Off The Hook - 2015-12-09

[00:00.000 --> 00:02.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: 60 Wall Street in the Atrium in Lower Manhattan.
[00:02.860 --> 00:16.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: To repeat, on Sunday, December 13th, starting at 1 p.m., all are invited to the WBAI cab, which will be having an open meeting at 60 Wall Street in the Atrium in Manhattan.
[00:16.300 --> 00:31.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: For further information, see the WBAI cab page at WBAI.org, or visit our Facebook page at 99.5 FM Radio WBAI Community Advisory Board.
[00:31.680 --> 00:32.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[00:37.120 --> 00:39.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:39.740 --> 00:41.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: The time is 7.01.
[00:41.780 --> 00:46.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or no, 7.02, actually, which means it's time for Off The Hook.
[00:51.540 --> 00:56.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:56.980 --> 01:01.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:02.160 --> 01:06.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: We couldn't get much worse, it would.
[01:07.240 --> 01:09.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bum-dilly-bum, but the best expect the worst.
[01:10.360 --> 01:12.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood.
[01:12.420 --> 01:13.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bum-dilly-bum!
[02:38.240 --> 02:39.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:39.880 --> 02:40.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:40.760 --> 02:44.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Mike.
[02:44.600 --> 02:45.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[02:45.520 --> 02:45.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Rob T.
[02:46.060 --> 02:46.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Firefly.
[02:46.820 --> 02:47.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[02:47.820 --> 02:48.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Kyle.
[02:48.660 --> 02:48.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[02:49.560 --> 02:50.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Bernie S.
[02:51.080 --> 02:52.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:52.760 --> 02:55.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we're on for two hours tonight.
[02:56.780 --> 02:59.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Extra expanded edition of the program.
[02:59.900 --> 03:03.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's start, first of all, by dispelling a few myths.
[03:03.860 --> 03:10.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, it's a fundraiser show, but we are not going to be spending a whole lot of time asking you to call in.
[03:10.220 --> 03:10.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why?
[03:10.460 --> 03:19.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because we've only done two shows since the last fundraiser, and you know, there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough, and there's only so much the audience can take.
[03:19.560 --> 03:19.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know.
[03:20.060 --> 03:24.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you want to support us, please call us and show your support.
[03:25.300 --> 03:26.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, like, here's the thing.
[03:26.540 --> 03:28.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-209-2950.
[03:28.980 --> 03:34.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Call now and get your pledge in, and then you won't have to listen to us asking for money for the rest of the two hours.
[03:34.200 --> 03:34.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: There you go.
[03:34.380 --> 03:34.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's simple.
[03:35.180 --> 03:38.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Rob, I understand your paintings are being offered again.
[03:38.340 --> 03:39.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: They are indeed.
[03:39.720 --> 03:46.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have... I did a set of paintings for our last... for our fundraiser a while back, and there are still a few left.
[03:46.860 --> 03:51.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Paintings of various historical hacker luminaries, figures from Hacker History.
[03:51.760 --> 03:54.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And for a pledge of $50, you can get one of those.
[03:54.180 --> 03:56.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ask for the luminaries of the Hacker World painting.
[03:56.820 --> 04:04.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or I'm doing a new set now, which will be paintings of various historical and interesting telephones, which you can get.
[04:04.340 --> 04:06.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ask for the historical telephone painting.
[04:07.100 --> 04:16.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can go to give2wbai.org and search for paintings, or you can give us a call, 212-209-2950, and help us keep doing what we're doing here.
[04:16.500 --> 04:19.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: So if people ask for... What was it they asked for?
[04:19.960 --> 04:28.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: You could ask for a luminaries of the Hacker World painting, or you can ask for a historical telephones painting, either of those for a pledge of $50 or more.
[04:29.160 --> 04:30.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we have two separate premiums then?
[04:30.520 --> 04:33.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Two separate premiums, because there are only a very few of the Hacker luminaries left.
[04:33.740 --> 04:35.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think there are four left last I looked.
[04:35.960 --> 04:40.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we also have the keynote addresses that we offered last time.
[04:40.680 --> 04:44.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's all the keynotes for all the HOPE conferences, all 10 of them.
[04:44.820 --> 04:48.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And actually, it's more than 10 talks, because we had several keynotes for some conferences.
[04:49.780 --> 04:56.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Those are available on DVD for a pledge of $50 or on flash drive, thumb drive, for a pledge of $75.
[04:57.060 --> 05:00.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's all in full DVD quality and all that.
[05:00.320 --> 05:02.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, 718-780-8888.
[05:02.940 --> 05:05.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, wait, that's our phone number for taking calls.
[05:05.260 --> 05:06.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry, we have two phone numbers now.
[05:06.640 --> 05:08.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is two completely different numbers.
[05:08.540 --> 05:10.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-209-2950.
[05:10.600 --> 05:11.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the number to call the pledge.
[05:11.940 --> 05:18.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: The other number I just gave out, 718-780-8888, is our call-in number, and we will be taking calls later on.
[05:18.200 --> 05:21.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: But maybe if you call that number, you shouldn't read your credit card number on the radio.
[05:22.000 --> 05:22.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, don't do that.
[05:22.640 --> 05:23.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: We won't let you do that.
[05:24.120 --> 05:27.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I had a nightmare with my credit card company.
[05:27.840 --> 05:30.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tell me if anyone's ever experienced anything like this.
[05:30.220 --> 05:34.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: I won't spend too much time on it, but I'll spend more time talking about this than asking people to call in yet again.
[05:35.840 --> 05:39.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: I had a kind of a suspicious charge that I noticed.
[05:39.360 --> 05:40.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And yeah, okay, you can laugh.
[05:40.500 --> 05:41.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: The charge was from January.
[05:42.560 --> 05:48.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've, you know, at the end of the year, you basically go over all your financial records and all that.
[05:48.440 --> 05:56.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I had been using a card while traveling because I was using the card that had no fee for international transactions.
[05:56.760 --> 05:59.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: So it was maybe six or seven pages long.
[05:59.300 --> 06:05.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was a huge bill, and it was in foreign languages, and it was very hard to figure everything out.
[06:05.920 --> 06:14.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there was something in the middle of it that kind of leapt out, and it was a mail-order charge to some company in Illinois.
[06:14.340 --> 06:17.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Actually, it was a public television company, if you can believe that.
[06:18.100 --> 06:20.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so I was wondering, what is this?
[06:20.260 --> 06:21.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is this a charge for?
[06:21.460 --> 06:23.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is this something that, you know, that I actually bought?
[06:24.000 --> 06:24.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't remember.
[06:24.720 --> 06:25.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was in January.
[06:25.600 --> 06:27.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was traveling at the time.
[06:27.200 --> 06:29.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just kind of an odd charge to have on there.
[06:30.040 --> 06:34.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I called Chase, the credit card company that controls all the credit cards now, apparently.
[06:35.440 --> 06:36.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you know what?
[06:36.260 --> 06:38.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't keep records past 90 days.
[06:38.460 --> 06:39.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: That is what they told me.
[06:39.700 --> 06:42.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, we have no record of anything beyond 90 days.
[06:43.000 --> 06:45.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I wasn't looking to reverse the charges.
[06:45.580 --> 06:47.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just want to know what it was.
[06:47.980 --> 06:50.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: I called the company that's listed there.
[06:50.320 --> 06:51.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just get an answer machine.
[06:51.220 --> 06:51.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't call back.
[06:52.060 --> 06:58.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: But you figure the credit card company would have some kind of record as to what it was, some kind of reference number, anything.
[06:59.300 --> 07:04.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, the only information is what's on your bill, which is the amount, the company name, and the date.
[07:05.160 --> 07:11.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the funny thing is, they had contacted me on that very day to say they were concerned about fraud on my account.
[07:12.040 --> 07:18.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the charges that they were concerned about were recurring charges that were completely legitimate that had appeared before.
[07:18.020 --> 07:20.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I said at the time, no, what are you, stupid?
[07:20.480 --> 07:22.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: These are completely legitimate charges.
[07:22.420 --> 07:23.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: They've appeared before.
[07:23.240 --> 07:24.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why do you think this is something of concern?
[07:24.880 --> 07:27.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: They didn't tell me about the one suspicious charge.
[07:28.140 --> 07:32.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: So it's just, it's been really kind of almost a funny nightmare.
[07:32.640 --> 07:49.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: All I want to find out from these people, and I know somewhere in the bowels of Chase, they have a record of a transaction beyond 90 days in the past where they can tell what it was, maybe more information, phone number, or some kind of reference number,
[07:50.140 --> 07:50.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: anything like that.
[07:51.100 --> 07:55.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we've been operating a store since 1999 at 2600.
[07:56.140 --> 08:00.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we can go back to any sale and tell somebody, yeah, this is what this was for.
[08:00.480 --> 08:01.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not that hard to do.
[08:01.840 --> 08:06.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I just have a feeling I'm coming up against a brick wall because they don't want to put in the effort.
[08:07.080 --> 08:13.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sometimes you can get different information on the website of these credit card companies than you can on the statement.
[08:14.120 --> 08:15.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Like, what kind of information?
[08:15.860 --> 08:17.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can't even see a bill that far back.
[08:17.800 --> 08:19.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can't... It's January of this year?
[08:20.100 --> 08:22.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: I couldn't... Actually, you know what?
[08:22.200 --> 08:26.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: You might be... There might be something there, but the only thing I've ever seen is a PDF, which is a copy of the bill.
[08:27.220 --> 08:27.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[08:28.180 --> 08:35.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I usually don't go back that far because I don't pay that, you know, attention to finances that far in my past.
[08:35.840 --> 08:38.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in general, there's information.
[08:38.400 --> 08:39.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's different information.
[08:39.540 --> 08:49.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, I bought an Amtrak ticket recently and I could go on the website of my credit card company and it would tell me, like, what Amtrak is in case I didn't know.
[08:49.580 --> 08:51.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it wouldn't tell me that on the bill itself.
[08:51.940 --> 08:53.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: So maybe you can try that.
[08:53.560 --> 08:53.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[08:54.040 --> 09:06.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: I did have a good experience with that same credit card and Amtrak because I found out literally the day that the program was ending that I could transfer a huge number of points over to my Amtrak rewards program.
[09:06.080 --> 09:07.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I got 65,000 points.
[09:07.700 --> 09:08.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's a lot of Amtrak.
[09:08.940 --> 09:10.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: I could go cross country again.
[09:11.020 --> 09:18.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's... but, you know, this just annoys me because I know there are situations where people need that information and it's... they definitely have it.
[09:18.720 --> 09:20.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're just being kind of pigheaded.
[09:20.920 --> 09:21.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[09:21.260 --> 09:31.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: You would think when the company's one job is to take money from location A and give it to location B, they would somewhere in their, you know, volumes of records have some idea of what location B was.
[09:32.280 --> 09:32.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[09:32.720 --> 09:33.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[09:33.140 --> 09:41.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you can be sure that if, uh, there was a lawsuit involved in, I'm not suggesting you start one, but like if they really needed this information, they could get it.
[09:41.660 --> 09:41.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[09:42.060 --> 09:44.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, I, you know, I'm not looking to reverse it.
[09:44.420 --> 09:44.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's my fault.
[09:45.040 --> 09:50.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I should have, uh, questioned it within the 90 days, which I know is, is, is the max that you can question a charge.
[09:51.300 --> 09:54.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I do want to know, and they have this information, what was it for?
[09:54.520 --> 09:57.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, and, you know, if it was a fraudulent charge, who was it sent to?
[09:57.460 --> 09:58.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can tell me that.
[09:58.420 --> 10:01.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can tell me who it was sent to, then I can deal with it on my own.
[10:01.620 --> 10:02.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm happy to do that.
[10:03.020 --> 10:22.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: It would be cool if they, if the stuff that they flagged, they, uh, kept like by default so that that information you could go back and look at, even if you said, Oh no, there's no fraud today, maybe accidentally or something like that, but you'd still have whatever triggered it in some sort of organized area.
[10:22.980 --> 10:27.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Cause at an automated system wanted it to go for more scrutiny.
[10:28.180 --> 10:32.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: So maybe it'll like save in your, um, in your account info.
[10:32.840 --> 10:36.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's coming back to me now because you and I were traveling at the time this happened.
[10:36.660 --> 10:44.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I remember pulling over in the rental car that we had and talking to somebody on the phone at chase and explaining to them that, yes, I'm traveling.
[10:44.320 --> 10:45.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm legitimate.
[10:45.280 --> 10:48.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: That charge was for a place I'm staying while I'm traveling.
[10:49.240 --> 10:52.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And these other charges that you're giving me are charges that recur every month.
[10:52.760 --> 10:59.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't even know why you're asking me about these charges because they're obviously legitimate, but he never mentioned this charge, which was the suspicious one.
[11:00.140 --> 11:00.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[11:00.500 --> 11:14.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm thinking even if they, if you okay it mistakenly, like there, whatever was triggered should still like be organized in a way to go back and look at, especially if you want to like much later and it's a period of time that ordinarily you wouldn't go back and,
[11:14.580 --> 11:17.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: and scrutinize the, the actual purchases.
[11:17.300 --> 11:23.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they say that, uh, the Internet never forgets and that all these computer records are, are kept forever, but they're really not.
[11:23.460 --> 11:33.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: If people don't look after that, if they don't, uh, uh, uh, actually open up the files and, and, uh, give access to people that have legitimate access to them or should have legitimate access to them.
[11:33.920 --> 11:34.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernie, any thoughts on this?
[11:35.420 --> 11:36.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I, I agree with Mike.
[11:36.920 --> 11:43.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's inconceivable that, uh, chase does not have a more detailed records about this, uh, transaction from back in January.
[11:44.480 --> 11:52.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, uh, as I recall, this isn't the first time you've had, uh, uh, an unauthorized or a potentially unauthorized charge to your card.
[11:52.620 --> 11:56.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Didn't somebody once buy a dog and dog food with your credit card?
[11:56.240 --> 11:57.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Someone did buy a dog, yeah.
[11:57.400 --> 12:01.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, this, um, um, I'm not sure if that was, no, that was on Amex, actually.
[12:01.800 --> 12:02.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm pretty sure that was on Amex.
[12:03.220 --> 12:09.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, we were able to have the dog, uh, returned because it was an illegitimate, uh, purchase.
[12:10.120 --> 12:13.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: The dog was repossessed from its, uh, illegal purchaser?
[12:13.520 --> 12:20.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I just know that it was not a, a, uh, a, a legitimate purchase and was not... You reversed a dog.
[12:20.620 --> 12:21.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: I had to.
[12:21.400 --> 12:22.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's no choice.
[12:22.920 --> 12:28.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Something, uh, you have to look at these, at these, uh, statements very carefully because they're not going to, uh, look at them for you.
[12:29.140 --> 12:35.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, you can have things reversed, but after a certain amount of, uh, time, they're going to claim that they don't have the info, and we all know they do.
[12:35.620 --> 12:38.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, I, I, I don't want to spend so much time talking about my problems.
[12:38.820 --> 12:41.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just lucky that we're experts in dog repossession.
[12:41.540 --> 12:42.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, yeah.
[12:42.580 --> 12:43.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, well, we became experts.
[12:44.180 --> 12:52.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, we should be talking, though, about, um, uh, something more important, namely, um, uh, crypto and, um, and, and the dangers that it's facing now.
[12:52.700 --> 13:08.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: With all this, uh, renewed interest in terrorism because of, uh, of all night cable news networks that obsess over it, um, now all of a sudden, um, um, encrypting anything is seen to be tantamount to being a terrorist.
[13:08.620 --> 13:19.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, we see this pretty much all the time, but what's particularly ironic here is that there's absolutely no indication that, that any kind of, uh, cryptography was even used, uh, in any of the terrorist, uh, incidents that took place.
[13:19.600 --> 13:30.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm talking about Paris, I'm talking about San Bernardino, and I'm talking about Colorado City, uh, which apparently nobody believes is a terrorist act, even though today pretty much the guy said, hey, you know what?
[13:30.960 --> 13:32.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: This was a terrorist act, whatever.
[13:33.160 --> 13:37.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: The point is that we, encrypted messages were not used in any of those.
[13:37.760 --> 13:54.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, even if they were used in, in, um, in those particular, um, incidents and they were the reason why somebody couldn't find out, um, uh, about something, um, I still think that's not a valid reason to expect people to not use encryption.
[13:55.520 --> 13:57.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anybody have any other views?
[13:57.760 --> 14:01.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, look, the U.S. government, uh, is an expert in, in using encryption.
[14:02.280 --> 14:09.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's, it's links to the drones that it uses to terrorize people all around the world are in fact encrypted, so they should know how useful it can be.
[14:09.960 --> 14:23.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the, the fact of the matter is that, um, many other people are not so expert, uh, as the U.S. is, and they, they just come up with any excuse to, to, to try and, uh, have access to everything.
[14:23.580 --> 14:23.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[14:24.200 --> 14:24.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[14:24.500 --> 14:26.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is pretty much any excuse.
[14:26.940 --> 14:29.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's basically, yeah, you know, they could have done this.
[14:29.380 --> 14:32.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: So because they could have done this, we need to ban it.
[14:32.360 --> 14:42.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It really is going in, uh, being like embroiled in this discussion without real finding, uh, uh, findings that, that point to it.
[14:42.320 --> 15:00.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, and, and really if it was, um, as critical, um, a tool, I think we would be in, we're in, we would be in much more, uh, a deeper state of peril or we're already sort of screwed because, uh, it, it is proven to be very difficult to access.
[15:00.460 --> 15:03.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, really good encryption is really good, uh, these days.
[15:04.120 --> 15:22.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, um, it's, it's sort of weird that, I mean, it, it's been used a little bit, um, and there is some software and stuff like that, that, that is being talked about, uh, as, as part of tools that this particular, um, group is using in, in different ways,
[15:22.260 --> 15:26.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: but it's not like the backbone of it, so to speak.
[15:26.120 --> 15:35.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, it's not like there's like these words mastermind, these huge, big plots that are all encrypted and we have to just decrypt everything so that we can uncover them.
[15:36.100 --> 15:45.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: I feel like there's a lot more investigative work and not just, um, electronic communications are, are where a lot of the planning is going on and the ideas themselves are conceived.
[15:45.800 --> 15:48.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, the word you used, I think is, is, is the focus of this tools.
[15:48.940 --> 15:51.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: These are tools and tools are used by everybody.
[15:52.280 --> 15:58.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, encryption is a tool and encryption can be used by, uh, by people investigating criminals as well.
[15:58.800 --> 16:04.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it, it, it should be thought of in that way, not just a one-sided thing where only the criminals benefit.
[16:04.760 --> 16:05.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, it's, it's a tool.
[16:06.040 --> 16:06.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not going anywhere.
[16:07.060 --> 16:07.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mike.
[16:07.440 --> 16:11.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it should be clear that, uh, uh, a lack of encryption.
[16:11.360 --> 16:19.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: If, if people stopped using strong crypto, it would lead to much more crime because we would be unable to protect electronic commerce.
[16:19.160 --> 16:22.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: We would be unable to protect electronic communications.
[16:22.220 --> 16:26.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: The government would be unable to protect, uh, the records that it holds.
[16:26.340 --> 16:31.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: There would be much more crime if crypto was less available and less strong.
[16:32.020 --> 16:32.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[16:32.640 --> 16:33.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Encryption.
[16:33.340 --> 16:39.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it's scary that, uh, this talk is that this, uh, A discussion is happening just over encryption as a generic term.
[16:39.820 --> 16:43.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just encryption itself is a basic fact of safety on the Internet.
[16:43.200 --> 16:44.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like locking your home when you leave.
[16:45.500 --> 16:48.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is pretty much saying that trying to pay... Wait, wait, wait.
[16:48.740 --> 16:49.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: You lock your home?
[16:49.820 --> 16:50.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: I do.
[16:50.480 --> 16:52.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: How does the government get in to help you?
[16:52.620 --> 16:54.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't want them coming in and seeing my meth labs.
[16:54.500 --> 16:57.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, I mean, if you do that, that's... you got something to hide, apparently.
[16:57.560 --> 16:58.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, exactly.
[16:58.280 --> 17:04.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like making it illegal or taboo in some way to lock your home just in case you're hiding something shady inside.
[17:06.080 --> 17:11.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that, you know, is obviously ludicrous, but it's the equivalent of what we're talking about here in the physical realm.
[17:11.860 --> 17:13.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: And yeah, it's scary.
