Off The Hook - 2019-03-06

[00:00.000 --> 00:07.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: In Rio de Janeiro, our sister Mariela Franco, who led for LGBTQ people, who are also doing that.
[00:07.840 --> 00:09.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: So we know all of that.
[00:09.160 --> 00:13.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: It goes beyond this, but we know we have to organize, organize, organize.
[00:13.760 --> 00:16.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: The movement just doesn't sit right here in this moment.
[00:16.620 --> 00:21.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: The movement we're building, the way we change this country, is going to be sustained activism.
[00:22.000 --> 00:26.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that you're here today, you're here tomorrow, and you're in to the end till we win.
[00:26.800 --> 00:30.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is listener-sponsored, non-commercial, WBAI New York.
[00:32.860 --> 00:33.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's true.
[00:33.900 --> 00:35.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is WBAI New York.
[00:35.240 --> 00:37.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:37.660 --> 00:40.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Time, once again, for Off The Hook.
[02:21.120 --> 02:24.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a very good evening to everybody in the program is Off The Hook.
[02:24.420 --> 02:26.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're back after an absence of a couple of weeks.
[02:26.680 --> 02:27.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good to see everybody again.
[02:28.240 --> 02:30.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's Emmanuel Goldstein, joined tonight by...
[02:30.740 --> 02:31.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Rob T.
[02:31.780 --> 02:32.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fireflies?
[02:32.480 --> 02:32.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not here?
[02:33.220 --> 02:33.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[02:34.340 --> 02:35.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Alex?
[02:35.740 --> 02:36.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Alex isn't here either.
[02:36.960 --> 02:37.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness.
[02:39.100 --> 02:40.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle, you're here.
[02:41.080 --> 02:41.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi.
[02:41.620 --> 02:42.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, how you doing?
[02:43.220 --> 02:44.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
[02:44.960 --> 02:46.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did I miss a memo or something?
[02:46.660 --> 02:49.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think it's only us tonight.
[02:49.720 --> 02:51.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are there microphones turned up?
[02:51.920 --> 02:54.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they're turned up, but they're not there, so nothing's going to happen.
[02:54.860 --> 02:55.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Huh.
[02:55.660 --> 02:58.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think you found some kind of...
[02:58.380 --> 03:00.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a waste of microphones, is what it is.
[03:00.640 --> 03:01.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have a lot of them.
[03:01.780 --> 03:04.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, speaking of microphones, I saw microphone trees.
[03:04.480 --> 03:11.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't know, in the industry, it's the armature, the mechanism that holds microphones.
[03:11.300 --> 03:14.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: I saw this in the new studios here at WBAI.
[03:14.740 --> 03:19.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: So what that means is we're getting more of our new home.
[03:19.440 --> 03:22.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our new broadcast studio is developing.
[03:22.540 --> 03:23.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I even saw a board.
[03:24.080 --> 03:25.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, what looked like a board.
[03:25.860 --> 03:26.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: A board?
[03:26.480 --> 03:27.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like a real mixing board?
[03:27.680 --> 03:31.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: A radio mixing console.
[03:31.100 --> 03:33.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, because this one is from Playtel.
[03:35.380 --> 03:36.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Play School?
[03:36.380 --> 03:40.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't want to say the actual name, but yes, it's pretty much...
[03:40.360 --> 03:42.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing what they teach kids these days.
[03:42.240 --> 03:42.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Play Doh?
[03:42.880 --> 03:43.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: It works.
[03:43.560 --> 03:44.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: It works.
[03:44.760 --> 03:51.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, the new studio, thanks to your listener dollars, and we're not kidding, that's what made it possible.
[03:51.380 --> 03:52.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what made it happen.
[03:52.540 --> 03:53.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: We want to thank you so much.
[03:54.000 --> 03:54.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is encouraging.
[03:54.820 --> 03:59.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have not called in yet, this is the final week of our fund drive for the winter.
[04:01.040 --> 04:04.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there will be one in the spring as well, but this is the winter one, all right?
[04:05.100 --> 04:08.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Four seasons a year, and I think we have five fundraisers now a year.
[04:08.980 --> 04:16.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: But regardless, the money goes for things that are important, like a new studio, like a new board, like microphone trees.
[04:16.060 --> 04:27.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the less exciting things to look forward to, like operating costs and general maintenance, the transmitter itself requires power, all the telecommunications in between.
[04:28.160 --> 04:28.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that transmitter.
[04:28.780 --> 04:38.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's amazing, though, when you consider a year or so ago the doom and gloom that we were facing with the transmitter on the Empire State Building, them suing us out of existence, et cetera, et cetera.
[04:38.500 --> 04:39.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, guess what?
[04:39.120 --> 04:39.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got through it.
[04:39.740 --> 04:40.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got through it.
[04:40.260 --> 04:46.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a new transmitter, new location, we're broadcasting to just about pretty much all the area we were broadcasting to before.
[04:47.020 --> 04:48.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the future looks bright.
[04:49.140 --> 04:49.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[04:49.440 --> 04:49.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: It really does.
[04:50.160 --> 04:57.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: But your calls to 516-620-3602, pledging anything you can afford, makes such a difference.
[04:57.660 --> 04:58.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're hearing it in our voices.
[04:58.920 --> 05:01.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're hearing the optimism that we're feeling.
[05:01.360 --> 05:04.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we need that in this day and age especially.
[05:04.920 --> 05:06.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: We need some wins.
[05:06.280 --> 05:10.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And WBAI is the biggest win that I think we can invest in right now.
[05:10.420 --> 05:13.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: So please, 516-620-3602.
[05:13.440 --> 05:20.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's for all of you who just want to pledge and support the radio station, aren't interested in what particular items.
[05:20.920 --> 05:24.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although, you know, the people on the other end of the phone will be able to tell you some of those items.
[05:24.540 --> 05:30.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have some specifics to give you in just about 15 minutes or so of some things for tonight's show.
[05:30.040 --> 05:36.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you just want to make the pledge, get it done, make that phone call, 516-620-3602.
[05:36.760 --> 05:39.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or go to the website, give2wbai.org.
[05:39.780 --> 05:42.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Give the number to WBAI.org.
[05:43.000 --> 05:47.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can also text WBAI to 41444.
[05:47.840 --> 05:48.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Try it.
[05:48.380 --> 05:50.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll get a message back.
[05:50.140 --> 05:53.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll have this nice little two-way conversation with the computer.
[05:53.180 --> 06:00.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in the end, you can donate a particular amount that you can pay every month or however often you want, however much you want.
[06:00.820 --> 06:02.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: So many different ways.
[06:02.180 --> 06:03.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: So many different ways to support the radio station.
[06:03.840 --> 06:07.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: But only one, 99.5 here in New York City.
[06:07.200 --> 06:10.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been like this since 1960.
[06:10.360 --> 06:17.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I dare anybody to find another radio station in New York City that's been around that long doing something similar.
[06:17.360 --> 06:18.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[06:18.460 --> 06:20.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And those contributions really do.
[06:20.580 --> 06:23.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: They keep us going, literally and figuratively.
[06:23.460 --> 06:39.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: In our moments of crises, when it comes down to technical stuff like that, when you're making those contributions, when you're calling and supporting off the hook, as well as WBAI, it basically is a shot in the arm for us behind the scenes.
[06:39.620 --> 06:47.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And helps us endure, solve problems, and make sure that we are looking forward to tomorrow.
[06:47.760 --> 06:51.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, well, you've contributed and want to see tomorrow.
[06:51.180 --> 06:57.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that means we get through all those details and plan some exciting things for the future.
[06:57.760 --> 07:02.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, you're listening to an incredible place that has an incredible history.
[07:02.560 --> 07:07.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is part of the Pacifica Community Radio Network.
[07:07.240 --> 07:07.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[07:07.640 --> 07:11.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're very proud of that here at WBAI.
[07:11.220 --> 07:12.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: It pre-dates NPR, by the way.
[07:12.740 --> 07:13.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: It sure does, yeah.
[07:13.940 --> 07:19.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in New York City, this station in particular has been there throughout it all.
[07:19.480 --> 07:22.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: You name a particular point in time.
[07:23.020 --> 07:31.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we cover a real gamut of music as well as talk and informative programming that is local.
[07:31.680 --> 07:32.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're real people.
[07:33.100 --> 07:33.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're down here.
[07:33.620 --> 07:37.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to run down the hall, look out the window, tell you how traffic's doing.
[07:38.020 --> 07:40.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that stuff makes us real...
[07:40.220 --> 07:41.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to be getting traffic reports, though.
[07:41.860 --> 07:42.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, we're not.
[07:42.400 --> 07:45.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you're really interested in what's happening on Atlantic Avenue.
[07:45.320 --> 07:46.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we can tell you about that.
[07:46.660 --> 07:47.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's it.
[07:47.400 --> 07:48.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be the extent of it.
[07:48.760 --> 07:55.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I just mean that it is authentic and dynamic and flexible.
[07:55.940 --> 07:58.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can talk about all kinds of things.
[07:58.140 --> 08:06.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And here, in particular, on the Off The Hook program, we cover mainly telephony, telecommunications, computer...
[08:06.000 --> 08:06.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hacking.
[08:06.860 --> 08:07.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Computer hacking.
[08:08.080 --> 08:09.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we say the H word here.
[08:10.040 --> 08:13.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Communications and hacking and more hacking.
[08:13.460 --> 08:14.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot more hacking.
