Off The Hook - 2023-05-10

[00:00.000 --> 00:03.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: or visit nyc.gov slash getcoverednyc.
[00:03.900 --> 00:09.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Connect with a Get Covered NYC specialist to see if you qualify for a Medicare savings program.
[00:09.440 --> 00:16.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Call 311 and ask for Get Covered NYC or visit nyc.gov slash getcoverednyc.
[00:19.300 --> 00:27.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Stay tuned for Off The Hook here on WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org online.
[00:27.960 --> 00:29.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's one minute past seven.
[00:30.000 --> 00:30.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: 7 p.m.
[01:37.680 --> 01:38.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're sorry.
[01:38.860 --> 01:44.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: The number you have reached, 99.5 WBAI, is now Off The Hook.
[01:49.960 --> 01:54.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:55.380 --> 01:59.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[02:00.780 --> 02:08.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: We couldn't get much worse, but the best is fake for worse.
[02:08.760 --> 02:11.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope that's understood, but make me go!
[03:29.940 --> 03:31.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:32.040 --> 03:33.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: The program is Off The Hook.
[03:33.880 --> 03:38.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[03:38.320 --> 03:39.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, right here.
[03:39.440 --> 03:41.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Over in Skype-land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
[03:42.360 --> 03:43.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[03:43.520 --> 03:44.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have Gila.
[03:44.640 --> 03:45.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[03:45.680 --> 03:47.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we have Alex.
[03:48.540 --> 03:49.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good evening.
[03:49.960 --> 03:52.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alex, are you in some exotic place this week?
[03:54.440 --> 03:56.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess it's slightly exotic.
[03:56.240 --> 03:57.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's Pittsburgh.
[03:58.080 --> 03:59.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[03:59.940 --> 04:00.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Pittsburgh.
[04:00.560 --> 04:00.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[04:01.020 --> 04:01.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's great.
[04:01.700 --> 04:01.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[04:02.560 --> 04:02.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[04:03.400 --> 04:10.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm here for the National Cyber Forensics Training Alliance Disruptions 2023 conference.
[04:10.120 --> 04:13.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I gave a presentation earlier today.
[04:13.340 --> 04:16.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'll be here until tomorrow.
[04:16.030 --> 04:27.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was at a Pirates game last night with a bunch of colleagues, and then actually took the weird little subway that they have in Pittsburgh.
[04:28.150 --> 04:29.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: Have you ever been on the Pittsburgh subway?
[04:30.060 --> 04:30.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[04:31.020 --> 04:31.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[04:32.900 --> 04:33.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry.
[04:34.020 --> 04:37.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I took one look at that, and I just couldn't.
[04:37.560 --> 04:38.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like the Detroit people mover.
[04:38.980 --> 04:54.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It just, yeah, it's nice, you know, it's a concept, but, you know, call me when you have a bunch of lines and some transfers, and, you know, I don't want to sound, you know, all high and mighty here, but it's a city.
[04:54.960 --> 04:56.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: It deserves a real subway, doesn't it?
[04:57.030 --> 04:58.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think that's true.
[04:58.520 --> 05:00.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, they don't even call it the subway, right?
[05:00.220 --> 05:02.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: They call it the T, and it's very limited.
[05:02.800 --> 05:03.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's in Boston.
[05:03.740 --> 05:06.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, Boston calls it the T, and they have a decent system.
[05:06.600 --> 05:07.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: It could be better, but it's decent.
[05:08.500 --> 05:10.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, it could be a lot better in Boston.
[05:10.520 --> 05:13.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you, in Pittsburgh, you've got the 412 area code, okay?
[05:13.220 --> 05:29.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the reason why you're 412 is because when they started inventing area codes, they gave the lower numbers to the cities that were the most important, or at least the ones that you were going to dial the most, so that you wouldn't have to have your finger go all around the rotary dial.
[05:29.440 --> 05:35.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that's why New York has 212, Los Angeles had 213, Chicago was 312, Pittsburgh, 412.
[05:35.880 --> 05:36.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: We had high hopes.
[05:37.320 --> 05:38.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, we did.
[05:38.280 --> 05:40.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess, yeah, right in the middle of the rotary dial there.
[05:40.320 --> 05:47.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: I didn't realize that, that the distance that the rotary had to dial, that had to travel determined area codes.
[05:47.920 --> 05:48.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was not aware of that.
[05:48.860 --> 05:50.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Look how much I'm learning tonight.
[05:50.680 --> 05:58.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at, you know, things like 907, 808, Alaska, Hawaii, you know, it's way up there.
[05:59.360 --> 06:01.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can just take your time dialing those numbers.
[06:01.680 --> 06:02.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: No one's in a rush.
[06:03.600 --> 06:04.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it was funny.
[06:05.080 --> 06:13.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was in the elevator with an FBI agent who was from Anchorage, Alaska, and I saw that on his badge and said, you know, FBI, Anchorage.
[06:13.460 --> 06:14.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I said, oh, you're from the 907.
[06:15.320 --> 06:15.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[06:15.800 --> 06:17.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he said, yeah, yeah, I am.
[06:17.860 --> 06:19.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: He said, you've been to Anchorage?
[06:19.400 --> 06:20.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: You've been to Alaska?
[06:20.320 --> 06:21.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I said, no.
[06:21.520 --> 06:22.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: I said, but you're in Anchorage.
[06:22.780 --> 06:26.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'm pretty sure there's an exchange there, 243, right?
[06:27.240 --> 06:30.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he used to have a 907-243 number.
[06:30.520 --> 06:32.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: And he looked at me like I was some kind of freak.
[06:33.500 --> 06:41.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And yes, I totally blew this FBI agent's mind by knowing this area code and exchange.
[06:41.020 --> 06:42.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I know how you know the area code.
[06:42.960 --> 06:43.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: How did you know this exchange?
[06:45.000 --> 07:03.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, because way back in the day, you know, when blue boxing was, not blue boxing, when red boxing was a thing, we used to call numbers in Alaska because it was the farthest phone call that you could make that was still, you know, by virtue of, that wasn't an international call,
[07:04.040 --> 07:04.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: right?
[07:04.260 --> 07:11.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: So you could, we had to figure out what the exchanges were in Alaska, and we'd just call up people in Anchorage and talk.
[07:12.800 --> 07:13.280]  Wow.
[07:14.140 --> 07:15.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I know.
[07:16.820 --> 07:18.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's part of my misspent youth.
[07:19.140 --> 07:21.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, actually, I think that was not a waste of time at all.
[07:21.720 --> 07:25.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was some of my fondest memories was, you know, doing similar things.
[07:25.460 --> 07:27.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was more of a blue box type than a red box type.
[07:28.520 --> 07:30.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And to me, red boxing just seemed too easy.
[07:30.240 --> 07:34.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just hold a box up to a payphone, goes beep five times, and you get a free call.
[07:34.520 --> 07:37.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, but blue boxing, you had to route things.
[07:37.680 --> 07:40.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: You had to, you know, you heard it in the recording before the show.
[07:40.620 --> 07:43.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: You heard what were known as multi-frequency tones, MF tones.
[07:43.700 --> 07:49.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those are the tones, I describe it to people, you know, in the Pink Floyd song, where they make the phone call, those tones.
[07:50.400 --> 07:51.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everyone recognizes that.
[07:51.640 --> 07:54.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't remember the tones from their lives so much.
[07:54.760 --> 07:59.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: But those were the actual phone company routing tones.
[07:59.240 --> 08:17.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you could do that, if you could seize a line using 2600 hertz and enter those multi-frequency tones, you could not only route free calls in your area or in the country, you could route all around the world and talk to internal operators and get to numbers that you could never reach otherwise.
[08:18.760 --> 08:26.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, those were the days, those were the days, you know, if blue boxing was still possible when I was a teenager, I would have done it, for sure.
[08:27.220 --> 08:32.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it was a distant memory, I think, you know, those analog switches were, were long gone.
[08:32.740 --> 08:36.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: We had switched over to the digital 5ESS switches.
[08:36.580 --> 08:41.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, yeah, that's all history.
[08:41.840 --> 08:44.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, this, this is actually a very good opportunity to mention something.
[08:45.280 --> 08:48.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kyle and I visited a very interesting place over the weekend.
[08:48.620 --> 08:50.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't even know this existed.
[08:50.190 --> 08:52.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the Long Island Telephone Museum.
[08:52.860 --> 08:56.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's located in the central office in Commack, New York.
[08:57.160 --> 08:57.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's in Suffolk County.
[08:58.380 --> 09:04.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: And these guys, they're open the first Sunday of every month from 1 to 4 p.m.
[09:04.690 --> 09:07.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's the most amazing thing.
[09:07.170 --> 09:09.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have all kinds of old payphones.
[09:10.160 --> 09:15.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have all sorts of models of desk phones and key systems.
[09:16.160 --> 09:22.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it was, it blew me away, the amount of, of memorabilia they have collected.
[09:22.280 --> 09:27.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it is just such an incredibly positive experience to just see all this on display.
[09:29.420 --> 09:34.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you can take your time looking it over, examining it, taking pictures.
[09:34.900 --> 09:37.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: You meet other people that are there for the same reasons.
[09:37.240 --> 09:38.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: We, we brought the 2600 van.
[09:39.040 --> 09:46.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Within, within five seconds of parking, we had an old guy coming up to us saying, yeah, I, I knew about boxing back in the day.
[09:47.000 --> 09:47.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're everywhere.
[09:48.080 --> 09:48.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're everywhere.
[09:48.670 --> 09:51.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: We parked the van on any corner and we're going to get people like that walking up.
[09:51.740 --> 09:52.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's great.
[09:57.840 --> 10:00.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And museum.com and all the details are there.
[10:00.670 --> 10:01.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[10:01.140 --> 10:02.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope they keep expanding.
[10:02.690 --> 10:11.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And those places tend to, uh, because the interest is strong and it takes, um, the kind of curiosity and random visits and support.
[10:11.930 --> 10:16.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know they also probably do like special events and educational tours and stuff like that.
[10:16.430 --> 10:20.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that, that's really important because it teaches people about communication systems.
[10:20.450 --> 10:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And even like Alex said, stuff that's outdated.
[10:22.450 --> 10:40.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think for me, it was very instructive and exciting because it made me think about other ways and other, uh, systems that I could learn how they worked and, and, uh, and have fun with it, tinkering and playing around with them, uh, anew, uh, in ways that hadn't been explored yet.
[10:40.990 --> 10:53.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that, that kind of fun with, uh, electric, electronic and electromechanical systems that are all around us can be really, really, um, exciting and lead, lead other things too.
[10:53.640 --> 10:55.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, you can get involved in these places.
[10:55.560 --> 11:03.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can learn more about administering these kinds of systems and, and, and all the different types of expertise it takes to run it.
[11:03.620 --> 11:03.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[11:03.780 --> 11:13.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you're a teacher and I know a lot of teachers listen to us, um, you can, uh, um, uh, bring your class out to this place, arrange a field trip, and, uh, they'll be happy to, uh, give you a tour.
[11:14.210 --> 11:14.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It'd be most amazing.
[11:14.970 --> 11:15.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Rob.
[11:15.840 --> 11:18.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, so you said this place is in a central office.
[11:18.780 --> 11:20.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is this like a working central office?
[11:20.800 --> 11:22.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Like, is this still a telephone company place?
[11:22.700 --> 11:28.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: It is a working central office, but they have very thick walls between the museum and the actual central office part.
[11:28.730 --> 11:33.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not that there's a whole lot in the central office anymore because, um, uh, and, and people might not know this.
[11:34.080 --> 11:36.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, every community has what's known as a central office.
[11:36.440 --> 11:41.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Usually it's, it's a building that's, uh, compliant, comprised of brick entirely, might not even have any windows.
[11:41.470 --> 11:45.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and it's, uh, it has a logo of one of the names the phone company went by.
[11:45.940 --> 11:48.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: New York Telephone, NYNEX, Bell Atlantic, Verizon, you name it.
[11:49.300 --> 11:54.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and inside there is the, um, switching equipment for your local telephone exchange.
[11:54.620 --> 12:00.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know a lot of people use cell phones now, you might not even use a landline, but that equipment is still there.
[12:00.680 --> 12:08.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's gone from mechanical, uh, equipment, which took up an entire building to electronic and digital equipment, which takes up a fraction of that space.
[12:08.990 --> 12:11.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the buildings are still there in every community.
[12:11.920 --> 12:16.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is one, and this one happens to be in Commack, which is on the North shore of Suffolk County.
[12:16.710 --> 12:20.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, yeah, they, they've got a, they've got a good amount of space devoted to this.
[12:20.800 --> 12:39.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, there are, uh, full-size payphone booths with, uh, with mannequins inside them, um, making phone calls, obviously, uh, there are, um, uh, representations of what an operator station was like, um, answering machines, old answering machines, huge, big answering machines that you would not believe.
[12:40.710 --> 12:55.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: All kinds of tooling and, uh, some really good, uh, hands-on displays that show you the different types of cable, outside plant equipment, the stuff that it takes to get the calls from place to place.
[12:55.460 --> 12:56.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: All of that's kind of interesting.
[12:57.080 --> 13:13.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and some, uh, examples of modern installations, um, and, uh, old literature, statements, bills, historical stuff that, um, I don't know, just, it, it, it has its own sense of, um, mystique around it.
[13:14.020 --> 13:30.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: You, you get this feeling of livelihood of all the kinds of ways people were using this equipment and, and, and how, um, sort of every day it is, uh, we all, uh, use the same kinds of technology or pay, maybe pay the same kinds of bills to this day.
[13:30.920 --> 13:41.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, albeit maybe a much greater expense, but just exploring that and, and, um, seeing how much it has changed and how much it hasn't at all, I think is really fun.
[13:41.990 --> 13:44.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's also a lot of stuff from inside.
[13:44.020 --> 14:02.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like if you never worked in the telephone, um, uh, conglomerates, I guess, any one of the companies or for a large one, or, um, maybe you had relatives, you realize there's this whole culture within it that is kind of interesting, um, awards and achievements.
[14:02.600 --> 14:13.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, there was a great display of all the pins and, uh, various, um, uh, things that, uh, would be given to, to managers and people along the way in their careers and stuff.
[14:13.990 --> 14:15.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: That that's kind of fun to, to see.
[14:16.600 --> 14:17.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[14:17.320 --> 14:17.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alex, go ahead.
[14:19.210 --> 14:24.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, what I don't understand about this place is that, you know, I grew up on Long Island.
[14:24.420 --> 14:26.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was a phone phreak in, in the nineties.
[14:26.760 --> 14:33.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, how did neither I nor you guys know about this place until this last week?
[14:33.880 --> 14:34.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[14:34.280 --> 14:39.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I had heard about it before through, uh, through Newsday, the, the, uh, Long Island newspaper.
[14:40.040 --> 14:45.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but it was weird because the story they printed said that the telephone museum was reopening after the pandemic.
[14:46.160 --> 14:50.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's, that's, it was kind of Orwellian because, well, I don't remember it ever being open.
[14:50.880 --> 14:51.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't remember it ever existing.
[14:52.120 --> 14:55.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but I'm just going to accept that there's a part of that history.
[14:55.400 --> 14:56.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just didn't know about.
[14:56.940 --> 14:59.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, they certainly do have a museum there.
[14:59.340 --> 14:59.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It is real.
[15:00.060 --> 15:03.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those that's, it's real equipment and they, they know what they're doing.
[15:04.180 --> 15:04.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Gila, go ahead.
[15:05.520 --> 15:09.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, I was deep diving cause I still consider myself the research department.
[15:09.820 --> 15:15.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I was reading some stuff and it appears that the museum has been closed since before the pandemic.
[15:15.640 --> 15:17.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: It said reopening after four years.
[15:17.640 --> 15:20.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: So mathing it out, it's been longer than that.
[15:20.640 --> 15:26.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, the fact that this is completely volunteer, um, produced is incredible.
[15:27.460 --> 15:32.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you know, the new vision pioneers, I'm just fascinated by that conceptually.
[15:32.490 --> 15:35.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like they're the folks who are running this organization.
[15:36.560 --> 15:43.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, but yeah, I am baffled that all you people on Long Island had no idea that this was in your own backyard.
[15:43.700 --> 15:44.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
[15:44.020 --> 15:45.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't make it about us on Long Island.
[15:45.470 --> 15:46.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: All phone phreaks everywhere.
[15:46.920 --> 15:47.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: That includes you guys.
[15:48.490 --> 15:52.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, none of us knew about this and, um, it's, it's pretty incredible.
[15:53.100 --> 15:54.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, but, but they didn't know about us either.
[15:55.100 --> 15:58.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, uh, it's like we're living in different isolated worlds.
[15:58.660 --> 16:01.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: They were amazed by the phone company van that we have.
[16:01.600 --> 16:06.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what's even amazing is that they have an even older phone company van.
[16:06.860 --> 16:17.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know that, um, I don't think you guys are old enough for this, but I just, I just had this memory jarred recently, but New York telephone trucks used to be green, used to not have stripes on them at all.
[16:17.540 --> 16:19.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: It used to be kind of like an olive green.
[16:19.440 --> 16:24.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I remember those trucks as a child, but I had not thought about that in many, many years.
[16:24.940 --> 16:32.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I can't find pictures of them anywhere, but, um, these folks have one, they have one and it's, uh, it's, it's pretty incredible.
