Off The Hook - 2022-11-30

[00:02.620 --> 00:12.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: The previous program was Economic Update with Professor Richard Wolfe, heard Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:12.860 --> 00:22.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: Stay tuned for Off The Hook, and it's all here at WBAI New York, 99.5 FM, and WBAI.org online.
[00:23.300 --> 00:24.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Stay tuned.
[00:33.470 --> 00:34.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening, everyone.
[00:34.630 --> 00:36.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is WBAI New York.
[00:37.010 --> 00:42.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Stay tuned for a special edition of Off The Hook, as we remember our friend Jim.
[02:12.660 --> 02:14.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:14.460 --> 02:15.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:16.080 --> 02:17.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein over here.
[02:18.220 --> 02:19.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have Kyle.
[02:20.680 --> 02:21.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, I'm here.
[02:22.560 --> 02:24.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: In the Skype line, we have Rob T. Firefly.
[02:25.660 --> 02:26.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[02:26.860 --> 02:27.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have Gila.
[02:28.060 --> 02:28.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[02:28.840 --> 02:29.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we have Alex.
[02:32.830 --> 02:48.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And as you may have surmised from the beginning of the show, this is a sad episode, because we're mourning the passing of our friend Jim, who has been part of the show in one way or another since early 90s.
[02:49.010 --> 02:53.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: And quite a history, quite a lot to remember.
[02:53.730 --> 03:03.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to be taking a bit of a trip down memory lane, playing some clips and talking about Jim a little bit this hour.
[03:03.790 --> 03:06.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then at 8 o'clock, we'll be over on YouTube for Overtime.
[03:08.150 --> 03:13.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a chance for you to call in, share your thoughts, your memories, and feelings.
[03:15.450 --> 03:19.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess, before we play some of the clips, let's open it up.
[03:19.170 --> 03:21.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody want to say anything?
[03:21.510 --> 03:23.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Jim passed away on Thursday.
[03:25.150 --> 03:26.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: He'd been ill for quite some time.
[03:27.010 --> 03:46.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: And as many of you know, he suffered a stroke, I guess, 15 years ago, and has been living with that, the debilitating stroke all that time, but still managing to be a part of our world, even coming to the radio station, and just never detaching.
[03:46.430 --> 03:49.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was just so admirable.
[03:52.810 --> 03:59.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think this is really part of who Jim was as a person.
[03:59.330 --> 04:06.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think a lot of his identity was being part of the hacker culture and was always being present.
[04:06.250 --> 04:22.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it's a real testament to his fortitude and his indomitable spirit that he had persisted in engaging with us in the radio show and being part of the radio show and hanging out during the radio show, after the radio show, coming to dinner, doing all the things that he did.
[04:23.490 --> 04:25.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he could barely talk.
[04:25.210 --> 04:32.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you mentioned he had a stroke, a manual, but I think, you know, it's worth going into a bit, you know, what that stroke did to him.
[04:35.890 --> 04:53.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, one thing it didn't do, one thing it didn't do to him was affect his mind as far as enthusiasm and interest in things, you know, and just basically ways of, of just being a part of it all.
[04:54.170 --> 05:00.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I can't imagine the hell it must have been to be trapped in that world where you want to express yourself and you're not able to.
[05:00.990 --> 05:04.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so many people have that hell to deal with.
[05:04.690 --> 05:15.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: So uh, it took a tremendous amount of strength for him to, um, just to live his life, you know, with, with, with such, such an incredible handicap.
[05:15.970 --> 05:21.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, of course, you know, there's, there's the gym before the stroke that we all remember as well.
[05:21.890 --> 05:28.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And for those of you who don't, uh, who are new to the, to the, um, radio show, I'd like to share some of that with you.
[05:28.990 --> 05:31.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Kyle, I think you're remembering something right now.
[05:32.570 --> 05:56.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like I can, sorry, I can hear his voice just, um, when you mentioned the radio show and I think so many people have, have, um, thought of him and how prominent and fun and his distinctive laugh and just enthusiasm and, and joy in the discussion and the glee of just,
[05:56.090 --> 05:59.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: uh, wherever the conversation goes.
[06:00.110 --> 06:00.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[06:01.070 --> 06:13.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: That, that, that certainly in, uh, in, in, in mixing it up a bit, you know, in, in, in saying the things that someone else wouldn't say, or just getting involved in an argument like we do here on the show and enjoying the process.
[06:13.770 --> 06:14.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we sure enjoyed his company.
[06:15.090 --> 06:15.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[06:15.250 --> 06:15.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Rob.
[06:16.750 --> 06:17.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[06:17.450 --> 06:24.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I, I, I'm very fortunate to consider him one of the oldest friends I made in this community.
[06:25.170 --> 06:28.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think that's something that a lot of people are saying.
[06:28.350 --> 06:31.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sure it's something that's true of any of us here on this program.
[06:31.530 --> 06:39.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, uh, those who've been on the program, um, over the years, uh, who are no longer, but he, he was just, it seems like he was always there.
[06:39.990 --> 06:44.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Like, uh, like he came with the venue and he was so welcoming.
[06:44.210 --> 06:48.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was one of the first people that welcomed me into the 2600 meetings when I started going.
[06:48.390 --> 06:50.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I've heard that from some other friends of ours as well.
[06:51.470 --> 06:57.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it was just, he was such a warm and encouraging presence just to hang out with, just to be friends with.
[06:58.330 --> 07:00.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, it was, it was a pleasure and an honor.
[07:01.030 --> 07:05.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, it was, it was a joy to, to spend time with him.
[07:05.530 --> 07:06.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's, let's go over some of that history.
[07:07.010 --> 07:17.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, because, um, it was an interesting history and it started on, uh, April 13th, 19, I'm sorry, um, August 13th, 1994.
[07:17.990 --> 07:30.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, when Jim presented, uh, a very controversial talk at the very first hope conference, in fact, after Robert Steele had given his keynote, um, Jim was the first speaker.
[07:31.310 --> 07:32.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, he wasn't known as Jim.
[07:32.930 --> 07:36.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was known as Red Balaclava because he was trying to hide his identity.
[07:36.390 --> 07:42.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was a very, very, uh, poor job of hiding his identity because he, he was about six foot five and, and, and very thin.
[07:42.870 --> 07:45.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, there weren't any other people like that at the conference.
[07:45.170 --> 07:49.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: So when he wasn't presenting his talk, it was obvious who it was that had just presented that talk.
[07:50.490 --> 07:54.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: But that's just part of the wackiness that Jim, uh, that Jim personified.
[07:54.530 --> 08:03.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, he, he gave, um, uh, a fascinating, uh, discussion on, on the, uh, newly introduced MetroCard, uh, to the New York City, uh, transit authority.
[08:04.230 --> 08:21.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, at that conference and at the succeeding conference, uh, in 1997, beyond hope, uh, he was the person, um, that basically gave out the information and, and talked about the things that, uh, that others did not want to talk about.
[08:21.610 --> 08:30.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Certainly others in the MTA did not want to have this revealed, but the first time he came into the station actually was on November 7th, 1995.
[08:31.390 --> 08:35.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, no, I have this wrong, uh, May 17th, 1995.
[08:35.970 --> 08:46.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and, uh, he's talking about a different, um, a different subject here, basically explaining this new concept known as web pages.
[08:47.410 --> 08:51.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, it's also the only time he gave his real name on the air.
[08:51.470 --> 08:57.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you could tell after he did it that he wasn't sure if he should give his real name, but he was just kind of put on the spot at that moment.
[08:57.210 --> 09:00.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's, let's just go back to 1995 and hear that.
[09:00.610 --> 09:02.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have some web designers here, don't we?
[09:02.770 --> 09:03.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[09:03.330 --> 09:03.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[09:03.830 --> 09:07.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Someone, someone come up and tell us what webs are like, what, what a web page is like.
[09:07.310 --> 09:08.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: What can you do with a web page?
[09:09.310 --> 09:13.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Try to move the microphone as much as possible to make, uh, all the noise you possibly can.
[09:14.030 --> 09:14.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, go ahead.
[09:14.990 --> 09:15.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[09:15.410 --> 09:16.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: What is a web page?
[09:16.310 --> 09:16.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Who are you first?
[09:17.310 --> 09:20.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, well, uh, my name is Jim Vicente.
[09:20.290 --> 09:25.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm, uh, half owner and principal of, uh, Esoteric Resources Incorporated.
[09:25.990 --> 09:31.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're a, uh, computer training, documentation, and web page writing firm here in New York.
[09:32.150 --> 09:36.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, we're also a couple of ex-hackers, but we won't talk about our sorted past.
[09:37.250 --> 09:39.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, what is a web page?
[09:39.430 --> 09:39.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: A web?
[09:40.150 --> 09:45.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: The World Wide Web is a way of graphically accessing information on the Internet.
[09:46.070 --> 09:56.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, if you have what's, uh, known as a shell account, you have what looks like, uh, just a text-based, uh, method of looking at the information.
[09:56.090 --> 10:01.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: It looks like those old teletypes you see in your typical old science fiction or World War 3 movie.
[10:02.050 --> 10:05.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, except now it's on a screen instead of on an endless scroll of paper.
[10:06.030 --> 10:15.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: What the World Wide Web does is it puts up on your PC or Mac screen, uh, whatever pictures, uh, the person who wrote that page wants you to see.
[10:16.150 --> 10:17.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, it looks a lot better.
[10:18.270 --> 10:20.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, you're able to see whatever they want to put up.
[10:21.030 --> 10:30.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can also, uh, if you have the right viewer, you can also see little movies, uh, download sound clips, access sound clips off their web page.
[10:31.430 --> 10:41.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, there are literally hundreds of thousands of them out there, and, um, it's, uh, it's sort of like what the printing press was in 1500.
[10:41.150 --> 10:47.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a new technology that gives everyone the power to put up whatever information they want.
[10:48.230 --> 11:04.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, again, that was a clip from 1995 where Jim and his, uh, future wife, Pam came to the studio and, um, um, explained some of, uh, technology from, uh, from an insider perspective as someone who was involved in the World Wide Web, which was very exciting back then.
[11:05.330 --> 11:09.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, let's fast forward a little bit to 2001, uh, September 25th, 2001 to be specific.
[11:10.470 --> 11:13.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, that was, I believe the first day we were allowed back on the air.
[11:13.790 --> 11:17.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: It might've been the second, the second week after 9-11 that we were allowed back on.
[11:17.230 --> 11:22.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but it was the first time that, um, uh, that Jim was part of the discussion.
[11:23.550 --> 11:29.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, this is basically a recounting of his experience, uh, on 9-11.
[11:37.580 --> 11:38.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Jim, Jim is here too.
[11:39.500 --> 11:39.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[11:40.180 --> 11:40.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: How you doing?
[11:40.660 --> 11:43.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: You were, you were, you had a close call on, uh, on that Tuesday.
[11:43.920 --> 11:53.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah, I, uh, I did something I seldom do, which is, um, uh, I went banking at a branch that was not where I normally go.
[11:53.960 --> 11:57.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think I've been there, oh, over the last 15 years, like five times.
[11:57.680 --> 12:00.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I had to run a couple of errands in lower Manhattan.
[12:01.660 --> 12:08.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I got off the, uh, R train, uh, still the R at that time, at Cortland Street.
[12:09.180 --> 12:13.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the funny thing is, I had heard a noise when we were going through Rector, and I couldn't place it.
[12:13.920 --> 12:17.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: I figured it was a train on the other track starting, you know, how that sometimes happens.
[12:19.800 --> 12:23.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I get out of Cortland Street, just south of the Millennium Hotel.
[12:23.540 --> 12:25.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I can't remember what street it is.
[12:25.300 --> 12:29.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the exit I got off was on the, uh, across the street.
[12:29.560 --> 12:32.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's across Church Street from the World Trade Center site.
[12:34.600 --> 12:37.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I get up and, uh, I look around.
[12:37.140 --> 12:41.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Instead of people walking around, people are pretty much standing still and they're looking up.
[12:41.680 --> 12:43.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, of course, what do you do in that case?
[12:43.580 --> 12:44.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: You look up.
[12:44.920 --> 12:48.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And there's a lot of smoke coming from the top of the North Tower of the World Trade Center.
[12:49.880 --> 12:52.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And essentially I said, holy four-letter word.
[12:54.480 --> 12:55.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Stopped for a minute.
[12:56.740 --> 12:58.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Walked the block north to get a better view.
[13:00.120 --> 13:01.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Asked somebody what happened.
[13:01.640 --> 13:05.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, you know, sirens are going off and, uh, the fire and police are streaming in.
[13:06.540 --> 13:08.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: And somebody says, plane just hit.
[13:09.160 --> 13:10.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: I said, what?
[13:10.700 --> 13:12.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Plane just hit the World Trade Center.
[13:12.540 --> 13:14.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I said, holy four-letter word once again.
[13:16.380 --> 13:28.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I remembered that Tom Clancy novel, uh, the title of which escapes me, uh, from several years ago, which I read, uh, the last few pages over someone's shoulder once.
[13:29.260 --> 13:43.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Never read the rest of the book, but, uh, in the book, a crazed Japanese pilot, uh, puts us, I believe a 747 loaded with explosives, uh, into the, uh, Capitol building during the State of the Union, uh, address.
[13:44.200 --> 13:45.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I had read that.
[13:46.720 --> 13:53.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I had, uh, I had been working, uh, in the area eight years ago, uh, for the 93 attack.
[13:54.640 --> 13:56.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I worked nights usually.
[13:56.440 --> 14:03.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I had got off in that morning and, uh, was still in the neighborhood when that happened.
[14:04.200 --> 14:05.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I remembered that.
[14:05.320 --> 14:12.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: I remembered that they said that they, they wanted to take these buildings down as a sign, you know, against American imperialism and all that sort of stuff.
[14:14.240 --> 14:17.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I put two and two together and I just headed north.
[14:18.200 --> 14:20.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I figured, uh, the trains are not going to be running.
[14:21.160 --> 14:24.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe not now, but definitely sooner or later, I'm going to get on them.
[14:24.500 --> 14:25.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to get a few stops.
[14:25.320 --> 14:25.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're going to stop.
[14:26.000 --> 14:28.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I figured, get over the bridge into Brooklyn.
[14:28.900 --> 14:31.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Cause I figured, I figured there were going to be 10 more planes.
[14:31.900 --> 14:39.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Cause I figured that what they were doing is they're going to try slicing the towers up and it would take two, three, four planes per tower to do that.
[14:40.020 --> 14:44.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: You had this all figured out after one plane that there were going to be multiple planes or was this after the second plane?
[14:44.900 --> 14:46.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, this was after the first plane.
[14:46.180 --> 14:50.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, I, cause I remembered the Tom Clancy thing and I looked up and what you saw was a hole in the thing.
[14:50.740 --> 14:55.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: You didn't see like the thing teetering like, like when you take a chunk out of a tree.
[14:56.640 --> 15:00.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I figured, you know, they always wanted to, to take the whole thing down.
[15:00.980 --> 15:03.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I figured, well, one plane isn't going to work.
[15:03.400 --> 15:05.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: They weren't going, if they're going to try again, they were going to do it.
[15:06.380 --> 15:08.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they weren't going to do it by half measures.
[15:08.220 --> 15:10.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I figured they're going to be a, you know, half dozen or more planes.
[15:11.500 --> 15:12.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I figured...
[15:12.580 --> 15:13.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it was close.
[15:13.460 --> 15:14.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was close to a half dozen planes.
[15:15.300 --> 15:15.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Overall.
[15:15.840 --> 15:15.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[15:16.100 --> 15:19.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: What I'm surprised about was that the subway system made it.
[15:19.100 --> 15:21.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, you know a lot about the subway system, obviously.
[15:21.600 --> 15:24.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: What, any, any trains lost or any, any damage of...
[15:24.760 --> 15:29.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: As far as, as far as I know, no train, uh, was lost.
[15:29.860 --> 15:39.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, station-wise, uh, Cortland and Point South on the NNR closed mostly because of debris above it.
[15:40.660 --> 15:47.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Cortland on the one and nine is, uh, closed because of the towers pretty much falling into it.
[15:48.620 --> 15:52.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, points South on the one and nine are, are relatively intact.
[15:53.220 --> 15:54.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the subways were evacuated.
[15:55.300 --> 15:55.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah.
[15:56.120 --> 15:56.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Apparently so.
[15:57.040 --> 16:01.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, uh, uh, I didn't get on a subway, uh, later that day.
[16:01.300 --> 16:03.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hightailed it into Brooklyn and, and got on a bus.
[16:04.480 --> 16:07.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: At what point did you, uh, find out the second tower was hit?
[16:07.820 --> 16:14.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I was, uh, on the bridge and, uh, saw it.
[16:14.920 --> 16:15.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it happened.
[16:15.820 --> 16:16.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[16:17.820 --> 16:20.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, that, that speeded me up even more.
