Off The Hook - 2021-02-10

[00:07.250 --> 00:12.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org online.
[00:13.070 --> 00:21.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: The previous economic update with Richard Wolff will be back on the air at its regular time at 6.30 p.m.
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[00:48.930 --> 00:53.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:54.370 --> 00:58.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:59.550 --> 01:04.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:04.450 --> 01:07.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we live on for the best, expect the worst.
[01:07.750 --> 01:09.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that's understood.
[01:09.990 --> 01:10.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we live on.
[02:19.700 --> 02:21.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:21.960 --> 02:23.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:23.840 --> 02:26.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:27.200 --> 02:28.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:29.120 --> 02:29.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[02:29.920 --> 02:30.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you?
[02:30.940 --> 02:34.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just spilled coffee on my laptop, but other than that, I'm fine.
[02:34.580 --> 02:37.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was a much smoother beginning than last week, except for that.
[02:37.480 --> 02:38.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was going so well.
[02:38.780 --> 02:39.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Don't worry about it.
[02:39.320 --> 02:40.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: That makes it run faster.
[02:40.280 --> 02:41.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I don't know.
[02:41.380 --> 02:42.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess we'll test that theory.
[02:42.780 --> 02:44.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: But fortunately, I had a napkin and I was ready.
[02:44.840 --> 02:48.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Who else do we have over in Skype-land?
[02:48.080 --> 02:48.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's go over there.
[02:48.700 --> 02:50.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I see Rob.
[02:51.540 --> 02:52.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[02:52.240 --> 02:53.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't have any coffee.
[02:53.440 --> 02:54.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: I see Gila.
[02:54.920 --> 02:55.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello.
[02:56.160 --> 02:57.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: I see Alex.
[02:58.680 --> 02:59.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[03:00.220 --> 03:02.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: What kid show am I referencing?
[03:02.700 --> 03:03.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Remember they used to look in...
[03:03.620 --> 03:03.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Romper Room.
[03:03.980 --> 03:05.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Was that Romper Room?
[03:05.160 --> 03:06.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I used to watch that as a kid.
[03:06.760 --> 03:08.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, so that makes sense.
[03:08.520 --> 03:09.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: That makes sense.
[03:09.500 --> 03:10.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: She never saw me.
[03:10.780 --> 03:11.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Huh.
[03:11.420 --> 03:12.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've been having all these...
[03:12.400 --> 03:13.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: I never once heard her say I see Gila.
[03:13.540 --> 03:13.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[03:14.240 --> 03:15.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I don't remember.
[03:15.420 --> 03:19.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: I could fool myself and say, yeah, she said she saw me once.
[03:19.340 --> 03:20.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: But how did you get to be seen?
[03:20.680 --> 03:22.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: You had to write in or something, right?
[03:23.420 --> 03:27.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: You had to either write in or have a generic name that she would have a chance of saying.
[03:27.900 --> 03:29.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I was pretty okay.
[03:29.440 --> 03:29.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[03:30.140 --> 03:34.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Every time she saw Rob or Robbie or Bobby or Robert or whoever, like, I took it.
[03:34.660 --> 03:39.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've been having all these childhood memories of things like that.
[03:39.740 --> 03:43.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the other day, I just remembered the breakfast cereal Wheatina.
[03:44.080 --> 03:45.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Did anybody ever have Wheatina?
[03:46.040 --> 03:47.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: See, nobody remembers this.
[03:48.240 --> 03:52.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Any listeners out there that remember this cereal, it was the counterpart to oatmeal.
[03:52.360 --> 03:53.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, it might have even predated it.
[03:53.980 --> 03:56.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Spelled W-H-E-A-T-I-N-A.
[03:56.860 --> 03:58.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it was spelled that way.
[03:58.200 --> 03:58.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't really know.
[03:59.760 --> 04:00.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[04:00.340 --> 04:04.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, that's my trip down memory lane, whether it exists or not.
[04:04.560 --> 04:05.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm still wiping the coffee off of me.
[04:05.820 --> 04:07.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you need a mop or something?
[04:07.540 --> 04:07.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I'm all right.
[04:07.720 --> 04:08.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm all right.
[04:08.020 --> 04:10.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've got these little notepads that I can use.
[04:10.220 --> 04:11.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're pretty absorbent.
[04:12.020 --> 04:13.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: So how are you guys doing?
[04:16.040 --> 04:16.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're okay.
[04:16.800 --> 04:21.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've been watching television for most of the afternoon and evening.
[04:22.200 --> 04:23.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[04:23.560 --> 04:33.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: By television, do you mean something educational, like general hospital, or do you mean something dark and sinister, like C-SPAN?
[04:34.700 --> 04:35.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: The latter.
[04:37.000 --> 04:42.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, actually, it's really good that you are watching the trial of Donald J.
[04:42.800 --> 04:50.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Trump, the second trial, because it is as educational as you can get on television, and it's something that I think everybody should see.
[04:50.400 --> 04:56.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: They should be showing this in classrooms and early, too, like, you know, second, third grade, I think.
[04:58.560 --> 05:11.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just, it's amazing because they're showing so much footage that we'd never seen, so much footage that had never been shared, and footage that we cannot really discuss because it has words that would get us fined in it.
[05:11.440 --> 05:16.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm still stunned by hearing that on, like, being played in the Senate.
[05:16.280 --> 05:17.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I shouldn't be, but I am.
[05:18.040 --> 05:19.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is the incredible thing.
[05:19.100 --> 05:22.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, yes, you speak exactly to the things I've been thinking about as well.
[05:22.860 --> 05:27.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: But those films, very well produced.
[05:27.980 --> 05:32.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Who knew that Democrats could piece together documentary footage so well?
[05:32.160 --> 05:33.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they did a good job.
[05:33.620 --> 05:34.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Very riveting.
[05:34.620 --> 05:36.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, yes, uncensored.
[05:37.000 --> 05:46.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: The thing is, every broadcast network, except, of course, Fox, had this on live TV yesterday and today, and there was no censorship whatsoever.
[05:46.100 --> 05:49.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: They were using all kinds of foul language.
[05:49.660 --> 06:00.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, I don't mean to dwell upon this because I think it's incredibly petty to say, oh, what about the FCC, and aren't they in danger of being fined?
[06:01.180 --> 06:04.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we have to live like that all the time, being at a radio station.
[06:04.540 --> 06:06.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have to be very careful about what we say.
[06:06.560 --> 06:13.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I think we need some clarification as to when this sort of thing is permitted and when it is not permitted.
[06:13.400 --> 06:26.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: And somebody, I know, raised a very good point that, well, you know, technically these are the FCC's bosses doing this and kind of, you know, saying we're going to have this aired on broadcast television and maybe even radio.
[06:27.900 --> 06:29.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's just the way it is.
[06:30.140 --> 06:30.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[06:30.960 --> 06:32.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, what's your take on that?
[06:34.120 --> 06:37.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, I don't know.
[06:39.060 --> 06:47.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think the, you know, well, I think there's wisdom in getting this out to everybody, right?
[06:47.740 --> 06:53.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I don't know if we need to clutter the airwaves with it, you know, 100% of the time, you know, that it's on.
[06:53.740 --> 06:57.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: I feel like, you know, people need to make a choice, an informed decision.
[06:57.520 --> 06:59.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's plenty of places to see it.
[07:00.520 --> 07:05.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, I have to say, you know, I followed it very, very closely yesterday.
[07:05.920 --> 07:14.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: But today, I haven't been, you know, as engaged with the impeachment proceedings, primarily because I've just been so busy.
[07:15.720 --> 07:16.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[07:16.380 --> 07:17.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I think it depends.
[07:18.380 --> 07:22.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, yeah, you can see it anytime you want.
[07:22.240 --> 07:23.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Obviously, it's all being recorded.
[07:24.500 --> 07:38.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: But as far as the importance of having it air, I think, you know, if the Democrats don't succeed in getting a conviction, what they have succeeded in doing is getting this documentary evidence out to the general public.
[07:39.380 --> 07:42.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, yeah, like you say, you can always find it someplace.
[07:43.320 --> 07:44.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I think it should be more than that.
[07:44.920 --> 07:51.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it should be something that people have thrust in their faces so they can see exactly what happened on January 6th.
[07:51.560 --> 07:55.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they can't just ignore it or have to hunt it down.
[07:55.460 --> 07:56.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's there.
[07:56.240 --> 07:57.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's there on Channel 2.
[07:57.440 --> 07:58.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's there on Channel 4.
[07:59.680 --> 08:03.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, wow, maybe they had no idea that this is what was actually happening.
[08:03.280 --> 08:04.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was surprised.
[08:04.600 --> 08:15.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Like Gila said, you know, this was really compelling evidence and video footage that so many of us had not seen before.
[08:16.060 --> 08:16.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rob?
[08:17.900 --> 08:30.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, of course, the FCC issue is close to all of our hearts here at WBAI, us being the station that had the landmark case that dictated all that for the rest of eternity.
[08:30.080 --> 08:38.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: But another thing about this footage is how uncensored it is, not only because it gets sweary, but because it gets violent.
[08:38.840 --> 08:42.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are the violent insurrectionists.
[08:42.640 --> 08:47.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: There was footage of a death, the shooting death that happened.
[08:47.240 --> 08:49.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's all part of the congressional record now.
[08:49.840 --> 08:54.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's also – that is something that every single voting human being should see.
[08:54.740 --> 09:06.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: The people who, it appears, don't have to see it are the Republican Congress members who apparently are just, like, looking down at papers or something while these videos are playing.
[09:06.200 --> 09:20.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I heard Rand Paul was looking at his iPad or something, which is shockingly appalling, as far as I'm concerned, to not be – not at least pay the respect to look at what was happening.
[09:20.380 --> 09:22.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: It affected all these people, too.
[09:22.520 --> 09:24.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: They were all in the building at that time.
[09:26.260 --> 09:27.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just incredible to me.
[09:27.820 --> 09:36.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I can't imagine the emotion that some people there might be feeling at having to relive all of this, you know, to see it all playing out and know that, you know, you were this close.
[09:37.080 --> 09:38.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: You were there when it was happening.
[09:39.780 --> 09:40.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, Gila.
[09:40.880 --> 10:01.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: One thing that I've been seeing today, as I've been watching this incredible footage, and I don't mean that in a good way, but it is – it's amazing to see all of this and how much of it was saved by the amazing Twitter user, Donk Enby, who scraped all of this stuff from Parler before it went down.
[10:01.820 --> 10:08.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's here, and it's in the congressional record because of the work that she did.
[10:09.220 --> 10:17.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we – thank you again, but – It's amazing what one person can do to help in situations like this.
[10:18.040 --> 10:27.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: And there are lots of one people out there that can – you know, one person's out there that can do this, that can do different things, add their perspective, add their expertise.
[10:27.940 --> 10:29.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're seeing it every day.
[10:29.920 --> 10:31.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: So don't think that you don't count.
[10:31.560 --> 10:36.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Don't think that, you know, your opinions don't matter or that your skill set doesn't matter.
[10:37.140 --> 10:38.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: It all adds up.
[10:38.300 --> 10:41.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just like donating to WBAI, which, by the way, I'm just going to pivot into this quickly.
[10:42.500 --> 10:45.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Please, 516-620-3602.
[10:45.600 --> 11:00.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Every person who calls that phone number and contributes, whatever they can afford, is one piece of the amazing, I guess, puzzle that WBAI is or just structure that we are.
[11:00.980 --> 11:06.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've been around since 1960, and it's all through listeners like you, all through individual people.
[11:06.120 --> 11:06.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's amazing.
[11:06.860 --> 11:11.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org.
[11:13.080 --> 11:14.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, did you want to say something?
[11:14.380 --> 11:15.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought you had your hand up.
[11:17.680 --> 11:18.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think you're muted.
[11:19.580 --> 11:21.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, mute issues over here.
[11:22.140 --> 11:24.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think you were acting like an auctioneer, I think.
[11:25.100 --> 11:35.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, I think to Gila's point here, I think it is incredibly important to see this in the congressional record and to bounce off what Rob had said.
[11:36.180 --> 11:40.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: What I was really shocked about was just, you know, the sounds.
[11:40.060 --> 11:44.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, when you hear that, even if you had your eyes closed, you can imagine what was happening there.
[11:44.440 --> 11:44.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was terrible.
[11:45.000 --> 11:48.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was really woven together, I think, very, very effectively.
[11:48.200 --> 11:58.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: It made a great case for creating a nexus between the president's words and the actions that flowed very proximately thereafter.
[11:58.420 --> 12:02.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is the case that they're trying to make.
[12:02.420 --> 12:09.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: When you saw the lawyers for the president take up their case, you know, it was a completely different story.
[12:10.060 --> 12:19.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I don't want to cast aspersions on other members of the bar, but those particular types of those presentations were rather disjointed, rambling.
[12:19.380 --> 12:29.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it seemed to me like the Democrats, and I say this lovingly, the Democrats for once really had their act together.
[12:29.540 --> 12:30.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: They were coordinated.
[12:30.600 --> 12:31.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: They collaborated together.
[12:32.120 --> 12:34.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: They put the messaging all together.
[12:34.520 --> 12:39.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: All the pieces fell into the right spot because it really, really matters right now.
