Off The Hook - 2020-09-23

[00:07.130 --> 00:10.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:10.950 --> 00:12.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's 7 o'clock.
[00:12.390 --> 00:16.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: And yes, that means it's time for another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
[00:21.770 --> 00:23.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:24.190 --> 00:25.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I ripped it off.
[00:27.190 --> 00:29.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:29.870 --> 00:31.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:32.610 --> 00:34.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't get much worse.
[00:35.170 --> 00:37.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if we could, we would.
[00:37.410 --> 00:38.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Monday, we're on for the best.
[00:39.030 --> 00:40.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's time for us.
[00:40.730 --> 00:42.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that's understood.
[00:42.850 --> 00:43.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Monday, we're on.
[02:06.240 --> 02:07.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:07.940 --> 02:09.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:09.640 --> 02:12.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:12.420 --> 02:14.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:14.920 --> 02:15.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello.
[02:16.080 --> 02:20.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And over in Skype-land, we have Rob T.
[02:20.620 --> 02:21.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Firefly.
[02:21.300 --> 02:21.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[02:22.380 --> 02:22.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[02:23.500 --> 02:24.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:24.920 --> 02:25.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Alex.
[02:27.020 --> 02:27.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:28.340 --> 02:28.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[02:28.660 --> 02:29.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think we're all together.
[02:29.340 --> 02:30.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: This went rather smoothly.
[02:31.180 --> 02:31.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome.
[02:32.800 --> 02:37.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's, you know, even a stop clock is right twice a day.
[02:38.600 --> 02:39.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I guess.
[02:39.480 --> 02:39.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for that.
[02:40.000 --> 02:42.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Alex, are you back in the city or are you still in Pennsylvania?
[02:43.320 --> 02:52.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am still in Pennsylvania because yet again, the New York City Board of Education had elected to delay my son's school opening.
[02:53.100 --> 02:54.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, we will be heading back.
[02:54.820 --> 02:57.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: He started school, but only remote sessions.
[02:57.440 --> 03:02.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we're going to be heading back to the city for a couple of days, at least, next week.
[03:02.840 --> 03:03.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[03:03.320 --> 03:05.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we're all looking forward to that with great anticipation.
[03:06.360 --> 03:07.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Look what I have in my hand.
[03:07.580 --> 03:14.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if you guys can see this, but I have the new issue of 2600 Magazine, which is what it sounds like hitting the microphone.
[03:14.000 --> 03:15.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we actually have it.
[03:15.800 --> 03:24.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, boy, this issue was met with more controversy before it came out than I think any issue we've ever done.
[03:24.300 --> 03:27.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's because of the cover that we talked about this a little bit last week.
[03:28.280 --> 03:35.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the cover was posted as we released the PDF version on our store and the Kindle version.
[03:36.540 --> 03:41.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: A number of people didn't like the cover because it appeared to them to be anti-police.
[03:41.440 --> 03:44.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really isn't anti-police.
[03:44.200 --> 03:45.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's pro-justice.
[03:46.020 --> 03:48.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe some people think those two things are the same.
[03:48.200 --> 03:49.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't.
[03:49.280 --> 03:51.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: But a number of people canceled their subscriptions.
[03:51.300 --> 03:57.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the reaction to that was a mass outpouring of support, which I really appreciate.
[03:57.960 --> 04:00.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I want to thank people who stepped up.
[04:00.520 --> 04:01.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: It matters.
[04:01.580 --> 04:07.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It matters whether it's WBAI that you step up to or 2600 or the HOPE conferences.
[04:08.100 --> 04:08.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: It matters.
[04:09.240 --> 04:15.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: People like us who volunteer time really feel energized when people say, yeah, what you do matters.
[04:16.080 --> 04:19.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're just talking about a small number of organizations here.
[04:20.080 --> 04:22.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are so many more that deserve your support as well.
[04:22.940 --> 04:32.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: So please consider stepping up to them and saying what you do matters, whether it's medical workers or civil rights organizations or just nice people.
[04:32.640 --> 04:37.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let people know that what they're doing matters and is making a difference.
[04:37.360 --> 04:41.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And by the way, when I mentioned WBAI, let me just give out that phone number because it is important.
[04:41.440 --> 04:44.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's 516-620-3602.
[04:44.180 --> 04:44.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Did I get that right?
[04:45.180 --> 04:45.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, good.
[04:45.940 --> 04:45.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: You did.
[04:46.080 --> 04:47.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was totally out of memory this time.
[04:47.860 --> 04:52.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that number you can call and just pledge any amount and become a WBAI buddy.
[04:52.880 --> 04:57.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what that means is you can pledge $5 a month, $10 a month, but it's once a month.
[04:57.740 --> 05:00.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it adds up to a bigger number over the course of a year.
[05:00.920 --> 05:01.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's awesome.
[05:01.880 --> 05:02.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it keeps us going.
[05:03.120 --> 05:07.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: It keeps annoying pledge drives from polluting the airwaves constantly.
[05:07.980 --> 05:09.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the more people who do this, the better.
[05:09.640 --> 05:21.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if you appreciate what we've been doing here over the years, over the decades, please, 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org and you can pledge that way.
[05:21.660 --> 05:24.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just make sure you say, Off The Hook, is your favorite radio show.
[05:24.820 --> 05:25.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't lie.
[05:25.600 --> 05:26.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: We assume it is.
[05:26.860 --> 05:27.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're listening now.
[05:28.160 --> 05:30.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: If something else is your favorite radio show, okay, say that.
[05:30.840 --> 05:33.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: But we sure hope you name us.
[05:34.460 --> 05:35.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's certainly my favorite.
[05:36.060 --> 05:37.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: I would hope so.
[05:37.320 --> 05:38.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, how many other shows are we on?
[05:40.740 --> 05:42.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, yeah, so the issue's out.
[05:42.380 --> 05:43.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're very happy.
[05:43.640 --> 05:45.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: This issue is very late, as you may notice.
[05:46.880 --> 05:48.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have a cricket in here, don't we?
[05:48.640 --> 05:50.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have a cricket in our studio.
[05:50.960 --> 05:52.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not to be confused with our audience.
[05:54.580 --> 05:55.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, they're not sleeping.
[05:56.780 --> 05:59.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, it's impossible to find a cricket.
[05:59.520 --> 05:59.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know that?
[06:00.780 --> 06:02.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can't hunt them down.
[06:02.100 --> 06:04.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: You see them occasionally, but they're not making noise when you see them.
[06:04.760 --> 06:08.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you go hunting for one and they get quiet, that's when you're getting close.
[06:08.340 --> 06:09.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you can never actually find one.
[06:10.020 --> 06:10.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah, we have a cricket.
[06:11.000 --> 06:11.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: You might hear that.
[06:12.180 --> 06:13.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that means it's autumn.
[06:13.740 --> 06:15.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's peak time for them.
[06:15.240 --> 06:15.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: It is.
[06:15.700 --> 06:17.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is when they're, like, you know, fully grown.
[06:17.280 --> 06:19.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're starting their careers.
[06:19.660 --> 06:20.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's amazing.
[06:20.780 --> 06:22.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just the wildlife that we see.
[06:23.020 --> 06:28.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because we're spending a lot more time not being in the city and not traveling places.
[06:28.800 --> 06:31.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, you notice the wildlife around you.
[06:31.960 --> 06:36.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some people have noticed things called spider crickets, which are some of the scariest insects I've ever seen.
[06:37.040 --> 06:38.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's kind of like a shrimp and a cricket.
[06:39.320 --> 06:42.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, yeah, it's weird when you see that the first time.
[06:43.040 --> 06:43.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: But now we have crickets.
[06:43.980 --> 06:46.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: You found a katydid the other day inside.
[06:46.560 --> 06:46.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Inside.
[06:47.000 --> 06:47.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they're big.
[06:47.640 --> 06:48.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're big and they're scary.
[06:49.280 --> 06:50.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, absolutely.
[06:50.120 --> 06:53.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I was able to safely capture it and release it.
[06:53.360 --> 06:54.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have wild turkeys.
[06:54.440 --> 06:56.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: You almost ran over a cat today on your bicycle.
[06:56.600 --> 06:57.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I did.
[06:57.780 --> 06:58.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: I did.
[06:58.940 --> 06:59.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[06:59.480 --> 07:00.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of wildlife.
[07:00.360 --> 07:01.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah.
[07:02.060 --> 07:04.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: But getting back to the issue.
[07:04.240 --> 07:04.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[07:04.400 --> 07:05.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: It came out in the autumn.
[07:06.100 --> 07:07.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the summer issue.
[07:07.540 --> 07:07.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[07:08.080 --> 07:08.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're late.
[07:08.660 --> 07:09.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Pandemics will do that.
[07:09.960 --> 07:13.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: But we are committed to making up that schedule, catching up.
