Off The Hook - 2016-03-09

[00:00.000 --> 00:00.520]  Okay.
[00:00.840 --> 00:02.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I really have got to be there.
[00:02.440 --> 00:03.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like the best.
[00:03.280 --> 00:04.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the personal computer show.
[00:07.980 --> 00:11.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is Jordan McLean, Deputy Director for Make Music New York.
[00:11.860 --> 00:19.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Spend an hour with me investigating the public and hidden lives of music makers and presenters on the show we're calling Making Music.
[00:20.760 --> 00:23.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Join us every Friday in March from 2 to 3 p.m.
[00:23.500 --> 00:26.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: on 99.5 WBAI.
[00:26.500 --> 00:28.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: In partnership with Make Music New York.
[00:31.670 --> 00:34.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:34.930 --> 00:36.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: The time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:37.190 --> 00:38.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Time for Off The Hook.
[00:43.910 --> 01:05.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call We couldn't get much worse Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst I hope that's understood Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:31.130 --> 02:32.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:32.470 --> 02:33.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:33.650 --> 02:36.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:36.470 --> 02:37.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:38.150 --> 02:38.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi there.
[02:38.590 --> 02:39.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: Happy Wednesday.
[02:40.170 --> 02:40.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[02:40.710 --> 02:41.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rob T.
[02:41.130 --> 02:41.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Firefly.
[02:41.750 --> 02:42.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[02:42.990 --> 02:43.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Kyle.
[02:44.010 --> 02:46.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you hear all this weird noise?
[02:46.910 --> 02:48.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not the fire engines.
[02:48.170 --> 02:48.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: You hear that?
[02:48.830 --> 02:49.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[02:49.450 --> 02:49.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I do.
[02:51.170 --> 02:52.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know...
[02:52.050 --> 02:55.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like crumbly, electrical, static-y noise.
[02:56.350 --> 02:56.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, hang on.
[02:56.970 --> 02:58.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to try and isolate this.
[02:59.010 --> 02:59.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[02:59.450 --> 02:59.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was it.
[03:00.150 --> 03:01.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's this channel here.
[03:01.350 --> 03:01.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: So whoever...
[03:01.930 --> 03:02.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[03:02.510 --> 03:04.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Whoever has mic four, you no longer have mic four.
[03:05.150 --> 03:05.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mic four is dead.
[03:06.350 --> 03:06.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[03:06.530 --> 03:06.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[03:07.170 --> 03:08.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, again, Mike, Rob T.
[03:08.930 --> 03:09.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Firefly, Kyle.
[03:10.030 --> 03:10.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[03:10.510 --> 03:11.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Bernie S.
[03:11.890 --> 03:13.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:13.750 --> 03:16.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we are on tonight for...
[03:16.130 --> 03:19.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, it's not much better, but I think I might be the only one hearing this right now.
[03:20.490 --> 03:24.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're on for a regular hour this week as we battle the board.
[03:25.770 --> 03:33.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and, uh, we'll be able to, uh, take, uh, listen to phone calls, talk about various things going on in the hacker world and, uh, and other, uh, arenas.
[03:33.870 --> 03:45.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Rob, I, I know, uh, you are following up on something involving, uh, the upcoming HOPE conference, uh, with, um, some people might have had trouble, uh, registering rooms in, in the hotel, but I believe we have that fixed.
[03:46.010 --> 03:46.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was, yeah.
[03:46.930 --> 03:53.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I've been getting, uh, notes here and there that, uh, people had had trouble finding, uh, rooms for the hotel.
[03:53.230 --> 04:06.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the hotel was saying it was sold out one of the days, uh, at one point, at another point, uh, it was saying that there were no room rates for the, for no conference rates for the rooms, but, uh, is all that, uh, are we sounding as bad as we're sounding to ourselves,
[04:07.010 --> 04:09.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: to the people, you know, because right now I'm just hearing nothing but static.
[04:10.030 --> 04:21.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think you just flatlined me, but, uh, yeah, we're not, uh, I, I see my, I see my voice registering, but, um, someone needs to monitor air and tell us how bad we sound on the air and I don't know how to do that.
[04:22.250 --> 04:23.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Mike, you're texting somebody.
[04:23.710 --> 04:24.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how that's going to help.
[04:24.750 --> 04:26.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to text someone with the radio.
[04:26.210 --> 04:28.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, okay, why don't you just go outside and listen to the radio.
[04:28.290 --> 04:30.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a radio in the room next door.
[04:30.330 --> 04:31.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: Crazy talk, it'll never work.
[04:31.450 --> 04:34.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, okay, this is, welcome to the 21st century, folks.
[04:34.770 --> 04:36.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Bernie, you're the only one that sounds decent among us.
[04:36.650 --> 04:38.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't you talk for a little while while we try and figure this out?
[04:38.590 --> 04:40.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you sure you're not frying eggs there?
[04:40.070 --> 04:40.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what it sounds like.
[04:41.390 --> 04:42.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so you're hearing it too.
[04:43.250 --> 04:53.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hear it, but maybe I'm, I'm just hearing it through the board, whether it's going on the air or not, I, I guess that it is, but anyway, um, well, we want to talk about, uh, some news issues.
[04:53.870 --> 04:55.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that what we want to talk about now?
[04:55.450 --> 04:55.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure.
[04:56.330 --> 04:56.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[04:57.030 --> 05:18.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, um, I saw an encouraging story today that it, I really can't even say the word on the air, uh, Ed Snowden described the FBI's claim that it could not access the information in this, uh, infamous, uh, iPhone 5S, is it, or 5C, um, uh, Ed Snowden says what the FBI says,
[05:18.870 --> 05:24.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: says they're unable to do that is bull something, and we can't say that word on the air because of the FCC.
[05:26.470 --> 05:31.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we've been claiming that for weeks now that we believe the FBI could already get this information out of the iPhone.
[05:32.290 --> 05:36.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, it's just nice that the, it's nice to know that Ed Snowden agrees with us.
[05:39.000 --> 05:42.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And maybe I've lost you, because I don't hear anything but frying eggs now.
[05:43.280 --> 05:46.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, Bernie, we're, we're trying to fix this, and we sound awful whenever we talk.
[05:46.900 --> 05:47.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why we're trying not to talk.
[05:47.940 --> 05:48.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[05:48.520 --> 05:50.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I will, I will talk over the, the frying eggs.
[05:51.500 --> 06:02.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, um, I can actually, uh, read, uh, read what Snowden, uh, said, what, sounds that one word that, uh, that we can't say on the radio because of, uh, because of the FCC.
[06:03.520 --> 06:08.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, uh, Ed Snowden made an announcement, I believe, on Twitter.
[06:08.980 --> 06:10.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm trying to bring up my computer here.
[06:10.520 --> 06:11.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bear with me.
[06:11.440 --> 06:19.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, yes, Snowden claims, uh, Snowden says, F.B.I.'s claim it can't unlock the San Bernardino iPhone is bull something.
[06:19.520 --> 06:21.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, this is an article in the Guardian.
[06:21.620 --> 06:33.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: It says, Ed Snowden, the whistleblower whose NSA revelation sparked a debate on mass surveillance, has waded into the arguments over the F.B.I.'s attempt to force Apple to help it unlock the iPhone 5C of one of the San Bernardino shooters.
[06:34.080 --> 06:35.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: The F.B.I.
[06:35.080 --> 06:45.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: says that only Apple can deactivate certain password, certain passcode protections on the iPhone, which will allow law enforcement to guess the passcode by using only brute force.
[06:46.100 --> 06:54.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, talking via video from, uh, Moscow to the Common Cause Blueprint for a Great Democracy Conference, Snowden said, quote, The F.B.I.
[06:54.080 --> 06:57.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: says Apple has, quote, the exclusive technical means to unlock the phone.
[06:58.140 --> 06:59.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Respectfully, that's bull.
[06:59.960 --> 07:00.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
[07:01.080 --> 07:08.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, Snowden then went on to tweet his support for the ACLU, uh, report saying that the F.B.I.'s claims in the case are fraudulent.
[07:09.620 --> 07:11.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, good.
[07:11.260 --> 07:12.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Some good, uh, good news about that.
[07:13.880 --> 07:15.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think the courts are, I think the F.B.I.
[07:15.920 --> 07:22.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: is losing in the court of public opinion on this case, because it seems like almost everybody is, uh, is speaking up.
[07:23.140 --> 07:25.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: For, uh, uh, against the F.B.I.
[07:25.460 --> 07:37.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: and for, uh, uh, uh, the idea that, uh, the government should not be able to force, uh, hardware and software companies to put backdoors in, uh, to our products that we use so they can read and hear everything.
[07:38.220 --> 07:38.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[07:38.840 --> 07:41.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Bernie, you can, you can stop talking now for, I can't even hear myself now.
[07:42.220 --> 07:44.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I, it sounds worse to me now.
[07:44.340 --> 07:45.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: It sounds worse to you.
[07:45.320 --> 07:45.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[07:45.540 --> 07:45.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's good.
[07:45.800 --> 07:45.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[07:46.240 --> 07:49.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I've just been told that we're not supposed to be using this board.
[07:49.420 --> 07:53.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and it's the only board that we have, but it's not designed to be used.
[07:53.900 --> 07:54.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[07:54.500 --> 07:56.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not designed as prolonged.
[07:57.120 --> 07:58.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, but you know what?
[07:58.300 --> 08:00.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're on 24 hours a day, and I don't know what we're supposed to do now.
[08:00.720 --> 08:02.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Should we all just call into the show and talk on the phone?
[08:02.680 --> 08:03.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's really...
[08:03.500 --> 08:03.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: There you go.
[08:04.320 --> 08:04.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[08:04.580 --> 08:06.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Set up that Comrex thing, and we could get, do that.
[08:07.040 --> 08:07.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is embarrassing.
[08:08.420 --> 08:08.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[08:08.880 --> 08:12.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, uh, Bernie, I have no idea what you were just talking about, because we were trying to troubleshoot this, uh, this board.
