[00:00.000 --> 00:02.280] [SPEAKER_00]: ...of the Black Alliance for Peace.
[00:02.420 --> 00:16.340] [SPEAKER_00]: All of the countries that the United States has attacked have been people-centered, people-oriented, whether you're talking about Iraq, without getting into the internal politics, or you're talking about Libya, or you're talking about Venezuela.
[00:16.620 --> 00:23.600] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a way to defeat the emergence of socialism and a people-centered economy.
[00:23.820 --> 00:26.920] [SPEAKER_00]: This is listener-sponsored WBAI New York.
[00:31.760 --> 00:32.780] [SPEAKER_10]: Indeed it is.
[00:33.160 --> 00:34.940] [SPEAKER_10]: WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[00:35.200 --> 00:39.260] [SPEAKER_10]: It's Wednesday evening, 8 o'clock, time for Off The Hook.
[02:18.980 --> 02:20.260] [SPEAKER_10]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:20.340 --> 02:21.280] [SPEAKER_10]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:21.700 --> 02:24.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:24.160 --> 02:25.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:25.620 --> 02:25.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Firefly.
[02:26.220 --> 02:26.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[02:26.980 --> 02:27.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Kyle.
[02:27.500 --> 02:28.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, what's happening?
[02:28.340 --> 02:28.880] [SPEAKER_10]: And Voltaire.
[02:29.080 --> 02:29.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Hey.
[02:29.700 --> 02:30.600] [SPEAKER_10]: Welcome back from Vegas.
[02:30.820 --> 02:31.120] [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[02:31.520 --> 02:35.180] [SPEAKER_10]: We'll talk about some of the things that went on out there in the hour ahead.
[02:35.180 --> 02:38.780] [SPEAKER_10]: And we'll be taking phone calls in just a little bit, hopefully.
[02:40.040 --> 02:42.660] [SPEAKER_10]: So, anybody else lose their security clearance today?
[02:43.020 --> 02:46.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's not a surprise.
[02:46.260 --> 02:48.080] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you know, I saw it coming.
[02:48.560 --> 02:51.680] [SPEAKER_10]: But, yeah, just don't criticize and you'll be all right.
[02:52.100 --> 02:53.140] [SPEAKER_10]: That's what we learned.
[02:53.140 --> 03:02.360] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish he lost his clearance as punishment for his torturing people and being, instead of, like, for going into prison.
[03:02.600 --> 03:04.360] [SPEAKER_10]: But you can't lose your clearance for torturing people.
[03:04.400 --> 03:05.200] [SPEAKER_10]: That's the job.
[03:05.740 --> 03:08.160] [SPEAKER_10]: When you're head of intelligence, that's...
[03:08.160 --> 03:09.420] [SPEAKER_02]: The job isn't to torture people.
[03:09.480 --> 03:12.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I mean, it's kind of been understood over the past few years.
[03:12.400 --> 03:14.960] [SPEAKER_10]: It's hard to root for him, but in this scenario...
[03:14.960 --> 03:15.060] [SPEAKER_04]: It is, exactly.
[03:15.360 --> 03:15.600] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[03:15.800 --> 03:16.520] [SPEAKER_04]: I hear that.
[03:16.600 --> 03:17.360] [SPEAKER_04]: I fully hear that.
[03:17.500 --> 03:24.320] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, if you close yourself off to intelligence leaders, evil or good, you're kind of...
[03:24.320 --> 03:26.620] [SPEAKER_10]: You're driving without your headlights on.
[03:26.760 --> 03:28.380] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's probably not a good idea.
[03:28.560 --> 03:32.360] [SPEAKER_10]: Speaking of driving without headlights on, anybody else notice a problem with...
[03:32.360 --> 03:33.340] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I guess you guys didn't notice.
[03:33.340 --> 03:33.840] [SPEAKER_10]: You don't drive.
[03:34.040 --> 03:34.880] [SPEAKER_10]: But Waze.
[03:35.080 --> 03:37.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Boy, there's something up with Waze today.
[03:37.340 --> 03:42.280] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not really sure how it is installed on my phone.
[03:42.620 --> 03:45.000] [SPEAKER_10]: We use Waze occasionally just to see.
[03:45.340 --> 03:49.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Sometimes it takes us down the back streets of Brooklyn, you know, to save traffic.
[03:49.620 --> 03:51.540] [SPEAKER_10]: How many times have we gone through...
[03:51.540 --> 03:52.280] [SPEAKER_10]: What's that?
[03:52.280 --> 03:53.220] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not a bold-faced liar.
[03:53.480 --> 03:54.600] [SPEAKER_04]: We are so dependent.
[03:54.840 --> 03:56.800] [SPEAKER_04]: We can't not navigate without it.
[03:56.840 --> 03:57.700] [SPEAKER_04]: No, we totally can.
[03:58.040 --> 03:58.980] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like a permanent part of our...
[03:58.980 --> 03:59.480] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm just kidding.
[03:59.580 --> 04:01.840] [SPEAKER_10]: The BQE is fairly easy to navigate.
[04:01.840 --> 04:02.600] [SPEAKER_10]: But when you need it most...
[04:02.600 --> 04:03.120] [SPEAKER_10]: Sometimes...
[04:03.600 --> 04:06.780] [SPEAKER_10]: What's that industrial area we cut through sometimes, which is really awesome?
[04:08.020 --> 04:08.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Not Elmhurst.
[04:08.800 --> 04:09.920] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm trying to think of the name.
[04:10.360 --> 04:10.880] [SPEAKER_10]: It's the place...
[04:10.880 --> 04:11.500] [SPEAKER_10]: It'll come to us.
[04:11.520 --> 04:11.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it'll come.
[04:12.260 --> 04:14.060] [SPEAKER_10]: If you're in Queens, you know what we're talking about.
[04:14.100 --> 04:14.740] [SPEAKER_10]: We've often...
[04:14.740 --> 04:15.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Queens and Brooklyn.
[04:15.620 --> 04:19.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Sometimes it guides us down these one-way streets, and it's a lot of fun.
[04:19.520 --> 04:20.420] [SPEAKER_10]: It can be fun, yes.
[04:20.420 --> 04:22.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Today, though, something was different.
[04:22.980 --> 04:25.540] [SPEAKER_10]: First of all, there's all these network issues.
[04:25.700 --> 04:29.540] [SPEAKER_10]: Whenever I try to get bearings, it can't find the network.
[04:29.680 --> 04:31.960] [SPEAKER_10]: You're in the middle of a city, and you can't find the network.
[04:31.960 --> 04:32.960] [SPEAKER_10]: It doesn't make any sense.
[04:33.680 --> 04:47.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Eventually, though, it found the network, except instead of the usual clip British accent woman that we have giving us directions, it turned into this really rough-sounding male voice, which scared the crap out of me, but only for one sentence.
[04:47.400 --> 05:03.580] [SPEAKER_10]: And then it went back to her, and then something else happened where apparently a comma has been redefined as 10 seconds, because she'll say things like, in 300 meters, and then pause 10 seconds, and then tell you what to do, except you've already passed it by that point.
[05:03.820 --> 05:05.660] [SPEAKER_10]: So something weird's going on with that.
[05:05.740 --> 05:09.740] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if it's inside my own phone, or if it's something network-wise, but...
[05:09.740 --> 05:11.000] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's lots of ways to look at it.
[05:11.000 --> 05:21.480] [SPEAKER_04]: It could be the way the operating system on the phone itself is working with the network or being handed off in the progress of using those kinds of applications.
[05:21.480 --> 05:40.200] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think we probably do to test some other ones, compare, get some perspective on how these sort of online ones that are run over the network versus other standalone ones that you sort of program in advance, and then it's sort of already got the map.
[05:40.260 --> 05:45.520] [SPEAKER_04]: It seems like this is having communication difficulty with whatever service is hosting.
[05:45.720 --> 05:46.440] [SPEAKER_10]: I like Waze.
[05:46.580 --> 05:49.300] [SPEAKER_10]: I like Waze because it's always changing.
[05:49.720 --> 05:52.520] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, it'll tell you about traffic and route you around.
[05:52.980 --> 05:56.020] [SPEAKER_10]: What I don't understand about Waze is they want you to be social.
[05:56.120 --> 05:57.940] [SPEAKER_10]: They want you to be chatting with people while you're driving.
[05:58.180 --> 06:00.580] [SPEAKER_10]: And I don't know how you're supposed to do that safely.
[06:00.760 --> 06:03.900] [SPEAKER_10]: I also don't even know how you're supposed to report things safely while you're driving.
[06:04.580 --> 06:06.020] [SPEAKER_10]: People are constantly doing it.
[06:06.100 --> 06:11.460] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you know, there's one cop sitting on the side of the road, and all of a sudden there's 50 people that have reported to him, which is kind of cool.
[06:11.460 --> 06:14.740] [SPEAKER_10]: But I don't know how to do that safely, you know, without that swerving.
[06:15.220 --> 06:21.140] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's invaluable information there in that social aspect, because those things can be significant.
[06:21.140 --> 06:37.720] [SPEAKER_04]: If someone sees something that fell off a truck or whatever, the obstruction in the roadway is, getting that information so quickly, I think it would be very hard to get that from like an AM radio or another traffic news source, even if they're flying above you or whatever in their news copter.
[06:37.940 --> 06:38.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right.
[06:38.260 --> 06:45.040] [SPEAKER_10]: No, an AM radio is not going to tell you there's a car, you know, on the shoulder ahead, or there's an animal on the road, which is the kind of thing that Waze can do.
[06:45.880 --> 06:51.220] [SPEAKER_10]: But it is weird having that on your phone, not exactly knowing how it works.
[06:51.360 --> 06:58.180] [SPEAKER_10]: And just a couple of weeks ago, my phone in the middle of Waze, in fact, went black and did an update.
[06:58.500 --> 07:02.540] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, usually, you know, phones are supposed to ask you, do you want to do an update now?
[07:02.720 --> 07:03.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Do you want to do an update at all?
[07:04.280 --> 07:05.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Didn't get that.
[07:05.160 --> 07:05.860] [SPEAKER_10]: It just did it.
[07:05.940 --> 07:09.240] [SPEAKER_10]: And when it did it, it screwed up all my settings.
[07:09.240 --> 07:11.740] [SPEAKER_10]: It changed the font on the clock.
[07:11.740 --> 07:13.740] [SPEAKER_10]: It did all kinds of things I didn't want it to do.
[07:14.120 --> 07:16.100] [SPEAKER_10]: And privacy settings, gone.
[07:16.480 --> 07:20.700] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, just switch back to show me, you know, everything about you.
[07:21.080 --> 07:22.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Really resented that.
[07:22.320 --> 07:25.900] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a lot of the antithesis of, I think, how the Apple system works.
[07:26.040 --> 07:36.240] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not pushing one to the other, but I am saying that this is a distinction in how switching from device to device is managed and, you know, upgrading and that kind of thing.
[07:36.360 --> 07:38.520] [SPEAKER_04]: You would ideally want those settings.
[07:38.680 --> 07:43.660] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't want new fonts or new sounds in your operating system.
[07:43.660 --> 07:53.200] [SPEAKER_04]: So it is an undesirable, I think, side effect of just how, I think, cumbersome the Android updating method, although it's gotten better.
[07:53.320 --> 08:01.120] [SPEAKER_04]: But I would also blame a little bit T-Mobile and so in how they're implementing that overall, sort of from a general perspective.
[08:01.840 --> 08:06.420] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's certainly a lot of room for improving the way these things work.
[08:06.520 --> 08:22.620] [SPEAKER_04]: It just seems to me that the manufacturer and the mobile provider would be very interested in service and the reliability of sort of the basics of the operating system, instead of loading it up with all this extra stuff and doing these really cumbersome and lousy,
[08:22.700 --> 08:24.680] [SPEAKER_04]: poorly implemented updates.
