Off The Hook - 2021-09-29

[00:00.000 --> 00:08.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: ...away, so brace yourself for that program as they usually deliver something that is quite titillating and interesting.
[00:09.620 --> 00:12.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is now 7 p.m.
[00:12.300 --> 00:13.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for Off The Hook.
[00:14.160 --> 00:14.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Coming up.
[00:29.020 --> 00:29.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hello.
[00:32.060 --> 00:33.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: I said, hello.
[00:33.620 --> 00:35.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:36.140 --> 00:42.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's 7 o'clock on a Wednesday, and it usually means it's time for Off The Hook.
[00:47.940 --> 00:52.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.400 --> 00:57.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:58.580 --> 01:03.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:03.580 --> 01:06.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: But Billy Bump would have best expect the worst.
[01:06.820 --> 01:09.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that's understood, but Billy Bump!
[02:35.030 --> 02:36.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:36.810 --> 02:38.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:38.790 --> 02:41.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:42.590 --> 02:43.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Come in.
[02:44.330 --> 02:50.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And over in Skype-land, which changes my voice as soon as I turn it on, we have Alex.
[02:51.390 --> 02:52.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[02:52.930 --> 02:58.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And Rob and Gila are away on assignment, I understand, so we won't be hearing from them this week.
[02:58.250 --> 03:00.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we will be hearing from them next week.
[03:01.190 --> 03:04.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have all kinds of things to talk about on this program.
[03:04.390 --> 03:11.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: And of course, at 8 o'clock, we go to overtime over on our YouTube channel, youtube.com/Channel2600.
[03:11.310 --> 03:18.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: But for now, we have an hour here on WBAI, which is a gift.
[03:18.110 --> 03:20.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: A gift to us and to our listeners.
[03:21.030 --> 03:26.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: And another reason why you should support WBAI as much as you can.
[03:27.250 --> 03:29.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: I cannot stress that enough.
[03:29.270 --> 03:33.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-209-2950 or the website give2wbai.org.
[03:34.930 --> 03:39.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully, next hour, we'll help prove that a little bit.
[03:40.930 --> 03:42.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: As I said, we have a lot to talk about.
[03:43.870 --> 03:51.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was a major hack with the far-right site epic or provider epic.
[03:53.470 --> 03:54.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's all kinds of things going on.
[03:54.990 --> 04:01.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we had some late-breaking news this week.
[04:02.190 --> 04:04.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've talked about this in the past a few times.
[04:05.270 --> 04:12.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Our friend Virgil Griffith, who is currently in prison, I believe, in the New York City area.
[04:14.710 --> 04:17.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: His trial is supposed to begin on Monday.
[04:19.290 --> 04:31.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Virgil has been held on suspicion, and I'm not sure if I'm even going to get this right, a suspicion of helping North Korea evade sanctions.
[04:34.730 --> 04:36.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: It sounds absurd when you say it out loud.
[04:37.770 --> 04:39.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because quite honestly, I believe it is absurd.
[04:41.590 --> 04:43.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Virgil is a friend of mine, a good friend of mine.
[04:43.330 --> 04:56.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is somebody who is incapable of doing something destructive or in any way negative.
[04:56.770 --> 04:59.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's also incapable of lying, and I'll get to that in a minute.
[05:00.230 --> 05:08.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because when you don't have that ability in your life, lots of times, people don't get you.
[05:09.270 --> 05:16.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I've spent a good amount of my life dealing with a lot of people, or maybe dealing sounds negative.
[05:16.890 --> 05:20.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, working with, being with people that others don't get.
[05:21.770 --> 05:22.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's hard.
[05:23.130 --> 05:44.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's hard to be able to advocate and try to explain how people can think differently and still be on your side, still be good, still be somebody that you can work with, even if they're not what you're used to.
[05:45.370 --> 05:51.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: So anyway, I mentioned the trial is supposed to begin on the 27th, which was Monday.
[05:53.550 --> 05:54.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's not happening.
[05:55.270 --> 05:56.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not happening.
[05:56.510 --> 06:00.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going to read you the BBC report first.
[06:01.850 --> 06:13.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: A cryptocurrency expert, that's Virgil, who gave a talk at a Pyongyang conference, Pyongyang being in North Korea, has admitted conspiring to help North Korea evade sanctions.
[06:14.650 --> 06:19.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Virgil Griffith, a former senior researcher with the Ethereum Foundation, pleaded guilty on Monday.
[06:19.750 --> 06:20.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: The U.S.
[06:20.770 --> 06:24.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Department of Justice said he had jeopardized the national security of the United States by undermining sanctions.
[06:25.570 --> 06:30.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: His lawyer told the Wall Street Journal, Griffith was sincerely remorseful.
[06:32.110 --> 06:41.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: In April of 2019, Virgil attended the Pyongyang blockchain and cryptocurrency conference with about 100 other attendees.
[06:43.670 --> 06:46.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, I should point out...
[06:46.070 --> 06:47.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you in a submarine, Alex?
[06:48.490 --> 06:49.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm hearing peeing noises.
[06:50.810 --> 06:59.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I should point out that the act of going to North Korea alone is a crime.
[07:00.650 --> 07:03.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because basically, Donald Trump made it a crime.
[07:04.070 --> 07:05.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a fact.
[07:05.350 --> 07:07.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's simply the way things are right now.
[07:07.430 --> 07:09.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: It wasn't a crime when I went to North Korea.
[07:09.570 --> 07:12.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was perfectly legal as an American.
[07:12.330 --> 07:15.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: I happen to go as a European because I'm a dual citizen.
[07:16.410 --> 07:18.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it was legal to go as an American.
[07:18.530 --> 07:20.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully it will be legal to go as an American again.
[07:20.270 --> 07:23.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because we're not used to being told we can't go here.
[07:23.310 --> 07:25.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're not allowed to go to this country.
[07:26.650 --> 07:37.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there really is no harm in going to different countries, talking to people, and sharing ideas and culture and things like that.
[07:37.630 --> 07:40.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was a very positive experience for me.
[07:40.330 --> 07:46.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I feel bad because, you know, that's one of the things I told Virgil when I went there.
[07:47.390 --> 07:48.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: That it was a positive experience.
[07:49.130 --> 07:50.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Many hackers have gone to North Korea.
[07:51.630 --> 07:58.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's in no way an endorsement of the horrible regime they have over there or the terrible things they do to people.
[07:58.890 --> 08:00.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: In no way is it that.
[08:00.670 --> 08:04.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it is a desire.
[08:04.270 --> 08:09.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: A desire to open doors and communicate and see people one-on-one.
[08:09.570 --> 08:14.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And maybe, in our naive way of thinking, maybe even make things a little bit better.
[08:15.530 --> 08:19.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, we've been taught communication is a good thing.
[08:20.150 --> 08:25.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's what a lot of the hacker community is about, communications, sharing.
[08:26.650 --> 08:43.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: But again, you know, we get into this area where he's being accused of something, which 100% of me knows he did not do or intend to do.
[08:44.130 --> 08:48.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Simply, the act of going to North Korea is enough.
[08:49.070 --> 08:52.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's basically what this is all about.
[08:56.130 --> 08:59.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: So he had applied for permission to travel to North Korea.
[08:59.890 --> 09:02.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, keep in mind, he lived in Singapore.
[09:03.090 --> 09:05.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: He had lived in Singapore for years.
[09:07.430 --> 09:10.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he asked the State Department, hey, can I go to North Korea?
[09:10.610 --> 09:12.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's this crypto conference I'd like to go to.
[09:12.790 --> 09:13.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can I get clearance?
[09:15.370 --> 09:18.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think he was a bit surprised when that was refused.
[09:20.650 --> 09:24.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: And again, this is just me thinking out loud.
[09:24.110 --> 09:40.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if I lived in Singapore, if I lived far away from the United States, even though I was an American citizen, I would say, why do I have to listen to people far away telling me that I can't go to this particular place when it's right there?
[09:40.270 --> 09:41.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's so close to where I am.
[09:41.710 --> 09:43.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there's this cool conference I want to go to.
[09:44.010 --> 09:45.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it was wrong.
[09:45.410 --> 09:46.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was illegal.
[09:48.270 --> 09:50.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he's readily admitted to that.
[09:50.250 --> 09:53.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I believe that is what he's admitting to right now.
[09:54.030 --> 09:55.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: The fact that he did that.
[09:55.410 --> 09:56.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a violation of sanctions.
[10:03.110 --> 10:06.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he came back to New York at one stage.
[10:08.310 --> 10:09.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sometime, I believe, in 2019.
[10:11.070 --> 10:14.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I remember we were hanging out.
[10:15.170 --> 10:20.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he mentioned that the FBI had contacted him and wanted to talk to him about his trip to North Korea.
[10:23.230 --> 10:29.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when that happens, obviously, all sorts of alarm bells go off.
[10:30.450 --> 10:32.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, the FBI wants to talk to you.
[10:32.470 --> 10:34.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: You never know what could really happen.
[10:35.470 --> 10:44.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: None of us, nobody thought this was going to be a super big deal, except for the fact that, yes, he went to North Korea when he wasn't supposed to go to North Korea.
[10:45.830 --> 11:01.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when you say it, when you process it in your head, and just realize what it was, simply going to a place you're told not to go, how bad is that?
[11:02.210 --> 11:08.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, the way the media describes it, he went to North Korea to help the North Koreans.
[11:08.930 --> 11:16.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, he went to a place he wasn't supposed to go to attend the conference that he wanted to be at.
[11:17.850 --> 11:20.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Especially in the context of easing of tensions.
[11:21.190 --> 11:25.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there was a moment of sort of international diplomacy.
[11:26.390 --> 11:26.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[11:27.550 --> 11:30.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't forget, that was when Trump was basically...
[11:30.750 --> 11:32.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this was the one thing I was hoping he would succeed.
[11:32.970 --> 11:34.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was hoping he'd succeed at a lot of things.
[11:34.590 --> 11:39.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: But this was the one thing I thought he had a chance at succeeding at, was opening the door to North Korea.
[11:39.650 --> 11:41.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, Trump even went to North Korea.
[11:41.470 --> 11:43.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: He stepped foot in the country.
[11:43.230 --> 11:43.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: We all saw it.
[11:44.210 --> 11:46.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you remember the commemorative coins they issued?
[11:46.690 --> 11:47.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have one.
[11:47.330 --> 11:47.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[11:47.650 --> 11:53.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: I got a commemorative coin, a North Korean piece, something or other, from the United States, because I knew they'd never make another one.
[11:54.150 --> 12:04.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: But from, you know, the outside looking in, you would say, well, this is maybe a moment when you would want people to be more open to interacting and communicating, as you said.
[12:04.650 --> 12:05.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[12:05.190 --> 12:10.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, it's this naive thought that maybe we as individuals can make things a little bit better.
[12:10.170 --> 12:12.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's why we publish a magazine.
[12:12.130 --> 12:13.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's why we do a radio show.
[12:13.110 --> 12:13.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's why we have conferences.
[12:14.750 --> 12:19.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's why we insist on being open about everything we do.
[12:19.550 --> 12:21.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm speaking about people in the hacker community.
[12:24.590 --> 12:31.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, he was invited to go to the FBI in New York and talk to them about what he was doing over there.
[12:32.650 --> 12:36.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, I strongly advised him, bring a lawyer with you.
[12:36.530 --> 12:42.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: But he felt that just going over there, telling them exactly what happened, was the best way to go forward.
[12:43.010 --> 12:46.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Never in his wildest dreams did he think this would be a problem.
[12:47.350 --> 12:51.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because, again, we're all taught, tell the truth.
[12:51.110 --> 12:53.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you tell the truth, what can go wrong?
[12:54.190 --> 12:55.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's what he did.
[12:55.170 --> 12:55.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: He went there.
[12:55.830 --> 12:56.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: He told the truth.
[12:56.610 --> 12:57.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: He brought...
[12:57.570 --> 12:59.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I remember this so vividly.
[12:59.590 --> 13:03.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: He brought North Korean newspapers to the FBI.
[13:04.450 --> 13:06.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: He brought souvenirs to them as gifts.
[13:07.990 --> 13:10.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: He thought they were friends.
[13:10.870 --> 13:17.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: He thought they were on the same side, that everybody understood each other, where he was coming from.
[13:17.790 --> 13:26.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I remember he told me that after he left, they said, we don't think this is a big deal.
[13:27.670 --> 13:29.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly what everyone else thought.
[13:31.290 --> 13:39.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then seven months later, on his way to his parents' home for Thanksgiving, he was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport.
[13:39.070 --> 13:53.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: And his life has been torn apart ever since, because he's being accused of helping probably the biggest enemy that we have out there, we being the United States.
[13:54.490 --> 13:57.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's a contentious relationship, no question about that.
[13:58.990 --> 14:08.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: He presented a brief talk on rudimentary blockchain technology.
[14:09.010 --> 14:11.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nothing that you can't find with a simple Google search.
[14:12.510 --> 14:16.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: But when you are invited to North Korea, you give something back.
[14:16.610 --> 14:19.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: And here's a talk.
[14:19.890 --> 14:23.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here's some information that you can easily find on your own.
[14:23.990 --> 14:25.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's part of being polite.
[14:26.010 --> 14:32.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's part of just being a good traveler, a good representative of where it is you're coming from.
[14:32.250 --> 14:35.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: The title of his presentation was Blockchain and Peace.
[14:36.850 --> 14:38.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, Blockchain and Peace.
[14:38.490 --> 14:40.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Doesn't sound very dangerous, does it?
[14:42.590 --> 14:55.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Prosecutors said that Virgil had given a presentation on blockchain technology and cryptocurrency with topics approved by North Korean officials, which sounds ominous, ominous, but that's how it works.
[14:55.310 --> 14:57.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's how everything is over there.
[14:57.230 --> 15:01.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you want a hamburger, that has to be approved by North Korean officials.
[15:01.310 --> 15:01.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Come on.
[15:02.550 --> 15:03.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And here's a quote.
[15:03.770 --> 15:10.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Participated in discussions regarding using cryptocurrency technologies to evade sanctions and launder money.
[15:11.350 --> 15:12.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is a real stretch.
[15:13.230 --> 15:14.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is a real stretch.
[15:14.710 --> 15:31.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because if somebody at a particular conference asks you a question and your answer is something that can theoretically help in evading some kind of sanction, just basically...
[15:31.010 --> 15:33.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: If we did this, would it have this effect?
[15:33.470 --> 15:35.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: The answer being maybe.
[15:35.050 --> 15:36.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: That could help.
[15:36.430 --> 15:38.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, something as innocuous as that.
[15:39.130 --> 15:43.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's really not hard to fall into this trap.
[15:43.890 --> 15:49.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And let me tell you, when you go to North Korea, you want to be polite.
[15:50.490 --> 15:57.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, you want to not hand over secrets or anything stupid like that.
[15:57.570 --> 15:57.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[15:58.590 --> 16:01.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: You want to be polite and answer questions.
[16:01.430 --> 16:06.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if somebody asks a question, you answer to the best of your ability.
[16:06.410 --> 16:07.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: You maintain your...
[16:07.310 --> 16:18.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, when I was on a bus in North Korea, one of the tour guides or minders as they're called by us wanted to look at my MP3 player.
[16:19.450 --> 16:20.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: What was I going to do?
[16:20.490 --> 16:21.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Say, yeah, you know what?
[16:21.870 --> 16:26.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think you looking at the Sex Pistols is really something that I want to share.
[16:27.010 --> 16:27.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[16:28.270 --> 16:37.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're in their country and in a potentially very dangerous situation, you be as polite as you possibly can be.
[16:37.950 --> 16:40.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And sure, you know, he was listening to the music I was listening to.
[16:41.030 --> 16:41.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was curious.
[16:42.210 --> 16:43.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: No big deal.
[16:43.350 --> 16:46.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was really nothing bad that could have happened from that.
[16:46.390 --> 16:48.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you try to be as open as possible.
[16:48.270 --> 16:56.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when someone goes to a country like that, the fear that you have is what might happen to them over there.
[16:56.310 --> 16:57.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've seen people.
[16:57.330 --> 17:01.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've seen what's happened to people who misbehave in even the slightest way.
[17:01.810 --> 17:04.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: That person who tried to steal a banner.
[17:05.030 --> 17:05.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Otto Warmbier.
[17:05.890 --> 17:06.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[17:06.270 --> 17:07.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: And stupid thing to do.
[17:08.090 --> 17:09.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really stupid thing to do.
[17:10.230 --> 17:14.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I was worried worried about that, about people doing something stupid while over there.
[17:15.130 --> 17:19.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Never in my wildest dreams did I think the real threat was over here when he got back.
[17:20.490 --> 17:30.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that is why he thought just visiting the FBI, having a conversation with them was a good idea.
[17:32.170 --> 17:45.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't know if something happened in the chain of command where they were telling him the truth and they said this isn't a big deal and then somebody said, no, let's make this a big deal.
[17:46.830 --> 17:54.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have successfully been able to portray him as a quite literal enemy of the state.
[17:55.830 --> 18:06.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, I'm tempted to laugh and cry at the same time because I know Virgil, I know Virgil very well and he is incapable.
[18:06.950 --> 18:13.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't mean this as an insult but he is incapable of being an enemy of the state.
[18:13.750 --> 18:21.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: The mere thought has me wondering if I'm stuck in some Kafkaesque novel that never got published.
[18:21.890 --> 18:26.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is somebody as I mentioned before who cannot tell a lie.
[18:26.890 --> 18:31.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you ask him a question he will give you a lecture.
[18:31.550 --> 18:32.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: He will answer it.
[18:33.030 --> 18:35.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's not giving away state secrets.
[18:35.630 --> 18:42.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, he doesn't have any state secrets but he basically is doing what many hackers have done.
[18:42.610 --> 18:50.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And unfortunately, when I look back on it, I look back at some of my friends over the years, Phiber Optik being one of them, Kevin Mitnick.
[18:51.090 --> 18:56.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: These are people that were always very open that would explain things to people who were interested in learning.