[08:13.160 --> 08:19.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I was said recently about this, uh, iPhone kerfuffle.
[08:19.180 --> 08:20.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: You didn't use the word he used, did you?
[08:20.900 --> 08:21.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did not.
[08:21.740 --> 08:23.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I censored the second part of the word.
[08:23.740 --> 08:24.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: What was the phrase, though?
[08:25.740 --> 08:26.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bull, hmm.
[08:27.280 --> 08:27.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[08:28.780 --> 08:29.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[08:29.680 --> 08:30.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bull, bull sugar.
[08:30.740 --> 08:31.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[08:31.220 --> 08:33.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, there's no need to, uh, boulder dash.
[08:34.060 --> 08:34.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[08:34.460 --> 08:36.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, uh, can you, can you hear me at all?
[08:36.820 --> 08:43.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I think it's clear that, uh, the court battle being fought here is not about this one case.
[08:43.080 --> 08:47.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's about setting a precedent, even though they're denying it's a precedent or, or something.
[08:47.900 --> 08:59.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, and the government wants the ability to make these sorts of demands in the future with less public, uh, input than, than they're making now.
[08:59.640 --> 09:06.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we, so I, I think it's sort of irrelevant, uh, almost what the FBI is currently technically able to do.
[09:06.640 --> 09:10.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Bernie, is that the only story you, uh, mentioned regarding the, uh, the Apple, uh, issue?
[09:11.480 --> 09:20.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, well, I, I, I did mention that, uh, um, that, uh, this seems to parallel the whole CALEA thing in 94.
[09:21.080 --> 09:25.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Back then, the FBI didn't really make their intentions that public.
[09:25.920 --> 09:43.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: There wasn't much public discourse about the FBI's, uh, successful attempts to get all telephone companies to install hardware and software at the central office, which is to allow law, FBI and other law enforcement agencies to directly tap in and listen to any telephone conversation in the United States.
[09:43.560 --> 09:49.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but, uh, you know, that sort of just went with a, went over with a whimper and, and it was approved.
[09:49.640 --> 09:54.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, we have much more, uh, communication with the public about, about these issues.
[09:54.640 --> 09:56.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's, there's online communication.
[09:56.240 --> 10:00.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was not as much of that going on in 1994, before the web existed.
[10:00.660 --> 10:04.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And now, there's so much, there's so many people talking about this now.
[10:04.560 --> 10:11.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, even Woz was talking about it on a, one of these late night comedy shows talking about, hey, this is, this is ridiculous.
[10:11.260 --> 10:14.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: The FBI picked the worst possible course, uh, case law.
[10:14.460 --> 10:15.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: They could have.
[10:16.040 --> 10:16.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um...
[10:16.440 --> 10:19.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, was anybody surprised that Woz is going to side with Apple?
[10:19.640 --> 10:22.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, no, but I, I don't think he really cares.
[10:22.200 --> 10:27.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think he's spoken out against Apple on, on, in some issues, but this isn't really about Apple.
[10:27.260 --> 10:34.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think this is about, um, I think Woz, certainly if he ran some other company that they have, I think Woz is just taking an objective view on this, frankly.
[10:35.140 --> 10:38.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think he's siding with Apple, uh, because he has a lot of Apple stock.
[10:39.700 --> 10:45.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, he's siding with Apple because, uh, he, he thinks this is, uh, uh, an overreach by the government.
[10:46.160 --> 10:47.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a question of, of stock.
[10:47.320 --> 10:52.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a question of knowing the company, knowing, knowing the ideals, knowing what, uh, what it is they want to do, knowing the people.
[10:52.620 --> 10:57.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think, uh, he'd be on the, I'm not surprised he's on the same page as, as the people at Apple.
[10:57.660 --> 10:58.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not either.
[10:59.040 --> 10:59.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, okay.
[10:59.560 --> 11:09.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there was an interesting, um, um, release of, um, of statements, uh, concerning this whole, uh, uh, Apple issue that we talked about at length last week.
[11:09.540 --> 11:14.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but it's, um, this is what I've been waiting for, something a bit more, uh, more relevant.
[11:14.680 --> 11:28.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, as, as you might know, the court fight between, uh, Apple and the FBI has, um, has prompted a whole slew of letters, legal briefs, um, from outside parties, ACLU, EFF, et cetera, uh, tech companies, privacy groups of all sorts.
[11:28.560 --> 11:36.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, but in the past week, there is a powerful letter that came from a collection of racial justice activists, including Black Lives Matter.
[11:36.380 --> 11:46.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: The, uh, letter focused on potential civil rights abuses, uh, should the FBI gain the power to conscript a technology company into undermining its own user's security.
[11:46.840 --> 11:47.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, now here's a quote.
[11:48.080 --> 11:49.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: One need only look to the days of J.
[11:49.920 --> 11:58.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Edgar Hoover and wiretapping of Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. to recognize the FBI has not always respected the right to privacy for groups it did not agree with.
[11:58.420 --> 12:13.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: That, that, uh, was written by the signatories, which included arts and music, nonprofit, beats, uh, rhymes and relief, the Center for Immediate Justice, A Gathering for Justice, Justice League NYC, uh, Sean King, Black Lives Matter co-founder and Black Alliance for Justice Immigration Executive Director,
[12:13.620 --> 12:14.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Opal Tometi.
[12:15.180 --> 12:17.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and those tactics have not ended, they argue.
[12:17.540 --> 12:26.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Many of us as civil rights advocates have become targets of government surveillance for no reason beyond our advocacy or provision of social services for the underrepresented.
[12:26.860 --> 12:36.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and yeah, you know, this is, we don't hear this enough and that's really what it's all about, are people that are the true victims of these kinds of overreaches.
[12:36.600 --> 12:43.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we all hear what the tech companies say and, and what the lawyers say, but, you know, we need to hear from the people more often, right?
[12:44.600 --> 12:45.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Quite, quite so.
[12:45.700 --> 12:54.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, it's, it's worth remembering that, uh, it's worth remembering these, uh, these past struggles that have happened and it's easy to look back on sort of historical missteps of the authorities in the old days.
[12:54.940 --> 13:06.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, you know, the, the, uh, you know, the institutional racism that existed, uh, 50 years ago, uh, as opposed to that, which exists now, um, things like McCarthyism and, uh, you know, the anti-communist hearings and things like that.
[13:06.340 --> 13:12.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And just look back on all this stuff and go, how quaint, you know, thank goodness we've moved on to be all that, but we've moved on beyond that, all that.
[13:12.400 --> 13:18.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, the fact of the matter is that we basically have the same authorities in place now and, uh, they just have a lot more We have more toys to play with.
[13:19.220 --> 13:24.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we need to realize how it is they want to play with them and whether or not that's okay with us.
[13:24.860 --> 13:26.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they're asking for more, right?
[13:26.480 --> 13:28.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: More powers and authority.
[13:29.820 --> 13:32.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think this court case matters?
[13:33.000 --> 13:40.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: I was talking to someone the other day and expressed the opinion that this is really a win-win situation for the FBI.
[13:40.140 --> 13:42.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: If they win the court case, then they get the power.
[13:42.540 --> 13:49.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: That way, if they lose the court case, which actually seems somewhat likely, because their legal argument is really weak, in my view.
[13:50.360 --> 13:55.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: But then they can just go to Congress and say, hey, Congress, you should pass a law to give us these powers.
[13:55.360 --> 13:58.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: We tried to get them without a law, but we failed.
[13:59.420 --> 14:03.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think there's hope for actually preventing the FBI from these powers?
[14:03.320 --> 14:10.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think what this case is, is basically the FBI dipping its toe into the water and seeing what the temperature is.
[14:10.920 --> 14:19.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because our reaction to this, the passion with which we resist this kind of a thing, I think that will dictate how they proceed in the future.
[14:20.060 --> 14:31.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: If they know there's insurmountable opposition to this kind of activity they want to engage in, then I don't think they're going to try quite as overtly.
[14:31.620 --> 14:32.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they'll still try.
[14:32.680 --> 14:33.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're always going to keep trying.
[14:34.440 --> 14:42.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: But if not enough people respond to this, if not enough people object, or if there are people saying, yeah, you know, you got to catch those terrorists.
[14:42.280 --> 14:45.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: We all should give over, you know, the data of our phone unless we have something to hide.
[14:46.200 --> 14:50.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: If that is the prevailing attitude, then you can bet next week they'll have something else on the table.
[14:51.340 --> 14:54.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a key factor here is the prevailing attitude.
[14:54.280 --> 15:00.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, now, as opposed to 50 years ago, we have things like massive online campaigns for or against things.
[15:00.240 --> 15:08.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have the ability for an issue like this to generate an immediate and loud public response in whatever direction it's going to be.
[15:09.160 --> 15:24.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we've seen it in the past with things like SOPA and PIPA, where huge campaigns get going, you know, right up until the point where the big players, companies start weighing in with a stake in it and giving out their opinions.
[15:24.480 --> 15:29.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then what happens when people stop caring is that they just try the same thing again and win.
[15:29.040 --> 15:32.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, what happens is, you know, we can talk about SOPA and PIPA and things like that, and people don't know what we're talking about.
[15:32.820 --> 15:41.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: People who haven't been paying attention for the past few years or people who are new to the scene, and they get discouraged because of that, because it just seems too overwhelming.
[15:41.640 --> 15:48.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's part of the tactic, is that they keep hitting with one thing after another, and we have to constantly be vigilant and fighting.
[15:48.180 --> 15:53.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's overwhelming for people that are just trying to get their heads around it in the first place.
[15:55.560 --> 15:55.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel?
[15:56.260 --> 15:56.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Barney.
[15:56.720 --> 16:12.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: What Rob was just touching on reminds me that the people in Congress, I think, care most about keeping their jobs in Congress, staying on the gravy train, the congressional gravy train.
[16:12.700 --> 16:19.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they backtrack seriously with the whole grassroots movement against the SOPA bill.
[16:20.340 --> 16:23.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it was at the Stop Online Piracy Act.
