Off The Hook - 2020-04-29

[00:12.410 --> 00:13.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[00:14.350 --> 00:22.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, essential workers out there from everything from medical to transportation, supermarket.
[00:22.430 --> 00:23.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know the deal.
[00:23.850 --> 00:27.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: You know how we do here at WBAI, and we thank you for that.
[00:27.430 --> 00:31.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned for Off The Hook on the air already.
[01:06.010 --> 01:08.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:08.190 --> 01:10.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[01:10.170 --> 01:12.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[01:12.530 --> 01:12.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kyle.
[01:14.250 --> 01:15.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, how's it going?
[01:15.290 --> 01:15.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:16.210 --> 01:18.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're trying to make sure that we're on the air.
[01:18.310 --> 01:22.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: We forgot to make a phone call to make sure that we're actually connected to the station, but I think we are.
[01:22.850 --> 01:23.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Somebody tuned in.
[01:25.050 --> 01:29.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, we have joining us Rob and Gila.
[01:29.750 --> 01:30.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you there?
[01:30.850 --> 01:31.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[01:31.670 --> 01:31.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[01:32.230 --> 01:35.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you guys could tell us if we're on the air because you're within listening range.
[01:36.210 --> 01:38.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: So can you turn on the radio and tell us?
[01:38.890 --> 01:39.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[01:39.690 --> 01:39.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:40.230 --> 01:41.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a high-tech solution.
[01:41.750 --> 01:42.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll find our radio.
[01:42.530 --> 01:42.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:43.230 --> 01:45.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I believe Alex is joining us as well.
[01:45.750 --> 01:46.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, are you there?
[01:47.090 --> 01:48.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: I am indeed.
[01:48.030 --> 01:49.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Your belief is correct.
[01:49.230 --> 01:49.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, everybody.
[01:50.210 --> 01:50.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[01:50.510 --> 01:51.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: And where are you, Alex?
[01:52.570 --> 01:54.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm still over in Pennsylvania.
[01:54.350 --> 01:55.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're still in Pennsylvania.
[01:55.870 --> 01:56.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:56.030 --> 01:57.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to get to that in just a second.
[01:57.590 --> 02:00.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to figure out what's going on with everybody.
[02:01.610 --> 02:03.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, by now, we should know if we're on the air.
[02:05.850 --> 02:07.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is being investigated.
[02:08.610 --> 02:10.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: The tuning knob is being adjusted.
[02:10.370 --> 02:11.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, 99.5 FM.
[02:12.090 --> 02:12.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, we are in the air.
[02:12.650 --> 02:13.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, good.
[02:13.110 --> 02:13.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're on the air.
[02:13.570 --> 02:13.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[02:14.050 --> 02:18.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can't seem to make a phone call to the studio for some reason, which we're going to get into after the show.
[02:18.450 --> 02:21.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, they're incredibly busy down there at the headquarters.
[02:21.490 --> 02:22.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just need to know how we connected.
[02:22.670 --> 02:23.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's all.
[02:23.190 --> 02:23.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, but we are.
[02:23.990 --> 02:24.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just play it on me.
[02:24.470 --> 02:25.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Play it on me.
[02:25.130 --> 02:26.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, it's Kyle's fault.
[02:26.130 --> 02:27.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all Kyle's fault.
[02:27.870 --> 02:28.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a kink.
[02:28.370 --> 02:29.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you know what?
[02:29.130 --> 02:30.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: The whole coronavirus is Kyle's fault, too.
[02:31.110 --> 02:32.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's just throw it in there.
[02:32.670 --> 02:33.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Trump, he did that.
[02:33.670 --> 02:34.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: He did Trump.
[02:34.290 --> 02:34.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, everything.
[02:35.290 --> 02:35.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[02:36.910 --> 02:41.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: But we haven't been on for two weeks, so we have a lot of steam to let off.
[02:42.850 --> 02:44.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is off the hook.
[02:44.830 --> 02:45.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to talk about technology.
[02:45.910 --> 02:50.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to talk about all kinds of other things that are happening in the world.
[02:50.030 --> 02:51.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to take your phone calls, too.
[02:51.230 --> 02:57.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, the most important thing is everyone's here, and we can have this discussion and even take those calls.
[02:57.530 --> 03:01.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone's here, but also nobody's here because we're all over the place.
[03:01.350 --> 03:03.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're in three different locations plus the studio.
[03:03.570 --> 03:06.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, let's start with Rob and Gila.
[03:06.690 --> 03:08.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: How have you guys been the last couple of weeks?
[03:09.350 --> 03:12.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: I got a new desk chair, so I'm a lot more comfortable these days.
[03:13.210 --> 03:14.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that's exciting.
[03:16.110 --> 03:17.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I helped build it.
[03:18.710 --> 03:22.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's basically an update on everything that's happened in our lives.
[03:22.290 --> 03:22.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[03:23.170 --> 03:25.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, Gila is still working from home.
[03:25.230 --> 03:29.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm still working part-time as an essential worker.
[03:29.350 --> 03:33.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, yeah, we're just getting through this day by day like everyone else.
[03:34.110 --> 03:34.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[03:35.210 --> 03:38.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, that sounds pretty exciting.
[03:38.510 --> 03:39.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have you ventured outside?
[03:41.110 --> 03:41.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[03:42.050 --> 03:45.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: We laid in a brand new stock of handkerchiefs.
[03:45.850 --> 03:52.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: We are mostly doing the DIY handkerchief mask situation.
[03:54.650 --> 03:58.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, yeah, we put on masks and gloves and went to the post office yesterday.
[03:58.930 --> 04:00.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: We had to mail a couple things out.
[04:01.070 --> 04:04.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we regularly go shopping for groceries and supplies.
[04:04.510 --> 04:07.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: And all the local shops are basically, it's the same story everywhere.
[04:07.530 --> 04:08.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Social distancing on the lines.
[04:08.930 --> 04:11.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: They only let so many people in at a time.
[04:11.230 --> 04:12.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it makes a lot of sense.
[04:13.030 --> 04:17.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: We did manage to find toilet paper yesterday, which was like striking gold.
[04:17.290 --> 04:17.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Very exciting.
[04:18.050 --> 04:21.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Tell us where you found the toilet paper there.
[04:21.650 --> 04:24.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: We found toilet paper at Walgreens.
[04:24.570 --> 04:28.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: The thing I don't think we have mentioned yet is that we had gotten emergency toilet paper.
[04:30.570 --> 04:35.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: It is pink, flowered, scented toilet paper.
[04:35.970 --> 04:36.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: From Mexico.
[04:36.690 --> 04:37.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: From Mexico.
[04:37.350 --> 04:38.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: It is...
[04:38.550 --> 04:45.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: All we were able to find, the problem is, when you go shopping in a face mask, you don't know that you're buying scented toilet paper until you get it home.
[04:45.670 --> 04:49.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then all of a sudden, your bathroom smells like perfume exploded in it.
[04:51.090 --> 04:51.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[04:51.510 --> 04:56.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: So as our official scented toilet paper correspondent, thank you for this reporting.
[04:56.870 --> 05:02.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: But yes, and that is officially the emergency supply because we were able to find some standard provisions.
[05:03.070 --> 05:09.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, beyond that, it's interesting seeing the same things cleaned off of store shelves everywhere, every time we go.
[05:10.690 --> 05:12.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: But that hasn't changed then?
[05:13.330 --> 05:14.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not as yet.
[05:14.490 --> 05:14.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[05:15.290 --> 05:17.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, when we found toilet paper, it was in an open...
[05:17.770 --> 05:23.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was in a box that had just arrived from the supplier and been opened and left in the corner of the store so people could claw at them madly.
[05:24.050 --> 05:25.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it wasn't even on the shelf.
[05:25.130 --> 05:32.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: We just found this one random box of regular toilet paper and we just kind of went for it.
[05:35.490 --> 05:37.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, anything does the trick.
[05:37.410 --> 05:39.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't have to be one or the other, right?
[05:39.870 --> 05:45.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's this new territory of products that you didn't even realize were out there.
[05:46.330 --> 05:46.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[05:47.670 --> 05:57.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: I will say I am a little scared of the pink floral scented toilet paper and I'm glad that we found non-pink, non-scented toilet paper.
[05:57.910 --> 05:58.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know what?
[05:58.450 --> 06:02.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think we have to get past the different kinds of toilet paper that we're going to have to deal with during this pandemic.
[06:03.190 --> 06:05.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, we're strong people.
[06:05.610 --> 06:06.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can get through it.
[06:06.230 --> 06:09.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm just impressed that you were able to find it.
