[00:01.060 --> 00:01.580] [SPEAKER_12]: C.J. hearings.
[00:02.340 --> 00:04.440] [SPEAKER_13]: Michael, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:04.880 --> 00:07.040] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you very much for asking me.
[00:07.120 --> 00:12.140] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you very much for the indispensable work that the electronic editor winds up doing.
[00:12.740 --> 00:14.160] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Michael.
[00:19.270 --> 00:21.150] [SPEAKER_09]: The time now is 7 p.m.
[00:21.250 --> 00:29.510] [SPEAKER_09]: Stay tuned for Off The Hook, coming up here on WBAI New York, 99.5 FM and WBAI.org Online.
[00:29.550 --> 00:30.450] [SPEAKER_09]: Stay tuned.
[00:44.520 --> 00:46.200] [SPEAKER_14]: This is Telecom, Mongolia.
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[01:06.780 --> 01:09.780] [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you for listening to Off The Hook.
[02:54.200 --> 02:56.320] [SPEAKER_04]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:56.400 --> 02:58.100] [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:58.100 --> 03:03.800] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Michael, staying with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[03:04.480 --> 03:04.820] [SPEAKER_04]: Correct.
[03:05.380 --> 03:07.000] [SPEAKER_04]: On Skype-land, we have Rob.
[03:07.760 --> 03:08.720] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[03:09.040 --> 03:09.820] [SPEAKER_04]: We have Gila.
[03:10.320 --> 03:11.120] [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[03:11.480 --> 03:12.280] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have Alex.
[03:13.140 --> 03:14.360] [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, everyone.
[03:15.020 --> 03:30.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay, you know, this is going to be interesting, because, as you know, we talk about all sorts of issues in the hacker world on a weekly basis, things going on in various forums.
[03:31.020 --> 03:37.020] [SPEAKER_04]: And today is going to be a doozy, because we're going to talk about some of the things that we're involved in a little bit.
[03:37.560 --> 03:49.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Today is the day that tickets for our 15th Hackers on Planet Earth conference officially went on sale, and it did not go well.
[03:51.600 --> 03:57.540] [SPEAKER_04]: We always said we'd be honest, and we are honest when it comes to the good things and the bad things.
[03:58.420 --> 03:59.820] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, we've dealt with a lot.
[04:00.020 --> 04:02.640] [SPEAKER_04]: We've dealt with the hotel being torn down.
[04:02.820 --> 04:04.240] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a pile of rubble now.
[04:04.380 --> 04:05.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, it's not even a pile of rubble anymore.
[04:05.760 --> 04:06.960] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just a vacant lot.
[04:07.820 --> 04:09.400] [SPEAKER_04]: We've dealt with a pandemic.
[04:09.900 --> 04:15.720] [SPEAKER_04]: We've dealt with all kinds of hardships and challenges over the years.
[04:16.280 --> 04:30.280] [SPEAKER_04]: And the last few, last few conferences have been a struggle, because we've had to relocate people into a different borough, into a different environment, onto a college campus instead of a hotel in Midtown.
[04:31.120 --> 04:37.300] [SPEAKER_04]: We've had to deal with having to cancel in 2020 in person and do the entire thing online.
[04:38.160 --> 04:45.760] [SPEAKER_04]: We've had to deal with all sorts of Herculean tasks and just getting the thing to run in the first place.
[04:46.040 --> 04:55.280] [SPEAKER_04]: And this day, traditionally in January, although two years ago it was in February, is the day that we open it all up to the public.
[04:55.280 --> 04:59.420] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's kind of like the starting pistol.
[04:59.540 --> 05:02.980] [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of like where we all get started running down the road that leads to hope.
[05:05.160 --> 05:09.560] [SPEAKER_04]: And two years ago, we weren't sure what to expect, because we were in a new location for the first time.
[05:09.920 --> 05:14.280] [SPEAKER_04]: We figured it would probably be less of a response, and we were correct in that.
[05:14.400 --> 05:27.640] [SPEAKER_04]: It was about, I'd say about half the response that we normally would get, which is fine, because we actually wanted a smaller crowd at the new location, so we weren't overwhelmed as we had been in the past, when the crowds just got too big.
[05:28.160 --> 05:31.420] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's kind of what we were expecting today.
[05:33.260 --> 05:40.560] [SPEAKER_04]: And unfortunately, we got about half of what we got last time, which was about half of what we were used to.
[05:40.720 --> 05:48.480] [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, you see, the thing that kind of baffles us right now is that nobody was expecting this.
[05:49.440 --> 05:51.660] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not sure what the reason is.
[05:51.660 --> 05:53.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, it's possible.
[05:53.740 --> 05:55.980] [SPEAKER_04]: It's possible that we've become irrelevant.
[05:56.340 --> 06:03.320] [SPEAKER_04]: It's possible that we're not, you know, considered one of the better hacker conferences anymore.
[06:03.580 --> 06:09.520] [SPEAKER_04]: That's, you know, we have to open ourselves up to that possibility, that something has changed.
[06:09.520 --> 06:19.380] [SPEAKER_04]: But what's weird about that, that potential scenario, is that relatively few people said anything critical after the last time.
[06:19.380 --> 06:26.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there were critiques, there were complaints, just not very many, a handful.
[06:26.860 --> 06:29.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Out of all the people, I think maybe less than 10.
[06:30.100 --> 06:31.540] [SPEAKER_04]: That's all the attendees.
[06:31.780 --> 06:41.780] [SPEAKER_04]: And meanwhile, all kinds of accolades and compliments and happiness that we found a new location at St. John's University.
[06:43.860 --> 06:53.820] [SPEAKER_04]: And so we planned this conference this year, HOPE XV, set for July 12th through 14th.
[06:53.880 --> 06:54.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Did I have it right?
[06:54.400 --> 06:55.360] [SPEAKER_04]: 12th through 14th, right?
[06:55.540 --> 06:55.740] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[06:55.740 --> 06:57.040] [SPEAKER_04]: So many dates.
[06:58.500 --> 07:03.660] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, we were expecting at least the same amount of response.
[07:04.280 --> 07:07.420] [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, that's kind of weird right there.
[07:07.700 --> 07:18.620] [SPEAKER_04]: The other thing that all of us have noticed over the past few months is that there is almost no interaction in online communities, online social media.
[07:19.840 --> 07:24.660] [SPEAKER_04]: No response when you tweet something out, if you even call it that anymore.
[07:26.380 --> 07:31.060] [SPEAKER_04]: You used to get people retweeting, responding, saying something.
[07:31.320 --> 07:32.260] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't anymore.
[07:32.380 --> 07:33.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, we know why.
[07:33.780 --> 07:42.860] [SPEAKER_04]: We know it's because Elon Musk, you know, threw a hand grenade into the company, which is why we use Mastodon, which is why we use Bluesky.
[07:43.820 --> 07:47.420] [SPEAKER_04]: But those forums aren't doing much better themselves.
[07:47.960 --> 07:48.680] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they're new.
[07:48.900 --> 07:49.760] [SPEAKER_04]: They're fragmented.
[07:51.000 --> 07:53.420] [SPEAKER_04]: And not everybody has gone to the same one.
[07:53.580 --> 07:57.340] [SPEAKER_04]: So, it's gotten so much harder just to communicate in the first place.
[07:57.460 --> 08:00.280] [SPEAKER_04]: So, that could be something as well.
[08:02.000 --> 08:03.600] [SPEAKER_04]: Then, there's our mailing list.
[08:03.700 --> 08:09.400] [SPEAKER_04]: We have a mailing list of about maybe 6,000 or so people.
[08:09.400 --> 08:15.660] [SPEAKER_04]: People who have attended the conferences in the past and spoken at the conferences and volunteered and all that kind of thing.
[08:18.160 --> 08:31.040] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've emailed them a few times over the past couple of weeks with announcements saying when tickets are going on sale, when the call for participation is opening up, which also happened today.
[08:32.840 --> 08:37.740] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've gotten a number of reports from people who say they never got our emails.
[08:39.060 --> 08:45.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Because apparently, Google has decided that mail from hope.net or 2600.com is by default spam.
[08:48.900 --> 08:57.520] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you can't reach people to tell them to read their mail because it went to spam if your mail to them goes to spam.
[08:57.620 --> 08:58.860] [SPEAKER_04]: You see the problem here.
[08:59.180 --> 09:01.280] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I don't know how many people that affected.
[09:01.800 --> 09:05.340] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a significant number from what we heard.
[09:06.880 --> 09:18.700] [SPEAKER_04]: So, these new challenges, these challenges that have nothing to do with us are crippling communication and could be the reason why this unexpected result happened.
[09:18.800 --> 09:22.800] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, you know, I'm not saying this is something that's irrecoverable.
[09:22.920 --> 09:24.640] [SPEAKER_04]: It is something that is unsustainable, though.
[09:25.040 --> 09:30.820] [SPEAKER_04]: We are not able to run a conference if we don't get a significant response from attendees.
[09:30.820 --> 09:35.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, you need the attendees to cover the costs.
[09:36.140 --> 09:50.180] [SPEAKER_04]: And 2600 sponsors the conferences and has been faced with all kinds of other challenges, such as Amazon canceling all magazine subscriptions.
[09:50.840 --> 09:53.540] [SPEAKER_04]: 2600 being a magazine, in fact, it hit kind of hard.
[09:54.120 --> 10:02.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Fortunately, we were able to develop an online, a digital edition, a digital subscription to the magazine.
[10:03.480 --> 10:07.680] [SPEAKER_04]: It took the better part of a year, but we have a good system.
[10:07.780 --> 10:08.760] [SPEAKER_04]: We're proud of it.
[10:08.900 --> 10:16.980] [SPEAKER_04]: But it doesn't bring in nearly as much as those Amazon Kindle subscriptions, which all got canceled.
[10:18.280 --> 10:25.080] [SPEAKER_04]: So, there are all these other things that have nothing to do with anything we have done other than exist.
[10:25.380 --> 10:34.520] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, closing of bookstores all over the country, rising paper costs, and shrinking distributor returns.
[10:34.780 --> 10:37.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Just one challenge after another.
[10:38.260 --> 10:42.160] [SPEAKER_04]: And hope, hope is, well, it's our hope.
[10:42.300 --> 10:52.740] [SPEAKER_04]: It's our hope for the future, that we can all get together and have this massive gathering twice, or once every two years, rather.
[10:55.460 --> 10:57.720] [SPEAKER_04]: And that kind of gets us out of the woods.
[10:59.320 --> 11:03.520] [SPEAKER_04]: But now, we're dealing with something unpredicted that is happening.
[11:03.780 --> 11:07.020] [SPEAKER_04]: And, well, I just figured we should let people know.
[11:08.060 --> 11:09.380] [SPEAKER_04]: And not pretend.
[11:09.560 --> 11:12.500] [SPEAKER_04]: Not pretend that everything is going great, because, well, this is a challenge.
[11:12.660 --> 11:13.680] [SPEAKER_04]: It's something we weren't expecting.
[11:14.560 --> 11:17.160] [SPEAKER_04]: And we need to figure out how to fix it.
[11:17.540 --> 11:20.860] [SPEAKER_04]: We need to figure out if there's some kind of a technical issue.
[11:21.560 --> 11:29.660] [SPEAKER_04]: If there is something, some algorithm that is keeping us from being able to communicate with people, we need to be able to address that.
[11:30.000 --> 11:41.860] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think the worst thing we could do right now is just kind of, you know, whistle a nice tune and pretend everything is okay and deal with challenges which are insurmountable.
[11:44.680 --> 11:51.340] [SPEAKER_04]: So, if a ton of people are committed to coming to the conference, we can do all kinds of things.
[11:51.460 --> 11:52.520] [SPEAKER_04]: We can do amazing things.
[11:53.640 --> 11:56.600] [SPEAKER_04]: And if we don't have that, there's very little we can do.
[11:56.760 --> 11:59.320] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is, unfortunately, the reality of the situation.
[12:01.600 --> 12:03.280] [SPEAKER_04]: So, maybe it was just a bad day.
[12:04.700 --> 12:07.180] [SPEAKER_04]: But I figured we should just put it out there.
[12:07.980 --> 12:13.100] [SPEAKER_04]: Thoughts from anybody, since I've stunk up the room with this little bit of news.
[12:15.460 --> 12:16.820] [SPEAKER_13]: I remain hopeful.
[12:17.120 --> 12:22.740] [SPEAKER_13]: I remain hopeful because I know that HOPE, over the years, you know, it started out, it was a very small event.
[12:23.060 --> 12:24.200] [SPEAKER_13]: Over the years, it grew.
[12:24.420 --> 12:26.020] [SPEAKER_13]: Then it downsized a bit.
[12:26.220 --> 12:29.300] [SPEAKER_13]: And it's in sort of a wobbly stage right now.
[12:29.400 --> 12:36.000] [SPEAKER_13]: But I know that the community of people at HOPE are one of the best crowds on this planet.
[12:36.000 --> 12:39.040] [SPEAKER_13]: They have been amazing to be part of over the years.
[12:39.040 --> 12:41.820] [SPEAKER_13]: And they are the ones who make the conference what it is.
[12:42.220 --> 12:44.180] [SPEAKER_13]: And that's the people who present.
[12:44.360 --> 12:47.100] [SPEAKER_13]: That's the people who sign up to do things at HOPE.
[12:47.240 --> 12:50.000] [SPEAKER_13]: And that's the people who attend and become part of it.
[12:51.320 --> 12:59.280] [SPEAKER_13]: And through that, I think there is still a great community out there who wants to be part of this.
[12:59.280 --> 13:05.320] [SPEAKER_13]: I think more people are forthcoming.
[13:05.700 --> 13:07.440] [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's just a matter of some time.
[13:07.840 --> 13:12.040] [SPEAKER_13]: And, yeah, there are so many barriers nowadays to simple communication.
[13:13.360 --> 13:22.320] [SPEAKER_13]: But what we do here on this program and on this station and 2600 as a publisher and everything we do is basically communication.
[13:22.520 --> 13:23.860] [SPEAKER_13]: We're good at that sort of thing.
[13:23.900 --> 13:24.860] [SPEAKER_13]: And we can keep doing so.
[13:25.300 --> 13:26.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, it's interesting.
[13:26.980 --> 13:28.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Communication is the key.
[13:28.120 --> 13:31.660] [SPEAKER_04]: It's what we are constantly involved in.
[13:31.780 --> 13:39.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Also, constantly bemoaning the lack of in so many other parts of society, a lack of communication or just bad communication.
[13:39.500 --> 13:50.280] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, when you say that HOPE is in a wobbly stage, basically, I just want to make sure that we give all credit that's due to all the volunteers who keep HOPE going.
[13:50.280 --> 13:54.680] [SPEAKER_04]: I've never seen it as well organized as well organized as it was two years ago at St. John's.
[13:55.420 --> 14:02.160] [SPEAKER_04]: We've been through so much, as I pointed out a while ago with COVID, with having to relocate.
[14:02.160 --> 14:15.460] [SPEAKER_04]: But what we have learned in those years, and this would be the first time in really six years, assuming COVID doesn't come back again and make us all wear masks, that we would have a normal conference.
[14:15.460 --> 14:17.980] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've been so looking forward to that ever since 2018.
[14:18.380 --> 14:23.720] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's to see what we can do in a new space, a new open space.
[14:25.060 --> 14:27.360] [SPEAKER_04]: And there is so much room for expansion there.
[14:27.480 --> 14:31.560] [SPEAKER_04]: We could have a conference with 10 times as many people as what we were used to in the past.
[14:32.000 --> 14:33.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Do we want to do that?
[14:33.100 --> 14:34.940] [SPEAKER_04]: No, we don't want to do that because that's too many people.
[14:35.060 --> 14:38.160] [SPEAKER_04]: But the point is, we have the space to do things like that.
[14:38.660 --> 14:48.980] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's a real shame if we have to actually downsize and make the thing more limited when the potential is out there to do so much more.
[14:49.080 --> 14:49.500] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Alex.
[14:50.960 --> 14:51.440] [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[14:51.680 --> 14:58.120] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, Emmanuel, I can hear the concern in your voice here.
[14:58.120 --> 15:03.660] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's tainted with a little bit of sadness here, too.
[15:03.780 --> 15:08.400] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think hope has faced far greater challenges here.
[15:08.640 --> 15:16.120] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think that the issue is irrelevance for people going to other conferences based on my experience from two years ago.
[15:16.360 --> 15:17.220] [SPEAKER_05]: Not even two years ago.
[15:17.320 --> 15:18.700] [SPEAKER_05]: I guess a year and a half ago now.
[15:19.620 --> 15:22.820] [SPEAKER_05]: With St. John's and HOPE was that it was tremendously positive.
[15:23.060 --> 15:23.880] [SPEAKER_05]: People loved it.
[15:24.400 --> 15:34.880] [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, people with whom I had presented in 2020 have already reached out to me saying they want to submit an update to that presentation as a CFP for this year.
[15:35.300 --> 15:42.640] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of people that I know that are excited about attending and a lot of people I know that are excited about presenting and excited about the venue.
[15:42.640 --> 15:45.360] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think there's a tremendous amount of enthusiasm here.
[15:45.460 --> 15:53.940] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it's at all time to... and I don't think you're doing this, but I don't think that we should look at this in some kind of doomsday type manner.
[15:54.060 --> 15:58.640] [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is something that we need to pull our collective resources together.
[15:58.640 --> 16:00.740] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's a surmountable obstacle.
[16:01.680 --> 16:03.360] [SPEAKER_05]: And I do think Rob is right.
[16:03.460 --> 16:07.240] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think you're right, Emmanuel, that this is a communications issue.
[16:07.400 --> 16:12.840] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, with Twitter having gone literally down the tubes here, it's really hard to get the word out.
[16:12.940 --> 16:15.020] [SPEAKER_05]: That's primarily how people learned about these things.
[16:15.160 --> 16:16.660] [SPEAKER_05]: Everything else is so fragmented.
[16:16.820 --> 16:19.520] [SPEAKER_05]: Everything is federated in a way.
[16:19.640 --> 16:23.460] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's very, very difficult for anybody to learn of anything of this magnitude.
[16:24.240 --> 16:37.620] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, one thing I'm thinking about is if Google is rejecting mail from 2,600 servers, maybe when sending this out as a mailing list, maybe what we should do is use Google's own mail server.
[16:37.620 --> 16:41.760] [SPEAKER_04]: You see, Alex, that is always what they want you to do.
[16:41.960 --> 16:44.080] [SPEAKER_04]: If you have a problem with Google, use Google.
[16:44.380 --> 16:47.180] [SPEAKER_04]: That's almost their slogan now.
[16:47.180 --> 16:56.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, and we have gotten, just to give you an idea, we have gotten advice from people who want to help us get past this Google spam issue.
[16:56.800 --> 16:59.740] [SPEAKER_04]: They say, don't use words like hacker.
[17:00.340 --> 17:03.140] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's a hacker conference.
[17:03.660 --> 17:05.280] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a hacker magazine.
[17:05.280 --> 17:06.760] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a hacker radio show.
[17:06.860 --> 17:11.920] [SPEAKER_04]: You want us to stop saying hacker so that Google doesn't take offense and send us to spam.
[17:12.220 --> 17:14.460] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that is outrageous.
[17:14.560 --> 17:16.700] [SPEAKER_04]: That is absolutely incredible.
[17:16.700 --> 17:24.100] [SPEAKER_04]: And when I'm, you know, I don't want to sound paranoid because we can't be 100% sure this is the actual cause of the problem.
[17:24.260 --> 17:26.600] [SPEAKER_04]: Again, it could be us and we have to recognize that.
[17:26.760 --> 17:29.720] [SPEAKER_04]: We could be, you know, past our prime or whatever.
[17:30.300 --> 17:40.480] [SPEAKER_04]: I've had these conversations, but it just goes to show you the control, the control that these companies can have over something as basic as speech.
[17:40.480 --> 17:47.280] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, Amazon can shut down magazines and make it impossible for people to get even the New York Times on a Kindle anymore.
