[00:00.520 --> 00:02.180] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll do what we can for you.
[00:03.440 --> 00:04.540] [SPEAKER_00]: WBAI.org.
[00:04.840 --> 00:06.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Buddy, make a difference.
[00:07.240 --> 00:08.140] [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks to you.
[00:08.460 --> 00:11.460] [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you for thinking of me.
[00:11.780 --> 00:13.460] [SPEAKER_09]: And I thank you.
[00:13.640 --> 00:14.860] [SPEAKER_10]: And I thank you.
[00:14.900 --> 00:18.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Let us say thank you to all you people out there.
[00:19.320 --> 00:21.540] [SPEAKER_07]: I want to thank each and every one of you for coming by.
[00:21.800 --> 00:33.940] [SPEAKER_00]: And while he's thanking those folks, let me take this opportunity to thank all of you, our listeners and support staff, our contributors, our interns, the volunteers, producers and the entire crew that works countless hours to bring WBAI into your lives.
[00:38.770 --> 00:39.830] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you indeed.
[00:39.990 --> 00:42.750] [SPEAKER_06]: The time is just about 7 p.m.
[00:43.230 --> 00:50.150] [SPEAKER_06]: The station is WBAI New York 99.5 FM, and the show is now off the hook.
[00:58.360 --> 01:02.880] [SPEAKER_04]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:03.920 --> 01:08.400] [SPEAKER_04]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:09.120 --> 01:11.160] [SPEAKER_04]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:11.900 --> 01:13.680] [SPEAKER_04]: But if they could, they would.
[01:14.060 --> 01:16.600] [SPEAKER_04]: But the best, it's back the worst.
[01:17.320 --> 01:19.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I hope that's understood.
[01:34.900 --> 01:36.300] [SPEAKER_06]: A very good evening to you.
[01:36.540 --> 01:37.800] [SPEAKER_06]: The program is off the hook.
[01:37.920 --> 01:38.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Rob T. Firefly here with you.
[01:39.600 --> 01:40.800] [SPEAKER_06]: I am joined in the studio by Mike.
[01:41.020 --> 01:41.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[01:41.520 --> 01:43.360] [SPEAKER_06]: And on the phone by Emmanuel.
[01:45.180 --> 01:47.500] [SPEAKER_03]: Greetings from Budapest, Hungary.
[01:48.100 --> 01:48.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[01:48.400 --> 01:49.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Budapest, Hungary.
[01:49.480 --> 01:51.220] [SPEAKER_06]: And is that Kyle as well, I hear?
[01:52.420 --> 01:53.380] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's me.
[01:54.180 --> 01:55.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, how are you, gentlemen?
[01:56.800 --> 01:58.040] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're kind of tired.
[01:58.060 --> 01:59.620] [SPEAKER_03]: It's one o'clock in the morning here.
[01:59.860 --> 02:07.840] [SPEAKER_03]: But we're committed to doing at least half the show before Bernie comes on at 7.30, 1.30 our time.
[02:07.840 --> 02:09.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Excellent.
[02:09.380 --> 02:11.400] [SPEAKER_06]: So what are you guys getting up to in Budapest?
[02:12.780 --> 02:19.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we've been basically just familiarizing ourselves with this pretty expansive city.
[02:20.580 --> 02:27.460] [SPEAKER_11]: There's quite an extensive transit system, which always is a good start if you're in a new place.
[02:28.380 --> 02:33.820] [SPEAKER_11]: And, well, we're still getting used to it, but it's really functional and beautiful.
[02:34.120 --> 02:37.580] [SPEAKER_11]: And, well, the city is as well.
[02:37.580 --> 02:41.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Very old, but just very busy, very fast.
[02:41.780 --> 02:43.480] [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of stuff going on.
[02:43.480 --> 02:46.860] [SPEAKER_03]: And before this, we were in Bratislava and Slovakia.
[02:46.980 --> 02:53.340] [SPEAKER_03]: It was actually the second time I was in Bratislava, and only the first time I was in Slovakia, because, well, the first time I was there, it was Czechoslovakia.
[02:54.000 --> 02:54.960] [SPEAKER_03]: Before that, we were in...
[02:55.420 --> 02:58.440] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing that's interesting...
[03:00.140 --> 03:02.700] [SPEAKER_07]: We're having a hard time hearing you, Emmanuel.
[03:03.180 --> 03:06.140] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if you can rearrange your antenna or something.
[03:07.560 --> 03:12.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm not sure exactly if I can do that, but the latter can hear me now.
[03:13.620 --> 03:15.480] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, we can hear you a bit.
[03:15.560 --> 03:16.540] [SPEAKER_06]: You're just breaking up a little.
[03:17.520 --> 03:17.960] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:18.640 --> 03:23.140] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, phone service is a problem in some places, although...
[03:28.390 --> 03:33.870] [SPEAKER_07]: I guess you're managing to retain the ire of the phone company wherever in the world you travel.
[03:33.870 --> 03:37.550] [SPEAKER_07]: You started to say that it was a problem, and then, you know, proved yourself right.
[03:38.910 --> 03:40.210] [SPEAKER_06]: He's just tempting fate out there.
[03:42.830 --> 03:44.230] [SPEAKER_07]: Did we lose him entirely?
[03:44.230 --> 03:45.150] [SPEAKER_07]: There's no way to know.
[03:45.430 --> 03:49.090] [SPEAKER_06]: There really isn't, unless we hear from him or don't hear from him.
[03:49.510 --> 03:50.350] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm here.
[03:50.530 --> 03:51.130] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you hear me?
[03:51.210 --> 03:52.490] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm standing right out the window.
[03:52.710 --> 03:52.870] [SPEAKER_06]: There you are.
[03:52.870 --> 03:53.510] [SPEAKER_06]: Now we hear you.
[03:53.730 --> 03:54.190] [SPEAKER_06]: Now you're clear.
[03:54.270 --> 03:56.870] [SPEAKER_03]: My head is out the damn window right now, alright?
[03:57.050 --> 03:57.630] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you hear me?
[03:57.670 --> 03:58.790] [SPEAKER_06]: Don't do anything rash, buddy.
[03:59.330 --> 04:00.490] [SPEAKER_06]: We can hear you now.
[04:01.070 --> 04:02.910] [SPEAKER_03]: Listen, I want to be heard, alright?
[04:02.910 --> 04:03.570] [SPEAKER_03]: Play him!
[04:04.930 --> 04:07.530] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm sure the good people...
[04:07.530 --> 04:19.510] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I please get this out, that I'm trying to say that things are very cheap over here, and that it's an amazing place to be, and when people consider traveling, they should consider traveling to this part of the world.
[04:20.270 --> 04:23.610] [SPEAKER_03]: It's very enlightening, people are very friendly, and you learn a lot.
[04:25.670 --> 04:26.410] [SPEAKER_07]: How's the pastry?
[04:28.090 --> 04:29.310] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't know about that.
[04:29.510 --> 04:30.390] [SPEAKER_07]: You don't know about pastry?
[04:31.110 --> 04:33.390] [SPEAKER_03]: I know about it, I just haven't gotten to that part yet.
[04:33.550 --> 04:33.750] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright.
[04:34.090 --> 04:37.330] [SPEAKER_03]: Just basically been exploring and figuring things out.
[04:37.410 --> 04:40.210] [SPEAKER_03]: But listen, our travels are the least of what we're going to be talking about.
[04:40.370 --> 04:44.750] [SPEAKER_03]: There's so much going on in the world, and well, gosh, I don't know where to even begin.
[04:44.750 --> 04:51.190] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's been such a week of craziness as far as free speech, hypocrisy.
[04:51.330 --> 04:52.710] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they always seem to go hand in hand, don't they?
[04:53.350 --> 04:53.870] [SPEAKER_03]: They really do.
[04:54.670 --> 04:55.030] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[04:55.830 --> 05:00.990] [SPEAKER_03]: Today, of course, marks one week after the Chari Hebdo massacre.
[05:01.330 --> 05:08.830] [SPEAKER_03]: And, of course, we had the rally in Paris and throughout France that drew millions of people.
[05:09.130 --> 05:11.650] [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of people here in Europe are talking about that.
[05:11.790 --> 05:14.450] [SPEAKER_03]: The headlines, of course, are all about that.
[05:15.990 --> 05:26.010] [SPEAKER_03]: And almost, you know, in sync, unfortunately, with this is the hypocrisy that comes with it, such as, well, we'll get into what David Cameron had to say.
[05:26.290 --> 05:37.270] [SPEAKER_03]: But just the appearance, the appearance of all the Western leaders in the capital, trying to join in with the march for freedom of expression.
[05:37.470 --> 05:47.470] [SPEAKER_03]: When these are the people that have done more to hurt freedom of expression than I think anyone in the Western world, it really was almost laughable.
[05:47.630 --> 05:59.390] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think what we have to be careful about is not to confuse what the people are standing for with the hypocrisy that the leadership of their respective countries represent.
[05:59.390 --> 06:03.490] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's an unfortunate thing that that's what the headlines focus on.
[06:03.590 --> 06:05.830] [SPEAKER_03]: But it really was a good week for freedom of speech.
[06:05.830 --> 06:17.270] [SPEAKER_03]: It really was something that people came together for and spoke loudly on their own, not because they represent a government or anything like that, because they represent themselves as people.
[06:17.430 --> 06:21.670] [SPEAKER_03]: It's something that we as hackers have always recognized and have always fought for.
