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[01:02.860 --> 01:06.830] [BIG_AUD_DY]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off.
[01:08.220 --> 01:10.300] [BIG_AUD_DY]: I cut myself while shaving.
[01:10.800 --> 01:12.820] [BIG_AUD_DY]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:13.680 --> 01:15.610] [BIG_AUD_DY]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:22.290 --> 01:23.630] [BIG_AUD_DY]: I hope that's understood.
[01:23.970 --> 01:24.630] [BIG_AUD_DY]: One minute more.
[02:42.990 --> 02:44.730] [EVILCORLEY]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:44.830 --> 02:46.890] [EVILCORLEY]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:47.150 --> 02:49.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:49.910 --> 02:51.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:52.350 --> 02:53.190] [KYLEDROSDK]: Over here.
[02:53.470 --> 02:55.910] [EVILCORLEY]: And over in Skype-land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
[02:57.230 --> 02:58.010] [ROBVINCENT]: Good evening.
[02:58.010 --> 02:59.030] [EVILCORLEY]: We have Gila.
[02:59.550 --> 03:00.150] [GILADRAZEN]: Good evening.
[03:00.490 --> 03:03.210] [EVILCORLEY]: And we have our very special guest for tonight, Space Rogue.
[03:03.450 --> 03:03.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Welcome.
[03:06.230 --> 03:07.590] [EVILCORLEY]: And Space Rogue, I think you're muted.
[03:08.550 --> 03:10.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Hang on, I think maybe we muted you.
[03:11.490 --> 03:12.330] [SPACEROGUE]: Somebody muted me.
[03:12.430 --> 03:12.590] [SPACEROGUE]: Okay.
[03:12.690 --> 03:13.210] [SPACEROGUE]: Might have been me.
[03:13.310 --> 03:13.610] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know.
[03:13.710 --> 03:14.410] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm unmuted now.
[03:14.530 --> 03:15.370] [SPACEROGUE]: Thank you for having me here.
[03:15.430 --> 03:16.030] [SPACEROGUE]: Glad to be here.
[03:16.170 --> 03:17.130] [EVILCORLEY]: Unmuted, unshackled.
[03:17.210 --> 03:17.910] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the way we like it.
[03:18.050 --> 03:27.710] [EVILCORLEY]: So before we get started tonight, I just wanted to reassure some listeners because we've been getting a lot of panicky emails and some phone calls of one visit.
[03:28.670 --> 03:31.290] [EVILCORLEY]: And people really seem to be thinking, this is it.
[03:31.370 --> 03:32.350] [EVILCORLEY]: This is the end of civilization.
[03:32.770 --> 03:33.490] [EVILCORLEY]: And you know what?
[03:33.510 --> 03:34.130] [EVILCORLEY]: It might be.
[03:34.270 --> 03:35.030] [EVILCORLEY]: It might very well be.
[03:35.110 --> 03:37.350] [EVILCORLEY]: But it's not because of ChatGPT.
[03:37.510 --> 03:38.870] [EVILCORLEY]: So let's calm down.
[03:39.070 --> 03:47.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, what I did right before the show, I had a little conference with ChatGPT and I asked the question, how can I tell the difference between a human and a chatbot?
[03:47.390 --> 03:50.190] [EVILCORLEY]: And this is what the source says.
[03:50.370 --> 03:50.990] [EVILCORLEY]: So please listen.
[03:51.170 --> 03:58.670] [EVILCORLEY]: It can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference between a human and a chatbot, especially if the chatbot is programmed to simulate human-like conversation.
[03:58.890 --> 04:03.030] [EVILCORLEY]: However, there are a few things you can look for to help you distinguish between the two.
[04:03.470 --> 04:04.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Response time.
[04:04.910 --> 04:10.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Chatbots typically respond much faster than humans as they are able to process and generate responses instantly.
[04:10.870 --> 04:16.530] [EVILCORLEY]: If you receive a response almost immediately after sending a message, it's likely you're talking to a chatbot.
[04:16.710 --> 04:21.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Whereas if it takes a day for somebody to get back to you, yeah, pretty sure that's a human.
[04:22.070 --> 04:22.270] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[04:23.190 --> 04:23.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Consistency.
[04:23.770 --> 04:30.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Chatbots tend to be consistent in their responses, both in terms of the tone and language they use, as well as the information they provide.
[04:30.450 --> 04:36.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Humans, on the other hand, may vary in their responses depending on factors such as mood, context, and personal experience.
[04:36.990 --> 04:38.530] [EVILCORLEY]: That's kind of like a diss, isn't it?
[04:38.850 --> 04:42.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Kind of saying that we're inconsistent, we don't really say the same thing all the time.
[04:42.190 --> 04:49.810] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, the asymmetry, the imperfections, the nuance and long pauses.
[04:49.990 --> 04:51.590] [EVILCORLEY]: So they're quick, they're consistent.
[04:52.010 --> 04:52.350] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[04:52.510 --> 04:54.030] [EVILCORLEY]: But we make up for it in complexity.
[04:54.210 --> 05:02.550] [EVILCORLEY]: While chatbots are getting increasingly sophisticated, they may still struggle with more complex conversations or responding to unexpected questions.
[05:02.550 --> 05:10.750] [EVILCORLEY]: If you're asking a question that requires a lot of context or knowledge, and the response you get is overly simplistic or generic, it's possible you're talking to a chatbot.
[05:11.590 --> 05:12.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Emotion.
[05:12.450 --> 05:19.110] [EVILCORLEY]: While chatbots can be programmed to simulate emotion, they are not able to experience emotions in the same way that humans do.
[05:19.370 --> 05:28.230] [EVILCORLEY]: If you're having a conversation that involves strong emotions or personal experiences and the responses you're receiving feel detached or robotic, it's possible you're talking to a chatbot.
[05:29.410 --> 05:31.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Or one of us.
[05:31.970 --> 05:32.770] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know.
[05:33.030 --> 05:33.910] [KYLEDROSDK]: Depends on the day.
[05:34.090 --> 05:35.930] [EVILCORLEY]: That meets the definition of so many people I know.
[05:36.550 --> 05:41.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Ultimately, the best way to tell whether you're talking to a human or a chatbot is to ask them directly.
[05:41.510 --> 05:42.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, yeah, right.
[05:42.170 --> 05:42.770] [EVILCORLEY]: That's going to work.
[05:42.850 --> 05:43.630] [KYLEDROSDK]: Are you a chatbot?
[05:43.770 --> 05:44.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Humans don't tell the truth.
[05:44.930 --> 05:45.710] [EVILCORLEY]: We know that by now.
[05:45.710 --> 05:53.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, many chatbots will identify themselves as such if asked, and humans will typically respond in a way that confirms their identity.
[05:53.650 --> 05:56.310] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know about this chatbot here.
[05:56.390 --> 06:00.450] [EVILCORLEY]: It doesn't seem very experienced with the ways of either chatbots or humans.
[06:00.610 --> 06:01.850] [EVILCORLEY]: But you know what?
[06:01.910 --> 06:03.050] [EVILCORLEY]: We just have to calm down.
[06:03.250 --> 06:03.990] [EVILCORLEY]: It's technology.
[06:03.990 --> 06:04.850] [EVILCORLEY]: It's a tool.
[06:05.050 --> 06:05.730] [EVILCORLEY]: It's something new.
[06:05.870 --> 06:07.050] [EVILCORLEY]: It's something fun to play with.
[06:07.550 --> 06:10.750] [EVILCORLEY]: And yes, eventually we will be buried by it, but that's down the road.
[06:15.710 --> 06:22.110] [EVILCORLEY]: It's called Space Rogue: How the Hackers Known as L0pht Changed the World.
[06:24.050 --> 06:29.370] [EVILCORLEY]: And you guys most definitely did change the world, both of you who don't know.
[06:29.410 --> 06:33.470] [EVILCORLEY]: The L0pht was one of the first ever hacker spaces in the Boston area.
[06:34.350 --> 06:45.090] [EVILCORLEY]: These guys pretty much were superstars of the time and still are to this day, still making headlines in various manners.
[06:45.090 --> 06:47.730] [EVILCORLEY]: You testified in front of Congress in 1998.
[06:49.250 --> 06:58.110] [EVILCORLEY]: I'd like to sort of set the tone just by reading a brief excerpt from your book, which just came out fairly recently.
[06:58.510 --> 07:06.090] [EVILCORLEY]: This is all about something that every hacker knows a little bit about, and that's choosing a handle.
[07:06.390 --> 07:09.830] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, that rite of passage that we all go through.
[07:10.350 --> 07:13.310] [EVILCORLEY]: So this comes from the book.
[07:13.310 --> 07:24.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Shortly after I left Boston University in the spring of 1991 and was working as a rent-a-cop at the Lafayette Place Mall, I called up a new online bulletin board, or BBS, for the first time.
[07:24.330 --> 07:26.370] [EVILCORLEY]: I think it was simply called M.
[07:26.970 --> 07:33.570] [EVILCORLEY]: They requested that users create a unique username, something totally new that had not been used on any other system.
[07:34.010 --> 07:39.490] [EVILCORLEY]: The goal was to foster open communication without the baggage an existing identity would bring with it.
[07:39.490 --> 07:41.990] [EVILCORLEY]: I thought anonymity was an intriguing idea.
[07:42.210 --> 07:46.870] [EVILCORLEY]: No one would know who anyone else was, elite or lamer, old-timer or newbie.
[07:46.990 --> 07:47.950] [EVILCORLEY]: It wouldn't matter.
[07:48.230 --> 07:51.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Everyone on this new BBS would start out at the same level.
[07:51.590 --> 07:54.210] [EVILCORLEY]: I thought really hard about a new handle.
[07:54.750 --> 07:57.090] [EVILCORLEY]: Your handle became your identity.
[07:57.090 --> 08:01.090] [EVILCORLEY]: It was the only unique item you took with you online.
[08:01.270 --> 08:06.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Your handle was linked to your reputation, your hacking capabilities, and your previous exploits.
[08:06.950 --> 08:10.570] [EVILCORLEY]: It was essentially a full resume summed up in one word or phrase.
[08:11.270 --> 08:13.190] [EVILCORLEY]: BBSs were all text all the time.
[08:13.290 --> 08:17.330] [EVILCORLEY]: No graphics, no icons, or avatars to go along with your posts and musings.
[08:17.710 --> 08:22.650] [EVILCORLEY]: The only thing that set your messages apart from everyone else's was your username.
[08:23.090 --> 08:26.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Your status was based on what you wrote, and it was all attached to your handle.
[08:27.290 --> 08:33.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Early systems could only accommodate eight-character usernames, often not enough for a full first or last name.
[08:33.490 --> 08:36.870] [EVILCORLEY]: So people started to get creative, and handles became the norm.
[08:37.090 --> 08:39.290] [EVILCORLEY]: I wanted something cool for this new BBS.
[08:39.530 --> 08:48.030] [EVILCORLEY]: When the only thing separating your electronic bytes from someone else's bytes was your name or handle, that moniker takes on a greater significance.
[08:48.070 --> 08:58.710] [EVILCORLEY]: I started looking around my bedroom for inspiration, and I hit upon the book that I was reading, Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers, on the Computer Frontier, by Katie Hafner and John Markoff.
[08:58.930 --> 09:03.890] [EVILCORLEY]: The book was over the top, full of exaggeration and inaccuracies, but still enthralling.
[09:03.890 --> 09:08.130] [EVILCORLEY]: While I didn't know it at the time, the book had a significant influence on me.
[09:08.330 --> 09:12.230] [EVILCORLEY]: I began freely associating with the title, especially the cyber part.
[09:12.490 --> 09:22.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Even at that point, I knew using any handle with the word cyber in it would not be a wise choice, and in these early days of the Internet, cyber was considered an almost dirty word.
[09:22.630 --> 09:29.170] [EVILCORLEY]: But cyber led me to cyberspace, so I started working with space instead, and somehow hit on Space Rogue.
[09:30.450 --> 09:33.550] [EVILCORLEY]: I spent maybe all of 10 minutes coming up with it.
[09:34.010 --> 09:36.450] [EVILCORLEY]: There was a new BBS that I wanted to get into.
[09:36.550 --> 09:39.730] [EVILCORLEY]: I didn't have time to stand around trying to pick the perfect handle.
[09:40.130 --> 09:43.130] [EVILCORLEY]: I just needed something new that was good enough for right now.
[09:43.130 --> 09:45.350] [EVILCORLEY]: I thought it would be a throwaway, one-time use.
[09:45.530 --> 09:47.830] [EVILCORLEY]: I would use it on this board, and that would be it.
[09:47.990 --> 09:48.870] [EVILCORLEY]: I had no idea.
[09:49.010 --> 09:51.790] [EVILCORLEY]: The Space Rogue would stick so well that I would still be using it, still holding out.
[10:00.810 --> 10:03.330] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, well, it's interesting because I'm now...
[10:03.330 --> 10:08.870] [SPACEROGUE]: If you notice, the book actually has my given name on the cover as opposed to just Space Rogue.
[10:09.070 --> 10:10.770] [EVILCORLEY]: I wanted to ask if it's okay to use that.
[10:11.050 --> 10:11.790] [EVILCORLEY]: You can.
[10:12.130 --> 10:14.510] [EVILCORLEY]: It's on the cover of the book, so I wanted to ask first, though.
[10:15.390 --> 10:15.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, thank you.
[10:16.070 --> 10:16.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Welcome, Cris.
[10:16.310 --> 10:16.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Not everybody does.
[10:17.170 --> 10:18.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Cris Thomas is okay.
[10:18.530 --> 10:22.390] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, Cris Thomas is the given name, and that is the author name of the book.
[10:22.970 --> 10:32.630] [SPACEROGUE]: So I've been using Space Rogue professionally for 30 years, basically, and have only recently started to use the given name in professional settings.
[10:33.290 --> 10:36.810] [SPACEROGUE]: It's hard to get paid as Space Rogue, which kind of...
[10:36.810 --> 10:42.110] [SPACEROGUE]: You know, you kind of can't go to the bank and show ID as Space Rogue to open a bank account anymore.
[10:42.370 --> 10:43.390] [SPACEROGUE]: Not that you ever could.
[10:43.930 --> 10:46.830] [SPACEROGUE]: But so, you know, if I wanted to get paid, I had to start using the given name.
[10:46.970 --> 10:51.930] [SPACEROGUE]: But even then, I still tried to use the handle all the time because that's what everybody knew me as.
[10:51.950 --> 10:53.010] [SPACEROGUE]: I didn't want to...
[10:53.530 --> 10:57.190] [SPACEROGUE]: I still wanted to take advantage of that historical nature of the handle.
[10:58.030 --> 11:00.730] [SPACEROGUE]: But when I came to the book, I was like...
[11:00.730 --> 11:10.170] [SPACEROGUE]: I thought about publishing it just as Space Rogue, but I also realized that was going to cause a few hurdles that I might have to jump over that I probably might not want to jump over.
[11:10.910 --> 11:13.570] [SPACEROGUE]: So I put the given name on the book as well.
[11:14.630 --> 11:15.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[11:15.310 --> 11:16.790] [EVILCORLEY]: And of course, you're known as SR, too.
[11:17.610 --> 11:17.870] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[11:18.070 --> 11:23.510] [SPACEROGUE]: So people call me SR, Space, Mr. Rogue, Rouge.
[11:23.790 --> 11:25.510] [SPACEROGUE]: Some people mispronounce it as Space Rouge.
[11:25.910 --> 11:26.030] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[11:26.730 --> 11:28.190] [SPACEROGUE]: You know, think I'm all red or something?
[11:28.290 --> 11:28.610] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know.
[11:29.010 --> 11:31.550] [SPACEROGUE]: But yeah, I answer to most anything these days.
[11:32.490 --> 11:32.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[11:33.030 --> 11:51.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I think probably the thing that people are most aware of with the L0pht in general, we'll talk about a bunch of your other projects as well, but the thing that the L0pht was known for was that testimony in that spring day in 1998, I believe it was in May.
[11:52.030 --> 11:59.770] [EVILCORLEY]: And you guys went down to the Senate and you basically schooled them on security.
[12:00.250 --> 12:02.230] [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't know.
[12:02.350 --> 12:04.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Do you think they listened back then?
[12:05.890 --> 12:06.810] [SPACEROGUE]: Yes and no.
[12:07.210 --> 12:09.390] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, it's taken a long time.
[12:09.610 --> 12:11.030] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, here we are 25 years later.
[12:11.170 --> 12:15.410] [SPACEROGUE]: The 25th anniversary comes up this May and it's been 25 years.
[12:15.570 --> 12:17.710] [SPACEROGUE]: And in some ways, not much has changed.
[12:18.110 --> 12:20.030] [SPACEROGUE]: In some ways, a lot has changed.
[12:20.030 --> 12:27.670] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, I look at some of the initiatives taking place in government now and I'm cautiously optimistic.
[12:28.550 --> 12:43.230] [SPACEROGUE]: CISA, the Computer Information Security, Cyber Information Security Security Agency, I think is the appropriate title, is doing great, great things under Jen Easterly and is sort of making things be very aware, getting the word out there.
[12:43.670 --> 12:49.250] [SPACEROGUE]: Biden has a new cyber policy out, which seems to be making some waves as well.
[12:49.830 --> 12:53.750] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, I think it's still early to say whether or not these initiatives are going to stick.
[12:53.930 --> 13:00.010] [SPACEROGUE]: We've seen a lot of different initiatives over the years, but hopefully, these current ones are actually going to make some difference.
[13:00.170 --> 13:05.670] [SPACEROGUE]: And whether or not L0pht had some influence on those current activities or not, you know, I'd like to think we did.
[13:06.270 --> 13:08.510] [SPACEROGUE]: But either way, it's good to see the progress.
[13:19.250 --> 13:20.570] [EVILCORLEY]: You had a full room.
[13:20.650 --> 13:24.710] [EVILCORLEY]: I had two senators and neither one of them really knew much about what they were talking about.
[13:25.190 --> 13:27.710] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, there's actually a video of your testimony out there.
[13:27.950 --> 13:28.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Is there?
[13:29.350 --> 13:30.610] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, I remember seeing it.
[13:30.890 --> 13:38.350] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know where the link is now, but I did mention your testimony in the book because I think a lot of people think that L0pht was first and we were not.
[13:38.550 --> 13:44.070] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, you predated us and then Susan Thunder actually predated you as having testified at Congress.
[13:44.070 --> 13:48.590] [SPACEROGUE]: But the scene for us was we weren't really sure what to expect.
[13:49.490 --> 13:58.090] [SPACEROGUE]: We were aware of your previous testimony and that it wasn't probably the most positive experience and we were kind of concerned like what was going to happen when we got in the room.
[13:58.230 --> 14:02.530] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, once you're in the room, cameras are there, people are there, like they can ask you whatever you want.
[14:02.590 --> 14:08.010] [SPACEROGUE]: So, we didn't really advertise that we were, hey, we're going to Congress, you know, tune in on C-SPAN.
[14:08.550 --> 14:12.790] [SPACEROGUE]: We figured if it goes badly, we just won't tell anybody and we'll pretend it didn't happen.
[14:13.590 --> 14:17.290] [SPACEROGUE]: But thankfully, it was a more positive experience for us.
[14:17.910 --> 14:33.390] [SPACEROGUE]: So, we went down, we testified under our handles, which was a big thing for us because we wanted to make sure that we were trying to protect ourselves from lawsuits by using our handles and somehow we convinced the Senate and Congress that that was okay.
[14:33.630 --> 14:38.190] [EVILCORLEY]: That was the only time they allowed that for people that weren't in witness relocation.
[14:38.630 --> 14:39.870] [SPACEROGUE]: So, that's what we were told.
[14:39.870 --> 14:46.230] [SPACEROGUE]: In fact, you know, one of the ways that we knew that it was serious was that we had to get reimbursed for our travel expenses in cash.
[14:46.670 --> 15:05.530] [SPACEROGUE]: And to do that, we had to go down in the basement of the Capitol and talk to like this little guy in a closet who had all the petty cash for Congress and give them additional fake names because you can't, you know, put Space Rogue in the ledger as to who you paid off for his $23 in gas money or whatever it was.
[15:05.930 --> 15:09.930] [SPACEROGUE]: So, we had additional fake names to sign the ledger with so we could actually get our cash.
[15:10.070 --> 15:10.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
[15:11.070 --> 15:13.570] [EVILCORLEY]: You mean additional you made up names on the spot?
[15:14.330 --> 15:14.450] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[15:14.710 --> 15:16.090] [SPACEROGUE]: And there was additional fake names.
[15:16.190 --> 15:18.430] [EVILCORLEY]: They told you to do this or did they not know you were doing that?
[15:18.530 --> 15:20.110] [SPACEROGUE]: No, they knew we were doing it ahead of time.
[15:20.190 --> 15:21.490] [SPACEROGUE]: They assigned us the names to use.
[15:21.590 --> 15:22.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Do you remember the names?
[15:23.590 --> 15:30.370] [SPACEROGUE]: They all started with the same first and last, the same letter with the first and last name and they were baseball related.
[15:30.850 --> 15:32.550] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't remember exactly what they were.
[15:33.150 --> 15:46.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Kingpin knows, or used to know, but it was interesting so we'd go down we'd give our fake name we'd give them our receipts he'd total them up put a ledger in the book entry in the book say sign here we'd sign the fake name he'd give us the cash.
[15:47.310 --> 15:48.630] [SPACEROGUE]: So that was that was interesting.
[15:48.810 --> 16:00.250] [SPACEROGUE]: That's kind of how we knew like okay they were really serious about this whole handle thing and we appreciated that because like I said we were trying to protect ourselves from lawsuits from companies trying to sue us for releasing information about their security vulnerabilities.
[16:00.630 --> 16:02.910] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I want to hear the story of that guy in the basement.
[16:02.910 --> 16:04.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Somebody has to tell his story.
[16:05.590 --> 16:06.590] [EVILCORLEY]: That is incredible.
[16:07.070 --> 16:11.610] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, so the testimony itself was that intense?
[16:11.610 --> 16:12.550] [EVILCORLEY]: I think it went on for what?
[16:12.550 --> 16:13.490] [EVILCORLEY]: About an hour or so?
[16:13.910 --> 16:16.310] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, it was a little over an hour a little under an hour.
[16:16.550 --> 16:21.890] [SPACEROGUE]: It was intense and very stressful at least for me.
[16:22.590 --> 16:31.730] [SPACEROGUE]: We got together ahead of time and we had a written testimony that's published in the congressional record and then we had a verbal testimony as well.
[16:31.730 --> 16:51.910] [SPACEROGUE]: We wrote out the written testimony we wrote out the introductions like the written testimony was like a week before the introductions we did the night before in the hotel room so we each had like a paragraph that we said as our introduction and then we took questions from the senators but it was really like for the first half an hour I'm just sitting there like I don't know what to say And if you look, there's a famous picture of us testifying.
[16:54.750 --> 16:56.710] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, I'm looking down at the table in the picture.
[16:57.050 --> 17:00.690] [SPACEROGUE]: Because I can't even bring myself to look up in the room.
[17:00.850 --> 17:02.970] [SPACEROGUE]: Because it's a very stately room.
[17:02.970 --> 17:05.930] [SPACEROGUE]: The senators are up on a raised bench in front of you.
[17:06.130 --> 17:08.350] [SPACEROGUE]: There's oak or cherry paneling everywhere.
[17:09.030 --> 17:11.810] [SPACEROGUE]: Very, very intimidating to sit there.
[17:11.910 --> 17:17.130] [SPACEROGUE]: And it wasn't until like the second half of the testimony where I start to like, oh, I should probably say something.
[17:17.270 --> 17:19.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And I start to try to answer some of the questions.
[17:19.250 --> 17:23.590] [SPACEROGUE]: So, if you watch the testimony, like, I don't say much for the first half.
[17:23.590 --> 17:26.610] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's not until the second half where I'm able to get in a few answers.
[17:26.750 --> 17:28.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, something was said.
[17:28.430 --> 17:29.870] [EVILCORLEY]: And we were up in New York.
[17:30.030 --> 17:30.750] [EVILCORLEY]: We were doing radio.
[17:30.750 --> 17:34.730] [EVILCORLEY]: I remember, I think we did a show the day you guys testified.
[17:35.090 --> 17:39.550] [EVILCORLEY]: And we only heard rumors of that famous quote.
[17:39.910 --> 17:43.730] [EVILCORLEY]: The week after, it certainly hit all the newspapers.
[17:43.730 --> 17:44.650] [EVILCORLEY]: We have a clip.
