[00:00.000 --> 00:07.500] [SPEAKER_00]: 3940 Broadway at 165th Street for a discussion of how the U.S.
[00:07.560 --> 00:15.900] [SPEAKER_00]: and Israel use incarceration to contain and dismantle resistance and how we can push back and support the boycott movement.
[00:16.220 --> 00:26.180] [SPEAKER_00]: For more information, call 347-709-2264 or email bringmumiyahome at gmail.com.
[00:31.810 --> 00:35.330] [SPEAKER_16]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:35.490 --> 00:38.490] [SPEAKER_16]: The time is just about, oh, I don't know, 7 o'clock?
[00:38.970 --> 00:40.470] [SPEAKER_16]: That means it's time for Off The Hook.
[01:08.790 --> 01:11.830] [SPEAKER_07]: I hope that's understood, but make me know!
[02:37.440 --> 02:39.140] [SPEAKER_16]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:39.260 --> 02:40.420] [SPEAKER_16]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:40.740 --> 02:46.360] [SPEAKER_16]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this delightful Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Rob T. Firefly.
[02:47.320 --> 02:47.760] [SPEAKER_16]: Good evening.
[02:48.000 --> 02:48.700] [SPEAKER_16]: And Kyle?
[02:49.060 --> 02:49.980] [SPEAKER_16]: Hello, hackers.
[02:50.280 --> 02:52.560] [SPEAKER_16]: And somewhere is Bernie S.
[02:53.340 --> 02:54.680] [SPEAKER_01]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:54.680 --> 02:58.480] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually in a closet in the back of an Irish pub right now.
[02:58.600 --> 03:00.780] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, we don't need to know about your private life.
[03:02.180 --> 03:03.380] [SPEAKER_14]: Who put you there?
[03:03.380 --> 03:04.920] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, it's not really...
[03:04.920 --> 03:06.720] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be coming out of the closet in an hour, though.
[03:07.120 --> 03:07.340] [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[03:07.540 --> 03:09.000] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, well, good to hear that, too.
[03:09.620 --> 03:14.600] [SPEAKER_16]: And we'll have a special guest coming on board in just a little bit.
[03:14.680 --> 03:21.740] [SPEAKER_16]: But first, some news updates, things that have been going on in the last few days.
[03:21.980 --> 03:24.120] [SPEAKER_16]: First of all, a hope update.
[03:25.860 --> 03:27.440] [SPEAKER_16]: Gosh, how do I say this?
[03:27.960 --> 03:29.560] [SPEAKER_16]: We pretty much sold out.
[03:29.820 --> 03:33.060] [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, there will be some tickets left at the door.
[03:33.520 --> 03:34.640] [SPEAKER_16]: But we don't know how many.
[03:34.800 --> 03:38.980] [SPEAKER_16]: It all depends on how things are working out.
[03:39.160 --> 03:40.060] [SPEAKER_16]: It's not going to be a lot.
[03:40.060 --> 03:40.960] [SPEAKER_16]: I'll tell you that right now.
[03:41.180 --> 03:45.160] [SPEAKER_16]: I think there's maybe a couple left on the website.
[03:45.220 --> 03:52.780] [SPEAKER_16]: But we put some up for people that might have missed out when we actually had to close it down last week.
[03:53.420 --> 03:54.680] [SPEAKER_16]: And that went very fast.
[03:54.740 --> 03:56.840] [SPEAKER_16]: But I think there might just be one or two left.
[03:56.840 --> 03:59.640] [SPEAKER_16]: So this is really the last chance to get those.
[04:00.380 --> 04:02.680] [SPEAKER_16]: Hope.net, the conference, is next week.
[04:02.880 --> 04:04.660] [SPEAKER_16]: This is our last show before the conference.
[04:04.780 --> 04:06.380] [SPEAKER_16]: In fact, we won't be back on until August.
[04:07.160 --> 04:09.220] [SPEAKER_16]: And I think we need the time off, right?
[04:09.280 --> 04:10.680] [SPEAKER_16]: Because we're just going nuts.
[04:12.680 --> 04:21.150] [SPEAKER_16]: But we're going to be talking about hope and various other things that we're planning for the Hackers on Planet Earth conference at the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[04:21.980 --> 04:25.980] [SPEAKER_16]: But first, more importantly, what is up with Pokemon Go?
[04:26.120 --> 04:26.530] [SPEAKER_16]: My God.
[04:28.020 --> 04:30.410] [SPEAKER_16]: We've been inundated with stories about this.
[04:31.320 --> 04:32.600] [SPEAKER_16]: You know, Kyle and I have been driving around.
[04:32.600 --> 04:34.580] [SPEAKER_16]: And we noticed this a couple of days ago.
[04:34.720 --> 04:38.120] [SPEAKER_16]: Just a town out on the island, Port Jefferson.
[04:38.300 --> 04:40.410] [SPEAKER_16]: People were just mobbing the place.
[04:40.440 --> 04:41.360] [SPEAKER_16]: And we knew something was up.
[04:41.410 --> 04:42.620] [SPEAKER_16]: I didn't know about this Pokemon thing.
[04:43.600 --> 04:45.180] [SPEAKER_16]: And everyone's staring at their phones.
[04:45.240 --> 04:50.080] [SPEAKER_16]: I just thought it was normal antisocial behavior that we're surrounded by.
[04:50.080 --> 04:52.400] [SPEAKER_16]: And everyone's looking at their phone, not talking to the people they're with.
[04:52.480 --> 04:55.740] [SPEAKER_16]: And why don't they ever hang out with the people that they are talking to on the phone?
[04:56.180 --> 04:57.800] [SPEAKER_16]: Apparently, they weren't talking to anybody on the phone.
[04:57.880 --> 05:00.460] [SPEAKER_16]: They were hunting Pokemon or whatever it is that you do.
[05:00.680 --> 05:01.770] [SPEAKER_14]: It looked exaggerated.
[05:01.770 --> 05:04.800] [SPEAKER_14]: It was more staring at the phone than we're used to.
[05:04.900 --> 05:07.910] [SPEAKER_14]: Which we are, as a society, I think a bit more used to.
[05:08.020 --> 05:09.600] [SPEAKER_14]: But it was stark.
[05:09.600 --> 05:19.340] [SPEAKER_14]: It was very almost disturbing to see these people just sort of engrossed in whatever visual display is in their palm.
[05:20.080 --> 05:26.220] [SPEAKER_14]: And not actually really doing anything in that space that you would consider normal.
[05:26.400 --> 05:27.260] [SPEAKER_14]: Especially for the time.
[05:27.460 --> 05:29.880] [SPEAKER_14]: This is happening at all hours of the day and night.
[05:30.120 --> 05:32.660] [SPEAKER_14]: And, well, we found out what it is.
[05:32.800 --> 05:33.740] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I just think...
[05:33.740 --> 05:37.040] [SPEAKER_16]: I think it's good that we saw something going on.
[05:37.040 --> 05:38.920] [SPEAKER_16]: And we knew right away this isn't right.
[05:39.080 --> 05:41.220] [SPEAKER_16]: There's something wrong with this scene here.
[05:41.440 --> 05:43.680] [SPEAKER_16]: Too many people are in the streets at all hours.
[05:43.720 --> 05:44.920] [SPEAKER_16]: And they're all looking at their phones.
[05:45.860 --> 05:48.260] [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, we're used to this kind of behavior.
[05:48.260 --> 05:50.500] [SPEAKER_16]: But this is a bit much.
[05:50.620 --> 05:53.170] [SPEAKER_16]: And that was before I had any idea what they were actually doing.
[05:53.340 --> 05:59.120] [SPEAKER_16]: And it wasn't until, I think, yesterday that we confirmed that, yes, in fact, these people are engaged in...
[05:59.120 --> 06:00.780] [SPEAKER_16]: What do you call these kinds of games?
[06:02.000 --> 06:03.050] [SPEAKER_16]: Augmented reality games.
[06:03.080 --> 06:03.900] [SPEAKER_16]: Augmented reality games.
[06:04.050 --> 06:04.170] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[06:04.860 --> 06:05.760] [SPEAKER_16]: Where you actually...
[06:05.760 --> 06:09.140] [SPEAKER_16]: In fact, there's an article in the New 2600 that just came out.
[06:09.760 --> 06:12.660] [SPEAKER_16]: But it's called Gaming Ingress.
[06:13.340 --> 06:16.400] [SPEAKER_16]: And this was the first time I had ever even heard about something like this.
[06:16.480 --> 06:17.280] [SPEAKER_16]: That's how out of it I am.
[06:17.460 --> 06:22.860] [SPEAKER_16]: That there are games where you actually have to go places physically and, I guess, what?
[06:23.000 --> 06:23.400] [SPEAKER_16]: Check in?
[06:23.460 --> 06:24.600] [SPEAKER_16]: Is that what you call it?
[06:24.720 --> 06:26.540] [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's augmented reality.
[06:26.790 --> 06:30.040] [SPEAKER_13]: It uses your phone's camera to look at the actual environment around you.
[06:30.170 --> 06:32.160] [SPEAKER_13]: But then insert digital things into that environment.
[06:32.290 --> 06:34.280] [SPEAKER_13]: Insert virtual things into the real environment.
[06:34.280 --> 06:42.400] [SPEAKER_13]: So when you're in a certain place and your phone senses this through GPS, you can then hold up your phone and it will show you your surroundings.
[06:42.400 --> 06:46.420] [SPEAKER_13]: But it will also show you the imaginary digital thingy that's standing right there in the game.
[06:46.600 --> 06:46.700] [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[06:46.760 --> 06:54.880] [SPEAKER_14]: There's an overlay of like a story or characters and different goals within the context of the game's storyline.
[06:55.550 --> 07:10.280] [SPEAKER_14]: Except you're sort of participating in that storyline through acting or being in a real space that has been associated with the game in making use of the map functionality and GPS and stuff.
[07:10.460 --> 07:17.760] [SPEAKER_13]: And what this also means is that if you're making a game that uses this, you can place things in your game at certain spots in the real world.
[07:18.220 --> 07:19.260] [SPEAKER_16]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[07:20.040 --> 07:39.100] [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to say, this reminds me a lot of similar technology, but only halfway to where it is now, which is around 2000, geocaching became popular, where people were using GPS receivers, GPS navigators, and the Internet, this is before smartphones,
[07:39.400 --> 07:54.100] [SPEAKER_01]: 2000, to tell people that they had hidden, you know, little tchotchkes or whatever, near particular GPS coordinates under a tree, behind a stream, that sort of thing.
[07:54.260 --> 07:54.900] [SPEAKER_01]: It was more like a...
[07:54.900 --> 07:59.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was half virtual world and half real world.
[07:59.160 --> 08:03.200] [SPEAKER_01]: And now we're even closer to the augmented reality.