[17:13.480 --> 17:14.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Encryption is a tool.
[17:14.500 --> 17:15.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: It can be used by bad people.
[17:15.620 --> 17:16.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: It can be used by good people.
[17:16.720 --> 17:18.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: It can be used by neutral people.
[17:18.960 --> 17:21.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's important to be able to use.
[17:21.200 --> 17:21.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know what?
[17:21.780 --> 17:23.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think we don't use it enough.
[17:24.460 --> 17:27.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, my email, a lot of my email is not encrypted.
[17:28.120 --> 17:28.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: That bothers me.
[17:29.100 --> 17:30.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of our web browsing, not encrypted.
[17:31.360 --> 17:32.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of what we do is not encrypted.
[17:32.780 --> 17:34.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: We don't use encryption enough.
[17:34.240 --> 17:38.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: We need to spread it around a lot more and make it easier to use.
[17:39.400 --> 17:52.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: What these guys are proposing, left and right, people in charge in countries all over the world, they're proposing making it even harder, making it more restricted, giving them backdoor access, all the things that will make it completely useless.
[17:53.200 --> 17:53.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Kyle?
[17:53.380 --> 18:00.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, indeed, suffice to say, it is going into this debate kicking and screaming.
[18:00.740 --> 18:09.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's hopefully kicking and screaming, because it's convenient, I think, politically to raise doubt.
[18:09.640 --> 18:18.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think that's the language that we're hearing a lot from politicians, is that we have a problem here.
[18:18.620 --> 18:26.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just like they're able to conflate religion and so on with killings, it's, you know, this faith has a problem.
[18:26.920 --> 18:33.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, now it's IT and information services have a problem.
[18:33.620 --> 18:35.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the problem is encryption.
[18:35.600 --> 18:38.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that, it's like, it's total reverse framing.
[18:38.440 --> 18:38.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead.
[18:38.860 --> 18:50.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Companies like Google and all the others that are making it easy for terrorists by not clamping down, by not giving the government access to everything that they do in spying on their users.
[18:50.100 --> 18:58.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the stupider it sounds, the more people, the more the thrust of it being a problem is thrown about.
[18:58.700 --> 19:01.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the information I think right now is really lacking.
[19:01.680 --> 19:07.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, with real, I don't know, research points of view.
[19:07.160 --> 19:13.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, it's, there's some really insane stuff being said about encryption in general, the idea, as we said, it's a tool.
[19:13.460 --> 19:25.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I mean, to, to politicize it and say that it's a tool that's, I don't know, got a position or not, or, I mean, it's essentially a neutral technology.
[19:26.280 --> 19:35.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, the government is complaining about going dark, and people who are not in the studio, which is all of our audience, can't see me making scare quotes when I say going dark, but, but I am.
[19:35.660 --> 19:36.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Scare quotes?
[19:36.600 --> 19:37.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, scare quotes.
[19:37.860 --> 19:38.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now you can see what I'm doing.
[19:38.940 --> 19:39.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm clarifying for you.
[19:40.360 --> 19:40.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[19:40.800 --> 19:41.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[19:43.680 --> 19:49.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, but what that term, what they're going dark from is the ability to read people's communications without notifying them.
[19:50.120 --> 19:59.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, if I have data on my phone, and the government wants to see it, they can still come to me, arrest me and demand that I give them the data.
[19:59.640 --> 20:01.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, but you'd never, you'd never cave into that.
[20:01.900 --> 20:02.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ever.
[20:02.560 --> 20:02.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: What?
[20:02.820 --> 20:06.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: You could be tortured, you could be threatened with all sorts of things, you would never give that information.
[20:06.320 --> 20:07.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, Mike doesn't know how to sing.
[20:07.800 --> 20:10.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because you would not be in this room if you gave up information like that.
[20:10.320 --> 20:12.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it's a certain code that we all follow.
[20:12.840 --> 20:13.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[20:13.260 --> 20:19.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: That, that regardless, what the government wants the ability to do is to be able to read my communications without me knowing.
[20:20.040 --> 20:20.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what they mean.
[20:20.980 --> 20:22.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what's going dark.
[20:22.760 --> 20:25.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're not going dark from serving subpoenas on people.
[20:26.080 --> 20:27.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're not going dark from arresting people.
[20:27.620 --> 20:30.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: They sure are good at that in the government.
[20:30.280 --> 20:31.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're going dark.
[20:31.500 --> 20:33.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's not even clear that it's true.
[20:33.500 --> 20:39.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they claim they're going dark from being able to read people's communications in secret without their permission.
[20:39.520 --> 20:45.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that is a form of darkness that I really encourage the government to learn to deal with.
[20:45.700 --> 20:46.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[20:46.320 --> 20:51.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And once they can do that whenever they want without notifying you, that, that also kicks due process out the window.
[20:51.600 --> 20:57.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can't, you know, they're not bound by needing to get a, to get your, to get hold of your phone to get your warrant.
[20:58.260 --> 21:04.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like what we were talking about last week with our guest and his national security letter where if you're served it, you're not allowed to say that you've been served it.
[21:04.780 --> 21:08.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: He, by the way, finally released the, the full three pages of the national security letter.
[21:09.020 --> 21:10.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Only the target's name is blacked out.
[21:10.900 --> 21:12.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: So people who want to find that.
[21:12.800 --> 21:14.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bernie, did you have anything to add?
[21:15.760 --> 21:16.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[21:16.800 --> 21:26.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Kyle touched on something about, uh, our own government, uh, politicizing, um, the situation where people were, uh, where a lot of people were killed.
[21:26.980 --> 21:46.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, well, it's not hardly the first time our government has done that, but I just find it particularly disgusting and distasteful that our own government would dishonor the lives of families of people who, the lives of, uh, the people that were, that were just recently killed in these terrorist incidents by using them as a,
[21:46.800 --> 21:53.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: as a pawn to take away people's right to communicate privately.
[21:53.240 --> 21:54.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's really disgusting.
[21:54.920 --> 22:09.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I'm offended on it just on a basic privacy level, but that we use, capitalize on people's deaths to, to use this false argument that if we only could read everybody's communications, we'd be much safer, which isn't the case anyway.
[22:09.240 --> 22:16.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's, as you pointed out, there's no evidence at all that encryption was, was used by the terrorists that committed these recent, uh, horrific acts.
[22:16.060 --> 22:19.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's, it really makes me sick to my stomach, our government's doing it.
[22:19.340 --> 22:19.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay.
[22:19.660 --> 22:27.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, Bernie, uh, sick though you may be, uh, you should not be surprised because every government in the world wants this ability and they always have.
[22:27.420 --> 22:31.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, look what happened after 9-11 and the PATRIOT Act being passed so quickly.
[22:31.560 --> 22:37.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: They basically had it ready to go in case something happened where they could get it through quickly without much of a fight.
[22:37.880 --> 22:39.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think the same thing is happening here.
[22:39.880 --> 22:40.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not surprised.
[22:40.760 --> 22:45.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would say I'm shocked, shocked that our government would do such a thing, but they're doing it again.
[22:45.760 --> 22:56.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: And people should wake up to the fact that our government is lying to us about, about, uh, criminalizing the use of encryption or having backdoors to encryption will make us safer.
[22:56.940 --> 23:00.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: It will, it will make us more at risk.
[23:01.260 --> 23:02.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, go ahead, Mike.
[23:02.180 --> 23:06.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And to be clear, it'll make us not merely at more risk from our government spying on us.
[23:06.400 --> 23:11.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: It will also make us more at risk from criminals spying on us, the very thing they claim to be concerned about.
[23:11.660 --> 23:15.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, it's all well and good for me to rant about this, uh, on the radio.
[23:16.300 --> 23:29.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but there is a special place that I ranted about this last night, which is the White House has produced a little form where they are soliciting the feedback of everyone in the country on this issue.
[23:29.020 --> 23:30.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: You were ranting at the White House?
[23:30.380 --> 23:31.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, in a little box.
[23:31.480 --> 23:31.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was fun.
[23:32.240 --> 23:32.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good for you.
[23:33.020 --> 23:33.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: A little text box on the website.
[23:34.200 --> 23:35.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, oh, okay.
[23:35.200 --> 23:36.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is cyber stuff.
[23:36.540 --> 23:38.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, a cyber box, a cyber text box.
[23:38.700 --> 23:39.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've used one of those.
[23:39.520 --> 23:39.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[23:40.000 --> 23:47.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, although, uh, I, I managed to complete my entire rant without using the word cyber, which I think is...
[23:47.460 --> 23:47.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well done.
[23:48.060 --> 23:49.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you use the word cipher?
[23:49.620 --> 23:50.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: I did not.
[23:50.360 --> 23:50.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[23:50.600 --> 23:51.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I could have.
[23:51.980 --> 24:07.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, and anyway, so what happened was there was a petition to the White House on their official petition website, got a hundred, over a hundred thousand signatures, uh, to, you know, encourage the White House to take the stance that, uh, we should continue to have online security.
[24:08.280 --> 24:15.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, the White House's response was, well, we want people to tell us what they think about this, even though a hundred thousand people already told them what they think.
[24:15.640 --> 24:34.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, but if you would like to fill out this text box, I encourage you to go on the White House's website and find the little text box and tell them that you think encryption is important, that you think security is important, and, uh, that you want the government to protect these things.
[24:34.300 --> 24:38.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or I guess if you disagree, put that in the text box too, but, you know.
[24:38.360 --> 24:38.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[24:38.760 --> 24:40.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, uh, let them know.
[24:40.240 --> 24:45.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, and, um, you know, again, um, don't be surprised because this is what governments want.
[24:45.640 --> 24:46.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is what governments do.
[24:46.960 --> 24:50.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not just our government and also not just people in government.
[24:51.000 --> 24:51.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, here's an example.
[24:52.380 --> 24:53.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've all heard about this.
[24:53.920 --> 24:57.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: This, uh, maniac who's running for president is not part of the government.
[24:57.120 --> 24:57.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hopefully never will be.
[24:57.920 --> 25:04.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, he basically, uh, first he, he went after the Muslims and, and suggested that they not be allowed into our country anymore.
[25:05.520 --> 25:17.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, and then he, um, he went after the Internet and said Americans should consider closing the Internet up in some way to fight Islamic state terrorist in cyberspace.
[25:17.260 --> 25:17.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[25:17.980 --> 25:18.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's sorry.
[25:18.900 --> 25:19.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: If I just made.
[25:19.600 --> 25:21.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, please interrupt any quote from Donald Trump.
[25:21.740 --> 25:30.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, that is exactly the kind of quotation that I had, uh, been deriding against when we first started talking about this, because that's exactly it.
[25:30.460 --> 25:41.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Then the lack of understanding of how a network works and just blanket condemnation, um, to push this, this attitude.
[25:41.040 --> 25:43.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's, it's, again, I think we've said this a bunch.
[25:43.780 --> 25:51.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've, I've railed about it a bit about the political season, but follow the fear, follow the, the, the knee jerk reaction.
[25:51.940 --> 26:12.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: They want to elicit is that we're to be fearful and that, that this kind of, um, giving up this liberty, this expression that, which is essentially, um, what cryptography can be, uh, to give that up, um, for safety to, to, um, to give you some false sense of security.
[26:12.420 --> 26:13.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, that's what it is.
[26:13.260 --> 26:15.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Cause it isn't actual security.
[26:15.160 --> 26:21.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Security is running your own perhaps, uh, uh, services or encryption and, and, and so on and so forth.
[26:21.120 --> 26:26.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: So we really need to upend this logic cause there is, it's really weak as it is.
[26:26.400 --> 26:34.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we, we need to tear it up to shreds cause you're basically, you're basically objecting to Trump's plan and saying that that plan might violate freedom of speech.
[26:34.800 --> 26:38.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm saying that the Internet is not going to agree with him on that.
[26:38.240 --> 26:38.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[26:38.420 --> 26:43.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: So he would say to you, because he did address that point directly that these are foolish people.
[26:43.500 --> 26:44.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a lot of foolish people.
[26:44.800 --> 26:45.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's referring to you, Kyle.
[26:45.860 --> 26:46.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's referring to you.
[26:46.860 --> 26:49.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Donald Trump has called you out and has called you a foolish person.
[26:49.980 --> 26:53.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he went on, he went on beyond that to say, we have to go see Bill Gates.
[26:53.480 --> 27:00.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's like, you know, a trip down the yellow brick road or something, uh, to better understand the Internet and then possibly close it up.
[27:01.360 --> 27:01.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hmm.
[27:01.680 --> 27:08.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now he's talking, these are real technical terms here because the Internet does have a close up button and he knows where it is.
[27:08.260 --> 27:10.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Apparently just folds right up like a box.
[27:10.420 --> 27:10.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[27:11.160 --> 27:11.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[27:11.620 --> 27:12.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bill Gates knows how to do it.
[27:13.280 --> 27:19.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, he characterized the problem of Internet extremism, Internet extremism by saying we're losing a lot of people because of the Internet.
[27:20.640 --> 27:24.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think he's losing a lot of brain cells because of his mouth, but whatever.
[27:24.900 --> 27:28.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, so, uh, but the thing is, okay, so that's what Trump is saying.
[27:28.380 --> 27:31.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Trump says all kinds of ridiculous things and we all laugh and laugh until it becomes reality.
[27:31.880 --> 27:34.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then we realized that, uh, we should have been doing more than just laughing.
[27:35.240 --> 27:36.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, next Tuesday is next debate.
[27:37.400 --> 27:39.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: All those other people, they have to destroy this guy.
[27:39.940 --> 27:43.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: If they don't destroy him, then they are not patriotic Americans as far as I'm concerned.
[27:43.220 --> 27:47.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, let's be clear though, on this particular issue, there is bipartisan support.
[27:48.060 --> 27:48.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yes.
[27:48.220 --> 27:48.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[27:48.500 --> 27:49.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was about to get to that.
[27:49.440 --> 27:49.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[27:49.920 --> 27:54.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Hillary Clinton, in fact, um, has been, um, uh, saying similar type things.
[27:54.740 --> 28:07.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, uh, to the people that criticized, um, well, she didn't exactly say close up the Internet, but, uh, the people that criticize clamping down on encryption, she said, we're going to hear all the usual complaints, you know, freedom of speech, et cetera.
[28:07.800 --> 28:19.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know if she did the scary quotes, but, uh, if we, um, truly are in a war against terrorism and we are truly looking for ways to shut off their funding, shut off the flow of foreign fighters, then we've got to shut off their means of communicating.
[28:19.660 --> 28:22.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's more complicated with some of what they do on encrypted apps.
[28:22.440 --> 28:23.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm well aware of that.
[28:23.320 --> 28:26.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that requires even more thinking about how to do it.
[28:26.700 --> 28:34.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, and Obama has said, uh, that he would urge high tech and law enforcement leaders to make it harder, uh, to use technology to escape from justice.
[28:34.920 --> 28:36.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's very vague.
[28:36.060 --> 28:43.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, um, I'm not sure that's referring specifically to encryption and, uh, Hillary Clinton kind of vague as well.
[28:43.220 --> 28:46.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not specifically saying, did she say encryption at any point?
[28:46.560 --> 28:47.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I don't know.
[28:48.240 --> 28:53.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: She says we have to have more support from our friends in the technology world.
[28:53.500 --> 28:53.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[28:53.860 --> 28:55.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I'm in the technology world.
[28:55.200 --> 28:56.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not her friend on this issue.
[28:56.340 --> 28:57.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, that's just reaching out to you, Mike.
[28:57.960 --> 28:59.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: To deny online space.
[28:59.180 --> 29:04.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just as we have to destroy ISIS's would-be caliphate, we have to deny them online space, which is...
[29:04.900 --> 29:06.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, so let's be clear.
[29:06.220 --> 29:09.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, uh, Hillary Clinton is, like, not nearly as insane as Trump.
[29:09.520 --> 29:13.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: She's not proposing, like, locking up every Muslim in the country or anything like that.
[29:13.960 --> 29:20.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, on this issue, on the issue of, um, protecting our security online, they are...
[29:20.460 --> 29:22.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's very little difference between them.
[29:22.680 --> 29:24.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that is scary to me.
[29:24.360 --> 29:25.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think there's a difference between them.
[29:25.940 --> 29:39.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I, I, I don't agree with what she's saying, but I think somebody as ignorant as Trump in charge, it would be a lot worse if, if he actually was able to get some legislation passed that would make it illegal to use certain programs.
[29:39.300 --> 29:42.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: I did not put that past him to do something crazy like that.
[29:42.640 --> 29:43.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can't see...
[29:43.200 --> 29:48.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember, um, Bill Clinton was, uh, presiding over the whole clipper chip fiasco.
[29:48.440 --> 29:48.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hmm.
[29:48.780 --> 29:50.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we saw how that went.
[29:50.380 --> 29:58.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Once it was proven that, uh, the whole thing was completely insecure in the first place, courtesy of, uh, of, uh, Matt Blaze, our friend, um, they dropped it.
[29:58.380 --> 29:59.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: They dropped it, and they didn't pick it up again.
[30:00.160 --> 30:08.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think reason can be heard, you know, with legitimate political people as opposed to, uh, uh, to fascists, I'll say it.
[30:08.600 --> 30:16.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I hope, I hope you're right, and I encourage people, as I said, to go on the White House forum and put their thoughts there, as well as other forms of political pressure.
[30:17.100 --> 30:25.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the position right now, the uninformed Hillary Clinton position, is too close to Trump's uninformed position for my comfort.
[30:25.520 --> 30:26.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is the address?
[30:26.520 --> 30:27.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: How do people get there?
[30:27.380 --> 30:28.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just, uh, whitehouse.gov?
[30:28.600 --> 30:31.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, just search White House crypto comments or something.
[30:31.260 --> 30:31.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to read along.
[30:31.900 --> 30:33.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: That'll get you on the list if you do that, won't it?
[30:34.480 --> 30:35.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, okay, we'll vote.
[30:36.000 --> 30:36.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: And is there a deadline?
[30:36.900 --> 30:37.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[30:37.380 --> 30:42.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just want to say, uh, I thought Hillary Clinton was really in favor of email privacy.
[30:43.260 --> 30:43.600]  Her own.
[30:44.440 --> 30:45.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I can think.
[30:45.600 --> 30:51.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, all these politicians are, I'm sure even Trump is in favor of his own email privacy, but, uh, that doesn't help the rest of us.
[30:51.980 --> 30:52.040]  Huh.
[30:52.480 --> 30:53.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, maybe, uh...
[30:53.340 --> 30:54.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hypocrisy is just amazing.
[30:54.860 --> 30:57.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe we can find out if Trump uses encryption anywhere.
[30:57.440 --> 30:57.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what?
[30:58.280 --> 30:59.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: He doesn't.
[30:59.420 --> 31:04.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's face it, I'm sure he's, he doesn't know how to even begin launching PGP or anything like that.
[31:04.340 --> 31:06.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, now this, um, uh, go ahead.
[31:07.200 --> 31:20.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I just wanted to say, like, in the, the comments from the White House, also, again, just listen for the framing of what the Internet is and what their, their idea of talking to the leaders of the Internet.
[31:20.120 --> 31:21.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's insane.
[31:21.680 --> 31:31.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are no, I mean, we, you, me, everyone logging in on the Wi-Fi hotspot, wherever, your favorite cafe, everywhere in the world, we are all the Internet.
[31:31.600 --> 31:44.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: And for them to say that, uh, uh, a leader of a company is the answer to, to fixing the Internet, or to say that these service providers, I mean, they're not even talking about ISPs and so on.
[31:44.620 --> 31:48.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're talking about, uh, major corporations that provide services.
[31:48.640 --> 31:54.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, they probably mean carriers too, now that everyone is using mobile telephones and so on and so forth.
[31:54.980 --> 31:56.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, but it's abject ignorance.
[31:57.180 --> 32:11.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what they're talking about is akin to not being able to express yourself on the Internet, because the same technology for invading all of this product would be used as much, probably for blocking sites that maybe disagree with, with certain opinions and so on.
[32:11.920 --> 32:24.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: So there's a, it's very specific ignorance that it's, it's because the, the, you know, talking about the Internet's complicated or it's, it's a big, big, uh, nebulous sort of idea.
[32:24.700 --> 32:25.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Great.
[32:25.180 --> 32:33.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's all fine and well, but just, just passively, like the average American listening to that says maybe would say like, Oh, that's a good idea.