[17:44.650 --> 17:49.110] [EVILCORLEY]: We actually have a clip from our show from May of 1998.
[17:49.110 --> 17:53.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Let's just listen to the initial reaction that we had.
[17:55.150 --> 17:55.750] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[17:55.850 --> 18:01.410] [SPEAKER_03]: Speaking of government, boy, we talked about the L0pht thing for just a couple of minutes last week.
[18:02.130 --> 18:06.410] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that quote that everybody's been, like, quoting?
[18:06.650 --> 18:10.990] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's really a quote because I haven't seen it in context yet.
[18:11.350 --> 18:18.350] [SPEAKER_03]: We haven't been successful getting a hold of those people because I imagine they're in demand after things like that got out.
[18:18.350 --> 18:27.670] [SPEAKER_03]: But basically, the idea was that hackers could take down the entire Internet in 30 minutes or less.
[18:28.510 --> 18:29.150] [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[18:29.210 --> 18:34.810] [SPEAKER_03]: A band of seven hackers from Boston told the Senate committee last Tuesday they could bring down the foundations of the Internet in 30 minutes.
[18:35.950 --> 18:41.570] [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the people is Mudge, who was on our radio show a few months ago, actually.
[18:42.490 --> 18:45.050] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, it's an interesting thing.
[18:45.170 --> 18:46.950] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you're there in front of Congress.
[18:47.790 --> 18:49.290] [SPEAKER_03]: They can be kind of intimidating.
[18:49.990 --> 18:55.170] [SPEAKER_03]: And I guess, you know, things come out that maybe you don't want them to be interpreted in just that way.
[18:55.930 --> 18:59.330] [SPEAKER_03]: I can tell you right now, hackers are not going to take down the Internet.
[18:59.610 --> 19:08.490] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I've been getting calls from reporters now for the past couple of days ever since I got back, wanting responses to this threat that the L0pht poses to the Internet.
[19:08.490 --> 19:19.990] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, you know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that saying I can take down the Internet in 30 minutes is going to be perceived as a threat by some dim-minded media people.
[19:21.590 --> 19:46.290] [SPEAKER_03]: But there are certainly security problems that could result in somebody with the proper access and access to a lot of different things and knowledge to achieve a desired effect and the desire to do something bad.
[19:46.490 --> 19:47.610] [SPEAKER_03]: All that wrapped together.
[19:48.190 --> 19:50.610] [SPEAKER_03]: And, yeah, somebody could cause significant mayhem.
[19:51.210 --> 19:53.170] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's never really been an issue.
[19:59.510 --> 20:03.370] [SPEAKER_03]: The thing is, is it a threat from hackers?
[20:03.530 --> 20:04.210] [SPEAKER_03]: The answer is no.
[20:04.890 --> 20:07.950] [SPEAKER_03]: Hackers are not going to take down the Internet in 30 minutes.
[20:10.030 --> 20:12.230] [SPEAKER_03]: So, no need to panic.
[20:12.490 --> 20:21.530] [SPEAKER_03]: But, definite need to increase security because there are all kinds of technical problems, all kinds of security issues that are definitely relevant.
[20:21.530 --> 20:25.490] [SPEAKER_03]: And things as stupid as, you know, satellites that don't have any backup.
[20:25.790 --> 20:28.330] [SPEAKER_03]: Same mentality goes into some aspects of the Internet.
[20:28.730 --> 20:40.350] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what you have to take into consideration is that a failure in one way can lead to a failure somewhere else and it just keeps multiplying until you have a complete breakdown of communication.
[20:41.930 --> 20:43.350] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what you have to watch out for.
[20:44.010 --> 20:48.230] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's, I think, what the people at the L0pht were trying to warn Congress about.
[20:48.710 --> 20:50.430] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, you know, I've been there.
[20:50.430 --> 20:51.270] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been in front of Congress.
[20:51.430 --> 20:57.270] [SPEAKER_03]: I know that you say certain things and it doesn't exactly get interpreted the way you want it to be interpreted.
[20:57.710 --> 21:00.710] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think we know what the interpretation was meant to be.
[21:01.370 --> 21:05.150] [SPEAKER_03]: The boneheads in the media, of course, will get it wrong every time.
[21:06.490 --> 21:06.990] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[21:07.010 --> 21:14.750] [EVILCORLEY]: That's an excerpt from 1998 reacting to the testimony of the L0pht where, in fact, you guys did sort of say something like that.
[21:15.190 --> 21:16.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Mudge, I believe, was the one who said that.
[21:17.070 --> 21:19.690] [EVILCORLEY]: We have actually the exact excerpt we'll play in a moment.
[21:20.430 --> 21:30.270] [EVILCORLEY]: But was that a correct interpretation that it wasn't intended to cause panic or to be interpreted as a threat from hackers?
[21:31.070 --> 21:32.050] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, absolutely not.
[21:32.250 --> 21:32.370] [SPACEROGUE]: No.
[21:33.290 --> 21:36.330] [SPACEROGUE]: And media did take it that way.
[21:36.470 --> 21:38.490] [SPACEROGUE]: And we have a collection of headlines.
[21:38.750 --> 21:44.050] [SPACEROGUE]: I think Kingpin has a collection of headlines of, you know, hackers threaten Internet, you know, mayhem, etc.
[21:45.290 --> 21:53.670] [SPACEROGUE]: But the issue specifically had already been disclosed and had already been patched when it was announced during that testimony.
[21:53.870 --> 21:58.150] [SPACEROGUE]: And basically, it was an issue with BGP where it would cause a cascading failure of routers.
[21:58.590 --> 22:03.070] [SPACEROGUE]: And the only way to fix it would be to turn everything off and turn it back on again, like the entire Internet.
[22:03.270 --> 22:03.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[22:03.350 --> 22:05.090] [SPACEROGUE]: But it had already been disclosed.
[22:05.310 --> 22:06.750] [SPACEROGUE]: A patch had already been issued.
[22:06.950 --> 22:10.650] [SPACEROGUE]: It wasn't really a major concern at the time we announced it.
[22:11.170 --> 22:13.330] [SPACEROGUE]: But it was a possibility.
[22:13.570 --> 22:16.090] [EVILCORLEY]: I think we're going to play this excerpt from Mudge.
[22:16.210 --> 22:24.910] [EVILCORLEY]: I think he was maybe theorizing about other potential ways where this could actually still be a threat if certain things weren't taken seriously.
[22:25.170 --> 22:27.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's something I would even say to this day.
[22:27.310 --> 22:33.750] [EVILCORLEY]: If security is not taken seriously, then there will definitely be catastrophic occurrences.
[22:33.890 --> 22:34.510] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's not a threat.
[22:34.510 --> 22:35.110] [EVILCORLEY]: That's a fact.
[22:35.350 --> 22:37.890] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to absolutely have decent security.
[22:37.890 --> 22:42.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And back then, it really was in its early days.
[22:42.970 --> 22:44.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Let's listen to the actual quote from Mudge.
[22:45.410 --> 22:57.410] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm informed that you think that within 30 minutes, the seven of you could make the Internet unusable for the entire nation.
[22:57.870 --> 22:58.710] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that correct?
[22:58.910 --> 22:59.750] [SPEAKER_09]: That's correct, actually.
[22:59.890 --> 23:01.710] [SPEAKER_09]: One of us with just a few packets.
[23:05.490 --> 23:07.350] [SPEAKER_09]: We've told a few agencies about this.
[23:07.630 --> 23:13.830] [SPEAKER_09]: It's kind of funny because we think that this is something that the various government agencies should be actively going after.
[23:13.830 --> 23:21.750] [SPEAKER_09]: We know the Department of Defense just did a very large investigation into what's known as denial-of-service attacks against the infrastructure.
[23:22.330 --> 23:29.470] [SPEAKER_09]: In our various day jobs, we contributed a large portion of the information to that actual investigation.
[23:30.140 --> 23:37.950] [SPEAKER_09]: Much to our chagrin, the learnings from it were instantly classified, which we were giving them largely public information.
[23:39.170 --> 23:59.310] [SPEAKER_09]: It is very trivial with the old protocols to segregate and separate the different major long-haul providers, which would then be the national access points, the metropolitan area ether sections, AT&T can't talk to MCI, can't talk to PSINET, can't talk to Alternet, et cetera, et cetera, and keep it down that way as long as we really wanted to.
[24:02.770 --> 24:07.270] [SPEAKER_09]: It would definitely take a few days for people to figure out what was going on.
[24:08.210 --> 24:11.790] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's from the congressional testimony of the law back in 1998.
[24:11.790 --> 24:13.090] [EVILCORLEY]: I think that's pretty clear.
[24:13.230 --> 24:15.990] [EVILCORLEY]: That's pretty succinct as to what exactly was meant there.
[24:16.090 --> 24:23.730] [EVILCORLEY]: And if the newspapers and the politicians have been a little less hysterical, I think they would have learned a lot more quickly how to deal with the situation.
[24:24.630 --> 24:25.790] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, no, I agree.
[24:26.090 --> 24:31.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And as you mentioned, I mean, we're still dealing with an Internet and a network that is very fragile.
[24:31.610 --> 24:48.150] [SPACEROGUE]: We still have issues with BGP today where routing issues, you know, take down large sections of the Internet for short periods of time, thankfully, or major providers that just basically go offline because somebody pushed a button that was sent to configuration that was wrong.
[24:48.370 --> 24:52.010] [SPACEROGUE]: So yeah, the whole Internet is still built on bubble gum and bailing twine.
[24:53.730 --> 24:54.750] [EVILCORLEY]: I think you're right.
[24:54.870 --> 24:55.670] [EVILCORLEY]: I think you're right about that.
[24:56.190 --> 24:58.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we've been focusing on this one instance.
[24:58.950 --> 25:01.370] [EVILCORLEY]: It's only one day in the world of the L0pht.
[25:02.150 --> 25:05.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Tell us, how did the L0pht begin in the first place?
[25:06.950 --> 25:19.290] [SPACEROGUE]: So the L0pht arose out of a group of hackers in Boston who basically came together to store computer equipment in an old warehouse artist loft space in South Boston.
[25:19.790 --> 25:25.930] [SPACEROGUE]: The building still exists, but now it is high-priced condos.
[25:26.190 --> 25:30.050] [SPACEROGUE]: It's no longer the derelict factory warehouse building that it was.
[25:30.330 --> 25:39.130] [SPACEROGUE]: But we basically just stored our equipment there and then eventually we started plugging it in and then we bought a modem and got online and built the website and the rest is history.
[25:39.450 --> 25:45.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, is there truth to the rumor that I've heard that somehow this is related to a hat business?
[25:45.850 --> 25:46.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Yes.
[25:47.230 --> 26:00.710] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, so Count Zero and Brian Oblivion's wives were basically were going to design hats like the kind you wear on your head and they had half of this space that they...
[26:00.710 --> 26:04.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Because it was a pretty decent-sized space and so Brian and Count Zero had the other half.
[26:05.050 --> 26:16.090] [SPACEROGUE]: But even that was too much for Brian and Count Zero so they invited White Knight, Golgo 13, a couple other folks to share this space with them while the wives did the hat business on the other side.
[26:16.290 --> 26:21.810] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, the hat business did not take off and failed within a couple of months and so they still had...
[26:21.810 --> 26:32.630] [SPACEROGUE]: Now they had all this more space and that's when they invited myself and Kingpin and Weld Pond in to help share the rent basically and store some equipment in this space.
[26:33.630 --> 26:34.030] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[26:34.170 --> 26:37.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, I was reading some of the accounts and I didn't realize you guys...
[26:37.990 --> 26:44.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Some of you guys met at a 2600 meeting and then went to the L0pht afterwards for maybe the first time to see it.
[26:45.370 --> 26:50.450] [SPACEROGUE]: So yeah, 2600 was one of the communal gathering places.
[26:50.610 --> 26:56.170] [SPACEROGUE]: I think in Boston we had a bulletin board called The Works and The Works had gatherings infrequently.
[26:56.170 --> 26:57.090] [SPACEROGUE]: They weren't scheduled.
[26:57.290 --> 26:58.310] [SPACEROGUE]: They'd happen every now and then.
[26:58.770 --> 27:05.410] [SPACEROGUE]: But then 2600 came along and put a little bit of structure into it and so we'd have 2600 meetings in Harvard Square every month.
[27:05.650 --> 27:07.970] [SPACEROGUE]: First Friday of the month we'd have Au Bon Pain.
[27:07.970 --> 27:29.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I'd go get my large iced coffee Americano chocolate frothy drink thing which I don't drink anymore but I'd sit outside with the old man in the chess tables and all the hackers would show up and we'd kind of sit there and do a 2600 meeting and then the weather would get cold and we'd go to the pizza shop around the corner until they realized, realized that we weren't buying any pizza.
[27:30.070 --> 27:30.890] [SPACEROGUE]: They kicked us out.
[27:31.530 --> 27:36.290] [SPACEROGUE]: And then we ended up at the Prudential Center in Boston, which I think is where the meetings still are.
[27:36.370 --> 27:37.270] [SPACEROGUE]: I'd have to check the listing.
[27:37.550 --> 27:40.490] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, the webpage, 2600.com/meetings.
[27:40.650 --> 27:41.650] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know where they are myself.
[27:41.770 --> 27:44.870] [EVILCORLEY]: I do know they exist in Boston, but I'm not sure where exactly they are.
[27:45.530 --> 27:46.670] [SPACEROGUE]: I think they're at the Prudential Center.
[27:46.670 --> 27:48.390] [SPACEROGUE]: They may have gone back to Harvard Square.
[27:48.390 --> 27:49.230] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm not sure either.
[27:49.370 --> 27:50.230] [SPACEROGUE]: But yeah, check the website.
[27:50.850 --> 27:52.270] [SPACEROGUE]: But that was the ineptest.
[27:52.510 --> 27:53.990] [SPACEROGUE]: That's pretty much where we all met.
[27:54.690 --> 27:58.090] [SPACEROGUE]: Brian Oblivion ran a bulletin board called Black Crawling Systems.
[27:58.390 --> 28:02.150] [SPACEROGUE]: And he would only let people on the board who he had actually met in person.
[28:02.850 --> 28:05.310] [SPACEROGUE]: So there wasn't a lot of people on the board.
[28:06.030 --> 28:12.330] [SPACEROGUE]: But that's also where the L0pht came from, from membership from that board, which is from people he met at 2600 meetings.
[28:12.910 --> 28:15.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Gila, the expression on your face tells me that you just found out where the meetings are.
[28:16.830 --> 28:18.050] [GILADRAZEN]: I did, actually.
[28:18.650 --> 28:22.290] [GILADRAZEN]: Boston, The Garage at Harvard Square in the food court area.
[28:22.290 --> 28:22.350] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[28:22.630 --> 28:25.470] [SPACEROGUE]: That's where we got kicked out of 25 years ago.
[28:25.610 --> 28:29.770] [EVILCORLEY]: And now the hackers are back for round two.
[28:30.150 --> 28:30.690] [KYLEDROSDK]: Indelible.
[28:30.950 --> 28:34.670] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, what's amazing about that is I realized you guys were just kids back then.
[28:35.010 --> 28:39.250] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, looked upon with suspicion by the mainstream.
[28:39.590 --> 28:41.190] [EVILCORLEY]: But look what you went on to do.
[28:41.470 --> 28:57.390] [EVILCORLEY]: I just hope people are listening to this that are kids now that are going to meetings, that are, you know, just trying to fit in or figure out how technology works or how to manipulate things and realizing that, yeah, you can become amazing, too.
[28:57.650 --> 29:03.670] [EVILCORLEY]: You can be writing books in a couple of decades and maybe even testifying in front of Congress in a good way.
[29:04.070 --> 29:04.410] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[29:04.510 --> 29:07.630] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, Kingpin was still in high school at the time when he joined the L0pht.
[29:07.630 --> 29:09.490] [SPACEROGUE]: I think I was in my early 30s.
[29:09.970 --> 29:12.150] [SPACEROGUE]: So we had a wide range of ages.
[29:12.730 --> 29:18.670] [SPACEROGUE]: So, yeah, there isn't any one particular age that's good or bad that would, like, oh, I'm too old, I'm too young, whatever.
[29:19.250 --> 29:21.850] [SPACEROGUE]: There's definitely any time you can jump in and get started.
[29:22.450 --> 29:23.490] [EVILCORLEY]: You're in your 30s then?
[29:23.490 --> 29:24.690] [EVILCORLEY]: You look like you're in your 30s now.
[29:25.690 --> 29:26.050] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[29:26.310 --> 29:27.590] [SPACEROGUE]: I age slowly, I guess.
[29:27.670 --> 29:28.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Some kind of time traveler.
[29:28.810 --> 29:28.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[29:29.170 --> 29:30.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, that's pretty amazing.
[29:31.390 --> 29:33.030] [EVILCORLEY]: So tell us about the book.
[29:33.170 --> 29:36.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Where did the idea for the book come from and what did you hope to capture?
[29:37.730 --> 29:40.870] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, I've been thinking about writing the book for a while.
[29:41.650 --> 29:45.630] [SPACEROGUE]: The story of the L0pht has kind of reached mythological status, I think.
[29:45.850 --> 29:48.470] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's sort of been retold and retold.
[29:48.570 --> 29:51.950] [SPACEROGUE]: And I've heard different versions of some of the stories.
[29:52.090 --> 29:53.670] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm like, that's not what I remember.
[29:54.310 --> 29:57.090] [SPACEROGUE]: Not to say that somebody else's version isn't accurate either.
[29:57.250 --> 30:00.150] [SPACEROGUE]: But I was like, I was there and I remember things a little bit differently.
[30:00.390 --> 30:04.270] [SPACEROGUE]: So I felt it was important to recur my version and write the story.
[30:04.390 --> 30:06.630] [SPACEROGUE]: But I had a problem, like, writing.
[30:06.630 --> 30:08.010] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, I'm not a writer.
[30:08.230 --> 30:11.910] [SPACEROGUE]: And so getting the stuff down was difficult.
[30:11.910 --> 30:15.230] [SPACEROGUE]: And I would start and I would write a page and I'd be like, oh, I can't do this.
[30:15.370 --> 30:17.910] [SPACEROGUE]: And I would write another page and I'd be like, oh, this is terrible.
[30:18.250 --> 30:22.010] [SPACEROGUE]: And then, I don't know, somehow at some point something clicked and I ended up doing an outline.
[30:22.150 --> 30:23.590] [SPACEROGUE]: And that's what did it for me.
[30:23.670 --> 30:24.250] [SPACEROGUE]: I did an outline.
[30:24.350 --> 30:25.330] [SPACEROGUE]: I was like, I want to do this story.
[30:25.430 --> 30:26.430] [SPACEROGUE]: I want to do that story.
[30:26.530 --> 30:27.510] [SPACEROGUE]: I'll put this story in.
[30:27.570 --> 30:28.610] [SPACEROGUE]: And I just listed the stories.
[30:28.770 --> 30:29.910] [SPACEROGUE]: And then I organized the stories.
[30:30.090 --> 30:31.650] [SPACEROGUE]: And then I filled in all the blanks.
[30:31.650 --> 30:33.690] [SPACEROGUE]: And when I was done, I was like, I got a book.
[30:34.410 --> 30:50.390] [SPACEROGUE]: And so I think I really wanted to just capture, you know, some of the big, important aspects of what L0pht did and what L0pht was, and some of the impact that we had, not just directly, but indirectly in the people that we influenced over the years.
[30:51.870 --> 30:52.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[30:52.350 --> 30:53.850] [EVILCORLEY]: That's pretty incredible.
[30:54.030 --> 30:59.810] [EVILCORLEY]: And you were able to find interest in publishing the book without too much of a challenge?
[30:59.810 --> 31:01.270] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, yes and no.
[31:01.350 --> 31:05.570] [SPACEROGUE]: As I'm sure you know, publishing is a whole mess.
[31:05.850 --> 31:06.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, we are.
[31:07.910 --> 31:13.850] [SPACEROGUE]: So I sent out... So basically, if you write a book, or before you write a book, traditional publishing says you need an agent.
[31:13.970 --> 31:19.090] [SPACEROGUE]: To get an agent, you send out query letters, which is basically nowadays emails, and you format an email, you mail it off.
[31:19.250 --> 31:21.130] [SPACEROGUE]: And if you're lucky, you'll hear something back.
[31:21.430 --> 31:22.650] [SPACEROGUE]: Generally, you hear nothing.
[31:22.830 --> 31:24.430] [SPACEROGUE]: And that's normal for this industry.
[31:24.590 --> 31:27.230] [SPACEROGUE]: Like it just goes into a black hole, and you don't hear nothing back.
[31:27.230 --> 31:31.590] [SPACEROGUE]: I sent out about maybe 200, 250 query letters to different agents.
[31:32.170 --> 31:34.950] [SPACEROGUE]: I probably heard back from maybe 75 of them.
[31:35.230 --> 31:37.490] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, the rest of them are just lost and gone forever.
[31:37.970 --> 31:44.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Of those 75, I had like four, I think, who were very interested in the story, wanted to do something with the idea.
[31:45.010 --> 31:46.250] [SPACEROGUE]: They're like, oh, this is really important.
[31:46.270 --> 31:47.010] [SPACEROGUE]: I want to publish this.
[31:47.070 --> 31:50.550] [SPACEROGUE]: But I want you to change all this stuff and do it different.
[31:50.550 --> 31:52.470] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, well, I've written a book.
[31:52.610 --> 31:53.290] [SPACEROGUE]: It's a memoir.
[31:53.510 --> 31:56.270] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't want to go and do a total nonfiction treatment.
[31:57.130 --> 31:58.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, this is the book I wrote.
[31:58.970 --> 32:00.070] [SPACEROGUE]: This is the book I want to publish.
[32:00.190 --> 32:04.210] [SPACEROGUE]: And after like the fourth agent telling me that, I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to do it myself.
[32:04.810 --> 32:10.570] [SPACEROGUE]: But this took like two years to go through and, you know, go through all these agents and these query letters and whatnot.
[32:10.570 --> 32:13.350] [SPACEROGUE]: And people think, oh, you self-publish it.
[32:13.430 --> 32:13.770] [SPACEROGUE]: It's real easy.
[32:13.850 --> 32:14.830] [SPACEROGUE]: You just upload it, click a button.
[32:15.010 --> 32:19.290] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, it's great if you just want to do Amazon and have a kind of a, you know, crappy book.
[32:19.910 --> 32:30.930] [SPACEROGUE]: So I ended up having to hire editors and proofreaders and a book designer and get the cover done and all that sort of thing just took months and months and months as well to do.
[32:31.270 --> 32:34.530] [SPACEROGUE]: And then I was able to upload it and push a button for Amazon.
[32:34.530 --> 32:42.490] [SPACEROGUE]: But I also wanted a hardcover because, you know, it's not really a book to me unless you have a hardcover, which meant a whole other website called IngramSpark, which you have to upload.
[32:42.490 --> 32:45.550] [SPACEROGUE]: And then you have to have an e-book on top of that because everybody buys e-books.
[32:45.770 --> 32:49.490] [SPACEROGUE]: So, yeah, there's a lot involved in the actual publishing of the book yourself.
[32:49.870 --> 32:51.710] [EVILCORLEY]: What kinds of things do they want you to change?
[32:53.050 --> 32:56.430] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, mostly they, since it's a memoir, people didn't want it as a memoir.
[32:56.590 --> 32:58.050] [SPACEROGUE]: The idea was that memoirs don't sell.
[32:58.070 --> 33:08.310] [SPACEROGUE]: So they wanted a full, regular, nonfiction, interview, footnote treatment, very dry, very boring, very matter-of-fact type book.
[33:08.530 --> 33:09.070] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm like...
[33:09.070 --> 33:09.450] [EVILCORLEY]: That sells.
[33:10.190 --> 33:10.930] [EVILCORLEY]: That's what sells.
[33:11.030 --> 33:12.230] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, that's not going to sell.
[33:12.490 --> 33:14.510] [KYLEDROSDK]: Like a historian would make?
[33:14.850 --> 33:15.310] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, exactly.
[33:15.750 --> 33:16.870] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, a more historical type.
[33:17.610 --> 33:18.990] [KYLEDROSDK]: Academic and, oh, wow.
[33:19.190 --> 33:19.410] [KYLEDROSDK]: Wow.
[33:19.670 --> 33:27.750] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, and I was, I just, I was like, well, you know, I know you're the expert and you probably know the market better than I do, but one, I ain't got time to write that.
[33:27.950 --> 33:29.410] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, that's a lot of work.