[16:21.640 --> 16:30.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're listening to our late friend, Jim, part of, um, off the hook for many, many years who, uh, passed away on, uh, Thursday.
[16:30.460 --> 16:48.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, we're going to move ahead to, um, something that's kind of inevitable when, um, you annoy, uh, a big agency such as the MTA as Jim did with his hope talks and, um, um, basically talking on the radio and various other places about the security issues.
[16:49.360 --> 16:55.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, they indicted him and this is how we found out on February 26, 2002.
[16:56.020 --> 16:57.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, let's see.
[16:57.980 --> 17:06.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's pretty much, uh, all we have time for except for one last thing from Jim who has come in with a startling bit of news.
[17:06.710 --> 17:09.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Jim, why don't you tell us quickly in the last, uh, two minutes of the show.
[17:09.750 --> 17:12.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, apologies to all the listeners for not being able to take phone calls.
[17:12.280 --> 17:16.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: We will do that next week and, um, and, uh, catch up hopefully.
[17:16.620 --> 17:16.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Jim.
[17:17.300 --> 17:26.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, uh, to quickly give you a little history, the second worst kept secret in hacking is the fact that, uh, I, Jeopardy Jim, am also Red Balaclava.
[17:26.460 --> 17:32.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and some of you may remember me from, uh, Hope in 1994 and beyond Hope in 1997.
[17:32.990 --> 17:36.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Suffice it to say that I've been indicted and arrested.
[17:37.160 --> 17:42.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, consequently, uh, I'm going to need some assistance from the hacking community.
[17:42.840 --> 17:44.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm currently, uh, jobless.
[17:44.860 --> 17:47.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I need to find a criminal lawyer.
[17:48.100 --> 17:59.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, there's some other things that, uh, people even, uh, not in the immediate New York area could, uh, could do that would take very little effort on their part and be very useful.
[18:00.360 --> 18:03.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, can you tell us what, uh, what they're charging you with?
[18:03.160 --> 18:10.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're charging me with, uh, grand larceny in the fourth degree, uh, as I like to call it for MetroCard funnies.
[18:10.730 --> 18:17.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, essentially, uh, I've been a, uh, railroad clerk slash station agent for the transit authority for some time.
[18:17.300 --> 18:23.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: I spoke about MetroCards at the Two Hopes, wrote a couple of, uh, articles for, uh, 2600 magazine.
[18:24.380 --> 18:36.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, some people, uh, have noticed that I, uh, have not given any concrete, uh, advice on how to hack MetroCards, just, you know, a general overview.
[18:37.060 --> 18:43.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was very careful to just, uh, disseminate what I had picked up from the newspapers, nothing I had picked up in-house.
[18:43.820 --> 18:46.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but apparently they're gunning for me because of that.
[18:46.540 --> 18:47.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: It took them a long time.
[18:47.500 --> 18:50.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: They never did it directly, but, uh, that's the cause.
[18:50.120 --> 18:50.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was 1994.
[18:51.440 --> 18:51.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[18:51.800 --> 18:52.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the first time.
[18:52.920 --> 18:53.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, they have long memories.
[18:55.140 --> 19:07.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and among other things, I want, uh, volunteers who are willing to go and listen to old, uh, off the hooks and make, since, uh, roughly April or June, May, June of 94.
[19:08.140 --> 19:10.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I have a fairly distinctive voice.
[19:11.040 --> 19:19.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you can find anything I've said on MetroCards or anything I've said at all and, uh, and write it down, uh, this will be organized.
[19:19.580 --> 19:22.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll be at the, uh, the 2600 meeting this Friday in New York.
[19:23.700 --> 19:27.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: And eventually you get a website mailing list going to coordinate this.
[19:27.740 --> 19:29.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: My trial date is the 22nd of April.
[19:30.600 --> 19:32.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now that was from, uh, 2002.
[19:32.680 --> 19:37.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now this case, uh, followed Jim around for the next year or so.
[19:37.720 --> 19:43.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there was this, um, really interesting, uh, episode where, uh, Jim went to court.
[19:43.820 --> 19:48.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: It turns out that, um, he had missed, uh, a court date and had not responded in a timely manner.
[19:49.000 --> 19:50.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: So he was actually arrested.
[19:51.020 --> 19:53.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, spent two nights in the tombs.
[19:54.460 --> 19:57.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Here, um, we learn about this on the radio for the first time.
[19:58.640 --> 20:19.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, his, his remarkable sense of, uh, of humor in such a situation and just, um, uh, basically looking for those little things that people who are not hackers would not look for talking about history, talking about, um, uh, technology, uh, while going through a hellish experience.
[20:19.980 --> 20:24.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, this happened on, uh, or this aired on November 20th, 2002.
[20:25.220 --> 20:29.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: So were you in, in, in, in jail last week while we were wondering what happened to you?
[20:29.480 --> 20:29.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[20:29.820 --> 20:30.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah.
[20:30.220 --> 20:30.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Couldn't make a phone call.
[20:31.000 --> 20:37.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was, I really wanted, I really wanted to make a phone call, uh, collect to the station.
[20:38.020 --> 20:42.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Actually, uh, I, I had a calling card I memorized and I had a touch on phone.
[20:42.560 --> 20:47.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think you can use calling cards from, from, uh, well, it depends on what sort of phone you are.
[20:47.400 --> 20:57.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, in the original holding cell, yes, it's a regular, uh, payphone and you can call collect, you can use coins if you have them and you can, uh, now the tombs are down in what?
[20:57.720 --> 20:58.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Chinatown.
[20:58.400 --> 21:00.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, they're, they're right next to the criminal court building.
[21:00.880 --> 21:16.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're, they're, the address is actually 125 white street and, uh, it's connected via a bridge, uh, nicknamed the bridge of size after the, uh, the famous thing in Venice in the, uh, medieval times connecting the prison to the Doge's palace.
[21:17.000 --> 21:24.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: The Doge was the head of Venice and all his political enemies would go before him and then he'd just send them over this bridge to the prison.
[21:24.420 --> 21:26.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: You must have spent hours discussing the history and, uh, the, the...
[21:26.960 --> 21:27.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[21:27.800 --> 21:31.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, I, I state to myself, I figured that was, uh, much safer.
[21:32.100 --> 21:32.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[21:33.020 --> 21:33.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's horrible.
[21:33.920 --> 21:36.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, so two nights that they kept you there.
[21:36.680 --> 21:40.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, any, anything happen worthy of note other than being bored to death?
[21:41.260 --> 21:43.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, a lot of bored to death.
[21:44.180 --> 21:50.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, things, things that a hacker mind would see inside the tombs that perhaps we might appreciate.
[21:50.860 --> 21:53.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I, I was, I was trying to think of that.
[21:53.660 --> 21:54.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, uh, there's not much.
[21:55.160 --> 22:09.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, uh, I, uh, I, I believe that, uh, I have a greater appreciation for anybody who's been in prison or jail or worked their way out of prison or jail because I was looking around just for the hacker mind, not intending to escape.
[22:10.160 --> 22:12.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I figured I had enough trouble just missing a court appearance.
[22:12.720 --> 22:14.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Imagine the trouble I'd be in if I escaped.
[22:15.300 --> 22:20.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, just looking to see how feasible that was, and that was pretty damn unlikely.
[22:21.300 --> 22:26.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, all these guys who take a spoon and chisel through over six months or two years or whatever.
[22:26.920 --> 22:27.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[22:27.200 --> 22:27.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Amazing.
[22:29.360 --> 22:31.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is just for missing a court date?
[22:31.540 --> 22:32.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[22:32.240 --> 22:32.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it gets worse.
[22:32.520 --> 22:34.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: For showing up and saying that you missed the court date.
[22:34.720 --> 22:35.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, no, no, no.
[22:35.940 --> 22:41.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was, uh, uh, not getting back to them in the time that they wanted, obviously, on my lawyer's part.
[22:41.860 --> 22:42.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[22:42.600 --> 22:46.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and like I said, it gets worse, of course.
[22:47.100 --> 22:47.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[22:47.460 --> 22:48.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to talk about the worst part?
[22:48.640 --> 22:48.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, sure.
[22:48.840 --> 22:49.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about that.
[22:49.320 --> 22:49.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: We only have an hour.
[22:50.340 --> 22:51.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[22:51.300 --> 22:52.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I'll make it really quick.
[22:52.520 --> 22:52.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[22:52.740 --> 23:00.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: My lawyer, who is not happy with the fact that I, I haven't paid him aside from the initial, uh, amount, is now taking himself off the case.
[23:00.600 --> 23:08.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, I'm one step above a public defender, something called an 18B, which is a, a real attorney that donates or is forced to donate.
[23:08.680 --> 23:09.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not sure how it works.
[23:09.780 --> 23:13.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Some time to, uh, technically, I'm an indigent defendant.
[23:14.760 --> 23:14.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[23:15.000 --> 23:18.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, so I've, uh, I've gone down in the quality of, uh, of my counsel.
[23:20.560 --> 23:22.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I have, uh...
[23:22.080 --> 23:25.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you can't have been too high in that regard anyway, being, winding up in jail.
[23:25.920 --> 23:26.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they, they...
[23:26.560 --> 23:27.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good point.
[23:27.520 --> 23:27.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[23:28.400 --> 23:29.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can't get much worse than that.
[23:30.060 --> 23:30.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that is...
[23:30.480 --> 23:31.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's supposed to keep you out of jail.
[23:31.340 --> 23:40.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yeah, but on the other hand, uh, like I said, it's my responsibility if I had just read the damn piece of paper right, I would have made the appearance the day before.
[23:41.160 --> 23:45.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, but, but you see, when you have a lawyer, they're supposed to also call you and tell you, remind you of things.
[23:45.400 --> 23:52.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I, I appeared in a deposition last week for the whole DECSS case, yet again, in front of the DVD Copy Control Association.
[23:52.960 --> 23:59.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was reminded constantly by my lawyer that, uh, you have to be here at this time, you know, take this bus to get there, et cetera.
[23:59.860 --> 24:00.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have one key difference.
[24:01.520 --> 24:02.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're able to pay your lawyer.
[24:04.380 --> 24:08.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, actually, that's not entirely true, but, uh, we'll, we'll get into that.
[24:08.860 --> 24:12.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a, well, it's a, it's a special case, a special case.
[24:12.640 --> 24:13.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[24:13.620 --> 24:17.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, Whereas me, I'm just another peon in the system.
[24:17.400 --> 24:18.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: That should not enter into it.
[24:18.720 --> 24:21.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Payments should never be, just like with medical care.
[24:21.240 --> 24:30.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Payments should not, I mean, a lot of things should be, but you and I know that they're different, but this is, this is what I mean when I say that certain things should not be treated as commodities.
[24:31.160 --> 24:38.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you should be, you should have the right to legal, uh, competent legal, uh, representation and to competent medical care.
[24:39.280 --> 24:48.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, you know, all that, but I'm just going to get off on this, uh, you know, my, my, my vision of the world, which you probably disagree with, which is rather ironic.
[24:48.960 --> 24:51.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah, it is, isn't it?
[24:52.380 --> 24:52.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[24:53.540 --> 25:04.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, from, uh, November of 2002, just an example of how Jim was somebody you could just talk about anything with and, and talk about anything with for hours and hours and hours.
[25:04.640 --> 25:06.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: He made it all so interesting.
[25:06.220 --> 25:11.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: His, um, legal problems came to a culmination February 5th, 2003.
[25:12.340 --> 25:15.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's, let's listen to what, um, what the conclusion was.
[25:16.300 --> 25:20.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, has there been any developments with, uh, various, uh, issues?
[25:20.780 --> 25:21.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah.
[25:21.380 --> 25:23.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have, we have, uh, as you know, Jim's sitting here.
[25:23.560 --> 25:24.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's got some news.
[25:24.760 --> 25:25.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[25:25.080 --> 25:25.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's hear it, Jim.
[25:25.960 --> 25:34.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I've, uh, joined, joined the ranks of the, uh, uh, uh, uh, well, I'm now a felon.
[25:34.240 --> 25:34.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's put it that way.
[25:35.360 --> 25:35.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[25:36.120 --> 25:36.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[25:36.400 --> 25:36.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Go in the club.
[25:37.400 --> 25:38.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I can't talk to you about it.
[25:38.940 --> 25:42.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, you can't, if you're a felon, you can't talk to Bernie S anymore.
[25:42.520 --> 25:46.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Ah, all right, Bernie, from now on, direct your comments away from Jim.
[25:47.300 --> 25:48.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Face the other way, I guess.
[25:49.360 --> 25:55.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Jim, I don't know if you can respond to things that Bernie says to us, or if we have to repeat everything for you.
[25:55.760 --> 25:58.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I think, I think I can probably respond to things.
[25:58.460 --> 26:00.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think we can direct things at each other.
[26:00.260 --> 26:00.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's the thing.
[26:01.840 --> 26:02.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[26:02.240 --> 26:04.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, then you, you two are no longer speaking.
[26:05.160 --> 26:05.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's all right.
[26:05.760 --> 26:12.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: What other, and how long, how long on, uh, how, how long will, uh, Jim and myself be on, uh, non-speaking terms?
[26:13.100 --> 26:13.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wonder.
[26:13.880 --> 26:16.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, Jim, I wonder how long this, uh, this will last.
[26:16.740 --> 26:20.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, well, already it's way too long for the show.
[26:20.960 --> 26:24.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, well, I get sentenced, uh, towards the end of March.
[26:24.860 --> 26:28.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I've, uh, I'm going to do five years probation, no jail time.
[26:29.240 --> 26:30.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wait, uh, I have a question though.
[26:30.800 --> 26:32.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, are you not a felon until you're sentenced?
[26:34.040 --> 26:34.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Never replied.
[26:35.680 --> 26:38.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but, um, Oh, that's a good question.
[26:38.280 --> 26:38.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Does somebody know?
[26:39.180 --> 26:42.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, are you considered a felon after the sentencing date or before this?
[26:43.240 --> 26:44.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're not a convicted felon.
[26:44.540 --> 26:45.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is she's pre-felon?
[26:46.940 --> 26:48.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, felon, felon to be.
[26:49.740 --> 26:50.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, gee.
[26:53.290 --> 26:56.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you haven't been sentenced, then I don't think you're convicted yet.
[26:56.320 --> 26:56.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[26:57.020 --> 26:57.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then we can talk.
[26:58.860 --> 27:01.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, uh, we better get five years worth in.
[27:01.400 --> 27:06.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Since I'm, since I'm a felon to be, I, I, I wonder if I can get a registry someplace like Wilmingdale's.
[27:07.680 --> 27:08.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, that's Bridesby.
[27:08.980 --> 27:09.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh.
[27:09.720 --> 27:10.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh boy.
[27:10.980 --> 27:15.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, that was something, you know, he just injected humor into every situation.
[27:15.000 --> 27:23.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: There were so many, so many instances where, you know, he could have been negative and, um, he wasn't, he wasn't.
[27:23.340 --> 27:25.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that what you guys remember, uh, from Jim?
[27:27.960 --> 27:28.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Absolutely.
[27:28.720 --> 27:38.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was, he was always, no matter what he was talking about, he always had a, a sparkling sense of humor about it, even when it was like how miserable things were for him personally, like in this case.
[27:38.820 --> 27:43.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: And man, I, I, I had so many of those long conversations about anything with him.
[27:43.820 --> 27:45.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: You could just talk to that guy forever.
[27:46.140 --> 27:46.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[27:46.780 --> 27:47.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[27:47.440 --> 27:53.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and, um, uh, Alex, I want to ask you, since you're a lawyer, let's, let's settle the question that, that, uh, uh, Jim was raising in that last excerpt.
[27:54.040 --> 27:58.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you a felon before you're sentenced or are you a felon at the point that you plead?
[27:58.700 --> 28:01.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I have been thinking about that.
[28:01.340 --> 28:09.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that you'd be a felon at the point that you pleaded because you, you admitted to doing the crime at that particular point.
[28:09.860 --> 28:21.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: You had to allocute and assuming your plea was knowing and voluntary, you committed, you, you essentially just admitted to committing a felony, which would therefore make you a felon.
[28:22.300 --> 28:30.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, I think, you know, almost, you know, tautologically in a sense, it, uh, you would be a felon at the time of pleading.
[28:31.280 --> 28:35.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: However, I can also understand the argument that it would be a conviction type thing.
[28:35.920 --> 28:36.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[28:36.040 --> 28:41.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna wind up, uh, getting on a sidetrack here, like we always do.
[28:42.200 --> 28:43.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but this show is about Jim.
[28:44.020 --> 28:45.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: So let's, let's, let's do that.
[28:45.140 --> 28:45.140]  Yeah.
[28:45.200 --> 28:50.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I do want to say something about Jim too, though, which is, um, just listening to these recordings.
[28:50.820 --> 28:54.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's so amazing to hear his voice again.
[28:54.500 --> 28:55.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's really, really fantastic.