[18:57.790 --> 19:06.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it was because of that that the federal government came down on them harder because they were seen as particularly dangerous because they had knowledge.
[19:06.970 --> 19:14.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the message that that sent, especially to our young people, was that knowledge is dangerous and you should avoid that at all costs.
[19:14.930 --> 19:25.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I should point out, in the case of Phiber and Kevin, once they were released, I think society finally realized these people are assets.
[19:26.250 --> 19:27.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: We should be embracing them.
[19:27.790 --> 19:28.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: We should be listening to them.
[19:29.030 --> 19:31.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: And ever since, we have.
[19:32.290 --> 19:34.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I thought we had learned that lesson.
[19:36.010 --> 19:42.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the Virgil Griffith case tells me that we most definitely have not learned that lesson.
[19:42.990 --> 19:52.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And viewing him as some kind of arch villain that is hell-bent on helping North Korea evades.
[19:52.950 --> 19:55.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why would he be helping North Korea of all countries?
[19:55.850 --> 19:57.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course he is not doing that.
[19:57.590 --> 19:59.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: He has no interest in helping them.
[19:59.930 --> 20:08.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: What he does have an interest in though, what any hacker has an interest in, is explaining how systems work and how systems can break.
[20:08.910 --> 20:15.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he, you better believe, would tell anybody who wanted to listen at the U.S.
[20:15.730 --> 20:34.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: government exactly what the problem with a particular system was and how to make it better if they had only listened to him instead of trying to paint him as somebody who is evil and up to something.
[20:35.790 --> 20:43.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: And right now, he, I understand completely why a guilty plea makes sense.
[20:44.270 --> 20:49.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who can go up against this kind of portrayal.
[20:49.970 --> 20:57.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: And as he said to me when I was talking to him, yes, I evaded sanctions by going to North Korea.
[20:58.530 --> 20:59.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, that is true.
[21:01.130 --> 21:04.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: When you do that, there's no denying it.
[21:04.130 --> 21:10.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's why he went to the FBI and he was worried that they might take
[21:16.210 --> 21:18.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't even think anybody has been prosecuted for this.
[21:19.650 --> 21:22.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: For going to North Korea after Trump said you're not allowed to go to North Korea.
[21:22.810 --> 21:24.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think anyone was prosecuted for that.
[21:24.550 --> 21:26.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: So nobody thought this would be a big deal.
[21:26.730 --> 21:27.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nobody thought that.
[21:30.470 --> 21:37.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: So now he sits in prison awaiting sentencing, I believe, in January.
[21:46.210 --> 21:58.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can't process this because here's a good friend of mine that I know is a good person that I know is incapable of doing the things that people seem to think that he
[22:16.210 --> 22:16.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: In jail.
[22:17.390 --> 22:20.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: With about a thousand other people.
[22:21.470 --> 22:24.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: All helping each other out.
[22:24.290 --> 22:25.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: All supporting each other.
[22:26.610 --> 22:28.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I was traumatized.
[22:28.490 --> 22:30.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was traumatized from that.
[22:31.110 --> 22:33.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: From having all that support around me.
[22:33.730 --> 22:36.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: From that very short period of time.
[22:38.150 --> 22:41.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And here's Virgil sitting in federal prison.
[22:43.130 --> 22:44.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: In a horrible place.
[22:45.050 --> 22:49.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: A place that he is not capable of surviving.
[22:50.750 --> 22:55.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's not somebody that should be in a situation like that.
[22:56.550 --> 23:02.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And yet, we've decided that that is appropriate.
[23:02.530 --> 23:04.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the place that he should be right now.
[23:05.790 --> 23:09.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when sentencing comes in January, it could get a whole lot worse.
[23:10.590 --> 23:17.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because if he continues to be seen in this ridiculous light.
[23:18.430 --> 23:19.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: As some kind of arch villain.
[23:20.930 --> 23:23.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: We could be talking years.
[23:23.710 --> 23:24.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Many years.
[23:26.590 --> 23:28.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is not somebody who should be in prison.
[23:28.470 --> 23:30.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is somebody who should be lecturing at Stanford.
[23:30.730 --> 23:33.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: We should be listening to what he says.
[23:33.890 --> 23:35.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: As to what he has learned.
[23:35.270 --> 23:36.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Look at his past.
[23:36.290 --> 23:37.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Look at the things he has done.
[23:38.470 --> 23:42.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: He launched a project.
[23:42.970 --> 23:44.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believe it's called Wikiscanner.
[23:45.690 --> 23:53.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: That allowed anyone to see who was making changes to particular Wikipedia pages.
[23:54.390 --> 24:02.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: In particular, if a congressman was changing what was said about a particular congressman.
[24:02.510 --> 24:03.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: About themselves.
[24:04.030 --> 24:04.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was revealed.
[24:05.070 --> 24:06.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was on the Colbert Report.
[24:09.350 --> 24:11.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was celebrated for this.
[24:11.650 --> 24:12.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because it was honesty.
[24:13.150 --> 24:14.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was showing the world.
[24:15.510 --> 24:16.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: What the truth was.
[24:17.930 --> 24:19.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a lot of people don't like that.
[24:19.370 --> 24:19.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know.
[24:20.370 --> 24:20.850]  But...
[24:20.850 --> 24:22.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's kind of what we do.
[24:24.990 --> 24:27.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he's done many, many things like this.
[24:27.670 --> 24:28.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Always involved in some project.
[24:29.070 --> 24:33.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Always stretching his brain to figure out, like, how could this work?
[24:34.390 --> 24:38.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I know there are people who just don't appreciate that.
[24:38.110 --> 24:43.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't get the way that people who are into technology express themselves.
[24:45.310 --> 24:50.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, there's a lot of attention drawn to statements.
[24:50.950 --> 25:07.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: These were in the reports, in some of the court documents, that he said something to the effect of, I need to be able to deposit one Ethereum or Bitcoin or something like that into this account.
[25:09.630 --> 25:17.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if you don't understand what a theoretical statement is, you would think that that's exactly what he was going to do.
[25:17.670 --> 25:18.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he never did any such thing.
[25:20.710 --> 25:22.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's hard to explain.
[25:22.330 --> 25:23.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's hard to explain.
[25:23.330 --> 25:30.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: But that is how theoretical ideas work.
[25:30.570 --> 25:37.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: You say, I need to get to Mars before Elon Musk does, by using this particular type of technology.
[25:37.570 --> 25:39.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're not actually going to Mars.
[25:39.590 --> 25:40.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right?
[25:40.890 --> 25:44.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a brain challenge that you're trying to figure out.
[25:44.890 --> 25:45.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know?
[25:46.950 --> 25:49.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's really hard to explain this.
[25:50.330 --> 25:55.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's really easy to portray somebody as having all kinds of devious plans.
[25:56.670 --> 26:02.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if you just step back for a minute and look at the facts and look at the person, you realize how absurd that is.
[26:03.010 --> 26:17.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in this particular case, knowing so much personally about the person, about the location, about various technologies at work, it really, really hits me how absurd it is.
[26:17.570 --> 26:25.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: But again, the absurdity takes a backseat to the outrage, to knowing that a friend of mine is in this horrible place.
[26:26.270 --> 26:28.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't know if he can survive this.
[26:28.510 --> 26:30.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if...
[26:30.070 --> 26:31.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if I could survive this.
[26:34.980 --> 26:38.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I do know the months ahead are going to be difficult because we need to...
[26:39.760 --> 26:44.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: We need to show support and be there.
[26:44.460 --> 26:58.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, the other thing that gets me in all this is that you may see in the news when somebody is charged with a crime and is awaiting sentencing, oftentimes they don't have to await sentencing in a federal prison.
[26:58.440 --> 27:04.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can show up in court after being outside, you know?
[27:04.000 --> 27:31.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the only reason he's in prison right now is because he supposedly violated the terms of, I believe, supervised release or whatever the legal term is, by allegedly accessing a cryptocurrency exchange at the request of his lawyers so that he could pay his lawyers.
[27:33.720 --> 27:42.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And apparently doing that was a violation, enough of a violation to have him immediately thrown into prison.
[27:43.400 --> 27:46.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, that is not right.
[27:47.220 --> 27:51.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is not... he was trying to pay his lawyers and he's being punished for that.
[27:51.800 --> 27:53.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that is why he's in prison now.
[27:53.960 --> 27:59.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not because of anything I'm going to do with North Korea, because he tried to pay his lawyers and did it the wrong way.
[28:03.450 --> 28:05.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that, to me, is just...
[28:06.640 --> 28:10.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: it's just too outrageous to even process as well.
[28:11.760 --> 28:13.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway, so that is...
[28:14.800 --> 28:16.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: that is where we are now.
[28:16.500 --> 28:19.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: The trial was supposed to happen on Monday.
[28:21.840 --> 28:24.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's not happening now because of the guilty plea.
[28:25.640 --> 28:32.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, we look back on various cases, pretty much all the cases that we've covered on this show over the years.
[28:32.160 --> 28:35.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they almost always involve a guilty plea at some point.
[28:37.020 --> 28:40.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because that is really the only option that's open in many cases.
[28:43.760 --> 28:44.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's tragic.
[28:44.800 --> 28:45.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's sad.
[28:45.260 --> 28:50.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: But in this particular case, I think there is still hope that justice can prevail.
[28:51.800 --> 28:52.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I really hope so.
[28:52.940 --> 28:57.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because, like I said, this is somebody who does not belong in prison.
[28:57.220 --> 28:59.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is somebody who can benefit society in so many ways.
[28:59.360 --> 29:01.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is somebody who has given so much.
[29:04.040 --> 29:05.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we need to make that clear.
[29:08.280 --> 29:10.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry for hogging so much time.
[29:10.180 --> 29:12.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know, Alex, you've been involved somewhat in this case.
[29:12.920 --> 29:19.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I want to point out that since you are an attorney, there are certain things that you can't say.
[29:19.760 --> 29:20.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I get that.
[29:20.900 --> 29:28.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's reasons we haven't been saying things over the past few weeks because we didn't want to say anything that could be misconstrued.
[29:28.900 --> 29:32.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: And somehow a juror could hear it over our airwaves.
[29:33.220 --> 29:36.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, it's frustrating.
[29:36.300 --> 29:38.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I respect it.
[29:39.300 --> 29:43.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, I abide by as many of these rules as I can stand.
[29:44.100 --> 29:46.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's not for lack of caring.
[29:46.820 --> 29:51.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not for lack of interest on our part that we have stayed silent on this.
[29:52.020 --> 29:54.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's that we want to do what's right.
[29:55.020 --> 29:56.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: We want the truth to come out.
[29:57.560 --> 29:59.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: We want justice to prevail.
[29:59.740 --> 30:05.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: And most of all, we want Virgil to walk free because he suffered enough for a mistake.
[30:07.710 --> 30:11.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: a single mistake that any of us could have made.
[30:13.000 --> 30:16.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think the only thing that he's really paying for is the fact that he's so damn smart.
[30:17.480 --> 30:18.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And people are afraid of that.
[30:18.740 --> 30:20.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: People resent that so much.
[30:20.500 --> 30:28.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've, you know, I haven't experienced it that much personally, but I've seen it happen so many times to people that are just...
[30:28.240 --> 30:29.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, think...
[30:29.580 --> 30:30.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: You ever watch the show Big Bang Theory?
[30:31.040 --> 30:31.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sheldon Cooper.
[30:31.700 --> 30:36.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's who I think of when I think of Virgil sometimes because he's awkward at expressing himself.
[30:37.480 --> 30:45.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he often does things that aren't always the best thing to do, but has not a bad bone in his body.
[30:45.900 --> 30:48.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, he would never hurt somebody.
[30:48.140 --> 30:50.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: He would never lie about anything.
[30:50.800 --> 30:54.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: But he's obsessed with finding out how something works.
[30:54.640 --> 31:01.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that simple thing really annoys people, especially people in control.
[31:01.960 --> 31:03.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't like that.
[31:03.520 --> 31:09.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And sometimes they really come down hard on people who have those traits.
[31:10.150 --> 31:11.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: And sometimes they're afflictions.
[31:12.220 --> 31:14.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: He can't turn it off, you know?
[31:15.320 --> 31:18.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just who he is, who a lot of us are.
[31:20.810 --> 31:31.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you think that you're protected in some way, you're only protected until you make a mistake that somebody takes in a particularly bad way.
[31:31.380 --> 31:34.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you're not able to really explain it to their satisfaction.
[31:36.430 --> 31:45.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's just so frustrating to be able to witness this and see it from the sidelines and be helpless to do anything.
[31:48.000 --> 31:50.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll let you chime in, Alex.
[31:51.360 --> 31:52.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sure.
[31:52.600 --> 31:56.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think you covered a lot of ground there.
[31:56.480 --> 32:12.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: And as you mentioned, I'm somewhat restricted in what I can say and would prefer to just stick to the facts of what happened and what's in the public filings because relatively recently, I was also helping with Virgil's defense.
[32:12.760 --> 32:23.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was not part of the trial team that was appearing in court, but we were assisting the defense team on certain discreet issues that were going to arise in the trial.
[32:25.070 --> 32:30.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was there on Monday when all this happened in court.
[32:31.410 --> 32:33.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was very tough.
[32:34.040 --> 32:35.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was very trying.
[32:35.160 --> 32:57.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was emotional and more emotional because Virgil's parents were there sitting in the front row of the gallery and watching this whole thing unfold and to see Virgil there and to have him see him brought out and then go back to the place from whence he came,
[32:57.400 --> 33:06.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: which is the Metropolitan Correction Center, a veritable hellhole that is being closed down for mismanagement.
[33:07.690 --> 33:12.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: It is the very same place where Jeffrey Epstein was being held and where he hanged himself.
[33:12.900 --> 33:14.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's not a nice place.
[33:15.060 --> 33:17.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where Virgil is right now.
[33:18.450 --> 33:22.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so what happened is there was a guilty plea.
[33:24.600 --> 33:27.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Virgil had pleaded guilty to this charge.
[33:28.300 --> 33:30.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it shocked a lot of people that were there.
[33:30.860 --> 33:35.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: There were a lot of people in the gallery that had showed up to support Virgil, a lot of members of the media.
[33:35.740 --> 33:38.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody expected the guilty plea to happen.
[33:38.580 --> 33:41.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone expected a trial to happen on Monday.
[33:41.420 --> 33:45.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so when this plea came forth, everyone was a bit shocked.
[33:46.840 --> 33:53.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the agreement with the prosecution, this is all stuff that's in the record, was drafted the day before.
[33:54.900 --> 34:06.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the sentencing range here that was agreed for Virgil between the prosecution and the defense was for between 63 and 78 months.
[34:06.680 --> 34:08.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a long time.
[34:08.000 --> 34:12.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a little over six years and possibly up to seven and a half.
[34:12.720 --> 34:28.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the judge made very clear that even though that is the range that the prosecution has agreed to recommend, it's up to the judge to determine whether or not he extends that sentence upwards.
[34:28.780 --> 34:32.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the maximum penalty here is 20 years in prison.
[34:34.080 --> 34:39.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's a very, very long time for somebody who is 38 years old.
[34:41.460 --> 34:47.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: What will happen next is Virgil will be sentenced on the 18th of January.
[34:48.060 --> 34:57.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And prior to that, there's going to be a pre-sentencing investigation and there'll be a memorandum that can be submitted in support of Virgil.
[34:57.900 --> 35:04.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And his current trial lawyers, I'm sure, will be coordinating that effort.
[35:04.240 --> 35:20.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully, members of the community or people who know him will have a chance to chime in and talk about his character and the type of person he is and why the court should be lenient on him and why he's a valued member of society that still has a lot to give.
[35:20.440 --> 35:24.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot to give back to the world and can do a lot.
[35:24.520 --> 35:28.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, this whole thing, it really hit me in the gut.
[35:29.340 --> 35:31.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very sad to me.
[35:31.340 --> 35:33.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've visited with Virgil a couple of times.
[35:34.740 --> 35:40.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: First, when he was in Essex County being held after the bail was revoked.
[35:40.000 --> 35:49.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And to go back to that, Emmanuel, I'm not sure if his current lawyers had actually asked Virgil to access the cryptocurrency account.
[35:50.020 --> 35:52.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: But they had...
[35:54.520 --> 35:57.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's from where they were being paid, I believe.
[35:57.300 --> 36:09.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Virgil had tried to use the same methodology that he was using to work, which was to have his mother or another family member access that account because he was prevented from using a computer as a condition of the bail.
[36:09.060 --> 36:14.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, these are very draconian types of conditions.
[36:14.430 --> 36:15.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not sure how else you would do that.
[36:16.000 --> 36:24.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: How else would you be able to get funds to your lawyers other than have somebody access the account that you're not allowed to touch yourself?
[36:25.300 --> 36:27.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: It really doesn't make much sense to me.
[36:27.780 --> 36:32.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: It just seems like they were very, very harsh on him for a minor transgression.
[36:33.680 --> 36:34.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[36:34.350 --> 36:41.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the lawyers, his current trial lawyers, I was retained after this whole thing had happened.
[36:41.720 --> 36:43.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, and like I said, very recently.
[36:44.700 --> 36:53.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the, you know, they had even said, you know, well, look, you know, this was the methodology that was used to, you know, for Virgil to continue to work.
[36:53.950 --> 37:03.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, it probably should, look, they should have gone to the court or Virgil should have insisted on them going to the court.
[37:03.370 --> 37:06.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: The court should have been involved in one way or the other at that point.
[37:06.370 --> 37:13.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think, you know, his lawyers had even said, look, and submitted a letter in support saying, please don't ding Virgil for this.
[37:14.460 --> 37:16.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, but this is a tough judge.
[37:16.450 --> 37:17.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Judge Castel.
[37:17.640 --> 37:20.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've had a couple other matters before him as well.
[37:20.280 --> 37:21.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's no nonsense.
[37:21.760 --> 37:30.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think this bail revocation was sending a message to Virgil in as much as it was sending a message to every other criminal defendant who was out on bail before Judge Castel.
[37:31.450 --> 37:33.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you don't, you don't play around with these things.