[08:03.200 --> 08:27.000] [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it's more of like a scavenger hunt or a treasure hunt, because you're actually getting a physical object or unearthing some kind of thing that you can take back, or a storage device, like a little box or treasure chest, as it were, to bring a memento from this find that you made,
[08:27.140 --> 08:44.040] [SPEAKER_14]: whereas this is... those items and things are within the game itself, and has a lot of different ways you can... it ends up having unintended consequences, where certain things, it might be... maybe it's just a flagpole or a monument, it might have a different value in the context of the game.
[08:44.170 --> 08:46.200] [SPEAKER_14]: It can be turned into something else.
[08:46.200 --> 08:49.170] [SPEAKER_14]: It might be some kind of facility in the game's story.
[08:49.280 --> 08:57.500] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I'd just like to ask the other people here if you guys have actually noticed behavior from... from human beings in the street.
[08:57.600 --> 08:57.960] [SPEAKER_13]: Rob, have you?
[08:58.220 --> 08:58.940] [SPEAKER_13]: I have.
[08:59.040 --> 09:13.360] [SPEAKER_13]: Not in the street, but at my day job, everyone was talking about this when it came out, and somebody was showing me what it was during lunch, and in the process of this, found one of the imaginary creatures on the plate of the person eating food across from him,
[09:13.820 --> 09:15.160] [SPEAKER_13]: and was able to capture it.
[09:15.160 --> 09:16.670] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, well, I can tell you exactly what happened there.
[09:16.860 --> 09:19.500] [SPEAKER_16]: He had just... just gotten the game, right?
[09:19.720 --> 09:19.880] [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[09:19.880 --> 09:20.400] [SPEAKER_16]: When this happened.
[09:20.580 --> 09:23.720] [SPEAKER_16]: When you first get the game, they show up right in front of you.
[09:23.720 --> 09:36.170] [SPEAKER_16]: I know because we were driving and it was right on the dashboard in front of us, and instead of swerving all over the street like we were doing, all we had to do was was throw a ball at the thing and we didn't have to... now, don't do that, folks.
[09:36.290 --> 09:41.860] [SPEAKER_16]: Now, I was a passenger and I wasn't in any way causing problems for Kyle, who was driving.
[09:42.000 --> 09:49.220] [SPEAKER_16]: I just was very excited when I saw that this thing was right on the dashboard and all you had to do was throw a ball at it, and then I think you get a free one when you start.
[09:49.620 --> 10:00.050] [SPEAKER_13]: Another one reportedly in the real world was yesterday, I think, and the day before it was Manhattanhenge, where if you're in a certain part of New York City, the sun lines up perfectly with the streets.
[10:00.380 --> 10:01.580] [SPEAKER_16]: The second leg of Manhattanhenge.
[10:01.720 --> 10:02.790] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, the second leg of Manhattanhenge.
[10:02.960 --> 10:12.480] [SPEAKER_13]: And so this is normally something where people will gather in crowds and take pictures, stand out in the middle of the street when traffic lights allow, hopefully, and take pictures of what's going on.
[10:12.830 --> 10:17.930] [SPEAKER_13]: But now people were reporting at this that not everyone was standing up obliviously behind their phones.
[10:17.930 --> 10:21.020] [SPEAKER_13]: They were also looking down at their phones because they were doing this thing.
[10:21.120 --> 10:22.900] [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, did you notice any behavior?
[10:24.220 --> 10:25.280] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I haven't.
[10:25.380 --> 10:31.020] [SPEAKER_01]: But I've been wondering if these Pokemons, do they run out into the street and cause people to slurve?
[10:31.040 --> 10:35.260] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it's interesting you should say that because that's one of the first things that I think any of us thought of.
[10:35.260 --> 10:39.050] [SPEAKER_16]: All these people running around with phones trying to hunt imaginary creatures.
[10:39.050 --> 10:40.810] [SPEAKER_16]: You have all kinds of situations.
[10:40.810 --> 10:45.310] [SPEAKER_14]: This is actually one of the reasons this did not appear as a phenomena sooner.
[10:45.310 --> 11:04.200] [SPEAKER_14]: The parent company behind this game is very concerned about their brand and the image and wanted safety to become a big part of their research and development so that it was actually ready to be used in real world places where you have hazards like that.
[11:04.380 --> 11:08.900] [SPEAKER_14]: They didn't want kids going into the street, you know, playing this game and getting hurt as a result.
[11:09.100 --> 11:14.240] [SPEAKER_14]: It would reflect badly on their brand and on the game and the fun of it itself.
[11:14.240 --> 11:28.040] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you know, there are a bunch of things that are going on, though, because apparently what they call PokeStops are basically put in recognizable places, historical landmarks, things like that.
[11:28.220 --> 11:37.240] [SPEAKER_16]: It's causing problems because some historical landmarks aren't really into all these people running around with their phones hunting these creatures.
[11:37.960 --> 11:40.560] [SPEAKER_16]: Washington, D.C.'s holocaust Museum springs to mind.
[11:40.700 --> 11:42.100] [SPEAKER_16]: They're not amused at all.
[11:42.220 --> 11:45.460] [SPEAKER_16]: They've asked Pokemon Go players to stay away.
[11:45.680 --> 11:52.660] [SPEAKER_16]: The museum has been designated a PokeStop where players can pick up items like PokeBalls and Revives, of course.
[11:53.480 --> 12:02.330] [SPEAKER_16]: And basically, their communications director was forced to point out that playing a game inside a memorial to victims of Nazism is extremely inappropriate.
[12:03.370 --> 12:07.660] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I mean, but how do you stop it once it's actually there?
[12:07.820 --> 12:14.280] [SPEAKER_16]: Once you actually label something a PokeStop, it's kind of hard, I think, to unlabel it then.
[12:14.540 --> 12:21.160] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I also saw a friend of mine posted on Twitter a picture of a Pokemon that was in one of the reflecting pools at the World Trade Center Memorial.
[12:22.120 --> 12:22.620] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[12:23.040 --> 12:32.680] [SPEAKER_16]: It seems to me, though, that this could be sort of fused with activism in an interesting way if you could assign certain strategic spots where people need to get to.
[12:32.860 --> 12:40.320] [SPEAKER_16]: And there's really not much that the authorities can do about that, especially if people are trying to get to places that they deem to be off-limits.
[12:40.320 --> 12:50.040] [SPEAKER_16]: What I don't know, and maybe one of you guys understands how this works, and I've been familiar with this, somewhat familiar with this, for exactly 20 hours, maybe.
[12:50.720 --> 12:55.880] [SPEAKER_16]: How do you label a location as something that people should go to?
[12:55.960 --> 12:59.900] [SPEAKER_16]: Do we have the ability to do that, or is that something that only the game manufacturer people can do?
[12:59.900 --> 13:11.720] [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, our curiosity is, what level would it be that you then can make those designations, or is it even something that corresponds with the level that you've reached?
[13:11.800 --> 13:11.900] [SPEAKER_14]: Rob?
[13:12.080 --> 13:21.080] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, for this particular game, it seems to be something that just the game company themselves has some kind of algorithm to assign these values to real-world things.
[13:21.440 --> 13:25.160] [SPEAKER_13]: One of the requirements appears to be places of worship.
[13:25.800 --> 13:28.800] [SPEAKER_13]: Real-world places of worship are important in the Pokemon game.
[13:29.260 --> 13:32.320] [SPEAKER_16]: We had to go to the first Presbyterian church at 2 in the morning yesterday.
[13:32.800 --> 13:36.700] [SPEAKER_16]: And believe me, they were not happy about that, but you had to hunt these things.
[13:36.780 --> 13:44.500] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and the funny thing about this, too, is whatever database the game operators are using might not always be up-to-date.
[13:44.500 --> 13:49.180] [SPEAKER_13]: There is a case of a person who lives in a house that used to, at one point, be a church.
[13:49.440 --> 14:02.380] [SPEAKER_13]: And now, since his place is still marked as a church in whatever database that Nintendo uses, he's now got kids milling about on his lawn trying to catch Pokemon or recharge them or whatever you do because the machine thinks he's a church.
[14:02.860 --> 14:03.380] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[14:03.520 --> 14:03.700] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[14:03.860 --> 14:06.280] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, that's a bit disturbing.
[14:06.420 --> 14:11.960] [SPEAKER_16]: But it makes me think that you can't just label your enemy's house as a Pokestop.
[14:12.060 --> 14:15.440] [SPEAKER_16]: Although they have these things, believe it or not, called lure modules.
[14:15.740 --> 14:18.280] [SPEAKER_16]: Lure modules sounds really ominous.
[14:18.280 --> 14:20.060] [SPEAKER_16]: Where you can lure...
[14:20.060 --> 14:21.720] [SPEAKER_16]: But apparently, what you lure are Pokemon.
[14:22.240 --> 14:24.060] [SPEAKER_16]: Is that the right plural use?
[14:24.160 --> 14:24.520] [SPEAKER_16]: Pokemon?
[14:24.880 --> 14:25.040] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[14:25.260 --> 14:26.680] [SPEAKER_13]: It's like sheep and sheep.
[14:26.860 --> 14:27.020] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[14:27.200 --> 14:30.330] [SPEAKER_16]: So, basically, you're not luring other humans.
[14:30.360 --> 14:32.500] [SPEAKER_16]: You're just luring the characters that you then hunt.
[14:32.620 --> 14:35.140] [SPEAKER_16]: But it's possible you can lure humans, too.
[14:35.330 --> 14:40.480] [SPEAKER_16]: And there's concern over predators and criminals and things like that.
[14:40.480 --> 14:48.380] [SPEAKER_16]: So, I've never seen a crowd of people so quickly influenced to do things except on television.
[14:48.720 --> 14:54.820] [SPEAKER_16]: We were in a small village last night that was crowded with people hours after the village had closed.
[14:55.300 --> 14:58.560] [SPEAKER_16]: And the authorities really didn't seem to be that concerned.
[14:58.780 --> 15:00.140] [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, there was nothing they really were concerned about.
[15:00.140 --> 15:01.860] [SPEAKER_16]: But it was an awfully weird scene.
[15:01.860 --> 15:15.160] [SPEAKER_13]: Well, one of the main things about the video gaming scene, and in general, is that it's fueled by speculation, possibilities, hidden things, Easter eggs, things that you can be the first one to find or the only one to find.
[15:15.460 --> 15:28.500] [SPEAKER_13]: And so, in regards to the whole what can be done with this, I think if you started a rumor that something in the game was at a specific place, you could immediately have every player in the immediate area converge on it.
[15:28.500 --> 15:36.830] [SPEAKER_16]: So, yeah, I haven't communicated with any other people yet, but I know there's all kinds of things you can do, and it can take a lot of your time.
[15:36.940 --> 15:43.540] [SPEAKER_14]: It's really odd to just see how people come together and are intrigued by it just from a puzzle-solving perspective.
[15:43.620 --> 15:47.160] [SPEAKER_14]: And I think it's along the lines of what Rob was saying, that there's this fascination.
[15:47.300 --> 15:53.620] [SPEAKER_14]: People not only started using it very, very quickly, but are also figuring it out very, very quickly.
[15:54.130 --> 16:04.560] [SPEAKER_14]: They may have been just introduced to it in the last week, and there are already so many people that have a pretty good understanding of what it's all about and how it works.