[06:21.930 --> 06:25.030] [SPEAKER_03]: But this goes far beyond anything that we've said.
[06:25.190 --> 06:28.070] [SPEAKER_03]: This is something really courageous and massive.
[06:32.490 --> 06:43.390] [SPEAKER_11]: It's sort of a situation where the leadership, I think of it as though they're there to learn and be led by the people.
[06:43.870 --> 06:45.070] [SPEAKER_11]: They're not there.
[06:45.170 --> 06:47.490] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, they're there as individuals.
[06:47.630 --> 06:51.150] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think that's important to remember.
[06:51.370 --> 06:59.590] [SPEAKER_11]: And in this moment, it sort of feels like there's a lot of reactions, a lot of opinions flying around, and it's sort of like the chaos is ensuing.
[06:59.970 --> 07:06.590] [SPEAKER_11]: And it feels a bit like an echo chamber of reactions and causes and effects and stuff like that.
[07:07.170 --> 07:16.050] [SPEAKER_11]: But definitely it's opened up and a worthy discussion to be having on all sides.
[07:16.370 --> 07:20.670] [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel, I'm not sure I agree with your analysis that it's been overall a good week for free speech.
[07:21.730 --> 07:33.190] [SPEAKER_07]: The leaders of the world have been spending the week after this rally, and some time before it, coming up with new ways to restrict freedom of speech.
[07:33.850 --> 07:45.330] [SPEAKER_07]: The most insane, perhaps, coming from Britain, as so many totalitarian ideas do, he wants to ban a lot of encrypted messaging apps, he being Prime Minister David Cameron.
[07:46.270 --> 07:53.490] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying before, Mike, that you shouldn't confuse the hypocrisy of the leaders with the actions of the people.
[07:53.750 --> 07:58.670] [SPEAKER_03]: In this particular case, the people spoke loudly, regardless of the hypocrisy of the leaders.
[07:59.050 --> 08:01.350] [SPEAKER_03]: And yet, David Cameron is a real imbecile.
[08:01.570 --> 08:11.310] [SPEAKER_03]: We should focus on what he actually thinks he can do and tear it to pieces, because I think people will march against that as strongly.
[08:12.230 --> 08:18.330] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just insane that somebody thinks that encryption is the problem.
[08:18.330 --> 08:27.710] [SPEAKER_03]: There is nothing to indicate that any of these attacks have taken place, were in any way aided by encryption or technology of any sort.
[08:28.090 --> 08:33.270] [SPEAKER_03]: And even if they were, that would be no excuse to dismantle something that I think is our right.
[08:33.890 --> 08:39.670] [SPEAKER_03]: But maybe you can go into some more detail as to what specifically Cameron is proposing.
[08:40.030 --> 08:45.730] [SPEAKER_07]: He's proposing... I mean, it sounds like I'm exaggerating, but I'm going to read you directly from the New York Times.
[08:46.910 --> 08:55.070] [SPEAKER_07]: Prime Minister David Cameron said he would pursue banning encrypted messaging services if Britain's intelligence services were not given access to the communications.
[08:55.550 --> 08:58.730] [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, that sounds like hyperbole, but it's what he's proposing.
[08:58.730 --> 09:01.310] [SPEAKER_07]: He wants to ban things like Snapchat and WhatsApp.
[09:02.070 --> 09:08.130] [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, those are sort of vaguely possible to ban because they're centralized services.
[09:08.130 --> 09:12.210] [SPEAKER_07]: You can somehow try and block these services from the UK.
[09:12.430 --> 09:15.610] [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's a difficult problem, but a solvable one.
[09:15.790 --> 09:23.850] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not clear how he would ban more decentralized services like, you know, encrypted Jabber with OTR and stuff like that.
[09:23.850 --> 09:32.210] [SPEAKER_07]: But it's almost like a Mad Libs sort of, you know, totalitarianism.
[09:32.410 --> 09:38.550] [SPEAKER_07]: He just wants to... you know, he can't read people's private communications, so he wants to ban privacy.
[09:39.510 --> 09:44.730] [SPEAKER_07]: And he's running for re-election, I guess, in May.
[09:44.930 --> 09:49.790] [SPEAKER_07]: And so he's currently in a coalition with some people who will not go for this sort of thing.
[09:49.790 --> 09:57.230] [SPEAKER_07]: But he's saying, you know, vote just for my party and we'll be able to pass this sort of stuff without this interference.
[09:58.910 --> 10:05.610] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, Mike, I think this is a great example of kind of the chaos I was talking about.
[10:05.730 --> 10:13.030] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, in a large way, like, these guys have stuff kind of on the shelf, ready to go.
[10:13.030 --> 10:18.470] [SPEAKER_11]: I know that's really broad generalization, but they're going to do these kinds of things.
[10:18.670 --> 10:24.590] [SPEAKER_11]: And you see the same kinds of people stateside have been hearing things.
[10:24.750 --> 10:44.910] [SPEAKER_11]: Even it's just the kind of people just chomping at the bit to take a moment like this and, well, kind of put forth an agenda that doesn't actually show an intelligent, you know, handle of what has occurred and its overall impact in the world.
[10:45.150 --> 10:52.910] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to just read the quote, the quote everyone's talking about, that Cameron said at an event on Monday.
[10:52.910 --> 10:59.730] [SPEAKER_03]: Are we going to allow a means of communications which it simply isn't possible to read?
[10:59.950 --> 11:02.850] [SPEAKER_03]: And my answer to that question is no, we must not.
[11:03.070 --> 11:10.290] [SPEAKER_03]: He's basically saying that thinking is a crime because you communicate with yourself by thoughts.
[11:10.630 --> 11:17.290] [SPEAKER_03]: You communicate with others by knowledge that you have in the past, unspoken words.
[11:19.050 --> 11:22.350] [SPEAKER_03]: You understand certain things that are agreed upon in the past.
[11:22.510 --> 11:28.470] [SPEAKER_03]: There are so many ways you can communicate that people cannot listen in on and should never be able to listen in on.
[11:29.190 --> 11:43.130] [SPEAKER_03]: And I maintain, I've said this a number of years ago, that if brainwaves were something that could be listened to by the authorities and all of a sudden they lost that ability, they would claim it was impossible for them to do their job without monitoring brainwaves.
[11:43.690 --> 11:46.930] [SPEAKER_03]: You give them something, you will never get it back.
[11:47.090 --> 11:50.450] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why it's so important to battle this type of thing whenever it comes up.
[11:50.770 --> 12:00.850] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it ties into what Kyle had mentioned about these people having things on the shelf ready to go and they're just waiting for an excuse that can be made to fit, like the attacks in Paris.
[12:00.870 --> 12:11.450] [SPEAKER_06]: There was a joint statement by European Union politicians after the Paris attacks where they called on ISPs to report potentially harmful online material aimed at citing hatred or terror.
[12:11.450 --> 12:21.250] [SPEAKER_06]: Where the direct quote is from this joint statement is, We are concerned at the increasingly frequent use of the Internet, to fuel hatred and violence and signal our determination to ensure that the Internet is not abused to this end.
[12:22.430 --> 12:28.450] [SPEAKER_06]: They're concerned that bad people are using the Internet so therefore, the Internet itself is the problem unless they can take control of it.
[12:28.950 --> 12:31.570] [SPEAKER_06]: This is not a line of reasoning that I can follow with very easily.
[12:31.570 --> 12:34.030] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, they should know that bad people are using the Internet.
[12:34.230 --> 12:34.970] [SPEAKER_07]: They're using the Internet.
[12:36.270 --> 12:38.870] [SPEAKER_11]: It certainly runs the spectrum.
[12:39.570 --> 12:59.370] [SPEAKER_11]: It's like, you know, whether it's just reactionary stuff that people want to say, like, you know, just ignorant stuff to be hateful or all the way up to politicians, regardless as people and community members, we should encourage people around us to maybe think a bit more before they speak.
[12:59.370 --> 13:12.190] [SPEAKER_11]: And as well, and speak to our politicians and work with our governments and lead them away from what, of course, they're going to try to do, you know.
[13:12.370 --> 13:17.710] [SPEAKER_11]: It's silly, but we have to see the moment ourselves.
[13:18.050 --> 13:29.570] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what I think is also really amusing and kind of crazy is the amount of attention that's been paid to the fact that Centcom had their Twitter account hacked.
[13:29.850 --> 13:36.970] [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, I don't consider being able to get access to somebody's Twitter account hacking in any sense.
[13:37.110 --> 13:41.770] [SPEAKER_03]: But for the sake of argument, let's just call it hacking, because that's what everybody else is saying right now.
[13:42.150 --> 13:44.190] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Centcom got their Twitter account hacked.
[13:44.610 --> 13:45.450] [SPEAKER_03]: So what?
[13:45.550 --> 13:46.070] [SPEAKER_03]: Who cares?
[13:46.370 --> 13:49.390] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the top story in all the American media.
[13:49.930 --> 13:55.470] [SPEAKER_03]: And it just goes to show how out of touch with reality, this is a Twitter account, for God's sake.
[13:55.930 --> 13:59.890] [SPEAKER_03]: It just makes organizations look stupid maybe for a little while.
[14:00.070 --> 14:01.710] [SPEAKER_03]: It has nothing to do with national defense.
[14:01.710 --> 14:05.230] [SPEAKER_03]: It has nothing to do with any kind of threat to anybody.
