[00:00.000 --> 00:00.920] [SPEAKER_01]: ...nationalism.
[00:01.080 --> 00:07.040] [SPEAKER_01]: It's declared war on its workers, and ever more people are being consumed by poverty.
[00:07.220 --> 00:22.100] [SPEAKER_01]: To inspire and guide us to fight poverty, not the poor, we'll reconsecrate and raise up the radical king who challenged the triple pillars upon which capitalism rests, racism, militarism, and poverty.
[00:22.380 --> 00:27.100] [SPEAKER_01]: Building ridges Monday, January 21st, from 7 to 10 p.m.
[00:34.490 --> 00:38.750] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:38.910 --> 00:41.470] [SPEAKER_06]: The time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:42.830 --> 00:46.390] [SPEAKER_06]: And that means it's time for another edition of Off The Hook.
[00:48.890 --> 00:50.390] [SPEAKER_06]: Here on WBAI.
[00:54.780 --> 00:59.300] [SPEAKER_10]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:00.220 --> 01:04.760] [SPEAKER_10]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:13.750 --> 01:16.330] [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood one day later.
[02:41.660 --> 02:43.500] [SPEAKER_06]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:43.580 --> 02:44.520] [SPEAKER_06]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:44.620 --> 02:48.340] [SPEAKER_06]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Alex.
[02:48.680 --> 02:49.140] [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[02:49.580 --> 02:49.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Kyle.
[02:50.520 --> 02:50.740] [SPEAKER_07]: Hey.
[02:51.360 --> 02:52.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Walter's in the background.
[02:52.560 --> 02:52.800] [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[02:53.160 --> 02:54.700] [SPEAKER_06]: And Mitch Altman is joining us.
[02:54.840 --> 02:55.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[02:55.720 --> 02:56.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[02:56.440 --> 02:57.400] [SPEAKER_06]: So here we are.
[02:57.840 --> 03:00.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Kyle, we're back from weeks of travel.
[03:00.420 --> 03:00.940] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[03:01.340 --> 03:01.920] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[03:02.880 --> 03:05.040] [SPEAKER_06]: We're kind of shell-shocked, so bear with us, please.
[03:05.960 --> 03:07.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Just getting used to things.
[03:07.700 --> 03:09.920] [SPEAKER_06]: It's about 90 degrees in the studio for some reason.
[03:10.560 --> 03:16.460] [SPEAKER_06]: Our new studio is being built as we speak, so you might hear some hammering and cursing, which we'll do our best to mute.
[03:17.680 --> 03:21.480] [SPEAKER_06]: And we have all kinds of stories to talk about in the world of hacking, in the world of technology.
[03:21.980 --> 03:23.500] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, and yes, we're on at 7 o'clock now.
[03:23.560 --> 03:23.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you notice that?
[03:24.040 --> 03:24.900] [SPEAKER_06]: We were on an hour earlier.
[03:25.440 --> 03:28.000] [SPEAKER_06]: I know you guys did this last week, an hour earlier.
[03:28.280 --> 03:29.120] [SPEAKER_06]: And how did that go?
[03:29.300 --> 03:31.560] [SPEAKER_07]: I just feel so much less efficient.
[03:32.000 --> 03:33.140] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, I lost a day.
[03:33.480 --> 03:35.220] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, you know, daylight savings.
[03:35.320 --> 03:37.020] [SPEAKER_06]: I learned about it on page six of the post.
[03:37.160 --> 03:40.960] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, the gossip thing, that's where they alert people that things have changed.
[03:41.040 --> 03:43.760] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, now we're back in our usual time slot.
[03:43.900 --> 03:44.540] [SPEAKER_06]: I like it better.
[03:44.700 --> 03:46.040] [SPEAKER_06]: I like it better at 7 o'clock.
[03:46.600 --> 03:47.560] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a little jarring.
[03:47.560 --> 03:51.040] [SPEAKER_06]: You get to meet a lot more people on the highway coming in.
[03:51.540 --> 03:53.920] [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, did they find the child?
[03:54.500 --> 03:58.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Kyle, we were driving in, and there was this Amber Alert.
[03:58.420 --> 04:04.240] [SPEAKER_06]: And all the signs everywhere, Amber Alert, tuned to local media.
[04:04.500 --> 04:06.040] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there was no information whatsoever.
[04:06.040 --> 04:08.560] [SPEAKER_08]: I think when I looked at my phone, it was Bronx-related.
[04:08.860 --> 04:09.340] [SPEAKER_06]: Whatever.
[04:09.340 --> 04:14.220] [SPEAKER_06]: But the point is, why in God's name don't they have the information on the big sign?
[04:14.220 --> 04:17.120] [SPEAKER_06]: That they used to have a license plate number or something.
[04:17.400 --> 04:19.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Instead, they say, Amber Alert, tuned to local media.
[04:20.120 --> 04:22.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, this is local media right here.
[04:22.180 --> 04:23.660] [SPEAKER_06]: We're in local media.
[04:23.920 --> 04:26.960] [SPEAKER_06]: And we have no idea what child is missing from where.
[04:27.340 --> 04:28.900] [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, we can't help you.
[04:29.020 --> 04:31.740] [SPEAKER_06]: So if you've gone to us after looking at the sign, sorry.
[04:32.000 --> 04:34.500] [SPEAKER_06]: And the same thing is true of other radio stations as well.
[04:34.580 --> 04:41.240] [SPEAKER_06]: They don't know or they're not, you know, I'm not going to listen to an hour of country music just to hear one announcement about some missing kid.
[04:41.240 --> 04:44.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so, folks, whose idea...
[04:44.200 --> 04:45.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Alex, you're a lawyer.
[04:45.220 --> 04:46.000] [SPEAKER_06]: You should know these things.
[04:46.200 --> 04:56.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Whose idea was it to stop using the sign to convey the information that's important that people on the road should know about, such as this car has a kidnapped kid in it with this license plate?
[04:56.360 --> 05:03.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Instead, now you have to go to a radio station somewhere and hope that maybe they're talking about that and then somehow keep track of the information they're talking about.
[05:03.840 --> 05:06.700] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what being a lawyer has to do with identifying...
[05:06.700 --> 05:07.660] [SPEAKER_06]: Because you know things.
[05:07.720 --> 05:08.880] [SPEAKER_07]: ...that kind of idiocy.
[05:08.980 --> 05:10.040] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're responsible for things.
[05:10.040 --> 05:14.100] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but I have no idea, frankly, who did this, but it is such a bad idea.
[05:14.200 --> 05:15.320] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the worst idea ever.
[05:15.960 --> 05:17.080] [SPEAKER_07]: It's absolutely terrible.
[05:17.260 --> 05:20.380] [SPEAKER_06]: I got so frustrated driving around before, it was awful.
[05:20.500 --> 05:22.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, Kyle, you were driving, but I got frustrated anyway.
[05:22.940 --> 05:25.760] [SPEAKER_07]: But to answer the question, I do believe that the child was found.
[05:26.220 --> 05:26.560] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, good.
[05:26.560 --> 05:29.880] [SPEAKER_07]: I received a separate alert on my phone that actually said the child was found.
[05:29.880 --> 05:30.840] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's another thing.
[05:31.040 --> 05:35.860] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we're trying to listen to the FA Cup with Southampton, and I don't know if they beat Darby or not.
[05:35.860 --> 05:39.260] [SPEAKER_06]: We were, you know, really riveted to that game, listening on TuneIn.
[05:39.400 --> 05:45.660] [SPEAKER_06]: And all of a sudden, we get this emergency alert tone with the same message on our phones saying, Tune to local media.
[05:45.960 --> 05:48.820] [SPEAKER_06]: And again, you know, local media isn't going to have this information.
[05:48.820 --> 05:54.940] [SPEAKER_06]: Why don't you just give us the information instead of sending us all these alerts telling us to do something else to get the information?
[05:54.940 --> 06:04.240] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's a lot of overlap of technologies interrupting one another and then to just only get this sort of vague, vague non-message.
[06:04.340 --> 06:09.700] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just, you know, I have a particular issue with technology that is designed poorly.
[06:09.980 --> 06:24.920] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, when you have something that's a great idea, but then you just do something stupid, such as a design of subway cars, where, you know, they have arrows pointing the wrong way when, you know, of the direction the car is moving, and you're supposed to keep track of the subway station that comes up next.
[06:25.160 --> 06:26.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Little things like that.
[06:26.480 --> 06:34.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Or, you know, announcements that don't convey the information or that tell the time wrong or just are inane and stupid.
[06:34.700 --> 06:36.620] [SPEAKER_06]: There's all kinds of ways you can make things better.
[06:36.720 --> 06:37.180] [SPEAKER_06]: We see this.
[06:37.240 --> 06:39.400] [SPEAKER_06]: When we travel around the world, we see things that work.
[06:39.920 --> 06:46.240] [SPEAKER_06]: We were in the London Underground, and you see, you know, basic information such as what the next stop is.
[06:46.380 --> 06:55.040] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's, you know, it's displayed in lettering that's clear, that doesn't flicker, that's, you know, consistent.
[06:55.980 --> 06:59.820] [SPEAKER_06]: And then we come back here, and we see all kinds of things that just don't make any sense.
[06:59.920 --> 07:01.460] [SPEAKER_06]: It could be done so much better.
[07:02.040 --> 07:07.080] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I like to think there are people out there that are thinking of better ways to do things.
[07:07.200 --> 07:11.120] [SPEAKER_06]: But sometimes you have to, you have to kind of ask people, you know, what do you want?
[07:11.340 --> 07:13.400] [SPEAKER_06]: And I get the feeling that's not happening enough.
[07:13.400 --> 07:25.000] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I feel like we're sorely in need of some technological ergonomics that haven't quite bubbled to the surface in these new schemes, especially here at home.
[07:25.100 --> 07:31.200] [SPEAKER_08]: We see great examples of good implementations of it, especially in like transit and stuff when we're in other cities.
[07:31.420 --> 07:42.640] [SPEAKER_08]: But I guess it's that we want it for our home and to see it in places that matter to us every day and the people we care about back home.
[07:42.800 --> 07:44.560] [SPEAKER_08]: We really, we know we can do it.
[07:44.700 --> 07:47.300] [SPEAKER_08]: But it just seems like it gets to be like a backburner thing.
[07:47.420 --> 07:49.320] [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't ever really become the priority.
[07:49.480 --> 07:57.420] [SPEAKER_06]: We've been in a number of cities since we were here in the studio last and London and Krakow, Warsaw.
[07:58.480 --> 08:02.460] [SPEAKER_06]: And every city seems to have it down as far as, let's say you're on a bus.
[08:03.060 --> 08:05.600] [SPEAKER_06]: You always know what stop is coming up because it's displayed.
[08:05.620 --> 08:06.780] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't need to know the language.
[08:07.400 --> 08:10.480] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, in a city like New York, we should have things like that.
[08:10.580 --> 08:18.580] [SPEAKER_06]: We should be able to have a display that tells you what's coming up next or how long it's going to be before a bus or a train is going to show up.
[08:18.680 --> 08:20.700] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's actually based in reality.
[08:21.080 --> 08:22.360] [SPEAKER_06]: We don't seem to have that.
[08:22.480 --> 08:24.400] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know why it's so difficult for us.
[08:25.660 --> 08:26.040] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[08:26.340 --> 08:41.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Building up two points on the design issue, you know, number one, these Amber Alerts, when they come up, if they're not giving the information, they're telling you to tune in somewhere else, it's actually really dangerous, especially if you're driving and you want to get the information and all of a sudden you're opening up a web browser on your phone.
[08:41.780 --> 08:42.720] [SPEAKER_07]: Really idiotic.
