Off The Hook - 2021-03-24

[01:00.910 --> 01:02.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:02.730 --> 01:04.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: The program is Off The Hook.
[01:04.330 --> 01:07.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[01:07.170 --> 01:07.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:08.330 --> 01:13.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Rob and Gila are with us in Skype-land, I believe.
[01:13.590 --> 01:13.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rob?
[01:14.170 --> 01:14.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[01:15.590 --> 01:16.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[01:16.570 --> 01:18.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Alex will be joining us as soon as he arrives.
[01:18.830 --> 01:20.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's currently in transit.
[01:21.350 --> 01:24.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have all kinds of updates, folks, all kinds of things to tell people about.
[01:26.230 --> 01:29.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have our first show in two weeks.
[01:29.470 --> 01:33.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to be on next week, but the good news is we'll be on for five consecutive weeks after that.
[01:33.790 --> 01:37.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that is where we stand as far as that goes.
[01:37.710 --> 01:41.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I understand, Rob and Gila, you just got back from your second vaccine.
[01:41.430 --> 01:42.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is that right?
[01:42.290 --> 01:43.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: We sure did.
[01:43.390 --> 01:43.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:44.130 --> 01:44.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:44.290 --> 01:45.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to ask you all about that.
[01:45.470 --> 01:55.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: But first, I just want to share some information that is kind of late-breaking or of great importance, I think.
[01:55.090 --> 01:55.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe it's not.
[01:55.970 --> 01:57.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe it's of no importance whatsoever.
[01:57.910 --> 02:00.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we'll find out, I guess.
[02:00.350 --> 02:01.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hopefully, we'll find out.
[02:01.050 --> 02:06.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: A few weeks ago, a few weeks ago, we received... or actually, I received an email from Facebook.
[02:07.510 --> 02:07.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[02:08.190 --> 02:09.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't use Facebook all that much.
[02:10.170 --> 02:10.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Not a fan.
[02:11.130 --> 02:16.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I am on there, and I do communicate with people through Facebook Messenger.
[02:16.670 --> 02:21.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, I have it going through my trillion client.
[02:21.970 --> 02:22.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm able to tie it in.
[02:22.990 --> 02:28.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Facebook Messenger somehow talks to people that way, and I'm able to sometimes, sometimes communicate.
[02:29.010 --> 02:30.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's flaky at best.
[02:30.350 --> 02:31.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I don't use it very much.
[02:32.010 --> 02:38.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I was surprised to receive a letter from records at records.facebook.com.
[02:38.890 --> 02:40.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's the real thing.
[02:40.630 --> 02:44.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it wasn't fake email or anything like that.
[02:44.210 --> 02:45.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it was addressed to me.
[02:45.870 --> 02:46.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: It said, hello.
[02:46.970 --> 02:57.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: This notice is to inform you that we receive legal process from law enforcement seeking information about your account and produce data as required by law.
[02:57.270 --> 03:09.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: The legal process was accompanied by an order that prohibited us from disclosing information about the case until a specific time had expired, and we were legally required to produce the records specified in the demand.
[03:10.430 --> 03:14.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this was dated March 4th, 3.35 in the morning.
[03:15.290 --> 03:24.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you would like additional information about the legal process, please let us know as soon as possible by responding to this email signed law enforcement response team.
[03:25.430 --> 03:30.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you can imagine we were very interested in finding out just what this was about.
[03:30.210 --> 03:34.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: And so we said, yes, please forward all information concerning this case.
[03:34.750 --> 03:36.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Six minutes later, we got a response.
[03:37.110 --> 03:38.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think it was a human.
[03:38.850 --> 03:40.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it was something automated.
[03:40.650 --> 03:41.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: It said, hello.
[03:41.970 --> 03:46.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: For more information, the requesting agency may be reached at the contact information below.
[03:47.350 --> 03:51.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: The agency contact information, United States Federal Bureau of Investigation.
[03:53.510 --> 03:56.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And two agency case numbers were given.
[03:56.870 --> 03:58.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: One number or a different number.
[03:58.550 --> 03:59.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not going to read the numbers out.
[03:59.910 --> 04:00.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not...
[04:00.290 --> 04:03.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if it's something that I shouldn't share.
[04:03.470 --> 04:06.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: But for now, I don't see any reason to share it.
[04:06.890 --> 04:08.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: But there are two different numbers.
[04:09.810 --> 04:12.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: And one of them begins with 2017.
[04:14.150 --> 04:17.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: So read into that whatever you might.
[04:18.930 --> 04:21.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: 2017, the first year of the Trump administration.
[04:23.990 --> 04:25.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was a while ago.
[04:25.310 --> 04:26.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was a while, four years ago.
[04:26.990 --> 04:30.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: The court, United States District Court, Southern District of New York.
[04:30.890 --> 04:33.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: We are unable to provide you with legal advice.
[04:33.930 --> 04:36.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would never ask Facebook for legal advice, believe me.
[04:36.970 --> 04:42.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you have questions about this notification, we suggest that you consult with an attorney.
[04:42.270 --> 04:43.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you, Law Enforcement Response Team.
[04:44.290 --> 04:45.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, that's it.
[04:45.730 --> 04:46.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Our hands are clean.
[04:46.510 --> 04:47.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to talk about this anymore.
[04:47.930 --> 04:49.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: You have to do the work from this point on.
[04:49.670 --> 04:50.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Fair enough.
[04:50.950 --> 04:53.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Since then, since March 4th...
[04:53.190 --> 04:53.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's today?
[04:53.930 --> 04:56.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Today's March the 24th.
[04:57.270 --> 04:57.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: 24th.
[04:58.150 --> 04:58.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: 20 days.
[04:59.050 --> 04:59.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Literally 20 days.
[05:00.670 --> 05:05.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have had people trying to get more information from the FBI as to just what this is all about.
[05:05.510 --> 05:09.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we have not gotten a response.
[05:10.090 --> 05:19.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have found out that the person who is not calling us back is part of, and get ready for this, the Terrorism Task Force.
[05:20.510 --> 05:23.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, read into that whatever you will.
[05:24.790 --> 05:36.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, my Facebook account, which I barely use, was being investigated by the FBI, and apparently has some kind of relationship to the Terrorism Task Force.
[05:37.470 --> 05:39.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that might have been going on since 2017.
[05:42.310 --> 05:43.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would like to discuss this.
[05:43.890 --> 05:51.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would like to have all kinds of back and forth, but I think for legal reasons, it makes sense to just try and get more information.
[05:51.070 --> 05:54.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: What we're doing here tonight is just telling you what we know.
[05:54.530 --> 05:55.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now you know everything that we know.
[05:57.770 --> 06:07.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to answer questions later on overtime when we take phone calls, because there's really nothing that we can say at this point that would be constructive or helpful in any way.
[06:07.470 --> 06:11.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: We are going to continue to try and get more information as to just what in God's name this is about.
[06:12.070 --> 06:18.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I got to tell you, as the person who is being targeted here for one reason or another, it's very unsettling.
[06:18.510 --> 06:21.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's especially unsettling when you don't get answers to your questions.
[06:22.970 --> 06:26.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know, did Facebook maybe make a mistake and they weren't supposed to tell me?
[06:27.030 --> 06:34.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are there other social media accounts that have been also brought into this investigation, whatever it is they're investigating?
[06:35.570 --> 06:36.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: I really want to know.
[06:37.050 --> 06:37.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: I really want to know.
[06:38.090 --> 06:46.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's very frustrating and, as I said, unsettling to know that you're in someone's sights like this.
[06:47.730 --> 06:50.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I wonder, you know, I might be able to talk about this on the radio.
[06:51.030 --> 06:55.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm able to talk about this in the magazine and on websites and things like that and be heard.
[06:55.390 --> 06:58.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: How many people have something like this happen and are not heard?
[06:58.410 --> 07:02.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: What happens when you're not even informed that you're being investigated?
[07:05.570 --> 07:07.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a crazy time we live in.
[07:09.130 --> 07:14.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we're in it together and we're going to continue to keep you apprised.
[07:14.850 --> 07:17.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: So keep watching the website, 2600.com.
[07:17.990 --> 07:22.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Keep listening here on WBAI for Off The Hook most Wednesday nights at 7 o'clock.
[07:23.350 --> 07:28.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: And of course, Overtime Follows at 8 o'clock on our YouTube channel, which is Channel2600.
[07:29.390 --> 07:33.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you can call us at that time with questions or comments about other things.
[07:34.150 --> 07:39.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to be talking about this anymore because we just wanted to let people know what's going on.
[07:40.170 --> 07:44.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: We are curious if other people have had these kinds of correspondences from various services.
[07:44.910 --> 07:45.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, this has happened to you.
[07:45.850 --> 07:46.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let us know that.
[07:46.430 --> 07:47.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'd like to know that.
[07:47.110 --> 07:56.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'd like to hear some stories about how they kind of handled it or what sort of things helped them navigate or at least get more information as we've stated here.
[07:56.850 --> 07:58.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we're not going to speculate.
[07:58.510 --> 08:00.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not constructive at this point.
[08:01.630 --> 08:03.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll definitely pick this up.
[08:03.510 --> 08:04.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was a busy time.
[08:05.450 --> 08:05.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: 2017?
[08:06.370 --> 08:07.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: If that's what that means.
[08:07.910 --> 08:11.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe that just happens to be the number that one of the case numbers begins with.
[08:12.230 --> 08:13.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll find out, I'm sure.
[08:13.550 --> 08:16.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is something we'll, as you said, update everyone about.
[08:17.030 --> 08:18.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, the other case number begins with 19.
[08:18.650 --> 08:20.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not giving away too much information here.
[08:20.470 --> 08:21.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: So maybe 2019.
[08:21.710 --> 08:22.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe something happened.
[08:22.790 --> 08:23.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe there's two cases.
[08:23.550 --> 08:23.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Who knows?
[08:24.670 --> 08:25.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Again, I'm not going to speculate.
[08:26.110 --> 08:30.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, so let's get back to what we were talking about a moment ago.
[08:30.210 --> 08:33.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rob and Gila, you've just gotten back from your second shots.
[08:33.890 --> 08:34.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is that correct?
[08:35.670 --> 08:37.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is indeed correct.
[08:37.430 --> 08:37.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[08:37.970 --> 08:39.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: How is it different than the first shot?
[08:40.510 --> 08:44.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Honestly, it went... the whole process went even faster today.
[08:45.030 --> 08:56.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: It took us longer to get to the vaccine site than it did to get the shot and wait to make sure we didn't go into anaphylaxis.
[08:57.590 --> 09:02.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, the whole system ran very, very smoothly today.
[09:03.250 --> 09:07.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we got kicked out of the selfie site.
[09:08.410 --> 09:11.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Someone came over and yelled at people in the selfie site and sent them to the outside selfie site.
[09:11.970 --> 09:13.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: What is a selfie site?
[09:13.970 --> 09:26.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is a step and repeat at the end of the hall, basically at the Javits Center, that is designed for people to, you know, take pictures like, hey, I got my vaccine.
[09:26.550 --> 09:28.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Next to a wall of thanks, which is very lovely.
[09:28.530 --> 09:30.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is a wall of thanks, which is very lovely.
[09:30.630 --> 09:33.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then a little step and repeat that says, you know, vaccinate New York, whatever.
[09:35.750 --> 09:37.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a guy was taking his picture there.
[09:37.930 --> 09:43.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then one of the staff at the facility said, no, go to the other one.
[09:43.090 --> 09:47.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there is an official MTA selfie site there.
[09:47.990 --> 09:48.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[09:49.130 --> 09:55.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, we did as we had been instructed and we took the MTA selfie too.
[09:57.170 --> 09:58.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, very smooth.
[09:58.650 --> 10:00.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will say that my arm does hurt a little bit.
[10:02.610 --> 10:04.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: You just got stabbed in your arm.
[10:04.270 --> 10:05.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it should hurt a little bit.
[10:05.770 --> 10:06.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[10:06.410 --> 10:12.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: It didn't hurt the, the, the nurse who gave us our shots today was very, very skilled.
[10:13.070 --> 10:16.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: We, neither of us had any pain at the injection site, but now it hurts a little bit.
[10:17.110 --> 10:17.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[10:17.790 --> 10:19.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Which is similar to the last time.
[10:19.410 --> 10:21.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it didn't hurt at the time.
[10:21.430 --> 10:26.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: It now it's a little painful at the injection site and we're a bit tired, a bit lethargic.
[10:27.210 --> 10:29.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can expect to lose tomorrow from what I hear.
[10:30.350 --> 10:32.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Tomorrow might be a wasted day as far as recovery.
[10:34.210 --> 10:35.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it'll be a nice day for it.
[10:35.810 --> 10:36.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: It certainly will.
[10:36.610 --> 10:39.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: But all things considered, we're doing great.
[10:40.470 --> 10:41.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's, that's good to hear.
[10:41.510 --> 10:42.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Happy to be through it.
[10:42.330 --> 10:43.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is, that is, that is great to hear.
[10:43.810 --> 10:46.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've got mine coming up in a couple of days, my second shot.
[10:46.870 --> 10:49.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I was at the dentist today, so I'm feeling some pain.
[10:49.670 --> 10:51.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I guess maybe pain is the theme of the show tonight.
[10:52.070 --> 10:57.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, but it's great to, uh, to know that we're, we're, we're taking these, these steps, these important steps.
[11:03.010 --> 11:08.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, from, uh, Joseph in Manhattan, he said, uh, you folks all sound too young and healthy to have procured vaccines.
[11:08.710 --> 11:09.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's the deal?
[11:09.730 --> 11:11.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, well, Joseph, first of all, thank you.
[11:11.490 --> 11:14.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for thinking of us as, uh, young and healthy.
[11:14.890 --> 11:16.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I don't know.
[11:16.630 --> 11:16.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[11:17.150 --> 11:20.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are we, it's open to interpretation, but, uh, here's the thing.
[11:20.890 --> 11:28.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and, and you might not know this and a lot of people might not realize this, but it's, um, it's a private bit of information, how people qualify.
[11:29.050 --> 11:33.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sometimes, uh, people are, are happy to give away that information.
[11:33.370 --> 11:37.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: I happen to tell people, yeah, I've got asthma and that qualified me.
[11:37.750 --> 11:39.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: I asked my doctor, okay.
[11:39.150 --> 11:41.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I honestly didn't expect to qualify.
[11:41.450 --> 11:45.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: I asked her, would this allow me to get a, uh, a vaccine?
[11:45.770 --> 11:46.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: And she said, yes.
[11:46.930 --> 11:49.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I didn't push for it.
[11:49.270 --> 11:50.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't campaign for it.
[11:50.190 --> 11:51.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just asked a question.
[11:51.270 --> 11:53.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: And when she said, yes, what am I going to do?
[11:53.290 --> 11:58.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are you going to say, no, I don't think, I don't think I, I've, I've got that bad, a case of asthma.
[11:58.210 --> 12:05.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: So if you qualify under any of the comorbidities or age, uh, qualifications, take the vaccine.
[12:06.050 --> 12:23.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: There is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about, but most of all, um, it's, um, it's, it's not something that, uh, other people, other than the, the, the folks who are administering the vaccine or qualifying you for the vaccine, it's not really shareable information.
[12:23.050 --> 12:32.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I know that, um, you're curious and you want to know, uh, uh, if, uh, if we jump the line, I can assure you, nobody is jumping the line here at all.
[12:32.030 --> 12:44.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, if you are out there and, uh, you look at all the, uh, different comorbidity, comorbidity, uh, qualifications from your particular region, whatever part of the world that happens to be, um, and you qualify, don't feel guilty.
[12:45.170 --> 12:47.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take the qualification and, and take the vaccine.
[12:47.890 --> 12:54.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the important thing is to get that vaccine to get as many people vaccinated as possible so that we can get past this thing.
[12:54.190 --> 12:55.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we can go back to the studio.
[12:55.750 --> 12:57.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I can see you people in person.
[12:58.210 --> 13:00.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, that's really what it's all about.
[13:00.910 --> 13:14.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, it's, it's really frustrating to hear, uh, disinformation again, rearing its ugly heads through social media, through, uh, idiotic, uh, mass media and just through people who are not informed.
[13:15.150 --> 13:22.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we try to stay as informed as possible and, uh, and, and share the information that we, uh, uh, we obtain.
[13:22.930 --> 13:26.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, that's, that's, that's what we do here on this radio station.
[13:26.390 --> 13:29.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I hope everybody listening tries to do as well.
[13:29.830 --> 13:36.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I've been very, very impressed so far with, I'd say everybody I know, uh, who are all doing the responsible things.
[13:37.070 --> 13:38.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's going to get easier.
[13:38.290 --> 13:42.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you've had frustration, getting the vaccine, I know it's frustrating.
[13:42.970 --> 13:47.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've, I've helped dozens of people get appointments, people who qualify, obviously.
[13:47.870 --> 13:49.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, here's the good news.
[13:49.810 --> 13:53.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here's a good sign, uh, of the many of those people.
[13:54.390 --> 13:57.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've noticed that some of them have canceled their appointments.
[13:57.770 --> 13:57.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why?
[13:57.990 --> 14:01.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because they got better appointments because they were able to do it themselves.
[14:01.930 --> 14:05.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Weeks after I was able to procure an appointment, say in, in April or something.
[14:05.930 --> 14:07.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the reason it's gotten easier.
[14:07.450 --> 14:09.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: There are more vaccines available.
[14:09.610 --> 14:14.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, they've actually been able to navigate the site themselves and find something earlier.
[14:14.470 --> 14:19.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's funny because people thought I'd be offended that they canceled the appointment that I got them.
[14:20.410 --> 14:21.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, no cancel.
[14:21.750 --> 14:24.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you get a better appointment, I will not be offended.
[14:24.330 --> 14:24.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's, that's good.
[14:24.930 --> 14:28.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just make sure you cancel because that opens it up for somebody else.
[14:28.770 --> 14:31.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: The fact that, um, uh, the sites are changing.
[14:31.770 --> 14:33.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: The New York state site has changed.
[14:33.370 --> 14:36.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, it's, it's no longer possible to just keep refreshing.
[14:36.430 --> 14:40.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: You have to, uh, swear that, you know, robot, and sometimes you got to do that capture thing.
[14:40.690 --> 14:46.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I always get into trouble with that because I have different opinions as to what is a traffic light and what is not.
[14:46.690 --> 14:56.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so it's, um, it's harder to have an advantage if you're automated, but that means it's easier for individual people to go out there and get their own vaccine.
[14:56.730 --> 14:58.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm hoping to see more of that.
[14:58.310 --> 15:04.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think by the time we hit May, we'll have more vaccines than, uh, than we can administer.
[15:04.430 --> 15:06.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, you know, in Europe, that's a problem right now.
[15:07.010 --> 15:19.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, there are vaccines being wasted and there's a lot of, uh, false rumors going around about, uh, about one of the, uh, vaccines, which is simply not true, but it's inevitable that misinformation gets spread around.
[15:19.910 --> 15:21.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: So please don't be a part of that.
[15:21.830 --> 15:25.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Help, uh, guide people to, um, uh, to logical conclusions.
[15:25.650 --> 15:27.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: I see Alex, you're joining us.
[15:27.350 --> 15:29.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, how was, how was the traffic getting to Pennsylvania?
[15:30.510 --> 15:31.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was pretty bad.
[15:31.630 --> 15:39.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have to say there was a massive car accident, about four or five car accident, um, interstate 80 heading west.
[15:40.050 --> 15:42.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, that's why I'm a bit late here.
[15:42.910 --> 15:43.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, welcome.