[08:25.060 --> 08:26.980] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not in the interest of providing the service.
[08:27.140 --> 08:32.620] [SPEAKER_10]: I've noticed a trend in operating systems and phones to sort of leave the consumer behind.
[08:32.780 --> 08:34.300] [SPEAKER_10]: You don't matter as much.
[08:34.420 --> 08:35.280] [SPEAKER_10]: We have to do this.
[08:35.420 --> 08:35.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Deal with it.
[08:36.060 --> 08:37.080] [SPEAKER_10]: And everyone's doing it.
[08:37.160 --> 08:37.840] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll force it.
[08:37.860 --> 08:43.260] [SPEAKER_10]: It's like the sysadmin who would say, we're rebuilding the system now, not giving you any warning whatsoever.
[08:43.500 --> 08:44.300] [SPEAKER_10]: No choice.
[08:44.420 --> 08:45.740] [SPEAKER_10]: You lose your files, whatever.
[08:46.020 --> 08:46.880] [SPEAKER_10]: That's just the way it goes.
[08:47.140 --> 08:55.660] [SPEAKER_10]: So, you know, I have this happening with the phone where I lose settings, inconvenience without any permissions being asked.
[08:55.780 --> 08:59.520] [SPEAKER_10]: And of course, all my settings are reverted back to what they want them to be.
[09:00.060 --> 09:04.780] [SPEAKER_10]: And features are added that I didn't ask for and features are taken away that I needed.
[09:05.240 --> 09:08.720] [SPEAKER_10]: And when you talk to people about this, well, that's just the way it is.
[09:08.780 --> 09:09.720] [SPEAKER_10]: It's not the phone you bought.
[09:09.860 --> 09:11.380] [SPEAKER_10]: No, it's now a different kind of phone.
[09:12.020 --> 09:13.460] [SPEAKER_10]: And you just have to adjust.
[09:13.720 --> 09:16.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Same thing with operating systems on computers.
[09:16.760 --> 09:18.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Like Windows 10 is a perfect example of that.
[09:18.680 --> 09:19.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Ooh, prime suspect.
[09:20.200 --> 09:20.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[09:21.240 --> 09:31.740] [SPEAKER_04]: It does not function nearly the way you might expect coming from, say, a previous version of their own operating system, like XP or 7 or 8.
[09:31.900 --> 09:43.740] [SPEAKER_04]: All of a sudden, 10 starts doing this stuff where it's basically taking control, taking a lot of the power out of the administrator and doing things that are completely unexpected and very disruptive.
[09:43.980 --> 09:48.960] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, through no fault of my own, I have a machine that runs Windows 10.
[09:49.160 --> 09:49.460] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[09:49.560 --> 09:55.080] [SPEAKER_10]: And I have to tell you, it is the biggest pain in the ass because it just reboots on its own.
[09:55.300 --> 09:57.820] [SPEAKER_10]: If you're in the middle of something because it decides it wants to do that.
[09:57.980 --> 09:58.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[09:58.380 --> 09:58.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[09:58.540 --> 10:00.480] [SPEAKER_10]: You can set it so it doesn't reboot on its own.
[10:00.480 --> 10:01.680] [SPEAKER_10]: So it nags you.
[10:01.840 --> 10:08.820] [SPEAKER_10]: You can't ever make it not reboot, but you can have it say, okay, I'll do this tomorrow and then nag you the next day, et cetera, et cetera.
[10:09.080 --> 10:11.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Except sometimes it just does it anyway.
[10:12.100 --> 10:17.900] [SPEAKER_10]: And that is the trend that we're seeing with operating systems where, like I said, the consumer is left behind.
[10:18.040 --> 10:19.160] [SPEAKER_10]: You don't get a say.
[10:19.580 --> 10:21.660] [SPEAKER_10]: And we're going to have to reboot every now and then.
[10:22.300 --> 10:28.240] [SPEAKER_10]: I've used machines for a year at a time without rebooting them, having projects open, all kinds of things like that.
[10:28.340 --> 10:29.160] [SPEAKER_10]: That's how I work.
[10:29.240 --> 10:33.920] [SPEAKER_10]: But apparently, that's something that's not going to be considered for operating systems of the future.
[10:34.220 --> 10:39.820] [SPEAKER_10]: And what you're going to see more of, too, are just the equivalent of dumb terminals where everything is in the cloud.
[10:39.900 --> 10:42.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Every damn thing is in the cloud and you don't have control.
[10:42.620 --> 10:43.800] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, we see that with software.
[10:44.320 --> 10:53.160] [SPEAKER_04]: Software as a service is a trend that has found its way into operating systems and was very convenient for smartphones in general.
[10:53.360 --> 10:58.380] [SPEAKER_04]: But it is a big part of graphic design software, video, Adobe, Avid.
[10:58.580 --> 11:00.400] [SPEAKER_10]: How has that changed over the years, Avid?
[11:00.540 --> 11:01.900] [SPEAKER_10]: It used to be able to just buy it, right?
[11:01.900 --> 11:03.620] [SPEAKER_04]: It's absolutely changed a whole lot.
[11:03.700 --> 11:09.340] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is the same with Photoshop, which thankfully has a really healthy variety of alternatives right now.
[11:09.480 --> 11:12.940] [SPEAKER_04]: But video software in general was something that you owned.
[11:13.020 --> 11:14.200] [SPEAKER_04]: You had a copy of it.
[11:14.380 --> 11:17.520] [SPEAKER_04]: And you were coaxed and encouraged, hey, come along to the next version.
[11:17.520 --> 11:20.040] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll add these features and we'll shore it up.
[11:20.100 --> 11:21.640] [SPEAKER_10]: You can keep your old version if you want.
[11:22.060 --> 11:33.860] [SPEAKER_04]: But this has been slowly taken away from something that the consumer... and, you know, in an effort to make it sort of easier and more approachable to their consumer base, but also for their own management.
[11:33.900 --> 11:39.820] [SPEAKER_04]: It's much easier for them to just push stuff to people and force them through and have everybody come along with you.
[11:39.900 --> 11:43.580] [SPEAKER_10]: And now you pay a monthly fee and you're kind of locked in.
[11:43.640 --> 11:47.300] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think the same thing is going to happen on almost everything that we use.
[11:47.440 --> 11:48.820] [SPEAKER_10]: You won't actually own it.
[11:48.900 --> 11:49.820] [SPEAKER_10]: You won't actually control it.
[11:49.920 --> 11:52.800] [SPEAKER_10]: You'll just have a virtual presence someplace.
[11:53.120 --> 12:00.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and with production software in particular, the companies that use that have a massive account most of the time with these organizations.
[12:00.580 --> 12:05.040] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're willing to buy all sorts of licenses and have it managed that way.
[12:05.040 --> 12:08.660] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's really not at all a problem to budget.
[12:08.840 --> 12:15.640] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they're going to buy like, you know, $100,000 worth of Apple products and outfit their newsroom or whatever it is.
[12:15.640 --> 12:32.780] [SPEAKER_04]: But the smaller producers, the people who are making and innovating and doing a lot with these technologies that have been so democratized, they're kind of in the lurch because they can't possibly wield this and pay like $1,200 a year or $2,200 a year,
[12:32.920 --> 12:38.800] [SPEAKER_04]: whatever the commercial rate is, because you're not a qualified educational institution, so on.
[12:38.900 --> 12:57.980] [SPEAKER_04]: You're left to basically only use old software that may still be something you can sort of own with a serial or other kind of software authentication key, but no way can you afford to climb onto their new model of hosting it as a service.
[12:58.300 --> 13:05.660] [SPEAKER_04]: And for whatever reason, you know, whatever their rationale is, it's your only option because everything else is older or depreciated.
[13:05.840 --> 13:10.740] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, with all these companies like Microsoft trying to force you to buy their cloud products, Apple's doing it too.
[13:11.420 --> 13:13.100] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's Microsoft 365 or something.
[13:13.260 --> 13:18.340] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Apple's been doing it too with like the purposely low storage they provide that make you buy their cloud stuff.
[13:19.560 --> 13:22.900] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes it more and more important to be able to like run your own stuff.
[13:23.480 --> 13:33.440] [SPEAKER_02]: And on the Linux side of things, there's been a lot of progress made in going the opposite direction where Windows is requiring you to install their OS updates whenever.
[13:33.440 --> 13:33.880] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[13:34.320 --> 13:42.020] [SPEAKER_02]: With Ubuntu in the newest version, they have you can live patch kernel new kernel updates without having to restore a computer.
[13:42.500 --> 13:44.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the capability is certainly there.
[13:44.800 --> 13:44.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[13:45.400 --> 13:45.840] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[13:46.000 --> 13:53.600] [SPEAKER_03]: But it turns out that the companies that make this software really like money and they like taking more of it from you than than they're perhaps entitled to.
[13:53.700 --> 14:02.460] [SPEAKER_03]: They like being able to automatically get more money from you on a regular basis because, you know, they could sell you something in a box that will do what you want and you just take it home and do it.
[14:02.540 --> 14:10.660] [SPEAKER_03]: But if they, if they sell you a membership in something else that you need them for, that you need them to continue, that you need to continue using them for, that's a whole other thing.
[14:10.820 --> 14:12.480] [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, they're going to go that way.
[14:12.580 --> 14:14.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, there's also the issue of privacy.
[14:15.020 --> 14:23.420] [SPEAKER_10]: When you run your own computer system, you control your files, you control what you make public and what you don't.
[14:23.640 --> 14:26.760] [SPEAKER_10]: You take the responsibility for that, whether you keep a backup or not.
[14:27.140 --> 14:29.280] [SPEAKER_10]: That's really something that is up to you.
[14:29.280 --> 14:31.980] [SPEAKER_10]: When you're in the cloud, you kind of lose that.
[14:32.080 --> 14:33.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, I saw this story the other day.
[14:33.980 --> 14:42.540] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, the stories you see virtually every day of some teacher someplace who was caught with hundreds of images of child pornography on their computer.
[14:43.180 --> 14:44.440] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, here's another one of those.
[14:44.600 --> 14:49.440] [SPEAKER_10]: And this particular case, I just saw this paragraph and it intrigued me.
[14:50.140 --> 14:58.220] [SPEAKER_10]: This guy started uploading hundreds of images, as I said, of child pornography to the storage feature of his Google account in April.
[14:58.220 --> 15:07.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Federal prosecutors said in court papers, Google officials, following both federal law and the company's policies, suspended the teacher's account and notified law enforcement.
[15:07.500 --> 15:13.900] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, you know, if you go over to Google Drive and you ask them the question, is Google Drive secure?
[15:14.360 --> 15:18.760] [SPEAKER_10]: They say when you upload files to Google Drive, they are stored in secure data centers.
[15:18.900 --> 15:22.800] [SPEAKER_10]: If your computer, phone or tablet is lost or broken, you can still access your files from other devices.
[15:22.800 --> 15:25.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Your files are private unless you share them.
[15:26.140 --> 15:30.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think this guy, uh, currently in jail someplace would disagree with that.
[15:30.680 --> 15:32.120] [SPEAKER_10]: And you know, here's the, here's the problem.
[15:32.280 --> 15:48.020] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, when it's, it's, um, uh, dealing with somebody who's either in prison or, uh, a suspect in child pornography, or even somebody in the military, regular people tend not to care as much because, well, they knew what they were getting into or they deserve it or something like that.
[15:48.200 --> 15:59.040] [SPEAKER_10]: But this is very, very relevant to everybody because we need to know if you upload something to a service that says it's private and then you upload the wrong image.
[15:59.200 --> 16:00.460] [SPEAKER_10]: And all of a sudden the cops are at your door.
[16:00.580 --> 16:02.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Obviously it's not private.
[16:02.400 --> 16:05.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Obviously it's being scanned and looked at and analyzed.
[16:05.900 --> 16:10.720] [SPEAKER_10]: And believe me, it can get a lot more insidious than, than, uh, illegal images.
