[00:00.000 --> 00:04.140] [SPEAKER_00]: Around the corner, this month can end.
[00:04.540 --> 00:07.860] [SPEAKER_00]: And within a blink of an eye, we won't realize it.
[00:07.980 --> 00:09.280] [SPEAKER_00]: We will realize it.
[00:09.380 --> 00:11.400] [SPEAKER_00]: You just won't realize where the time went.
[00:12.020 --> 00:17.140] [SPEAKER_00]: 212-209-2950 or go to gift to WBAI.org online.
[00:17.500 --> 00:18.940] [SPEAKER_00]: And enough of me talking.
[00:18.940 --> 00:23.640] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go into the next program, which happens to be Off The Hook, coming up.
[00:23.680 --> 00:25.400] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one minute past 7 p.m.
[00:50.430 --> 00:52.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Someone should really get that.
[00:52.470 --> 00:59.330] [SPEAKER_04]: You are listening to radio station WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:59.690 --> 01:03.050] [SPEAKER_04]: The time is just about a minute past 7 p.m.
[01:03.470 --> 01:06.810] [SPEAKER_04]: It's time for another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
[01:24.060 --> 01:26.040] [SPEAKER_08]: We couldn't get much worse.
[01:26.760 --> 01:28.600] [SPEAKER_08]: But if they could, they would.
[01:28.880 --> 01:29.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Bum, diddly-bump.
[01:29.840 --> 01:31.540] [SPEAKER_08]: But the best is back for worst.
[01:32.160 --> 01:34.020] [SPEAKER_08]: I hope that's understood.
[01:34.280 --> 01:35.080] [SPEAKER_08]: Bum, diddly-bump!
[01:54.990 --> 01:58.730] [SPEAKER_04]: A very, very good evening to you.
[02:00.130 --> 02:02.110] [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:02.950 --> 02:03.990] [SPEAKER_04]: Rob T. Firefly here with you.
[02:04.450 --> 02:06.750] [SPEAKER_04]: And I am joined here by Gila.
[02:06.990 --> 02:07.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[02:08.690 --> 02:09.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[02:09.870 --> 02:13.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And out there in Skype-land, we are joined by Alex.
[02:14.150 --> 02:15.110] [SPEAKER_03]: You are indeed.
[02:15.110 --> 02:16.130] [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening, everybody.
[02:16.730 --> 02:19.850] [SPEAKER_04]: And we should have Emmanuel and Kyle.
[02:20.050 --> 02:20.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Guys, are you out there?
[02:22.290 --> 02:23.610] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we're out here.
[02:23.870 --> 02:24.810] [SPEAKER_05]: Kyle, are we out here?
[02:25.210 --> 02:26.090] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, sort of.
[02:26.590 --> 02:33.230] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we're currently traveling on I-287 somewhere in New Jersey.
[02:34.490 --> 02:36.850] [SPEAKER_05]: We're actually returning from seeing the eclipse.
[02:37.290 --> 02:38.890] [SPEAKER_05]: We got delayed quite a bit.
[02:40.170 --> 02:45.190] [SPEAKER_05]: Just moving all around the country and exploring and seeing and listening.
[02:45.310 --> 02:46.350] [SPEAKER_05]: Listening to a lot of radio.
[02:47.170 --> 02:47.610] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll tell you,
[02:50.830 --> 02:52.710] [SPEAKER_05]: damn lucky to have a station like WBAI.
[02:53.310 --> 02:58.370] [SPEAKER_05]: Because there are so few outlets for what I perceive as sanity out there.
[02:58.410 --> 03:00.170] [SPEAKER_05]: And when you find them, it's priceless.
[03:00.430 --> 03:08.270] [SPEAKER_05]: But, boy, I'm ready to talk more about the state of radio in this country as well as anything else.
[03:08.370 --> 03:10.890] [SPEAKER_05]: But mostly, happy to take contact again.
[03:10.890 --> 03:11.330] [SPEAKER_05]: It's been a while.
[03:11.990 --> 03:12.590] [SPEAKER_04]: It has.
[03:12.670 --> 03:13.190] [SPEAKER_04]: It's been a while.
[03:13.390 --> 03:15.450] [SPEAKER_04]: You've been running around doing all sorts of exciting things.
[03:15.450 --> 03:19.530] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've been here... the eclipse actually reached here, too.
[03:19.710 --> 03:22.490] [SPEAKER_04]: So we got to see that as well, to a degree.
[03:22.950 --> 03:23.690] [SPEAKER_01]: We certainly did.
[03:25.550 --> 03:36.050] [SPEAKER_01]: People on rooftops, certainly all over New York City, looked over, saw a couple construction workers on the building next to my office building who had taken a break to watch the eclipse.
[03:36.230 --> 03:36.870] [SPEAKER_01]: It was fantastic.
[03:39.050 --> 03:39.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Indeed.
[03:39.890 --> 03:41.970] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you see the eclipse?
[03:45.110 --> 03:46.750] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that a question for me?
[03:46.850 --> 03:47.910] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a little garbled there.
[03:48.190 --> 03:48.870] [SPEAKER_05]: I think so.
[03:48.910 --> 03:49.270] [SPEAKER_05]: It was out.
[03:49.510 --> 03:50.070] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[03:52.030 --> 03:53.430] [SPEAKER_03]: I did see the eclipse.
[03:53.430 --> 03:59.390] [SPEAKER_03]: I was actually out kayaking on a lake, as it happened, in Pennsylvania.
[03:59.590 --> 04:07.110] [SPEAKER_03]: It was pretty cloudy, but still really extraordinary to see everything get really dark.
[04:07.450 --> 04:13.250] [SPEAKER_03]: I was very glad that I wore a coat when I went out kayaking, because when I left, it was pretty warm.
[04:13.250 --> 04:15.870] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it will get cold if it gets dark.
[04:16.230 --> 04:18.570] [SPEAKER_03]: And lo and behold, it did get cold.
[04:19.050 --> 04:25.310] [SPEAKER_03]: But everything around the lake started to act very nocturnally when it got cold and dark.
[04:25.490 --> 04:27.590] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was really quite an experience.
[04:27.590 --> 04:28.190] [SPEAKER_03]: It was very cool.
[04:29.190 --> 04:34.670] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we actually went all the way out to Texas, in the Austin area.
[04:34.890 --> 04:36.710] [SPEAKER_05]: But then it turned out to be rather cloudy.
[04:37.070 --> 04:38.310] [SPEAKER_05]: So we drove out to...
[04:44.020 --> 04:45.800] [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel, you're kind of cutting in and out a little.
[04:45.800 --> 04:46.440] [SPEAKER_04]: So...
[04:46.440 --> 04:49.180] [SPEAKER_05]: There were four minutes of...
[04:51.640 --> 04:54.440] [SPEAKER_05]: And we really got quite a show.
[04:54.800 --> 04:56.380] [SPEAKER_05]: Didn't get the entire experience.
[04:56.820 --> 04:58.620] [SPEAKER_05]: The sun was behind clouds.
[04:59.480 --> 05:01.380] [SPEAKER_05]: Then it emerged for a second.
[05:01.480 --> 05:02.140] [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody cheered.
[05:02.500 --> 05:03.640] [SPEAKER_05]: That happened four times.
[05:03.860 --> 05:05.080] [SPEAKER_05]: It got really, really dark.
[05:05.740 --> 05:08.220] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'd say, all in all, it was...
[05:12.790 --> 05:17.230] [SPEAKER_04]: I think Emmanuel's getting eclipsed a bit on this call that we're doing.
[05:17.650 --> 05:20.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just entertained by where he's dropping out.
[05:20.410 --> 05:22.270] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we drove to...
[05:22.270 --> 05:22.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Silence.
[05:23.430 --> 05:25.050] [SPEAKER_01]: It was really...
[05:25.050 --> 05:25.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Silence.
[05:26.370 --> 05:27.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[05:27.150 --> 05:28.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Technical difficulties are never funny.
[05:28.830 --> 05:30.650] [SPEAKER_01]: But they are happening at funny times right now.
[05:30.930 --> 05:33.690] [SPEAKER_04]: We can go back into this afterward and fill it in like a mad lib.
[05:34.930 --> 05:35.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel, go ahead.