[17:47.560 --> 17:48.140] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[17:48.660 --> 17:59.060] [SPEAKER_04]: Google can make it impossible for you to communicate with one person or another person or a whole bunch of people, because if they don't approve of the way you send email, what you say in the email, they can simply block it.
[17:59.060 --> 18:00.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And what are you going to do about that?
[18:00.680 --> 18:09.280] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we are just handing all of this control over to a very, very small part of society that is very, very powerful.
[18:09.580 --> 18:15.020] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, assuming hope does survive, that's a great panel.
[18:15.020 --> 18:20.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And I can promise you, I'll be on that panel if we have it, if we make it to July.
[18:21.220 --> 18:22.960] [SPEAKER_05]: Look, I think that we will make it.
[18:23.060 --> 18:23.880] [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to make it.
[18:23.960 --> 18:31.640] [SPEAKER_05]: And my point is, I think, you know, you can always change your mail server records back to whatever the hell you want them to be after you send out the mail that goes out to Google.
[18:31.740 --> 18:33.680] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's something simple.
[18:34.060 --> 18:36.260] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think we're going to get through this.
[18:36.320 --> 18:46.940] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think this is also an exhortation to all of the listeners, you know, that this is a great way of getting the word out through the radio, through a podcast, that, you know, we need your support in order to pull this off.
[18:47.860 --> 18:48.300] [SPEAKER_04]: Gila, go ahead.
[18:49.100 --> 19:02.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Just one really quick, actionable suggestion for the people who are hope, participants, hope attendees, people who are on the list, who are also Gmail users.
[19:02.960 --> 19:10.380] [SPEAKER_11]: The best thing you can do is to whitelist all the addresses that you get these emails from.
[19:10.860 --> 19:13.800] [SPEAKER_11]: Whitelist hope@2600.com.
[19:14.520 --> 19:18.080] [SPEAKER_11]: And those emails will not get put, not get sent to spam.
[19:18.920 --> 19:19.400] [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully.
[19:19.920 --> 19:20.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I've heard...
[19:20.920 --> 19:21.300] [SPEAKER_11]: No, seriously.
[19:21.580 --> 19:26.960] [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard of cases where that doesn't work as intended or where it's not done correctly or something like that.
[19:27.040 --> 19:28.260] [SPEAKER_04]: But yes, that's good advice.
[19:28.600 --> 19:31.140] [SPEAKER_04]: Problem is, how do you get that advice to people who haven't done it?
[19:31.560 --> 19:32.200] [SPEAKER_04]: You know?
[19:33.280 --> 19:33.760] [SPEAKER_11]: Absolutely.
[19:34.140 --> 19:35.840] [SPEAKER_11]: So this is an action item.
[19:36.140 --> 19:49.760] [SPEAKER_11]: If you're listening to this, if you're listening to this at some point, in the future, because you're catching the cached edition on the website, on the 2600 website, on the WBAI website, do this yourself.
[19:50.320 --> 19:54.180] [SPEAKER_11]: And then talk to five people you know who have gone to HOPE.
[19:54.740 --> 19:57.120] [SPEAKER_11]: The best way we can get people to talk...
[19:57.120 --> 19:59.840] [SPEAKER_11]: The best way we can get information out is if people talk to each other.
[20:00.460 --> 20:01.940] [SPEAKER_11]: No one is alone at HOPE.
[20:02.200 --> 20:04.060] [SPEAKER_11]: Talk to five people you've met.
[20:04.060 --> 20:05.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Make sure they're signed up.
[20:06.120 --> 20:08.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Make sure they've whitelisted the announcement email addresses.
[20:09.540 --> 20:12.280] [SPEAKER_11]: And then we can start some grassroots movement.
[20:13.220 --> 20:14.200] [SPEAKER_11]: That's my suggestion.
[20:14.360 --> 20:15.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds like HOPE, actually.
[20:15.760 --> 20:17.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds exactly like the conference itself.
[20:17.680 --> 20:19.040] [SPEAKER_04]: But good advice there.
[20:19.280 --> 20:19.720] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Kyle.
[20:19.720 --> 20:40.180] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I just wanted to point out how a lot of these solutions, suggestions, however we describe them, they come back to us having to contort ourselves into fitting some standard that those in power sort of deem acceptable.
[20:40.600 --> 21:05.980] [SPEAKER_08]: And I really want to push against this behavior that we've been lulled into with service providers that they're so all-powerful and benevolent and, I guess, standardized and accepted that it must be something that we're doing wrong or that you have to,
[21:06.240 --> 21:16.220] [SPEAKER_08]: again, comply with something or reassess the way you'd been because of a technical change and that they're to be trusted 100%.
[21:16.220 --> 21:19.640] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, that's never been our stance, but it's so common.
[21:19.780 --> 21:31.100] [SPEAKER_08]: People think, well, because it's this idea, this brand of a corporation in their head that they're not actually wielding power and making it impossible to communicate.
[21:31.380 --> 21:56.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And the last thing I wanted to share is something that we kind of talked about was in preparing here is that it's a lot of change in the social and other sorts of mediums that we might use to get the message out and the timing of it, I think, because a lot of that stuff isn't working in the same way,
[21:56.980 --> 22:14.380] [SPEAKER_08]: we can maybe give ourselves a little bit of a break because word is spreading in unconventional, truly unconventional, without a lot of the programmatic and algorithmic stuff that was really amplifying and getting things to where people might be receptive to them.
[22:14.480 --> 22:31.260] [SPEAKER_08]: If that's all sort of, I don't know, I want to say asymmetric, but like just something we have to do in very odd and extremely grassroots ways, which we're totally up for, whatever that may be, which you've already listed off other ways we're trying things.
[22:31.580 --> 22:46.440] [SPEAKER_08]: But that is cold comfort because we really, we have tried all of those things already and shared widely and used these spam whitelists in our own tests.
[22:46.440 --> 23:12.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And like, we're on top of it and sensitive also to, to overall societal, you know, changes and, and states of mind wherever people's heads are at, but we can't, we can't plan something around that if it's so bad or so variable that we can't even begin this.
[23:12.760 --> 23:26.980] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's, it's, it's, I wanted to say like, let's wait 24 hours, let's kind of relax, but I think this is good that we're, we're actually pointing to the reason we're bringing this up today is because, um, we've done this before and, uh, there is a pattern and this pattern,
[23:27.400 --> 23:36.760] [SPEAKER_04]: uh, a bunch of us found to be disturbing because having this, um, uh, the, the response be this low at this point in time is unusual.
[23:36.760 --> 23:46.280] [SPEAKER_04]: It was, as I said, about, uh, double that two years ago and quadruple that, uh, in the, the, the, uh, previous in-person conference, 2018.
[23:47.000 --> 23:52.720] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's something that we need to, um, uh, figure out why again, you know, it, it, it could be us.
[23:52.820 --> 23:53.900] [SPEAKER_04]: It could be the location.
[23:54.180 --> 23:56.220] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I'd like to address the location.
[23:56.400 --> 24:03.820] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to address the location because we've spent a lot of time, um, researching, um, uh, that particular part of Queens.
[24:03.820 --> 24:18.020] [SPEAKER_04]: We've, we've been there once now, uh, for a conference, uh, we've done all kinds of, um, investigation into transportation and we have found it's a lot easier to get to St. John's than, than we thought it was two years ago.
[24:18.160 --> 24:29.220] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we have very detailed instructions on every possible way you would have, you would, you would be coming from whether it's airports or, or, uh, train stations or driving.
[24:29.220 --> 24:35.280] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we have very specific directions and, um, they're really easy and cheap too.
[24:35.520 --> 24:43.100] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we've, we've talked about the OMNY Card and how, um, uh, how that now has a cap on it that you can't spend more than a certain amount in a week.
[24:43.220 --> 24:47.480] [SPEAKER_04]: That's tremendously advantageous for people who are traveling around various parts of the city.
[24:48.020 --> 24:52.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we've, we've, uh, managed to get free parking on campus for conference attendees.
[24:52.920 --> 25:06.220] [SPEAKER_04]: If they happen to be driving, uh, we have all kinds of food options now that we were not aware of two years ago that we're, um, uh, listing and telling people how they can get to Chinatown, which by the way, is the world's biggest Chinatown outside of China.
[25:06.400 --> 25:07.640] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's pretty amazing.
[25:07.820 --> 25:13.780] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're coming to hope or just coming to Queens, you will see something that, uh, you'll remember for the rest of your lives.
[25:14.340 --> 25:30.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and, um, housing, uh, we just announced today, um, one of the housing deal, actually a couple of different housing deals, but, but one of the ones that I noticed, uh, has to do with one of the dormitories that St. John's is, is, uh, is giving to us where the rooms are so cheap.
[25:31.120 --> 25:37.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I mean, I, we don't give out prices over the air, but they are cheaper than anything you will find anywhere in New York city.
[25:37.700 --> 25:39.620] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're, they're, they're decent places too.
[25:40.300 --> 25:50.180] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's, it's, it's near the conference and it's, um, uh, something that, you know, people from, from out of town, even from, uh, from New York, uh, will be very comfortable in.
[25:50.480 --> 25:53.460] [SPEAKER_04]: So we have all these, all these issues that were addressed.
[25:53.580 --> 25:56.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Most of them were, were things that were brought up by people who wanted improvements.
[25:56.680 --> 26:00.900] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, we have looked into every, every one of those who had their hand up.
[26:00.940 --> 26:01.480] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was Rob.
[26:02.800 --> 26:03.120] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[26:03.220 --> 26:09.760] [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, part of this too, is that, um, when I, when I said this is in a wobbly state, I mean, like we are learning as we go along.
[26:09.880 --> 26:14.080] [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, that's how hope started is, uh, you know, it was, it was one kind of experience.
[26:14.140 --> 26:24.040] [SPEAKER_13]: And then like the last hope I went to at the hotel Pennsylvania was not a lot, you know, was, was in many ways a lot different, uh, from the first one I went to the hotel Pennsylvania.
[26:24.820 --> 26:36.020] [SPEAKER_13]: And this is another stage in that, um, we are learning what the shape of a conference is in the here and now, um, versus what it was like traditionally, what it was like in the past, what it was like even two years ago.
[26:36.540 --> 26:45.360] [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, so I think, I think we and the community, um, have every ability to adapt and see what hope is now.
[26:46.700 --> 26:51.040] [SPEAKER_08]: And it certainly will change, um, no matter what.
[26:51.480 --> 27:00.720] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think our, our, our, our reminder here is that it's, it's up to, it will become what people make of it.
[27:00.860 --> 27:03.380] [SPEAKER_08]: If they're, if they don't want hope, then they won't have hope.
[27:03.540 --> 27:13.680] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean, that's, that's what I was trying to say before is that, you know, um, um, we, we can't be afraid to confront the, uh, the possibility that it's not you, it's us.
[27:13.960 --> 27:15.960] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, no, it's entirely possible.
[27:16.160 --> 27:17.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Look, we've said this before.
[27:17.700 --> 27:24.700] [SPEAKER_04]: If people don't support the radio station or the radio show, then it changes to something else.
[27:24.700 --> 27:26.420] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the way it has to be.
[27:26.520 --> 27:32.620] [SPEAKER_04]: And by the way, you can support the radio station by calling 212-209-2950 or going to give2wbai.org.
[27:32.620 --> 27:33.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Please be generous.
[27:34.460 --> 27:38.240] [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't support the magazine, then the magazine will go away.
[27:38.420 --> 27:46.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, there's certainly been a lot of invitations for the magazine to go away in recent years from various, uh, big companies that have made things extremely difficult.
[27:46.540 --> 27:48.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and the same thing of course goes for the conference.
[27:49.160 --> 28:00.240] [SPEAKER_04]: If the conference, uh, becomes something that is, uh, untenable, um, or, or just, uh, not desired by very many people, then that will go away as well to be replaced by something else.
[28:00.240 --> 28:03.540] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure we have to view these things.
[28:03.720 --> 28:07.980] [SPEAKER_04]: So if, if that is the message that we are being sent, then we will hear that message.
[28:08.080 --> 28:12.080] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not going to pretend, um, that something is there that is not there.
[28:12.680 --> 28:22.900] [SPEAKER_04]: However, if that is not the intent, well, then we need to make a bit of a stink about it and figure out where the problem is and fix the problem because we're hackers and that's what we do.
[28:26.600 --> 28:28.500] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess no one has anything to say to that.
[28:31.380 --> 28:33.140] [SPEAKER_13]: I, I just, I, I can't follow that.
[28:33.260 --> 28:33.400] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[28:33.500 --> 28:33.980] [SPEAKER_11]: You said it all.
[28:35.620 --> 28:39.500] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we still have another 30 minutes, so, uh, gonna have to say something more.
[28:39.700 --> 28:56.600] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I want to read something that, um, our, our good friend and hope co-coordinated Genevieve said, uh, concerning hope, uh, despite our longevity, despite the challenges, despite the trials and, uh, travails of the last 30 years, despite the practical issues of dollars and nonsense,
[28:57.140 --> 29:11.400] [SPEAKER_04]: hope has managed to maintain its integrity as an event that looks at the greater world through that hackerish lens and recognizes explicitly in the title of the event that it's not just about folks that like making tech do that, which it ain't supposed to.
[29:11.980 --> 29:14.300] [SPEAKER_04]: And I can't think of a better way to say it.
[29:14.920 --> 29:20.760] [SPEAKER_08]: That's, that's the, the kind of words I think we're all conjuring up here.
[29:21.100 --> 29:25.160] [SPEAKER_08]: And it is really, I think it's unconventional.
[29:25.360 --> 29:32.880] [SPEAKER_08]: It's unusual for people to snap out of the way they coordinate or the way they get involved in other activities.
[29:33.440 --> 29:34.620] [SPEAKER_08]: We are different.
[29:34.840 --> 29:38.040] [SPEAKER_08]: We've, we've resisted certain elements.
[29:38.180 --> 29:39.040] [SPEAKER_08]: We're not a trade show.
[29:39.300 --> 29:40.340] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, we're not.
[29:40.440 --> 29:42.800] [SPEAKER_04]: And also, you know what, we're not professionals.
[29:43.160 --> 29:47.080] [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody gets paid for hope, by the way, in case anybody thinks anyone is getting paid for that.
[29:47.500 --> 30:00.440] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the only, the only people get paid for, for hope are people that provide services, work for companies, you know, AV companies or lighting companies or, you know, the, the people you have to hire to make an event like that happen.
[30:00.600 --> 30:03.500] [SPEAKER_04]: But the other thing we're not, we're not good at PR.
[30:04.200 --> 30:07.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Now we've been told many times, yeah, I should hire a PR firm.
[30:07.720 --> 30:08.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's great.
[30:08.380 --> 30:15.880] [SPEAKER_04]: If you have unlimited funds and you can, you can hire people like that to get But then you have to wonder, who is it getting the word out to?
[30:16.240 --> 30:22.000] [SPEAKER_04]: Are they the kind of people that would understand the conference, that would make the conference a better place?
[30:22.200 --> 30:29.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Or are we just talking about some kind of corporate executive that will take offense at most of the things we talk about in the first place?
[30:30.080 --> 30:31.240] [SPEAKER_04]: We are not good at that.
[30:31.380 --> 30:34.260] [SPEAKER_04]: We are not good at the PR aspect of it.
[30:34.260 --> 30:43.020] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that kind of shows sometimes in the way we seem to be scrambling, just to get the word out, just to have people realize what we're up to.
[30:43.200 --> 30:56.200] [SPEAKER_04]: And many of the time, we've seen all kinds of newspaper magazine articles about various conferences, and they leave us out, or when they do talk about us, they get the name wrong, or they just don't mention the name at all.
[30:56.760 --> 31:01.960] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's almost funny, and it doesn't really matter to us that much, because that's not really what we're after.
[31:03.460 --> 31:09.780] [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, the business side of me says it probably would be good if we did have that kind of exposure.
[31:10.080 --> 31:13.120] [SPEAKER_08]: E, it's a certified cliche at this point.
[31:13.440 --> 31:19.260] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we do not get press, or it's badly written, if at all.
[31:19.260 --> 31:32.560] [SPEAKER_08]: And that itself is because a lot of the writing, a lot of the PR messaging that is done, is done for corporate communications, for products and services.
[31:32.900 --> 31:35.540] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's just not the spirit of this event.
[31:35.620 --> 31:38.360] [SPEAKER_08]: We want to advance people's understanding.
[31:38.360 --> 31:42.300] [SPEAKER_08]: We want to create a place for discourse.
[31:42.300 --> 31:48.600] [SPEAKER_08]: And the help we're asking for is participation mainly.
[31:48.920 --> 31:55.900] [SPEAKER_08]: We love ideas, and we really do review and discuss amongst ourselves all of the ideas there are.
[31:55.900 --> 32:11.780] [SPEAKER_08]: But I find when we appeal to people, sometimes there's a tendency, a temptation to suggest, maybe, that we've missed something about the way we do things.
[32:11.820 --> 32:20.120] [SPEAKER_08]: And then we spend our time starting over again with someone who doesn't quite understand the way we do things.
[32:20.280 --> 32:22.040] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't want to spend time doing that.
[32:22.040 --> 32:27.880] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't want suggestions about how we're doing it wrong, and someone else could do it better, or different.
[32:28.060 --> 32:29.220] [SPEAKER_04]: Unless we're doing it wrong.
[32:29.380 --> 32:30.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's what I'm saying.
[32:30.720 --> 32:33.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Unless we really, you know, that can be proven to us.
[32:33.220 --> 32:33.560] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a temptation.
[32:33.920 --> 32:39.300] [SPEAKER_08]: We will go for ideas, but we need and want participation.
[32:40.220 --> 32:46.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Like, the actual involvement and creation of hope.
[32:46.640 --> 33:06.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think our circle has a temptation for that, but there's also, again, the real, totally, like, against the grain nature of the kind of events that this is and the way that we do it.
[33:06.200 --> 33:17.400] [SPEAKER_08]: So, I don't know, it is going to be whatever we decide to make it here and now, all of us, in the next couple months.
[33:17.640 --> 33:22.580] [SPEAKER_08]: And if it isn't the time for it, then we'll all do something else.
[33:22.820 --> 33:24.880] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the way of the world.
[33:24.880 --> 33:25.740] [SPEAKER_04]: We can do something.
[33:25.880 --> 33:26.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Imagine that.
[33:26.580 --> 33:28.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Imagine, in a world, we didn't have to organize hope.
[33:29.020 --> 33:31.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Boy, you know, we could read poetry.
[33:31.440 --> 33:32.160] [SPEAKER_04]: We could travel.
[33:32.340 --> 33:34.440] [SPEAKER_04]: We could probably build houses.
[33:34.640 --> 33:36.500] [SPEAKER_04]: All sorts of things we could do with that time.
[33:36.500 --> 33:37.100] [SPEAKER_04]: My God.
[33:37.540 --> 33:41.960] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, the whole last month, I've been dealing with hope stuff.
[33:42.260 --> 33:44.600] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, 2600 ends, a new issue is out.
[33:44.760 --> 33:46.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, now it's time for hope stuff.
[33:46.440 --> 33:48.280] [SPEAKER_04]: I could have done so much more with my time.
[33:48.380 --> 33:53.020] [SPEAKER_04]: I could have gone, visited people, and I had an opportunity to go up into space.
[33:53.020 --> 33:54.020] [SPEAKER_04]: I turned that down.
[33:55.480 --> 33:56.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well.
[33:56.980 --> 34:01.780] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to think about the things I could have been, but the things I will be.
[34:02.220 --> 34:20.160] [SPEAKER_08]: It's very easy to walk away, to make up stories about how this event or that event, or you don't think that you can contribute, or that it's changed, or that you are right about it in some way, or we got it wrong in some way.
[34:20.160 --> 34:28.260] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's never said, it's just total sort of disintegration.
