[00:31.670 --> 00:32.740] [SPEAKER_00]: And a very good evening.
[00:32.880 --> 00:37.460] [SPEAKER_00]: The program coming up next is Off The Hook here on WBAI New York.
[00:38.440 --> 00:40.100] [SPEAKER_00]: It's 7-0-1.
[00:41.560 --> 00:42.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned.
[02:15.600 --> 02:17.200] [SPEAKER_00]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:17.300 --> 02:19.480] [SPEAKER_00]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:19.640 --> 02:22.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:22.460 --> 02:24.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Joined tonight by Rob T. Firefly.
[02:25.480 --> 02:25.940] [SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.
[02:26.260 --> 02:26.900] [SPEAKER_00]: And Kyle.
[02:27.200 --> 02:27.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, I'm here.
[02:28.240 --> 02:30.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And down in somewhere, Bernie S.on the phone.
[02:31.840 --> 02:34.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Greetings from Portland, Maine.
[02:35.860 --> 02:36.880] [SPEAKER_00]: You're kidding, right?
[02:36.880 --> 02:38.500] [SPEAKER_07]: I... No, I really am in Portland.
[02:38.520 --> 02:39.960] [SPEAKER_07]: I was just camping for the past few days.
[02:40.060 --> 02:41.080] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm in Portland, Maine right now.
[02:42.260 --> 02:42.980] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a surprise.
[02:42.980 --> 02:44.440] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know you were traveling.
[02:44.580 --> 02:45.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but Portland, Maine.
[02:45.800 --> 02:47.140] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the area code there, Bernie?
[02:48.080 --> 02:48.700] [SPEAKER_08]: What's the what?
[02:48.840 --> 02:49.220] [SPEAKER_08]: Area code?
[02:49.340 --> 02:49.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[02:50.480 --> 02:53.720] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I would guess it's 9-1-7.
[02:53.900 --> 02:54.820] [SPEAKER_08]: I know it's 9-0-7.
[02:55.400 --> 02:56.600] [SPEAKER_08]: No, I don't know.
[02:56.700 --> 02:58.040] [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't been using the phone for days.
[02:58.240 --> 02:58.800] [SPEAKER_00]: 9-0-7.
[02:59.080 --> 03:00.120] [SPEAKER_00]: That's Alaska, Bernie.
[03:00.260 --> 03:00.960] [SPEAKER_00]: We were just there.
[03:01.100 --> 03:02.400] [SPEAKER_00]: You could have picked a better one than that.
[03:03.340 --> 03:04.560] [SPEAKER_08]: So what is it for Portland?
[03:04.740 --> 03:05.180] [SPEAKER_08]: You should know.
[03:05.180 --> 03:07.560] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it used to be people would know these things.
[03:07.700 --> 03:11.100] [SPEAKER_00]: People would know the area codes for geographic areas, and nobody knows us anymore.
[03:11.380 --> 03:11.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Sad.
[03:11.940 --> 03:13.360] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll have to call Mike Yuhas.
[03:13.440 --> 03:13.940] [SPEAKER_08]: He'd do it now.
[03:14.720 --> 03:17.640] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, expert of days past on area codes.
[03:17.760 --> 03:23.140] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, when the area codes stopped being geographical and started having all kinds of digits in the middle, it got a lot harder.
[03:23.280 --> 03:26.280] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, Maine is no excuse, because I think Maine still has one.
[03:27.100 --> 03:30.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's an interesting bit of folklore here.
[03:30.720 --> 03:32.020] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not folklore because it's true.
[03:32.920 --> 03:40.120] [SPEAKER_00]: If your original area code in your state had a zero in the middle, it meant that was the only area code for the entire state.
[03:40.260 --> 03:43.400] [SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, oh, I don't know, New Mexico, 5-0-5.
[03:43.720 --> 03:45.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Colorado, 3-0-3.
[03:45.500 --> 03:47.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Alaska, 9-0-7.
[03:47.740 --> 03:48.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Hawaii, 8-0-8.
[03:48.980 --> 03:52.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Only one area code, and the zero in the middle indicated that.
[03:52.480 --> 03:54.460] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they felt it necessary to do it that way.
[03:54.460 --> 04:01.880] [SPEAKER_00]: But a place like New York, a one in the middle, 2-1-2, 9-1-4, 5-1-6, 3-1-5, 5-1-8, 7-1-6.
[04:02.080 --> 04:05.180] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm only listing the old ones, not new ones, like 7-1-8.
[04:05.760 --> 04:06.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it got crazy.
[04:06.800 --> 04:09.920] [SPEAKER_00]: And they started introducing 3-4-7 and 6-4-6.
[04:10.080 --> 04:12.260] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, ones that didn't make any sense at all.
[04:12.320 --> 04:13.900] [SPEAKER_00]: And that rule went out the window.
[04:14.040 --> 04:19.600] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you go back to the old days, you'll be able to figure out how many area codes were in a state just by looking at the middle digit.
[04:19.680 --> 04:20.420] [SPEAKER_00]: How cool is that?
[04:21.060 --> 04:21.780] [SPEAKER_07]: It's very cool.
[04:21.780 --> 04:24.140] [SPEAKER_07]: And I've noticed that they don't have 10-digit dialing here.
[04:24.140 --> 04:25.040] [SPEAKER_07]: It's just 7-digit dialing.
[04:25.140 --> 04:32.000] [SPEAKER_07]: Because all the local businesses signed and billboards and business signs all have a 7-digit phone number with no area code.
[04:32.200 --> 04:35.060] [SPEAKER_07]: And I've noticed that there were no Verizon trucks up here.
[04:35.440 --> 04:46.860] [SPEAKER_07]: Because I think about 6 years ago, 5 or 6 years ago, Verizon sold their entire landline plant to a company called First Choice or something.
[04:47.560 --> 04:51.180] [SPEAKER_07]: That is the incumbent local exchange carrier for the entire state of Maine.
[04:51.820 --> 04:53.020] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not Verizon.
[04:54.140 --> 04:56.260] [SPEAKER_00]: I love it when they come up with a name that doesn't apply.
[04:56.540 --> 04:57.300] [SPEAKER_00]: First Choice.
[04:57.460 --> 04:58.080] [SPEAKER_00]: It was no choice.
[04:58.560 --> 04:59.320] [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't have...
[04:59.920 --> 05:00.620] [SPEAKER_08]: Only Choice.
[05:00.760 --> 05:01.900] [SPEAKER_08]: They should call it Only Choice.
[05:02.340 --> 05:02.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[05:03.140 --> 05:04.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's interesting.
[05:04.920 --> 05:10.200] [SPEAKER_00]: So here we are again on this particular day of the week.
[05:10.540 --> 05:14.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And the station turns me into a liar sometimes.
[05:14.600 --> 05:15.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Many times, actually.
[05:15.840 --> 05:23.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I said two weeks ago on these very airwaves that we would not be doing more fundraising because we were only on for one week.
[05:23.640 --> 05:24.540] [SPEAKER_00]: We were preempted last week.
[05:24.680 --> 05:25.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And sure enough, we were.
[05:26.200 --> 05:30.440] [SPEAKER_00]: However, we were told that the fund drive was extended.
[05:30.560 --> 05:31.960] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it's extended through tonight.
[05:32.160 --> 05:33.100] [SPEAKER_00]: Tonight's the last night?
[05:33.260 --> 05:33.560] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that...
[05:33.560 --> 05:34.420] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe so.
[05:34.500 --> 05:35.060] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the last night.
[05:35.220 --> 05:36.700] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is the home stretch.
[05:36.700 --> 05:37.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're a part of it.
[05:37.840 --> 05:39.340] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sorry, people, for lying.
[05:39.620 --> 05:41.360] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know I was lying at the time.
[05:41.780 --> 05:43.560] [SPEAKER_00]: But we are still in fundraising mode.
[05:43.700 --> 05:48.720] [SPEAKER_00]: And to make matters even, well, better or worse, depending on your outlook, we're on for an extra hour.
[05:48.720 --> 05:52.400] [SPEAKER_00]: So the personal computer people managed to get off scot-free tonight.
[05:52.420 --> 05:57.520] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're staying for an extra hour and hopefully getting your phone calls as far as pledges.
[05:57.620 --> 06:01.680] [SPEAKER_00]: But here's something else that might make the whole thing a little bit more palatable.
[06:02.260 --> 06:07.680] [SPEAKER_00]: We are actually going to be taking phone calls from listeners on the air, even though we don't have an incoming phone line.
[06:08.300 --> 06:09.500] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to pull that off.
[06:09.680 --> 06:11.820] [SPEAKER_00]: We told people when we came in, you know, we're going to do this.
[06:11.900 --> 06:12.780] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to take phone calls tonight.
[06:13.420 --> 06:15.020] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, how are you going to do that?
[06:16.340 --> 06:18.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And we said, did we say watch?
[06:18.780 --> 06:20.160] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we said listen, right?
[06:20.520 --> 06:20.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.
[06:20.940 --> 06:22.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because we don't want them watching.
[06:22.160 --> 06:22.900] [SPEAKER_00]: We want them to listen.
[06:23.300 --> 06:24.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we'll do it.
[06:24.340 --> 06:27.320] [SPEAKER_00]: We will take phone calls because we're hackers and that's what we do.
[06:27.960 --> 06:30.860] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, we apologize for that.
[06:30.960 --> 06:33.580] [SPEAKER_00]: But we have a couple of premiums.
[06:33.640 --> 06:41.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go over the premium we had last time, which was the hacker calendar, which I happen to have a copy of right here.
[06:41.300 --> 06:42.560] [SPEAKER_00]: So we can actually look at certain dates.
[06:43.360 --> 06:43.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Rob T.
[06:43.900 --> 06:50.300] [SPEAKER_00]: Firefile, why don't you pick a date at random and tell the folks what happened in the hacker world on that particular day.
[06:50.740 --> 06:54.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we'll tell people how they can get their very own hacker calendar.
[06:54.920 --> 06:55.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Autographed.
[06:55.340 --> 06:57.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Autographed by all of us here at Off The Hook.
[06:57.760 --> 06:57.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[06:58.060 --> 07:01.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, randomly turning to the 16th of April, that was... a few things happened that day.
[07:02.040 --> 07:09.060] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the day the original specification for the file transfer protocol was written by Abbe Boussan in 1971.
[07:09.440 --> 07:09.860] [SPEAKER_01]: FTP.
[07:10.160 --> 07:10.560] [SPEAKER_01]: FTP.
[07:10.560 --> 07:11.640] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a good one.
[07:11.800 --> 07:11.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[07:12.640 --> 07:19.720] [SPEAKER_01]: Also that day in 1977, Apple II, the Apple II was introduced at the West Coast Computer Fair in 1977.
[07:20.840 --> 07:23.220] [SPEAKER_00]: You see, these are things that are not on any of the calendar.
[07:23.400 --> 07:24.800] [SPEAKER_00]: These are things that are of interest to hackers.
[07:25.320 --> 07:29.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll get to know certain dates and what they mean, the significance.
[07:29.860 --> 07:34.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll remember certain things, too, that you can't believe was so long ago.
[07:35.000 --> 07:35.340] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, indeed.
[07:35.340 --> 07:40.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Also on that date, the 16th of April, 1993, was when the White House announced the ill-fated clipper chip.
[07:40.520 --> 07:41.020] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember that?
[07:41.200 --> 07:42.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I sure do.
[07:42.420 --> 07:43.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Bernie, I know you do.
[07:43.080 --> 07:44.020] [SPEAKER_00]: You blew one up once.
[07:45.260 --> 07:45.740] [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[07:45.740 --> 07:47.640] [SPEAKER_08]: We blew one up at the first... Was it the first?
[07:48.160 --> 07:49.440] [SPEAKER_08]: Was it the very first of the conference?
[07:49.440 --> 07:50.500] [SPEAKER_00]: It was the very first one.
[07:50.560 --> 07:52.120] [SPEAKER_00]: It was almost the very last one, too.
[07:53.840 --> 07:54.940] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, we used it in a sense.
[07:55.240 --> 07:56.660] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, we did talk about the clipper chip.
[07:56.780 --> 08:05.060] [SPEAKER_07]: It was a backdoor encryption algorithm built into a chip that was supposed to be mandated for all secure phones, or so-called secure phones in the United States.
[08:05.620 --> 08:08.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And we did talk about how bad an idea this was.
[08:08.340 --> 08:12.840] [SPEAKER_07]: And at the end of the conference, at the closing ceremonies, we actually detonated it with an M80.
[08:13.040 --> 08:13.860] [SPEAKER_07]: It made a big bang.
[08:14.260 --> 08:16.180] [SPEAKER_07]: I wanted to go off with the bang, and it did.
[08:16.880 --> 08:21.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and actually, that's captured for all time on video, I believe.
[08:21.280 --> 08:25.020] [SPEAKER_00]: If you go to our YouTube channel, Channel2600, you can find that particular talk.
[08:25.160 --> 08:27.680] [SPEAKER_00]: It was the closing ceremonies of the first hope in 1994.
[08:28.060 --> 08:29.240] [SPEAKER_00]: And boy, what a lot of fun that was.
[08:29.660 --> 08:32.820] [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully, we will have another hope next year, in 2016.
[08:33.040 --> 08:37.820] [SPEAKER_00]: We are starting the process of figuring out if we really want to go through with this again.
[08:37.960 --> 08:46.700] [SPEAKER_00]: And if so, then we'll get all the details to you over the radio waves, as well as over our website, hope.net.
[08:47.500 --> 09:01.560] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so lots has happened in the last two weeks, since we were here last, including this rather major news story about how every Android phone is woefully insecure.
[09:01.720 --> 09:10.360] [SPEAKER_00]: Millions of phones, in fact, they're even saying a billion people, are running Google's Android operating system can be hijacked by a malicious text message.
[09:10.360 --> 09:13.380] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a reminder of something that became clear a long time ago.
[09:13.560 --> 09:19.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Google made a mistake when it created Android that endangers the security of people who entrust their personal lives to devices running it.
[09:20.260 --> 09:22.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Those opinions are not necessarily ours.
[09:22.240 --> 09:30.880] [SPEAKER_00]: They come from one Tom Semenite from the MIT Technology Review, goes on to say, the problem is not that Android has security holes, all software does.
[09:31.280 --> 09:34.640] [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is that Google lacks an effective way to fix them.
[09:34.840 --> 09:44.380] [SPEAKER_00]: When security problems are discovered in Microsoft's Windows operating system, or Apple's mobile or desktop equivalents, those companies can push out an update to affected computers.
[09:44.520 --> 09:49.060] [SPEAKER_00]: You get a message telling you to install the update direct from the company who made the software.
[09:49.180 --> 09:57.020] [SPEAKER_00]: But in the case, I'm sorry, in the case of Microsoft Windows, in addition, Microsoft's Windows 10, which is being released, I think it was actually released already, was it not?
[09:57.020 --> 09:57.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, indeed.
[09:57.840 --> 09:58.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[09:59.400 --> 10:02.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Such updates are automatic and mandatory for home users.
[10:03.200 --> 10:05.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the model doesn't always work perfectly.
[10:05.280 --> 10:12.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Apple has been accused of being too slow to roll out important security patches, but Google cannot push you for an update for Android.
[10:12.420 --> 10:16.120] [SPEAKER_00]: It hands out the operating system to device manufacturers for free.
[10:16.300 --> 10:24.760] [SPEAKER_00]: They get to tinker with it, to add features or apps of their own, and are the only ones, along with cellular carriers in some cases, that can push updates to the devices they sell.
[10:25.120 --> 10:35.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Google does bind companies that use Android with some restrictions, for example, things having to do with using its app store, but it does not require them to push out security updates quickly.
[10:35.660 --> 10:46.480] [SPEAKER_00]: So that leaves users of Android devices unable to avail themselves of what security experts say is the most important strategy for staying safe, at least according to researchers at none other than Google itself.
[10:46.700 --> 10:55.640] [SPEAKER_00]: They reported recently on a survey that asked computer security pros how they stay safe, applying security updates emerged as the expert's number one priority.
[10:57.420 --> 11:04.180] [SPEAKER_00]: So, basically, there's a bunch of workarounds that Google has come up with for their, what is described here as their flawed security model.
[11:04.320 --> 11:10.220] [SPEAKER_00]: It has shunted many key functions into apps that it can push updates to, updates to via its app store.
[11:11.000 --> 11:19.780] [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't cover all of Android, and the app store doesn't have a way to signal to you whether an app wants to update for security reasons or just to add new features.
[11:20.260 --> 11:33.920] [SPEAKER_00]: The text message vulnerability that was revealed very recently cannot be fully fixed by upgrading apps, and it's not unlikely that most vulnerable phones will never get the security patches for Android that Google has developed and will offer up to manufacturers and cellular operators.
[11:35.900 --> 11:36.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[11:37.400 --> 11:47.800] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of scared just reading this, seeing what the potential is for just getting this... I think it's disguised as a multimedia message of one sort or another.
[11:48.680 --> 11:52.300] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you get this message, you don't even have to open it.
[11:52.480 --> 11:57.760] [SPEAKER_00]: Just getting this message will, allegedly, according to these reports, infect your phone.
[11:58.080 --> 12:06.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, the news reports say hackers will be able to do all sorts of things as if hackers were the only people that would do something.
[12:07.500 --> 12:16.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Criminals of all sorts, governments, corporations, you name it, anybody can take advantage of this gaping hole to do nefarious things.
[12:17.060 --> 12:19.320] [SPEAKER_00]: And they say there's no evidence that's actually been used yet.
[12:19.800 --> 12:25.900] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess we have to see if all the fear is warranted.
[12:26.180 --> 12:28.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Bernie, I know you don't have an Android phone, right?
[12:30.220 --> 12:33.880] [SPEAKER_07]: No, neither I nor Kyle have Android phones.
[12:34.000 --> 12:36.620] [SPEAKER_07]: We have BlackBerry phones, which are allegedly more secure.
[12:36.900 --> 12:48.220] [SPEAKER_07]: One fix I've heard for this, a temporary workaround, is to disable your phone's ability to automatically download MMS messages as opposed to SMS messages.
[12:48.480 --> 12:52.620] [SPEAKER_07]: There is a setting you can say, don't automatically download MMS messages.
[12:52.920 --> 12:56.080] [SPEAKER_07]: That will allow you to peruse them and see if they're from someone you trust.
[12:56.260 --> 12:57.740] [SPEAKER_07]: And then you can download them individually.
[12:58.360 --> 13:01.480] [SPEAKER_00]: It'll just take a half hour to find out where that setting is on your phone.
[13:01.580 --> 13:04.760] [SPEAKER_00]: But once you do that, you can just turn that off.
[13:04.920 --> 13:13.940] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've noticed, but speaking of updates to Android phones, I've noticed that many times I'm alerted that certain apps want to update.
[13:14.260 --> 13:17.920] [SPEAKER_00]: And many of them say, this app needs your permission to update.
[13:18.100 --> 13:18.940] [SPEAKER_00]: And I never give permission.
[13:19.160 --> 13:19.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Never give permission.
[13:19.820 --> 13:20.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Just swipe it away.
[13:20.860 --> 13:24.140] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I find out later, those apps updated without my permission.
[13:24.360 --> 13:25.380] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you like that?
[13:25.520 --> 13:33.100] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, if this didn't happen, I would have a whole lot of apps that were still wanting to update.
[13:33.280 --> 13:37.140] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have none that want to update because they all did it behind my back.
[13:37.260 --> 13:38.660] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've caught them in the act, too.
[13:38.800 --> 13:39.160] [SPEAKER_00]: I've caught them.
[13:39.200 --> 13:44.060] [SPEAKER_00]: I've turned on my phone and I see 50 different things updating in the process of updating.
[13:44.220 --> 13:45.640] [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing that I've given permission for.
[13:45.960 --> 13:50.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't know if I just have a bad relationship with this phone or if that's standard operating practice.
[13:50.840 --> 13:54.100] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to hear from other people who may have experienced similar things.
[13:55.040 --> 14:01.900] [SPEAKER_01]: Generally, when you have an app that just updates itself without asking permission, that's an app that doesn't need any additional permissions for your phone.
[14:01.960 --> 14:14.460] [SPEAKER_01]: Each app on your phone needs permission to use certain parts of your phone, like the ability to see your call history or your contact list or your saved files or other stuff, depending on what the app is and what it needs to do.
[14:14.720 --> 14:22.560] [SPEAKER_01]: So when the requirements of the app change from version to version, that's when it's supposed to ask you permission, I believe is the way it works.
[14:22.740 --> 14:29.100] [SPEAKER_01]: But if it doesn't need to ask you permission for any changes, then it'll just update itself because it doesn't care because it needs the same permissions it always did.
[14:29.740 --> 14:35.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, just continuing with this story just for a moment, to give more more details as to the specifics.
[14:35.660 --> 14:41.140] [SPEAKER_00]: The particular flaw exists in Android's media tool, which is called Stage Fright.
[14:41.820 --> 14:42.960] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've never used it.
[14:43.300 --> 14:44.680] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if that doesn't make me safe.
[14:44.700 --> 14:45.120] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that.
[14:45.240 --> 14:47.620] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just interesting.
[14:47.900 --> 14:49.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is one of these articles.
[14:50.140 --> 14:55.860] [SPEAKER_00]: This comes from a site, Inquisitor.com, where Inquisitor is spelled wrong and you have to figure out how.
[14:56.460 --> 15:03.060] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's one of these news stories that basically points the finger at hackers as, again, the only people that could possibly take advantage of this.
[15:03.200 --> 15:12.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Hackers only need to have a victim's Android mobile phone number to send a remote code execution bug that exploits Android's Stage Fright flaw.
[15:13.320 --> 15:19.280] [SPEAKER_00]: The Android hacking code would be written into a seemingly innocent multimedia message that gets sent to the phone.
[15:19.280 --> 15:28.720] [SPEAKER_00]: And while the hacker would then be able to snoop around areas of the phone that Android Stage Fright's security permissions allow, a hacker... Boy, I don't like this place.
[15:28.720 --> 15:30.360] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like this site at all.
[15:30.620 --> 15:33.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Just keep pounding it into your head that hackers are evil.
[15:33.360 --> 15:35.740] [SPEAKER_00]: And you hear that so many times, so many different places.
[15:35.860 --> 15:37.340] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's enough places in the world saying that.
[15:37.400 --> 15:37.580] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[15:37.680 --> 15:40.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm going to say it again just so I can prove how many there are.
[15:40.580 --> 15:46.320] [SPEAKER_00]: A hacker would still be able to access stored photos and videos, including those stored in an attached SD card.
[15:46.540 --> 15:48.220] [SPEAKER_00]: They could record audio and videos.
[15:48.220 --> 15:51.080] [SPEAKER_00]: They could access the Android devices, Bluetooth, all sorts of fun things.
[15:51.220 --> 15:51.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[15:52.360 --> 15:55.580] [SPEAKER_00]: My view on this is that if it's possible, you should do it.