[33:30.210 --> 33:36.010] [SPACEROGUE]: And, like, I'd have to interview at least seven people, not to mention, you know, everybody else.
[33:36.430 --> 33:39.610] [SPACEROGUE]: And I was like, the book is, you know, 80% done.
[33:39.610 --> 33:41.670] [SPACEROGUE]: I just needed some help with the editing and stuff.
[33:41.770 --> 33:43.930] [SPACEROGUE]: And like, oh, no, no, we got to change all this and do this and do that.
[33:44.070 --> 33:45.510] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm like, yeah, no, thanks.
[33:45.850 --> 33:46.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I'll just do it myself.
[33:46.810 --> 33:47.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Good for you.
[33:47.250 --> 33:47.650] [EVILCORLEY]: And so I did.
[33:47.750 --> 33:47.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[33:48.170 --> 33:49.130] [EVILCORLEY]: That is awesome.
[33:49.330 --> 33:52.090] [EVILCORLEY]: We're speaking with Cris Thomas, known as Space Rogue.
[33:52.210 --> 33:57.330] [EVILCORLEY]: The book is called Space Rogue: How the Hackers Known as L0pht Changed the World.
[33:58.270 --> 33:58.910] [EVILCORLEY]: And guess what?
[33:58.910 --> 34:07.770] [EVILCORLEY]: For you listeners, we're offering a special deal for the first two people who call in or connect and become WBAI buddies.
[34:08.490 --> 34:12.910] [EVILCORLEY]: You will get an autographed copy of this book from Space Rogue himself.
[34:14.970 --> 34:19.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Rob, Gila, would you tell us how people can connect and become WBAI buddies?
[34:20.110 --> 34:25.670] [EVILCORLEY]: And you have to email us before eight o'clock tonight to tell us that you did that.
[34:25.830 --> 34:27.730] [EVILCORLEY]: If you after eight o'clock, it's not going to count.
[34:27.910 --> 34:28.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Not for this.
[34:28.530 --> 34:30.130] [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, it'll count for the radio station.
[34:30.390 --> 34:33.450] [EVILCORLEY]: But to get these two books, you got to do that now.
[34:34.730 --> 34:39.970] [ROBVINCENT]: Well, certainly how you do that is you go to give2wbai.org.
[34:40.290 --> 34:43.890] [ROBVINCENT]: That's give-the numeral two-wbai.org.
[34:44.290 --> 34:49.490] [ROBVINCENT]: And there is the there are there are all sorts of ways you can support the station on there.
[34:49.870 --> 34:52.770] [ROBVINCENT]: One of those ways is by coming becoming a WBAI buddy.
[34:53.110 --> 34:57.910] [ROBVINCENT]: And that is when you sign up to make a donation on a regular basis.
[34:58.190 --> 35:01.210] [ROBVINCENT]: Month-to-month, you become a sort of a continuing donor.
[35:01.630 --> 35:07.730] [ROBVINCENT]: You become something that's amazing in the nonprofit sector, which is a dependable source of income.
[35:08.090 --> 35:12.930] [ROBVINCENT]: And you become one of the things that is really vital in keeping the station going.
[35:13.590 --> 35:20.510] [ROBVINCENT]: WBAI has been going for 63 years now, just doing this, asking people to support directly.
[35:20.510 --> 35:25.750] [ROBVINCENT]: Frankly, we are not selling ads, we are not selling data, we are not selling your ears to anyone.
[35:26.110 --> 35:29.290] [ROBVINCENT]: Because frankly, we enjoy your ears, and we want to keep them all to ourselves.
[35:29.510 --> 35:31.790] [ROBVINCENT]: And the way we do that is by getting your support.
[35:31.990 --> 35:41.510] [ROBVINCENT]: So if you go to give2wbai.org, and click the link that says click here to become a buddy, you will it will take you through the steps.
[35:41.710 --> 35:44.990] [EVILCORLEY]: And after you've done that, you won't see any mention of the book there.
[35:45.190 --> 35:46.110] [EVILCORLEY]: So don't look for that.
[35:46.110 --> 35:48.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And you can pledge any amount.
[35:48.490 --> 35:53.910] [EVILCORLEY]: We're just asking the first two people to contact us, oth@2600.com is our email address.
[35:54.130 --> 35:57.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Let us know you did that, and you'll be the first two people that get the books.
[35:58.590 --> 36:05.510] [GILADRAZEN]: Send us a screenshot of your completed WBAI Buddy transaction, or send us an email confirmation that you get.
[36:05.630 --> 36:09.230] [GILADRAZEN]: You have 25 minutes to get in on this.
[36:09.570 --> 36:17.370] [GILADRAZEN]: Email us at oth@2600.com with confirmation that you have indeed become a WBAI Buddy in the name of Off The Hook.
[36:17.570 --> 36:21.810] [EVILCORLEY]: And if you can't figure out how to make a screenshot, email us and say you're working on it.
[36:22.010 --> 36:30.590] [EVILCORLEY]: As long as we get that email before 8 o'clock, then we'll count you as one of the two people that gets one of these special autographed books from Space Rogue himself.
[36:31.030 --> 36:34.950] [SPACEROGUE]: Don't forget your snail mail address so I know where to send the book.
[36:35.090 --> 36:35.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[36:35.430 --> 36:37.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we're going to make sure you get all that information.
[36:37.410 --> 36:39.130] [EVILCORLEY]: We'll do a lot of hand-holding.
[36:39.650 --> 36:41.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Again, that's any pledge.
[36:41.330 --> 36:42.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Become a WBAI Buddy.
[36:42.430 --> 36:46.890] [EVILCORLEY]: give2wbai.org and help support the radio station.
[36:46.890 --> 36:50.250] [EVILCORLEY]: If you're not one of the first two people, it's not the worst thing in the world.
[36:50.410 --> 36:56.830] [EVILCORLEY]: You can still get all kinds of other premiums from that website, regardless of whether you get the book or not.
[36:57.530 --> 37:02.590] [EVILCORLEY]: And remember, there's no mention of the book on the website, so please don't be confused when you don't see that.
[37:02.810 --> 37:10.170] [EVILCORLEY]: If you're one of the first two people to email us before 8 o'clock and say that you pledged in that way, you will be one of the two people who get the books.
[37:10.550 --> 37:11.090] [EVILCORLEY]: Simple as that.
[37:11.770 --> 37:11.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[37:11.990 --> 37:17.950] [GILADRAZEN]: And don't forget, if you're already a WBAI Buddy in the name of Off The Hook, we appreciate you very much.
[37:18.070 --> 37:20.290] [GILADRAZEN]: You're just not eligible for this particular promotion.
[37:20.490 --> 37:22.270] [GILADRAZEN]: But know that we love and appreciate you.
[37:22.490 --> 37:22.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, hang on.
[37:22.850 --> 37:23.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Hang on.
[37:23.390 --> 37:30.290] [EVILCORLEY]: They could go Space Rogue's route and make a fake name, all right, and just say that they're pledging under that name.
[37:30.770 --> 37:32.010] [GILADRAZEN]: You make a very valid point.
[37:32.190 --> 37:33.030] [EVILCORLEY]: A real credit card.
[37:34.130 --> 37:37.070] [ROBVINCENT]: Can one person be two buddies?
[37:37.370 --> 37:37.790] [ROBVINCENT]: I don't know.
[37:37.890 --> 37:38.630] [ROBVINCENT]: We can find out together.
[37:38.890 --> 37:42.270] [GILADRAZEN]: If you've got two credit cards that get charged monthly, 100%.
[37:42.270 --> 37:46.090] [GILADRAZEN]: But yes, just two new WBAI buddies.
[37:46.250 --> 37:48.070] [GILADRAZEN]: You have 23 minutes, kids.
[37:48.250 --> 37:48.730] [GILADRAZEN]: Hop on this.
[37:48.790 --> 37:50.070] [GILADRAZEN]: This is an amazing opportunity.
[37:50.830 --> 37:52.190] [KYLEDROSDK]: I had a question.
[37:52.470 --> 38:12.770] [KYLEDROSDK]: What were some of the fall-on impacts and things that happened as the L0pht had sort of this renown after the hearing, of course, and then progressed as a space and people went on to do different projects?
[38:12.770 --> 38:20.150] [KYLEDROSDK]: How was their impact felt and what kinds of reaction did the group continue to get and influence, might you say?
[38:21.250 --> 38:24.590] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm not sure that we really felt an impact right away.
[38:25.070 --> 38:26.710] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, yeah, everybody was surprised.
[38:26.850 --> 38:27.170] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, wow, L0pht was at Congress, you know, and then we got into some press
[38:30.010 --> 38:35.510] [SPACEROGUE]: But after a little while, it seemed that all sort of died down and went back to normal for us.
[38:35.650 --> 38:40.290] [SPACEROGUE]: We just kind of went back to hacking things and publishing things and went back to our day jobs.
[38:40.410 --> 38:46.130] [SPACEROGUE]: And we didn't like become overnight rich or anything and suddenly retire to Miami or something.
[38:47.450 --> 38:50.630] [SPACEROGUE]: So it didn't seem like that much changed immediately.
[38:51.250 --> 38:54.730] [SPACEROGUE]: And maybe it did, and it was just the subtle ways that we didn't realize.
[38:54.930 --> 38:59.110] [SPACEROGUE]: And I think... but now, looking back, you know, it was kind of a watershed moment.
[38:59.370 --> 39:04.590] [SPACEROGUE]: And it was a moment that is, you know, one of those time marks in history.
[39:04.750 --> 39:07.510] [SPACEROGUE]: It's like pre-L0pht testimony and then after L0pht testimony.
[39:08.650 --> 39:12.530] [SPACEROGUE]: And for L0pht, like, we just kind of kept on doing what our thing was.
[39:12.710 --> 39:18.350] [SPACEROGUE]: We kept hacking things and publishing things and trying to make a L0pht pay for itself, which was our initial goal.
[39:18.470 --> 39:21.370] [SPACEROGUE]: We just wanted it to earn enough money so we could quit our jobs.
[39:22.230 --> 39:30.670] [SPACEROGUE]: And, you know, and then the Y2K bug came along and the dot-com boom came along kind of at the same time.
[39:31.330 --> 39:35.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And we're looking around seeing all our friends getting rich off VC money.
[39:35.910 --> 39:39.070] [SPACEROGUE]: And we're like, we're still sitting here trying to barely pay the Internet bill.
[39:39.250 --> 39:42.610] [SPACEROGUE]: And we're like, you know, be nice to get a piece of that.
[39:42.750 --> 39:47.150] [SPACEROGUE]: So we started, went out and started looking for some venture capital and ended up forming AtStake.
[39:47.810 --> 39:48.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[39:48.330 --> 39:52.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Tell us about the AtStake days, because that pretty much was how L0pht finished, right?
[39:53.430 --> 39:54.950] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
[39:55.050 --> 39:56.130] [SPACEROGUE]: That was how L0pht finished.
[39:57.270 --> 40:08.510] [SPACEROGUE]: So there was a venture capital company that had a company, an Internet security company that they had already founded called AtStake, had, you know, had a handful of employees and was trying to make a go of it.
[40:08.670 --> 40:20.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And Mudge was shopping us around to some of the VC and this particular venture capital was like, you know, we already got a company, but maybe we can, we can buy you and merge you into together and make one big company.
[40:20.370 --> 40:22.150] [SPACEROGUE]: And we're like, you know, it sounds like a good idea.
[40:22.990 --> 40:37.990] [SPACEROGUE]: And, and we sort of knew that L0pht had reached a point where if we had kept on doing what we were doing, we would eventually get to our goal slowly, but it would have been slow and painful and a lot of road bumps along the road, along the way.
[40:38.670 --> 40:46.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And now here is sort of a instant, instant out, just add water and boom, we're where we want to be.
[40:46.450 --> 40:49.210] [SPACEROGUE]: We've got the credibility or we've got more people.
[40:49.990 --> 40:51.710] [SPACEROGUE]: We're able to hack on stuff all day.
[40:52.450 --> 40:54.410] [SPACEROGUE]: And so we're like, yeah, let's do this.
[40:54.470 --> 40:56.850] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's kind of what we wanted to do, what we were looking for anyway.
[40:58.030 --> 41:02.290] [SPACEROGUE]: But of course, you know, as what happens with a lot of good things, once you add money, it becomes a bad thing.
[41:03.290 --> 41:14.150] [SPACEROGUE]: So shortly after AtStake and L0pht kind of merged or AtStake bought L0pht, technically, the venture capital or like, you know, we kind of want our money back.
[41:14.330 --> 41:16.710] [SPACEROGUE]: That's kind of why we invested in you in the first place.
[41:16.850 --> 41:19.510] [SPACEROGUE]: And so they put some management in place.
[41:19.930 --> 41:25.250] [SPACEROGUE]: They brought in a CEO, they got a CFO and whatnot, and they started making some, some rather big changes.
[41:25.870 --> 41:28.470] [SPACEROGUE]: One of those changes was to get rid of me and the Hacker News Network.
[41:28.950 --> 41:31.070] [SPACEROGUE]: And so I had to exit stage left.
[41:31.310 --> 41:36.750] [SPACEROGUE]: And then a year, two years later, they sold what was left to Symantec.
[41:37.130 --> 41:39.750] [SPACEROGUE]: And then Symantec kind of shut everything down.
[41:39.910 --> 41:41.650] [SPACEROGUE]: And that was the end of everything.
[41:41.890 --> 41:43.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Why did they come after you right away?
[41:44.710 --> 41:46.690] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, I go into this in the book.
[41:46.870 --> 41:57.450] [SPACEROGUE]: I think that there was the CEO and the management that was brought in needed to make an example of the rank and file that nobody was protected.
[41:58.070 --> 42:01.470] [SPACEROGUE]: I just happened to be the one person that they really didn't know what to do with.
[42:01.810 --> 42:11.510] [SPACEROGUE]: The Hacker News Network, they weren't interested in at the time, which was a website that I had created that was getting some moderate traffic, but they didn't really know what to do with it as a consulting company.
[42:11.650 --> 42:12.890] [SPACEROGUE]: It didn't fit their business model.
[42:13.030 --> 42:13.910] [SPACEROGUE]: They weren't really interested.
[42:14.130 --> 42:15.330] [SPACEROGUE]: They were going to close it down.
[42:15.430 --> 42:17.310] [SPACEROGUE]: They were probably worried about what I would say when they did.
[42:17.490 --> 42:20.630] [SPACEROGUE]: So like, you know, we'll just get rid of Space Rogue and his HNN.
[42:20.890 --> 42:30.050] [SPACEROGUE]: And so they got they fired me and they fired one other person in the in the Virginia office or at the same time, the Research Triangle Park, which is in North Carolina.
[42:30.250 --> 42:30.670] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't remember.
[42:31.150 --> 42:31.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[42:31.690 --> 42:31.930] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know.
[42:32.050 --> 42:32.470] [SPACEROGUE]: It's Virginia.
[42:32.790 --> 42:32.950] [SPACEROGUE]: Right.
[42:33.050 --> 42:33.230] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[42:33.670 --> 42:41.570] [SPACEROGUE]: Anyway, so they fired me and one other person in the other office sort of as a as a token, I think, to say, OK, not everybody's untouchable.
[42:41.810 --> 42:42.910] [SPACEROGUE]: Like there's nobody untouchable.
[42:43.630 --> 42:47.790] [SPACEROGUE]: And I think that was that was kind of why I was let go.
[42:48.390 --> 42:50.050] [SPACEROGUE]: But that was it was a big shock to me.
[42:50.330 --> 42:53.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Did you guys still have the space, the L0pht space?
[42:53.450 --> 42:53.870] [SPACEROGUE]: No.
[42:54.130 --> 42:56.630] [SPACEROGUE]: The lease had gotten up a few months earlier.
[42:57.390 --> 43:02.850] [SPACEROGUE]: And so it was it had been closed down and cleaned out and weren't using it anymore at all.
[43:03.770 --> 43:14.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I think I went there by the time the day I got fired, of course, by the time I got home, my L0pht email was turned off, which is shocking because I wasn't expecting my L0pht email to get turned off.
[43:14.890 --> 43:20.770] [SPACEROGUE]: I was expecting my AtStake email to go away, of course, but not my L0pht email that I had had for seven years.
[43:20.970 --> 43:23.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And so I lost all that mail spool.
[43:23.530 --> 43:24.790] [SPACEROGUE]: All that history was gone.
[43:25.090 --> 43:31.030] [SPACEROGUE]: When it came time to write the book, I wasn't able to refer to that, which was kind of a pain made it difficult.
[43:31.470 --> 43:37.190] [SPACEROGUE]: But the L0pht space itself, the lease had been up and we had moved most of the stuff out of there into the AtStake office.
[43:37.190 --> 43:41.530] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, and so there wasn't really anything there, uh, to go back to.
[43:41.990 --> 43:42.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[43:42.550 --> 43:48.290] [EVILCORLEY]: That's, that's a sad ending as far as, uh, especially losing your mail.
[43:48.470 --> 43:56.270] [EVILCORLEY]: You would think that, you know, a hacker space, um, uh, that would never happen to, but when corporations get involved, I guess, I guess anything's possible.
[43:56.550 --> 43:56.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[43:57.530 --> 43:58.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Had no, had no idea.
[43:59.530 --> 43:59.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Tell us.
[44:00.110 --> 44:05.630] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know if you remember, you had another, uh, show about AtStake with, uh, Phiber, Phiber Optik.
[44:06.950 --> 44:07.730] [EVILCORLEY]: I do remember that.
[44:07.810 --> 44:15.050] [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, if I can recall, uh, he had tried to get a job there and they rejected him because he had been arrested for being a hacker.
[44:15.210 --> 44:15.990] [SPACEROGUE]: Because he was a hacker.
[44:16.270 --> 44:20.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Which was the ultimate irony and, and something, uh, that started as the L0pht.
[44:21.210 --> 44:21.450] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, right.
[44:21.450 --> 44:23.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Basically rejecting somebody for being a hacker.
[44:23.770 --> 44:24.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Um, yeah.
[44:24.830 --> 44:33.010] [EVILCORLEY]: So, uh, that, that, that definitely was something, um, being the first one out, uh, were there others who, who, uh, left afterwards?
[44:33.010 --> 44:36.110] [EVILCORLEY]: Did, were you ever to stay on good terms with the original members?
[44:36.790 --> 44:56.790] [SPACEROGUE]: So, uh, uh, AtStake, it also hired, uh, uh, not a hacker type, but a, a luminary in cyber security, even then, Dan Geer, uh, and Dan ended up co-authoring a paper on, um, uh, homogeneous networks, basically Windows networks, uh, and saying that, that such networks were not a good idea and not very secure.
[44:56.790 --> 45:10.550] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and he was, uh, pretty much let go shortly thereafter, um, for, uh, he, they didn't say it was for his writing of the paper, but I, I'm fairly positive it was, but that's more Dan's story to tell than mine.
[45:11.050 --> 45:14.510] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, but yeah, so there was some other, and then there was the Phiber Optik incident.
[45:15.130 --> 45:25.670] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, uh, management, I think, didn't really understand what L0pht was or what we did or what we stood for or, uh, any of that, um, unfortunately.
[45:26.050 --> 45:30.170] [SPACEROGUE]: So, like I said, when you add money, things, money to things, it's often goes bad.
[45:31.550 --> 45:33.830] [GILADRAZEN]: Uh, sorry, just wanted to jump in for a second.
[45:33.870 --> 45:44.050] [GILADRAZEN]: And speaking of a good way to add money to things that will not go bad, we do want to thank our first recipient of a signed copy of Space Rogue's book.
[45:44.210 --> 45:47.330] [GILADRAZEN]: One left, 15 minutes to go.
[45:47.690 --> 45:49.750] [GILADRAZEN]: Um, just know that there's one more.
[45:49.750 --> 45:51.190] [GILADRAZEN]: So if you're going to do it, do it quick.
[45:51.390 --> 45:53.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, you have to email us before eight o'clock.
[45:53.750 --> 45:59.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, you know, you can, you can pledge after that and you'll be helping the station, but, uh, you won't be eligible for this particular offer.
[46:00.270 --> 46:05.910] [EVILCORLEY]: So anyone who, uh, pledges as a WBAI buddy, we'll get an autographed, uh, paperback copy of Space Rogue's book.
[46:06.410 --> 46:07.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, go ahead, Rob.
[46:07.930 --> 46:08.290] [ROBVINCENT]: Yes.
[46:08.350 --> 46:20.270] [ROBVINCENT]: And if you are one of the first two people, um, this person or the next one to, uh, get your info to us about your new WBAI buddy ship, uh, we will be in touch with you about, uh, getting your mailing info and all that good stuff.
[46:20.550 --> 46:22.310] [ROBVINCENT]: So if you hear from us, you're lucky.
[46:22.510 --> 46:23.390] [GILADRAZEN]: And we thank you.
[46:23.770 --> 46:29.930] [GILADRAZEN]: Um, and we encourage lots of people to become WBAI buddies, even if, you know, you're not able to get a book tonight.
[46:30.190 --> 46:32.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Now we've mentioned Hacker News Network.
[46:32.150 --> 46:38.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Can, uh, can you tell us something about how that got started, what it was all about and, and, um, um, did it relaunch?
[46:40.030 --> 46:40.390] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[46:40.550 --> 46:48.110] [SPACEROGUE]: So Hacker News Network was an idea I had years ago of trying to, to basically earn some money for the L0pht to pay our rent and our electric bill.
[46:48.570 --> 46:53.370] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, we had this, you know, l0pht.com was one of the, probably one of the first 10,000 websites on the Internet.
[46:53.590 --> 46:55.350] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, so it was a very early website.
[46:55.490 --> 46:58.230] [SPACEROGUE]: And so we published all our advisories and all our other information.
[46:58.230 --> 46:59.690] [SPACEROGUE]: And it became very, very popular.
[46:59.950 --> 47:02.790] [SPACEROGUE]: And, uh, I got, uh, you know, back in the day, we call them hits, right?
[47:03.010 --> 47:08.150] [SPACEROGUE]: A lot of web hits on the, on that site, but we didn't want to put web ads on the site.
[47:08.230 --> 47:08.990] [SPACEROGUE]: Web ads were huge.
[47:09.130 --> 47:20.250] [SPACEROGUE]: A lot of people were making a lot of money on banner ads from their websites, but we didn't want to be beholden to add, be beholden to advertisers or, or, um, have them influence anything that we'd say.
[47:20.370 --> 47:27.670] [SPACEROGUE]: So we didn't want to put ads on l0pht.com, but at the same time, I'm like looking at all these other websites with tons of banner ads, making tons of money.
[47:27.670 --> 47:30.670] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm like, you know, there's got to be a way that we can get a small slice of that.
[47:30.810 --> 47:35.430] [SPACEROGUE]: So I came up with this idea to create an entirely new website called Hacker News Network.
[47:35.450 --> 47:41.290] [SPACEROGUE]: And I was just going to put links on it of news stories related to hackers, right?
[47:41.950 --> 47:42.990] [SPACEROGUE]: And that's what I did.
[47:43.310 --> 47:46.150] [SPACEROGUE]: And after about a year or two, it got to be pretty popular.
[47:46.330 --> 47:48.050] [SPACEROGUE]: I'd post the... I'd wake up every morning.
[47:48.690 --> 47:54.190] [SPACEROGUE]: I'd scour my list of bookmarks for relevant news stories.
[47:54.630 --> 47:56.750] [SPACEROGUE]: I'd write a small blurb for each one.
[47:56.750 --> 47:59.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'd post it, try to have it posted up by 9 a.m. Eastern every day.
[48:00.670 --> 48:04.670] [SPACEROGUE]: So I was waking up early in the morning, gathering the news, posting it online.
[48:05.210 --> 48:10.790] [SPACEROGUE]: And it came to be a pretty good de facto source for, you know, hacker related news.
[48:10.970 --> 48:13.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, we used it all the time for the radio show.
[48:13.330 --> 48:13.950] [EVILCORLEY]: We always used it.
[48:14.370 --> 48:15.270] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, nice.
[48:16.450 --> 48:17.050] [SPACEROGUE]: That's great.
[48:17.270 --> 48:19.490] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry if we never gave credit, but we did use it.
[48:20.330 --> 48:21.750] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, you're not the only ones.
[48:21.850 --> 48:31.230] [SPACEROGUE]: If you watch, there's a video out of from the FBI about Solar Sunrise, which was an active mission that the FBI did years ago about hacking and whatnot.
[48:31.630 --> 48:36.590] [SPACEROGUE]: And in the background, on several of the shots in that video, there's a Hacker News Network on the computer monitor.
