Off The Hook - 2018-03-21

[00:00.000 --> 00:00.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Critical time.
[00:01.260 --> 00:08.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, dial 41444 and text TRANSMIT995 to make your pledge.
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[00:33.610 --> 00:36.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:36.690 --> 00:40.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: The time is 8 o'clock time once again for another edition of Off The Hook.
[02:28.790 --> 02:30.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:30.470 --> 02:31.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:32.130 --> 02:35.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by...
[02:36.430 --> 02:36.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle?
[02:37.810 --> 02:39.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, E, what's up?
[02:39.310 --> 02:40.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where's everybody?
[02:40.950 --> 02:41.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who?
[02:42.410 --> 02:44.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: All the people that usually are here.
[02:44.630 --> 02:46.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody was able to make it through the snow again?
[02:47.350 --> 02:51.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's nobody on the subways, okay?
[02:51.410 --> 02:52.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's nobody in the streets.
[02:52.950 --> 02:54.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody stayed home.
[02:54.470 --> 02:55.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a little snow.
[02:55.950 --> 02:57.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, it really is just a little snow.
[02:57.550 --> 03:02.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have to drive through this, 60 miles through craziness.
[03:02.330 --> 03:04.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: More than that sometimes, depending on where we are.
[03:05.170 --> 03:07.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we're here.
[03:07.690 --> 03:08.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here we are.
[03:08.450 --> 03:10.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel good being here.
[03:10.770 --> 03:12.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess it's just us.
[03:12.770 --> 03:13.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not for everybody.
[03:14.550 --> 03:16.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just us, and I guess we'll take phone calls.
[03:16.630 --> 03:18.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's you, the listener, as well.
[03:18.690 --> 03:20.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Talking about the hacker world and what's going on.
[03:21.070 --> 03:23.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: More room for our listeners.
[03:23.030 --> 03:27.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, we could even, we could add people.
[03:27.570 --> 03:29.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a special guest just dropped in.
[03:29.370 --> 03:30.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Dan, how are you doing?
[03:30.330 --> 03:30.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[03:31.130 --> 03:31.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[03:32.030 --> 03:33.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fancy meeting you here.
[03:33.250 --> 03:41.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: The last time we heard your voice on the air, I believe, was also the first time we heard your voice on the air back in, was it January of 2017?
[03:42.470 --> 03:47.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: When there were Trump demonstrations, anti-Trump demonstrations going on all throughout the planet?
[03:47.730 --> 03:49.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was a little earlier, actually.
[03:49.650 --> 03:52.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, maybe it was right before, yeah, after he got elected.
[03:52.470 --> 03:53.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're right, you're right.
[03:53.270 --> 03:53.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[03:53.670 --> 03:55.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: So November of 2016.
[03:56.010 --> 03:56.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Boy.
[03:56.730 --> 03:56.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[03:57.030 --> 03:57.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: How have you been?
[03:57.950 --> 03:58.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been good.
[03:58.790 --> 03:58.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah?
[03:59.250 --> 04:00.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he's still in power, you know.
[04:00.870 --> 04:03.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, that's still a problem.
[04:03.450 --> 04:04.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for the warning, though.
[04:04.510 --> 04:09.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're glad that you were there and you were telling everybody on the street, you know, this is what's going on.
[04:09.130 --> 04:09.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[04:10.070 --> 04:12.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's another march coming up on Saturday.
[04:12.170 --> 04:14.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're going to talk about this since we have all this extra time now.
[04:15.710 --> 04:21.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not necessarily per se anti-Trump, although Trump is pretty much making it anti-Trump by saying stupid things.
[04:22.530 --> 04:23.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the March for Our Lives.
[04:23.830 --> 04:26.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's one in Manhattan, there's one in Brooklyn.
[04:26.330 --> 04:27.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're all over the place.
[04:27.370 --> 04:28.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's 800 of them around the country, of course.
[04:28.750 --> 04:30.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the big one in Washington, D.C.
[04:31.430 --> 04:33.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure which one we're going to go to yet.
[04:34.790 --> 04:37.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, Dante, do you have any idea which one you're going to go to?
[04:37.210 --> 04:42.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's plenty to choose from, but the main one is on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C.
[04:42.610 --> 04:44.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I'm hoping I'll get to go to that one.
[04:44.870 --> 04:45.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[04:45.170 --> 04:49.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's going to be a challenge to get there because I don't know if all the trains are sold out.
[04:49.590 --> 04:50.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if there are buses.
[04:50.790 --> 04:52.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you can drive.
[04:52.150 --> 04:56.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there are people that are working out all those possibilities.
[04:56.670 --> 05:00.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's one of those events that you remember for the rest of your life.
[05:00.730 --> 05:05.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're thinking of going to any of them, folks, I can't recommend it enough.
[05:06.550 --> 05:10.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: This, of course, was spurred by the tragic events in Parkland, Florida.
[05:10.990 --> 05:18.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: But also the inspiration that came from that when high school kids stood up to being told they had no voice.
[05:18.330 --> 05:20.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, well, you're a high school kid, aren't you, Dent?
[05:20.990 --> 05:22.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am a high school kid.
[05:22.090 --> 05:25.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, how does this fly in your... you don't have to give out your high school.
[05:25.410 --> 05:30.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in your high school, how does this kind of empowerment being received?
[05:30.790 --> 05:33.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's certainly a different dynamic.
[05:33.850 --> 05:37.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: We always did shooting drills, but we never really thought much of it.
[05:37.630 --> 05:41.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: And now we're actually... there's part of us that's scared during these drills.
[05:41.610 --> 05:44.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: And to see that, it's a really scary thing.
[05:45.110 --> 05:48.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, I think students are unifying and realizing that there is power in numbers.
[05:49.170 --> 05:49.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, wait.
[05:49.790 --> 05:50.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me see if I can get this straight.
[05:50.610 --> 05:53.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can say that you go to school here in New York City somewhere.
[05:54.510 --> 05:56.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have shooting drills.
[05:56.270 --> 05:57.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's that like?
[05:57.430 --> 06:00.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if we're... I usually have them when I'm in the cafeteria.
[06:00.950 --> 06:04.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they tell us all to duck behind the tables and stay quiet.
[06:05.450 --> 06:08.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Some kids who aren't quiet, their IDs are taken away and they're punished.
[06:09.210 --> 06:09.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: So...
[06:09.610 --> 06:10.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just like in a real shooting.
[06:10.810 --> 06:11.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what happened.
[06:11.150 --> 06:12.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: Just like in a real shooting.
[06:12.250 --> 06:12.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[06:13.050 --> 06:14.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
[06:14.230 --> 06:17.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, did they give you a warning that there's going to be a shooting drill?
[06:17.970 --> 06:22.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or did somebody just say, bang, bang, and you guys got to act the way you're supposed to act?
[06:22.470 --> 06:23.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's not much talk about it.
[06:24.150 --> 06:27.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's just an intercom voice that says, we're doing a lockdown.
[06:28.770 --> 06:34.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, when we're in the classroom, there'll be people knocking at the doors and we're not supposed to open the doors.
[06:34.130 --> 06:35.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really quite surreal.
[06:35.610 --> 06:36.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who gets to do that?
[06:36.630 --> 06:40.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who gets to run down the hall and knock on doors where there's terrified kids inside?
[06:40.650 --> 06:41.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not...
[06:41.370 --> 06:42.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: That sounds like a vice principal job.
[06:42.790 --> 06:46.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then what happens if someone opens the door and says, bang, I just killed you and you fail?
[06:47.850 --> 06:49.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's not a step we've taken yet.
[06:49.830 --> 06:53.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it's certainly looking like it's going in that direction.
[06:53.830 --> 06:55.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, now, let me ask you this.
[06:56.030 --> 06:56.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're a high school kid.
[06:57.430 --> 07:00.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: You are aware that this is not normal, right?
[07:00.570 --> 07:00.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[07:00.890 --> 07:02.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or does everybody just assume this is normal?
[07:02.450 --> 07:08.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, I think the whole nation is shocked just by the past year, what's been happening in this country.
[07:09.090 --> 07:09.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think...
[07:09.930 --> 07:11.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: But this is more than just a year.
[07:11.250 --> 07:13.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: This has been going on for a couple of decades now.
[07:13.590 --> 07:13.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[07:13.730 --> 07:18.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: The word lockdown used to only be used in prisons, and now it's being used everywhere.
[07:18.850 --> 07:18.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[07:19.090 --> 07:23.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone knows what it means, and we're living our lives like we all live in a prison.
[07:23.890 --> 07:28.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just wonder, does the younger generation of today realize how messed up that is?
