a hashtag of my NYPD.
[28:57.890 --> 29:10.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what they wound up getting were a bunch of pictures that they probably didn't want to have shared of, well, police arresting people, fighting protesters, being abusive.
[29:10.810 --> 29:14.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Any kind of criticism you could possibly imagine, it's being posted now.
[29:14.950 --> 29:16.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they can't do anything about it.
[29:16.590 --> 29:17.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because guess what?
[29:17.290 --> 29:26.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the words of one of the tweeters responding to this, just because you created a hashtag doesn't mean you own it.
[29:26.730 --> 29:33.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: So if you go to pound sign my NYPD, you'll see whatever people post under that particular hashtag.
[29:33.530 --> 29:37.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: And some of it is really not very positive to the NYPD.
[29:38.170 --> 29:39.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think the NYPD made two mistakes.
[29:40.070 --> 29:44.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: One is not understanding how the Internet works and the ever-present existence of trolls.
[29:44.830 --> 29:51.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the other mistake I think they made is that the NYPD communications office seems to think that people like the NYPD.
[29:51.410 --> 29:53.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in my experience, at least, that's a terrible mistake.
[29:54.110 --> 29:54.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you know what?
[29:54.910 --> 29:56.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of people do like the NYPD.
[29:56.490 --> 29:57.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we have to face that fact.
[29:58.650 --> 30:00.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: We don't represent everybody.
[30:00.270 --> 30:04.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if you go to Times Square, you'll see a lot of tourists there that really would like to pose with the NYPD.
[30:04.590 --> 30:05.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are lots of good cops, too.
[30:06.290 --> 30:09.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: But there's also the other side of that.
[30:09.450 --> 30:10.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is a good thing.
[30:10.810 --> 30:12.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is a good thing that it's getting out there.
[30:12.250 --> 30:16.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And to their credit, they have said publicly, we have no intention of trying to stop this.
[30:16.530 --> 30:18.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, they wouldn't be able to if they did.
[30:18.550 --> 30:20.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: But saying that from the start, that's a plus.
[30:20.890 --> 30:27.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: That says that they did learn something or they do have some basic amount of knowledge as to how free speech works on the net.
[30:27.970 --> 30:28.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Rob?
[30:28.270 --> 30:39.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just have a lot of trouble figuring out what they wanted to accomplish with this in the best circumstances because the NYPD are not known for being all that tolerant of people photographing them either.
[30:40.090 --> 30:49.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's a very good website out there called Photography is Not a Crime that catalogs these incidents where people have every right to take a photo but they're blocked from doing so by officers.
[30:49.570 --> 30:52.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is taking a picture with the cops when they do that all the time.
[30:52.490 --> 30:58.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I see tourists posing with cops constantly but they don't like it when you take a picture of them doing whatever it is they do.
[30:58.810 --> 30:59.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's for sure.
[31:00.370 --> 31:02.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: I will say that the NYPD...
[31:02.550 --> 31:13.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is about the nicest thing I'll ever say about the NYPD but by and large they are aware that you have the right to take a photograph of them even if they're doing something you don't like.
[31:13.210 --> 31:18.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is not universal but they're a lot better in this regard than many other police departments.
[31:19.150 --> 31:19.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[31:19.850 --> 31:21.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Has Bernie a final comment on this?
[31:21.290 --> 31:22.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going to open up the phones.
[31:22.170 --> 31:23.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2900.
[31:23.850 --> 31:24.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[31:24.410 --> 31:43.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: You'd think the NYPD would have good investigators but apparently they didn't investigate what happened to McDonald's because I don't know a year or two ago McDonald's had a similar Twitter campaign where they wanted people to tweet their their favorite McDonald's stories and then people started tweeting in problems like you know trolls would tweet in I found a dead mouse in my McDonald's
[31:44.230 --> 31:45.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: McNuggets or you know something like that.
[31:46.050 --> 31:53.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: So this is not the first time this problem has happened where a big organization did not understand how Twitter worked or the Internet worked in general.
[31:53.450 --> 31:56.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: So you get that they need better investigators at the NYPD.
[31:57.050 --> 32:11.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well just a basic understanding and for those of you who are thinking doing something like this you know having a website where you control what comes in is one thing but when you have a hashtag on Twitter basically anybody can post anything with that hashtag attached to it whether you like it or not.