[32:33.300 --> 32:37.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll, I'll, I'll entrust this company or that company and they're going to solve it.
[32:37.260 --> 32:37.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's it.
[32:38.420 --> 32:40.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Speaking of good ideas, you just gave me an idea.
[32:40.360 --> 32:44.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you said we are the net, I realized, you know, we've got to, we've got to make a song.
[32:44.780 --> 32:46.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got to get all the luminaries of the Internet together.
[32:47.120 --> 33:00.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just like we are the world, we have to have something that explains all this, all the, all the, um, um, the, the threats of the Internet is, is facing from legislation from ignorami, uh, and, and just have really catchy lyrics.
[33:00.480 --> 33:11.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: We are the net, we are the users, we are, you know, somebody can figure out the lyrics, but let's just get all these people from Google and, and, and Yahoo and whatever else is out there, uh, and a bunch of hackers.
[33:11.500 --> 33:15.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is put something out and spread it around the world and, and, and just have a show of force.
[33:21.560 --> 33:24.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what I'm saying to everybody is that we are just emerging with this network.
[33:24.620 --> 33:29.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're just getting higher speed broadband access in, in both this country and around the world.
[33:29.960 --> 33:32.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Amazing services, amazing capabilities.
[33:32.960 --> 33:52.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, so this, this, the, the, um, the exciting part of that, what is possible is, is, is, um, really dependent on how vigilant we are and the way we educate our neighbors and the way we talk about Internet and as a resource, as a utility, as a community,
[33:52.640 --> 33:56.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: um, gathering place and a product of all of our consciousness.
[33:57.000 --> 33:58.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, that cannot be lost.
[33:58.660 --> 34:01.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is speech, all of it, encrypted, non-encrypted, everything.
[34:02.180 --> 34:02.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[34:02.620 --> 34:05.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what scares me about this is, uh, we're seeing two candidates right now.
[34:05.640 --> 34:10.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: One of, one of the apparently biggest candidates from the Republicans and one of the apparently biggest from the Democrats.
[34:11.260 --> 34:14.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're both very wrong on this issue, but they're both agreeing with each other.
[34:14.160 --> 34:18.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm very used to these two parties, uh, sort of always trying to point each other as, uh, as the wrong one.
[34:18.880 --> 34:23.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: But what this, uh, what this shows me is that, um, if, you know, be educated when you vote.
[34:23.940 --> 34:33.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you like a candidate, see what they think about this, you know, contact them directly through their, uh, whatever social media or, or mailing presence they have and, uh, see how they feel on this.
[34:33.720 --> 34:39.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because if you're listening to this program, chances are you actually care about this sort of thing and, uh, want to know more about the person you're voting for.
[34:39.680 --> 34:46.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, rather than just voting for one of these, uh, nut jobs, because you don't like the other one, you know, get, uh, educated as to what exactly you're voting for.
[34:47.160 --> 34:50.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm curious if a single candidate has a public key.
[34:51.520 --> 34:57.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are there any candidates out there that have public keys that have used, that use encryption without shame?
[34:57.900 --> 35:03.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, every candidate who's ever bought anything online on the Internet and typed their credit card number in has used encryption.
[35:03.580 --> 35:04.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not what I mean.
[35:04.520 --> 35:05.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what I mean.
[35:05.080 --> 35:12.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, do they actually have their own privately maintained key that they, they give to people to send encrypted messages?
[35:12.080 --> 35:15.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't mean through employment or through government or something like that.
[35:15.680 --> 35:19.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, something that they themselves, uh, subscribe to that they believe in.
[35:20.100 --> 35:22.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I think that's the wrong question.
[35:22.680 --> 35:23.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, like...
[35:23.220 --> 35:24.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because everybody I know has one.
[35:24.760 --> 35:27.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just about everybody in the community I know has their own public key.
[35:27.940 --> 35:28.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm just wondering if any politician...
[35:28.320 --> 35:29.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: You mean like a PGP key?
[35:29.480 --> 35:29.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: A PGP key?
[35:29.760 --> 35:30.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, a PGP key.
[35:30.660 --> 35:32.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Does any politician out there use PGP?
[35:32.980 --> 35:34.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'd win my support if you did.
[35:34.480 --> 35:35.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you can implement it.
[35:36.040 --> 35:37.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think Larry Lessig has one.
[35:38.080 --> 35:38.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[35:38.440 --> 35:39.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is he still running?
[35:39.440 --> 35:40.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, he dropped out.
[35:40.840 --> 35:41.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, he...
[35:42.080 --> 35:44.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I haven't heard a thing as far as that goes, but that...
[35:44.860 --> 35:45.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[35:45.060 --> 35:47.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: That would be a good example then if somebody...
[35:47.200 --> 35:53.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I'm looking at somebody more mainstream or even somebody currently in office someplace, a governor, a mayor, anybody.
[35:53.820 --> 36:00.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you know of a politician someplace that uses PGP, that has a public key somewhere, write to us.
[36:00.260 --> 36:01.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: oth@2600.com.
[36:01.900 --> 36:02.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: And send a key.
[36:02.260 --> 36:02.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it would mean something.
[36:02.920 --> 36:03.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Send a key.
[36:03.340 --> 36:04.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of course, you know what?
[36:04.140 --> 36:12.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: It would probably work against them because people like Trump would say, aha, this person enables secrecy and is basically causing terrorism.
[36:12.780 --> 36:14.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's where we're at right now.
[36:14.640 --> 36:15.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[36:16.740 --> 36:19.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is just so eerily reminiscent of...
[36:19.000 --> 36:22.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it was like 20, 23 years ago, the whole clipper chip debate.
[36:23.200 --> 36:39.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: As you pointed out, our friend Matt Blaze discovered that the government's attempt to provide a back door... to have a back door to private phone calls that anybody could have if they purchased an encryption device from AT&T, a telephone encryption device,
[36:39.380 --> 36:44.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: which I actually owned a couple of those things that were seized from me by the Secret Service.
[36:45.140 --> 36:56.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: He proved that this was a useless exercise in trying to have a spare key for the government to get into your communications.
[36:57.600 --> 37:09.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Once a government has a spare key, you can bet that that set of keys will be highly targeted by intelligence agencies and other bad guys around the world.
[37:10.540 --> 37:12.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then we will have no privacy at all.
[37:12.600 --> 37:18.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we'll be at far more risk, as Mike confirmed earlier, we'll be at far more risk than we are now.
[37:19.060 --> 37:21.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: So this is just insane.
[37:21.840 --> 37:22.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I'm with that, Bernie.
[37:23.040 --> 37:24.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I absolutely agree.
[37:24.380 --> 37:26.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is an exercise in futility.
[37:26.440 --> 37:35.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Once you allow any kind of access, you are completely defeating the purpose of encrypting in the first place.
[37:35.500 --> 37:36.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's indefensible, right?
[37:36.920 --> 37:47.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: You would then, to police a process that bypassed the very security that you're implementing, would be insanity.
[37:47.500 --> 37:51.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: You would be trying to watch traffic.
[37:51.600 --> 37:52.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know what you would do.
[37:52.620 --> 37:54.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: You would be doing a lot of stuff.
[37:54.160 --> 38:04.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know, intrusion detection, all of it, just because you allowed an entity the run of an algorithm, an encryption scheme.
[38:04.320 --> 38:07.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's completely indefensible.
[38:07.280 --> 38:08.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, period.
[38:08.400 --> 38:09.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's no point.
[38:09.680 --> 38:12.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: It completely shatters it as an option.
[38:13.540 --> 38:15.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to Off The Hook.
[38:15.460 --> 38:22.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're talking about encryption and the threat to encryption and the perceived threat that encryption causes.
[38:22.780 --> 38:24.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can join the conversation.
[38:24.360 --> 38:25.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're doing a two-hour show tonight.
[38:25.820 --> 38:29.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: But for the rest of this hour, I think we're going to be talking about this particular topic.
[38:29.400 --> 38:32.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our phone number is 718-780-8888.
[38:33.660 --> 38:35.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: 718-780-8888.
[38:35.560 --> 38:44.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, we're mentioning that there's a threat in this country from all different sides, but again, the threat is not limited to this country.
[38:44.400 --> 38:58.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: After the terror attacks that took place in Paris, French law enforcement has made it clear they want to have several powers added to a proposed law, including the move to forbid and block the use of the tour anonymity network.
[38:58.720 --> 39:01.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Forbid and block the use of the tour anonymity network.
[39:01.760 --> 39:02.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, you heard that right.
[39:02.680 --> 39:09.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's according to an internal document from the Ministry of Interior that was seen by French newspaper Le Monde.
[39:09.280 --> 39:16.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: That document talks about two proposed pieces of legislation, one around the state of emergency and the other concerning counter-terrorism.
[39:16.640 --> 39:25.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Regarding the former French law enforcement wish to, and here's a quote, forbid free and shared Wi-Fi connections during a state of emergency.
[39:26.380 --> 39:26.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[39:27.620 --> 39:36.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: They want to make it so you can't even go to a cafe and use free Wi-Fi and shared Wi-Fi while a state of emergency is taking place.
[39:36.560 --> 39:40.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think that that state of emergency has been expanded for a couple of months now.
[39:40.980 --> 39:42.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing they want us.
[39:42.440 --> 39:48.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: It would be one thing if there was real value in shutting down Wi-Fi for an hour or something.
[39:49.080 --> 39:51.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's clear that there would be no such value, but it would be one thing.
[39:52.080 --> 40:00.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they're defining state of emergency to mean like a permanent state of emergency while there's anyone anywhere in the world who doesn't like French people.
[40:02.240 --> 40:07.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: To be clear, in an actual emergency, the thing you want is more ability for people to communicate.
[40:08.480 --> 40:14.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: You want to be able to say, like, I'm okay by any communications network you can get your hands on.
[40:14.680 --> 40:14.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[40:15.920 --> 40:22.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I think shutting it down in a true emergency is precisely the wrong approach, but it's not even the approach they're going for.
[40:22.580 --> 40:27.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just like we've mentioned this before, but if you're debating an idiot, you want the idiot to continue speaking.
[40:28.000 --> 40:34.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't want to shut them up because the more they say, the more they're going to prove how much of an idiot they really are.
[40:34.840 --> 40:36.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the same thing goes for criminals.
[40:36.880 --> 40:48.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: If people are conspiring in a criminal manner, whether it be by Wi-Fi or on Twitter or something like that, you kind of want to let them keep going so that you can learn more about them and see just what it is they're planning on doing.
[40:50.000 --> 40:59.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Encryption does not enter into things like that, basically, and it hasn't been proven to be something that has been used in any of these cases in the first place.
[40:59.500 --> 41:10.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if it were, if it were something that was used commonly, there are still good old fashioned detective methods of tracking people who are doing suspicious things.
[41:10.500 --> 41:13.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: As long as people talk to each other, that's always going to be the case.
[41:13.580 --> 41:17.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: And law enforcement is always going to try and make it seem like they need more power.
[41:17.380 --> 41:20.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: They need to be able to look at more of what you're saying and thinking.
[41:20.680 --> 41:23.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we can't let that happen.
[41:23.080 --> 41:27.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's something that I think we're definitely threatened with right now.
[41:27.760 --> 41:36.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, there's so many parts of the behavioral part of what people would be doing, like how people would interact.
[41:36.600 --> 41:41.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are many other telltale signs of people.
[41:41.520 --> 41:43.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's the sick part of this.
[41:43.880 --> 41:57.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: The embroiling a technology like encryption in this is somehow going to rationalize not looking at the actual weapons and the actual other social ills involved.
[41:57.720 --> 41:57.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[41:58.280 --> 42:00.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: The access to weapons and so on and so forth.
[42:00.780 --> 42:09.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like they really are doing a disservice to the actual event that happened a couple weeks ago and the many events I think that we've been speaking about.
[42:12.000 --> 42:17.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because it's completely separate.
[42:17.260 --> 42:25.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like you could use no technology at all and have this huge massacre and people would still be talking about let's dismantle any kind of encryption scheme.
[42:26.320 --> 42:27.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's baseless.
[42:27.260 --> 42:31.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: It has no relation to the actual problem that we're looking at.
[42:31.680 --> 42:32.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like I said...
[42:32.180 --> 42:34.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: And yet it's being dragged in, kicking and screaming as I said.
[42:34.260 --> 42:35.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's an opportunity.
[42:35.120 --> 42:38.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's an opportunity for people in charge to get more power.
[42:38.240 --> 42:39.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: So they will take that.
[42:39.280 --> 42:39.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, right.
[42:39.860 --> 42:40.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[42:40.420 --> 42:44.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's exactly what it is because when something terrible happens, people are afraid.
[42:44.300 --> 42:48.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when people are afraid, they're looking for, okay, what's the thing we can change right now to make this not happen anymore?
[42:48.700 --> 42:52.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: What can we, you know, what's the simple easy thing that we could do to switch off the bad?
[42:52.680 --> 42:57.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's the perfect time for things like the PATRIOT Act, things like really stupid things to get pushed through.
[42:57.900 --> 43:02.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, it behooves us to be aware of this and try and prevent it.
[43:02.380 --> 43:03.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[43:03.780 --> 43:07.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Continuing, though, with this story, and I know we had a bunch of phone calls come in.
[43:07.380 --> 43:11.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Please call back if you get disconnected, 718-780-8888.
[43:11.380 --> 43:12.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll take calls in just a moment.
[43:12.860 --> 43:24.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: But apparently the whole move over there to ban free Wi-Fi comes from a police opinion that it's apparently difficult to track individuals who use public Wi-Fi networks.
[43:24.700 --> 43:26.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know what?
[43:26.380 --> 43:27.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Life is difficult.
[43:27.360 --> 43:28.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are challenges.
[43:28.080 --> 43:33.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can't take away things that are used for so many different purposes.
[43:33.760 --> 43:41.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can't just dismantle democracy and freedom of assembly and freedom of speech just because it's more convenient.
[43:41.780 --> 43:55.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, as for Tor, Tor being a network of servers maintained by volunteers, routes a user's traffic through several different points, obfuscating their original, perhaps identifying IP address, that is something that is definitely under threat in France.
[43:55.940 --> 44:03.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's something that we have to keep an eye on and defend because you get rid of something like that.
[44:03.360 --> 44:07.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you're basically saying that anonymity in any form is the threat, is the problem.
[44:07.820 --> 44:11.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And as soon as you start saying things anonymously, you become tantamount to a terrorist.
[44:12.080 --> 44:12.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: So let's be clear.
[44:12.860 --> 44:16.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's two ways France could go about banning Tor.
[44:16.200 --> 44:20.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: One is to pass a law against it, which will have no effect, right?
[44:20.040 --> 44:24.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because if you're willing to murder dozens of people, you're also willing to break the law that says how you can communicate.
[44:24.600 --> 44:27.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: So that's silly.
[44:28.540 --> 44:31.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: It will only affect, you know, people who are law abiding.
[44:33.000 --> 44:36.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: The other thing they could do is try and technically block it.
[44:36.260 --> 44:46.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: And in order to do that, you have to build a massive network of state controlled computers that control what people can and cannot access on the Internet.
[44:46.780 --> 44:56.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: The only country to successfully pull this off is China with the so-called Great Firewall of China, which has made it really hard to browse the web anonymously in China.
[44:56.600 --> 45:03.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: If France wants that kind of surveillance and control apparatus, then the terrorists have indeed won.
[45:03.880 --> 45:05.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, there's nothing else to say.
[45:06.380 --> 45:06.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel?
[45:07.140 --> 45:08.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, go ahead, Bernie, and then we'll start taking phone calls.
[45:09.880 --> 45:23.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: What Rob just said about this being used to make people afraid and using this as an excuse to take away people's rights.
[45:23.900 --> 45:39.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this, you know, I hate to bring up the Nazi analogy, but Joseph Goebbels, the minister of propaganda during the Third Reich, he said, and I'm going to paraphrase him now, you know, all you have to do is make people afraid and they'll let you do whatever you want to make them feel safer.
[45:39.780 --> 45:43.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this is exactly what our own government is doing right now.
[45:44.800 --> 45:46.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, it's really sad.
[45:46.700 --> 45:48.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: But again, it's not just our government.
[45:48.720 --> 45:50.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, it's people not in the government.
[45:50.380 --> 45:53.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: And as people in other countries, it's, it's a global phenomenon.
[45:53.980 --> 45:55.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a, it's a very dangerous one.
[45:55.560 --> 45:59.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, look at the elections just, uh, uh, this weekend in France, the national front.
[46:00.060 --> 46:00.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[46:00.520 --> 46:01.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Most powerful party now.
[46:02.180 --> 46:04.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whoever would have thought that would be the case.
[46:04.540 --> 46:06.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, uh, we're going down some very dark roads.
[46:06.920 --> 46:15.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in fact, you know, if you, if you want to say that, uh, ISIS is, is controlling people, they're controlling those people a lot more than anyone in the Muslim community.
[46:15.220 --> 46:16.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's something to think about.
[46:16.340 --> 46:18.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's start taking some phone calls so our listeners can chime in here.
[46:18.960 --> 46:21.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: 718-780-8888.
[46:21.940 --> 46:22.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And good evening.
[46:22.720 --> 46:23.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the radio.
[46:23.820 --> 46:24.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: How are you doing?
[46:24.560 --> 46:25.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[46:25.440 --> 46:26.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm just lower on my radio.
[46:26.260 --> 46:26.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes, please.
[46:26.660 --> 46:30.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, I want to just talk for a second about something that you spoke about at the very start.
[46:30.960 --> 46:33.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you're, you're dealing with your credit card company.
[46:33.620 --> 46:33.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh boy.
[46:33.900 --> 46:52.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: When, uh, when I have disputes with companies now, you know, whenever you call them, pretty much any company you call gives you a, uh, recording before you get the, uh, representative that says, uh, um, this call may be recorded for training and, uh, what's it?
[46:52.300 --> 46:55.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Training, uh, quality control, quality purposes.
[46:55.020 --> 47:02.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I say to them, look, okay, we've got, I've had two times this year, I've had disagreements with companies about billing.
[47:03.380 --> 47:06.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I honestly thought like I'm being screwed here.
[47:06.220 --> 47:12.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I said, look, I, I got a, uh, supervisor and said, don't take my word for it.
[47:12.980 --> 47:16.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Get the, get the recording, whether it's a tape or it's digital.
[47:17.480 --> 47:23.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the answer both times I got was, well, you see, uh, sir, it's, it's not that simple.
[47:24.040 --> 47:25.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I go, that's okay.
[47:25.560 --> 47:33.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: Take a week, take two weeks, take two weeks, get the recording, listen to it and contact me.
[47:33.260 --> 47:38.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: And once you say that to them, it's incredible, it's incredible what happens.
[47:38.760 --> 47:53.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I just thought, and by the way, can I just also mention, uh, the IRS requires, uh, all taxpayers and banks to keep records of all transactions for, I believe it's seven years.
[47:53.120 --> 47:53.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[47:53.620 --> 47:58.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, you're supposed to hold on to every receipt in case you're audited.
[47:58.960 --> 48:01.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they say it's a minimum of seven years.
[48:01.400 --> 48:02.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[48:02.200 --> 48:03.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I know for sure they have the info.
[48:04.100 --> 48:04.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Come on.
[48:04.580 --> 48:06.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: Don't, don't let him get away with it.
[48:06.300 --> 48:06.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[48:06.500 --> 48:14.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I said to the guy on the phone, uh, so there's nobody there in the entire chase organization that can look up this sale that took place in January.
[48:14.560 --> 48:15.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And he said, yes, that's right.
[48:15.800 --> 48:18.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I, you know, at that point you just can't continue with that person anymore.
[48:19.020 --> 48:24.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, but the thing is the person you're talking to has literally never met anyone who's employed by chase.
[48:24.280 --> 48:31.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and this is a deliberate choice on the, on the part of the people who run chase to never let you talk to anyone who works for chase.
[48:31.400 --> 48:48.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, it's not the fault of the person you're talking to, but like, yeah, it's entirely personal, entirely reasonable that the person you're talking to has literally never met anyone who has ever met anyone who has access to this data and is telling you the truth when they say they can't possibly get it for you.
[48:48.740 --> 48:51.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's not the same thing as the data doesn't exist.
[48:51.380 --> 48:59.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, so what I, what I like to do in these situations when, uh, when you're on some important issue and you call them up and they say that this call may be recorded.
[48:59.640 --> 49:00.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: I like to take that as permission.