[28:55.900 --> 29:03.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you mentioned this at the B at the outset of the episode that it was 15 years ago that he had a stroke and lost his voice.
[29:03.840 --> 29:07.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was really looking forward to tonight to hearing Jim's voice.
[29:07.240 --> 29:10.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I didn't, uh, I think I underestimated how good it would feel.
[29:10.980 --> 29:11.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[29:11.640 --> 29:11.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Gila.
[29:11.760 --> 29:12.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[29:12.920 --> 29:15.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't know Jim before.
[29:15.680 --> 29:18.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't know any of you until six years ago.
[29:18.740 --> 29:23.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I never heard Jim hold force like this.
[29:23.440 --> 29:29.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: So having the opportunity to do so tonight is just so amazing.
[29:29.480 --> 29:38.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if I could say, I'm also enjoying watching all of you listening and watching all of you remembering our friend.
[29:38.640 --> 29:42.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is this, this evening is moving on so many levels.
[29:42.420 --> 29:52.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, put on your seatbelt because we're about to delve into Jim's conservative leanings, uh, which was no, no end of entertainment for, for many of the listeners.
[29:52.300 --> 29:56.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and of course, um, uh, fodder for all kinds of spirited discussions.
[29:56.640 --> 29:59.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, here, uh, it's April 9th, 2003.
[30:00.360 --> 30:02.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: The second Gulf War had just begun.
[30:02.540 --> 30:03.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a magical period.
[30:04.460 --> 30:08.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: We, we had some really rousing discussions with differing opinions.
[30:09.120 --> 30:15.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And here, Jim explains, uh, well, he defends his position, explains why he takes the views.
[30:15.600 --> 30:16.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: He does take a listen.
[30:17.460 --> 30:18.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, wait a moment.
[30:18.300 --> 30:18.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait a moment.
[30:19.700 --> 30:28.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: As, as an ex chemistry major, I'll tell you just one thing, which is that you can easily make, uh, nerve agents out of pesticides.
[30:28.700 --> 30:29.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[30:29.220 --> 30:29.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: What?
[30:29.520 --> 30:31.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: The Iraqis aren't supposed to have pesticides now?
[30:31.240 --> 30:31.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, no.
[30:31.720 --> 30:37.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if they have an outlandish amount of pesticides and no pesticide exporting industry, then you get suspicious.
[30:38.360 --> 30:38.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[30:38.880 --> 30:39.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
[30:39.720 --> 30:40.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's a bit of a reach.
[30:40.980 --> 30:41.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you know.
[30:41.360 --> 30:42.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, it's not a bit of a reach.
[30:42.360 --> 30:45.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you want to hide it, you, you build up your own pesticide industry.
[30:46.160 --> 30:47.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, no, but, but this wasn't a forum.
[30:47.880 --> 30:48.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Jim.
[30:48.200 --> 30:50.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't an agricultural area where they tend to use pesticides.
[30:50.580 --> 30:50.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[30:51.120 --> 30:53.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like I said, I'm willing to say it's a maybe.
[30:53.460 --> 30:55.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the point is, I, I look at it this way.
[30:56.000 --> 30:57.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a black man who lives in Holland.
[30:57.580 --> 31:04.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I have seen police officers do what they had, what they wanted to do to get what they needed to get, which was numbers, you know?
[31:05.140 --> 31:19.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, I, and on a larger scale, United States Marines and the people, not the Marines, the grunts, so to speak, but they have people who are over them, who give them orders to do X, Y, Z, A, B, C.
[31:19.560 --> 31:22.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're going to follow just like the police officer in the street.
[31:22.680 --> 31:38.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now you're going to find, you know, like that article you, you, you, you, uh, you read about the pet, you know, the, they found pesticides and even that gentleman who's as intelligent as he is, you know, uh, cause I don't think he'd be around you if he wasn't,
[31:38.400 --> 31:41.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: you know, for him to say, well, we can get some pesticides on.
[31:41.440 --> 31:43.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, and he, he prefaces it with that.
[31:43.360 --> 31:51.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was a chemistry major and that you can make pesticides, but you know, you found this on a farm, you know, in an agricultural area.
[31:51.840 --> 31:54.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And even he is buying into the propaganda.
[31:54.680 --> 31:55.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that means his...
[31:55.700 --> 31:56.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[31:56.960 --> 32:02.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's twice, that's twice you've, you've accused me of, of, of justifying the administration's position.
[32:02.660 --> 32:04.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I want to say the following.
[32:04.360 --> 32:05.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: You've got 20 seconds.
[32:05.040 --> 32:08.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: As a hacker, my idea is to be a devil's advocate.
[32:09.120 --> 32:09.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[32:09.700 --> 32:12.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a liberal oriented radio station and show.
[32:12.580 --> 32:14.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Therefore, I tend to be conservative.
[32:14.520 --> 32:14.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[32:14.820 --> 32:19.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm just offering a, the possibility that if they're hiding it, that's the way to do it.
[32:19.740 --> 32:19.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[32:21.570 --> 32:22.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's Jim.
[32:23.040 --> 32:29.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: That who, that is who Jim was, uh, someone who, um, who challenged the prevailing opinion, no matter where he was.
[32:29.360 --> 32:39.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's, uh, fast forward over to November 10th, 2004, our post election day show where things didn't go so well for the, uh, Democrats.
[32:40.400 --> 32:42.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Jim was quite happy about that.
[32:42.780 --> 32:44.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Jim, you must be very happy, right?
[32:44.460 --> 32:45.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Your, your guy won.
[32:45.380 --> 32:46.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, I'm fairly pleased, yes.
[32:47.260 --> 32:48.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: So what, what, what do we have to look at?
[32:48.640 --> 32:57.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody, let's turn down all the microphones and we'll just let Jim go, um, go forth for a minute and tell us what's ahead for the next four years.
[32:57.140 --> 32:57.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[32:57.580 --> 33:03.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I, I, I would be remiss if I don't say that, uh, uh, there are still many problems.
[33:03.600 --> 33:16.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: We, we do have one clear improvement in the resignation of John Ashcroft, but he's being replaced by, uh, a man that I, I have problems with, despite my right wing leanings.
[33:16.840 --> 33:33.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, it's not so much, uh, what, what we have to look forward, uh, uh, to it's, it's what we've avoided, which I think was, uh, the way I voted and, uh, we still have to be on guard, uh, for civil liberties.
[33:33.180 --> 33:34.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, I agree with that.
[33:35.660 --> 33:37.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: You still have 40 seconds.
[33:37.080 --> 33:39.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, well, what more do you want to say?
[33:39.780 --> 33:47.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I just wanted to give you the opportunity because that's going to be the last opportunity for quite some time without people jumping on everything you say.
[33:48.480 --> 33:59.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unlike almost everybody else in this room and a large number of people in the United States on all sides of the spectrum, I believe that, that it's not so much, uh, the president that controls this country.
[34:00.280 --> 34:00.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[34:00.980 --> 34:11.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, it's, it's, it's the, the, the thousand invisible hands of, of commerce and markets and people interacting among themselves that, that create the direction the country goes.
[34:11.340 --> 34:15.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, the president can channel it, but he doesn't lead direct or drive it so much.
[34:16.800 --> 34:17.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[34:17.380 --> 34:28.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if you don't like what you see, there are many things you can do on a grassroots level to, to change, or if you like to put it this way, undercut, uh, what's going on.
[34:28.720 --> 34:30.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: So don't blame it all on the president.
[34:30.800 --> 34:35.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: It, when it might be your own inaction, but apparently voting isn't one of those things because that sure didn't work, did it?
[34:35.860 --> 34:36.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a democracy.
[34:36.880 --> 34:39.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: You've got to take the losses with the wins.
[34:39.400 --> 34:40.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like I did with Bill Clinton.
[34:40.540 --> 34:41.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's not actually a democracy.
[34:41.400 --> 34:43.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a Republic, but, uh, that's true.
[34:43.070 --> 34:44.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I've, I'm usually the one that points that out.
[34:44.550 --> 34:44.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[34:45.050 --> 34:45.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[34:45.300 --> 34:46.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, right back at you there.
[34:47.900 --> 35:01.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, what fun we had has 2004, uh, skipping ahead to April 12th, 2006 example of, uh, Jim's interaction with the audience who, um, certainly took issue with some of his political positions.
[35:02.800 --> 35:02.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hello?
[35:03.070 --> 35:03.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes.
[35:03.340 --> 35:03.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[35:03.690 --> 35:03.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[35:04.110 --> 35:07.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, earlier, uh, Jim used the word disingenuous.
[35:08.400 --> 35:08.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Disingenuous.
[35:08.920 --> 35:09.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I know.
[35:09.690 --> 35:09.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[35:10.190 --> 35:12.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: I realized that as soon as I said it, I decided not to go back.
[35:12.780 --> 35:13.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Why didn't you correct this then?
[35:14.000 --> 35:14.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[35:14.220 --> 35:15.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Jim, let's talk about this.
[35:15.860 --> 35:17.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: You used the word improperly.
[35:17.570 --> 35:18.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[35:18.630 --> 35:25.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: I felt, I felt a great wave of shame wash over me and I decided to just hope that no one knew, knew the word.
[35:25.650 --> 35:27.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Normally, sir, this kind of thing is not tolerated here.
[35:29.540 --> 35:31.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I thought millions of people are listening.
[35:31.500 --> 35:36.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the other gentleman used a, uh, a redundancy, more crazier.
[35:37.540 --> 35:38.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Who, who is that?
[35:38.520 --> 35:39.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did I say that?
[35:39.070 --> 35:40.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, the other fellow.
[35:40.270 --> 35:40.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know his name.
[35:41.130 --> 35:42.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: I apologize if I said that.
[35:42.270 --> 35:42.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: You said that?
[35:42.790 --> 35:43.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[35:43.730 --> 35:44.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's either me or Bernie.
[35:44.750 --> 35:46.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we're going to go through the transcript after the show.
[35:46.550 --> 35:48.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a very serious allegation to you.
[35:48.270 --> 35:48.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: More crazier.
[35:48.690 --> 35:48.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[35:49.770 --> 35:50.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[35:50.110 --> 35:52.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's be less sillier than take another phone call.
[35:53.210 --> 35:53.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, good evening.
[35:54.090 --> 35:54.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[35:55.880 --> 35:56.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[35:56.570 --> 36:02.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, also, I'd like to mention... You sound very similar to another caller and that's just, that's just too much for me to handle.
[36:03.000 --> 36:03.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[36:03.310 --> 36:03.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[36:04.480 --> 36:05.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, please.
[36:05.650 --> 36:05.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[36:06.360 --> 36:07.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, I'm already here.
[36:07.590 --> 36:08.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't realize that.
[36:08.790 --> 36:10.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, there's nothing wrong with all crazier, by the way.
[36:10.900 --> 36:11.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think I'm perfectly fine.
[36:11.810 --> 36:13.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's not start a big fight about this.
[36:14.050 --> 36:16.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: I, I don't know why that thing was even brought up.
[36:16.440 --> 36:18.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, the, um, the thing I wanted to ask you was.
[36:19.050 --> 36:19.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening.
[36:19.790 --> 36:20.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[36:21.480 --> 36:22.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, yeah.
[36:22.590 --> 36:24.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: How's your Republican guy here?
[36:24.460 --> 36:25.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's, he looks healthy.
[36:26.000 --> 36:26.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: He looks just fine.
[36:26.710 --> 36:32.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's down with John Bolton and, uh, the new Pope, uh, the Grand Inquisitor and, uh, well, I'm, I'm Greek Orthodox.
[36:33.290 --> 36:35.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think that the Catholics are just way too liberal anyway.
[36:36.070 --> 36:36.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're Greek Orthodox?
[36:36.690 --> 36:36.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[36:36.900 --> 36:37.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that.
[36:37.380 --> 36:38.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: My grandfather was a priest.
[36:38.480 --> 36:38.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[36:39.130 --> 36:40.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: You've kept that quiet.
[36:41.110 --> 36:41.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Huh.
[36:41.400 --> 36:41.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[36:41.550 --> 36:43.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's something that you could usually use to pick up girls.
[36:44.130 --> 36:46.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, hey, my grandfather was a priest.
[36:46.690 --> 36:46.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[36:47.190 --> 36:47.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Publican.
[36:47.840 --> 36:48.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[36:48.210 --> 36:53.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he seems to be fascinated with the fact that you're a Republican, but we're going to move on to something a little bit more, uh, controversial than that.
[36:53.710 --> 36:53.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[36:54.020 --> 36:54.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[36:55.090 --> 37:02.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, something else that, um, uh, Jim was, uh, known for was, um, uh, his talent in poker.
[37:02.810 --> 37:09.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, you know, occasionally he would just, um, uh, be a part of these tournaments, even, even after he had a stroke.
[37:09.770 --> 37:20.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, we can talk about that a little bit later on, but here, uh, in this excerpt, July 12th, 2006, um, he explains the difference between poker and gambling.
[37:20.570 --> 37:22.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, as always, we have a lively debate.
[37:23.070 --> 37:26.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyone ever used an online gambling site in this room?
[37:26.150 --> 37:26.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have Jim?
[37:26.790 --> 37:26.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[37:27.070 --> 37:27.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's it like?
[37:27.420 --> 37:29.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: You just basically click on something and all your money goes away?
[37:29.790 --> 37:30.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay.
[37:30.210 --> 37:30.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't gamble.
[37:30.980 --> 37:32.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I play poker, which is a little different.
[37:32.500 --> 37:32.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait a minute.
[37:32.940 --> 37:33.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait, whoa, whoa.
[37:33.500 --> 37:35.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: You play poker, that's not gambling?
[37:35.440 --> 37:40.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: When you're gambling, all outcomes other than the one that's desirous are more likely.
[37:40.570 --> 37:50.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: When you play poker, ideally, if definitely when you have a cinch hand, the outcome that you're betting on is the most likely, or at least you believe it to be the most likely.
[37:50.500 --> 37:53.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: I like the way he talks, talking about things like this.
[37:53.790 --> 37:54.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's, that's okay.
[37:55.070 --> 37:55.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to accept that.
[37:56.170 --> 37:56.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay.
[37:56.790 --> 37:57.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Continue.
[37:57.400 --> 37:59.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's very simple.
[38:00.170 --> 38:03.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: In most cases, you download software, but not all.
[38:03.230 --> 38:14.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Some are Java based and, uh, it resembles a, a cartoon version, uh, in less dimensions of, of, uh, a casino or a poker game or, or whatever.
[38:15.150 --> 38:19.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: You, you put money in through PayPal or MasterCard or whatever.
[38:20.360 --> 38:22.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, then that's your account.
[38:22.420 --> 38:26.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you say, how much would you like to risk at this poker game at this table at this time?
[38:27.070 --> 38:31.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: But there's nothing to stop you from basically losing everything you own, uh, in this.
[38:31.170 --> 38:36.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Everything that you have on site, everything that you've, that you've put in, you have a bank roll, so to speak.
[38:36.710 --> 38:36.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[38:36.880 --> 38:38.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you can keep putting things into that bank roll, correct?
[38:38.920 --> 38:43.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can also, uh, in the stock market, uh, buy stocks that go down in value.
[38:44.020 --> 38:50.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then after you've lost your money, put more money into your brokerage account and buy another stock that goes down in value.
[38:50.460 --> 38:52.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, you could lose money in many ways.
[38:52.190 --> 38:52.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: But you don't do it instantly.
[38:53.190 --> 38:56.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: It takes time for the stock market to crash and for you to lose your investment.
[38:56.400 --> 38:59.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: This, you can just click a button and all of a sudden there's 20 grand gone.
[38:59.550 --> 38:59.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wonderful.
[38:59.960 --> 39:01.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can go to Atlantic City.
[39:01.290 --> 39:03.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: It takes three hours more for all again.
[39:03.000 --> 39:04.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not if you're six years old, you can't.
[39:05.360 --> 39:08.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you're six year old, how are you going to get to your credit card?
[39:08.480 --> 39:10.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do you have a credit card if you're six?
[39:10.750 --> 39:11.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: You don't.
[39:11.210 --> 39:11.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Your parents do.
[39:12.090 --> 39:13.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: What are your parents doing光ing?
[39:13.090 --> 39:13.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have your credit card.
[39:14.230 --> 39:17.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Look, credit cards left on the kitchen counter one day and look what happens.
[39:17.710 --> 39:24.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a case, well, the problem is not that it's wrong in that case from Goodlatte's point of view.
[39:24.130 --> 39:27.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: The problem is it's wrong because the kid should not have a credit card.
[39:27.230 --> 39:27.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I agree with that.
[39:28.790 --> 39:36.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it just seems It seems like, you know, if you get a gamble, you should go through something to gamble, like by traveling someplace or, you know, doing something in person.
[39:36.590 --> 39:38.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, this discriminates against the handicapped, then.
[39:38.380 --> 39:38.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, it doesn't.