[16:04.660 --> 16:07.160] [SPEAKER_14]: But there's this sense of sharing, too.
[16:07.330 --> 16:11.880] [SPEAKER_14]: There's a lot of people going through the same sort of things, figuring it out.
[16:11.900 --> 16:14.760] [SPEAKER_14]: As you said, you already knew what this other person was doing.
[16:15.520 --> 16:20.380] [SPEAKER_14]: They had seen something in front of them, and that's a result of becoming a new player in the game.
[16:20.380 --> 16:29.220] [SPEAKER_14]: But it really was fascinating to see the intrigue at just figuring it out and looking at it from a puzzle-solving perspective.
[16:29.460 --> 16:30.640] [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, yes, last word on this.
[16:31.880 --> 16:41.100] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned a couple of months ago a challenge for people to get sued by Donald Trump to get a free ticket or something.
[16:41.100 --> 17:00.600] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering, certainly I wouldn't advocate this or not, but I would be amused if some hacker were to hack into the servers of this Pokemon game company and have a mobile PokeStop that would follow Donald Trump around with hundreds of Pokemons and points and things you'd gather up.
[17:00.600 --> 17:12.760] [SPEAKER_01]: So then you'd have all these people, an even greater number, just pawing over Donald Trump and the Secret Service would have to send off real people while the virtual Pokemon would be scurrying about.
[17:13.000 --> 17:16.100] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, this is definitely fodder for hackers to play with.
[17:16.160 --> 17:20.280] [SPEAKER_16]: And in fact, I'm certain this is going to be a thing at the Hope Conference.
[17:20.280 --> 17:34.520] [SPEAKER_16]: So if somebody can figure out a fun thing to do with Pokemon Go for Hope, we'd love to see what you are able to create and what imaginative uses we might be able to demonstrate to the world.
[17:35.040 --> 17:38.420] [SPEAKER_16]: But wow, that's... I never expected to be talking about something like this.
[17:38.520 --> 17:39.240] [SPEAKER_16]: But it's weird.
[17:39.240 --> 17:40.220] [SPEAKER_16]: It's going on outside.
[17:40.220 --> 17:42.480] [SPEAKER_16]: It's something that you can't help but notice.
[17:43.320 --> 17:45.480] [SPEAKER_14]: And everybody seems to know about it.
[17:45.740 --> 17:47.320] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, they sure do.
[17:47.360 --> 17:48.180] [SPEAKER_16]: It's all over the media.
[17:48.180 --> 17:50.040] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, so that's that.
[17:50.320 --> 17:54.340] [SPEAKER_16]: Write to us, oth@2600.com, if you have any comments on this or anything else.
[17:54.540 --> 18:01.040] [SPEAKER_16]: Moving on, going back to the Hope Conference, which will be taking place a week from this coming Friday.
[18:01.460 --> 18:02.480] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow, I can't believe it.
[18:02.660 --> 18:04.120] [SPEAKER_16]: But in two weeks, it'll be over.
[18:04.460 --> 18:05.520] [SPEAKER_16]: We can rest.
[18:06.320 --> 18:11.000] [SPEAKER_16]: But we've been featuring some of the talks that are coming up.
[18:11.000 --> 18:17.380] [SPEAKER_16]: We have, I believe, well over 100 talks, if you count all the tracks that we have and workshops.
[18:17.380 --> 18:20.540] [SPEAKER_16]: Just so many different things to present.
[18:20.720 --> 18:23.580] [SPEAKER_16]: But this is one that's near and dear to my heart.
[18:23.620 --> 18:25.600] [SPEAKER_16]: I know it is to yours as well, Bernie.
[18:26.560 --> 18:32.800] [SPEAKER_16]: This is a talk on tuning in to New York City's Pirates of the Air, pirate radio here in New York.
[18:33.240 --> 18:40.580] [SPEAKER_16]: And we have with us in the studio right now David Gorin, who will be giving that talk Friday, a week from Friday at the Hope Conference.
[18:40.740 --> 18:41.140] [SPEAKER_16]: David, welcome.
[18:41.600 --> 18:42.500] [SPEAKER_16]: Hey, thanks.
[18:42.720 --> 18:43.620] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm happy to be here.
[18:43.620 --> 18:44.240] [SPEAKER_16]: Thanks for having me.
[18:44.300 --> 18:47.700] [SPEAKER_16]: So now, how did you get interested in pirate radio, listening to pirate radio?
[18:48.020 --> 18:51.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm a long-time shortwave radio listener.
[18:52.840 --> 18:57.180] [SPEAKER_11]: And starting sort of seriously back in the late 70s, early 80s.
[18:57.220 --> 19:00.400] [SPEAKER_11]: And that's really, in my experience, where you could hear pirates.
[19:02.720 --> 19:03.660] [SPEAKER_11]: Occasionally on AM.
[19:03.880 --> 19:09.820] [SPEAKER_11]: But I started coming up to New York City in the mid-80s and heard actual FM pirates.
[19:09.820 --> 19:13.620] [SPEAKER_11]: It was sort of like a hobby broadcasting scene.
[19:13.760 --> 19:17.520] [SPEAKER_11]: There was WHOT, WFUN, playing oldies.
[19:17.740 --> 19:22.200] [SPEAKER_11]: They were on discreetly, usually on 91.5 or 91.9.
[19:22.300 --> 19:22.820] [SPEAKER_16]: 91.9.
[19:22.900 --> 19:23.860] [SPEAKER_16]: That's always where I'd find them.
[19:23.880 --> 19:24.140] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[19:24.320 --> 19:26.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, also, 91.5 WNYE.
[19:27.060 --> 19:28.180] [SPEAKER_11]: They used to sign off at midnight.
[19:28.400 --> 19:28.960] [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, okay.
[19:29.000 --> 19:30.760] [SPEAKER_16]: So then the pirates just would sign back on.
[19:30.820 --> 19:30.940] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[19:31.080 --> 19:33.440] [SPEAKER_11]: And they were always on very discreetly on the weekends.
[19:33.440 --> 19:35.540] [SPEAKER_11]: I heard they had some coordination between them.
[19:35.540 --> 19:38.360] [SPEAKER_11]: And this went on.
[19:38.520 --> 19:46.040] [SPEAKER_11]: And then starting around 94.95, there was a station, WBAD, which is sort of a precursor of what we have now.
[19:46.300 --> 19:49.160] [SPEAKER_11]: They started playing hip-hop all the time on 91.9.
[19:49.280 --> 19:50.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Again, mostly in the evenings.
[19:50.560 --> 19:54.820] [SPEAKER_11]: But they were on in hours that the previous pirates weren't.
[19:54.820 --> 20:07.480] [SPEAKER_11]: And then starting in late 96, I started to hear on 87.9, a Haitian broadcaster, 88.1, Radio Moshiach from the Lubavitcher Hasidic community were on the air.
[20:08.960 --> 20:13.500] [SPEAKER_11]: And slowly it grew, and it's been going on almost 20 years.
[20:13.980 --> 20:23.140] [SPEAKER_11]: There are Caribbean stations, Orthodox jewish stations, Spanish stations, religious stations within the Caribbean community.
[20:23.580 --> 20:32.180] [SPEAKER_11]: And now on a typical evening or weekend, which is the peak hours, I live in Flatbush, Brooklyn, and I can hear about 35 stations.
[20:32.180 --> 20:37.420] [SPEAKER_16]: Now, most of the frequencies you mentioned are below 92, but I understand that the pirates are everywhere.
[20:37.680 --> 20:38.560] [SPEAKER_11]: They're all the way up the dial.
[20:38.720 --> 20:41.160] [SPEAKER_11]: They go up to 107.9, which is the Flava station.
[20:41.180 --> 20:42.840] [SPEAKER_11]: They're just everywhere.
[20:45.620 --> 20:49.540] [SPEAKER_11]: Sometimes, some of them seem savvy, and some of them seem like they don't have a clue.
[20:49.700 --> 20:51.880] [SPEAKER_11]: They'll be right next to WNYC.
[20:52.600 --> 20:53.840] [SPEAKER_16]: They're right next to us, too.
[20:53.940 --> 20:54.520] [SPEAKER_16]: 99.3.
[20:54.620 --> 20:55.240] [SPEAKER_16]: I caught a pirate.
[20:55.320 --> 20:56.180] [SPEAKER_11]: There's 99.3.
[20:56.380 --> 20:57.700] [SPEAKER_11]: That's Star FM.
[20:57.960 --> 20:59.220] [SPEAKER_11]: You know who they are.
[20:59.400 --> 20:59.560] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[20:59.880 --> 21:00.900] [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, that's exactly it.
[21:00.900 --> 21:02.200] [SPEAKER_16]: Could you pass a message to them?
[21:02.620 --> 21:05.320] [SPEAKER_16]: Please, move to a different frequency because it's too close to us.
[21:05.460 --> 21:07.500] [SPEAKER_16]: And we're a little nervous about that.
[21:08.040 --> 21:12.040] [SPEAKER_16]: But you mentioned 87.7, I believe.
[21:12.100 --> 21:12.700] [SPEAKER_16]: 87.9.
[21:12.840 --> 21:15.260] [SPEAKER_11]: 87.7, it's interesting, but it's not a pirate.
[21:15.260 --> 21:16.540] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a Franken-FM.
[21:16.700 --> 21:18.940] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, that used to be on Channel 6, right?
[21:19.080 --> 21:19.260] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[21:19.380 --> 21:20.040] [SPEAKER_11]: It's still on...
[21:20.040 --> 21:21.160] [SPEAKER_11]: It's Channel 6 audio.
[21:21.520 --> 21:29.780] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think Bernie may know more about this, but I think for a while they had to have something visual, but I'm not sure they have to anymore.
[21:29.780 --> 21:33.800] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, since they've gone digital, is Channel 6 even at that frequency anymore?
[21:34.380 --> 21:35.220] [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, do you know?
[21:36.460 --> 21:37.000] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[21:37.160 --> 21:39.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Channel 6 still does have...
[21:39.380 --> 21:43.920] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the FCC does still allow analog TV broadcasting on Channel 6.
[21:43.920 --> 21:56.700] [SPEAKER_01]: The original plan over the FCC years ago was to have all the VHF TV6 frequencies moved up to higher frequencies in digital mode.
[21:57.180 --> 22:07.840] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was only like a handful of them across the country, including WPVI here in Philadelphia, that said, no, no, no, no, no, we want to stay on Channel 6 because our signal will go farther on this lower frequency.
[22:07.840 --> 22:10.340] [SPEAKER_01]: And the FCC, as it turned out, it didn't.
[22:10.440 --> 22:14.440] [SPEAKER_01]: It really screwed themselves, and they had to ask for higher power levels once it went digital.
[22:14.600 --> 22:22.960] [SPEAKER_01]: But what the FCC's plan was, was to expand the FM broadcast band downwards to like 76 megahertz, which would have been awesome.