[12:39.240 --> 12:53.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: And on the other hand, these lawyers for the president were rambling, and it was scary to me to hear that rambling because they were acting as if it was already a foregone conclusion.
[12:53.780 --> 13:03.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's the most dispiriting part of all of this, is that a good portion of the Senate is not going to act as an impartial juror.
[13:03.000 --> 13:11.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're not going to review the evidence in a manner that an ordinary citizen, a member of any jury, would have an obligation to do so.
[13:11.900 --> 13:13.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: That, to me, is shameful.
[13:13.780 --> 13:16.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's an abdication of their oath of office.
[13:17.500 --> 13:24.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think, frankly, should not be allowed in one way or another.
[13:24.140 --> 13:30.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think jury nullification by the Senate should be something that we can countenance as a nation during an impeachment.
[13:30.180 --> 13:40.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's a unique jury setup that they have, where all 100 senators are part of the jury, and many of them are not unbiased at all.
[13:42.260 --> 13:55.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, what you say definitely rings true as far as Trump's legal team and the way they're trivializing what has been presented.
[13:55.580 --> 13:56.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's worse than that.
[13:56.660 --> 14:15.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you look on Twitter, you'll see things, you'll see senators, you'll see representatives, you'll see Trump's own son mocking and ridiculing the people who were the victims here, who were being hunted like animals and threatened with execution.
[14:16.460 --> 14:29.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: And AOC was being mocked by Don Jr. at one point, saying that she was upset because a cop frowned at her, which was not at all what this was about.
[14:30.980 --> 14:36.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: And all kinds of other trivializations of very real threats.
[14:36.220 --> 14:50.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if you did not believe the threats were real, then you need to see the films that were played before the Senate today and yesterday, and tell me that it doesn't scare the crap out of you to just think of those people rampaging through the halls of Congress,
[14:51.800 --> 14:54.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: and God help the people that got in their way.
[14:55.520 --> 14:58.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: And yeah, the Democrats really got it together.
[14:59.460 --> 15:04.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: But credit where credit is due, the Proud Boys, the white supremacists, the Nazis, they gave them a lot of good material.
[15:05.520 --> 15:08.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they worked with that, and they presented that to the American people.
[15:08.760 --> 15:13.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think a lot of minds will be swayed by that.
[15:13.740 --> 15:20.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: In the Senate, yeah, probably a lot of senators are stubbornly going to hold on.
[15:20.480 --> 15:30.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I can't imagine why, other than total fear of Trump, total fear of him coming down on them, if they say the slightest thing critical of him.
[15:31.300 --> 15:35.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is something, if you find yourself in fear of anybody to that degree, you have to let go of that somehow.
[15:35.940 --> 15:40.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't care if you're a senator or a 10-year-old, you cannot live in fear.
[15:40.420 --> 15:55.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if you can look at what was presented over the past couple of days, and not see that something incredibly horrible happened and was perpetrated by the president, and there's no disputing this, because you see him speaking, you see the people in the crowd repeating his words,
[15:55.740 --> 16:01.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: and you see the people in the crowd acting upon those very words, there can be no doubt.
[16:01.720 --> 16:10.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, unless there is some smoking gun that has not been presented by anybody, there can be no doubt that there is cause and effect here.
[16:10.640 --> 16:20.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: So for senators to not take that into account when they cast their vote, that would be shameful.
[16:21.000 --> 16:24.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I fully expect a shameful outcome.
[16:25.620 --> 16:39.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: What I do think is a mistake for Democrats to keep saying, I don't know if they're the ones saying this, or if commentators on television are the ones saying this, but to make it as if this is... the reason for doing this is to keep him from running again in 2024,
[16:40.260 --> 16:50.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: that cannot be the reason, because that basically elevates him to the status of somebody who is someone unbeatable, someone to be scared of.
[16:51.100 --> 17:01.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, the reason to put him on trial is for accountability of a very serious crime against the entire nation, and he needs to be held to account.
[17:01.520 --> 17:03.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: And he's never been held to account, and it's time that stopped.
[17:05.240 --> 17:06.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead, Alex.
[17:06.660 --> 17:17.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think that this goes farther back in time as well than the moments that were proximate to the insurrection itself.
[17:17.340 --> 17:23.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is part of, I think, the issue that we're seeing, especially with the social media platforms.
[17:23.400 --> 17:32.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the question is as to whether or not they have any measure of culpability in what happened on January 6th as well.
[17:33.080 --> 17:49.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: In that, what Trump was doing since the elections, literally since the night of the election, and in fact before it, was calling into question the legitimacy of the results, refusing to acknowledge that a peaceful transfer of power is what the country needed,
[17:50.140 --> 18:00.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: refusing to acknowledge the results as they were coming in, and then claiming that the only way that he could have lost, and the Republicans could have lost the White House, was through abject fraud.
[18:02.240 --> 18:09.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, it just is incredible that I even have to say this, but, you know, words matter, right?
[18:09.940 --> 18:24.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: And words that come from the office of the President of the United States have held, since the beginning of this nation, a great amount of credence and credibility associated with them, and it has all gone out the window over the last four years.
[18:25.280 --> 18:39.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: The lies and the fraud that have come from the President of the United States in perpetuating this myth that the election was stolen started well before January 6th, well before he told people to march down Pennsylvania Avenue.
[18:39.320 --> 19:01.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: This was a slow degradation, once again, of the truth, an assault on the truth that was allowed to propagate and was allowed to perpetuate itself through social media channels until the last moment, when it was too late, when people were dead, when there was violence and insurrection on the streets.
[19:02.560 --> 19:05.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the sad state of affairs for this country.
[19:05.060 --> 19:21.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think there is still some opportunity for the senators that are in this trial to hear things that they didn't really understand and see it reframed in this trial setting.
[19:21.980 --> 19:36.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's all kinds of evidence that was not something that punditry and cable TV was going over in the days or hours and minutes after this thing had started on the 6th.
[19:36.560 --> 19:45.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I really feel like some of the things they're bringing forth as well as what was already known is really rounding out the whole picture so that there really is an opportunity.
[19:45.820 --> 19:54.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe that's misplaced, and I'm sure there's plenty of Republicans who will not impress insofar as their integrity goes with this.
[19:54.620 --> 20:02.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I maintain that people are still persuadable and they can change.
[20:03.260 --> 20:06.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: And as things come out in this trial...
[20:06.040 --> 20:07.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're not sitting there.
[20:07.060 --> 20:07.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're watching it.
[20:08.380 --> 20:13.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: They have to sit there, and they can't say anything under pain of imprisonment.
[20:14.080 --> 20:15.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm fascinated by that.
[20:15.140 --> 20:16.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: So if they say something, they can be imprisoned?
[20:17.100 --> 20:17.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[20:17.860 --> 20:18.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow, okay.
[20:18.420 --> 20:19.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's interesting.
[20:19.620 --> 20:24.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's like, you know, worse than elementary school.
[20:24.800 --> 20:25.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[20:25.520 --> 20:26.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: I can't wait.
[20:26.980 --> 20:31.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can lead a deadly insurrection to the Capitol, not be imprisoned, but you can say something in a trial and be imprisoned.
[20:31.660 --> 20:33.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's an interesting system.
[20:33.320 --> 20:48.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a serious protocol, but it's really important that they sit there and have to listen and have to pay attention to this, as I said, this thing that was built out and is totally reframed after the fact.
[20:48.760 --> 20:50.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's less emotion.
[20:50.480 --> 21:08.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's still emotion, but I really like the cadence of seriousness and tone that's bringing forth each part of that timeline and the place of the rhetoric in how it substantiates the article itself.
[21:08.740 --> 21:15.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, that's what I hope, is that they are listening and they are judging because that is what they are supposed to be doing.
[21:16.660 --> 21:23.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it would be a very inspirational thing to see people say, yeah, I thought this way before and I realize now I was wrong.
[21:23.860 --> 21:24.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And some people have done that already.
[21:25.060 --> 21:27.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some Republicans have actually said that.
[21:27.220 --> 21:28.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're paying the price for it.
[21:28.540 --> 21:34.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And incredibly, people who spoke out against this deadly violence are the ones who are being targeted.
[21:35.400 --> 21:44.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: But because that's happening, because there are angry mobs calling for their heads, that should only make you realize all the more how right you were for saying that.
[21:44.040 --> 21:50.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think the more people who stand up and say something similar, the weaker those crowds will be.
[21:50.800 --> 21:53.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: The lower their voices will be heard.
[21:54.960 --> 21:57.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: We can't yield to this kind of thing.
[21:57.700 --> 22:03.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: If we do, then the country is lost and God knows what it will turn into.
[22:03.720 --> 22:22.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: On the subject of Twitter, according to the CFO of Twitter, and I'll bet nobody knows who that is, Ned Seagal, I'm just pronouncing it that way because I think that's how it's pronounced, said that Trump's ban is permanent.
[22:22.640 --> 22:29.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: The way our policies work, when you're removed from the platform, you're removed from the platform.
[22:30.040 --> 22:35.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Whether you're a commentator, you're a CFO like me, or you're a former...
[22:35.360 --> 22:36.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why do I pick CFO?
[22:36.560 --> 22:39.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: You are a former or current public official.
[22:39.100 --> 22:46.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Remember, our policies are designed to make sure that people are not inciting violence, and if anybody does that, we have to remove them from the service.
[22:46.760 --> 22:50.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: And our policies don't allow people to come back.
[22:50.820 --> 22:53.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sounds so final and serious.
[22:53.300 --> 23:01.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: The statement comes amid Trump's impeachment trial in Congress, and if he is acquitted, Trump would not be barred from seeking the presidency or another federal office.
[23:02.580 --> 23:07.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Twitter took the unprecedented step of banning Trump last month after some of Trump's supporters stormed the U.S.
[23:07.880 --> 23:08.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Capitol.
[23:08.120 --> 23:13.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: At the time, Twitter said it was permanently suspending Trump due to the risk of further incitement of violence.
[23:14.540 --> 23:22.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: By the time of the crackdown, Twitter had already temporarily locked Trump's account over several tweets that said contributed to an elevated risk of violence.
[23:23.120 --> 23:36.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, Twitter's decision to ban Trump came amid a flurry of other tech company enforcement actions against his account, including Facebook's decision to prohibit Trump from posting indefinitely and YouTube's decision to begin issuing strikes to Trump's video channel.
[23:37.120 --> 23:39.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't think that's undemocratic at all.
[23:39.720 --> 23:42.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that is basically in response to what people want.
[23:43.300 --> 23:45.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And people don't want this crap.
[23:45.660 --> 23:47.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've said so in elections.
[23:47.900 --> 23:55.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've said so to the CFOs and to all kinds of other officials from these tech companies.
[23:57.120 --> 24:00.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's something that we need to really be responsible for.
[24:00.660 --> 24:05.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's entertaining to have all of this craziness in front of us.
[24:06.080 --> 24:10.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I think we all see now how detrimental it ultimately can be.
[24:10.180 --> 24:10.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead, Alex.
[24:12.140 --> 24:29.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's also a question of business in the bottom line for these types of platforms as well, because if they turn a blind eye to this kind of violence, this kind of fomenting of insurrection, sedition, whatever you want to call it, that results in death and bodily injury,
[24:29.580 --> 24:46.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: you can damn well be sure that they're going to be named in a slew of lawsuits for failing to do something, for knowing that there were reasonably foreseeable consequences of allowing somebody to persist in inciting violence on their platform.
[24:46.740 --> 24:51.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's a very, very reasonable lawsuit that these platforms can expect.
[24:51.700 --> 24:55.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I do think, you know, it was the right thing for them to do to pull these accounts.
[24:56.020 --> 25:15.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think we can all agree that once Twitter started flagging as misinformation and false, some of the facts that Trump was spewing on his own Twitter page shortly after election night, that was when this all started to really snowball.
[25:15.440 --> 25:21.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think they took some baby steps and I think they're going to learn a lot from those baby steps that they took.
[25:21.820 --> 25:26.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully they won't be taking baby steps again in the future, but hopefully this won't ever happen again.
[25:26.980 --> 25:31.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: I really hope that this was a one-off situation that we're seeing as a country.
[25:31.840 --> 25:43.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And maybe, you know, because it happened here, it won't be allowed to happen elsewhere where there is a lot of civil unrest like Myanmar or Turkey.
[25:44.420 --> 26:03.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: But Emmanuel, you brought up an interesting issue that if the ban is permanent, and I wonder about this now, if the ban is permanent and Trump does run for re-election and wins, let's say, in the doomsday scenario in four years, would Twitter give him the POTUS account?
[26:04.920 --> 26:08.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I think the POTUS account would be given to the White House staff.
[26:08.520 --> 26:15.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if it got usurped by a maniac, they'd shut that down too, and rightfully so.
[26:16.340 --> 26:21.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you said that they did the responsible thing, and I agree, they did the responsible thing, but they did it four years too late.
[26:21.920 --> 26:31.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, they should have been doing this when he was calling Mexicans rapists and all the other horrors that he was spewing years earlier.
[26:31.200 --> 26:35.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: And instead, they waited until virtually the day he was out of office.
[26:36.360 --> 26:37.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you see the result.
