Off The Hook - 2015-12-30

[00:00.000 --> 00:03.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:03.420 --> 00:04.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: The time is 7.01.
[00:04.980 --> 00:09.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Time, once again, for Off The Hook.
[01:36.010 --> 01:37.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the very good evening to everybody.
[01:37.870 --> 01:39.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: The program is Off The Hook.
[01:39.230 --> 01:42.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday.
[01:42.450 --> 01:43.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, Wednesday evening.
[01:43.550 --> 01:43.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry.
[01:44.350 --> 01:45.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm all mixed up.
[01:45.790 --> 01:47.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[01:48.170 --> 01:48.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi there.
[01:48.670 --> 01:49.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Happy New Year.
[01:49.290 --> 01:49.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Happy New Year.
[01:50.370 --> 01:51.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rob T.
[01:51.170 --> 01:51.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Firefly.
[01:51.950 --> 01:52.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[01:52.850 --> 01:53.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Happy New Year.
[01:53.550 --> 01:53.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Kyle.
[01:54.770 --> 01:55.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[01:55.830 --> 01:56.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: And Bernie S.
[01:57.310 --> 01:58.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Happy New Year from Philadelphia.
[01:59.310 --> 02:04.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, in case you didn't get it, New Year's is right on the horizon.
[02:04.350 --> 02:06.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it will be hitting us pretty soon.
[02:06.310 --> 02:10.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: In fact, we all have some predictions for the new year, I believe, we'll be getting into in just a little bit.
[02:11.130 --> 02:14.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: But first, a couple of things.
[02:15.650 --> 02:17.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: 2600 meetings, I believe.
[02:17.270 --> 02:18.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Some of them are taking place this Friday.
[02:18.970 --> 02:22.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Some aren't, because it's New Year's Day and some things are closed and some things are not.
[02:23.650 --> 02:28.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rob, I believe the Citigroup is open, so we are having meetings this Friday in New York City.
[02:28.530 --> 02:29.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: It does appear so.
[02:29.550 --> 02:31.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Citigroup meeting will still be happening on Friday.
[02:32.450 --> 02:38.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: In your local, if you're not in the New York area, check your local meeting pages and things to see what's going on for your meeting.
[02:38.710 --> 02:45.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you can go to www.2600.com/meetings to get a full listing of all the meetings.
[02:45.870 --> 02:53.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that is, you can go there if the powers that be allow us to tell you that we have some enemies.
[02:53.290 --> 02:55.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: We have some people who do not like us.
[02:55.670 --> 03:03.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And those of you who are trying to listen to the radio show over the last week or any radio show or really anything involving us might have noticed some difficulty getting through to us.
[03:03.390 --> 03:10.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's because we've been under relentless attack by somebody with lots of resources who apparently we really pissed off.
[03:10.290 --> 03:10.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: And good.
[03:10.710 --> 03:12.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm glad we pissed off the right people.
[03:12.650 --> 03:20.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: But the problem with that is that much of our site was unavailable for a good part of the week.
[03:20.390 --> 03:21.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it could happen again.
[03:21.530 --> 03:25.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're making changes so that this doesn't affect us quite as much.
[03:25.710 --> 03:41.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, you know, it's one of the reasons why I have such bad feelings about denial of service attacks, no matter what side they come from, because it's the last resort of people with no imagination.
[03:41.450 --> 03:43.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: They don't want to debate what you have to say.
[03:43.570 --> 03:45.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: They don't want to actually have a dialogue.
[03:45.550 --> 03:46.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: They just want to shut you down.
[03:46.950 --> 03:48.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: And lots of times they succeed in doing that.
[03:49.030 --> 03:50.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I don't consider that to be a victory.
[03:51.110 --> 03:57.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: In this particular case, I just want to thank all the people who have come forward to help us out while we've been going through this.
[03:58.410 --> 04:04.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a bit of a torment, but it's one that I think we've been dealing with in various creative, imaginative ways.
[04:04.890 --> 04:10.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: We had to reroute our website someplace else so that people can get news about what was going on.
[04:10.850 --> 04:19.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: But also, we're improving our infrastructure so that when this happens in the future, and it will happen again, we have more backups that we can go to.
[04:19.210 --> 04:21.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: We have more bandwidth that we can rely upon.
[04:21.350 --> 04:23.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: And more of a presence throughout the globe.
[04:23.310 --> 04:24.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that is an important thing.
[04:24.810 --> 04:35.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it also kind of speaks to what has happened to us over the decades, whether it be law enforcement or corporations or misguided individuals.
[04:35.410 --> 04:38.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Whenever we get attacked, we get stronger.
[04:38.390 --> 04:39.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: We come back strong.
[04:39.630 --> 04:41.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is true of hackers in general.
[04:41.290 --> 04:56.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: When they attempt to intimidate hackers or control them or limit them in any way, word gets out and things rapidly move in the other direction with even more force.
[04:57.270 --> 05:00.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that I consider to be a positive development.
[05:00.810 --> 05:04.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hopefully, people will be able to hear the show on the website this week.
[05:04.810 --> 05:05.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll see.
[05:05.450 --> 05:11.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll see if the people, person that we upset so much allows that.
[05:11.070 --> 05:16.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, you know, I find it interesting that in this day and age, such a thing still happens and is still possible.
[05:16.810 --> 05:23.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's so much that needs to be done on the Internet to make things more accessible.
[05:23.550 --> 05:31.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's very easy for those of us with lots and lots of bandwidth and power to cut off access to those without as much.
[05:31.430 --> 05:34.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Even people who have a lot of bandwidth still can get cut off.
[05:34.570 --> 05:46.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: And when we're talking entire countries and populations of people that are basically left without a source of news or the ability to go to the sites that they want to go to.
[05:46.970 --> 05:53.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: These are things we have to work upon in the years ahead and hopefully make it a bit more fair.
[05:53.930 --> 05:55.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that's where things stand.
[05:55.810 --> 05:58.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: You can always write to us, oth@2600.com.
[05:58.190 --> 05:59.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: Our emails are working fine.
[06:00.410 --> 06:05.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, Kyle, we've been going through a bunch of this, having all sorts of debates and conversations with people.
[06:05.830 --> 06:09.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've noticed a lot of people say, you know what the solution to this is?
[06:09.230 --> 06:13.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: The solution is to just move everything into the cloud and not have to deal with it anymore.
[06:14.150 --> 06:17.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, not run your own machine, have somebody else do it.
[06:17.310 --> 06:19.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Leave it to the experts, I think is the phrase you came up with.
[06:19.770 --> 06:26.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: That seems to be the theme lately of so many things that we've noticed technology-wise.
[06:27.290 --> 06:34.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: People want us to simply not configure our own hardware or software.
[06:34.530 --> 06:36.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let somebody else, let the expert take care of it.
[06:37.690 --> 06:47.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Any kind of technology that individuals might have been involved with in the past, best to either let an expert take care of it or to automate it completely.
[06:47.690 --> 06:51.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Seeing that more and more as a theme, and it's troubling.
[06:51.890 --> 06:56.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's troubling because you see normally intelligent people that buy into this.
[06:56.450 --> 07:03.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: There is nothing that compares to the thrill of running your own machine and how much you learn from doing that.
[07:03.430 --> 07:18.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you simply hand it over to some cloud-based system someplace, where you're just a little speck in their massive array of hardware, you get nothing from that except, yeah, some service.
[07:18.890 --> 07:21.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: You get service under their rules.
[07:21.330 --> 07:22.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: They can control you.
[07:22.130 --> 07:22.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: They can cut you off.
[07:22.950 --> 07:27.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: They can do whatever, but you don't learn anything about how systems work.
[07:27.130 --> 07:29.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: You don't learn how to design a better system.
[07:29.710 --> 07:33.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you don't get that thrill of seeing something work that you put together yourself.
[07:34.050 --> 07:35.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, truly.
[07:35.430 --> 07:37.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's a huge trend towards this.
[07:38.750 --> 07:41.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I kind of liken it to web mail a little bit.
[07:42.030 --> 07:55.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's kind of a bad parallel, but instead of writing being this sort of vast, diverse medium, the trend is towards homogeneity, where we just use services.
[07:55.570 --> 07:59.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's called infrastructure as a service, is really what we're talking about.
[07:59.470 --> 08:13.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: And what's gone on is it's become incredibly cheap to run these massive virtual server farms, basically, that a lot of different hosts provide.
[08:13.530 --> 08:23.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the options out there are equally as vast as far as different people that all want to host your stuff.
[08:23.310 --> 08:43.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because basically they buy bandwidth wholesale and they're trying to cover their costs, recoup their costs for that by creating a virtual host where you then are one of many on the actual physical infrastructure.