[39:38.900 --> 39:40.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Handicapped people can go places.
[39:41.070 --> 39:42.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you're in an iron lung.
[39:42.460 --> 39:43.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not that I think anybody's...
[39:43.690 --> 39:45.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: In an iron lung, are you really going to be gambling?
[39:45.670 --> 39:47.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think you have more pressing concerns.
[39:47.960 --> 39:48.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, never mind.
[39:49.050 --> 39:50.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think you're mined off it.
[39:50.840 --> 39:59.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a gambling addict and it's causing... and gambling is causing you problems, I don't I don't think traveling somewhere is going to be very much of a deterrent.
[40:00.210 --> 40:00.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[40:01.230 --> 40:03.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I miss those conversations, those debates.
[40:04.380 --> 40:08.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, sadly, this next clip is our last clip of Jim before his stroke.
[40:10.040 --> 40:12.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: This show aired on May 9th, 2007.
[40:14.350 --> 40:19.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's particularly interesting because he reveals how he found out about Off The Hook.
[40:20.110 --> 40:30.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can do it on the Internet, but it's not the same thing when you have a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City, and you're able to get people from all over just tuning in in their cars.
[40:30.340 --> 40:40.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's the coolest thing in the world is getting somebody who has no real interest in the hacker world getting turned on to it because they happened to turn on the radio at the wrong time and get us.
[40:41.050 --> 40:46.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, you know, a lot of people are dialing the radio dial looking for something interesting and find us.
[40:46.690 --> 40:51.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, I'm one of those people who accidentally came upon this station.
[40:51.110 --> 40:51.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait a minute, wait, wait.
[40:51.770 --> 40:55.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: You mean you're here now because you accidentally tuned us in?
[40:55.630 --> 40:55.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm here.
[40:55.880 --> 40:57.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm here now for a lot of reasons, but that's one of them.
[40:58.050 --> 41:04.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, basically, we would never have met you, Jim, if we hadn't been doing a radio show and you hadn't turned on the radio.
[41:04.790 --> 41:05.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly.
[41:05.460 --> 41:05.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[41:05.590 --> 41:13.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: The show that I first heard was, ironically, the one before the first Tope where you were saying, is anybody from the MTA listening and knows anything about MetroCard?
[41:13.940 --> 41:14.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my goodness.
[41:14.570 --> 41:15.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we can try to find that moment.
[41:16.070 --> 41:17.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think we've played that.
[41:17.130 --> 41:17.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have we played that?
[41:17.650 --> 41:18.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've played that.
[41:18.380 --> 41:18.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[41:18.880 --> 41:21.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then we can find the moment where we played it, again.
[41:21.440 --> 41:22.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would be fascinating.
[41:23.110 --> 41:24.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: That must have been a pretty historic moment right there.
[41:25.130 --> 41:27.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Three calls on the line, 212-209-2950.
[41:28.480 --> 41:33.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Which, by the way, is still the number that you can call to pledge support to this amazing radio station here at WBAI.
[41:34.400 --> 41:47.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Our last clip of Jim is when he returned to the radio station just over a year after his debilitating stroke, only a couple of months after the excerpt you just heard.
[41:48.150 --> 41:51.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is November 12th, 2008.
[41:55.120 --> 41:56.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening to everybody.
[41:56.240 --> 41:57.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is off the hook.
[41:57.920 --> 42:00.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[42:01.180 --> 42:03.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Joined this week by Mike.
[42:03.460 --> 42:03.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[42:04.380 --> 42:05.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[42:06.160 --> 42:07.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Greetings from Philadelphia.
[42:07.780 --> 42:08.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Looks like Voltaire over there.
[42:09.080 --> 42:09.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Over there.
[42:10.000 --> 42:11.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: On the side of the room we have not Kevin.
[42:12.440 --> 42:12.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[42:13.000 --> 42:13.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rob T.
[42:13.720 --> 42:14.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Firefly.
[42:14.240 --> 42:14.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[42:15.900 --> 42:20.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And special surprise joining us on the middle part of the room.
[42:21.920 --> 42:23.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Jim, welcome back.
[42:23.600 --> 42:24.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing?
[42:24.500 --> 42:25.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well...
[42:26.360 --> 42:26.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Better.
[42:26.980 --> 42:27.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Much better.
[42:27.500 --> 42:28.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: You came here on your own.
[42:29.000 --> 42:32.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not known for all points bulletin.
[42:32.080 --> 42:33.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's in a better place now.
[42:33.580 --> 42:35.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's in a place where he can actually come and go.
[42:35.580 --> 42:38.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks to the tireless efforts of many people.
[42:39.040 --> 42:40.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bernie, you certainly not the least.
[42:40.960 --> 42:42.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And advice from some of our listeners.
[42:43.220 --> 42:49.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bernie, you want to tell us something about Jim's position now where he can go and stay and things?
[42:49.220 --> 42:58.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I understand Jim was successfully moved this morning from the nursing home in Brooklyn to an adult facility in Brooklyn, Queens.
[42:58.520 --> 43:04.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Jim, I hear that there's a computer there that's online.
[43:04.320 --> 43:06.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know, but I don't know.
[43:06.500 --> 43:07.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's what I've been told.
[43:07.760 --> 43:09.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I hear there's a good library there.
[43:09.260 --> 43:13.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the most important thing is you have the freedom to come and go.
[43:13.640 --> 43:13.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: So...
[43:13.960 --> 43:15.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the first thing he did was come here.
[43:16.580 --> 43:17.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[43:17.140 --> 43:18.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: So he's got his judgment back.
[43:18.700 --> 43:20.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's certainly an important thing.
[43:21.340 --> 43:22.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Congratulations, Jim.
[43:22.120 --> 43:22.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Congratulations.
[43:22.680 --> 43:23.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, welcome back.
[43:23.720 --> 43:24.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: So good to see you again.
[43:25.100 --> 43:26.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you're looking better than ever.
[43:26.740 --> 43:27.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[43:30.110 --> 43:31.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm going to miss him.
[43:31.930 --> 43:37.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I just basically met him a couple of years after that.
[43:38.450 --> 43:45.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he was in the studio many, many times, sitting next to me, joining in on the conversation.
[43:45.870 --> 43:57.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sometimes he'd even nod off a little bit and I'd give him a little poke or he'd look over when we were talking and get back in the conversation and just, you know, listen.
[43:57.230 --> 43:59.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think he just wanted to be there with us listening.
[44:00.310 --> 44:12.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's weird for me because all of my previous radio listening to this show was stuff that included him.
[44:12.090 --> 44:19.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so I knew him, like, as well as anybody who's listened to the archives of OTH.
[44:19.770 --> 44:26.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it was just really kind of cool over the years to help him.
[44:26.790 --> 44:28.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: He tried so hard.
[44:28.210 --> 44:36.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: That same joy and enthusiasm when he had something to say or he was writing something down, he would use a pen and paper a lot.
[44:36.210 --> 44:39.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: He would be emphatic about creating understanding.
[44:39.990 --> 44:40.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I love that.
[44:41.070 --> 44:58.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, that's my favorite thing about communications and storytelling and my own never ending diatribes that I won't ever shut up sometimes because it's just I want to understand why I love human understanding when people connect, especially when we're traveling,
[44:58.570 --> 45:03.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: when we're meeting other hackers and, you know, speaking about common things and so forth.
[45:03.490 --> 45:13.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: But he would be so emphatic and he would even laugh and have that sense of humor at his own difficulty trying to get you to understand exactly what he was talking about.
[45:13.810 --> 45:19.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: So as you'd be learning about something he's telling you, he'd say, right, or you'd say, like, yeah, and like, exactly.
[45:20.150 --> 45:21.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you'd feel stupid for not getting it.
[45:22.250 --> 45:27.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he would write things out and there'd be like a letter missing and you were supposed to fill in the letters.
[45:27.870 --> 45:29.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that... that's Jeopardy, right?
[45:29.290 --> 45:30.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's how Jeopardy works.
[45:30.090 --> 45:34.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you might have heard him being referred to as Jeopardy Jim or referring to himself that way.
[45:34.430 --> 45:37.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's because he appeared on the TV show Jeopardy.
[45:38.070 --> 45:43.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rob, I believe you said it was episode 1337, which spells leet, which is pretty amazing.
[45:43.970 --> 45:48.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: If anybody can get that copy of the show, we'd love to have it somewhere.
[45:48.250 --> 45:49.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think he was on two episodes.
[45:49.490 --> 45:50.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I never knew that.
[45:50.770 --> 45:51.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, he was on two episodes.
[45:52.150 --> 45:56.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: The second episode was Jeopardy episode 1337, which is amazing.
[45:56.450 --> 45:56.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's crazy.
[45:56.990 --> 46:00.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'll forever be pondering the cosmic implications of that coincidence.
[46:01.130 --> 46:01.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[46:01.850 --> 46:03.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, Alex, go ahead.
[46:03.410 --> 46:09.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: And isn't it true, Rob, that he lost that episode by a mere dollar?
[46:09.910 --> 46:11.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: By one dollar, yes.
[46:11.730 --> 46:17.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was strategic betting on Final Jeopardy on the part of the guy who won.
[46:18.650 --> 46:24.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, Jim wouldn't talk about this a lot, but, you know, he'd kind of roll his eyes and go, yeah, whatever, and shrug.
[46:26.770 --> 46:28.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Both before and after the stroke.
[46:28.510 --> 46:30.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's how he would remember those.
[46:31.130 --> 46:35.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: He would definitely have that kind of groan or reaction sometimes.
[46:35.370 --> 46:35.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Alex.
[46:35.750 --> 46:53.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, just one thing I want to mention that really strikes me and hit me at the, you know, I think right in the heart was that just that massively stark contrast between Jim prior to the stroke and Jim after the stroke.
[46:53.810 --> 47:02.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that quote that you played of Jim returning a question with, you know, a couple syllables of a response.
[47:02.570 --> 47:05.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's what I remember of him for so many years now.
[47:06.090 --> 47:08.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was such a treat to hear his voice.
[47:09.130 --> 47:13.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I forgot how God damn smart he was.
[47:13.390 --> 47:14.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: I really did.
[47:14.290 --> 47:25.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because, and it makes me think it must have been just so absolutely torturous for him to just only be able to blurt out a couple of syllables for this long, knowing full well what was going on in his head.
[47:25.850 --> 47:27.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was absolutely incredible.
[47:27.990 --> 47:31.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just want to share one completely unrelated anecdote as well.
[47:31.850 --> 47:39.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was Jim had come back from one of his jaunts at some casino somewhere.
[47:39.170 --> 47:40.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was Atlantic City.
[47:40.270 --> 47:41.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it was when the station was...
[47:41.430 --> 47:43.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: I remember us being down at 120 Wall Street.
[47:43.850 --> 47:45.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it was during a show.
[47:45.370 --> 47:48.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: It must have been after one of the shows, probably back in like the early 2000s.
[47:49.290 --> 47:51.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was asking him about, you know, how did it go?
[47:51.810 --> 47:52.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what did he play?
[47:52.910 --> 47:54.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he was telling me he was playing...
[47:54.750 --> 48:01.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: He played blackjack, I think it was, not poker, all night long for, you know, like 12 hours or something like that.
[48:02.830 --> 48:06.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so I said to him, you know, well, how did you make out?
[48:06.470 --> 48:16.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I never forgot this because I, and I always think of it whenever I go into any casino, is that he said it was the hardest you could work for minimum wage.
[48:17.370 --> 48:18.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, you won.
[48:18.830 --> 48:22.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought that was just so interesting that he had this persistence.
[48:22.230 --> 48:27.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was down there and he was making money by playing and winning and using his brain against the house.
[48:27.590 --> 48:31.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: And even though, you know, he wasn't betting big and he was still there.
[48:31.570 --> 48:42.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was, he looked at it as almost like a job to me and that I could see how that would be a really tough way to make, you know, five or six bucks an hour, probably what it was back then.
[48:42.330 --> 48:45.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this conversation, this was pre-stroke or post-stroke?
[48:45.730 --> 48:46.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, this was pre-stroke.
[48:46.990 --> 48:53.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because after he had a stroke one time, he, he, he just ventured out on his own and scared the crap out of everybody.
[48:53.350 --> 48:54.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Cause he just disappeared.
[48:54.550 --> 48:55.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody knew where he was.
[48:55.530 --> 48:59.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: He went down to Atlantic city and he was gambling and he, he, he still had that.
[48:59.750 --> 49:01.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, he just took it.
[49:01.650 --> 49:11.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: He just went down there and did that for himself and just came back casually while the rest of us were putting up signs on, on, on, on, uh, on lamppost and things like that.
[49:11.430 --> 49:18.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, um, we only have a couple of minutes left, but we are going to continue on YouTube on Channel2600 or click on the link that's on the 2600.com webpage.
[49:19.530 --> 49:24.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'd like to hear, uh, your thoughts, your memories and call us and we'll talk more about, um, about Jim.
[49:25.110 --> 49:29.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have a couple more clips, but Rob, um, you, you wrote a particularly eloquent piece.
[49:29.530 --> 49:33.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, uh, about Jim, uh, can you give the address so people can read this?
[49:34.810 --> 49:41.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it's right on the front page of the, uh, site for our local 2600 meetings, which is NYC 2600.net.
[49:41.790 --> 49:44.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And there's some great pictures of them from over the years.
[49:44.510 --> 49:47.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, just a lot of, a lot of thoughts and a lot of links.
[49:47.330 --> 49:49.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's a link to New York times front page story that he was in.
[49:50.270 --> 49:54.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, it, it's, uh, it was difficult to write, but, uh, fulfilling.
[49:54.450 --> 49:55.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's beautiful.
[49:55.550 --> 49:55.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[49:55.830 --> 49:58.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: It is utterly a beautiful remembrance.
[49:58.870 --> 49:59.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: It absolutely is.
[50:00.230 --> 50:06.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, if, if you have pictures of Jim, you want to share with us, please email us oth@2600.com.
[50:06.630 --> 50:09.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or if you have memories that you'd like to share as well.
[50:10.570 --> 50:20.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: And also, if you'd like to come to the 2600 meeting, which is this Friday, um, at, uh, city group center on 53rd and Lexington, um, all the info is right there to NYC 2600.net.
[50:20.470 --> 50:22.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of us are going to be sharing our remembrances of Jim.
[50:23.250 --> 50:23.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[50:23.590 --> 50:27.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: The meetings, he went to so many of those with such a part of them.
[50:27.450 --> 50:29.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, it's going to be hard.
[50:30.030 --> 50:31.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be really, really hard.
[50:31.270 --> 50:34.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, since the stroke, obviously it was different, but he was still there.
[50:34.910 --> 50:35.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was still around.
[50:36.070 --> 50:36.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was still a presence.
[50:37.470 --> 50:43.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, even at this most recent hope, um, he was being thought of, he was supposed to participate in a talk.
[50:44.030 --> 50:55.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't believe he was able to, but there was, um, a talk with, uh, his, his, um, his, his wellbeing definitely was the theme, uh, Alex closing thoughts.
[50:55.850 --> 50:56.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[50:56.410 --> 51:15.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just, uh, and I think this is maybe a good way to close out of Jim, but if I recall correctly as a, as a member of the speaker selection committee for hope that the proposed title for Jim's talk at hope was he's not dead yet, Jim, right?
[51:16.210 --> 51:21.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or something like that, which, which I think you might've even nixed as being slightly inappropriate or something.
[51:22.050 --> 51:27.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: But here he was, I think, you know, knowing full well that he was in decline and towards the end of his days.
[51:27.690 --> 51:39.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it just goes right back to what you said earlier about Jim Emmanuel, which is that he found a way to, to make light of it and to, uh, and to bring the humor out into the situation.
[51:39.510 --> 51:43.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: So he, uh, he never lost who he was.
[51:43.170 --> 51:44.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's for damn sure.
[51:44.350 --> 51:47.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we can all learn incredible lessons from him.
[51:48.390 --> 51:55.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: All the recordings that we, uh, played are available online, 2600.com/offthehook.
[51:56.290 --> 51:58.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all there, so much more than what we played tonight.
[51:59.530 --> 52:01.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, rest in peace, Jim.
[52:02.390 --> 52:03.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're taking next week off.
[52:04.030 --> 52:05.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see you on YouTube at eight o'clock.
[52:06.030 --> 52:06.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night, everyone.
[55:41.070 --> 55:45.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: And welcome everybody to YouTube for Overtime.
[55:46.030 --> 55:49.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Here on Channel2600.
[55:49.510 --> 55:51.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kyle, you seem to have made it.
[55:51.130 --> 55:51.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[55:52.150 --> 55:54.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, Rob Gila.
[55:55.710 --> 55:56.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[55:56.210 --> 55:56.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: We are here.
[55:56.870 --> 55:57.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Alex.
[56:00.150 --> 56:03.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: If it's not too much trouble to respond.
[56:03.390 --> 56:04.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm here.