[07:28.270 --> 07:32.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I think we're being desensitized to it just because it's happening so much more.
[07:34.310 --> 07:39.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think the same sort of thing happened in the 50s with nuclear war drills.
[07:39.430 --> 07:41.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that generation experienced that.
[07:41.510 --> 07:44.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think we're also experiencing something of a similar sort.
[07:44.710 --> 07:45.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Duck and cover.
[07:45.310 --> 07:48.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we might have those come back, too, if things keep going the way they're going.
[07:48.910 --> 07:53.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Under your desk with your hands over your head, and that's going to prevent you from nuclear annihilation.
[07:53.790 --> 07:55.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the lesson we learned from the 50s.
[07:56.150 --> 07:59.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so interesting that it's a form of learning.
[07:59.430 --> 08:03.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is this teaching you that is sort of happening on the periphery?
[08:03.770 --> 08:05.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, what do you learn from this?
[08:05.930 --> 08:24.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: As it's sort of normalized and they, you know, insist that you cooperate and do things the quote right way in these drills, but, you know, it's teaching so much about the kind of society we have, the kind of problems we have, what we define as problems in our society.
[08:24.490 --> 08:29.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this has been so inspiring because the students are flipping what the concern is.
[08:29.610 --> 08:41.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's always been a huge effort after an event like this to take the concern and make sure it's anything but the actual machines that are doing these things.
[08:41.910 --> 08:45.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: But here, the students are saying, no, no, no, it's not, it's not us.
[08:45.890 --> 08:48.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not the people involved necessarily.
[08:48.670 --> 08:55.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is this culture and these weapons, these machines that are inflicting so much and are so unforgiving.
[08:56.610 --> 09:02.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to read one of the paragraphs and people can go to the website marchforourlives.com.
[09:03.450 --> 09:07.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're just a brief statement on their site basically says, Not one more.
[09:07.810 --> 09:10.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: We cannot allow one more child to be shot at school.
[09:11.090 --> 09:17.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: We cannot allow one more teacher to make a choice to jump in front of a firing assault rifle to save the lives of students.
[09:17.590 --> 09:22.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: We cannot allow one more family to wait for a call or a text that never comes.
[09:22.650 --> 09:24.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our schools are unsafe.
[09:24.290 --> 09:26.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our children and teachers are dying.
[09:27.150 --> 09:30.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: We must make it our top priority to save these lives.
[09:30.850 --> 09:31.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[09:32.130 --> 09:35.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now, March for Our Lives will be taking place this Saturday.
[09:35.890 --> 09:40.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know WBAI will be covering it, as will many, many stations.
[09:41.250 --> 09:49.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: The one in New York that I see here is taking part Central Park West, West 72nd Street, starting at 10 a.m.
[09:51.670 --> 09:54.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the rally begins at 11 a.m.
[09:54.410 --> 09:57.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, again, West 72nd Street, Central Park West.
[09:58.910 --> 10:03.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's where the people start gathering beginning at 10 a.m.
[10:03.210 --> 10:04.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's others, too.
[10:04.670 --> 10:06.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's one in Brooklyn.
[10:06.650 --> 10:06.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hang on.
[10:06.830 --> 10:08.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me find the address for that.
[10:09.570 --> 10:12.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's also one in Staten Island.
[10:12.270 --> 10:16.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, okay, in Brooklyn, it's at Coney Island Boardwalk, Surf and Stillwell Avenue.
[10:16.970 --> 10:19.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: That starts at 11 a.m.
[10:19.650 --> 10:24.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Staten Island, 10 Richmond Terrace, Staten Island Borough Hall.
[10:24.230 --> 10:25.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: That starts at 9 a.m.
[10:26.070 --> 10:27.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: They always wake up early in Staten Island.
[10:28.110 --> 10:32.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Newark, New Jersey, 93 Park Place, ironically enough, at Military Park.
[10:33.770 --> 10:36.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Hackensack, 10 Main Street, the Bergen County Courthouse.
[10:37.330 --> 10:41.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that takes place at 10 a.m.
[10:41.390 --> 10:43.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: And did I mention the time for the Newark one?
[10:43.390 --> 10:44.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: That was at 10 a.m.
[10:44.470 --> 10:44.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: as well.
[10:45.170 --> 10:52.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, the one in Washington, D.C., that's taking place, I imagine, starting at 10 a.m., maybe even earlier in Washington, D.C.
[10:53.250 --> 10:56.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find more information about that, marchforourlives.com.
[10:57.170 --> 11:02.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, we figured we'd mention that since we have a high school kid with us today, and it's of great concern.
[11:02.510 --> 11:05.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do your classmates feel about this?
[11:05.450 --> 11:07.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have debates, or are people pretty much unified?
[11:08.190 --> 11:10.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think most of the school is unified.
[11:10.110 --> 11:16.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: We still have some right-wing students, but usually debates happen, and I think that's a good thing.
[11:16.510 --> 11:22.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Debates happen between right-wingers and left-wingers within school, and usually left-wingers are outnumbering them.
[11:22.330 --> 11:29.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think we're just now realizing that we're actually going to be able to vote in 2020, and we can change the problems that are occurring now.
[11:30.110 --> 11:35.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was just noticing on this site there's a link for registering to vote.
[11:35.730 --> 11:37.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's under the action section.
[11:37.910 --> 11:52.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: It says vote for our lives, and, yeah, they've got a little section in there where if you're interested in registering so that you can when you're able to, it's already been done, and, yeah, you won't have to scramble to be registered.
[11:53.470 --> 11:54.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, okay.
[11:54.250 --> 11:56.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: It really is a coalescing of resources.
[11:56.510 --> 11:57.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so cool to see.
[11:58.010 --> 11:58.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very inspirational.
[11:59.210 --> 12:04.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you don't agree, I imagine people would be inspired just by seeing this incredible groundswell.
[12:04.930 --> 12:28.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so many affinity groups around this issue that have been created from one incident or another over the years are really coming together as a unified force without sort of disintegrating from that many interests behind one movement, which shows the consistency of the message,
[12:28.970 --> 12:34.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think, the inability of it to be co-opted, which has been a real concern, I think, for the students leading it.
[12:34.410 --> 12:41.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think also, you know, even if you're right-wing, I don't think it's necessarily something that you would have to disagree with this.
[12:41.870 --> 12:48.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are plenty of people who are Republicans who think things have gone on way too far.
[12:49.710 --> 12:55.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: AR-15s and assault weapons of various sorts have no place in our society.
[12:56.330 --> 12:59.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: On the battleground, perhaps, if you believe in that kind of thing.
[12:59.350 --> 13:04.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I know plenty of gun enthusiasts who have a more common-sense approach to this.
[13:04.850 --> 13:05.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[13:05.510 --> 13:07.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's an anti-Trump rally.
[13:07.550 --> 13:09.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's definitely anti-gun violence.
[13:09.630 --> 13:12.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's something that I think most of us can agree on.
[13:12.830 --> 13:13.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, would be nice.
[13:14.030 --> 13:18.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, the notion that you need more guns to solve gun violence.
[13:18.910 --> 13:20.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: More guns is how we got here in the first place.
[13:20.990 --> 13:22.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's not forget that.
[13:23.190 --> 13:23.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[13:24.030 --> 13:25.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about this some more.
[13:25.370 --> 13:26.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll take some listener phone calls.
[13:26.550 --> 13:33.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have any questions or things that you'd like us to give out as well, we're happy to do that.
[13:33.650 --> 13:36.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: But we also have other news to cover this week.
[13:37.410 --> 13:41.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: In the hacker world, Adrian Lamo.
[13:41.810 --> 14:05.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you've heard the news, but the hacker who became very detested in the hacker world because he basically was responsible for the imprisonment of Chelsea Manning, thinking he was doing the right thing by turning her in, and I think paying the price for it for the rest of his life,
[14:05.570 --> 14:08.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: which unfortunately came to an end last week.
[14:09.370 --> 14:12.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't have information as to what the circumstances were.
[14:13.690 --> 14:23.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know there's been a variety of reaction to it, but I can't help but feel that this is a somber event, regardless of how you feel about what Adrian did.
[14:24.270 --> 14:29.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Adrian spoke at our HOPE conference a few years ago, where basically he was confronted.
[14:30.370 --> 14:42.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Myself, Phiber Optik, Kevin Mitnick, Bernie S., all on this panel and a crowd of thousands of people, kind of all angry at him for the actions he had taken in the past.
[14:42.450 --> 14:54.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And before that, he had been a hacker that had a pretty good reputation for various accomplishments, hacking the New York Times or Yahoo come to mind.
[14:56.290 --> 14:58.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we find out about that.
[14:58.890 --> 15:00.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: That happened this last week.