[06:09.390 --> 06:11.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: And what was the mood of the people like on the street?
[06:12.230 --> 06:14.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you sense a change over the last month or so?
[06:15.850 --> 06:24.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think what we're seeing is basically general acceptance of what you're supposed to be doing, keeping social distances, masks and gloves.
[06:25.210 --> 06:27.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think at the beginning, not everyone was totally on the same page.
[06:28.030 --> 06:33.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're still seeing the occasional band of fools gathering in this public park near us.
[06:33.830 --> 06:36.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's less often than usual, I think.
[06:36.370 --> 06:40.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think people are basically wising up.
[06:40.430 --> 06:46.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: And as you might have heard when the show started, if our mic caught it, the two-minute love happens at 7 p.m.
[06:46.890 --> 06:47.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: every night.
[06:48.370 --> 06:51.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And everyone just, I think, lets out a little steam out their apartment windows that way.
[06:51.970 --> 06:53.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Someone had an air horn tonight.
[06:53.530 --> 06:54.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was me.
[06:54.450 --> 06:55.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had an air horn.
[06:55.470 --> 06:57.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm about 60 miles away.
[06:57.450 --> 06:58.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't know.
[06:58.270 --> 06:59.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a big air horn.
[06:59.270 --> 07:01.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, it gets people's attention.
[07:01.150 --> 07:01.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's for sure.
[07:02.790 --> 07:10.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, Alex, so now you're still in Pennsylvania, which I guess isn't too surprising because you pretty much said that you weren't going to come back to New York for a while.
[07:10.490 --> 07:12.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: But have things gotten better on your front?
[07:13.690 --> 07:16.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, I'm still isolated from my family.
[07:17.230 --> 07:20.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's one thing that hasn't progressed much at all.
[07:21.010 --> 07:22.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, if I can just break in.
[07:22.150 --> 07:25.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: You thought you might have had coronavirus a month ago.
[07:25.970 --> 07:27.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you still haven't been able to see your family?
[07:28.710 --> 07:29.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's correct.
[07:29.390 --> 07:35.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're being especially cautious here because my wife and my children are over with my in-laws.
[07:36.090 --> 07:39.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: My in-laws are past their 70s now.
[07:39.830 --> 07:47.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the consequences of getting this wrong could be, frankly, perilous.
[07:47.470 --> 07:55.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: So what we had decided was, well, if we get back together, then we have to essentially stay together.
[07:55.630 --> 07:57.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: My wife works full-time.
[07:57.190 --> 07:58.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I work full-time, both working from home.
[07:59.050 --> 08:00.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have a small child as well.
[08:00.970 --> 08:07.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: At least at the in-laws, she has some help with my sister-in-law as well, who's a teacher at home.
[08:07.510 --> 08:08.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: So she helps with the kids.
[08:09.410 --> 08:11.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: My in-laws help with the kids as well.
[08:11.910 --> 08:15.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's easier for everybody at the moment.
[08:15.070 --> 08:26.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: If we were to get back together and they were to come here to our place out in the mountains, then we would essentially be stuck here together without the ability to go back.
[08:26.770 --> 08:33.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because what we know about the contagion of the coronavirus seems to be changing all the time.
[08:33.630 --> 08:52.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the advice of my other sister-in-law, who's an anesthesiologist on the front lines of this thing in New York at Mount Sinai in Brooklyn, is that we should really not go back to the in-laws at that point for quite a while.
[08:52.670 --> 08:55.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that would make life kind of difficult for all of us.
[08:55.830 --> 08:59.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we're giving it an extra couple of weeks just to be safe.
[09:00.150 --> 09:02.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm hoping that one more week we'll do it.
[09:02.830 --> 09:12.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then I think what we're probably going to do is have a schedule of, you know, we'll be together for four days and then away for three days.
[09:12.370 --> 09:18.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: This way we both have the opportunity to put in as many hours as we need to with respect to our jobs.
[09:19.510 --> 09:23.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, this is what it's come down to, quite frankly.
[09:23.450 --> 09:28.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you're afraid of putting your family back together because it could have life and death consequences.
[09:29.010 --> 09:32.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's just become normal over the last five weeks.
[09:32.630 --> 09:33.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: So here we are.
[09:34.010 --> 09:37.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: But on the other fronts, I'm feeling fine.
[09:37.230 --> 09:38.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: I feel great.
[09:38.850 --> 09:42.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm starting to get a little worried today that I might have had a fever.
[09:42.210 --> 09:44.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: But 98.6 came back on the thermometer.
[09:44.870 --> 09:51.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it was just the general malaise of a gray, rainy, cold, windy day up here.
[09:52.530 --> 09:56.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: That and not seeing other people and having been isolated for the last six weeks.
[09:57.170 --> 09:59.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's me in a nutshell.
[09:59.830 --> 10:01.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Sounds like you're doing everything right.
[10:01.430 --> 10:13.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's everything humanly possible to stay healthy and observe some of the sort of new best practices of just simple little things.
[10:14.020 --> 10:15.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you sound great.
[10:16.170 --> 10:18.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's good to reconnect again.
[10:18.910 --> 10:20.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Feels like forever.
[10:21.190 --> 10:22.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It does.
[10:22.590 --> 10:33.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I have to say, you know, being on the radio and talking and chatting and seeing you guys is the most contact and most fun that I have during the week.
[10:33.430 --> 10:37.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, every other call, every other phone call I'm on is, you know, is very work-related.
[10:37.350 --> 10:40.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as much as I love all my colleagues, you know, it's still work.
[10:41.710 --> 10:45.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's good to see familiar faces out here again on a Wednesday.
[10:45.070 --> 10:57.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the only other contact I have is, you know, I try to go out once a week for food and just down the road, I go to an Amish market of all places, an Amish farmer's market.
[10:57.350 --> 11:03.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what's so fascinating to me is that the Amish guys, they seem perfectly fine.
[11:04.250 --> 11:05.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're there every week.
[11:05.650 --> 11:06.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're touching money.
[11:06.850 --> 11:08.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're interacting with tons of people.
[11:08.630 --> 11:10.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they don't wear masks.
[11:10.570 --> 11:11.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't wear gloves.
[11:11.350 --> 11:12.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't wear anything.
[11:12.830 --> 11:17.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And every single week, I tell them, you know, you guys should be wearing, you know, some gloves.
[11:17.330 --> 11:20.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: And their response is, well, do you think we really need it?
[11:21.050 --> 11:23.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: And my response to that is absolutely yes.
[11:23.650 --> 11:23.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hang on.
[11:24.190 --> 11:25.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why, Alex, hold on a second.
[11:25.990 --> 11:31.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why are you having back and forth conversations with people who aren't wearing masks in the first place?
[11:31.890 --> 11:32.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a good question.
[11:33.070 --> 11:35.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I'm giving them my money so I can buy food from them.
[11:36.310 --> 11:37.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, hang on.
[11:37.170 --> 11:40.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, why are you exchanging cash with people?
[11:40.610 --> 11:42.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you shouldn't be doing that either.
[11:43.290 --> 11:43.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[11:43.990 --> 11:45.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't have to spend the whole hour lecturing you here.
[11:46.230 --> 11:48.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you've already been through this.
[11:49.330 --> 11:52.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't explain why Amish people don't seem to be getting coronavirus.
[11:52.570 --> 11:53.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I doubt that's true.
[11:54.290 --> 11:58.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: But if people are hanging out in large groups, that is not wise.
[11:58.290 --> 12:01.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's contrary to all the medical advice we've been given.
[12:01.790 --> 12:09.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if we can't follow these simple instructions, then it's going to be a very long summer and a very long year, and maybe a very long couple of years.
[12:10.850 --> 12:12.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're doing everything correct.
[12:12.250 --> 12:18.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know your oldest son probably doesn't think so because you haven't seen him in a while, and he's probably very upset right now.
[12:19.650 --> 12:20.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[12:20.270 --> 12:25.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: But one day, one day he will understand that you are doing the right thing by staying away for so long.
[12:26.850 --> 12:27.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's correct.
[12:27.850 --> 12:28.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's absolutely correct.
[12:28.870 --> 12:33.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, and just the idea of handling cash is just crazy to me.
[12:34.310 --> 12:39.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it's one of the things where you give the cash to these people and you tell them to keep the change.
[12:39.810 --> 12:42.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you don't want to be handling it.
[12:42.970 --> 12:44.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would go a step further.
[12:44.310 --> 12:50.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, not to put anybody down, but I drop the cash on the ground and say, there it is, go and take it, don't touch me.
[12:52.570 --> 12:54.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, it's turned into that.
[12:54.330 --> 13:00.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's turned into that where you have these transactions where you're basically not in the same place at the same time.