[16:10.840 --> 16:13.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, that this can be about, about words.
[16:13.460 --> 16:18.940] [SPEAKER_10]: This can be about, uh, um, uh, conspiracies about who you associate with all that information.
[16:19.140 --> 16:20.040] [SPEAKER_10]: No longer private, Rob.
[16:20.260 --> 16:24.180] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, maybe a sexual predator isn't the best, uh, use case to, to hold up.
[16:24.280 --> 16:30.680] [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, we, we saw it happen with, um, a few years ago when there was that massive leak of private images of celebrities because they were using iCloud.
[16:30.940 --> 16:41.440] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, something which, uh, just came with their phone and, uh, they just used it without, uh, thinking that this was something that was open to other people who were able to wrangle their way in, um, download, uh, images that they weren't expecting to share.
[16:41.440 --> 16:45.360] [SPEAKER_10]: But in that case, didn't somebody hack their password at least to get the images?
[16:45.360 --> 16:48.540] [SPEAKER_10]: This is, this is Google saying, Hey guys, we got something here.
[16:48.660 --> 16:49.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Go get this guy.
[16:49.620 --> 16:53.800] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, and, and we, we may say, okay, that's the right thing that they should do that.
[16:54.160 --> 16:57.380] [SPEAKER_10]: But we don't know they're doing that until something like this happens.
[16:57.520 --> 17:00.560] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's kind of the red flag that, uh, you know, I see being waved here.
[17:00.680 --> 17:01.140] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[17:01.260 --> 17:04.840] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and there's a, there's an old saying in the it world, which is like, there's no such thing as the cloud.
[17:04.920 --> 17:06.260] [SPEAKER_03]: There's just other people's computers.
[17:06.560 --> 17:07.880] [SPEAKER_03]: There's computers you don't control.
[17:08.140 --> 17:08.300] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[17:08.440 --> 17:16.820] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think their, their enforcement and policing of that content, uh, is, is, uh, something that would quell creativity in, in, in a lot of ways.
[17:16.980 --> 17:34.000] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and, uh, you know, you, you say you have a documentary or something that's going to release, uh, uh, expose, uh, corporate, uh, uh, uh, malfeasance, some, some, uh, uh, controversial issue, uh, if some algorithm or some, uh, uh, unknown entity at,
[17:34.000 --> 17:47.940] [SPEAKER_04]: at an organization that's hosting, uh, some of the materials that you're using to produce that content, uh, if they're looking at it or, or somehow it's being exfiltrated in advance, uh, how would you be able to, uh, have any kind of element of surprise or,
[17:47.940 --> 17:49.300] [SPEAKER_04]: uh, release that?
[17:49.400 --> 18:03.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and, uh, you know, were the right interests involved your, your entire story or something you could be breaking to the public that is in the public interest is then, uh, you know, collapses because of this kind of, uh, industrial espionage or, or,
[18:03.620 --> 18:14.120] [SPEAKER_04]: or otherwise, uh, you know, uh, disruptive, uh, policing of, of something that you, in your opinion, feel is, uh, important, uh, to people and, and that they should be able to judge.
[18:14.300 --> 18:15.840] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not just your private data like that.
[18:15.960 --> 18:24.120] [SPEAKER_03]: There are people, uh, nowadays whose entire email presence is wrapped up in a Gmail account, which is run by Google, which is a company that, uh, sells advertising for a living.
[18:24.280 --> 18:25.260] [SPEAKER_10]: You say this like it's unusual.
[18:25.460 --> 18:28.280] [SPEAKER_10]: That's almost everybody I know is completely wrapped up in Google.
[18:28.420 --> 18:28.900] [SPEAKER_03]: It is.
[18:29.040 --> 18:33.940] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, this is a company that, uh, is giving you free stuff that's easy to use and, uh, convenient and all that.
[18:34.060 --> 18:43.300] [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, they're using this information that they gather about you through your use of the product to fuel what they actually do for a living, which is sell you things, which is sell other people things about you, your info.
[18:43.680 --> 18:45.440] [SPEAKER_10]: Rob, not just sell you things, sell you.
[18:45.640 --> 18:48.480] [SPEAKER_10]: They are selling you to various companies.
[18:48.620 --> 18:48.780] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[18:48.780 --> 18:50.260] [SPEAKER_10]: You become the product by using these.
[18:50.420 --> 18:50.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly.
[18:50.740 --> 18:50.740] Exactly.
[18:50.800 --> 18:51.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Voltaire.
[18:51.820 --> 19:00.620] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, back to Kyle's point, uh, it runs, like, uh, a lot of these systems are basically taking, uh, hashes of your files you upload in.
[19:01.060 --> 19:07.240] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it, uh, we were talking about a few weeks ago with, uh, the EU policy of, like, the mandatory filter, uh, Article 17.
[19:07.680 --> 19:16.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, those things can't, uh, uh, algorithms can't decide whether or not something is fair use, but they can still, like, prevent you from sharing a link to a video file, say.
[19:17.160 --> 19:21.880] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're documentarian and you're doing fair use with that, it's, like, they can't determine that.
[19:22.300 --> 19:23.440] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot in there.
[19:23.540 --> 19:38.160] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you, you, um, measure and you sort of cut out stuff with that kind of a course, uh, that, that level of granularity, you, you really remove the possibility, a lot of possibility, uh, when it comes to imagery or content and so on.
[19:38.240 --> 19:49.980] [SPEAKER_04]: And basically these entities who are acting as, uh, hard drives ought not to be, um, uh, ought not to have a say in, in necessarily what the content of what you're producing is.
[19:50.120 --> 19:56.020] [SPEAKER_04]: It's never been the case, but now, uh, in, in giving them that stuff, um, you, you have the possibility.
[19:56.020 --> 19:58.020] [SPEAKER_04]: You're open to the possibility of it.
[19:58.380 --> 20:04.020] [SPEAKER_04]: But, um, and, and, and algorithms, yeah, they may, um, be looking for very narrow things.
[20:04.180 --> 20:15.880] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and I, as I, as I described it, I think that's a very coarse, cumbersome way to, um, to, uh, uh, in some ways, censor the ability of people, uh, to express themselves.
[20:16.180 --> 20:19.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, you need humans involved in, in that.
[20:19.320 --> 20:23.480] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, um, you need to give people the opportunity to produce, uh, and express themselves.
[20:23.480 --> 20:26.380] [SPEAKER_10]: So before, before we move on, um, what's the solution?
[20:26.660 --> 20:29.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Because, you know, we can tell people, yeah, this is, this is a problem.
[20:29.480 --> 20:30.940] [SPEAKER_10]: You're, you're going to be compromised.
[20:31.120 --> 20:36.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, you're going to lose all your privacy if you keep things in the cloud, but obviously people can't all run their own mail servers.
[20:37.100 --> 20:38.760] [SPEAKER_10]: They can't all run their own UNIX systems.
[20:39.600 --> 20:44.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, what is it that we should suggest people do instead of, uh, instead of buying into this?
[20:44.880 --> 20:45.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Volter?
[20:45.300 --> 20:46.640] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, collective political action.
[20:46.860 --> 20:54.460] [SPEAKER_02]: So, like, demanding, uh, tougher, like, privacy laws and, um, really, uh, uh, contracting the surveillance data.
[20:54.680 --> 20:54.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[20:55.040 --> 20:58.000] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, demanding things is great, but it doesn't always work right away.
[20:58.180 --> 20:58.920] [SPEAKER_10]: It takes a long...
[20:58.920 --> 21:02.680] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm saying, what can you do next week that will make you more secure?
[21:03.380 --> 21:03.780] [SPEAKER_03]: Rob?
[21:03.880 --> 21:09.140] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just a way of, uh, looking at the data that you're using and, uh, that you're moving around and being cognizant.
[21:09.280 --> 21:20.020] [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of people are not, uh, being cognizant that that photo you're taking and putting up on your, you know, cloud account here or there is something that is being placed on a network that is hooked up to basically the entire world.
[21:20.680 --> 21:21.520] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, you know...
[21:21.520 --> 21:24.500] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not advising child pornography, uh, connoisseurs to do that.
[21:24.720 --> 21:27.740] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, you guys continue to use the, the, the cloud all you want.
[21:28.200 --> 21:38.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but, uh, that's, that's how, that's how they, they, they keep this kind of, um, advice from reaching people because, well, we have to protect everybody from the really evil people out there.
[21:38.100 --> 21:41.380] [SPEAKER_10]: And if you don't go along with it, you, you're enabling those people.
[21:41.580 --> 21:45.040] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's something we have to detach ourselves from because that's not the case at all.
[21:45.220 --> 21:49.840] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I, that's, I want to reiterate, that's my point is that it's all the things that get swept up in this hysteria.
[21:49.960 --> 21:56.880] [SPEAKER_04]: The fear, the hysteria is the bait, but it is, it is not actually the, uh, addressing the issue.
[21:57.080 --> 21:57.440] [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[21:57.740 --> 22:06.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, if you know that, you know, your, your, your files, your email, whatever, are not as, as private as you want them to be, at least you know that.
[22:06.420 --> 22:07.480] [SPEAKER_10]: And maybe that's okay with you.
[22:07.720 --> 22:14.340] [SPEAKER_10]: But I just don't want people to be surprised when they think, that they're doing something that's secure and it's absolutely not secure.
[22:14.660 --> 22:15.460] [SPEAKER_10]: At least know that.
[22:15.620 --> 22:22.840] [SPEAKER_10]: And then, you know, once you know that, if it's not okay with you, then you can look into other solutions, maybe, maybe a service that has a better reputation.
[22:23.240 --> 22:27.440] [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe you learn some, uh, basic computer skills and, and do things locally.
[22:27.680 --> 22:35.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the important thing is to be educated and to know if, um, if, if, if you're, uh, living in security or living in insecurity.
[22:35.420 --> 22:35.820] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[22:35.900 --> 22:37.040] [SPEAKER_02]: It really depends on your threat model.
[22:37.160 --> 22:42.240] [SPEAKER_02]: If your threat model, if you're like a dissident or a journalist say, if that model might be the surveillance state.
[22:42.380 --> 22:51.960] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas if you're like just, uh, more average person without, without technical skills, you, I think you're actually better off with, uh, Google than like with locally hosted things.
[22:52.460 --> 23:00.920] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, uh, because like then you, like a lot of people in real life, they're, they made your 30 miles about like a piece of a partner or something.
[23:01.100 --> 23:04.460] [SPEAKER_02]: And they, if they have local access to your files and that's dangerous.
[23:04.740 --> 23:04.960] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh huh.
[23:05.040 --> 23:09.660] [SPEAKER_10]: I like to think the average person is a dissident right now, but, um, maybe that's just a pipe dream.
[23:10.140 --> 23:15.680] [SPEAKER_10]: But I think, you know, we all, we all benefit from, uh, from education, from learning how these things actually are working.
[23:16.040 --> 23:16.400] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[23:16.560 --> 23:20.140] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and think about creative ways to, to, um, to do this stuff for you.
[23:20.200 --> 23:24.900] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to do, I guess, necessarily what everyone sort of does, uh, as a solution.
[23:25.080 --> 23:35.400] [SPEAKER_04]: And there are a myriad of alternatives and, and, um, pieces of alternatives that could be a part of the whole, uh, that is a much better solution or more attractive solution.
[23:35.560 --> 23:52.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so definitely supporting cool projects, uh, that are related to storage or the related to video editing, whatever it is, you know, there are bits and pieces of that that are non-commercial and, um, you know, leveraging those things as, as much as possible against,
[23:52.540 --> 24:08.040] [SPEAKER_04]: um, the, um, the, uh, the enormous, um, for-profit, um, versions is, uh, is always a good, um, source of, of, um, I guess, uh, dissent and, uh, and activity.