[15:00.770 --> 15:06.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just something that I still haven't completely processed.
[15:06.570 --> 15:13.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was hoping that one day he would redeem himself, that one day we would be able to have a conversation again.
[15:16.330 --> 15:22.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And who's to say if he realized he made a mistake, or if he doubled down and said, no, I would do it again.
[15:23.090 --> 15:25.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know there are people who supported his actions.
[15:25.770 --> 15:27.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know there are plenty of people who did not.
[15:28.610 --> 15:36.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: But anytime you lose a voice, I think it's sad and deserving of some kind of recognition.
[15:36.930 --> 15:39.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think for the most part, people in the hacker community get that.
[15:39.970 --> 15:50.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: There have been a few displays, WikiLeaks for one, that have not handled the situation with any respect whatsoever.
[15:50.110 --> 16:01.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think even, you know, someone that you disagree with, someone that even if you detest them, you still show them some respect in a situation like this.
[16:02.890 --> 16:04.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm kind of with you.
[16:04.310 --> 16:09.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there was a lot of mystery initially because there were so few details.
[16:09.770 --> 16:19.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it really was just in the first couple hours of hearing this news, a lot of people were just trying to figure out what happened, what was the circumstance.
[16:19.390 --> 16:21.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody really knew where Adrian was.
[16:21.750 --> 16:25.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was pretty mysterious up until his death.
[16:25.670 --> 16:30.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think he kept a pretty, I don't know, low profile, had his circle of friends and so on.
[16:31.030 --> 16:35.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it was a bit of a shock for me.
[16:35.630 --> 16:40.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a little just peculiar, very sudden, very, very sudden.
[16:40.130 --> 16:48.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: And as you said, we still don't have a lot of the details about that death in particular.
[16:48.450 --> 16:56.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I'm sure we'll find out more as his family is able to cope and get more information themselves.
[16:56.870 --> 17:00.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the grave dancing, I think, it's unnecessary.
[17:01.390 --> 17:11.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know where I want to jump into the issue that he was known for in our circles too much.
[17:11.810 --> 17:14.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, he had some support at our event.
[17:14.710 --> 17:17.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was, you know, there was some cheering and stuff for him.
[17:17.890 --> 17:19.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we have to acknowledge that.
[17:19.730 --> 17:22.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are people who do not agree with our perspective.
[17:23.350 --> 17:25.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they are a part of the community as well.
[17:25.410 --> 17:43.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I had a lot of friends, you know, back in the Northwest and also just in other circles that felt very strongly about Julian, you know, and felt that, you know, they had a number of, you know, women, female friends that had had less than,
[17:43.750 --> 17:47.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess the word was kosher experiences with him.
[17:48.410 --> 18:00.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's, you know, a lot of people that didn't necessarily come out and say that they supported Adrian, but there was no shortage of people that were very skeptical about what Julian was doing.
[18:02.210 --> 18:19.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Chelsea, Bradley Manning at the time was a part of that in the collateral murder video that was released and really what led to WikiLeaks really becoming a household name.
[18:20.470 --> 18:30.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: So despite the stance, I know there are people out there that, you know, really, really support him.
[18:30.150 --> 18:34.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there are others who felt quite the opposite.
[18:35.190 --> 18:46.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: There were a lot of people during the event that felt he was a pariah and an opportunist and, you know, really had awful things to say at the time and probably up until a couple of weeks ago.
[18:47.390 --> 18:49.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm proud of us.
[18:49.950 --> 18:51.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think our community...
[18:51.650 --> 18:59.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I went back and watched the panel that you mentioned and I really am glad that he did have an opportunity to speak.
[18:59.910 --> 19:05.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was, you know, again, it wouldn't necessarily, I think, have been my choice.
[19:06.150 --> 19:08.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: But he even addressed that when he spoke.
[19:08.570 --> 19:16.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: He said, you know, you don't know what you would do when someone says they have 100,000 or this many documents.
[19:16.310 --> 19:18.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a lot of the gist of what he was saying.
[19:18.250 --> 19:18.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is it.
[19:18.550 --> 19:27.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, that is one thing that I have said many, many years because back when I got into trouble decades ago, I was surprised by the way some people reacted.
[19:28.610 --> 19:30.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And some people reacted in very strange ways.
[19:30.950 --> 19:36.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, they would volunteer information to incriminate me.
[19:38.090 --> 19:46.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, your initial response to something like that is to condemn them and say, why would you do something like that?
[19:46.430 --> 19:56.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, you don't really know what kind of fear and panic is put into people by seeing somebody get involved with something that is potentially huge.
[19:56.150 --> 19:58.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they might get dragged along with you.
[19:59.890 --> 20:02.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they have a family, a house, something they're trying to protect.
[20:03.530 --> 20:06.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know how you are going to react unless you're faced with that.
[20:06.890 --> 20:07.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to condemn it.
[20:07.650 --> 20:10.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to say, you should not do this.
[20:11.990 --> 20:18.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, in the situation that I went through, I saw people acting in ways that I didn't think they would act.
[20:18.970 --> 20:20.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't say for sure.
[20:20.810 --> 20:23.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I know how I would react under certain situations.
[20:24.010 --> 20:27.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I can't put that on other people.
[20:27.730 --> 20:29.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, again, don't be too proud.
[20:29.430 --> 20:38.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's, I think, a lot to the exact scenario that people would even dispute in how he went about doing that.
[20:39.170 --> 20:45.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, misrepresenting the kind of confidence you can ensure in a conversation.
[20:45.890 --> 21:09.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know the chat logs and so on with Bradley, now Chelsea Manning at the time, were something that leaked out and that, you know, people were talking about having been redacted and all this kind of sort of hair splitting over, you know, his, I guess, how he came to be in a position to have this person confiding in him.
[21:09.810 --> 21:13.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was he, you know, leading them to divulge this?
[21:13.730 --> 21:17.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or was he just coincidentally in the right place?
[21:17.570 --> 21:19.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Those were the kinds of questions that we were able to ask.
[21:20.030 --> 21:29.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was our conference that took a little bit of, I guess, the, you know, opposite stance and was not popular.
[21:29.350 --> 21:33.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely, you can hear it in the audience if people go back and listen to that panel.
[21:34.710 --> 21:38.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we would have been less than had we not been able to have that discussion.
[21:38.990 --> 21:45.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: People wouldn't have been able to raise those points and ask the same questions that I was kind of throwing into the conversation here.
[21:45.970 --> 21:54.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And again, it wouldn't be my choice, but that was his point, is that not everyone, you know, has the same calculation when presented with a situation like that.
[21:54.770 --> 21:57.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that's something that is important.
[21:57.190 --> 22:08.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the other people on the panel were able to tie that into how it has affected hacking over the arc of hacking as a thing and how prevalent it is.
[22:09.390 --> 22:32.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: People divulging things they shouldn't be talking about or accessing things that they shouldn't necessarily be able to access and then, you know, having a big sort of gloating session or maybe being fearful and then thinking someone is able to protect you when you really should be,
[22:32.630 --> 22:38.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, talking to an actual lawyer or something, you know, you've stumbled upon something that's much bigger than you realize.
[22:39.130 --> 22:45.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, those are skills that I think a lot of hackers have learned through missteps over the years.
[22:45.770 --> 22:50.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the talk that Kyle's referring to is called Informants, Villains, or Heroes.
[22:50.330 --> 22:53.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find it on our YouTube channel, which is Channel2600.
[22:53.950 --> 22:56.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Look for the next hope, which is 2010.
[22:57.510 --> 23:05.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when we had this big kind of intervention, confrontation.
[23:07.190 --> 23:12.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: It really was a fascinating 90 minutes there and something I think was quite historic.
[23:13.190 --> 23:20.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's how I'd like to remember Adrian as somebody who at least had the guts to face all his critics.
[23:20.090 --> 23:22.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, all of them were there.
[23:24.570 --> 23:28.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope we can continue the conversation, the discussion.
[23:28.790 --> 23:38.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I just hope that, you know, people that didn't agree with what he did or, you know, really detest him, I hope that, you know, they can...
[23:39.150 --> 23:48.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: they can hope that he rests in peace as I think many of us are wishing and would wish on anyone regardless of what they've done in their lives.
[23:49.670 --> 23:56.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that was kind of a major event this past week in the world of hacking.
[23:56.750 --> 23:58.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, there are other things going on as well.
[23:58.910 --> 23:59.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, check this out.
[24:00.810 --> 24:08.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: 10 million players in the UK are being told to change their national lottery passwords as attackers hit online accounts.
[24:09.030 --> 24:10.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, you have a password for the lottery?
[24:10.270 --> 24:10.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the thing.