[14:05.230 --> 14:13.570] [SPEAKER_03]: And it certainly should not be used as an excuse to further tighten up on privacy or make privacy the enemy or anything like that.
[14:13.570 --> 14:23.790] [SPEAKER_03]: To give you an idea of how crazy and insane this was, there was a group basically claiming to be ISIS that hacked the social media accounts of U.S.
[14:23.850 --> 14:24.910] [SPEAKER_03]: Central Command on Monday.
[14:25.450 --> 14:28.050] [SPEAKER_03]: But here's the thing, and a number of people have noticed this.
[14:28.890 --> 14:32.330] [SPEAKER_03]: ISIS doesn't call itself ISIS, all right?
[14:32.330 --> 14:38.870] [SPEAKER_03]: They were very clear that they named themselves Islamic State or maybe ISIL, if you want to really stretch it a bit.
[14:38.870 --> 14:40.370] [SPEAKER_03]: But they don't call themselves ISIS.
[14:41.090 --> 14:46.730] [SPEAKER_03]: So whoever did this doesn't know the name of their own terrorist group that they allegedly are a part of.
[14:46.890 --> 14:55.570] [SPEAKER_03]: It's probably somebody just looking for attention, probably somebody who basically knows how to get into a Twitter account and not much else.
[14:55.690 --> 15:03.690] [SPEAKER_03]: There was another incident a couple of weeks ago, actually, in England, where the city of Bristol has a bus website.
[15:03.690 --> 15:07.950] [SPEAKER_03]: And for some reason, that bus website was hacked by Islamic extremists.
[15:08.150 --> 15:10.570] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds ridiculous, because it is.
[15:10.770 --> 15:18.790] [SPEAKER_03]: The group apparently wrongly believed the website was the main site for promoting Western travel, because it was called Travel West.
[15:19.210 --> 15:24.850] [SPEAKER_03]: So they got hacked by Islamic quote-unquote hackers.
[15:25.450 --> 15:27.390] [SPEAKER_03]: This kind of thing is happening everywhere.
[15:27.390 --> 15:34.710] [SPEAKER_03]: Anonymous has declared war on ISIS, and ISIS, or people claiming to be ISIS, or hacking French websites.
[15:35.470 --> 15:44.090] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is not the same thing as killing people, not the same thing as blowing up buildings, or shooting down airliners, or anything like that.
[15:44.110 --> 15:47.530] [SPEAKER_03]: Yet it's being treated as if it's something parallel to that.
[15:47.530 --> 15:57.090] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just basically the same absurdity it always has been when people just are playing with technology and using things as graffiti walls.
[15:57.430 --> 16:03.870] [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel, I mean, I don't want to give this CENTCOM story too much attention, but it's gotten so much that I think we need to refute some of it.
[16:04.070 --> 16:12.750] [SPEAKER_07]: The people who ever hijacked this account claimed to be posting secret documents, and much of the media initially took this claim at its word.
[16:12.750 --> 16:20.110] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I took a look at these documents and said immediately, you know, these seem to be not secret documents.
[16:20.390 --> 16:24.310] [SPEAKER_07]: And it was, someone did some research and found them all in the public domain already.
[16:24.470 --> 16:31.190] [SPEAKER_07]: But this is the kind of like inane claim that people can make on the Internet and instantly have reported in the mass media.
[16:31.190 --> 16:31.310] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[16:31.750 --> 16:44.290] [SPEAKER_07]: I feel bad for whoever, you know, bored person probably somewhere in the West did this and is going to, you know, feel the full force of the law come down upon them as though they had actually, you know, hurt the military or something.
[16:44.390 --> 16:46.270] [SPEAKER_07]: But it's just nuts.
[16:46.590 --> 16:46.830] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[16:46.930 --> 16:50.670] [SPEAKER_06]: As you guys said, it's about making, you know, when somebody is made to look stupid.
[16:50.670 --> 17:01.210] [SPEAKER_06]: And when the person who's made to look stupid or when the entity that's made to look stupid is somebody with power, is somebody with money, is somebody with some level of control, they're going to try and push back against that.
[17:01.350 --> 17:04.410] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, how much do we want to give up to give them the right to do that?
[17:05.330 --> 17:22.370] [SPEAKER_03]: The reason I feel strongly about this is because I see what the reaction turns into whenever somebody does anything that could be construed as possibly leading to an event that might cause somebody embarrassment on a computer system someplace.
[17:22.790 --> 17:29.910] [SPEAKER_03]: And as a good example of that, there was a Georgia Tech student, his name is Ryan Pickren.
[17:29.910 --> 17:34.370] [SPEAKER_03]: And he allegedly pulled a prank, a football rivalry prank.
[17:34.750 --> 17:38.870] [SPEAKER_03]: And because he did this, he could wind up being a felon for the rest of his life.
[17:39.010 --> 17:39.510] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's what he did.
[17:39.970 --> 17:50.830] [SPEAKER_03]: Before a game in November between Georgia Tech and the University of Georgia, you know, they're kind of like rivals, he basically was a computer engineering student at Georgia Tech.
[17:51.030 --> 17:57.090] [SPEAKER_03]: He got into the University of Georgia's computer network and posted a message on its online calendar.
[17:57.090 --> 17:58.870] [SPEAKER_03]: It's online calendar.
[17:59.170 --> 17:59.370] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[17:59.730 --> 18:04.410] [SPEAKER_03]: November 29, 2014, 12 p.m., Get Ass Kicked by GT.
[18:04.850 --> 18:08.650] [SPEAKER_03]: He basically changed the calendar event to say that.
[18:08.870 --> 18:18.750] [SPEAKER_03]: Because he did that, he is facing, I think, 15 years in prison, and he can be marked as a felon for the rest of his life.
[18:18.750 --> 18:25.470] [SPEAKER_03]: He will possibly never be able to get a job in the field that he wishes to have a career in.
[18:25.570 --> 18:31.890] [SPEAKER_03]: All because people see this as a serious crime when it actually is just a harmless prank.
[18:32.150 --> 18:34.590] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he could have caused damage if he kept doing things.
[18:34.590 --> 18:38.770] [SPEAKER_03]: He kept doing bad things on a computer system, but, you know, he didn't.
[18:38.770 --> 18:41.230] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like somebody painting something on a wall.
[18:41.470 --> 18:50.190] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, they could have kept painting on the wall and maybe used a jackhammer and torn down the wall and kept going into the building and killing everybody inside it.
[18:50.230 --> 18:51.170] [SPEAKER_03]: But, no, they didn't.
[18:51.270 --> 18:56.690] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just basically a one-time prank message, and it's not being looked at in that way.
[18:56.770 --> 18:57.810] [SPEAKER_03]: We're losing our sense of humor.
[18:57.810 --> 19:13.030] [SPEAKER_03]: We're losing our sense of mischief, and basically equating Twitter accounts to anything serious only makes that a lot more of a reality in our lives and something that we're all going to have to deal with.
[19:13.210 --> 19:16.150] [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel, you know that it's going to get worse, of course.
[19:16.470 --> 19:27.510] [SPEAKER_07]: The law that this Georgia Tech kid and the CENTCOM people, if they ever are found, are going to be charged under is something we've talked about a lot before.
[19:27.510 --> 19:30.030] [SPEAKER_07]: The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, the CFAA.
[19:30.430 --> 19:44.450] [SPEAKER_07]: And I unfortunately haven't had time to digest the proposal, but Obama is planning to strengthen the terms of this bill, which has been used to, you know, get such strong punishments against people who have done so little.
[19:44.570 --> 19:45.970] [SPEAKER_07]: But he thinks that's not enough.
[19:46.370 --> 19:55.550] [SPEAKER_07]: He's making cybersecurity proposals, and so, you know, 15 years in prison for pranking a calendar, that's not enough for Obama.
[19:56.450 --> 20:09.850] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and where another sense that we're losing is our sense of proportion, because these actions that are being taken, you know, they might be the equivalent to writing your name on a desk at school and having to clean up afterward, or, you know, doing something harmless,
[20:09.970 --> 20:16.690] [SPEAKER_06]: doing something stupid, you know, doing a joke that's not necessarily funny, but that is a joke and isn't really hurting anyone in the grand scheme of things.
[20:16.690 --> 20:29.630] [SPEAKER_06]: But as we've talked about so, so much on this show, if you add with a computer to the end of any action someone takes, all of a sudden, everyone's so much more terrified of it, all of a sudden, everyone gets punished so much more seriously about it.
[20:29.710 --> 20:33.750] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's, it's really, it's really a sad and confusing state of affairs.
[20:34.150 --> 20:43.710] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, another, another aspect of this that I, I see whenever we talk about this kind of stuff is what kind of users are we creating with these laws and regulation?
[20:43.710 --> 20:55.510] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, innovation itself is, is, it comes about through testing boundaries and, and, you know, finding out how things work and, and thinking beyond the walled garden.
[20:55.630 --> 20:59.030] [SPEAKER_11]: And I'm afraid that's becoming what the entire network is.
[20:59.130 --> 21:10.590] [SPEAKER_11]: There are entities and, and, and beyond the rationale and the safety and all the excuses, it's, it's creating a system and users that are quite, I, I, what's the word, docile?
[21:11.350 --> 21:13.130] [SPEAKER_11]: I think that's, I think that's the word, yeah.
[21:13.710 --> 21:23.270] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, easily kind of guided, you know, go here for this service, and you use this to talk and you use this to write and, and you only socialize here.