[08:42.820 --> 08:43.640] [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't know why.
[08:43.640 --> 08:52.300] [SPEAKER_07]: I would love to know why it changed from actually displaying the information that was relevant at that particular moment to not displaying that information and telling you to tune in somewhere else.
[08:52.460 --> 09:04.160] [SPEAKER_07]: But then building off your separate point, which was the London Underground point, one thing that I miss, having lived in London and now living in New York again, were two different lanes to enter and exit the subway.
[09:04.640 --> 09:10.480] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I'd actually travel on the subway a lot now with my dogs back and forth to work, two dogs, and take them on the subway.
[09:10.600 --> 09:12.000] [SPEAKER_07]: You're probably not really supposed to do it.
[09:12.060 --> 09:13.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Two different lanes to enter the subway.
[09:13.760 --> 09:15.100] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm trying to picture what that is.
[09:15.180 --> 09:16.140] [SPEAKER_07]: So there's an entrance and an exit.
[09:16.740 --> 09:17.160] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, all right.
[09:17.160 --> 09:22.360] [SPEAKER_07]: There aren't people going in and out of the same turnstile, you know, at the same moment, which like we have in New York.
[09:22.360 --> 09:22.380] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I see.
[09:22.380 --> 09:23.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, they have a green light and a red light.
[09:23.960 --> 09:24.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[09:24.720 --> 09:29.400] [SPEAKER_07]: So you don't have this traffic jam problem that I have to suffer through every single day.
[09:29.480 --> 09:32.960] [SPEAKER_07]: And when you're trying to get two dogs through a turnstile at rush hour in the morning... Wait, wait, wait.
[09:32.960 --> 09:34.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you taking two dogs on the subway?
[09:34.560 --> 09:39.640] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, sometimes if it's raining or if it's extraordinarily cold out and I don't feel like walking, I just take my dogs on the subway.
[09:39.660 --> 09:40.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, first of all, you're not supposed to do that.
[09:40.980 --> 09:47.760] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think you should, you know, because every city we were in, people take their dogs on the train and the dogs behave themselves.
[09:48.080 --> 09:48.340] [SPEAKER_06]: I agree.
[09:48.520 --> 09:50.840] [SPEAKER_06]: But for some reason, the trains are a whole lot quieter.
[09:51.080 --> 09:52.160] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't get that either.
[09:52.160 --> 09:54.300] [SPEAKER_06]: Why are their trains so much quieter than our trains?
[09:54.480 --> 09:55.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's still trains.
[09:55.660 --> 09:56.300] [SPEAKER_06]: There's still tracks.
[09:56.500 --> 09:56.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Why?
[09:56.740 --> 09:57.260] [SPEAKER_06]: What's the difference?
[09:57.800 --> 09:58.120] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[09:58.260 --> 10:00.080] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you mean the actual noise from the trains?
[10:00.200 --> 10:01.820] [SPEAKER_07]: I thought you meant the chatter in the cars.
[10:01.980 --> 10:02.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because dogs don't like that.
[10:02.580 --> 10:06.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Dogs don't like loud trains like we have in this city.
[10:06.300 --> 10:06.520] [SPEAKER_07]: That's true.
[10:06.660 --> 10:10.660] [SPEAKER_07]: Jimmy does bark at the trains when they arrive, but once he's on board, he's pretty calm.
[10:10.740 --> 10:12.800] [SPEAKER_06]: He barks at buses and skateboarders, too.
[10:12.900 --> 10:13.320] [SPEAKER_07]: He does.
[10:13.460 --> 10:13.860] [SPEAKER_07]: That's true.
[10:14.100 --> 10:14.520] [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[10:14.680 --> 10:14.780] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[10:14.900 --> 10:17.060] [SPEAKER_08]: I think they're legal in New York if they fit in a bag.
[10:18.320 --> 10:18.780] [SPEAKER_07]: That's true.
[10:18.880 --> 10:21.840] [SPEAKER_07]: However, I do have to say, I have never... I should knock on wood.
[10:23.840 --> 10:27.160] [SPEAKER_07]: I have never had a problem bringing the dogs into the subway.
[10:27.280 --> 10:34.440] [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, I'll often stand right where the conductors line up with the car there, and I just wave at them.
[10:34.500 --> 10:35.040] [SPEAKER_07]: They wave at me.
[10:35.140 --> 10:37.100] [SPEAKER_07]: We get on the train, and there you go.
[10:37.860 --> 10:39.120] [SPEAKER_07]: I've never really had a problem.
[10:39.240 --> 10:39.860] [SPEAKER_07]: And I agree with this.
[10:39.960 --> 10:44.500] [SPEAKER_07]: I think this is a great form of civil disobedience in New York, taking your dog on the train.
[10:44.580 --> 10:45.680] [SPEAKER_07]: I want to see more people do it.
[10:46.200 --> 10:48.100] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not quite sure that's what I had in mind.
[10:48.140 --> 10:58.480] [SPEAKER_06]: I would just like to see things improve a little bit where technology makes more sense and, you know, where things, you know, are just easier to use.
[10:58.760 --> 11:02.880] [SPEAKER_06]: But I know, Kyle, when we were traveling, we had some issues as well.
[11:02.960 --> 11:03.680] [SPEAKER_06]: It wasn't all perfect.
[11:03.900 --> 11:04.240] [SPEAKER_08]: Sorry.
[11:04.340 --> 11:05.040] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just laughing.
[11:05.180 --> 11:07.380] [SPEAKER_08]: I know in Germany, you can buy a ticket for your dog.
[11:07.620 --> 11:08.120] [SPEAKER_08]: That's true.
[11:08.240 --> 11:09.060] [SPEAKER_08]: When you go on the train.
[11:09.200 --> 11:12.420] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think in England, too, you can... your dog... there are dog tickets.
[11:12.840 --> 11:14.380] [SPEAKER_08]: So I'm just pointing that out.
[11:14.480 --> 11:17.760] [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, it should be so comprehensive that it's not a problem.
[11:18.080 --> 11:19.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And yeah.
[11:20.340 --> 11:20.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[11:21.080 --> 11:24.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, anyway, so yeah, things were not perfect for us everywhere we went.
[11:25.880 --> 11:27.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes things didn't work.
[11:27.280 --> 11:27.860] [SPEAKER_08]: No, no.
[11:27.960 --> 11:34.520] [SPEAKER_08]: When I was translating all the messages on that machine, one of the things I was noticing was a dog ticket and check.
[11:34.620 --> 11:35.820] [SPEAKER_08]: No, that's not what we need.
[11:36.200 --> 11:37.300] [SPEAKER_06]: But we were able to do that.
[11:37.400 --> 11:39.200] [SPEAKER_06]: We were on a train that only spoke Polish and German.
[11:39.480 --> 11:39.840] [SPEAKER_06]: It was really cool.
[11:40.020 --> 11:41.560] [SPEAKER_06]: And we were able to buy a ticket on that train somehow.
[11:47.240 --> 11:48.200] [SPEAKER_08]: Translating app.
[11:49.000 --> 11:52.900] [SPEAKER_08]: So we could just basically watch all the options get translated in real time.
[11:53.080 --> 11:54.060] [SPEAKER_08]: That was pretty cool.
[11:54.440 --> 12:06.980] [SPEAKER_08]: A clever use of that so that when we were checked, we had the right zones and couldn't could get to where we needed to go precisely and not at a really high cost.
[12:07.640 --> 12:15.540] [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, what everything had a certain level of resistance, a little, a little bit of trouble, a little difficulty.
[12:16.820 --> 12:25.500] [SPEAKER_08]: That's part of, I think, the general thing that we like to talk about with adjusting and learning new systems when you're broad.
[12:25.500 --> 12:34.500] [SPEAKER_08]: If you make a game of it, I think you tend to build your skills and learning new systems and then being able to compare that stuff.
[12:34.620 --> 12:34.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Comparing.
[12:35.000 --> 12:36.100] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's the key.
[12:36.300 --> 12:43.540] [SPEAKER_06]: When you go places and you see how other people do it, instead of resisting, take notes and come back with those notes.
[12:43.900 --> 12:46.600] [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll find that you can apply things.
[12:46.740 --> 12:47.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Here's a great example.
[12:48.060 --> 12:49.480] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if people have noticed this.
[12:49.560 --> 12:56.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Inside the New York City subway, there's a unique system at play that only exists in one other part of the world.
[12:56.780 --> 13:01.200] [SPEAKER_06]: And we heard about this, didn't believe it, saw some videos of it on YouTube.
[13:01.460 --> 13:07.100] [SPEAKER_06]: But in Japan, there are train conductors and train engineers.
[13:07.440 --> 13:11.320] [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll notice for some reason, they're pointing at everything when they're moving the trains.
[13:13.600 --> 13:15.580] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like they're giving a tour to somebody.
[13:15.580 --> 13:16.720] [SPEAKER_06]: They keep pointing at things.
[13:17.140 --> 13:19.780] [SPEAKER_06]: And you wonder, what in God's name are they up to?
[13:20.180 --> 13:32.320] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it turns out that is a particular way of being able to pay attention to a task by pointing at an object as it appears, by expecting an object to be there, and by recognizing it.
[13:32.920 --> 13:36.320] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a particular type of training that they have in Japan.
[13:36.840 --> 13:51.540] [SPEAKER_06]: And at one point, one of the heads of the Transit Authority here in New York went to Japan, saw this, was so impressed by it, that he mandated that New York City transit employees, at least on the subway, do this whenever they pull into a station.
[13:51.640 --> 14:02.440] [SPEAKER_06]: So if you watch a train go into a station, and you see the conductor who is in the middle, you will see every time he or she will point their finger when the train arrives in the station.
[14:02.660 --> 14:08.900] [SPEAKER_06]: And they'll be pointing it at this little checked box that's in every station in the middle of the platform.
[14:09.440 --> 14:11.060] [SPEAKER_06]: When the train pulls in, they point.
[14:11.180 --> 14:15.140] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a way of being alert, of kind of checking in.
[14:15.700 --> 14:25.020] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's really, it's an example of how you can take something from another place, another culture, apply it, and see things improve.
[14:25.500 --> 14:31.420] [SPEAKER_07]: When you told me about this, when you first learned about it, I thought you were just, you know, completely lying to me.
[14:31.580 --> 14:35.900] [SPEAKER_07]: And that, you know, it's one of your, you know, your practical jokes, something else is going to happen entirely.
[14:36.100 --> 14:37.900] [SPEAKER_07]: But it is amazing to see this.
[14:38.000 --> 14:39.100] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's like clockwork.
[14:39.240 --> 14:46.700] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, some stations, however, if they have trains that have eight cars and 10 cars, there's two of those, those checkered boxes in near the middle.
[14:47.000 --> 14:56.200] [SPEAKER_06]: No, there should be only one, because if trainers, you'll see a little rectangular sign that says eight and 10, telling the driver where to stop, depending on how many cars he has.
[14:56.580 --> 14:58.800] [SPEAKER_06]: But the middle of the train should always be in the same place.
[14:58.920 --> 15:00.000] [SPEAKER_06]: So there should only be one of those.
[15:00.200 --> 15:01.860] [SPEAKER_07]: I've seen stations where there's actually two.
[15:02.040 --> 15:02.240] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[15:02.400 --> 15:08.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think at Times Square, it might be the ACE might have two boxes in there.
[15:08.580 --> 15:09.960] [SPEAKER_07]: But we'll check it after the show.
[15:10.060 --> 15:10.860] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, let's do it.
[15:10.920 --> 15:12.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Let's, let's, let's validate this.
[15:12.540 --> 15:14.340] [SPEAKER_07]: So we'll, we'll settle this once and for all.