[24:11.310 --> 24:12.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's so weird.
[24:12.570 --> 24:15.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you have a password to a lottery?
[24:15.590 --> 24:17.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Millions of national lottery players...
[24:17.330 --> 24:19.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a culture I've never gotten involved in, so I know very little about it.
[24:20.390 --> 24:27.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: They've been urged to change their passwords following what parent company Camelot describes as suspicious activity involving lottery accounts.
[24:27.850 --> 24:30.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much suspicious activity in that paragraph, I don't even know where to begin.
[24:31.170 --> 24:32.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, is Camelot from Robin Hood?
[24:33.970 --> 24:35.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's... yeah, something like that.
[24:35.390 --> 24:37.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: They run the national lottery...
[24:37.450 --> 24:50.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: They insist there's been no access to course systems or databases that would affect lottery draws or prizes, but they've recommended that 10.5 million registered users change their passwords following a number of unauthorized logins.
[24:51.050 --> 24:52.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, a Camelot spokesperson...
[24:52.610 --> 24:54.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, that just sounds so silly.
[24:54.290 --> 25:07.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: A Camelot spokesperson said the account breaches are thought to be the result of credential stuffing, a type of cyber attack where previously stolen account details are entered into other websites in the hope that the victim uses the same username and password.
[25:07.830 --> 25:18.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so if you find, you know, when you're hacking into the lottery, then you might want to try on someone's cable bill or something and see if they use the same password and then you have access to that.
[25:18.910 --> 25:24.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it basically means the affected national lottery users have previously had their details stolen elsewhere and shared among cybercriminals.
[25:25.390 --> 25:33.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: In an email sent to registered users, Camelot said it uncovered suspicious activity on some accounts as part of regular security monitoring.
[25:34.110 --> 25:37.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, cyber attackers are believed to have gained access to up to 150 accounts.
[25:37.970 --> 25:38.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, that's it?
[25:38.890 --> 25:39.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: 150 accounts?
[25:39.670 --> 25:47.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, you know, in this country, when you have your credit file access, it's with like another 150 million in people.
[25:48.130 --> 25:49.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is nothing.
[25:49.790 --> 25:50.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is really nothing.
[25:50.710 --> 25:55.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: But enough for them to notify the people, I suppose.
[25:57.670 --> 26:03.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Notify them because their gambling account is not functional.
[26:03.350 --> 26:03.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[26:03.830 --> 26:07.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they need to establish new credentials for their gambling account?
[26:08.070 --> 26:08.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess...
[26:08.790 --> 26:10.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I still don't know why you need a password for this.
[26:10.370 --> 26:11.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I really don't know how it works.
[26:11.830 --> 26:12.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I think this is?
[26:12.870 --> 26:18.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like those video gambling systems you see sometimes, or, you know, the...
[26:19.110 --> 26:19.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[26:19.710 --> 26:22.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: We often see them in cities that sometimes like a...
[26:23.930 --> 26:24.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: just a...
[26:25.570 --> 26:31.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: like a line of slots or some kind of booth where you submit a bet and then you watch it on the TVs.
[26:31.910 --> 26:32.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Great fun, yeah.
[26:32.370 --> 26:39.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's really just a bunch of guys in there like drinking beers and smoking cigarettes and stuffing money into machines and stuff.
[26:39.490 --> 26:40.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: The things people do for fun.
[26:40.650 --> 26:48.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: But maybe this Camelot, maybe it's like a brand of video gambling machine that then you bring your login...
[26:48.110 --> 26:48.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: This makes no sense.
[26:49.010 --> 26:49.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: That makes no sense at all.
[26:49.850 --> 26:53.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm tired of making up a hypothetical to make their business model sound reasonable.
[26:53.210 --> 26:54.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's move on to a better story.
[26:54.870 --> 27:03.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: How about travel site Orbitz, which as we all know is owned by Expedia, said a legacy travel booking platform was likely hacked last year.
[27:03.970 --> 27:04.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Likely hacked.
[27:04.850 --> 27:06.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: They think it may have been hacked, but we're not sure.
[27:07.570 --> 27:08.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, who knows?
[27:08.530 --> 27:10.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something old that no one's supposed to use anymore.
[27:11.650 --> 27:14.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And close to two years of customer data was exposed.
[27:14.930 --> 27:24.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the company disclosed the hack yesterday, saying it discovered earlier this month that a hacker may have infiltrated the platform between October and December of last year.
[27:25.450 --> 27:35.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Orbitz said the hacker accessed customer names, birth dates, physical and email addresses, and credit card information for customers who made purchases between January 2016 and December 2017.
[27:36.770 --> 27:39.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, quite a bit of time there.
[27:39.830 --> 27:46.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Orbitz added that it has identified and remediated the incident, which affected 880,000 customer payment cards.
[27:46.710 --> 27:47.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that's more like it.
[27:47.910 --> 27:52.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Orbitz said it has not found evidence that the hacker downloaded anyone's personal information from the platform.
[27:52.870 --> 27:53.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: But wait a minute.
[27:54.150 --> 28:06.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no evidence that anything was downloaded, but they say the hacker accessed customer names, birth dates, physical email addresses, and credit card information for customers making purchases over a two-year period.
[28:07.390 --> 28:12.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Those two statements don't necessarily line up in my eyes.
[28:13.210 --> 28:15.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did somebody access this or did they not?
[28:15.290 --> 28:16.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: If they didn't download it, yeah, okay.
[28:16.810 --> 28:20.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean they still didn't have access to it in one way or another.
[28:20.830 --> 28:23.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it seems like they're trying to get it both ways here.
[28:24.790 --> 28:31.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, the company says it has enhanced security of the compromised platform, meaning they probably just turned it off, made it not accessible anymore.
[28:32.570 --> 28:34.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the current website was not involved.
[28:34.450 --> 28:35.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
[28:35.310 --> 28:36.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's one of these stories.
[28:36.210 --> 28:37.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it good news or bad news?
[28:37.130 --> 28:37.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to tell.
[28:38.810 --> 28:40.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: So can you read that section again?
[28:40.310 --> 28:45.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: They did not verify if any of the data had been taken by anybody, but it was available?
[28:45.510 --> 28:51.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: They say a hacker, of course, you know, they don't know what the person does for hobbies.
[28:51.290 --> 28:52.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: It could have been an auto mechanic.
[28:52.590 --> 28:53.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know.
[28:53.110 --> 28:55.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's basically you leave your system wide open.
[28:55.450 --> 28:57.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody can access it, not just hackers.
[28:57.370 --> 28:57.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[28:57.830 --> 29:08.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: But basically they say this hacker accessed all this private information for a two-year period, but somehow there's no indication that anyone downloaded anything.
[29:08.950 --> 29:11.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're saying nothing happened and a lot happened.
[29:12.370 --> 29:19.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that gives them a really wide range of like incident management or like their like crisis mitigation.
[29:20.410 --> 29:22.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it could be really big or it could be nothing.
[29:23.050 --> 29:23.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[29:23.210 --> 29:25.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: How many customer names were accessed?
[29:25.390 --> 29:25.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us that.
[29:26.290 --> 29:30.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're saying something like 880,000 customer payment cards are affected.
[29:30.450 --> 29:34.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but how many, if you know what this person did, how many did this person access?
[29:34.730 --> 29:36.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: You say they didn't download anything.
[29:36.330 --> 29:37.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where's the story here?
[29:37.570 --> 29:38.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: What did they do then?
[29:38.330 --> 29:54.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the proverbial hacker on his bed is a lot like that's a distinct viewer of that data than perhaps a corporate entity or private entity or an organization of some kind, criminal or not.
[29:54.750 --> 29:58.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, maybe they are the ones that viewed it.
[29:58.290 --> 30:14.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: They would have much different, I think, attitudes towards using and how to exploit that data than the hacker on a bed that's, you know, just breaking into things errantly, you know, seeing what he can come up with just from a hotel or something.
[30:15.790 --> 30:19.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that they can come up with quite a bit, quite a lot of interesting things.
[30:19.390 --> 30:23.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I would want way more detail, you know, I mean, it's, what are we dealing with here?
[30:24.110 --> 30:28.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: If my info is in there, I would want to know, like, was that a state actor?
[30:28.430 --> 30:32.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was that, you know, hacker is kind of a catch-all.
[30:32.350 --> 30:33.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: It just sounds like bad guy.
[30:33.730 --> 30:38.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, there may be a story that that you like a little better than this.
[30:42.590 --> 30:50.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's part of our hack of the week that somehow fell off the show while we were gone and now it's back.
[30:51.570 --> 30:53.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And tonight we have a hack of the week.