[08:43.730 --> 08:51.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I don't mind so much massive amounts of data being stored someplace, on a farm someplace.
[08:51.890 --> 08:59.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I do mind when people aren't learning, aren't learning how to set up a machine, aren't learning how to run an operating system themselves, they just leave that to somebody else.
[09:01.010 --> 09:16.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, it may sound like old school, but we're talking the 90s and post 2000 where people, kids would put together their own Linux boxes and figure things out and configure better.
[09:16.190 --> 09:16.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's still going on.
[09:17.030 --> 09:18.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Obviously, it's still happening.
[09:18.050 --> 09:19.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: But there is more pressure now.
[09:19.930 --> 09:26.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: More people saying that this kind of thing is a waste of time and you just leave it to the experts.
[09:26.330 --> 09:27.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: They'll do a better job.
[09:27.430 --> 09:28.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: It'll be cheaper.
[09:29.190 --> 09:32.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you wind up with a bunch of people that don't know how technology works.
[09:33.250 --> 09:34.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead, Bernie, and then Mike.
[09:35.070 --> 09:46.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just want to say also that another thing to consider about whether you want to host your own server or entrust it to a third-party are some really serious privacy implications.
[09:46.490 --> 09:46.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[09:47.230 --> 10:04.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Under federal law, under Supreme Court decisions, when you turn over your database to a third-party company to manage, you no longer have any Fourth Amendment rights, Fourth Amendment protections for that information.
[10:04.690 --> 10:13.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: It is then considered third-party business records, which law enforcement no longer needs a warrant to get a copy of.
[10:14.350 --> 10:15.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I'm sure you are.
[10:16.190 --> 10:25.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's one of the reasons you decide to have your own server with this information, your 2600 information and other information on it.
[10:26.270 --> 10:42.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, we're talking about the website in this particular case, which has public information, but it also has logs, which could be used to hurt somebody if they were from a place where going to a hacker site might cause them some kind of penalty.
[10:42.210 --> 10:45.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, yeah, we protect that and we want to be able to have control over that.
[10:45.530 --> 10:45.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mike.
[10:46.090 --> 10:49.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I agree with you, Bernie, and I think we need to fix the laws here.
[10:50.290 --> 11:06.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're, they're, they're, they're horribly broken in this regard, as we've discussed on the show many times, but I do think there's value in having the freedom to, you know, when you don't want to deal with setting up your own server, which takes time and effort and on an ongoing basis,
[11:07.010 --> 11:07.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: right, maintenance.
[11:09.710 --> 11:18.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: To be able to focus on the parts of the technology that are the most interesting to you, I think is extremely valuable and extremely freeing and extremely empowering.
[11:18.850 --> 11:34.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think it's great, you know, when people want to really dive into whatever level, if they want to dive into the lower levels and play with hardware, or if they don't want to do that, you know, deal with only the uppermost levels, the client facing stuff.
[11:34.870 --> 11:38.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that, that can be immensely empowering as well.
[11:38.370 --> 11:44.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't think it's fair to say, you know, that everyone must, you know, you host their own stuff where they're doing it wrong.
[11:45.090 --> 11:45.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Who said that?
[11:45.710 --> 11:47.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: Who said everyone must do anything?
[11:48.550 --> 11:56.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: You, you, you criticize the people who are, are moving away from it, which is implying that, like, uh, hosting your own stuff is better.
[11:56.010 --> 11:59.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: I say it's an unfortunate trend, especially in the hacker community.
[11:59.290 --> 12:00.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think that's a healthy thing.
[12:00.730 --> 12:11.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: If hackers, people who, who, uh, take pride in building and modifying and exploiting things, uh, turn it over to the experts and let them deal with it while they do something else.
[12:11.650 --> 12:13.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, hackers are still playing with telephones.
[12:13.630 --> 12:19.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: We should know how these things work, and we should be encouraging people to experiment with them and, and, and build better things.
[12:19.370 --> 12:23.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very difficult to experiment simultaneously at all levels of the stack.
[12:23.430 --> 12:26.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Technology is getting more and more complex and for a lot of good reasons.
[12:26.410 --> 12:37.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so, you can experiment with some, with level X of the stack a lot more freely, a lot more easily, a lot more quickly, if someone else is taking care of the other levels of the stack.
[12:37.730 --> 12:40.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's incredibly valuable a lot of the time.
[12:40.410 --> 12:45.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I, speaking personally, I enjoy, uh, running our own mail server.
[12:45.490 --> 12:46.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well then...
[12:46.430 --> 12:51.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: As opposed to so many others who, who let corporations peruse their mail and send them ads and things like that.
[12:52.010 --> 12:53.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's great to be able to have some control.
[12:53.470 --> 12:54.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's not for everybody, I know.
[12:54.970 --> 12:58.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's, it's, it's easy to turn it over to somebody else and let them do it.
[12:58.930 --> 13:04.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I just want people to be aware that there are options out there, and I think that's not being expressed enough.
[13:04.110 --> 13:09.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: People are told, this is the way it's done, and anything else is a big waste of time and old fashioned.
[13:09.830 --> 13:11.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I don't think that's right.
[13:11.570 --> 13:12.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Especially in the hacker world.
[13:12.650 --> 13:12.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rob?
[13:13.050 --> 13:21.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there, there's always been a certain amount of, uh, like the, the big, the big, uh, boom in the, in the publicly, in the publicly used web was when, uh, the average person got access.
[13:21.870 --> 13:26.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when people didn't want to run their own sites or figure out how to code their own HTML or whatever.
[13:26.190 --> 13:34.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we had things like geo cities and, uh, stuff like that, where people could just put up a page and, uh, contribute what they had without, uh, without knowing the nuts and bolts of it.
[13:34.410 --> 13:40.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, but yeah, there, there is always, there was always the people who, uh, who were rolling their own and doing it for themselves.
[13:41.190 --> 13:47.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: But nowadays, um, you could, uh, you could say that, okay, nobody's building their own servers anymore or to a, to a much lower degree.
[13:47.710 --> 13:56.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: But in another way, you have this whole Internet of things trend where people are just building all sorts of gadgets and trinkets and all of which have their own Internet connections and interactivity.
[13:56.730 --> 14:00.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, so, so maybe we're seeing a bit of that, uh, a bit of that hacker spirit in a different way now.
[14:01.250 --> 14:05.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe, uh, but do they understand how their own gadgets work, how they're put together?
[14:05.410 --> 14:06.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I mean, no one does.
[14:06.930 --> 14:11.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Literally zero people on the entire planet can tell you how a computer works at all levels.
[14:11.310 --> 14:13.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not at all levels, but, uh, just something, something beyond.
[14:13.830 --> 14:16.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: So people focus on the levels that they're most interested in.
[14:16.530 --> 14:23.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe you think that the level that you know the best is the most important one, but like, there's lots of levels are, are important to different people.
[14:23.350 --> 14:25.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's not only fine, but wonderful.
[14:25.890 --> 14:29.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: See, I, I, I'm so far away from a technical person.
[14:29.390 --> 14:30.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: You would not believe it.
[14:30.270 --> 14:33.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, but I still have an appreciation for how certain things work.
[14:33.390 --> 14:39.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know, uh, when something is going wrong, where to look, these are not difficult concepts at all.
[14:40.050 --> 14:46.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think it's important just like, you know, knowing first aid is something everyone should have a basic knowledge of.
[14:46.530 --> 14:51.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Knowing how your technology works, I think that's a good way to avoid being taken advantage of.
[14:51.710 --> 14:54.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because there are certainly a lot of entities out there that want to take advantage of this.
[14:56.650 --> 15:07.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, another thing I think that, uh, could be said is that, uh, you have a lot more flexibility in customizing things with creating your own systems like this.
[15:07.330 --> 15:23.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that the other thing that, the, the, so if you want to add something down the road, if you want to like add a massive sort of processing capability or some other sort of new type of hardware or, or capability, you can physically add that.
[15:23.110 --> 15:39.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you're, if you're, if you're hosted somewhere on a virtual machine or, um, or another type of, uh, sort of mass produced, uh, array of, of processing power, you don't get a real, as much of a say in that, I think.
[15:39.090 --> 15:45.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, and, and it's also, it's, it's, it's, it's, it basically reduces the overall diversity.
[15:45.510 --> 15:50.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I feel, I have a lot of different feelings about all these different things I'm kind of talking about.
[15:50.590 --> 15:57.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, um, that diversity is, I think, important individually for people that want to customize stuff.
[15:57.610 --> 16:06.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: But also, um, overall, it makes sameness sort of normal with everybody hosting, uh, in these spaces.
[16:06.410 --> 16:10.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: The innovation is sort of, as we said, left to experts.