[15:14.400 --> 15:15.440] [SPEAKER_07]: Call me a liar on the air.
[15:15.920 --> 15:16.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[15:16.500 --> 15:16.940] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, go ahead.
[15:17.020 --> 15:17.940] [SPEAKER_06]: I've called you worse.
[15:18.060 --> 15:18.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I know that.
[15:19.380 --> 15:20.980] [SPEAKER_07]: But it really is amazing though.
[15:21.180 --> 15:36.880] [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, practically, I mean, let's say, you know, this is something really good to know, this little bit of trivia, because let's say you're, you're feeling somewhat unsafe and you're waiting for the train at two o'clock in the morning, you might want to be right underneath that particular box that has the checkered pattern on it,
[15:36.940 --> 15:39.840] [SPEAKER_07]: because you know, that's right where the conductor is going to be when he pulls up.
[15:39.900 --> 15:48.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Then you wait in the off hour waiting area with the orange that they have on every stop as well, which should encompass that, that particular little plaid thing.
[15:48.660 --> 15:49.600] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, that's right.
[15:49.760 --> 15:49.860] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[15:50.100 --> 15:51.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, that's one example.
[15:51.360 --> 15:55.400] [SPEAKER_06]: There, there are so many other things that you notice when you travel and you should bring it back.
[15:55.560 --> 16:04.840] [SPEAKER_06]: There's always ways of, of improving not only technology, but our everyday life, you know, how people treat each other, how people get through the day.
[16:05.720 --> 16:12.540] [SPEAKER_06]: And I, you know, I think this is one of many examples when you go away for a few weeks now, Mitch, you're constantly on the road.
[16:12.540 --> 16:15.000] [SPEAKER_06]: But in fact, it's rare that we see you here.
[16:15.200 --> 16:17.620] [SPEAKER_06]: Not that this is your home, but it's close.
[16:18.120 --> 16:19.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Where, where is your home anyway?
[16:20.460 --> 16:21.560] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you, do you even know?
[16:22.180 --> 16:23.140] [SPEAKER_03]: Where the heart is?
[16:23.340 --> 16:24.300] [SPEAKER_03]: I travel a lot.
[16:24.480 --> 16:28.100] [SPEAKER_03]: I do have an apartment in San Francisco, so I guess I can say I live there.
[16:28.240 --> 16:30.300] [SPEAKER_03]: I also have an apartment in Berlin now.
[16:30.440 --> 16:30.840] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, good.
[16:31.020 --> 16:32.140] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess I can say I live there too.
[16:32.420 --> 16:34.700] [SPEAKER_06]: So just accumulate apartments as you travel.
[16:35.220 --> 16:42.280] [SPEAKER_03]: If I could afford it, maybe I'd have more, but my apartments are actually quite inexpensive, so I can afford the two.
[16:42.920 --> 16:45.760] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I'm traveling most of the time, though.
[16:45.920 --> 16:49.000] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been in San Francisco in 2018, only six weeks.
[16:49.600 --> 16:52.500] [SPEAKER_03]: And in Berlin, about two months.
[16:52.840 --> 16:53.060] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[16:53.300 --> 16:58.220] [SPEAKER_06]: And we saw you at the Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin, in Leipzig.
[16:58.420 --> 16:58.980] [SPEAKER_06]: In Leipzig.
[16:58.980 --> 17:03.160] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, so how did, how did this year's compare as far as you're concerned?
[17:03.440 --> 17:06.000] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my, my perspective is rather limited.
[17:06.240 --> 17:18.440] [SPEAKER_03]: I organized the rather large now hardware hacking area, and that was pretty much home for five days, setting up and then cleaning up surrounding the conference.
[17:18.440 --> 17:20.820] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was amazing.
[17:20.820 --> 17:32.860] [SPEAKER_03]: We had well over 2,000 people who soldered there during the conference, and most of those people had never done it before, including a whole group of four- to six-year-olds.
[17:33.020 --> 17:33.760] [SPEAKER_06]: I saw that.
[17:33.820 --> 17:38.680] [SPEAKER_06]: I walked by, and I saw Mitch teaching a bunch of really tiny kids how to solder.
[17:39.060 --> 17:51.120] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's really adorable when these little kids are holding soldering irons and making, uh, these, these kids were all making these little blinky light things that I designed so people could learn to solder.
[17:51.500 --> 17:54.300] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, yeah, and everyone gets to play with it afterwards.
[17:54.960 --> 18:10.860] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so, yeah, from my perspective, this was the best one ever, and they seem to get better every year, even though, you know, some people miss the earlier days when there were only, that's a weird word, only 2,000 people at these, uh, Congress, uh, events.
[18:11.380 --> 18:12.240] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um...
[18:12.240 --> 18:17.380] [SPEAKER_06]: I actually am one of those people that missed that, because, um, kind of like HOPE, you know, we're at a certain size.
[18:17.380 --> 18:21.100] [SPEAKER_06]: When you get much bigger than that, and they're, what, like, 18,000 now?
[18:21.580 --> 18:25.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, it's, it's still amazing, it's still an awesome event, but it's not the same event.
[18:25.840 --> 18:28.100] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's, it's, it's lost something along the way.
[18:28.420 --> 18:30.980] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it loses some things, and it gains some things.
[18:31.260 --> 18:45.300] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I remember the discussions around that, when it was getting too crowded for the venue that, um, it started it, uh, well, that, uh, when I first went with 2,000 people in Berlin, and then it outgrew that place, and we're wondering, well, should we grow?
[18:45.700 --> 18:46.960] [SPEAKER_03]: Should we stay the same?
[18:47.360 --> 18:48.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, what do we lose?
[18:48.860 --> 18:49.480] [SPEAKER_03]: What do we gain?
[18:49.720 --> 18:59.960] [SPEAKER_03]: But there are so many people who can benefit from going to these events, and we didn't want to actually just limit it to just the people who'd already gone, and make it somewhat elitist.
[19:00.700 --> 19:12.160] [SPEAKER_08]: I think, I think the, um, growth is actually, they're growing into the, the spaces that were quite a bit larger than, um, the second spot in Hamburg.
[19:12.600 --> 19:22.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, and so, yeah, like, once you get, um, you increase your size, of course, there's growing room, and getting into that, and particularly the art and design, I think, was really beautiful.
[19:23.300 --> 19:34.300] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, there was, uh, all kinds of, uh, different themes in different areas, and they're definitely filling out the space that they're, um, currently running the event in.
[19:34.300 --> 19:40.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Like, there was a particular, uh, place that had, uh, uh, no borders bar, which was beautiful.
[19:40.600 --> 19:54.940] [SPEAKER_08]: It looked like a checkpoint, and, um, they had, like, a little hut and, uh, several little gates and stuff like that, just to make it feel like it's, uh, from some kind of, uh, abandoned, uh, border entry point.
[19:55.100 --> 20:04.600] [SPEAKER_08]: Little, uh, artistic things like that, I think, took a while as, um, as these kinds of events grow to, um, to actually take advantage of.
[20:04.720 --> 20:10.560] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, once you get a new and larger space, you're always thinking about how, how can people enjoy it more?
[20:10.660 --> 20:15.020] [SPEAKER_08]: How many, how can you get more hacking going on in any one, uh, square meter?
[20:15.280 --> 20:25.580] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's, it's really brilliant to see, see that evolve slowly and, and see the kind of expression that goes on with that art and, uh, and other production.
[20:30.920 --> 20:34.840] [SPEAKER_06]: 29th and 30th, um, and, uh, currently it's in Leipzig.
[20:34.960 --> 20:36.300] [SPEAKER_06]: It was in Hamburg before that.
[20:36.740 --> 20:41.920] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I don't know if they can go back to Hamburg because they've grown bigger than the massive space they had there.
[20:42.020 --> 20:46.480] [SPEAKER_06]: That space is being, uh, reconstructed, but I don't know when they're finished, if it's going to be big enough.
[20:46.660 --> 20:49.280] [SPEAKER_06]: I do know also they're, they're having a camp this summer.
[20:49.680 --> 20:50.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that right, Mitch?
[20:50.700 --> 20:50.940] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[20:51.320 --> 20:56.720] [SPEAKER_03]: It'll be, excuse me, it'll be, um, uh, August 19th to 25th during that week.
[20:56.720 --> 21:04.040] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, probably Thursday to Sunday in there, and it happens every four years, and those are amazing.
[21:04.360 --> 21:09.640] [SPEAKER_03]: As great as the annual Congress is, the camps are just over the top, wonderful.
[21:10.340 --> 21:19.120] [SPEAKER_06]: It used to be the camps were bigger, but I think now the Congress is bigger, uh, and, uh, you can't fit that many people outside anymore.
[21:19.440 --> 21:19.980] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[21:20.280 --> 21:25.380] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the camp, uh, the discussion after the last one, uh, it had 5,000 last time.
[21:25.380 --> 21:30.680] [SPEAKER_03]: The discussion was maybe to make it 7,000 cause that might fit, but I'm not sure what was decided.
[21:30.980 --> 21:48.280] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, that's a lot of people, but, um, it's, uh, everyone's there, you know, unlike when it's, uh, a big event in a city where people can come and go, uh, there's no, you know, barbed wire to keep anyone in or anything, but, uh, but once you're there, there's not really anywhere to go really.
[21:48.280 --> 21:59.380] [SPEAKER_03]: So everyone's just there, they're there for the duration and everyone, um, adds their like life to it in this place way away from the day to day, which makes it quite magical.
[21:59.560 --> 22:00.440] [SPEAKER_06]: We had a lot of fun though.
[22:00.620 --> 22:03.420] [SPEAKER_06]: When we were in Leipzig, we were, uh, just wandering around.
[22:03.520 --> 22:06.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, one thing though, we, we, we took the tram into town.
[22:07.140 --> 22:19.480] [SPEAKER_06]: They keep the trams running around the clock, but we discovered a slight flaw in the system, uh, because we took the tram into, into town to get food away from the venue, uh, which, you know, we're, we, we, we do no matter where we go.
[22:19.680 --> 22:28.840] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and then we discovered, uh, while the trams were running and taking people into town all night long, getting back seemed impossible.
[22:28.840 --> 22:31.480] [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, it was impossible because nobody knew how to do it.
[22:31.740 --> 22:33.480] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we were asking tram drivers.
[22:33.540 --> 22:37.580] [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, we saw the trams arrive from the camp and let all these people out.
[22:37.580 --> 22:42.580] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and apparently we were some of the few people that at midnight wanted to go back.
[22:42.760 --> 22:45.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so we were asking the drivers, how do we get back?
[22:45.740 --> 22:58.240] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, they, they had no idea because they were taking their tram into the garage and, uh, uh, nobody could tell us how to actually, obviously they had to go back there at some point to pick up more people, but not the ones that we were seeing.
[22:58.560 --> 23:03.240] [SPEAKER_06]: And we just eventually had to give up and not go back that night, which was kind of sad.
[23:03.740 --> 23:04.140] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[23:04.140 --> 23:04.260] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[23:04.420 --> 23:20.460] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's, uh, yeah, there's a special deal with, uh, the CCC cause there's 17,000 people invading their town, uh, that the transit system would go all night throughout the duration of the Congress.
[23:20.460 --> 23:21.800] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's really cool.
[23:21.920 --> 23:26.960] [SPEAKER_03]: But evidently they didn't communicate that too well to all of the late night drivers.
[23:26.960 --> 23:27.520] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[23:27.620 --> 23:32.600] [SPEAKER_08]: It was, uh, one disappointing thing is on, I think like Saturday night and, um, yeah.
[23:32.660 --> 23:38.840] [SPEAKER_08]: So if you left, there was like this blackout period that was not either well publicized or not anticipated at all.