[13:01.130 --> 13:08.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the other day, I was upset that I had to sign a credit card receipt with somebody else's pen, and I didn't touch anything all the way home.
[13:09.870 --> 13:25.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope that these aren't lasting effects, and I'm pretty sure they won't be, because if you look at our history, we have not had to deal with this kind of a thing in practically a century on a global scale like this.
[13:25.730 --> 13:31.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm hoping that old habits come back, you know, the good old habits, not the bad old habits.
[13:31.250 --> 13:33.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: For instance, driving.
[13:33.490 --> 13:35.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we don't drive anymore.
[13:35.130 --> 13:38.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've had the same tank of gas in the car now for over a month.
[13:38.650 --> 13:44.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm kind of annoyed by that, because gas prices are so low now, I want to be taking advantage of them, but I can't, because I'm not going anywhere.
[13:45.230 --> 13:46.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's the life I'm leading.
[13:49.530 --> 13:52.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's exactly right.
[13:52.390 --> 13:57.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the price of gas over here at Diesel is incredible to me.
[13:58.050 --> 13:59.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's the same thing here.
[13:59.290 --> 14:02.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've had the same tank of gas for probably about seven or eight weeks now.
[14:02.890 --> 14:05.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just, I haven't filled up, it's crazy to me.
[14:06.710 --> 14:28.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't entirely agree with what you said, though, Emmanuel, about going back to normalcy, because I just don't see how we can avoid these types of crazy, drawn-out interactions without having some kind of immunity, whether it's herd immunity or some kind of vaccine possible,
[14:28.430 --> 14:30.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: because the virus is going to be here.
[14:30.830 --> 14:32.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: The virus isn't going away.
[14:32.430 --> 14:43.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: If we flatten the curve or if we limit the amount of people that we have in the ICUs, that just means that there are fewer people getting sick, but the virus is still there, and the virus can still be transmitted.
[14:43.930 --> 15:00.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So until we get a handle on how to treat this thing really effectively and how to vaccinate against it, I just, I don't foresee us getting away from these crazy, ritualistic, you know, sanitizations of our hands, our food.
[15:00.930 --> 15:02.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, but Alex, we have to.
[15:02.390 --> 15:06.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to get to that point where we're past it, where we've conquered it, where there's a vaccine for it.
[15:06.990 --> 15:07.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I'm referring to.
[15:07.770 --> 15:13.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: When we get to that stage, I hope we're not still walking around with masks on because we're afraid of the next one.
[15:14.170 --> 15:17.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, obviously, when something happens, maybe we'll act quicker.
[15:17.710 --> 15:18.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would certainly be nice.
[15:19.210 --> 15:22.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: We could have prevented so much of this had it been taken seriously back in January.
[15:23.550 --> 15:29.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: But as far as having to live like this as the new normal, I don't see that as a given.
[15:30.790 --> 15:31.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think...
[15:31.610 --> 15:33.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I certainly hope not.
[15:33.370 --> 15:35.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I think you're right about that.
[15:35.770 --> 15:44.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's something I've been thinking a lot about because we're all, you know, everyone's talking about, you know, when things get back to normal, when this is over.
[15:45.190 --> 15:55.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm really wondering about how people are going to adjust to not having to do this, like, when that happens, when there's a vaccine, when, you know, we're no longer in a pandemic situation.
[15:56.310 --> 15:59.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are people going to feel okay with physical contact again?
[15:59.870 --> 16:01.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are people going to go out without masks again?
[16:01.930 --> 16:03.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or are they just going to keep it going?
[16:03.270 --> 16:09.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, going out with masks was culturally common in other parts of the world before this all happened.
[16:10.230 --> 16:15.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm wondering if we're looking at maybe a new normal popping up around these things.
[16:15.730 --> 16:17.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: The death of the handshake.
[16:17.470 --> 16:17.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[16:17.830 --> 16:19.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think we've seen the death of the handshake?
[16:19.810 --> 16:21.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think that stuff's okay.
[16:22.510 --> 16:30.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's the sort of institutionalizing of these, like, phased reopenings because there's an immediate need.
[16:30.870 --> 16:33.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think that works instead of relief.
[16:33.250 --> 16:38.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think there needs to continue to be relief effort because things have stopped.
[16:38.490 --> 16:42.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: And so there already are fall-on consequences around that.
[16:42.470 --> 17:05.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this encouraging folks to come back to work and even having mandates and orders to keep things going doesn't follow the science as much as continuing whatever it takes to relieve people who are hurting or support efforts to get people fed, at least the bare minimum,
[17:05.470 --> 17:10.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: before we can really even come up with a scheme that actually works.
[17:10.230 --> 17:22.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think most... and the reason I think it's... I think most of those judgments are because there's a thought that that resumption of activity, like normal activity, will save the economic side of it.
[17:22.830 --> 17:25.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think that should even be in the equation.
[17:25.270 --> 17:36.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: And any interim resumption of activity really won't be enough to, like, even come close to any gains that were lost.
[17:36.170 --> 17:38.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, does that make sense?
[17:38.210 --> 17:42.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Like, it just doesn't seem like a rational, science-based approach.
[17:42.190 --> 17:46.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: It seems like a we-need-to-cover-our-losses kind of approach.
[17:46.730 --> 17:48.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that that's, like, wholly foolish.
[17:49.030 --> 17:54.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: We should think about what ways to change and what we can adopt long-term.
[17:54.210 --> 17:56.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's cool to see some of the innovation.
[17:56.030 --> 17:57.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: But not every idea is a great idea.
[17:57.890 --> 18:01.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that conversation is what's been happening in the last week or two.
[18:01.310 --> 18:06.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's no substitution for actual relief during the moment when things are frozen.
[18:08.090 --> 18:10.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I very much agree with that.
[18:10.190 --> 18:17.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it also brings up some more interesting points, like the larger societal implications of having gotten through something like this.
[18:17.590 --> 18:31.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: When we come out the other end, I mean, if you told people, you know, two, three months ago before all this happened, exactly how much of the workforce can do their job from home, exactly how many people don't need to be forced to come into an office for 40 hours a week to do their job and,
[18:31.910 --> 18:42.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: you know, to the most complete, you know, best of their ability, you know, that we don't have to necessarily go out as often as we do.
[18:42.330 --> 18:58.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, just all these things, like, will your average office-type workplace adjust to maybe letting people work from home more often if they would prefer to after this, now that we know that everyone can do it, or at least everyone who can, you know, do their jobs remotely?
[18:59.310 --> 19:04.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we're seeing that work now in ways that the larger, I think, society hadn't.
[19:04.670 --> 19:15.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, just simple things like driving less, those observations certainly are things that we can look at going forward and say, like, well, are there unnecessary trips?
[19:15.370 --> 19:27.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: Are there ways we can integrate healthier things like exercise into this and let people telecommute so that they can have more time for things like exercise?
[19:27.950 --> 19:37.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, those are all outcomes and side effects that I think people are really, as you said, they're noticing and saying, why is this not a normal part of activity?
[19:38.070 --> 19:40.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or can I maybe consume less?
[19:41.370 --> 19:44.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can I buy less and survive longer on less?
[19:45.130 --> 19:47.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I think these are the things that we're learning now.
[19:47.490 --> 19:54.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is a horrible tragedy, and we will be feeling the effects of it for a long time to come.
[19:54.310 --> 20:00.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: But let's not also lose sight of the good that we are learning about ourselves as a result of this tragedy.
[20:00.930 --> 20:08.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that means driving less, as Kyle said, and the sky is cleaner.
[20:08.550 --> 20:19.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're seeing short-term effects of cutting back on pollution, which is an incredible thing that we never had the opportunity to learn from before.
[20:19.170 --> 20:20.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now we do.
[20:20.770 --> 20:24.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: We are learning more about the value of us as individuals.
[20:24.490 --> 20:25.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're learning about how we can adapt.
[20:25.850 --> 20:45.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just the fact that this radio show exists right now in its present form, and all the other radio shows on WBAI, and all the other mass media outlets that are doing things in a different way, and pro sports is basically being changed, the way we feel about that,
[20:45.910 --> 20:47.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: mass culture of sorts.
[20:47.910 --> 21:01.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: All these things will come back in one form or another, but we're learning where they stand in perspective, and how we can adjust, and how we can continue doing the things that we love to do with different rules.
[21:01.330 --> 21:13.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this will be incredibly valuable in the future, learning how to accomplish things such as space travel, or just being in a hostile environment where you need to change your way of doing things.
[21:14.330 --> 21:16.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a terrible thing what we're going through right now.