[16:10.370 --> 16:18.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: And so individually, we don't have as much flexibility to customize and we're not exposed to a situation where that benefits us.
[16:18.530 --> 16:24.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to innovate because it's already sort of, uh, kept away from us in, in any way.
[16:24.130 --> 16:32.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I think overall, like as a group, we, we, uh, we lose out a little bit, uh, by, by deciding that it's too hard.
[16:32.850 --> 16:35.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Again, you know, I'm not, I'm not condemning it.
[16:35.010 --> 16:38.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's, it's, uh, it's a great accomplishment and it's useful for many things.
[16:38.450 --> 16:46.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: But just like old technology, new technology, if you dismiss one and just, uh, embrace the other, you are, you are losing something, you are destroying something.
[16:46.930 --> 16:50.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's, it's, it's not that one or the other, I think, is better.
[16:50.650 --> 16:55.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's that they are absolutely not, they are, they are not the same.
[16:55.290 --> 17:03.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and, and I think that, that, um, the awareness that you can kind of do your own thing and that, that some people still do that.
[17:03.590 --> 17:04.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think that's there.
[17:04.570 --> 17:10.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, kind of like what Mike said, that nobody knows entirely how a computer works.
[17:10.330 --> 17:24.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, these were some of the things that would expose you to how they work, uh, by having to, uh, take on some of these things and, and come up with, you know, what goes where and, and what you need and the sort of parameters and budgets and things like that.
[17:24.310 --> 17:37.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, it is time consuming and so on, but it's, uh, as you said, I think a bit gratifying for people that have kind of had a win or a accomplishment in, in implementing their own sort of setup.
[17:38.050 --> 17:38.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Absolutely.
[17:38.750 --> 17:41.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: It leads you to, uh, become good at other things as well.
[17:42.170 --> 17:48.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there, there's always that sort of joy of, uh, of a technical hobby and, uh, pursuing it and learning during the process and everything.
[17:48.290 --> 17:50.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, you know, hackers always love the car analogies.
[17:50.510 --> 17:59.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, uh, it's like the difference between somebody who just goes to the shop and buys a car and somebody who, uh, who builds a car from parts in their garage over the course of however long a time.
[17:59.570 --> 18:09.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, one of those people is driving around in something that they acquired and the other, like, has, has that experience and knowledge and, and the joy of, uh, of gaining, uh, you know, use of their work.
[18:09.590 --> 18:16.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess what I'm trying to say is we all have relatives who, who tell us at the holidays that, um, I don't know anything about technology.
[18:16.510 --> 18:18.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just do what I'm told.
[18:18.310 --> 18:21.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a complete moron when it comes to this.
[18:21.810 --> 18:27.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that's not true because a lot of people that assume they don't know anything about technology actually do know something.
[18:27.830 --> 18:31.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if they applied it a little bit, they would be able to say, hey, wait a minute, this doesn't make sense.
[18:32.170 --> 18:38.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: We can do it better by, by having this particular command instead of that one, or by arranging directories in this particular fashion.
[18:38.970 --> 18:43.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they might find out that they're not as incompetent as they claim they are.
[18:43.490 --> 18:47.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that does, that opens up all kinds of doors when, when, when people realize that.
[18:47.770 --> 18:54.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I, I just shudder to think that hackers of all people, uh, in the future saying, I don't know anything about that.
[18:54.210 --> 18:55.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to leave it to the expert.
[18:55.370 --> 18:57.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just don't see that going to a good place.
[18:57.790 --> 18:58.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[18:58.310 --> 19:09.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: And like competing for how cheap, and it's, it seems almost that like, well, I, you know, I have this obscure host here that, you know, I run my site from and it's, it costs me nothing.
[19:09.410 --> 19:13.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I get all this, you know, bandwidth and haha, I'm like so magical.
[19:13.410 --> 19:33.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, and it's like a competition to, to like reducing all possible costs without any sort of, um, well, because they don't care about that or, or have chosen to, to not really, um, build any of that themselves.
[19:33.290 --> 19:47.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I think that the focus on that, I mean, as a group, we, we then have less people that are capable and that discussion of how things work and, and, uh, and so on becomes like a niche thing.
[19:47.610 --> 20:00.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, I, I, I just think that there's some danger there because as, uh, Mike and Bernie pointed out, the laws, um, are not in your favor if something, uh, happens.
[20:00.150 --> 20:17.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: And also if they're like all this, okay, so the sameness and lack of diversity in systems is one thing, but if there is all this sameness, um, you're all sort of susceptible maybe to similar failures, especially in like a system that's like running a hypervisor.
[20:17.530 --> 20:29.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: So the actual equipment is, is, is sort of blind to the virtual machines and you're just simply one instance in like memory or something on that actual physical machine.
[20:29.770 --> 20:35.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'd be interested in what Bernie would, would say about, um, subpoenas on the physical hardware.
[20:35.870 --> 20:42.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, like if, if something is, uh, taken from our machine that we run, we would get notification.
[20:42.130 --> 20:45.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: The, the host would say, Hey, somebody wants to come and blah, blah, blah.
[20:45.490 --> 20:45.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[20:45.870 --> 20:51.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if you don't actually have any involvement with a physical machine, do you get notified?
[20:51.510 --> 20:52.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Like I'm curious.
[20:53.390 --> 20:54.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not true.
[20:54.930 --> 21:04.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, under certain circumstances, um, people that we know have had their machines that they own in data centers just disappear.
[21:04.670 --> 21:14.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, uh, friends at, uh, may first people link, uh, ran a server and, and they happen to just by coincidence have put a camera on their rack just a couple weeks before.
[21:14.750 --> 21:19.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's footage of, of, uh, you know, police officers in suits coming and taking their machine away.
[21:19.890 --> 21:25.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and, and, uh, as it turned out, the machine had no information at all on it.
[21:25.190 --> 21:27.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a, it was a big waste of everyone's time.
[21:27.410 --> 21:27.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[21:27.690 --> 21:29.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, yeah, the, the law is terrible.
[21:29.870 --> 21:32.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is designed to favor the people with power.
[21:32.250 --> 21:35.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: That, that's something we've discussed on this radio program many, many times.
[21:35.410 --> 21:45.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think the point though, is that, um, you see when your server goes away, you see when, when, uh, you know, uh, either a log tells you, or, Hey, a USB device just got, uh, plugged in.
[21:45.530 --> 21:55.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's something that you see, whereas in a virtual environment, uh, it's very likely you will know nothing about what's being copied or accessed or duplicated, uh, to another machine someplace else.
[21:56.090 --> 21:58.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, but, uh, Bernie, I believe, uh, there was a question for you.
[21:58.310 --> 21:59.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Your, your thoughts on this.
[21:59.490 --> 21:59.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, yeah.
[22:00.250 --> 22:04.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Kyle, uh, asked what I thought about, uh, uh, uh, the privacy implications of your hardware.
[22:04.650 --> 22:10.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mike, Mike just clarified that, that, you know, it doesn't matter about the hardware isti, the information on it.
[22:10.410 --> 22:13.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, if it's third-party, third-party information.
[22:14.210 --> 22:16.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Government can get it without a warrant.
[22:17.170 --> 22:28.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like if you've been trusted your, your server, whether it's email server, or web server to, uh, third-party in the cloud, um, hosted in the cloud, you can't, you, you have no say about the privacy.
[22:28.810 --> 22:33.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your fourth amendment rights to that, rights to, for the protection of information are out the window.
[22:33.730 --> 22:43.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you won't necessarily even know if, as Kyle pointed out, that you get a notification when government will go after that information.
[22:43.370 --> 22:44.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not necessarily.
[22:44.050 --> 22:56.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: We just had a guest on the other week where a client of his, the government, sent our guest a national security letter.
[22:56.310 --> 23:05.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the client wasn't even allowed to know that they were a target of a federal guest investigation and that information was going to be seized about them.
[23:05.230 --> 23:09.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you really lose a lot when you host your information in the cloud to a third-party.
[23:10.850 --> 23:25.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I agree with Emmanuel that you should at least try, if you care about these things at issue that we've been talking about, at least try and explore about how you can host it yourself, either on your own property or in a data center.
[23:25.330 --> 23:35.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Emmanuel, you, I mean, some of the 2600 servers are hosted on machines that you own in another location as well as in your own.
[23:36.050 --> 23:40.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: So what have you, I'm sure you've researched the privacy implications of that, haven't you?
[23:40.490 --> 23:40.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Absolutely.
[23:41.090 --> 23:45.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the thing is with machines that we always have full access to the machines.
[23:45.650 --> 23:52.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: They always are real machines and we're able to change things to our heart's content.
[23:52.210 --> 23:55.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: Where the location, it could be all different sorts of places.