[23:39.160 --> 23:44.440] [SPEAKER_08]: But, um, I'm sure someone would say that, you know, we should have looked at some wiki or something.
[23:44.580 --> 23:44.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[23:44.800 --> 23:49.720] [SPEAKER_06]: Or it's possible there was a way to get there, but we didn't know what it was and we couldn't find any documentation about it.
[23:49.780 --> 23:53.380] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, uh, that's, you know, what happens in things like, occasions like this.
[23:53.380 --> 23:55.400] [SPEAKER_07]: I had something similar happen to me with trams.
[23:55.580 --> 23:58.180] [SPEAKER_07]: I can't believe it was about 20 years ago in, in Prague.
[23:58.680 --> 24:04.360] [SPEAKER_07]: I had, uh, taken the, you know, the, uh, the subway, the Metro down towards the, uh, the Charles bridge.
[24:04.760 --> 24:15.900] [SPEAKER_07]: It, and then the, the Metro shut off at midnight and I had to take trams back, but getting back to where I was staying in this kind of off the beaten path, cheap area of Prague 20 years ago was just next to impossible.
[24:16.040 --> 24:16.980] [SPEAKER_07]: Nobody knew how to do it.
[24:17.160 --> 24:19.200] [SPEAKER_07]: Like literally nobody, the same thing, tram drivers.
[24:19.380 --> 24:23.540] [SPEAKER_07]: So I just started walking because I knew it was sort of this way and up a hill.
[24:23.580 --> 24:27.340] [SPEAKER_07]: It started to get really sketchy and I felt unsafe.
[24:27.640 --> 24:32.480] [SPEAKER_07]: So I went back and something kind of incredible happened to me as I was walking back.
[24:32.480 --> 24:35.920] [SPEAKER_07]: I went down this hill and I saw this gigantic American flag.
[24:36.040 --> 24:39.720] [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds like this jingoistic story now, but it wound up being the American embassy.
[24:40.140 --> 24:42.260] [SPEAKER_07]: And I knocked on the door of the American embassy.
[24:42.260 --> 24:43.540] [SPEAKER_06]: You knocked on the door of the American embassy?
[24:43.700 --> 24:43.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[24:43.940 --> 24:45.820] [SPEAKER_06]: You get lost in Prague and you go to the American embassy?
[24:45.820 --> 24:46.840] [SPEAKER_07]: I went to the American Embassy.
[24:46.980 --> 24:47.040] [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[24:47.280 --> 24:50.240] [SPEAKER_07]: It happened to be the 4th of July, that same night.
[24:50.360 --> 24:51.720] [SPEAKER_07]: Did you just realize that then?
[24:51.880 --> 24:53.140] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I knew it was the 4th of July.
[24:53.220 --> 24:54.500] [SPEAKER_07]: And I said, well, there's the American Embassy.
[24:54.500 --> 24:55.520] [SPEAKER_07]: Why don't I knock on the door?
[24:55.580 --> 24:56.580] [SPEAKER_07]: So I knocked on the door.
[24:57.080 --> 24:58.380] [SPEAKER_07]: It was actually a little buzzer.
[24:58.500 --> 24:59.120] [SPEAKER_07]: It was an intercom.
[24:59.260 --> 25:00.680] [SPEAKER_06]: Is there a fife and drum in the room?
[25:01.440 --> 25:01.900] [SPEAKER_07]: I know.
[25:02.140 --> 25:02.620] [SPEAKER_07]: No, keep going.
[25:04.340 --> 25:06.560] [SPEAKER_07]: Somebody basically said, you know, yes, can I help you?
[25:06.880 --> 25:08.880] [SPEAKER_07]: With a Southern American accent.
[25:09.720 --> 25:11.160] [SPEAKER_07]: And I said, yeah, I'm an American.
[25:11.160 --> 25:12.520] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm thoroughly lost in Prague.
[25:12.920 --> 25:15.660] [SPEAKER_07]: And then this guy tells me, well, he just got there two weeks ago.
[25:15.820 --> 25:16.640] [SPEAKER_07]: He's with the Marines.
[25:17.320 --> 25:18.280] [SPEAKER_07]: And I said, well, come on.
[25:18.400 --> 25:19.460] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I'm an American.
[25:19.620 --> 25:19.900] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm lost.
[25:19.980 --> 25:22.680] [SPEAKER_07]: There's got to be somebody over there who knows how I can get back.
[25:23.600 --> 25:25.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And finally, he opened up the door.
[25:25.420 --> 25:26.640] [SPEAKER_07]: And these Marines came over to me.
[25:26.660 --> 25:28.840] [SPEAKER_07]: And they said, you know, we don't know how the hell to get up there.
[25:29.100 --> 25:30.200] [SPEAKER_07]: But it's the 4th of July.
[25:30.320 --> 25:30.900] [SPEAKER_07]: We're in here.
[25:30.900 --> 25:31.500] [SPEAKER_07]: We're partying.
[25:31.600 --> 25:32.380] [SPEAKER_07]: We're having a few drinks.
[25:32.440 --> 25:33.320] [SPEAKER_07]: And we're going to go out afterwards.
[25:33.440 --> 25:34.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Why don't you just come out with us?
[25:34.540 --> 25:39.200] [SPEAKER_07]: I stayed out with these Marines partying until 7 in the morning when the train reopened.
[25:39.260 --> 25:40.220] [SPEAKER_07]: And I took the subway back.
[25:40.980 --> 25:42.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Did they ask you to show any ID?
[25:42.580 --> 25:43.480] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you could have been.
[25:44.000 --> 25:44.760] [SPEAKER_07]: I could have been.
[25:44.940 --> 25:45.460] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, exactly.
[25:45.460 --> 25:47.480] [SPEAKER_07]: You could have been French or something.
[25:47.660 --> 25:48.540] [SPEAKER_07]: This was 19...
[25:48.540 --> 25:49.540] [SPEAKER_06]: There's all kinds of possibilities.
[25:49.820 --> 25:50.420] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, this is true.
[25:50.480 --> 25:51.260] [SPEAKER_07]: I could have been Canadian.
[25:51.440 --> 25:51.800] [SPEAKER_07]: That's true.
[25:52.000 --> 25:54.880] [SPEAKER_07]: This is 1998 when people, you know, trusted each other.
[25:55.980 --> 25:57.060] [SPEAKER_07]: But it was pretty amazing.
[25:57.100 --> 26:00.660] [SPEAKER_07]: And it totally changed my conception of Marines at that point.
[26:00.740 --> 26:03.640] [SPEAKER_07]: That was my first real experience in hanging out with U.S.
[26:03.760 --> 26:03.960] [SPEAKER_07]: Marines.
[26:04.260 --> 26:07.180] [SPEAKER_07]: And it was in Prague and on the 4th of July.
[26:07.440 --> 26:12.320] [SPEAKER_07]: And because of the tram situation, I had this great experience that I can now talk about on the radio.
[26:12.720 --> 26:13.760] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not about Marines.
[26:13.940 --> 26:15.440] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah, we can all hang out with Marines.
[26:15.440 --> 26:17.200] [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, it's about tramps.
[26:17.380 --> 26:19.680] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's about finding your own way.
[26:20.640 --> 26:22.560] [SPEAKER_06]: Without having to go to your embassy.
[26:23.620 --> 26:27.240] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, for God's sake, you were just lost in a city one night.
[26:27.240 --> 26:29.020] [SPEAKER_06]: All you had to do was keep walking.
[26:29.340 --> 26:30.180] [SPEAKER_06]: You would have made it.
[26:30.260 --> 26:30.840] [SPEAKER_06]: You really would have.
[26:31.140 --> 26:32.660] [SPEAKER_07]: But I wouldn't have had this story.
[26:32.880 --> 26:34.040] [SPEAKER_07]: I had such a great time.
[26:34.160 --> 26:38.820] [SPEAKER_07]: It was so much more fun than wandering around aimlessly in sketchy areas of Prague 20 years ago.
[26:38.820 --> 26:44.860] [SPEAKER_08]: So, with regard to the camps, it is certainly a totally different mode.
[26:45.060 --> 26:51.340] [SPEAKER_08]: You have all this stuff and space and people bringing basically a bit of their lives, as Mitch said.
[26:51.520 --> 26:57.880] [SPEAKER_08]: And that in and of itself is great because you can just survive together.
[26:57.880 --> 27:03.340] [SPEAKER_08]: And it is much, much smaller by comparison to the Congress events.
[27:03.340 --> 27:16.900] [SPEAKER_08]: And I would add that, like, the size of it being with so many people in proximity and, like, there are definite benefits and drawbacks that, like, you're kind of experiencing all at once.
[27:16.900 --> 27:29.720] [SPEAKER_08]: And there's this incredible amount of infrastructure and capacity to host all these people who want to hear interesting talks and then, you know, congregate and bump into one another.
[27:29.840 --> 27:31.860] [SPEAKER_08]: But it is so big and so spread out.
[27:31.860 --> 27:35.100] [SPEAKER_08]: You can see all the incredible projects people have.
[27:35.220 --> 27:37.380] [SPEAKER_08]: And people are quite busy while they're there.
[27:37.560 --> 27:39.700] [SPEAKER_08]: And different regions of the world are represented.
[27:40.020 --> 27:43.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And different projects you can get interested in.
[27:43.100 --> 27:48.780] [SPEAKER_08]: But you're really out in this whole, like, universe of different things going on.
[27:48.860 --> 27:51.040] [SPEAKER_08]: It's very hard to bump into someone twice.
[27:51.580 --> 28:03.020] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's very awkward, I think, if you don't just open yourself up to just maybe bumping into something interesting and consuming yourself with that for a little bit.
[28:03.520 --> 28:04.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Without calling the Marines.
[28:05.220 --> 28:07.900] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, exactly.
[28:07.900 --> 28:11.860] [SPEAKER_08]: But there's just so much there that you can't really see it all.
[28:11.860 --> 28:18.240] [SPEAKER_08]: So, like, I found myself bumping into a bunch of people picking out a PDP...
[28:18.240 --> 28:19.660] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was a PDP-8.
[28:19.920 --> 28:28.760] [SPEAKER_08]: There were two of them at the Congress in the same area as the hardware hacking area, which itself was all arranged in a circle.
[28:28.760 --> 28:31.260] [SPEAKER_08]: And everything kind of went out from the center.
[28:32.240 --> 28:36.660] [SPEAKER_08]: And, yeah, I just bumped into that stuff and got interested in that.
[28:36.660 --> 28:45.380] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, who knew that that kind of equipment was, you know, alongside all these other people doing so much stuff.
[28:45.560 --> 28:48.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Dance floors and all these kinds of sculptures.
[28:48.800 --> 28:57.680] [SPEAKER_08]: And a lot of it was kind of arranged with these dividers, kind of like big cubicles, which I thought was kind of interesting.
[28:58.140 --> 29:01.880] [SPEAKER_08]: Because you have so many different things going on and so much stimulation.
[29:01.880 --> 29:06.520] [SPEAKER_08]: It's kind of good to kind of separate a little bit and have different areas and zones.
[29:06.820 --> 29:09.960] [SPEAKER_08]: But it really is so massive and so much...
[29:10.460 --> 29:13.920] [SPEAKER_08]: It's such a confluence of activity that it's hard to just grasp.
[29:14.100 --> 29:18.700] [SPEAKER_08]: I think at one point, both E and I got a little, like, overwhelmed.
[29:18.700 --> 29:23.980] [SPEAKER_08]: And we just, like, kind of had to calm down with the stimulus because there's so many lights.
[29:24.240 --> 29:25.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we ran screaming around for about half an hour.