[21:23.570 --> 21:28.890] [SPEAKER_11]: And, and that's not really what it was ever supposed to be in a lot of people's minds.
[21:28.890 --> 21:41.730] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's just this slow creep towards, um, really, as we are, you know, becoming more malleable as the, the scale of the consequences gets ramped up.
[21:41.730 --> 21:44.850] [SPEAKER_11]: Because people are really, really afraid.
[21:46.670 --> 21:50.290] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, uh, listen guys, I know, uh, we have an awful lot to cover tonight.
[21:50.630 --> 21:52.490] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and there's a lot more to come on off the hook.
[21:52.710 --> 21:57.050] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I just wanted to address, um, uh, one listener who wrote in to us.
[21:57.050 --> 22:01.890] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know Kyle has some things to say about some hackerspaces we visited, uh, over here in Europe.
[22:02.130 --> 22:12.190] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, but basically this listener, uh, named Joshua wrote in, uh, to actually follow up on a call that we got late in the show last week, uh, concerning, uh, caller ID.
[22:12.690 --> 22:21.950] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I believe this caller had, um, uh, received a call from somebody and it came from her own house and it had the name of her husband on it.
[22:21.950 --> 22:23.170] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, am I correct, Rob?
[22:23.430 --> 22:24.570] [SPEAKER_06]: That sounds about right, yeah.
[22:25.110 --> 22:25.350] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[22:25.630 --> 22:28.430] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, she seemed very baffled as to how that could have happened.
[22:28.530 --> 22:35.270] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and this listener also asks, um, how do you command a switch to ring, uh, with, uh, its own ID?
[22:35.590 --> 22:36.530] [SPEAKER_03]: Is this something new?
[22:36.630 --> 22:38.110] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and can it be stopped?
[22:38.230 --> 22:44.350] [SPEAKER_03]: Joshua, it's not anything new and there's really no way to stop it because it's the nature of the phone system.
[22:44.630 --> 22:47.370] [SPEAKER_03]: There is a service, um, a company called Spoof Card.
[22:47.550 --> 22:48.670] [SPEAKER_03]: We've talked about them many times.
[22:49.190 --> 22:51.890] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, you can basically, and it's not just this company.
[22:51.950 --> 23:04.290] [SPEAKER_03]: Anybody that does this, it's anybody that, uh, um, has access to the right kind of hardware and software, uh, you can basically change the number that shows up on caller ID screens.
[23:04.750 --> 23:10.670] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and when you do that, um, it accesses the database that stores the name.
[23:10.850 --> 23:12.930] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not the same name that shows up in the phone book.
[23:13.090 --> 23:17.270] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a name that shows up when you call somebody on, on their phone.
[23:17.770 --> 23:19.910] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, it's really hard to get that name to change.
[23:19.910 --> 23:24.030] [SPEAKER_03]: It's usually the same name that's in the phone book, but, uh, it actually comes from a different database.
[23:24.650 --> 23:31.410] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, if you call from your house, your name will show up, assuming your name is affiliated with that number.
[23:31.610 --> 23:45.510] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really actually a rather ingenious way to find out people's phone numbers because if you keep, say, calling yourself and incrementing the number by one, you'll get the name of the person who belongs to that phone number, whether it's listed or not,
[23:45.710 --> 23:48.670] [SPEAKER_03]: assuming they didn't have the foresight to put a fake name there.
[23:49.230 --> 23:55.130] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's something that can have some use in some way, but something that can also be used to trick people.
[23:55.350 --> 24:02.230] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I know of one case where somebody was trying to get a contractor to finish some work on their house and he wasn't answering their call.
[24:02.550 --> 24:10.130] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, when they called the contractor with his own phone number, uh, to his cell phone, he picked up right away and the work was finally finished.
[24:10.850 --> 24:12.610] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so these things are very possible.
[24:12.730 --> 24:19.690] [SPEAKER_03]: If you see your own phone number, I imagine there are some, some telemarketing companies now that actually are sleazy enough to call you with your own phone number.
[24:20.170 --> 24:32.090] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, if you see something like that, express an interest, uh, to the point where you get information from them as to how to buy their product and then report them, all right, for, for harassing people and, and, and things like that.
[24:32.170 --> 24:33.450] [SPEAKER_03]: So this kind of thing is possible.
[24:33.730 --> 24:35.530] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, it's, uh, it can be used for good.
[24:35.530 --> 24:37.890] [SPEAKER_03]: It can be used for bad, but yes, people should be aware of it.
[24:39.470 --> 24:39.990] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, indeed.
[24:40.230 --> 24:46.230] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, yeah, caller ID spoofing, it's not limited to, uh, just spoofing the number that, uh, that you're calling, um, as looking like that.
[24:46.370 --> 24:49.910] [SPEAKER_06]: You can, you can put any number you like in there basically and, uh, and go from there.
[24:50.050 --> 24:55.150] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, when that happens to be the number that you're calling as well, you get the classic, the calls are coming from inside the house scenario.
[24:55.630 --> 25:00.730] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and you know, that can be used for, for fun or it can be used for, uh, for more evil things.
[25:02.110 --> 25:09.130] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, one thing, uh, I did want to get to was all the spaces that, uh, Emmanuel and I got to see in the last couple of days.
[25:09.730 --> 25:19.750] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, just briefly, uh, one space, uh, we started out, uh, the first one we saw was in Dresden and it was really, really nice to talk to those guys.
[25:19.750 --> 25:33.430] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, they had just, uh, been at the Congress as well, and really they were showing us their space, actually looking at expanding and going through kind of real, well, realistic things we don't really think about, but trying to expand, trying to grow, uh,
[25:33.630 --> 25:38.990] [SPEAKER_11]: deal with, uh, the, uh, space, I guess whole building is changing in one way or another.
[25:39.150 --> 25:43.890] [SPEAKER_11]: And they were kind of putting feelers out, uh, to get kind of moving.
[25:43.890 --> 25:48.010] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think they do have a plan at this point, um, but it was, uh, really nice.
[25:48.130 --> 25:51.610] [SPEAKER_11]: We got to go out and, uh, one of, uh, one of the members kind of joined us.
[25:51.630 --> 25:56.270] [SPEAKER_11]: We just, you know, went out briefly and he showed us kind of one of the funkier parts of town.
[25:56.270 --> 26:05.790] [SPEAKER_11]: I guess there's a community radio station that was sort of interesting how they, um, operate with, um, with kind of a sparse radio spectrum there.
[26:06.210 --> 26:10.410] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and when we were there at the station, I was alerted to a poster.
[26:10.410 --> 26:11.970] [SPEAKER_11]: And I don't know if we've talked about it.
[26:12.030 --> 26:12.590] [SPEAKER_11]: This is embarrassing.
[26:12.770 --> 26:25.430] [SPEAKER_11]: We probably have, but there's, um, this, uh, uh, similar bill to, like, ACTA and, uh, PIPA, stuff we've talked about, uh, and it's called T-TIP.
[26:25.730 --> 26:27.250] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think we've talked about it.
[26:27.330 --> 26:31.330] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if we have, but, um, there was some, some, uh, anti-TIP.
[26:31.470 --> 26:35.730] [SPEAKER_07]: Kyle, do you mean the Trans-Pacific Partnership, TPP, or something else?
[26:35.790 --> 26:36.150] [SPEAKER_07]: You got it.
[26:36.310 --> 26:36.590] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[26:36.670 --> 26:37.130] [SPEAKER_07]: You got it.
[26:37.230 --> 26:38.590] [SPEAKER_07]: I think we have talked about that, yeah.
[26:39.310 --> 26:39.670] [SPEAKER_11]: Cool.
[26:39.670 --> 26:46.390] [SPEAKER_11]: So I just wanted to remind people that that's what's going on, and there were some interesting talks about changing copyright, um, at Congress.
[26:46.610 --> 26:48.250] [SPEAKER_11]: Also, CETA, C-E-T-A.
[26:48.330 --> 26:50.450] [SPEAKER_11]: I think that's the Canadian-European Trade Agreement.
[26:51.230 --> 26:53.170] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's a lot of awareness about this.
[26:53.290 --> 26:58.890] [SPEAKER_03]: And this particular radio station that Kyle's mentioning in Dresden, Germany, uh, is actually a commercial station.
[26:59.290 --> 27:09.570] [SPEAKER_03]: But at certain times, I think it's from, uh, from 6 in the evening until 11 at night, uh, they basically, uh, could just give their, their, uh, their frequency.
[27:09.570 --> 27:12.090] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, over to non-commercial, uh, entities.
[27:12.430 --> 27:14.090] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, they broadcast from a different studio.
[27:14.510 --> 27:20.030] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and then at the stroke of 11, or, uh, I think it's longer on weekends, it goes back to being a commercial station.
[27:20.030 --> 27:23.470] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very interesting arrangement, uh, but apparently it's something that's not that uncommon.
[27:23.930 --> 27:32.370] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, uh, I'm sorry, CETA was Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, uh, but it was cool to see the spirit there and get reminded.
[27:32.650 --> 27:42.510] [SPEAKER_11]: It's crazy that, uh, every time I come to Europe, I, I hear about more of these agreements, which are basically the same kind of thing, um, that we, once again, have to kind of be aware of.
[27:42.510 --> 27:53.030] [SPEAKER_11]: But from there, uh, we continued on, um, and we got, uh, a really, really fascinating tour at Brim Lab.