[21:16.830 --> 21:28.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't mean that we can't get some good out of learning more about ourselves and what we're capable of, and I just hope that we don't get too discouraged, we don't get too impatient.
[21:28.970 --> 21:38.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're seeing signs of that, obviously, in various parts of the country, and I just really hope people just hang in there longer, because that is what we're going to need.
[21:38.910 --> 21:46.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you look at what happened back in 1918, the reason why the second wave was so deadly was because people didn't take the right precautions.
[21:46.730 --> 21:48.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have so much more in the way of science now.
[21:49.090 --> 22:02.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have so much more in the way of foresight or hindsight, and basically, we can stop this from becoming a truly horrendous stain on the history of humanity.
[22:03.370 --> 22:14.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can easily talk the whole hour just about this, about our particular situations, but we're only on for an hour, so we do need to go through some other things as well, and we also want to take some phone calls later on.
[22:15.470 --> 22:18.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: I found a story that actually...
[22:18.770 --> 22:21.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: I noticed this first, and then I found a story about it, which is kind of fun.
[22:22.670 --> 22:40.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: It turns out, if you've looked throughout the world at the way other countries have been dealing with this, some countries have done better than others, but what's particularly amazing is discovering that those countries that are run by women have done exceedingly well.
[22:40.470 --> 22:42.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm talking about countries like Taiwan.
[22:43.370 --> 22:47.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're a country of 24 million people, about the same as Australia.
[22:48.170 --> 23:01.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And when Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen heard about a mysterious new virus infecting the citizens of Wuhan in December of last year, she immediately ordered all planes arriving from Wuhan to be inspected.
[23:01.510 --> 23:08.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: She then set up an epidemic command center, ramped up production of personal protective equipment, such as face masks.
[23:08.890 --> 23:12.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: She restricted all flights from mainland China, Hong Kong.
[23:13.810 --> 23:20.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Taiwan's early aggressive intervention measures have limited the outbreak to just 393 confirmed infections and six deaths.
[23:20.750 --> 23:21.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, these numbers are probably outdated.
[23:22.370 --> 23:23.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: But let's look at Germany.
[23:24.390 --> 23:26.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, Germany has 83 million citizens.
[23:27.230 --> 23:30.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: They've had over 132,000 infections, very low deaths per million.
[23:31.390 --> 23:34.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Angela Merkel has a doctorate in quantum chemistry.
[23:34.310 --> 23:38.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: She's seen her approval ratings soar due to her capable handling of the pandemic.
[23:40.510 --> 23:41.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Then we go to New Zealand.
[23:42.310 --> 23:56.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Prime Minister Jacinda Addern shut New Zealand's borders to foreign visitors on March 19th, announced a four-week lockdown of the country on March 23rd, requiring all non-essential workers to stay at home, except for grocery shopping or exercising nearby.
[23:56.990 --> 24:02.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: The country has carried out widespread testing, recorded over 1,300 coronavirus cases, but only nine deaths.
[24:03.610 --> 24:05.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: New Zealand is only halfway through its lockdown.
[24:06.170 --> 24:09.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Addern says it won't end early.
[24:10.870 --> 24:13.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there are exceptions, of course.
[24:13.530 --> 24:22.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: South Korea's male president, Moon Jae-in, has deservedly received praise for flattening the curve of infections in his country through widespread testing.
[24:22.150 --> 24:29.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: But many countries led by incompetent science-denialist men have led to catastrophic coronavirus outbreaks.
[24:29.850 --> 24:41.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: The epicenter of the pandemic is now right here in the United States, where President Donald Trump initially accused the Democratic Party of politicizing the virus as a hoax and failed to heed multiple warnings from top scientists for months.
[24:41.950 --> 24:43.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a political statement.
[24:43.330 --> 24:44.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a factual statement.
[24:44.610 --> 24:45.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: That is what happened.
[24:46.150 --> 24:56.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you have these situations where, I don't know, is there something to this, where women leaders just seem to be a bit more level-headed?
[24:57.130 --> 24:59.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that a fair statement?
[25:01.190 --> 25:08.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe there's something to the idea that a country that's level-headed enough to elect a woman leader is also level-headed in other ways.
[25:09.030 --> 25:09.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: There you go.
[25:10.010 --> 25:10.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[25:10.250 --> 25:11.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: I like that.
[25:14.220 --> 25:16.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I can certainly get behind that.
[25:16.060 --> 25:16.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[25:16.640 --> 25:22.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just, you know, when I mentioned this on Twitter last week, I got nothing but crap in return.
[25:22.040 --> 25:23.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: People saying, oh, there's plenty of men who are intelligent.
[25:23.960 --> 25:25.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't saying men aren't intelligent.
[25:25.600 --> 25:32.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying this is interesting, that the countries that are run by women seem to have approached this in a very level-headed way.
[25:33.120 --> 25:34.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there is something there.
[25:34.900 --> 25:36.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: There is definitely something there.
[25:36.160 --> 25:45.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not seeing many, or any really, women leaders who are denying science or are turning us into some kind of battle of wills.
[25:46.360 --> 25:48.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there is something to study here.
[25:48.600 --> 26:07.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Isn't there also something to be said for there being a bit more of an egalitarian socialization and that men tend to, when they're in those roles, tend towards being sort of right or the voice of an absolute decision.
[26:07.980 --> 26:21.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we see this in a lot of the rhetoric and our current leadership that they know better and they can overrule or they have good people that are then themselves making all those decisions.
[26:21.720 --> 26:33.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Whereas decision-making with females in leadership roles, I just, on a gut level, look at that as there's probably more listening going on.
[26:33.200 --> 26:54.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's probably more in consideration, instead of coming from one or the other head, that like sort of patriarchal leadership attitude versus a communal, like a community and a group that is really dependent on good decisions for survival.
[26:54.420 --> 26:56.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's less paternalism, literally.
[26:56.400 --> 26:57.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: That is what it is.
[26:58.780 --> 27:12.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I tend to, you know, agree with Rob here on this too, in that I think that there is a, there may be something fundamentally different about the constituents that elect female representatives.
[27:12.680 --> 27:30.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Perhaps they are more well-read, they actually read and listen, look at the issues, dissect them, make rational choices, rather than going with their gut or, you know, essentially being part of somebody's political fan base.
[27:30.680 --> 27:32.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, Alice, I'm going to derail that with just one sentence.
[27:32.900 --> 27:35.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: The people of Michigan elected a woman governor.
[27:38.500 --> 27:40.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, there's always going to be exceptions to the rule.
[27:41.140 --> 27:43.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's why you have a rule, right?
[27:43.800 --> 27:51.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's the same reason we're not pointing out, saying that you were saying men were stupid in these leadership roles.
[27:51.180 --> 27:51.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, yeah.
[27:51.540 --> 27:52.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, to bring it around.
[27:52.280 --> 27:52.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[27:52.920 --> 27:54.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, anyway, go ahead.
[27:55.600 --> 28:02.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, but there's probably something to what Kyle was saying too, that, you know, there may be something in the feminine style of leadership here.
[28:02.620 --> 28:05.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's probably a combination of the two, quite frankly.
[28:05.420 --> 28:07.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's an interesting phenomenon.
[28:07.080 --> 28:16.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm somebody who, you know, I acknowledge this, and I like to think of people as being people without reference to gender, race, creed, religion.
[28:17.600 --> 28:21.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, but, yeah, the statistics say another thing.
[28:21.060 --> 28:39.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: And even female leaders working within a system that's based on that sort of paternal setup is wholly different than like a matrilineal society or something that's going to have, that's going to derive that from female leadership in a sort of natural way.
[28:40.400 --> 28:50.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: To kind of piggyback on that, I think there is also a certain expectation in society, and I'm not saying anything about our home or the division of labor here.
[28:50.800 --> 29:01.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what I am going to say is that often you find a lot of the balance of making things happen and keeping people alive and keeping people fed falls to women.
[29:02.140 --> 29:14.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: So even then, when we step out of the home and are, you know, working in whatever system it happens to be, we're still making sure that we're keeping people alive and keeping people fed.
[29:14.380 --> 29:19.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think in a lot of ways that can bleed over into politics, into business, into whatever it happens to be.
[29:19.940 --> 29:26.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I think that there's a certain expectation of women as multitaskers that can be to women's benefit wherever we happen to be.
[29:28.220 --> 29:29.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, yes.
[29:29.520 --> 29:31.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it's a transference of that skill set.
[29:33.500 --> 29:45.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, male or female, I hope whoever is leading your land is doing it the right way, and you have faith in them to tell you what is going on, and hopefully they're being honest.