[30:54.950 --> 30:55.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not me.
[30:56.110 --> 30:57.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't hack anything.
[30:57.450 --> 30:58.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you sure about that?
[30:58.610 --> 30:59.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm positive.
[31:00.090 --> 31:02.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, the hack of the week.
[31:02.450 --> 31:03.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here to learn.
[31:04.630 --> 31:09.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: See, when, when we started this, that's enough.
[31:09.450 --> 31:09.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[31:10.050 --> 31:13.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: When we started this, it was, it was our hacks.
[31:13.310 --> 31:14.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was things that we did.
[31:14.170 --> 31:17.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we expanded a little bit because, well, we just are too busy right now.
[31:18.230 --> 31:21.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: But apparently, modern yachts are now vulnerable to hackers.
[31:21.610 --> 31:22.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's the latest target.
[31:23.330 --> 31:25.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's our hack of the week is, is modern yachts.
[31:25.950 --> 31:27.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of a, kind of a general thing.
[31:27.510 --> 31:31.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anything that is considered to be modern these days is, is usually equipped with the latest high-tech devices.
[31:31.810 --> 31:32.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: We can agree on that.
[31:32.610 --> 31:37.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, these devices are connected to the Internet, the center of all potential threats.
[31:38.070 --> 31:43.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, according to the latest findings, modern yachts contain a pack of Internet of Things devices.
[31:43.890 --> 31:50.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this pack consists of switches and routers which have an Internet connection and therefore can easily be hacked.
[31:50.310 --> 31:56.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And thanks to their ability to connect to the Internet through feature devices, yachts are facing potential security problems.
[31:56.290 --> 32:02.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's due to various technical factors, unprotected Internet connections, navigation, infotainment systems.
[32:02.530 --> 32:07.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're usually connected to the same network as other yachts technologies feature.
[32:08.610 --> 32:13.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some were developed before modern security standards so they might not completely cope.
[32:13.730 --> 32:18.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, basically, the statement from this is that yachts generally have a vulnerable onboard network.
[32:19.090 --> 32:27.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that network can include everything from GPS, radar, autopilot, vessel, traffic service, all kinds of different control systems.
[32:28.110 --> 32:32.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: They contain cameras, engine control, monitoring, depth sounders, and more.
[32:33.130 --> 32:39.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: All features of the yachts network are connected through a bus based on the plug-and-play NMEA standards.
[32:40.630 --> 32:43.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Electronic yacht tools are not constantly connected to the Internet.
[32:43.950 --> 32:47.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, even when they're offline, there is still a risk of a potential hacker attack.
[32:48.390 --> 32:54.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: These potential threats include problems such as GPS jamming, AI, and GPS spoofing.
[32:55.250 --> 32:57.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some have already happened.
[32:57.310 --> 33:03.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you're on a yacht or you're thinking of getting a yacht, this is something to worry about because we're here to bring you more things to worry about.
[33:05.550 --> 33:13.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if the yachting set are really people we should be too sympathetic for.
[33:13.630 --> 33:17.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they should just get another couple routers and switches.
[33:17.150 --> 33:25.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kyle, but let's say you're in a bay or something and you're just minding your own business swimming and the yacht's out of control heading right towards you because somebody hacked it.
[33:25.690 --> 33:27.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, do you think maybe that's something you should panic about?
[33:28.710 --> 33:30.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, but I still don't have sympathy.
[33:30.610 --> 33:32.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, their yacht is unsecure.
[33:32.710 --> 33:48.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, but it does speak to design being really about getting things done, adding features, making it something you can sell as a product, but the entirety of the security as an afterthought.
[33:49.070 --> 33:50.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, let's talk about cryptocurrency then.
[33:51.710 --> 33:54.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: A Department of Citrus employee was arrested at...
[33:55.350 --> 33:55.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: A what?
[33:55.950 --> 33:58.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: A Department of Citrus employee?
[33:58.010 --> 33:59.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: They have that in Florida?
[33:59.150 --> 34:00.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: A Department of Citrus?
[34:00.530 --> 34:01.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[34:01.670 --> 34:02.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[34:02.210 --> 34:02.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a thing?
[34:03.810 --> 34:06.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, I just rolled right over that without even thinking what I was saying.
[34:07.050 --> 34:08.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: A Department of Citrus employee.
[34:08.930 --> 34:11.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll come back to that.
[34:11.390 --> 34:15.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: He was arrested after he used state computers to produce virtual currency for himself.
[34:16.850 --> 34:19.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
[34:19.330 --> 34:19.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of them.
[34:20.170 --> 34:21.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of that department.
[34:22.070 --> 34:29.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Matthew McDermott of Davenport was the information technology manager for the Florida Department of Citrus.
[34:30.410 --> 34:30.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[34:31.770 --> 34:34.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: The agency that oversees the state's citrus industry.
[34:34.510 --> 34:35.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got that part.
[34:35.490 --> 34:35.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[34:36.030 --> 34:36.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, AP.
[34:37.350 --> 34:45.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: According to FDLE agents, he used several computers in the Department of Citrus to mine for Bitcoin and Litecoin.
[34:46.530 --> 34:52.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: A mining pool or team is used to solve mathematical equations in an effort to mine the virtual currency and win a reward.
[34:53.170 --> 34:56.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: They say the pool combines its resources to help offset costs.
[34:56.650 --> 34:57.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: that's kind of what happens.
[34:57.710 --> 35:02.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: But basically, mining for cryptocurrency requires extensive computing power.
[35:02.730 --> 35:09.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Utility bills for the department jumped by more than 40% between October 2017 and January 2017.
[35:10.090 --> 35:10.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait a minute.
[35:10.830 --> 35:11.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you do that?
[35:11.870 --> 35:14.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're going backwards if they go...
[35:14.270 --> 35:16.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Between October 2017 and January 2017?
[35:17.210 --> 35:17.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[35:18.330 --> 35:20.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: At a cost of about $825.
[35:20.730 --> 35:24.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what their entire utility bill was for the Department of Citrus.
[35:25.170 --> 35:25.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: $825.
[35:26.370 --> 35:26.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not bad.
[35:26.850 --> 35:27.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not that bad.
[35:28.090 --> 35:28.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[35:29.950 --> 35:35.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: McDermott also spent more than $22,000 using a state purchasing card between July and December.
[35:35.730 --> 35:37.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what years those are.
[35:37.610 --> 35:39.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Between July 2017 and December 1942.
[35:39.870 --> 35:40.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[35:40.910 --> 35:49.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that seems like more of a story right there that he used a state purchasing card for buying graphic processing units.
[35:49.830 --> 35:50.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: 24 of them.
[35:51.170 --> 35:53.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And those are often used to mine for cryptocurrencies.
[35:54.030 --> 35:54.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Charged with grand theft.
[35:55.030 --> 35:55.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Official misconduct.
[35:55.790 --> 35:57.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Taking to Polk County Jail.
[35:58.030 --> 35:59.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bail set $5,000.
[35:59.730 --> 36:01.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's pretty much enough numbers for tonight.
[36:02.870 --> 36:03.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[36:04.230 --> 36:04.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[36:04.790 --> 36:05.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what's happening.
[36:05.770 --> 36:15.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, we said we were going to take phone calls and we intend to do that because we are talking about all kinds of issues tonight including the March for Our Lives coming up in just a few days.
[36:16.470 --> 36:19.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Saturday to be The 24th.
[36:19.270 --> 36:20.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: The 24th of March.
[36:21.390 --> 36:31.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to talk to us you want to ask us any questions about that or anything else if you have information to provide our phone number is 347-335-0818.
[36:31.410 --> 36:35.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the 347 area code which some people don't know is a thing.
[36:37.410 --> 36:38.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: 335-0818.
[36:38.770 --> 36:43.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Country code one if you're outside the United States let's take our first phone call.
[36:43.290 --> 36:43.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[36:43.910 --> 36:44.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on Off The Hook.
[36:45.290 --> 36:45.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[36:46.110 --> 36:46.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[36:47.070 --> 36:47.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[36:47.710 --> 36:53.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm talking about Yachts Online some refrigerators are online.
[36:53.410 --> 36:54.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, refrigerators are online.
[36:54.950 --> 36:55.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're right.
[36:55.450 --> 36:55.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[36:55.770 --> 37:02.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you want to find some refrigerators that are online you go to Shodan.io Do you know about that site?
[37:03.030 --> 37:03.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[37:03.690 --> 37:05.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of it but tell us all about it.
[37:05.450 --> 37:05.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[37:06.090 --> 37:09.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you search for it's a search engine for vulnerabilities.