[32:11.970 --> 32:23.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: that's the nature of Twitter that's how it works you have no control over it so you better hope that there's positive feeling out there towards whatever it is that you're promoting because if there isn't it's going to be drowned out by the negative.
[32:23.930 --> 32:31.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alright let's take a couple phone calls in the time that we have here and good evening you're on Off The Hook Hi guys Hi Emmanuel How you doing?
[32:32.050 --> 33:03.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alright I just wanted to make one comment that's driving me crazy that hasn't been stated about this Ariel stuff and that is that well I'm one of the managers of the local public access TV station here in Woodstock and I know a lot about what the cable carriage rules are and whether it's DirecTV on satellite or dish that provide local station service if you're within the area or fly burner cable
[33:04.770 --> 33:25.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: which is soon to be taken by Comcast or Comcast does the same thing when they retransmit a local broadcaster whether it's from New York City Albany or any place else they always have a one minute local commercial insert that they get to sell In every commercial break,
[33:25.290 --> 33:28.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: on every commercial station they carry, and they do.
[33:28.590 --> 33:44.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, that ends up being the reason why the cable companies or the satellite services pay royalties to carry the program is because not only are they reselling it to their subscribers, but they're also reselling it to sell commercials.
[33:44.290 --> 33:57.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, I don't know how that puts this little antenna, which, as you said, is a service for people that may be in an apartment where it's absolutely impossible to get digital over-the-air signals.
[33:57.450 --> 34:13.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're just providing a technical service, which is done over and over on the Internet, but it seems to me they're selling themselves short if they don't mention that the retransmitters that do pay fees actually sell advertising on the signal they're recarrying.
[34:13.390 --> 34:18.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, what do you see as the proper way to resolve all this?
[34:18.570 --> 34:20.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I agree with you guys.
[34:20.410 --> 34:42.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that what Ariel has come up with is a fabulous service, and if you're paying for your computer access and you're using the computer to supplement your lack of television reception, then I think it's really good that they should not have to pay copyright on it because the broadcasters are doing that.
[34:42.550 --> 34:44.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I absolutely agree with you.
[34:44.550 --> 34:54.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: If a company like CBS sees this little company or anything else that's retransmitting all of their commercials as a threat, then maybe they should go off the air.
[34:54.910 --> 35:01.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the thing is, if they're retransmitting the commercials, as you said, they're making the company the originating signal money.
[35:01.710 --> 35:02.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, absolutely.
[35:03.250 --> 35:05.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have more of a radical view on all of this.
[35:05.770 --> 35:17.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that if you want to watch a television station in Paducah, Kentucky, and I picked that because once when I was a kid, I actually received a TV station here in New York from Paducah, Kentucky.
[35:18.330 --> 35:19.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's great.
[35:19.330 --> 35:20.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why can't you do that?
[35:20.670 --> 35:33.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you use the Internet to do that, if you use some crazy outer space type satellite thing to get it, you should have the right to watch whatever you want, foreign countries, foreign TV shows, whatever, commercials from all over the world.
[35:33.050 --> 35:34.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: It shouldn't be restricted.
[35:34.730 --> 35:37.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: It shouldn't be shut down and geographically controlled.
[35:37.990 --> 35:47.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is the point of that except to basically foster these insane copyright restrictions that are being forced down our throats?
[35:47.810 --> 35:52.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, TuneIn is a great app for radio stations, and you can put that on your smartphone.
[35:52.650 --> 36:02.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there's a geographical feature in that where you basically start with a continent, then you go to a country, then you go to a city, and you can actually see the entire FM lineup of a particular city.
[36:02.730 --> 36:03.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can pick a station.
[36:03.770 --> 36:04.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can hear a station.
[36:05.150 --> 36:06.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you can listen to their commercials.
[36:06.730 --> 36:07.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can listen to their music.
[36:07.670 --> 36:09.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's really what it should be all about.
[36:10.350 --> 36:20.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if we're going to benefit from the advances in technology and make this truly global, that's the kind of thinking that we need, not ways to figure out how to further restrict it.
[36:20.310 --> 36:21.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I agree wholeheartedly.
[36:21.830 --> 36:22.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[36:22.230 --> 36:22.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for your call.
[36:22.970 --> 36:23.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[36:23.590 --> 36:23.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye-bye.