[49:01.020 --> 49:01.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, it may be.
[49:01.660 --> 49:01.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you.
[49:02.080 --> 49:06.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I record the call and then I have what it would take them however many weeks to get hold of.
[49:06.100 --> 49:08.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I can play them back the edited highlights if I need to call them back.
[49:08.800 --> 49:09.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, Rob, you don't need permission.
[49:10.120 --> 49:11.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: In New York you can record.
[49:11.440 --> 49:11.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: In New York you don't.
[49:11.800 --> 49:14.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: As long as you know about it and you're doing it, you can, you can record a phone call.
[49:18.960 --> 49:19.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh huh.
[49:19.640 --> 49:25.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, which tells you state by state, uh, what the laws are like by you, uh, as regards to recording telephone conversations.
[49:25.200 --> 49:27.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernie, I don't think you are in the one party state, are you?
[49:27.540 --> 49:30.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, Pennsylvania is a two party state.
[49:30.360 --> 49:34.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: So are you, both, both people on the call have to be made aware of the recording.
[49:34.720 --> 49:35.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: That doesn't mean they have to give consent.
[49:36.300 --> 49:37.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: They just need to be advised.
[49:37.880 --> 49:43.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I found with these companies, if you tell them I'm recording this call, just say, well, we can't talk to you and they hang up.
[49:43.520 --> 49:43.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um.
[49:44.100 --> 49:45.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernie, can I, can I ask you a question?
[49:46.000 --> 49:48.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, now you're, um, it's a legal maneuver question.
[49:48.740 --> 49:50.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, you're in a two party state.
[49:50.820 --> 49:51.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what they refer to it as?
[49:52.180 --> 49:52.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[49:52.980 --> 50:02.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: So if you call a friend on three way and then call this, this organization and the two of you know about it, is it not two parties, you know, being able to verify this?
[50:02.900 --> 50:04.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have a great question.
[50:04.440 --> 50:05.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have long wondered that.
[50:05.700 --> 50:07.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: It has never been tested in the courts to my knowledge.
[50:08.420 --> 50:18.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, neither has the, uh, what our caller just said when the, uh, when there are companies play a, uh, a gritty message saying your call may be recorded for quality control and training purposes.
[50:19.120 --> 50:21.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: To me, that sounds like permission.
[50:21.200 --> 50:22.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Your call may be recorded.
[50:22.620 --> 50:23.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I may record it.
[50:23.940 --> 50:31.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I don't know if that has ever been tested in the court of law, but I sure would like somebody to try testing it in the court of law because that would, that would be a breakthrough.
[50:31.840 --> 50:32.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: I like my idea better.
[50:32.980 --> 50:34.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: But anyway, let's, uh, let's take another phone call.
[50:34.800 --> 50:37.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: 718-780-8888.
[50:37.380 --> 50:37.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[50:37.840 --> 50:38.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[50:39.500 --> 50:39.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hi.
[50:39.900 --> 50:40.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[50:40.480 --> 50:40.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[50:40.720 --> 50:41.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's on your mind?
[50:41.680 --> 50:43.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, I was listening to you guys earlier.
[50:44.020 --> 50:47.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Again, I called last week, but again, I think I might become a regular caller.
[50:47.860 --> 50:48.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Great show.
[50:48.580 --> 50:48.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you.
[50:49.140 --> 50:56.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, I, I can't remember which one of you guys it was that said it, but that was a brilliant and beautiful point.
[50:56.360 --> 50:57.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it was well made.
[50:57.340 --> 51:06.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: You guys were talking about, um, them wanting to, as far as the encryption and then wanting to close, like, uh, tighten up the Internet, whatever that means.
[51:07.260 --> 51:07.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh huh.
[51:07.860 --> 51:20.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, and somebody brought up the point about Hillary Clinton, where actually, this was an issue that I guess, I don't know, if you look at the teams, I guess everybody's forgotten about it, but she was just being questioned about why she can't, uh, use,
[51:20.380 --> 51:23.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: uh, her email server through the government.
[51:23.420 --> 51:26.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: I had to have a private email that nobody else had access to.
[51:27.420 --> 51:31.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, um, the hypocrisy that goes on when they talk about things like that.
[51:31.080 --> 51:41.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, I've heard it said before in political discussions, and they tried to, to denounce, uh, you know, maybe like Russia or something like that back in the day, or even China.
[51:42.680 --> 51:51.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: And one of the things that they talk about, like human rights violations, because, uh, residents or, or citizens of those countries don't have open access to the Internet.
[51:52.260 --> 51:58.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, and then now all of a sudden we're talking about shutting it down as if that's something that, that, that would be a good thing.
[51:59.020 --> 52:08.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, the way that, that, that things just kind of flip on a dime and, and the way that they, they express things and say things nowadays, the hypocrisy that's in it and people just lapped up.
[52:08.580 --> 52:12.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Nobody questions anything anymore and even asks, does that even make sense?
[52:12.780 --> 52:16.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, and there's even like a, a kind of tone that like nowadays you watch things.
[52:16.720 --> 52:18.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's almost like a, you hear one word.
[52:18.820 --> 52:28.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: And like now when something hits the newspaper, I see something and I'm waiting, like I can almost anticipate what's going to be on the headlines, uh, two or three days later.
[52:28.380 --> 52:31.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Cause it almost seems like everything is being set up for an action that comes later on.
[52:32.200 --> 52:32.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, sorry.
[52:32.740 --> 52:35.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: You say, uh, nobody questions, uh, things anymore.
[52:36.380 --> 52:37.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I agree.
[52:37.160 --> 52:40.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, people aren't questioning, not nearly enough, but this is nothing new.
[52:40.520 --> 52:47.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: People have been, uh, manipulated like this for as long as, as, as, as people have been around, you know?
[52:47.720 --> 52:48.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it's funny too.
[52:48.880 --> 52:54.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Cause you know, not to make a movie reference, but you, you watch things back in the day, you know, I don't know, some kind of thriller or something like that.
[52:55.000 --> 52:58.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it's like, that's a conspiracy theory that come on now that could never happen.
[52:58.980 --> 53:08.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: And you, it's almost like, you know, like I used to have a, uh, a literature teacher used to say that, um, film and, and, and art is really just a depiction of life.
[53:08.700 --> 53:12.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, well, if it hasn't happened yet, it's something that's coming, you know?
[53:12.820 --> 53:13.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it's weird.
[53:13.740 --> 53:15.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: Not, uh, and not to get off topic.
[53:15.980 --> 53:18.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Last week, somebody made a reference to True Romance.
[53:19.160 --> 53:20.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a great movie.
[53:20.440 --> 53:21.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: What was wrong with True Romance?
[53:21.800 --> 53:23.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: I thought it was a beautiful movie.
[53:23.040 --> 53:23.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[53:23.720 --> 53:25.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not going to get into that, but, uh.
[53:25.320 --> 53:26.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Anyway, but you guys have a good night.
[53:26.940 --> 53:27.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Great, great show.
[53:27.800 --> 53:28.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Great show.
[53:28.240 --> 53:28.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for your call.
[53:29.140 --> 53:29.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks.
[53:29.820 --> 53:33.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, our phone number is 718-780-8888.
[53:33.660 --> 53:36.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have any thoughts on the threat of encryption.
[53:36.420 --> 53:38.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to know, to people out there, do you use encryption?
[53:38.620 --> 53:39.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Would you like to use encryption?
[53:40.060 --> 53:41.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it something that scares you?
[53:41.240 --> 53:44.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it something that you think is a, is a threat to our way of life?
[53:44.300 --> 53:48.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it something that you fear, uh, its absence will be a threat to our way of life?
[53:49.040 --> 53:50.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: 718-780-8888.
[53:51.040 --> 53:51.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mike?
[53:51.320 --> 54:04.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice, but I took the opportunity to look up the section of the Pennsylvania code, and it, uh, the code itself states that all parties to the communication have to give prior consent.
[54:04.260 --> 54:07.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ah, so you're an all-party state, Bernie, not a two-party state.
[54:07.160 --> 54:08.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, not just two.
[54:08.380 --> 54:08.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[54:09.000 --> 54:09.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: But all.
[54:09.780 --> 54:09.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[54:09.920 --> 54:17.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, does that mean, I'm sorry, does that mean if somebody is eavesdropping on the conversation, that they have to be aware if it's being wiretapped at the same time?
[54:17.860 --> 54:21.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: I am not a lawyer and do not wish to provide any further legal advice.
[54:21.220 --> 54:25.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can be a real pain in the ass in the courtroom, but, um, uh, go ahead, Bernie, you were making a point.
[54:25.600 --> 54:37.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was gonna say, I think, I, uh, I'm not looking at the statute either, but I've read case law on this, and it means that they, they must be aware that the conversation is being recorded, not necessarily consent to it.
[54:38.300 --> 54:40.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, they can always shut their mouth or walk away.
[54:40.880 --> 54:49.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: That was, I've been advised by multiple attorneys on that, but maybe the, maybe what is in a statute may be a little bit different than what case law has decided since.
[54:50.380 --> 54:50.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[54:50.820 --> 54:51.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's take another phone call.
[54:51.680 --> 54:53.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: 718-780-8888.
[54:53.960 --> 54:54.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[54:54.360 --> 54:54.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[54:55.520 --> 54:56.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, that's a tone.
[54:56.580 --> 54:58.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's get rid of that and go over here.
[54:58.700 --> 54:59.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[54:59.280 --> 55:00.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[55:00.680 --> 55:01.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, how you doing?
[55:01.760 --> 55:02.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[55:02.640 --> 55:03.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, uh, just a quick thing.
[55:04.040 --> 55:12.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just saw on the French news that when they raided those mosques, they actually found ammunition in the mosque and ISIS, IS literature.
[55:12.980 --> 55:22.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And my question is this, we see what's going on with Trump, the far right, just one in France, the dude who, uh, is in head of Pegida in Germany looks exactly like Hitler.
[55:22.380 --> 55:23.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: He even has the mustache.
[55:23.880 --> 55:30.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you Google the picture and I'm saying, if you put the pieces together, um, it's pretty frightening.
[55:31.320 --> 55:37.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I, I, I'm just wondering if you guys, I mean, have you heard that they actually found, I'm not making this up.
[55:37.240 --> 55:40.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: They found ammunition in the mosques and in France.
[55:40.940 --> 55:42.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I haven't heard that myself, uh, Kyle.
[55:43.200 --> 55:44.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, just two things.
[55:44.140 --> 55:51.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think, uh, well, the caller does, um, he's talking about a picture that was taken of the leader of Pegida who was, I don't want to talk about that.
[55:51.380 --> 55:52.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm talking about the mosque.
[55:52.560 --> 55:53.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: They just raided.
[55:53.360 --> 55:53.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[55:53.580 --> 55:54.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we'll get to that.
[55:54.320 --> 55:55.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: You had a point about the Pegida leader.
[55:55.980 --> 55:56.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[55:56.240 --> 56:04.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: We can talk, talk about churches with ammunition too, but anyway, yeah, there was a photo of him taken at like a costume party or I don't even think it was that he was like dressing up for fun.
[56:04.740 --> 56:05.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's pretty scary.
[56:05.800 --> 56:06.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, but it was a costume.
[56:07.120 --> 56:07.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[56:07.680 --> 56:08.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[56:08.220 --> 56:09.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can we talk about the mosque?
[56:09.420 --> 56:10.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: They really, we'll get to it.
[56:10.880 --> 56:11.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: We got two hours.
[56:11.720 --> 56:12.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Calm down.
[56:12.140 --> 56:12.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll get to it.
[56:12.640 --> 56:13.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, okay.
[56:13.120 --> 56:17.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you think, uh, there's been, uh, uh, some kind of raid in a mosque and ammunition was found.
[56:18.060 --> 56:19.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, so here's my point.
[56:19.180 --> 56:19.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[56:19.580 --> 56:19.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[56:20.040 --> 56:20.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[56:20.200 --> 56:26.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: What we see with Trump is going to be Mickey Mouse compared to what we're going to see coming in Europe.
[56:26.300 --> 56:30.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because what happened is they kicked the can down the road 40 years in Europe.
[56:30.440 --> 56:32.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't confront their Muslim problem.
[56:32.680 --> 56:34.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Google Muslims on a bus in France.
[56:34.480 --> 56:36.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is, what is their Muslim problem?
[56:36.720 --> 56:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Google Muslims on a bus in France and you will see the problem.
[56:40.540 --> 56:41.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: They have Muslims on a bus.
[56:42.040 --> 56:44.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is this some kind of film or it's called a 42nd clip.
[56:44.900 --> 56:46.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: It'll show you what you need to know.
[56:46.660 --> 56:49.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: So they have a really bad problem in Europe.
[56:49.380 --> 56:52.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the problem is the, here's, here's my question to you guys.
[56:52.280 --> 56:52.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[56:52.700 --> 56:55.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: What happens to the left in 20 years in Europe?
[56:56.220 --> 56:57.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: What happens to them?
[56:57.380 --> 56:59.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: We already see the French fling to New York City.
[56:59.640 --> 57:01.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you go to the Upper East Side, it's nothing but French people.
[57:02.040 --> 57:02.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're fleeing.
[57:02.860 --> 57:04.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: French are fleeing to New York City.
[57:04.720 --> 57:04.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[57:05.240 --> 57:06.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm learning all kinds of things here.
[57:06.860 --> 57:07.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[57:07.360 --> 57:10.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you go up, see it on the Upper East Side.
[57:10.400 --> 57:16.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: But my point is this, what, hey guys, what, what do you think is going to happen to the gay parades in 20 years in Europe?
[57:16.640 --> 57:18.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: They are in serious trouble.
[57:18.460 --> 57:23.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why you see the Nazis are returning to Europe because the liberals made it happen.
[57:23.880 --> 57:24.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[57:24.440 --> 57:28.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I hadn't thought about gay parades in 20 years in Europe, but now that does give me something to think about.
[57:28.380 --> 57:32.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, before the Nazis came to power, you had the same thing happen in Germany.
[57:32.700 --> 57:35.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: You had the ultra liberalism up.
[57:35.180 --> 57:37.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: You had the, you had that happen.
[57:37.560 --> 57:39.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is exactly what's happening again.
[57:39.480 --> 57:52.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm just concerned that, you know, when you see it happening with Trump, you see it happening in Europe, but Europe is going to be much worse because I'm just saying they, but they, hey, there's a reason why they are finding ammunition in the mosques,
[57:53.040 --> 57:53.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: people.
[57:53.380 --> 57:56.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to admit that there is a problem with, with it.
[57:56.560 --> 57:56.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[57:56.780 --> 57:59.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: We need to stop pretending that there isn't.
[57:59.560 --> 57:59.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[58:00.160 --> 58:01.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you've given us a lot to think about.
[58:01.920 --> 58:02.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[58:02.480 --> 58:02.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway.
[58:02.860 --> 58:04.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for that call.
[58:04.240 --> 58:06.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anybody want to tackle any of these points?
[58:06.840 --> 58:17.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me just say that, you know, when, when people start talking about the Muslim problem, they're very often unaware of things like, you know, a lot of the cops that were in the line of fire were Muslim.
[58:17.480 --> 58:20.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of the people driving ambulances were Muslim.
[58:20.800 --> 58:24.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of people that obviously are the victims are Muslim.
[58:24.940 --> 58:31.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, and, and to say things like that is so ridiculously, uh, over generalized and, um, and misleading, but you know what?
[58:31.980 --> 58:32.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's look into it.
[58:32.740 --> 58:42.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's see if there's any truth to, uh, to the fact, uh, that this caller claims that, uh, mosques are, are, are hoarding ammunition or something in, in, in Paris.
[58:42.380 --> 58:44.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think that's at all what's happening.
[58:45.100 --> 58:53.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I feel like it would be, uh, well, Trump would be reminding us of it constantly if it had happened, but, but I don't know enough about the story to comment meaningfully on it.
[58:54.120 --> 59:01.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, let's remember that like substantially all of the victims of groups like ISIS are in fact Muslims.
[59:02.000 --> 59:10.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, which is why people are fleeing, uh, the Middle East in such large numbers because they want to get away from groups like ISIS.
[59:10.340 --> 59:22.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, to, to say the Muslims as, as one entity that, you know, everyone of this religion believes one thing, uh, makes me suspicious of the rest of the argument.
[59:24.380 --> 59:24.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[59:24.960 --> 59:34.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's, he would, um, maybe come back saying like, well, so far, uh, only, only, um, Muslims really have been affected.
[59:34.100 --> 59:48.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, and there's a lot of prophecies and a lot of people trying to like, you know, get their, um, get their, um, story around what, what is going to occur or, or, or what is happening and what it all means.
[59:48.860 --> 59:50.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, we're all trying to derive meaning.
[59:50.480 --> 59:58.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think the question about the left and, and where we'll all, where we'll be, where we'll fit in, where, um, how that will be.
[59:58.380 --> 01:00:01.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's maybe a good question in there, um, to a degree.
[01:00:01.620 --> 01:00:04.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think that's why a lot of people are raising some of these questions now.
[01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:12.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, so I think definitely the caller is, is asking questions, uh, uh, that we're all sort of going through.
[01:00:12.200 --> 01:00:28.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's exactly why I think, uh, encryption and, and bringing up this, you know, issue of a surrounding politicians wanting to destroy, uh, the ability to encrypt your conversations, uh, is as relevant as everything else.
[01:00:28.100 --> 01:00:29.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, but I, I don't know.
[01:00:29.560 --> 01:00:33.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think you could find as much ammunition in like a church or something.
[01:00:33.580 --> 01:00:34.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know if that seems arbitrary.
[01:00:34.680 --> 01:00:35.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just looked it up.
[01:00:35.420 --> 01:00:37.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why the pain in the ass is loading webpages these days?
[01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:41.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: You ever have this issue where it's just jumping all over the place and there's ads and, and videos playing?
[01:00:41.940 --> 01:00:44.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm trying to read a story and it just keeps moving around.
[01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:46.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: You should install ad block.
[01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:47.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I, you know what?
[01:00:47.380 --> 01:00:47.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[01:00:47.720 --> 01:00:50.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think they, they installed ad plus on this because it's just more and more.
[01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:51.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: It wouldn't surprise me actually.
[01:00:51.620 --> 01:00:53.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: But anyway, it's emblematic of the fear.
[01:00:53.520 --> 01:00:56.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think that's going, well, I want to read what I, what I discovered by, by looking this up.
[01:00:57.140 --> 01:01:08.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Kalashnikov ammunition and Islamist propaganda videos were seized by French police in raids on Sunday after shutting down a mosque in the Paris suburbs linked to the traditionalist Salafist branch of Islam.
[01:01:08.520 --> 01:01:16.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: The prayer hall in the Lagnes-sur-Marne, which is around 18 miles east of Paris, was shut down last Wednesday following a major police operation.
[01:01:16.540 --> 01:01:26.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: During raids linked to the mosque, police found 7.62 millimeter ammunition for a Kalashnikov rifle and propaganda videos for Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, ISIL.
[01:01:27.200 --> 01:01:34.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: According to the prefect, the highest state representative and the locations of the raids were not disclosed.
[01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:42.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's interesting, but as Kyle said, I think you can find things like that in American churches without too much difficulty.
[01:01:43.040 --> 01:01:48.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't, you know, it's one instance and you don't know what the reasoning behind it was.
[01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:52.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Was it one person who was hiding something there?
[01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:57.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ultimately, the caller asked what's going to happen to the left in 20 years?
[01:01:57.160 --> 01:01:58.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's going to happen to gay parades in 20 years?
[01:01:58.580 --> 01:02:03.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: What happens in any social, you know, field in 20 years?
[01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:06.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ultimately, it's up to us now.
[01:02:07.200 --> 01:02:08.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's up to people in that world now.
[01:02:09.180 --> 01:02:12.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: And all we can do is be informed by what happened in the past when we make these decisions.
[01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:21.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it's the incremental changes along the way that really... they are what dictate where we'll arrive as a society.
[01:02:22.060 --> 01:02:26.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, gosh, you can't help but notice the fear.
[01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:30.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this... people want to be right.
[01:02:30.600 --> 01:02:38.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: They want to be certain that they've figured it out or that it is maybe simpler than it really is.
[01:02:38.580 --> 01:02:44.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think that's... there's some caution that needs to be a part of that in your own edification.
[01:02:45.080 --> 01:02:47.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, try not to take everything so seriously.