[07:14.580 --> 07:19.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: We put out an amazing conference in July and August, a nine-day conference.
[07:20.720 --> 07:26.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And tomorrow, I believe, we will be announcing officially our thumb drive set for...
[07:26.600 --> 07:27.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: For that conference.
[07:28.320 --> 07:36.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, you can see all the talks and hear a number of musical performances and hear the music that was played and just relive the entire experience.
[07:37.000 --> 07:37.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really was magical.
[07:37.980 --> 07:41.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm very happy that we were able to put that together as well.
[07:41.400 --> 07:45.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, we've been busy doing all kinds of interesting things.
[07:45.360 --> 07:46.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Post-production.
[07:46.400 --> 07:46.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[07:46.980 --> 07:51.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Post-production and pre-production because now we have the autumn issue to work on, which we promise will come out before winter.
[07:51.980 --> 07:52.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: In earnest.
[07:56.000 --> 08:02.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Post-production and pre-production and pre-production, we're going to talk about controversial topics as well.
[08:02.840 --> 08:08.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I know sometimes people want us to just talk about exploits and software and hardware and things like that.
[08:09.100 --> 08:13.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to be disappointed because we talk about the world through a hacker's eyes.
[08:13.880 --> 08:18.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: We talk about the hacker perspective as it relates to whatever is happening right now.
[08:18.300 --> 08:23.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what's happening right now, we are seeing all kinds of social unrest throughout the nation.
[08:24.400 --> 08:28.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I happen to think it's a healthy thing when people stand up and voice opposition.
[08:29.620 --> 08:42.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because today in Louisville, there was the Breonna Taylor decision, I guess, where the grand jury gave what I guess everyone expected to be disappointing news.
[08:42.600 --> 08:58.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: The only police officer who was indicted for any crime in her murder was a police officer who missed, who didn't hit her, who fired his gun and hit a wall of a different apartment.
[08:58.720 --> 09:05.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: But those cops who actually killed Breonna Taylor while she was sleeping, they got off scot-free.
[09:05.620 --> 09:08.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah, people are going to be a bit upset by that.
[09:08.980 --> 09:09.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um...
[09:10.300 --> 09:13.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've imposed a 72-hour curfew on Louisville?
[09:13.460 --> 09:14.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I didn't know that.
[09:14.600 --> 09:14.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[09:14.940 --> 09:16.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: You mean for 72 hours?
[09:16.240 --> 09:19.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't understand how curfews aren't infringing on speech.
[09:19.880 --> 09:20.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they certainly are.
[09:20.900 --> 09:21.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's...
[09:21.920 --> 09:28.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we're sort of conditioned to be used to curfews now, but that is the antithesis of what freedom should be and liberty.
[09:29.140 --> 09:30.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Don't I have liberty to be out?
[09:30.660 --> 09:41.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: And especially if I'm out exercising my First Amendment right, but apparently we're supposed to accept that, uh, yes, six, um, nine, nine o'clock to 630.
[09:41.480 --> 09:43.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they already arrested, like, eight people.
[09:43.480 --> 09:43.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, wait, that's not 72 hours.
[09:43.960 --> 09:44.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hold on.
[09:44.180 --> 09:45.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: You mean 472 hours?
[09:45.280 --> 09:50.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Every day, for three days, it will be, uh, a curfew in effect from nine to 630 a.m.
[09:50.080 --> 09:50.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, got it.
[09:50.600 --> 09:50.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[09:50.760 --> 09:52.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I thought you meant 72 consecutive hours.
[09:52.460 --> 09:53.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: That would have been crazy.
[09:53.220 --> 09:54.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they already arrested, like, eight people.
[09:55.100 --> 09:57.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: And people were joking or asking them, is it nine yet?
[09:57.740 --> 09:59.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because it's certainly not nine o'clock yet.
[09:59.620 --> 10:00.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, it's not.
[10:00.020 --> 10:00.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not.
[10:00.660 --> 10:02.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and so we have to accept that, apparently.
[10:03.140 --> 10:04.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't think people will.
[10:04.440 --> 10:08.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think people are, um, are feeling too, too good about this.
[10:08.320 --> 10:18.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think it's silly that the only reaction from the authorities are that they'll impose this curfew and infringe on people's ability to express themselves because of their feelings about safety.
[10:18.620 --> 10:21.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I truly think they're short-sighted.
[10:21.880 --> 10:31.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: They don't understand the conflict they're creating by not having, uh, any kind of consequence for the authorities, the very authorities that are now going to enforce this.
[10:31.680 --> 10:36.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's the irony is that it is the same authorities that are in charge of this.
[10:36.140 --> 10:51.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I would, I would, I would bus in a different police department or just have some other, uh, uh, group of people handle the crowd instead, you know, maybe a bunch of plumbers or bakers or somebody like that, because these are the people that are responsible for what happened,
[10:51.240 --> 10:54.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: for the injustice that is, is being protested against.
[10:54.200 --> 10:58.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're currently watching on our, our screen, WLKY, which is a TV station in Louisville.
[10:59.140 --> 11:01.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, so we're able to see what's going on right now.
[11:01.580 --> 11:11.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And one, one, uh, uh, person who was speaking to a reporter said something I thought was, was quite eloquent, saying that these are always peaceful protests until the cops arrive.
[11:11.980 --> 11:13.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's so true.
[11:13.620 --> 11:30.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And having been in some demonstrations, both intentionally and unintentionally, like in 2004, I can attest to that, that people generally are chanting and holding signs, but then cops show up and they start pushing, they start pushing, they start hitting with their batons,
[11:30.400 --> 11:34.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: they start barking out orders to people or just getting in their face.
[11:34.380 --> 11:35.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's when things turn.
[11:36.400 --> 11:46.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, if you let people alone and let them express themselves for a while, it usually turns out a lot better, but for some reason that is considered something unacceptable.
[11:47.200 --> 12:00.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they don't like when it becomes concentrated enough to be, uh, uh, uh, viable or something that people will hear, or that is a statement in and of itself, a sort of autonomous gathering of speech.
[12:00.460 --> 12:14.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, and, um, uh, their attitude is let's disperse that speech at the soonest, uh, a sign that it's growing into something that they deem, uh, might be, uh, outside of their control.
[12:14.300 --> 12:25.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right now we're looking at live video from Jefferson Square Park in Louisville, and I see maybe three, four dozen people, um, gathered around a circle with Breonna Taylor's picture and a whole bunch of signs.
[12:25.480 --> 12:27.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: How is this a threat to anybody?
[12:27.420 --> 12:31.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: These people are standing in, in, in solemn remembrance.
[12:31.260 --> 12:37.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, and, and in a few minutes, I'm, I'm certain, uh, the cops will arrive and start pushing them.
[12:37.520 --> 12:38.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's when things will change.
[12:39.160 --> 12:52.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mark my words, but in true Orwellian style, and this is something we love to come back to on the, on this program, the narrative has been changed so that when people see black lives matter, or when people see demonstrators in the street, they pivot to writing,
[12:52.480 --> 12:59.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: they pivot to civil unrest and violence, and they completely ignore the reason why they're out there in the first place.
[12:59.380 --> 13:12.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is a skill Republicans have that Democrats are, are sorely lacking in changing the narrative and basically taking something that you're responsible for and shifting it over to the other side.
[13:13.000 --> 13:20.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Donald Trump is in, in, in power right now, not Joe Biden, but if you ask any Donald Trump supporter, they will blame Joe Biden for this.
[13:21.180 --> 13:33.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: They will blame him for violence in the streets when it's, when it's policy that, uh, that Trump has, has implemented and backed up and supported that is responsible for the unrest.
[13:33.260 --> 13:39.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, just a couple of words on the, um, attorney general, uh, from Kentucky who made the announcement today.
[13:39.940 --> 13:41.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, people don't know this.
[13:41.400 --> 13:43.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: He spoke at the Republican national convention.
[13:43.680 --> 13:57.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: He is very much in support of Donald Trump and he is on the list of people to fill the vacant Supreme Court seat that, uh, was, uh, left by the tragic death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg last week.
[13:57.680 --> 14:05.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Something else we should, uh, touch upon because that is certainly going to affect the, um, the direction our nation goes in, in the, in the years, maybe even decades ahead.
[14:06.280 --> 14:11.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Alex, now, uh, you are not only a hacker, but you are an upstanding, uh, uh, lawyer.
[14:12.140 --> 14:21.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I'd like to know your, your views on both the, um, uh, the, um, grand jury process and the whole way this has unfolded.
[14:21.420 --> 14:28.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I understand, um, the grand jury got the case, you know, I would assume it would have been weeks ago and they were deliberating all this time.
[14:28.700 --> 14:31.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: They got the case less than two days ago.
[14:31.200 --> 14:36.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: They got it on Monday and they, they basically had this worked out super quick.
