Off The Hook - 2018-12-05

[00:00.000 --> 00:03.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: ...Sunday, December 9th, from 3 to 4.30 p.m.
[00:03.600 --> 00:08.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: For tickets only $20 each, go to WBAI.org.
[00:08.700 --> 00:10.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Tell them, cycle, cycle.
[00:13.990 --> 00:16.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, it's currently 8 o'clock.
[00:16.750 --> 00:19.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:20.570 --> 00:22.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's time now for Off The Hook.
[00:23.450 --> 00:24.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: What was that?
[00:27.680 --> 00:32.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:33.220 --> 00:35.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:35.680 --> 00:37.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now I can't make a cough.
[00:38.420 --> 00:40.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: We couldn't get much worse.
[00:43.240 --> 00:45.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Fun diddly bump, but the best is back the worst.
[00:46.640 --> 00:48.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hope that's understood.
[00:48.720 --> 00:49.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Fun diddly bump!
[02:12.500 --> 02:14.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:14.120 --> 02:14.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:14.960 --> 02:17.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:17.440 --> 02:18.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:18.920 --> 02:19.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[02:20.540 --> 02:24.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: And everybody else has got fundraiser illness, I think.
[02:25.580 --> 02:26.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: No one's here.
[02:26.760 --> 02:27.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Where is everyone?
[02:28.020 --> 02:28.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: My goodness.
[02:30.200 --> 02:31.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a fundraiser, folks.
[02:32.280 --> 02:33.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing to be afraid of here.
[02:34.600 --> 02:41.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but, you know, if you call in, call in and pledge, you'll make the pain a lot better for us.
[02:41.560 --> 02:43.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll feel good, too.
[02:44.060 --> 02:46.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: 516-620-3602 is our telephone number.
[02:47.680 --> 02:50.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah, we would love to hear from you.
[02:50.260 --> 02:52.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: We were just listening to a radio show, actually, from a few years ago.
[02:52.900 --> 02:54.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: About 10 years ago.
[02:54.360 --> 02:56.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we made a deal with listeners.
[02:56.320 --> 03:02.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: We said, you know, we're not going to spend the entire hour asking for money if people call in in the first 10 minutes.
[03:02.420 --> 03:04.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And pledge.
[03:04.600 --> 03:07.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: And our goal was $1,000 in the first 10 minutes.
[03:09.000 --> 03:10.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know what?
[03:10.140 --> 03:11.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: We made that goal.
[03:11.320 --> 03:13.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: And not only did we make that goal, we made double that goal.
[03:14.220 --> 03:14.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[03:14.860 --> 03:17.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: That was back in the days when we had a room full of volunteers.
[03:17.480 --> 03:19.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we could see the phone ringing.
[03:19.980 --> 03:26.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we could see, you know, that tally number changing because of the little camera on the calculator that we had down the hallway.
[03:26.860 --> 03:28.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have that now.
[03:28.580 --> 03:29.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe someday we'll get it back.
[03:29.840 --> 03:33.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're building out studios and expanding the place.
[03:33.080 --> 03:38.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hoping we come back to those days where, you know, we could stroll down the hall and, you know, see who's there.
[03:39.380 --> 03:41.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we still have the radio station.
[03:41.820 --> 03:43.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: We still have the phone number.
[03:43.620 --> 03:47.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we still have all kinds of things that you can pledge for.
[03:47.640 --> 03:47.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's one.
[03:48.060 --> 03:49.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's something you can pledge for.
[03:49.440 --> 03:55.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have the Hacker Digest Lifetime Subscription, which normally goes for $260.
[03:55.780 --> 03:59.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are offering it tonight for a contribution of $100.
[04:00.800 --> 04:01.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[04:01.320 --> 04:03.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: Call it holiday insanity, whatever.
[04:03.480 --> 04:13.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: But what you get for that, you get every single edition, every single issue of 2600 Magazine that has ever come out and will ever come out in digital form.
[04:13.620 --> 04:17.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: You get them in the form of an annual digest.
[04:17.640 --> 04:23.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: So basically every year is wrapped up into a single digest, starting in 1984.
[04:24.520 --> 04:25.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[04:25.240 --> 04:30.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: And these are many, many issues that are no longer in print, no longer in existence.
[04:30.560 --> 04:32.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't get them anywhere except this way.
[04:32.980 --> 04:38.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: You will go back to the early years of the Hacker Quarterly.
[04:39.280 --> 04:40.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it wasn't even the Hacker Quarterly then.
[04:40.680 --> 04:41.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a monthly publication.
[04:41.920 --> 04:49.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was, we printed an 8.5 by 11 sheets of paper and Xeroxed it after hours in an office that we really shouldn't have been in in the first place.
[04:50.120 --> 04:54.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that is how we got the newsletter out to people back in the 80s.
[04:55.240 --> 05:00.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we went quarterly and wound up on newsstands.
[05:01.220 --> 05:02.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: And have continued to this day.
[05:03.380 --> 05:10.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you call 516-620-3602 and say, I would like the Hacker Digest lifetime subscription for a pledge of $100.
[05:12.440 --> 05:20.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: The nice volunteer on the other end of the phone will take your name and info and you will start receiving this via email.
[05:21.080 --> 05:26.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll receive links, you'll receive attachments, and you'll be able to read every single issue from the past.
[05:26.600 --> 05:28.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: All the ones that we've digitized so far.
[05:28.220 --> 05:30.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're almost completely done digitizing.
[05:30.520 --> 05:31.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's three left.
[05:31.700 --> 05:32.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's only...
[05:32.340 --> 05:32.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[05:32.600 --> 05:34.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: We just released volume 21.
[05:35.360 --> 05:35.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[05:35.720 --> 05:40.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: So 1 through 21 have all been scanned and they come in PDF format.
[05:40.960 --> 05:42.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're completely non-DRM.
[05:42.920 --> 05:43.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can copy them.
[05:44.460 --> 05:50.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we also have volumes 25 to I believe 34 was the most recent one.
[05:50.700 --> 05:52.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's only a gap of three left.
[05:52.800 --> 05:54.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they get released every three months.
[05:54.580 --> 05:56.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: So the next one will get released in February.
[05:56.820 --> 05:58.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's only two more after that.
[05:58.520 --> 05:59.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have everything.
[05:59.800 --> 06:02.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: And once a year you'll get the latest years.
[06:03.060 --> 06:04.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: So you won't miss anything.
[06:04.880 --> 06:05.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: You won't miss anything.
[06:06.180 --> 06:07.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's only being offered now.
[06:08.040 --> 06:08.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's only being offered tonight.
[06:08.940 --> 06:09.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: We only have a few of those.
[06:09.980 --> 06:14.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if we see, you know, a few calls come in and we see it electronically now.
[06:14.240 --> 06:16.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't see it through a little camera down the hallway.
[06:17.080 --> 06:18.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we do see it.
[06:18.360 --> 06:22.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: It might take a little bit more time because this is the digital age and things take longer.
[06:23.420 --> 06:24.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we will see it.
[06:24.940 --> 06:28.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it may not be $2,000 in the first 10 minutes.
[06:28.820 --> 06:31.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: But at least a few hundred would be very nice.
[06:31.460 --> 06:34.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: So call 516-620-3602.
[06:34.220 --> 06:35.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge for the Hacker Digest.
[06:35.300 --> 06:35.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: Lifetime subscription.
[06:36.220 --> 06:36.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Pledge of $100.
[06:37.920 --> 06:39.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: Less than half what it normally costs.
[06:40.260 --> 06:42.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: And believe me, people go for this.
[06:42.280 --> 06:45.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: People really want those digital copies.
[06:45.460 --> 06:46.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: They are relevant.
[06:46.460 --> 06:50.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you read something in the 1980s, you would think it would be outdated.
[06:50.600 --> 06:52.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, the technology is different for sure.
[06:52.820 --> 06:54.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: But not the thought behind it.
[06:54.720 --> 06:55.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: Not the theory behind it.
[06:55.740 --> 07:00.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: There is so much you can learn by simply delving into the past.
[07:00.840 --> 07:02.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we do that with film.
[07:02.180 --> 07:07.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: We look at early films and we see things that are happening again now.
[07:07.120 --> 07:08.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: We learn from our mistakes.
[07:08.760 --> 07:10.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: We see what people have done.
[07:10.980 --> 07:12.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we apply that to the present day.
[07:13.100 --> 07:30.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: We see different examples even just in that area with film of how people dealt with situations that we don't necessarily know in our collective memory just how outspoken people were at different periods in time or how outspoken the film industry proper was at,
[07:30.640 --> 07:37.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: you know, building up or after World War I or wherever you are in American and global history.