[01:02:47.880 --> 01:02:48.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:50.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: A fear goes in two directions, too.
[01:02:50.520 --> 01:03:01.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: If people are afraid of a specific group of people, you can't be surprised when that specific group of people starts being afraid of the other people out there, perhaps surrounding their mosque or whatever.
[01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:07.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: In America, this kind of thing, I assume, unless I misunderstand the NRA, would be encouraged.
[01:03:08.380 --> 01:03:15.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mosques should arm themselves and should have all kinds of ammunition to protect them from mosque intruders.
[01:03:15.220 --> 01:03:15.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right?
[01:03:15.740 --> 01:03:17.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's an NRA video, right?
[01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:18.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: About...
[01:03:18.520 --> 01:03:20.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: I must have missed that one.
[01:03:20.740 --> 01:03:20.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:03:21.040 --> 01:03:26.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: If they have any integrity whatsoever, obviously the rules would apply to all American citizens, not just the white ones.
[01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:30.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's probably what we're seeing here.
[01:03:30.800 --> 01:03:34.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And again, this is one instance that the details are very sketchy about.
[01:03:34.820 --> 01:03:44.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, BuzzFeed, of all media entities, did a piece not too long ago where a black woman went to a gun show and reported on how she was made to feel there.
[01:03:44.940 --> 01:03:50.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, some rights are more widely spread than others.
[01:03:50.760 --> 01:04:00.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you want gun control in this country, I made the suggestion on last night's radio show, you get a busload of people dressed up in full Muslim attire and just go target shooting over and over again.
[01:04:00.520 --> 01:04:04.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: And before you know it, white America will be saying, we need gun control in this country.
[01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:07.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what happened in California when...
[01:04:07.340 --> 01:04:08.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it's true.
[01:04:08.860 --> 01:04:15.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: When the Black Panthers marched around with guns, all of a sudden there was a real interest in gun control when there wasn't before.
[01:04:16.160 --> 01:04:17.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just something to consider.
[01:04:17.540 --> 01:04:26.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and look at, like, Jerusalem and these places, they've got these missile defense systems, the Iron Dome, they're testing the Iron Beam this winter, actually, starting in 2016.
[01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:29.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: They'll have lasers coming from planes and stuff.
[01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:30.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, they're...
[01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:31.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's gonna be so much fun!
[01:04:31.940 --> 01:04:32.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, wow!
[01:04:32.480 --> 01:04:37.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: There is no shortage of weaponry involved with religion, so...
[01:04:37.240 --> 01:04:38.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:04:38.620 --> 01:04:41.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, again, you're listening to WBAI New York.
[01:04:41.240 --> 01:04:46.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're tuning in for the personal computer show, be prepared to slam your face against the wall because it's not on this week.
[01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:47.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: It'll be on next week.
[01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:50.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're on for another hour until 9 o'clock.
[01:04:50.820 --> 01:04:55.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, ultimately, and apart from all that, we've got a new Star Wars movie coming as well.
[01:04:55.900 --> 01:05:12.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: But apart from all of that, ultimately, if you're coming at it from a place of peace and tolerance or you're coming at it from a place of frightened xenophobia, yeah, the future is up to you right now and what you can do and what decisions you make and who you put in power and what you allow them to do with that power.
[01:05:13.120 --> 01:05:13.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, yeah.
[01:05:14.680 --> 01:05:16.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Should we continue taking phone calls?
[01:05:16.420 --> 01:05:18.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: That led to a rather interesting discussion.
[01:05:18.040 --> 01:05:22.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a lot more to talk about, but our listeners do need to be heard from occasionally.
[01:05:22.660 --> 01:05:24.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think we should put the phones through their paces.
[01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:28.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've been so without, so maybe it's better that we just talk on the phone with people.
[01:05:28.900 --> 01:05:32.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let me also point out that this is a fundraiser.
[01:05:32.100 --> 01:05:35.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the fundraiser with no name because we've used all four seasons.
[01:05:35.340 --> 01:05:38.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is now December and the winter one takes place in January.
[01:05:39.500 --> 01:05:40.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, yeah.
[01:05:40.540 --> 01:05:46.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you want to support the radio station, support this particular program, please call 212-209-2950.
[01:05:47.520 --> 01:05:52.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have four different premiums available that this program is donating.
[01:05:52.980 --> 01:05:54.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two from Rob T.
[01:05:54.260 --> 01:05:56.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Firefly, who will explain what they are.
[01:05:56.200 --> 01:05:56.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, indeed.
[01:05:57.160 --> 01:05:59.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've done some paintings.
[01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:05.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: On a past fundraiser, I had a set of paintings of luminaries of the hacker world.
[01:06:05.680 --> 01:06:07.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are still a very few left.
[01:06:08.220 --> 01:06:09.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you donate...
[01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:10.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: A few luminaries left or a few paintings?
[01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:12.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: A very few paintings of the luminaries left.
[01:06:13.220 --> 01:06:14.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Most of them were snapped up.
[01:06:14.340 --> 01:06:17.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've heard some very good things from people who've received them and are enjoying them.
[01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:20.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: But yeah, there are a few left.
[01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:27.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you can go to give2wbai.org and look for the Luminaries of the Hacker World painting.
[01:06:27.180 --> 01:06:29.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can get that for a pledge of $50 or more.
[01:06:29.860 --> 01:06:35.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or there's another set of paintings, which I'm going to be doing, which are a set of historical and interesting telephones.
[01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:38.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Also for a pledge of $50.
[01:06:38.580 --> 01:06:39.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you can get that.
[01:06:39.420 --> 01:06:41.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: And these are paintings on canvas.
[01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:53.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can get that for a pledge of $50 or more at give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950 and ask for either the Luminaries of the Hacker World painting or the Historical Telephones painting.
[01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:54.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[01:06:55.200 --> 01:06:57.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, 212-209-2950.
[01:06:57.380 --> 01:07:02.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you want to speak with us on the air, the phone number is 718-780-8888.
[01:07:02.940 --> 01:07:08.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're talking about encryption and governments and fear and other things as well.
[01:07:09.900 --> 01:07:11.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And let's take our first phone call.
[01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:11.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:07:11.660 --> 01:07:12.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[01:07:13.500 --> 01:07:14.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's that tone again.
[01:07:14.900 --> 01:07:16.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow, that tone keeps going back.
[01:07:16.180 --> 01:07:16.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:17.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:18.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:19.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hey, guys.
[01:07:19.540 --> 01:07:20.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: I love the show.
[01:07:20.380 --> 01:07:20.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks.
[01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:28.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, truthfully, I'm kind of with you guys with the security issues and all, but I just don't think...
[01:07:28.180 --> 01:07:36.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think by now we realize that people, or the vast majority of them, don't really care so much.
[01:07:36.740 --> 01:07:39.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: We've gotten used to, you know, the cameras coming up.
[01:07:40.340 --> 01:07:42.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: No one's really complaining about the cameras.
[01:07:42.820 --> 01:07:42.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:43.120 --> 01:07:46.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: And all the other facets of life where we're just monitored.
[01:07:47.220 --> 01:07:53.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, for the most part, I think people just really think, I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't have to worry.
[01:07:53.500 --> 01:07:54.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think you're right.
[01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:58.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, whenever things like this happen, you hear a clamor for cameras.
[01:07:58.700 --> 01:07:59.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where's the video footage?
[01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:01.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where's our protection for our community?
[01:08:01.660 --> 01:08:02.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[01:08:02.020 --> 01:08:03.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: We need more surveillance.
[01:08:03.500 --> 01:08:04.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, yeah...
[01:08:04.140 --> 01:08:05.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: We want them on police offices now.
[01:08:06.100 --> 01:08:06.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, we just...
[01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:11.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: We really want, you know, complete coverage of, you know, monitoring everywhere.
[01:08:11.820 --> 01:08:12.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[01:08:12.420 --> 01:08:21.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's interesting you should say that because, yes, that's an argument from a completely different perspective, but, yeah, it is another form of surveillance, so...
[01:08:21.900 --> 01:08:24.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, that, I mean, that's going to come back to bite.
[01:08:24.880 --> 01:08:26.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think all these...
[01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:42.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: We want the body cams to protect us against the offices, but I think in more and more cases they're going to do more harm than good and pretty much show a lot of these instances, you know, the before and the after.
[01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:52.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, you know, people take an iPhone picture of just the action and we're missing what's going on before, and I think that's going to change a lot of people's minds.
[01:08:52.320 --> 01:09:09.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think, in a way, these cameras are going to help the police officers in their case, in many instances, where if we just caught a picture of the action of the police officer shooting the perpetrator, it looks like the police officer is wrong.
[01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:14.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: But if we see what's going on before, sometimes I think we could be swayed.
[01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:19.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: So I think these body cams are not going to be for the purpose that we...
[01:09:19.820 --> 01:09:24.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they'll just be monitoring, you know, as they're walking around, they'll just have...
[01:09:24.560 --> 01:09:26.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, it's just another form of monitoring.
[01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:29.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, imagine it's automated.
[01:09:30.040 --> 01:09:32.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Imagine the body cam is telling the police officer what to do.
[01:09:33.160 --> 01:09:36.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Imagine they can't, you know, make a judgment call.
[01:09:37.280 --> 01:09:46.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Imagine they can't make a judgment call anymore because there are systems telling them they must pursue such and such person, just like they get dispatched to go to another crime scene.
[01:09:47.820 --> 01:09:54.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's amazing things that are possible when you start making things wireless and putting cameras and all kinds of features into them.
[01:09:55.320 --> 01:09:55.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[01:09:55.620 --> 01:10:00.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: You begin with the basic technology of the video footage, you know, then you add to that.
[01:10:00.440 --> 01:10:03.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: As time goes along, you know, we should add this feature, that feature.
[01:10:03.300 --> 01:10:04.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: I guess...
[01:10:04.820 --> 01:10:14.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, but I just think... I just don't think it's... you know, we can cry about it, but the American public, the vast majority of them really mind being monitored.
[01:10:16.220 --> 01:10:17.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that's what it comes down to.
[01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:25.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: If they did, I mean, they've had plenty of instances in the past where we could have complained, you know, more and more cameras go up and no one seems to care.
[01:10:27.040 --> 01:10:36.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, the NSA comes out and, you know, there's a little uproar from the select community, but most people really didn't care.
[01:10:36.820 --> 01:10:47.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it's about... it's really about who... be very, very mindful and very careful about who actually you're looking to to provide you that safety, that security.
[01:10:47.800 --> 01:10:49.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you're fearful, that's fine.
[01:10:49.280 --> 01:10:55.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: But don't impose it on other people that perhaps, you know, have maybe taken their security into their own hands and a little...
[01:10:55.520 --> 01:10:59.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: and are a little bit more serious, or maybe they're not, they just have a different understanding of the world.
[01:11:00.080 --> 01:11:12.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I think it's absolutely... it's crucial to not just go running towards a particular company or a particular politician to be able to fix the overarching sort of fear that is being thrown about.
[01:11:12.680 --> 01:11:22.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: You really... you have to be mindful of the technologies and services you use and build the kinds of procedures and stuff you want to keep you safe and educate yourself.
[01:11:22.820 --> 01:11:24.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, thanks very much for that call.
[01:11:24.540 --> 01:11:25.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to move on.
[01:11:25.420 --> 01:11:31.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Before we move on to the next call though, I did type in Muslims on a bus, as that caller suggested that we do.
[01:11:31.480 --> 01:11:46.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what I saw on YouTube was a video from 2008, according to the timestamp on it, of a bunch of people on a... looks like a bus, might be a tram, I'm not really sure, apparently getting into some kind of altercation.
[01:11:46.580 --> 01:11:49.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And maybe they're Muslim, maybe then, it's hard to say, really.
[01:11:49.860 --> 01:11:53.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've seen videos like this before with all groups of people ever.
[01:11:54.020 --> 01:12:06.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the thing that I find interesting about this, I do suggest people type Muslims on a bus and go to YouTube, and maybe not look at the videos so much, because you've probably seen things like this before, and I'm sure there's not that much that you'll learn.
[01:12:06.360 --> 01:12:07.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: But read the comments.
[01:12:07.820 --> 01:12:11.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Read the comments about what people say we should do about the Muslims.
[01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:13.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: That is where you'll really get an education.
[01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:16.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Have you not learned, Emmanuel?
[01:12:16.480 --> 01:12:17.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Have you not been on the Internet before?
[01:12:18.480 --> 01:12:20.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Don't read the comments on the Internet.
[01:12:20.540 --> 01:12:25.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I think, Mike, in this case, I think this makes the point that that caller was trying not to make.
[01:12:25.580 --> 01:12:25.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Alright?
[01:12:26.020 --> 01:12:27.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think people need to see that.
[01:12:27.500 --> 01:12:32.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're encouraging our audience to read not just Internet comments, but YouTube comments?
[01:12:33.040 --> 01:12:33.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay.
[01:12:33.580 --> 01:12:40.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: The alternative is that they just type Muslims on a bus and reach the same conclusion based on some close-minded people.
[01:12:40.500 --> 01:12:42.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I think, you know, look at what they have to say.
[01:12:43.140 --> 01:12:47.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Again, letting people speak is the best way to win an argument.
[01:12:47.460 --> 01:12:48.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, let's take another phone call.
[01:12:49.120 --> 01:12:49.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:12:49.620 --> 01:12:50.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on Off The Hook.
[01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:54.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I just have two quick things to say.
[01:12:54.240 --> 01:13:00.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Number one, if you go to jebbush.com, someone hacked a domain name server and it points to donaldtrump.com.
[01:13:01.200 --> 01:13:02.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, wow.
[01:13:02.200 --> 01:13:04.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just did it about 15 minutes ago.
[01:13:05.120 --> 01:13:10.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Second thing is, if you guys don't pick up the phone, it goes to the station manager's voicemail.
[01:13:10.780 --> 01:13:11.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: How about that?
[01:13:12.320 --> 01:13:14.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make sure you leave a message.
[01:13:14.540 --> 01:13:16.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Make sure you leave a nice message.
[01:13:16.800 --> 01:13:17.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's so funny.
[01:13:18.020 --> 01:13:19.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll do it again.
[01:13:19.300 --> 01:13:19.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[01:13:19.540 --> 01:13:19.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for that.
[01:13:20.040 --> 01:13:20.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.
[01:13:21.140 --> 01:13:21.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, thanks guys.
[01:13:22.140 --> 01:13:22.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Take care.
[01:13:22.540 --> 01:13:24.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have a full switchboard, too, on my point.
[01:13:24.580 --> 01:13:26.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: I almost feel like letting them all go.
[01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:26.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:13:27.100 --> 01:13:28.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I just checked out that webpage.
[01:13:28.320 --> 01:13:28.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's right.
[01:13:28.780 --> 01:13:29.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: It does go to donaldtrump.com.
[01:13:30.140 --> 01:13:31.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that is not Jeb Bush's website.
[01:13:32.080 --> 01:13:33.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it sure sounds like it to me.
[01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:36.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jebbush.com, it goes to donaldjtrump.com.
[01:13:36.540 --> 01:13:37.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why is it not his website?
[01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:44.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know, but if you wish to get to Jeb Bush's website and see this terrible logo that they've designed, it's on jebb2016.com.
[01:13:45.320 --> 01:13:49.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, but what tells you that that is his website and jebbush.com is not his website?
[01:13:49.440 --> 01:13:50.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's telling you that?
[01:13:50.240 --> 01:13:52.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wrote Jeb Bush into a search engine.
[01:13:52.780 --> 01:13:55.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the search engine, you believe the search engine over our callers?
[01:13:56.100 --> 01:13:56.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, I do.
[01:13:56.780 --> 01:13:58.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sorry, caller.
[01:13:58.240 --> 01:14:01.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think jebbush.com is his site, and I think his site got hacked.
[01:14:01.240 --> 01:14:06.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can read the who is if you are on a full-size computer and can do more research than I can do right now.
[01:14:06.760 --> 01:14:11.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: I believe that, yeah, the page ranking maybe is why he chose it, but it's interesting.
[01:14:12.040 --> 01:14:15.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's probably one is a campaign site and one is maybe his domain.
[01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:20.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: I suspect it is not his website at all, but I don't have the time to do the research.
[01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:24.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's got his damn name in it, and if I took that site, I'll bet I'd be getting a lawyer calling me saying give it back.
[01:14:25.340 --> 01:14:26.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what I think is happening.
[01:14:26.240 --> 01:14:28.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have free speech in this country still sometimes, Emmanuel.
[01:14:29.080 --> 01:14:33.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: We also have a caller who's been hiding or hanging out on our phone line for a few minutes.
[01:14:34.040 --> 01:14:34.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:14:34.380 --> 01:14:34.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[01:14:35.660 --> 01:14:36.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, how you doing?
[01:14:36.400 --> 01:14:37.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sorry about all that banter there.
[01:14:37.960 --> 01:14:38.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[01:14:38.340 --> 01:14:38.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's all right.
[01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:40.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: You guys have a great show.
[01:14:40.620 --> 01:14:45.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, real quick about, you know, if you say something often enough, it becomes the truth.
[01:14:45.120 --> 01:14:46.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're saying, oh, Muslims are terrorists.
[01:14:47.080 --> 01:14:48.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of it is false flags.
[01:14:48.740 --> 01:14:51.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you look at, like the guy was saying about finding guns in a mustard over there.
[01:14:52.540 --> 01:14:54.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you look at California, there were three shooters.
[01:14:55.240 --> 01:14:59.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you look, if you Google it, he's going to turn to Google, sorry.
[01:14:59.960 --> 01:15:02.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you look up online, there were three shooters.
[01:15:02.860 --> 01:15:04.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But why are they only talking about two?
[01:15:04.260 --> 01:15:07.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm surprised that no one on WBAI, you know, commented on that.
[01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:09.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can look that up.
[01:15:09.940 --> 01:15:11.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: What tells you there were three shooters?
[01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:14.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I know they were saying that at the beginning, but is there evidence that there was a third?
[01:15:15.460 --> 01:15:19.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, because the original witnesses, I just happened to have the TV on at that time.
[01:15:20.260 --> 01:15:23.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And all the witnesses kept saying there were three shooters, three shooters.
[01:15:23.560 --> 01:15:26.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a little bit later, all of a sudden, it didn't talk about the third shooters.
[01:15:26.760 --> 01:15:29.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that does tend to happen on breaking stories.
[01:15:29.220 --> 01:15:30.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: They tend to get it wrong.
[01:15:30.180 --> 01:15:33.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Usually, you know, school shootings, they say there's multiple and it turns out to be just one.
[01:15:33.840 --> 01:15:37.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: These things do have a habit of changing over time.
[01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:38.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, true.
[01:15:38.140 --> 01:15:41.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I always go by the original, what the original people are saying right there.
[01:15:42.900 --> 01:15:47.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I just kind of find it interesting that all of a sudden, there's two shooters.
[01:15:47.260 --> 01:15:48.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're saying, oh, they found all this stuff.
[01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:51.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure if you walk in, they were full boxes.
[01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:56.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you walk out with boxes, you can just say, oh, you know, that stuff was in there already.
[01:15:57.300 --> 01:16:01.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then also, sometimes you see other things that you always question.
[01:16:01.160 --> 01:16:03.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't make sense or you figure out later.
[01:16:03.380 --> 01:16:07.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I used to hear stories about, oh, the Muslims, they're celebrating all around the world.
[01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:09.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I never understood that story.
[01:16:09.280 --> 01:16:10.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then someone said, look up.
[01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:11.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:12.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: People are dancing Israelis.
[01:16:13.120 --> 01:16:14.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, well, I looked that up.
[01:16:14.940 --> 01:16:15.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[01:16:15.300 --> 01:16:16.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty much what that is.
[01:16:16.420 --> 01:16:22.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: They show that people were from Israel, from the agency.
[01:16:22.700 --> 01:16:28.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they went there on the Jersey side to film the first planes that were going to hit.
[01:16:29.120 --> 01:16:32.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then they were jumping up and down because they saw it.
[01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:33.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And someone called the cops.
[01:16:34.020 --> 01:16:37.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then when the cops showed up, you know, that's who was jumping up and down.
[01:16:37.060 --> 01:16:37.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay.
[01:16:37.640 --> 01:16:38.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're right about that.
[01:16:38.620 --> 01:16:49.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's funny that none of the media has latched on that because you can look it up and you can see news stories written about people who were working for the Israeli secret service who were acting suspiciously.