[37:33.620 --> 37:34.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I get that.
[37:34.410 --> 37:35.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: I respect that.
[37:35.260 --> 37:38.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: But at some point you have to realize this is a human being.
[37:38.620 --> 37:41.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, is this right?
[37:41.720 --> 37:49.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is this right for this to happen based on, I mean, think of, think of the worst thing, or not even the second worst thing you've done in your life.
[37:49.180 --> 37:53.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I was prosecuted back in the 80s for computer hacking.
[37:54.520 --> 37:56.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it could have gone a different way.
[37:56.200 --> 37:58.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: It could have gone a completely different way.
[37:58.000 --> 38:07.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, you know, was talking to the FBI and talking to prosecutors and talking to lawyers and judges and all that kind of thing.
[38:07.890 --> 38:11.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, they were telling me, yeah, you could, you could get 55 years in jail.
[38:12.160 --> 38:16.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just, at the time, it just seems so absurd.
[38:16.280 --> 38:17.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it was absurd.
[38:18.040 --> 38:21.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the difference was that I laughed at it then saying this will never happen.
[38:22.390 --> 38:28.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, fortunately, I lived in a world at the time where it didn't happen, where they agreed, yeah, that's absurd.
[38:28.320 --> 38:36.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: And let's just do this and pay for the computer time you used and stay on probation for a certain amount of time.
[38:36.410 --> 38:37.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then we'll wipe your record after that.
[38:38.160 --> 38:39.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you know what?
[38:39.240 --> 38:43.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: I never did anything of that sort again.
[38:43.760 --> 38:48.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I turned into something that many people would say is a benefit.
[38:48.620 --> 38:58.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Some people might actually think that, you know, doing the magazine and the radio and the conferences and whatever else is positive for the community and has helped.
[38:59.120 --> 39:01.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, imagine if it had gone a different way.
[39:01.300 --> 39:02.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: And just think of, think of something.
[39:02.660 --> 39:07.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know you got in trouble in the library once for going to a website you weren't supposed to go to or something.
[39:07.540 --> 39:18.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, if they really pull out all the stops and come after you and portray you in the most negative way possible, that changes who you are.
[39:18.280 --> 39:20.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: It changes everything.
[39:20.930 --> 39:25.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you're going to do that to somebody, you have to ask yourself, why?
[39:25.780 --> 39:28.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is there a reason why this is necessary?
[39:28.870 --> 39:29.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know?
[39:29.660 --> 39:30.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because everybody makes mistakes.
[39:31.000 --> 39:34.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Everybody does something that they shouldn't have done.
[39:35.560 --> 39:40.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't believe Virgil ever ran afoul of the law in any way.
[39:41.100 --> 39:49.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: And at some point you have to let your humanity kick in and say, okay, why, you know, why are we doing this exactly?
[39:49.390 --> 39:50.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is our end game?
[39:51.160 --> 39:52.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I have yet to hear a good answer.
[39:55.040 --> 39:57.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wish I had an answer for it.
[39:57.520 --> 39:58.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't.
[39:58.390 --> 40:00.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to speculate about it.
[40:00.140 --> 40:03.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think, you know, right now Virgil's in a very vulnerable position as well.
[40:03.280 --> 40:05.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think he's he's yet to be sentenced.
[40:06.100 --> 40:08.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's he has a very tough judge.
[40:09.100 --> 40:14.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Judge Castel, I think, look, Judge Castel's also a very fair person as well.
[40:14.890 --> 40:15.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[40:15.350 --> 40:22.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that, you know, Virgil pleading guilty to this charge is going to make a measurable difference as well.
[40:22.850 --> 40:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And don't forget some of the facts that you mentioned as well, Manuel, you know, that he had voluntarily gone not only to the FBI, but he also voluntarily went to the State Department in Singapore after he returned from Pyongyang and discussed his visit and what had happened.
[40:40.720 --> 40:43.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he didn't make a secret of any of this.
[40:44.460 --> 40:46.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: But he's in a very vulnerable state.
[40:46.320 --> 40:49.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that he needs support.
[40:50.140 --> 40:50.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: He needs encouragement.
[40:50.910 --> 41:05.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: He needs people to tell him that they still believe in him, that opinions haven't changed and that he still has some worth to society because this is a very difficult thing right now, I think, for him to process.
[41:06.020 --> 41:25.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so I hope that in nature there will be the opportunity for people to reach out, to interact with the defense and to submit some kind of character statement assessment, something that can hopefully influence the sentencing memorandum and the sentence itself for the better.
[41:26.520 --> 41:36.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's an incredibly tragic and sad situation right now and I think you hit it on the head Emmanuel when you said this is a guy who should be lecturing at Stanford.
[41:37.480 --> 41:40.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would say go even a rung higher than that.
[41:41.160 --> 41:43.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Virgil has a PhD from Caltech.
[41:44.390 --> 41:46.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean Caltech.
[41:46.850 --> 41:54.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't get more selective or difficult when it comes to engineering and computer science than Caltech.
[41:55.220 --> 41:57.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is where he has a doctorate from.
[41:57.620 --> 42:23.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean this is a guy who has tremendous worth to society and I hope that we can all rally around him that our opinions of him aren't sullied by this and I know that he is very contrite and he's very concerned and of course he's very worried about his future and his fate especially being in a place like the Metropolitan Correctional Center.
[42:24.140 --> 42:55.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not nice and hopefully and again this is something that had come out during the course of the guilty plea on Monday was that Judge Castel did agree to recommend that Virgil would be sent back to the Essex County Correctional Facility which is just outside the city limits of Newark New Jersey as opposed to the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn and that would be a very good thing
[42:55.910 --> 43:06.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: because Virgil was in the Essex County Correctional Facility that was where I actually first met with him and it's a much Much nicer place.
[43:06.260 --> 43:15.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think his psychological well-being would be well-served to be back in Essex as opposed to the Metropolitan Detention Center.
[43:15.390 --> 43:21.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, is it a good idea to share what we heard happened where he is now over the past couple of days?
[43:21.800 --> 43:25.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or should we just let that to the imagination of the listeners?
[43:26.580 --> 43:30.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I wouldn't share...
[43:30.430 --> 43:31.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, it's just not a nice place.
[43:31.850 --> 43:32.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's put it that way.
[43:32.600 --> 43:33.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not a nice place.
[43:33.720 --> 43:37.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wrote an article, I think, in the Times this week.
[43:37.450 --> 43:41.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's basically said both of those places, they're trying to get people away from them.
[43:41.980 --> 43:49.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Both the MCC and the MDC are... I think MCC is slated to be closed or is closed and they've removed people from it.
[43:49.180 --> 43:52.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: For the benefit of listeners, Alex, what's the difference between the MCC and the MDC?
[43:54.220 --> 44:02.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: The MCC, the Metropolitan Correctional Center, is located in downtown Manhattan.
[44:02.040 --> 44:08.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just right around the corner from the federal district court, the Southern District of New York.
[44:08.440 --> 44:16.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so prisoners are held there if they are about to go to trial in the Southern District of New York.
[44:16.700 --> 44:22.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so it has been well known, and you can look it up.
[44:22.260 --> 44:27.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's plenty of stories about the horrible conditions there, how it's being mismanaged.
[44:27.980 --> 44:34.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And relatively recently, while Virgil was transferred there, it was slated to be closed down.
[44:34.720 --> 44:42.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so only inmates that were imminently about to go to trial, of which Virgil was one, were still being held in the MCC.
[44:42.360 --> 44:52.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: The MDC, on the other hand, is another federal holding facility for people who have yet to be sentenced, and that's located in Brooklyn.
[44:52.120 --> 44:53.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I believe it's over in Red Hook.
[44:54.100 --> 45:02.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: And also not a nice place, and it is housing a lot more inmates, prisoners, than it was before.
[45:02.420 --> 45:10.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, I think, in large part because most of the inmates from the MCC were moved recently over to the MDC.
[45:11.940 --> 45:16.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Essence County Correctional Facility is right outside Newark.
[45:16.460 --> 45:20.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's actually easier to get to than the MDC, frankly.
[45:20.760 --> 45:27.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's also known to have a lot of federal inmates as well, people that are awaiting trial.
[45:27.880 --> 45:42.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: So hopefully, with the recommendation of Judge Castel, and I do see that as an act of mercy towards Virgil, well, hopefully, based on that recommendation, he will be sent over to the Essex County Correctional Facility in short order.
[45:45.700 --> 45:46.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: So much.
[45:46.600 --> 45:47.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: So much to take in.
[45:47.440 --> 45:53.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's terrible, I know, to even be talking about this and speculating about where he's going to be sent.
[45:53.600 --> 45:54.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: It breaks my heart.
[45:54.500 --> 45:59.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And these facilities, I mean, they're an entire other topic of discussion.
[45:59.140 --> 46:11.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're getting a lot of scrutiny about management and the kinds of conditions people have been in there when there's no power heating and, of course, pests and other things.
[46:11.320 --> 46:15.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's some strong interest in oversight.
[46:15.780 --> 46:32.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's a group of defenders for justice, or there are defense attorneys that have been fighting for cleaning those places up and getting things under a little bit more control and getting some of the conditions amended.
[46:35.680 --> 46:36.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[46:36.160 --> 46:40.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: So many places, so many things to keep in mind.
[46:41.000 --> 46:46.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just so much because it's opposing worlds here.
[46:46.500 --> 46:54.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: You have somebody like Virgil who is used to being in academia, and now all of a sudden he's in this different environment.
[46:55.620 --> 46:57.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like an episode of The Wire.
[46:57.020 --> 47:02.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: One institution merged into another institution, but he should not be there.
[47:02.220 --> 47:03.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: He should not be there in any sense.
[47:04.340 --> 47:11.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we hopefully will not forget, and we'll keep fighting and get the word out.
[47:11.480 --> 47:17.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I really hope justice prevails, because I do believe justice exists.
[47:17.720 --> 47:19.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you have to fight for it.
[47:20.180 --> 47:23.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, you have to not back down.
[47:24.580 --> 47:30.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I know that this particular case hasn't gotten that much in the way of publicity.
[47:30.740 --> 47:35.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think part of that is because people don't want to say the wrong thing.
[47:35.280 --> 47:51.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't want it to be misinterpreted and make him seem somehow like these portrayals of the prosecution are accurate and that he's some kind of criminal mastermind, which I can assure you he is so far away from.
[47:52.680 --> 48:05.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I think maybe we're at the stage now where it's going to have to become more of a public issue where people are basically spreading the word like we've done in the past.
[48:06.500 --> 48:09.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because this kind of thing, it's a tragedy.
[48:09.800 --> 48:13.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a tragedy we're watching unfold before our eyes.
[48:13.680 --> 48:22.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't know if there are websites or fundraisers or anything that can benefit that we can spread tonight.
[48:22.500 --> 48:25.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: If not, we will certainly spread them in weeks to come.
[48:27.300 --> 48:34.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, as of now, because everything was about to go to trial, those things don't exist.
[48:35.640 --> 48:40.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so I think over the next few weeks, hopefully things will change.
[48:40.500 --> 48:45.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, if there is any kind of fundraiser, petition, something like that.
[48:47.100 --> 48:56.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, there should be an opportunity to submit some kind of letter of support.
[48:56.940 --> 49:00.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this could come from people who are friends with Virgil.
[49:00.220 --> 49:03.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: It could come from people who are teachers, colleagues, peers.
[49:04.520 --> 49:05.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: A letter?
[49:05.840 --> 49:07.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going to have trouble keeping it to a book.
[49:08.360 --> 49:11.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Seriously, there's so much to say here.
[49:11.480 --> 49:13.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: But again, this has to be coordinated.
[49:13.380 --> 49:14.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not coordinating this.
[49:14.840 --> 49:18.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, I was only engaged on discrete issues.
[49:19.140 --> 49:23.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I just want to, on behalf of everybody, I want to thank you for getting involved, for taking an interest.
[49:23.700 --> 49:27.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because it would be very easy for you to say, too busy, got so many other things on my plate.
[49:27.600 --> 49:31.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you stepped up and you really made a difference, I think.
[49:31.220 --> 49:37.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I want to think that it's helping Virgil emotionally to know you're there on his side.
[49:37.600 --> 49:41.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think you'll get nuances that others would miss.
[49:42.320 --> 49:43.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, again, thank you for that.
[49:43.600 --> 49:44.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope so.
[49:44.160 --> 49:44.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope so.
[49:44.680 --> 49:55.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I do have to say, you know, my colleagues and my new firm that I joined in July was incredibly supportive and really bent over backwards to help Virgil, several of my colleagues.
[49:56.140 --> 50:02.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, more than several, I would say, you know, there's at least five of us that really took an interest in this case.
[50:02.780 --> 50:10.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's so much more I could say, but obviously I'm bound by attorney-client privilege.
[50:11.060 --> 50:13.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I have to respect that confidence.
[50:14.300 --> 50:14.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course.
[50:15.340 --> 50:15.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Forever.
[50:16.480 --> 50:16.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kyle.
[50:17.040 --> 50:27.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just really hopeful that some of the work you've done and others in our telling of his stories will put this story and this case in perspective.
[50:29.380 --> 50:36.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I'm asking, as we've talked about it, as he has recounted, I ask myself, you know, what has been fixed here?
[50:37.340 --> 50:42.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, what is, is this, is, are we better off?
[50:42.420 --> 51:05.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And as a result, and I, I don't, as I'm hearing about his, um, evangelizing and, um, uh, advocacy for, uh, digital currencies, um, I just hear him, um, doing what he was really passionate about and sharing and, um, and then sharing about it to the point of like debriefing,
[51:05.700 --> 51:09.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: uh, uh, uh, uh, people, uh, with the government.
[51:09.100 --> 51:19.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, he was very open, very honest, and I really hope that we put in perspective that, you know, the kinds of questions that were being asked at that conference, we don't really know what those are, you know, going forward.
[51:19.900 --> 51:27.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: If, if we're not, um, exploring, communicating, and being, uh, diplomatic in some way.
[51:27.320 --> 51:45.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm asking myself, you know, are we better off in, um, knowing how, um, different places in the worlds are using these things, how, um, it could help solve other crimes and, and, and, uh, uh, and answer some of the questions that I think we're a little bit more blind to by not having,
[51:45.520 --> 51:50.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: uh, his advocacy and, and interest and, um, uh, freedom.
[51:50.840 --> 51:51.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[51:51.480 --> 52:05.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: And to add onto that a little bit, um, the whole cryptocurrency thing, I see the same reaction towards cryptocurrency as I, as I'm seeing here, where people don't know how to deal with it, people in charge, especially, and there's this hostility towards it.
[52:05.260 --> 52:06.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I, I understand it.
[52:06.580 --> 52:09.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I get it because it kind of throws everything into disarray.
[52:09.760 --> 52:13.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but, um, uh, you know, it wasn't Virgil's idea.
[52:13.840 --> 52:18.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: It basically, uh, he's trying to make sense of it as well and explain it to people.
[52:18.880 --> 52:23.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and, and especially people here to help design things that are better.
[52:23.580 --> 52:43.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I know when, when there's something new that, um, nobody gets, nobody quite understands, and that it potentially has, uh, the, the threat of, um, of, of upending what you're used to, you would react to anybody with some kind of limited knowledge about that particular new system.
[52:43.400 --> 52:46.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: You'd react with resistance or hostility.
[52:46.840 --> 52:50.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Try telling a system administrator about a problem with their system.
[52:50.220 --> 52:55.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: You get the same basic reaction, like you're the problem, not the, the actual problem that you're trying to report.
[52:55.900 --> 53:05.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think that's what we're seeing here is that age old hostility towards people saying the emperor has no clothes or, or that something is needs fixing.
[53:06.520 --> 53:11.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, I just don't want to forget that, um, there's a human life here.
[53:11.760 --> 53:16.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a valuable human life that we need to not forget about.
[53:16.060 --> 53:19.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I've basically spent the entire hour talking about this.
[53:19.460 --> 53:20.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't mean to do that.
[53:20.880 --> 53:27.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I am so sorry to everybody, but at the same time, I'm not sorry because this certainly deserves an hour.
[53:27.820 --> 53:28.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: It serves a lot more time.
[53:29.420 --> 53:39.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we do have other topics and we'll try to get to them on overtime, uh, which you can join us, uh, and call us too, but we won't be able to say much about this case.
[53:39.240 --> 53:47.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Obviously, um, youtube.com/Channel2600 is, um, the address to, uh, to click on.
[53:47.640 --> 53:55.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or you can go to 2600.com and, um, and, um, just click on the link at the top of the page.
[53:56.460 --> 53:57.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see you next week.
[53:58.520 --> 53:59.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good night, everybody.
[54:01.300 --> 54:28.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Today's the day our younger son Is going off to war Fighting in the age-old battle We sometimes won before The flags in line, oh, Main Street Are blowing in the wind These must be the flags of freedom fly
[54:31.720 --> 55:15.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Church bells are ringing The families stand in way Some of them are crying Cause the soldiers look so brave Looking straight ahead Like they know just where they're going Past the flags of freedom flying The sister has her headphones on She hears the music blasting She sees her brother marching Watching by their bond is everlasting.
[55:16.480 --> 55:22.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Listening to Bob Dylan singing in 1963.
[55:24.500 --> 55:28.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Watching the flags of freedom fly.
[55:31.040 --> 55:38.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: She sees the president speaking on the black screen TV.
[55:38.800 --> 55:43.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: In the window of the old client's door.
[55:46.410 --> 55:50.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: She turns to see her brother again.
[55:50.950 --> 55:53.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: But is already walking past.
[56:01.540 --> 56:04.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Have you seen the flags of freedom?
[56:05.300 --> 56:08.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: What color are they now?
[56:09.060 --> 56:15.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you think that you'll believe in yours more than they do there somehow?
[56:16.660 --> 56:19.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you see the flags of freedom?
[56:19.660 --> 56:20.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm flying.
[56:54.240 --> 57:00.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Today's the day our younger son is going off to war.
