[00:00.000 --> 00:09.240] [SPEAKER_13]: You're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM Pacifica Radio and online at WBAI.org.
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[00:34.980 --> 00:37.340] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is WBAI New York.
[00:37.660 --> 00:41.660] [SPEAKER_11]: It's 8.01, which means it's time for Off The Hook.
[02:31.010 --> 02:33.030] [SPEAKER_11]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:33.030 --> 02:34.670] [SPEAKER_11]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:34.930 --> 02:37.970] [SPEAKER_11]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:38.090 --> 02:38.450] [SPEAKER_11]: Firefly.
[02:38.770 --> 02:39.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[02:39.730 --> 02:40.050] [SPEAKER_11]: Kyle.
[02:40.490 --> 02:40.730] [SPEAKER_11]: Hey.
[02:41.250 --> 02:41.890] [SPEAKER_11]: Jim, how you doing?
[02:42.130 --> 02:42.330] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[02:42.990 --> 02:45.150] [SPEAKER_11]: And somewhere is Bernie S.
[02:46.030 --> 02:47.990] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:48.390 --> 02:48.830] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[02:49.050 --> 02:50.950] [SPEAKER_11]: We have a lot planned tonight.
[02:50.950 --> 02:55.350] [SPEAKER_11]: We're going to be talking to people live from Standing Rock in just a little bit.
[02:55.630 --> 03:01.510] [SPEAKER_11]: But there are some other things that we should also focus upon because it's kind of, I think, dramatic.
[03:02.630 --> 03:03.190] [SPEAKER_11]: Almost, folks.
[03:03.410 --> 03:03.730] [SPEAKER_11]: Almost.
[03:03.850 --> 03:04.030] [SPEAKER_11]: Almost.
[03:04.150 --> 03:07.370] [SPEAKER_11]: I know it doesn't count, but it's a big almost.
[03:07.370 --> 03:07.450] [SPEAKER_11]: Almost.
[03:07.750 --> 03:13.610] [SPEAKER_11]: We were almost the, I don't know what the, it's not man of the year, thing of the year, I guess.
[03:13.850 --> 03:14.430] [SPEAKER_11]: Person of the year.
[03:14.530 --> 03:14.850] [SPEAKER_11]: Person of the year.
[03:15.590 --> 03:16.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Objects of the year.
[03:16.710 --> 03:17.110] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[03:17.330 --> 03:21.490] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we all know who won, who the man of the year is.
[03:21.670 --> 03:23.630] [SPEAKER_11]: I can't say I'm surprised, right?
[03:24.330 --> 03:25.470] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, Kyle, don't you?
[03:25.890 --> 03:26.850] [SPEAKER_11]: Have you seen the story?
[03:27.050 --> 03:29.090] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I think I know what you're talking about.
[03:29.190 --> 03:33.430] [SPEAKER_11]: Are you using your 2600 ski cap as a microphone cover thing?
[03:33.670 --> 03:33.990] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[03:33.990 --> 03:34.550] [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[03:34.830 --> 03:35.570] [SPEAKER_08]: It works.
[03:35.710 --> 03:36.310] [SPEAKER_08]: It does work, doesn't it?
[03:36.310 --> 03:37.890] [SPEAKER_08]: There's no pop sopper here.
[03:38.070 --> 03:43.330] [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah, I used the hacker mentality and used my Knit 2600 Knit cap.
[03:44.050 --> 03:44.410] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[03:44.690 --> 03:44.910] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[03:45.150 --> 03:47.610] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that I got from our holiday special.
[03:47.850 --> 03:52.150] [SPEAKER_11]: So, if you get tired of putting it on your head, you can put it on the microphone and run a radio station.
[03:52.230 --> 03:52.490] [SPEAKER_11]: That's great.
[03:52.710 --> 03:52.850] [SPEAKER_11]: It's true.
[03:53.030 --> 03:53.390] [SPEAKER_11]: It's true.
[03:53.570 --> 03:54.210] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, well, now I want one.
[03:54.510 --> 03:58.250] [SPEAKER_09]: Now, not to toot our own product's horns, but I think you sound a lot better through that than you usually do.
[03:58.410 --> 04:00.830] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you wouldn't want to hear me without this.
[04:00.850 --> 04:02.370] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the black one, not the navy blue one.
[04:02.530 --> 04:03.250] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, yeah.
[04:03.250 --> 04:04.050] [SPEAKER_11]: All right, whatever.
[04:04.450 --> 04:04.990] [SPEAKER_11]: No, it's true.
[04:05.150 --> 04:06.550] [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway, get back to the point here.
[04:07.110 --> 04:08.750] [SPEAKER_11]: Man of the year, Donald J.
[04:08.890 --> 04:09.110] [SPEAKER_11]: Trump.
[04:09.350 --> 04:11.650] [SPEAKER_11]: And I mean, even I can't be surprised by that.
[04:11.770 --> 04:13.410] [SPEAKER_11]: Why are you raving your fist in the air, Jim?
[04:13.830 --> 04:16.070] [SPEAKER_11]: That's not anything to be proud of.
[04:16.810 --> 04:18.470] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that was definitely gesticulating.
[04:18.470 --> 04:22.330] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it's basically a foregone conclusion.
[04:22.330 --> 04:23.370] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, who else?
[04:23.470 --> 04:26.610] [SPEAKER_11]: Who else could possibly, after this year that we just went through?
[04:27.190 --> 04:30.550] [SPEAKER_11]: And number two, Hillary Rodden Clinton, runner-up.
[04:30.670 --> 04:31.110] [SPEAKER_11]: I can't.
[04:31.210 --> 04:34.630] [SPEAKER_11]: She must be hitting a wall with a fist right now.
[04:34.770 --> 04:36.170] [SPEAKER_11]: Again, runner-up to this guy.
[04:36.170 --> 04:39.270] [SPEAKER_11]: But number three, number three, the hackers.
[04:39.430 --> 04:40.370] [SPEAKER_11]: I did not see this coming.
[04:40.490 --> 04:41.090] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, really?
[04:41.370 --> 04:41.630] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah.
[04:41.790 --> 04:45.050] [SPEAKER_11]: And there's a piece that ran in time today.
[04:45.530 --> 04:46.870] [SPEAKER_11]: I'll just read a little bit of it.
[04:46.950 --> 04:56.490] [SPEAKER_11]: Hackers have a bad name everywhere, it seems, except in Silicon Valley, founded as it was on the virtues of creatively overcoming technical limits by any means.
[04:56.650 --> 05:06.970] [SPEAKER_11]: This tradition produced the likes of Bill Gates, Steve Wozniak, Mark Zuckerberg, who on the eve of Facebook's initial public offering four years ago lamented the unfairly negative connotation of the word.
[05:07.070 --> 05:11.630] [SPEAKER_11]: Hacking, he wrote, just means building something quickly or testing the boundaries of what can be done.
[05:11.850 --> 05:14.990] [SPEAKER_11]: Like most things, it can be used for good or bad.
[05:15.130 --> 05:16.130] [SPEAKER_11]: We've said this many, many times.
[05:16.630 --> 05:19.990] [SPEAKER_11]: This year will be remembered for the bad.
[05:19.990 --> 05:33.490] [SPEAKER_11]: And hardly a week went by without news of some kind of digital breach somewhere in the world, often establishing some kind of record for sheer scope, for novel tactics, or for setting an ominous new precedent.
[05:33.490 --> 05:34.630] [SPEAKER_11]: Hackers broke into the U.S.
[05:34.930 --> 05:38.530] [SPEAKER_11]: Department of Justice, the Internal Revenue Service, and likely the National Security Agency.
[05:38.530 --> 05:46.330] [SPEAKER_11]: They stole or tried to sell data from private companies, including Adult Friend Finder, LinkedIn, Mail.ru, and Yahoo.
[05:46.330 --> 06:01.170] [SPEAKER_11]: They leaked the confidential medical records of elite athletes Simone Biles and Serena and Venus Williams, the private photos of celebrities, including comedian Leslie Jones, and along the way, the embarrassing password choices of a billionaire hacker named Zuckerberg.
[06:01.290 --> 06:15.090] [SPEAKER_11]: They blocked millions of Americans from accessing the Internet one day this fall by remotely taking control of legions of web-connected gadgets, such as baby monitors and digital video recorders to unleash floods of bogus traffic.
[06:15.270 --> 06:23.490] [SPEAKER_11]: They shut down the San Francisco Municipal Railway over Thanksgiving weekend after an IT administrator allegedly clicked one wrong link embedded in a malicious email.
[06:23.650 --> 06:25.990] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I'm not going to continue here because it goes on for quite a ways.
[06:26.230 --> 06:31.550] [SPEAKER_11]: But for God's sake, I mean, you might as well blame human beings and say all of this is their fault.
[06:31.590 --> 06:45.490] [SPEAKER_11]: To say that hackers are responsible for all these negative things that are basically the result of people who don't have a clue using machines and doing things they're not supposed to do, and then saying every evil person out there is ipso facto a hacker,
[06:45.690 --> 06:46.850] [SPEAKER_11]: that is just so naive.
[06:46.850 --> 06:49.370] [SPEAKER_11]: And I can't believe time would fall for this.
[06:49.910 --> 06:53.370] [SPEAKER_11]: Hackers are people who fix these systems, who design these systems.