[24:08.320 --> 24:18.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and, and it, it, it pushes you in, in, uh, a lot further away from, from only having those alternatives that are, that are hosted for you and, and so, uh, convenient.
[24:18.420 --> 24:29.200] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, and I kind of relate a story to, uh, both my phone and this, um, it turns out, um, that, uh, Google is tracking your movements whether or not you tell it to track your movements.
[24:29.580 --> 24:35.640] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, according to the Associated Press, Google wants to know where you go so badly that it records your movements even when you explicitly tell it not to.
[24:35.880 --> 24:46.060] [SPEAKER_10]: An Associated Press investigation found that many Google services on Android devices and iPhones store your location data even if you've used a privacy setting that says it will prevent Google from doing so.
[24:46.060 --> 24:51.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, computer science researchers at Princeton confirmed these findings at the AEP's request.
[24:51.540 --> 24:55.860] [SPEAKER_10]: And for the most part, Google is up front about asking permission to use your location information.
[24:56.060 --> 25:00.780] [SPEAKER_10]: An app like Google Maps will remind you to allow access to location if you use it for navigating.
[25:01.040 --> 25:07.480] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, if you agree to let it record your location over time, Google Maps will display that history for you in a timeline that maps out your daily movements.
[25:07.880 --> 25:08.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Who wouldn't want that?
[25:08.900 --> 25:17.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, storing your, uh, my, uh, minute-by-minute, uh, travels carries all kinds of privacy risks and has been used by police to determine the location of suspects.
[25:17.500 --> 25:18.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Imagine that.
[25:18.460 --> 25:24.860] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, such as, uh, a warrant that police in Raleigh, North Carolina served on, uh, on Google last year to find devices near a murder scene.
[25:25.000 --> 25:30.000] [SPEAKER_10]: So the company lets you pause a setting called location history in case you need to commit a murder.
[25:30.160 --> 25:32.060] [SPEAKER_10]: You pause it there and then resume it later.
[25:32.080 --> 25:33.380] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know what exactly.
[25:33.380 --> 25:39.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it tells them exactly what range of time to look and other sources to find out where you were.
[25:39.880 --> 25:40.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Right, right.
[25:40.340 --> 25:44.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Google says it, uh, that will prevent the company from, uh, remembering where you've been.
[25:44.420 --> 25:52.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Google support page on the subject states, you can turn off location history at any time with location history off the places you go are no longer stored.
[25:52.500 --> 25:53.900] [SPEAKER_10]: But that is not true.
[25:54.260 --> 26:00.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Even with location history paused, some Google apps automatically store timestamp location data without asking.
[26:01.120 --> 26:06.840] [SPEAKER_10]: It's, it's possible according to this article, although laborious to delete it, you have to jump through all kinds of hoops.
[26:07.000 --> 26:12.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, for example, Google store is a snapshot of where you are when you merely open its maps app.
[26:12.600 --> 26:16.720] [SPEAKER_10]: Automatic daily weather updates on Android phones pinpoint roughly where you are.
[26:16.860 --> 26:18.960] [SPEAKER_10]: For some reason, my phone thinks I'm in Connecticut now.
[26:19.140 --> 26:20.600] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know why, but I love it.
[26:20.660 --> 26:21.680] [SPEAKER_10]: I love when it gets things wrong.
[26:22.220 --> 26:33.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Some, uh, searches that have nothing to do with location like chocolate chip cookies or kids science kits, uh, pinpoint your precise latitude and longitude accurate to the square foot and save it to your Google account.
[26:34.120 --> 26:46.340] [SPEAKER_10]: The privacy issue affects some 2 billion users of devices that run Google's Android operating software and hundreds of millions of worldwide iPhone users who rely on Google for maps or search.
[26:47.060 --> 26:56.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, um, storing location data in violation of a user's preferences is wrong, said Jonathan Meyer, a Princeton computer scientist and former chief technologist for the FCC's enforcement bureau.
[26:56.940 --> 27:02.620] [SPEAKER_10]: A researcher from, uh, his lab confirmed the AP's findings on multiple Android devices.
[27:02.900 --> 27:06.560] [SPEAKER_10]: The AP conducted its own test on several iPhones that found the same behavior.
[27:06.820 --> 27:14.080] [SPEAKER_10]: If you're going to allow users to turn off something called location history, then all the places where you maintain location history should be turned off.
[27:14.080 --> 27:19.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Myer said that seems like a pretty straightforward position to have, uh, Google counters that it's being perfectly clear.
[27:20.120 --> 27:31.120] [SPEAKER_10]: There are a number of different ways that Google may use location to improve people's experience, including location history, web and app activity, and through device level location services, said a Google spokesperson.
[27:31.340 --> 27:37.680] [SPEAKER_10]: We provide clear descriptions of these tools and robust controls so people can turn them on or off and delete their histories at any time.
[27:38.080 --> 27:40.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but, uh, people aren't buying that.
[27:40.200 --> 27:45.820] [SPEAKER_10]: And in fact, uh, some lawmakers are pursuing this as well, but wow, that's, that's kind of, uh, uh, a big deal.
[27:45.920 --> 27:46.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Don't you think?
[27:46.880 --> 27:47.200] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[27:47.380 --> 27:54.740] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, again, it's not, it's not in Google's financial interests to make it easy for you to, uh, take control of your own stored history.
[27:54.960 --> 28:02.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna throw it in a disused lavatory behind a cabinet, uh, behind a door that says, beware of the leopard, because they don't, they like that.
[28:02.140 --> 28:02.940] [SPEAKER_03]: They like that data.
[28:03.120 --> 28:04.000] [SPEAKER_03]: They like keeping that data.
[28:04.080 --> 28:04.920] [SPEAKER_03]: They like selling that data.
[28:04.920 --> 28:06.800] [SPEAKER_03]: They like using that data to sell you things.
[28:07.260 --> 28:10.740] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, yeah, they'll, they'll give you something to click to make you happy.
[28:10.940 --> 28:14.880] [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, really they, they just, um, they, they like it.
[28:15.020 --> 28:16.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Isn't it enough that I bought the damn phone?
[28:16.980 --> 28:18.800] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I mean, it's a huge amount of money.
[28:18.880 --> 28:32.380] [SPEAKER_10]: And I also, I, I came up with a theory, uh, over the last week, um, back in the old days, I don't want to keep saying it's back in the old days because I'll turn into one of those people, but, um, back in the old days, you, you, you, when you, when you got angry at things,
[28:32.460 --> 28:44.700] [SPEAKER_10]: you could slam them down like a phone and if I get angry at something, excuse me, on, on, on my phone, um, then I can't slam that down or I have to, uh, invest another 700 bucks in another phone.
[28:45.160 --> 28:51.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and I think what's happening today is that people are being very careful with, uh, the way they express themselves physically.
[28:51.700 --> 28:54.480] [SPEAKER_10]: They no longer smash things or kick things there.
[28:54.640 --> 28:55.760] [SPEAKER_10]: They, they, because they're expensive.
[28:56.060 --> 28:59.820] [SPEAKER_10]: And you know, if you, if you, if you hit something the wrong way, it's going to break and you got to pay all this money.
[28:59.940 --> 29:04.080] [SPEAKER_10]: So they're, they're bottling all this rage up inside them and it comes out in unhealthy ways.
[29:04.300 --> 29:12.120] [SPEAKER_10]: I think we need to bring back phones that you could slam down on the, on the receiver, you know, slam down on the switch hook and, and, and, uh, maybe we'll be more mentally healthy.
[29:12.340 --> 29:14.800] [SPEAKER_03]: And those old phones were robust as hell too, weren't they?
[29:14.880 --> 29:17.180] [SPEAKER_03]: They still have big, heavy piece of equipment.
[29:17.380 --> 29:20.740] [SPEAKER_03]: You could slam it down, satisfied, satisfyingly, you know, goodbye, slam.
[29:21.000 --> 29:22.740] [SPEAKER_03]: And you'll see it in old movies, TV shows, whatever.
[29:23.120 --> 29:26.580] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, those of you who weren't around to experience that in real life, you're missing out.
[29:26.740 --> 29:32.480] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not ashamed to admit that I have a couple of those phones, uh, in, in various places around my house.
[29:32.860 --> 29:43.740] [SPEAKER_10]: And when I get upset at something either, uh, on my computer or on my, my, my digital, uh, you know, cellular phone, I go into that room and I slam that phone that, even though that phone did nothing to me and boy, it does feel good.
[29:43.880 --> 29:44.940] [SPEAKER_10]: It really does feel good.
[29:45.160 --> 29:48.360] [SPEAKER_03]: Especially when you get a little bit of the mechanical bell sound when you slam it hard enough.
[29:48.500 --> 29:48.720] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh huh.
[29:48.940 --> 29:49.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh huh.
[29:49.700 --> 29:50.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Try it out kids.
[29:50.460 --> 29:55.020] [SPEAKER_10]: If you haven't done it, go to a garage sale, get one of these old rotary phones that, uh, made by the bell company.
[29:55.260 --> 29:57.600] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, yeah, you can, uh, have the time of your life.
[29:57.800 --> 29:57.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[29:58.060 --> 30:06.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Speaking of the time of your life, um, uh, are you guys all ready for the ATM cash out scheme that apparently all hackers know about and is coming up really, really soon?
[30:06.660 --> 30:06.960] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[30:07.240 --> 30:12.900] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the FBI is warning banks about, uh, this, uh, fraud scheme is called an ATM cash out.
[30:13.140 --> 30:21.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, now how this works for those of you who don't know, uh, attackers, uh, typically compromise a bank or payment card processor with malware.
[30:21.280 --> 30:28.020] [SPEAKER_10]: They disable fraud controls and then they start withdrawing large sums of money, sometimes millions of dollars with cloned bank cards.
[30:28.240 --> 30:31.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Now the FBI reportedly sent an alert to banks last week.
[30:32.120 --> 30:47.840] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the FBI has obtained unspecified reporting indicating cyber criminals are planning to conduct a global automated teller machine cash out scheme in the coming days, likely associated with an unknown card issuer breach and commonly referred to as an unlimited operation.
[30:48.440 --> 30:53.820] [SPEAKER_10]: So, so friends, if you're, if you're a part of this, uh, best, hurry up, get up early in the morning.
[30:54.000 --> 30:57.500] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, it's an all day affair and then, and I guess cash out as much as you can.
[30:57.940 --> 31:01.840] [SPEAKER_10]: It's great how they, they know in advance that something like this is going to be happening.
[31:02.320 --> 31:05.180] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, wow, that's, that's your bank security for you right there.
[31:05.680 --> 31:06.700] [SPEAKER_04]: One thing that's interesting.
[31:06.880 --> 31:19.460] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we've covered these style of, um, uh, compromises in the past is, is that the people who are actually executing this with the, the clone cards are probably going to be the ones that are, um, rounded up, uh, first.
[31:19.580 --> 31:31.000] [SPEAKER_04]: So they're the worker bees doing all the withdrawing, but they're, they're going to be, um, the ones on the ground dealing with the consequences of this, um, uh, depending on how it's structured and, and arranged.
[31:31.420 --> 31:39.800] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so, uh, I would not actually personally be participating in this, um, on behalf of someone else because they're not taking the risk.
[31:40.300 --> 31:44.500] [SPEAKER_10]: The rest of us are going to be, uh, piling up cash and, uh, trying to sort it out later.
[31:44.740 --> 31:46.080] [SPEAKER_10]: And yeah, but it's just, it's crazy.
[31:46.220 --> 31:48.240] [SPEAKER_10]: That's what people think hackers do that.
[31:48.240 --> 31:57.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, we all go out to the ATMs and just, uh, you know, uh, collect that's, yeah, you know, uh, hackers can figure it out, but, uh, criminals are the ones who actually steal money.
[31:57.220 --> 31:59.500] [SPEAKER_10]: It's a, it's a amazing concept, but it's true.