[29:25.900 --> 29:27.200] [SPEAKER_06]: That was us, wasn't it?
[29:27.220 --> 29:27.760] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we couldn't stop.
[29:27.860 --> 29:30.220] [SPEAKER_08]: No, we were running in circles and then we ran out.
[29:30.240 --> 29:32.060] [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of toddlers that got too much sugar.
[29:32.440 --> 29:33.080] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.
[29:33.080 --> 29:37.100] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was, like, a few two scooters, like, crossed us.
[29:37.700 --> 29:37.980] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[29:38.120 --> 29:38.940] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the other thing.
[29:38.980 --> 29:40.640] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was late at night.
[29:40.700 --> 29:42.300] [SPEAKER_06]: It was after midnight.
[29:42.640 --> 29:44.040] [SPEAKER_06]: And all these people...
[29:44.040 --> 29:44.660] [SPEAKER_06]: Remember this, Mitch?
[29:44.660 --> 29:49.640] [SPEAKER_06]: All these people going by and all kinds of wheeled devices, scooters, bicycles, unicycles.
[29:51.260 --> 29:53.000] [SPEAKER_06]: What are those things that burst into flame?
[29:53.440 --> 29:54.480] [SPEAKER_06]: The hoverboards.
[29:54.660 --> 29:55.720] [SPEAKER_08]: Hoverboards were everywhere.
[29:55.740 --> 30:00.820] [SPEAKER_08]: I saw a kid riding a hoverboard sideways, which I'd never seen before.
[30:00.940 --> 30:01.860] [SPEAKER_08]: He was just sitting on it.
[30:01.860 --> 30:03.140] [SPEAKER_06]: It's dim lighting.
[30:03.480 --> 30:05.260] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a staircase, for God's sake.
[30:05.260 --> 30:06.660] [SPEAKER_06]: You can go right off the edge.
[30:06.760 --> 30:09.440] [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, they're all just basically fine.
[30:09.560 --> 30:13.060] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's an amazing thing to see.
[30:13.060 --> 30:17.620] [SPEAKER_06]: But what I really like to see with these hacker events, I like to see more of them in different places.
[30:17.900 --> 30:20.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we learned of some that we hadn't heard about before.
[30:21.300 --> 30:21.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Is there...
[30:21.980 --> 30:24.080] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a camp, I think, in Denmark or something?
[30:24.140 --> 30:24.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[30:24.400 --> 30:26.120] [SPEAKER_06]: All sorts of things we've never heard of.
[30:26.180 --> 30:26.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Foreign hack.
[30:26.900 --> 30:30.980] [SPEAKER_06]: And we need to compile this information and spread it around.
[30:31.100 --> 30:32.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Because, yeah, the Germans have perfected it.
[30:32.820 --> 30:33.720] [SPEAKER_06]: No question about that.
[30:33.900 --> 30:36.960] [SPEAKER_06]: But there are so many other countries that need to be doing things as well.
[30:36.980 --> 30:38.200] [SPEAKER_06]: I want to see more things in Poland.
[30:38.520 --> 30:41.360] [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, we went to the Krakow 2600 meeting.
[30:41.540 --> 30:41.780] [SPEAKER_08]: We did.
[30:41.960 --> 30:42.760] [SPEAKER_06]: That was awesome.
[30:42.760 --> 30:43.740] [SPEAKER_08]: It was great.
[30:44.060 --> 30:47.920] [SPEAKER_08]: It was way up in this old building and a bunch of restaurants.
[30:48.500 --> 30:49.480] [SPEAKER_06]: 45 minutes to find it.
[30:49.480 --> 30:51.900] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we had to make all kinds of...
[30:51.900 --> 30:54.300] [SPEAKER_08]: Send up flares and all this stuff just to find it.
[30:54.400 --> 30:57.500] [SPEAKER_08]: But it was in kind of a VR cafe.
[30:57.940 --> 31:00.020] [SPEAKER_08]: Kind of an Internet cafe.
[31:00.240 --> 31:01.580] [SPEAKER_08]: But it was in the very top of a building.
[31:01.580 --> 31:02.560] [SPEAKER_08]: But we didn't know where...
[31:02.560 --> 31:04.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, here's where we can maybe do a better job.
[31:05.420 --> 31:05.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Addresses.
[31:06.540 --> 31:07.820] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, numbers...
[31:07.820 --> 31:09.260] [SPEAKER_06]: There's an infinite number of numbers.
[31:09.260 --> 31:14.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so when you give a number of an address, it doesn't have to encompass the entire block.
[31:14.440 --> 31:16.600] [SPEAKER_06]: You can have every building have its own unique number.
[31:17.040 --> 31:18.860] [SPEAKER_06]: And they don't do that in some cities.
[31:19.020 --> 31:22.680] [SPEAKER_06]: They just have, you know, number three on a particular block.
[31:22.680 --> 31:25.760] [SPEAKER_06]: And that encompasses about 50 different stores.
[31:25.780 --> 31:27.660] [SPEAKER_06]: And that makes it very hard to find things.
[31:27.920 --> 31:34.900] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was an old factory that had been repurposed and subdivided into all these little...
[31:34.900 --> 31:36.260] [SPEAKER_06]: You can add numbers later.
[31:36.480 --> 31:37.840] [SPEAKER_06]: There's all sorts of things you can do.
[31:37.940 --> 31:39.660] [SPEAKER_08]: They have not quite got to that part of it yet.
[31:39.660 --> 31:41.700] [SPEAKER_08]: Which is why I think it was so hard to navigate.
[31:41.980 --> 31:43.220] [SPEAKER_08]: But it was great to see...
[31:43.220 --> 31:43.760] [SPEAKER_08]: Eventually, we got the...
[31:43.760 --> 31:45.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Great to see that meeting and to talk to people there.
[31:46.080 --> 31:48.500] [SPEAKER_06]: And to realize there's all kinds of meetings in the East.
[31:48.580 --> 31:51.300] [SPEAKER_06]: In Russia, there's a lot of 2600 meetings.
[31:52.160 --> 31:53.900] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's very inspirational.
[31:54.080 --> 31:55.820] [SPEAKER_06]: It makes you want to do more here as well.
[31:56.100 --> 31:56.220] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[31:56.360 --> 31:59.820] [SPEAKER_08]: And hearing about all that stuff, we're trying to organize it.
[31:59.880 --> 32:06.640] [SPEAKER_08]: I think we want to publish and get more listings of these kinds of meetings and check in with people.
[32:06.760 --> 32:09.620] [SPEAKER_08]: That's another big thing is, you know, seeing who's out there.
[32:09.740 --> 32:10.360] [SPEAKER_08]: Seeing what they're doing.
[32:10.680 --> 32:12.860] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, letting them know we're listening.
[32:12.860 --> 32:18.720] [SPEAKER_08]: And we want to share their activities and the kind of community they're creating.
[32:18.720 --> 32:27.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, I think you are definitely doing as much work in the same spirit, Mitch, with all of your travels and so on.
[32:27.780 --> 32:27.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[32:27.860 --> 32:32.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Tell us someplace you've been that we don't know about, that we've never been to.
[32:32.180 --> 32:39.920] [SPEAKER_06]: A hacker event or a hacker space or a meeting or something in a country that maybe we haven't been talking about a whole lot.
[32:41.900 --> 32:46.840] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been to a couple of places over the last year that I've never been before.
[32:48.880 --> 32:50.460] [SPEAKER_03]: Poland is one of them.
[32:50.780 --> 32:58.540] [SPEAKER_03]: And I did a small tour of a bunch of cities in Poland and visited hacker spaces and all of them.
[32:58.700 --> 33:01.780] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's some really cool communities in Poland.
[33:01.780 --> 33:07.560] [SPEAKER_03]: And in times like this, community of like-minded people is very important.
[33:08.080 --> 33:14.300] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, I went to Israel for the first time, hanging out in a hacker space in Tel Aviv.
[33:14.460 --> 33:16.560] [SPEAKER_03]: I was a hacker in residence there for a month.
[33:16.880 --> 33:23.340] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a place called TAMI, T-A-M-I, Tel Aviv Makers International.
[33:23.340 --> 33:26.160] [SPEAKER_03]: And a fantastic community there.
[33:26.340 --> 33:33.320] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just really wonderful to be there and surrounded by who knows what's going on in the rest of Israel.
[33:33.320 --> 33:39.000] [SPEAKER_03]: But here's a community of people who support each other and teach and learn like in any other hacker space.
[33:39.820 --> 33:44.660] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, this year, I went to...
[33:44.660 --> 33:52.400] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, a month ago, I was in Dubai, which is a place I was quite apprehensive of going.
[33:52.400 --> 33:53.880] [SPEAKER_06]: What's the hacker community like there?
[33:55.600 --> 33:56.760] [SPEAKER_03]: There isn't one.
[33:57.060 --> 33:57.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, all right.
[33:58.220 --> 34:01.260] [SPEAKER_03]: But perhaps this is the beginning of starting one.
[34:01.380 --> 34:01.820] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[34:02.680 --> 34:04.640] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Dubai is...
[34:04.640 --> 34:05.740] [SPEAKER_06]: There are definitely hackers there.
[34:05.860 --> 34:06.940] [SPEAKER_06]: There's no question about that.
[34:07.120 --> 34:10.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, not necessarily in my definition of the word, but...
[34:10.740 --> 34:13.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they exist, whether they are able to exist openly.
[34:14.120 --> 34:16.480] [SPEAKER_06]: But there are people with hacker mindsets everywhere.
[34:16.680 --> 34:17.620] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, absolutely.
[34:17.620 --> 34:18.980] [SPEAKER_03]: There are humans everywhere.
[34:18.980 --> 34:23.260] [SPEAKER_03]: And Dubai is not a place where you walk around and you're feeling oppressed.
[34:23.340 --> 34:27.780] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a place where we read and hear about oppression there.
[34:28.020 --> 34:34.400] [SPEAKER_03]: Like a friend of a friend talked about their friend visiting to me before I went.
[34:34.400 --> 34:37.840] [SPEAKER_03]: And they were arrested for kissing someone in a taxi cab.
[34:38.320 --> 34:43.860] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's not the kind of story that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about going to Dubai.
[34:43.860 --> 34:48.480] [SPEAKER_03]: But evidently, it's a little bit different there.
[34:50.640 --> 35:01.780] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's certainly different there than what I imagine, you know, a theocratic state where people get arrested for kissing and where it's illegal to be gay, which, you know, kind of illegal to be me.
[35:02.000 --> 35:07.040] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I'd been to Israel and there's a stamp in my passport from Israel.
[35:07.040 --> 35:08.600] [SPEAKER_03]: What's that going to be like at the border?
[35:08.840 --> 35:11.260] [SPEAKER_03]: It turned out that none of this mattered at all.
[35:11.780 --> 35:14.880] [SPEAKER_03]: If I went around with a placard yelling it, maybe it would have mattered.
[35:15.060 --> 35:20.540] [SPEAKER_03]: But it seems like the authorities, as long as they can turn a blind eye, they will.
[35:21.200 --> 35:22.800] [SPEAKER_03]: That's sort of the impression I get.
[35:23.060 --> 35:32.360] [SPEAKER_03]: And everyone, regardless of what they were wearing, the traditional garb or modern, was just warm and friendly and open.
[35:33.020 --> 35:36.160] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was with a conference called Hack in the Box.
[35:36.500 --> 35:37.540] [SPEAKER_03]: And I went there to...
[35:37.540 --> 35:37.920] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, I remember that.
[35:38.180 --> 35:43.660] [SPEAKER_03]: And I've been to their conferences in Amsterdam, pretty much all of them over the last 10 years.