[23:56.650 --> 24:03.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: But yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there, learning how something works and then maybe letting it go and saying, OK, I know how this works.
[24:03.710 --> 24:04.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: This can be done better someplace else.
[24:05.050 --> 24:09.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: But at least having that basic understanding, that's really all I'm trying to say here.
[24:10.350 --> 24:10.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah.
[24:11.090 --> 24:25.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Certainly, I think what we want to impart out of all of this is that you should educate yourself and know the kinds of services and the details of whatever you're doing as far as hosting some kind of site on the Internet.
[24:26.090 --> 24:36.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think the other risks we talked about, like a machine being taken and those kinds of realities, I mean, that's something, A, you would notice.
[24:36.090 --> 24:45.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's a risk, absolutely, of having a system in a location that isn't necessarily your house.
[24:45.150 --> 24:55.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, even in your house, somebody could come and take your machine or other events like that could hamper your ability to do what you want.
[24:56.310 --> 24:58.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, I don't know.
[24:58.290 --> 25:10.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that there's still the risk of, like, if you have an intrusion detection system on your computer, if someone plugs into that machine, the physical machine will alert you through that system, right?
[25:10.950 --> 25:13.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or you can create those kinds of systems.
[25:13.530 --> 25:21.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if it's, say, hardware that you don't really have access to, you're just in sort of an instance in this hypervisor, how would you be alerted?
[25:21.870 --> 25:26.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: How would you run an intrusion detection system on hardware that isn't actually real hardware?
[25:27.190 --> 25:28.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you don't even own it.
[25:29.010 --> 25:29.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not yours.
[25:29.850 --> 25:33.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that's the theme that we seem to be embracing more and more.
[25:33.130 --> 25:34.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: You don't own a DVD.
[25:34.510 --> 25:35.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: You license it.
[25:35.470 --> 25:38.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: You don't own electronic books.
[25:38.390 --> 25:41.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: You just have a license to read them for a certain period of time and in certain conditions.
[25:42.870 --> 25:48.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: More and more, we're being told we don't own or control things that we always owned and controlled before.
[25:49.190 --> 25:51.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that's something we really need to resist.
[25:51.610 --> 26:00.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's why it's important to, right now, due to the way the Internet works, if you want to put up your own server and have it do whatever you want, you've got that option.
[26:01.010 --> 26:03.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, whether you know how, if you don't know how, you can learn how.
[26:03.850 --> 26:04.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you can put it up.
[26:04.950 --> 26:05.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have that option.
[26:05.650 --> 26:07.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: And while we have that option, it's something valuable.
[26:08.070 --> 26:13.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: The biggest strength of the information environment we have is that the info is out there if you want to look for it.
[26:13.330 --> 26:18.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can teach yourself how to do something or you can go, you know, figure it out and do it.
[26:18.290 --> 26:20.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: And right now, we can still do that if we want to.
[26:20.910 --> 26:22.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're saying right now we can still do it.
[26:22.570 --> 26:27.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you envision, is this part of your prediction, that soon we won't be able to do this anymore?
[26:27.310 --> 26:27.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: It might be.
[26:28.090 --> 26:29.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: When we get to that, I'll maybe go into that.
[26:29.610 --> 26:30.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[26:30.290 --> 26:34.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we did threaten to give predictions for the new year.
[26:34.870 --> 26:37.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we've each had a little bit of time to think about something.
[26:37.550 --> 26:42.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that we'll have a good variety here.
[26:42.270 --> 26:43.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I also want to open this up to listeners.
[26:43.770 --> 26:51.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you have predictions, what's going to happen in the next year, technology-wise, hacker-wise, let's try to keep it in that ballpark.
[26:52.050 --> 26:54.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Our phone number is 718-780-8888.
[26:54.690 --> 27:03.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I would not call that right now because if you do, you'll wind up taking a tour of the radio station's phone system because I think you get about 10 rings and it bounces someplace else.
[27:03.930 --> 27:05.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we still don't know where that is.
[27:05.810 --> 27:07.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: But we're trying to figure it out.
[27:07.550 --> 27:09.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be a pretty boring tour, too.
[27:09.510 --> 27:10.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: It'll just sound like ringing.
[27:10.630 --> 27:12.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, until it hits a voicemail somewhere.
[27:12.790 --> 27:14.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: Then you have to hang up and try again.
[27:14.770 --> 27:20.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: But the number, when we say we're taking phone calls, 718-780-8888 is the phone number.
[27:20.610 --> 27:25.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Give it about 10 or 12 rings and then hang up and try again if you want to wind up on our switchboard.
[27:25.530 --> 27:28.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: My prediction... I'll be first, I guess, since it was my idea.
[27:29.650 --> 27:33.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think... I think in the next year, hackers will be blamed.
[27:34.010 --> 27:41.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not necessarily implicated, but certainly blamed for some phenomenal thing that goes on with the 2016 presidential election.
[27:41.090 --> 27:54.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Whether it be electronic voting that somehow had some sort of snafu in it or a polling system that the numbers don't make any sense or nonsense candidates.
[27:54.990 --> 28:00.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Something involving hacking and something involving the 2016 presidential election.
[28:00.270 --> 28:03.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: They will collide and it'll be all over the news.
[28:03.590 --> 28:05.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's my feeling.
[28:05.730 --> 28:06.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Kyle, do you want to go next?
[28:07.130 --> 28:07.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[28:08.010 --> 28:08.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[28:08.530 --> 28:10.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have two predictions.
[28:10.830 --> 28:12.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: The assignment was for one, but go ahead.
[28:12.830 --> 28:13.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[28:13.570 --> 28:13.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[28:14.090 --> 28:14.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, it's okay.
[28:14.930 --> 28:16.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hackers don't follow instructions, I know.
[28:16.550 --> 28:26.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I think virtual reality will, again, be much hyped and go nowhere as far as people using it.
[28:26.230 --> 28:29.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, you can't say something will continue to do what it's been doing.
[28:30.110 --> 28:31.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's got to be a prediction of something different.
[28:31.930 --> 28:32.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[28:33.230 --> 28:33.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[28:34.070 --> 28:39.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think journalism will be respected again in 2016.
[28:39.450 --> 28:40.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow, that's pretty radical.
[28:41.290 --> 28:42.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Journalism will be respected.
[28:42.590 --> 28:44.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Any reason why you think that might happen?
[28:46.410 --> 28:57.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that we're going to continue to find out things from leaks and we're going to continue to cover things that hadn't been covered in the past because of more and more independent journalism.
[28:57.430 --> 28:59.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have high hopes for it.
[28:59.910 --> 29:00.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[29:00.210 --> 29:01.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I hope that works out.
[29:01.190 --> 29:01.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bernie, how about you?
[29:02.910 --> 29:16.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I hope Kyle's prediction comes true, but when Edward Snowden leaked a bunch of classified documents to journalists, I don't think journalism got a much greater opinion in the view of many people.
[29:17.630 --> 29:25.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think a lot of journalists, press outlets got blamed for informing the public.
[29:25.250 --> 29:27.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bernie, let's not tear down our predictions.
[29:27.370 --> 29:28.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, I'm not tearing down.
[29:28.170 --> 29:29.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm just saying what happened.
[29:29.750 --> 29:33.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Everyone has their own predictions and whether they come true or not, we'll reassemble in a year.
[29:34.050 --> 29:35.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hope it happens, I said.
[29:35.650 --> 29:42.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in any case, I think that just a week before last, we didn't really get a chance to talk about it in the show.
[29:42.710 --> 29:53.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just a week before last, the Senate and the Congress and the Senate passed the big omnibus spending bill, the federal budget.
[29:53.470 --> 29:59.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: And part of that, which really snuck in at the last minute, was this Cybersecurity Information
[30:02.830 --> 30:05.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sharing Act, right, the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act.
[30:05.790 --> 30:06.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that a clever way of saying that?
[30:07.250 --> 30:09.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, well, CISA, I think a lot of people call it.
[30:10.110 --> 30:19.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's a clever way of calling this bill about cybersecurity when it's really about the information sharing, the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act.
[30:19.770 --> 30:37.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what the information sharing is, is it allows any third-party, like the one we've just been talking about on this show, that host information for themselves or others, if they have any cybersecurity incidents, whether it's a hack or something they thought didn't look right,
[30:38.110 --> 30:51.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: they are allowed to turn over all that information, including the data itself, to law enforcement and intelligence agencies without there being any warrant or anything for it.
[30:51.670 --> 31:14.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I predict, and one of the hallmarks of this CISA bill to pass the slip through the budget, is that consumers, mere people like you and us, don't no longer have the right to sue these companies for allowing their systems to be made vulnerable to all kinds of unauthorized access.