[01:16:49.620 --> 01:16:54.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think there was a report they were jumping up and down and celebrating the planes hitting.
[01:16:55.080 --> 01:16:56.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: But they were suspicious.
[01:16:56.840 --> 01:16:57.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: They were taken into custody.
[01:16:57.800 --> 01:17:02.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then they were let go when they found out that they were working for the Israeli government.
[01:17:02.160 --> 01:17:10.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that is what Trump seems to be remembering when he says that there are thousands of Muslims jumping up and down on the shores of New Jersey celebrating.
[01:17:10.900 --> 01:17:13.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the closest thing to that that you can find.
[01:17:13.320 --> 01:17:16.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's weird that none of the press has picked up on that and is reporting that.
[01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:22.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: The other thing that he's confusing it with are those pictures of Palestinians celebrating on September 11th.
[01:17:22.300 --> 01:17:25.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: But again, there was no context at the time as to what it was they were celebrating.
[01:17:25.760 --> 01:17:27.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was maybe 20 people total.
[01:17:27.740 --> 01:17:30.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that got shown over and over and over again.
[01:17:30.080 --> 01:17:32.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You did not see the footage of Yasser Arafat giving blood though.
[01:17:32.840 --> 01:17:34.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: You only saw that maybe once.
[01:17:34.160 --> 01:17:35.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then that was never shown again.
[01:17:36.060 --> 01:17:42.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Also, when watching something like a YouTube video and looking at the title, consider that the uploader can write whatever they want in there.
[01:17:42.340 --> 01:17:47.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can upload a video and call it dancing Muslims or singing Israelis or, you know, jumping Martians or whatever.
[01:17:47.020 --> 01:17:48.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't make the title automatically true.
[01:17:49.180 --> 01:17:50.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: What if we all did that?
[01:17:50.780 --> 01:17:52.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: It would definitely...
[01:17:52.620 --> 01:17:54.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: The subject would lose a lot of meaning.
[01:17:54.300 --> 01:17:55.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for that call.
[01:17:55.180 --> 01:17:55.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to move on.
[01:17:56.140 --> 01:17:56.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:17:56.700 --> 01:17:57.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[01:17:58.460 --> 01:17:58.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[01:17:59.260 --> 01:17:59.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, how you doing?
[01:18:00.080 --> 01:18:00.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[01:18:01.280 --> 01:18:01.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just...
[01:18:01.640 --> 01:18:02.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you hear me?
[01:18:02.420 --> 01:18:03.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, we hear you fine.
[01:18:03.240 --> 01:18:04.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, just two quick things.
[01:18:05.060 --> 01:18:08.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: The shooter in California, she had a baby shower.
[01:18:08.280 --> 01:18:10.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: The victims threw her a baby shower.
[01:18:10.300 --> 01:18:10.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[01:18:10.580 --> 01:18:13.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And she was wearing a body camera when she executed them.
[01:18:13.460 --> 01:18:16.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were both wearing body cameras, but I wanted to call you back about...
[01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:17.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[01:18:17.680 --> 01:18:18.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: What?
[01:18:18.180 --> 01:18:19.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: They were wearing body cameras?
[01:18:19.580 --> 01:18:21.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they were both wearing body cameras.
[01:18:21.060 --> 01:18:23.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: How have you heard this, and how have we not heard this at all?
[01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:26.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were going to post the videos.
[01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:27.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's common.
[01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:28.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: But here's my point.
[01:18:28.860 --> 01:18:30.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you the YouTube guy again?
[01:18:30.460 --> 01:18:31.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you the Muslims on a Bus guy again?
[01:18:32.060 --> 01:18:34.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Listen, because you mentioned the bus video.
[01:18:34.520 --> 01:18:36.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Listen, they're reciting scripture.
[01:18:36.940 --> 01:18:38.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're calling for the murder of Jews.
[01:18:39.180 --> 01:18:41.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I guess that makes the whole religion invalid then.
[01:18:42.060 --> 01:18:42.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks.
[01:18:42.380 --> 01:18:43.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Listen, one call per caller.
[01:18:44.120 --> 01:18:44.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:18:45.060 --> 01:18:46.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on off the hook.
[01:18:47.160 --> 01:18:47.660]  Oh, God.
[01:18:48.000 --> 01:18:48.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello?
[01:18:48.460 --> 01:18:48.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, go ahead.
[01:18:49.660 --> 01:18:50.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, sorry.
[01:18:51.220 --> 01:18:56.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, as they used to say on Monty Python, and now for something totally different...
[01:18:56.000 --> 01:18:56.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Please.
[01:18:56.820 --> 01:19:07.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just wanted to mention that after several decades of having a landline and never missing a bill payment...
[01:19:07.060 --> 01:19:07.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-oh.
[01:19:07.860 --> 01:19:11.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: ...Horizon has taken away my landline.
[01:19:11.300 --> 01:19:12.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: They stopped servicing them.
[01:19:12.720 --> 01:19:13.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: I live in New Jersey.
[01:19:14.460 --> 01:19:16.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently, they've done it in Chicago, too.
[01:19:18.480 --> 01:19:18.960]  Um...
[01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:20.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where in New Jersey are you?
[01:19:21.420 --> 01:19:23.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm in Hoboken, New Jersey.
[01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:24.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, wow.
[01:19:25.080 --> 01:19:25.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know...
[01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:26.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Did you get a letter or something?
[01:19:26.680 --> 01:19:27.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: What happened?
[01:19:27.120 --> 01:19:27.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Did they get a letter?
[01:19:28.140 --> 01:19:28.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: What did the letter say?
[01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:30.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, here's the thing.
[01:19:31.140 --> 01:19:36.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: For about two years, they've basically been bullying us with files.
[01:19:36.260 --> 01:19:38.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, they come, they knock on your door, they ring your bill.
[01:19:38.980 --> 01:19:41.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: They send you advertisements constantly.
[01:19:42.440 --> 01:19:42.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um...
[01:19:42.840 --> 01:19:48.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so what they did, apparently, was they sent us notices, but it looked just like the advertisement.
[01:19:48.740 --> 01:19:49.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know what I mean?
[01:19:49.280 --> 01:19:52.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you don't open every one of those and read every one of those.
[01:19:52.940 --> 01:19:54.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: You basically just pay your bill.
[01:19:55.340 --> 01:19:56.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um...
[01:19:56.460 --> 01:20:03.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: But then, apparently, they did send one that said 30 days, and then they sent another one about 30 days later.
[01:20:03.400 --> 01:20:07.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: That looked a little different than I actually read, and it said seven days.
[01:20:08.440 --> 01:20:09.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um...
[01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:09.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: But...
[01:20:10.420 --> 01:20:13.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I really wanted to say about this...
[01:20:14.300 --> 01:20:16.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you could hear, I'm pretty upset about this.
[01:20:17.080 --> 01:20:17.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um...
[01:20:17.400 --> 01:20:17.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:20:17.760 --> 01:20:18.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: I would be too.
[01:20:18.820 --> 01:20:26.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: The thing is that most people who are affected by this are elderly, like myself.
[01:20:26.540 --> 01:20:26.780]  Mm-hmm.
[01:20:27.120 --> 01:20:27.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:20:27.500 --> 01:20:30.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I mean, come on, Verizon.
[01:20:30.660 --> 01:20:32.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: I understand moving on.
[01:20:32.380 --> 01:20:33.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I totally get that.
[01:20:33.640 --> 01:20:36.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not against all the new technology and everything.
[01:20:36.480 --> 01:20:38.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm on my cell phone.
[01:20:39.320 --> 01:20:43.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, did they really have to do this to us?
[01:20:43.620 --> 01:20:44.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: The greed.
[01:20:44.220 --> 01:20:45.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's shameful.
[01:20:45.360 --> 01:20:46.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It really is.
[01:20:46.980 --> 01:20:50.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: It is shameful that they would do this.
[01:20:50.220 --> 01:20:55.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: I want to suggest to the caller that she called the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities.
[01:20:55.760 --> 01:20:56.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: I did.
[01:20:56.700 --> 01:20:57.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: I did.
[01:20:57.400 --> 01:20:57.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have to tell you.
[01:20:57.960 --> 01:20:59.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: What did they say?
[01:20:59.900 --> 01:21:01.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Basically, it's like this.
[01:21:01.580 --> 01:21:10.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently, Verizon has been trying to do this for a while, and they weren't able to...
[01:21:10.220 --> 01:21:12.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I called so many different places, actually.
[01:21:12.320 --> 01:21:21.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a little confused, but the basic story is that legally, little bit at a time, they've been chipping away.
[01:21:22.120 --> 01:21:22.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay?
[01:21:23.420 --> 01:21:25.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: First, it was absolute no.
[01:21:25.540 --> 01:21:31.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then it was, okay, well, you could do it if you didn't disrupt any services.
[01:21:31.300 --> 01:21:38.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, in other words, people would just get Fios and still be able to have a phone.
[01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:42.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry.
[01:21:42.440 --> 01:21:42.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: One second.
[01:21:42.900 --> 01:21:44.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm losing my train of thought.
[01:21:44.260 --> 01:21:48.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: One of the other things they did was not maintain the older infrastructure.
[01:21:48.320 --> 01:21:53.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: So the copper wires, the stuff that was actually the old network was not maintained.
[01:21:53.220 --> 01:21:55.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was part of their rollout and moving away from it.
[01:21:56.040 --> 01:21:59.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, so it would sound awful and you'd be begging them for something different, basically.
[01:21:59.440 --> 01:22:02.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: See, that's, you know, that's the whole thing.
[01:22:02.460 --> 01:22:07.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're saying they don't want to service those copper lines anymore.
[01:22:07.780 --> 01:22:13.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, basically that comes down to it's a financial decision and screw you elderly people.
[01:22:13.580 --> 01:22:14.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:22:14.360 --> 01:22:19.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So even though we have been loyal, and I have to tell you, there was nothing wrong with my line.
[01:22:19.360 --> 01:22:21.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was working beautifully, you know?
[01:22:21.200 --> 01:22:31.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, can I just ask you a question because I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who don't understand the importance of a landline to somebody, some in the studio, in fact.
[01:22:32.200 --> 01:22:36.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is it in particular that you no longer have that you valued?
[01:22:38.380 --> 01:22:40.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, okay, a couple of things.
[01:22:40.700 --> 01:22:51.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am an elderly person and I had the landline when we were hit for the first time here with the hurricane that really affected us, which was sandy a few years ago.
[01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:53.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: We had nothing.
[01:22:53.560 --> 01:22:54.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everything went down.
[01:22:54.980 --> 01:22:55.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were flooded.
[01:22:55.620 --> 01:22:56.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: There were boats outside my house.
[01:22:57.220 --> 01:22:58.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's shocking.
[01:22:58.480 --> 01:22:59.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I never even had an inch of water.
[01:23:01.260 --> 01:23:04.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the only thing is that we're working with the landlines, okay?
[01:23:04.900 --> 01:23:08.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I had a phone for emergency or whatever.
[01:23:09.340 --> 01:23:11.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: The other thing is, again, I'm elderly.
[01:23:12.320 --> 01:23:14.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Believe it or not, I had dial-up computers.
[01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:17.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: So they took away my computer, too, basically.
[01:23:18.800 --> 01:23:19.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they just...
[01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:20.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's it.
[01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:22.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: They leave you on your own.
[01:23:24.820 --> 01:23:30.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernie, can I ask you what would happen if somebody was hit by a hurricane and they had a Fios line only?
[01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:36.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, they would lose their phone service because the batteries...
[01:23:36.380 --> 01:23:40.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Fios line is not powered by batteries at the central office.
[01:23:40.360 --> 01:23:45.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's powered by a little tiny battery pack in a network interface in your home.
[01:23:45.280 --> 01:23:46.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that only lasts for a few...
[01:23:46.640 --> 01:23:48.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Keeps your service alive for a few hours.
[01:23:48.900 --> 01:23:57.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: So assuming the fiber itself wasn't destroyed by the hurricane, if it was still a connection, as soon as the power would go out, probably a few hours later, you'd lose your phone service.
[01:23:58.060 --> 01:24:06.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's a much more dangerous service to have if you're interested in having a public... having a phone line for safety.
[01:24:06.420 --> 01:24:10.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's much more dangerous to have Fios because it's not nearly as reliable.
[01:24:10.360 --> 01:24:14.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: And structurally, it's not quite as centralized, would you say, Bernie, right?
[01:24:14.300 --> 01:24:20.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, you'd have these lines, these copper lines going directly to a central office that's then powered and has banks of batteries and so on.
[01:24:20.380 --> 01:24:23.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: But there's other intermediate things that are going on.
[01:24:23.200 --> 01:24:31.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you're maybe getting a couple strands for an entire neighborhood, that might be powered in one part of the neighborhood and then you power something else on your block.
[01:24:31.140 --> 01:24:46.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: So even if you're active for a couple hours or you make some other kind of technical solution work, you could be hampered by something in between because you're not going to a central location necessarily.
[01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:46.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not necessarily.
[01:24:46.540 --> 01:24:50.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's being switched and dealt with in the neighborhood and in the region.
[01:24:50.320 --> 01:24:50.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're right.
[01:24:50.600 --> 01:24:55.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's far more points of failure with Fios than there is with a plain old telephone service line.
[01:24:55.920 --> 01:24:58.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey guys, can I just interrupt for a second?
[01:24:58.400 --> 01:24:58.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:24:58.820 --> 01:25:03.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, I have to tell you, I have an old plan and this is a little expensive for me.
[01:25:03.860 --> 01:25:04.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[01:25:05.020 --> 01:25:06.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: From Jersey, huh?
[01:25:06.460 --> 01:25:07.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bless you for that.
[01:25:07.580 --> 01:25:07.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:09.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[01:25:09.220 --> 01:25:11.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's funny that they won't get rid of that.
[01:25:11.400 --> 01:25:15.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: They'll get rid of the actual landline, but they won't get rid of the 1980s billing plan.
[01:25:15.420 --> 01:25:17.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, actually, I'm on my cell phone.
[01:25:18.080 --> 01:25:26.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I wanted to say, by everything you said, you know, I've been reading and everything since this happened this month.
[01:25:26.860 --> 01:25:32.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: But my whole point really is basically about how they are screwing the elderly.
[01:25:33.700 --> 01:25:36.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because, you know, like I said, I relied on that phone.
[01:25:37.820 --> 01:25:45.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, on that phone, if I had a phone problem when my phone broke or something, it would cost me $20 to get a new phone.
[01:25:45.680 --> 01:25:53.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the cell phone that I've had for emergency, basically my cell phone I've just used when I go out to call a taxi or something.
[01:25:54.360 --> 01:25:56.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have an old flip thing.
[01:25:56.500 --> 01:25:58.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't... this phone does not have Internet.
[01:25:59.060 --> 01:26:05.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in other words, if I go to get a phone with Internet now, I mean, they cost a fortune.
[01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:12.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we're talking... my whole thing, like I said, is that basically I'm talking about how they've screwed the elderly.
[01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:17.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just a shameful thing for them to do this company that is so rich.
[01:26:17.740 --> 01:26:20.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I know they've been screwing their employees for a long time.
[01:26:20.840 --> 01:26:22.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I remember they went on strike a few years ago.
[01:26:23.120 --> 01:26:24.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: But anyway, thank you.
[01:26:24.740 --> 01:26:26.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much for taking my call.
[01:26:26.300 --> 01:26:27.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I appreciate it.
[01:26:27.440 --> 01:26:27.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:26:27.820 --> 01:26:29.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, Mike, you've got something to say.
[01:26:29.460 --> 01:26:35.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, like, is your position, Emmanuel, that like no one should ever be allowed to exit a business that they were previously in?
[01:26:35.480 --> 01:26:39.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Should we be like demanding that Western Union restore its telegraph lines?
[01:26:39.100 --> 01:26:39.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like...
[01:26:40.060 --> 01:26:42.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's funny how I'm suddenly the person on the spotlight here.
[01:26:42.860 --> 01:26:43.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: But okay, fine.
[01:26:43.540 --> 01:26:44.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're going to ask me these questions.
[01:26:45.980 --> 01:26:49.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah, you know, if you're a public utility...
[01:26:49.920 --> 01:26:51.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Western Union is a public utility.
[01:26:52.620 --> 01:26:54.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Telegraph, like, made America.
[01:26:55.780 --> 01:26:59.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, coast to coast America, you could not have without the telegraph.
[01:26:59.180 --> 01:26:59.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, but we still have it.
[01:26:59.740 --> 01:27:00.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's called the Internet.
[01:27:00.920 --> 01:27:01.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, it's...
[01:27:01.460 --> 01:27:05.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: So we've replaced a technology with a functionally equivalent one that's better and cheaper.
[01:27:05.460 --> 01:27:12.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't recall a lot of people that were basically complaining when Western Union stopped with the telegraph.
[01:27:13.040 --> 01:27:17.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hear a lot of people complaining about landlines being turned into Fios lines.
[01:27:17.360 --> 01:27:19.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, and at least it was equivalent, right?
[01:27:19.100 --> 01:27:22.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It did the telegraphy pretty much exactly the same way, right?
[01:27:23.040 --> 01:27:23.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, we're...
[01:27:23.820 --> 01:27:29.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: The thing is, what I have a problem with, you know, I love new technology and new developments and things like that.
[01:27:29.460 --> 01:27:34.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: What I don't like is the attitude that all old technology must be eliminated in favor of the new technology.
[01:27:35.100 --> 01:27:41.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why can't there be a mixture, a change over time, where you use one more than another, perhaps?
[01:27:42.320 --> 01:27:44.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why can't you have vinyl and CDs?
[01:27:44.600 --> 01:27:46.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why can't you have film and digital cameras?
[01:27:47.260 --> 01:27:50.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why can't you have payphones, even though everyone has a cell phone?
[01:27:50.380 --> 01:27:56.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, on 9-11, I remember nobody could make a cell phone call, but the payphones were working, those that were still maintained.
[01:27:56.520 --> 01:28:00.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: The biggest problem was the fact that the phone company wasn't maintaining them because nobody was using them anymore.
[01:28:01.040 --> 01:28:15.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if you have some backbone of old technology there, when the new technology fails, and it will fail at some point somehow, then you have a way of getting something done, of communicating in a different way, and you also have a link to the past.
[01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:32.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have some understanding of how technology works, and you can basically figure out telephony in ways you can't do with gadgets that are so sophisticated that if you drop it once, you have to replace it because nobody can fix it.
[01:28:32.840 --> 01:28:34.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we all should know how to wire up a phone.
[01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:39.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: We all should know how to hook something into the phone network.
[01:28:40.120 --> 01:28:42.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would get a lot more use if I knew how to start a fire.
[01:28:43.720 --> 01:28:44.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well...
[01:28:44.120 --> 01:28:44.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I don't know that.
[01:28:44.800 --> 01:28:46.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't know how to start a fire.
[01:28:46.100 --> 01:28:46.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can teach you that.
[01:28:46.900 --> 01:28:51.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it's a lot more useful, but I get through my life without it, so...
[01:28:51.280 --> 01:28:51.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Great.
[01:28:52.120 --> 01:28:54.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, okay, so if you're stranded on a desert island someone...
[01:28:54.540 --> 01:28:55.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, I'm gonna die, let's be clear.
[01:28:56.080 --> 01:28:58.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: If I'm stranded on a desert, like a real desert island, I'm gonna die.
[01:28:59.080 --> 01:29:02.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm totally useless, but I'll try...
[01:29:03.640 --> 01:29:07.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully it'll be a desert island in reach of a nearby island with cell service, I don't know.
[01:29:08.100 --> 01:29:10.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you saying new technology is better than fire?
[01:29:11.100 --> 01:29:12.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I'm saying I'm gonna die.
[01:29:12.440 --> 01:29:12.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:13.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have no useful skills.
[01:29:14.140 --> 01:29:15.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: No useful survival skills.
[01:29:15.320 --> 01:29:16.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: If that's your point, I'll happily admit it.
[01:29:16.920 --> 01:29:18.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Suddenly this turned in a different direction.
[01:29:18.460 --> 01:29:20.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernie, did you have anything to add to this?
[01:29:21.340 --> 01:29:24.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: If I was in the same island with Mike, I'd help him survive.
[01:29:24.240 --> 01:29:25.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was a boy scout.
[01:29:25.460 --> 01:29:26.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: I learned survival skills.
[01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:30.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, you probably learned how to use a landline there too.