[15:43.810 --> 15:44.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome to the show.
[15:45.250 --> 15:45.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[15:45.690 --> 15:46.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, well, thank you.
[15:46.450 --> 15:47.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's good to be here as always.
[15:48.030 --> 15:48.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, what did I miss?
[15:49.290 --> 15:54.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, well, I mean, we can talk later about other things, but we're talking mostly about the, the vaccine right now.
[15:54.310 --> 15:56.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're going to talk about a lot of other, uh, technical issues.
[15:56.130 --> 15:58.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we're going to have a special guest at about half past as well.
[15:58.930 --> 16:00.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, so expect some fun.
[16:01.050 --> 16:04.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, but, um, on the vaccine now, I know you'd gotten your first shot.
[16:04.850 --> 16:05.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have you gotten your second shot yet?
[16:06.010 --> 16:07.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got my second shot last week.
[16:07.550 --> 16:07.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: You did.
[16:07.910 --> 16:08.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: How have you fared?
[16:09.290 --> 16:09.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: I am.
[16:09.850 --> 16:11.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm eight days into my second shot.
[16:11.530 --> 16:13.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: The second shot really knocked me on my butt.
[16:13.830 --> 16:27.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: I had, uh, the Moderna shot, which seems to be a bit rougher on the system than the Pfizer that, you know, that's, that's, that's, I think that's what they give the, the weaker feeble minded people is, um, you know, the Pfizer shot, uh, the Moderna shot.
[16:27.930 --> 16:28.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: Are we going to do this?
[16:29.110 --> 16:29.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are we going to do this, Alex?
[16:30.030 --> 16:33.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because you know, we got the Pfizer shots, you know, uh, Rob and Gila and me.
[16:34.050 --> 16:38.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and, and you're the only one that has gotten the Moderna shot and right.
[16:38.450 --> 16:47.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think that was the only one that that qualified for it in terms of mental and physical fortitude to, to withstand that, that kind of, um, is that what they told you?
[16:47.950 --> 16:48.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: They told you that.
[16:48.590 --> 16:48.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[16:48.750 --> 16:52.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it's, um, uh, yeah, but it really did.
[16:52.030 --> 16:52.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: It, it knocked me out.
[16:53.070 --> 16:54.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, that, that first day was pretty rough.
[16:54.750 --> 16:57.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: My arm felt like, you know, a boxer at the end of a 12 round battle.
[16:58.730 --> 17:01.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was just had his arm pummeled repeatedly by his opponent.
[17:02.390 --> 17:03.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because you know what that feels like.
[17:04.670 --> 17:05.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Absolutely.
[17:05.030 --> 17:05.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: I do.
[17:05.550 --> 17:09.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like I said, I have the mental and physical fortitude to deal with such a hero vaccine.
[17:10.410 --> 17:10.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[17:10.750 --> 17:15.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it really, the next day was really rough.
[17:16.110 --> 17:17.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was in, I was in bad shape.
[17:17.550 --> 17:21.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: I had a series of meetings and things and I was, I, it was, it was really horrendous.
[17:21.630 --> 17:22.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take the day off.
[17:22.570 --> 17:24.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you get the second shot, take the day off afterwards.
[17:25.050 --> 17:28.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you don't feel bad, then have a nice day to yourself.
[17:28.590 --> 17:29.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: You deserve it.
[17:29.530 --> 17:30.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[17:30.350 --> 17:30.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's good effects.
[17:30.970 --> 17:39.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: But really, I mean, that, those side effects sort of bleed, you know, bled into the, the, the, the second day after, but I'm, I was fine.
[17:39.510 --> 17:43.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, by that second day I was fine and I was grateful for the side effects.
[17:43.570 --> 17:47.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, I feel more confident about, uh, about life right now.
[17:47.870 --> 17:48.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's good.
[17:48.690 --> 17:50.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a nice side effect.
[17:50.670 --> 17:50.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[17:51.030 --> 17:52.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh, okay, good.
[17:52.430 --> 17:53.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it looks like Voltaire is joining us.
[17:54.070 --> 17:54.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Voltaire, is that you?
[17:56.270 --> 17:56.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yeah.
[17:57.090 --> 17:57.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[17:57.550 --> 17:58.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, how you doing?
[17:58.250 --> 17:58.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see him.
[17:58.650 --> 17:58.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[17:59.030 --> 17:59.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty good.
[17:59.410 --> 18:01.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm getting my last vaccine on Friday.
[18:01.730 --> 18:04.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Your last, your second, you're not getting a whole bunch of them.
[18:04.530 --> 18:04.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[18:04.750 --> 18:05.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good, good.
[18:05.550 --> 18:06.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, no comment.
[18:06.790 --> 18:09.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, any, any side effects for you or, uh, for the first one?
[18:09.810 --> 18:14.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, no, kind of looking forward to seeing how hard it hits me because I hear the second one is hardest.
[18:14.870 --> 18:15.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[18:15.310 --> 18:19.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's kind of, kind of like, uh, you know, a challenge to say, okay, let's see what you got vaccine.
[18:19.690 --> 18:25.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the important thing is that you are becoming immune to coronavirus.
[18:25.430 --> 18:32.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the more people who do that, uh, the more normal we can get back to, uh, if that's a good sentence.
[18:32.230 --> 18:43.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I, I just heard news from the CDC a couple of days ago that if, um, if you're vaccinated, um, it's safe for somebody who is not vaccinated to be around you.
[18:43.850 --> 18:49.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: It is without any kind of, um, of, uh, masks, without any kind of social distancing.
[18:49.250 --> 18:56.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, that doesn't mean you can, you can mill around with a whole lot of people because those unvaccinated people then are milling around with each other.
[18:57.030 --> 18:57.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's not safe.
[18:58.170 --> 19:04.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if you're vaccinated two weeks after your second shot, that's when it's, uh, it's, it's fully, uh, kicked in.
[19:04.710 --> 19:06.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, then it's actually safe.
[19:06.630 --> 19:10.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: And there are people that I have not seen in a year, over a year that I really would like to see.
[19:11.570 --> 19:17.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, uh, some vaccinated now, some not, but, uh, life will start to get back to normal.
[19:18.010 --> 19:21.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here's a letter from, um, uh, Charlie in New Mexico.
[19:21.430 --> 19:23.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, dear manual crew, greetings from Albuquerque.
[19:23.650 --> 19:26.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wanted to share my COVID vaccine experience with you.
[19:26.110 --> 19:35.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: The New Mexico department of health created a portal where anyone who wants the vaccine can register for it at cvvaccine.nmhealth.org.
[19:36.310 --> 19:42.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: I registered for the vaccine in early January and I got my first shot of the Pfizer vaccine on March 3rd.
[19:42.250 --> 19:49.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds like New Mexico is one of the few, maybe only states where everything is being done at the state level and things seem to be going smoothly with it.
[19:49.910 --> 19:54.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Counties are beginning to reopen in earnest now, but hopefully that's not happening too quickly.
[19:55.030 --> 20:00.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, Charlie, unfortunately, in some places, Florida, Texas, it is happening too quickly.
[20:00.230 --> 20:11.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, what that means is that more people will get sick, more variants will start to gain strength, and it's even possible that the vaccine itself could be thwarted.
[20:11.750 --> 20:24.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, if you have a lot more variants out there because more people are getting sick, the chance of one of those variants being of the kind that can get past the, uh, the vaccine itself, it becomes stronger and stronger.
[20:24.810 --> 20:28.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, I, I know there are lots of political scandals these days.
[20:28.910 --> 20:36.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's hard to pick one, but if you're going to pick something, go for the people that are directly killing their citizens.
[20:36.230 --> 20:43.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the governors of Texas and Florida, I think have blood on their hands for pretending this is over when it's not.
[20:45.470 --> 20:46.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[20:46.310 --> 20:51.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, any other thoughts on, uh, on, on coronavirus or should we move on to more hackers?
[20:51.950 --> 20:58.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's the other, there's the other bit of news that came out this week where, um, as of yesterday, I believe, uh, if you're 50 or over in New York, you're eligible.
[20:59.110 --> 20:59.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's it.
[20:59.630 --> 21:09.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: You don't have to worry about other comorbidities or anything, but, uh, um, age 50 and older in the state of New York, you're, you're eligible to go, uh, find an appointment and get vaccinated.
[21:09.030 --> 21:09.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: So.
[21:10.470 --> 21:11.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: And again, that's good news.
[21:12.050 --> 21:13.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's different in every state.
[21:13.190 --> 21:13.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's New York.
[21:13.970 --> 21:15.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I was looking at Washington.
[21:15.710 --> 21:16.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Washington is still 65.
[21:17.410 --> 21:22.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, but there are also comorbidities, you know, some states you can actually get a vaccine.
[21:22.650 --> 21:23.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you smoke, that's it.
[21:24.050 --> 21:29.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just if you, if you're a smoker, it seems unfair, maybe it is, but that's the, that's the rule.
[21:29.930 --> 21:32.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, if, if that's the rule, then take advantage of it.
[21:33.030 --> 21:35.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: There, there also seem to be some anecdotal stories.
[21:35.490 --> 21:48.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I, I don't have hard evidence for this, but there's a lot of stories that seem to be going around of, um, pharmacies that are dispensing the virus at the end of the day, having leftover vaccine, they're dispensing the vaccine, not they're dispensing the vaccine,
[21:48.310 --> 21:48.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: not the virus.
[21:49.290 --> 21:51.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: As people run away from pharmacies.
[21:51.410 --> 21:51.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[21:52.090 --> 21:52.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good heavens.
[21:52.790 --> 21:52.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sorry.
[21:52.930 --> 21:53.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: CVS stock goes down.
[21:54.130 --> 21:54.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[21:54.690 --> 22:01.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, the, if you're, if you're at a vaccine that's dispensing, if you're at a pharmacy that's dispensing the vaccine, good heavens, I can speak.
[22:01.450 --> 22:07.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, at the end of the day, they have leftovers that, uh, have not been administered and that will just get thrown in the trash.
[22:07.170 --> 22:10.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: So some people are hearing of places where they're just put up an announcement.
[22:10.610 --> 22:11.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, anyone want this?
[22:11.510 --> 22:12.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Who's in the store?
[22:12.210 --> 22:12.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can come get it.
[22:13.050 --> 22:13.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[22:13.210 --> 22:24.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is a service that you can sign up for at the Javits Center, um, where you sign up by seven, they'll call you at six in the evening and you basically come on a standby line, but you can get a shot.
[22:24.490 --> 22:24.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[22:24.730 --> 22:26.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: There, there are many, many ways to do this.
[22:26.610 --> 22:30.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: New York state is, is the one that I specialize in helping people with, but there's also New York city.
[22:30.690 --> 22:32.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's independent pharmacies.
[22:32.570 --> 22:34.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, there, there are many, many different kinds.
[22:34.250 --> 22:35.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And of course, every state is, is different.
[22:36.310 --> 22:45.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, it's gonna be an interesting year because we're all going through this and, um, I think we'll, uh, we'll emerge in a much better, um, frame of mind.
[22:46.210 --> 22:47.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, okay.
[22:47.190 --> 22:52.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh, moving away from this, uh, and, and onto other, uh, important, um, announcements.
[22:53.170 --> 22:58.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: As you know, last year, we weren't able to have the, uh, Hackers on Planet Earth conference, uh, in person.
[22:59.050 --> 23:03.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Instead, what we wound up doing was having a very nice, um, uh, digital conference.
[23:03.530 --> 23:05.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hope 2020, um, nine day event.
[23:05.930 --> 23:19.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we said at the time that, um, to make up for not having, uh, hope 2020 in, in person, like we were, uh, we were planning, uh, we were going to have a conference this year in 2021 in person conference.
[23:19.930 --> 23:22.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've announced the conference is called extra hope.
[23:23.230 --> 23:29.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, it's, um, it's scheduled for, for this August in person, St. John's university.
[23:30.250 --> 23:33.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, August 13th through 15th actually is, is the date.
[23:35.150 --> 23:37.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, we don't know if it's going to happen.
[23:37.470 --> 23:40.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: We, uh, it's, it's, it's currently being planned as an in person event.
[23:40.810 --> 23:50.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, and again, it'll be the, um, a conference that, uh, um, was supposed to happen last year, but I have to, I have to be honest.
[23:51.150 --> 24:00.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have to be honest that, um, um, it doesn't look promising based on how other states, how other countries are doing at the moment.
[24:00.770 --> 24:11.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and the fact that, uh, getting back to normal traveling does not seem to be something that, um, that will be, um, in place by that time.
[24:11.430 --> 24:14.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: If, you know, if it does happen, I think we'll know pretty soon.
[24:14.750 --> 24:24.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll know, I say within a month, maybe six weeks for now, tentatively extra hope, August 13th or 15th, uh, St. John's university.
[24:24.550 --> 24:28.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I guess if we had to have a slogan, it would be don't count on it.
[24:28.910 --> 24:34.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: But that's unfortunately what we have to say, because, you know, we, we, we had to book a date.
[24:35.230 --> 24:41.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, we, we are moving forward with plans, but if, if this does not happen, then 2022 for sure.
[24:41.090 --> 24:45.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it'll be bigger and better keep checking hope.net.
[24:45.650 --> 24:47.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll have more information as that comes in.
[24:48.050 --> 24:52.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: The worst case is you're really, really planning ahead for 2022.
[24:53.370 --> 24:55.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that's the way we're looking at it.
[24:55.430 --> 25:12.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: We really, um, have so much to look forward to, but this is us being really versatile and, and, um, able to pivot when things change or at this, in, in this case, don't change, uh, what we've been doing.
[25:12.230 --> 25:14.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: It would just be, um, a different thing.
[25:14.430 --> 25:25.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: But we've had a lot of success in, in, uh, gearing up and, and we'll definitely give, uh, an announcer, a heads up to everyone, um, well ahead of time as soon as we know more.
[25:25.770 --> 25:29.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, other news, um, I got kicked off of, uh, Twitter.
[25:29.590 --> 25:30.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Did I tell you guys this?
[25:30.750 --> 25:32.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I got kicked off of Twitter.
[25:32.530 --> 25:37.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: We all knew it was going to happen at some point, but, uh, I guess we just didn't know exactly when.
[25:37.370 --> 25:39.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I, I tend to say what's on my mind.
[25:40.450 --> 25:42.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, I, I, I said it this time.
[25:42.990 --> 25:44.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said what was on my mind and it got me in trouble.
[25:45.810 --> 25:46.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you know what I said?
[25:47.630 --> 25:48.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can I say it on the air?
[25:49.370 --> 25:50.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it is allowed.
[25:50.490 --> 25:50.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is it allowed?
[25:51.750 --> 25:52.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said Memphis.
[25:53.690 --> 25:55.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said Memphis.
[25:56.850 --> 25:58.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, uh, a listener wrote to us.
[25:58.870 --> 26:00.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I think a few listeners wrote to us.
[26:00.370 --> 26:06.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, this, uh, lobsterminator, uh, thank you for, for your letter.
[26:06.710 --> 26:09.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: If, if your tweet contains the word Memphis, your account will be locked.
[26:10.170 --> 26:10.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[26:10.370 --> 26:11.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: It sounded unbelievable.
[26:11.530 --> 26:14.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I and several people I know tested and got locked out.
[26:14.370 --> 26:15.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now I'm waiting for my appeal to be processed.
[26:16.310 --> 26:22.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, people are having fun by changing their display name to Memphis and contacting customer support, uh, accounts of companies, et cetera.
[26:22.690 --> 26:29.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I see what, and then they reply to you and say Memphis, and then they get, uh, uh, banned.
[26:29.790 --> 26:34.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, yeah, but apparently what happened, the, the blue check mark users are immune.
[26:34.650 --> 26:39.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: So they didn't, it's just another reason why it's unfair the way Twitter operates.
[26:39.890 --> 26:46.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: I can never get, um, uh, verified, uh, anything affiliated with us can't get verified for whatever reason.
[26:46.490 --> 26:47.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: And so we were a victim to this.
[26:48.070 --> 26:48.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[26:48.230 --> 26:51.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Saying Memphis and right away, my account was, was locked.
[26:51.130 --> 26:53.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I had to file one of these appeals.
[26:53.590 --> 26:58.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, and, and they were basically saying that, um, if you remove the tweet, then your account can come back.
[26:58.750 --> 27:04.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if you don't remove the tweet and I had no intention of ever removing the tweet, um, it, um, uh, it could be very bad for you.
[27:05.330 --> 27:11.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, uh, they figured out their problem after a number of hours and just, uh, without comment, restored everybody's account.
[27:11.590 --> 27:12.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would like a comment.
[27:12.430 --> 27:13.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would like some kind of explanation.
[27:13.510 --> 27:14.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just the one God's name.
[27:14.570 --> 27:18.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: These people are doing, um, just saying the word Memphis.
[27:18.690 --> 27:20.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, it's bad programming.
[27:20.730 --> 27:21.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, it's bad policy.
[27:22.430 --> 27:25.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I think it affected, uh, millions of people.
[27:25.510 --> 27:31.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we certainly at 2,600 since our 2,600 Twitter account was not affected.
[27:31.610 --> 27:35.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, we were talking about this and a lot of people were replying.
[27:35.830 --> 27:47.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it was, if you look at the, um, the, the, um, the thread, you see that every other comment was deleted by Twitter because it violated their policy of not saying Memphis.
[27:49.450 --> 27:51.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Has anyone been through anything like this?
[27:51.710 --> 27:53.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was pretty surreal.
[27:55.550 --> 28:04.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: I hadn't been through it myself, but I, I said Memphis, but I, I obscured the word, you know, like you do with a swear, um, asking Twitter support, you know, which Memphis is it that we can't talk about?
[28:04.590 --> 28:07.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is it the one in Egypt, the one in, the one in Tennessee, the one upstate?
[28:07.550 --> 28:13.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, there, there are so many that it could have, you know, I don't know which Memphis, uh, got up Twitter's nose that day.
[28:14.030 --> 28:18.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it was, it was anything in, um, um, regular letters that spelled.
[28:18.610 --> 28:21.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some people use Cyrillic and they were able to get away with it that way.
[28:21.350 --> 28:30.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, it's good training, you know, for when the hammer comes down and, and free speech is completely, uh, um, made illegal ways that you can get the message out anyway.
[28:30.830 --> 28:34.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: So there were all kinds of people talking about Memphis without actually saying Memphis.
[28:34.630 --> 28:39.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't seem like an indicator that they are kind of playing with these sorts of filters a bit more.
[28:39.330 --> 28:53.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I know the climate, uh, along with a lot of the talk in the, um, uh, government and elsewhere about section two 30 and all of that, like this kind of an indicator that it's like, uh, yeah, this may have been half of something else they wanted to filter.
[28:53.290 --> 29:06.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it just kind of slipped, uh, having, uh, any kind of review and, and disrupted a whole lot of stuff, which points to, uh, kind of what we're facing as far as who and how those, uh, types of decisions are made and when.
[29:06.710 --> 29:11.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: I had one other, uh, run in with corporate America, uh, over the past couple of weeks.
[29:11.390 --> 29:14.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I turned out my, um, I have an American express gold card.
[29:14.310 --> 29:16.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've had it since I think 1988 or thereabouts.
[29:16.890 --> 29:23.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I discovered that, uh, despite all of the, uh, hoopla about how you don't get charged international transaction fees.
[29:24.130 --> 29:27.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you have a gold card, you do because there it was on my bill.
[29:28.150 --> 29:31.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I, I called them and say, Hey, uh, what gives, I have this card.
[29:31.830 --> 29:32.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: It costs me.