[32:00.380 --> 32:01.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, okay.
[32:01.360 --> 32:08.320] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd say, uh, we have more an interest in like keeping our resources than doing something fleeting like this.
[32:08.480 --> 32:08.480] Yeah.
[32:08.540 --> 32:12.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Complaining about technology and figuring out ways to break things and fix them again and make them better.
[32:12.480 --> 32:14.880] [SPEAKER_10]: That's pretty much what, uh, what the hacker is all about.
[32:14.940 --> 32:15.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[32:15.140 --> 32:16.260] [SPEAKER_03]: I like being a hacker.
[32:16.400 --> 32:18.120] [SPEAKER_03]: I also like not going to jail for bank robbery.
[32:18.320 --> 32:20.820] [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, but that's not the reason why you don't rob a bank.
[32:20.980 --> 32:21.840] [SPEAKER_10]: It's because it's wrong.
[32:22.760 --> 32:24.120] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's wrong.
[32:24.360 --> 32:26.000] [SPEAKER_10]: It's, it doesn't feel right when you do it.
[32:26.320 --> 32:29.120] [SPEAKER_10]: And not that I know that, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't feel right.
[32:29.220 --> 32:30.780] [SPEAKER_04]: But it shouldn't be that we're gobsmacked.
[32:30.980 --> 32:34.580] [SPEAKER_04]: The criminals are using technology in what, 2018?
[32:35.000 --> 32:36.700] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's, it's, uh, innovative.
[32:37.020 --> 32:37.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[32:37.380 --> 32:55.080] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, uh, um, interesting and, you know, exciting and, uh, yeah, maybe even a little more boring, less, less like Butch Cassidy or whatever, you know, like a train robber style, but it's certainly, it should not surprise us that the, uh, tools and techniques that hackers were sort of onto first or,
[32:55.540 --> 32:59.160] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, aware of how those systems work and, and how to exploit them.
[32:59.300 --> 33:05.060] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, it should just not be a wonder that, um, yeah, uh, crime is going to advance into the 21st century as well.
[33:05.400 --> 33:12.120] [SPEAKER_03]: But, but in the news, if you, that the instant a criminal uses some sort of technology in the commission of their crime, then they're labeled a hacker.
[33:12.340 --> 33:15.560] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like if everyone who used a car in a crime was labeled a mechanic, it's fascinating.
[33:15.660 --> 33:20.000] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, we've been having this conversation since the eighties and I don't think we're ever going to progress past it.
[33:20.360 --> 33:27.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Not, not through fault of ours, but it's just the way, the way, uh, the media and the way basically people understand this kind of thing.
[33:27.400 --> 33:32.480] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but here's, uh, here's something, uh, on the subject of, of, of bank security or bank insecurity.
[33:33.080 --> 33:43.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I, uh, I was dealing with an issue, uh, over the past week involving, okay, after every conference, a ton of bills that have to be paid, it's inevitable and credit cards get maxed out.
[33:43.940 --> 33:47.640] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, we had a credit card that was completely maxed out that we needed to unmax.
[33:47.760 --> 33:49.920] [SPEAKER_10]: And we did, you know, made a hefty payment.
[33:50.180 --> 33:57.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and, um, yet the, the week afterwards, um, sales was still being declined, uh, charges to that credit card was still being declined.
[33:57.860 --> 34:00.680] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, so, I, I called up the, the credit card company.
[34:00.780 --> 34:01.800] [SPEAKER_10]: I said, uh, Hey, what's up?
[34:01.880 --> 34:09.140] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, we, we, we, we paid you and said, Oh yeah, we don't, uh, we don't have confirmation that, that, uh, that, uh, this was paid.
[34:09.160 --> 34:12.000] [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm like, Oh my God, uh, we don't have enough to pay this.
[34:12.040 --> 34:14.340] [SPEAKER_10]: Is it all kinds of nightmare scenarios.
[34:14.840 --> 34:20.540] [SPEAKER_10]: So I had to, um, uh, access my bank's records and sure enough, a week earlier it was paid.
[34:20.720 --> 34:30.180] [SPEAKER_10]: So I called them back and I said, okay, well, we need to get verification from, from the bank that it was paid, even though right there it's, there's a record of it that it was paid.
[34:30.420 --> 34:31.580] [SPEAKER_10]: They need to talk to the bank.
[34:31.680 --> 34:35.320] [SPEAKER_10]: So they basically made a three-way call to the bank.
[34:35.640 --> 34:39.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and I had to, uh, enter information.
[34:39.320 --> 34:45.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I think it was, um, um, social security information or something, uh, to, uh, get access to the account.
[34:45.860 --> 34:53.880] [SPEAKER_10]: And then with the representative, um, uh, sitting on the phone, the, the, the, uh, automated, uh, recording read off the balance and all kinds of other options.
[34:54.120 --> 34:57.600] [SPEAKER_10]: And eventually they wound up talking to a representative from the bank.
[34:57.700 --> 35:06.640] [SPEAKER_10]: So I had two representatives talking to each other about our account and all kinds of information was being passed around, which really, I don't think should have been passed around.
[35:06.860 --> 35:08.920] [SPEAKER_10]: And, and that is considered normal.
[35:09.120 --> 35:21.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, you call a bank and you say you're calling from a credit card company and you have the customer on the line, all the usual questions they ask you, uh, such as, okay, I'm going to give you a list of three streets.
[35:21.320 --> 35:22.700] [SPEAKER_10]: Which one did you grow up on?
[35:23.040 --> 35:24.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and those are always fun.
[35:24.360 --> 35:25.680] [SPEAKER_10]: Always seem to be the same question too.
[35:26.240 --> 35:31.500] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, instead of doing that, they just basically believe them and all this information is, is, is passed along.
[35:31.660 --> 35:38.340] [SPEAKER_10]: And the second that they were able to verify, uh, that the, um, uh, the, uh, charge was paid, everything was okay.
[35:38.540 --> 35:46.600] [SPEAKER_10]: And again, in the other direction, you know, you could have easily, uh, pretended you were a representative saying just that and the credit card company would have believed you.
[35:46.980 --> 35:51.700] [SPEAKER_10]: So yeah, that we have a long way to go security wise for, uh, for things like this, Rob.
[35:51.940 --> 35:52.040] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[35:52.140 --> 35:54.800] [SPEAKER_03]: And credit cards have been a mainstream thing for something like 40 years now.
[35:55.120 --> 36:05.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, we've had time to figure this out and we've had time to move beyond, uh, this easily exploitable, uh, way of doing things that people were social engineering, uh, comfortably, uh, you know, in, in decades past.
[36:05.180 --> 36:07.800] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, like I said, it's the same conversation we've been having since the eighties.
[36:07.980 --> 36:21.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I look at articles that we print in the magazine and, and, and basically, uh, you know, people are talking about, uh, not as Internet of things, uh, devices that have default passwords and, you know, botnets and things are, are, are, are formed, uh,
[36:21.500 --> 36:25.960] [SPEAKER_10]: because of that, because default passwords are used and it's, it's relatively simple.
[36:26.180 --> 36:30.960] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the same lessons aren't being learned and it's, um, it's really incredible.
[36:31.480 --> 36:36.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, so yeah, that's, uh, that's, that's a little bit of what's, uh, what's been going on.
[36:36.480 --> 36:42.340] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, now Voltaire, You were at a big hacker conference that took place over the weekend, DEFCON.
[36:42.600 --> 36:43.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you might have heard of it.
[36:43.540 --> 36:44.920] [SPEAKER_10]: It's ten times bigger than hope.
[36:45.140 --> 36:48.220] [SPEAKER_10]: And boy, I can't even imagine what that must be like.
[36:48.560 --> 36:49.980] [SPEAKER_10]: But how was it?
[36:50.180 --> 36:50.980] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a lot of fun.
[36:52.280 --> 36:58.940] [SPEAKER_02]: DEFCON kind of has, among activists, a notorious reputation for being kind of bro-y.
[37:02.400 --> 37:03.280] [SPEAKER_10]: Bro-y?
[37:03.500 --> 37:03.880] [SPEAKER_10]: That's the word?
[37:04.040 --> 37:05.820] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like people drinking too much alcohol.
[37:06.000 --> 37:07.360] [SPEAKER_02]: More like infosec than hackers.
[37:07.360 --> 37:08.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it is in Vegas.
[37:08.860 --> 37:09.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[37:09.080 --> 37:10.120] [SPEAKER_10]: You've got to keep that in mind.
[37:10.220 --> 37:14.880] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, because it's so large, as you mentioned, there are lots of...
[37:14.880 --> 37:16.860] [SPEAKER_02]: There's like many conferences within a conference.
[37:17.040 --> 37:21.200] [SPEAKER_02]: So some are more alcohol-focused than people are in the office.
[37:21.600 --> 37:24.840] [SPEAKER_02]: Where there are other breakout conferences that are...
[37:24.840 --> 37:27.640] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I went to Crypto and Privacy Village, which I especially liked.
[37:27.840 --> 37:30.020] [SPEAKER_02]: That had the most hope-like feel to it.
[37:30.600 --> 37:31.640] [SPEAKER_02]: So I really like that.
[37:31.860 --> 37:36.660] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, if you had to compare, other than being ten times bigger than us, I would say they're more security-focused.
[37:36.660 --> 37:39.120] [SPEAKER_10]: They're more focused on exploits and things like that.
[37:39.480 --> 37:40.660] [SPEAKER_10]: And we have...
[37:40.660 --> 37:44.260] [SPEAKER_10]: I guess we're more of a kind of an activist direction.
[37:45.140 --> 37:54.280] [SPEAKER_10]: And that's probably why we had the problems we had with alt-right infiltration and various other unpleasantness.
[37:54.280 --> 37:57.200] [SPEAKER_10]: And also, you know, challenges that we have to tackle.
[37:57.400 --> 37:58.720] [SPEAKER_10]: But I know...
[37:58.720 --> 38:04.260] [SPEAKER_10]: I heard some reports about things that were happening at DEFCON that were a challenge of a completely different nature.
[38:04.340 --> 38:07.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Also related to our changing society.
[38:07.780 --> 38:14.980] [SPEAKER_10]: And in this particular case, you know, whereas I think, you know, with hope we can do a better job, I don't really think there's anything they can do.
[38:15.060 --> 38:17.100] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think they can be faulted for anything that happened here.
[38:17.100 --> 38:24.060] [SPEAKER_10]: It's basically hotel policy now in Vegas seems to allow for random searches or...
[38:24.060 --> 38:26.660] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's not hotel policy in Vegas for at large.
[38:26.840 --> 38:31.920] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the hotel policy of these specific hotels of the ones that are hosting it.
[38:32.240 --> 38:36.680] [SPEAKER_10]: Now, this has something to do with the guy who went on a rampage and was shooting people in Vegas last year.
[38:36.680 --> 38:37.520] [SPEAKER_02]: Nominally, yes.
[38:37.740 --> 38:53.440] [SPEAKER_02]: It's basically that the issue of the policy is that now if you reject room service and do not disturb sign up for like too many days, they'll force somebody to send into security and like take a look around.
[38:53.620 --> 38:56.200] [SPEAKER_02]: And the official policy... so this isn't a new law.
[38:56.300 --> 38:57.340] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just their policy.
[38:57.580 --> 39:04.620] [SPEAKER_02]: And their official policy is like they have a security guard go in and look around to see if you have any guns or anything.
[39:04.620 --> 39:08.720] [SPEAKER_02]: But they're not allowed to touch your stuff and they're supposed to like identify themselves.
[39:09.040 --> 39:13.240] [SPEAKER_02]: But that... in this... in a lot of theater reported cases, they broke those rules.
[39:13.520 --> 39:15.480] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't identify themselves.
[39:15.780 --> 39:19.180] [SPEAKER_02]: So it could have obviously been somebody social engineering their way into it.