[26:37.980 --> 26:46.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: There was something like a 75% drop in all these lies and falsehoods being posted on Twitter as soon as he disappeared.
[26:46.560 --> 26:48.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: So these things do matter.
[26:48.100 --> 26:53.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think one aspect where we will see this again is in other forms.
[26:54.180 --> 27:03.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think we need to take a long, hard look at the social media platforms and the grand experiment that it's been when new technologies come back.
[27:03.560 --> 27:19.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: So in distinction from where we might see this kind of thing repeated with this particular type of technology, I think this, just in the trial itself, these tweets are now evidence, like exhibit ABC, you know, and so on.
[27:19.900 --> 27:24.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, yeah, he's not there, but this is also becoming his Achilles.
[27:24.420 --> 27:30.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: At least it's showing him for who he was if it doesn't actually have a consequence at this time.
[27:30.840 --> 27:52.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think we need to really, when all that VC money is being thrown around for the next technology that's going to save humanity and that we're dumping cash into and telling everyone they need to move their lives to and sign away all their rights, like we need to think back to this little experiment and where it went afoul and not just pat the platforms on the head.
[27:52.740 --> 27:57.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know I say that a lot, but I just had to get that in here in this discussion once again.
[27:57.800 --> 27:58.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Go ahead, Rob.
[27:59.760 --> 28:09.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: It also really strikes me how, you know, the right right now is claiming censorship when Twitter like blocks Trump's account or when Facebook blocks Trump's account.
[28:10.180 --> 28:16.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, the rest of the time, they're the party of letting private industry and the free market do what it wants until it does what they don't want.
[28:17.020 --> 28:30.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the other side of this is really questioning not only our dependence on social media and the place it has in our media environment, but also the responsibility of someone who puts up a social media site.
[28:31.020 --> 28:35.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: How much of what their users do is a site responsible for?
[28:35.960 --> 28:39.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's something that's cursed every type of website since the public web started being a thing.
[28:40.460 --> 28:44.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: And as a publisher, there's all sorts of implications there.
[28:44.940 --> 28:47.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we learned all this in IRC back in the 90s.
[28:47.720 --> 28:52.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, when somebody comes into your channel and they're all disruptive and causing chaos, you kick them out.
[28:52.980 --> 28:54.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: If they keep coming back in, you ban them.
[28:55.080 --> 28:59.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, there are steps you take and yeah, they're going to say, oh, you're censoring me.
[28:59.260 --> 29:01.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're keeping me from saying what I want to say.
[29:01.180 --> 29:02.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, you can say what you want to say.
[29:02.220 --> 29:08.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just don't say it here because this is something that we're in charge of and you're quite frankly screwing it up.
[29:08.760 --> 29:10.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: I agree, Rob Holi.
[29:11.040 --> 29:23.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this is what I'm what I mean also and to bring this back around to hacking and communications and telephony, the carriers too because they're the ones that bundle a lot of this software on devices.
[29:23.260 --> 29:25.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: They want all that data traffic.
[29:25.780 --> 29:29.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, again, beating something that I've already talked about over and over again.
[29:29.760 --> 29:43.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll keep saying it, but this is mobile carriers wanting to sell you plans that have some kind of service that you're going to be addicted to to keep using all of that data and do something with this needless technology that just keeps going and going and going.
[29:44.200 --> 29:46.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: We really, really, really need to look at this.
[29:46.980 --> 29:49.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, I think you had one more point and then we're going to move on to some other topics.
[29:51.720 --> 30:06.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: One of the things that I mentioned this at Hope, too, that I can foresee happening with these social media platforms because we saw the precursors of it around the time that Hope was happening this past summer is that Congress started asking them questions,
[30:06.760 --> 30:14.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: started asking the platforms, the big platforms like Facebook and Twitter, what are you doing to combat misinformation ahead of the 2020 election?
[30:15.140 --> 30:20.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: In an election year, obviously, it was really, really important given especially what happened in 2016.
[30:20.400 --> 30:22.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: They want to make sure that the platforms are doing something.
[30:23.080 --> 30:38.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think instead of focusing on Section 230, Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which I think Rob was alluding to, which gives the platforms and any kind of interactive computer service immunity for the content that goes through their networks.
[30:38.940 --> 30:42.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're not responsible for the content and the speech that goes through their networks.
[30:42.420 --> 30:53.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Instead of modifying that, which is a law, a provision of law that allowed the Internet really to grow and to flourish, what Congress could be doing is expecting more now of the social media platforms.
[30:54.120 --> 31:10.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just like cybersecurity is a growing compliance issue, I foresee reasonable measures being required to be put in place by these social media platforms to make sure that misinformation does not propagate to the extent that we've seen it propagate over this last year.
[31:12.360 --> 31:12.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[31:12.920 --> 31:15.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we'll continue talking about this in the weeks and months ahead.
[31:15.880 --> 31:20.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, of course, if you want to write to us, oth@2600.com is our email address.
[31:21.360 --> 31:22.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: We certainly would like to hear from our listeners.
[31:23.100 --> 31:26.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're listening to Off The Hook here on WBAI New York.
[31:27.520 --> 31:28.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're on until 8 o'clock.
[31:28.880 --> 31:31.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: At 8 o'clock, we are doing Off The Hook Overtime on YouTube.
[31:31.820 --> 31:32.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: You go to Channel2600.
[31:33.600 --> 31:34.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's one word, no space.
[31:35.520 --> 31:38.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Channel2600 on YouTube at 8 o'clock.
[31:38.520 --> 31:44.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you'll be able to call us and talk to us in a podcast setting.
[31:44.300 --> 31:45.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll give you the phone number now.
[31:45.460 --> 31:45.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why not?
[31:45.920 --> 31:47.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802-321-4225.
[31:48.500 --> 31:50.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: I trust you unplug the phone, Kyle, so it won't ring.
[31:51.220 --> 31:51.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: It will not.
[31:51.860 --> 31:52.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Disturb us.
[31:52.240 --> 31:52.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good.
[31:53.440 --> 31:58.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802-321-HACK is the magical phone number to reach us starting at 8 o'clock.
[31:59.220 --> 32:02.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here's an interesting story that I saw in the New York Times.
[32:03.800 --> 32:06.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hugh Ma is a 31-year-old software engineer for Airbnb.
[32:07.700 --> 32:17.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: He was stunned when he tried to make a coronavirus vaccine appointment for his mother in early January and saw that there were dozens of websites to check, each with its own sign-up protocol.
[32:17.200 --> 32:19.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: The city and state appointment systems were completely distinct.
[32:20.100 --> 32:22.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: He said there has to be a better way, so he developed one.
[32:23.340 --> 32:34.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, in less than two weeks, he launched TurboVax, a free website that compiles availability from the three main city and state New York vaccine systems and sends the information in real time to Twitter.
[32:35.660 --> 32:40.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not exactly sure why it's being sent to Twitter, but I'm sure if I experiment with it, I'll figure it out.
[32:40.580 --> 32:48.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: It cost Mr. Ma less than $50 to build, yet it offers an easier way to spot appointments than the city and state's official systems do.
[32:48.420 --> 32:53.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's sort of become a challenge to myself to prove that one person with time and a little motivation can do.
[32:53.960 --> 33:02.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: This wasn't a priority for governments, which was unfortunate, but everyone has a role to play in the pandemic, and I'm just doing the very little that I can to make it a little bit easier.
[33:02.940 --> 33:07.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that is a true hacker spirit, is to be able to step in and say, I can do this better.
[33:07.760 --> 33:11.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think this is a time where we really, really need that.
[33:12.260 --> 33:22.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Jeremy Novich, 35 years old, a clinical psychologist in the Upper West Side, started reaching out to seniors after realizing that his own older relatives could not have made appointments on their own.
[33:22.480 --> 33:27.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: He said the system is set up to be a technology race between 25-year-olds and 85-year-olds.
[33:27.840 --> 33:30.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's not a race, that's elder neglect.
[33:30.680 --> 33:44.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Along with two friends, on January 12th, he launched the Vaccine Appointment Assistance Team, a person-to-person effort that began by helping older people from local synagogues and expanded to help those who sign up via a phone hotline or web form.
[33:44.900 --> 33:53.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because of high demand, the service, which now has 20 volunteer caseworkers, has stopped taking new cases for now, and the founders are thinking about partnering with a non-profit to increase capacity.
[33:54.640 --> 34:04.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: The most ambitious online volunteer assistance effort in the city is NYC Vaccine List, a website that compiles appointments from more than 50 vaccination sites, city, state, and private.
[34:05.240 --> 34:13.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: About 20 volunteers write code, reach out to community organizations, and call inoculation centers directly to post the center's availabilities.
[34:14.040 --> 34:27.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Dan Benami, a software developer for Datadog and one of NYC Vaccine List founders, said that when he was searching last month for dates for his grandparents, he was struck at how labor-intensive the appointment system was.
[34:27.780 --> 34:38.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm an engineer and an optimizer, so I was looking at this and saying it feels like we could maybe look at pulling this data together and aggregating it so that it's faster and easier to find vaccines.
[34:38.500 --> 34:40.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: He reached out to a couple of friends and got to work.
[34:41.000 --> 34:44.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: The site went live five days later on January 16th.
[34:45.100 --> 35:02.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, inspired by Vaccinate CA, a volunteer-run vaccine finder site in California, NYC Vaccine List not only lists available city and state appointments but also allows users to click through more directly to some available appointment times saving precious minutes in which a slot could go to someone else.
[35:02.600 --> 35:09.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: These are such great developments and a true testament to the power of the individual, something we were talking about earlier.
[35:09.440 --> 35:23.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I just hope that hackers and people in the computer industry throughout the globe are brainstorming and trying to figure out ways to make this bureaucratic system work better to everyone's benefit.
[35:23.560 --> 35:28.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because I took a look at some of those sites myself and boy, they are discouraging.
[35:29.500 --> 35:37.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: And with everybody pretty much looking for a vaccine either now or in the very near future, we need those sites to work a whole lot better.
[35:37.700 --> 35:38.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rob?
[35:38.940 --> 35:43.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, this is a great example of the hacker spirit and how it can be used for the public good.
[35:43.800 --> 35:44.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just want to give a shout out.
[35:44.940 --> 35:49.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's NYCVaccineList.com is that site you were just talking about.
[35:49.340 --> 35:51.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the Twitter account is TurboVax.
[35:51.500 --> 35:55.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what's really interesting about it being on Twitter is it's kicking this data out in real time.
[35:55.860 --> 36:08.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if you go to TurboVax, T-U-R-B-O-V-A-X on Twitter right now, you can see six minutes ago there was a post about four appointments that opened up in Staten Island and, you know, three appointments before that.
[36:08.560 --> 36:15.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so, so like bit by bit as this data is coming out, you can get it when you need it, you know, updated now.
[36:15.900 --> 36:17.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this stuff is great.
[36:17.280 --> 36:18.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's really impressive.
[36:18.420 --> 36:20.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: I actually found out I qualify to get a vaccine.
[36:20.940 --> 36:27.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the reason I qualify is because I got locked up by the NYPD in 2004 for the Republican Convention when it was in New York City.
[36:27.820 --> 36:33.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they stuck me in Pier 57, which was this horrible, dusty, chemical-filled place.
[36:33.800 --> 36:35.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I developed asthma after that.
[36:35.460 --> 36:37.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: And now because I have asthma, I can qualify.
[36:37.980 --> 36:38.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have a comorbidity.
[36:39.480 --> 36:41.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: I never thought I'd be happy to say that.
[36:41.480 --> 36:45.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: And starting next week, I can actually apply to get a vaccine.
[36:45.860 --> 36:47.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Does that make me first in this little group?
[36:48.400 --> 36:50.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I mean, I had to be born with asthma.
[36:50.600 --> 36:52.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: You got yours given to you.
[36:52.280 --> 36:53.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wait, you qualify then too.
[36:53.540 --> 36:55.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you have asthma, you qualify as well.
[36:55.380 --> 36:57.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that's good news, actually.
[36:57.660 --> 36:58.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead, Alex.
[36:59.300 --> 36:59.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[37:00.020 --> 37:05.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, one interesting point about this and the TurboVax thing in particular I think is so important.
[37:06.000 --> 37:07.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Great show of the hacker spirit.
[37:07.880 --> 37:08.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: I totally agree.
[37:09.540 --> 37:19.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that in monitoring what we've been seeing in the global DNS with regard to the vaccine, there are so many disparate vaccine sites that do pop up that allow scheduling.
[37:19.260 --> 37:29.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think I've mentioned this before, but some of them are also very vulnerable in that they rely on these third-party sites like Eventbrite to do the scheduling for the vaccine.
[37:30.060 --> 37:34.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: It'd be pretty easy to script a bot to take up all of those slots.
[37:34.480 --> 37:49.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's say if you were some adamant anti-vaccine, you didn't want people to get the vaccine because you were affected mentally by misinformation that was allowed to have been propagated from God knows where.
[37:49.640 --> 38:00.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I see this as incredibly important to have this centralized place where hopefully it's a little bit more secure and it's a little bit more uniform.
[38:00.300 --> 38:15.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's also interesting about this from a DNS perspective is this was developed a couple of weeks ago but if you look up turbovax.com that's a domain that's existed since 2016.