[27:53.350 --> 27:55.790] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, uh, spelled B-R-M Lab.
[27:56.370 --> 28:00.210] [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, this was a major lab in Prague.
[28:00.210 --> 28:03.910] [SPEAKER_11]: They've got about two of them there, and it's one of the larger ones.
[28:03.910 --> 28:05.450] [SPEAKER_11]: And the guys were great.
[28:05.590 --> 28:09.830] [SPEAKER_11]: We, we stopped by, uh, talked to a few of the folks that were there late night.
[28:10.250 --> 28:12.890] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, tons of different project areas.
[28:13.050 --> 28:14.490] [SPEAKER_11]: I, I really can't get into all of it.
[28:14.590 --> 28:18.990] [SPEAKER_11]: They had a, uh, radiation measuring machine that a guy was working on.
[28:19.070 --> 28:22.350] [SPEAKER_11]: It was really, like, laboratory scale and, uh, impressive.
[28:22.730 --> 28:38.050] [SPEAKER_11]: They had a, a fume hood, a bio, um, uh, area where they were, they had a pretty enormous microscope set up, um, that was also sort of being used for decapping and, and some other interesting, um, uh, microchip stuff.
[28:38.610 --> 28:46.730] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, a really interesting kitchen that they had just built, um, with some of the food, help from some of the, uh, food hacking people.
[28:47.230 --> 28:49.470] [SPEAKER_11]: Really just so much stuff going on.
[28:49.670 --> 28:55.290] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I think they also, um, had an ultrasound machine, if you can believe it.
[28:55.570 --> 28:59.630] [SPEAKER_11]: So, it just, it was just a whirlwind, um, talking to those guys.
[28:59.630 --> 29:12.330] [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, from there, we, we, uh, went on to Bratislava, um, in, in, uh, Slovakia, which also, uh, we were able to track down, um, uh, a space there called Progress Bar.
[29:12.630 --> 29:17.130] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and they were having a really, uh, interesting kind of open, open hack night.
[29:17.310 --> 29:21.790] [SPEAKER_11]: I think they had a talk on, um, photographing, uh, astronomical photography.
[29:21.790 --> 29:24.590] [SPEAKER_11]: And then, uh, uh, or astrological?
[29:25.510 --> 29:27.010] [SPEAKER_11]: I think, well, either way.
[29:27.070 --> 29:31.030] [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway, and then after that, they had a talk on, um, simulating space travel.
[29:31.190 --> 29:36.230] [SPEAKER_11]: And they were going through, uh, kind of a cool little, uh, game that you've got to build your own rocket.
[29:36.270 --> 29:38.070] [SPEAKER_11]: And a lot of new members were there.
[29:38.390 --> 29:41.070] [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, we, we basically just had some interesting talks with them.
[29:41.130 --> 29:42.790] [SPEAKER_11]: They're also considering moving.
[29:42.790 --> 29:44.990] [SPEAKER_11]: Right now, they're just in, in sort of a flat.
[29:44.990 --> 29:48.630] [SPEAKER_11]: But it was very cool to, to see the growth and the excitement.
[29:49.010 --> 29:52.510] [SPEAKER_11]: And, and actually a lot of familiar kind of, uh, problems.
[29:52.770 --> 29:54.770] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, idiosyncrasies of running a space.
[29:54.970 --> 29:58.370] [SPEAKER_03]: The place in Bratislava was packed last night when we went there.
[29:58.870 --> 30:08.190] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, over a hundred people attending this lecture on, uh, astronomy and, and, and rocket boosters and all kinds of things like that, uh, that were just kind of, uh, of interest.
[30:08.370 --> 30:12.770] [SPEAKER_03]: But as Kyle said, uh, the subject matter ranges tremendously in progress.
[30:12.790 --> 30:19.610] [SPEAKER_03]: We were seeing people talking about radiation and, um, uh, building their own GSM networks and all sorts of things like that.
[30:19.750 --> 30:28.670] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's really good to see as we travel city to city, there's always a group of hackers someplace that's, uh, waiting to welcome us and to, um, to basically share what it is they're doing.
[30:28.890 --> 30:29.850] [SPEAKER_06]: That's a brilliant scene.
[30:30.110 --> 30:30.990] [SPEAKER_06]: And also Progress Bar.
[30:31.150 --> 30:34.770] [SPEAKER_06]: I got, I, one of my favorite things about hackerspaces is the great names people come up for them.
[30:35.570 --> 30:36.210] [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.
[30:36.350 --> 30:36.970] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[30:37.030 --> 30:48.210] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, they're, um, they're hoping in the next space that they'll actually, uh, have the, um, the bar elements so that, that it'll, um, facilitate, um, grander, larger scale socializing.
[30:48.370 --> 31:00.090] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but yeah, we saw software defined radios being used as a GSM baseband and, and, uh, or base stations and just that kind of awesome stuff that, you know, they're going to put out there and, and share with everybody.
[31:00.090 --> 31:05.350] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's really kind of, uh, inspiring and, uh, well, anyway, so much to talk about there.
[31:05.490 --> 31:09.450] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's going to do it for us because, uh, you have so much more to talk about there in New York.
[31:09.710 --> 31:10.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, indeed.
[31:10.390 --> 31:13.310] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to continue, we're going to continue wandering around, uh, here.
[31:13.790 --> 31:15.890] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, not sure where we'll be next week at this time.
[31:16.410 --> 31:20.570] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, but, uh, if you're in Austria, you might want to, um, send us some email.
[31:20.570 --> 31:27.790] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe we can drop by wherever you happen to be, oth@2600.com and, uh, good hearing your voices, uh, over there in New York.
[31:27.930 --> 31:30.410] [SPEAKER_03]: And I hope that, um, uh, the rest of the show goes well.
[31:30.570 --> 31:33.350] [SPEAKER_06]: And yours have a, have a great trip out there and, uh, get some rest.
[31:33.470 --> 31:33.750] [SPEAKER_06]: It's late.
[31:35.770 --> 31:36.230] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[31:36.370 --> 31:36.650] [SPEAKER_02]: Good night.
[31:36.750 --> 31:37.010] [SPEAKER_02]: Good night.
[31:37.510 --> 31:37.770] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[31:37.990 --> 31:43.110] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, with that note, I will, uh, let them go and, um, get some, get some other folks we know on the phone.
[31:43.390 --> 31:47.470] [SPEAKER_06]: And while I'm doing that, I think, dear listeners, I will leave you once again with some tunes.
[33:03.460 --> 33:04.760] [SPEAKER_09]: We'll be right back.
[33:16.080 --> 33:17.780] [SPEAKER_09]: Pay attention, let's try one of the final lucky.
[33:17.940 --> 33:20.220] [SPEAKER_09]: I was just a little, a little, always very dark.
[33:21.640 --> 33:22.400] [SPEAKER_09]: Let's try it.
[33:22.620 --> 33:24.400] [SPEAKER_09]: He left with me through, gone to his elevations, scientific.
[33:24.640 --> 33:27.260] [SPEAKER_09]: Pay attention, always a funny, negative, negative, an ass phenomenon.
[33:27.680 --> 33:28.540] [SPEAKER_09]: Elastic, wait a minute.
[33:28.600 --> 33:29.920] [SPEAKER_09]: Only, let's try it.
[33:30.140 --> 33:31.960] [SPEAKER_09]: He left with me through, gone to his elevations, scientific.
[33:32.180 --> 33:32.920] [SPEAKER_09]: Pay attention, always.
[33:33.200 --> 33:33.660] He left with me through, gone to his elevations, scientific.
[33:33.660 --> 33:33.660] Pay attention, always.
[33:33.660 --> 33:36.120] [SPEAKER_09]: He left with me through, gone to his elevations, scientific.
[33:36.880 --> 33:38.680] [SPEAKER_09]: Negative, a little, wanna see my neck.
[33:38.820 --> 33:40.420] [SPEAKER_09]: Pay attention, let's try one of the final lucky.
[33:40.640 --> 33:41.580] [SPEAKER_09]: You're just a little boy.
[33:41.640 --> 33:42.220] [SPEAKER_09]: That's it.
[33:42.300 --> 33:42.900] [SPEAKER_09]: That's it.
[33:43.660 --> 33:44.580] [SPEAKER_09]: Only, I know.
[33:44.680 --> 33:45.960] [SPEAKER_09]: Negative, a little, is a bad thing.
[33:46.080 --> 33:46.720] [SPEAKER_09]: Let's check.
[33:48.400 --> 33:49.500] [SPEAKER_09]: Initiate standard scan.
[33:50.220 --> 33:51.040] [SPEAKER_09]: Let me show you.
[34:37.380 --> 34:37.780] [SPEAKER_09]: Negative.
[34:38.300 --> 34:38.960] It's a bad beat.
[34:39.260 --> 34:39.660] [SPEAKER_09]: Negative.
[34:40.220 --> 34:40.580] [SPEAKER_09]: What the fun?
[34:40.660 --> 34:41.080] [SPEAKER_09]: Look at shit.
[34:41.280 --> 34:41.820] [SPEAKER_09]: You're just a little.
[34:42.720 --> 34:43.220] [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see.
[34:43.420 --> 34:43.960] [SPEAKER_09]: Let's check.
[34:44.900 --> 34:45.300] [SPEAKER_09]: Negative.
[34:45.500 --> 34:45.820] [SPEAKER_09]: A little.
[34:45.920 --> 34:46.500] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a bad beat.