[05:35.710 --> 05:37.410] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll give you a quick version, if you can.
[05:38.070 --> 05:40.270] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we drove out to Texas and we saw the damn eclipse.
[05:40.470 --> 05:41.230] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was worth it.
[05:41.310 --> 05:41.670] [SPEAKER_05]: It was cloudy.
[05:41.850 --> 05:44.310] [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, we do it again in 50 years.
[05:45.510 --> 05:46.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for the clarification.
[05:46.630 --> 05:47.690] [SPEAKER_01]: We appreciate that.
[05:49.390 --> 05:49.770] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[05:51.230 --> 05:52.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, where are you?
[05:52.430 --> 05:56.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it seems to us over camera here that you are somewhere unfamiliar.
[05:57.990 --> 05:59.510] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I'm in a new location.
[06:00.430 --> 06:01.590] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in the country.
[06:01.590 --> 06:04.790] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we're all in the country, as far as I can tell.
[06:05.210 --> 06:07.410] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm in Boston tonight, actually.
[06:07.590 --> 06:10.770] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't been here in this city in about 10 years.
[06:10.770 --> 06:17.130] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm here for a conference tomorrow, the National Association of Legal Professionals.
[06:17.390 --> 06:30.430] [SPEAKER_03]: And I get to speak on a panel about a very exciting topic of artificial intelligence in the legal profession and using AI and business contacts, all that fun stuff.
[06:32.850 --> 06:36.490] [SPEAKER_04]: So they're trumpeting the advantages of Spicy Autocomplete.
[06:37.950 --> 06:39.010] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, pretty much.
[06:39.230 --> 06:39.870] [SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[06:39.970 --> 06:46.890] [SPEAKER_03]: I will say, though, since we do like to talk about trains on this, I took Amtrak from the new Penn Station, from the Moynihan Penn Station.
[06:47.610 --> 06:55.930] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say, you know, for every one time that I take the train north, I probably take it south down to D.C., probably about 50 or 100 times.
[06:55.930 --> 07:00.570] [SPEAKER_03]: And it is such a pleasant way to travel to Boston on the train.
[07:00.790 --> 07:03.650] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you go along the water for a very long way.
[07:03.850 --> 07:07.930] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really quite a beautiful journey, I think, up to Boston.
[07:08.110 --> 07:12.350] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you get to Boston and you realize, you know, this isn't really a real...
[07:12.350 --> 07:18.070] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, for me, in my opinion, Boston's a nice city, but it's just too clean.
[07:18.070 --> 07:23.450] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I need more dirt and grit around me in order to feel like I'm really in an urban environment.
[07:26.050 --> 07:28.890] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, come back to New York where we have plenty of that for you.
[07:29.750 --> 07:31.050] [SPEAKER_05]: Kyle and I were in D.C.
[07:31.170 --> 07:32.970] [SPEAKER_05]: yesterday, just to complete the story.
[07:33.590 --> 07:38.810] [SPEAKER_05]: And we actually were present at the House of Representatives and the Senate.
[07:40.030 --> 07:53.150] [SPEAKER_05]: It was quite a day, because in order to be part of the gallery of either of those legislative bodies, you have to get a pass from either your representative or your senator, depending on which one you're going to.
[07:53.370 --> 08:04.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And what Kyle and I did was we went to Senate office buildings and House office buildings and visited the offices of our respective representatives and senators.
[08:04.830 --> 08:05.450] [SPEAKER_05]: Kyle's from Washington.
[08:05.650 --> 08:06.230] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm from New York.
[08:06.810 --> 08:08.650] [SPEAKER_05]: And every door was unlocked.
[08:08.650 --> 08:13.070] [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, we had to go through security a whole bunch of times for every building we went into.
[08:13.090 --> 08:14.010] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it was six times.
[08:15.610 --> 08:19.590] [SPEAKER_05]: And when we went to the offices, everyone was very happy to see us.
[08:19.770 --> 08:21.610] [SPEAKER_05]: And we had no trouble getting passes.
[08:21.970 --> 08:25.430] [SPEAKER_05]: And those passes allowed us to get into the gallery.
[08:26.470 --> 08:28.090] [SPEAKER_05]: So I suggested it.
[08:28.130 --> 08:29.470] [SPEAKER_05]: It's really kind of interesting.
[08:29.590 --> 08:30.790] [SPEAKER_05]: It can be boring, obviously.
[08:31.710 --> 08:37.830] [SPEAKER_05]: What they don't tell you, especially the House of Representatives, is how few people are on the floor.
[08:38.310 --> 08:39.590] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't see that on C-SPAN.
[08:39.610 --> 08:40.930] [SPEAKER_05]: You only see the people who are talking.
[08:41.150 --> 08:42.510] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't see who's not there.
[08:42.510 --> 08:44.230] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't see who's not paying attention.
[08:44.710 --> 08:48.010] [SPEAKER_05]: I think maybe there were a total of ten people on the floor.
[08:48.230 --> 08:50.250] [SPEAKER_05]: And of those, five of them were on their cell phones.
[08:50.570 --> 08:55.510] [SPEAKER_05]: So nobody's really paying attention to what's being read when the person is groaning on and on.
[08:58.730 --> 09:02.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Not even when they know that there's a gallery of the people they work for watching them.
[09:03.970 --> 09:05.050] [SPEAKER_05]: No, they don't care.
[09:05.210 --> 09:08.670] [SPEAKER_05]: And in fact, the gallery only had about five or six people at that point.
[09:08.990 --> 09:12.170] [SPEAKER_05]: This was actually in the evening on Monday.
[09:12.690 --> 09:14.330] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not sure how...
[09:14.330 --> 09:17.830] [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't one of the most contentious appearances.
[09:18.490 --> 09:22.770] [SPEAKER_05]: But it was a full House meeting and a full Senate meeting.
[09:23.190 --> 09:28.670] [SPEAKER_05]: It was kind of cool to go to the Senate and see all these senators just coming out.
[09:28.670 --> 09:31.290] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we saw Bernie Sanders, and they were voting.
[09:31.470 --> 09:32.230] [SPEAKER_05]: They were voting on something.
[09:32.350 --> 09:33.730] [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't sure what they were voting on.
[09:34.050 --> 09:39.770] [SPEAKER_05]: But you remember when McCain gave the thumbs down to getting rid of Obamacare?
[09:40.070 --> 09:41.590] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's how the senators vote.
[09:41.750 --> 09:42.930] [SPEAKER_05]: They did thumbs up, thumbs down.
[09:42.930 --> 09:48.650] [SPEAKER_05]: Some of them open up the door and just hold up their thumbs, up or down.
[09:49.090 --> 09:50.550] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's it.
[09:50.590 --> 09:51.270] [SPEAKER_05]: And then they leave.
[09:51.430 --> 09:53.150] [SPEAKER_05]: And their vote is recorded that way.
[09:53.670 --> 09:56.030] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of weirdness going on in Washington.
[09:56.750 --> 10:01.190] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's kind of charming in some ways, kind of disturbing in others.
[10:07.380 --> 10:10.140] [SPEAKER_05]: And by the way, speaking of Amtrak, we took the auto train.
[10:10.140 --> 10:14.960] [SPEAKER_05]: But we put our car on a train both ways down to Florida.
[10:17.720 --> 10:19.020] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's how we got around.
[10:21.540 --> 10:23.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Do I hear someone else in the car with you?
[10:23.660 --> 10:26.300] [SPEAKER_04]: Or is that an AI of some sort?
[10:27.680 --> 10:28.740] [SPEAKER_05]: That's the ways, lady.
[10:28.960 --> 10:30.340] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, she's trying to get me killed.
[10:31.540 --> 10:34.380] [SPEAKER_05]: Several times she's told me to make a left turn on a divided highway.
[10:34.740 --> 10:36.100] [SPEAKER_05]: And it has not backed down.
[10:36.680 --> 10:39.380] [SPEAKER_05]: So I can't really take her that seriously.
[10:39.520 --> 10:41.920] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm trying to follow her advice now.
[10:45.380 --> 10:47.300] [SPEAKER_04]: A highway divided cannot stand.
[10:48.600 --> 10:50.940] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we'd like to talk about a little bit of news.
[10:51.160 --> 10:55.320] [SPEAKER_04]: There was something that caught our eye in this household this past week.