[06:53.570 --> 07:01.610] [SPEAKER_11]: And yeah, there might be some evil people out there too, but to just paint the broad brush and say all hackers are evil in this way, I thought we had progressed beyond that.
[07:01.710 --> 07:11.070] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, if it feels easy to do, creating a monolith when you're describing a community like this, you're doing something wrong, like you're getting it wrong.
[07:11.930 --> 07:13.530] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not a monolith.
[07:13.730 --> 07:17.550] [SPEAKER_08]: And to treat it like that ignores the diversity.
[07:17.810 --> 07:31.850] [SPEAKER_08]: And as you said, the sort of autonomy of individuals, the people proper deserve a little bit better than to be lumped into a fictitious monolith like that.
[07:32.290 --> 07:32.690] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[07:32.890 --> 07:33.170] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, absolutely.
[07:33.810 --> 07:34.210] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[07:34.390 --> 07:47.870] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it's always kind of disheartening when once again, the entire hacker community is painted with this sort of Hollywood bad guy brush and blamed for everything that's gone wrong with these systems that everyone's using every day of their lives now.
[07:47.990 --> 07:54.610] [SPEAKER_09]: But on the other hand, I mean, the whole person of the year list, I think, was kind of gloomy this year.
[07:55.630 --> 07:58.430] [SPEAKER_09]: Of course, Donald Trump won.
[07:58.730 --> 08:00.290] [SPEAKER_09]: And of course, Hillary Clinton was second.
[08:00.510 --> 08:04.310] [SPEAKER_09]: But you know, we... so I guess it takes those two to beat us.
[08:05.690 --> 08:07.350] [SPEAKER_09]: So that's kind of maybe a compliment.
[08:07.390 --> 08:09.610] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if she really earned second, to be honest.
[08:09.730 --> 08:10.810] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to be nasty here.
[08:10.950 --> 08:14.650] [SPEAKER_11]: But Donald Trump, I could see, you know, because everybody was just talking about him all year long.
[08:14.730 --> 08:20.930] [SPEAKER_11]: And the whole year was defined by all the things he kept doing, despite what we thought he was going to wind up actually doing.
[08:21.970 --> 08:24.550] [SPEAKER_11]: And hackers, though, I didn't see that.
[08:24.830 --> 08:25.770] [SPEAKER_11]: But I did predict.
[08:26.010 --> 08:26.890] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if you remember this.
[08:27.110 --> 08:31.550] [SPEAKER_11]: Last year, end of year show, we all predicted something that's going to happen in the next year.
[08:31.710 --> 08:32.470] [SPEAKER_11]: And I predicted.
[08:32.610 --> 08:33.470] [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't listened to this.
[08:33.530 --> 08:34.370] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know exactly what I said.
[08:34.450 --> 08:42.470] [SPEAKER_11]: But I know I said something involving hackers and the presidential election, that somehow hackers would be blamed or something along those lines.
[08:42.710 --> 08:44.310] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that's exactly the wording.
[08:44.470 --> 08:45.610] [SPEAKER_08]: I think you said something effective.
[08:45.950 --> 08:54.710] [SPEAKER_08]: The hackers will be found to be the culprits behind some revelation in the election cycle.
[08:54.850 --> 08:58.310] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, if that is true, I think I just deserve a little commendation for getting it right.
[08:58.390 --> 09:01.050] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe people will listen to me when I warn them about things.
[09:01.250 --> 09:06.210] [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, one of our listeners, Pyro, actually wrote in last week to claim something even more dramatic.
[09:06.650 --> 09:10.650] [SPEAKER_11]: Apparently, I don't know why he was listening to the June 20th, 2000 edition of Off The Hook.
[09:11.210 --> 09:12.290] [SPEAKER_11]: But more power to you.
[09:12.290 --> 09:15.190] [SPEAKER_11]: If you want to listen to our old shows, they are pretty entertaining.
[09:15.470 --> 09:20.670] [SPEAKER_11]: And apparently I said something back then about Donald Trump running for president or Donald Trump being a politician.
[09:21.230 --> 09:22.710] [SPEAKER_11]: Listen to this segment here.
[09:22.930 --> 09:27.330] [SPEAKER_11]: All this antitrust action is, you know, the same thing that's going to happen with Microsoft.
[09:28.070 --> 09:38.830] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to note that it's not necessarily the people who are best at what they're doing, it's the people who are best at controlling the market, the best at the industry, the best more at the politics than at the actual service.
[09:39.310 --> 09:45.670] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, the people who are really bad at the actual service won't be surviving to the point where they can go buy someone else.
[09:45.790 --> 09:48.570] [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's the people that don't have the money that won't be surviving.
[09:49.310 --> 09:50.130] [SPEAKER_10]: That's what I think.
[09:50.330 --> 09:51.570] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think it has anything to do with quality.
[09:51.710 --> 09:52.330] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think...
[09:52.330 --> 09:53.470] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, how does a business get money?
[09:53.490 --> 09:59.490] [SPEAKER_10]: Just like I don't think Steve Forbes necessarily is... or Donald Trump...
[10:00.590 --> 10:03.070] [SPEAKER_10]: Guys, we're doing a radio show here, if you don't mind.
[10:09.170 --> 10:17.550] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I don't think these guys are... are the most, I don't know, technically savvy because they just happen to be the monopoly.
[10:17.690 --> 10:19.130] [SPEAKER_10]: I just don't think it works that way.
[10:19.910 --> 10:20.510] Okay.
[10:20.790 --> 10:26.070] [SPEAKER_11]: I love how, how even then, uh, there were people barging in and interrupting the radio show.
[10:26.390 --> 10:40.870] [SPEAKER_11]: But, um, yeah, it seems just so bizarre and, and, uh, unfathomable that something as ridiculous as a businessman of Donald, uh, Donald Trump's, uh, uh, stature or Steve Forbes would enter the world of politics.
[10:40.890 --> 10:57.210] [SPEAKER_11]: That just, that was the example I was trying to make back then that this is, this is why the people we were talking about the, um, the merger of, uh, the proposed merger of Bell Atlantic and GTE that would create Verizon, uh, and, uh, how, uh, we got into a debate about whether monopolies were good or not.
[10:57.550 --> 10:58.930] [SPEAKER_11]: I took the side that they were not.
[10:59.370 --> 11:08.030] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, um, yeah, it just, um, the, the point was being made that, um, you can't trust the people that are the biggest to get it technically right.
[11:08.270 --> 11:14.170] [SPEAKER_11]: Just like you can't trust, uh, the, the, the biggest, richest business people to know anything about politics.
[11:14.370 --> 11:14.710] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[11:14.830 --> 11:17.890] [SPEAKER_09]: For, for what it's worth in a retrospect, I agree with 16 years ago, you.
[11:18.350 --> 11:18.750] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[11:18.870 --> 11:19.390] [SPEAKER_09]: Bernie, go ahead.
[11:20.370 --> 11:23.330] [SPEAKER_05]: I just want to say, I, I remember you probably do too.
[11:23.670 --> 11:25.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I don't know, maybe it was 20 years ago.
[11:26.150 --> 11:30.770] [SPEAKER_05]: Time magazine shows the Internet as the something of the year on their cover.
[11:30.910 --> 11:35.530] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't, you know, everybody was surprised cause it wasn't a person, but it was the Internet.
[11:35.530 --> 11:45.250] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, it's coming around the, uh, you know, it's, time is, again, recognizing that, uh, you know, the Internet just didn't happen by itself.
[11:45.490 --> 11:50.270] [SPEAKER_05]: It was developed by, by hackers, you know, hackers built the Internet.
[11:50.490 --> 12:02.510] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, ostensibly the defense, uh, advanced research project agency, DARPA, you know, funded some of the initial, uh, project and Al Gore would probably take some credit for it too.
[12:02.670 --> 12:08.570] [SPEAKER_05]: But the bottom line is the Pete, the individuals that built the technology behind the Internet were, you know, they're hackers.
[12:08.950 --> 12:10.450] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, in a, in a, in a true sense.
[12:10.690 --> 12:16.030] [SPEAKER_05]: So this is not the first time that hackers were, uh, considered to be on the cover.
[12:16.150 --> 12:29.570] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I just think there could have been a much better, um, uh, tone when hackers were recognized as being, uh, entity of the year, whatever you want to call them, because there's so much, uh, so much positive, uh, positiveness that comes out of the hacker world.
[12:29.890 --> 12:31.530] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we focus on that quite a bit.
[12:31.730 --> 12:36.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, and to just basically look at everything that went wrong and say, oh, it's the hacker's fault.
[12:36.490 --> 12:38.770] [SPEAKER_11]: Not it's the fault of the people who design bad systems.
[12:38.910 --> 12:43.490] [SPEAKER_11]: Not it's the fault of people who want to steal and rip people off, uh, or, or people who want to steal votes.
[12:43.890 --> 12:44.910] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's not their fault.
[12:45.010 --> 12:45.770] [SPEAKER_11]: It's all hackers.
[12:45.910 --> 12:47.930] [SPEAKER_11]: It just, it's not that simple.
[12:48.130 --> 12:49.550] [SPEAKER_11]: We, we, we, we all know this.
[12:49.810 --> 12:50.170] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[12:50.390 --> 12:52.090] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, slight collection, uh, correction to you, Bernie.
[12:52.470 --> 12:58.470] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, time Time Magazine has done this a few times, where they've chosen a person of the year that's not quite a person.
[12:58.590 --> 13:01.850] [SPEAKER_09]: In 2006, they chose you as the person of the year.