[14:36.960 --> 14:37.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is, is that unusual?
[14:39.100 --> 14:41.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I don't know.
[14:41.180 --> 14:57.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it depends on how much, uh, evidence they were provided that they had to review and the grand jury is, is just going to return, you know, as I understand it in this case, I'm not an expert on Kentucky law, but in New York, a grand jury would just return an indictment,
[14:57.440 --> 15:00.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: which determines whether or not charges are going to proceed.
[15:01.940 --> 15:17.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I was sort of hoping you were going to ask me about crickets, uh, as opposed to, you know, all these thorny legal issues, I have to say, but, um, going back to the, the, the issues that you're watching right now and reporting on, on the radio, uh,
[15:17.700 --> 15:23.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: with respect to curfews, I mean, I, I think there's a couple of points to make on that front too.
[15:23.940 --> 15:30.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that a lot of the, a lot of police departments and cities will get away with this because the curfews are at a certain time of night.
[15:31.140 --> 15:44.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and so as Kyle mentioned, I think he's right that this definitely does have an effect on one's ability to peaceably assemble, which is a right that is protected specifically by the first amendment.
[15:44.520 --> 15:50.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and you can peaceably assemble and voice your disapproval of the government.
[15:50.320 --> 15:57.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, so the first amendment, the right to get together and the right to speak go literally hand in hand with the first amendment.
[15:57.320 --> 16:10.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And these are, these are incredibly important, uh, issues I think to remember, but because they happen at night and people have other opportunities to get together and speak when it's daytime out, you know, the government can get away with a lot of this.
[16:10.940 --> 16:20.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And by enforcing these curfews preemptively, before there's ever any problem, violating the curfew becomes an arrestable offense.
[16:20.740 --> 16:26.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's how the police can get away with taking these protesters off the street.
[16:26.400 --> 16:43.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's how the media can, uh, capture a lot of footage of, uh, police scuffles and, and, you know, protesters pushing back because, you know, look, I think to a very large extent, Kyle, you're, you're right here that this, these curfews present some serious constitutional issues.
[16:43.740 --> 16:43.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[16:43.900 --> 16:46.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: What ends up happening is the debate happens in the street.
[16:46.780 --> 16:48.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: The protesters feel that they have a right.
[16:48.700 --> 16:50.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: The cops try to challenge that right.
[16:50.720 --> 16:52.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, and in turn there's resistance.
[16:52.760 --> 16:55.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then those scuffles, as you said, turn into arrestable offenses.
[16:56.160 --> 16:57.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've seen this over and over and over again.
[16:57.860 --> 17:00.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm just curious what technology, what can people do?
[17:01.360 --> 17:12.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, in Portland protests, you saw a lot of, uh, innovative use, uh, Hong Kong umbrellas, these signs and symbols of resisting the kind of force that's used here.
[17:12.180 --> 17:13.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: We know what's going to happen.
[17:13.460 --> 17:14.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: We know how it's going to play out.
[17:14.480 --> 17:17.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've already, uh, protesters have already been raising their phones.
[17:17.800 --> 17:20.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's going to be, there's tons of media out there.
[17:20.260 --> 17:23.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: So there's going to be lots of footage of however this plays out.
[17:23.620 --> 17:33.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just think, um, it's, it's kind of unfortunate that all we're really going to see is more protest, uh, um, voyeurism out of that, right?
[17:33.900 --> 17:40.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Cause the only recourse people have is just raising a phone and just showing people, yes, this is how you can't protest.
[17:40.580 --> 17:54.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: What I want to know is how does somebody not support protesting an obvious, um, um, violation of someone's civil rights by being murdered in their bed, uh, and, and, and nobody being called to account for it.
[17:55.180 --> 18:07.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, there was, um, I, I believe it was nine out of 10 witnesses said that there was no audible announcement of, um, of, uh, police presence before the door was kicked in.
[18:07.920 --> 18:17.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: So the, um, uh, the, the, the, the person in the apartment, uh, the, uh, boyfriend of Brianna Taylor had every right to shoot at the people who were breaking into his home.
[18:17.500 --> 18:24.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, but the one person who said he heard somebody say something that became gospel, that became the truth.
[18:24.820 --> 18:26.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is the problem.
[18:26.900 --> 18:28.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Alex, maybe you could speak to this as well.
[18:28.820 --> 18:38.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: When, when district attorneys have these close relationships with police, they very rarely do anything that goes against them.
[18:38.480 --> 18:39.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: They work with these people.
[18:39.580 --> 18:42.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: So how can you expect them to actually come down hard on them?
[18:43.040 --> 18:51.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if, if one person says something and a hundred people say something else, well, if the one person that says something is a cop or backs up the cop story, that's the version they're going to go with.
[18:52.920 --> 18:53.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[18:53.540 --> 19:10.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there's, there's clearly a conflict of interest when the district attorneys who rely on the executive branch of their counties, the, the police department, uh, when they rely on the police to investigate crimes and crimes and collect evidence and bring that evidence to them so that the prosecutors can do their jobs.
[19:10.800 --> 19:14.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, one function is contingent on the other.
[19:14.560 --> 19:16.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: They know these people extraordinarily well.
[19:16.160 --> 19:31.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is something that, you know, I've been saying for a long time and, and not just me, but I think scores, hundreds, probably thousands of other lawyers around the country and even district attorneys themselves have been saying, we're not the ones who should be investigating police misconduct here.
[19:31.160 --> 19:33.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It should be some kind of independent tribunal.
[19:33.600 --> 19:52.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bring in a district attorney or a special prosecutor from another county or another state or appoint somebody, you know, who's not a prosecutor, appoint somebody who is, you know, a private attorney or perhaps, you know, this is where the federal government could step in if we had any trust in the Department of Justice to do the right thing.
[19:52.480 --> 20:00.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would even suggest regional, like regional tribunals that, that answer to sort of a national policing standard, right?
[20:00.160 --> 20:02.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there's so many ways you can make it up, right?
[20:02.840 --> 20:06.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, look, the infrastructure is already there when it comes to the Department of Justice.
[20:06.640 --> 20:09.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Every single state has at least one U.S.
[20:09.800 --> 20:10.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: attorney's office.
[20:10.380 --> 20:14.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And most states, you know, think about New York and a couple of miles, we've got two.
[20:14.400 --> 20:17.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've got the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of New York.
[20:17.760 --> 20:28.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, any one of those jurisdictions, if we had trust and faith in the Department of Justice to investigate, monitor and regulate police misconduct, that would be a great fit, wouldn't it?
[20:28.820 --> 20:33.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's someplace where the federal government could step in and ensure that people's civil rights are not being violated.
[20:34.100 --> 20:36.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the Constitution we're talking about here.
[20:36.520 --> 20:43.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: But unfortunately, we have somebody at the helm of the Justice Department who is doing the bidding of nobody but the president.
[20:44.080 --> 20:50.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, again, it's hard for me to understand why the suggestion you just made, Alex, is opposed by anybody.
[20:51.080 --> 21:01.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: But if you go back a little bit and just look at some of the TV programs we all were brought up on, like NYPD Blue, always internal affairs were the bad guys.
[21:01.940 --> 21:11.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when you look at who internal affairs is, they are part of the police department that investigates misbehavior on the part of cops or detectives.
[21:11.640 --> 21:21.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: So we are always kind of programmed to view them, the people investigating, as the bad guys because they want to take down our heroes that we see week after week.
[21:22.040 --> 21:26.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: That kind of thing lodges in your mind so that you realize, hey, the cops can't be the bad guys.
[21:27.100 --> 21:29.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And anyone who says they are, they're the bad guys.
[21:30.040 --> 21:35.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it's weird how since childhood we are programmed to think in a particular way.
[21:35.420 --> 21:52.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: But clearly, if you look at it from a more neutral point of view, it's not a good system to have people that are in law enforcement, working with people on a daily basis, be the ones to decide if somebody is going to be charged or not.
[21:52.740 --> 21:54.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's common sense.
[21:56.120 --> 21:58.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's... we were talking about this recently.
[21:58.220 --> 22:00.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's so baked into the media environment.
[22:00.920 --> 22:11.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, for the past, you know, generations, I don't even know how many that, as you said, the... like, you watch the dashing and sexy cops on a cop show say things like, oh, we can't hold him because we can't prove anything.
[22:11.600 --> 22:13.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we got to let the suspect go.
[22:13.440 --> 22:17.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And like, talking about how that's ruining things and letting the bad guy out on the streets.
[22:17.840 --> 22:21.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you have them, oh, I can't find that last piece of evidence, and we got to let the killer go.
[22:22.060 --> 22:25.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, that last piece of evidence is what gets in the way of innocent until proven guilty.
[22:25.980 --> 22:34.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And... but we are baked... we are fed this image of the cops being the good guys, the civil rights of those accused being the bad guys.