[39:19.640 --> 39:27.760] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and they... and they also touch people's stuff and like start looking through their belongings.
[39:28.060 --> 39:32.100] [SPEAKER_10]: Because if you go into a hacker's room, you're going to see things that are interesting and possibly suspicious.
[39:32.100 --> 39:39.340] [SPEAKER_10]: And hackers are the people that would object more than anybody to random searches and having their privacy.
[39:39.500 --> 39:39.660] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[39:39.720 --> 39:43.360] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that the only solution really is to take... for them to take their business.
[39:43.560 --> 39:50.900] [SPEAKER_02]: If they can, DEFCON organizers have announced that they're going to go and like basically try and negotiate and get this policy changed for them.
[39:51.100 --> 39:56.040] [SPEAKER_02]: But the problem is like they have... the only way to stop this is to take their business elsewhere.
[39:56.040 --> 40:03.480] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is difficult because there's so much concentration and the mark... the four hotels surrounding the Caesars are all owned by the same company.
[40:03.680 --> 40:04.320] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like...
[40:04.320 --> 40:04.560] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[40:04.800 --> 40:09.820] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw people on Twitter saying like, oh, well, if you... if you don't like the policy, just like stay at a different hotel.
[40:09.960 --> 40:10.880] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, yeah, but...
[40:10.880 --> 40:12.460] [SPEAKER_10]: You're mocking people on Twitter now.
[40:12.580 --> 40:12.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[40:13.000 --> 40:13.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[40:13.480 --> 40:14.300] [SPEAKER_02]: I never thought I'd see the day.
[40:14.620 --> 40:16.080] [SPEAKER_02]: Mocking people on Twitter on the radio.
[40:16.420 --> 40:16.660] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[40:16.660 --> 40:31.840] [SPEAKER_02]: But, but no, but the problem with that is like, because Vegas is such a me, it's like any hotel within a 20 minute walking distance is... I'm only exaggerating slightly, but any hotel within like a 15 minute walking distance, it's owned by the same corporate outlet.
[40:32.020 --> 40:33.340] [SPEAKER_02]: So like, you don't have a choice.
[40:33.500 --> 40:34.460] [SPEAKER_10]: How did that happen?
[40:34.560 --> 40:36.760] [SPEAKER_10]: How did all the hotels wind up being owned by the same people?
[40:36.960 --> 40:37.360] [SPEAKER_02]: Capitalism.
[40:37.860 --> 40:38.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[40:38.460 --> 40:38.860] [SPEAKER_10]: That's...
[40:38.860 --> 40:48.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, when you have 25,000 hackers, I know this from experience because I've seen happen with 3,000 hackers in the Netherlands and Germany, villages can be built.
[40:48.360 --> 40:53.880] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think what... I know this is silly, but you just go out into the desert and you build a city, you build a hotel of your own.
[40:53.960 --> 40:55.100] [SPEAKER_10]: And I don't know.
[40:55.220 --> 40:56.300] [SPEAKER_10]: I know that's not going to happen.
[40:56.520 --> 40:57.620] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how they get started with the mafia.
[40:57.720 --> 40:58.300] [SPEAKER_10]: That is how...
[40:58.300 --> 40:58.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[40:58.660 --> 40:59.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we don't know that.
[40:59.340 --> 41:05.900] [SPEAKER_10]: But the thing is, when you have that number of people and when you have that kind of publicity, you can affect change.
[41:06.040 --> 41:06.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh yeah, definitely.
[41:06.460 --> 41:10.820] [SPEAKER_10]: And we totally stand behind whatever change they decide to make as a result of this.
[41:10.880 --> 41:12.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Because this is, you know, it's not just hackers being affected.
[41:12.980 --> 41:14.120] [SPEAKER_10]: It's everybody being affected.
[41:14.260 --> 41:17.560] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, the guy went nuts and killed a bunch of people.
[41:17.760 --> 41:21.640] [SPEAKER_10]: And nobody knows why to this day, so much for your mental health screening.
[41:21.880 --> 41:32.640] [SPEAKER_10]: And the way they decide to deal with that problem is to invade people's privacy for completely unrelated reasons and not do anything about actual guns.
[41:32.660 --> 41:34.740] [SPEAKER_10]: It's nonsense.
[41:35.340 --> 41:46.260] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing I noticed following what was going on on Twitter is that hackers being hackers, somebody started circulating the code to dial on your hotel room phone to flag your room in the system as having had their room service already.
[41:46.600 --> 41:47.800] [SPEAKER_10]: How is there a code for that?
[41:48.200 --> 41:48.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Why?
[41:48.740 --> 41:49.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Why do they even have that?
[41:49.940 --> 41:51.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently it was a thing and it got out.
[41:52.140 --> 41:58.740] [SPEAKER_02]: So if the people that do the room server could just dial it in while they're in it, when they finish a room, it makes it easier for them.
[41:58.900 --> 41:59.160] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[42:00.200 --> 42:03.780] [SPEAKER_10]: What if, you know, you just like did like a long-term rental of a place?
[42:03.780 --> 42:11.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, you sort of have like your own apartment complex and they kind of just rent it out on their own terms for, you know, a weekend or a week or something like that.
[42:12.040 --> 42:12.220] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[42:12.280 --> 42:15.020] [SPEAKER_10]: There's all kinds of creative possible solutions.
[42:15.560 --> 42:21.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I would just reiterate or elaborate on what you were saying about access to other venues.
[42:21.480 --> 42:33.340] [SPEAKER_04]: I think like a motel probably wouldn't, but because these events are at a resort, like, you know, a highway motel is not going to be that concerned if you're saying do not disturb, but a resort like this accommodating an event like this.
[42:34.120 --> 42:42.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Especially given the proximity to the Mandalay Bay event or incident is a concern.
[42:42.160 --> 42:51.400] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think hospitality, like you said, in general across the industry is definitely a lot more vigilant with this kind of stuff, especially like large amounts of luggage.
[42:51.620 --> 42:54.420] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember seeing some notices.
[42:54.860 --> 42:57.360] [SPEAKER_04]: I won't really elaborate very much more.
[42:57.540 --> 43:08.900] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it doesn't matter, but, you know, we have access to some of the staff areas and there were definitely notices for the hotel, um, about large suitcases that had the same kind of issue.
[43:09.040 --> 43:14.080] [SPEAKER_04]: But as far as how they implemented it and enforce it, we didn't have anything like that where rooms were being searched or anything.
[43:14.220 --> 43:21.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Not, not that we're aware of, but, um, I think maybe that's just a distinction of the like sort of stratification of, of the industry.
[43:21.180 --> 43:27.260] [SPEAKER_04]: And again, the proximity in Vegas, uh, that seems to be understandable, perhaps not reasonable, but understandable.
[43:27.260 --> 43:33.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Again, like what we were talking about before with, uh, everybody going to the cloud, we cannot let this be normalized.
[43:33.600 --> 43:40.260] [SPEAKER_10]: We cannot let this be something that, uh, oh, that's just the price of living in a free society because it's not a free society when you do things like this.
[43:40.260 --> 43:45.160] [SPEAKER_10]: And we need to, uh, stand together and, and, and make sure this does not become the norm.
[43:45.420 --> 43:47.760] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, hopefully we'll have more updates on that.
[43:48.120 --> 43:53.020] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, we have, um, phone calls to get to, actually, we don't have any yet because I haven't given the phone number out.
[43:53.020 --> 43:56.020] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, three, four, seven, three, three, five, zero, eight, one, eight is our telephone number.
[43:56.160 --> 43:56.320] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[43:56.680 --> 43:58.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Three, four, seven is the area code.
[43:58.560 --> 43:59.900] [SPEAKER_10]: Three, three, five, zero, eight, one, eight.
[44:00.520 --> 44:03.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Someone said we were going to install all kinds of new phone lines here.
[44:03.260 --> 44:06.620] [SPEAKER_10]: I don't see them yet, but, uh, you, you noticed a box or something, Kyle?
[44:06.780 --> 44:08.440] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually, I don't know if it's new.
[44:08.560 --> 44:11.140] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like a, a panel, uh, in the wall here.
[44:11.960 --> 44:13.380] [SPEAKER_10]: That sounds pretty solid to me.
[44:13.400 --> 44:14.780] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, um, it's locked though.
[44:14.940 --> 44:16.200] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't actually open it.
[44:16.400 --> 44:18.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I'll have to get some pics or something, but no, of course.
[44:18.920 --> 44:19.680] [SPEAKER_04]: I would never do that.
[44:19.680 --> 44:20.880] [SPEAKER_10]: You don't have pics on you right now?
[44:21.380 --> 44:23.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, we're hackers for God's sake.
[44:23.540 --> 44:27.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I might, I might actually have some somewhere, but not, uh, in my hand.
[44:27.200 --> 44:27.480] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[44:27.620 --> 44:29.960] [SPEAKER_04]: And I would never pick a lock at the radio station.
[44:29.960 --> 44:31.720] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't believe you even suggested that.
[44:31.880 --> 44:34.160] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm mind the rules.
[44:35.000 --> 44:35.420] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[44:35.480 --> 44:36.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I don't know how we got into the building then.
[44:36.960 --> 44:39.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And policies of WBA.
[44:39.480 --> 44:40.620] [SPEAKER_10]: People know not to let us in.
[44:40.920 --> 44:41.360] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, good evening.
[44:41.540 --> 44:42.960] [SPEAKER_10]: You're on off the hook.
[44:43.800 --> 44:44.380] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey guys.
[44:44.480 --> 44:44.860] [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing?
[44:45.020 --> 44:45.260] [SPEAKER_05]: Pretty good.
[44:45.400 --> 44:45.540] [SPEAKER_05]: How are you?
[44:46.720 --> 44:47.240] [SPEAKER_05]: Pretty good.
[44:47.420 --> 44:47.920] [SPEAKER_05]: Glad to hear you.
[44:48.720 --> 44:58.360] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so you guys were talking earlier about, what can be done with the general public and education on how do we solve this stuff?
[44:58.520 --> 45:01.160] [SPEAKER_05]: The software, the service, software, the service and all that.
[45:01.320 --> 45:01.540] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[45:02.720 --> 45:08.320] [SPEAKER_05]: In my job, I had occasion to interact with the general public quite a bit with respect to their personal tech.
[45:08.740 --> 45:15.400] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm sad to say the vast majority of them, at least what they express, they don't seem to care.
[45:15.980 --> 45:16.700] [SPEAKER_10]: You're right.
[45:16.820 --> 45:34.940] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and it's, it's, it's sad, but I meet a lot of people who would rather have free Gmail email, um, and decline full disk encryption, you know, because they're worried about forgetting their passwords or, you know, therefore lose their decryption key.
[45:35.120 --> 45:37.120] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's, I don't know.
[45:37.200 --> 45:44.980] [SPEAKER_05]: And when I hear you guys talk about this stuff, I sometimes wonder if you guys ever have occasion to talk with the general public about this stuff.
[45:44.980 --> 45:45.520] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.
[45:45.820 --> 45:45.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[45:46.240 --> 45:49.140] [SPEAKER_10]: And in our own heads, I think we, we have the conversation too.
[45:49.380 --> 45:50.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, I've got nothing to hide.
[45:50.460 --> 45:57.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Is it really that much of a sacrifice, you know, and, and what a hassle it is to encrypt everything and to maintain all these privacy standards.
[45:57.620 --> 46:03.700] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, Kyle, you, you set up secure drop for us at 2600, which by the way, folks, we have secure drop at 2600.
[46:03.880 --> 46:13.820] [SPEAKER_10]: So if you have something to leak like tax returns or audio files of people saying things, uh, go to our secure drop page at 2600.com or go to the list at secure drop.
[46:13.820 --> 46:26.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but, uh, you know, for that, to set that up, the, the levels of privacy that you need encryption, all kinds of things like that, it would drive the average person nuts to set it up, which, you know, is probably why most people don't do that.