[36:24.550 --> 36:26.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, Bernie, I know you've been using TuneIn as well.
[36:27.370 --> 36:28.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a pretty good app, isn't it?
[36:28.990 --> 36:29.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, it's neat.
[36:29.630 --> 36:30.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: It runs on a lot of different platforms.
[36:30.970 --> 36:32.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: I put it on my mother's Kindle.
[36:32.510 --> 36:33.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: She loves it.
[36:33.570 --> 36:34.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm running it on my BlackBerry.
[36:35.310 --> 36:39.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, I mean, it's only about 50,000, 75,000 stations.
[36:40.110 --> 36:44.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: I like the fact that I can pick up radio stations that I could never pick up otherwise.
[36:45.110 --> 36:47.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: It doesn't have Radio Havana Cuba, though.
[36:47.490 --> 36:47.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[36:47.790 --> 36:51.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can easily pick up Radio Havana Cuba on my shortwave radio in my bathroom.
[36:51.890 --> 36:54.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I can't pick it up on TuneIn Radio, so I wish they would fix that.
[36:55.230 --> 37:01.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't know who is in charge of that, but I'm sure if anybody at Radio Havana is listening, they need to write a letter or something.
[37:01.870 --> 37:01.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mike?
[37:02.070 --> 37:08.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, just to clarify, the way the system works is the radio stations themselves are broadcasting over the Internet, like WBAI.
[37:08.470 --> 37:09.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a web stream.
[37:09.530 --> 37:11.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Many, many radio stations have web streams.
[37:12.010 --> 37:21.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so radio stations without web streams, which may include radio stations in countries with very expensive Internet access, are not going to be available on that service.
[37:21.570 --> 37:23.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did notice that there was nothing from North Korea as well.
[37:24.070 --> 37:25.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's one of the first places I looked.
[37:25.570 --> 37:28.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is something in Antarctica, which I don't think is really in Antarctica.
[37:28.810 --> 37:33.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: If anyone has TuneIn, it seems to be a musical loop that plays over and over again.
[37:33.470 --> 37:39.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: But one of the cool things I like doing with this, I have satellite radio as well, and I listen to CBC Radio 1 a lot.
[37:40.290 --> 37:50.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: But what I can do with TuneIn is that I can pick a station in Upper Moosehead or whatever, somewhere in Saskatchewan, and listen to their local station, listen to their weather report.
[37:50.850 --> 37:55.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was listening to the Fisherman Report in Newfoundland that went on for a half hour and was very passionate.
[37:56.710 --> 38:02.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Things like that that you can't get unless you seek it out are made easy by apps like this.
[38:02.570 --> 38:04.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why can't we do that for television as well?
[38:04.370 --> 38:06.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It would make things a lot more interesting.
[38:06.350 --> 38:07.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, let's take another phone call.
[38:07.850 --> 38:09.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And good evening, you're on Off The Hook.
[38:10.230 --> 38:10.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speak up.
[38:12.370 --> 38:13.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, that light did not turn orange.
[38:14.130 --> 38:14.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's try this one.
[38:15.010 --> 38:16.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening, you're on Off The Hook.
[38:17.490 --> 38:18.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, something wrong here.
[38:18.810 --> 38:20.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: The lights are turning green, but not orange.
[38:20.490 --> 38:21.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: This happens every now and then.
[38:22.310 --> 38:22.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, hold on.
[38:23.010 --> 38:24.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're going to hang up on that.
[38:27.950 --> 38:28.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Such technology.
[38:29.010 --> 38:30.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't understand what's going on.
[38:30.270 --> 38:33.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: The light is turning a different color, and I don't think... Bernie, you're there, right?
[38:33.710 --> 38:34.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm still here.
[38:34.610 --> 38:36.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, caller, you're not there, right?
[38:37.550 --> 38:37.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: See?
[38:38.010 --> 38:38.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're not there.
[38:38.590 --> 38:39.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's them not talking.
[38:40.150 --> 38:43.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, Bernie, I'm going to put you on hold because I think you might be causing the problem.
[38:43.590 --> 38:43.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sorry.
[38:43.810 --> 38:44.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sorry about that.
[38:44.990 --> 38:48.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: I got to press that button, press this button, and then press that button.