[16:24.160 --> 16:29.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was really named very disingenuously, in my opinion.
[16:30.040 --> 16:33.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: But in any case, they seriously backtracked on that.
[16:33.200 --> 16:39.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, did the copyright holder, did the copyright industry come back, content industry come back, and try to do it again later?
[16:39.660 --> 16:40.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course they did.
[16:40.380 --> 16:42.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're going to, as you said, they're going to keep trying more and more.
[16:42.500 --> 16:52.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, I think, with enough critical mass, I think, not just the Black Lives Movement, it's just really interesting that strange bedfellows are all getting together on this thing.
[16:52.640 --> 17:00.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Edward Snowden, the Black Lives Matter movement, the hacker community, the free speech community, the right-wing, the left-wing.
[17:00.360 --> 17:05.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of people are weighing in on this issue, and it's really interesting to see how this is going to evolve.
[17:05.500 --> 17:10.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: It may be that this isn't going to be... I don't think in this election, Lear, this is going to get to legislation.
[17:11.180 --> 17:15.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it's going to have to wait until the next president, and it'll be interesting to see what happens then.
[17:16.200 --> 17:18.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, what I'm worried about is that they don't need legislation.
[17:18.800 --> 17:19.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: They'll just figure out...
[17:19.600 --> 17:29.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's a story that has been passed around about the FBI quietly changing its privacy rules for accessing NSA data on Americans, meaning the FBI can just kind of peruse NSA data.
[17:29.740 --> 17:30.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have to ask anybody.
[17:30.800 --> 17:31.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have to tell anybody.
[17:32.300 --> 17:34.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's no legislation involved in that.
[17:34.340 --> 17:34.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are no laws.
[17:34.980 --> 17:35.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no C-SPAN hearings.
[17:36.380 --> 17:41.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: These things are constantly happening behind closed doors, and we have to be aware of them.
[17:41.420 --> 17:42.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to fight back in one way or another.
[17:42.960 --> 17:51.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, the only way we're going to be able to do that is if we join forces with people we disagree with vehemently on other things, because this is something that affects everybody.
[17:52.040 --> 18:02.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And one way you can help is by talking to people, maybe explaining some of these stories to people that might not really know anything about it, or think that it affects them.
[18:03.340 --> 18:17.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: So do that if you have a friend that may not know about it, or someone you might be able to influence, and they might be passionate about it because you know them that well, but they just haven't been exposed to it.
[18:17.260 --> 18:18.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: How about parents?
[18:18.640 --> 18:21.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Many of us have parents or relatives of one sort or another.
[18:21.500 --> 18:21.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[18:21.900 --> 18:33.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you can reach them, people who claim they're not technical, who don't understand their phone or their computer, if you can get them to realize this is important, this affects them, this is something they need to oppose as well, then you've succeeded,
[18:33.720 --> 18:38.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: because then you have that groundswell of support that goes beyond our insular community.
[18:38.680 --> 18:56.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And communicate that it's not so insular a community, and in fact, there's a real strong resistance, and they can join that and help create the kind of technology and behaviors associated with that technology by participating.
[18:57.160 --> 19:03.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, I expect about 50 submissions for talks at the HOPE conference on this subject alone.
[19:03.980 --> 19:12.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bernie, I know you're on the Speaker Committee as well, and we've seen quite a lot of submissions coming in so far, but I know there's room for more.
[19:12.160 --> 19:14.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people have been asking, when's the deadline?
[19:14.380 --> 19:16.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And really, the deadline is kind of loose.
[19:16.560 --> 19:22.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's usually sometime in April or maybe even May, but we want people to send us their ideas.
[19:22.980 --> 19:28.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: All the information is at xi.hope.net slash speakers, I believe, or just click on the Speaker button.
[19:30.060 --> 19:36.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll have all kinds of interesting conversations about this very topic and many, many others.
[19:36.160 --> 19:38.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you're looking to learn about this, this is the way to do it.
[19:38.680 --> 19:43.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: But would you say that we're on par with years past as far as speaker submissions?
[19:44.020 --> 19:44.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think so.
[19:44.960 --> 19:46.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think we've gotten some really great submissions.
[19:46.580 --> 19:50.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, we've gotten probably well over 100, I think, at this point.
[19:50.360 --> 19:56.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we're looking at them in batches, a bunch of people on the committee, and we're taking input from other people.
[19:56.340 --> 20:14.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: What I'd like to do is ask our listeners on Off The Hook here, who, if you have any ideas for topics to be discussed at the 11th Hope Conference, please email us at oth@2600.com, because we don't just sit back and wait for good talk proposals to land in our lap.
[20:14.960 --> 20:26.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: We actively reach out to people that we think or people tell us they want to hear someone talk or, hey, wouldn't it be great if there was a panel on this topic or why don't you put this person and this person together?
[20:27.180 --> 20:28.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's where we get...
[20:28.200 --> 20:29.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: We don't come up with all these ideas on our own.
[20:30.020 --> 20:30.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's the whole community.
[20:30.960 --> 20:33.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: So please email us, oth@2600.
[20:33.320 --> 20:40.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have any ideas about topics or individual speakers, you'd like to hear at the 11th Hope, and we will act on that.
[20:41.480 --> 20:41.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[20:42.520 --> 20:44.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have lots of room.
[20:44.500 --> 20:48.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have three, at least three speaker rooms that run for the entire weekend.
[20:49.680 --> 20:51.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're not...
[20:51.020 --> 20:54.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what the right word is, but we're not stodgy about this.
[20:54.560 --> 20:59.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't demand to see your credentials and your resume and things like that.
[20:59.240 --> 21:01.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: This could be the first talk you ever gave.
[21:01.540 --> 21:04.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could be, you know, 12 or you could be 80.
[21:05.460 --> 21:07.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could be from any part of the world.
[21:07.340 --> 21:14.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what makes Hope Conferences so amazing, is the diversity and variety and just the common thread that we have something to learn from each other.
[21:14.300 --> 21:15.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: So don't be intimidated.
[21:15.320 --> 21:23.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you've never done this kind of thing before, if you have a decent idea and you can put it together in a cohesive way, then you probably will have an audience at the Hope Conference.
[21:23.960 --> 21:28.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: In any event, we want to hear from you, and we'll do everything we can to make sure that you're heard as well.
[21:28.860 --> 21:29.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, indeed.
[21:29.660 --> 21:38.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you're a listener, to add to what Bernie was saying, who possibly knows somebody who you believe would have something to contribute at an event like this, let them know about it.
[21:38.960 --> 21:41.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because not everyone, unfortunately, knows about it.
[21:41.860 --> 21:48.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if you know someone who maybe has something to say to the audience at Hackers on Planet Earth, let them know.
[21:48.280 --> 21:52.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Send them to hope.net and tell them that maybe they've got something to present.
[21:53.080 --> 21:56.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And have them submit a speaker, have them submit a talk.
[21:56.160 --> 22:02.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because, I mean, we're getting such a wonderful variety of submissions in, and seeing what comes in has just been great.
[22:02.820 --> 22:06.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we do have people with alphabet soup after their name, and all kinds of certifications and degrees.
[22:07.120 --> 22:17.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we have people who are complete self-taught hobbyists, and both of whom have valid things to say on one topic or another, some of them on panels together.
[22:17.200 --> 22:29.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just great, great stuff to see such a variety of people, because the real power of something like hope is in the eclectic and wonderful batch of really passionate and brilliant individuals we get to present on such a wide variety of things.
[22:29.960 --> 22:44.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, even if your submission is not able to be included in the schedule, we do encourage you to present anyway, either through an unscheduled track or through lightning talks or through projects of various sorts that we have at the conference.
[22:44.600 --> 22:46.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: So nobody is really excluded.
[22:46.620 --> 22:52.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: We try not to judge people in a negative way, unless they really, really deserve it.
[22:53.660 --> 22:54.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: So...
[22:54.140 --> 22:57.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's always one or two who really do deserve it, but it's...
[22:57.460 --> 22:58.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: They have yet to show their faces.
[22:58.840 --> 22:59.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not the ones...
[22:59.940 --> 23:02.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're listening to this program, you're probably not one of them.
[23:02.240 --> 23:02.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[23:02.520 --> 23:09.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I should also point out that if you are accepted for a talk in one of the three main tracks, you do get a free pass to the conference.
[23:09.680 --> 23:12.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you already bought a ticket, you can resell that ticket.
[23:12.760 --> 23:13.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're transferable.
[23:13.820 --> 23:15.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're not refundable, but they're transferable.
[23:15.160 --> 23:18.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's a little bit of information that needs to be given out.
[23:18.900 --> 23:22.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, we have one other method that people can get a free ticket.
[23:22.280 --> 23:23.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if we've talked about this.
[23:23.720 --> 23:27.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: I meant to talk about it, but all the static kind of got in the way.
[23:27.760 --> 23:34.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: But we have a free ticket open for the first person who gets a legal threat from Donald Trump.
[23:34.840 --> 23:37.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, you can't give us one of your previous legal threats.
[23:37.540 --> 23:38.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people have those.
[23:38.740 --> 23:44.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying from now, March 9th, up until, I believe, July 1st is the cutoff for this.
[23:44.340 --> 23:49.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you can be threatened with legal action by Donald Trump, you will get a free admission to the Hope Conference.
[23:49.700 --> 23:54.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is only limited to one person because this could easily get out of hand and we could have a hundred of these things.
[23:54.340 --> 23:55.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, like any legal action?
[23:55.780 --> 24:02.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: It has to be a legal threat with Donald Trump's name in it basically representing him in one form or another.
[24:02.200 --> 24:04.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know he's not going to write the letter, probably.
[24:04.740 --> 24:06.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to, like...
[24:06.780 --> 24:08.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I guess it's up to you, but I would...
[24:08.320 --> 24:08.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: You want to insult him now?
[24:09.040 --> 24:09.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead and insult him now.
[24:09.360 --> 24:13.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I would just suggest you exclude, like, you know, like, assaulting him and stuff like that.