[29:45.820 --> 29:54.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Other things that have been happening include, obviously, all the digital get-togethers that we've been having, and Zoom is one of those.
[29:54.540 --> 29:56.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people using Zoom.
[29:56.360 --> 30:00.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, of course, a lot of people who aren't supposed to be using Zoom are using Zoom.
[30:00.780 --> 30:16.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: According to CBS affiliate WVLT, the Association of African American Students, was hosting a virtual version of its annual spring cookout on Friday when neo-Nazis entered the Zoom meeting and began using racial slurs.
[30:16.600 --> 30:17.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: At least one racist hacker...
[30:17.860 --> 30:18.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, why?
[30:18.880 --> 30:19.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why?
[30:19.480 --> 30:20.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: What makes them a hacker?
[30:20.540 --> 30:21.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll get into this.
[30:21.280 --> 30:28.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: At least one racist hacker was donning blackface, and another prominently showcased a Nazi flag behind him.
[30:29.620 --> 30:53.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: In a tweet describing the incident, AAAS, the Association of African American Students, said, During the cookout, unknown persons entered and proceeded to post a plethora of images, videos, and messages containing racist slurs and derogatory terms who are completely repulsed by the actions of these individuals and offer our support of those who are subject to or in any way impacted by it.
[30:54.340 --> 30:57.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are things that are all too common in the digital world.
[31:00.840 --> 31:02.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, Zoom is saying that...
[31:02.820 --> 31:05.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they've been contacted to launch an official investigation.
[31:06.560 --> 31:09.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: They say our Office of Equal Opportunity Programs has been notified.
[31:09.580 --> 31:14.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's prepared to investigate in the event it has determined that university students committed these terrible acts.
[31:14.940 --> 31:17.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, that's a spokesperson for the university saying this.
[31:18.960 --> 31:28.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Here's a story kind of related, having to do with simple tricks that you can use to prevent unwanted guests from hacking your Zoom meeting.
[31:28.780 --> 31:31.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, I take issue with the word hack here.
[31:32.500 --> 31:39.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: But video conferencing app Zoom, based in Seattle apparently, has become extremely popular of late during the stay-at-home order.
[31:40.680 --> 31:42.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Orders as people work from home in droves.
[31:42.920 --> 31:47.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's easy to use, but it can also be easy for a hacker to jump into your online get-together.
[31:49.320 --> 31:49.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[31:50.400 --> 31:51.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do they do it?
[31:51.400 --> 31:52.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay.
[31:52.160 --> 31:52.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to tell you.
[31:52.860 --> 31:53.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: War dialing.
[31:53.420 --> 31:57.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Trolls, as they are known, use a program called Zwar Dialer.
[31:57.540 --> 32:00.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's spelled Z-W-A-R-D-I-A-L-E-R.
[32:00.480 --> 32:01.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Zwar Dialer.
[32:01.500 --> 32:04.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does what hackers call a brute force attack.
[32:04.900 --> 32:06.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, hackers do call it that.
[32:06.400 --> 32:07.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, anybody calls it that.
[32:08.320 --> 32:09.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's what it's called.
[32:10.240 --> 32:14.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: A brute force attack on Zoom computers looking for meeting codes.
[32:14.480 --> 32:18.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Essentially, it's a software program looking for your nine-digit meeting number.
[32:18.960 --> 32:19.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: And thank you.
[32:19.980 --> 32:21.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: You just gave out that information.
[32:21.260 --> 32:22.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's always nine digits.
[32:22.400 --> 32:23.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: See?
[32:23.320 --> 32:24.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's how you learn things.
[32:24.600 --> 32:25.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: You read news stories.
[32:26.600 --> 32:29.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, what Zwar Dialer is doing...
[32:29.780 --> 32:31.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pronouncing it as Zwar Dialer.
[32:31.340 --> 32:34.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not maybe supposed to say Z-War Dialer, but I'm saying Zwar Dialer.
[32:34.480 --> 32:39.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's randomly trying to find those digits, find active or soon-to-be-active meetings.
[32:39.900 --> 32:42.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: And when they find these, the invasion begins.
[32:43.080 --> 32:43.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[32:43.840 --> 32:48.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Zoom CEO Eric Wan says, We clearly have a lot of work to do.
[32:48.800 --> 32:49.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[32:49.360 --> 32:50.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have a lot of work to do?
[32:50.540 --> 32:51.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't see it here.
[32:51.720 --> 32:54.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: He basically admits the company has made missteps.
[32:54.420 --> 32:58.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: At first, Zoom blocked hackers just using one computer to Zoom bomb.
[32:58.560 --> 32:59.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's the word, Zoom bomb.
[32:59.940 --> 33:06.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: But then came Zwar Dialer, which uses the Tor underground network of computers all over the world to contact Zoom.
[33:06.760 --> 33:10.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, Zoom thinks it's just a lot of people from different computers trying to get into the same meeting.
[33:10.840 --> 33:11.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[33:11.320 --> 33:12.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a Tor problem either.
[33:13.380 --> 33:16.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're circling in on what the actual problem is.
[33:17.520 --> 33:18.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: What I can...
[33:18.740 --> 33:19.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[33:19.360 --> 33:21.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's promising he's taking these issues very seriously.
[33:22.580 --> 33:27.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of the most widely used video conferencing apps, Zoom, FaceTime, Google Hangouts, and Skype.
[33:28.060 --> 33:34.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Only FaceTime provides end-to-end encryption, which I'm reading a mass media story here.
[33:34.220 --> 33:36.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a technical word for most secure.
[33:36.260 --> 33:37.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you know that's what encryption is?
[33:37.460 --> 33:38.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: A technical word for most secure.
[33:39.260 --> 33:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, whatever.
[33:41.040 --> 33:45.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, Zoom is actively educating people on how to stop Zoom bombers.
[33:45.360 --> 33:48.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: But there is one simple trick that provides more protection.
[33:49.120 --> 33:58.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have a password associated with your meeting, even if these bad guys can find it, they are not going to get in if they don't have the password.
[33:59.020 --> 34:01.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: That is what the answer has been to all of this.
[34:02.040 --> 34:03.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: A password?
[34:03.000 --> 34:05.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's been the answer since the 1980s.
[34:05.380 --> 34:07.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Use a damn password on your meeting.
[34:07.280 --> 34:08.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Then nobody can get in.
[34:08.320 --> 34:10.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And wow, who would have thought of this?
[34:11.060 --> 34:19.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's very much like Dropbox and like cloud storage things, like where you would have a file in a place that is associated with a link.
[34:19.360 --> 34:23.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: You could password protect it, but maybe you don't care.
[34:23.380 --> 34:25.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you give the link out to everybody.
[34:25.240 --> 34:27.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's just an additional step, is what I'm saying.
[34:27.320 --> 34:28.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's the same.
[34:28.480 --> 34:28.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not hard.
[34:29.160 --> 34:32.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not hard to give out a unique password to every...
[34:32.100 --> 34:37.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that way you know who it is that leaked it, if it's shared with somebody, if it's even able to be shared.
[34:37.180 --> 34:40.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, I mean, guys, can you believe this is the answer that they came up with?
[34:41.140 --> 34:43.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: They made this into this huge issue.
[34:43.700 --> 34:49.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it is a huge issue if you have a bunch of Nazis invading a meeting.
[34:49.280 --> 34:50.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's so easily solved.
[34:50.980 --> 34:54.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: If they would only tell people, this is how you should use our software.
[34:55.340 --> 34:57.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: By default, use a password.
[34:57.340 --> 34:59.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Use a unique password for every user.
[34:59.080 --> 35:03.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that way you can control who comes into your meetings.
[35:03.300 --> 35:05.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Am I not seeing something here?
[35:06.240 --> 35:06.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
[35:06.920 --> 35:09.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is actually a discussion we had to have at my workplace.
[35:09.420 --> 35:12.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have a lot of Zoom meetings going on.
[35:12.500 --> 35:15.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have Zoom meetings of staff.
[35:15.180 --> 35:17.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we have Zoom meetings of education groups.
[35:17.280 --> 35:18.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have Zoom meetings of social groups.
[35:18.920 --> 35:20.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we have Zoom meetings of other groups.
[35:29.040 --> 35:29.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, why?
[35:30.540 --> 35:31.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why is that necessary?
[35:32.200 --> 35:39.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: And this poor young man had to explain what sounded to me an awful lot like phone phreaking, if I'm being honest.
[35:39.220 --> 35:45.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: He said, when I was a kid, I would just start randomly dialing telephone numbers until I got through somewhere.
[35:45.300 --> 35:55.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: He said, if someone is doing that now, and they randomly get to one of our meetings, and they put the right numbers in, and they get to one of our meetings, and then they randomly guess the password, I thought we'd just let them in.