[10:55.460 --> 10:57.880] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is upcoming entertainment.
[10:58.180 --> 11:02.380] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't talk a lot on this program about upcoming TV, movies, that sort of thing.
[11:02.380 --> 11:06.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Although, that's an interest I think we all share to various degrees.
[11:06.960 --> 11:13.980] [SPEAKER_04]: And there is a show that is being produced by the TV manufacturer, TCL.
[11:14.540 --> 11:16.400] [SPEAKER_01]: As in the people who made our TV?
[11:16.880 --> 11:18.760] [SPEAKER_04]: As in, if you want to dox us like that.
[11:19.240 --> 11:24.980] [SPEAKER_04]: But the TCL manufacturer has their own video concern.
[11:24.980 --> 11:29.820] [SPEAKER_04]: Because you can't do anything today without having your own little video streaming channel.
[11:30.040 --> 11:33.080] [SPEAKER_04]: And begging people to install it on their smart TVs.
[11:33.760 --> 11:36.200] [SPEAKER_04]: And TCL has their own one called TCL+.
[11:36.200 --> 11:40.960] [SPEAKER_04]: And TCL+, you know, there's various things on that channel.
[11:41.100 --> 11:46.840] [SPEAKER_04]: But one thing that's got a lot of people talking this week is a show called Next Stop Paris.
[11:48.300 --> 11:48.680] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, Gila.
[11:48.880 --> 11:49.200] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Rob.
[11:49.380 --> 11:52.740] [SPEAKER_04]: If you hear about a show called Next Stop Paris, what do you think it's about?
[11:52.740 --> 12:00.660] [SPEAKER_01]: I would assume it's about people traveling around Europe.
[12:00.660 --> 12:02.920] [SPEAKER_01]: I would guess it's kind of like the love boat.
[12:03.780 --> 12:05.640] [SPEAKER_01]: Except maybe on a train.
[12:06.360 --> 12:09.160] [SPEAKER_04]: And what kind of writers would you expect to work on such a production?
[12:11.040 --> 12:12.280] [SPEAKER_01]: Television writers.
[12:13.220 --> 12:14.860] [SPEAKER_01]: Human television writers.
[12:15.480 --> 12:18.860] [SPEAKER_04]: See, now, that's where this all falls apart.
[12:18.860 --> 12:21.500] [SPEAKER_04]: Because this show is made by AI.
[12:21.940 --> 12:22.480] [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what?
[12:22.740 --> 12:28.320] [SPEAKER_04]: It's produced via use of Spicy Autocomplete.
[12:28.600 --> 12:32.280] [SPEAKER_04]: And there is a trailer online that's kind of Uncanny Valley.
[12:32.340 --> 12:35.100] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to play it, but it's kind of going all over the place.
[12:36.600 --> 12:38.640] [SPEAKER_04]: The lip syncing is widely off.
[12:39.120 --> 12:40.660] [SPEAKER_04]: 404 Media reported about this.
[12:40.800 --> 12:41.880] [SPEAKER_04]: The scenes are not detailed.
[12:42.040 --> 12:43.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Walking animations don't work properly.
[12:43.920 --> 12:45.560] [SPEAKER_04]: People and environments warp constantly.
[12:46.620 --> 12:48.500] [SPEAKER_04]: This is an AI TV show.
[12:49.420 --> 12:50.320] [SPEAKER_01]: Wait a second, though.
[12:50.400 --> 12:51.940] [SPEAKER_01]: And I actually am curious about this.
[12:52.660 --> 12:56.700] [SPEAKER_01]: So, TCL Plus is a fast channel, I'm assuming.
[12:56.980 --> 12:57.420] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[12:57.500 --> 12:58.440] [SPEAKER_01]: Free ad-supported television.
[12:58.620 --> 13:00.140] [SPEAKER_04]: TCL TV Plus, yes.
[13:00.300 --> 13:01.540] [SPEAKER_01]: TCL TV Plus, excuse me.
[13:01.920 --> 13:02.340] [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me.
[13:02.360 --> 13:03.200] [SPEAKER_01]: Is a fast channel.
[13:03.460 --> 13:03.660] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[13:03.660 --> 13:16.180] [SPEAKER_01]: But, wasn't one of the things that came out of the writers' strike, the resolution of the WGA strike, was that you can't create a TV show without human writers?
[13:16.720 --> 13:17.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, isn't that a rule?
[13:18.660 --> 13:22.260] [SPEAKER_01]: So, is TCL TV doing a non-union production?
[13:22.260 --> 13:23.460] [SPEAKER_01]: I have so many questions.
[13:24.280 --> 13:25.160] [SPEAKER_04]: It's unclear.
[13:26.040 --> 13:32.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Chris Regina, the chief content officer for TCL, because every company that builds appliances for a living needs a chief content officer.
[13:32.860 --> 13:33.160] [SPEAKER_01]: Naturally.
[13:34.280 --> 13:36.600] [SPEAKER_04]: He says, we're not looking to replace people.
[13:36.600 --> 13:38.000] [SPEAKER_04]: This is still very much a human practice.
[13:38.260 --> 13:39.180] [SPEAKER_04]: We're using writers.
[13:39.360 --> 13:40.460] [SPEAKER_04]: We're using actors and animators.
[13:40.720 --> 13:44.840] [SPEAKER_04]: We've been really fortunate to find a lot of great talent out there who weren't working that have become part of our team.
[13:45.180 --> 13:48.120] [SPEAKER_04]: But, this thing seems like they're cutting many corners.
[13:48.300 --> 13:49.360] [SPEAKER_04]: They're using AI to do it.
[13:49.360 --> 13:53.980] [SPEAKER_04]: And, if this is the future of entertainment, it's kind of depressing.
[13:54.980 --> 13:57.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Alex, you were kind of shaking your head at this.
[13:57.720 --> 13:58.860] [SPEAKER_04]: What are your thoughts on this?
[14:00.480 --> 14:08.160] [SPEAKER_03]: The whole thing seems kind of ridiculous in so many ways and a harbinger of things to come.
[14:08.440 --> 14:12.740] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, as you like calling it, this kind of spicy autocomplete, right?
[14:12.740 --> 14:32.740] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it doesn't sit well with me, the idea that artificial intelligence can ingest things that happened before and make some kind of recommendation about what would be appealing or creative to human beings in terms of consumption of something new.
[14:33.200 --> 14:51.400] [SPEAKER_03]: It feels like the creative capacity of our species is being usurped in a lot of ways by something that we're mistaking for intelligence, but yet is entirely artificial, right?
[14:51.440 --> 14:56.800] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we forget about that adjective in front of the noun, right?
[14:56.880 --> 14:57.900] [SPEAKER_03]: That is artificial.
[14:57.900 --> 14:58.940] [SPEAKER_03]: It's fake.
[14:59.080 --> 15:00.280] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't really...
[15:00.800 --> 15:03.900] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have all the characteristics of human intelligence.
[15:04.100 --> 15:05.560] [SPEAKER_03]: Human intelligence is real.
[15:06.060 --> 15:15.240] [SPEAKER_03]: Artificial intelligence is basically putting a bunch of things in a blender and spitting it back out on the basis of statistical probabilities.
[15:16.540 --> 15:33.520] [SPEAKER_03]: And that just seems to me like if we rely on it too much, it's going to sap us or rob us of our creative capacities and abilities in the future, just as I think smartphones have made us dumber people.
[15:36.560 --> 15:39.860] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's a fair way to put it.
[15:41.460 --> 15:43.060] [SPEAKER_04]: We are not going to put...
[15:43.060 --> 15:43.580] [SPEAKER_05]: Can I just...
[15:43.580 --> 15:44.320] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Al.
[15:44.460 --> 15:44.960] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Amanda.
[15:45.900 --> 15:51.080] [SPEAKER_05]: You're saying, you know, that it doesn't have the attributes of human intelligence.
[15:51.620 --> 15:57.560] [SPEAKER_05]: But can we really say that about a lot of what's on TV these days, particularly the so-called reality shows?
[15:57.560 --> 16:00.000] [SPEAKER_05]: Because, I mean, you know, occasionally...
[16:00.000 --> 16:05.420] [SPEAKER_05]: This is one thing that I've learned from staying in cheap hotels all across the country over the last couple of weeks.