[15:55.680 --> 15:57.740] [SPEAKER_00]: If you know how to do this, go crazy.
[15:57.960 --> 15:58.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Hack away.
[15:59.000 --> 16:04.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And figure out how to be as nefarious as possible.
[16:04.980 --> 16:06.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Have your voice come out of people's phone.
[16:06.680 --> 16:09.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Change their background picture.
[16:09.920 --> 16:11.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Download their contact list.
[16:11.420 --> 16:13.400] [SPEAKER_00]: Let us know, though, when you do it.
[16:13.520 --> 16:29.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Instead of half the articles that you read these days on hackers, I don't know if people notice this, but half of them simply come from PR pieces that are put out by people either selling something or people who want you to attend a conference or something like that.
[16:29.080 --> 16:33.200] [SPEAKER_00]: If you look in just about every single story, you don't get the full story.
[16:33.380 --> 16:34.980] [SPEAKER_00]: You get up to a certain point.
[16:35.180 --> 16:40.100] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, oh, by the way, the details will be released at a future date.
[16:40.420 --> 16:44.080] [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, the details have not yet been released, yet it's a major story.
[16:44.400 --> 16:48.120] [SPEAKER_00]: When the details get released, that is when I really take an interest.
[16:48.220 --> 16:48.980] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know about this.
[16:49.020 --> 16:50.220] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to see how it works.
[16:50.380 --> 16:56.260] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to have to buy some guy's corporate security software package to figure it out.
[16:56.920 --> 17:01.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of times you read these stories, and it's a security expert talking about something, and they give his website.
[17:02.080 --> 17:12.000] [SPEAKER_00]: And that particular website, when you go to it, will tell you how you can be more secure and not scared to death like you just were reading the story and hearing him describe how insecure things were.
[17:12.760 --> 17:15.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Bernie, you think I've got it right as far as that goes?
[17:16.060 --> 17:18.920] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's pretty much how it is, Emmanuel.
[17:19.160 --> 17:20.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And I agree with you.
[17:20.300 --> 17:31.040] [SPEAKER_07]: People should exploit this thing, because the more it's exploited, the more likely that Google will pressure mobile carriers to push out rollouts.
[17:31.140 --> 17:46.000] [SPEAKER_07]: As the article you originally read stated, the mobile telcos, Sprint, Verizon, T-Mobile, and AT&T wireless, they typically don't push out small updates like this.
[17:46.840 --> 17:51.140] [SPEAKER_07]: They wait for a major operating system upgrade before they push these out to the Android phones.
[17:51.400 --> 17:56.720] [SPEAKER_07]: So you're not going to get any results soon unless you call your mobile carrier and say, what are you going to do to fix this?
[17:56.920 --> 18:02.400] [SPEAKER_07]: And if they see that it's a real problem that's happening more frequently, they might actually do something about it.
[18:03.280 --> 18:04.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Very, very true.
[18:04.740 --> 18:05.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead, Kyle.
[18:05.720 --> 18:06.840] [SPEAKER_02]: There's two things here.
[18:07.040 --> 18:09.800] [SPEAKER_02]: I think one is clicking things erroneously.
[18:10.040 --> 18:14.280] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a classic thing with spam and malware and things in the past.
[18:14.680 --> 18:25.220] [SPEAKER_02]: It's for quite a while been a good rule of thumb is be very vigilant about things that pop up and things that you receive in all user interfaces on all devices.
[18:25.220 --> 18:34.040] [SPEAKER_02]: It's prudent to be very critical of things, especially things that come out of nowhere or seem overly friendly or a little too perfect or not.
[18:34.720 --> 18:35.840] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's one thing.
[18:35.960 --> 18:45.200] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing is the encouragement of diversity, or at least the consistency like what Bernie said about pushing updates.
[18:45.380 --> 18:49.940] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the platform itself, Android specifically, is fairly open.
[18:50.180 --> 19:00.160] [SPEAKER_02]: It's fairly capable as far as people designing things, modifying it and building it the way they want it to be built or to run and on devices of their choice.
[19:00.400 --> 19:13.500] [SPEAKER_02]: But part of that disconnect, like that lack of coordination or the freedom of it that they're in, I think keeps it from being consistent or consistently supported as far as updates go.
[19:14.000 --> 19:29.940] [SPEAKER_02]: So it is a little bit sort of, I think, early still for that operating system to get really mature to a point where it's maintained, especially given the amount of people that depend on it.
[19:30.140 --> 19:43.900] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's part of the problem with the Android platform right now is that the install base is completely fragmented because, as you said, each company, each provider, each manufacturer gets the updates and then, when they're good and ready, pushes them to their customers.
[19:44.940 --> 19:49.760] [SPEAKER_01]: So what that means is that you've got all sorts of different versions of Android running around out there in the wild.
[19:50.880 --> 20:01.100] [SPEAKER_01]: And with any other, with most other platforms, computers, what have you, you can upgrade your operating system when an upgrade comes out, whether it's a commercial product like Windows or whether it's a free one like Linux.
[20:02.000 --> 20:05.480] [SPEAKER_01]: If an update comes out, you can go and get that update and apply it.
[20:05.580 --> 20:12.360] [SPEAKER_01]: But with Android, you don't always even have that option, unless you've done things like root your device and use alternative ROMs and things like that.
[20:12.440 --> 20:25.800] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of troublesome for Android users now who maybe want to upgrade and, you know, try and stave off vulnerabilities like this, but don't even have the option because whoever happened to build their phone hasn't gotten around to providing it for them.
[20:26.060 --> 20:27.020] [SPEAKER_02]: One other comment.
[20:27.580 --> 20:38.460] [SPEAKER_02]: This really reminds me, I don't know, Rob, if you feel the same way, but it reminds me a lot of like 90s stuff with like the ubiquity of Windows machines being then a target because so many people have it.
[20:38.560 --> 20:43.320] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're likely to see a little bit more of this kind of stuff because it is such a huge target.
[20:43.460 --> 20:58.980] [SPEAKER_02]: There are tons of Android devices out there and people I think that would like to exploit this or have a motive to are really going to exploit this fragmentation and kind of disparate installation base.
[20:58.980 --> 21:03.940] [SPEAKER_02]: It just is sort of, I guess, discombobulated.
[21:04.120 --> 21:04.640] [SPEAKER_02]: It's out of sync.
[21:04.820 --> 21:07.620] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not all sort of moving at the same pace.
[21:09.480 --> 21:11.140] [SPEAKER_02]: But in this case, it's exaggerated.
[21:11.160 --> 21:18.960] [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite a bit different than the sort of stratification of Windows installs and stuff that we did see back in the 90s.
[21:18.960 --> 21:19.360] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[21:19.940 --> 21:24.700] [SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to bring up one other story before we move on.
[21:25.880 --> 21:30.180] [SPEAKER_00]: And that comes from a site known as Kim Commando.
[21:30.300 --> 21:31.920] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you ever heard of that particular radio.
[21:32.240 --> 21:32.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[21:32.680 --> 21:32.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, gosh.
[21:32.980 --> 21:35.640] [SPEAKER_00]: This is just another example of what I'm talking about.
[21:35.960 --> 21:43.500] [SPEAKER_00]: They're talking about the dangers of using Wi-Fi, the dangers of using public Wi-Fi at hotels, coffee shops, other places.
[21:43.940 --> 21:53.460] [SPEAKER_00]: A hacker on the same network, yes, a hacker, only a hacker, can snoop on your Internet browsing if you aren't careful, or even slip a virus onto your computer if it's set up wrong.
[21:54.700 --> 21:57.900] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, what if the hacker didn't even have to be in the same building?
[21:58.040 --> 22:00.340] [SPEAKER_00]: What if they could be miles away and high up in the air?
[22:00.600 --> 22:04.560] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the dream of the Italian company, wait for it, the hacking team.
[22:04.560 --> 22:05.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Boom, boom, boom.
[22:05.460 --> 22:14.940] [SPEAKER_00]: So what this particular hacker expert or technology expert is saying is that the hacking team is composed of hackers, that that is the definition.
[22:15.100 --> 22:16.040] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so ironic.
[22:16.100 --> 22:19.120] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really making me grit my teeth so hard.
[22:19.660 --> 22:33.520] [SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't heard the name, they mistakenly say the hacking company, but they mean to say the hacking team, specializes in digital spying and sells the information it finds to governments around the world, including governments trying to silence dissidents and committing human rights abuses.
[22:33.680 --> 22:42.820] [SPEAKER_00]: So at the end of this story, what winds up happening is that they refer to hackers as the threat here.
[22:43.340 --> 22:49.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Instead of needing dozens of hackers roaming around the canvas of the city's Wi-Fi hotspots, you just need a few drones.
[22:49.380 --> 22:51.600] [SPEAKER_00]: And no one at any hotspot would be the wiser.
[22:51.760 --> 22:57.180] [SPEAKER_00]: If that's a worry for us in America, you can imagine it would be a nightmare for political dissidents in a less free country.
[22:57.280 --> 23:10.840] [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, hackers are the threat to dissidents in these foreign countries because they're the ones that are eavesdropping on them and selling these exploits to oppressive governments.
[23:10.840 --> 23:15.000] [SPEAKER_00]: It is just so frustrating because that is exactly what hackers do not do.
[23:15.160 --> 23:26.320] [SPEAKER_00]: That is what corporate drones, if you forgive the expression, will do when they're trying to ally themselves with those in the technological world who look up to hackers.
[23:26.560 --> 23:27.540] [SPEAKER_00]: They say, yeah, we're hackers.
[23:27.540 --> 23:28.440] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll do this.
[23:28.520 --> 23:29.140] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll sell you this.
[23:29.220 --> 23:30.440] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what a hacker does.
[23:30.960 --> 23:39.520] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just so incredibly frustrating to see corporate America just buy into this and to see the name get subverted even more than it already was.
[23:40.940 --> 23:42.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Any thoughts on that, Bernie?
[23:44.280 --> 23:44.720] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[23:45.140 --> 24:17.440] [SPEAKER_07]: I've lost count of the number of talks we've had at HOPE conferences over the past 20 years of hackers who've developed some means or technology to empower whistleblowers and activists and dissidents, political dissidents, to remain private and not have their communications eavesdropped by some evil foreign government or domestic government or so-called hacking team company.
[24:18.680 --> 24:22.040] [SPEAKER_07]: As you pointed out, this is exactly the opposite of what hackers typically do.
[24:22.260 --> 24:27.300] [SPEAKER_07]: Just because a company calls themselves the hacking team doesn't mean they're made up of hackers.
[24:27.460 --> 24:35.740] [SPEAKER_07]: They're made of greedy people who thrive financially in endangering other people's privacy, frankly.
[24:36.740 --> 24:37.160] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[24:37.300 --> 24:51.780] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a good test of these sort of things, if you hear of something being done or being presented by hackers and you want to verify the veracity of this term, see if they're trying to sell you something that you don't understand or see if they're trying to help you understand something.
[24:52.620 --> 25:12.060] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think the kind of hackers that maybe fill up this room right now and maybe do the things that we talk about here, I think there is a whole community of hackers out there that will not just try and sell you something, you know, incomprehensible and make some money and keep you scared.
[25:12.160 --> 25:14.360] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's not what the hacker community is all about.
[25:15.200 --> 25:15.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Correct, yeah.
[25:16.400 --> 25:20.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, it's extremely frustrating and annoying.
[25:20.440 --> 25:22.780] [SPEAKER_00]: And we need to speak out against that whenever it happens.
[25:23.040 --> 25:36.020] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the amount of information about how things actually work is really low by comparison to the fear and the kind of hyperbole that we've heard in the context.
[25:36.260 --> 25:50.800] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, really, you want people to understand how to use these networks safely and how to use machines and software safely, not scare them away from the resource or from the technology itself.
[25:51.260 --> 25:51.860] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[25:51.940 --> 25:53.520] [SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned the hacker calendar before.
[25:53.620 --> 25:56.700] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I gave the phone number out on how you can get your own copy.
[25:56.900 --> 25:59.720] [SPEAKER_00]: That phone number is 212-209-2950.
[25:59.980 --> 26:01.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge of $50.
[26:01.920 --> 26:07.920] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get you an autographed copy of the 2016 hacker calendar that features all kinds of interesting facts.
[26:08.600 --> 26:12.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Rob, you got another date to read to us as far as something that happened in the hacker world.
[26:12.820 --> 26:24.700] [SPEAKER_00]: And in addition to virtually every day of the year, having some bit of history attached to it, we have no less than 14 full color glossy pictures of payphones from around the world.
[26:25.160 --> 26:26.440] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really, really cool.
[26:26.560 --> 26:28.640] [SPEAKER_00]: I know, Kyle, you were involved in the selection process.
[26:28.860 --> 26:29.100] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[26:29.220 --> 26:30.460] [SPEAKER_02]: Heavily, heavily involved.
[26:30.740 --> 26:40.480] [SPEAKER_02]: And these submissions are lovingly sent to us from people all over, really, just who travel, who maybe are from one place or the other.
[26:40.480 --> 26:45.840] [SPEAKER_02]: They visit someplace, they bring back these incredible, gorgeous photos.
[26:46.100 --> 26:52.620] [SPEAKER_02]: And really, we get so many that it is hard to get them into our regular section of the magazine.
[26:52.620 --> 26:55.640] [SPEAKER_02]: So we tend to go through and find the best.
[26:55.660 --> 27:05.700] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is really the fun part is digging through, sifting through many different locations, coming up with themes, sub themes, parallel themes.
[27:06.000 --> 27:10.140] [SPEAKER_02]: It really is an art to come up with this collection.
[27:10.560 --> 27:20.720] [SPEAKER_02]: And it ends up being 16, 14, I think, really gorgeous photos of really hundreds, maybe more that we go through.
[27:20.920 --> 27:30.520] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we come up with some information about each location and the submission, who sent it to us.
[27:30.660 --> 27:33.080] [SPEAKER_02]: We definitely notify everyone who's involved.
[27:33.120 --> 27:40.220] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we populate the days with really fascinating hacker-related milestones in history.
[27:40.580 --> 27:40.760] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[27:41.060 --> 27:46.780] [SPEAKER_00]: And virtually every day of the year has something that happened in the hacker world.
[27:46.860 --> 27:48.580] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what makes it really, really interesting.
[27:48.720 --> 27:51.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[27:51.760 --> 27:56.760] [SPEAKER_00]: For a $50 pledge, you will get the 2016 hacker calendar autographed by everybody at Off The Hook.
[27:56.760 --> 28:15.020] [SPEAKER_00]: And you will never again wonder when something happened in hacker history, when a particular site was hacked, when a particular product was started that everybody uses today, or when a bit of freedom was signed away into some horrible bill.
[28:15.200 --> 28:15.840] [SPEAKER_00]: We have it all.
[28:15.940 --> 28:18.240] [SPEAKER_00]: We have all kinds of really, really interesting things.
[28:18.380 --> 28:22.980] [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll benefit from all that by calling 212-209-2950.
[28:22.980 --> 28:28.080] [SPEAKER_00]: But most of all, you'll be supporting the radio station and keeping shows like Off The Hook on the air.
[28:29.620 --> 28:35.560] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd point to also the fact that we've kept this very fresh, very current.
[28:35.780 --> 28:46.660] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you worked really hard and got a lot more real, kind of prescient, recent stuff that is important to reflect on over the next year.
[28:46.820 --> 29:05.440] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a good reminder of the kind of work that hackers are involved with, and the kind of, uh, the kind of, uh, the kind of, uh, important, uh, steps that technology and, uh, society's, uh, uh, conception of, of technology, their use of it.
[29:05.660 --> 29:11.940] [SPEAKER_02]: It's how it's, uh, been influenced and how that, that direction has been, has been shaped by, uh, by hackers.
[29:11.940 --> 29:15.880] [SPEAKER_00]: There are dates in there from 2015 and from last year, 2014.
[29:15.960 --> 29:17.340] [SPEAKER_00]: It's updated constantly.
[29:17.400 --> 29:21.260] [SPEAKER_00]: When something major happens, we either know about it or we're alerted to it.
[29:21.300 --> 29:25.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And we, we simply add it into, uh, uh, to the, uh, list of dates.
[29:25.320 --> 29:32.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's my hope that in the next year or so, we will fill in any blank dates that are left because there are a couple, uh, but less and less every year.
[29:33.040 --> 29:37.840] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, if, if we know of a blank date, well, maybe we should make an extra effort to make sure something gets hacked on that day.
[29:37.840 --> 29:38.260] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[29:38.360 --> 29:46.200] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I think we've been encouraging, uh, especially young people that are, that are, you know, on the verge of, of their first big, uh, triumphant hack.
[29:46.340 --> 29:51.280] [SPEAKER_02]: We, we like to schedule them, uh, and let them, let them know what dates are work for them.
[29:51.320 --> 29:51.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[29:51.700 --> 29:52.760] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to be careful.
[29:52.760 --> 30:02.720] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to make sure people are responsible, uh, because we, we, uh, we want people to do the right thing as well, you know, be mischievous and, and, and learn how, how technology works.
[30:02.860 --> 30:03.540] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm embellishing it.
[30:03.540 --> 30:07.620] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we got, we got a letter from somebody who said we were radicalizing people here on the, on the radio.
[30:07.920 --> 30:08.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[30:08.180 --> 30:08.460] [SPEAKER_00]: We got it.
[30:08.520 --> 30:11.160] [SPEAKER_00]: We got a letter saying that we're radicalizing.
[30:11.580 --> 30:12.220] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you like that?
[30:12.700 --> 30:13.520] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll read that letter.
[30:13.800 --> 30:19.440] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is this radical in the 1980s sense of like, wow, that's radical or, uh, uh, no, I don't think so.
[30:19.560 --> 30:20.120] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so at all.
[30:20.160 --> 30:20.800] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a date for us.
[30:20.860 --> 30:27.600] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, well, um, I do, uh, I opened this randomly to February, 2015, and there's all sorts of, uh, good things going on.
[30:27.700 --> 30:30.360] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, this is the 2015 calendar I'm holding in my hand.
[30:30.420 --> 30:42.300] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll be getting the 2016 calendar, but, uh, we have things like, uh, the first, uh, the first telephone book was a single page, um, published by the district telephone company of New Haven, Connecticut on the 21st of February, 1878.
[30:43.140 --> 30:50.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we have things like the 10th of February, uh, deep blue becomes the first machine to win a chess game against a reigning world champion, Gary Kasparov, uh, 1996.
[30:50.920 --> 30:51.680] [SPEAKER_00]: What, what date is this?
[30:51.780 --> 30:53.700] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the 10th of February, uh, 1996.
[30:53.860 --> 30:56.240] [SPEAKER_01]: This happened on the 10th of February, 1996.
[30:56.640 --> 30:59.640] [SPEAKER_01]: Also takedown.com was hijacked by the Mitnick liberation front.
[30:59.840 --> 31:00.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[31:00.160 --> 31:00.720] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember that.
[31:01.660 --> 31:02.320] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, indeed.
[31:02.740 --> 31:04.600] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we have a spectator, not as a participant.
[31:05.040 --> 31:05.280] [SPEAKER_01]: As a spectator.
[31:05.900 --> 31:09.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but, uh, whatever, like there are so many different categories of things you'll find in here.
[31:09.540 --> 31:17.180] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you know, things of just, uh, scientific and, um, interest like, uh, the 19th of February, Soviet Union launches the Mir spacecraft, 1986.
[31:17.960 --> 31:20.660] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, there's, uh, stuff, uh, particular to hacker history.
[31:20.740 --> 31:26.760] [SPEAKER_01]: The first bulletin board system goes online, um, established by Ward Christensen, 1978 on the 16th of February.
[31:27.100 --> 31:27.960] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all here.
[31:28.060 --> 31:32.380] [SPEAKER_00]: The new, the old, uh, all over the world, all kinds of history.
[31:32.600 --> 31:34.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me ask you, Rob, do you, do we have an entry for today?
[31:35.220 --> 31:36.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Do we have an entry for today?
[31:36.940 --> 31:37.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Does anybody know what month it is?
[31:37.820 --> 31:39.360] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the 5th of August today?
[31:39.380 --> 31:40.740] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the 5th of August already.
[31:41.060 --> 31:41.260] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[31:41.500 --> 31:43.660] [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing, there is nothing here for the 5th of August.
[31:43.660 --> 31:44.540] [SPEAKER_00]: So today is one of those days.
[31:44.680 --> 32:00.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Folks, you have about, well, I guess if we count the West Coast, it would count as today, but you have about four and a half hours or so to hack something and get it into the papers and make it like something really, uh, monumental so that it'll go into the 2017 calendar when that's done.
[32:00.140 --> 32:09.060] [SPEAKER_01]: As of, as of when the 2015 calendar was printed, uh, there was nothing listed for the 5th, but, uh, for the, uh, 6th, the World Wide Web project was announced on USENET by Tim Berners-Lee.
[32:09.260 --> 32:09.940] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you know.
[32:10.200 --> 32:10.620] [SPEAKER_01]: 6th of August, 1991.
[32:11.020 --> 32:13.680] [SPEAKER_00]: Now you know you can celebrate that fact tomorrow.
[32:14.100 --> 32:14.300] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[32:14.300 --> 32:14.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Right in early.
[32:15.060 --> 32:16.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Celebrate the birth of the World Wide Web.
[32:17.040 --> 32:23.700] [SPEAKER_01]: You can also celebrate the, uh, anniversary of the first chaos communication camp in Outlandsburg, Germany, 1999 on the 6th of August.
[32:24.060 --> 32:24.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[32:24.520 --> 32:24.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, indeed.
[32:25.140 --> 32:27.220] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we have the one that's about to begin in there as well.
[32:27.600 --> 32:31.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that, is that the same date or is that another, a day further in advance?
[32:31.520 --> 32:32.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know what?
[32:32.300 --> 32:33.920] [SPEAKER_00]: You're looking at, you're looking at last year's calendar.
[32:34.140 --> 32:35.420] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking at the 2015 calendar.
[32:35.440 --> 32:35.580] [SPEAKER_00]: That wouldn't be on there.
[32:35.800 --> 32:41.660] [SPEAKER_00]: But okay, if you were looking at the one that doesn't exist yet because it's being printed right now, uh, then, uh, you would see that particular date.
[32:41.720 --> 32:44.320] [SPEAKER_01]: Which you might be if you're listening to this on MP3 in the mysterious future.
[32:44.480 --> 32:48.140] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[32:48.320 --> 32:55.680] [SPEAKER_00]: $50 pledge gets you the brand new 2016 hacker calendar filled with all kinds of dates and amazing images of payphones.
[32:56.120 --> 32:59.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, tell us something about the payphone that you're looking at right now, August 2015.
[32:59.460 --> 33:00.460] [SPEAKER_00]: What, what payphone is that?
[33:00.560 --> 33:01.680] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a payphone in Morocco.