[48:36.750 --> 48:38.130] [SPACEROGUE]: So that was a nice thing, too.
[48:38.630 --> 48:43.450] [SPACEROGUE]: But then, you know, AtStake happened, and the venture capital didn't want Hacker News Network.
[48:43.570 --> 48:46.470] [SPACEROGUE]: And after they fired me, they kind of killed the website pretty quickly.
[48:47.250 --> 48:53.670] [SPACEROGUE]: And so, like, 15 years later, 10 years later, Tan, one of the L0pht guys, calls me up out of the blue.
[48:53.670 --> 48:54.430] [SPACEROGUE]: And he's like, dude.
[48:54.710 --> 48:55.410] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, what?
[48:55.590 --> 48:57.930] [SPACEROGUE]: And he's like, we got to bring HNN back.
[48:58.110 --> 48:59.270] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, no, we don't.
[48:59.550 --> 49:00.390] [SPACEROGUE]: He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[49:00.450 --> 49:01.270] [SPACEROGUE]: We'll do it as video.
[49:01.490 --> 49:02.610] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, I don't know nothing about video.
[49:02.730 --> 49:03.210] [SPACEROGUE]: Me neither.
[49:03.530 --> 49:06.150] [SPACEROGUE]: And so, somehow, he convinced me.
[49:06.290 --> 49:10.850] [SPACEROGUE]: I borrowed a camera from my job, and I filmed a pilot episode.
[49:10.870 --> 49:13.130] [SPACEROGUE]: And I was like, yeah, I get right back into this.
[49:13.130 --> 49:15.850] [SPACEROGUE]: So, we brought it back for a couple of years as video.
[49:16.090 --> 49:21.670] [SPACEROGUE]: I did a weekly news show of Hacker News Network, of me in front of the camera, reading the news.
[49:22.190 --> 49:24.450] [SPACEROGUE]: And we had a bunch of different segments in the show.
[49:24.870 --> 49:26.650] [SPACEROGUE]: But it was like a half hour long.
[49:27.790 --> 49:32.750] [SPACEROGUE]: So, I couldn't really upload it to YouTube, because at the time, YouTube had a 10-minute limit.
[49:32.850 --> 49:33.150] [EVILCORLEY]: That's right.
[49:33.150 --> 49:33.690] [SPACEROGUE]: Do you remember that?
[49:33.870 --> 49:34.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, yeah.
[49:34.690 --> 49:38.290] [SPACEROGUE]: So, we were kind of like ahead of the time, ahead of the curve, as it were.
[49:38.290 --> 49:46.390] [SPACEROGUE]: I think if I had held on for, like, another six months or so, and waited for YouTube to get rid of their 10-minute limit, you know, the sky would have been in the limit.
[49:46.510 --> 49:53.950] [SPACEROGUE]: But as it was, I was putting 40 hours a week into doing the HNN video show, and then still trying to work 40 hours a week at my regular job.
[49:54.390 --> 49:58.730] [SPACEROGUE]: And so, after two years of that, it was just too much, and I couldn't keep it up anymore.
[49:58.750 --> 50:00.350] [SPACEROGUE]: I was burnt out, so I shut it down.
[50:01.050 --> 50:04.850] [SPACEROGUE]: And that was the end of the second incarnation of Hacker News Network.
[50:06.290 --> 50:08.510] [ROBVINCENT]: It had a really fun vibe to it, though.
[50:08.630 --> 50:11.850] [ROBVINCENT]: I loved the production design of it, and the sunglasses everywhere.
[50:12.110 --> 50:12.710] [ROBVINCENT]: It was a lot of fun.
[50:13.070 --> 50:17.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, so the show had a Max Headroom motif, and all that was basically thanks to Tan.
[50:18.710 --> 50:32.510] [SPACEROGUE]: I would film the show in front of a green screen, and I would write the whole copy, and I would read the copy for the show, and I would upload my green screen video, and he would edit it and put the backgrounds in, and the sound effects, and the logos, and all that funny stuff
[50:34.430 --> 50:36.670] [SPACEROGUE]: So, big thanks to Tan for that.
[50:37.810 --> 50:38.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Space Rogue, we're out of time.
[50:39.090 --> 50:39.690] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry.
[50:39.870 --> 50:40.350] [SPACEROGUE]: That was quick.
[50:40.510 --> 50:42.750] [EVILCORLEY]: I hope you can stick around for Overtime.
[50:43.110 --> 50:44.630] [SPACEROGUE]: I can stick around for a little while, sure.
[50:44.630 --> 50:45.410] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, that'd be great.
[50:45.490 --> 50:52.330] [EVILCORLEY]: So, the conversation will continue on Channel2600 on YouTube at 8 o'clock for anybody who wants to maybe even call in as well.
[50:52.330 --> 51:05.350] [EVILCORLEY]: And for those of you who are still looking for an autographed copy of Space Rogue's book, Space Rogue: How the Hackers Known as L0pht Changed the World, actually, Cris Thomas is the author's name, Space Rogue is the handle.
[51:07.530 --> 51:16.030] [EVILCORLEY]: Please go to give2wbai.org and become a WBAI buddy and email us at oth@2600.com by 8 o'clock.
[51:16.250 --> 51:18.130] [EVILCORLEY]: And if it's a tie, you know what?
[51:19.030 --> 51:25.170] [EVILCORLEY]: We'll pitch in and donate and get an extra book so people... don't do that and not get a book.
[51:25.650 --> 51:35.490] [EVILCORLEY]: But for those of you who are listening in the future or don't want to do it that way, the book is available on Amazon, everywhere else.
[51:36.110 --> 51:36.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Are there other places?
[51:36.890 --> 51:37.350] [SPACEROGUE]: Everywhere else.
[51:37.610 --> 51:37.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[51:37.970 --> 51:39.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Wherever you get your books.
[51:39.610 --> 51:40.170] [SPACEROGUE]: There you go.
[51:40.970 --> 51:43.230] [EVILCORLEY]: And it's really such a great thing.
[51:43.350 --> 51:45.410] [EVILCORLEY]: I really look forward to reading the rest of it myself.
[51:46.290 --> 51:49.790] [EVILCORLEY]: And we'll be continuing the conversation over on YouTube.
[51:53.350 --> 51:53.790] [ROBVINCENT]: Excellent.
[51:53.790 --> 51:57.310] [ROBVINCENT]: Before we go, I just want to say a quick couple of words.
[51:57.570 --> 52:03.770] [ROBVINCENT]: The hacker community, very sadly, has just had to say goodbye to a luminary among their ranks.
[52:04.130 --> 52:10.870] [ROBVINCENT]: Kelly Lum, who is known as Aloria, passed away due to complications from an illness.
[52:11.150 --> 52:14.310] [ROBVINCENT]: And she was known by so many in this community.
[52:14.310 --> 52:18.270] [ROBVINCENT]: She was a regular presence at conferences and everything.
[52:18.610 --> 52:22.270] [ROBVINCENT]: And basically, nobody has a negative thing to say about her.
[52:22.270 --> 52:24.530] [ROBVINCENT]: She was a wonderful person, very welcoming, very helpful.
[52:24.850 --> 52:32.050] [ROBVINCENT]: And we're going to close with a piece of music that she once tweeted about enjoying while complaining that she has terrible taste in music.
[52:32.290 --> 52:34.850] [ROBVINCENT]: So, yes, Aloria will be missed.
[52:35.230 --> 52:36.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you, Rob.
[52:36.770 --> 52:38.870] [EVILCORLEY]: We'll see you in two weeks.
[52:39.270 --> 52:44.590] [EVILCORLEY]: oth@2600.com and on YouTube at 8 o'clock, Channel2600.
[56:56.810 --> 57:00.750] [EVILCORLEY]: And welcome, everybody, on YouTube for Off The Hook Overtime.
[57:01.450 --> 57:02.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Emmanuel is here.
[57:03.050 --> 57:04.410] [EVILCORLEY]: Kyle, I think you made it as well.
[57:04.750 --> 57:05.450] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yes, I'm here.
[57:05.550 --> 57:08.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Sounds like our friends in Skype-land, Rob, Gila.
[57:09.310 --> 57:09.990] [ROBVINCENT]: Good evening.
[57:10.170 --> 57:10.390] [GILADRAZEN]: Hello.
[57:10.610 --> 57:10.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[57:10.970 --> 57:12.490] [EVILCORLEY]: And Space Rogue, you're with us as well.
[57:12.930 --> 57:13.750] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm still here.
[57:13.910 --> 57:14.370] [EVILCORLEY]: It's okay.
[57:14.370 --> 57:16.110] [EVILCORLEY]: I keep calling you Space Rogue and not Cris.
[57:16.190 --> 57:17.130] [SPACEROGUE]: That's absolutely fine.
[57:17.150 --> 57:18.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Because that's how I know you and that's...
[57:18.630 --> 57:19.650] [SPACEROGUE]: That's who I am.
[57:19.650 --> 57:21.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, that's exactly who you are.
[57:21.390 --> 57:25.630] [EVILCORLEY]: That handle you picked in a few minutes that's stuck with you.
[57:25.810 --> 57:26.750] [EVILCORLEY]: There's no getting rid of it.
[57:27.190 --> 57:31.670] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, during the break, Kyle was telling me some history of his own.
[57:31.990 --> 57:32.950] [EVILCORLEY]: You want to share this?
[57:33.090 --> 57:49.510] [KYLEDROSDK]: Well, I happened upon the L0pht's website when I was very young in, like, middle school, just out of curiosity and some of the news stories, I no doubt from perhaps listening to the radio or osmosis, who knows how, but happened upon the L0pht's website.
[57:49.730 --> 57:58.830] [KYLEDROSDK]: And one thing I remember from it, I don't know if this is actually something that existed there or if I just imagined it, but the L0phtEye, that was...
[57:58.830 --> 58:05.670] [KYLEDROSDK]: I don't think it was video, but it was pre-streaming, and it was some kind of image every couple of minutes or something.
[58:05.890 --> 58:08.590] [KYLEDROSDK]: And I remember that that was really magical because there was no such thing as that.
[58:08.590 --> 58:12.390] [KYLEDROSDK]: I was fascinated with online, like, radio, RealAudio.
[58:12.590 --> 58:17.810] [KYLEDROSDK]: Of course, the radio shows that, again, 2600 was pretty ahead of their time.
[58:17.910 --> 58:21.250] [KYLEDROSDK]: But how ahead of the time was L0pht by just doing that?
[58:21.310 --> 58:22.450] [KYLEDROSDK]: Can you describe it a little bit?
[58:22.510 --> 58:31.370] [KYLEDROSDK]: Because we had a pre-stream at HOPE 2020, and it was sort of inspired by that, like we did a little bit of a video feed before the event in anticipation.
[58:31.370 --> 58:34.810] [KYLEDROSDK]: And it was very much from seeing that in my early days.
[58:35.270 --> 58:37.550] [SPACEROGUE]: So that's how L0pht changed the world, right there.
[58:38.310 --> 58:39.130] [KYLEDROSDK]: For me, certainly.
[58:40.110 --> 58:41.590] [SPACEROGUE]: L0phtEye was an interesting thing.
[58:41.690 --> 58:43.630] [SPACEROGUE]: We had a video capture card.
[58:44.250 --> 58:46.670] [SPACEROGUE]: I think it was in, like, a Mac 2 or something.
[58:46.830 --> 58:49.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, one of those big, old, huge, old Macs on a NuBus card.
[58:50.050 --> 58:50.250] [KYLEDROSDK]: Awesome.
[58:50.270 --> 58:52.810] [SPACEROGUE]: And we had a video camera from the flea market.
[58:53.030 --> 58:55.190] [SPACEROGUE]: In Boston, we have the MIT ham radio flea market.
[58:55.270 --> 58:56.390] [SPACEROGUE]: We find all kinds of junk there.
[58:56.610 --> 59:00.110] [SPACEROGUE]: So we had an old video camera, and we had this video capture card.
[59:00.630 --> 59:09.070] [SPACEROGUE]: And the software we had would grab a capture off the video, like, every three seconds or something, every two seconds.
[59:09.510 --> 59:15.850] [SPACEROGUE]: So it wasn't actually streaming, but it would update the picture every now and then, you know, constantly.
[59:16.210 --> 59:20.170] [SPACEROGUE]: But, and if you were lucky, you would see one of us walking in front of the camera.
[59:20.490 --> 59:23.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, it wasn't actually pointed at anybody's desk or anything.
[59:24.310 --> 59:34.110] [SPACEROGUE]: But, you know, we'd look at the web traffic and the traffic that was coming into our network, and be like, that's a pretty popular thing, this L0phtEye that has a static image on it, basically, right?
[59:34.150 --> 59:37.570] [SPACEROGUE]: It's just updating every second of the same area in the L0pht.
[59:37.750 --> 59:44.510] [SPACEROGUE]: But a lot of people visited the L0phtEye, I guess, trying to hopefully catch a glimpse of us walking by or something.
[59:44.650 --> 59:47.470] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know if anybody ever did, but it was there, and that's what it was.
[59:47.590 --> 59:50.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Kyle, how does a kid in middle school find out about the L0phtEye?
[59:50.490 --> 59:51.750] [KYLEDROSDK]: I don't know.
[59:52.130 --> 59:54.230] [KYLEDROSDK]: That's what happens, you know?
[59:54.390 --> 59:56.910] [KYLEDROSDK]: You start reading about these things, you hear about groups.
[59:57.070 --> 59:58.010] [KYLEDROSDK]: I don't know, search engines?
[59:58.110 --> 01:00:08.910] [KYLEDROSDK]: I don't honestly remember how, but I was on that site, and very much, I think the mystery, it just captivated me, and just was inspiring that people were out there.
[01:00:09.030 --> 01:00:18.490] [KYLEDROSDK]: And it was kind of like something that's popular now, I guess, be real or whatever, like seeing a clip of something, or like the very streaming site we're on now with YouTube.
[01:00:18.750 --> 01:00:24.290] [KYLEDROSDK]: But it was so early on, and digital photos were just emerging.
[01:00:24.590 --> 01:00:41.770] [KYLEDROSDK]: So having this sense that something through the Internet was going on live, like it was so new, and it felt like just another one of the things you did getting online to realize this information age that was out there.
[01:00:41.770 --> 01:00:43.970] [EVILCORLEY]: It's the magic of technology, new technology.
[01:00:43.970 --> 01:00:45.630] [EVILCORLEY]: We see that today with ChatGPT.
[01:00:46.130 --> 01:00:52.310] [EVILCORLEY]: All kinds of fun toys to play with and abuse in one way or another, but that's one I had forgotten about.
[01:00:52.470 --> 01:00:53.290] [KYLEDROSDK]: Thanks for sharing.
[01:00:53.430 --> 01:00:58.710] [KYLEDROSDK]: I never got to know more about it, but I didn't know, and I'm thrilled to hear that it was popular.
[01:01:00.150 --> 01:01:02.010] [ROBVINCENT]: Yeah, I remember this too.
[01:01:02.290 --> 01:01:12.890] [ROBVINCENT]: And this was an era, like that very early era of online webcams, where I remember there was one famous one that was just like the coffee machine in, I think, MIT somewhere.
[01:01:13.090 --> 01:01:13.750] [ROBVINCENT]: And there was another one.
[01:01:13.870 --> 01:01:19.930] [ROBVINCENT]: There were ones pointed at aquariums, and somebody pointed one at like some rotting meat, and it was just like rotchist meat rot.
[01:01:22.130 --> 01:01:23.790] [ROBVINCENT]: And the L0phtEye was another one.
[01:01:23.830 --> 01:01:28.730] [ROBVINCENT]: And if you were part of hacker culture back then, and you knew who the L0pht were, you're like, I want to see what's going on on their webcam.
[01:01:29.030 --> 01:01:34.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Didn't they just have a rotting meat cam in the U.K., where one of the prime ministers was going to resign?
[01:01:34.210 --> 01:01:34.730] [SPACEROGUE]: It was cabbage.
[01:01:34.730 --> 01:01:35.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, it was cabbage.
[01:01:36.250 --> 01:01:36.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Totally different.
[01:01:37.070 --> 01:01:37.210] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:01:37.870 --> 01:01:40.390] [SPACEROGUE]: But a little bit of trivia for you for L0phtEye.
[01:01:40.670 --> 01:01:51.810] [SPACEROGUE]: The video card that we used in that Mac 2 was actually the same video card that was used to process the video or the pictures for people that went to the first HOPE conference.
[01:01:52.350 --> 01:01:53.230] [EVILCORLEY]: That's right!
[01:01:53.350 --> 01:01:54.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, I remember that.
[01:01:54.990 --> 01:02:05.810] [EVILCORLEY]: 1994, you guys came down and you were running the ID system that we were going to use until we realized that each ID took, what, about three minutes to print?
[01:02:06.390 --> 01:02:06.790] [SPACEROGUE]: It took forever.
[01:02:07.050 --> 01:02:09.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And we had a thousand people waiting for IDs.
[01:02:09.670 --> 01:02:10.910] [EVILCORLEY]: They were so patient.
[01:02:11.070 --> 01:02:11.670] [EVILCORLEY]: They really were patient.
[01:02:11.770 --> 01:02:14.890] [EVILCORLEY]: But it turned into us basically having to take cash from people.
[01:02:14.950 --> 01:02:20.990] [EVILCORLEY]: I think it was Rop from Amsterdam was walking around with a big bag of cash, and we were just taking people at their word that they paid.
[01:02:21.070 --> 01:02:24.790] [EVILCORLEY]: And then we just gave them some piece of paper that said, yeah, this is the ticket.
[01:02:25.010 --> 01:02:26.790] [KYLEDROSDK]: Or like, I think it was a string or something.
[01:02:26.790 --> 01:02:28.190] [EVILCORLEY]: It was amazing.
[01:02:28.670 --> 01:02:29.230] [EVILCORLEY]: By the way...
[01:02:29.230 --> 01:02:30.870] [SPACEROGUE]: It was the same video card.
[01:02:31.150 --> 01:02:31.590] [KYLEDROSDK]: Awesome.
[01:02:31.910 --> 01:02:32.930] [EVILCORLEY]: That video card is...
[01:02:32.930 --> 01:02:34.270] [EVILCORLEY]: I hope it's enshrined somewhere.
[01:02:34.810 --> 01:02:39.950] [EVILCORLEY]: But in 1997 at Beyond HOPE, the second conference, you guys had a panel.
[01:02:40.830 --> 01:02:50.710] [EVILCORLEY]: It was you, it was Mudge, Brian Oblivion, Kingpin, Stefan, Weld Pond, and John Tan, I believe, according to this summary here.
[01:02:50.970 --> 01:02:54.910] [EVILCORLEY]: And for about an hour, you just talked about all kinds of projects and accomplishments.
[01:02:54.910 --> 01:02:57.790] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was just, you saw how much fun it was.
[01:02:57.890 --> 01:02:59.030] [EVILCORLEY]: You saw how much fun you guys were having.
[01:02:59.150 --> 01:03:01.570] [EVILCORLEY]: This was one year before the congressional testimony.
[01:03:02.290 --> 01:03:06.290] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was, it was, it was contagious, your enthusiasm.
[01:03:06.850 --> 01:03:07.390] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, thanks.
[01:03:07.510 --> 01:03:10.270] [SPACEROGUE]: That was a, that was kind of a big moment for me.
[01:03:11.090 --> 01:03:18.630] [SPACEROGUE]: It was really the first time I had been around, out in public as L0pht, around people that knew kind of what L0pht was.
[01:03:19.310 --> 01:03:20.630] [SPACEROGUE]: And people were coming up to me.
[01:03:20.710 --> 01:03:21.550] [SPACEROGUE]: It was like, oh, you're L0pht.
[01:03:21.630 --> 01:03:22.270] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, you're Space Rogue.
[01:03:22.270 --> 01:03:29.490] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm like, so, and something clicked, like, okay, L0pht is kind of just more than just some random website where we're kind of messing around.
[01:03:30.290 --> 01:03:41.050] [SPACEROGUE]: And it just sort of, and the fact, if you remember, you had, we had a live video feed from that HOPE conference in New York to Chaos in Germany.
[01:03:41.050 --> 01:03:45.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Actually, it was to, what was it called?
[01:03:45.330 --> 01:03:48.630] [EVILCORLEY]: HIP, Hacking in Progress in the Netherlands.
[01:03:48.890 --> 01:03:49.150] [SPACEROGUE]: Netherlands.
[01:03:49.430 --> 01:03:51.570] [SPACEROGUE]: It was overseas, it was in Europe, is all I remember.
[01:03:51.730 --> 01:03:56.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, we couldn't, to save our lives, we couldn't establish a connection with them.
[01:03:56.350 --> 01:04:04.030] [EVILCORLEY]: It was kind of similar to our most recent conference where we tried the same thing with another conference in the Netherlands, and we couldn't connect with them either for some reason.
[01:04:04.670 --> 01:04:08.290] [SPACEROGUE]: But it was just the fact that, it was up for a little bit, like for a few minutes.
[01:04:08.290 --> 01:04:13.790] [SPACEROGUE]: And it was just, that was kind of an eye-opening moment for me about just everything in general.
[01:04:14.010 --> 01:04:17.070] [SPACEROGUE]: And that conference was really, it's cemented in my memory.
[01:04:17.150 --> 01:04:18.530] [SPACEROGUE]: I write about it in the book a little bit.
[01:04:19.090 --> 01:04:27.590] [SPACEROGUE]: And we have all of us on the stage, and we're kind of all talking, and I'm like, all these people are sitting here listening to us talk about nonsense, what it felt like to me.
[01:04:28.490 --> 01:04:32.990] [SPACEROGUE]: So it was just really a big, important event in my life.
[01:04:33.530 --> 01:04:35.830] [EVILCORLEY]: As it was for all of us in attendance.
[01:04:36.150 --> 01:04:37.290] [EVILCORLEY]: And you can see that.
[01:04:37.290 --> 01:04:43.970] [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, on the very channel that people are on right now, Channel2600, there's another section where there's early HOPE conferences.
[01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:44.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Just go to Beyond HOPE.
[01:04:45.190 --> 01:04:47.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Look for the L0pht talk, and you can see the whole thing.
[01:04:47.510 --> 01:04:49.390] [EVILCORLEY]: It's really fascinating to watch.
[01:04:49.610 --> 01:04:51.610] [EVILCORLEY]: I was looking at it a little bit earlier.
[01:04:52.510 --> 01:04:55.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, Space Rogue, tell us something about the Wacked Mac Archives.
[01:04:55.330 --> 01:04:55.910] [EVILCORLEY]: What's that all about?
[01:04:56.010 --> 01:04:56.990] [SPACEROGUE]: Wacked Mac Archives.
[01:04:57.390 --> 01:05:00.710] [SPACEROGUE]: So, yeah, that was another one of my little projects that I put together.
[01:05:02.090 --> 01:05:10.370] [SPACEROGUE]: So before the Internet, I would dial around to various bulletin board systems, and I was a Mac user, and I would basically download hacking utilities.
[01:05:10.630 --> 01:05:20.950] [SPACEROGUE]: You know, things like, I don't know, war dialers and credit card number checkers and, you know, whatever doodads that you really couldn't find in most shareware sites.
[01:05:21.410 --> 01:05:27.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And I had a pretty decent collection of various hacking utilities, little small Mac programs.
[01:05:27.950 --> 01:05:33.150] [SPACEROGUE]: And so when the L0pht had this permanent Internet access, it was dial-up still.
[01:05:33.310 --> 01:05:35.390] [SPACEROGUE]: It was 57.6K dial-up.
[01:05:35.530 --> 01:05:40.650] [SPACEROGUE]: It wasn't super fast or anything at the start, but I was like, you know, I'm going to share all this with everybody else.
[01:05:40.730 --> 01:05:43.770] [SPACEROGUE]: And so I started a little FTP site called the Wacked Mac Archives.
[01:05:43.990 --> 01:05:48.510] [SPACEROGUE]: And I built a little website to go with it that cataloged all the different files that we had.
[01:05:50.650 --> 01:05:52.390] [SPACEROGUE]: And it was very popular.
[01:05:53.710 --> 01:05:59.330] [SPACEROGUE]: So much so that it would saturate our little dial-up line with people trying to get the files and download them all.
[01:05:59.690 --> 01:06:08.870] [SPACEROGUE]: And so unbeknownst to me, Weld and the other folks in the L0pht created a script that they would run on the main L0pht box, upwhacked, downwhacked.
[01:06:09.010 --> 01:06:16.310] [SPACEROGUE]: So when they would come in to use the Internet and it was saturated with people downloading Wacked Mac Archives, they'd be like, downwhacked.