[38:15.720 --> 38:18.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Would you be able to guess why, Emmanuel?
[38:19.540 --> 38:21.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: What is the actual name of it again?
[38:22.400 --> 38:23.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Turbovax.
[38:23.180 --> 38:24.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: And how do you spell vax?
[38:24.980 --> 38:26.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: V-A-X.
[38:26.740 --> 38:29.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is it related to the computer system VAX?
[38:29.960 --> 38:30.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: No.
[38:30.900 --> 38:31.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's a good question.
[38:31.860 --> 38:32.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: That would have been my guess.
[38:32.940 --> 38:33.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: That would have been my guess.
[38:34.120 --> 38:35.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Think about turbovax.
[38:35.820 --> 38:36.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sounds like something else.
[38:37.520 --> 38:37.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Turbofax.
[38:39.520 --> 38:39.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Turbotax.
[38:40.160 --> 38:41.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, that was my next guess afterwards.
[38:41.920 --> 38:42.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[38:42.480 --> 38:42.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Turbotax.
[38:43.220 --> 38:44.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Was it now?
[38:44.180 --> 38:44.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[38:44.780 --> 38:50.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: So turbovax.com is not the actual domain name if you want to get to turbovax.
[38:51.060 --> 38:54.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Turbovax.com will take you actually to turbotax.
[38:55.280 --> 39:02.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Turbovax.info is the actual domain name to which you must navigate if you want to get to the scheduling system.
[39:02.560 --> 39:13.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Turbotax people just as a public service can you put something on your website for those people who type turbovax.com and get to you because clearly they're not looking to file taxes they're looking to save their lives.
[39:14.080 --> 39:15.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a simple redirect.
[39:15.740 --> 39:19.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a simple redirect and they've held this domain for the last close to five years.
[39:19.960 --> 39:27.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was registered 19 April 2016 so coming up to five years and they have it essentially as a permutation of turbotax.
[39:27.000 --> 39:29.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: maybe somebody squatted on it and they reclaimed it whatever.
[39:30.500 --> 39:38.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I think it's time to redirect that to turbovax.info I'm going to the site right now to verify where it is it actually goes.
[39:39.560 --> 39:40.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Turbovax.com you're saying?
[39:41.200 --> 39:45.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is exactly the wrong season to be making these kinds of demands of TurboTax.
[39:45.920 --> 39:51.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it goes it goes right to turbotax.intuit.com That's true.
[39:51.720 --> 40:03.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: And yeah, I feel that either a redirect or a notice on their site to direct people to who are looking for the vaccine who type that in in error or because it makes sense to type that in.
[40:05.060 --> 40:06.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good find there, Alex.
[40:08.280 --> 40:08.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[40:09.700 --> 40:11.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've been getting lots of mail.
[40:12.520 --> 40:14.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Lately, we've just been getting more mail than ever and that's great.
[40:14.940 --> 40:16.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: We love to get listener mail.
[40:17.720 --> 40:19.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here's one from Alan.
[40:19.280 --> 40:20.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just tuned into your show.
[40:20.760 --> 40:22.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Heard you discussing Network Solutions.
[40:22.860 --> 40:27.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Four years ago, I tried to hire them as my registered agent for my small LLC business.
[40:27.700 --> 40:37.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: They pulled some shady move where they changed the agreement and I wanted to cancel with them and they made it so impossible that I had to call my credit card and ask them to cancel them as a vendor, which they did.
[40:38.400 --> 40:43.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: To this day, Network Solutions sends me emails straight to my spam box about unpaid invoices.
[40:43.580 --> 40:46.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry, but also relieved to hear I'm not the only person.
[40:46.500 --> 40:46.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: So thanks.
[40:47.280 --> 40:59.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, thank you, Alan, for making me feel a little bit better, but they did rip me off as well by charging me for something I never signed up for and doing it every single year, complaining my credit card number got changed and then somehow finding out my new credit card number,
[41:00.000 --> 41:07.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: which really was very upsetting to me that they actually figured out how to do that somehow.
[41:09.900 --> 41:13.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And actually, there's another letter that addresses that from Hack 5190.
[41:13.600 --> 41:17.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I had to laugh as you were describing that someone had guessed your new credit card information.
[41:17.820 --> 41:28.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Years ago, I had the same experience and that's when I learned about card updater services when a vendor updated my on-file card information without my help for a service I wanted to end.
[41:28.440 --> 41:35.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: There is a very good chance you agreed to allow this in the terms and conditions that none of us except for Alex ever read.
[41:35.980 --> 41:37.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: It does say that, Alex.
[41:37.160 --> 41:40.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: American Express, MasterCard, Visa, and Discover all offer such services.
[41:41.420 --> 41:43.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for the laugh and keep up the good fight.
[41:43.320 --> 41:45.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I will keep up the good fight, but I wasn't intending to give you a laugh.
[41:46.780 --> 41:49.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's very serious, so I don't know what to do.
[41:49.800 --> 41:51.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, they're going to continue billing me for this.
[41:51.840 --> 41:52.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I can't reach them on the phone.
[41:53.680 --> 41:54.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe I'll visit.
[41:54.620 --> 41:55.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I'll do.
[41:55.360 --> 41:56.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll go down and figure out where they are.
[41:56.700 --> 41:57.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: They'll appreciate that.
[41:57.440 --> 41:58.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I'm sure they will.
[41:58.440 --> 41:58.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[42:00.260 --> 42:01.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: What else do we have here?
[42:03.380 --> 42:07.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: oth@2600.com is our email address.
[42:08.600 --> 42:12.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here is a mail from a long-time listener, first-time emailer named Brandon.
[42:12.820 --> 42:13.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's from Seattle.
[42:14.660 --> 42:18.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: The solution to your live YouTube show user notification problem.
[42:19.180 --> 42:26.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we're not good at YouTube, so we were trying to figure out how to let more people know about the podcast edition.
[42:26.760 --> 42:32.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Overtime starts at 8 o'clock rather than have people find out at 8 o'clock what the URL is.
[42:32.080 --> 42:37.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: We found the URL and we tweeted it out on the 2600 account, but we figured there's got to be better ways.
[42:37.340 --> 42:43.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: This person says you start streaming in advance, say 10 to 20 minutes, and in place of the actual show, you stream a countdown.
[42:44.740 --> 42:49.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then you share the countdown stream and let people queue up and await you all coming online.
[42:50.200 --> 42:53.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then when the time is up, you just switch broadcasts over to you.
[42:54.760 --> 43:00.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I use OBS, I think that's what we use as well, where this can be done by adding a countdown scene and a stream scene.
[43:00.920 --> 43:01.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Brandon, it's a good idea.
[43:01.680 --> 43:17.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: The only problem is that the machine that we use for the streaming is also used for the broadcast and since we end at 55 after the hour and the other podcast begins at 8 o'clock, it's not much time for us to do the countdown.
[43:18.260 --> 43:21.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's a good idea and maybe we'll get another computer or something.
[43:22.040 --> 43:27.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you were playing a clip, that would go out over the countdown because it also needs to go to a board or something.
[43:28.460 --> 43:29.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not easy.
[43:29.480 --> 43:30.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds easy.
[43:30.240 --> 43:31.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's technically possible.
[43:31.940 --> 43:41.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's just be mindful that it takes some configuration and resources and sometimes those are not available.
[43:41.680 --> 43:45.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I want to talk about this water supply situation because this is in the news.
[43:45.980 --> 43:47.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Everyone's discussing this right now.
[43:48.220 --> 44:03.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: From the New York Times, hackers remotely accessed the water treatment plant of a small Florida city last week and briefly changed the levels of lye in the drinking water and the kind of critical infrastructure intrusion that cybersecurity experts have long warned about.
[44:03.640 --> 44:05.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess we sort of count in that group of people.
[44:05.860 --> 44:12.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: The attack in Oldsmar, a city of 15,000 people in the Tampa Bay area, was caught before it could inflict harm.
[44:13.140 --> 44:28.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sheriff Bob Galtieri of Pinellas County said at a news conference Monday that the level of sodium hydroxide, the main ingredient in drain cleaner, was changed from 100 parts per million to 11,100 parts per million.
[44:29.480 --> 44:31.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Like somebody leaned on the one key a little bit.
[44:31.300 --> 44:35.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Dangerous levels that could have badly sickened residents if it had reached their homes.
[44:35.060 --> 44:36.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is dangerous stuff, he said.
[44:37.040 --> 44:37.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a bad act.
[44:38.000 --> 44:38.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a bad actor.
[44:38.760 --> 44:40.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not just a little chlorine or a little fluoride.
[44:40.680 --> 44:42.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're basically talking about lye.
[44:43.940 --> 44:49.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: The authority said the plot unfolded last Friday morning when an employee noticed that someone was controlling his computer.
[44:50.200 --> 44:55.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: He initially dismissed it because the city has software that allows supervisors to access computers remotely.
[44:55.780 --> 45:03.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: But about five and a half hours later, the employee saw that different programs were opening and that the level of lye was changed.
[45:05.180 --> 45:19.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, so my initial take on this, and tell me if I'm crazy, and I've said this before, I have been told that I am crazy and unrealistic for even thinking this, but why in God's name does a plant like this need to be accessed remotely in the first place?
[45:19.860 --> 45:29.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Aren't there people there, and apparently there are people on site who should be the only ones that are able to access the network that changes chemicals in water?
[45:29.640 --> 45:34.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can someone just tell me why that's a dream or something that's impossible, Rob?
[45:35.880 --> 45:47.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I mean, the articles about this specify that they had team viewers set up, and it was a normal thing for this person to have their supervisor go into their computer for supervisory reasons.
[45:47.980 --> 45:54.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: But yes, that could be easily put together on a company intranet and not accessible from the Internet.
[45:56.260 --> 46:03.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: When the only calls can come from inside the house, as it were, you're a lot safer with something that could actually cause damage.
[46:03.420 --> 46:06.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: By all accounts, this didn't actually change anything in water supply.
[46:06.980 --> 46:11.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was somebody who moved a slider up and it was immediately put back down.
[46:12.120 --> 46:13.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's another thing.
[46:14.080 --> 46:17.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why can you move the slider up to poison an entire population?
[46:17.400 --> 46:19.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: That should be disallowed right there.
[46:19.400 --> 46:21.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's no logical reason to ever want to do that.
[46:23.560 --> 46:27.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you're trying to turn down the volume on your computer and all of a sudden everyone dies.
[46:28.400 --> 46:32.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it is crazy that this stuff would be Internet-facing at all.
[46:33.620 --> 46:34.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex?
[46:34.940 --> 46:43.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I think a lot of it is expediency and we can certainly comment after the fact and say there are plenty of better ways to do this.
[46:43.960 --> 46:45.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: They could have used a secure VPN.
[46:45.380 --> 46:46.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: They shouldn't have access.
[46:46.880 --> 47:04.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: But especially in today's world where we see these types of municipalities having a great amount of responsibility with no regulatory oversight, the lack of funding and the need for their employees to be able to do their job and administer the water supply in the midst of a global health crisis.
[47:04.860 --> 47:06.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, let me stop you right there though.
[47:06.820 --> 47:17.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: In the midst of because I keep hearing this a lot too, because of coronavirus, blaming everything on coronavirus, so people can't go to a water treatment plant where I don't think that thousands of people work.
[47:17.840 --> 47:20.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's a fairly small crew of people.
[47:20.280 --> 47:20.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not really sure.
[47:21.400 --> 47:27.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: But for something like that, you're saying that people are being encouraged to stay away?
[47:27.620 --> 47:29.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: It seems like that's a bad idea.
[47:30.240 --> 47:51.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm not saying it's entirely the cause of this, but it's certainly part of the problem, in that you have these quickly stood up IT systems, remote access systems, that are put in place without afterthought to the security configurations that may have been overlooked.
[47:51.560 --> 48:01.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: There are certainly better ways to do this, but these things are what's known as HMIs, or these human-machine interfaces, where they are pretty self-evident from the name.
[48:01.680 --> 48:05.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's an interface that allows a human to control a complex machine.
[48:06.280 --> 48:09.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we live in the 21st century.
[48:09.320 --> 48:12.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't necessarily have to be there in order to do it.
[48:12.980 --> 48:16.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: I totally agree there should be greater security precautions in place.
[48:16.300 --> 48:26.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: And for something like TeamViewer to be used here, which is just essentially remote desktop software, I can go and move the mouse around on your screen by using TeamViewer.
[48:27.160 --> 48:30.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's something that's used essentially for tech support.
[48:30.320 --> 48:44.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it shouldn't be used to administer a water supply, but from some of the other stories I've been reading on this, too, is that TeamViewer can actually be considered an improvement to some of these public-facing HMI interfaces that are just out there on the web.
[48:44.780 --> 48:49.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: At least TeamViewer needs to be discovered by way of an IP address or something like that.
[48:50.260 --> 48:55.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, I think we shouldn't be too quick to criticize here.
[48:55.880 --> 49:02.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I also understand that there were other physical safeguards in place that would have prevented this from actually taking place.
[49:02.960 --> 49:04.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think that's important.
[49:04.680 --> 49:12.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: But what's really worrying to me is that there are going to be more sophisticated adversaries that are able to do this.