[16:32.320 --> 16:33.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: It beats the 2600 van.
[16:34.020 --> 16:39.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to add that these places are very hard to run and, and, um, this place is, is growing.
[16:39.960 --> 16:58.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I think it was, um, it's, it's the kind of thing that it was a chapter for the pioneers or that, that it was, uh, a meeting space and, um, a place that was collecting things like, uh, phones and the, the possibility is really, really inspiring.
[16:58.040 --> 17:00.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it takes people checking it out.
[17:00.470 --> 17:07.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we, we found it was pretty well attended to when the, uh, the doors were open, um, uh, this weekend.
[17:07.060 --> 17:21.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that itself is a good sign, but, um, it's the kind of place that needs more interest, more, um, building and stuff, uh, and that people will come around, uh, projects and, and get together.
[17:21.960 --> 17:38.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: If someone drops off a big piece of equipment or if they're doing something, um, I, I like more outreach oriented, um, the place itself attracts that kind of, um, uh, uh, interested, I don't know, affinity group.
[17:39.280 --> 17:43.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and that, that is the best part getting, uh, people that don't know much about it.
[17:43.820 --> 18:06.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, they're hands on checking stuff out so that they can tell friends and they can maybe, um, explore stuff, but expanding that, um, makes it easier to work on stuff together, whether it is like, um, uh, service project in the community or something like building on site as far as like an exhibit or something you can take to,
[18:07.020 --> 18:17.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: um, to, uh, have as a spectacle at like, um, other events to promote the place, but it all takes so much, uh, to volunteer and, and put it together.
[18:18.210 --> 18:26.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, uh, the fact that they're able to reopen and get, get people through there is, is a good sign because it'll galvanize that in the future.
[18:27.940 --> 18:28.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[18:28.680 --> 18:36.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, there is, um, uh, a connection with the Telephone Pioneers of America, uh, which I believe you had a t-shirt of, you gave a talk at Hope about the Telephone Pioneers.
[18:36.820 --> 18:37.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[18:37.280 --> 18:42.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're a national organization of, of people that have worked in, in the telephone industry.
[18:42.400 --> 18:49.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so I believe this was a, um, a chapter, the museum itself seems to have an affiliation.
[18:49.360 --> 19:07.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't chat them up about it and I'm sure they could tell you exactly, um, who has, uh, membership, but that definitely is, as I think, uh, uh, a group throughout the kind of fledgling, um, national network of, of telephone museums.
[19:07.200 --> 19:09.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're a strong steering group.
[19:09.880 --> 19:24.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, basically, um, the types of folks that can help, uh, uh, basically guarantee space through, through like working central offices and, uh, come up with, uh, people to staff it and lead the tours and so forth.
[19:24.860 --> 19:25.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alex, you had something?
[19:27.820 --> 19:28.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alex?
[19:28.460 --> 19:28.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[19:28.920 --> 19:33.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, I just wanted to say, you know, it, it seems like it's not open very often.
[19:33.680 --> 19:37.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you said the first Sunday of every month and it's only open for three hours.
[19:37.400 --> 19:37.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is that right?
[19:37.920 --> 19:38.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah.
[19:38.580 --> 19:49.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, it's open by appointment if, uh, if, like I said, if you have a, a, a bunch of third graders or something that wants to see a telephone, uh, some telephone history, uh, they can make arrangements with you.
[19:49.100 --> 19:51.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, it's a volunteer, uh, it's a volunteer job.
[19:51.360 --> 19:54.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Look, we only have meetings once a month, you know, for about the same amount of time.
[19:54.840 --> 19:56.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: It takes time, it takes work.
[19:56.210 --> 19:58.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the fact that this place exists at all is, is a miracle.
[19:59.710 --> 20:01.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, I'm, I'm in agreement with you there.
[20:01.400 --> 20:04.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: It sounds like there should be a, a, a 2,600 field trip there.
[20:05.100 --> 20:07.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there was one this past weekend.
[20:07.320 --> 20:08.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, there were a lot of people there.
[20:08.920 --> 20:16.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: So check it out if you, if you're in the area or if you have a telephone museum near you, take some people and, and just have fun looking at some of it.
[20:17.180 --> 20:24.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it reminds me of the, uh, telecommunications museum out in Seattle, which is, uh, famed for, uh, for what it, um, brings to people.
[20:24.860 --> 20:25.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, absolutely.
[20:25.770 --> 20:31.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of what I mentioned is like these places, you know, every once in a while, the, the weekends are there.
[20:31.990 --> 20:36.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, somebody stops by and says, you know, I've got this, um, 5ESS.
[20:37.140 --> 20:38.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I need to drop off.
[20:38.360 --> 20:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, I don't know where to store it.
[20:40.360 --> 20:42.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: They do not got to clean out my garage.
[20:42.340 --> 20:46.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Stuff like that happens in these collections grow, uh, over time.
[20:46.970 --> 20:50.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, well, the difference there is in, it's incredible.
[20:50.470 --> 20:51.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's called, what's the official name?
[20:51.920 --> 20:53.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: The telecommunications museum.
[20:53.200 --> 20:54.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that, is that, uh, its name?
[20:55.080 --> 21:00.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah, it's changed names over the years, but the museum of communications, the telephone history museum.
[21:00.710 --> 21:05.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have working equipment there where you can actually place calls using old equipment, which is kind of cool.
[21:06.230 --> 21:06.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[21:07.050 --> 21:08.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very cool.
[21:08.360 --> 21:17.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, um, yeah, it's got demonstrations, basically, um, uh, negative 48 volt power supply from the, the central office.
[21:17.250 --> 21:18.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then it also connects.
[21:18.790 --> 21:19.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll bet they could do that.
[21:19.970 --> 21:20.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: A couple of phone lines.
[21:21.080 --> 21:26.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's, um, many different teletype and, um, all working UNIX systems.
[21:26.940 --> 21:28.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Even I could go on and on about that.
[21:28.420 --> 21:30.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's, that's also in a central office, right?
[21:30.730 --> 21:31.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[21:31.360 --> 21:31.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[21:31.700 --> 21:52.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's got, uh, two floors and they're, um, basically connected and the exhibit, you can basically go up and down, um, through different displays and see each generation of, uh, functioning switch, see it work, uh, see it in like tests states and, um, maybe even,
[21:53.140 --> 21:55.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: uh, uh, some of the working demonstrations.
[21:55.420 --> 21:57.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's got smaller switches.
[21:57.550 --> 22:05.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's got some really, really interesting stuff, but it's been, uh, uh, something that people have been contributing to for, for a really long time.
[22:05.440 --> 22:09.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and it's, it takes a lot of work and a lot of energy to collect that.
[22:09.720 --> 22:17.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they've got an incredible library of all the BSP manuals, um, which are the bell system protocols.
[22:17.290 --> 22:29.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, just, just like, uh, the microfilm and, uh, all the information and history at these places is, it's incredible just what, what people have saved.
[22:29.580 --> 22:49.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it would have been thrown out and, and dumped if, if it wasn't, um, taken care of and people didn't appreciate that it has sort of a place in people's understanding of what it took, um, in a corporate sense to, uh, in a business sense to, to have this technological,
[22:49.880 --> 22:59.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: um, uh, uh, like abundance emerge and then now, um, you know, be what it is today.
[22:59.080 --> 23:02.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just want to read a couple of lines from their website and then we'll move on to other things.
[23:02.640 --> 23:07.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, in, uh, many other museums, things can only be seen in our museum.
[23:07.520 --> 23:13.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Visitors can handle, listen to, and touch, uh, authentic, interactive exhibits and artifacts.
[23:14.240 --> 23:27.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Long Island Telephone Museum has numerous mannequins and, uh, animatronics to showcase our, uh, many displays, um, uh, on operations, uh, service and the history of communications.
[23:27.220 --> 23:40.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the Pioneers, Telephone Pioneers of America, founded in 1911 with the help of Alexander Graham Bell, now consists of active and retired employees who volunteer thousands of hours of community service each year.
[23:40.840 --> 23:45.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And again, their website is longislandtelephonemuseum.com.
[23:45.550 --> 23:49.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I understand also they have an Instagram account, Long Island Telephone Museum.
[23:50.020 --> 23:53.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, the address is 445 Commack Road, Commack, New York.
[23:53.620 --> 23:56.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, open first Sunday of every month from 1 to 4 p.m. and by appointment.
[23:58.050 --> 24:00.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, look them up.
[24:00.200 --> 24:01.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Pretty, pretty amazing.
[24:01.760 --> 24:04.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I, you know, it makes me wonder what else is out there that we don't know about.
[24:06.110 --> 24:08.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, um, some of the news this week.
[24:08.840 --> 24:22.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Last week we talked about, uh, how the MTA has, um, abandoned Twitter because Twitter wanted them to pay $50,000 a month for something they were using for free, namely a means of getting, uh, scheduled notifications out to the public.
[24:23.040 --> 24:31.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, MTA felt it wasn't, uh, right to be charging, uh, $50,000 for the privilege of being able to, um, uh, tell people things like that.
[24:31.420 --> 24:33.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and Twitter has now backtracked.
[24:33.920 --> 24:48.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: A week after announcing it would stop using Twitter, uh, to post updates on delays, service outages, and other traveler information, the agency has reversed course after Twitter dropped its demand that government agencies like the MTA pay 50 grand a month for access.
[24:48.600 --> 24:59.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the MTA had also earlier said it was worried the service had become unreliable under the ownership of Elon Musk, but officials said Thursday they received assurances writers could count on the alerts.
[24:59.200 --> 25:05.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: The MTA informed Twitter senior management that it would not pay to provide the public with critical service information.
[25:06.140 --> 25:13.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Twitter got the message and reversed its plan to charge the MTA more than half a million dollars per year for, for these alerts.
[25:13.260 --> 25:15.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: So now no transit agency will need to pay.
[25:16.500 --> 25:17.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's good news, right?
[25:17.900 --> 25:28.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, apparently if you speak loudly enough, uh, these, um, these companies will hear you and will actually take action or, or stop taking bad actions.
[25:31.450 --> 25:42.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it's, it's really interesting though, because, um, so many of these moves by Twitter management, um, and by that it, I primarily mean the, the really impulsive dude who has been in control of it.
[25:42.790 --> 25:50.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, you know, they, they have made so many things that were seen as bad moves and they're like, oh yeah, okay, we won't do that then.
[25:50.670 --> 25:57.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: But they have really lost the trust of people who had grown to depend on this sort of thing, uh, from them.
[25:58.130 --> 26:05.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: So yeah, they, um, they could, they could invite like, you know, radio stations back on that had decided to leave.
[26:05.150 --> 26:08.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: They can invite, uh, you know, public utilities back on that had decided to leave.
[26:08.910 --> 26:17.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, you know, when, when anyone goes back onto the service, they're still under the threat of like, what if he changes his mind someday and we find ourselves, you know, crap out of luck.
[26:18.010 --> 26:28.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so this is, this is really, this is really just, uh, I think opened our eyes to, um, what it means to depend upon sort of an unrelated third-party for information like this.
[26:30.050 --> 26:30.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[26:31.390 --> 26:33.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, how do I get my blue check back?
[26:33.390 --> 26:36.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, that's the big challenge at this stage, but, uh, we'll get to that.
[26:36.950 --> 26:37.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll get to that at some point.
[26:38.430 --> 26:40.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, the craziness continues.
[26:40.790 --> 26:41.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Gila, go ahead.
[26:41.590 --> 27:05.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: But one thing I did discover is that during the period of time when the MTA was not using the API, um, a user, a random user, um, a man named Will Davis jumped in to use the user level API, the $100 tier, basically just feeding it straight in.
[27:05.490 --> 27:27.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, from other updates, sorry, I'm looking, calling it the MTA alert bot, um, pulling data from the MTA's general transit feed specification and basically just doing this in, you know, in the hacker spirit and, um, was not, pardon me, not pulling in bus information because,
[27:27.870 --> 27:41.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: um, you know, it would have broken the API, but at the $100 level, I thought it was a very interesting way that this dude jumped in to kind of stop gap.
[27:41.730 --> 27:46.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, how did people, um, get his updates?
[27:47.310 --> 27:52.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, they just subscribed to this, I think he's gone, is it still up?
[27:52.330 --> 27:52.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: I see it.
[27:53.270 --> 27:59.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: The second one down there, um, has not tweeted in a week.
[27:59.190 --> 28:08.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I think it may have, once the API, once the MTA got back on the API, I think he may have dropped out.
[28:08.470 --> 28:11.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or maybe everything is running on time for a week.
[28:12.270 --> 28:13.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: That could happen.
[28:13.850 --> 28:15.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, it could, it could happen.
[28:16.030 --> 28:18.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: I would like tickets to the world where you're living, if that is the case.
[28:19.070 --> 28:21.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, um, yes.
[28:22.010 --> 28:29.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: The, the screen name of this, um, account that he had set up is MTA underscore alerts underscore bot.
[28:29.370 --> 28:31.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And did it have a blue check?
[28:31.190 --> 28:32.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because you can just buy them now.
[28:33.470 --> 28:34.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, here's the thing.
[28:34.750 --> 28:37.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Imagine this Will Davis character was evil.
[28:37.350 --> 28:37.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[28:37.690 --> 28:42.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: And just wanted to spread bad information, was able to get a blue check, have a username that says MTA in it somewhere.
[28:43.150 --> 28:44.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: How would you know the difference?
[28:44.530 --> 28:49.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the only way you could possibly know is if you look into the history, saw who had more followers, who was around longer.
[28:50.090 --> 29:00.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, the problem with Twitter right now is that, um, uh, there is no actual verification that something is real as opposed to completely made up and bogus.
[29:01.230 --> 29:03.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and I don't know how they're going to get that trust back.
[29:05.390 --> 29:06.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nor do I.
[29:06.510 --> 29:25.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the fact that they're now talking about getting purging accounts that haven't been used in however long, how, uh, I'm again, thinking about people who used to have Twitter accounts who are no longer living and how we're not going to have a mass impersonation of dead people.
[29:25.210 --> 29:26.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is so simple to solve though.
[29:26.990 --> 29:31.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: You, you can have, um, um, uh, archived sites of people who have passed away.
[29:32.610 --> 29:44.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's simply a way of, uh, of, of coordinating that, but they have to take an interest in doing it so that those sites are preserved, not taken over by fake people and not presumed to be inactive simply because the people aren't alive anymore.
[29:45.550 --> 29:51.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but at the same time, other, uh, accounts, which just were abandoned by people for lack of interest.
[29:51.890 --> 29:52.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:52.350 --> 29:54.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: They shouldn't just be lying around for 10 years.
[29:54.150 --> 29:57.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, you know, a great example of that is one that we've been trying to get for years.
[29:57.530 --> 30:05.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this is something Elon Musk could actually help with if he was truly interested in this because the old Twitter wasn't able to do anything about it, but there is the Twitter account called hope.
[30:05.950 --> 30:08.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we run a conference called hope hackers on planet earth.
[30:08.690 --> 30:10.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: We would love to have that Twitter account.
[30:10.670 --> 30:11.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: It has not tweeted in years.
[30:12.410 --> 30:14.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not run by anybody.
[30:14.650 --> 30:15.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: How do we get it?
[30:15.870 --> 30:17.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've tried, we've asked, we've done all kinds of things.
[30:18.430 --> 30:26.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, I just know it's going to wind up in the hands of somebody who is going to squat on it or try to sell it for millions of dollars or something like that.
[30:26.250 --> 30:27.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, boy, that would be nice.
[30:27.710 --> 30:28.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: That'd be nice.
[30:28.230 --> 30:30.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: If we could actually get something out of this.
[30:32.450 --> 30:33.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: At what cost?
[30:33.830 --> 30:34.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: At what cost?
[30:34.970 --> 30:35.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: No cost.
[30:36.110 --> 30:39.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Twitter doesn't cost anything except for your brain cells.
[30:40.010 --> 30:40.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[30:40.750 --> 30:45.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, thank you to, uh, uh, our program director, Linda, for forwarding this piece of news to us.
[30:45.610 --> 30:56.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, New York attorney general, Letitia James has secured $615,000 from three companies, LCX, uh, lead ID, or is it lead ID?
[30:56.750 --> 30:57.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not really sure.
[30:57.670 --> 31:14.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: And efficient spelled wrong spelled with an I instead of an E, which I don't know if that makes many less efficient, but anyway, they supplied millions of fake public comments to influence a 2017 proceeding by the federal communications commission to repeal net neutrality rules.
[31:14.950 --> 31:18.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Remember that we reported on this, uh, fake comments, lots and lots of fake comments.
[31:19.350 --> 31:27.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, uh, net neutrality, it's broadband providers from blocking, uh, slowing down or charging companies to prioritize certain content on the Internet.
[31:28.070 --> 31:38.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, an investigation by the office of the attorney general found that the fake comments use the identities of millions of consumers, including thousands of New Yorkers without their knowledge or consent.
[31:38.670 --> 31:44.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, collectively, the three companies have agreed to pay $615,000 in penalties and disgorgement.
[31:45.230 --> 31:50.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, okay, Alex, I'm going to ask you one in God's name is disgorgement.
[31:50.450 --> 31:54.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, where's the $615,000 go and how does it help the situation?
[31:56.290 --> 32:04.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, the, the disgorgement essentially means that it's, you know, it was money that they made from the activity that they shouldn't have been performing.