[07:38.360 --> 07:44.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's surprising to see what you maybe forgot or what kind of goes unnoticed through time.
[07:45.040 --> 07:50.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: But upon looking at it out of context, it really has a deeper meaning.
[07:50.560 --> 07:57.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Two things I wanted to remind people is that the Digests themselves have all sorts of additional content.
[07:57.100 --> 07:59.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think you might have mentioned that, but I wanted to reemphasize it.
[07:59.560 --> 08:00.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: I did not mention that.
[08:00.720 --> 08:01.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: There is explanations.
[08:01.880 --> 08:16.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you've ever wondered why is a certain message in a certain cover or on a certain page, there's some small thing or the whole thing had something off or different about it, that's explained.
[08:16.100 --> 08:18.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you get that in the Digest package.
[08:19.080 --> 08:26.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: So a lot of explanation, a lot of thought goes into figuring out what was going on then.
[08:26.240 --> 08:32.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: What were the secret messages or the inside jokes of the era and what did it mean?
[08:32.840 --> 08:34.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: How did that come about?
[08:34.400 --> 08:41.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's fascinating to see what we were up to back then and try to figure out some of those puzzles.
[08:42.100 --> 08:48.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we basically organize all of that for you, the reader, so that you can follow along.
[08:48.820 --> 09:02.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can see the original publication in its printed form and then go back and follow along and look for some of those little Easter eggs and features that were a part of the conversation at the time.
[09:03.100 --> 09:08.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: And lastly, the donations you make to the station are a tax-deductible donation.
[09:08.160 --> 09:11.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I know a lot of people are thinking about the holidays this time of year.
[09:11.640 --> 09:17.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: And yeah, that's something you can do if you're planning your gifts for the new year.
[09:17.140 --> 09:22.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you might forget that that contribution itself is tax-deductible.
[09:23.000 --> 09:23.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[09:23.660 --> 09:28.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you and I have been very involved in this project over the last few years.
[09:28.140 --> 09:31.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what do you say about the extra content?
[09:31.720 --> 09:42.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: It does ring true because we learn so much just by going back and looking at our own material and asking around, saying, why did we put this particular image on the cover?
[09:42.840 --> 09:44.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Did it mean something in particular?
[09:44.740 --> 09:46.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what's this?
[09:46.440 --> 09:47.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is this something hidden in the background?
[09:48.300 --> 09:50.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is this something printed in ultraviolet ink?
[09:51.180 --> 09:53.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Why is there a secret word on this particular page?
[09:53.660 --> 09:54.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of fun to go back.
[09:55.040 --> 09:57.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what we do is it's very archaeological.
[09:57.920 --> 10:09.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: We go back and once we have a record of emails and alternate versions and debates on various things that we're doing, we start to piece it together again.
[10:09.740 --> 10:12.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we say, oh, that's what we were shooting for here.
[10:12.860 --> 10:18.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what that particular concept meant and how it ties into the next cover.
[10:18.580 --> 10:29.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: So every digest and every digest that we have printed out, that we have put together, has more explanations as to what it's all about.
[10:29.120 --> 10:39.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes as many as eight pages of just explanations as to what was happening at that particular point in time in history and technology and what we were up to, the challenges we were facing.
[10:39.940 --> 10:41.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's never a dull moment.
[10:41.580 --> 10:48.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the equivalent of a huge book that just gives you all kinds of insight.
[10:48.720 --> 11:02.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And not just that, but the articles that are written by all kinds of hackers all throughout the planet about various emerging technologies, old technologies, future technologies, ideas for things.
[11:02.120 --> 11:08.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: People have been readers of 2600 and gone on to do amazing things with the technology.
[11:08.740 --> 11:12.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: Many people come back and say, hey, I was inspired by the magazine to do this and that.
[11:13.220 --> 11:16.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: And many times that's something really awesome and cool.
[11:17.060 --> 11:19.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can take that journey as well.
[11:19.400 --> 11:21.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you can share that journey with other people.
[11:21.380 --> 11:23.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: The PDFs are meant to be copied.
[11:23.160 --> 11:23.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're meant to be shared.
[11:24.440 --> 11:31.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And unlike the actual paper issues, if you're lucky enough to have those, yes, those are collector's items as well, but they're not as easily shared.
[11:31.160 --> 11:34.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, they do age after a while.
[11:34.480 --> 11:35.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is something that will last.
[11:36.020 --> 11:41.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's yours for a pledge of $100, 516-620-3602.
[11:41.540 --> 11:42.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's our phone number.
[11:42.500 --> 11:43.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're offering tonight.
[11:43.900 --> 11:49.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it would be something really cool in the holiday season to receive.
[11:49.980 --> 11:51.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, you'll get it via email.
[11:51.620 --> 11:56.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll get every single digest from the past and into the future.
[11:56.580 --> 11:58.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lifetime subscription to that.
[11:58.960 --> 12:00.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we're offering.
[12:00.300 --> 12:02.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: 516-620-3602.
[12:02.440 --> 12:04.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please spread the word.
[12:04.000 --> 12:07.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you know somebody else that might be interested in this, I don't know if we'll have this next week.
[12:08.440 --> 12:10.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not likely because I know we had a limited number.
[12:10.540 --> 12:12.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: I know we've given this away in the past.
[12:12.560 --> 12:16.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if we gave it away for this lower price, but it's not the normal price.
[12:16.580 --> 12:20.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's well below what it normally goes for.
[12:20.600 --> 12:21.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it does go for that.
[12:21.640 --> 12:25.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: As we've said in the past, it's not really about the premium itself.
[12:25.560 --> 12:37.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's our thank you, our contribution to you and to the station in acknowledgement of the giving and the contributions of our audience.
[12:37.500 --> 12:49.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that in and of itself is what's most important, is supporting this community radio project and supporting off the hook.
[12:49.320 --> 13:07.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: It is a way of saying thank you for being who we are and producing the interesting discussions that we're able to hear on the airwaves in New York and really around the world, all over the place.
[13:07.680 --> 13:20.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, and yeah, the number, again, for those of you who would like to call, it's 516-620-3602.
[13:20.740 --> 13:24.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can also order at any pledge level.
[13:24.920 --> 13:30.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I want to remind people, I think this is still true, over $25 is you become a member of WBAI.
[13:31.200 --> 13:37.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: So this package at 100 would definitely bring you into the WBAI family.
[13:37.680 --> 13:52.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we're, we're also still doing the WBAI buddy program, which is a way to make continuing contributions as well as if you want to make a one-time pledge right now, give2wbai.org.
[13:52.480 --> 14:08.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or you may also use a short, short number system with SMS, just type WBAI to the numbers 41444 and that will send you a link to make your contribution online.
[14:08.440 --> 14:12.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: A great way to do it, probably from your phone if you're, if you're getting that via SMS.
[14:13.080 --> 14:22.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: So of all those ways, really, it just matters that you give a call, contribute whatever you can, five, 10 bucks, become a buddy, whatever that may be.
[14:22.340 --> 14:33.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe you want the package at $100, become a member of WBAI and give a boost for this show and, and for the station, uh, in the run-up to the holidays here.
[14:34.040 --> 14:34.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[14:34.580 --> 14:43.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, again, if you call 516-620-3602, uh, you can pledge for the, uh, the Hacker Digest or you can pledge for anything else.
[14:43.180 --> 14:45.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's all kinds of things that, that are available.
[14:45.760 --> 14:48.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the important thing is that you make a donation.
[14:48.280 --> 14:54.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, we take all credit cards or you can, you can send a check, you can pay over time, whatever is, is most comfortable to you.
[14:54.480 --> 15:00.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the person picking up the phone, 516-620-3602, will be able to guide you on that journey.
[15:00.320 --> 15:05.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but again, uh, the important thing is to make that phone call, to keep WBAI going.
[15:05.220 --> 15:09.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the advances we've seen here are, are really, uh, inspirational and uplifting.
[15:10.020 --> 15:13.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the, the new studio should be online in the next few weeks.
[15:13.920 --> 15:17.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, we have more phone lines now in this, in this particular studio.
[15:18.080 --> 15:19.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, you know what?
[15:19.240 --> 15:20.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: I see line six is lit.
[15:21.960 --> 15:23.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is somebody on the phone?
[15:24.820 --> 15:26.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, you see that?
[15:26.360 --> 15:26.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's lit.
[15:27.080 --> 15:27.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's on the air.
[15:28.360 --> 15:29.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is anybody there?
[15:30.300 --> 15:30.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[15:30.780 --> 15:31.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to hang up this phone then.
[15:32.380 --> 15:33.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to hit a button first.