[49:12.180 --> 49:22.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what I think that this, you know, may play into, if you think about the policies that we had back in the Cold War of Mutually Assured Destruction.
[49:23.680 --> 49:28.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: And these types of... Mutually assured destruction was a deterrent for nuclear war.
[49:28.280 --> 49:38.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what we have now is more of a race to find critical vulnerabilities and proof of concept of those critical vulnerabilities between nations.
[49:39.020 --> 49:44.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because we know that, you know, digital actions can have a kinetic effect.
[49:44.500 --> 49:56.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if the United States is very, very good at finding critical vulnerabilities in other nations as infrastructures, then other nations are going to be trying to find those very same vulnerabilities in our infrastructures.
[49:56.360 --> 49:59.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is the digital arms race that we're in right now.
[50:00.080 --> 50:07.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so, what's scary to me is that this might... this looks like it could have been some angry employee who did this.
[50:07.640 --> 50:17.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: We also know that there was a similar situation in Israel, you know, that may or may not have been connected, but Israel and the United States are collaborating and sharing information about this.
[50:17.460 --> 50:23.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: But what this could also be is proof of concept of a foreign adversary that they have access to our infrastructure systems.
[50:23.780 --> 50:26.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I think that's entirely likely.
[50:26.940 --> 50:45.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: And what the actual vulnerability may have been a completely other type of communication, meaning someone was monitoring or something that wasn't taken that seriously allowed someone who was not authorized to understand that a team viewer was being used.
[50:45.500 --> 51:09.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: It could have been sort of an email that was not handled right, but a part of their regular operational security, not thinking that a public email or some kind of public communications or otherwise insecure communications would lead to someone maybe getting a copy of that or a key or some insight into how to get to another layer of,
[51:09.960 --> 51:32.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: okay, now I'm using the remote viewing software to understand stuff that is completely behind the scenes and an operational bit of infrastructure that has sort of this free software or this commercial stuff added on ad hoc in sort of a security through obscurity type of way.
[51:32.580 --> 51:56.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I really think Rob's point and Alex hit it is it is really hard to have things offline when you want other things to tell you what kind of levels you have of chemicals and you want to have that tied into procurement so that orders for things are done and also maintenance of this stuff.
[51:56.140 --> 51:58.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're maintaining a water system.
[51:58.860 --> 52:08.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: The computers and equipment may have been introduced a long time ago and the budget is there to buy valves and parts and pipes and things.
[52:09.040 --> 52:12.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're not exactly running new cable and upgrading this stuff.
[52:12.780 --> 52:20.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're sort of adding on to it layer by layer thinking it won't really be of any importance and you end up with stuff that's woefully out of date.
[52:20.860 --> 52:31.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I think it's a combination of all of these things and of course perhaps increasing amounts of people listening and trying to find these kinds of vulnerabilities in public infrastructure.
[52:31.980 --> 52:55.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know it's convenient to be able to do these things remotely but if you need to read things fine you can read things but if you need to change something you call somebody at the plant and have them do it they're on site you know sure it's easier for you to be able to do everything from your iPhone but it's not smart it's not safe that's my concern yeah yeah and I mean I remember I worked in
[52:55.820 --> 53:13.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: production and there was a machine there that people would use for browsing and stuff and it's also running all of the The controls and systems for a production system, that was a huge deal, and people who were doing that got in a lot of trouble for it,
[53:13.700 --> 53:15.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: but it wasn't found out for a long time.
[53:15.720 --> 53:18.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: So there's probably a lot of other people who can relate with this story.
[53:18.520 --> 53:20.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have lots of stories about that.
[53:20.440 --> 53:21.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, but we're out of time.
[53:21.980 --> 53:25.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: We can continue this on Overtime, which is starting up at 8 o'clock.
[53:25.220 --> 53:32.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you go to YouTube.com and go to Channel2600, one word, you'll find us there, and we'll be able to take your phone calls.
[53:32.160 --> 53:34.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: 8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-5.
[53:34.640 --> 53:39.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Meanwhile, write to us, off the hook, oth@2600.com.
[53:39.980 --> 53:42.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: We will see you back here next week.
[53:42.560 --> 53:43.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good night.
[53:46.760 --> 53:49.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for listening to Off The Hook.
[54:14.320 --> 54:15.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[55:24.730 --> 55:26.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: We live in complicated times.
[55:27.130 --> 55:30.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it seems like important voices get left out.
[55:30.170 --> 55:32.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's hard to know who to trust.
[55:32.870 --> 55:34.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: But one thing's for sure.
[55:34.350 --> 55:41.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: For more than 60 years, WBAI has been your go-to for independent, non-commercial, free speech programming.
[55:41.790 --> 55:48.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: Join the WBAI family as a WBAI buddy in the name of your favorite show today and support radio you can trust.
[55:49.510 --> 55:50.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[55:50.230 --> 55:54.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here we are in Off The Hook Overtime land on YouTube.
[55:55.370 --> 55:56.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, Kyle, you made it over?
[55:57.390 --> 55:57.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sure.
[55:57.730 --> 55:58.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I'm here.
[55:58.370 --> 56:00.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's go back to the Skype people.
[56:01.390 --> 56:03.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, Rob, Gila, you're all here.
[56:04.170 --> 56:05.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am here.
[56:05.550 --> 56:05.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[56:05.730 --> 56:09.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: And our listeners will be joining us soon as well, 802-321-4225.
[56:10.170 --> 56:12.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know we were talking about the water situation.
[56:12.410 --> 56:22.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just wanted to mention one thing in one of the summations, which, of course, I lost in the break.
[56:25.250 --> 56:25.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hang on.
[56:25.970 --> 56:26.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where was it?
[56:27.210 --> 56:34.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, it was a situation where somebody saw what was actually happening.
[56:34.470 --> 56:40.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, the intruder's timing and visibility seemed almost comical to cybersecurity experts.
[56:40.510 --> 56:44.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: A supervisor monitoring a plant console about 1.30 p.m.
[56:44.490 --> 56:50.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: saw a cursor move across the screen and change settings and was able to immediately reverse it.
[56:50.390 --> 56:52.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: The intruder was in and out in five minutes.
[56:52.450 --> 56:56.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm wondering if it was just an employee that made a mistake and was accessing something and hit the wrong key.
[56:57.210 --> 57:03.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just suspect there's more to this story or less to this story than what we're being led to believe.
[57:04.470 --> 57:04.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex?
[57:05.030 --> 57:07.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
[57:07.790 --> 57:19.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's fascinating to me about the story is that, first of all, the only reason we know about it is because of this press conference that was held for every one of these things that we know about.
[57:19.950 --> 57:28.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: God knows how many there are that we don't know about because not every time this happens, there's a press conference held by what was essentially the police.
[57:28.430 --> 57:32.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, it's kind of strange in and of itself to have that.
[57:32.170 --> 57:37.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at first, they seem to be very forthcoming with the details of this incident.
[57:37.850 --> 57:42.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: But since then, we don't know very much else.
[57:42.930 --> 57:44.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: There hasn't been a lot of other information.
[57:45.870 --> 57:49.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have another guest here.
[57:49.270 --> 57:49.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[57:50.570 --> 57:51.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's clear.
[57:51.410 --> 57:51.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yep.
[57:52.030 --> 57:57.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, there have been scant details since that initial conference about this.
[57:57.970 --> 58:08.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it shouldn't be too difficult to have additional details about this because whoever connected to this particular machine, their IP address is going to be logged somewhere in TeamViewer.
[58:08.550 --> 58:08.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Exactly.
[58:09.590 --> 58:10.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unless...
[58:10.110 --> 58:10.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Pardon me?
[58:10.790 --> 58:11.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[58:11.210 --> 58:11.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: I agree.
[58:11.830 --> 58:19.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: I smell some kind of a rat here because, you know, I'm reading other stories that say this hack exposed vulnerability of cash-strapped U.S.
[58:19.250 --> 58:19.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: water plants.
[58:19.690 --> 58:21.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know why water plants are cash-strapped.
[58:21.870 --> 58:23.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you sell water to people, they pay for it.
[58:23.990 --> 58:25.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: It should pay for the plant, but whatever.
[58:25.510 --> 58:30.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: It seems like this is a good opportunity to get word out that, hey, we need help.
[58:30.210 --> 58:31.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: We need funding.
[58:31.230 --> 58:31.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: We need attention.
[58:32.010 --> 58:33.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, yeah, you should.
[58:33.270 --> 58:34.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I don't know.
[58:34.890 --> 58:42.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's something about this that just seems a little too easy and convenient with, as you say, a lack of real details.
[58:42.910 --> 58:47.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that and, you know, seeing the cursor move across the screen, what if this person hadn't seen that?
[58:47.810 --> 58:48.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: What was going to happen?
[58:49.030 --> 58:51.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, there were these other physical safeguards that were in place.
[58:52.510 --> 58:57.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: So then why have this massive press conference for this minor incursion?
[58:57.390 --> 58:58.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[58:58.750 --> 59:00.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: There is definitely something off with the story.
[59:01.270 --> 59:03.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's going to be something more forthcoming.
[59:03.170 --> 59:10.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And maybe there is something more nefarious coming, which would explain the scant details since the initial press conference.
[59:11.010 --> 59:12.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we'll keep watching it.
[59:12.470 --> 59:13.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have a call.
[59:13.550 --> 59:14.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening, caller.
[59:14.250 --> 59:16.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on the show.
[59:17.810 --> 59:19.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening, all of our time.
[59:19.430 --> 59:20.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's Bobson from Bulgaria.
[59:20.910 --> 59:22.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I assume you're in Bulgaria.
[59:23.390 --> 59:24.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I am.
[59:26.470 --> 59:32.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Last week you talked about the green letterbox picture.
[59:33.050 --> 59:37.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, the thing that's on the actual YouTube channel right now, the podcast.
[59:38.190 --> 59:41.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: That green mailbox has been verified as being from Republic of Ireland.
[59:42.950 --> 59:45.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, have you gotten any reports to that?
[59:46.010 --> 01:00:02.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because I did some research last week about the result about 100 years ago in 1921 or 1922, when Ireland became independent, all the post boxes.
[01:00:02.850 --> 01:00:10.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's not a mailbox because it has the word post engraved on it, the green thing on the picture.
[01:00:11.190 --> 01:00:22.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: So all the red post boxes from the Royal Mail were painted green for the Irish Mail in 1922 or 21, I think.
[01:00:22.110 --> 01:00:22.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:00:22.850 --> 01:00:24.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm impressed you found that out.
[01:00:25.570 --> 01:00:35.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this box is in front of an arched doorway with some lettering which suggests that it says Dublin Castle.
[01:00:35.710 --> 01:00:37.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, you're kind of scaring me here.
[01:00:37.190 --> 01:00:39.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're figuring out exactly where this mailbox is.
[01:00:40.190 --> 01:00:42.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Soon you'll know when the picture was taken.
[01:00:44.170 --> 01:00:58.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: The mailbox in front of Dublin Castle was the first mailbox to be painted green as opposed to the red boxes for the Royal Mail of the Great Britain or what have you.
[01:00:58.350 --> 01:01:03.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, if I ever want to hide the facts about a mailbox, I know you're not the person to try that with.
[01:01:05.310 --> 01:01:14.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, if you search Dublin Castle and mailbox, things come up in a search engine.
[01:01:16.250 --> 01:01:18.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, well, anything else you want to tell us?
[01:01:20.170 --> 01:01:21.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I was wrong.
[01:01:21.930 --> 01:01:24.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't search for mailbox, search for post box.
[01:01:24.330 --> 01:01:24.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Post box.
[01:01:24.950 --> 01:01:26.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because it says post on it.
[01:01:26.170 --> 01:01:27.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, there's definitely a difference.
[01:01:28.490 --> 01:01:29.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bobson, good as always to hear from you.
[01:01:29.970 --> 01:01:31.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know it's very late over there where you are.
[01:01:31.730 --> 01:01:32.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: What time is it?
[01:01:33.590 --> 01:01:39.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we're about seven hours in the future here, which means...
[01:01:39.690 --> 01:01:40.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have to do the work.
[01:01:40.750 --> 01:01:42.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, so that makes it 3.06 in the morning.
[01:01:43.650 --> 01:01:59.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: The noontime trial conferences at the Senate over there are shown in the early evening for however long they decide to meet.
[01:02:00.190 --> 01:02:03.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: 16 hours, they said earlier today.
[01:02:03.030 --> 01:02:10.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, Bobson, one day we have to do a radio show in our morning or afternoon so that you don't always sound so tired.
[01:02:10.270 --> 01:02:15.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because, you know, we've hung out with you and you're very energetic and you don't talk like you're about to fall asleep usually.
[01:02:15.330 --> 01:02:18.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we have to do an earlier show so we can hear the energetic, Bobson.
[01:02:20.510 --> 01:02:23.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I don't think it's worth the butter.
[01:02:24.550 --> 01:02:26.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we'll decide that.
[01:02:27.890 --> 01:02:32.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm always up to doing a show live at the conference as we've done in the past.
[01:02:35.010 --> 01:02:35.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:02:35.690 --> 01:02:41.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, listen, we're going to move on to another phone call, but you get some sleep and we'll hopefully talk to you again soon.