[32:04.830 --> 32:07.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: And so now they're being disgorged right now.
[32:08.050 --> 32:09.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now it's being taken away from them.
[32:10.070 --> 32:28.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, this is fascinating though, because yeah, this really confirms what we were talking about several years ago, which we had all suspected that there was astroturfing of these particular comments, but what's really odd to me, and I, I'm not aware of the story until you just read it moments ago.
[32:28.510 --> 32:39.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's odd to me is that there are some corporate structures associated with that astroturfing so that this was some kind of service that people had purchased, uh, perhaps as a massive scale.
[32:40.210 --> 32:46.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: What, what would be really interesting to me is, you know, for what else did they provide these bogus comments?
[32:47.870 --> 32:54.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's a great point because the, to the logical, logic might follow that.
[32:54.910 --> 32:55.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[32:55.170 --> 32:56.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: So who were the clients?
[32:56.830 --> 33:12.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because if that's their business, this, this might be just a cost of doing business that they're, they're going to write off based on their clientele, you know, already having, you know, uh, foot the bill for, for whatever activities they were doing.
[33:13.130 --> 33:13.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[33:13.630 --> 33:18.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can I just, uh, read a bit of this press release because, uh, it really, I think gives an idea how sleazy this was.
[33:19.150 --> 33:38.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, basically, uh, this is all part of an investigation, uh, by, uh, OAG, uh, the office of the attorney general, um, it uncovered widespread fraud and abusive, uh, practices, uh, surrounding efforts to sway the FCC and the agency's 2017 net neutrality rulemaking proceeding.
[33:38.890 --> 33:49.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: As detailed in a report by OAG, the nation's largest broadband companies funded a secret campaign to generate millions of comments to the FCC in 2017.
[33:49.550 --> 33:54.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: These comments provided cover for the FCC to repeal net neutrality rules.
[33:54.550 --> 34:07.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: To help generate these comments, the broadband industry engaged commercial lead generators that used advertisements and prizes like gift cards and sweepstakes entries to encourage consumers to join the campaign.
[34:07.810 --> 34:17.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, nearly every lead generator that was, that was, um, hired to enroll consumers in the campaign instead simply fabricated consumers responses.
[34:17.230 --> 34:27.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: As a result, more than eight and a half million fake comments that impersonated real people were submitted to the FCC and more than half a million fake letters were sent to Congress.
[34:28.250 --> 34:31.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, this is, how are people not going to jail for this?
[34:31.850 --> 34:32.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't get that.
[34:32.630 --> 34:38.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Six hundred fifteen thousand dollars seems like nothing, uh, as, as a penalty for this kind of fraud.
[34:38.750 --> 34:45.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, you know, the, the, the, uh, the FCC ruled on this and they did not rule in a good way.
[34:45.810 --> 34:49.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, should this be reversed as a result of all this?
[34:51.310 --> 34:54.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that light as far as charges.
[34:55.690 --> 34:56.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[34:56.130 --> 34:57.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I, I agree.
[34:57.470 --> 34:58.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: I agree with, with Kyle.
[34:59.250 --> 35:04.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, six hundred fifteen grand does not seem like a success story here for the attorney general, I have to say.
[35:04.970 --> 35:14.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, I had no idea that they actually concluded that the clientele were the broadband companies here that, that actually profit from the repeal of net neutrality rules.
[35:15.030 --> 35:16.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is totally insane.
[35:16.690 --> 35:18.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, this should be a much, much bigger story.
[35:18.910 --> 35:19.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[35:19.270 --> 35:24.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: It sounds like, it sounds like they were insulated by, uh, having contracted them.
[35:25.310 --> 35:32.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and I mean, to that end, it sounds like they got away with it straight up because we know how the, the FCC ruled.
[35:33.610 --> 35:34.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[35:34.230 --> 35:50.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, the, the only way in which I think that would be a reasonable conclusion of this investigation would be if the broadband companies contracted with this lead company, whatever it is, this corporate entity that provided essentially AstroTurfing as a service.
[35:50.790 --> 35:56.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the broadband companies had no idea what they were doing on their behalf.
[35:57.210 --> 36:04.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: But you do have to assume some responsibility for the actions of your agents, right?
[36:04.690 --> 36:06.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, you hired them to do something.
[36:06.590 --> 36:08.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: What, what did the contract say?
[36:08.550 --> 36:11.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: What was it that they thought they were going to be doing?
[36:11.350 --> 36:12.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: And was there any auditing?
[36:12.490 --> 36:21.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I'd love to see the, the communications about this at the time, because this really does seem like an issue of public trust.
[36:21.650 --> 36:31.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, and if an agency action was predicated on those comments, coming from what they thought were real people, then the agency action to me seems to be invalid.
[36:31.970 --> 36:42.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think there would be grounds to bring, um, uh, a lawsuit alleging that the agency action was in fact arbitrary and capricious or not, not predicated properly.
[36:42.590 --> 36:42.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[36:42.970 --> 36:44.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't seem nearly strong enough.
[36:45.110 --> 36:53.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, as far as I'm concerned, a reaction to this should be outraged, not just on the part of the attorney general, on the part of all of us, you know, this is outrageous.
[36:53.730 --> 36:55.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, you're right.
[36:55.050 --> 36:57.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: It should be, it should be much more in the news.
[36:57.410 --> 36:58.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: It should be headlines in every newspaper.
[36:58.890 --> 36:59.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead, Rob.
[37:00.030 --> 37:05.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it should definitely be much more in the news, but, um, about the 615,000, not being enough punishment.
[37:05.690 --> 37:14.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, I think if you look at it, it is, as this was the attorney general of New York, uh, getting, um, getting it back for the New Yorkers who were affected by this.
[37:15.090 --> 37:22.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there are 40 more, there are 49 more states in the union with, uh, their own attorneys general who can now follow suit, um, so to speak.
[37:22.530 --> 37:34.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, so if this, uh, if this piles up, if more states, uh, take, uh, take, take the lead on this and, uh, and follow up, um, this could turn out to be a lot more of a punishment for them.
[37:34.550 --> 37:40.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have you, have you seen some of the attorneys general in, did I say that right, Alex attorneys general in other States?
[37:41.230 --> 37:49.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, they're too busy fighting the trans community and making sure nobody ever gets an abortion again, uh, to, to care about people actually being defrauded in this manner.
[37:49.750 --> 37:54.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, my, my hopes are high, but realistically, I don't know.
[37:57.170 --> 37:57.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[37:57.590 --> 38:01.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, um, we have, uh, this update for, uh, for Google.
[38:01.830 --> 38:09.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know, if you, um, try this folks, if you go to Google news, right, as a, as a technology section, I just, I just tried this a little before the show.
[38:09.770 --> 38:11.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know about that section.
[38:11.350 --> 38:12.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know about that section?
[38:12.150 --> 38:12.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[38:12.370 --> 38:18.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you get a bunch of technology, uh, uh, headlines, maybe six of them, but you can click on the word technology.
[38:18.310 --> 38:20.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then you get a whole lot of stories.
[38:20.370 --> 38:20.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[38:20.550 --> 38:21.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's all of them.
[38:21.490 --> 38:27.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I noticed that the first, uh, like at least 10, maybe a dozen stories are only about Google.
[38:28.410 --> 38:28.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[38:29.090 --> 38:29.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have you noticed that?
[38:29.910 --> 38:32.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then below that, there's nothing about it's all Apple.
[38:33.190 --> 38:34.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all Twitter.
[38:34.330 --> 38:38.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's other, other companies, but they really put themselves up on top.
[38:38.590 --> 38:38.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now.
[38:38.770 --> 38:40.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think that was a coincidence.
[38:40.370 --> 38:41.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, not at all.
[38:41.430 --> 38:48.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this section in general for like news, I've found it's, it's a little, it's hard to take.
[38:49.110 --> 38:50.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: It really is.
[38:50.190 --> 38:50.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a lot.
[38:50.850 --> 39:03.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's all sort of, um, industry self, um, aggrandizement or something like you, like you said, it's, it's these four companies.
[39:03.150 --> 39:11.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very highly concentrated, just certain types of, of, uh, technology and that's it.
[39:11.170 --> 39:14.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like it really narrows what technology is.
[39:14.410 --> 39:23.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I find, and, and in fact prefer the science, uh, category over technology because it's just so commercial it's.
[39:23.570 --> 39:28.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And like you, and now, yeah, like just one company, the very company that you're, you're using this news filter on.
[39:29.550 --> 39:30.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yes, Rob.
[39:31.190 --> 39:31.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[39:31.850 --> 39:37.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, I pulled it up just now and, you know, even allowing for different people getting different Google results, cause that's how it works.
[39:38.050 --> 39:44.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now the first eight results on this page are Google's releasing this Google's producing that Google's doing this.
[39:44.210 --> 39:44.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Isn't it great?
[39:45.030 --> 39:49.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, the eighth story is, uh, is not about Google.
[39:49.930 --> 39:53.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Instead it's about, uh, Elon Musk, uh, slamming Meta's WhatsApp.
[39:54.210 --> 39:57.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: So it's not about Google, but it's about how terrible their competition is.
[39:58.850 --> 40:00.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, Android too.
[40:00.150 --> 40:02.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes the Android story will slip in there, which is also Google.
[40:03.050 --> 40:03.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[40:03.610 --> 40:07.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: After that, the ninth story is, uh, now about a vulnerability in Windows.
[40:07.870 --> 40:09.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, but it's a vulnerability again.
[40:10.250 --> 40:11.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's, it's something bad.
[40:12.030 --> 40:22.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not, it's not, uh, Microsoft is releasing this and I'm not saying Microsoft needs any more positive platforms, but, um, I think this is kind of an abuse of a news aggregator.
[40:23.210 --> 40:39.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, well, and you're so, um, focused on your own brand, it seems like you could maybe reserve that for what everybody else is doing, you know, that make it kind of fresh, like people that might see a lot of Google stuff because you're in that ecosystem.
[40:40.330 --> 40:47.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: How kind of eyeopening would it be to just maybe not have so much of that in that particular section?
[40:47.370 --> 40:54.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you can compare so you can see what the rest of the so-called technology, uh, uh, category is, is up to.
[40:54.930 --> 40:55.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know what I prefer though?
[40:55.970 --> 40:57.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, Google's busy.
[40:57.510 --> 40:59.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have all kinds of things going on.
[40:59.410 --> 41:01.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everything's simmering on the oven there and they're important.
[41:02.090 --> 41:03.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's take, you know, they don't have to do this.
[41:04.090 --> 41:12.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's instead have another company come up with a news aggregator that does a better job than, uh, Google news because boy, Google news has become so useless.
[41:13.210 --> 41:15.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Every story you click on, they want money to read.
[41:15.470 --> 41:18.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you can't subscribe to every newspaper in the world.
[41:18.450 --> 41:30.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what is the point of having an aggregator that shows you all these stories you could read if you were a subscriber to that particular newspaper used to be that if you went there through Google news, that, uh, you'd be able to read the story.
[41:30.830 --> 41:31.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was the whole point.
[41:31.990 --> 41:34.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now it's kind of, uh, kind of pointless.
[41:34.230 --> 41:37.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can see the headlines, not much more subscribe to a newspaper.
[41:37.970 --> 41:45.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't subscribe to all of them, but maybe like a local one that you got a soft spot for, especially a local one.
[41:45.590 --> 41:46.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[41:46.510 --> 41:46.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[41:46.710 --> 41:48.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Those, those are... Everyone did that.
[41:49.530 --> 41:53.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: You might have a lot more free stories on Google.
[41:54.130 --> 41:57.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Subscribe to, to a newspaper that, uh, you believe in.
[41:57.250 --> 42:06.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: I say the Washington post or the New York times or somebody you think is, you know, maybe they do a bad job occasionally, but mostly they do a good job, but also something local that covers your community.
[42:07.050 --> 42:08.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's run by human beings.
[42:08.350 --> 42:18.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's run by human beings that, uh, basically you're supporting them rather than just looking online and having, uh, you know, artificial intelligence do it.
[42:18.330 --> 42:19.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Cause that's, what's going to happen.
[42:19.630 --> 42:19.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alex.
[42:21.190 --> 42:30.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I think you can bring this right back full circle to the Long Island Telefilm Museum because apparently you guys learned about the museum from Newsday.
[42:30.450 --> 42:31.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[42:31.490 --> 42:31.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[42:31.970 --> 42:32.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[42:32.530 --> 42:33.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: There you go.
[42:33.590 --> 42:36.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's the, uh, there's the cause and effect.
[42:37.230 --> 42:39.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, the story I wanted to read about Google.
[42:39.970 --> 42:42.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, I, I'm, I'm glad we took that long to get to it.
[42:43.410 --> 42:49.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, they are announcing major generative AI powered updates to their search engine.
[42:49.910 --> 42:51.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what the hell does that mean?
[42:51.690 --> 43:01.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it means that Google is, uh, now, um, moving its barred, uh, artificial intelligence, um, entity into the Google search bar.
[43:01.930 --> 43:10.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, um, according to this particular story, how do we even know Google is in control of that?
[43:10.730 --> 43:13.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe bard just decided it was taking over.
[43:14.130 --> 43:14.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: This could be straight from bard.
[43:15.030 --> 43:15.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[43:15.270 --> 43:37.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: But this, this story, uh, which came from, from Yahoo or, uh, a bot that works at Yahoo, um, says that if you surface something like a good bike for five mile commute with Hills, uh, search will then provide you with the generative AI page, which will provide you with a list of suggestions for things to look for when searching for bikes for commuting.
[43:37.390 --> 43:47.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: And below that you'll see potential follow-up questions you can ask, which will pull you into a conversation panel, uh, complete with the ability to link directly to bike retailer websites.
[43:48.450 --> 43:55.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, during a live stage demo, uh, bard pulled up answers for why do whales like to sing?
[43:55.350 --> 44:02.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: The app quickly provided a list of potential reasons for why whales sing, provided images of whales and allowed the user to ask follow-up questions.
[44:03.290 --> 44:14.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Google is positioning, uh, generative AI as a future of search and as the company's most important product and largest revenue source, it's no wonder it's moving fast to add the capability to the platform.
[44:15.570 --> 44:17.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, this is going to be interesting.
[44:17.690 --> 44:25.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're going to be pulled into a conversation every time you ask a question now, uh, in, in Google might even remember previous questions that you asked.
[44:26.230 --> 44:29.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, um, I don't know, good, bad, scary.
[44:29.750 --> 44:30.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you guys think?
[44:34.360 --> 44:35.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do we think anything?
[44:36.260 --> 44:36.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody?
[44:36.820 --> 44:40.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: Look, I, I, I think, I think it's inevitable, right?
[44:40.160 --> 44:45.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I think this is something that, that Microsoft had been, uh, already putting in place.
[44:45.080 --> 44:49.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think that we see Google getting really scared about this.
[44:49.220 --> 45:02.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I think that they're rushing to get bard connected into the search engine too, because people's conception of what it means to search for information on the Internet has really changed over the last couple of months.
[45:03.020 --> 45:11.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, since the beginning of 2023, when we started talking about ChatGPT and all that it's been up to and all the amazing things that you can do.
[45:11.980 --> 45:19.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think that maybe it wasn't even the beginning of 2023, maybe it was the last quarter of 2022 when things started to really change.
[45:19.980 --> 45:32.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: But if you think about it, and we've talked about this in the past too, but you do a search for anything on Google and you have to scroll through, you know, a whole bunch of paid advertisements that nobody trusts anymore.
[45:32.640 --> 45:33.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Some of them might even be malicious.
[45:34.180 --> 45:36.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: Some of them are definitely misleading.
[45:36.660 --> 45:44.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, and it does seem like, and I'm sure Google feels like their search engine is quickly becoming outdated.
[45:44.800 --> 45:55.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they have to, to, to migrate over to this natural language searching and, and, and still have the veneer of, of a technology company that's on the cutting edge.
[45:55.880 --> 45:59.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they can't do that without plugging into the BARD system.
[45:59.420 --> 46:06.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I see them doing this as, as almost as an emergency measure to save the relevance of Google searches.
[46:07.320 --> 46:10.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, but I also wonder about whether it's premature.
[46:12.240 --> 46:23.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I, I kind of hear that, like, it may be like too early the whole diving in to it, but there's another thing that, that I'm, I'm getting out of this.
[46:23.160 --> 46:26.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's, um, it's sort of overdue and appropriate.
[46:26.740 --> 46:45.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like it, it is the, uh, technological tool that I think people are, that have, that we have been using in a way, um, that this evolution is, is really conducive to like natural language in search.
[46:45.380 --> 46:51.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: People have been talking to Google as though it was sort of AI or sentient.
[46:51.680 --> 47:03.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, maybe not without all the like arguments and, and, uh, pluses and, and things that you can do to sort of guide Google to give you better results, which there are things, you know, ways you can type and, and enter.
[47:03.920 --> 47:07.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's an entire field of study we could go off on.
[47:08.220 --> 47:11.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the point is now, um, it's sort of here.
[47:11.180 --> 47:12.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's actually here.
[47:12.420 --> 47:16.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And whenever I actually, it's just to me, a good fit.
[47:16.740 --> 47:23.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and, and I think they were pushed in a lot of ways by Microsoft, um, maybe because of their own cautiousness.