[16:05.800 --> 16:08.800] [SPEAKER_05]: But, boy, there's a lot of crap on TV and radio.
[16:09.380 --> 16:14.280] [SPEAKER_05]: But the things that pass for entertainment these days, they're just...
[16:14.280 --> 16:17.420] [SPEAKER_05]: You would think that the same person wrote them all.
[16:17.420 --> 16:20.020] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there is nothing cutting-edge.
[16:20.180 --> 16:23.460] [SPEAKER_05]: There is nothing but much of a semblance of intelligence.
[16:24.040 --> 16:37.480] [SPEAKER_05]: It's basically the same shock value, the same type of some daytime judge telling people things that they listen to for some reason, or some, quote-unquote, shocking talk show.
[16:38.220 --> 16:43.780] [SPEAKER_05]: There are good things, obviously, in the media, as in all media, even social media.
[16:44.900 --> 16:49.660] [SPEAKER_05]: But, boy, yeah, the artificial intelligence thing is a problem.
[16:50.180 --> 16:59.180] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think it's our lower standards that's really the problem, where we can actually be fooled into accepting something that's not even human.
[17:00.680 --> 17:04.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, a lot of us on this program have worked in various creative capacities.
[17:05.720 --> 17:22.300] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, even the stuff that kind of gets churned out, like you're talking about, that doesn't seem to have a soul behind it, that at some point, you know, a movie or a TV show that is lousy, low effort, whatever, there are still people who put that together and maybe got something back for their efforts.
[17:22.640 --> 17:31.680] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing that it reminded me of when we were first talking about this was last year we were visiting family, and we were hanging out with a couple of little children.
[17:32.800 --> 17:42.880] [SPEAKER_01]: And being told knock-knock jokes by a three-year-old is what I was reminded of when I was thinking about AI-produced TV, right?
[17:42.960 --> 17:45.600] [SPEAKER_01]: A three-year-old came up to me and said, knock-knock.
[17:45.760 --> 17:47.660] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, who's there?
[17:47.840 --> 17:49.820] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, necklace.
[17:50.500 --> 17:52.040] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, necklace who?
[17:52.280 --> 17:53.880] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, teeth.
[17:54.700 --> 18:06.180] [SPEAKER_01]: Because she knew that a knock-knock joke was you said knock-knock, and they said who's there, and you said something, and then something back, and then you said a third thing, and then everybody laughed, and that was how it worked.
[18:06.920 --> 18:10.580] [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't make any sense, but that was the formula.
[18:11.340 --> 18:13.640] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is the kind of sense that I...
[18:13.640 --> 18:17.800] [SPEAKER_01]: Even we're just watching the trailer on silent, and that's what's going on.
[18:18.000 --> 18:18.580] [SPEAKER_01]: This is...
[18:19.980 --> 18:25.300] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm willing to out myself as a bit of a rom-com aficionado, and boy, this is not it.
[18:26.320 --> 18:31.240] [SPEAKER_01]: This is utterly terrifying and soulless, and I haven't even heard the dialogue yet.
[18:31.440 --> 18:38.760] [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I think it's very telling that the TCL TV Plus YouTube channel where this is hosted has turned off the comments.
[18:38.760 --> 18:39.060] [SPEAKER_01]: It's...
[18:39.060 --> 18:49.440] [SPEAKER_04]: Not only have they turned off the comments, the video seems to, by the stats on the YouTube here, it has 106,000 views, and only 235 people have clicked thumbs up on it.
[18:49.620 --> 18:53.060] [SPEAKER_01]: I am curious how many people have clicked thumbs down on it, but I think you can hide that stat.
[18:53.400 --> 18:53.580] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[18:56.060 --> 18:56.460] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[18:57.000 --> 19:06.660] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, if I can steer the ship in a different direction, this is something that I want to discuss, and I particularly like to hear Alex's view on this.
[19:06.660 --> 19:15.920] [SPEAKER_05]: But we recently have had a lot of activity with the Surveillance Act, I believe is what it's called, 702.
[19:18.740 --> 19:42.760] [SPEAKER_05]: And not the most recent action, but a fairly recent action, involved the former president, former President Trump, stepping into the scene, you know, basically to his Republican reports that he wanted this bill to die.
[19:42.940 --> 19:43.880] [SPEAKER_05]: He wanted the surveillance...
[19:45.320 --> 19:47.220] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry, Ray's is going crazy now.
[19:51.760 --> 19:55.180] [SPEAKER_05]: ...to step in and kill the bill because...
[19:55.720 --> 19:56.420] [SPEAKER_05]: Completely wrong.
[19:56.500 --> 19:57.280] [SPEAKER_05]: It was not used against him.
[19:58.400 --> 20:13.600] [SPEAKER_05]: But basically, what I've seen as a result of that are people, normally intelligent people, thinking that Trump understands surveillance better than Biden because Trump wanted to kill this bill, and Biden did not.
[20:14.540 --> 20:15.440] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[20:15.740 --> 20:26.200] [SPEAKER_05]: I've seen people like Edward Snowden posting things saying, we have to get Biden out of office, not caring that getting Biden out of office would bring Trump into office because of this one issue.
[20:26.200 --> 20:35.040] [SPEAKER_05]: And it really bothers me to see people falling for that, because I can guarantee you, Trump does not care about your rights being violated.
[20:35.640 --> 20:41.160] [SPEAKER_05]: He certainly does not understand how surveillance works, what is needed, what is not needed.
[20:42.500 --> 20:44.800] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just wondering, Alex, if you have any feelings on this.
[20:46.660 --> 20:48.980] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do have a lot of feelings on it.
[20:49.760 --> 20:55.940] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really a totally crazy and ridiculous situation we have here.
[20:56.880 --> 21:04.880] [SPEAKER_03]: with Trump essentially being what's likely on the right side of the issue, but probably for all of the wrong reasons.
[21:05.480 --> 21:18.260] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, it seems as if he may be on the right side of the issue because he's been laboring under an erroneous assumption that this was actually used against him.
[21:18.440 --> 21:39.940] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, what he's referencing is an FBI investigation into one of his close campaign associates by the name of Carter Page, and the FISA statute was actually utilized to engage in judicially supervised surveillance, as I understand it, of Carter Page.
[21:40.160 --> 22:02.660] [SPEAKER_03]: If you recall correctly, back in 2016, this bizarre character who was very much pro-Trump and going around and preaching Trump's gospel, so to speak, was very closely connected with oligarchs in Russia, and Russia himself, and the FISA statute, which stands for the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act,
[22:03.460 --> 22:22.100] [SPEAKER_03]: was utilized in that, I believe, an FBI official made some kind of declaration under oath, and then the Department of Justice went to the FISC, or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, and they made an application to a judge of that court.
[22:22.260 --> 22:25.780] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds a little crazy, but it's like a secret court.
[22:26.000 --> 22:44.360] [SPEAKER_03]: And the judge had then authorized a warrant to surveil Carter Page, an American citizen, because they believed that there was reason to believe, there was probable cause to find that Carter Page was the agent of a foreign power.
[22:44.720 --> 22:50.060] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is there for.
[22:50.500 --> 23:02.840] [SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, if we recall correctly, Emmanuel, you probably remember this, Project Minaret, and things like that, where there was this warrantless surveillance of many U.S.
[23:03.220 --> 23:17.340] [SPEAKER_03]: citizens, and electronic communications were being monitored by the government, and it was being used to monitor activists during the Vietnam War, and Martin Luther King, and Muhammad Ali, and there were, you know, a bunch of notables that were essentially placed on watch lists.
[23:17.580 --> 23:21.320] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was considered to be very anti-American at the time.
[23:21.380 --> 23:31.800] [SPEAKER_03]: And so something called the Church Commission was started, and the Church Commission, which was started by Senator, I believe it was Frank Church, Senator Church, I can't remember the first name, I think it was Frank Church.
[23:32.140 --> 23:40.860] [SPEAKER_03]: In any event, at the end of the Church Commission, they decided that if there is going to be some kind of foreign intelligence type of surveillance of U.S.
[23:41.340 --> 23:43.440] [SPEAKER_03]: citizens, it needs to be done according to law.