[35:43.680 --> 35:43.840] [SPEAKER_03]: Malaysia, too.
[35:44.020 --> 35:45.000] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you been to the one in Malaysia?
[35:45.180 --> 35:45.780] [SPEAKER_03]: I have not.
[35:46.020 --> 35:47.740] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's where it started.
[35:48.720 --> 35:50.580] [SPEAKER_03]: But they don't do it there anymore.
[35:51.060 --> 35:52.340] [SPEAKER_03]: And there was one in Beijing.
[35:52.600 --> 35:55.700] [SPEAKER_03]: And I went to that one before my hacker trip to China.
[35:55.700 --> 36:05.980] [SPEAKER_06]: So was there ever a place that you went to, either to visit hackerspaces or teach people how to solder, that you felt trepidation, that you thought, maybe this isn't such a good idea?
[36:06.280 --> 36:07.740] [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe you were surprised.
[36:08.020 --> 36:13.220] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's been very few places I've been in the world where I just didn't like being there.
[36:13.740 --> 36:19.620] [SPEAKER_03]: I was in Egypt in 2011, just a few months after Mubarak was booted.
[36:19.620 --> 36:22.300] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was a fascinating place to be.
[36:23.320 --> 36:28.760] [SPEAKER_03]: The culture was, I think, at the peak of optimism for decades after.
[36:29.060 --> 36:34.800] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was a truly oppressive place, in part paid for by our tax money.
[36:34.940 --> 36:36.660] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's another story.
[36:36.880 --> 36:43.740] [SPEAKER_03]: And so being there, the hacker community there was just ready to explode in wonderful ways.
[36:43.740 --> 36:50.820] [SPEAKER_03]: And me and a couple other people going there to help people, bringing donations from hackerspaces from the U.S.
[36:50.920 --> 36:54.480] [SPEAKER_03]: and, you know, just greetings from the rest of the world.
[36:54.480 --> 36:57.860] [SPEAKER_03]: And people were welcoming in amazing ways.
[36:57.940 --> 37:02.140] [SPEAKER_03]: And we had these hackerspace meetups where 100 people would show up.
[37:02.240 --> 37:06.180] [SPEAKER_03]: And soon after we left, there were several hackerspaces throughout Egypt.
[37:06.180 --> 37:07.260] [SPEAKER_03]: And it would be great.
[37:07.380 --> 37:08.500] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't been there since then.
[37:08.680 --> 37:11.040] [SPEAKER_03]: It would be great to visit again and see what's going on.
[37:11.040 --> 37:16.320] [SPEAKER_03]: But I was just hanging out yesterday with one of the people who started Cairo Hackerspace.
[37:16.320 --> 37:18.220] [SPEAKER_03]: He's now living in New York City.
[37:19.460 --> 37:22.360] [SPEAKER_03]: And he was telling me a bunch of stories about what's happening.
[37:22.460 --> 37:24.140] [SPEAKER_03]: It seems like it's really thriving there.
[37:25.100 --> 37:30.240] [SPEAKER_03]: The outlying culture in Egypt now is, like the rest of the world, hurting badly.
[37:31.400 --> 37:35.300] [SPEAKER_03]: That started happening much earlier than the rest of the world.
[37:35.300 --> 37:42.900] [SPEAKER_03]: But, yeah, it was one of the few places I've ever been where I felt it was actually dangerous to be.
[37:43.840 --> 37:50.620] [SPEAKER_03]: Because while I was there, the military leadership started getting nervous that people had kicked out the one guy.
[37:50.620 --> 37:53.000] [SPEAKER_03]: But they didn't kick out everybody else.
[37:53.160 --> 37:55.220] [SPEAKER_03]: The everybody else being the military leadership.
[37:55.220 --> 38:06.440] [SPEAKER_03]: And they got people quite easily by manipulating people through their religious hatreds, which unfortunately still exists there, into shooting each other in the streets while I was there.
[38:06.800 --> 38:09.080] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, it's interesting to read about.
[38:09.080 --> 38:10.440] [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting to see.
[38:10.620 --> 38:11.540] [SPEAKER_03]: But it doesn't feel good.
[38:12.180 --> 38:20.020] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and so, so, so important to go and actually be with people and keep those communication channels open.
[38:20.280 --> 38:35.540] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think hacking and technology and the spirit that we are so fond of and we know is everywhere is a big part of, you know, having discussions and, you know, protecting, I think, communities around the world.
[38:35.540 --> 38:41.880] [SPEAKER_08]: So that we know what's going on in these places and that we can, you know, share and keep that spirit alive.
[38:42.760 --> 38:49.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Because, yeah, I think in times like these, we need to have relatedness more than ever.
[38:49.620 --> 38:57.280] [SPEAKER_08]: And this is just one of the ways, yeah, talking about different events, places, and sharing that common spirit and the warmness.
[38:57.280 --> 39:10.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Because that's something we definitely notice as different or as awkward or maybe we don't have understandings or politically where we're from maybe shouldn't allow us to be able to communicate.
[39:10.280 --> 39:14.960] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think it's so, so true that people do like to laugh and share.
[39:14.960 --> 39:27.260] [SPEAKER_08]: And that human friendliness is actually the norm and all too common in what we most enjoy in travel.
[39:28.020 --> 39:30.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so it is amazing.
[39:30.180 --> 39:33.100] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I do travel all over the world and I'm traveling most of the time.
[39:33.260 --> 39:38.660] [SPEAKER_03]: And everywhere I go, I can always go to a local hackerspace and feel welcomed.
[39:39.220 --> 39:44.880] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, just last night I'm at Hack Manhattan and most people there had never heard of me.
[39:45.040 --> 39:51.280] [SPEAKER_03]: But I can walk in and just like all these other people who came in who'd never been there before and everyone's welcomed.
[39:51.280 --> 39:52.780] [SPEAKER_03]: And we can talk about anything.
[39:53.040 --> 39:58.100] [SPEAKER_03]: And we were all there till midnight just having a great time talking about whatever came up.
[39:58.440 --> 40:00.900] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is true anywhere in the world.
[40:01.060 --> 40:05.380] [SPEAKER_03]: And whatever the external politics are, of course, we can talk about that as well.
[40:05.380 --> 40:08.320] [SPEAKER_03]: And even have disagreements and respect each other.
[40:08.520 --> 40:09.100] [SPEAKER_03]: Imagine that.
[40:09.520 --> 40:13.080] [SPEAKER_03]: And have a great time and support each other.
[40:13.820 --> 40:23.040] [SPEAKER_03]: And just having like one of the things I do as well as many other people going around the world, sharing what works and what doesn't at all these different communities.
[40:23.380 --> 40:30.160] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a great way for people to make their communities stronger and nicer.
[40:31.040 --> 40:32.320] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm curious about one thing.
[40:32.460 --> 40:34.240] [SPEAKER_06]: We're talking about traveling all over the world.
[40:34.240 --> 40:38.800] [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, our phone number is 212-209-2877 if people want to join the conversation.
[40:40.700 --> 40:42.900] [SPEAKER_06]: Traveling all continents pretty much.
[40:42.900 --> 40:44.520] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think you've been to Antarctica yet.
[40:44.720 --> 40:44.980] [SPEAKER_06]: Not yet.
[40:45.120 --> 40:45.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[40:45.780 --> 40:52.460] [SPEAKER_06]: But have you ever been to a part of this country that is decidedly different as far as backgrounds?
[40:52.840 --> 40:54.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Say, you know, Trump country.
[40:54.180 --> 40:56.320] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you been there at a hackerspace?
[40:56.320 --> 40:57.840] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you talked to people?
[40:57.940 --> 41:00.400] [SPEAKER_06]: You talked about disagreeing and being able to respect people.
[41:01.040 --> 41:04.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Is it possible in that kind of environment?
[41:04.720 --> 41:05.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
[41:05.420 --> 41:05.520] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[41:06.180 --> 41:08.860] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, just like Alex was talking about, he's hanging out with Marines, you know.
[41:09.040 --> 41:12.320] [SPEAKER_03]: We have preconceptions about all these different people.
[41:12.900 --> 41:15.180] [SPEAKER_03]: Deep down, we're all human, you know.
[41:15.340 --> 41:21.680] [SPEAKER_03]: And if we treat people with respect, people tend to be respectful in return.
[41:21.680 --> 41:26.160] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is something I learned long ago as a teenager while driving around the U.S.
[41:26.460 --> 41:28.340] [SPEAKER_03]: in a Volkswagen van, you know.
[41:28.580 --> 41:29.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Little hippie that I was.
[41:29.920 --> 41:33.580] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I saw Easy Rider.
[41:33.800 --> 41:35.140] [SPEAKER_03]: I know what the South is like, right?
[41:35.280 --> 41:37.020] [SPEAKER_03]: At least the Hollywood presentation of it.
[41:37.100 --> 41:43.080] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's partly true, but it's way wrong and false in many other ways.
[41:43.160 --> 41:47.880] [SPEAKER_03]: I found if I go there expecting people to be mean to me, that's what I get.
[41:47.880 --> 41:52.240] [SPEAKER_03]: And I had all sorts of weird bumper stickers on the back of my VW van.
[41:52.380 --> 41:58.120] [SPEAKER_03]: But if I'm friendly to people, always people are friendly to me in return.
[41:58.900 --> 42:04.440] [SPEAKER_03]: And at Hackerspaces, I mean, there's so many things to talk about that aren't contentious political things.
[42:04.440 --> 42:08.840] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can start with that and then have a basis for connection, which we all have.
[42:08.840 --> 42:14.760] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you can talk about even the guy in the White House.
[42:14.760 --> 42:19.380] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's possible to talk about things in a way that it's not so bad.
[42:20.680 --> 42:21.140] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[42:21.220 --> 42:22.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that takes guts.
[42:22.780 --> 42:24.640] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it's something we need more of.
[42:24.780 --> 42:25.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take a phone call.
[42:25.820 --> 42:26.100] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[42:26.240 --> 42:26.900] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on Off The Hook.
[42:27.720 --> 42:30.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I just want to make a comment about something you were talking about earlier.
[42:30.900 --> 42:31.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[42:32.480 --> 42:33.760] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, a couple things.
[42:33.900 --> 42:41.080] [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, in reference to the dogs on the train, the gentleman that was talking about bringing dogs on the train, it's not allowed on the train.
[42:41.080 --> 42:42.480] [SPEAKER_05]: And for very good reason.
[42:42.480 --> 42:43.800] [SPEAKER_05]: Not everybody likes dogs.
[42:44.220 --> 42:46.520] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, a lot of dog owners, to me, they're very selfish.
[42:46.680 --> 42:49.840] [SPEAKER_05]: They think everybody likes dogs and everybody wants their dog sniffing them.
[42:50.180 --> 42:51.760] [SPEAKER_05]: Not everybody likes dogs, you know.
[42:52.420 --> 42:54.420] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you like dogs, sir?
[42:55.800 --> 42:57.400] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't dislike dogs.
[42:57.560 --> 42:58.420] [SPEAKER_05]: My mom has a dog.
[42:58.420 --> 43:01.160] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, there's always a dog there, but everybody doesn't like dogs.
[43:01.180 --> 43:03.960] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's not fair to impose your dog on everybody else.
[43:04.200 --> 43:11.580] [SPEAKER_05]: If you go on YouTube, you would see a lot of videos with subways, where, in fact, there's one there right now where this dog attacked this lady.
[43:11.840 --> 43:14.600] [SPEAKER_05]: Somebody brought a dog on the train, and it bit this woman on the train.
[43:14.660 --> 43:15.740] [SPEAKER_05]: This is actually a recent story.
[43:16.940 --> 43:18.180] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's the thing about the dogs.