[47:24.080 --> 47:35.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: So in other words, maybe what we think might be rushed has actually been a long, long time coming, um, from the inside looking out, uh, as far as product development goes.
[47:36.240 --> 47:51.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: So there is kind of an excitement that I have for this, um, at the same time, you know, I gotta say though, um, as far as artificial intelligence, um, um, search results and, and, um, explanations of various things that you ask it.
[47:52.060 --> 47:54.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think Bard is, is, is lagging.
[47:55.120 --> 47:55.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I really do.
[47:55.900 --> 47:58.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think, uh, Chad GPT is doing a much better job.
[47:58.380 --> 48:03.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just, I just asked Bard right now, uh, briefly, tell me the history of WBAI.
[48:03.720 --> 48:05.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: I got so many facts wrong.
[48:05.300 --> 48:08.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: It said WBAI's first broadcast took place on May 1st, 1955.
[48:09.220 --> 48:09.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it didn't.
[48:09.940 --> 48:13.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: It took place, uh, in, in 1960, I believe in January.
[48:13.280 --> 48:15.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It just made up a date.
[48:15.780 --> 48:16.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah.
[48:16.900 --> 48:24.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, I get this, here are some, um, uh, some programs, uh, that have aired over, uh, WBAI Democracy Now.
[48:24.320 --> 48:24.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[48:24.580 --> 48:26.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: They got, they got, um, they got that right.
[48:27.520 --> 48:32.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, the, um, Lionel Hampton show, jazz program hosted by Lionel Hampton.
[48:32.520 --> 48:34.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Lionel Hampton do a show on WBAI?
[48:34.500 --> 48:36.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if they did, I didn't know about it.
[48:37.360 --> 48:41.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, the, the takeaway, a daily news and interview program hosted by John Hockenberry.
[48:41.740 --> 48:42.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I thought he was on NPR.
[48:43.500 --> 48:51.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but you'll see things like this all the time where all kinds of, um, things that sound right, they sound credible, but they're wrong.
[48:51.900 --> 48:52.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're fake.
[48:52.720 --> 48:54.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And yet it's presented as truth.
[48:55.760 --> 48:58.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I just worry that people are going to start believing this.
[48:58.800 --> 49:03.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and, and you can basically, um, uh, ask any question.
[49:04.340 --> 49:14.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, for instance, I, I was asking for a list of, um, of monarchs, uh, in, um, in the United Kingdom in the, um, uh, the, the, uh, 19th century.
[49:14.920 --> 49:16.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was told there were none.
[49:16.940 --> 49:18.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I know that's not true.
[49:18.940 --> 49:24.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and, um, uh, I even confronted Bard about this saying, well, look, this person was a monarch.
[49:24.580 --> 49:25.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: How do you explain that?
[49:25.920 --> 49:27.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and Bard said, Oh, I, I made a mistake.
[49:28.020 --> 49:28.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry.
[49:29.200 --> 49:34.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that's not good enough because it continues to do the same thing even after you've corrected it.
[49:34.740 --> 49:42.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I, you know, it's, it's going to be a very interesting, uh, um, um, adventure that we're all embarking on right now.
[49:42.280 --> 49:47.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm all for embarking upon it, but let's, let's, you know, not take it too seriously.
[49:47.640 --> 49:48.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's realize what we're getting into.
[49:49.760 --> 49:50.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[49:50.380 --> 49:55.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think because it could come, become, uh, very close to home.
[49:55.560 --> 50:08.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, how long before your, your home assistant, uh, device is, um, asking Bard questions or in other, or somehow fused with it.
[50:08.900 --> 50:17.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: And all of a sudden you're, you're, you're having this much more powerful conversation, uh, with your home, uh, assistant device.
[50:17.260 --> 50:20.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you can see the, you can see the pathway.
[50:20.560 --> 50:23.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Siri on your, your smartphones and so forth.
[50:23.740 --> 50:32.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there's, there's a lot of stuff here that is, uh, been sort of sizzling and it's now, uh, the foundation for something anew.
[50:33.340 --> 50:34.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, okay.
[50:34.180 --> 50:36.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: So this weekend is, uh, Eurovision.
[50:36.680 --> 50:53.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how many people in the United States know this, but, uh, Eurovision is, uh, an annual song contest, uh, and, um, experts from the national cybersecurity center have been called in after the government and Eurovision organizers raised concerns that the competition could become a digital front of the Ukraine war.
[50:54.420 --> 51:07.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, if, if, if you recall last year, Ukraine won the contest, which meant that the contest should have been held in Ukraine this year, instead of being held in England, uh, because obviously you don't want to have Eurovision in a war zone.
[51:07.460 --> 51:13.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, a senior White Hall official said the biggest worry was the potential hacking of the voting system.
[51:13.440 --> 51:22.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like last year, when police in Italy, where the contest was staged, said the Kill Net hacker group targeted the first semifinal and the grand final.
[51:22.520 --> 51:25.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, this year's contest will be held in Liverpool.
[51:25.380 --> 51:32.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It will have reinforced cyber defenses by NCSC experts working with the home office and the department, uh, for science.
[51:32.280 --> 51:44.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: In 2022, Italian police managed to thwart attacks by pro-Russian hackers at the competition in Turin, uh, especially during performances of the Kalish Orchestra, which represented Ukraine and won the contest.
[51:44.840 --> 51:51.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: We are actually going to go out with that particular song from the Kalish Orchestra, uh, the winner of last year's Eurovision.
[51:51.760 --> 52:02.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, this year's Eurovision, uh, contest will be held, um, um, in, in Liverpool this, I believe on Saturday, the final, which I'm pretty sure you can watch on YouTube.
[52:02.300 --> 52:04.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not entirely certain about that, but it's a lot of fun.
[52:05.080 --> 52:05.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: It really is.
[52:05.800 --> 52:12.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Music might not be your cup of tea, but the enthusiasm certainly is something we can all, uh, get behind.
[52:12.360 --> 52:15.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, next week, maybe we'll play the, uh, the, the winner of that particular contest.
[52:16.340 --> 52:24.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're coming back in just a few minutes over on YouTube, go to Channel2600 or simply click on the link on the 2600.com webpage.
[52:24.500 --> 52:26.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's your opportunity to give us a call.
[52:26.380 --> 52:35.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: If there's something you'd like to talk to us about, or if you just hear our voices for another few minutes, uh, you can write to us oth@2600.com.
[52:36.100 --> 52:43.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you can tune in again next week at 7 PM on WBAI for another exciting broadcast of off the hook.
[52:43.680 --> 52:49.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: But again, at eight o'clock, we will be on YouTube Channel2600 for overtime.
[52:49.460 --> 52:54.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now from Ukraine last year's Eurovision winner, the Kalish Orchestra.
[52:54.900 --> 52:55.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.
[53:26.280 --> 53:28.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is the second one.
[55:13.430 --> 55:13.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is the second one.
[56:03.120 --> 56:15.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: WBAI's local station board, the Pacifica Foundation Board, responsible for local management and operations, is holding its next regular meeting on Wednesday, May 10th at 7 p.m.
[56:15.700 --> 56:28.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: As events unfold within the Pacifica network and multiple stations cope with financial weakness, it's important for the LSB to identify and keep up with what local priorities should be.
[56:28.080 --> 56:37.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're working to ensure that a robust WBAI 99.5 FM remains where the 99.5% can find it on the dial.
[56:37.820 --> 56:42.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Again, the LSB meeting is Wednesday, May 10th at 7 p.m.
[56:42.080 --> 56:46.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: The meeting will be held through the Zoom remote meeting service.
[56:46.800 --> 56:51.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: The meeting, accessible to the public, includes an opportunity for public comment.
[56:51.740 --> 57:03.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: The fastest and easiest way to join the meeting is by using the link on the Pacifica calendar at kpftx.org and on the WBAI website.
[57:03.220 --> 57:10.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can also access the meeting by calling 929-205-6099.
[57:10.800 --> 57:14.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's 929-205-6099.
[57:14.920 --> 57:16.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: And enter this meeting ID.
[57:17.400 --> 57:22.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: 922-457-2995.
[57:22.400 --> 57:23.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: The meeting ID again.
[57:23.940 --> 57:27.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: 922-457-2995.
[57:27.220 --> 57:31.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: And as if that wasn't enough numbers, we also have a password.
[57:31.860 --> 57:35.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: The password is 995, like WBAI's frequency.
[57:35.500 --> 57:39.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: So it's 995-995-99.
[57:40.560 --> 57:43.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you have to contribute to WBAI to access the meeting?
[57:44.160 --> 57:46.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, but we sure hope that you do.
[57:46.860 --> 57:54.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-209-2950 to support WBAI in New York City.
[57:59.800 --> 58:02.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: And welcome to everybody on YouTube.
[58:02.260 --> 58:04.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's Off The Hook Overtime.
[58:05.860 --> 58:06.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Emmanuel here.
[58:07.080 --> 58:08.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kyle, you make it okay?
[58:09.300 --> 58:09.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[58:10.340 --> 58:10.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Rob?
[58:11.800 --> 58:12.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[58:12.780 --> 58:12.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello.
[58:13.680 --> 58:14.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: And Gila.
[58:14.580 --> 58:15.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi there.
[58:15.700 --> 58:22.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I understand Alex was called at the last minute to attend the Trump Town Hall, which is taking place opposite us right now.
[58:22.920 --> 58:24.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And priorities are priorities, after all.
[58:25.100 --> 58:26.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hope he gets his questions out.
[58:26.120 --> 58:28.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he's got... somebody's got to take charge.
[58:29.380 --> 58:30.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think about that?
[58:31.940 --> 58:32.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know...
[58:32.540 --> 58:39.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, right now, at this moment, CNN is hosting a so-called Donald Trump Town Hall in New Hampshire.
[58:39.680 --> 58:45.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what I just found out was that it's not really a town hall because they're only letting Republicans in.
[58:46.220 --> 58:49.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: So how is this not a Trump rally that CNN is just coordinating?
[58:50.140 --> 58:51.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a town pander.
[58:52.220 --> 58:53.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's terrible.
[58:53.160 --> 58:53.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's terrible.
[58:53.620 --> 58:54.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's absolutely awful.
[58:56.000 --> 58:57.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, like, I guess...
[58:57.640 --> 59:05.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know a lot of mainstream news outlets really miss having their, you know, cash cow of a candidate in office.
[59:05.360 --> 59:06.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, there was something happening every day.
[59:07.080 --> 59:09.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Something eye-catching, a headline-grabbing every single day.
[59:10.180 --> 59:12.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Look, George Santos got arrested today.
[59:12.200 --> 59:12.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Isn't that enough?
[59:13.000 --> 59:13.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Come on.
[59:14.000 --> 59:15.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was a good day.
[59:15.540 --> 59:16.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: We can...
[59:16.460 --> 59:17.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we don't need this.
[59:18.000 --> 59:18.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Nobody needs this.
[59:18.940 --> 59:25.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, but honestly, define Republican, you know, as far as who they're letting in.
[59:25.560 --> 59:26.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, how's that going to go?
[59:27.180 --> 59:29.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Pretty much anybody.
[59:29.420 --> 59:31.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody is allowed at this point.
[59:31.180 --> 59:32.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, what is the criteria anymore?
[59:33.620 --> 59:39.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: You just say, like, a certain few of the talking points?
[59:39.280 --> 59:42.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, like, is there some kind of fist bump or whatever?
[59:43.660 --> 59:44.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[59:44.880 --> 59:48.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I think they put swatches up on you, like when they used to do your colors.
[59:48.680 --> 59:51.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you look okay in red, you can get in.
[59:51.680 --> 59:52.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay, okay.
[59:53.860 --> 59:54.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[59:54.260 --> 59:56.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's what's happening right now.
[59:56.620 --> 01:00:00.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that might be why our listenership is down a bit than what it usually is.
[01:00:01.180 --> 01:00:02.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the phone line's open.
[01:00:02.380 --> 01:00:03.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are the phone lines open?
[01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:03.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:00:03.600 --> 01:00:07.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: 802-321-4225 is our telephone number, in case everybody wants to call us.
[01:00:07.820 --> 01:00:10.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if nobody wants to call us, nobody wants to say anything, we'll make it a quick night.
[01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:11.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's fine.
[01:00:11.580 --> 01:00:12.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what you can do on YouTube.
[01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:14.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can just stop any time you want.
[01:00:14.300 --> 01:00:14.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can take it.
[01:00:15.020 --> 01:00:15.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:00:17.200 --> 01:00:19.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: What's going on in the rest of the world?
[01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:21.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And any news from anybody else?
[01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:27.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is some sad news to share just about a member of the WBAI family.
[01:00:28.580 --> 01:00:43.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some of our listeners may know that we had to say goodbye to Tony Ryan, who was a member of WBAI staff for a very long time, hosted the Soul Central Station music program, and he passed away about a week ago.
[01:00:44.220 --> 01:00:48.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there is a call for help with expenses that is set up by his children.
[01:00:48.700 --> 01:00:55.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: So if any of you out there are able to help with such a thing, go to GoFundMe.com and do a search for Tony Ryan.
[01:00:55.940 --> 01:00:59.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'll find the fundraiser for his final expenses.
[01:01:00.240 --> 01:01:02.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: He will be much missed by all of us at WBAI.
[01:01:02.700 --> 01:01:03.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:01:03.740 --> 01:01:08.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Always a friendly face that greeted us whenever we would come by in the studios.
[01:01:09.660 --> 01:01:11.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And just a kind soul.
[01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:13.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not just there, everywhere.
[01:01:13.460 --> 01:01:18.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: We would see him out and about, down at protests or whatever.
[01:01:19.380 --> 01:01:21.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: He'd bring like a...
[01:01:21.460 --> 01:01:23.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: I remember seeing him with a guitar, I think.
[01:01:24.020 --> 01:01:24.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[01:01:24.540 --> 01:01:25.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Walking around one.
[01:01:25.420 --> 01:01:27.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And just recognize us.
[01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:28.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Acknowledge us.
[01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, friends from the control room.
[01:01:32.640 --> 01:01:33.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: That kind of thing.
[01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:34.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the hallways.
[01:01:34.780 --> 01:01:38.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Getting fun premiums to people and stuff.
[01:01:38.540 --> 01:01:39.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:01:39.260 --> 01:01:43.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, all the things it takes to do the community radio thing.
[01:01:43.740 --> 01:01:44.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he was so dedicated.
[01:01:45.260 --> 01:01:46.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was great.
[01:01:46.940 --> 01:01:47.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:01:48.600 --> 01:01:50.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Rob, any other news?
[01:01:51.160 --> 01:01:52.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you go to the meeting this week?
[01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:54.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: I did.
[01:01:54.300 --> 01:01:55.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was very well populated.
[01:01:56.240 --> 01:02:02.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of older faces that have not been to the 2600 meetings in a long time have been showing up lately.
[01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:05.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's really nice to see people, catch up with them.
[01:02:05.340 --> 01:02:07.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, what you've been up to for the past 20 years.
[01:02:08.060 --> 01:02:10.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it is all around a good time.
[01:02:10.980 --> 01:02:13.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I am always happy to go.
[01:02:13.700 --> 01:02:15.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm always happy to speak with people.
[01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:19.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's always just a very refreshing and fulfilling experience.
[01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:21.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:02:21.640 --> 01:02:26.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Gila, you're making a face of possible contradiction there?
[01:02:26.500 --> 01:02:27.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I smiled.
[01:02:27.940 --> 01:02:29.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: I heard it was lovely.
[01:02:29.520 --> 01:02:31.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was not able to be there, but I heard it was lovely.
[01:02:32.460 --> 01:02:34.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'm looking forward to the June meeting.
[01:02:36.100 --> 01:02:36.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is all.
[01:02:37.160 --> 01:02:42.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the June meeting, of course, as all 2600 meetings take place on the first Friday of the month.
[01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:44.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Usually about 5 p.m.
[01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:46.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: But starting times can vary.
[01:02:47.060 --> 01:02:52.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go to 2600.com/meetings to see what time the meeting in your area starts.
[01:02:52.180 --> 01:02:56.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you don't have a meeting in your area, there are instructions on how you can start one.
[01:02:56.300 --> 01:02:58.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what is a 2600 meeting?
[01:02:58.220 --> 01:03:05.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not, you know, a meeting with an agenda and people sitting in chairs and raising their hands and anything like that.
[01:03:05.340 --> 01:03:12.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's basically a gathering where you talk to the people you want to talk to, you meet people, you stay as long as you want.
[01:03:12.740 --> 01:03:13.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very informal.
[01:03:14.780 --> 01:03:24.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, hearing from people who have gone to meetings over the years, say from the 80s or 90s, you realize how much that meant to people.
[01:03:24.080 --> 01:03:32.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we had Space Rogue on here a bunch of weeks ago, talking about how in the early days of the Loft, 2600 meetings were how people got together.
[01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:34.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had no idea that it carried that kind of weight.
[01:03:34.780 --> 01:03:40.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it really is something to realize how much it means for people just to be able to get together.
[01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:43.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why we continue to do the Hope Conferences.
[01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:47.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just something important for the hacker community.
[01:03:47.100 --> 01:03:49.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it is such an incredible community.
[01:03:49.300 --> 01:03:52.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Always giving back, always building, always being creative.
[01:03:53.160 --> 01:03:55.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm happy to be a part of it.