[24:13.780 --> 24:15.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you assault him, I don't think you're going to get a letter.
[24:16.040 --> 24:17.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're going to get, you know...
[24:17.380 --> 24:19.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get a legal proceeding with his name in it.
[24:19.400 --> 24:20.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I disagree, Mike.
[24:20.480 --> 24:21.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's at least, like, two tickets.
[24:21.820 --> 24:23.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Look, if you get...
[24:23.240 --> 24:26.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you're in the slammer, you can't go to Hope anyway.
[24:26.360 --> 24:27.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: So don't assault anybody.
[24:27.820 --> 24:31.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's just use our imagination here.
[24:31.340 --> 24:35.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so a non-violent, a legal proceeding that doesn't come from violence.
[24:35.060 --> 24:36.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Interesting that the first thing you think of is violence.
[24:36.380 --> 24:36.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, it's...
[24:36.820 --> 24:39.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when I think of the state, I think of violence.
[24:39.200 --> 24:39.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
[24:39.800 --> 24:45.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, you know, we should not encourage that sort of thing.
[24:45.360 --> 24:46.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thanks for that enlightened outlook.
[24:46.600 --> 24:52.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's not be violent against Donald Trump, but let's see if any of our listeners can get him angry enough to file some kind of letter.
[24:53.100 --> 24:53.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, Rob.
[24:53.580 --> 24:56.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: So now, what form must this take?
[24:56.060 --> 25:01.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Must it be a letter on Letterhead, or can it be, like, an angry tweet on that Twitter account where he uses, like, his open palms and most of a keyboard to vent?
[25:01.780 --> 25:05.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, is a tweet a legal notice of any sort, a cease and desist?
[25:05.400 --> 25:06.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it is.
[25:06.240 --> 25:08.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe next year it will be, but right now it's not.
[25:08.720 --> 25:14.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, it has to be, like, you know, any of the thousands of letters that we've gotten over the years, telling us to stop doing things.
[25:14.260 --> 25:22.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you're saying it can be a letter from one of his lawyers or representing his campaign or him or an actual lawsuit, both of those...
[25:22.660 --> 25:23.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure, yeah.
[25:23.500 --> 25:27.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you get a bona fide lawsuit, yeah, you'll definitely get the ticket, well, assuming you're the first one.
[25:28.060 --> 25:33.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: But those of you who just get a nasty letter on behalf of him, it has to be on behalf of him.
[25:33.660 --> 25:35.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: It can't just be somebody who's associated with him.
[25:35.740 --> 25:44.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, use your imagination as far as how to get this kind of thing, because there's a lot of competition, a lot of people, you know, lawyers can only work so many hours a day and churn out so many letters.
[25:45.700 --> 25:51.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I think if you're creative, and I know our audience is, you'll get a decent response.
[25:52.100 --> 25:52.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[25:52.340 --> 25:56.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know, I would say somebody could hack his teleprompter, but I don't think he uses a teleprompter.
[25:56.220 --> 25:59.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: He just goes off on the mouth or runs off forever.
[25:59.340 --> 26:01.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, wait, but are you encouraging someone to hack his teleprompter?
[26:01.900 --> 26:02.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I'm not.
[26:02.540 --> 26:06.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm just saying if someone were to hack his teleprompter, that would be...
[26:06.100 --> 26:07.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that would be awesome.
[26:07.040 --> 26:08.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, I don't think he uses one.
[26:08.940 --> 26:10.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: He just runs off on the mouth endlessly.
[26:10.820 --> 26:13.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because Hope employees are not excluded from this.
[26:14.060 --> 26:15.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: You are eligible.
[26:15.320 --> 26:21.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could win the ticket yourself, Bernie, if you want to insult him some more or, you know, encourage anything.
[26:22.500 --> 26:22.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: No?
[26:23.120 --> 26:23.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[26:23.560 --> 26:23.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you...
[26:23.920 --> 26:24.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not...
[26:24.720 --> 26:29.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, again, I'm not encouraging anyone to engage in illegal activity.
[26:29.780 --> 26:32.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, there's a lot of things they could do.
[26:32.560 --> 26:34.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, you could say something about his hands or something.
[26:34.640 --> 26:35.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know.
[26:35.300 --> 26:36.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: This whole thing is...
[26:36.580 --> 26:37.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[26:39.280 --> 26:41.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like I said, there are a lot of good ideas out there.
[26:41.240 --> 26:43.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure our listeners and readers will come up with something.
[26:43.920 --> 26:44.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, Rob.
[26:44.600 --> 26:44.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[26:45.180 --> 26:49.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, going back to what we were talking about when the static took over...
[26:49.060 --> 26:49.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, why don't we do that?
[26:49.480 --> 26:50.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: ...the business with the hotel.
[26:50.540 --> 26:51.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's right.
[26:51.200 --> 26:51.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: You never got that out, did you?
[26:51.940 --> 26:53.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I did never get that out.
[26:53.340 --> 27:03.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, yeah, we were having some reports of people having difficulty getting the conference room rate or getting rooms for the duration of Hope at all.
[27:03.820 --> 27:06.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so, you're saying you've confirmed this is fixed?
[27:06.400 --> 27:06.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: I believe so.
[27:07.200 --> 27:10.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know the problem was that people couldn't book rooms on Sunday night for some reason.
[27:10.980 --> 27:13.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's usually the lightest night.
[27:14.080 --> 27:16.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, apparently, there was some kind of glitch and it's been fixed.
[27:16.680 --> 27:25.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you should be able to follow the link on the xi.hope.net webpage to the hotel and you can book rooms at a discount for the whole weekend.
[27:26.040 --> 27:29.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, if they're just calling the hotel, what should they ask for as far as the discount?
[27:30.300 --> 27:31.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all on the webpage.
[27:31.700 --> 27:34.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have it in front of me, but the Hope Conference, I would imagine.
[27:35.040 --> 27:36.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, they might have some special phrasing.
[27:36.820 --> 27:39.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, online is probably a lot easier and a lot faster.
[27:39.640 --> 27:44.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, check out xi.hope.net and all the hotel info should be there and it should be working.
[27:44.640 --> 27:44.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[27:45.060 --> 27:46.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if it isn't, let us know.
[27:46.540 --> 27:46.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[27:47.280 --> 27:51.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, again, you can write to us, oth@2600.com with any questions.
[27:51.240 --> 27:57.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have some mysteries you need cleared up or things you'd like us to explain, we'll try to do so.
[27:57.200 --> 27:58.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can't answer everybody, but we'll try.
[27:59.360 --> 28:05.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, more about Apple because it really hasn't been that great a time for Apple with all these battles and things like that.
[28:05.800 --> 28:16.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, apparently, Apple customers have been targeted by hackers in the first campaign against Macintosh computers using a type of software known as ransomware.
[28:17.100 --> 28:19.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, ransomware is one of the fastest growing types of cyber threats.
[28:19.640 --> 28:28.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: It encrypts data on infected machines, then typically asks users to pay ransoms in hard-to-trace digital currencies to get an electronic key so they can retrieve their data.
[28:28.120 --> 28:33.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we hear these stories all the time about police departments that pay a certain amount of Bitcoin so that they can get their data back.
[28:35.080 --> 28:36.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a real thing.
[28:36.100 --> 28:38.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: The only thing I obviously take exception to is that hackers are responsible for this.
[28:39.240 --> 28:39.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are people.
[28:39.860 --> 28:40.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are thieves.
[28:40.520 --> 28:45.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are people that know how to send a file and infect a machine.
[28:45.080 --> 28:46.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not the hardest thing in the world to do.
[28:47.280 --> 28:49.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, yeah, this is real.
[28:49.640 --> 28:49.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mike?
[28:50.800 --> 28:51.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Cyber thieves?
[28:52.180 --> 28:53.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the word you want to use?
[28:53.280 --> 28:54.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what word you want to use.
[28:54.560 --> 28:55.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: What word do you want to use?
[28:55.740 --> 28:57.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know why you have to attach cyber to it.
[28:57.580 --> 28:58.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're just plain old thieves.
[28:58.900 --> 28:59.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: They attach cyber to it.
[28:59.640 --> 29:01.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's what I'm pointing out is that I think it's wrong.
[29:01.780 --> 29:03.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it has anything to do with hacking.
[29:04.340 --> 29:07.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe figuring out how to get around this has something to do with hacking.
[29:08.360 --> 29:10.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would be, I think, an accomplishment.
[29:11.260 --> 29:14.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, ransomware, it's a thing.
[29:14.600 --> 29:19.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can get it in all different ways, I think mostly from opening attachments that you really shouldn't be opening.
[29:19.440 --> 29:26.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, if I remember correctly, this piece came from some software that people were downloading that somehow got this ransomware attached to it.
[29:26.960 --> 29:29.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: So when you download software, know your source.
[29:30.480 --> 29:39.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, you know, this actually, I think, has a little bit of a connection to the types of email, the way people look at email and stuff, too.
[29:39.360 --> 29:48.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's from, like, HTML mail and things with attachments and seemingly harmless file extensions.
[29:48.940 --> 29:54.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you use web-based email, yes, you're much more prone to fall for this and click something you're not supposed to click.
[29:54.900 --> 30:02.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you... like some of us, we use shell-based and, you know, you have to think about everything you open or download before you actually do it.
[30:02.600 --> 30:04.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, that can't be your solution.
[30:04.240 --> 30:07.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: I know your solution to a lot of problems is, like, use technology from the 90s.
[30:08.840 --> 30:10.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I use technology that works better.
[30:11.060 --> 30:12.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I prefer.
[30:12.660 --> 30:20.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, web email and HTML email in general, like, works better, like, by any definition except the specific one you're using now.
[30:20.900 --> 30:21.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, how does it work better exactly?
[30:21.560 --> 30:25.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: We need to give people ways you can put bold text in your email.
[30:25.980 --> 30:27.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what an amazing new feature.
[30:27.880 --> 30:29.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the most annoying thing in the world, bold text.