[01:06:16.490 --> 01:06:17.750] [SPACEROGUE]: Then they'd do their work or whatever.
[01:06:17.750 --> 01:06:21.190] [SPACEROGUE]: And when they'd leave, they'd type upwhacked and it would come back online.
[01:06:21.350 --> 01:06:24.650] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, a lot of times they would forget to type upwhacked.
[01:06:24.770 --> 01:06:26.870] [SPACEROGUE]: And so sometimes it would be down for days.
[01:06:26.990 --> 01:06:28.990] [SPACEROGUE]: And I had no idea what was going on.
[01:06:29.090 --> 01:06:31.450] [SPACEROGUE]: And I would come into the L0pht and I'd check the site.
[01:06:31.550 --> 01:06:33.710] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, oh yeah, everything's still working, but there's nobody on.
[01:06:33.810 --> 01:06:34.810] [SPACEROGUE]: I wonder why nobody's on.
[01:06:34.870 --> 01:06:35.750] [SPACEROGUE]: I guess it's not that popular.
[01:06:36.550 --> 01:06:41.510] [SPACEROGUE]: And it was like months would go by before I realized what was going on with this upwhacked, downwhacked thing.
[01:06:41.590 --> 01:06:43.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And we all got a good laugh out of this.
[01:06:43.710 --> 01:06:45.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow, that's really awesome.
[01:06:46.710 --> 01:06:52.790] [EVILCORLEY]: You've also been involved in speaking out about voting machines, security, and that kind of thing.
[01:06:52.870 --> 01:06:53.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Tell us about that.
[01:06:54.530 --> 01:06:55.770] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, so I've...
[01:06:55.770 --> 01:07:14.250] [SPACEROGUE]: Back before it got to be a super political issue, I did a little bit of research and speaking and press releases, stuff about voting machines and the insecurity of electronic voting and the risks and hazards to our democracy that take place by having a lot of those machines.
[01:07:15.190 --> 01:07:19.790] [SPACEROGUE]: For me, though, I think that the rhetoric got to be extremely strong.
[01:07:20.050 --> 01:07:33.050] [SPACEROGUE]: And so I kind of stepped back from being a public figure in that area because it just became too much of a charged atmosphere and the rhetoric on both sides became very, very thick, if you will.
[01:07:33.510 --> 01:07:35.330] [SPACEROGUE]: But yeah, it's still a problem.
[01:07:35.510 --> 01:07:35.990] [SPACEROGUE]: It's still an issue.
[01:07:36.130 --> 01:07:37.970] [SPACEROGUE]: It's not a solved problem by any means.
[01:07:38.350 --> 01:07:40.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's still something we need to watch out for.
[01:07:41.130 --> 01:07:41.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Interesting.
[01:07:42.750 --> 01:07:47.750] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm just going through the list of various things that either you or L0pht have been involved in.
[01:07:47.910 --> 01:07:50.950] [EVILCORLEY]: And one thing that got my attention was a POCSAG decoder.
[01:07:51.510 --> 01:07:52.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, yeah.
[01:07:52.310 --> 01:07:53.250] [EVILCORLEY]: So that's...
[01:07:53.250 --> 01:07:56.030] [EVILCORLEY]: For those who don't know, that's a paging software.
[01:07:56.510 --> 01:08:00.710] [EVILCORLEY]: So you guys were able to decode pager traffic?
[01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:01.610] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[01:08:01.770 --> 01:08:03.510] [SPACEROGUE]: So POCSAG or post...
[01:08:03.510 --> 01:08:04.550] [SPACEROGUE]: I forget what it stands for.
[01:08:04.690 --> 01:08:06.810] [SPACEROGUE]: P-O-C-S-A-G, POCSAG.
[01:08:07.650 --> 01:08:10.390] [SPACEROGUE]: Anyway, as you said, it's pager traffic.
[01:08:10.630 --> 01:08:20.030] [SPACEROGUE]: For those of you who remember that beepers that would beep and the really high-end beepers would have a small little digital display that you could put a message into.
[01:08:20.310 --> 01:08:23.650] [SPACEROGUE]: And that gets sent over the air, over the radio waves, in the clear.
[01:08:24.250 --> 01:08:26.710] [SPACEROGUE]: And so the protocol is very well known.
[01:08:26.950 --> 01:08:32.730] [SPACEROGUE]: It's easily captured over the air and it's easily transcribed back into regular text.
[01:08:32.890 --> 01:08:36.810] [SPACEROGUE]: And so Kingpin actually designed a small little circuit that would do this.
[01:08:38.070 --> 01:08:40.450] [SPACEROGUE]: And we put the circuit...
[01:08:40.450 --> 01:08:42.270] [SPACEROGUE]: We got some circuit boards made.
[01:08:42.610 --> 01:08:53.290] [SPACEROGUE]: We built the circuits, soldered them together, and put them inside of a DB-25 connector, which is, for those of you unfamiliar, it's basically a big, wide printer cable that has the end of it.
[01:08:53.730 --> 01:09:02.030] [SPACEROGUE]: And so you could then plug that into the back of your PC, run a piece of software, and capture all this pager traffic and just read all the pages that everybody's sending back and forth to each other.
[01:09:02.030 --> 01:09:13.090] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, you really don't have any idea of who sent and what to who, but it was kind of interesting to see anyway all kinds of weird stuff that you would get over the airs, over the radio waves via pagers.
[01:09:13.950 --> 01:09:14.170] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:09:14.450 --> 01:09:15.410] [EVILCORLEY]: Anything you remember?
[01:09:17.910 --> 01:09:18.630] [SPACEROGUE]: Not specifically.
[01:09:19.090 --> 01:09:29.470] [SPACEROGUE]: A lot of, you know, I love yous or, you know, I'm coming home on the way and a lot of 911, you know, people dialing 911 and the number, meaning, oh, it's an emergency, call home right away, you know, that sort of thing.
[01:09:31.510 --> 01:09:33.830] [SPACEROGUE]: But it's interesting to look at for a little while.
[01:09:34.070 --> 01:09:37.090] [SPACEROGUE]: It kind of, for me, it lost its interest pretty quickly.
[01:09:37.570 --> 01:09:38.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, it's funny.
[01:09:38.550 --> 01:09:42.650] [EVILCORLEY]: I just remember having a pager and, of course, back then, that was pre-cell phone.
[01:09:43.430 --> 01:09:48.730] [EVILCORLEY]: And if you wanted to call somebody, say you were driving, you'd have to pull over to the side of the road and find a payphone and call them that way.
[01:09:49.250 --> 01:09:52.630] [EVILCORLEY]: And I remember just, I was communicating with a friend of mine.
[01:09:52.750 --> 01:10:04.990] [EVILCORLEY]: I did this with several people, actually, and it was one way, obviously, but, you know, but we would send text messages by sending the equivalent numerical Touch-Tone key.
[01:10:05.190 --> 01:10:14.210] [EVILCORLEY]: So if I wanted to, you know, say hello, I would type four, three, what is it, five, five, six, would spell out hello on a Touch-Tone phone.
[01:10:14.450 --> 01:10:15.830] [EVILCORLEY]: But I'd have to figure it out.
[01:10:16.430 --> 01:10:17.770] [EVILCORLEY]: There's no way to figure it out.
[01:10:17.890 --> 01:10:25.230] [EVILCORLEY]: So I'd be driving in my car, in my head, looking at the Touch-Tone pad, saying, what could this person have meant, and then figuring it out.
[01:10:25.370 --> 01:10:30.870] [EVILCORLEY]: And it made the time go by, but it was those initial steps into that little bit of technology.
[01:10:30.870 --> 01:10:33.530] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was a bit of fun.
[01:10:34.110 --> 01:10:35.090] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, it's interesting.
[01:10:35.250 --> 01:10:41.650] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, sometimes people or even businesses would have codes, you know, okay, you know, 537 means this or whatever.
[01:10:41.830 --> 01:10:41.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Right.
[01:10:42.150 --> 01:10:47.690] [SPACEROGUE]: And then you would be able to just text those numbers back and forth and be able to communicate that way through a certain series of numbers.
[01:10:48.190 --> 01:10:48.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:10:48.770 --> 01:10:49.410] [EVILCORLEY]: That was amazing.
[01:10:56.910 --> 01:11:04.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Reminds me also, we had Mudge on the show and somehow our connection got lost or the voice part got lost and we actually started communicating by, I think, pressing keys.
[01:11:04.710 --> 01:11:10.430] [EVILCORLEY]: And we both realized that we could still hear each other, we just couldn't hear our voices and we were starting to communicate that way.
[01:11:10.510 --> 01:11:14.890] [EVILCORLEY]: So it's just these great hacker adventures that we somehow always get thrust into.
[01:11:15.370 --> 01:11:18.170] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's the magic that exists to this day.
[01:11:18.750 --> 01:11:22.230] [EVILCORLEY]: And on that subject, what do you have to say to people of today?
[01:11:22.330 --> 01:11:28.130] [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe people who are just starting out in the hacker world who don't have the same things that we had back in the 1990s.
[01:11:28.230 --> 01:11:30.970] [EVILCORLEY]: They have far more sophisticated tools now.
[01:11:31.250 --> 01:11:33.690] [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of people say, oh, hacking's just not the same.
[01:11:33.850 --> 01:11:35.030] [EVILCORLEY]: The spirit's not the same.
[01:11:35.290 --> 01:11:36.190] [EVILCORLEY]: What do you think about that?
[01:11:36.770 --> 01:11:38.410] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, the spirit's there.
[01:11:39.250 --> 01:11:40.690] [SPACEROGUE]: The hacking is still there.
[01:11:41.250 --> 01:11:42.530] [SPACEROGUE]: It's different, right?
[01:11:42.530 --> 01:11:43.510] [SPACEROGUE]: It's not the same tech.
[01:11:43.870 --> 01:11:45.150] [SPACEROGUE]: I'd actually say it's easier.
[01:11:45.370 --> 01:11:46.090] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, you got Google.
[01:11:46.330 --> 01:11:48.370] [SPACEROGUE]: You got all the answers right there in front of you.
[01:11:49.030 --> 01:11:51.210] [SPACEROGUE]: Just type them, enter your query.
[01:11:51.370 --> 01:11:53.470] [SPACEROGUE]: You got ChatGPT to find stuff for you.
[01:11:53.470 --> 01:11:55.990] [SPACEROGUE]: You have much more sophisticated technology.
[01:11:56.430 --> 01:12:00.210] [SPACEROGUE]: Raspberry Pis, Raspberry Pi Ws, well, when you can get them, right?
[01:12:00.330 --> 01:12:01.790] [SPACEROGUE]: There's kind of a shortage right now.
[01:12:02.210 --> 01:12:03.670] [SPACEROGUE]: But there's still Dumpsters.
[01:12:04.050 --> 01:12:05.250] [SPACEROGUE]: Dumpsters are still out there.
[01:12:05.770 --> 01:12:06.910] [SPACEROGUE]: There's flea markets.
[01:12:07.150 --> 01:12:09.370] [EVILCORLEY]: I remember going trashing with you guys in Boston.
[01:12:09.370 --> 01:12:10.970] [EVILCORLEY]: It was so much fun.
[01:12:10.970 --> 01:12:12.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Just finding all kinds of things.
[01:12:12.830 --> 01:12:16.010] [EVILCORLEY]: And then the fleas afterwards, the flea markets, the MIT.
[01:12:16.310 --> 01:12:17.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Do they still go on?
[01:12:17.310 --> 01:12:21.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, the flea markets, the third Sunday of every month at MIT on Vassar Street.
[01:12:22.610 --> 01:12:28.650] [SPACEROGUE]: In the summer, people show up and sell whatever junk they have or you go and buy more junk.
[01:12:28.830 --> 01:12:32.150] [EVILCORLEY]: We went there with the 2600 van once and it was a lot of fun.
[01:12:32.550 --> 01:12:34.050] [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't know why we didn't do that again.
[01:12:35.170 --> 01:12:35.910] [SPACEROGUE]: They're still there.
[01:12:36.050 --> 01:12:36.550] [SPACEROGUE]: They're waiting for you.
[01:12:36.650 --> 01:12:37.530] [EVILCORLEY]: And we still have the van.
[01:12:37.650 --> 01:12:38.510] [EVILCORLEY]: So maybe.
[01:12:38.670 --> 01:12:39.130] [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe this year.
[01:12:39.170 --> 01:12:40.090] [KYLEDROSDK]: I think a trip is due.
[01:12:40.350 --> 01:12:41.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:12:41.650 --> 01:12:43.490] [KYLEDROSDK]: We have some junk, actually, we could bring.
[01:12:43.650 --> 01:12:44.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Have you ever played with a Flipper Zero?
[01:12:45.670 --> 01:12:46.390] [SPACEROGUE]: I have not.
[01:12:46.390 --> 01:12:47.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I've read a lot about it so far.
[01:12:47.690 --> 01:12:58.490] [SPACEROGUE]: But yeah, speaking of technology and hacking, it's a pretty amazing piece of kit that you can get for inexpensive money and do some really, really neat tricks with.
[01:12:59.250 --> 01:13:01.030] [SPACEROGUE]: A lot of exploring to do there.
[01:13:01.170 --> 01:13:02.210] [EVILCORLEY]: We're hoping to do that.
[01:13:02.370 --> 01:13:04.110] [EVILCORLEY]: The first hack is getting one.
[01:13:04.510 --> 01:13:06.610] [EVILCORLEY]: They're very hard to get your hands on.
[01:13:07.170 --> 01:13:08.370] [EVILCORLEY]: But they are...
[01:13:08.370 --> 01:13:11.990] [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, I think Brazil just outlawed them because they're afraid of what they can do.
[01:13:12.590 --> 01:13:15.050] [EVILCORLEY]: For those who don't know, Kyle, how would you describe them?
[01:13:15.050 --> 01:13:18.430] [KYLEDROSDK]: It is like a electronic multi-tool.
[01:13:18.650 --> 01:13:33.110] [KYLEDROSDK]: And it is designed to test and to log and do a myriad of different things for very specific protocols, typically things used for access control.
[01:13:33.250 --> 01:13:41.910] [KYLEDROSDK]: But it also goes into different radio frequency bands like near field communication, NFC, as people might understand it.
[01:13:41.910 --> 01:13:48.310] [KYLEDROSDK]: And then that kind of goes into things if you imagine like contactless payment.
[01:13:48.730 --> 01:13:52.050] [KYLEDROSDK]: And of course, it has GPIO.
[01:13:52.490 --> 01:13:54.410] [EVILCORLEY]: Someone told me they could steal my car with one.
[01:13:54.470 --> 01:13:54.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Is that true?
[01:13:56.030 --> 01:14:02.870] [KYLEDROSDK]: I'm not going to say that it's for that, but it could definitely tell you a lot about how your car works, I think.
[01:14:03.210 --> 01:14:03.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, boy.
[01:14:03.230 --> 01:14:03.670] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:14:03.870 --> 01:14:08.730] [EVILCORLEY]: And as someone else said, you could just wave it over your credit card and it'll capture that somehow.
[01:14:09.390 --> 01:14:11.210] [KYLEDROSDK]: I think it can see credit cards, yeah.
[01:14:11.210 --> 01:14:14.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, I could just take a picture of the credit card, too, and get the same information, but whatever.
[01:14:15.850 --> 01:14:30.990] [KYLEDROSDK]: But there's a lot of these types of tools, much like Space Rogue was talking about, like Raspberry Pi, the microcontrollers, just the kits and breakout and tools that you can assemble.
[01:14:32.110 --> 01:14:39.410] [KYLEDROSDK]: They're great, fun little exercises, building little computers or building onto these kinds of multi-tools.
[01:14:39.410 --> 01:14:45.070] [KYLEDROSDK]: And so we're really excited about what people get into and other stuff like this.
[01:14:45.210 --> 01:14:48.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Space Rogue, did you ever make it to a Maker Faire before they stopped having them?
[01:14:48.990 --> 01:14:55.930] [SPACEROGUE]: No, I probably have the makings of a Maker Faire here in my office, but I never actually made it to an actual Maker Faire.
[01:14:56.330 --> 01:14:58.730] [SPACEROGUE]: I mean, I've got the 3D printer and the soldering iron.
[01:14:58.870 --> 01:14:59.990] [SPACEROGUE]: Not much more you need, I guess.
[01:15:00.670 --> 01:15:04.510] [SPACEROGUE]: I do make a lot of stuff that never ever sees the light of day.
[01:15:04.510 --> 01:15:10.910] [SPACEROGUE]: But, I mean, there are opportunities abound for anyone who wants to sort of, you know, get into it.
[01:15:11.010 --> 01:15:15.330] [SPACEROGUE]: And to think that the golden age of hacking is over, I think is, you know, a lot of poppycock.
[01:15:15.530 --> 01:15:16.410] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, I agree with that.
[01:15:16.490 --> 01:15:33.810] [EVILCORLEY]: But the thing is, the Maker Faire, the ones that I saw in Queens, in New York City, they basically illustrated that really well because you just had thousands of people, tens of thousands of people showing up, all interested in technology and all willing to learn, not filled with preconceived notions as to what hacking was about.
[01:15:37.930 --> 01:15:40.310] [EVILCORLEY]: The people who ran the Maker Faire certainly got it.
[01:15:40.430 --> 01:15:48.650] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was just, it was incredible to see just an endless number of kids just being enthusiastic about learning technology.
[01:15:48.970 --> 01:15:53.170] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was a real shame when they stopped having those.
[01:15:53.310 --> 01:15:56.350] [EVILCORLEY]: And I hope they come back someday because that really is the spirit.
[01:15:56.510 --> 01:15:59.190] [EVILCORLEY]: The hacker spirit was right there in those Maker Faires.
[01:15:59.750 --> 01:16:03.010] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, they didn't use the hacker, evil hacker word.
[01:16:03.550 --> 01:16:05.730] [SPACEROGUE]: And so people weren't scared away from it.
[01:16:05.830 --> 01:16:08.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, they, when we were there, they used it for us.
[01:16:08.110 --> 01:16:09.530] [EVILCORLEY]: They said, you know, these are hackers.
[01:16:09.730 --> 01:16:11.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And it was used in the right way.
[01:16:11.730 --> 01:16:16.970] [EVILCORLEY]: But, I mean, as far as calling themselves makers, that's perfectly fine.
[01:16:17.550 --> 01:16:22.010] [EVILCORLEY]: There's different ways of describing the enthusiasm that people have.
[01:16:22.170 --> 01:16:24.390] [EVILCORLEY]: And there was a lot of crossover.
[01:16:24.650 --> 01:16:32.410] [EVILCORLEY]: They were learning to solder tents where people would spend hours learning how to solder and just cracking security and things like that.
[01:16:32.530 --> 01:16:33.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Lockpicking was a big deal there.
[01:16:34.390 --> 01:16:35.530] [EVILCORLEY]: So I hope it returns someday.
[01:16:35.650 --> 01:16:35.950] [EVILCORLEY]: I really do.
[01:16:36.030 --> 01:16:39.390] [EVILCORLEY]: And I hope we see more hacker events.
[01:16:39.750 --> 01:16:42.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Have you continued going to hacker conferences?
[01:16:42.970 --> 01:16:45.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, I still go to as many conferences as I can.
[01:16:45.770 --> 01:16:47.390] [SPACEROGUE]: The last couple of years have been difficult.
[01:16:47.570 --> 01:16:48.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Absolutely.
[01:16:48.010 --> 01:16:53.650] [SPACEROGUE]: But I have been able to still participate in ShmooCon, which is fairly nearby for me in D.C.
[01:16:54.530 --> 01:16:56.710] [SPACEROGUE]: B-Sides Philly, I'm now in Philadelphia.
[01:16:56.710 --> 01:16:59.090] [SPACEROGUE]: I've moved out of Boston, so I'm down in Philadelphia now.
[01:16:59.430 --> 01:17:02.630] [SPACEROGUE]: So I try to do B-Sides Philly when I can, B-Sides Delaware.
[01:17:03.750 --> 01:17:09.090] [SPACEROGUE]: I haven't made it up to New York as much as I would like, but I know New York has a couple of good conferences as well.
[01:17:09.230 --> 01:17:10.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, we've heard of one called HOPE.
[01:17:11.810 --> 01:17:13.030] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, yes, there's HOPE, yes.
[01:17:13.070 --> 01:17:15.750] [EVILCORLEY]: We're at St. John's University now, so that's completely different.
[01:17:15.750 --> 01:17:17.310] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, I heard they tore down the old venue.
[01:17:17.530 --> 01:17:19.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, that was the only way to get us out of there.
[01:17:21.190 --> 01:17:25.470] [EVILCORLEY]: But now we're in a university setting instead of a hotel setting, and it's completely different.
[01:17:26.010 --> 01:17:30.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Basically, they're a lot more open to what hackers are all about, and things work, too.
[01:17:31.350 --> 01:17:31.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Imagine that.
[01:17:31.750 --> 01:17:32.170] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, that's always good.
[01:17:32.270 --> 01:17:33.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Technology that works.
[01:17:34.150 --> 01:17:34.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:17:34.890 --> 01:17:38.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Getting back to Congress, 20 years afterwards, you guys reassembled.
[01:17:38.950 --> 01:17:40.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Tell us something about that.
[01:17:40.730 --> 01:17:45.830] [SPACEROGUE]: So, yeah, the 20th anniversary, which was five years ago, we had ended up doing two events.
[01:17:46.350 --> 01:17:54.450] [SPACEROGUE]: One, we had a panel at DEFCON that year where we got, I think, five of us on stage of seven, which is pretty good.
[01:17:54.970 --> 01:17:57.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And we had a great moderator.
[01:17:59.170 --> 01:18:09.770] [SPACEROGUE]: And it was very well attended, and a lot of people asked some great questions, and I think it was a great thing to get us sort of all together again, which hadn't really happened.
[01:18:10.090 --> 01:18:13.390] [SPACEROGUE]: The other event that we did, we actually went back to Washington, D.C.
[01:18:13.830 --> 01:18:19.690] [SPACEROGUE]: It wasn't Congress, but it was in the Capitol building, in one of the Senate office buildings.
[01:18:20.070 --> 01:18:26.750] [SPACEROGUE]: And we did a Q&A and talked about the history and where we are today versus where we were then.
[01:18:27.050 --> 01:18:31.830] [SPACEROGUE]: And we had myself, Mudge, Weld, and Kingpin with Katie Moussouris moderating.
[01:18:32.330 --> 01:18:35.190] [SPACEROGUE]: And so, that went very well as well.
[01:18:35.250 --> 01:18:42.130] [SPACEROGUE]: I think there's video of that online somewhere, as well as the DEFCON talk as well, which is probably on somebody's YouTube channel someplace.
[01:18:42.930 --> 01:18:45.730] [EVILCORLEY]: And, of course, your original testimony, 1998.
[01:18:45.730 --> 01:18:48.610] [EVILCORLEY]: I saw that on Kingpin's YouTube page.
[01:18:48.990 --> 01:18:49.430] [SPACEROGUE]: Yes.
[01:18:49.610 --> 01:18:50.510] [EVILCORLEY]: So, that's available as well.
[01:18:50.510 --> 01:18:51.090] [EVILCORLEY]: I believe he has it hosted.
[01:18:51.430 --> 01:18:54.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Hey, we're going to open up phone lines if people want to call in.
[01:18:55.490 --> 01:18:57.390] [EVILCORLEY]: 802-321-4225.
[01:18:57.910 --> 01:18:59.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Ask a couple of questions of Space Rogue.
[01:18:59.830 --> 01:19:01.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Please, let's try to keep it on topic.
[01:19:01.950 --> 01:19:03.210] [EVILCORLEY]: And go ahead, Gila.
[01:19:03.530 --> 01:19:16.910] [GILADRAZEN]: I do have a question before our inevitable first caller calls about the Senate hearing because Rob did find that picture of you guys all at the table, which is fantastic.
[01:19:17.230 --> 01:19:21.350] [GILADRAZEN]: And my question is, did you get to keep the nameplates?
[01:19:23.810 --> 01:19:25.150] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, I don't think so.
[01:19:25.510 --> 01:19:34.710] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, because they are actually engraved nameplates, plastic nameplates that somebody somewhere in the Capitol building was tasked to make and actually engrave them.
[01:19:34.830 --> 01:19:36.190] [SPACEROGUE]: But I don't have mine.
[01:19:36.330 --> 01:19:37.630] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know if anybody else has theirs.
[01:19:37.890 --> 01:19:39.470] [SPACEROGUE]: But it's interesting that you bring up the picture.