[23:43.700 --> 23:47.620] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what the FISA Act, that's where the FISA Act came from.
[23:47.920 --> 23:57.560] [SPEAKER_03]: So FISA created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and required some kind of judicial supervision of this type of activity.
[23:57.840 --> 24:00.440] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's what happened with Carter Page.
[24:00.760 --> 24:06.700] [SPEAKER_03]: There was an actual warrant that was issued to surveil him because he was thought to have been the agent of a foreign power.
[24:07.020 --> 24:15.020] [SPEAKER_03]: Trump didn't like that, that one of his associates was suspected to have direct links with Russia and even the judiciary had agreed with that.
[24:15.340 --> 24:18.980] [SPEAKER_03]: So he just doesn't like FISA in general.
[24:19.680 --> 24:41.600] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, that's totally different than Section 702, because Section 702 of FISA, which is going to be reauthorized, or I believe, I think it passed the House at this point, but 702 pertains to this warrantless type of program, where in order to collect intelligence abroad,
[24:42.160 --> 24:45.720] [SPEAKER_03]: and remember, the Constitution only applies to United States citizens.
[24:45.840 --> 24:47.100] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't apply to everybody else.
[24:47.100 --> 25:03.260] [SPEAKER_03]: People that are abroad are legitimate targets of foreign intelligence collection, whether you're in the United Kingdom, whether you're in Russia, whether you're in Saudi Arabia, if you are a foreign national, you can be the target of foreign intelligence collection by the United States intelligence community.
[25:03.600 --> 25:05.700] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just a simple fact.
[25:05.880 --> 25:09.940] [SPEAKER_03]: The Constitution doesn't protect people in Saudi Arabia, for example.
[25:10.300 --> 25:26.520] [SPEAKER_03]: So Section 702 authorizes the government to essentially hoover up a huge amount of communications from all around the globe in the name of collecting intelligence on foreign citizens and foreign governments and foreign signals intelligence and things like that.
[25:26.800 --> 25:32.680] [SPEAKER_03]: But in so doing, you incidentally collect a bunch of intelligence on American citizens.
[25:32.900 --> 25:37.620] [SPEAKER_03]: And so Section 702 is about, well, what can the government do?
[25:37.780 --> 25:40.280] [SPEAKER_03]: How can they access that particular information?
[25:40.620 --> 26:05.480] [SPEAKER_03]: And the amendments under, I believe, the SAFE Act of Section 702 were intended to put some kind of greater sense of guardrails around that, so that just like a FISA warrant that was issued against Carter Page, that you would have to go to a judge in order to access that repository of data that was hoovered up ostensibly to collect intelligence on foreign nationals,
[26:05.620 --> 26:10.400] [SPEAKER_03]: but has actually wound up collecting intelligence, incidentally, on American citizens.
[26:10.580 --> 26:18.480] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you want to access that with respect to an American citizen and American citizens' data, it would make sense that you would need to have some kind of judicial supervision.
[26:18.480 --> 26:20.700] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's what Trump is against.
[26:20.700 --> 26:26.300] [SPEAKER_03]: He's against the reauthorization of Section 702, which allows that program to exist.
[26:26.680 --> 26:35.040] [SPEAKER_03]: So in a sense, you know, if you're a privacy advocate or a civil libertarian, it seems like Trump is on the right side of the issues.
[26:35.260 --> 26:38.040] [SPEAKER_03]: But his rationale is totally screwed up.
[26:38.420 --> 26:56.300] [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that I think is really worth mentioning, and then I'll stop my diatribe after this, is that as I understand it, the Speaker of the House went down to Mar-a-Lago and spoke with Trump about this and said, hey, can we get you on side to kind of reauthorize this at least for a little bit?
[26:56.680 --> 27:05.580] [SPEAKER_03]: And we won't reauthorize it for another five years or so, but what we'll do is we'll have it sunset in two years.
[27:05.740 --> 27:12.080] [SPEAKER_03]: And at that point, it can be reviewed, revised, and the issue can come up again.
[27:12.240 --> 27:17.880] [SPEAKER_03]: And whatever administration is in power at that point can then make some kind of political decision about this.
[27:18.380 --> 27:23.720] [SPEAKER_03]: So he's thinking that he's going to be back in power, and this might actually benefit him.
[27:23.760 --> 27:37.520] [SPEAKER_03]: And as somebody who has promised that he's going to turn the power of the United States intelligence community and law enforcement community and the courts against his political enemies, well, Section 702 might actually come in handy.
[27:39.480 --> 27:40.740] [SPEAKER_03]: And diatribe there.
[27:41.060 --> 27:42.900] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, there's a lot to unpack.
[27:44.460 --> 27:54.120] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the whole thing about in two years, like, what would he have done in assuming he was president in two years, and this thing expired in two years?
[27:54.560 --> 27:56.060] [SPEAKER_05]: What might he have done?
[28:01.880 --> 28:03.740] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, he could have done a lot.
[28:03.900 --> 28:06.120] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he could totally abuse this, right?
[28:06.320 --> 28:11.140] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this can certainly be abused by any kind of administration.
[28:11.860 --> 28:20.260] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the amount of data that is being picked up by the intelligence community in these programs is pretty extraordinary.
[28:22.660 --> 28:25.360] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, in my opinion, it's really, you know, nothing new.
[28:25.500 --> 28:37.660] [SPEAKER_03]: I think this kind of intelligence collection can really go all the way back to even World War One, where military and diplomatic affairs were transmitted via things like telegram.
[28:38.540 --> 28:43.020] [SPEAKER_03]: And there was the precursor to the NSA was actually sitting in New York.
[28:43.180 --> 28:45.220] [SPEAKER_03]: It was called the American Black Chamber.
[28:45.540 --> 28:55.320] [SPEAKER_03]: And Western Union and the postal telegraph company used to actually allow intelligence officers to go into their offices and copy telegrams at that point.
[28:55.500 --> 29:05.580] [SPEAKER_03]: But what we're dealing with now, and this is actually something I argued in an article in The Intercept almost 10 years ago, an op-ed.
[29:05.680 --> 29:06.800] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't usually publish op-eds.
[29:06.920 --> 29:15.240] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, that we have this moral or visceral reaction to this type of surveillance, not because it's necessarily wrong.
[29:15.460 --> 29:19.500] [SPEAKER_03]: It's become par for the course in terms of how governments operate.
[29:19.640 --> 29:30.480] [SPEAKER_03]: But because it's a difference of degree in terms of how much information is being hoovered up by governments and how much information about our personal lives is out there.
[29:30.820 --> 29:37.580] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, Emmanuel, I think this is really ripe and rife for abuse.
[29:38.720 --> 29:53.300] [SPEAKER_05]: So, how do we reassure someone out there listening, who is a privacy advocate, who sees Joe Biden pushing for this, who is pushing for this, who sees Trump for whatever his reasons are, pushing against it?
[29:54.300 --> 30:02.800] [SPEAKER_05]: How do we convince somebody like that to not make a decision that could be detrimental?
[30:04.720 --> 30:11.800] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think we have to call this out for what it is.
[30:11.920 --> 30:14.600] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the Biden administration is on the wrong side of this.
[30:15.080 --> 30:29.860] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, if you're a privacy advocate and you believe in guardrails around this type of sensitive data, and especially if you're a technologist, there are easier and better ways for you to control or audit, even log, who's accessing this particular type of data.
[30:30.000 --> 30:42.160] [SPEAKER_03]: As I understand it, there were even some incidents a few years ago that may have indicated that the law enforcement community at the federal level, the FBI in particular, may have been accessing and appropriately Section 702 data.
[30:42.520 --> 30:58.380] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think maybe even putting up some technical means and measures, some security controls and enhanced auditing capabilities to ensure that this type of data is not being abused or misused and and making that data transparent would be the way to go forward.
[30:58.660 --> 31:12.960] [SPEAKER_03]: The Biden administration seems to think that virtually unfettered access to this type of data without transparency or some kind of audit trail like that is the way to go because of the exigent needs of the intelligence and law enforcement community.
[31:14.120 --> 31:17.040] [SPEAKER_03]: And and for us, those are arguments that we don't buy.
[31:17.120 --> 31:24.880] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's perfectly fine to say we may not agree with everything Joe Biden says or does, but Trump is going about this for the wrong reasons.
