Off The Hook - 2017-05-31

[00:00.810 --> 00:03.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, two lucky people will be able to perform with us.
[00:04.070 --> 00:05.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's only $10.
[00:05.830 --> 00:06.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: What can be better?
[00:06.650 --> 00:10.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: $10 for a live taping of a show, some stand-up, some storytelling, and karaoke.
[00:15.730 --> 00:20.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you are listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:21.010 --> 00:23.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: The time is just about 8 o'clock.
[00:23.630 --> 00:25.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Time, once again, for Off The Hook.
[00:49.800 --> 00:55.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: And a very
[02:15.140 --> 02:15.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: good evening to everybody.
[02:15.880 --> 02:17.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:17.660 --> 02:21.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Rob T. Firefly.
[02:21.840 --> 02:22.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[02:22.560 --> 02:22.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kyle.
[02:23.200 --> 02:24.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: No lie, I'm here.
[02:24.460 --> 02:24.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: You are.
[02:25.140 --> 02:25.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alex.
[02:26.200 --> 02:26.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello again.
[02:26.940 --> 02:27.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Voltaire.
[02:27.760 --> 02:28.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey.
[02:29.040 --> 02:34.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is our final night of the spring WBAI fundraiser.
[02:35.000 --> 02:37.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to thank everybody who called in last week.
[02:37.900 --> 02:42.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we raised over $2,000 in one hour last week.
[02:42.560 --> 02:44.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's great.
[02:44.420 --> 02:45.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing.
[02:45.900 --> 02:46.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you to our listeners.
[02:46.820 --> 02:50.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Alex, for donating that amazing premium of legal time.
[02:51.180 --> 02:52.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Only a pleasure.
[02:52.160 --> 02:54.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I've already been contacted by several people.
[02:54.860 --> 02:58.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it sounds like we have some interesting work ahead of us.
[02:58.540 --> 02:58.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[02:58.940 --> 02:59.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[02:59.840 --> 03:03.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, you can't tell us because you're legally bound not to do that.
[03:03.500 --> 03:12.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's just an example of some of the imaginative premiums that we have access to sometimes here on this radio station.
[03:12.760 --> 03:14.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everything we were offering last week is gone.
[03:14.840 --> 03:16.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: We weren't kidding, folks.
[03:16.780 --> 03:19.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We said, you know, you got to pledge now or it's going to be gone.
[03:19.420 --> 03:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: The hacker grab bag, that's gone.
[03:20.880 --> 03:24.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: The legal consultations, those are gone.
[03:24.140 --> 03:26.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we do have something else tonight that we'll be offering.
[03:26.320 --> 03:27.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be getting into that in just a moment.
[03:28.000 --> 03:33.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to go over some news items because, you know, when we're not asking for money, we do occasionally do that.
[03:35.040 --> 03:38.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, well, first of all, are you guys all packed, ready to go?
[03:38.360 --> 03:40.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we've got a journey ahead of us.
[03:41.880 --> 03:46.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're apparently separating from the rest of the planet and going into deep space.
[03:47.260 --> 03:58.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because I didn't really get a chance to listen to the radio this morning, but what I heard was that Trump is basically going to do something that distances us from the rest of the world, right?
[03:59.000 --> 04:03.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we will be separating from Europe, from Asia, from...
[04:03.260 --> 04:06.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that can only mean a voyage into deep space, right?
[04:08.080 --> 04:09.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is this Convete-related?
[04:09.980 --> 04:10.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: It might be.
[04:10.700 --> 04:12.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: It might be Convete-related, absolutely.
[04:12.120 --> 04:12.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[04:12.460 --> 04:20.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's the word that Donald Trump sent us as kind of like a wake-up call for the sleeper agents out there.
[04:20.500 --> 04:29.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: What you're cruelly joking about is the United States not participating in the Paris Accord, which is the climate agreement that the rest of the world decided would be a good idea.
[04:29.460 --> 04:36.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And actually, the United States was helping sort of spearhead, but now we're not going to participate.
[04:36.740 --> 04:39.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, you just kind of took all the fun out of it.
[04:39.380 --> 04:41.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was cruelly joking about this.
[04:41.140 --> 04:42.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, get used to that.
[04:43.260 --> 04:44.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, fine.
[04:44.340 --> 04:45.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be doom and gloom then.
[04:46.140 --> 04:46.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[04:46.960 --> 04:48.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: I need to be cheery today, huh?
[04:48.940 --> 04:50.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: No climate change can be fun.
[04:51.260 --> 04:52.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: It can be...
[04:53.500 --> 04:55.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or no to climate change accords.
[04:55.900 --> 04:57.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we don't know this is going to happen yet.
[04:57.800 --> 05:00.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's widely speculated that it will.
[05:00.280 --> 05:08.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: But what I find interesting is that corporate America is actually for combating climate change.
[05:08.360 --> 05:10.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wall Street is separating from Donald Trump on this.
[05:10.660 --> 05:17.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you read some news stories about this, that is something that I think might strike some people by surprise.
[05:17.340 --> 05:17.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's surprising me.
[05:18.320 --> 05:23.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it could actually hurt the Trump regime more than he was expecting.
[05:23.980 --> 05:30.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, major multinational oil companies are actually encouraging the United States to participate in this and not step away from it.
[05:30.360 --> 05:31.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to say that again.
[05:31.820 --> 05:35.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Major multinational oil companies are encouraging the U.S.
[05:35.860 --> 05:37.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: to participate in this.
[05:37.000 --> 05:42.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Should have prefaced that with if you're driving, don't swerve because, yes, it's true.
[05:42.420 --> 05:43.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
[05:43.260 --> 05:46.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Major oil corporations are more progressive than our president.
[05:47.280 --> 05:51.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Probably begrudgingly, you know, behind closed doors, it's probably begrudging participation.
[05:51.520 --> 06:02.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they know that there would be a major incongruence with the ideas and beliefs of the rest of the world if they were to follow this leadership in that way.
[06:02.180 --> 06:06.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: And yet the leadership is not interested.
[06:06.220 --> 06:06.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: Walter?
[06:06.680 --> 06:19.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the motive behind the oil companies is not some wonderful progressive causes, more realpolitik thing where they know that the Paris climate accord is actually non-binding and they want to keep it.
[06:19.520 --> 06:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Fine, but I'll take that, you know.
[06:20.920 --> 06:22.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be...
[06:22.040 --> 06:27.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't have to be a bunch of environmentalists as long as they get the job done, even if it's for their own self-interest.
[06:27.620 --> 06:28.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course it's for that.
[06:28.420 --> 06:34.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, Trump is so ignorant that he doesn't even realize that this is going to hurt his bottom line in the end.
[06:35.300 --> 06:35.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what I said.
[06:36.320 --> 06:37.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.
[06:37.840 --> 06:44.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I think part of it too is that with respect to the major oil companies, these companies like consistency and predictability.
[06:44.840 --> 06:50.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if the United States is out on a limb doing something crazy, they lose that sense of predictability and consistency.
[06:50.680 --> 06:53.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it becomes very difficult for them to plan accordingly.
[06:54.400 --> 06:58.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whereas for many years, they have been in compliance with this particular accord.
[06:59.280 --> 07:08.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I think this also gets to the heart of the issue with respect to Trump, which is that we don't really know what the hell he's going to do.
[07:08.360 --> 07:10.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And everything is in a state of flux.
[07:10.940 --> 07:11.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't that fun, though?
[07:11.500 --> 07:13.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you have no idea what he's going to do next.
[07:13.180 --> 07:13.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: No idea at all.
[07:14.060 --> 07:14.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's exhausting.
[07:14.320 --> 07:14.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's terrible.
[07:15.440 --> 07:16.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it really is.
[07:16.700 --> 07:17.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have no clue.
[07:17.500 --> 07:25.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everything I feel like he does is to throw us off balance, even perhaps this confefe issue early this morning.
[07:25.800 --> 07:28.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that was a trending word for a long time on Twitter.
[07:28.620 --> 07:32.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure there's more words like that coming down the pike as well.
[07:32.620 --> 07:38.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Something else, though, that people have been talking about recently, and that's the potential laptop ban on airplanes.
[07:39.220 --> 07:45.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there was talk about this from certain Muslim countries where we didn't trust their security methods or something.
[07:46.640 --> 07:55.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And now there has been talk about it being extended to European airlines and then to American airlines heading to Europe.
[07:56.840 --> 08:06.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I understand, Rob, recently, in the last day or so, they have said more or less that they're not going to go ahead with this, at least for now.
[08:06.060 --> 08:09.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's kind of still up in the air, literally.
[08:09.940 --> 08:10.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not yet.
[08:11.000 --> 08:16.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: According to the latest update on the site Politico, a European commission official said no ban.
[08:17.040 --> 08:20.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: After a conference call between the U.S.
[08:20.340 --> 08:28.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly and two of his European counterparts, both sides have agreed to intensify technical talks and try to find a common solution.