[33:01.920 --> 33:04.180] [SPEAKER_01]: The folder, the, the photo is by, uh, Leo.
[33:04.480 --> 33:05.480] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say this wrong.
[33:05.580 --> 33:06.820] [SPEAKER_01]: Leo Getier Whiting.
[33:07.560 --> 33:11.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but, uh, it's, it's a beautiful looking, uh, phone kiosk in Morocco.
[33:12.620 --> 33:16.040] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, very obviously sort of, uh, Moroccan wall behind it.
[33:16.140 --> 33:17.580] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a very interesting design of payphone.
[33:17.660 --> 33:18.760] [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like something out of the Jetsons.
[33:18.840 --> 33:20.520] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, um, you guys can see this.
[33:20.640 --> 33:24.080] [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of nice and orange and blue and it's got this, uh, saucer looking thing on top.
[33:24.080 --> 33:25.520] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, hold that up a little bit.
[33:25.540 --> 33:26.840] [SPEAKER_01]: You did a little glare there.
[33:26.980 --> 33:27.080] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[33:27.160 --> 33:27.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[33:27.380 --> 33:27.380] Yeah.
[33:27.380 --> 33:28.900] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's really not, look at that folks.
[33:29.020 --> 33:30.000] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's something else.
[33:30.160 --> 33:32.140] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the kind of image you will, you will get.
[33:32.340 --> 33:33.820] [SPEAKER_00]: You, you can have that in your kitchen.
[33:34.060 --> 33:35.220] [SPEAKER_00]: You can have it in your bedroom.
[33:35.360 --> 33:36.980] [SPEAKER_00]: You could hang it up in your car if you want.
[33:37.060 --> 33:44.800] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't care where you put it, but it's a calendar, a full size wall calendar that, uh, you will prize and treasure every day of the year.
[33:44.880 --> 33:45.320] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[33:45.540 --> 33:46.940] [SPEAKER_00]: It even works this year too.
[33:47.200 --> 33:49.980] [SPEAKER_00]: The last four months of this year are in there just in case you want to get a head start.
[33:50.260 --> 33:50.600] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[33:50.800 --> 33:53.340] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, these photos are very high quality, very sharp, very pretty.
[33:53.520 --> 34:05.320] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you could take these pages and save them when the month passes and just have, uh, some nice posters because they are, they are beautiful images and, uh, payphones are, I think a beautiful piece of technology that, uh, deserve another look.
[34:05.540 --> 34:05.760] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[34:05.840 --> 34:09.840] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the largest that we can print, um, in any publication we do.
[34:10.060 --> 34:13.100] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, these photos are the largest ones that we've done, that we've done.
[34:13.280 --> 34:18.020] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and we pay special attention to make sure that they're cropped in the right way.
[34:18.100 --> 34:24.400] [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure that, uh, they're filling out the, the space that we've allocated for them and, uh, and that they are of high quality.
[34:24.680 --> 34:36.380] [SPEAKER_02]: So, cause we get kind of a range sent in, but it, it really is cool how they come out and just a lot of the beautiful, beautiful color and, uh, stuff that you've just different shapes and, and, uh, designs are amazing.
[34:36.680 --> 34:39.620] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, there's a huge variety with payphones around the world if people aren't familiar.
[34:39.840 --> 34:45.340] [SPEAKER_00]: And what's amazing, you alluded to this earlier, Kyle, is that people send us these photos from, from around the world.
[34:45.780 --> 34:51.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Now we've been publishing the magazine since 1984 and, and, and the payphone photos evolved over, over time.
[34:51.740 --> 34:54.780] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a really mainstream, it's really popular now.
[34:54.920 --> 34:59.960] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's, there's gotta be like five, like half a dozen different like payphone dedicated sites.
[35:00.160 --> 35:00.460] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[35:00.660 --> 35:07.120] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm pretty sure the magazine and it started here with, with, uh, 2600 and, and off the hook.
[35:07.280 --> 35:11.520] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's a very popular thing now to, to photograph payphones, but yeah, absolutely.
[35:11.840 --> 35:12.900] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe it started with the magazine.
[35:13.180 --> 35:13.760] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, definitely.
[35:14.120 --> 35:20.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's, that's really the only place people could have their payphone photos printed and have anybody actually take it seriously.
[35:20.740 --> 35:24.840] [SPEAKER_00]: But what we found out, uh, back in, I guess it was in the nineties that this really started.
[35:25.160 --> 35:25.400] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[35:25.480 --> 35:26.140] [SPEAKER_00]: How'd that emerge?
[35:26.380 --> 35:29.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, someone sent in a payphone photo and we said, Hey, that's cool.
[35:29.980 --> 35:31.200] [SPEAKER_00]: And we decided to print it.
[35:31.700 --> 35:38.460] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, you know, what's funny about that, uh, and, and we learned this going through the archives and digitizing them, which is part of a whole big project we're involved in now.
[35:38.700 --> 35:45.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but we printed that on, I think the inside, uh, back, uh, inside front cover, I think we printed a payphone photo.
[35:45.360 --> 35:51.040] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point we had gone color on the covers, but we didn't realize we could go color on the other side of the cover as well.
[35:51.100 --> 35:56.520] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course we could, but it took us literally years to realize, Hey, we could be printing these payphone photos in color.
[35:56.680 --> 35:56.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[35:57.160 --> 36:01.000] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, then we started doing that and, um, and, and it really exploded at that point.
[36:01.000 --> 36:05.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we're always imploring people to send us things, send us interesting pictures.
[36:06.520 --> 36:18.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Payphone photos by far, even to this day, when payphones are supposedly dead and being pulled out of their existence, wherever they happen to be, that is still the most popular thing that we have at the magazine, which is incredible.
[36:18.540 --> 36:24.040] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, if you have a payphone photo that you'd like to send us anywhere in the world, payphones@2600.com.
[36:24.040 --> 36:30.920] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, we also, also love to get articles from people, because that is how we learn what's going on.
[36:31.600 --> 36:39.400] [SPEAKER_00]: People out there are playing with all kinds of technology, and sometimes the technology is really low-tech as well, but you have a hacker mindset that's attached to that.
[36:39.740 --> 36:42.980] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we implore people to send us articles as well.
[36:42.980 --> 36:47.160] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know, you know, it's 2015, and nobody writes anymore.
[36:47.160 --> 36:48.400] [SPEAKER_00]: I hear that all the time.
[36:48.520 --> 36:53.620] [SPEAKER_00]: I hear nobody reads, nobody writes, everybody just communicates by text message, and I don't believe it.
[36:53.700 --> 36:54.540] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe it's true.
[36:54.640 --> 36:55.980] [SPEAKER_00]: I know there are exceptions out there.
[36:56.080 --> 36:58.720] [SPEAKER_00]: And if anybody qualifies to be an exception, it's a hacker.
[36:58.960 --> 37:02.960] [SPEAKER_00]: So please, email us your articles, articles@2600.com.
[37:02.960 --> 37:03.560] [SPEAKER_00]: What's an article?
[37:03.720 --> 37:12.420] [SPEAKER_00]: An article is something where you basically focus on a particular device or operating system or telephone or anything that you have a passion about.
[37:12.580 --> 37:21.540] [SPEAKER_00]: And you tell us everything you can about it and include all kinds of security holes, security exploits, ways that you can get around certain systems.
[37:21.540 --> 37:36.440] [SPEAKER_00]: If you know of a security operation that's going on as far as, say, I don't know, TSA or something, and you have a secret password that'll get you around all the security or something like that, it's probably not the best example.
[37:36.580 --> 37:41.240] [SPEAKER_00]: But send it to us, because we believe in printing information like this.
[37:41.280 --> 37:49.220] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to hold it over people's heads and say, yeah, you can get this if you come to our seminar or if you become a client of ours.
[37:49.220 --> 37:52.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll say, you know, buy the magazine and you'll get it that way, sure.
[37:53.580 --> 37:56.480] [SPEAKER_00]: But after it's out, it's out, whether you get the magazine or not.
[37:56.480 --> 37:58.380] [SPEAKER_00]: We believe in the information getting out there.
[37:58.520 --> 38:06.620] [SPEAKER_00]: So please, if you have this kind of knowledge and you can put pen to paper or finger to keyboard, articles@2600.com.
[38:06.780 --> 38:16.560] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have something shorter to say and you want to join our infamous letters columnist group of people, which probably is in the thousands by now, letters@2600.com.
[38:16.560 --> 38:17.480] [SPEAKER_00]: It's magical.
[38:17.720 --> 38:19.300] [SPEAKER_00]: It continues to this day and beyond.
[38:20.580 --> 38:23.040] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know things are very troubled in the publishing world.
[38:23.180 --> 38:23.940] [SPEAKER_00]: Believe me, I know that.
[38:24.440 --> 38:30.040] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that I think is a tradition that we are going to carry on for a very long time.
[38:30.140 --> 38:32.720] [SPEAKER_00]: But payphones, yeah, payphones are right in front of everything.
[38:33.220 --> 38:39.240] [SPEAKER_01]: That's always been something I loved about the magazine was it is fueled directly by its readers and its community.
[38:39.520 --> 38:41.960] [SPEAKER_01]: The articles are written by people who read the magazine.
[38:42.140 --> 38:45.080] [SPEAKER_01]: The articles are written by people with something to say who want to put it out there.
[38:45.080 --> 38:49.280] [SPEAKER_01]: And every time I've heard from somebody, you know, oh, you should write about subject XYZ in the magazine.
[38:49.500 --> 38:55.720] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, you write about it because, you know, if you know about it and you want to share that knowledge, that's where 2600 gets its stuff.
[38:55.880 --> 38:58.700] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're the editor and, you know, you write a bit in the beginning and stuff.
[38:58.820 --> 39:04.180] [SPEAKER_01]: But like the bulk of the magazine is fueled directly by the readers and the people who submit.
[39:05.240 --> 39:12.660] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something that I still love about it is, you know, you pick up an issue from any point in its publishing history and you flip through it.
[39:12.760 --> 39:18.200] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's such a vivid picture of everything that was going on in all sorts of corners of the scene.
[39:19.260 --> 39:28.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Just what was going on socially, what was going on technologically, what was going on, you know, in the activism spheres or any of these sort of corners of it.
[39:28.980 --> 39:33.480] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just, it's a really good picture and it's a good snapshot of whatever was going on.
[39:33.600 --> 39:39.520] [SPEAKER_02]: And your ideas, your glint of insight is only real if it's portable.
[39:39.920 --> 39:45.600] [SPEAKER_02]: And in this language, that happens to be English or some good prose.
[39:46.200 --> 39:57.320] [SPEAKER_02]: Use your words, you know, those letters, those articles are really crucial to moving dialogue, to getting other people's ideas involved, getting other eyeballs on certain systems.
[39:57.320 --> 40:07.920] [SPEAKER_02]: And really pushing the limits and also evolving the conversation and people's understanding and thinking around technology.
[40:08.220 --> 40:09.760] [SPEAKER_00]: Your words don't have to be perfect, you know.
[40:09.900 --> 40:16.080] [SPEAKER_00]: If English is not your first language or if you know you have some grammar issues, we generally correct all of that.
[40:16.340 --> 40:17.420] [SPEAKER_00]: It takes time.
[40:17.420 --> 40:21.460] [SPEAKER_00]: But if the content is of interest, that's what we really want to focus on.
[40:21.540 --> 40:22.500] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are so many people out there.
[40:22.600 --> 40:24.300] [SPEAKER_00]: Couldn't do it without the readers.
[40:24.300 --> 40:25.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.
[40:25.180 --> 40:38.820] [SPEAKER_00]: And we shouldn't even try because it would be rather presumptuous to assume that, yeah, we know everything about technology and we're just going to write about what we're told either through those press releases and PR pieces or by our own limited exposure to it.
[40:39.000 --> 40:48.760] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I could write about Android phones, but there are so many people that know so much more about it and can say all kinds of things that I would never even dream of exploring.
[40:49.020 --> 40:49.880] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we want to see.
[40:54.300 --> 41:00.080] [SPEAKER_00]: And letters at 28600.com and payphones at 28600.com are ways you can contribute to the magazine.
[41:00.480 --> 41:03.360] [SPEAKER_02]: 212-209-2950 for the hacker calendar.
[41:03.360 --> 41:08.860] [SPEAKER_00]: That's how you can contribute, yeah, to this radio station and keep this radio show and station on the air.
[41:09.020 --> 41:11.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And $50, you'll get a hacker calendar autographed.
[41:11.640 --> 41:14.060] [SPEAKER_02]: 212-209-2950.
[41:14.180 --> 41:17.340] [SPEAKER_02]: That's 212-209-2950.
[41:17.380 --> 41:22.980] [SPEAKER_02]: Support WBAI and Off The Hook and this kind of discussion.
[41:22.980 --> 41:29.480] [SPEAKER_01]: And you could also go to give2wbai.org and you can go for the calendar.
[41:29.680 --> 41:33.320] [SPEAKER_01]: You can go for other premiums that the station has, just some WBAI stuff.
[41:33.640 --> 41:46.480] [SPEAKER_01]: Just indicate that you're donating on behalf of Off The Hook because donations count toward the particular show that brings them in and that helps us out here and helps us keep this particular show on this particular station on the air.
[41:46.480 --> 41:51.420] [SPEAKER_01]: So, 212-209-2950 or give2wbai.org.
[41:52.580 --> 41:55.940] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not just during this show that we're broadcasting.
[41:55.940 --> 42:02.040] [SPEAKER_01]: You can go there anytime and support the station, support the show, help us keep doing what it is that we love to do.
[42:02.880 --> 42:03.320] [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel.
[42:03.580 --> 42:04.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[42:04.740 --> 42:17.580] [SPEAKER_07]: I just want to say, I want to congratulate you for the many years of documenting these payphone photos, or rather publishing them, or the readers, to document the existence of these unusual payphones around the world.
[42:17.780 --> 42:27.560] [SPEAKER_07]: But you're putting them in the magazine, 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, and now in the annual hacker calendar, I think this deserves merit.
[42:27.780 --> 42:29.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there is nobody else doing this, to my knowledge.
[42:30.040 --> 42:34.600] [SPEAKER_07]: And this is technology that connects people around the world, these payphones, believe it or not.
[42:35.260 --> 42:36.840] [SPEAKER_07]: They still exist around the world.
[42:36.880 --> 42:38.220] [SPEAKER_07]: But I have a question for you.
[42:38.400 --> 42:46.200] [SPEAKER_07]: Is it a conscious decision to not publish the payphone's phone number in the magazine, or is it in the calendar?
[42:46.200 --> 42:54.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I just think it would be neat to have the phone number along with the picture, although maybe the people who submit the pictures don't send you the phone number?
[42:54.840 --> 42:58.600] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't recall an instance where someone has sent us the phone number along with the payphone.
[42:58.680 --> 43:03.340] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, in most cases, if they did that in New York, it wouldn't work, because they don't take incoming calls.
[43:04.260 --> 43:04.380] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[43:04.540 --> 43:13.020] [SPEAKER_00]: The idea really is to print the picture, not necessarily have the payphone rung into oblivion by people calling it wanting to speak to somebody interesting.
[43:13.400 --> 43:14.200] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a caveat.
[43:14.200 --> 43:20.660] [SPEAKER_02]: I just say that we will consider talking about it if it's a part of why that phone is unique.
[43:20.880 --> 43:23.440] [SPEAKER_02]: If it's a part of the story, we will include it.
[43:23.520 --> 43:24.780] [SPEAKER_02]: And we've done that in the magazine a lot.
[43:24.920 --> 43:32.920] [SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about, you know, payphones that work for free of charge, different ways you can use a phone, if it's part of why it is unique.
[43:32.980 --> 43:37.720] [SPEAKER_00]: But we've never wiped out a phone number that might be visible.
[43:37.880 --> 43:43.480] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I think there are a couple of photos where somebody has written the phone number behind the phone in Magic Marker or something like that.
[43:43.720 --> 43:45.440] [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't edit any of that out.
[43:45.600 --> 43:45.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[43:46.160 --> 43:52.740] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what drives me crazy watching various television programs these days is how much is digitized out.
[43:52.860 --> 43:58.740] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they make that little digital jumbly image because they don't want you to see a logo on somebody's T-shirt.
[43:58.980 --> 44:05.480] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't want you to see somebody's face way off in the distance because they didn't get a signed certificate from that person or something like that.
[44:05.780 --> 44:10.080] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, most of the things you're seeing these days are cut out in one way or another.
[44:10.600 --> 44:11.920] [SPEAKER_00]: So we try not to do that.
[44:12.020 --> 44:14.140] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we stick to pretty pure photography.
[44:14.140 --> 44:19.000] [SPEAKER_02]: We take it as it's given to us, and we do very, very little modifying of any of the photos.
[44:19.160 --> 44:26.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and I know people out there are asking, sometimes I can sense when people are asking something en masse, how they can contribute to a future hacker calendar.
[44:27.140 --> 44:36.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you contribute to the payphone section of the magazine, you automatically are also entered into the hacker calendar possibility.
[44:36.020 --> 44:40.440] [SPEAKER_00]: So if your photos don't get printed in the magazine, they may show up in the hacker calendar.
[44:40.560 --> 44:44.460] [SPEAKER_00]: We notify you either way, and you get all kinds of cool things in exchange.
[44:44.740 --> 44:51.220] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, just make sure if you've got a digital photo that it's high enough quality where we can print it, like not web resolution or anything like that.
[44:51.280 --> 44:51.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
[44:52.380 --> 44:54.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Something that could be blown up and printed.
[44:55.160 --> 45:02.420] [SPEAKER_00]: And please don't pose in front of the payphone, because while you might be an interesting person, it's not you that we want to print, it's the payphone.
[45:02.580 --> 45:07.720] [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure that it's just the payphone you take a picture of, not your darling little niece or something in front of you.
[45:07.720 --> 45:10.320] [SPEAKER_01]: You can pose with it if I'm just for yourself in a separate photo.
[45:10.680 --> 45:13.260] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to send us a photo of yourself, sure, go ahead.
[45:13.360 --> 45:14.060] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to stop you.
[45:14.160 --> 45:20.140] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll take anybody's photo of a payphone, and if they were willing to include themselves in it, that's fine.
[45:20.200 --> 45:21.020] [SPEAKER_02]: You can send it to us.
[45:21.120 --> 45:25.900] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's a myriad of things, guidelines, that we could go over as far as what works and what doesn't.
[45:26.020 --> 45:29.380] [SPEAKER_02]: But suffice to say, do your best work and send it to us.
[45:29.420 --> 45:30.260] [SPEAKER_02]: We'd be happy to share it.
[45:30.340 --> 45:33.260] [SPEAKER_00]: We have another premium that we are also offering.
[45:33.400 --> 45:34.980] [SPEAKER_00]: This is not one of our premiums.
[45:35.060 --> 45:38.740] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the station premiums, but we want people to call in regardless.
[45:39.580 --> 45:42.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it's going to provoke a bit of an interesting conversation.
[45:43.260 --> 45:44.500] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a DVD.
[45:44.540 --> 45:45.700] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a documentary.
[45:46.420 --> 45:49.380] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an investigative documentary called Mobilize.
[45:49.540 --> 45:57.900] [SPEAKER_00]: It explores the potential long-term health effects from cell phone radiation, including cancer and infertility and all kinds of other fun things.
[45:58.180 --> 46:07.040] [SPEAKER_00]: The film examines the most recent scientific research, follows national legislative efforts, and illuminates the influence that technology companies have on public health.
[46:07.600 --> 46:13.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Mobilize features interviews with numerous doctors, politicians, cancer patients, and technology experts.
[46:13.960 --> 46:16.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know this is a controversial topic.
[46:17.980 --> 46:23.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Whenever we discuss it, some people are livid that it's all a bunch of nonsense.
[46:24.300 --> 46:28.160] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are other folks who are just as passionate saying that we don't talk about it enough.
[46:28.740 --> 46:30.660] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of on the fence myself, to be honest.
[46:32.040 --> 46:37.200] [SPEAKER_00]: I realize that we're using these devices more than we've ever used them before.
[46:37.700 --> 46:43.980] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that, yeah, there's definitely no health effects from this.
[46:44.060 --> 46:45.100] [SPEAKER_00]: We know for sure.
[46:45.260 --> 46:46.840] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we know anything for sure.
[46:46.920 --> 46:48.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Not at this early stage of the game.
[46:48.200 --> 46:52.260] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't been using these things longer than, say, a decade in their current form.
[46:52.340 --> 46:53.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know they're low power.
[46:54.120 --> 46:54.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, great.
[46:54.980 --> 46:58.640] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's probably better than holding a high-powered transmitter next to your head.
[46:58.960 --> 47:04.680] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's quite possible that something could be there that we don't know about yet.
[47:04.680 --> 47:06.680] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always open to us being ignorant.
[47:06.680 --> 47:17.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, if you want a copy of this film to decide for yourself, please call 212-209-2950 and ask for the mobilized DVD.
[47:17.260 --> 47:19.600] [SPEAKER_00]: That's for a pledge of $100.
[47:20.020 --> 47:22.320] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[47:22.660 --> 47:24.660] [SPEAKER_00]: And now, let the discussion on this premium begin.
[47:24.860 --> 47:25.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Bernie, how about you?
[47:26.860 --> 47:31.140] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, I have my doubts, too, that cell phones can cause cancer.
[47:31.140 --> 47:38.320] [SPEAKER_07]: The key thing, it's not a matter of dispute, is that, yes, cell phones do emit radiation.
[47:38.320 --> 47:44.340] [SPEAKER_07]: But it's not the kind of ionizing radiation you get from an x-ray or something.
[47:44.400 --> 47:45.540] [SPEAKER_07]: This is just radio signals.
[47:45.680 --> 47:51.000] [SPEAKER_07]: No different than the WBAI emits from the top of the Empire State Building.
[47:51.000 --> 47:55.000] [SPEAKER_07]: It's about 4,000 watts, 4,300 to be specific.
[47:55.680 --> 48:03.120] [SPEAKER_07]: Cell phones emit radio signals anywhere from 800 to a couple thousand megahertz.
[48:03.520 --> 48:07.180] [SPEAKER_07]: And at extremely low power, a tiny fraction of a watt.
[48:07.440 --> 48:11.580] [SPEAKER_07]: But this radiation is no more different than radiation from, say, a light bulb.
[48:11.840 --> 48:13.660] [SPEAKER_07]: As far as radiating, it's something...
[48:13.660 --> 48:15.480] [SPEAKER_07]: Radiating means something comes out of something.
[48:15.680 --> 48:16.960] [SPEAKER_07]: But people hear the word radiation.
[48:16.960 --> 48:22.960] [SPEAKER_07]: They think x-ray radiation, the kind of ionizing radiation that would cause people to get cancer.
[48:23.760 --> 48:27.200] [SPEAKER_07]: That's not the kind of radiation that we're talking about with cell phones.