[08:14.800 --> 08:17.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we started this show in 1988.
[08:18.300 --> 08:20.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: That was the first edition of Off The Hook.
[08:20.480 --> 08:30.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: All of our shows, with the exception of a couple that got stolen out of my car way back, all of them, hundreds of them are online at 2600.com/offthehook.
[08:31.300 --> 08:43.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it was in 1988, I believe, that I heard the first person tell me that they were sick of all the fundraising on WBAI and we should just stop right now.
[08:43.700 --> 08:45.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine if we had listened to that person.
[08:45.340 --> 08:54.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine if we hadn't done any of the things that we did through the 80s, the 90s, the aughts, whatever you call that period, and the teens, all the history that would not be there.
[08:54.320 --> 08:56.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's just for one radio show.
[08:56.840 --> 09:10.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: All of the technological developments, the prosecutions, persecutions, and bright young minds that we have had on these radio waves, bright old minds as well, all kinds of people.
[09:10.240 --> 09:10.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all there.
[09:11.060 --> 09:14.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all there on our site for you to go back and listen.
[09:15.020 --> 09:19.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen to the way phones used to sound back when crossbar switches used to exist.
[09:19.960 --> 09:24.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen to the development of the personal computer and how things got faster and faster.
[09:25.040 --> 09:27.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Internet was in its infancy when we first began.
[09:27.940 --> 09:35.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can hear how we basically were a part of everything that was going on throughout that whole era.
[09:37.020 --> 09:47.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: The development of hacker conferences, such as the Hope Conference and our travels to various parts of the world, all preserved, all possible because of WBAI.
[09:47.600 --> 09:52.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's simply an incredible place, an incredible gift that we all have, that we all share.
[09:53.000 --> 10:03.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And never, never a commercial has aired on this particular radio station, unless you count Max's old-time radio shows where he plays old commercials from the 1940s.
[10:03.120 --> 10:04.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's just historical interest.
[10:04.620 --> 10:06.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: But no, we don't accept underwriting.
[10:06.560 --> 10:07.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't accept commercials.
[10:08.020 --> 10:08.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: We could.
[10:08.940 --> 10:10.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're at 99.5 FM.
[10:10.260 --> 10:11.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's in the middle of the commercial band.
[10:12.040 --> 10:14.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it would detract from our programming.
[10:15.180 --> 10:18.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is why our listeners are so important to us.
[10:18.160 --> 10:23.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, listeners are important to every non-commercial radio station and even religious stations, too, who beg for money.
[10:23.760 --> 10:28.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: But all of those other places have additional funding sources.
[10:28.380 --> 10:29.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We do not.
[10:29.440 --> 10:30.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: We only depend on our listeners.
[10:30.960 --> 10:32.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's so important.
[10:32.980 --> 10:37.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know more people listen to more things these days, making it more of a challenge.
[10:37.340 --> 10:44.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: But those people who do stay tuned to 99.5, who listen to WBAI and the entire Pacifica network, they are true listeners.
[10:44.500 --> 10:46.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: They are listening to what is being said.
[10:46.040 --> 10:50.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I get one word wrong, I will hear about it, because people are listening to what I'm saying.
[10:50.320 --> 10:51.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is the difference.
[10:52.200 --> 10:56.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have people who just have the radio on in the background while they're doing something else.
[10:56.640 --> 10:57.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we do.
[10:57.440 --> 11:04.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: But people who listen to our radio shows here on WBAI, they tend to really be paying attention They sure do.
[11:04.560 --> 11:09.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes the things we're talking about aren't of interest to you.
[11:09.320 --> 11:10.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes we surprise people.
[11:11.040 --> 11:13.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's something that they're an expert on.
[11:13.300 --> 11:14.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they tell us about it.
[11:14.520 --> 11:17.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: They can always call into the station.
[11:17.600 --> 11:21.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've taken many a phone call over the years, as well as writing to us.
[11:22.220 --> 11:29.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll give out the email address for you to correspond with us if speaking on the phone is not your preferred method.
[11:29.440 --> 11:32.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: But today, we're raising funds for the radio station.
[11:32.320 --> 11:38.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that means you can make your first phone call to us to 516-620-3602.
[11:39.100 --> 11:42.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's 516-620-3602.
[11:43.040 --> 11:46.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get some early pledges, if you can.
[11:47.040 --> 11:53.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we've got a special premium package that we're going to be talking about a little bit later in the show tonight.
[11:53.480 --> 11:55.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right after we introduce our special guest.
[11:55.200 --> 12:00.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: But first, let's take a look at some of the things that have been going on that are of interest to the hacker community.
[12:01.540 --> 12:07.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: You remember that NSA program that Edward Snowden revealed?
[12:07.440 --> 12:13.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: The one where Americans' domestic phone calls and texts were being analyzed?
[12:14.180 --> 12:17.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is this the thing that came into the discussion as like a metadata thing?
[12:17.800 --> 12:18.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[12:18.260 --> 12:18.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[12:18.540 --> 12:19.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because there were several things.
[12:20.000 --> 12:21.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: So my first question was, what?
[12:21.760 --> 12:26.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, basically, this was revealed through a podcast, actually.
[12:26.640 --> 12:29.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who ever said podcasts don't reveal things occasionally?
[12:29.560 --> 12:33.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, apparently the NSA has not used that system in months.
[12:33.560 --> 12:40.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the Trump administration might not ask Congress to renew its legal authority, which is set to expire at the end of the year.
[12:40.920 --> 12:41.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's the history.
[12:41.920 --> 12:42.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: George W.
[12:42.360 --> 12:47.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bush started the program as part of its intense pursuit for al-Qaeda conspirators.
[12:47.040 --> 12:49.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: That was shortly after 9-11.
[12:49.720 --> 12:52.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a court later secretly blessed it.
[12:52.700 --> 13:04.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: The intelligence contractor, Edward Snowden, disclosed the program's existence in 2013, jolting the public and contributing to growing awareness of how both governments and private companies harvest and exploit personal data.
[13:05.420 --> 13:09.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we talked about that on Off The Hook back then, as soon as it happened.
[13:09.280 --> 13:12.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a big deal then.
[13:12.380 --> 13:12.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a big deal now.
[13:12.960 --> 13:20.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Congress ended and replaced the program that was disclosed by Snowden with something called the USA Freedom Act of 2015.
[13:20.740 --> 13:22.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what will expire in December.
[13:23.200 --> 13:31.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Security and privacy advocates have been gearing up for a legislative battle over whether to extend or revise the program and with what changes, if any.
[13:32.120 --> 13:40.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the person who was on the podcast is an advisor for Representative Kevin McCarthy of California.
[13:40.520 --> 13:44.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: He raised doubts over the weekend about whether that debate will be necessary.
[13:45.200 --> 13:53.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: He brought up the pending expiration of the Freedom Act, but then disclosed that the Trump administration hasn't actually been using it for the past six months.
[13:53.560 --> 13:55.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, of course, that could be because they locked themselves out of it.
[13:56.020 --> 14:00.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: But probably it's more of a positive development than that.
[14:00.380 --> 14:09.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually not certain that the administration will want to start that back up, this representative said, or this advisor to the representative said.
[14:10.020 --> 14:13.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: He referred to problems that the NSA disclosed last year.
[14:13.320 --> 14:19.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Technical irregularities had contaminated the agency's database with message logs that had no authority to collect.
[14:19.360 --> 14:25.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: So officials had to purge hundreds of millions of call and text records gathered from American telecommunications firms.
[14:27.080 --> 14:38.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the other interesting thing about all this is that it wasn't really useful without the program, without using it over the past few months or however long it's been.
[14:38.520 --> 14:40.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: The sky has not fallen.
[14:40.560 --> 14:48.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: The intelligence community has to make the case that reviving it is necessary if indeed the NSA thinks it's worth the effort to keep trying to make it work.
[14:48.900 --> 14:52.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: The phone records program has never thwarted a terrorist attack.
[14:52.660 --> 14:56.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a fact that emerged during the post-Snowden debate.
[14:56.460 --> 15:02.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the question remains, why restart it rather than whether to turn it off?
[15:02.720 --> 15:16.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the NSA has used the call detail records, which is metadata showing who called whom and when, but not the content of what was said as a map of social networks analyzing links between people to identify associates of terrorism suspects.
[15:16.260 --> 15:25.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, even without the program, uh, the NSA could still collect telecommunications data from abroad, which domestic surveillance laws have largely, uh, left unregulated.
[15:26.060 --> 15:33.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: But while overseas-based collection can give some access to Americans' data, it apparently does not provide the systematic access to purely domestic phone messages.
[15:34.360 --> 15:44.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so I think this is, uh, this is a fairly positive development and, uh, something that, uh, you know, I'm a little bit, um, I, I, I kind of doubt it's going to happen.
[15:44.740 --> 15:45.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope it does.
[15:45.720 --> 15:46.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope it does not get renewed.
[15:47.220 --> 15:50.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it might be the first positive thing to come out of the Trump administration.
[15:50.580 --> 15:50.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[15:51.500 --> 15:51.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[15:52.080 --> 15:55.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, these systems, let's, uh, let's just be clear.
[15:55.940 --> 16:04.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, were, uh, an agency be invested, were they to be investigating you or an individual, um, in America who is a citizen?
[16:04.360 --> 16:13.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, and they had, uh, a substantial, uh, amount of, uh, um, uh, suspicion, uh, of some wrongdoing.