[38:48.730 --> 38:49.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: And yes, see, that works.
[38:49.770 --> 38:51.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now I'm going to press this button and this button.
[38:51.450 --> 38:52.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hang on, hang on.
[38:52.290 --> 38:53.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wait for me to say hello.
[38:53.790 --> 38:54.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[38:54.250 --> 38:54.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook.
[38:55.290 --> 38:56.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, good evening.
[38:56.030 --> 39:00.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just wanted to let you know that I could hear you since you seem to be having some problems.
[39:00.270 --> 39:04.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: A couple points of clarification, and then the main part of my question.
[39:04.970 --> 39:11.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: You said the NYPD hashtag so quickly that I couldn't get what it was.
[39:11.490 --> 39:13.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, it's my NYPD.
[39:13.470 --> 39:14.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: M-Y-N-Y-P-D.
[39:14.950 --> 39:14.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[39:14.970 --> 39:15.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, thank you.
[39:15.990 --> 39:28.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the other thing about this tune-in, Bernie, you mentioned that it's any radio station also broadcasting over the Internet, Internet.
[39:28.210 --> 39:38.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that would also include AM, because Emmanuel just said, you can put in any FM station, but it wouldn't include AM.
[39:38.870 --> 39:55.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm concerned because WOR that used to broadcast the coast-to-coast AM radio program at 1 AM in this market is now picking up the Mets or the replay of the Mets or the post-game, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[39:55.330 --> 39:55.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[39:55.650 --> 39:55.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[39:55.790 --> 39:57.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can pick up a lot of tune-in radio.
[39:57.710 --> 40:05.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Tune-in radio has, like, tons of AM radio stations and shortwave stations, but not all of the stations that are on the air are on tune-in radio.
[40:05.530 --> 40:08.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's a lot of non-over-the-air radio stations.
[40:08.570 --> 40:08.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: Not radio.
[40:09.030 --> 40:18.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's a lot of non-over-the-air stations, just Internet-only radio stations that... And over-the-air radio that also is broadcasted over the Internet.
[40:18.910 --> 40:21.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not, well, is also So, over the Internet?
[40:22.050 --> 40:22.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[40:22.570 --> 40:23.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: TuneIn Radio is free.
[40:24.190 --> 40:25.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think they have a premium version.
[40:25.690 --> 40:26.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, wonderful.
[40:26.990 --> 40:30.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's only on these smartphones, is that correct?
[40:30.330 --> 40:33.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, you can do it on a regular computer or a tablet.
[40:33.630 --> 40:36.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: As long as you have an Internet connection, you should be able to do it.
[40:36.310 --> 40:41.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just to clarify, it doesn't matter if the station itself is FM or AM or shortwave or whatever.
[40:41.450 --> 40:45.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: What matters is if that station has an Internet broadcasting stream set up.
[40:45.850 --> 40:49.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, all the various stations, FM, AM, shortwave, everything else.
[40:50.010 --> 40:51.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: That have an Internet stream.
[40:51.810 --> 40:53.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Those are the ones that TuneIn can get to.
[40:54.810 --> 40:55.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[40:55.330 --> 40:57.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I want to thank people for calling in.
[40:57.210 --> 40:59.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: As I said, this is a bit of a truncated show.
[41:00.830 --> 41:03.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, we'll be taking phone calls in weeks ahead.
[41:03.290 --> 41:06.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: And of course, you can always write to us, oth@2600.com.
[41:06.490 --> 41:11.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have an update for a good friend of ours, who you may not have heard from in quite some time.
[41:12.270 --> 41:15.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Our friend Jim, who actually we haven't seen in quite a while.
[41:16.530 --> 41:20.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, Rob, I believe you received an update as to what his condition is right now.
[41:20.490 --> 41:20.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[41:21.270 --> 41:29.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've been updated that he had a heart attack in January and he had a pacemaker put in and he's still, he's in the hospital recovering.
[41:29.910 --> 41:33.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: But he's able to, he's able to get well wishes.
[41:33.510 --> 41:35.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, we have the address for that, I believe.
[41:35.450 --> 41:37.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I believe he's listening to us now.
[41:37.210 --> 41:38.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, Jim, we hope you get well.
[41:38.510 --> 41:43.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: We hope to see you soon at 2600 meetings, at the Hope Conference, and here at the radio station.