[34:28.420 --> 34:45.720] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that may work at trade shows, but it does not engender the kind of camaraderie and the kind of care and advancement that we're aiming for with this event.
[34:45.720 --> 34:53.620] [SPEAKER_04]: If we charged trade show prices, then we could make do with a relatively small number of people, but we don't.
[34:53.620 --> 34:55.700] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we try to make it accessible to everybody.
[34:55.820 --> 34:59.740] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, you know, many as a time we've done simulcast on WBAI.
[35:00.620 --> 35:06.380] [SPEAKER_04]: We've done all kinds of giveaways and things like that, because we want people to be able to share in this.
[35:06.800 --> 35:16.480] [SPEAKER_04]: Many, many as a time that we've played excerpts from previous conferences, even offered them as premiums to WBAI listeners, because there is so much in there.
[35:17.120 --> 35:19.280] [SPEAKER_04]: It's sure, it's a technological world.
[35:19.420 --> 35:25.360] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a world of hackers, but it's a world that is meant for everybody, not just those with skills of technology.
[35:25.360 --> 35:30.120] [SPEAKER_04]: So many people say, I don't understand anything that these people are doing, but they really do.
[35:30.300 --> 35:30.980] [SPEAKER_04]: They get it.
[35:31.060 --> 35:43.980] [SPEAKER_04]: If you talk to them, if you take the time to talk to them and explain what hacker values are and how their privacy is being abused by some company someplace and how they can fight back.
[35:44.160 --> 35:53.120] [SPEAKER_04]: These are things that you do not need technical knowledge for and that you can appreciate if it's only explained to you, if you only are part of that conversation.
[35:53.120 --> 35:54.160] [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, do you have something to say?
[35:54.300 --> 35:55.680] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, I think I saw your hand up before.
[35:55.800 --> 35:55.960] [SPEAKER_04]: No?
[35:58.960 --> 36:08.600] [SPEAKER_05]: Look, I've always got something to say, but again, I think we go back to this, and I think we've got a great community here of people who support HOPE, who've been to HOPE.
[36:09.280 --> 36:15.900] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, my life has been changed irrevocably, for the good, I think, at many a HOPE conference.
[36:16.400 --> 36:22.600] [SPEAKER_05]: I went to the first one in 1994 when I was 15 years old, and that totally changed my life.
[36:22.940 --> 36:26.740] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that we're going to continue to change the lives of many, many young people.
[36:27.600 --> 36:29.420] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we just need to get the word out.
[36:29.540 --> 36:33.840] [SPEAKER_05]: We need to get the community's heads together about how we do this.
[36:33.940 --> 36:44.480] [SPEAKER_05]: But I also think it's important that, and you did this, Emmanuel, and you promised it, and you held true to it, is that we be honest with the community, too, that we need your help.
[36:44.600 --> 36:46.080] [SPEAKER_05]: We need you to support the conference.
[36:46.260 --> 36:47.400] [SPEAKER_05]: We need you to buy those tickets.
[36:47.980 --> 36:49.380] [SPEAKER_05]: It's hard to get the word out.
[36:49.700 --> 36:53.760] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, ordinarily, these tickets in the past would go like hotcakes, right?
[36:53.900 --> 36:55.880] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they would be gone in seconds, right?
[36:56.240 --> 37:02.640] [SPEAKER_04]: Hotcakes aren't as popular as people think they are, but they went fast, yes, and quite a lot of them went.
[37:03.480 --> 37:05.960] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so I think this is an aberration.
[37:05.960 --> 37:21.160] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's an aberration that's born out of a technical mishap and the fact that the primary means of communication that people relied upon to deal with 2600, with you, and with hope, has really become a gigantic dumpster fire.
[37:22.060 --> 37:25.820] [SPEAKER_04]: But also, you know, there are also social changes.
[37:25.820 --> 37:28.500] [SPEAKER_04]: We are, you know, a divisive society now.
[37:28.720 --> 37:30.540] [SPEAKER_04]: People might not feel comfortable in crowds.
[37:30.540 --> 37:38.140] [SPEAKER_04]: There are all sorts of reasons why we may have changed as people, and that's something else to explore as well.
[37:38.380 --> 37:41.820] [SPEAKER_04]: And hope is a great place to explore that, and I really hope we get the opportunity.
[37:43.580 --> 38:08.220] [SPEAKER_08]: One thing even along the lines that you just suggested is that originally, I think, a lot of things like the meetings and the conferences were things where hackers and people that were online that may have not had a lot of people in physical space around them that were the shared interests,
[38:08.340 --> 38:09.860] [SPEAKER_08]: that were working on the same projects.
[38:10.380 --> 38:26.880] [SPEAKER_08]: And these spaces where people got together were like minds coming together, having a good time and talking about things and learning about new stuff and the state of the art and then maybe even making some new friends in the process.
[38:27.760 --> 38:29.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that done?
[38:30.060 --> 38:31.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Have we done enough of that?
[38:31.720 --> 38:41.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And I wonder, like that was in the back of my mind contemplating this before the show, is are we socialized enough?
[38:41.100 --> 39:20.580] [SPEAKER_08]: And in light of pandemics and pathological individuals, whatever is afflicting people, is that also leading to sort of an inverse where there's an aversion to being around hackers or anybody in your sphere of interest because of recent factors or that virtual and other technologies communications that are very rich are making that less desirable because you can filter all the other sort of aspects
[39:20.580 --> 39:22.240] [SPEAKER_08]: of physical interaction.
[39:22.600 --> 39:28.860] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't want to be so deep into overthinking this, but we definitely want to fix it.
[39:29.380 --> 39:29.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[39:29.700 --> 39:38.540] [SPEAKER_04]: And we would like to be organizing a conference now where the sky is the limit and all sorts of things are possible, all sorts of speakers are possible.
[39:38.840 --> 39:51.800] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we've had Steve Wozniak, we've had Edward Snowden, we've had Chelsea Manning, we've had all kinds of people over the years at our conference in one form or another and basically educating people, you know.
[39:54.220 --> 39:58.980] [SPEAKER_04]: It's really something that we never take for granted.
[39:59.040 --> 40:05.800] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think, you know, something like today shows why we shouldn't take it for granted because, you know, things can change.
[40:06.240 --> 40:10.740] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's important to ask yourself, do you need to change as well?
[40:12.020 --> 40:12.700] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[40:12.980 --> 40:28.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And there's a lot I remember in planning some of this stuff, like reaching out to people, coordinating different projects, growing different aspects of the event, getting technical things working.
[40:28.760 --> 40:36.520] [SPEAKER_08]: I know tons of other people did that before me and more so when I was involved.
[40:36.680 --> 40:38.640] [SPEAKER_08]: I displayed a very small part.
[40:38.760 --> 40:44.500] [SPEAKER_08]: And every little part along the way is someone's contribution.
[40:44.840 --> 40:55.760] [SPEAKER_08]: And it is amazing, the problem solving and the things we've worked around, as you said, as non-professionals.
[40:55.980 --> 41:02.560] [SPEAKER_08]: And most of that is people rising to the challenge and wanting to make it all better.
[41:02.900 --> 41:07.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And we're really hoping that that spirit is still out there somewhere.
[41:08.080 --> 41:08.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, definitely.
[41:09.800 --> 41:11.980] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, in that spirit of...
[41:11.980 --> 41:26.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, first of all, I wanted to tell Alex to check out on the hope.net webpage, the About section, because you were talking about the first conference in 1994, and we have a summary of every conference starting in 1994 and what each one was known for.
[41:26.680 --> 41:32.940] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was just a lot of fun to put together and to go through and have some memories of previous conferences.
[41:33.100 --> 41:36.800] [SPEAKER_04]: Because, you know, we've done this 14 times in the past, and each one is different.
[41:36.920 --> 41:39.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Each one has a completely different name, a different theme.
[41:39.240 --> 41:42.480] [SPEAKER_04]: And we just never seem to run out of ideas.
[41:44.000 --> 41:51.900] [SPEAKER_04]: But as far as being able to be open to critique and ideas and things like that, I wanted to reach out.
[41:52.060 --> 41:52.920] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to actually...
[41:52.920 --> 41:53.860] [SPEAKER_04]: I just did this now.
[41:54.800 --> 41:56.400] [SPEAKER_04]: We've been criticizing Google a lot.
[41:56.500 --> 41:58.960] [SPEAKER_04]: So I reached out to Google Bard.
[41:59.200 --> 42:00.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, Bard the Hacker.
[42:00.100 --> 42:00.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Our friend Bard.
[42:01.380 --> 42:04.060] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the artificial intelligence being.
[42:04.060 --> 42:13.680] [SPEAKER_04]: I just asked if they could tell me if the HOPE conference is a conference that I should consider going to.
[42:13.800 --> 42:14.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's listen.
[42:19.000 --> 42:23.640] [SPEAKER_12]: Deciding whether HOPE is the right hacker conference for you depends on your priorities and interests.
[42:24.240 --> 42:27.380] [SPEAKER_12]: Here's a breakdown of some pros and cons to help you compare.
[42:27.980 --> 42:29.400] [SPEAKER_12]: Reasons to attend HOPE.
[42:29.540 --> 42:30.440] [SPEAKER_12]: Unique focus.
[42:30.720 --> 42:36.340] [SPEAKER_12]: HOPE emphasizes hacker ethics, activism, and social responsibility more than many other conferences.
[42:37.280 --> 42:42.980] [SPEAKER_12]: It's not just about technical skills, but also about using those skills to make a positive impact on the world.
[42:43.500 --> 42:44.980] [SPEAKER_12]: Broader range of topics.
[42:45.280 --> 42:55.820] [SPEAKER_12]: While cybersecurity is a cornerstone, HOPE delves into diverse areas like hardware hacking, cryptography, digital rights, privacy, and even art and music created by hackers.
[42:56.400 --> 43:00.280] [SPEAKER_12]: You'll encounter thought-provoking ideas beyond the typical conference fair.
[43:00.720 --> 43:01.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Inclusive and welcoming.
[43:02.160 --> 43:12.760] [SPEAKER_12]: HOPE prides itself on a friendly and supportive atmosphere, fostering connections between beginners and seasoned professionals, activists and academics, security experts, and ethical hackers.
[43:13.480 --> 43:16.740] [SPEAKER_12]: It's a great place to learn from and network with a diverse community.
[43:17.340 --> 43:18.400] [SPEAKER_12]: Hands-on learning.
[43:18.800 --> 43:29.720] [SPEAKER_12]: Aside from talks and workshops, HOPE offers interactive activities, contests, and hacking challenges, letting you put theory into practice and test your skills in a fun and collaborative environment.
[43:30.450 --> 43:31.740] [SPEAKER_12]: Affordable and accessible.
[43:32.060 --> 43:41.320] [SPEAKER_12]: Compared to some high-priced conferences, HOPE aims to be financially accessible, offering scholarships and discounts to ensure participation from a wider range of individuals.
[43:41.320 --> 43:43.100] [SPEAKER_12]: Things to consider.
[43:43.420 --> 43:43.940] [SPEAKER_12]: Frequency.
[43:44.320 --> 43:49.020] [SPEAKER_12]: HOPE is held biannually, every two years, whereas some other conferences occur annually.
[43:49.560 --> 43:54.540] [SPEAKER_12]: If you need more frequent technical training or updates, another conference might be a better fit.
[43:55.120 --> 43:56.180] [SPEAKER_12]: Technical emphasis.
[43:56.720 --> 44:00.820] [SPEAKER_12]: While HOPE covers technical topics, its focus is broader than strictly cybersecurity.
[44:01.540 --> 44:07.600] [SPEAKER_12]: If you're looking for deep dives into specific technical areas, another conference might have more targeted sessions.
[44:08.480 --> 44:09.060] [SPEAKER_12]: Location.
[44:09.240 --> 44:11.480] [SPEAKER_12]: HOPE typically takes place in New York City.
[44:11.700 --> 44:17.100] [SPEAKER_12]: If travel or time zone differences are concerns, a closer or virtual conference might be preferable.
[44:17.780 --> 44:19.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Ultimately, the decision is yours.
[44:20.340 --> 44:30.220] [SPEAKER_12]: If you're looking for a hacker conference that goes beyond the technical, values ethics and activism, and prioritizes inclusion and accessibility, then HOPE is definitely worth considering.
[44:30.980 --> 44:38.820] [SPEAKER_12]: Feel free to ask if you have any specific questions about HOPE or another conference you're considering, and I'll try my best to help you make an informed decision.
[44:39.520 --> 44:40.660] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that's enough, Bart.
[44:41.260 --> 44:42.440] [SPEAKER_04]: You've served a good purpose here.
[44:42.660 --> 44:45.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm surprised Bart got most of that right.
[44:45.660 --> 44:47.560] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, maybe Bart got all of that right.
[44:47.700 --> 44:51.140] [SPEAKER_04]: There are pros and cons, reasons not to attend as well.
[44:51.600 --> 44:56.960] [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't like to travel and you don't live in New York City, then yeah, traveling might be a disadvantage.
[44:56.960 --> 44:57.780] [SPEAKER_04]: That makes sense.
[44:58.740 --> 45:02.560] [SPEAKER_04]: But for the most part, you know, I think that those are givens.
[45:02.620 --> 45:08.000] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that is what HOPE is known for, and that's what hopefully we can continue doing into the future.
[45:08.360 --> 45:11.480] [SPEAKER_04]: But again, you know, we need attendees to do that.
[45:11.620 --> 45:17.420] [SPEAKER_04]: And today was a bit disappointing as far as the number that actually started to register.
[45:17.560 --> 45:19.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it's just a timing issue.
[45:19.420 --> 45:19.960] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see.
[45:20.480 --> 45:22.260] [SPEAKER_04]: More information at HOPE.net.
[45:23.260 --> 45:27.840] [SPEAKER_04]: And we can talk about it more on Overtime coming up at 8 o'clock on YouTube.
[45:30.340 --> 45:31.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, how are you?
[45:31.280 --> 45:32.480] [SPEAKER_04]: You broke your foot last week.
[45:35.820 --> 45:37.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you lose your voice too?
[45:39.660 --> 45:40.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, Alex.
[45:40.660 --> 45:41.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wait a minute.
[45:41.440 --> 45:41.680] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[45:41.740 --> 45:42.420] [SPEAKER_04]: This is my fault.
[45:42.560 --> 45:43.420] [SPEAKER_04]: I turned you off.
[45:44.060 --> 45:45.640] [SPEAKER_04]: While Bart was playing, I turned you off.
[45:46.400 --> 45:47.160] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that makes sense.
[45:47.160 --> 45:47.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sorry.
[45:47.820 --> 45:48.820] [SPEAKER_04]: My fault this time.
[45:49.580 --> 45:50.300] [SPEAKER_05]: That's all right.
[45:50.440 --> 45:53.040] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm healing all right over here.
[45:53.200 --> 45:54.020] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, thanks for asking.
[45:54.920 --> 46:01.220] [SPEAKER_05]: I met with my surgeon this morning, and I guess it was a couple of weeks ago.
[46:01.420 --> 46:05.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, I think the last time we were on was the night before I had my second surgery.
[46:05.660 --> 46:10.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Was this the surgeon that you were going to bring to the HOPE conference because he was talking about ransomware?
[46:10.840 --> 46:11.900] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's in Florida.
[46:11.900 --> 46:17.180] [SPEAKER_05]: The hospital at which I was first admitted was a ransomware victim last year.
[46:17.180 --> 46:19.520] [SPEAKER_05]: And we were talking quite a bit about that.
[46:20.240 --> 46:25.920] [SPEAKER_05]: And then, so the next day, after the last off the hook, that was when I had my second surgery.
[46:26.600 --> 46:28.040] [SPEAKER_05]: It went very well.
[46:28.240 --> 46:30.200] [SPEAKER_05]: I had a checkup with my surgeon today.
[46:30.200 --> 46:36.320] [SPEAKER_05]: But I will tell you, that was intensely, intensely painful, what they had to do to me.
[46:36.420 --> 46:39.540] [SPEAKER_05]: I have about 10 screws in my leg, a couple of plates.
[46:39.540 --> 46:48.860] [SPEAKER_05]: And they took the cast off today, but I'm now on this air cast thing, and I can't walk for probably another six to eight weeks.
[46:49.180 --> 46:50.160] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'll get there.
[46:50.580 --> 46:51.500] [SPEAKER_05]: Every day is getting easier.
[46:51.600 --> 46:52.400] [SPEAKER_05]: Every day is getting better.
[46:52.540 --> 46:54.260] [SPEAKER_05]: The body is a pretty amazing thing.
[46:54.260 --> 47:00.000] [SPEAKER_05]: And the way it's actually healing around these screws and metal plates that are going to become part of me now.
[47:00.000 --> 47:09.180] [SPEAKER_05]: So I will be part cyborg, and I plan on walking around, hopefully without a cane, at a HOPE conference and all throughout Queens this summer.
[47:09.740 --> 47:10.440] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[47:10.660 --> 47:13.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that does sound like something to look forward to.
[47:14.160 --> 47:17.340] [SPEAKER_04]: And I certainly hope that you get to do that.
[47:17.440 --> 47:18.380] [SPEAKER_04]: We all get to do that.
[47:19.420 --> 47:30.220] [SPEAKER_04]: Speaking of ransomware, as if, you know, it's not enough to get hit with ransomware, they say now ransomware victims are being targeted by scammers, because they haven't already been targeted.
[47:30.420 --> 47:35.200] [SPEAKER_04]: They're being targeted by scammers looking to trick them out of even more of their hard-earned money.
[47:35.660 --> 47:52.700] [SPEAKER_04]: A report from Arctic Wolf observed at least two such incidents where a person claiming to be an ethical hacker, always be suspicious of that term, by the way, reached out to ransomware victims and offered to break into the ransomware operator's infrastructure and permanently delete the stolen databases.
[47:53.360 --> 48:00.300] [SPEAKER_04]: In one such instance, they call them hacker in this story, but let's not call them that.
[48:00.880 --> 48:07.000] [SPEAKER_04]: The scammer asked for roughly $190,000 in cryptocurrency, which is up to five Bitcoin.
[48:07.480 --> 48:13.940] [SPEAKER_04]: And even though the victims were approached by people with different aliases, the researchers believe it's actually the same individual in both attempts.
[48:14.240 --> 48:24.100] [SPEAKER_04]: In one case, the company fell prey to royal ransomware, really, that's a name, while in the other, it was known as Akira.
[48:24.240 --> 48:37.540] [SPEAKER_04]: In the first instance, the fraudster presented themselves as ethical side group and offered to return the data from the Tommy Leakes gang instead of the actual hackers, which was royal ransomware.
[48:37.540 --> 48:45.900] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, this is getting all too crazy and convoluted here, but there's a lot of scamming going on.
[48:46.020 --> 48:47.780] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's the theme here.
[48:48.020 --> 48:48.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, go ahead.
[48:49.260 --> 48:58.120] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and this is really a variation on a theme that these groups have been picking up from, I believe, pig butchering scams, right?
[48:58.120 --> 49:09.380] [SPEAKER_05]: And pig butchering, of course, you know, we've talked about this in the past, is kind of a combination of romance scams and investment scams whereby somebody befriends you.
[49:09.520 --> 49:16.940] [SPEAKER_05]: You might get that text message that goes into your phone that just says, hi, or, hey, I have to cancel our yoga session or something, and it's a wrong number.
[49:17.100 --> 49:18.740] [SPEAKER_05]: Then you strike a conversation with them.
[49:18.740 --> 49:20.720] [SPEAKER_05]: They befriend you two months later.
[49:21.020 --> 49:26.680] [SPEAKER_05]: They tell you they have this lavish lifestyle because of some kind of great cryptocurrency trading advisor.
[49:27.040 --> 49:35.320] [SPEAKER_05]: Next thing you know, you're investing money into this, and it's called pig butchering because they take your money, they fatten you up, they fatten you up, and then all of a sudden, they're gone.
[49:35.520 --> 49:36.520] [SPEAKER_05]: The money is gone.