[16:13.920 --> 16:19.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: They could still, I believe, subpoena and, and get those sorts of records, uh, through an investigative process.
[16:19.900 --> 16:38.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: But what this is talking about and what it gets to the heart of is wholesale, um, on mass collecting this data just to have it and have it on, um, uh, equipment and networks that, um, uh, uh, uh, surveillance agents and, um, institutions can access whenever they feel like and for whatever,
[16:38.740 --> 16:40.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: uh, reasons perhaps.
[16:40.400 --> 16:49.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and I guess what I'm saying is without warrant or, um, you know, under kind of, you know, dubious, uh, legal grounds.
[16:49.880 --> 17:07.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, as you said, the international, um, uh, metadata is, is, um, collected in course of regular business, um, for the sort of, um, uh, the, the security and, and other sort of national interests, um, already.
[17:08.180 --> 17:11.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: But this is about American citizens data being stored.
[17:11.420 --> 17:28.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, imagine if there was like a, a, a, a government leak or a data breach where just because it's there, just because wholesale, all of this stuff had been, um, once upon a time useful, uh, it's just sitting there and then all of a sudden these kinds of records,
[17:28.840 --> 17:39.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: uh, get exposed when you have stuff in additional places like this and perhaps unsubstantiated, but it's still sitting somewhere, um, you end up being more vulnerable.
[17:39.600 --> 17:48.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if this expires and we, we don't find a real need for it, it, as you said, I think will be, uh, really, uh, something that increases overall privacy.
[17:48.980 --> 17:57.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, and, um, I think we need to be watch, uh, very watchful, mindful of, um, the way these, uh, laws are put into place.
[17:58.040 --> 18:02.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Cause at the time it was in a very frenzied moment in our country after an attack.
[18:02.940 --> 18:13.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, what a lot, uh, years ago, what I think the attitudes, what we, we realized early on was that this is part of having kind of terror on demand.
[18:13.140 --> 18:20.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when you need, um, to gain access to everything, you come up with a, a sort of, uh, justification for it.
[18:21.060 --> 18:28.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I really hope that this administration, uh, ignores that and does not create some sort of reason for this kind of storage of data.
[18:28.320 --> 18:32.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the thing is, um, they're always going to be spying on us one way or another.
[18:32.560 --> 18:37.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's something I, I don't think we should ever, uh, just assume that that, uh, is going to go away.
[18:37.280 --> 18:45.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: This data will be kept somehow, uh, but ending this particular program, I think, uh, would at least be a positive step towards saying, this is not normal.
[18:45.640 --> 18:53.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is not something that should be, um, um, um, just the average course of, of daily events where this information is stored about us.
[18:53.660 --> 18:59.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and you can find out so much about people by seeing who they call, who they talk to, who they email, et cetera, et cetera.
[19:00.100 --> 19:05.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so we need to, uh, uh, you know, for whatever it's worth, protect that level of privacy that we have.
[19:05.680 --> 19:07.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: They are always going to be looking for more information.
[19:07.780 --> 19:14.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's, here's one more example, uh, of, uh, uh, a fairly new development involving another organization.
[19:14.280 --> 19:28.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I'm talking about ICE, uh, in the late summer of, uh, 2018, that's last summer, uh, as there were protests against the Trump administration's immigration policies, uh, as they were intensifying, as the movement to abolish ICE gained momentum,
[19:28.640 --> 19:33.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: uh, ICE actually was keeping tabs on a series of anti-Trump protests in New York City.
[19:33.940 --> 19:39.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's according to documents obtained by the nation via a Freedom of Information Act request.
[19:39.220 --> 19:40.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we still have that.
[19:40.500 --> 19:52.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Among the protests the agency tracked were several promoting immigrants' rights and opposing the, um, uh, the administration's deportation policies, as well as one protesting the National Rifle Association.
[19:53.240 --> 19:56.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: One event was actually organized by a sitting member of Congress.
[19:56.000 --> 20:08.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, uh, Congressman Adriano Espelot, a Democrat who represents part of Northern Manhattan and the Bronx, organized a rally at Fort Tryon Park in Upper Manhattan to protest the white supremacist group, Identify Europa.
[20:09.600 --> 20:10.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not sure I'm pronouncing that correctly.
[20:11.040 --> 20:12.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's spelled E-V-R-O-P-A.
[20:12.740 --> 20:13.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's how you pronounce it.
[20:14.040 --> 20:21.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just a few days earlier, a gang of these white supremacists had gathered at the very same park to unfurl a racist anti-immigrant banner from a bridge there.
[20:21.820 --> 20:25.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that was an affront to the local community.
[20:25.340 --> 20:34.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the rally that, uh, the congressman organized in response was titled Uptown Standing Together Against Racism and Xenophobia.
[20:34.580 --> 20:37.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was meant to counter the group's hateful message.
[20:38.380 --> 20:43.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Espelot's district includes a robust immigrant presence, many from his native Dominican Republic.
[20:43.580 --> 20:48.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: He himself is among the first formerly undocumented immigrants to serve in Congress.
[20:48.940 --> 20:51.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Our rally was about unity, he says.
[20:51.820 --> 21:02.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Noting that the family-friendly event was attended by more than 300 people, including children and young people, as well as New York State Lieutenant Governor Kathy Hultschel and State Assembly, uh, Assembly Member Carmen De La Rosa.
[21:02.480 --> 21:11.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was about pushing back against hate and telling our immigrant neighbors, our Latino neighbors, our Jewish neighbors, that we will always stand with them if they are targeted by racist and anti-Semitic groups.
[21:13.000 --> 21:17.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, despite all this, his rally ended up on a government list.
[21:17.740 --> 21:25.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in an email sent out on July 31st, Homeland Security Investigations, HSI, you know about them?
[21:25.960 --> 21:26.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: HSI.
[21:26.640 --> 21:30.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're the investigative arm of ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
[21:31.260 --> 21:43.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: They transmitted detailed information to an undisclosed number of recipients, including at least one Department of Homeland Security supervisor, about public protests planned by mostly liberal and left-leaning groups in New York City.
[21:43.020 --> 21:55.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that email contained a four-page document titled Anti-Trump Protest Spreadsheet, 7-31-2018, which listed the time, date, location, and purpose of upcoming protests slated to take place around the city.
[21:55.760 --> 22:02.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they did not list the, um, uh, white supremacist, racist, uh, um, uh, demonstrations that were taking place.
[22:02.300 --> 22:03.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Those apparently are not a threat.
[22:03.600 --> 22:05.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: But this is what is happening.
[22:05.300 --> 22:06.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Congressmen being monitored.
[22:07.460 --> 22:12.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Protesters against, uh, what ICE is doing, being monitored, being, um, spied upon.
[22:12.820 --> 22:13.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: In various ways.
[22:14.240 --> 22:17.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we are looking at on an almost daily basis.
[22:18.040 --> 22:24.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is a good time also to let people know that, you know, we have the obligation to spy on ICE as well.
[22:24.480 --> 22:26.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: We want to know everything about them.
[22:26.220 --> 22:35.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: We want to know their radio frequencies, uh, any, uh, leaked emails, memos, uh, internal communications, policies, et cetera, et cetera.
[22:35.780 --> 22:37.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have every right to know these things.
[22:37.680 --> 22:40.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if they're going to spy on us, we're going to spy on them.
[22:41.200 --> 22:41.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's only fair.
[22:42.240 --> 22:46.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a secure drop, um, uh, section of our website.
[22:46.180 --> 22:56.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Secure drop allows you to, uh, submit documents of all sorts, um, audio, video, you name it all without us ever knowing who you are.
[22:56.260 --> 22:57.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, really simple.
[22:57.340 --> 23:00.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Simply go to 2600.com/securedrop.
[23:01.000 --> 23:02.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: All the instructions are there.
[23:02.660 --> 23:07.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, the special address that you use the Tor browser to get to, to submit your documents are there as well.
[23:08.360 --> 23:11.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can communicate with us, but we still all know who you are.
[23:11.480 --> 23:12.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it's an amazing system.
[23:12.680 --> 23:16.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Kyle, I know you were, uh, basically key in setting it all up.
[23:17.220 --> 23:17.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[23:17.780 --> 23:18.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[23:18.440 --> 23:21.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's designed to, um, to be basically double blind.
[23:21.780 --> 23:24.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: So both parties, uh, don't necessarily have to know one another.
[23:24.740 --> 23:27.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and we'd prefer if we didn't.
[23:27.480 --> 23:29.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: So please don't tell us who you are.
[23:29.140 --> 23:32.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's designed to be anonymous and that's the way to use it.
[23:32.900 --> 23:48.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you can submit articles, you could submit stories, you could submit, um, the things that you're maybe, uh, uh, unsure about that, that perhaps, um, uh, someone with more technical expertise, uh, that maybe we could find, um, that kind of thing.
[23:48.360 --> 23:49.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's important to us.
[23:49.440 --> 24:01.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and, um, I think, uh, everybody who's listening and, and a lot of our audience that, uh, you know, they have an ability to, um, to see stories and hear about stuff that's in the public interest.
[24:01.860 --> 24:03.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will protect your story.
[24:04.000 --> 24:12.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will protect, um, anything that you send us in this way, um, much as we would any other story and any other source.
[24:12.940 --> 24:16.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, as is done, uh, across the board in journalism.
[24:17.580 --> 24:20.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, uh, I really hope people take advantage of that.
[24:20.700 --> 24:30.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and, uh, we'll put some more links out on the site and, and, uh, make it, um, uh, maybe a, uh, fresh news story so people see, but, but, uh, all the details are there.