[01:19:39.570 --> 01:19:40.930] [SPACEROGUE]: There's a little bit of a story about that.
[01:19:41.850 --> 01:19:45.310] [SPACEROGUE]: For those that don't know, there's a famous picture of us all sitting at the table.
[01:19:45.450 --> 01:19:46.250] [SPACEROGUE]: There's seven of us there.
[01:19:46.670 --> 01:19:52.950] [SPACEROGUE]: And we refer to it as the L0pht supper photo because Mudge is in the middle with the long hair.
[01:19:53.050 --> 01:19:53.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:19:53.470 --> 01:19:55.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And we're all kind of flanking him on the sides.
[01:19:55.370 --> 01:19:58.030] [SPACEROGUE]: And I wanted to use that photo on the cover of the book.
[01:19:58.890 --> 01:20:00.150] [SPACEROGUE]: But it's a copyrighted photo.
[01:20:00.150 --> 01:20:01.350] [SPACEROGUE]: Of course, I didn't take the photo.
[01:20:01.350 --> 01:20:05.570] [SPACEROGUE]: And I go to the stock photo place and I look up the price for using on a cover.
[01:20:05.710 --> 01:20:06.450] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's like $1,500.
[01:20:07.110 --> 01:20:08.010] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, I ain't got to talk.
[01:20:08.010 --> 01:20:09.110] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm not spending that kind of money.
[01:20:09.310 --> 01:20:14.330] [SPACEROGUE]: But I tell my book designer, I'm like, look, this is my idea for the cover, but I can't use this photo.
[01:20:14.350 --> 01:20:15.710] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know if you have any other ideas.
[01:20:16.050 --> 01:20:20.250] [SPACEROGUE]: And she's like, you know, I can just make a line art drawing of the photo and then you're fine.
[01:20:20.290 --> 01:20:21.190] [SPACEROGUE]: It's an original work.
[01:20:21.330 --> 01:20:21.970] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm like, really?
[01:20:22.430 --> 01:20:23.170] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:20:23.450 --> 01:20:28.050] [SPACEROGUE]: So that's why there's a line art drawing of the photo on the cover instead of the actual photo.
[01:20:28.910 --> 01:20:29.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:20:30.050 --> 01:20:30.930] [EVILCORLEY]: That's pretty amazing.
[01:20:31.450 --> 01:20:38.770] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, Space Rogue, you mentioned the testimony that I had, whatever year that was, that there was video.
[01:20:38.850 --> 01:20:41.230] [EVILCORLEY]: I've never even known that there was video of that.
[01:20:41.330 --> 01:20:43.230] [EVILCORLEY]: So if that really exists, please let me know.
[01:20:43.410 --> 01:20:43.990] [EVILCORLEY]: And if you can find it.
[01:20:43.990 --> 01:20:44.890] [SPACEROGUE]: I will look for it again.
[01:20:45.110 --> 01:20:49.990] [SPACEROGUE]: I know, I swear I saw it because you were wearing a American flag bandana.
[01:20:50.230 --> 01:20:50.850] [EVILCORLEY]: I was?
[01:20:51.530 --> 01:20:51.890] [SPACEROGUE]: Yes.
[01:20:52.030 --> 01:20:52.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Does that sound like me?
[01:20:52.950 --> 01:20:53.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:20:53.410 --> 01:20:53.610] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:20:54.310 --> 01:20:55.650] [EVILCORLEY]: To Congress I did that?
[01:20:56.290 --> 01:20:56.690] [SPACEROGUE]: Yes.
[01:20:56.930 --> 01:20:57.390] [EVILCORLEY]: I had guts.
[01:20:57.610 --> 01:20:57.850] [SPACEROGUE]: It's a t-shirt.
[01:20:58.050 --> 01:20:58.650] [SPACEROGUE]: A bandana.
[01:20:59.430 --> 01:20:59.790] [SPACEROGUE]: Okay.
[01:20:59.790 --> 01:21:00.670] [SPACEROGUE]: It wasn't a suit.
[01:21:00.790 --> 01:21:01.210] [SPACEROGUE]: I know that.
[01:21:01.430 --> 01:21:02.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, that's true.
[01:21:02.390 --> 01:21:03.530] [SPACEROGUE]: I'll look for the video again.
[01:21:03.870 --> 01:21:05.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm sure, I know I've seen it.
[01:21:05.750 --> 01:21:06.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I just don't know where it is.
[01:21:06.790 --> 01:21:07.030] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:21:07.150 --> 01:21:10.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Because there's this thing called the Mandela effect, you know, where people swear they were somewhere.
[01:21:10.970 --> 01:21:14.890] [EVILCORLEY]: People think Mandela died like in the 1990s when actually he died recently.
[01:21:15.350 --> 01:21:16.670] [EVILCORLEY]: But a lot of people think that.
[01:21:16.810 --> 01:21:17.710] [EVILCORLEY]: It's really kind of weird.
[01:21:17.750 --> 01:21:19.590] [EVILCORLEY]: And I didn't think there were any cameras in that room.
[01:21:19.730 --> 01:21:20.850] [EVILCORLEY]: So I'd love to see that.
[01:21:20.850 --> 01:21:23.210] [SPACEROGUE]: Maybe it is the Mandela effect.
[01:21:23.230 --> 01:21:24.270] [SPACEROGUE]: I know you got me questioning it.
[01:21:24.270 --> 01:21:26.170] [EVILCORLEY]: It sounds interesting, whatever it was.
[01:21:26.670 --> 01:21:26.950] [SPACEROGUE]: All right.
[01:21:27.050 --> 01:21:28.310] [SPACEROGUE]: I will look for it for you.
[01:21:28.610 --> 01:21:28.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:21:29.130 --> 01:21:30.030] [EVILCORLEY]: Are we going to take this call?
[01:21:31.090 --> 01:21:35.870] [EVILCORLEY]: I should warn you, some of our callers have a tendency to wander off topic.
[01:21:36.210 --> 01:21:37.530] [EVILCORLEY]: And hopefully that's not the case here.
[01:21:37.610 --> 01:21:39.230] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, some of them like to be first, too.
[01:21:39.490 --> 01:21:39.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:21:41.570 --> 01:21:42.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Good evening.
[01:21:42.330 --> 01:21:43.310] [EVILCORLEY]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:21:44.310 --> 01:21:45.110] [REBEL_RICH]: Yes, Emmanuel.
[01:21:45.590 --> 01:21:46.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Let me just stop you right there.
[01:21:47.110 --> 01:21:47.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Hold on a second.
[01:21:48.430 --> 01:21:54.370] [EVILCORLEY]: And let me tell you, Space Rogue, this is Rebel, who is always the first caller, has been since the 1990s.
[01:21:54.390 --> 01:21:57.270] [EVILCORLEY]: So I guess it's appropriate that he's the first caller now.
[01:21:57.650 --> 01:22:01.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Rebel, if I might ask you to please try and keep things on topic, even though...
[01:22:01.070 --> 01:22:03.870] [REBEL_RICH]: Yeah, I remember, I remember hearing about the L0pht.
[01:22:03.910 --> 01:22:11.150] [REBEL_RICH]: I remember, you know, you know, seeing, I never really were, went to their site or anything, but I did, I have heard of them.
[01:22:11.470 --> 01:22:28.830] [REBEL_RICH]: But anyway, being that you're talking to people from the 1990s, remember computer, I'm going to ask this question to the L0pht people, remember computer terminals, like, you know, you know, computer, like colleges had them and like their libraries and like different entities.
[01:22:29.270 --> 01:22:37.490] [REBEL_RICH]: You know, I remember in college, they had Digital Equipment Corporation computer mainframes and they had VT, was it 230 or...
[01:22:37.490 --> 01:22:39.310] [SPACEROGUE]: VT 220s is what I used.
[01:22:39.970 --> 01:22:40.270] [REBEL_RICH]: 220.
[01:22:40.470 --> 01:22:42.130] [REBEL_RICH]: I think we had the later version.
[01:22:42.450 --> 01:22:45.930] [REBEL_RICH]: But have you ever heard of a computer company called Informer?
[01:22:46.130 --> 01:22:47.210] [REBEL_RICH]: They're from like the 1970s.
[01:22:47.210 --> 01:22:50.050] [REBEL_RICH]: I think they're from like 1979 or 1970s.
[01:22:50.050 --> 01:22:51.690] [SPACEROGUE]: I am not familiar with Informer.
[01:22:51.770 --> 01:22:55.930] [SPACEROGUE]: I used VT 110s, VT 220s from DEC and Wyse terminals.
[01:22:56.150 --> 01:22:58.130] [SPACEROGUE]: And I don't remember the model numbers of the Wyse terminals.
[01:22:58.250 --> 01:23:00.550] [REBEL_RICH]: I think the Informer are like the precursor to that.
[01:23:00.710 --> 01:23:06.570] [REBEL_RICH]: They were, they were, they were from California, but they, I think they went out of business in the 1990s.
[01:23:07.010 --> 01:23:09.030] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, I'm not familiar with them at all.
[01:23:11.190 --> 01:23:12.330] [REBEL_RICH]: Well, all right.
[01:23:12.490 --> 01:23:19.510] [REBEL_RICH]: Now, let me mention that remember in the 1990s, we never heard commercials in supermarkets.
[01:23:22.190 --> 01:23:24.650] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, we had Muzak in supermarkets.
[01:23:24.650 --> 01:23:27.030] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't remember, I don't remember hearing commercials.
[01:23:27.030 --> 01:23:30.890] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't think I have commercials in my supermarket today, but I'm sure some supermarkets do.
[01:23:31.010 --> 01:23:31.830] [EVILCORLEY]: You have announcements.
[01:23:32.290 --> 01:23:32.810] [EVILCORLEY]: You have announcements.
[01:23:32.810 --> 01:23:33.750] [SPACEROGUE]: You have announcements, yeah.
[01:23:34.010 --> 01:23:35.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Like, you know, breakage in aisle three.
[01:23:35.810 --> 01:23:37.270] [EVILCORLEY]: That's sort of like a commercial, I guess.
[01:23:37.370 --> 01:23:38.830] [REBEL_RICH]: Well, yeah, but that's not a commercial.
[01:23:39.010 --> 01:23:43.430] [REBEL_RICH]: But when you hear the commercials on TV, you now hear them in the supermarket.
[01:23:43.990 --> 01:23:45.390] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, without the radio, of course.
[01:23:45.390 --> 01:23:46.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, there's commercials everywhere.
[01:23:46.550 --> 01:23:48.030] [EVILCORLEY]: They're in movie theaters now, too.
[01:23:48.370 --> 01:23:49.250] [EVILCORLEY]: So, yeah, that's...
[01:23:49.250 --> 01:23:51.450] [REBEL_RICH]: I was in a restaurant and I heard commercials.
[01:23:52.410 --> 01:23:52.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Really?
[01:23:53.410 --> 01:23:56.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, that's kind of weird if you're actually at a table and you're hearing commercials.
[01:23:56.990 --> 01:23:59.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Are you sure somebody wasn't playing something?
[01:24:01.070 --> 01:24:06.150] [SPACEROGUE]: You can always put in your headphones and listen to your iPhone and listen to Off The Hook on a podcast.
[01:24:06.310 --> 01:24:07.050] [EVILCORLEY]: That's what he does.
[01:24:07.170 --> 01:24:07.590] [EVILCORLEY]: He does that.
[01:24:08.610 --> 01:24:08.870] [REBEL_RICH]: Yeah.
[01:24:09.070 --> 01:24:11.230] [REBEL_RICH]: Well, let me demonstrate the 225.
[01:24:11.230 --> 01:24:16.170] [REBEL_RICH]: Let me remember when I told you I was going to demonstrate, what, 225-9901...
[01:24:16.170 --> 01:24:17.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Didn't we ask you not to?
[01:24:17.970 --> 01:24:18.690] [EVILCORLEY]: All right, you know what?
[01:24:18.930 --> 01:24:19.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Go ahead.
[01:24:19.910 --> 01:24:20.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Please do it quickly.
[01:24:21.110 --> 01:24:21.170] [REBEL_RICH]: One moment, sir.
[01:24:21.290 --> 01:24:21.950] [REBEL_RICH]: Let me connect you.
[01:24:22.050 --> 01:24:22.650] [REBEL_RICH]: One moment, sir.
[01:24:22.730 --> 01:24:23.530] [EVILCORLEY]: This is what happens.
[01:24:23.750 --> 01:24:24.830] [EVILCORLEY]: We have no control.
[01:24:25.950 --> 01:24:27.270] [EVILCORLEY]: And he puts us on hold.
[01:24:27.550 --> 01:24:28.850] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the thing he does.
[01:24:29.090 --> 01:24:29.990] [REBEL_RICH]: I'm going to put you on hold.
[01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:37.690] [SPEAKER_06]: Although your call cannot be completed to the number you dialed, I can simply help you find similar businesses in the area for no additional charge.
[01:24:38.030 --> 01:24:38.950] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm searching now.
[01:24:38.950 --> 01:24:41.930] [REBEL_RICH]: That's what 225-9901 does now.
[01:24:43.530 --> 01:24:45.390] [REBEL_RICH]: But why did you call that number?
[01:24:48.850 --> 01:24:52.430] [REBEL_RICH]: Because 225-9901 used to tell you what central office it is.
[01:24:52.630 --> 01:24:52.790] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:24:52.890 --> 01:24:56.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Now it tries to connect you with similar businesses.
[01:24:56.490 --> 01:24:58.850] [EVILCORLEY]: But what business were you looking for to start with?
[01:24:59.190 --> 01:25:00.650] [REBEL_RICH]: I wasn't looking for a business.
[01:25:00.870 --> 01:25:02.970] [EVILCORLEY]: So what does it connect you to then?
[01:25:03.750 --> 01:25:04.710] [REBEL_RICH]: It didn't connect...
[01:25:04.710 --> 01:25:05.110] [REBEL_RICH]: Well, all right.
[01:25:05.570 --> 01:25:11.570] [REBEL_RICH]: Well, 225, the Bayside Queen Central Office has 225-229-428 and all.
[01:25:11.750 --> 01:25:16.290] [REBEL_RICH]: But if you call 229-9901, it says, welcome to the Bayside Central Office.
[01:25:16.310 --> 01:25:16.550] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:25:16.670 --> 01:25:17.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Like they used to say.
[01:25:18.010 --> 01:25:18.190] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:25:18.230 --> 01:25:22.070] [EVILCORLEY]: So my question to you then is, it doesn't give you any information?
[01:25:22.230 --> 01:25:22.870] [EVILCORLEY]: It just says that?
[01:25:23.890 --> 01:25:34.810] [REBEL_RICH]: It says that, but it says, it says, it does connect you with, it doesn't connect you with anything, but let's just hear it again.
[01:25:35.230 --> 01:25:39.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, but Rebel, what I'm trying to tell you is, I think what you're calling is just the recording.
[01:25:39.550 --> 01:25:45.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Like, you know, there used to be all kinds of numbers you'd call and one would say, please insert 25 cents.
[01:25:45.250 --> 01:25:50.930] [EVILCORLEY]: It didn't actually want you to insert 25 cents, but that's, that's the number they kept that recording at for some reason.
[01:25:51.110 --> 01:25:52.030] [EVILCORLEY]: So I think that's what you're...
[01:25:52.030 --> 01:25:54.450] [REBEL_RICH]: Yeah, but that's not a phone company recording.
[01:25:54.630 --> 01:25:56.250] [REBEL_RICH]: It doesn't sound like a phone company recording.
[01:25:56.250 --> 01:25:58.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, I'm not saying it belongs to the phone company.
[01:25:58.130 --> 01:26:00.130] [EVILCORLEY]: It belongs to somebody and they're just keeping that recording there.
[01:26:00.970 --> 01:26:02.070] [EVILCORLEY]: It doesn't actually do anything.
[01:26:02.290 --> 01:26:03.390] [REBEL_RICH]: But why are 9901?
[01:26:03.510 --> 01:26:05.670] [REBEL_RICH]: Maybe because 9901, I don't know.
[01:26:05.810 --> 01:26:18.090] [EVILCORLEY]: I've, I've called, uh, Space Rogue for, in case you don't know, a 9901 suffix in New York oftentimes identifies the central office of the phone company and tells you what other exchanges are linked to that particular exchange.
[01:26:18.090 --> 01:26:22.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, but lately I've noticed that 9901 is used for almost anything.
[01:26:22.390 --> 01:26:24.510] [EVILCORLEY]: In fact, I've even called people at 9901.
[01:26:24.510 --> 01:26:26.790] [EVILCORLEY]: So it's not necessarily what it used to be.
[01:26:27.290 --> 01:26:28.030] [EVILCORLEY]: Just like...
[01:26:28.030 --> 01:26:36.890] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, I would assume they would, it was historically for phone company workers to figure out what exchange went to one CEO, but phone company workers don't need that number anymore because they can just look it up.
[01:26:37.030 --> 01:26:38.170] [SPACEROGUE]: So they don't need to call.
[01:26:38.370 --> 01:26:41.650] [SPACEROGUE]: So what else are you going to use the number for if the phone company doesn't need it?
[01:26:41.650 --> 01:26:42.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, they're just going to give it out.
[01:26:42.970 --> 01:26:44.330] [SPACEROGUE]: They just repurpose it to something else.
[01:26:44.350 --> 01:26:45.310] [EVILCORLEY]: It's a good sounding number.
[01:26:46.890 --> 01:26:49.410] [EVILCORLEY]: 9970 used to be, 9970 used to be all busy.
[01:26:49.690 --> 01:26:51.050] [EVILCORLEY]: 9971 used to be fast busy.
[01:26:51.850 --> 01:26:53.150] [EVILCORLEY]: 9979 was a sweep tone.
[01:26:53.310 --> 01:26:54.830] [EVILCORLEY]: There were all kinds of cool numbers.
[01:26:55.730 --> 01:26:59.210] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's all digital now, so the phone company workers don't need those numbers anymore.
[01:26:59.310 --> 01:26:59.690] [EVILCORLEY]: That's true.
[01:26:59.950 --> 01:27:00.230] [EVILCORLEY]: That's true.
[01:27:00.390 --> 01:27:05.510] [KYLEDROSDK]: Down to like quality of service and less, like they're, they could do it with, uh, instruments and so forth.
[01:27:06.250 --> 01:27:08.630] [KYLEDROSDK]: They're less reliant on, on communicating.
[01:27:08.850 --> 01:27:09.610] [EVILCORLEY]: Rebel, what else you got?
[01:27:09.690 --> 01:27:10.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Now we're going to move on.
[01:27:10.290 --> 01:27:20.850] [REBEL_RICH]: Then the 917 exchange area code used to be just for like cellular phones and, and now it's, now it's, you know, 718 could be a cell phone.
[01:27:21.110 --> 01:27:22.270] [REBEL_RICH]: 917 could be.
[01:27:22.870 --> 01:27:25.430] [EVILCORLEY]: I've had 212 cell phone numbers.
[01:27:25.730 --> 01:27:25.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:27:26.550 --> 01:27:27.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Anything's possible.
[01:27:27.470 --> 01:27:28.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Area codes don't mean anything anymore.
[01:27:29.170 --> 01:27:35.950] [EVILCORLEY]: It's sad because I, I like being able to identify where things are coming from, but that's just a decision that was made.
[01:27:36.750 --> 01:27:37.250] [REBEL_RICH]: Okay.
[01:27:37.310 --> 01:27:38.250] [REBEL_RICH]: Hold on for long distance.
[01:27:41.850 --> 01:27:43.690] [REBEL_RICH]: You know, they don't even do that anymore.
[01:27:43.970 --> 01:27:45.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Because there is no long distance.
[01:27:46.230 --> 01:27:46.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Everything's local.
[01:27:47.130 --> 01:27:47.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:27:47.890 --> 01:27:48.890] [REBEL_RICH]: No, no, there is.
[01:27:49.110 --> 01:27:53.210] [REBEL_RICH]: But, uh, when you ask the AT.., the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, what do they call that?
[01:27:53.290 --> 01:27:54.710] [REBEL_RICH]: You don't even know the name of the phone company.
[01:27:55.810 --> 01:27:56.170] [KYLEDROSDK]: Verizon.
[01:27:56.350 --> 01:27:59.310] [REBEL_RICH]: Can you ask me a zero operator for long distance?
[01:27:59.310 --> 01:28:03.770] [REBEL_RICH]: And she said, um, yeah, you'll have to call information to find out your long distance.
[01:28:04.070 --> 01:28:06.210] [REBEL_RICH]: They used to continue with the long distance carrier
[01:28:06.350 --> 01:28:07.010] [REBEL_RICH]: Now they don't anymore.
[01:28:07.430 --> 01:28:13.190] [EVILCORLEY]: You know what's, what's crazy is that I still get Bell Atlantic recordings sometimes.
[01:28:13.190 --> 01:28:21.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Like if I, if I get, if I get a busy, uh, signal and, uh, it wants me to, uh, use their service where it calls me back, it says Bell Atlantic will call you back.
[01:28:22.290 --> 01:28:24.870] [EVILCORLEY]: And it still says that.
[01:28:25.070 --> 01:28:28.850] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's what two phone companies ago, they lost track of the recording, I guess.
[01:28:29.390 --> 01:28:30.810] [EVILCORLEY]: But you can find things like that.
[01:28:31.990 --> 01:28:32.430] [REBEL_RICH]: Yeah.
[01:28:32.570 --> 01:28:34.790] [REBEL_RICH]: When you call information, may I have information?
[01:28:35.150 --> 01:28:37.170] [REBEL_RICH]: And she said, oh, you'll have to dial 411.
[01:28:37.510 --> 01:28:39.130] [REBEL_RICH]: They don't even connect you with things anymore.
[01:28:39.470 --> 01:28:41.630] [REBEL_RICH]: Unless you ask to be connected with a phone number.
[01:28:41.710 --> 01:28:43.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Sign of our times, which is not connected anymore.
[01:28:44.270 --> 01:28:45.830] [REBEL_RICH]: Um, L0pht people, L0pht people.
[01:28:45.950 --> 01:28:48.190] [REBEL_RICH]: Do you remember when zero operators used to?
[01:28:48.610 --> 01:28:49.290] [REBEL_RICH]: Things like that.
[01:28:49.410 --> 01:28:51.970] [REBEL_RICH]: By the way, do you know anything about TOPS, how TOPS works?
[01:28:52.510 --> 01:28:54.430] [SPACEROGUE]: Like not, not modern ones.
[01:28:54.570 --> 01:28:56.530] [REBEL_RICH]: No, but I don't know.
[01:28:56.810 --> 01:28:58.250] [REBEL_RICH]: I mean, everything's digital, but I'm talking about them.
[01:28:58.430 --> 01:28:58.910] [REBEL_RICH]: Everything's digital.
[01:28:59.110 --> 01:28:59.290] [REBEL_RICH]: Yeah.
[01:28:59.910 --> 01:29:00.130] [REBEL_RICH]: Yeah.
[01:29:01.270 --> 01:29:05.070] [REBEL_RICH]: Like remember TSPS and then, then they had terminals and all this.
[01:29:05.290 --> 01:29:05.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[01:29:05.750 --> 01:29:05.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Mm-hmm.
[01:29:06.890 --> 01:29:09.170] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, Rebel, it was a pleasure as always.
[01:29:09.510 --> 01:29:10.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, please, uh, stay in touch.
[01:29:11.170 --> 01:29:15.870] [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to open up the phone lines for more people and, um, and, um, um, take care.
[01:29:18.790 --> 01:29:20.550] [EVILCORLEY]: 802-321-4225.
[01:29:20.550 --> 01:29:22.330] [EVILCORLEY]: That's 802-321-HACK.
[01:29:22.510 --> 01:29:25.070] [EVILCORLEY]: We have Space Rogue here from the L0pht.
[01:29:25.410 --> 01:29:28.090] [EVILCORLEY]: It's still technically from the L0pht, not formerly of the L0pht.
[01:29:28.230 --> 01:29:28.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:29:28.510 --> 01:29:29.190] [EVILCORLEY]: It's the L0pht.
[01:29:29.790 --> 01:29:31.530] [SPACEROGUE]: Either way, the L0pht is former, not me.
[01:29:31.670 --> 01:29:31.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:29:32.330 --> 01:29:32.890] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm still here.
[01:29:32.890 --> 01:29:36.650] [EVILCORLEY]: You guys existed before hackerspaces as a concept existed.
[01:29:36.910 --> 01:29:37.570] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, pretty much.
[01:29:37.710 --> 01:29:39.870] [SPACEROGUE]: We were one of the very first, if not the first hackerspace.
