[00:00.000 --> 00:05.800] [SPEAKER_00]: As Native American people, why have we been reduced to a single word, a single silhouette?
[00:06.700 --> 00:07.640] [SPEAKER_00]: Red skin.
[00:08.120 --> 00:10.280] [SPEAKER_00]: One word, two syllables.
[00:11.080 --> 00:18.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Labeled in many dictionaries as a noun, dated or offensive, and simply defined in American Indian.
[00:19.840 --> 00:21.580] [SPEAKER_07]: This is John Kane.
[00:21.740 --> 00:24.580] [SPEAKER_07]: Join me for a free screening of More Than a Word.
[00:24.580 --> 00:26.800] [SPEAKER_07]: Thursday, September 27th, 7 p.m. at the Brooklyn Commons, 388 Atlantic Avenue, right here in Brooklyn, New York.
[00:32.540 --> 00:36.940] [SPEAKER_11]: And coming to you live from Brooklyn, New York, it's WBAI in New York.
[00:37.340 --> 00:40.920] [SPEAKER_11]: It's 8 o'clock, time once again for another edition of Off The Hook.
[02:07.260 --> 02:09.140] [SPEAKER_11]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:09.240 --> 02:10.860] [SPEAKER_11]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:11.360 --> 02:15.720] [SPEAKER_11]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Rob T. Firefly.
[02:16.480 --> 02:17.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[02:17.480 --> 02:17.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Alex.
[02:18.400 --> 02:18.800] [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[02:18.960 --> 02:19.400] [SPEAKER_11]: And Kyle.
[02:19.740 --> 02:19.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Oui.
[02:20.200 --> 02:20.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Quoi.
[02:20.740 --> 02:22.740] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, let's get right to it, shall we?
[02:22.740 --> 02:23.900] [SPEAKER_11]: We have a job to do.
[02:23.900 --> 02:34.140] [SPEAKER_11]: We've been hired out to do this, and we're going to use our brains and the resources of our listeners to try and solve the mystery as quickly as possible, because that's what hackers do.
[02:34.600 --> 02:41.860] [SPEAKER_11]: We have been tasked with figuring out who wrote the secret editorial that just appeared in the New York Times from inside the Trump administration.
[02:42.040 --> 02:43.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Did you guys hear about this?
[02:43.200 --> 02:49.520] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, obviously you did, because we've all got our thinking caps on and our notepads out, physical and virtual.
[02:50.020 --> 03:00.340] [SPEAKER_11]: And, yeah, for people listening in the future or for people listening, you know, who haven't been paying attention to anything else, there was an editorial that was printed in the New York Times today.
[03:01.540 --> 03:02.940] [SPEAKER_11]: This is how they prefaced it.
[03:02.980 --> 03:07.700] [SPEAKER_11]: They said, The Times today is taking the rare step of publishing an anonymous op-ed essay.
[03:07.980 --> 03:17.600] [SPEAKER_11]: We have done so at the request of the author, a senior official in the Trump administration, whose identity is known to us and whose job would be jeopardized by its disclosure.
[03:18.080 --> 03:23.220] [SPEAKER_11]: We believe publishing this essay anonymously is the only way to deliver an important perspective to our readers.
[03:23.220 --> 03:27.480] [SPEAKER_11]: We invite you to submit a question about the essay or our vetting process here.
[03:27.740 --> 03:29.000] [SPEAKER_11]: And, of course, I can't give you the link.
[03:29.280 --> 03:31.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I could read the link, I guess, but I can't.
[03:31.420 --> 03:32.360] [SPEAKER_11]: You can't click on it.
[03:33.360 --> 03:34.240] [SPEAKER_11]: So, yeah.
[03:34.480 --> 03:35.460] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, that's...
[03:35.460 --> 03:36.620] [SPEAKER_11]: It's unprecedented.
[03:37.000 --> 03:39.460] [SPEAKER_11]: This just happened a few hours ago.
[03:41.280 --> 03:43.880] [SPEAKER_11]: And people are wondering, who is this?
[03:43.880 --> 03:50.880] [SPEAKER_11]: Who is it that said these things that basically don't make Trump very, very happy?
[03:51.040 --> 03:53.200] [SPEAKER_11]: Give you a couple of quotes here.
[03:54.200 --> 04:02.940] [SPEAKER_11]: We believe our first duty is to this country, and the president continues to act in a manner that is detrimental to the health of our republic.
[04:03.740 --> 04:09.580] [SPEAKER_11]: Them's fighting words, especially if you're, you know, a senior member of the administration team.
[04:10.820 --> 04:13.620] [SPEAKER_11]: Meetings with him veer off-topic and off the rails.
[04:13.760 --> 04:21.980] [SPEAKER_11]: He engages in repetitive rants, and his impulsiveness results in half-baked, ill-informed, and occasionally reckless decisions that have to be walked back.
[04:22.740 --> 04:26.880] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, this isn't somebody on the outside.
[04:27.040 --> 04:30.780] [SPEAKER_11]: This is somebody on the inside, somebody on the inside who is still there.
[04:31.680 --> 04:35.780] [SPEAKER_11]: And that is what's amazing about this, the fact that they are still there.
[04:35.780 --> 04:36.920] [SPEAKER_11]: He doesn't know who they are.
[04:36.920 --> 04:39.400] [SPEAKER_11]: He's probably freaking out now.
[04:39.860 --> 04:49.400] [SPEAKER_11]: There's probably some kind of, you know, line up against a wall, and he's pacing back and forth and occasionally shouting in someone's face and trying to figure out who it is.
[04:50.120 --> 04:52.500] [SPEAKER_11]: And I just think that's kind of awesome.
[04:52.800 --> 04:57.460] [SPEAKER_05]: But do you think that Robert Mueller could be considered a senior administration official?
[04:57.460 --> 04:57.820] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I don't think so.
[04:57.840 --> 04:59.300] [SPEAKER_05]: Since he's part of the Department of Justice?
[04:59.920 --> 05:00.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't know.
[05:01.120 --> 05:05.560] [SPEAKER_11]: No, first of all, it would not be at all classy for him to do this.
[05:05.700 --> 05:06.600] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, of course.
[05:06.600 --> 05:08.620] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think he would be one of the people there.
[05:08.640 --> 05:11.540] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let me present some of my thoughts on this.
[05:11.680 --> 05:14.480] [SPEAKER_05]: I read this shortly before the show this evening.
[05:14.720 --> 05:33.240] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think if we want to try to deduce who this person could be, perhaps the first exercise in which we should engage is to determine which of the senior administration officials say a lot of words without actually saying things or imparting a lot of meaning.
[05:33.460 --> 05:34.260] [SPEAKER_05]: They all do that.
[05:34.280 --> 05:34.600] [SPEAKER_05]: What do you mean?
[05:34.600 --> 05:36.140] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, perhaps, yeah.
[05:36.720 --> 05:38.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Say a lot of words without saying anything.
[05:39.100 --> 05:39.640] [SPEAKER_11]: That's DC.
[05:40.720 --> 05:42.540] [SPEAKER_05]: Perhaps it's an art form down there.
[05:42.700 --> 05:50.780] [SPEAKER_05]: But who tends to kind of go on and on and make a lot of obvious points, but it doesn't really let you in on anything going on behind the scenes.
[05:50.780 --> 05:54.080] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it seems to me almost like somebody perhaps in the press office.
[05:54.600 --> 05:56.020] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a pretty studied art.
[05:56.120 --> 05:57.060] [SPEAKER_05]: Are you implicating Sarah?
[05:57.240 --> 05:58.480] [SPEAKER_05]: Because she's already condemned this.
[05:58.480 --> 06:00.080] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm implicating her in all kinds of things.
[06:00.160 --> 06:00.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Perhaps this.
[06:01.040 --> 06:01.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Why do we need to know?
[06:02.500 --> 06:04.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I mean, I just like figuring things out.
[06:05.280 --> 06:05.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, okay.
[06:05.700 --> 06:07.340] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's kind of, you know...
[06:07.340 --> 06:10.780] [SPEAKER_11]: Plus, I want to take some bets on this, make it interesting.
[06:11.140 --> 06:11.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Got it.
[06:11.420 --> 06:12.600] [SPEAKER_11]: If we have a pool going...
[06:12.600 --> 06:14.580] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm told we can do this for this particular thing.
[06:14.640 --> 06:19.820] [SPEAKER_11]: It's illegal usually, but we can take bets on this particular item because it's of national importance.
[06:19.820 --> 06:24.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I do think, though, I don't really necessarily believe that it's somebody in the press office.
[06:25.900 --> 06:33.500] [SPEAKER_05]: Whoever the source was did go on here and there about the attacks on the press and how it destroys civility and discourse suffers and whatnot.
[06:34.040 --> 06:36.840] [SPEAKER_05]: But he also did mention quite a few things about...
[06:36.840 --> 06:45.720] [SPEAKER_05]: He or she, I should say, mentioned quite a few issues with Donald Trump's destruction of federal institutions.
[06:45.720 --> 07:04.140] [SPEAKER_05]: And when he mentions that, I think he or she is referring specifically to the intelligence community and the law enforcement community, notably agencies like CIA, NSA, and FBI, because they've all been summarily ignored with respect to Russian threats and other such activities.
[07:04.480 --> 07:11.020] [SPEAKER_05]: So my guess is that this would be somebody who is either in a law enforcement or intelligence capacity.
[07:11.560 --> 07:12.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[07:12.180 --> 07:15.060] [SPEAKER_11]: And thank you, by the way, for saying he or she, because nobody in the mass media is doing that.
[07:15.060 --> 07:18.380] [SPEAKER_11]: They're all saying he, and I think it could easily be a she.
[07:19.060 --> 07:19.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[07:19.900 --> 07:23.300] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, not so easily, because the Trump administration doesn't have a whole lot of she's.
[07:23.340 --> 07:28.540] [SPEAKER_05]: Not so many left, but think about Sally Yates and the stand that she took when she was head of DOJ.
[07:28.800 --> 07:30.920] [SPEAKER_11]: So, yeah, this could very well be a woman.
[07:31.060 --> 07:39.080] [SPEAKER_11]: By the way, I've been told that I was incorrect in saying that it would be legal for us to gamble on this, on the air, or on anything else.
[07:39.160 --> 07:39.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, that's right.
[07:39.760 --> 07:41.920] [SPEAKER_11]: So please just forget I said that.
[07:42.160 --> 07:43.180] [SPEAKER_11]: I was in error.
[07:43.180 --> 07:44.040] [SPEAKER_11]: I misinterpreted.
[07:44.040 --> 07:45.880] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this could be sort of a game of skill.
[07:46.140 --> 07:50.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, let's just do it for our own, you know, mental challenges here.
[07:51.140 --> 08:00.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, just to give you an idea, I'm trying to determine when they say a senior official in the Trump administration is how many people like that are there?
[08:01.140 --> 08:02.740] [SPEAKER_11]: How many senior officials are there?
[08:02.740 --> 08:06.600] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, I found a bunch of organizations, and here's a list.