[29:33.010 --> 29:34.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have to pay an annual membership fee.
[29:34.970 --> 29:40.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the only reason I have this card is because I don't get charged international transaction fees.
[29:40.730 --> 29:44.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and, and the person on the other end of the phone was as confused as I was.
[29:44.390 --> 29:47.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: It turns out there's different kinds of American express gold cards.
[29:47.910 --> 29:50.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I have the kind that now charges you.
[29:50.890 --> 29:52.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: They didn't used to charge, but now they charge you.
[29:52.530 --> 29:56.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, so I was asking, well, what, what is the advantage of me keeping this card?
[29:56.990 --> 30:07.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the representative said, you know, there might not be one that might not be an advantage because, uh, you know, other accounts don't have an annual fee and they have the exact same type of benefits that this one has.
[30:07.470 --> 30:12.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: So other than the prestige of having this stupid gold card to show people, is it really worth the money?
[30:12.890 --> 30:13.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I said, you know what?
[30:13.810 --> 30:14.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to think about this.
[30:14.850 --> 30:27.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, less than a week later, I got a letter in the mail from American express, uh, thanking me, uh, for, um, my request to, to, uh, update my address, which I had never made that kind of a request.
[30:27.630 --> 30:38.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, then they said, we noticed that we don't have, and I'm not gonna get into what they're asking for, but they're asking for personal information, additional personal information that they are now required to have.
[30:38.290 --> 30:45.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if I don't give them this required personal information by, I think yesterday was the deadline, uh, I won't be able to use my card anymore.
[30:45.490 --> 30:53.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I want to thank American express for making the decision for me that this card is not worth it and I'm not going to hold onto it.
[30:53.670 --> 30:54.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: But just, it's weird.
[30:54.930 --> 31:02.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you call to ask about something, it's like you get punished and you have to, uh, give them more information, not going to give it to them.
[31:02.470 --> 31:04.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's no reason they need to have this information.
[31:04.790 --> 31:13.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, I can, I can do just fine without, I think too many people just answer whatever questions they are asked by companies.
[31:13.630 --> 31:14.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't have to do this.
[31:15.190 --> 31:17.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can certainly get by, uh, without their services.
[31:18.350 --> 31:20.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: They can't get by without customers though.
[31:21.950 --> 31:22.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[31:22.730 --> 31:27.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, we are welcoming as a special guest with us, uh, right now.
[31:28.150 --> 31:35.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, there is this new service that you might've heard of called zoom escaper.
[31:35.450 --> 31:39.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's basically, it's designed to help you escape zoom meetings.
[31:39.730 --> 31:41.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've all wanted to do this.
[31:41.830 --> 31:45.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and might be some people right now that want to do this.
[31:45.330 --> 31:48.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, video conferencing scenarios of all sorts.
[31:48.990 --> 31:52.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: It allows you to self-sabotage your audio stream.
[31:52.830 --> 32:02.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is their words, self-sabotage your audio stream, making your presence unbearable to others as if your, your, your words themselves aren't enough.
[32:02.170 --> 32:06.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, developer, uh, Sam Levigny, uh, is joining us right now.
[32:06.630 --> 32:07.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sam, can you hear us?
[32:08.650 --> 32:09.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, hi.
[32:09.330 --> 32:09.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[32:09.530 --> 32:09.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks.
[32:09.910 --> 32:11.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, thanks for having me on.
[32:11.230 --> 32:13.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: What, what an amazing service.
[32:13.190 --> 32:14.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where did you get the idea for this?
[32:15.250 --> 32:15.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[32:15.830 --> 32:28.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I guess like I've been sort of working on a, a series of projects for the last, about five years or so that are about digital sabotage in one way or another.
[32:29.110 --> 32:32.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, the first thing I made, which kind of, it doesn't really work anymore.
[32:33.090 --> 32:33.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sort of works.
[32:33.750 --> 32:35.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's called, uh, slow, hot computer.
[32:36.590 --> 32:38.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it just is a website.
[32:38.050 --> 32:39.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a website you go to.
[32:39.270 --> 32:40.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's slow, hot computer.com.
[32:40.890 --> 32:56.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it just makes your computer run like slow and hot, you know, so that it makes it, you know, kind of the idea of being the computer becomes, uh, almost unusable, unusable, but not quite as a way of limiting your own, uh, uh, productivity.
[32:56.510 --> 32:56.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[32:57.170 --> 32:58.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: So like a governor on a cryptocurrency.
[32:59.270 --> 32:59.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[32:59.810 --> 33:07.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was actually made it before, like sort of the cryptocurrency miners were, uh, were web, were web based, at least as far as I know.
[33:07.870 --> 33:12.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's just like down, it was just like downloading, uh, an image over and over and over again.
[33:12.830 --> 33:15.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and I think just like adding some numbers or something.
[33:15.630 --> 33:21.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and it's actually kind of hard to get a website to like almost crash your computer, but not quite.
[33:21.890 --> 33:25.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a, it's a little tricky, you know, it's just like a little, takes like a little finesse.
[33:25.650 --> 33:31.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think they've changed sort of some sets, like, you know, the way like Chrome and Firefox work now is like a little bit different.
[33:31.330 --> 33:33.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it doesn't, it doesn't quite have the same effect.
[33:33.690 --> 33:38.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like your computer doesn't quite get as hot and as slow as it, as it used to.
[33:38.370 --> 33:40.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so anyway, that was one.
[33:40.550 --> 33:50.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then, and then I, you know, did another project, which is a little bit different, but in a, in a sort of inspired by a similar, uh, impulse, uh, called, uh, called the good life.
[33:51.070 --> 33:54.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that was a collaboration with, uh, Tiga brain.
[33:54.290 --> 33:57.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in the good life, you, uh, sign up.
[33:57.750 --> 33:59.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like a, it's an email service.
[33:59.410 --> 34:05.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: You sign up to receive, uh, every single email that exists in the Enron email archives.
[34:05.570 --> 34:11.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: So the Enron email archives are like this incredible, uh, really incredible resource.
[34:11.290 --> 34:17.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: This archive of like, uh, all of the emails that were sent between the top executives at, at the Enron corporation.
[34:17.550 --> 34:22.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and that were then like made public by the government, maybe for retaliatory purposes.
[34:22.090 --> 34:24.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not quite sure why, but they were made public.
[34:24.450 --> 34:35.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so in this project, you sign up and then you get every single email, uh, which is like 225,000 emails, uh, direct to your inbox over the course of like seven years.
[34:35.330 --> 34:35.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[34:35.930 --> 34:42.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, and it's actually this really nice way of like looking through that archive, which is this really interesting historical archive.
[34:42.250 --> 34:45.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: You kind of see this huge corporation crumble from the inside, you know?
[34:46.090 --> 34:53.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but also it makes it so that you're, you know, you're getting these emails be like, Hey, you got to come to this meeting, uh, you know, tomorrow.
[34:54.150 --> 34:55.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then you're like, Oh God, what meeting is this?
[34:55.990 --> 34:56.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[34:56.290 --> 34:56.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know?
[34:56.470 --> 34:58.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then it's like, Oh, it was from, you know, 2001.
[34:58.790 --> 35:00.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, did you get to be the same person?
[35:00.810 --> 35:03.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can you take on their identity so that you actually have to go to meetings?
[35:04.210 --> 35:04.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You just see them.
[35:05.110 --> 35:05.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You just see them all.
[35:06.090 --> 35:07.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you just get all, you just get all of them.
[35:07.850 --> 35:11.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you're not, you don't get a particular person's, uh, inbox.
[35:11.390 --> 35:13.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: It might be handy for Enron X employees.
[35:14.190 --> 35:17.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I might have lost track of some of this to, uh, you know, catch up a little bit.
[35:18.030 --> 35:18.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it could be.
[35:18.710 --> 35:22.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: It could be if they, if they want to re they want to relive that time.
[35:22.870 --> 35:24.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Remember that special time.
[35:24.710 --> 35:29.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not sure that that's, you know, uh, that's maybe it's, maybe it's not the fondest memories they have.
[35:29.790 --> 35:36.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but I mean, what's interesting about something like that is that it's kind of like an act of, of intentional obfuscation.
[35:36.350 --> 35:39.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it makes it harder to you, you know, for you to use your own email.
[35:39.730 --> 35:48.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: But of course it may also means that like a company like Google, If you have a Gmail account, it's kind of harder for them to use your email also, right?
[35:48.170 --> 35:51.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because you're sort of polluting your own data set.
[35:51.650 --> 35:52.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hear that.
[35:52.830 --> 35:59.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's something that I encourage people to do with their Gmail accounts because Gmail gets to know you way too well.
[35:59.350 --> 36:00.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's not a good thing for you.
[36:01.370 --> 36:02.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, Sam, is it possible?
[36:03.050 --> 36:04.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're on a Zoom call right now.
[36:04.490 --> 36:07.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: So let's say that you want to get out of the Zoom call.
[36:07.810 --> 36:10.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are you able to demonstrate some of what you've designed?
[36:10.930 --> 36:14.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I can turn on the old...
[36:15.770 --> 36:17.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, Sam, we seem to have lost Sam.
[36:17.630 --> 36:18.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can you hear me?
[36:18.990 --> 36:21.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you know, you blanked out there for a second.
[36:21.710 --> 36:22.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can you hear me now?
[36:23.270 --> 36:24.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now you're reverberating now.
[36:25.190 --> 36:25.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is it okay?
[36:25.670 --> 36:26.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Boy, this is annoying.
[36:26.710 --> 36:28.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: I kind of want to...
[36:28.050 --> 36:29.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: You might want to unmute.
[36:29.510 --> 36:30.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I want to end this call.
[36:32.530 --> 36:35.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sam, maybe you should take some time and...
[36:39.510 --> 36:40.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: A jackhammer?
[36:40.450 --> 36:40.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Really?
[36:41.690 --> 36:42.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, you seem really busy.
[36:43.230 --> 36:45.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: I heard a dog barking, but that might have been Alex's dog.
[36:46.250 --> 36:49.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, that's the Zoom Escaper, right?
[36:50.130 --> 36:52.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: That was like the grand finale of the fireworks show there.
[36:55.210 --> 36:56.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's basically like a soundboard, you know?
[36:56.910 --> 36:59.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you go to zoomescaper.com.
[37:00.110 --> 37:04.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to, unfortunately, install one other piece of software, which is like a virtual audio cable.
[37:04.550 --> 37:13.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And once that's installed, you can kind of set, you know, set the output of the Zoom Escaper to go to that virtual microphone.
[37:13.270 --> 37:20.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then you set your microphone in Zoom or Google Meetings or Microsoft Teams or whatever to also be that virtual mic.
[37:20.310 --> 37:36.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then, you know, you can add echo to your voice or simulate a bad connection or make it seem like there is a man crying in your apartment or upload your own audio effects as well.
[37:36.190 --> 37:39.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you can upload your own dog's barking because obviously they'll know that's not your dog.
[37:39.970 --> 37:44.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or maybe somebody in your household who's yelling at you, hey, that's Stanley.
[37:45.030 --> 37:45.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's upset.
[37:45.830 --> 37:46.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe you should go.
[37:47.390 --> 37:52.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess, you know, there's no limit to what you can screw up a Zoom call with.
[37:53.410 --> 37:53.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[37:54.070 --> 37:58.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I mean, I had built like this project sort of emerged.
[37:58.470 --> 38:03.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had built like another project about Zoom called the Zoom Deleter.
[38:04.210 --> 38:08.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the Zoom Deleter is just like a little cross-platform.
[38:08.710 --> 38:09.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's not...
[38:09.690 --> 38:13.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, I didn't make it for Linux also, but I made it for Mac and Windows.
[38:13.350 --> 38:15.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, it just like sits in your...
[38:15.530 --> 38:18.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sits in your system tray, your menu bar.
[38:19.270 --> 38:22.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it just looks for the presence of Zoom on your computer.
[38:22.530 --> 38:26.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if it finds Zoom, it just like immediately deletes it, you know.
[38:26.150 --> 38:29.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I made the Zoom Deleter.
[38:29.390 --> 38:32.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then like, you know, I was quite excited about it.
[38:33.210 --> 38:35.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had it on my computer.
[38:35.310 --> 38:37.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was trying to get other people to put it on their computers.
[38:37.630 --> 38:42.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then, you know, I think I ended up getting like 107 downloads.
[38:43.170 --> 38:48.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was not a lot of people willing to like adopt, you know, this application.
[38:49.250 --> 38:55.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so I was like, oh, I got to make something for people that aren't quite ready for the Zoom Deleter.
[38:56.890 --> 38:58.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is definitely...
[38:58.210 --> 39:01.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: This might get people to use Zoom more because it's so much fun.
[39:01.670 --> 39:04.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are you able to tell how popular it's gotten?
[39:05.850 --> 39:08.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's been like really out of control, actually.
[39:08.250 --> 39:10.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I mean, I don't have any...
[39:11.450 --> 39:15.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have any tracking stats on the website itself.
[39:15.670 --> 39:17.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just didn't put like a...
[39:17.370 --> 39:20.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I'm just not tracking usage there.
[39:20.390 --> 39:23.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I do have like a video tutorial.
[39:24.450 --> 39:27.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's just the tutorial of like how to get it set up.
[39:27.330 --> 39:29.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: It has like, you know, 200,000 views.
[39:29.370 --> 39:32.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it made all these...
[39:32.210 --> 39:33.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it was like on the news a bunch.
[39:33.730 --> 39:34.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it was on...
[39:34.910 --> 39:37.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think they talked about it on like the Daily Show or something.
[39:37.410 --> 39:42.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think, unfortunately, the cat is like a bit out of the bag, you know, with the Zoom Escaper.
[39:43.110 --> 40:02.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: So my thoughts is that, you know, at this point, people will hopefully just sort of take up the spirit of the Zoom Escaper and the spirit of sabotage, digital sabotage, and maybe digital self-sabotage, and find new and exciting ways to do it on their own.
[40:02.430 --> 40:04.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Speaking of cats, what do you have in the cat department?
[40:05.630 --> 40:09.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I didn't add any cats to the thing.
[40:09.290 --> 40:14.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that could be... maybe that's version two, is cats fighting or mewing in the background.
[40:15.170 --> 40:16.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or a lot of, you know...
[40:16.710 --> 40:19.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you have video effects too, right?
[40:19.570 --> 40:23.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: So a cat walking directly in front of the camera, perhaps, and refusing to move.
[40:23.790 --> 40:24.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[40:25.030 --> 40:26.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: We can help you with all kinds of ideas.
[40:26.890 --> 40:27.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, you have something.
[40:28.570 --> 40:31.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, Sam, thank you so much for being on Off The Hook tonight.
[40:31.550 --> 40:34.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I just love the idea of this.
[40:34.490 --> 40:38.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: I love the sabotage component of all of this.
[40:38.950 --> 40:51.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think one of the reasons why you're seeing this resonate with so many people around the world is because Zoom is something over the last year has just really taken over our daily lives.
[40:51.670 --> 40:53.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's really become an encroachment in our lives.
[40:53.710 --> 40:59.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we are expected now to jump on Zooms at the drop of a hat, right?
[40:59.290 --> 41:00.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: At the slightest provocation.
[41:00.270 --> 41:10.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think to the exclusion of ordinary alternative forms of communication to which we had become accustomed for decades before that.
[41:10.490 --> 41:19.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we just think about how annoying it is to, quote-unquote, hop on a Zoom or stand up a Zoom for two people to talk nowadays.
[41:19.790 --> 41:21.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: That is completely common.
[41:21.370 --> 41:24.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: People refuse to use the telephone anymore.
[41:24.210 --> 41:30.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: If it's just a two-way communication, you can use a full duplex communication method, like goddamn telephone.
[41:31.150 --> 41:35.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: But instead, people have to stand up a Zoom call.
[41:35.530 --> 41:40.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then you're stuck staring at your camera, looking awkward, trying to pretend that you're not multitasking.
[41:40.430 --> 41:43.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: While you are multitasking, you want to get off the call.
[41:43.090 --> 41:44.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: You don't want people to see you.
[41:44.030 --> 41:47.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's a strange etiquette that goes around this about turning your camera on.
[41:48.110 --> 41:49.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, who's the dominant person?
[41:50.290 --> 41:52.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: If they don't have their camera on, should you put your camera on?
[41:52.590 --> 41:57.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's a very strange cultural phenomenon that we have that has really encroached in our lives.
[41:57.410 --> 42:15.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I see this as being a great way for people to fight back, in a sense, to push back a little bit against Zoom and against this thing, this piece of technology that has really just run rampant over our lives.
[42:15.750 --> 42:29.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, it reminds me, too, and I think that there's a philosophical component to what you're doing here, because as much as Zoom has taken up a lot of our free time or time that we might have spent, let's say, on the telephone, going around, talking to somebody,
[42:29.470 --> 42:33.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: watering the plants, vacuuming, whatever you wanted to do while you were on the phone.
[42:33.170 --> 42:36.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now you're stuck Zooming, and you can do nothing else.
[42:36.410 --> 42:41.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, we also, we're human beings, and we shouldn't have leisure time.
[42:41.710 --> 42:50.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so I love the fact that you called this the Zoom escaper, because you're trying to escape the Zoom so you can go back to being a normal human being.
[42:50.630 --> 42:52.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I remember that.
[42:52.070 --> 42:54.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: I want to leave you with a quote here, too.
[42:54.690 --> 42:55.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: At the end of this monologue.
[42:55.830 --> 43:01.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: So this is from one of my favorite philosophy professors that I ever had.
[43:01.870 --> 43:04.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he's been done now for about 17 years.
[43:04.630 --> 43:08.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's the Reverend Dr. Cyril Barrett, who is a fellow at Campion Hall.
[43:08.790 --> 43:10.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he wrote about the philosophy of leisure.
[43:11.170 --> 43:17.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And according to Cyril, he said, Leisure, according to the ancients, is the proper state of man.
[43:17.790 --> 43:23.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Work is what is necessary for survival and a necessary condition for leisure.
[43:23.090 --> 43:23.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Leisure.
[43:23.250 --> 43:25.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: It is not an end in itself.
[43:25.790 --> 43:26.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Leisure is.
[43:26.750 --> 43:29.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: It is the end, the goal of human life.
[43:30.250 --> 43:34.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I will end there and say thank you for letting us take back a little bit of that leisure time.
[43:35.450 --> 43:36.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, my pleasure.
[43:37.810 --> 43:42.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's been really fun to see people take it up.
[43:42.750 --> 43:45.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: And like I said, I just hope that...
[43:45.370 --> 43:47.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you know, these things change.
[43:47.790 --> 43:49.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like Zoom is here this year for obvious reasons.
[43:49.970 --> 43:56.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure, you know, in a year or two, it'll be something else that sort of dominates all of our lives and makes our lives miserable.
[43:56.530 --> 43:57.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right?
[43:57.310 --> 44:05.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's really important that we develop an imagination in ourselves and in others for finding ways to push back against these technologies, right?
[44:05.750 --> 44:08.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's more than just a technology.
[44:08.290 --> 44:12.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's an attitude that we've developed where we have to always be accountable, always be reachable.
[44:12.870 --> 44:23.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: I remember a few years ago, somebody came up with something that did something similar with cell phones, basically made a car honk or something that made it seem like it's impossible for you to talk on the phone right now.
[44:24.770 --> 44:29.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: These things become necessary because we're expected to always be on call.
[44:29.590 --> 44:31.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Zoom is just the latest example of that.
[44:33.830 --> 44:34.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely.