[15:34.120 --> 15:34.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[15:34.560 --> 15:34.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you there?
[15:35.460 --> 15:36.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wake up.
[15:36.720 --> 15:39.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: How, how is a phone line just attached like that?
[15:39.920 --> 15:40.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody is connected.
[15:41.640 --> 15:42.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[15:42.260 --> 15:44.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're not going to be connected much longer.
[15:44.080 --> 15:45.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to disconnect you now.
[15:46.040 --> 15:46.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're gone.
[15:47.080 --> 15:47.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just like that.
[15:48.200 --> 15:50.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but, uh, you don't have to be disconnected.
[15:50.620 --> 15:54.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can call 516-620-3602 and pledge your support.
[15:54.000 --> 15:57.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, become a WBAI member.
[15:57.660 --> 15:58.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Become one of our investors.
[15:59.580 --> 16:01.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Keep WBAI on the air.
[16:01.140 --> 16:02.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on since 1960.
[16:02.900 --> 16:04.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: 100% because of listeners like you.
[16:05.900 --> 16:11.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: The, um, improvements you mentioned are actually ongoing and, uh, accumulating quickly.
[16:11.440 --> 16:17.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I know last week, uh, we mentioned the, uh, new paint and, uh, carpeting in the, the, uh, control room.
[16:18.040 --> 16:24.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: The, the, uh, CR1 or soon-to-be control room one, uh, right above Atlantic Avenue.
[16:24.260 --> 16:25.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it is impressive.
[16:25.540 --> 16:29.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've, uh, already put in, uh, a bunch of furniture for, uh, a new desk.
[16:29.880 --> 16:30.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I know...
[16:30.920 --> 16:31.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't in there today.
[16:31.600 --> 16:31.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[16:31.820 --> 16:33.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I haven't, I haven't seen what they've done since.
[16:33.420 --> 16:37.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I'm pretty sure, uh, some of the next steps are running a whole lot of, uh, wires.
[16:38.060 --> 16:41.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, getting all of the utilities and stuff switched over in there.
[16:41.920 --> 16:48.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that, uh, we can eventually move our, um, our, uh, microphones and, uh, broadcast board here.
[16:48.360 --> 16:50.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Into that new spot.
[16:50.360 --> 16:57.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, and then we'll, we'll continue to grow into that, that, uh, new space, uh, over the next 2019 on into 2020.
[16:57.840 --> 17:12.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh, those contributions are, are a real big, uh, factor in keeping our operating expenses, um, uh, at bay and helping us with, uh, extra funds for projects like that with, uh, major capital improvements around here at the radio station.
[17:12.480 --> 17:14.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we hope to be getting improved equipment.
[17:14.420 --> 17:16.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, maybe, you know, people have equipment to donate as well.
[17:16.780 --> 17:19.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, if that's the case, email us, oth@2600.com.
[17:20.020 --> 17:22.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be happy to, uh, uh, answer you as far as that goes.
[17:23.040 --> 17:28.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: But that is how we've gotten to where we are now, uh, is through people pitching in and, uh, doing all kinds of incredible things.
[17:29.080 --> 17:32.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, not the least of which is the listener because without the listener, we are nothing.
[17:33.360 --> 17:35.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: 516-620-3602.
[17:35.260 --> 17:35.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[17:35.560 --> 17:35.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[17:35.860 --> 17:46.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's update people on, um, uh, last week, last week, uh, we, uh, did a special program, uh, with Nancy Wyden about the strand and the danger that the strand has, is facing.
[17:46.080 --> 17:50.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the strand being, uh, one of New York's most beloved bookstores.
[17:50.140 --> 17:52.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's been around almost a hundred years now.
[17:52.360 --> 17:56.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and, um, the, uh, the city has expressed an interest in landmarking it.
[17:56.920 --> 17:58.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Something you would think would be a good idea.
[17:59.280 --> 18:03.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: But actually, when you look at what that entails, it can be fatal to a business.
[18:03.220 --> 18:07.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they had a hearing on Tuesday, uh, and it's gotten a lot of attention since.
[18:08.000 --> 18:11.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, let's, let's, uh, listen to a report that Rob T.
[18:11.480 --> 18:12.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Firefly, uh, put together.
[18:12.780 --> 18:15.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: He was at the hearing yesterday, as was Alex.
[18:15.820 --> 18:19.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, well, here's, here's, uh, what we know so far.
[18:26.910 --> 18:27.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[18:27.370 --> 18:28.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I double-clicked it, Kyle.
[18:28.910 --> 18:30.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just got a little circle spinning.
[18:30.930 --> 18:31.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[18:31.390 --> 18:33.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now the program has finally opened up.
[18:33.310 --> 18:33.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.
[18:33.930 --> 18:35.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have got to get better computers than this.
[18:36.190 --> 18:36.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry.
[18:36.870 --> 18:39.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I probably should have queued up, uh, that application.
[18:39.690 --> 18:40.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that might have been a good idea.
[18:40.810 --> 18:42.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: Take, it's running on a floppy disk.
[18:42.230 --> 18:42.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[18:42.390 --> 18:43.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's, let's, let's try that again.
[18:44.230 --> 18:51.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Strand Bookstore has been a lower Manhattan institution for 91 years, and has been residing in a charming Renaissance Revival building for 62 of those years.
[18:51.950 --> 19:01.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: The building, little changed over its life, has caught the eye of New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission, who have grouped it with six other buildings in the area now being considered for landmark status.
[19:01.590 --> 19:07.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: A public hearing was held on Tuesday, December 4th, during which the commission invited public comment on the proposals.
[19:07.650 --> 19:09.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Honorable Sarah Carroll, Commission Chair.
[19:10.270 --> 19:14.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: This public hearing is an important step in the consideration process.
[19:14.430 --> 19:19.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to make sure that all parties are informed and are able to participate.
[19:20.330 --> 19:24.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just wanted to make sure that everybody understood that there is no vote today.
[19:24.670 --> 19:27.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is a day for listening and gathering information.
[19:27.870 --> 19:36.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: While the board cursorily cited the building's architectural appeal, its own landmark proposal leans heavily on the importance of the Strand Bookstore itself as a cultural institution.
[19:36.590 --> 19:38.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Commission Architectural Historian, Margaret Herman.
[19:38.790 --> 19:45.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Strand's continuing presence serves as an important reminder of the neighborhood's historic role as the center for the book trade in New York City.
[19:46.610 --> 19:58.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Supporters of the Strand, a highly visible presence at the meeting with shirts and badges in the store's signature red, expressed similar views regarding the store's local value, but argued that that is precisely why the building should not be landmarked,
[19:58.130 --> 20:00.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: as landmarking the building would threaten the business within.
[20:01.010 --> 20:03.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Strand owner and building owner, Nancy Wyden.
[20:03.510 --> 20:08.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Our margins are small, and wages are only increasing.
[20:09.230 --> 20:12.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: We operate in a fragile environment.
[20:12.770 --> 20:18.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: After working here all of my life, I know what it takes to keep this store continuing.
[20:19.110 --> 20:24.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: We are at a point where we cannot absorb any unnecessary expenses.
[20:24.710 --> 20:32.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: All of this designation will do is cost us in bureaucracy and time, frustration, money, and uncertainty.
[20:35.410 --> 20:39.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: The Strand's approach here reminds me of John J.
[20:39.570 --> 20:46.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Audubon, who is considered America's greatest naturalist and a preserver of American ornithology.
[20:46.750 --> 20:48.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: However, John J.
[20:48.490 --> 20:53.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Audubon did this by shooting and killing and stuffing his birds before thinking.
[20:55.870 --> 20:57.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Strand patron, Margaret Mercer.
[20:57.870 --> 21:00.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Strand is the building.
[21:00.450 --> 21:03.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: To me, they are one and the same.
[21:03.830 --> 21:13.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we are made that in order to preserve the edifice of the building and its structure, you will lose its soul.
[21:14.470 --> 21:18.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Strand employee and union shop steward, William Bobrosky.
[21:18.890 --> 21:31.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Our 160 workers are able to pay their rent, to feed themselves, and live in this city for one reason only, because they have a job which pays a reasonable wage and with good benefits.
[21:31.810 --> 21:33.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Author, Gary Steingart.
[21:33.810 --> 21:36.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Without the Strand, I would never have become a writer.
[21:37.650 --> 21:41.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Strand is where I came to worship literature, to learn from literature.
[21:41.590 --> 21:45.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: I learned more in the Strand than I had than any of the many college degrees I've ever received.
[21:46.090 --> 21:51.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: And when I was young and wrote, my books set a tremendous discount in the meeting, 50% off business.