[48:27.560 --> 48:37.080] [SPEAKER_07]: Whether non-ionizing radiation of the type that cell phones emit can cause cancer or not, the jury is still out.
[48:37.200 --> 48:45.800] [SPEAKER_07]: And I agree that the cell phone companies, the manufacturers, and the carriers all want to prevent people from being afraid to buy cell phones.
[48:46.460 --> 48:52.900] [SPEAKER_07]: But at the same time, I have yet to see a serious study that shows that they are dangerous.
[48:52.940 --> 48:54.020] [SPEAKER_07]: But the jury is still out.
[48:54.120 --> 48:55.080] [SPEAKER_07]: I haven't made up my mind yet.
[48:55.200 --> 48:56.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's sort of what I think is.
[48:56.720 --> 48:57.820] [SPEAKER_00]: The jury is still at lunch.
[48:57.900 --> 49:01.780] [SPEAKER_00]: And when they get back, maybe they'll have time to actually look at the evidence.
[49:01.940 --> 49:03.020] [SPEAKER_00]: The evidence is still coming in.
[49:03.160 --> 49:06.040] [SPEAKER_00]: This is, in the scheme of things, new technology.
[49:06.040 --> 49:16.580] [SPEAKER_00]: They said all kinds of things about how insecticide wasn't harmful and all kinds of other technology that turned out or products that turned out to be very harmful.
[49:17.680 --> 49:19.480] [SPEAKER_00]: We just blithely went along.
[49:19.740 --> 49:20.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Cigarettes at one point.
[49:20.660 --> 49:23.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Doctors were recommending cigarettes back in the 1950s.
[49:23.420 --> 49:24.500] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not that long ago.
[49:24.720 --> 49:29.960] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it'll take a long time for the jury to come back with some evidence one way or another.
[49:30.120 --> 49:33.120] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's not close ourselves off to the discussion.
[49:33.120 --> 49:34.440] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we're talking about here.
[49:34.440 --> 49:36.360] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we always talk about at WBAI.
[49:36.460 --> 49:39.140] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we agreed to offer this tonight.
[49:39.460 --> 49:41.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it provokes discussion.
[49:41.380 --> 49:44.760] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you agree with it or not, at least know what people are saying about it.
[49:44.840 --> 49:47.980] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe you can come up with a really good argument against it.
[49:48.020 --> 49:50.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe you'll be convinced and find more evidence.
[49:51.060 --> 49:53.640] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[49:54.080 --> 49:55.640] [SPEAKER_00]: The film is called Mobilize.
[49:55.720 --> 49:57.700] [SPEAKER_00]: It asks for the Mobilize DVD pledge of $100.
[49:58.160 --> 50:01.900] [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll have all kinds of controversial and exciting things to talk about.
[50:02.760 --> 50:06.020] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, the jury is still out.
[50:06.360 --> 50:08.200] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's stop saying the jury is out.
[50:08.760 --> 50:09.800] [SPEAKER_01]: The jury is way out.
[50:09.900 --> 50:10.360] [SPEAKER_01]: It's far out.
[50:10.420 --> 50:11.280] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so far out, man.
[50:11.400 --> 50:16.860] [SPEAKER_01]: But what I think about this is that, okay, I have my feelings about the issue of cell phone radiation.
[50:16.860 --> 50:17.980] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's a big deal.
[50:17.980 --> 50:19.400] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I'm worried about it.
[50:19.520 --> 50:26.780] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, what I respect about this is the ability to have that discussion when the mainstream basically doesn't.
[50:26.780 --> 50:28.600] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we do here at WBAI.
[50:28.680 --> 50:35.560] [SPEAKER_01]: We give voices to people with concerns that might not be generally accepted or might not be fashionable or what have you.
[50:35.720 --> 50:40.180] [SPEAKER_01]: And we enable those discussions to continue to happen.
[50:40.180 --> 50:50.460] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you call 212-209-2950 or go to give2wbai.org and show your support for this station, you can help those discussions still happen.
[50:50.460 --> 51:01.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether or not you agree with them, that's something about this station is if you switch it on, whether it's something you agree with or whether it's something you disagree with, whether it's something that you think is completely sensible or something that you think is wackadoo,
[51:01.540 --> 51:08.340] [SPEAKER_01]: it's still something that I think is interesting and worth putting out there just for the discussion value.
[51:08.980 --> 51:13.680] [SPEAKER_01]: And the venue that we have here is intensely precious and valuable.
[51:13.840 --> 51:17.600] [SPEAKER_01]: And if we lost, nothing like this would ever come up again to replace it.
[51:17.600 --> 51:31.140] [SPEAKER_01]: So, 212-209-2950, or go to give2wbai.org, show your support for this show, for this station, and help us keep doing what we do, and help others on this station keep doing what they do, and help this station keep existing.
[51:33.140 --> 51:44.020] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, call in, 212-209-2950, and pledge your support for Off The Hook and WBAI, and one of these great gifts.
[51:44.300 --> 51:49.720] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen this disc about RF stuff, but it sounds fascinating.
[51:49.720 --> 52:01.080] [SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely something, you know, you should research, and instead of just, you know, buying a bunch of products, access points, and handsets, stuff that do radiate stuff, you should look into it.
[52:01.520 --> 52:04.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing annoys me more than people who dismiss things out of hand.
[52:04.880 --> 52:13.740] [SPEAKER_00]: And, well, actually, maybe something doesn't annoy me more than that, and that's hearing a position put forth without any kind of questioning whatsoever.
[52:13.740 --> 52:25.900] [SPEAKER_00]: So, if we were to be saying that Mobilize is gospel, and this is a fact, and you have to believe it, and you're stupid if you don't, without allowing any kind of discussion, that would annoy me even more.
[52:26.000 --> 52:27.500] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not what WBAI is about.
[52:27.720 --> 52:30.220] [SPEAKER_00]: We're about, well, at least that's not what we should be about.
[52:30.320 --> 52:37.360] [SPEAKER_00]: I know there might be exceptions, but we should be talking about controversial things, and debating them, and having opposite opinions.
[52:37.360 --> 52:44.660] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean crazy opinions, you know, I mean, opinions that are logical, that have different ideas, different conclusions.
[52:45.280 --> 52:58.880] [SPEAKER_00]: There are all kinds, you know, this is how we wound up with the right wing in control for so long, is that we legitimize so many wacky viewpoints, and before you knew it, it became something legitimate, and Fox News was born.
[52:59.300 --> 53:01.160] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we don't have to go down that road.
[53:01.280 --> 53:04.240] [SPEAKER_00]: We can have intelligent conversations about all manner of things.
[53:04.240 --> 53:11.940] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what makes the hacker scene, and what we do, and this station, such a good fit, is that the hacker mindset, basically, is about being inquisitive.
[53:12.060 --> 53:12.700] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about exploring.
[53:12.880 --> 53:19.640] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about doing what you can to learn all you can about something, whether or not it's, you know, it's something that you're generally expected to question.
[53:20.220 --> 53:22.540] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what this station does, and that's what we do.
[53:22.740 --> 53:28.660] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, 212-209-2950, give2wbai.org, help keep this going.
[53:28.820 --> 53:31.540] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've, this show has been on the air since the 1980s.
[53:31.540 --> 53:37.020] [SPEAKER_01]: This station has been on the air since the 1960s, and this is the only thing that has kept it on the air.
[53:37.120 --> 53:41.100] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we don't, we don't have, you know, we don't have paid commercials on here.
[53:41.240 --> 53:45.020] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't tell you what brands of beverages to drink or anything like that.
[53:45.020 --> 53:51.000] [SPEAKER_01]: What we do tell you is simply that this radio that you're listening to, if you enjoy it, support it, help it keep happening.
[53:51.320 --> 53:54.880] [SPEAKER_01]: 212-209-2950, or give2wbai.org.
[53:54.880 --> 54:03.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And if we see a flurry of calls come in, we are going to rack our brains and figure out how we can take your phone call on the air.
[54:03.980 --> 54:07.300] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I should point out, we do not have the means to do that right now.
[54:07.420 --> 54:09.360] [SPEAKER_00]: This studio is not set up to do that.
[54:09.440 --> 54:10.340] [SPEAKER_00]: We have Bernie on the phone.
[54:10.480 --> 54:10.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Bernie, say hi.
[54:12.200 --> 54:13.020] [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, I'm here.
[54:13.040 --> 54:16.100] [SPEAKER_07]: But we only have one line, and it's only for outgoing calls.
[54:16.320 --> 54:16.840] [SPEAKER_07]: And you're on it.
[54:16.920 --> 54:20.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's absolutely no way you can share that line with anybody.
[54:20.280 --> 54:21.100] [SPEAKER_00]: It's crammed.
[54:22.020 --> 54:23.000] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no room.
[54:23.180 --> 54:24.220] [SPEAKER_00]: So don't even try, folks.
[54:24.400 --> 54:25.700] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to get on the phone that way.
[54:26.140 --> 54:27.520] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll think of something else.
[54:27.520 --> 54:28.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we have technology here.
[54:28.920 --> 54:33.200] [SPEAKER_00]: We have all kinds of buttons and knobs and connectivity and various things like that.
[54:33.280 --> 54:34.520] [SPEAKER_00]: So it might not work.
[54:34.660 --> 54:36.880] [SPEAKER_00]: It might end in spectacular failure.
[54:36.900 --> 54:38.020] [SPEAKER_00]: But at least we're going to try.
[54:38.020 --> 54:41.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we have not talked to our listeners since we were in Harlem.
[54:41.780 --> 54:43.300] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a long time ago.
[54:43.300 --> 54:45.620] [SPEAKER_00]: We have not heard the cheerful voices of our listeners.
[54:46.320 --> 54:47.900] [SPEAKER_00]: So we want to hear that tonight.
[54:47.920 --> 54:49.000] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to hear your voices.
[54:49.000 --> 54:50.740] [SPEAKER_00]: But first, we want to see your pledges.
[54:51.080 --> 54:52.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we're not holding the show hostage.
[54:52.800 --> 54:55.520] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not, you know, doing anything like that.
[54:56.220 --> 54:59.380] [SPEAKER_00]: But if we don't get the calls we need, we will kill...
[54:59.380 --> 55:01.660] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess that is sort of like a hostage thing, isn't it?
[55:01.760 --> 55:03.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, there's a better way I can phrase that.
[55:05.460 --> 55:19.020] [SPEAKER_00]: If we don't get the calls that we want to get, it shows us that there's not enough support out there to continue the conversation and open up the phone lines and have a nice little dialogue with our listeners.
[55:19.260 --> 55:23.780] [SPEAKER_00]: So please, why don't you prevent that from happening and be nice and pledge to us.
[55:23.860 --> 55:25.640] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[55:25.820 --> 55:26.880] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you're not pledging ideology.
[55:26.880 --> 55:29.420] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not pledging your firstborn or anything like that.
[55:29.480 --> 55:33.820] [SPEAKER_00]: You're just pledging either $50 or $100 or $150 if you want both items.
[55:34.200 --> 55:36.940] [SPEAKER_00]: We have the hacker calendar autographed by Off The Hook staffers.
[55:36.940 --> 55:42.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And we have the mobilized DVD all about the potential dangers of cell phone radiation.
[55:43.660 --> 55:45.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it makes a terrific gift.
[55:45.820 --> 55:49.080] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950 is our telephone number.
[55:49.180 --> 55:52.940] [SPEAKER_00]: We'd like to see people call in in the moments ahead.
[55:53.180 --> 55:55.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we are on for an extra hour tonight.
[55:55.500 --> 55:58.900] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first hour is rapidly coming to an end.
[55:59.200 --> 56:05.040] [SPEAKER_00]: But during that second hour, we would like to take phone calls and actually hear the cheery voices of our listeners.
[56:05.240 --> 56:05.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't that be nice?
[56:05.920 --> 56:06.920] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be nice.
[56:06.920 --> 56:07.520] [SPEAKER_01]: I miss that.
[56:07.800 --> 56:12.600] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not that I'm tired of just hearing the same voices on the radio all the time.
[56:13.040 --> 56:15.040] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would like to hear some new voices here.
[56:16.160 --> 56:16.660] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[56:16.760 --> 56:21.780] [SPEAKER_00]: And Bernie, hopefully you can hear the voices too, but we're not sure you'll be able to hear them.
[56:21.900 --> 56:24.220] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the very least, you'll be there.
[56:24.960 --> 56:25.360] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[56:25.600 --> 56:25.840] All right.
[56:27.040 --> 56:27.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's... go ahead.
[56:29.640 --> 56:30.760] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I said fair enough.
[56:30.960 --> 56:31.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[56:31.460 --> 56:32.800] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're on some kind of delay.
[56:33.300 --> 56:34.040] [SPEAKER_07]: Are you...
[56:34.040 --> 56:39.680] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I've been turning the mute button on and off so you don't hear foghorns and seagulls here in Portland, Maine.
[56:40.200 --> 56:42.600] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to hear foghorns and seagulls.
[56:42.980 --> 56:44.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you met us?
[56:44.020 --> 56:44.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Come on.
[56:44.540 --> 56:44.760] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[56:44.820 --> 56:45.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Sound effects.
[56:45.620 --> 56:46.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's hear them.
[56:46.340 --> 56:46.640] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[56:46.640 --> 56:51.000] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'll leave the mute button off then because there's seagulls flying around here.
[56:51.140 --> 56:51.300] [SPEAKER_07]: Correct.
[56:51.400 --> 56:52.080] [SPEAKER_00]: And foghorns.
[56:52.960 --> 56:53.500] [SPEAKER_07]: And fog...
[56:53.500 --> 56:55.060] [SPEAKER_07]: There was just a big ship that blew up a big horn.
[56:55.280 --> 56:56.680] [SPEAKER_00]: But not foghorn leghorn.
[56:57.180 --> 56:57.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently.
[56:57.620 --> 56:59.460] [SPEAKER_07]: No, he's my favorite, y'all.
[57:00.300 --> 57:00.840] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[57:00.940 --> 57:01.680] [SPEAKER_00]: Moving on here.
[57:02.100 --> 57:04.020] [SPEAKER_00]: We do have listener mail.
[57:04.320 --> 57:06.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we threaten to read it on the air.
[57:06.880 --> 57:08.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is one of those times we're going to do just that.
[57:09.220 --> 57:10.400] [SPEAKER_00]: We alluded to one before.
[57:10.400 --> 57:11.360] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get to that in a moment.
[57:12.020 --> 57:15.880] [SPEAKER_00]: Our email address, oth@600.com.
[57:16.300 --> 57:20.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Although this guy wrote to oth@2600.org and it somehow got to us.
[57:20.220 --> 57:21.540] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we own that domain as well.
[57:22.460 --> 57:23.100] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, guys.
[57:23.220 --> 57:24.300] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a frequent listener of the show.
[57:24.380 --> 57:26.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Just want to thank you for such a great program.
[57:26.180 --> 57:31.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I want to know if you guys have watched the new USA Network series called Mr. Robot.
[57:31.540 --> 57:33.320] [SPEAKER_00]: If not, I highly recommend it.
[57:33.420 --> 57:34.780] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about hackers and hacking stuff.
[57:34.900 --> 57:36.760] [SPEAKER_00]: But without so much bull.
[57:37.660 --> 57:39.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you, Ant-Men.
[57:39.540 --> 57:41.920] [SPEAKER_00]: No relation to the Marvel superhero, they claim.
[57:42.120 --> 57:44.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you, Ant, for writing in.
[57:45.080 --> 57:45.920] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[57:46.020 --> 57:51.880] [SPEAKER_00]: Kyle and I actually did, based on many of our listeners writing in, we did sample that program on USA.
[57:51.880 --> 57:53.480] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't watched USA Network in forever.
[57:54.280 --> 57:54.940] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[57:56.180 --> 57:57.320] [SPEAKER_02]: That was the last show I watched on USA.
[57:57.320 --> 57:58.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's not even from the USA Network.
[57:58.960 --> 57:59.820] [SPEAKER_00]: This is an original.
[58:01.660 --> 58:08.340] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just didn't like the sound of watching the USA Network, even though USA probably doesn't even stand for United States of America.
[58:08.700 --> 58:10.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Does anybody know what USA originally stood for?
[58:10.660 --> 58:11.680] [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably one of those...
[58:11.680 --> 58:14.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Like MSNBC stood for...
[58:14.080 --> 58:15.280] [SPEAKER_02]: United Studio Artists.
[58:15.400 --> 58:16.460] [SPEAKER_00]: No, CNBC is the one.
[58:16.720 --> 58:18.380] [SPEAKER_00]: Cable, news, and business channel.
[58:18.600 --> 58:23.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though it's an NBC channel, the NBC didn't stand for NBC.
[58:24.000 --> 58:24.460] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't.
[58:24.560 --> 58:26.380] [SPEAKER_00]: And MSNBC probably stands for something else.
[58:26.480 --> 58:27.820] [SPEAKER_00]: So USA, who knows what it stands for?
[58:27.960 --> 58:30.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Point is, it's a channel I didn't watch very often.
[58:30.420 --> 58:32.320] [SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of listeners said...
[58:32.320 --> 58:34.200] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people recommended the show.
[58:34.320 --> 58:35.620] [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Robot's a good show, they said.
[58:35.700 --> 58:36.360] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it disappointed.
[58:36.680 --> 58:37.440] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good show.
[58:37.440 --> 58:37.960] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
[58:38.420 --> 58:40.480] [SPEAKER_00]: We've watched a few episodes now, and...
[58:40.480 --> 58:45.360] [SPEAKER_02]: It's got its own aesthetic, its own pace, its own kind of feel.
[58:46.580 --> 58:47.380] [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely dark.
[58:47.380 --> 58:51.680] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a little kind of surreal.
[58:52.100 --> 58:52.480] [SPEAKER_02]: As it should be.
[58:52.480 --> 58:53.340] [SPEAKER_02]: In some ways, I think.
[58:53.460 --> 58:53.840] [SPEAKER_00]: As it should.
[58:53.860 --> 58:54.400] [SPEAKER_00]: Life is dark.
[58:54.520 --> 58:55.100] [SPEAKER_00]: Life is surreal.
[58:55.300 --> 58:55.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[58:55.560 --> 58:58.840] [SPEAKER_00]: And life takes place in the Lower East Side, which is where a lot of this takes place.
[58:59.160 --> 58:59.440] [SPEAKER_00]: You like that, don't you?
[58:59.440 --> 59:00.200] [SPEAKER_00]: And Coney Island, too.
[59:00.220 --> 59:00.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[59:00.960 --> 59:01.760] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really...
[59:01.760 --> 59:02.780] [SPEAKER_00]: It's well done.
[59:03.180 --> 59:05.100] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got the right mood to it.
[59:05.300 --> 59:06.460] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's...
[59:06.460 --> 59:08.220] [SPEAKER_00]: For the most part, there are a few things.
[59:08.360 --> 59:10.800] [SPEAKER_00]: But for the most part, it's technologically accurate.
[59:10.940 --> 59:11.720] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very accurate.
[59:11.900 --> 59:17.920] [SPEAKER_02]: Whenever they're working with machines, whatever they're doing is pretty well what you would be doing if you were trying to do what they were doing.
[59:18.260 --> 59:21.400] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we've watched CSI Cyber, so we know of what we speak.
[59:21.580 --> 59:22.040] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we know.
[59:22.200 --> 59:23.440] [SPEAKER_02]: We know the good stuff.
[59:23.500 --> 59:28.900] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been to the other side of the mountain, and now we're coming back to the good side.
[59:29.140 --> 59:35.320] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, hopefully, it's been renewed for another year, but hopefully it'll keep up the high quality we've seen so far.
[59:35.380 --> 59:35.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Rob, have you seen it?
[59:36.060 --> 59:36.680] [SPEAKER_01]: I have not.
[59:37.260 --> 59:40.240] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been told by many, many people that I should be watching it.
[59:40.240 --> 59:42.940] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you right now, again, that yes, you should.
[59:43.040 --> 59:43.780] [SPEAKER_00]: How about you, Bernie?
[59:44.700 --> 59:45.780] [SPEAKER_07]: I have not seen it yet.
[59:45.780 --> 59:51.200] [SPEAKER_07]: I watch very little television, but if TV was near me and it was on, I would watch it.
[59:51.320 --> 59:51.900] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, new rule.
[59:52.020 --> 59:57.140] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this should be something that everybody affiliated with the show should do is watch every program having to do with hacking.
[59:57.340 --> 59:58.900] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that every program has to do with hacking.
[59:58.900 --> 59:59.700] [SPEAKER_02]: Could we have a vote?
[59:59.700 --> 01:00:02.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Every single program has a hacker in it someplace.
[01:00:02.600 --> 01:00:03.400] [SPEAKER_02]: Could we vote?
[01:00:03.600 --> 01:00:05.740] [SPEAKER_00]: But how about the shows that focus on hacking?
[01:00:05.900 --> 01:00:13.300] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, we know how bad they are or how good they are and we can tell other people because our listeners look to us for this information.
[01:00:13.640 --> 01:00:16.920] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we were told by our listeners, thank you listeners for letting us know this.
[01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:27.060] [SPEAKER_02]: We should be a cultural well of new and interesting stuff that we see coming on the horizon.
[01:00:27.220 --> 01:00:31.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And speaking of listeners, listeners, you are listening to Off The Hook on WBAI New York.
[01:00:31.580 --> 01:00:36.620] [SPEAKER_00]: You are not listening to the Personal Computer Show because they are on vacation this week.
[01:00:36.740 --> 01:00:38.880] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where they wound up going off to.
[01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:43.740] [SPEAKER_00]: They go on these wild, extravagant trips and we have to fill the gap that they leave behind.
[01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:46.940] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so that was the sound effect, Bernie?
[01:00:48.660 --> 01:00:49.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Sorry about that.
[01:00:49.540 --> 01:00:50.680] [SPEAKER_07]: It was another phone ringing.
[01:00:50.860 --> 01:00:51.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Another phone?
[01:00:51.700 --> 01:00:52.640] [SPEAKER_00]: You have another phone?
[01:00:52.780 --> 01:00:56.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I've long suspected it was someone near me whose phone happened to ring.
[01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:57.260] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't sound like a seagull.
[01:00:57.360 --> 01:00:58.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't sound like a foghorn.
[01:00:58.400 --> 01:00:59.380] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounded like a cell phone.
[01:00:59.640 --> 01:00:59.880] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:01:01.100 --> 01:01:02.100] [SPEAKER_00]: We're learning more and more.
[01:01:02.200 --> 01:01:04.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you guys have any more thoughts on television?
[01:01:04.820 --> 01:01:10.960] [SPEAKER_01]: I will catch up on Mr. Robot because I am a connoisseur of hacker-themed entertainment probably more than is good for me.
[01:01:11.120 --> 01:01:12.840] [SPEAKER_01]: So I will have to check this out now.
[01:01:14.040 --> 01:01:14.400] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[01:01:14.580 --> 01:01:15.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you will have to.