[57:01.680 --> 57:04.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Fighting the H.O.
[57:04.140 --> 57:08.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: battle we sometimes won before.
[57:09.460 --> 57:15.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Flags that lie on Main Street are blowing in the wind.
[57:16.720 --> 57:21.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: These must be the flags of freedom fly.
[57:32.650 --> 57:34.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: Time passed.
[57:34.270 --> 57:37.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: Many romantic feelings were associated with radio broadcasting.
[57:38.470 --> 57:39.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: As with aviation.
[57:40.630 --> 57:43.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: With motoring across the far western United States.
[57:43.710 --> 57:50.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Fifty years ago, a young genius made a classic that could never be retold.
[57:50.830 --> 57:53.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, it must be told again.
[57:54.470 --> 57:57.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is Peter Bergman, all mixed up.
[57:57.910 --> 58:06.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I am all mixed up, but not so confused, not so habitually bewildered, that I don't listen to WBAI when I come to town, to Gotham.
[58:06.850 --> 58:09.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: I love New York, and I love WBAI.
[58:09.870 --> 58:11.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: You're doomed to high five.
[58:12.230 --> 58:19.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: And here we are for Off The Hook Overtime, where we hope that we're on YouTube.
[58:19.230 --> 58:21.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: We don't have Rob here this week, who tells us.
[58:21.670 --> 58:24.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's one of his jobs is to tell us that we're actually on YouTube.
[58:24.070 --> 58:26.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I think we'll find out in short order if we're not.
[58:26.730 --> 58:27.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Somebody will tell us.
[58:29.050 --> 58:30.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, that was a tough hour.
[58:32.490 --> 58:34.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can't believe it went by so fast.
[58:34.190 --> 58:41.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I feel like we said things that needed to be said, and I'm happy that you guys are here to share that.
[58:44.050 --> 58:44.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot to talk about.
[58:45.550 --> 58:46.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sorry, go ahead, Kyle.
[58:47.290 --> 58:49.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't switch your microphone off and that won't happen.
[58:50.410 --> 58:51.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's just a lot to talk about.
[58:51.990 --> 58:52.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is, yes.
[58:52.490 --> 58:56.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't even... I don't know how to really characterize it or sum up.
[58:56.130 --> 58:59.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of other things I was thinking and asking myself.
[58:59.530 --> 59:04.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, you know, what sanctions were being violated by North Korea before this?
[59:04.390 --> 59:07.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: What will be violated now and what after?
[59:08.030 --> 59:09.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, any less or any more.
[59:09.550 --> 59:11.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just don't feel like, you know, we've fixed things.
[59:11.970 --> 59:13.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's kind of what I was going with.
[59:13.050 --> 59:14.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't want to get into the particulars too much.
[59:14.310 --> 59:20.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: But suffice to say that anything that Virgil shared with them, they already knew.
[59:20.470 --> 59:22.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, they being the country in general.
[59:22.830 --> 59:27.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because not everybody in North Korea is an automatron that is, you know, basically a bored collective.
[59:28.710 --> 59:35.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe somebody in a room actually didn't know something that somebody else in the next room did know and was just curious.
[59:36.170 --> 59:37.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's really innocuous.
[59:37.810 --> 59:41.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's really nothing major, nothing you could not find on the Internet.
[59:41.650 --> 59:44.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: But when you say it out loud, it can sound bad.
[59:44.310 --> 59:51.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: It can sound as if you're up to something much more nefarious than simply having a conversation.
[59:51.430 --> 59:54.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when you're in North Korea, it's a good idea to have conversations.
[59:54.710 --> 59:55.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: You don't want to be antisocial.
[59:55.790 --> 59:56.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't like that.
[59:57.270 --> 59:59.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you see what they do to people they don't like.
[59:59.730 --> 01:00:00.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what I was worried about.
[01:00:01.070 --> 01:00:03.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what I have trouble with the most.
[01:00:03.650 --> 01:00:06.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: And just I feel like it isn't in perspective.
[01:00:07.170 --> 01:00:11.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, we are worse off, I think, as a nation in some ways.
[01:00:12.010 --> 01:00:19.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think his situation is much worse off in light of the recent news.
[01:00:19.430 --> 01:00:42.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the rest of the other places that are taking on digital currency, that are using it for good, they miss out on learning and hearing more about how they can use it and, you know, change their circumstances in unstable places and so forth.
[01:00:42.050 --> 01:00:49.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I just really feel like the mission and the good intentions are really lost.
[01:00:49.130 --> 01:00:54.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's important to remember in thinking about it going forward.
[01:00:54.330 --> 01:01:04.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: It makes me think, when you say that, if he had basically had the same conversation 100 miles away, how far is Pyongyang from the border, 200 miles away, it wouldn't be an issue at all.
[01:01:04.910 --> 01:01:06.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Would not even be noticed.
[01:01:07.230 --> 01:01:09.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because, of course, everybody knows these things already.
[01:01:10.670 --> 01:01:17.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, you know, obviously, he made a mistake by going there in the first place.
[01:01:17.270 --> 01:01:18.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he has acknowledged that.
[01:01:20.390 --> 01:01:22.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I just hope we put things in perspective.
[01:01:22.510 --> 01:01:22.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: I really do.
[01:01:23.090 --> 01:01:26.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you, Junis, by the way, for confirming that we are, in fact, on YouTube.
[01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:28.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's always good to know.
[01:01:29.850 --> 01:01:34.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alex, did you want to add anything else before we open up to phone lines and maybe read some other stories?
[01:01:35.090 --> 01:01:35.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sure.
[01:01:36.710 --> 01:01:45.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: One thing, and again, I don't want to speculate about the charges, but I will stick to the facts and the pleadings in this case.
[01:01:45.650 --> 01:01:54.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you mentioned something that was interesting, Emmanuel, which was, you know, whether Virgil had helped North Korea in any way or given them some kind of knowledge.
[01:01:54.870 --> 01:01:59.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what's very interesting about this, and you can go back to some of the filings in this case.
[01:01:59.530 --> 01:02:02.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll point, you know, directly to the government's motion in Limonet.
[01:02:03.570 --> 01:02:10.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the government had, in that motion, had referenced the stipulation that they made with the defense.
[01:02:11.110 --> 01:02:12.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was a very important stipulation.
[01:02:13.970 --> 01:02:22.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: A stipulation is essentially an agreement as to a particular fact, right, so that you don't have to prove that fact at trial.
[01:02:22.990 --> 01:02:26.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's not contested in a similar way.
[01:02:26.830 --> 01:02:29.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can both stipulate to a certain fact.
[01:02:29.310 --> 01:02:34.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the fact that was stipulated to by the government and by the defense was this.
[01:02:35.270 --> 01:02:45.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: That Virgil's presentation in North Korea didn't benefit the government of North Korea by giving them any information that they didn't already know.
[01:02:46.470 --> 01:02:54.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know, in my untrained mind, I asked the question, then what is this all about?
[01:02:54.710 --> 01:03:02.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: If he didn't say anything that benefited them in any way, is it just about going there without permission?
[01:03:02.690 --> 01:03:03.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that what this is?
[01:03:03.650 --> 01:03:25.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, the hair that was being split was for, you know, it wasn't to the benefit of North Korea, but the government did claim that what Virgil said could have benefited certain members of the audience that were North Koreans over there and therefore could have,
[01:03:25.670 --> 01:03:30.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: you know, and you got to remember, too, it was a conspiracy charge, too.
[01:03:30.830 --> 01:03:38.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it wasn't, you know, to actually have violated the sanctions, it was a conspiracy to violate the sanctions, is the charge to what he pleaded.
[01:03:39.070 --> 01:03:43.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, hang on, if it's a conspiracy, there are other conspirators, and who are those other conspirators?
[01:03:44.810 --> 01:03:45.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[01:03:45.670 --> 01:03:46.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have they been charged?
[01:03:46.530 --> 01:03:53.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: These other conspirators were, they're named in, there were CCs, co-conspirators one through six in the pleadings.
[01:03:53.590 --> 01:03:56.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Their names and identities are not known to the public.
[01:03:57.250 --> 01:03:59.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, but I assume they're known to the government.
[01:03:59.330 --> 01:04:07.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are they being charged with something, too, or are they simply being ignored because they're only after this one person?
[01:04:08.790 --> 01:04:10.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: As far as I know, nobody else is charged.
[01:04:11.210 --> 01:04:12.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me.
[01:04:12.470 --> 01:04:13.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: But again, untrained.
[01:04:14.250 --> 01:04:15.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know the legal...
[01:04:15.690 --> 01:04:17.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's certain things I can't talk about.
[01:04:17.630 --> 01:04:17.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course.
[01:04:18.090 --> 01:04:20.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, and, you know, I got to respect those parameters.
[01:04:20.670 --> 01:04:28.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I think there's an important stipulation and something to keep in mind when assessing Virgil's character.
[01:04:28.870 --> 01:04:35.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that, you know, this wasn't about, you know, a major transfer of knowledge.
[01:04:35.290 --> 01:04:37.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the government stipulated that it wasn't.
[01:04:37.470 --> 01:04:47.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I very much hope that that stipulated fact, and the government agreed with that, will go a long way at sentencing as well.
[01:04:47.450 --> 01:04:48.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: I certainly hope so.
[01:04:48.810 --> 01:04:54.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it should factor into the severity of what we're talking about here.
[01:04:55.270 --> 01:05:00.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, you know, I'm not my usual gregarious self here.
[01:05:01.450 --> 01:05:03.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because there is a lot of parameters on it.
[01:05:03.750 --> 01:05:05.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And also, it's just...
[01:05:05.470 --> 01:05:06.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is...
[01:05:06.570 --> 01:05:07.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's difficult.
[01:05:07.710 --> 01:05:09.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's difficult to talk about this.
[01:05:09.150 --> 01:05:09.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course.
[01:05:09.630 --> 01:05:10.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's difficult for all of us.
[01:05:11.170 --> 01:05:13.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I can't even imagine what it's like for his family.
[01:05:14.190 --> 01:05:15.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And of course, for him.
[01:05:16.210 --> 01:05:27.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, you know, if the co-conspirators are ever known, I'll bet anything, these are academics.
[01:05:27.470 --> 01:05:39.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: These are people that you would talk to about theoretical things, about problem solving, about the sorts of things that Virgil was so impassioned about.
[01:05:40.490 --> 01:05:42.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: And nothing beyond that.
[01:05:42.650 --> 01:05:45.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not criminals, not people meeting in back alleys or anything like that.
[01:05:47.290 --> 01:05:48.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just intellectual challenge.
[01:05:49.970 --> 01:05:55.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have a phone call, but I just want to get to another story just for a brief moment, just so I can say I've read more than one story tonight.
[01:05:58.130 --> 01:06:00.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: China is announcing a complete ban on cryptocurrency.
[01:06:00.990 --> 01:06:04.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know, it's not just the United States that is in a panic.
[01:06:04.290 --> 01:06:05.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's also China.
[01:06:05.670 --> 01:06:18.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: According to a notice published on the central bank's website, it will be illegal for Chinese residents to purchase cryptocurrencies from overseas and even be involved in marketing or technical support related to crypto businesses.
[01:06:19.010 --> 01:06:24.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know, the kind of thing that's happening to Virgil right now, it's the kind of thing I would expect in China.
[01:06:25.070 --> 01:06:32.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: I would expect somebody to be prosecuted for speaking, you know, at a conference, for saying something.
[01:06:32.570 --> 01:06:45.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if that were the case, I'll bet that our media would be covering it in a completely different way, saying, wow, look at that oppressive regime and how they're treating somebody who was just answering questions.
[01:06:46.790 --> 01:06:50.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I'm sure there are many instances we can point to over there.
[01:06:50.330 --> 01:06:56.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's just sad that this is lost on so many people.
[01:06:58.930 --> 01:06:59.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:07:00.010 --> 01:07:01.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Shall we take a phone call?
[01:07:01.570 --> 01:07:03.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, you know, we didn't give the phone number out.
[01:07:03.310 --> 01:07:05.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are they calling if we didn't give the phone number out?
[01:07:05.930 --> 01:07:07.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you want to start over?
[01:07:07.170 --> 01:07:07.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[01:07:08.030 --> 01:07:09.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't even listen.
[01:07:09.390 --> 01:07:09.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[01:07:09.750 --> 01:07:10.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: It might be a robot.
[01:07:10.630 --> 01:07:11.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: It could be a robot.
[01:07:11.510 --> 01:07:12.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: It could be Google spam.
[01:07:12.990 --> 01:07:13.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: It could be all sorts of things.
[01:07:14.610 --> 01:07:17.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I should give the phone number out for those people that...
[01:07:17.010 --> 01:07:18.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's around here somewhere.
[01:07:18.630 --> 01:07:19.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...are playing by the rules.
[01:07:20.730 --> 01:07:21.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's 802.
[01:07:22.990 --> 01:07:25.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then some more digits after that, I think.
[01:07:26.150 --> 01:07:27.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: 3, 2, 1.
[01:07:27.350 --> 01:07:27.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: 3, 2, 1.
[01:07:28.890 --> 01:07:29.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Liftoff.
[01:07:29.370 --> 01:07:30.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I'm sorry.
[01:07:31.430 --> 01:07:33.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: 802-321-4225.
[01:07:35.930 --> 01:07:37.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: 802-321-HACK.
[01:07:37.710 --> 01:07:40.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: 4225 spells out HACK if you have one of those phones with letters on them.
[01:07:40.910 --> 01:07:42.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do people still have those?
[01:07:43.130 --> 01:07:45.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: For some reason, I think our cell phones all have letters on them.
[01:07:46.630 --> 01:07:46.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:07:47.050 --> 01:07:51.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes when you get a keypad on the phone, I think it puts the letters...
[01:07:51.470 --> 01:07:51.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:07:52.050 --> 01:07:53.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a connection to the past.
[01:07:53.690 --> 01:07:53.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:07:54.050 --> 01:07:54.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's simulated.
[01:07:54.690 --> 01:07:55.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: See, they haven't gotten rid of that.
[01:07:56.070 --> 01:08:02.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're getting rid of the landlines, but they're not getting rid of the letters next to the numbers, you know, because they realize that that serves a purpose.
[01:08:02.410 --> 01:08:07.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, if only they could realize that for the landlines, I think we wouldn't be in such dire straits all the time.
[01:08:07.410 --> 01:08:09.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway, let's get to this phone call.
[01:08:09.570 --> 01:08:10.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:08:10.290 --> 01:08:11.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:08:11.970 --> 01:08:12.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[01:08:12.510 --> 01:08:13.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[01:08:13.510 --> 01:08:13.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hey, Rebel.
[01:08:14.090 --> 01:08:14.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[01:08:15.490 --> 01:08:16.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I was just...
[01:08:16.410 --> 01:08:18.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: You were talking about China banning cryptocurrency.
[01:08:18.510 --> 01:08:27.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't blame them because, you know, there's been a lot of scams, you know, like, you know, like people that say, you know, hack your website or whatever and say, you know, just send us cryptocurrency.
[01:08:28.170 --> 01:08:29.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I don't blame them for...
[01:08:29.670 --> 01:08:29.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:08:31.090 --> 01:08:40.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: But anyway, speaking of scams, I did a lot of emails like junk mail that comes into my trash box, not my inbox or my spam box.
[01:08:40.890 --> 01:08:46.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: It goes into my trash box and it's spam that they don't go...
[01:08:46.510 --> 01:08:50.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not user at gmail.com or yahoo.com.
[01:08:50.510 --> 01:08:54.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's user at aol.com and I don't have an account on AOL.
[01:08:54.290 --> 01:08:59.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: And when I go to my username, aol.com or it doesn't work, it sends it back.
[01:09:00.030 --> 01:09:06.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, how do they get the email to me when they say that it's at aol.com?
[01:09:06.730 --> 01:09:15.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, I like to say, I'll send a message to 2600 at, no, emmanuel at aol.com and it'll go to the 2600.com site.
[01:09:16.910 --> 01:09:19.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I'm not exactly sure what the issue is.
[01:09:19.750 --> 01:09:25.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're saying, um, you're, you're, you're getting mail to an AOL account that you don't have.
[01:09:27.570 --> 01:09:28.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[01:09:28.190 --> 01:09:28.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:09:28.570 --> 01:09:43.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, in other words, if I send a mail, an email to emmanuel at 2600.com, it'll go to you, but, but if I send it to emmanuel at aol.com, it'll go to you, but, you know, it'll say that you haven't...
[01:09:43.850 --> 01:09:45.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wait, it shouldn't go...
[01:09:45.230 --> 01:09:45.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, hold on a second.
[01:09:45.870 --> 01:09:46.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a couple of...
[01:09:46.450 --> 01:09:47.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, yeah, it may go to me.
[01:09:48.050 --> 01:09:48.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't mean I'm going to read it.
[01:09:49.270 --> 01:09:49.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:09:49.730 --> 01:09:51.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, um, it's possible.
[01:09:51.850 --> 01:10:09.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's possible that the, at aol.com is a leftover from Instant Messenger, AIM, which was, uh, America online that, that ran that, and they, they might have given out an address, uh, by default, and that might be what you're, what you're seeing here.
[01:10:10.050 --> 01:10:12.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but why is it going into the, the trash box?
[01:10:12.430 --> 01:10:14.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't go into my inbox or the spam.
[01:10:14.270 --> 01:10:16.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that could be, we're talking about Gmail, right?
[01:10:17.810 --> 01:10:18.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Gmail?
[01:10:18.470 --> 01:10:19.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's Gmail, yeah.
[01:10:19.470 --> 01:10:21.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, uh, sometimes Gmail...
[01:10:21.470 --> 01:10:22.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I don't, actually, you know what?
[01:10:22.610 --> 01:10:25.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have a Yahoo account and a Gmail account, and I don't know which it's...
[01:10:25.790 --> 01:10:33.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, whatever it is, it could be, it could be Yahoo, it could be, it could be Gmail, it could be, uh, uh, uh, what, what's that one?
[01:10:33.970 --> 01:10:34.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: MSN.