[31:14.810 --> 31:24.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: So as long as they let the government or intelligence agencies know that there was a security problem.
[31:24.430 --> 31:41.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I predict that in the coming year, since this passed a couple weeks ago, I predict in the coming year we will see incidents where consumers have no recourse whatsoever, no class action lawsuits, no individual lawsuits will be allowed against companies who have major hacks on their site,
[31:41.310 --> 31:47.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: on their data, and it's private data belonging to you or me or anybody, I predict it's going to really hurt people.
[31:48.210 --> 32:04.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we're not going to have any idea of what information about ourselves is being shared by companies when they are really poor about their security and they tell law enforcement, hey, we had a hack, here's all our information, poke through it all you want.
[32:04.190 --> 32:05.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't care.
[32:05.230 --> 32:05.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: We can't get sued.
[32:05.770 --> 32:12.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Your prediction for 2016 is that a law that was just passed will continue to have already been passed?
[32:12.290 --> 32:12.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, no.
[32:13.170 --> 32:21.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: But my prediction is the ramifications of that law that was just passed a week before last is that it will be where I agree it's not a big change.
[32:21.590 --> 32:24.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: It will be a bigger change from a liability standpoint.
[32:24.270 --> 32:28.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now companies don't have to worry about getting sued when they turn over our private information to third parties.
[32:29.310 --> 32:33.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they don't have to have a now security letter thrown at them or anything.
[32:33.450 --> 32:36.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now all I got to say is, hey, we think there is a hack.
[32:36.410 --> 32:43.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: And now if they tell law enforcement about it, they can't be sued for their poor security.
[32:44.730 --> 32:49.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bernie, I don't want to return your prediction to you.
[32:49.610 --> 32:51.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's not my purpose here.
[32:51.470 --> 32:53.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I just want to ask for some clarification.
[32:53.410 --> 33:08.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe could you come up with a hypothetical specific, you know, not a real company, but to say something like this will happen involving a company and a person, something like that?
[33:08.650 --> 33:08.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sure.
[33:09.310 --> 33:14.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Suppose a big medical, so an insurance company.
[33:14.630 --> 33:18.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Insurance company that has, a health insurance company, here's a good example.
[33:18.310 --> 33:22.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: A health insurance company that has a whole lot of really private information about your personal health.
[33:22.910 --> 33:41.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like what other, what health diseases or medical treatments you're getting, very private stuff is protected under some federal law now, HIPAA, now doesn't have that protection if that company, their big hospital chain or whatever it is, insurance company,
[33:41.350 --> 33:52.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: if they get hacked through their own negligence, and they tell law enforcement, hey, we just got hacked, and we've notified you and fulfilled our obligation under this new bill.
[33:53.110 --> 34:05.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, law enforcement can paw through all your private health information, and you have no say in that, and despite HIPAA, you have no say in that, and you can't even sue the insurance company or the hospital chain.
[34:05.550 --> 34:06.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're in present tense, Bernie.
[34:07.010 --> 34:08.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: You need to be in future tense.
[34:08.750 --> 34:09.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well...
[34:09.190 --> 34:10.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're saying how it is now.
[34:10.390 --> 34:10.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[34:10.830 --> 34:12.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: You won't be able to sue.
[34:12.310 --> 34:14.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: I tanked this bill that passed a few days ago.
[34:14.110 --> 34:26.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: You won't be able to sue the insurance company or a health care providing corporation for revealing all your private medical information to law enforcement or intelligence agencies.
[34:27.170 --> 34:27.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[34:27.350 --> 34:29.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: That almost seems like a certainty, though, with this law.
[34:29.750 --> 34:33.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm trying to find out if you think something extraordinary might happen.
[34:34.110 --> 34:35.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think it's extraordinary.
[34:35.630 --> 34:44.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's an extraordinary thing that now we're really going to be... I predict that what will happen soon is those ramifications of it.
[34:44.850 --> 34:47.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: It hasn't happened yet, but the bill just passed a few days ago.
[34:48.430 --> 34:55.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: I predict people are going to wake up and become very angry that this thing happened under their noses really quickly.
[34:55.890 --> 35:04.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: This information sharing bill was passed in the dark of night without any deliberation at all by our legislators because it was tacked under the...
[35:04.450 --> 35:04.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[35:04.550 --> 35:05.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now you're in past tense.
[35:05.870 --> 35:06.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, fine.
[35:06.770 --> 35:07.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a prediction.
[35:07.670 --> 35:09.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: The prediction is that people are going to become very angry.
[35:10.110 --> 35:11.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope your prediction comes true, Bernie.
[35:11.470 --> 35:11.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, boy.
[35:11.950 --> 35:12.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[35:12.190 --> 35:12.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know what?
[35:12.690 --> 35:14.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: We need to move on.
[35:14.150 --> 35:15.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, Rob, it's your turn.
[35:15.630 --> 35:16.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a prediction for us?
[35:16.770 --> 35:17.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: I do have a prediction.
[35:18.450 --> 35:27.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have a prediction about what we know as sort of the deep web or the dark web, that little slightly shadier corner of the Internet.
[35:27.370 --> 35:32.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Shady as in you can't really see what's going on there quite as much.
[35:32.170 --> 35:42.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's going to become more of a mainstream thing because right now it's still kind of populated with people that have the technical, I think, chops to make it work.
[35:42.270 --> 35:43.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's still a bit complex.
[35:43.550 --> 35:54.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's only going to get easier, I think, maybe since we're dealing with the fallout of things like CISA now and other things that sort of want to take the options away from us to do what we want to do with the net.
[35:55.070 --> 36:03.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's going to become more of a thing, more of a normalized thing rather than a thing that's just people know about because scary news reporters talk about it.
[36:04.070 --> 36:07.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's going to be a thing that more people use maybe on a day-to-day basis.
[36:07.650 --> 36:09.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: It'll be like, I'm just on my way to the dark web.
[36:09.970 --> 36:11.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll catch up with you later.
[36:11.130 --> 36:17.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, can you think of something that an average person might use the dark web for that doesn't involve blowing up a city?
[36:17.770 --> 36:22.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe an average person might use the dark web to arrange the sale or purchase of something that's legal.
[36:23.650 --> 36:24.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Interesting.
[36:24.410 --> 36:24.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[36:24.610 --> 36:26.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'd like to see if that comes true.
[36:26.890 --> 36:27.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mike, what do you have?
[36:27.730 --> 36:29.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a very short prediction.
[36:29.530 --> 36:33.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: My prediction is that 2016 will be the year of Linux on the desktop.
[36:36.370 --> 36:36.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[36:37.170 --> 36:37.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[36:38.010 --> 36:39.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's really what you came up with.
[36:39.230 --> 36:39.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's my prediction.
[36:41.090 --> 36:42.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: It must've been a real hidden school.
[36:43.330 --> 36:43.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[36:43.990 --> 36:48.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, now our phone number is 718-780-8888.
[36:49.070 --> 36:55.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you have a prediction for the new year, technology-wise, in the hacker world, or anything else, please give us a call.
[36:55.470 --> 36:56.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'd like to hear from you.
[36:56.890 --> 36:59.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Again, 718-780-8888.
[36:59.290 --> 37:10.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that note about the phone, if it rings more than a dozen times, best off hanging up and calling back until we get the wandering phone line symptom fixed here at the radio station.
[37:11.730 --> 37:12.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[37:12.310 --> 37:16.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: My prediction was going to be that Pearl 6 would be released, but apparently it actually happened.
[37:16.470 --> 37:17.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, you have predictions, really.
[37:18.930 --> 37:20.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: They're... I don't know.
[37:20.530 --> 37:22.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't have time to really go into it.
[37:23.430 --> 37:23.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[37:23.970 --> 37:25.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Waiting for the phone to actually light up.
[37:25.370 --> 37:27.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I'm not sure if... is the phone working?
[37:27.630 --> 37:28.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: You guys were here last week.
[37:28.990 --> 37:29.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: It worked last week.
[37:30.170 --> 37:31.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe people don't have any predictions.
[37:31.770 --> 37:32.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that... is that possible?
[37:33.550 --> 37:33.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: No?
[37:33.990 --> 37:34.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: That would be sad.
[37:34.930 --> 37:35.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[37:36.830 --> 37:39.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just figured we'd get blasted with phone calls.
[37:39.270 --> 37:42.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's why I'm kind of... I don't have anything to say.
[37:42.550 --> 37:45.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as soon as we start to talk about anything else, people will call.
[37:45.870 --> 37:46.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[37:46.110 --> 37:47.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll start talking about something else then.
[37:47.430 --> 37:49.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have a whole... I have a whole bunch of stories here.
[37:50.330 --> 38:00.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, apparently the company known as AVG was hacked and all of there... a lot of data that people trusted them with.