[08:28.220 --> 08:30.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, technical talk intensifies.
[08:30.360 --> 08:36.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in a statement, the DHS said that Kelly and the Europeans agreed on the need to raise the bar for aviation security.
[08:37.020 --> 08:37.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: He will...
[08:37.920 --> 08:47.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Secretary Kelly will implement any and all measures necessary to secure commercial aircraft, including prohibiting large electronics from the passenger's cabin, if the intelligence and threat level warrant it.
[08:47.960 --> 08:49.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: So everything is still...
[08:49.520 --> 08:51.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Large electronics meaning anything bigger than a cell phone.
[08:51.940 --> 08:53.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would guess that's a fair assumption.
[08:53.980 --> 08:56.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: To me, large electronics is a washing machine.
[08:56.480 --> 08:59.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's something, you know, something that really could, you know, cause problems.
[08:59.960 --> 09:05.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: But a laptop, you know, a Kindle, these are the things that we're supposedly going to be banning now.
[09:05.680 --> 09:07.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have to wonder, what is it that they're reading?
[09:07.840 --> 09:09.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: What is it they think is going on?
[09:09.720 --> 09:15.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a device, right, you have to take it out of your damn bag anyway when you go through TSA, and they swab it, they look at it.
[09:15.920 --> 09:17.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are you telling me that I can carry on a bomb?
[09:18.220 --> 09:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're not going to be able to tell after doing that that it's a bomb.
[09:20.760 --> 09:27.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, after looking it over directly and examining it, there's still a chance this thing could blow up.
[09:27.840 --> 09:30.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the security that we're facing here.
[09:30.500 --> 09:37.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think maybe this has more to do with concern over hacking going on.
[09:37.720 --> 09:41.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thinking that maybe somebody is going to access something on the airplane.
[09:41.780 --> 09:43.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that what they might be talking about?
[09:44.240 --> 09:47.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, we're not getting any information about this.
[09:47.080 --> 09:50.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we have to have all kinds of wild speculation as to what is really going on.
[09:51.000 --> 09:51.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I do know this.
[09:52.060 --> 10:05.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have flights, overseas flights or domestic flights where people can't do work, where they can't use their laptops, they can't watch a film on their own machine, they can't read.
[10:06.920 --> 10:11.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and the cell phone, you have to put it in non-cell phone mode in the first place.
[10:11.020 --> 10:13.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that limits a lot of things you can do on that.
[10:14.660 --> 10:17.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be even more of a nightmare than it is already.
[10:17.460 --> 10:21.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I really think you're going to see some uprisings.
[10:21.240 --> 10:21.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Voltaire.
[10:21.720 --> 10:32.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: And today we saw a wonderful example of why this idea is so stupid, where a JetBlue flight had to make an emergency landing because a laptop that was checked in the checked baggage caught on fire.
[10:33.200 --> 10:35.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: A laptop caught on fire in a JetBlue flight?
[10:35.420 --> 10:36.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in checked baggage.
[10:37.140 --> 10:40.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay, because it was in checked baggage and nobody could deal with it.
[10:40.900 --> 10:41.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[10:41.460 --> 10:45.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the thing is, if you have to check something, won't it blow up there anyway?
[10:46.380 --> 10:47.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, if you have to...
[10:47.760 --> 10:50.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't travel with checked baggage normally, so what am I going to do?
[10:50.280 --> 10:54.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to have to check one laptop and they expect me to pay for that?
[10:54.960 --> 10:55.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not going to happen.
[10:56.120 --> 11:05.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of lithium batteries of the type used in laptops, if you store them in a depressurized area like the cargo hold, there's a chance the batteries can swell and basically ignite.
[11:05.800 --> 11:08.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas if they're in the passenger cabin with you, they're perfectly safe.
[11:08.940 --> 11:09.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Kyle?
[11:09.800 --> 11:10.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not entirely sure.
[11:10.600 --> 11:16.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think the baggage area under the plane is pressurized like the rest of the plane.
[11:17.140 --> 11:18.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the way animals can survive.
[11:18.840 --> 11:21.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there are sections that are and sections that aren't.
[11:21.640 --> 11:23.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but this is details.
[11:23.940 --> 11:29.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: But one other secondary thing, though, is that people would have to let their electronics out of their sight.
[11:29.600 --> 11:29.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[11:30.140 --> 11:31.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Which bothers me.
[11:31.280 --> 11:31.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[11:31.580 --> 11:36.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's a secondary impact of this problem.
[11:36.800 --> 11:40.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's kind of frustrating in that regard.
[11:40.540 --> 11:50.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that comes back to the point of when you're passing over a border, should you be able to keep control of your electronic devices?
[11:50.180 --> 11:55.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or should you surrender that to authorities who ask for your passwords and want to go and rummage through your files?
[11:55.720 --> 11:58.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I say, you know, under no circumstances is that acceptable.
[11:58.640 --> 12:05.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I fear that more and more people are saying, yeah, you know what, if it makes things easier and more secure, I'll give up that privacy.
[12:05.180 --> 12:12.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the TSA employees already have keys and stuff to the TSA-approved locks and all of that.
[12:12.060 --> 12:13.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: So they're already going through your luggage.
[12:13.520 --> 12:22.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's to stop them from taking your machine if, say, they decide you don't need it anymore or doing something more nefarious, technically?
[12:23.120 --> 12:26.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's all good reason to start Fun with TSA again.
[12:26.900 --> 12:28.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, our old website, Fun with TSA.
[12:28.800 --> 12:29.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I remember that.
[12:29.600 --> 12:30.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we might have let it expire.
[12:30.980 --> 12:33.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think we need to revive it.
[12:33.380 --> 12:40.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, we had all kinds of drawings of fun things people can do without access to anything that they normally have access to.
[12:41.320 --> 12:44.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it's like they're trying to come up with ways to drive us crazy.
[12:45.160 --> 13:03.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is something that's going to spark another insurrection if people, A, aren't allowed to have access to their devices on planes, and, B, they're expected to give up their fundamental privacy and have people rummage through their private data.
[13:03.380 --> 13:14.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering if there are any clever ideas out there for, say, login screens on your laptop that basically give warnings to TSA people who might be...
[13:14.320 --> 13:20.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: or Homeland Security people who might be trying to access your info without your permission.
[13:20.600 --> 13:35.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I say, if they're going to be trying to hack into our machines, they should be subjected to all the abuse that we can muster in however, whatever form we decide is appropriate.
[13:36.240 --> 13:48.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I'm curious about self-destruct sequences, whether they're real or not, and just anything that will cause a panic in their eyes as they are trying to violate your privacy.
[13:48.020 --> 13:53.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, when somebody does that, I'm sorry, you have the right to defend yourself.
[13:53.640 --> 13:57.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we should not take this without strong opposition.
[13:57.720 --> 13:57.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alex.
[13:58.320 --> 14:17.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wasn't this part of the conversation, excuse me, that Trump supposedly had with Kislyak in the Oval Office as well, identifying the potential source or at least the geographical location from which this particular intelligence about laptop explosives was derived.
[14:17.260 --> 14:20.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's, you know, like it's a really dangerous situation.
[14:20.580 --> 14:25.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody wants to be in an airliner that is under attack by a laptop.
[14:25.780 --> 14:26.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we get it.
[14:26.560 --> 14:29.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: But really the whole thing is ridiculous.
[14:29.380 --> 14:40.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: To go back to what Rob said, excuse me, which was that they're thinking about technical means, about, you know, how to identify what's happening here.
[14:40.960 --> 14:45.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd love to know a little bit more about what the actual threat is.
[14:45.260 --> 14:53.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because I feel like they may not be, excuse me, for God's sakes, the best brains to be thinking about this.
[14:53.820 --> 15:04.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like our community would probably think about this in a completely different manner than, let's say, Department of Homeland Security or the European Commission, for God's sakes.
[15:05.020 --> 15:09.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's just a bunch of bureaucrats sitting in Brussels thinking about explosives on planes.
[15:09.760 --> 15:12.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't really seem like they've got the brightest bulbs over there.
[15:13.920 --> 15:24.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But another point that I think is really important is when you relinquish control of these particular devices, let's say on an international flight, you're doing so for an extended period of time.
[15:25.120 --> 15:39.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: If there was some sort of nefarious purpose to encourage people to do this, that would be a very sufficient amount of time, let's say, even if you're just flying from New York to London, for somebody to completely image your laptop, to take a complete forensic image of it.
[15:39.300 --> 15:42.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you're flying to Hong Kong, they could do it 10 separate times.
[15:42.520 --> 15:47.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, this is an issue that's not just inherent to airports.
[15:48.200 --> 15:53.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Think about what happens if you go into federal court as a civilian, as a non-attorney.
[15:53.780 --> 15:59.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to surrender your phone to the federal marshals whenever you go into court.
[15:59.700 --> 16:01.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have the right to go into federal court.
[16:01.920 --> 16:04.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's been this way for a really long time.