[01:03:55.620 --> 01:03:56.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:03:56.060 --> 01:03:57.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I believe we have a phone call.
[01:03:57.580 --> 01:03:58.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do we have a phone call, Kyle?
[01:03:59.000 --> 01:03:59.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:03:59.740 --> 01:03:59.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:04:00.240 --> 01:04:05.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: The phone number for future reference is 802-321-4225.
[01:04:06.260 --> 01:04:07.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: The 4225, of course, spells hack.
[01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:10.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And good evening.
[01:04:10.560 --> 01:04:12.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: You are on Overtime.
[01:04:13.980 --> 01:04:14.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi there.
[01:04:15.860 --> 01:04:17.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Great topic at the beginning.
[01:04:18.020 --> 01:04:19.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to expand on that.
[01:04:21.160 --> 01:04:25.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Alex has made some questionable choices in the past.
[01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:30.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: We might call them on, online, on this forum.
[01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:33.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this seems to be another one.
[01:04:34.980 --> 01:04:44.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's a historical moment, because this may be the very night when Trump becomes radioactive.
[01:04:44.780 --> 01:05:05.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we will know if, as I predict in this very moment, and thank you for producing the Satori that made me realize this, CNN, which is already in trouble, is finally auctioning off its credibility for a very limited return.
[01:05:05.020 --> 01:05:09.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Its ratings are going to go down in the drain, I believe.
[01:05:11.100 --> 01:05:18.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Alex unknowingly is going to witness the beginning of the end of CNN.
[01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:32.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that, you know, it's not just a verdict, per se, it's the whole momentum is finally turning around against Trump.
[01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:37.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because people are starting to realize, and CNN is performing a public service...
[01:05:37.800 --> 01:05:39.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hang on, hang on, wait, hold on a second.
[01:05:39.780 --> 01:05:41.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was that Alex on camera just now?
[01:05:41.600 --> 01:05:42.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did we just see him?
[01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:43.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's waving his arm.
[01:05:43.580 --> 01:05:45.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, I think I saw him in the crowd.
[01:05:45.560 --> 01:05:46.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, he might be...
[01:05:46.340 --> 01:05:46.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I'm sorry.
[01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:47.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you're doing both things.
[01:05:48.220 --> 01:05:48.260]  No.
[01:05:48.740 --> 01:05:50.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think, okay, so...
[01:05:50.980 --> 01:05:52.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, we just have the picture on.
[01:05:52.820 --> 01:05:58.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because, you know, if a friend of ours is at a major event like this, you kind of want to see, you know, maybe he'll take the speech.
[01:05:58.920 --> 01:05:59.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, okay.
[01:05:59.260 --> 01:06:02.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe he'll be the one to keep Trump from attacking somebody else.
[01:06:02.740 --> 01:06:04.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he might be the person to save someone's life.
[01:06:04.660 --> 01:06:05.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: I doubt it.
[01:06:05.380 --> 01:06:08.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he'll put himself in the line of fire like that.
[01:06:08.420 --> 01:06:10.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's like the stand-up kind of a guy.
[01:06:11.420 --> 01:06:13.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: And Trump is easy to tackle, too.
[01:06:14.980 --> 01:06:17.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll find out.
[01:06:17.740 --> 01:06:24.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I think one thing that won't be lacking there is pro-Trump security of all kinds.
[01:06:24.420 --> 01:06:27.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope Alex doesn't get in trouble in that regard.
[01:06:27.560 --> 01:06:28.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: But he's a lawyer.
[01:06:28.720 --> 01:06:35.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: He knows what's what, at least in terms of what is legal and what's not legal.
[01:06:35.580 --> 01:06:45.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, well, depending if he's looking for publicity or not, I don't think he's going to do anything hazardous, whichever way you want to put the accent.
[01:06:46.160 --> 01:06:50.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, no, I really believe that, yeah, the tide is turning.
[01:06:50.500 --> 01:06:58.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the people who have been profiting, especially in the media, following this, so to say, Trump phenomenon.
[01:07:00.300 --> 01:07:02.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've been in New York more than 40 years.
[01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:10.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember when I first arrived, and people were talking about this, so to say, young Skion.
[01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:12.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: He was in his 30s then.
[01:07:13.940 --> 01:07:21.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: This dubious real estate tycoon, his father, who was trying to build on Fifth Avenue.
[01:07:21.980 --> 01:07:29.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: I forget if he evicted Gimble from Fifth Avenue or some other big-name department store.
[01:07:29.620 --> 01:07:31.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it was, it might have been Gimble.
[01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:46.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he started to build this eponymous tower, which is, you know, just reflects his value, glitz everywhere, value nowhere, except for in the rent-y charges.
[01:07:48.280 --> 01:08:08.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And location, location, location, location, that's really the philosophy of the guy, which I found, you know, I found basically as a recent immigrant back then, I found the, how can I say, the excess of all what's wrong about American society.
[01:08:08.300 --> 01:08:12.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was very clear to me, ever since.
[01:08:13.640 --> 01:08:33.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: I might have already said on this program that to my great surprise, once I was in his presence, and in spite of my, I wouldn't call it hatred, but insufferance towards that character and what he represents, he makes you feel good when you are, you know,
[01:08:33.460 --> 01:08:34.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: in the same room.
[01:08:34.840 --> 01:08:40.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was very surprised, and I said, look, I really can't stand the guy, but I have to give him this.
[01:08:41.100 --> 01:08:42.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: He does have charisma.
[01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:43.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wait, so hold on a second.
[01:08:43.860 --> 01:08:50.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: You were in the same, you were in the same room as Trump, and he made you feel good.
[01:08:52.140 --> 01:08:52.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[01:08:53.460 --> 01:08:53.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[01:08:54.120 --> 01:08:56.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: He has this quality about him.
[01:08:57.020 --> 01:09:03.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were at a restaurant, literally four or five yards away at separate tables.
[01:09:03.440 --> 01:09:04.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: He was entertaining.
[01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:10.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: You could have hit him with a dinner roll easily, right?
[01:09:10.240 --> 01:09:10.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: I could have.
[01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:24.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, in an ideal world, if this had been the Matrix, I dreamt of going back to the same place, you know, shooting him, and then making off in a phone booth.
[01:09:24.480 --> 01:09:29.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, being interviewed by the police and saying, oh, the guy looked exactly like me.
[01:09:29.160 --> 01:09:32.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's going over the line.
[01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:37.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, yeah, we all have our dreams, I suppose.
[01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:39.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, exactly.
[01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:40.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
[01:09:42.020 --> 01:09:45.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can we move the subject to something other than this guy?
[01:09:46.120 --> 01:09:48.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I just brought it up just for fun at the top of the hour.
[01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:50.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, and you did right.
[01:09:50.480 --> 01:09:57.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I really think it's a pivotal moment in that, you know, mark my words, and maybe I will be proven wrong.
[01:09:58.080 --> 01:10:10.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that CNN has crossed the line in considering the fact that, you know, at least in their rhetoric and in their PRs, they have appealed to sensible audience.
[01:10:11.660 --> 01:10:14.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: But people will really turn on them today.
[01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:21.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, what I found out recently, and I was surprised by this, is that MSNBC has far higher ratings than CNN.
[01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:22.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I thought it was the other way around.
[01:10:23.260 --> 01:10:26.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I found MSNBC to be a lot more palatable recently.
[01:10:27.160 --> 01:10:29.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, they have about half as many commercials.
[01:10:29.860 --> 01:10:33.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: CNN is always having commercials, and I turn them on.
[01:10:33.480 --> 01:10:36.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they're not trying to both sides everything.
[01:10:36.220 --> 01:10:44.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I could see if it was a race, you know, Biden versus Trump, if that's what it turns into, yeah, Trump is going to get some airtime.
[01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:45.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: But that's not the case.
[01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:47.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not yet, anyway.
[01:10:47.400 --> 01:10:52.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: In this particular case, you have many people that are saying they're going to run, or they're thinking about running.
[01:10:52.840 --> 01:11:06.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: So to give this guy all of this free attention, and then on top of that, to simply exclude anybody who might criticize him, so that it's only Republicans in the room with him, or independents that are likely to vote Republican.
[01:11:06.160 --> 01:11:07.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's insane.
[01:11:07.560 --> 01:11:09.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what kind of...
[01:11:09.340 --> 01:11:12.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: But those are the terms Trump insisted on.
[01:11:12.180 --> 01:11:14.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And because of that, he is running the show.
[01:11:14.900 --> 01:11:16.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: He is literally running the show.
[01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:20.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he went to CNN and not Fox for something like this.
[01:11:20.820 --> 01:11:21.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's very telling.
[01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:25.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you said it yourself.
[01:11:25.700 --> 01:11:27.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: My question is rhetorical.
[01:11:27.480 --> 01:11:29.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where is the both-side-ism?
[01:11:29.280 --> 01:11:31.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, where is the other side?
[01:11:31.320 --> 01:11:38.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, their pretense of being the objective, the thinking network, is total crap.
[01:11:38.900 --> 01:11:41.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this shows it for what it is.
[01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:46.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they have already showing it, and that's why their attendance, let's say, is down.
[01:11:46.920 --> 01:12:02.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's going to be much lower, because I think what they're doing is an unashamed play for Tucker Carlson's hour, you know, because I'm not sure about this, but I think he went on at the same time.
[01:12:02.420 --> 01:12:03.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not having a TV, I will never know.
[01:12:04.200 --> 01:12:06.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think he went on at this time.
[01:12:07.420 --> 01:12:13.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like saying, hey, Trumpers, you are missing your frontman?
[01:12:13.400 --> 01:12:15.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll bring you the real thing.
[01:12:16.300 --> 01:12:17.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And come what may.
[01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:21.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what may, you know, maybe they did actually do...
[01:12:22.080 --> 01:12:30.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although, I think even the advertisers are a little more sophisticated, not in terms of politics, but in terms of simply saying, who are we selling to?
[01:12:30.900 --> 01:12:32.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: How many people are really going to watch?
[01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:34.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what are we selling to whom?
[01:12:35.920 --> 01:12:43.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, considering also the very short notice, I don't know that it's going to be such a fantastic commercial return on this.
[01:12:44.320 --> 01:12:45.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Quite the contrary.
[01:12:45.780 --> 01:12:48.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it will be really interesting to see.
[01:12:48.240 --> 01:12:55.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that, you know, with this, they lose to any claim of objectivity that they might have ever had.
[01:12:56.340 --> 01:13:00.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And as I said, they were already wobbling in terms of credibility.
[01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:04.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: But this is really a watershed moment.
[01:13:04.100 --> 01:13:22.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And not just for CNN, because a lot of people are starting to realize, and I'm talking middle-of-the-road people, not, you know, Trumpers or die-hard pink Democrats, or that, you know, this has all been about ratings.
[01:13:23.860 --> 01:13:42.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, this wreck of a personality, aside from his charisma, was wrought over us by advertisers, or not the advertisers, but the people who pander to the advertisers, the media, saying, oh, this sells.
[01:13:42.740 --> 01:13:44.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, do you want to buy some space here?
[01:13:44.980 --> 01:13:47.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're having this clown that is running for president.
[01:13:48.180 --> 01:13:53.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the joke, unfortunately, became not very funny once he got, quote, elected.
[01:13:53.180 --> 01:13:57.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, as I like to say, he's still convinced he won in 2020.
[01:13:57.520 --> 01:14:00.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he has an argument because he lost in 2000.
[01:14:01.060 --> 01:14:02.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he didn't lose, right?
[01:14:02.460 --> 01:14:03.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Technically, he won.
[01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:08.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: But he's the only country in the world where you wind up with 3 million less votes than your opponent.
[01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:10.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're the winner.
[01:14:10.280 --> 01:14:11.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everywhere else, you're called the loser.
[01:14:12.160 --> 01:14:13.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: But here, you're the winner.
[01:14:13.420 --> 01:14:17.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: So he says, wow, this time, I got even more votes less.
[01:14:17.880 --> 01:14:19.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I got 8 million less.
[01:14:19.320 --> 01:14:20.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, I have to win.
[01:14:20.520 --> 01:14:31.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fairness, in fairness, though, there are other countries that do it similarly to us, like Belarus, North Korea, places like that, where no matter how many votes you get, you will never...
[01:14:31.180 --> 01:14:32.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: the cradles of democracy, right?
[01:14:33.180 --> 01:14:33.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[01:14:33.720 --> 01:14:41.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: North Korea and Belarus, some of the most lauded democratic countries in the world.
[01:14:42.260 --> 01:14:43.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: So there we are.
[01:14:43.540 --> 01:14:48.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're on the same level, the same system as North Korea and Belarus.
[01:14:48.580 --> 01:14:49.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for pointing that out.
[01:14:49.840 --> 01:14:52.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's logical, unfortunately.
[01:14:52.900 --> 01:14:54.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anything else before we move on to another call?
[01:14:55.900 --> 01:14:57.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's great.
[01:14:57.100 --> 01:15:00.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad someone else called, so I hope I started the ball rolling.
[01:15:00.660 --> 01:15:02.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy, and thank you so much for all your work.
[01:15:02.840 --> 01:15:03.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for your call.
[01:15:04.360 --> 01:15:04.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Take care.
[01:15:04.920 --> 01:15:05.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: All the best.
[01:15:05.500 --> 01:15:05.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye-bye.
[01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:07.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did someone else call?
[01:15:07.660 --> 01:15:09.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: How would he know if someone else called?
[01:15:09.420 --> 01:15:10.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we only have one line.
[01:15:11.660 --> 01:15:13.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: The line is now open.
[01:15:13.360 --> 01:15:18.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: The line is now open, and the phone number remains 802-321-4225.
[01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:20.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Gila.
[01:15:20.700 --> 01:15:26.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, while we wait for the next call, we did have an update on a news story from last week.
[01:15:26.940 --> 01:15:28.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, tell us.
[01:15:28.400 --> 01:15:28.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[01:15:29.340 --> 01:15:37.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Last week, when we spoke about the fact that Pornhub decided that it was just blacking out in Utah in response to the new law that went into effect a week ago today.
[01:15:37.920 --> 01:15:41.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I forgot to VPN to Utah to try and log on to Pornhub.
[01:15:41.440 --> 01:15:42.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I forgot to do that.
[01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:46.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Interestingly enough, the governor...
[01:15:46.540 --> 01:15:48.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're looking at a story on Tech Dirt right now.
[01:15:48.720 --> 01:15:50.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: The governor has said, cool, that's great.
[01:15:51.040 --> 01:15:51.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: You don't want to be here.
[01:15:51.820 --> 01:15:52.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: We don't want you here.
[01:15:52.880 --> 01:15:53.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Get out.
[01:15:53.640 --> 01:15:57.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: The guy who sponsored the bill was like, I didn't know this was going to happen.
[01:15:58.280 --> 01:15:59.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is shocking.
[01:15:59.680 --> 01:16:00.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: What are you saying?
[01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:02.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: But then, wait, it gets better.
[01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:16.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: The public affairs arm, the trade group, excuse me, of the adult entertainment industry is suing the state of Utah on First Amendment grounds.
[01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:21.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they say that...
[01:16:21.380 --> 01:16:23.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, check it out.
[01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:31.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: The act violates the First Amendment in several respects, violates the 14th Amendment, and violates the Equal Protection Clause.
[01:16:31.580 --> 01:16:32.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: I found this very interesting.
[01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:42.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: The act's exemption of certain news organizations draws impermissible content-based distinctions among persons engaged in free space, violating the Equal Protection Clause.
[01:16:43.240 --> 01:16:48.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, will be interesting to see where this goes.
[01:16:49.700 --> 01:16:55.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: But yes, I did think it was very interesting that Utah is now being sued over this new law.
[01:16:56.360 --> 01:16:56.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.
[01:16:57.140 --> 01:17:01.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you said the guy who sponsored the bill seemed surprised by what's happening.
[01:17:02.180 --> 01:17:06.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: It almost sounded like he was kind of regretting it, but why would he?
[01:17:07.200 --> 01:17:08.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, no, no, no.
[01:17:08.340 --> 01:17:16.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, okay, he said to Ars Technica, when I ran the legislation last February, I didn't expect adult porn sites to be blocked in Utah.
[01:17:16.300 --> 01:17:17.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not at all.
[01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:26.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Then, he spoke to a local TV affiliate and said they're complying with Louisiana's law, which is essentially the same, so I expect they'll eventually comply with Utah's as well.
[01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:29.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then he told the LA Times, I think this is a strategy.
[01:17:30.060 --> 01:17:35.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're trying to put the pressure on me and other legislators to repeal this, and I don't think that's going to work.
[01:17:35.180 --> 01:17:39.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: So he's just basically playing all sides with this response right now.
[01:17:41.100 --> 01:17:46.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: But yes, there is an official legal challenge to it, and I will be interested to see where we go from here.
[01:17:47.040 --> 01:17:47.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.
[01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:54.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Any of our listeners in Utah would like to let us know if this is something they're aware of or if it's affecting them in any way.
[01:17:55.280 --> 01:18:01.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please either write to us, oth@2600.com or call us, 802-321-4225.
[01:18:01.220 --> 01:18:05.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll leave the phone lines open for another couple of minutes, see if anyone else is out there.
[01:18:06.220 --> 01:18:06.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Gila?
[01:18:07.100 --> 01:18:17.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Also, I had another, which has nothing to do with porn, but it has nothing to do with what we talked about earlier, which is the local, the transit in Pittsburgh.