[43:18.400 --> 43:32.580] [SPEAKER_05]: But the other thing, though, is as far as the differences between the subways in England and the European countries versus the New York subways, one thing is, though, in New York, we pay a lot less than they do.
[43:32.960 --> 43:34.340] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's part of it.
[43:34.440 --> 43:34.860] [SPEAKER_05]: If you...
[43:34.860 --> 43:41.720] [SPEAKER_05]: New York subway versus, say, the British subway system, I think New York is, like, decades behind, if not even a century behind.
[43:42.940 --> 43:47.200] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think we pay, in fact, I don't think we do pay a lot less than they do.
[43:47.300 --> 43:51.200] [SPEAKER_05]: And I mean significantly, probably 25% on the dollar versus what they do.
[43:52.020 --> 43:57.100] [SPEAKER_05]: So that could be one of the reasons why it's, you know, our subway system is not as nice as they are.
[43:57.200 --> 44:05.440] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm quite sure if we were to start upgrading this subway system to rival the subway system they have there, the fares are going to jump, and people are probably not going to want to pay it.
[44:06.500 --> 44:07.880] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's one thing to keep in mind.
[44:07.920 --> 44:08.880] [SPEAKER_05]: I just wanted to make that comment.
[44:09.360 --> 44:09.660] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[44:09.820 --> 44:11.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for calling.
[44:11.020 --> 44:12.100] [SPEAKER_05]: All right, thanks.
[44:12.340 --> 44:12.780] [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[44:13.080 --> 44:14.520] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I don't know about the fares.
[44:14.760 --> 44:20.320] [SPEAKER_06]: They are more expensive in London, but I don't know if that carries over from all cities that are more advanced.
[44:20.320 --> 44:22.500] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's basically, it's unique to every country.
[44:22.760 --> 44:26.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Regarding dogs, though, Alex, you're the one who brings your dogs onto the subway.
[44:26.920 --> 44:29.480] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, there are people I don't like on the train.
[44:30.100 --> 44:32.460] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I recognize they have the right to be there.
[44:32.620 --> 44:35.840] [SPEAKER_06]: I think, you know, some dogs know how to behave on trains.
[44:36.000 --> 44:37.300] [SPEAKER_06]: And I've noticed this in Europe.
[44:37.660 --> 44:39.640] [SPEAKER_06]: They all behave themselves really well.
[44:39.640 --> 44:41.660] [SPEAKER_06]: Even if another dog is there, they just lie down.
[44:41.940 --> 44:42.820] [SPEAKER_06]: They're trained.
[44:43.220 --> 44:47.500] [SPEAKER_06]: And if you don't train your dog properly, you're going to get incidents, obviously.
[44:47.720 --> 44:52.660] [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't think to malign the entire species is really the right thing to do.
[44:52.660 --> 44:55.060] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that entirely.
[44:55.600 --> 45:05.620] [SPEAKER_07]: And I would say, you know, the vast majority of people that come into contact with my dogs on the train are made happier by the presence of these particular dogs rather than sadder.
[45:05.740 --> 45:10.620] [SPEAKER_07]: And they probably are much more well-behaved than most of the strap hangers that we have in the city.
[45:10.820 --> 45:18.040] [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, this sort of besides the point, I'm still going to engage in the civil disobedience on a near-daily basis of bringing my dogs on the train.
[45:18.040 --> 45:18.700] [SPEAKER_07]: You bring two dogs on the train.
[45:18.780 --> 45:19.100] [SPEAKER_07]: That's...
[45:19.100 --> 45:19.620] [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[45:19.820 --> 45:20.280] [SPEAKER_07]: That's amazing.
[45:20.480 --> 45:21.260] [SPEAKER_07]: A beagle and a Sheltie.
[45:21.500 --> 45:28.360] [SPEAKER_07]: But to go back to his comment, though, about paying less for our trains, I mean, this is something really unique to New York.
[45:28.360 --> 45:31.140] [SPEAKER_07]: And the subway system has always been known to be the great equalizer.
[45:31.560 --> 45:37.940] [SPEAKER_07]: So unlike London, where you're charged by distance, in New York, you could stay on the train all day and you pay a single fare.
[45:37.940 --> 45:44.040] [SPEAKER_07]: So you can go into the bowels of Queens, if you wanted to, or take it two stops, and it's the same exact fare.
[45:44.220 --> 45:48.080] [SPEAKER_07]: Whereas in London, that two-stop trip would be much cheaper than...
[45:48.080 --> 45:52.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, if you get off the train, if you stay on the train, you can stay on until they stop, which is another thing.
[45:53.040 --> 45:53.480] [SPEAKER_06]: They stop.
[45:53.720 --> 45:54.740] [SPEAKER_06]: Our trains don't stop.
[45:54.900 --> 45:55.300] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[45:55.700 --> 45:58.760] [SPEAKER_06]: And the reason for that is because you tap going out.
[45:58.980 --> 46:12.500] [SPEAKER_06]: And they have a tapping system, too, which I'm looking forward to in New York when we have a system where you actually... the fare is calculated based on how often you use your card that day, so you pay the less amount.
[46:12.700 --> 46:18.280] [SPEAKER_06]: You say, you know, a day pass or, you know, for one fare, it calculates it for you.
[46:18.860 --> 46:20.140] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll have a system like that.
[46:20.280 --> 46:21.960] [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully, it won't be based on distance, though.
[46:22.240 --> 46:28.000] [SPEAKER_07]: No, and that's what I mean to say, is that, you know, the system by design has been very, you know, equalizing.
[46:28.000 --> 46:30.700] [SPEAKER_07]: It's been an egalitarian system, and I agree.
[46:30.720 --> 46:31.980] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want that to change at all.
[46:31.980 --> 46:33.100] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, let's take another phone call.
[46:33.180 --> 46:33.440] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[46:33.540 --> 46:34.220] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on Off The Hook.
[46:34.840 --> 46:35.540] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, hi.
[46:35.740 --> 46:36.000] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[46:36.100 --> 46:37.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Can you speak up a little bit?
[46:37.620 --> 46:37.900] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[46:38.140 --> 46:39.020] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this better?
[46:39.660 --> 46:41.860] [SPEAKER_06]: You seem to have something going on with your phone there.
[46:42.020 --> 46:42.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Off screen.
[46:42.480 --> 46:42.840] [SPEAKER_02]: Off screen.
[46:42.840 --> 46:43.540] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this better?
[46:43.580 --> 46:44.100] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's better.
[46:44.160 --> 46:44.420] [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead.
[46:44.560 --> 46:45.020] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, good.
[46:45.420 --> 46:45.940] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[46:46.880 --> 47:00.340] [SPEAKER_02]: First one comment about the fares, you know, the person I called before obviously doesn't travel much out of London because everywhere else in Europe, the fares are between one, one and a half euro.
[47:00.840 --> 47:02.540] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking about Spain.
[47:03.060 --> 47:05.320] [SPEAKER_02]: France has got an even better deal.
[47:05.500 --> 47:07.840] [SPEAKER_02]: If you go to Paris, you can buy 10 rides.
[47:07.940 --> 47:08.460] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's right.
[47:08.820 --> 47:10.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Eastern Europe is insanely cheap.
[47:11.140 --> 47:11.400] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[47:11.520 --> 47:15.540] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say that New York is rather on the high end rather than the low end.
[47:15.540 --> 47:31.220] [SPEAKER_02]: But specifically, again, I don't want to hijack the conversation because it took a very nice time, and I don't want to put a depth on that, but that person had a distinct law enforcement accent.
[47:31.620 --> 47:33.720] [SPEAKER_02]: And without being too paranoid...
[47:33.720 --> 47:35.240] [SPEAKER_06]: A law enforcement accent?
[47:35.560 --> 47:35.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[47:36.100 --> 47:36.380] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[47:37.040 --> 47:37.160] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[47:37.980 --> 47:54.940] [SPEAKER_02]: Without being too paranoid, you know, I just wanted to say specifically to Mitch that, you know, while we all travel with an open mind and we hope for a better world, you know, be careful about divulging your living arrangements so widely because a lot of people listen and they're not all friendly.
[47:55.140 --> 48:06.460] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, for example, in New York, the law says that if you have a rent-controlled or stabilized apartment, you have to live here 181 days a year and similar other things.
[48:06.460 --> 48:22.760] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I don't know what your living arrangements are and how safe and secure your situations are, but just, you know, while we're all starry-eyed and we hope for a better world, we also have to keep our own situations in mind and try to protect them.
[48:23.040 --> 48:24.320] [SPEAKER_06]: That's always good advice.
[48:24.580 --> 48:26.300] [SPEAKER_06]: And thank you for sharing it with us.
[48:26.300 --> 48:26.560] [SPEAKER_09]: And thank you.
[48:26.660 --> 48:28.080] [SPEAKER_09]: And I'll listen to the rest of the show.
[48:28.180 --> 48:28.820] [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you so much.
[48:28.940 --> 48:29.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Have a good night.
[48:29.400 --> 48:32.820] [SPEAKER_06]: And, yes, I think that's something we can all bear in mind.
[48:33.220 --> 48:37.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Keep our private information, you know, as private as we wish.
[48:37.580 --> 48:42.540] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think we're giving out too much information here, any of us, but a lot of people do.
[48:42.720 --> 48:50.780] [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of people on Facebook and on Twitter and social media, they tell their entire story and you can find out all kinds of things about them and you really shouldn't be able to do that.
[48:51.280 --> 48:54.480] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's something that I think we as hackers need to educate people on.
[48:54.680 --> 48:57.100] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you please tell me your mother's maiden name?
[48:57.180 --> 48:57.380] [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[48:57.540 --> 48:58.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know what?
[48:58.200 --> 49:00.600] [SPEAKER_06]: But I've never told anybody my mother's maiden name.
[49:01.000 --> 49:03.440] [SPEAKER_06]: I lie to every credit card company that asks that.
[49:03.540 --> 49:04.400] [SPEAKER_06]: And you can do that.
[49:04.520 --> 49:05.500] [SPEAKER_06]: You can totally do that.
[49:05.660 --> 49:06.660] [SPEAKER_06]: It's awesome.
[49:07.080 --> 49:07.860] [SPEAKER_06]: It's empowering.
[49:08.140 --> 49:11.760] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to tell the truth, you know, when giving that information out.
[49:12.900 --> 49:17.900] [SPEAKER_06]: And they're not entitled to know the actual facts as far as your personal life.
[49:18.040 --> 49:18.800] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take another phone call.
[49:18.880 --> 49:19.140] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[49:19.260 --> 49:19.980] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on Off The Hook.
[49:20.680 --> 49:21.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[49:21.280 --> 49:24.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Talking about meeting Marines and getting a different take on them.
[49:24.700 --> 49:29.640] [SPEAKER_00]: In the 80s, they were filming some video in Washington Square Park.
[49:29.640 --> 49:32.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the place was packed and met two Marines who were on leave.
[49:32.920 --> 49:36.160] [SPEAKER_00]: They had both just taken LSD and they were tripping.
[49:36.520 --> 49:36.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[49:37.780 --> 49:39.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I couldn't believe that.
[49:39.620 --> 49:42.160] [SPEAKER_00]: And they said that they were new to New York.
[49:42.340 --> 49:43.560] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, you might...
[49:43.560 --> 49:47.820] [SPEAKER_00]: They said they were just going to get on a train and go somewhere and see what was happening while they were tripping.
[49:47.820 --> 49:49.200] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they didn't need to go on a train.
[49:49.440 --> 49:52.160] [SPEAKER_06]: They could have just stood still and all kinds of things.
[49:52.200 --> 49:57.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, the park was filled at that time, you know, it was early.