[16:04.140 --> 16:04.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's true.
[16:04.580 --> 16:06.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to go and give it away to the federal marshals.
[16:06.860 --> 16:09.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they put it in a little, you know, cubby hole.
[16:09.660 --> 16:10.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not blocked.
[16:10.760 --> 16:12.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: They ask you to shut your phone off.
[16:12.360 --> 16:24.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if you're, let's say, a criminal defendant and you're out on bail and you go into federal court and then you have to hand your phone in to federal marshals when you go inside that courtroom, that would give me some significant pause.
[16:25.020 --> 16:28.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if my client had to do that, it would give me significant pause, too.
[16:29.020 --> 16:31.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd encourage him not to bring his phone to court.
[16:31.920 --> 16:36.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I mean, we see this in the federal arena in more than one instance.
[16:36.860 --> 16:37.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not just planes.
[16:37.760 --> 16:41.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's anything that has to do with the federal government to an extent.
[16:41.480 --> 16:44.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're extremely cautious about our devices and what we can do with them.
[16:44.960 --> 16:47.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: What are the rules about laptops in federal court?
[16:47.820 --> 16:50.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: You cannot bring them in unless you are an attorney.
[16:51.040 --> 16:53.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And not all attorneys can bring them in.
[16:53.640 --> 16:59.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need to have, for instance, when it comes to the SDNY or the Southern District of New York, the U.S.
[16:59.500 --> 17:07.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Federal District Court for the Southern District of New York in downtown Manhattan on Pearl Street, you need to have your special SDNY ID card.
[17:07.400 --> 17:12.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And to get your SDNY ID card, you need your attorney ID card, your state ID card.
[17:12.580 --> 17:19.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then you can go get a free ID card from the Southern District, at which point you would be allowed to bring in electronic devices.
[17:19.640 --> 17:20.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what's the concern here?
[17:20.680 --> 17:22.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: The concern is recording or the concern is security?
[17:22.940 --> 17:28.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think the concern is recording to a large extent, but also annoyance.
[17:29.660 --> 17:33.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think the judges want to deal with people's phones going off in courtrooms.
[17:34.160 --> 17:35.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's a big issue.
[17:35.840 --> 17:48.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But another rather interesting thing about the attorney ID card, by the way, and we're talking about security, if you have an attorney ID card, you don't have to go through the metal detector when you're going into state courts.
[17:48.980 --> 17:49.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[17:49.440 --> 17:50.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: You could just walk right through.
[17:50.600 --> 17:50.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[17:50.840 --> 17:58.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there's some sort of ridiculous, implicit trust, by virtue of the fact that you're a member of the bar, that you're not going to do anything crazy.
[17:59.000 --> 18:01.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: So an attorney can open fire in a courtroom, is what you're saying?
[18:02.740 --> 18:03.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[18:03.480 --> 18:03.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[18:03.960 --> 18:05.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a fact I didn't know.
[18:05.240 --> 18:05.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[18:06.240 --> 18:06.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[18:06.900 --> 18:07.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[18:07.140 --> 18:07.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something else to worry about.
[18:07.880 --> 18:09.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can just walk straight through.
[18:09.600 --> 18:10.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: No offense.
[18:10.000 --> 18:13.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been worried about lawyers before that, and now you're giving me something else to worry about.
[18:13.640 --> 18:15.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, Trump's lawyer is definitely somebody to worry about.
[18:16.400 --> 18:16.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[18:17.220 --> 18:19.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Listen, we have to get into some business.
[18:19.820 --> 18:22.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have to do some fundraising for the show.
[18:22.640 --> 18:28.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because while we raised $2,000 last week, this week is a clean slate.
[18:28.340 --> 18:32.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a couple of leftover items from previous weeks.
[18:32.580 --> 18:34.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have the HOPE conference keynote series.
[18:34.860 --> 18:46.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a flash drive of all the keynote addresses that have been given at the various HOPE Conferences, 11 of them, since 1994, plus a bunch of other extra bonus talks.
[18:46.560 --> 18:55.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also have The Eleventh HOPE Conference DVDs or flash drives.
[18:56.280 --> 18:59.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Call 516-620-3602.
[18:59.120 --> 19:00.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ask for either of those.
[19:00.200 --> 19:03.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a pledge of $75 will get you that.
[19:03.100 --> 19:08.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: But what we are offering tonight is, well, it's a couple of things.
[19:09.060 --> 19:13.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a book premium that I think is really of interest to hackers.
[19:13.860 --> 19:15.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's called The Car Hacker's Handbook.
[19:16.080 --> 19:17.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Kyle, hold that up to the microphone.
[19:17.560 --> 19:18.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[19:18.620 --> 19:21.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's what it sounds like when you smack it into a microphone.
[19:21.480 --> 19:24.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a guide for the penetration tester.
[19:24.160 --> 19:28.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's written by a guy named Craig Smith, who knows his stuff.
[19:28.380 --> 19:31.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's all kinds of information there.
[19:32.380 --> 19:37.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll get an understanding of computer systems, embedded software in modern vehicles.
[19:37.420 --> 19:50.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll learn about vulnerabilities and communications over the CAN bus, and between devices and systems, as well as how to intercept data and perform specific hacks to track vehicles.
[19:50.080 --> 19:54.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is a real education on how to hack cars, what it's all about.
[19:54.300 --> 20:01.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's one part of a $25 donation that we are offering at 516-620-3602.
[20:01.320 --> 20:05.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can I just add, this is a pretty in-depth book.
[20:05.700 --> 20:18.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's nearly 300 pages of really interesting detail describing systems, modern sensors, and the networks that exist in vehicles these days.
[20:18.520 --> 20:27.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: It has a lot of information about different software and different hardware tools you can use to interact with these computer systems on vehicles.
[20:28.120 --> 20:32.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it starts out with an obligatory chapter, of course, on threat modeling.
[20:32.860 --> 20:37.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: But every other chapter is a specific part of the computer systems and vehicles.
[20:37.620 --> 20:38.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is a fantastic book.
[20:38.920 --> 20:39.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's new.
[20:39.620 --> 20:40.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: It came out last year.
[20:41.060 --> 20:44.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I believe we did have a show where we spoke with the author.
[20:45.140 --> 20:52.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's a great premium from our friends at No Starch Press, who really have been big supporters of us and the station over the years.
[20:52.560 --> 20:53.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: But wait, there's more.
[20:54.340 --> 21:06.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because in addition to this book, which, by the way, retails for more than double what we're offering for tonight, which is pretty unbelievable, we are offering a second collection.
[21:06.840 --> 21:09.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Alex, can you tell us something about what this is all about?
[21:09.420 --> 21:10.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
[21:10.700 --> 21:21.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of months ago, if our listeners remember, I published an op-ed on CNN that had to deal with 1984 and Donald Trump.
[21:21.140 --> 21:28.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the article was about how you can decode Trump's actions through 1984, through the principles of 1984.
[21:28.640 --> 21:32.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was a shockingly popular article.
[21:32.140 --> 21:38.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was contacted by this really innovative publisher here in New York called Riverdale Avenue Publishing.
[21:38.420 --> 21:45.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they wanted to publish this particular book... I'm sorry, this particular essay as part of an anthology of essays.
[21:45.640 --> 21:49.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they did, in fact, publish this book with my essay inside of it.
[21:49.880 --> 21:54.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's called 1984 in the 21st Century, an Anthology of Essays, not surprisingly.
[21:54.940 --> 22:01.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a collection of really interesting thought pieces on 1984.
[22:02.040 --> 22:06.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: It includes, well, myself, of course, as an author.
[22:06.260 --> 22:23.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It includes people like David Brin, who is a renowned science fiction author, somebody who won the Hugo Award, somebody who has a PhD from UCSD, I believe, in physics, and writes a lot, really humorously, about technology and science and what it means to our life.
[22:23.120 --> 22:28.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: If there's plays about 1984 in this book, I think there's something close to possibly 20 essays.
[22:28.860 --> 22:32.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm looking through it right now, but maybe even more than that.
[22:33.060 --> 22:33.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[22:33.340 --> 22:43.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I would say it's 170 pages of really interesting, well-thought-out, extremely relevant to today's world thoughts about 1984.
[22:43.680 --> 22:56.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you like this show, and if you like 2600, you will undoubtedly understand that 1984 plays a really large role in our culture and its significance.
[22:56.440 --> 23:05.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, if I understand correctly, we are offering the Car Hacker's Handbook, in addition to this Orwellian premium that...
[23:05.360 --> 23:06.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's the official name there?
[23:06.920 --> 23:12.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's called 1984 in the 21st Century, An Anthology of Essays.
[23:12.580 --> 23:14.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a really nice-looking book.
[23:14.520 --> 23:18.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It has a scary-looking face on the front of it.
[23:18.700 --> 23:31.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like I said, you know, there's essays in here from David Brin, Matt By, Melissa Phoebus, Jay Strongman, Mike Siegel, Mark Polite, and many, many others, including my own essay, which you can find on page 28.