[41:44.770 --> 41:45.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can write to him.
[41:46.390 --> 41:49.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Please send all kinds of material.
[41:49.510 --> 41:55.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Jim is an avid reader and is way into technology and mischief and all kinds of cool things.
[41:55.390 --> 41:59.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, we want to make sure that his brain stays as sharp as it, as it always has been.
[42:00.450 --> 42:03.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Jim Vichench, I spelled V-I-C-H-E-N-C-H.
[42:04.110 --> 42:06.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the address is Elmhurst Care Center.
[42:06.950 --> 42:16.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's 100-17, 23rd Avenue, room 117A in East Elmhurst, New York, 11369.
[42:17.250 --> 42:22.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully, he'll get a ton of mail now and have a lot to think about.
[42:22.790 --> 42:24.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we'll see him soon as well.
[42:26.290 --> 42:35.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, the sad news we mentioned earlier in this broadcast has to do with our friend and colleague, Robert Knight, who passed away on April 16th.
[42:36.050 --> 42:45.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Those of you who have listened to WBAI at any time during the past 30 or so years undoubtedly would have heard Robert's voice at some point.
[42:45.530 --> 42:47.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was on this show a couple of times.
[42:47.570 --> 42:50.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: He hosted Five O'Clock Shadow in later years.
[42:50.890 --> 42:56.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was a longtime host of Earthwatch, the program that aired at 12 midnight.
[42:56.490 --> 42:59.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: In fact, tonight at 12 midnight, we're having a special tribute to Robert.
[42:59.830 --> 43:05.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I believe following that on Hour of the Wolf, Jim Farn will have some memories as well.
[43:05.490 --> 43:13.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Robert was basically... I consider the face of this radio station because he was one of the best investigative reporters I've ever known.
[43:13.650 --> 43:25.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: And somebody who encapsulated the spirit of rebellion and mischief and curiosity, always embracing the newest forms of technology.
[43:25.450 --> 43:32.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I remember his pride in showing us a wristwatch that he could talk into, just like a comic book character.
[43:32.810 --> 43:34.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it was a telephone, but it was on a wristwatch.
[43:35.950 --> 43:41.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: He... I hadn't seen him in the last few months, but I had heard him on the radio.
[43:42.030 --> 43:47.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he sounded as sharp as ever and as interested in what's going on in the world.
[43:47.970 --> 43:53.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: You could have conversations that went on for hours with Robert about any part of the world.
[43:53.250 --> 43:59.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was especially interested in the events in Central America.
[43:59.050 --> 44:04.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: What I'd like to do is play something that aired on a different radio station.
[44:04.650 --> 44:07.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did a show on WUSB back in 1989.
[44:07.730 --> 44:16.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I interviewed Robert basically about the subject of something else that he was investigating.
[44:16.590 --> 44:22.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: The danger of plutonium being launched on a space shuttle.
[44:22.330 --> 44:25.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what could happen if there was an accident.
[44:25.610 --> 44:28.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: This comes from October of 1989.
[44:31.520 --> 44:39.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And on that rather cheerful note, as we plunge into the 1990s, we begin tonight's program.
[44:39.340 --> 44:45.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, next week, a launch of a space shuttle is scheduled.
[44:45.120 --> 44:47.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believe it's the space shuttle Atlantis.
[44:47.900 --> 44:52.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there is a special little package on board.
[44:53.140 --> 45:00.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believe it's part of the Galileo mission headed to Jupiter that contains some rather nasty substances.
[45:01.260 --> 45:12.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are some citizens' groups, as we discussed a few weeks ago in this program, that are trying to stop that launch and trying to maybe save quite a few people in so doing.
[45:12.240 --> 45:16.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, I said I would try to find out more facts about the matter.
[45:16.260 --> 45:20.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: So what I have done is I have sought out somebody who knows quite a bit more than me.
[45:20.720 --> 45:26.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we have on the line with us right now Robert Knight of WBAI fame.
[45:26.980 --> 45:30.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: You may recognize him from Undercurrents.
[45:30.220 --> 45:31.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Robert, are you there?
[45:31.520 --> 45:32.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I'm here.
[45:32.660 --> 45:38.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it's good to hear a voice of sanity in this craziness that we plod through each week here.