[49:36.700 --> 49:52.980] [SPEAKER_05]: But when that has happened, historically, a lot of these victims have then been re-victimized by the impersonation of blockchain investigation companies, impersonation of companies like Cypherblade or Chainalysis coming out and saying, hey, we know that you were scammed.
[49:53.120 --> 49:55.420] [SPEAKER_05]: We saw that you sent money to this particular address.
[49:55.680 --> 50:03.540] [SPEAKER_05]: We actually... and they make up some totally... technically, it makes no sense at all, but they'll say something stupid like, we have a smart contract in place.
[50:03.680 --> 50:08.620] [SPEAKER_05]: We just need to pay the gas fees, and we can actually break into that wallet and return your currency.
[50:08.840 --> 50:10.360] [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to be sending it through this route.
[50:10.500 --> 50:11.740] [SPEAKER_05]: Give us your destination wallet.
[50:11.740 --> 50:16.100] [SPEAKER_05]: But the gas fees are $20,000, unfortunately, because this takes a lot of power.
[50:16.200 --> 50:16.720] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, yeah.
[50:16.840 --> 50:17.640] [SPEAKER_04]: That makes sense.
[50:18.360 --> 50:31.960] [SPEAKER_05]: But if you've lost $800,000 or if you've lost a million, and this person knows all these details about how the scam was worked out, and you've looked up the company, and it looks legit, you don't realize that it's some kind of permutation on their domain name or it's a different top-level domain,
[50:32.140 --> 50:36.100] [SPEAKER_05]: like it's .link or .store or something like that, instead of .com or .net.
[50:36.100 --> 50:40.480] [SPEAKER_05]: But you might spend that extra $20,000, and they bleed you out.
[50:40.660 --> 50:45.060] [SPEAKER_05]: And so this is what the ransomware gangs are, I think, taking a page from.
[50:45.640 --> 50:45.880] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[50:46.640 --> 50:51.060] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it makes it seem all so dark and dismal.
[50:51.420 --> 50:54.140] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not what the hacker world is about, for sure.
[50:54.360 --> 50:54.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Rob.
[50:55.000 --> 50:55.740] [SPEAKER_04]: Final word on this.
[50:56.520 --> 50:56.960] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[50:57.280 --> 51:00.420] [SPEAKER_13]: Scammers have always targeted the most vulnerable people they could find.
[51:00.580 --> 51:05.200] [SPEAKER_13]: And, of course, a lot of the most vulnerable people are people who have just been scammed.
[51:06.100 --> 51:12.200] [SPEAKER_13]: It's a terrible fact, and it's just the way things have been and the way things they'll continue to be.
[51:12.380 --> 51:15.180] [SPEAKER_13]: So, yeah, if you've been scammed, be extra vigilant.
[51:16.380 --> 51:17.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, always good advice.
[51:18.380 --> 51:20.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, we're out of time, unfortunately.
[51:20.480 --> 51:21.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Boy, that went fast.
[51:21.200 --> 51:23.180] [SPEAKER_04]: But we're going to continue talking over on YouTube.
[51:23.340 --> 51:31.060] [SPEAKER_04]: You can get the link on the 2600.com webpage or just go to Channel2600 over on YouTube for overtime.
[51:31.720 --> 51:35.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Write to us, oth@2600.com.
[51:35.380 --> 51:38.540] [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll be back next week, hopefully in a better mood.
[51:38.540 --> 51:39.140] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see.
[51:39.320 --> 51:45.480] [SPEAKER_04]: If you want more info on the HOPE Conference, go to HOPE.net and read all about the borough of Queens, for one thing.
[51:45.580 --> 51:50.620] [SPEAKER_04]: That's one of the points of research that we've been devoting ourselves to over the past couple of weeks.
[51:51.640 --> 51:56.440] [SPEAKER_04]: And we will have all kinds of other details for you in the weeks ahead.
[51:56.840 --> 51:58.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Stay tuned to WBAI New York.
[51:58.600 --> 51:59.400] [SPEAKER_04]: See you next week.
[56:15.580 --> 56:19.760] [SPEAKER_04]: And welcome, everybody, on YouTube to Off The Hook Overtime.
[56:20.040 --> 56:22.960] [SPEAKER_04]: Here we are in YouTube-land.
[56:23.140 --> 56:23.640] [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel.
[56:23.840 --> 56:24.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Kyle, did you make it?
[56:24.600 --> 56:25.140] [SPEAKER_08]: I made it.
[56:25.360 --> 56:26.480] [SPEAKER_04]: And Rob, Gila?
[56:27.260 --> 56:27.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[56:28.460 --> 56:28.840] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[56:29.180 --> 56:32.520] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're actually broadcasting on YouTube, which is nice.
[56:35.960 --> 56:37.060] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that correct, Rob?
[56:37.380 --> 56:37.880] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[56:37.880 --> 56:39.720] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, nodding your head doesn't work on the radio.
[56:40.300 --> 56:45.860] [SPEAKER_04]: And I believe Alex had to leave us for some family issues, which we completely understand.
[56:47.500 --> 56:54.600] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to try and make this a quick one because it's been so stressful the last few days, few weeks, actually.
[56:54.880 --> 57:00.080] [SPEAKER_04]: And today was not a picnic and we kind of have to get to work and try and fix things.
[57:00.080 --> 57:14.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we have done a lot for all of you out there and really want to make an opportunity to hear from you.
[57:14.960 --> 57:25.940] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think hearing that feedback would be really cathartic because we shouldn't just be doing if we're not doing the right things in that regard.
[57:25.940 --> 57:27.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[57:28.120 --> 57:32.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's go out the phone number 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[57:33.160 --> 57:40.740] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't mean for the HOPE issue to take up just about all the show, but boy, there's a lot to say and a lot to share.
[57:41.880 --> 57:45.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, we all have something to say.
[57:46.180 --> 58:01.980] [SPEAKER_04]: So, and we also want to hear what our listeners, attendees, whatnot, readers have to say as well because there's a whole big community out there and we're always working to keep that community as together as possible.
[58:03.220 --> 58:04.120] [SPEAKER_04]: It's Rebel, isn't it?
[58:04.320 --> 58:04.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course it's Rebel.
[58:04.940 --> 58:05.540] [SPEAKER_04]: We know it's Rebel.
[58:05.660 --> 58:08.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's just pick up the damn phone and we'll get it over with.
[58:08.720 --> 58:09.720] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Rebel, what's up?
[58:11.040 --> 58:12.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm calling from California.
[58:13.420 --> 58:14.520] [SPEAKER_04]: As promised, yes.
[58:14.520 --> 58:15.560] [SPEAKER_04]: You're in California now.
[58:15.640 --> 58:16.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you rent a car?
[58:17.260 --> 58:19.060] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I rented a Chevy Volt.
[58:19.060 --> 58:20.280] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm using my Bluetooth.
[58:20.540 --> 58:23.780] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm calling from my regular cell phone using the Bluetooth.
[58:24.300 --> 58:32.280] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, this has a charging pad, which you put your phone, you place your smartphone on the pad and it's supposed to charge it.
[58:33.560 --> 58:34.000] [SPEAKER_03]: So...
[58:34.000 --> 58:35.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, many of us have seen that.
[58:37.200 --> 58:37.640] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[58:38.360 --> 58:41.700] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, what I'm going to do is go on the freeway.
[58:41.860 --> 58:43.000] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, why is it not charging?
[58:43.160 --> 58:44.840] [SPEAKER_03]: See, this one, I rented a car.
[58:44.860 --> 58:48.800] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was in Arizona last week, I rented a car and it was good.
[58:48.800 --> 58:56.320] [SPEAKER_03]: And the charging pad was like right on the console, but in the middle, but a little bit more efficient and better than this one here in this car.
[58:56.460 --> 58:59.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Can I ask why didn't you just take that rental car to California?
[59:00.500 --> 59:01.200] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.
[59:01.380 --> 59:04.820] [SPEAKER_03]: I, well, I flew from New York City to Arizona.
[59:05.080 --> 59:06.520] [SPEAKER_03]: I flew from Arizona to California.
[59:06.780 --> 59:07.720] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the part I'm questioning.
[59:07.880 --> 59:13.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Why didn't you just take the rental car from Arizona and drive that to California instead of renting a second car?
[59:15.180 --> 59:16.180] [SPEAKER_03]: I've done that before.
[59:16.260 --> 59:16.980] [SPEAKER_03]: And taking an airplane.
[59:16.980 --> 59:21.780] [SPEAKER_03]: I just, I, I didn't do, I mean, I like taking airplanes, so I...
[59:21.780 --> 59:23.400] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you heard what's happening in airplanes lately?
[59:23.620 --> 59:25.020] [SPEAKER_04]: They're, they're falling apart in the air.
[59:25.260 --> 59:28.740] [SPEAKER_03]: They're like, yeah, they're like, they're losing the doors.
[59:28.900 --> 59:30.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you don't want that.
[59:30.020 --> 59:31.440] [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't happen in a car usually.
[59:33.080 --> 59:35.160] [SPEAKER_03]: No, but okay, now we're going to start.
[59:35.260 --> 59:36.260] [SPEAKER_03]: Now we got to get back on the freeway.
[59:36.260 --> 59:37.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Get back on the freeway.
[59:37.060 --> 59:39.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Why, wait, why are we getting on the freeway with you right now?
[59:39.740 --> 59:41.400] [SPEAKER_04]: Can't you just stop and talk to us?
[59:41.500 --> 59:42.160] [SPEAKER_06]: Where are you going?
[59:42.160 --> 59:43.480] [SPEAKER_04]: I am stopping at...
[59:43.480 --> 59:47.680] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the thing about Bluetooth is that that has the quality of this Bluetooth.
[59:48.460 --> 59:52.580] [SPEAKER_04]: What, you literally said you're getting on the freeway, so that's not stopping and talking to us, is it?
[59:52.680 --> 59:54.720] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got his hands on the wheel, I mean...
[59:54.720 --> 59:55.240] [SPEAKER_06]: Does he?
[59:55.340 --> 59:55.620] [SPEAKER_06]: It's Bluetooth.
[59:55.620 --> 59:56.300] [SPEAKER_06]: How do you know that?
[59:56.520 --> 59:58.200] [SPEAKER_06]: It's Bluetooth, he just told us.
[59:58.740 --> 01:00:00.500] [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't mean he has his hands on the wheel.
[01:00:01.180 --> 01:00:01.640] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[01:00:02.560 --> 01:00:03.200] [SPEAKER_03]: I think...
[01:00:03.200 --> 01:00:04.120] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I'm weird.
[01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:05.980] [SPEAKER_03]: I put my phone on the...
[01:00:05.980 --> 01:00:07.360] [SPEAKER_03]: My phone is on the charging pad.
[01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:09.760] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that was the thing he was looking for, is to how to...
[01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:11.640] [SPEAKER_08]: I believe you're actually driving.
[01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:13.360] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you moving right now?
[01:00:13.620 --> 01:00:14.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Is your vehicle moving?
[01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:15.560] [SPEAKER_04]: I will be moving.
[01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:16.860] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I didn't want it to move.
[01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:21.220] [SPEAKER_04]: I was curious if you were going 60 miles an hour while you're looking for something and talking to us.
[01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:22.780] [SPEAKER_04]: If he feels confident...
[01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:24.540] [SPEAKER_08]: I trust him.
[01:00:24.600 --> 01:00:25.500] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't care if he feels confident.
[01:00:25.580 --> 01:00:27.120] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm worried about the people in front of him.
[01:00:27.200 --> 01:00:28.360] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, I'm sure they don't feel confident.
[01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:29.420] [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to speak to that.
[01:00:29.420 --> 01:00:38.580] [SPEAKER_08]: I was going to say that, like, he seems like he's doing all the right things as far as being in control of a very large...
[01:00:38.580 --> 01:00:40.780] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of things seem to be the way they're not.
[01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:42.600] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't feel he's endangering anyone.
[01:00:42.820 --> 01:00:44.080] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's an electric car, by the way.
[01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:45.340] [SPEAKER_03]: I might bring an electric car.
[01:00:45.680 --> 01:00:46.880] [SPEAKER_04]: We were going to get to that.
[01:00:47.080 --> 01:00:48.000] [SPEAKER_04]: But, okay.
[01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:48.960] [SPEAKER_04]: That's good.
[01:00:49.100 --> 01:00:49.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Good for you.
[01:00:49.720 --> 01:00:50.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Being green.
[01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:51.040] [SPEAKER_08]: Where are you going?
[01:00:52.540 --> 01:00:53.980] [SPEAKER_03]: Back to where I'm staying.
[01:00:54.120 --> 01:00:56.480] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my friend lives near San Diego, so I'm going to visit him.
[01:00:57.100 --> 01:00:58.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that sounds lovely.
[01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:02.700] [SPEAKER_04]: Anything relevant this week, Rebel?
[01:01:03.560 --> 01:01:05.640] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm sorry to hear what happened to HOPE.
[01:01:05.900 --> 01:01:09.960] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I hope that the HOPE conference, you know...
[01:01:10.420 --> 01:01:10.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:01:10.820 --> 01:01:15.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's hope it's a hiccup or a speed bump or whatever you want to call it, and that we figure out how to get past it.
[01:01:17.020 --> 01:01:18.860] [SPEAKER_04]: But acknowledging it is the first step, I think.
[01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:20.200] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[01:01:20.580 --> 01:01:21.100] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see.
[01:01:21.860 --> 01:01:23.280] [SPEAKER_03]: What else was I going to say?
[01:01:23.560 --> 01:01:25.020] [SPEAKER_03]: I should have written it down.
[01:01:25.080 --> 01:01:25.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you should have written it down.
[01:01:26.200 --> 01:01:27.920] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, people have been doing that for ages.
[01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:29.060] [SPEAKER_04]: Write things down.
[01:01:29.220 --> 01:01:29.740] [SPEAKER_04]: That way you won't forget...
[01:01:29.740 --> 01:01:30.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Don't say that while he's driving.
[01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:31.280] [SPEAKER_08]: He just needs to drive.
[01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:33.780] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't mean for him to do it while he's driving, obviously.
[01:01:34.020 --> 01:01:34.520] [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to say...
[01:01:34.520 --> 01:01:34.780] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[01:01:34.980 --> 01:01:38.160] [SPEAKER_03]: I went to the Phoenix 2600 meeting last week.
[01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:40.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, tell us all about it.
[01:01:41.460 --> 01:01:42.760] [SPEAKER_03]: It was very interesting.
[01:01:43.060 --> 01:01:43.800] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like...
[01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:44.840] [SPEAKER_03]: It was very formal.
[01:01:45.100 --> 01:01:46.700] [SPEAKER_03]: They had a PowerPoint presentation.
[01:01:46.940 --> 01:01:50.000] [SPEAKER_03]: They were talking about software-defined radios.
[01:01:50.020 --> 01:01:50.920] [SPEAKER_03]: Some meetings do that.
[01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:52.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Some meetings have presentations.
[01:01:52.460 --> 01:01:54.560] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I heard from Rob T.
[01:01:54.660 --> 01:01:56.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Firefly that New York City had a presentation.
[01:01:56.660 --> 01:01:57.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that right?
[01:01:58.060 --> 01:01:58.780] [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, indeed.
[01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:02.940] [SPEAKER_13]: One of our attendees was conducting a workshop on chain mail.
[01:02:02.940 --> 01:02:05.140] [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel insists on talking the same time you are.
[01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:07.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel, why don't you listen to Rob for a second?
[01:02:07.640 --> 01:02:10.700] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead and say what you're trying to say.
[01:02:12.060 --> 01:02:12.680] [SPEAKER_13]: Hi, Rebel.
[01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:20.100] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, one of our attendees very graciously led a demonstration on making chain mail and brought some supplies for folks to use.
[01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:23.320] [SPEAKER_13]: And I was looking it over and it looked very cool.
[01:02:23.500 --> 01:02:27.300] [SPEAKER_04]: I still question why that's being done at a hacker meeting, but whatever, you know.
[01:02:27.500 --> 01:02:28.840] [SPEAKER_04]: It's to each their own.
[01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:30.160] [SPEAKER_08]: Knife crimes.
[01:02:30.460 --> 01:02:31.220] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, back to you, Rebel.
[01:02:32.200 --> 01:02:34.480] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so, yes, it was very interesting.
[01:02:34.760 --> 01:02:35.700] [SPEAKER_03]: How could you find radio?
[01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:40.460] [SPEAKER_03]: It was kind of complicated because, I mean, they only had like an hour to talk.
[01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:53.000] [SPEAKER_03]: So, it wasn't like a 2600 meeting that you just, 5 o'clock, you just gather around and then, you know, about 8 o'clock or 7 o'clock, you know, you leave when they, when the place kind of closes.
[01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:56.460] [SPEAKER_03]: This is an actual room in a community center.
[01:02:56.460 --> 01:03:05.120] [SPEAKER_03]: So, they, you know, they, they actually, you know, have people that, you know, talk and have a hacker-defined radio, which, what is that?
[01:03:05.220 --> 01:03:07.220] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that like, they said it's like...
[01:03:07.220 --> 01:03:08.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, you attended the lecture.
[01:03:08.780 --> 01:03:10.100] [SPEAKER_04]: You should tell us what it is.
[01:03:10.580 --> 01:03:23.620] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it's something, they had a device hooked up to their laptop with an antenna and they were able to tune in to different frequencies, as if the computer and the device was a scanner, a frequency scanner.
[01:03:24.300 --> 01:03:25.360] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that right?
[01:03:25.580 --> 01:03:39.500] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, this is a really, I guess, well-followed, well, I don't know, I want to say like, grown-up thing now.
[01:03:39.700 --> 01:03:55.620] [SPEAKER_08]: It started off with people modifying and building custom equipment and we had several of the HOPE installations where we had ham radio licensing tests and people bringing gear.
[01:03:55.860 --> 01:04:21.420] [SPEAKER_08]: We began to see some of this stuff going from just older style radios that were doing one frequency at a time to something that can bring in all of it and allow you to, um, navigate it and see visualizations and use computer software in ways that some of the older hardware-based receivers and transmitters worked.
[01:04:21.680 --> 01:04:26.080] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not at all an expert in the field, but it has blown up.
[01:04:26.180 --> 01:04:27.660] [SPEAKER_04]: You showed me something, Kyle.
[01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:31.720] [SPEAKER_08]: It's called WebSDR, which is people putting these online to allow...
[01:04:31.720 --> 01:04:31.760] [SPEAKER_04]: It's amazing.
[01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:38.520] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like a radio dial and you can tune it live and listen to different frequencies as if you had a radio in that place.
[01:04:38.860 --> 01:04:41.080] [SPEAKER_04]: And not only that, multiple people can do the same thing.
[01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:43.040] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like science fiction, but it works.
[01:04:43.720 --> 01:04:45.980] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's one in Holland that I really like.
[01:04:46.100 --> 01:04:49.120] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the University of Twint, I believe.
[01:04:49.420 --> 01:04:50.100] [SPEAKER_08]: And they, um...
[01:04:50.100 --> 01:04:51.560] [SPEAKER_04]: It's T-W-E-N-T-E, I think.
[01:04:51.700 --> 01:04:53.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Electrical Engineering Department has...
[01:04:53.840 --> 01:05:05.060] [SPEAKER_08]: They built one a long time ago and then they repaired it and, um, put a better one in there that it's basically the size of, like, a Raspberry Pi or similar form factor.
[01:05:05.060 --> 01:05:05.140] [SPEAKER_08]: ...
[01:05:07.060 --> 01:05:08.040] [SPEAKER_04]: What was that riddle?
[01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:11.160] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I was talking on the CB, speaking on radio.
[01:05:11.580 --> 01:05:12.240] [SPEAKER_04]: So, let me do...
[01:05:12.240 --> 01:05:12.740] [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, wait, wait.
[01:05:12.820 --> 01:05:13.300] [SPEAKER_04]: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:13.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Hold on a second.
[01:05:13.780 --> 01:05:15.920] [SPEAKER_04]: You were talking on the CB radio while you were talking to us?