[23:31.860 --> 23:31.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[23:31.880 --> 23:37.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you're getting two really good books for a pledge of $25, 516-620-3602.
[23:37.200 --> 23:44.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: We should point out, since we're doing all our own shipping, that's part of the new way around here, and we've caught up with our premiums, and our listeners are happy again.
[23:45.820 --> 23:48.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because of that, we threw this in at the last minute.
[23:48.400 --> 23:51.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: The people in the pledge room have no idea what 1984 and the 20th Century.
[23:51.560 --> 23:53.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't ask about that, because they won't know about it.
[23:53.200 --> 23:54.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: They know about the Car Hacker's Handbook.
[23:54.720 --> 23:55.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is how it's listed.
[23:56.240 --> 24:00.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we guarantee we will include the 1984 and the 20th Century.
[24:00.480 --> 24:06.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: In addition, for everybody who calls, 516-620-3602 and pledges, only $25.
[24:07.080 --> 24:08.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a pretty amazing deal.
[24:08.540 --> 24:15.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think we figured, since we made $2,000 last week, that we could, you know, offer things for as low a price as possible.
[24:15.360 --> 24:17.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Really, any amount is certainly allowed.
[24:17.940 --> 24:23.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll accept any payment you can really contribute to this place.
[24:24.100 --> 24:29.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: The methods are varied, one of which would be the SMS route.
[24:29.200 --> 24:29.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah.
[24:29.660 --> 24:35.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can text WBAI to 41444.
[24:36.260 --> 24:37.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: You could also go online.
[24:38.180 --> 24:41.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: give2wbai.org.
[24:41.180 --> 24:46.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you can actually get the Car Hacker's Handbook premium package there as well.
[24:46.480 --> 24:51.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, it doesn't make any reference to the 1984 and the 20th Century because that's something we just added on ourselves.
[24:51.740 --> 24:53.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you will get that, guaranteed.
[24:54.320 --> 24:57.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: But 516-620-3602 is the phone number.
[24:57.840 --> 25:00.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we have one other thing, actually, to throw into the mix here.
[25:01.540 --> 25:05.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is something that not everybody will get.
[25:05.700 --> 25:08.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Two people will get this.
[25:08.400 --> 25:17.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, two people will get this if they want it because this is something that actually is time-sensitive and location-sensitive.
[25:17.480 --> 25:24.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a ticket to a hacker conference known as SummerCon, which is coming up really, really soon.
[25:24.620 --> 25:28.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: So what we're going to do is for the people who call...
[25:28.440 --> 25:30.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we can only offer this for people who call during this hour.
[25:30.920 --> 25:34.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can't offer it for people who call after the show and who listen on the podcast.
[25:34.420 --> 25:35.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're sorry about that.
[25:36.280 --> 25:39.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Logistically, it just is no way for us to keep track of all the people that way.
[25:39.760 --> 25:48.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you call any time between now and, say, five minutes of nine o'clock, we will see the information come in to our screen.
[25:48.260 --> 25:52.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we will be able to contact you later on, ask you if you are, in fact, interested in going to SummerCon.
[25:53.000 --> 25:55.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the first two people who say yes will get the tickets.
[25:55.660 --> 25:56.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Simple as that.
[25:57.220 --> 25:59.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[25:59.760 --> 26:06.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, you'll have to call the phone number if you want those tickets because that's the only way we get the email that tells us that you pledged.
[26:07.960 --> 26:10.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a little confusing, but also pretty simple.
[26:10.820 --> 26:13.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: A pledge of $25, you'll definitely get the two books.
[26:13.740 --> 26:21.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you have a chance, if you're interested, of getting a ticket to one of America's oldest hacker conferences.
[26:21.820 --> 26:26.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, we have joining us on the phone someone involved in SummerCon.
[26:26.140 --> 26:27.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mark from SummerCon joins us.
[26:27.680 --> 26:28.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mark, are you with us?
[26:28.960 --> 26:29.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I am.
[26:29.960 --> 26:30.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, guys.
[26:30.720 --> 26:31.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you all doing?
[26:31.260 --> 26:31.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty good.
[26:32.100 --> 26:34.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we got to ask, SummerCon...
[26:34.780 --> 26:40.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I went to SummerCon back when it was out in Missouri, and it was the inspiration for so much.
[26:40.360 --> 26:42.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Tell us what form it's in right now.
[26:43.120 --> 26:43.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[26:43.640 --> 26:48.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I joined the organizing of SummerCon back in 97.
[26:48.660 --> 26:51.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I've been involved in this conference for 20 years.
[26:51.520 --> 26:55.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we've definitely moved it around quite a bit in that time period.
[26:55.320 --> 27:07.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've been in Atlanta, Amsterdam, Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C., New York, Brooklyn, have been very popular as well in that time period.
[27:07.900 --> 27:16.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I have to say, organizing a conference in New York can be a logistical nightmare.
[27:16.100 --> 27:21.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly not as bad as trying to organize a conference from the United States.
[27:21.960 --> 27:23.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to happen in Amsterdam.
[27:23.980 --> 27:30.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I have to say, the venue that we've worked with the past few years is in Brooklyn.
[27:31.180 --> 27:32.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're called Littlefield.
[27:32.740 --> 27:35.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: They've been just a dream to work with.
[27:36.700 --> 27:40.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Julie and Scott there have been just amazing.
[27:40.300 --> 27:43.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: They've moved mountains to make SummerCon come off without a hitch.
[27:44.180 --> 27:50.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so, yeah, you know, we've had other events in New York, other SummerCons in New York that have not been quite as easy.
[27:50.820 --> 27:53.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: But Littlefield has always made it super easy for us.
[27:53.140 --> 27:54.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're very excited to be there again this year.
[27:54.740 --> 27:56.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: So tell us, when is SummerCon?
[27:57.880 --> 27:59.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: June 23rd and 24th.
[27:59.580 --> 28:01.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's a Friday and a Saturday.
[28:01.520 --> 28:01.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[28:01.860 --> 28:11.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have traditionally left the Sunday slate blank because SummerCon has a reputation as a bit of a drinking conference.
[28:11.280 --> 28:11.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[28:11.960 --> 28:21.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And usually there's a pretty intense party on Saturday night and people are a little broken by Sunday morning.
[28:21.480 --> 28:36.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we try to keep that day open for people to enjoy a hearty brunch and to make the connections, solidify the connections they made at SummerCon and to sort of gently ease themselves out of town after the conference is coming.
[28:36.380 --> 28:38.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a unique experience.
[28:38.220 --> 28:43.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you guys have held true to your core beliefs, values, structure over the years.
[28:43.900 --> 28:50.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I think, you know, people would benefit from experiencing this part of the hacker culture.
[28:50.960 --> 28:52.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: How many people generally show up to these things?
[28:53.420 --> 28:56.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we purposely keep it small.
[28:56.760 --> 29:19.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: We anticipate that there will be somewhere between 250 and 300 people all in, including the volunteer staff and the people that make the conference happen on the speakers and so on and so forth, which is, you know, tiny by comparison to other events that happen in New York that you may be aware of.
[29:21.280 --> 29:25.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I think that's a really important part of the identity of SummerCon.
[29:26.100 --> 29:36.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, SummerCon, to me, in the 20 years of organizing it, really, the presentations are an important part of the DNA of the conference.
[29:36.940 --> 29:52.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they're sort of a pretense to spur conversations and make it possible for people who generally only interact through, you know, the medium of their computer terminal face-to-face.
[29:52.980 --> 30:00.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: It gives them an opportunity to have something to talk about and then to build relationships with people they would otherwise not have the ability to do that with.
[30:00.000 --> 30:03.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, to me, it's very important that we have those types of presentations.
[30:04.700 --> 30:09.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: But SummerCon is a social conference above all else.
[30:09.060 --> 30:13.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's important that it's a small enough group that you can, like, actually meet the people who are at it.
[30:13.480 --> 30:23.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you want the big event, those, you know, are great, too, because there's lots of, you know, opportunities to see a smorgasbord of different, you know, things in information security hacking.
[30:23.800 --> 30:29.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: But SummerCon is really about making those connections and, you know, being a...
[30:30.560 --> 30:33.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: establishing yourself as a part of a community.
[30:33.620 --> 30:35.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
[30:35.420 --> 30:42.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And as somebody who went to some of the SummerCons in the 1980s, when I think there were only about 75 people, it really...
[30:42.560 --> 30:43.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: it built something.
[30:43.420 --> 30:44.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: It built the community.
[30:44.820 --> 30:49.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's largely responsible for much of what we take for granted today.
[30:49.120 --> 30:55.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I dare say, having it remain small and intimate and actually traveling around the world, I think that's a great idea.
[30:56.520 --> 31:03.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're kind of bringing that spirit to today's culture and giving people the chance to grow from that.