[56:04.530 --> 56:04.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes.
[56:04.770 --> 56:05.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you so much.
[56:05.950 --> 56:09.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and Rob, if you could just verify that we did in fact, make it to you too.
[56:09.130 --> 56:10.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're nodding your heads enthusiastically.
[56:10.510 --> 56:11.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I guess we did.
[56:11.610 --> 56:12.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know we did.
[56:12.410 --> 56:12.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we sound fine.
[56:12.950 --> 56:14.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have been some YouTube problems today.
[56:14.870 --> 56:15.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard about this.
[56:15.750 --> 56:17.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it's crashing all over the place.
[56:17.590 --> 56:18.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not us folks.
[56:18.430 --> 56:19.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had nothing to do with it.
[56:19.690 --> 56:20.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[56:20.090 --> 56:22.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I got to say, uh, done a lot of difficult radio shows.
[56:22.630 --> 56:27.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was the hardest saying by somebody's always hard.
[56:28.230 --> 56:29.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, wow.
[56:30.630 --> 56:30.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[56:31.270 --> 56:33.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so, uh, now it's your turn listeners.
[56:33.750 --> 56:44.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: If, uh, you have anything you want to share with us, uh, concerning Jim, I do ask, um, if you don't have something concerning Jim, um, uh, don't call at least at the first part of the show.
[56:44.910 --> 56:49.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, let's give the people who do have, uh, memories or things they want to share the opportunity.
[56:49.870 --> 56:53.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Phone number 802-321-4225-802-321-HACK.
[56:54.230 --> 56:55.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's our telephone number.
[56:55.990 --> 56:58.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and phone lines open, uh, to everybody.
[56:58.890 --> 57:00.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you guys have any additional thoughts?
[57:00.770 --> 57:07.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know that hour went by so fast and there were so many clips, you know, we could have easily filled hours and hours with, uh, interesting Jim clips.
[57:07.550 --> 57:10.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we still have a couple we're going to play, uh, during this, uh, this segment.
[57:11.370 --> 57:11.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[57:11.770 --> 57:13.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I couldn't think of what to tell.
[57:13.270 --> 57:19.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like there's so many aspects that, um, he impacted my life along the way and, and, uh, in hearing him early on.
[57:21.210 --> 57:21.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[57:21.590 --> 57:33.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, we could, we could go on for hours and hours and still just scratch the surface of all the, uh, all the time and all the, uh, joy that, uh, that we had with Jim and, you know, just, uh, just boiling it all down.
[57:33.550 --> 57:35.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: It, it was a joy to know him.
[57:35.470 --> 57:36.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was an honor to work with him.
[57:37.170 --> 57:40.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, he's going to be missed a lot.
[57:41.650 --> 57:54.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, the thing that I said after I heard about Jim's passing was that he did everything to his final days on his own terms.
[57:55.070 --> 57:56.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: He did what he did.
[57:56.910 --> 58:04.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I was thinking about when he took a flyer from assisted living and went to Atlantic City without telling anyone.
[58:05.110 --> 58:09.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there were nights when we'd all go out to dinner after the show and Jim would be with us.
[58:09.790 --> 58:14.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then all of a sudden he wouldn't be because he just peeled off and didn't tell anybody and then he was gone.
[58:14.610 --> 58:16.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was like, do we need a seat for Jim?
[58:16.290 --> 58:17.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh no, I guess not.
[58:17.370 --> 58:17.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[58:17.930 --> 58:23.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, and whatever he did, he did it as himself.
[58:23.710 --> 58:36.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: He had this incredibly strong sense of self, which even after he couldn't talk anymore, it was just so there in the sense of welcoming and joy that never abated.
[58:37.790 --> 58:39.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, definitely true.
[58:39.750 --> 58:40.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[58:40.310 --> 58:59.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: And just for speaking out early on, hearing those clips from Hope, um, knowing that, you know, a lot of that, uh, uh, entanglement with, uh, legal troubles and so forth was just for him speaking out and, um, telling other people in a, uh, uh, engaging way about something he knew just sharing that information.
[58:59.470 --> 59:01.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's what we stand for.
[59:01.150 --> 59:05.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's what we're, um, constantly talking about and in some of the stories and things that we follow.
[59:05.510 --> 59:08.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, he, he embodied that incredibly.
[59:08.690 --> 59:20.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, yeah, I, I remember those same evenings where, where he would be just independently, uh, going his own way and, but we'd have great, like a Szechuan or some good thing that he'd be craving.
[59:20.950 --> 59:23.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, and we'd be like, all right, Jim, no, you're right.
[59:23.530 --> 59:29.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: We gotta, or he'd know of a spot and, and he'd say, this is where we gotta, we're, we're gonna get something good.
[59:29.370 --> 59:32.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, and, um, he knew the city so well.
[59:32.890 --> 59:33.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[59:33.290 --> 59:42.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: He knew every nook and cranny and, you know, uh, having worked in the transit authority, he knew so much about the, the whole system, but also where places were and the history.
[59:42.270 --> 59:48.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: You heard some of that in the past hour, just his, his, uh, enthusiasm for, for talking about history of all sorts.
[59:49.110 --> 59:51.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and I'm so glad he found the community.
[59:51.190 --> 01:00:00.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so glad he found people that accepted him for who he was and that listened to him and that he could be part of these conversations, you know, both, you know, before his stroke and after his stroke.
[01:00:00.590 --> 01:00:02.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, he, he still was accepted.
[01:00:02.770 --> 01:00:08.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: He still was a vital part of those conversations and it just, it meant the world to him.
[01:00:08.870 --> 01:00:09.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know that much.
[01:00:09.770 --> 01:00:10.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:00:10.330 --> 01:00:13.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: And his intellect made that conversation richer.
[01:00:14.070 --> 01:00:19.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: I feel like I'm smarter for having listened to his points of view in the discussions over the years.
[01:00:19.450 --> 01:00:19.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, you are.
[01:00:19.650 --> 01:00:20.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we all are.
[01:00:20.390 --> 01:00:23.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody who listened on, on the radio station for sure.
[01:00:23.570 --> 01:00:24.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[01:00:24.850 --> 01:00:25.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:00:25.350 --> 01:00:25.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have a phone call.
[01:00:25.990 --> 01:00:26.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I understand.
[01:00:26.790 --> 01:00:27.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, go ahead.
[01:00:27.610 --> 01:00:28.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:00:29.990 --> 01:00:30.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes.
[01:00:30.410 --> 01:00:33.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just tuned in and I just heard about, uh, Jim's passing.
[01:00:34.110 --> 01:00:36.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, I, uh, remember Jim.
[01:00:37.050 --> 01:00:45.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, I remember, uh, yeah, I remember, um, I, uh, back in the nineties, I was, uh, you know, hanging out with somebody from the 2600 meeting.
[01:00:45.430 --> 01:00:51.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: We, you know, kind of became friends and we, uh, he lived near a particular place in Queens.
[01:00:51.770 --> 01:00:56.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: And he, uh, one time he told me, you know, uh, uh, uh, come, come to this place.
[01:00:56.810 --> 01:00:58.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, I'll, I have a surprise for you.
[01:00:58.590 --> 01:01:01.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, he brings me down to the subway station in Queens.
[01:01:01.450 --> 01:01:05.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: And there was Jim working at that, uh, subway station.
[01:01:05.670 --> 01:01:09.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's, uh, I never got to see him doing that.
[01:01:09.650 --> 01:01:10.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: I never got to see him working.
[01:01:10.570 --> 01:01:22.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, and, and, and, and, you know, uh, uh, uh, hearing people pass like that, um, whatever happened to people like fiber and Bernie and, you know, are there, do we still keep in contact with these people?
[01:01:22.050 --> 01:01:22.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[01:01:22.670 --> 01:01:23.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're all still out there.
[01:01:23.830 --> 01:01:25.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was talking to fiber earlier today, in fact.
[01:01:27.050 --> 01:01:33.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, yeah, you know, but life happens, you know, and you got to keep up with people.
[01:01:33.310 --> 01:01:35.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: You got to keep in touch and check in with them.
[01:01:35.790 --> 01:01:36.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: We got to keep up with people.
[01:01:36.490 --> 01:01:36.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[01:01:37.530 --> 01:01:38.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are you, Rebel?
[01:01:40.390 --> 01:01:42.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, we got to keep up with people.
[01:01:42.190 --> 01:01:43.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you got to answer my question, too.
[01:01:43.590 --> 01:01:44.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are you?
[01:01:46.490 --> 01:01:47.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now I can't hear you.
[01:01:48.430 --> 01:01:49.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is typical.
[01:01:50.090 --> 01:01:51.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, well, we can hear you.
[01:01:52.050 --> 01:01:52.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the important thing.
[01:01:53.430 --> 01:01:56.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess hearing me isn't really the issue right now.
[01:01:59.070 --> 01:02:00.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel, can you hear anything?
[01:02:01.430 --> 01:02:01.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: What?
[01:02:02.230 --> 01:02:03.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you hear something.
[01:02:03.190 --> 01:02:03.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're responding.
[01:02:04.070 --> 01:02:04.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're saying what?
[01:02:05.210 --> 01:02:06.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you hear me?
[01:02:07.250 --> 01:02:11.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: I heard you say that you are in contact with Phiber or you've talked to Phiber 
[01:02:11.170 --> 01:02:12.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you only hear certain sentences.
[01:02:12.550 --> 01:02:19.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I was asking how you were because I'm trying to demonstrate how you got to check in with everybody and make sure that we're all, you know, okay.
[01:02:20.010 --> 01:02:20.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do I check in?
[01:02:20.470 --> 01:02:20.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: What?
[01:02:20.530 --> 01:02:21.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my God.
[01:02:21.830 --> 01:02:24.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you really try my patience sometimes.
[01:02:24.790 --> 01:02:25.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: You really make it so difficult.
[01:02:27.130 --> 01:02:28.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't hear you, Emmanuel.
[01:02:29.190 --> 01:02:30.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know what?
[01:02:30.190 --> 01:02:31.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel is Rebel.
[01:02:31.330 --> 01:02:33.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I can conclude from all this.
[01:02:33.650 --> 01:02:34.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: But thank you for calling.
[01:02:35.070 --> 01:02:37.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Any other memories of Jim that you'd like to share?
[01:02:38.610 --> 01:02:38.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right.
[01:02:40.890 --> 01:02:41.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:02:41.470 --> 01:02:42.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: No is assumed.
[01:02:42.510 --> 01:02:44.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much for that phone call.
[01:02:45.890 --> 01:02:47.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: 802-321-4225.
[01:02:47.590 --> 01:02:48.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kyle, is there something going on with our board?
[01:02:49.510 --> 01:02:50.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everything's going on.
[01:02:50.210 --> 01:02:50.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or is Rebel just being difficult?
[01:02:51.130 --> 01:02:51.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[01:02:51.690 --> 01:02:53.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just all haywire.
[01:02:53.130 --> 01:02:54.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's the same board as last week.
[01:02:54.690 --> 01:02:56.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: What could possibly have changed?
[01:02:56.270 --> 01:02:57.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was never...
[01:02:57.190 --> 01:02:59.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's not another radio show that comes in here and uses it.
[01:02:59.570 --> 01:03:02.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's not equipped for the kind of heavy lifting on a conversation like this.
[01:03:02.830 --> 01:03:04.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pressing the phone button.
[01:03:04.370 --> 01:03:05.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the heavy lifting.
[01:03:05.330 --> 01:03:06.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: It worked for a while.
[01:03:08.030 --> 01:03:08.470]  Okay.
[01:03:08.470 --> 01:03:09.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Rob.
[01:03:10.010 --> 01:03:10.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:03:10.590 --> 01:03:21.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: While we're figuring that out, we have had such a heartwarming response from the community, from listeners and people who follow our social media and things, just about this news.
[01:03:21.270 --> 01:03:25.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: So many people have sent their condolences, and some people have shared memories of Jim.
[01:03:26.610 --> 01:03:29.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'd like to read one or two of them now while we have some time.
[01:03:30.850 --> 01:03:32.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: We got a couple of tweets.
[01:03:32.290 --> 01:03:33.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: We got one from Angelo.
[01:03:34.210 --> 01:03:37.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, I just want to say, I've listened to every single Off The Hook that Jim hosted.
[01:03:37.330 --> 01:03:40.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm talking about hours of Jim, where you feel you know him personally.
[01:03:40.550 --> 01:03:46.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's greatly missed for his intelligence, wisdom, accountability, and so much more the spirit of Jim carries on in us.
[01:03:47.730 --> 01:03:50.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Which I think was a beautiful sentiment.
[01:03:50.890 --> 01:03:51.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you, Angelo.
[01:03:52.270 --> 01:04:00.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Cara Moon, friend of the show, who's been a guest on the show in the past, referred to it as, you know, just such sad news.
[01:04:00.390 --> 01:04:06.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're very lucky to have the Off The Hook show archive, allowing Jim's sense of humor and encyclopedic knowledge to live on forever.
[01:04:08.710 --> 01:04:24.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that, too, I think it's part of what makes this situation so beautiful, is that we do have all these records of these people who have touched our lives and, you know, joined the show for a bit and gone on to do other things, or, like Jim, are no longer with us.
[01:04:24.210 --> 01:04:26.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, we'll always have these MP3s.
[01:04:28.910 --> 01:04:29.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:04:29.750 --> 01:04:30.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:04:32.010 --> 01:04:32.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:04:32.810 --> 01:04:38.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, we have a number of those, um, um, those pieces we'll be reading, uh, in the next few minutes, I suppose.
[01:04:39.570 --> 01:04:41.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, our phone number, 802-321-4225.
[01:04:42.190 --> 01:04:51.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't know for sure if you can hear us, but, um, um, we, uh, we can hear you when, when, when, when you speak over the radio.
[01:04:51.890 --> 01:04:58.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but, um, we do have a couple more excerpts, I guess, um, we can play.
[01:04:58.830 --> 01:05:01.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's one thing that, um, we kind of forgot about.
[01:05:01.670 --> 01:05:08.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I don't know if you guys remember, but we used to, um, read the address of the radio station every week.
[01:05:08.870 --> 01:05:12.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Jim was the guy who, who, uh, would read the ZIP Code.
[01:05:13.090 --> 01:05:15.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I think he, he took over the job from somebody else.
[01:05:15.350 --> 01:05:21.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, but, uh, you know, I would read the address and every week he would chime in with the ZIP Code.
[01:05:21.870 --> 01:05:25.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, this is from April 20th, 2005.
[01:05:26.690 --> 01:05:33.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I believe, I'm not entirely certain, but I believe this is the first time that he actually did that.
[01:05:33.390 --> 01:05:33.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's listen.
[01:05:37.420 --> 01:05:40.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's listen when I have the, um, the volume up.
[01:05:40.280 --> 01:05:40.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hang on one second.
[01:05:40.820 --> 01:05:45.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just have to, uh, do that and then do this.
[01:05:45.900 --> 01:05:50.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, you can write to us here at OffTheHook, oth@2600.com.
[01:05:51.160 --> 01:06:01.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or you can send us paper mail at, uh, OffTheHook, care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York.
[01:06:01.740 --> 01:06:04.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: One, zero, zero, zero, five.
[01:06:05.580 --> 01:06:06.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's very good.
[01:06:06.700 --> 01:06:07.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:07.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[01:06:07.600 --> 01:06:08.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I had to make up for Walter's, uh...
[01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:10.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, you're, you definitely have talent.
[01:06:10.980 --> 01:06:14.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we tried, we tried a, a new guy last week and it just didn't work out.
[01:06:14.580 --> 01:06:16.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: You'll notice he's not even here this week.
[01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:16.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, no.
[01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:17.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: How could he be?
[01:06:17.620 --> 01:06:18.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a shame.
[01:06:18.620 --> 01:06:25.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have to, you have to sort of take a course in order to get the, the lines just right, you know, and you've studied, you've studied this for a number of years.
[01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:27.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, I plan to move on from numbers to letters.
[01:06:28.020 --> 01:06:34.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I hope when you do that you're not, your ego doesn't become so big inside your head that you won't stop by and give us a few hours.
[01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:36.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I figured I could do letters for the show as well.
[01:06:36.640 --> 01:06:37.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: That would be nice.
[01:06:37.220 --> 01:06:38.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, speaking of which, I got a quickie.
[01:06:39.080 --> 01:06:47.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the Motion Picture Association of America is suing, uh, or at least, uh, threatening over letters G, PG, PG-13.
[01:06:47.540 --> 01:06:48.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, no, not this.
[01:06:48.700 --> 01:06:49.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: We were talking about this weeks ago.
[01:06:50.020 --> 01:06:51.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Someone actually went and did it?
[01:06:51.320 --> 01:07:08.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: They, they are sending, they're sending emails, nasty emails to people who are doing online fan fiction who are also trying to be good to the readers and rating it because those, uh, those are trademarks that they, uh, that they use for the ratings and the trademarks belong to the Motion Picture Association of America.