[01:18:18.880 --> 01:18:23.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: The husband of one of my best friends is now obsessed with Pittsburgh, so we're all talking about it a lot.
[01:18:23.780 --> 01:18:28.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: And in Pittsburgh, they have the light rail, which is great, but they also have inclines.
[01:18:28.900 --> 01:18:33.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have the oldest funicular railroad in the country.
[01:18:34.160 --> 01:18:35.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Funiculars are great.
[01:18:35.480 --> 01:18:36.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is in Pittsburgh.
[01:18:36.660 --> 01:18:37.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[01:18:37.720 --> 01:18:38.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:18:38.320 --> 01:18:40.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, how would you describe what that is to somebody who doesn't know?
[01:18:41.360 --> 01:18:47.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: If I'm not mistaken, it is a rail car that, like, climbs up the outside of a mountain.
[01:18:47.320 --> 01:18:47.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Pretty much.
[01:18:48.160 --> 01:18:50.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it terrifies me conceptually.
[01:18:50.260 --> 01:19:02.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm definitely afraid of heights, but I did think it was an important thing to mention that in addition to buses and light rail, the Pittsburgh Municipal Transit Organization is in charge of these two funicular railroads.
[01:19:03.060 --> 01:19:06.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's one in Quebec City, which is also really impressive.
[01:19:06.580 --> 01:19:08.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a bunch in Lisbon.
[01:19:08.500 --> 01:19:09.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Lisbon, yes.
[01:19:10.040 --> 01:19:11.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're all over the place.
[01:19:11.260 --> 01:19:12.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not so many in the States.
[01:19:12.220 --> 01:19:13.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wish there were more.
[01:19:14.220 --> 01:19:15.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Used to be a bunch more.
[01:19:16.060 --> 01:19:16.480]  Wow.
[01:19:17.180 --> 01:19:19.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Both around and in Pittsburgh, but...
[01:19:19.460 --> 01:19:23.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[01:19:23.600 --> 01:19:24.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Give us another couple of minutes.
[01:19:25.500 --> 01:19:27.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, it's early night for us.
[01:19:28.160 --> 01:19:30.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: That would be kind of a welcome...
[01:19:30.100 --> 01:19:31.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, not having Alex, of course.
[01:19:33.100 --> 01:19:36.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: People don't want to call and Alex isn't here because there's nobody to argue with.
[01:19:37.960 --> 01:19:39.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's Alex's own fault.
[01:19:39.180 --> 01:19:43.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, he was all excited to go to the, what is it, the cybersecurity gathering of the Juggalos?
[01:19:44.820 --> 01:19:46.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it's cybersecurity Woodstock.
[01:19:47.060 --> 01:19:47.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[01:19:47.540 --> 01:19:47.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:19:48.340 --> 01:19:50.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he didn't bring us with him, so, you know, that's something.
[01:19:51.320 --> 01:19:52.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Something disturbance.
[01:19:52.520 --> 01:19:52.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:19:53.720 --> 01:19:56.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, is it like disruption, disruption con or something?
[01:19:56.700 --> 01:19:57.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: How do you schedule for that?
[01:19:57.900 --> 01:19:58.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: I have so many questions.
[01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:01.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:20:02.440 --> 01:20:03.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess...
[01:20:03.160 --> 01:20:06.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: You schedule at the same time as another event that's going on and you just barge in on it.
[01:20:07.280 --> 01:20:08.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that qualifies.
[01:20:08.680 --> 01:20:09.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that makes sense.
[01:20:12.220 --> 01:20:14.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: That or just think edgy thoughts.
[01:20:16.240 --> 01:20:16.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[01:20:19.240 --> 01:20:21.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: The phone line is still open.
[01:20:21.180 --> 01:20:21.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it?
[01:20:24.320 --> 01:20:25.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: It is no longer opening.
[01:20:25.940 --> 01:20:26.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's ringing now, though.
[01:20:27.640 --> 01:20:30.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Shall we accept this call?
[01:20:30.680 --> 01:20:31.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're all so excited.
[01:20:31.940 --> 01:20:33.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, let's accept it.
[01:20:33.260 --> 01:20:33.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please.
[01:20:33.620 --> 01:20:33.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[01:20:34.060 --> 01:20:35.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on Off Talk Overtime.
[01:20:35.180 --> 01:20:35.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[01:20:36.780 --> 01:20:38.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, it's Johnny Fusion.
[01:20:39.020 --> 01:20:39.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, Johnny Fusion.
[01:20:39.980 --> 01:20:40.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[01:20:41.480 --> 01:20:43.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm doing pretty good.
[01:20:43.720 --> 01:20:44.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, that's good to hear.
[01:20:46.520 --> 01:20:54.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I want to talk a little bit about this bard business going on with Google that you talked about on the radio.
[01:20:55.240 --> 01:20:55.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, bard.
[01:20:56.360 --> 01:20:58.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Boy, that's going to be something.
[01:20:59.700 --> 01:21:25.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, and, you know, my latest article, I talked a little bit about AI, but I didn't, you know, I talked about it, you know, more about how it's impacting creatives, and we have the, you know, the writer guild strike right now, and that's one of the points about not having AI written scripts and stuff.
[01:21:25.520 --> 01:21:32.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, they don't want to be replaced by AI writers, you know, but
[01:21:36.280 --> 01:21:40.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: with search results, as you said, these things hallucinate.
[01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:56.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: They make up crap all the time because, you know, they're called AI because they use kind of like this neural net for these large language models, but they're not really intelligent.
[01:21:56.480 --> 01:21:57.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're not doing cognition.
[01:21:59.080 --> 01:22:04.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, they're not really self-aware at all.
[01:22:04.520 --> 01:22:08.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're just following grammar and syntax.
[01:22:09.180 --> 01:22:20.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was just going to say playing with the syntax in a nonsensical way, but in a way that fits structurally from pattern recognition, really, right?
[01:22:21.300 --> 01:22:29.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah, it appears to make sense because their data set is so large.
[01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:32.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, they're called large language models.
[01:22:33.100 --> 01:22:38.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think people don't really realize what the large really means.
[01:22:38.600 --> 01:22:47.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, these are like petabytes of sample text that they're drawing from.
[01:22:47.600 --> 01:22:56.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: every way of saying things in every kind of context and on any different kind of subject matter.
[01:22:56.700 --> 01:22:56.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:05.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, even when we say petabytes, people don't fathom how large that actually is.
[01:23:08.320 --> 01:23:13.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's just like, and it's multiple of petabytes.
[01:23:14.960 --> 01:23:19.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's like, it's literally everything on the Internet ever.
[01:23:20.900 --> 01:23:29.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's ridiculous amounts of information with no understanding.
[01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:33.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's basically black boxing language.
[01:23:38.090 --> 01:23:39.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:23:40.110 --> 01:23:52.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, it was well described in a discussion that I saw on Mastodon yesterday, which described it as snapping together word Legos and random strings that happened to make smooth shapes.
[01:23:54.070 --> 01:23:58.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: This was by someone called Mikey at Soylent.green on Mastodon.
[01:23:59.010 --> 01:24:02.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically describing this as, this is a text sequence extender.
[01:24:02.990 --> 01:24:10.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't lie, it doesn't learn, it basically just slaps things together that seem to fit based on what it knows about language.
[01:24:10.970 --> 01:24:19.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't know the facts, it doesn't know if things are correct or incorrect, correct, it is just very able to put together a confident sounding sentence.
[01:24:20.230 --> 01:24:24.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was further described as you're not learning anything, you're arguing with a distorted echo.
[01:24:26.690 --> 01:24:37.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and, you know, it's, it's, it's basically a magic trick, right?
[01:24:37.650 --> 01:24:41.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just Eliza writ large, you know?
[01:24:45.290 --> 01:24:46.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, absolutely.
[01:24:46.830 --> 01:24:59.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Eliza being the very first AI chat bot, you know, which was written in basic run on very primitive hardware.
[01:25:00.410 --> 01:25:07.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, I had a copy of Eliza running on the Apple 2, right, with 16 kilobytes of RAM.
[01:25:08.070 --> 01:25:10.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, well, the Apple 2 Plus had 16 kilobytes.
[01:25:10.890 --> 01:25:12.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: That was the upgrade, right?
[01:25:14.250 --> 01:25:24.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Loaded off a cassette tape, you know, and it used tricks to talk like a therapist.
[01:25:24.870 --> 01:25:25.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[01:25:25.510 --> 01:25:31.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: you know, and I think it was invented in the 60s or 70s.
[01:25:32.570 --> 01:25:38.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: And computer scientists would talk to this program for hours.
[01:25:39.120 --> 01:25:51.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, maybe that talks to something about the mindset of computer nerds and how lonely we are for interaction that we would talk to a primitive program for hours.
[01:25:52.730 --> 01:26:01.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: but you know, these large language models are just a more convincing illusion of this.
[01:26:02.010 --> 01:26:04.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: But there's no there there.
[01:26:04.950 --> 01:26:06.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, which is...
[01:26:06.790 --> 01:26:10.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's unfortunate because it comes...
[01:26:10.290 --> 01:26:11.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because it...
[01:26:14.130 --> 01:26:18.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: it rose at the same time with these art programs.
[01:26:19.010 --> 01:26:21.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which I think shows real creativity.
[01:26:22.550 --> 01:26:34.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, which is a whole different phenomenon because this has interactive neural nets that actually does show understanding of language.
[01:26:34.570 --> 01:26:38.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because it's taking language and interpreting it artistically.
[01:26:38.650 --> 01:26:40.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: even though...
[01:26:40.750 --> 01:26:41.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[01:26:41.930 --> 01:26:46.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just like playing with the art generator.
[01:26:46.570 --> 01:26:49.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, there's just some creepy things.
[01:26:49.190 --> 01:26:53.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe I'm falling for the illusion with the art stuff.
[01:26:53.370 --> 01:27:03.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, with people that have worked with it, you know, it seems to be a real creativity because there's things that it's creating that weren't in the original data sets.
[01:27:04.310 --> 01:27:05.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know?
[01:27:06.010 --> 01:27:14.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Even then, and on the subject of the visual art AI, as a visual artist myself, I have some feelings about that, but I wanted to bring it back to you.
[01:27:14.990 --> 01:27:38.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: You mentioned Eliza, and yeah, it was created in the 1960s, and it was so persistent, and it blew people's minds at the time because people didn't, you know, have the experience of talking to a computer in sentences and getting sentences back, so much so that people basically being fooled by a computer conversation and attributing human characteristics to it is now known as the Eliza effect.
[01:27:38.970 --> 01:27:43.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I encourage anyone listening to look into this if you haven't.
[01:27:43.230 --> 01:27:50.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's Eliza spelled with a Z, and you could just look that up on Wikipedia and find the software, and it is a really fascinating piece of history.
[01:27:52.550 --> 01:28:11.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Already been examples, I think, in some of the interviews and the employees that were working that were let go in the Google case, but a lot of different stories I've seen from local news and I think even Vice did one recently.
[01:28:11.950 --> 01:28:17.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of scary when they talk to people who've had strong connections with these things.
[01:28:17.910 --> 01:28:24.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: You kind of are sympathetic on one hand, and you're like, how did this unravel?
[01:28:24.170 --> 01:28:25.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: How did you let it get to this?
[01:28:25.910 --> 01:28:31.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or how did you spend so much time and becoming so absorbed in this?
[01:28:32.790 --> 01:28:55.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I think like Johnny said, the geekiness, I guess the intrigue and isolation maybe to a degree also and trying to find affinity groups or people that get you, that this might be a diversion.
[01:28:56.550 --> 01:28:57.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: useful one.
[01:28:57.670 --> 01:29:00.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's the perfect storm of isolation during the pandemic.
[01:29:00.690 --> 01:29:01.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that too.
[01:29:01.450 --> 01:29:01.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:29:02.330 --> 01:29:12.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: This period of time is the perfect, you know, it's like the perfect storm for this technology to arise where everybody's isolated, you know?
[01:29:14.230 --> 01:29:14.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: So...
[01:29:14.750 --> 01:29:16.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but it's a built-in need.
[01:29:20.190 --> 01:29:20.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:29:23.190 --> 01:29:37.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, and with the, you know, and then, you know, there's the whole phenomenon of the replica AI, which they market as a romantic partner.
[01:29:38.150 --> 01:29:38.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[01:29:39.130 --> 01:29:44.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, where they feed, where they literally market into that loneliness.
[01:29:44.970 --> 01:29:54.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then there, a month or two back, there was like a whole thing where Italy said, hey, this isn't safe.
[01:29:54.730 --> 01:29:56.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they walked it back.
[01:29:56.510 --> 01:30:08.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: back, and there was outcry from the rest of the world, and these people that were, I would say, addicted to their relationships with their replica girlfriends and boyfriends.
[01:30:08.930 --> 01:30:10.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was the vice story I was thinking about.
[01:30:11.150 --> 01:30:14.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were covering that story you're talking about.
[01:30:19.870 --> 01:30:20.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:30:20.930 --> 01:30:25.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, and so they slowly turned it back on without much fanfare.
[01:30:27.230 --> 01:30:38.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if you ever want to go down the rabbit hole, all you have to do is look at the replica subreddit on reddit, and
[01:30:41.310 --> 01:30:43.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: that's all I'm going to say about that.
[01:30:43.290 --> 01:30:48.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you can look for yourself, you know, because there are people there that are really into it.
[01:30:50.310 --> 01:30:59.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and there was also an issue last year, I believe, one quarter, we ran a story on replica, I think.
[01:30:59.870 --> 01:31:03.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: someone was talking about that in one of the articles.
[01:31:06.890 --> 01:31:08.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, well, it's good hearing from you.
[01:31:09.630 --> 01:31:14.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please keep us updated, keep writing articles, and we hope to hear from you again soon.
[01:31:16.090 --> 01:31:21.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you know, and I'm thinking about writing some more.
[01:31:21.670 --> 01:31:23.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was going to branch out.
[01:31:23.990 --> 01:31:43.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was going to write for, I was going to branch out and write for Star Trek.com because they pay, but I'm going to show some solidarity for the writers guild and hold off, even though it's not technically TV, but they're, you know, a TV company, so I'm going to show some solidarity.
[01:31:44.350 --> 01:31:47.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it'll keep Star Trek and AI's not going anywhere.
[01:31:48.230 --> 01:31:48.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[01:31:48.630 --> 01:31:50.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, I'm looking for other avenues.
[01:31:51.150 --> 01:32:02.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you can always write, you just, you know, just don't release it to anybody who could benefit from it, but you know, you're not breaking any rules by just writing, you know, to yourself.
[01:32:04.210 --> 01:32:08.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: True enough, but how they work, you know, they don't want finished essays.
[01:32:08.610 --> 01:32:11.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: They want pitches, and then you write it.
[01:32:11.510 --> 01:32:12.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's how they work.
[01:32:12.790 --> 01:32:13.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's true.
[01:32:13.170 --> 01:32:28.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, I'm not going to pitch until the strikes over to them, but I might publish on Medium or, you know, or other zines or stuff that's not owned by CBS Paramount, or not owned by studios.
[01:32:28.970 --> 01:32:33.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, I'll still be writing for the magazine as soon as inspiration hits.
[01:32:34.150 --> 01:32:36.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we look forward to seeing what you come up with.
[01:32:36.970 --> 01:32:38.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, thank you.
[01:32:38.310 --> 01:32:38.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, take care.
[01:32:40.030 --> 01:32:40.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bye.
[01:32:43.170 --> 01:32:52.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting, the writer's strike, which is going on right now, one of the major concerns is artificial intelligence, you know, chat and GPT.
[01:32:52.570 --> 01:33:05.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I just wonder, what specifically is artificial intelligence doing in the TV, movie writing world that is affecting human writers?
[01:33:05.730 --> 01:33:09.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are they actually, you know, scripting TV shows and movies?
[01:33:09.950 --> 01:33:11.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Rob, do you know something about this?
[01:33:12.150 --> 01:33:12.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: A little bit.
[01:33:12.950 --> 01:33:19.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, it's not that it's being done right now in the field of mainstream TV and movies, but it's that it will be.
[01:33:20.430 --> 01:33:38.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's TV and movies, it's the TV and movie industry, those who do the work for once wanting to get out ahead of something like this, because any AI that would be writing like a Star Trek episode or whatever else would be doing it by being trained on the writings of human writers.
[01:33:38.470 --> 01:33:44.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is about those human writers wanting to be able to say, don't use my stuff to train a robot to take my job away from me.
[01:33:45.330 --> 01:33:56.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Especially in the attempt of, excuse me, the studios wanted to continue to use existing IP so you can continue writing another Star Wars movie until the end of time.
[01:33:56.770 --> 01:34:02.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: so one of my favorite signs I've seen a picture of so far says AI didn't have childhood trauma.
[01:34:04.150 --> 01:34:04.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:34:06.030 --> 01:34:07.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Which I thought was very interesting.
[01:34:07.890 --> 01:34:20.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, no, I, they were moving New York area members of all the guilds today to try to block some filming locations.
[01:34:20.950 --> 01:34:37.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: systems, but yes, the fact that the writers said we want specific discussions about how AI will be used going forward, and the AMPTP said, we'll have one meeting a year to talk about it going forward.
[01:34:38.710 --> 01:34:44.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, so that, it's an interesting sort of situation.