[21:52.010 --> 21:54.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Those books made me a writer.
[21:54.670 --> 22:00.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: Though the majority of public viewpoints presented were against landmarking the Strand building, dissenting voices were also heard.
[22:01.330 --> 22:02.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Village resident Trevor Stewart.
[22:03.490 --> 22:12.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Landmarking these seven buildings, as Councilmember Rivera reads as a part of approval, take her while welcomes, is but a token gesture towards protecting this area.
[22:12.350 --> 22:15.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Christabel Gach, of the Society for the Architecture of the City.
[22:15.850 --> 22:28.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: May I add that perhaps this was the founding of Christabel because the objections raised by the ownership of the Strand seemed to us to be unfounded in reality unless they were planning to sell.
[22:29.190 --> 22:33.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: After the hearing's conclusion, feelings among the Strand's supporters were mostly positive.
[22:33.370 --> 22:34.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Alex Herbelis.
[22:34.270 --> 22:36.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we had a tremendous show of support today.
[22:37.230 --> 22:40.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: The whole hearing room was completely packed.
[22:40.150 --> 22:42.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the speakers just were lined up.
[22:42.690 --> 22:45.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: We had more speakers here in support of the Strand than any other building.
[22:46.070 --> 22:47.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: People really get it, too.
[22:47.430 --> 22:57.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: They understand that the architectural history here may be unremarkable, but what's really remarkable about this building is that it's been the home of the Strand for over 60 years.
[22:57.670 --> 23:04.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that the landmarking process could unintentionally kill that which it is seeking to preserve.
[23:04.790 --> 23:05.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nancy Wyden.
[23:05.610 --> 23:15.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was such an outpouring of support and people speaking and red T-shirts and protect the Strand and already a landmark.
[23:15.590 --> 23:16.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it really...
[23:16.670 --> 23:17.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: And media.
[23:17.270 --> 23:19.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it really made a big difference.
[23:19.070 --> 23:21.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's so nice when it's grassroots like that.
[23:21.670 --> 23:24.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the Strand and its supporters await their next move.
[23:24.190 --> 23:28.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, then we have to wait until January or February.
[23:28.550 --> 23:29.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's all in their hands.
[23:29.990 --> 23:31.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: They make up all the roles.
[23:31.150 --> 23:32.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's...
[23:32.230 --> 23:38.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then I think there is a vote from the 11 commissioners, six of which have to agree to it.
[23:39.090 --> 23:47.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think the pressure from the media and the pressure from the village and the New York community will make an impact, I hope.
[23:48.450 --> 23:48.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Rob T.
[23:48.930 --> 23:49.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Firefly.
[23:49.570 --> 23:50.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Off The Hook.
[23:50.770 --> 23:51.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: WBAI.
[23:52.270 --> 23:53.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.
[23:53.310 --> 23:53.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: Rob T.
[23:53.610 --> 23:54.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: Firefly.
[23:54.690 --> 23:55.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: Correspondent on the street.
[23:56.270 --> 24:08.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that was what happened at the Strand hearing to discuss preserving the landmark status and why that might not be such a good idea.
[24:08.430 --> 24:09.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's gotten a lot of attention.
[24:09.830 --> 24:10.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: It really has.
[24:11.030 --> 24:13.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's an editorial in the New York Post of all places.
[24:13.410 --> 24:15.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: New York City should leave the Strand alone.
[24:15.790 --> 24:19.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't often praise the New York Post, but in this particular case, they got it right.
[24:19.850 --> 24:21.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: There was a piece on Channel 7.
[24:21.970 --> 24:27.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: You saw Alex giving that same Audubon analogy, which, yeah, that kind of woke me up.
[24:27.930 --> 24:28.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, that's...
[24:28.690 --> 24:31.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to kill the birds to, you know, to appreciate them.
[24:31.830 --> 24:33.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't sound really that good.
[24:33.570 --> 24:34.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was in The Guardian.
[24:34.370 --> 24:37.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: All kinds of media coverage was there.
[24:37.510 --> 24:40.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's really heartening to see.
[24:40.390 --> 24:52.230]  [SPEAKER_00]: I hope it results in something positive and that that institution is saved because, as you heard, many people were inspired by that particular bookstore, bookstores in general, literacy in general.
[24:52.450 --> 24:55.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: So happy to share this kind of thing with our listeners.
[24:55.830 --> 25:26.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no, it was great to get that recap of what was said and how people feel and I'm glad that we were able to talk about it and discuss just the basics, the principles of it are kind of interesting from a development standpoint, but also with regard to information and sharing information and having outlets and places to discuss things and to learn and what the future holds for institutions like
[25:26.970 --> 25:35.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: this and just the human aspect of how many employees there and, as you said, individuals who are inspired by the place.
[25:35.350 --> 25:58.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: It just really hits home that this kind of stuff, you've got to look at it and you've got to look at it and not blink, you know, because you let too much go by and all of a sudden something you knew of in a place that's so long just disappears and you've not had the chance to even find out why and this seems like it really benefited from the discussion and,
[25:58.950 --> 26:06.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: yeah, like you showed me a couple articles and it's pretty impressive the response from the city, from the community.
[26:06.390 --> 26:18.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely and we'll continue to follow up on that story and give updates and, of course, you can always visit The Strand too out there on Broadway just below 14th, I think on 12th Street and Broadway.
[26:19.150 --> 26:19.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know where it is.
[26:19.750 --> 26:21.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're downtown, you'll know where The Strand is.
[26:21.590 --> 26:22.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody does.
[26:22.930 --> 26:25.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a letter we got from a listener named Mike.
[26:25.750 --> 26:27.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hope you're successful in saving The Strand from this threat.
[26:28.050 --> 26:35.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: I live pretty far away these days but I lived a few blocks from The Strand for almost 20 years and went there quite often.
[26:35.170 --> 26:36.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: Bought lots of books there.
[26:36.810 --> 26:42.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wish to note that while defending books and I concur, you used Homer's Iliad as an example.
[26:42.110 --> 26:43.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think I used Odyssey as an example.
[26:43.910 --> 26:44.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[26:44.370 --> 26:46.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: But that was probably the worst example you could have chosen.
[26:46.970 --> 26:50.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, of course, I excelled at that kind of thing.
[26:50.290 --> 26:51.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: How was it the worst example I could have chosen?
[26:51.950 --> 26:54.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the Iliad wasn't originally written being passed by oral tradition.
[26:54.930 --> 27:01.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: We wouldn't have it today if it weren't eventually written but it was created before the Greeks had a written alphabet and existed for some time simply as an oral work.
[27:01.230 --> 27:01.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: No book.
[27:02.030 --> 27:02.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, Mike.
[27:02.950 --> 27:04.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: You might have me there.
[27:04.270 --> 27:04.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, good.
[27:04.790 --> 27:05.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say Shakespeare then.
[27:05.910 --> 27:06.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right?
[27:06.250 --> 27:07.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: They had books then.
[27:07.530 --> 27:16.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: But my point is if all you had were Kindles back in the days of Homer or the days of Shakespeare, I guarantee you it would not have lasted, would not have been passed on.
[27:16.770 --> 27:22.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: And somebody's version somewhere would have gotten corrupted or it wouldn't have been compatible with the previous one and you would have lost it.
[27:23.130 --> 27:27.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas, you know, at some point whenever you actually write something down, that is when it becomes a permanent record.
[27:28.330 --> 27:34.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: And books are the thing that I think are the common thread throughout any civilization.
[27:34.570 --> 27:39.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: No copy protection, you know, no incompatibilities.
[27:39.770 --> 27:45.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, fire is their problem but that's why you have a lot of books because there's always a copy someplace.
[27:46.370 --> 27:50.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying, you know, let's not have digital technology.
[27:50.530 --> 27:58.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying let's not make that the only thing we rely upon because guaranteed it is not going to go well if we do rely upon that solely.
[27:59.450 --> 28:00.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't...
[28:00.290 --> 28:01.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Would the Bible work?
[28:01.810 --> 28:03.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Would that be a public printed book?
[28:04.050 --> 28:08.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it just feels like any storytelling is not necessarily something that's printed.
[28:10.090 --> 28:16.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: your idea for your novel that you're going to write down someday is not printed, it's an idea.
[28:17.650 --> 28:23.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Those words have yet to be organized and made portable by printing them, so...
[28:23.790 --> 28:28.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, once you print them, that's when it becomes a permanent work of one sort or another.
[28:28.870 --> 28:30.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, but was the Iliad...
[28:30.770 --> 28:32.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole.
[28:32.370 --> 28:33.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Forget it, forget it.