[34:46.740 --> 34:47.040] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm hitting.
[34:47.280 --> 34:50.020] [SPEAKER_09]: A little of the fun.
[34:50.740 --> 34:51.860] [SPEAKER_09]: Initiate standard scan.
[35:03.240 --> 35:06.460] [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't like the cartoon because it was dumb.
[35:06.960 --> 35:07.960] [SPEAKER_10]: It was dumb.
[35:12.980 --> 35:16.520] [SPEAKER_10]: I like the cartoon because it's about a scientist that likes science.
[35:18.480 --> 35:19.720] [SPEAKER_10]: Reminds me of home.
[35:19.900 --> 35:20.320] [SPEAKER_10]: It's great.
[35:24.960 --> 35:26.500] [SPEAKER_10]: We love the cartoon.
[35:26.800 --> 35:28.480] [SPEAKER_10]: It was really, really funny.
[35:28.820 --> 35:30.740] [SPEAKER_10]: My eight-year-old son stood here at last.
[35:30.880 --> 35:30.960] The
[35:44.370 --> 35:45.390] alternation was great.
[35:45.530 --> 35:46.970] [SPEAKER_10]: It was funny and crazy.
[35:51.060 --> 35:52.360] [SPEAKER_09]: Initiate standard scan.
[36:46.780 --> 36:47.960] [SPEAKER_06]: And we are back.
[36:48.910 --> 36:49.860] [SPEAKER_06]: We are back here.
[36:50.000 --> 36:51.910] [SPEAKER_06]: And on the phone, we should have Bernie S.
[36:52.020 --> 36:52.320] [SPEAKER_06]: with us.
[36:52.910 --> 36:54.060] [SPEAKER_05]: Greetings from Transylvania.
[36:54.220 --> 36:54.680] [SPEAKER_05]: Or Pennsylvania.
[36:55.700 --> 36:58.160] [SPEAKER_05]: Greetings from... I think those guys are near Transylvania, aren't they?
[36:58.360 --> 36:59.220] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a possibility.
[36:59.480 --> 37:00.450] [SPEAKER_06]: You're sounding a bit clearer.
[37:00.480 --> 37:01.580] [SPEAKER_06]: Is this a landline you're on?
[37:01.580 --> 37:04.580] [SPEAKER_05]: I am actually on a landline tonight on a cordless phone.
[37:05.080 --> 37:07.780] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, thanks for giving me a call.
[37:07.960 --> 37:09.560] [SPEAKER_05]: I heard the first half of the show.
[37:09.560 --> 37:18.620] [SPEAKER_05]: And my jovial voice is not a good representation of how all these things going on are making me feeling.
[37:19.260 --> 37:28.390] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I think these people who were murdered in Paris a couple of weeks ago, or not even, are really being exploited.
[37:28.390 --> 37:29.680] [SPEAKER_05]: Of course.
[37:30.000 --> 37:35.950] [SPEAKER_05]: By our and other governments to take away even more privacy and rights from us.
[37:35.950 --> 37:42.240] [SPEAKER_05]: And this is eerily familiar to me to what happened more than 13 years ago with the PATRIOT Act, right after 9-11.
[37:42.740 --> 37:45.890] [SPEAKER_05]: They suddenly had this huge piece of legislation ready to go.
[37:46.020 --> 37:46.910] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, wow.
[37:47.520 --> 37:49.680] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like all over again.
[37:50.270 --> 38:00.080] [SPEAKER_05]: I've got to disagree with something Mike said about Obama saying try to tighten up things with the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
[38:00.080 --> 38:03.370] [SPEAKER_05]: I think he's loosening the definitions up, actually.
[38:03.520 --> 38:05.330] [SPEAKER_05]: He might be increasing the sentences, Obama.
[38:05.500 --> 38:13.890] [SPEAKER_05]: But he wants, or at least calling for even more increased sentences for people violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
[38:13.890 --> 38:34.700] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm reading here an article in Ars Technica that says that the legal definition of what exceeds authorized access means is going to be made even more vague than it has been since 20 years ago when the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act went into effect.
[38:34.700 --> 38:49.560] [SPEAKER_05]: The new language is going to supposedly be something like someone who would exceed authorization when accessing information, quote, for a purpose that the accessor knows is not authorized by the computer owner.
[38:49.950 --> 38:57.980] [SPEAKER_07]: So, Bernie, I think we can agree that he is, you know, tightening the screws on our civil liberties by loosening the definition in the bill.
[38:58.100 --> 38:59.180] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a good way of putting it.
[38:59.310 --> 39:01.960] [SPEAKER_05]: I like that duality there.
[39:02.120 --> 39:03.960] [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't like it, but I like how you described it.
[39:05.370 --> 39:10.370] [SPEAKER_05]: And then we're also learning that the FBI is broadening their surveillance row.
[39:10.500 --> 39:31.680] [SPEAKER_05]: There's an article in the Times that came out this week that said that while the government's warrantless surveillance program is more often associated with the NSA, the FBI is becoming a significant player in administering it, a newly declassified but heavily redacted report shows.
[39:31.680 --> 39:41.910] [SPEAKER_05]: So, I think all these moves for greater surveillance and greater sentences for people who might have fun with computers are...
[39:42.730 --> 39:52.890] [SPEAKER_05]: I think all these initiatives are being used in a manipulative way based on recent events in the news with people being killed and so forth.
[39:52.890 --> 39:54.740] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's really making me sick.
[39:55.160 --> 39:55.390] Mm-hmm.
[39:55.980 --> 40:00.790] [SPEAKER_06]: And if that isn't enough, there's so much else going on this week, a lot for us to get to.
[40:01.370 --> 40:15.350] [SPEAKER_06]: One of them is Sunday, the 11th, was the second anniversary of the suicide of Aaron Schwartz, an individual who's done so much work in this area and who really left a void in the entire community when he took his own life.
[40:15.350 --> 40:16.390] [SPEAKER_06]: He's been on the show before.
[40:16.600 --> 40:17.870] [SPEAKER_06]: We've talked about him a great deal.
[40:18.720 --> 40:41.350] [SPEAKER_06]: And, yeah, just about on the anniversary, there was a petition put up on the White House's petition site on whitehouse.gov about a year after Aaron killed himself that was asking for the removal of United States District Attorney Carmen Ortiz for what the petition writer felt was overreach in the case of Aaron Schwartz.
[40:42.200 --> 40:49.140] [SPEAKER_06]: And just about a year after that, close to the second anniversary of Aaron's death, the White House responded to this petition.
[40:49.520 --> 40:49.960] [SPEAKER_05]: Finally!
[40:50.270 --> 40:50.890] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, finally.
[40:51.000 --> 40:51.770] [SPEAKER_06]: They got around to it.
[40:52.240 --> 40:56.960] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to read their response here and then we can see how we feel about this.
[40:57.160 --> 40:58.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Are you sure we have time?
[40:58.330 --> 40:59.240] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's very detailed.
[40:59.680 --> 41:00.870] [SPEAKER_06]: It's very detailed.
[41:01.100 --> 41:02.810] [SPEAKER_06]: There are, I think, three whole paragraphs here.
[41:03.270 --> 41:07.350] [SPEAKER_06]: The White House says, Aaron Schwartz's death was a tragic, unthinkable loss for his family and friends.
[41:07.480 --> 41:11.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Our sympathy continues to go out to those who were closest to him and to the many others whose lives he touched.
[41:12.020 --> 41:20.220] [SPEAKER_06]: We also reaffirm our belief that a spirit of openness is what makes the Internet such a powerful engine for economic growth, technological innovation, and new ideas.
[41:20.430 --> 41:30.720] [SPEAKER_06]: That's why members of the administration continue to engage with advocates to ensure the Internet remains a free and open platform as technology continues to disrupt industries and connect our communities in ways we can't yet imagine.
[41:30.950 --> 41:40.770] [SPEAKER_06]: We will continue this engagement as we tackle new questions on key issues such as citizen participation in democracy, open access to information, privacy, intellectual property, free speech, and security.
[41:41.390 --> 41:45.930] [SPEAKER_06]: As to the specific personnel-related requests raised in your petition, our response must be limited.
[41:46.220 --> 41:54.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Consistent with the terms we laid out when we began We the People, we will not address agency personnel matters in a petition response because we do not believe this is the appropriate forum in which to do so.
[41:55.410 --> 41:56.290] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's it.
[41:56.460 --> 42:09.980] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I sort of agree with their analysis that this is maybe not the best forum for making personnel decisions, but I do think there are other forums for making these sorts of decisions, and there are also, like, concrete actions they could take amongst...
[42:09.980 --> 42:13.450] [SPEAKER_07]: to implement some of the kind words they mentioned in the second paragraph.
[42:14.040 --> 42:19.700] [SPEAKER_07]: And, well, you know, I guess he's got two years left to get a move on.
[42:19.700 --> 42:41.290] [SPEAKER_05]: The initiatives that we're referring to, I think, pertain to releasing a lot of the files on the Aaron Swartz case, like the investigators, how the Secret Service took over the case, after local stated officials in Massachusetts decided not to prosecute Aaron Swartz.
[42:41.480 --> 42:45.850] [SPEAKER_05]: And then the feds swooped in and made his life hell.
[42:45.850 --> 42:47.390] [SPEAKER_05]: And we see where that went.
[42:47.700 --> 42:49.980] [SPEAKER_05]: So I would like to see those notes.