[35:55.580 --> 35:57.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: But if we can password protect...
[35:57.640 --> 35:59.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was very funny when he said it that way.
[36:00.000 --> 36:08.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I was on a Zoom meeting last night, and we had to go through the protocol for what happened if we got Zoom bombed and had to stop.
[36:10.680 --> 36:12.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Which I thought was sort of fascinating.
[36:12.840 --> 36:24.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: The interesting thing about these meetings, too, is Zoom has actually, and I've used this many times now, hosted a lot of these, and Zoom has been changing things up along the way to improve what they're doing.
[36:24.560 --> 36:27.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm usually an open-source guy, free software guy.
[36:27.980 --> 36:37.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I would love to find a roll-your-own alternative to Zoom that was as dependable, but right now Zoom is killing it, and so I'm defaulting to using it for the things that I need.
[36:37.480 --> 36:39.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, no, I mean, it works.
[36:39.780 --> 36:40.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it works.
[36:40.660 --> 36:44.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: They just need to modify it so that people use passwords by default.
[36:44.280 --> 36:45.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: How hard is that?
[36:45.720 --> 36:47.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they have been.
[36:47.300 --> 36:50.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And also, the meetings are no longer all nine digits.
[36:50.160 --> 36:54.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've seen 10-digit meeting numbers, 11-digit meeting numbers.
[36:54.340 --> 36:54.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[36:54.660 --> 36:55.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're changing that up.
[36:56.120 --> 36:56.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're running out of nine-digit computations.
[36:56.420 --> 37:00.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's not as easy to Zwar dial anymore.
[37:00.860 --> 37:07.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: But also, a weakness there is when you get an invite to a Zoom meeting, it tells you the meeting number.
[37:07.660 --> 37:09.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: It tells you the password.
[37:09.420 --> 37:12.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: If there's a password and you've been invited, you're given the password.
[37:12.240 --> 37:14.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: But then it also gives you a link.
[37:14.180 --> 37:15.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's all in one piece.
[37:15.340 --> 37:19.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: That includes the password, basically, or includes a hash of the password.
[37:19.360 --> 37:23.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you just need to click the link, and you'll be authenticated because it's sending the password.
[37:23.920 --> 37:25.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: People pass those links around.
[37:25.460 --> 37:31.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: People post those links on social media, not realizing that it's giving them the keys to the kingdom, to anyone who sees it.
[37:31.560 --> 37:34.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where a lot of the trouble is coming from right now.
[37:34.580 --> 37:37.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: But otherwise, it's like the old, you know.
[37:37.980 --> 37:43.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm wondering, is there a mute capability in the program once this does happen?
[37:43.140 --> 37:52.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: If it's inevitable this is going to happen, perhaps even an auto-mute for specific phrases we can agree maybe aren't suitable for any meetings?
[37:52.280 --> 37:56.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean, the person running the meeting can mute everybody so that they can't speak.
[37:56.520 --> 37:59.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, of course, that sort of takes away the whole point of having it in the first place.
[37:59.940 --> 38:11.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it just seems relatively simple that you simply modify things so that you can't get in unless you have a unique identifier in addition to the meeting ID.
[38:11.060 --> 38:14.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are the same lessons that we've been learning for decades.
[38:14.760 --> 38:19.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: What just annoys me is that every time something like this happens, it's hackers.
[38:19.980 --> 38:25.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: The Nazis storming into a barbecue online, which sounds interesting.
[38:26.320 --> 38:27.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a hacker thing?
[38:27.520 --> 38:28.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, that's not a hacker.
[38:28.220 --> 38:31.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: The hackers are people who tell you how to prevent that from happening.
[38:31.520 --> 38:33.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: These are just idiots.
[38:33.540 --> 38:35.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: And idiots exist in every community.
[38:36.660 --> 38:46.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think if we can start popularizing the term malicious actors instead of hacker, I think, you know, malicious actors are people who do bad things.
[38:47.020 --> 38:52.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, initially I was thinking bad actor, but bad actor sounds like we're about to give them golden raspberry awards.
[38:52.800 --> 38:57.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: So if we go with malicious actor, I think that's an easy way to separate that.
[38:57.600 --> 38:59.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're just malicious idiot, you know?
[38:59.340 --> 39:02.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't know.
[39:02.100 --> 39:04.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's just I get very impatient with this.
[39:04.900 --> 39:05.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[39:05.740 --> 39:14.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to chime in here in a minute or two because I've done a huge amount of work on Zoom-related security, excuse me, over the last couple of weeks, you know?
[39:15.360 --> 39:16.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're right.
[39:16.480 --> 39:18.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: But again, this isn't the...
[39:18.400 --> 39:25.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not only Zoom that's affected by this reluctance to have meeting numbers password protected.
[39:26.000 --> 39:32.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Other services could be, you know, similarly, quote-unquote, Zoom-bombed as well if passwords aren't implemented.
[39:32.540 --> 39:44.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just that Zoom has been the focus of the ire of these malicious actors and threat actors, interlopers, harassers, racists, whatever you want to call them, in joining all of these meetings.
[39:44.280 --> 39:49.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Other measures that you could put in place are things like locking the meeting down.
[39:49.660 --> 39:52.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Once the meeting is going, don't allow anybody else to join.
[39:52.900 --> 40:04.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or use your waiting room function so that you can make somebody wait in a little digital waiting room while you authenticate them before they enter your meeting.
[40:04.280 --> 40:05.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: It requires some extra steps.
[40:05.780 --> 40:18.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: But this is part of this, you know, perennial problem that we have, which is that efficiency and security seem to be inversely proportional to each other and very often at loggerheads.
[40:18.940 --> 40:36.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: But going back to the issue of, you know, whether this is hackers or not, I think whatever that article was that you were quoting, Emmanuel, the one that bandied about the term hacker erroneously over and over and over again, I think also got the Z-War dial function wrong as well.
[40:36.380 --> 40:50.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because the guys that, and gals perhaps, that were behind the Z-War dial function that allowed you to iterate through all of these numbers to find Zoom meetings, they never actually released that script.
[40:51.680 --> 40:57.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Probably not that difficult to replicate it now that, you know, we know how it works, but they never released that out to the public.
[40:57.680 --> 41:01.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And here's an interesting tidbit, something I found in that.
[41:01.820 --> 41:08.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: When I was looking at the reporting on this a couple of weeks ago, there was a screenshot of this script working.
[41:08.260 --> 41:11.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it looks like an old school war dialer.
[41:11.140 --> 41:17.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: It actually has an ASCII telephone as part of the script.
[41:17.580 --> 41:23.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: When you load up the script, it shows this ASCII telephone, ASCII being, you know, your regular characters that you would see on a keyboard.
[41:23.680 --> 41:29.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: For those that don't know what ASCII is, it's just, you know, characters that have created a telephone.
[41:29.300 --> 41:30.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a rotary telephone.
[41:30.820 --> 41:40.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because this works very much like an old war dialer would when we were looking for 800 numbers, to which there may have been modems connected that we could then investigate and hack.
[41:40.580 --> 41:50.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: But one thing that was super fascinating to me was that in the middle of the dial, of the rotary dial on this phone, was a number.
[41:50.620 --> 41:57.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the number was this, 6.5536 megahertz.
[41:58.480 --> 42:00.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you happen to recall what that is?
[42:00.820 --> 42:04.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's the frequency for the crystal, isn't it?
[42:04.420 --> 42:05.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: That makes red box tones.
[42:06.500 --> 42:07.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's exactly right.
[42:07.900 --> 42:08.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's exactly right.
[42:09.200 --> 42:20.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, in that Z war dial script was an old reference to, you know, the frequency of the crystal that you would replace in your 33 number memory RadioShack tone dialer and create a red box.
[42:20.340 --> 42:22.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's fine, but that doesn't mean they're hackers.
[42:22.900 --> 42:28.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: They can make an allusion to something in the hacker world, or call it something that sounds like a hacker tool.
[42:28.720 --> 42:33.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Remember, the days you're talking about, there were relatively few people doing this.
[42:33.080 --> 42:39.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And now everybody is playing with technology and writing scripts and figuring things out.
[42:39.620 --> 42:40.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's great.
[42:40.540 --> 42:45.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: But to simply say, you know, every time something malicious happens, it's a hacker behind it.
[42:45.980 --> 42:46.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what gets me.
[42:47.180 --> 42:47.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.
[42:47.940 --> 42:51.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: My point in this is that the people behind this, they're from Kansas City.
[42:51.780 --> 42:53.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're a security group out of Kansas City.