[13:02.030 --> 13:02.270] [SPEAKER_09]: Bernie?
[13:02.470 --> 13:09.850] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, not just Bernie, but the royal you, you in general, and the cover was mirrored, so you saw yourself when you looked at it.
[13:10.330 --> 13:15.810] [SPEAKER_09]: And again, in 2011, they chose the protester as the person of the year.
[13:16.030 --> 13:18.430] [SPEAKER_11]: That mirrored cover almost put me in business, by the way.
[13:18.490 --> 13:19.670] [SPEAKER_11]: It was very expensive for them to do that.
[13:19.670 --> 13:24.330] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but for both of those reasons, I actually have it on my resume that I'm two-time a time person of the year.
[13:24.730 --> 13:29.510] [SPEAKER_09]: But also, back in 2002, they had the whistleblowers were the person of the year.
[13:30.230 --> 13:34.990] [SPEAKER_09]: And so that's a thing that time has done a couple of times, a few times.
[13:35.890 --> 13:39.490] [SPEAKER_09]: And yeah, I don't know if it's a cop-out.
[13:39.590 --> 13:40.430] [SPEAKER_09]: They don't want to pick a person.
[13:40.430 --> 13:51.830] [SPEAKER_09]: But no, it's interesting, and it might have been nice for the hackers, even the ill-defined Hollywood bad guy hackers, to be person of the year this time.
[13:52.910 --> 13:56.110] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm still really amazed that we were even in the running there.
[13:56.270 --> 13:58.430] [SPEAKER_08]: I had no idea until you just told me.
[13:58.430 --> 14:11.750] [SPEAKER_08]: But it seems like they are missing the real, the sort of true heroic things that hackers have been involved with, aside from technical malady.
[14:12.070 --> 14:22.030] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, still, to this day, rampant security vulnerabilities and sort of lack of knowledge.
[14:22.030 --> 14:25.030] [SPEAKER_08]: But there's been a great service that's been done.
[14:25.030 --> 14:26.450] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's just so funny.
[14:26.630 --> 14:36.430] [SPEAKER_08]: I think this is the sentiment that, like, when things are going great, everybody will stand behind and, you know, fly the hacker banner.
[14:36.650 --> 14:49.910] [SPEAKER_08]: But when things, you know, might be controversial or they might be political, as we've seen this year, and otherwise negative, people abandon the hackers and don't want to...
[14:49.910 --> 14:51.810] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, well, not all together.
[14:52.030 --> 15:07.370] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think the point is that the spoils of hacking and how successful it has been, as far as being in the lexicon and being a part of industry and technological advances, people love to sing the praise of it then.
[15:07.470 --> 15:15.110] [SPEAKER_08]: But when things are difficult, they're less inclined to think of hackers as a good thing.
[15:15.110 --> 15:18.270] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that's bad, as you guys have said.
[15:19.270 --> 15:19.650] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[15:19.710 --> 15:20.330] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, moving on.
[15:20.630 --> 15:29.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Bernie, you alerted us to something a little while ago that I don't want to consider as being alarmist, per se.
[15:29.950 --> 15:35.370] [SPEAKER_11]: The headline read, Huge solar storm could wipe out modern technology by 2020.
[15:37.190 --> 15:40.870] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, you know, the story itself is a lot calmer than the headline.
[15:41.070 --> 15:56.030] [SPEAKER_11]: But is there actual truth to this, this possibility that something, there's something like a 12% chance that this is going to happen by 2020, and that it's going to take us years to recover from it?
[15:57.670 --> 15:59.630] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it's actually, it's pretty likely.
[15:59.850 --> 16:02.350] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm hearing a lot of echo in my voice right now.
[16:02.490 --> 16:03.390] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we can hear you.
[16:04.330 --> 16:07.650] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a thing called coronal mass ejections.
[16:07.930 --> 16:12.030] [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody who's a regular shortwave listener who knows about sunspots and how they affect the ionosphere.
[16:12.890 --> 16:16.310] [SPEAKER_05]: Every few years, there's a cycle.
[16:16.550 --> 16:17.310] [SPEAKER_05]: These things go in a cycle.
[16:18.130 --> 16:26.190] [SPEAKER_05]: And back in 1859, there was a huge coronal mass ejection that melted telegraph lines.
[16:27.730 --> 16:31.630] [SPEAKER_05]: And there was another one back in 2013.
[16:31.630 --> 16:35.470] [SPEAKER_05]: 2013, or actually, yeah, back in 2012, there was another one.
[16:35.590 --> 16:40.510] [SPEAKER_05]: But fortunately, the sun was spinning on its axis, and it went the other way.
[16:40.690 --> 16:44.730] [SPEAKER_05]: And had, you know, in this 25-day cycle, we missed it by nine days.
[16:45.130 --> 16:50.250] [SPEAKER_05]: Had Earth been bathed by it, basically all the wires would have melted.
[16:51.110 --> 16:52.790] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, people would not have.
[16:52.930 --> 16:53.810] [SPEAKER_05]: We might have got sunburned.
[16:53.870 --> 17:04.090] [SPEAKER_05]: But there are scientists in San Diego who are saying that there is now a 12% chance this is going to happen by 2020, which is only about three years from now.
[17:04.270 --> 17:08.170] [SPEAKER_05]: So maybe we'll have a scientist sometime on between now and then to talk about this.
[17:08.170 --> 17:10.130] [SPEAKER_05]: This isn't a Y2K theoretical thing.
[17:10.310 --> 17:11.670] [SPEAKER_05]: This has happened before.
[17:12.230 --> 17:13.690] [SPEAKER_05]: And it will happen again.
[17:13.690 --> 17:16.090] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a question of when, kind of like earthquakes.
[17:16.410 --> 17:18.110] [SPEAKER_05]: But I just, I don't know.
[17:18.110 --> 17:20.450] [SPEAKER_05]: This is one of the things I sent to us to consider.
[17:20.450 --> 17:21.470] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know it would be covered tonight.
[17:21.690 --> 17:27.090] [SPEAKER_05]: But it's something we should be following, because this could really affect everything that has wires in it.
[17:27.090 --> 17:36.150] [SPEAKER_05]: The Internet, telephones, computers, TV and radio stations, that will all go off the air if this happens again.
[17:36.370 --> 17:38.230] [SPEAKER_05]: So we'll just keep watching this.
[17:38.350 --> 17:38.950] [SPEAKER_05]: Keep looking up.
[17:40.550 --> 17:51.390] [SPEAKER_09]: So if this happened, how extensive could, you know, just shooting the moon here, so to speak, what would you guess the effect would be like?
[17:51.910 --> 17:53.150] [SPEAKER_09]: Completely uneducated guess.
[17:53.150 --> 18:07.650] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we would not have, well, Lloyds of London and the Atmospheric and Environmental Research Organization, they estimated it would cost between $600 billion and $2.6 trillion.
[18:07.650 --> 18:14.110] [SPEAKER_05]: That's $2,600 billion and take maybe four to ten years to recover from.
[18:14.110 --> 18:30.610] [SPEAKER_05]: Just think, all electronic communications would basically cease unless, you know, I guess ham radio operators who might have their radios, you know, in a shielded room or something and then bring them out after the sun flare.
[18:31.090 --> 18:32.210] [SPEAKER_05]: There'll be that kind of communication.
[18:32.290 --> 18:35.050] [SPEAKER_05]: It'll be a while before stuff gets reconnected again.
[18:35.250 --> 18:39.650] [SPEAKER_05]: And four to ten years to fully recover from this, that would change.
[18:39.650 --> 18:44.790] [SPEAKER_05]: I think economies could collapse, but maybe we get to people talking face-to-face again.
[18:45.070 --> 18:46.470] [SPEAKER_05]: Wouldn't that be, Maude, interesting?
[18:47.910 --> 18:48.870] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, absolutely.
[18:49.130 --> 18:52.770] [SPEAKER_08]: And so this is an event, a solar storm, that happened recently.
[18:53.750 --> 18:54.790] [SPEAKER_08]: As far as...
[18:54.790 --> 18:59.030] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you aware, Bernie, is this something that happened recently and it'll take a little bit to get to us?
[18:59.030 --> 19:08.950] [SPEAKER_08]: Or this is just the 12% chance that a solar storm big enough in the interim period of time could reach Earth and disrupt technological stuff, as we've said?
[19:09.690 --> 19:10.190] [SPEAKER_08]: Go ahead.
[19:10.230 --> 19:12.770] [SPEAKER_05]: A bunch of these things have happened.
[19:13.390 --> 19:15.130] [SPEAKER_05]: The last one happened in 2012.
[19:15.130 --> 19:24.390] [SPEAKER_05]: It just happened to be that the sun, which spins on its own axis on a 25-day cycle, our days, was pointed in the opposite direction.
[19:24.590 --> 19:26.390] [SPEAKER_05]: We missed it by nine days.
[19:26.530 --> 19:34.510] [SPEAKER_05]: Had the planet and the sun lined up a certain way in 2012, we'd still be recovering from this right now.
[19:34.510 --> 19:45.270] [SPEAKER_05]: There was one a few years earlier that knocked out a whole lot of communications in Canada, because it wasn't as strong, but Canada was closer to the sun in that part where it happened.
[19:45.530 --> 19:45.790] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[19:45.890 --> 19:53.570] [SPEAKER_05]: So this has happened before, and big ones have happened before that didn't hit us, and one did hit us in 1859 that melted.