[44:35.130 --> 44:35.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[44:36.430 --> 44:36.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[44:36.750 --> 44:41.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Another thing, I mean, I think it's really interesting to think about here is like, what does it mean?
[44:41.030 --> 44:45.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I mean, we're talking about, like, you know, always being required to be on these Zoom calls.
[44:45.930 --> 44:56.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, what does it mean that, like, the same thing that is your work machine, right, that is, like, this sort of means of production, right, is also the thing that's mediating all of your social interactions, right?
[44:56.630 --> 45:06.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: How do you have pushback against a device that, like, is also your, you know, your window to being a social person in the world, right?
[45:06.230 --> 45:11.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's kind of why I'm exploring, I guess, this idea of self-sabotage.
[45:11.550 --> 45:18.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because in a way, you do have to sort of self-sabotage your own ability, not just to work, but also maybe to have social communications.
[45:20.330 --> 45:33.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I, you know, I find that concept and that I, quite fascinating in the question of how sabotage can play out in this interconnected context that we find ourselves, you know, something that's really, really worth exploring.
[45:33.810 --> 45:34.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead, Rob.
[45:35.670 --> 45:45.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I love that this is sort of forcing us to take another look at this thing that's become such an intrinsic part of our day-to-day interactions, both for work and for other purposes.
[45:45.930 --> 45:51.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was talking to someone recently about how, you know, it used to be an acceptable thing that you weren't online all the time.
[45:51.790 --> 45:57.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Internet, before the mobile era, the Internet was something that you would go home, sit down in front of your computer and go, okay, now I'm online for a while.
[45:58.710 --> 46:08.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, like, I frequently, throughout the course of my day, we'll go, sitting in front of my computer, we'll go, like, oh, this has been a lot, I need to get away from this.
[46:08.350 --> 46:10.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'll go across the room and I'll get on my phone.
[46:10.850 --> 46:11.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's my break.
[46:12.290 --> 46:14.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I just really appreciate it.
[46:14.550 --> 46:23.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: What was the, was there, like, a particular event or just a question that sparked creating this project for you?
[46:24.930 --> 46:36.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I don't know if there was a, I don't know if there was a particular event, like I said, it's sort of been like a longstanding, like a longstanding interest of mine, this question of like, digital sabotage or self-sabotage.
[46:36.470 --> 46:54.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I just felt maybe like, uh, maybe it was the right, the right moment in, in sort of like, in the year or something to, uh, to, to make it, to make it, you know, like, I wasn't really, um, I wasn't really expecting it to go as, I guess, like, as, as viral as it,
[46:54.770 --> 46:55.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: as it went.
[46:55.910 --> 47:04.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but, um, but yeah, like, I'm always trying to think about, you know, different ways to, um, uh, to like, yeah, to explore that basic concept.
[47:04.370 --> 47:10.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, now, um, you, you basically, uh, the, the story exploded over the past week.
[47:10.150 --> 47:14.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I imagine, uh, somebody wrote about it and then somebody else wrote about it and just kept spreading from there.
[47:14.650 --> 47:19.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, have, have you been inundated with, uh, suggestions or emails?
[47:19.190 --> 47:21.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, is Google trying to buy you anything like that?
[47:22.690 --> 47:29.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, no, I, I mean, I, I've been getting a lot of, yeah, I've been getting a lot of suggestions for different, for different things to, to add.
[47:29.590 --> 47:44.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I, I, you know, a lot of them are things that I actually like really don't want to add to it, like, you know, a screaming fight or, you know, there's just some things that I think that like, um, might be, maybe, uh, to the person who suggested the idea sound,
[47:44.170 --> 47:49.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: sound funny, but then maybe if I implemented them, they would actually be, uh, very upsetting, you know?
[47:49.690 --> 47:49.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[47:50.150 --> 47:58.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, maybe it would sound like, for example, like an abusive situation and that's not something that I'm trying, you know, that's not, that's not what I'm trying to do here.
[47:58.290 --> 48:02.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, I've had like a lot of, a lot of suggestions that, that I've decided not to do.
[48:02.930 --> 48:05.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I, I do think I've had some, you know, some pretty good ones.
[48:05.410 --> 48:11.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think some obvious ones to add, like, you know, cats fighting, I think it'd be a completely reasonable... No, go with the cats.
[48:11.890 --> 48:12.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Definitely.
[48:12.130 --> 48:14.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: ...addition to do, you know, for sure.
[48:14.550 --> 48:15.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or raccoons fighting.
[48:15.810 --> 48:28.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's also an awesome... Raccoons fighting, you know, like someone like really, really badly playing the drums or like doing like bad bass guitar would be, I think that'd be a pretty nice, a nice addition.
[48:28.450 --> 48:31.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or the ice cream man coming down the street and you have to go right now.
[48:31.910 --> 48:36.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the ice cream guy, your doorbell getting, you know, rung over and over again.
[48:36.430 --> 48:44.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think those are some of the ones I got and I think those were all, you know, those are all definitely going to make their way in at one point.
[48:44.550 --> 48:45.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Voltaire, you had something?
[48:45.770 --> 48:46.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[48:46.870 --> 48:54.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: I noticed advertised one thing I really like about Zoom Deleter is like that you can use it on your own volition and you get to choose when you can use it.
[48:55.290 --> 48:59.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's a lot of assumption that when people think about the Luddites that they were against all technology.
[49:00.170 --> 49:10.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: But in fact, they were only, they were about team control of technology and destroying a very specific type of technology that was harming their ability to make a living as laborers.
[49:10.670 --> 49:12.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, that makes us Luddites then.
[49:12.790 --> 49:13.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we're Luddites?
[49:13.750 --> 49:28.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm saying the Zoom is where it's like, it's like the correct as opposed to the incorrect understanding of Luddites because you only destroy the technology that you're, the spirituality that you're opposed to, but you can still keep you deploy, it seemed,
[49:29.250 --> 49:35.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: it's really, you only deploy it to get out of meetings you don't want to be in.
[49:36.110 --> 49:43.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: But then when you have like, let's say a virtual D&D meetup or something that, that you want to be in, you can, you're not destroying that.
[49:44.650 --> 49:46.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sam, have you had any negative feedback?
[49:48.410 --> 49:49.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, not really.
[49:49.770 --> 49:50.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not really.
[49:50.630 --> 50:04.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I've had some people, I mean, it's funny, like some people have, have told me or written to, you know, written on, on like whatever my video comments, like, oh, this is going to be so awful for, for teachers.
[50:06.110 --> 50:17.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then, you know, it might be my response is like, well, I actually, I mean, I actually am a teacher and it would just be like, you know, how great would it be if they were talking in class, you know, like talking in class with it, with, you know, sound effects or not.
[50:17.850 --> 50:17.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[50:18.050 --> 50:24.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: So like, I think, I think for the most part, it's been, it's been pretty, pretty positive.
[50:24.770 --> 50:32.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: And a few people who I think don't, don't, don't appreciate the sensibility of the project have been upset, upset by it.
[50:32.210 --> 50:33.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, not too many.
[50:33.230 --> 50:43.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have to go, but Sam, tell us how people can, can get, get the Zoom Escaper and also any information that you want to give out, anything that, that you need people to help with.
[50:44.590 --> 50:44.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[50:45.070 --> 50:45.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[50:45.530 --> 50:51.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so you can go to zoomescaper.com and, uh, that's where the website is.
[50:51.250 --> 50:53.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and it's also an open-source project.
[50:53.250 --> 51:07.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, if you, if you, uh, you know, are a coder and you want to, you want to help out, or even if you're not a coder and you want to help out, there's a good, you know, it's on GitHub and you can, you can get in there and, and, uh, make a pull request if you want,
[51:07.750 --> 51:08.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: or just send me a message.
[51:08.930 --> 51:14.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm always happy to, to, uh, to accept contributions and to work with other people.
[51:14.710 --> 51:18.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, zoomescaper.com and my website is, is LAV.io.
[51:18.570 --> 51:20.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: So thanks so much for having me.
[51:20.150 --> 51:22.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was, it was really, really nice to, to get to chat with all of you.
[51:22.750 --> 51:25.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sam Levigny, thank you so much for, for creating Zoom Escaper.
[51:25.970 --> 51:30.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can you leave us with one, one, uh, final, uh, Zoom call destroyer?
[51:31.210 --> 51:33.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I can, yeah, I can see if I can see if I can do something.
[51:34.130 --> 51:36.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think my favorite one is actually just the man.
[51:37.170 --> 51:39.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: The man is, man is I am the man.
[51:39.870 --> 51:40.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am the man.
[51:40.710 --> 51:42.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am the man with your apartment.
[51:42.610 --> 51:44.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: So no, this is, this is it.
[51:44.750 --> 51:45.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: So thanks so much, guys.
[51:46.430 --> 51:46.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.
[51:46.770 --> 51:47.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.
[51:47.250 --> 51:48.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll see you next time.
[51:49.070 --> 51:49.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[51:51.090 --> 51:51.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[51:52.030 --> 51:56.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, that, that, uh, that's one of the, um, most interesting, uh, conversations we've had.
[51:56.950 --> 51:57.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[51:57.410 --> 51:58.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: We are out of time.
[51:58.590 --> 52:01.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, please, uh, join us on overtime.
[52:01.410 --> 52:09.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can get there by following the link on the top of the 2600.com page or simply going to youtube.com/Channel2600.
[52:09.650 --> 52:15.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Our phone number there, 802-321-HACK, 802-321-4225.
[52:15.730 --> 52:19.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can call us up and talk to us and we'll be there for a little while.
[52:19.490 --> 52:25.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can write to us off the hook, oth@2600.com.
[52:25.470 --> 52:30.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Don't forget to support WBAI keeps, uh, shows like this and so many others coming your way.
[52:30.950 --> 52:35.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: The phone number 516-620-3602.
[52:35.710 --> 52:37.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Again, we won't be back next week, two weeks.
[52:37.950 --> 52:43.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll be back and, uh, we'll, uh, we'll see you then and we'll see you on overtime in a few minutes.
[52:43.630 --> 52:44.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good night.
[52:44.970 --> 52:45.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: So long.
[54:19.370 --> 54:21.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, good evening, everybody on overtime.
[54:22.610 --> 54:23.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Did we all make it?
[54:23.870 --> 54:24.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Everybody make it okay?
[54:24.770 --> 54:25.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rob, are you there?
[54:26.770 --> 54:28.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: We, we are present and accounted for.
[54:29.170 --> 54:29.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Awesome.
[54:29.490 --> 54:31.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, Alex has an empty chair.
[54:31.310 --> 54:31.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where's Alex?
[54:33.190 --> 54:34.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: He disappeared.
[54:34.450 --> 54:35.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Volta disappeared as well.
[54:35.670 --> 54:38.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, people, you can't just walk away for overtime.
[54:38.370 --> 54:42.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you're on the show, you have to, the contract says you have to be on overtime as well, so.
[54:43.150 --> 54:45.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're, we're going to have a meeting, actually.
[54:45.430 --> 54:46.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're going to have to have a meeting.
[54:46.110 --> 54:46.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: This could be the meeting.
[54:46.990 --> 54:50.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're going to have a discussion about this, uh, when we're not, uh, live.
[54:51.110 --> 54:55.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, we had a whole bunch of people waiting and as soon as we started talking, listeners dropped.
[54:55.650 --> 54:56.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: What, are you disappointed?
[54:56.890 --> 54:58.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's what you think was going to happen.
[54:59.570 --> 55:04.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, uh, again, our phone number, 802-321-HACK, 802-321-4225.
[55:05.750 --> 55:06.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[55:06.570 --> 55:07.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead, finish the number.
[55:08.290 --> 55:08.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: I did.
[55:09.110 --> 55:09.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, sorry.
[55:10.030 --> 55:11.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802-321-4225.
[55:12.210 --> 55:13.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that stands for HACK, right?
[55:13.430 --> 55:13.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[55:14.070 --> 55:21.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: I wanted to mention the, um, Enron email corpus came up with our guests during the show.
[55:21.330 --> 55:28.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I would have said, and I'm going to say it now, that we actually had a talk about that in 2018 at the Circle of Hope.
[55:29.310 --> 55:34.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the title of the talk is The Enron Email Corpus, Where the Bodies Are Buried.
[55:35.130 --> 55:38.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the name of the presenter is David NoEver.
[55:38.930 --> 55:43.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you can find that at, uh, Channel2600 on YouTube.
[55:43.850 --> 55:44.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[55:44.790 --> 55:47.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Along with all of our other, uh, Hope presentations.
[55:47.710 --> 55:51.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, Rob, I'm going to ask you, can you verify that we are in fact on YouTube and it's working?
[55:51.750 --> 55:53.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because sometimes it's not working and we don't know it.
[55:53.730 --> 55:57.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I didn't notice our listenership dropped in half in the first two minutes we started talking.
[55:57.710 --> 55:57.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[55:58.150 --> 56:01.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: So hopefully it's just a technical issue that will soon be, uh, be fixed.
[56:01.810 --> 56:03.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, uh, Oh, Alex, you're back.
[56:03.150 --> 56:03.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome back.
[56:03.650 --> 56:04.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Glad you could fit us in.
[56:05.050 --> 56:06.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, anytime.
[56:06.450 --> 56:06.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Only a pleasure.
[56:07.150 --> 56:15.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: That was a, that was a really interesting guest, Sam, uh, with, uh, I mean, I, the zoom meetings that are being screwed up now as a result of, of his efforts.
[56:15.830 --> 56:17.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's definitely a feather in your cap.
[56:18.490 --> 56:18.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[56:19.230 --> 56:20.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I think so.
[56:20.410 --> 56:28.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, look to, to an extent and you know, I'm, I think he's done a great thing and, and I expect great things to come from him as well.
[56:28.630 --> 56:33.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's got a very innovative way and of looking at things.
[56:33.250 --> 56:39.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think just a different perspective on where technology fits into our lives.
[56:39.870 --> 56:42.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, and that's a really interesting perspective to me.
[56:43.010 --> 56:45.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm, and I hope that our listeners found it to be so as well.
[56:45.570 --> 56:45.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[56:45.970 --> 56:53.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: It ties into our theme of basically, um, taking control of technology and shaping it to do what you want to do, not the other way around.
[56:53.190 --> 56:57.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: And too often we get pulled into that where we have to answer the call.
[56:57.810 --> 56:58.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have to be available.
[56:59.290 --> 57:00.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's nonsense.
[57:00.370 --> 57:01.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't have to do that.
[57:01.230 --> 57:02.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can do whatever you want.
[57:02.550 --> 57:05.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why, you know, I told, uh, American express to take a hike.
[57:05.630 --> 57:16.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I didn't actually tell them that, but I'm going to, if they keep asking me for, for information, they don't have a right to, uh, you don't have to be at a certain place at a certain time if that is not convenient for you.
[57:16.610 --> 57:18.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's, um, it's power.
[57:19.210 --> 57:20.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think people don't realize they have.
[57:21.250 --> 57:25.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: And unfortunately, uh, it's, it's hammered into our heads that you have to conform.
[57:26.030 --> 57:26.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't have to conform.
[57:27.390 --> 57:27.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[57:27.910 --> 57:28.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Don't be so cooperative.
[57:29.410 --> 57:30.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no.
[57:30.870 --> 57:32.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Stop being cooperative listeners.
[57:33.630 --> 57:34.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Reasonable.
[57:34.390 --> 57:34.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[57:34.890 --> 57:38.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, but please call us, uh, 802-321-4225.
[57:38.490 --> 57:46.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is why we have overtime is so that our listeners can call in since we're not in the studio and we can't actually take phone calls live on the air.
[57:46.550 --> 57:47.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: We can do it here.
[57:48.010 --> 57:54.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, it's, it's a, it's a great system that we have rigged up and, um, things, things seem to work for the most part.
[57:56.050 --> 58:10.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: I love the, I love the, the interview with Sam to learn more about the stuff that just really wasn't covered in the media, which were his, uh, earlier projects about slowing down your computer deliberately and intentionally slowing down your computer.
[58:10.490 --> 58:14.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's like, Hey, you know, when he described it in a way, I, I kind of get it.
[58:14.410 --> 58:19.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, you know, I understand slowing down your computer may actually give you back some of your life.
[58:20.070 --> 58:23.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so there's really one way of looking at it.
[58:23.650 --> 58:29.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that, um, and then the, the Enron corpus of emails that, that Kyle was just talking about as well.
[58:30.010 --> 58:40.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that's just such a fascinating body of emails and the idea that, you know, getting, getting another one or two of those sent to you every day is, is pretty unique as well.
[58:41.110 --> 58:47.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, and then bringing up the fact that those emails coming in can actually poison your own dataset.
[58:47.730 --> 59:05.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's something I think that we're going to be revisiting over the next couple of years for sure, which is how do we get out of this, this era where everything about us is known, where we can be psychologically prodded and tweaked because we've given away so much information about ourselves.
[59:05.170 --> 59:24.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the only way to do that, the only way to take back control of our dataset is perhaps to poison it in a sense to make it unusable for those who would seek to, to use data mining or, or big data techniques in order to psychologically exploit the data that we have given to the third parties for so many years.
[59:24.330 --> 59:45.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have laws in California, like the CCPA, you've got GDPR, all of this is designed to give consumers back power over their own data to, to re-enhance, I think our concept and our reasonable expectation of privacy or what can be done in our names with our data and with or without our consent.
[59:46.310 --> 59:50.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: But to a certain extent, these laws don't have a lot of bite.
[59:50.470 --> 59:51.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: They don't have a lot of teeth.
[59:51.550 --> 01:00:05.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you think about the CCPA, we can get information about where your data has gone, but the law does not require those who are in control of your data to actually describe the organization to which it was specifically provided.
[01:00:05.730 --> 01:00:07.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: They only have to describe categories.
[01:00:07.510 --> 01:00:12.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we are trying to take back control for the consumer over their data that, that falls short.
[01:00:13.030 --> 01:00:22.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I think the notion of poisoning your own dataset and making it unusable is going to come up time and time again, uh, over the next several years.
[01:00:24.250 --> 01:00:24.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[01:00:24.810 --> 01:00:40.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good standard operating just in general obfuscate re I remember a cafe that had a little sign, uh, used to frequent and it said, said, um, we reserve the right to, to confuse service.
[01:00:41.970 --> 01:00:43.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: I believe we have a phone call.
[01:00:43.890 --> 01:00:44.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[01:00:44.770 --> 01:00:45.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:00:46.910 --> 01:00:47.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[01:00:47.530 --> 01:00:47.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi.
[01:00:47.890 --> 01:00:55.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I wanted to say, uh, one thing in defense of, uh, online conferences instead of, uh, in-person conferences.
[01:00:55.750 --> 01:00:56.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:00:56.850 --> 01:01:08.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the, uh, the chat threads are amazing in terms of the, uh, information that people often post there, the links to, uh, articles and, uh, other resources and tools.
[01:01:08.690 --> 01:01:09.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:01:09.030 --> 01:01:19.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, that's one thing I regret about this online hope that, uh, took place back in 2020 was, uh, uh, the, uh, chat threads, as far as I know, were not archived.
[01:01:19.890 --> 01:01:38.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I think, um, as I said, there's a lot of great information there and, um, I'd encourage listeners to, um, feel free to maybe set up a website and post those chat threads so that people that weren't able to attend a meeting, you know, a specific talk or workshop,
[01:01:38.610 --> 01:01:39.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: they could get that information.
[01:01:39.950 --> 01:01:41.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think of that idea?
[01:01:42.670 --> 01:01:45.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm, I'm not entirely sure, uh, they weren't archived.