[22:23.100 --> 22:23.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[22:23.360 --> 22:25.260] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have freed up all this extra spectrum.
[22:25.700 --> 22:27.840] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have gone from 88 to 108.
[22:27.840 --> 22:29.440] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have gone from 76 to 108.
[22:29.620 --> 22:36.920] [SPEAKER_01]: But because of a few TV station holdouts that just were like dogs in a manger kind of a situation, they wanted to stay there, and it was to their own detriment.
[22:37.100 --> 22:38.580] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really a shame it worked out this way.
[22:38.700 --> 22:46.920] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is one of the reasons why we have pirate radio, because there aren't enough frequency slots available to serve a community.
[22:47.440 --> 22:48.500] [SPEAKER_11]: That's exactly right.
[22:48.500 --> 22:56.720] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's been growing over the years, and it seems so chaotic that I could not really make any sense of who the stations were.
[22:56.720 --> 23:01.260] [SPEAKER_11]: Whenever you see online people talking about the pirate scene, you just see a big string of numbers.
[23:01.460 --> 23:06.620] [SPEAKER_11]: So about two years ago, I decided to apply some of my shortwave research skills.
[23:06.740 --> 23:12.640] [SPEAKER_11]: And I'm a radio producer, and I've done a lot of pieces on radio and community and number stations and all sorts of things.
[23:12.740 --> 23:20.660] [SPEAKER_11]: So I made a big chart, which documents everything I've heard in those two years, as well as some historical things.
[23:21.320 --> 23:35.300] [SPEAKER_11]: And so at the Hope Conference, I'll be presenting my research in the chart, and I'll be playing a lot of samples, and I've been talking to station managers and pirate listeners, and I'm on the trail of a few pirate operators, but they're hard to get a hold of.
[23:35.480 --> 23:41.060] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, on the subject of samples, you've brought some with you today, and we have one queued up.
[23:41.420 --> 23:43.340] [SPEAKER_16]: Do you want to intro this and tell us what we're going to hear?
[23:43.340 --> 23:48.620] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, this is 92.1.
[23:48.780 --> 23:51.240] [SPEAKER_11]: I probably recorded this in 2014.
[23:52.460 --> 23:53.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Grace Deliverance...
[23:53.380 --> 23:58.580] [SPEAKER_11]: They're called GD Radio, not for the Grateful Dead, but for Grace Deliverance Chapel in Brooklyn.
[23:58.960 --> 24:00.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Not sure they're on this frequency.
[24:00.860 --> 24:02.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Someone else is on now.
[24:02.200 --> 24:06.880] [SPEAKER_11]: But this is a really interesting minute-long excerpt of a DJ.
[24:06.880 --> 24:09.120] [SPEAKER_11]: DJ, he's been greeting his audience.
[24:09.500 --> 24:11.860] [SPEAKER_11]: He's probably somewhere in Flatbush Crown Heights.
[24:11.860 --> 24:24.280] [SPEAKER_11]: He's of Caribbean heritage, but he's saying hello to his Spanish listeners, and in this segment, he shouts out to his Yiddish fans in Crown Heights.
[24:24.840 --> 24:25.900] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, here we go.
[24:26.660 --> 24:28.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Everybody should pray, my Lord.
[24:33.760 --> 24:35.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Everybody should pray.
[24:44.180 --> 24:50.540] [SPEAKER_05]: Our Lord is great and great to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of His holiness.
[24:51.520 --> 24:54.820] [SPEAKER_05]: The beautiful situation is the joy of the whole world.
[24:54.980 --> 25:00.740] [SPEAKER_05]: The joy of the whole world is Mount Zion on the side of the north, the city of the great king.
[25:01.320 --> 25:01.900] Praise Him!
[25:06.460 --> 25:09.540] [SPEAKER_04]: From the rising of the sun until the going down of the same.
[25:09.700 --> 25:12.320] [SPEAKER_04]: The name of the Lord is to be praised.
[25:12.740 --> 25:13.480] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[25:14.280 --> 25:14.500] Praise Him!
[25:17.390 --> 25:19.690] [SPEAKER_05]: To all my jewish people up there in Crown Heights.
[25:20.870 --> 25:21.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Vos Maxter.
[25:22.730 --> 25:23.330] [SPEAKER_05]: Praise Him!
[25:24.070 --> 25:25.610] [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody should pray, my Lord.
[25:26.650 --> 25:27.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Everything is good.
[25:27.750 --> 25:28.090] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
[25:29.310 --> 25:29.990] [SPEAKER_05]: Malkishim.
[25:30.370 --> 25:31.470] [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody should pray, my Lord.
[25:31.470 --> 25:32.230] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank God.
[25:33.590 --> 25:34.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Good afternoon!
[25:35.070 --> 25:36.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[25:37.350 --> 25:40.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody should pray, my Lord.
[25:40.610 --> 25:41.670] My, my Lord.
[25:41.870 --> 25:42.250] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[25:42.450 --> 25:42.730] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[25:42.870 --> 25:44.330] [SPEAKER_16]: You know, I want to keep listening to that station.
[25:44.410 --> 25:44.870] [SPEAKER_16]: I really do.
[25:45.090 --> 25:46.390] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a really infectious track.
[25:46.430 --> 25:49.830] [SPEAKER_11]: I have a five-minute chunk, but I just thought I'd winnow it down too bad.
[25:49.890 --> 25:51.510] [SPEAKER_16]: So that was recorded in Brooklyn.
[25:51.690 --> 25:52.470] [SPEAKER_11]: That was recorded in Brooklyn.
[25:52.470 --> 25:56.430] [SPEAKER_11]: I have a listening post in my house in Flatbush.
[25:56.510 --> 25:59.390] [SPEAKER_11]: So I'm really kind of right in ground zero.
[25:59.390 --> 26:06.030] [SPEAKER_11]: I can hear, I can hear stations from New Jersey and the Bronx, but really the main beat of what I hear is in Flatbush.
[26:06.430 --> 26:07.530] [SPEAKER_11]: Mostly, mostly Caribbean.
[26:07.530 --> 26:09.510] [SPEAKER_16]: And what kind of range can a station like that get?
[26:11.250 --> 26:13.290] [SPEAKER_16]: Probably three to five miles plus.
[26:13.570 --> 26:16.130] [SPEAKER_16]: That's a lot in a packed city like this.
[26:16.650 --> 26:17.410] [SPEAKER_11]: It's amazing.
[26:17.590 --> 26:21.350] [SPEAKER_11]: There are as many pirates as there are licensed stations.
[26:21.350 --> 26:37.230] [SPEAKER_11]: And the farthest that I've heard is either 98.9 in the Bronx or on 91.7, which is home to sort of a round robin, and I have some more samples from that frequency, sometimes during the day when most of the pirates are off, but it sort of gives you an example,
[26:38.190 --> 26:43.750] [SPEAKER_11]: a moment to hear places beyond the local because the local stations are off.
[26:43.910 --> 26:50.890] [SPEAKER_11]: So in Essex County, about 28 miles away, there's a station called GEMS, G-E-M-S, GEMS.com.
[26:50.890 --> 26:54.510] [SPEAKER_11]: And on Facebook, their DJs go live, and you can watch them.
[26:54.790 --> 26:56.950] [SPEAKER_11]: And GEMS is actually interesting as an aside.
[26:56.950 --> 26:59.050] [SPEAKER_11]: It's almost more like a college radio station.
[26:59.230 --> 27:05.210] [SPEAKER_11]: It's much more kind of has a more relaxed vibe, but it's definitely unlicensed.
[27:05.590 --> 27:19.610] [SPEAKER_16]: You know, it's amazing because, Bernie, I don't know if you remember a couple of years ago, we were trying to track down a pirate station in Queens that was stepping on my other radio station's frequency of 90.1, which doesn't really reach Queens, but sometimes it can.
[27:19.610 --> 27:23.210] [SPEAKER_16]: And it's nice if it's able to without another station interfering.
[27:23.430 --> 27:28.690] [SPEAKER_16]: It was a Spanish station that we found, and we tracked it down, I believe, to a church in Corona.
[27:29.850 --> 27:30.370] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[27:30.470 --> 27:31.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Corona Queens.
[27:31.350 --> 27:39.630] [SPEAKER_01]: We drove around with some special equipment, and we drove around, and I was in the backseat I was a backseat driver telling you where to drive, and I had some radio equipment in the back of the car.
[27:39.830 --> 27:41.130] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, here it is!
[27:41.230 --> 27:42.490] [SPEAKER_01]: And we looked up, there's the antenna.
[27:43.590 --> 27:47.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Mike and I, we went up the steps and knocked on some doors.
[27:48.290 --> 27:56.810] [SPEAKER_01]: I had my 2600 hoodie on, which Mike was afraid that somebody would think would look like some Federales uniform or something.
[27:57.210 --> 27:59.050] [SPEAKER_01]: But they were having a live service downstairs.
[27:59.050 --> 28:00.610] [SPEAKER_01]: It was being broadcast on the air.
[28:00.690 --> 28:10.690] [SPEAKER_01]: But I talked to one of the people that met you at the door, and I said, I need to speak to the pastor, and he said, he's busy right now, but here's his number.
[28:10.770 --> 28:14.730] [SPEAKER_01]: So I called him, like, a couple days later, and we had a good conversation.
[28:14.730 --> 28:20.650] [SPEAKER_01]: I just explained to him that he was interfering with WUSB, and would he mind moving?
[28:20.750 --> 28:25.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Because interference is one of the things that attracts the FCC when there's interference to license stations.
[28:26.110 --> 28:28.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was very nice, and he just moved frequencies.
[28:28.890 --> 28:30.730] [SPEAKER_01]: It was wonderful that everybody was happy.
[28:31.030 --> 28:37.750] [SPEAKER_16]: Of course, somebody else took the frequency right after they moved, but you can't just leave an empty frequency around, apparently.
[28:37.970 --> 28:43.690] [SPEAKER_16]: But what I was amazed by when we did that was seeing how low the transmitter actually was.
[28:43.730 --> 28:47.230] [SPEAKER_16]: I think it was only on the second floor, maybe on the roof of a two-story building.
[28:48.050 --> 28:48.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[28:48.390 --> 28:53.950] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a Comet 95SL 5-8th wave ground plane antenna for anybody who cares.
[28:53.950 --> 28:56.630] [SPEAKER_16]: Call in God's name, do you know what kind of antenna it was just by looking at it?
[28:57.130 --> 29:00.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it was the most popular pirate FM.
[29:00.470 --> 29:06.670] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a commercial-grade antenna that, well, it's really hobbyist-grade, but it's commercially sold, but it's perfect for FM.
[29:06.670 --> 29:09.310] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we used at Radio Mutiny in West Philly back in the 90s.
[29:09.430 --> 29:14.730] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a very good antenna, and I would be... I was thinking I was talking to David about this, or maybe it was Matt Blaze.
[29:14.730 --> 29:24.210] [SPEAKER_01]: He and I met up with David a while back on this project, and we speculated that most of these pirates were probably using a Comet 95SL antenna.