[31:04.420 --> 31:04.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[31:04.920 --> 31:05.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[31:05.260 --> 31:18.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, I think that certainly there's the enthusiasm there for this thing to be a much bigger conference, but it's also a little bit antithetical to what we want to be.
[31:18.040 --> 31:23.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we on the planning side have ideas about, you know, how we should run this type of event.
[31:24.480 --> 31:31.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, there's, you know, different format choices that, you know, have been made throughout the years.
[31:31.580 --> 31:37.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that when SummerCon is too polished, it doesn't feel very, you know, authentic.
[31:38.240 --> 31:40.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: It has to be a little rough around the edges.
[31:40.740 --> 31:41.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: It has to be...
[31:41.720 --> 31:49.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, things need to sort of, you know, have a bit of an edge to them for it to really be, to really be SummerCon, to really be a SummerCon.
[31:50.560 --> 31:59.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a very good history of SummerCon that was in Phrack five years ago for the 25th anniversary of SummerCon.
[31:59.060 --> 32:04.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is actually the 30th anniversary of SummerCon, or as we're calling it, SummerCon triple X.
[32:06.100 --> 32:09.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so that's an exciting landmark.
[32:09.480 --> 32:18.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think there's only one hacker conference in the world that has more... that is older, which is, you know, Chaos Computer Club's annual congress.
[32:18.580 --> 32:18.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[32:18.960 --> 32:20.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: They started in 1984, I believe.
[32:21.340 --> 32:21.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[32:21.780 --> 32:27.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: And SummerCon in 87, making it the oldest American.
[32:27.060 --> 32:34.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think... I don't know if Chaos was in 84, 85, but I know that SummerCon's official first one was in 87.
[32:35.380 --> 32:35.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[32:36.220 --> 32:37.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Quite a history there.
[32:37.560 --> 32:41.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And are most people who attend aware of SummerCon's history?
[32:42.680 --> 32:45.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: We make an effort to tell people about it.
[32:46.260 --> 32:56.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's sort of a quick opening presentation to thank, you know, people who, you know, have come in and to let people know, like, this is really, you know, this is the granddaddy.
[32:56.160 --> 33:12.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is like, if you've been to conferences like HOPE or DEFCON, you know, that are in this specific format in vain, they really owe a spiritual debt to SummerCon as the foundation of how this type of thing comes together.
[33:13.720 --> 33:17.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and we take that very seriously.
[33:17.300 --> 33:31.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think it's important that we carry through on sort of the vision as it was then to be social and to be about creating those connections for the people that are in it.
[33:32.380 --> 33:35.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, we may have already given away these tickets.
[33:35.780 --> 33:36.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite possible.
[33:36.980 --> 33:39.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: The phone number is 516-620-3602.
[33:40.060 --> 33:41.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: A number of calls have come in already.
[33:41.660 --> 33:45.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're offering for any pledge, by the way, it doesn't have to be for the Car Hacker's Handbook.
[33:45.200 --> 33:57.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Any pledge that comes in between now and, say, five minutes of nine o'clock, you will have a chance to get a ticket to SummerCon, one of the most historic conferences that we're lucky is in New York this year.
[33:58.800 --> 34:01.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the phone number, 516-620-3602.
[34:02.020 --> 34:10.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're also offering for a $25 pledge the Car Hacker's Handbook and 1984 in the 20th century, a really good package there.
[34:11.500 --> 34:13.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alex, I believe you had a question?
[34:13.540 --> 34:19.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I did, actually, because my understanding is that SummerCon is otherwise sold out as well.
[34:19.640 --> 34:26.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: So this is a way that you can attend by pledging right now, and you otherwise wouldn't be able to get a ticket.
[34:26.720 --> 34:27.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is my understanding correct?
[34:28.360 --> 34:30.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is 100% correct.
[34:30.340 --> 34:34.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: It is an impossible ticket to get at this point.
[34:34.000 --> 34:40.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, we're not even taking sponsorship money anymore at this point due to capacity.
[34:41.320 --> 34:46.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: So these are the last two tickets that will ever be available for SummerCon.
[34:46.600 --> 34:46.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[34:47.600 --> 34:49.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it sounds very dramatic when you put it that way.
[34:49.780 --> 34:50.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not bad.
[34:50.300 --> 34:51.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have a ticket.
[34:51.520 --> 34:52.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe I should pledge.
[34:52.560 --> 34:55.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you might be too late, but we can try, you know.
[34:55.980 --> 34:56.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[34:56.320 --> 34:57.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing's stopping you.
[34:57.200 --> 34:57.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[34:57.560 --> 34:58.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[34:58.020 --> 34:59.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Give me your credit card number now.
[34:59.220 --> 34:59.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[34:59.540 --> 35:00.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want me to give it to you now?
[35:00.980 --> 35:01.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, just read it out.
[35:02.660 --> 35:03.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a Visa card.
[35:03.920 --> 35:04.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, look at that.
[35:04.420 --> 35:05.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly.
[35:05.840 --> 35:10.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us something, Roy, can you tell us something about the speakers at this year's SummerCon?
[35:11.460 --> 35:12.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[35:14.380 --> 35:19.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have eight speaking slots that are open this year.
[35:20.900 --> 35:37.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have a general overview of the state of security, which is being presented by Sarah Zetko, who is the chief scientist at the Cyber Independent Testing Lab.
[35:37.580 --> 35:57.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're not affiliated with UL, but their initial formation was to be something like a consumer's union or a UL that would like to give you information about consumer products and help consumers understand the risk in the software products they're buying.
[35:57.940 --> 36:14.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: So when you buy a router and there's two routers on the shelf, which one actually has a company behind it that actually cares about patching their firmware on a regular basis and addressing software issues up front?
[36:14.520 --> 36:17.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: So she'll be presenting sort of an overview in that vein.
[36:17.440 --> 36:33.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think a very interesting presentation that I'm looking forward to is Mikhail Davidoff, who's going to talk about reverse engineering, linear DX, wireless security.
[36:33.380 --> 36:46.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, linear DX is a very old, um, physical security, um, protocol that's using like passive infrared sensors, um, you know, door lock strikes, things like that.
[36:46.760 --> 36:48.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, like it's everywhere.
[36:48.920 --> 36:53.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he's going to show how you can reverse engineer it and, uh, do some interesting things with it.
[36:53.780 --> 36:55.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kyle, I see your face is lighting up at this.
[36:55.940 --> 37:03.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's, uh, oh, no, I, I know that, uh, this individual's a, a very, uh, skilled and, uh, interesting person and very capable.
[37:04.080 --> 37:06.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: So probably, uh, that talk will be quite interesting.
[37:06.740 --> 37:06.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[37:08.080 --> 37:08.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[37:08.660 --> 37:21.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Dr. Ancree and, uh, uh, Rick Housley have a presentation about, um, uh, how to defeat secure boot using electromagnetic pulses.
[37:22.300 --> 37:25.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, yeah, they'll be using an EMP generator.
[37:25.940 --> 37:27.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Their custom EMP generator.
[37:28.000 --> 37:28.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[37:28.480 --> 37:36.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: To, um, get around secure boot in, um, a Cisco 8861 IP phone.
[37:36.700 --> 37:39.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that should be a pretty, a pretty interesting one.
[37:39.040 --> 37:40.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: These are some pretty advanced talks here.
[37:41.060 --> 37:42.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And some of it has always been that way.
[37:43.040 --> 37:43.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[37:43.720 --> 38:04.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: We, we think that the, the, that there's plenty of conference space that is dealing with, you know, sort of the softer topics around, uh, information security, be they, a social or political or, um, uh, you know, uh, dealing with, you know, the person to person side of it,
[38:05.040 --> 38:10.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: our talks tend to be highly technical, like geared toward a very technical audience.
[38:10.820 --> 38:24.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And again, you know, bearing in mind that these are designed to spur, you know, the, the conversation to sort of get people to talk and to open up, um, about, you know, the types of things that they're working on and to, you know, sort of, you know, get,
[38:24.180 --> 38:27.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: you know, new ideas and to, and to, to fuel the research pipeline.
[38:27.800 --> 38:37.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mark, I get, I get the sense that SummerCon, uh, could grow exponentially and become huge and, and massively corporate, but you guys don't seem to want to go that route.
[38:37.160 --> 38:37.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that correct?
[38:37.580 --> 38:38.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[38:39.280 --> 38:52.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I would say that the hardest thing that we had to do in the past few years is actually start to accept money from corporate sponsors in order to run the event, because it's just too expensive to do based entirely on ticket sales.
[38:52.220 --> 38:56.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so we, we have taken money, uh, from corporate sponsors, modest amounts of money.
[38:56.880 --> 39:11.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I, I would also say that the one difference between us and, and pretty much any other conference I know of that takes corporate sponsorship is that, um, on day one, when we, we kick off the conference, the very first thing that we, we present, you know,
[39:12.000 --> 39:25.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: the organizers of the conference are on stage and we walk through a brief financial presentation to actually show, you know, what money came in, you know, how it came in, you know, whether it was sponsorship or whether it was ticket sales or, you know,
[39:26.420 --> 39:28.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: horrible things we had to do at Port Authority bus terminal.