[08:06.780 --> 08:19.240] [SPEAKER_11]: Office of the Chief of Staff, Domestic Policy Council, National Economic Council, the Office of Cabinet Affairs, Communications, Digital Strategy, Office of the First Lady.
[08:19.740 --> 08:21.300] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, wouldn't that be something?
[08:21.680 --> 08:23.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Office of Information Technology.
[08:24.520 --> 08:26.040] [SPEAKER_11]: I think we got some friends there.
[08:26.200 --> 08:27.120] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe, who knows?
[08:27.540 --> 08:31.000] [SPEAKER_11]: Office of Intergovernmental Affairs, Office of Legislative Affairs.
[08:31.080 --> 08:34.280] [SPEAKER_11]: See, we don't know half these organizations, so it could be somebody in there.
[08:34.520 --> 08:51.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Office of Management and Administration, Office of the National Security Advisor, Political Affairs, Presidential Personnel is an office of that, Public Liaison, Office of Scheduling and Advance, Office of the Staff Secretary, Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy,
[08:51.520 --> 08:55.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Office of the White House Council, and Oval Office Operations.
[08:55.340 --> 09:03.820] [SPEAKER_11]: So, I assume any leader of those organizations will be considered a senior official in the Trump administration.
[09:04.340 --> 09:05.120] [SPEAKER_11]: Correct me if I'm wrong.
[09:05.260 --> 09:06.500] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I think that's correct.
[09:06.500 --> 09:11.820] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, what senior means here could mean any different... or any number of things to any number of people.
[09:12.120 --> 09:15.880] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, in the federal service, you have the GS level of seniority.
[09:16.080 --> 09:26.760] [SPEAKER_05]: So, somebody with, let's say, a GS-15 pay status could be considered a senior administration official, and then you have higher levels than that, which are SES, or the Senior Executive Service in the intelligence community.
[09:26.760 --> 09:32.780] [SPEAKER_05]: You have SIS levels, or Senior Intelligence Service, and those are more of the executive-level positions.
[09:32.780 --> 09:50.340] [SPEAKER_05]: Given the breadth of what was discussed in this particular op-ed, notably discussions centering around Russia, discussions about the media, it seems like this is somebody who's not at the GS-15 level or senior in the sense of they've just been promoted to SES level.
[09:50.460 --> 10:10.100] [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is somebody who actually does have a lot of White House access, and specifically access to the West Wing, where he or she sees what's going on and understands what's being put forth in front of the president and what's being held back from the public that the president would like to engage in.
[10:10.220 --> 10:25.200] [SPEAKER_05]: Because there's a lot of activities that are discussed in this particular op-ed that make it very clear that there are other administration officials, like this person, that are preventing Donald Trump from doing what he would like to be doing.
[10:25.460 --> 10:34.840] [SPEAKER_05]: And this person would only have that particular knowledge if it was a highly senior person who would have access to the West Wing and know about these happenings on a daily basis.
[10:35.520 --> 10:37.440] [SPEAKER_10]: And these are all good clues.
[10:37.660 --> 10:40.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Another clue that was brought to my attention.
[10:42.060 --> 10:51.780] [SPEAKER_10]: One thing that hackers and investigators and people like that like to investigate and use as a clue is sort of getting the writing style of something anonymous and figuring out what it matches up to.
[10:52.200 --> 11:01.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Someone I know on Twitter called Minus Baby pointed something very interesting out, which is that the writer of this op-ed used the archaic word lodestar.
[11:01.480 --> 11:02.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I saw that.
[11:02.520 --> 11:05.520] [SPEAKER_10]: Which is also an archaic word that Mike Pence likes to use a lot.
[11:06.240 --> 11:07.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh my God, really?
[11:07.960 --> 11:08.980] [SPEAKER_10]: You think it's Mike Pence?
[11:09.120 --> 11:10.500] [SPEAKER_10]: So maybe we're all thinking too small.
[11:10.600 --> 11:15.620] [SPEAKER_10]: And maybe it's a senior official in the Trump administration with access in the sense that it could be the vice president.
[11:15.620 --> 11:26.140] [SPEAKER_11]: It's spooky because we were talking about this on the other radio show yesterday and about how Mike Pence, you know, horror that he is, would be preferable because at least our lives wouldn't be an imminent danger as they are right now.
[11:26.780 --> 11:33.260] [SPEAKER_11]: But wow, that would be something if he turned out or somebody in his office turned out to be lodestar.
[11:33.420 --> 11:33.560] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[11:34.340 --> 11:36.860] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I think today might have been the first time I even saw that word.
[11:37.460 --> 11:38.620] [SPEAKER_11]: So that's... there you go, Rob.
[11:38.700 --> 11:39.060] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a clue.
[11:39.160 --> 11:39.700] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a good clue.
[11:39.840 --> 11:55.740] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the other clue that lends credence to this particular theory is the fact that whoever the author was noted specifically that they were not part of the left resistance, that they believe in these Republican ideals and that Donald Trump has been trampling all over these Republican ideals for a really long time.
[11:55.800 --> 11:56.640] [SPEAKER_05]: He doesn't take them to heart.
[11:56.660 --> 11:58.200] [SPEAKER_05]: He's not a real Republican.
[11:58.460 --> 12:06.900] [SPEAKER_05]: And that there have been great things that the administration has done in this person's view, like major tax cuts, deregulation.
[12:06.900 --> 12:09.900] [SPEAKER_05]: These are all pinnacles of the Republican Party's ideals.
[12:10.560 --> 12:24.420] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, I think the fact that that's in there also indicates that this is somebody who leans very much to the right, like somebody who could be in the vice president's office right now, perhaps, or in the... where does he live?
[12:24.480 --> 12:25.420] [SPEAKER_05]: The Naval Observatory?
[12:25.560 --> 12:26.360] [SPEAKER_05]: Something like that, I think.
[12:26.420 --> 12:26.960] [SPEAKER_05]: The vice president.
[12:27.100 --> 12:28.060] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the vice president, I think.
[12:28.460 --> 12:34.240] [SPEAKER_11]: Honestly, you know, Pence kisses up so much, he'd have to be a really good actor to pull this off.
[12:34.280 --> 12:35.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that would be really stunning.
[12:35.640 --> 12:35.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[12:36.020 --> 12:37.720] [SPEAKER_11]: I'd be afraid of him then, more afraid of him.
[12:38.060 --> 12:46.100] [SPEAKER_04]: He is one of his, the biggest, uh, apologists and, uh, and, uh, cover, he covers for the president constantly.
[12:46.360 --> 12:55.680] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I just, just doesn't seem fitting unless it is, uh, as was, um, mentioned, I think, uh, in the course of the coverage today, some kind of alarm bell.
[12:55.880 --> 13:02.420] [SPEAKER_11]: But you know why he's such a kiss up is because he wants the job and he knows he can get the job.
[13:02.520 --> 13:08.020] [SPEAKER_11]: He knows that he's, he's got a really good shot at having that because there's no way Trump will last.
[13:08.220 --> 13:13.740] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, so for him to risk everything by putting out this piece now, having it be exposed as him.
[13:14.380 --> 13:17.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I, I don't think he, but somebody, somebody who hangs out with him.
[13:18.080 --> 13:21.400] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I think that is, uh, that is definitely a good theory.
[13:21.540 --> 13:35.400] [SPEAKER_05]: On the other hand, if this is a person with the insider access that we are presuming that they have, this person could have inside knowledge about, uh, the inner workings and unravelings of this presidency to the extent that if it was somebody like Mike Pence,
[13:35.540 --> 13:53.420] [SPEAKER_05]: if he were to come out and step out anonymously first and then de-anonymize himself as the author of this op-ed, standing up for Republican ideals, he could very easily step into the, um, the shoes of the presidency and become himself the load star of the Republican Party.
[13:53.680 --> 13:55.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I, I kind of follow that.
[13:55.500 --> 14:09.700] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be, um, uh, a sound tactic, uh, because then he would come, he would be able to distance, I think, from the culpability that I, I talked about on, um, uh, uh, our show yesterday and, and discussion there with this, uh, news.
[14:09.820 --> 14:16.500] [SPEAKER_04]: And it just seemed that, uh, you know, if he was just biding his time, it would still be a bad look for him, uh, coming in.
[14:16.660 --> 14:25.520] [SPEAKER_04]: But, uh, on the other hand, you know, if, if, um, this president's really going down and he can come out looking like a hero, that's a different narrative.
[14:25.520 --> 14:29.400] [SPEAKER_04]: That works, that plays, like, that's a, that's the kind of president we want.
[14:29.560 --> 14:30.960] [SPEAKER_11]: He's sticking up for our country.
[14:30.960 --> 14:40.360] [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of people saying that, uh, this person, whoever this person is, should, uh, resign and, uh, identify themselves because, uh, you're a coward and the people on the left and the right are saying this.
[14:40.440 --> 14:42.820] [SPEAKER_11]: You're a coward if you say these things and don't identify yourself.
[14:42.980 --> 14:49.880] [SPEAKER_11]: But I have a different feeling on it because you have somebody like this inside and you don't know who that person is.
[14:50.020 --> 14:54.840] [SPEAKER_11]: That person can do a tremendous amount of good by revealing things as they happen.
[14:55.060 --> 14:58.380] [SPEAKER_11]: If you, if you resign and leave, who do you think is going to replace you?
[14:58.460 --> 15:01.800] [SPEAKER_11]: Not somebody with your standards, somebody else who's going to do exactly what they're told.
[15:01.960 --> 15:03.100] [SPEAKER_11]: And what do you gain from that?
[15:03.180 --> 15:05.520] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's far better to have somebody in there.
[15:05.620 --> 15:09.460] [SPEAKER_11]: And the, the, the bonus about all that is that it drives Trump crazy.
[15:09.460 --> 15:12.680] [SPEAKER_11]: He is out of his mind tonight trying to figure this out.
[15:13.080 --> 15:18.160] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, uh, and, and I hear lie detectors are being wheeled into the White House as we speak.
[15:18.400 --> 15:20.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, polygraph machines, all, all sorts of things.
[15:21.020 --> 15:29.800] [SPEAKER_11]: I, I, you know, I would not want to be a senior Trump official right now because, uh, they're all kind of be, uh, well, they're all going to be, uh, a question rather harshly.
[15:29.860 --> 15:47.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Do not forget how important loyalty was like the loyalty oath when we were hearing about the, uh, federal investigation that Comey had, uh, sort of been in charge of as, uh, as he was leading FBI at the time, all of that loyalty stuff that came out that was really like egregious and,
[15:47.420 --> 15:55.160] [SPEAKER_04]: and alarming was, was, uh, uh, revealed to be so incredibly important to, um, to him personally.
[15:55.160 --> 15:59.060] [SPEAKER_04]: And now just thinking of it, and that, that was kind of my point with like, what, why do we need to know?
[15:59.140 --> 16:00.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we don't really need to know.