[29:24.690 --> 29:33.130] [SPEAKER_16]: And with that height of just two stories off the ground, I was able to receive that station from Corona in Manhattan.
[29:33.130 --> 29:34.410] [SPEAKER_16]: It was able to get that far.
[29:34.730 --> 29:36.010] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, they really go far.
[29:36.150 --> 29:40.330] [SPEAKER_11]: And when I walk around Flappish, I've spotted a few, like just on the second floor.
[29:40.490 --> 29:50.810] [SPEAKER_11]: And actually, there's just been a report issued by the New York State Radio Broadcasters Association who are wanting to tamp down the pirates or take them off the air.
[29:50.890 --> 30:00.270] [SPEAKER_11]: And they, for the fourth year in a row, have done a survey in like four different locations in the Bronx, in Patterson, New Jersey, in Newark, and in Brooklyn.
[30:00.850 --> 30:02.650] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's funny.
[30:02.910 --> 30:08.910] [SPEAKER_11]: Someone was just telling me about this the other day, and lo and behold, this was released, I think, for the first time.
[30:08.930 --> 30:10.290] [SPEAKER_11]: I think the previous three weren't.
[30:10.390 --> 30:22.930] [SPEAKER_11]: If you look at Radio Inc., the magazine, they have a link to the 100-page PDF, and they have shots of antennas that they discovered on basically a DF pirate.
[30:22.930 --> 30:32.070] [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel, I just want to mention to our listeners, if anybody emails us at oth@2600.com, I can send them a link to this New York State Broadcasters report.
[30:32.310 --> 30:33.990] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a 100-page PDF, as David said.
[30:34.170 --> 30:37.550] [SPEAKER_01]: It's full of great pictures of these pirate radio antennas.
[30:37.670 --> 30:42.690] [SPEAKER_01]: One of them, the one in East Orange, New Jersey, is right next door to East Orange Police Station.
[30:43.210 --> 30:43.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[30:43.370 --> 30:44.410] [SPEAKER_01]: There's some really great pictures.
[30:44.750 --> 30:48.670] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's some really good comments, too, from the engineer who crafted the study.
[30:48.670 --> 30:52.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are kind of bogus, like the RS energy poses a public threat.
[30:52.970 --> 30:54.290] [SPEAKER_01]: And, I mean, that's nonsense.
[30:54.610 --> 30:56.350] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting.
[30:56.530 --> 30:59.290] [SPEAKER_11]: It's written with a slant, sort of protecting the interests of broadcasters.
[30:59.410 --> 31:05.450] [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, there are some things that, no doubt, have relevance, and other things that they're just kind of trying to make the case.
[31:06.410 --> 31:13.910] [SPEAKER_11]: But what they've discovered is that they're increasing, and that the FCC really hasn't done or can't do much to keep them off the air.
[31:14.610 --> 31:23.650] [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and by making it an issue and entangling more and more operators as sort of like casting a wide net, then they can say, see, look at what we're doing.
[31:24.270 --> 31:27.030] [SPEAKER_14]: We're policing this a little bit better, and look what we found.
[31:27.230 --> 31:27.650] [SPEAKER_14]: And, yeah.
[31:28.190 --> 31:33.670] [SPEAKER_11]: I just don't think it's going to have much impact on the FTC because they just don't have the funds.
[31:33.790 --> 31:34.610] [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have...
[31:34.610 --> 31:36.130] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think they've given up.
[31:36.130 --> 31:42.030] [SPEAKER_11]: I think short of like a quasi-military effort, there's no way to take 38 stations off the air.
[31:42.030 --> 31:50.830] [SPEAKER_11]: This survey estimated that they heard 75 from these four locations, and they said there are probably 100, and I think there are probably more.
[31:50.990 --> 31:59.070] [SPEAKER_16]: You know, without giving specifics, I've known of stations that have operated in the commercial ban 24-7 for years without being harassed.
[31:59.090 --> 32:06.690] [SPEAKER_16]: And I think that just speaks to the lack of interference that these stations actually are presenting to commercial broadcasters.
[32:06.710 --> 32:09.990] [SPEAKER_16]: Because if they were actually interfering, then people would complain.
[32:09.990 --> 32:12.550] [SPEAKER_16]: But without complaints, the FCC won't do anything.
[32:12.730 --> 32:14.210] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I hear it both ways.
[32:14.370 --> 32:15.910] [SPEAKER_11]: I've been talking to...
[32:15.910 --> 32:18.770] [SPEAKER_11]: I talked to Ken Friedman, a station manager of WFMU.
[32:18.850 --> 32:25.890] [SPEAKER_11]: He says he's made complaints, and they've never been acted on by the FCC because their staff is so small.
[32:32.290 --> 32:36.670] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you have another clip following this, the one we just played.
[32:36.870 --> 32:38.270] [SPEAKER_16]: So you want to tell us something about this?
[32:38.290 --> 32:38.510] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[32:38.650 --> 32:46.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, the first one was a ska gospel in which they were talking, at least theoretically, to the Orthodox community in Crown Heights.
[32:46.390 --> 32:55.030] [SPEAKER_11]: Here's a station that I heard a few months ago, and it was a 91.9, which is usually empty during the day.
[32:55.190 --> 32:59.290] [SPEAKER_11]: And I was hearing a rebroadcast of WCBS for weeks.
[32:59.530 --> 33:01.090] [SPEAKER_11]: I couldn't figure out who this was.
[33:01.250 --> 33:04.510] [SPEAKER_11]: When they weren't on the air, they had their carrier on with a wine.
[33:04.690 --> 33:07.870] [SPEAKER_11]: And finally, it gave way to this station.
[33:07.870 --> 33:12.110] [SPEAKER_17]: Either way, we all had something happy about this.
[33:12.110 --> 33:12.610] [SPEAKER_17]: It was a problem with respect.
[33:12.610 --> 33:13.070] [SPEAKER_17]: He has a story to me about it.
[33:13.110 --> 33:19.150] [SPEAKER_17]: He thousand in a room, with it or something that dreams to do with vortex, there is no problem with leeway.
[33:19.470 --> 33:21.870] [SPEAKER_17]: TheLAN David liver, saying hash, that not even on fire.
[33:22.150 --> 33:24.330] [SPEAKER_17]: That even happened to be in the issue of phrase.
[33:24.590 --> 33:29.390] [SPEAKER_17]: And there are people whoei consideration, and come photos and cannot pig Drugs on the plate.
[33:29.690 --> 33:34.730] [SPEAKER_17]: Heий shouldn't stand a mole on earth like this.
[33:34.730 --> 33:39.750] [SPEAKER_18]: Netsch Israel, in the world no ishacar, ba'נים yeshubu li'gi v'olam.
[33:40.230 --> 33:44.850] [SPEAKER_18]: Rewach yamod, memcumum echere, no ken utsum ha'ginam.
[33:45.350 --> 33:49.510] [SPEAKER_18]: Netsch Israel, in the world no ishacar, ba'נים yeshubu li'gi v'olam.
[33:50.510 --> 33:55.010] [SPEAKER_18]: Rewach yamod, memcumum echere, no ken utsum ha'ginam.
[33:55.410 --> 34:00.530] [SPEAKER_17]: Pizzukot, וגם בחסד, הארצי שלנו, DEM שנשבח כמה עם בשנים שכבר נדפנו.
[34:00.530 --> 34:01.970] [SPEAKER_17]: רו נעבֹת לרל hypotheses.
[34:02.190 --> 34:08.250] [SPEAKER_17]: וטנדפנו כ Chemical primerות שמלוו נעדטן.
[34:08.250 --> 34:08.670] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[34:09.250 --> 34:10.970] [SPEAKER_16]: So what do we have, Hebrew rep?
[34:11.110 --> 34:13.090] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a Hebrew dancehall reggae, essentially.
[34:13.790 --> 34:17.610] [SPEAKER_16]: I would subscribe to a package of pirate stations.
[34:17.610 --> 34:27.930] [SPEAKER_16]: If some enterprising provider out there wants to provide, like, you know, the Pirate FM Top 100, I would subscribe to that just to hear the variety of music that you're showing.
[34:27.930 --> 34:28.870] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it was fascinating.
[34:29.130 --> 34:30.710] [SPEAKER_11]: And they came on the air.
[34:30.850 --> 34:32.430] [SPEAKER_11]: They were on the air for a few weeks.
[34:32.570 --> 34:34.190] [SPEAKER_11]: And they've been gone ever since.
[34:35.210 --> 34:37.650] [SPEAKER_11]: Finally, they had some Hebrew sermons.
[34:37.750 --> 34:38.810] [SPEAKER_11]: And they played...
[34:38.810 --> 34:41.010] [SPEAKER_11]: I have a version of Let It Be in Hebrew.
[34:41.210 --> 34:45.490] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it's just a very interesting mix geared to the Orthodox jewish community.
[34:45.570 --> 34:50.750] [SPEAKER_16]: See, the thing is, if you listen to regular FM radio stations, you don't hear that kind of diversity.
[34:50.750 --> 34:52.190] [SPEAKER_16]: You just hear the same things.
[34:52.590 --> 34:53.990] [SPEAKER_16]: And people want diversity.
[34:53.990 --> 34:56.350] [SPEAKER_16]: So that's why there's a need for pirate stations.
[34:56.350 --> 35:09.530] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I remembered my thought from earlier, where my mind sort of went blank, is it's not that they're not interfering, but some of the pirates, I think, have some strategy that a lot of the main frequencies are on rimshot stations.
[35:09.670 --> 35:16.710] [SPEAKER_11]: So they don't jump on top of WNYC, but they'll be on WALK's frequency, which is on Long Island.
[35:16.890 --> 35:19.830] [SPEAKER_11]: So probably they're not getting a lot of complaints.
[35:20.050 --> 35:26.510] [SPEAKER_11]: And so a lot of them, I think, sort of hide on those regional frequencies on the Jersey Shore, on Long Island.
[35:27.210 --> 35:29.350] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, it depends where they actually are.
[35:29.450 --> 35:35.270] [SPEAKER_16]: Because if they did that on Long Island, where WALK is a very powerful station, they probably would get complaints.
[35:35.410 --> 35:38.750] [SPEAKER_16]: But if they're doing that in Queens, no one's going to really notice.
[35:38.910 --> 35:46.930] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but I know when I contacted Steve Schultes, the chief technology officer at WNYC, he was like, yes, I want to talk to you about this.
[35:47.830 --> 35:50.790] [SPEAKER_11]: They have had a problem, and their listeners do complain.
[35:51.150 --> 35:55.350] [SPEAKER_11]: But again, I think it comes down to enforcement doesn't have the resources.
[35:55.590 --> 36:04.450] [SPEAKER_11]: And if you check this great site by John Anderson's diymedia.net, he has a letter that Tom Wheeler, the FCC commissioner, wrote last year.
[36:04.590 --> 36:11.870] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's sort of like, it was in response to all the reps, political reps in New York, writing a letter to the FCC.
[36:12.010 --> 36:14.230] [SPEAKER_11]: And he was like, not much we can do.