[28:33.130 --> 28:36.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you already went down the rabbit hole so you might as well come back out of it.
[28:37.170 --> 28:39.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, it's fine.
[28:39.730 --> 28:46.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: Once you write it down, that's when it becomes a work of one sort or another and it can get passed on to more people.
[28:46.830 --> 28:47.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[28:47.750 --> 28:59.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the printed book is something that is really sacred and I think we realize that with bookstores and, you know, with magazines and all the things that we are involved in.
[28:59.250 --> 29:13.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's the portability of it, the ability of it to be shared and transferred and then revisited and revised over time which I guess is kind of like the editions or the versions of the Bible and whatnot.
[29:13.710 --> 29:13.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[29:14.030 --> 29:17.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, try looking at your first iPhone and see if you can read the messages on that.
[29:17.670 --> 29:19.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: Find your first digital camera.
[29:19.250 --> 29:20.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: See where the images are.
[29:20.810 --> 29:23.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or what if they didn't write down the stories from the Bible?
[29:24.210 --> 29:25.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe they didn't.
[29:25.170 --> 29:29.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there was a whole other set of stories they didn't or clarification or things like that.
[29:29.610 --> 29:32.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: We wouldn't have all the virtues of religion.
[29:32.510 --> 29:33.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: We wouldn't have Christmas.
[29:33.250 --> 29:35.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: We wouldn't have baby Jesus's birthday.
[29:36.450 --> 29:48.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's another story that we read last week that another listener has decided to write to us about and pick apart a little bit concerning the Proud Boys.
[29:49.310 --> 29:50.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: Longtime listener, appreciate what you guys do.
[29:50.950 --> 29:55.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm writing in regards to the November 28th off the hook because I think there was a misunderstanding about the Proud Boys.
[29:56.110 --> 30:07.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: An important thing to note that the news has admitted the Proud Boys isn't actually a racist group or at least it was never meant to be and was in fact started as a joke on a podcast slash radio show.
[30:08.430 --> 30:12.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: What started as a joke was taken by the audience of the show and they ran wild with it.
[30:12.550 --> 30:16.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is why it seems to be a disorganized mess because it actually wasn't meant to be a real thing.
[30:18.210 --> 30:20.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a letter from Dan S.
[30:20.530 --> 30:30.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: He continues, two people who know the members of the show that spawned the Proud Boys and their real backstory are Joe Rogan and Anthony Cumia formerly of the Opie and Anthony show.
[30:30.970 --> 30:36.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: They discuss what spawned the group on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast episode number 1209.
[30:36.650 --> 30:40.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Although I'm sure you probably won't listen to the show when I got that right.
[30:41.130 --> 30:45.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to at least provide an avenue for more accurate info from people who know what happened.
[30:45.590 --> 30:49.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm by no means a member of the group nor had I even heard of them before the news story came out.
[30:49.510 --> 30:50.950]  [SPEAKER_00]: At any rate, keep fighting the good fight.
[30:51.070 --> 30:57.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Dan, for your letter but I gotta say, you know, okay, it may have started as a joke but these guys are racist.
[30:57.530 --> 30:58.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: These guys are racist.
[30:58.690 --> 30:59.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're jerks.
[30:59.510 --> 31:00.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: They're violent.
[31:00.750 --> 31:06.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what more we need to prove that particular fact and if it got started as a joke, great.
[31:06.470 --> 31:06.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[31:06.850 --> 31:07.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: So did Scientology.
[31:07.690 --> 31:08.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: That got started as a joke.
[31:08.630 --> 31:09.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: Look where that wound up going.
[31:10.790 --> 31:13.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: The truther movement, that started as a joke as well.
[31:13.810 --> 31:25.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: All kinds of things start as jokes and then turn into serious regrets and I think the Proud Boys definitely have some serious regrets or strud anyway but that's just my opinion.
[31:27.270 --> 31:35.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I would say the 2016 election had some jokes in it.
[31:35.470 --> 31:36.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Was it 15 candidates?
[31:37.150 --> 31:37.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah.
[31:37.650 --> 31:38.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: 17 candidates?
[31:38.790 --> 31:42.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: You could say that, you know, Trump's campaign was sort of a joke.
[31:42.790 --> 31:43.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't say that.
[31:43.150 --> 31:55.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you could say that and, you know, in the early days most people would have thought of it that way but then all of a sudden people took it seriously and people, you know, decided to go for it and it's no longer a joke.
[31:55.630 --> 32:02.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, these things that seem to be parodies seem to be long shots turn into reality and everything is turned on its ear.
[32:03.070 --> 32:03.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah.
[32:04.410 --> 32:05.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: South Park was probably a joke.
[32:06.030 --> 32:07.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that started as a joke.
[32:07.510 --> 32:09.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this show was started as a joke.
[32:09.250 --> 32:10.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I don't believe that.
[32:10.470 --> 32:12.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: I never intended for it to go this far.
[32:12.110 --> 32:12.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I made that up.
[32:12.670 --> 32:13.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I don't believe that.
[32:14.210 --> 32:16.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we'll just have to let the listeners decide.
[32:16.750 --> 32:21.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: And one way you can decide is by calling us 516-620-3602.
[32:21.230 --> 32:22.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we got phone lines now, right?
[32:22.810 --> 32:23.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, not here.
[32:24.070 --> 32:26.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: The phone lines for the pledges ring somewhere else.
[32:26.270 --> 32:34.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't see those but we see the people that call in to us when they want to be on the air and there's lots of them but we need to see people pledging.
[32:35.190 --> 32:37.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: 516-620-3602.
[32:37.470 --> 32:50.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: Ask for the Hacker Digest lifetime subscription or really anything else that might be available that you can ask the people to pick up the phone to offer for you for whatever pledge amount you wish to donate to the radio station.
[32:50.750 --> 33:13.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: But for a pledge of $100 you'll get every single issue of 2600 Magazine in digital form from the very beginning January 1984 until the future however long that lasts for for a pledge of only $100 which is the equivalent of about what, four years of a subscription except you're getting 35 plus.
[33:13.670 --> 33:24.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's pretty good and it's something that will last something that you can copy you can even print it out you know in case you're worried about your computer disappearing or something.
[33:25.350 --> 33:26.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: 516-620-3602.
[33:27.590 --> 33:44.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: We really appreciate those people who have called in and support the radio station and your call at this particular point in time also is a vote for we're off the hook to keep us going keep this radio show going on this radio station to demonstrate that people are listening and that they do care about these issues.
[33:44.970 --> 33:56.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we do our best in light of the letters and so on we definitely respond and we give our listeners an opportunity to use these airwaves as well.
[33:56.230 --> 34:14.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: We read your letters and of course occasionally let listeners call in and take those which I'm not promising but maybe if we get a flurry of donations that'll be a sign that we give that number out.
[34:14.310 --> 34:14.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[34:14.630 --> 34:15.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's good.
[34:15.670 --> 34:19.950]  [SPEAKER_00]: If we see a bunch of people pledging then we'll take phone calls later on.
[34:20.070 --> 34:21.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: The capability is there.
[34:21.710 --> 34:24.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's been restored and last couple weeks we took some calls.
[34:25.090 --> 34:36.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: We are always happy to hear from listeners and well it's a little sparse today so maybe we could use the input but we do we get a lot of We can move our arms around for once.
[34:36.450 --> 34:36.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know, yeah.
[34:36.950 --> 34:42.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's like full arms stretched all the way Yeah, last time you did that you hit Alex in the face.
[34:43.230 --> 34:48.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: Basically there's no room and when we move to the bigger studio that'll be good but you can't do what you just did with your arms.
[34:48.770 --> 34:49.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no we can't.
[34:49.650 --> 34:49.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[34:50.290 --> 34:58.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: But anyway we get a lot of feedback and we are always always excited to read your comments and your thoughts.
[34:59.030 --> 35:10.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to read this one right here because we got more and we love getting mail and don't get me wrong people who critique us people who nitpick us to death we love getting your letters as well.
[35:10.330 --> 35:27.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, sure we may give a fact wrong sometimes we may use the wrong word and we expect you to call us on it when we do because we live for that kind of thing and all right let's look at this one we were talking about we were criticizing Apple a few weeks ago and of course yeah,
[35:27.670 --> 35:41.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: oh yeah people people, you know jump on you for that and you expect them to you criticize Google you know everyone's going to jump on you for daring to do that and that's that's just the nature of the game okay so here's here's a letter from
[35:44.390 --> 36:08.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: Ultra Bunny that's your name okay, fine last night's radio show tirade against Apple sounded just like a Trump rally against the press false accusations wild speculations ignorant assessments delusional paranoias you had all the bases covered now mind you I only have 30 years of professional experience as a Mac tech for a wide range of small medium and large companies in New York and many dozens
[36:08.330 --> 36:21.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: of regular folks running their own business and I can't disagree with you more I can't recall all the crazy quips you guys threw at them but But one, no one I've ever met bought a refurbished Mac on Amazon.