[39:29.200 --> 39:35.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and then, um, we then go through what all the, the, you know, the outflows of money were as well.
[39:35.640 --> 39:49.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you can see, like, we spend this money on the event and, you know, when more money comes in, it goes directly into the event because we are essentially all volunteers and we're all dedicated to, uh, creating, you know, the best possible party for the,
[39:49.580 --> 39:50.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: for the community.
[39:50.580 --> 39:50.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[39:51.020 --> 39:51.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's awesome.
[39:51.820 --> 39:53.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's a really interesting way of handling it.
[39:53.740 --> 39:59.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I know we've, we've, uh, done very, very limited, uh, uh, sponsorship opportunities for hope.
[39:59.640 --> 40:10.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and it's worked out, but it is something we've, uh, we, we were very, uh, reluctant to, to dive into, uh, because it can, it can get out of hand, uh, as I'm sure you can imagine.
[40:10.460 --> 40:10.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[40:10.580 --> 40:11.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not done properly.
[40:11.500 --> 40:14.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: It can ruin things, but, uh, sounds like you guys know what you're doing.
[40:14.880 --> 40:15.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[40:15.300 --> 40:17.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: The transparency part I think is the key.
[40:17.280 --> 40:30.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, people are, are, are realistic about the need for, um, for, for money to make things happen, but you need to really open the books and just say, okay, look, here's the money that came in.
[40:31.100 --> 40:35.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't let our sponsors really dictate the direction of what we're going to present.
[40:35.640 --> 40:41.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, we don't have a, uh, a pay to play, you know, mechanism in place.
[40:41.940 --> 40:44.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: We basically are like, thank you for your money.
[40:45.460 --> 40:47.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we hope you enjoy the party.
[40:47.880 --> 40:47.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[40:48.240 --> 40:56.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and we hope that, uh, your products are secure and good because if they're not, people are going to, um, make fun of you openly.
[40:56.500 --> 41:01.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, definitely that, that, that arm's length ability to say, okay, you're done.
[41:01.280 --> 41:05.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you got, you got what we agreed to and, uh, transparency too.
[41:05.380 --> 41:11.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I know, uh, it's, it's a lot smaller for us, but pretty much it's only gone to either bandwidth or segways.
[41:11.940 --> 41:32.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm talking, uh, I will, I will say though, uh, you know, for the record, our, our, our sponsors are really great at, um, at, at, you know, respecting that type of, um, uh, arm's length approach and, uh, also their goods and services are, uh, vastly superior to their competitors.
[41:33.220 --> 41:38.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we, you know, talking of the very important subject of money to make things happen.
[41:38.260 --> 41:45.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, one reason we're here tonight is to remind you to call 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org.
[41:45.520 --> 41:45.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[41:45.760 --> 41:46.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Keep us on the air.
[41:46.640 --> 41:47.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Keep us on the air.
[41:47.600 --> 41:48.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, pledge anything you can.
[41:48.440 --> 41:57.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like, uh, to donate $25, you can get the package with the car hackers handbook, as well as 1984 in the 21st century, um, for a pledge of, uh, 75.
[41:57.400 --> 41:58.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did I get the century wrong?
[41:58.300 --> 41:59.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was saying 20th century.
[41:59.760 --> 42:00.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: 21st.
[42:00.880 --> 42:01.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: 21st century.
[42:01.820 --> 42:02.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
[42:02.360 --> 42:02.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the wrong.
[42:02.980 --> 42:03.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[42:03.240 --> 42:03.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[42:03.440 --> 42:04.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was going to correct you.
[42:05.180 --> 42:08.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: If I get the century wrong, Alex, correct me, please.
[42:08.380 --> 42:08.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's important.
[42:09.100 --> 42:09.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not the first time.
[42:09.800 --> 42:10.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not the last.
[42:10.580 --> 42:12.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Next century, we'll make sure to straighten that out.
[42:12.940 --> 42:23.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, but yeah, and any, uh, any pledge you make tonight for the next, uh, I want to say 15 minutes or so also, uh, gives you a chance to get, uh, one of these free remaining summer con tickets.
[42:23.220 --> 42:25.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: I should point out, we are going to run out of these books.
[42:25.860 --> 42:27.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it looks like we're going to run out pretty soon.
[42:27.780 --> 42:31.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're going to call, give a call now, 516-620-3602.
[42:32.660 --> 42:38.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Odds are that, uh, of the people who have called in so far, uh, two of them want tickets to summer con.
[42:38.700 --> 42:43.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I see that there, uh, there's some local people here, uh, but it's still possible that they don't.
[42:43.720 --> 42:49.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, you could get one of the tickets if you call and pledge any amount, 516-620-3602.
[42:49.300 --> 42:54.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, what we'll do is, um, uh, in the next day or so, we will contact people in the order that they called.
[42:55.140 --> 42:59.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if somebody says, yes, I would like one ticket, they will get one ticket.
[42:59.260 --> 43:04.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and, uh, if they don't, then we move on to the next person until two tickets are gone and, and you can only get one ticket.
[43:04.780 --> 43:05.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't get two.
[43:05.660 --> 43:07.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's, that's part of how it works.
[43:07.560 --> 43:08.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: $25 pledge.
[43:08.480 --> 43:08.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not bad.
[43:09.660 --> 43:11.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[43:12.000 --> 43:12.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Alex.
[43:12.480 --> 43:14.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mark, I have a question for you.
[43:14.080 --> 43:16.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: How much would a ticket ordinarily cost for summer con?
[43:16.840 --> 43:23.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so if you were to have purchased a ticket two months ago and they were still available, um, they were $75.
[43:24.300 --> 43:24.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[43:24.800 --> 43:26.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's, that's, so you can get a great deal tonight.
[43:27.040 --> 43:27.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is not bad.
[43:27.740 --> 43:29.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: But now you can't get them for any price.
[43:29.500 --> 43:31.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, for love or money, you can't get a ticket.
[43:32.240 --> 43:39.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: So this is, you know, this is, this is the way, this is the one true way to get the last two tickets to summer con.
[43:39.240 --> 43:39.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[43:40.400 --> 43:46.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: The chance may already be gone, but, uh, you'll never know unless you call 516-620-3602.
[43:46.980 --> 43:54.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: In any event, even if you don't get the tickets, you do get the two amazing books, The Car Hacker's Handbook, and 1984 in the 21st Century.
[43:54.680 --> 43:57.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Off The Hook, and WBAI.
[43:57.400 --> 43:57.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[43:57.760 --> 43:59.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: We continue to come your way every week.
[43:59.340 --> 44:00.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: We will persist.
[44:00.380 --> 44:00.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[44:00.760 --> 44:02.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know how to stop.
[44:02.340 --> 44:06.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Mark, any, any other words you want to, uh, share with our listeners about summer con in general?
[44:07.180 --> 44:08.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, we're just super excited.
[44:09.300 --> 44:12.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, everything has come together for this conference.
[44:12.360 --> 44:17.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's actually astounding how, uh, easy the planning this year has been.
[44:17.420 --> 44:24.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I anticipate eating those words, uh, 20 minutes into the actual, uh, conference on the 23rd.
[44:24.440 --> 44:27.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's super exciting to be back in Brooklyn.
[44:27.860 --> 44:30.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I look forward to seeing everybody at summer con.
[44:30.680 --> 44:32.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Where, where were you last year?
[44:32.620 --> 44:33.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were also in Brooklyn.
[44:34.100 --> 44:35.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were also at Littlefield.
[44:35.360 --> 44:35.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[44:35.540 --> 44:39.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Although, uh, interestingly, Littlefield has moved.
[44:39.640 --> 44:45.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So they will not be at the, um, the, on the same street they were in, in Brooklyn.
[44:45.780 --> 44:48.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're in the middle of moving the venue this very evening.
[44:49.040 --> 44:52.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: So you go, you're going to be at the same venue, but the venue itself has moved.
[44:52.080 --> 44:52.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[44:52.840 --> 44:53.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Correct.
[44:53.400 --> 44:53.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[44:53.980 --> 44:55.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is, that is a hacker thing for sure.
[44:56.180 --> 45:01.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, but you've been, uh, where was the last place you were before, before you were in New York?
[45:01.800 --> 45:06.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think Pittsburgh was the previous city.
[45:06.140 --> 45:08.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then before that was Atlanta.
[45:08.420 --> 45:10.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And do the audiences change based on where you are?
[45:11.160 --> 45:12.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: It, that absolutely happens.
[45:13.240 --> 45:18.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, although there are some people that show up year after year, no matter where it is.
[45:18.760 --> 45:21.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: You should really challenge those people and go to Antarctica or something.
[45:22.080 --> 45:23.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then see if they follow you there.