[24:30.940 --> 24:32.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a slash secure drop off our main site.
[24:32.960 --> 24:41.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is something used by, by journalists all around the world from the New York times to the New Yorker, um, to, um, um, um, the Guardian.
[24:41.560 --> 24:51.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody is using this, uh, to basically, um, receive news stories, to receive, um, uh, documents and, and things that are of interest to the public.
[24:51.560 --> 24:58.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to know what is going on, the kinds of sneaky behavior that are, are happening every single day.
[24:58.580 --> 24:59.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we can talk about it.
[24:59.440 --> 25:00.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: We can theorize about it.
[25:00.340 --> 25:03.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when you have the actual evidence in front of you, that's when you can do something.
[25:03.340 --> 25:08.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we've gotten a lot of material so far at our secure drop, um, uh, um, address.
[25:09.460 --> 25:12.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of it though, uh, it's not really, um, it's not really information.
[25:12.900 --> 25:20.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, it's, it's websites that we can go to without any kind of, uh, encryption or, or disguising or it's, it's personal communication, which is fine.
[25:20.320 --> 25:36.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, as far as really juicy stuff, that's something that, um, we can now receive without any kind of, um, of, of, of risk other than if you start telling people what you're doing or, uh, are doing from an insecure, uh, computer in the first place,
[25:36.700 --> 25:38.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: uh, there is an opportunity here.
[25:38.620 --> 25:49.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a fundamental tool of democracy that I think everybody needs to, um, uh, to take part in, uh, for us to maintain our democracy to keep things from, uh, from falling apart.
[25:49.700 --> 25:53.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, the address, 2600.com/securedrop, one word.
[25:53.940 --> 25:55.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: All the directions are there.
[25:55.640 --> 26:01.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have any, um, questions at all, you can always write to our email address, oth@2600.com.
[26:01.360 --> 26:01.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[26:01.980 --> 26:11.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And definitely, uh, follow, um, some, some guidelines, maybe, uh, look up, um, you know, submitting sources anonymously just on some tips and tricks.
[26:11.960 --> 26:25.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, definitely you want to follow basic operational security and, um, and, uh, and not be, as you said, sharing, uh, what you're doing, especially if it's sensitive, especially if it's something that, um, is in the public interest and, and you want to,
[26:26.100 --> 26:28.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: uh, to safely, uh, get out there.
[26:28.780 --> 26:36.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we'd seen, you know, and, and, and this is why, uh, I would suggest that is that, you know, we've seen, uh, systems like this fail.
[26:37.080 --> 26:43.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've seen people, uh, and, and places, uh, become the clearinghouse for this kind of thing.
[26:43.220 --> 27:00.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, what's happened, I think, and what a lot of, uh, institutions, we're no different than, uh, have decided to, to do this themselves, uh, instead of trusting one or the other organization out there to, uh, accept things securely, the, the technology itself,
[27:00.540 --> 27:02.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: um, kept developing.
[27:02.340 --> 27:12.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, was something that Aaron Schwartz, um, uh, started the, the Freedom of the Press Foundation and, uh, Secure Drop in general was a project that he had nurtured along.
[27:12.680 --> 27:13.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and, uh...
[27:13.440 --> 27:18.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what better testament to his memory to, to make full use of this and use it to preserve democracy.
[27:18.100 --> 27:23.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, um, if, if, if you are submitting something, um, don't do it.
[27:23.380 --> 27:29.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's, let's say we're talking to a, uh, hypothetical ICE employee who has all this information at their fingertips.
[27:30.040 --> 27:40.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't use your personal computer at your desk to go to the tour browser and then go to our special, uh, dot onion address for the Secure Drop service because you will be monitored.
[27:41.120 --> 27:44.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: You will be monitored by your superiors and they will know that you did something.
[27:44.600 --> 27:52.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: They will know exactly what you did, but they'll know that you went somewhere suspicious in their eyes and they will take action against you for that.
[27:52.900 --> 28:01.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Instead, get the, uh, get the documents out of there somehow, you know, uh, I'm sure there are ways that you can figure out to do that and do it from a secure location.
[28:01.760 --> 28:17.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if we get raided by authorities who kick in our doors and demand that we, we tell who sent us these particular documents that are completely, uh, uh, destroying the Trump regime, um, we won't be able to say who they came from.
[28:17.380 --> 28:19.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, we won't know they can torture us.
[28:20.140 --> 28:27.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We might, you know, blame somebody innocent, but we can't tell them who it is because we, we won't know.
[28:27.440 --> 28:30.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We absolutely will not know unless you tell us, don't tell us.
[28:30.540 --> 28:30.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[28:31.100 --> 28:49.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, uh, that's the important thing is to remember that, uh, yeah, how, how you do this is highly dependent on your, uh, personal circumstance and by all means, you know, if it, if it is appropriate and there is oversight or, um, uh, internal affairs at whatever organization you're at,
[28:50.000 --> 28:54.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: don't hesitate, you know, do, do the right thing, do, um, what you feel is appropriate for the situation.
[28:55.380 --> 29:02.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, if you're having personal issues or HR issues that might not be in our wheelhouse, we might not be able to help you with that specifically.
[29:02.520 --> 29:08.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but, uh, so absolutely, um, you know, take whatever steps you need outside of it.
[29:08.520 --> 29:23.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if we, if you think this is something we can help with, um, and it is, uh, in the public interest, we would absolutely, um, like to see that information and, and, uh, nurture it along and help, help publish and help share, uh, whatever story it is,
[29:23.340 --> 29:32.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: but it is, it's highly, uh, specific to each person and, um, you just basically need to follow, uh, uh, regular, um, operational security.
[29:32.620 --> 29:37.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, address 2600.com/securedrop for any information you want to send to us.
[29:37.860 --> 29:41.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, uh, Kyle, I know you have a story from Holland, uh, that you want to get to.
[29:41.400 --> 29:46.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get our, our special guest on the phone, uh, and I will rejoin you in a few seconds.
[29:46.280 --> 29:46.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[29:46.760 --> 29:46.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[29:47.240 --> 29:55.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'm, um, reporting on, uh, a, uh, ISP in the country of, uh, the Netherlands.
[29:55.580 --> 30:00.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we had a couple listeners, uh, right, right to us over the past couple of weeks.
[30:00.680 --> 30:21.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm, as far as I am aware, uh, um, uh, under the impression that this is an ongoing campaign, if that's changed, uh, we'll definitely update, uh, anyone, uh, perhaps, uh, those listeners could give us a call or, um, write to us, uh, uh, at oth@2600.com if there are any current updates.
[30:21.860 --> 30:30.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: But what I have is, um, a URL and, um, some questions about a campaign to keep Access for All going.
[30:30.640 --> 30:39.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, for those of you who do not know what Access for All is, it is a small ISP in the Netherlands that was started, um, in the nineties.
[30:40.120 --> 30:51.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was one of, um, uh, uh, several that basically stuck around and eventually was purchased by KPN, which is the national, um, telephone company in the Netherlands.
[30:51.800 --> 30:55.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's not so much, uh, the national telephone company there.
[30:55.340 --> 31:05.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, uh, as far as ownership these days, it's owned, um, by, uh, some conglomerates in Mexico and, uh, and other institutions much in the same way.
[31:05.640 --> 31:18.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of our telephone companies and media companies are here in the U.S. and, um, just by contrast, KPN has about 30 million wireless subscribers and, uh, Access for All itself is a relatively small ISP.
[31:19.160 --> 31:23.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's got around 230,000 to 300,000, uh, subscribers.
[31:23.860 --> 31:35.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: So in the realm of KPN's business, and as I said, they've since bought Access for All, um, or have been operating it and operating it as an independent subsidiary for some time now.
[31:36.060 --> 31:45.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, they're basically trying to, um, remove the brand and absorb all of those quarter of a million subscribers into regular KPN business.
[31:45.420 --> 31:51.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what that means is people with, uh, KPN or Access for All domains, for instance, say that's your email.
[31:52.060 --> 31:53.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's always been, it'll change.
[31:53.620 --> 31:55.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: It'll change the KPN mail.
[31:55.200 --> 31:57.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, I haven't, I have a shell on that machine.
[31:57.400 --> 31:57.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[31:57.840 --> 32:01.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: I forgot my password, but you know, hopefully I can get it back someday, but I don't want to be KPN.
[32:01.680 --> 32:02.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be Access for All.
[32:02.620 --> 32:02.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[32:03.140 --> 32:04.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's true.
[32:04.200 --> 32:11.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of, um, a lot of what KPN has said about it, because, uh, this is such a small amount of business for them.
[32:12.140 --> 32:17.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're taking a very, um, familiar approach, something we're familiar with, a very crass approach.
[32:17.840 --> 32:28.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And basically the attitude is that, um, uh, they're focusing on the KPN brand so we can re, uh, use our resources even better to improve services, blah, blah, blah.
[32:28.100 --> 32:29.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: What can people do?
[32:29.640 --> 32:38.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: The long and the short of is we need, um, more people to, uh, get informed about this, to understand why, uh, small ISPs like this are important.
[32:38.360 --> 32:40.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, where else can you get dial up?
[32:40.340 --> 32:42.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Where else can you get DSL and in certain locations?
[32:42.500 --> 32:47.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people are really upset about this in Holland and they'd like the telephone company to listen.
[32:47.520 --> 32:49.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, this is very familiar for us.