[01:10:34.570 --> 01:10:36.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, MSN or Hotmail, whatever.
[01:10:36.630 --> 01:10:43.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sometimes these companies, they, um, they have fights with other companies and they say, okay, from now on, all your mail is going to go into trash.
[01:10:43.990 --> 01:10:45.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it could be something like that.
[01:10:45.410 --> 01:10:53.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or it could be because it's coming from, um, uh, a particular address format that they don't like that's, that's associated with spam.
[01:10:53.870 --> 01:10:57.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, like, for instance, the default email address you get from your cable company.
[01:10:58.030 --> 01:11:01.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sometimes those are, are, um, attached to, uh, to, to spam.
[01:11:02.370 --> 01:11:03.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know, things like that.
[01:11:03.810 --> 01:11:04.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it's, it's possible.
[01:11:06.570 --> 01:11:06.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:11:07.950 --> 01:11:08.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[01:11:08.510 --> 01:11:14.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I, I do, uh, I do, I, but I, maybe, like, hide it, like, they'll, they'll say, to unsubscribe, click here.
[01:11:14.830 --> 01:11:34.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I click here, and they're expecting me to, to put my email address at, uh, you know, uh, Gmail.com or Yahoo.com, but when I look at who it's coming from, or going to, it says at AOL.com, and I put, uh, my address at, my name at, username at AOL.com.
[01:11:34.690 --> 01:11:36.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: So you know what, you know what I mean?
[01:11:36.190 --> 01:11:37.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I think so.
[01:11:37.190 --> 01:11:37.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think so.
[01:11:37.930 --> 01:11:40.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, but, you know, um, I don't know.
[01:11:40.970 --> 01:11:42.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I don't have a, a ready answer for it.
[01:11:42.450 --> 01:11:56.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: I do know that if you, um, uh, if you give out a particular on Gmail, if you, um, if you insert a period anywhere in your username, it doesn't do anything, you'll still get the mail, but if you give that address out to other people, then you'll, uh, you'll know who they,
[01:11:56.410 --> 01:11:59.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: who it is that gave your address to somebody else, if you keep track of it that way.
[01:12:00.190 --> 01:12:01.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, that's my handy tip for the day.
[01:12:03.310 --> 01:12:03.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:12:03.990 --> 01:12:04.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't, oh, okay.
[01:12:04.830 --> 01:12:07.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: So username dot app?
[01:12:08.490 --> 01:12:11.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's, let's, let's say your name is rebel at gmail.com.
[01:12:11.550 --> 01:12:16.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: And sorry for whoever rebel at gmail.com is, but you could do R period E B E L at gmail.com.
[01:12:18.070 --> 01:12:20.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: It would still go to rebel at gmail.com.
[01:12:21.010 --> 01:12:23.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then you could put a period anywhere or you could put multiple periods.
[01:12:23.890 --> 01:12:27.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: The periods aren't really part of the address, but they are able to be used.
[01:12:28.250 --> 01:12:28.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:12:28.870 --> 01:12:29.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hope that helps.
[01:12:30.690 --> 01:12:36.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, well, if the I'm inside operators and, you know, P phones and, and, um, you know, computer terminals.
[01:12:36.730 --> 01:12:40.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: And by the way, I have the whole, are you going to have a whole conference this summer?
[01:12:40.190 --> 01:12:40.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[01:12:40.710 --> 01:12:42.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, a live, like, I mean, a live in person.
[01:12:43.210 --> 01:12:45.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: We are having a new hope in July.
[01:12:45.110 --> 01:12:47.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the details are at hope.net.
[01:12:47.650 --> 01:12:52.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, they, we'll have more details in the weeks ahead, but we are, we are planning it.
[01:12:52.190 --> 01:12:52.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: 2600 meeting.
[01:12:53.310 --> 01:12:54.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, 2600 meeting.
[01:12:54.390 --> 01:13:08.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I forgot to mention that, uh, that they're coming up this, um, uh, this Friday in, uh, in the city, I believe outside at the atrium, third Avenue and 53rd street, I believe, uh, on the other side of second, uh, third Avenue.
[01:13:08.590 --> 01:13:11.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's not, cause they redid the, uh, the City Corp thing.
[01:13:12.070 --> 01:13:12.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:13:12.230 --> 01:13:13.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Did they ever open it again?
[01:13:13.570 --> 01:13:14.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it is open.
[01:13:14.750 --> 01:13:17.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's like restaurants and like a whole food thing.
[01:13:18.050 --> 01:13:20.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, we're half a block, we're half a block away now.
[01:13:20.630 --> 01:13:39.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And by the way, uh, if there are other meetings out there that are not listed currently at our meeting page, 2600.com/meetings, uh, write to us meetings at 2600.com or tweet at 2600 meetings, uh, and, uh, we'll be happy to get you listed for this coming Friday and for Fridays beyond that.
[01:13:40.650 --> 01:13:44.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, and you may want to, uh, meetings at AOL.com and it may still go to you.
[01:13:44.930 --> 01:13:45.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know about that.
[01:13:45.970 --> 01:13:48.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think that will go to us, but you're welcome to try.
[01:13:49.030 --> 01:13:50.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not, it's not going to be impressed.
[01:13:50.870 --> 01:13:52.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: So you can't go inside anymore.
[01:13:52.250 --> 01:13:52.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that it?
[01:13:52.910 --> 01:13:58.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'm not sure exactly, uh, uh, what the plan is, uh, but, but the meetings start outside.
[01:13:58.990 --> 01:14:00.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, we'll figure it out from there.
[01:14:00.630 --> 01:14:00.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:14:01.130 --> 01:14:01.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:14:02.450 --> 01:14:02.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:14:02.850 --> 01:14:10.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: And hopefully at the health conference in July or whenever you have it, you'll have computed like old, I know they have the retro computing.
[01:14:11.170 --> 01:14:14.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, that's, uh, up to people participating and making that happen.
[01:14:15.010 --> 01:14:16.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have every conference that will be the case.
[01:14:17.470 --> 01:14:20.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: I hope that they bring an old computer terminal.
[01:14:20.670 --> 01:14:20.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:14:21.010 --> 01:14:23.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, St. John's is a great place for this kind of thing.
[01:14:23.370 --> 01:14:25.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we're looking forward to, to using that space for the first time.
[01:14:26.590 --> 01:14:42.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, by the way, speaking of things, um, your radio station is, uh, not at the, okay, you used to be at one, when you were at 120 wall street and, and on 8th Avenue, you used to broadcast from the empire state building, but when you were on, but since you moved to Brooklyn,
[01:14:42.810 --> 01:14:45.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: you broadcast from the time square.
[01:14:45.590 --> 01:14:46.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why is that?
[01:14:46.070 --> 01:14:46.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, okay.
[01:14:46.730 --> 01:14:48.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, first of all, it has nothing to do with moving to Brooklyn.
[01:14:48.870 --> 01:14:56.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it has to do with, um, uh, the empire state building charging a huge amount of money and us not being able to afford to pay it.
[01:14:56.170 --> 01:15:01.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the, um, the time square location, uh, is, uh, is cheaper.
[01:15:01.950 --> 01:15:03.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it's a little bit lower.
[01:15:03.530 --> 01:15:08.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the signal doesn't go quite as far, but you should feel no difference in the New York metropolitan area.
[01:15:10.430 --> 01:15:10.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[01:15:11.470 --> 01:15:11.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: I see.
[01:15:12.290 --> 01:15:16.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, but when you were on time, when you were on wall street, you were still broadcasting from the empire state building.
[01:15:16.650 --> 01:15:17.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, that is true.
[01:15:18.790 --> 01:15:20.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: From 8th Avenue to wall street.
[01:15:20.250 --> 01:15:21.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was a different period.
[01:15:21.510 --> 01:15:22.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was a different time then Rebel.
[01:15:22.970 --> 01:15:23.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Totally different.
[01:15:23.810 --> 01:15:24.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[01:15:24.590 --> 01:15:24.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[01:15:24.850 --> 01:15:25.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know.
[01:15:25.130 --> 01:15:39.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: And cause I know like, and if you go out to like the other parts of the country, like the Midwest and all like small cities, like you'll see radio station, but the antennas will be these big, like maybe, I don't know how tall they are, 300 to 400 to 500 feet that you'll see going down the highway.
[01:15:39.410 --> 01:15:42.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you'll see them like lit up at night and you'll see how tall they are.
[01:15:42.810 --> 01:15:45.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Cause they have those, these big red lights and blinking and white lights.
[01:15:48.010 --> 01:15:48.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Interesting.
[01:15:50.630 --> 01:15:51.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:15:51.190 --> 01:15:53.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we, we're going to, uh, move on, but thanks.
[01:15:53.450 --> 01:15:54.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for your call.
[01:15:54.230 --> 01:15:54.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:15:55.270 --> 01:15:55.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: As always.
[01:15:56.750 --> 01:15:59.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, uh, Kyle, maybe you could share with us what's going on here.
[01:15:59.250 --> 01:16:04.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Cause you're having, you're having, you've been tearing apart the whole board trying, Alex, you can't hear the phone calls, right?
[01:16:07.570 --> 01:16:08.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's right.
[01:16:08.590 --> 01:16:09.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't hear.
[01:16:10.050 --> 01:16:11.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can hear me though, right?
[01:16:11.530 --> 01:16:13.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can hear you, but I couldn't hear Rebel.
[01:16:13.830 --> 01:16:15.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I could hear him very, very faintly.
[01:16:15.810 --> 01:16:22.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then I realized I was hearing him through your microphone because the sound was, I guess, bleeding out of your headphones.
[01:16:23.530 --> 01:16:24.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, he's a loud talker.
[01:16:24.850 --> 01:16:26.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: So maybe that's, that's what was happening.
[01:16:26.170 --> 01:16:26.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:16:26.870 --> 01:16:29.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, oh, are you sure you don't have a Rebel filter?
[01:16:30.090 --> 01:16:38.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Some, some people have that and, uh, that makes it hard to, um, yeah, it's part of, part of, uh, my web browser actually.
[01:16:38.590 --> 01:16:39.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a, the Rebel filter.
[01:16:40.370 --> 01:16:44.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but no, I could, could have heard what Rebel was saying.
[01:16:44.410 --> 01:16:45.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's always something interesting.
[01:16:45.850 --> 01:16:53.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: We let those third graders do a show on our board and they messed up the, the, the, Can you turn the level on that up and on what up on the phone?
[01:16:53.510 --> 01:16:55.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And Alex, do you hear a dial tone?
[01:16:55.530 --> 01:16:55.530]  Okay.
[01:16:55.610 --> 01:16:58.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, if I do that, uh, make sure the phone's off the hook.
[01:16:58.350 --> 01:16:59.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Otherwise we'll get a horrible noise.
[01:16:59.710 --> 01:17:01.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: So give me the signal and I'll, I'll bring it up.
[01:17:02.530 --> 01:17:02.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:17:03.090 --> 01:17:03.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:17:03.310 --> 01:17:04.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Haven't given me the signal yet.
[01:17:04.190 --> 01:17:04.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's off the hook.
[01:17:05.070 --> 01:17:05.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:17:06.210 --> 01:17:06.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hear not.
[01:17:06.890 --> 01:17:07.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't hear a dial tone.
[01:17:07.890 --> 01:17:08.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: It seems horrible.
[01:17:09.190 --> 01:17:09.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[01:17:10.230 --> 01:17:12.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, maybe because somebody was there, maybe that's why
[01:17:16.090 --> 01:17:17.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: should I, should I bring it up now?
[01:17:19.910 --> 01:17:20.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Kyle, you gotta give me an answer.
[01:17:21.250 --> 01:17:21.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes or no.
[01:17:21.730 --> 01:17:22.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Should I bring it up now?
[01:17:22.390 --> 01:17:23.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, no.
[01:17:23.250 --> 01:17:23.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:17:23.970 --> 01:17:29.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, well, Alex, I guess we could banter back and forth while, uh, we figure out what's, what's going on with the phone and why it no longer works.
[01:17:29.510 --> 01:17:29.510]  Yeah.
[01:17:30.110 --> 01:17:30.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Try it now.
[01:17:30.890 --> 01:17:31.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: You say, okay.
[01:17:31.910 --> 01:17:32.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:17:32.150 --> 01:17:32.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a dial tone.
[01:17:32.610 --> 01:17:33.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you hear the dial tone?
[01:17:33.410 --> 01:17:33.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hear it.
[01:17:33.870 --> 01:17:34.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hear it.
[01:17:34.410 --> 01:17:36.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you can hear dial tones, but just not Rebel.
[01:17:36.970 --> 01:17:38.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that, is that what I'm led to understand?
[01:17:39.210 --> 01:17:39.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's true.
[01:17:39.730 --> 01:17:42.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you hear the dial tone, there's no reason on earth you won't hear another caller.
[01:17:43.010 --> 01:17:43.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:17:43.530 --> 01:17:46.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, 802-321-4225.
[01:17:47.190 --> 01:17:48.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you, Kyle, for whatever it is you did.
[01:17:49.130 --> 01:17:56.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think there was a, um, a monitor switch that was routing the telephone channel to a different, uh, you know, it's not important.
[01:17:56.590 --> 01:18:02.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Next time we let third graders use the board, they have to put it back the way it was, or they're not allowed in here anymore.
[01:18:02.250 --> 01:18:03.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: They need to learn to normalize.
[01:18:03.970 --> 01:18:04.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:18:04.230 --> 01:18:04.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:18:05.370 --> 01:18:07.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: As they are taught every day in school.
[01:18:07.990 --> 01:18:11.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I'm sorry, Alex, you were saying something before I really interrupted you.
[01:18:11.790 --> 01:18:12.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm getting a phone call.
[01:18:12.830 --> 01:18:14.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: We should have another caller.
[01:18:14.250 --> 01:18:14.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yes.
[01:18:15.710 --> 01:18:16.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would love to hear from them.
[01:18:16.970 --> 01:18:17.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that all you have to say?
[01:18:19.310 --> 01:18:19.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:18:19.810 --> 01:18:19.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:18:19.990 --> 01:18:20.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think so.
[01:18:20.410 --> 01:18:22.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I have no idea what, what Rebel was saying.
[01:18:22.630 --> 01:18:23.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, well, it doesn't matter.
[01:18:23.650 --> 01:18:26.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: I believe that everybody on YouTube could actually hear Rebel.
[01:18:26.730 --> 01:18:27.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was just, uh, yeah.
[01:18:27.670 --> 01:18:28.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm the only party.
[01:18:28.450 --> 01:18:29.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're the only one that didn't hear what he said.
[01:18:29.850 --> 01:18:32.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's probably for the best because you're not here for this.
[01:18:32.210 --> 01:18:33.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: You wouldn't have liked what he said about you.
[01:18:33.850 --> 01:18:36.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but anyway, um, here's another phone call.
[01:18:36.370 --> 01:18:36.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:18:36.870 --> 01:18:37.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:18:39.490 --> 01:18:40.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello guys.
[01:18:40.490 --> 01:18:41.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is built from Missouri.
[01:18:41.490 --> 01:18:42.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: How you guys doing?
[01:18:42.370 --> 01:18:42.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: How's it going?
[01:18:43.930 --> 01:18:45.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, hanging in there.
[01:18:45.330 --> 01:18:48.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, Alex, Alex, can you, can you hear our friend from Missouri?
[01:18:49.010 --> 01:18:49.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can indeed.
[01:18:50.250 --> 01:18:50.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:18:50.510 --> 01:18:50.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, hello.
[01:18:51.130 --> 01:18:51.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:18:53.470 --> 01:19:06.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, we were talking earlier about, uh, um, um, China, like banning, uh, crypto coin, but also putting, um, putting limits on how, how much time kids can spend playing, playing video games.
[01:19:06.990 --> 01:19:11.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know how they would do that, but, um, I heard about that.
[01:19:11.830 --> 01:19:12.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:19:13.030 --> 01:19:19.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, also did you hear about YouTube, uh, banning, um, banning channels that are spreading vaccine misinformation?
[01:19:19.590 --> 01:19:19.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:19:19.950 --> 01:19:22.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not just for COVID-19, but for, for all vaccinations.
[01:19:22.910 --> 01:19:33.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, um, yeah, not sure how I feel about that because I'm sure there are some vaccinations that are bad vaccinations that are being run somewhere through some nefarious channel.
[01:19:33.450 --> 01:19:42.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sure they exist, but, um, are they just making it against their policy to criticize any vaccine, even ones in the past?
[01:19:42.630 --> 01:19:43.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or I'm not really sure.
[01:19:43.710 --> 01:19:47.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think I have enough information as to what exactly, uh, this entails.
[01:19:47.690 --> 01:19:52.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, well, you know, the platform is a private company and everything, right?
[01:19:52.210 --> 01:19:55.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: So they have that right to refuse service, I guess you'd call it.
[01:19:56.390 --> 01:19:58.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, but, um, I, I don't know.
[01:19:58.790 --> 01:19:59.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: I really don't know.
[01:19:59.670 --> 01:20:09.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it's good in a way they're trying to get rid of some of this junk, but then again, you know, where do you, where do you, where do you stop?
[01:20:09.810 --> 01:20:15.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I mean, sure these channels can start their own website up like Infowars does.
[01:20:15.230 --> 01:20:15.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:20:15.710 --> 01:20:25.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, that's, that's what makes it not censorship is the fact that you can always speak using your own website or your own means of reaching people.
[01:20:25.750 --> 01:20:27.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: YouTube doesn't have to give you that.
[01:20:27.870 --> 01:20:30.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, uh, uh, Facebook doesn't have to give you that.
[01:20:30.850 --> 01:20:31.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Twitter doesn't have to give you that.
[01:20:32.030 --> 01:20:34.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, it's, it's really, you know, you're playing on their turf.
[01:20:35.130 --> 01:20:35.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: I get that.
[01:20:36.210 --> 01:20:44.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, if, if it ever becomes, uh, you know, if you criticize something and you get hauled off to jail for criticizing it, that's censorship.