[01:05:17.380 --> 01:05:18.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but you were talking...
[01:05:18.860 --> 01:05:20.280] [SPEAKER_04]: We were talking to you.
[01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:20.580] [SPEAKER_04]: I see it.
[01:05:21.100 --> 01:05:23.080] [SPEAKER_04]: We were talking to you, for God's sake.
[01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:26.800] [SPEAKER_04]: And you respond to that by talking to somebody else on a different radio?
[01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:27.320] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:27.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Gaul.
[01:05:27.860 --> 01:05:31.560] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I thought I knew what Gaul was, but this, this is the pinnacle.
[01:05:31.700 --> 01:05:33.040] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, this is case in point.
[01:05:33.220 --> 01:05:35.300] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, this is the society we're living in now.
[01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:35.780] [SPEAKER_04]: This is it.
[01:05:35.880 --> 01:05:36.280] [SPEAKER_04]: This is it.
[01:05:36.340 --> 01:05:36.840] [SPEAKER_04]: Right here.
[01:05:37.320 --> 01:05:42.000] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything that you want to ask, what's gone wrong, communications, it's right in front of you.
[01:05:42.200 --> 01:05:42.780] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you know what?
[01:05:43.340 --> 01:05:45.600] [SPEAKER_08]: Ask Bard what SDR is.
[01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:47.100] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure Bard will tell you.
[01:05:47.660 --> 01:05:56.920] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, is it like you have scanners, like you have the scanner which can change the different frequencies and frequency bands, like a radio, but you do it with a computer now.
[01:05:56.920 --> 01:05:58.720] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that the way this works?
[01:05:59.240 --> 01:06:00.900] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's the short answer, sure.
[01:06:01.160 --> 01:06:02.600] [SPEAKER_08]: But who cares anyway, right?
[01:06:04.420 --> 01:06:04.860] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[01:06:05.620 --> 01:06:12.400] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I remember you're the one who told me that they put the in front of the freeway numbers in California.
[01:06:12.560 --> 01:06:14.560] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm on the 15 now.
[01:06:15.660 --> 01:06:15.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:17.720] [SPEAKER_04]: But you're in Canada, too.
[01:06:19.120 --> 01:06:20.080] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, in Canada, too.
[01:06:22.580 --> 01:06:23.160] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see.
[01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:24.820] [SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's talk on the radio.
[01:06:24.980 --> 01:06:25.500] [SPEAKER_03]: Would you like to hear?
[01:06:25.620 --> 01:06:26.240] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, let's see.
[01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:27.920] [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody's on the radio.
[01:06:28.980 --> 01:06:32.700] [SPEAKER_04]: No, they're all just being quiet because they hear you're in range.
[01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:35.700] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's called self-preservation.
[01:06:37.340 --> 01:06:39.920] [SPEAKER_03]: There's nobody even on the weather channel, the weather thing.
[01:06:40.380 --> 01:06:40.760] [SPEAKER_03]: Why is that?
[01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:42.540] [SPEAKER_03]: The radio is okay to see 16.
[01:06:43.300 --> 01:06:43.780] [SPEAKER_03]: What?
[01:06:44.520 --> 01:07:01.520] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's very complicated because, you know, you know, AM radio, CB is an AM radio band that is also FM, but it's very, the frequency that CB is on, it's very finicky.
[01:07:01.740 --> 01:07:09.820] [SPEAKER_03]: You have to have special antennas and they have to be grounded properly and tuned a certain way and mounted a certain way, you know?
[01:07:09.820 --> 01:07:09.840] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh,
[01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:13.440] [SPEAKER_04]: yes.
[01:07:14.640 --> 01:07:15.640] [SPEAKER_03]: Like AM radio.
[01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:17.120] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess AM radio is the same way.
[01:07:21.620 --> 01:07:23.480] [SPEAKER_03]: So, AM radio is very complicated.
[01:07:23.660 --> 01:07:26.000] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't have the AM radio license.
[01:07:31.120 --> 01:07:31.520] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:36.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Rebel, I think, um, I think we've all had our fill.
[01:07:36.940 --> 01:07:45.940] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so, um, careful driving and, um, give my regards to whoever you talk to on the CB radio and, uh, we will talk to you again in the future.
[01:07:46.140 --> 01:07:50.640] [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody was talking to see how the quality, the blowing into the microphone.
[01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:51.240] [SPEAKER_03]: Bluetooth.
[01:07:51.580 --> 01:07:51.740] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[01:07:52.040 --> 01:07:52.240] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:53.160] [SPEAKER_03]: The quality.
[01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:55.420] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm blown away by the quality.
[01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:57.220] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[01:07:57.220 --> 01:08:00.560] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like, and while you're driving too, because it's an electric console.
[01:08:00.740 --> 01:08:01.860] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no, like, motor noise.
[01:08:02.240 --> 01:08:03.040] [SPEAKER_04]: No, that's true.
[01:08:03.060 --> 01:08:03.600] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very quiet.
[01:08:03.620 --> 01:08:04.840] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll, I'll, I'll give you that.
[01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:06.800] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no engine noise from Rebel at all.
[01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:09.700] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but, uh, do enjoy yourself out there in California.
[01:08:09.700 --> 01:08:11.420] [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to open the phone lines for somebody else.
[01:08:11.620 --> 01:08:18.680] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is, of course, our, our, um, our regular caller Rebel from the roads of California right now.
[01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:20.600] [SPEAKER_04]: Probably read about that in the paper somewhere.
[01:08:21.240 --> 01:08:23.920] [SPEAKER_04]: 802-321-4225 is our telephone number.
[01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:27.140] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Rob Gila, any, any comments from you have been rather quiet.
[01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:35.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, well, just wanted to say hello to the 42 people who are currently joined with us on the live stream.
[01:08:36.060 --> 01:08:45.120] [SPEAKER_11]: Um, we did have, uh, our friend Lex tell us, uh, he says, you know, careful Rebel, that's how you get banned.
[01:08:45.120 --> 01:08:46.840] [SPEAKER_11]: So I'm just putting that out there.
[01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:58.600] [SPEAKER_11]: Although I did say to Rob when Rebel called that the fact that he wasn't commenting in the YouTube chat while driving was definitely, you know, a positive choice on his part.
[01:08:58.840 --> 01:08:58.940] [SPEAKER_11]: So.
[01:08:59.080 --> 01:09:00.000] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if that was a choice.
[01:09:00.040 --> 01:09:00.960] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that was a limitation.
[01:09:00.960 --> 01:09:04.240] [SPEAKER_04]: I think you just couldn't do that on top of everything else while driving.
[01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:06.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm just saying.
[01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:17.140] [SPEAKER_11]: So, um, and yes, so, uh, yes, it is indeed 42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
[01:09:18.020 --> 01:09:20.960] [SPEAKER_04]: And now why are you saying that now?
[01:09:22.240 --> 01:09:34.960] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, because we had 42 people in the chat and someone commented, our friend, a friend of ours commented, well, I was about to, and then all of a sudden we had gone down to 40, but now we're back to 42.
[01:09:35.240 --> 01:09:44.480] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, you know, it's when people suddenly respond to somebody who is online as opposed to the person they're talking to on the radio, it gets a little confusing.
[01:09:44.480 --> 01:09:46.860] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's sort of a part of what we're talking about.
[01:09:47.100 --> 01:09:49.060] [SPEAKER_04]: People, all different communication channels.
[01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:53.640] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, everything's, and now I'm just watching the number.
[01:09:53.740 --> 01:09:54.440] [SPEAKER_11]: Now we're at 44.
[01:09:54.940 --> 01:09:55.900] [SPEAKER_11]: See how distracted you are?
[01:09:56.240 --> 01:09:57.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Just by a number.
[01:09:57.720 --> 01:09:58.900] [SPEAKER_08]: We have a call on the one.
[01:09:59.000 --> 01:09:59.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we have a call.
[01:09:59.780 --> 01:10:01.900] [SPEAKER_04]: You see, the caller has been waiting patiently.
[01:10:02.460 --> 01:10:03.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Have they been patient?
[01:10:03.620 --> 01:10:04.200] [SPEAKER_04]: They have to be patient.
[01:10:04.420 --> 01:10:04.820] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:05.240] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:10:05.300 --> 01:10:05.820] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we'll find out.
[01:10:05.900 --> 01:10:06.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[01:10:06.300 --> 01:10:07.240] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on off the cover time.
[01:10:07.320 --> 01:10:07.500] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[01:10:08.520 --> 01:10:09.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Emmanuel.
[01:10:09.360 --> 01:10:10.000] [SPEAKER_00]: It's Del Shai.
[01:10:10.240 --> 01:10:10.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Del Shai.
[01:10:11.020 --> 01:10:11.400] [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing?
[01:10:11.460 --> 01:10:13.940] [SPEAKER_04]: How are your articles printed in this latest issue?
[01:10:14.220 --> 01:10:14.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[01:10:14.960 --> 01:10:17.260] [SPEAKER_00]: We had a minor celebration over here.
[01:10:17.300 --> 01:10:17.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:18.820] [SPEAKER_00]: To that effect.
[01:10:19.620 --> 01:10:20.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, congratulations.
[01:10:20.520 --> 01:10:21.900] [SPEAKER_04]: It was really good.
[01:10:21.980 --> 01:10:23.480] [SPEAKER_04]: About the bone box, I believe.
[01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:25.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the bone box.
[01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:27.860] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't heard a lot.
[01:10:27.940 --> 01:10:30.940] [SPEAKER_00]: A couple of people have actually hit me up asking me how to build one.
[01:10:31.480 --> 01:10:38.520] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm trying to get my hands on another craft access terminal so I can do a better, you know, step-by-step picture, video.
[01:10:38.900 --> 01:10:40.120] [SPEAKER_00]: This is how you do it.
[01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:45.600] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we have one, and it's kind of just sitting around.
[01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:48.900] [SPEAKER_08]: So if you want one, you can have it.
[01:10:50.020 --> 01:10:50.800] [SPEAKER_08]: That'd be great.
[01:10:51.160 --> 01:10:52.700] [SPEAKER_04]: But you just gave away our craft access terminal?
[01:10:52.900 --> 01:10:53.660] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want it.
[01:10:53.740 --> 01:10:54.300] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you want it?
[01:10:54.440 --> 01:10:56.780] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's like a trophy.
[01:10:56.960 --> 01:10:57.860] [SPEAKER_04]: It's something you hold on to.
[01:10:57.980 --> 01:10:58.060] [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
[01:10:58.060 --> 01:10:58.900] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a trophy.
[01:10:58.920 --> 01:10:59.260] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:10:59.260 --> 01:11:05.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And you should hang on to it, especially if you have, like, a toy museum, kind of like I have.
[01:11:06.320 --> 01:11:20.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, if you're building it for someone and they're going to buy it, then, yeah, maybe it shouldn't be just, but if you're going to use it as an instruction piece or some, you needed another one to share the project.
[01:11:20.480 --> 01:11:21.800] [SPEAKER_08]: But I don't know.
[01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:22.780] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just saying we have one.
[01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:23.540] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not doing anything.
[01:11:23.660 --> 01:11:24.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Nobody seems to...
[01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:32.920] [SPEAKER_08]: The only time anyone ever does anything with it is when we're, like, showing off old phones and stuff.
[01:11:33.060 --> 01:11:37.780] [SPEAKER_08]: Someone who may have worked in the industry, they'll, like, pick it up and say, hey, I know what this is.
[01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:40.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's not like it can do anything right now, can it?
[01:11:40.020 --> 01:11:41.660] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, would it even work?
[01:11:41.820 --> 01:11:41.920] [SPEAKER_04]: No, it can't.
[01:11:42.040 --> 01:11:44.500] [SPEAKER_08]: No, it's a curiosity.
[01:11:44.500 --> 01:11:48.360] [SPEAKER_00]: The Twixons that I've decided to work with have been long since decommissioned.
[01:11:48.480 --> 01:11:48.880] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[01:11:49.080 --> 01:11:49.480] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:49.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:11:50.200 --> 01:11:51.540] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why, I mean, it wouldn't be...
[01:11:51.540 --> 01:11:55.060] [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't operate on its own as a butt set.
[01:11:55.180 --> 01:11:58.600] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you would think it would, but it doesn't because of the way it's rigged up.
[01:11:58.800 --> 01:11:58.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:11:59.780 --> 01:12:01.020] [SPEAKER_04]: We have butt sets, too.
[01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:02.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:03.600] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a lot of things.
[01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:04.840] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got plenty of those.
[01:12:05.100 --> 01:12:06.440] [SPEAKER_00]: I actually made one.
[01:12:06.500 --> 01:12:07.540] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you've seen it.
[01:12:07.540 --> 01:12:10.540] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, I made a Hello Kitty butt set.
[01:12:13.160 --> 01:12:14.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, someone had to.
[01:12:15.220 --> 01:12:16.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was a gift.
[01:12:16.700 --> 01:12:18.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it's one of those things.
[01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:21.400] [SPEAKER_00]: And somebody you know is a big Hello Kitty fan.
[01:12:21.480 --> 01:12:22.640] [SPEAKER_00]: And they have everything Hello Kitty.
[01:12:22.820 --> 01:12:23.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, oh, no, you don't.
[01:12:23.940 --> 01:12:24.440] [SPEAKER_00]: Watch this.
[01:12:24.540 --> 01:12:25.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Hold my beer.
[01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:29.780] [SPEAKER_00]: And now they have a Hello Kitty lineman set.
[01:12:31.560 --> 01:12:31.920] Wow.
[01:12:32.440 --> 01:12:32.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Meow.
[01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:37.420] [SPEAKER_13]: Anything else, Doug?
[01:12:37.540 --> 01:12:37.980] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Rob.
[01:12:38.140 --> 01:12:38.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Doug.
[01:12:39.080 --> 01:12:40.100] [SPEAKER_13]: That is fantastic.
[01:12:40.120 --> 01:12:47.260] [SPEAKER_13]: And I know we're an audio medium, but that doesn't mean you can't send us a picture of the Hello Kitty butt set at oth@2600.com.
[01:12:47.900 --> 01:12:48.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[01:12:48.640 --> 01:12:50.940] [SPEAKER_00]: It was on Gizmodo and a bunch of other places.
[01:12:51.080 --> 01:12:51.900] [SPEAKER_00]: You just Google it.
[01:12:51.980 --> 01:12:52.540] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll see it.
[01:12:53.620 --> 01:12:54.020] [SPEAKER_08]: Fantastic.
[01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:56.720] [SPEAKER_08]: Keep up the great work.
[01:12:56.840 --> 01:13:01.760] [SPEAKER_08]: Those sound like awesome found object, I guess, modifications.
[01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:03.320] [SPEAKER_08]: Upgrades.
[01:13:03.320 --> 01:13:05.020] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I've been doing a lot of lately.
[01:13:06.120 --> 01:13:15.320] [SPEAKER_00]: I just did an article for the Adafruit site about building a patch bay out of old keystone parts.
[01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:16.700] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah.
[01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:17.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:13:17.580 --> 01:13:22.240] [SPEAKER_08]: So, like, the kind of thing that would be for, like, a network or telecommunications rack.
[01:13:22.240 --> 01:13:32.740] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's kind of that, but I expanded on it because people were complaining about having to always pull out the TV and pull out the racks in order to plug things in.
[01:13:33.440 --> 01:13:34.000] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:46.080] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have, like, a retro gaming console or something, now you just have this panel that you just plug into literally in the front of the rack that just says, you know, okay, take this signal, put it into here.
[01:13:46.380 --> 01:13:49.680] [SPEAKER_00]: That's HDMI 1 on this TV, and you're done.
[01:13:49.880 --> 01:13:51.560] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to rewire anything.
[01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:52.980] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to pull anything apart.
[01:13:53.200 --> 01:13:54.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can switch things around.
[01:13:54.880 --> 01:14:02.740] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very, like, analog, poor man's solution because a lot of newer equipment has switches built into it.
[01:14:02.860 --> 01:14:12.460] [SPEAKER_00]: But when you're dealing with older equipment, you know, that doesn't have that built in or isn't made for it, you can still get RCA keystone plugs.
[01:14:15.700 --> 01:14:29.960] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, like, being able to add things to your stereo or to, you know, somebody comes over with a console or you're having a LAN party or something, you can just plug into this rack instead of having to go digging around and throwing wires everywhere.
[01:14:32.130 --> 01:14:33.270] [SPEAKER_08]: Wow, that's great.
[01:14:33.460 --> 01:14:42.120] [SPEAKER_08]: Keeps it organized, keeps it simple, and you can get right to what you're doing instead of figuring out how you're going to make it all work and even get to that point.
[01:14:42.980 --> 01:14:52.730] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, it's great if you have an audio mixer because you don't have to keep pulling the audio mixer out and undoing the rack screws and pulling everything out to plug new things in.
[01:14:54.500 --> 01:14:55.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Very cool.
[01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:59.310] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Deltra, when's the next article you're going to write for us?
[01:15:00.220 --> 01:15:05.930] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, I could get... I'm trying to come up with something that's, you know, good enough.
[01:15:06.270 --> 01:15:09.620] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, I've got something I'm writing on home automation right now.
[01:15:09.810 --> 01:15:10.120] Okay.
[01:15:11.250 --> 01:15:15.920] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing this project here at home, cloudless home automation.
[01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:21.040] [SPEAKER_00]: No Google, no Siri, no nothing, just cutting them all out of the loop.
[01:15:21.160 --> 01:15:22.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm interested in that.
[01:15:23.150 --> 01:15:27.470] [SPEAKER_00]: But still having fully functional home automation.
[01:15:28.170 --> 01:15:31.090] [SPEAKER_04]: I think a lot of people will be interested in that, for sure.
[01:15:31.090 --> 01:15:40.840] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all based around a project called Home Assistant, which is the only system I've found that supports doing this without the cloud.
[01:15:41.090 --> 01:15:47.630] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they have options to be in the cloud, but you have to specifically, purposefully turn them on.
[01:15:48.270 --> 01:15:55.430] [SPEAKER_00]: But right now, I've got a series of Raspberry Pis with, like, seven-inch touchscreens all over my apartment.
[01:15:55.430 --> 01:16:00.170] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've got an L-Cars interface for it, which looks so badass.
[01:16:00.170 --> 01:16:01.080] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so beautiful.
[01:16:01.850 --> 01:16:05.960] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can do things like control lights, control audio.
[01:16:06.310 --> 01:16:17.260] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got this thing called ambient audio, an ambient audio system, where I have a separate set of speakers and a separate amp that just plays, like, low-key background sound.
[01:16:17.260 --> 01:16:23.700] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, a thunderstorm or a, you know, windstorm or water flowing over a bridge.
[01:16:24.050 --> 01:16:25.850] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I got the brilliant idea.
[01:16:25.850 --> 01:16:31.350] [SPEAKER_00]: I went out and I got a sample of the engineering sound from the original Star Trek.
[01:16:31.820 --> 01:16:36.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, when you go out into the engineering department, you hear that little wop, wop, wop, wop, wop.
[01:16:36.230 --> 01:16:40.630] [SPEAKER_00]: So now my entire apartment sounds like you're in the engineering deck of the Enterprise.
[01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:42.270] Wow.
[01:16:42.550 --> 01:16:44.300] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we all know that sound.
[01:16:45.630 --> 01:16:51.270] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've also got it rigged up where you can, like, hit a button and play samples to a specific place.
[01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:56.270] [SPEAKER_00]: And I use another Raspberry Pi for that to act as an audio server.
[01:16:56.700 --> 01:17:04.840] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, if I can see my cat doing something she's not supposed to be doing, I can hit a button and over on my bed, the speaker will play, hey, stop that.
[01:17:05.200 --> 01:17:08.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, has the cat learned how to press the button and talk to you?
[01:17:09.230 --> 01:17:10.010] [SPEAKER_00]: Not yet.