[46:26.540 --> 46:38.700] [SPEAKER_10]: But I, you know, I, I think the solution to this is to make a certain level of, um, of, uh, privacy, encryption, what have you, the default and make it simple to implement.
[46:39.000 --> 46:41.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, this is something that the government would never support.
[46:42.340 --> 46:42.740] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[46:42.740 --> 46:50.000] [SPEAKER_04]: Another, another aspect for us is just to, um, be able to speak about it because we don't want to be insulated.
[46:50.140 --> 46:58.660] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't want to just talk to hackers who are all crazy, uh, about, um, their cryptography and privacy and they're all, you know, on point with it.
[46:59.020 --> 47:14.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, the average person isn't like you said, and I think that's, that's absolutely, it's critical to understand because if we've, you know, we feel it, we get insulated sometimes and we, um, every now and then I, I use the example are introduced to people who are still afraid of hackers.
[47:14.400 --> 47:20.040] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and, and for us, we only, you know, having spent so much time talking about hacking and that kind of thing.
[47:20.140 --> 47:24.580] [SPEAKER_04]: When we go to Maker Faire, we go to an event and evangelize and talk about hacking to people.
[47:24.580 --> 47:32.140] [SPEAKER_04]: It's critical to make those introductions and say, well, yeah, that, that's, that's partly what is said about us, but we're really into this.
[47:32.340 --> 47:42.640] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and, uh, that's, that's why, uh, asking the question and, and, and having, uh, your feedback, uh, is, is really brilliant for us because it's real, it's authentic.
[47:43.000 --> 47:46.180] [SPEAKER_10]: They're afraid of us because we're about to clear out their bank accounts, you know, and everybody knows it.
[47:46.400 --> 47:59.380] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with your point of mind that like the best solution to this is making it easier to use, uh, privacy tools and also making these big services requiring them to, um, to have secure policies.
[47:59.460 --> 48:09.060] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think that that can only happen through, like, like, I don't agree with your like defeatism about like politics that it's always going to be, uh, that the government is never going to change this.
[48:09.160 --> 48:15.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, look at things like, even though the national government right now is not that great, we, like Europe, they just passed the GDPR, which...
[48:15.500 --> 48:17.680] [SPEAKER_02]: Pick a country, pick a country that, that gets it.
[48:17.980 --> 48:20.780] [SPEAKER_02]: With California, like California just, it's not just country-wise.
[48:20.860 --> 48:21.700] [SPEAKER_02]: Like local initiatives.
[48:22.080 --> 48:26.500] [SPEAKER_02]: California just passed a law requiring, uh, a pro-privacy law, which is, uh, pretty good.
[48:26.760 --> 48:27.160] [SPEAKER_02]: Latvia.
[48:27.540 --> 48:27.820] [SPEAKER_02]: Um.
[48:28.300 --> 48:28.700] [SPEAKER_04]: Latvia.
[48:29.080 --> 48:29.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[48:29.720 --> 48:30.040] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[48:31.280 --> 48:32.420] [SPEAKER_02]: Care to expand on that?
[48:32.720 --> 48:33.380] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[48:33.480 --> 48:34.680] [SPEAKER_04]: Aren't they voting online now?
[48:36.120 --> 48:37.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Wait, that's supposed to be good?
[48:37.720 --> 48:38.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[48:38.160 --> 48:39.100] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying it's good.
[48:39.200 --> 48:39.700] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying...
[48:39.700 --> 48:40.480] [SPEAKER_04]: Estonia, but that's bad.
[48:40.620 --> 48:41.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Is it Estonia?
[48:41.440 --> 48:41.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[48:41.880 --> 48:42.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Latvia and Estonia.
[48:42.960 --> 48:50.580] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but I think that like their color is expressing a point about, uh, privacy, a sense of privacy defeatism, which is understandable.
[48:50.580 --> 48:56.660] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think we should also not have a sense of government, uh, or politics defeatism either.
[48:57.280 --> 48:59.480] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's a certain ironic...
[48:59.480 --> 49:03.420] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a little ironic because we're all used to talking about this.
[49:03.580 --> 49:04.900] [SPEAKER_05]: We're comfortable talking about this.
[49:05.000 --> 49:06.440] [SPEAKER_05]: We like talking about this.
[49:07.240 --> 49:16.420] [SPEAKER_05]: So, the tools to keep our stuff private, you know, TrueCrypt and so on, SecureDrop, you mentioned Emmanuel, we're used to using these tools.
[49:16.600 --> 49:17.600] [SPEAKER_05]: We're comfortable using them.
[49:18.060 --> 49:24.580] [SPEAKER_05]: And yet, um, they're, they're, I don't know, it would be great if a player emerged to normalize encryption.
[49:25.180 --> 49:25.700] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[49:26.060 --> 49:29.640] [SPEAKER_05]: To make it so that it's not just for the hackers, right?
[49:30.300 --> 49:38.720] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and including the, like, uh, the, uh, processes and, and, um, procedures in place, that workflow as a habit for everybody.
[49:38.880 --> 49:49.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Just like, um, just like, yeah, we, we work in our, our home office or, or, um, uh, with machines in general, you know, having that be ingrained as a, as a part of how you use these tools.
[49:49.240 --> 49:57.900] [SPEAKER_10]: I think the thing that we, we need to keep in mind, it doesn't have to be completely perfect in every way, because there's always going to be something that we're not satisfied with.
[49:57.960 --> 50:03.260] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think we're always holding out for something that has this particular level of security, et cetera, et cetera.
[50:03.800 --> 50:10.240] [SPEAKER_10]: As long as it's improved, as long as it's significantly better than what we have right now, which is virtually no security, uh, that is a step.
[50:10.320 --> 50:12.620] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think we need to take that step before we take the next step.
[50:12.700 --> 50:16.740] [SPEAKER_10]: It's kind of like politics because, you know, you need to take a step before you move in a good direction.
[50:16.740 --> 50:18.860] [SPEAKER_10]: You can't just get there in one step.
[50:19.480 --> 50:26.740] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, maybe another aspect of this is perhaps not to just immediately say no to the cloud.
[50:26.960 --> 50:29.520] [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe that's ultimately the answer, no to the cloud.
[50:29.740 --> 50:34.680] [SPEAKER_05]: But maybe there's more traction to be gained from normalizing, questioning the cloud.
[50:35.220 --> 50:38.220] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, questioning, how does this company store my information?
[50:38.560 --> 50:39.640] [SPEAKER_05]: And they say it's secure.
[50:40.000 --> 50:43.140] [SPEAKER_05]: What's their track record been with situations in the past?
[50:43.700 --> 50:46.020] [SPEAKER_05]: What kind of encryption do they use?
[50:46.420 --> 50:48.440] [SPEAKER_05]: Is my connection to them encrypted?
[50:48.440 --> 50:49.360] [SPEAKER_05]: Who has the keys?
[50:49.620 --> 50:50.420] [SPEAKER_05]: So on and so forth.
[50:51.300 --> 50:59.800] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe arm people with, well, the comfort that has to exist before they can start asking those questions.
[51:01.400 --> 51:10.300] [SPEAKER_05]: I wonder if saying no to the cloud by policy, as is personal policy, I mean, is necessarily the most effective way to get people on board.
[51:10.300 --> 51:11.240] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's here.
[51:11.420 --> 51:17.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I'm not saying say no to the cloud because the cloud is very useful for a number of things, but at least know what you're getting into.
[51:17.380 --> 51:18.680] [SPEAKER_05]: Right, right.
[51:18.860 --> 51:22.780] [SPEAKER_05]: And normalize this questioning rather than...
[51:22.780 --> 51:23.040] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[51:23.700 --> 51:24.460] [SPEAKER_05]: I like that.
[51:24.640 --> 51:25.640] [SPEAKER_10]: Normalize the questioning.
[51:25.820 --> 51:26.760] [SPEAKER_10]: That should be our motto.
[51:28.080 --> 51:28.940] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there you go.
[51:29.160 --> 51:29.580] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[51:29.940 --> 51:31.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, thanks for the call.
[51:32.040 --> 51:32.640] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, my pleasure.
[51:32.800 --> 51:33.580] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for being on the air.
[51:33.680 --> 51:34.020] [SPEAKER_10]: Take care.
[51:34.620 --> 51:35.340] [SPEAKER_10]: Good call there.
[51:35.660 --> 51:36.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was really good.
[51:36.540 --> 51:39.580] [SPEAKER_04]: I just thought maybe we need a cloud rating system.
[51:39.780 --> 51:41.260] [SPEAKER_10]: That would be something, I guess.
[51:41.940 --> 51:42.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Let's get another call.
[51:43.180 --> 51:45.020] [SPEAKER_10]: 347-335-0818.
[51:45.220 --> 51:48.640] [SPEAKER_10]: We only have a couple of minutes left, and we'd like to hear from as many people as possible.
[51:48.820 --> 51:50.900] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think we only have the one phone line still.
[51:51.060 --> 51:53.840] [SPEAKER_10]: So if we have more phone lines, they have not yet been hooked up.
[51:53.960 --> 51:55.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Either that or only one person called in.
[51:56.100 --> 51:57.700] [SPEAKER_10]: But I think that's the case.
[51:57.700 --> 51:58.860] [SPEAKER_10]: I think we only have the one.
[51:59.080 --> 52:00.640] [SPEAKER_04]: I saw different lights than usual.
[52:00.660 --> 52:03.180] [SPEAKER_04]: It looks like it's improving or at least changing.
[52:03.800 --> 52:06.000] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they might change the color of the lights, but that's about it.
[52:06.340 --> 52:07.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was on one side.
[52:07.620 --> 52:08.940] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's been on the other before.
[52:08.940 --> 52:10.600] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but they move it around sometimes.
[52:10.820 --> 52:12.520] [SPEAKER_10]: 347-335-0818.
[52:12.760 --> 52:16.680] [SPEAKER_10]: You can be the lucky person to get through to that one phone line until we get more.
[52:16.800 --> 52:17.980] [SPEAKER_10]: We used to have 12 phone lines.
[52:18.860 --> 52:22.540] [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, we still do on this phone here, but only that one works.
[52:23.780 --> 52:25.080] [SPEAKER_10]: So let me read a letter.
[52:25.380 --> 52:28.120] [SPEAKER_10]: We're getting more letters than ever before, which is awesome.
[52:28.340 --> 52:30.960] [SPEAKER_10]: I guess people have strong feelings about the things we've been talking about.
[52:31.560 --> 52:33.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Dear Off The Hook folks, I wasn't able to come to Hope this year.
[52:33.620 --> 52:35.240] [SPEAKER_10]: Just learned about the mega trolling.
[52:35.640 --> 52:46.060] [SPEAKER_10]: I listened to the post-conference Off The Hook as well and wanted to tell you I support the slow and contemplative way you're handling it and totally love that you can say the bastard's got the better of you this time.
[52:46.400 --> 52:47.480] [SPEAKER_10]: Tyranny is easy.
[52:47.740 --> 52:49.560] [SPEAKER_10]: Free speech and open societies are hard.
[52:49.960 --> 52:51.420] [SPEAKER_10]: And it was great to hear Bernie S.
[52:51.500 --> 52:52.120] [SPEAKER_10]: on the radio again.
[52:52.280 --> 52:54.440] [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks, RH, for that email.
[52:55.220 --> 52:58.560] [SPEAKER_10]: And you can send your email to oth@2600.com.
[52:59.000 --> 53:00.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Here's another Dear Off The Hook.
[53:00.760 --> 53:02.360] [SPEAKER_10]: This is in relation to last week's show.
[53:02.460 --> 53:04.940] [SPEAKER_10]: We had a pretty spirited discussion about Alex Jones.
[53:05.540 --> 53:07.100] [SPEAKER_10]: Freedom of speech has its limitations.