[42:50.140 --> 42:54.770] [SPEAKER_05]: I know how the Secret Service acts and what they do, and at least I have it in my case.
[42:55.000 --> 42:56.740] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think this should be public information.
[42:56.740 --> 43:02.060] [SPEAKER_05]: There's certainly no privacy argument at this point, because the defendant is dead.
[43:04.060 --> 43:04.830] [SPEAKER_06]: Privacy, what's that?
[43:04.910 --> 43:05.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[43:05.180 --> 43:16.020] [SPEAKER_06]: And Schwartz, of course, also did so much work in the field of defeating what was going on around, at the time, the SOPA amendment and the CISPA bill as well.
[43:16.140 --> 43:18.800] [SPEAKER_06]: The SOPA and CISPA bills, which were both attempts by Congress to...
[43:19.830 --> 43:20.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, it's a long story.
[43:21.160 --> 43:23.610] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, they're in the past and completely overcome.
[43:24.410 --> 43:25.160] [SPEAKER_06]: And we won.
[43:25.220 --> 43:27.220] [SPEAKER_06]: And, oh, wait, we didn't, because CISPA is back.
[43:27.890 --> 43:28.870] [SPEAKER_06]: CISPA is back.
[43:29.200 --> 43:29.640] [SPEAKER_06]: It's...
[43:30.200 --> 43:38.770] [SPEAKER_06]: A senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee has reintroduced a controversial bill that would help the public and private sectors share information about cybersecurity threats.
[43:39.370 --> 43:41.080] [SPEAKER_06]: This comes from thehill.com.
[43:42.680 --> 43:48.770] [SPEAKER_06]: The Representative Dutch Ruppersberger, a Democrat from Maryland, is putting the bill back.
[43:48.920 --> 43:51.960] [SPEAKER_06]: He was one of the originators of the CISPA bill the first time around.
[43:51.960 --> 43:55.180] [SPEAKER_06]: And now he is back and he has put the bill through again.
[43:55.360 --> 43:56.480] [SPEAKER_06]: The exact same bill.
[43:56.640 --> 44:08.240] [SPEAKER_06]: The exact same bill with no changes that was put through, that the Senate refused to vote on, that basically the Internet engaged in an uproar to defeat.
[44:08.420 --> 44:10.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep, the exact same bill is back up for grabs again.
[44:12.280 --> 44:24.320] [SPEAKER_06]: The measure known as the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act, or CISPA, has been a top legislative priority for industry groups and intelligence officials who argue the country cannot properly defend critical infrastructure without it.
[44:24.820 --> 44:29.720] [SPEAKER_06]: You guys want to comment on what this would actually do that has nothing to do with that stated goal?
[44:30.620 --> 44:34.060] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, what would it do that has anything to do with that stated goal?
[44:35.420 --> 44:38.940] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there's...
[44:39.440 --> 44:49.380] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, what they're betting is that, you know, the people who stood up and stopped CISPA the first time will, you know, be bored, that we will be thinking, hey, we already won that battle.
[44:49.720 --> 44:52.140] [SPEAKER_07]: And it'd be absent this time.
[44:52.290 --> 44:53.290] [SPEAKER_07]: And I hope they're wrong.
[44:53.540 --> 44:53.900] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[44:54.060 --> 44:56.440] [SPEAKER_06]: The original CISPA bill was HR 624.
[44:57.040 --> 44:59.120] [SPEAKER_06]: The reintroduced CISPA is H...
[44:59.120 --> 45:01.000] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, sorry, that's the other way around.
[45:01.000 --> 45:04.080] [SPEAKER_06]: The original bill was HR...
[45:04.080 --> 45:04.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Hang on.
[45:04.900 --> 45:06.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, there's numbers involved.
[45:06.240 --> 45:07.080] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there's numbers involved.
[45:07.080 --> 45:09.480] [SPEAKER_06]: But the original one is the same as the new one.
[45:09.770 --> 45:13.140] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the exact same without any sort of changes or updates.
[45:13.770 --> 45:24.060] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think this was Gizmodo that said perhaps there's some unspoken Beetlejuice rule among congressmen where Ruppersberger is hoping to invoke a vote by saying the same damn thing three times.
[45:25.290 --> 45:25.900] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[45:25.940 --> 45:26.770] [SPEAKER_06]: What do you think, Bernie?
[45:26.880 --> 45:29.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Do we have a chance at knocking this back again?
[45:29.720 --> 45:59.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think Aaron Schwartz did a stunning job a couple of years ago in getting a grassroots movement together to push down this CISPA law that would have really had a big impact on all of our lives with respect to copyrighted information and its use and further encroachment to what we can do with information that we pay for access and so forth.
[46:00.000 --> 46:10.920] [SPEAKER_05]: But I can't say I'm optimistic that somebody with the chops of Aaron Schwartz is going to step up and accomplish what he did.
[46:11.060 --> 46:19.560] [SPEAKER_05]: So many senators and congressmen were just dumbfounded by how he was able to get people to rise up and make this thing go away.
[46:19.700 --> 46:25.400] [SPEAKER_05]: It was an unprecedented amount of public concern about this due to his actions.
[46:25.560 --> 46:37.480] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think now that the government has gotten him out of the way, I only hope somebody stands in his shoes and gets people as riled up about this reincarnated CISPA bill.
[46:37.480 --> 46:47.420] [SPEAKER_06]: The thing that gives me a little bit of hope, Ruppersberger, originally he had a co-sponsor of the bill in 2014, the first time around, which was a former House Intelligence Committee chairman, Mike Rogers, a Republican from Michigan.
[46:47.720 --> 46:49.980] [SPEAKER_06]: But Rogers has since retired from Congress.
[46:50.300 --> 46:52.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Ruppersberger is trying to do it on his own now.
[46:52.340 --> 46:55.140] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I'm sure he can find someone else.
[46:55.320 --> 46:59.380] [SPEAKER_07]: And the lovely thing about all these bills is they're able to push them as bipartisan.
[47:00.320 --> 47:00.640] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[47:00.770 --> 47:04.660] [SPEAKER_07]: Because there's no, you know, party of Internet liberty that I'm aware of.
[47:04.660 --> 47:07.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we need more pirates in Congress, basically.
[47:10.580 --> 47:18.770] [SPEAKER_06]: But this is being put through now to ride the wave of attention that's happened as a result of the Sony attack and now the France attacks as well.
[47:19.900 --> 47:27.100] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, are we the same Internet that fought this successfully once, twice, however many times we need to do it?
[47:27.200 --> 47:31.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Or are we just going to let it go by now because we're tired?
[47:31.640 --> 47:33.270] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think it's a good time to be tired.
[47:35.220 --> 47:36.360] [SPEAKER_05]: We can't be tired.
[47:37.540 --> 47:38.660] [SPEAKER_05]: We have to step up.
[47:38.740 --> 47:46.180] [SPEAKER_05]: It would be insulting to Aaron Schwartz's legacy for us to allow this to be enacted into law at this point.
[47:46.220 --> 47:48.440] [SPEAKER_05]: It really would be a shame if we allowed that to happen.
[47:48.440 --> 47:55.040] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it is literally the job of not just the Congress people, but the lobbyists who they talk to all the time to get this bill through.
[47:55.920 --> 48:06.220] [SPEAKER_07]: So, those of us who, you know, have other jobs and are trying to defeat this thing in our spare time and get tired of that, you know, they have something of a disadvantage.
[48:06.220 --> 48:07.100] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[48:07.440 --> 48:18.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, speaking of the rare, brave individuals who end up at the forefront of these things, Edward Snowden, he was interviewed by PBS for the show Nova Next.
[48:19.500 --> 48:27.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Last June, this interview took place, and now PBS has published a transcript of the entire interview, as well as some video from the interview.
[48:28.740 --> 48:44.520] [SPEAKER_06]: And, apparently, Snowden, who we're always here, we always hear him talking about surveillance and the NSA and how we're being watched, and we haven't heard him talk a lot about cyber war, cyber war itself, the supposed, you know, and I don't like the buzzword.
[48:44.580 --> 48:49.800] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't like the word cyber war, but we haven't heard him talk much about things in this context.
[48:50.200 --> 48:50.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Rob.
[48:50.540 --> 48:50.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes?
[48:50.960 --> 48:54.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Did he have a cyber conversation with the cyber journalist about cyber war?
[48:54.700 --> 48:55.800] [SPEAKER_06]: He cyber may have.
[48:55.940 --> 48:56.500] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, good.
[48:56.500 --> 48:57.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Cyber dammit.
[48:57.560 --> 49:04.940] [SPEAKER_06]: But what we have now is a full conversation with Snowden, and this is being published on pbs.org slash Nova.
[49:05.140 --> 49:06.020] [SPEAKER_06]: You can find it from there.
[49:06.200 --> 49:07.600] [SPEAKER_07]: Rob, I believe you mean cyber published.
[49:07.820 --> 49:11.920] [SPEAKER_06]: It's been cyber published on the cyber Internet, and I'm getting a cyber headache.
[49:12.100 --> 49:27.060] [SPEAKER_06]: But if you go to pbs.org slash Nova and find the full transcript of this interview, there's a lot that you might not know about where things are or how even Snowden himself feels about these things, despite the fact that it's the fields that he was actually working in when he did what he did.
[49:27.290 --> 49:29.180] [SPEAKER_06]: So I would recommend checking that out.
[49:29.290 --> 49:30.080] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's kind of prescient.