[01:17:10.010 --> 01:17:14.960] [SPEAKER_00]: Although that does exist, but those are buttons that you put on the floor.
[01:17:15.160 --> 01:17:18.310] [SPEAKER_00]: And it takes a lot of training to get them to use it correctly.
[01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:21.470] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually easier with dogs.
[01:17:21.880 --> 01:17:22.430] Uh-huh.
[01:17:23.860 --> 01:17:25.880] [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen it done with dogs.
[01:17:26.580 --> 01:17:28.920] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, and that might be the next thing I write for you.
[01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:29.810] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that sounds great.
[01:17:29.880 --> 01:17:38.230] [SPEAKER_04]: And please go into detail because this is the kind of thing that deserves to be really spelled out in great detail, I think.
[01:17:38.230 --> 01:17:52.550] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I remember earlier in the dawn of PCs and home computers, this was something people were really interested in, making the early operating systems work with things around the home.
[01:17:52.550 --> 01:17:56.270] [SPEAKER_08]: And this is still of interest to everybody.
[01:17:56.460 --> 01:17:57.510] [SPEAKER_08]: Everybody has a space.
[01:17:57.670 --> 01:18:03.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And integrating these things themselves to suit their need is a skill.
[01:18:03.200 --> 01:18:04.800] [SPEAKER_08]: It takes design and stuff like that.
[01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:08.210] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's still desirable, and there's so much to update it with.
[01:18:08.230 --> 01:18:10.620] [SPEAKER_08]: So there's a lot there that you could get into.
[01:18:11.660 --> 01:18:13.660] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's something you might find interesting.
[01:18:14.090 --> 01:18:20.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know when one of the very first articles written about home automation was written?
[01:18:22.490 --> 01:18:24.390] [SPEAKER_00]: It was in a magazine.
[01:18:24.660 --> 01:18:24.970] [SPEAKER_04]: In a magazine.
[01:18:25.200 --> 01:18:29.460] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to say sometime in the 1930s.
[01:18:31.200 --> 01:18:32.840] [SPEAKER_00]: That I haven't seen.
[01:18:33.160 --> 01:18:36.260] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about fully working home automation.
[01:18:36.710 --> 01:18:39.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, 1940s.
[01:18:39.760 --> 01:18:43.710] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, I'm betting on early rather than...
[01:18:43.710 --> 01:18:44.630] [SPEAKER_00]: 1979.
[01:18:45.350 --> 01:18:46.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, it would have gotten there eventually.
[01:18:47.470 --> 01:18:54.770] [SPEAKER_00]: Popular Science did an article about a guy who had built a home automation system he called Breslin.
[01:18:56.500 --> 01:19:00.080] [SPEAKER_00]: And all of the fun he had had with that.
[01:19:00.230 --> 01:19:03.970] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it worked right, but then it would freak out on him.
[01:19:04.460 --> 01:19:08.510] [SPEAKER_00]: One time he was like painting the house and the garage door would open.
[01:19:09.660 --> 01:19:12.010] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was all very basic stuff.
[01:19:12.010 --> 01:19:15.230] [SPEAKER_00]: It almost predated X10.
[01:19:16.050 --> 01:19:16.730] Wow.
[01:19:17.580 --> 01:19:21.960] [SPEAKER_00]: And the X10 was the original progenitor of home automation.
[01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:29.210] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though it wasn't really automation, but it was a centralized place where you could push buttons and make things happen.
[01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:32.120] [SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't completely...
[01:19:32.120 --> 01:19:35.080] [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't wireless, first of all, until later on.
[01:19:35.080 --> 01:19:43.390] [SPEAKER_00]: Later on, they made a wireless remote that looked like an old walkie-talkie that had like the four-foot-long extendable antenna on it.
[01:19:43.500 --> 01:19:47.390] [SPEAKER_00]: But it worked over the electrical wiring in your house.
[01:19:48.620 --> 01:19:55.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And you had a command center, and it would piggyback a signal onto the regular wall voltage.
[01:19:56.260 --> 01:20:01.700] [SPEAKER_00]: And it would go through, and the receiver would receive it, and your light would come on.
[01:20:01.960 --> 01:20:03.730] [SPEAKER_00]: Or your blender would turn on.
[01:20:05.220 --> 01:20:07.340] [SPEAKER_00]: So quaint and cumbersome.
[01:20:07.810 --> 01:20:08.770] [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time.
[01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:10.620] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was absolutely cumbersome.
[01:20:10.670 --> 01:20:11.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And it didn't always work.
[01:20:12.160 --> 01:20:19.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you couldn't always be assured that there was a circuit path from where you were from your source to your destination device.
[01:20:19.800 --> 01:20:24.000] [SPEAKER_08]: Like somebody turns off a switch somewhere, and it closes it.
[01:20:25.420 --> 01:20:27.800] [SPEAKER_08]: And interference alone...
[01:20:29.320 --> 01:20:33.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because it was on the internal house wire, it didn't have much interference.
[01:20:33.850 --> 01:20:34.120] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[01:20:35.100 --> 01:20:37.510] [SPEAKER_00]: The wireless stuff, yeah, it had interference.
[01:20:37.670 --> 01:20:39.270] [SPEAKER_00]: It had interference like mad.
[01:20:39.780 --> 01:20:43.500] [SPEAKER_00]: But this, I mean, this is way before anybody had even thought of IoT.
[01:20:44.700 --> 01:20:45.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:20:45.230 --> 01:20:47.390] [SPEAKER_00]: And IoT comes with its own nightmares.
[01:20:48.210 --> 01:20:50.550] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many things.
[01:20:51.000 --> 01:20:58.420] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're ever curious about IoT devices and people who are using them, just use Showdown.
[01:20:59.010 --> 01:20:59.670] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[01:20:59.770 --> 01:21:00.050] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[01:21:00.050 --> 01:21:04.210] [SPEAKER_00]: Because so many IoT devices, people don't realize what they get.
[01:21:04.540 --> 01:21:09.230] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, oh, I have this nifty device, and I can turn my lights on and do this and do that.
[01:21:09.230 --> 01:21:23.420] [SPEAKER_00]: And it punches a hole in the inherent firewall in your home system and allows people from the outside to control your house, especially if you don't change the default passwords.
[01:21:24.090 --> 01:21:28.590] [SPEAKER_00]: Same thing goes with a lot of these white box security camera systems.
[01:21:29.040 --> 01:21:34.300] [SPEAKER_00]: You can go in there and put in a port number and see cameras all over the world.
[01:21:34.540 --> 01:21:44.550] [SPEAKER_00]: And people just have never changed the default passwords, or they didn't know that you could, that when you set the thing up, it punches a hole in your firewall.
[01:21:46.420 --> 01:21:52.760] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, Delshai, nobody's written a really good article on Showdown for the magazine either.
[01:21:52.970 --> 01:22:03.260] [SPEAKER_04]: They've mentioned it, they've alluded to it, but I'd like to see a comprehensive guide or just something with specific examples, because, boy, there is a whole world in there.
[01:22:03.940 --> 01:22:04.730] [SPEAKER_00]: There is.
[01:22:04.970 --> 01:22:08.380] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can easily, very easily get lost in it.
[01:22:10.120 --> 01:22:24.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Back in the early days of external hard drives, USB external hard drives, they had the same problem, where, you know, they said, yeah, you can share pictures with grandma in, you know, Ohio, just plug this thing in.
[01:22:24.920 --> 01:22:37.270] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it would either use UPnP or it would use some other form of bypassing that to, hey, here you go, here's your IP address, go to this port, and you're in.
[01:22:38.760 --> 01:22:45.010] [SPEAKER_00]: And people were having their music collections raided and all their photos raided.
[01:22:45.160 --> 01:22:47.460] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's the good, the bad, and the ugly.
[01:22:47.620 --> 01:22:55.380] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people went out there and they just saw it and used it as a proof of concept to teach people, you know, hey, be careful of this.
[01:22:55.380 --> 01:23:01.160] [SPEAKER_00]: And the bad were the people who would go out there and, you know, oh, it's a nice music collection, now it's mine.
[01:23:01.660 --> 01:23:06.040] [SPEAKER_00]: And the ugly, when people would go out there and go, watch me delete everything this guy has.
[01:23:06.040 --> 01:23:09.770] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you'd go out there, oh, look, here's your tax records for the last 10 years.
[01:23:10.010 --> 01:23:10.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Boom, gone.
[01:23:10.890 --> 01:23:12.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but write access doesn't make any sense.
[01:23:13.160 --> 01:23:16.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Sharing sounds like a good thing, and I don't really see a problem with that.
[01:23:16.710 --> 01:23:27.200] [SPEAKER_00]: But once again, if you don't know what to do with it, and you just leave the defaults there, a lot of times the defaults will let you have read-write access.
[01:23:27.310 --> 01:23:27.730] [SPEAKER_04]: That's true.
[01:23:27.930 --> 01:23:28.670] [SPEAKER_00]: That's very true.
[01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:31.340] [SPEAKER_00]: Or you'll have an admin account with no password.
[01:23:31.340 --> 01:23:57.120] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, this is why I think basic home networking needs instructions around the need to separate and segment different parts of your network, use different domain and overall IP structure, so that things are not necessarily on the same subnets, and they're not connected in the ways that they are when everything's default,
[01:23:57.120 --> 01:23:57.960] [SPEAKER_08]: as you're saying.
[01:23:57.960 --> 01:24:01.170] [SPEAKER_08]: And that is also an area that people don't talk about enough.
[01:24:01.310 --> 01:24:02.710] [SPEAKER_08]: Like, what's your hacker network like?
[01:24:02.890 --> 01:24:03.050] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[01:24:03.050 --> 01:24:07.040] [SPEAKER_08]: How do you set up your enterprise?
[01:24:09.850 --> 01:24:18.310] [SPEAKER_00]: You realize that we live in a world where, you know, people shoot 12 packs of beer because they're politically angry.
[01:24:18.930 --> 01:24:20.540] [SPEAKER_00]: These aren't rocket scientists.
[01:24:20.540 --> 01:24:22.420] [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't know an IP subnet.
[01:24:22.540 --> 01:24:23.770] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not news to me.
[01:24:24.630 --> 01:24:24.960] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:24:25.730 --> 01:24:29.510] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like, the thing is, I mean, you're not wrong.
[01:24:29.710 --> 01:24:31.550] [SPEAKER_00]: You're completely 110% right.
[01:24:31.710 --> 01:24:37.670] [SPEAKER_00]: But expecting the average person to be able to do that kind of network engineering at home...
[01:24:37.670 --> 01:24:52.090] [SPEAKER_08]: Not only that, though, I mean, I would say even at hacker conferences and stuff like that, there's this tendency to guard, and people want to guard what they know because it gives them status and won't share.
[01:24:52.090 --> 01:24:56.340] [SPEAKER_08]: And people end up not knowing how to do basic stuff.
[01:24:56.420 --> 01:24:57.770] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's just true in the world in general.
[01:24:57.970 --> 01:24:59.210] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like a lot of things...
[01:25:00.200 --> 01:25:03.270] [SPEAKER_00]: That's been a problem since the days when I owned a TRS-80.
[01:25:03.390 --> 01:25:03.730] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:04.840] [SPEAKER_00]: So here we are, like...
[01:25:04.840 --> 01:25:08.550] [SPEAKER_00]: The only thing you can do about that is directly fight it yourself.
[01:25:08.730 --> 01:25:08.930] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[01:25:09.160 --> 01:25:09.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, like...
[01:25:09.580 --> 01:25:12.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Is to not be that gatekeeper, not be that person.
[01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:15.810] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the only thing you can do, and it's still going to be out there.
[01:25:15.810 --> 01:25:21.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and beating a dead horse about other people and how bad their networks are set up or how they're not going to listen.
[01:25:22.010 --> 01:25:25.340] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we've been doing that for a very, very long time.
[01:25:25.540 --> 01:25:26.920] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to say, they don't have...
[01:25:26.920 --> 01:25:28.200] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not even aware.
[01:25:28.920 --> 01:25:31.580] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not even aware of what they're doing half the time.
[01:25:31.700 --> 01:25:32.850] [SPEAKER_00]: This is not a matter of...
[01:25:32.850 --> 01:25:33.380] [SPEAKER_00]: Until...
[01:25:33.380 --> 01:25:33.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Until...
[01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:36.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Beating the dead horse so people are computer illiterate.
[01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:37.660] [SPEAKER_00]: This is like...
[01:25:37.660 --> 01:25:49.590] [SPEAKER_00]: There are literally people out there who will go out and buy a gizmo that they see on TV without even thinking, without even putting any thought whatsoever into what it does to their network.
[01:25:49.800 --> 01:25:51.510] [SPEAKER_00]: And you say, well, I don't need a home network.
[01:25:51.510 --> 01:25:54.890] [SPEAKER_00]: I just plug into that box the cable company gave me, and it's all done.
[01:25:55.040 --> 01:25:55.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[01:25:55.890 --> 01:26:00.770] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and that's why there's something out there you might want to check out called NBTV.
[01:26:01.540 --> 01:26:02.160] [SPEAKER_04]: What's that?
[01:26:03.670 --> 01:26:29.390] [SPEAKER_00]: Naomi Brockwell is a privacy advocate who does this amazing set of videos on how to protect your privacy, how to configure things, how to de-Google your phone, and they're done with a really light-hearted but intelligent manner so that people can follow it.
[01:26:30.120 --> 01:26:30.540] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:31.420] [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds good.
[01:26:31.420 --> 01:26:37.550] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's made for the average user who may have just stumbled upon the word cyber by accident.
[01:26:38.260 --> 01:26:42.210] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's an entire channel on YouTube, but there's also...
[01:26:42.210 --> 01:26:50.970] [SPEAKER_00]: She does talks and lectures and how-tos, and they're all very down-to-earth, and some of them are kind of funny, but they're all relatable.
[01:26:51.710 --> 01:27:16.170] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a great outreach to people who need to be reached out to and need to be told, you know, hey, listen, before you do that, I had a knock-down, drag-out verbal with a friend of mine who thought I was being a paranoid schizophrenic because I didn't want to use Zelle.
[01:27:18.270 --> 01:27:21.700] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a money-exchanging system, similar to PayPal.
[01:27:22.260 --> 01:27:25.580] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, look, I don't want my phone sucked dry for data.
[01:27:25.580 --> 01:27:31.740] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want my phone book in my phone resold for profit.
[01:27:31.740 --> 01:27:33.400] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, no, that doesn't happen.
[01:27:33.400 --> 01:27:34.160] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't happen.
[01:27:34.240 --> 01:27:35.020] [SPEAKER_00]: You're just nuts.
[01:27:35.020 --> 01:27:43.480] [SPEAKER_00]: And I sat him down, and I took him to the web page, and I showed him their privacy policy, and I showed them the chart that said exactly what they do.
[01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:47.360] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we will sell this data to third-party channel partners.
[01:27:48.060 --> 01:27:51.980] [SPEAKER_00]: And they install anti-malware software on your phone.
[01:27:52.380 --> 01:27:55.440] [SPEAKER_00]: They do all kinds of things to all the data you give them.
[01:27:55.660 --> 01:27:59.260] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's all wrapped up, oh, for your security and your privacy.
[01:27:59.260 --> 01:28:04.200] [SPEAKER_00]: But then you see, oh, yeah, well, we have channel partners who we sell this information to.
[01:28:05.720 --> 01:28:15.710] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, that's the sort of thing people will actually actively fight against you and tell you you're just being a paranoid until you put the proof down in front of them.
[01:28:15.820 --> 01:28:16.620] [SPEAKER_08]: We're so used to that.
[01:28:16.620 --> 01:28:23.040] [SPEAKER_08]: We're so incredibly used to that because it's like this gap in knowledge.
[01:28:23.040 --> 01:28:41.840] [SPEAKER_08]: And it is critical that people are presented in an approachable way so they understand that this is actually a very, like, fundamental part of the way consumer electronics and the Internet has evolved and that they're inviting a lot more.
[01:28:41.900 --> 01:28:46.300] [SPEAKER_08]: And without realizing it, they're actually much more vulnerable.
[01:28:46.500 --> 01:28:48.170] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's great to share that.
[01:28:48.300 --> 01:28:50.210] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's exactly our mission here on the radio.
[01:28:50.210 --> 01:28:54.780] [SPEAKER_08]: And in a lot of the things that we try to spread, it's like, how can we simplify this?
[01:28:54.920 --> 01:29:07.090] [SPEAKER_08]: We need more articles about stuff like that, like Shodan, as you said, and some of the other stuff, just so people have an idea of how powerful some of these things are when they're not used as intended.
[01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:08.700] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, we bought a gizmo.
[01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:10.340] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, I plugged the gizmo in.
[01:29:10.460 --> 01:29:13.900] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not sure if that gizmo is treating our network properly.
[01:29:14.040 --> 01:29:15.260] [SPEAKER_08]: I actually haven't checked on the gizmo.
[01:29:15.380 --> 01:29:16.550] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know where the gizmo is.
[01:29:16.920 --> 01:29:17.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Gila, go ahead.
[01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:29.580] [SPEAKER_11]: Gila, we have gotten a request from a listener saying they would love to see this IoT stuff.
[01:29:29.740 --> 01:29:32.210] [SPEAKER_11]: It was like a talk or a workshop at HOPE XV.
[01:29:32.520 --> 01:29:35.180] [SPEAKER_11]: So if you're considering submitting...
[01:29:35.740 --> 01:29:36.980] [SPEAKER_11]: Wow, that didn't even come from us.
[01:29:37.040 --> 01:29:37.280] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be fantastic.
[01:29:37.320 --> 01:29:38.520] [SPEAKER_04]: That came from somebody else.
[01:29:38.860 --> 01:29:41.040] [SPEAKER_11]: That came from a listener in the chat.
[01:29:41.040 --> 01:29:45.400] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unlikely I'll be able to make HOPE, but I'll try.
[01:29:46.200 --> 01:29:47.200] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't...
[01:29:47.200 --> 01:29:48.760] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't get around much anymore.
[01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:53.520] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a really gnarly spine injury that's left me unable to walk.
[01:29:54.880 --> 01:29:57.380] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't travel that well.
[01:29:57.380 --> 01:29:58.760] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on the other coast now.
[01:29:58.900 --> 01:29:59.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Delchi...
[01:29:59.920 --> 01:30:01.420] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I will definitely look into that.
[01:30:01.500 --> 01:30:05.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because one thing that came out of the pandemic was the virtual part of HOPE.
[01:30:05.590 --> 01:30:07.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And we still have that.
[01:30:07.260 --> 01:30:08.670] [SPEAKER_04]: We still have some virtual talks.
[01:30:08.700 --> 01:30:10.900] [SPEAKER_04]: And we might even have a virtual track.
[01:30:10.900 --> 01:30:12.460] [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll figure out how to do that.
[01:30:12.580 --> 01:30:14.210] [SPEAKER_04]: But we definitely want to include you.
[01:30:15.060 --> 01:30:16.040] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, definitely.
[01:30:16.400 --> 01:30:21.920] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, my very first talk at a large con was at HOPE many, many, many years ago.
[01:30:22.000 --> 01:30:23.000] [SPEAKER_00]: I was just going to bring up...
[01:30:23.000 --> 01:30:23.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[01:30:23.500 --> 01:30:24.710] [SPEAKER_00]: ...the spider box.
[01:30:25.000 --> 01:30:25.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:30:25.460 --> 01:30:25.940] [SPEAKER_00]: ...the spider box.
[01:30:26.160 --> 01:30:27.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and that's online.
[01:30:27.440 --> 01:30:29.550] [SPEAKER_04]: That's on this very channel, Channel2600.
[01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:32.020] [SPEAKER_04]: If you go to whichever HOPE that was.
[01:30:35.590 --> 01:30:43.090] [SPEAKER_00]: I had built a head card reader that I put in a flower pot and read people's badges as they walked past it and going into a building in New York.
[01:30:43.240 --> 01:30:43.460] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[01:30:43.590 --> 01:30:46.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Was that going all the way back to, like, H2K2 or something?