[22:34.860 --> 22:38.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And... and it's... it's really... it really twists one's perception.
[22:39.660 --> 22:40.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[22:40.320 --> 22:42.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I want to follow up that point.
[22:42.780 --> 22:56.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, on the subject of disparities here and... and image issues, you know, think about how... how the teachers' unions are being portrayed, even right now in New York, and holding up school districts, reopening, and... or, you know, auto workers' unions,
[22:56.960 --> 22:58.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: unions in general, right?
[22:58.480 --> 23:14.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, Republicans, you know, those on the right tend to look at unions not as the protectors of the downtrodden, or those who fought for the eight-hour day, or those who... who busted child labor laws, or sweatshops, or... or... or gave us health care, or workers' rights,
[23:14.220 --> 23:15.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: or fought for our hours, wages and conditions.
[23:16.020 --> 23:18.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, they're... they're, you know, problem cases.
[23:18.300 --> 23:26.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: But when it comes to the police unions, the police unions have an extraordinary amount of power, an insane amount of power, really.
[23:27.020 --> 23:34.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and they are constantly getting in the way of disciplining police properly for misconduct.
[23:35.160 --> 23:50.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, one of the... one of the functions of a union, and I think this is an important point to make, as the devil's advocate here on behalf of the police now, but one of the functions of all unions is to ensure that there is due process for all people who are accused of workplace violations.
[23:50.180 --> 23:55.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Due process just means everybody has notice and opportunity to be heard on both sides of the case.
[23:56.260 --> 24:13.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: But there is a big difference between ensuring that due process rights are adhered to by tribunals, and misusing process, and abusing the process to prevent people who have engaged in obvious misconduct or civil rights violations from facing justice.
[24:13.680 --> 24:20.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's what we have a lot of with police unions, especially here in New York, I hate to say.
[24:20.800 --> 24:23.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Except you're in Pennsylvania, but I know I take your point.
[24:23.180 --> 24:23.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's true.
[24:23.840 --> 24:23.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[24:24.240 --> 24:25.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, you're absolutely right.
[24:26.100 --> 24:29.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Pat Lynch was the head of the police union in New York City.
[24:30.360 --> 24:31.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Guy is an unhinged psychopath.
[24:31.920 --> 24:43.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I say that with all due respect, but my God, the things that you hear him say to his fellow cops, telling them, don't do your job, because you'll be prosecuted if you do your job.
[24:43.800 --> 24:46.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're wondering why crime is going up in New York City.
[24:46.840 --> 24:48.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not because people are more violent.
[24:48.380 --> 24:58.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's because people like that, people like Pat Lynch go and tell cops not to do their job and to just see what happens because people dare to criticize the way we do our job when we kill innocent people.
[24:59.380 --> 25:01.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, that is something that is unhealthy.
[25:01.680 --> 25:04.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is not what unions are supposed to be about.
[25:05.260 --> 25:14.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it just speaks to the insane adulation that many people have towards law enforcement.
[25:14.860 --> 25:16.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not healthy.
[25:16.460 --> 25:19.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: These people are here to protect us, not to harm us.
[25:19.820 --> 25:22.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when they do harm us, we need to find out why.
[25:22.480 --> 25:24.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: We need to prevent it from happening again.
[25:24.320 --> 25:26.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's not what happened today in Louisville.
[25:26.300 --> 25:27.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: For sure, that's not what happened.
[25:27.580 --> 25:34.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when you see people out in the street, you ought to thank them for their service, for what they're doing, because that is vital.
[25:34.000 --> 25:36.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is so important for the preservation of our democracy.
[25:37.040 --> 25:42.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's why we're talking about this on Off The Hook, because we care about democracy in all its shapes and forms.
[25:43.260 --> 25:52.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what we've seen over the past four years is an attack on that, a steady attack on that that is threatening to get much, much worse.
[25:52.820 --> 26:04.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And certainly with the vacancy in the Supreme Court now being something that the Republicans are jumping at in direct contradiction to what they said four years ago.
[26:05.680 --> 26:06.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we know.
[26:06.800 --> 26:08.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: We know what kind of fight is ahead.
[26:08.160 --> 26:14.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we know that if it goes unanswered, all kinds of bad things are going to happen.
[26:14.220 --> 26:20.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just yesterday, Trump said that we need nine seats on the Supreme Court to decide the election.
[26:20.620 --> 26:21.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: He literally said that.
[26:22.080 --> 26:32.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's like the villain in one of these Scooby-Doo cartoons, who basically ties everybody to a chair, announces exactly his diabolical plan before the dynamite blows up.
[26:33.180 --> 26:34.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: He can't shut up.
[26:34.500 --> 26:35.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's his own worst enemy.
[26:35.800 --> 26:44.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, that is why they want to fill this seat so badly, so that if the election is contested, which it's already being contested, that's the crazy thing.
[26:44.540 --> 26:48.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: He wants to rig the election and then rig the court so that everything's rigged.
[26:48.520 --> 26:52.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then the very first thing he'll say after the whole thing is, oh yeah, it was rigged.
[26:52.740 --> 26:53.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[26:53.220 --> 26:54.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: For him, yeah.
[26:54.580 --> 26:55.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's doing everything he can.
[26:56.000 --> 26:58.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: So we have to stay awake on this.
[26:58.360 --> 27:05.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have to basically forget about what we believe as far as policies and look at behavior.
[27:06.140 --> 27:13.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if you're somebody who is on the other side of our general politics here, and there are many people who are...
[27:14.460 --> 27:15.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Our condolences.
[27:15.140 --> 27:20.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, all sarcasm aside, look at what has been happening.
[27:20.620 --> 27:21.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right?
[27:21.240 --> 27:24.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Look at the actual statements that have been made.
[27:24.260 --> 27:26.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And ask yourself, is that right?
[27:26.320 --> 27:37.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does that seem a little sleazy that four years ago, my side said that can't select a new Supreme Court justice during an election year?
[27:37.460 --> 27:38.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what they said.
[27:38.960 --> 27:43.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: They didn't say, unless this or this or this, which is what they are saying now.
[27:44.120 --> 27:48.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Changing the rules after things happen to their advantage.
[27:48.880 --> 27:57.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, if it was the other way around, and it was somebody I supported saying that, I wouldn't feel good about it.
[27:57.400 --> 27:59.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's not going to change the way you vote.
[27:59.800 --> 28:00.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I get that.
[28:00.460 --> 28:04.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: But can you at least acknowledge that this is sleazy?
[28:04.200 --> 28:05.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is sleazy behavior.
[28:05.460 --> 28:06.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not honest.
[28:06.800 --> 28:09.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's really not something to be proud of.
[28:09.060 --> 28:10.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just wonder if people can do that.
[28:12.140 --> 28:26.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there's a C-SPAN clip going around from about an hour ago when Trump was in front of a, in front of the press, and a reporter asked him, you know, in the case, in the case that you lose the election, basically, in so many words, asking, will you commit right now that there will be a transfer,
[28:26.960 --> 28:28.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: a peaceful transfer of power?
[28:28.800 --> 28:31.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he responded to that with a non answer that rambled for a bit.
[28:31.800 --> 28:40.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: But then he actually said in a room full of reporters, and this is the direct quote, we want to get rid of the ballots, and you'll have a very peaceful, there won't be a transfer, or frankly, there will be a continuation of power.
[28:41.460 --> 28:43.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, he said he wants to get rid of the ballots?
[28:44.520 --> 28:49.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he said he wants to get rid of the ballots, and there won't be a transfer of power, there will be a continuation of power.
[28:49.600 --> 28:51.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is the president of the United States who just got up.
[28:51.900 --> 28:54.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hang on, Rob, Rob, no, no, no, no, no, Rob.
[28:54.240 --> 28:59.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: You must somehow have tied into Lukashenko, and we're watching a Belarusian program.
[29:00.340 --> 29:03.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Belarusian C-SPAN is the next channel over, sometimes people get confused.
[29:03.900 --> 29:11.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's no way in our country, the United States of America, that our president said that he wants to get rid of the ballots and just have a continuation of power.
[29:12.740 --> 29:19.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: He just said the quiet part out loud, and it's pretty amazing that we're even at this point.
[29:21.300 --> 29:25.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if I should say what I really feel like saying about that.
[29:27.080 --> 29:28.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: But go ahead, Alex.
[29:29.900 --> 29:30.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:31.180 --> 29:34.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we still are subject to FCC regulations, Kyle.
[29:35.100 --> 29:37.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, no, no, it would be more like...
[29:38.260 --> 29:39.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I'm good.
[29:39.620 --> 29:39.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[29:40.080 --> 29:45.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can email us, oth@2600.com, and we'll send you the words that we want to use through email.
[29:45.120 --> 29:45.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's true.
[29:45.820 --> 29:46.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you'll know then.