[01:01:45.710 --> 01:01:49.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I have to check on that, but, um, it, it seems sound to me.
[01:01:49.990 --> 01:01:52.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Were you an attendee and did you use our chat system?
[01:01:54.170 --> 01:01:55.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yeah, yeah.
[01:01:55.630 --> 01:02:01.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: But as I said, I mean, one person can only attend so many, uh, so many different events.
[01:02:01.550 --> 01:02:05.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously you had several things that were occurring simultaneously.
[01:02:06.450 --> 01:02:15.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I didn't, um, I didn't, I wasn't able to coordinate with other people, but like I said, uh, those chat threads were fantastic.
[01:02:15.870 --> 01:02:18.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, some of them were, were just amazing.
[01:02:18.850 --> 01:02:23.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the things that people were throwing in there, these resources I'd never heard of before.
[01:02:23.870 --> 01:02:34.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, uh, I think it would be great to, uh, continue to offer people maybe with the next hope, offer people the option of attending virtually if they wanted to.
[01:02:34.070 --> 01:02:46.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we've definitely learned a lot as far as, um, uh, virtual conferences versus, um, um, physical conferences and, and yeah, it's, it's never going to be the same again.
[01:02:46.470 --> 01:02:47.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Never gonna be entirely the same again.
[01:02:47.750 --> 01:02:54.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: We will have in-person conferences, but there will certainly be more of, uh, an online connection as well.
[01:02:54.550 --> 01:02:57.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: We just have to figure out what the best, uh, proportion is.
[01:02:57.110 --> 01:02:57.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:02:58.030 --> 01:03:02.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: We didn't want all of that stuff to compliment as best we can imagine.
[01:03:02.450 --> 01:03:10.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we look back even at what we were planning and some of the emphasis, I think in what we learned has changed.
[01:03:10.650 --> 01:03:16.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: We may, um, put more into that given the successes we had and your idea about the chats.
[01:03:16.710 --> 01:03:18.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm, I'm thinking, uh, we'll, we'll check on that.
[01:03:19.030 --> 01:03:24.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: I, I, I like the concept of a static copy of it for attendees.
[01:03:24.410 --> 01:03:31.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that if you are able to log back into the service as it's been archived, there is a possibility that those are there.
[01:03:32.050 --> 01:03:41.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, but it would not surprise me if it has been put into a state where it's, um, not quite the same as when, when it was being hosted for obvious reasons.
[01:03:41.970 --> 01:03:52.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, a lot of the infrastructure and stuff was temporary and, um, and, uh, borrowed and, and, and, and we got a lot of help in, in, uh, insofar as those donations.
[01:03:52.390 --> 01:03:57.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's the kind of thing with somebody, if they just took it on, they could be the person in charge of archiving it.
[01:03:57.490 --> 01:04:01.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: We, it probably was something that just way too many things for us to worry about and, and was overlooked.
[01:04:02.190 --> 01:04:03.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's entirely possible.
[01:04:03.490 --> 01:04:13.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: And in a related vein, I mean, we, for the first time did a lot more, uh, with transcribing and getting, um, uh, captions for most of the talks.
[01:04:13.750 --> 01:04:20.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that is still, I believe something that is ongoing or that we, we could put more resources into as well.
[01:04:20.390 --> 01:04:31.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that in and of itself is, is a form of log for people who maybe are unable to listen or, um, watch the talk in, uh, in a way that most of us do.
[01:04:31.550 --> 01:04:42.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we want to increase the accessibility and having sort of static files like that is a great idea, but it takes energy and, and, uh, as volunteers, we only have so much, uh, over the course of time.
[01:04:42.330 --> 01:04:43.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, you had a point?
[01:04:43.650 --> 01:04:53.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I'm still, I'm, I'm actually on the matrix chat right now, by the way, and there's still people on there chatting, you know, you can send a message and somebody will respond.
[01:04:54.190 --> 01:04:58.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, there are still people out there that are on, on the matrix chat and it's, it's pretty awesome.
[01:04:58.490 --> 01:05:06.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: The other thing I wanted to note for the color as well is that I'm actually seeing that I can scroll backwards and I'm using the desktop version of the client right now.
[01:05:06.310 --> 01:05:09.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I can scroll backwards and go back very, very, very far.
[01:05:09.370 --> 01:05:13.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: So for instance, I'm looking at, you know, random right now, the random room.
[01:05:13.810 --> 01:05:19.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it shows that there's 1.2 thousand messages that I haven't read, uh, in random.
[01:05:19.810 --> 01:05:22.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I can just keep scrolling back, scrolling back, scrolling back.
[01:05:22.590 --> 01:05:23.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: So absolutely.
[01:05:23.610 --> 01:05:31.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: If somebody wanted to archive this, in fact, I'd be surprised if somebody hasn't already, but it's, it's there, it's there.
[01:05:31.610 --> 01:05:33.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's, it's ripe for the taking.
[01:05:34.210 --> 01:05:34.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:05:34.950 --> 01:05:35.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's great.
[01:05:35.710 --> 01:05:37.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to put it out there.
[01:05:37.110 --> 01:05:38.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's great information.
[01:05:38.370 --> 01:05:39.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a completist.
[01:05:39.850 --> 01:05:56.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe in archiving as much information as possible, whether it's the written word, the spoken word, or the audio or the video, the more, unless, you know, respecting people's privacy, obviously, but if somebody is okay with it, I believe in archiving every second,
[01:05:57.150 --> 01:06:01.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: every word, every syllable, and every second of audio video and video.
[01:06:02.170 --> 01:06:03.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you guys keep up the great work.
[01:06:03.910 --> 01:06:04.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[01:06:04.330 --> 01:06:16.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I, and I think it's an important points that you made too, because, you know, there, there really was a completely different angle to this conference, uh, this, this past year, given those conversations that happened online.
[01:06:16.630 --> 01:06:22.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I think we learned a lot from that and I, and I'm sure that we'll have some component of this going forward.
[01:06:22.630 --> 01:06:24.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: So thank you so much for the call for your comments.
[01:06:24.730 --> 01:06:38.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just really would like to emphasize that the, uh, channel is the best place to, to look for, um, transcriptions of chats and stuff, because that is for attendees.
[01:06:39.650 --> 01:06:50.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: It would be nice to have a static log or someplace, but it's not something that we necessarily have designed to be posted publicly.
[01:06:50.430 --> 01:06:56.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I don't know if we can, we haven't thought about, how exactly we would archive that.
[01:06:56.490 --> 01:06:58.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it was never intended to be something public.
[01:06:58.390 --> 01:07:02.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I don't want to give anybody the impression that actually, it got more successful than we were planning on being.
[01:07:02.950 --> 01:07:09.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: People really wanted to stick around and it was for Q&A, and the fact that Alex was able to be in there right now and still talk to people at the conference.
[01:07:09.710 --> 01:07:10.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's incredible.
[01:07:10.510 --> 01:07:11.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is amazing.
[01:07:11.190 --> 01:07:12.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're, we're, we're thrilled by that.
[01:07:12.370 --> 01:07:14.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think matrix was a great choice too.
[01:07:14.530 --> 01:07:23.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, everyone, um, is, uh, basically trying to, um, um, suggest other commercial products, discord server and, and, and that kind of thing, which are great.
[01:07:23.410 --> 01:07:25.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I think matrix had something different.
[01:07:26.170 --> 01:07:30.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it really had its own unique flair and it's certainly something we can build upon in the future.
[01:07:31.150 --> 01:07:35.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, so we're excited to explore it a little bit more and see where it takes us.
[01:07:35.270 --> 01:07:35.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:07:35.830 --> 01:07:39.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Our front line is open 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5.
[01:07:39.410 --> 01:07:45.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you're an off the hook listener or somebody just wants to, uh, um, uh, share something with us or ask a question, please feel free.
[01:07:46.250 --> 01:07:50.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, you know, I have an update for, um, uh, a story that we, uh, alluded to last week.
[01:07:50.970 --> 01:07:55.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Remember we were talking about the, uh, um, the, um, surveillance cameras that were hacked.
[01:07:56.450 --> 01:08:08.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, well, Tilly Koppman is 21 year old hacker, uh, who has taken credit for intrusions at major U.S. companies like Nissan Intel, um, and, um, uh, California based security camera company last week.
[01:08:08.290 --> 01:08:17.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, that Koppman claimed, well, um, federal prosecutors in Western Washington have secured a grand jury indictment last week against the Swiss national.
[01:08:18.130 --> 01:08:28.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, they alleged that Koppman in concert with others online acquired stolen credentials and access protected systems to steal confidential records and code.
[01:08:28.370 --> 01:08:35.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: The stolen data was hosted on a private website that's been seized by the FBI as well as on telegram and other services.
[01:08:35.770 --> 01:08:37.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's according to charging papers.
[01:08:38.010 --> 01:08:47.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Prosecutors say notable targets include a security device company, a tactical equipment maker, an automobile manufacturer, and a financial investment firm.
[01:08:47.590 --> 01:08:59.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: A website run by the hackers is at one point said to have held data from over 100 companies, including Adobe, Toyota, Pepsi, Microsoft, AMD, Motorola, GE, appliances, Disney, Nintendo, and more.
[01:08:59.910 --> 01:09:10.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Cyber Intel news site, the record reports that Koppman relied on misconfiguration to gain access to protected data and link them to an FBI industry alert in October.
[01:09:11.190 --> 01:09:18.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Warning of hackers capitalizing on default password settings in corporate and government software.
[01:09:18.550 --> 01:09:25.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Honestly, folks, I don't see what they did that is worthy of this kind of a reaction.
[01:09:25.410 --> 01:09:39.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not like, um, from what I'm reading, uh, it's not like this was held hostage, uh, that, um, uh, this person acted as many criminals do and, and, and, uh, tried to use ransomware against these companies.
[01:09:40.390 --> 01:09:45.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: They were open, honest about it and, and humorous at the same time.
[01:09:46.110 --> 01:09:47.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: These things need to be known.
[01:09:47.550 --> 01:09:55.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: If there are security holes like this, they're still going to be there whether or not, uh, you, um, uh, make fools of the companies.
[01:09:56.010 --> 01:09:59.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, um, I think the way it was done, it was done right.
[01:09:59.430 --> 01:09:59.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[01:10:00.030 --> 01:10:06.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's just my feeling about how, uh, security holes should be, um, should be revealed.
[01:10:07.170 --> 01:10:17.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, you know, if, if, if something like this, where your private information is, um, is being left out in the open, you have the right to know about that.
[01:10:17.270 --> 01:10:18.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: The company is not going to tell you.
[01:10:19.210 --> 01:10:25.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: So somebody who figures out how to do it and can demonstrate it to the world, I think that is a service.
[01:10:27.130 --> 01:10:28.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, what about you?
[01:10:28.090 --> 01:10:28.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: What do you think?
[01:10:30.510 --> 01:10:34.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, look, I, I think you got to look at the indict specifically, right?
[01:10:34.490 --> 01:10:39.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I, I have, I have some very specific thoughts and views on this particular case as well.
[01:10:40.430 --> 01:10:48.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: But perhaps I shouldn't say too, too much, uh, because the, the first count in the indictment is conspiracy to commit computer fraud and abuse.
[01:10:48.810 --> 01:10:51.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: That'd be under the CFAA, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
[01:10:51.570 --> 01:10:55.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's essentially accessing a computer without authorization.
[01:10:55.090 --> 01:10:57.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so this is a conspiracy charge there.
[01:10:57.470 --> 01:11:05.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: The other two that seem particularly flimsy here, the, the other, uh, counts are wire fraud, right?
[01:11:05.310 --> 01:11:20.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which is some, uh, you know, there's conspiracy, the count two is conspiracy to commit wire fraud, uh, which is essentially, you know, using the wire system to willfully devise and execute and, or attempt to execute a scheme to defraud.
[01:11:20.070 --> 01:11:22.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a very easy charge to be hit with.
[01:11:22.650 --> 01:11:23.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, no, no doubt.
[01:11:23.690 --> 01:11:24.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: No doubt.
[01:11:24.210 --> 01:11:29.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then counts three through seven are in fact, wire fraud and the scheme to defraud, the manner and means.
[01:11:29.410 --> 01:11:32.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, some of this seems particularly flimsy.
[01:11:32.310 --> 01:11:34.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: It seems like it was put together very, very quickly.
[01:11:35.670 --> 01:11:53.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: And my understanding of what Tilly has had done in order to identify these vulnerabilities was to look at places like GitHub and other source code repositories for code that was unintentionally made public, that companies had put out there without the,
[01:11:54.390 --> 01:11:57.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: uh, without meaning to make it public.
[01:11:58.010 --> 01:12:04.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: And when you find source code for, that was unintendedly made public, you're going to find certain vulnerabilities.
[01:12:04.470 --> 01:12:15.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it was the exploitation of those vulnerabilities to make them public that, uh, has, uh, resulted in the computer fraud and abuse act charges here.
[01:12:16.190 --> 01:12:29.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, this reminded me quite a bit, if you think about, is it, it's one thing, I guess, to, to access something without authorization, but it's another thing to make public that which is already public.
[01:12:30.070 --> 01:12:30.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[01:12:30.650 --> 01:12:34.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think to a very large extent, that was the intention behind the actions here.
[01:12:35.010 --> 01:12:36.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Make public what is already public.
[01:12:37.310 --> 01:12:38.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's right.
[01:12:38.330 --> 01:12:38.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:12:38.730 --> 01:12:42.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: To make it more public, more public, widely known.
[01:12:42.570 --> 01:12:49.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: The fact that there are these exploitable vulnerabilities out there in public source code, in source code repositories like GitHub and elsewhere.
[01:12:50.030 --> 01:12:57.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you don't, Alex, if you don't demonstrate it, if you don't demonstrate it in a way people can understand, they're not going to, uh, to realize the gravity of the situation.
[01:12:57.870 --> 01:13:06.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, they're not going to say, Hey, uh, this, this security camera is capturing, uh, uh, people inside a hospital, patients inside a hospital.
[01:13:06.310 --> 01:13:15.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: We should know about that, that that kind of thing is, is wide open and can be accessed, uh, legally by all kinds of people, but should be accessed by them anyway.
[01:13:15.410 --> 01:13:21.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the fact that they have it so that anyone can access that, I don't think that should be protected.
[01:13:21.450 --> 01:13:29.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think that's something that you have to think of their feelings or their corporate, uh, uh, uh, value and, and, and, and be part of the conspiracy to keep quiet about it.
[01:13:29.970 --> 01:13:35.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think what they did here was, was the responsible thing, sharing it with the world, because I'll bet it gets fixed now.
[01:13:36.090 --> 01:13:37.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's certainly, it certainly will.
[01:13:38.170 --> 01:13:46.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the idea that this information and these vulnerabilities were already out there in the wild, I think could be legally significant.
[01:13:46.430 --> 01:13:57.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think this is going to be an incredibly, incredibly interesting case to watch because it, it reminds me a lot in, in certain respects of the night lightning case.
[01:13:57.290 --> 01:13:57.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you remember that?
[01:13:57.970 --> 01:13:58.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh boy, do I?
[01:13:59.090 --> 01:13:59.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: 1990.
[01:14:00.850 --> 01:14:00.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:14:01.130 --> 01:14:01.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: 1990.
[01:14:01.770 --> 01:14:07.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we're talking about, you know, 31 years ago and night lightning, whose real name I believe was, was Craig Neidorf, right?
[01:14:07.430 --> 01:14:11.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: He was one of the original publishers of Phrack, right?
[01:14:11.210 --> 01:14:20.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which is an electronic, it was a text file hacking magazine that existed way back in the, and I think the late eighties and the nineties, but way up until still exists, you know, the mid to late nineties, right?
[01:14:21.270 --> 01:14:23.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, it, it is, it was around for quite a while.
[01:14:23.690 --> 01:14:24.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's still around.
[01:14:24.690 --> 01:14:25.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex is still around.
[01:14:25.450 --> 01:14:27.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: It comes, it doesn't come out that often, but it does come out.
[01:14:27.510 --> 01:14:28.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I had no idea.
[01:14:28.710 --> 01:14:29.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's, that's news to me.
[01:14:30.070 --> 01:14:30.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's pretty awesome.
[01:14:30.750 --> 01:14:32.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've fallen off the subscription list.
[01:14:33.070 --> 01:14:49.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, but the, the issue with it, with the night lightning or the Craig Neidorf case was he was charged with essentially exfiltrating these incredibly expensive to develop in highly confidential bell system documents that related to the E911, system correctly.
[01:14:49.990 --> 01:15:03.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now those documents, it turns out, and it came out during trial that, that the bell system had claimed were in fact private and confidential were actually available for purchase to the public.
[01:15:03.190 --> 01:15:07.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: They were already out there in the public domain that I think you could buy for 11 or 12 dollars.
[01:15:08.310 --> 01:15:09.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: 14, I believe was the number, but yeah.
[01:15:10.430 --> 01:15:16.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: And as soon as that was revealed, they had to, they had to retreat and drop the case, but the damage had been done.
[01:15:16.310 --> 01:15:22.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Craig Neidorf's family was, was, uh, devastated with the expense of having to defend them and keep their, their, their son out of prison.
[01:15:22.790 --> 01:15:28.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a good example of how, uh, these, these corporations abuse the power that they have and lie.
[01:15:28.810 --> 01:15:30.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: They just absolutely lie.
[01:15:30.350 --> 01:15:42.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's the same thing with the Kevin Mitnick case where the source code for, for cellular, uh, phone, uh, uh, uh, code is, was basically, uh, seen as, as worth millions and millions of dollars.
[01:15:42.490 --> 01:15:44.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, it was nothing like that.
[01:15:44.370 --> 01:15:45.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was given away for free.
[01:15:45.290 --> 01:15:46.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wasn't it Motorola source code?
[01:15:46.970 --> 01:15:47.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: That was, that was one of them.
[01:15:47.730 --> 01:15:48.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know he was using the Oki.
[01:15:48.970 --> 01:15:51.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: We, we have a, we have a caller that's been waiting patiently.
[01:15:51.290 --> 01:15:51.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Caller, I'm sorry.
[01:15:52.030 --> 01:15:52.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, go ahead.
[01:15:52.450 --> 01:15:52.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's on your mind?
[01:15:53.910 --> 01:15:54.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[01:15:54.810 --> 01:16:02.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wish you had a local phone number so I wouldn't be racking up, uh, long distance charges waiting.
[01:16:03.050 --> 01:16:06.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, you really have a long distance plan?
[01:16:06.630 --> 01:16:08.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't think people still had long distance plans.
[01:16:08.770 --> 01:16:09.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I do.
[01:16:10.070 --> 01:16:10.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: I do.
[01:16:10.970 --> 01:16:11.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:16:12.190 --> 01:16:13.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'm sorry.
[01:16:13.310 --> 01:16:17.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, get us a two on two number and we'll be happy to use that instead, but this is, this is a cool one.
[01:16:17.150 --> 01:16:17.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: It spells hack.
[01:16:18.130 --> 01:16:19.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Nothing is actually in Vermont.
[01:16:19.810 --> 01:16:21.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: 802 is the area code for Vermont.
[01:16:21.430 --> 01:16:22.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:16:22.210 --> 01:16:24.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, get a local phone number.
[01:16:24.490 --> 01:16:25.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be two and two.
[01:16:26.870 --> 01:16:27.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:16:27.490 --> 01:16:28.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Six, four, six, nine, one, seven.
[01:16:30.730 --> 01:16:32.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Any of the local ones.
[01:16:32.430 --> 01:16:32.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[01:16:33.090 --> 01:16:37.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: But there's somebody in Vermont that's happy that we have a local number for them.