[16:00.200 --> 16:15.080] [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, that was why by design, why this was on, on, you know, unveiled and, uh, uh, um, uh, released and timed and, and, uh, done in the way and the structure, um, to protect people and allow it to fester, right?
[16:15.200 --> 16:17.140] [SPEAKER_04]: That is a tactic in and of itself.
[16:17.160 --> 16:36.440] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, especially for someone, like you said, that could affect from the inside, uh, and report from the inside and, uh, and also, um, have, have this, this unintended effect or sort of side effect of, of him, uh, in his role as president looking over his shoulder constantly.
[16:36.440 --> 16:51.800] [SPEAKER_04]: And as you said, reeling in, you know, the, the polygraph machines and everything, it's just, everything's on the table all of a sudden in a moment, in a moment when he needs as much of the like technology and the teams and the assistance and the cohesion to,
[16:51.820 --> 16:59.460] [SPEAKER_04]: uh, to keep the media at bay and also handle his private, you know, affairs and stuff.
[16:59.760 --> 17:12.620] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, um, it's, it's just amazing that, um, just this, the specter, just the suggestion that he could have disloyalty at this very moment, uh, is, is, uh, just crushing, I'm sure.
[17:12.900 --> 17:15.580] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, and as you said, leading to the aggravation there.
[17:15.760 --> 17:18.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you know, we, we, we, we need to know for a variety of reasons.
[17:19.060 --> 17:24.800] [SPEAKER_11]: At some point we need to know, uh, because, um, otherwise it can be claimed that this person doesn't actually exist.
[17:25.240 --> 17:29.760] [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, to believe that you would have to think the New York Times is in on the whole thing.
[17:29.960 --> 17:40.740] [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, uh, uh, Trump says that sort of thing all the time and his followers will also believe that the Times is, is taking part in, in, in, in something akin to a coup right now.
[17:40.980 --> 17:48.600] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and that is the talk you will be hearing over the next few days, uh, who is behind this and who is helping them and, uh, why won't they come forward?
[17:49.060 --> 17:52.120] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's, it's, you know, important to legitimize these things.
[17:52.280 --> 18:00.380] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think what you might see, uh, is that this person writing this particular piece in the Times today is not just one person.
[18:00.560 --> 18:04.020] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, they, they refer to themselves in the plural a couple of times.
[18:04.020 --> 18:12.400] [SPEAKER_11]: They say that, um, uh, people have, uh, have taken a vow, I believe, to, um, to, um, uh, protect the country.
[18:12.540 --> 18:12.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Here it is.
[18:13.060 --> 18:23.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, that is why many Trump appointees have vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump's more misguided impulses until he is out of office.
[18:23.940 --> 18:27.560] [SPEAKER_11]: That's something that you say after discussing it with other people.
[18:27.680 --> 18:29.320] [SPEAKER_11]: It's not just one person mouthing off.
[18:29.500 --> 18:32.080] [SPEAKER_11]: That's somebody who has talked to a bunch of other people.
[18:32.300 --> 18:39.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, you know, what's also interesting about that particular sentence is there's a, uh, a hyperlink in there, uh, under vowed to do what we can.
[18:39.920 --> 18:46.400] [SPEAKER_11]: It links to a story from the Times, I believe yesterday, um, concerning the, um, uh, the new book that just came out.
[18:46.960 --> 18:50.660] [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, it's interesting that, that they're linking to that.
[18:50.780 --> 19:00.560] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if the link was, was made at the suggestion of the submitter or if they're simply trying to make it more relevant, I think that should be pointed out if, if, if, uh, the person instructed them to make that particular link.
[19:00.860 --> 19:07.020] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but, um, it's, uh, it just shows you that this is not an isolated instance.
[19:07.200 --> 19:11.380] [SPEAKER_11]: This, this represents a lot of things that are going on in that particular place right now.
[19:11.580 --> 19:29.140] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it shatters the narrative of the deep state in a lot of ways because it's a pivot from the, the, the tunnel vision that that narrative has about intelligence being against freedom, being against this, uh, uh, administration or success in general of our country.
[19:29.520 --> 19:45.060] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, you know, when you have people that were picked by the president, ostensibly picked and replaced over and over again in the last two years or whatever, but whatever it's settled to now, having made, as you said, a pact, like an agreement, which is suggested in the language there,
[19:45.660 --> 19:52.340] [SPEAKER_04]: it is, it is, uh, is just amazing, uh, uh, to, to, um, to imagine.
[19:52.560 --> 20:01.220] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and I'm just, I think that, uh, definitely that, uh, extra perspective of people who were purported to be loyal now.
[20:01.560 --> 20:06.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, well, how could you argue they are like deep state or that this is an attribute of that?
[20:07.000 --> 20:10.940] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, no, it's not related, but gee, is the sentiment not similar?
[20:11.300 --> 20:11.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.
[20:11.780 --> 20:13.140] [SPEAKER_04]: Is there truth to that?
[20:13.280 --> 20:13.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[20:13.420 --> 20:15.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that then substantiate it?
[20:15.360 --> 20:17.720] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, and again, shatters that idea.
[20:18.360 --> 20:18.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[20:18.800 --> 20:33.140] [SPEAKER_05]: And, and building off of that and what Emmanuel said, uh, I would not be surprised to ultimately find out that there was not a singular author to this particular piece that it might've been authored by a number of individuals and then submitted anonymously to the New York times.
[20:33.280 --> 20:35.620] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I would have signed to Spartacus.
[20:35.780 --> 20:36.520] [SPEAKER_11]: I just would have done that.
[20:36.580 --> 20:37.280] [SPEAKER_11]: I think that would have been cool.
[20:37.340 --> 20:38.740] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I, I, I think so too.
[20:38.820 --> 20:44.820] [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, also to bounce off what you had originally said is that, you know, you're absolutely right.
[20:44.820 --> 20:49.800] [SPEAKER_05]: I think to say that having people on the inside is really going to drive him nuts.
[20:50.020 --> 21:09.060] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just something that I've always felt since I was in law school, that, uh, change can come from within the federal government as opposed to without, and that we should, as the article says, rise above this tribalistic notion of politics and the divisions that Trump himself have created.
[21:09.340 --> 21:18.840] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we need to identify our common ideals as Americans, have those become our, our unifying characteristics and ignore this nonsense that is destroying our discourse.
[21:19.540 --> 21:31.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and this issue of, of change coming from within as opposed to without, uh, which is why I don't think that we should be so quick to cast aspersions on anybody working within the federal government.
[21:31.920 --> 21:35.940] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, anybody who works with the Trump administration, they're not necessarily bad people.
[21:36.100 --> 21:40.080] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, even people, uh, and I'll, this will be an unpopular view on this station.
[21:40.240 --> 21:46.060] [SPEAKER_05]: Even people I submit that work for immigration and customs enforcement, there are going to be good people.
[21:46.160 --> 21:50.840] [SPEAKER_11]: You mean like the guy that cuts the grass or something or how high up are you going in that organization?
[21:51.020 --> 21:54.120] [SPEAKER_05]: I think pretty high up because change is going to have to come from the top.
[21:54.220 --> 21:57.160] [SPEAKER_05]: The change often comes from legal memoranda that are written.
[21:57.440 --> 22:05.060] [SPEAKER_05]: When I went and worked for CIA many years ago, I was called by some of my, uh, law school classmates, a war profiteer.
[22:05.380 --> 22:12.640] [SPEAKER_05]: And I made the same case back then, many years ago, that, you know, it was easier for me to effect change from within than it would be from without.
[22:12.820 --> 22:15.100] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but you also weren't separating kids from their parents.
[22:15.280 --> 22:16.820] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, that's, ice is kind of like...
[22:16.820 --> 22:17.580] [SPEAKER_11]: You don't know that.
[22:17.860 --> 22:18.660] [SPEAKER_11]: You don't know that.
[22:19.240 --> 22:20.880] [SPEAKER_11]: I'd like to assume that's not the case.
[22:21.000 --> 22:21.200] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[22:21.200 --> 22:22.920] [SPEAKER_11]: But, um, yeah, I hear what you're saying.
[22:23.040 --> 22:33.740] [SPEAKER_11]: And I, I agree to some extent that a lot can be done from within, but at some point you have to realize that you don't belong there, that you're not part of that particular group of people and that you are working against them.
[22:33.900 --> 22:49.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, what this person says, uh, is that, um, a lot of what has been done so far, such as, uh, tax reform, deregulation, military things, uh, it's all good, uh, but, uh, it's happening despite, not because of Trump.
[22:50.460 --> 23:04.980] [SPEAKER_11]: So yeah, these are, this is a person that, uh, obviously has, uh, different viewpoints than, than a lot of us, but yeah, you, you, you still can't say, uh, that this person isn't doing something good because yes, you can do good things even if you disagree politically.
[23:05.320 --> 23:11.780] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think, you know, decent people, regardless of what kind of hat they wear, um, will always come through in the end.
[23:11.980 --> 23:13.860] [SPEAKER_11]: And that's what we are at now.
[23:14.020 --> 23:18.940] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, we are, we are at that particular stage and, you know, I know a lot of people are rolling their eyes and saying, what does this have to do with hacking?
[23:19.060 --> 23:19.860] [SPEAKER_11]: What does it do with technology?
[23:20.040 --> 23:27.800] [SPEAKER_11]: It has everything to do with it because hackers notice things, hackers are able to tell, uh, when something is amiss and we're able to see the fine details.
[23:28.420 --> 23:34.540] [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, a lot of smart people are in the hacker community that, um, uh, get things well before the populace.
[23:34.620 --> 23:40.760] [SPEAKER_11]: We are at a stage right now where I honestly don't know, uh, what state this country will be in in another week.
[23:41.100 --> 23:46.880] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we, we, we could have, um, uh, a turnover, um, at the highest level within the next few days.
[23:47.480 --> 23:53.480] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, um, it's something I know a lot of people are hoping for myself included, but, uh, how that happens, it's going to be very, very telling.
[23:53.620 --> 24:02.740] [SPEAKER_11]: We are at a precipice and it would be, uh, kind of irresponsible to talk about the latest vulnerabilities and windows at this particular point.
[24:02.900 --> 24:03.240] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[24:03.440 --> 24:17.240] [SPEAKER_05]: I, you know, and to make a counterpoint here, since I think we've all been speaking, you know, in fairly laudatory terms about this particular op-ed, you know, one point I would like to bring up is, you know, did this really say anything that we didn't know already?
[24:17.600 --> 24:18.060] [SPEAKER_05]: No, nothing.
[24:18.500 --> 24:21.160] [SPEAKER_11]: But it, it came from within his people.
[24:21.340 --> 24:23.540] [SPEAKER_11]: That's the, that's what's so telling about it.
[24:23.600 --> 24:23.720] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[24:23.900 --> 24:33.580] [SPEAKER_11]: This is what people have been saying from the very beginning, but to hear it confirmed from the inside and to know that there are people there that are as, as, as described grownups in the room.
[24:33.680 --> 24:34.740] [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, it's interesting.