[19:53.830 --> 19:58.510] [SPEAKER_05]: The only telecommunications in 1859 basically was telegraphs.
[19:59.410 --> 19:59.430] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[19:59.470 --> 20:00.110] [SPEAKER_05]: It was before radio.
[20:00.330 --> 20:00.590] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[20:00.590 --> 20:03.850] [SPEAKER_05]: Telegraphs, and it melted telegraph lines.
[20:04.070 --> 20:04.870] [SPEAKER_05]: Those were open...
[20:04.870 --> 20:05.750] [SPEAKER_05]: So this could happen here.
[20:05.950 --> 20:08.250] [SPEAKER_08]: Those were open wire communications lines.
[20:09.730 --> 20:09.830] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, right.
[20:10.310 --> 20:10.870] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting.
[20:11.290 --> 20:19.230] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, so obviously people will protect certain technologies, but there's just not...
[20:19.230 --> 20:25.350] [SPEAKER_08]: There's so much stuff that's exposed that it would be very hard to prevent against something like this.
[20:25.350 --> 20:34.070] [SPEAKER_08]: So yes, this is something to watch, solar weather, and I guess something to learn from.
[20:34.270 --> 20:44.870] [SPEAKER_08]: It's ways to design, maybe, for this eventuality, because it's so hard to imagine being without so much at once.
[20:44.870 --> 20:52.830] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, the fun part of this is considering, okay, this took down telegraph lines in the 19th century, but now we've got so much more going on than that.
[20:52.970 --> 20:57.530] [SPEAKER_09]: We've got not only the above-ground lines and cabling and stuff, but we've got satellites.
[20:57.790 --> 21:00.310] [SPEAKER_09]: We've got, you know, we've got wireless stuff going on.
[21:00.310 --> 21:07.410] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's really interesting, I think, to think about what it could mean to lose access to all of this.
[21:07.650 --> 21:11.390] [SPEAKER_09]: So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how this comes out one way or another.
[21:11.630 --> 21:13.050] [SPEAKER_08]: This is the same phenomenon.
[21:13.190 --> 21:20.910] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a natural occurrence that causes the Borealis, the northern lights, in certain parts of the world.
[21:21.250 --> 21:23.610] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's, yes, a solar wind.
[21:24.470 --> 21:26.510] [SPEAKER_08]: Yet another thing to prepare for.
[21:26.510 --> 21:35.210] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, on that note, we have our guests connected after a lot of phone heroics here.
[21:36.790 --> 21:42.490] [SPEAKER_11]: We're speaking with Leisha and John out in Standing Rock.
[21:42.490 --> 21:43.910] [SPEAKER_11]: Are you guys there with us?
[21:45.950 --> 21:47.370] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm here with you.
[21:47.710 --> 21:48.590] [SPEAKER_11]: Great, okay.
[21:49.090 --> 21:52.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Sorry for all the histrionics here as far as connecting you guys.
[21:52.390 --> 21:53.650] [SPEAKER_11]: We hung up a couple of times.
[21:54.590 --> 22:03.310] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, okay, Leisha, Leisha Sterling gave a talk at the HOPE conference, actually, about the security of water.
[22:03.470 --> 22:04.170] [SPEAKER_11]: Water security.
[22:04.450 --> 22:05.450] [SPEAKER_11]: A great title, by the way.
[22:05.530 --> 22:08.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Are we in denial or in scene?
[22:08.970 --> 22:13.450] [SPEAKER_11]: You have water policies, availability, and geeks without bounds.
[22:13.610 --> 22:16.150] [SPEAKER_11]: And you, it was a Saturday morning talk.
[22:16.270 --> 22:17.130] [SPEAKER_11]: It was very well received.
[22:18.910 --> 22:22.310] [SPEAKER_11]: And I just, I'm thrilled that we're able to have you on.
[22:22.450 --> 22:23.850] [SPEAKER_11]: You're, you're at Standing Rock now?
[22:26.050 --> 22:27.430] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I am.
[22:28.030 --> 22:39.290] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually sitting in the Cannonball Rec Center about a mile or so south of the Oceti Shuckling Camp because it's warm and I have a phone connection here.
[22:40.370 --> 22:52.130] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, and we also, we're also joined by John Bigelow, a Standing Rock Sioux tribal member and head of, forgive me if I'm pronouncing this wrong, head of the Oceti Sackowin Camp media team.
[22:52.830 --> 22:54.050] [SPEAKER_11]: You're over there too, right?
[22:55.450 --> 22:56.630] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I am.
[22:57.150 --> 22:57.630] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[22:58.030 --> 23:04.890] [SPEAKER_11]: And you warned us that your connectivity might cut out because there's all kinds of things going on there with your connection.
[23:05.610 --> 23:09.810] [SPEAKER_11]: Are you guys, are you guys near each other as far as where you're actually standing now?
[23:11.910 --> 23:14.730] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I can see him across a very long table.
[23:16.190 --> 23:30.270] [SPEAKER_00]: We're, we're in a very busy space at the moment where, we're at the, the room that's been sort of the headquarters for the voice of Oceti Shuckling Camp for the last couple of months.
[23:30.270 --> 23:48.530] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and the, this room is attached to a rec center that at the moment is being used as, uh, an emergency backup shelter for people who did not listen to the fact that, uh, the winters are very harsh and you should not come with summer tents.
[23:48.750 --> 23:49.790] [SPEAKER_00]: They are cold.
[23:50.010 --> 23:51.750] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they are staying warm in the rec center.
[23:51.750 --> 23:54.330] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, this, this was the first thing I was going to bring up.
[23:54.530 --> 23:58.370] [SPEAKER_11]: I understand you guys got hit with, uh, a real bonafide blizzard the other day.
[23:58.450 --> 23:59.130] [SPEAKER_11]: Is that, is that correct?
[24:01.930 --> 24:10.130] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yeah, um, we've actually gotten hit by two blizzards, the, a really nasty one, um, was it yesterday?
[24:10.430 --> 24:14.710] [SPEAKER_00]: All time in, all time in space has, like, blended into one while I've been here.
[24:14.890 --> 24:18.390] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was yesterday when it was snowing so, so, so hard.
[24:18.830 --> 24:19.490] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[24:19.490 --> 24:22.210] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, just road conditions were horrific.
[24:22.590 --> 24:33.270] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, now, uh, those of us who've been following the news, um, and, and following this story, which is really an incredible story, um, you have, uh, thousands and thousands of people who are there camped out, uh, protesting this pipeline.
[24:33.270 --> 24:43.070] [SPEAKER_11]: You had, uh, something on the order of 2,000 veterans that were, uh, coming over, uh, to protect them, uh, to, uh, to, to stand up for the, the water protectors.
[24:43.070 --> 24:56.310] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and, um, and then, on Sunday, we had what appeared to be a victory when the Army Corps of Engineers announced that they would not be granting a permit to the company, uh, that, uh, is, uh, is digging this pipeline.
[24:56.810 --> 25:03.790] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and, uh, in fact, um, I, I'm seeing stories where the, uh, the Sioux leader is urging protesters to leave.
[25:03.910 --> 25:09.530] [SPEAKER_11]: But I understand it's not quite that simple that this battle is not necessarily over yet.
[25:09.530 --> 25:11.290] [SPEAKER_11]: Can you, can you speak to that a little bit?
[25:13.530 --> 25:14.010] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[25:14.250 --> 25:25.130] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I can speak to it a little bit in the sense that, um, everything is shifting very quickly right now, um, kind of on all sides.
[25:25.410 --> 25:42.770] [SPEAKER_00]: There's the, um, the fact of the matter is that back in October, um, when we were doing the census for how many people were going to stay here through the winter to, um, to continue, uh, protecting the water, we had less than 300 people that were going to stay.
[25:43.070 --> 25:53.670] [SPEAKER_00]: And we prepared for the winter for about 300 people, um, by Thanksgiving, we had 12,000 people and that went down to maybe nine to 10,000 people.
[25:53.970 --> 25:58.790] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, um, somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 veterans showed up.
[25:58.930 --> 26:13.810] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so you can imagine that it's a lot harder to, um, protect the health and safety of that many people in, um, um, what are very austere conditions than it would have been if it were 300.
[26:14.250 --> 26:24.090] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's certainly one of the reasons why, um, with this one victory under our belt, um, and Native leaders are saying like, okay, guys, go home now.
[26:25.470 --> 26:38.810] [SPEAKER_00]: Here, um, we're, we're really grateful that you came, but we need to, uh, make sure that everybody who is here is healthy and safe and warm, uh, cause it's not going to do us any good to protect the water and lose our own lives in the process.
[26:39.690 --> 26:40.670] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, good point.
[26:40.790 --> 26:49.690] [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of, you know, right now as everything's happening, we want to make sure that there are people on the ground to monitor what's, you know, what's going on up there.
[26:50.310 --> 26:53.330] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, are they, or are they not digging now?
[26:53.830 --> 26:58.770] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, are they opening 1806 back up?
[26:58.990 --> 27:07.850] [SPEAKER_00]: Are they going to take down the big floodlights that have been shining down on the camp since, um, after the October 27th raid of the treaty camp?
[27:08.230 --> 27:11.530] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, what's going to happen next?
[27:11.650 --> 27:25.410] [SPEAKER_00]: So we definitely need to have people on the ground that are going to monitor that, but it should be a, a much, much smaller core group of people, um, that we can sustainably take care of through this bitter winter.