[53:07.340 --> 53:09.860] [SPEAKER_10]: For instance, you cannot call fire in a crowded theater.
[53:10.600 --> 53:11.340] [SPEAKER_10]: What Alex Jones...
[53:11.340 --> 53:13.100] [SPEAKER_10]: Actually, can we just put a big asterisk there?
[53:13.200 --> 53:14.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Because nobody ever gets this.
[53:14.480 --> 53:18.100] [SPEAKER_10]: If the theater is on fire, you can yell fire in the crowded...
[53:18.100 --> 53:19.680] [SPEAKER_10]: I just want people to understand that.
[53:19.780 --> 53:22.680] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I'm sitting in a theater, it's burning, but I'm not allowed to say fire.
[53:22.820 --> 53:24.540] [SPEAKER_10]: No, in that particular situation, you are.
[53:24.720 --> 53:26.500] [SPEAKER_10]: No one ever pens that.
[53:27.020 --> 53:28.120] [SPEAKER_10]: It's always bugged me.
[53:28.480 --> 53:28.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, yeah.
[53:29.100 --> 53:33.740] [SPEAKER_10]: What Alex Jones did to parents of the children murdered at Sandy Hook falls into that category.
[53:33.740 --> 53:35.860] [SPEAKER_10]: He declared the whole episode to be staged by the U.S.
[53:35.960 --> 53:37.960] [SPEAKER_10]: government to limit the right to carry firearms.
[53:38.600 --> 53:47.920] [SPEAKER_10]: After his announcements, his supporters made life for parents of the children so miserable that many of them, including Mr. Posner, the father of one of the murdered children, had to leave Sandy Hook.
[53:48.060 --> 53:50.140] [SPEAKER_10]: They were attacked and threatened by phone and by mail.
[53:50.140 --> 53:54.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, Mr. Jones also attacked a pizza place in Washington, accusing them of torturing children.
[53:54.700 --> 54:01.140] [SPEAKER_10]: And those crazy accusations caused a man to arm himself with a gun with the intention of shooting the owner and liberating the children.
[54:01.860 --> 54:04.540] [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you, Cass, for your insights on that.
[54:04.700 --> 54:15.600] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, you know, there are situations where, you know, calls to violence and spreading falsehoods that hurt people, such as holocaust denial and things like that.
[54:15.720 --> 54:17.460] [SPEAKER_10]: That's, you have to draw the line someplace.
[54:18.000 --> 54:19.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening, you're on Off The Hook.
[54:20.900 --> 54:21.620] [SPEAKER_10]: Speak up, please.
[54:22.600 --> 54:23.200] [SPEAKER_10]: Nobody there.
[54:24.140 --> 54:30.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, well, somebody called in, so I'm going to hang up and hopefully somebody else will call in who is speaking.
[54:31.960 --> 54:34.100] [SPEAKER_10]: 347-335-0818.
[54:34.680 --> 54:36.720] [SPEAKER_10]: I can read another letter.
[54:36.840 --> 54:37.360] [SPEAKER_10]: Rob, do you have something?
[54:37.580 --> 54:43.860] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the thing I wanted to say about the Alex Jones thing is it's not censorship if it's a private entity saying you can't use our service.
[54:43.860 --> 54:48.360] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I have a blog, and if someone leaves a comment I don't like, I'm allowed to delete it because it's my venue.
[54:48.800 --> 54:51.840] [SPEAKER_02]: It still is censorship, it's just not a First Amendment violation.
[54:52.080 --> 54:53.100] [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what I was going to say.
[54:53.100 --> 54:53.760] [SPEAKER_02]: Although I would argue that.
[54:53.840 --> 54:54.780] [SPEAKER_10]: See, where do you...
[54:54.780 --> 54:59.180] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, if we edit an article in 2600, is that censorship then?
[54:59.760 --> 55:01.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Because we're cutting out a word.
[55:01.480 --> 55:04.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's censorship, but it's not as bad.
[55:04.680 --> 55:05.540] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not violating freedom.
[55:05.540 --> 55:06.400] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think editing is censorship.
[55:06.760 --> 55:08.640] [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's, you know, clarity.
[55:09.580 --> 55:11.720] [SPEAKER_04]: What if we throw a MAGA hat out of a conference?
[55:11.720 --> 55:12.280] [SPEAKER_10]: You know what?
[55:12.340 --> 55:13.420] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm cutting you off.
[55:13.560 --> 55:13.960] [SPEAKER_10]: There.
[55:14.280 --> 55:15.660] [SPEAKER_10]: I guess it is censorship in a way.
[55:15.660 --> 55:16.640] [SPEAKER_10]: Let's take another phone call.
[55:16.720 --> 55:17.000] [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[55:17.140 --> 55:17.860] [SPEAKER_10]: You're on off the hook.
[55:17.940 --> 55:18.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Go ahead.
[55:19.280 --> 55:20.400] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[55:20.720 --> 55:27.960] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wondering, has your community been following the Unity 4J movement?
[55:28.460 --> 55:38.800] [SPEAKER_01]: That's to rally in support of Julian Assange not being extracted from the Ecuadorian embassy in London?
[55:39.720 --> 55:42.580] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we've been taking that position for years now.
[55:42.980 --> 55:45.360] [SPEAKER_10]: So I'm not sure what's changed.
[55:45.440 --> 55:47.940] [SPEAKER_10]: Other than what he's doing, I don't think much has changed.
[55:49.100 --> 56:02.900] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's a movement online under Unity 4J, and they're trying to do a lot of spreading of the word and mobilizing the community and all types of different activities and support.
[56:02.900 --> 56:09.540] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've been having these marathon sessions where they will...
[56:10.720 --> 56:12.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Vigils is what they're calling them.
[56:12.400 --> 56:19.080] [SPEAKER_01]: They've had about three or four so far, and they're all accessible under Unity 4J.
[56:19.120 --> 56:22.780] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm trying to help in my small way by spreading the word.
[56:22.940 --> 56:23.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[56:23.340 --> 56:24.760] [SPEAKER_10]: And can you just give out the website again?
[56:26.180 --> 56:28.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Unity 4, number 4J.
[56:29.040 --> 56:32.520] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would imagine just a Google search will pull that up.
[56:32.860 --> 56:36.460] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I say, there are all kinds of vigils that you can go on YouTube.
[56:36.700 --> 56:48.180] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've had 10 and 24 and 15-hour vigils and all types of people, including Kim.com, who's amazing, have come on and spoken out for hours and hours.
[56:48.340 --> 56:50.360] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've had these marathon vigils.
[56:50.520 --> 56:55.900] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been very, very, very informative and, you know, very energizing.
[56:56.140 --> 56:56.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[56:56.400 --> 56:58.300] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, thanks for giving out that information.
[56:58.520 --> 57:00.440] [SPEAKER_10]: And hopefully people will be aware of it.
[57:00.940 --> 57:01.460] [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for calling.
[57:01.460 --> 57:01.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, thank you.
[57:02.720 --> 57:09.920] [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I did want to get into an argument on the air about this, but I know, Voltaire, you have something to say about this as well.
[57:10.000 --> 57:15.640] [SPEAKER_10]: But I do know that Barrett Brown was kicked out of the Courage Foundation because he criticized Julian Assange.
[57:16.600 --> 57:19.640] [SPEAKER_10]: And Kim.com is one of these pro-Trump people.
[57:19.980 --> 57:24.240] [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, I just go on for a long, long time about the various things that bother me about that.
[57:24.240 --> 57:31.080] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I agree with you on those points, but I think that we should be fighting against Julian Assange.
[57:31.520 --> 57:33.040] [SPEAKER_10]: And that has never changed.
[57:33.260 --> 57:34.620] [SPEAKER_10]: That's never been the...
[57:34.620 --> 57:35.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Of course.
[57:35.140 --> 57:39.420] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there are some people that take that line and we should, like, be...
[57:39.420 --> 57:40.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, those people are wrong.
[57:40.600 --> 57:40.880] [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly.
[57:40.900 --> 57:45.120] [SPEAKER_02]: We should be articulating a stronger middle ground where we're taking free speech without...
[57:45.120 --> 57:50.880] [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, to be kicked out because you criticized somebody, which is what Barrett Brown did to Julian Assange, that's wrong.
[57:50.880 --> 57:52.520] [SPEAKER_10]: That is as wrong as anything.
[57:53.000 --> 57:55.880] [SPEAKER_10]: And this is something that, you know, we also need to speak up about.
[57:55.960 --> 57:57.780] [SPEAKER_10]: You can agree on one thing and disagree on another.
[57:57.860 --> 57:59.940] [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that's kind of our overall theme.
[58:00.480 --> 58:02.220] [SPEAKER_04]: At least he didn't take a security clearance.
[58:02.920 --> 58:03.740] [SPEAKER_10]: We don't know that yet.
[58:03.860 --> 58:06.060] [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, I haven't checked on you guys yet.
[58:06.100 --> 58:06.940] [SPEAKER_10]: You might have lost yours.
[58:07.060 --> 58:07.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, darn.
[58:07.560 --> 58:08.460] [SPEAKER_10]: For saying the things you said.
[58:09.000 --> 58:10.060] [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, hey, we're out of time.
[58:10.220 --> 58:10.700] [SPEAKER_10]: Write to us.
[58:10.820 --> 58:12.780] [SPEAKER_10]: oth@2600.com.
[58:13.300 --> 58:15.440] [SPEAKER_10]: And we will hopefully see you back again next week.
[58:15.560 --> 58:15.720] [SPEAKER_10]: Good night.
[58:28.720 --> 58:31.100] [SPEAKER_08]: We almost had it all.
[58:31.340 --> 58:34.840] [SPEAKER_08]: The scar of you, Lord, keeps me restless.
[58:35.420 --> 58:38.720] [SPEAKER_08]: I feel like I'm thinking we could have had it.
[58:40.260 --> 58:41.320] Never had sanity.
[58:41.980 --> 58:43.460] [SPEAKER_07]: Tears are gonna fall.
[58:43.920 --> 58:45.380] [SPEAKER_07]: Roll it in with me.
[58:46.100 --> 58:47.200] [SPEAKER_07]: You're gonna win you.
[58:47.700 --> 58:49.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Never had sanity.
[58:49.920 --> 58:51.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Tears are gonna fall.
[58:51.620 --> 58:53.120] [SPEAKER_07]: Roll it in with me.
[58:53.840 --> 58:57.160] [SPEAKER_08]: Baby, I have no story to be told.
[58:57.500 --> 58:59.340] [SPEAKER_08]: But I've had one on you.
[59:13.730 --> 59:17.490] [SPEAKER_08]: But it keeps me thinking we almost had it all.
[59:17.870 --> 59:20.270] The scar of you, Lord, keeps
[59:34.590 --> 59:35.390] me restless.
[59:35.390 --> 59:37.070] [SPEAKER_08]: And I want you to play this.
[59:37.330 --> 59:38.610] [SPEAKER_08]: To the beat.
[59:39.110 --> 59:40.530] [SPEAKER_08]: We could have had it all.
[59:51.230 --> 59:52.830] [SPEAKER_07]: And I want you to play this.
[59:53.170 --> 59:54.010] To the beat.
[59:54.270 --> 59:54.730] [SPEAKER_07]: To the beat.
[59:55.170 --> 59:55.490] [SPEAKER_07]: Baby, baby.
[59:55.870 --> 59:56.930] [SPEAKER_07]: You're gonna win you.
[59:57.450 --> 59:58.710] [SPEAKER_07]: Never had sanity.
[59:59.490 --> 01:00:00.830] [SPEAKER_07]: Tears are gonna fall.
[01:00:01.350 --> 01:00:02.810] [SPEAKER_07]: Roll it in with me.
[01:00:03.470 --> 01:00:04.650] [SPEAKER_07]: You're gonna win you.
[01:00:05.190 --> 01:00:06.490] [SPEAKER_07]: Never had sanity.