[30:29.780 --> 30:31.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: You bold text me, I'm not going to read it.
[30:31.340 --> 30:31.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the most annoying thing in the world.
[30:31.740 --> 30:32.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, bold...
[30:32.600 --> 30:34.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why do you need bold text in your email?
[30:34.400 --> 30:35.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Email is just...
[30:35.500 --> 30:38.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you're citing a book and you want italics.
[30:38.740 --> 30:38.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[30:39.040 --> 30:40.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, how many books do you read that have bold text in them?
[30:41.800 --> 30:43.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, third grade, maybe, but...
[30:43.900 --> 30:49.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll go to italics if I'm talking about a book I read and I want proper typography.
[30:50.040 --> 30:55.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: If this is why you use web-based email, because you can go bold in italics, it's not a very strong reason.
[30:55.480 --> 30:56.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we...
[30:56.060 --> 30:57.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: I like putting...
[30:57.080 --> 30:59.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I have a chart and I want to put the chart in my email.
[30:59.800 --> 31:00.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[31:00.220 --> 31:01.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I can see charts.
[31:01.240 --> 31:01.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a problem.
[31:01.700 --> 31:06.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: I've emailed you images and you complain it takes you like 10 minutes to download them and get them onto your computer.
[31:06.880 --> 31:08.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard this complaint from you.
[31:08.520 --> 31:09.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't know why you're emailing me images.
[31:10.160 --> 31:13.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't anymore because I know how much trouble it causes you.
[31:13.160 --> 31:19.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: But when I have other people who have modern email clients, I just stick the image in the email and then they look at it and we all move on with our lives.
[31:19.120 --> 31:21.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a radical theory about email.
[31:21.340 --> 31:22.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't believe I should be.
[31:22.760 --> 31:23.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's captive.
[31:23.860 --> 31:24.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right?
[31:24.480 --> 31:27.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I read it when I'm in front of my computer and I choose to.
[31:27.700 --> 31:28.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't go to my phone.
[31:28.680 --> 31:31.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not answerable 24 hours a day.
[31:31.900 --> 31:33.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: I choose when I want to read it.
[31:33.540 --> 31:34.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: I choose how I want to read it.
[31:34.560 --> 31:36.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think everybody should have that choice.
[31:36.360 --> 31:38.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think text-based email works just great.
[31:38.400 --> 31:38.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you know what?
[31:39.000 --> 31:40.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've never gotten the virus.
[31:40.280 --> 31:42.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've never gotten ransomware because I look at these things first.
[31:42.960 --> 31:43.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Neither have I.
[31:43.800 --> 31:44.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[31:44.280 --> 31:44.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's great.
[31:44.960 --> 31:54.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what I'm trying to say is that people who use email like Gmail, Hotmail, whatever, they are more likely to click on something.
[31:54.500 --> 31:55.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how this isn't obvious.
[31:55.680 --> 31:58.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: If it's right there in front of you, you might click on it.
[31:58.400 --> 32:01.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, the few times I have used Gmail, I found it extremely annoying.
[32:01.480 --> 32:05.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see advertisements blasting their way out into my face yet another way.
[32:05.380 --> 32:07.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've never seen that in text-based email.
[32:07.780 --> 32:09.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there are advantages in this.
[32:09.260 --> 32:10.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying there aren't advantages.
[32:10.800 --> 32:12.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's with AdBlocker.
[32:12.420 --> 32:14.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are always ways to get around these things.
[32:14.220 --> 32:14.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Always ways.
[32:15.220 --> 32:15.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[32:15.460 --> 32:19.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's a very fascinating argument you're having about email, but it doesn't matter.
[32:19.880 --> 32:21.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Email is not the only venue for ransomware.
[32:22.260 --> 32:27.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I could tell you a story about a place I was affiliated with for a bit who got hit with ransomware.
[32:27.540 --> 32:28.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do tell them.
[32:28.240 --> 32:29.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I won't name them.
[32:29.500 --> 32:34.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they got infected with ransomware because somebody who worked there clicked a link in an instant message.
[32:35.980 --> 32:38.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, it's just a virus like any other.
[32:39.200 --> 32:47.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And like our friends at the Personal Computer Show, which comes on after us, can tell you, there are any number of venues that a virus could use to attack you.
[32:47.720 --> 32:48.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And once you get hit with it, you're hit with it.
[32:49.420 --> 33:00.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: The one defense against ransomware, because what it does is if you get hit with it, it encrypts your files with a key you don't have and then demands you send, say, Bitcoin to a certain address to get that key to unlock your stuff.
[33:00.420 --> 33:08.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: But a lot of this, a lot of the grief that causes would be headed off at the pass if you backed up your files regularly.
[33:08.420 --> 33:10.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you practiced safe data practices.
[33:11.020 --> 33:16.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, don't open up everything you're doing to the entire Internet, maybe if you're setting up a network for a business.
[33:17.000 --> 33:22.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Things like that where if you, you know, don't click links in IMs that you don't know where they come from.
[33:22.480 --> 33:24.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't open emails that you don't know where they come from.
[33:24.300 --> 33:29.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: This all goes hand in hand with you having the power to choose what you want to do and how you want to do it.
[33:29.160 --> 33:30.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to do it like everybody else does.
[33:30.660 --> 33:34.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then you are basically responsible for your own security.
[33:34.180 --> 33:34.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[33:34.420 --> 33:37.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: We can rant about email and I am for as long as we want.
[33:37.600 --> 33:45.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: But the specific case here came from people downloading a software program from the website of the developers of that software program, which had gotten infected.
[33:45.920 --> 33:48.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's very hard for normal people to understand how to defend against.
[33:49.060 --> 33:52.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you can say don't ever download software, but that's not helpful advice.
[33:52.400 --> 33:57.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, look, I would never do business with whoever it was that was so sloppy to let it go out in the software.
[33:57.700 --> 33:59.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were trying to distribute to people.
[33:59.900 --> 34:01.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're obviously not taking their own policies.
[34:01.640 --> 34:08.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: What is your criteria for determining if the software you want to download is distributed by such sloppy people in your view?
[34:08.740 --> 34:08.740]  Well, okay.
[34:08.960 --> 34:10.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's first of all name them.
[34:10.320 --> 34:10.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Who are they?
[34:10.940 --> 34:11.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Transmission.
[34:11.580 --> 34:11.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Transmission.
[34:12.100 --> 34:12.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: What do these people do?
[34:13.140 --> 34:15.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a free BitTorrent client.
[34:15.200 --> 34:16.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: A free BitTorrent client.
[34:16.400 --> 34:16.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[34:16.660 --> 34:16.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty good.
[34:17.020 --> 34:17.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: I use it, by the way.
[34:17.820 --> 34:19.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you should stop using it if they're this sloppy.
[34:20.080 --> 34:21.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't download it from their website.
[34:21.640 --> 34:26.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: I get it from the Linux distribution I use in all this random stuff that's not relevant here.
[34:26.660 --> 34:28.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's good software.
[34:28.180 --> 34:30.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: You get their software from somebody else.
[34:30.240 --> 34:31.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't get it from them.
[34:31.280 --> 34:31.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[34:32.060 --> 34:34.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's safer if you get it from somebody else and not them.
[34:34.160 --> 34:37.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a detailed, not relevant to any users of normal.
[34:37.320 --> 34:41.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are not good people to ally yourself with if you don't trust them enough to take something from them.
[34:41.720 --> 34:42.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a matter of trust.
[34:42.880 --> 34:44.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a matter of the computer I use.
[34:45.040 --> 34:47.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not relevant to normal people who have normal computers.
[34:47.180 --> 34:50.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it is a matter of trust because if you download from them, you might get ransomware.
[34:50.860 --> 34:52.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's... I would not trust that.
[34:54.000 --> 34:57.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was very recently a case with a popular Linux distribution.
[34:57.380 --> 34:58.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can't remember which one.
[34:58.360 --> 34:58.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was it Linux Mint?
[34:59.080 --> 34:59.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was Linux Mint.
[35:00.060 --> 35:10.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Linux Mint, that the official repository, the official site that people would get this popular Linux distribution from, ended up getting... distributing a copy that was infected.
[35:10.600 --> 35:28.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, it's a hassle, and it happens, and it's part of the reality of this technological environment we find ourselves in, which means it's better if you also know to protect yourself beforehand with things like regular backups and safer use of where you store your vital files.
[35:28.920 --> 35:32.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And detection programs, too, but they can be a royal pain in the ass as well.
[35:32.780 --> 35:42.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I've run many virus detectors and adware and malware detectors, and they turn out to be more of a hassle than a virus probably would have been.
[35:42.480 --> 35:45.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we've heard from you all the things you think we shouldn't do.
[35:45.560 --> 35:47.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: We shouldn't use email on the web.
[35:47.560 --> 35:49.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: We shouldn't download an email client.
[35:49.500 --> 35:50.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Never said that.
[35:50.100 --> 35:50.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: We shouldn't download...
[35:50.480 --> 35:52.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I said you should have the choice.
[35:52.720 --> 35:52.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[35:53.000 --> 35:54.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what is the choice that you recommend?
[35:55.380 --> 35:57.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: To do it the way that you're comfortable with.
[35:57.180 --> 36:01.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't tell somebody else how they should read email or how they should run their computers.
[36:01.360 --> 36:03.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: If it works for you, you do it that way.
[36:03.980 --> 36:06.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't just follow rules that make no sense to you.
[36:07.220 --> 36:08.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a simple thing.
[36:08.420 --> 36:11.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: But how do people get the knowledge to know what...
[36:11.540 --> 36:11.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: They practice.
[36:12.160 --> 36:12.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: They play with things.
[36:12.860 --> 36:13.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: They break things.
[36:13.580 --> 36:15.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: They dive into it.
[36:15.140 --> 36:15.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the only way.
[36:16.000 --> 36:20.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just reading a textbook and doing what everybody else does, that's about as anti-hacker as you can get.