[27:26.470 --> 27:27.130] [SPEAKER_11]: I see.
[27:27.210 --> 27:33.090] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, uh, 1806 is, is the road that they've barricaded off that, uh, uh, prevents a lot of people from getting there.
[27:33.250 --> 27:33.670] [SPEAKER_11]: Is that correct?
[27:35.530 --> 27:36.310] [SPEAKER_00]: That's correct.
[27:36.810 --> 27:41.190] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, it would take to get up to the Mandan-Bismark area.
[27:41.190 --> 27:44.990] [SPEAKER_00]: If that were open, it would take 35 to 40 minutes to get up there.
[27:45.450 --> 27:59.710] [SPEAKER_00]: Right now, you have to do this big roundabout where you go Highway 24 and Highway 6, and it takes, like, an hour just to get to Mandan and an hour and a half to get to Bismarck, where most of the shores and things are, if you need to get supplies.
[28:00.810 --> 28:02.250] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that, that was my next question.
[28:02.390 --> 28:08.290] [SPEAKER_11]: How do you supply this, this number of people, uh, 12,000 people at one point, you said.
[28:08.990 --> 28:12.430] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's, how many, is there, is there, uh, a lot of cooking going on?
[28:12.570 --> 28:13.210] [SPEAKER_11]: Are there kitchens?
[28:13.490 --> 28:14.990] [SPEAKER_11]: How does it, how does it all work?
[28:17.490 --> 28:24.990] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, there are, so the big camp, there, there are several, um, sort of camp areas, right?
[28:25.110 --> 28:33.230] [SPEAKER_00]: The big camp, Oceti Shackling, um, is, is the one that's on, um, what they call Army Corps land.
[28:33.230 --> 28:41.690] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's, it's really part of the land that the 1851 Treaty gave to the Great Sioux Nation, but, you know, the Army Corps claims it now.
[28:42.230 --> 28:44.910] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so, Oceti Shackling is on that.
[28:44.910 --> 29:03.630] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, um, and then on the reservation side of the Cannonball River, there is, um, the Rosebud, or also called the Si'Changu, which is the way you say that tribe's name in Lakota, the Si'Changu camp, um, which is also sort of part of the Oceti Shackling,
[29:04.470 --> 29:06.490] [SPEAKER_00]: um, community, you might say.
[29:06.490 --> 29:14.490] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, um, and then there's another camp called Sacred Stone, which is a camp that existed even before this as private property.
[29:14.490 --> 29:18.330] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a, um, like, it had a campground on it before this.
[29:18.510 --> 29:28.130] [SPEAKER_00]: And when the first people came out, uh, to stand to protect the water, um, they went to the obvious place to go to, which was the existing campground there.
[29:28.610 --> 29:34.590] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and within each of those camps, there is at least one kitchen.
[29:34.590 --> 29:49.630] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the big camp, Oceti Shackling, which, um, when I had to, you know, map it out for the Mesh Network, um, it's like 16 blocks, 16 San Francisco city blocks worth of space.
[29:50.290 --> 29:55.330] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, that actually has many different kitchens in it.
[29:55.930 --> 29:59.250] [SPEAKER_00]: The Oceti Shackling is broken into many different subcamps.
[29:59.250 --> 30:05.750] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's Southwest Camp, there's Media Camp, there's Oglala Camp, there's Michigan Camp.
[30:05.890 --> 30:10.470] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's all these different groups of people in each of those camps.
[30:10.630 --> 30:13.330] [SPEAKER_00]: Not every one of them, but most of them have their own kitchen.
[30:14.150 --> 30:18.610] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, John, let me ask you, you're the head of the, um, the, the camp media team.
[30:18.790 --> 30:24.490] [SPEAKER_11]: Does that mean you're, you're the person, uh, talking to most of the mass media and trying to convey what's actually going on?
[30:25.950 --> 30:50.810] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah, I suppose so, um, as, uh, one of the few, uh, enrolled members of the Standing Rock tribe here, uh, the need was identified to, uh, uh, have some, uh, uh, venue to get the voice of the camp out to a broader, uh, public.
[30:51.470 --> 30:54.290] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was foolish enough to raise my hand.
[30:56.150 --> 30:56.650] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[30:56.810 --> 30:57.630] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, glad you did.
[30:57.990 --> 31:04.990] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, it must be one hell of a challenge to, uh, to, to get the media to, um, to get it right, or at least to attempt that.
[31:06.550 --> 31:14.550] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it was early on, uh, we were getting beat up pretty bad, especially here in the local press.
[31:14.550 --> 31:29.190] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the local, uh, people here, uh, in North Dakota, especially around the Bismarck-Bandan area, we're still very unclear what we were doing here.
[31:29.810 --> 31:38.830] [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, it's been a process over the last several weeks of, uh, trying to, uh, explain those things.
[31:38.830 --> 32:01.110] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we have kind of a cultural rift where, uh, many of the non-Native people who live here and work here have never had to, uh, learn about Lakota Ways and don't really understand, uh, the more, the more intricate things about our culture.
[32:01.490 --> 32:06.630] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so it's been both an informative as well as an educational process.
[32:06.630 --> 32:11.710] [SPEAKER_02]: Even with people who have lived right next door to the reservation for all of their lives.
[32:13.710 --> 32:20.370] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's, uh, really, uh, important to educate and share, uh, with the community.
[32:20.590 --> 32:25.550] [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, it's so impressive that, um, this is, this has become something...
[32:25.550 --> 32:39.850] [SPEAKER_08]: Because early on, we were not seeing, uh, as much coverage by large, uh, media entities, which is, I think it felt good at a certain point, I guess, because the having big, big media entities out there get it wrong has a great impact.
[32:40.230 --> 32:45.550] [SPEAKER_08]: And it was much better to sort of gather things and hear things from the grassroots level, smaller organizations.
[32:45.950 --> 33:00.810] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, and then as they were having difficulty covering the protests, uh, I think a lot of people were galvanized in support for getting the information out so that, um, the broader public and, um, people, especially locally in the state could be informed to,
[33:00.810 --> 33:03.530] [SPEAKER_08]: um, to make some of the, make wise decisions.
[33:03.730 --> 33:07.970] [SPEAKER_11]: Has, has there been much media coverage from other countries in addition to our own?
[33:10.450 --> 33:22.050] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, actually, the response, the response from, um, some European media outlets, uh, uh, uh, they had a presence in camp early on.
[33:22.250 --> 33:32.230] [SPEAKER_02]: I know we've had, uh, uh, uh, media outlets from, uh, uh, Germany and France and, uh, Italy and Spain.
[33:32.470 --> 33:41.770] [SPEAKER_02]: And even, uh, Al Jazeera has been here on the ground, uh, uh, off and on, uh, since I started putting this media team together.
[33:41.950 --> 33:57.490] [SPEAKER_02]: We've had a better presence from media outside the United States until recently when we started, uh, getting some traction with, uh, uh, media, American or United States media sources.
[33:58.750 --> 34:00.430] [SPEAKER_08]: So, um, I had a question.
[34:00.890 --> 34:08.370] [SPEAKER_08]: So obviously the, the, the large number of people that are requiring infrastructure, uh, have led to some technical challenges.
[34:08.370 --> 34:26.170] [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, this resembles in a lot of ways hacker camps and events that, um, have really amazed us as, as far as bringing people together and sort of ad hoc infrastructure being built around, uh, a movement or, um, people of that share an affinity for technology.
[34:26.290 --> 34:40.010] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm wondering what kinds of, uh, things have you guys developed that have worked and how quickly have people been able to take up, uh, building and using technology there either to be it keeps safe or get, um, news and information out?
[34:40.010 --> 34:46.190] [SPEAKER_08]: What kinds of things are you planning and in the future as the, the camp size becomes a little bit more manageable?
[34:48.810 --> 34:56.170] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so one of the things I'd like to adjust first actually is the difference between this and that hacker camp.
[34:56.390 --> 34:56.830] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[34:56.870 --> 35:05.150] [SPEAKER_00]: When, when we come together in hack camps, um, we all are coming together with a unified cultural value.
[35:05.530 --> 35:16.890] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, and we, we all have sort of stated, um, you know, stated rules and boundaries, even if those rules are, you know, be excellent to everyone.
[35:17.290 --> 35:18.810] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a duocracy.
[35:19.230 --> 35:24.590] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, we've, we've established that culture and we go forward and do stuff, right?
[35:25.370 --> 35:47.790] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, coming into a situation like, uh, coming into the Yotachichi Sharko Wing Camp, um, uh, as, you know, as, you know, as geeks without bounds coming in, the very first thing that we had to do was come in and talk to the elders and, um, talk to community members and find out what they wanted and let them set the tone,
[35:48.050 --> 35:52.110] [SPEAKER_00]: um, for what they wanted the boundaries of the technology to be.
[35:52.430 --> 36:03.050] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, um, and also allow them to, um, fully own the process of what technology was coming in and how.
[36:03.450 --> 36:07.450] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, a lot of people complained that there wasn't Internet all over camp.
[36:07.910 --> 36:12.790] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, that was by request of the elders and the community itself.
[36:12.990 --> 36:13.230] [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[36:13.230 --> 36:16.410] [SPEAKER_00]: They only wanted Internet to be in specific locations.