[38:00.570 --> 38:01.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Nine million people, in fact.
[38:02.650 --> 38:07.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Their information now is out there because they thought this company was going to protect them.
[38:08.050 --> 38:10.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: AVG confirmed the flaw, said it created a quick fix.
[38:10.650 --> 38:14.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: As soon as we were highlighted to it, our first and foremost policy was to get a fix to market.
[38:15.790 --> 38:19.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: But the episode underscores the frustration many people feel about computer security.
[38:19.610 --> 38:24.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: You think you're doing all the right stuff, keeping all your software up to date, installing antivirus protection.
[38:25.110 --> 38:31.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: AVG, a computer security company, offers this software promising to help keep you safe while surfing the web.
[38:31.150 --> 38:35.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: So you should be able to trust them, according to this article on CNET.
[38:35.270 --> 38:37.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's a rude awakening.
[38:37.690 --> 38:53.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the first time... Apparently, if you installed AVG in addition to the alleged security software, you would also get... they would install an extension into your web browser that would reset your homepage to go... or not your homepage, but reset your search engine and all this stuff so that AVG could make more money.
[38:54.130 --> 38:56.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they did it, which is terrible enough.
[38:56.670 --> 39:06.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they did it in such a way that other websites could then get access to your data because you were now running an AVG extension that you didn't know about in your browser.
[39:07.310 --> 39:10.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: The security industry really has, I think, some answering to do.
[39:10.970 --> 39:15.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, if people are afraid to call, let me open up this a little bit more.
[39:15.330 --> 39:16.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't have to be a prediction.
[39:16.330 --> 39:17.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: It can be a wish.
[39:17.170 --> 39:17.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: How about that?
[39:17.730 --> 39:19.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: A wish for 2016.
[39:20.090 --> 39:22.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: You think that might be a little more palatable?
[39:23.050 --> 39:23.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: It might be.
[39:23.730 --> 39:27.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: I did just try calling the switchboard and it started blinking from my phone.
[39:27.130 --> 39:31.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I hung up, of course, because I don't want to take up a phone line, but it does seem to be working.
[39:32.110 --> 39:32.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: So give us a call.
[39:33.070 --> 39:33.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we have no listeners.
[39:33.770 --> 39:34.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's basically what's happened now.
[39:34.850 --> 39:36.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: 718-780-8888.
[39:36.810 --> 39:39.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, we know that you can call us now.
[39:39.170 --> 39:40.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe we're off the air.
[39:40.250 --> 39:41.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: That could be too.
[39:41.350 --> 39:42.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: And off the Internet.
[39:42.350 --> 39:44.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe we're being denial service attacked on all fronts.
[39:44.990 --> 39:45.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can hear us.
[39:46.170 --> 39:48.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, we're in the same room, but...
[39:49.890 --> 39:51.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: 718-780-8888.
[39:52.150 --> 39:52.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Here's a call.
[39:52.930 --> 39:54.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see who's out there.
[39:54.150 --> 39:54.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[39:54.670 --> 39:55.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[39:55.730 --> 39:56.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're in the same room, but...
[39:56.650 --> 39:58.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, please turn down your radio.
[39:59.070 --> 39:59.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello?
[40:00.610 --> 40:00.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[40:01.030 --> 40:02.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a prediction or a wish?
[40:03.130 --> 40:03.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[40:03.730 --> 40:03.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[40:03.970 --> 40:05.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[40:05.730 --> 40:09.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: I believe that...
[40:10.890 --> 40:38.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: I believe that the airlines are going to see a serious problem with terrorists hacking in to all the new air buses that are being created, all the new planes that are being created that are so sophisticated, the 777s, the 757s, all these airlines and aircraft that are being made that have sat links,
[40:38.390 --> 40:39.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: satellite uplinks.
[40:39.890 --> 40:53.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because from what I heard, I was watching an airplane documentary and they suspect that terrorists were actually bringing down airliners using a sat link, you know, connection with the Internet.
[40:53.530 --> 40:55.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: But there is no proof of that.
[40:55.590 --> 40:59.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, you know, I predict that that will be a serious issue.
[40:59.590 --> 41:00.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's a good prediction.
[41:00.790 --> 41:09.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I gotta say, you know, if they are short-sighted enough to stick navigational controls on something that's accessible from the Internet, it will happen at some point.
[41:09.770 --> 41:10.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[41:11.090 --> 41:15.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: There are ways of having... you can have technology, but have it be secure and isolated.
[41:16.030 --> 41:18.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I see a lot of times where shortcuts are taken and that doesn't happen.
[41:20.110 --> 41:20.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[41:20.810 --> 41:38.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the thing is, is that that Malaysian airways, uh, airlines of flight that, that disappeared, excuse me, they were saying that possibly that that was a terrorist act, even though if it was a terrorist act, they will keep it in complete secrecy to, uh,
[41:38.130 --> 41:40.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: not cause mass hysteria.
[41:40.230 --> 41:54.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, and if they did cause mass hysteria, it would actually bring, uh, the, everything will come crashing down the airline industry, the airport, TSA, uh, transportation, uh, you know, people will be afraid to fly.
[41:55.050 --> 41:55.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[41:55.550 --> 41:56.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: More so than, than today.
[41:57.250 --> 41:59.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, listen, we're going to move on to another call cause we do have a bunch now.
[41:59.590 --> 42:00.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: So thanks for that.
[42:00.290 --> 42:01.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's a, that was a good prediction.
[42:01.310 --> 42:01.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[42:01.690 --> 42:02.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[42:04.790 --> 42:05.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go get your phone.
[42:05.890 --> 42:06.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hurry up.
[42:07.290 --> 42:07.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: You there.
[42:09.070 --> 42:09.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[42:09.410 --> 42:10.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: We don't have time for people to find their phones.
[42:11.110 --> 42:11.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[42:11.590 --> 42:12.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[42:13.810 --> 42:14.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[42:14.790 --> 42:15.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[42:15.150 --> 42:16.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a prediction or a wish for us?
[42:16.830 --> 42:17.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I do.
[42:17.850 --> 42:31.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: I, I predict that enough computer savvy people have listened to this show and the next show, uh, will have, uh, bought WBAI memberships through your show and they'll be able to vote in the Pacifica election online.
[42:31.710 --> 42:31.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[42:32.250 --> 42:39.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they'll be able to depose the people who are sabotaging it by doing research at something like Pacifica in exile.
[42:40.490 --> 42:43.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so that's my prediction and my hope.
[42:43.470 --> 42:45.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, um, um, we take it for what it is.
[42:45.730 --> 42:50.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you for, uh, for calling in with that, uh, somewhat biased, uh, prediction.
[42:50.890 --> 42:51.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[42:51.570 --> 42:52.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[42:52.490 --> 42:52.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[42:52.870 --> 42:53.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a prediction or wish?
[42:54.570 --> 42:54.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[42:54.890 --> 42:56.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Could I ask a question, please?
[42:56.270 --> 42:56.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[42:56.510 --> 42:57.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, yes, go ahead.
[42:57.710 --> 43:06.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'm kind of new to the computers in terms of using it, you know, very central to me because I'm in a industry now where I really need it.
[43:06.930 --> 43:11.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I tell you, it leaves me very frustrated, you know, and angry.
[43:11.810 --> 43:13.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Will I eventually overcome that?
[43:13.430 --> 43:16.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Will that tone down the time going and I keep messing with it?
[43:16.250 --> 43:22.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, uh, it, it, it can, um, what, what do you find that, that frustrates and angers you the most?
[43:23.030 --> 43:27.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just, you know, like when they, when I go to somewhere, they tell me to go somewhere else.
[43:27.330 --> 43:29.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's just, you know, I have a brother.
[43:29.090 --> 43:30.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's very good at it.
[43:30.310 --> 43:33.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he told me to follow the links, you know, I don't know.
[43:33.790 --> 43:34.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm kind of new at it.
[43:34.830 --> 43:41.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and in the past, when I was working, I was working two jobs and it just always left me in a hurry.
[43:41.570 --> 43:45.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if something didn't come right away, it kind of frustrated me, you know?
[43:45.730 --> 43:47.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I haven't overcome that yet.
[43:47.750 --> 43:48.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm not working.
[43:48.750 --> 43:50.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think Rob might have something that's helpful.
[43:50.710 --> 43:52.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: I predict that it does get easier.
[43:52.770 --> 44:03.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've, I've known many people in your position and, uh, generally a good thing to do is check your local library, uh, and your local high school, see if they have some classes that you can take for a basic sort of computer literacy.
[44:03.910 --> 44:09.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, that is a thing that, uh, that a lot of places have available and it can get you very comfortable very quickly with, uh, what you need.