[01:30:47.080 --> 01:30:49.170] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was H2K2.
[01:30:49.380 --> 01:30:50.400] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's 2002.
[01:30:52.440 --> 01:30:58.400] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was 2002, yeah, because I think it was the same year that...
[01:30:58.400 --> 01:31:00.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you have Jell-O as a keynote speaker that year?
[01:31:00.840 --> 01:31:04.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, Jell-O was a keynote for a few years, but I think that was one of them.
[01:31:05.060 --> 01:31:13.880] [SPEAKER_00]: There was one year when he was a keynote speaker, and somebody was supposed to go pick him up at the airport or whatever, and they flaked.
[01:31:14.600 --> 01:31:18.960] [SPEAKER_00]: And you asked me to take care of it, and I went out there...
[01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:21.020] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I asked you to take care of the person who flaked.
[01:31:21.130 --> 01:31:22.710] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I asked you to do, take care of them.
[01:31:23.940 --> 01:31:25.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, there you go.
[01:31:25.130 --> 01:31:25.320] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:31:25.320 --> 01:31:31.210] [SPEAKER_00]: I got a New York City rental limo, and I went out to pick him up, and it totally blew his mind.
[01:31:32.640 --> 01:31:43.500] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I showed up at the airport with a cardboard sign made out of a pizza box that said, Jell-O, Emmanuel sent me to get you, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
[01:31:45.860 --> 01:31:52.120] [SPEAKER_00]: And he thought that was funny, and then he didn't even take me seriously when we got outside, and there's this limo sitting there.
[01:31:52.620 --> 01:31:53.710] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, come on.
[01:31:53.820 --> 01:31:55.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, yeah, yeah, good joke, good joke.
[01:31:55.740 --> 01:31:56.880] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, no, good joke.
[01:31:57.920 --> 01:32:03.700] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Jello Biafra learned a lot about the hacker community through HOPE, and I'm proud of that.
[01:32:04.050 --> 01:32:07.300] [SPEAKER_04]: And he really became a fan of the HOPE conference.
[01:32:07.480 --> 01:32:08.400] [SPEAKER_04]: That's why he kept coming back.
[01:32:09.650 --> 01:32:24.800] [SPEAKER_00]: It was great to meet him, too, and just have the chance to talk with him, because there's so much that he knows about, and things that he's experienced that are parallel in the music world, that have parallels in the hacker world.
[01:32:25.160 --> 01:32:35.800] [SPEAKER_00]: And bringing them together, and then the ability to see what's happened in the past and how it's reoccurring to the hacker community is really a powerful thing.
[01:32:35.800 --> 01:32:38.400] [SPEAKER_07]: The cyclical nature of things, totally.
[01:32:38.960 --> 01:32:39.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[01:32:40.050 --> 01:32:41.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's part of the magic.
[01:32:41.260 --> 01:32:44.320] [SPEAKER_00]: When you were talking about Google suppressing your emails.
[01:32:44.700 --> 01:32:45.200] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[01:32:45.820 --> 01:32:52.420] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you didn't know if it was people were getting bored, people were getting tired, or if something bad was happening.
[01:32:52.590 --> 01:33:02.540] [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of this photo I have hanging here next to my stereo at home of Abby Hoffman at WBAI doing his radio show.
[01:33:02.920 --> 01:33:03.480] Wow.
[01:33:04.880 --> 01:33:10.590] [SPEAKER_00]: And the first thing that came to my mind was, yeah, but that's a sign where you don't...
[01:33:10.590 --> 01:33:12.120] [SPEAKER_00]: That says don't give up.
[01:33:12.440 --> 01:33:12.700] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[01:33:12.900 --> 01:33:15.130] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you don't...
[01:33:15.130 --> 01:33:20.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if people aren't as interested anymore, you don't have to have the world's biggest con.
[01:33:21.080 --> 01:33:21.300] [SPEAKER_00]: No.
[01:33:21.420 --> 01:33:23.580] [SPEAKER_00]: You can have 10 people sitting under a tree.
[01:33:24.040 --> 01:33:28.080] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't know about that, but yeah, we don't have to have the biggest convention, absolutely.
[01:33:28.080 --> 01:33:34.130] [SPEAKER_04]: But we do have to cover our costs and, you know, do something that people will want to come back to.
[01:33:34.240 --> 01:33:35.960] [SPEAKER_04]: Gila, you got something to say?
[01:33:36.740 --> 01:33:37.090] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[01:33:37.160 --> 01:33:42.550] [SPEAKER_11]: Delchi, I just wanted to let you know that we have a commenter in the chat who wanted to make sure you know.
[01:33:43.140 --> 01:33:48.380] [SPEAKER_11]: They said they remember your talk at one of the HOPE conferences that they made it to, and you were great.
[01:33:48.380 --> 01:33:51.200] [SPEAKER_11]: So, I just wanted to pass that along to you.
[01:33:51.360 --> 01:33:54.170] [SPEAKER_04]: See, our HOPE conference can last forever.
[01:33:54.540 --> 01:33:59.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Somebody in this chat saw your talk 20 years ago, 22 years ago.
[01:34:00.280 --> 01:34:00.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:34:02.340 --> 01:34:19.460] [SPEAKER_00]: The thing is, what's happening now is just maybe either growing pains or societal pains, but the thing is, the base service that 2600 provides to the known world is always going to be necessary.
[01:34:20.800 --> 01:34:22.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we like to think so.
[01:34:22.320 --> 01:34:23.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, will it always be popular?
[01:34:23.280 --> 01:34:24.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Will it always be famous?
[01:34:25.080 --> 01:34:26.050] [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows?
[01:34:26.210 --> 01:34:28.520] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's always going to be necessary.
[01:34:28.780 --> 01:34:28.920] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:34:29.050 --> 01:34:34.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Because as any technology evolves, there are going to be people on the cutting edge of it.
[01:34:34.630 --> 01:34:36.940] [SPEAKER_00]: There are going to be people kind of in the middle of the road.
[01:34:36.940 --> 01:34:49.380] [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to get the people who are left behind, and everybody needs a place to go in a rational and, you know, reasonably friendly manner to say, hey, what the hell is this computer thing?
[01:34:49.740 --> 01:34:50.260] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:34:50.380 --> 01:34:52.130] [SPEAKER_00]: What is the thing I'm sticking in the wall?
[01:34:52.320 --> 01:34:56.320] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just don't have that outside of what you've been doing.
[01:34:56.590 --> 01:34:57.020] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:34:57.130 --> 01:35:03.240] [SPEAKER_08]: And especially in unusual ways and ways that things weren't intended, there are a lot more.
[01:35:03.240 --> 01:35:06.240] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think this is something we can be happy about.
[01:35:06.240 --> 01:35:24.580] [SPEAKER_08]: There are more off-ramps in the actual curriculums and science, the emphasis that we've seen on building things and using applied knowledge in academia, in early education.
[01:35:24.580 --> 01:35:30.240] [SPEAKER_08]: That's stuff that we think is vastly more supportive.
[01:35:30.240 --> 01:35:31.120] [SPEAKER_08]: There's more kits.
[01:35:31.360 --> 01:35:37.200] [SPEAKER_08]: There's more stuff with advanced circuits like microcontrollers.
[01:35:37.260 --> 01:35:44.200] [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of those things are finding their ways into science and other educational and academic environments.
[01:35:44.440 --> 01:35:51.340] [SPEAKER_08]: So the sense of knowledge being elusive in some ways has changed.
[01:35:51.340 --> 01:35:59.550] [SPEAKER_08]: And what I was getting at is there are more off-ramps early on for people to pursue very specific things.
[01:35:59.580 --> 01:36:00.880] [SPEAKER_08]: And that is fantastic.
[01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:01.840] [SPEAKER_08]: That's great.
[01:36:01.860 --> 01:36:08.130] [SPEAKER_08]: We want to be a part of that and support it in as many ways as we have going forward.
[01:36:08.240 --> 01:36:12.000] [SPEAKER_08]: And maybe there's new things that we can advocate and work on.
[01:36:12.000 --> 01:36:17.920] [SPEAKER_08]: And on the other side, I don't know when people are being de-educated.
[01:36:18.080 --> 01:36:29.210] [SPEAKER_08]: But the good part about, I think, just appreciating that is that there has been wider acceptance.
[01:36:29.420 --> 01:36:36.550] [SPEAKER_08]: When you say hacking, I think people know more about what's going on than they did when hope just started.
[01:36:37.320 --> 01:36:48.210] [SPEAKER_08]: And so I want to, I guess, account for that a little bit or adjust for that a little bit in how we're feeling about things.
[01:36:48.440 --> 01:36:55.020] [SPEAKER_08]: And just be on the lookout for new opportunities for us to be effective in advancing that spirit.
[01:36:56.460 --> 01:36:59.980] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because someone has to do it because it's not being done.
[01:37:01.980 --> 01:37:02.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Well said.
[01:37:02.820 --> 01:37:03.080] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[01:37:03.080 --> 01:37:18.120] [SPEAKER_00]: Back when I was first getting started, okay, back in the day when I got my hands on my first computer, okay, if you even said the word computer inside of a school, they would roll their eyes and say, oh, yeah, the billion-dollar thing they have in the hole in Washington,
[01:37:18.300 --> 01:37:18.660] [SPEAKER_00]: D.C.
[01:37:19.300 --> 01:37:24.240] [SPEAKER_00]: Or the kid next to you would be like, shut up, we're going to play Star Wars and knock you down.
[01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:27.130] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, they would point and laugh.
[01:37:27.420 --> 01:37:35.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, you got that one kid in school, and when the teacher blew up the computer, and they went and grabbed that kid out of whatever class, you know, those things are gone.
[01:37:36.280 --> 01:37:43.120] [SPEAKER_00]: They have kids now who are like five, six, seven years old who are building things with microcontrollers.
[01:37:43.710 --> 01:37:47.170] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the stuff they have available to them now.
[01:37:47.480 --> 01:37:53.040] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, anybody remember having to save money for weeks to get a box of 10 floppy disks?
[01:37:53.040 --> 01:37:55.000] [SPEAKER_00]: So, they were like 50 bucks.
[01:37:56.880 --> 01:37:59.820] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember floppy disks costs, but, yeah, they were expensive.
[01:37:59.820 --> 01:38:00.340] [SPEAKER_04]: I know that.
[01:38:00.900 --> 01:38:04.320] [SPEAKER_00]: And you bought them out of the back of a magazine?
[01:38:04.500 --> 01:38:08.130] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember when Computer Shopper used to be the size of the phone book?
[01:38:08.300 --> 01:38:09.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Boy, that was something.
[01:38:09.260 --> 01:38:10.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so it was huge.
[01:38:10.780 --> 01:38:14.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And you would spend hours going through it trying to find the right prices.
[01:38:14.620 --> 01:38:23.630] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you can go down to Walmart and get more RAM that fits in a microSD card inside of your phone than most of us had before we were 30.
[01:38:23.800 --> 01:38:24.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Except you don't have to go there.
[01:38:24.860 --> 01:38:26.900] [SPEAKER_04]: You just do it online and it shows up in your house.
[01:38:27.580 --> 01:38:29.020] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that too.
[01:38:30.460 --> 01:38:33.340] [SPEAKER_00]: There's good and bad in all of this.
[01:38:33.500 --> 01:38:35.420] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'd like to see, though?
[01:38:35.880 --> 01:38:43.820] [SPEAKER_00]: Is I'd like to see this information and this unity go back to where it was in the mid-80s.
[01:38:44.620 --> 01:38:53.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Where it was, let's bring people together, instead of where it is now, where it says, let's bring people together and make them hate each other.
[01:38:54.360 --> 01:38:55.280] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:59.050] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to go back, and I don't know if you remember this.
[01:38:59.160 --> 01:39:03.840] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember a poster I made called, This is Not the Future I Signed Up For?
[01:39:04.040 --> 01:39:05.210] [SPEAKER_04]: I know the phrase.
[01:39:05.210 --> 01:39:06.420] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember the poster.
[01:39:07.760 --> 01:39:09.080] [SPEAKER_00]: I made a poster.
[01:39:09.080 --> 01:39:13.670] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a rant that I wrote many, many, many, many years ago.
[01:39:13.670 --> 01:39:18.420] [SPEAKER_00]: It was back in 2000 because I saw some of the things that were happening.
[01:39:19.320 --> 01:39:22.960] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, this is not what it was supposed to be.
[01:39:23.460 --> 01:39:37.460] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I remember the days of jumping on IRC and talking to my friend in Finland or a guy in Ireland or asking somebody in Costa Rica, you know, hey, what's this, you know, DOS 2.0 thing, you know?
[01:39:37.740 --> 01:39:49.120] [SPEAKER_00]: And now, even though it's faster and easier, we're doing things like saying, well, you know, you're an idiot because you eat this cereal and you don't drink this soda.
[01:39:49.120 --> 01:39:52.360] [SPEAKER_00]: And I hate you because you didn't tip me.
[01:39:52.520 --> 01:39:53.960] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's a fake video.
[01:39:53.960 --> 01:39:56.360] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, people, stop.
[01:39:57.480 --> 01:40:02.260] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is meant to be a tool for unity, not separation and isolation.
[01:40:03.060 --> 01:40:06.210] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, tools always get misused at one point or another.
[01:40:07.240 --> 01:40:08.050] [SPEAKER_04]: It is true.
[01:40:08.260 --> 01:40:13.040] [SPEAKER_04]: I think, you know, we have to think back about the days you're talking about, but also just that way of thinking.
[01:40:13.040 --> 01:40:17.020] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was fresh then because the technology was fresh.
[01:40:17.440 --> 01:40:20.820] [SPEAKER_04]: So we were thinking, hey, this is an opportunity to do something different.
[01:40:21.040 --> 01:40:24.200] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have that same opportunity again in a different way.
[01:40:24.200 --> 01:40:35.320] [SPEAKER_04]: We just need to recognize it when it comes back and not go down the same path yet again of ignorance and suspicion and hatred that we seem to always fall into.
[01:40:36.000 --> 01:40:40.540] [SPEAKER_00]: We're almost to the point now where I suggest going backwards into the future.
[01:40:40.960 --> 01:40:41.520] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[01:40:41.780 --> 01:40:46.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And using the existing Internet to bring back BBSs.
[01:40:46.940 --> 01:40:48.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, a lot of people want to bring back BBSs.
[01:40:48.960 --> 01:40:49.420] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll tell you that.
[01:40:49.740 --> 01:40:51.210] [SPEAKER_04]: They were so magical.
[01:40:51.210 --> 01:40:58.020] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you're going to bring back BBSs, you have to limit the speed to 1,200 and only one caller per line.
[01:40:59.120 --> 01:41:00.940] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we might want to do better than that.
[01:41:01.090 --> 01:41:05.820] [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, forward into the past, which is actually funny.
[01:41:05.980 --> 01:41:08.210] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a slogan of the SCA.
[01:41:08.620 --> 01:41:24.920] [SPEAKER_00]: But it makes good sense because everything that's out there right now is just meant to suck up all your data, get all of your info, take your money, brainwash you into thinking Coke is better than Pepsi, you know, whatever.
[01:41:25.200 --> 01:41:31.620] [SPEAKER_00]: And instead of, you know, hey, I don't know how to put a resistor with this capacitor.
[01:41:32.050 --> 01:41:35.860] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, hey, how much baking soda do I put into a piece of crust?
[01:41:35.960 --> 01:41:36.200] [SPEAKER_00]: You know?
[01:41:36.200 --> 01:41:38.170] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that stuff is still out there.
[01:41:38.500 --> 01:41:40.550] [SPEAKER_00]: But there's so much militant stuff.
[01:41:40.740 --> 01:41:44.710] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been misused to the point where we need to start over again.
[01:41:45.240 --> 01:41:48.090] [SPEAKER_00]: And we need to go, hi, you know, my handle is X.
[01:41:48.210 --> 01:41:49.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And, oh, hi, my handle is Y.
[01:41:49.900 --> 01:41:51.760] [SPEAKER_00]: And, hey, let's trade some stuff.
[01:41:51.760 --> 01:41:55.700] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, I just wrote this really cool Python program.
[01:41:56.020 --> 01:42:07.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, just get back to the roots so that we can stop hating each other and, you know, maybe come together and, you know, make things better than worse.
[01:42:08.080 --> 01:42:20.080] [SPEAKER_08]: I really, I've been thinking, and just as you're talking about scale, and I think that a lot, so much has been about let's build and grow and make this network bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
[01:42:20.320 --> 01:42:23.710] [SPEAKER_08]: And these companies rose and rode that wave.
[01:42:24.020 --> 01:42:30.760] [SPEAKER_08]: They were right there to get in on the rush and get bigger and bigger and bigger and more dominant.
[01:42:31.080 --> 01:42:43.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And now they're just continuing to do, like, M&A and consolidation and seeing their extent become whatever as big and as indelible as possible.
[01:42:43.200 --> 01:42:59.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And the funny part is a lot of the computing and a lot of the storage is getting, and even now algorithmic stuff or, I guess, machine learning, these things can exist outside of a cloud.
[01:42:59.200 --> 01:43:04.000] [SPEAKER_08]: So I'm thinking of doing more of the things that are more decentralized.
[01:43:04.400 --> 01:43:09.980] [SPEAKER_08]: That's had been kind of loaded in the past, but it's worked always in the past.
[01:43:09.980 --> 01:43:10.900] [SPEAKER_08]: It's been disruptive.
[01:43:10.900 --> 01:43:12.630] [SPEAKER_08]: It's shut down industries.
[01:43:13.020 --> 01:43:24.480] [SPEAKER_08]: And maybe I'm hoping the same thing, and I see it in things like the federated social media, running machines on a smaller scale, more locally.
[01:43:24.500 --> 01:43:29.280] [SPEAKER_08]: There's also fog computing instead of cloud computing.
[01:43:29.400 --> 01:43:32.670] [SPEAKER_08]: This is industry jargon on the enterprise level.
[01:43:32.670 --> 01:43:47.820] [SPEAKER_08]: But you can look at that and say, like, well, if industry's able to do less with these centralized models, and they're that big, and they're saying that, well, maybe, like, the answer is just, like, improving the mesh network in our backyard and, like,
[01:43:48.210 --> 01:43:54.300] [SPEAKER_08]: automating our house a little better, helping your neighbor automate theirs so they have more ability.
[01:43:54.300 --> 01:44:03.300] [SPEAKER_08]: Whatever it is, like, there is an answer to this, and it certainly isn't just, like, finding disillusion in it.
[01:44:03.460 --> 01:44:07.460] [SPEAKER_08]: We should share, even if it's hard, and get past all of it.
[01:44:08.900 --> 01:44:12.960] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be hard because we've got a lot of things to undo.
[01:44:13.940 --> 01:44:17.630] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of things that need to be undone and fixed.
[01:44:18.630 --> 01:44:20.380] [SPEAKER_00]: There's been a lot of gatekeeping.
[01:44:21.040 --> 01:44:28.980] [SPEAKER_00]: There's been a lot of, you know, are you this, or are you that, or are you a member of this, or are you doing that?
[01:44:29.630 --> 01:44:31.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know this person?
[01:44:31.280 --> 01:44:32.280] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know that person?
[01:44:32.760 --> 01:44:38.380] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, these people didn't even know themselves when they were doing this.
[01:44:38.540 --> 01:44:48.420] [SPEAKER_08]: We could easily get into, like, we really try to avoid that because that itself feeds more personal drama and stuff like that.
[01:44:48.440 --> 01:44:57.660] [SPEAKER_08]: And, like, it's just that can become a self-fulfilling, like, fountain of drama, as I believe Johannes has referred to American society before.
[01:44:57.940 --> 01:45:06.360] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's true, what you're noticing, but dwelling on it, we don't want to fuel more of it.
[01:45:07.120 --> 01:45:08.670] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about dwelling on it.
[01:45:08.670 --> 01:45:11.260] [SPEAKER_00]: It's learning from it and not replicating it.