[01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:18.060] [SPEAKER_02]: It definitely embellishes a little bit.
[01:01:18.160 --> 01:01:24.620] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it is not every story we've ever read in any kind of filtered sense.
[01:01:24.680 --> 01:01:26.860] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's amalgamation, right?
[01:01:26.920 --> 01:01:30.600] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not something I think you would take verbatim.
[01:01:30.680 --> 01:01:45.280] [SPEAKER_02]: But there are so many parallels and so many stories in there and attitudes, ways of being, ways people are involved in the community and involved with the media and the outside world.
[01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:53.320] [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many of those things that I think speak to and are instructive and really get to the heart of a lot of the issues we've covered in the past.
[01:01:53.460 --> 01:01:56.180] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's certainly, I think, something you want to go into.
[01:01:56.460 --> 01:01:57.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a little critical eye.
[01:01:58.120 --> 01:02:01.920] [SPEAKER_02]: You probably might know more about one thing or the other of things they cover.
[01:02:02.060 --> 01:02:06.140] [SPEAKER_02]: But it really does encapsulate a sentiment.
[01:02:06.340 --> 01:02:11.560] [SPEAKER_02]: It really does put things together in a pretty well-thought-through way.
[01:02:11.660 --> 01:02:12.960] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it lays it out.
[01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:14.200] [SPEAKER_02]: I was surprised.
[01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:18.540] [SPEAKER_00]: I was actually very surprised by how well it did so far.
[01:02:18.700 --> 01:02:20.840] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
[01:02:21.060 --> 01:02:21.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:02:21.200 --> 01:02:24.540] [SPEAKER_00]: And there certainly are a lot of instances where that's not the case.
[01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:25.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Every...
[01:02:26.240 --> 01:02:27.600] [SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned CSI Cyber.
[01:02:27.700 --> 01:02:31.160] [SPEAKER_00]: There's at least one other out there that really makes me retch when I see it.
[01:02:32.060 --> 01:02:33.380] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are other...
[01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:33.800] [SPEAKER_00]: There are gems.
[01:02:33.940 --> 01:02:39.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Silicon Valley is a real funny program on HBO, which is worth tracking down as well.
[01:02:39.420 --> 01:02:42.520] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people in the technology world think it's too real and they don't like it for that reason.
[01:02:42.940 --> 01:02:43.300] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:02:43.420 --> 01:02:45.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Or they think it's too insulting.
[01:02:45.260 --> 01:02:46.220] [SPEAKER_02]: But I have critiques.
[01:02:46.340 --> 01:02:48.580] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't like the main character in Mr. Robot that much.
[01:02:48.700 --> 01:02:48.820] [SPEAKER_02]: There.
[01:02:48.900 --> 01:02:49.340] [SPEAKER_02]: I said it.
[01:02:49.740 --> 01:02:50.560] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean...
[01:02:50.560 --> 01:02:51.160] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's kind of...
[01:02:51.160 --> 01:02:53.260] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about popularity in the hacker world, is it?
[01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:54.100] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it isn't.
[01:02:54.220 --> 01:02:56.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Most times, the best hackers are the most unpopular people.
[01:02:56.260 --> 01:02:58.360] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he has a very irritating personality.
[01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:00.540] [SPEAKER_02]: But maybe that's...
[01:03:00.540 --> 01:03:02.420] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that's the character building on me.
[01:03:02.500 --> 01:03:06.440] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's part of watching and experiencing stories like that.
[01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:11.000] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm spending most of my time trying to figure out what subway line he's riding because it seems like a short line.
[01:03:11.120 --> 01:03:13.660] [SPEAKER_00]: It looks like a shuttle on the Lower East Side they used to run.
[01:03:14.200 --> 01:03:15.040] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's got...
[01:03:15.040 --> 01:03:18.140] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's got a red letter on it, which is also kind of weird.
[01:03:18.420 --> 01:03:18.660] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
[01:03:18.660 --> 01:03:19.500] [SPEAKER_00]: The old style trains.
[01:03:19.640 --> 01:03:21.200] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's the kind of thing I worry about.
[01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:23.480] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I think he's a little cocky.
[01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:24.080] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:03:24.300 --> 01:03:24.440] [SPEAKER_02]: Rob?
[01:03:25.020 --> 01:03:27.780] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this show about somebody whose name is Mr. Robot?
[01:03:28.160 --> 01:03:29.300] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes.
[01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:30.480] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's not give away too much.
[01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:31.520] [SPEAKER_02]: He's not the protagonist.
[01:03:31.540 --> 01:03:32.620] [SPEAKER_02]: That's as much as I'll say.
[01:03:32.780 --> 01:03:33.060] [SPEAKER_02]: Yet.
[01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:33.460] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:03:33.660 --> 01:03:34.540] [SPEAKER_02]: As far as I know.
[01:03:34.660 --> 01:03:35.340] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he is.
[01:03:35.420 --> 01:03:35.780] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:41.380] [SPEAKER_02]: The person we follow and who experiences him is introduced to a Mr. Robot.
[01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:42.780] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is a title character.
[01:03:43.300 --> 01:03:45.100] [SPEAKER_00]: There are decent programs.
[01:03:45.100 --> 01:03:46.980] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know who's going to make it to the next episode.
[01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:47.380] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[01:03:47.620 --> 01:03:52.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And the last episode we saw, he very well might not have made it to the episode afterwards.
[01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:53.080] [SPEAKER_00]: It's possible.
[01:03:53.080 --> 01:03:53.740] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[01:03:54.820 --> 01:03:55.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, hear that?
[01:03:55.700 --> 01:03:56.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Fire engines.
[01:03:56.400 --> 01:04:01.220] [SPEAKER_00]: We have sound effects, Bernie, because we don't have soundproofing in our make-do studios.
[01:04:01.340 --> 01:04:02.220] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a seagull.
[01:04:02.300 --> 01:04:03.940] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a seagull driving a fire engine.
[01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:04.640] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I thought.
[01:04:05.100 --> 01:04:07.600] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it was a real fire truck going down Atlantic Avenue.
[01:04:07.640 --> 01:04:09.320] [SPEAKER_00]: That was exciting.
[01:04:10.040 --> 01:04:10.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:12.680] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, Halt and Catch Fire.
[01:04:13.100 --> 01:04:13.380] [SPEAKER_00]: That program.
[01:04:13.620 --> 01:04:13.840] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah.
[01:04:14.020 --> 01:04:17.360] [SPEAKER_02]: So, Silicon Valley, I think, is good and hilarious and spot on.
[01:04:17.460 --> 01:04:20.020] [SPEAKER_02]: And I love that people don't like it because it reminds them of themselves.
[01:04:20.860 --> 01:04:24.280] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, Halt and Catch Fire, very good-ish.
[01:04:24.560 --> 01:04:27.200] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it lacked in some areas.
[01:04:27.420 --> 01:04:30.180] [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't feel quite so...
[01:04:30.180 --> 01:04:31.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't care for it that much.
[01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:33.500] [SPEAKER_00]: I just didn't like anybody in it.
[01:04:33.580 --> 01:04:37.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that shouldn't be a requirement for a program that you like people in it.
[01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:42.280] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, one of our favorite shows, Happy-ish, got canceled because people didn't like the characters.
[01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:46.220] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was supposed to be annoying characters dealing with annoying things.
[01:04:46.420 --> 01:04:47.980] [SPEAKER_00]: But lots of times people don't get that.
[01:04:48.120 --> 01:04:49.900] [SPEAKER_00]: It was brilliantly written, though.
[01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:50.820] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the important thing.
[01:04:51.240 --> 01:04:53.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Halt and Catch Fire is not brilliantly written.
[01:04:53.460 --> 01:04:53.880] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:55.400] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't excite me.
[01:04:56.020 --> 01:04:56.300] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:04:56.600 --> 01:04:57.700] [SPEAKER_00]: The characters don't excite me.
[01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:06.300] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I liked a little bit of the retro stuff, but the cohesion of the group, the way they interacted, just...
[01:05:06.300 --> 01:05:11.140] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there were some pretty decent individual characters, but it didn't come together that well.
[01:05:11.260 --> 01:05:16.240] [SPEAKER_02]: And the aesthetic was, again, it was very dark, kind of dingy 70.
[01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.180] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really like that.
[01:05:17.180 --> 01:05:21.740] [SPEAKER_00]: For those who don't know, it's about the early days of the microcomputer revolution.
[01:05:21.740 --> 01:05:24.580] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, early, early, generic, I guess.
[01:05:24.580 --> 01:05:28.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Developing a new product, being first at a conference to have this particular item.
[01:05:28.940 --> 01:05:29.520] [SPEAKER_02]: Totally, yeah.
[01:05:29.640 --> 01:05:35.580] [SPEAKER_00]: All the things that don't excite me at all, but you can make things that are unexciting interesting if you do it right.
[01:05:35.800 --> 01:05:37.040] [SPEAKER_02]: They carry it really well.
[01:05:37.040 --> 01:06:07.840] [SPEAKER_02]: And the story, they push it along, and it shows cool topics and cool equipment and really the dawn of that kind of semiconductor, you know, early, early microchips and all the stuff that really sped up the rate of development and research because people were able to then cheaply use these machines and it just built from there.
[01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:14.820] [SPEAKER_02]: So in that sense, I think it's really important history and it's cool to watch a bit of a drama about it, but I don't know.
[01:06:15.060 --> 01:06:16.180] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm with you a little bit.
[01:06:16.300 --> 01:06:17.240] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the characters...
[01:06:17.240 --> 01:06:22.880] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the one guy reminded me of the American Psycho main character or something.
[01:06:23.120 --> 01:06:28.860] [SPEAKER_02]: He was like supposed to be the like the Steve Jobs type.
[01:06:29.100 --> 01:06:31.640] [SPEAKER_02]: I forget what his name was, but he was too polished.
[01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:32.820] [SPEAKER_02]: I forget everybody's name.
[01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:34.220] [SPEAKER_02]: He was too slick and he was like...
[01:06:34.220 --> 01:06:36.320] [SPEAKER_02]: I was waiting for that to like wear off.
[01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:37.640] [SPEAKER_02]: It was the whole series.
[01:06:37.820 --> 01:06:41.940] [SPEAKER_02]: He was just this like slick sales guy that I just hated.
[01:06:42.620 --> 01:06:46.620] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, but that's the cool thing to be critical and watch it.
[01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:51.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is our occasional critique on hacker programs on television.
[01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:59.140] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd like to hear your feelings oth@2600.com or hey, you could even call us in a few minutes when we tell you how to do that.
[01:06:59.660 --> 01:07:01.160] [SPEAKER_02]: And tell us about other shows.
[01:07:01.160 --> 01:07:20.480] [SPEAKER_02]: If you see other media out there about hackers, about your community, maybe some local programming, maybe you've made a show yourself with your friends, you have stories to tell about hacking, about technology, about maybe some legal stuff, stuff that you've run into in your time.
[01:07:21.040 --> 01:07:21.800] [SPEAKER_02]: Share that.
[01:07:21.980 --> 01:07:23.800] [SPEAKER_02]: That's really, really critical.
[01:07:23.940 --> 01:07:34.500] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so fascinating to get turned on to new programming, new storytelling, new channels and places where people are doing some of that storytelling.
[01:07:34.500 --> 01:07:37.960] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we will in turn share it with the rest of...
[01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:42.460] [SPEAKER_02]: with our audience and other people that would benefit from checking it out too.
[01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:56.980] [SPEAKER_02]: And that helps the discussion about what hackers are, helps us define our ideology and tell our story in as accurate a way as possible instead of other people telling our stories badly.
[01:07:58.060 --> 01:07:58.860] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[01:07:59.020 --> 01:08:03.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, the phone number to donate 212-209-2950.
[01:08:03.580 --> 01:08:11.480] [SPEAKER_00]: We have the Hacker Calendar, 2016 Hacker Calendar filled with hacker dates and payphone photos.
[01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:12.700] [SPEAKER_00]: That's for a pledge of $50.
[01:08:13.080 --> 01:08:15.780] [SPEAKER_00]: It's also autographed by all of us here at Off The Hook.
[01:08:15.980 --> 01:08:23.820] [SPEAKER_00]: For a pledge of $100, you'll get a copy of Mobilize, the DVD documentary about the dangers of cell phone radiation.
[01:08:24.500 --> 01:08:25.800] [SPEAKER_00]: You can believe it.
[01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:26.820] [SPEAKER_00]: You cannot believe it.
[01:08:26.860 --> 01:08:30.300] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's important to open yourself up to the conversation.
[01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:32.580] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the best way I can describe it.
[01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:33.680] [SPEAKER_00]: That's for a pledge of $100.
[01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:37.920] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[01:08:38.300 --> 01:08:39.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's read another letter.
[01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:46.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Then, hopefully, we'll get some phone calls and then we can figure out how to take phone calls on the air.
[01:08:46.820 --> 01:08:56.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Here is a listener that wrote to us telling us that he disagrees with promoting hacktivism in the manner that you do.
[01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:58.120] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what happens.
[01:08:58.180 --> 01:09:04.600] [SPEAKER_00]: He said, when hackers take liberties with morality and points us to the recent hack involving a planned parent.
[01:09:04.700 --> 01:09:05.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you guys familiar with this?
[01:09:06.480 --> 01:09:08.320] [SPEAKER_00]: This is basically...
[01:09:08.320 --> 01:09:12.100] [SPEAKER_02]: They had a bunch of conversations leaked that had been videotaped.
[01:09:12.240 --> 01:09:14.880] [SPEAKER_02]: They were like a dinner or a lunch with somebody who was...
[01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:16.140] [SPEAKER_00]: That's something else.
[01:09:16.300 --> 01:09:20.560] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a videotape that got heavily edited Oh, this is the takedown and released.
[01:09:20.860 --> 01:09:24.220] [SPEAKER_00]: But their website was hacked.
[01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:27.560] [SPEAKER_00]: It was, I believe, last Sunday night.
[01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:38.180] [SPEAKER_00]: A group of hackers who apparently opposed the healthcare non-profits abortion practices released Planned Parenthood's website databases as well as names and email addresses of the organization's employees.
[01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:39.660] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'll get to that story in a second.
[01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:40.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me finish this letter.
[01:09:41.440 --> 01:09:44.640] [SPEAKER_00]: You have been radicalizing people I know who are now currently in prison.
[01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:45.820] [SPEAKER_00]: That's signed, Angela.
[01:09:45.940 --> 01:09:47.200] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the letter I alluded to earlier.
[01:09:47.380 --> 01:09:49.140] [SPEAKER_00]: We were accused of radicalizing people.
[01:09:49.400 --> 01:09:49.540] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:09:49.820 --> 01:09:54.880] [SPEAKER_00]: So now, you know, this is a hard subject to respond to.
[01:09:55.060 --> 01:10:06.420] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if he's accusing us of radicalizing the kind of people that hacked Planned Parenthood or if we're radicalizing the kind of people that hack Stratfor or all kinds of other organizations out there.
[01:10:06.440 --> 01:10:12.560] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think we've always said on these airwaves that there are good hacks and there are simplistic hacks.
[01:10:12.660 --> 01:10:16.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, just denial of service attacks are not the best hacks in the world.
[01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:21.560] [SPEAKER_00]: That basically just shuts up your opponent or somebody that you want to wipe off the net.
[01:10:21.780 --> 01:10:25.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Releasing people's private information never really a nice thing to do.
[01:10:25.960 --> 01:10:40.980] [SPEAKER_00]: But going into a site and uncovering scandals and basically showing public policy, governments, corporations, things like that, things that affect all of us, that's almost a responsibility.
[01:10:41.320 --> 01:10:45.500] [SPEAKER_00]: If you can figure out a way to get that information, you should get that information.
[01:10:45.740 --> 01:10:47.080] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's radicalizing.
[01:10:47.180 --> 01:10:49.980] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that that might step outside some people's boundaries.
[01:10:51.180 --> 01:11:00.160] [SPEAKER_00]: But we've always pretty much said to people that just shutting something down is not really a legitimate hack.
[01:11:00.300 --> 01:11:04.660] [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, that kind of thing will be used against you when somebody disagrees with something you say.
[01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:06.360] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't get us anywhere.
[01:11:06.740 --> 01:11:10.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And at least that's my viewpoint as far as how that goes.
[01:11:11.080 --> 01:11:17.500] [SPEAKER_02]: I think my attitude and just in reading that and hearing that, I mean, I think we...
[01:11:18.380 --> 01:11:29.500] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say, yeah, I mean, we would accept that characterization as radicalizing people to be radical, right?
[01:11:29.660 --> 01:11:40.480] [SPEAKER_02]: To speak their minds, to think critically, to stand up when there is wrong going on around them and no one else is doing anything about it.
[01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:43.800] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're okay owning the word radicalizing as long as it means something?
[01:11:43.980 --> 01:11:45.100] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we should own that.
[01:11:45.260 --> 01:11:51.140] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think running away and saying like, you know, trying to defend ourselves, I think definitely we do.
[01:11:51.220 --> 01:11:53.620] [SPEAKER_02]: We should accept that on a certain level.
[01:11:53.860 --> 01:12:02.100] [SPEAKER_02]: What I don't think we should bear the responsibility for is people messing up or doing things badly themselves.
[01:12:02.100 --> 01:12:07.520] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're not telling people specifically what to do in any particular context.
[01:12:07.740 --> 01:12:17.660] [SPEAKER_02]: If they make up some plan themselves and do something, I think that's on them because that's correlation without causation.
[01:12:17.820 --> 01:12:17.980] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:18.600] [SPEAKER_02]: We haven't...
[01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:28.360] [SPEAKER_02]: You're trying to tie us into some individual friend that maybe decided, oh yeah, I love hacking now and now I'm going to do this.
[01:12:28.660 --> 01:12:37.560] [SPEAKER_02]: Your interpretation of that as hacking, I think, really drags us into stuff we have absolutely no control over.
[01:12:37.700 --> 01:12:46.660] [SPEAKER_02]: If people are inspired, that's great, but if they are inspired and then do something that is hurtful or wrong, we ourselves wouldn't really participate in.
[01:12:46.700 --> 01:12:47.840] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's unfair.
[01:12:48.160 --> 01:12:50.480] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, this is kind of all speculation because...
[01:12:50.480 --> 01:12:51.120] [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me.
[01:12:51.920 --> 01:13:00.200] [SPEAKER_01]: Not knowing more about the cases Angelo was talking about with these people he knows who are now in jail, we don't know what they did or why they did it or how they did it.
[01:13:00.200 --> 01:13:04.180] [SPEAKER_01]: And these are all very important pieces of data when judging whether something is okay.
[01:13:04.440 --> 01:13:07.400] [SPEAKER_01]: But one thing that I can say that we've been...
[01:13:07.400 --> 01:13:17.880] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that has been a central aspect of the things this show has reported on since day one has been unfitting punishments for offenses that might be termed hacking.
[01:13:18.320 --> 01:13:18.600] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[01:13:18.820 --> 01:13:20.880] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I don't know...
[01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:35.740] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't know what these people did, what these individuals are responsible for, but I will say in general, there are still very, very severe punishments being meted out for undeserving what I would maybe say is a minor offense.
[01:13:36.060 --> 01:13:37.560] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, if...
[01:13:37.560 --> 01:13:44.720] [SPEAKER_01]: Angelo, if you want to write back to us with more info on these particular cases you're talking about or these particular people you're talking about, you know, we could address it then.
[01:13:44.940 --> 01:13:55.420] [SPEAKER_01]: But in general, I would say that there's probably a very good chance that these people probably don't deserve to be in jail for whatever it is they did, just, you know, given the prevailing trends.
[01:13:55.420 --> 01:14:19.420] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they would be specifically writing us to tell us that specifically, I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find another example of a show or institution at least for comparison but to this end that has been as proactive about informing hackers about the right way to handle things and,
[01:14:19.420 --> 01:14:21.660] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, examples of people messing up.
[01:14:21.820 --> 01:14:23.720] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we've done that time and time again.
[01:14:23.720 --> 01:14:42.120] [SPEAKER_02]: there's plenty of people in the magazine that write in about their situations who have found themselves imprisoned or whatever but we definitely try to tell as many of these stories as possible to get it out there that, you know, these are the kinds of consequences and that really is the crux of this.
[01:14:42.280 --> 01:14:59.020] [SPEAKER_02]: You must consider consequences just like they tell you in grade school, you know, consider the consequences of your actions and I think we've been as vigilant about telling the stories of what people get into when they're the effect of these fancy new laws here.
[01:14:59.200 --> 01:15:16.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And the thing to remember too is that when something or a website, a corporation gets invaded or hacked or has private information released, I don't think we can fairly say this is good, this is bad.
[01:15:17.180 --> 01:15:22.580] [SPEAKER_00]: it's always incumbent on the people who are holding on to the data to keep it safe.
[01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:24.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the case of Planned Parenthood, they did not do that.
[01:15:24.940 --> 01:15:40.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know I've been watching the stories on this and I think it's a little two-faced in some ways because the stories are calling the people who hacked the site extremists and radicals too.
[01:15:40.180 --> 01:15:43.340] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard right-wing radicals and things like that and that might be the case.
[01:15:43.500 --> 01:15:49.940] [SPEAKER_00]: They may have certain unpalatable views in your eyes and in our eyes perhaps.
[01:15:50.560 --> 01:15:55.780] [SPEAKER_00]: But the fact is the same as when a big evil corporation gets hacked.
[01:15:56.080 --> 01:15:58.140] [SPEAKER_00]: That information should not have just been lying out there.
[01:15:58.220 --> 01:15:59.040] [SPEAKER_00]: There was no security.
[01:15:59.240 --> 01:16:09.380] [SPEAKER_00]: And if there is a particular method to be used against one entity, that method is going to be used against a different entity regardless of what side of a particular issue they're on.
[01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:16.760] [SPEAKER_00]: So some responsibility has to be carried here and we have to realize that nobody is immune from this kind of thing.
[01:16:16.940 --> 01:16:25.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And the only way to protect yourself is to learn a thing or two about security, learn what to keep on your servers, what not to keep on your servers, and expect the unexpected.
[01:16:26.240 --> 01:16:30.720] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this particular case, it doesn't look like they were expecting this to happen.
[01:16:31.280 --> 01:16:43.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of times there are either people with a political motive, which makes it an interesting conversation either way, or there are people just looking to have fun, mess things up.
[01:16:43.740 --> 01:16:47.140] [SPEAKER_00]: The case of New York magazine, their website was hacked last week.
[01:16:47.420 --> 01:16:51.660] [SPEAKER_00]: They had problems for hours, right after they put out a story about Bill Cosby.
[01:16:52.120 --> 01:16:57.900] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, it had nothing to do with Bill Cosby, it had to do with some bored kid someplace known as Threat King.
[01:16:58.300 --> 01:17:01.280] [SPEAKER_00]: He disclosed the incident through a Twitter account.