[37:10.550 --> 37:37.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: So if I wanted to find some refrigerators online I would type GBCK I forgot why that's the thing to type but if you type GBCK press enter you will come up with some I think most of them are GE refrigerators but probably not just GE that are connected to the Internet and they're running SSH Ubuntu 14 version 14 something.
[37:37.910 --> 37:40.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you access somebody's refrigerator what can you do?
[37:41.350 --> 37:46.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, maybe you can find out what's for dinner tonight and see if you can get invited.
[37:46.710 --> 37:46.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: What?
[37:47.690 --> 37:51.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, tell me what is the advantage of having a refrigerator connected to the Internet?
[37:52.030 --> 38:00.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess if you're not sure what you want to eat you can from remote from at work you're at work or something to me there is no advantage but I'm just guessing.
[38:00.750 --> 38:04.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay I guess you can see if you have a carton of milk in there or is there a camera that will tell you that?
[38:04.450 --> 38:05.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Something like that.
[38:05.570 --> 38:07.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't know if it's full how can you tell?
[38:07.870 --> 38:09.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: You don't know if it's what?
[38:09.370 --> 38:11.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: If it's full or empty you can't really tell.
[38:11.670 --> 38:13.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, not yet.
[38:13.050 --> 38:13.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe there's a scale.
[38:13.850 --> 38:15.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe one day they'll have that.
[38:15.490 --> 38:42.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is it's a component think of a larger system where you know your groceries are sent from a distribution center because your fridge notifies it it's a part of a bigger system that is yes an ideal but certainly functionally not exactly what we have now now you just have a vulnerable fridge in your house to say nothing of the fact that it could be spying on you or someone could exploit it to spy
[38:42.010 --> 38:43.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: on you to watch you.
[38:43.510 --> 39:03.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see a situation like this I think we have the obligation to hack these things to show the vulnerabilities it's a refrigerator for God's sake okay so you turn it off or something like that you're teaching the person a lesson it's not costing anyone their lives or anything like that but it's kind of silly for us to run into these things without question without realizing what the risks are now
[39:03.290 --> 39:12.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've said it before I'll say it again these things are a lot of fun they're great to play with but just embracing them blindly is very very foolish Well, I agree.
[39:12.470 --> 39:13.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Totally agree.
[39:13.390 --> 39:15.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, thanks for the info on that.
[39:15.730 --> 39:16.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, very good.
[39:16.390 --> 39:16.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[39:17.030 --> 39:19.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I mentioned on that site you can find all kinds of other things, too.
[39:19.830 --> 39:22.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking for baby monitors, you can go for that.
[39:22.510 --> 39:23.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that right, Dan?
[39:23.150 --> 39:23.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've looked at it a little bit.
[39:24.070 --> 39:25.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dan, you're maybe a little more familiar.
[39:25.790 --> 39:26.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: You've played with it.
[39:26.550 --> 39:30.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, they have an API, so it makes it really easy to find insecure anything.
[39:31.970 --> 39:35.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think Shodan originally got famous for finding webcams.
[39:35.690 --> 39:50.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so one of the projects I've been working on in like the past week was using the Shodan API to just instantly pull a variety of open webcams on the Internet without having to know anything about how it works, which is crazy how easy it is for anyone to find these insecure.
[39:50.050 --> 39:57.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like making a little webcam TV station where people can just flip between webcams while watching them like, that's great.
[39:57.450 --> 39:58.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's a cool project.
[39:58.150 --> 40:03.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Without saying anything incriminating, any of us, can you tell us some of the things that you might have been able to see?
[40:04.730 --> 40:07.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I can tell you that there's been a spider involved.
[40:09.050 --> 40:09.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[40:09.770 --> 40:11.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen some spiders and...
[40:11.630 --> 40:12.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to you, caller.
[40:12.850 --> 40:13.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to you.
[40:13.350 --> 40:14.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll just pick up the phone.
[40:15.790 --> 40:20.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: But is there anything that you might have seen that the person would not have wanted you to see?
[40:21.550 --> 40:25.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: I did see one office building and I could see workers.
[40:25.250 --> 40:34.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't want to incriminate myself too much here, but the particular webcam would allow you to move the webcam from the browser.
[40:34.870 --> 40:35.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's PTZ.
[40:36.410 --> 40:37.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: It has the controls in the...
[40:37.590 --> 40:43.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: You were able to control it from probably hundreds of miles away, which is just ridiculous.
[40:43.350 --> 40:44.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thousands of miles away if you have access.
[40:45.210 --> 40:46.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take another phone call.
[40:46.350 --> 40:47.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[40:47.730 --> 40:48.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, yes.
[40:48.250 --> 40:48.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[40:48.690 --> 40:50.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just have a very quick question.
[40:51.270 --> 41:01.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Last time on the show, you discussed the problem with Verizon for the migration from copper line to fiber optics.
[41:01.650 --> 41:01.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[41:01.710 --> 41:08.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I wonder if you know how the question about senior citizens stand.
[41:09.770 --> 41:15.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do they have a right to force senior citizens to switch from copper to fiber optic?
[41:16.850 --> 41:28.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, honestly, I don't know the answer to that because things change based on where you are and what legislation has come down in the last, literally, couple of weeks.
[41:28.530 --> 41:40.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was informed over the last few months that, in fact, Verizon can do this, that they can migrate people off of copper onto something else.
[41:41.110 --> 41:47.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: There has been resistance to it, and I understand that it might not be moving ahead as forcefully as it was.
[41:47.370 --> 41:58.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it is allowed, probably the deal is it must be equal to or greater than as far as what they replace your existing service with.
[41:58.410 --> 42:07.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's probably where people are probably a little frustrated because they want similar features that you just can't offer with fiber optics.
[42:07.710 --> 42:14.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, the ability for it to work in an emergency for longer than the period of a small battery.
[42:15.450 --> 42:23.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't have that with the old copper line or you were able to endure with no batteries because the copper lines had plenty of power.
[42:23.370 --> 42:28.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's those things I think people are saying, well, you know, if you give me a wireless phone, that's not the same.
[42:29.130 --> 42:29.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not the same.
[42:30.070 --> 42:32.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's I think there's a valid argument.
[42:32.450 --> 42:38.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of senior citizens, they see that see the point of that argument and would agree.
[42:38.650 --> 42:48.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: So at this point, I would look for people getting together and maybe there's more pressure to be put on the Public Utility Commission to advocate for these people.
[42:48.950 --> 43:01.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: So regardless, though, of of what the situation is locally or nationally, I think we can take some inspiration from what we've been talking about, the March for Our Lives actions taking place on Saturday.
[43:01.470 --> 43:09.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have a bunch of kids there that were told that they couldn't do anything about the situation and they're doing something anyway and they're going to change the situation.
[43:09.730 --> 43:15.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Same thing can happen in this situation where senior citizens are told, no, you can't have your copper line anymore.
[43:15.330 --> 43:18.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to go the new way, even though it's more inconvenient for you.
[43:18.170 --> 43:19.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's more profitable for us.
[43:19.670 --> 43:21.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's nothing you can do about it.
[43:21.210 --> 43:34.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not true, because if enough of these people get together and voice outrage by calling into radio shows, by calling public service commissions or elected representatives, those voices raised will change whatever policy is in effect.
[43:34.790 --> 43:36.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there have to be enough of them and they have to be loud.
[43:36.850 --> 43:47.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I have called the commission for the public service commission, New York State, and also FCC.
[43:47.810 --> 43:55.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they told me that they have been approved to change it and nothing, you know, we have no word whatever.
[43:56.350 --> 43:58.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, definitely look at what's going on in your neighborhood.
[43:59.030 --> 44:06.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Talk to people, your neighbors, your community representatives to find out what the plan is for your area.
[44:06.310 --> 44:22.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because as Emmanuel said, it is very, very much, it has a lot to do with the specific plan for your area and what they're trying to do with the main lines, and then how they're breaking that out into the community and into buildings and, and ultimately people's apartments,
[44:22.770 --> 44:25.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, that last, that last leg of the connectivity.
[44:26.830 --> 44:31.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Get more information to find out what the plan is and see if there is any recourse.
[44:31.430 --> 44:39.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: There may be a business in the neighborhood that is keeping copper for, for some sort of a system that, that requires it.
[44:39.410 --> 44:42.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and they're paying to have a private line.
[44:42.510 --> 44:53.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a complex of some sort could get a couple of those copper lines and get private service for the remaining people that wish to continue with it.
[44:53.130 --> 45:11.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's, it's going to be going to have to be creative and it's going to have to be loud and really, really standing up against the, the overwhelming interest of Verizon to move to this platform where they can create more value by adding products and features.
[45:11.590 --> 45:15.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you name it, all the new video, everything is going to go over this 5G.