[01:20:44.270 --> 01:20:44.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:20:44.850 --> 01:20:49.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: That, that's when you don't have the right to say something and that's not where we are now.
[01:20:50.570 --> 01:20:51.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:20:51.570 --> 01:21:12.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, also, um, the Assange deal, um, that's in this recent book where they, um, Mike Pompeo, like, wanted to, um, assassinating, um, saying, well, saying he was a, you know, he was like a, acting as a, um, as a spy, um, an espionage organization and whatnot,
[01:21:12.790 --> 01:21:12.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: right?
[01:21:13.490 --> 01:21:16.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the thing is, is with WikiLeaks, right?
[01:21:16.490 --> 01:21:18.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: They were publicizing everything they found, right?
[01:21:19.590 --> 01:21:34.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I think that we're kind of under the purview of journalism, even though it's crappy journalism, but, you know, I agree with their methods on how to get their information and everything, but, you know, having the CIA in the head of the CIA say at the time,
[01:21:35.110 --> 01:21:37.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: well, we need to just shoot them in the head and get it over with.
[01:21:37.730 --> 01:21:46.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just, it wouldn't have eliminated the, the whistleblowers who themselves were parts of a lot of those organizations.
[01:21:46.910 --> 01:21:49.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: They still would have spoken somewhere.
[01:21:49.610 --> 01:22:00.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: It facilitated that much in the way it makes Twitter or, uh, any of these other online platforms simplified and easy to share information about whatever your opinion is.
[01:22:00.310 --> 01:22:12.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, these were people working inside organizations who felt that the, these organizations had gone awry and, and the foul of the constitution or, uh, the, the best interests of American, uh, uh, citizens.
[01:22:12.910 --> 01:22:16.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they weren't being heard through the official channels they had.
[01:22:17.270 --> 01:22:33.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, I mean, it, it's, uh, it's, uh, it is, uh, a stretch certainly, uh, um, like you said, it may not have been the type of journalism that people liked, but those stories would found, would have found their way out, whether there was a convenient, um,
[01:22:33.590 --> 01:22:34.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: purveyor of that.
[01:22:34.690 --> 01:22:40.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and, and there was criticism about how well they filtered or edited as we like to refer to it.
[01:22:40.970 --> 01:22:42.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: That maybe is something for history.
[01:22:43.110 --> 01:22:46.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, suffice, I don't know.
[01:22:46.330 --> 01:22:49.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: I, what, I don't know what else, uh, was said in that book.
[01:22:49.590 --> 01:23:00.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the first I heard that, um, uh, the former secretary of, I think, I guess, state was, uh, was interested in, in taking out someone who was, uh, already in prison.
[01:23:00.810 --> 01:23:09.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: If it can be, if it can be proven that he actually did say that, I think that is a scandal, a big scandal, because it's just, it's unseemly for one thing.
[01:23:09.530 --> 01:23:10.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it's dangerous.
[01:23:11.650 --> 01:23:12.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it's barbaric.
[01:23:12.770 --> 01:23:14.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and, we deserve better.
[01:23:14.410 --> 01:23:31.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, sure, maybe there should be some, maybe, you could argue, maybe there'll be some kind of prosecution with, you know, leaking stuff out, but, you know, the, the, just going to that far, if it's like, uh, you know, selling nuclear coats to somebody,
[01:23:31.070 --> 01:23:41.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: I could kind of see some of this, but, you know, just because you don't like what was leaked out, and not what was leaked out, it's, hey, they got some tools to do this, that, and the other.
[01:23:41.970 --> 01:23:48.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, um, I don't think he's, they leaked out any kind of source code or any way to get around or anything, right?
[01:23:48.950 --> 01:23:53.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just, um, just the fact that they had the tools and, and so on.
[01:23:54.390 --> 01:24:02.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, I just think it's, I think it's just, like everything, everything with the CIA is overkill.
[01:24:02.550 --> 01:24:19.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, look how, um, I mean, you were talking, uh, earlier about, um, on NPR about, um, um, about Haiti and how the CIA went, well, not the CIA, but how our government went down there and kind of screwed things up just, uh, you know, so we can get cheaper sugar or whatnot.
[01:24:20.150 --> 01:24:20.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what I mean?
[01:24:21.950 --> 01:24:25.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, it's just, I don't know.
[01:24:25.790 --> 01:24:34.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, just to go and say, hey, we need to kill people because of what they know because they told somebody else.
[01:24:34.290 --> 01:24:34.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's kind of ridiculous.
[01:24:35.050 --> 01:24:35.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not a good look.
[01:24:35.970 --> 01:24:36.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it's not a good look.
[01:24:36.950 --> 01:24:40.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: It makes them look like bullies, which they very well may be.
[01:24:41.210 --> 01:24:43.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, like I said, we, we, we deserve better.
[01:24:44.150 --> 01:24:49.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this is a certain sort of schizophrenia we have with our long-term foreign policy.
[01:24:49.890 --> 01:25:08.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we maybe affect an effect of our deliberative sort of government, but we can't really be counted on in various, um, situations over the long term because often these things change versus, uh, in an administration, there's a, there's a fair amount of incoherence,
[01:25:09.030 --> 01:25:09.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think.
[01:25:09.490 --> 01:25:10.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: And even U.S.
[01:25:11.410 --> 01:25:28.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: citizens might not know, like, what their tax dollars are doing in some other country regulating some mission that someone somewhere, uh, approved and said, yeah, this, this somehow passes muster with, you know, uh, no oversight or, or, um, you know, black budgets,
[01:25:28.790 --> 01:25:29.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: all these things.
[01:25:29.230 --> 01:25:30.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it goes on.
[01:25:30.310 --> 01:25:47.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and I think it is really made harder when journalism and, uh, institutions that are talking about these things are shining light on this stuff when they can't inform the people that are, are voting for the leadership that approves this stuff.
[01:25:47.830 --> 01:25:59.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that is something that everybody in America should be very concerned about, whether you've traveled or not, whether you're really interested in geopolitics or not, stuff goes on in our name.
[01:25:59.370 --> 01:26:10.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we ought to take an interest in anybody who has a story to tell from the inside that puts their life or their career life in the context of this conversation, that they put that on the line.
[01:26:10.330 --> 01:26:11.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: They should be heard.
[01:26:11.710 --> 01:26:19.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: They should be supported and revered for telling the populace what will not be told.
[01:26:20.630 --> 01:26:21.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[01:26:21.370 --> 01:26:22.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's a difficult thing to do.
[01:26:23.030 --> 01:26:29.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is worthy of, uh, of, of, uh, attention and not, uh, not constant threats.
[01:26:30.250 --> 01:26:35.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, listen, thanks, uh, We've always... Go ahead, uh, finish your thought and then we're going to go on to the class.
[01:26:35.410 --> 01:26:42.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, well, this country's always done the, um, kind of heavy-handed thing with the stick anyway called... Mm-hmm.
[01:26:43.090 --> 01:26:53.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, back in 19th century, we sent, like, uh, warships to hang out in, you know, Tokyo Bay to open them up so they could trade with people, trade with us, you know?
[01:26:54.610 --> 01:27:01.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, it's, it's, it's why I don't get about this, um, this thing, this pitchback against critical race theory.
[01:27:03.070 --> 01:27:18.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, I guess, uh, I guess the people who don't want, don't want the kids to know that, hey, you know, there are the people living here before we, we came over here in colonies and everything, and we kind of kicked them off for land and moved them into reservations and everything,
[01:27:19.070 --> 01:27:21.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: and they don't want, they don't want people to hear that.
[01:27:21.950 --> 01:27:24.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: They just want to hear all the, all the great stories.
[01:27:24.310 --> 01:27:26.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, uh, you know, they want to make it look like Hamilton.
[01:27:26.470 --> 01:27:28.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's like, hey, look, look how great we were.
[01:27:29.010 --> 01:27:30.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Look, it's a simple, simple solution.
[01:27:31.230 --> 01:27:33.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't let them call it critical race theory.
[01:27:34.190 --> 01:27:34.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Call it history.
[01:27:35.170 --> 01:27:35.170]  Yeah.
[01:27:35.170 --> 01:27:37.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because history, that is what it is.
[01:27:37.930 --> 01:27:42.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, we should allow history to be taught in all its blemishes.
[01:27:42.670 --> 01:27:44.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, that's, you know, how history works.
[01:27:44.510 --> 01:27:45.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's how we learn.
[01:27:45.410 --> 01:27:50.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, that's how the amendments came about in the Constitution to try to fix some of that problem.
[01:27:51.450 --> 01:27:51.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:27:51.770 --> 01:28:01.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, the, uh, people who complain about it, it's like, well, you know, um, we don't want to make white people look back, uh, look like the, um, look like the bad guys, but, you know.
[01:28:01.750 --> 01:28:05.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, then maybe, maybe stop being the bad guys and that won't happen as much.
[01:28:05.170 --> 01:28:05.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:28:05.250 --> 01:28:11.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: In the Constitution, when they ratified and everything, a black person was counted as three-fifths of a person.
[01:28:11.970 --> 01:28:14.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: So how do you explain that without explaining racism?
[01:28:14.730 --> 01:28:14.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:28:14.970 --> 01:28:23.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all the more reason we should teach it and be informed and, and so that it instructs people's lives going forward.
[01:28:23.490 --> 01:28:33.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: But this is, this is what Democrats need to do, which they always fail to do, is, is stop playing by Republicans' rules and stop, uh, saying things about critical race theory and just make it about history.
[01:28:33.150 --> 01:28:33.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is history.
[01:28:33.990 --> 01:28:35.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: We are teaching history.
[01:28:35.550 --> 01:28:36.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is what happened in history.
[01:28:37.430 --> 01:28:41.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: How can you prevent us from teaching history to our children, period?
[01:28:42.110 --> 01:28:52.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: As soon as you take the bait and, and, and start using their phrasing, uh, it becomes a lot easier for people who don't know all the facts to simply target you as the threat.
[01:28:52.750 --> 01:28:56.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, in this particular case, those people are not the threat.
[01:28:56.690 --> 01:29:00.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: The people who are the threat are the people trying to prevent history from being told.
[01:29:00.190 --> 01:29:01.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that is what they are doing.
[01:29:03.450 --> 01:29:05.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just, I don't know.
[01:29:05.410 --> 01:29:09.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just, it's just, it's kind of, it's real confusing.
[01:29:09.690 --> 01:29:16.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: It kind of makes me mad too, because, you know, I had no problem learning about the, the trail of tears and school and all this sort of stuff.
[01:29:17.050 --> 01:29:18.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is stuff we already learned.
[01:29:18.850 --> 01:29:23.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I didn't know about the Tulsa thing until I didn't know about Tulsa either until very recently.
[01:29:23.390 --> 01:29:24.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm ashamed.
[01:29:24.090 --> 01:29:24.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:29:24.710 --> 01:29:25.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: At the same time.
[01:29:25.950 --> 01:29:26.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:29:27.150 --> 01:29:31.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I wasn't taught that in, in, in grade school, junior high school, high school, or college.
[01:29:32.170 --> 01:29:37.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: The funny thing about that is when you walk away, like walking away from that, asking yourself, well, why wasn't I taught this?
[01:29:37.890 --> 01:29:39.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like you answer your own question immediately.
[01:29:39.970 --> 01:29:41.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, oh, okay.
[01:29:41.490 --> 01:29:41.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:29:42.110 --> 01:29:42.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:29:42.590 --> 01:29:46.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Think about the most meaningless thing that you've been taught that everybody knows.
[01:29:47.030 --> 01:29:52.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I can't think of something offhand, but I know there are things like that, that everybody's taught and something meaningful like this is just glossed over.
[01:29:53.010 --> 01:29:54.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway, thanks again for the call.
[01:29:54.730 --> 01:29:55.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're going to move on.
[01:29:55.850 --> 01:29:56.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please keep listening.
[01:29:56.850 --> 01:29:56.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:29:57.130 --> 01:29:57.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: And call back.
[01:29:58.730 --> 01:30:04.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, uh, Alex, uh, you know, there's a mirror behind your head so I can tell that you're, uh, you're, you're scrolling through the web.
[01:30:04.490 --> 01:30:08.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, in case you thought you were doing that surreptitiously.
[01:30:09.810 --> 01:30:12.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no, we can actually see what's, what's going on behind it.
[01:30:12.930 --> 01:30:14.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, maybe, maybe in one of these picture frames.
[01:30:15.130 --> 01:30:15.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:30:15.170 --> 01:30:15.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:30:15.710 --> 01:30:15.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[01:30:16.110 --> 01:30:18.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, I'm just logging on.
[01:30:18.410 --> 01:30:19.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're legitimate sites.
[01:30:19.430 --> 01:30:23.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, there's nothing, nothing to be ashamed of in any way, but I just figured you should know that, uh, we can see it.
[01:30:23.570 --> 01:30:24.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: We can see it all.
[01:30:24.210 --> 01:30:30.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, speaking of being ashamed, uh, I am much like a, our caller from Missouri was ashamed.
[01:30:30.290 --> 01:30:37.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I had only learned about, uh, Oklahoma, what happened in Tulsa from the Watchmen.
[01:30:37.430 --> 01:30:38.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: None of us knew about this.
[01:30:38.870 --> 01:30:39.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I, okay.
[01:30:39.630 --> 01:30:44.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm glad that we're all admitting it because literally none of us were taught this.
[01:30:44.870 --> 01:30:46.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, it had to be fake.
[01:30:46.690 --> 01:30:52.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought it had to be, uh, made up that it possibly have been that real.
[01:30:52.990 --> 01:30:54.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I didn't, I didn't think that.
[01:30:54.370 --> 01:31:02.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believed it when I heard it, but, uh, I'm, I'm very surprised that it was, it was never taught because that is just such an incredible story.
[01:31:02.310 --> 01:31:08.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: How, how this thriving black community was destroyed, uh, in, um, the early 1900s.
[01:31:08.830 --> 01:31:09.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was just incredible.
[01:31:09.870 --> 01:31:12.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was absolutely horrific, terrible.
[01:31:13.110 --> 01:31:24.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: And how much else, how much else haven't we been taught from history that we have to, uh, uh, uh, I mean, Juneteenth is now a thing, you know, finally, but how many people didn't know about that until recently?
[01:31:25.990 --> 01:31:26.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:31:26.630 --> 01:31:27.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are we have a phone call?
[01:31:27.310 --> 01:31:27.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:31:27.710 --> 01:31:27.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:31:28.110 --> 01:31:29.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yes, I believe there's a call on the one.
[01:31:29.810 --> 01:31:30.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, go ahead, caller.
[01:31:30.590 --> 01:31:32.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: You are on the air or, or on the web.
[01:31:33.090 --> 01:31:34.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening over the hook.
[01:31:34.450 --> 01:31:35.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's Bobson from Bulgaria.
[01:31:37.450 --> 01:31:40.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: You would like to ask for the next caller to be irregular if possible.
[01:31:41.270 --> 01:31:47.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what I mean by that is nothing to do with your diet has to do with not calling us each week.
[01:31:47.290 --> 01:31:54.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, I'd like to hear somebody that, uh, I mean, not that I don't want to hear from you, Bobson, but I also want to hear from other people who maybe are calling for the first time.
[01:31:54.690 --> 01:31:57.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: So just when Bobson leaves, please give us a call.
[01:31:58.130 --> 01:31:59.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: 802-321-4225.
[01:31:59.830 --> 01:32:05.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't call before, or you'll go into some weird region where you might be able to leave a voicemail message, but we'll never get you.
[01:32:06.030 --> 01:32:07.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: So Bobson, what's, what's going on?
[01:32:07.850 --> 01:32:11.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I have a question for you.
[01:32:12.370 --> 01:32:25.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a recent news from New York where it said that people who are not vaccinated were going to be dismissed from healthcare occupations.
[01:32:27.810 --> 01:32:28.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:32:28.930 --> 01:32:30.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Does that sound familiar?
[01:32:31.450 --> 01:32:32.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, yes.
[01:32:32.470 --> 01:32:33.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, it does.
[01:32:33.710 --> 01:32:34.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, that is correct.
[01:32:35.050 --> 01:32:42.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: People who are not vaccinated are no longer going to be allowed to work in health care service or what have you.
[01:32:42.230 --> 01:32:46.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, in a, in a, in a position, in a position of healthcare, in my opinion.
[01:32:46.510 --> 01:32:49.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, a position of healthcare where people can spread disease.
[01:32:50.030 --> 01:32:52.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I think it's a good idea to have those people vaccinated.
[01:32:53.010 --> 01:32:56.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: If they don't think it's a good idea, I'd like to ask why they're in healthcare in the first place.
[01:32:57.070 --> 01:32:57.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Doesn't make any sense.
[01:32:59.710 --> 01:33:02.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I have a question related to that.
[01:33:02.670 --> 01:33:03.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh...
[01:33:03.030 --> 01:33:08.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: By the way, before you, before you get into that, Bobson, somebody has, uh, has audio up high and we're hearing delay.
[01:33:08.650 --> 01:33:10.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: So is that you, Alex, or is that you, Bobson?
[01:33:10.770 --> 01:33:11.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's one of you.
[01:33:12.430 --> 01:33:14.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not Alex, so it must be Bobson.
[01:33:15.030 --> 01:33:15.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[01:33:15.710 --> 01:33:16.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds like a web stream of it.
[01:33:16.950 --> 01:33:17.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, sounds like a web stream.
[01:33:17.870 --> 01:33:18.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Slight delay.
[01:33:18.590 --> 01:33:20.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Probably how, uh, Bobson was tuning in.
[01:33:20.210 --> 01:33:20.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: So go on.
[01:33:20.710 --> 01:33:21.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't hear it anymore.
[01:33:21.470 --> 01:33:21.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that's good.
[01:33:21.990 --> 01:33:22.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you.
[01:33:23.530 --> 01:33:42.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: So what I wanted to ask is, does that mean now that people who are not vaccinated are no longer going to be allowed to work in healthcare, does that mean that disabled people are only going to be able to be able to get vaccinated AIDS in New York these days?
[01:33:43.450 --> 01:33:50.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which is a question that one of your recent... listeners of... I'm not sure I understand the question.