[01:17:02.020 --> 01:17:06.340] [SPEAKER_00]: He told the Daily Dot that he hates New York City because of a recent visit.
[01:17:06.480 --> 01:17:10.780] [SPEAKER_00]: That is why he hacked New York magazine, because he hates New York City because of a recent visit.
[01:17:10.940 --> 01:17:12.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Here is what Threat King had to say.
[01:17:12.640 --> 01:17:14.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Many stupid people at New York.
[01:17:14.820 --> 01:17:17.000] [SPEAKER_00]: I have not even seen the cover LOL.
[01:17:19.480 --> 01:17:19.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:17:21.060 --> 01:17:34.700] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you go to that person's SoundCloud page, you will hear a recording saying, we are going to destroy state websites, city websites, agency websites, and court websites of the United States.
[01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:38.640] [SPEAKER_00]: You have took away our country and it is time to get it back by destroying the United States.
[01:17:39.200 --> 01:17:45.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the story that I'm reading goes on about Bill Cosby because it has absolutely nothing to do with Bill Cosby or New York Magazine.
[01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:50.860] [SPEAKER_00]: It has to do with some bored kid someplace latching on to something and spouting a bit of rhetoric.
[01:17:51.360 --> 01:17:54.080] [SPEAKER_00]: We should not be taking these stories this seriously.
[01:17:54.620 --> 01:17:58.240] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately every single day in the news we do.
[01:17:59.360 --> 01:18:08.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Websites are always open to being compromised one way or another and won't always be compromised by people who know what they're talking about or who even know what you're talking about.
[01:18:08.160 --> 01:18:09.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a case right here.
[01:18:09.660 --> 01:18:14.080] [SPEAKER_00]: The website for the Otoa County Sheriff's Office was hacked on Saturday.
[01:18:14.420 --> 01:18:17.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Do any of you know where Otoa County is?
[01:18:17.260 --> 01:18:17.900] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't a clue.
[01:18:18.200 --> 01:18:19.900] [SPEAKER_00]: Now you will because of this story.
[01:18:20.080 --> 01:18:21.580] [SPEAKER_00]: So some education is possible.
[01:18:21.700 --> 01:18:22.500] [SPEAKER_00]: It's in Alabama.
[01:18:23.040 --> 01:18:23.680] [SPEAKER_00]: Alabama.
[01:18:24.080 --> 01:18:24.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[01:18:24.760 --> 01:18:40.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And according to WBRC and the Gadsden Times a hacker posted the following hacked by Muhammad Ahmad long live to Pesh Marga posted that right on the sheriff's website.
[01:18:41.040 --> 01:18:49.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Also included Kurdish hackers was here, a picture of the Kurdish flag and a profane message to guys want to guess?
[01:18:50.180 --> 01:18:50.580] [SPEAKER_01]: Obama.
[01:18:50.880 --> 01:18:51.480] [SPEAKER_01]: New York magazine?
[01:18:51.880 --> 01:18:52.240] [SPEAKER_01]: ISIS.
[01:18:52.820 --> 01:18:52.940] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[01:18:52.940 --> 01:18:55.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because the Kurds don't like ISIS, do they?
[01:18:56.360 --> 01:19:09.260] [SPEAKER_00]: So the poor sheriff's department down there in Etowah County, Alabama, somehow is in the middle of this fight between ISIS and Kurds because somebody decided they were going to post that message on an insecure website.
[01:19:09.740 --> 01:19:11.700] [SPEAKER_00]: This is what happens when you have an insecure website.
[01:19:11.900 --> 01:19:17.260] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been since taken down, but according to the sheriff, it's going to come back up in a couple of days, bigger and stronger than ever.
[01:19:18.100 --> 01:19:18.900] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[01:19:19.080 --> 01:19:34.920] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, speaking of hacks and political awareness and various things like that brings us to the case of, well, one of the many cases of Anonymous.
[01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:37.780] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is actually very sad news.
[01:19:38.640 --> 01:19:52.940] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the leading people in Anonymous, you don't really know them by name, but if you pay attention to various stories that come out, names do float down occasionally.
[01:19:53.600 --> 01:20:03.880] [SPEAKER_00]: This guy's name was Owen, and he was one of the people that really was able to explain things in a way that many people would not take the time.
[01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:18.520] [SPEAKER_00]: He was one of the anti-copyright hacktivists who was recently sentenced in Virginia, recently, within the last couple of years, and he was part of the whole PayPal thing that happened a number of years ago, where they were hacked.
[01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:29.560] [SPEAKER_00]: He faced a potential five-year prison sentence up to $500,000 in fines and restitution found guilty of conspiracy to attack a protected computer.
[01:20:29.820 --> 01:20:36.180] [SPEAKER_00]: However, he had a terminal illness and he fortunately was not sentenced to anything quite that severe.
[01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:45.180] [SPEAKER_00]: His real name, Dennis Collins, Toledo, Ohio, passed away a couple of weeks ago, and I just felt we should mention that because there are hackers who do get it.
[01:20:45.300 --> 01:20:52.260] [SPEAKER_00]: There are hackers who know what they're talking about and who know what their targets are all about, and those are people to be admired, I think.
[01:20:52.420 --> 01:20:53.580] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's controversial.
[01:20:53.980 --> 01:20:57.900] [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't agree with what they happen to be saying at the moment, you won't see it that way.
[01:20:58.180 --> 01:21:02.480] [SPEAKER_00]: But I believe the same is true even for people that say things I vehemently disagree agree with.
[01:21:02.560 --> 01:21:12.860] [SPEAKER_00]: If you do it in a proper way, a way that has conviction and has merit behind it, no matter where that's coming from, then that's something worthy of recognition.
[01:21:13.220 --> 01:21:15.980] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a central tenet of freedom of speech.
[01:21:16.120 --> 01:21:22.160] [SPEAKER_01]: If you truly believe in it, you would also believe in it for speech you don't agree with or speech that you think is maybe not worth saying.
[01:21:23.220 --> 01:21:24.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, yes.
[01:21:24.860 --> 01:21:26.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are morons.
[01:21:26.400 --> 01:21:29.240] [SPEAKER_00]: There are all kinds of complete and total morons out there.
[01:21:29.240 --> 01:21:32.420] [SPEAKER_00]: you heard about Hitchbot, right?
[01:21:32.980 --> 01:21:34.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, really sad news.
[01:21:35.360 --> 01:21:44.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Hitchbot was a hitchhiking robot who was built in Canada and was able to hitchhike his way all across Canada and across much of Western Europe.
[01:21:45.020 --> 01:21:48.300] [SPEAKER_00]: He went across all of Germany and I believe the Netherlands as well.
[01:21:48.660 --> 01:21:49.380] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Canada.
[01:21:50.660 --> 01:22:04.500] [SPEAKER_00]: And basically the way it worked was he'd be on the side of a road and someone correct me if I'm wrong, total strangers would pass by and simply pick him up and be able to converse with him.
[01:22:04.560 --> 01:22:21.820] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he would say where he wanted to go or read off something from a bucket list of things he wanted to do such as go to a particular ball game or wind up in a particular tourist attraction and pictures would be taken and he'd tweet from there and then go on to the next random person who would pick him up.
[01:22:21.900 --> 01:22:22.900] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was random.
[01:22:22.980 --> 01:22:31.460] [SPEAKER_00]: It almost sounds too good to be true the way things worked out as far as the places he went and the people he saw and the images he captured.
[01:22:31.640 --> 01:22:38.200] [SPEAKER_01]: Also because I think this was all being published online in real time where he was where he wanted to go.
[01:22:38.420 --> 01:22:45.500] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you were following the story of Hitchbot and he turned up in your area you could go then look for him and hope to be the one to pick him up to take him to his next destination.
[01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:53.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Well after Canada and after Europe he was programmed to go across the United States and as you may have heard that did not go well.
[01:22:53.660 --> 01:22:55.800] [SPEAKER_00]: He made it as far as Philadelphia Bernie
[01:22:58.980 --> 01:23:15.420] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's where he met a violent end someone tore him to pieces and I don't know if they sent the picture or if somebody who happened to see him sent the picture but you just see him beheaded and just lying on the street somebody apparently thought that was the right thing to do.
[01:23:16.080 --> 01:23:29.660] [SPEAKER_00]: Then there was a surveillance video that came out that showed somebody basically swinging one of his legs around or doing something that kind of implicated them.
[01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:53.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Now keep in mind the people who build Hitchbot have no interest in prosecuting the person behind this or people behind this but it was very interesting to see that hey there's video footage of somebody vandalizing Hitchbot and and wouldn't it be nice to figure out what exactly happened there was an update to that story that surveillance video has been pointed out as a fake yes that's that was my
[01:23:53.580 --> 01:24:02.740] [SPEAKER_00]: next sentence Rob thank you video bloggers have faked surveillance video showing the destruction of Hitchbot, the hitchhiking robot.
[01:24:04.220 --> 01:24:16.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, these two guys, known as Jesse Wellens and Ed Basemaster, were the last people to see Hitchbot in one piece when they took the robot on a ride in their truck on Friday night slash Saturday morning.
[01:24:16.260 --> 01:24:18.680] [SPEAKER_00]: These guys are minor YouTube celebrities.
[01:24:19.360 --> 01:24:20.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything worse?
[01:24:21.400 --> 01:24:27.880] [SPEAKER_00]: They're minor YouTube celebrities who filmed their interactions with Hitchbot for the V-log.
[01:24:27.920 --> 01:24:29.620] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even going to give the name of their vlog.
[01:24:30.280 --> 01:24:32.020] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the last I'm ever going to say that word, too.
[01:24:33.800 --> 01:24:39.960] [SPEAKER_00]: On Saturday night, Wellens tweeted that he was going to try to obtain any security footage from the area where Hitchbot was allegedly destroyed.
[01:24:40.400 --> 01:24:48.360] [SPEAKER_00]: By Sunday night, he claimed to have gotten the surveillance footage, which basically he put up on one of his YouTube channels.
[01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:50.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Turns out it's fake.
[01:24:50.380 --> 01:24:57.760] [SPEAKER_00]: It shows a man believed to be Ed Basemaster or Basemaster, I don't know how you pronounce that name, kicking what we're led to believe is Hitchbot sitting on a bench.
[01:24:58.400 --> 01:25:06.260] [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is we can't see Hitchbot because he's obstructed by a trash can, though we can see Basemaster rip off what appears to be Hitchbot's arms.
[01:25:08.020 --> 01:25:20.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, basically, they thought it would be funny to make a fake video of Hitchbot being attacked and destroyed.
[01:25:20.840 --> 01:25:26.360] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the limits of stupidity, I think, are being expanded every single day.
[01:25:26.360 --> 01:25:34.480] [SPEAKER_00]: We might as well give these guys the title of the people that destroyed him because it's just so ridiculously stupid to fake something like this.
[01:25:34.660 --> 01:25:34.760] [SPEAKER_00]: What?
[01:25:34.860 --> 01:25:37.120] [SPEAKER_00]: So you get more hits on your stupid YouTube page?
[01:25:37.440 --> 01:25:38.740] [SPEAKER_00]: It's absurd.
[01:25:38.860 --> 01:25:41.540] [SPEAKER_00]: You are probably as stupid as the person that destroyed this.
[01:25:41.580 --> 01:25:45.980] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're not already the same person that destroyed it, you were the last people that saw Hitchbot alive, after all.
[01:25:45.980 --> 01:25:52.380] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the whole thing just really disgusts me, that people are that dumb and ridiculous and that they get all this attention.
[01:25:52.860 --> 01:26:01.220] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm only giving them the attention just so I can make the point that there are smart hackers out there and there are stupid people out there that would love to be called hackers that don't deserve it.
[01:26:01.220 --> 01:26:08.780] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you're a certain grade of YouTube celebrity, I think the name of the game is do whatever you can to get a bunch of hits to your stupid YouTube page.
[01:26:09.140 --> 01:26:13.860] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that includes trolling people who care about a robot that's been destroyed.
[01:26:14.780 --> 01:26:16.580] [SPEAKER_01]: So is this guy's name Bassmaster?
[01:26:16.740 --> 01:26:17.620] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what his name is.
[01:26:17.620 --> 01:26:18.380] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a fishing show.
[01:26:18.860 --> 01:26:20.620] [SPEAKER_00]: You see, the whole thing is probably a joke.
[01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:22.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Everything is just a big joke to them.
[01:26:22.620 --> 01:26:24.620] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, okay, whatever, guys.
[01:26:24.740 --> 01:26:25.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Have fun.
[01:26:25.660 --> 01:26:28.520] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I hope the guys in Canada build another robot.
[01:26:28.660 --> 01:26:29.420] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope it does better.
[01:26:29.820 --> 01:26:34.720] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just so embarrassing when your own country is the one that keeps destroying good things.
[01:26:35.440 --> 01:26:37.160] [SPEAKER_00]: No problems at all getting across Canada.
[01:26:37.160 --> 01:26:39.740] [SPEAKER_00]: No problems getting across Germany and getting across the Netherlands.
[01:26:40.600 --> 01:26:46.780] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, Bernie, we're going to need an apology from you being the closest we have to a direct link with Philadelphia right now.
[01:26:47.860 --> 01:26:59.580] [SPEAKER_07]: I am sorry and embarrassed that my home city, Philadelphia, was the site of the Hitchbots beheading and raping.
[01:27:00.360 --> 01:27:01.580] [SPEAKER_07]: But I'm a good alibi.
[01:27:01.720 --> 01:27:04.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I was 500 miles north of Philadelphia when it happened.
[01:27:04.940 --> 01:27:07.600] [SPEAKER_07]: Still, it's a sad thing.
[01:27:07.680 --> 01:27:10.020] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not surprised, frankly, that this happened in Philadelphia.
[01:27:10.020 --> 01:27:15.940] [SPEAKER_07]: But I think it says a lot more about our country than other countries.
[01:27:16.500 --> 01:27:21.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, this thing made it across Canada, across Germany, and elsewhere in Europe.
[01:27:22.080 --> 01:27:24.540] [SPEAKER_07]: And in Philadelphia, it meets an early demise.
[01:27:24.780 --> 01:27:26.460] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd still like to know how exactly it worked.
[01:27:26.620 --> 01:27:32.720] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, how they were able to just leave it on the side of the road and how it interacted with the people in the car.
[01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:35.560] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't read enough about that and how...
[01:27:35.560 --> 01:27:37.320] [SPEAKER_07]: It was not a mobile robot.
[01:27:37.320 --> 01:27:40.540] [SPEAKER_07]: It didn't have the ability to ambulate on its own.
[01:27:40.680 --> 01:27:41.400] [SPEAKER_00]: It had to be carried on.
[01:27:41.540 --> 01:27:47.120] [SPEAKER_07]: It was kind of like a rag doll with a speech interface that you could talk to it.
[01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:48.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:27:48.440 --> 01:27:50.280] [SPEAKER_00]: And people just would do whatever...
[01:27:50.280 --> 01:27:55.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Would it tell people, I want to go here now, or would it just say things repeatedly?
[01:27:56.440 --> 01:27:56.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:27:56.940 --> 01:27:57.420] [SPEAKER_07]: It would tell...
[01:27:58.000 --> 01:28:01.360] [SPEAKER_07]: It would notice people picking him up or looking at him or something.
[01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:04.300] [SPEAKER_07]: And he would say where he wants to go.
[01:28:04.300 --> 01:28:11.620] [SPEAKER_07]: He would introduce himself, tell people where he wants to go, and then pictures would be documented and sent online.
[01:28:11.840 --> 01:28:20.760] [SPEAKER_07]: And the hopeful thing is that the people who would pick up the hitchhiker would take the Hitchbot to where it was going, or at least somewhere else.
[01:28:20.760 --> 01:28:22.100] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what would have stopped me...
[01:28:22.100 --> 01:28:22.600] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a neat idea.
[01:28:22.860 --> 01:28:29.760] [SPEAKER_00]: What would have stopped me from picking up Hitchbot and just driving all the way to California and just keeping Hitchbot and hogging him for myself?
[01:28:30.480 --> 01:28:30.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Nothing.
[01:28:31.660 --> 01:28:32.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing at all.
[01:28:32.660 --> 01:28:33.840] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm surprised that didn't happen.
[01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:36.480] [SPEAKER_02]: You could put Hitchbot in the trunk.
[01:28:36.900 --> 01:28:37.580] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you could...
[01:28:37.580 --> 01:28:41.160] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm surprised nobody did that, or just FedEx Hitchbot somewhere.
[01:28:41.380 --> 01:28:41.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:41.840] [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[01:28:42.140 --> 01:28:43.420] [SPEAKER_00]: All kinds of things that...
[01:28:43.420 --> 01:28:45.460] [SPEAKER_02]: You could, and you have DHL take him or somebody.
[01:28:45.640 --> 01:28:46.060] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[01:28:46.680 --> 01:28:49.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, our phone number for pledge is 212-209-2950.
[01:28:50.360 --> 01:28:52.680] [SPEAKER_00]: Rob, would you like to go over the pledge levels again?
[01:28:52.680 --> 01:29:04.800] [SPEAKER_01]: For a pledge level of $50, you can get the 2016 Hacker Calendar with beautiful pictures of payphones and all sorts of wonderful happenings on most days of the year.
[01:29:05.780 --> 01:29:08.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Landmarks in Hacker History, that's for a pledge of $50.
[01:29:08.760 --> 01:29:18.960] [SPEAKER_01]: And for a pledge of, what is it, $100, you can get the movie about cell phone radiation, which is somewhere in here.
[01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:20.720] [SPEAKER_01]: It's buried in all this stuff.
[01:29:20.720 --> 01:29:22.620] [SPEAKER_00]: It's buried in all these papers, I'm afraid.
[01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:30.500] [SPEAKER_01]: But you can get the movie about cell phone radiation, or you could just give us a donation and get all sorts of...
[01:29:30.500 --> 01:29:31.040] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, here we are.
[01:29:32.360 --> 01:29:33.620] [SPEAKER_01]: Mobilize is the name of the DVD.
[01:29:34.240 --> 01:29:36.060] [SPEAKER_01]: Mobilize, Dangers of Cell Phone Radiation.
[01:29:36.240 --> 01:29:41.940] [SPEAKER_01]: If that's something you're interested in watching, you can contribute $100 to the future of this show and this station.
[01:29:42.240 --> 01:29:45.040] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can do that on give2wbai.org.
[01:29:45.040 --> 01:29:48.340] [SPEAKER_01]: You can do that by phone at 212-209-2950.
[01:29:48.900 --> 01:29:56.840] [SPEAKER_01]: Or you could just go for other sort of WBAI gifts that they have on the website or on the phone.
[01:29:56.840 --> 01:30:02.620] [SPEAKER_01]: You can ask the person and make sure you specify that you're donating in the name of Off The Hook, which is your favorite show, I'm hoping.
[01:30:03.260 --> 01:30:06.480] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a date from the Hacker Calendar here, June 3rd.
[01:30:06.580 --> 01:30:09.080] [SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted to read a couple of exciting things that happened.
[01:30:09.080 --> 01:30:10.180] [SPEAKER_00]: What happened on June 3rd?
[01:30:10.300 --> 01:30:13.680] [SPEAKER_02]: June 3rd, the 414s hacked Sloan Kettering in 1983.
[01:30:13.740 --> 01:30:14.880] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember that.
[01:30:15.040 --> 01:30:15.740] [SPEAKER_02]: What was that all about?
[01:30:15.940 --> 01:30:20.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they were a bunch of Milwaukee hackers, 414 being their area code.
[01:30:20.200 --> 01:30:23.840] [SPEAKER_00]: And right away, you know Wisconsin's had more than one area code because it's one in the middle right there.
[01:30:23.900 --> 01:30:24.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we talked about that.
[01:30:24.440 --> 01:30:24.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:30:24.780 --> 01:30:25.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:30:25.100 --> 01:30:29.360] [SPEAKER_00]: So they hacked into Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and got all kinds of headlines.
[01:30:29.720 --> 01:30:30.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
[01:30:30.420 --> 01:30:33.240] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was this one guy, I think his name was Neil Harris.
[01:30:33.440 --> 01:30:34.620] [SPEAKER_00]: He was the leader of it.
[01:30:34.700 --> 01:30:36.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was before Neil Patrick Harris was a thing.
[01:30:37.140 --> 01:30:39.200] [SPEAKER_00]: And he wound up testifying before Congress.
[01:30:39.320 --> 01:30:40.200] [SPEAKER_00]: It was in all the headlines.
[01:30:40.200 --> 01:30:41.980] [SPEAKER_00]: And we were...
[01:30:41.980 --> 01:30:46.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Our particular hacker group back then got raided shortly after these guys.
[01:30:46.980 --> 01:30:47.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[01:30:47.220 --> 01:30:48.500] [SPEAKER_00]: But fortunately, they took most of the heat.
[01:30:49.000 --> 01:30:49.240] [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.
[01:30:49.600 --> 01:30:50.020] Nice.
[01:30:50.200 --> 01:30:51.120] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always good.
[01:30:51.200 --> 01:30:53.800] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was the year before the 2600 came out.
[01:30:53.880 --> 01:30:57.040] [SPEAKER_00]: So hackers, again, were in the news and being demonized for all sorts of things.
[01:30:57.140 --> 01:30:59.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think they caused any harm on that particular computer.
[01:30:59.880 --> 01:31:02.540] [SPEAKER_00]: But they showed how wide open it was.
[01:31:02.700 --> 01:31:04.060] [SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing how things don't change.
[01:31:04.160 --> 01:31:05.980] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially in a place like that, like Cancer Center.
[01:31:06.080 --> 01:31:06.480] [SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting.
[01:31:06.600 --> 01:31:07.700] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what Sloan Kettering was.
[01:31:07.820 --> 01:31:09.580] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, WarGames was released then.
[01:31:10.380 --> 01:31:11.220] [SPEAKER_02]: That's on that date.
[01:31:11.420 --> 01:31:12.460] [SPEAKER_02]: June 3rd, yeah, in 1983.
[01:31:12.980 --> 01:31:13.680] [SPEAKER_00]: On that very date.
[01:31:13.740 --> 01:31:14.520] [SPEAKER_02]: So the same day, yeah.
[01:31:14.680 --> 01:31:18.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think those guys were going out to see WarGames and then got raided?
[01:31:18.940 --> 01:31:21.260] [SPEAKER_02]: They probably had planned to see it that night.
[01:31:21.320 --> 01:31:23.000] [SPEAKER_02]: And if they didn't make it to see it...
[01:31:23.000 --> 01:31:25.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe they did see it and they came home and got raided and said, Oh, what a perfect night.
[01:31:25.960 --> 01:31:26.540] [SPEAKER_00]: What a bummer.
[01:31:26.680 --> 01:31:26.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:31:26.960 --> 01:31:28.140] [SPEAKER_00]: This is incredible.