[01:29:40.010 --> 01:29:40.370] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:29:40.610 --> 01:29:40.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[01:29:40.970 --> 01:29:44.470] [EVILCORLEY]: I, I remember, um, at the time, I think there was New Hack City in Boston.
[01:29:44.950 --> 01:29:46.190] [SPACEROGUE]: There was New Hack City.
[01:29:46.510 --> 01:29:47.390] [SPACEROGUE]: There was Sin House.
[01:29:47.670 --> 01:29:53.690] [SPACEROGUE]: There was a lot of different, uh, houses where people kind of lived and were kind of hacker-ish.
[01:29:53.830 --> 01:29:54.130] [SPACEROGUE]: Mm-hmm.
[01:29:54.210 --> 01:29:56.570] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, but I wouldn't call them hackerspaces.
[01:29:57.010 --> 01:30:01.870] [SPACEROGUE]: I think there was a difference there between a shared living's quarters and what a hackerspace is.
[01:30:01.870 --> 01:30:02.370] [SPACEROGUE]: Right, exactly.
[01:30:02.370 --> 01:30:03.850] [SPACEROGUE]: But there was, you know, a lot of crossover, too.
[01:30:04.630 --> 01:30:04.890] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh-huh.
[01:30:05.710 --> 01:30:07.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, it just, it was an amazing environment.
[01:30:08.150 --> 01:30:08.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, it was unique.
[01:30:09.210 --> 01:30:09.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Nobody else had that.
[01:30:10.150 --> 01:30:13.530] [EVILCORLEY]: I think it just inspired so many other people to try something similar.
[01:30:14.090 --> 01:30:18.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, are you aware of anything like this in Boston now, or, um...
[01:30:18.230 --> 01:30:22.950] [SPACEROGUE]: There, there is a, a couple of, uh, hackerspaces in Boston now.
[01:30:23.010 --> 01:30:27.090] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know if they really want their name mentioned in public, but, uh, uh, they do exist.
[01:30:27.230 --> 01:30:34.090] [SPACEROGUE]: Some of the old folks are there and some new folks, um, in, in at least two different, uh, organizations I know of, uh, in Boston.
[01:30:34.110 --> 01:30:42.550] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm sure there are some, there's one here in Philadelphia called Hive 76, and there's one called the, the Hacktory, um, which are sort of a hacker slash makerspaces.
[01:30:42.790 --> 01:30:45.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and I'm sure there are ones in other cities as well.
[01:30:46.750 --> 01:30:47.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:30:47.190 --> 01:30:49.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, and other countries all around the world.
[01:30:50.130 --> 01:30:50.450] [SPACEROGUE]: Yes.
[01:30:50.670 --> 01:30:55.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Have you, have you guys had much, um, contact with, uh, international, uh, hacker community?
[01:30:55.590 --> 01:31:02.910] [SPACEROGUE]: We did, uh, you know, as L0pht, uh, there was, uh, uh, XS4ALL out of the Netherlands and, and of course, Chaos in, in Europe.
[01:31:02.910 --> 01:31:08.870] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and, uh, there was Garoa Hacker Club in Brazil, I think.
[01:31:08.970 --> 01:31:10.070] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm going to get these countries wrong.
[01:31:10.190 --> 01:31:10.590] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm sorry.
[01:31:11.030 --> 01:31:12.950] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, and a couple other ones scattered around the world.
[01:31:13.110 --> 01:31:21.130] [SPACEROGUE]: But, uh, and since then, not as much, uh, recently, mostly because I've been sort of out of touch as opposed to them not existing.
[01:31:21.530 --> 01:31:21.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:31:23.090 --> 01:31:23.690] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:31:23.950 --> 01:31:25.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, 802-321-4225.
[01:31:25.610 --> 01:31:26.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, any calls, Kyle?
[01:31:27.030 --> 01:31:27.710] [KYLEDROSDK]: Uh, no.
[01:31:27.890 --> 01:31:28.710] [KYLEDROSDK]: Lines are open.
[01:31:28.810 --> 01:31:29.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Lines are wide open.
[01:31:29.710 --> 01:31:29.850] [KYLEDROSDK]: Okay.
[01:31:29.970 --> 01:31:30.910] [KYLEDROSDK]: Operators are standing by.
[01:31:30.910 --> 01:31:31.210] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:31:31.290 --> 01:31:35.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Sometimes, sometimes we have to beg for calls, just for people to, uh, call in and, uh, ask questions.
[01:31:35.910 --> 01:31:37.390] [KYLEDROSDK]: Well, there's a little delay after you give the phone.
[01:31:37.510 --> 01:31:38.270] [EVILCORLEY]: And there's also a delay.
[01:31:38.630 --> 01:31:48.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Um, but now, uh, to get back to the, um, uh, the reunion, uh, um, meeting in, uh, in the congressional bill, it wasn't a, a, a Congress, uh, thing.
[01:31:49.010 --> 01:31:51.730] [EVILCORLEY]: It was, um, something that happened in Washington, D.C.
[01:31:52.230 --> 01:31:57.050] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, I forget the name of the group, uh, that sponsored it, like the Cyber Caucus or something.
[01:31:57.990 --> 01:31:59.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Congressional Internet Caucus Academy.
[01:32:00.170 --> 01:32:00.630] [SPACEROGUE]: There you go.
[01:32:00.630 --> 01:32:02.670] [EVILCORLEY]: And the Senate Cybersecurity Caucus.
[01:32:02.930 --> 01:32:04.550] [SPACEROGUE]: It's great to have notes in front of you, huh?
[01:32:06.330 --> 01:32:07.690] [EVILCORLEY]: I'd never heard of those groups before.
[01:32:07.790 --> 01:32:07.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:32:07.970 --> 01:32:08.370] [EVILCORLEY]: That's amazing.
[01:32:08.890 --> 01:32:09.190] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[01:32:09.290 --> 01:32:10.270] [SPACEROGUE]: So they sponsored it.
[01:32:10.430 --> 01:32:17.230] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, they got a room, uh, in the, in the, in one of the office buildings and, uh, Mudge and I and Weld and Kingpin were there.
[01:32:17.470 --> 01:32:23.050] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, we had the, the lovely Katie Moussouris who moderated for us and we had a room of maybe 50, 75 people.
[01:32:23.370 --> 01:32:24.190] [SPACEROGUE]: It was also filmed.
[01:32:24.330 --> 01:32:24.950] [SPACEROGUE]: It's up on YouTube.
[01:32:24.950 --> 01:32:39.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, I don't think it's as, as interesting as the original testimony personally, but, uh, we both had a, we all had a few things to say about, uh, then and how things had progressed into, to now or now, uh, five years ago.
[01:32:39.690 --> 01:32:42.550] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, uh, for, and that's what we did for the 20th anniversary.
[01:32:42.550 --> 01:32:49.350] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, one thing that Mudge said that really struck me was, uh, he was talking about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, uh, saying how it was used selectively.
[01:32:49.510 --> 01:33:01.490] [EVILCORLEY]: It's used unevenly, uh, saying that the anti-circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, uh, which is intended to stop digital intellectual property infringement also suppresses security research.
[01:33:01.790 --> 01:33:05.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, and, uh, Kingpin, uh, chimed in, we live in a very litigious society.
[01:33:06.110 --> 01:33:16.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, the risk of lawsuits has made security research in some ways, uh, riskier than it was in 1998 when every member of L0pht felt compelled to testify under their hacker handles instead of their real names.
[01:33:16.210 --> 01:33:19.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, he said, now that I have kids and I don't want to go to jail, I'm very nervous.
[01:33:19.790 --> 01:33:32.770] [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that, that, uh, that kind of, uh, is a feeling many people have because of all these, um, um, uh, laws, uh, and rules that are in effect now made by people who don't necessarily understand the technology they're regulating.
[01:33:33.150 --> 01:33:35.610] [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of good things are, are, are quelled.
[01:33:37.030 --> 01:33:37.430] [SPACEROGUE]: Absolutely.
[01:33:37.830 --> 01:33:40.550] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, I mean, you can look at numerous cases.
[01:33:40.570 --> 01:33:49.630] [SPACEROGUE]: Under the CFAA where, uh, people were threatened with large sentences of, for ostensibly very minor crimes.
[01:33:49.870 --> 01:34:00.090] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, DMCA is another sledgehammer that's used, uh, to great effect by those that, uh, hold the copyright and, uh, to, against those who don't.
[01:34:00.090 --> 01:34:04.310] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and so, and a lot of these cases, sometimes these laws are tweaked over time.
[01:34:04.450 --> 01:34:08.210] [SPACEROGUE]: CFAA is one of those that's had a lot of minor changes to it over the years.
[01:34:08.210 --> 01:34:22.990] [SPACEROGUE]: And so it's not as bad as it was, uh, but, uh, the CFAA specifically, uh, is because of the guidance out of the DOJ that says, you know, we can selectively prosecute this or that, or we should not look at this so strongly, or we look at this stronger,
[01:34:23.030 --> 01:34:27.010] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, but that changes with every administration, uh, or even less.
[01:34:27.010 --> 01:34:36.890] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, so those guidances, uh, can be, uh, come down again as different guidance and the CFAA becomes a much bigger threat than it is right now today.
[01:34:37.390 --> 01:34:46.950] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and so we, there's still a lot of effort underway to actually change the wording of the laws so that they become a little bit more clear and not as ambiguous as they currently are.
[01:34:46.950 --> 01:35:08.010] [KYLEDROSDK]: Uh, because would you be able to say like the, uh, fall-on is that there are gaps then for periods when different types of activities for, for security and, and, um, uh, people looking into this stuff, they, they periods where people were more reluctant and it sort of ebbs and flows and then wouldn't it have that kind of impact in, in a commercial scenario?
[01:35:09.550 --> 01:35:11.850] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, there is an ebb and flow to the laws.
[01:35:11.970 --> 01:35:12.350] [SPACEROGUE]: Absolutely.
[01:35:12.750 --> 01:35:23.770] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, because of the, uh, again, because of the ambiguity and the wording, uh, and the selectiveness in the prosecutions, uh, and who can and cannot take advantage of, of some of those laws.
[01:35:23.910 --> 01:35:39.830] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and so because we have the Department of Justice coming down and saying, okay, we're not going to look at, uh, CFAA violations this strongly this year, uh, next year, they may come down and say, okay, we're really going to step on, on, on this aspect of the law and really prosecute this section.
[01:35:40.510 --> 01:35:47.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, unfortunately the laws are written, these particular laws, especially, uh, I mean, the CFAA was originally written in 1986.
[01:35:47.810 --> 01:35:51.430] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, it's been, uh, I think it actually may be even older than that.
[01:35:51.890 --> 01:35:55.730] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, uh, and it has been modified since then.
[01:35:55.890 --> 01:36:01.030] [SPACEROGUE]: There has been tweaks to it, but it's still, a lot of terms are not, uh, defined very well.
[01:36:01.330 --> 01:36:02.190] [SPACEROGUE]: Unauthorized access.
[01:36:02.430 --> 01:36:04.010] [SPACEROGUE]: What actually is authorized?
[01:36:04.010 --> 01:36:11.270] [SPACEROGUE]: If I visit a webpage, have I been authorized, uh, or do I need specific permission from the company to visit their webpage?
[01:36:11.610 --> 01:36:14.710] [SPACEROGUE]: That isn't really defined in the law and it isn't defined anywhere else.
[01:36:14.930 --> 01:36:17.090] [SPACEROGUE]: What is an access control device?
[01:36:17.430 --> 01:36:19.630] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, I'm sure, well, I won't go there.
[01:36:19.850 --> 01:36:22.470] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, so those are, you know where I was going to go.
[01:36:22.490 --> 01:36:22.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[01:36:22.850 --> 01:36:24.310] [SPACEROGUE]: You know, being in Philly and all that.
[01:36:24.390 --> 01:36:28.670] [SPACEROGUE]: But anyway, so, uh, those are parts of the law that are not, uh, adequately defined.
[01:36:28.670 --> 01:36:35.210] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, and so those definitions can, uh, be at the whim of the prosecutor to figure out what's going to happen there.
[01:36:35.730 --> 01:36:48.650] [SPACEROGUE]: Um, so, you know, this is one of the reasons why I'm sort of involved in policy and try to meet with lawmakers and educate them and, and, and talk to them and sort of say, this is what's happening out here on my side of the world, uh, with these laws and, and why we need to make some changes or modify the wording in them.
[01:36:53.510 --> 01:36:54.510] [EVILCORLEY]: We have a phone call.
[01:36:54.750 --> 01:36:55.190] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, we do.
[01:36:55.490 --> 01:36:56.110] [EVILCORLEY]: And good evening.
[01:36:56.270 --> 01:36:57.290] [EVILCORLEY]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:36:58.670 --> 01:36:59.510] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Hi there, guys.
[01:36:59.890 --> 01:37:00.430] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Hey, how's it going?
[01:37:00.670 --> 01:37:03.850] [JOHNNYFUSN]: And, and, and the one lady.
[01:37:05.850 --> 01:37:06.910] [JOHNNYFUSN]: It's good to talk to you.
[01:37:06.970 --> 01:37:08.270] [JOHNNYFUSN]: This is Johnny Fusion again.
[01:37:08.690 --> 01:37:09.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, hey, how are you doing?
[01:37:09.630 --> 01:37:09.830] [KYLEDROSDK]: Welcome.
[01:37:11.130 --> 01:37:12.430] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Well, I've been better.
[01:37:12.610 --> 01:37:15.590] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I'm in the hospital, but, you know, I'm tuning in.
[01:37:15.970 --> 01:37:17.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
[01:37:19.230 --> 01:37:20.730] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Yeah, it's been a rough month.
[01:37:20.730 --> 01:37:26.230] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I caught COVID at the beginning of the month, recovered from that, and now I got the norovirus.
[01:37:26.810 --> 01:37:27.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, boy.
[01:37:29.390 --> 01:37:29.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Well...
[01:37:29.870 --> 01:37:37.350] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Yeah, well, you know, because I am on those transplant meds, I'm immunocompromised, so it's really easy for me to catch stuff.
[01:37:37.570 --> 01:37:37.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh-huh.
[01:37:38.010 --> 01:37:39.210] [JOHNNYFUSN]: And, yeah.
[01:37:40.150 --> 01:37:43.570] [EVILCORLEY]: And sometimes hospitals are, are bad places for that, too.
[01:37:43.870 --> 01:37:45.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Uh, hopefully you're in a good one.
[01:37:45.910 --> 01:37:51.430] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Well, you know, I'm still, yeah, I'm still staying in a nursing facility, and that's probably where I pick these things up.
[01:37:51.650 --> 01:37:51.730] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Uh-huh.
[01:37:52.170 --> 01:37:52.610] [EVILCORLEY]: I see.
[01:37:53.310 --> 01:37:56.150] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you sound good if that's any, any consolation.
[01:37:57.290 --> 01:38:04.690] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Well, I'm, I'm a bit better today, you know, but I'm here to talk about the L0pht and Space Rogue.
[01:38:04.690 --> 01:38:06.710] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I did buy the book during the break.
[01:38:06.710 --> 01:38:06.990] [SPACEROGUE]: Excellent.
[01:38:07.090 --> 01:38:08.710] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I mean, the radio show... Off The Hook.
[01:38:09.110 --> 01:38:09.750] [SPACEROGUE]: Thank you.
[01:38:10.030 --> 01:38:23.490] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You know, I got, you know, I have my Kindle with me here in the hospital, and so I just went on, went on Amazon and bought the e-book, and I'm looking forward to reading that, as I have a lot of time on my hands, as you can imagine.
[01:38:25.470 --> 01:38:28.170] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I've been following the L0pht for a long time.
[01:38:28.610 --> 01:38:34.830] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You know, when they testified before Congress, I thought that was amazing.
[01:38:35.350 --> 01:39:09.010] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You know, I actually re-watched the whole testimony just a few months ago, and it was really, you know, it was a watershed moment for hackerdom, and just basically how clueless government is, what it is with tech, you know, kind of like what I said in my last call when I was talking with the guy from the EFF about just how behind people in government, in the legislature and in the judiciary especially, are behind on just the tech scene and the realities of what tech is.
[01:39:22.410 --> 01:39:27.910] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, I like to think that they're catching up sometimes, and then, of course, technology takes another giant leap forward.
[01:39:28.670 --> 01:39:29.890] [SPACEROGUE]: So it's going to take a while.
[01:39:30.070 --> 01:39:36.670] [SPACEROGUE]: For example, as you mentioned at the beginning of the show, ChatGPT, how are we going to handle these chatbots, right?
[01:39:36.730 --> 01:39:41.250] [SPACEROGUE]: What's the legal ramifications of these chatbots, and what's ethical and what's not, right?
[01:39:41.370 --> 01:40:00.750] [SPACEROGUE]: And so those are the things that we need to look at and try to decide on and educate lawmakers on now, so that when they go to write the laws, and they will, because that's what they do, that they write them correctly and appropriately so that they actually are effective laws that go into the future and not have issues that we have with some of the older laws.
[01:40:02.170 --> 01:40:08.110] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Yeah, actually, I addressed this in an upcoming article that's going to be published in the magazine.
[01:40:08.410 --> 01:40:11.990] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I actually got an acceptance email in the emergency department.
[01:40:12.910 --> 01:40:14.950] [EVILCORLEY]: What, they gave it to you?
[01:40:16.190 --> 01:40:20.750] [JOHNNYFUSN]: No, no, I was checking my email on my phone, and I got the email.
[01:40:20.810 --> 01:40:21.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, I thought it was like a telegram.
[01:40:21.990 --> 01:40:26.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Man, they ran it through and said, sir, you must see this, because we do that sometimes.
[01:40:29.790 --> 01:40:35.750] [JOHNNYFUSN]: No, but yeah, you know, and I'm very grateful for you publishing me again.
[01:40:36.150 --> 01:40:38.710] [JOHNNYFUSN]: This will be my fifth article for the magazine.
[01:40:38.830 --> 01:40:44.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, we're the ones who are grateful for people who write, because believe it or not, it's a rarity these days.
[01:40:44.710 --> 01:40:53.190] [EVILCORLEY]: And I just, I'm afraid that people are going to use these artificial intelligence applications as crutches and never learn how to write.
[01:40:53.210 --> 01:40:55.770] [EVILCORLEY]: So it's always good when people actually take the time.
[01:40:56.970 --> 01:41:18.290] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Well, I've been writing a long time, you know, and I take pride in my craft, and that's what the article is about, about not being replaced by AI, because every human being is unique and has a unique voice, and can't really be replaced, because human beings aren't really replaceable or interchangeable.
[01:41:19.810 --> 01:41:20.930] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, well said.
[01:41:21.310 --> 01:41:21.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Well said.
[01:41:21.990 --> 01:41:24.170] [EVILCORLEY]: Any other questions for Space Rogue?
[01:41:25.010 --> 01:41:25.690] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Yeah.
[01:41:26.610 --> 01:41:37.450] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I remember, I think it was, oh, well, time is wonky during the pandemic, but sometime during the pandemic, didn't L0phtCrack go open-source?
[01:41:38.410 --> 01:41:40.990] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, L0phtCrack has had a long and storied history.
[01:41:41.170 --> 01:41:46.430] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm not sure I'm the best person to tell the L0phtCrack story, but I'll try to give you a brief synopsis.
[01:41:46.910 --> 01:41:49.530] [SPACEROGUE]: The current status, I believe it is open-source.
[01:41:51.230 --> 01:42:02.550] [SPACEROGUE]: So L0phtCrack was a product that L0pht had, which audited Windows NT passwords, for those that aren't familiar with it, back in 1997, when it first came out.
[01:42:02.950 --> 01:42:06.470] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's gone through several iterations and versions over the years.
[01:42:07.050 --> 01:42:11.110] [SPACEROGUE]: AtStake, when AtStake bought L0pht, they didn't really know what to do with L0phtCrack.
[01:42:11.230 --> 01:42:13.090] [SPACEROGUE]: Again, that didn't fit in their business model either.
[01:42:13.890 --> 01:42:21.330] [SPACEROGUE]: So they kind of, they made it, they had to rechange the name from L0phtCrack to LC, LC5.
[01:42:22.490 --> 01:42:24.230] [SPACEROGUE]: I think it was the release version.
[01:42:24.390 --> 01:42:29.270] [SPACEROGUE]: And then when Symantec bought AtStake, they didn't know what to do with it at all, and they shelved it.
[01:42:29.270 --> 01:42:35.110] [SPACEROGUE]: But somehow, Mudge and Weld and DilDog got L0phtCrack back from Symantec and re-released the product.
[01:42:35.830 --> 01:42:38.170] [SPACEROGUE]: And then they realized, it's too much work for us to do.
[01:42:38.230 --> 01:42:39.030] [SPACEROGUE]: We got day jobs.
[01:42:39.170 --> 01:42:40.630] [SPACEROGUE]: We can't really keep up with this anymore.
[01:42:40.890 --> 01:42:49.230] [SPACEROGUE]: And so they gave or sold or licensed the product to another company, and they kind of just let it flounder for a couple of years.
[01:42:49.390 --> 01:42:54.310] [SPACEROGUE]: And so Weld and Mudge and DilDog were like, I don't know what you're doing over there with this thing, but we're taking it back.
[01:42:54.310 --> 01:42:58.370] [SPACEROGUE]: And so they somehow got it back from this other company and then released it as open-source.
[01:42:58.570 --> 01:43:02.650] [SPACEROGUE]: And so now L0phtCrack is open-source, and anybody can use it for free.
[01:43:03.410 --> 01:43:07.050] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm not sure the website to point you to, maybe l0phtcrack.com.
[01:43:07.190 --> 01:43:08.570] [SPACEROGUE]: You can Google it, I'm sure.
[01:43:08.870 --> 01:43:10.550] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's L-0-P-H-T.
[01:43:10.690 --> 01:43:10.950] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:43:11.030 --> 01:43:11.250] [SPACEROGUE]: Go ahead.
[01:43:11.470 --> 01:43:16.850] [KYLEDROSDK]: Oh, I would just say, being open-source, wouldn't that also mean that anyone can develop it themselves?
[01:43:17.330 --> 01:43:17.730] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yes.
[01:43:17.730 --> 01:43:18.510] [KYLEDROSDK]: In addition to...
[01:43:18.510 --> 01:43:20.970] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm not sure what the license it was released under.
[01:43:20.970 --> 01:43:27.790] [SPACEROGUE]: It's not my project, but it still exists, it's still out there, and you can go find it and do what you will with it.
[01:43:27.790 --> 01:43:28.270] [EVILCORLEY]: It's awesome.
[01:43:28.270 --> 01:43:29.250] [ROBVINCENT]: It's under a combination.
[01:43:29.510 --> 01:43:33.530] [ROBVINCENT]: I'm sorry to jump in, but it's under a combination of licenses, all open-source.
[01:43:33.770 --> 01:43:34.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:43:34.170 --> 01:43:34.270] [ROBVINCENT]: Great.
[01:43:34.470 --> 01:43:40.970] [EVILCORLEY]: It's just awesome that they care enough about it to keep looking after it, making sure it's being treated with the respect it deserves.
[01:43:41.670 --> 01:43:47.010] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, I mean, they could have sold it off or whatever the deal was they made with this other company and then just totally forgot about it.
[01:43:47.010 --> 01:43:50.510] [SPACEROGUE]: But it was important to make sure that it stayed alive and was useful.
[01:43:50.790 --> 01:43:52.450] [SPACEROGUE]: And it's really...
[01:43:52.450 --> 01:44:08.390] [SPACEROGUE]: I think L0phtCrack is another influential part of the L0pht story in the fact that it was really one of the very first widely available Windows NT password auditors and influenced a large number of other programs that came after it.
[01:44:08.930 --> 01:44:09.710] [SPACEROGUE]: Jack the Ripper...
[01:44:09.710 --> 01:44:16.370] [SPACEROGUE]: Actually, Jack the Ripper might have been first as a UNIX program, but the NT part was influenced by L0phtCrack, so...
[01:44:16.370 --> 01:44:19.550] [SPACEROGUE]: And then there's 0phCrack, without the L.
[01:44:19.950 --> 01:44:21.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh, didn't know about that one.
[01:44:22.090 --> 01:44:22.890] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, there's 0phCrack.
[01:44:22.950 --> 01:44:26.910] [SPACEROGUE]: There's a couple other ones, too, that were similarly named that are out there.
[01:44:27.030 --> 01:44:31.130] [SPACEROGUE]: And when L0phtCrack kind of went on hiatus, they kind of took over, and now L0phtCrack...