[24:34.980 --> 24:36.800] [SPEAKER_11]: The first time John Kelly gave a press conference.
[24:36.980 --> 24:42.540] [SPEAKER_11]: I remember the media going nuts saying, at last, as an adult in the room, you know, that, that phrase kind of stuck.
[24:42.800 --> 24:47.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, so it could be somebody, um, in, in his particular corner of the office there.
[24:48.120 --> 24:48.260] [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[24:48.260 --> 24:55.540] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, another point then that just brings it back to the usual topic of our, uh, ordinary conversations here on Off The Hook.
[24:56.000 --> 25:01.820] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I don't really necessarily care who the anonymous source or sources, uh, is or are.
[25:02.080 --> 25:09.220] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, what would be more interesting to me is an article about how they communicated with this.
[25:09.340 --> 25:11.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's, I'm glad you mentioned it because that's the next thing I want to talk about.
[25:12.300 --> 25:17.600] [SPEAKER_11]: I, I, I'm pretty sure it had to be through secure drop, which we talked about last week on this show.
[25:17.860 --> 25:19.180] [SPEAKER_11]: 2600 has secure drop.
[25:19.280 --> 25:21.680] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, we got some interesting pieces since the last show.
[25:21.820 --> 25:25.420] [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, some people just said hi in the, in the message thing.
[25:25.560 --> 25:27.480] [SPEAKER_11]: We have no idea who you are, but hi back.
[25:27.940 --> 25:31.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, other people wanted to know about, uh, uh, encrypt how they can encrypt things.
[25:31.980 --> 25:41.120] [SPEAKER_11]: And you know what, you don't have to encrypt things, uh, anymore because it already gets encrypted when you, um, uh, drop it into the secure drop, uh, uh, application.
[25:41.360 --> 25:43.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and we have to decrypt it on our end.
[25:43.540 --> 25:46.460] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, the, um, the computer we use is in a different location.
[25:46.520 --> 25:47.840] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's, uh, air gap.
[25:47.920 --> 25:48.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Is that the right word, Kyle?
[25:49.260 --> 25:49.400] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[25:49.600 --> 25:50.240] [SPEAKER_11]: Among other things.
[25:50.320 --> 25:52.540] [SPEAKER_11]: Which means it's not connected to the Internet at any time.
[25:52.940 --> 25:53.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Correct.
[25:53.480 --> 25:53.660] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[25:53.880 --> 26:01.260] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, there's a whole bunch of, uh, procedures and layers and, um, just a lot of stuff to set you up for the best possible security.
[26:01.400 --> 26:06.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Of course, we're always physically move data from one place to another under guard, by the way.
[26:06.960 --> 26:07.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[26:07.300 --> 26:09.380] [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, that machine is never connected.
[26:09.500 --> 26:26.340] [SPEAKER_11]: So you, there is no possibility that I can see where, um, where there could be a leak here, unless it's on the sending end where somebody is reading out loud what they're typing or, uh, you know, if, if, if we got on a megaphone and, and, but we still wouldn't know who the person was and we don't know who the people are that are,
[26:26.340 --> 26:26.980] [SPEAKER_11]: that are giving us.
[26:26.980 --> 26:37.140] [SPEAKER_11]: And, and the New York times does not, well, they, they would find out who the person was through that communication by having a back and forth dialogue and saying, okay, we need some way of knowing that you're legit.
[26:37.240 --> 26:39.540] [SPEAKER_11]: And they, they confirm that in their own way.
[26:39.880 --> 26:53.200] [SPEAKER_04]: I would, um, I would just add that, uh, in a lot of the main, um, mainstream publications and a lot of these leaks and revelations, um, you will not see any mention of the platform that was used.
[26:55.200 --> 27:04.700] [SPEAKER_04]: There are myriad ways you can do, uh, essentially the same functional thing, uh, in the analog realm, you know, you can devise your own system with a shoe boxes or something.
[27:04.820 --> 27:05.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[27:05.180 --> 27:15.440] [SPEAKER_04]: But the, the point is, um, it is part of the operational structure and the, um, suggested, um, uh, best practice not to, to, uh, cite the platform.
[27:15.680 --> 27:15.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[27:16.020 --> 27:17.500] [SPEAKER_11]: You'll notice it's, it's never cited.
[27:17.560 --> 27:22.720] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, when we get leaks, we are not going to say, by the way, uh, well, I did just say, someone said hi to us.
[27:22.740 --> 27:24.300] [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't think that was, that was particularly dramatic.
[27:24.560 --> 27:35.180] [SPEAKER_11]: But if we, if we get something of say like, you know, tax returns or, or audio tapes or videotapes or things like that of certain things or people, uh, we won't admit that that came exactly from that particular.
[27:35.240 --> 27:35.800] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you don't know.
[27:35.940 --> 27:39.320] [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't like a DVD we picked up under like a piece of trash.
[27:39.440 --> 27:40.120] [SPEAKER_04]: No, you'll never know.
[27:40.120 --> 27:40.820] [SPEAKER_04]: We won't tell you.
[27:40.940 --> 27:41.420] [SPEAKER_11]: We won't tell you.
[27:41.480 --> 27:46.420] [SPEAKER_11]: That's part of the security, but, uh, it's just good to know these things are out there and people can use them.
[27:46.520 --> 27:48.820] [SPEAKER_11]: And there are, as you say, other ones as well.
[27:49.160 --> 27:51.760] [SPEAKER_11]: But if it was something like secure drop, that is how they would have done it.
[27:51.840 --> 28:03.440] [SPEAKER_11]: They would have, uh, initiated contact, um, and, and, um, they are able to preserve their identity up until a point where they feel comfortable talking to a particular person or meeting in a particular place.
[28:03.640 --> 28:05.180] [SPEAKER_11]: And that is how these things are done.
[28:05.220 --> 28:09.980] [SPEAKER_11]: It's not, it's not just dropping something onto a website like, uh, you know, with WikiLeaks or something like that.
[28:10.320 --> 28:17.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, this is, you control how it, how it, um, is distributed, who you talk to and, um, and, and where it goes from there.
[28:18.200 --> 28:18.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[28:18.500 --> 28:27.560] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, another caveat with this in particular, like just the, um, the, uh, opinion piece, it's, uh, a part of the New York Times that is compartmentalized as the editorial department.
[28:27.680 --> 28:31.840] [SPEAKER_04]: This has been mentioned a lot in the coverage today, but it's, uh, crucial, uh, to think about it.
[28:31.900 --> 28:40.440] [SPEAKER_04]: But the organization itself, um, probably doesn't have access to, uh, whatever infrastructure they've used to, uh, keep the source anonymous.
[28:40.680 --> 28:42.040] [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, it's probably just that department.
[28:42.040 --> 28:53.400] [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably just a couple of people working on it, just the critical, uh, individuals, uh, to help, you know, uh, uh, get that, um, that story to, to light and, uh, nurture it along the way.
[28:53.540 --> 29:03.360] [SPEAKER_04]: And they probably did, um, uh, uh, reveal or otherwise verify in some way to one or, you know, just a, a, a very small compartmentalized group within the New York Times.
[29:03.520 --> 29:04.200] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't want to know.
[29:04.300 --> 29:08.880] [SPEAKER_11]: I would be surprised if more than one or two people at the Times knew the true identity at this point.
[29:09.120 --> 29:09.400] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[29:09.760 --> 29:09.940] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:10.340 --> 29:10.500] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:10.620 --> 29:10.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:10.720 --> 29:26.500] [SPEAKER_05]: And Kyle, you mentioned compartmentalization, and I think that's a really interesting point to make because here you have a very clear example of the ways in which the media operates very similarly to an intelligence agency where you have, uh, confidential sources,
[29:26.700 --> 29:27.880] [SPEAKER_05]: assets essentially, right?
[29:28.380 --> 29:38.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and the sources and methods by which that information is collected from these particular assets is a very highly guarded secret that is compartmentalized to only a few people.
[29:38.840 --> 29:46.720] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's the equivalent of having TS/SCI, you know, plus clearance in the federal government, that only a few people are going to have access to this.
[29:46.820 --> 29:48.800] [SPEAKER_05]: Nobody really sees the entire picture.
[29:49.140 --> 30:02.640] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and I think it's incredibly important that this kind of information and the sources and methods are protected because we're already seeing the president making these nonsensical tweets about this being a national security issue.
[30:02.800 --> 30:02.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[30:02.960 --> 30:06.720] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, there was one tweet a couple of hours ago just said, all caps treason question mark.
[30:07.000 --> 30:10.660] [SPEAKER_11]: First of all, why are you asking a question about, you know, whether it's something that you should know?
[30:11.040 --> 30:13.140] [SPEAKER_11]: And second of all, of course, it's not treason.
[30:13.420 --> 30:19.220] [SPEAKER_11]: What national security issues have, uh, other than you being a menace to, uh, you know, to the entire country?
[30:19.420 --> 30:22.880] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, no, that it's not a treasonous, um, uh, issue at all.
[30:23.460 --> 30:30.980] [SPEAKER_04]: You're being a menace, I was just going to add a menace, uh, uh, uh, I was ad-libbing, uh, to, to the very idea of national security, uh, rather.
[30:31.540 --> 30:38.600] [SPEAKER_11]: The other, yeah, the other tweet that, uh, he just put out, uh, more recently, does the so-called, uh, senior administration official, unquote, uh, really exist?
[30:38.880 --> 30:42.240] [SPEAKER_11]: Or is it just the failing New York Times with another phony source?
[30:42.540 --> 30:51.900] [SPEAKER_11]: If the gutless, all caps, anonymous person does indeed exist, the Times must, for national security purposes, turn him or her over to government at once.
[30:52.240 --> 30:56.040] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I cannot believe this is what this guy is, turn him over to the government.
[30:56.060 --> 30:57.600] [SPEAKER_11]: That just sounds so evil right there.
[30:57.740 --> 30:59.440] [SPEAKER_11]: But he really believes this.
[30:59.920 --> 31:01.680] [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, that's not going to happen.
[31:01.960 --> 31:06.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, in the same tweet, he's, uh, calling the New York Times failing, and he's also asking them a massive favor.
[31:06.520 --> 31:08.280] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, this guy's supposed to be a great negotiator.
[31:08.340 --> 31:11.600] [SPEAKER_11]: He's not asking, he's telling them, you must turn them over to the government right away.
[31:11.760 --> 31:17.280] [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, yeah, that's, uh, I think everybody realizes that is not something that is imminent.
[31:17.580 --> 31:23.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Another, um, uh, really interesting thing that I thought is worth mentioning is sort of the social engineering aspect of Trump.
[31:23.560 --> 31:24.540] [SPEAKER_04]: He's so two faced.
[31:24.800 --> 31:35.680] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and where, where I got that is, uh, this, uh, Bob, uh, uh, Woodward, uh, tape, uh, he recorded this call and it's, it's, it's just about the book being released.
[31:35.700 --> 31:40.400] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, Hey, Mr. President, you know, there's this thing that's gonna, you know, would you like to come?