[01:07:09.060 --> 01:07:10.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, are they, are they rating them themselves?
[01:07:10.660 --> 01:07:12.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're saying, oh, this is my R rating?
[01:07:12.140 --> 01:07:20.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: The authors, the authors and or, uh, editors of online fiction are, are, yes, rating the, the written fiction themselves.
[01:07:20.500 --> 01:07:21.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: They're not rating movies.
[01:07:21.600 --> 01:07:22.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, written fiction.
[01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:24.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Have you ever read any of the online fan fiction?
[01:07:24.940 --> 01:07:25.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:29.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: The best way to possibly protect people from that, it would be to just remove it.
[01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:32.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, okay, well, we're not gonna, we're not gonna get into that.
[01:07:32.900 --> 01:07:36.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, that's, um, that's, that's one opinion there.
[01:07:36.620 --> 01:07:40.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, um, yeah, so, so Jim was the, uh, ZIP Code reader.
[01:07:41.300 --> 01:07:42.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how many people remember that.
[01:07:42.800 --> 01:07:48.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, I, I, I guess, um, uh, we all, uh, knew and, and certainly remember Jim.
[01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:52.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but I guess a lot of people listening now probably don't.
[01:07:53.200 --> 01:07:58.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's why we're not getting calls right now is because people are hearing him maybe for the first time, which is great, you know?
[01:07:59.320 --> 01:08:04.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there are so many shows out there that he played a big part in and so many conferences as well.
[01:08:04.720 --> 01:08:13.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so, uh, by all means, you know, if you have something to say at all about anything, uh, give us a call, 802-321-4225.
[01:08:13.980 --> 01:08:19.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, any other, um, um, excerpts you guys want to read or, um, anything else?
[01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:19.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:08:20.020 --> 01:08:26.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: A couple of, a couple of people have, uh, written to us on Mastodon, where we are, hacker radio show at mastodon.social.
[01:08:26.700 --> 01:08:28.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, Gila, you want to...
[01:08:28.780 --> 01:08:29.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sure, sure.
[01:08:30.040 --> 01:08:33.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, we received this one from J Lair, J Larr.
[01:08:34.220 --> 01:08:36.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, he says, I'm sorry for your loss.
[01:08:36.300 --> 01:08:38.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jim was always the heart and soul of Off The Hook.
[01:08:38.420 --> 01:08:40.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: His enthusiasm was contagious.
[01:08:40.840 --> 01:08:44.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: And from Jode's class, so sorry to hear, folks.
[01:08:44.480 --> 01:08:50.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: I remember his witty chat back in the day and still remember him disappearing on a bus for an adventure post-stroke.
[01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:53.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: His voice on the air has been missed for a long time.
[01:08:53.340 --> 01:08:56.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: But more than that, my condolences for the loss of your friend.
[01:08:58.300 --> 01:08:58.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:08:58.920 --> 01:08:59.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well said.
[01:08:59.480 --> 01:08:59.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well said.
[01:09:00.420 --> 01:09:01.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, everybody, who's, uh, written in.
[01:09:02.440 --> 01:09:06.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, you know, we share, we share in, in, in your grief.
[01:09:07.020 --> 01:09:09.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, this is when you need community the most.
[01:09:11.440 --> 01:09:11.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[01:09:12.440 --> 01:09:21.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have a, I have a bit of a longer one here from, uh, a listener, um, a long time listener of the show and, uh, and a friend of mine, I'm happy to say, uh, his name is Nathan.
[01:09:21.900 --> 01:09:23.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's a, he's from Australia.
[01:09:24.400 --> 01:09:30.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: And years ago, he had come to New York City on vacation and came to a 2600 meeting as part of that.
[01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:35.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: And he was excited to, to meet those of us who, uh, go to the meetings.
[01:09:35.480 --> 01:09:36.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was excited, excited to meet me.
[01:09:36.940 --> 01:09:44.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was excited to meet Jim and, uh, he writes, uh, this, he writes, I was saddened to hear of the news of Jim's passing.
[01:09:44.840 --> 01:09:50.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Meeting him at NYC 2600 is a treasured memory of mine, along with hanging out with all of you terrific troublemakers.
[01:09:51.100 --> 01:10:04.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's funny, the things that dance around in your mind while you're sifting through memories on someone's passing, Jim's laugh and the excited, astonished look on his face while we were chatting that I knew who he was and was excited to meet him and had been listening to him from Australia had blown his mind a little.
[01:10:04.900 --> 01:10:12.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Although I'm sure, of course, he would have met many people from all over the place at various conferences, I remember there being something about our conversation that was really astonishing to him.
[01:10:13.040 --> 01:10:15.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, it's a blessing to have that kind of memory.
[01:10:15.420 --> 01:10:22.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: As you noted in your post online, hearing Jim chime in from what sounded like the corner of the room with a hi during the intro for OTH was always fun to hear.
[01:10:22.700 --> 01:10:24.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: My thoughts are with you and the NYC hacker community.
[01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:28.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow, well said, all the way from Australia.
[01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:29.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:10:30.780 --> 01:10:39.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, and that, that's true for, you know, for years post, uh, stroke, he still came to the studio to hang out with us and to contribute to the show.
[01:10:39.480 --> 01:10:41.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was still contributing material to the show.
[01:10:41.260 --> 01:10:45.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: He would bring in articles from newspapers that he had cut out over the, over the week.
[01:10:46.040 --> 01:10:59.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and, uh, he would occasionally email us stuff, tweet us stuff, uh, whatever, uh, when he could do such things, but, uh, he was, he was still there behind the scenes and in front of the scenes, we still got to hear him at least a little bit at the top of the show.
[01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:02.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that, that meant a great deal to us and to many listeners.
[01:11:03.320 --> 01:11:19.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I'm just, I'm trying to remember, um, the last time I actually saw him and I, I, I, I'm sorry to say, I think it was, um, um, right when COVID was beginning and, um, we, we had trouble communicating.
[01:11:19.440 --> 01:11:30.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I, I think I was trying to, uh, communicate with him via Twitter to tell him not to come to the station because the station was imposing a very, um, strict limit on how many people could be in the studio.
[01:11:30.780 --> 01:11:33.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and I wasn't able to get through.
[01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:39.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, um, we had to convey the message through someone else because he hadn't in fact shown up.
[01:11:40.500 --> 01:11:46.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I know Kyle and I, uh, we were parked in a car and we, we had to, it was so crazy, the situation.
[01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:52.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had to wait for people to leave before we could go in out of, you know, an abundance of cause of caution.
[01:11:53.060 --> 01:11:54.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I remember seeing Jim leaving.
[01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:56.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I even waved because I couldn't.
[01:11:57.040 --> 01:11:59.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was, you know, it wasn't too far away.
[01:11:59.560 --> 01:11:59.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:12:00.580 --> 01:12:08.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I mean that, that probably was the last time I saw him, which sucks, you know, I wish it could have been better than that.
[01:12:09.580 --> 01:12:10.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:12:10.220 --> 01:12:11.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: But there were lots of good times too.
[01:12:11.820 --> 01:12:15.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: There were lots of funny times and unique times.
[01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:17.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what I'll hold on to.
[01:12:19.120 --> 01:12:19.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Absolutely.
[01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:26.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, he did start coming to the 2600 meetings again when they returned to physical space after lockdown.
[01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:29.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and they had reopened the venue for us.
[01:12:29.240 --> 01:12:34.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, he, he kept, he kept showing up and for as long as he could, I think physically.
[01:12:35.060 --> 01:12:37.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it was, it was still a joy to have him there.
[01:12:38.040 --> 01:12:43.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are those of us who, uh, who were close with him, who got especially good at being his interpreter.
[01:12:43.820 --> 01:12:47.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I found myself doing that at 2600 meetings sometimes.
[01:12:47.460 --> 01:12:59.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and because he, as we said on the radio, uh, he, he, he communicated with a combination of writing what letters he could from words out on paper and, um, speaking in, in short bursts.
[01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:05.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, it became sort of a game of charades combined with wheel of fortune combined with other things, but like some of us got good at it.
[01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:10.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I found myself like, like in facilitating conversations between him and other people at the meeting.
[01:13:11.120 --> 01:13:24.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, it, it was, it was fun to do, and it was great to be part of enabling that for him, but also it meant he could still be there participating in the chatting that was going on and still be contributing what he had to contribute.
[01:13:24.460 --> 01:13:24.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:13:24.880 --> 01:13:33.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: I remember the countless times at restaurants where he would be trying to order something and he, you know, he couldn't say a word or he was, you know, trying to write something out or point to something.
[01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:37.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there'd always be somebody in our crowd to help him.
[01:13:37.320 --> 01:13:44.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and I never saw an instance where the waitstaff was anything short of, you know, patient and trying to be understanding.
[01:13:45.320 --> 01:13:46.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's so important.
[01:13:46.580 --> 01:13:47.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you don't know who you're talking to.
[01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:48.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't know what they've been through.
[01:13:49.440 --> 01:13:54.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't know if it's somebody like Jim, somebody, you know, really awesome, who's been through something horrible.
[01:13:55.300 --> 01:14:00.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, that's why it's so important for us to, to, to be there for other people, you know, all the time.
[01:14:02.380 --> 01:14:02.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:14:02.880 --> 01:14:03.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think we have a phone call, Kyle?
[01:14:04.780 --> 01:14:05.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:14:05.320 --> 01:14:05.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:06.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now we don't know if they're going to be able to hear me.
[01:14:07.140 --> 01:14:09.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: So let's, um, let's try and be patient here.
[01:14:09.900 --> 01:14:10.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:11.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:14:13.220 --> 01:14:13.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[01:14:13.580 --> 01:14:14.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: I can hear you.
[01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:16.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just want to, well, really one question.
[01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:18.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel, one, one thing.
[01:14:18.340 --> 01:14:19.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: We want to open up the phone lines.
[01:14:19.480 --> 01:14:20.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:14:20.180 --> 01:14:21.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel, you got to let other people talk.
[01:14:22.180 --> 01:14:24.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: You seriously got a lot of people.
[01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:24.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:14:24.460 --> 01:14:27.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: So say your thing, but then we have to open the phone lines for other people.
[01:14:28.180 --> 01:14:28.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[01:14:30.400 --> 01:14:30.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:14:31.080 --> 01:14:32.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you hear my question?
[01:14:32.480 --> 01:14:33.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, because I was talking.
[01:14:34.120 --> 01:14:35.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to get you to listen even.
[01:14:36.760 --> 01:14:39.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: So please say what you want to say and then we'll move on.
[01:14:40.480 --> 01:14:40.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:14:41.140 --> 01:14:42.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: With Jim and freedom downtime.
[01:14:43.100 --> 01:14:44.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Was Jim and freedom downtime.
[01:14:44.480 --> 01:14:45.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good question.
[01:14:45.420 --> 01:14:52.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I, I actually scrolled through the movie, um, looking for pictures of him for that post on NYC 2600.net.
[01:14:52.500 --> 01:15:00.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I did not see any, um, shots of Jim, but I think, yeah, I don't think he might, he might've popped up in the background somewhere.
[01:15:00.380 --> 01:15:05.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, maybe he should have been, he certainly should have been there, but, uh, I'm trying to remember a scene where he would have been.
[01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:06.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's also raw footage.
[01:15:07.120 --> 01:15:15.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: So if he was at a meeting and there was like B roll of a meeting or something, we might be able to find something if he was around any of those, uh, periods.
[01:15:16.340 --> 01:15:16.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:17.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:15:17.120 --> 01:15:19.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if anyone can find a scene that he's in, let us know.
[01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:20.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'd like to know.
[01:15:20.400 --> 01:15:22.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we can maybe find more of that scene.
[01:15:22.540 --> 01:15:22.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:15:22.700 --> 01:15:23.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't want to watch the movie again.
[01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:24.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't want to watch that.
[01:15:24.720 --> 01:15:25.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Look at the whole thing.
[01:15:25.540 --> 01:15:27.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, it's, it's more than we can ask.
[01:15:27.300 --> 01:15:27.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's tradition.
[01:15:28.320 --> 01:15:29.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Annual tradition.
[01:15:29.400 --> 01:15:30.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: You have to do it right, right.
[01:15:30.760 --> 01:15:31.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: When the holidays start.
[01:15:31.820 --> 01:15:32.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:15:33.900 --> 01:15:34.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anything else, Rebel?
[01:15:35.600 --> 01:15:42.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, well, I wanted to demonstrate some things, but I guess since you're talking about, uh, this, since that came up, I, maybe I'll just do it next week.
[01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:43.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's do it next time.
[01:15:43.380 --> 01:15:43.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:15:43.640 --> 01:15:47.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll have the telephone tuned up for your, for your, uh, tests.
[01:15:47.660 --> 01:15:48.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's good hearing from you, Rebel.
[01:15:49.120 --> 01:15:49.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:15:49.220 --> 01:15:49.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you can hear me say that.
[01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:50.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:15:50.160 --> 01:15:50.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Be well.
[01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:52.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for calling.
[01:15:52.220 --> 01:15:52.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:53.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Take care.
[01:15:54.360 --> 01:15:55.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, I'm sorry for sounding impatient.
[01:15:56.160 --> 01:16:00.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just when, when you've not heard and it's just, it can get to you after a while.
[01:16:00.620 --> 01:16:00.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: It really can.
[01:16:01.580 --> 01:16:03.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, 802-321-4225.
[01:16:03.080 --> 01:16:10.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, if, if you have anything to say about Jim or, uh, hack community or, uh, things that are new as well, it's, that's, that's fine.
[01:16:11.620 --> 01:16:15.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, Rob, uh, Gila, any, any other, uh, excerpts that you wanted to share with us?
[01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:30.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, we, we got a, we got a long note from, uh, our friend SidePocket, which, uh, I will, I will sort of, um, summarize a little bit, but, um, I think this, this echoes how so many people in our crowd felt about him.
[01:16:31.100 --> 01:16:37.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, SidePocket says, I, like many others, was shocked, horrified, and had the wind taken out of me when I saw the news that Jim had passed away.
[01:16:38.140 --> 01:16:42.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, when I was little, I'd always grew up around hacking and read issues of 2600.
[01:16:42.520 --> 01:16:48.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, when I graduated high school in 2005, I decided to go public and finally attend one of those 2600 meetings at NYC.
[01:16:48.820 --> 01:16:51.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was really nervous about meeting other hackers in person.
[01:16:51.780 --> 01:16:54.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: The first actual in-person hacker that I ever met was Jim.
[01:16:55.120 --> 01:16:58.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: As I approached, he immediately brought me into a group of people he was talking to.
[01:16:58.860 --> 01:17:02.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was a very fun discussion, and I made friends with both Jim and those he spoke to that day.
[01:17:02.740 --> 01:17:07.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Despite being nervous for a couple more meetings, I stuck around because every time I showed up, Jim would always invite me into discussions.
[01:17:08.500 --> 01:17:15.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, without Jim, I would not have met the amazing friends that I have been fortunate to meet over the years and finally have the family that I severely lack in my own personal life.
[01:17:15.440 --> 01:17:18.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: I would not have attended and then volunteered for Hope for many years.
[01:17:18.420 --> 01:17:20.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, I would have done anything for Jim.
[01:17:20.420 --> 01:17:24.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was wrecked when I found out that he had a stroke and tried my best to accommodate his disability as he recovered.
[01:17:25.360 --> 01:17:28.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: His simple humanity and humility is what made me the hacker I am today.
[01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:35.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: And going forward, I'm going to mourn him by living through him via the example he laid out and continue to welcome new hackers as he did for me.
[01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:40.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, thank you, Sidepocket, for sharing that with us.
[01:17:40.380 --> 01:17:40.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well said.
[01:17:41.100 --> 01:17:41.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well said.
[01:17:42.040 --> 01:17:47.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, how can people send in, um, additional remembrances or thoughts?
[01:17:48.320 --> 01:17:52.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, uh, we would love to hear, uh, if you have any more remembrances of Jim.
[01:17:52.640 --> 01:17:57.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or, uh, thoughts about all of this, uh, you can email us at oth@2600.com.
[01:17:58.000 --> 01:18:02.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, for as long as Twitter is still a thing that people use, you can find us there at hacker radio show.
[01:18:03.160 --> 01:18:07.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, if you use mastodon, you could find us at hacker radio show at mastodon.social.
[01:18:08.940 --> 01:18:09.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:18:09.980 --> 01:18:15.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I've got an excerpt that we didn't have time for, um, from November 7th, 1995.
[01:18:16.320 --> 01:18:23.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, one of the first times, uh, Jim was on the air, actually, uh, or the period of time where he, uh, he started being on the air on a regular basis.
[01:18:24.040 --> 01:18:28.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and there was a, uh, a daily news story about guess what?
[01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:29.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Metro cards.
[01:18:29.800 --> 01:18:35.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, um, right up Jim's alley, very enthusiastically took on that conversation.