[01:29:30.420 --> 01:29:30.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Kyle?
[01:29:31.240 --> 01:29:58.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I just agree with that she really was trying to emphasize the point that they are preying with the people that are probably... they're preying on them, confusing them, inundating them, doing a lot of kind of nasty things consciously or subconsciously with people that are probably the least prepared to deal with a new type of... a completely new type of information technology platform.
[01:29:58.480 --> 01:30:00.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or like, I guess it's a... it's a... what would you call it?
[01:30:00.500 --> 01:30:01.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: A medium, right?
[01:30:01.380 --> 01:30:01.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:30:01.740 --> 01:30:02.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're different wires.
[01:30:02.660 --> 01:30:05.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's like... it's different connectivity.
[01:30:05.380 --> 01:30:21.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: So having them be the people that are being approached and having to adapt and go through this, I think that is kind of a lot to expect from people that really just are used to one system working in a particular way.
[01:30:22.460 --> 01:30:26.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they're essentially getting less in turn.
[01:30:26.720 --> 01:30:30.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: When it's all said and done, they have less service than in their opinion.
[01:30:30.820 --> 01:30:33.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: It doesn't work the same way, and I guess not as well.
[01:30:34.060 --> 01:30:38.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's more than just them not being used to a new system, and it's not working the same way.
[01:30:38.620 --> 01:30:39.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: In some ways, it works better.
[01:30:39.980 --> 01:30:46.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you prefer something, you shouldn't be forced not to use it just because it's not as profitable as a company wants it to be.
[01:30:47.420 --> 01:30:54.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: If the infrastructure is still there, and I don't see that infrastructure being dismantled, people should still have that choice.
[01:30:54.600 --> 01:30:57.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think there's anything that hurts new technology as far as that goes.
[01:30:57.840 --> 01:30:58.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Rob?
[01:30:58.600 --> 01:30:59.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Something like a public utility.
[01:30:59.960 --> 01:31:14.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, when Western Union stopped sending telegrams, I don't know how many people there were who depended only on telegrams, who didn't have the wherewithal or the access to replacement technology to fill that role in their lives.
[01:31:14.200 --> 01:31:15.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, they replaced it with teletype.
[01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:18.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, but so if you were...
[01:31:18.800 --> 01:31:19.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can still send a telegram, can't you?
[01:31:19.920 --> 01:31:19.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:31:19.960 --> 01:31:21.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: You just need to have somebody to deliver it.
[01:31:21.780 --> 01:31:22.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, but where...
[01:31:23.100 --> 01:31:23.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: They got rid of the service.
[01:31:23.460 --> 01:31:24.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry?
[01:31:24.440 --> 01:31:25.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: They got rid of the service about...
[01:31:26.120 --> 01:31:27.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it was about 12 years ago.
[01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:29.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, but what's required for the service?
[01:31:29.220 --> 01:31:30.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Couldn't someone just start that up again somehow?
[01:31:31.460 --> 01:31:32.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there are third...
[01:31:32.360 --> 01:31:35.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there are third parties that provide similar kinds of services now.
[01:31:35.640 --> 01:31:39.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: But Western Union stopped offering telegram service about, I don't know, about 12...
[01:31:39.960 --> 01:31:42.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right, but what I'm saying is, hardware-wise, what did they need?
[01:31:42.300 --> 01:31:44.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: A teletype and some sort of connection, right?
[01:31:44.660 --> 01:31:46.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: They had a network with...
[01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:49.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, back in the day, they had teletype machines that would print out stuff.
[01:31:50.000 --> 01:31:55.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: My aunt, who recently passed away in 92, was a teletype operator for Western Union.
[01:31:55.820 --> 01:31:57.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: She would take a...
[01:31:57.780 --> 01:32:05.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: People would walk up with a slip to the window, and she would make sure it was written properly, and then she would type it in.
[01:32:05.640 --> 01:32:07.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: She would take their money, and she'd type it in, and it would...
[01:32:07.600 --> 01:32:09.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: She would send it to the right...
[01:32:09.540 --> 01:32:14.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: She would route it to the right Western Union office, and the recipients...
[01:32:14.920 --> 01:32:19.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: The office closest to the recipient would get it print out, and then it would be delivered by hand to...
[01:32:19.940 --> 01:32:23.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, the point I'm trying to make, Bernie, is that that could be replicated fairly...
[01:32:23.880 --> 01:32:28.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, not the easiest thing in the world, but another company, if they really wanted to, could do this.
[01:32:28.460 --> 01:32:31.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: With the phone network, it's a bit more difficult.
[01:32:31.280 --> 01:32:35.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't see Verizon or other phone companies saying, you know, we don't want these landlines anymore.
[01:32:35.920 --> 01:32:41.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: You take them, you run them, and we'll just, you know, divest ourselves of all this.
[01:32:41.920 --> 01:32:42.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: They did that in Maine.
[01:32:43.160 --> 01:32:50.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Bell Telephone Company in Maine completely divested themselves of all the landline service and turned it over to a third-party SEALAC.
[01:32:50.320 --> 01:32:51.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, so maybe that's the answer, then.
[01:32:51.740 --> 01:32:53.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: If they don't want to do it, give it to somebody who does.
[01:32:53.520 --> 01:32:53.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[01:32:53.820 --> 01:32:56.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: The whole state of Maine is now operated by an independent company.
[01:32:57.300 --> 01:32:58.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: I bet they're doing okay.
[01:32:58.620 --> 01:33:00.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, Verizon did that in the city with the payphones.
[01:33:00.680 --> 01:33:03.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: They just, you know, in total, ship them off to somebody else.
[01:33:03.400 --> 01:33:11.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the point I'm trying to make is that, as our caller demonstrated, not everybody has access to the replacement for a landline.
[01:33:11.680 --> 01:33:19.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have a phone from 50 years ago and it's plugged into the wall and you still have the service hooked up, chances are that phone still works just as well because it's a robust technology.
[01:33:19.540 --> 01:33:22.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: But not everybody can scrape together the money for a cell phone.
[01:33:22.240 --> 01:33:24.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not everybody can scrape together the money for a smartphone.
[01:33:24.420 --> 01:33:27.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And should they have to if the old stuff is still there?
[01:33:28.080 --> 01:33:28.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:33:28.300 --> 01:33:32.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Digital TV is another example of how people were forced to change standards for no good reason.
[01:33:33.060 --> 01:33:34.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you can't just plug something in anymore.
[01:33:34.900 --> 01:33:36.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to get another piece of hardware.
[01:33:36.940 --> 01:33:37.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't work as well.
[01:33:38.820 --> 01:33:44.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And someone just made that decision that this is how it has to be and the old way just isn't going to exist anymore.
[01:33:44.140 --> 01:33:54.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: The other thing that she mentioned that I think is worth noting and we ought to think about is just how much money the Bell system made and how much money is involved.
[01:33:54.340 --> 01:34:08.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: So when these people buy up Spectrum or they pivot in one direction and just dump customers or don't take care of equipment, it's because their bottom line is going to get better by not doing that, by going the opposite.
[01:34:08.540 --> 01:34:12.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it may be counterintuitive to use the customer, but they benefit.
[01:34:12.140 --> 01:34:14.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: They do not do anything unless they're making money.
[01:34:15.820 --> 01:34:31.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: If your point is that someone today could operate a service of hand delivering messages within a day, then there are more entities than ever before offering the service of providing voice communications.
[01:34:31.860 --> 01:34:47.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the telegraph network itself, like wires with Morse code operators on them, no longer exists because it has been replaced with a similarly functional, not exactly the same, but similarly functional, but better in all ways technology.
[01:34:48.200 --> 01:34:48.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:34:48.600 --> 01:34:55.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the same is happening, slowly but surely, with copper telephones.
[01:34:55.840 --> 01:34:58.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's not better in all ways, I'll tell you that.
[01:34:58.360 --> 01:35:02.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, just listen to the sound quality of a phone call today and compare that to something 50 years ago.
[01:35:02.660 --> 01:35:03.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: It should be much better.
[01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:06.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: I agree it should be much better, but it's not.
[01:35:06.260 --> 01:35:11.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Listen to phone interviews on television or radio stations, you can barely make out what people are saying.
[01:35:11.940 --> 01:35:18.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe if the companies invested a little bit more and used more bandwidth, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
[01:35:18.360 --> 01:35:19.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe I'd be sold.
[01:35:19.140 --> 01:35:21.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: But right now, there's no comparison.
[01:35:21.520 --> 01:35:28.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think that's a much better policy argument to make than Verizon must be required to maintain copper all over the place.
[01:35:28.500 --> 01:35:30.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they're not replacing it with anything comparable.
[01:35:30.500 --> 01:35:31.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's my point.
[01:35:31.560 --> 01:35:34.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: If they were doing that, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
[01:35:34.400 --> 01:35:34.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[01:35:34.500 --> 01:35:43.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: What if Verizon came to the lady who called us and said, OK, well, instead of your landline, let's give you a comparable cell phone that'll cost a comparable amount.
[01:35:43.980 --> 01:35:45.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that'll work in a hurricane.
[01:35:45.300 --> 01:35:46.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that'll work in a hurricane, yeah.
[01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:48.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: How is she going to get to the Internet?
[01:35:48.220 --> 01:35:50.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: She can't dial up the Internet on her cell phone.
[01:35:51.320 --> 01:35:53.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, phone without Internet.
[01:35:53.000 --> 01:35:54.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: That sounds so weird now.
[01:35:54.760 --> 01:35:54.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:35:54.980 --> 01:36:01.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: She had dial-up service on her landline, and now she's effectively cut off from the Internet because they are discontinuing her landline.
[01:36:02.060 --> 01:36:02.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you can't...
[01:36:03.580 --> 01:36:06.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think you can do dial-up over a Fios...
[01:36:06.500 --> 01:36:07.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's not moving ahead.
[01:36:07.480 --> 01:36:08.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's moving backwards.
[01:36:08.400 --> 01:36:10.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but you can get Internet on cell phones, Bernie.
[01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:15.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, but she wants to connect her PC at home to the Internet.
[01:36:15.480 --> 01:36:16.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can do that.
[01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:22.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, only if she bought a phone that was capable of tethering, and there'd be a very limited amount of data.
[01:36:22.980 --> 01:36:25.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: A modem has even more limited amount of data.
[01:36:27.100 --> 01:36:31.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think over a month's time you could download far more with a dial-up modem than you could...
[01:36:31.260 --> 01:36:32.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: OK, you know, we can talk about this all night.
[01:36:33.020 --> 01:36:33.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just...
[01:36:33.420 --> 01:36:37.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't see the pressing need to force people to do things like this against their will.
[01:36:37.400 --> 01:36:39.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, not when people are clamoring for it.
[01:36:39.720 --> 01:36:42.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, there's entire neighborhoods, entire regions.
[01:36:42.840 --> 01:36:44.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, Fire Island is a great example of that.
[01:36:44.740 --> 01:36:44.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:36:45.360 --> 01:36:48.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Verizon tried to pull that nonsense there after Sandy.
[01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:48.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Absolutely.
[01:36:48.980 --> 01:37:01.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm thinking of South Downtown in Seattle, the ridiculous centralization of where they're rolling things out when entire whole other communities could be served and are begging to have high-speed Internet.
[01:37:02.220 --> 01:37:12.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: It ought not to be something that, you know, people see as a negative when others are really pulling their hair out over a lack of access at all.
[01:37:13.060 --> 01:37:17.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, yeah, it's pretty haphazard is what it sounds like.
[01:37:17.140 --> 01:37:18.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, well, interesting.
[01:37:18.220 --> 01:37:20.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to an extended version of Off The Hook.
[01:37:20.780 --> 01:37:22.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're on until 9 o'clock.
[01:37:22.160 --> 01:37:24.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: We might take some more phone calls in a little bit.
[01:37:24.500 --> 01:37:27.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, of course, you can write to us, oth@2600.com.
[01:37:27.580 --> 01:37:29.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is a fundraising edition.
[01:37:30.100 --> 01:37:33.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: The fundraising number, 212-209-2950.
[01:37:33.500 --> 01:37:38.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have been listening to this show and you've gotten something out of it, please consider making a donation.
[01:37:39.120 --> 01:37:42.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can also go to the website give2wbai.org.
[01:37:42.520 --> 01:37:44.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's 2, the number, or the word, T-O.
[01:37:45.980 --> 01:37:51.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And on that site, you can make all kinds of donations, getting all kinds of premiums, or you can look up our specific premiums.
[01:37:51.860 --> 01:37:54.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, Rob, I know there are a couple of premiums you're offering tonight.
[01:37:54.580 --> 01:37:55.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: There are.
[01:37:55.280 --> 01:38:02.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: There are some paintings, paintings on canvas that you can get of my own original art, unique paintings, each one of them.
[01:38:02.700 --> 01:38:10.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: One set is Hacker Luminaries, Luminaries of the Hacker World, which there are a few left, I believe, for a donation of $50 or more.
[01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:19.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: You could also get a historical telephones painting, which will be paintings of various historical and interesting telephones, also for a donation of $50 or more.
[01:38:19.580 --> 01:38:20.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: And be sure to ask for it by name.
[01:38:21.180 --> 01:38:23.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly, or search for it by name.
[01:38:23.460 --> 01:38:26.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you've also got, we've also got some Hope stuff up, haven't we?
[01:38:26.500 --> 01:38:28.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Hope Archives, ask for that by name, too.
[01:38:28.600 --> 01:38:30.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Hope Archives DVD collection.
[01:38:30.120 --> 01:38:38.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: That'll give you all the keynote addresses we've had since the very first Hope Conference back in 1994 up until Hope X last year.
[01:38:38.860 --> 01:38:45.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can get a DVD version of that for a pledge of $50, or you can get the thumb drive version for a pledge of $75.
[01:38:45.520 --> 01:38:48.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-209-2950.
[01:38:48.240 --> 01:38:49.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Please show your support.
[01:38:49.780 --> 01:39:03.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: And when you do call 212-209-2950 to show your support, you're showing your support not just for the radio station and for this program, which we really appreciate, but you're also showing your support for the style of fundraising we're doing tonight where we don't spend all two hours on it.
[01:39:03.960 --> 01:39:07.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if this is successful, then we can do this kind of thing in the future.
[01:39:08.340 --> 01:39:13.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: If it is not successful, then we can't, and we will have to spend more time asking you for money.
[01:39:13.440 --> 01:39:15.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: So 212-209-2950.
[01:39:16.080 --> 01:39:17.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or we won't be on it all.
[01:39:17.220 --> 01:39:18.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:39:18.640 --> 01:39:27.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: And of course, if none of these premiums are exactly your thing, you can still go to give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950 and make a donation of any amount you like.
[01:39:27.940 --> 01:39:31.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Make sure you tell them that Off The Hook is your favorite show that you'd like to support.
[01:39:31.320 --> 01:39:32.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have some other...
[01:39:33.140 --> 01:39:34.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: The station has some other gifts for you.
[01:39:34.740 --> 01:39:41.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: And also, you get for a certain amount or above, you get a membership in the station and a say in what goes on here.
[01:39:41.780 --> 01:39:45.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: So 212-209-2950 or give2wbai.org.
[01:39:45.900 --> 01:39:56.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, it amazes me that we've been on now for an hour and 41 minutes, and we've been just talking nonstop about a few things, but we have so many other things we could be talking about as well.
[01:39:56.840 --> 01:40:01.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd like to try to get to some of them in the 19 minutes that we have left, less than 19 minutes we have left.
[01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:06.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it goes to show that there's a lot going on in this community, a lot of discussion that needs to be had.
[01:40:06.460 --> 01:40:10.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm glad we have our phone lines back so we can share that with our listeners as well.
[01:40:10.140 --> 01:40:11.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And thanks to everybody who's called in tonight.
[01:40:11.980 --> 01:40:14.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Even the ones with some crazy theories.
[01:40:16.040 --> 01:40:24.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, we've heard from our friends in Germany that the 32nd Chaos Communication Congress has sold out.
[01:40:25.100 --> 01:40:26.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is unbelievable.
[01:40:26.640 --> 01:40:28.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: We were in the venue last year.
[01:40:28.420 --> 01:40:30.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's so big, so incredibly huge.
[01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:33.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: But apparently, they've reached their maximum.
[01:40:33.300 --> 01:40:37.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: They say as of Saturday morning, the 32C3 ticket presale is sold out.
[01:40:37.260 --> 01:40:40.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: We are overwhelmed by the enormous number of people who want to join us in Hamburg.
[01:40:40.780 --> 01:40:43.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: But unfortunately, the venue's capacity is limited.
[01:40:44.160 --> 01:40:47.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Therefore, there will not be another batch of tickets for presale.
[01:40:47.360 --> 01:40:51.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: But there will be a very limited amount of day passes for sale on site.
[01:40:51.580 --> 01:41:06.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: So if you already got your tickets to go over to Hamburg this winter, the 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th of December, well, go anyway and beg for tickets at the door.
[01:41:07.140 --> 01:41:11.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: But really, next time, get your tickets the same time you buy your plane tickets.
[01:41:11.280 --> 01:41:13.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's probably the best idea.
[01:41:15.160 --> 01:41:17.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we've seen this kind of thing happen in very many places.
[01:41:17.940 --> 01:41:24.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: We just did another presale on Sunday for the upcoming HOPE conference, the 11th HOPE, taking place in July here in New York.
[01:41:24.980 --> 01:41:28.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: And once again, I think within 10 seconds, they were all gone.
[01:41:29.600 --> 01:41:42.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: So there is definitely a need to share these kinds of discussions and this kind of material, whether it be on the radio, through the magazine, through various conferences.
[01:41:42.980 --> 01:41:43.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's good to see.
[01:41:43.980 --> 01:41:44.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is healthy.
[01:41:45.140 --> 01:41:47.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it is very competitive now.
[01:41:48.360 --> 01:41:52.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we hope to see a lot of people showing up in New York.
[01:41:52.160 --> 01:41:59.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I guess we should caution you that it might sell out there, too, especially if things keep growing the way they've been growing.
[01:42:00.120 --> 01:42:04.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our tickets will go on sale in January, and there will be more information on HOPE.net.
[01:42:05.000 --> 01:42:13.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wonder if, like, a lot of times at conferences in this country, you see what are called B-sides, which are other small events that pop up alongside larger events.
[01:42:14.280 --> 01:42:20.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I wonder if something like that's going to happen in Germany now for maybe those who can't get in but have already made their travel arrangements or whatever.
[01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:24.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, yeah, if you know of anything like that, let us know, oth@2600.com.
[01:42:24.660 --> 01:42:27.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: There has been at the past at the same time as the CCC.
[01:42:28.260 --> 01:42:30.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't heard anything this year, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.
[01:42:31.200 --> 01:42:31.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, Bernie?
[01:42:32.240 --> 01:42:41.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was going to say, there is obviously the B-sides conferences here in the U.S., like Info Security.
[01:42:41.360 --> 01:42:49.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just a few weeks ago, I went to B-sides Delaware in Wilmington, where Josh and Janish put together a great all-day conference.
[01:42:49.240 --> 01:42:49.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was a lot of fun.
[01:42:50.460 --> 01:42:53.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, but I would like to see...
[01:42:53.020 --> 01:42:54.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about a B-sides thing for HOPE?
[01:42:54.940 --> 01:42:57.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is that possible for people that can't make it to New York?
[01:42:57.520 --> 01:42:57.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Absolutely.
[01:42:58.060 --> 01:43:00.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's New York City, so I think there's plenty of room for it.
[01:43:00.060 --> 01:43:01.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'd love to see something like that as well.
[01:43:02.360 --> 01:43:08.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It just keeps getting bigger every year, so that'll be the case, I'm sure, here and other places as well.
[01:43:09.520 --> 01:43:11.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, so moving on to some other items.
[01:43:12.900 --> 01:43:27.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is a story that I just saw a couple of days ago from our favorite place, Florida, where a woman's car snitched on her after she allegedly rear-ended two vehicles and left the scene without reporting the accident to the authorities.
[01:43:27.040 --> 01:43:30.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: This happened in Port St. Lucie.
[01:43:31.860 --> 01:43:38.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: They managed to track her down thanks to her Ford's emergency assistance safety feature.
[01:43:38.780 --> 01:43:43.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, the system activates when sensors on the car detect a sudden change of speed or movement.
[01:43:44.140 --> 01:43:53.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: An emergency call is automatically placed to local first responders who can pinpoint the precise location of the incident using information supplied by the vehicle's GPS unit.