[31:25.040 --> 31:27.120] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's totally mistaken.
[31:27.340 --> 31:32.580] [SPEAKER_03]: He's he's blundering the whole argument as he does with everything that requires nuance or intelligence.
[31:33.460 --> 31:41.440] [SPEAKER_03]: And if he's back in power, this is something that he will undoubtedly abuse when it comes up for reauthorization.
[31:44.490 --> 31:49.250] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, that's that's the conversation I wanted to have on on this particular matter.
[31:50.010 --> 31:54.530] [SPEAKER_05]: Right now, I'm focusing on crossing the George Washington grid without closing any chaos.
[31:54.530 --> 31:57.630] [SPEAKER_05]: So, Bob Gila, any any thoughts on this?
[31:58.370 --> 32:07.090] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess my first question is, is there anyone who is a one issue voter on this?
[32:07.870 --> 32:09.330] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess is my question.
[32:09.970 --> 32:17.930] [SPEAKER_01]: And I admittedly don't know enough of the background or the issues at hand.
[32:18.570 --> 32:25.710] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, if Alex thinks the Biden administration is on the wrong side of this one, that's enough for me, that works, I'll take that.
[32:26.210 --> 32:37.930] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, is anybody a one issue voter on this to the point where they're willing to vote for not Biden in the presidential election?
[32:38.590 --> 32:41.050] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of this, I guess would be my question.
[32:43.530 --> 32:46.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there are one issue voters on all sorts of things.
[32:46.830 --> 32:49.130] [SPEAKER_04]: It's an infinitely diverse world out there.
[32:50.170 --> 33:03.110] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is definitely something to keep an eye on, something to voice to those in power, if you feel one way or another about it, whatever side of the political aisle they may be on, because that's how it's all supposed to work.
[33:03.890 --> 33:05.450] [SPEAKER_04]: And, yes, Alex?
[33:06.230 --> 33:09.990] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I, you know, you mentioned the word work, right?
[33:10.110 --> 33:14.210] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and Ian, Emmanuel and Kyle were, were down in D.C.
[33:14.370 --> 33:16.150] [SPEAKER_03]: watching a sausage be made yesterday.
[33:16.370 --> 33:22.550] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, these senators, senators, and these members of the House, they, they show up for work.
[33:22.710 --> 33:45.990] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that it is unreasonable for us to expect that they do the work that we pay them to do, and that they should be willing to take up these, these issues, like, you know, some form of comprehensive privacy legislation at the federal level, that perhaps preempts the patchwork of privacy laws that we have at the state level.
[33:46.310 --> 33:48.710] [SPEAKER_03]: Not to say that, you know, they don't keep us busy as lawyers.
[33:48.870 --> 33:49.330] [SPEAKER_03]: That's great.
[33:49.610 --> 34:08.370] [SPEAKER_03]: But from a, a national standpoint, what we need to address this issue is, is not necessarily to give the president or law enforcement community brand new powers under the, to surveil American citizens without some kind of auditing or transparency or even judicial gatekeeping.
[34:08.630 --> 34:16.110] [SPEAKER_03]: What we need is Congress to act, to pass a law that covers this Section 702 data within it.
[34:16.250 --> 34:26.530] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's asking too much of our senators and our congressmen to show up every day and to address these very difficult, but yet bipartisan and critical issues.
[34:26.530 --> 34:43.230] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the fact that we're not doing this and we're lagging behind Europe in many, many years now that's had GDPR in place is starting to make America look like this is not the place of, of innovation when it comes to, to technology and, and, and, and it's not the,
[34:43.230 --> 34:49.930] [SPEAKER_03]: the forum where you want to be, uh, with respect to, um, anything that's forward-looking and innovative.
[34:50.210 --> 34:53.190] [SPEAKER_03]: So I, I think they need to get on the ball.
[34:53.430 --> 34:56.070] [SPEAKER_03]: They need to earn the salary that we're paying them.
[34:56.710 --> 35:01.130] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Alex, you're exactly right, Alex.
[35:01.390 --> 35:12.270] [SPEAKER_06]: The fact that they did not amend this and they're kicking it down the road so that it could potentially be profoundly worse in 2026 is ridiculous.
[35:12.270 --> 35:29.250] [SPEAKER_06]: I heard Mark Warner talking about this in a really mealy mouth way about how if a citizen is under cyber attack from a fishing and they're having a state actor victimize them, let us help you help that, you know, it's like, it's like a mob tactic, like,
[35:29.390 --> 35:33.210] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, the government's going to step in and save you because you got fish.
[35:33.610 --> 35:38.290] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that is a, that is a really, really thin argument.
[35:38.290 --> 35:42.890] [SPEAKER_06]: And it was really hard to believe that that's the defense of warrantlessness.
[35:43.730 --> 35:46.930] [SPEAKER_06]: Warrantlessness to me is profoundly un-American.
[35:47.210 --> 35:52.050] [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry, I keep saying profoundly, but this is a bad, bad moment to screw this up.
[35:52.150 --> 36:03.310] [SPEAKER_06]: Because I got to say, we do have a lot of need internationally to have some protections because there's a lot of messed up stuff going on from some of these governments.
[36:03.630 --> 36:07.410] [SPEAKER_06]: And we, we ought to have some capacity to investigate this.
[36:07.490 --> 36:12.890] [SPEAKER_06]: But I'm going to tell you what, the saddest part about this for me is how little communication goes on.
[36:13.150 --> 36:18.010] [SPEAKER_06]: And it has gone on and gotten progressively worse in the last 10, 20 years.
[36:18.470 --> 36:19.850] [SPEAKER_06]: We are not talking.
[36:20.070 --> 36:23.450] [SPEAKER_06]: And international friends of ours aren't talking to us.
[36:23.630 --> 36:29.270] [SPEAKER_06]: And that may be one thing for the hacker world, you know, that, and it's very sad.
[36:29.470 --> 36:33.470] [SPEAKER_06]: It's incredibly depressing to me, how little people are willing to talk.
[36:33.630 --> 36:36.250] [SPEAKER_06]: We talked about travel being difficult to get into the U.S.
[36:36.250 --> 36:37.970] [SPEAKER_06]: for other people in other parts of the world.
[36:38.330 --> 36:41.190] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they're now reluctant to communicate with us.
[36:41.350 --> 36:45.170] [SPEAKER_06]: We're doing less talking than ever with our friends overseas.
[36:45.590 --> 36:52.290] [SPEAKER_06]: And that extends to the business world and anyone else interacting with anyone from another part of the world.
[36:52.470 --> 36:54.330] [SPEAKER_06]: That is bad for commerce.
[36:54.590 --> 36:56.050] [SPEAKER_06]: That is bad for society.
[36:56.050 --> 36:59.250] [SPEAKER_06]: We are ever more connected and we need to have trust.
[36:59.430 --> 37:04.550] [SPEAKER_06]: If no one trusts us outside of the U.S., we're not an active player in the world.
[37:05.550 --> 37:10.310] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's, that's all I'm going to say, but it is really sad where we're headed with this.
[37:10.690 --> 37:13.010] [SPEAKER_06]: They have got to amend law.
[37:13.390 --> 37:14.250] [SPEAKER_06]: That's their job.
[37:17.180 --> 37:17.700] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[37:17.920 --> 37:22.960] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and, and it shouldn't be crazy to expect that they do their job.
[37:23.140 --> 37:25.540] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's, it's really, it's totally nuts.
[37:25.700 --> 37:35.160] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's an abdication of their responsibility as Congress, men and women that, that they are not doing their job, that they're not taking up this issue.
[37:35.480 --> 37:52.880] [SPEAKER_03]: And the fact that Trump is on one side of it and you have Republicans and Democrats on, on the other side of it, this is a, you know, a real bipartisan issue that I think affects people's lives is, and is fundamental to how we view the fourth amendment and our constitutional rights here.
[37:53.620 --> 38:04.200] [SPEAKER_03]: This is another issue where I think, you know, we don't necessarily have to sacrifice security for liberty here.
[38:04.360 --> 38:13.340] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we can have both if we think about it and we create and craft, you know, well thought out legislation that balances these two.
[38:13.540 --> 38:15.440] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we can have it all here.