[32:49.820 --> 32:53.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just going to give the URL and, um, and leave it at that.
[32:53.460 --> 32:55.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll, uh, we'll provide some updates.
[32:55.280 --> 32:57.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can, uh, access the petition online.
[32:58.080 --> 33:14.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, the main URL is a, uh, HTTPS colon slash slash X S the number four, a L L M O E T B L I J V E N dot N L.
[33:14.400 --> 33:19.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what that translates to is access for all must stay again.
[33:19.700 --> 33:24.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, uh, you can go to, uh, that one more time cause I don't think a lot of people got that.
[33:24.840 --> 33:25.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[33:25.240 --> 33:27.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to pronounce it cause my, my Dutch is terrible.
[33:27.820 --> 33:28.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: The letters was fine.
[33:28.800 --> 33:38.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a X S for a L L M O E T B L I J V E N dot N L.
[33:39.240 --> 33:41.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, from there you can get links to the petition site.
[33:42.020 --> 33:45.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to read the entire URL for the petition, but check that out.
[33:45.600 --> 33:52.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Find out more about why access for all is important, even though they are owned and operated, uh, by KPN as an independent arm.
[33:52.800 --> 33:54.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, they still matter.
[33:54.400 --> 33:59.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have great customer service and I has small ISPs and telecommunications companies like that.
[33:59.200 --> 34:10.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: This, this speaks right to, uh, a lot of the things we've covered on this show regarding landlines and people that want specific types of telecommunications service that is of a high quality and with great customer service.
[34:10.940 --> 34:14.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this, uh, campaign is, um, is an example of that.
[34:14.900 --> 34:18.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, however far overseas, uh, in this case Holland.
[34:18.380 --> 34:18.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[34:18.820 --> 34:22.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: We will be, um, focusing more time on this in the future as things develop.
[34:22.380 --> 34:24.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we'll have somebody from that organization talk to us.
[34:24.540 --> 34:31.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Joining us now on the phone, um, is the head of, uh, an organization that, that, uh, is, is known and loved in the hacker community.
[34:31.520 --> 34:33.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, no starch press.
[34:33.220 --> 34:35.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the head of no starch press, Bill Pollack is joining us.
[34:35.720 --> 34:36.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bill, welcome.
[34:37.840 --> 34:38.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[34:38.660 --> 34:39.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Always, always a pleasure.
[34:39.900 --> 34:41.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: I really appreciate the opportunity.
[34:41.500 --> 34:45.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, uh, Bill, I know, uh, you've had some interesting, um, uh, challenges.
[34:45.580 --> 34:51.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, let me just say before, uh, we even, we even start talking about this, that we have a special no starch package.
[34:51.220 --> 34:59.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get into what's contained in that, but if you just want to call now and pledge for that for a hundred bucks, you'll get the no starch package, uh, 516-620-3602.
[34:59.760 --> 35:00.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a couple of books and a t-shirt.
[35:00.960 --> 35:02.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's really, uh, worth it.
[35:02.620 --> 35:18.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll, we'll go into details, but first Bill, I want to ask you what's been going on because I know you've been having some, uh, terrible run-ins with Amazon, um, selling some counterfeit, um, uh, versions of books of yours, which I find to be incredible that this is actually going on.
[35:18.180 --> 35:19.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you explain what, what this involves?
[35:22.840 --> 35:24.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: So the, it's the same.
[35:24.480 --> 35:29.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I should note that the, the books that are part of package are not counterfeit because they came from our office.
[35:29.860 --> 35:30.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[35:30.360 --> 35:32.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: At least, and if they are, please let me know.
[35:32.260 --> 35:33.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Guaranteed not to be.
[35:33.280 --> 35:33.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[35:34.980 --> 35:35.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I think so.
[35:36.620 --> 35:42.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so we had this issue with Amazon in 2017 and that's, uh, that's been reported on.
[35:42.600 --> 35:44.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: There was a article batted in Ars Technica.
[35:45.040 --> 35:46.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: There was an article in Inc.
[35:46.520 --> 35:49.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, with five titles and it's all publicly available information.
[35:50.140 --> 35:51.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can see what happened to us then.
[35:52.060 --> 35:55.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, basically the five books were faked.
[35:55.540 --> 36:05.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, this happened again to us, uh, just recently where, uh, with art of assembly, art of assembly language was faked again.
[36:06.260 --> 36:14.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, but what happened is that like one of our, one of our readers contacted us and said, I bought this book from Amazon.
[36:14.560 --> 36:16.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is this a no starch book?
[36:16.180 --> 36:20.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because people have come to expect a certain level of quality from our books and they should expect that.
[36:21.140 --> 36:23.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: So for example, we use lay flat bindings.
[36:23.620 --> 36:26.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're about to put a post up on the blog about how that works.
[36:26.980 --> 36:28.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a complicated binding.
[36:28.520 --> 36:29.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's expensive.
[36:29.540 --> 36:33.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, it's basically a binding that lets the cover float free.
[36:33.480 --> 36:35.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: So the covers don't crack because I personally hate that.
[36:36.020 --> 36:39.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're going to spend $50 on a book, I hate, I don't want the book to split in half.
[36:40.300 --> 36:44.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: It uses, I think like the most expensive book glue you can get, you know, it's an old process, right?
[36:44.960 --> 36:53.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's a particular glue that you can get that's most durable and it's essentially like the, the pages stuck together and then the cover floats free.
[36:53.340 --> 36:56.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's one of the hallmarks of most of our technical titles.
[36:56.340 --> 36:59.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: We very rarely use print on demand because I don't like print on demand.
[37:00.000 --> 37:01.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't like the quality of the book.
[37:01.720 --> 37:11.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: So the book that he sent to us, uh, is eight and a half an inches, which I don't have any tech books that are, that are eight and a half by 11 or seven, seven and a quarter by nine.
[37:12.260 --> 37:13.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's got a glossy cover.
[37:13.680 --> 37:15.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I personally can't stand those because of the fingerprints.
[37:16.200 --> 37:18.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: So our books will have mad unless we screw up somewhere.
[37:19.720 --> 37:21.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: And our books have a lay flat binding.
[37:21.780 --> 37:23.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was actually impressed when I saw it.
[37:23.460 --> 37:24.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: I thought, Oh, that's cool.
[37:24.360 --> 37:26.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: A nice, big, fat, no starch book.
[37:26.600 --> 37:28.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess we're selling that for a hundred dollars.
[37:28.680 --> 37:33.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that, that wasn't the case of course, but basically it's a fake.
[37:33.480 --> 37:36.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I, I bought them myself and I know that they're fake.
[37:36.720 --> 37:38.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: So he sent us the copy.
[37:38.840 --> 37:48.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and these are, from what we can tell, they're coming through, you know, Amazon has this process where they commingle inventory and this has been reported on by people at various times.
[37:48.380 --> 37:55.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: So basically they get the books from some source and some, some automated process, I assume says, okay, these are fine.
[37:55.880 --> 37:59.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Put these in the place of the other inventory that's coming directly from the publisher.
[37:59.900 --> 38:02.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a process that needs to be addressed.
[38:02.440 --> 38:06.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I just stopped for a second now, so they commingle.
[38:06.300 --> 38:10.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: That means that say, I copy your book, I make a version of it.
[38:11.020 --> 38:16.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I tell Amazon, Hey, I'm selling those storage books, commingle what I'm giving you into the originals.
[38:16.960 --> 38:18.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they'll actually do that.
[38:18.420 --> 38:18.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[38:18.720 --> 38:21.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they, you don't, you don't tell them to do that.
[38:21.560 --> 38:23.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, I get this all secondhand.
[38:23.620 --> 38:28.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're not going to tell us that, but what's been reported is basically, you don't ask for that.
[38:28.260 --> 38:32.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: You just, what I've seen, and this is a fundamental flaw in the process processes.
[38:33.020 --> 38:40.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I haven't done this myself, but when you go through the process and say, Hey, we want to, we have the rights to print this book.
[38:40.580 --> 38:44.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: You check a box and Amazon accepts it.
[38:44.860 --> 38:45.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Apparently.
[38:45.320 --> 38:57.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, from what I can see, but I think they've recently, maybe thanks to some of the attention that we got in addition to other, other companies, there may be, well, actually there's an issue with the recent Amazon project.
[38:58.000 --> 39:05.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's everything that I can address, but so something happens in the process where now I've, I've been selling DRM free eBooks since forever.
[39:05.480 --> 39:07.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: I never, I never used, I never lock anything down.
[39:08.000 --> 39:10.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: So our books are on pirate sites and wherever.
[39:10.940 --> 39:14.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: And by the way, like if you're going to steal something, you don't have the right to sell it.
[39:15.180 --> 39:20.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: So share it and, you know, and then buy it if you think it's actually good, but don't sell it.
[39:21.440 --> 39:27.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, you can get, you can get a PDF of one of our books and you can always read, well, the PDFs vector.
[39:27.500 --> 39:30.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think they should be able to give them whatever they need.
[39:30.400 --> 39:31.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not controlling that.
[39:31.460 --> 39:39.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not going to, I'm trusting my readers, but basically something happened in the process where they sent them our digital files, including the cover file.
[39:39.820 --> 39:40.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know how they got that.
[39:41.660 --> 39:42.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Amazon service.
[39:43.180 --> 39:49.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: So Amazon, Amazon has the create space entity, which is an Amazon entity goes out.
[39:49.300 --> 39:52.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: And again, this is, this is coming from what I can put together.