[31:40.500 --> 31:47.120] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's talking about this, um, you know, communications that he had had within Trump and Trump is feigning ignorance.
[31:47.260 --> 31:47.880] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[31:48.000 --> 31:48.340] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[31:48.420 --> 31:48.940] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't talk.
[31:49.080 --> 31:51.000] [SPEAKER_04]: I would have loved to be in your book basically.
[31:51.000 --> 32:01.340] [SPEAKER_04]: So he can deny, you know, plausibly deny his lack of contribution and then, uh, label the cast it aside as, as a negative failed book, whatever.
[32:01.680 --> 32:16.460] [SPEAKER_04]: It totally shows how two faced he is because he's, he's, uh, there's evidence that, that, uh, you know, Bob had made the efforts and he documented his own sort of work and, and, and vetting and getting permission and access.
[32:16.860 --> 32:21.540] [SPEAKER_04]: And then here he is literally, you know, talking to the guy, uh, uh, directly.
[32:21.940 --> 32:29.220] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and through this recording, we hear Trump, um, talk about how he didn't know and how we have loved to do this and that and the other thing.
[32:29.340 --> 32:42.320] [SPEAKER_04]: And, and how honest he thinks Bob is, he's just this complete facade of, of, uh, um, uh, what I would say is like sort of a social engineering, but it's, uh, I don't know, more sociopathic or something.
[32:42.900 --> 32:58.600] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a, there's a mix of things going on there, but it is, uh, it's really glaring to see, um, just his, uh, just his chameleon like behavior, uh, when interacting with people, even if it's, I mean, there's no discerning between lies.
[32:58.600 --> 33:06.380] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, however, he wants to slack a coating of, of, uh, you know, what on it, uh, uh, to, to get through that moment.
[33:06.700 --> 33:07.180] [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[33:07.220 --> 33:11.640] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm glad you brought the book because, um, uh, the book is very relevant to all of this.
[33:11.640 --> 33:13.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's, uh, it's called fear.
[33:13.300 --> 33:14.180] [SPEAKER_11]: Trump in the white house.
[33:14.440 --> 33:15.540] [SPEAKER_11]: Great titles coming out.
[33:15.640 --> 33:16.360] [SPEAKER_11]: It hasn't come out yet.
[33:16.520 --> 33:18.100] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, excerpts were being read yesterday.
[33:18.520 --> 33:21.340] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's, um, uh, due to be released on September 11th.
[33:21.360 --> 33:23.440] [SPEAKER_11]: Whose idea was that September 11th to release a book?
[33:23.580 --> 33:23.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[33:24.140 --> 33:25.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, so that's a week from yesterday.
[33:26.180 --> 33:29.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the book will actually be out, but, uh, think about it.
[33:29.920 --> 33:38.220] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, this statement was released, uh, the day after that book came out where all these, um, um, uh, quotes or, uh, stories were being told.
[33:38.780 --> 33:45.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, um, this person or, or people wrote in to the New York Times, uh, which is a process that takes time.
[33:45.520 --> 33:48.560] [SPEAKER_11]: You can't just write in and expect an editorial to be printed within minutes.
[33:48.820 --> 34:01.900] [SPEAKER_11]: This obviously took time to, um, uh, to organize and, and to, um, uh, prepare whoever this is, is somebody that Bob Woodward talked to and is on the same page quite literally, uh, with what he is saying.
[34:02.000 --> 34:07.700] [SPEAKER_11]: And this, this serves as kind of a backup to what it is that he is claiming is going on inside the Trump White House.
[34:07.840 --> 34:16.740] [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, if, uh, if you want more clues as to who the person is, um, just simply, uh, see how many people, uh, Bob Woodward talked to.
[34:16.860 --> 34:20.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe, uh, maybe the clues are in some of the conversations that he has already revealed.
[34:20.520 --> 34:28.100] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and to build on what Kyle had mentioned with respect to Trump's manipulation tactics, you know, we see this happening already.
[34:28.200 --> 34:48.620] [SPEAKER_05]: What I believe will happen next is that he's going to try to manipulate this, manipulate the Bob Woodward issue, uh, to the extent that he energizes his political base to gin up enough political capital to put pressure on the senior administration officials of the Department of Justice to actually consider this a national security threat.
[34:48.860 --> 35:08.500] [SPEAKER_05]: And then if he is able to do that, what they would do is make an application to, let's say, the FISA court, um, or, uh, any federal district court, if, if they could really make, uh, a great case about this being a national security issue, and perhaps somebody working on the behest of,
[35:08.700 --> 35:17.860] [SPEAKER_05]: uh, a foreign power, they could perhaps obtain a FISA warrant to begin surveilling people within the White House to determine who's communicating with whom.
[35:18.040 --> 35:24.780] [SPEAKER_05]: That could include their personal communications, their personal devices, their home networks, things like, uh, any kind of communications.
[35:25.100 --> 35:49.180] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and then separately, uh, if it were to go to an individual federal court and they could convince a judge that this was a national security issue, they may be able to have a federal judge issue a subpoena to reveal the source, in which point the New York Times would be placed in a position of revealing the name and identity of this particular source to a federal judge or having their reporters
[35:49.180 --> 35:49.940] [SPEAKER_05]: held in contempt.
[35:50.620 --> 35:52.140] [SPEAKER_04]: I, I'm going to push on that.
[35:52.320 --> 35:54.300] [SPEAKER_04]: I, I think that would be plausible.
[35:54.620 --> 35:59.420] [SPEAKER_04]: That's, I would, I'm not going to go down that with you because of the current special counsel.
[35:59.640 --> 36:06.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, they are coordinating, they're coordinating with other indictments and other cases, and I'm curious where you think that might fall in your hypothetical.
[36:07.220 --> 36:10.000] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, what, well, I, I don't necessarily know.
[36:10.200 --> 36:11.760] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's a good question.
[36:12.020 --> 36:16.620] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the special counsel would be rather interested in speaking with this particular anonymous source.
[36:16.980 --> 36:18.140] [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, they may have already.
[36:18.760 --> 36:18.880] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[36:19.180 --> 36:28.060] [SPEAKER_05]: There's nothing stopping anybody from contacting the special counsel and saying, Hey, I have additional information here that this person is violating his, his oath of office.
[36:28.380 --> 36:37.380] [SPEAKER_04]: One other thing, uh, I would not discount those names, uh, uh, that came out with official denials, uh, based on the Bob Woodward statements in that book because they're playing the game.
[36:37.520 --> 36:37.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[36:37.880 --> 36:52.480] [SPEAKER_04]: If, if they, if even I'm now I'm, I'm giving them a lot of credit, assuming one of the, the, uh, like, uh, John Kelly and Mattis, these guys that came out with the sort of classic, I mean, it was like right into the Trump template of like apologies.
[36:53.420 --> 36:55.420] [SPEAKER_04]: There's at least half a dozen of them, right.
[36:55.540 --> 36:57.500] [SPEAKER_04]: That had to come out after this book was released.
[36:57.500 --> 37:01.200] [SPEAKER_04]: And I, I don't want to, again, like guess, because honestly, I don't care.
[37:01.380 --> 37:12.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Like Alex had said, one of those people may be lying, uh, just to continue to perpetuate in, in, uh, this administration, uh, as deeply as they choose.
[37:12.500 --> 37:12.500] Wow.
[37:12.540 --> 37:13.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Trump is hearing this, his head's going to explode.
[37:14.100 --> 37:22.640] [SPEAKER_11]: He, he thought those people were eliminated as suspects, but you're saying that if they deny right away, they might be the guilty ones trying to, uh, clear their names.
[37:22.780 --> 37:24.320] [SPEAKER_04]: They are playing his game.
[37:24.420 --> 37:25.520] [SPEAKER_04]: He set up the rules.
[37:25.700 --> 37:32.260] [SPEAKER_04]: They'll just continue to play it and then be as two faced, but, uh, in the interest of what's right.
[37:32.660 --> 37:42.600] [SPEAKER_10]: And, and just to look a little closely at this from our particular, uh, perspective as hackers, you know, I'm, I'm, uh, you know, heading off all the, uh, tweets of, hey, hacker radio show, how can you spend half an hour talking about Trump?
[37:42.980 --> 37:50.260] [SPEAKER_10]: This is a massive case of social, social engineering and social engineering is a central, uh, I think arm of the whole hacker world.
[37:50.300 --> 37:54.320] [SPEAKER_10]: And we are watching a huge case of a really talented social engineer.
[37:54.520 --> 37:57.340] [SPEAKER_11]: If we call him Facebook president, does that make it more, more relevant to you?
[37:57.760 --> 37:58.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Absolutely.
[37:58.480 --> 38:05.400] [SPEAKER_10]: And, and, uh, we're, we're watching what happens when this is enacted on a national scale and, uh, when it's starting to have little holes poked in it.
[38:05.520 --> 38:08.640] [SPEAKER_10]: And this is just like, in a, in a sense, this is really educational.
[38:08.640 --> 38:12.720] [SPEAKER_10]: Just watching all this fall down like in, and, and, uh, and happened before.
[38:12.900 --> 38:21.000] [SPEAKER_11]: And where else, where else do hackers get a chance to actually put forth some theories that might turn out to be relevant and true, except here.
[38:21.080 --> 38:25.000] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, um, here's our phone number, three, four, seven, three, three, five, zero, eight, one, eight.
[38:25.140 --> 38:30.460] [SPEAKER_11]: If you want to, uh, lend any particular, uh, theories, thoughts, expertise, things like that, uh, uh, our phone lines are wide open.
[38:30.600 --> 38:38.480] [SPEAKER_04]: And honestly, I mean, I respect the, the opinion, but you know, why, why don't you submit what's more relevant?
[38:38.740 --> 38:39.140] [SPEAKER_04]: Please.
[38:39.360 --> 38:42.160] [SPEAKER_04]: We, we ask every week, send us something.
[38:42.320 --> 38:43.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's our email.
[38:43.460 --> 38:44.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's our phone number.
[38:44.700 --> 38:51.380] [SPEAKER_04]: If you have something that is so relevant to hacking and to us and to the world, do tell.
[38:51.560 --> 38:52.320] [SPEAKER_11]: They have to sit down.
[38:52.500 --> 38:53.880] [SPEAKER_11]: They, they will, they will.
[38:54.440 --> 39:00.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and we get lots of things, but, um, you know, right now we think this is very relevant and, uh, uh, spend your time on that.
[39:00.840 --> 39:03.520] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I think people do to give them some credit there.
[39:03.640 --> 39:03.740] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[39:03.840 --> 39:04.460] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we get it.
[39:04.540 --> 39:04.680] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[39:04.800 --> 39:04.880] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[39:05.040 --> 39:05.300] [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[39:05.400 --> 39:21.700] [SPEAKER_05]: But to bring it back to a potentially more relevant point, uh, if we think about the incentives that others have to unmask the identity of this particular person, anybody who would want to curry favor with the president or the administration has a major incentive to try to crack this case as well.