[29:46.920 --> 29:57.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: I do want to present, you know, one point and then perhaps one contrary point of view when it comes to the Supreme Court nomination here.
[29:57.320 --> 30:06.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is an issue that came up four years ago in the Merrick Garland context.
[30:07.300 --> 30:21.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the sole reason that the Democrats, I'm sorry, the sole reason that the Republicans insisted on not pushing through Merrick Garland is the same reason why they insist on pushing through whatever the new nominee is right now.
[30:21.660 --> 30:24.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's an election year, and this has nothing to do with the Constitution.
[30:25.280 --> 30:30.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: It has, you know, a lot to do, perhaps, with, you know, the composition of the court.
[30:30.740 --> 30:40.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it is most to do with energizing the political base, the lowest common denominator of the Republican Party, to get out the vote.
[30:40.320 --> 30:41.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's...
[30:41.280 --> 30:44.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Four years ago, it was about pandering to the evangelicals.
[30:44.820 --> 30:47.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this year, it is about pandering to the evangelicals.
[30:47.500 --> 30:57.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the contrary point that I want to make here, because, like we said last week, we don't shy away from pointing fingers at both sides of the aisle here.
[30:57.160 --> 31:05.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think the blame for this can be squarely pointed on the fact that the Democrats, four years ago, let this happen.
[31:05.020 --> 31:20.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: They created some bizarre, crazy, idiotic precedent, because they were resting on their laurels, all safe in the belief that Trump would not win the 2016 election, that Hillary Clinton would then be able to nominate whomever she pleased to the Supreme Court.
[31:20.920 --> 31:23.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Democrats had no spine back then.
[31:23.820 --> 31:29.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: It energized the political base of the Republican Party, the evangelicals, and it's exactly what is happening now.
[31:29.520 --> 31:35.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I dare say, you know, this could very easily tip the election back into Trump's favor.
[31:35.820 --> 31:38.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it would be the Democrats' fault yet again.
[31:39.100 --> 31:40.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, okay, two questions.
[31:40.600 --> 31:45.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: What could the Democrats have done in 2016 to prevent it from happening then?
[31:45.220 --> 31:48.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what do you think they can do now to prevent it from happening?
[31:50.240 --> 31:57.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's difficult for me to say I'm not in office right now, but, you know, this has got to be something that has to...
[31:57.480 --> 31:59.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a political issue, right?
[31:59.380 --> 32:03.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is also a constitutional issue, that a president has the right to do this.
[32:03.340 --> 32:10.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not in certain circumstances where the Senate may be controlled by one party and then the executive branch by another party.
[32:10.220 --> 32:11.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're talking about the Constitution.
[32:11.900 --> 32:27.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Democrats should have relied on the literal text of the Constitution that gives the president the authority to appoint Supreme Court justices and use that like a goddamn cudgel to beat sense into everybody else who did not agree with it.
[32:28.040 --> 32:31.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but Alex, in 2016, they didn't have the votes in the Senate to do that.
[32:31.720 --> 32:32.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: How could they have done it?
[32:33.620 --> 32:34.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry, say that again, Amanda?
[32:34.760 --> 32:39.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: In 2016, they didn't have the votes in the Senate to push forward a vote.
[32:39.300 --> 32:40.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: So how could they have done this?
[32:41.080 --> 32:43.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they have to make the constitutional argument.
[32:44.140 --> 32:49.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have to insist that people do their constitutional duties of pushing forward this kind of vote.
[32:49.520 --> 33:02.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the fact that it was a political stalemate to not push forward a nomination should not be a complete bar to getting something moving with a Supreme Court nominee.
[33:02.520 --> 33:07.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but I don't... how do they do that if they don't have... you might have the answer here, but I don't know how it works.
[33:07.500 --> 33:11.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you don't have the majority in the Senate, how do you push it forward anyway?
[33:11.260 --> 33:12.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know Rand Paul knows how to do it.
[33:12.980 --> 33:14.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: He can always stop anything he wants.
[33:14.660 --> 33:18.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: But how do the Democrats actually push forward something if they don't have the votes?
[33:18.960 --> 33:21.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: They can get stalemated on these procedural issues for sure.
[33:22.140 --> 33:31.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: But then... and if that's the case, you know, it may be very difficult to do something like get the courts involved or, you know, issue writs because you just don't have enough time.
[33:31.820 --> 33:37.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: But at that point, then what you need to do is find a compromised candidate, somebody that both parties can agree with.
[33:37.480 --> 33:46.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what the political process is designed to ensure, that there is a candidate that's palatable to whatever political parties and whatever persons there are representing the people.
[33:47.080 --> 33:55.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what they should have done is not insist on Merrick Garland, perhaps, but they could have insisted on somebody else, somebody that would have been, you know, a little bit better.
[33:55.320 --> 34:07.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I do have to say, though, that the people that Trump appointed, you know, you know, Mr., you know, a beer guzzling frat guy aside, but New York Gorsuch, I have to say, has been a pretty decent jurist.
[34:07.560 --> 34:15.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the latest one that he is putting forward, her main goal is to establish a kingdom of God, whatever that means.
[34:16.820 --> 34:19.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the law careers is secondary to that.
[34:19.660 --> 34:20.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: That sure doesn't bode well.
[34:21.100 --> 34:25.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I don't know if compromising even further is the answer.
[34:25.140 --> 34:27.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't sound like that's really moving forward with strength.
[34:28.580 --> 34:35.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think what needs to be done, I think you touched upon this, is that, yeah, they have to get in the way of anything happening.
[34:35.120 --> 34:37.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think we as citizens can do that as well.
[34:37.740 --> 34:42.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, basically prevent any work from getting done until this is put aside.
[34:42.240 --> 34:45.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: For one thing, the stimulus package needs to go through.
[34:45.300 --> 34:46.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is more important.
[34:46.380 --> 34:47.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's something the Senate has been sitting on.
[34:48.060 --> 34:51.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: They need to do that before they do anything involving Supreme Court justices.
[34:51.780 --> 34:59.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we have to raise our voices and surround buildings and cause denial of service attacks, whatever it takes to shut them down.
[34:59.600 --> 35:02.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: That needs to happen because they're clearly not listening.
[35:03.660 --> 35:04.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I agree.
[35:05.100 --> 35:06.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: And while you were talking, I was thinking about this, too.
[35:07.000 --> 35:10.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, procedurally, I don't know if there really is much that the Democrats can do.
[35:10.820 --> 35:16.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they have to be able to wield better political pressure in a concerted manner.
[35:16.440 --> 35:26.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think we saw this a lot when it came to questioning anybody with the Russian investigations, with the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
[35:26.480 --> 35:34.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: It all seemed like when the Democrats were questioning these witnesses, it was all about whoever the person was doing the questioning.
[35:34.360 --> 35:39.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: When the Republicans were doing this, there was a much more consistent theme between questioners.
[35:39.800 --> 35:42.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there was a... and the transitions were good.
[35:43.080 --> 35:46.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have to be less out for themselves and more out for the country.
[35:46.480 --> 36:02.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I really believe that the... had this not happened in 2016, we would have had a much better chance at, you know, avoiding this ridiculous and thorny situation that we have with Ruth Bader Ginsburg's replacement now.
[36:02.960 --> 36:11.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I do have to say one sort of anecdote about RBG is that I actually had lunch with her in 2006 in D.C.
[36:12.360 --> 36:17.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: When I was a... I was a law clerk, I was clerking for the chief judge of the U.S.
[36:17.640 --> 36:18.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.
[36:18.920 --> 36:20.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were like the Supreme Court of the military.
[36:20.760 --> 36:27.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And once a year or once a term, I'm not sure what it was, but she hosted a lunch for federal law clerks down in D.C.
[36:28.100 --> 36:33.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so it wasn't just she and I, you know, but, you know, about 20 other people there in the room.
[36:33.380 --> 36:37.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it was pretty cool to sit in the room and have lunch with Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
[36:37.660 --> 36:43.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: And and I think, you know, the most amazing thing that I took away from it was that she was just a person.
[36:43.880 --> 36:45.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, she she was approachable.
[36:45.720 --> 36:49.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: She was kind, personable, not imposing.
[36:50.100 --> 36:58.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then four years later, we had a case in front of in front of the Supreme Court where we were arguing on behalf of U.S.
[36:58.540 --> 37:05.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: service members and civilians and against the United States government, Iraq and and Ruth Bader Ginsburg asked one question of the government.
[37:05.960 --> 37:07.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: We wound up actually losing the case in the Supreme Court.
[37:08.080 --> 37:13.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: But because she asked one question to the government, it seemed to pin them down.
[37:13.040 --> 37:15.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: And after the case, we were able to get a good settlement.
[37:15.600 --> 37:20.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I have a tremendous respect and great memories of our BG.
[37:21.660 --> 37:26.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, let's let's get to a couple of the stories, too, so because there is a lot going on.