[01:31:28.140 --> 01:31:36.000] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, Baba Atomic Research Center in Bombay is hacked by Millworm in 1998.
[01:31:36.420 --> 01:31:38.880] [SPEAKER_00]: More recent, but still some history there.
[01:31:39.460 --> 01:31:40.320] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all there.
[01:31:40.440 --> 01:31:41.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Hack a calendar.
[01:31:41.380 --> 01:31:41.940] [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge of $50.
[01:31:42.240 --> 01:31:44.040] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[01:31:44.840 --> 01:31:50.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Or the Mobilize DVD documentary on the dangers of cell phones.
[01:31:50.520 --> 01:31:52.300] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[01:31:52.300 --> 01:31:54.020] [SPEAKER_00]: That letter won a pledge of $100.
[01:31:54.420 --> 01:31:56.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Please, let's have those calls come in.
[01:31:56.040 --> 01:32:04.400] [SPEAKER_00]: And now, as promised, we are going to attempt, and that's all we did promise, is to attempt to do this, take phone calls from our listeners.
[01:32:04.400 --> 01:32:07.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, okay, we don't have a phone that you can call.
[01:32:08.120 --> 01:32:18.020] [SPEAKER_00]: However, we did put together a phone number with the help of a particular service who we're not going to mention unless it works.
[01:32:18.740 --> 01:32:21.200] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know what, if it doesn't work, we'll definitely mention them.
[01:32:22.340 --> 01:32:28.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've given out this number once before, actually, when we, I think it was, was it post-Sandy we used this last.
[01:32:29.060 --> 01:32:32.420] [SPEAKER_00]: And what we're going to do is we're going to forward this to one of our cell phones.
[01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:41.440] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to hold our cell phone up to the microphone and put the speaker on the cell phone, and the person calling in will be able to speak on the air.
[01:32:41.940 --> 01:32:48.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe us in the studio will be able to, I certainly will, because I'm holding the phone right now, we'll be able to respond to the person.
[01:32:50.120 --> 01:32:54.940] [SPEAKER_00]: And Bernie, you probably won't be able to respond to them, because I don't, you know, there might be a way.
[01:32:55.080 --> 01:32:58.700] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's not, let's not, let's not test it too much.
[01:32:58.960 --> 01:33:00.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see if we can get somebody to call in.
[01:33:01.140 --> 01:33:04.020] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and, uh, we might not have any more listeners, any more callers.
[01:33:04.100 --> 01:33:04.780] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been so long.
[01:33:05.020 --> 01:33:05.840] [SPEAKER_02]: No, we've got lots.
[01:33:05.960 --> 01:33:06.540] [SPEAKER_02]: They're all out there.
[01:33:06.640 --> 01:33:07.880] [SPEAKER_00]: How long has it been?
[01:33:08.940 --> 01:33:15.040] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been, uh, at least six, five months, something, something like that.
[01:33:15.120 --> 01:33:16.080] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been here for months.
[01:33:16.420 --> 01:33:17.700] [SPEAKER_00]: It has been, it has been a couple.
[01:33:17.900 --> 01:33:18.620] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been transitioned.
[01:33:18.960 --> 01:33:19.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is.
[01:33:19.440 --> 01:33:20.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Is anybody logging this?
[01:33:20.760 --> 01:33:22.560] [SPEAKER_00]: When did we move to Brooklyn from Harlem?
[01:33:22.840 --> 01:33:28.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody must, well, you know, if, if you go to the off the hook site, uh, there's encapsulations of all the shelves.
[01:33:28.600 --> 01:33:32.700] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure on there is the exact date we moved, but I'm not going to do that right now.
[01:33:32.820 --> 01:33:33.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause I'm busy with this.
[01:33:34.100 --> 01:33:34.920] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a whirlwind.
[01:33:35.060 --> 01:33:35.400] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a while.
[01:33:35.580 --> 01:33:36.600] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a whirlwind.
[01:33:36.660 --> 01:33:37.380] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a while.
[01:33:37.560 --> 01:33:39.000] [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, things are improving here.
[01:33:39.060 --> 01:33:39.940] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want to mention that earlier.
[01:33:39.940 --> 01:33:44.460] [SPEAKER_02]: We were talking about, uh, donating and, uh, you still can 212, 2, 0, 9, 2, 9, 5, 0.
[01:33:44.620 --> 01:33:48.380] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you, you mentioned that things are, this is different, isn't it?
[01:33:48.460 --> 01:33:52.900] [SPEAKER_02]: Or it's at least a better position up here has been worked on a lot.
[01:33:52.920 --> 01:34:00.620] [SPEAKER_02]: What happened is I think they got a bunch of desk chairs and some, uh, some nice desks in here, which really helps guests and producers spread out.
[01:34:01.120 --> 01:34:01.960] [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, bravo.
[01:34:02.160 --> 01:34:03.220] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you everyone at the station.
[01:34:03.580 --> 01:34:06.840] [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, I'm sure there's, yeah, there's, there's a turntable.
[01:34:06.960 --> 01:34:12.080] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a, everything, uh, most everything that we would need, at least for temporary configurations here.
[01:34:12.200 --> 01:34:12.860] [SPEAKER_02]: And it looks great.
[01:34:12.860 --> 01:34:20.780] [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, we're really thankful for that and excited about more improvements in the future as, uh, WBAI grows into our new space here.
[01:34:21.100 --> 01:34:21.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:34:21.640 --> 01:34:27.040] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to continue growing and they won't be able to stop us and we'll have more and more, uh, week after week.
[01:34:27.120 --> 01:34:36.820] [SPEAKER_00]: But we figured it was the least we could do for our listeners to, uh, open up phone lines again or try to open up phone lines because, uh, here's such a vital part of what, uh, what we do.
[01:34:36.820 --> 01:34:38.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to hear those voices.
[01:34:38.560 --> 01:34:40.960] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to, uh, know you're still out there.
[01:34:40.960 --> 01:34:45.320] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we know you're still out there because we hear from you, but we want to hear live from those people.
[01:34:45.500 --> 01:34:50.220] [SPEAKER_02]: And if there's stuff you've heard that we didn't cover, we would love to, uh, catch up to you.
[01:34:50.520 --> 01:34:55.320] [SPEAKER_02]: You may, uh, you may have your ears, um, tuned to stuff that we just didn't catch.
[01:34:55.460 --> 01:34:56.640] [SPEAKER_02]: And it really is amazing.
[01:34:56.800 --> 01:35:03.040] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people can, um, can put us onto stuff that we hadn't even, um, knew was going on, known was going on.
[01:35:03.100 --> 01:35:03.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay.
[01:35:03.540 --> 01:35:10.040] [SPEAKER_00]: We are a bunch of hackers and we experiment with things and we experiment on the air and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
[01:35:10.040 --> 01:35:10.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Are we going to do this?
[01:35:10.980 --> 01:35:13.860] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to try and make it work and see what happens and maybe it'll work.
[01:35:13.940 --> 01:35:14.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it won't.
[01:35:14.900 --> 01:35:21.240] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be unafraid of failure because failure is going to be a part of anything you try.
[01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:23.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but let's see.
[01:35:23.440 --> 01:35:25.760] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, only one person at a time, obviously.
[01:35:26.080 --> 01:35:29.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, what I'm going to do is I'm going to enable this.
[01:35:29.420 --> 01:35:37.080] [SPEAKER_00]: And then as soon as we get a call, I'm going to disable it so that if you call after, uh, we were connected to somebody, I think you'll just get a recording and you know what?
[01:35:37.080 --> 01:35:41.160] [SPEAKER_00]: You can leave a voicemail and maybe we can play the voicemail on a future week if it's clean.
[01:35:41.660 --> 01:35:47.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then when we're finished with the first person, we'll enable it again, give out the phone number and hopefully that'll work.
[01:35:47.600 --> 01:35:52.500] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll just point out that if you're listening to this on an MP3 in the future, we're only enabling this for this live broadcast.
[01:35:52.500 --> 01:35:54.360] [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, don't use it to call in later.
[01:35:54.680 --> 01:35:56.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, how could they possibly do?
[01:35:56.360 --> 01:35:56.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:35:56.680 --> 01:35:58.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's always going to be recorded.
[01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:00.200] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, be synced everyone.
[01:36:00.700 --> 01:36:02.940] [SPEAKER_02]: And then give everybody an opportunity to get on the air.
[01:36:03.040 --> 01:36:03.540] [SPEAKER_00]: So here we go.
[01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:05.180] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the phone number, get ready folks.
[01:36:05.820 --> 01:36:09.920] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, one person's going to get through area code three, three, one.
[01:36:10.140 --> 01:36:11.060] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where that is.
[01:36:11.260 --> 01:36:14.960] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where three, three, one is area code three, three, one, two, two, three.
[01:36:14.960 --> 01:36:20.220] [SPEAKER_00]: W-B-A-I that's three, three, one, two, two, three, nine, two, two, four.
[01:36:20.840 --> 01:36:28.020] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, it'll take a few seconds and the first person to get through will, um, will reach the cell phone that I'm holding in my hand.
[01:36:28.240 --> 01:36:29.960] [SPEAKER_00]: I will then pick up the cell phone.
[01:36:30.100 --> 01:36:31.280] [SPEAKER_00]: I will then turn the speaker on.
[01:36:31.440 --> 01:36:32.580] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if it defaults to that.
[01:36:33.160 --> 01:36:35.840] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, hopefully we'll hear a voice of somebody.
[01:36:35.940 --> 01:36:39.200] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you are that caller, uh, be a little patient with us.
[01:36:39.380 --> 01:36:40.740] [SPEAKER_00]: It might be hard to understand us.
[01:36:41.040 --> 01:36:41.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:36:41.200 --> 01:36:42.040] [SPEAKER_00]: We are getting a call.
[01:36:42.140 --> 01:36:44.740] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's, uh, let's turn the speaker on.
[01:36:44.960 --> 01:36:46.280] [SPEAKER_00]: And answer this.
[01:36:46.840 --> 01:36:47.680] [SPEAKER_00]: And good evening.
[01:36:47.680 --> 01:36:49.460] [SPEAKER_00]: You're on W-B-A-I.
[01:36:51.520 --> 01:36:52.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, hold on.
[01:36:52.560 --> 01:36:53.360] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not working.
[01:36:53.740 --> 01:36:54.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, let's try...
[01:36:54.160 --> 01:36:54.620] [SPEAKER_00]: There we go.
[01:36:55.540 --> 01:36:55.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:36:56.140 --> 01:36:57.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Please, uh, say that again.
[01:37:05.920 --> 01:37:06.240] It's me.
[01:37:06.800 --> 01:37:07.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.
[01:37:07.500 --> 01:37:07.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:37:07.940 --> 01:37:10.860] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting that call waiting to tell me because I didn't hit the button fast enough.
[01:37:11.020 --> 01:37:12.720] [SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, we, we do appreciate your call.
[01:37:12.900 --> 01:37:14.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, where are you calling from?
[01:37:15.520 --> 01:37:17.160] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm calling from Muncie, New York.
[01:37:17.960 --> 01:37:18.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Muncie, New York?
[01:37:19.620 --> 01:37:21.260] [SPEAKER_00]: That is in Rockland County, yes.
[01:37:21.260 --> 01:37:22.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, great.
[01:37:22.560 --> 01:37:22.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.
[01:37:23.260 --> 01:37:24.420] [SPEAKER_00]: 914 area code, right?
[01:37:24.440 --> 01:37:25.120] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it 845?
[01:37:26.460 --> 01:37:28.260] Uh, I'm at 845.
[01:37:28.500 --> 01:37:28.720] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:37:29.240 --> 01:37:29.880] [SPEAKER_00]: You gotta know these things.
[01:37:30.520 --> 01:37:31.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well...
[01:37:31.200 --> 01:37:32.640] [SPEAKER_00]: I got one question.
[01:37:32.760 --> 01:37:32.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds good.
[01:37:33.160 --> 01:37:33.560] [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead.
[01:37:33.560 --> 01:37:34.440] [SPEAKER_00]: I read, uh,
[01:37:38.000 --> 01:37:41.320] [SPEAKER_09]: um, hackers hacking a car, hacking into the system.
[01:37:41.720 --> 01:37:43.520] [SPEAKER_09]: I think you guys had mentioned it.
[01:37:43.680 --> 01:37:43.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:37:43.860 --> 01:37:45.440] [SPEAKER_09]: And I don't know if you guys are aware.
[01:37:45.600 --> 01:37:47.320] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't remember his name right now.
[01:37:47.420 --> 01:37:53.760] [SPEAKER_09]: But there was a famous, um, reporter who, I think he broke the story on, portray it.
[01:37:53.760 --> 01:38:09.780] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, and he died, his car, it was very mysterious, it was traveling at extreme high speed, and people have speculated that it was possible that his car had been hacked, and that he had been murdered, um, in your world.
[01:38:09.780 --> 01:38:11.560] [SPEAKER_09]: Is anyone talking to you about that?
[01:38:12.540 --> 01:38:13.740] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a, that's interesting.
[01:38:13.980 --> 01:38:16.180] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I, I know what you're talking about, um, vaguely.
[01:38:16.280 --> 01:38:29.980] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was a Mercedes he was driving in LA, and, uh, there was speculation because of the forensics of the scene, how the motor of the vehicle had been thrown really far away, that just the car broke up in a really, uh, catastrophic way.
[01:38:30.420 --> 01:38:33.300] [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, after that, there was some speculation around that.
[01:38:33.400 --> 01:38:41.300] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't heard anything recently, but, um, I guess we could, we could look around maybe for some updates, and if you have anything, um, you could send us, that'd be great, too.
[01:38:41.480 --> 01:38:43.660] [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, oth@2600.com.
[01:38:45.000 --> 01:38:45.320] Okay.
[01:38:46.080 --> 01:38:48.300] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, thanks, uh, thanks very much for that first call.
[01:38:48.640 --> 01:38:51.160] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're gonna try and, we're gonna try and do it again.
[01:38:51.300 --> 01:38:54.960] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna, uh, re-enable this, and, uh, hopefully we'll get a second call in a matter of moments.
[01:38:55.220 --> 01:38:56.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Bernie, how did that sound to you?
[01:38:57.680 --> 01:38:59.600] [SPEAKER_07]: I could, uh, I could hear the caller pretty well.
[01:38:59.720 --> 01:39:02.640] [SPEAKER_07]: They were a little faint, but, um, the point is it worked.
[01:39:02.640 --> 01:39:08.640] [SPEAKER_07]: And as you, as you put them closer to the microphone or raise their, I don't know what you did, but I could hear everything.
[01:39:08.980 --> 01:39:11.320] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't had the call, so let's, uh, let's take this call now.
[01:39:11.560 --> 01:39:12.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, good evening.
[01:39:12.340 --> 01:39:13.540] [SPEAKER_00]: You're on Off The Hook.
[01:39:17.550 --> 01:39:19.170] [SPEAKER_00]: Hang on, I'll make sure the speaker is on.
[01:39:20.170 --> 01:39:20.710] [SPEAKER_00]: Hang on.
[01:39:20.810 --> 01:39:24.070] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, uh, Hacker Mentality said he wanted to call and comment on the Hacker Mentality.
[01:39:24.070 --> 01:39:25.870] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, but I'm trying to figure out this damn phone.
[01:39:25.990 --> 01:39:27.430] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hitting the button and nothing's happening.
[01:39:27.550 --> 01:39:28.030] [SPEAKER_02]: Hurry up.
[01:39:28.390 --> 01:39:29.710] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, you know what?
[01:39:30.150 --> 01:39:31.650] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, somehow I lost him.
[01:39:31.770 --> 01:39:32.690] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you still there, caller?
[01:39:33.750 --> 01:39:34.510] Yep, still here.
[01:39:34.590 --> 01:39:36.910] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, the screen, oh, you know what happened?
[01:39:37.250 --> 01:39:38.210] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to decline this.
[01:39:38.410 --> 01:39:39.590] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, Bobson from Bulgaria is.
[01:39:39.610 --> 01:39:43.430] [SPEAKER_00]: I can, I can see that, but, um, yeah, you know what?
[01:39:43.550 --> 01:39:45.110] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I, okay, now we're back.
[01:39:45.310 --> 01:39:46.610] [SPEAKER_00]: You're from Pennsylvania, are you not?
[01:39:49.600 --> 01:39:51.380] [SPEAKER_00]: See, people's caller ID is being sent.
[01:39:51.480 --> 01:39:54.100] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, we can show people how to block it.
[01:39:54.240 --> 01:39:57.780] [SPEAKER_00]: This stupid phone keeps going out and, um, yeah.
[01:39:57.840 --> 01:39:59.160] [SPEAKER_02]: Hit the top button there.
[01:39:59.260 --> 01:40:00.560] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm trying, I'm trying.
[01:40:00.760 --> 01:40:03.900] [SPEAKER_00]: Folks, fill, fill some time with the talk while I get this working.
[01:40:04.400 --> 01:40:08.000] [SPEAKER_01]: I can, uh, I can mention that the 2600 meetings are happening all over the world.
[01:40:08.000 --> 01:40:08.940] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you could do that.
[01:40:09.180 --> 01:40:11.340] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, 2600.com/meetings.
[01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:13.200] [SPEAKER_01]: Find one near you or start one near you.
[01:40:13.200 --> 01:40:14.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I think I've got this figured out.
[01:40:14.640 --> 01:40:15.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, caller, are you with us?
[01:40:15.780 --> 01:40:16.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you with us now?
[01:40:17.660 --> 01:40:17.900] Yes.
[01:40:18.160 --> 01:40:24.400] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we hit the right, see what happened was, uh, call waiting, uh, kicked in as soon as you, your call was answered.
[01:40:24.400 --> 01:40:27.660] [SPEAKER_00]: And I couldn't hit the speaker button because it was onto a different screen.
[01:40:27.980 --> 01:40:31.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't able to, I was, I was almost answering another call.
[01:40:31.620 --> 01:40:32.760] [SPEAKER_00]: It was really, really frustrating.
[01:40:32.880 --> 01:40:35.600] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're from Pennsylvania because you did not block your caller ID.
[01:40:35.760 --> 01:40:36.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that correct?
[01:40:37.060 --> 01:40:37.440] Correct.
[01:40:37.780 --> 01:40:38.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:38.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And...
[01:40:38.800 --> 01:40:41.180] [SPEAKER_11]: And I'm seeing you on Illinois' area code, it looks like.
[01:40:41.460 --> 01:40:41.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:40:42.660 --> 01:40:43.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And you had a question for us.
[01:40:44.700 --> 01:40:51.930] [SPEAKER_06]: I just, more like an observation about the hacker bunch that a lot of people pick up when you're talking to them.
[01:40:52.550 --> 01:40:58.350] [SPEAKER_06]: And sadly, it seems to be the implication that it's meaning a more nefarious than criminal intent.
[01:40:59.510 --> 01:41:06.110] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's just kind of sad, particularly when you're talking to people and then they run into a bad situation or dispute.
[01:41:06.950 --> 01:41:10.150] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they'll come up to you and they're like, hey, I heard you're good with computers.
[01:41:10.750 --> 01:41:13.350] [SPEAKER_06]: So can you log into somebody's account for me?
[01:41:13.750 --> 01:41:15.830] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, think about that for a minute, though.
[01:41:16.390 --> 01:41:21.510] [SPEAKER_06]: If somebody was mad at you, would you want them logging into your account and, like, going from there, doing anything?
[01:41:21.930 --> 01:41:23.290] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but this is...
[01:41:23.290 --> 01:41:24.830] [SPEAKER_06]: You leave it on, like, the personal beef level.
[01:41:24.830 --> 01:41:25.490] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just weird.
[01:41:25.730 --> 01:41:26.410] [SPEAKER_00]: It's different.
[01:41:26.430 --> 01:41:27.990] [SPEAKER_00]: It's different when it's you, though, isn't it?
[01:41:28.990 --> 01:41:29.750] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, absolutely.
[01:41:30.070 --> 01:41:31.910] [SPEAKER_06]: And nobody really has that anymore.
[01:41:31.910 --> 01:41:36.310] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you encounter people, be it on the street, the Internet, wherever.
[01:41:36.350 --> 01:41:40.930] [SPEAKER_06]: They just don't have that personability to say, hey, you're a person, too.
[01:41:40.990 --> 01:41:42.750] [SPEAKER_06]: I acknowledge you're doing your thing, you know.
[01:41:43.750 --> 01:41:44.930] [SPEAKER_06]: Trying to have a good day.
[01:41:45.090 --> 01:41:48.110] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe you'll have a better day if you're not trying to give other people a bad day.
[01:41:49.690 --> 01:41:53.110] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's just, like, everybody seems to step back from that, it seems.
[01:41:53.350 --> 01:41:54.950] [SPEAKER_06]: Not everybody, but predominantly.
[01:41:55.830 --> 01:41:56.350] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[01:41:56.410 --> 01:41:57.290] [SPEAKER_11]: You just don't have that.
[01:42:00.370 --> 01:42:07.570] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, people are very quick to be on the offense and not empathize with other people as much.
[01:42:07.590 --> 01:42:09.130] [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely see that.
[01:42:09.270 --> 01:42:10.430] [SPEAKER_02]: I see where you're going with that.
[01:42:10.430 --> 01:42:11.410] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a good point.
[01:42:11.690 --> 01:42:22.650] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we really do have to empathize in the course of our daily lives and be considerate about how you use knowledge.
[01:42:33.430 --> 01:42:35.010] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good analogy.
[01:42:55.230 --> 01:43:02.930] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would guess there's a large segment of our audience who's used to being sort of the computer guy for their friends and family or things like that.
[01:43:03.050 --> 01:43:05.410] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, do on to others.
[01:43:05.410 --> 01:43:10.710] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and another aspect of that is people have these preconceived notions.
[01:43:10.930 --> 01:43:12.510] [SPEAKER_02]: So, they presume certain things.
[01:43:12.610 --> 01:43:18.370] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's up to you to tell them, you know, what your ethics are like, how you feel about certain things.
[01:43:18.370 --> 01:43:20.430] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's an individual thing.
[01:43:20.950 --> 01:43:27.530] [SPEAKER_02]: That's, you know, people derive their ethics and stuff from their own identity and upbringing and so on and so forth.
[01:43:27.710 --> 01:43:38.770] [SPEAKER_02]: So, definitely, yeah, it's good to correct people when they're making a presumption about you and your willingness to do certain things, violate, you know, all that kind of stuff.
[01:43:39.710 --> 01:43:43.090] [SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely up to you to let them know how you feel about that.
[01:43:43.430 --> 01:43:57.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the best is always, like, at something like a 2600 meeting or, like, when I'm just wandering around out in the world wearing a hacker t-shirt or something and a complete stranger will walk up to me and say, you know, hey, I'd really like to get into my significant other's email or can you fix my credit or something.
[01:43:57.510 --> 01:43:58.530] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you hack by Facebook?