[01:33:51.850 --> 01:33:58.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, disabled people need AIDS, some of them.
[01:33:58.550 --> 01:34:00.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Home healthcare workers.
[01:34:00.750 --> 01:34:00.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[01:34:01.530 --> 01:34:06.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, uh... Are those AIDS only going to be vaccinated from now on?
[01:34:06.030 --> 01:34:06.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a good question.
[01:34:06.910 --> 01:34:09.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Like, like, one of our listeners called in about months ago.
[01:34:09.290 --> 01:34:15.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think this has been addressed... Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, asking if you know anything about it.
[01:34:15.770 --> 01:34:23.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not 100% sure, but I think in, uh, weeks prior, this issue was specifically addressed in New York State, but I don't know the details on that.
[01:34:23.930 --> 01:34:24.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not 100% sure.
[01:34:24.730 --> 01:34:29.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It certainly seems like this is a step in that direction, if it hasn't already been, been, uh, been crossed.
[01:34:30.250 --> 01:34:31.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I would hope so.
[01:34:31.450 --> 01:34:32.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I would hope so.
[01:34:33.730 --> 01:34:35.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: It would be a good thing.
[01:34:35.370 --> 01:34:38.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for our time, and I was...
[01:34:38.730 --> 01:34:39.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, wait, wait.
[01:34:39.710 --> 01:34:40.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hang on.
[01:34:40.390 --> 01:34:41.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alex has something for you.
[01:34:41.250 --> 01:34:41.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[01:34:42.170 --> 01:34:42.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, Steve.
[01:34:42.970 --> 01:34:44.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was hoping you would call tonight.
[01:34:45.150 --> 01:34:47.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I want to address something specifically with you.
[01:34:48.990 --> 01:34:50.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it sounds ominous somehow.
[01:34:51.070 --> 01:34:53.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yes, indeed it is.
[01:34:53.570 --> 01:35:01.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, a couple of weeks ago, I was, uh, driving around here in Pennsylvania, and I saw a, uh, market.
[01:35:01.650 --> 01:35:04.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was labeled as a European supermarket.
[01:35:04.390 --> 01:35:07.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I convinced my wife to go to this European supermarket with me.
[01:35:08.190 --> 01:35:09.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was hardly European.
[01:35:10.130 --> 01:35:14.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was just, it was almost exclusively Bulgaria and Russian.
[01:35:14.630 --> 01:35:18.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just tons and tons of, uh, Bulgarian food at this market.
[01:35:19.050 --> 01:35:26.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had no idea there, there was some kind of Bulgarian, uh, expat community over here, um, in Pennsylvania.
[01:35:26.230 --> 01:35:30.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I got, uh, I got these cookies that I absolutely loved.
[01:35:31.470 --> 01:35:33.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I, I remember the name.
[01:35:33.950 --> 01:35:35.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was, I think it was Wafla.
[01:35:35.890 --> 01:35:37.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that, does that sound like?
[01:35:37.950 --> 01:35:37.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, yes.
[01:35:38.190 --> 01:35:38.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[01:35:40.950 --> 01:35:49.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thin slices of baked, uh, the paste, baked, what's it called?
[01:35:49.330 --> 01:35:51.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Dough with, uh, filling.
[01:35:51.250 --> 01:35:53.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like a paste kind of top, right?
[01:35:54.310 --> 01:35:55.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're wafers.
[01:35:55.370 --> 01:35:56.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're like a wafer.
[01:35:57.570 --> 01:36:02.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, wafers in layers with filling between them, right?
[01:36:02.750 --> 01:36:03.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's right.
[01:36:03.770 --> 01:36:09.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Except they're bigger and, and thicker than, I think, a usual wafer that, that we would, we would have here.
[01:36:09.490 --> 01:36:11.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was this gigantic box of them.
[01:36:12.210 --> 01:36:13.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were, they were really good.
[01:36:14.210 --> 01:36:17.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: You see, this is hackers engaging in, in cultural diplomacy again.
[01:36:17.810 --> 01:36:22.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's plenty of various brands of those around here.
[01:36:23.990 --> 01:36:24.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[01:36:25.290 --> 01:36:29.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is, is, is Wafla the brand, or is that just the name of the type of cookie?
[01:36:29.150 --> 01:36:31.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wafla is just the type of the,
[01:36:34.710 --> 01:36:36.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: what do you call it?
[01:36:37.890 --> 01:36:40.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of the dessert type thing.
[01:36:41.150 --> 01:36:44.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's like a cookie bar or some such.
[01:36:45.430 --> 01:36:45.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:36:46.210 --> 01:36:46.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:36:46.530 --> 01:36:46.530]  Yes.
[01:36:46.530 --> 01:36:46.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:36:46.950 --> 01:36:47.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[01:36:47.230 --> 01:36:48.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's various, that makes sense.
[01:36:49.550 --> 01:36:52.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and then I also got a brand of, uh, Hang on.
[01:36:52.830 --> 01:36:54.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: You guys are talking at the same time.
[01:36:54.330 --> 01:36:54.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alex, go ahead.
[01:36:55.270 --> 01:36:55.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ooh.
[01:36:56.490 --> 01:36:56.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:36:56.690 --> 01:36:57.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, bro.
[01:36:57.110 --> 01:36:57.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't mean to talk over you.
[01:36:58.410 --> 01:37:01.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I also got a bottle of something, I think by the name of Ochaikovsky.
[01:37:02.330 --> 01:37:04.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you familiar with that, that liquid?
[01:37:05.670 --> 01:37:07.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I thought he was a composer.
[01:37:09.010 --> 01:37:09.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll try.
[01:37:09.790 --> 01:37:14.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't, I don't, I haven't heard the name yet.
[01:37:15.150 --> 01:37:17.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, it's that fermented Russian drink.
[01:37:17.530 --> 01:37:20.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's like a kvass or something like that.
[01:37:21.830 --> 01:37:24.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or a kvass or some such.
[01:37:24.830 --> 01:37:26.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know those.
[01:37:27.070 --> 01:37:28.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know where to buy my kvass.
[01:37:28.510 --> 01:37:32.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's like, uh, it's a fermented drink made from, from bread.
[01:37:32.610 --> 01:37:36.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: They, they, the woman told me that they made it from bread and from rye bread.
[01:37:37.010 --> 01:37:44.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it had this, this kind of bready, um, it was, it was pretty, to my mouth, it tasted really putrid.
[01:37:45.530 --> 01:37:50.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and then I looked it up and apparently it was just, it was very popular in Central and Eastern Europe.
[01:37:51.150 --> 01:37:55.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, uh, you know, where, where people would make this fermented drink.
[01:37:55.930 --> 01:37:59.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was very often safer than drinking the water because of the pH levels in it.
[01:38:00.250 --> 01:38:02.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but I wanted to know if you had this.
[01:38:02.210 --> 01:38:06.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had read stories about, you know, kids kind of surviving off of this.
[01:38:07.190 --> 01:38:09.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it's very strange fermented.
[01:38:09.730 --> 01:38:19.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's a different, uh, fermented drink that was popular here when I was younger and before that.
[01:38:19.650 --> 01:38:32.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's in recent time been damaged by commercial, uh, mishandling, shall we say, by people who are looking to make quick book.
[01:38:32.170 --> 01:38:37.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, there are certain fermented beverages that are.
[01:38:38.890 --> 01:38:39.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:38:39.670 --> 01:38:41.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you, you probably have some.
[01:38:41.090 --> 01:38:41.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:38:41.350 --> 01:38:47.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've realized now that we've been deprived growing up of fermented beverages in this country because I can't remember a single one from my childhood.
[01:38:48.410 --> 01:38:49.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, nothing.
[01:38:49.770 --> 01:38:53.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, cause all, I guess they would have a very low alcohol content.
[01:38:54.190 --> 01:38:54.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh huh.
[01:38:54.990 --> 01:38:56.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Kyle, do you remember any fermented beverages?
[01:38:56.690 --> 01:38:57.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, like apple cider.
[01:38:57.950 --> 01:39:05.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'd have like, uh, it's like cider press, you know, and you, you have cider that's fermented, I think a little bit, not quite the same.
[01:39:06.130 --> 01:39:06.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:39:06.670 --> 01:39:19.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Depending on the cider, it's, there are types of adult ciders that the French bottle in flashes similar to what they use for champagne and such.
[01:39:21.470 --> 01:39:22.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yes.
[01:39:23.290 --> 01:39:27.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because, because for, for some reason, we're talking about a Bulgarian community in Pennsylvania.
[01:39:28.510 --> 01:39:34.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, Bobson, is this something that you know about that there, there's a, uh, a large number of Bulgarian people who live there?
[01:39:34.530 --> 01:39:38.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and Alex, is that what you're saying that this Bulgarian supermarket exists in the middle of?
[01:39:38.830 --> 01:39:39.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:39:39.590 --> 01:39:44.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there, there must be, uh, a market for people to buy Bulgarian groceries.
[01:39:44.630 --> 01:39:46.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise there wouldn't be a Bulgarian grocery store.
[01:39:47.110 --> 01:40:00.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, this is... If I'm ever over there, I'll try and find it and maybe enjoy some imports that are less likely to be obtained elsewhere.
[01:40:01.350 --> 01:40:03.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is it, is this place a chain or is it just one place?
[01:40:04.510 --> 01:40:05.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just one place.
[01:40:05.810 --> 01:40:06.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Huh, interesting.
[01:40:06.390 --> 01:40:07.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, it's a standalone store.
[01:40:07.770 --> 01:40:07.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:40:08.070 --> 01:40:10.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Does it have a Cyrillic writing on the outside?
[01:40:11.070 --> 01:40:12.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Which part of Pennsylvania is it in?
[01:40:12.770 --> 01:40:14.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a European supermarket.
[01:40:14.690 --> 01:40:18.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's, um, I think it's around Bartonsville or Tannersville.
[01:40:19.510 --> 01:40:20.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: The village section.
[01:40:20.590 --> 01:40:20.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Pennsylvania.
[01:40:21.150 --> 01:40:26.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only place in Pennsylvania I know of is, uh, what's it called?
[01:40:27.170 --> 01:40:28.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: The large city there.
[01:40:28.910 --> 01:40:29.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Philadelphia.
[01:40:29.510 --> 01:40:29.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Philadelphia.
[01:40:30.330 --> 01:40:31.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was going to say Scranton.
[01:40:31.550 --> 01:40:34.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I was going to say Allentown, but I guess that's also a big city.
[01:40:35.710 --> 01:40:35.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:40:37.010 --> 01:40:38.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Pittsburgh as well.
[01:40:38.310 --> 01:40:38.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah, Pittsburgh.
[01:40:39.450 --> 01:40:39.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[01:40:39.850 --> 01:40:39.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:40:40.270 --> 01:40:40.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
[01:40:41.270 --> 01:40:42.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, all right.
[01:40:42.450 --> 01:40:42.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know what?
[01:40:42.790 --> 01:40:45.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've talked about the Midwest enough for one night, I think.
[01:40:45.250 --> 01:40:47.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, um, Bobson, anything else for you?
[01:40:47.790 --> 01:40:49.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is this Pennsylvania in the Midwest?
[01:40:50.350 --> 01:40:51.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, it's in the Midwest.
[01:40:51.730 --> 01:40:52.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it's in the Midwest.
[01:40:52.930 --> 01:40:55.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: The, the West is the Midwest, I would think.
[01:40:55.270 --> 01:40:56.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very, very close to Ohio.
[01:40:57.470 --> 01:41:04.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but, uh, but Bobson, I wanted to ask, uh, any recommendations for something that I should look for in, in terms of a dessert?
[01:41:05.510 --> 01:41:05.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:41:05.990 --> 01:41:07.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go in there and ask.
[01:41:07.110 --> 01:41:21.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I don't know if they supply that, they get the brand there, but there is a brand of Wafwa, which is called Focus, which is like, um, the word for magic trick.
[01:41:22.150 --> 01:41:22.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[01:41:22.630 --> 01:41:29.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a bit, uh, if you don't read Cirlik, I don't know how to describe the writing to you.
[01:41:30.150 --> 01:41:30.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a bit tricky.
[01:41:31.330 --> 01:41:31.330]  Yeah.
[01:41:31.430 --> 01:41:36.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: It would be a C, T, O, K, C or something?
[01:41:36.210 --> 01:41:36.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Stokos?
[01:41:36.630 --> 01:41:37.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[01:41:37.790 --> 01:41:45.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: The first letter is similar to the Greek phi, if a large phi.
[01:41:49.310 --> 01:41:58.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, and it's O, K, Epsilon, C in terms of how the letters work.
[01:41:58.350 --> 01:42:00.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: I feel so stupid right now.
[01:42:00.450 --> 01:42:02.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bobson should be giving us Cyrillic lessons every week.
[01:42:02.370 --> 01:42:04.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: He should be giving us Cyrillic lessons on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:42:04.890 --> 01:42:05.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'd be much more educated.
[01:42:06.090 --> 01:42:09.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know how we would do that on the radio, but we should, we should.
[01:42:09.410 --> 01:42:14.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's gonna, it would happen the same on the radio if you were in the studio right now.
[01:42:15.450 --> 01:42:16.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's true.
[01:42:16.290 --> 01:42:16.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think.
[01:42:17.710 --> 01:42:21.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if we were in the studio, we'd be far away from a Bulgarian supermarket.
[01:42:21.430 --> 01:42:24.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can tell you that right now, because I don't know any of them in New York City.
[01:42:25.290 --> 01:42:25.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is true.
[01:42:25.650 --> 01:42:26.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is true.
[01:42:26.830 --> 01:42:38.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, look, when you, when you come over, uh, to visit, we'll, we'll be sure to, uh, make a trip to the Bulgarian supermarket and we'll look for this, uh, mysterious Stokos brand of Vafla.
[01:42:39.370 --> 01:42:41.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or I could bring some over.
[01:42:41.270 --> 01:42:41.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:42:41.630 --> 01:42:42.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: How about that?
[01:42:42.730 --> 01:42:43.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could bring some over.
[01:42:43.930 --> 01:42:44.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:42:44.170 --> 01:42:44.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would be even better.
[01:42:45.630 --> 01:42:46.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would be even better.
[01:42:47.210 --> 01:42:47.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[01:42:47.890 --> 01:42:54.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alex, I think you need to make some more trips to this place and just bring some products online so we can talk about them and make fun of them.
[01:42:55.030 --> 01:42:55.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:42:55.970 --> 01:42:56.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll do that.
[01:42:56.990 --> 01:43:03.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have, we'll, you know, we'll, we'll have our considered opinion and then Bobson's rebuttal as an expert.
[01:43:03.350 --> 01:43:03.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[01:43:04.030 --> 01:43:04.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[01:43:06.570 --> 01:43:08.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: That would be off the air.
[01:43:09.670 --> 01:43:11.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: We are off the air.
[01:43:11.390 --> 01:43:14.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're not, we're not on any air right now unless somebody's rebroadcasting us.
[01:43:15.970 --> 01:43:22.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I'd, I'd like to hear if people would prefer us talking about Bulgarian groceries as, as opposed to... Yeah.
[01:43:22.950 --> 01:43:25.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Overtime could just become a Bulgarian grocery show.
[01:43:25.250 --> 01:43:27.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, that's happened before, so why not?
[01:43:27.510 --> 01:43:27.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's true.
[01:43:28.090 --> 01:43:29.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's only so much technology.
[01:43:30.210 --> 01:43:31.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's only so much technology we can take.
[01:43:31.890 --> 01:43:34.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: The radio equivalent to clipping coupons.
[01:43:34.030 --> 01:43:34.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Coupons.
[01:43:35.270 --> 01:43:36.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Did you say coupons?
[01:43:36.950 --> 01:43:37.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I said coupons.
[01:43:37.390 --> 01:43:38.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: You say coupons?
[01:43:38.550 --> 01:43:39.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why do you say it that way?
[01:43:39.870 --> 01:43:41.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's coupons, not coupons.
[01:43:41.830 --> 01:43:43.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it's O-U, C-O-U.
[01:43:44.370 --> 01:43:44.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Coupon.
[01:43:45.010 --> 01:43:45.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, coupon.
[01:43:46.050 --> 01:43:47.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: The way you pronounce Spokane, I can never understand.
[01:43:48.490 --> 01:43:48.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Spokane.
[01:43:48.910 --> 01:43:49.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
[01:43:49.750 --> 01:43:50.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: K-A-N-E is Cain.
[01:43:51.530 --> 01:43:51.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:43:51.790 --> 01:43:56.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know what, Bobson, we're going to bicker about our own language now for a while, but thanks for calling.
[01:43:56.250 --> 01:43:56.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good to hear from you.
[01:43:56.910 --> 01:43:58.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll be listening on YouTube.
[01:43:59.150 --> 01:43:59.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[01:43:59.650 --> 01:44:00.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: On the YouTubes.
[01:44:00.330 --> 01:44:00.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:44:00.810 --> 01:44:02.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: And greetings to everybody in Bulgaria from us.
[01:44:03.110 --> 01:44:03.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks.
[01:44:03.830 --> 01:44:05.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have a wonderful evening, folks.
[01:44:06.050 --> 01:44:07.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a wonderful morning to you.
[01:44:07.270 --> 01:44:08.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for the show.
[01:44:08.790 --> 01:44:11.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry about the situation.
[01:44:11.650 --> 01:44:13.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Your friend has found themselves in.
[01:44:14.450 --> 01:44:17.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you spoke on the radio about...
[01:44:17.610 --> 01:44:23.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: As long as you know the story and are able to keep up with it, I think that's something.
[01:44:23.470 --> 01:44:24.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that counts.
[01:44:24.530 --> 01:44:24.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: That matters.
[01:44:25.530 --> 01:44:30.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you people are the only way for me to be able to keep up with it.
[01:44:30.550 --> 01:44:41.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm waiting to hear more next week, or whenever things become clear with the trial and all that.
[01:44:42.750 --> 01:44:48.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we'll try to keep people updated as we learn more, and the 2600 site as well.