[45:16.050 --> 45:31.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that if, if there are more people calling, voicing the outrage or the questions that you're voicing, that would be something that might stave off what Kyle's talking about, where you have to look into alternatives.
[45:31.350 --> 45:35.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that will make them rethink what it is that they're doing in the first place.
[45:35.390 --> 45:36.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Payphones, another example.
[45:36.790 --> 45:40.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: If, if, if a thousand people called and said, why are you taking away payphones?
[45:41.550 --> 45:42.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Payphones wouldn't be taken away.
[45:42.830 --> 45:45.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: If, if two people call, it's not going to make much of a difference.
[45:45.430 --> 45:49.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say the best thing to do is get as many people involved as possible.
[45:49.290 --> 45:51.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Keep calling, keep trying, don't take no for an answer.
[45:51.530 --> 45:52.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: That is the problem, sir.
[45:52.790 --> 45:53.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the problem.
[45:53.890 --> 45:57.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do I have to turn to a community board here or what?
[45:57.330 --> 45:58.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, can't hurt.
[45:58.530 --> 45:59.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can't hurt to get them involved.
[46:00.130 --> 46:00.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[46:00.830 --> 46:02.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's nobody who shouldn't be involved in this.
[46:02.790 --> 46:03.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[46:03.750 --> 46:04.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right?
[46:04.370 --> 46:05.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thank you very much.
[46:05.730 --> 46:06.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good luck.
[46:06.410 --> 46:07.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[46:07.530 --> 46:10.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's, it's like, we have this conversation all the time about technology.
[46:12.130 --> 46:14.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Embrace the new, but don't forget the old.
[46:14.130 --> 46:22.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, we're doing this massive project of encoding, um, uh, compact discs for another radio station, uh, close to, um, a hundred thousand CDs.
[46:23.110 --> 46:26.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and we use, uh, we use, um, disc robots to do this.
[46:26.870 --> 46:29.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now we have one robot that we've had now.
[46:29.910 --> 46:31.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: How long have we had that thing?
[46:31.130 --> 46:32.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's been well over a decade.
[46:33.150 --> 46:34.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is slow as molasses.
[46:35.190 --> 46:36.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is so slow.
[46:36.450 --> 46:38.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: It takes about 20 minutes to encode a single CD.
[46:38.730 --> 46:41.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have the fast robot, which can do a CD in about two minutes.
[46:42.450 --> 46:43.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[46:43.250 --> 46:43.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[46:43.710 --> 46:46.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, uh, throw out the old one, use the new one.
[46:46.370 --> 46:49.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, because the new one jams because it's moving so fast.
[46:49.650 --> 46:54.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: It takes two CDs at once, uh, gets confused, crashes into itself.
[46:54.430 --> 46:55.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Has a cheaper picking mechanism.
[46:56.190 --> 46:56.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's cheaper.
[46:56.770 --> 46:57.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's more economical.
[46:57.990 --> 47:00.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's more modern, but it's more temperamental.
[47:00.250 --> 47:00.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[47:00.670 --> 47:05.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: So now if, if you leave them running, which one do you think finishes more CDs?
[47:05.490 --> 47:08.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: The slow one, because it just plods ahead.
[47:08.490 --> 47:11.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It takes forever, but it doesn't break down.
[47:11.170 --> 47:12.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just keeps going.
[47:12.290 --> 47:14.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's good in the fast one.
[47:14.550 --> 47:19.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're sitting right there, you can babysit it and it'll, it'll, uh, get a lot done.
[47:19.150 --> 47:22.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're not, uh, the slow one is going to be a lot more productive.
[47:22.190 --> 47:24.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Same thing with new and old technology.
[47:24.570 --> 47:26.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
[47:26.570 --> 47:28.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: But this, this system still being sort of designed.
[47:28.790 --> 47:47.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I, it may not be a foregone conclusion that this, um, this type of cabling is, is completely retired, but it really has to be a comprehensive, uh, uh, request from users of those, uh, uh, service of those lines to change and, and get, I guess, the,
[47:47.990 --> 47:55.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: the, uh, impetus to remove them off the table and, and maybe have Verizon looking at it in a little bit different way.
[47:55.730 --> 47:58.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's where people's voices come in.
[47:58.250 --> 48:08.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: When they share the advantages and, uh, what's possible, then maybe the telephone company will see it as a possibility instead of, uh, just, uh, something of the past.
[48:08.130 --> 48:23.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: If, if we can get the same quality, um, that, uh, uh, copper lines had on, on new fiber optic lines, uh, voice quality, um, uh, basically duplex communication where you can, you can talk and somebody else is talking at the same time and you both hear each other.
[48:23.750 --> 48:31.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not what we have today where only one person can be hurt at, at, at a time, uh, and also being able to stay up during power outages.
[48:31.550 --> 48:36.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is the big attraction of a copper line because, uh, central offices have generators.
[48:36.030 --> 48:37.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: They can last for weeks.
[48:37.850 --> 48:44.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, when you have, uh, a fiber optic line go out, the, uh, the little tiny battery they give you might last a day.
[48:45.010 --> 48:46.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: They need to fix that.
[48:46.390 --> 48:50.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: They need to come up with a plan where it is just as rugged as the old fashioned lines.
[48:50.650 --> 48:54.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then, you know, they might have something that can actually replace the old technology.
[48:55.090 --> 48:58.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: But until then, it's really something that should work in, in conjunction with it.
[48:58.950 --> 48:59.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take another phone call.
[48:59.710 --> 48:59.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[49:00.110 --> 49:00.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on off the hook.
[49:01.170 --> 49:01.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, hi.
[49:02.010 --> 49:08.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: I actually happen to know a lot about this because I've been fighting my own, uh, private war with Verizon.
[49:08.970 --> 49:13.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: It sure sounds like you're on a landline because I hear that kind of static that, uh, landlines would give you.
[49:13.270 --> 49:23.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And thank you, Verizon, for that because they're letting the box to which this, uh, landline is, is, uh, attached in the heart of Soho, degenerate.
[49:23.870 --> 49:29.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're, this, this sound we're hearing is Verizon pressuring you to move to fiber optic.
[49:29.870 --> 49:30.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[49:30.290 --> 49:32.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not just me, the community at large.
[49:32.190 --> 49:34.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we know why they want to do this.
[49:34.470 --> 49:39.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're pushing fires, which costs, you know, I don't even know how much money.
[49:39.650 --> 49:44.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have a regular DSL line, which, as you know, travels well on copper wire.
[49:44.790 --> 49:46.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I want to hold on to it.
[49:46.650 --> 49:48.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a matter of being a Luddite.
[49:48.930 --> 49:52.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have the kind of service that I need when it works.
[49:53.010 --> 49:54.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's all I want to pay for.
[49:55.070 --> 49:55.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.
[49:55.270 --> 50:01.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want this enhanced, you know, we control your life, uh, through entertainment and, and, and everything else.
[50:01.730 --> 50:05.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, when, when, when you don't blindly accept something new, you are called a Luddite.
[50:05.370 --> 50:09.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that, that is something that is so annoying to me, uh, because I love new technology.
[50:09.430 --> 50:10.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: I play with new technology all the time.
[50:10.990 --> 50:20.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And to be called that by somebody, because I don't accept the latest Gmail gimmick without question, uh, which, and invariably, you wind up seeing the price that's paid down the road.
[50:20.630 --> 50:22.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Look at all the Facebook problems we have now.
[50:22.890 --> 50:25.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: All the people who jumped out, jumped at that without looking.
[50:25.570 --> 50:27.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there, there's always disadvantages.
[50:27.610 --> 50:28.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's always a price.
[50:28.650 --> 50:31.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, you should never be discounted like that.
[50:31.170 --> 50:34.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, that my rule of thumb is, I use the technology.
[50:35.070 --> 50:37.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want the technology to use me.
[50:37.610 --> 50:44.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as you say, you know, Facebook is, is a typical, uh, incident of what can go wrong and did go wrong.
[50:44.670 --> 50:48.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because now, you know, I've always been completely refractory.
[50:48.530 --> 50:51.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: I do not want to be on Facebook, period.
[50:51.730 --> 50:53.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now I know why.
[50:53.410 --> 50:57.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I knew why from my own perspective to begin with.
[50:57.250 --> 51:00.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, you know, now we have confirmation.
[51:01.030 --> 51:19.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: But to go back to Verizon, I have been in an endless battle with them because regularly, and especially when somebody comes to, uh, touch one of the 600 lines that are attached to this box that serve the entire neighborhood, something happens.
[51:19.830 --> 51:23.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the noise that you hear now gets a lot worse.