[39:21.900 --> 39:24.580] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm talking specifically about other foreign nations.
[39:24.880 --> 39:32.380] [SPEAKER_05]: Remember it was not beyond Trump during the presidential campaign to make that idiotic statement, Russia, if you're out there, right?
[39:32.380 --> 39:32.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[39:32.760 --> 39:36.660] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I'm half expecting another statement like that at the next Trump rally.
[39:37.000 --> 39:37.800] [SPEAKER_05]: Not that I go to them.
[39:37.840 --> 39:39.800] [SPEAKER_11]: That's tomorrow, 7 PM Billings, Montana.
[39:40.400 --> 39:45.140] [SPEAKER_11]: So our Montanan listeners, please, uh, uh, show up there and let us know what, what, what happens.
[39:45.200 --> 39:56.440] [SPEAKER_05]: But here's a very serious issue about it when it comes to information security in these particular sources, because there are many, many, many other active and very effective intelligence agencies worldwide.
[39:56.800 --> 39:59.460] [SPEAKER_05]: They could be targeting the putative sources here.
[39:59.640 --> 40:05.260] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, they could be targeting them without any lawful restrictions of federal law.
[40:05.400 --> 40:07.840] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't have to abide by the warrant process.
[40:07.980 --> 40:09.680] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't have to abide by the fourth amendment.
[40:09.860 --> 40:14.440] [SPEAKER_05]: They're operating illegally in this country to perform covert operations to begin with.
[40:14.440 --> 40:28.060] [SPEAKER_05]: And that means that nothing is off limits, that this people at the New York times that are working on the story, that the putative sources, that the federal officials in the white house could have any component of their life targeted, their home networks targeted,
[40:28.340 --> 40:33.320] [SPEAKER_05]: their traffic redirected and analyzed, you know, if their routers aren't particularly secure.
[40:33.560 --> 40:43.380] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, this is a wake up call to everybody who's involved in the media and these particular stories and an information security perspective and a hacker perspective, go home, update the firmware on your router.
[40:43.380 --> 40:43.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[40:43.940 --> 40:51.640] [SPEAKER_11]: With the amount of technology that, that, uh, we use every day without the, the proper amount of security, uh, the way we can be compromised is, is simply mind boggling.
[40:51.760 --> 40:52.420] [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, we have a phone call.
[40:52.520 --> 40:52.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[40:52.900 --> 40:53.480] [SPEAKER_11]: You're on off the hook.
[40:53.560 --> 40:53.780] [SPEAKER_11]: Go ahead.
[40:54.340 --> 40:54.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[40:54.720 --> 40:55.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[40:55.480 --> 40:58.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, let me go through first real quickly who I think it's not.
[40:59.320 --> 40:59.560] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[40:59.980 --> 41:01.840] [SPEAKER_11]: Make it quick because there's other people waiting.
[41:02.220 --> 41:02.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Very fast.
[41:03.040 --> 41:03.320] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[41:03.580 --> 41:04.760] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not John Kelly.
[41:04.960 --> 41:05.920] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not Matt Mattis.
[41:06.000 --> 41:07.400] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not anyone in his family.
[41:07.660 --> 41:10.080] [SPEAKER_06]: I doubt it's Mike Pence because Mike Pence knows enough.
[41:10.220 --> 41:11.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Just give him enough rope to hang himself.
[41:11.940 --> 41:12.820] [SPEAKER_06]: He'll do it on his own.
[41:13.020 --> 41:14.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Doesn't have to be my, Mike Pence.
[41:14.900 --> 41:16.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause it's not Sarah Sanders either.
[41:17.140 --> 41:18.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, here's who I think it is.
[41:19.100 --> 41:21.220] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's Don McGahn, the white house lawyer.
[41:21.440 --> 41:21.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Why?
[41:22.140 --> 41:30.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Because it's just a couple of days ago that Trump put out a tweet, not even talking to Don McGahn about, uh, he'll be leaving in the fall.
[41:31.100 --> 41:32.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Took Don McGahn by the surprise.
[41:32.820 --> 41:48.300] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, he knew his days were numbered anyway, but also Don McGahn also had said some time ago, if Trump asked him to fire Jeff Sessions or Rod Rosenstein or any one of those people that, uh, he would resign before he did that.
[41:48.460 --> 41:55.920] [SPEAKER_06]: And once that, once that tweet came out about Don McGahn is leaving in the fall, Don McGahn didn't even know that that was coming.
[41:56.200 --> 42:02.400] [SPEAKER_06]: I bet it's Don McGahn turned around and, and threw his last, his last shot at Trump.
[42:03.000 --> 42:05.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, anyway, that's who I think it is.
[42:05.260 --> 42:14.700] [SPEAKER_06]: He might have other people along with them, but I can't see anybody else in the, in the, in the, in the white house and that West wing who would have done it more than Don McGahn.
[42:14.740 --> 42:14.840] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[42:15.060 --> 42:15.920] [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you.
[42:15.980 --> 42:16.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you for that theory.
[42:17.000 --> 42:18.100] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a, that's an excellent theory.
[42:18.280 --> 42:19.960] [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, I'm going to write that one down.
[42:20.080 --> 42:21.060] [SPEAKER_11]: I think that's, that's a good possibility.
[42:21.340 --> 42:25.120] [SPEAKER_11]: However, uh, you did say, um, uh, it wouldn't be anybody in his family.
[42:25.400 --> 42:27.180] [SPEAKER_11]: That got me thinking, what if it was Jared?
[42:27.480 --> 42:29.620] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it could, it could be, could be his son-in-law.
[42:29.760 --> 42:30.960] [SPEAKER_11]: It could be his daughter, could be Ivanka.
[42:31.060 --> 42:31.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe she's fed up.
[42:32.040 --> 42:32.800] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's possible.
[42:33.160 --> 42:36.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Here's a, here's a line from the editorial that, uh, really got my attention.
[42:37.020 --> 42:43.340] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, the, um, uh, erratic behavior would be more concerning if it weren't for unsung heroes in and around the white house.
[42:43.500 --> 42:53.840] [SPEAKER_11]: Some of his aides have been cast as villains by the media, but in private, they have gone to great lengths to keep bad decisions contained to the West wing, though they are clearly not always successful.
[42:54.380 --> 42:57.440] [SPEAKER_11]: You know, when you say something like that, I'm thinking, Steve Miller?
[42:57.660 --> 42:57.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Really?
[42:58.080 --> 42:58.960] [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, no way.
[42:59.060 --> 43:00.360] [SPEAKER_11]: That guy is just evil incarnate.
[43:00.640 --> 43:01.140] [SPEAKER_11]: There's no way.
[43:01.500 --> 43:13.100] [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, the fact that he's talking about other people, or she's talking about other people, um, uh, doing these things and being cast as villains, again, tells me there is, um, uh, more than one person at work here.
[43:13.240 --> 43:13.940] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a collective.
[43:14.340 --> 43:17.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, um, and, and that's, you know, that's comforting to know that.
[43:17.740 --> 43:22.400] [SPEAKER_11]: And again, the, the, the phrasing of, uh, Americans should know there are adults in the room.
[43:22.540 --> 43:28.400] [SPEAKER_11]: We fully recognize what is happening and we are trying to do what's right even when Donald Trump won't from his own people.
[43:29.300 --> 43:29.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Stunning.
[43:43.080 --> 43:44.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's qualify as a senior.
[43:45.380 --> 43:47.340] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I guess, I guess she's a senior.
[43:47.700 --> 43:50.140] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm sure she hears everything going on.
[43:50.320 --> 43:51.660] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, uh, that's for sure.
[43:51.780 --> 43:51.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[43:52.060 --> 43:53.340] [SPEAKER_11]: And she never looks very happy about it.
[43:53.740 --> 43:55.340] [SPEAKER_11]: Flotus is pretty senior, right?
[43:55.500 --> 43:55.500] Yeah.
[43:55.620 --> 43:55.800] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, definitely.
[43:55.940 --> 43:57.780] [SPEAKER_11]: Or somebody in the Flotus, uh, office.
[43:59.200 --> 43:59.300] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[43:59.460 --> 44:00.480] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, again, that's his family.
[44:00.680 --> 44:02.740] [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, that would be, that would be something.
[44:02.860 --> 44:05.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Can you imagine though his family betraying him?
[44:05.840 --> 44:08.000] [SPEAKER_11]: It would be the end of the rope, I think.
[44:08.340 --> 44:08.620] [SPEAKER_03]: His wife.
[44:09.000 --> 44:09.180] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[44:09.660 --> 44:09.920] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[44:09.980 --> 44:10.160] [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks.
[44:10.260 --> 44:10.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks for that.
[44:11.100 --> 44:18.120] [SPEAKER_05]: I think going against that theory though, is this issue of the Republican ideals that were espoused in the particular article.
[44:18.340 --> 44:27.600] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't necessarily think that Melania would, would mention tax cuts as being something that was, uh, a great accomplishment by this particular administration?
[44:28.280 --> 44:38.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I, I, yeah, I think that that may be a clue there that it's not in that direction, but I could see her being incredibly frustrated with the amount of money he tends to spend on his libido.
[44:38.340 --> 44:42.060] [SPEAKER_04]: She probably wants to see that in her wardrobe or somewhere, you know, that's important.
[44:42.360 --> 44:46.200] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's plenty of other things he could be investing his time and energy into.
[44:46.420 --> 44:54.420] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, let's not discount the theory here that there are probably certain red herrings in that particular article to throw the scent off, so to speak.
[44:54.800 --> 44:55.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Damn.
[44:55.260 --> 44:55.980] [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't think about that.
[44:56.080 --> 44:57.000] [SPEAKER_11]: But yeah, you're probably right.
[44:57.260 --> 44:58.160] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe like Lodestar.
[44:58.900 --> 44:59.180] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[44:59.260 --> 45:01.100] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe that's to frame somebody else.
[45:01.300 --> 45:03.200] [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe, maybe they're doing that because they don't like Pence.
[45:03.420 --> 45:04.480] [SPEAKER_11]: Rob, what's a Lodestar?
[45:05.160 --> 45:06.220] [SPEAKER_11]: I know he used it.
[45:06.320 --> 45:06.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Do any of us know?
[45:07.020 --> 45:07.360] [SPEAKER_10]: What is it?
[45:07.480 --> 45:09.540] [SPEAKER_10]: I think I have one at home on a shelf somewhere.
[45:09.660 --> 45:10.320] [SPEAKER_10]: You don't know either.
[45:10.440 --> 45:10.480] [SPEAKER_10]: I'll look it up.
[45:10.880 --> 45:11.480] [SPEAKER_10]: You look it up.
[45:11.660 --> 45:12.600] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll keep myself busy.
[45:12.700 --> 45:14.020] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll just, I'll just hush up over here.
[45:14.060 --> 45:15.120] [SPEAKER_11]: Let me give the phone number again.
[45:15.240 --> 45:17.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Three, four, seven, three, three, five, zero, eight, one, eight.
[45:17.120 --> 45:17.800] [SPEAKER_11]: There is other news.