[36:17.090 --> 36:25.190] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so, um, you know, we had our Internet cafe space and we had Internet, uh, available in just a few places.
[36:25.830 --> 36:32.470] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, you know, much to the chagrin of a lot of people who wanted to Facebook from their tent elsewhere.
[36:32.790 --> 36:35.490] [SPEAKER_00]: And they all just like, no, no, that's not what this is for.
[36:36.110 --> 36:57.030] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so that was like a, a big challenge actually in terms of, um, you know, not just the, not the building it part, but just, um, managing expectations between the, the internal community of the Lakota and Dakota peoples that were here that wanted to,
[36:57.310 --> 37:01.590] [SPEAKER_00]: um, you know, maintain this space as their own cultural space.
[37:01.930 --> 37:10.890] [SPEAKER_00]: And all of the allies that came in who wanted things to be more like, um, you know, Burning Man or CCC.
[37:11.650 --> 37:12.010] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[37:12.310 --> 37:13.230] [SPEAKER_11]: Did you get a lot of that?
[37:13.410 --> 37:18.970] [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of people just didn't get the cultural differences that they learn at least, but, but had a lot of exuberance.
[37:22.110 --> 37:22.550] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[37:22.550 --> 37:28.470] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, I, I don't want to give any specific examples, but I can say that absolutely.
[37:28.470 --> 37:45.530] [SPEAKER_00]: There were some really, um, painfully embarrassing moments, uh, in which people came into camp, um, you know, thinking that they were doing great things and were actually massively stepping on communities toes.
[37:46.090 --> 37:50.370] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and there was a lot of learning done.
[37:50.690 --> 37:54.450] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people, I think have been transformed by the process.
[37:54.450 --> 37:58.910] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, a lot of people have learned a little bit and are bringing that back home.
[37:59.350 --> 38:09.730] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that there are, have actually been a lot of people who came in, um, like both in a china shop and have gone home with a new understanding.
[38:10.970 --> 38:12.970] [SPEAKER_11]: John, is there anything you want to add to this?
[38:17.140 --> 38:30.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, Dakota, Dakota, Nakota peoples have had a long history of adopting new technologies, uh, beginning with the horse.
[38:31.500 --> 38:45.140] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, when the horse was introduced here to, uh, America, uh, the Lakota people recognize the benefits of how that would change their lifestyle.
[38:45.500 --> 38:52.300] [SPEAKER_02]: And they integrated that into our culture in a, in a, in a complete way.
[38:52.580 --> 39:02.560] [SPEAKER_02]: We've been, we've embraced things, including, you know, things like muskets and weapons into our culture and made them relevant parts of that.
[39:02.860 --> 39:28.060] [SPEAKER_02]: So, the, the process now in this modern age of integrating, uh, technology and being able to use it, I have to say some of our young people have done an incredible job of learning things like how social media works and being able to, uh, uh, deploy, uh,
[39:28.220 --> 39:55.260] [SPEAKER_02]: uh, those things, um, um, in, uh, in a, in a very, very effective way, uh, to help us get our message out and to, um, uh, reflect in a culturally appropriate manner, uh, how those tools can be used as we have done for probably the last 200 or 300 years.
[39:56.160 --> 40:01.020] [SPEAKER_11]: Can you give us some examples of how social media was used in a positive way?
[40:03.600 --> 40:11.560] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, early on, this movement was actually begun by the Indigenous Youth Council.
[40:12.440 --> 40:41.560] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were able to get the message out early about what was the danger that this pipeline posed, not just to the local land, but as well as to an entire watershed that stretched across a water source for 18 million people, and how cultural relevance of protecting Mother Earth,
[40:41.720 --> 41:03.360] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as our sacred sites, our burial sites, they were able to keep the into these primary issues in a way that set the stage for a historic gathering of Indigenous peoples here in North Dakota.
[41:03.740 --> 41:05.780] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that was definitely communicated.
[41:06.000 --> 41:33.700] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that's been so powerful, the reverence and the religious seriousness of protecting habitats and natural resources, that I don't think has ever been so clear as it was when people were starting to read about this on social media and really wrap their heads around just how important this is and the intersection of a lot of issues that impact so many people.
[41:34.420 --> 41:53.840] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and I think use of the tools available, the technological tools like social media has been been especially vital to this event, because I think it was the viral videos that were starting to come out of the protests of abuse by authorities, and of the information about why this is not a good thing.
[41:54.280 --> 42:00.540] [SPEAKER_09]: It was that that I think forced the mainstream media and more media outlets to pay attention and start reporting on this.
[42:01.600 --> 42:15.520] [SPEAKER_11]: John or Alicia, either one of you, can you tell us maybe what some of the biggest technological challenges you've faced in this whole episode over the last few months?
[42:19.180 --> 42:20.100] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[42:20.100 --> 42:32.100] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've had twin technological challenges of culture slash politics and just the terrain itself.
[42:33.160 --> 42:49.760] [SPEAKER_00]: So every single step along the way, I have to make sure that, you know, all the members of the tribe and the camp council and the camp leadership, like everybody's in line with what we're doing, and they're all okay with it, and I'm not making anybody mad.
[42:50.800 --> 42:56.680] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually like a huge technical challenge that people don't think about.
[42:56.780 --> 43:21.360] [SPEAKER_00]: But the terrain here is such that the camp is in this sort of bowl, and to get telephone service or Internet service or anything else to that bowl, we had to shoot everything up to the top of a hill that was outside of camp and then shoot it down into camp.
[43:22.840 --> 43:27.440] [SPEAKER_00]: So that hill is on private property.
[43:27.980 --> 43:31.120] [SPEAKER_00]: We had to get permission to get onto that private property.
[43:31.120 --> 43:32.160] [SPEAKER_00]: It's on the reservation.
[43:33.700 --> 43:41.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, once we got all of all of the provisions and everybody happy, by the way, the hill also happens to be a sacred location.
[43:41.660 --> 43:55.200] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we were instructed that when we went up there to do anything on the telecommunications tower that we built there, that we should make offerings of tobacco when we went up there.
[43:55.340 --> 44:00.500] [SPEAKER_00]: So like there was that whole process of learning and being respectful.
[44:00.860 --> 44:08.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we took what had been a broken down windmill and turned it into a communications tower.
[44:09.280 --> 44:17.840] [SPEAKER_00]: There are some pictures on the Geeks Without Bounds website and also on our Facebook of our communications tower.
[44:18.080 --> 44:20.060] [SPEAKER_00]: And wow, it's a hack.
[44:20.280 --> 44:21.080] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a hack.
[44:21.080 --> 44:21.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[44:22.760 --> 44:27.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Making that thing work was amazingly difficult.
[44:28.300 --> 44:38.220] [SPEAKER_00]: What by any stretch of the imagination should have been a week's worth of work took so much longer than that.
[44:38.400 --> 44:43.400] [SPEAKER_00]: And other people who came in, volunteers who came in to assist, I had troubles with the solar.
[44:43.940 --> 44:49.540] [SPEAKER_00]: The solar guy who came up to fix, you know, that clearly I had messed up the solar, right?
[44:49.540 --> 44:51.160] [SPEAKER_00]: I was sure that I had messed up the solar.
[44:51.380 --> 44:56.180] [SPEAKER_00]: He came up, he looked at everything, he couldn't figure out what was wrong, and finally found the problem.
[44:56.320 --> 44:57.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like something really stupid.
[44:59.300 --> 45:07.880] [SPEAKER_00]: It was actually a fuse that neither of us had actually even found in the system until after we'd like gone through the entire thing with a fine tooth comb.
[45:09.000 --> 45:12.940] [SPEAKER_00]: There were like little things like that just built up.
[45:13.200 --> 45:20.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, we had, uh, two PoE switches that, um, were actually the wrong voltage.
[45:21.060 --> 45:22.500] [SPEAKER_00]: They were sent to us.
[45:22.660 --> 45:25.140] [SPEAKER_00]: They told us this always works with ubiquity dishes.
[45:25.320 --> 45:26.160] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be great.
[45:26.380 --> 45:27.300] [SPEAKER_00]: It'll be wonderful.
[45:27.720 --> 45:28.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's all the specs.
[45:28.840 --> 45:29.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's how you set it up.
[45:29.880 --> 45:30.520] [SPEAKER_00]: I set it up.
[45:30.640 --> 45:31.820] [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't work.
[45:32.180 --> 45:38.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, after several days, I was sure that, you know, this is proof that I'm an imposter.
[45:38.480 --> 45:40.180] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't make this system work.
[45:40.720 --> 45:46.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, guys, you know, three other network guys showed up to camp on the same day and I'm like, okay, we'll get in your van.
[45:47.120 --> 45:48.500] [SPEAKER_00]: You're coming with me up to the hop hill.
[45:48.800 --> 45:51.960] [SPEAKER_00]: We get up there, they look at it and they go, it's broken.
[45:51.980 --> 45:53.580] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, no, no, it's not broken.
[45:53.600 --> 45:55.200] [SPEAKER_00]: We just haven't figured out how to make it work.
[45:55.300 --> 45:56.500] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, no, it's broken.
[45:58.100 --> 46:00.680] [SPEAKER_00]: We had to send that one back and get a new one in.
[46:00.780 --> 46:05.420] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the meantime, we ended up like hacking that system even more.
[46:05.620 --> 46:08.920] [SPEAKER_00]: We put in like extra, um, batteries.