[37:27.580 --> 37:37.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is kind of a long lines of what we've been talking about as far as self-reflection and looking at with a critical eye at at people that you're supposedly aligned with.
[37:37.780 --> 37:43.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: German authorities said last Thursday, what appears to have been a misdirected hacker attack caused the failure of I.T.
[37:43.740 --> 37:45.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: systems at a major hospital in Dusseldorf.
[37:45.980 --> 37:51.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And a woman who needed urgent admission died after she had to be taken to another city for treatment.
[37:51.720 --> 37:56.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I can say right away, you know, if a hacker is responsible for something like that, that is that is awful.
[37:57.060 --> 37:59.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we condemn that in the strongest terms.
[37:59.140 --> 38:01.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they should have whatever justice thrown at them.
[38:02.560 --> 38:06.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Dusseldorf University Clinic systems have been disrupted since last Thursday.
[38:06.640 --> 38:16.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: The hospital said investigators have found that the source of the problem was a hacker attack on a weak spot and widely used commercial add on software, which it did not identify.
[38:16.440 --> 38:21.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: As a consequence, systems gradually crashed and the hospital wasn't able to access data.
[38:21.200 --> 38:24.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emergency patients were taken elsewhere and operations postponed.
[38:24.780 --> 38:27.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the hospital said that there was no concrete ransom demand.
[38:28.180 --> 38:31.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: It added that there are no indications that data is irretrievably lost and that its I.T.
[38:32.040 --> 38:34.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: systems are being gradually restarted.
[38:34.640 --> 38:39.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, you know, looking at a story like this, is this what hacking is?
[38:40.060 --> 38:53.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because it seems to me this is some kind of automated attack that is relying on insecure networks that is being started by people who are looking for some kind of payout.
[38:53.860 --> 38:57.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And all of that speaks to what hacking is not.
[38:57.500 --> 39:02.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: So while I say that if a hacker is behind this, we would condemn it in the strongest terms.
[39:02.900 --> 39:09.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think this meets the definition of what hacking actually is, even though every media outlet in the world is reporting this as a hack attack.
[39:10.040 --> 39:17.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it doesn't take any hacker ability to push a couple of buttons and have some exploit run that that cripples the system.
[39:17.560 --> 39:20.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's tragic how it turned out in this particular case.
[39:20.460 --> 39:33.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: But really, I think what you have to look at is the security of these systems, how much information is is accessible online and what kind of backups you have when something fails, because every computer system at some point will fail.
[39:33.840 --> 39:35.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Am I am I off the mark on this, Rob?
[39:36.720 --> 39:38.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're not off the mark at all.
[39:38.000 --> 39:50.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's a basic fact of information security that everyone everywhere is constantly being bombarded with things like botnets, with things like exploits that come from everywhere from someone on the other end who isn't necessarily a hacker.
[39:50.760 --> 39:54.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just got a hold of some malware package and pushed a button and and made it happen.
[39:54.720 --> 40:00.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when when the victims are, you know, your average citizens, your your smaller companies, whatever, you don't hear much about it.
[40:01.340 --> 40:18.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: When when the victim is unfortunately an organization like this, that for some reason had things on which people's lives depend on the damn net in the first place, that that that leads to things like this failing and actual real world results like this.
[40:19.260 --> 40:32.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, let's talk about the flip side of this, too, when it comes to the word hacker in the middle of March, maybe towards the end of March of this year, when things are really starting to heat up with the coronavirus COVID-19 hysteria.
[40:32.900 --> 40:37.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mark Rogers, who is somebody who is part of the hacker community for a very long time.
[40:37.700 --> 40:38.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Cyberjockey.
[40:38.820 --> 40:39.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[40:39.620 --> 40:40.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's exactly right.
[40:40.500 --> 40:47.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: So he started something called the CTI League, which is the Coronavirus Threat Intelligence League of which I was invited to become a member.
[40:47.840 --> 40:49.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I am still a member of it.
[40:49.440 --> 41:09.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there's thousands of people, many of many of whom were drawn from the hacker community who have come together to try to prevent exactly the type of situation that you had just described, where people who need to receive medical attention cannot receive it because hospitals are perhaps subject to a ransomware attack or dealing with some kind of information security issue.
[41:09.800 --> 41:23.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And these are, I believe, over 3000 individuals now put together with it by somebody from the hacker community who have volunteered their time on a pro bono basis for the last six months to defend healthcare institutions.
[41:24.140 --> 41:25.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the hacker community.
[41:25.520 --> 41:27.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the hacker spirit.
[41:27.060 --> 41:32.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's the kind of activism that we can all applaud and be proud of.
[41:32.980 --> 41:33.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Amen.
[41:33.780 --> 41:43.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Not to say nothing of the lesions of 3D printers and other resources that were made available through the community to help with PPE and other things.
[41:43.980 --> 41:44.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[41:44.440 --> 41:45.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's the true hacker spirit.
[41:45.700 --> 41:56.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Gila, I know you found an interesting story involving a bit of a tone deafness, I think is the right phrase, on behalf of a particular publishing entity.
[41:56.140 --> 41:57.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: You want to tell us what that was all about?
[41:57.780 --> 41:57.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[41:57.860 --> 41:58.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure.
[41:58.460 --> 42:04.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's actually a really interesting collision of things that we take an interest in.
[42:04.560 --> 42:08.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, this particular crew on this particular show, because we like print media.
[42:08.540 --> 42:09.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're fans of print media.
[42:09.840 --> 42:15.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're fans of information security, operational security, people knowing what to do or not to do.
[42:15.360 --> 42:16.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we love all of those things.
[42:16.640 --> 42:19.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they collided today in a really ridiculous sort of way.
[42:19.940 --> 42:43.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so the company Tribune Publishing, which owns eight newspapers across the country, which has had some financial difficulty in general, but especially during the pandemic, they have furloughed workers unpaid, they have cut salaries, and they decided today was the day that it was a good time to test their staff for knowledge of phishing attacks.
[42:43.800 --> 42:50.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: By sending them an email that was a phishing, uh, sort of lure, I guess.
[42:50.340 --> 42:59.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the way they chose to do this was to send the staff of this publishing conglomerate an email that said, hey, we're giving everybody a bonus.
[43:00.080 --> 43:02.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Click here to find out about your bonus.
[43:04.340 --> 43:06.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it didn't end well.
[43:06.460 --> 43:13.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it turns out that they were actually working with a company that exists to like, help people test their staff.
[43:14.080 --> 43:17.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can, you know, phish a hundred of your staff members for free.
[43:17.780 --> 43:21.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you can go to your company's board and say, we need more money for InfoSec.
[43:22.400 --> 43:23.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so they, yeah.
[43:23.820 --> 43:24.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is a whole industry.
[43:26.540 --> 43:26.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[43:27.020 --> 43:33.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's, there's a very, there's a company that lays like here, use this template to test your people.
[43:33.440 --> 43:39.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, we'll, you can have a landing page on our website that'll say, oh, here are three things you need to look out for.
[43:39.660 --> 43:45.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, really important that people understand what to look for, what not to click on.
[43:45.280 --> 43:55.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: But maybe in a company that has furloughed people for almost a month unpaid saying, we're going to give you a bonus if you just click here, was a really tone deaf way to go about it.
[43:56.080 --> 43:58.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is the epitome of tone deafness.
[43:58.840 --> 43:59.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[43:59.360 --> 44:00.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, wow.
[44:00.540 --> 44:01.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, that's something.
[44:01.760 --> 44:14.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Would it have been better if they were saying like, uh, uh, job opportunities or something that still recognize their plight, but didn't dangle like some reward in a, in a really, um, kind of, uh, insidious way.
[44:14.980 --> 44:15.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[44:15.380 --> 44:16.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think it would have been better.
[44:16.340 --> 44:19.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: They should have gone, I guess, completely in the opposite direction.
[44:20.200 --> 44:21.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Nothing employment related.
[44:22.080 --> 44:28.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing employment related and not, and not had the spoof address that sent it be from the head office of the organization.
[44:28.720 --> 44:36.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like just every single thing they did in this particular circumstance was so poorly timed and poorly thought out.
[44:36.300 --> 44:43.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the amazing thing is that, uh, we'd also like to thank some friends of the show who retweeted this that helped this come into our consciousness today.
[44:44.540 --> 44:53.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we're seeing reports from journalists who are losing their newsrooms and this is what happened to them today.
[44:53.140 --> 44:58.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really excited or interested at least to see how this is going to get covered in the future in the next couple of days.
[44:58.880 --> 44:59.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Very, very interesting story.
[45:00.140 --> 45:01.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, wow.
[45:01.200 --> 45:04.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're watching footage, uh, continuing from, from Louisville, WLKY.
[45:04.940 --> 45:05.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[45:05.140 --> 45:06.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's a trash can fire.