[49:57.360 --> 50:02.220] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, Washington Square, that gets, you know, it gets empty as the night goes on.
[50:02.380 --> 50:09.440] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe 42nd Street is more, you know, hopping more throughout the night than Washington Square Park.
[50:09.640 --> 50:12.180] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, 42nd Street on LSD, I would not recommend.
[50:12.800 --> 50:13.820] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I know.
[50:13.980 --> 50:15.820] [SPEAKER_00]: But, well, anyway, that was it.
[50:15.820 --> 50:18.500] [SPEAKER_06]: But, okay, thanks for those memories.
[50:18.660 --> 50:19.940] [SPEAKER_06]: That's, wow.
[50:20.140 --> 50:21.600] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're definitely...
[50:21.600 --> 50:24.260] [SPEAKER_08]: What is the best street in New York for LSD?
[50:24.560 --> 50:25.460] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it...
[50:25.460 --> 50:27.440] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, if you're going to walk around...
[50:27.440 --> 50:29.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Not a two-way street, Kyle.
[50:29.280 --> 50:29.580] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[50:29.820 --> 50:38.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, I would recommend, if you're really asking, lower Manhattan, westbound, because you don't have the threat of the sun coming up.
[50:39.780 --> 50:44.100] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, if you don't have a bike lane, that just confuses things.
[50:44.280 --> 50:44.760] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, wow.
[50:44.760 --> 50:45.120] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[50:45.580 --> 50:47.780] [SPEAKER_06]: I can go on, but we're almost out of time.
[50:47.860 --> 50:48.500] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take another phone call.
[50:48.560 --> 50:48.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[50:49.040 --> 50:49.360] [SPEAKER_06]: You're...
[50:49.360 --> 50:49.880] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[50:49.980 --> 50:50.940] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't press the button hard enough.
[50:51.400 --> 50:53.100] [SPEAKER_06]: And that one, I pressed too hard.
[50:53.300 --> 50:54.040] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, good evening.
[50:54.160 --> 50:54.880] [SPEAKER_06]: You're on off the hook.
[50:54.980 --> 50:55.260] [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[50:56.920 --> 50:57.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Speak up.
[50:59.120 --> 50:59.480] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[50:59.480 --> 51:03.620] [SPEAKER_04]: I like what you guest said about when you go to places, you know, you get what you put out.
[51:03.620 --> 51:04.440] [SPEAKER_04]: I like that.
[51:04.720 --> 51:11.080] [SPEAKER_04]: And just, I don't know, at the risk of being a little personal, how does your guest finance all this travel around the world?
[51:11.240 --> 51:12.340] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'll take my answer off to you.
[51:12.340 --> 51:13.900] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, that's a very good question.
[51:14.780 --> 51:15.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so...
[51:15.740 --> 51:16.700] [SPEAKER_06]: Mitch, reveal your secrets.
[51:16.980 --> 51:17.860] [SPEAKER_03]: My secrets.
[51:18.160 --> 51:22.980] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, let me try to be succinct.
[51:23.100 --> 51:28.480] [SPEAKER_03]: But I created a situation where I can make a living doing what I love.
[51:28.480 --> 51:34.920] [SPEAKER_03]: And when you do something along those lines, other people seem to like it.
[51:35.200 --> 51:40.180] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I get paid to give talks and workshops all over the world.
[51:40.560 --> 51:47.960] [SPEAKER_03]: Quite often, there's an organization, a conference that will pay for my travel expenses.
[51:48.400 --> 51:52.320] [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes they'll even pay me for the talk or the workshop.
[51:52.320 --> 51:57.660] [SPEAKER_03]: And while I'm there, then I have the opportunity to be in a certain place.
[51:57.660 --> 52:01.460] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I can visit places that have no budget and do stuff for free.
[52:01.780 --> 52:10.200] [SPEAKER_03]: And overall, every year, I don't make any money whatsoever from doing all the travel and the talks and the workshops that I do.
[52:10.360 --> 52:11.260] [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't lose money.
[52:11.260 --> 52:22.500] [SPEAKER_03]: So, basically, I get to travel all over the world for free and meet all these amazing people and do all these amazing things, have all these amazing experiences.
[52:23.900 --> 52:29.420] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's almost as if I'm, you know, super wealthy and I live as if I am.
[52:29.640 --> 52:32.580] [SPEAKER_08]: But, Mitch, I bet you travel like a hacker.
[52:33.060 --> 52:33.900] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, I do.
[52:34.260 --> 52:35.880] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's probably things...
[52:35.880 --> 52:36.220] [SPEAKER_08]: What does that mean?
[52:36.480 --> 52:37.240] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I don't know.
[52:37.240 --> 52:41.020] [SPEAKER_08]: The thing I'm hearing is that, yeah, it's impossible.
[52:41.100 --> 52:42.120] [SPEAKER_08]: How would you do this?
[52:42.200 --> 52:49.000] [SPEAKER_08]: But I bet there's tips and tricks and tools and ways to do it that our listeners probably aren't imagining.
[52:49.100 --> 52:56.040] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, when they think of travel, it's got to be one or the other type of logistical situation.
[52:57.080 --> 53:06.160] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's not like the kind of travel you might think of where you're going to take a family, you know, a family vacation or something so formal.
[53:06.160 --> 53:10.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, and there's so many cool things with technology that have made it easier.
[53:10.720 --> 53:18.900] [SPEAKER_08]: Just the ability to find, uh, uh, something we talk about all the time, the best deal, you know, with, uh, uh, tickets and, and, uh, flights.
[53:19.140 --> 53:29.160] [SPEAKER_08]: And of course, trains are right in there, uh, as far as your transportation goes or, or taking a mode of transportation that's going to be, uh, doubling as accommodations.
[53:29.240 --> 53:31.040] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a trick we, we love.
[53:31.180 --> 53:32.860] [SPEAKER_08]: We, we made great use of that.
[53:32.860 --> 53:39.120] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, and then also the types of places you go, oftentimes the dollar's pretty strong there.
[53:39.300 --> 53:50.740] [SPEAKER_08]: And you, you can, uh, you can save even more with, um, just the types of places you go and, uh, and the things you're not taking advantage of being a traditional, say, tourist.
[53:51.000 --> 53:52.940] [SPEAKER_08]: So that I, I think is, is worth mentioning.
[53:52.940 --> 53:54.000] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[53:54.140 --> 54:03.300] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, also being part of the hacker scene, um, uh, if I go to a conference, quite often they'll put me up in a hotel and like in Dubai, the hotel was over the top.
[54:03.480 --> 54:07.680] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's beyond five stars, but, uh, that's not the norm for me.
[54:07.880 --> 54:23.540] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, normally, uh, uh, I, I prefer staying with people who have a spare couch or a spare room is luxury and then I get to get the perspective perspective of these people's hometown, uh, from their, you know, geeky, unique perspective.
[54:23.760 --> 54:31.100] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's really wonderful to be in a place, not just to see it and gawk at it, but to go there and be a part of it.
[54:32.080 --> 54:34.460] [SPEAKER_07]: I smell a book deal out of this for you, Mitch.
[54:34.640 --> 54:37.340] [SPEAKER_07]: Definitely that can finance further travel around the world.
[54:37.500 --> 54:38.380] [SPEAKER_07]: Let's work on that.
[54:38.480 --> 54:39.700] [SPEAKER_07]: Let's get that together by next week.
[54:39.700 --> 54:39.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Great.
[54:39.980 --> 54:40.960] [SPEAKER_07]: We'll do, we'll do lunch.
[54:41.160 --> 54:41.480] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[54:41.620 --> 54:41.860] [SPEAKER_07]: Perfect.
[54:41.860 --> 54:42.280] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[54:42.460 --> 54:46.820] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, also, um, uh, Kyle and I have been traveling for, for about five weeks now.
[54:47.120 --> 54:48.660] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we're not wealthy.
[54:48.900 --> 54:50.620] [SPEAKER_06]: We're, we're not spending a lot of money.
[54:50.740 --> 54:54.520] [SPEAKER_06]: We're staying in places that literally cost $30 a night and Krakow.
[54:54.640 --> 54:55.220] [SPEAKER_06]: That's what it cost.
[54:55.360 --> 54:56.640] [SPEAKER_06]: And it was a nice place too.
[54:56.760 --> 55:01.200] [SPEAKER_06]: It was really nice $30 a night or, you know, you, you, you figure out a way to travel.
[55:01.380 --> 55:07.440] [SPEAKER_06]: We, we, we took an airline called wow, literally, uh, and it cost a hundred bucks to get from, from Europe to Iceland.
[55:08.000 --> 55:09.040] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it was scary.
[55:09.260 --> 55:09.400] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[55:09.520 --> 55:11.620] [SPEAKER_06]: No question about it, but, but it worked.
[55:11.860 --> 55:23.480] [SPEAKER_06]: And you have to, you have to think of things that, um, um, kind of, uh, defy the odds, the system, uh, think like a hacker and, and you can always get from one place to another.
[55:23.480 --> 55:23.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[55:24.440 --> 55:35.320] [SPEAKER_08]: Expensive, uh, telephone, like data plans are sort of ridiculous when you think about how much Wi-Fi there is all around the world, which is a, a kind of underrated technology.
[55:35.320 --> 55:44.380] [SPEAKER_08]: But when you're on the road, you're, you're, uh, always on the lookout for a way to, to, um, get online or, or do something without having to pay an arm and a leg.
[55:44.380 --> 55:47.720] [SPEAKER_08]: And, and, and that's stuff we've, we've definitely talked about in the past.
[55:47.840 --> 56:02.400] [SPEAKER_08]: And I encourage anybody out there thinking of traveling or that is inspired to check out, uh, other places and see what kind of tech they have or, or what kind of, um, cool communities are out there, um, use as many of the, uh, the different things we've talked about.
[56:02.580 --> 56:08.940] [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, maybe you'll come up with your own techniques for, uh, for making that kind of, uh, lifestyle and, and those trips affordable.
[56:08.940 --> 56:09.380] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[56:09.540 --> 56:13.940] [SPEAKER_06]: I think part of, uh, what we always hear as hackers is that certain things are impossible.
[56:14.360 --> 56:15.920] [SPEAKER_06]: It's impossible to put out a magazine.
[56:16.060 --> 56:17.160] [SPEAKER_06]: It's impossible to do a radio show.
[56:17.240 --> 56:19.440] [SPEAKER_06]: It's impossible to do a conference in the middle of New York city.
[56:19.700 --> 56:23.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and it's impossible to go from one place to another for cheap.
[56:23.680 --> 56:25.240] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, all of that is possible.
[56:25.240 --> 56:34.920] [SPEAKER_06]: If you think like a hacker, if you, uh, keep investigating, keep searching for answers, keep trying different things and keep sharing the information because that is what hackers do.
[56:35.100 --> 56:37.360] [SPEAKER_06]: I want to thank people for taking part in the conversation.
[56:37.480 --> 56:38.760] [SPEAKER_06]: Mitch Altman, thank you so much for everything.
[56:38.760 --> 56:40.140] [SPEAKER_06]: You do and for inspiring us.
[56:40.500 --> 56:42.800] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, we look forward to hearing your adventures in the future.
[56:42.980 --> 56:46.440] [SPEAKER_06]: You can write to us oth@2600.com.
[56:46.640 --> 56:47.640] [SPEAKER_06]: We'd love to hear from you.
[56:47.680 --> 56:49.640] [SPEAKER_06]: And we will be back again next week.
[56:49.780 --> 56:51.540] [SPEAKER_06]: Same time, same station.
[56:52.460 --> 56:54.860] [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned for exploration next.
[56:55.020 --> 56:55.220] [SPEAKER_06]: Good night.