[36:14.230 --> 36:26.610] [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and it's like, in light of that level of enforcement, it's really, it's a tough sell as far as dissuading people, given the amount of power and the impact that it has on the communities that are listening.
[36:26.730 --> 36:28.150] [SPEAKER_14]: And it's reasonably inexpensive.
[36:28.830 --> 36:32.270] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, and if they get busted, they often get back on the air.
[36:32.650 --> 36:40.630] [SPEAKER_11]: Another jewish station, and there are many more than just jews, there are more Caribbean stations, but there are about four or five Orthodox Jewish stations where I am.
[36:40.630 --> 36:47.690] [SPEAKER_11]: And they were on WALK's frequency, and they were busted about two years ago.
[36:47.870 --> 36:48.990] [SPEAKER_16]: It's 97.5.
[36:48.990 --> 36:50.330] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, and now they're on 95.1.
[36:50.470 --> 36:53.930] [SPEAKER_11]: And sometimes they still air their all-IDs from 97.5.
[36:54.110 --> 37:02.670] [SPEAKER_11]: And when they were busted, here's something I've observed, that the communities that these stations are targeted to, the community, and why should they?
[37:02.670 --> 37:04.570] [SPEAKER_11]: They don't really know that they're illegal stations.
[37:04.790 --> 37:06.930] [SPEAKER_11]: They just think that this is our station.
[37:07.170 --> 37:08.870] [SPEAKER_11]: So there was a whole hue and cry.
[37:08.870 --> 37:11.870] [SPEAKER_11]: Why is J-Root Radio off 97.5?
[37:12.030 --> 37:18.030] [SPEAKER_14]: That sense of ownership that comes with that impact, the fact that it does serve them.
[37:18.070 --> 37:19.550] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I mean, I've seen they have websites sometimes.
[37:19.870 --> 37:21.470] [SPEAKER_16]: Some of them even sell advertising.
[37:21.550 --> 37:22.830] [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know how they do that.
[37:22.930 --> 37:23.190] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[37:23.330 --> 37:24.470] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, you're showing them all the websites.
[37:24.750 --> 37:27.870] [SPEAKER_14]: Ads for different restaurants or things like that.
[37:28.130 --> 37:29.470] [SPEAKER_14]: We've heard a lot of that kind of stuff.
[37:29.550 --> 37:30.470] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, a lot of ad blocks.
[37:30.670 --> 37:37.250] [SPEAKER_11]: At my talk, I'm going to have this big chart I've compiled, and probably three quarters of the station have or had websites.
[37:37.250 --> 37:46.950] [SPEAKER_16]: But what you say about the cost factor really resonates because even when you're dealing with completely legal entities, I know this from experience with the other radio station I work with, WUSB.
[37:47.950 --> 37:59.750] [SPEAKER_16]: We have a perfectly legal signal that is supposed to reach a particular area, but yet there's a 100-watt station in Connecticut that completely obliterates the signal on the north shore of Long Island.
[38:00.330 --> 38:03.410] [SPEAKER_16]: And that's a legal station too, but it's not supposed to be going that far.
[38:03.570 --> 38:06.690] [SPEAKER_16]: But without a lot of money to pursue it, there's nothing you can do.
[38:06.770 --> 38:08.830] [SPEAKER_16]: And we've been told that so many times, powerless.
[38:09.110 --> 38:13.290] [SPEAKER_16]: And it's true both in the pirate world and outside the pirate world.
[38:13.310 --> 38:13.430] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[38:13.610 --> 38:15.970] [SPEAKER_11]: I think I have a sample that can speak to this.
[38:16.070 --> 38:24.490] [SPEAKER_11]: I was talking about 91.7 earlier, and late in the afternoon, you can hear a station from West Orange, New Jersey called La Main Street.
[38:24.630 --> 38:25.830] [SPEAKER_11]: They sign on about three or four.
[38:26.190 --> 38:29.430] [SPEAKER_11]: It's an Andean station for the Ecuadorian community, Andean music.
[38:30.890 --> 38:38.690] [SPEAKER_11]: And this, I think, also underscores why the pirates are on the air because I've never heard that on any of the brokered stations that you can buy time.
[38:39.310 --> 38:42.650] [SPEAKER_11]: So this is an example of La Main Street.
[38:42.790 --> 38:46.170] [SPEAKER_11]: They're on the air, and then a local Caribbean station comes on.
[38:46.310 --> 38:47.170] [SPEAKER_11]: It's on number seven.
[38:47.370 --> 38:53.410] [SPEAKER_16]: You know, it'd be great just to have a guide that people can easily reference, but if you publish a guide like that, then it's also easier to crack down on them.
[38:53.590 --> 38:55.670] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you know, they're on the air.
[38:55.790 --> 38:57.310] [SPEAKER_11]: They're giving out their numbers and their websites.
[38:57.310 --> 39:01.390] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to crack down, but I think this is a really interesting cultural phenomenon.
[39:01.770 --> 39:10.710] [SPEAKER_11]: And I am working on funding an online map, which you can not see where they're located because I don't know, but you can see the coverage areas.
[39:10.870 --> 39:11.630] [SPEAKER_11]: You can click.
[39:11.770 --> 39:13.210] [SPEAKER_11]: You can hear links and interviews.
[39:13.210 --> 39:16.770] [SPEAKER_11]: You can hear people on both sides of the unlicensed license divide.
[39:17.450 --> 39:19.310] [SPEAKER_11]: But, right, it is kind of touchy.
[39:19.890 --> 39:20.870] [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, did you have something?
[39:21.710 --> 39:26.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just wanted to say you were talking about how inexpensive the cost of entry has plummeted.
[39:27.310 --> 39:35.570] [SPEAKER_01]: to set up an illegal FM broadcast station now that you could go on eBay and just search for FM broadcast transmitter.
[39:35.730 --> 39:43.370] [SPEAKER_01]: You can find tons of them for like 50 bucks for like a 10, 10, 15 watt station which will broadcast for several miles.
[39:43.610 --> 39:48.790] [SPEAKER_01]: And that Comet 95 SL antenna is like about 100, less than $100.
[39:49.110 --> 39:56.570] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically for under $200, for about $200 some dollars, if you already have studio gear, you have the transmitter and the feed line and the antenna.
[39:56.830 --> 40:04.710] [SPEAKER_01]: This is chump change and people are doing it now because it's so inexpensive and I don't see how the FCC can possibly stop it.
[40:04.830 --> 40:07.350] [SPEAKER_16]: We're starting to sound like shop at home for pirate radio here.
[40:08.470 --> 40:11.330] [SPEAKER_16]: If you do this, please don't broadcast on 99.5.
[40:11.570 --> 40:16.330] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, actually, what happens if they do broadcast on a commercial, right smack on top of a commercial station?
[40:16.330 --> 40:18.610] [SPEAKER_16]: How much interference can they actually cause?
[40:18.630 --> 40:18.830] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, a lot.
[40:18.990 --> 40:37.170] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, WNYC, there was a station on 94.1 right next to it and there's a great Twitter list called BK Pirate Watch and the actress Martha Plippton found them and said, I'm trying to listen to WNYC, you know, to all things considered but I'm hearing, you know,
[40:37.350 --> 40:44.230] [SPEAKER_11]: reggae music and so she was informed that that 94.1 was a pirate and was interfering.
[40:44.390 --> 40:45.970] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, 94.1 has been gone for a while.
[40:46.150 --> 40:48.230] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, did she stick with the reggae or did she go back to all things considered?
[40:48.530 --> 40:49.130] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not sure.
[40:50.170 --> 40:52.290] [SPEAKER_11]: I might try to follow up with her on that.
[40:53.110 --> 41:01.630] [SPEAKER_11]: And I know and having spoken with Ken Friedman a few days ago, they're constantly plagued by a station on 90.9 Radio Independence.
[41:01.850 --> 41:02.170] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, really?
[41:02.430 --> 41:18.050] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, which is a Haitian station and to the degree, actually, I think there was another road march, another station in Newark was interfering with FMU's second station in Hudson County, New York.
[41:18.390 --> 41:18.990] [SPEAKER_16]: MFU, I believe.
[41:19.210 --> 41:19.470] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[41:20.270 --> 41:28.130] [SPEAKER_11]: So even though they were in Newark, they, and on 90.1, not 91.1, they were cutting into the edge of their frequency, of their coverage.
[41:28.770 --> 41:29.090] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[41:29.310 --> 41:30.030] [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know...
[41:30.030 --> 41:34.610] [SPEAKER_16]: It does affect, you know, the smaller stations and the non-commercial stations more than it does the commercial ones.
[41:34.750 --> 41:43.950] [SPEAKER_16]: So I would advise, if pirate radio people listen to me at all, that you take commercial frequencies, frequencies above 92.
[41:44.510 --> 41:46.410] [SPEAKER_16]: And, of course, we're above 92 as well.
[41:46.410 --> 41:50.350] [SPEAKER_16]: We're the exception, but, you know, a lot of stations there, they're a lot more powerful.
[41:50.730 --> 41:50.890] [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[41:50.890 --> 41:53.310] [SPEAKER_16]: And actually, there's a lot more space between them.
[41:53.590 --> 41:56.790] [SPEAKER_11]: There are a lot in the non-commercial band.
[41:56.970 --> 42:00.850] [SPEAKER_11]: Between 87.9 and 91.9, there are probably eight, you know, where I am.
[42:01.010 --> 42:05.310] [SPEAKER_11]: And, again, talking to Ken Friedman, and I'll excerpt some from his interview in my talk,
[42:08.910 --> 42:12.090] [SPEAKER_11]: they're operating as commercial stations on non-commercial band.
[42:12.230 --> 42:16.870] [SPEAKER_11]: And so that irritated him, you know, in addition to all the other problems that he's suffering.
[42:17.990 --> 42:26.330] [SPEAKER_11]: So you could play now, this is La Main Street in 91.7, and they're on the air until suddenly a Flatbush station comes on.
[42:26.390 --> 42:28.510] [SPEAKER_16]: So this is the Ecuadorian station This is the Ecuadorian.
[42:28.510 --> 42:29.110] [SPEAKER_16]: From Jersey.
[42:29.350 --> 42:29.570] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[42:30.390 --> 42:30.830] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[42:30.930 --> 42:33.030] [SPEAKER_16]: And we're going to hear another station come on?
[42:33.130 --> 42:34.370] [SPEAKER_11]: Sign on right on top of it.
[42:34.490 --> 42:35.410] [SPEAKER_11]: Another pirate station.
[42:35.590 --> 42:37.230] [SPEAKER_16]: At the same time or do they wait for them to sign off?
[42:37.290 --> 42:37.450] [SPEAKER_16]: No.
[42:37.670 --> 42:38.530] [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, so there's...
[42:38.530 --> 42:40.210] [SPEAKER_11]: And this happens a lot.
[42:40.650 --> 42:40.990] [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[42:41.070 --> 42:41.870] [SPEAKER_16]: Let's take a listen to this.