[39:52.200 --> 39:55.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: They go and order the printing from another company.
[39:55.720 --> 40:02.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And somewhere in that process, the one company who knows, like, does Amazon go and say, okay, we need more of these?
[40:02.580 --> 40:03.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they say, oh, we have it.
[40:03.980 --> 40:04.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: We can give you this stock.
[40:05.220 --> 40:09.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they ended up filling the stock at Amazon with counterfeit copies of our book.
[40:10.540 --> 40:13.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: And just to clarify for people, this is not Amazon marketplace.
[40:14.240 --> 40:15.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Amazon direct.
[40:15.500 --> 40:17.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: So they own the buy button.
[40:17.720 --> 40:18.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[40:18.300 --> 40:19.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not third-party.
[40:19.520 --> 40:26.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's Amazon, Amazon's entity buying the inventory and selling it in place of our legitimate inventory.
[40:27.100 --> 40:28.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're stealing from authors.
[40:28.860 --> 40:33.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they're, they're, they're selling a fake book, you know, but it's done through their subsidiary.
[40:34.080 --> 40:42.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the only, the only reason, the only reason you know anything about this is because your readers came to you and said, this is not the quality we expect from you.
[40:42.920 --> 40:43.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[40:43.840 --> 40:44.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[40:44.140 --> 40:44.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: And is this something, yeah.
[40:44.800 --> 40:48.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: But people remember, and this is what happened in 2017 too.
[40:48.500 --> 40:56.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, actually in 2017, people were posting on, and one of our authors contacted us and say, hey, I got this negative comment on my book.
[40:56.520 --> 40:58.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we found out that they were selling fake copies.
[40:59.160 --> 41:01.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: And again, that's, that's all reported online.
[41:01.740 --> 41:02.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: There were five titles.
[41:02.620 --> 41:02.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[41:02.880 --> 41:03.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: So wait a minute.
[41:03.460 --> 41:05.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been happening for a couple of years now.
[41:05.440 --> 41:15.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in addition to people ripping you off by, by an Amazon ripping you off by selling counterfeit copies of the books you publish, you get negative reviews because of the poor quality of those counterfeits.
[41:17.020 --> 41:22.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: And yes, in certain, yeah, we were getting negative reviews and we were, and the authors weren't getting a dime.
[41:23.300 --> 41:24.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's, you know, they're stealing from the authors.
[41:24.920 --> 41:28.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: And their response last time was that they, we were told to contact them.
[41:29.240 --> 41:37.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: If there was an issue, basically saying, police yourselves, which puts the burden done, the burden on the authors and the authors, because we're not, we don't have an easy way to check.
[41:37.360 --> 41:37.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is unbelievable.
[41:38.000 --> 41:39.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Amazon, of course, is getting paid for this.
[41:41.240 --> 41:41.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, of course.
[41:42.620 --> 41:49.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Amazon is getting, you know, if they're... Can you contact Amazon and say, who else is supplying you with this book?
[41:49.300 --> 41:50.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: It seems simple enough.
[41:51.760 --> 41:52.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess it's not.
[41:53.080 --> 41:55.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Amazon is not very forthcoming with information.
[41:55.940 --> 41:59.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, and actually that's, that's degraded over the years.
[42:00.120 --> 42:01.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's no one to talk to.
[42:01.600 --> 42:07.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have not been contacted directly by Amazon about this, nor was I contacted directly by Amazon the last time.
[42:07.740 --> 42:10.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they were coming to town a couple of weeks ago.
[42:10.260 --> 42:11.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: They changed their minds.
[42:11.360 --> 42:15.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: We could have, we could have asked them when they arrived, but yeah, they are very hard to talk to.
[42:15.920 --> 42:17.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: They are very difficult to talk to.
[42:17.520 --> 42:17.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've noticed.
[42:19.640 --> 42:20.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[42:20.160 --> 42:28.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the, well, the issue here is authors are being hurt here and Amazon is putting the burden on a publisher and the author to police Amazon.
[42:28.680 --> 42:32.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what they're doing with the Project Zero initiative, which has just come out.
[42:32.540 --> 42:37.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're, they're going to push all the liability onto every, everyone that they buy from.
[42:37.680 --> 42:42.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Amazon, Amazon, when I last checked is worth $780 billion.
[42:43.160 --> 42:46.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm, I'm running a small publishing company by Amazon standards.
[42:47.020 --> 42:47.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a rounding error.
[42:48.080 --> 42:53.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: So why, why should our authors or our company have to police Amazon?
[42:53.640 --> 42:55.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is a copyright violation.
[42:56.000 --> 42:57.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's very clear.
[42:57.120 --> 42:59.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's copyright infringement and it's fraud.
[42:59.900 --> 43:02.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, and it's up to Amazon to address it.
[43:02.500 --> 43:04.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's, why should we have to police it?
[43:04.400 --> 43:05.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why should the authors have to police it?
[43:05.880 --> 43:12.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it sounds like the structure at Amazon makes this type of fraud, uh, very easy to, uh, to perpetrate.
[43:14.400 --> 43:17.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: It, I, that's definitely been the case in marketplace.
[43:17.660 --> 43:29.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that this is going through the, the main source is what people are finding most interesting because that's, this is a first and this is, this is significant and it's not something that Amazon is addressing.
[43:29.420 --> 43:42.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: When our readers have contacted Amazon on our behalf, and I've had this experience too, the first thing, and if you want to have a good time, like tell them that there's a problem and you hear that they're selling counterfeit books to there and they'll ask you what the ASIN number is,
[43:43.120 --> 43:45.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: which is, I believe what they assigned to third-party marketplace.
[43:45.760 --> 43:48.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you tell them this is being done by Amazon directly.
[43:49.660 --> 43:52.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, and then it's like, does not compute.
[43:52.200 --> 43:52.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: What do you mean?
[43:52.760 --> 43:53.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not possible.
[43:53.480 --> 43:54.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: What's the ASIN number?
[43:54.700 --> 43:56.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you can see people posted the dialogue.
[43:56.540 --> 44:00.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of laughable, but it's being sold by Amazon directly.
[44:00.840 --> 44:01.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the difference here.
[44:02.060 --> 44:04.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not, it's not that there aren't issues with their marketplace.
[44:05.160 --> 44:06.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a major problem.
[44:06.740 --> 44:08.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a copyright infringement by Amazon itself.
[44:10.120 --> 44:11.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is unbelievable.
[44:11.580 --> 44:20.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I just want to take a very quick break to let people know if they want to see what a real no-starch book looks like.
[44:20.720 --> 44:24.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the time to call 516-620-3602.
[44:24.420 --> 44:37.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: A pledge of $100 will get you two, two quality, no-starch, non-counterfeit books, Linux basics for hackers, and practical binary analysis, both recently released.
[44:38.000 --> 44:40.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: You'll also get a no-starch t-shirt.
[44:40.320 --> 44:41.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: How that's going to work, we're going to contact you.
[44:42.060 --> 44:44.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to tell us your size, and that'll be part of the package.
[44:44.920 --> 44:46.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we only have a limited number of these.
[44:46.340 --> 44:49.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: So 516-620-3602, call now.
[44:49.820 --> 44:52.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Show your support for real books.
[44:52.620 --> 44:54.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Show your support for WBAI.
[44:54.680 --> 45:01.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Show your support for this kind of expose that reveals all kinds of corporate shenanigans.
[45:01.820 --> 45:10.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Linux basics for hackers, practical binary analysis, and a no-starch t-shirt for a pledge of $100, 516-620-3602.
[45:10.220 --> 45:12.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Please call so we can continue with this interview.
[45:13.180 --> 45:20.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Bill, I know that this kind of thing must be going on with a lot of other publishers as well, right?
[45:23.090 --> 45:24.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't really know.
[45:24.830 --> 45:26.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I've heard reports from people.
[45:26.590 --> 45:35.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know this has always been an issue internationally, and when I've heard from people, I have yet to hear of a publisher that's having this same experience.
[45:35.810 --> 45:49.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've heard of people who are constantly finding counterfeit copies, and then publishers have issues when, you know, they sell an overseas edition into India that ends up selling it to the U.S.
[45:49.890 --> 45:50.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's a separate issue.
[45:51.110 --> 45:57.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I have not heard of another publisher, and I would love to, if anyone knows, I'd love to hear of another publisher that's had the same problem.
[45:57.770 --> 46:02.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, if you look at the Ars Technica post, you'll see what I was posting.
[46:02.430 --> 46:03.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was a significant problem.
[46:04.710 --> 46:10.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, we... I have not heard of any publisher having the same problem.
[46:10.650 --> 46:12.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it doesn't mean that it's not happening.
[46:12.270 --> 46:12.270]  Right.
[46:12.990 --> 46:19.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're speaking with Bill Pollack, the founder of the tech how-to book publisher, No Storage Press.
[46:20.630 --> 46:26.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can read the story, Amazon caught selling counterfeits of publishers' computer books again.
[46:26.590 --> 46:28.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, Bill, I just had a couple of questions.
[46:29.170 --> 46:31.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: You indicated that it's slipped in.
[46:32.110 --> 46:33.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a marketplace thing.
[46:33.550 --> 46:40.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's slipped into inventory that a legitimate supplier is hosting on Amazon.
[46:41.750 --> 46:57.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you describe a little bit, is there any way at all to tell when you're purchasing, you're on the Amazon page for a particular book, can you tell at all, is there any indicator that you would know this is not going to be the actual No Starch book?