[49:30.270 --> 49:31.020] [SPEAKER_05]: If you read...
[49:31.020 --> 49:33.360] [SPEAKER_05]: I've read some of the interview.
[49:33.560 --> 49:38.980] [SPEAKER_05]: How prescient it is with regard to what happened with the Sony situation a few weeks ago.
[49:40.080 --> 49:53.520] [SPEAKER_05]: It's almost as if Snowden obviously didn't know it was going to happen, but it's almost as if he gave this interview last week or a couple of weeks ago.
[49:55.720 --> 49:58.300] [SPEAKER_05]: So we really need to listen to what he has to say.
[49:58.300 --> 50:01.100] [SPEAKER_05]: He has a very interesting viewpoint and very valuable.
[50:01.100 --> 50:04.540] [SPEAKER_05]: He was a valuable speaker at the HOPE conference last July.
[50:04.540 --> 50:07.660] [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess he gave this interview to PBS shortly before that.
[50:09.780 --> 50:10.770] [SPEAKER_06]: He cyber-did.
[50:12.080 --> 50:14.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there's a lot of other things going on.
[50:14.520 --> 50:16.460] [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously, we're keeping an eye on all of this.
[50:18.660 --> 50:20.060] [SPEAKER_06]: What else is going on in the world?
[50:20.500 --> 50:21.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Ah, Ross Ulbricht.
[50:21.770 --> 50:30.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Bernie, you had something to say about the prosecution of Ross Ulbricht, who is accused of running Silk Road and whose trial has just started.
[50:30.940 --> 50:33.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Can you tell us a bit about this individual and what's being done?
[50:33.840 --> 50:38.680] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he's the guy that calls himself Dred Scott Roberts.
[50:38.840 --> 50:39.200] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that right?
[50:39.800 --> 50:41.040] [SPEAKER_07]: Dred Pirate Roberts.
[50:41.270 --> 50:41.560] [SPEAKER_07]: Dred Pirate Roberts.
[50:41.680 --> 50:44.420] [SPEAKER_07]: And we should say allegedly a whole bunch of times, I guess.
[50:44.640 --> 50:44.640] Dred Scott.
[50:44.800 --> 50:46.660] [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, I'm getting my legal things mixed up here.
[50:48.940 --> 51:00.980] [SPEAKER_05]: He allegedly, as an economic experiment, launched this thing called the Silk Road, which other people used to traffic in all kinds of products and services, including drugs.
[51:02.420 --> 51:11.060] [SPEAKER_05]: And there was some discussion on that communications channel about rubbing out some people.
[51:11.220 --> 51:14.980] [SPEAKER_05]: But apparently, the feds are trying to...
[51:14.980 --> 51:21.520] [SPEAKER_05]: They didn't charge him with a conspiracy to rub out people at all.
[51:21.520 --> 51:27.900] [SPEAKER_05]: But they're using that innuendo in this prosecution, which I think is highly unethical.
[51:28.060 --> 51:30.120] [SPEAKER_05]: But the judge let it fly.
[51:30.460 --> 51:41.040] [SPEAKER_05]: But this is really similar to other prosecutions we've seen where people set up Internet communication channels and are being blamed for how other people are using it.
[51:42.580 --> 51:45.020] [SPEAKER_05]: So, this is a case we need to pay attention to.
[51:45.700 --> 51:47.420] [SPEAKER_05]: And I hope we can cover it more.
[51:47.480 --> 51:49.080] [SPEAKER_05]: The trial just started a couple of days ago.
[51:49.640 --> 51:51.840] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we'll probably have more to report on it next week.
[51:52.100 --> 51:55.520] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's interesting that this case went to trial, so few cases do.
[51:55.520 --> 52:07.620] [SPEAKER_07]: His defense is that he started the site but then handed it off to someone else and just so happened to be getting back into it or something when he was raided.
[52:08.000 --> 52:13.000] [SPEAKER_07]: I assume that he's got a better defense than that if he's going to the trouble of going to trial.
[52:13.380 --> 52:17.120] [SPEAKER_07]: But from my understanding, it seems curious.
[52:17.880 --> 52:22.000] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's being charged with hacking-related crimes too when there's not really...
[52:24.600 --> 52:30.200] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't see any evidence that he accessed other systems without authorization.
[52:30.200 --> 52:34.380] [SPEAKER_05]: This is a really broad and vague prosecution in my opinion.
[52:34.790 --> 52:46.270] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't think people should just take on face value that this guy should be locked up for a long time just because he set up a network that other people could use to communicate about.
[52:46.270 --> 52:51.560] [SPEAKER_07]: So there's these sort of policy questions, which I think are genuinely interesting.
[52:52.160 --> 52:58.160] [SPEAKER_07]: But unfortunately, as we know, the courtroom is not the place where you can argue them in most cases.
[52:59.480 --> 53:06.060] [SPEAKER_07]: So he is arguing that he actually did not do the things he was accused of, that someone else did them.
[53:06.540 --> 53:15.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And that is... I mean, obviously, criminal fair trials are important, but in some fundamental sense, a less interesting question.
[53:16.320 --> 53:24.340] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and of course, broad and vague prosecutions are the types that certain people like best because it's very easy to just point to somebody and say they're bad because they're bad.
[53:25.080 --> 53:32.540] [SPEAKER_06]: The less... I think the less specific they are, the less they have to prove before somebody gets sent away for a very long time.
[53:35.020 --> 53:36.540] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, I don't know.
[53:36.920 --> 53:42.200] [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe we shouldn't arrest the people who create streets because sometimes drugs are sold on streets.
[53:42.340 --> 53:42.740] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[53:43.020 --> 53:46.500] [SPEAKER_06]: This is terrifying news and I'm never using another street again.
[53:46.920 --> 53:49.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Got time to read a couple of emails listeners have sent in.
[53:50.140 --> 53:54.000] [SPEAKER_06]: Dakota wrote in, Thanks for your support to bring awareness in regards to the tragedy that occurred today.
[53:54.140 --> 53:57.980] [SPEAKER_06]: This was sent on the 7th, referring to what happened in Paris.
[53:58.300 --> 54:00.940] [SPEAKER_06]: Both you and Lockpicking101 both changed your front page in support.
[54:01.800 --> 54:08.740] [SPEAKER_06]: One more thing to add about the Charlie Hebdo situation is that they have come out with their next issue, their new issue of their newspaper.
[54:09.680 --> 54:16.820] [SPEAKER_06]: And immediately, the newsstands everywhere have sold out of this thing.
[54:17.290 --> 54:26.660] [SPEAKER_06]: And they're hitting eBay for ridiculous amounts of money, which I think if you really want to read the newspaper, it will probably end up online in some form that you can get hold of.
[54:27.620 --> 54:33.640] [SPEAKER_06]: So I would advise against paying a lot of money on eBay for something that's trendily important.
[54:33.640 --> 54:42.270] [SPEAKER_06]: But the newspaper is basically them still doing what they're doing, whether you think it's good or whether you think it's bad or whether you think it's stupid or smart or what have you.
[54:42.440 --> 54:43.440] [SPEAKER_06]: They're still doing it.
[54:43.600 --> 54:47.980] [SPEAKER_06]: So those who I think tried to stop them doing it failed.
[54:48.080 --> 54:50.640] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that can be taken as good news.
[54:50.840 --> 55:00.240] [SPEAKER_05]: And I also noticed, Rob, that I did a little bit of reading about the publisher, Charlie Hebdo magazine or newsletter.
[55:01.160 --> 55:07.580] [SPEAKER_05]: Their circulation was significantly smaller than 2600 magazines up until this thing happened.
[55:07.900 --> 55:11.740] [SPEAKER_05]: And now, you know, it was like 45,000, 50,000, I think.
[55:11.920 --> 55:13.680] [SPEAKER_05]: 45,000 to 60,000 circulation.
[55:14.120 --> 55:16.900] [SPEAKER_05]: Less than 2600 magazines, the hacker look quarterly.
[55:17.220 --> 55:24.540] [SPEAKER_05]: And now, Charlie Hebdo is printed literally, I think about 3 million printed copies of this.
[55:24.720 --> 55:26.040] [SPEAKER_06]: In multiple languages as well.
[55:26.040 --> 55:28.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and they all sold out like virtually overnight.
[55:30.060 --> 55:34.680] [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of the newsstand places were only selling one copy per person because of this.
[55:34.770 --> 55:36.270] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's not like somebody bought them all up.
[55:36.420 --> 55:41.740] [SPEAKER_05]: Like the New York Times bestsellers kind of are all bought by one person to get them up high in the list.
[55:41.740 --> 55:51.960] [SPEAKER_05]: So this is really interesting that so many people are so much more interested in this topic and in this satire and the right to free speech.
[55:52.100 --> 56:00.160] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think whoever was behind killing these cartoonists realized that they've made the problem much worse for themselves.
[56:01.600 --> 56:02.560] [SPEAKER_06]: I think they have.
[56:02.790 --> 56:05.020] [SPEAKER_06]: And on that note, we're just about out of time.
[56:05.440 --> 56:08.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Send us an email, oth@2600.com.
[56:09.600 --> 56:11.320] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, just keep your eyes open.
[56:11.560 --> 56:13.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned for the personal computer show.
[56:13.360 --> 56:14.400] [SPEAKER_06]: For Off The Hook, this is Rob T. Firefly.
[56:14.770 --> 56:15.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Have a very good night.