[45:38.220 --> 45:51.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, in fact, and moving from your short story to this long shot that we're going to be talking about, it occurs to me that sometimes men making decisions have as little respect for Mother Earth as they do for its daughters.
[45:52.020 --> 45:52.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's certainly true.
[45:53.080 --> 45:53.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is certainly true.
[45:53.960 --> 45:57.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of it is just the glory of the moment, so to say.
[45:59.160 --> 46:00.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, was I correct?
[46:00.780 --> 46:02.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is the space shuttle Atlantis?
[46:03.080 --> 46:03.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, yes.
[46:04.080 --> 46:07.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, next week, something very dangerous could happen.
[46:08.220 --> 46:30.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that is with the launch of the shuttle Atlantis, which is significant because it is carrying an interplanetary space probe called Galileo, named, of course, after the astronomer who developed the telescope and watched the satellites of the giant planet,
[46:30.460 --> 46:33.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: one which is very interesting astronomically.
[46:33.380 --> 46:53.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, the problem is that in order to power this probe, which is planned to go to Jupiter and drop some equipment down and orbit and explore the Jovian system, the Galileo probe is fueled by a nuclear reactor.
[46:54.000 --> 47:00.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that nuclear reactor is carrying within it 49.4 pounds of plutonium.
[47:01.620 --> 47:19.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the problem with this launch is that there is a certain margin of error, which could, in a catastrophic development, result in the explosion and release, the explosion of the craft and the release of the plutonium on board.
[47:19.680 --> 47:36.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, if that were to happen and the plutonium were to be released into the atmosphere, you would have a cloud of death that would scatter for the entire perimeter of the remains fluttering back down to Earth.
[47:36.400 --> 47:39.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And each of these plutonium molecules...
[47:39.540 --> 47:42.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Plutonium has a half-life of about 250 years.
[47:43.060 --> 47:51.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Any lung, any throat that came into contact with this material would almost certainly develop cancer.
[47:51.940 --> 47:55.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, how wide an area would be affected in a worst-case scenario?
[47:56.220 --> 48:11.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that is something that is ultimately unpredictable because there are variables of wind, direction, time of launch, or the potential explosion and or release of the materials.
[48:11.180 --> 48:22.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the lower down that this might happen, the more concentrated the fallout would be, and the higher up, the more widely distributed.
[48:22.940 --> 48:28.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are conflicting reports on...
[48:28.060 --> 48:33.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's an excerpt from 1989 that aired on radio station WUSB of Robert Knight.
[48:34.020 --> 48:38.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: We were talking to him about the hazards of sending plutonium up into space.
[48:38.960 --> 48:52.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just one of so many things that you could talk to Robert about and have a spirited conversation and just learn so very much from him because he was so well-spoken, so pleasant to debate with, even.
[48:52.920 --> 48:54.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: He didn't have to agree with everything he said.
[48:54.440 --> 49:00.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he just had this passion and was so sorry that he's no longer with us.
[49:00.880 --> 49:03.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Rob, I know you had some memories of Robert as well.
[49:03.940 --> 49:05.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I mean, I was a listener back then.
[49:05.960 --> 49:10.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'm pretty sure I remember listening to the exact clip you've just played when it first went out.
[49:11.900 --> 49:20.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, yeah, I was as much of an admirer of his work as I was of yours back in those days on this station.
[49:20.240 --> 49:27.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: And when I started getting involved five, six years ago, whenever it was, and I would come to the station on Wall Street and hang out in the lobby.
[49:27.260 --> 49:31.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was very often early, so I would have some time to just hang out in the lobby and chat with whoever was there.
[49:31.640 --> 49:32.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And very often it was Robert.
[49:33.020 --> 49:38.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he just went, like, such a long way to make the new kid feel comfortable about being there.
[49:38.540 --> 49:46.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, the conversations with him were always spirited, whether they were about, you know, big, heavy subjects or, you know, minutia.
[49:46.840 --> 49:51.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he was just always so gracious, one of the nicest people I've met, period.
[49:51.480 --> 49:53.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not just at this station, but anywhere.
[49:54.260 --> 49:58.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this station, this network, this state, this planet are all poorer for his loss.
[49:58.960 --> 50:05.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: He always was open to listening as much as conversing, to learning more.
[50:06.120 --> 50:07.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: He loved the hacker world.