[36:20.500 --> 36:20.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[36:20.840 --> 36:42.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hearing in here also a kind of support, I think, for OS diversity and having a sort of really thriving ecosystem of different systems and platforms and maybe just not being like everybody else or running with a large user base.
[36:42.320 --> 36:46.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we saw this kind of with the OS wars in the 90s and so on.
[36:46.320 --> 36:53.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And here we are now with a couple different OSs on this mobile platform.
[36:54.040 --> 36:57.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that is definitely, I think, also an issue here.
[36:57.860 --> 37:06.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't hear that you have to embrace being an ultra, a super Luddite of some sort.
[37:06.360 --> 37:11.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: But you see, that's how you're seen if you buck the trends, if you question.
[37:11.500 --> 37:13.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're seen as somebody who rejects everything.
[37:13.980 --> 37:16.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And just yelling at the kids on their lawn and stuff like that.
[37:17.020 --> 37:17.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's nonsense.
[37:18.700 --> 37:19.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I finish?
[37:20.360 --> 37:20.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Please.
[37:21.080 --> 37:21.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Please.
[37:21.660 --> 37:22.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking.
[37:22.320 --> 37:22.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[37:22.540 --> 37:23.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just kidding.
[37:23.280 --> 37:24.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't a debate.
[37:24.420 --> 37:25.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, go ahead.
[37:25.040 --> 37:26.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not you, Bernie.
[37:28.000 --> 37:28.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.
[37:29.160 --> 37:32.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in any event, I think that it's...
[37:33.440 --> 37:36.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: What I was really trying to get at when we kind of...
[37:36.300 --> 37:42.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: At the outset of this conversation was that the making of things...
[37:43.100 --> 37:45.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Making things incredibly easy.
[37:45.700 --> 38:02.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the friend I was referring to, I think he was using Microsoft Outlook, which is an email program that runs on your operating system and connects to a web-based client through certain protocols and so on.
[38:02.480 --> 38:06.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the method that he opened an attachment.
[38:06.680 --> 38:25.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I understand what Rob was saying, too, that you can get this through thumb drives, through a link and an IM, even like in a chat program on your phone, you know, if that's what the virus or a malicious software was aimed at as a target.
[38:27.080 --> 38:29.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, in any event, I think that it's...
[38:29.900 --> 38:48.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think just important to be judicious about your haste when receiving things and make sure you're aware of where something's coming from and how quickly it might install or how quickly something could go wrong.
[38:48.880 --> 38:50.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, the backing up is also very helpful.
[38:50.840 --> 39:07.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you suspect your computer is encrypting itself and has a bunch of weird stuff going on, maybe it's a time for you to turn it off and get into maybe booting something else and looking at what's going on in the drive or restoring it.
[39:07.260 --> 39:11.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this gets into sort of personal computer stuff, but there are ways of dealing with this.
[39:11.700 --> 39:20.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Best, if you suspect something's going on, to turn it off and maybe look at what maybe you did and maybe roll things back if you have that capability.
[39:20.580 --> 39:24.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ask yourself, what would happen if your data today was lost?
[39:24.640 --> 39:30.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: If your computer blew up or, you know, something erased everything on your hard drive?
[39:30.340 --> 39:31.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have a way to recover from that?
[39:31.980 --> 39:33.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because it will happen at some point.
[39:33.360 --> 39:34.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Something will happen.
[39:34.820 --> 39:37.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of us are not prepared for that.
[39:37.240 --> 39:38.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of us don't keep regular backups.
[39:38.980 --> 39:40.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of us don't even know how to do that.
[39:40.000 --> 39:41.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: And are they actually your backups?
[39:42.220 --> 39:46.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you just, like, having someone else do them, like, as a service?
[39:46.820 --> 39:48.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, again, it's the trust issue.
[39:48.120 --> 39:50.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have to trust somebody else that they're not going to mess with.
[39:50.920 --> 39:51.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: And many times they do.
[39:51.980 --> 39:52.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[39:52.260 --> 39:55.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: You got to scrutinize your own process and do what's comfortable for you.
[39:55.740 --> 39:58.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the best kind of data hygiene advice.
[39:58.240 --> 39:58.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[39:58.760 --> 39:59.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see nothing wrong with that.
[39:59.900 --> 40:02.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: If people want to use Gmail, let's, you know, go ahead and have fun with that.
[40:02.740 --> 40:05.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: If people want to use smartphones for every bit of their lives, that's on them.
[40:05.780 --> 40:10.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: But you shouldn't be pressured to do these things just because everybody else is doing it.
[40:10.500 --> 40:11.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's a lot.
[40:11.480 --> 40:15.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot you can learn from the way technology was built from the ground up.
[40:15.260 --> 40:20.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's a lot you can learn by building a telephone that you can't do now, obviously, because nobody can build these things.
[40:21.200 --> 40:26.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot you can learn by seeing how the Internet developed and how UNIX works.
[40:26.160 --> 40:29.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because, you know, I know, Kyle, a few years ago you didn't really know UNIX at all.
[40:29.800 --> 40:33.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now you're pretty much always in something.
[40:33.400 --> 40:33.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[40:33.720 --> 40:34.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can see the parallels.
[40:34.800 --> 40:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can see how certain commands work in all different programs in the same basic way.
[40:40.480 --> 40:41.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just...
[40:41.440 --> 40:43.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: It kind of makes sense after a while.
[40:43.140 --> 40:47.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you feel more like you're a part of the machine when you're involved on that level.
[40:48.180 --> 40:48.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[40:48.880 --> 40:49.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no.
[40:49.500 --> 40:50.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's difficult.
[40:50.860 --> 41:03.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, learning, like we were talking about, how different programs can be packaged and you might not necessarily be the one auditing whatever BitTorrent or other programs come with an operating system.
[41:03.580 --> 41:04.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's all...
[41:04.480 --> 41:09.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: You get sort of to that granular level when you mess around with that stuff.
[41:09.680 --> 41:15.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I never, ever in a million years thought I would understand if I really think about it as much as I do now.
[41:15.720 --> 41:28.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think also having some humility and going easy on yourself, there's a lot of mileage in that because it's incredibly disarming to people who might be knowledgeable if you tell them I don't know that.
[41:28.820 --> 41:32.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they may share some cool things with you.
[41:33.340 --> 41:39.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: But also there's that spirit of lifelong learning where you're not really ever going to...
[41:39.360 --> 41:44.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, every element of everything you're not going to get right away.
[41:44.140 --> 41:47.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to, as I said, kind of give yourself a break.
[41:47.060 --> 42:00.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's certainly true when you take these things on, after a while you can really be quite proficient in something that maybe does have a little bit of a historical precedent.
[42:00.280 --> 42:07.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a historical item, but also still utilitarian and used in some way or another today.
[42:07.240 --> 42:09.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can learn so much by messing around with things like that.
[42:09.860 --> 42:18.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And also, like you said, the conversations that you have with people, you know, I encourage people not to boast about things that either they know about or they don't know about.
[42:18.900 --> 42:20.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I think it's worse if you do know about it.
[42:20.440 --> 42:24.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, profess how much you don't know about something.
[42:24.220 --> 42:32.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Talk about, you know, these are the gaps in my knowledge I'd like to fill or this is how I might be able to help somebody else who you might assume knows everything and simply doesn't.
[42:33.620 --> 42:36.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to hear our listeners' views on this and other topics.
[42:36.340 --> 42:40.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Our phone number is 718-780-8888.
[42:41.060 --> 42:49.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're here until 8 o'clock or so talking about technology and the Internet and hackers and all sorts of other things like that.
[42:50.400 --> 42:55.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've got more stories to read, but I know if I start a story, the phone's going to ring and then I'll have to stop in the middle.
[42:55.240 --> 42:56.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a very short story?
[42:56.600 --> 42:57.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't.
[42:57.120 --> 42:58.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have a short story.
[42:58.300 --> 43:01.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a poem, but no, it's stupid.
[43:01.160 --> 43:01.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to read that.
[43:01.780 --> 43:03.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nasty stuff, though, that ransomware.
[43:03.560 --> 43:03.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[43:06.380 --> 43:08.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, as I said, he was really bummed.
[43:08.920 --> 43:14.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: I totally messed him up for a long time with trying to figure it out and negotiate what to do.
[43:14.360 --> 43:22.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was trying to help him, giving him names of security groups that were working on it and so on as far as cracking it.
[43:22.880 --> 43:23.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[43:23.360 --> 43:27.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we have some phone calls, so let's see what other people have to say about these subject matters.
[43:28.040 --> 43:28.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[43:28.300 --> 43:29.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Off The Hook.
[43:30.740 --> 43:31.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Speak up.
[43:32.100 --> 43:32.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wait a minute.
[43:32.860 --> 43:33.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hold on.
[43:33.260 --> 43:33.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: It might be my fault.
[43:34.080 --> 43:34.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[43:35.160 --> 43:35.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[43:36.100 --> 43:36.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[43:36.320 --> 43:37.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm calling you from New Jersey.
[43:37.800 --> 43:38.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[43:38.340 --> 43:46.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: And my brother had a ransom thing, and his whole external hard drive was also included.
[43:46.820 --> 43:48.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: You haven't mentioned that yet.
[43:49.140 --> 44:00.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: So if you're going to back up, you should take your external hard drive off before you ride away, because they'll get that, too.
[44:00.820 --> 44:06.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: They got his external hard drive that he had put all his stuff backed up on, as well as his whole computer.
[44:06.840 --> 44:07.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[44:07.180 --> 44:07.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's not...
[44:07.980 --> 44:14.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you're going to back up your system, this is something we should point out, it's not a good idea to back it up to a drive that's connected to the system you're backing up.
[44:14.720 --> 44:24.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people might not realize that, but what you should do is back something up to an external drive and then put that external drive in a different building, somewhere away from where you are now.
[44:24.240 --> 44:27.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because, you know, God forbid your house burns down, you're going to lose everything anyway.
[44:27.520 --> 44:29.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, it should be someplace else.
[44:29.460 --> 44:32.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: You should learn how to encrypt it so that if it gets stolen, you don't lose all of your data.