[01:34:45.010 --> 01:34:54.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can we get Chad GPT or BART or any of those entities to promise not to do anything that would hurt somebody who was on strike?
[01:34:54.670 --> 01:34:55.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how to ask the question.
[01:34:56.190 --> 01:35:02.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how to specifically phrase it, but I would like to get them on record saying, yes, I won't be a scab.
[01:35:02.770 --> 01:35:12.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, they can say it all they want, but as we know, what they say doesn't mean a whole lot, but it's also interesting, a couple weeks, months ago, what is time?
[01:35:13.110 --> 01:35:36.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Alan Alda did a whole episode of his podcast where he was just interviewing different AI robots, basically, and had them then spoken by different voice over bots the same way that you have done Emmanuel, but the thing that he did that you didn't do was ask one of the AI bots to write a new episode of MASH,
[01:35:37.110 --> 01:35:42.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: and then he and Mike Farrell read it on his podcast, and it was bad.
[01:35:43.070 --> 01:35:43.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was...
[01:35:43.630 --> 01:35:46.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: AI still doesn't get humor, which is interesting.
[01:35:47.490 --> 01:35:49.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: AI, as we have discovered, is unfunny.
[01:35:52.290 --> 01:36:00.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, you know, it was interesting to listen to that happen, but you know, to have those pieces come back, I thought was interesting.
[01:36:01.610 --> 01:36:02.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[01:36:03.510 --> 01:36:05.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead, Kyle, we have a call.
[01:36:06.230 --> 01:36:07.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, good evening.
[01:36:07.170 --> 01:36:08.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on off the cover time.
[01:36:08.090 --> 01:36:08.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[01:36:09.950 --> 01:36:10.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, hi.
[01:36:11.130 --> 01:36:11.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's Rebel.
[01:36:11.830 --> 01:36:12.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing, Rebel?
[01:36:13.530 --> 01:36:13.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good.
[01:36:14.250 --> 01:36:14.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's see.
[01:36:14.770 --> 01:36:15.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hold on, let me get my notes.
[01:36:16.210 --> 01:36:17.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have notes?
[01:36:17.310 --> 01:36:17.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really?
[01:36:17.990 --> 01:36:18.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:36:18.570 --> 01:36:18.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[01:36:19.430 --> 01:36:21.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm honored that we're deserving of notes.
[01:36:22.310 --> 01:36:22.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's great.
[01:36:24.070 --> 01:36:27.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe other callers could have notes, too, so that we don't stray off-topic.
[01:36:29.690 --> 01:36:31.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you do stray off-topic.
[01:36:31.250 --> 01:36:34.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: You stray off-topic more than anybody, so your notes...
[01:36:34.130 --> 01:36:35.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, stick to your notes.
[01:36:35.350 --> 01:36:35.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: How about that?
[01:36:36.790 --> 01:36:37.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:36:38.130 --> 01:36:38.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:36:39.270 --> 01:36:55.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, have you ever called, like, if you ever had a call of a phone company like Verizon or something like 1-800-VERIZON to, like, you know, you know, if you, like, do you still have to call the business office if you had a problem with your bill or a question or something like that?
[01:36:57.530 --> 01:37:07.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I guess I won't call and demonstrate it or, you know, demonstrate it over the air, but what it does is that if you don't have...
[01:37:07.410 --> 01:37:08.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you don't say anything...
[01:37:08.710 --> 01:37:09.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, maybe I should demonstrate it.
[01:37:09.750 --> 01:37:10.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, no, you shouldn't.
[01:37:10.710 --> 01:37:11.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not a good idea.
[01:37:12.070 --> 01:37:13.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if you don't say anything...
[01:37:13.830 --> 01:37:14.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know what?
[01:37:15.690 --> 01:37:16.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's...
[01:37:16.130 --> 01:37:17.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: It says...
[01:37:19.850 --> 01:37:20.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're...
[01:37:20.890 --> 01:37:21.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're...
[01:37:21.330 --> 01:37:21.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: We will...
[01:37:22.650 --> 01:37:34.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Your call may be monitored to train our systems and representatives, meaning they're training their AI, you know, they're training their AI now.
[01:37:34.790 --> 01:37:37.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they're training their students, the newcomers.
[01:37:37.590 --> 01:37:39.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that could be synthetic newcomers.
[01:37:40.110 --> 01:37:42.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they're training the representatives, but they're training...
[01:37:42.410 --> 01:37:44.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: They have artificial intelligence now.
[01:37:44.850 --> 01:37:45.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[01:37:46.330 --> 01:37:49.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: So maybe artificial intelligence is listening in.
[01:37:49.190 --> 01:37:49.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: You don't know.
[01:37:50.950 --> 01:37:56.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and if you don't have... if you don't push button, like if you don't have a Touch-Tone phone, you know, it just hangs up.
[01:37:56.890 --> 01:37:59.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: It just says, we're sorry you're having problems.
[01:38:00.150 --> 01:38:03.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: You may want to try again later or something like that.
[01:38:03.270 --> 01:38:04.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and it's very literal.
[01:38:04.390 --> 01:38:11.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're having problems and not embracing the technology they want you to embrace and maybe try later when you've learned how to do that.
[01:38:12.070 --> 01:38:13.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what they're saying.
[01:38:13.790 --> 01:38:20.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and, you know, many 800 numbers of the past... I've listened to some of the old Off The Hook shows.
[01:38:20.410 --> 01:38:26.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like when you call an 800 number of some sort, like, you know, you'd call some 800 number back in like the 90s or something.
[01:38:26.850 --> 01:38:29.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I tried calling the, you know, the same 800 number.
[01:38:29.330 --> 01:38:30.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's the same thing.
[01:38:30.670 --> 01:38:39.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: It just goes to the same recording that says, you know, please listen carefully to this special offer or whatever or something like that.
[01:38:39.830 --> 01:38:41.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is it an offer from the 1990s?
[01:38:43.030 --> 01:38:49.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, but I should... 521 core.
[01:38:49.530 --> 01:38:49.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know what?
[01:38:49.850 --> 01:38:51.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe I will demonstrate something.
[01:38:52.310 --> 01:38:53.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do I have a hold?
[01:38:53.390 --> 01:38:54.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is it really necessary, Rebel?
[01:38:55.410 --> 01:38:56.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's make this fast, then.
[01:38:56.770 --> 01:38:57.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's pull that Band-Aid off.
[01:38:57.850 --> 01:38:58.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[01:38:59.390 --> 01:38:59.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait a minute.
[01:39:01.090 --> 01:39:01.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hold on.
[01:39:02.710 --> 01:39:04.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, being put on hold.
[01:39:04.670 --> 01:39:05.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Being put on hold by the callers.
[01:39:05.990 --> 01:39:07.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: It raises a good point, though.
[01:39:07.350 --> 01:39:20.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, if you're talking to a billing system or you're talking to something that's handling customer info, and it's got a back-end sort of modulized version of one of these machine learning things.
[01:39:20.710 --> 01:39:21.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a financial group, St. Cloud.
[01:39:22.450 --> 01:39:23.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: What happens to your personal info?
[01:39:23.790 --> 01:39:25.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:39:26.290 --> 01:39:28.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: To reach Ryan Scott Preston.
[01:39:29.190 --> 01:39:31.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:39:31.530 --> 01:39:32.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is she responding to us?
[01:39:32.750 --> 01:39:34.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: To reach Ryan Scott...
[01:39:35.150 --> 01:39:37.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:39:37.430 --> 01:39:38.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is not what he was doing before.
[01:39:38.770 --> 01:39:39.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, never is.
[01:39:41.550 --> 01:39:42.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's why we don't...
[01:39:42.870 --> 01:39:44.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I could not find this option.
[01:39:44.270 --> 01:39:45.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Demonstrate things on the air like this.
[01:39:45.730 --> 01:39:46.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: To reach Ryan...
[01:39:46.430 --> 01:39:47.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did she find this option before?
[01:39:47.910 --> 01:39:49.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:39:51.330 --> 01:39:53.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:39:53.690 --> 01:39:54.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words...
[01:39:54.970 --> 01:39:56.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:39:56.930 --> 01:39:58.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is entertaining radio.
[01:39:58.650 --> 01:40:00.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:40:00.090 --> 01:40:02.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to hang up on this because it's just...
[01:40:02.310 --> 01:40:03.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:40:03.410 --> 01:40:03.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you don't want to hang up.
[01:40:03.910 --> 01:40:05.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why don't you want to hang up on this?
[01:40:05.890 --> 01:40:07.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:40:08.070 --> 01:40:08.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can hang up on us.
[01:40:08.970 --> 01:40:09.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know what?
[01:40:09.150 --> 01:40:10.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm willing to take that risk.
[01:40:12.130 --> 01:40:14.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry, I cannot find this option.
[01:40:14.890 --> 01:40:19.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: This, Rebel, is a special kind of hell that you've never brought to us before.
[01:40:20.490 --> 01:40:24.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: They give you 20 megabytes of...
[01:40:24.650 --> 01:40:26.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I cannot find this option.
[01:40:26.410 --> 01:40:26.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like tethering?
[01:40:28.690 --> 01:40:30.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is there a button I can press?
[01:40:30.530 --> 01:40:31.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, tethering.
[01:40:32.490 --> 01:40:35.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they give you 20 gigabytes or megabytes or something.
[01:40:35.750 --> 01:40:38.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then they don't, you know, I used to say like 50 megabytes.
[01:40:39.190 --> 01:40:39.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, she's gone.
[01:40:39.610 --> 01:40:40.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: She's from Sprint.
[01:40:41.010 --> 01:40:42.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now it's like T-Mobile now.
[01:40:42.670 --> 01:40:44.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: It gives you 20 megabytes now.
[01:40:44.790 --> 01:40:45.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then you know what it does?
[01:40:46.090 --> 01:40:48.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it goes to like 20...
[01:40:48.610 --> 01:40:49.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:40:49.290 --> 01:40:49.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, she's back.
[01:40:51.010 --> 01:40:53.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Rebel, you're going to have to get rid of your friend here.
[01:40:53.390 --> 01:40:54.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: She's driving me crazy.
[01:40:55.490 --> 01:40:56.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know.
[01:40:58.470 --> 01:41:00.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I could not find this option.
[01:41:00.490 --> 01:41:01.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're responsible for her.
[01:41:01.770 --> 01:41:02.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You brought her into this conversation.
[01:41:02.990 --> 01:41:03.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've got to take her out.
[01:41:05.850 --> 01:41:06.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:41:06.830 --> 01:41:07.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:41:07.290 --> 01:41:07.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you get rid of her?
[01:41:08.230 --> 01:41:08.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[01:41:08.470 --> 01:41:09.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah.
[01:41:09.590 --> 01:41:09.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:41:09.970 --> 01:41:11.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: She's not coming back, I hope.
[01:41:12.470 --> 01:41:12.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[01:41:13.110 --> 01:41:13.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: When I...
[01:41:13.290 --> 01:41:13.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: What did I say?
[01:41:13.870 --> 01:41:18.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: I said, I don't think it's a good idea for you to connect to something on the air.
[01:41:18.530 --> 01:41:19.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was I not proven right?
[01:41:19.910 --> 01:41:20.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry.
[01:41:20.510 --> 01:41:20.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:41:20.990 --> 01:41:22.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe next time you'll listen.
[01:41:24.210 --> 01:41:26.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: When you get 20...
[01:41:26.170 --> 01:41:27.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: It gets to 2080.
[01:41:27.610 --> 01:41:28.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's not going to listen.
[01:41:28.250 --> 01:41:30.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, it gets to 2080.
[01:41:30.970 --> 01:41:34.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: When you have to, like, 20 megabytes of free tethering.
[01:41:36.710 --> 01:41:37.270]  Okay.
[01:41:37.970 --> 01:41:41.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: What are you going to tether for 20 megabytes of today?
[01:41:42.090 --> 01:41:45.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: I fell off this conversation a while back when...
[01:41:45.310 --> 01:41:46.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: 20 megabytes for...
[01:41:46.570 --> 01:41:49.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: If it's 20 megabytes for 20 gig, I think it's 20 megabytes.
[01:41:49.290 --> 01:41:49.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's gigabytes.
[01:41:49.930 --> 01:41:50.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe it's terabytes.
[01:41:50.870 --> 01:41:51.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Who knows?
[01:41:52.250 --> 01:41:53.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's gigabytes per month.
[01:41:53.850 --> 01:42:02.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, for a wireless carrier like T-Mobile, they will throttle you after you go over a certain amount and it becomes incredibly slow.
[01:42:02.690 --> 01:42:04.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's a terrible thing, especially if you're traveling.
[01:42:04.750 --> 01:42:04.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:42:05.050 --> 01:42:05.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Happened to us.
[01:42:06.730 --> 01:42:08.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Always good to have a backup.
[01:42:08.430 --> 01:42:11.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is one of the reasons, you know, having a prepaid or a local cell phone.
[01:42:11.890 --> 01:42:12.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but 20...
[01:42:12.210 --> 01:42:13.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: The 2880?
[01:42:13.510 --> 01:42:13.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[01:42:13.790 --> 01:42:14.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're not in the 90s.
[01:42:14.750 --> 01:42:15.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's crazy.
[01:42:15.270 --> 01:42:16.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, they really do.
[01:42:16.550 --> 01:42:17.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: They throttle you.
[01:42:17.170 --> 01:42:17.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's punishment.
[01:42:18.110 --> 01:42:21.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're, like, they're so overbearing about it.
[01:42:21.350 --> 01:42:24.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some carriers will give you warning, fair warning and all of that.
[01:42:25.710 --> 01:42:29.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I really, I feel for you.
[01:42:30.070 --> 01:42:31.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why it's good to look for Wi-Fi, too.
[01:42:31.910 --> 01:42:37.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Some warn you when you're at 90%, and that's not much time for you to change your habits and avoid being throttled.
[01:42:39.030 --> 01:42:40.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right, but then you get 50...
[01:42:40.870 --> 01:42:43.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: You get to Sprint, you get 50 megabytes per month.
[01:42:43.730 --> 01:42:53.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, this is something worth comparing and maybe publicizing a little bit, saying how many megs or gigs or terabytes or whatever you get for each phone company.
[01:42:54.670 --> 01:42:55.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and we'll...
[01:42:55.590 --> 01:42:56.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: But then it could be under 20.
[01:42:57.190 --> 01:42:57.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[01:42:58.150 --> 01:43:07.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because I know T-Mobile was offering unlimited data, but it's at 2G rates.
[01:43:07.550 --> 01:43:09.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that is ridiculous.
[01:43:09.170 --> 01:43:15.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, 5G rates, it's unlimited data when you're on your phone, but not when you're using your phone as a tethering thing.
[01:43:17.050 --> 01:43:17.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:43:18.010 --> 01:43:23.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: When the speeds were much slower, unlimited and larger packages seemed much more...
[01:43:24.330 --> 01:43:33.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: They had less control over the devices in some ways, as far as turning features on and off, the granularity, of course.
[01:43:33.470 --> 01:43:37.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there was less high-bandwidth content.
[01:43:37.610 --> 01:43:41.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: It would have mainly been sort of like email and communications and so forth.
[01:43:41.550 --> 01:43:49.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: So as it sort of shifted, the control over a lot of that stuff, whether you can become a hotspot, whether you can tether, that's changed too.
[01:43:49.570 --> 01:43:58.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of that is the upgrades and changes in handsets, allowing them to program and set the terms of their network.
[01:43:59.290 --> 01:44:01.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it feels like punishment in a lot of ways.
[01:44:01.310 --> 01:44:05.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, a lot of people swear by our... and swear at, actually, our cable companies.
[01:44:05.230 --> 01:44:07.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they do have hotspots all over the place.
[01:44:07.570 --> 01:44:11.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you log into one of those, you get pretty high speeds.
[01:44:11.290 --> 01:44:15.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you don't have a cable account, you can always borrow somebody's password.
[01:44:16.270 --> 01:44:19.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oftentimes, it's not that big a deal to share that.
[01:44:19.690 --> 01:44:25.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then you can go virtually anywhere in the area and always be assured of some kind of a connection.
[01:44:26.710 --> 01:44:27.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[01:44:27.170 --> 01:44:28.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: But then they don't have Touch-Tone service.
[01:44:28.990 --> 01:44:29.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like when I...
[01:44:29.770 --> 01:44:31.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, you get like...
[01:44:31.430 --> 01:44:36.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they don't give me Touch-Tone service after like a few minutes.
[01:44:36.310 --> 01:44:38.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, because now I...
[01:44:38.110 --> 01:44:41.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: When I make a call, it like takes so long to dial now.
[01:44:41.750 --> 01:44:42.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because you only get...
[01:44:42.670 --> 01:44:47.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they give you Touch-Tone service for so many calls a month.
[01:44:47.390 --> 01:44:49.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, you know, you don't get...
[01:44:49.250 --> 01:44:49.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait.
[01:44:49.750 --> 01:44:50.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: What?
[01:44:50.510 --> 01:44:51.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hold on a sec.
[01:44:51.390 --> 01:44:52.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Who's cutting off Touch-Tone service?
[01:44:54.130 --> 01:44:54.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sprint.
[01:44:54.930 --> 01:44:55.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Precept.
[01:44:56.130 --> 01:44:56.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: T-Mobile.