[45:06.220 --> 45:07.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: A trash can fire.
[45:07.220 --> 45:07.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[45:08.280 --> 45:08.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: The horror.
[45:09.300 --> 45:09.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Crazy.
[45:09.560 --> 45:17.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they were focusing on these people walking down the street, which honestly, uh, in midtown Manhattan, there'd be 10 times as many people walking down the street at any time in normal situation.
[45:17.220 --> 45:18.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, it's, it's not a threat.
[45:19.100 --> 45:20.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Somebody just put it out with water bottles.
[45:20.900 --> 45:21.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: How about that?
[45:21.900 --> 45:22.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[45:22.000 --> 45:22.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Look at that.
[45:22.360 --> 45:23.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's a peaceful protest.
[45:23.720 --> 45:24.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[45:24.760 --> 45:27.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I want to read a letter actually that we got, um, from, from a listener.
[45:28.040 --> 45:29.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Again, you can write a letter to us.
[45:29.240 --> 45:30.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: oth@2600.com.
[45:31.100 --> 45:33.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: And let's see if we can fit this in before we run out of time.
[45:33.860 --> 45:37.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, this, uh, this letter comes from David.
[45:37.500 --> 45:40.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, he says, congratulations on your persistence and staying on the air.
[45:40.500 --> 45:43.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: You've ridden an incredible roller coaster over the past two years.
[45:43.300 --> 45:44.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bravo for surviving.
[45:44.540 --> 45:45.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for acknowledging that.
[45:45.720 --> 45:46.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some show feedback.
[45:47.400 --> 45:50.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: While the bulk of your show has moved from hacking to politics.
[45:50.200 --> 45:50.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-oh.
[45:50.940 --> 45:53.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's still very entertaining and enlightening.
[45:53.440 --> 45:53.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[45:53.800 --> 45:57.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: To make this show even better, consider adding some diversity of thought to the discussion.
[45:58.100 --> 45:59.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is already too condescending for me.
[46:00.100 --> 46:00.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, okay.
[46:00.740 --> 46:02.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you can just sit in the corner there.
[46:02.440 --> 46:03.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Try to find the cricket.
[46:03.700 --> 46:06.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, yes, I know the show airs in blue NYC.
[46:07.060 --> 46:07.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-oh again.
[46:08.080 --> 46:11.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, but many of us around the world listen to this dream.
[46:11.360 --> 46:13.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: We agree diversity makes things better.
[46:13.040 --> 46:15.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the world is currently suffering from tribalism.
[46:16.180 --> 46:24.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whether it's BLM, LGBTQ+, or MAGA, people have become hyper-focused and only listened to their own tribes.
[46:24.880 --> 46:29.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Without the tribalism outlet of professional sports, the world shifted to politics.
[46:29.100 --> 46:31.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's not really how it happened.
[46:31.540 --> 46:35.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: People were talking about these issues well before sports stopped.
[46:35.760 --> 46:38.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sports logos were replaced by BLM or MAGA gear.
[46:39.120 --> 46:40.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eh, not really sure about that.
[46:40.360 --> 46:45.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Too often with today's social media, people only surround themselves with others who think the way they think.
[46:46.100 --> 46:47.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that is true.
[46:47.340 --> 46:48.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is true to a great degree.
[46:49.180 --> 46:54.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, they only follow those who think the way they do and it leads to a lack of understanding and greater division.
[46:54.760 --> 46:57.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: When is the last time you had a MAGA on air?
[46:57.900 --> 46:58.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[46:58.100 --> 47:01.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've never heard of anybody referred to as a MAGA before, but...
[47:01.680 --> 47:02.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[47:02.360 --> 47:03.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, okay.
[47:03.500 --> 47:03.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um...
[47:03.940 --> 47:07.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just wanted to report the protestors are marching past the central office in Louisville.
[47:07.700 --> 47:08.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, wow.
[47:08.000 --> 47:08.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Look at that.
[47:08.580 --> 47:09.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not very many of them though.
[47:10.060 --> 47:10.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: About 20.
[47:10.920 --> 47:11.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they got the street though.
[47:12.140 --> 47:13.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, anyway, some ideas to consider.
[47:13.680 --> 47:15.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, BLM slash Antifa.
[47:15.360 --> 47:17.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the movement has been hacked.
[47:17.900 --> 47:18.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[47:18.380 --> 47:21.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: About 100 plus nights of rioting in the Pacific Northwest.
[47:22.220 --> 47:25.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Even BLM has said the riots do not represent BLM.
[47:25.740 --> 47:25.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[47:25.900 --> 47:26.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: A couple of things there.
[47:26.960 --> 47:29.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, no, the movement has not been hacked.
[47:30.040 --> 47:38.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, it's people's perception that has, uh, been, been altered based on mainstream media and based on what the authorities are saying.
[47:38.200 --> 47:41.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Even BLM said the riots do not represent.
[47:42.020 --> 47:43.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: What do you mean even BLM?
[47:44.000 --> 47:48.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, basically Black Lives Matter is a peaceful movement.
[47:48.480 --> 47:50.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: They've never stood for rioting.
[47:50.560 --> 47:57.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, and to say that even they are saying this, I don't think you really understand what they're about in the first place.
[47:57.400 --> 47:58.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, continuing with the letter here.
[47:58.840 --> 48:02.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, BLM is like the gender reveal party that started the forest fire.
[48:02.460 --> 48:02.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[48:02.700 --> 48:03.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Offensive, but we'll move on.
[48:03.940 --> 48:07.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: The intended outcome has burned well beyond what anyone expected.
[48:07.700 --> 48:10.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And turned into a MAGA fight against Marxism.
[48:11.700 --> 48:12.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Marxism.
[48:12.240 --> 48:12.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: How was it?
[48:12.860 --> 48:15.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Why do we always come back to Marxism when it comes to Black Lives Matter?
[48:16.500 --> 48:18.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I, I, I looked this up just a second ago.
[48:18.940 --> 48:20.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is Black Lives Matter a Marxist movement?
[48:20.740 --> 48:22.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because all the right wing politicians are saying this.
[48:23.300 --> 48:26.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's just, it's, it's almost comical.
[48:26.680 --> 48:33.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, the attacks were made in, in recent weeks by, uh, Giuliani, uh, Trump's personal lawyer, Ben Carson, everybody.
[48:33.840 --> 48:34.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're all doing it.
[48:34.420 --> 48:35.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just fear mongering.
[48:36.100 --> 48:37.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: It, it, it really is.
[48:37.700 --> 48:42.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's no support for any kind of social good or service or reform.
[48:42.900 --> 48:43.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anything.
[48:43.880 --> 48:45.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just too much for them to bear.
[48:45.920 --> 48:51.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: So they've just completely whitewashed it with, with this, this label.
[48:51.720 --> 48:54.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it is so completely wrong.
[48:54.560 --> 48:56.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a, it's a, it's a fallacy.
[48:56.680 --> 48:57.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, it's, it's laughable.
[48:58.500 --> 49:04.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: They, they, they're, they're, if anything, these are reforms that have been, that were due, but blocked in the last administration.
[49:05.520 --> 49:15.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, according to PolitiFact, uh, in a recently surfaced 2015 interview, one of the three Black Lives Matter co-founders declared that she and another co-founder are trained Marxists.
[49:15.800 --> 49:19.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the movement has grown and broadened dramatically.
[49:19.780 --> 49:26.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Many Americans, few of whom would identify as Marxist support Black Lives Matter drawn to its message of anti-racism.
[49:26.600 --> 49:41.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, okay, you might be able to point to the founders who have some kind of Marxist connection, but what the movement stands for right now, and the people who follow and the people who are in the streets right now, as we are watching to label them all as,
[49:41.340 --> 49:42.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: as, as Marxists.
[49:42.520 --> 49:43.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, that is ignorant.
[49:43.880 --> 49:46.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that is completely inaccurate.
[49:46.200 --> 49:46.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: They are not.
[49:46.920 --> 49:47.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And a huge leap.
[49:47.560 --> 49:48.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: A huge leap.
[49:48.600 --> 49:48.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[49:48.780 --> 50:01.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: The personal understanding of Marxism, or its place, or its relevance, compared to capitalism, is wholly different than in a socialist government, which we do not have.
[50:01.140 --> 50:02.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have a fascist one right now.
[50:02.640 --> 50:03.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, yes.
[50:03.500 --> 50:05.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's fodder for another hour.
[50:05.580 --> 50:08.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: The ongoing non-peaceful protests have backfired.
[50:09.120 --> 50:11.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they're not protests.
[50:11.120 --> 50:13.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Looting and rioting has got nothing to do with protesting.
[50:13.760 --> 50:18.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's completely different, and it's usually spurred by police attacks on people.
[50:18.780 --> 50:23.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's also spurred by the overall situation that people find themselves in.