[44:33.560 --> 44:38.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are not difficult concepts, and this is something I think we should have workshops at the conference to help people with.
[44:38.860 --> 44:46.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I do suggest that you might mention that, because you talked about the importance of this whole ransom business, and I didn't hear you mention that.
[44:46.840 --> 44:47.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[44:47.080 --> 44:48.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we're mentioning it now, and thanks for bringing it up.
[44:48.840 --> 44:51.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: How did your brother, how did you deal with the situation?
[44:53.560 --> 44:55.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Fortunately, he had not.
[44:57.880 --> 45:00.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: He had lost only six months of stuff.
[45:01.460 --> 45:11.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: He had transferred it from an older computer to a newer computer, and he hadn't removed it off his older computer, so he decided not to pay the ransom and just lose the stuff for six months.
[45:12.200 --> 45:18.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, boy, did I learn a lesson, not to leave your external backup attached to your computer.
[45:18.080 --> 45:18.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure.
[45:18.420 --> 45:21.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can see that, just the same as your regular hard drive.
[45:21.200 --> 45:23.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: How much were the extortionists trying?
[45:23.420 --> 45:24.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: How much money were they demanding?
[45:24.580 --> 45:27.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: He didn't tell me that, but it certainly must have been a lot.
[45:27.600 --> 45:27.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[45:28.120 --> 45:30.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, once you start that, they were going to give him the key.
[45:30.880 --> 45:33.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: They took everything except his email.
[45:34.680 --> 45:36.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: The only thing they left for him was his email.
[45:37.060 --> 45:39.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Was that their choice, or because they couldn't access it?
[45:40.840 --> 45:42.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, they had to communicate with him, didn't they?
[45:43.120 --> 45:44.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess, yeah, that would make sense.
[45:45.320 --> 45:45.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good point.
[45:46.280 --> 45:46.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[45:46.520 --> 45:50.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, you have no guarantee, if you do pay the ransom, that they're going to deliver.
[45:50.900 --> 45:51.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[45:51.480 --> 45:53.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you should never do that.
[45:53.180 --> 45:54.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's a horrible situation to be in.
[45:55.200 --> 45:55.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Totally.
[45:55.760 --> 45:58.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's negotiating with ransomware people.
[45:58.340 --> 45:58.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: We should not do that.
[45:59.120 --> 46:00.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for that call.
[46:00.360 --> 46:00.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Rob.
[46:00.920 --> 46:01.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[46:01.280 --> 46:05.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's a very important point, is to not use a drive that's always connected.
[46:05.680 --> 46:08.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there's such a tendency for people that want something that just works in the background.
[46:08.540 --> 46:09.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't have to maybe do anything.
[46:10.000 --> 46:11.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: They just leave it going, and it goes.
[46:12.280 --> 46:14.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, yeah, here's where that can really bite you in the butt.
[46:14.980 --> 46:16.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: But here's another radical concept.
[46:16.880 --> 46:18.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, not every computer has to be connected to the Internet.
[46:19.060 --> 46:28.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you're doing a particular job that does not require constant communication, you can control how often or if it's connected to the net.
[46:29.240 --> 46:30.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And nobody will think any less of you.
[46:30.880 --> 46:31.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, almost nobody.
[46:32.220 --> 46:32.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's take another phone call.
[46:33.000 --> 46:33.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[46:33.660 --> 46:34.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the hook.
[46:34.680 --> 46:34.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[46:36.740 --> 46:37.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Speak up, please.
[46:38.040 --> 46:38.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[46:38.560 --> 46:38.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[46:38.720 --> 46:39.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[46:40.260 --> 46:40.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[46:41.960 --> 46:48.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I live in Florida, and I'm listening to your show once in a while on the Internet, and I really like it.
[46:48.500 --> 46:49.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, thanks.
[46:49.080 --> 46:49.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you very much.
[46:49.540 --> 46:55.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you said something about somebody who wants to get sued by Donald Trump.
[46:56.140 --> 47:01.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't know if want is the right word, but just it's a relatively easy task.
[47:01.480 --> 47:02.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: It shouldn't be that difficult.
[47:02.400 --> 47:05.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I'm sure someone already has done enough before the end of the hour.
[47:06.440 --> 47:09.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's just, you know, a friendly competition, I think, amongst...
[47:09.480 --> 47:17.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I've written a poem about Donald Trump for the election, and I was wondering if you would be interested in hearing that.
[47:18.120 --> 47:21.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay, you know that's not going to be enough to get you sued, right?
[47:22.260 --> 47:23.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Probably not.
[47:23.080 --> 47:23.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[47:23.640 --> 47:25.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it clean, and is it short?
[47:25.980 --> 47:29.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: It is clean, and it is only a minute or two.
[47:29.440 --> 47:30.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go for the one-minute version.
[47:31.140 --> 47:31.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[47:36.040 --> 47:39.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Trumpety-dumpty will build a great wall.
[47:39.620 --> 47:42.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like all things of Donald, it will not be small.
[47:43.340 --> 47:49.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as New Mexico, Texas, too, where the border is in need.
[47:50.520 --> 47:55.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Better, bigger, too, than China's is what the Kubla Don decreed.
[47:56.180 --> 48:00.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Greater than the one torn down by President Reagan, Ronald.
[48:02.080 --> 48:06.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: To protect our southern border with a beautiful gate, decreed the Donald.
[48:07.480 --> 48:12.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: They'll come by doors on horseback on foot and its ladders.
[48:12.680 --> 48:16.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Mexico will pay for it, which is what really matters.
[48:16.880 --> 48:19.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: To keep out the wetbacks and Muslims, too.
[48:20.420 --> 48:23.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: But something there is that doesn't love it, too.
[48:26.120 --> 48:27.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, that was interesting.
[48:28.900 --> 48:30.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was pretty...
[48:31.620 --> 48:33.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what the worst he is.
[48:33.160 --> 48:34.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody else have...
[48:35.000 --> 48:39.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, but I bet Mr. Trump's small hands are working on a legal threat right now.
[48:39.600 --> 48:40.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it's enough.
[48:40.740 --> 48:41.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it's enough.
[48:41.400 --> 48:42.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: But keep working on it.
[48:42.100 --> 48:42.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Keep that spirit.
[48:42.740 --> 48:43.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thank you very much.
[48:43.900 --> 48:44.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for your call.
[48:44.940 --> 48:45.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening.
[48:45.680 --> 48:46.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the hook.
[48:46.380 --> 48:46.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[48:48.500 --> 48:48.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Lou.
[48:49.160 --> 48:50.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, what's on your mind?
[48:50.920 --> 48:51.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Cool question.
[48:51.560 --> 48:52.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listen, do you recommend...
[48:52.880 --> 48:57.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wanted to bring my kids to the HOPE conference, but I don't know if they're going to get bored.
[48:57.220 --> 49:00.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there an age limit that you recommend, like 12, 13, or...
[49:00.480 --> 49:03.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, some of our presenters are 12 and 13.
[49:03.320 --> 49:05.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, it really depends on the kid.
[49:06.500 --> 49:06.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: If...
[49:07.620 --> 49:12.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think many kids are interested in what goes on at the conference, including the talks, and definitely what happens downstairs.
[49:13.360 --> 49:16.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: So a kid as old as 12 or 13, yeah, I think he'd be right in...
[49:16.920 --> 49:18.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: He or she would be right in the middle of it all.
[49:18.600 --> 49:19.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: So...
[49:19.240 --> 49:27.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, Emmanuel, don't we have a policy on bringing kids as far as if you bring a kid under a certain age, they don't have to buy a ticket?
[49:28.560 --> 49:36.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: If they're toddlers, if they're infants, if they haven't been born yet, things like that, if they take up a seat, that's... this is really the acid test.
[49:36.780 --> 49:39.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: They take up a seat, then, you know, they have to have a ticket, obviously.
[49:39.560 --> 49:41.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, people who have tickets will get very angry.
[49:42.100 --> 49:45.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought we had a height test or an age test, but...
[49:45.940 --> 49:46.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's really...
[49:46.820 --> 49:47.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is.
[49:47.240 --> 49:48.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's really difficult to do with hackers.
[49:48.740 --> 49:49.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really.
[49:49.320 --> 49:49.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure it is.
[49:51.020 --> 49:52.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Does that answer your question, sir?
[49:52.700 --> 49:53.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, pretty much.
[49:53.540 --> 49:56.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just want to make sure they get bored and start bugging me halfway through it.
[49:56.360 --> 49:57.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think they're going to get bored.
[49:57.760 --> 49:58.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pretty sure they won't.
[49:58.960 --> 49:59.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: How old are your kids?
[50:00.700 --> 50:01.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: 12 and 13.
[50:02.040 --> 50:03.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, they're not going to get bored.
[50:05.160 --> 50:05.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Beautiful.
[50:05.960 --> 50:06.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: You guys have a great show.
[50:07.020 --> 50:07.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks a lot.
[50:07.520 --> 50:07.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Look forward to seeing you in July.
[50:07.840 --> 50:08.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Take care.
[50:08.760 --> 50:09.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, yes, Rob, go ahead.
[50:09.660 --> 50:15.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just to point out again to anyone who may not be familiar, it's not just a series of talks and presentations and stuff.
[50:15.900 --> 50:16.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are activities.
[50:16.720 --> 50:17.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are things to do.
[50:17.500 --> 50:21.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are things to get your hands dirty and actively learn.
[50:22.060 --> 50:23.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: What kinds of things, pray tell?
[50:23.660 --> 50:31.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are, like in the past, we've had our friend Mitch run soldering workshops and build various projects that he's got.
[50:31.620 --> 50:39.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've had lockpicking workshops wherein I was seriously schooled by a girl of maybe seven or eight years old who was sitting next to me and doing everything better than I could.
[50:41.340 --> 50:49.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've had such wonderful things going on, and I would love to see more people bring their kids to the HOPE conference because I would have loved to be brought to something like that when I was a kid.