[01:44:57.390 --> 01:45:01.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: After like a certain amount of minutes, you know, they give you pulse dialing.
[01:45:02.250 --> 01:45:02.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait.
[01:45:02.710 --> 01:45:03.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's not right.
[01:45:03.670 --> 01:45:04.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hold on a sec.
[01:45:04.370 --> 01:45:06.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: On your cell phone, you're getting pulse dialing?
[01:45:07.250 --> 01:45:08.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's some kind of a joke?
[01:45:09.370 --> 01:45:09.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:45:09.870 --> 01:45:11.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: You get a tape per month.
[01:45:11.250 --> 01:45:12.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, if you want...
[01:45:12.030 --> 01:45:12.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: I called them about this.
[01:45:12.850 --> 01:45:14.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: They said, oh, you can get...
[01:45:14.350 --> 01:45:17.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, for an extra $10, you know, you can get the...
[01:45:17.950 --> 01:45:19.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, pulse dial...
[01:45:19.310 --> 01:45:20.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, Touch-Tone service.
[01:45:20.210 --> 01:45:20.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's having a...
[01:45:20.890 --> 01:45:21.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you having a laugh?
[01:45:21.770 --> 01:45:22.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think he's making fun of us.
[01:45:22.830 --> 01:45:23.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, this...
[01:45:23.170 --> 01:45:24.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're making fun of us, aren't you?
[01:45:25.270 --> 01:45:28.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no such thing as pulse dialing on a goddamn cell phone.
[01:45:29.130 --> 01:45:29.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry.
[01:45:29.970 --> 01:45:33.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, then why do we have 28 connections on a...
[01:45:34.690 --> 01:45:35.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[01:45:35.690 --> 01:45:37.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's not related to this.
[01:45:37.030 --> 01:45:37.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's data.
[01:45:38.070 --> 01:45:40.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a different part of the baseband, you know...
[01:45:40.650 --> 01:45:41.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or maybe it's the same thing.
[01:45:42.010 --> 01:45:42.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a different part of the phone.
[01:45:43.050 --> 01:45:47.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you expected to make a rotary phone call on a cell phone that doesn't have a rotary dial?
[01:45:48.350 --> 01:45:49.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, think about that.
[01:45:51.750 --> 01:45:52.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's see.
[01:45:53.670 --> 01:45:54.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: 1-800...
[01:45:54.550 --> 01:45:57.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, let's demonstrate 1-800-MAYAN-ISM.
[01:45:57.230 --> 01:45:57.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, no.
[01:45:57.590 --> 01:45:58.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: No more demonstrations.
[01:45:58.730 --> 01:45:58.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, no.
[01:45:58.850 --> 01:45:59.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh my God.
[01:45:59.950 --> 01:46:00.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think...
[01:46:02.210 --> 01:46:04.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've revoked your permissions.
[01:46:05.770 --> 01:46:06.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:46:07.310 --> 01:46:09.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Rebel, one final thing from you.
[01:46:09.330 --> 01:46:10.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then we're going to move on.
[01:46:10.490 --> 01:46:10.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:46:10.950 --> 01:46:12.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Next month...
[01:46:12.450 --> 01:46:13.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, let's see.
[01:46:13.150 --> 01:46:16.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, next week I'll be here, but next I'm going to Russia in...
[01:46:16.750 --> 01:46:17.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're going to Russia again?
[01:46:17.990 --> 01:46:18.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you coming back?
[01:46:18.830 --> 01:46:19.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wait, wait.
[01:46:19.350 --> 01:46:25.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: You went to Russia in the middle of the war last year, and you got away with that.
[01:46:25.430 --> 01:46:26.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now you're going back?
[01:46:27.230 --> 01:46:28.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to St. Petersburg.
[01:46:29.350 --> 01:46:31.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's Russia, so yeah, you're going back.
[01:46:33.290 --> 01:46:36.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Beautiful city, but boy, you know, I don't know.
[01:46:37.090 --> 01:46:41.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if it's a good idea, but I said that last time you didn't listen, so what can I do?
[01:46:42.010 --> 01:46:44.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, and I had a great time last time, so...
[01:46:44.630 --> 01:46:45.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[01:46:46.070 --> 01:46:49.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you had a great time once, you know you're going to have a great time every time, so...
[01:46:49.630 --> 01:46:51.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can't argue with that kind of logic.
[01:46:52.430 --> 01:46:54.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: So when do you go?
[01:46:55.550 --> 01:46:58.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: June 1st, so like maybe 10 days.
[01:46:58.490 --> 01:47:00.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's hope it's 10 days.
[01:47:02.130 --> 01:47:03.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go to Finland, yeah.
[01:47:03.690 --> 01:47:05.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you're going to go to St. Petersburg...
[01:47:05.030 --> 01:47:06.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I could.
[01:47:06.290 --> 01:47:06.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go through Finland.
[01:47:07.230 --> 01:47:07.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I could.
[01:47:07.890 --> 01:47:10.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you can't, because they're not doing the ferry thing.
[01:47:10.330 --> 01:47:11.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Otherwise, I would.
[01:47:11.650 --> 01:47:12.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: What ferry?
[01:47:12.270 --> 01:47:12.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: What, from Estonia?
[01:47:14.910 --> 01:47:15.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know what...
[01:47:16.330 --> 01:47:18.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: All the way to Estonia and all this, I...
[01:47:18.790 --> 01:47:20.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know where the ferry is.
[01:47:20.810 --> 01:47:22.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: The only ferry I know of is between Estonia.
[01:47:22.830 --> 01:47:24.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: There used to be a ferry from St. Petersburg to...
[01:47:24.890 --> 01:47:26.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, why would there be a ferry?
[01:47:26.570 --> 01:47:27.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a land route.
[01:47:29.190 --> 01:47:30.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can take a train.
[01:47:30.890 --> 01:47:31.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry, what?
[01:47:31.710 --> 01:47:34.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can take a train from Helsinki to St. Petersburg.
[01:47:35.750 --> 01:47:40.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: It gets a little contentious at the border, but once you get past that, everything's fine.
[01:47:40.370 --> 01:47:41.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if they're doing there now, but...
[01:47:41.430 --> 01:47:42.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: They might not.
[01:47:42.170 --> 01:47:44.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: They might have canceled that, because everyone's angry.
[01:47:44.950 --> 01:47:48.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, yeah, I don't know of a ferry that goes between the two cities.
[01:47:48.950 --> 01:47:50.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: That would be...
[01:47:51.710 --> 01:47:53.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: But Finland is a great place to visit.
[01:47:54.690 --> 01:47:55.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I'd like to go visit.
[01:47:55.950 --> 01:47:59.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: And maybe next year, I'd like to go visit Ireland and Sweden.
[01:47:59.690 --> 01:48:00.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not Sweden.
[01:48:00.310 --> 01:48:03.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Switzerland and Italy and...
[01:48:05.130 --> 01:48:09.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just do it in the right order, because otherwise you're bouncing all over Europe.
[01:48:09.370 --> 01:48:10.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yeah, that's true.
[01:48:10.630 --> 01:48:12.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: I go to Ireland first, because that's closer.
[01:48:12.890 --> 01:48:18.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then I go to, you know, England and then to, like, Switzerland and then Italy.
[01:48:19.970 --> 01:48:26.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, hopefully you must give you the same recording, you know, like 1-800, like my ANI is.
[01:48:27.410 --> 01:48:28.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it gives you the same...
[01:48:28.570 --> 01:48:30.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: I forgot what it is.
[01:48:31.030 --> 01:48:32.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: You want to hold and I'll, um...
[01:48:34.870 --> 01:48:35.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Someone else answer him.
[01:48:35.930 --> 01:48:36.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's not...
[01:48:36.710 --> 01:48:38.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, we're not playing this game anymore.
[01:48:40.010 --> 01:48:42.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: But you can call and find out your ANI.
[01:48:43.050 --> 01:48:43.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait a minute.
[01:48:44.710 --> 01:48:46.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: But we're going to keep ours to ourselves.
[01:48:49.790 --> 01:48:50.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let me see.
[01:48:50.870 --> 01:48:52.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Glad you're having fun with us, though.
[01:48:52.670 --> 01:48:52.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[01:48:54.850 --> 01:48:56.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: 800-M-Y.
[01:48:56.370 --> 01:48:57.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I'll do it.
[01:49:00.320 --> 01:49:01.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let me, uh...
[01:49:01.400 --> 01:49:02.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let me do it on the computer then.
[01:49:03.160 --> 01:49:03.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, then.
[01:49:03.740 --> 01:49:05.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, it's been good hearing from you, Rebel.
[01:49:05.200 --> 01:49:05.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to move on.
[01:49:06.040 --> 01:49:06.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for your call.
[01:49:07.140 --> 01:49:08.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And please, won't you call back again?
[01:49:11.200 --> 01:49:11.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:49:11.720 --> 01:49:11.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey.
[01:49:12.120 --> 01:49:12.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have a good night.
[01:49:14.820 --> 01:49:17.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had this, um...
[01:49:17.300 --> 01:49:17.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: This exchange...
[01:49:17.900 --> 01:49:19.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: While that was going on, I was multitasking.
[01:49:19.620 --> 01:49:20.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was doing some other things.
[01:49:20.280 --> 01:49:30.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I specifically asked Bard, um, if, uh, they would, uh, basically promise not to replace a striking Hollywood worker, or a writer, rather.
[01:49:31.440 --> 01:49:33.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, would you like to hear the response I got?
[01:49:34.600 --> 01:49:35.060]  Sure.
[01:49:35.240 --> 01:49:35.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, uh...
[01:49:35.920 --> 01:49:36.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's quite intriguing.
[01:49:37.100 --> 01:49:44.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am a large language model, also known as a conversational AI, or chatbot, trained to be informative and comprehensive.
[01:49:44.200 --> 01:49:52.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am trained on a massive amount of text data, and I'm able to communicate and generate human-like text in response to a wide range of prompts and questions.
[01:49:52.540 --> 01:49:56.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: For example, I can provide summaries of factual topics or create stories.
[01:49:57.040 --> 01:50:00.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I do not have the ability to replace a striking Hollywood writer.
[01:50:00.500 --> 01:50:07.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am not a writer, and I do not have the skills or experience necessary to create high-quality content.
[01:50:15.500 --> 01:50:17.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not exactly what I asked, but okay.
[01:50:18.020 --> 01:50:24.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: I support the striking Hollywood writers, and, um, I hope that they are able to reach a fair agreement with the studios.
[01:50:24.500 --> 01:50:31.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I believe that the writers are essential to the creation of high-quality content, and they deserve to be compensated fairly for their work.
[01:50:32.040 --> 01:50:46.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of surprised to hear Bard saying that about striking Hollywood workers, but Bard seems to be up-to-date on, on, on the strike, or maybe that's just a canned phrase that, uh, Bard will always say about, about striking, striking writers or striking anybody.
[01:50:46.960 --> 01:50:50.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's also, it's also a matter of just, it found that text somewhere out there.
[01:50:51.180 --> 01:50:58.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: It seems like text that would fit in a response to this particular query, but Bard, being a large language model, is a computer program.
[01:50:58.620 --> 01:50:59.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: It does not support anything.
[01:50:59.820 --> 01:51:01.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: It does not believe anything.
[01:51:01.720 --> 01:51:03.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't get pissed off.
[01:51:03.360 --> 01:51:04.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't, you know, fall in love.
[01:51:04.720 --> 01:51:05.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: It just runs programs.
[01:51:06.660 --> 01:51:14.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so, even, even reading a response like that, it's, it's, uh, it's playing at more humanity than is actually going on.
[01:51:15.300 --> 01:51:15.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:51:15.900 --> 01:51:25.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think the, the conversation we had earlier with Rebel, it kind of got me thinking about this too, is like, it's about how people are using it and who exactly is using it.
[01:51:25.640 --> 01:51:29.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you're using it and it's responding that way because you've prompted it.
[01:51:30.060 --> 01:51:40.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Someone else could prompt it and get something entirely different for an entirely different end, um, based on a, a, a wholly different subject matter.
[01:51:40.500 --> 01:51:45.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Bard isn't going to take a stance or be in solidarity in any way.
[01:51:45.420 --> 01:52:09.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the, the scenario that Rebel brought up got me intrigued because we might individually be warned by Google or, or, uh, um, ChatGPT, uh, the, they're different projects, different degrees of, uh, willingness and, and capability to have certain conversations or divulge certain things.
[01:52:09.640 --> 01:52:19.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the, the idea that was raised about customer service and companies hooking, quote, hooking this up now, there's no evidence.
[01:52:19.400 --> 01:52:21.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't have a story about that necessarily.
[01:52:21.400 --> 01:52:29.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but like I mentioned earlier, the ability to add this to things that are already like IVR systems or home assistance stuff.
[01:52:29.760 --> 01:52:35.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: We talk to is not totally like out of the realm of possibility at this point.
[01:52:35.600 --> 01:52:40.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of just sort of waiting to be, uh, snapped in, so to speak.
[01:52:40.720 --> 01:52:47.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: So my point, companies that implement this, they want to cut costs.
[01:52:47.460 --> 01:53:11.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Their, their, their impetus is mostly out of an organizational, um, a need, uh, an ability to, um, you know, have customer retention and basically, um, uh, maximize the, uh, human resources they do have, um, as they scale up and, and, you know, uh, provide a good or service on mass.
[01:53:11.940 --> 01:53:28.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they'll use this if it is integrated someday into customer service, they'll use this with, with, you know, their goals in mind, not necessarily the same goals when you're signing the agreement, using it personally.
[01:53:28.160 --> 01:53:38.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm, I'm kind of intrigued by that, like third-party use, like you're talking to it, giving it, uh, personal info to pay your utility bill or do something.
[01:53:39.480 --> 01:53:41.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: But how well are they containing it?
[01:53:41.860 --> 01:53:59.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: If their goal isn't the same as like, when you agree personally, their goal is to use it in ways and, you know, how much, how much resources then if, if their goals are being met, how much, how are they not implementing things that actually like safety and security protocols?
[01:53:59.900 --> 01:54:12.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and even if they did say they were implementing it, how could they even guarantee it if it's being loaded up with account numbers and, um, personally, uh, identifiable information and so on and so forth.
[01:54:12.060 --> 01:54:31.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it just occurred to me in that conversation that how you use it and who's using it, it, whether the, but the info becomes retrain part of data sets a new and, and retrains and as it refines it, um, going forward.
[01:54:31.040 --> 01:54:53.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it just seems like it's, it's, it may be easy for them to implement, but it's hard to use in a safe way and just as examples is, uh, um, one scenario, imagine all the different companies and places that might be trying to save on, um, human customer service or something like that.
[01:54:54.220 --> 01:55:11.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And all of a sudden, all these different ways you, um, you might ordinarily have a private conversation or, uh, instead, uh, being integrated into this large language network of neural network and so forth, uh, we have no more calls.
[01:55:11.640 --> 01:55:11.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.
[01:55:11.860 --> 01:55:12.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just checked.
[01:55:13.000 --> 01:55:13.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:55:13.860 --> 01:55:16.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's fine with me because we're just about at the end of this hour.
[01:55:16.620 --> 01:55:16.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it?
[01:55:17.080 --> 01:55:17.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:55:17.380 --> 01:55:20.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're any, any closing thoughts from, uh, from people.
[01:55:22.880 --> 01:55:28.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, just, uh, you know, keep your eyes open, uh, be aware of what's going on.
[01:55:28.480 --> 01:55:32.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you talk to a computer, you're not talking to a human, you're not talking to a mind.
[01:55:33.000 --> 01:55:38.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, and, uh, use, use things that are fun and stop doing them when they stop being fun.
[01:55:39.560 --> 01:55:39.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:55:39.960 --> 01:55:41.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And don't expect anyone else to agree with you.
[01:55:41.760 --> 01:55:44.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would say get spring projects together.
[01:55:44.620 --> 01:55:45.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: In addition to that.
[01:55:45.520 --> 01:55:45.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[01:55:46.180 --> 01:55:46.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[01:55:46.740 --> 01:55:52.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hack some stuff, you know, things you've been putting off, get to it, get to work.
[01:55:52.140 --> 01:55:57.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's lots, lots to do and it'll keep you away from the artificial intelligence.
[01:55:57.200 --> 01:56:01.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have an audio cassette I have to fix, so I'm looking forward to that project.
[01:56:02.180 --> 01:56:03.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that a spring project?
[01:56:04.080 --> 01:56:04.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Absolutely.
[01:56:04.600 --> 01:56:05.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, good, good.
[01:56:05.340 --> 01:56:05.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, get it together.
[01:56:06.060 --> 01:56:06.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm going to do that.
[01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:07.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are springs in one of those.
[01:56:07.840 --> 01:56:08.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[01:56:08.420 --> 01:56:09.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Several, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:56:09.540 --> 01:56:09.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:56:10.400 --> 01:56:13.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, so, uh, all sorts of other things.
[01:56:13.520 --> 01:56:16.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back next week with another edition of Off The Hook at 7 p.m. and over time at 8 p.m.
[01:56:17.820 --> 01:56:26.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, again, you can write to us, oth@2600.com, with your, your thoughts, criticisms, suggestions, whatnot.
[01:56:27.880 --> 01:56:30.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: We always enjoy hearing from our listeners.
[01:56:32.360 --> 01:56:33.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night, everyone.