[01:16:38.690 --> 01:16:47.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you're, you're, you're making long distance charges for your... I honestly did not think there was still such a thing as long distance charges.
[01:16:48.230 --> 01:16:52.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I, what, what company do you, what company do you use that still charges you long distance to call Vermont?
[01:16:53.790 --> 01:17:02.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I can't remember where I, I originally got it, but it's, it's bundled through another company.
[01:17:03.050 --> 01:17:06.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, what difference does it make to you?
[01:17:07.870 --> 01:17:09.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd give you the information.
[01:17:09.750 --> 01:17:14.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, other than complaining about the number that you called in on, is there anything that you'd like to share with us?
[01:17:14.550 --> 01:17:14.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[01:17:15.550 --> 01:17:20.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I was hoping to hear, uh, from Huge Ma this evening.
[01:17:24.040 --> 01:17:24.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm, I'm sorry.
[01:17:25.060 --> 01:17:26.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was distracted for a second.
[01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:27.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: TurboVax?
[01:17:27.320 --> 01:17:27.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Say that again?
[01:17:29.540 --> 01:17:30.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: TurboVax.
[01:17:30.540 --> 01:17:33.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Huge Ma, the person who created TurboVax.
[01:17:34.080 --> 01:17:34.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:17:34.660 --> 01:17:39.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I was hoping to hear from him on the show this evening.
[01:17:39.740 --> 01:17:40.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, okay.
[01:17:40.980 --> 01:17:44.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, well... Anti-Asian hate and such.
[01:17:44.620 --> 01:17:45.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:17:45.100 --> 01:17:49.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not sure where, where you got the idea it was going to be on the show, but, um, uh, Rob, did you have something?
[01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:53.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, yeah, his, uh, his name, which I, I believe is pronounced Hugay Ma.
[01:17:53.880 --> 01:18:12.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, but, uh, yeah, he's, he's the person who made TurboVax and momentarily took it offline, um, to draw attention to the anti-Asian, um, murders and, uh, anti-Asian sentiment that had been going on in this country that unfortunately is very much still a problem and,
[01:18:12.920 --> 01:18:16.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: uh, using his platform to, uh, raise awareness.
[01:18:16.900 --> 01:18:20.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that, that is something that, uh, that is very important to us here.
[01:18:20.480 --> 01:18:23.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's something that we continue to keep an eye on.
[01:18:23.360 --> 01:18:28.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, we, we had not, uh, you know, arranged an, uh, an appearance or an interview.
[01:18:28.540 --> 01:18:47.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we don't know if he'd be into, uh, such a thing, but, um, we are definitely very much interested in keeping an eye on the issue and, uh, and similar situations in which people who find themselves with, um, elevated voices, um, are able to use that to get their messages across,
[01:18:47.460 --> 01:18:48.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: um, like he did.
[01:18:49.100 --> 01:18:53.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, he is interested in, in raising the profile of this issue.
[01:18:54.100 --> 01:18:57.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm sure if you asked him, he would be delighted.
[01:19:01.380 --> 01:19:03.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, Alex, it looked like you had something to say.
[01:19:04.440 --> 01:19:07.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, no, I'm, uh, just listening to the caller.
[01:19:07.720 --> 01:19:08.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was waiting for you.
[01:19:08.680 --> 01:19:08.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:19:09.040 --> 01:19:12.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, well, caller, we'll take that under advisement, but, uh, thanks for the suggestion.
[01:19:12.540 --> 01:19:14.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anything else that do you want to share with us?
[01:19:14.760 --> 01:19:15.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: What?
[01:19:16.080 --> 01:19:17.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, is there anything else you want to share with us?
[01:19:18.320 --> 01:19:18.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:19:19.120 --> 01:19:26.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you have, uh, uh, uh, delay, uh, between what you're saying and when it's broadcasting?
[01:19:26.080 --> 01:19:29.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when I'm on the phone, I notice there's a delay.
[01:19:29.260 --> 01:19:30.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's a delay at the station.
[01:19:30.420 --> 01:19:31.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, there always has been.
[01:19:33.320 --> 01:19:34.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, okay.
[01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:47.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: It just seemed weird to me because, you know, at the station, when you're broadcasting over the air, you want to be able to prevent people saying things that would get the station and trouble.
[01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:47.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:19:48.100 --> 01:19:51.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we can at the station, but you're not, you're not broadcasting.
[01:19:52.100 --> 01:19:56.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, well, obviously, but, uh, we, we can't control the delay system remotely.
[01:19:56.740 --> 01:20:15.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: We can control the delay system when we're at the station, but, um, you know, we, if somebody were to say something, uh, then, uh, we'd have seven seconds to wait for it to go out over the air, but we wouldn't be able to stop it unless of course, uh, we have an engineer in the studio that is basically hanging on our every word and we'll be able to judge that and,
[01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:17.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: and, and censor it in time.
[01:20:17.360 --> 01:20:20.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a lot, you know, it's, it's more complicated than it needs to be.
[01:20:21.020 --> 01:20:21.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:20:21.940 --> 01:20:24.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, that's interesting to learn about.
[01:20:25.500 --> 01:20:25.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[01:20:26.140 --> 01:20:28.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we're here to, uh, to share information.
[01:20:28.860 --> 01:20:30.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's like 20 seconds rather than seven, though.
[01:20:31.020 --> 01:20:31.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[01:20:31.400 --> 01:20:35.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's, uh, you're, you're listening on the, uh, on the Internet now, so that could take even longer.
[01:20:35.780 --> 01:20:35.780]  Right.
[01:20:36.040 --> 01:20:38.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, listen, we want to open up the phones to, to more people.
[01:20:38.180 --> 01:20:40.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for calling in and, uh, and best of luck.
[01:20:43.180 --> 01:20:48.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, um, we were talking about the, the, um, the case, uh, again, our phone number 802-321-4225.
[01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:49.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:20:49.180 --> 01:20:54.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Long distance charges may apply if, uh, if you're in the 1980s with Verizon or something like that.
[01:20:54.260 --> 01:20:55.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, they didn't exist back then.
[01:20:55.620 --> 01:21:01.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, but we were talking about the, um, uh, the case with surveillance cameras that, uh, was revealed a couple of weeks ago.
[01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:05.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, uh, this is a Swiss national who's been indicted.
[01:21:06.160 --> 01:21:09.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, does that, is that going to affect them?
[01:21:09.440 --> 01:21:11.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can they, can they be brought to this country?
[01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:19.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, possibly because, uh, the, the first battle here is going to be a battle over extradition.
[01:21:19.620 --> 01:21:35.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have the indictment, um, in the Western district of Washington and the U.S. government and the, uh, department of justice is going to have to make a case over to the Swiss authorities that Tilly, uh, foreign national should be extradited to the United States to face these charges.
[01:21:35.980 --> 01:21:37.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And why is it the Western district of Washington?
[01:21:38.840 --> 01:21:51.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, apparently that's where the site is of some of the crime happened or, or some of the acts that gave rise to the, uh, the CFAA case that a lot of that case were, uh, actually occurred.
[01:21:52.040 --> 01:21:58.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I don't know exactly what the jurisdictional nexus is to the Western district of Washington, but that's where the case is brought.
[01:21:58.600 --> 01:22:04.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh, it could, could it be, you know, that's where Microsoft, that's where Amazon, that's where all these companies are.
[01:22:04.080 --> 01:22:04.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:22:05.280 --> 01:22:06.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's true.
[01:22:06.340 --> 01:22:06.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:22:06.660 --> 01:22:18.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: And a lot of their systems, a lot of the data centers there in Kent and all over, all over South, South, uh, Southern downtown and, and up in Redmond, obviously.
[01:22:19.100 --> 01:22:30.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: But that whole Western part of the state has a lot of infrastructure that's important to those companies as does California, New York, you know, big cities tend to attract that kind of business these days.
[01:22:31.660 --> 01:22:32.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:22:32.140 --> 01:22:32.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have another phone call.
[01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:34.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's, uh, let's go back to the phones.
[01:22:35.500 --> 01:22:36.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[01:22:36.440 --> 01:22:37.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on off the hook.
[01:22:37.380 --> 01:22:37.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[01:22:38.640 --> 01:22:39.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, how are you?
[01:22:39.460 --> 01:22:39.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good.
[01:22:39.700 --> 01:22:40.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing?
[01:22:40.840 --> 01:22:41.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Pretty good.
[01:22:42.040 --> 01:22:53.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I had a question about, uh, the contest that was run about 11 years ago for the next hope contest 11 years ago, boy, you're a late entry.
[01:22:53.920 --> 01:22:54.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: What's the question?
[01:22:55.000 --> 01:22:55.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh no, I won.
[01:22:55.660 --> 01:22:56.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you won.
[01:22:56.440 --> 01:22:57.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, congratulations.
[01:22:57.360 --> 01:22:58.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: If we didn't say it before, congratulations.
[01:22:59.580 --> 01:23:00.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Candidates for the next hope.
[01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:01.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:23:01.740 --> 01:23:02.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's great.
[01:23:02.480 --> 01:23:04.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope you, uh, you benefited from that.
[01:23:05.760 --> 01:23:08.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: What, what, what did, what did we ask you to do and what did you do?
[01:23:09.880 --> 01:23:12.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was effectively an Internet scavenger hunt.
[01:23:13.100 --> 01:23:13.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:23:13.780 --> 01:23:14.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: We've done some of those.
[01:23:14.840 --> 01:23:15.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh huh.
[01:23:15.300 --> 01:23:15.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh huh.
[01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:16.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:23:16.380 --> 01:23:23.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and the prize, which from what I remember on the show at the time, uh, only 30 people made it.
[01:23:23.720 --> 01:23:28.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: The prize was a private Facebook group that we don't really use.
[01:23:28.700 --> 01:23:29.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:23:29.940 --> 01:23:33.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: That was the prize of a private, that's not a good prize.
[01:23:34.920 --> 01:23:35.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[01:23:35.360 --> 01:23:36.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I didn't make the contest.
[01:23:36.780 --> 01:23:37.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh huh.
[01:23:37.340 --> 01:23:40.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, may not have been us directly either.
[01:23:40.500 --> 01:23:41.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we'll have to check on that.
[01:23:41.980 --> 01:23:43.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that really, that was what your promise?
[01:23:43.640 --> 01:23:44.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't remember this.
[01:23:44.160 --> 01:23:48.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is this group still accessible and what do you talk about other than how crappy the prize was?
[01:23:49.180 --> 01:23:53.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I, well, I don't think so, but, uh, I mean the group is accessible, but I don't think anyone talks.
[01:23:53.800 --> 01:24:06.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, no, it was, it was one of the hacked websites that you did and you had to go into the source code and then you had to find, uh, capitals of countries, uh, Georgia specifically.
[01:24:06.860 --> 01:24:12.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, then you had to dial automated, uh, align and not leave a message, listen to this reverse speech.
[01:24:13.080 --> 01:24:13.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was excellent.
[01:24:14.140 --> 01:24:14.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: We did this.
[01:24:14.900 --> 01:24:15.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:24:15.220 --> 01:24:15.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm impressed.
[01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:19.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: I kind of vaguely remember this, but this was a very long time ago.
[01:24:19.120 --> 01:24:21.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: This was, uh, it was April 1st, uh, 2010.
[01:24:22.120 --> 01:24:22.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Sure.
[01:24:22.700 --> 01:24:22.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sure.
[01:24:22.980 --> 01:24:24.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: We did on April 1st too.
[01:24:25.340 --> 01:24:33.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, because at the time, uh, you, uh, you were either redirecting your site to like, let's say the FBI or packing it in general.
[01:24:33.880 --> 01:24:36.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think we had an ice, an ice page up for a while.
[01:24:36.280 --> 01:24:37.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've done things like that for sure.
[01:24:39.340 --> 01:24:50.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: And what I remembered was it was a 24 hour period in, uh, well, at Eastern Standard Time that you had to, to complete all of the, uh, tasks.
[01:24:51.100 --> 01:24:54.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I heard there were hundreds of entries, but only 30 people won.
[01:24:54.620 --> 01:24:55.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know what?
[01:24:55.440 --> 01:24:57.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I think I, I, I remember this.
[01:24:57.420 --> 01:25:00.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Were there, were there allusions to the TV program lost in it?
[01:25:02.700 --> 01:25:03.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Were you?
[01:25:03.540 --> 01:25:06.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: That I don't know because I didn't, I didn't watch lost.
[01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:07.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I wasn't sure.
[01:25:07.660 --> 01:25:07.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh huh.
[01:25:08.240 --> 01:25:11.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, did you get different emails saying you are a candidate or something like that?
[01:25:12.620 --> 01:25:12.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:25:13.160 --> 01:25:13.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:13.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:15.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: I do remember that now.
[01:25:15.300 --> 01:25:15.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:25:15.360 --> 01:25:15.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:18.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: I remember that, but I don't remember the details.
[01:25:18.360 --> 01:25:19.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's, that's, that's really awesome.
[01:25:19.980 --> 01:25:24.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember all the details either, but it was, it was just entertaining to have that.
[01:25:24.700 --> 01:25:26.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we're glad we can entertain people.
[01:25:26.500 --> 01:25:28.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's, that's always awesome to be able to do that.
[01:25:28.460 --> 01:25:30.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, I just asked what made you think of this?
[01:25:30.900 --> 01:25:31.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:25:31.360 --> 01:25:31.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why now?
[01:25:32.320 --> 01:25:38.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, well, I, I, um, I, I'm a frequent listener, uh, subscriber and all of that.
[01:25:38.980 --> 01:25:47.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I just figured, uh, I don't really call into radio shows cause it makes me nervous, but I figured the Internet is less so.
[01:25:47.600 --> 01:25:47.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:25:47.740 --> 01:25:49.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: This isn't technically a radio show anymore.
[01:25:49.300 --> 01:25:50.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you don't have to be nervous.
[01:25:51.820 --> 01:25:53.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's, yeah, that's true.
[01:25:53.400 --> 01:25:53.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:25:54.100 --> 01:26:06.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I, I just thought of it and then, and I, the reason I thought of the past was because, uh, you were doing the, uh, I guess the, um, phone messages that you had that you corrected the, uh, the audio with it.
[01:26:07.080 --> 01:26:08.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I figured it was just something else to mention.
[01:26:09.400 --> 01:26:10.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that's great.
[01:26:10.320 --> 01:26:14.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, thanks for the, the memory and bringing, uh, bringing our own puzzles back to us.
[01:26:15.040 --> 01:26:23.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: We, we love doing that kind of stuff, especially around, of course, April 1st, but then, um, the event itself, uh, we've done all kinds of different puzzles.
[01:26:24.100 --> 01:26:24.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Holy crap.
[01:26:24.660 --> 01:26:25.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: April 1st is around the corner.
[01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:26.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Don't worry about it.
[01:26:26.540 --> 01:26:27.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll, we'll get to that.
[01:26:27.580 --> 01:26:29.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, uh, we have nothing planned, Kyle.
[01:26:29.340 --> 01:26:30.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we always have to do something.
[01:26:30.600 --> 01:26:31.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: People can write us.
[01:26:31.380 --> 01:26:34.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: They can always email oth@2600.com.
[01:26:34.480 --> 01:26:40.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you have an idea for what we can do for enjoy throughout the world, please email us.
[01:26:40.360 --> 01:26:41.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: oth@2600.com.
[01:26:42.340 --> 01:26:44.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, caller, uh, what part of the world are you based in?
[01:26:45.280 --> 01:26:47.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, well, just over the river.
[01:26:47.340 --> 01:26:47.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in Jersey.
[01:26:48.220 --> 01:26:48.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, Jersey.
[01:26:49.000 --> 01:26:51.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: How, how is Jersey doing throughout this dark period?
[01:26:52.140 --> 01:26:56.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, well, they stopped banging pops at about eight o'clock.
[01:26:56.940 --> 01:26:57.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Remember that?
[01:26:57.380 --> 01:26:59.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was, was it eight or was it seven?
[01:26:59.380 --> 01:27:00.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: They did that about a month.
[01:27:00.500 --> 01:27:01.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought it was seven o'clock.
[01:27:01.920 --> 01:27:03.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe that's why everybody gave me dirty looks.
[01:27:04.400 --> 01:27:05.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Spending my pops the whole time.
[01:27:05.120 --> 01:27:06.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, here it was a different time.
[01:27:06.900 --> 01:27:07.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[01:27:07.640 --> 01:27:09.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so it was eight in Jersey, it was seven in New York.
[01:27:09.540 --> 01:27:11.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because New York, New Jersey can never agree on anything.
[01:27:11.580 --> 01:27:11.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, well.
[01:27:12.020 --> 01:27:12.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why should they agree on that?
[01:27:13.840 --> 01:27:16.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: I, I occasionally send you guys notes when you're not on the air.
[01:27:17.160 --> 01:27:17.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh.
[01:27:17.700 --> 01:27:17.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:27:18.120 --> 01:27:18.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: So.
[01:27:18.420 --> 01:27:18.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, of course.
[01:27:19.180 --> 01:27:19.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm, I'm back.
[01:27:20.280 --> 01:27:20.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[01:27:20.940 --> 01:27:22.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: And how have you fared?
[01:27:23.700 --> 01:27:25.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I've had COVID twice.
[01:27:25.940 --> 01:27:26.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[01:27:26.880 --> 01:27:27.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hold on a second.
[01:27:27.420 --> 01:27:28.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've had COVID twice?
[01:27:28.780 --> 01:27:29.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think I've talked to anybody.
[01:27:29.840 --> 01:27:30.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've had COVID twice.
[01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:31.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Jeez Louise.
[01:27:31.780 --> 01:27:33.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: How did you manage that?
[01:27:34.300 --> 01:27:39.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the first time I couldn't get a test, uh, cause no one could at that time.
[01:27:39.520 --> 01:27:42.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, that was the end of March, uh, a year ago.
[01:27:43.420 --> 01:27:54.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and then the second time I was diagnosed, uh, in January of this year and they gave me a course of steroids and things of that nature.
[01:27:54.940 --> 01:28:01.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then I, uh, ended up in the hospital two weeks later with a high heart rate and things of that nature.
[01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:14.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But they treated me and, uh, I'm, I'm doing well, but I actually can't get a vaccine until May because they want me to wait from having COVID to getting the vaccine.
[01:28:14.620 --> 01:28:14.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[01:28:15.260 --> 01:28:15.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:28:15.580 --> 01:28:17.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: That I've heard of that from a few people.
[01:28:17.280 --> 01:28:17.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: It does make sense.
[01:28:18.440 --> 01:28:22.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, but the important thing is that you get that vaccine when, when it's time for you to do that.
[01:28:23.700 --> 01:28:23.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:28:24.920 --> 01:28:26.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: My wife has already gotten her first shots.
[01:28:27.280 --> 01:28:27.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:28:28.000 --> 01:28:29.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you know how you were exposed?
[01:28:31.880 --> 01:28:33.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I don't actually.
[01:28:33.540 --> 01:28:40.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I mean, I'm the only one who leaves the apartment usually because I, uh, we, I have a manual, so I drive around in that.
[01:28:40.620 --> 01:28:42.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I get the groceries and things like that.
[01:28:42.800 --> 01:28:44.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's probably how I did it.
[01:28:45.640 --> 01:28:47.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: But you were wearing masks the whole time, I would imagine.
[01:28:48.060 --> 01:28:48.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[01:28:48.840 --> 01:28:49.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Of course.
[01:28:49.360 --> 01:28:49.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:53.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, well, well, I don't use like a hope mask, but I do have it.