[01:43:53.440 --> 01:44:00.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: An audio recording released by the authorities reveals how the perpetrator tried to convince the dispatcher there was no cause for concern.
[01:44:02.460 --> 01:44:04.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's basically saying everything was fine.
[01:44:05.340 --> 01:44:09.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the dispatcher said, but your car called in saying you've been involved in an accident.
[01:44:09.320 --> 01:44:10.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Doesn't do that for no reason.
[01:44:10.560 --> 01:44:12.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you leave the scene of an accident?
[01:44:12.260 --> 01:44:15.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Then all just kind of degraded from there.
[01:44:15.880 --> 01:44:18.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do we think about cars ratting on us?
[01:44:19.400 --> 01:44:21.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think I missed this episode of Knight Rider.
[01:44:23.300 --> 01:44:24.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's hard to argue, you know.
[01:44:25.020 --> 01:44:29.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, why would you want to let somebody get away with something like this?
[01:44:29.540 --> 01:44:41.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, a tip for motorists is if you kill someone in your car and you don't leave the scene and you're sober at the time, then you won't be charged with a crime, basically, under any other circumstances.
[01:44:42.020 --> 01:44:53.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it's bad advice, but it is a little bit disconcerting that this device, this expensive, dangerous device that this woman bought, was then the thing that turned her in.
[01:44:53.080 --> 01:45:00.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: The thing is, we know, especially on this program, but also people in general know how often computers glitch and go wrong and start doing things they're not supposed to.
[01:45:01.020 --> 01:45:04.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: So what happens when your car snitches on you and says you've been in an accident and you haven't?
[01:45:05.200 --> 01:45:06.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who are they going to believe?
[01:45:06.120 --> 01:45:06.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: You or your car?
[01:45:06.760 --> 01:45:07.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, there's that.
[01:45:07.660 --> 01:45:08.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's certainly that.
[01:45:08.460 --> 01:45:10.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see it as more of a stepping stone.
[01:45:10.160 --> 01:45:11.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Like, it's hard to argue this.
[01:45:11.460 --> 01:45:17.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's usually hard to argue the initial use of some new technology because it's only to protect you.
[01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:22.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's only to isolate when somebody does something unforgivable.
[01:45:23.940 --> 01:45:25.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: But where does it stop?
[01:45:25.520 --> 01:45:31.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do we now log every mile per hour somebody drives, how fast they go, one mile above the speed limit?
[01:45:31.300 --> 01:45:33.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: You get a ticket for going one mile above the speed limit.
[01:45:33.640 --> 01:45:37.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're accountable for every action that you... every transgression, everything.
[01:45:38.420 --> 01:45:42.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you don't make a full stop before making a ride on red, then that's another ticket right there.
[01:45:44.140 --> 01:45:46.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then, you know, if you drive to a neighborhood you're not supposed to be in.
[01:45:46.980 --> 01:45:49.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that can be recorded as well and you can be penalized for that.
[01:45:50.160 --> 01:45:51.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, where is the line?
[01:45:52.220 --> 01:45:54.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Everyone has a different place for that line.
[01:45:55.100 --> 01:45:57.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we seem to always be moving it.
[01:45:57.440 --> 01:45:59.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what worries me about things like this.
[01:45:59.440 --> 01:46:03.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, in the past, we didn't feel the need for this.
[01:46:03.220 --> 01:46:09.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: But just as we feel the need for surveillance cameras in all the neighborhoods now, and by we, I mean Americans in general.
[01:46:09.340 --> 01:46:15.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because that does seem to be the consensus that this is how you prevent crime by having surveillance cameras around.
[01:46:16.240 --> 01:46:17.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where are we going with this?
[01:46:17.700 --> 01:46:19.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: How much surveillance are we talking about?
[01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:22.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, in people's homes now, there are nanny cams.
[01:46:22.860 --> 01:46:24.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: You spy on your own kids.
[01:46:24.480 --> 01:46:28.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know when your kid leaves a particular area that you agreed they would not leave.
[01:46:28.880 --> 01:46:30.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: So kids can't be kids anymore.
[01:46:30.960 --> 01:46:32.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: They can't ever break the rules.
[01:46:33.680 --> 01:46:41.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just worry about what kind of people we're going to turn into when we fear any transgression whatsoever, no matter how minor.
[01:46:41.440 --> 01:46:46.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I have a question for the section of our audience which celebrates Christmas.
[01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:49.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I heard about this thing recently, which is an elf that like spies on your children.
[01:46:49.880 --> 01:46:50.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is this real?
[01:46:51.040 --> 01:46:51.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, indeed.
[01:46:52.100 --> 01:46:54.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: My nephew has one of these.
[01:46:55.480 --> 01:46:57.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a toy elf that sits on a shelf.
[01:46:57.740 --> 01:47:00.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the child is not allowed to touch it.
[01:47:00.360 --> 01:47:04.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: It must remain under the watchful gaze of the elf who supports.
[01:47:04.640 --> 01:47:05.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, wait, wait.
[01:47:05.700 --> 01:47:06.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: What?
[01:47:07.140 --> 01:47:08.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Pointy-eared big brother is watching you.
[01:47:08.900 --> 01:47:17.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the elf will, you will find if you are a child with an elf on the shelf, the elf will move when you're not looking and sit somewhere else and watch you from there every so often.
[01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:24.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And apparently we'll report back to Santa Claus and or his minions and whoever he shares data with about your actions.
[01:47:24.640 --> 01:47:31.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right around 40 years from now, 45 years, when we have a country filled with paranoid lunatics, this is the starting point.
[01:47:31.820 --> 01:47:32.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is how it all began.
[01:47:33.060 --> 01:47:34.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just make note of that.
[01:47:36.620 --> 01:47:37.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where do I get one of these elves?
[01:47:37.900 --> 01:47:38.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: I want to...
[01:47:38.420 --> 01:47:40.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine in any toy store.
[01:47:40.560 --> 01:47:41.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[01:47:41.320 --> 01:47:42.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: On a shelf, apparently.
[01:47:42.900 --> 01:47:43.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: What, the big brother elves?
[01:47:43.980 --> 01:47:44.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: What are they called?
[01:47:44.720 --> 01:47:46.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, elf on a shelf is what it's called.
[01:47:46.500 --> 01:47:47.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a real thing.
[01:47:47.640 --> 01:47:50.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I read about it on the Internet and I thought it was like a joke, but it's a real thing.
[01:47:51.200 --> 01:47:52.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a real thing.
[01:47:52.240 --> 01:47:53.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is what happens.
[01:47:53.120 --> 01:47:54.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: You think it's a joke and it turns out to be real.
[01:47:54.940 --> 01:47:55.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just like Trump.
[01:47:55.720 --> 01:47:59.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm looking at his face right now because I'm still on Jeb Bush's website.
[01:47:59.620 --> 01:48:01.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm looking at Trump's smiling face.
[01:48:01.440 --> 01:48:02.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm going to try and change that.
[01:48:03.200 --> 01:48:04.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that seems doable.
[01:48:04.860 --> 01:48:05.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just close the browser.
[01:48:06.760 --> 01:48:14.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're using the amazing advances in technology to make some of the stupidest things and some of the worst things.
[01:48:15.820 --> 01:48:28.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think we'll look back on a lot of products and software that's come about in the last 10 years with maybe some sadness and hopefully a good deal of humor.
[01:48:30.100 --> 01:48:31.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because it's... I don't know.
[01:48:31.840 --> 01:48:40.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's so many other things people could work on and use their skills and so many areas that need design and engineering and it's just kind of terrible.
[01:48:40.740 --> 01:48:46.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, one thing, speaking to that, one thing that I've learned is that there are so many smart people out there.
[01:48:46.280 --> 01:49:00.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: We went to another meeting, another 2600 meeting this last Friday, and people going to the CCC and going to other hacker conferences, you'll soon realize how many bright, intelligent people there are that get it, that are willing to pour themselves into projects and come up with all kinds of new,
[01:49:01.020 --> 01:49:02.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: creative, and positive things.
[01:49:03.120 --> 01:49:04.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: So don't lose hope.
[01:49:04.240 --> 01:49:09.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are all kinds of cool people out there and a lot of them are hackers and it's a positive thing.
[01:49:09.660 --> 01:49:12.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: 12,000 tickets the CCC sold.
[01:49:12.620 --> 01:49:13.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Isn't that something?
[01:49:13.220 --> 01:49:13.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's amazing.
[01:49:14.020 --> 01:49:17.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, let's take a couple more phone calls because we have a few more minutes and I'd like to do that.
[01:49:17.200 --> 01:49:19.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: 718-780-8888.
[01:49:19.680 --> 01:49:20.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is this a caller?
[01:49:20.420 --> 01:49:20.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[01:49:21.820 --> 01:49:22.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[01:49:22.360 --> 01:49:23.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[01:49:23.840 --> 01:49:26.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to ask about encrypted smartphones.
[01:49:27.520 --> 01:49:29.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, go ahead and ask about encrypted smartphones.
[01:49:29.880 --> 01:49:30.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do you need to know?
[01:49:31.900 --> 01:49:33.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do they make one?
[01:49:33.060 --> 01:49:33.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is there one that you recommend?
[01:49:34.980 --> 01:49:36.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's a couple of them out there.
[01:49:37.480 --> 01:49:37.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:49:37.840 --> 01:49:39.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: The...
[01:49:39.000 --> 01:49:39.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's see.
[01:49:40.380 --> 01:49:41.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: So...
[01:49:41.020 --> 01:49:41.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: The...
[01:49:41.880 --> 01:49:42.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's see.
[01:49:42.280 --> 01:49:49.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's the black phone, which is an encrypted Android phone.
[01:49:49.380 --> 01:49:50.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's...
[01:49:50.020 --> 01:49:52.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can't find that at a local store though, can you?
[01:49:52.660 --> 01:49:52.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[01:49:53.100 --> 01:49:57.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have a project website and I believe it's blackphone.ch.
[01:49:58.380 --> 01:49:58.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[01:49:58.940 --> 01:49:59.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe $700.
[01:50:00.200 --> 01:50:00.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[01:50:00.320 --> 01:50:06.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can I just ask the caller, like, what do you wish to encrypt in such that who can't read it?
[01:50:07.780 --> 01:50:09.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that really a necessary question?
[01:50:09.760 --> 01:50:09.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[01:50:09.880 --> 01:50:12.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Should it just be the default that we encrypt our communications period?
[01:50:12.760 --> 01:50:30.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, like, substantially all new cell phones with the newest versions of the operating systems from both Google and Apple, the data on the phone itself is encrypted so that you can't just, like, break it open and read all the data.
[01:50:30.940 --> 01:50:33.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: So that's, like, all phones do that.
[01:50:33.680 --> 01:50:45.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you just wish to communicate with people encrypted so that it's encrypted over the wire, you can get an app called Signal, which, again, available for both of those platforms.
[01:50:46.060 --> 01:50:54.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And as easy to use as any other SMS client, except that if you're communicating with someone who also has it, then it will be encrypted.
[01:50:54.680 --> 01:51:00.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you can use that on whatever phone you already have, if it's a smartphone.
[01:51:00.960 --> 01:51:03.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: So there are options that don't cost $700.
[01:51:04.060 --> 01:51:12.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is the caller calling about encrypted voice communications or encrypted SMS, MMS, and email on her phone?
[01:51:12.900 --> 01:51:13.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everything.
[01:51:13.640 --> 01:51:14.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, everything.
[01:51:14.380 --> 01:51:15.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have my phone.
[01:51:15.200 --> 01:51:18.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm hesitant to get one because, one, the price.
[01:51:19.060 --> 01:51:19.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:51:19.520 --> 01:51:21.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Two, the lack of privacy.
[01:51:23.980 --> 01:51:26.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's dangerous.
[01:51:26.160 --> 01:51:27.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have a flip phone.
[01:51:28.240 --> 01:51:28.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:51:28.800 --> 01:51:33.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's funny because a lot of phones are about $700 these days.
[01:51:33.860 --> 01:51:37.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's kind of funny that the ones we're talking about are...
[01:51:37.000 --> 01:51:38.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, they're generally a little bit more.
[01:51:39.180 --> 01:51:43.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: And there are a lot of groups that are working on making actual entire phones that are encrypted.
[01:51:44.380 --> 01:51:46.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's another project you might be interested.
[01:51:46.920 --> 01:51:50.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know if it's any better price-wise or whatever.
[01:51:50.800 --> 01:51:52.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not really shopping for this stuff myself.
[01:51:52.760 --> 01:51:55.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: But Cryptophone.de is another one.
[01:51:55.480 --> 01:51:59.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: They've been developing an encrypted telephone for quite some time.
[01:51:59.640 --> 01:52:00.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Incredibly pricey, actually.
[01:52:01.060 --> 01:52:01.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: What is it?
[01:52:01.680 --> 01:52:03.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have a lot of different models.
[01:52:03.400 --> 01:52:04.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have a desktop VoIP phone.
[01:52:05.060 --> 01:52:06.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have also mobile phones.
[01:52:06.680 --> 01:52:08.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's called Cryptophone.
[01:52:08.180 --> 01:52:13.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they sell a variety of products that have varying degrees of capability.
[01:52:13.100 --> 01:52:15.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: But as Mike said, it's also a little bit more pricey.
[01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:21.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Probably somebody that's maybe involved in a business or something is their target.
[01:52:21.660 --> 01:52:26.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: But as he said also, there are other apps and things that people are adding.
[01:52:26.420 --> 01:52:29.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And there are even devices they're naming.
[01:52:29.280 --> 01:52:32.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think the Priv was like an Android phone.
[01:52:32.680 --> 01:52:33.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't have to spend money.
[01:52:34.300 --> 01:52:35.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just any smartphone.
[01:52:35.420 --> 01:52:36.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: You do have to spend money for a smartphone.
[01:52:37.120 --> 01:52:41.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: But any smartphone manufactured in the past couple of years is capable of running this app signal.
[01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:42.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's free.
[01:52:43.160 --> 01:52:45.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: But signals, it's only for text messages, right?
[01:52:45.220 --> 01:52:46.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, it can also make voice calls.
[01:52:46.620 --> 01:52:48.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the voice calls, you can understand what people are saying?
[01:52:48.860 --> 01:52:52.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't actually tried the voice call feature, but it's fairly new.
[01:52:52.220 --> 01:52:54.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Next show, why don't you go on the air using it?
[01:52:54.560 --> 01:52:55.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'll see how good it is.
[01:52:55.560 --> 01:52:56.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll do...
[01:52:56.280 --> 01:52:58.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because our phone in the studio can't support it.
[01:52:59.100 --> 01:53:00.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: All these encryption things, both sides have.
[01:53:00.220 --> 01:53:04.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: You mean the phone has to support it on the other side, so you can only call other people who are doing the same thing.
[01:53:05.040 --> 01:53:05.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's how...
[01:53:05.360 --> 01:53:05.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the problem!
[01:53:06.260 --> 01:53:07.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's how encryption works.
[01:53:07.340 --> 01:53:08.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: You have to be able to decrypt it.
[01:53:08.660 --> 01:53:10.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but you can still encrypt the connection.
[01:53:10.360 --> 01:53:13.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, you can't, unless the person on the other end can decrypt it.
[01:53:14.400 --> 01:53:16.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, but the point is, there are many...
[01:53:16.580 --> 01:53:17.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know what you want.
[01:53:17.760 --> 01:53:20.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, there are many areas of weakness.
[01:53:20.940 --> 01:53:28.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: None of the products anyone has ever described, can one person have something magically called encryption, and the person on the other end doesn't have to have it.
[01:53:28.860 --> 01:53:29.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's no such product.
[01:53:29.880 --> 01:53:31.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying.
[01:53:31.220 --> 01:53:43.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm saying there are places where you can tie into the connection, for instance, before it's sent over the wireless spectrum, where either it's encrypted or it's not encrypted, such as a T-Mobile tower.
[01:53:43.520 --> 01:53:43.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:53:44.080 --> 01:53:47.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's how law enforcement gets access to conversations.
[01:53:47.660 --> 01:53:50.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: They go to the place where it's not encrypted.
[01:53:50.240 --> 01:53:57.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think what the caller wants is as much encryption as possible from when she picks up the phone to when the other person picks up their phone.
[01:53:57.380 --> 01:54:04.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, if they're broadcasting their phone conversations out of loudspeaker in their porch, you know, that's on their side.
[01:54:04.080 --> 01:54:08.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I think what she's looking for is something that just covers as much as possible.
[01:54:08.240 --> 01:54:14.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: And to have a solution where the other person has to have the same thing or it doesn't work, I don't think that's what she's looking for.
[01:54:14.760 --> 01:54:15.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Am I right, caller?
[01:54:15.740 --> 01:54:16.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[01:54:16.800 --> 01:54:19.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, also you talk about this signal app.
[01:54:19.340 --> 01:54:21.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: So for text and voice, what about email?
[01:54:21.920 --> 01:54:23.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And is it really necessary?
[01:54:23.700 --> 01:54:28.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: You guys are fighting over whether the other person has the encryption app as well.
[01:54:28.540 --> 01:54:37.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that means I would have to tell all my friends, oh, okay, get this app so you can read my messages or hear my messages.
[01:54:37.620 --> 01:54:38.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's crazy.
[01:54:38.380 --> 01:54:48.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that's been the problem with a lot of encryption applications is basically having to tell people, you know, your keys and getting them to figure it out.
[01:54:48.400 --> 01:54:53.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And every time somebody sends me an encrypted message, there's a problem and we have to work it out.
[01:54:53.360 --> 01:54:55.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it just takes a very long time.
[01:54:55.400 --> 01:54:56.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: We need to get better at this.
[01:54:56.440 --> 01:54:58.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's about having layers of it, too.
[01:54:58.340 --> 01:55:03.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: And a lot of your operations, the way you work, it's specific.
[01:55:03.400 --> 01:55:05.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's specific to where you get your email.
[01:55:05.980 --> 01:55:11.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you're using a provider that's not necessarily handling your data in a good way, that could also be a vulnerability.
[01:55:11.960 --> 01:55:17.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's something you might have to build a little bit more to get exactly what you want.
[01:55:17.120 --> 01:55:22.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think what we all can agree on is we have a long way to go before this starts working the way we really want it to work.
[01:55:22.800 --> 01:55:22.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Rob?
[01:55:22.980 --> 01:55:27.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can say that Signal in particular has come a long way toward making it intuitive and easy to use.
[01:55:27.400 --> 01:55:30.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've used it for a long time since it was two separate apps, TextSecure and RedPhone.
[01:55:30.920 --> 01:55:32.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: But now it's a very simple thing.
[01:55:32.820 --> 01:55:37.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: If the other side doesn't have the app installed, it just sends them normal text messages and calls.
[01:55:37.800 --> 01:55:46.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's also very easy to send them a link to get the app, which is free and open-source and easy to use.
[01:55:46.340 --> 01:55:47.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, yeah, it's worth it, I think.
[01:55:47.680 --> 01:55:48.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're out of time.
[01:55:48.400 --> 01:55:51.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Caller, thank you for your interest and for sparking this discussion.
[01:55:51.620 --> 01:55:54.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'll keep looking into it, and hopefully you'll find what you're looking for.
[01:55:54.780 --> 01:55:55.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, there's lots out there.
[01:55:56.360 --> 01:55:56.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[01:55:57.980 --> 01:56:00.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we went through two hours pretty quickly.
[01:56:00.060 --> 01:56:05.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: One more time, the phone number to pledge, 212-209-2950.
[01:56:05.860 --> 01:56:12.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a variety of Off The Hook premiums there for your taking if you pledge a certain amount to support this radio station.
[01:56:12.880 --> 01:56:16.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Write to us, oth@2600.com.
[01:56:16.320 --> 01:56:17.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's our email address.
[01:56:17.840 --> 01:56:21.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, today is the anniversary of the death of John Lennon.
[01:56:21.820 --> 01:56:32.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or actually, 35 years ago today, the whole world was in mourning in a way that I think has not equaled since, in a kind of a very unified way.
[01:56:32.120 --> 01:56:46.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: And rather than do what all the other radio stations are doing and playing a John Lennon track, I'd like to play something from the person that he looked up to the most that got him through hard times, and that meant so much to him.
[01:56:46.720 --> 01:56:47.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll see you next week.
[01:56:49.620 --> 01:56:50.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
[01:56:50.760 --> 01:56:51.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good night.