[42:42.230 --> 42:43.650] [SPEAKER_03]: Por favor, la canción de la vaca loca.
[42:44.030 --> 42:45.650] [SPEAKER_03]: Dice salud para la familia Meléndez.
[42:46.050 --> 42:48.410] [SPEAKER_03]: Y por favor, esa canción, póngamela, póngale.
[42:48.550 --> 42:49.090] [SPEAKER_03]: Saludos, gracias.
[42:49.690 --> 42:51.990] [SPEAKER_03]: Por favor, alegrarnos nuestros corazones.
[42:52.130 --> 42:54.870] [SPEAKER_03]: Qué lindo saber que la gente es enganchado de la promoción.
[42:55.010 --> 42:55.650] [SPEAKER_03]: Vamos, amigos.
[42:56.070 --> 42:56.470] [SPEAKER_03]: Túbele.
[42:56.870 --> 42:57.270] [SPEAKER_03]: Túbele.
[42:57.350 --> 42:58.670] [SPEAKER_03]: Y tú, a moverte.
[42:58.930 --> 42:59.630] [SPEAKER_03]: A moverte.
[42:59.910 --> 43:00.730] [SPEAKER_03]: Muevete eso.
[43:00.970 --> 43:01.370] [SPEAKER_03]: Muevete.
[43:01.690 --> 43:02.230] [SPEAKER_03]: Arriba, arriba.
[43:02.410 --> 43:03.330] [SPEAKER_03]: Llegó el jueves.
[43:03.530 --> 43:05.370] [SPEAKER_03]: Que jueves, maestro, jueves.
[43:05.470 --> 43:06.350] [SPEAKER_03]: Estamos en maces.
[43:06.750 --> 43:07.250] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, pero...
[43:07.250 --> 43:08.190] [SPEAKER_03]: Está el martes.
[43:08.190 --> 43:09.170] [SPEAKER_03]: Pero huele, huele.
[43:09.290 --> 43:10.990] [SPEAKER_03]: No, como que huele ya jueves.
[43:11.210 --> 43:13.010] [SPEAKER_03]: Con esa alegría que pone el DJ.
[43:13.610 --> 43:14.450] [SPEAKER_03]: Carlitos San...
[43:33.050 --> 43:35.030] [SPEAKER_06]: 90.5, la señal es fe.
[43:46.550 --> 43:49.250] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow, so they completely obliterated them, didn't they?
[43:49.590 --> 43:58.690] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, and so the West Orange Station was, I don't know, probably about 16 miles from me, but this was a station within a mile or two mile radius.
[43:58.910 --> 43:59.170] [SPEAKER_16]: It's exciting.
[43:59.350 --> 44:08.430] [SPEAKER_16]: It reminds me, you mentioned the shortwave, of listening, you know, hearing a station going off the air, then another signal, you hear the interval signals, and different language perhaps.
[44:09.290 --> 44:11.710] [SPEAKER_16]: You know, shortwave, it's not that exciting anymore, is it?
[44:11.710 --> 44:12.430] [SPEAKER_11]: It's really not.
[44:12.670 --> 44:20.970] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is, it's kind of interesting, and I don't know really many, you know, radio hobbyists who, like, love to take lists of stations.
[44:22.650 --> 44:27.930] [SPEAKER_11]: Looking at these scenes, I sort of made an effort in that direction to try to codify what's out there.
[44:28.430 --> 44:29.770] [SPEAKER_11]: And that happens a lot.
[44:29.890 --> 44:37.470] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, there are some stations that have really good tech and a really good sound, but even the best sounding station, you could tell they don't have or band processing.
[44:37.470 --> 44:40.090] [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have that, like, extra slick part.
[44:40.270 --> 44:47.310] [SPEAKER_11]: But a lot of them, even though they're interesting and they're serving an underserved community, they have very poor tech.
[44:47.530 --> 44:50.190] [SPEAKER_11]: There are stations that skip for hours.
[44:50.330 --> 44:51.610] [SPEAKER_11]: I can play one at some point.
[44:52.110 --> 44:52.550] [SPEAKER_11]: You skip?
[44:52.630 --> 44:53.670] [SPEAKER_16]: Wait a minute, a CD skipping?
[44:53.850 --> 44:55.130] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you want to go to number nine?
[44:55.250 --> 44:55.650] [SPEAKER_11]: Number nine?
[44:55.770 --> 44:56.930] [SPEAKER_16]: Sure, I got to hear this.
[44:57.950 --> 44:59.170] [SPEAKER_16]: So, which station is this?
[44:59.170 --> 45:00.850] [SPEAKER_11]: This is Radio Liberté.
[45:01.050 --> 45:02.710] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a Haitian station on 89.7.
[45:02.890 --> 45:15.010] [SPEAKER_11]: It's crammed right between 89.5 WSOU, a college station and WKCR 89.9 and it's interfering with their HD characters as well as the main station.
[45:15.190 --> 45:16.490] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, and we're going to hear a skip.
[45:16.850 --> 45:17.430] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[46:01.950 --> 46:03.250] [SPEAKER_07]: for the youth.
[46:05.530 --> 46:09.090] [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you know, it's a mix between Laurie Anderson and Panda Bear, I think.
[46:10.250 --> 46:11.530] [SPEAKER_16]: I would listen to that.
[46:11.530 --> 46:14.790] [SPEAKER_16]: In fact, you know, I hate to say it, but we've skipped records longer than that.
[46:15.370 --> 46:20.450] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, when I found this, it went on for about 20 minutes before it returned to the regular programming.
[46:20.650 --> 46:29.250] [SPEAKER_11]: But in the early years when I wasn't paying super close attention, I had a small child, you know, but often you would hear this.
[46:29.290 --> 46:31.070] [SPEAKER_11]: It was not uncommon to hear a skipping station.
[46:31.510 --> 46:33.190] [SPEAKER_16]: It wasn't uncommon in the past either.
[46:33.210 --> 46:36.870] [SPEAKER_16]: If you listen to radio in the 70s and 80s, you heard mistakes.
[46:36.870 --> 46:38.450] [SPEAKER_16]: You heard sloppiness.
[46:38.730 --> 46:42.950] [SPEAKER_16]: And today, there's too much emphasis on being polished and sounding like everybody else.
[46:43.090 --> 46:45.470] [SPEAKER_16]: So it's good to hear the human aspect of it.
[46:45.730 --> 46:47.010] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that is really there.
[46:47.170 --> 46:51.950] [SPEAKER_11]: And if you want to hear another cut, this is the same station.
[46:53.270 --> 46:58.170] [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, no, it's a different station, but another Haitian station called La Valle de Poupla.
[46:58.310 --> 47:02.990] [SPEAKER_11]: This was the Caribbean station that jumped on the Ecuadorian station.
[47:03.090 --> 47:03.650] [SPEAKER_11]: Is this number 10?
[47:03.650 --> 47:07.710] [SPEAKER_11]: This is number 8.
[47:08.070 --> 47:09.550] [SPEAKER_11]: It's sort of a sign-on.
[47:09.730 --> 47:11.990] [SPEAKER_11]: It's very reminiscent of shortwave radio.
[47:12.490 --> 47:13.790] [SPEAKER_11]: Interval signal sign-on.
[47:14.150 --> 47:14.510] [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, really?
[47:14.710 --> 47:14.890] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[47:15.110 --> 47:15.930] [SPEAKER_16]: I love interval signals.
[47:16.530 --> 47:18.950] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, so this is the Haitian station, you say?
[47:19.030 --> 47:20.710] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, and this went on for about 20 minutes.
[47:20.710 --> 47:22.150] [SPEAKER_11]: This is just 5 seconds of it.
[47:22.290 --> 47:22.470] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[47:23.610 --> 47:23.930] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[47:23.930 --> 47:26.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Vous écoutez la voix du peuple.
[47:29.710 --> 47:32.930] [SPEAKER_12]: Vous écoutez la voix du peuple.
[47:34.670 --> 47:39.070] [SPEAKER_12]: Vous écoutez la voix du peuple.
[47:41.450 --> 47:45.150] [SPEAKER_12]: Vous écoutez la voix du peuple.
[47:47.410 --> 47:51.030] [SPEAKER_02]: Vous écoutez la voix du...
[47:51.030 --> 48:02.510] [SPEAKER_02]: It is not the case.
[48:03.330 --> 48:03.750] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow,
[48:07.730 --> 48:09.010] [SPEAKER_16]: that's great.
[48:10.190 --> 48:12.790] [SPEAKER_16]: I've never heard any interval signal that had a voice like that.
[48:14.490 --> 48:16.190] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it doesn't sound digitized.
[48:16.410 --> 48:17.950] [SPEAKER_11]: And then I guess they just looped it.
[48:17.950 --> 48:20.450] [SPEAKER_11]: And I don't... they don't usually sign on this way.
[48:20.530 --> 48:23.150] [SPEAKER_11]: I've never heard it on that station's frequency again.
[48:23.350 --> 48:29.370] [SPEAKER_11]: And now this station, Le Va Du Peuple, they may be under another name because I've heard other IDs.
[48:29.550 --> 48:37.170] [SPEAKER_11]: But it's often... I think it's possible that some of these stations are brokering time to people who run streams.
[48:37.370 --> 48:39.150] [SPEAKER_11]: It's just... it's hard to know.
[48:39.250 --> 48:40.770] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm trying to learn more about the model.
[48:40.770 --> 48:43.970] [SPEAKER_13]: I'm just blown away by your collection that you've got.
[48:44.170 --> 48:47.970] [SPEAKER_13]: And these are real... these happenings are just sort of mayflies.
[48:48.170 --> 48:51.570] [SPEAKER_13]: They would happen to never be heard from again if they were heard at all in the first place.
[48:51.790 --> 48:53.270] [SPEAKER_13]: And here you are collecting them.
[48:53.370 --> 48:56.610] [SPEAKER_13]: I know archivists like our friend Jason Scott would go nuts over this kind of thing.
[48:56.890 --> 49:01.770] [SPEAKER_13]: Because this is something that is going on just subtly behind the scenes for most people.
[49:02.290 --> 49:06.610] [SPEAKER_13]: And what led you to start recording this and gathering your data?
[49:06.610 --> 49:12.250] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I do audio archiving in the shortwave realm.
[49:12.650 --> 49:17.690] [SPEAKER_11]: I've done pieces using things from different archives, sometimes my own, sometimes other.
[49:17.850 --> 49:27.390] [SPEAKER_11]: I have a piece I did for NPR a long time ago on the number stations, the espionage-related stations, and similar projects.
[49:28.110 --> 49:34.190] [SPEAKER_11]: So I just decided when I had a little extra time that I was going to try to record this scene.
[49:34.190 --> 49:36.590] [SPEAKER_11]: When I first heard it, it seemed very monolithic to me.
[49:36.610 --> 49:39.790] [SPEAKER_11]: It was a lot of soca, you know, a lot of reggae.
[49:39.990 --> 49:42.950] [SPEAKER_11]: But the more I listen, you start to hear anomalies.