[01:02:42.470 --> 01:02:44.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Have a wonderful day, everyone.
[01:02:44.210 --> 01:02:44.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks for the show.
[01:02:45.130 --> 01:02:45.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:02:45.410 --> 01:02:45.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take care.
[01:02:47.710 --> 01:02:50.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802-321-4225 is our phone number.
[01:02:51.190 --> 01:02:53.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802-321-HACK.
[01:02:53.230 --> 01:02:59.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802, of course, is the area code for Vermont, which we are not in, but we just happened to get that cool-sounding phone number.
[01:03:00.850 --> 01:03:05.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: We had a bunch of stories we weren't able to get to.
[01:03:05.410 --> 01:03:09.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's always the case with every single program that we do.
[01:03:09.490 --> 01:03:12.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is the one I really wanted to read, though.
[01:03:12.190 --> 01:03:22.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just because you consider someone to be in your family, even if it's not necessarily by blood, it doesn't mean that they can't turn around and betray you or do things that work against you.
[01:03:22.710 --> 01:03:36.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know it sounds kind of dark, but this story leads over to India, where a man who was being extorted by what he thought was a group of hackers found out that, in fact, it was his 11-year-old son.
[01:03:38.110 --> 01:03:39.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, this is going to be one of these feel-good stories.
[01:03:40.170 --> 01:03:48.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: The man claimed he was initially threatened by the group to pay a large amount of money to them unless he wanted them to leak his alleged obscene photos and family details.
[01:03:48.990 --> 01:03:55.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: His email was hacked where the password was changed, along with the mobile number associated with it.
[01:03:55.870 --> 01:04:02.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: The hackers, in quotes, appropriately enough, even claimed that they were watching him and his family and continue to harass them.
[01:04:03.450 --> 01:04:15.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, when the man eventually reached out to the police for help, they discovered that the IP address of the so-called hackers came from the man's own house, meaning that the threats were made from within the house.
[01:04:15.490 --> 01:04:23.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: The police started to question the man's son, who later confessed that he was behind it, probably pretty quickly, being 11 years old.
[01:04:23.950 --> 01:04:31.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: He told the police that he learned what he needed to know from watching videos on YouTube, such as how to avoid getting caught.
[01:04:31.430 --> 01:04:34.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: As you can see, those videos didn't work that well.
[01:04:34.710 --> 01:04:37.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: The police say they are continuing to investigate the matter.
[01:04:37.650 --> 01:04:38.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know why.
[01:04:39.110 --> 01:04:40.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: They pretty much have the whole thing solved.
[01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:46.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's unclear as to what might happen to the kid and if he could eventually face charges.
[01:04:47.090 --> 01:04:52.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know how that would go in court with dad there on the witness stand and the kid in shackles.
[01:04:53.690 --> 01:04:57.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why would you try to do that to your own dad inside the same house?
[01:04:57.430 --> 01:05:01.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: I could see if maybe he lives somewhere else, but you're right there with him.
[01:05:01.270 --> 01:05:03.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're having dinner with him right after you threaten him.
[01:05:03.690 --> 01:05:04.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: It doesn't make sense.
[01:05:05.370 --> 01:05:06.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, can you really pull that off at 11?
[01:05:07.430 --> 01:05:09.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: I want to see what this kid does in the future.
[01:05:10.470 --> 01:05:11.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right, let's take this phone call.
[01:05:11.610 --> 01:05:11.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[01:05:12.110 --> 01:05:13.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on Off The Wall Overtime.
[01:05:13.690 --> 01:05:14.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:05:14.730 --> 01:05:15.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sorry, wrong show.
[01:05:16.790 --> 01:05:17.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[01:05:18.170 --> 01:05:18.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello?
[01:05:19.290 --> 01:05:20.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think they hung up.
[01:05:20.770 --> 01:05:21.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nope, sorry.
[01:05:21.470 --> 01:05:22.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was on mute.
[01:05:22.470 --> 01:05:23.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you were on mute.
[01:05:23.430 --> 01:05:24.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: That happens on the phone, too.
[01:05:24.890 --> 01:05:25.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about that?
[01:05:25.770 --> 01:05:26.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's the times we live in.
[01:05:26.710 --> 01:05:32.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hey, I was calling to see if any of your listeners could help me out with something.
[01:05:32.430 --> 01:05:33.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've talked to Alex about this.
[01:05:33.910 --> 01:05:36.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is Hack 5190 out in Wyoming.
[01:05:36.650 --> 01:05:42.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And our legislature is planning to propose a road usage tax.
[01:05:44.310 --> 01:05:52.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: My understanding is that a few of the states further west of us, California, Washington, and some of them have them.
[01:05:52.010 --> 01:05:56.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: And my concern, obviously, being a hacker, is privacy information.
[01:05:57.270 --> 01:06:05.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't want anybody sticking a device in my car that's going to know where it is 24 by 7 or how fast it's going or anything like that.
[01:06:06.330 --> 01:06:19.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm just curious, since these things are obviously in use in other states, what your listeners or you guys know about these things to kind of help fight against it so we don't get one here.
[01:06:19.350 --> 01:06:20.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Kyle is from Washington.
[01:06:21.110 --> 01:06:26.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got to admit, though, I kind of missed this just by a little bit.
[01:06:26.310 --> 01:06:36.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, the last time I got to take one of those roads was specifically the new tunnel that has replaced the viaduct on the waterfront in Seattle.
[01:06:36.870 --> 01:06:38.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: At the time, it was still free.
[01:06:38.550 --> 01:06:42.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: It has now since become a toll-use road.
[01:06:42.810 --> 01:06:46.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that requires that you have, I think, what's called good-to-go.
[01:06:46.570 --> 01:06:47.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that is their scheme.
[01:06:47.770 --> 01:06:55.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: The most exposure I've had to this type of road-use scheme is actually in New York with the E-ZPass system.
[01:06:55.350 --> 01:06:57.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: I believe that's the type of technology you're referring to, right?
[01:06:58.310 --> 01:07:00.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it's actually different.
[01:07:00.510 --> 01:07:02.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, because E-ZPass is voluntary.
[01:07:02.530 --> 01:07:03.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: This sounds like it's not voluntary.
[01:07:04.090 --> 01:07:08.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you're talking about a device that has some kind of location-based fare system?
[01:07:08.970 --> 01:07:11.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: That sounds like a lot of the road toll.
[01:07:11.550 --> 01:07:13.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is it a road toll or road use?
[01:07:14.170 --> 01:07:15.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a road use.
[01:07:15.370 --> 01:07:22.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: So what it would actually do is it would have a GPS device in it, and it's going to track your usage of the roadway, right?
[01:07:22.430 --> 01:07:26.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Whether you've driven three miles or whether you've driven 100 miles, it's going to know that.
[01:07:26.970 --> 01:07:31.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's going to know where you were when you drove those miles, what time of the day, and how fast you went.
[01:07:32.810 --> 01:07:33.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:07:33.330 --> 01:07:34.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's like a black box, really.
[01:07:35.590 --> 01:07:36.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, sir.
[01:07:36.350 --> 01:07:38.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's exactly what they're planning.
[01:07:38.650 --> 01:07:40.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I know Alex and I spoke about this.
[01:07:41.010 --> 01:07:48.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: He put me in touch with the EFF, and the gentleman who he put me in contact with is out on maternity leave.
[01:07:48.850 --> 01:07:58.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, thankfully, the state legislature, state legislation has not scheduled this for a hearing yet, so it hasn't gotten out of the committee.
[01:07:58.270 --> 01:08:06.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, again, I'm just trying to understand other states that have these, because all of the states outsource this to some third-party company.
[01:08:07.310 --> 01:08:15.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: And just like Verizon, you know, I don't really want my data in a third-party's hands, and I certainly don't want them to be selling it out of the back door.
[01:08:15.850 --> 01:08:21.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, are you for sure... you're saying Washington does, in fact, use this?
[01:08:21.290 --> 01:08:23.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because I'm not aware of it being in use.
[01:08:23.790 --> 01:08:30.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Are you saying it is being proposed as sort of a next step in taxation for roads?
[01:08:30.670 --> 01:08:35.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, from what I can tell, it was looked at, and it was approved in Washington.
[01:08:35.810 --> 01:08:37.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was approved in California.
[01:08:39.370 --> 01:08:42.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think that Colorado actually looked at it as well.
[01:08:42.530 --> 01:08:45.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if Colorado has approved it or not, though.
[01:08:45.850 --> 01:08:47.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, is it not implemented?
[01:08:47.490 --> 01:08:48.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is it statewide?
[01:08:48.210 --> 01:08:51.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or is it just different counties that are implementing it in the state?
[01:08:51.970 --> 01:08:53.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd have to learn a lot more about this.
[01:08:53.610 --> 01:08:54.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not aware.
[01:08:54.130 --> 01:08:57.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: I am a driver in Washington State, and I am really interested.
[01:08:58.170 --> 01:09:05.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've not heard of this and been notified by the state licensing about eligibility.
[01:09:05.450 --> 01:09:13.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I have about the passes, and I know that's a big deal in specific projects, like I mentioned, in Seattle there.
[01:09:13.590 --> 01:09:16.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, of course, the same goes out here with toll roads.
[01:09:17.130 --> 01:09:22.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, so from what I can tell, and you're right, passes are slightly different, as you guys have alluded to.
[01:09:22.690 --> 01:09:25.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, that's typically a voluntary system.
[01:09:25.350 --> 01:09:31.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I create an account with some agency, and on the East Coast where you guys are at, it would be an easy pass agency, right?
[01:09:32.670 --> 01:09:34.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: They send me a transponder.
[01:09:34.450 --> 01:09:35.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: I put that on my vehicle.
[01:09:36.390 --> 01:09:45.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then when I use a roadway, as you enter or exit one of those gantries at a plaza, there's an antenna that's above your vehicle.
[01:09:45.590 --> 01:09:47.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what it does is it activates it.
[01:09:47.470 --> 01:09:50.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: The device, the transponder sends the information.
[01:09:50.490 --> 01:09:54.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: The various agencies along the East Coast exchange information.
[01:09:54.830 --> 01:10:00.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: And wherever you have an account and a credit card on file, they charge you for the usage of that roadway.
[01:10:00.850 --> 01:10:21.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you don't have a transponder, then typically they take images of your license plate, OCR those images, and then contact the appropriate state agency where that vehicle is registered, and we'll send you, depending on what state or commonwealth you drove through and what roadway it is,
[01:10:21.050 --> 01:10:25.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: you'll either get an invoice or you'll get a fine.
[01:10:25.630 --> 01:10:26.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:10:26.510 --> 01:10:34.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the way it's happened now in New York where toll booths have been eliminated, not everybody has an easy pass.
[01:10:34.070 --> 01:10:35.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I don't know if there's a penalty involved.
[01:10:36.150 --> 01:10:37.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's a higher rate.
[01:10:37.370 --> 01:10:41.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: It will take a picture of your license plate and mail you a bill.
[01:10:41.230 --> 01:10:49.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you have any indication what would happen to somebody if they didn't have this device on their car in Wyoming after this is put into place?
[01:10:50.370 --> 01:11:02.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, according to the legislation so far, they realize that there are some people who either don't have an ODB 2 port on their vehicle or do not want to have this on their vehicle.
[01:11:02.970 --> 01:11:07.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe they have something else in there, like one of those progressive safe driver discount dongles.
[01:11:08.010 --> 01:11:09.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was just going to mention that.
[01:11:09.410 --> 01:11:12.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's exactly what this sounds like if it is ODB 2.
[01:11:12.350 --> 01:11:13.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is ODB 2.
[01:11:13.990 --> 01:11:20.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: So their plan is to have some alternate method, although that's certainly not documented or described how that would work.
[01:11:20.570 --> 01:11:28.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And my guess would be that that would put the onus on me as the vehicle owner to report to the state how many miles I drove.
[01:11:29.130 --> 01:11:35.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I obviously owe the state so much money per mile for my usage of the roadway.
[01:11:35.790 --> 01:11:44.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, the reason they want to track it through a GPS is, as you may be aware, Wyoming has a lot of territory, but we do not have a lot of roads.
[01:11:45.150 --> 01:11:54.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: So there are lots of driving that occurs on BLM territory, on private lands, on farms, you know, ranches, those types of things.
[01:11:54.210 --> 01:11:56.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: They should... they would not be taxable.
[01:11:56.670 --> 01:12:00.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they need to know where your vehicle is 24 by 7 when it's moving.
[01:12:01.490 --> 01:12:03.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: What is BLM territory?
[01:12:03.510 --> 01:12:04.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bureau of Land Management.
[01:12:04.790 --> 01:12:05.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[01:12:05.430 --> 01:12:05.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly.
[01:12:06.210 --> 01:12:07.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I totally misread that.
[01:12:08.290 --> 01:12:08.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh.
[01:12:09.410 --> 01:12:10.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, you have like...
[01:12:10.410 --> 01:12:12.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry, yeah, I guess you probably may have.
[01:12:12.130 --> 01:12:15.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I thought Wyoming was a lot more advanced than I give it credit for.