[42:53.600 --> 42:57.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: These are obviously people that appreciate hacker culture.
[42:57.960 --> 43:02.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if they were malicious actors, if they were criminals, they would have just released this out to the public.
[43:02.860 --> 43:03.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: They didn't.
[43:03.680 --> 43:08.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: They knew it would have been an absolute disaster to have this in the hands of all these idiots.
[43:08.760 --> 43:10.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, isn't it in the hands of all these idiots?
[43:11.060 --> 43:11.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Isn't that the whole point?
[43:12.420 --> 43:13.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's not.
[43:13.480 --> 43:14.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: They never released it.
[43:14.420 --> 43:16.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: They never released the code for Z-War dialer.
[43:16.640 --> 43:18.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I think that article got it wrong.
[43:18.300 --> 43:20.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, how does the article...
[43:20.160 --> 43:24.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, how is the article banning about the name of it if it's not being used?
[43:26.320 --> 43:26.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's...
[43:26.760 --> 43:27.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's an error.
[43:28.000 --> 43:28.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're not...
[43:28.400 --> 43:33.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whoever's war dialing is not using the script that this group in Kansas City created.
[43:33.420 --> 43:34.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Z-War dialer script.
[43:35.260 --> 43:38.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, obviously they're using some script.
[43:38.140 --> 43:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: If it's not that one, it's some script.
[43:40.300 --> 43:44.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's weird that they would quote the name of an existing script.
[43:45.200 --> 43:47.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, because that's the first one that came out.
[43:47.460 --> 43:51.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the one that was reported that has the red box reference in it.
[43:51.460 --> 43:54.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, I think it was responsibly disclosed.
[43:54.420 --> 44:04.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: The vulnerability was put out there for Zoom to fix without allowing the public to make a mass mockery of every single Zoom meeting during this global health pandemic that we're facing.
[44:04.560 --> 44:07.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, just a password will prevent that.
[44:07.800 --> 44:08.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[44:08.580 --> 44:11.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if anything, I think here, again, the hackers are the heroes.
[44:12.500 --> 44:13.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to think that.
[44:13.540 --> 44:16.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, hackers aren't always heroes, but they certainly aren't always villains.
[44:16.480 --> 44:20.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I want to open up to the phones so that we can hear from some of our listeners.
[44:20.440 --> 44:21.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: We haven't been on in two weeks.
[44:22.000 --> 44:25.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I understand next week we're going to start our spring fundraiser.
[44:25.380 --> 44:26.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's going to be a lot of fun.
[44:26.500 --> 44:28.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Our phone number is 802.
[44:28.980 --> 44:29.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[44:29.580 --> 44:30.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a different phone number.
[44:31.500 --> 44:34.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: 802-321-4225.
[44:34.540 --> 44:36.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's 802-321-HACK.
[44:37.400 --> 44:37.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[44:38.600 --> 44:43.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll take phone calls as they somehow come in to one of our devices here.
[44:43.280 --> 44:45.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully, everybody can hear each other.
[44:46.440 --> 44:49.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kyle, you're looking like you're rewiring things.
[44:49.140 --> 44:49.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is everything all right?
[44:50.760 --> 44:51.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[44:51.700 --> 44:52.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's...
[44:52.180 --> 44:52.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[44:53.100 --> 44:53.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[44:53.720 --> 44:54.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't want to get into it.
[44:54.980 --> 44:55.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[44:55.300 --> 44:55.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[44:55.420 --> 45:01.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: There was something charging that was making some other quality charging noises.
[45:01.760 --> 45:02.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you know what?
[45:02.180 --> 45:04.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was making toast over there.
[45:04.320 --> 45:06.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Everything is so engrossing.
[45:06.360 --> 45:08.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm really wrapped by the conversation.
[45:08.580 --> 45:09.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's fascinating.
[45:09.700 --> 45:12.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I'm going to make it so that you...
[45:14.520 --> 45:16.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that callers can hear us.
[45:16.180 --> 45:16.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[45:16.580 --> 45:17.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, that would be nice.
[45:18.000 --> 45:19.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because they've been able to hear us in the past.
[45:19.660 --> 45:21.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: It takes a little bit of time because we're on delay.
[45:22.800 --> 45:25.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then it takes time for us to go down the Internet.
[45:25.540 --> 45:27.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Then it takes time for people to walk over to their phones.
[45:27.980 --> 45:29.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Then it takes time for them to call.
[45:29.500 --> 45:33.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Then it takes time for the phone system to switch over and send the call to us.
[45:33.960 --> 45:36.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: But when all that happens, the phone will ring and we'll put it on the air.
[45:36.800 --> 45:40.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, the phone number, 802-321-4225.
[45:42.620 --> 45:48.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, while we're waiting for that, here's another gripe about Zoom, or just about meetings in general.
[45:48.220 --> 45:58.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: While we're all working from home and going from one conference Zoom meeting or WebEx meeting to another, what people often forget is that we can just call each other on the phone.
[45:59.300 --> 46:02.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can just give out your phone number.
[46:02.640 --> 46:09.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to... not everything has to be through Zoom, where there's delays and there's latency and there's bandwidth issues and connection issues.
[46:09.960 --> 46:14.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it's kind of annoying to me, and it feels weird that we've forgotten this.
[46:14.960 --> 46:23.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it also harkens back to the fact that if we still had landlines, imagine how clear all of these conversations could be.
[46:23.480 --> 46:34.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Think back to the 90s, back to the old phone phreak days when phone phreaks used to set up these AT&T teleconferences that would go long until night, and everybody was on the landline.
[46:35.140 --> 46:39.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I have to cut you off there, Alex, because we actually have been getting phone calls.
[46:39.480 --> 46:44.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: And for some reason, for some reason, we're getting more than one at a time.
[46:44.240 --> 46:45.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't stop it.
[46:45.980 --> 46:49.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And also, if you don't have the browser right in front of you, you can't see them at all.
[46:49.580 --> 46:50.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's interesting.
[46:50.360 --> 46:51.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think we have somebody on the phone.
[46:51.780 --> 46:52.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is anybody there?
[46:54.260 --> 46:54.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[46:55.500 --> 46:55.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[46:57.300 --> 46:57.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[46:57.900 --> 46:59.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure how I'm supposed to do this.
[46:59.540 --> 47:00.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to hang this up.
[47:00.300 --> 47:03.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to try this again, and hopefully we'll just get the next one.
[47:03.240 --> 47:05.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, 802-321-4225.
[47:05.540 --> 47:08.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry for those people that may have been disconnected.
[47:09.020 --> 47:10.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see there's a whole bunch of calls coming in.
[47:11.000 --> 47:13.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we've done this before, so I know it works.
[47:14.120 --> 47:15.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll just keep trying until we get it right.
[47:16.160 --> 47:16.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Here we go.
[47:16.860 --> 47:18.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Here is a phone call coming in.
[47:18.680 --> 47:19.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[47:19.420 --> 47:20.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the hook.
[47:22.160 --> 47:23.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I have to...
[47:23.180 --> 47:24.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Look at this.
[47:24.100 --> 47:26.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's dialogue boxes that weren't there before.
[47:26.000 --> 47:28.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have to allow the microphone to work.
[47:28.280 --> 47:29.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, I'm allowing the microphone to work.
[47:29.660 --> 47:30.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, here we go.
[47:30.420 --> 47:31.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you hear me now?
[47:32.640 --> 47:33.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you hear me now?
[47:33.960 --> 47:34.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: They can't hear me.
[47:34.980 --> 47:35.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's going on?
[47:35.760 --> 47:37.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Something's different than the last couple of weeks.
[47:38.240 --> 47:39.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, Kyle's trying to troubleshoot this right now.
[47:39.840 --> 47:43.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: We do have a caller on the line who apparently can't hear us.
[47:43.120 --> 47:43.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you hear us now, caller?
[47:45.160 --> 47:46.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, they still can't hear us.
[47:47.020 --> 47:53.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, while we're figuring this out, I'll also remind people that if you're on Twitter, you can tweet at us at HackerRadioShow, and we're monitoring that.
[47:53.240 --> 47:56.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or you can email us, oth@2600.com.
[47:56.920 --> 47:57.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[47:57.360 --> 47:58.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry about this.
[47:58.820 --> 48:00.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is what happens when you preempt...
[48:00.040 --> 48:00.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, can you hear us now?
[48:01.640 --> 48:02.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I can.
[48:02.280 --> 48:02.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
[48:02.720 --> 48:03.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: They can hear us now.
[48:03.380 --> 48:05.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever you did, Kyle, don't undo it.