[50:07.940 --> 50:14.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: He loved hearing what we were up to and getting involved in our various projects one way or another.
[50:15.620 --> 50:18.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, of course, it went so far beyond that, too.
[50:18.980 --> 50:21.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: His involvement was simply incredible.
[50:22.080 --> 50:27.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was a co-founder of the radio program Contragate, which later was renamed Undercurrents.
[50:27.900 --> 50:36.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: That provided daily exposés of the military operations, clandestine operations involving the Central American wars.
[50:36.920 --> 50:40.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he was also WBAI's news director for a while.
[50:40.440 --> 50:44.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was a morning show host for Wake Up Call, news director.
[50:44.500 --> 50:48.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: His work appeared on many different radio stations as well.
[50:48.480 --> 50:53.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: He interviewed Manuel Noriega in Panama before he was deposed.
[50:53.260 --> 51:04.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: In fact, we have another clip, a little longer this clip, from WBAI when Panama was being invaded in December of 1989, also of 1989.
[51:04.080 --> 51:22.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: This gives you a sense as to the reach of Robert's career that these two excerpts were playing from 1989, imagine that kind of intensity being replicated every single year since then, and before then as well, because he had been involved in the station for a number of years prior to that.
[51:22.620 --> 51:34.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's listen to some of the breaking news that we covered here in December of 1989 on this radio station with Robert Knight and other people, too, who were involved in this.
[51:36.600 --> 51:38.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Report of the Contras.
[51:38.280 --> 51:44.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, my worry is that the information has been withheld from the people.
[51:44.520 --> 51:49.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can get to the information, I wouldn't be so quick to impeach the American people.
[51:49.800 --> 51:58.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I would support Robert Knight's declaration for the beginning, at least, of impeachment proceedings against the president of this country, Robert.
[51:58.400 --> 51:58.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[51:59.500 --> 52:00.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am a reporter.
[52:00.860 --> 52:20.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have been a reporter for a decade, news director, and, as you know, Dennis, now senior producer undercurrents, and I just want to say something to clear the public air and to maintain something that I believe in very strongly, the need for a presumption of innocence.
[52:21.080 --> 52:40.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: So many of the reports and reporters that you hear every day now in television, in the papers, say that a person pleads innocent to a crime, and that breaks down the constitutional structures that we have learned that a person is presumed not guilty, and that is the plea,
[52:40.880 --> 52:45.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: not guilty until the state proves the charges that are made.
[52:45.780 --> 53:00.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I just want to be very clear because I do not want the very precise reporting I have made on incidents surrounding my travels to Panama, which, as a reporter, I'm very clear about, very precise about.
[53:01.820 --> 53:18.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have told the story on the air before, that on the way down, Dennis, that my seat was taken by a man whose description I gave, and I have always said, who identified himself as one Colonel Fred Francis.
[53:19.320 --> 53:22.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, those two names are common.
[53:23.120 --> 53:27.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: That could have been a true name, or it could have been a fabricated name.
[53:27.680 --> 53:28.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I do not know.
[53:28.360 --> 53:31.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: All I know is the man identified himself by that name.
[53:31.500 --> 53:52.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: If there is another correspondent who is a legitimate correspondent for any other news or media medium or media institution who happens to have that same name, I by no means wish to falsely associate any implications by something which could be true or not true that somebody on an airplane told me.
[53:53.680 --> 54:13.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I just want to be very clear about that, that I am not seeking to impugn or otherwise cast any aspersions on anyone else in my profession, but I will certainly, you know, investigate any and all information that, you know, that comes to me.
[54:13.480 --> 54:22.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I want to very clearly establish the constitutional and broadcast analogy of the presumption of innocence.
[54:22.780 --> 54:29.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I wish for no one else's reputation to be harmed any more than I would my own.
[54:29.960 --> 54:33.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, Robert, just a couple of minutes to stay with us.
[54:33.080 --> 54:35.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take just a couple of calls together, okay?
[54:36.300 --> 54:37.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: WBAI, you're on the air.
[54:38.640 --> 54:39.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's you.
[54:39.280 --> 54:43.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, quickly, do you have a quick question for Robert Knight and myself, Dennis Bernstein?
[54:43.780 --> 54:45.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I have a quick question and I'll hang up.
[54:45.980 --> 54:49.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: On the Noriega tape, he said something about tomorrow the U.S.