[45:17.920 --> 45:35.200] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, there's, there's a very disturbing story coming out of Norway, where someone who gave a talk at a HOPE conference and is known in the hacker world, Arjen Camfries, I'm probably mispronouncing that, 47-year-old Dutch privacy expert, cybersecurity expert,
[45:35.340 --> 45:37.340] [SPEAKER_11]: he's gone missing, gone missing in Norway.
[45:37.540 --> 45:39.060] [SPEAKER_11]: This happened actually on August 20th.
[45:39.940 --> 45:42.980] [SPEAKER_11]: He was visiting the small city of Bodo.
[45:43.120 --> 45:43.780] [SPEAKER_11]: I've been to Bodo.
[45:43.900 --> 45:45.640] [SPEAKER_11]: I've been to Bodo a number of times, actually.
[45:46.460 --> 45:50.140] [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's kind of like, um, well, I mean, there's a lot going on there.
[45:50.200 --> 45:51.060] [SPEAKER_11]: There's an airport there.
[45:51.180 --> 45:55.940] [SPEAKER_11]: You can, you can, uh, use it as kind of a transfer point if you're going further north or if you're heading over to Sweden.
[45:56.260 --> 46:04.120] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but, um, he was, uh, he was leaving that particular place, uh, and getting on a, um, a long train ride down to Trondheim.
[46:04.480 --> 46:06.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, uh, that is the last anyone has heard of him.
[46:07.060 --> 46:13.180] [SPEAKER_11]: Now, this is somebody who, um, uh, is described as a cybersecurity expert, also a senior associate of WikiLeaks.
[46:13.520 --> 46:17.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and the story is getting, uh, quite a lot of attention for that along, which I guess is a good thing.
[46:17.800 --> 46:23.320] [SPEAKER_11]: But unfortunately, uh, whenever there's a WikiLeaks story, it just turns into just about Julian Assange.
[46:23.420 --> 46:30.100] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, if you see, um, stories about this guy being missing, you see Julian's picture and not his, which makes no sense whatsoever.
[46:30.460 --> 46:38.480] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we need to focus on this guy, uh, and, uh, make sure that he has found that he is safe and, uh, nothing, nothing bad has happened to him.
[46:38.600 --> 46:43.340] [SPEAKER_11]: There's all kinds of suspicions, uh, because, um, well, this is the kind of thing we're talking about.
[46:43.340 --> 46:55.000] [SPEAKER_11]: People who know how things work, people who reveal information, people who know how to do that securely, they can be threats, they can be people who, um, are, are of great interest to others.
[46:55.700 --> 47:07.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, anyway, um, the, um, um, it's basically all over the, uh, uh, the Internet, but I'll, I'll spell out his name in case people, uh, would prefer to look it up themselves.
[47:07.060 --> 47:12.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, R-J-N, A-R-J-E-N, and his last name, Kamphus, K-A-M-P-H-U-I-S.
[47:13.140 --> 47:22.500] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and, um, he, uh, wrote a book called Information Security for Journalists, uh, which offers advice on investigative reporters working on national security and intelligence matters.
[47:22.600 --> 47:30.140] [SPEAKER_11]: You see, this all ties together, uh, in, in a really, um, really interesting, but also, uh, scary way sometimes.
[47:30.500 --> 47:40.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, now he has Dutch citizenship and, um, uh, he, he likes to travel, but, uh, the fact that he's disappeared and has not made any of his appointments in the last week or two is very, very disturbing.
[47:41.160 --> 47:45.160] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, so, uh, we are keeping a close eye on that particular story as well.
[47:45.880 --> 47:49.520] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and, uh, again, our front number is 347-335-0-8188.
[47:49.540 --> 47:51.280] [SPEAKER_11]: I know we had a couple of calls come in and they timed out.
[47:51.420 --> 47:54.200] [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, if, if you got timed out on, please call back.
[47:54.200 --> 47:55.140] [SPEAKER_11]: We have a couple of minutes left.
[47:55.780 --> 48:00.800] [SPEAKER_05]: I, I hadn't realized that he wrote that compendium on Information Security for Journalists.
[48:00.880 --> 48:01.000] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[48:01.000 --> 48:02.480] [SPEAKER_05]: Until you mentioned it right now.
[48:03.000 --> 48:08.160] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, that, that's something, you know, we consult with a lot of journalists and actually that's something that we've pushed out to them many times.
[48:08.260 --> 48:10.400] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't realize it was the, the same person.
[48:10.800 --> 48:12.280] [SPEAKER_11]: There's a number of his talks online.
[48:12.460 --> 48:15.040] [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, uh, the talk that he gave at The Last Hope, that's online.
[48:15.240 --> 48:17.020] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, there's a TED talk he gave more recently.
[48:17.720 --> 48:20.460] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and, uh, by the last hope, I don't mean the most recent one.
[48:20.480 --> 48:21.800] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean the one in 2008, by the way.
[48:22.300 --> 48:24.740] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, so hopefully, uh, hopefully he turns up.
[48:24.860 --> 48:28.360] [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully he's just out exploring somewhere, doing something without telling anybody.
[48:28.600 --> 48:30.620] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's, and the thing is, he knows how to go off the grid.
[48:30.920 --> 48:38.980] [SPEAKER_11]: And, and that's what a true hacker knows how to do, is to turn off the phone, to not connect, to, uh, you know, to not be, uh, not be found if you don't want to be found.
[48:39.060 --> 48:40.320] [SPEAKER_11]: And let's hope it's something like that.
[48:40.640 --> 48:41.500] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take another phone call.
[48:41.560 --> 48:41.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[48:41.940 --> 48:42.460] [SPEAKER_11]: You're on Off The Hook.
[48:43.180 --> 48:43.800] [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, how you doing, sir?
[48:43.980 --> 48:44.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[48:45.500 --> 48:45.820] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[48:46.400 --> 48:50.280] [SPEAKER_09]: No, I was saying I give those guys a lot of, um, their Cavs and I got a lot of credit, man.
[48:50.400 --> 48:55.280] [SPEAKER_09]: It's to sit there and endure questions like that for like five or six hours, man.
[48:55.300 --> 48:58.060] [SPEAKER_09]: I know with me, I have a headache at the end of the day.
[48:58.060 --> 49:00.140] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you're talking about the, uh, about Cavanaugh.
[49:00.720 --> 49:01.340] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, man.
[49:01.480 --> 49:06.060] [SPEAKER_09]: How did they sit there and, and endure like, you know, those questions, man, for so long?
[49:06.320 --> 49:10.060] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it's like the guy didn't take a drinking, uh, he didn't take like a water break or something?
[49:10.120 --> 49:13.660] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I think, I think you took a number of breaks, but, uh, yeah, it, it takes patience.
[49:13.800 --> 49:24.800] [SPEAKER_11]: But when you realize you're, you're on at least two C-spans at once and, uh, a nation, you know, watching and, and, uh, audience of millions, uh, I, I guess you behave yourself at least, uh, you know, for a little while.
[49:25.820 --> 49:26.280] [SPEAKER_09]: Good night.
[49:26.620 --> 49:28.000] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, thank you, thank you for that.
[49:28.320 --> 49:30.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I thought he was going to say something else, but go ahead.
[49:31.200 --> 49:34.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, you can really hand it to Cavanaugh if you want, but just don't try and shake his hand.
[49:34.800 --> 49:35.700] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh God, yeah.
[49:36.020 --> 49:36.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the Gutenberg thing.
[49:37.260 --> 49:40.000] [SPEAKER_11]: That was, uh, we talked about that on, on yesterday's show as well.
[49:40.620 --> 49:49.360] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, the, um, the, the parent of one of the, uh, murdered children in, in Parkland, uh, tried to shake his hand and he just looked at him with contempt and turned away.
[49:49.620 --> 49:56.740] [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, I understand he was given a second chance to do that and refused that this is, this guy is scum.
[49:56.940 --> 49:57.040] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[49:57.080 --> 49:57.460] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sorry.
[49:57.560 --> 50:01.980] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't mean to be so, so, uh, uh, crude, but, uh, there is no other word for it.
[50:02.040 --> 50:02.140] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[50:02.220 --> 50:05.440] [SPEAKER_11]: That a potential Supreme Court justice, I see as scum.
[50:05.860 --> 50:11.060] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, to the caller's point, you know, this is exactly what the federal judiciary is trained to do.
[50:11.240 --> 50:27.020] [SPEAKER_05]: If you think about what they endure on a daily basis at the trial level, not necessarily at the appeals level, they sit through some of the most boring nonsense you could ever imagine on a daily basis that having an interactive day like this is probably seen as a nice respite.
[50:27.300 --> 50:40.180] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, could you imagine sitting through a two week long trial, you know, that has to deal with insurance coverage under one particular clause or under an error or omissions policy and, and what is the definition of an occurrence and things like that?
[50:40.240 --> 50:44.940] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, these are the cases that have shaped the legal system in the United States and they're so incredibly boring.
[50:44.940 --> 50:49.460] [SPEAKER_05]: But when you have suffered through enough of these and enough depositions...
[50:50.200 --> 50:50.560] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[50:51.160 --> 50:51.400] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[50:51.660 --> 50:52.100] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll shut up.
[50:52.220 --> 50:52.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take another phone call.
[50:53.000 --> 50:53.260] [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[50:53.340 --> 50:53.820] [SPEAKER_11]: You're on the radio.
[50:55.300 --> 50:55.580] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello?
[50:55.780 --> 50:55.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Hi.
[50:56.080 --> 50:56.620] [SPEAKER_11]: What's on your mind?
[50:57.560 --> 51:01.060] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I just wanted to make a prediction of who I think the, uh, the leak would likely be.
[51:01.180 --> 51:01.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[51:01.440 --> 51:01.780] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's hear it.
[51:01.900 --> 51:02.500] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, from... Yeah.
[51:02.760 --> 51:05.640] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I've, uh, I've worked actually around a lot of people around the White House.
[51:05.740 --> 51:14.460] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's likely going to be one of the people in the, either the executive support staff that work either, uh, with this communications department that have access to all those records or are likely secret service agents.
[51:14.460 --> 51:18.200] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, would they be defined as a member of his senior staff?
[51:19.240 --> 51:23.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, anyone that's a 14 or a 15 or above is considered senior government.
[51:24.360 --> 51:24.760] [SPEAKER_11]: 14?
[51:24.920 --> 51:26.060] [SPEAKER_11]: You want to describe what that means?
[51:26.200 --> 51:26.720] [SPEAKER_11]: 14 or 15?
[51:26.960 --> 51:27.520] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, GS.
[51:27.700 --> 51:27.880] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[51:27.960 --> 51:30.480] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like a GS, like a general service scale, GS scale.
[51:30.640 --> 51:30.820] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[51:30.900 --> 51:36.740] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you have like the equivalent of Lieutenant Colonel of the army or our commander in the Navy.
[51:36.980 --> 51:37.380] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[51:37.420 --> 51:39.940] [SPEAKER_02]: That's when you're considered, you're considered a senior official.