[36:21.590 --> 36:22.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: Never, period.
[36:22.750 --> 36:24.230]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't even aware they did that.
[36:24.370 --> 36:26.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: And as a pro, I would not trust those sources.
[36:26.830 --> 36:30.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: I've bought maybe 100 refurbs from the Apple online store and never had an issue with them.
[36:31.110 --> 36:35.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: All in top shape and with a one to three year warranty, which I'm sure Amazon doesn't do.
[36:36.730 --> 36:38.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know, that's you.
[36:39.890 --> 36:48.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: And one of us, I don't know if it was Alex or Rob, one of us said, yeah, I bought a refurbished Mac on Amazon after the show.
[36:48.610 --> 36:52.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I know there are people out there, lots of people out there that have done that in the past.
[36:53.090 --> 36:54.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, great.
[36:54.810 --> 36:55.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have one experience.
[36:56.110 --> 36:57.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: Other people have other experiences.
[36:57.410 --> 36:59.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: The point is that we all get to have these experiences.
[36:59.490 --> 37:06.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: And also consider that the store, Amazon itself, has this sort of implicit trust behind that brand.
[37:06.550 --> 37:22.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you may be a little bit more skeptical of the source, but someone else might take Amazon selling this and something that looks like a good deal as trustworthy by virtue of the association there.
[37:23.670 --> 37:32.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: Continuing along here, as for why there are fewer Mac resellers, because there is no profit margin, not since the mid-90s, because the Apple store has the lowest prices.
[37:32.930 --> 37:41.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: B&H and Adorama may undercut a few bucks by selling you last year's models or upselling you peripherals, but also no real reason to buy from them unless your company has a bulk discount deal.
[37:42.070 --> 37:45.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: Resellers are just unneeded middlemen and not mom and pops in any way.
[37:45.930 --> 37:47.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: Big margins, corporate accounts, huge markups.
[37:47.850 --> 37:55.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: TechServe went out of business because they overcharged on nearly all items and offered $200 an hour service rates while paying their techs minimum wage.
[37:55.230 --> 37:58.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: Most other shops operated the same way, screwing their workers for the boss's profits.
[37:59.150 --> 38:05.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: To quote a great band's lyrics, no tears wasted, no sorrow, no pity, no crying, no loss.
[38:05.930 --> 38:09.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yesterday I dropped a client's MacBook Pro off.
[38:09.370 --> 38:10.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not reading the lyrics anymore.
[38:10.850 --> 38:11.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's in there.
[38:11.650 --> 38:18.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday I dropped a client's MacBook Pro off at an Apple store, and despite being out of warranty, they did the job for free.
[38:18.730 --> 38:25.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: I often come back from genius bar visits with no charges or much lower than expected rates and never asked to buy anything I didn't want.
[38:25.950 --> 38:29.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm a tech, and these people work way cheaper than I do.
[38:29.230 --> 38:31.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: I often refer to my clients to just go to Apple to save money.
[38:32.350 --> 38:33.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's great.
[38:33.870 --> 38:41.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm happy that, you know, you're getting along with these people and, you know, you trust them and they seem to like you.
[38:41.090 --> 38:42.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: But how about some choice?
[38:43.130 --> 38:44.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: How about some, you know, competition?
[38:45.690 --> 38:47.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what it's all about.
[38:47.530 --> 38:55.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what it sounds like you're saying is that these guys do it right, so they should dictate who else gets to do it at all.
[38:56.130 --> 38:57.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't seem fair.
[38:57.350 --> 39:00.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't seem like there's any incentive for them to stay on their toes.
[39:01.750 --> 39:03.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: The not hardware hackable argument.
[39:04.130 --> 39:10.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's true that right to repair is a valid issue in general, but you're missing the point that computers now are appliances.
[39:11.090 --> 39:12.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: And more so for phones.
[39:12.290 --> 39:16.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: Really, honestly, no one needs or wants to putz around with the internals of their machine anymore.
[39:17.110 --> 39:19.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: People use computers to get their work done.
[39:20.030 --> 39:21.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Seems like kind of a blanket statement there.
[39:21.790 --> 39:23.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, is that true, folks?
[39:23.330 --> 39:26.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody out there wants to putz around with their computers anymore.
[39:26.330 --> 39:26.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's it?
[39:26.830 --> 39:27.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: Done?
[39:27.490 --> 39:32.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: We're just going to seal them up and bring it to the genius bar and have them deal with it in the future?
[39:32.770 --> 39:33.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, speak for yourself.
[39:33.950 --> 39:46.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that's a pretty bold claim coming from something that began as homebrew and something distinctly of the hobbyist world.
[39:46.510 --> 39:53.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: People who really like to hack and take apart and understand their machines that they own and build.
[39:54.730 --> 40:04.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: That may be a popular or convenient attitude to have, but it's not necessarily something that serves everyone.
[40:04.530 --> 40:08.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, again, it's an experience.
[40:08.030 --> 40:09.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not an invalid experience.
[40:09.530 --> 40:10.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's your experience.
[40:10.410 --> 40:12.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not everybody's experience.
[40:12.470 --> 40:13.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, continuing.
[40:13.350 --> 40:21.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the only people who care about hardware hacking just do that to build gaming machines, not to start their own businesses or work efficiently in their jobs.
[40:21.310 --> 40:32.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Find me a video editor or a florist or a music producer or a school administrator or an interface designer who has free time to care about the cooling units on their GPUs or needing eight-year-old legacy peripheral ports.
[40:33.070 --> 40:42.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: You want a reliable machine that has few, if no, user-serviceable parts and just works and can be fixed by friendly faces when needed who won't upsell you, price gouge you, or treat you like an idiot.
[40:43.030 --> 40:44.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, I can see that.
[40:44.650 --> 40:45.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: I can agree with that.
[40:45.410 --> 40:47.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: I can identify with that completely.
[40:47.850 --> 40:51.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: But also, I want to be able to pick where I take something, who I trust.
[40:51.970 --> 40:54.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: And just because you trust Apple doesn't mean I trust Apple.
[40:54.450 --> 40:57.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe somebody else knows something more than they're willing to tell you.
[40:58.310 --> 40:59.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they don't.
[40:59.310 --> 41:00.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: But let me make that decision.
[41:00.810 --> 41:01.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't make it for me.
[41:02.790 --> 41:03.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: Continuing.
[41:03.410 --> 41:04.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: You want to hack?
[41:04.210 --> 41:04.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hack the culture.
[41:04.930 --> 41:05.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hack the world.
[41:05.550 --> 41:08.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: RAM and hard drives are utterly insignificant for big-picture thinking.
[41:09.490 --> 41:10.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: Your opinion.
[41:10.790 --> 41:14.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can't make these blanket statements and expect them to apply to everybody.
[41:15.670 --> 41:31.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, amidst all this naysaying, look at all the great art, the great beauty, great films and music and photography, and even great coding and app development that were done because Macs inspire people who wouldn't be inspired by the DIY minimalism and head-scratching complexity of Linux or Debian or Windows 8.
[41:32.010 --> 41:37.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you just opened up some Pandora's boxes there that I think you might not have wanted to open up.
[41:37.170 --> 41:41.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, including Windows 8 in a sentence with Linux and Debian.
[41:41.730 --> 41:42.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, there's that.
[41:43.030 --> 41:52.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: But also to say that nobody has ever been inspired by DIY minimalism and dealing with these OSs.
[41:53.270 --> 41:54.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[41:54.170 --> 42:02.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to let them write in to oth@2600.com and express it in ways that I probably would not be able to do justice to.
[42:02.030 --> 42:12.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just think that is completely, you know, what one person's, you know, your perspective, but it does not apply to everybody by far.
[42:12.970 --> 42:15.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's a reductionist attitude, I think.
[42:16.050 --> 42:31.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the software and stuff that he mentioned, I mean, is something that has been really inspiring to a lot of people, specifically Linux and versions of it like Debian and so on and so forth.
[42:31.810 --> 42:57.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the statement about it being hard in some ways or the head scratching, I mean, that is historically has been an attribute of some of these operating systems that are, you know, projects or that had more advanced, that required more advanced skills like compiling your software packages or the entirety of the OS and so on and so forth.
[42:57.750 --> 43:02.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: So installation historically was a hurdle for a lot of people, but a lot of that has changed.