[38:15.600 --> 38:17.320] [SPEAKER_03]: We just have to hash it out.
[38:17.480 --> 38:21.440] [SPEAKER_03]: We have to expect Congress to sit down and address these really, really difficult issues.
[38:21.720 --> 38:27.980] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's important for Congress and the Senate in particular to stand up to the Biden administration.
[38:28.480 --> 38:36.320] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and you know, senators that simply because they're Democrats don't, they shouldn't have to toe the line simply because this is something that Joe Biden wants.
[38:36.320 --> 38:54.860] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that's, it's really admirable what we've been seeing from senators like Ron Wyden, who have stood up against, uh, and have called out the president said, you know, we, he thinks this is wrong and that we should not be giving the president more powers when it comes to surveil American citizens.
[38:54.860 --> 39:02.360] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's, I think it's absolutely wonderful when we see dissent amongst the party pushing back against the president.
[39:02.500 --> 39:09.320] [SPEAKER_03]: That tells me that democracy is at work here and that we can, uh, talk and debate these issues.
[39:09.580 --> 39:14.240] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, even if Trump happens to be in that debate for all the wrong blubbering idiotic reasons.
[39:15.720 --> 39:17.300] [SPEAKER_04]: Well said, well said, everyone.
[39:18.100 --> 39:20.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I want to make, uh, talking of putting in the work for stuff.
[39:20.540 --> 39:24.160] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to mention that, uh, WBAI's fund drive is ongoing.
[39:24.500 --> 39:26.740] [SPEAKER_04]: We are on, we are in a heavy situation.
[39:27.060 --> 39:31.780] [SPEAKER_04]: We owe about 200 grand and, uh, change for, in background for our transmitter.
[39:32.560 --> 39:40.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I think Reggie's report, uh, between shows just before we came on, uh, said we are at about 90, um, in our fund drive so far.
[39:40.700 --> 39:43.660] [SPEAKER_04]: So we have a long way to go and we need to get there by the end of the month.
[39:43.820 --> 40:05.280] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you go to give2wbai.org, that's give the numeral to WBAI.org, throw in what you can throw in your support, uh, help us keep doing what we do on this program, on this station, or become one of our WBAI buddies at buddy.wbai.org, where you can be part of giving us an ongoing income,
[40:05.520 --> 40:09.240] [SPEAKER_04]: which is a game changer at this station and in the nonprofit world.
[40:09.400 --> 40:11.920] [SPEAKER_01]: It is absolutely a game changer in the nonprofit world.
[40:11.920 --> 40:19.060] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would also like to remind everybody that giving to WBAI accomplishes a couple of different things.
[40:19.300 --> 40:22.040] [SPEAKER_01]: One is yes, it keeps the station on the air, which is amazing.
[40:22.200 --> 40:27.820] [SPEAKER_01]: But as a reminder, the more you give, the less we have to ask you.
[40:28.280 --> 40:30.180] [SPEAKER_01]: So everybody wins.
[40:30.560 --> 40:33.860] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it is easy to do.
[40:34.020 --> 40:42.200] [SPEAKER_01]: You can set up a recurring donation to WBAI at buddy.wbai.org.
[40:42.820 --> 40:47.240] [SPEAKER_01]: And really quite literally set it and forget it.
[40:47.480 --> 40:58.960] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, don't forget that if you donate at an aggregate level of $25 or above, you become a voting member of WBAI's station community, which is also incredibly important.
[40:59.160 --> 41:07.180] [SPEAKER_01]: One other very important thing, whether you give a one-time donation or you become a WBAI buddy, is please tell them that we sent you.
[41:08.060 --> 41:17.460] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the station needs to know that people are giving because WBAI is their favorite show or the one they're willing to spend money for.
[41:17.860 --> 41:20.740] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, there's a very handy dandy drop down menu.
[41:20.880 --> 41:29.380] [SPEAKER_01]: You can just select off the hook as your favorite show, uh, decide to become a WBAI buddy at whatever level it may be via PayPal, even.
[41:29.880 --> 41:32.920] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we would very much appreciate it.
[41:33.040 --> 41:40.080] [SPEAKER_01]: You can learn more about the buddy program at buddy.wbai.org or just in general, give2wbai.org.
[41:40.300 --> 41:44.820] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the number two, give2wbai.org.
[41:44.820 --> 41:48.300] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, there are all kinds of fun premiums that exist.
[41:48.980 --> 41:53.600] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and we would any, any little bit helps.
[41:53.680 --> 41:55.420] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, the more you give the less we ask.
[41:55.620 --> 41:57.280] [SPEAKER_01]: So everybody wins.
[41:57.420 --> 42:04.060] [SPEAKER_01]: These are completely tax deductible donations and you can write off a whole bunch on your taxes next year.
[42:04.060 --> 42:05.460] [SPEAKER_01]: If you give it to the station now.
[42:08.480 --> 42:08.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[42:12.580 --> 42:14.060] [SPEAKER_04]: So what's next for us?
[42:17.900 --> 42:18.460] [SPEAKER_05]: What do we got?
[42:18.480 --> 42:22.180] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm crossing the Washington Bridge right now at this very moment.
[42:22.360 --> 42:24.260] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a little slow, but I think we're making it through.
[42:24.800 --> 42:29.180] [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, just to reiterate what you guys said, it's so important to support community radio.
[42:29.320 --> 42:34.700] [SPEAKER_05]: When Kyle and I were driving across the country, well, I got to tell you, there's, um, there are good stations out there.
[42:34.920 --> 42:44.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we, we heard a number of community stations, uh, even NPR was a breath of fresh air, uh, in the desert of, um, of broadcasting that you find in many places.
[42:44.720 --> 42:52.200] [SPEAKER_05]: We heard one station where there's this guy literally reading grocery prices for an hour, uh, for blind people.
[42:52.340 --> 42:55.180] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a radio station for blind people that couldn't do that on their own.
[42:55.780 --> 43:03.560] [SPEAKER_05]: And, um, it was, it was, you know, not exactly my first choice of radio listening, but still it's what radio is all about.
[43:03.700 --> 43:05.260] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a public service.
[43:05.260 --> 43:07.260] [SPEAKER_05]: It's about providing something to the public.
[43:07.520 --> 43:11.000] [SPEAKER_05]: And obviously they've been doing that for a while and it resonates.
[43:11.560 --> 43:31.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, we heard a number of other stations like that, but mostly what, what we heard, um, well, of course there's AM radio, uh, where it's either, uh, religion, uh, or sports, or right wing hate radio, uh, which is basically portraying anyone that does not agree with them as the devil,
[43:31.860 --> 43:33.880] [SPEAKER_05]: uh, or a communist or whatever.
[43:34.560 --> 43:36.060] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, doesn't matter what the facts are.
[43:36.800 --> 43:38.420] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and people believe this.
[43:38.520 --> 43:47.640] [SPEAKER_05]: I, I really believe that people themselves are not, um, uh, racist, um, or hateful.
[43:49.160 --> 43:59.420] [SPEAKER_05]: But when they, when they hear this constantly, when it's reiterated constantly to them, it becomes the truth, becomes the fact.
[44:00.060 --> 44:05.140] [SPEAKER_05]: And that makes them make bad decisions and listen to the wrong people.
[44:06.200 --> 44:07.020] [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, that's AM radio.
[44:07.180 --> 44:13.280] [SPEAKER_05]: FM radio, well, you know, you have your usual, uh, mix of music, pretty much the same as everywhere else.
[44:13.820 --> 44:16.020] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but then there's the non-commercial band.
[44:16.240 --> 44:22.280] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, for those who don't know, below 92 on the FM dial is reserved for non-commercial stations.
[44:22.920 --> 44:29.540] [SPEAKER_05]: We're not below 92 because, well, WBAI, it's just weird how we got to be at 99.5.
[44:29.940 --> 44:31.620] [SPEAKER_05]: Different story, different time.
[44:31.860 --> 44:34.360] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll, we'll tell that story again in the future.
[44:34.980 --> 44:48.720] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but what we found below 92, instead of college stations, instead of commercial stations, uh, I'm sorry, non-commercial, um, uh, stations like NPR or Pacifica, we found so many religious stations.