[49:44.150 --> 49:46.910] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if you have time for any more samples, but...
[49:46.910 --> 49:47.030] [SPEAKER_11]: Sure.
[49:47.630 --> 49:48.630] [SPEAKER_16]: I could do this all night.
[49:48.710 --> 49:49.130] [SPEAKER_16]: This is awesome.
[49:49.130 --> 49:57.950] [SPEAKER_11]: On 91... another... 91.7, which usually has La Vada Puebla, the Haitian station, locally, and that Ecuadorian station, La Main Street.
[49:58.390 --> 50:06.270] [SPEAKER_11]: One day, I tuned in, and I heard number six, which I call Mystery Station.
[50:08.690 --> 50:10.670] [SPEAKER_11]: And I heard it one time.
[50:11.950 --> 50:12.550] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[50:12.730 --> 50:14.070] [SPEAKER_16]: So this is from where again?
[50:14.070 --> 50:16.050] [SPEAKER_11]: This is... it's on 91.7.
[50:16.190 --> 50:18.670] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's somewhere in Flatbush, Midwood, Brooklyn.
[50:19.550 --> 50:21.250] [SPEAKER_11]: It came... I heard it once.
[50:21.450 --> 50:22.570] [SPEAKER_11]: I never heard it again.
[50:22.870 --> 50:25.630] [SPEAKER_11]: It seems to be an Uzbeki or a Turkish broadcast.
[50:26.090 --> 50:26.530] [SPEAKER_15]: Fascinating.
[50:26.730 --> 50:27.730] [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, let's take a listen to this.
[50:27.730 --> 50:28.890] [SPEAKER_15]: In
[50:32.810 --> 50:32.890] The Bazaar.
[50:34.330 --> 50:34.870] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[50:36.470 --> 50:36.650] [SPEAKER_09]: In The Bazaar.
[50:37.170 --> 50:39.910] [SPEAKER_09]: Birlik etmem.
[50:40.150 --> 50:42.210] [SPEAKER_09]: Sil dersin silerim.
[50:42.550 --> 50:45.230] [SPEAKER_09]: Bireyim yoksa benimle.
[50:45.490 --> 50:46.150] [SPEAKER_09]: Kaşa.
[50:47.490 --> 50:48.390] [SPEAKER_08]: Tutku Efendim.
[50:48.750 --> 50:50.350] [SPEAKER_08]: Arabesk'in en iyisi.
[50:54.670 --> 50:57.170] [SPEAKER_05]: Türkiye'nin en damar radyosu.
[50:57.410 --> 50:58.630] [SPEAKER_05]: Tutku Efendim.
[51:03.390 --> 51:05.650] [SPEAKER_00]: Bu frekansı çok seveceksin.
[51:11.440 --> 51:13.040] [SPEAKER_14]: So, I had a question.
[51:13.260 --> 51:18.300] [SPEAKER_14]: Have you noticed any subterfuge or ways they try to mask where they are?
[51:18.460 --> 51:21.360] [SPEAKER_14]: In other words, like you mentioned brokering a little bit.
[51:21.480 --> 51:26.160] [SPEAKER_14]: Do the stations ever say they're one thing and then they're really in another place?
[51:26.160 --> 51:30.300] [SPEAKER_14]: They try to maybe make it sound like they're much further away or in another part of the country?
[51:30.300 --> 51:32.080] [SPEAKER_16]: It's a good tactic if they're not doing that.
[51:32.280 --> 51:37.460] [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't noticed that, but what you do hear a lot is feeds from stations in the Caribbean.
[51:37.620 --> 51:39.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Sometimes they'll name check other cities.
[51:40.260 --> 51:45.500] [SPEAKER_11]: This kind of scene is also very big in Boston and Miami in the same way.
[51:45.600 --> 51:52.060] [SPEAKER_11]: But I don't know that... I think it's already so murky and chaotic that they don't really need to do that.
[51:52.100 --> 51:55.740] [SPEAKER_11]: But I think they're always sort of moving their locations around physically.
[51:55.740 --> 51:56.720] [SPEAKER_16]: David, let me ask you this.
[51:56.820 --> 52:01.140] [SPEAKER_16]: Is this something that's particularly unique to New York or does this happen all over the country?
[52:02.160 --> 52:06.720] [SPEAKER_11]: It seems to be big in New York, Boston, and Miami.
[52:07.500 --> 52:09.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Miami has a lot of Haitian stations in particular.
[52:10.300 --> 52:15.260] [SPEAKER_11]: I was in Boston in the fall and a casual tune, I counted about 15 on an evening.
[52:15.420 --> 52:17.960] [SPEAKER_16]: What is it about Haitian stations that make them so prevalent?
[52:17.960 --> 52:20.020] [SPEAKER_11]: That's an interesting question.
[52:20.360 --> 52:28.860] [SPEAKER_11]: I think radio is very prime in a lot of Caribbean cultures, and so it's sort of very important to be on the air.
[52:29.460 --> 52:37.180] [SPEAKER_11]: The literacy rate is somewhat low in Haiti, so hearing news on the radio is very ingrained in the culture.
[52:37.380 --> 52:39.600] [SPEAKER_11]: So I think that's part of it.
[52:39.860 --> 52:40.320] [SPEAKER_16]: Interesting.
[52:41.060 --> 52:41.600] [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[52:42.320 --> 52:44.480] [SPEAKER_16]: Bernie, any final questions from you?
[52:45.320 --> 52:51.400] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is going to be an amazing talk at the 11th Hope, July 22nd.
[52:51.540 --> 52:52.620] [SPEAKER_01]: July 22nd, right?
[52:52.760 --> 52:52.940] [SPEAKER_01]: This Friday?
[52:52.940 --> 52:55.920] [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, this talk is scheduled for 7 p.m.
[52:55.920 --> 52:56.760] [SPEAKER_16]: in the Friedman Room.
[52:56.780 --> 52:59.560] [SPEAKER_16]: It's called Tuning In to New York City's Pirates of the Air.
[53:00.240 --> 53:04.240] [SPEAKER_16]: And David will be playing some excerpts and talking about all this.
[53:04.360 --> 53:05.420] [SPEAKER_16]: It's really fascinating.
[53:05.420 --> 53:11.520] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to also mention, David has an amazing website called shortwaveology.net.
[53:11.660 --> 53:21.160] [SPEAKER_01]: He's too modest to plug his own website on the air here, but I highly recommend shortwaveology.net.
[53:21.300 --> 53:25.140] [SPEAKER_01]: And I met David years ago, even though we lived in the same place at one time.
[53:25.500 --> 53:28.480] [SPEAKER_01]: I met him at the annual SWL Fest.
[53:28.480 --> 53:34.760] [SPEAKER_01]: If you check out SWL Fest.com, it's where I've met a lot of amazing radio people.
[53:34.840 --> 53:35.900] [SPEAKER_01]: It's outside of Philadelphia.
[53:36.220 --> 53:37.280] [SPEAKER_01]: I've met David.
[53:37.460 --> 53:43.280] [SPEAKER_01]: I met Mark Fahey, who gave a talk about North Korea at the most recent HUB conference.
[53:43.420 --> 53:48.100] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're doing an amazing talk about monitoring radio and television from around the world this year.
[53:48.600 --> 53:51.020] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of great content worth coming to hope for.
[53:51.240 --> 53:52.260] [SPEAKER_01]: So don't miss it.
[53:52.740 --> 53:54.380] [SPEAKER_16]: Can we go out with one more?
[53:54.500 --> 53:55.440] [SPEAKER_16]: Just give me a number and more.
[53:55.620 --> 53:55.720] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[53:55.820 --> 54:03.020] [SPEAKER_11]: So first I'll just say, thanks to Ed for the promotion, that shortwaveology.net has a lot of shortwave-related material.
[54:03.020 --> 54:14.500] [SPEAKER_11]: I have a soundcloud.com slash shortwaveology site that has July 4th band scan that I did, two-and-a-half-hour band scan of the pirates, and a lot of things that people can dive into.
[54:14.500 --> 54:19.480] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's go out on... Some of these stations have really great IDs.
[54:19.480 --> 54:20.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Go to number five.
[54:20.840 --> 54:22.440] [SPEAKER_11]: This is the station, Triple Nine.
[54:22.440 --> 54:39.780] [SPEAKER_09]: הא�, three, two, three, two, three, four, six, six...
[54:39.780 --> 54:41.360] [SPEAKER_12]: , three,
[54:44.400 --> 54:48.260] [SPEAKER_12]: two, three, four...
[54:49.120 --> 54:49.500] [SPEAKER_05]: algorithm creeps out.
[54:49.500 --> 54:52.340] [SPEAKER_09]: Sweet Soaka,zi.
[54:52.340 --> 54:52.380] .
[54:53.340 --> 54:54.640] [SPEAKER_05]: Blazing the hits and more.
[54:55.880 --> 54:57.080] [SPEAKER_05]: Blazing the hits and more.
[54:57.360 --> 54:58.440] [SPEAKER_05]: Locking down the street.
[54:59.740 --> 55:01.540] [SPEAKER_12]: 99.9, it is the...
[55:01.540 --> 55:03.560] [SPEAKER_12]: Yo, number one in the live fair lion system.
[55:04.000 --> 55:05.760] [SPEAKER_05]: Triple nine HD in the mix.
[55:06.700 --> 55:09.440] [SPEAKER_12]: 99.9, roll out, roll out, roll out.
[55:09.460 --> 55:10.480] [SPEAKER_03]: See, girl, and I'm a smash it.
[55:10.880 --> 55:12.340] [SPEAKER_03]: Put the dance, and then we smash it.
[55:12.500 --> 55:14.280] [SPEAKER_03]: Keep me while we're drunk, call away from smash it.
[55:14.420 --> 55:15.920] [SPEAKER_03]: Give me water, I can't pass it.
[55:16.140 --> 55:17.060] [SPEAKER_03]: Aye, with them set.
[55:18.720 --> 55:19.520] [SPEAKER_02]: 99.9.
[55:19.520 --> 55:21.620] [SPEAKER_03]: Where the woman has come from daddy.
[55:23.160 --> 55:25.240] [SPEAKER_03]: Where the woman has come from daddy.
[55:25.500 --> 55:27.620] [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, this is not 99.9, it's 99.5.
[55:27.820 --> 55:29.960] [SPEAKER_16]: David Garn, thank you so much for sharing this with us.
[55:29.960 --> 55:31.360] [SPEAKER_11]: It's great being here, thanks for having me.
[55:31.400 --> 55:34.540] [SPEAKER_16]: And we will see you at Hope, and we'll see, hopefully, a lot of our listeners at Hope.
[55:34.920 --> 55:37.260] [SPEAKER_16]: We'll be back in, I think, three weeks.
[55:37.780 --> 55:40.520] [SPEAKER_16]: Write to us, oth@2600.com.
[55:41.060 --> 55:43.540] [SPEAKER_16]: And stay tuned for the personal computer show.
[55:44.000 --> 55:44.400] [SPEAKER_16]: Good night.