[43:02.570 --> 43:18.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of these work out of the box, even Raspberry Pi stuff, you basically can just get an imaged memory card and you're not even compiling it or formatting anything, you're basically just turning it on.
[43:18.990 --> 43:27.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: So many people have been inspired and in realization or in reflection upon those difficulties and have since fixed them.
[43:27.370 --> 43:30.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: So there's been a lot of development in the area.
[43:30.330 --> 43:41.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And as far as creativity being, you know, that people want simple stuff to just do their work and to make art and wonderful things.
[43:41.190 --> 43:47.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I agree that that's great, that a lot of stuff has come about from the ease of use.
[43:47.690 --> 43:51.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: But that ease of use is not the stock and trade of just one company.
[43:51.930 --> 43:55.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's done well with Apple in some regards.
[43:55.690 --> 44:06.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the ease of using technology is something that any technology or any software system or hardware could have as an attribute of it.
[44:07.170 --> 44:20.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: And someone could just as easily, I would say, make art or a script or some film production with another version and say the same thing.
[44:20.530 --> 44:27.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's not an exclusive attribute, I think, of that brand of, in this case, Apple, right?
[44:27.170 --> 44:35.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the thing is, you would not have Max today were it not for that DIY minimalism and head-scratching because that's how you develop things, that's how you build things.
[44:35.690 --> 44:50.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: And to say that, okay, this is done, you're not allowed to touch it anymore, it can only go back to the authorized dealer, they're the only ones that understand it and will fix it, that, to me, just seems to fly in the face of the spirit of hacking, the spirit of learning.
[44:51.270 --> 44:55.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just something that, by default, we object to.
[44:55.250 --> 44:57.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think that's ever going to change.
[44:57.930 --> 45:03.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, it says, it's not defying what has been accomplished with these machines.
[45:03.930 --> 45:06.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, amazing things have been, that's great.
[45:06.690 --> 45:10.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: Those are people that are not interested in doing the things we're talking about.
[45:10.730 --> 45:12.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: They want a machine that works.
[45:12.330 --> 45:13.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's great that that exists.
[45:14.130 --> 45:26.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: But there are other people there that want to tinker, that want to learn more, that want to take things apart, break them, fix them, have other people look at them and not simply be beholden to a corporation just because they got it right.
[45:27.070 --> 45:31.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they want to reuse them and re-implement them in ways they weren't ever intended to be used.
[45:31.950 --> 45:37.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's another, I think, big part of innovation and pushing things, but also preserving things.
[45:37.250 --> 45:45.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know a lot of people that are using older systems and retrocomputing, just to get older stuff to work, you need to kind of have an understanding, a low-level understanding.
[45:45.530 --> 45:57.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: And also, just, you know, our world in general is not just going to be Apple movie produced, you know, people making things with Final Cut or, like, you know, artists who have a Mac.
[45:57.550 --> 46:00.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Like, that is not the entirety of our society.
[46:00.150 --> 46:03.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I really don't want to live in a world that accepts that as...
[46:04.230 --> 46:18.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Those are the only people that are using technology is, like, a guy who, you know, is writing music on his Mac and a girl who's, you know, making a beautiful website on her Mac.
[46:18.610 --> 46:19.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Like, whatever.
[46:20.210 --> 46:26.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is kind of really stereotypical and not at all the reality.
[46:26.690 --> 46:34.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think we need a flourishing of all kinds of knowledge around both the hardware, software, and the creative tools that they enable.
[46:34.710 --> 46:39.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you talk about this kind of thing, and a lot of images stand out.
[46:39.690 --> 46:42.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: We were in a mall yesterday, and we walked past the Apple store.
[46:42.910 --> 46:47.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just weird looking in, because every time you walk by an Apple store, you just see all these people just standing around.
[46:47.410 --> 46:55.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, I don't want to, you know, mock it in a way, but it did seem kind of like looking at a pasture full of cows just sort of standing there.
[46:56.110 --> 46:57.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they were, like, at the trough, you know?
[46:57.730 --> 46:59.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what was going on.
[46:59.270 --> 47:05.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the heads down in their rows of other livestock, and they just, you know, had their nose in the trough.
[47:06.090 --> 47:09.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: And those stores are supposed to be eye-catching, too.
[47:09.630 --> 47:17.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you're supposed to walk by and sort of be in awe of this space that is unusual in the midst of a mall setting.
[47:17.830 --> 47:20.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: I was in awe, for sure, but it was just, it was weird.
[47:20.630 --> 47:22.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been in those stores, too.
[47:22.150 --> 47:27.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it just seems like the mentality there is just keep buying things, keep buying the new version, the new hardware.
[47:27.910 --> 47:30.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, okay, you know, that's how Mac has become successful.
[47:30.710 --> 47:47.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: Ever since the very first Mac, which this reader delves into in just a moment, I've noticed, you know, a particular routine that seems to happen where you buy this new version, this new computer, it's fast, lightning fast, amazing.
[47:47.850 --> 47:50.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then over the months, it just gets slower and slower.
[47:50.570 --> 47:56.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then a program that you want to upgrade no longer works on that machine, and you have to buy another machine in order to run the program.
[47:56.410 --> 47:58.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it just keeps going in an endless loop.
[47:58.210 --> 48:00.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: And come on, folks, how many iPhones have you bought?
[48:00.850 --> 48:02.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: How many Macs have you bought?
[48:02.190 --> 48:09.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't brag about the fact that I sometimes use the same machine for over 10 years, but it's good to be able to do that.
[48:09.430 --> 48:19.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's good to have that kind of stability for something that you don't need to upgrade if it's just simply, you know, a mail server or some basic communication.
[48:19.750 --> 48:29.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you're making films, if you're, you know, painting things, and you need the latest art software, you're going to have to upgrade to keep up.
[48:29.890 --> 48:33.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're a true artist, you'll make it work no matter what you have.
[48:33.130 --> 48:38.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that I think a lot of people get lost in, in the Mac world, that they have to constantly be buying things.
[48:38.870 --> 48:43.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: No, if you're good, you know, you can make it work on virtually nothing.
[48:43.990 --> 48:50.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: And just because everybody's got a camera in their phone does not mean everybody's a photographer, does not mean that.
[48:50.330 --> 48:56.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: Because everybody can run a program, they're not all publishers.
[48:57.430 --> 49:01.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that we keep coming back to, just the mass proliferation.
[49:01.930 --> 49:03.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's good and there's bad.
[49:03.690 --> 49:05.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, let's finish up this letter.
[49:05.830 --> 49:09.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: The world is much larger than basement hobbyists and server farmers.
[49:10.050 --> 49:14.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: I never needed Apple marketing to show me why Macs created joy, actual joy.
[49:14.170 --> 49:20.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just turned on my tiny beige plus in 1987, saw that smiley face, and I knew the world had changed to a better place.
[49:20.270 --> 49:24.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: And a week later, I was running my own noise rock cassette label and fanzine.
[49:24.610 --> 49:33.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: And shortly afterwards, parlaying those skills to a fun career, surrounded by hundreds of brilliant New Yorkers happily using their Macs to make the world better.
[49:33.490 --> 49:35.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: I've just read a Mac commercial, haven't I?
[49:35.870 --> 49:36.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay.
[49:36.530 --> 49:38.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think they're all making the world better.
[49:38.270 --> 49:39.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, some people are.
[49:39.290 --> 49:40.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I identified...
[49:40.610 --> 49:43.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I felt the same feelings when I saw that little smiley face.
[49:43.750 --> 49:46.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about the people using Macs are making the world wholesale worse?
[49:48.030 --> 49:48.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Isis.
[49:48.750 --> 49:50.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: They use Macs, do they?
[49:50.390 --> 49:51.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think they could.
[49:51.790 --> 49:53.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, maybe they get like a bulk discount or something.
[49:54.030 --> 49:54.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[49:54.410 --> 49:55.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: Ultra Bunny, thank you for your letter.
[49:55.630 --> 49:56.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, it was...
[49:57.350 --> 49:58.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's good to hear different perspectives.
[49:58.750 --> 50:01.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: But here's another perspective.
[50:01.770 --> 50:04.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd kind of like you to read this too, because the print is really kind of small.
[50:04.670 --> 50:06.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is actually from one of our digest.
[50:06.470 --> 50:06.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[50:06.710 --> 50:07.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, wow.
[50:07.090 --> 50:08.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I recognize the page.
[50:08.230 --> 50:10.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's under the title Complaints.
[50:10.510 --> 50:16.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is just one of the things you can get by calling 516-620-3602.
[50:16.750 --> 50:20.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is an excerpt from one of our past issues.