[44:49.020 --> 44:55.500] [SPEAKER_05]: And since religious stations are exempt from tax, they qualify to be below 92.
[44:56.000 --> 45:00.200] [SPEAKER_05]: This was a problem, uh, years ago when it began.
[45:00.600 --> 45:08.160] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a lot more of a problem now because I would say nine out of 10 stations below 92 in various parts of the country are religious.
[45:08.880 --> 45:19.260] [SPEAKER_05]: And that means, that means that a lot of commercial, uh, non-commercial stations or college stations that might exist are silent.
[45:19.640 --> 45:26.580] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't exist because those frequencies are taken up by non-commercial, quote unquote, non-commercial Christian stations.
[45:27.600 --> 45:36.580] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, um, and when you listen to them, um, they're touting the same right-wing hate line that you'll hear on those AM stations.
[45:37.420 --> 45:45.700] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's, it's basically, it sounds like a commercial station, except they don't have commercials because their product is religion.
[45:45.980 --> 45:47.840] [SPEAKER_05]: And somehow that makes a difference.
[45:48.420 --> 45:49.240] [SPEAKER_05]: It's sad.
[45:51.480 --> 46:14.000] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, as a, as a corollary to that in our discussion, uh, Emmanuel, one thing that comes to my mind, and I know we've talked about this a couple of years ago during a fundraiser, but the idea that WBAI exists on a radio station itself, and not just the Internet,
[46:14.000 --> 46:38.800] [SPEAKER_03]: not just a podcast, the fact that this show is, is live on the air is, I, I think it's something that, that privacy advocates should really take note of as well, because if you think about radio itself, it's so incredibly different as a, as a way of spreading information and getting information out than any other electronic form of communication with which we've become,
[46:39.480 --> 46:48.360] [SPEAKER_03]: uh, accustomed these days, because anybody who has a radio can just turn it on and listen to the airwaves that are coming into their house.
[46:48.500 --> 46:54.120] [SPEAKER_03]: You're tuning into a certain frequency, a radio frequency that doesn't require some kind of acknowledgement.
[46:54.120 --> 46:55.280] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no handshake.
[46:55.420 --> 46:56.560] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no IP address.
[46:56.900 --> 47:14.520] [SPEAKER_03]: This type of information, this type of chatter, if you value privacy, if you are a privacy advocate, a civil libertarian, you don't want this type of medium to go away because then all forms of information receipt are going to be logged and audited and viewable by somebody else,
[47:14.560 --> 47:24.980] [SPEAKER_03]: that there will be a record in some log file somewhere that your IP address accessed a particular website at this date and time and downloaded this HTML file or viewed this information.
[47:24.980 --> 47:26.500] [SPEAKER_03]: With radio, you don't have that.
[47:26.800 --> 47:43.280] [SPEAKER_03]: You turn it on and you can be listening to, uh, country music, WQXR, classical stations, you can be listening to subversive radio talking about hackers and the societal ramifications of information technology at 7pm on off the hook.
[47:43.480 --> 47:44.800] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't matter.
[47:44.940 --> 47:46.240] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no receipt of it.
[47:46.420 --> 48:06.800] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think in this era where we may very well be creeping up to a second term of the Trump presidency, where our values, when it comes to privacy, are going to be really stretched to the limit and put to the test and, and resistance is going to become critical once again,
[48:07.220 --> 48:11.100] [SPEAKER_03]: that radio is going to play a very, very large part.
[48:11.240 --> 48:13.340] [SPEAKER_03]: And if we lose it, it will never come back.
[48:13.480 --> 48:17.980] [SPEAKER_03]: You should think about that when considering whether to support WBAI.
[48:18.460 --> 48:19.020] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[48:19.020 --> 48:25.480] [SPEAKER_04]: In this era where everything seems like it's, uh, it's going downward, it's, it's, uh, you know, scary things are happening.
[48:25.780 --> 48:33.240] [SPEAKER_04]: And the, the continued existence of a medium like radio, in fact, radio, because there are no other media like radio in the modern world.
[48:33.540 --> 48:41.940] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, even your television is telling, you know, 47,000 different companies what you're watching when you're watching it, but radio is there and radio has a place.
[48:42.120 --> 48:48.600] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, you could keep us doing what we do here at WBAI by going to give2wbai.org or buddy.
[48:49.680 --> 48:50.620] [SPEAKER_04]: WBAI.org.
[48:50.780 --> 48:55.380] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I want to thank the listener who sent us an email, uh, showing us their donation receipt.
[48:55.600 --> 48:59.240] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, they didn't sign this, so I won't read their name, but, uh, it's a good evening off the hook.
[48:59.340 --> 49:01.140] [SPEAKER_04]: I donated to the WBAI tower fund.
[49:01.240 --> 49:02.900] [SPEAKER_04]: I selected off the hook as my favorite show.
[49:03.380 --> 49:08.180] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, they go on to say, this is in addition to my continuing to be a WBAI buddy for off the hook.
[49:08.520 --> 49:16.700] [SPEAKER_04]: This, this superstar, and you know who you are, um, out there listening, um, is already a buddy and made an additional donation to the tower fund.
[49:17.040 --> 49:24.260] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, it's stuff like that, that keeps us going, that, uh, also just keeps us, I think, feeling really, really good about what we do here.
[49:24.260 --> 49:25.900] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it warms our collective hearts.
[49:26.080 --> 49:26.900] [SPEAKER_04]: It really does.
[49:27.120 --> 49:43.820] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, we could be sitting here, we're talking to each other, we're talking into the world, but knowing that what we are saying is reaching people and people appreciate it and want to help us keep doing it, both the us on this particular show and the greater us of the WBAI community,
[49:43.820 --> 49:47.220] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really, really touching.
[49:47.740 --> 49:48.520] [SPEAKER_04]: It is.
[49:48.720 --> 49:53.120] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, we will not be doing Off The Hook Overtime tonight, uh, that will return in a future installment.
[49:53.380 --> 49:54.740] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not on next week either.
[49:55.000 --> 49:56.440] [SPEAKER_04]: We are, uh, taking a break next week.
[49:56.560 --> 50:00.340] [SPEAKER_04]: We will be back the first week of, uh, May.
[50:00.720 --> 50:03.040] [SPEAKER_04]: That's, uh, May, May the 1st, these Wednesdays.
[50:03.200 --> 50:03.500] [SPEAKER_01]: Good heavens.
[50:03.760 --> 50:04.520] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, already.
[50:04.800 --> 50:09.720] [SPEAKER_04]: But, uh, send us email at oth@2600.com.
[50:09.960 --> 50:13.320] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, find us on Mastodon off the hook at hackers.town.
[50:13.560 --> 50:19.000] [SPEAKER_04]: We are still on Twitter at hacker radio show for the, uh, three or four people who are still paying attention there.
[50:19.900 --> 50:29.860] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, since we will not, uh, since we will not be, uh, around for a couple of weeks, you know, maybe check out the back catalog a little, maybe check out some other stuff here on WBAI.
[50:30.340 --> 50:32.880] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, as we, as we keep doing what we do.
[50:33.960 --> 50:39.960] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, I also want to thank the, uh, submitter of the music that will be closing the show.
[50:40.080 --> 50:41.500] [SPEAKER_04]: This is Jason Didner.
[50:42.040 --> 50:49.840] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I have invited folks over on Mastodon to submit songs, music that they make to, uh, to be our closing theme.
[50:50.420 --> 50:52.260] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, we've gotten some really good stuff.
[50:52.380 --> 50:55.200] [SPEAKER_04]: We got, uh, we got one for last time we were on, we got one for this time.
[50:55.520 --> 51:01.340] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you are a musician, we know there are a lot of creative people out there in the WBAI fam and the off the hook fam.
[51:02.600 --> 51:03.360] [SPEAKER_04]: Let us know.
[51:03.700 --> 51:07.860] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, if you'd like to share some music with our listeners, we'll check it out.
[51:09.320 --> 51:14.040] [SPEAKER_04]: This is disinformation overload by Jason Didner for off the hook.
[51:14.040 --> 51:15.160] [SPEAKER_04]: This has been Rob T. Firefly.
[51:15.940 --> 51:16.860] [SPEAKER_04]: Have a very good night.
[51:16.980 --> 51:17.620] [SPEAKER_04]: Very good week.