[01:12:16.110 --> 01:12:18.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're about as red as you can get, although I'm certain.
[01:12:18.470 --> 01:12:19.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's what surprises me.
[01:12:19.970 --> 01:12:28.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are they implementing things like this with all this, you know, individuality and, you know, government is bad and all that kind of thing.
[01:12:28.470 --> 01:12:31.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And yet this, this seems super Orwellian to me.
[01:12:32.210 --> 01:12:33.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I would agree with you.
[01:12:33.410 --> 01:12:33.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is.
[01:12:34.030 --> 01:12:44.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the interesting thing is this state, and I keep wanting to say Commonwealth, because I obviously moved here from Pennsylvania, but we have no regulations against PII, right?
[01:12:44.770 --> 01:12:46.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have no protections for my PII.
[01:12:46.950 --> 01:12:50.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: So once the state gets it, they could give it to anybody.
[01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:58.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, back east, and I presume New York is the same as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, where when you register your vehicle, it's registered with the state.
[01:12:59.190 --> 01:13:01.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: You obviously get a state license plate.
[01:13:01.470 --> 01:13:08.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in Pennsylvania, you pay a different fee, whether it's a passenger vehicle, a station wagon, a truck, and based on weights.
[01:13:08.070 --> 01:13:23.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's here in Wyoming, it's very similar to California, where your vehicle plates are based on the MSRP of the vehicle when it was new, regardless of what you've paid for it.
[01:13:24.150 --> 01:13:33.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And not only that, the vehicles are registered by the county, even though you get a state plate, rather than the vehicle being registered with the state.
[01:13:33.630 --> 01:13:34.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's weird.
[01:13:35.330 --> 01:13:39.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a different system, because the county makes the bulk of that money.
[01:13:39.590 --> 01:13:40.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's how the county operates.
[01:13:41.110 --> 01:13:41.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure.
[01:13:41.330 --> 01:13:42.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't tax you.
[01:13:42.510 --> 01:13:45.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I had no idea that Californians was so different.
[01:13:45.390 --> 01:13:46.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, I want you to weigh in here.
[01:13:46.650 --> 01:13:46.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[01:13:48.430 --> 01:13:59.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, and hey, Hack5190, I was thinking about this, too, and it is unfortunate that my good friend over at the EFF is on material leave.
[01:13:59.970 --> 01:14:01.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully, he will give back to us.
[01:14:01.590 --> 01:14:02.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's a very good guy.
[01:14:02.510 --> 01:14:23.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the other thing I was thinking about here, and I may be able to help you out as well, is since this appears to be at the bill level, it's going to certainly be a local issue, and privacy activists, civil rights activists, etc., would probably want to lobby the legislature to kill this thing before it does,
[01:14:23.550 --> 01:14:28.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: in fact, become a law, because it does seem rather intrusive, at least from the way that you're describing it.
[01:14:28.290 --> 01:14:38.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so, in my opinion, I think this would probably be an issue better suited for your local ACLU chapter, the ACLU of Wyoming.
[01:14:39.870 --> 01:14:48.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I may be able to help you there, because one of my law partners lives in Montana, and his wife is the executive director of the ACLU in Montana.
[01:14:48.870 --> 01:14:54.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I imagine she probably knows who the ACLU director is in Wyoming, and we can connect you.
[01:14:54.490 --> 01:14:56.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know Montana and Wyoming are very, very different.
[01:14:58.070 --> 01:14:58.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yes.
[01:14:59.310 --> 01:14:59.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:14:59.750 --> 01:15:01.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: They are, but they're very similar as well.
[01:15:02.530 --> 01:15:03.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's a surprise.
[01:15:03.770 --> 01:15:03.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:15:04.410 --> 01:15:10.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's very revealing, you know, what you're sharing with us.
[01:15:10.170 --> 01:15:13.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I'd certainly like to know more about it as a car driver myself.
[01:15:13.550 --> 01:15:14.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's so curious.
[01:15:14.390 --> 01:15:16.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: It makes me really have more questions.
[01:15:16.270 --> 01:15:18.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, what is the advantage?
[01:15:18.770 --> 01:15:21.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why do I want this as a consumer?
[01:15:21.190 --> 01:15:25.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or what is the payoff for giving this stuff up?
[01:15:25.410 --> 01:15:30.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think it also kind of relates to some of the other stuff we were talking about with privacy.
[01:15:30.570 --> 01:15:35.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we were talking about Section 230 stuff, where that might not even be the best route.
[01:15:35.790 --> 01:15:44.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's so many bigger, more philosophical, privacy-related things that have not been addressed.
[01:15:44.290 --> 01:16:08.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think modeling and revisiting ideas and schemes like the GDPR in Europe, which was instituted not too long ago, those ways of future-proofing a lot of these kinds of laws and technologies and strategies would go a really, really long way to head this stuff off instead of us being reactive and saying,
[01:16:08.970 --> 01:16:13.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: oh, let's go and beg and plead with social media to try harder.
[01:16:13.470 --> 01:16:17.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, maybe we'll fix it after it's totally blown up in our faces.
[01:16:17.990 --> 01:16:19.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just think that's...
[01:16:19.990 --> 01:16:21.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's nice, but it's not effective.
[01:16:21.790 --> 01:16:22.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's why we're having this conversation.
[01:16:23.010 --> 01:16:25.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: And hopefully we learn a lot more about this.
[01:16:25.170 --> 01:16:29.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think there's a good article in this for sure, because I want to know more about that technology.
[01:16:29.130 --> 01:16:30.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know, Rob, you have something to say about this.
[01:16:32.870 --> 01:16:33.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rob?
[01:16:34.290 --> 01:16:35.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're muted, Rob.
[01:16:35.410 --> 01:16:36.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe he's on mute.
[01:16:36.450 --> 01:16:37.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you're definitely on mute.
[01:16:37.630 --> 01:16:38.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that happens.
[01:16:38.610 --> 01:16:38.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:16:38.670 --> 01:16:43.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I just wanted to invite any of our listeners who have direct experience of this.
[01:16:43.910 --> 01:16:51.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you're in a state where this happens or if you've had access to one of these pieces of equipment, anything you want to tell us, we're interested in hearing.
[01:16:52.010 --> 01:16:56.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: So either call us here or send us an email, oth@2600.com.
[01:16:57.070 --> 01:17:03.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I will email you some links to PDFs for documents from the various states that have looked into this.
[01:17:03.310 --> 01:17:05.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this isn't necessarily brand new technology.
[01:17:05.950 --> 01:17:10.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: This has existed on commercial over-the-road vehicles for years, right?
[01:17:10.590 --> 01:17:12.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Fleet operators like to know where their vehicles are.
[01:17:13.290 --> 01:17:19.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they want to know, you know, if somebody stopped along the roadway, idling for two hours, wasting time, etc.
[01:17:19.390 --> 01:17:22.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: So this technology has been around for quite some time.
[01:17:22.670 --> 01:17:30.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just now that they want to bring it down into the regular passenger vehicle and your consumer's level, for lack of a better way to describe that.
[01:17:30.830 --> 01:17:35.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it is interesting because as a resident, they would know where I am.
[01:17:35.270 --> 01:17:46.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is supposedly going to help pay for the fuel, you know, and the fuel taxes that the out-of-state people drive.
[01:17:46.330 --> 01:17:47.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: When they come in, they won't have these.
[01:17:48.090 --> 01:17:51.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they're going to pay for their usage of Wyoming roadways through fuel taxes.
[01:17:51.710 --> 01:17:58.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I buy my fuel at the exact same gas station and don't get a discount when I go in as a consumer.
[01:17:58.170 --> 01:18:11.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I can say in Pennsylvania, when I owned boats, I used to track how many gallons of fuel that I bought and used in my boats because the Fish and Game Commission would get that tax money back from the Department of Transportation.
[01:18:12.470 --> 01:18:24.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here, I'm going to have to somehow track my fuel usage as well and then my fuel usage on the public roads so that I can try to get that waived against what they're charging me for the miles I've driven.
[01:18:24.170 --> 01:18:30.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's a logistics nightmare for me as a vehicle owner and user of the roadway.
[01:18:30.570 --> 01:18:37.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: But more to one of the points that Kyle had brought up, I mean, the only protections we have here is a breach notification.
[01:18:37.710 --> 01:18:40.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Beyond that, there is no PII protection in this state.
[01:18:41.250 --> 01:18:44.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and I could see it easily being implemented in the form of an app.
[01:18:44.490 --> 01:18:55.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, now that you brought it up and like, okay, so drivers that don't have smartphones, okay, you can sign up for $49.99, whatever, you know, make it up.
[01:18:55.950 --> 01:19:04.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then you get some device that is a part of this system, as you said, like, for the same style as trucking and has been implemented before.
[01:19:05.130 --> 01:19:13.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it really is interesting that this is the solution, perhaps, to sidestepping increases in gas taxation.
[01:19:14.450 --> 01:19:14.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Specifically...
[01:19:14.930 --> 01:19:16.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, no, that's on the table as well for this year.
[01:19:16.490 --> 01:19:17.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, great, yeah.
[01:19:17.190 --> 01:19:26.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and we're supposed to welcome this and turn a blind eye at the same time because maybe we'll have nicer roads in Wyoming.
[01:19:26.710 --> 01:19:27.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I don't know.
[01:19:27.850 --> 01:19:29.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: You would know better as a driver there, but...
[01:19:29.650 --> 01:19:33.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's always held out as the carrot in front of somebody.
[01:19:33.190 --> 01:19:33.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, golly.
[01:19:33.770 --> 01:19:35.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, let me just sign right up.
[01:19:35.370 --> 01:19:36.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's a little cynical.
[01:19:37.190 --> 01:19:39.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right, thanks for your call and for all that information.
[01:19:39.970 --> 01:19:40.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're welcome, guys.
[01:19:40.890 --> 01:19:41.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Have a good evening.
[01:19:41.710 --> 01:19:42.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right, take care.
[01:19:43.230 --> 01:19:43.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:19:43.850 --> 01:19:52.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Junts writes in to us saying, Washington state website has multiple reporting options, including prepaying for blocks of miles and self-reporting of odometer readings.
[01:19:52.930 --> 01:19:54.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I don't like where this is going.
[01:19:54.610 --> 01:19:56.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want to have a black box in my car.
[01:19:56.890 --> 01:20:02.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want to be given, you know, tickets for doing slightly wrong things at any time.
[01:20:02.970 --> 01:20:04.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: It just feels like utter surveillance.
[01:20:05.110 --> 01:20:15.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: And yeah, it might work for fleet operators on massive 18-wheelers and things like that where you're working for somebody, but as individuals, no, I'm kind of surprised Wyoming of all places is pushing something like this.
[01:20:15.630 --> 01:20:22.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it seems like, you know, he had a potential solution just by registering a car outside the state and then you wouldn't have to do it at all.
[01:20:23.050 --> 01:20:24.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Honestly, that's really common in Washington.
[01:20:24.650 --> 01:20:27.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's tons of people that get organ plates.
[01:20:27.650 --> 01:20:32.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: They go wherever else and then the car ends up being there constantly.
[01:20:32.810 --> 01:20:35.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, there's all kinds of...
[01:20:35.150 --> 01:20:38.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's just from tabs on license plate registration.
[01:20:39.770 --> 01:20:48.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: People don't want to pay whatever it is because it's rated based on the type of vehicle and emissions, I believe, was part of it.
[01:20:49.210 --> 01:20:55.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so, if it's a more environmentally costly car, you might have higher tabs.
[01:20:55.530 --> 01:20:58.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, if you want the sporty car, you have to pay.
[01:20:58.890 --> 01:21:00.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's a tab, Kyle?
[01:21:00.350 --> 01:21:02.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like registration for the year.
[01:21:02.130 --> 01:21:02.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[01:21:02.610 --> 01:21:04.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: We don't use that word here in New York.
[01:21:04.310 --> 01:21:04.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's like a sticker.
[01:21:04.830 --> 01:21:05.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[01:21:05.230 --> 01:21:05.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:21:05.590 --> 01:21:06.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, there's...
[01:21:06.910 --> 01:21:08.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a cat and mouse thing.
[01:21:08.650 --> 01:21:09.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, it's really interesting.
[01:21:10.410 --> 01:21:12.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802-321-4225 is our phone number.
[01:21:12.670 --> 01:21:13.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Line is open.
[01:21:13.630 --> 01:21:14.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: And when I say line, I mean it.
[01:21:14.690 --> 01:21:15.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: We only have one line.
[01:21:15.670 --> 01:21:19.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you aren't the person talking to us, you get voicemail and we can't turn it off.
[01:21:19.570 --> 01:21:19.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're sorry.
[01:21:20.590 --> 01:21:24.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's just the way the system is set up.
[01:21:24.190 --> 01:21:25.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, it looks like you have something to say.
[01:21:26.710 --> 01:21:27.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got your...
[01:21:28.370 --> 01:21:29.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I always have something to say.
[01:21:29.870 --> 01:21:32.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I probably forgot what it was at this point.
[01:21:33.070 --> 01:21:35.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, I do think this is an interesting caller.
[01:21:36.370 --> 01:21:41.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think, again, the local chapter of the ACLU may be best suited to deal with this.