[44:10.250 --> 44:10.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[44:10.810 --> 44:11.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[44:11.250 --> 44:11.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[44:11.610 --> 44:12.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good luck with that.
[44:12.610 --> 44:14.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: And don't follow all the links.
[44:14.750 --> 44:15.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: A lot of them don't go to nice places.
[44:15.890 --> 44:16.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[44:16.390 --> 44:17.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[44:17.250 --> 44:18.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a wish or a prediction for us?
[44:19.310 --> 44:22.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yes, I, I, I have actually some very sad predictions.
[44:22.990 --> 44:24.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we're open to those.
[44:24.630 --> 44:24.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[44:25.090 --> 44:25.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[44:25.290 --> 44:33.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the first one is that, um, Julian Assange will be kidnapped by the U.S. government in 2016.
[44:34.190 --> 44:37.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've been hearing that prediction every year now for the last, well, okay, fine.
[44:37.550 --> 44:48.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, but the thing is, he's approaching his, his five years statute of limitations and, and, and the, and the Swedes are going to back off and he's going to step out and then poof, he'll be back here in the U S.
[44:48.490 --> 44:52.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: But won't that just legitimize everything he said and make the U.S. government look extremely bad?
[44:52.950 --> 44:53.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: The U.S. government doesn't care.
[44:53.910 --> 44:54.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[44:54.270 --> 44:54.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[44:54.510 --> 44:58.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: The second one is the, uh, is, um, Kim.com.
[44:58.970 --> 45:05.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: He won't be kidnapped, but he will be extradited to the United States and it will be a great show.
[45:06.770 --> 45:07.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[45:07.210 --> 45:08.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, that's a good prediction.
[45:08.370 --> 45:09.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: That is a good, that's a, it's a sad prediction.
[45:10.150 --> 45:10.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're right.
[45:10.550 --> 45:17.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, uh, if that were to happen, it would be the, this show, well, I want to say of the century, but of the year in New York city.
[45:17.590 --> 45:18.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be a very big show.
[45:18.670 --> 45:19.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be a mega show.
[45:20.830 --> 45:21.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[45:21.710 --> 45:22.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[45:22.370 --> 45:25.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: The, the, the worst one though, and this is the horrible prediction.
[45:25.590 --> 45:26.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, you have more.
[45:26.290 --> 45:26.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[45:26.790 --> 45:27.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's one last prediction.
[45:28.150 --> 45:28.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's hear it.
[45:28.790 --> 45:31.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is Donald Trump will become president.
[45:31.190 --> 45:32.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[45:32.530 --> 45:35.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Look, we asked people to be realistic here.
[45:35.270 --> 45:36.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: It gets worse.
[45:36.190 --> 45:37.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: How can it get worse?
[45:37.610 --> 45:40.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: With Putin and then Snowden will be kidnapped.
[45:41.330 --> 45:41.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow.
[45:43.030 --> 45:45.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's how bad it's going to be in 2016.
[45:45.570 --> 45:47.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're pretty, pretty dark, sir.
[45:47.590 --> 45:49.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, uh, I'm going to think about these.
[45:50.210 --> 45:50.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow.
[45:51.090 --> 45:51.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[45:51.450 --> 45:52.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks for your call.
[45:52.430 --> 45:52.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[45:52.710 --> 45:53.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry about that.
[45:53.830 --> 45:54.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, it's all right.
[45:54.470 --> 45:54.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's all right.
[45:55.270 --> 45:56.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Pessimism is what we deal with.
[45:56.930 --> 46:00.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: A Trump Putin meeting that, that can't go well for anybody.
[46:01.690 --> 46:03.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Nobody's mentioned Li-Fi yet.
[46:03.730 --> 46:06.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, yeah, let's take another call first and we can maybe get into that.
[46:06.830 --> 46:07.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[46:07.350 --> 46:08.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[46:08.310 --> 46:09.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a prediction or wish?
[46:10.030 --> 46:10.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[46:10.870 --> 46:11.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, thank you so much.
[46:12.050 --> 46:21.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I want to say, I love the creativity of your audience, but I think the most important thing is that, uh, we're going to try to have another Chattanooga a Mr. Rove.
[46:21.650 --> 46:24.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it may happen on more than one side.
[46:24.270 --> 46:25.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: It may be Republican and Democrat.
[46:26.270 --> 46:36.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I was listening to, um, Jill Stein the other day, talking about the fact that people who had excessive college debt could really tip the election with the green vote.
[46:36.430 --> 46:43.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I wouldn't be surprised if the African American community and women would back this at this time.
[46:44.030 --> 46:52.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if we could get the computer community into this, uh, and doing a hell of a lot of poll watching, we might have a fair, honest election.
[46:53.050 --> 46:59.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that is a prediction that, uh, I don't think many people have come up with, but, um, thanks for sharing it with us.
[46:59.490 --> 46:59.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[47:00.030 --> 47:00.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bye.
[47:00.410 --> 47:00.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Take care.
[47:01.330 --> 47:03.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, Kyle, what's this, uh, Li-Fi you refer to?
[47:03.970 --> 47:10.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, no, uh, we were talking about planes and there was, uh, a couple articles about, uh, Li-Fi being introduced on planes.
[47:10.270 --> 47:12.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm wondering if that'll happen next year.
[47:12.250 --> 47:21.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I'll have to predict that we all have to get new, uh, phones so that we can use, um, Li-Fi, which if you don't know about it, you, you probably hear about it.
[47:21.890 --> 47:26.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, it's basically, um, data over light, like, uh, LED lighting.
[47:27.250 --> 47:29.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so there's some interesting things going on there.
[47:29.770 --> 47:34.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, that came to mind when he was talking about, uh, things going on in planes.
[47:34.390 --> 47:37.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think you'll see that on planes before, um, anything else.
[47:37.430 --> 47:37.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[47:37.590 --> 47:39.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's a good additional prediction from you.
[47:39.370 --> 47:39.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you.
[47:39.790 --> 47:43.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I can pull out my old laptop from the nineties with the infrared port on it, and it'll be useful again.
[47:44.050 --> 47:44.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not exactly.
[47:44.890 --> 47:45.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[47:45.090 --> 47:46.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: I wouldn't pull that out on a plane.
[47:46.710 --> 47:47.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, good evening.
[47:47.190 --> 47:47.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[47:49.110 --> 47:49.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello?
[47:49.590 --> 47:49.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[47:49.850 --> 47:50.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a prediction or wishlist?
[47:50.650 --> 47:51.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I have a hope or something.
[47:51.990 --> 48:05.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't expect it to happen, uh, this year, but maybe it'll eventually happen just like it eventually happened that you could connect, uh, could dock, you've got modems on computers without having to install them, you know, which took a long time, you know,
[48:06.030 --> 48:08.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: from 1979 to about 1995.
[48:09.110 --> 48:18.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe they'll get voice control of these very small devices, because they don't have keyboards, they don't have mouse, there's no mouse, or not normally a mouse.
[48:19.290 --> 48:21.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Even with your finger, you can't even use your finger.
[48:21.390 --> 48:22.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's impossible to use.
[48:22.570 --> 48:24.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's very difficult to use these kinds of things.
[48:24.410 --> 48:24.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[48:24.830 --> 48:34.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you think that voice, voice, uh, technology and control is going to really take off and be a lot better and, uh... I think it will take off, but I don't know when it's going to happen.
[48:35.390 --> 48:35.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Got it.
[48:35.830 --> 48:36.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: It could happen.
[48:36.790 --> 48:43.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, it could happen, you know, anytime when somebody's doing something, but it's been delayed because the technology is already there.
[48:44.110 --> 48:44.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's been there for years.
[48:45.070 --> 48:45.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah.
[48:45.730 --> 48:50.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, um, speech technology, there's a lot of disciplines involved with that kind of stuff.
[48:50.950 --> 48:53.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, artificial intelligence and, and on and on and on and on.
[48:53.930 --> 48:54.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh...
[48:54.410 --> 48:56.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, well, we'll make that your prediction for 2016.
[48:56.310 --> 48:57.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, wait a second.
[48:57.190 --> 48:57.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that's good.
[48:57.410 --> 48:58.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's another one thing I want to tell you.
[48:58.590 --> 48:58.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[48:59.050 --> 49:01.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know about Putin and, and Trump?
[49:01.890 --> 49:08.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Trump claimed in one debate that he'd met Putin because they'd been on the same show, that same episode of 60 Minutes.
[49:08.870 --> 49:10.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they, they didn't even meet.
[49:10.210 --> 49:10.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: They were on the same...
[49:10.770 --> 49:11.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, no, of course not.