[01:44:48.390 --> 01:44:49.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway, good hearing from you.
[01:44:49.890 --> 01:44:51.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Take care, and I'll see you next time.
[01:44:51.210 --> 01:44:52.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for saying I'm here.
[01:44:52.330 --> 01:44:53.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have a good night, everybody.
[01:44:54.030 --> 01:44:54.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for listening, too.
[01:44:56.290 --> 01:44:56.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:44:57.130 --> 01:45:00.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I guess now's the time for that irregular call to call in.
[01:45:00.690 --> 01:45:02.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: 802-321-4225.
[01:45:02.490 --> 01:45:05.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: 802-321-HACK is our phone number.
[01:45:05.290 --> 01:45:06.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And oh, wow.
[01:45:06.290 --> 01:45:10.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Time really flies when we're doing radio online or offline.
[01:45:12.230 --> 01:45:13.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: So yeah.
[01:45:14.770 --> 01:45:16.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: What do you think about this hack of Epic?
[01:45:17.470 --> 01:45:24.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anonymous hackers dump 150 gigabytes of names, passwords, and addresses of far-right website admins.
[01:45:25.050 --> 01:45:28.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: The massive data dump could take years to properly analyze.
[01:45:28.810 --> 01:45:32.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: It includes names, passwords, and addresses of administrators of far-right sites.
[01:45:32.570 --> 01:45:39.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: They all use the Washington-based web host Epic, E-P-I-K, which was founded by a guy whose name is actually Rob Monster.
[01:45:40.370 --> 01:45:46.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Epic has hosted websites like B-Chan, The Daily Stormer, Gab, and Parler.
[01:45:47.250 --> 01:45:51.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: The domain registrar's weak security standards left its customers vulnerable.
[01:45:51.790 --> 01:45:52.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's according to the hackers.
[01:45:53.130 --> 01:46:03.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anonymous published the 150 gigabytes of data for public download on September 13th, with a letter urging researchers to trace the worst trash the Internet has to offer.
[01:46:03.850 --> 01:46:07.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: The leak has already led to the identification of some far-right activists.
[01:46:08.110 --> 01:46:16.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ali Alexander tried to hide his involvement in January 6th protests shortly after the Capitol riot turned deadly, according to a data analysis by The Daily Dot.
[01:46:16.670 --> 01:46:18.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not sure why that's in this summation here.
[01:46:19.270 --> 01:46:21.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think it has anything to do with the rest of the story.
[01:46:22.690 --> 01:46:25.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: But that's interesting.
[01:46:25.470 --> 01:46:26.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Interesting to see.
[01:46:26.870 --> 01:46:27.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's probably related.
[01:46:27.910 --> 01:46:29.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's from the Daily Mail, yes.
[01:46:29.210 --> 01:46:30.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it was listed as one of the items.
[01:46:30.550 --> 01:46:32.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'll look at that a little bit more carefully.
[01:46:33.270 --> 01:46:35.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's see who's on the telephone.
[01:46:35.490 --> 01:46:35.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:46:35.910 --> 01:46:37.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:46:39.810 --> 01:46:40.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Go ahead.
[01:46:41.410 --> 01:46:45.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: A few quick thoughts about email dot addressing and plus addressing.
[01:46:45.570 --> 01:46:47.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, sorry, I cut you off at the beginning.
[01:46:47.910 --> 01:46:48.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Could you reintroduce yourself?
[01:46:50.510 --> 01:46:52.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, this is Pete from the Hudson Valley.
[01:46:52.470 --> 01:46:52.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, okay.
[01:46:52.910 --> 01:46:53.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, Pete.
[01:46:53.330 --> 01:46:53.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[01:46:53.730 --> 01:46:55.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think you're an irregular caller.
[01:46:56.090 --> 01:46:57.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: You haven't called us too much recently, have you?
[01:46:58.170 --> 01:46:58.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Not too much.
[01:46:58.950 --> 01:46:59.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:46:59.190 --> 01:46:59.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Two times in the past.
[01:47:00.010 --> 01:47:00.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's on your mind?
[01:47:00.550 --> 01:47:00.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's been a while.
[01:47:00.710 --> 01:47:06.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: So just a few quick thoughts about email dot addressing and plus addressing.
[01:47:06.790 --> 01:47:13.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I know plus addressing appears in the email spec or the RFC.
[01:47:13.810 --> 01:47:16.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it should work with most email providers.
[01:47:16.870 --> 01:47:18.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not sure about the dot.
[01:47:18.410 --> 01:47:21.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've been driving, so I haven't had a chance to see if that appears in the spec.
[01:47:21.630 --> 01:47:23.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, don't email while driving.
[01:47:26.570 --> 01:47:32.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: But something I like to do is use a random plus filter whenever I sign up for a service.
[01:47:33.190 --> 01:47:43.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it adds a layer of security because if someone knows your email address, can't try to do like a brute force attack and log in as you because they don't know what the plus is necessarily.
[01:47:44.690 --> 01:47:52.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's also surprising how many services don't recognize plus as a valid email character because they use, you know, some basic regex.
[01:47:52.970 --> 01:47:53.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, right.
[01:47:55.130 --> 01:47:56.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, it's worth trying.
[01:47:57.350 --> 01:47:59.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: What I do is add it to my password manager.
[01:48:00.170 --> 01:48:05.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I have, you know, basically a custom email address for each site along alongside my custom password.
[01:48:07.030 --> 01:48:08.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, that was it.
[01:48:08.490 --> 01:48:09.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just wanted to throw that out there.
[01:48:09.710 --> 01:48:09.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:48:09.990 --> 01:48:10.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, thanks.
[01:48:10.370 --> 01:48:11.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's very, very helpful.
[01:48:11.830 --> 01:48:12.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Drive safe.
[01:48:12.850 --> 01:48:13.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:48:13.630 --> 01:48:13.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Take care.
[01:48:14.210 --> 01:48:14.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Take care.
[01:48:14.970 --> 01:48:17.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think we have time for maybe one more phone call.
[01:48:17.510 --> 01:48:18.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was really interesting.
[01:48:18.990 --> 01:48:23.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was a very compressed news alert.
[01:48:23.510 --> 01:48:28.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm fascinated and I want to know more about just exactly what the plus scheme is.
[01:48:28.370 --> 01:48:34.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: From what I understand, it's basically just like separating names with a dot, but you could add in a plus.
[01:48:35.130 --> 01:48:40.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: But he's talking about sites not accepting that expression or that character.
[01:48:40.870 --> 01:48:48.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it's interesting not accepting and ignoring and bouncing and things like that, but it's, you know, experiment, you know, try, try different things.
[01:48:48.150 --> 01:48:49.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'd love to hear more about this.
[01:48:49.510 --> 01:48:49.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[01:48:50.150 --> 01:48:54.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you know, one thing I think is very important is, uh, be sure to use two factor authentication.
[01:48:54.190 --> 01:49:06.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I say this because, um, a friend of mine recently, uh, found themselves targeted by an angry ex who somehow still had possession of a laptop that allowed, um, uh, automatic login to Gmail.
[01:49:06.470 --> 01:49:13.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: And with that, they were able to gain all kinds of information about them, their significant others, their family.
[01:49:13.670 --> 01:49:15.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're talking about financial statements.
[01:49:16.030 --> 01:49:24.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're talking about voicemails, talking about emails, people put way too much on these services, but if you're going to do that, okay.
[01:49:24.870 --> 01:49:32.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, at least have it so that whenever you log into this particular system, you have to verify that it's actually you.
[01:49:32.210 --> 01:49:37.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the way that works is you enter your password password and, um, then you get a text message on your phone.
[01:49:38.050 --> 01:49:45.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: So somebody will have to have stolen your phone and have a way into your, your, uh, Gmail or equivalent account.
[01:49:46.410 --> 01:49:53.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now that's assuming you don't change your passwords, but you know, there, there are many, um, uh, shortcuts that people install to make things easier.
[01:49:53.550 --> 01:49:58.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wouldn't it be great if my laptop just always automatically access this because who else is going to be using it?
[01:49:58.090 --> 01:50:04.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, if somebody else is using it, then they have access and they have permanent access to all the data that they download.
[01:50:04.910 --> 01:50:05.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: From that point.
[01:50:05.890 --> 01:50:09.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have two factor authentication, that won't happen.
[01:50:09.230 --> 01:50:10.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't mean your data is completely safe.
[01:50:10.910 --> 01:50:22.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's always the possibility of, of break-ins on the other side and, uh, all kinds of other compromises, but at least this very common way of, of getting information, getting your data will be thwarted.
[01:50:22.450 --> 01:50:23.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's widely available.
[01:50:23.710 --> 01:50:39.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's been made very, very accessible on most of, um, especially email providers like web hosting, uh, whatever provider, uh, you chosen, they are, um, they really encourage people to take it, take advantage of this banking sites, stuff, anything that is,
[01:50:39.730 --> 01:50:40.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: uh, critical.
[01:50:40.570 --> 01:50:42.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because they know how insecure they are.
[01:50:42.290 --> 01:50:43.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: They really do.
[01:50:43.570 --> 01:50:51.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it just, it makes it, uh, a little bit, uh, more complicated for you to be exposed in the way you described like an X.
[01:50:51.690 --> 01:50:52.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my gosh, I can't imagine.
[01:50:53.090 --> 01:50:54.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it's really, it's a nightmare.
[01:50:54.770 --> 01:51:03.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and, and it's not like, um, uh, you know, if, if you cut off access, they didn't already get all the information because you store so much on their servers.
[01:51:03.950 --> 01:51:05.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I don't understand that.
[01:51:05.650 --> 01:51:13.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I mean, at least look, if you're not running your own email server, fine, but you can at least download the emails to your local machine.
[01:51:13.930 --> 01:51:17.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's no reason they all have to be on there for years and years and years.
[01:51:17.430 --> 01:51:18.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, not fine.
[01:51:18.570 --> 01:51:19.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to interrupt you.
[01:51:19.470 --> 01:51:20.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: I totally disagree.
[01:51:21.230 --> 01:51:22.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not fine.
[01:51:22.510 --> 01:51:37.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: More people need to do it so that it continues to be developed and it can be, uh, treated seriously by the hegemons and the, the web mail providers that do crazy things that make, you know, email that isn't from one of their services harder.
[01:51:38.210 --> 01:51:39.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: They even compete.
[01:51:39.450 --> 01:51:48.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think Yahoo would get in little tiffs with, uh, uh, Google's mail service and they would, they would refuse mail or, or, or have it not work.
[01:51:48.370 --> 01:51:55.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: The less people that get curious about this stuff, the more those alternatives are going to be the only things left.
[01:51:55.510 --> 01:51:58.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it is, yes, it's work.
[01:51:58.550 --> 01:51:59.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's harder.
[01:51:59.610 --> 01:52:08.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: It might, uh, take some reading or, um, a whole group of people to read and try to figure out what works best for their organization.
[01:52:08.030 --> 01:52:16.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you end up, you end up in a better place in the longterm and you're not, you're not trusting a third-party by default.
[01:52:16.890 --> 01:52:22.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're trusting your gumption and know-how and, and, and, and maybe even building a community along the way.
[01:52:23.150 --> 01:52:33.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I cannot more strongly encourage people to do it for fun, do it alongside your, your other accounts, just to see if you can do it.
[01:52:34.150 --> 01:52:42.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I, I remember when, when, uh, building machines and, and installing OS's and stuff was a little bit more complicated than it is now.
[01:52:42.450 --> 01:52:47.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I would challenge myself just to see if I could do it with whatever OS.
[01:52:47.390 --> 01:52:49.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't even make an account on the OS's.
[01:52:49.330 --> 01:52:57.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I would just try it out to see if I get hardware to accept, uh, whatever distribution I was interested in the time and to see what it was like.
[01:52:57.970 --> 01:53:09.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is a curiosity and experimentation that is so needed and getting, getting people who have no idea about what I'm talking about in front of a machine and, and trying this stuff out.
[01:53:09.190 --> 01:53:09.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[01:53:09.550 --> 01:53:31.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe before they're on some track or some formal, um, a career path just to experiment and to know, and it's empowering to know that you can host something yourself or to build a computer program yourself or to, um, uh, uh, run a web service or something independent of other people.
[01:53:31.690 --> 01:53:32.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's incredibly empowering.
[01:53:32.870 --> 01:53:43.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think we've, we've, we have taken convenience, uh, so often in, in, um, to our own detriment, to our own, to real detriment.
[01:53:43.050 --> 01:53:45.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not good for our edification.
[01:53:45.670 --> 01:53:57.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: We lack control and configurability, customization, the granularity of, of what is accepted and what isn't as a regular expression or an actual character.
[01:53:57.890 --> 01:54:04.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: All of these things you, you, you display, you put in someone else's, um, control and they make those decisions for you.
[01:54:05.110 --> 01:54:05.110]  Right.
[01:54:05.330 --> 01:54:11.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we are at a point in time where there, there are so many other parts of the world that do not operate this way.
[01:54:11.730 --> 01:54:12.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to get with a program.
[01:54:12.810 --> 01:54:14.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to encourage this stuff.
[01:54:15.010 --> 01:54:21.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to, um, be much more capable and less dependent with technology.
[01:54:21.430 --> 01:54:22.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: And don't be afraid to break things.
[01:54:23.150 --> 01:54:24.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it's, it's your machine.
[01:54:24.870 --> 01:54:25.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, okay.
[01:54:25.610 --> 01:54:29.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: What happens if I, if I do this, if I run this program, okay.
[01:54:29.610 --> 01:54:32.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I, I, I completely nuked the operating system.
[01:54:32.430 --> 01:54:33.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll just reinstall it.
[01:54:33.890 --> 01:54:34.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, that's how you learn.
[01:54:35.070 --> 01:54:41.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's how you learn by, by experimenting, occasionally doing the wrong thing and doing it better the next time.
[01:54:41.110 --> 01:54:57.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can't tell you how many times a failure seeing what it looks like when something goes completely wrong on, uh, uh, an operating system, seeing some weird part of a, of a BIOS or, or, or, I mean, that's just little, uh, maintenance things.
[01:54:57.430 --> 01:55:12.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there's so much more in, um, um, computing and telephony and, and programming, but those things build your understanding of anticipating how a machine or a system might fail or might work under different scenarios.
[01:55:12.270 --> 01:55:29.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you've seen those things, if you've recovered from those things, you are much better equipped to build and design and, um, uh, take on harder challenges and, and, um, more complex things with the confidence that you can possibly recover from it,
[01:55:29.330 --> 01:55:34.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: or that you can anticipate a scenario where something might go wrong and plan for it.
[01:55:34.830 --> 01:55:35.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right, right.
[01:55:35.430 --> 01:55:36.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't just blindly follow the rules.
[01:55:37.170 --> 01:55:38.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Know why you're following the rules.
[01:55:38.610 --> 01:55:40.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Know what the consequences are of not following the rules.
[01:55:40.810 --> 01:55:41.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And see value.
[01:55:41.630 --> 01:55:41.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:55:41.970 --> 01:55:48.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: See value in, in exploring the technology, not just, you know, consuming it.
[01:55:48.970 --> 01:55:51.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what is it doing for me at this moment?
[01:55:51.690 --> 01:55:51.690]  Right.
[01:55:51.690 --> 01:55:55.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: But see, now we have the freedom to, to be able to do these things locally on our own machines.
[01:55:55.570 --> 01:56:03.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: So we're not hurting anybody by, by trying, uh, uh, a certain command structures that would crash a system somewhere else.
[01:56:03.530 --> 01:56:08.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, but yes, as you say, we, you learn more about the design, about how to make things better.
[01:56:09.110 --> 01:56:10.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, that's what it's all about.
[01:56:10.710 --> 01:56:16.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you just blindly follow the instructions, you're never really learning anything about how the systems work.
[01:56:16.290 --> 01:56:23.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that makes it, uh, so that you're completely under somebody else's control and, uh, you have to accept whatever decisions they make.
[01:56:24.110 --> 01:56:26.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, they're often not the decisions that you want.
[01:56:27.270 --> 01:56:27.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:56:27.810 --> 01:56:28.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're worse off.
[01:56:28.590 --> 01:56:31.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: You, you end up with, with less in the end.
[01:56:31.130 --> 01:56:41.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's, there's so many benefits to that independence and confidence and, and, um, yeah, it's, it's a whole, uh, passionate area of interest that I would love to go into.
[01:56:41.990 --> 01:56:45.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think this is an excellent stopping point for this week's overtime.
[01:56:45.490 --> 01:56:48.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alex, did you have anything that you wanted to add in these closing moments?
[01:56:49.390 --> 01:56:52.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, just, um, yeah.
[01:56:52.470 --> 01:56:53.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening, everybody.
[01:56:54.130 --> 01:56:56.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, we'll talk to you all again soon.
[01:56:57.090 --> 01:57:00.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can write to us, oth@2600.com.
[01:57:00.910 --> 01:57:04.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you can also, um, um, register your meeting.
[01:57:04.130 --> 01:57:20.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you want to have a 2600 meeting this coming Friday, first Friday of the month, uh, write to us meetings at 2600.com or go to the website, uh, 2600.com/meetings to see if you're already listed, or you can use Twitter and send a direct message to 2600 meetings.
[01:57:21.330 --> 01:57:25.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, the folks there will be happy to respond and help get your meeting started.
[01:57:25.990 --> 01:57:26.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:57:26.530 --> 01:57:27.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's, that's it then.
[01:57:28.050 --> 01:57:31.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks everyone for calling and listening.
[01:57:32.810 --> 01:57:36.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think we're still at hacker radio show on Twitter.
[01:57:36.730 --> 01:57:37.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's all right.
[01:57:37.190 --> 01:57:37.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's all right.
[01:57:37.690 --> 01:57:38.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Twitter along.
[01:57:38.430 --> 01:57:44.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, of course, 2600.com for, uh, the latest news and information about our next show.
[01:57:44.570 --> 01:57:45.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[01:57:45.730 --> 01:57:46.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Night, everybody.