[01:43:58.690 --> 01:43:59.170] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
[01:43:59.310 --> 01:43:59.970] [SPEAKER_00]: Not my Facebook.
[01:44:00.090 --> 01:44:00.890] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone else's Facebook.
[01:44:00.890 --> 01:44:05.690] [SPEAKER_01]: So, somebody basically is willing to go up to a complete stranger and ask, hey, will you go commit a crime for me?
[01:44:07.990 --> 01:44:08.310] Yeah.
[01:44:08.890 --> 01:44:12.610] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, listen, I want to thank you very much for your call and we're going to open up to somebody else.
[01:44:13.350 --> 01:44:13.570] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[01:44:13.650 --> 01:44:14.310] [SPEAKER_02]: Excellent, thanks.
[01:44:14.410 --> 01:44:14.770] Play yourself.
[01:44:15.050 --> 01:44:15.810] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, take care.
[01:44:16.190 --> 01:44:16.850] [SPEAKER_02]: That's so funny.
[01:44:17.050 --> 01:44:17.650] [SPEAKER_02]: That's so funny.
[01:44:17.730 --> 01:44:28.350] [SPEAKER_02]: I heard some guys, I was at a bar the other night, I just overheard them talking and the one guy was telling the other guy just about all this stuff they can do, they can do.
[01:44:28.350 --> 01:44:32.850] [SPEAKER_02]: And I knew it was a good conversation because there was the ubiquitous they.
[01:44:34.110 --> 01:44:35.950] [SPEAKER_00]: That, by the way, is the sound of Bernie S.
[01:44:36.110 --> 01:44:38.930] [SPEAKER_00]: somehow getting disconnected in Maine.
[01:44:39.370 --> 01:44:40.810] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what to do about this.
[01:44:41.110 --> 01:44:43.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we sure that's not a seagull?
[01:44:44.990 --> 01:44:47.050] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a robust seagull, if it is.
[01:44:48.250 --> 01:44:53.610] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't do anything about this because I'm caught up in the digital world here with taking phone calls.
[01:44:53.970 --> 01:44:57.870] [SPEAKER_00]: And since Bernie can't participate, I think we might just say goodnight to him for now.
[01:44:58.410 --> 01:44:59.570] [SPEAKER_00]: And goodnight, Bernie.
[01:45:00.050 --> 01:45:01.370] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, he's fine.
[01:45:01.790 --> 01:45:02.990] [SPEAKER_00]: Up there in Maine, yes.
[01:45:03.150 --> 01:45:04.930] [SPEAKER_00]: And let's take another phone call.
[01:45:05.090 --> 01:45:11.510] [SPEAKER_00]: The phone number again is 331-223-WBAI.
[01:45:11.590 --> 01:45:17.510] [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't want your caller ID sent to this cell phone, dial star 67 first or call from a line that you know is blocked.
[01:45:17.510 --> 01:45:26.330] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, if we see caller ID, we're not going to give out your number, but we'll mention that we're able to see it so that you have that information and you're better prepared that way.
[01:45:26.570 --> 01:45:28.230] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, we have a phone number coming in.
[01:45:28.310 --> 01:45:31.290] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's Bobson again from Bulgaria, I can tell, from the caller ID.
[01:45:32.570 --> 01:45:33.990] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Bobson, how are you?
[01:45:35.050 --> 01:45:36.390] Good evening, folks.
[01:45:37.110 --> 01:45:37.730] [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't it cool?
[01:45:37.830 --> 01:45:39.530] [SPEAKER_00]: I knew who you were before you started speaking.
[01:45:39.810 --> 01:45:40.410] [SPEAKER_00]: I knew who you were before you started speaking.
[01:45:40.650 --> 01:45:41.150] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[01:45:41.650 --> 01:45:42.090] Around here.
[01:45:46.640 --> 01:45:51.460] [SPEAKER_04]: There were some things you spoke earlier that I wanted to mention.
[01:45:52.380 --> 01:45:54.900] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, well, make it quick, because other people are waiting as well.
[01:45:55.600 --> 01:46:02.020] Yes, assembled violence in Philly.
[01:46:02.680 --> 01:46:08.060] There were people in Philadelphia who last thing I heard.
[01:46:08.220 --> 01:46:09.680] [SPEAKER_00]: To rebuild Hitchbot, yes.
[01:46:12.580 --> 01:46:15.700] [SPEAKER_04]: You also mentioned Mr. Robot and CSI Cyber.
[01:46:16.620 --> 01:46:17.100] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:46:17.180 --> 01:46:26.640] [SPEAKER_04]: The things I could say about these shows are not going to be on that list of words I'm not supposed to mention on the radio, so I'm not going to...
[01:46:26.640 --> 01:46:29.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Bobson, you're saying you don't like Mr. Robot, is that what you're saying?
[01:46:36.660 --> 01:46:37.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I got lost in that.
[01:46:38.060 --> 01:46:38.860] [SPEAKER_00]: CSI Cyber.
[01:46:39.360 --> 01:46:44.140] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we were embellishing a little bit, but definitely, yeah, it's...
[01:46:44.140 --> 01:46:48.360] [SPEAKER_02]: There are some things to be desired with a lot of the programming out there about hackers.
[01:46:59.280 --> 01:47:02.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, thanks for that call from Bulgaria.
[01:47:03.220 --> 01:47:17.320] [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting, too, because we disable the forwarding to get to the cell phone as soon as we pick up, but the calls keep coming in anyway, so that tells me that this service, which I guess we can say is Google Voice, doesn't work right away.
[01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:20.040] [SPEAKER_00]: It takes a little bit of time for it to actually kick in.
[01:47:21.500 --> 01:47:28.820] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to give out the phone number again, 331-223-WBAI.
[01:47:28.820 --> 01:47:36.840] [SPEAKER_00]: That's our telephone number, 331-223-9224, and we're going to try and take another call as soon as one comes in.
[01:47:37.920 --> 01:47:39.160] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's working all right.
[01:47:39.880 --> 01:47:42.780] [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely working better than having no listener phone calls.
[01:47:42.900 --> 01:47:43.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:47:43.260 --> 01:47:43.840] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think, Barney?
[01:47:44.420 --> 01:47:44.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's right.
[01:47:44.820 --> 01:47:45.440] [SPEAKER_00]: He's gone, isn't he?
[01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:46.600] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[01:47:46.640 --> 01:47:49.900] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's take this call coming from the 718 area code someplace.
[01:47:51.300 --> 01:47:51.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.
[01:47:52.120 --> 01:47:53.000] [SPEAKER_00]: You're on the air.
[01:47:54.760 --> 01:47:55.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Speak up.
[01:47:56.660 --> 01:47:57.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, go ahead.
[01:47:57.560 --> 01:47:57.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Speak up.
[01:47:58.920 --> 01:48:00.560] [SPEAKER_09]: Hi, this is Pat Clark.
[01:48:01.820 --> 01:48:02.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:48:02.540 --> 01:48:03.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's exciting.
[01:48:03.620 --> 01:48:07.120] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to choose.
[01:48:07.660 --> 01:48:08.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[01:48:08.280 --> 01:48:09.620] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you won't find much of an argument.
[01:48:09.780 --> 01:48:10.500] [SPEAKER_00]: I support them.
[01:48:10.640 --> 01:48:10.900] I agree.
[01:48:15.550 --> 01:48:15.830] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:48:16.130 --> 01:48:17.630] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess that's...
[01:48:17.630 --> 01:48:20.030] [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about the concepts of justice and unity, so...
[01:48:20.570 --> 01:48:21.130] So what
[01:48:24.320 --> 01:48:24.660] is...
[01:48:24.660 --> 01:48:27.780] They should have a website and say justice and unity rules.
[01:48:28.040 --> 01:48:31.580] I mean, I'm not saying that what I mean.
[01:48:31.780 --> 01:48:33.000] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we do.
[01:48:33.140 --> 01:48:33.780] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we do.
[01:48:33.940 --> 01:48:34.780] [SPEAKER_00]: But thanks.
[01:48:34.920 --> 01:48:35.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for that.
[01:48:35.840 --> 01:48:36.860] [SPEAKER_00]: That was enlightening.
[01:48:37.700 --> 01:48:38.180] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[01:48:38.280 --> 01:48:38.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[01:48:38.600 --> 01:48:39.460] [SPEAKER_00]: I left the thing on.
[01:48:39.580 --> 01:48:41.920] [SPEAKER_00]: I left the button on, so we're going to continue taking phone calls.
[01:48:42.440 --> 01:48:43.680] [SPEAKER_00]: 331-223-WBAI.
[01:48:43.780 --> 01:48:47.880] [SPEAKER_00]: By the way, this phone number is not going to work after this show, so don't try calling it.
[01:48:48.140 --> 01:48:49.220] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll just get a...
[01:48:49.220 --> 01:48:50.180] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll get voicemail.
[01:48:50.280 --> 01:48:51.040] [SPEAKER_00]: You can leave a voicemail.
[01:48:51.120 --> 01:48:54.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, we'll maybe play it, and that'll be fun.
[01:48:55.000 --> 01:48:58.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's not a WBAI number, so it won't get you through to other shows that are on.
[01:48:59.100 --> 01:48:59.660] [SPEAKER_01]: And so on.
[01:48:59.760 --> 01:49:02.860] [SPEAKER_02]: We could probably make funny transcripts of your voicemail, too.
[01:49:03.140 --> 01:49:04.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know Google does that.
[01:49:04.740 --> 01:49:07.740] [SPEAKER_00]: They actually try to make transcripts, and it doesn't always work out.
[01:49:08.740 --> 01:49:09.740] [SPEAKER_00]: 331-223-WBAI.
[01:49:10.480 --> 01:49:12.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Lines are open right now, or line is open right now.
[01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:15.080] [SPEAKER_00]: 331-223-9224.
[01:49:15.680 --> 01:49:17.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, star 67, if you want to block your...
[01:49:17.820 --> 01:49:19.240] [SPEAKER_00]: This person blocked their number.
[01:49:19.580 --> 01:49:22.200] [SPEAKER_00]: Congratulations on blocking your phone number.
[01:49:22.940 --> 01:49:23.720] [SPEAKER_00]: You're on the air.
[01:49:23.820 --> 01:49:24.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead.
[01:49:27.480 --> 01:49:37.120] [SPEAKER_05]: I was the guy who called up some months ago about MP3 quality, and I've done some experiments at 3% to 6%, pretty trivial in the face of the subject matter you've talked about.
[01:49:37.120 --> 01:49:41.060] [SPEAKER_05]: Why don't you bring a connected cable and wire that cell up to the board?
[01:49:43.400 --> 01:49:50.520] [SPEAKER_05]: And in New Jersey, 201 was an original area code, but they also had 609.
[01:49:50.780 --> 01:49:54.060] [SPEAKER_00]: That's because 609 was not an original area code.
[01:49:54.060 --> 01:49:55.780] [SPEAKER_00]: That was an expansion at one point.
[01:49:56.320 --> 01:50:01.640] [SPEAKER_05]: There's the hacking, the politics of hackers.
[01:50:02.720 --> 01:50:13.820] [SPEAKER_05]: We all who are listening and talking here tend to be what the commercial media might call left-wing, but in reality, isn't hacking just being a soldier of some kind?
[01:50:14.040 --> 01:50:28.380] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you can imagine soldiers on opposite sides killing each other one day and being nice to the next, like in World War I, but the Soviets and the Nazis probably because they're not together.
[01:50:28.800 --> 01:50:33.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I think it couldn't be more different, an individual and a soldier.
[01:50:33.700 --> 01:50:40.140] [SPEAKER_00]: A soldier is supposed to be one part of a massive unit to carry forth some kind of an operation.
[01:50:40.560 --> 01:50:45.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Hackers are not good soldiers because they ask questions, they reveal things.
[01:50:45.180 --> 01:50:46.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Look at Bradley Manning.
[01:50:46.220 --> 01:50:47.220] [SPEAKER_00]: What happened there?
[01:50:48.680 --> 01:50:55.020] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really, it's not a good concept, I don't think, to foster of hackers being part of some kind of army.
[01:50:55.160 --> 01:50:56.520] [SPEAKER_00]: The media is always trying to do this.
[01:50:56.520 --> 01:51:06.060] [SPEAKER_00]: They're always trying to say the Chinese have this army of hackers, but if they really were hackers, they'd be a bunch of people questioning the rules and bending them as much as possible domestically and internationally.
[01:51:09.720 --> 01:51:27.340] [SPEAKER_05]: Whoever it is that works for the federal government and NSA listening to this phone call directly lay in higher fidelity than you can get on the cell phone, and those people from the anti-abortion side, those are...
[01:51:32.030 --> 01:51:39.230] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, first of all, the NSA is probably not anyone human actually listening to answer that.
[01:51:39.470 --> 01:51:51.310] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I would say that people who do things that use hacking skills or elements of hacking attitudes and so on can also be criminals.
[01:51:51.310 --> 01:51:53.870] [SPEAKER_02]: We've said this a lot in the past to make the distinction.
[01:51:54.690 --> 01:52:12.190] [SPEAKER_02]: So definitely there are people who use elements and things that hackers have found out or are trademarks of hacking skills and techniques, but they may serve different, very, very different ends.
[01:52:12.330 --> 01:52:20.450] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, I think, why you will not see a lot of things modeled after military in so far as this community in the broadest sense of it.
[01:52:24.770 --> 01:52:36.630] [SPEAKER_05]: The people who are anti-abortion and hacked the Planned Parenthood could very well be in someone's employ.
[01:52:36.930 --> 01:52:41.130] [SPEAKER_05]: The more I listen to WBAI, the more dirty I see things around me.
[01:52:41.250 --> 01:52:43.630] [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, I have personal knowledge of lots of dirt than
[01:52:46.860 --> 01:52:47.540] I ever looked at.
[01:52:47.640 --> 01:52:48.940] [SPEAKER_00]: There's always more dirt, yes.
[01:52:49.040 --> 01:52:49.720] [SPEAKER_00]: We know that.
[01:52:49.720 --> 01:52:52.980] [SPEAKER_02]: So to answer that, actually, that's actually a really good distinction.
[01:52:53.120 --> 01:52:58.520] [SPEAKER_02]: To answer that, okay, so they could have been in their anti-abortion circle, the hackers of the group.
[01:52:58.520 --> 01:53:05.800] [SPEAKER_02]: They could also have been apathetic, objective, completely disinterested hackers who did it for hire.
[01:53:05.960 --> 01:53:21.880] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, those two scenarios could be very much a possibility, but I don't think in my circle of friends or other groups of hackers that they would say that those people were hackers necessarily, but maybe in their circles, they might consider themselves hackers,
[01:53:21.940 --> 01:53:23.120] [SPEAKER_02]: if that's their community.
[01:53:31.160 --> 01:53:32.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, wait, could you repeat that last sentence?
[01:53:33.700 --> 01:53:40.720] [SPEAKER_00]: We want the term to be used to describe people like
[01:53:44.900 --> 01:53:45.720] those guys.
[01:53:45.840 --> 01:53:48.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, no, I would not say that at all.
[01:53:48.700 --> 01:53:55.360] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, there are many people that I disagree with politically on a massive scale that I still consider to be hackers.
[01:53:55.560 --> 01:54:00.120] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not... you said many of us are left-wing, and that might be true of this room, of this station.
[01:54:00.420 --> 01:54:01.980] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not true of the hacker community.
[01:54:02.280 --> 01:54:04.000] [SPEAKER_00]: There might be a left-wing contingent.
[01:54:04.100 --> 01:54:05.180] [SPEAKER_00]: There's also a right-wing contingent.
[01:54:05.300 --> 01:54:07.000] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about political ideology.
[01:54:07.000 --> 01:54:08.680] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about curiosity.
[01:54:08.760 --> 01:54:10.380] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about individualism.
[01:54:10.580 --> 01:54:13.220] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe one side lends itself more to that than another.
[01:54:13.440 --> 01:54:21.900] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to make that distinction, but I'm also not going to assume that everybody subscribes to the same ideology, because that would be wrong.
[01:54:23.340 --> 01:54:23.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
[01:54:23.840 --> 01:54:31.070] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's getting murkier and murkier, because it's becoming more like the soldiers.
[01:54:31.290 --> 01:54:41.290] [SPEAKER_05]: The soldiers, frankly, in many cases, I mean, given World War II, the World War II analogy I gave, the Soviets theoretically were defending their homeland.
[01:54:41.670 --> 01:54:47.730] [SPEAKER_05]: So you would look at them as an outside observer and say, well, I'm a little bit more on their side, because they're the underdog, they're the defender.
[01:54:47.730 --> 01:54:52.870] [SPEAKER_05]: They're the soldiers in other wars with
[01:54:56.480 --> 01:54:57.000] their officers.
[01:54:57.240 --> 01:55:01.900] [SPEAKER_02]: So in World War I, you had a little bit of crossing the line at Christmas one of the years.
[01:55:02.040 --> 01:55:05.360] [SPEAKER_02]: There is an element of that being quite true.
[01:55:05.980 --> 01:55:14.440] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, hackers do get together and work in incredibly different parts of the world and for different entities around the world and often do not get along.
[01:55:14.720 --> 01:55:22.560] [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of personalities within that spectrum and attitudes and ethics and so on and so forth.
[01:55:23.240 --> 01:55:24.280] [SPEAKER_02]: So, but again,
[01:55:27.410 --> 01:55:32.110] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, it's, yeah, this is a good debate.
[01:55:32.410 --> 01:55:33.990] [SPEAKER_00]: An hour long we could talk about.
[01:55:34.230 --> 01:55:35.050] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a couple.
[01:55:41.870 --> 01:55:50.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And the other thing is, though, I think it can be agreed that the news media and the government are using the hacking label.
[01:55:50.850 --> 01:55:52.590] [SPEAKER_05]: They're carrying on like endlessly.
[01:55:52.890 --> 01:55:55.750] [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to be to justify more surveillance.
[01:55:56.230 --> 01:55:58.850] [SPEAKER_05]: And it is irrelevant for whom the hackers work.
[01:55:59.010 --> 01:56:14.290] [SPEAKER_05]: If they work for them, obviously, they're not, you know, excuse me, if a technical pro is going to work for them, a corporation, government, or people that they pay off or whatever their dirty thing is, obviously they're not going to talk about it and they're not going to mind.
[01:56:14.590 --> 01:56:22.310] [SPEAKER_05]: But all of this business of the threat of technical inquiry is going to be
[01:56:25.500 --> 01:56:25.980] surveillance.
[01:56:26.380 --> 01:56:26.920] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
[01:56:27.060 --> 01:56:33.560] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, uh, my story earlier was about people who are dismissing technology outright because of all the reports they were hearing about hacking.
[01:56:33.600 --> 01:56:35.000] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, oh, you can do this, you can do that.
[01:56:35.080 --> 01:56:36.980] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they can make you out to be this kind of bad guy.
[01:56:37.020 --> 01:56:39.480] [SPEAKER_02]: So I just tell all my buddies, I don't touch a computer.
[01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:40.880] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a wrong way to be.
[01:56:41.060 --> 01:56:52.140] [SPEAKER_02]: You need to embrace how to properly use these things and educate yourself and not just be afraid and have visceral, uh, rejection of, uh, tools and resources and information.
[01:56:52.600 --> 01:56:53.040] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[01:56:53.120 --> 01:57:02.140] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the main distinction is if you're doing something as a soldier, you're doing it because someone told you to, if you're doing something at a hacker, as a hacker that you're doing it because your own investigations and beliefs led you there.
[01:57:02.580 --> 01:57:03.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:57:03.140 --> 01:57:19.660] [SPEAKER_00]: And the one, the one thing I wanted to finish with here very quickly is, um, a story that, uh, really disturbed me, uh, from England, uh, a young computer hacker from Birmingham in England has been named as number three on the United States kill list of key ISIS operatives.
[01:57:20.140 --> 01:57:29.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, Junaid Hussein fled to Syria in July of 2013 is now believed to be leading the cyber caliphate, the terrorist owned branch of hackers from the Iraqi city of Mosul.
[01:57:30.620 --> 01:57:36.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, U.S. officials have reportedly said there is an intense desire to assassinate Hussein who, uh, tweets under, well, I'm not gonna give his Twitter handle.
[01:57:37.020 --> 01:57:45.360] [SPEAKER_00]: Point is this guy is, is basically known for hacking into websites and taking over Twitter accounts and they want to assassinate him because of that.
[01:57:45.740 --> 01:57:48.160] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is, he may be doing other things.
[01:57:48.300 --> 01:57:53.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he's doing really evil things, but the fact that that is something that we can say with a straight face is U.S.
[01:57:54.160 --> 01:57:55.860] [SPEAKER_00]: policy is really, really disturbing.
[01:57:55.960 --> 01:57:56.920] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to spend more time on that.
[01:57:57.020 --> 01:57:57.740] [SPEAKER_00]: We're out of time now.
[01:57:58.060 --> 01:58:02.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, so we're going to have to say goodnight for now, but let's give out that phone number one more time for the, for the pledges.
[01:58:04.880 --> 01:58:05.520] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[01:58:05.620 --> 01:58:06.360] [SPEAKER_00]: Now your mic on, go ahead.
[01:58:07.160 --> 01:58:09.060] [SPEAKER_02]: 212-209-2950.
[01:58:09.340 --> 01:58:11.720] [SPEAKER_02]: That's 212-209-2950.
[01:58:12.020 --> 01:58:12.900] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got the hacker calendar.
[01:58:13.100 --> 01:58:17.000] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got the, uh, the, uh, RF, uh, uh, DVD.
[01:58:17.240 --> 01:58:22.840] [SPEAKER_00]: What I got the fire agent going by we've got, yeah, we've got the hacker calendar autograph, $50 pledge.
[01:58:22.980 --> 01:58:31.880] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got the, um, uh, the cell phone, uh, um, documentary, um, on, um, mobilize on, on cell phone radiation and the dangers for a hundred dollar pledge.
[01:58:31.980 --> 01:58:33.380] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950.
[01:58:34.800 --> 01:58:36.540] [SPEAKER_01]: Or give2wbai.org.
[01:58:36.780 --> 01:58:37.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[01:58:37.300 --> 01:58:40.120] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I want to thank everybody for participating in the experiment tonight.
[01:58:40.280 --> 01:58:41.680] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, I think it worked out all right.
[01:58:41.780 --> 01:58:43.220] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we did, we did okay.
[01:58:43.280 --> 01:58:44.000] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll try to do it again.
[01:58:44.180 --> 01:58:45.580] [SPEAKER_00]: If we don't have regular phone lines in here.
[01:58:45.940 --> 01:58:46.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:58:46.120 --> 01:58:46.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Good to hear our listeners.
[01:58:47.260 --> 01:58:47.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Write to us.
[01:58:48.160 --> 01:58:50.040] [SPEAKER_00]: oth@2600.com.
[01:58:50.220 --> 01:58:50.940] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you next week.
[01:58:51.020 --> 01:58:51.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Good night.