[50:20.130 --> 50:36.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you call that number and you pledge for the Hacker Digest for $100, you'll get every single issue, every single digest of 2600 Magazine that has come out since 1984, and you'll get every single one into the future.
[50:38.490 --> 50:40.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: 516-620-3602.
[50:40.790 --> 50:44.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, Kyle, there's a letter there that's rather apropos today.
[50:44.690 --> 50:45.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[50:45.290 --> 50:46.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a date on the bottom of the page there?
[50:47.050 --> 50:47.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[50:47.530 --> 50:50.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: This would be the summer of 2004.
[50:50.470 --> 50:50.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[50:50.910 --> 50:52.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's about 14 years ago.
[50:52.730 --> 50:52.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[50:53.110 --> 50:53.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[50:54.070 --> 50:58.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is under the Complaints subheading in our letter section.
[50:58.310 --> 51:08.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: It starts, Dear 2600, if Apple would stop trying to make themselves a monopoly in their own market and use a standard PC architecture, they would get so much more business.
[51:08.810 --> 51:18.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: I realize they do use some standard PC components in their computers, but the core components, like the motherboard, still have to come from Apple.
[51:19.590 --> 51:24.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Microsoft obviously didn't get where they are today by having good software.
[51:24.470 --> 51:30.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: They got where they are thanks to everyone not having to buy PCs and their components from a single manufacturer.
[51:31.030 --> 51:36.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: This created competition, which drove down PC prices and greatly increased their popularity.
[51:37.570 --> 51:45.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Apple has some real breakthrough ideas, but the problem is that most people aren't getting to buy a new, very overpriced computer just to use them.
[51:46.390 --> 51:50.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or aren't going to buy a new, very overpriced computer just to use them.
[51:51.130 --> 52:00.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: I remember back when PCs used to cost $2,600 without a monitor, but their popularity and competition has greatly reduced their prices.
[52:01.130 --> 52:06.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yet, Macs still cost close to the same, at least for a decent one.
[52:06.650 --> 52:13.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can get a PC loaded with software and a monitor and a printer for the same price, if not less, than that of a Mac.
[52:13.590 --> 52:21.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: If Apple were only smart enough to take advantage of the PC's popularity and price drop, I think they could greatly increase their market share.
[52:22.030 --> 52:31.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Unless Apple stops this anti-competitive crap, Linux will triumph over the Microsoft monopoly long before Apple even has a chance.
[52:31.850 --> 52:32.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow!
[52:32.450 --> 52:35.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that was from the summer of 2004.
[52:36.530 --> 52:41.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: People writing about Mac, the Apple mentality, $2,600.
[52:42.030 --> 52:45.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is an example of how you can learn from the past.
[52:45.510 --> 52:49.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can apply that perspective to today, see if it's changed, see if it has not changed.
[52:50.570 --> 52:54.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, 516-6203-602, pledge for the Hacker Digest, $100.
[52:54.890 --> 52:59.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll get that and every single other letter and issue that we have put out since 1984.
[52:59.570 --> 53:32.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think of so many different things in between that are sort of related, like boot camp working on some of the original Intel core processors that Apple had in their laptops that allowed you to run PCOS in like a dual boot scenario and stuff and then various milestones with other hardware generations and size then becoming increasingly diminutive with phones and cell phones proliferating and on
[53:32.050 --> 53:35.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: into now where we are with some of the Linux and free software.
[53:36.030 --> 53:39.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: There's one more letter I'd like to get to concerning this.
[53:39.710 --> 53:44.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was good hearing you cover Apple and Amazon basically working together to thwart the right to repair.
[53:44.590 --> 53:54.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: I've learned much about this from watching Louis Rossman's channel, which started as a collection of videos teaching repair of common motherboard faults.
[53:54.810 --> 53:59.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: It got interesting for him when he started getting threats for showing simple things like how to replace fuses.
[53:59.530 --> 54:03.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's amping up with his orders of parts being seized by customs.
[54:03.970 --> 54:05.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're talking about, folks.
[54:05.470 --> 54:15.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: It comes as no surprise that an authorized repairer went out of business since the process of becoming authorized denies them the right to make straightforward and timely repairs for common faults.
[54:15.690 --> 54:24.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: What an independent can do in half an hour takes weeks and costs the customer big money, over $700, for a replacement, but not new motherboard.
[54:25.310 --> 54:32.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: Apple doesn't allow authorized repairers to stockpile parts, nor do any board level repair even trivial things.
[54:32.630 --> 54:40.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: New Apple models add repair challenges, including the use of chips with internal programming, which can only be sourced from broken machines, quote unquote donors.
[54:41.690 --> 54:45.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: Diagnostic code documentation only available to those who cannot use them for actual repair.
[54:46.070 --> 54:47.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: Very familiar to car enthusiasts.
[54:48.170 --> 54:52.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: Gluing in batteries, a consumable, making replacement dangerous.
[54:52.930 --> 54:57.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: Soldered on RAM and SSDs with latest models now removing a data recovery port.
[54:57.330 --> 55:00.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: Apple won't data recover at any price you offer.
[55:00.670 --> 55:07.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: Use of bogus moisture sensors and laser micrometers to wriggle out of servicing contracts.
[55:07.530 --> 55:10.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: Digital keying of components like screens.
[55:10.810 --> 55:14.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: So swapping working parts between machines can be detected.
[55:14.470 --> 55:19.890]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the machine remotely disabled, like from iTunes at Apple's whim.
[55:20.170 --> 55:21.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, we're not talking phones here.
[55:22.090 --> 55:24.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: These are multi-thousand-dollar computers.
[55:25.990 --> 55:43.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you watch any videos, what is being suggested here by our listener, Ricardo, is the one that is described as Louis featuring on a Canadian CBC TV expose of Apple's shady practices.
[55:43.470 --> 55:45.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure if you type that into YouTube, you'll be able to find it.
[55:46.230 --> 55:47.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: Louis spelled L-U-I-S.
[55:48.110 --> 55:56.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: A review of Apple suing a repair shop owner in Norway, making the case for a distinction between refurbishing and counterfeiting, or fighting U.S.
[55:56.670 --> 55:58.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: customs for batteries they've seized.
[55:59.470 --> 56:07.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: Alex, who's not here tonight, you might find this open Q&A with his lawyer interesting, given how Apple is using border protection to bolster its business.
[56:07.990 --> 56:11.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: With Louis being New York-based, you might be able to hook up for a chat.
[56:11.510 --> 56:14.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: His ability to diagnose faults is incredibly complex.
[56:14.750 --> 56:22.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: And tiny circuits using a little more than a multimeter combined with the tenacity in his repairs, for me, truly embodies the hacker spirit.
[56:22.450 --> 56:23.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, Ricardo, I could not agree more.
[56:23.830 --> 56:27.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that is precisely the kind of thing that we're talking about here.
[56:27.710 --> 56:29.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: But again, we're open to all perspectives.
[56:29.290 --> 56:31.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: We'd love to hear from opposing views.
[56:31.650 --> 56:35.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: oth@2600.com is our email address.
[56:35.910 --> 56:41.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: And 516-620-3602 is our telephone number.
[56:42.550 --> 56:49.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we hope that you call in, pledge your support, and get the Hacker Digest for a pledge of $100.
[56:49.370 --> 57:00.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll be able to hear about all sorts of amazing advances in technology of the past, present, and you'll be able to theorize about the future as much as anyone else.
[57:00.850 --> 57:02.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's going to do it for us tonight.
[57:03.330 --> 57:04.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just me and Kyle tonight.
[57:05.230 --> 57:06.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: Next week, hopefully...
[57:06.370 --> 57:06.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[57:06.790 --> 57:08.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: We should just not show up next week.
[57:08.450 --> 57:09.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: How about that?
[57:09.310 --> 57:09.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[57:09.810 --> 57:10.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: It will get even.
[57:10.770 --> 57:12.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: See how you like it.
[57:12.130 --> 57:13.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, see how you like it, folks.
[57:14.790 --> 57:16.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll be back next week, one form or another.
[57:17.850 --> 57:20.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned for more exciting programming here on WBAI.
[57:20.790 --> 57:21.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: Until next time.
[57:22.150 --> 57:22.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good night.
[57:23.210 --> 57:25.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: And write to us, oth@2600.com.
[57:25.830 --> 57:26.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.
[57:27.430 --> 57:29.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, and there are 2600 meetings this Friday.
[57:30.130 --> 57:31.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: All throughout the world.
[57:31.330 --> 57:36.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: Check out 2600.com/meetings for more information on that.
[57:36.770 --> 57:37.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bye-bye.