[46:09.160 --> 46:14.340] [SPEAKER_00]: And for a while we had it on a generator, which we had to go up every four hours to put more gasoline into.
[46:14.560 --> 46:17.060] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it was, uh, man, that was a mess.
[46:17.200 --> 46:19.840] [SPEAKER_00]: That hop hill, that will go down in history.
[46:21.020 --> 46:25.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, these, these are things, uh, that, that do remind me of what goes on at hacker camps.
[46:26.000 --> 46:32.020] [SPEAKER_11]: But like you said, it's very different because, uh, first of all, we don't have hacker camps in the bitter cold in the middle of winter.
[46:32.220 --> 46:38.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, generally we don't have police that are, uh, that are spraying us with water cannons and all kinds of other horrible things.
[46:39.260 --> 46:42.740] [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, honestly, uh, we're there to have fun and learn.
[46:42.780 --> 46:46.360] [SPEAKER_11]: And, and what you guys are doing is miles above that.
[46:46.480 --> 46:49.300] [SPEAKER_11]: Just what you're, what you're learning, the respect that you're showing.
[46:49.520 --> 46:51.540] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I'm in, I'm in total awe of that.
[46:52.100 --> 47:01.240] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and now I I've, I've heard rumors that, uh, there's some kind of a radio station that you guys are either, uh, already, uh, operating or are trying to put together for the entire camp.
[47:01.320 --> 47:01.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Is that true?
[47:03.640 --> 47:05.740] [SPEAKER_00]: So there is a radio station.
[47:06.200 --> 47:11.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I, I feel stupid because I don't actually know what Govinda's last name is.
[47:11.740 --> 47:12.600] [SPEAKER_00]: He's just Govinda.
[47:13.040 --> 47:24.300] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, there's a guy named Govinda who, um, often runs his radio station, uh, in, in Navajo on the Navajo nation under a Navajo license.
[47:24.300 --> 47:27.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's up at Oceti Shacoin.
[47:27.740 --> 47:31.800] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that it's at 87.9 Spirit Radio.
[47:32.200 --> 47:34.660] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and he's up there broadcasting.
[47:35.260 --> 47:39.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, he broadcasts what's happening down at the Sacred Fire.
[47:40.320 --> 47:45.040] [SPEAKER_00]: He broadcasts, um, when there's, uh, big, important meetings at the Dome.
[47:45.420 --> 47:53.560] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, he, he broadcasts those things and he also has, like, chats with people, uh, up in his radio van.
[47:54.380 --> 47:58.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and we're hopefully going to get him right now.
[47:59.100 --> 48:09.580] [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't have, uh, a solid Internet connection to his van, but, um, I just got a text message about an hour ago saying that another pair of Nanos has shown up.
[48:09.700 --> 48:18.800] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll be able to point an Internet connection, uh, to his van so that he'll be able to broadcast on the net as well.
[48:19.900 --> 48:23.700] [SPEAKER_00]: So then the rest of you will be able to hear what's happening at camp as well.
[48:24.500 --> 48:24.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[48:25.060 --> 48:29.480] [SPEAKER_11]: And maybe we can, uh, listen on tune in or something outside the camp and hear what's going on.
[48:31.080 --> 48:31.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[48:31.720 --> 48:34.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Once, once it's on the net, you'll be able to hear it from outside the camp.
[48:34.980 --> 48:42.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I'll make sure to like send you a text message or an email, um, when he's up on the net so you can hear it and tune in from outside.
[48:42.980 --> 48:43.680] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[48:43.960 --> 48:44.600] [SPEAKER_08]: Please do share.
[48:44.940 --> 49:03.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, we, we, uh, like so many other people are watching this very, very close, very closely and, um, are with you, uh, if not physically, definitely spiritually and, um, and share the, the, the, uh, ingenuity and, and hacks that, that are leading to getting the story out on the subject though of physically being there.
[49:04.020 --> 49:11.720] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, now is the official word that we don't want more people to go there that we're kind of in a holding pattern until we see what happens in January?
[49:15.800 --> 49:26.020] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, the official word is, uh, this is an extraordinary cold, cold time here in North Dakota.
[49:26.640 --> 49:39.560] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, if people can, and if people want to, uh, return home, uh, to their families where they'll be safe and warm, uh, we encourage them to do that.
[49:40.120 --> 49:53.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, on the other hand, we are also, uh, still, uh, open to people, our allies who want to come here and, uh, stand in solidarity with us and support us.
[49:53.640 --> 49:57.680] [SPEAKER_02]: We do ask that they understand where they are coming.
[49:58.040 --> 49:59.760] [SPEAKER_02]: This is North Dakota.
[50:00.280 --> 50:04.540] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, not a winter gear is not going to be adequate.
[50:05.040 --> 50:19.680] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, you should be kitted out with full Arctic gear, uh, exposed skin in these conditions that we're experiencing here just tonight, uh, can result in frostbite in a matter of two minutes.
[50:20.200 --> 50:48.300] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and if you're also going to come here, be prepared to contribute in a meaningful way to the camp, either chopping wood or vegetables in the kitchen, or, uh, in some way realizing that we are, uh, doing things in a very, very difficult and challenging environment and that everything that we do takes more time.
[50:48.940 --> 51:05.920] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, we are, we are encouraging people to remain safe, uh, and if they are not prepared, if all they came with was summer tents and light gear, that they might think about, uh, returning home or heading to a warmer clime.
[51:06.120 --> 51:18.580] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, if you are here for the duration, uh, please be self-sufficient, self-contained, and, uh, willing to contribute, uh, uh, in a, uh, positive way.
[51:21.780 --> 51:22.220] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[51:22.360 --> 51:22.520] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[51:22.560 --> 51:24.160] [SPEAKER_11]: I, I, I get the gist of that.
[51:24.320 --> 51:35.720] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, for those people though, that, um, that, um, that aren't able to make it out there, uh, physically, uh, what can they do from the comfort of their home, wherever they are in the world to, to help you guys out?
[51:37.640 --> 51:39.620] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, check out our website.
[51:39.980 --> 51:43.940] [SPEAKER_02]: That's, uh, chedishakowicamp.org.
[51:44.400 --> 52:03.440] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we do have, uh, some pages where we list some suggested ways that they can support the camp from, uh, whatever locale they're in, uh, with the, uh, upcoming change in administration, as well as change in the Senate and Congress.
[52:03.800 --> 52:22.460] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we will like people to help support us by, uh, getting a message to their local politicians so that we might, uh, have, uh, that support going into and through the next coming year.
[52:23.120 --> 52:24.660] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, John, we're having a little bit of trouble hearing you.
[52:24.740 --> 52:28.160] [SPEAKER_11]: Leisha, do you, do you know the website that, uh, he was, uh, referencing?
[52:28.460 --> 52:29.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Can you, can you spell it for us?
[52:31.260 --> 52:35.480] [SPEAKER_00]: The website is ochedishakowicamp.org.
[52:35.480 --> 52:39.420] [SPEAKER_00]: That's O-C-E-T-I-S-A.
[52:39.420 --> 52:46.760] [SPEAKER_00]: K-O-W-I-N-C-A-M-P dot O-R-G.
[52:47.440 --> 53:09.020] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, there's lists of things that you can do that range from, um, you know, reaching out to government officials, um, you know, calling, writing letters, emails, uh, you know, all of that to, um, when there's specific, uh, material needs, what those material needs are,
[53:09.280 --> 53:19.200] [SPEAKER_00]: um, if there's any kind of campaign that's going out, um, that's getting shared through the ochedishakowincamp, um, .org website.
[53:19.740 --> 53:31.380] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and also for people that are on Facebook, um, there is an ochedishakowincamp, uh, organizational page on Facebook that you can find a lot of information.
[53:32.040 --> 53:36.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and we do appreciate having those things shared onwards as well.
[53:37.360 --> 53:37.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Um.
[53:38.780 --> 53:42.260] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, I know, Alicia, you've been involved with, uh, Geeks Without Bounds.
[53:42.380 --> 53:47.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Can you tell us something about, uh, what Geeks Without Bounds does and how people can get involved with that?
[53:49.300 --> 53:50.260] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[53:50.740 --> 53:56.420] [SPEAKER_00]: So Geeks Without Bounds is, uh, Washington State-based nonprofit organization.
[53:56.420 --> 54:00.900] [SPEAKER_00]: We support humanitarian open-source technology.
[54:01.320 --> 54:15.640] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so we, we work with, uh, communities and nonprofit organizations and sometimes governmental agencies or UN agencies on specific technology challenges that they may have.
[54:15.840 --> 54:39.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, we bring together, um, subject matter experts, uh, and technologists and engineers of various stripes to, you know, uh, take the challenge and figure out how to come up with a solution that is, um, you know, as much as possible an open-source solution,
[54:39.320 --> 54:40.500] [SPEAKER_00]: a replicable solution.
[54:40.820 --> 54:59.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then when there are, you know, promising solutions that work in one place, we help, uh, the project team to figure out how they can become sustainable so that we can spread that, um, knowledge to other communities that need the same thing.
[55:00.360 --> 55:14.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so we run hackathons through Random Hacks of Kindness, um, and, um, and, um, how you can get involved.
[55:15.220 --> 55:28.640] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, we have a website, cwob.org, uh, and you can sign up for the newsletter, uh, you can volunteer to help on, you know, any number of projects.
[55:28.640 --> 55:34.500] [SPEAKER_00]: We put out, we put out calls for volunteers, uh, through our newsletter fairly frequently.