[51:23.450 --> 51:25.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or I can't even use my phone altogether.
[51:25.930 --> 51:30.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they have given me this, you know, wireless phone, et cetera, et cetera.
[51:30.570 --> 51:37.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I've had extensive conversations with sympathetic and more reasonable, especially the technicians.
[51:37.450 --> 51:38.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I've learned the following.
[51:38.930 --> 51:53.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: One, the mofo, I think you can say mofo on the radio, who is the head chief executive of Verizon now, comes from their wireless division and has declared a personal war against copper wire.
[51:53.710 --> 51:54.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[51:54.190 --> 51:55.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what he wants to do.
[51:55.530 --> 51:59.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: He wants to do it away with it because that's what he likes.
[51:59.630 --> 52:00.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who is this guy?
[52:00.690 --> 52:01.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I don't remember.
[52:01.970 --> 52:04.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: They told me the name, but I'm sure it's public information.
[52:04.170 --> 52:13.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can find it, and you can even find these pronunciamientos, you know, where it says in public forum exactly what I told you, that, you know, it's obsolete technology.
[52:13.250 --> 52:14.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have to do away with it.
[52:14.970 --> 52:18.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Meanwhile, the police precincts, guess what?
[52:18.990 --> 52:29.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Only use copper wiring for precisely the same reason that he just enunciated, which I have touched with my own hands during Sunday, during the blackouts.
[52:29.050 --> 52:40.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because there is a line of people outside my door, all community people, to make a phone call because I'm the only one who still has a line that works when everything else goes down.
[52:41.110 --> 52:45.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which is precisely the reason why I want to continue with the current setup.
[52:45.730 --> 52:53.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Verizon is totally irresponsible pursuing only profits and not minding what could go wrong and letting people make their own choice.
[52:54.830 --> 52:56.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you've said it.
[52:56.170 --> 52:58.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that basically sums the whole thing up.
[52:58.770 --> 53:01.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: You should have the right to make your own choice.
[53:01.130 --> 53:08.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I commend you, caller, for standing up for your rights here and refusing to cave, despite this horrible noise.
[53:08.370 --> 53:10.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the other thing... exactly.
[53:10.410 --> 53:15.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I have another topic, if you don't mind, because, as you can see, I'm very outspoken.
[53:15.230 --> 53:16.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we only have one minute left, so make it quick.
[53:16.950 --> 53:17.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[53:17.430 --> 53:20.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, the one thing I want to say is that you're absolutely right.
[53:21.070 --> 53:22.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: People have to come together on this.
[53:23.050 --> 53:29.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if we don't, Verizon will still roll us and just ignore us and continue what they want to do.
[53:29.590 --> 53:31.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not enough to go to the community board.
[53:32.010 --> 53:33.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: We really have to come together.
[53:33.390 --> 53:36.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe you can be a hub for a community action on this.
[53:36.450 --> 53:36.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[53:36.890 --> 53:38.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just throwing out an idea.
[53:38.130 --> 53:46.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can certainly come to 2600 meetings, take place at the atrium every first Friday here in New York City at 53rd and 3rd.
[53:46.650 --> 53:51.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there are all kinds of other forums as well where you can meet similar-minded people and organize.
[53:52.050 --> 53:54.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe this lady should come, too, and everybody else should come.
[53:54.750 --> 53:55.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[53:55.330 --> 53:55.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[53:55.950 --> 53:57.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was an interest in this.
[53:57.190 --> 53:58.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for your call, and good luck.
[53:58.430 --> 53:58.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: One more thing.
[53:58.950 --> 54:00.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: One more thing, if you don't mind.
[54:00.170 --> 54:00.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Quickly.
[54:01.310 --> 54:09.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, a couple of weeks ago, you started talking about the obsolescence that Internet providers are enforcing on people like me.
[54:10.050 --> 54:18.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because, you know, again, for efficiency reasons, I insist on using only Windows XP, which, in my opinion, is the best operating system ever produced.
[54:19.750 --> 54:21.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're entitled to that opinion.
[54:21.390 --> 54:22.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're entitled to that opinion.
[54:22.750 --> 54:22.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[54:22.810 --> 54:27.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the more secure, for a number of reasons which would be too long to discuss here.
[54:27.010 --> 54:27.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, yes.
[54:27.570 --> 54:44.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I have been encountering all kinds of shutdowns, first with Firefox, which I'm not using anymore, then with Chrome, and now even with Internet Explorer, which I have been, you know, in desperation using for some sites.
[54:44.090 --> 54:50.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: For example, you know, paradoxically, to access my Gmail account, I have to use Internet Explorer, which is a Microsoft.
[54:50.550 --> 54:50.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Microsoft.
[54:51.110 --> 54:52.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's the only way I can get on it.
[54:53.150 --> 54:58.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: But now, I was trying to get on YouTube, and Chrome will not let me access YouTube.
[54:58.370 --> 55:01.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, Chrome will always be the first one to kick you off of anything that's not new enough.
[55:02.110 --> 55:05.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: They want you to always be constantly updating and getting the newest thing.
[55:05.550 --> 55:07.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll open this up to other listeners.
[55:07.390 --> 55:13.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you could write in and suggest something to help this caller who wants to hang on to Windows XP.
[55:13.390 --> 55:15.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, wow.
[55:15.430 --> 55:16.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Best of luck with that.
[55:16.450 --> 55:17.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for the call.
[55:17.610 --> 55:18.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're pretty much out of time.
[55:18.610 --> 55:25.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to very quickly ask the panel, as it is here in the studio, how much old technology we embrace.
[55:25.310 --> 55:28.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Dent, you're a high school kid, but I know you have a landline, right?
[55:28.710 --> 55:29.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we do.
[55:29.610 --> 55:38.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: We've had it for years, and I only figured it out when I went downstairs with a beige box and heard a dial tone and dug through the mountain of wires that was laying there.
[55:39.350 --> 55:39.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[55:39.850 --> 55:41.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, does it have a rotary dial?
[55:42.150 --> 55:42.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: It does not.
[55:43.130 --> 55:45.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I have a rotary phone that I can plug into it.
[55:45.970 --> 55:46.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[55:46.710 --> 55:47.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.
[55:47.330 --> 55:56.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things we do at Maker Faire, we have great fun with this, is where kids come up to the van and the phone booth, and we ask them, do you know how to use the rotary dial phone?
[55:56.150 --> 55:57.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of them don't know how to use.
[55:57.910 --> 56:00.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, actually, a lot of adults don't know how to use it, either, in fairness.
[56:00.290 --> 56:01.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they want to learn.
[56:01.610 --> 56:02.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're interested in it.
[56:02.650 --> 56:06.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know you, as a high school kid, embrace old technology as well.
[56:06.930 --> 56:12.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that includes vinyl, includes copper lines, old computers.
[56:12.910 --> 56:13.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[56:13.830 --> 56:17.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's definitely a fascination around old technology.
[56:17.530 --> 56:25.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: And seeing that at Maker Faire, with the new generation, having fun on a rotary phone is really a good thing to see.
[56:25.230 --> 56:25.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[56:25.690 --> 56:27.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I totally agree with that.
[56:28.370 --> 56:31.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle, any thoughts on old technology that you want to leave us with?
[56:32.110 --> 56:35.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I, jeez, there's not enough time.
[56:35.330 --> 56:38.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: I second that, and yeah, it's...
[56:38.670 --> 56:39.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Old cars, for instance.
[56:39.990 --> 56:41.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's not everything.
[56:41.870 --> 57:02.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: For me, just with phones in general, I mean, seeing the old switching systems and how those networks were constructed and maintained, to me was very instructive as to, you know, kind of understanding what's going on with software and, you know, modern digital telecommunication systems.
[57:02.390 --> 57:05.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, and there's many other avenues.
[57:05.910 --> 57:08.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Photography would be another one for me, but I don't have enough time.
[57:08.590 --> 57:13.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: So many cool things you can do with old technology that enhance your understanding of new technology will help you design new things.
[57:13.790 --> 57:14.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what hacking is all about.
[57:15.070 --> 57:18.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Write to us, oth@2600.com, with your thoughts and opinions.
[57:18.290 --> 57:20.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, go to MarchForOurLives.com.
[57:20.750 --> 57:25.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Check out the march in your area this Saturday, and we'll talk about that, how that went next week.
[57:26.250 --> 57:28.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Until then, stay out of this...
[57:28.170 --> 57:29.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, go into the snow.
[57:29.250 --> 57:30.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just don't drive in the snow.
[57:31.530 --> 57:32.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And try to have fun.
[57:33.050 --> 57:33.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good night.
[57:41.740 --> 57:43.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good night.
[59:22.900 --> 59:43.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good night.