[01:44:31.130 --> 01:44:32.370] [SPACEROGUE]: I haven't really been keeping up.
[01:44:32.450 --> 01:44:34.850] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't really know, but it's out there if you want it.
[01:44:35.670 --> 01:44:35.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:44:38.080 --> 01:44:42.760] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Yeah, and I just want to thank the L0pht and, you know, for being pioneers.
[01:44:42.760 --> 01:44:48.640] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You talked about it a little bit earlier before I called, about being pioneers in the hackerspace.
[01:44:49.120 --> 01:45:04.860] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You know, a few years ago, I moved to a new community, and that was one of the first things that I was able to get plugged into and build, you know, my social wellness in a new community was going to the local hackerspace.
[01:45:04.860 --> 01:45:16.700] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You know, this was Sonora, California, very small rural town in the foothills in the Sierra Nevadas, and they had the Motherlode Maker Lab.
[01:45:17.380 --> 01:45:34.640] [JOHNNYFUSN]: And, you know, I met a group of friends, and I just was able to go there and hack, you know, learn to 3D print, and I started working with microcontrollers and got better at my Linux skills.
[01:45:34.640 --> 01:45:58.680] [JOHNNYFUSN]: And I think the genesis of all hackerspaces really began with the L0pht, and because of the impact it had on my life, I'm just really grateful for the genesis of just, I mean, I'm sure it happened just organically, but it was repeated, and that model has repeated,
[01:45:58.900 --> 01:46:08.300] [JOHNNYFUSN]: you know, just kind of, like, as hackers do, we take what works, and we repeat it, and we share it, and we grow it.
[01:46:09.240 --> 01:46:21.280] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, thank you very much for the kind words, and I'm glad that L0pht was there and was able to assist you in your journey and further of your education and well-being and social makeup.
[01:46:21.840 --> 01:46:26.500] [SPACEROGUE]: You know, those are really impactful things to hear that we sort of played a part in.
[01:46:26.580 --> 01:46:27.700] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know how to handle that.
[01:46:28.180 --> 01:46:32.140] [SPACEROGUE]: People tell me that sometimes, and I'm like, you know, we were just a bunch of guys in a warehouse, really.
[01:46:33.160 --> 01:46:36.900] [SPACEROGUE]: And people tell me that, you know, L0pht had a major impact on their life.
[01:46:37.040 --> 01:46:38.820] [SPACEROGUE]: So thank you for that.
[01:46:38.820 --> 01:46:40.440] [SPACEROGUE]: I appreciate those words.
[01:46:40.980 --> 01:46:41.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[01:46:41.500 --> 01:46:53.600] [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you so much for all the words that you share with us, both on the radio, in the magazine, and just in appreciation of what we have in the hacker community, because it's unique.
[01:46:53.600 --> 01:46:54.160] [EVILCORLEY]: It's precious.
[01:46:54.400 --> 01:46:56.200] [EVILCORLEY]: It's something that's so worth preserving.
[01:46:57.200 --> 01:46:58.120] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Yeah, definitely.
[01:46:58.440 --> 01:47:13.100] [JOHNNYFUSN]: And when I'm medically cleared to live independently again after this transplant journey, you know, I plan to be going to the San Francisco 2600 meetings and finding another local hacker or maker space.
[01:47:13.700 --> 01:47:21.920] [JOHNNYFUSN]: You know, you know, and putting down roots close to my transplant center, because when I get sick, I don't want to go to any other hospital.
[01:47:22.240 --> 01:47:23.940] [EVILCORLEY]: No, you got to take care of yourself.
[01:47:23.940 --> 01:47:25.160] [EVILCORLEY]: That's the important thing.
[01:47:25.660 --> 01:47:32.240] [EVILCORLEY]: It was great hearing from you, and I really hope next time we hear from you, you'll be in a much better place and thriving.
[01:47:34.200 --> 01:47:35.160] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Thank you, Emmanuel.
[01:47:35.400 --> 01:47:38.160] [JOHNNYFUSN]: It was good to talk to you and talk to everyone.
[01:47:38.300 --> 01:47:39.140] [EVILCORLEY]: And please keep writing.
[01:47:39.360 --> 01:47:39.920] [JOHNNYFUSN]: I hope you're all doing well.
[01:47:40.080 --> 01:47:40.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Please keep writing.
[01:47:40.940 --> 01:47:41.340] [JOHNNYFUSN]: What's that?
[01:47:41.520 --> 01:47:42.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Keep writing.
[01:47:42.100 --> 01:47:43.660] [EVILCORLEY]: We need more writers.
[01:47:44.980 --> 01:47:47.860] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Okay, I'll get to work on my next article.
[01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:48.180] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:47:48.640 --> 01:47:49.320] [EVILCORLEY]: Be well.
[01:47:49.560 --> 01:47:50.440] [EVILCORLEY]: Thanks for calling.
[01:47:50.800 --> 01:47:51.060] [JOHNNYFUSN]: Bye.
[01:47:53.080 --> 01:47:54.360] [EVILCORLEY]: Pretty awesome there.
[01:47:55.440 --> 01:48:00.660] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, while we were speaking with him, I was just looking over something on your Wikipedia page.
[01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:05.780] [EVILCORLEY]: It's really jumped out at me concerning a 2016 U.S. Government Accountability Office report.
[01:48:07.420 --> 01:48:17.360] [EVILCORLEY]: This is about the nation's nuclear weapons and how they're under the control of computers that rely on outdated 8-inch floppy disks.
[01:48:17.620 --> 01:48:19.300] [EVILCORLEY]: I remember seeing this on 60 Minutes.
[01:48:19.440 --> 01:48:36.140] [EVILCORLEY]: And I believe you argued that the older computers, data storage systems, programming languages, and lack of Internet connectivity actually makes it more difficult for them to be broken into effectively reducing the vulnerability of the weapons control systems to hacking.
[01:48:36.400 --> 01:48:39.100] [EVILCORLEY]: Whereas most people would say, oh my God, this is so outdated.
[01:48:39.340 --> 01:48:42.740] [EVILCORLEY]: We have to replace this with the most modern thing right now.
[01:48:42.840 --> 01:48:55.360] [EVILCORLEY]: And I think you saw it for what it was as actually, through its antiquity, actually being a level of security that many systems today can't achieve.
[01:48:55.960 --> 01:48:58.640] [SPACEROGUE]: Security through obscurity, sometimes it's referred to.
[01:48:58.880 --> 01:49:03.940] [SPACEROGUE]: I think in that particular case, the argument was that, oh my God, it's old, we have to make it new.
[01:49:04.200 --> 01:49:05.000] [SPACEROGUE]: And that was it.
[01:49:05.180 --> 01:49:05.960] [SPACEROGUE]: That was the argument.
[01:49:07.300 --> 01:49:10.940] [SPACEROGUE]: And yeah, we're talking about systems that were controlling nuclear weapons.
[01:49:11.080 --> 01:49:14.520] [SPACEROGUE]: We're talking about 8-inch floppy drives, like really old, ancient stuff.
[01:49:14.640 --> 01:49:18.400] [SPACEROGUE]: And my argument is, this stuff isn't connected to the Internet.
[01:49:18.620 --> 01:49:20.940] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, you would need physical access to it anyway.
[01:49:20.940 --> 01:49:27.560] [SPACEROGUE]: Anyway, so as long as you have spare parts and a source of 8-inch floppy disks and backups, who cares how old it is?
[01:49:27.620 --> 01:49:28.100] [SPACEROGUE]: It works.
[01:49:28.360 --> 01:49:29.200] [SPACEROGUE]: Don't fix it, right?
[01:49:30.180 --> 01:49:41.380] [SPACEROGUE]: And so, you know, if this was an Internet-connected system, if there was other, you know, variables that we needed to take into account, then yeah, maybe upgrading it would be wise.
[01:49:41.520 --> 01:49:44.300] [SPACEROGUE]: But in this particular case, none of that really applied.
[01:49:44.540 --> 01:49:46.440] [SPACEROGUE]: The fact that it was old didn't really matter.
[01:49:46.440 --> 01:49:47.120] [SPACEROGUE]: It worked.
[01:49:47.360 --> 01:49:49.420] [SPACEROGUE]: So let it continue to work.
[01:49:49.860 --> 01:49:52.540] [EVILCORLEY]: Isn't that the answer to so many of our problems, though?
[01:49:52.760 --> 01:49:55.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Does everything have to be connected to the Internet?
[01:49:55.680 --> 01:49:59.640] [SPACEROGUE]: I actually got a gift of a connected Rubik's Cube today.
[01:50:00.680 --> 01:50:01.080] [EVILCORLEY]: Really?
[01:50:01.720 --> 01:50:02.640] [SPACEROGUE]: It's actually kind of neat.
[01:50:02.780 --> 01:50:04.360] [SPACEROGUE]: And I am enjoying it immensely.
[01:50:04.620 --> 01:50:06.800] [SPACEROGUE]: But it's just the fact that I have a Rubik's Cube.
[01:50:07.000 --> 01:50:11.300] [SPACEROGUE]: Like, the actual toy, the Rubik's Cube, that has Bluetooth in it, is kind of amazing.
[01:50:12.440 --> 01:50:14.340] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, as a gimmick, yeah, it's great.
[01:50:14.340 --> 01:50:17.440] [EVILCORLEY]: But you don't need your refrigerator to be on the Internet, do you?
[01:50:17.740 --> 01:50:18.220] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean...
[01:50:18.220 --> 01:50:20.220] [SPACEROGUE]: No, I don't need my refrigerator to be on the Internet.
[01:50:20.380 --> 01:50:26.500] [SPACEROGUE]: In fact, I do actually have a Wi-Fi-enabled washing machine, dryer, and oven in my house.
[01:50:26.640 --> 01:50:27.740] [SPACEROGUE]: But none of them I have connected.
[01:50:28.020 --> 01:50:32.560] [SPACEROGUE]: Even though I have an IoT network on my home network, I have not connected them to it because I don't need to.
[01:50:32.900 --> 01:50:39.880] [SPACEROGUE]: But what they're starting to do, and I've noticed this the hard way, is there are certain features that you cannot access unless it's through the app.
[01:50:41.000 --> 01:50:42.340] [SPACEROGUE]: So I cannot...
[01:50:42.340 --> 01:50:48.460] [SPACEROGUE]: For example, there is a certain dryer setting on my dryer, and I forget what the setting is, but every now and then I want to use it.
[01:50:49.220 --> 01:50:52.580] [SPACEROGUE]: I can't access it because it's only via the app.
[01:50:53.060 --> 01:50:54.040] [SPACEROGUE]: And I just like...
[01:50:54.040 --> 01:50:55.840] [SPACEROGUE]: So I have to use some other setting on the dryer.
[01:50:55.980 --> 01:50:56.660] [SPACEROGUE]: It's kind of frustrating.
[01:50:56.840 --> 01:51:00.260] [EVILCORLEY]: Does the app have to go through the Internet, or can the app connect directly?
[01:51:00.980 --> 01:51:02.700] [SPACEROGUE]: Uh, I'm assuming it...
[01:51:02.700 --> 01:51:03.860] [SPACEROGUE]: Well, it has to go onto my...
[01:51:03.860 --> 01:51:07.440] [SPACEROGUE]: It's not a local ad hoc network, so it has to go onto my network somehow.
[01:51:07.440 --> 01:51:10.080] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know if it needs to phone home to the home servers.
[01:51:10.300 --> 01:51:13.720] [SPACEROGUE]: I hope not, because I'm sure that company's not going to be here 30 years from now.
[01:51:13.800 --> 01:51:14.980] [SPACEROGUE]: They're not going to keep those servers around.
[01:51:15.300 --> 01:51:15.640] [EVILCORLEY]: Exactly, yeah.
[01:51:16.160 --> 01:51:17.800] [SPACEROGUE]: Luckily, my dryer will still be here.
[01:51:17.800 --> 01:51:18.220] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know.
[01:51:18.380 --> 01:51:23.140] [EVILCORLEY]: But that's how they force you to upgrade and get new equipment when your old equipment is...
[01:51:23.140 --> 01:51:27.000] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, at 2600, we drive machines into the ground.
[01:51:27.000 --> 01:51:29.540] [EVILCORLEY]: We use things for 10, 20 years.
[01:51:29.760 --> 01:51:36.460] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, if they're not being used for the most urgent stuff, they're being used for something.
[01:51:36.660 --> 01:51:37.320] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, we...
[01:51:37.320 --> 01:51:37.700] [EVILCORLEY]: That's right.
[01:51:38.460 --> 01:51:54.620] [KYLEDROSDK]: Just to add a fine detail, like, we have machines that we've replaced capacitors on the motherboards themselves, and then put the machine back in with new power supplies or new drives and the same old OS if we want it offline or whatever.
[01:51:54.860 --> 01:51:56.460] [EVILCORLEY]: Yep, go right back out there to the front line.
[01:51:56.460 --> 01:51:56.840] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's...
[01:51:56.840 --> 01:52:00.520] [SPACEROGUE]: My toothbrush is 15 years old, and I've replaced the battery four times.
[01:52:00.880 --> 01:52:01.240] [KYLEDROSDK]: Awesome.
[01:52:01.460 --> 01:52:01.700] [KYLEDROSDK]: Wow.
[01:52:01.940 --> 01:52:02.620] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow, okay.
[01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:03.040] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah.
[01:52:03.500 --> 01:52:04.800] [SPACEROGUE]: Because the new toothbrush...
[01:52:04.800 --> 01:52:10.700] [SPACEROGUE]: The new ones have, like, some pressure-sensitive thing in it to protect your gums or something, and it's like, I don't want that.
[01:52:10.760 --> 01:52:12.540] [SPACEROGUE]: But you can't turn it off, and it's there.
[01:52:12.680 --> 01:52:13.220] [SPACEROGUE]: And I'm like...
[01:52:13.220 --> 01:52:14.460] [SPACEROGUE]: So that...
[01:52:14.460 --> 01:52:15.300] [SPACEROGUE]: I bought the new one.
[01:52:15.360 --> 01:52:15.880] [SPACEROGUE]: I hated it.
[01:52:15.980 --> 01:52:16.500] [SPACEROGUE]: So I'm like, you know what?
[01:52:16.500 --> 01:52:18.500] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm just going to take my old one apart and put a new battery in it.
[01:52:18.620 --> 01:52:20.120] [SPACEROGUE]: And so I've done that four times now.
[01:52:20.540 --> 01:52:24.200] [SPACEROGUE]: The toothbrush is from, like, you know, it's 15 years old at least, if not older.
[01:52:25.380 --> 01:52:31.240] [SPACEROGUE]: And I had to actually buy older toothbrushes off eBay to get spare parts to fix this one toothbrush.
[01:52:31.860 --> 01:52:34.600] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm running a machine on XP.
[01:52:35.360 --> 01:52:36.000] [SPACEROGUE]: Oh, jeez.
[01:52:36.160 --> 01:52:40.760] [EVILCORLEY]: The only reason for existence is to run an old version of iTunes for Windows.
[01:52:41.220 --> 01:52:48.080] [EVILCORLEY]: And the reason I want that is because it's not filled with bloatware and ads and all kinds of connect to the iTunes store.
[01:52:48.360 --> 01:52:49.920] [EVILCORLEY]: And I want that.
[01:52:49.920 --> 01:52:51.540] [EVILCORLEY]: I want to keep it that way.
[01:52:52.560 --> 01:52:59.200] [EVILCORLEY]: And anytime something happens where I might have to change some bit of hardware in that machine, I'm always being lectured.
[01:52:59.300 --> 01:53:00.160] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to upgrade.
[01:53:00.320 --> 01:53:01.480] [EVILCORLEY]: No, I don't have to upgrade.
[01:53:01.480 --> 01:53:02.600] [EVILCORLEY]: I like it the way it is.
[01:53:02.700 --> 01:53:04.000] [EVILCORLEY]: It's not connected to the Internet.
[01:53:04.000 --> 01:53:05.220] [EVILCORLEY]: It plays music for me.
[01:53:05.300 --> 01:53:06.000] [EVILCORLEY]: It's perfect.
[01:53:06.200 --> 01:53:10.240] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't want the newest thing because as soon as I get that, it's going to do something I don't want it to do.
[01:53:10.360 --> 01:53:12.340] [EVILCORLEY]: It's going to rename something to something I don't want.
[01:53:12.900 --> 01:53:14.720] [EVILCORLEY]: A lot of people don't seem to understand that.
[01:53:14.720 --> 01:53:21.460] [EVILCORLEY]: They feel they have to immediately change things when they're told to change things by the company, by the software manufacturer.
[01:53:22.080 --> 01:53:25.700] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, sometimes it's a good idea when it's a security issue.
[01:53:26.040 --> 01:53:37.060] [EVILCORLEY]: Many times, though, you know, if you have something that you like and you understand the security concerns, there's nothing wrong with you running it the way you want to run it without somebody telling you what to do.
[01:53:38.560 --> 01:53:39.000] [SPACEROGUE]: Exactly.
[01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:40.960] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm glad somebody agrees.
[01:53:41.780 --> 01:53:43.420] [EVILCORLEY]: It took long enough to find somebody.
[01:53:44.720 --> 01:53:46.180] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, Space Rogue, it's been a delight.
[01:53:46.320 --> 01:53:46.760] [EVILCORLEY]: It really has.
[01:53:46.940 --> 01:53:52.660] [EVILCORLEY]: Please tell us more about how people can get your book and what your next book is going to be about.
[01:53:53.600 --> 01:53:57.380] [SPACEROGUE]: So the current book is Space Rogue: How the Hackers Known as L0pht Changed the World.
[01:53:57.520 --> 01:54:03.720] [SPACEROGUE]: It is available at better bookstores everywhere, including Amazon, both in hardcover, paperback, and e-book.
[01:54:04.300 --> 01:54:05.840] [SPACEROGUE]: So feel free to check out.
[01:54:05.940 --> 01:54:06.920] [SPACEROGUE]: Go to your local bookstore.
[01:54:07.600 --> 01:54:17.820] [SPACEROGUE]: Bookshop.org, if you're not familiar with it, will donate part of your purchase price to your local bookshop so that we can have the local stores stay open and not get run out of business by Amazon.
[01:54:18.000 --> 01:54:20.500] [SPACEROGUE]: But if Amazon's your only choice, it's available there, too.
[01:54:20.780 --> 01:54:22.600] [SPACEROGUE]: As for the next book, I don't know yet.
[01:54:23.120 --> 01:54:28.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, well, I think that'll depend on the feedback to this book, which it just came out, what, about a month ago, two months ago?
[01:54:28.920 --> 01:54:30.780] [SPACEROGUE]: It's been six weeks, I think it's been available.
[01:54:31.020 --> 01:54:31.020] [EVILCORLEY]: Six weeks.
[01:54:31.120 --> 01:54:31.300] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[01:54:32.080 --> 01:54:33.040] [KYLEDROSDK]: Great-looking cover.
[01:54:33.340 --> 01:54:35.000] [KYLEDROSDK]: It ended up really, really, really nice.
[01:54:35.000 --> 01:54:35.800] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:54:36.260 --> 01:54:39.100] [EVILCORLEY]: And how do the rest of the people in the L0pht feel about it?
[01:54:39.980 --> 01:54:41.240] [SPACEROGUE]: That's an interesting question.
[01:54:41.700 --> 01:54:46.080] [SPACEROGUE]: So I didn't tell anybody I was writing the book until it basically came out.
[01:54:47.280 --> 01:54:48.900] [EVILCORLEY]: Did they appreciate the surprise?
[01:54:50.040 --> 01:54:52.520] [SPACEROGUE]: I haven't had any negative feedback from them.
[01:54:53.780 --> 01:55:02.000] [SPACEROGUE]: There's one person in the community who I won't name who is mentioned in the book, and I sent them an advanced copy and said, hey, I'm publishing this book, you're in it.
[01:55:02.000 --> 01:55:03.700] [SPACEROGUE]: And they were not very happy.
[01:55:04.000 --> 01:55:05.620] [SPACEROGUE]: They didn't want to be in the book at all.
[01:55:05.720 --> 01:55:08.040] [SPACEROGUE]: But other than that, the feedback has been very positive.
[01:55:08.540 --> 01:55:09.020] [SPACEROGUE]: Wow.
[01:55:09.760 --> 01:55:14.640] [EVILCORLEY]: Some words towards the end of the book that one of the reviews mentions.
[01:55:15.360 --> 01:55:17.640] [EVILCORLEY]: You say, hackers are not the bad guys.
[01:55:18.080 --> 01:55:28.200] [EVILCORLEY]: Most of the great inventors of our time, such as Alexander Graham Bell, Mildred Kenner, and Nikola Tesla, could easily be considered hackers.
[01:55:28.200 --> 01:55:34.000] [EVILCORLEY]: Criminal gangs who are running ransomware campaigns or are stealing credit cards are just that, criminals.
[01:55:34.220 --> 01:55:36.620] [EVILCORLEY]: They just happen to use a computer instead of a crowbar.
[01:55:36.840 --> 01:55:39.040] [EVILCORLEY]: They are not hackers, not to me anyway.
[01:55:39.200 --> 01:55:46.200] [EVILCORLEY]: L0pht's message of bringing security issues to light and getting them fixed still echoes throughout the industry and is more important today than ever.
[01:55:46.560 --> 01:55:49.140] [EVILCORLEY]: I can't think of a better way to sum it all up.
[01:55:49.600 --> 01:55:50.220] [SPACEROGUE]: Thank you.
[01:55:51.280 --> 01:55:51.780] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:55:51.880 --> 01:55:55.880] [EVILCORLEY]: We've been speaking with Space Rogue, who has written a terrific book.
[01:55:56.200 --> 01:56:02.040] [EVILCORLEY]: Please get a copy, gift it to people, and write to us with your feedback.
[01:56:02.220 --> 01:56:08.680] [EVILCORLEY]: If you have anything you want to say about the show, this show, or the one previous, oth@2600.com.
[01:56:08.880 --> 01:56:11.280] [EVILCORLEY]: Space Rogue, any contact points you'd like to give out?
[01:56:12.080 --> 01:56:12.900] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm on Twitter.
[01:56:13.140 --> 01:56:13.940] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm on Mastodon.
[01:56:14.080 --> 01:56:15.080] [SPACEROGUE]: I prefer Mastodon.
[01:56:15.320 --> 01:56:17.500] [SPACEROGUE]: There's a website, spacerogue.net.
[01:56:17.760 --> 01:56:18.840] [SPACEROGUE]: I have email.
[01:56:19.080 --> 01:56:20.660] [SPACEROGUE]: There's a web form on the website.
[01:56:20.920 --> 01:56:22.280] [SPACEROGUE]: I'm pretty much available everywhere.
[01:56:22.480 --> 01:56:25.300] [SPACEROGUE]: On LinkedIn, as Space Rogue, which is kind of interesting.
[01:56:25.420 --> 01:56:27.660] [SPACEROGUE]: I don't know how long that'll last, but it's been there for 20 years.
[01:56:28.340 --> 01:56:28.780] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow.
[01:56:29.260 --> 01:56:32.680] [EVILCORLEY]: Are you surprised some things have lasted for a long, long time and other things?
[01:56:32.860 --> 01:56:39.660] [SPACEROGUE]: Yeah, my LinkedIn profile as Space Rogue is one of them because they keep saying they're going to crack down on not real names.
[01:56:39.660 --> 01:56:43.540] [SPACEROGUE]: But it's been up there as Space Rogue for 20 years, and hopefully it'll stay there.
[01:56:44.280 --> 01:56:44.380] [EVILCORLEY]: Awesome.
[01:56:45.140 --> 01:56:46.860] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, again, it's been so much fun talking.
[01:56:46.860 --> 01:56:49.380] [EVILCORLEY]: We could talk for hours and hours, and hopefully we will again soon.
[01:56:49.760 --> 01:56:53.420] [EVILCORLEY]: And we look forward to seeing you at HOPE, and maybe we'll make it down to where you are at some point.
[01:56:54.000 --> 01:56:54.480] [SPACEROGUE]: All right, great.
[01:56:54.620 --> 01:56:55.420] [SPACEROGUE]: Looking forward to seeing you.
[01:56:55.540 --> 01:56:55.860] [EVILCORLEY]: All right.
[01:56:56.160 --> 01:56:56.420] [EVILCORLEY]: Take care.
[01:56:56.500 --> 01:56:56.900] [EVILCORLEY]: Good night, everybody.
[01:56:56.900 --> 01:56:58.100] [EVILCORLEY]: We'll see you in two weeks.