[55:34.900 --> 55:53.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, also, you know, if you have, uh, a community of, uh, hackers and makers that like doing hackathons that actually make something that really works in the end, uh, Random Hacks of Kindness is a global hackathon event.
[55:54.180 --> 55:59.440] [SPEAKER_00]: It happens the first weekend in December and the first weekend in June every year.
[56:00.060 --> 56:13.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, the, the projects that come out of Random Hacks of Kindness, uh, are, are given support, uh, lots of different types of support to become actual sustainable projects.
[56:13.940 --> 56:26.640] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and also at those hackathons, we take existing open-source humanitarian projects and, you know, add feature requests so that you can spend a weekend where you're not just competing for some prize.
[56:26.800 --> 56:33.120] [SPEAKER_00]: What you're doing is spending a weekend volunteering your time for a cause that you care about.
[56:33.780 --> 56:36.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so those are the best ways to get involved.
[56:37.220 --> 56:41.680] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, Leisha Sterling and, and John Bigelow, I want to thank you so much for being on the show tonight.
[56:41.740 --> 56:44.560] [SPEAKER_11]: And also thank you for what you're doing out there in the wilds of North Dakota.
[56:44.800 --> 56:50.260] [SPEAKER_11]: You're true heroes and the whole world is watching what you're up to and, and we're going to be following in the weeks ahead.
[56:50.960 --> 56:51.320] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[56:51.400 --> 56:52.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you very much for sharing with us.
[56:53.000 --> 56:53.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
[56:54.200 --> 56:54.560] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[56:55.040 --> 56:55.680] [SPEAKER_11]: Stay warm.
[56:57.120 --> 56:57.600] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[56:57.640 --> 56:58.680] [SPEAKER_11]: We'll, we'll be in touch again.
[56:58.880 --> 57:01.620] [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, that's going to pretty much do it for us here tonight.
[57:01.820 --> 57:02.300] [SPEAKER_11]: What do you think?
[57:02.500 --> 57:04.880] [SPEAKER_09]: I think this is why the hackers are the person of the year.
[57:05.100 --> 57:05.920] [SPEAKER_11]: I think so.
[57:06.360 --> 57:08.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Wouldn't it be nice if Time Magazine focused on that?
[57:08.560 --> 57:10.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Because that is truly, uh, the spirit.
[57:11.140 --> 57:12.080] [SPEAKER_11]: It goes beyond hacking.
[57:12.240 --> 57:13.480] [SPEAKER_11]: This is, this is humanity.
[57:13.720 --> 57:20.760] [SPEAKER_11]: This is, um, just opening ourselves up to, to other cultures and to, uh, to what is right and standing in the face of adversity.
[57:20.880 --> 57:22.380] [SPEAKER_11]: I really, I'm blown away by that.
[57:22.460 --> 57:25.240] [SPEAKER_08]: And what's possible when we work, work together towards something.
[57:25.440 --> 57:27.780] [SPEAKER_08]: And I encourage everybody listening, do a little research.
[57:28.020 --> 57:32.240] [SPEAKER_08]: I guarantee you there's something about this story that, uh, intersects or impacts your life.
[57:32.440 --> 57:33.680] [SPEAKER_08]: So check it out.
[57:34.100 --> 57:34.520] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[57:34.780 --> 57:36.720] [SPEAKER_11]: oth@2600.com.
[57:36.920 --> 57:37.600] [SPEAKER_11]: That's our email address.
[57:37.740 --> 57:39.100] [SPEAKER_11]: Write to us with your thoughts and feelings.
[57:39.340 --> 57:40.580] [SPEAKER_11]: We'll see you again next week.
[57:40.720 --> 57:40.880] [SPEAKER_11]: Good night.
[57:41.400 --> 57:41.400] Done.
[57:41.920 --> 57:43.940] [SPEAKER_07]: But I can't wait.
[57:44.240 --> 57:46.260] [SPEAKER_07]: I can't wait.
[57:46.520 --> 57:47.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Then it was bleak.
[57:47.640 --> 57:48.560] [SPEAKER_07]: Trump hit his peak.
[57:49.000 --> 57:50.480] [SPEAKER_07]: WikiLeaks debt written.
[57:50.740 --> 57:51.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Miss president.
[57:51.580 --> 57:55.160] [SPEAKER_07]: She lost it, but the vote was sitting at two mil.
[57:55.360 --> 57:57.060] [SPEAKER_07]: She was labeled a crook.
[57:57.140 --> 57:58.180] [SPEAKER_07]: I can't look.
[57:58.420 --> 58:00.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Now Trump is our president.
[58:00.060 --> 58:01.740] [SPEAKER_07]: The country is shook.
[58:02.360 --> 58:03.700] [SPEAKER_07]: Gotta see Moana.
[58:03.900 --> 58:06.000] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm singing with a Chewbacca mom.
[58:06.160 --> 58:06.800] [SPEAKER_07]: Hold the door.
[58:06.820 --> 58:07.860] [SPEAKER_07]: I bought some Amazon.
[58:08.500 --> 58:09.600] [SPEAKER_07]: Now that vine has gone.
[58:09.840 --> 58:12.740] [SPEAKER_07]: A voice saying, damn, Daniel, Castro is dead.
[58:12.860 --> 58:16.520] [SPEAKER_07]: We started retweeting and eating bagels made with rainbow bread.
[58:16.760 --> 58:18.520] [SPEAKER_07]: You gotta put up a fence or two.
[58:18.740 --> 58:19.820] [SPEAKER_07]: Is that Orlando blue?
[58:19.960 --> 58:21.580] [SPEAKER_07]: More people are dead or destitute.
[58:21.740 --> 58:23.460] [SPEAKER_07]: We gotta amend the constitution.
[58:23.700 --> 58:24.960] [SPEAKER_07]: Started yippin'.
[58:24.960 --> 58:27.360] [SPEAKER_07]: Trippin' over Miss Universe names.
[58:27.640 --> 58:30.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Pen, Pineapple, Apple Pen, and Aneko Atsume.
[58:31.100 --> 58:32.620] [SPEAKER_07]: Scammin' on every story.
[58:32.880 --> 58:34.480] [SPEAKER_07]: So read my Instagram's on.
[58:34.740 --> 58:35.880] [SPEAKER_07]: Penning in the cabinet.
[58:36.080 --> 58:37.940] [SPEAKER_07]: No one knows what he plans on.
[58:38.000 --> 58:39.360] [SPEAKER_07]: So go use your voice.
[58:39.600 --> 58:41.140] [SPEAKER_07]: Time to take a new stand.
[58:41.460 --> 58:44.720] [SPEAKER_07]: This new year, you must do what you can.
[58:45.100 --> 58:55.240] [SPEAKER_07]: This new year, you must do what you can.
[58:55.240 --> 58:57.580] [SPEAKER_07]: and a new year, you must do what you can.
[58:57.580 --> 58:57.920] [SPEAKER_07]: New year, you must do what you can do.
[58:57.920 --> 58:58.940] [SPEAKER_07]: I can't wait.
[59:00.000 --> 59:01.080] [SPEAKER_07]: 2016's over now.
[59:01.160 --> 59:04.660] [SPEAKER_07]: We are waiting for it to be through.
[59:04.780 --> 59:05.960] [SPEAKER_07]: We are waiting for it to be through.
[59:06.020 --> 59:07.620] [SPEAKER_07]: You can get out of jail.
[59:07.800 --> 59:11.440] [SPEAKER_07]: Why are all all the Oscars so wide?
[59:12.920 --> 59:12.980] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[59:13.880 --> 59:15.160] [SPEAKER_07]: 2016's over now.
[59:16.380 --> 59:19.060] [SPEAKER_07]: It's America season 2.
[59:19.920 --> 59:22.660] [SPEAKER_07]: Is Snyder the one to blame?
[59:23.160 --> 59:25.080] [SPEAKER_07]: Who would think they would win?
[59:25.080 --> 59:33.820] [SPEAKER_07]: In the game, the world has finally gone insane, oh.
[59:34.580 --> 59:36.320] [SPEAKER_07]: The final five, they won it all.
[59:36.560 --> 59:37.700] [SPEAKER_07]: Ignore Ryan Lochte.
[59:38.200 --> 59:41.240] [SPEAKER_07]: 21 pilots telling me my face is blurry.
[59:41.540 --> 59:43.200] [SPEAKER_07]: The kids are all on Musically.
[59:43.340 --> 59:44.780] [SPEAKER_07]: I bought a kit from Kylie.
[59:45.160 --> 59:46.860] [SPEAKER_07]: You Venmo me.
[59:47.160 --> 59:48.300] [SPEAKER_07]: Be reality.
[59:48.780 --> 59:50.280] [SPEAKER_07]: I trust nobody.
[59:50.540 --> 59:51.780] [SPEAKER_07]: Can't we just agree?
[59:52.040 --> 59:52.560] [SPEAKER_07]: And me?
[59:52.560 --> 59:55.400] [SPEAKER_07]: Just don't grab my...
[59:55.400 --> 59:58.720] [SPEAKER_07]: There's only one more month until it's done.
[59:59.120 --> 01:00:01.160] [SPEAKER_07]: And I can't wait.
[01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:03.720] [SPEAKER_07]: We made it somehow.
[01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:05.880] [SPEAKER_07]: 2016's over now.
[01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:08.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Any questions?