[45:24.280 --> 45:37.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, well, you know, I, I, I, I really thought that some people would have shaken out when we went to Amsterdam in 2001, but, um, you know, they, they, they, they were stalwart.
[45:37.400 --> 45:37.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: They made it.
[45:38.020 --> 45:40.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that, is that the only time it's been outside the United States?
[45:40.580 --> 45:44.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that is the only time it has been outside of the United States.
[45:44.140 --> 45:44.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[45:44.680 --> 46:02.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, I got to tell you, as the person who was, uh, doing the heavy lifting on that, um, to like fill out customs forms and to, um, you know, get product from the United States to the Netherlands and to, uh, uh, like just deal with everything from like power being different to,
[46:02.220 --> 46:07.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: and bear in mind back then, like you, you negotiated a bandwidth in a hotel.
[46:07.300 --> 46:10.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was delivered in a, as a basic rate ISDN connection.
[46:11.640 --> 46:25.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, you know, like just dealing with like telecommunications differences and stuff like that requires a whole different kind of like logistical planning that, um, I'm glad I don't have to do when we move it around in the United States.
[46:25.180 --> 46:25.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[46:25.360 --> 46:28.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: But still, I love the idea of a, a roaming hacker conference.
[46:28.060 --> 46:32.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, uh, because you have to develop all these abilities and you learn so much about, about different cultures.
[46:32.600 --> 46:40.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm also very curious if there are people who have been, um, there must be like an award for the person who's been to the most summer cons, regardless of where it happened to be.
[46:41.240 --> 46:41.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[46:41.860 --> 46:49.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, uh, a few years ago, we had started a tradition of giving out medals for different, um, for recognizing different people for different things.
[46:49.140 --> 46:57.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like the first person to buy a ticket to summer con would, uh, get a, a medal for, um, for actually being a planner.
[46:57.920 --> 47:08.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and we back then warned people that, um, eventually like there would be no way to get a ticket on day of, and it would be a big, this would actually be an important, uh, uh, award to strive for.
[47:09.260 --> 47:11.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but that's a good one too.
[47:11.360 --> 47:20.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I like the idea of us, uh, tracing, uh, down who has been to the most summer cons, you know, a lifetime award, um, you know, a trophy that we could have.
[47:20.880 --> 47:20.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[47:20.900 --> 47:23.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we could find somebody who's been to the first one, that would be amazing.
[47:23.880 --> 47:24.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[47:24.860 --> 47:25.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that would be terrific.
[47:26.140 --> 47:33.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I do feel like, um, a few years ago, there was an attendee from the first one who breezed through.
[47:33.640 --> 47:36.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I don't know if it was by design though.
[47:36.720 --> 47:43.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was, it was being held in a, in a bar in, uh, uh, in, on the lower east side of Manhattan.
[47:44.140 --> 47:46.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, maybe it was just, you know, dumb luck.
[47:46.380 --> 47:49.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they could just breeze through anyway without even having a conference.
[47:49.420 --> 47:49.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: You never know.
[47:50.840 --> 47:51.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[47:51.080 --> 47:51.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's entirely possible.
[47:51.940 --> 47:52.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Voltaire, go ahead.
[47:52.720 --> 47:53.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Will there be Club-Mate?
[47:55.260 --> 48:06.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, you know, we, um, are working on a, a, uh, beverage sponsor, but I, I cannot reveal who, but I can say it is not Club-Mate.
[48:07.400 --> 48:07.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[48:07.780 --> 48:15.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, not, it's also not Covfefe, which, you know, I, I'm not entirely sure how we get that sponsor online, but we're working on it.
[48:15.620 --> 48:17.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you guys want a case, let us know.
[48:17.400 --> 48:20.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll, we'll send one over just as a show of respect there.
[48:20.940 --> 48:26.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mark, thank you so much just for what you do and for offering the tickets and, and, and best of luck with SummerCon this year and all the years ahead.
[48:27.480 --> 48:28.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, thank you very much.
[48:28.620 --> 48:31.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And thank you for, uh, for staying off the hook.
[48:31.500 --> 48:31.700]  Yeah.
[48:31.940 --> 48:32.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.
[48:32.440 --> 48:33.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again.
[48:33.820 --> 48:34.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take care.
[48:35.040 --> 48:35.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good night.
[48:36.340 --> 48:36.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[48:36.840 --> 48:39.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we, we, we do try to stay off the hook, but we don't always succeed.
[48:40.540 --> 48:41.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, okay.
[48:41.420 --> 48:42.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank the people who are calling in.
[48:42.520 --> 48:43.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're getting a good number of calls.
[48:43.880 --> 48:45.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we still have a couple of books left.
[48:45.420 --> 48:47.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[48:47.860 --> 48:50.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pledge of $25 gets you the car hackers handbook.
[48:51.320 --> 48:59.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also a bonus book that is not listed anywhere, but, uh, you will definitely get it is 1984 in the 21st century.
[48:59.520 --> 49:09.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you have an opportunity, a chance for you call in the next five minutes to get one of the two tickets to SummerCon later this, um, uh, actually later next month.
[49:09.960 --> 49:10.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Tomorrow is June 1st.
[49:10.920 --> 49:18.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, later in June, uh, for two days, uh, one of the most, um, historic conferences in the hacker community.
[49:18.980 --> 49:21.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[49:21.760 --> 49:21.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alex.
[49:22.120 --> 49:33.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: To go back to these books, you know, I'm, I'm looking at both of them right now and they're, they're actually, you can't get it over the radio, but you know, these are actually really handsome looking books as well.
[49:33.400 --> 49:43.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even if you don't want to read them, or if you don't think you'll, you would actually read them, I think just having them on your coffee table would say a lot about you as a human being.
[49:43.320 --> 49:44.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it wouldn't say much about you if you didn't read them.
[49:45.160 --> 49:47.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, basically, you know how to put a book on a coffee table.
[49:47.580 --> 49:47.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: It would send a message.
[49:47.900 --> 49:51.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It would send a message that, you know, these are the types of things that I'm interested in.
[49:51.240 --> 49:53.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Look, if I see a book on your coffee table, I'm going to ask you what it's about.
[49:53.960 --> 49:56.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you say, oh, I just put it there to show off.
[49:56.180 --> 49:57.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm, that's going to tell me something about you.
[49:57.820 --> 49:58.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then that's going to tell you something about me too.
[49:58.920 --> 49:59.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[49:59.220 --> 50:00.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Read the damn book, people.
[50:00.240 --> 50:01.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a good book.
[50:01.520 --> 50:04.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know, but I just, it bothers me when people don't read.
[50:04.700 --> 50:06.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and this is a great book.
[50:06.160 --> 50:06.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're both Both great books.
[50:07.100 --> 50:12.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're both great books, but, you know, realistically, to read something cover to cover like that would be tricky.
[50:12.280 --> 50:14.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think there's a lot in the Car Hacker's Handbook here.
[50:14.780 --> 50:17.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kyle's gotten through half of it in the last half hour alone.
[50:17.720 --> 50:18.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: He probably has.
[50:18.420 --> 50:19.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually really interesting.
[50:19.320 --> 50:26.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: This book, the jacket is designed to lie flat so that while you're working on a vehicle, you can maybe flip pages...
[50:26.160 --> 50:26.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, is that right?
[50:26.540 --> 50:27.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: ...and refer to things.
[50:27.220 --> 50:28.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's got a special binding.
[50:29.340 --> 50:39.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: And before we go, I do want to give a big thanks to the folks at No Starch Press for providing the finest in geek entertainment.
[50:40.000 --> 50:40.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[50:40.980 --> 50:41.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's trademarked.
[50:43.540 --> 50:48.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we're definitely thanking them from the future as they contributed this last year.
[50:49.340 --> 50:56.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: So really, really special that they're still supporting us and they may not know it.
[50:56.920 --> 50:58.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely.
[50:58.560 --> 50:59.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we support them as well.
[51:00.000 --> 51:03.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our phone number, if you want to support us, 516-620-3602.
[51:03.980 --> 51:06.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're getting some more calls coming in, which is great to see.
[51:07.300 --> 51:09.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we have room for a few more.
[51:09.440 --> 51:13.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And again, there are other Off The Hook related premiums that we haven't talked about tonight.
[51:13.360 --> 51:17.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: All you have to do is ask the people who answer the phone.
[51:17.780 --> 51:20.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[51:20.380 --> 51:28.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're calling in the future, you can always pledge or support via give2wbai.org and mention Off The Hook as your favorite show.
[51:28.860 --> 51:30.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that will help as well.
[51:30.320 --> 51:33.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: You might be able to find some premiums that we still have some of.
[51:34.820 --> 51:41.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you want a shot at the SummerCon tickets and you definitely want the two books, we suggest calling very quickly now.
[51:41.940 --> 51:42.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: We only have a couple left.
[51:43.100 --> 51:45.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[51:45.860 --> 51:52.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you happen to call and find out that there are none left, don't despair because there are other things that you can get.