[01:28:53.820 --> 01:28:53.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:28:54.040 --> 01:28:56.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wouldn't use the hope mask as, as your only mask.
[01:28:56.560 --> 01:28:58.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's, that's like a decorative mask.
[01:28:58.460 --> 01:29:01.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, um, yeah, we've been wearing two masks the whole time.
[01:29:01.780 --> 01:29:07.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, you know, I, I got an antibody test before I got my vaccine and I came out a negative, which is good.
[01:29:07.660 --> 01:29:17.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that means that something must've worked, but, um, it, it's, it's really something to hear from someone who's been through this twice and it actually was hospitalized, but, uh, you sound great.
[01:29:17.660 --> 01:29:21.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: You sound like you really, uh, um, are, are, are making it through this.
[01:29:22.080 --> 01:29:28.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I just hope the day comes where we can all be in attendance at a conference in person together.
[01:29:29.840 --> 01:29:30.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: That would be excellent.
[01:29:31.460 --> 01:29:32.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:29:32.240 --> 01:29:37.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, congratulations on, on, on being one of the winners of, of the conference 11 years ago or the contest.
[01:29:37.920 --> 01:29:42.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, and please, uh, stay in touch and, and, and send us whatever, whatever you come across.
[01:29:43.360 --> 01:29:48.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe the Facebook, maybe the Facebook group can become a puzzle team for the next one or something.
[01:29:50.020 --> 01:29:50.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we'll see.
[01:29:50.920 --> 01:29:51.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: That would work.
[01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:51.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:29:52.080 --> 01:29:52.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:29:52.640 --> 01:29:53.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm trying to remember more of this.
[01:29:53.880 --> 01:29:54.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you again for your call.
[01:29:55.500 --> 01:29:56.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[01:29:56.160 --> 01:29:56.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take care.
[01:29:58.160 --> 01:29:58.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[01:29:58.920 --> 01:29:59.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting call, huh?
[01:30:00.560 --> 01:30:00.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:30:01.080 --> 01:30:06.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's, that's amazing that, uh, the caller has had COVID twice and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm glad they're still okay.
[01:30:06.820 --> 01:30:12.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, you know, quit hogging the pandemic, save some for other people, but, um, no, please don't do that.
[01:30:12.100 --> 01:30:14.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: The thing is you can still get COVID folks.
[01:30:14.480 --> 01:30:15.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not too late.
[01:30:15.320 --> 01:30:16.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can still get it.
[01:30:16.220 --> 01:30:17.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, it's very possible.
[01:30:17.880 --> 01:30:23.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and especially if you don't, uh, take precautions, not that this person didn't take precautions.
[01:30:23.580 --> 01:30:34.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: It can happen to people who do take precautions, but for those people down in Florida and Texas and other places, it's just, it makes me so angry because all the work that people are doing around the world.
[01:30:34.120 --> 01:30:47.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's for not, if there are people who ignore that or, or, or minimize it, you know, the, the, the, the president of, um, of, uh, uh, Tanzania recently died, a COVID denier.
[01:30:47.480 --> 01:30:48.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: He died of COVID.
[01:30:49.320 --> 01:30:50.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, that says it all.
[01:30:50.800 --> 01:31:06.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: How many idiotic leaders have we seen over the past couple of years that have, uh, have tried to minimize the danger and have put their own people at risk and are responsible for thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of people dying and certainly getting sick.
[01:31:07.420 --> 01:31:13.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I, I like to think that we've learned something and we're moving forward, but then I see what's going on in, in, in some of these States.
[01:31:13.220 --> 01:31:17.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it really, you know, it, it, it makes me sad and angry.
[01:31:18.360 --> 01:31:27.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, if we don't get back to normal this, uh, this year, that's why, that's why it's not for the scientists, not trying their best.
[01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:29.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not for people who are taking precautions.
[01:31:29.880 --> 01:31:41.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's for those who think there's a conspiracy around every corner or that they're being lied to, or that they're somehow, uh, able to not be affected by a disease.
[01:31:41.480 --> 01:31:43.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, um, it's crazy.
[01:31:44.300 --> 01:31:44.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:31:44.800 --> 01:31:45.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: And uncooperative.
[01:31:45.680 --> 01:31:47.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Could you check the telephone lines for us?
[01:31:47.860 --> 01:31:48.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see.
[01:31:48.240 --> 01:31:49.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: We, we, we think there might be a call.
[01:31:49.520 --> 01:31:49.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know.
[01:31:49.920 --> 01:31:50.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't drop it.
[01:31:50.640 --> 01:31:51.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see if someone's there.
[01:31:51.660 --> 01:31:52.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Otherwise I'll drop this.
[01:31:52.720 --> 01:31:52.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:31:53.020 --> 01:31:54.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is anybody there?
[01:31:54.900 --> 01:31:55.380]  Hi.
[01:31:55.560 --> 01:31:56.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, there was somebody there.
[01:31:56.680 --> 01:31:56.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:31:56.920 --> 01:31:57.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[01:31:57.220 --> 01:31:57.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where are you calling from?
[01:31:58.860 --> 01:32:00.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, I'm calling from New York.
[01:32:01.580 --> 01:32:09.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I'm stuck in the city, but I enjoy listening to your show on Wednesday, but I had two questions for you.
[01:32:09.900 --> 01:32:18.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, one that's like stuck in the back of my head and the other one was something Alex said earlier about mixing up your data.
[01:32:18.180 --> 01:32:22.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was wondering how he would suggest doing that.
[01:32:22.540 --> 01:32:25.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then my second question for you is about, um, children.
[01:32:25.740 --> 01:32:33.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I see everyone posting, um, their children on Instagram, on Facebook, they're creating individual profiles for them.
[01:32:34.080 --> 01:32:41.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm wondering if you guys think that they're creating like almost artificial profiles for these kids.
[01:32:41.260 --> 01:32:48.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that by the time they're 18, they'll have like in depth, um, I guess like social profiles.
[01:32:49.320 --> 01:32:50.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, I'm going to let you take this one.
[01:32:52.100 --> 01:32:52.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, sure.
[01:32:53.180 --> 01:32:58.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I think the first question that the caller had asked was about poisoning one's own data set.
[01:32:58.340 --> 01:33:08.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that, you know, for a lot of people we've had social media accounts going back to as far back as 2006, right?
[01:33:08.400 --> 01:33:13.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, talking about 15 years ago, I think were, were some of the earliest Facebook accounts.
[01:33:13.560 --> 01:33:15.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so that's a lot of data.
[01:33:15.480 --> 01:33:16.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's a massive amount of data.
[01:33:16.540 --> 01:33:29.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you were actually to download that data and print it out, it would be a hugely voluminous amount of data more than any intelligence agency on the planet would ever compile in a dossier about you.
[01:33:29.520 --> 01:33:40.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: So just in terms of privacy and the psychology about which these, these companies have been compiling data is, is really, it's through the roof.
[01:33:40.420 --> 01:33:43.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so how do we get control of that data again?
[01:33:43.560 --> 01:33:44.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do we do that?
[01:33:44.540 --> 01:33:48.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, how do we make this data not relevant to advertisers?
[01:33:49.020 --> 01:33:57.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, you know, you can opt out of targeted advertising, but there's still a huge amount of data that's going to be collected about you based on where your phone is, what apps you're using.
[01:33:58.280 --> 01:34:02.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, basically anything you do on your phone can be logged.
[01:34:03.500 --> 01:34:12.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: So taking that data and taking external data, putting it into that data set, that data or that data subset is going to change your profile.
[01:34:13.340 --> 01:34:24.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, you know, let's say you have a whole bunch of bogus Amazon emails coming into your Gmail account that are talking about the purchasing of adult diapers, let's just say, right?
[01:34:24.560 --> 01:34:39.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: That might not jive with the profile that the social media companies or any of these targeted advertisers have about you being, let's say, somebody in your early 30s or in your 20s, or in fact, having children.
[01:34:39.740 --> 01:34:47.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, so there's lots of different ways that you can trick them into making that data not as useful as it was in the past.
[01:34:47.080 --> 01:34:56.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that there will probably be more technological means to do this on a more massive scale coming forward over the next few years.
[01:34:56.560 --> 01:35:20.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's especially, I think, if these technology companies and social media platforms resist regulation or resist any kind of oversight, and also refuse to acknowledge liability for certain things like causing an insurrection or massive amounts of misinformation and deceptive advertising during perhaps the 2016 election.
[01:35:20.980 --> 01:35:25.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: So that's, you know, the first question about poisoning the data set.
[01:35:25.240 --> 01:35:31.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: The second question, I think, was about children and putting the faces of children online.
[01:35:32.600 --> 01:35:35.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I do have a great amount of pause.
[01:35:35.600 --> 01:35:47.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that's an extraordinarily interesting question as well, because I have two children, and I've only ever put one of their faces on social media.
[01:35:47.580 --> 01:36:04.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think it's for the exact reasons that you said, caller, which is that we don't want to have our children out there on social media and have their faces recognized by these algorithms before they even have a social media account.
[01:36:05.080 --> 01:36:13.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, there are a massive amount of data scrapers that go out and look for publicly available pictures, information, perform facial recognition.
[01:36:13.200 --> 01:36:18.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: They may be creating, well, it's not maybe, they certainly are.
[01:36:18.160 --> 01:36:30.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are companies that are creating huge databases of facial recognition data that are then sold to government agencies, law enforcement, and quite likely other foreign countries as well.
[01:36:30.920 --> 01:36:43.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you think about, you know, let's say, you know, my seven-year-old son, who maybe at one point later on in his life will become some kind of political activist, socialist, or any of us, really.
[01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:55.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, let's say we want to, you know, work with human rights first and trying to combat the terrible treatment that China is perpetuating with respect to the Uyghurs.
[01:36:55.180 --> 01:36:59.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: But yet you may have to travel to China for business for one particular reason or another.
[01:36:59.760 --> 01:37:04.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Having your face out there on social media is going to allow you to be tracked.
[01:37:04.340 --> 01:37:13.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so there are a lot of implications, I think, when it comes to who you are, what you do, where you can be tracked, and your reasonable expectations of privacy.
[01:37:13.840 --> 01:37:23.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that as well, you know, children, when I grew up in the 70s and the 80s, we had a different conception of privacy.
[01:37:24.120 --> 01:37:28.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: We had a different conception of what it meant to have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
[01:37:29.360 --> 01:37:34.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: My seven-year-old son notices surveillance cameras when we go into stores.
[01:37:34.600 --> 01:37:35.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's just part of his life.
[01:37:35.700 --> 01:37:38.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, he loves to point them out and find where they are.
[01:37:38.340 --> 01:37:40.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, he's got a hacker mentality just like me.
[01:37:41.360 --> 01:37:48.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: But growing up with surveillance cameras all around you definitely changes what you believe to be your reasonable expectation of privacy.
[01:37:48.900 --> 01:37:57.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think it detracts from one's life in a great sense too, because when I was a kid growing up, I'd get away with a lot of stuff.
[01:37:57.900 --> 01:38:00.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: I knew I wasn't being watched all the time.
[01:38:00.180 --> 01:38:02.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I knew I wasn't being tracked all the time.
[01:38:02.500 --> 01:38:05.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so I think it really, it curtails your freedom.
[01:38:05.380 --> 01:38:07.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: It curtails your sense of adventure as well.
[01:38:09.400 --> 01:38:09.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:38:09.900 --> 01:38:21.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the biggest things that I think about with this sort of thing are the fact that so many of these social media sites, well, first, it's in their terms of service, that if you're below a certain age, you're not supposed to be using the service.
[01:38:21.220 --> 01:38:35.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, and so when, when parents, uh, are okay with it and do it anyway, you know, that's, that's a decision that you're making for your child before your child is, um, informed enough and of a maturity level to make that decision for themselves.
[01:38:36.420 --> 01:38:49.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, there, there are so many things that like, as Alex said, uh, you know, my generation of kids could get away with, could do, and then have forgotten as part of like the mistakes you make when you're growing up that, uh, that just aren't possible now.
[01:38:49.700 --> 01:39:03.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I know there are so many things that I am glad there was not the, the modern, uh, social media sphere or the modern web around when I did them, because I was able to grow and learn from these things without having it permanently archived somewhere that comes up every time I'm in a job interview.
[01:39:03.760 --> 01:39:12.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, there's, there's that whole angle to this sort of thing where you are, you are putting, you are putting something out there that you no longer control.
[01:39:12.400 --> 01:39:13.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anybody can archive it.
[01:39:13.420 --> 01:39:14.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anybody can copy it.
[01:39:14.360 --> 01:39:21.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anybody can feed it through some, you know, whatever systems, whatever algorithms to further identify and track your child.
[01:39:21.700 --> 01:39:24.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm saying that is really a decision.
[01:39:24.860 --> 01:39:32.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe that, uh, is best made by the, by the person involved by the kid when they're old enough to make this decision.
[01:39:32.820 --> 01:39:34.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I would, I would agree with that.
[01:39:34.420 --> 01:39:41.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I also think that, you know, I've got friends who started Facebook pages for their children when their children were named.
[01:39:42.040 --> 01:39:45.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: So sometimes these kids have Facebook pages before they're even extant.
[01:39:45.800 --> 01:39:59.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, which also just weirds me out on a personal level, but you know, when you have a picture, like you're going to hand this child a Facebook profile when they are old enough to manage it on their own.
[01:39:59.820 --> 01:40:01.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that also just terrifies me.
[01:40:01.740 --> 01:40:08.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, if you want to document your child's growth, I think a photo album might be a nice option.
[01:40:08.500 --> 01:40:13.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, perhaps better than a Facebook page at the other end of it.
[01:40:13.160 --> 01:40:23.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, when my brother and sister-in-law had a child, they embargoed us from putting the child on social media and they actually both deactivated all their social media accounts.
[01:40:24.120 --> 01:40:29.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, our baby nephew does not exist in social media.
[01:40:29.260 --> 01:40:30.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just kind of amazing.
[01:40:30.920 --> 01:40:31.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good for him.
[01:40:31.540 --> 01:40:31.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:43.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, and there are still ways, uh, that you can, uh, do like digitally document this kid's life for the family, as you would in a photo album, as you would, uh, to share with, you know, your relatives, the people in your child's life.
[01:40:43.760 --> 01:40:52.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, there are ways to do that on a private level without, uh, putting it out there through the, you know, through some social media companies that, uh, you know, have all sorts of things in mind to do with that data.
[01:40:53.520 --> 01:41:10.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the, the, the game is kind of stacked against you, even to just take a private photo, because a lot of people are using smartphones to take the photos in the first place that can often be connected with a service or something external to the device that you're capturing that memory on.
[01:41:10.920 --> 01:41:20.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, um, so just even having stuff privately, it's in keeping it secure for your, uh, family is, is a task in and of itself.
[01:41:20.800 --> 01:41:24.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: So there's as, there's as many strategies as you can think of.
[01:41:24.520 --> 01:41:29.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think it's up to parents individually to come up with a, uh, something suitable that they're comfortable with.
[01:41:29.560 --> 01:41:35.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: And also just allow, allowing, uh, young people to gravitate towards that stuff on their own.
[01:41:35.960 --> 01:41:49.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think as, as much as our generation was given as far as opportunities, like we didn't have as much of this pervasive, um, uh, surveillance capitalism when we were, uh, coming of age.
[01:41:49.740 --> 01:41:59.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then, uh, when this stuff was available, we were probably old enough to adopt it or not, or choose how we use it where you're doing this as Gia talked about.
[01:41:59.600 --> 01:42:08.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we were saying like, before they're actually little people yet, um, it, it just completely hijacks their ability to curate that identity.
[01:42:08.960 --> 01:42:21.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I would qualify that by pointing out on the flip side, just how much pressure there is at ever younger ages for them to curate a social media profile.
[01:42:21.740 --> 01:42:29.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, their, their concepts of success nowadays are, I have to be an influencer.
[01:42:29.000 --> 01:42:31.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have to be a young child athlete.
[01:42:31.340 --> 01:42:36.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have to be excellent at this and have all these followers and be really skilled.
[01:42:36.620 --> 01:42:45.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And there's so, so much pressure already on young people to then have a psychotic social media platform.
[01:42:46.000 --> 01:42:56.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: They're taunting them with, with their, their insecurities and, and what their peers are doing better, I think is a certain kind of hell that you're, you're indenturing them to.
[01:42:56.500 --> 01:42:58.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, I had so much trouble with bullies when I was growing up.
[01:42:58.980 --> 01:43:02.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: I can't even imagine how I would fit in cyber bullying as well.
[01:43:02.940 --> 01:43:09.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, what kids have to deal with these days, we should always, um, uh, celebrate when they rebel against this.
[01:43:09.400 --> 01:43:12.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: When they say, I don't want to be on Facebook.
[01:43:12.100 --> 01:43:13.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want a social media profile.
[01:43:13.940 --> 01:43:15.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't care about influencing.
[01:43:15.200 --> 01:43:16.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, this is not for me.
[01:43:17.080 --> 01:43:19.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just want to go out and, and, and play ball or something.
[01:43:20.640 --> 01:43:35.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: And one last thing is with video games and with all of these technologies, I saw something the World Health Organization put out recently, and I think other groups would advocate this is that young people need experienced guides when they're using technology,
[01:43:35.340 --> 01:43:36.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: including video games, including the Internet.
[01:43:37.140 --> 01:43:50.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: They need people there who are older, who know the technology, parents, um, uh, you know, other role models and influencers in their lives that can help them make sense of all good influencers, not the stupid influencers.
[01:43:51.360 --> 01:43:52.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's up to parents.
[01:43:52.680 --> 01:43:53.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've ruined that word.
[01:43:53.500 --> 01:43:54.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: That word is destroyed for me.
[01:43:54.700 --> 01:43:55.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't mean influence.
[01:43:55.560 --> 01:43:57.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, I mean, role model.
[01:43:57.700 --> 01:43:58.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: What is it?
[01:43:58.360 --> 01:43:58.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, role model.
[01:43:59.220 --> 01:44:05.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or, uh, but a role model that, that, that can also appreciate kids doing their own thing and going in a totally different direction.
[01:44:05.900 --> 01:44:06.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: I appreciate it.
[01:44:06.620 --> 01:44:14.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know there's a, there's a word, there's a chaperone, but yeah, someone that can let them explore, but be there to help interpret.
[01:44:14.440 --> 01:44:18.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Carla, have we, have we begun to address some of your, uh, concerns or questions?
[01:44:19.420 --> 01:44:20.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: Beautifully, yes.
[01:44:21.220 --> 01:44:30.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, no, the, the, the kid, kids on Instagram, really, it's haunting because my parents never had social media, never posted a picture of me.
[01:44:31.320 --> 01:44:41.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, they showed pictures of me to everyone, naked pictures, which I didn't appreciate when I was like 10, but I couldn't imagine, waking up and seeing them on Facebook one day.
[01:44:42.060 --> 01:44:47.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and a lot of them are like, like babies being washed or, or getting dressed up.
[01:44:47.700 --> 01:44:54.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have friends and I've, I've watched their children grow up from like day one to like five and I, I know everything about them.
[01:44:55.300 --> 01:44:56.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it's scary.
[01:44:58.100 --> 01:44:59.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's, it's uncharted waters.
[01:44:59.760 --> 01:45:03.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is, this is a type of voyeurism that we really have not explored.
[01:45:03.900 --> 01:45:08.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: We don't really know the impact of it and it's, and it's sort of this ongoing experiment.