[54:49.280 --> 54:51.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: will violate international law, etc.
[54:51.800 --> 54:54.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: When was the tape made and what was the specific U.S.
[54:54.760 --> 54:56.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: action he was talking about?
[54:56.120 --> 54:58.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I wonder if you might like to ponder on what that might have been.
[54:58.500 --> 55:02.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can only speculate.
[55:02.620 --> 55:04.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know what was on the tape.
[55:04.940 --> 55:15.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know from previous conversations that this voice sounds to me the same as the voice I've spoken with on more than one previous occasion.
[55:16.040 --> 55:19.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, I am convinced that it is the voice of General Noriega.
[55:20.500 --> 55:26.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: I do not know when, where, or how, or how that tape was made.
[55:27.000 --> 55:39.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know that the means by which I obtained it is through sources who have in the past been of the utmost reliability and accuracy.
[55:41.600 --> 56:04.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: The statement in reference to treaties and so on would, as I would understand the words, mean that by this invasion, he did not say these words explicitly, this is my paraphrasing or interpretation of what has been said, that this invasion is a violation of international treaties and,
[56:04.320 --> 56:21.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: in particular, the Panama Canal treaties, which explicitly forbid the United States to intervene in the internal affairs of Panama, even though you can also find a clause that permits intervention for specifically the defense of the canal.
[56:23.180 --> 56:39.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: The invasion and the creation of a government fabricated in Washington is considered by Panamanians and, or Panamanian nationalists to be a violation of the 1977 Panama Canal treaties.
[56:40.400 --> 56:51.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Deaconsigny Reservation Public Law 77 is also considered a violation by creating a position of chief administrator, of chief engineer to override the chief administrator.
[56:51.960 --> 57:06.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: This very week, this, the end of this very month, the United States was obligated by law to appoint as chief administrator of the canal, a Panamanian national of the choosing of the Panamanian government.
[57:07.320 --> 57:31.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, at one o'clock in the morning on a day in this week, when President Bush, uh, sends in a military invasion force and creates a government of his own choosing for the people of Panama and uses that government perhaps to acquiesce to the nominee and other wishes of the interest of his government,
[57:32.260 --> 57:38.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that is the sort of thing that perhaps the speaker may have meant by violation of treaties.
[57:38.660 --> 58:00.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: When, uh, the speaker who, whom I believe to be General Noriega said that, uh, tomorrow the United States will be violating all of its treaties, what he's saying is, and this is another reason I believe it's authentic, this is an echo and an elaboration of what he said when I interviewed him on Monday just before the invasion.
[58:01.060 --> 58:06.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he said at that time that, uh, the entire world should be worried.
[58:06.980 --> 58:26.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: It should be occupied, preoccupied with this violation of the Panama Canal treaties, because if a president today can abrogate what a previous president of the United States has signed, then in the future, an American president, president will abrogate agreements made with the Soviet Union.
[58:26.860 --> 58:29.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, for, for this and various...
[58:29.920 --> 58:40.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: The voice of Robert Knight as heard on these airwaves back in December of 1989, right when the, um, invasion of Panama was underway.
[58:41.200 --> 58:43.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, we say goodbye to, uh, to Robert.
[58:43.980 --> 58:49.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: There will be a special tribute tonight at midnight on these airwaves, so please, um, stay tuned for that.
[58:50.380 --> 58:55.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it's, um, it's unimaginable that we won't, uh, be interacting with him again.
[58:55.480 --> 59:02.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we're seeing his, uh, his, uh, mischievous face and, uh, having these amazing conversations that just go on forever.
[59:02.960 --> 59:06.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, I've missed him the last few, uh, few months.
[59:06.400 --> 59:06.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Miss seeing him.
[59:07.120 --> 59:08.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll miss him for the rest of my life.
[59:09.740 --> 59:25.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, please continue to listen to this radio station, because if anything, we've learned from Robert, the greatness that can be achieved in a place like this, where people are encouraged to express themselves, investigate, and, um, and broadcast.
[59:25.800 --> 59:27.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And our listeners are a major part of that.
[59:28.020 --> 59:29.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's our show for tonight.
[59:29.120 --> 59:31.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Write to us, oth@2600.com.
[59:31.160 --> 59:31.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have a good night.