[01:18:36.340 --> 01:18:42.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know Metro cards are about to be a thing of the past, but I think people will still find this fairly interesting.
[01:18:42.300 --> 01:18:42.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's listen.
[01:18:43.460 --> 01:18:48.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had some, some news involving the, uh, the Metro card this week.
[01:18:48.500 --> 01:18:55.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you read the daily news, I actually went out and I bought the daily news so I could get a copy of, uh, of this article.
[01:18:55.960 --> 01:19:03.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, apparently some of you out there have, uh, have been doing your homework and figuring out ways of, uh, of thwarting the Metro card.
[01:19:04.220 --> 01:19:08.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we have, uh, special guest Jim with us today.
[01:19:08.480 --> 01:19:13.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to explain exactly what that article was about and, uh, and, and, and what the trick is.
[01:19:14.200 --> 01:19:15.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, hi, Emmanuel.
[01:19:16.080 --> 01:19:27.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, this article in the Sunday daily news is pretty much, uh, a rehashing of stuff that's been on all 2600, panics, chat, and NYC transit.
[01:19:27.740 --> 01:19:38.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, there's only one minor, uh, new item and, uh, a few comments from, uh, the transit authorities, uh, vice president in charge of AFC.
[01:19:38.460 --> 01:19:40.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Automatic fare collection.
[01:19:40.620 --> 01:19:55.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the old stuff, uh, which I'm sure everyone knows is essentially, uh, there was a clerk at Whitehall street that, uh, whose computer somehow there was an error in the software where if you hit the right keys, which you normally weren't supposed to hit,
[01:19:55.860 --> 01:19:59.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: the computer would encode a card, but not register the card.
[01:19:59.360 --> 01:20:08.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it would work for a while, but, uh, it would, the clerk would never be held responsible for, uh, sending in the cash that he collected from selling the card.
[01:20:09.760 --> 01:20:28.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the, uh, the other one is that, uh, you can, uh, essentially copy a Metro card, uh, so that you have multiple identical cloned Metro cards, and that works until the computer realizes that there's more than one card floating around, and then it just,
[01:20:29.060 --> 01:20:31.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: uh, as the phrase goes, negative lists them all.
[01:20:32.180 --> 01:20:37.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, uh, you can essentially have as many one fair cards as you want for a while.
[01:20:38.660 --> 01:21:00.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the current, uh, new, uh, Metro card hack is supposedly you, um, use some sort of chemical spray, as BillSF suggested at, at Hope last year to, uh, make the, uh, magnetic stripe, which the Daily News in its infinite wisdom calls a barcode, make the magnetic stripe visible,
[01:21:00.700 --> 01:21:20.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: and through trial and error, or esoteric knowledge, or whatever, you figure out which particular magnetized area, uh, tells the computer at the turnstile to debit the card, and you just erase that, and, uh, your card works supposedly forever.
[01:21:20.960 --> 01:21:27.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the flaw in all these instances is that the way the system works, it's actually very ingenious.
[01:21:27.300 --> 01:21:31.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's not worth what the TA spent, which is at least three quarters of a billion.
[01:21:32.160 --> 01:21:34.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, that's billion with a B dollars.
[01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:41.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I'd like to point out that this fair hike and the next fair hike would be unnecessary if we just stuck the tokens, but anyway.
[01:21:42.040 --> 01:21:58.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the one ingenious thing is that, the way the system works, it looks at your card, after it's been encoded at the booth, and you pass it through the turnstile, looks at your card, and assumes on the first swipe, if you've swiped it correctly, right speed,
[01:21:58.780 --> 01:22:02.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: right angle, it assumes that, that it's good, and lets you through.
[01:22:02.580 --> 01:22:12.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Every so often, minutes, hours, it sends back to the transit authority's main computer at 130 livingston street in brooklyn, uh, a list of the cards that have gone through.
[01:22:14.240 --> 01:22:32.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if several turnstiles that are too close together report the same card going through, or if they report the same card different times with the same amount of money on it and no additional money added in between, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, it negative lists the card.
[01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:34.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: So... That's like a blacklist.
[01:22:34.360 --> 01:22:35.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, blacklist the card.
[01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:41.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, yeah, you can get a hacked card, but you'll be doing this all the time, you know?
[01:22:41.700 --> 01:22:42.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, now, here's something interesting.
[01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:47.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: They say that this has happened a total of 11 times, which I'm not sure if that's, that's correct.
[01:22:47.700 --> 01:22:50.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: 11 seems like a very small number for something like this.
[01:22:50.660 --> 01:22:55.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, they say that, uh, the TA traced one for a while attempting to trap the user.
[01:22:55.780 --> 01:22:58.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, how could they trace a card?
[01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:00.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: What kind of, what kind of method would they use?
[01:23:00.900 --> 01:23:03.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um... Are they monitoring where people are on the subway system?
[01:23:03.700 --> 01:23:05.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yes and no.
[01:23:05.660 --> 01:23:18.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, they could tell the turnstiles to update more often to the central computer and they could have it, uh, you know, on screen whenever it hits a card with a certain number, the suspect card.
[01:23:18.800 --> 01:23:21.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: So is this some sort of an office with a map and a little...
[01:23:21.460 --> 01:23:25.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't, I don't think... I don't think... Transit cops chasing the guy?
[01:23:25.900 --> 01:23:33.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, I don't think this is like every spy movie that you've seen with the map where the, the man has a swallowed transmitter and he's being tracked inch by inch.
[01:23:34.800 --> 01:23:41.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but no, you, you, you have an idea of what turnstile he went through at what time and you could find out maybe 30 seconds afterwards.
[01:23:41.980 --> 01:23:45.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, if he's using it at four in the morning, you have a good shot of getting it.
[01:23:45.720 --> 01:23:47.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: If he's using it... Especially if there are cameras at the stations.
[01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:52.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, there are very few where, where that actually happens and where it is, there's almost no videotape.
[01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:55.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're just, uh, watched by the, uh, the clerk in the booth.
[01:23:56.420 --> 01:24:02.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but you know, if, if the guy's waiting 20 minutes for a train and he's the only guy on the platform, you got a good chance of getting him.
[01:24:02.680 --> 01:24:06.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if he's using it at times squared, 5 PM, forget it.
[01:24:06.760 --> 01:24:07.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a bit trickier.
[01:24:07.560 --> 01:24:07.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:24:07.760 --> 01:24:08.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I learned something.
[01:24:08.940 --> 01:24:12.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: I learned this by reading a really good article in the times last week about the whole token situation.
[01:24:13.020 --> 01:24:19.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering, you know, they are going around changing every single token booth to accept the new tokens.
[01:24:19.500 --> 01:24:21.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was wondering, how much does this cost?
[01:24:21.300 --> 01:24:24.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And why can't they simply upgrade them to MetroCards at the same time?
[01:24:24.440 --> 01:24:32.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: I learned that the way they tell that, uh, how the token is supposed to look, they keep a, a, uh, like a model token in there inside the token booth.
[01:24:33.120 --> 01:24:35.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: And what they do is they simply replace it with the new token.
[01:24:35.620 --> 01:24:38.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: It has to match whatever is sitting inside that token booth.
[01:24:38.640 --> 01:24:40.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that's a little inaccurate.
[01:24:40.340 --> 01:24:41.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's not actually inside the booth.
[01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:50.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: What you're talking about is what's known as a comparator, uh, in the new, uh, stainless steel, uh, AFC or AFC capable automatic fare collection, capable turn styles.
[01:24:51.240 --> 01:24:55.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, they're a masterpiece of, uh, of digital circuitry.
[01:24:55.460 --> 01:25:01.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: And there's one board called the comparator, which essentially has a rough idea of a token in it.
[01:25:02.300 --> 01:25:10.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have to use separate boards for separate tokens, which is why when the fare goes up, wherever there's an AFC, uh, turn style, they have to put a different board in.
[01:25:12.160 --> 01:25:26.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: And what it does is since it's too complex, well, first of all, if they put in an exact image of a perfectly fine token, uh, pretty soon tokens will get banged up and bent and it won't match that.
[01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:30.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, so what they do is they put a rough image.
[01:25:30.900 --> 01:25:42.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not sure how rough, but a rough image of the, uh, the, uh, the planned token or the current token, and they let the computer, uh, sort of learn what real tokens look like.
[01:25:42.780 --> 01:25:48.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: In other words, if you put something in that's way too off, it simply won't register.
[01:25:48.220 --> 01:25:59.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you put something in that's close, a banged up token or a really good slug, uh, an artificial token that you may have made in metal shop, uh, it'll register it as good.
[01:25:59.600 --> 01:26:10.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it'll sort of make an, uh, a moving average of what it, what comes in, uh, as tokens get older and worse, it will start, believe it or not, rejecting new tokens.
[01:26:11.000 --> 01:26:14.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: This has been an occasional problem when they first started with the comparator.
[01:26:15.060 --> 01:26:17.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I was at a booth that had that problem.
[01:26:17.360 --> 01:26:19.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: We had one bag of new tokens.
[01:26:19.700 --> 01:26:21.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know where we got it, but we did.
[01:26:22.340 --> 01:26:24.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, they simply wouldn't register.
[01:26:25.580 --> 01:26:29.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're up to our last minute here, but I just wanted to ask you, since, uh, you know, so much about the system.
[01:26:30.060 --> 01:26:32.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, when is the, uh, the actual fair increases?
[01:26:33.060 --> 01:26:44.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: The fair, fair increase, uh, barring, uh, court order to the contrary will be, uh, at midnight, Saturday night into Sunday morning, November 11th into the 12th.
[01:26:44.500 --> 01:26:45.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's this weekend, folks.
[01:26:45.580 --> 01:26:54.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: So is there anything interesting that happens at that particular time, uh, technology wise, or is there anything that people can look out for that are interested in this kind of thing?
[01:26:54.620 --> 01:26:56.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, unfortunately, no.
[01:26:56.360 --> 01:27:04.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: What you might want to do is go to, uh, booths, uh, a day or two before in the dead of night and hang out crazy as that sounds.
[01:27:04.560 --> 01:27:13.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you'll be able to see various turnstile maintainers, uh, opening up the, uh, turnstiles on about half the turnstiles, changing the electronics, poking around.
[01:27:13.580 --> 01:27:16.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: You might be able to social engineer them for information.
[01:27:18.240 --> 01:27:18.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:27:18.900 --> 01:27:25.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was, um, from November, November 7th, 1995.
[01:27:26.080 --> 01:27:27.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why it sounded so crappy.
[01:27:27.760 --> 01:27:30.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was such a, such a long time ago.
[01:27:30.260 --> 01:27:37.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and that was Jim explaining, uh, more details about MetroCard security, transit authority machines, all sorts of things.
[01:27:37.520 --> 01:27:40.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's fascinating, even so many years later.
[01:27:40.540 --> 01:27:47.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, just, just, uh, one little piece from our archives of, of, um, of what he contributed.
[01:27:48.420 --> 01:27:49.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Such detail.
[01:27:49.660 --> 01:27:54.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like you're feel like you're going through this old turnstile, uh, electromechanical machine.
[01:27:54.800 --> 01:28:01.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: And as he's explaining just the theoretical, the components, the, uh, it's just fascinating.
[01:28:01.280 --> 01:28:13.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's fascinating to listen to and, uh, had such a, uh, a neat way of, uh, uh, walking you through what potentially could go wrong or how something might go or what you should look for.
[01:28:14.120 --> 01:28:23.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And just, you, you really could go along on a, um, mental journey with him, a hacker journey, um, on whatever it is.
[01:28:23.520 --> 01:28:31.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you were lucky enough to, to have taken part in conversations with him, um, then, uh, yeah, you would have definitely gone on a journey of all sorts of things.
[01:28:31.820 --> 01:28:31.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, yeah.
[01:28:31.900 --> 01:28:34.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then reminiscing, it's, uh, I feel the same way.
[01:28:34.600 --> 01:28:37.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm, I'm brought right there to, to, uh, the moment.
[01:28:37.400 --> 01:28:37.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Rob.
[01:28:39.100 --> 01:28:47.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: We, uh, we just, just before the show, we posted to our, uh, Twitter and Mastodon, and I encourage people to take a look at the link there.
[01:28:47.540 --> 01:28:52.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, we posted the picture that was on the front page of the New York times on August 11th, 1997.
[01:28:53.220 --> 01:29:00.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, when they, they sent a reporter to beyond hope and they printed this article called what galls a hacker most, the Metro card.
[01:29:01.060 --> 01:29:09.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: And there's this fabulous grainy news photo of Jim with his balaclava on and his, and his baseball cap and his 2,600 shirt, um, giving his presentation.
[01:29:10.540 --> 01:29:13.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, I, I encourage people to check this out.
[01:29:13.760 --> 01:29:22.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, you know, if you have times access or you can, uh, use a incognito mode or whatever to, to look at this, uh, New York times article, because it's still online.
[01:29:22.700 --> 01:29:36.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, uh, just read a, uh, short, uh, excerpt from it here where the reporter says disguised in his trademark red ski mask and a yellow transit authority baseball cap given to employees, red balaclava who refuses to identify himself for obvious reasons,
[01:29:36.760 --> 01:29:45.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: but who showed his transit authority identification card to a reporter gave a seminar yesterday, summing up the progress thus far overcoming the now ubiquitous Metro card is an issue of privacy.
[01:29:45.160 --> 01:29:47.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: He insisted not free rides quote.
[01:29:47.420 --> 01:29:48.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: They can tell you where you've been.
[01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:52.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: And when you've been there, he said, all the information is stored on their computers.
[01:29:52.180 --> 01:29:54.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Doesn't anyone here have a problem with that besides me?
[01:29:54.640 --> 01:29:55.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[01:29:55.160 --> 01:29:56.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Came the resounding reply.
[01:29:57.720 --> 01:29:58.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[01:29:58.220 --> 01:30:01.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And of course that talk, uh, is also still online.
[01:30:01.240 --> 01:30:06.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, uh, you're on the channel right now where it exists to just wander over to a different part of the channel.
[01:30:06.580 --> 01:30:21.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, just go to beyond hope in the hope section and, um, and, and look for, um, for the talk about Metro cards and it'll be, it'll continue to be fascinating, you know, to this day, uh, you know, did anyone ever talk to Jim about the new system that is replacing Metro cards.
[01:30:22.040 --> 01:30:27.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And cause you know, as far as privacy issues, I think there are a lot more privacy issues involving that system.
[01:30:27.540 --> 01:30:30.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's gotten a lot more complete, you know?
[01:30:30.460 --> 01:30:30.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:30:30.680 --> 01:30:32.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: It makes his insights really prophetic.
[01:30:32.600 --> 01:30:32.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[01:30:33.300 --> 01:30:33.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[01:30:34.300 --> 01:30:34.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:30:34.700 --> 01:30:38.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unfortunately, I don't think I ever got the chance to talk with him about, uh, the Omni system.
[01:30:38.220 --> 01:30:38.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:30:38.620 --> 01:30:52.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, yeah, but, uh, it's, it's incredible to think that the concerns he was raising in the 1990s when we were moving off of metal tokens, which are, you know, their coins, they're anonymous, they're, they're, you know, safe, uh, indicators of value.
[01:30:52.600 --> 01:31:08.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and going on to Metro cards, which were such a game changer in terms of like your privacy and in terms of, um, entities out there knowing where you are, where you're going, when you're there and how normal that seems now in the mainstream, uh, just,
[01:31:08.680 --> 01:31:11.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: uh, regarding the attitudes to these things among people.
[01:31:11.420 --> 01:31:14.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: It doesn't seem strange now for people to be tracked when they're using transit.
[01:31:14.700 --> 01:31:25.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that's, that's something that's so true of, um, so many forms of technology, uh, things that, you know, we talked about in the, in the phone phreak days, you know, trying to, uh, uh, make free phone calls.
[01:31:26.060 --> 01:31:26.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now it's the norm.
[01:31:26.780 --> 01:31:27.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now everybody does it.
[01:31:27.680 --> 01:31:29.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, nobody thinks twice about these things.
[01:31:29.680 --> 01:31:46.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, so when you raise security issues, oftentimes, um, that is a predictor of the future in one way or another, either they become reality or they're prevented, uh, based on the warnings that were given when, when the technology was in its infancy.
[01:31:46.780 --> 01:31:51.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, uh, I'm so glad we were able to have these conversations and we're able to archive them.
[01:31:51.700 --> 01:31:56.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I'm sure people will be referring to this for, for many decades to come.
[01:31:58.940 --> 01:31:59.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Absolutely.
[01:31:59.720 --> 01:32:09.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, yeah, if you go to Channel2600 on YouTube and just search for the word MetroCard, you'll get both his talks, his talk from Hope in 1994 and his talk from Beyond Hope in 1997 about the MetroCard.
[01:32:10.380 --> 01:32:12.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: And yeah, those are there.
[01:32:13.080 --> 01:32:13.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: They will remain there.