[46:57.810 --> 47:00.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or, as you said, is this completely behind?
[47:00.430 --> 47:01.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Everything is the same.
[47:01.310 --> 47:03.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not at all like...
[47:03.050 --> 47:03.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everything is the same.
[47:03.150 --> 47:04.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.
[47:04.250 --> 47:24.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, that, to me, makes me wonder if they're somehow doing their own fulfillment because they're able to mass produce these, like you said, on demand and using some other bulk publishing service to lower their costs and maximize the profit per item.
[47:24.470 --> 47:26.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: You think it's Amazon themselves to be doing?
[47:26.450 --> 47:43.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious, because instead of someone having their own kind of individual scheme to go after No Starch's business, would this be Amazon, because they've already got the catalog, then saying, well, we can duplicate this through this service, and maybe they're doing it to a lot of different companies.
[47:43.790 --> 47:45.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: You think Amazon is running a counterfeiting ring?
[47:45.830 --> 47:46.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[47:46.750 --> 47:46.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[47:47.550 --> 47:49.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: No wonder they don't want to come to this town.
[47:49.570 --> 47:52.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's a total speculation.
[47:52.510 --> 47:53.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so.
[47:53.310 --> 47:55.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, you know, they don't need to do that.
[47:55.390 --> 48:02.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a mistake, or, I mean, as he asked the question, you know, can you find out in any way who is slipping this in?
[48:02.530 --> 48:04.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a retail man in the middle or something.
[48:04.430 --> 48:04.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but you know what?
[48:05.030 --> 48:07.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Together, I think we can help figure this out.
[48:07.410 --> 48:09.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we know people at Amazon.
[48:09.470 --> 48:16.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are people, I hear, at Amazon who might be able to feed us some information, maybe through that secure drop link we gave before.
[48:16.650 --> 48:19.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: But how would Amazon find out?
[48:19.610 --> 48:23.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's, you know, just assume we have an Amazon person listening.
[48:23.430 --> 48:28.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: How would they find out who is supplying the counterfeit versions of your books?
[48:30.330 --> 48:44.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that, there is an answer to that, which is, so someone starts the process at the printer end, from what I understand, because someone that's printing them, I believe that you sign a form that says you have the copyright, you're free to do this.
[48:44.470 --> 48:47.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: So someone at that end, and there are also humans in the mix.
[48:47.570 --> 48:54.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: So what I figure is, the process isn't robust enough where someone who's on staff has a friend in Africa.
[48:54.830 --> 48:59.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, that's, a lot of these reports are people with files who just, you know, they've got nothing to do.
[49:00.130 --> 49:05.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I have some, you know, that seems to be possibly what happened here.
[49:05.010 --> 49:07.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they, they say, well, we have the right to do this.
[49:07.830 --> 49:12.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: So they, they then get set up as an account, they get paid, and then it starts to go through the process.
[49:13.370 --> 49:18.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: So then the books get printed, and then somehow they get brought into Amazon's main inventory.
[49:19.990 --> 49:24.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: The, I don't, I can't imagine that Amazon would do this intentionally.
[49:24.850 --> 49:28.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the thing about copyright infringement is, intent doesn't matter.
[49:28.550 --> 49:30.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, they're still selling fraudulent goods.
[49:30.290 --> 49:31.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's still their responsibility.
[49:32.250 --> 49:39.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like they don't really take that responsibility very seriously, because as we're mentioning, this happened in 2017, and it's still happening.
[49:39.990 --> 49:42.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I were running Amazon, I'd be very concerned about this.
[49:43.970 --> 49:44.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: You would think so.
[49:44.830 --> 49:46.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I can tell you, this is actually kind of fun.
[49:46.650 --> 49:59.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you go to the Art of Assembly Language listing on Amazon, this is kind of funny to me, sort of, for the second edition, and look on, click on the paperback site, and look at the image, you'll see the cover image has part of the spine on it.
[50:00.290 --> 50:02.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: The reason is that that's a picture of the counterfeit.
[50:03.070 --> 50:07.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: They ended up replacing our product images with images of the counterfeit cover.
[50:07.610 --> 50:09.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: The counterfeit cover doesn't fit the book properly.
[50:10.030 --> 50:10.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, my goodness.
[50:10.390 --> 50:14.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it looks like, it looks like it's not clipped properly, but if you go to the site, you'll see it.
[50:15.090 --> 50:17.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's, that will, that's what happened.
[50:17.350 --> 50:20.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: It just entered the main inventory, and it's still up there, which is kind of fascinating.
[50:20.930 --> 50:26.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't that mean somebody would have had to have submitted the counterfeit photo for them to put on that site?
[50:27.370 --> 50:28.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[50:28.190 --> 50:29.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's probably automated.
[50:30.310 --> 50:38.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think probably some, I mean, what, what, you know what that probably is is someone submitted the files, and then they grab the cover piece, and then that becomes your cover photo.
[50:38.250 --> 50:39.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I guess, but they don't know that for a fact.
[50:40.170 --> 50:40.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it's still there.
[50:41.010 --> 50:41.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just checked right now.
[50:41.970 --> 50:56.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bill, this is such a fascinating, really a fascinating look at the, the, the behind the scenes of publishing and what, what kind of things you're running into with, with online sales and storefronts and so on and so forth.
[50:56.270 --> 51:02.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds, I guess it, it, it would be more likely that it is a confusion over copyright.
[51:02.810 --> 51:10.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: I could see a scenario where perhaps there are a lot of files or PDFs that people have made available online for particular books.
[51:10.510 --> 51:18.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And someone sitting, yeah, so someone sitting, seeing all these titles, maybe thinking, well, you know, I'm going to start a business, they're all right there.
[51:18.690 --> 51:28.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that lack of understanding about copyright is leading to making several other choices that then are doing this to your business.
[51:28.230 --> 51:30.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it is a really a fascinating look.
[51:31.030 --> 51:38.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think part of this is thinking like a criminal and asking ourselves, okay, how, how could we pull this off?
[51:38.390 --> 51:44.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: How could we counterfeit a book and have Amazon believe that we are the publisher and have them sell our counterfeit versions?
[51:44.930 --> 51:48.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure there are people listening who can help us with that, that thought process.
[51:50.270 --> 51:54.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, so the thing here is, you know, Amazon should understand the importance of copyright, right?
[51:54.930 --> 51:56.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Cause this, this is about our authors.
[51:56.570 --> 52:02.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's about all authors and Amazon is putting the burden on our authors to police Amazon.
[52:02.470 --> 52:07.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: But you know, like all these things should really fall away as issues that it's, it's a copyright issue.
[52:07.910 --> 52:09.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Amazon takes it very casually, it seems.
[52:10.130 --> 52:11.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't understand that.
[52:11.590 --> 52:14.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like why, why did, why do the authors have to police this?
[52:14.690 --> 52:18.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Something, and we don't know what their process is, nor do they, are they likely to tell?
[52:18.910 --> 52:21.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Cause that's, that's part of their competitive edge.
[52:21.410 --> 52:28.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: But like something is filtering through and it's probably, I'm sure as automated as possible, but it is really funny to see that that image is still there.
[52:28.850 --> 52:33.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: The image of the counterfeit is still the, and if you click on it, you'll see it, it drops away.
[52:33.830 --> 52:36.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: The image that appears on the site page has this fine.
[52:36.030 --> 52:38.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you click the image, you'll see, there's no spine on it.
[52:38.530 --> 52:39.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the real book cover.
[52:39.690 --> 52:40.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which, which book is this?
[52:40.810 --> 52:43.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: The image on the part of assembly language, second edition.
[52:44.190 --> 52:44.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[52:44.810 --> 52:58.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's even more important, I think with, uh, something as, as rep replicable as a, um, a book or, uh, an item that is published, it's meant to be copied in a lot of ways and, uh, distributed, uh, and distributed widely.
[52:58.810 --> 53:11.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's better for authors, but would Amazon stick, uh, stand up for this if their Wilson volleyballs weren't real volleyballs or whatever their physical items, you know, if it was a luxury item or other things, they wouldn't stand for this.
[53:11.990 --> 53:14.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: They'd get complaints, the same exact issue.
[53:14.410 --> 53:19.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: And here's a situation you're describing where, uh, authors are not, not getting paid.
[53:19.890 --> 53:32.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Your, uh, publishing house is being bypassed in the process in a scenario where you, where they absolutely, uh, could and should assert copyright, um, uh, uh, uh, ownership.
[53:32.630 --> 53:38.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, it's, it's just, again, a fascinating look at the perils of, of, uh, distributing in, in the current climate.
[53:38.630 --> 53:40.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I really hope this goes somewhere.
[53:40.430 --> 53:44.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: We get some more information, uh, because it's, uh, pretty unjust from, from the sound.
[53:44.970 --> 53:48.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Bill, now, uh, do you have copies of some of the counterfeits?
[53:49.970 --> 53:50.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[53:50.850 --> 53:55.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we can figure out where they were printed, uh, through the paper, through the binding.
[53:56.510 --> 53:58.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: We know where the, yeah, we know where they're being printed.
[53:58.450 --> 53:58.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you do?
[53:59.270 --> 54:04.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're, I mean, they're being, yeah, they're being printed at where they print the books for CreateSpace.
[54:05.070 --> 54:05.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the same.
[54:06.010 --> 54:11.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're being printed by the main vendor that they use for CreateSpace, which is an Amazon-owned entity.
[54:12.430 --> 54:13.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's in their main workflow.