[01:21:41.890 --> 01:21:48.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I'm really, you know, surprised at this notion of individual taxation.
[01:21:48.650 --> 01:21:52.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: That, you know, it's a very specific thing based on usage.
[01:21:52.310 --> 01:21:56.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: And maybe, you know, large trucking companies are going to be paying more of their fair share.
[01:21:56.730 --> 01:22:03.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it just seems like a major privacy invasion for a minor benefit.
[01:22:03.630 --> 01:22:03.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:22:04.110 --> 01:22:09.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're going to be paying a little bit less in taxes, perhaps, but you have to give up all this privacy.
[01:22:09.290 --> 01:22:12.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, it's not a minor benefit for the consumer.
[01:22:12.170 --> 01:22:16.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a major benefit for the government because they get to track everybody.
[01:22:17.370 --> 01:22:22.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And people willingly go along with this because of the promise of, you know, saving a few pennies.
[01:22:22.910 --> 01:22:29.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, then the issue, too, is that if the government is tracking that, how are they storing that particular data?
[01:22:29.190 --> 01:22:30.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: With whom are they sharing it?
[01:22:30.310 --> 01:22:30.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's how.
[01:22:30.970 --> 01:22:31.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's going to get leaked.
[01:22:31.750 --> 01:22:32.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: People are going to find it.
[01:22:32.730 --> 01:22:33.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a nightmare.
[01:22:33.630 --> 01:22:35.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've learned this so many times.
[01:22:35.830 --> 01:22:38.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: But more than people finding it, sure, it can be leaked.
[01:22:38.410 --> 01:22:48.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: But also, if that data is available on almost every citizen in the state, and I say this every time we talk about data repositories, is that it's going to be subpoenaed.
[01:22:48.530 --> 01:22:50.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: People are going to ask the government for it.
[01:22:50.710 --> 01:22:54.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: If they know that that data is there, you're going to see subpoenas for that information.
[01:22:54.770 --> 01:23:00.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it will be shared because at that point, you're going to have to respond to legal process like the government is.
[01:23:00.850 --> 01:23:04.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it'll be interesting to see how this shakes out.
[01:23:04.430 --> 01:23:09.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'd like to learn more about other states that have implemented some kind of measure like this.
[01:23:09.590 --> 01:23:14.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, if I can, as long as they're spewing out acronyms, EFF and ACLU, I think one more might be helpful and that's AAA.
[01:23:15.850 --> 01:23:21.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: They might take a very keen interest in this in the state of Wyoming and maybe they're good at leading lobbying efforts.
[01:23:21.530 --> 01:23:24.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just not sure exactly what direction they'll go in on this.
[01:23:24.890 --> 01:23:28.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I think with enough consumer input, they might make the right choice.
[01:23:28.830 --> 01:23:31.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Our phone number, 802-321-4225.
[01:23:32.270 --> 01:23:34.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're going to give it a couple more minutes so if any more calls come in.
[01:23:34.470 --> 01:23:35.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: If not, we'll sign off for the night.
[01:23:36.750 --> 01:23:40.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anything else happening in our lives that we didn't get a chance to talk to on the show?
[01:23:40.970 --> 01:23:42.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Talk about it on the show?
[01:23:42.290 --> 01:23:42.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: No?
[01:23:42.870 --> 01:23:51.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm here in Pennsylvania and we've had literally now within the last week and a half about four feet of snow in the Poconos.
[01:23:51.370 --> 01:23:53.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've got snow here in New York.
[01:23:53.250 --> 01:23:54.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've got snow too.
[01:23:54.750 --> 01:23:56.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've had like three snowstorms.
[01:23:56.950 --> 01:23:58.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is crazy.
[01:23:58.650 --> 01:24:02.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: This felt like I was living in another planet where it just snows all the time.
[01:24:02.250 --> 01:24:06.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it was three days without the snow stopping at all...
[01:24:06.290 --> 01:24:07.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope you're not complaining.
[01:24:07.550 --> 01:24:08.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope this isn't complaining.
[01:24:08.570 --> 01:24:11.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope this is just you expressing your wonderment at the whole thing.
[01:24:11.830 --> 01:24:15.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it is wonderment and it is absolutely gorgeous.
[01:24:16.350 --> 01:24:24.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, there are some inconveniences that go along with having to shovel out snow and the balcony and all these kinds of things.
[01:24:24.870 --> 01:24:25.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's really...
[01:24:25.790 --> 01:24:39.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: it's been crazy and having lived in the 802 for three years myself, I mean, I'm no stranger to snow, but I feel like this was really something extraordinary over the last week and a half to see this.
[01:24:41.130 --> 01:24:46.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if we're not going to have a caller, I can tell a really interesting story about snow in the 802.
[01:24:47.130 --> 01:24:50.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if you are a caller, you can interrupt Alex's story midway through.
[01:24:50.630 --> 01:24:51.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: So take it the fun.
[01:24:51.330 --> 01:24:51.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[01:24:52.250 --> 01:24:57.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: So my first year of law school in Vermont, my girlfriend at the time has a pit bull.
[01:24:57.730 --> 01:24:59.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: The pit bull's name was Never.
[01:24:59.490 --> 01:24:59.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Don't...
[01:24:59.970 --> 01:25:02.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's another story, you know, naming a dog an adverb, but...
[01:25:02.990 --> 01:25:03.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Never?
[01:25:03.870 --> 01:25:04.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Never.
[01:25:04.630 --> 01:25:04.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:25:05.150 --> 01:25:06.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wait, there's never an adverb?
[01:25:06.630 --> 01:25:08.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, she was rescued from Brentwood.
[01:25:08.830 --> 01:25:12.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: She fell into the dive tank at the Brentwood public pool.
[01:25:13.170 --> 01:25:17.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: And my girlfriend was a lifeguard there and she saved this dog and adopted her.
[01:25:17.550 --> 01:25:22.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in any event, so Never had never actually seen snow this high.
[01:25:22.710 --> 01:25:30.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: When we came back from the Christmas break, there was about three feet of snow where I lived in Vermont up this dirt road on a mountain and it was...
[01:25:30.810 --> 01:25:32.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: She had a lot of difficulty.
[01:25:32.650 --> 01:25:33.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow, never is an adverb.
[01:25:34.050 --> 01:25:35.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry, I just looked that up.
[01:25:35.410 --> 01:25:35.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: You did.
[01:25:36.070 --> 01:25:37.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I learned something today.
[01:25:37.510 --> 01:25:38.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, I'm sorry, continue.
[01:25:39.670 --> 01:25:41.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, because, you know, look, it's modifying a verb, right?
[01:25:41.970 --> 01:25:43.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: You never do something.
[01:25:43.370 --> 01:25:46.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Most adverbs end in L-Y, but I'm not going to belabor the point.
[01:25:46.630 --> 01:25:47.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sure.
[01:25:47.010 --> 01:25:49.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, well, they modify verbs, right?
[01:25:49.970 --> 01:25:52.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, this is a minor digression.
[01:25:52.430 --> 01:25:53.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't know never ending.
[01:25:54.150 --> 01:25:57.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wait, never ending is not an adverb, I don't think.
[01:25:57.550 --> 01:25:57.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[01:25:58.510 --> 01:26:04.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, in any event, never is unable to do her business.
[01:26:04.270 --> 01:26:07.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: She's unable to go to the bathroom outside because the snow is so deep.
[01:26:07.930 --> 01:26:10.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: This poor pit bull is just sinking into the snow.
[01:26:10.390 --> 01:26:10.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: She can't go.
[01:26:10.950 --> 01:26:17.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, she's holding in this poop for three days, right?
[01:26:18.370 --> 01:26:19.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, boy.
[01:26:19.090 --> 01:26:19.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: She hasn't gone.
[01:26:20.070 --> 01:26:24.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: We go grocery shopping in New Hampshire in West Lebanon.
[01:26:24.370 --> 01:26:24.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry.
[01:26:24.970 --> 01:26:31.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just have to break in because dogs, for some reason, why is it that there's undue attention on how they relieve themselves?
[01:26:31.910 --> 01:26:33.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's all they seem to be about.
[01:26:33.490 --> 01:26:34.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: You never have this with cats.
[01:26:34.990 --> 01:26:37.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Any other animal in the animal kingdom, they do their business.
[01:26:37.810 --> 01:26:38.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't know about it.
[01:26:38.650 --> 01:26:42.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: It just happens somewhere off camera, but with dogs front and center.
[01:26:42.610 --> 01:26:46.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I drive down the street, there's a dog in the middle of a lawn, you know, doing things.
[01:26:46.790 --> 01:26:47.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I'm getting triggered.
[01:26:47.730 --> 01:26:48.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: I grew up on a dog farm.
[01:26:48.930 --> 01:26:49.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just don't need this.
[01:26:49.850 --> 01:26:52.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: What is it about these animals that that's what they're all about?
[01:26:52.450 --> 01:26:53.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or is it us?
[01:26:53.270 --> 01:26:54.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are we doing it to them?
[01:26:54.750 --> 01:26:58.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: It might just be you fixating on it.
[01:26:58.330 --> 01:26:58.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[01:26:59.830 --> 01:27:00.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Dogs out walking.
[01:27:00.790 --> 01:27:01.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why is a dog out walking?
[01:27:01.730 --> 01:27:04.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because he has to defecate or urinate or something like that, you know?
[01:27:04.590 --> 01:27:05.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why is the cat out?
[01:27:05.590 --> 01:27:07.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: The cat's out because it wants to be out.
[01:27:07.730 --> 01:27:09.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: They've been living with us for 10,000 years.
[01:27:09.710 --> 01:27:11.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: You think by now they've learned to use a toilet.
[01:27:11.490 --> 01:27:11.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: I get it.
[01:27:12.010 --> 01:27:12.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:27:12.610 --> 01:27:14.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, in any event, never...
[01:27:14.690 --> 01:27:15.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: She can't go to the bathroom.
[01:27:15.850 --> 01:27:17.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: She's holding it in for three days.
[01:27:18.250 --> 01:27:19.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Come back from the grocery store.
[01:27:20.610 --> 01:27:22.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I lived in a barn.
[01:27:22.210 --> 01:27:25.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, it was a barn that was converted into a living space.
[01:27:25.830 --> 01:27:27.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so we went upstairs...
[01:27:27.130 --> 01:27:28.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wait, you lived in the barn?
[01:27:28.870 --> 01:27:30.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I lived in a barn.
[01:27:30.190 --> 01:27:31.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: That explains a lot.
[01:27:31.310 --> 01:27:32.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: You were brought up in a barn then.
[01:27:33.610 --> 01:27:33.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: No.
[01:27:34.310 --> 01:27:35.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wish I was, actually.
[01:27:39.710 --> 01:27:45.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: There was that telltale smell that she had gone to the bathroom, finally, after three days.
[01:27:45.970 --> 01:27:50.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so I go into the little study area that I had with all my first-year law books.
[01:27:50.790 --> 01:28:02.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: And she had done her business entirely and squarely without touching the carpet or anything off the mark on one of my law textbooks.
[01:28:02.650 --> 01:28:05.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it was a textbook for my tort class.
[01:28:06.210 --> 01:28:08.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, torts are non-civil wrongs.
[01:28:08.750 --> 01:28:11.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: So like, a personal injury claim would be a tort claim.
[01:28:11.530 --> 01:28:18.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the name of the book on which she defecated, I'm not kidding, was Accidental Justice.
[01:28:19.890 --> 01:28:21.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope, Alex.
[01:28:21.810 --> 01:28:22.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope.
[01:28:22.430 --> 01:28:25.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because you will never get this opportunity again.
[01:28:25.590 --> 01:28:27.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope you took a picture of this.
[01:28:29.370 --> 01:28:29.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:28:30.130 --> 01:28:31.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I mean, it was true.
[01:28:31.810 --> 01:28:33.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, the dog had a sense of humor.
[01:28:33.490 --> 01:28:34.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was incredible.
[01:28:34.210 --> 01:28:35.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was accidental, Justin.
[01:28:35.470 --> 01:28:42.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Every legal seminar into the void of history in the future will have a picture of this if you took a picture.
[01:28:43.950 --> 01:28:45.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I don't know, actually.
[01:28:46.010 --> 01:28:46.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't remember if I had a picture.
[01:28:47.030 --> 01:28:48.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: This was way back in 2002.
[01:28:49.050 --> 01:28:51.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would go out and buy a camera to take a picture of that.
[01:28:51.750 --> 01:28:52.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Come on.
[01:28:52.170 --> 01:28:53.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's such commentary.
[01:28:54.610 --> 01:28:55.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Back into the snow.
[01:28:55.810 --> 01:28:56.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, somewhere I might.
[01:28:56.990 --> 01:28:57.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I might, actually.
[01:28:58.870 --> 01:28:59.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:28:59.330 --> 01:29:01.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think we're out of listeners and out of time.
[01:29:02.010 --> 01:29:07.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, I want to thank people for calling and for writing and for listening and for just being there.
[01:29:08.350 --> 01:29:12.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we, of course, will be back next week for both Off The Hook and Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:29:13.790 --> 01:29:14.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: See you guys.
[01:29:16.080 --> 01:29:16.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[01:29:17.670 --> 01:29:17.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bye.