[01:45:11.300 --> 01:45:14.090] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I agree with you, like, but that's what I mean when I say, like, trade show.
[01:45:14.090 --> 01:45:16.740] [SPEAKER_08]: I think there's, like, definitely circuits...
[01:45:16.740 --> 01:45:32.340] [SPEAKER_08]: There is a circuit of speaking and engaging in some of this stuff, and people that just live for moving from one thing to the next, whether it's a campaign or something that is tearing things down.
[01:45:32.500 --> 01:45:35.170] [SPEAKER_08]: And we want to be with those building it up.
[01:45:36.200 --> 01:45:36.800] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[01:45:37.000 --> 01:45:39.940] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times that means building something new.
[01:45:41.660 --> 01:45:42.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it can.
[01:45:42.620 --> 01:45:44.670] [SPEAKER_04]: It can also mean making something old better.
[01:45:45.540 --> 01:45:49.090] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember that great quote, you know, how do you feel about Western civilization?
[01:45:49.420 --> 01:45:51.160] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, it would be a great idea.
[01:45:52.880 --> 01:45:54.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, let's try something new.
[01:45:54.820 --> 01:45:56.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Delta, it's been great talking to you again.
[01:45:57.020 --> 01:45:59.000] [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to open up the phone lines to somebody else.
[01:45:59.740 --> 01:46:04.050] [SPEAKER_04]: But please keep on writing and let us know what you're up to.
[01:46:04.360 --> 01:46:05.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds fascinating.
[01:46:05.240 --> 01:46:05.880] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I will do.
[01:46:06.260 --> 01:46:06.920] [SPEAKER_00]: Keep publishing.
[01:46:07.260 --> 01:46:07.550] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:46:07.630 --> 01:46:08.000] [SPEAKER_04]: Be well.
[01:46:08.880 --> 01:46:09.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And you as well.
[01:46:11.220 --> 01:46:12.400] [SPEAKER_04]: Our good friend, Delchi.
[01:46:13.130 --> 01:46:16.170] [SPEAKER_04]: And catch his article in the current 2600, the winter issue.
[01:46:16.300 --> 01:46:18.400] [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, the winter issue is now out.
[01:46:18.520 --> 01:46:19.360] [SPEAKER_04]: We've caught up finally.
[01:46:19.580 --> 01:46:24.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Since COVID, issues have been delayed by as much as three months.
[01:46:24.020 --> 01:46:25.700] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've been gradually making up that time.
[01:46:25.820 --> 01:46:30.400] [SPEAKER_04]: And with the winter issue, it's finally at the stage where we can print the season on the cover again.
[01:46:30.800 --> 01:46:39.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Because if you print the season and your magazine is on a story shelf, and that season is no longer there, then they take it off the store shelf.
[01:46:39.740 --> 01:46:42.130] [SPEAKER_04]: So you can't have the winter issue out in the spring.
[01:46:42.720 --> 01:46:46.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Even if it's a couple of weeks, they tend to throw them out.
[01:46:46.360 --> 01:46:47.170] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's not good for us.
[01:46:47.280 --> 01:46:48.550] [SPEAKER_04]: So we had to wait.
[01:46:48.860 --> 01:46:53.500] [SPEAKER_04]: We shaved about a week or so off every issue since, I believe, summer 2020.
[01:46:53.500 --> 01:46:55.480] [SPEAKER_04]: But we finally made it.
[01:46:55.710 --> 01:46:56.700] [SPEAKER_04]: We finally made it.
[01:46:57.500 --> 01:46:58.040] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:46:58.200 --> 01:47:01.580] [SPEAKER_08]: And that has led to a compressed schedule.
[01:47:01.580 --> 01:47:06.460] [SPEAKER_08]: And it was really a tall order for everyone behind the scenes.
[01:47:06.500 --> 01:47:14.170] [SPEAKER_08]: So we're really thankful for all the efforts to meet that challenge and adjust.
[01:47:14.520 --> 01:47:18.420] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, this was basically dealing with the realities of retail.
[01:47:18.420 --> 01:47:21.500] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's something we don't really get to talk about.
[01:47:21.500 --> 01:47:24.400] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not a part of what we share about.
[01:47:24.550 --> 01:47:30.380] [SPEAKER_08]: But operationally, those things, they're a big deal.
[01:47:30.540 --> 01:47:41.740] [SPEAKER_08]: And we work very hard to stay on top of it and make sure that we aren't falling into pitfalls and getting tangled up.
[01:47:42.040 --> 01:47:47.620] [SPEAKER_08]: And we publish from the best position we can as a publisher.
[01:47:47.920 --> 01:47:48.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:47:48.440 --> 01:47:50.000] [SPEAKER_04]: You say the realities of retail.
[01:47:50.000 --> 01:47:52.580] [SPEAKER_04]: And those realities never are good realities.
[01:47:52.960 --> 01:47:57.320] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, 2600 does quite well, actually, in the retail market.
[01:47:57.710 --> 01:48:01.800] [SPEAKER_04]: We have a great reputation with distributors.
[01:48:02.210 --> 01:48:04.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Our online store is one of the highest rated ones.
[01:48:04.860 --> 01:48:10.320] [SPEAKER_04]: With all that, it still is a constant challenge just to stay alive.
[01:48:10.960 --> 01:48:17.320] [SPEAKER_04]: I can imagine what it's like for people that are organizations that are much more on a shoestring.
[01:48:18.060 --> 01:48:21.860] [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, it's not something to take lightly.
[01:48:22.170 --> 01:48:23.880] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not for the faint of heart, for sure.
[01:48:25.140 --> 01:48:28.620] [SPEAKER_04]: But we're determined to keep plugging away and keep trying.
[01:48:28.710 --> 01:48:29.550] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have one more phone call?
[01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:31.820] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you want to take that now?
[01:48:31.980 --> 01:48:32.840] [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't we take that now?
[01:48:33.320 --> 01:48:34.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Are they on?
[01:48:34.160 --> 01:48:34.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:48:35.080 --> 01:48:35.840] [SPEAKER_04]: And good evening.
[01:48:36.000 --> 01:48:36.740] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[01:48:36.840 --> 01:48:37.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[01:48:38.050 --> 01:48:38.340] [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[01:48:38.500 --> 01:48:38.700] [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[01:48:39.050 --> 01:48:40.360] [SPEAKER_15]: We're trying to make this brief as I can.
[01:48:40.500 --> 01:48:40.660] [SPEAKER_15]: Sure.
[01:48:40.660 --> 01:48:41.120] [SPEAKER_15]: Sidepocket.
[01:48:41.380 --> 01:48:44.460] [SPEAKER_15]: I'm calling from the lovely hackerspace known as Hack Manhattan.
[01:48:45.840 --> 01:48:56.120] [SPEAKER_15]: Here's my possibility, because I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine that is kind of absurd, but it also might have some, like, real ramifications, so I thought you'd maybe play along with me here.
[01:48:56.420 --> 01:49:14.460] [SPEAKER_15]: That conversation basically broke down to all the power play moves that Apple has been doing recently, such as locking certain storefronts out and battling for their lightning cables and such, and what they proposed, because they were a giant business Apple fan,
[01:49:14.460 --> 01:49:29.820] [SPEAKER_15]: that somehow, in the near future, wouldn't it be out of the realm of possibility to them that Apple would, and I quote, create its own Internet, meaning it has its own direct protocols and everything, and everything would route through Apple rather than the general Internet at large.
[01:49:29.960 --> 01:49:39.840] [SPEAKER_15]: So my postulate is, how dumb is this idea if it is, and if they actually did this, what would be all the ramifications you could think of that would come from this?
[01:49:39.840 --> 01:49:42.210] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's a fascinating idea.
[01:49:42.520 --> 01:49:48.170] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, to answer it, I would say just look at people who buy into Apple in general.
[01:49:48.320 --> 01:49:51.840] [SPEAKER_04]: Look how, you know, if someone has an iPhone, ask them how many times they've bought an iPhone.
[01:49:52.170 --> 01:49:54.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Usually it's about, it's about at least five.
[01:49:55.620 --> 01:49:59.880] [SPEAKER_04]: They constantly, and it's not, you know, to put them down, it's just, it's a fact.
[01:50:00.090 --> 01:50:02.740] [SPEAKER_04]: You'll find it in any large company with a following.
[01:50:03.200 --> 01:50:08.090] [SPEAKER_04]: They will keep buying the latest revision and upgrading when told it's time to upgrade.
[01:50:08.090 --> 01:50:12.340] [SPEAKER_04]: So I could see this working for them.
[01:50:12.620 --> 01:50:19.210] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a good development, I don't think, because it certainly doesn't go towards any kind of connection of people.
[01:50:19.420 --> 01:50:23.620] [SPEAKER_04]: It goes towards basically isolating Apple users from everybody else.
[01:50:23.630 --> 01:50:31.630] [SPEAKER_04]: But I can see Apple users maybe embracing that if it means what they consider to be a better experience.
[01:50:31.630 --> 01:50:37.920] [SPEAKER_08]: I think they need a bunch of gateways to get outside of their own sphere, if that's even desirable.
[01:50:38.210 --> 01:50:46.860] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't, I don't know, you should ask someone you love that has an Apple product, if they would enjoy having access outside their Apple sphere.
[01:50:48.780 --> 01:50:58.780] [SPEAKER_15]: Because, uh, there's some of my quick arguments and their counter arguments was that I feel that, you know, they were trying to use the example of like the Xbox live sort of an ecosystem.
[01:50:58.800 --> 01:51:04.620] [SPEAKER_15]: But the thing is, is that most of our modern ecosystems still run through all the base components of the Internet.
[01:51:04.740 --> 01:51:25.480] [SPEAKER_08]: So to me, it would be kind of redundant that, yeah, my reaction is sounds a little bit like like what BlackBerry was doing with their own data, like running, um, a different set of, um, uh, service services on top of, for their encrypted and other, um,
[01:51:25.740 --> 01:51:27.090] [SPEAKER_08]: push email services and stuff.
[01:51:27.210 --> 01:51:29.550] [SPEAKER_08]: But this idea sounds totally different.
[01:51:29.630 --> 01:51:30.880] [SPEAKER_08]: I wouldn't be surprised.
[01:51:31.020 --> 01:51:32.240] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if it is good or bad.
[01:51:32.320 --> 01:51:51.660] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I, it probably is bad for, for the, everyone else, because as far as protocols and standardization and interoperability, because they're pulling a huge amount of users off of, um, uh, networks that would ordinarily interact with that traffic and,
[01:51:51.780 --> 01:51:54.380] [SPEAKER_08]: and, um, be able to manage it.
[01:51:54.500 --> 01:52:09.300] [SPEAKER_08]: And, and so to that end, I think it would just, um, it would be similar to the kind of, you would have issues similar to the things we talk about when we're talking about like Gmail users, not being reachable and so forth.
[01:52:09.760 --> 01:52:10.420] [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead, Rob.
[01:52:11.660 --> 01:52:12.020] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:52:12.200 --> 01:52:24.280] [SPEAKER_13]: Well, the big, the big, uh, thing I can compare this to is the old days of like Prodigy and CompuServe and America Online and, uh, Genie and things like that, where you had this walled garden siloed service.
[01:52:24.670 --> 01:52:32.860] [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, you know, those sorts of things kind of fell by the wayside because people realized as, as the Internet boom of the nineties happened, Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could just all talk to each other?
[01:52:33.300 --> 01:52:42.620] [SPEAKER_13]: And even the advertisers who were putting up the money for the whole thing were like, wouldn't it be great if we could show our crap to everybody instead of just this little exclusive club of paying customers on this one thing.
[01:52:43.300 --> 01:52:49.880] [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, if Apple wants to reinvent America Online, I, I think, uh, I think that's going to be a long road for them.
[01:52:50.780 --> 01:53:06.620] [SPEAKER_15]: I would like to quickly add that one, uh, problem that I could see, cause this could go on forever and I don't mean it to, but it's that, uh, one of the arguments that used to drive me crazy back in the day, uh, was people claiming that, uh, Macintosh computers had no viruses compared to windows,
[01:53:06.760 --> 01:53:07.620] [SPEAKER_15]: windows, even Linux.
[01:53:07.820 --> 01:53:13.590] [SPEAKER_15]: And my argument was simply because Macs weren't popular and that Apple came up with a product that was popular.
[01:53:13.800 --> 01:53:17.320] [SPEAKER_15]: They would be hammered, if not even more than their competitors.
[01:53:17.940 --> 01:53:19.120] [SPEAKER_15]: And then they made the iPhone.
[01:53:19.120 --> 01:53:21.900] [SPEAKER_15]: And we've seen how much Apple continues to struggle with that.
[01:53:22.040 --> 01:53:38.240] [SPEAKER_15]: I can imagine that like other examples in the past, if Apple decided to create their own Internet and brag about how secure and private it is, uh, every person out there, uh, who is a maniac like myself would go challenge accepted and there'd be very interesting results.
[01:53:38.740 --> 01:53:43.900] [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, my second thing about that real quick is also, uh, what would we imagine?
[01:53:44.170 --> 01:53:54.900] [SPEAKER_15]: Cause like the United States likes a lot of deregulations, unfortunately, but places like potentially the EU and other places, like, I don't know of any, I'm really bad with laws.
[01:53:55.080 --> 01:54:04.670] [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know any existing laws, but I can imagine that a lot of countries and organizations would be basically giving birth to a cow, freaking out about this and being angry with possible.
[01:54:04.920 --> 01:54:09.260] [SPEAKER_15]: Even I don't even know if there's any legal retaliation, but I imagine that would attempt to happen.
[01:54:09.580 --> 01:54:11.500] [SPEAKER_15]: So that's another thing I could see happening.
[01:54:12.670 --> 01:54:13.080] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:54:13.240 --> 01:54:14.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds, sounds plausible.
[01:54:14.520 --> 01:54:20.880] [SPEAKER_04]: I wish Alex were here to, to address that point, but, uh, but, uh, something to think about and, um, thanks for sharing it.
[01:54:21.520 --> 01:54:21.670] [SPEAKER_15]: Yep.
[01:54:21.820 --> 01:54:22.090] [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[01:54:22.240 --> 01:54:22.800] [SPEAKER_15]: Happy new year.
[01:54:22.880 --> 01:54:23.440] [SPEAKER_15]: Hack the planet.
[01:54:23.700 --> 01:54:24.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[01:54:24.040 --> 01:54:24.660] [SPEAKER_04]: All that stuff.
[01:54:24.780 --> 01:54:25.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[01:54:25.120 --> 01:54:25.840] [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for listening.
[01:54:26.090 --> 01:54:27.590] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's going to do it for us.
[01:54:28.460 --> 01:54:31.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Full hour has gone by and we're tired and cranky.
[01:54:32.200 --> 01:54:35.900] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but if you want to write to us, uh, please do so.
[01:54:36.090 --> 01:54:38.260] [SPEAKER_04]: oth@2600.com.
[01:54:38.380 --> 01:54:39.160] [SPEAKER_04]: We'd love to hear from you.
[01:54:39.620 --> 01:54:43.000] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, if you, um, do plan on going to hope, please register.
[01:54:43.240 --> 01:54:46.980] [SPEAKER_04]: It would definitely help us, uh, plan for the, the conference ahead, the hope.net.
[01:54:47.170 --> 01:54:52.340] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, you'll see all the links there and, uh, spread the word too, because apparently we can't do it efficiently.
[01:54:52.660 --> 01:55:00.300] [SPEAKER_04]: It's figured out exactly how to, uh, uh, get through all the, um, um, dead ends and speed bumps that have been put on our way.
[01:55:00.400 --> 01:55:02.520] [SPEAKER_08]: And we booked such a huge tree.
[01:55:04.520 --> 01:55:05.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:55:05.380 --> 01:55:05.480] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:55:05.590 --> 01:55:05.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[01:55:06.630 --> 01:55:07.660] [SPEAKER_04]: Any final words?
[01:55:09.240 --> 01:55:17.440] [SPEAKER_13]: Um, just that I'm looking, uh, uh, a small DuckDuckGo search led to an article on Macworld about the complete list of Mac viruses, malware, and Trojans.
[01:55:17.710 --> 01:55:18.940] [SPEAKER_13]: And it's pretty extensive actually.
[01:55:21.490 --> 01:55:22.020] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:55:22.380 --> 01:55:22.800] [SPEAKER_09]: Gila, go ahead.
[01:55:23.780 --> 01:55:42.860] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, whitelist as many hope in 2600 related email addresses as you possibly can, if you're a Gmail user and talk to your friends, talk to your enemies, talk to people, you know, about signing up, getting tickets, going to hope, submitting for talks and stuff.
[01:55:43.380 --> 01:55:44.280] [SPEAKER_11]: Talk to people.
[01:55:44.520 --> 01:55:45.320] [SPEAKER_11]: This is what I'm saying.
[01:55:45.590 --> 01:55:46.380] [SPEAKER_11]: Talk to people.
[01:55:46.590 --> 01:55:52.460] [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's time to bring back a stealthily living, leaving leaflets and stickers and things, places to get info out there.
[01:55:52.980 --> 01:55:54.210] [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, we need a street team.
[01:55:54.320 --> 01:55:55.240] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to be annoying.
[01:55:56.440 --> 01:55:56.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[01:55:56.980 --> 01:55:58.620] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm too late for that, but okay.
[01:55:58.620 --> 01:55:58.920] [SPEAKER_04]: Fine.
[01:55:59.120 --> 01:56:02.400] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to, you know, be annoying in new ways.
[01:56:02.550 --> 01:56:03.090] [SPEAKER_04]: How about that?
[01:56:03.920 --> 01:56:05.940] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah, spreading the word is good.
[01:56:06.080 --> 01:56:12.420] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, you know, if, if, if you're on our mailing list and you want to get off our mailing list, let us know and we'll take you off the mailing list.
[01:56:12.540 --> 01:56:18.020] [SPEAKER_04]: If, if the automated commands don't work, uh, that's just in case we are annoying anybody, but I don't think we are.
[01:56:18.480 --> 01:56:39.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, it's just, it's annoying to me when I see the hard work of volunteers be labeled in a certain way by a computer that's not even human and, uh, won't even answer questions as to why it's, um, and I've just triggered the, uh, personal assistant in the other room whose name is computer.
[01:56:39.620 --> 01:56:41.240] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, so this is a good time to sign off.
[01:56:41.740 --> 01:56:43.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, any final word, Kyle?
[01:56:44.920 --> 01:56:51.120] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, um, just certainly, uh, we, we want to hear what people, uh, have to say.
[01:56:51.120 --> 01:56:55.130] [SPEAKER_08]: Please write oth@2600.com.
[01:56:55.860 --> 01:57:05.000] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, yeah, it's, it's that entity, that company, no doubt has a few hackers that have helped build it.
[01:57:05.050 --> 01:57:13.460] [SPEAKER_08]: And we would like at least the credit enough to talk about hacker stuff and gather hackers, uh, as a thank you.
[01:57:13.820 --> 01:57:18.300] [SPEAKER_08]: So those companies, in my view, owe us dearly.
[01:57:19.400 --> 01:57:30.660] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, those of you, by the way, who, uh, might've tuned in, not having any idea what hope is all about, uh, stay on this channel, Channel2600, and look in the, um, uh, sections for all the previous conferences.
[01:57:31.080 --> 01:57:34.080] [SPEAKER_04]: Every video recorded can be found on this channel.
[01:57:34.280 --> 01:57:44.040] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, if you click on a video of your choice, whether it's 1994 or 2022 or all the years in between, you'll get a taste of what hope was all about.
[01:57:44.210 --> 01:57:48.540] [SPEAKER_04]: And if that's something that, uh, you want to preserve, consider coming to the next one, hope.net.
[01:57:49.280 --> 01:57:49.820] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[01:57:49.900 --> 01:57:52.200] [SPEAKER_04]: We will see you again next week.
[01:57:52.320 --> 01:57:52.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.