[54:13.830 --> 54:14.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're not coming from outside.
[54:15.110 --> 54:15.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're coming.
[54:15.610 --> 54:16.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, they don't own that printer.
[54:17.170 --> 54:18.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: They do a lot of work with them.
[54:18.790 --> 54:25.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it's, they're, they're coming from what we can tell from a company called Lightning Source, which does print-on-demand printing.
[54:25.610 --> 54:28.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: So many of the tech books that people are buying today will also come from them.
[54:29.030 --> 54:41.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we use them for print-on-demand stuff, too, for certain titles, because basically the nature of the business is, I explained the lay-flat binding process, I can't print 300 copies like that and make it be cost-effective.
[54:41.210 --> 54:45.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: So when we have books that are slow, but people still want them, we'll use print-on-demand.
[54:45.810 --> 54:50.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what's interesting is this book was never put into print-on-demand, so they don't have those files.
[54:50.510 --> 54:56.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: The first thing we thought was, like, well, maybe the printer has these files, and someone pulled the wrong switch, but they don't actually have these files.
[54:56.310 --> 55:01.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: So someone outside delivered these files to them and said, I have the right to print these.
[55:01.630 --> 55:02.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Send me the money.
[55:02.490 --> 55:03.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Buy it from me.
[55:03.550 --> 55:05.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, the CreateSpace model is apparent on mine.
[55:05.970 --> 55:08.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I don't know the mechanics.
[55:08.170 --> 55:11.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: And somehow Amazon decided this inventory was legit.
[55:11.550 --> 55:15.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: But as you can see in that cover image, the counterfeits replaced the buy button.
[55:15.550 --> 55:19.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you can't get people at CreateSpace or Lightning to talk to you about this?
[55:21.690 --> 55:22.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
[55:22.090 --> 55:23.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: No one has reached out to me directly.
[55:24.750 --> 55:26.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not like we didn't get a lot of media attention.
[55:27.250 --> 55:30.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: They've reached out around me, but they're not coming to me directly.
[55:30.790 --> 55:32.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm pretty easy to find.
[55:32.650 --> 55:34.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: But no, we're not hearing from them directly.
[55:34.290 --> 55:37.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you'd think they would want to do that to try to address this.
[55:37.570 --> 55:41.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: One thing here is the counterfeits are much heavier than our originals.
[55:41.550 --> 55:42.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're much fatter.
[55:42.630 --> 55:46.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: So if you just simply, you know, I mean, they're weighing everything, right?
[55:46.530 --> 55:54.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: So what if you just had a process where the stuff goes through and you do a basic check, you know, every week or whatever, and you see that there's a big change in weight?
[55:55.170 --> 56:01.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that weight is probably a good measure for almost anything, because in most cases, those counterfeits probably weigh differently.
[56:01.510 --> 56:03.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: And in the case of the books, they always are different.
[56:03.970 --> 56:05.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're never going to use the lay flat.
[56:05.650 --> 56:06.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: They don't use the right paper.
[56:06.930 --> 56:11.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so like, and some human might look at the line and say, let's check the inventory.
[56:12.110 --> 56:13.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: The size is significantly different.
[56:14.430 --> 56:15.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: The dimensions are different.
[56:15.970 --> 56:21.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Instead of going in a regular, you know, they're eight and a half by 11 by instead of seven and a quarter inches by nine.
[56:21.610 --> 56:22.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're thicker.
[56:22.770 --> 56:24.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're, you know, they're, they're bigger.
[56:24.790 --> 56:25.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: The cover's wrong.
[56:25.950 --> 56:31.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like any five-year-old, any two-year-old, if you said, you know, are these the same, they'd shake their head no.
[56:32.870 --> 56:33.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[56:33.410 --> 56:39.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's not much to ask Amazon to, you know, be, be of the mental capability of a two-year-old or beyond.
[56:40.030 --> 56:44.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bill, what is your website so people can get more information on this?
[56:45.970 --> 56:51.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, HTTPS, uh, you know, whatever, NoStarch, slash, NoStarch.com.
[56:51.670 --> 56:54.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Usually, everything is, uh, NTS, HTTPS.
[56:54.570 --> 57:01.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And once more, um, 516-620-3602 is the number to call now to get your special NoStarch package.
[57:01.510 --> 57:07.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, two books, two original books from NoStarch, Linux Basics for Hackers and Practical Binary Analysis.
[57:07.910 --> 57:14.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Plus, you'll get your own NoStarch t-shirt for a pledge of $100 to 516-620-3602.
[57:14.650 --> 57:15.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Very limited supply.
[57:15.790 --> 57:18.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can also go to give2wbai.org.
[57:18.750 --> 57:22.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Bill, in the seconds that we have left, can you say anything about these two books?
[57:25.940 --> 57:31.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Factual Binary Analysis, I, when I first looked at that, I thought, this book is going to be amazing.
[57:31.000 --> 57:31.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it is.
[57:31.800 --> 57:33.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's incredibly rich for the detail.
[57:34.340 --> 57:37.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, it's the kind of pithy book that I love to publish.
[57:37.980 --> 57:44.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I've, I've had really good response to that, which pleases me because one of my goals always is to make people smarter.
[57:44.860 --> 57:47.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's, I think that's going to really help there.
[57:47.840 --> 57:50.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Linux Basic for Hackers has been a runaway hit.
[57:50.820 --> 57:58.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, it's, uh, I think, well, I want to say we sold something like 15,000 copies since November, which is really great.
[57:58.560 --> 58:00.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I think we're probably going to third printing.
[58:00.880 --> 58:02.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, it's taken off like wildfire.
[58:02.840 --> 58:10.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have, I have other, I mean, several other books coming this year that I think will be very exciting, all in my effort to give back to the hacking community.
[58:10.580 --> 58:15.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think you guys know too, I started a foundation to also give back to the hacking community.
[58:15.840 --> 58:20.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bill, you've done so much good work over the years and, uh, you're a valuable part of this community.
[58:20.460 --> 58:27.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: We see you at every conference and, um, uh, no starch books are, are among the best in the, um, in the entire field.
[58:27.600 --> 58:30.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so it's really, it's terrible this is happening to you.
[58:30.280 --> 58:39.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope our listeners and, uh, people who, um, are investigating this further will be able to help figure out just what's going on and get Amazon to account for what, uh, what is happening.
[58:40.380 --> 58:47.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I hope our listeners give a call to 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org and get the no-starch package.
[58:48.360 --> 58:54.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Bill, we will follow up on this story and, um, please let us know if anything changes on, on your end as well.
[58:54.080 --> 58:55.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we look forward to seeing you at the next help conference.
[58:57.040 --> 58:57.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you all.
[58:58.080 --> 58:58.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: I should be there.
[58:59.300 --> 58:59.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[58:59.740 --> 59:00.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Go to, uh, Aquario Cafe.
[59:01.580 --> 59:01.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[59:02.840 --> 59:03.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds good.
[59:03.660 --> 59:03.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[59:04.600 --> 59:04.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[59:04.980 --> 59:05.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.
[59:05.760 --> 59:06.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you to you all for having me.
[59:06.920 --> 59:07.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: I really appreciate it.
[59:07.740 --> 59:08.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, hacking community.
[59:09.320 --> 59:10.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Have a good night.
[59:10.700 --> 59:17.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is an example of the kinds of things that, uh, you will hear on this, um, on this radio show, on this radio station.
[59:17.500 --> 59:22.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine a commercial radio station saying these things about Amazon exposing this.
[59:22.500 --> 59:23.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wouldn't happen.
[59:23.300 --> 59:23.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wouldn't happen.
[59:24.160 --> 59:25.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'd be too worried.
[59:25.820 --> 59:27.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, these are the facts.
[59:27.880 --> 59:29.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we're exposing.
[59:29.300 --> 59:30.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, now we investigate.
[59:30.880 --> 59:33.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now we try and figure out just what it is that's going on.
[59:33.260 --> 59:35.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we will certainly report back in the weeks ahead.
[59:35.800 --> 59:39.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Once again, that phone number 516-620-3602.
[59:39.440 --> 59:41.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Ask for the no-starch package for a pledge of $100.
[59:42.700 --> 59:49.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, you can also go to give2wbai.org and write to us, oth@2600.com.
[59:49.480 --> 59:51.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Next edition of Off The Hook scheduled for next Wednesday.
[59:52.380 --> 59:53.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you then.
[59:53.180 --> 59:53.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Have a good night.
[59:54.580 --> 59:56.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, rest in peace, Keith Foote.
[01:00:49.870 --> 01:00:51.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you get in love.
[01:00:53.990 --> 01:00:58.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: mostly just one and a few times take And so on, rest in peace.
[01:00:58.730 --> 01:00:59.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now we'll see you in the next 15 years.
[01:01:00.830 --> 01:01:00.990]  Bye.
[01:01:01.510 --> 01:01:04.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Inhale, inhale, you're the victim.
[01:01:04.710 --> 01:01:04.890]  Bye.
[01:01:04.890 --> 01:01:06.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I am the last one.
[01:01:06.990 --> 01:01:09.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I am the last one.
[01:01:09.510 --> 01:01:11.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Exhale, exhale, exhale.
[01:01:26.170 --> 01:01:27.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: The grace of pressure.
[01:01:29.260 --> 01:01:30.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Breathe with me.
[01:01:31.070 --> 01:01:32.390]  Breathe with me.
[01:01:32.650 --> 01:01:33.490]  Breathe with me.