[51:52.380 --> 51:58.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you will also be safe in the knowledge that you're supporting WBAI.
[51:58.220 --> 51:59.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're supporting Off The Hook.
[52:00.080 --> 52:03.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you're doing something that will make you feel good.
[52:03.900 --> 52:04.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[52:04.440 --> 52:06.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[52:06.480 --> 52:06.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[52:07.000 --> 52:19.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And to go back to the 1984 book, just looking through the table of contents, I can say unequivocally that the essays are, as we like to say in the media world, fair and balanced.
[52:20.860 --> 52:22.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't, don't, don't say that.
[52:22.380 --> 52:24.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: That phrase has been ruined.
[52:24.620 --> 52:26.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't say that anymore.
[52:26.040 --> 52:28.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was just trying to get a rise out of you, and it worked.
[52:28.140 --> 52:29.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's so easy these days.
[52:29.040 --> 52:29.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's pretty easy these days.
[52:30.160 --> 52:30.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's pretty easy.
[52:30.900 --> 52:36.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I just want to read you some of the titles, though, because these essays do come from both the right and the left.
[52:36.760 --> 52:39.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we've got George Orwell and the Self-Preventing Prophecy.
[52:39.920 --> 52:42.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: 1984 was the catalyst of our conversation.
[52:42.640 --> 52:46.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: How 1984 can decode Trump's first 100 days, which was mine.
[52:46.740 --> 52:48.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Trump is not Orwellian.
[52:48.460 --> 52:50.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: He is the distractor-in-chief.
[52:50.320 --> 52:54.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why Orwell's sudden bestseller, 1984, is more applicable to Obama than Trump.
[52:55.160 --> 52:57.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: 1984, the facts on the ground are emotions.
[52:58.080 --> 52:59.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Goodbye, my safety blanket.
[52:59.580 --> 53:02.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: 1984 in Walden, a time and a place in two volumes.
[53:02.920 --> 53:03.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there's a lot.
[53:03.880 --> 53:05.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's actually 25 essays.
[53:05.440 --> 53:08.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I said earlier around 20, there's 25 essays in this book.
[53:08.680 --> 53:10.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a wonderful book.
[53:10.600 --> 53:12.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think the writing is fantastic.
[53:12.540 --> 53:18.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were all at the book launch party, which coincidentally happened at the KGB bar a couple of months ago.
[53:18.340 --> 53:26.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that says something really wonderful about Riverdale Avenue books, that they've got a great sense of humor and had the launch party at the KGB bar in the East Village.
[53:26.480 --> 53:27.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's just...
[53:27.560 --> 53:36.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think you're getting two really, really great books whose value far exceeds what the amount of a required pledge is.
[53:36.400 --> 53:40.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's saying something, too, about what people will do to support this station.
[53:41.660 --> 53:48.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we give our time, we give our products, we give our services, and it's all in the spirit of keeping WBAI on the air.
[53:48.900 --> 53:53.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: So please call 516-620-3602 and help us out.
[53:54.600 --> 54:03.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we have long on this program espoused the virtues of 1984 as a work of literature and just how it can spark so much thought and so much conversation.
[54:03.220 --> 54:10.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in one book here, you've got the thoughts and conversations and ruminations of such a group of luminaries, including Alex here.
[54:11.480 --> 54:22.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really a great way to not only use the piece of art as a jump-off point to discuss everything else that's going on in the world, but provide a deeper understanding of the art itself.
[54:22.860 --> 54:29.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you call 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org, we might still have a couple of these left.
[54:30.360 --> 54:31.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you have to get them with...
[54:31.880 --> 54:32.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, stop.
[54:32.440 --> 54:32.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Stop.
[54:32.680 --> 54:33.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-oh.
[54:33.240 --> 54:33.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stop.
[54:34.560 --> 54:35.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just stop.
[54:35.600 --> 54:36.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: The presses have stopped.
[54:37.080 --> 54:37.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're all gone.
[54:38.320 --> 54:38.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: All gone.
[54:39.120 --> 54:40.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't say we didn't warn you.
[54:40.300 --> 54:42.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: We said that this was going to happen, and it's happened.
[54:42.640 --> 54:43.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're all gone.
[54:44.140 --> 54:45.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very serious.
[54:45.460 --> 54:47.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been keeping track, and they're all gone.
[54:47.100 --> 54:48.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: So no more books.
[54:48.480 --> 54:49.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: No more books.
[54:49.280 --> 54:52.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, thank you, everyone, who pledged and got one of those.
[54:53.200 --> 54:56.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're going to be really, really pleased with it.
[54:56.560 --> 54:57.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to promise you.
[54:57.720 --> 55:05.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you call now, while you can't get the books, you can get other items that are there.
[55:05.680 --> 55:07.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just ask for any Off The Hook items, any hacker items.
[55:08.760 --> 55:14.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Most importantly, though, you will get the assurance of knowing that you're supporting WBAI, and that's what it's all about.
[55:17.420 --> 55:20.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: 516-620-3602.
[55:20.540 --> 55:21.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Give a call to that number.
[55:23.180 --> 55:24.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'm amazed.
[55:24.500 --> 55:25.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think this is great.
[55:25.620 --> 55:29.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is a real, yeah, moment, I think, for us.
[55:29.680 --> 55:30.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're being listened to.
[55:30.920 --> 55:33.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're being supported, and we have to thank everybody who pledged.
[55:33.880 --> 55:35.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a really wonderful feeling.
[55:35.140 --> 55:44.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: A special thanks to the person who just donated $25 and got no premium because it got to the point where the premium wasn't available, but they still donated the $25.
[55:44.220 --> 55:46.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you to Eric down there in Maryland.
[55:47.240 --> 55:48.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: We appreciate that a lot.
[55:48.760 --> 55:50.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you to everybody else still calling in.
[55:51.100 --> 55:54.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to everyone who has called in over the past few weeks.
[55:54.440 --> 56:06.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: This has been a great fundraiser for us, and we hope that we see many of you listeners in future shows and future events that we have.
[56:07.680 --> 56:14.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's always been nothing more than the listenership that's kept us going here at Off The Hook and here at WBAI.
[56:14.220 --> 56:18.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the only thing we do to keep the lights on around here is ask for your help.
[56:18.420 --> 56:27.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that we've continued to get it for decades and decades, and this station still exists, it's bizarre and it's wonderful, and it's all thanks to listeners like you.
[56:27.260 --> 56:29.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, thanks, Ryan, from Philadelphia for our very generous pledge.
[56:29.980 --> 56:37.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: It just came in, which kind of doubled everything that we got up to now already.
[56:37.520 --> 56:39.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're getting some really nice phone calls.
[56:39.760 --> 56:44.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank everybody for their support, for saying that Off The Hook means something to them.
[56:44.760 --> 56:55.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: It means something to us that you're out there, and that's why we come back every week with more news about what's going on in this crazy world of technology and hacking.
[56:56.180 --> 57:08.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, right after the alternative facts gambit that Kellyanne Conway made in the first week of the Trump presidency, that's when sales of 1984 just completely surged.
[57:08.820 --> 57:18.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that we should look at the place of WBAI in New York and in the world, quite frankly, as being similar to that.
[57:18.380 --> 57:23.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's so important these days to support community radio like this, support independent voices.
[57:24.020 --> 57:26.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're doing it, and I think that's wonderful.
[57:26.480 --> 57:29.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you, everybody, who pledged this week and last.
[57:29.960 --> 57:33.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And with luck, we'll be back next week with a regular show.
[57:33.700 --> 57:36.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Write to us, oth@2600.com.
[57:37.120 --> 57:39.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'd love to hear from you, hear your thoughts and ideas.
[57:41.040 --> 57:43.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Volta, you have something to add?
[57:43.740 --> 57:46.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, follow us at Hacker Radio Show on Twitter.
[57:46.840 --> 57:48.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hacker Radio Show on Twitter.
[57:48.280 --> 57:49.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Rob, you have something else to add.
[57:49.520 --> 57:52.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And check out your local 2600 meeting all over the world this Friday.
[57:52.440 --> 57:53.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Thursday in Israel.
[57:54.300 --> 57:54.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, indeed.
[57:54.940 --> 57:56.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: 2600.com/meetings.
[57:56.580 --> 57:56.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[57:57.160 --> 57:59.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: And don't forget IRC.2600.net.
[57:59.380 --> 58:02.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and don't forget our Facebook page, which is out there somewhere.
[58:03.340 --> 58:04.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or oth@2600.com.
[58:04.740 --> 58:06.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Follow us on Twitter, 2600.
[58:06.680 --> 58:07.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that too.
[58:07.560 --> 58:08.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Had to pull strings to get that one.
[58:08.760 --> 58:09.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[58:09.420 --> 58:09.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[58:10.200 --> 58:10.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[58:10.880 --> 58:12.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's it for us now.
[58:13.180 --> 58:14.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back next week.
[58:15.140 --> 58:15.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have a good night.