[50:23.180 --> 50:24.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: But we'll get to that some other time.
[50:24.960 --> 50:30.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: The defund police movement, along with the riots, looting, and general chaos, has sent gun sales through the roof.
[50:30.300 --> 50:33.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, you know, everything sends gun sales through the roof.
[50:33.240 --> 50:36.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you can't point the finger at the defund police movement.
[50:36.980 --> 50:39.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Which, you know, by the way, that needs to be clarified.
[50:39.460 --> 50:44.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: It needs to be clarified that, yeah, there are a few idiots out there who think we should abolish police and not have cops.
[50:44.980 --> 50:45.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: I would see how that works out.
[50:46.760 --> 50:49.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: But defund police does not mean get rid of police.
[50:49.200 --> 50:50.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: It means stop giving them tanks.
[50:51.000 --> 50:54.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stop giving them military equipment that turned them into an occupying force.
[50:55.120 --> 50:55.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what defund...
[50:55.740 --> 50:59.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe it can be phrased a little better, but I think you know damn well what it's meant.
[50:59.280 --> 51:01.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry for swearing, but it just gets me upset.
[51:02.420 --> 51:08.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, add to police disengagement, more guns, vigilantes, and the level of violence against minorities will be out of control.
[51:09.060 --> 51:17.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, you can't really point to Black Lives Matter as being responsible for violence against minorities, but the Antifa movement has actually resulted in a greater nationalism.
[51:17.940 --> 51:21.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think what they've done is they've turned over the stones and you see what's underneath.
[51:23.480 --> 51:30.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: AOC's recent call to radicalism in the face of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's passing will only add fire to the MAGA forest fire.
[51:30.440 --> 51:31.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, how about this?
[51:31.860 --> 51:33.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: You admit there's a MAGA forest fire.
[51:33.980 --> 51:35.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Why don't you condemn that?
[51:35.240 --> 51:37.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Condemn the fact that they are burning down the forest.
[51:37.560 --> 51:39.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just literally and figuratively.
[51:39.440 --> 51:41.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was just going to say the last time there was a huge forest fire.
[51:42.300 --> 51:46.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Didn't that spur gun sales because all the MAGA guys were going to go out and shoot the fire?
[51:46.280 --> 51:47.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: How is AOC being radical?
[51:47.760 --> 51:50.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Look at all the other people on the other side.
[51:50.340 --> 51:53.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is what letters like this never seem to acknowledge.
[51:53.460 --> 52:09.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: They point at at what the reaction to the systemic racism is and to various injustices that are going on and look at for the for the hypocrisy or the non-constructive attitude in those and completely ignoring what started it in the first place.
[52:09.060 --> 52:10.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And yeah, MAGA forest fire.
[52:10.640 --> 52:16.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's I'm going to use that term because that's that actually is a good way of describing what's going on on the September 16th show.
[52:16.800 --> 52:20.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I heard you all talking about the need for social justice and activism, Black Lives Matter, etc.
[52:20.940 --> 52:25.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yet 10 minutes later, when the topic turned to China and TikTok, the concept of social justice evaporated.
[52:26.760 --> 52:27.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Really?
[52:27.780 --> 52:40.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe a radio tune to another station at that point, because I remember we were talking about in fact, we were debating the conditions in China and their hard abuse of human rights.
[52:40.960 --> 52:42.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Alex's comments are accurate that U.S.
[52:42.960 --> 52:45.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: companies who operate in foreign countries must abide by local laws.
[52:45.580 --> 52:48.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: But we learned in South Africa that we must boycott U.S.
[52:48.440 --> 52:50.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: companies that support a system of oppression.
[52:50.900 --> 52:51.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, OK, fine.
[52:52.100 --> 52:52.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I'm all for that.
[52:52.980 --> 52:54.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you're going to have to boycott the U.S.
[52:54.220 --> 52:57.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: government as well, because they do a whole lot of trading with China.
[52:57.480 --> 52:58.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, most favored nation status.
[52:59.140 --> 52:59.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that still a thing?
[53:00.480 --> 53:07.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whether it is or isn't, China is certainly not being boycotted by our authorities.
[53:07.560 --> 53:10.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wildly entangled with our markets and economy in general.
[53:11.060 --> 53:13.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: China's oppression is far worse than even apartheid.
[53:13.580 --> 53:14.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: OK, it's not a competition.
[53:14.580 --> 53:17.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm sure people who live under apartheid would have some things to say about that.
[53:18.140 --> 53:20.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it is a horrible system.
[53:21.960 --> 53:35.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whether it's Mexico, Canada, France, China, or Venezuela, those committed to social justice might actually want to stand with Trump from time to time and fight back against big tech.
[53:35.160 --> 53:42.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, why are countries like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the Philippines, Brazil?
[53:43.120 --> 53:44.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Why aren't these countries mentioned?
[53:44.540 --> 53:46.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're all oppressive.
[53:46.280 --> 53:49.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're all violating people's human rights on a daily basis.
[53:50.040 --> 53:55.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And yet the examples that are given here kind of gloss over all of that.
[53:55.420 --> 53:57.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm willing to give examples on both sides.
[53:57.060 --> 53:57.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[53:57.940 --> 54:00.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: All the countries that you mentioned have problems, for sure.
[54:02.140 --> 54:07.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you kind of negate your own point if you only focus on one particular side.
[54:08.840 --> 54:09.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: COVID.
[54:09.860 --> 54:11.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm skipping over because we're running out of time.
[54:11.640 --> 54:11.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: But COVID.
[54:12.120 --> 54:13.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, science matters.
[54:13.140 --> 54:13.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[54:13.580 --> 54:14.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Science matters.
[54:14.160 --> 54:16.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's all we ask as hackers.
[54:16.660 --> 54:19.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: We only ask that you agree that science matters.
[54:20.720 --> 54:21.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[54:21.300 --> 54:22.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: But he goes on here.
[54:22.460 --> 54:28.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: But Wuhan was locked down for only 76 days after 6.6 million confirmed cases in the U.S.
[54:28.360 --> 54:30.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Where is the discussion of herd immunity?
[54:31.420 --> 54:33.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I had COVID back in January.
[54:33.420 --> 54:35.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's no need for me to wear a mask, but I still do.
[54:36.120 --> 54:36.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[54:36.580 --> 54:38.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: First of all...
[54:38.200 --> 54:39.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: You see, this is the problem, Kyle.
[54:39.600 --> 54:43.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: When we call people idiots, they tend not to ever listen to us again.
[54:44.000 --> 54:44.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's not an idiot.
[54:44.940 --> 54:45.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: He wrote a long letter.
[54:46.040 --> 54:47.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: He thinks differently.
[54:47.240 --> 54:49.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think he's wrong on a number of issues.
[54:49.400 --> 54:49.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, no.
[54:49.820 --> 54:52.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've talked about idiots that don't wear masks.
[54:52.180 --> 54:53.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this is exactly the kind of behavior.
[54:54.040 --> 54:55.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's being idiotic.
[54:55.440 --> 54:55.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about that?
[54:56.100 --> 54:56.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[54:56.560 --> 54:58.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just realized we're out of time.
[54:58.740 --> 55:00.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I want to continue here.
[55:00.640 --> 55:01.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I had COVID back in January.
[55:01.740 --> 55:03.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's no need for me to wear a mask, but I still do.
[55:03.920 --> 55:06.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: There is most definitely a reason for you to wear a mask.
[55:06.600 --> 55:09.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: The science is not conclusive on that.
[55:09.620 --> 55:13.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: You might have some issues with science, but science is a perpetual learning machine.
[55:14.620 --> 55:15.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[55:15.120 --> 55:16.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: I wish we could read more of this.
[55:16.320 --> 55:16.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry.
[55:16.820 --> 55:17.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: We ran out of time.
[55:18.400 --> 55:20.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Rob, tell us something about the music we're playing now.
[55:21.300 --> 55:26.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, Justice Ginsburg was not much for pop music, but she was really into opera.
[55:26.880 --> 55:30.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And she once mentioned Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro as one of her favorites.
[55:31.340 --> 55:36.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I found a version of that that was done by an outfit called Adia and Geisha.
[55:37.420 --> 55:40.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's one of Cherubino's arias from The Marriage of Figaro.
[55:40.860 --> 55:42.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think this version of it's pretty special.
[55:43.480 --> 55:43.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[55:43.900 --> 55:46.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if they cut it off on the radio station, you can listen to it online.
[55:46.000 --> 55:47.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll have the whole thing up there.
[55:47.660 --> 55:48.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll be back again next week.
[55:48.640 --> 55:49.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: oth@2600.com.
[55:50.060 --> 55:51.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you, everybody, who wrote us letters.
[55:51.340 --> 55:52.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we will see you next week.
[55:52.740 --> 55:52.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good night.