[01:32:15.660 --> 01:32:19.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Unless YouTube decides that they're unacceptable, which they've done before.
[01:32:20.040 --> 01:32:21.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully that doesn't happen again.
[01:32:24.200 --> 01:32:26.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, uh, haven't heard from you recently.
[01:32:26.080 --> 01:32:30.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Any, any, uh, other thoughts, memories, or, uh, stories you want to tell?
[01:32:30.920 --> 01:32:45.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this has been really great, I think, to listen to and cathartic in a way too, but I was just thinking myself, I think it was 1994 when I met Jim and I got, I mean, I knew him for almost 30 years.
[01:32:46.040 --> 01:32:53.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was a kid when I met Jim, I was still in high school, um, and sneaking into the city to hang out with you guys.
[01:32:54.880 --> 01:32:58.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was, you know, he was just a welcoming, friendly face.
[01:32:58.840 --> 01:33:04.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I remember he was always with Pam, who became his wife.
[01:33:05.000 --> 01:33:12.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, I used to unintentionally call him, um, him and jam instead of Jim and Pam.
[01:33:14.040 --> 01:33:15.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: See, uh, the spooner ism.
[01:33:15.940 --> 01:33:19.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that always just stuck in my head, but you know, Pam and Jim, Pam and jam.
[01:33:19.780 --> 01:33:22.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but he was just, he was an awesome guy.
[01:33:23.020 --> 01:33:28.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like we were really all just robbed of his intellect for a while.
[01:33:28.560 --> 01:33:30.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is really, I want to go back to that again.
[01:33:30.420 --> 01:33:33.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I forgot how smart Jim was.
[01:33:34.000 --> 01:33:35.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I really, really did.
[01:33:35.560 --> 01:33:49.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and I think that it was particularly cruel to have to spend these last couple of years in the midst of mostly a health crisis and a pandemic that was even first or further isolated for him.
[01:33:49.420 --> 01:33:50.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's true.
[01:33:51.260 --> 01:33:54.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that just sucked, but you know, he weathered through it.
[01:33:54.680 --> 01:34:09.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and that story you told Emmanuel about the last time you saw him, I don't think that I think there's a silver lining to that one because it, it may be the last time you saw him, but it also indicates the kind of guy that Jim was.
[01:34:09.680 --> 01:34:14.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: He showed up to the station to hang out with us when he could barely even talk.
[01:34:14.780 --> 01:34:26.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he wanted to participate in the show so badly that he went and literally risked his life to be at the station that day, knowing that the pandemic was about to be in full swing.
[01:34:26.240 --> 01:34:27.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you call it a communication hour.
[01:34:28.080 --> 01:34:42.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I call it an indication of his dedication and his, um, and I, and I think, you know, you being there and thinking about it now, you know, he was, um, he just wanted to hang out with his friends.
[01:34:42.500 --> 01:34:42.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[01:34:42.740 --> 01:34:45.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it would have been a much brighter day if we had actually gotten to do that.
[01:34:46.960 --> 01:34:47.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:34:47.360 --> 01:34:48.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Something I always regret.
[01:34:49.540 --> 01:34:50.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, all right.
[01:34:50.720 --> 01:35:04.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, listen, uh, I think, um, we're kind of worn out here from, uh, all this, uh, all this, uh, remembering and being sad and, uh, all sorts of other things.
[01:35:04.500 --> 01:35:05.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, you know what?
[01:35:05.160 --> 01:35:07.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have one more, one more excerpt.
[01:35:07.480 --> 01:35:18.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know I, you know, there's so many more I could have, I could have played, but the very first time, the very first time that, uh, Jim spoke in front of a crowd was at the hope conference.
[01:35:18.740 --> 01:35:29.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, as far as I know, I don't know if he spoke in front of the crowd before that, but as far as in the hacker community, uh, it was that day, Saturday, August 13th, 1994, 1 PM.
[01:35:29.940 --> 01:35:34.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's when, uh, the MetroCard talk, the first MetroCard talk took place.
[01:35:35.620 --> 01:35:38.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I'm just going to play a few minutes of that.
[01:35:39.340 --> 01:35:42.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: This has a, uh, a final excerpt for our friend, Jim.
[01:35:43.960 --> 01:35:48.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had some, some news involving the, uh, the MetroCard this week.
[01:35:48.920 --> 01:35:55.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you read the daily news, I actually went out and I bought the daily news so that I could get a copy of, uh, of this article.
[01:35:56.420 --> 01:35:59.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and I'm sorry, I'm playing the wrong excerpt.
[01:35:59.560 --> 01:36:02.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hold on one second while I play the correct excerpt.
[01:36:03.340 --> 01:36:09.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, uh, without further ado, um, our anonymous transit authority spokesperson.
[01:36:30.640 --> 01:36:34.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, you may recognize me from Libya three years ago.
[01:36:38.300 --> 01:36:43.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Emmanuel gives me a little more credit when he used the word program.
[01:36:44.000 --> 01:36:49.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I am what is known as a railroad clerk, what the public would call a token seller.
[01:36:50.580 --> 01:36:54.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, it's not a great job, but it pays the bills.
[01:36:55.120 --> 01:37:03.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, as far as the MetroCard goes, uh, we've got a little document that supposedly we printed up a couple hundred copies.
[01:37:03.580 --> 01:37:04.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: I see a lot of them here.
[01:37:04.660 --> 01:37:05.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's good.
[01:37:05.480 --> 01:37:10.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we've got an addendum which, uh, will be available afterwards on a few other things that we've picked up.
[01:37:11.520 --> 01:37:26.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, uh, as far as we know, the MetroCard, in all internal documentation, both for railroad clerks, the friendly people in the token booths, and for, uh, technicians, states that the card is a magnetic stripe card.
[01:37:27.480 --> 01:37:33.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, this could be disinformation, but somehow we really don't, at least I don't really think so.
[01:37:33.860 --> 01:37:36.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, they wouldn't go to such great lengths.
[01:37:37.200 --> 01:37:40.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: A MetroCard is essentially a credit card-sized card, but smaller.
[01:37:40.940 --> 01:37:42.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if people have seen it.
[01:37:42.540 --> 01:37:44.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've got one in my pocket, which I'll hold up.
[01:37:46.380 --> 01:37:48.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: It has a magnetic stripe on it.
[01:37:48.960 --> 01:37:50.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's brightly colored.
[01:37:52.280 --> 01:37:58.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: It does not, like systems in Washington DC and other places, have the value printed on it.
[01:38:01.480 --> 01:38:08.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Instead, you're expected to swipe this through the turnstile or a, quote, MetroCard reader, in order to tell the value.
[01:38:08.900 --> 01:38:12.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: The back of each card has three items printed on it.
[01:38:12.520 --> 01:38:22.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: An expiration date, a six-digit batch number, which is the same for at least every 100 cards, and a 10-digit serial number.
[01:38:24.280 --> 01:38:31.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: We also, uh, know to some extent what's on the magnetic stripe or possibly barcode.
[01:38:32.040 --> 01:38:39.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, they are the same things that are physically printed on the back of the card, the expiration date, the batch number, the serial number.
[01:38:39.900 --> 01:38:43.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: The type of card, is it pre-encoded for fifteen dollars?
[01:38:44.200 --> 01:38:45.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is it non-pre-encoded?
[01:38:45.420 --> 01:38:47.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: In other words, was it blank and did you get made up at the booth?
[01:38:48.280 --> 01:38:50.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or is it an employee card?
[01:38:50.680 --> 01:38:56.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: The current amount on the card, the date and time of last use and turnstile, and there's probably other information.
[01:38:57.260 --> 01:39:06.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: As Emmanuel mentioned, if it's a barcode reader or even if it's a magnetic stripe where all that's stored is a serial number, this stuff is not actually on the card.
[01:39:06.800 --> 01:39:21.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Instead, you're getting it after it goes through the turnstile to the token booth computer, to an area computer, to the main computer, a transit authority's, uh, building at 130 Livingston Street in downtown Brooklyn.
[01:39:23.060 --> 01:39:28.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are some arguments that it is magnetic stripe having to do with that.
[01:39:28.960 --> 01:39:39.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Namely, that, uh, turnstiles are supposed to take cards if they become linked only to the local token booth computer and no higher up the hierarchy.
[01:39:39.840 --> 01:39:43.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: A turnstile is supposed to take 3,000 fares at that point.
[01:39:44.180 --> 01:39:49.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: This can be 3,000 tokens, 3,000 swipes of a card, or a combination thereof.
[01:39:49.240 --> 01:39:53.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: That sort of speaks against, uh, information not being directly on the card.
[01:39:55.720 --> 01:39:59.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, if there are any really deep questions at any point, ask.
[01:39:59.800 --> 01:40:01.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: If there's any not so deep questions, save it.
[01:40:02.080 --> 01:40:03.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Man in purple with beard.
[01:40:04.320 --> 01:40:04.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:40:04.920 --> 01:40:06.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, man in purple with beard is going to have to wait.
[01:40:07.080 --> 01:40:12.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, that's our final clip from Jim, our good friend who passed away last Thursday.
[01:40:12.820 --> 01:40:14.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, go ahead, Gila.
[01:40:14.860 --> 01:40:18.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, I just found a picture on my phone.
[01:40:19.220 --> 01:40:25.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, the truth is that you never know when a moment is going to be significant or not.
[01:40:25.720 --> 01:40:30.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the picture is from March 11th, 2020.
[01:40:30.360 --> 01:40:33.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's the last time that we were all in the studio together.
[01:40:33.900 --> 01:40:38.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, the week before Rob and I had been remote on the payphones in our neighborhood.
[01:40:38.880 --> 01:40:40.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: And on the 11th, we were all there.
[01:40:40.780 --> 01:40:45.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this seems like an irrelevant detail, but my hair was really long at that point.
[01:40:45.940 --> 01:40:47.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was really hot in the studio.
[01:40:48.300 --> 01:40:53.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Kyle, I don't know if you're going to remember this, but I was trying to put my hair up with a pen and I couldn't do it correctly.
[01:40:53.660 --> 01:40:56.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you helped me get the angle, right?
[01:40:56.400 --> 01:40:56.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:40:56.820 --> 01:41:03.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I took a bunch of pictures of the back of my head because I was able to put my hair up with a pen for the first time in my life.
[01:41:03.940 --> 01:41:14.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in the background of one of these pictures is Jim wearing a 2600 hat and just grinning and just looking so happy.
[01:41:14.940 --> 01:41:19.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that is the last time that we were all together in one place.
[01:41:19.500 --> 01:41:22.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I just sent that picture to our show list.
[01:41:23.080 --> 01:41:24.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you guys can all have it.
[01:41:24.480 --> 01:41:33.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: So enjoy the back of my neck, but more to the point, enjoy seeing Jim and you never know when a moment is going to be significant.
[01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:35.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, but I'm really glad I found that.
[01:41:36.400 --> 01:41:41.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully we can, we can share that, um, on, on one of our sites and, uh, thank you.
[01:41:41.460 --> 01:41:42.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for finding that.
[01:41:42.800 --> 01:41:49.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: I remember, I remember distinctly that now that you bring that up, it's so funny, so psyched about it was funny.
[01:41:49.320 --> 01:41:50.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's like, you nailed it.
[01:41:50.500 --> 01:41:52.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like once you had the, we, we got it.
[01:41:52.640 --> 01:41:57.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's brilliant that Jim was there along with us, just watching our antics.
[01:41:57.900 --> 01:41:58.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:41:58.400 --> 01:42:00.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder what I was doing and I have no memory of this whatsoever.
[01:42:01.320 --> 01:42:01.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:42:01.640 --> 01:42:03.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: You were like running the board, man.
[01:42:03.400 --> 01:42:04.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, that's right.
[01:42:04.280 --> 01:42:05.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing a radio show.
[01:42:05.860 --> 01:42:08.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have no idea what's going on around me when I'm doing a radio show.
[01:42:08.300 --> 01:42:10.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, it was still a new, new studio at that point.
[01:42:11.120 --> 01:42:13.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're still acclimating and so forth.
[01:42:13.640 --> 01:42:13.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[01:42:14.560 --> 01:42:14.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:42:14.900 --> 01:42:17.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll put this picture out on Twitter and mess it on, uh, in a couple of minutes.
[01:42:17.980 --> 01:42:18.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Great.
[01:42:19.560 --> 01:42:20.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, looks like you have something to say.
[01:42:20.960 --> 01:42:25.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you holding your hand up or just holding your hand up?
[01:42:25.200 --> 01:42:25.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:42:25.720 --> 01:42:30.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's been a, uh, yeah, a great night of, uh, remembrance.
[01:42:30.740 --> 01:42:31.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It is pretty exhausting though.
[01:42:31.940 --> 01:42:33.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have to say it is.
[01:42:33.200 --> 01:42:33.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:42:33.900 --> 01:42:35.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm busted up myself.
[01:42:35.540 --> 01:42:36.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not doing well.
[01:42:36.920 --> 01:42:37.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:42:37.520 --> 01:42:37.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's been tough.
[01:42:38.160 --> 01:42:42.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just dreading thinking about what to say, you know, and, and all the things you could say.
[01:42:42.800 --> 01:42:43.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[01:42:43.520 --> 01:42:55.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I, I, I, I heard probably like all of you did, uh, from Pam last Thursday when it was Thanksgiving and I think it was the afternoon when I, I found out, I remember thinking like, I'm just going to keep it to myself.
[01:42:55.920 --> 01:43:03.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were having such a, a good Thanksgiving and, you know, I didn't want to, you know, weigh on my wife and say, Hey, a good friend of mine just died.
[01:43:04.200 --> 01:43:06.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I just kind of bottled it up until the evening.
[01:43:07.020 --> 01:43:09.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, it's good to be able to let it out.
[01:43:09.660 --> 01:43:10.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:43:10.020 --> 01:43:10.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: I did the same.
[01:43:10.700 --> 01:43:18.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was out with family and, uh, found out when I took a step aside for something and checked my phone and yeah, I kept it to myself the rest of the evening as well.
[01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:20.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And yeah, you weren't alone in that.
[01:43:21.540 --> 01:43:21.940]  Yeah.
[01:43:22.380 --> 01:43:23.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's really nice to hear, Rob.
[01:43:23.700 --> 01:43:24.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:25.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, folks.
[01:43:25.740 --> 01:43:28.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it was, it was great, uh, sharing this with you.
[01:43:28.620 --> 01:43:45.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I just want to thank you all for, uh, for being here, not only tonight, but for Jim in the past and, um, for all those that will come because there are so many people, magical people, a bit strange in the eyes of society, perhaps, but with so much to contribute,
[01:43:46.080 --> 01:43:47.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: such, um, remarkable souls.
[01:43:47.920 --> 01:43:49.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's an honor to be part of that.
[01:43:52.440 --> 01:44:08.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, just really quickly, because we've got 2600 meetings coming up this week, I know that some people are suggesting that if you go to your local 2600 meeting this week, maybe bring your balaclava and see if you can get a picture of yourself and some fellow hackers in memory of our friends.
[01:44:08.440 --> 01:44:14.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, considering the New York Times didn't know what a balaclava was and called it a ski mask, um, how does one get a hold of that?
[01:44:15.460 --> 01:44:17.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Where do you get a balaclava these days?
[01:44:18.740 --> 01:44:20.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: They, they sell them on tables all over the city.
[01:44:21.400 --> 01:44:22.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That, that's true.
[01:44:22.560 --> 01:44:26.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you can, I've heard there's online platforms where you could order red ones.
[01:44:26.560 --> 01:44:27.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've looked.
[01:44:27.680 --> 01:44:28.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you better hurry.
[01:44:28.780 --> 01:44:30.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's Wednesday and the meeting's day after tomorrow.
[01:44:31.080 --> 01:44:31.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[01:44:31.820 --> 01:44:33.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some of them do, you know, 24 hour delivery.
[01:44:34.220 --> 01:44:34.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've heard.
[01:44:34.800 --> 01:44:42.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I always read his, uh, handle and stuff as, uh, um, um, baklava.
[01:44:42.680 --> 01:44:43.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Red baklava.
[01:44:43.620 --> 01:44:44.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, baklava.
[01:44:44.800 --> 01:44:44.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:44:45.020 --> 01:44:56.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, and, but I always corrected myself and to the point where it was just like an automatic, uh, uh, ongoing joke every time I said it to myself, like, it's just red funny.
[01:44:56.780 --> 01:44:58.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the mind's crazy.
[01:44:58.500 --> 01:45:07.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but he'll be so missed and just, you know, long live red bar, uh, baklava, bell, balaclava.
[01:45:08.060 --> 01:45:09.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Jeopardy Jim, Red Balaclava.
[01:45:10.180 --> 01:45:10.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:13.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Our Jim, however you want to remember him.
[01:45:14.240 --> 01:45:15.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: We always will.
[01:45:16.540 --> 01:45:17.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: See you in two weeks, guys.