[50:49.720 --> 50:53.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was no such thing yet, but for today's generation, there's hope.
[50:53.820 --> 50:57.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, again, we also have openings for workshops of all sorts.
[50:57.620 --> 51:06.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a special section on the xri.hope.net webpage where you can see the guidelines for that and how you can submit your ideas.
[51:06.560 --> 51:14.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have all kinds of plans and potential things that are not yet ready to be announced, but will be extremely cool.
[51:14.160 --> 51:15.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have a lot of space to work with.
[51:15.420 --> 51:30.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was just going to say there's a huge exhibition space that we take over for the weekend, and if you have a project or if you're an artist and you would like to show some kind of installation off at our event, we would love to have you.
[51:30.320 --> 51:38.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's another way people can participate, anything around the themes that hackers might be talking about this summer.
[51:38.700 --> 51:42.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I also wanted to just add that we will have Internet as well.
[51:42.640 --> 51:43.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Very fast Internet.
[51:43.880 --> 51:45.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: The Internet will come to the conference.
[51:45.660 --> 51:47.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we will bring the Internet to the conference.
[51:47.840 --> 51:48.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[51:48.640 --> 51:49.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's me.
[51:49.240 --> 51:53.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Last time, just, you know, I don't want to boast too much about this.
[51:53.180 --> 51:53.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no.
[51:53.600 --> 51:53.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Say it.
[51:53.960 --> 52:00.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had a 10 gigabit connection last time at the conference, which, when you consider the one before that, was 50 megabit.
[52:00.180 --> 52:00.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's pretty good.
[52:01.100 --> 52:06.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I expect this time we'll have, what, what's the next order of magnitude above that?
[52:06.800 --> 52:07.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we...
[52:07.620 --> 52:08.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: A terabit?
[52:08.260 --> 52:08.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that what it is?
[52:09.120 --> 52:10.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: All the Internet.
[52:10.320 --> 52:10.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[52:11.260 --> 52:11.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Quite a lot.
[52:12.100 --> 52:17.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we'll probably bring that back and build upon that, maybe with extra fast wireless or something.
[52:17.860 --> 52:18.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: But who knows?
[52:18.360 --> 52:18.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see.
[52:18.780 --> 52:20.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, we have time for one or two more calls.
[52:20.620 --> 52:22.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: 718-780-8888.
[52:22.660 --> 52:23.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please give us a call now.
[52:23.680 --> 52:23.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[52:23.960 --> 52:28.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I remember when connectivity at Hope meant one room full of dummy terminals.
[52:28.620 --> 52:30.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, which was pretty great for the time.
[52:31.120 --> 52:31.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: The public terminal room.
[52:31.900 --> 52:32.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: I remember that, too.
[52:32.540 --> 52:38.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, our first conference back in 94, also at the Hotel Pennsylvania, uh, we had a single 28-8 modem.
[52:38.620 --> 52:38.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[52:39.220 --> 52:39.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: One.
[52:39.660 --> 52:41.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we've had it, the, it was in the kitchen.
[52:42.680 --> 52:43.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was.
[52:43.660 --> 52:44.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was.
[52:44.980 --> 52:46.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, there was no place else to put it.
[52:46.940 --> 52:52.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, I think we were being denial of service pretty much all weekend, so, uh, we didn't get much connectivity then.
[52:52.220 --> 52:55.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But then again, there weren't many places to go on the net back then.
[52:55.240 --> 52:56.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, let's take another phone call.
[52:56.400 --> 52:56.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[52:56.840 --> 52:57.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the hook.
[52:57.640 --> 52:57.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[52:58.260 --> 52:58.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey.
[52:58.920 --> 52:59.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[53:00.260 --> 53:03.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I'm wondering what email programs you do recommend.
[53:03.940 --> 53:05.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, depends what OS you run.
[53:06.140 --> 53:06.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's so many.
[53:07.080 --> 53:08.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are so many possibilities.
[53:08.100 --> 53:14.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really, um, you have to decide what it is you want out of it, and then, uh, you can, you can pick all kinds of different things.
[53:14.480 --> 53:15.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: Name one that you like.
[53:15.640 --> 53:16.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I like MUT.
[53:16.340 --> 53:17.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: I use MUT in, uh, in shells.
[53:17.480 --> 53:18.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you recommend it?
[53:18.320 --> 53:18.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, absolutely.
[53:19.160 --> 53:19.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[53:19.520 --> 53:20.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: MUT, M-U-T-T?
[53:20.940 --> 53:21.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[53:21.260 --> 53:21.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or MUD?
[53:22.160 --> 53:22.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, MUT.
[53:23.000 --> 53:24.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: There might be something called MUD, as far as I know.
[53:24.700 --> 53:30.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: But if you're running, uh, any, uh, any distribution of Linux, or BSD, or, or, or OSes like that.
[53:30.520 --> 53:31.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm just running Windows.
[53:32.320 --> 53:34.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Windows, then, uh, I don't know.
[53:34.560 --> 53:35.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thunderbird's not bad.
[53:35.440 --> 53:36.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I don't read mail on Windows.
[53:36.660 --> 53:37.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've never done that.
[53:37.480 --> 53:38.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait, hang on.
[53:38.240 --> 53:39.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've got to turn down the radio in the background.
[53:40.740 --> 53:44.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thunderbird is, uh, made by Mozilla, and, uh, that's not bad.
[53:44.220 --> 53:44.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another one is...
[53:44.780 --> 53:45.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I used to use Thunderbird.
[53:46.040 --> 53:47.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Alpine's another one.
[53:48.380 --> 53:49.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which is related to pine.
[53:50.200 --> 53:51.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't talk too fast.
[53:52.620 --> 53:53.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Alpine, Mozilla, right?
[53:53.980 --> 53:55.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: What were the other ones you said before that?
[53:55.820 --> 54:04.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's, there's, um, uh, several others, uh, sometimes integrated into, uh, other sort of office, uh, suites.
[54:04.140 --> 54:05.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that Thunderbird or something?
[54:05.440 --> 54:05.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or...
[54:05.620 --> 54:07.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I said, uh, Thunderbird, which is a Mozilla suite.
[54:07.820 --> 54:08.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[54:08.860 --> 54:09.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[54:09.960 --> 54:10.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[54:10.240 --> 54:18.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I would also suggest that, uh, our friends at the PC show, which comes on after us, uh, would probably have a lot more to say based on, uh, your particular system, what you're looking for.
[54:18.560 --> 54:22.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, I would suggest you, uh, you stay tuned after us and, uh, see what they've got to say.
[54:22.960 --> 54:24.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's so many ways to read mail.
[54:24.320 --> 54:26.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we, we should never all do it the same way.
[54:26.380 --> 54:31.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, in, in, in UNIX systems, you can type the word mail and it's like the most basic mailer ever.
[54:31.540 --> 54:35.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, that's, that's going too far, but it is cool to run these things and see how they work.
[54:35.740 --> 54:37.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's see if we can fit in one more phone call.
[54:38.060 --> 54:38.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[54:38.680 --> 54:39.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the hook.
[54:39.240 --> 54:39.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[54:40.500 --> 54:42.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, uh, I don't want to go on the air with this.
[54:42.620 --> 54:43.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just have a problem.
[54:44.040 --> 54:45.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I haven't gotten...
[54:45.080 --> 54:46.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let me stop you right there.
[54:46.320 --> 54:47.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air now.
[54:47.200 --> 54:49.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if you don't want to go on the air, uh, you sure you don't want to go on the air?
[54:50.460 --> 54:50.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[54:51.000 --> 54:51.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[54:51.240 --> 54:53.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I, I didn't get the premium that I paid for.
[54:53.640 --> 54:54.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
[54:54.320 --> 54:56.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's something that, uh, is an ongoing problem here at the station.
[54:57.060 --> 55:00.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I suggest you write to us, oth@2600.com.
[55:00.880 --> 55:10.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can address your specific, um, um, your specific, uh, details, um, and, um, or contact someone at the radio station, too.
[55:10.700 --> 55:11.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, go to WBAI.org.
[55:12.240 --> 55:12.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, that's it.
[55:13.000 --> 55:16.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we're kind of out of time and, um, boy, time did go fast.
[55:17.000 --> 55:24.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, any announcements, any, um, any, uh, anything that, uh, is coming up this week or anything that happened last week?
[55:25.400 --> 55:29.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, not in particular, but, uh, yeah, check out hope.net, uh, submit stuff.
[55:30.060 --> 55:31.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: We, we want more submissions.
[55:31.120 --> 55:33.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have lots of great ones, but we want your great ones as well.
[55:33.800 --> 55:34.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[55:34.140 --> 55:35.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Make, make hope great again.
[55:35.540 --> 55:45.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, your submissions for talks, for workshops, just your ideas of things you'd like to see, um, yeah, contact us through hope.net and, uh, and let us know.
[55:47.920 --> 56:01.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's always exciting to have hope during an election year, um, because there's always so many extra things to talk about, uh, not just making fun of stupid presidential candidates, stupid slogans, but positive news as well sometimes.
[56:01.560 --> 56:02.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[56:02.540 --> 56:05.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, we'll be back again next week, I believe.
[56:05.300 --> 56:06.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's true.
[56:06.460 --> 56:12.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's so unusual to have, uh, us on the air so many weeks in a row without fundraising, but I think we can manage at least two.
[56:12.860 --> 56:13.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's refreshing.
[56:13.720 --> 56:13.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[56:13.840 --> 56:22.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: But just, just one more thank you to everyone who did, uh, come up to bat during the fundraiser and, uh, and pitch in and help us, uh, keep doing what we're doing because yes, that, that is the only thing that keeps us going.
[56:22.700 --> 56:25.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, our email address, oth@2600.com.
[56:26.120 --> 56:29.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: If there's anything on your mind, if you'd like to share with us, we should be back again next week.
[56:30.000 --> 56:31.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Same time, same station.
[56:31.560 --> 56:33.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: And stay tuned for the personal computer show coming up next.
[56:34.180 --> 56:34.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.