[49:11.490 --> 49:11.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[49:12.230 --> 49:17.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, he wants to, he wants to just make things confusing enough, right?
[49:17.290 --> 49:18.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's conflating those things.
[49:18.770 --> 49:22.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's mixing up, yeah, he was on it, but yeah, it was two completely different segments.
[49:22.970 --> 49:23.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: He doesn't know him very well.
[49:23.850 --> 49:24.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[49:24.270 --> 49:25.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah, exactly.
[49:25.650 --> 49:26.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[49:26.250 --> 49:29.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's conflating being on a show with actually meeting someone.
[49:29.570 --> 49:31.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can we not give this man any more airtime?
[49:31.110 --> 49:33.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, we're kind of veering off into a ditch here.
[49:33.250 --> 49:33.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, yeah, I know.
[49:33.890 --> 49:34.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[49:34.110 --> 49:36.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I just wanted to say because somebody else mentioned it.
[49:36.430 --> 49:37.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, any other predictions, sir?
[49:38.190 --> 49:44.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, I mean, well, yeah, I would like to get back, uh, to back PC board or something like that, you know, something like that on the Internet.
[49:45.210 --> 49:45.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Get back what?
[49:46.190 --> 49:48.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Something like the way the BBSes used to work, you know.
[49:49.270 --> 49:57.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, you know, some kind of like public forum where people post and... Yeah, yeah, they can post, they can direct messages to particular people that everybody sees them.
[49:57.710 --> 49:57.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[49:58.430 --> 49:59.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, all right.
[49:59.770 --> 50:01.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: But different than today's social networks.
[50:01.850 --> 50:02.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[50:02.750 --> 50:02.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[50:03.530 --> 50:04.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, we're gonna move on.
[50:04.230 --> 50:05.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks, uh, thanks for that call.
[50:05.350 --> 50:05.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's take this one.
[50:05.890 --> 50:06.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[50:06.350 --> 50:07.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on Off The Hook.
[50:08.610 --> 50:08.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello?
[50:09.670 --> 50:10.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, this is the computer show.
[50:10.870 --> 50:11.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, it's not.
[50:11.530 --> 50:12.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's the hacker show.
[50:13.230 --> 50:14.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry, the hacker show.
[50:14.470 --> 50:17.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, uh, did you have a prediction or a wish for us for 2016?
[50:18.870 --> 50:20.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, can I have a question?
[50:20.170 --> 50:20.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that possible?
[50:20.990 --> 50:21.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, okay.
[50:22.450 --> 50:26.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, I'm, uh, what is the dark web?
[50:26.390 --> 50:36.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: And two, what is this secondary layer of Internet that I hear about where only a certain amount of select individuals are allowed to use it?
[50:36.830 --> 50:39.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ah, uh, you might be referring to Internet two.
[50:40.230 --> 50:40.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[50:41.030 --> 50:42.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, which is the sequel to the Internet.
[50:43.210 --> 50:45.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, well, Rob, why don't you discuss the dark web?
[50:45.730 --> 51:02.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, the dark web, just, uh, just to totally scratch the surface, is, uh, it's basically, it's basically, um, uh, a part of the Internet that is behind certain types of encryption and, uh, obscuring technology that, that, uh, basically to a degree protects the identities of the people,
[51:02.030 --> 51:05.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: uh, putting up the information or, or viewing the information.
[51:06.050 --> 51:08.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, Rob, how can one get started?
[51:08.430 --> 51:09.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's the dark web?
[51:09.770 --> 51:19.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: One can get started by, by doing a web search on the engine of your choice for, for a dark web, uh, intro, I think, or, or things like that, because there are a lot of great sites out there.
[51:19.470 --> 51:24.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, I can't name any off the top of my head, but that will, that will, uh, that will get you started.
[51:25.010 --> 51:27.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, also tour browser is a thing to get hold of.
[51:27.750 --> 51:32.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, that, that is a browser that will basically, it's basically the dark web in a box for you.
[51:32.630 --> 51:32.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[51:33.030 --> 51:41.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I think when people, um, uh, assume that the, that tour and the dark web are analogous, it kind of does a disservice to what tour is really all about.
[51:41.610 --> 51:46.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: It does, uh, tour, tour is a technology that's used in the dark web, but it's not itself the entire dark web.
[51:46.990 --> 51:51.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, sort of like wheels are a technology that it, that's used on trains, but not all things with wheels are trains.
[51:52.050 --> 52:00.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, but yeah, it, that will, that will get you started on, uh, protecting yourself a little more and, uh, getting, getting your intro to, uh, what goes on, on the dark web.
[52:00.550 --> 52:01.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know much about Internet too.
[52:01.890 --> 52:04.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: I do know It's used at many educational institutions.
[52:04.790 --> 52:13.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's got a tremendous amount of bandwidth, and it's restricted use, but it's used for research, and I'd like to use it someday.
[52:13.690 --> 52:15.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's also tied in with Internet exchanges.
[52:15.770 --> 52:21.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's basically how they use it for regional connectivity, and then the universities connect to the exchanges.
[52:21.170 --> 52:23.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's a huge experimental project.
[52:23.470 --> 52:25.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: The UW's involved in other institutions.
[52:26.190 --> 52:30.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure to what degree it's still a thing, but it's not separate from the Internet.
[52:30.670 --> 52:41.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just allows universities to communicate with each other more quickly, but it's not like there's this great secret thing going on on the Internet, too, that the rest of us can't get access to.
[52:41.350 --> 52:42.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, how do you get access to it, then?
[52:43.370 --> 52:44.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's part of the Internet.
[52:45.430 --> 52:46.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you reach it?
[52:46.350 --> 52:47.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you reach what?
[52:47.290 --> 52:47.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Internet, too.
[52:47.930 --> 52:48.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you reach it?
[52:48.730 --> 52:50.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: You walk onto a university campus.
[52:50.950 --> 52:53.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: So you have to go to a university campus to get onto Internet, too.
[52:53.810 --> 52:59.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you won't really notice anything different, unless you're trying to exchange large amounts of data with other universities.
[52:59.330 --> 53:05.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, my question is, can I, in my home, connect to Internet 2 using my Internet connection?
[53:06.730 --> 53:08.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that's a question most people will have.
[53:08.490 --> 53:09.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't really know how to answer that.
[53:10.050 --> 53:12.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can definitely connect to more information about it.
[53:12.610 --> 53:12.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[53:13.350 --> 53:16.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: See, this is the kind of obscurity that we need, yeah.
[53:16.930 --> 53:17.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[53:17.690 --> 53:18.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[53:18.750 --> 53:19.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[53:19.710 --> 53:20.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[53:20.350 --> 53:22.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll ask my question and then listen off air.
[53:22.550 --> 53:23.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Two-part prediction.
[53:23.950 --> 53:38.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: I unfortunately have a darker view of American public, so I think that the Internet problems that you're making or making us aware of will be amplified and there'll be a greater crackdown on our Internet access.
[53:39.650 --> 53:42.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then a question that you could address a few quickly.
[53:42.550 --> 53:49.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: I put on a VPN on one of my devices, and I got a message from them saying, you've reached your limit of bandwidth.
[53:49.870 --> 53:53.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: So if someone could explore that briefly, I'd greatly appreciate it, and he will do it with it.
[53:54.090 --> 53:54.090]  Ciao.
[53:54.430 --> 53:55.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[53:55.250 --> 53:56.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: There could be a couple things there.
[53:56.250 --> 54:04.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Generally, encryption, like is used with VPNs, takes a little bit more than regular sort of clear communications.
[54:04.590 --> 54:07.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm kind of oversimplifying it a lot.
[54:08.250 --> 54:12.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that is possible that bandwidth could have spiked a bit when you implemented this.
[54:12.550 --> 54:28.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's also true with some hosting and even hardware-type services that you get a certain amount of VPN connections and so on and so forth, which could also be factored into whatever kind of billing they do.
[54:29.070 --> 54:30.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: But that's also a little bit general.
[54:30.970 --> 54:43.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think the more likely situation is the second one, that the VPN provider itself is only willing to give you a certain amount of data, either for free or for whatever you're paying, and used it all up.
[54:43.630 --> 54:44.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's fairly common.
[54:44.830 --> 54:46.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, that's it for us.
[54:46.130 --> 54:47.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're pretty much out of time tonight.
[54:47.310 --> 54:56.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Again, reminders, 2600 meetings may be taking place this Friday in your location if the venue you go to is open on New Year's Day.
[54:57.330 --> 55:00.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if that's not the case, it will take place the week afterwards.
[55:01.350 --> 55:05.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we believe our meeting here in New York City is taking place this Friday.
[55:05.970 --> 55:07.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: So maybe we'll see you there.
[55:07.350 --> 55:07.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good night.