[51:41.120 --> 51:43.620] [SPEAKER_05]: I got a question for you, uh, caller.
[51:44.040 --> 51:50.400] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that this would be somebody in the civil service as opposed to somebody in active duty military service?
[51:51.100 --> 51:53.200] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's likely someone in the civil service.
[51:53.400 --> 51:54.320] [SPEAKER_05]: Why do you say that?
[51:55.240 --> 52:04.300] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, because if you are, if you're in the military, you're going to fall under, you're falling under the UC, you fall under the penalty of the UCMJ because you're not, you're questioning or criticizing your commander in chief.
[52:04.440 --> 52:05.160] [SPEAKER_11]: If you get caught.
[52:09.980 --> 52:10.640] [SPEAKER_11]: I think.
[52:10.840 --> 52:11.180] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[52:11.340 --> 52:13.320] [SPEAKER_11]: I think the caller's absolutely right about that.
[52:13.440 --> 52:13.580] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[52:14.520 --> 52:15.820] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, any other, any other theories?
[52:17.060 --> 52:19.540] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that's what, that's the only way I'm going with right now.
[52:19.860 --> 52:20.300] [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[52:20.360 --> 52:23.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, thanks so much for calling us and for, for lending your expertise on this.
[52:23.880 --> 52:24.320] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[52:24.500 --> 52:24.780] [SPEAKER_11]: Take care.
[52:25.840 --> 52:26.000] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[52:26.160 --> 52:28.820] [SPEAKER_11]: I love getting calls from people that know what they're talking about.
[52:28.940 --> 52:30.900] [SPEAKER_11]: And we learned so much from that alone.
[52:31.380 --> 52:41.580] [SPEAKER_05]: He made a great point that this could be somebody in the secret service that has access to the president that sees the, the daily happenings, you know, this, this jibes with everything that we've been saying as well.
[52:41.880 --> 52:42.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[52:42.140 --> 52:43.960] [SPEAKER_11]: We've improved my opinion of the secret service quite a bit.
[52:44.040 --> 52:44.520] [SPEAKER_10]: I'll tell you that.
[52:45.020 --> 52:46.120] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, we don't have much time left.
[52:46.140 --> 52:49.540] [SPEAKER_10]: So I wanted to quickly mention this story out of Australia because it's a very time sensitive.
[52:50.020 --> 52:50.380] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[52:50.720 --> 52:52.080] [SPEAKER_10]: Do you have that recording that you made?
[52:52.200 --> 52:58.220] [SPEAKER_10]: I have it on a drive somewhere, but, uh, um, but, um, I can, I can point you toward what we're talking about.
[52:58.560 --> 53:10.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, if you're an Australian, uh, your government is considering the assistance and access bill 2018, and you only have until this Monday, the 10th of September to, uh, to, um, comment on it.
[53:11.160 --> 53:19.280] [SPEAKER_10]: So if you go to digital rights, watch.au, um, that's a digital rights, watch.au and scroll down to the link that says defend encryption.
[53:19.700 --> 53:25.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, you will get all the information on what the bill is, what it means and how you can organize against it.
[53:25.240 --> 53:28.860] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, because it's, uh, it's actually very frightening when you look into it.
[53:29.000 --> 53:39.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Basically it's a, it's another attempt to get, um, device manufacturers, coders, uh, technology, um, technology, the technology world, basically to build back doors so the government can, uh, can crack open encryption.
[53:40.000 --> 53:43.860] [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, that's, as we've said on this program, very, very dangerous indeed.
[53:44.600 --> 53:47.940] [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, digital rights, watch.org.au.
[53:48.300 --> 53:49.080] [SPEAKER_10]: It's an Australian domain.
[53:49.360 --> 53:51.720] [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, it seems like they never, they never stop with these things.
[53:52.500 --> 53:53.560] [SPEAKER_10]: It never stops.
[53:53.700 --> 54:02.340] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, there's a big thing going on with basically the five eyes countries, which is, uh, the United States, uh, Canada, the UK, Australia, and I think New Zealand.
[54:02.340 --> 54:12.180] [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, basically getting together and, uh, super, being super cooperative with one another, um, based on, um, what they, what they want to do and how they want to share information on people.
[54:12.340 --> 54:16.680] [SPEAKER_11]: So now we, um, uh, we found the file, uh, that you, that you made.
[54:16.780 --> 54:19.500] [SPEAKER_11]: Now maybe you could tell us something about this before it starts playing.
[54:19.820 --> 54:25.020] [SPEAKER_10]: Um, this is a, uh, it's a video made by the juice media who've also made rap news, which we featured on this program.
[54:25.420 --> 54:27.900] [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it's basically a satirical government ad.
[54:28.000 --> 54:29.200] [SPEAKER_10]: It's called an honest government ad.
[54:29.200 --> 54:32.140] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is not safe for radio, but you fixed it.
[54:32.180 --> 54:33.120] [SPEAKER_11]: So it is safe for radio.
[54:33.320 --> 54:33.460] [SPEAKER_11]: I did.
[54:33.660 --> 54:33.920] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[54:34.140 --> 54:35.160] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, let's, let's, let's hear this.
[54:35.560 --> 54:35.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[54:36.080 --> 54:37.480] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm from the Australian government.
[54:37.720 --> 54:39.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have something to hide?
[54:39.640 --> 54:40.500] [SPEAKER_01]: Nah, just kidding.
[54:40.640 --> 54:42.240] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not some fascist regime.
[54:43.040 --> 54:44.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Seriously though, do you?
[54:44.540 --> 54:48.240] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, encryption makes it hard for us to spy on you these days.
[54:48.240 --> 54:53.180] [SPEAKER_01]: So just to make sure, we're introducing yet another law to expand the surveillance state.
[54:53.580 --> 54:57.540] [SPEAKER_01]: Introducing the Assistance and Access Bill, or ASACCESS for short.
[54:57.540 --> 54:58.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, relax.
[54:58.580 --> 55:02.240] [SPEAKER_01]: Despite how it sounds, we're not trying to access your data through your back door.
[55:02.400 --> 55:04.340] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just after the keys to your front door.
[55:04.500 --> 55:04.700] [SPEAKER_01]: Yup.
[55:05.080 --> 55:08.200] [SPEAKER_01]: ASACCESS will force tech companies to do our dirty work for us.
[55:08.320 --> 55:16.040] [SPEAKER_01]: For example, by making them insert a little secret sauce in their app, which lets us access your device once you download the latest update.
[55:16.140 --> 55:18.620] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they refuse, we'll find the shit out of them.
[55:19.040 --> 55:19.480] [SPEAKER_01]: ASACCESS.
[55:19.580 --> 55:22.620] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't break encryption, only your trust in your favourite apps.
[55:22.620 --> 55:30.720] [SPEAKER_01]: To bring you arse access, we've taken the UK's fascist spying law and made it even more fascist by removing any need for judicial oversight.
[55:30.920 --> 55:35.540] [SPEAKER_01]: But don't worry, we promise to only spy on you if reasonable and proportionate.
[55:35.620 --> 55:37.000] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know you can trust us.
[55:37.100 --> 55:40.280] [SPEAKER_01]: We're the same b****s who doxxed a welfare recipient for criticising us.
[55:40.340 --> 55:43.240] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are prosecuting a whistleblower for exposing our misconduct.
[55:43.300 --> 55:46.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Who throw kids in concentration camps for seeking asylum.
[55:46.420 --> 55:48.460] [SPEAKER_01]: And prosecute the journalists who report on them.
[55:48.560 --> 55:52.160] [SPEAKER_01]: And who gave half a billion of your tax dollars to a foundation full of our friends.
[55:52.620 --> 55:55.620] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course you can count on us to be reasonable and proportionate.
[55:55.720 --> 55:57.820] [SPEAKER_01]: And if we're not, well, you'll never hear about it.
[55:57.840 --> 56:03.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we've also introduced a ten year jail sentence for any Snowden wannabes who disclose our abuse of arse access.
[56:03.660 --> 56:04.380] [SPEAKER_01]: Arse access.
[56:04.580 --> 56:06.000] [SPEAKER_01]: Brought to you by Australia.
[56:06.160 --> 56:08.840] [SPEAKER_01]: Where the laws of f**** heads can't trump the laws of math.
[56:08.960 --> 56:10.740] [SPEAKER_01]: But they can trample human rights.
[56:10.900 --> 56:13.940] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is why to test this f******, we chose Australia.
[56:14.100 --> 56:17.620] [SPEAKER_01]: The weakest of the Five Eyes Alliance, thanks to our lack of a Bill of Rights.
[56:17.780 --> 56:20.760] [SPEAKER_01]: So international data requests will now be funnelled through us.
[56:20.760 --> 56:23.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Compromising not just Aussies, but all of you f****** too.
[56:24.160 --> 56:24.980] [SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome.
[56:25.220 --> 56:27.580] [SPEAKER_01]: We'd love to know what you think of arse access.
[56:27.800 --> 56:34.340] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've set up a public submission system where for a limited time, you can protest our next step towards a f****** up dystopia.
[56:34.540 --> 56:35.500] [SPEAKER_01]: Australian government.
[56:35.780 --> 56:37.640] [SPEAKER_01]: Relax, we're not after your f****** picks.
[56:37.800 --> 56:39.540] [SPEAKER_01]: Just the last shreds of your civil liberties.
[56:41.960 --> 56:43.720] [SPEAKER_11]: Authorised by the Department of Home or Pairs.
[56:43.940 --> 56:44.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, that's brilliant.
[56:45.200 --> 56:47.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, Rob, for putting that together, arse access.
[56:47.060 --> 56:47.800] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, great.
[56:49.740 --> 56:51.540] [SPEAKER_11]: That's going to be our show for tonight.
[56:51.540 --> 56:53.560] [SPEAKER_11]: We are pretty much out of time.
[56:54.400 --> 56:56.740] [SPEAKER_11]: But we have this one important announcement.
[56:57.000 --> 56:59.400] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, 2600 meetings happen all over the world this week.
[56:59.900 --> 57:01.720] [SPEAKER_10]: 2600.com/meetings.
[57:01.940 --> 57:03.160] [SPEAKER_10]: Find your own or start it.
[57:03.400 --> 57:06.180] [SPEAKER_11]: And hope videos are out from the Circle of Hope.
[57:06.280 --> 57:10.200] [SPEAKER_11]: You can go to hope.net or 2600.com to see how you can get your copies.
[57:10.620 --> 57:13.280] [SPEAKER_11]: Write to us, oth@2600.com.
[57:13.280 --> 57:14.860] [SPEAKER_11]: We will read your emails.
[57:15.480 --> 57:20.380] [SPEAKER_11]: If you have something secure to drop to us, go to our Secure Drop page, 2600.com/securedrop.
[57:20.780 --> 57:21.860] [SPEAKER_11]: We'll see you next week.
[57:21.940 --> 57:24.100] [SPEAKER_11]: And by then, who knows what state the country will be in.