[01:45:08.380 --> 01:45:19.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: See, we, we, we want to share, you know, uh, these, these milestones in our kids' lives, but I think we've forgotten how to share with the people we want to share with them, not the entire damn world.
[01:45:19.720 --> 01:45:21.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then it becomes a popularity contest.
[01:45:21.940 --> 01:45:24.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then it becomes a invasion of privacy.
[01:45:24.880 --> 01:45:28.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's, it's a complete disservice to, to the children.
[01:45:28.820 --> 01:45:29.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead, Rob.
[01:45:29.700 --> 01:45:34.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: So there, there's also the angle where, um, these social media companies, they're advertising companies.
[01:45:34.760 --> 01:45:36.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're powered by advertising.
[01:45:36.800 --> 01:45:44.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if you put a child in front of it, that child has the most powerful advertising machines in, in the world pointed at their heads.
[01:45:44.460 --> 01:45:47.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Every time they're sitting in front of that, in front of that app, in front of that site.
[01:45:48.040 --> 01:45:57.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: So like before a child is old enough to have developed a proper sense of say media literacy or awareness of what the advertising environment is trying to do to them.
[01:45:57.380 --> 01:46:02.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, you know, how to, how to survive that with, uh, with their, you know, agency intact.
[01:46:02.980 --> 01:46:16.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, you're putting, you're putting your kid in front of Facebook's ad algorithms, Twitter's ad algorithms, and having their not yet completely formed brains being, uh, being bombarded by that level of, uh, high profile, high, uh, intensity advertising.
[01:46:17.180 --> 01:46:20.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's, that's another whole angle, like the effect on the health of a child.
[01:46:22.600 --> 01:46:25.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you just ask us one question and we'll just go forever.
[01:46:29.460 --> 01:46:29.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:46:29.900 --> 01:46:32.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, thanks for your call and, uh, keep listening.
[01:46:33.280 --> 01:46:33.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[01:46:33.660 --> 01:46:34.140]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks guys.
[01:46:34.300 --> 01:46:34.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Have a good night.
[01:46:35.020 --> 01:46:35.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take care.
[01:46:37.020 --> 01:46:40.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I guess maybe, uh, one more call if we have time for it.
[01:46:40.960 --> 01:46:45.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5, because what time did we lose our satellite window?
[01:46:45.460 --> 01:46:46.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, 10 o'clock?
[01:46:46.620 --> 01:46:48.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, yeah, we have a weather warning.
[01:46:48.860 --> 01:46:51.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, we have a call by the way.
[01:46:51.700 --> 01:46:52.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, yeah.
[01:46:52.580 --> 01:46:53.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, uh, wow.
[01:46:53.140 --> 01:46:54.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: We've been going for a good 50 minutes.
[01:46:54.640 --> 01:46:54.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:46:54.960 --> 01:46:57.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just, it's, uh, I mean, it's great.
[01:46:57.260 --> 01:46:59.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I like talking to listeners and really eclectic.
[01:46:59.980 --> 01:47:01.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Got nothing else to do.
[01:47:01.280 --> 01:47:02.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just have a toothache here.
[01:47:02.480 --> 01:47:05.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, Rob Gila, how are you doing with your, with your, uh, shots there?
[01:47:05.960 --> 01:47:08.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's starting to kick in a little, a little bit.
[01:47:09.140 --> 01:47:18.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's mostly just, uh, being really low energy, which, uh, I'm sure none of you even noticed the difference, but, uh, but no, my, my arm kind of hurts, but, uh, you know, beyond that, we're okay for now.
[01:47:19.020 --> 01:47:20.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Apparently it's going to kick our ass tomorrow.
[01:47:20.660 --> 01:47:20.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll see.
[01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:21.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought you might be asleep.
[01:47:22.000 --> 01:47:27.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why I asked, you know, so I think maybe, uh, maybe it's starting to, uh, to hit you a little bit, but, uh, we'll see.
[01:47:27.920 --> 01:47:28.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:47:28.320 --> 01:47:29.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's, uh, see who's on, on the line.
[01:47:30.080 --> 01:47:30.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[01:47:30.660 --> 01:47:31.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on off the hook.
[01:47:32.880 --> 01:47:33.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, how are you doing everybody?
[01:47:34.400 --> 01:47:34.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing?
[01:47:34.980 --> 01:47:35.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's up?
[01:47:35.660 --> 01:47:36.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[01:47:36.500 --> 01:47:39.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you guys for, you know, keeping the show going the extra hour.
[01:47:39.480 --> 01:47:42.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know it's a lot of extra work for you guys, but you know, really appreciate hearing you.
[01:47:42.600 --> 01:47:45.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we, we, we enjoy talking to our listeners and this is the way to do it.
[01:47:45.560 --> 01:47:45.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:47:45.780 --> 01:47:46.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks for listening.
[01:47:47.320 --> 01:47:47.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Cool.
[01:47:47.960 --> 01:47:49.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, Hey, how about this real quick?
[01:47:49.460 --> 01:47:52.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just came up with this instead of, instead of influencer, influenza.
[01:47:54.800 --> 01:47:55.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:47:55.520 --> 01:47:56.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's, I mean, it's viral.
[01:47:56.680 --> 01:47:57.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's for sure.
[01:47:57.620 --> 01:47:59.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean like caretaker.
[01:47:59.320 --> 01:48:02.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know there's a word that it just seemed, I'm not, I don't know.
[01:48:02.980 --> 01:48:03.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:48:03.320 --> 01:48:04.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: We do need more words.
[01:48:06.440 --> 01:48:10.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I did want to bring up, uh, well, real quick about poisoning the data set.
[01:48:10.820 --> 01:48:12.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have a friend who's, she's been doing this forever.
[01:48:12.680 --> 01:48:21.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Every time she you order something from a store, she'll change, you know, the first name or the last name or, or she'll put, you know, male instead of female.
[01:48:21.460 --> 01:48:24.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like every time she's signed up for things, she like changes it just slightly.
[01:48:24.380 --> 01:48:26.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: And she's been onto this forever.
[01:48:26.060 --> 01:48:33.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I've been like, Oh, you're the smartest thing to do because if they're collecting data and it's big data, just make it dirty.
[01:48:33.440 --> 01:48:34.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: It makes it wacky.
[01:48:34.540 --> 01:48:35.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: It messes everything up.
[01:48:35.920 --> 01:48:41.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you also find out who they're sharing with because if that name shows up somewhere else, you know, where'd they get it from?
[01:48:41.520 --> 01:48:41.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[01:48:42.320 --> 01:48:42.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:48:43.100 --> 01:48:43.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:48:43.540 --> 01:48:44.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can track it.
[01:48:44.200 --> 01:48:45.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like, uh, like cookies.
[01:48:45.860 --> 01:48:47.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wait, is it like your cookies?
[01:48:47.320 --> 01:48:47.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Pretty much.
[01:48:47.900 --> 01:48:48.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:48:48.120 --> 01:48:50.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're like leaving little crumbs for your... Homemade cookies.
[01:48:50.680 --> 01:48:50.680]  Yeah.
[01:48:50.780 --> 01:48:52.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: A little digital cookie crumbs for yourself.
[01:48:52.880 --> 01:48:54.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like we need to have our own cookies.
[01:48:54.900 --> 01:49:02.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I just wanted to follow up on something that kept coming up on a caller was calling the last couple of weeks and talking about the car, car data and stuff.
[01:49:02.180 --> 01:49:10.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: And there was, I just wanted to, you know, put out, there was an article in Ars Technica this, this week or the last week, the company called Ulysses.
[01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:17.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and they, you know, they say that they can get the location in real time of every car in America by 2025 or whatever.
[01:49:17.660 --> 01:49:22.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was kind of curious about the, the, I think it was like 2007.
[01:49:22.800 --> 01:49:32.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's like this Wi-Fi thing that like is required in your car to, so that your tires can tell the car when they're out of air and that every car after that has that.
[01:49:32.100 --> 01:49:33.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I was just wondering if you guys know more about that.
[01:49:34.400 --> 01:49:36.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've heard rumors of something late in the show.
[01:49:37.140 --> 01:49:38.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've heard rumors of something like that.
[01:49:38.940 --> 01:49:40.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've heard of that being developed.
[01:49:40.540 --> 01:49:44.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not sure if such a thing actually exists.
[01:49:44.280 --> 01:49:48.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: What it might be doing is sharing the same spectrum, but using a specific frequency.
[01:49:48.960 --> 01:49:59.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, 802.11, like that two gigahertz or five gigahertz band might be something that's because it's public, the auto manufacturers could take advantage of that.
[01:50:00.020 --> 01:50:12.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, but that's kind of dynamic and changing itself now since so much of the infotainment and controls and sensors are, are evolving and becoming ever more sophisticated.
[01:50:13.320 --> 01:50:17.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, so they could have sort of let go of that.
[01:50:17.300 --> 01:50:22.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: It may be only a specific batch of years, but I'm not a hundred percent sure about that.
[01:50:22.220 --> 01:50:23.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alex, you seem to have perked up.
[01:50:23.480 --> 01:50:24.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is, uh, do you have some information on this?
[01:50:26.740 --> 01:50:27.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not anymore.
[01:50:27.680 --> 01:50:32.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think Kyle had just relayed, but I would, I would assume that it would be something like that.
[01:50:32.760 --> 01:50:43.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that perhaps it would have something to do with cars passing by certain types of public infrastructure with that type of wireless technology.
[01:50:43.520 --> 01:50:57.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then there may be some kind of, of private public partnership to sell that data or release that data or, or perhaps, and I think this is something that we're going to see more of in the future as well.
[01:50:57.560 --> 01:51:10.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I would like to see more of it as well, because it increases accountability, transparency, but the whole concept of a data escrow where this particular type of data may be available to the public for certain types of uses.
[01:51:10.760 --> 01:51:24.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, and it would be out in an escrow or some sort of data trust, you know, so that if you can demonstrate to the trust that you have a legitimate, you know, non-law enforcement, non-privacy invasive use for this particular type of data, you may be able to access something like that.
[01:51:25.020 --> 01:51:36.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I see that infrastructure and government will probably be tracking a lot more when it comes to cars, trucks, any kind of devices passing through it.
[01:51:36.420 --> 01:51:49.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, because as our caller from a couple of weeks ago noted, uh, I think very well, the main reasoning behind this is to charge us more for the type of infrastructure that we use.
[01:51:49.420 --> 01:52:03.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: So there's a, a very, very much a vested interest in trying to track where we go and what we use and what roads we use frequently or tolls we, we pass by most because then they can tax us more about this, uh, for that particular use.
[01:52:03.860 --> 01:52:13.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: But Alex, don't you think it's, it's mostly so that they can track us period, whether or not they are charging us for the privilege, the fact that they're able to know where we go, where we are at pretty much at all times.
[01:52:13.780 --> 01:52:18.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that there's not much of a way to get out of it for, for people without imagination.
[01:52:18.760 --> 01:52:19.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, of course.
[01:52:19.520 --> 01:52:22.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, the privacy implications of this are, are absolutely huge.
[01:52:22.100 --> 01:52:40.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's why I, I, I fear for these types of, of public private projects that, that don't have a lot of transparency or any kind of third-party stewardship to make sure that they are doing the right thing and respecting privacy, the privacy of, of citizens who may unknowingly be giving this data away.
[01:52:40.440 --> 01:52:51.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's why I think some kind of data escrow or some kind of data trust for this type of public data or data that our governments are collecting would be a much better fit than, than a private contract.
[01:52:51.440 --> 01:52:57.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just want to add, there's going to be real importance for these schemes to be, um, interoperable.
[01:52:57.400 --> 01:53:04.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: And as, uh, you're insinuating relatively secure, like taking care of people's stuff.
[01:53:04.360 --> 01:53:16.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, and the, the reason that may have fallen out if it was using, used for like tire pressure stuff is, um, the security environment itself was sort of evolving and there wasn't something standardized.
[01:53:16.600 --> 01:53:23.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: That may have very well have been a way people could have accessed the vehicle, um, network itself.
[01:53:23.120 --> 01:53:26.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: There were all, there are all kinds of, um, documented cases.
[01:53:26.600 --> 01:53:36.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know there was one case of cars could be broken into by removing the rearview mirror and accessing the CAN bus or some aspect of the car's computer to unlock it.
[01:53:36.480 --> 01:53:48.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, I just want to mention for people that are interested in some of the future stuff that is going to make, that is really on a lot of vehicles now is it's V2X, vehicle to everything communication.
[01:53:49.040 --> 01:53:52.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the standard is 802.11p.
[01:53:52.740 --> 01:54:02.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, um, it uses two types as far as I can read as WLAN or wireless LAN based as well as cellular based.
[01:54:02.340 --> 01:54:20.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is all the kind of cool stuff that's going to come down as far as, um, you know, vehicles knowing where other vehicles are to kind of help with, um, autonomous, um, uh, operating systems on each vehicle so that it can send something and then send out messages to other vehicles.
[01:54:20.820 --> 01:54:34.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they're really trying to codify this, uh, specifically the national highway transportation, um, groups in the U.S. because there is, um, a predicted reduction in traffic accidents.
[01:54:34.300 --> 01:54:43.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's all kinds of advantages to this going forward as we become more populous and busy out there, but it is yet to really be across the board.
[01:54:43.400 --> 01:54:47.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, you have whole ages of cars, lots of different technologies out there.
[01:54:47.840 --> 01:54:53.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: So it wouldn't be surprising if, um, one particular model leaked stuff like this.
[01:54:53.840 --> 01:54:57.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: And so we have to kind of share as much as we can about them.
[01:54:57.600 --> 01:54:59.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I'm really glad you brought that up.
[01:55:01.900 --> 01:55:02.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Cool.
[01:55:02.440 --> 01:55:02.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:55:02.640 --> 01:55:06.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's, yeah, it's been an issue that's kept coming up on the show a couple of weeks and I just saw the article.
[01:55:06.460 --> 01:55:07.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: I figured I'd bring it up.
[01:55:07.480 --> 01:55:12.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I also want to say on the way out, just, uh, the hacker crackdown by Bruce Sterling.
[01:55:13.620 --> 01:55:20.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: If anyone hasn't, you know, listeners haven't read it, that totally it's like hundreds of pages on the night lightning case and all that stuff.
[01:55:20.560 --> 01:55:21.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like the greatest.
[01:55:23.080 --> 01:55:24.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, I love that book.
[01:55:24.740 --> 01:55:28.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I read that book before I actually ever even had a computer.
[01:55:28.720 --> 01:55:38.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and I think I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that, uh, that book was so inspiring to me that, uh, I tracked down Bruce Sterling, the author of it.
[01:55:38.600 --> 01:55:42.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think it was 1994 or might've even been 1993.
[01:55:42.420 --> 01:55:43.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: He ruined his Thanksgiving.
[01:55:43.920 --> 01:55:47.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've heard this story so many times that, uh, I'm sure he remembers it too.
[01:55:47.380 --> 01:55:47.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanksgiving.
[01:55:48.140 --> 01:55:49.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I read Box to call to him on Thanksgiving.
[01:55:49.800 --> 01:55:51.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: We ended up talking for several hours.
[01:55:52.240 --> 01:55:58.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, uh, and I, I think at the time the book was, uh, was still under his copyright.
[01:55:58.560 --> 01:56:01.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think he has released it to the public domain.
[01:56:01.740 --> 01:56:07.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and, and so anybody can, can find it online, can download it, can, uh, get the PDF.
[01:56:08.340 --> 01:56:12.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Perhaps, um, we can even maybe tweet something out about that book.
[01:56:12.160 --> 01:56:17.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's the book where he referred to me as a dissident and it's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said about me.
[01:56:18.240 --> 01:56:18.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:56:19.100 --> 01:56:19.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:56:20.060 --> 01:56:20.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:56:20.740 --> 01:56:22.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: In three syllables for sure.
[01:56:23.000 --> 01:56:23.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[01:56:24.220 --> 01:56:26.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, well, caller, thank you for, uh, for your call and keep listening.
[01:56:27.120 --> 01:56:27.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, thank you.
[01:56:27.980 --> 01:56:28.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you guys.
[01:56:28.620 --> 01:56:29.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your show is great.
[01:56:29.300 --> 01:56:29.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[01:56:29.820 --> 01:56:30.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take care.
[01:56:31.300 --> 01:56:38.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's, um, that's going to do it for calls, I think, because it's after nine o'clock now, Eastern time, not for the first time off the hook.
[01:56:38.700 --> 01:56:40.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Overtime is longer than off the hook.
[01:56:40.920 --> 01:56:41.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Imagine that.
[01:56:42.040 --> 01:56:51.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Does that happen often with baseball games that go 25 innings or, you know, when, when hockey used to have overtime instead of that stupid shootout thing, they, uh, they used to have long games.
[01:56:51.880 --> 01:56:52.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[01:56:52.180 --> 01:56:54.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well then I've disabled the telephones.
[01:56:54.800 --> 01:56:55.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: The phone has been disabled.
[01:56:56.100 --> 01:56:58.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: It has been disabled, but you can still write to us.
[01:56:58.360 --> 01:57:01.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: oth@2600.com that we didn't, we don't take that down.
[01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:03.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do we?
[01:57:03.440 --> 01:57:03.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, we don't.
[01:57:04.240 --> 01:57:04.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:57:05.120 --> 01:57:08.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, and again, we're not going to be on next week because we're preempted.
[01:57:08.800 --> 01:57:12.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, there's a special report to the listener, which would be interesting to hear on WBAI.
[01:57:12.340 --> 01:57:17.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, but then we're on for five consecutive weeks and, um, and that's, that's, that's good to look forward to.
[01:57:19.480 --> 01:57:20.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that's great.
[01:57:20.340 --> 01:57:26.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, my legs are getting tired, but you know, thanks to everybody who called in made off, uh, Off The Hook Overtime, what it was tonight.
[01:57:27.160 --> 01:57:27.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:57:27.940 --> 01:57:30.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, we will see you in a couple of weeks, please get that vaccine.
[01:57:30.900 --> 01:57:35.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you have the opportunity to get the vaccine, if you can help other people get appointments, please do that.
[01:57:35.940 --> 01:57:39.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, try and, and stop the misinformation from being spread around.
[01:57:39.880 --> 01:57:42.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, um, we'll get through this.
[01:57:42.420 --> 01:57:44.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: We were in better shape than we were.
[01:57:44.820 --> 01:57:47.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, we're, we're, we're making progress.
[01:57:47.740 --> 01:57:50.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's, it's through, it's through efforts of, of people like you.
[01:57:50.840 --> 01:57:53.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: So please, dear listeners, um, uh, keep it up.
[01:57:54.400 --> 01:57:59.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Rob, I hope you, I hope you feel, uh, feel good that the second shot doesn't affect you too badly.
[01:58:00.280 --> 01:58:00.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, thank you.
[01:58:01.200 --> 01:58:01.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: God willing.
[01:58:01.860 --> 01:58:02.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, likewise for you.
[01:58:02.840 --> 01:58:07.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I, well, I hope my toothache, my toothache goes away just in time for me to get the ache from the second shot.
[01:58:07.900 --> 01:58:12.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I hope everybody else, uh, qualifies as soon as possible and is able to do that.
[01:58:13.340 --> 01:58:18.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, interesting period of time we're living through, but we're gonna, we're gonna make it, we're gonna get through this.
[01:58:18.660 --> 01:58:19.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Stay curious y'all.
[01:58:19.940 --> 01:58:20.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:58:20.900 --> 01:58:21.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[01:58:21.220 --> 01:58:21.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: See you in a couple of weeks.
[01:58:22.160 --> 01:58:22.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good night.