[48:05.660 --> 48:06.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Where are you calling from?
[48:08.240 --> 48:10.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I called you guys before.
[48:10.140 --> 48:10.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Christian.
[48:10.880 --> 48:11.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm from the Bronx.
[48:11.600 --> 48:13.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why am I getting more than one call at the same time?
[48:14.080 --> 48:15.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: This didn't happen before.
[48:15.520 --> 48:16.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really annoying.
[48:17.140 --> 48:18.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm hearing the chime.
[48:18.100 --> 48:19.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm sorry about this.
[48:19.720 --> 48:21.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I closed the window.
[48:21.260 --> 48:22.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: But that didn't happen before.
[48:22.340 --> 48:23.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: So something got changed.
[48:23.900 --> 48:24.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: So scared.
[48:24.860 --> 48:26.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'd like to know what it is.
[48:26.520 --> 48:27.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, sorry, Kyle.
[48:28.400 --> 48:29.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's on your mind?
[48:30.820 --> 48:34.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you guys seem to be so infatuated with the landlines.
[48:35.120 --> 48:35.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't blame you.
[48:36.000 --> 48:36.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I miss landlines.
[48:37.020 --> 48:38.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Even though they're still around, though.
[48:38.240 --> 48:43.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, about 80% of the world has gone mobile.
[48:43.220 --> 48:46.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's nothing wrong with landlines.
[48:46.580 --> 48:48.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like this morning, I think WBAI has a brand new system.
[48:49.480 --> 49:03.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the first two shows I listened to 7, 8 a.m., they had to stop early because there was echoing and there was just so much problems with the broadcasting.
[49:03.920 --> 49:06.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess that's, yeah.
[49:06.240 --> 49:07.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a combination, too.
[49:07.480 --> 49:13.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're using consumer gear as well as professional, like, radio station gear.
[49:13.360 --> 49:20.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: And building a remote radio station really can't compare to the quality at WBAI in the studio.
[49:20.420 --> 49:24.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we end up having to, like, have things at different voltages and values.
[49:25.040 --> 49:27.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's pretty complex what people are doing.
[49:27.360 --> 49:31.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it just shows how a little creativity can go a long way.
[49:31.640 --> 49:32.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Carla, are you still there?
[49:32.880 --> 49:33.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because you disappeared.
[49:34.900 --> 49:35.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they disappeared.
[49:36.080 --> 49:36.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Another call came in.
[49:37.580 --> 49:45.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this is really bizarre because we haven't touched this in two weeks and it's operating in a different way than it operated the last time we used it.
[49:46.020 --> 49:49.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's highly frustrating with technology.
[49:49.060 --> 49:50.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: But we're trying to muddle through as best we can.
[49:51.680 --> 49:52.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Using Google Voice.
[49:52.680 --> 49:55.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to blame somebody, that's sort of blame right now.
[49:55.020 --> 49:57.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if anyone has tips on how to make this not happen.
[49:58.120 --> 49:59.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we have one call coming in.
[49:59.320 --> 50:00.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's answer this.
[50:00.260 --> 50:03.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: This time I'm not going to say I'm allowing the microphone to work.
[50:03.240 --> 50:04.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because I didn't have that dialogue before.
[50:05.260 --> 50:06.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Carla, are you there?
[50:06.840 --> 50:07.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Another caller is there.
[50:09.160 --> 50:10.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I have to allow it then.
[50:10.800 --> 50:11.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[50:11.480 --> 50:13.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I've allowed it, but this is still coming in.
[50:14.740 --> 50:15.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Caller, are you there?
[50:17.240 --> 50:18.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm actually continuing.
[50:18.880 --> 50:19.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[50:20.020 --> 50:22.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this sounds like a recording, so I'm disconnecting that.
[50:22.620 --> 50:25.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: That, you know what, I don't know if we can do this.
[50:25.700 --> 50:27.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because our system is all messed up.
[50:27.600 --> 50:28.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, we won't do this.
[50:29.060 --> 50:32.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll do something else some other time.
[50:33.720 --> 50:35.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll figure it out, we promise.
[50:35.840 --> 50:43.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it seems like when both of these connectors are connected, it adds to the difficulty.
[50:43.900 --> 50:49.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's an amalgamation of a couple different systems, plus all the hardware I was talking about.
[50:49.940 --> 50:55.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: And even in our discussion about platforms like Zoom, I know we've tried other ones.
[50:55.620 --> 50:59.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: We've used things like Mumble and Jitsy is another one where you can run a server.
[50:59.980 --> 51:03.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's try this one call and see if this doesn't screw up too badly.
[51:03.560 --> 51:04.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello, is anybody there?
[51:06.020 --> 51:06.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[51:06.500 --> 51:07.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Turn your radio down.
[51:07.540 --> 51:08.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, turn your radio down.
[51:08.380 --> 51:08.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would be helpful.
[51:08.960 --> 51:09.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's the other call coming.
[51:10.020 --> 51:10.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that's it.
[51:10.540 --> 51:11.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm done with this.
[51:14.450 --> 51:15.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we're all winging this.
[51:16.310 --> 51:21.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we thank you, listeners, for bearing with us as we all figure this stuff out.
[51:21.970 --> 51:22.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks, Google.
[51:24.430 --> 51:25.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we thank Google.
[51:26.330 --> 51:28.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: We thank it so bloody much.
[51:29.110 --> 51:38.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, talking of conferencing, I will mention that this Friday, 2600 meetings are scheduled all around the world, but it's a different world.
[51:38.210 --> 51:42.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, like last month, we in New York City are going to be doing it remotely.
[51:42.470 --> 51:48.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go to nyc2600.net for the instructions on how to get to the virtual 2600 meeting.
[51:48.330 --> 51:50.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, Rob, if I can add to that, everybody will be doing it remotely.
[51:50.610 --> 51:53.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: We are not sanctioning any meetings this month either.
[51:54.410 --> 51:56.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: It just is not safe enough yet.
[51:56.570 --> 52:06.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully, next month it will be, but it's not worth taking the risk and gathering in a group despite what your local government may say.
[52:07.590 --> 52:08.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: We say differently.
[52:09.250 --> 52:10.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: We believe it's not safe yet.
[52:10.910 --> 52:15.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's better to be safe than sorry, right?
[52:15.590 --> 52:16.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[52:16.390 --> 52:27.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Keep flattening that curve and check the websites and social media and stuff for your local meetings to see if your local meeting is doing the same thing and having a virtual one.
[52:27.670 --> 52:31.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you're in New York City, it's nyc2600.net.
[52:31.430 --> 52:37.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you're elsewhere, you can go to 2600.com/meetings to find the homepages of your local meetings.
[52:37.750 --> 52:41.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, I hope you've been reunited with your parents next week at this time...
[52:41.290 --> 52:48.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know, parents, your family next week at this time and that things get better for all of us.
[52:49.970 --> 52:50.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you, sir.
[52:51.230 --> 52:51.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yes, indeed.
[52:52.110 --> 52:53.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: I echo those sentiments.
[52:53.790 --> 52:55.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Look, we're all on our way.
[52:55.270 --> 52:55.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're doing what we can.
[52:56.090 --> 53:01.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think there's a lot of coming together in the community and that will continue.
[53:01.630 --> 53:02.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[53:03.410 --> 53:15.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Write to us, oth@2600.com and please stay tuned to WBAI where we try to bring you as much of the facts as we possibly can.
[53:16.530 --> 53:17.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see you next week.
[53:17.750 --> 53:17.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.
[53:18.610 --> 53:22.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I look up and see a birdie flying high and free.
[53:23.050 --> 53:27.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: I look down and in the sidewalk there's what I see.
[53:27.470 --> 53:29.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I look up and see the sky.
[53:29.570 --> 53:36.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I look down and see the ground I look at you and sing a song about Up and down Oh,
[53:45.190 --> 54:02.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: I look up and see an airplane flying Yes, I do I look down and see my foot And then I see my shoe I look up and see the sky I look down and see the ground I look at you and sing the song about I look up and down.
[54:11.160 --> 54:13.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I look up and see the ceiling.
[54:13.840 --> 54:17.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: If there's something more, I look down and see the road.
[54:17.880 --> 54:19.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Speak on Working Class Heroes Radio.
[54:19.840 --> 54:29.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing a lot of people step up who are either like independent producers or just like regular Joe, working class people, step up.
[54:29.340 --> 54:32.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're seeing basically none of these corporations step up.
[54:32.280 --> 54:37.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Medics, Makers, and Mutual Aid will air this Thursday at 7.30 p.m.
[54:37.280 --> 54:40.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: right here on WBAI 99.5 FM.